From vcomic at speed.sender.com Sat Dec 1 02:11:24 2001 From: vcomic at speed.sender.com (vcomic at speed.sender.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 02:11:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Цʱ 12-3 Message-ID: <200112011011.CAA26106@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 19509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at optymalni.com Sat Dec 1 02:30:28 2001 From: adam at optymalni.com (Adam: Kurzawa) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 05:30:28 -0500 Subject: 256 Bit Encryption for Secure Email and Secure Online File Storage Message-ID: <000401c17a53$321cff80$5a01a8c0@adam> Hey, I don't know how many of you have seen this? But here it is anyway, what do you guys think? CryptoHeaven is a new, secure online service released by CryptoHeaven Development Team. The product is intended for individuals in need of security and privacy working together in small groups. CryptoHeaven is the only secure online system currently integrating secure email, secure instant messaging (with multi party support), secure online file storage & file sharing in one unique package. Our services are available over the internet from anywhere, anytime. Automatic key and contact management ensures you can use your account from any computer connected to the internet. An easy to use, integrated user interface capable of running on most current computers ensures that all services are always available, regardless of where you may be. Your privacy is at all times protected with the highest level cryptography available: 256 bit symmetric key and 2048-4096 bit asymmetric keys. The level of security offered is unmatched in the industry. Free and premium accounts are available. Take it for a test drive and invite your friends to try it too. CryptoHeaven is confident in its system, and as such we release the source code to any interested party for a review, free of charge. http://www.cryptoheaven.com From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sat Dec 1 08:18:45 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 08:18:45 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <6DBE4C15-E621-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org> References: <3C06921E.23156.2672FDC@localhost> Message-ID: <3C089265.4281.4F715C7@localhost> On 30 Nov 2001, at 22:05, Petro wrote: > On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 07:53 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net > wrote: > > Even this is not a scalar. Since reputation cannot be bought > > and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is > > false. > > What makes you think a reputation cannot be bought and sold? > > Ever hear of Public Relations firms? Politicians? > > Both are in the business of buying and selling reputations. > Not exactly. You can pay a PR firm to try and help improve your reputation, but that's not the same thing a reputation pre-assembled and gift wrapped. Most likely they'll just tell you to wear more earth tones, which won't actually help. I'm surprised I've gotten so much disagreement over this, particularly since my original statement was much weaker than it could have been. For reputation to have a single well defined value it is necessary but not sufficient that there be a market in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED market. think that can happen? Reputation is essentially a kind of credential. If I've got a piece of paper that says I can speak Navajo (hypthetical, I can't really) and I sell that piece of paper, I won't lose the ability to speak Navajo, nor will the purchaser gain it. A market in such pieces of paper would be self-destructive, since knowledge that such papers are commonly bought and sold would quickly make the papers themselves worthless. George > -- > "Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are > half-wits."--Chris Klein From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 1 08:20:05 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:20:05 -0600 Subject: Slashdot | .museum TLDs are Live Message-ID: <3C090335.7534C261@ssz.com> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/01/136206.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 1 08:31:26 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:31:26 -0600 Subject: Democrats Want Nuke Plant Guards to Be Federal Workers Message-ID: <3C0905DE.A7F18F18@ssz.com> Congress should create a real federal 'militia' as directed by the Constitution, then problems like this would be moot. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011129/pl/attack_nuclear_dc_1.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: attack_nuclear_dc_1.html Type: text/html Size: 7773 bytes Desc: not available URL: From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 1 08:42:49 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:42:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201195553.00a5aeb0@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, mattd wrote: That's the first thing you have ever written that was genuinely worth reading! Keep practicing, and in three or four hundred years you could be the "GreatGreatReallyGreatGrandsonOfGomez(tM)". -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Dec 1 07:58:07 2001 From: declan at well.com (declan at well.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:58:07 -0500 Subject: Jim Bell update: "AP" author moved to Lompoc federal prison Message-ID: <20011201105807.A29317@cluebot.com> Jim Bell photos: http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/photosearch.cgi?name=jim+bell Day-by-day articles on Jim Bell's trial: http://www.cluebot.com/search.pl?topic=ap-politics --- http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,48779,00.html One of the Internet's most famous essayists is now in the same prison that once housed the most famous hacker. Jim Bell, the author of Assassination Politics, has been moved to the Lompoc ("lahm-poke"), California federal prison. It's the same place that convicted cracker Kevin Mitnick once called home. "I'm assigned out in the rec yard, the recreation yard, but there's really not much work to be done, occasionally picking up a cigarette butt or two," says Bell, who was sentenced to 10 years in prison this year for allegedly stalking federal agents. Bell says he was trying to investigate government wrongdoing. Bell describes Lompoc, located between Los Angeles and San Francisco, as "old and decrepit, and the place is corrupt and the guards are lazy." Previously, Bell was being held at the SeaTac prison near Tacoma, Washington, where his trial took place. Since he's got some time to kill, Bell has busied himself by filing civil lawsuits against people he alleges were involved in an orchestrated plot to deny him a fair trial and an unbiased, court-appointed defense counsel. So far he's targeted two judges, at least two prosecutors, and his former probation officers and defense attorneys. Bell says he hasn't had any response yet -- and is going to try to obtain a default judgment against the defendants. "I continue to remain astonished that I haven't received any answer out of my lawsuit yet. It doesn't bother me as long as I collect the money. I think I've hit a nerve." He's looking forward to "garnishment and putting liens on various people's property. If they wanted to write me a check, I'd take a check, I guess. But if they want me to go through the usual methods to collect it, I'll do that too." From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 1 11:50:15 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 11:50:15 -0800 Subject: fuel injected firearm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C08C3F7.5723.C71B2E@localhost> On 30 Nov 2001, at 11:04, Trei, Peter wrote: > 2. Liquid propellant guns (search on that term) are well > developed for artillary, but I don't know of any light > weapons which use this. LPGs are kind of neat in > howitzer type applications because (1) A tank of > propellant & a rack of projectiles takes less space > than cased solid propellant shells, so you can carry > more ammo, and (2) you can vary the propellant > from shot to shot based on emergent conditions. One > neat hack is 'time on target' in which a series of rounds > are fired in quick succession, at different elevations and > propellant load so they all arrive at the target simultaneously. > (the LPG liquid propellant does not need an added oxidizer). So far, liquid propellant guns have been far more dangerous to those firing them than to those they have been fired at. 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Plus, we supply money off coupons at lodging and other, places, because we've arranged for special treatment for you as a PathsTaken traveler. Receive future email on adventure, golf, sight-seeing, beach, dude ranch, white-water rafting and other vacation ideas from PathsTaken.com . Visit Us Today at PathsTaken.com . This E-mailing has been sent to you as a person interested in the information enclosed. If this reached you by error, or you do not wish to receive this information or type of information in the future, please click on the word REMOVE , then send and you will be taken off our list immediately. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience. This E-mail is not SPAM under the Federal Regulatory laws of the United States. This message is being sent to you in compliance with the proposed Federal Legislation for commercial e-mail (H.R.4176-SECTION 101 PARAGRAPH (e) (1) (A)) and Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress. This message is not intended for residents of WA, NV, CA, & VA. Screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. If you are a California, Nevada, Washington, or Virginia resident please follow the instructions above and you will be permanently removed from our list immediately. From ryan at bigrich.com Sat Dec 1 14:25:24 2001 From: ryan at bigrich.com (Ryan Bagwell) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:25:24 -1000 (HST) Subject: E-Mail Conformation Notice Message-ID: <200112012225.MAA03609@server.cash5.com> You or some one has siggned this e-mail address up to Recieve product and Anouncement notices Please Reply here to Confirm on follow link an the bottm to unsucribe mailto:ryan at bigrich.com http://www.e-paydayloanonline.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To be removed from this mailing list click on the link below http://www.e-paydayloanonline.com/cgi-bin/mail.cgi?cypherpunks at toad.com From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 1 12:56:43 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:56:43 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C089265.4281.4F715C7@localhost> References: <6DBE4C15-E621-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org> Message-ID: <3C08D38B.10329.103F322@localhost> -- On 1 Dec 2001, at 8:18, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > I'm surprised I've gotten so much disagreement over this, > particularly since my original statement was much weaker > than it could have been. For reputation to have a single > well defined value it is necessary but not sufficient that > there be a market in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED > market. Not so. Something has a single well defined value to its possessor without any need for it to be commoditized. For an item to have a single well defined market value it needs to be commoditized, but that is a different issue. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG U5GMQeSNlQCQl5JIYhGl4zYPDycgMVdHUxmfk+l2 4S5Ss0+J1kdE7tCI/aRLeU8oLqXOwYgyIK3jX5qqJ From adam at homeport.org Sat Dec 1 10:19:04 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:19:04 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org> Right. Now the seller has the cash, and the buyer has nothing. The seller has lost only the future value of the nym, which was presumably accounted for in the price. The seller loses no "real" reputation, because the nym can't be tied back to the is-a-person seller. The buyer, meanwhile, is out the price of the nym, and must either destroy the nym in order to ensure that the seller actually loses all that value, or accept damaged goods. So, why would a buyer agree to such a transaction, where he will remain at the mercy of the seller? Or is this 'one born every minute' economics? Adam On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 02:43:54PM -0500, Sunder wrote: | Following which the buyer posts all the signed emails between self and | seller detailing the fraudulent transaction. | | ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- | + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ | \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ | <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ | /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ | + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. | --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ | | On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: | | > Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate, | > and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message. | > | > Duh, indeed. | > | > Adam | > | > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 01:34:53PM -0500, Sunder wrote: | > | Simple. Once the buyer has the keys she issues an email saying "I'm | > | changing my keys, here's the new public key" and signs it with the old key | > | - thus proving that the nym's original message was valid, thus | > | invalidating the old one. Duh! | > | | > | | > | ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- | > | + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ | > | \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ | > | <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ | > | /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ | > | + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. | > | --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ | > | | > | On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: | > | | > | > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 12:14:13PM -0800, Wei Dai wrote: | > | > | On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:53:02PM -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: | > | > | > Even this is not a scalar. Since reputation cannot be bought | > | > | > and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is | > | > | > false. | > | > | | > | > | If you own a nym, you can easily sell its reputation. Just give the | > | > | private key to the buyer. | > | > | > | > How does the buyer ensure that I haven't kept a copy? If what I'm | > | > selling is a nym, then without the nym, I am anonymous. Adding layers | > | > of nymity for reputation with partial disclosure seems a complex and | > | > failure-prone approach. | > | > | > | > Adam | > | > | > | > -- | > | > "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." | > | > -Hume | > | > -- | > "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." | > -Hume | > | > | > -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From georgemw at speakeasy.net Sat Dec 1 13:40:13 2001 From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:40:13 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C08D38B.10329.103F322@localhost> References: <3C089265.4281.4F715C7@localhost> Message-ID: <3C08DDBD.32398.61D6795@localhost> On 1 Dec 2001, at 12:56, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > -- > On 1 Dec 2001, at 8:18, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > > I'm surprised I've gotten so much disagreement over this, > > particularly since my original statement was much weaker > > than it could have been. For reputation to have a single > > well defined value it is necessary but not sufficient that > > there be a market in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED > > market. > > Not so. > > Something has a single well defined value to its possessor > without any need for it to be commoditized. > > For an item to have a single well defined market value it > needs to be commoditized, but that is a different issue. > We're not disagreeing. By a "single" value I meant a universally agreed upon value. It's likely true that the owner of any item will have a single value that he thinks he'll be out if that item is destroyed (I can't see how there could be more than one), but unless the item is a commodity, nobody else will know for sure what that value is. George > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > U5GMQeSNlQCQl5JIYhGl4zYPDycgMVdHUxmfk+l2 > 4S5Ss0+J1kdE7tCI/aRLeU8oLqXOwYgyIK3jX5qqJ From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 1 13:46:36 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 13:46:36 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C08DDBD.32398.61D6795@localhost> Message-ID: On Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 01:40 PM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > On 1 Dec 2001, at 12:56, jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > >> -- >> On 1 Dec 2001, at 8:18, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >>> I'm surprised I've gotten so much disagreement over this, >>> particularly since my original statement was much weaker >>> than it could have been. For reputation to have a single >>> well defined value it is necessary but not sufficient that >>> there be a market in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED >>> market. >> >> Not so. >> >> Something has a single well defined value to its possessor >> without any need for it to be commoditized. >> >> For an item to have a single well defined market value it >> needs to be commoditized, but that is a different issue. >> > > We're not disagreeing. By a "single" value I meant a universally > agreed upon value. If there is a "universally agreed upon value" for something, and someone values it differently, is it still "universal"? Nope. What there may be are market-clearing prices, in various markets and at various times, but this has nothing to do with "universally agreed-upon values." --Tim May "The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat From wolf at priori.net Sat Dec 1 14:02:35 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:02:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: It's for the sake of the Chiiiiildren. Message-ID: http://www.banscrewdrivers.com "We hope that by ultimately banning the sale and use of screwdrivers, we can make the world a little bit safer, and increase compassion towards victims of screwdriver crimes and accidents." [...] -MW- From adam at homeport.org Sat Dec 1 11:05:36 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:05:36 -0500 Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and implementation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20011201140536.A27178@weathership.homeport.org> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:00:33PM -0500, Sunder wrote: | | Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400. Then | I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so | now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620. Interesting idea. I proposed something very similar in http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00313.html Raph demonstrated a bit later that the system could be forced into oscilation and had other problems, although that might have been in person, not on list. Adam -- Imminent death of the list predicted. Film already in the archives, 11/95. From morlockelloi at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 14:10:16 2001 From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:10:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: in praise of gold In-Reply-To: <200111301950.OAA04548@mail.lokmail.net> Message-ID: <20011201221016.64364.qmail@web13205.mail.yahoo.com> > Any relationship based on desperation or one partner's dysfunctional clingy > need is a complete waste of time. So if you seem to be spending a lot of time > around women who want to mash you down into a mold of some cartoonish happy- > ever-after "ideal", perhaps it's time to look at why you keep choosing and > ending up with them. If you were drawn to strong-willed independent women > instead, I can assure you that you'd be facing an entirely different spectrum > of dysfunctionality. ;) The cpunk relevance evades me, but ... The 'relationship' is a product of some need, and classifying that need as clingy or something else is arbitrary and subjective. You invent 'drawn' as something that is not-clingy-need. Semantic nonsense. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 1 14:16:51 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:16:51 -0800 Subject: Journalists to be treated as terrorists In-Reply-To: <200112012207.QAA04576@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <1ECDE1D5-E6A9-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 02:07 PM, mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote: > Can you provide a URL or a source for the quote? > >> "The President announced today that journalists working against the >> interests of the people and filing false reports will be treated as >> terrorists and subject to severe punishment." >> >> a) President Bush of the U.S.A. >> >> b) President Mugabe of Zimbabwe. >> >> c) Both of them. >> >> >> --Tim May >> "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the >> government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. > Clinton >> Which one? --Tim May From freephotos at freeteentwat.com Sat Dec 1 06:53:59 2001 From: freephotos at freeteentwat.com (freephotos at freeteentwat.com) Date: 1 Dec 2001 14:53:59 -0000 Subject: Instant messages Message-ID: <6811b87b35eb$ca2064d0$432065d2@freeteentwat.com> Get a FREE PASSWORD To our premier teen hardcore website http://www.freeteentwat.com/g1/ here's how: 1. click here http://www.freeteentwat.com/g1/ 2. fill out 3 fields of statistical info 3. get your password 4. you pay nothing! It's 100% FREE It's that fucking easy! GET YOUR FREE PASSWORD NOW http://www.freeteentwat.com/g1/ If you want us to stop sending you email then click here: http://www.freeteentwat.com/db/ From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 1 11:59:04 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:59:04 -0500 Subject: Dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202061523.00a619b0@pop.useoz.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202061523.00a619b0@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: At 6:17 AM +1100 on 12/2/01, mattd wrote: > US Office of Technology > Assessment OTA was killed by Gingrich almost as soon as it was possible for him to do so, say, 1992... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 1 12:30:09 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:30:09 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org> References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org> <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 4797 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sat Dec 1 07:05:24 2001 From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:05:24 +0100 (MET) Subject: The P2P surveillance society approaches... (fwd) Message-ID: -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:43:32 -0800 From: Jim Whitehead To: FoRK Subject: The P2P surveillance society approaches... http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~kostas/omni.html "The Page of Omnidirectional Vision" Bunch o'links to commercial and research work on omnidirectional vision systems, including novel cameras and software to stitch the images together. The FlyCam work at FujiXerox Palo Alto Labs (FXPal) is particularly interesting, since it is comparatively low cost, done mostly with off-the-shelf hardware. http://www.fxpal.com/smartspaces/flycam/flycam_home.htm Those of you who know about the Aspen Movie Map, a virtual reality tour of Aspen, Colorado performed in 1979 will find the FlyAbout work to be familiar: http://www.fxpal.com/smartspaces/FlyAbout/index.htm The big difference is that now this capability is possible using standard, stock equipment. Oh, and having GPS around is a big help too. How do we make the surveillance society from these pieces? Miniaturize the cameras and associated electronics, and have a large number of people wear one. So far, just like in David Brin's novel "Earth" . Everyone records omnidirectional images of their surroundings, and records the positions they were in. Now, combine this with Peer-to-Peer technology. Allow everyone to search everyone else's image banks, based on geographic information. This require shifting existing P2P technology from a music-based metadata schema to one that is geospatially based. The schemas already exist: . Key factors keeping us from the surveillance society: * the cameras are too heavy, and too expensive * disk space is still too expensive (for compact, portable memory) * wireless transmission rates are still too slow * wireless access is not yet ubiquitous But, I think you'll agree that none of these are fundamental limitations (i.e., fixing these does not require breaking physical laws). When will we start seeing the start of the peer-to-peer surveillance society? I give it 10 years, maybe less. - Jim http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork From llib1120 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 14:14:05 2001 From: llib1120 at yahoo.com (-Email Leads=-) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:14:05 -0600 Subject: Responsive Email Lists Message-ID: <200112012224.QAA05164@einstein.ssz.com> ===================================== New Special~ FREE Stealth Mass Mailer with orders of 250,000! One Month FREE Subscription to 5-10 Blind mail servers/day M-F! (never lose your ISP again!) Completely hides your IP information! ===================================== - FRESH 10,000 List 11-27-01!! 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SEE SITE for more details and pricing! ----------------------------------------------- - SPECIALS! - ---------------------- **FREE with EVERY order: Demo of ListMan e-mail manager software **Orders of 50,000 or more: FREE copy Express Mail Server to send your messages! -This is not a demo but a permanent license for the software! **Orders of 200,000 : - Resale Rights for EMS! -->You keep 100% of the profits - InfoDisk with 1000+ Money Making Reports - CheckMAN software _______________________________________________________________ To be removed from future mailings: mailto:llib1120 at yahoo.com?Subject=Remove From wolf at priori.net Sat Dec 1 16:31:19 2001 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 16:31:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: 256 Bit Encryption for Secure Email and Secure Online File Storage In-Reply-To: <000401c17a53$321cff80$5a01a8c0@adam> Message-ID: Another proprietary key format. Why not base such a system on OpenPGP? Hmm. AES-256 with SHA-256? Children, what's wrong with the balance in this system? How does a user verify authenticity of another user's public key? Aside from being incompatible with anything else on the net, how is this different or more secure than Hushmail? Than Cryptomail.org? -MW- On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Adam: Kurzawa wrote: > Hey, I don't know how many of you have seen this? But here it is > anyway, what do you guys think? > > > CryptoHeaven is a new, secure online service released by CryptoHeaven > Development Team. The product is intended for individuals in need of > security and privacy working together in small groups. > > CryptoHeaven is the only secure online system currently integrating > secure email, secure instant messaging (with multi party support), > secure online file storage & file sharing in one unique package. > > Our services are available over the internet from anywhere, anytime. > Automatic key and contact management ensures you can use your account > from any computer connected to the internet. An easy to use, integrated > user interface capable of running on most current computers ensures that > all services are always available, regardless of where you may be. > > Your privacy is at all times protected with the highest level > cryptography available: 256 bit symmetric key and 2048-4096 bit > asymmetric keys. The level of security offered is unmatched in the > industry. > > Free and premium accounts are available. Take it for a test drive and > invite your friends to try it too. > > CryptoHeaven is confident in its system, and as such we release the > source code to any interested party for a review, free of charge. > > http://www.cryptoheaven.com From mikecabot at fastcircle.com Sat Dec 1 14:07:00 2001 From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 17:07:00 -0500 Subject: Journalists to be treated as terrorists Message-ID: <200112012207.QAA04576@einstein.ssz.com> Can you provide a URL or a source for the quote? > "The President announced today that journalists working against the > interests of the people and filing false reports will be treated as > terrorists and subject to severe punishment." > > a) President Bush of the U.S.A. > > b) President Mugabe of Zimbabwe. > > c) Both of them. > > > --Tim May > "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the > government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton > > >
_______________________________________________________________________________ Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address? Visit http://www.FastCircle.com From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 1 17:28:35 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 17:28:35 -0800 Subject: News we can use Message-ID: Deadly Gas Pumped Into Senate Office Building to Kill Remaining Criminals By Jefferson Henry, Router Rooters Writer WASHINGTON (Router Rooters) - Workers wearing protective suits and air tanks pumped poisonous gas into a Senate building in a cleanup Saturday intended to remove seventy-five Senators hiding in the building. The fumigation with chlorine dioxide gas was delayed for seven hours because of complications in reaching the high concentration level needed to most effectively kill the remaining criminals in the Hart Senate Office Building. Technicians for the Constitutional Protection Agency (news - web sites), which is in charge of the first politician decontamination in the United States using the gas, began pumping the gas into the building at 3 a.m. EST Saturday. John Rossrock, the CPA's on-site coordinator, said the fumigation might extend beyond the planned 12 hours in order to ``remove some lingering Congressional staffers and get an extra measure of confidence.'' The operation is expected to be complete by Tuesday, allowing Washington, D.C. to be declared a pest-free zone for the first time since 1911. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1746 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Sat Dec 1 17:43:33 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 17:43:33 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C089265.4281.4F715C7@localhost> References: <6DBE4C15-E621-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org> <3C06921E.23156.2672FDC@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011201174333.007e7100@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:18 AM 12/1/01 -0800, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: >On 30 Nov 2001, at 22:05, Petro wrote: >> What makes you think a reputation cannot be bought and sold? >> Ever hear of Public Relations firms? Politicians? >> Both are in the business of buying and selling reputations. >> > >Not exactly. You can pay a PR firm to try and help improve >your reputation, but that's not the same thing a reputation >pre-assembled and gift wrapped. Most likely they'll just tell you >to wear more earth tones, which won't actually help. > George, Petro is *way* off here. A PR firm/psyop division can only try to promote an opinion. They cannot control others' estimations of their clients' reputations. Consider a PR firm that fucks up. A pile of little baby arms, to excerpt Coppola. Yes, a good psyop operation can deny negative information, promote the positive, and thereby influence the population. That is a matter of information flow & control; the reps (which are distributed in the minds of subscribers) are not directly controlled. I suggest recognizing the distinction between controlling info and slant (psyops and Dan Rather and Turner and Murdoch, I don't actually follow that stuff) and controlling reps which can't be done directly (but which can be measured). The fact that info & slant *can* influence distributed reps is why psyops folks have jobs. Finally the reps which can (or can't) be bought and sold (the subject of an amazingly advanced thread, presently) is distinct from control of info and reps thereof. Petro is unfortunately mixing 'selling-of-nym-reps' with 'PR's effect of reps in a given population'. With all due respect. From pc2nups at pon.net Sat Dec 1 17:46:18 2001 From: pc2nups at pon.net (pc2nups at pon.net) Date: 01 Dec 2001 17:46:18 -0800 Subject: WE NEED YOUR HELP! Message-ID: <200112020143.RAA15820@toad.com> If you received this email by mistake and wish to be removed, scroll to the bottom of the page and follow the instructions. PC 2NUPS, Inc. 783 Rio Del Mar Blvd. Aptos, CA 95003 800-PC2NUPS 831-662-3600 100 COMPUTERS AT HUGE DISCOUNT! On September 8, 2001 one of our best customers ordered 100 Micron PCs at $499 each. Dutifully, we called our vendor and placed the order. On September 12, 2001, our customer called and cancelled their order due to the events the previous day. We tried to cancel our order but our vendor refused to take them back. NOW WE ARE STUCK WITH 100 COMPUTERS WE MUST SELL! These are brand new 750 Mhz PCs with 128 MB of RAM, 20 Gigabyte hard disk drives, 52X CD-ROMS, 56K PCI modems, 32 MB ATI Xpert2000 Pro AGP video cards, integrated sound adapters, Mitsumi 1.44 floppy, mouse and keyboard. Manufactured by Micron, a NYSE company! Our misfortune is your opportunity! We have no choice! We can't send them back and we can't store them. We have to sell them even if we don't make a profit! We have decided to lower the price on these 100 computers to just $389! An almost unheard of bargin. You'll save $110! We have just 100 of these computers to sell at this low price. When they are gone, your chance to save on a great computer system by a top notch company will go with them. Call us today at 662-3600. Take advantage of our mistake! But do it at once, this opportunity to save money will not occur again! Yours Up To 100, The Folks At PC 2NUPS P.S.: Buy Today and Get a FREE Pair of Creative Lab Speakers! In accordance with California Business and Professions Code Section 17538.4, if you do not wish to receive additional mail from us, simply send a blank e-mail with a subject line "REMOVE" to pc2nups at pon.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2817 bytes Desc: not available URL: From _titomaroto at ig.com.br Sat Dec 1 18:06:15 2001 From: _titomaroto at ig.com.br (titomaroto) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:06:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Message-ID: <200112020206.SAA16875@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 110 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HAMSTER.DOC.pif Type: audio/x-wav Size: 29020 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 1 15:09:57 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:09:57 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:46 PM -0800 on 12/1/01, Tim May wrote: > What there may be are market-clearing prices, in various markets and at > various times, but this has nothing to do with "universally agreed-upon > values." Amen. The "worth" of anything is what the market pays for it. Period. I expect that "reputation" is something very close to "goodwill", which is a polite accounting fiction to deal with the fact that the calculated "worth", of an asset as carried on the books of a purchased entity, is less than what the market paid for it. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From measl at mfn.org Sat Dec 1 16:23:07 2001 From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:23:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: It's for the sake of the Chiiiiildren. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > http://www.banscrewdrivers.com > > > "We hope that by ultimately banning the sale and use of screwdrivers, we > can make the world a little bit safer, and increase compassion towards > victims of screwdriver crimes and accidents." $100.00 says 9 out of ten people who hit the site will not understand what is being discussed :-( Nevertheless, this site *rocks*! -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From 3743859travelincentives at aol.com Sat Dec 1 18:37:43 2001 From: 3743859travelincentives at aol.com (3743859travelincentives at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:37:43 Subject: 6872 Would you like to lose weight while you sleep? 4385937 Message-ID: <200112020747.BAA08037@einstein.ssz.com> As seen on NBC, CBS, CNN, and even Oprah! The health discovery that actually reverses aging while burning fat, without dieting or exercise! This proven discovery has even been reported on by the New England Journal of Medicine. Forget aging and dieting forever! And it's Guaranteed! Click here: http://weighout.81832.com Would you like to lose weight while you sleep! No dieting! No hunger pains! No Cravings! No strenuous exercise! 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To remove yourself from all related maillists, just click here: mailto:pac2server at btamail.net.cn?Subject=REMOVE From 3743921travelincentives at aol.com Sat Dec 1 18:37:43 2001 From: 3743921travelincentives at aol.com (3743921travelincentives at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:37:43 Subject: 7368 Would you like to lose weight while you sleep? 4392137 Message-ID: <200112021544.HAA16214@toad.com> As seen on NBC, CBS, CNN, and even Oprah! The health discovery that actually reverses aging while burning fat, without dieting or exercise! This proven discovery has even been reported on by the New England Journal of Medicine. Forget aging and dieting forever! And it's Guaranteed! Click here: http://weighout.81832.com Would you like to lose weight while you sleep! No dieting! No hunger pains! No Cravings! No strenuous exercise! Change your life forever! 100% GUARANTEED! 1.Body Fat Loss 82% improvement. 2.Wrinkle Reduction 61% improvement. 3.Energy Level 84% improvement. 4.Muscle Strength 88% improvement. 5.Sexual Potency 75% improvement. 6.Emotional Stability 67% improvement. 7.Memory 62% improvement. *********************************************************** Click here to see another weight loss product: http://ultimatehgh.81832.com You are receiving this email as a subscriber to the Opt-In America Mailing List. To remove yourself from all related maillists, just click here: mailto:pac2server at btamail.net.cn?Subject=REMOVE From custserv at DSPromos.com Sat Dec 1 19:05:51 2001 From: custserv at DSPromos.com (DemStore.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:05:51 -0800 Subject: Great Holiday Specials Message-ID: <200112020309.TAA19669@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9708 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 1 16:27:20 2001 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:27:20 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2691 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 1 19:52:33 2001 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:52:33 -0800 Subject: Journalists to be treated as terrorists In-Reply-To: <200112020342.VAA06895@einstein.ssz.com> Message-ID: <04088A3F-E6D8-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net> On Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 07:41 PM, mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote: > The Bush quote, please :) > > (Assuming Bush said it.) > >> >> >> Which one? >> >> >> --Tim May >> Mugabe said it, based on reporting last night on CNN. (Not a word for word quote, but faithful to the meaning.) Bush might well have said it, as more and more classes of people are now classed as "terrorists," the new pass phrase to the Constitution. --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759. From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 01:10:04 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 20:10:04 +1100 Subject: dead reporter found in motel Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201195553.00a5aeb0@pop.useoz.com> Kyneton,victoria au.Nov 2001.Wired reporter declan mc cullagh was found dead today in a country motel. Both wrists were deeply slashed with a stanley Knife and police say there are no suspicious circumstances. Though working on an esoteric story about a prototype internet weirdo,mc cullagh was said by a friend called 'measl' to be depressed.A washington lobby group known as the Cato institute is paying to have mr mc cullaghs ashes flown back home where they may be scattered over the city he loved.A huge crowd is expected inc many libertarians. Severance Package Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Taliban's big kahuna, is floating an idea that a lot of publishers might find tempting: Shoot a reporter and get $50,000. From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 01:35:09 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 20:35:09 +1100 Subject: petrols opinion Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201203001.00a5b5d0@pop.useoz.com> "CJP is/was/will be a lot funnier, and could babble in a fairly linear incoherency that mattd cannot. " Agreed ,Ill even put a proffr dollar on myself. From roach_s at intplsrv.net Sat Dec 1 19:30:46 2001 From: roach_s at intplsrv.net (Sean Roach) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:30:46 -0600 Subject: zks freedom websecure trial Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20011201213020.00d1fb80@pop3.norton.antivirus> I got the invite as well. It LOOKS like they might be adding a little of the OLD Freedom back in. Anyone know if it's more than one proxy server, and if ZKS is going to control it/them? I haven't uninstalled freedom 3.0, but I haven't used Freedom at all since they pulled the tunneling. From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 02:33:28 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:33:28 +1100 Subject: Assasinating politics Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201212124.00a5c3d0@pop.useoz.com> Like bio-warfare,a subject that wont go away.AP is OK for the US and many other govts and the lunar right.Is it for you? politicalassasinations.com? I read a piece recently titled "Assasination Politics" and although I find the implications quite frightening, I must say that it seems to fit well within the whole Anarcho-Capitalist framework. The paper outlines an internet based system that would allow users to anonymously contribute money to a fund that would be used to place a pricetag on the head of a tyrannical despot. Collection of the bounty would also be done anonymously and electronically, due to the wonders of crypto. In theory, it would keep politicians on the straight and narrow. Interesting idea. I'm probably on an FBI list for posting a link to the paper on my site http://www.pjdoland.com/revolution/politics.html From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 02:45:37 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:45:37 +1100 Subject: Assasinating politics 2 Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201214430.00a64eb0@pop.useoz.com> http://www.libertarian.to/index.html Table Of Contents : June 29 June 2001 Assasination politics. by Jim Bell An interesting proposition ?? Libertarian International's mission is to coordinate various initiatives in the defense of individual liberty throughout the world. Formally, Libertarian International is a non-profit foundation registered in the Netherlands. You can write to us at our snail mail address : P.O. Box 21, 2910 Essen, Belgium Our BANK ACCOUNT, where you can send your contributions is with the RABO BANK, A/C Libertarian International, number 17.43.35.350 We accept payments in E-gold. The E-gold account number of Libertarian International is :102265 If you do not yet have your own E-gold account, find out about it on e-gold.com Libertarian International has little time or need for bureaucracy and hierarchy. Hubert Jongen of the Netherlands is the president; Palle Steen Jensen in Copenhagen, Christian Michel in Geneva and Henrik Bejke are among the founding members, and you are welcome to get in touch with any of them for further information and contacts. Libertarian International's principles are based on libertarianism. While libertarians are a diverse group of people with many philosophical starting points, they share a defining belief: that everyone should be free to do as they choose, so long as they don't infringe upon the equal freedom of others. Human interaction should be voluntary, not coerced. The only time physical force is acceptable is when it is used to defend against force. Many libertarians frame this in terms of the non-aggression principle: no individual or group of individuals shall initiate force against the person or property of any other individual. This might not seem very radical. After all, your parents probably taught you not to cheat, steal or pick fights -- in other words, not to use force against others. What sets libertarians apart is that they don't make any exceptions to this principle -- not even for governments. In the libertarian view, governments should be held to the same standards of right and wrong as individuals. As a result, libertarians believe that governments should not interfere with the interactions and exchanges of peaceful people. From artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 20:08:10 2001 From: artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com (Artcamp SC de RL) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 22:08:10 -0600 Subject: the Mexican woman who followed her heart Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011201220549.01f58010@pop.mail.yahoo.com> Artcamp is presenting our serialized e-novel "Azucena" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indigenous_peoples_literature/messages I You are welcome to join this group if you want to follow the story Azucena is the Mexican woman who followed her heart on the road to her destiny wherever that way leads. This is the "true" story, transformed by art, of a village girl whose heart was stolen by a macho bull-rider Best wishes from Guerrero Mexico Maria www.artcamp.com.mx _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From piolenc at mozcom.com Sat Dec 1 06:33:30 2001 From: piolenc at mozcom.com (F. Marc de Piolenc) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 22:33:30 +0800 Subject: fuel injected firearm References: Message-ID: <3C08EA3A.813A4BDE@mozcom.com> I owned a Gyrojet and about 18 rounds of ammo back in the 70's, until my mother put it into her unsecure storage locker, whence it was stolen. I fired about 6 rounds through it. It was incredibly quiet, making no more noise than one of the smaller Estes rocket engines. Totally unlike a firearm, thus unlikely to be identified as a threat by a live target. There was, however, a distinct pause between pulling the trigger and the departure of the round - you had to follow through and be very steady. The construction of the weapon was more like a child's toy gun than a real weapon - crude sights, poor balance, etc. I miss it, though - I have a weakness for white elephants. Marc de Piolenc "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > > Steven Furlong[SMTP:sfurlong at acmenet.net] > > > > > I did see a GyroJet pistol once. A rocket pistol, firing little > > > rockets. Early 60s. Very expensive. And suffered from the fact that > > > each little rocket had to accelerate up to speed. Lots of chance for the > > > target to move. > > > > Gyrojet rounds burned out in, IIRC, 20 feet, and they covered that first > > 20 feet in a small fraction of a second. I don't think target dodging is > > any more of an issue than with conventional bullets. > > > Another problem with the Gyrojet was accuracy. Since it left the barrel > much more slowly than a traditional round, gyroscopic stabilization > was at a minimum at the start of the shell's path. A slight wobble > at this point would translate into a large deviation at the target. > > Peter -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin From mikecabot at fastcircle.com Sat Dec 1 19:41:34 2001 From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 22:41:34 -0500 Subject: Journalists to be treated as terrorists Message-ID: <200112020342.VAA06895@einstein.ssz.com> The Bush quote, please :) (Assuming Bush said it.) > > > Which one? > > > --Tim May > > >
_______________________________________________________________________________ Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address? Visit http://www.FastCircle.com From m2001ig at yahoo.com Sat Dec 1 23:47:00 2001 From: m2001ig at yahoo.com (BETTER FUTURES) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:47:00 -0800 Subject: BETTER YOUR FUTURE NOW,WE'LL SHOW YOU HOW! Message-ID: <200112020651.AAA07887@einstein.ssz.com> PUT YOUR COMPUTER TO "WORK FROM HOME" PT/FT $500-$5000 PER MONTH Do business in 50+ countries from you computer with our 20 year, Nasdaq traded, global company with 10-fold growth in last decade. Training and support in 20 languages via live schools, Internet audio/videos, conference calls or via the world�s largest private satellite network. Part time/ full time www.4abetterfuture.com/success4u, Your private access code is success4u To learn about us visitwww.4abetterfuture.com/success4u , access code success4u. You will be linked to our online video info site. Our information and online videos are free, informative and educational. The people on the videos all work from home and earn from a few hundred a month to over $5 million us per year. Twice in the last 20 years, we have been recognized as one of the fastest growing companies in America (by INC Magazine). We just opened offices in our 50th country, Morocco, in January 2001 and are opening our 51st country, Columbia, in June. If you are interested in doing something from home to supplement your income or possibly to become financially independent, you can follow the link above to see if what we have might work for you. It has for thousands of others around the world. To your better future we send our Best Wishes, MIG Consultants IN LIFE WE ARE ALL GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED, WHETHER WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM IS UP TO US. GO HERE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR OPPORTUNITY: www.4abetterfuture.com/success4u ********************************************************************** *I apologise if you have been offended. If you'd like to be removed, simply reply with REMOVE in the subject line and you will be removed immediately and receive no further mailings. This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be considered SPAM aslong as I include a valid return address and the way to be removed. Your contact information came to us from an opt-in firm. Although most of our mail is sent once only, for prompt, permanent removal of your records, simply reply to this with "REMOVE". We have a strict anti-Spam policy. From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org Sat Dec 1 21:35:57 2001 From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:35:57 -0500 Subject: News we can use Message-ID: <42fc823ff61acacc817a01a43e4c3adb@freedom.gmsociety.org> > Deadly Gas Pumped Into Senate Office Building to Kill Remaining Criminals May's handlers are panicking. 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Please email me your name and full mailing address to vision4u96709 at yahoo.com Earnest vision4u96709 at yahoo.com 808-361-1696 From kmself at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 2 00:43:13 2001 From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:43:13 -0800 Subject: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions In-Reply-To: <200111262116.fAQLG6926325@slack.lne.com>; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:12:53PM -0800 References: <200111262116.fAQLG6926325@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20011202004313.A3395@navel.introspect> on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:12:53PM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote: > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing. > > I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and > see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size > changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.) Defeat: create a log buffer file of fixed size, logged activity changes its contents, but not the size of the file. E.g.: a filesystem image file under GNU/Linux. Techniques could be used to maintain a constant global MD5 checksum to defeat other detection attempts. Manipulating file create/modify times is trivial under most OSs. > Most users of PGP take no steps to secure key materials. (I plead > guilty, too.) Most of us are used to immediate access, and we want > crypto integrated with our mail. The notion of going to a locked safe, > taking out the laptop or removable hard drive, ensuring an "air gap" > between the decoding system and the Net, and checking for keyloggers > and hostile code, and so on, is foreign to most of us. These measures can be taken for specific, high-security, messages. Risk profiles are not isomorphic in all circumstances. > The "dongle" idea (e.g., Dallas Semiconductor buttons, etc.) has been > around for a long time. Many of which are woefully poorly designed. Zimmerman at ALS spoke of one in which the key was stored in cleartext within the dongle, don't recall the specific device. > Here's a new twist: the Apple iPod music player. I just got one. A 4.6 > GB hard disk (Toshiba 1.8"). Hooks up via Firewire/IEEE 1394, with the > link recharging the battery and auto-linking. The disk can also be > mounted as a standard Firewire disk. Meaning, it could be used to > store key material and even be used for PGP scratch operations. The > increased security comes from its small size (easy to lock up) and > because I usually have it with me when I am away from home. This makes > "sneak and peek" searches and plants of malicious code less useful. > Not a complete solution. Crypto hygiene and all. The iPod's definitely an attractive target for portable computing, it's also fairly robust (I bounced the demo off the hardwood floor of Apple's Palo Alto store from about 4-5 ft.). It appears you're just using it for storage purposes. Note that this still requires trusting the environment to which the iPod is attached. Various handhelds, particularly running an advanced OS (e.g.: GNU/Linux), would be similarly attractive devices, readily kept on ones person at most times, and support encrypted filesystems or files. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ Land of the free Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature] From jon at usedvideo.org Sat Dec 1 17:32:09 2001 From: jon at usedvideo.org (jon at usedvideo.org) Date: 2 Dec 2001 01:32:09 +0000 Subject: Used Video Gear 4 Sale Message-ID: alkdf To unsubscribe from this email list, http://www.emailhosts.com/secutran/emailmanager/addaddress.php?shreference=SH201105&action=2&address=cypherpunks at toad.com&jobid=16520 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10281 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 11:17:20 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:17:20 +1100 Subject: Dead reporter found in motel Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202061523.00a619b0@pop.useoz.com> 220 pounds of anthrax spores released from a crop-duster over Washington D.C., on a calm clear night - could kill one million to three million people in the metropolitan area, according to the US Office of Technology Assessment. William Patrick, who served as a UN Inspector in Iraq, believes the scenario could take only 100 pounds of the agent.The main detail now is to make just work on the honkies. From mattd at useoz.com Sat Dec 1 11:31:43 2001 From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:31:43 +1100 Subject: Fwd: Attn: J Orlin Grabbe Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202063109.00a62860@pop.useoz.com> >Subject: Attn: J Orlin Grabbe > >November: Iceland ignores Sea Shepherd's warning to comply with the IWC >ban on commercial whaling. Sea Shepherd agents sink half of Iceland's >whaling fleet in Reykjavik harbor and destroy their whale processing station. > >1988 March: A Sea Shepherd agent documents the killing of dolphins by a >U.S. tuna seiner. The footage scandalizes the nation, embarrasses the tuna >industry, and leads to the creation of the "dolphin-safe" tuna label law. > >1989 June: The Sea Shepherd II intercepts two Venezuelan tuna seiners off >the coast of Costa Rica, documents evidence of kills exceeding a thousand >dolphins, disrupts Mexican tuna seiner operations in the Eastern Pacific. > >1990 August: The Sea Shepherd II encounters two Japanese drift net vessels >in the eastern Pacific, cuts and confiscates thirty miles of drift net. > >1991 July: Sea Shepherd goes to Trinidad to protest Caribbean driftnetting >by the Taiwanese. Sea Shepherd is made an official auxiliary to the >Trinidad & Tobago Coast Guard. > >December 20th, 1991: The United Nation General Assembly approves >Resolution 46/215 which bans drift net fishing worldwide as of January 1993. > >1992 March: SSCS establishes the Oceanic Research and Conservation Action >Force, or O.R.C.A.FORCE, to coordinate all data gathering and crew actions >of Sea Shepherd. Lisa Distefano is appointed Director. > >May: O.R.C.A.FORCE agent scuttles the illegal driftnet vessel Jiang Hai in >the harbor at Kaohsiung, Taiwan. >One-click activism: >Send this report & your comments to the Costa Rican Ambassador: >http://eactivist.actionize.org/actnow.php?1338 > >October 31st, 2001 > >Cocos Island Emergency >A report from Nicola Ghersinich and Mario Arroyo > >Every year, 1,250 visitors come to scuba dive Cocos Island, off Costa >Rica, attracted by its extraordinary biodiversity of this World Heritage Site. > >Today, Cocos Island can no longer be considered a marine reserve. It is >now a fishing base. What had been considered a sanctuary for threatened >marine species is now just an extended community for fishermen to exploit. > >We are confronting a crisis. >(cont at http://www.seashepherd.org/campaigns/cocos/pr110601.html From jackdx at byada.com Sun Dec 2 15:34:51 2001 From: jackdx at byada.com (Amy Wilson) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:34:51 -1700 Subject: Highest Payout On The Net!! Message-ID: <00001092409f$00004715$00002daa@mail.byada.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1415 bytes Desc: not available URL: From james_denney at byada.com Sun Dec 2 15:35:10 2001 From: james_denney at byada.com (Darren Wells) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:35:10 -1700 Subject: Earn some EXTRA Holiday Cash Message-ID: <0000066e3310$00007857$00002e57@mail.byada.com> * Toss The 9 to 5 * Does Financial Freedom Interest You? How about being your own boss? Working your own hours? Answering ONLY to yourself? Skydiving in Egypt? (just making sure you're listening) Are you interested in applying your skills towards Direct Marketing and the Internet? If you are motivated, trainable and serious about starting a home-based business, then we would like to talk with you! Follow Me To The Details To be removed from this list Click Here From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Dec 2 06:41:53 2001 From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 06:41:53 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C08DDBD.32398.61D6795@localhost> References: <3C08D38B.10329.103F322@localhost> Message-ID: <3C09CD31.10863.4D32372@localhost> -- georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > > > For reputation to have a single well defined value it > > > is necessary but not sufficient that there be a market > > > in reputations; it must be a COMMODITIZED market. James A. Donald: > > Something has a single well defined value to its > > possessor without any need for it to be commoditized. georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote: > We're not disagreeing. By a "single" value I meant a > universally agreed upon value. Strictly speaking, nothing has a single universally agreed value, not even a single universally agreed exchange value, though commodity goods come close. Exchange value is a discovery process, which can never be entirely completed. Our main interest in reputations is that the value of someone's reputation will stop them from doing bad things. For example an auctioneer with a reasonable nym on ebay will get about six percent better prices in auctions than someone with a crappy nym. If one regularly auctions stuff, that is worth serious money. Now reflect that if someone has a good established name on ebay he can sell it, which is why most sellers do not use true names. Of course the buyer, having paid serious money for the name, will usually continue to behave as well as the person who earned the reputation. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG YpkuiCiQKlQNtG6KCw8TrfRj0dRYxgS6RmoIHl44 45BtPAvKM5c1B3GhThLZN0NSLAVL5uag5zYdRmrw3 From honig at sprynet.com Sun Dec 2 07:19:29 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 07:19:29 -0800 Subject: Enigma - sources Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011202071929.007f0340@pop.sprynet.com> >From: "Rafal Brzeski" >To: >Subject: Enigma - sources >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:16:16 +0100 > >As I was asked to provide documentary evidence regarding Polish pre-war >codebreaking achievements I would like to inform all List Members that .pdf >versions of the original versions of: > >Marian Rejewski's report of 1940 >Marian Rejewski's report of 1967 >Marian Rejewski's report of 1969 >Marian Rejewski's notes, commentaries to various books etc > >will be shortly published in the "Enigma File" a special section of the >Spybooks. (www.spybooks.com) > >Now in the Spybooks Library, you can read (and pick up if you want) a short >compendium: "ENIGMA: The Key to the Secrets of the Third Reich 1933-45" >written in 1984 by Wladyslaw Kozaczuk, an author who first in the world (in >1967) made public the fact that the German Enigma machine cipher had been >cracked before the Second World War. > >Best regards, >--- >Rafal Brzeski >www.spybooks.com From info at all1print.com Sat Dec 1 16:14:17 2001 From: info at all1print.com (All1Print Newsletter) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 08:14:17 +0800 Subject: Business Cards as your powerful marketing tools Message-ID: <1007252057.950@tm.net.my> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9989 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Sun Dec 2 10:01:05 2001 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:01:05 -0800 Subject: dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: <20011202111619.A8097@cluebot.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201195553.00a5aeb0@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011202100105.007eb100@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:16 AM 12/2/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Yeah, it wasn't terrible. But it wasn't up there with the Linux >Chainsaw Massacre either. > >-Declan Is that an updated sequel to the Xenix Chainsaw Massacre? Did you get an advance copy for review :-) From grocha at neutraldomain.org Sun Dec 2 10:43:50 2001 From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:43:50 -0800 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 12:29:07PM -0600 References: <3C09CD31.10863.4D32372@localhost> Message-ID: <20011202104350.B73534@neutraldomain.org> On Sun, Dec 02, at 12:29PM, Jim Choate wrote: | Actually not, most folks use reputations to do away with security checks | they would use othewise. It's a sellers cost cutting measure. If you have | a 'good' reputation my cost of diong secure and reliable business will | probably(!!!) be lower. I know trying to educate you to the ways of the world is a futile effort, but I can't resist sometimes. How does my great wonderful reputation reduce the cost of doing business with me? It may well give me more business, but certainly not chaper business. I don't care how reliable you are, if you start skimping on security your reliability goes down in my book. --Gabe -- Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into World War II: "If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 2 09:09:48 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 11:09:48 -0600 Subject: Guardian Unlimited Observer | International | FBI agents rebel over new powers Message-ID: <3C0A605C.564EAF0@ssz.com> http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,610381,00.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sun Dec 2 08:16:19 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:16:19 -0500 Subject: dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: ; from measl@mfn.org on Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:49AM -0600 References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011201195553.00a5aeb0@pop.useoz.com> Message-ID: <20011202111619.A8097@cluebot.com> On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:49AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > That's the first thing you have ever written that was genuinely worth > reading! Keep practicing, and in three or four hundred years you could be > the "GreatGreatReallyGreatGrandsonOfGomez(tM)". Yeah, it wasn't terrible. But it wasn't up there with the Linux Chainsaw Massacre either. -Declan From mdig20012000 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 2 11:42:03 2001 From: mdig20012000 at yahoo.com (BETTER FUTURES) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:42:03 -0800 Subject: BETTER YOUR FUTURE NOW,WE'LL SHOW YOU HOW! Message-ID: <200112021843.MAA11678@einstein.ssz.com> PUT YOUR COMPUTER TO "WORK FROM HOME" PT/FT $500-$5000 PER MONTH Do business in 50+ countries from you computer with our 20 year, Nasdaq traded, global company with 10-fold growth in last decade. Training and support in 20 languages via live schools, Internet audio/videos, conference calls or via the world�s largest private satellite network. Part time/ full time www.4abetterfuture.com/success4u, Your private access code is success4u To learn about us visitwww.4abetterfuture.com/success4u , access code success4u. You will be linked to our online video info site. Our information and online videos are free, informative and educational. The people on the videos all work from home and earn from a few hundred a month to over $5 million us per year. Twice in the last 20 years, we have been recognized as one of the fastest growing companies in America (by INC Magazine). We just opened offices in our 50th country, Morocco, in January 2001 and are opening our 51st country, Columbia, in June. If you are interested in doing something from home to supplement your income or possibly to become financially independent, you can follow the link above to see if what we have might work for you. It has for thousands of others around the world. To your better future we send our Best Wishes, MIG Consultants IN LIFE WE ARE ALL GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED, WHETHER WE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM IS UP TO US. GO HERE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR OPPORTUNITY: www.4abetterfuture.com/success4u ********************************************************************** *I apologise if you have been offended. If you'd like to be removed, simply reply with REMOVE in the subject line and you will be removed immediately and receive no further mailings. This message is sent in compliance of the new email Bill HR 1910. Under Bill HR 1910 passed by the 106th US Congress on May 24, 1999, this message cannot be considered SPAM aslong as I include a valid return address and the way to be removed. Your contact information came to us from an opt-in firm. Although most of our mail is sent once only, for prompt, permanent removal of your records, simply reply to this with "REMOVE". We have a strict anti-Spam policy. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 2 10:15:07 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:15:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote: > But by preventing me from trespassing you're restricting my freedom of > speech! According to you, that's illegal. Not at all. You are still free to speak, just not on my property. You have a right to engage in any behaviour until it infringes another. You're trespassing infringes my property right. My not allowing you entry doesn't effect your freedom of speech (only who is listening, which isn't a right). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 2 10:19:44 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:19:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <6DBE4C15-E621-11D5-8944-00306577F12E@bounty.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Petro wrote: > Both are in the business of buying and selling reputations. Actually they're in the business of buying and selling 'impressions', not reputations. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 2 10:29:07 2001 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:29:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: <3C09CD31.10863.4D32372@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote: > Our main interest in reputations is that the value of > someone's reputation will stop them from doing bad things. Actually not, most folks use reputations to do away with security checks they would use othewise. It's a sellers cost cutting measure. If you have a 'good' reputation my cost of diong secure and reliable business will probably(!!!) be lower. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sun Dec 2 10:03:59 2001 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:03:59 -0500 Subject: dead reporter found in motel In-Reply-To: <20011202175512.8F3A1259C3@suburbia.net> References: <20011202111619.A8097@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011202130347.022e47e0@mail.well.com> Ack, of course you're right. http://www.tigerteam.net/anarchy/texts/xenix-full.html -Declan At 04:55 AM 12/3/2001 +1100, Julian Assange wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:49AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote: > > > That's the first thing you have ever written that was genuinely worth > > > reading! Keep practicing, and in three or four hundred years you > could be > > > the "GreatGreatReallyGreatGrandsonOfGomez(tM)". > > > > Yeah, it wasn't terrible. But it wasn't up there with the Linux > > Chainsaw Massacre either. > > > > -Declan > >Xenix. From fubob at MIT.EDU Sun Dec 2 13:46:58 2001 From: fubob at MIT.EDU (Kevin Fu) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:46:58 -0800 Subject: 2002 USENIX Security Symposium - Call for papers Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011202134522.033ba870@idiom.com> Symposium's in San Francisco in August. Papers due January 28 for review. In case your mailer doesn't like the way Eudora munges headers while forwarding, it was originally sent by Kevin Fu Bill Stewart =================================== 2002 USENIX Security Symposium - Call for papers OVERVIEW Tutorials: August 5-6, 2002 Technical Sessions: August 7-9, 2002 The USENIX Security Symposium brings together researchers, practitioners, system administrators, system programmers, and others interested in the latest advances in security of computer systems. If you are working on any practical aspects of security or applications of cryptography, the program committee would like to encourage you to submit a paper. Submissions are due on January 28th, 2002. This symposium will last for four and a half days. Two days of tutorials will be followed by two and a half days of technical sessions including refereed papers, invited talks, works-in-progress, and panel discussions. IMPORTANT DATES Conference registration information and program will be available in May 2002 on the symposium Web site at http://www.usenix.org/events/sec02/ If you would like to receive the program booklet in print, please email your request, including your postal address, to: conference at usenix.org. Paper submission deadline: January 28th, 2002 Notification to authors: March 25th, 2002 Camera ready due: May 13th, 2002 SYMPOSIUM ORGANIZERS Program Chair Dan Boneh, Stanford University Program Committee Steve Bellovin, AT&T Labs - Research Matt Blaze, AT&T Labs - Research Drew Dean, SRI International Kevin Fu, M.I.T. Brian LaMacchia, Microsoft Corporation Patrick Lincoln, SRI International Vern Paxson, ICSI Radia Perlman, Sun Microsystems Laboratories Mike Reiter, Bell Labs, Lucent Avi Rubin, AT&T Labs - Research Adam Stubblefield, Rice University Leendert van Doorn, IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Wietse Venema, IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Dan Wallach, Rice University Bennet Yee, University of California, San Diego Elizabeth Zwicky, Counterpane Internet Security SYMPOSIUM TOPICS Refereed paper submissions are being solicited in all areas relating to systems and network security, including but not limited to: Adaptive security and system management Analysis of malicious code Analysis of network and security protocols Applications of cryptographic techniques Attacks against networks and machines Automated tools for source code analysis Authentication and authorization of users, systems, and applications Denial-of-service attacks File and filesystem security Firewall technologies Intrusion detection Privacy preserving systems Public key infrastructure Rights management and copyright protection Security in heterogeneous environments Security of agents and mobile code Security of Internet voting systems Techniques for developing secure systems World Wide Web security Since Usenix Security is primarily a systems security conference, papers focusing on cryptographic primitives or electronic commerce models, are encouraged to seek alternative conferences. REFEREED PAPERS Wednesday - Friday, August 7-9 Papers that have been formally reviewed and accepted will be presented during the symposium and published in the symposium proceedings. The proceedings will be distributed to attendees and, following the conference, will be available online to USENIX members and for purchase. Best Paper Awards Awards will be given at the conference for the best paper and for the best paper that is primarily the work of a student. TUTORIALS, INVITED TALKS, PANEL DISCUSSIONS, WIPS, AND BOFS In addition to the refereed papers and the keynote presentation, the technical program will include tutorials, invited talks, panel discussions, a Work-in-Progress session (WIPs), and Birds-of-a-Feather Sessions. You are invited to make suggestions regarding topics or speakers for any of these formats to the program chair via email to sec02chair at usenix.org. Tutorials (August 5-6) Tutorials for both technical staff and managers will provide immediately useful, practical information on topics such as local and network security precautions, what cryptography can and cannot do, security mechanisms and policies, firewalls and monitoring systems. If you are interested in proposing a tutorial, or suggesting a topic, contact the USENIX Tutorial Coordinator, Dan Klein, by email to dvk at usenix.org. Invited Talks (August 7-9) There will be several outstanding invited talks at the symposium in parallel with the refereed papers. Please submit topic suggestions and talk proposals via email to sec02it at usenix.org. Panel Discussions (August 7-9) The technical sessions will also feature some panel discussions. Please send topic suggestions and proposals to sec02chair at usenix.org. Work-in-Progress Session (WIPs) (August 9) The last session of the symposium will be a Works-in-Progress session. This session will consist of short presentations about work-in-progress, new results, or timely topics. Speakers should submit a one- or two-paragraph abstract to sec02wips at usenix.org by 6:00 pm on Wednesday, August 7, 2002. Please include your name, affiliation, and the title of your talk. The accepted abstracts will appear on the symposium Web site after the symposium. The time available will be distributed among the presenters with a minimum of 5 minutes and a maximum of 10 minutes. The time limit will be strictly enforced. A schedule of presentations will be posted at the symposium. Experience has shown that most submissions are usually accepted. Birds-of-a-Feather Sessions (BoFs) (August 6-8) There will be Birds-of-a-Feather sessions (BoFs) on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings. Birds-of-a-Feather sessions are informal gatherings of persons interested in a particular topic. BoFs often feature a presentation or a demonstration followed by discussion, announcements, and the sharing of strategies. BoFs can be scheduled on-site, but if you wish to pre-schedule a BoF, please email the conference office, conference at usenix.org. They will need to know the title of the BoF with a brief description, the name, title and company and email address of the facilitator, your preference of date, and whether an overhead projector and screen is desired. HOW AND WHERE TO SUBMIT REFEREED PAPERS Papers should represent novel scientific contributions in computer security with direct relevance to the engineering of secure systems and networks. Both the work described in the paper and the paper itself must be substantially complete at the time of the submission. Full papers are encouraged, and should be about 8 to 14 typeset pages using an 11pt font or larger. Submissions must be received by January 28th, 2002. Papers will only be accepted electronically, via the symposium Web site, and must be in PDF format (e.g. processed by Adobe's Acrobat Distiller). Note that LaTeX users can use the "dvipdf" command to convert a DVI file into PDF format. Please make sure your submission can be opened using Adobe Acrobat 4.0. For more details on the submission process, authors are encouraged to consult the detailed author guidelines available at http://www.usenix.org/events/sec02/cfp/guidelines.html All submissions will be judged on originality, contribution to the field, and correctness. Each accepted submission may be assigned a member of the program committee to act as its shepherd through the preparation of the final paper. The assigned member will act as a conduit for feedback from the committee to the authors. Authors will be notified of acceptance by March 25th, 2002. Camera-ready final paper due date is May 13th, 2002. The USENIX Security Symposium, like most conferences and journals, requires that papers not be submitted simultaneously to another conference or publication and that submitted papers not be previously or subsequently published elsewhere. When appropriate, authors should arrange for a release for publication from their employer prior to submission. Papers accompanied by non-disclosure agreement forms are not acceptable and will be returned to the author(s) unread. Submissions will be read by the program committee and other selected members of the technical community for the purposes of technical review, but otherwise will be held in confidentiality. Specific questions about submissions may be sent via e-mail to sec02chair at usenix.org. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com From donotreply at webhosting.com Sun Dec 2 11:58:23 2001 From: donotreply at webhosting.com (donotreply at webhosting.com) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:58:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Message received Message-ID: <200112021958.fB2JwN138151@whbsd020.webhosting.com> Greetings from SBC's WebHosting.com, We have received your eMail regarding suspected abuse of our Acceptable Use Policy by one of our customers. If your issue involves unsolicited eMail (UBE or UCE), please send us a message that includes the entire unsolicited eMail you received along with complete headers of the offending message. Please limit your message to essential information that will help us with the investigation of the incident. Personal commentary may delay the processing of your request. Please be advised that we can only address abuse issues for our customers. It is common for SPAM and Usenet abuse to be generated with false or manipulated return addresses. SPAM and/or abuse by other customers should be reported to the Postmaster or Abuse address of the originating domain or service provider for proper handling and disposition. Please look at the full header information, including the information received, to determine the true origin of the eMail. For Usenet, you can use the 'NNTP posting host' IP address or hostname. Please note that due to the volume of eMails we receive, we are not able to respond personally to each message. We do investigate each incident brought to our attention and take corrective action when appropriate. Please feel free to review our Acceptable Use Policy: http://www.webhosting.com/pages/ab_policies.shtml. Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. If you need additional assistance, feel free to contact us at abuse at webhosting.com. Again, thank you for providing us with this information. Many thanks, Abuse team - WebHosting.com www.webhosting.com 1-888-WEB-HOSTING (932-4678) From floop at labyrinth.net.au Sun Dec 2 17:07:13 2001 From: floop at labyrinth.net.au (floop) Date: 02 Dec 2001 15:07:13 -1000 Subject: list Message-ID: <1007341633.96143.0.camel@master.lab.office.labyrinth.net.au> From faustine at lokmail.net Sun Dec 2 14:04:41 2001 From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:04:41 -0500 Subject: in praise of gold Message-ID: <200112022204.RAA27791@mail.lokmail.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at homeport.org Sun Dec 2 15:17:40 2001 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:17:40 -0500 Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality In-Reply-To: References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org> <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <20011202181740.A7089@weathership.homeport.org> On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 03:30:09PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- | | At 1:19 PM -0500 on 12/1/01, Adam Shostack wrote: | | | > Right. Now the seller has the cash, and the buyer has nothing. | > The seller has lost only the future value of the nym, which was | > presumably accounted for in the price. The seller loses no "real" | > reputation, because the nym can't be tied back to the is-a-person | > seller. The buyer, meanwhile, is out the price of the nym, and | > must either | > destroy the nym in order to ensure that the seller actually loses | > all that value, or accept damaged goods. | > | > So, why would a buyer agree to such a transaction, where he will | > remain at the mercy of the seller? | | I look at nyms as a contingent claim on some asset, which should be | handled just as any other security. Certainly you can destroy the | value of a nym, just like you can any real property, but it might be | better not to do that. I agree with something that Wei Dai said a | long time ago that any nym would only be worth it's ability to | control some independantly-verified asset, though, which, frankly, is | as it should be when you think about it. In which case, you might be better off transferring the asset, rather than the nym. | Just to sort of thrash things a bit, in a capital markets | transaction, an exchange isn't such a hard thing to do, in the sense | that a secondary bearer-form asset transaction (primary is like an | IPO, or, for cash, a collateral asset conversion like an ATM | transaction), cash for bond, say, would require the participation of | the underwriters in the exchange protocol. Yeah, mature markets solve problems. How to create a mature market is a question that apparently can't be solved for all the tea in China, or all the oil in Russia. Not that I think the solution is all that hard; reading Smith, Hayek, Friedman, Nozick and some other smart people gives you a very clear map, but the folks with the guns over there still haven't read Olsen's last book (thanks), where he explains that thugs do better to let the economy grow than to take all the money at once. Something about the first hundred names in the Cambridge phone book springs to mind. | Just to sort of thrash things a bit, in a capital markets | transaction, an exchange isn't such a hard thing to do, in the sense | that a secondary bearer-form asset transaction (primary is like an | IPO, or, for cash, a collateral asset conversion like an ATM | transaction), cash for bond, say, would require the participation of | the underwriters in the exchange protocol. [...] | At primary issuance, a trustee is involved, so, that probably | supervises the Underwriter, who ever it is owns the underwriting | engine. The above should hold for all kinds of unique, uncopyable | things, teleoperated surgery, or opinions, for instance. A nym is none of these. | I expect, for physical goods, some variant of this model holds, | because there's someone responsible for the physical supervision of a | given asset with a net-based audit/authentication of that supervision | of some kind, signed video, or whatever. Or these. | For "software", in the Gary Becker sense of something that can be | copied, all we're really looking for is something which authenticates | that a given copy of an information good is in fact signed by the | person proported to be the "author" of that information/content/code. | Coupled with a decent third-party time-signature mechanism, you're | fine, because, after the first copy, such a good is a purely fungible | commodity ala Hughes' "Institutional Piracy", or the Agoric guys' | "digital silk road", or my "recursive geodesic auction" stuff. Such | situations are classic examples of so-called "perfect competition", | as found in physical graded-commodity markets everywhere. So here's the rub. A nym (as I'm using the term) is control over a private key thats associated with some reputation, which Alice is trying to sell to Bob. Alice can not provide direct assurance that she won't keep copies of the thing she's selling. Through intermediaries, Bob can buy some insurance that the revocation games Alice can play are limited. How valuable that insurance is depends on the trustworthiness of the intermediaries, how likely the reliant parties are to properly check signatures, and the value of social engineering in a field where process issues are not yet well understood. (See also http://www.seifried.org/security/articles/20011023-devil-in-details.html ) There might be a relationship here to the sale of music bits; the RIAA is all worked up over issues of how do they sell the same bits over and over. If you can answer the question of "How to sell a set of bits exactly once?" you may be able to answer the question "How to ensure that I don't keep a copy of those bits?" or "How do I sell a million people copies of the same bits without them transferring them around." The problems are not identical, but some of the same sorts of solutions may help. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From pc2nups at pon.net Sun Dec 2 18:18:24 2001 From: pc2nups at pon.net (pc2nups at pon.net) Date: 02 Dec 2001 18:18:24 -0800 Subject: WE NEED YOUR HELP!-ADV Message-ID: <200112030215.SAA07095@toad.com> If you received this email by mistake and wish to be removed, scroll to the bottom of the page and follow the instructions. PC 2NUPS, Inc. 783 Rio Del Mar Blvd. Aptos, CA 95003 800-PC2NUPS 831-662-3600 100 COMPUTERS AT HUGE DISCOUNT! On September 8, 2001 one of our best customers ordered 100 Micron PCs at $499 each. Dutifully, we called our vendor and placed the order. On September 12, 2001, our customer called and cancelled their order due to the events the previous day. We tried to cancel our order but our vendor refused to take them back. NOW WE ARE STUCK WITH 100 COMPUTERS WE MUST SELL! These are brand new 750 Mhz PCs with 128 MB of RAM, 20 Gigabyte hard disk drives, 52X CD-ROMS, 56K PCI modems, 32 MB ATI Xpert2000 Pro AGP video cards, integrated sound adapters, Mitsumi 1.44 floppy, mouse and keyboard. Manufactured by Micron, a NYSE company! Our misfortune is your opportunity! We have no choice! We can't send them back and we can't store them. We have to sell them even if we don't make a profit! We have decided to lower the price on these 100 computers to just $389! An almost unheard of bargin. You'll save $110! We have just 100 of these computers to sell at this low price. When they are gone, your chance to save on a great computer system by a top notch company will go with them. 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It was submitted by (HENRYHUNTERJR34500 at xpx.com) on Sunday, December 2, 2001 at 16:45:34 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- message: 
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From hardatwork at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  2 17:48:51 2001
From: hardatwork at yahoo.com (hardatwork at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:48:51 -0700
Subject: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: The media report
Message-ID: <200112030146.RAA06347@toad.com>



From 4255937travelincentives at aol.com  Sun Dec  2 19:42:55 2001
From: 4255937travelincentives at aol.com (4255937travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:42:55
Subject: 7496           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  5593742
Message-ID: <200112021142.DAA14214@rs211.d3tech.com>


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From 4256125travelincentives at aol.com  Sun Dec  2 19:42:56 2001
From: 4256125travelincentives at aol.com (4256125travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:42:56
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Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:42:57
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From rah at shipwright.com  Sun Dec  2 16:54:43 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:54:43 -0500
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011202181740.A7089@weathership.homeport.org>
References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org>
 
 <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org>
 
 <20011202181740.A7089@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 8561 bytes
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From usa at registeredsite.com  Sun Dec  2 17:05:42 2001
From: usa at registeredsite.com (usa at registeredsite.com)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 20:05:42 -0500
Subject: Fw: Christmas Cash Alert Call
Message-ID: <200112030008.fB308eX14148@mail4.registeredsite.com>



From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 01:32:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 20:32:59 +1100
Subject: p-p survSOC
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202203232.00a32430@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: The P2P surveillance society approaches...


http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~kostas/omni.html
"The Page of Omnidirectional Vision"

Bunch o'links to commercial and research work on omnidirectional vision
systems, including novel cameras and software to stitch the images together.

The FlyCam work at FujiXerox Palo Alto Labs (FXPal) is particularly
interesting, since it is comparatively low cost, done mostly with
off-the-shelf hardware.
http://www.fxpal.com/smartspaces/flycam/flycam_home.htm

Those of you who know about the Aspen Movie Map, a virtual reality tour of
Aspen, Colorado performed in 1979
   will find the
FlyAbout work to be familiar:
http://www.fxpal.com/smartspaces/FlyAbout/index.htm

The big difference is that now this capability is possible using standard,
stock equipment. Oh, and having GPS around is a big help too.


How do we make the surveillance society
 from these pieces? Miniaturize the
cameras and associated electronics, and have a large number of people wear
one. So far, just like in David Brin's novel "Earth"
.

Everyone records omnidirectional images of their surroundings, and records
the positions they were in.

Now, combine this with Peer-to-Peer technology. Allow everyone to search
everyone else's image banks, based on geographic information. This require
shifting existing P2P technology from a music-based metadata schema to one
that is geospatially based. The schemas already exist:
.

Key factors keeping us from the surveillance society:
* the cameras are too heavy, and too expensive
* disk space is still too expensive (for compact, portable memory)
* wireless transmission rates are still too slow
* wireless access is not yet ubiquitous

But, I think you'll agree that none of these are fundamental limitations
(i.e., fixing these does not require breaking physical laws).

When will we start seeing the start of the peer-to-peer surveillance
society? I give it 10 years, maybe less.

- Jim




From jonnyweron at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  2 12:32:59 2001
From: jonnyweron at hotmail.com (Jonny Weron)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 20:32:59 +0000
Subject: 256 Bit Encryption for Secure Email and Secure Online File Storage 
Message-ID: 


>Another proprietary key format. Why not base such a system on OpenPGP?
>
>Hmm. AES-256 with SHA-256? Children, what's wrong with the balance
>in this system?
>
>How does a user verify authenticity of another user's public key?
>
>Aside from being incompatible with anything else on the net, how is this
>different or more secure than Hushmail? Than Cryptomail.org?


The AES-256 is used independently from SHA-256 and for a different purpose.  
One is used for encryption, the other for hashing.  If you�d like to match 
crypto level provided by the hash, you would have to apply something like 
SHA-512, but that is irrelevant.  SHA-256 is a convenient way of hashing 
passphrases into 256-bit symmetric key-material used to initialize key 
vectors in the AES.  I would suggest you should look into the source code 
(available from the CryptoHeaven 
web site) before making such trivial but misleading comments.
Also, proprietary key format is not such a bad idea as long as the source is 
open for review.  OpenPGP standard involves much more than simple RSA key, 
and any software using it is prone to the possible errors that may come with 
it.  Making a simpler key format with only the very things that are 
necessary make it easier to maintain and it is easier to verify correctness 
of implementation.

So what about Hushmail you ask.  For one, CryptoHeaven does not require you 
to send your encrypted private key to the server making CryptoHeaven a much 
more secure solution.  Furthermore, CryptoHeaven includes things like secure 
multi party folder sharing and multi user discussions which are not 
available in other systems.




_________________________________________________________________
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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 01:47:37 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 20:47:37 +1100
Subject: News we can use
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011202204045.00a37b30@pop.useoz.com>


"May's handlers are panicking."
In spite of alpha baboons best efforts to lead c/punk revolution up racist 
and capitalist cul de sacs.

Subject: capitalism in america
Anyone who reads this book should recognize Alan Greenspan, Phil Gramm,
Milton Friedman, and David Horowitz for the lying charlatans they are.
Anyone who reads this book should realize the Democrat party is as much
the party of the propertied class as the Republican party. And anyone who
thinks the there is any worthiness to capitalism as an economic system, or
who believes the propertied class is not waging unremitting class war
against eveyone else should consider the words, not of Karl Marx, but of
Abraham Lincoln: "These capitalists act harmoniously and in concert to
fleece the people."
Malthus, Ricardo, Adam Smith--to see they fully
understood what they were creating. They knew capitalism would be a
tremendously productive economic system; but, as they followed the logic
of the economic principles they were developing and articulating, they
also realized it was a system which eventually reduces virtually the
entire population of capitalist societies to starvation while all the
wealth becomes vested in the hands of an ever shrinking elite. As they
themselves predicted, capitalism is an economic system which ultimately
destroys itself and takes everyone with it. It, quite literally, is the
Titanic of economic systems; and its advocates preach it is unsinkable.
Because the version of capitalism practiced in most European nations is
not as pure, not as true to the principles of capitalist ideology as in
the U.S., the inherently destructive consequences of the ideology are not
as pronounced and as profound as in the U.S. The European nations may be
"behind" us, but what is happening here will happen to them; it is
inherent in the logic of capitalist ideology.
Tims opinions of jews are well documented.So long mate,Its been real.




From info4profit at alloymail.com  Sun Dec  2 21:20:09 2001
From: info4profit at alloymail.com (info4profit at alloymail.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:20:09
Subject: Fresh, Cost-effective Leads For Your MLM or Business Opportunity      
Message-ID: <3C0694E500001B30@dldatactr.dlevans.com> (added by dldatactr.dlevans.com)

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From cme at acm.org  Sun Dec  2 21:24:56 2001
From: cme at acm.org (Carl Ellison)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 21:24:56 -0800
Subject: CFP: PKI research workshop
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011202212332.033c6960@idiom.com>

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From info4profit at alloymail.com  Sun Dec  2 21:52:19 2001
From: info4profit at alloymail.com (info4profit at alloymail.com)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:52:19
Subject: Fresh, Cost-effective Leads For Your MLM or Business Opportunity   
Message-ID: <3C0694E500003F3E@dldatactr.dlevans.com> (added by dldatactr.dlevans.com)

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From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Sun Dec  2 22:15:20 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:15:20 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 12:29:07PM -0600
References: <3C09CD31.10863.4D32372@localhost> 
Message-ID: <20011202221520.B841@navel.introspect>

on Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 12:29:07PM -0600, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
> 
> > Our main interest in reputations is that the value of
> > someone's reputation will stop them from doing bad things.
> 
> Actually not, most folks use reputations to do away with security checks
> they would use othewise. It's a sellers cost cutting measure. If you have
> a 'good' reputation my cost of diong secure and reliable business will
> probably(!!!) be lower.

Empirically demonstrated, on eBay, per the Economist.  Premium content
online:

http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%26%2BX8%2EQQ%23%25%0A


Nutshell summary:  reputation nets a 6.8% price advantage (a photo gets
you 11.3%).

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 06:15:28 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 01:15:28 +1100
Subject: Project hammer
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203010704.00a1aeb0@pop.useoz.com>


Sorry for that P-P SOC post,It was supposed to come to me,I blame a 
thunderstorm here and a change of firewall.
The following is something Id like some more information on along with all 
you've got on an alleged echelon base in Dominica.Its private,runs on 
geothermal and may have access to pine gap,omega,singSAT,etc 
TIA.matty.themoonisaS+Mmisstress.Taylor.PS.Hope the change to Mojo goes as 
well as the euro switch.

Subject: project hammer file


US Brigadier General Erle Cocke, a major player in
the world of covert operations and the former Washington "office" of the
CIA's
Nugan Hand Bank.


Erle Cocke was a banker before a black operative - but he combined both
skills working quietly as a fixer for "every President since Truman." He
was an Alternate Executive Director of the World Bank for four years and a
member of the US delegation to the UN for two years running, with the pay
and
rank of a US Ambassador. General Cocke was also a Knight of Malta and a
Shriner Mason. He died 10 days after making his deposition.


What he says in his deposition is explosive. He leaves no doubt about the
reality of the secretive world of Collateral Trading Programmes and how they
produce "from thin air" hundreds of billions and trillions of dollars in the
blink of an electronic eye.


* Once created these slush funds are used in a variety of way. Read how.


* Find out why former Nugan Hand Bank boss, General Erle Cocke, fingers
former Citibank Chairman & CEO, John Reed.


* Learn how TRILLIONS of dollars are created in the blink of an electronic
eye for later use in covert operations.


* See how the dirty profits from the drugs n' guns trade are privately
laundered
through the banking system -- it isn't like you think it is.


* Discover the South African connection to the Nugan Hand story.


* Read how the Chinese military controlled the South African spook bank that
took over where Nugan Hand Bank left off. Why was a mainland Chinese General
in the Seventh Army region of Xin Xong running this bank?


* What was East Germany's Stasi intelligence connection to this whole
affair?


* What about the NEW French Connection? Seven months before the Berlin Wall
came down, did the French central bank issue a US$7 billion Gold Bullion
Certificate to Erich Honecker, East Germany's then Head of State?


* How do Britain's private spook and intelligence network, Executive
Outlines and Sandline, fit in to this picture?


These and many other issues are addressed in the ground-breaking story THE
PROJECT HAMMER FILE, the first of many other revelations to come.


David Guyatt

THE PROJECT HAMMER FILE




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 01:27:21 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 01:27:21 -0800
Subject: 256 Bit Encryption for Secure Email and Secure Online File
  Storage
In-Reply-To: 
References: <000401c17a53$321cff80$5a01a8c0@adam>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011202163543.033ae5b0@idiom.com>


At 04:31 PM 12/01/2001 -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:
>Another proprietary key format. Why not base such a system on OpenPGP?

OpenPGP, ClosedPGP, GPG, PGP2.x, and X.509 all have blazingly ugly data 
formats,
especially for keys.  The main advantages of recycling one of the
N variations on PGP formats or one of the K variations on X.509
are that you can reuse code, and in some cases you can gain compatibility
with existing user bases.  On the other hand, you can gain compatibility
with existing user bases by letting PGP users sign messages saying
"My Cryptoheaven Public Key For Messages is  and for Signatures is 
"
and similarly letting X.509 users do the same if they want.
It's not automated, but it can work ok.

Also, of course, you'd need to register the Rijndael and SHA-256
entities onto the **PG** formatspaces, but they're generally designed for it.

The cleanest key format I've seen is in CryptoKong - it has the
advantage that Elliptic Curve cryptosystems let you use short keys,
at least if you believe that the math works adequately,
and it's not trying to use any "KeyID" as an abbreviation for the key,
so it's just a simple direct encoding of the key,
without PGP's annoyances of KeyID lookup and risks of KeyID forgery.
Of course, it's also not mapping KeyIDs to users, only to messages,
so if you want to maintain relationships between them,
you've got to do it yourself, and if you want to have
senders of some messages vet senders of other messages,
you need to track the messages yourself.  James Donald's implementation
uses an Evil Microsoft Access database to save messages,
but you could do a different implementation if you wanted to.

Was the real motivation for using their own format simplicity?
Or not-invented-here-ness?  Or not-thinking-ness?
Or unwillingness to wade through the huge amount of existing ugly code
just for compatibility with existing ugly formats?
Does it matter much?  They're in the Software / Internet Services business,
so either they'll find a niche where they get lots of users
(in which case it's worth reviewing their code for real security),
or they'll fail to do so and Darwin Will Get Them,
like so many other projects out there, or they'll end up with a
small but fanatic group of users who keep them going,
or somebody will discover a Serious Bug which will blow away their security
(though they do have at least semi-open source available for review.)




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 01:56:55 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 01:56:55 -0800
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3C069E70.7148.4E7CF4@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203014543.033d2c10@idiom.com>


That traceroute looks suspiciously like it's going to
Philadelphia.  (Second prize, TWO nameservers in Philadelphia...)
The www site's there also, safely and reliably on dry land.

However, if you do a traceroute to Ryan's remailer.havenco.com,
you'll see a path that goes quickly to London, to "unknown.level3.net",
then quickly to "havenco-gw", then with much more delay to
213.169.220.162, then with similar delay to remailer.havenco.com.

Havenco's talked for a while about metastasizing,
putting servers in a bunch of places for reliable fast performance
for non-critical data and mainly keeping the critical database parts
and more paranoid material over in Sealand.
Certainly they'd want to have basic advertising material
and some of their DNS mirrors on dry land.

Also, it's interesting that the whois record for havenco.com
is registered from Cyprus.


At 11:00 PM 11/29/2001 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>
> > And when victory was well in hand, they shut down not merely
> > havenco,
>
>Looks OK to me:
>
>Tracing route to havenco.com [207.106.3.14]
>
>over a maximum of 30 hops:
>
>   1   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  r01.fl.datapacket.net [208.195.14.225]
>   2   <10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  loopback0.gw8.orl1.alter.net [137.39.8.117]
>   3    20 ms    40 ms    20 ms  165.at-1-0-0.xr1.atl1.alter.net 
> [152.63.86.170]
>   4    10 ms    20 ms    20 ms  100.at-1-0-0.tr1.atl1.alter.net 
> [146.188.232.82]
>   5    20 ms    31 ms    30 ms  109.at-5-0-0.tr1.dca6.alter.net 
> [146.188.141.58]
>   6    30 ms    30 ms    30 ms  0.so-4-0-0.xr1.dca6.alter.net 
> [152.63.11.102]
>   7    30 ms    30 ms    30 ms  0.so-1-3-0.xl1.dca6.alter.net 
> [152.63.35.114]
>   8    30 ms    31 ms    30 ms  pos6-0.br3.dca6.alter.net [152.63.38.117]
>   9    30 ms    30 ms    40 ms  204.255.174.74
>  10    30 ms    60 ms    31 ms  mae-east-gsr.dc-core.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.31.26]
>  11   120 ms   280 ms   310 ms  mae-east.dc-core.netaxs.net [207.106.31.29]
>  12    30 ms    30 ms    40 ms  dc-l3.dc-core.fddi0-0-100m.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.127.102]
>  13    40 ms    40 ms    40 ms  phl-l3.phl-core.h3-0-45m.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.127.129]
>  14    30 ms    30 ms    40 ms  l3-core1-oc3.sdfc.phl.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.3.246]
>  15    60 ms    41 ms    40 ms  core1-cnsh-gige-1.cnsh.phl.netaxs.net 
> [207.106.0.10]
>  16    40 ms    40 ms    40 ms  ns1.havenco.com [207.106.3.14]
>
>Trace complete.
>
>
>The www site is up too.  Possibly you misunderstood their temporary outage?





From isn at c4i.org  Mon Dec  3 00:04:24 2001
From: isn at c4i.org (InfoSec News)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 02:04:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [ISN] InfoSec News List Information
Message-ID: 

Just a little note, if you know of another site archiving ISN posts,
please drop me a line so I can list them on the webpages and such.

Thanks!

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wk at c4i.org

-=-

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[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 02:23:41 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 02:23:41 -0800
Subject: Bookstores and von Mises - was: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011129173020.A7819@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203020427.033da690@idiom.com>


At 10:36 PM 11/29/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>ps What kind of bookstore would have books about von Mises' life and
>economic philosophy in their economic section but wouldn't actually carry
>any of his work, what's up with that...Barnes & Nobles?

von Mises has been dead for a while and his publisher is
probably not actively running wholesale specials.

Besides, he's like one of those Tedious Dead White Male Classics authors;
nobody actually reads him, they just read commentaries
or literary criticisms on him, or the Cliff Notes or comic-book
"von Mises For Beginners" versions (don't know if they've done him,
but the Heidegger one makes it palatable to at least approach Heidegger* :-)
or more likely, economics/politics textbooks by people who have occasional
references to von Mises but haven't actually read his work,
just the commentaries/litcrit/cliffnotes/comics about him.

An interesting "why don't bookstores carry ____" event happened a
couple of years ago.  Some lefties ranting for independent bookstores
and against big chain bookstores here in San Francisco commented that
"if you look in the big box monoculture bookstores, you won't find Chomsky"
(I think this was a Tom Tomorrow cartoon - bookstore droid replies
"Politics?  We've got lots of Rush Limbaugh over in Aisle 7")
A couple weeks later I looked at Borders, and sure enough they had
several Chomsky titles in their index and at least one on the shelf.
Don't know if they'd always been there, or if it was a rapid response
by a very clueful big chain trying to head off bad publicity
and zoning hassles.

                                         Bill

(*One-line summary of Heidegger:
You're going to die and be really truly dead.  Get used to it and quit 
bullshitting.)




From zetaportsend at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 04:30:58 2001
From: zetaportsend at yahoo.com (Valerie Patterson)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 04:30:58
Subject: Hey you.
Message-ID: <90.644662.137944@yahoo.com>



FREE Seduction eBook:

Sweep Women Off Their Feet and Into Your Bed (120 Full Pages!)

+plus

FREE Seduction Articles
FREE Seduction Links


...and much, much more, all under one roof.


Simply reply to this email to receive more information.

To be remove from our mailing list, send and email to:

rem_listsrvr at yahoo.com




From proff at iq.org  Sun Dec  2 09:55:12 2001
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 04:55:12 +1100 (EST)
Subject: dead reporter found in motel
In-Reply-To: <20011202111619.A8097@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: <20011202175512.8F3A1259C3@suburbia.net>


> On Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 10:42:49AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> > That's the first thing you have ever written that was genuinely worth
> > reading!  Keep practicing, and in three or four hundred years you could be
> > the "GreatGreatReallyGreatGrandsonOfGomez(tM)".
> 
> Yeah, it wasn't terrible. But it wasn't up there with the Linux
> Chainsaw Massacre either.
> 
> -Declan

Xenix.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 10:16:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 05:16:11 +1100
Subject: 400 motels
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203045933.00a1e7f0@pop.useoz.com>


Im a writer like your an anarchist.
I did read a funny story in PC authority,this systems consultant gets paid 
an exorbinate fee to test an array for redundancy.
The one and only test is a classic,first ask sweaty designer/contractor; 
"you have absolute faith that taking one server out will not bring down the 
lot?"
When the answer is ,"yes"
Go out to car and come back with large chainsaw,hold over individual 
machine and 'hey presto'
Maybe its not totally secure just yet.
True (magazine) story,I think by guy named 'honeyball.'

I got an offwire from 'pugsley',Ill ask him if you can see it if you 
like.As far as OSD goes,I see the gays are practising strategic melt so Im 
hoping sea sheperd might fill the breach.The lunar anti-abortion right are 
getting a head start!




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 10:25:49 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 05:25:49 +1100
Subject: 'software error' 37,000 to cato.a "libertarian" institute.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203052329.00a202f0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.mediatransparency.org/Stories/bradley_error.htm

Lie down with dogs declan...




From optin_edirect at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 05:38:49 2001
From: optin_edirect at yahoo.com (Alley Maurer)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:38:49
Subject: Hello again.
Message-ID: <35.561638.831538@yahoo.com>



FREE Seduction eBook:

Sweep Women Off Their Feet and Into Your Bed (120 Full Pages!)

+plus

FREE Seduction Articles
FREE Seduction Links


...and much, much more, all under one roof.


Simply reply to this email to receive more information.

To be remove from our mailing list, send and email to:

rem_listsrvr at yahoo.com




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 11:18:02 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:18:02 +1100
Subject: VOTE for DECLAN
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203061558.00a258c0@pop.useoz.com>


The Milton Friedman Prize for the Advancement of Liberty
The first Milton Friedman Prize will be presented at the Cato Institute's 
25th anniversary dinner May 9, 2002. The $500,000 cash award will be 
presented to one individual whose accomplishments and achievements best 
advance the cause of liberty. Click here for more information and to 
nominate someone for the award.

OR arbusto pinochet or roger in NZ,hell vote for ME!




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 11:40:11 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 06:40:11 +1100
Subject: The Cato Institute,a 'Libertarian' organisation.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203063754.00a38c00@pop.useoz.com>


Please join us for a wide-ranging discussion of this subject featuring 
Timothy Lynch, director, Project on Criminal Justice, Cato Institute; 
Michael Nardotti, Major General, U. S. Army (ret.), former Judge Advocate 
General; Lee Casey, Baker & Hostetler; and Joseph Robert Barnes, Brigadier 
General, U.S. Army (ret.), former Assistant Judge Advocate General for 
Military Law.
What's In a Label?: Right-Wing Think Tanks Often Quoted, ...
... its budget comes from corporate donations. ... 1,323, 1,401. Cato 
Institute, conservative/libertarian,
1,286, 1 ... RAND Corporation, center-right, 865, 826. Council ...
www.fair.org/extra/9805/think-tanks.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

The Think Tank Spectrum
... Backed by corporate funding, including donations ... Cato Institute, 
conservative/libertarian,
1163. RAND Corporation, center-right, 795. Urban Institute, ...
www.fair.org/extra/9605/tank.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.fair.org ]

The Swarm Of The Right: Myth Of The Liberal Media
... think tanks - Brookings, Cato, Heritage and AEI, all conservative or 
centrist -
were ... tanks - especially right and center ... are largely 
corporate-funded, and ...
www.commondreams.org/views/061900-101.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

IPA Articles - Cato Institute
... Libertarian" in a Corporate Way. ... book "No Mercy: How Conservative 
Think Tanks and ... over
the years. Cato's main philanthropic backing ... come from the right-wing 
Koch ...
Description: Article explores the Cato Institute's funding and advocacy, 
which include large tobacco industry funding...
Category: Health > Addictions > Substance Abuse > Tobacco > Industry > 
Supporters
www.accuracy.org/articles/cato.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

Left, Right & Babyboom: America's New Politics
... authors in Left, Right & Babyboom: America's ... H. Crane President, 
Cato Institute;
Marvin ... Liberal and Conservative; William Schneider ... of the Corporate 
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www.cato.org/pubs/books/left-rgt.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Activism, Co-op America: green, responsible, sustainable, just ...
... foundation and the Cato Institute have not ... corporate giving extend? 
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with a strong conservative ethic support the far right through their ...
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Chart B: The Funders of the Attack on Environmental ...
... the leaders in corporate-funded grassroots political ... Enterprise 
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www.corpwatch.org/trac/greenwash/ed_chart2.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

Wealthy think tanks CAQ
... target network; and Corporate Relations to business and ... immigration 
policy; the Cato
Forum on the ... with the right-wing Family ... of the conservative 
revolution" at ...
www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Democracy/WealthyThinkTanks.html - 13k - Cached 
- Similar pages

TAP: Vol 9, Iss. 40. Lessons of Right-Wing Philanthropy. ...
... identified less often. Corporate funders were rarely ... ideologically 
explicit Heritage,
Cato, and American ... politics of right-wing think ... Conservative think 
tanks ...
www.prospect.org/print/V9/40/paget-k.html - 48k - Cached - Similar pages 




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 12:05:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 07:05:21 +1100
Subject: HAZMAT Licence's for sale
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203065115.00a3b7b0@pop.useoz.com>


Tony Soprano's international waste recycling arm has authorized me to offer 
you several toxic waste disposal licences for a brief time 
only.Specializing in glowing radioactive waste is the safest level since 
emile had that accident with the liquid acid.Dont forget you can 
sub-contract,just keep a few gold dump trucks handy.Leave encrypted bids at 
NJ IMC or deli me.

Theres a piece on ideological toxic waste disposal at 
http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=15739&group=webcast




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 12:21:09 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 07:21:09 +1100
Subject: : Guardian Unlimited Observer | International | FBI agents
  rebel over new powers  
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203071453.00a3f9d0@pop.useoz.com>


Thanks james,this is exciting news,makes it easier to smoke out the evil 
doers and get them on the run.

Subject: ashcroft and Muellar.Pork belly futures market.Online shortselling 
P.I.Gs
(persons impersonating govt servants)
"The Internet is a virtual place where copies of everything proliferate. 
There are no Internet authorities as such, with the exception of those 
whose task is to make the net function. It doesn't have an owner, and won't 
unless a super-power emerges to control it," he told the Weekly. 
Cyberspace, he argued, belongs to all those who participate in it. "We 
cannot let it be a playground where only cats are allowed in and mice are 
banished."'('Naguib.egypt poet/rebel )

Or...R.A.T.S... radical assembly of tactical sentencing.An operation soft 
drill international co-production now collecting for the ashcroft to 
arlington airfare defrayal fund,please pledge generously,thanks.(my proffr 
1$)More to Follow.Mmmmmmmm.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 13:06:46 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:06:46 +1100
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist (Im a libertarian socialist!)
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203073248.00a235f0@pop.useoz.com>


"Anarcho capitalism corresponds to what any normal person
would call anarchy"

Who said I was normal? Normal for norte america Yes,maybe.(just say 'so')

>Explanations of "anarcho" socialism are evasive, euphemistic
>and full of equivocations

I dont remember seeing any,Its usually anarchism or libertarian socialism 
or anarcho-syndicalism Isnt it?

When they go into detail, for
example par-econ, they describe in pleasant sounding words a
system more centralized and authoritarian in form and theory
than Stalin's was in form and theory, and often more
centralized and authoritarian even in theory than Maoism was
in actual practice.

I dont recall.Could you cite anarchist stalins and mao's,please?

"before 1936 there were various unclear,
confused, self contradictory, but undeniably sincere
proposals as to how to implement anarcho socialism"

Such as Italian factory occupations?Malatesta who predicted ww2 as ww1 
started was confused? What you say may be true but does it apply to 
anarcho-SYNDICALISM?
Unclear,confused, self contradictory, but undeniably insincere seems to 
apply to someone.

"Then
disaster struck. They actually had a go at it, with entirely
predictable results.  The contradiction between socialism and
anarchism was demonstrated with the usual rivers of blood.
Some became disillusioned.  Some reinterpreted their now
inconvenient past positions as standard socialism. "

Disaster struck for many reasons and it was not all as grim as the stories 
you put on the web.You could cite many more sources on your site that you 
wont thus letting people get away with questioning your honesty and 
motives.I simply agree with those that call you a liar on Spain(you also 
have useful stuff elsewhere, so not being a dead loss)

The anarcho-capitalism you and tim seem so fond of would not survive long 
without all the instruments of state repression backing it up.How long 
would NIKE last in an anarchist world? McDonalds? Monsanto?

Thanks for responding,see you at the 'punks.         matthew  proffr  taylor.

Ive just unpacked my PGP but have yet to read the user manual.The intro by 
phill is cool.Dig sig pending.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Mon Dec  3 08:25:05 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:25:05 -0800
Subject: ashcroft still buggering freedom
Message-ID: <3C0BA761.B9672245@sarin.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nyt/20011201/ts/ashcroft_seeking_to_free_f_b_i_to_spy_on_groups_1.html

Saturday December 01 09:01 AM EST

Ashcroft Seeking to Free F.B.I. to Spy on Groups

By DAVID JOHNSTON and DON VAN NATTA Jr. The New York Times

Attorney General John Ashcroft is considering a plan to relax
restrictions on the F.B.I.'s spying on religious
and political organizations.

                      WASHINGTON, Nov. 30 Attorney General John Ashcroft
is considering a plan to relax
                      restrictions on the F.B.I.'s spying on religious
and political organizations in the United States,
                      senior government officials said today.

                      The proposal would loosen one of the most
fundamental restrictions on the conduct of the
                      Federal Bureau of Investigation and would be
another step by the Bush administration to
                      modify civil-liberties protections as a means of
defending the country against terrorists, the
                      senior officials said.

                      The attorney general's surveillance guidelines
were imposed on the F.B.I. in the 1970's after the
                      death of J. Edgar Hoover and the disclosures that
the F.B.I. had run a widespread domestic
                      surveillance program, called Cointelpro, to
monitor antiwar militants, the Ku Klux Klan, the
                      Black Panthers and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King
Jr., among others, while Mr. Hoover was
                      director.

                      Since then, the guidelines have defined the
F.B.I.'s operational conduct in investigations of
                      domestic and overseas groups that operate in the
United States.

                      Some officials who oppose the change said the
rules had largely kept the F.B.I. out of politically
motivated investigations, protecting the bureau from embarrassment and
lawsuits. But others, including senior Justice
Department officials, said the rules were outmoded and geared to
obsolete investigative methods and had at times
hobbled F.B.I. counterterrorism efforts.

Mr. Ashcroft and the F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, favor the
change, the officials said. Most of the opposition
comes from career officials at the F.B.I. and the Justice Department.

A Justice Department spokeswoman said today that no final decision had
been reached on the revised guidelines.

"As part of the attorney general's reorganization," said Susan Dryden,
the spokeswoman, "we are conducting a
comprehensive review of all guidelines, policies and procedures. All of
these are still under review."

An F.B.I. spokesman said the bureau's approach to terrorism was also
under review.

"Director Mueller's view is that everything should be on the table for
review," the spokesman, John Collingwood, said.
"He is more than willing to embrace change when doing so makes us a more
effective component. A healthy review
process doesn't come at the expense of the historic protections inherent
in our system."

The attorney general is free to revise the guidelines, but Justice
Department officials said it was unclear how heavily they
would be revised. There are two sets of guidelines, for domestic and
foreign groups, and most of the discussion has
centered on the largely classified rules for investigations of foreign
groups.

The relaxation of the guidelines would follow administration measures to
establish military tribunals to try foreigners
accused of terrorism; to seek out and question 5,000 immigrants, most of
them Muslims, who have entered the United
States since January 2000; and to arrest more than 1,200 people, nearly
all of whom are unconnected to the terrorist
attacks of Sept. 11, and hold hundreds of them in jail.

Today, Mr. Ashcroft defended his initiatives in an impassioned speech to
United States attorneys.

"Our efforts have been deliberate, they've been coordinated, they've
been carefully crafted to not only protect America
but to respect the Constitution and the rights enshrined therein," Mr.
Ashcroft said.

"Still," he added, "there have been a few voices who have criticized.
Some have sought to condemn us with faulty facts
or without facts at all. Others have simply rushed to judgment, almost
eagerly assuming the worst of their government
before they've had a chance to understand it at its best."

Under the current surveillance guidelines, the F.B.I. cannot send
undercover agents to investigate groups that gather at
places like mosques or churches unless investigators first find probable
cause, or evidence leading them to believe that
someone in the group may have broken the law. Full investigations of
this sort cannot take place without the attorney
general's consent.

Since Sept. 11, investigators have said, Islamic militants have
sometimes met at mosques apparently knowing that the
religious institutions are usually off limits to F.B.I. surveillance
squads. Some officials are now saying they need broader
authority to conduct surveillance of potential terrorists, no matter
where they are.

Senior career F.B.I. officials complained that they had not been
consulted about the proposed change a criticism they
have expressed about other Bush administration counterterrorism
measures. When the Justice Department decided to
use military tribunals to try accused terrorists, and to interview
thousands of Muslim men in the United States, the
officials said they were not consulted.

Justice Department officials noted that Mr. Mueller had endorsed the
administration's proposals, adding that the
complaints were largely from older F.B.I. officials who were resistant
to change and unwilling to take the aggressive
steps needed to root out terror in the United States. Other officials
said the Justice Department had consulted with F.B.I.
lawyers and some operational managers about the change.

But in a series of recent interviews, several senior career officials at
the F.B.I. said it would be a serious mistake to
weaken the guidelines, and they were upset that the department had not
clearly described the proposed changes.

"People are furious right now very, very angry," one of them said. "They
just assume they know everything. When you
don't consult with anybody, it sends the message that you assume you
know everything. And they don't know
everything."

Still, some complaints seem to stem from the F.B.I.'s shifting status
under Mr. Ashcroft. Weakened by a series of
problems that predated the Sept. 11 attacks, the F.B.I. has been forced
to follow orders from the Justice Department a
change that many law enforcement experts thought was long overdue. In
the past, the bureau leadership had far more
independence and authority to make its own decisions.

Several senior officials are leaving the F.B.I., including Thomas J.
Pickard, the deputy director. He was the senior
official in charge of the investigation of the attacks and was among top
F.B.I. officials who were opposed to another
decision of the Bush administration, the public announcements of Oct. 12
and Oct. 29 that placed the country on the
highest state of alert in response to vague but credible threats of a
possible second terrorist attack. Mr. Pickard is said to
have been opposed to publicizing threats that were too vague to provide
any precautionary advice.

Many F.B.I. officials regard the administration's plan to establish
military tribunals as an extreme step that diminishes the
F.B.I.'s role because it creates a separate prosecutorial system run by
the military.

"The only thing I have seen about the tribunals is what I have seen in
the newspapers," a senior official complained.

Another official said many senior law enforcement officials shared his
concern about the tribunals. "I believe in the rule
of law, and I believe if we have a case to make against someone, we
should make it in a federal courtroom in the United
States," he said.

Several senior F.B.I. officials said the tribunal system should be
reserved for senior Al Qaeda members apprehended by
the military in Afghanistan or other foreign countries.

Few were involved in deliberations that led to the directive Mr.
Ashcroft issued this month to interview immigrant men
living legally in the United States. F.B.I. officials have complained
that the interview plan was begun before its
ramifications were fully understood.

"None of this was thought through, a senior official said. "They just
announced it, and left it to others to figure out how
to do it."

The arrests and detentions of more than 1,200 people since Sept. 11 have
also aroused concerns at the F.B.I. Officials
noted that the investigations had found no conspirators in the United
States who aided the hijackers in the Sept. 11
attacks and only a handful of people who were considered Al Qaeda
members.

"This came out of the White House, and Ashcroft's office," a senior
official said. "There are tons of things coming out
of there these days where there is absolutely no consultation with the
bureau."

Some at the F.B.I. have been openly skeptical about claims that some of
the 1,200 people arrested were Al Qaeda
members and that the strategy of making widespread arrests had disrupted
or thwarted planned attacks.

"It's just not the case," an official said. "We have 10 or 12 people we
think are Al Qaeda people, and that's it. And for
some of them, it's based only on conjecture and suspicion."




From hakkin at sarin.com  Mon Dec  3 08:34:49 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 08:34:49 -0800
Subject: Reichstag Anthrax: not just greenpeace suggesting it..
Message-ID: <3C0BA9A9.8D97AA8@sarin.com>


excerpt from http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/03/national/03POWD.html

The preliminary analysis of the powder
shows that it has the same extraordinarily high concentration of deadly
spores as the
anthrax produced in the American weapons program. While it is still
possible that the
anthrax could have a foreign source, the concentration is higher than
any stock publicly
known to be produced by other governments.

The similarity to the levels achieved by the United States military
lends support to the idea
that someone with ties to the old program may be behind the attacks that
have killed five
people. The Federal Bureau of Investigation recently expanded its
investigation of anthrax
suspects to include government and contractor laboratories as a possible
source of the
deadly powder itself, or of knowledge of how to make it.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Mon Dec  3 09:26:19 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:26:19 -0800
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <3C0B81AE.B85212C8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3C0B453B.25540.F81AC27@localhost>


On 3 Dec 2001, at 13:44, Ken Brown wrote:

> All the discussion about certificates of speaking Navajo or whatever are
> slightly beside the point. If personal reputation, as such, has a market
> value it isn't the money you'd get by selling the reputation, because as
> everyone else already pointed out, if you could sell it, it wouldn't
> really be a reputation. 

Well, I thought so, but apparently not everyone does, since there's
been a certain amount of discussion as to whether a nym might be
sold (with associated reputation) and if so how it might be 
accomplished. 

>The market value of a personal reputation is the
> extra money you could get by selling something else, backed by that
> reputation.
> 

OK, I like this as the basis of the value of a repuation  in the 
specific context of an entity that sells goods and services.
I think the concept of reputation in the sense of, say, something
that helps you identify posts worth reading is sufficiently
different as to merit separate discussion. But back to your
above statement. Obviously the value of the rep isn't the
extra you get from a single transaction.  Does it seem reasonable 
to say that  the total value of the rep should be the total
annual extra you get from having the rep times some constant?
I think technically it should be the discounted future value stream,
but I think that works out to be pretty much the same thing.  

George




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Dec  3 06:28:16 2001
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:28:16 -0500
Subject: [ISN] InfoSec News List Information
Message-ID: 


--- begin forwarded text



From jamesd at echeque.com  Mon Dec  3 09:37:46 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:37:46 -0800
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist (Im a libertarian socialist!)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203073248.00a235f0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0B47EA.3038.67418E@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > "Anarcho capitalism corresponds to what any normal person
> > would call anarchy"

mattd
> Who said I was normal?

If you use the word anarchy to refer to something that is
very far from anarchy as it is normally understood, without
explaining that you are using a special and unusual meaning,
this is lying.  If you were to say:

: : 	"I am an anarchist, but by anarchist I mean a
: : 	really really really democratic and decentralized
: : 	government exercising all power and total power
: : 	over every person's action and every good, with a
: : 	general committee to decide all matters of
: : 	general interest and authorize any truly
: : 	necessary use of force"

most people would say:
: :	 "You are not an anarchist, you are a democratic
: :	 socialist -- we already went through that stuff
: :	 in the twentieth century. On those rare
: :	 occasions when they were both actually
: :	 democratic, and actually socialist, the economy
: :	 collapsed and they got voted out the next
: :	 elections."

James A. Donald:
> When they go into detail, for example par-econ, they
> describe in pleasant sounding words a system more
> centralized and authoritarian in form and theory than
> Stalin's was in form and theory, and often more centralized
> and authoritarian even in theory than Maoism was in actual
> practice.

mattd:
> I dont recall.Could you cite anarchist stalins and
> mao's,please?

If you call the what the authors of ParEcon propose
anarchism, then PolPot was as much an anarchist as they were,
Stalin ten times as much an anarchist as they were, and Mao
one hundred times.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     OQYECo7+gyIrQKctq60cC1UvKMKkPdfA7ARhBGkw
     4UK2wPuK5XGJbFyc2DKUBMmRzR7WU8jLgbvndXR7N




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 09:46:52 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 09:46:52 -0800
Subject: IT revealed: Dean Kamen shows off mystery transportion
  device
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203095050.023a5150@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203092852.033cd630@idiom.com>


At 09:53 AM 12/03/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh forwarded articles on
the Ginger Hype Generation Machine finally being revealed.

Boy, what bad timing Kamen has.  Not only is it too late for
Christmas sales (if in fact the things are shipping anytime soon,
as opposed to this being a demo for next Christmas shipping),
but overall it's a year or two too late to catch the Razor Scooter fad
and the San Francisco geek toys market, where there are
some people still commuting on $500 electric scooters
(Doug Barnes used to haul one on Caltrain, for instance),
but an N-thousand-dollar device that's only usable for short hauls
within cities, it'll be a real tough sell.

The real question is whether, next year when he's trying to sell quantity,
anybody will list to the next round of hype.  On the other hand,
this announcement is at least timed to keep people from
totally forgetting him as more dot-com vaporware,
so maybe it's not that bad timing after all.




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Dec  3 07:02:44 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:02:44 -0500 (est)
Subject: Fw: [Fwd: Fw: Cow philosophy] (fwd)
Message-ID: 


Speaking of cows and poly-ticks...



THE "TWO COW" EXPLANATION OF WHAT MAKES...



A CHRISTIAN DEMOCRAT:
You have two cows.You keep one and give one to your neighbor.



A SOCIALIST:
You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your
neighbor.



AN AMERICAN REPUBLICAN:
You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So what?



AN AMERICAN DEMOCRAT:
You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You feel guilty for being
successful. You vote people into office who tax your cows, forcing you
to sell one to raise money to pay the tax. The people you voted for then
take the tax money and buy a cow and give it to your neighbor. You feel
righteous.



A COMMUNIST:
You have two cows. The government seizes both and provides you with
milk.



A FASCIST:
You have two cows. The government seizes both and sells you the milk.
You join the underground and start a campaign of sabotage.



DEMOCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE:
You have two cows. The government taxes you to the point you have to
sell both to support a man in a foreign country who has only one cow,
which was a gift from your government.



CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE:
You have two cows. You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.



BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE:
You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the
other, pays you for the milk, then pours the milk down the drain.



AN AMERICAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk
of four cows. You are surprised when the cow drops dead.



A FRENCH CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows.



A JAPANESE CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of
an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. You then create
clever cow cartoon images called Cowkimon and market them World-Wide.



A GERMAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You reengineer them so they live for 100 years, eat
once a month, and milk themselves.



A BRITISH CORPORATION:
You have two cows. They are mad. They die. Pass the shepherd's pie,
please.



AN ITALIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are. You break for
lunch.



A RUSSIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You count them and learn you have five cows. You
count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again and
learn you have 12 cows. You stop counting cows and open another bottle
of vodka.



A SWISS CORPORATION:
You have 5000 cows, none of which belong to you. You charge others for
storing them.



A BRAZILIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You enter into a partnership with an American
corporation. Soon you have 1000 cows and the American corporation
declares bankruptcy.



AN INDIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You worship both of them.



A CHINESE CORPORATION:
You have two cows. You have 300 people milking them. You claim full
employment, high bovine productivity, and arrest the newsman who
reported on them.



AN ISRAELI CORPORATION:
There are these two Jewish cows, right? They open a milk factory, an ice

cream store, and then sell the movie rights. They send their calves to
Harvard to become doctors. So, who needs people?



AN ARKANSAS CORPORATION:
You have two cows. That one on the left is kinda cute...





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec  3 10:17:32 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:17:32 -0800
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <3C0B453B.25540.F81AC27@localhost>
Message-ID: <05213906-E81A-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>



On Monday, December 3, 2001, at 09:26 AM, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:

> On 3 Dec 2001, at 13:44, Ken Brown wrote:
>
>> All the discussion about certificates of speaking Navajo or whatever 
>> are
>> slightly beside the point. If personal reputation, as such, has a 
>> market
>> value it isn't the money you'd get by selling the reputation, because 
>> as
>> everyone else already pointed out, if you could sell it, it wouldn't
>> really be a reputation.
>
> Well, I thought so, but apparently not everyone does, since there's
> been a certain amount of discussion as to whether a nym might be
> sold (with associated reputation) and if so how it might be
> accomplished.

This is "the reputation of a reputation."

As soon as people tumble to the fact that "Tom Clancy" has sold his 
nym/reputation to some hack writer, that is, let them put his name on 
their words, then the reputation of "Tom Clancy" falls.

Nothing new here. "Fisher" was a respected (high reputation) name in 
stereo equipment. (I don't like the term "reputation," due to issues 
I've discussed here, but I'm using it in the commonly understood sense.)

The name Fisher was bought by a Taiwan maker of equipment, and one can 
now see "Fisher" on boxes at Costco and Best Buy.

Draw your own conclusions. My own sense is that no one is fooled: those 
young enough not to know what "Fisher" once was don't care. Those old 
enough to know aren't fooled. I expect the brand name Fisher sold for 
very little money, reflecting all of these issues.

Lots of issues here. I'm still composing a longer essay in response to 
Wei Dai's and others' points. Some delays.


--Tim May
--Tim May, Occupied America
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 10:48:14 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:48:14 -0800
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware:
  solutions)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203103637.033d0750@idiom.com>



>> > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS
>> > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing.
>> > I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and
>> > see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size
>> > changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.)

Especially on Microsoft OSs, it's too easy to create logging
that doesn't look like a regular file for which you can watch
size or checksum changes.  Hidden files are trivial to use,
though many utilities ignore their hiddenness,
but with more work any good virus-writer can do a better
job of hiding a file.  Or you can find things that are
always changing for obscure Microsoftish reasons,
or look like devices that can't be checksummed.

Or you can store the data in the "unused" space at the end
of the last block in a file - especially as disks get larger,
disk blocks also get larger, so there's more space at the ends,
and any utilities that are checksumming files won't notice,
because it's not in the file.  Or you can store the data
in "unused" disk blocks, if you can keep the file system from
reaping them, though diskwipe utilities will occasionally catch these.
The unused block space _might_ sometimes be hidden or overwritten
by encrypted file systems, if you're using them; YMMV.

At 12:45 PM 12/03/2001 +0000, Gil Hamilton wrote:
>What techniques could be used to do this?  MD5 has some weaknesses,
>but creating collisions still is not trivial.  Unless you know
>something I don't.

Hans Dobbertin's work a couple of years ago makes MD5 sounds pretty shaky,
but you could also use SHA-1 for your checksums,
or your favorite non-crypto fast checksum.
But that's more work than the Fedz will bother with;
much easier to hide stuff on Windows than to hack checksums.









From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec  3 10:49:55 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:49:55 -0800
Subject: Cryptoheaven
In-Reply-To: <073401c17be0$b084f9c0$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203104922.033bd0b0@idiom.com>


At 11:55 AM 12/03/2001 +0200, Marcel Popescu wrote:
>Anybody checked the license agreement?
>
>You hereby agree to not use the Service to:
>
>   1.. transmit or store any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening,
>abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous,
>invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise
>objectionable
>Hello? Unlawful is bad enough (no Chinese talking about the benefits of
>capitalism with this service), but "otherwise objectionable"?

It probably means "generates too many complaints to the operators" :-)




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Mon Dec  3 08:01:52 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:01:52 -0500
Subject: Council of Europe Cybercrime Treaty
Message-ID: <200112031603.KAA17323@einstein.ssz.com>



The full text is at 
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/WhatYouWant.asp?NT=185

Note that no signatories have signed, and it requires at least 5 to 
sign before going into force.

This is interesting because basically all of Western Europe's IP 
traffic crosses the U.S. at some point, and therefore creates some 
interesting ramifications for U.S. ISPs.... how do they respond to 
demands for subscriber records and copies of traffic?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address?
Visit http://www.FastCircle.com






From UNI-BROK_5 at .uni.eresmas.com  Mon Dec  3 02:32:07 2001
From: UNI-BROK_5 at .uni.eresmas.com (UNI-BROK)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:32:07 +0100
Subject: De su interes/Publi.enseanza
Message-ID: <200112031036.CAA18147@toad.com>


   
 
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Area Broker-Learning University
University Technology International
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uni3000 at navegalia.com
---------------
 
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remo_567 at eresmas.com
   
 




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Dec  3 08:38:53 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:38:53 -0500 (est)
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and implementation
In-Reply-To: <20011201140536.A27178@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 



Thanks for the pointer, a very good essay indeed. :)

I haven't checked in any meaningful way, but that thread doesn't seem to
have any replies from Ralph...  Do you recall any details as to what would
cause oscillations?  Would be interesting to explore this.

I expect that having a way to prove collusion by checking who praises
whom, etc. would likely avoid such problems.  As would I suppose personal
observation of current behavior.

Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
least they're funny...)


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:00:33PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
> | 
> | Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400.  Then
> | I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so
> | now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620.
> 
> Interesting idea.  I proposed something very similar in
> http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00313.html Raph
> demonstrated a bit later that the system could be forced into
> oscilation and had other problems, although that might have been in
> person, not on list.
> 
> Adam
> 
> -- 
> Imminent death of the list predicted.  Film already in the
> archives, 11/95. 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Dec  3 08:42:17 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:42:17 -0500 (est)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Ok, then I propose to surround your property from any vantage point on
public land, and setup gigantic speakers from which I would recite very
loud speeches in your direction at 3:00am.

As I would be on public land and excercising my freedom of speech, you
couldn't do anything as that would be censorship.  Or are you ready to
submit that "Congress shall make no law ... freedom of expression" only
applies to Congress?


Also, I didn't receive any reply from you on your views of the parable of
the ants and the cricket from your insane CACL thread...


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Jim Choate wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote:
> 
> > But by preventing me from trespassing you're restricting my freedom of
> > speech!  According to you, that's illegal.
> 
> Not at all. You are still free to speak, just not on my property.
> 
> You have a right to engage in any behaviour until it infringes another.
> You're trespassing infringes my property right. My not allowing you entry
> doesn't effect your freedom of speech (only who is listening, which
> isn't a right).




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 01:49:16 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:49:16 +0200
Subject: 'software error' 37,000 to cato.a "libertarian" institute.
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203052329.00a202f0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <072201c17bdf$cda2da50$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "mattd" 

> http://www.mediatransparency.org/Stories/bradley_error.htm

Ok, someone PLEASE enlighten me... WHAT on Earth is the problem here? They
paid TOO MUCH in taxes, so they have to pay a fine???

Mark




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 01:55:50 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:55:50 +0200
Subject: Cryptoheaven
Message-ID: <073401c17be0$b084f9c0$5300a8c0@marcel>


Anybody checked the license agreement?

You hereby agree to not use the Service to:

  1.. transmit or store any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening,
abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous,
invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise
objectionable
Hello? Unlawful is bad enough (no Chinese talking about the benefits of
capitalism with this service), but "otherwise objectionable"?

Mark




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From: jasonk at funnymoney.com (Jason Kulpa)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:15:08 -0800
Subject: exclusive leads at non-exclusive prices
Message-ID: <200112031220241.SM00264@amanda>


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From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Mon Dec  3 12:45:49 2001
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:45:49 
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions)
Message-ID: 


Karsten Self writes:
>on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:12:53PM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote:
>
> > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS
> > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing.
> >
> > I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and
> > see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size
> > changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.)
>
>Defeat:  create a log buffer file of fixed size, logged activity changes
>its contents, but not the size of the file.  E.g.:  a filesystem image
>file under GNU/Linux.  Techniques could be used to maintain a constant
>global MD5 checksum to defeat other detection attempts.

What techniques could be used to do this?  MD5 has some weaknesses,
but creating collisions still is not trivial.  Unless you know
something I don't.

- GH


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Mon Dec  3 09:55:46 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:55:46 -0500
Subject: Council of Europe Cybercrime Treaty
Message-ID: <200112031757.LAA18513@einstein.ssz.com>



OUTBOUND traffic is what I meant, of course :)

Although, comedy aside, there's an interesting point herein: even a 
lot of traffic that you would normally assume would be intra-Western 
Europe traffic actually crosses into U.S. NAPs -- counterintuitively 
stupid, I know, but it happens more than you might imagine, 
especially for corporate traffic of multinationals and traffic 
inbound/outbound for webhosting companies that are European but in 
reality are getting their pipes from U.S. ISPs.

The same is true of PacRim traffic too, btw (in some cases, even more 
so -- a large percentage of Hong Kong to Australia traffic goes 
through the U.S., for example) -- although of course PacRim traffic 
is not covered by this agreement.


> mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:
>  
> > The full text is at
> > http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/WhatYouWant.asp?NT=185
> > 
> > Note that no signatories have signed, and it requires at least 5 
to
> > sign before going into force.
> > 
> > This is interesting because basically all of Western Europe's IP
> > traffic crosses the U.S. at some point, 
> 
> Que?
> 
> Tracing route to members.ams.chello.nl [62.108.1.126]
> over a maximum of 30 hops:
> 
>   1   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  193.61.22.245
>   2   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  144.82.19.103
>   3   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  144.82.255.17
>   4    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  128.40.255.29
>   5   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  128.40.20.190
>   6    30 ms    20 ms    20 ms  ulcc-gsr.lmn.net.uk [194.83.101.5]
>   7   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  london-bar1.ja.net [146.97.40.33]
>   8   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  linx-gw.ja.net [128.86.1.249]
>   9   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  LINXRT1.chello.com [195.66.224.89]
>  10    30 ms    30 ms    20 ms  uk-lon-rc-02-pos-5-
0.chellonetwork.com
> [213.46.1
> 60.57]
>  11    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  nl-ams-rc-01-pos-0-
0.chellonetwork.com
> [213.46.1
> 60.9]
>  12    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  nl-ams-rd-01-pos-1-
0.chellonetwork.com
> [213.46.1
> 60.14]
>  13    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  pos15-0.am00rt06.brain.upc.nl
> [213.46.161.54]
>  14    20 ms    30 ms    20 ms  srp10-0.am00rt02.brain.upc.nl
> [212.142.32.42]
>  15    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  srp0-0.am00rt03.brain.upc.nl
> [212.142.32.35]
>  16    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gig3-0-0.h0rtr1.a2000.nl 
[62.108.0.82]
>  17    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  members.ams.chello.nl [62.108.1.126]
> 
> Trace complete.
> 
> 


_______________________________________________________________________________
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From membership at winnerspaid.com  Mon Dec  3 12:58:18 2001
From: membership at winnerspaid.com (membership at winnerspaid.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:58:18 -0800
Subject: click here to drive away
Message-ID: <00002c3214f2$000058f8$00002baf@203.155.120.2>

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From membership at winnerspaid.com  Mon Dec  3 12:58:20 2001
From: membership at winnerspaid.com (membership at winnerspaid.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:58:20 -0800
Subject: click here to drive away
Message-ID: <00004630664b$000056ed$00002bb9@202.99.192.46>

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From membership at winnerspaid.com  Mon Dec  3 12:58:28 2001
From: membership at winnerspaid.com (membership at winnerspaid.com)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:58:28 -0800
Subject: details
Message-ID: <0000582b4ec4$00007cd4$00002bcf@202.230.124.2>

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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Dec  3 11:58:38 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:58:38 -0700
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
Message-ID: <3C0BD96E.E0AEEA31@lsil.com>


Faustine 
>Tim wrote:
>
>>This is "the reputation of a reputation."
>Ridiculous how so many employers put such stock in a word on a piece of
paper
>too--pure credentialism. How ironic when you contrast that with the
fact that
>the great Herman Kahn didn't have a PhD. I wonder where he'd end up
today.
>
>~Faustine.
>
What you're complaining about is behavior that is typical of
bureaucracies which often do what is easier instead of what is smarter,
better or right. In a bureaucracy your risk is minimized by following
procedure. Minimizing the risk of individuals within the organization is
not equivalent to optimizing the organization's performance. Hardly a
description of a control system that can keep away from the rails.

Mike




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Dec  3 04:17:40 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:17:40 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: FBI agents rebel over new powers (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:29:44 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: FBI agents rebel over new powers


>
>FBI agents rebel over new powers
>
>Liberty Watch: Observer campaign
>
>Ed Vulliamy in New York
>Sunday December 2, 2001
>The Observer
>
>The US Attorney General, John Ashcroft, was yesterday reported to be
>ready to relax restrictions on the FBI's powers to spy on religious
>and church-based political organisations.
>
>His proposal, leaked to the New York Times, would loosen limits on the
>FBI's surveillance powers, imposed in the 1970s after the death of its
>founder J. Edgar Hoover.
>
>The plan has caused outrage within the FBI itself with agents expected
>to act upon new surveillance powers describing themselves as 'very,
>very angry'.
>
>...
>
>http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,610381,00.html

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From ems at jrandom.com  Mon Dec  3 13:24:26 2001
From: ems at jrandom.com (Erik Seaberg)
Date: 03 Dec 2001 13:24:26 -0800
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and  
  implementation
In-Reply-To: Sunder's message of "Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:00:33 -0500 (est)"
References: 
Message-ID: <86oflg575h.fsf@unx51.staff.flyingcroc.net>


This is often known as "collaborative filtering", and pops up in
systems like NoCeM and GroupLens.  What's cool is that you don't need
transitive trust or even poster reputations (anonymity without so much
vandalism!).  Just give the right reviewers the reputation "good/bad
judgment about which articles are worth reading"--and you can find
them by reviewing some articles yourself and measuring similarity of
answers.  If reviewers aren't willing to highly rate articles they
disagree with there's a danger of shutting out unpopular ideas (a
common complaint about /. moderators), and you need a critical mass of
people willing to rate most of a forum to get started (and it can't be
much more than an extra keystroke or two or they won't bother).







From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Dec  3 05:44:14 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 13:44:14 +0000
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0B81AE.B85212C8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Tim May wrote:

[...]

> >
> > We're not disagreeing. By a "single" value I meant a universally
> > agreed upon value.
> 
> If there is a "universally agreed upon value" for something, and someone
> values it differently, is it still "universal"?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> What there may be are market-clearing prices, in various markets and at
> various times, but this has nothing to do with "universally agreed-upon
> values."


Tim got it right here. The market value of anything is not a universally
agreed price, it is any price at which a buyer and a seller can agree to
do business.

All the discussion about certificates of speaking Navajo or whatever are
slightly beside the point. If personal reputation, as such, has a market
value it isn't the money you'd get by selling the reputation, because as
everyone else already pointed out, if you could sell it, it wouldn't
really be a reputation. The market value of a personal reputation is the
extra money you could get by selling something else, backed by that
reputation.

That sort of reputation is used in real markets every day. I need to get
the hot water boiler in my flat fixed. I would be prepared to pay more
money to a plumber with whatever certificates of plumberhood plumbers
have than I would to someone I just happened to meet down the pub. I
might be happy to spend even more on someone who had done good work for
friends of mine. That sort of reputation has cash value.

It is even more important in pseudo-markets, like the ones in board
memberships of large corporations, or in public offices in the gift of
elected politicians. The kind of people who are called, in England, "The
Great and the Good" - an odd mixture of retired businessmen who have
made enough money, politicians who know they will never get to the top,
academics looking to increase their public profile, and the well-meaning
offspring of rich  and respectable families. Such people sit on
committees, and boards, and commissions, and inquiries, they run 
charities, and schools, and hospitals, and can make a career out of
nothing but reputation. Famous for not even being famous any more. Over
here in Britain we get them worse than  you Americans do do (though you
get them pretty bad, if the list of achievements of the board members of
a couple of US companies I have shares in is anything to go by) - we
have institutonalised it as the House of Lords. Yuck.

Ken Brown




From wolf at priori.net  Mon Dec  3 14:21:23 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:21:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN and Julie Hilden on the Evil of Anonymity
Message-ID: 


"Most of us now are happy, for example, to tolerate facial recognition
technology at stadiums, and to proffer our driver's licenses at frequent
car, truck and airport checkpoints. We no longer can travel anonymously,
and that may be acceptable given the risks we now face. But while the
ability to travel namelessly may be a prerogative we can sacrifice, what
about the right to speak anonymously?"

[...]

"Finally, to consider some more dramatic possibilities, the government
could launch a denial of service attack on any remaining anonymous
remailers, which guarantee the privacy of both the sender and receiver of
e-mail. It could also simply shut Anonymizer.com down, purportedly in the
interest of national security, or legislate any similar services away."

[...]

"Finally, even if the Court did recognize a First Amendment right to
anonymity that extended to private Internet communications, it is
important to remember that First Amendment-protected speech could be
curtailed, given a compelling government interest and a sufficiently
narrowly tailored government measure. And the compelling quality of the
interest in fighting terror is a given. "

[...]

http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/columns/fl.hilden.online.first.11.29/index.html




From Student_LRC at mail.clc.cc.il.us  Mon Dec  3 12:24:56 2001
From: Student_LRC at mail.clc.cc.il.us (Student)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:24:56 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000a01c17c38$935f6580$ff6619ac@lrc01>

Hey there,

I wanted to know if there is a way that I could use biothermal surveillance to spy on somebody. Is it possible to do that through the internet. Please let me know through mail. My e-mail address is maniacz at altavista.com
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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Dec  3 06:27:39 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 14:27:39 +0000
Subject: Viridian Note 00283:  Geeks and Spooks (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0B8BDB.32750B11@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Eugene Leitl forwarded:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: 2 Dec 2001 23:23:55 -0000
> From: Bruce Sterling 
> To: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de
> Subject: Viridian Note 00283:  Geeks and Spooks
> 
> Key concepts: cryptography, information warfare,
> imaginary products, American national security

[...big article snipped...]

Yee-hah! The most poly-on-topic post that has a appeared in cypherpunks
for a while. Read it early and often. 

Except for the nasty bit about the British near the bottom of course. We
are friendly people really. We couldn't help getting that empire you
know. All you guys just sat around not looking after your countries at
all properly and without anywhere near enough artillery or steam
engines, what did you expect? Trade or something? If it hadn't have been
us it would have been the Germans, or the French, or the Spanish, and 
we're *much* nicer than them.

Ken Brown




From wolf at priori.net  Mon Dec  3 14:47:48 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:47:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <05213906-E81A-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> This is "the reputation of a reputation."
>
> As soon as people tumble to the fact that "Tom Clancy" has sold his
> nym/reputation to some hack writer, that is, let them put his name on
> their words, then the reputation of "Tom Clancy" falls.
>
> Nothing new here. "Fisher" was a respected (high reputation) name in
> stereo equipment. (I don't like the term "reputation," due to issues
> I've discussed here, but I'm using it in the commonly understood sense.)
>
> The name Fisher was bought by a Taiwan maker of equipment, and one can
> now see "Fisher" on boxes at Costco and Best Buy.
>
> Draw your own conclusions. My own sense is that no one is fooled: those
> young enough not to know what "Fisher" once was don't care. Those old
> enough to know aren't fooled. I expect the brand name Fisher sold for
> very little money, reflecting all of these issues.

It seems to me that the sale of the "reputation" is a red herring in these
cases. Tim's giving examples of instances where a particular brand's
reputation for a given level of quality became devalued when the brand's
product became inferior to products previously sold under the same brand
name.

I suspect that buyers of Fisher would find the sale of the name
unimportant, if the new Taiwanese owners continued to produce equipment of
the same caliber as the old Fisher.

It takes significantly longer to build a brand reputation than it does to
lose it. By purchasing another's name, one attempts to cut the "brand
building" stage short -- but it is necessary to live up to the
expectations associated with that brand.


-MW-




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Mon Dec  3 05:55:39 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:55:39 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: Re:  Interesting Clarke interview in case you missed it (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 16:06:43 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Re:  Interesting Clarke interview in case you missed it


>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 12:50:33 -0800
>To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
>From: Jim Warren 
>
>>>Howard Schmidt, Microsoft's chief security officer, is expected to leave
>>>within the next month to join the Bush administration and work with White
>>>House cyber-security adviser Richard Clarke, according to sources in the
>>>computer-security industry.
>>>
>>>Mark Sachs, a U.S. Army major who is an operations analyst at the Joint
>>>Task Force for Computer Network Operations, also expected to join Clarke's
>>>team. The task force Sachs currently works for oversees the Pentagon's
>>>global information systems, sources said.
>
>Given
>
>(1) the pervasive-net-surveillance and freedom-to-snoop-sans-court-orders
>that Attorney General Ashcroft and Bush's federal agencies are pursuing so
>eagerly and aggressively, against American residents and citizens alike;
>
>(2) the endless security holes in Microsoft's software and MSN-network,
>that crackers and miscreants have exploited for years of virus and DDoS
>attacks, and
>
>(3) the fact that "the Pentagon's global information systems" can as
>easily refer to the military's *surveillance* systems, as to the DoD's MIS
>systems ...
>
>... then, one cannot help but wonder:
>
>How much time will Microsoft's "security" officer and the Pentagon's
>"global information" officer spend on improving government and/or
>corporate/citizen computer security ...
>
>... versus ...
>
>How much time will they spend on expanding and deploying the
>administration's long-existent Echelon
>dragnet/fishing-expedition/communications-surveillance system, and the
>FBI's recently-announced covert keystroke-grabbing software ...
>
>... into and onto all citizens' and organizations' computers?
>
>
>After all, one of the Republican's last Attorneys General before Aschroft --
>Reagan's Ed Meese -- made their perspective clear for all to see.  He
>said, "If a person is innocent of a crime, then he is not a suspect." (Of
>course, he said that *before* criminal investigators began investigating
>*him* around 1988.)
>
>And all the polls show that the public *supports* whatever it is that the
>administration is doing, including demolition of [other people's] personal
>privacy and civil liberties.
>
>All 'Right'-minded, properly-subservient citizens and business people
>should applaud this!  They're from the government; they're here to help us.
>
>--jim
>Jim Warren; jwarren at well.com, technology & public policy columnist & advocate
>
>[self-inflating puffery: Playboy Foundation Hugh Hefner First-Amendment Award;
>Soc.of Prof.Journalists-Nor.Calif. James Madison Freedom-of-Information Award;
>founded InfoWorld, Dr.Dobb's Journal, and Computers, Freedom & Privacy Confs.;
>Electronic Frontier Foundation's Pioneer Award (in its first year), blah blah]
>
>
>And if you think this is something new, remember the 1995 Republican
>Congress' legislation to legalize use of evidence obtained by unauthorized
>search -- as reported by Farber on his IP list at the time:
>
>So long, Fourth Amendment
>From: David Farber 
>Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:36:57 -0500
>... (Fri Jan 27), the House Judiciary Committee approved this abrogation
>of the Fourth Amendment, on a 19-14 vote, after breaking it out of H.R.3,
>"The Taking Back Our Streets Act of 1995":
>
>   In General.--Chapter 223 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by
> adding at the end the following:
>   "Sec. 3510. Admissibility of evidence obtained by search or seizure
>   "(a) Evidence Obtained by Objectively Reasonable Search or Seizure.--
> Evidence which is obtained as a result of a search or seizure shall not
> be excluded in a proceeding in a court of the United States on the ground
> that the search or seizure was in violation of the fourth amendment to
> the Constitution of the United States, if the search or seizure was
> carried out in circumstances justifying an objectively reasonable belief
> that it was in conformity with the fourth amendment. The fact that
> evidence was obtained pursuant to and within the scope of a warrant
> constitutes prima facie evidence of the existence of such circumstances.
>   "(b) Evidence Not Excludable by Statute or Rule.--Evidence shall not be
> excluded in a proceeding in a court of the United States on the ground
> that it was obtained in violation of a statute, an administrative rule or
> regulation, or a rule of procedure unless exclusion is expressly
> authorized by statute or by a rule prescribed by the Supreme Court
> pursuant to statutory authority.
>
> From S.3, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Improvement Act
> of 1995 (still pending [in February, 1995] before the Senate Judiciary
> Committee):
>
>   "Sec. 3502A. Admissibility of evidence obtained by search or seizure
>   "(a) Evidence Obtained by Objectively Reasonable Search or Seizure.--
> Evidence obtained as a result of a search or seizure that is otherwise
> admissible in a Federal criminal proceeding shall not be excluded in a
> proceeding in a court of the United States on the ground that the search
> or seizure was in violation of the fourth amendment to the Constitution.
>"(b) Evidence Not Excludable by Statute or Rule.--Evidence shall not be
>excluded in a proceeding in a court of the United States on the ground
>that it was obtained in violation of a statute, an administrative rule, or
>a rule of court procedure unless exclusion is expressly authorized by
>statute or by a rule prescribed by the Supreme Court pursuant to chapter
>131 of title 28.

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Dec  3 12:19:01 2001
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:19:01 -0500
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware:solutions)
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0BDE35.5D7F99A3@acmenet.net>


Gil Hamilton wrote:
> 
> Karsten Self writes:
> >Defeat:  create a log buffer file of fixed size, logged activity changes
> >its contents, but not the size of the file.  E.g.:  a filesystem image
> >file under GNU/Linux.  Techniques could be used to maintain a constant
> >global MD5 checksum to defeat other detection attempts.
> 
> What techniques could be used to do this?  MD5 has some weaknesses,
> but creating collisions still is not trivial.  Unless you know
> something I don't.

I interpreted that not as working around MD5, but as working around the
procedure which would use MD5 to get a single number for an entire file
system.

Example: mark the logging software's keylog file as a device file, which
wouldn't be processed by the file system checksum procedure. When the
logger needs to write to its log, the file type is changed to "ordinary"
and then back to "device" again.


-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel




From mattd at useoz.com  Sun Dec  2 20:22:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:22:42 +1100
Subject: in praise of gold, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203151650.00a17110@pop.useoz.com>


"...nothing more than a cop-out. So it seems to me, at any rate. ~Faustine. "

Like you last week (agent ?) faustine (cop-in?) Silence speaks volumes in 
this house.




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Dec  3 12:38:41 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:38:41 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001173@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Dec  3 12:39:24 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:39:24 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001175@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec  3 12:39:46 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:39:46 -0500
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
Message-ID: <200112032039.PAA21960@mail.lokmail.net>

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From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Dec  3 12:39:52 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:39:52 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001176@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Mon Dec  3 12:41:06 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:41:06 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001178@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Dec  3 13:40:11 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:40:11 -0500 (est)
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and 
  implementation
In-Reply-To: <0c7b01c17c46$2db18c50$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: 


Right, but will this type of thing cause oscillations, or some sort of
synchronizations, and if so, what are the ways around it...

In some ways I do look at that repcap model as a stock market, but rather
than individual stocks, you have reputations.

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Marcel Popescu wrote:

> From: "Sunder" 
> 
> > Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
> > positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
> > I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
> > quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
> > least they're funny...)
> 
> I think this is pretty much known behavior: reputation is more easily lost
> than gained ("one angry customer tells other nine" and so on).
> 
> Mark




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Dec  3 08:58:09 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 16:58:09 +0000
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203192455.00a34cf0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0BAF20.DC54F12F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


mattd wrote:

[...]

> If you are into cryptoanarchy with the emphasis on the anarchy,you may
> enjoy this...

[...]

> We used to say, NO to Western Imperialism and NO to Soviet Imperialism
> both. Self determination for ALL PEOPLES!
> One Empire has fallen. One still has to fall. But we should not mourn the
> passing of the Soviet prison of nations.

[...]

You miss the point. James & many of the other Libertarians present are
aware past attempts at left anarchism.  But they think that  such
attempts will inevitably  develop into state socialist tyranny, or else 
collapse into a bloody war of all against all, or else  be defeated by
some other group that has already become a centralised tyranny. (In
Makhno's case all three happened, at least partly).

In other words they think that - to nick a Marxist term they probably
wouldn't use themselves - socialism has "contradictions", that you can't
have socialism without tyranny. From their point of view there is no
logical space for "libertarian socialism" or "socialist anarchism".
Someone who claims to be a socialist and yet opposed to state control
will, they think, be either a liar who will turn out to be a Statist in
the end, or someone who hasn't thought things through, who will turn out
to be a capitalist in the end.

I happen to think they are wrong. But stirring quotes from well-known
texts about the Russian revolution won't persuade them. 
The few who are at all interested will have read such stuff before and
already know the (very persuasive) arguments against it. (After all the
Russian revolution really did collapse into ten years of bloody war,
followed by 30 years of Stalinism, then another 30  of mind-numbingly
boring militarised dictatorship and petty cruelty from which anyone in
their right minds would have gladly escaped to America or western
Europe. They aren't making this up)

Of course most of the US libertarians neither know nor care about that
1920s stuff, and going on about it will just confirm their prejudices
about it. Americans tend to be well immunized against socialism - the
only way to get it past their mental blocks is to call it something else
:-)  It was still fun a few years ago when someone posted a chunk of the
Communist Manifesto with references to "the Bourgeoisie" changed to "the
Net" and quite a few of them took it as some recent anarcho-capitalist
rant...


Ken




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec  3 17:02:19 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:02:19 -0800
Subject: Disposable cell phone launches
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203170003.04244008@pop3.lvcm.com>


Summary:
Universal Studios Home Video and Hop-On partnered to launch what they say 
is the first-of-its-kind, disposable cellphone in connection with the 
DVD/home video release of "Jurassic Park III" December 11. The 
limited-edition phone, called the Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phone, 
includes hands-free, voice-activated technology, and it only will be 
available via inserts in thousands of "Jurassic Park III" DVDs and 
videocassettes. The recyclable phone offers 60 minutes of prepaid calling 
time, usable for six months. The free phones will feature a branded 
"Jurassic Park" faceplate to enhance collectability. Hop-On says it plans 
to release a regular disposable cellphone in national retail outlets for 
$30 after this promotion ends.

Full Article:
UNIVERSAL CITY, Calif., Nov. 29 /PRNewswire/ -- In a major first for the 
entertainment and telecommunications industries, Universal Studios Home 
Video (USHV) and Hop-On (OTC: HPON) have partnered to launch the 
first-of-its-kind, disposable cell phone in connection with the DVD/home 
video release of "Jurassic Park III" on December 11. The limited edition 
introductory phone, a specially-designed Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phone, 
employs the latest hands-free, voice-activated communications technology, 
and will be available only as an exclusive FREE offer via inserts in 
thousands of "Jurassic Park III" DVDs and videocassettes for a limited time.

Cutting-Edge Telecommunications Technology
The exclusive Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phones will offer 60 minutes of 
prepaid calling time without the requirement of a cellular service contract 
or monthly fee. Compact and lightweight in design as well as fully 
recyclable, the cell phones require only two buttons: CALL and END. Using 
mistake-proof, automated voice-recognition dialing, the cell phones include 
a hands-free earbud/microphone to provide safe and convenient 
communication. Once activated, the phones are supported by 24-hour operator 
assistance and last up to six months.

The limited edition Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phone will also feature a 
branded "Jurassic Park" faceplate to enhance collectability. Hop-On plans 
to release a regular disposable cell phone in national retail outlets for 
$30 after the introductory promotion with "Jurassic Park III." The Jurassic 
Park Survival Cell Phone combines the latest cutting edge communications 
product with one of the year's biggest theatrical box-office successes in 
time to capitalize on heightened consumer awareness during the holiday 
shopping season surrounding the home video/DVD release.

The cell phone offer will be communicated via on-pack stickers on all DVD 
and VHS copies of "Jurassic Park III" as well as through in-store 
merchandisers. "Because a cell phone played such a crucial role in 
"Jurassic Park III," we were looking to find a unique telecommunications 
partner to help celebrate the film's release on DVD," said Ken Graffeo, 
senior vice president of marketing, Universal Studios Home Video. "Our 
partnership with Hop-On is ideal and we are thrilled to be bringing the 
next wave of cell phone technology to consumers."

"The Jurassic Park Survival Cell Phone is designed to give consumers easy 
access to help if they need it -- anytime, anywhere," said Peter Michaels, 
chairman and CEO, Hop-On. "As an entrepreneurial communications company we 
are extremely excited to be partnering with one of the most successful and 
dominant global media and communications organizations. Hop-On's phones 
have the potential to revolutionize the communications industry and this 
launch is an important step toward that goal."




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Mon Dec  3 09:19:08 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:19:08 +0000
Subject: Council of Europe Cybercrime Treaty
References: <200112031603.KAA17323@einstein.ssz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0BB40C.F8C4008B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:
 
> The full text is at
> http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/WhatYouWant.asp?NT=185
> 
> Note that no signatories have signed, and it requires at least 5 to
> sign before going into force.
> 
> This is interesting because basically all of Western Europe's IP
> traffic crosses the U.S. at some point, 

Que?

Tracing route to members.ams.chello.nl [62.108.1.126]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  193.61.22.245
  2   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  144.82.19.103
  3   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  144.82.255.17
  4    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  128.40.255.29
  5   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  128.40.20.190
  6    30 ms    20 ms    20 ms  ulcc-gsr.lmn.net.uk [194.83.101.5]
  7   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  london-bar1.ja.net [146.97.40.33]
  8   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  linx-gw.ja.net [128.86.1.249]
  9   <10 ms   <10 ms   <10 ms  LINXRT1.chello.com [195.66.224.89]
 10    30 ms    30 ms    20 ms  uk-lon-rc-02-pos-5-0.chellonetwork.com
[213.46.1
60.57]
 11    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  nl-ams-rc-01-pos-0-0.chellonetwork.com
[213.46.1
60.9]
 12    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  nl-ams-rd-01-pos-1-0.chellonetwork.com
[213.46.1
60.14]
 13    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  pos15-0.am00rt06.brain.upc.nl
[213.46.161.54]
 14    20 ms    30 ms    20 ms  srp10-0.am00rt02.brain.upc.nl
[212.142.32.42]
 15    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  srp0-0.am00rt03.brain.upc.nl
[212.142.32.35]
 16    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  gig3-0-0.h0rtr1.a2000.nl [62.108.0.82]
 17    10 ms    10 ms    10 ms  members.ams.chello.nl [62.108.1.126]

Trace complete.




From frissell at panix.com  Mon Dec  3 14:22:44 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:22:44 -0500
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <200112032039.PAA21960@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011203171057.02b978b0@brillig.panix.com>


At 03:39 PM 12/3/01 -0500, Faustine wrote:
>Great points, but consider the example "Harvard University." People are
>willing to pay a premium to be associated with it regardless of the academic
>worth of the individual programs in the eyes of specialists. A lot of students
>are after the cachet and couldn't care less about the curriculum. But then,
>I'm sure it's a mistake to assume education for it's own sake has the 
>slightest
>thing to do with why the majority of people bother going to college at all.
>
>Ridiculous how so many employers put such stock in a word on a piece of paper
>too--pure credentialism. How ironic when you contrast that with the fact that
>the great Herman Kahn didn't have a PhD. I wonder where he'd end up today.

Special agents should read the Economist in addition to NLECTC Law 
Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary http://www.nlectc.org/.


http://WWW.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%26%2BX%28%2FQ%21%3B%26%0A

The lemon dilemma
Oct 11th 2001
 From The Economist print edition

This year's Nobel prize for economics honours work inspired by a simple 
observation about used cars

...

This year's other two laureates, Michael Spence of Stanford University and 
Joseph Stiglitz of Columbia, won their prize for analysing how firms and 
consumers separate the gems from the lemons in a variety of industries.

Mr Spence's early work focused on how individuals use signalling to 
communicate their abilities in the labour market. Job applicants, for 
example, want to distinguish themselves from the mass of other hopefuls. 
They may try to do this in a number of ways, from a fancy suit to a fancy 
education. But for signals to be believable, Mr Spence observed, they need 
to differ substantially in their cost of acquisition. For example, for 
education to work as a credible signal, it must be harder for less able 
employees to get. Indeed, even if such an education gives a student no 
tangible skillsreading classics at Oxford, sayit can still be a useful 
signal of relative quality to employers.

Signalling is used in many markets, wherever a person, company or 
government wants to provide information about its intentions or strengths 
indirectly. Taking on debt might signal that a company is confident about 
future profits. Brands send valuable signals to consumers precisely because 
they are costly to create, and thus will not be lightly abused by their 
creators. Advertising may convey no information other than that the firm 
can afford to advertise, but that may be all a consumer needs to know to 
have confidence in it. Perhaps advertising, as a signal, is not money 
entirely wasted, as some economists argue.

...

It's all about signaling.

DCF

----
What was the plea bargain which featured the greatest sentence reduction in 
the history of the criminal law?
A reduction from a charge of Sodomy to a charge of Following Too Close.
   --Courtesy of the National Commission for the Preservation of 
Politically Incorrect Law School Jokes.




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 17:27:43 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:27:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN and Julie Hilden on the Evil of Anonymity
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <20011204012743.16130.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com>


> "Most of us now are happy, for example, to tolerate facial recognition

I tried to figure out, but sufficient data is not available.

Who are "they" ?



=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec  3 17:44:55 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:44:55 -0800
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <05213906-E81A-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>
References: <3C0B453B.25540.F81AC27@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011203174455.007fb1b0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:17 AM 12/3/01 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>As soon as people tumble to the fact that "Tom Clancy" has sold his 
>nym/reputation to some hack writer, that is, let them put his name on 
>their words, then the reputation of "Tom Clancy" falls.

I was coming to that conclusion thanks to the public
exchange of certain extremely-high-rep folks here.

The conclusion: you can't sell a nym.  Nyms are best
managed by their initiator.  You can sell a nym's
recommendation  reliably but not a nym.  Is this true?

A grasshopper,






 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec  3 17:47:35 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:47:35 -0800
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011203174735.007fc240@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:42 AM 12/3/01 -0500, Sunder wrote:
>Ok, then I propose to surround your property from any vantage point on
>public land, and setup gigantic speakers from which I would recite very
>loud speeches in your direction at 3:00am.

Why not do some high-power microwave testing in his direction? 





 






  







From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec  3 18:09:49 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:09:49 -0800
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011203171057.02b978b0@brillig.panix.com>
Message-ID: 



On Monday, December 3, 2001, at 02:22 PM, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>
> Special agents should read the Economist in addition to NLECTC Law 
> Enforcement & Corrections Technology News Summary 
> http://www.nlectc.org/.
>
>
> http://WWW.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%26%2BX%28%2FQ%21%3B%26%0A
>
> The lemon dilemma
> Oct 11th 2001
> From The Economist print edition
>
> This year's Nobel prize for economics honours work inspired by a simple 
> observation about used cars
>

By the way, a topic I talked about a month or two ago, the bogus nature 
of the _Economics_ prize, has been in the news. Some of the descendants 
of the Nobel family want the Economics prize to have no connection to 
the name "Nobel."

Their claim is that Alfred Nobel didn't create or fund the prize, so why 
is it called "Nobel"?

I think the subtext is that the Econ prize is trivializing the other 
prizes.

"Economists win for "lemon analysis"" does not quite compare with 
discovering basic laws of physics or chemistry, for example.



--Tim May
"Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David 
Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 00:28:26 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 19:28:26 +1100
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203192455.00a34cf0@pop.useoz.com>


Thanks for that,Im going to publish it on Indymedia soon,real soon.

If you are into cryptoanarchy with the emphasis on the anarchy,you may 
enjoy this...

Elliott Abrams, who had pleaded guilty in 1981 to lying to Congress over 
the conduct of the war, was installed by the president to head his "office 
for democracy and human rights". See Tom Lehrer again. His criminal offence 
was described by White House spokesman Ari Fleischer as "a matter of the 
past".
We used to say, NO to Western Imperialism and NO to Soviet Imperialism 
both. Self determination for ALL PEOPLES!
One Empire has fallen. One still has to fall. But we should not mourn the 
passing of the Soviet prison of nations.
The Minister of Education and the Minister of the Interior were 
assassinated. Students and young workers, determined to destroy the 
existing order, turned to the writings of Bakunin and Kropotkin for 
inspiration and with dynamite and pistol hurled themselves against the State.
Working people, many of them recently arrived from the countryside to find 
employment in the vast new factories, elected representatives from their 
own class whom they could trust and whom they could remove at once if 
unsatisfactory. Strikes paralysed production, oppressed national groups on 
the borderlands rebelled, peasants burned and looted, and insurrection 
broke out
The revolt, although short-lived, inspired the young anarchist movement. In 
spite of increased repression, its 'Battle Detachments' raided gunshops and 
armouries in search of the Browning pistols they cherished. Officials, 
police and bosses were murdered and countless 'expropriations' of banks and 
houses of the wealthy took place. Gun battles with police ended in death, 
jail or torture.
This revolution, as a participant observed, was 'a purely spontaneous 
phenomenon, not at all the fruit of party agitation.' People were 'fired by 
a sense of unlimited freedom, a liberation from the restraints of their 
society.'
'Down with Authority and Capitalism' on black banners.
Anarchists seized the mansions of the rich. One became 'The House of Rest', 
with rooms for reading, discussion and recreation and a children's 
playground in the garden.
world-wide revolution based on free federations of urban and rural communes.
In 1908 Nestor Makhno had been given a life sentence for the assassination 
of a police chief. Freed in 1917, he was elected head of the Soviet of 
Peasants and Workers in Gulyai-Polye. With an armed band marching behind a 
huge black banner on which was proclaimed 'Liberty or Death- The Land to 
the Peasants, the Factories to the Workers', Makhno began re-distributing 
the estates to the peasants. In 1918, when Austrian and White armies 
invaded the Ukraine, Makhno's partisans fought back: 'We will conquer not 
so that we may follow the example of past years and hand over our fate to 
some new master, but to take it in our own hands and conduct our lives 
according to our own will and our own conception of truth'.
By the following spring the invaders were driven out and Gulyai-Polye was 
free from external control. Organising regional conferences of peasants, 
workers and insurgents, Makhno began to establish anarchist communes based 
on equality and mutual aid.
At first the Bolsheviks hailed him as a 'courageous partisan' and 'great 
revolutionary', but subsequently attacked him as an 'anarcho-bandit'. Two 
Cheka agents were sent to assassinate Makhno, but the agents were caught 
and themselves shot. When Makhno invited Red soldiers to the Congress, a 
furious Trotsky declared him an outlaw, banned the Congress and sent troops 
to break up the anarchist communes.
At this moment the Whites invaded again, driving on Moscow. Bolsheviks and 
anarchists were sent reeling, yet Makhno's army counter-attacked 
successfully. Trotsky used the time he had been given to re-organise the 
Red Army. By Christmas the Whites were expelled. Makhno's anarchists 
promptly entered Ekaterinoslav, threw open the jails and told the people 
that they were now free to organise their own lives. Freedom of speech, 
press and assembly was declared for all except authoritarian parties, which 
were dissolved. Bolsheviks were advised to 'take up some honest trade'.
Again Trotsky outlawed Makhno and serious fighting raged for eight months 
until Whites invaded yet again. Trotsky appealed for Makhno's help, 
promising in return the release of all imprisoned anarchists and complete 
freedom of expression, short of urging the overthrow of the Bolshevik 
government. The Whites were finally defeated.
With victory secure, Trotsky shot all the Makhnovist military commanders, 
attacked Makhno's HQ and wiped out the staff. The Cheka arrested members of 
the Nabat in Kharkov; throughout Russia, anarchist clubs, groups and 
newspaper offices were raided and closed down. Although badly wounded, 
Makhno, together with the remnants of his insurgent army, evaded the 
Bolsheviks for a year. Escaping eventually to Paris, he died in 1934 of 
alcohol and TB.
Surviving anarchists launched a campaign of terror against the Bolsheviks. 
In September 1921, they blew up the Communist Party Moscow, leaving 67 dead 
or wounded.
The anarchists were an immense influence on the popular revolution because 
their aims coincided with the people's desire to sweep away state and 
capital. For a brief moment it did seem possible that a social revolution 
would destroy all authority and create a decentralised society of 
voluntarily cooperating free individuals. But the anarchists' warning that 
power corrupts all who wield it - that authority stifles the revolutionary 
spirit and robs people of freedom - was ignored.




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Dec  3 20:21:56 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 20:21:56 -0800
Subject: Bookstores and von Mises - was: fuel injected firearm
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203020427.033da690@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <73DE4902-E86E-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>



On Monday, December 3, 2001, at 02:23 AM, Bill Stewart wrote:
> von Mises has been dead for a while and his publisher is
> probably not actively running wholesale specials.
>
> Besides, he's like one of those Tedious Dead White Male Classics 
> authors;
> nobody actually reads him, they just read commentaries
> or literary criticisms on him, or the Cliff Notes or comic-book
> "von Mises For Beginners" versions (don't know if they've done him,
> but the Heidegger one makes it palatable to at least approach 
> Heidegger* :-)
> or more likely, economics/politics textbooks by people who have 
> occasional
> references to von Mises but haven't actually read his work,
> just the commentaries/litcrit/cliffnotes/comics about him.

Well, "Marx for Dummies" has been the best-selling economics textbook 
for something like 40 years, through at least 7 or 9 editions.

--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Mon Dec  3 18:16:06 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:17:06 -0459
Subject: WirelessCellutions Phone Hotsheet!
Message-ID: <200112032232343.SM01068@carlo>

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From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Mon Dec  3 18:16:06 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:17:06 -0459
Subject: WirelessCellutions Phone Hotsheet!
Message-ID: <200112032232859.SM01068@carlo>

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From measl at mfn.org  Mon Dec  3 19:23:07 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:23:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware:
  solutions)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203103637.033d0750@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 



> size or checksum changes.  Hidden files are trivial to use,
> though many utilities ignore their hiddenness,

Let's not forget the NT "alternate data streams" "feature".  This is where
almost
anything can be held, and no known virus scanner can touch it.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec  3 22:14:19 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:14:19 -0800
Subject: Debate on Privacy Goes Private 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011203221354.041336f8@pop3.lvcm.com>


Debate on Privacy Goes Private
In the debate about new surveillance powers for law enforcement officials, 
Americans, in various ways, are asking a basic question: Are we willing to 
curtail personal freedom in exchange for greater national security? Now, a 
debate heating up in Washington puts a twist on the query: Are we willing 
to curtail access to information in exchange for cybersecurity?

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/03/technology/ebusiness/03NECO.html




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 03:17:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:17:48 +1100
Subject: Micropayments and accurate polling
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203221606.00a18880@pop.useoz.com>


203.238.135.35.
Return of Micropayments
By Michael Hurwicz
Early attempts at micropayments have failed. Is it an innovative idea that 
needs more work, or a doomed concept?
Programming with Perl
Want accurate polls? Randal L. Schwartz provides a solution built around 
the fact that form validation using images is too clever for most robots.

from                         http://www.webtechniques.com/archives/2001/12/




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec  3 20:25:38 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 23:25:38 -0500
Subject: in praise of gold 
Message-ID: <200112040425.XAA07055@mail.lokmail.net>

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From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 14:02:19 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 00:02:19 +0200
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and
  implementation
References: 
Message-ID: <0c7b01c17c46$2db18c50$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "Sunder" 

> Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
> positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
> I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
> quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
> least they're funny...)

I think this is pretty much known behavior: reputation is more easily lost
than gained ("one angry customer tells other nine" and so on).

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 05:04:40 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 00:04:40 +1100
Subject: Declan murdered george harrison
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204000315.00a23b00@pop.useoz.com>


www.accuracy.org/articles/cato.htm

IPA Articles - Cato Institute
... Libertarian" in a Corporate Way. ... book "No Mercy: How Conservative 
Think Tanks and ... over
the years. Cato's main philanthropic backing ... come from the right-wing 
Koch ...
Description: Article explores the Cato Institute's funding and advocacy, 
which include large tobacco industry funding...
Category: Health > Addictions > Substance Abuse > Tobacco > Industry > 
Supporters
www.accuracy.org/articles/cato.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 00:17:20 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 00:17:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: in praise of gold 
In-Reply-To: <200112040425.XAA07055@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <20011204081720.91562.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>


> Bah. If you've always found that the women who are willing to sleep with you
> are

Look, I was discussing the meaning of "need" and pointlessness of attaching
moral qualifications to that.

But I'll have to oink to be understood. Prayers to the Godess of Semantics
didn't help.

> not spare yourself all the headaches and schedule appointments with an
escort,

Do you have any idea how much it costs to get a decent escort ? Between $750
and $2500 for the night. At $1500 average, once per week comes to $78K per
year, and that is not tax-deductible. State-sponsored whores are cheaper.

No, I am NOT taking offers on competitive services.

> might save you some real misery in the long run. That so many people are
driven
> to go through the motions of the very things that bring them the most
> unhappiness is a real shame.

Most people are perfectly happy to go through the motions. And they are not
asking to be saved.

> > "Fit" and "unfit" for "human companionship" are far to into
nacionalsocialist
> > ideology, I'd rather not go there.
> 
> It doesn't take a judgment by society at large to realize that some
> people really are better off alone instead of inflicting their destructive

You are again disbursing qualifications on the false assumption that anyone
shares common grounds with you. And you are even not consistent, since here you
seem to favour conformity. 'Some people' are 'better off', no shit ? Who gets
to decide what is destructive ? The majority, you imply.

You are a bigot.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Dec  4 00:30:07 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 00:30:07 -0800
Subject: Viridian Note 00283: Geeks and Spooks 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204124253.00a1e8e0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203225456.032c5b50@idiom.com>


http://www.viridiandesign.org/notes/251-300/00283_geeks_and_spooks.html

I'll echo Ken Brown's "Yee-hah!" rating for this article.
When Bruce goes on a rant, he goes on a rant, and this rant is worth reading
just for the literary value of a good rant, even if we get bashed
at least as much as Microsoft and the Spooks and the
Nixon/Reagan/Bush/Bush Administration do.

Bruce's suggestion for a recording device is somewhat different in style
from David Brin's various RodneyKing shouldercams and other ubiquitous cameras,
and a bit different from his fictionalizations in "Distraction",
but, hey, it's doable, and this is a ranting essay, not a calm book like
"The Transparent Society".

Bruce:
>."... I am suggesting secure, accountable devices with digital signatures 
>built in. They're cryptographically time-stamped, their voice signals and 
>photographs are cryptographically overwritten, proving their source. They 
>are tamperproofed, and very sternly verifiable, and usable as proven 
>evidence in courts of law. They're not civilian toys, they are genuine 
>weapons of information warfare, in much the same way that an unarmed 
>Predator surveillance aircraft is a weapon. They are people's media 
>weapons. Their proper use requires some training and discretion; it's like 
>a citizen's audiovisual arrest. This is the civilian militia Minuteman 
>version of surveillance. The omnipresense of this kind of civilian- owned 
>and civilian-deployed surveillance would not make anyone's society kinder 
>and happier. But it certainly would make that society a very dangerous 
>place for urban guerrillas. And it would not centralize the great power of 
>surveillance in the unstable hands of unelected functionaries...."




From Mailer-Daemon at city.toronto.on.ca  Mon Dec  3 22:49:05 2001
From: Mailer-Daemon at city.toronto.on.ca (Mailer-Daemon at city.toronto.on.ca)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 01:49:05 -0500
Subject: Message status - undeliverable
Message-ID: 

The message that you sent was undeliverable to the following:
	bjonkman
-------------- next part --------------
Information about your message:
	Subject: CDR: CFP: PKI research workshop

From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec  4 01:56:23 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 01:56:23 -0800
Subject: libertarian vs. socialist (Im a libertarian socialist!)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011203073248.00a235f0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0C2D47.4001.37E1D95@localhost>


    --
On 3 Dec 2001, at 8:06, mattd wrote:
> Disaster struck [anarcho socialism in Catalonia] for many
> reasons and it was not all as grim as the stories you put
> on the web.You could cite many more sources on your site
> that you wont thus letting people get away with questioning
> your honesty and motives.I simply agree with those that
> call you a liar on Spain

If you read through McKay's pages, he calls me a liar, but 
then concedes the important facts -- concedes that 
"anarchist" Catalonia was in fact a dictatorship that ruled
by terror, arguing not that I am lying because I say there
was terror and there was no terror, not that I am lying
because I say there was a dictatorship and there was no
dictatorship, but instead claiming I am a liar because I
imply there was unjust and oppressive terror whereas really
it was necessary and justified terror, that I am a liar
because I imply there was arrogant and cruel dictatorship
when really it was benevolent and kindly dictatorship.

For example in 
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2374/govern.html an 
McKay writes:

: :	Moving on, James Donald presents one of his more 
: :	outrageous statements.
: :	: : 	"then later, their leaders decided in 
: :	: : 	secret, in cheerful defiance of the 
: :	: : 	democratic procedures  to dissolve the 
: :	: : 	militia committee, to officially 
: :	: : 	recreate the state rather than 
: :	: : 	unofficially"

He then rants at great length that I am lying outrageously, 
and that what I say is completely contradicted by the very 
sources that I cite, but after all this ranting concedes:

: :	[...] James Donald is right in that the CNT made 
: :	the decision [...] in violation of its democratic 
: :	principles, since the rank and file were not 
: :	consulted.

The decision in question stripped the "anarchist" 
nomenclatura of its power, and fed it into the hands of their 
enemies.  If he concedes that the most important decision the 
"anarchists" ever made was made by a secretive elite, how 
then can my words be outragous?

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     AKpu2kepzNrk+gFVpsRFEhY123rgc5xUgow4eElm
     4BitZRQhAj4p9f2SbO+b0zQWmqJVLbIw4UK+QcVD/




From anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org  Tue Dec  4 00:22:18 2001
From: anmetet at freedom.gmsociety.org (An Metet)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:22:18 -0500
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
                   
Message-ID: 


>Havenco's talked for a while about metastasizing,
>putting servers in a bunch of places for reliable fast performance
>for non-critical data and mainly keeping the critical database parts

There are persistent rumors that Havenco does not really host anything on the platform, all bits are on dry land with VPN pipes to the platform, so that it looks off-shore hosted.

In other words, the platform is a decoy, storage-wise.

What matters is where bits enter 'known' Internet. Until communication infrastructure becomes truly distributed (forward-routing for the masses) this will remain the bottleneck and choke point. Kudos to Havenco for figuring this out.

Is secret publishing contradiction in terms ?




From info_sen at www.mail.org  Mon Dec  3 18:52:44 2001
From: info_sen at www.mail.org (universt)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 03:52:44 +0100
Subject: De su interes/publi.enseanza
Message-ID: <200112040250.fB42oIJ22715@waste.minder.net>


PUBLI/ENSEÑANZA
                                                                            
                                                                                            Learning 
University 
                                                                                            Area 
Master-Doctoral
                                                                                            
--------------------------------
                                                                                            
 
 
Distinguido Sr./Señora:
 
 
Gratamente nos dirigimos a vd.para informales sobre la posibilidad de 
realizar unos Masters, Doctorados, a distancia desde cualquier parte del 
mundo.Y LA POSIBILIDAD DE CONVALIDAR SU EXPERIENCIA 
LABORAL, ESTUDIOS ANTERIORES,PARA  PODER CERTIFICARLE 
DIPLOMATURAS EN DIFERENTES AREAS.
La enseñanza es a distancia y pueden seguirlo cómodamente en 
cualquier parte del mundo tanto el material de estudio como él envió de 
examen y la entrega de diplomas se efectúa a distancia.
Certificamos la experiencia a fin.
 
 
Areas de estudio enormemente practicas:
 
Area Economía:
 
 Marketing y Dirección de Empresas
Comunicación Social y Relaciones Publicas
MBA. Master Business Administraccion
Psicología Social y Empresa
Ecología y Medio Ambiente
PNL y Psicología Social
Promoción del Turismo
 Gestión Inmobiliaria y Inversiones
Internet y Nuevas Tecnologías 
 (Otros como enseñanzas convalidables, nuevas profesiones)
 ---------------
 
Area Terapias Alternativas:
 
Medicina Naturista Integral
Estética y Belleza
Fijo-Homeopatía
Medicina Ayuverdica
Terapias Manuales
Medicina China
Psicoterapia
Psicología Social y Humanista
 (Otros como enseñanzas convalidables,nuevas profesiones)
 
MAS DE 300.DIPLOMATURAS POR CONVALIDACION DE 
EXPERIENCIA LABORAL Y EDUCATIVA AFIN.
Envíenos un e-mail a BROK_UNI at terra.es  y le informaremos con la 
mayor brevedad sobre fecha de inicio, módulos de estudio, costes y 
condiciones generales, posibilidades.etc. 
 
 Sin otra que la de quedar de vds.
 
 
 Atentamente:
 
 
 
 Luis Rendell Bustos
 Area Broker-Learning University
 University Technology International
 Alicante
 e-Mail:
BROK_UNI at terra.es 
---------------
 
 Si desea ser borrado enviar e-mail a: 
remo_567 at eresmas.com




From mv at cdc.gov  Tue Dec  4 06:24:03 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 06:24:03 -0800
Subject: We have always been at war with Oceania bin Laden
Message-ID: <3C0CDC83.A77914A5@cdc.gov>


Reving up the population again,
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011203/ts/attacks_investigation.html

>> Meanwhile, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press that
  investigators have gathered evidence showing similarities among the
last
  three terrorist attacks against Americans by Osama bin Laden's
  supporters.

  Those attacks include the Sept. 11 suicide hijackings, the October
2000
  bombing of the USS Cole (news - web sites) in Yemen and the 1998
  bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa. <<

Note the omission of the Lebanese bomb which drove out Satan's Marines.
Wouldn't want to remind the sheeple that terrorism works.

>> ``We will respect the rights of political freedom and religious
freedom,
  and we are deeply committed to that,'' he said.

  ``But for so-called terrorists to gather over themselves some robe of
  clericism ... and claim immunity from being observed, people who
hijack
  a religion and make out of it an implement of war will not be free
from
  our interest.'' <<

Hijack a religion?  How about christian hatemongers?  And folks who use
religion to steal land?  And how about that recent religious persecution
of Mormons?

>> Ashcroft told ``Fox News Sunday'' that military tribunals would be
  limited to non-U.S. citizens and ``not just normal criminal activity,
but
  war crimes.''  <<

Would that exclude ex-Sen Kerry's war crimes then?




From HolidayOffers at pinnaclesys.com  Tue Dec  4 06:31:31 2001
From: HolidayOffers at pinnaclesys.com (HolidayOffers)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 06:31:31 -0800
Subject: Pinnacle Systems Holiday Offers
Message-ID: <200112041432.GAA17398@smtp2.pinnaclesys.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
Size: 21876 bytes
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URL: 

From 3238125travelincentives at aol.com  Tue Dec  4 06:32:38 2001
From: 3238125travelincentives at aol.com (3238125travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:32:38
Subject: 1000           Your Vacation Winning !                  3812532
Message-ID: 


You have been specially selected to qualify for the following:

Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway
To review the details of the please click on the link 
with the confirmation number below:

http://vacation.81832.com

Confirmation Number#Lh340
Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation.

Wishing you a fun filled vacation!
If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site 
do not hesitate to contact me direct:
mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help!




From 3239187travelincentives at aol.com  Tue Dec  4 06:32:39 2001
From: 3239187travelincentives at aol.com (3239187travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:32:39
Subject: 1496           Your Vacation Winning !                  3918732
Message-ID: <200203160616.BAA25924@mail.marsnyc.com>


You have been specially selected to qualify for the following:

Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway
To review the details of the please click on the link 
with the confirmation number below:

http://vacation.81832.com

Confirmation Number#Lh340
Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation.

Wishing you a fun filled vacation!
If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site 
do not hesitate to contact me direct:
mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help!




From 3241921travelincentives at aol.com  Tue Dec  4 06:32:41 2001
From: 3241921travelincentives at aol.com (3241921travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:32:41
Subject: 7368           Your Vacation Winning !                  4192132
Message-ID: <200112031733312.SM01672@plain>


You have been specially selected to qualify for the following:

Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway
To review the details of the please click on the link 
with the confirmation number below:

http://vacation.81832.com

Confirmation Number#Lh340
Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation.

Wishing you a fun filled vacation!
If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site 
do not hesitate to contact me direct:
mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help!




From 3247109travelincentives at aol.com  Tue Dec  4 06:32:47 2001
From: 3247109travelincentives at aol.com (3247109travelincentives at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 06:32:47
Subject: 872           Your Vacation Winning !                  4710932
Message-ID: <200112032241.RAA27417@oracle2.marsnyc.com>


You have been specially selected to qualify for the following:

Premium Vacation Package and Pentium PC Giveaway
To review the details of the please click on the link 
with the confirmation number below:

http://vacation.81832.com

Confirmation Number#Lh340
Please confirm your entry within 24 hours of receipt of this confirmation.

Wishing you a fun filled vacation!
If you should have any additional questions or cann't connect to the site 
do not hesitate to contact me direct:
mailto:vacation at btamail.net.cn?subject=Help!




From mail at teleseminarsrus.com  Tue Dec  4 07:41:01 2001
From: mail at teleseminarsrus.com (TeleseminarsRus)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 7:41:01 AM -0000
Subject: Bear Attacks NASDQ in December
Message-ID: <100748038801@aquarius.hosting4u.net>


Dear Gang:

Based on my conversations with Dave Brennan, Vic Schiller and Chris Manning, 
technical analysis indicates that we are going to have a Nasdq pullback 
before Christmas.  I am emailing you to let you that we are getting prepared 
to profit on the coming Bear attack on the NASDQ.  I am going to have an 
immediate "Emergency How To Profit From The Nasdq Correction, before 
Christmas TeleSeminar"  It will be on December 11th 6pm PAcific Time.  The 
traders that are ready are going to make money when the Bear swipes at the 
NASDQ.  I have a special guest lined up who will discuss how to protect 
positions you have now, how to make money of the coming pullback, how to deal 
emotionally and confidently with the coming pullback.  I don't want anyone to 
miss this call, especially if you have never played the downside.  You will 
learn how to play the downside easily, naturally and confidently. Most of all 
you will make money.  This can be a big opportunity for the trader that knows 
how to profit from a pullback!

Sign up for this call on December 11th and I will give you all of the calls 
for jam-packed star studded month of December for only $99!!  Call the office 
now 1-888-870-9754.  Here are the Teleseminars we have already lined up for 
you:

We will tape this, Dec 6th and send it to you, if you didn't get on the call! 
  December 6  -  Meet Jeanne Gabellini, she is one of the nation's top 
private personal "Money" coaches to many individuals (some Famous people we 
can't mention).  Jeanne has been doing this professionally for the last 8 
years.  Her specialty is helping people deal with money!  She will help us 
uncover the 3 habits and patterns that are keeping us from wealth.  She will 
help us identify money making strategies we have been missing.  She will help 
us formulate a Money Plan!  Learn the Law Of Attracting Money - which anyone 
can leverage to create/attract more money in their life NOW!  Jeanne has 
worked very closely with  Robert Kiyosaki (the author of "Rich Dad, Poor 
Dad") infact, she teaches several of his classes.  She will be sharing 
details of what dramatic changes we can make to create wealth quickly in our 
lives!  This call will be very exciting!

December 13  - Our Next Guest has appeared on "CNBC Power Lunch," NBC, CNN, 
CNNfn, and MSNBC. She has also been featured on CBS MarketWatch.com and in 
Fortune Magazine (March, 2001).  She is a very, very busy lady who is a 
National Best Selling Author of THREE books:  Called "A Beginners Guide To 
Daytrading On-Line", "A Beginners Guide To Short Selling",  "A Beginners 
GuideTo Short Term Investing".  She comes very highly recommended from one of 
our clients.  He met her and was so impressed by her that we had to have her 
as our guest.  Her name is Toni Turner.  I caught up with Toni just after she 
broke her foot, so she couldn't run far.  I talked to Toni for 30 minutes and 
I knew immediately that this lady is genuinely interested in sharing her 
trading knowledge, experience, tips, techniques and tactics with serious 
individuals that want major results in their trading accounts, in a short 
amount of time.  Her commitment is even on her website it reads:  "My goal is 
to teach active traders and short term investors how to participate in the 
stock market safely and profitably, without losing their shirts, or blouses".. 
 She specializes in Day Trading and Swing Trading.  Yes, you can still make 
big money doing this and especially with Toni's proven tools.  She does 
seminars around the nation.  She uses technical analysis as the key to her 
success.  She confessed to me, like most people, she lost most all of your 
trading portfolio when she first started trading and that experience allowed 
her the burning desire to master trading.  When I say master trading, you 
will find out exactly how good of a trader she really is. She may be the best 
trader that no one knows about and that I have met.  I can't get into too 
much detail of what she will be talking about, however it will involve Candle 
Stick Charting, how to get in and why to get out of a trade.  As a bonus she 
will talk about her favorite indicators that she uses to make money 
consistently!

December 18 - December 18 - Rob Stanley 
This is our first diversified investment Teleseminar. I use to live in 
Dallas, Texas and I was able to met and hear about some really good oil and 
natural gas companies. The organization that we are interviewing is 
recognized as one of America's more successful independent oil and gas 
companies. Comprised of carefully selected oil and gas professionals, Reef's 
management represents an important synergism of industry experience in the 
key areas of finance, land, geological and geophysical exploration, drilling, 
completion, and production. This experienced management team, together with 
highly skilled technical consultants and the latest computer technology, 
enables Reef to operate without layers of corporate bureaucracy to make 
faster, more aggressive decisions which have resulted in significant 
discoveries of oil and natural gas reserves. What really impressed me was 
that the individuals that are running thecompany, the one with the least 
experience has been in the industry 17 years. Rob Stanley, who has been in 
the oil industry for numerous years will visit with us about why oil and 
natural gas investments are great right now, how to get involved, what to 
know before getting involved, 3 mistakes investors make and how to avoid 
them, tax credits and tax eliminate tools, secrets about the industry no one 
will tell you, how wealth is created in this industry, how to cut your risk 
and get great returns! If you have ever thought about orheard about oil and 
natural gas investments Rob is going to share everything with us. Join us!

December 20 -  I met this guy last summer a friend of mine was/is real 
impressed with the returns she has been getting with this guy's website.  
Allow me to introduce to you Vic Schiller, who is a successful options trader 
and has one of the hottest options websites on the planet.  He has a patented 
formula for screening and helping you find the stocks that you are looking 
for.  It is called SmartSearchXL, a patented decision support technology that 
identifies the highest return option trade opportunities.  This allows you 
the convenience and control required to automatically sort, filter, screen, 
organize and analyze a database of all 2,700+ optionable stocks and 100,000+ 
options online to find investments to meet your profit goals. Plus he brings 
together timely essential data, extensive analysis, and comprehensive option 
information.  With the tools that Vic has helped develop, it allows you to 
make money in bullish, bearish or a stagnant stock market.   The thing I like 
most about Vic�s information is once you get all of this data (are there can 
be a lot of it)  he then gives and teaches strategies that you can apply and 
start making money with.  I have not met too many people that believe in 
their product so much that they have an incredible and unheard of guarantee.  
Here is how it reads:  "If during any month you do not make at least five 
times your subscription fee on your option investments, your next month's 
subscription fee will be free."  He is specifically going to address:   How 
he picks and exits option trades.  He is going to go over specifics  that 
have made him a great trader and consistent moneymaker.  The Secrets to how 
"You" can squeeze dividend-like income from non-dividend paying tech stocks.  
 How to insure the value of your portfolio the same way you buy car 
insurance?  How you can use options to hedge your stock portfolio and make 
more money.  He is going to go over his "never before revealed" way of 
charting?  As a bonus he is going to go over the secrets he found to PUTS, 
his 5 General investing rules of thumb and 10 Of His Very Own Secret Tricks 
of Trading.

Call the office now to register for all Bear Teleseminar and get all of calls 
for December for FREE, 1-888-870-9754, all for only $99.  

Let's Make Some Money Despite Market Direction,
>From The People That Are Brining Information Home To You

PS - As Always 100% Satisfaction Guarantee NO RISK Or Your Money Back!  Call 
now 1-888-870-9754, first Teleseminar is December 11th.  Call before December 
6th and get on the call live.  If you can't make it we will tape it and mail 
it to you.




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Dec  4 04:49:27 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:49:27 -0500 (est)
Subject: Speech May Not Be Free, but It's Refundable
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011203174735.007fc240@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


Then that would involve the FCC which wouldn't be pure speech.  Besides,
roasted Choate won't be so appetizing.  I find it more fun tweaking him on
his errors. :)


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 11:42 AM 12/3/01 -0500, Sunder wrote:
> >Ok, then I propose to surround your property from any vantage point on
> >public land, and setup gigantic speakers from which I would recite very
> >loud speeches in your direction at 3:00am.
> 
> Why not do some high-power microwave testing in his direction? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Dec  4 06:12:52 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:12:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: eCash reported morbidly wounded
Message-ID: 



http://fuckedcompany.com/

>Cashed
 Rumor has it eCash.net will be closing down any day now... aquisition fell
 through, around 40 people soon-to-be jobless.
 When: 12/4/2001
 Company: eCash.net
 Severity: 100 - new hall of fame inductee!

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Dec  4 05:17:39 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:17:39 -0500 (est)
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and
  implementation
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Erm, errata ESC:%s/Mr Measels/mattd/g

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Sunder wrote:

> 
> Thanks for the pointer, a very good essay indeed. :)
> 
> I haven't checked in any meaningful way, but that thread doesn't seem to
> have any replies from Ralph...  Do you recall any details as to what would
> cause oscillations?  Would be interesting to explore this.
> 
> I expect that having a way to prove collusion by checking who praises
> whom, etc. would likely avoid such problems.  As would I suppose personal
> observation of current behavior.
> 
> Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
> positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
> I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
> quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
> least they're funny...)




From awuley at SoftHome.net  Tue Dec  4 08:24:08 2001
From: awuley at SoftHome.net (awuley at SoftHome.net)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:24:08
Subject: Hi, this is for you!!!
Message-ID: <200112040817.AAA22911@ecotone.toad.com>


  	
Dear Friend and Future Millionaire,

My wife recently received this e-mail and forwarded it to me to review. We've both several 
times read completely through it and have been in contact with some of the individuals 
listed 
below.
We think it's really an excellent opportunity that is well worth the small investment of time 
and money, and believe that you will, too!

AS SEEN ON US NATIONAL TV:

Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of 
only 
$25 U.S. Dollars expense one time
THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET !

BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!!

Before you say ''Bull'', please read on the following. This is the letter you have been hearing 
about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national 
weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program 
described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated 
whether 
or not the program was legal.

Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the 
participation in the program and if people can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound 
to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT 
INCREASE OF 
POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY 
WORKING BETTER THAN EVER.

This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many 
times before but each time I passed on it. I am
so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and 
money required.
To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in 21 weeks,
with money still coming in."
Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another testimonial:

"This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when 
I 
received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple 
instructions and walaa ...... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only 
made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the 
past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing 
it 
again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change 
anything.''

More testimonials later but first,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ======

If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, 
please 
read the following...
THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN!!!

FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL 
COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! 
INSTRUCTIONS:

Order all 5 reports shown on the list below

For each report, send US$5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE 
ORDERING and YOUR E-
MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. 
MAKE SURE YOUR 
RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail 
problems.

When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.
You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. 
YOUR 
TOTAL INVESTMENT COST US$5 X 5=US$25.00.
Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different 
individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 
1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and 
keep it 
on your desk in case something happens to your computer.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or 
their 
sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' 
or you will loose out on a majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, 
you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been 
tested, 
and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names 
on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, 
and Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will 
not 
work for you.
Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & 
address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no 
doubt 
counting their fortune
2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5.
3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.
4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.
5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2
6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you 
copy every 
name & address ACCURATELY!

 Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO 
NOT 
MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.

Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing 
your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with very 
invaluable 
marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find 
thousands 
of free classified ads and much more.



There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going:
METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and 
those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive 
only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. 
Also 
many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). 
Continuing 
with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 
orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a 
total 
of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people 
responded and ordered Report # 2.

Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500, 000
e-mails.The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3.

Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 
0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4.

Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-
mails.

The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report
# 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million).
Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3.... $5,000 + 4.... $50,000 + 
5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00


NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST 
POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO 
MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL SURELY EARN BACK YOUR MINOR 
INVESTMENT (US$25), STILL 
GETTING INVALUABLE MARKETING INFORMATION AND MAKE A LOT OF MONEY !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO.

Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those 
people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are presently over 150 million people on 
the 
Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

Advertising on the net is very inexpensive and there are hundreds
of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger 
response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go 
along. For 
every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. 
Always 
provide same day service on all orders.
This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and

address on it, will be prompt because they cannot advertise until they receive the report.

=========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ====================
ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.
====================================================
Notes:
1) Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY only) for each Report.
Because of the global coverage of the program, Checks, other currencies or Money Orders 
can NOT 
be accepted. (US$ notes you can obtain from your nearest bank/major hotel/money 
exchanger)

2) Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper.

3) On one of those sheets of paper, Write:

   1. the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering,

   2. YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and

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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec  4 08:50:24 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:50:24 -0800
Subject: Untraceable money now more than ever!
Message-ID: <02E4A9C4-E8D7-11D5-9093-0050E439C473@got.net>

Or, "Why We Fight."

Just thought I'd pass along this gem I found in one of the newsgroups. 
If true, it shows the unlawful/extralegal reach of government into the 
pockets of persons not tried, not convicted, not even charged, not even 
plausibly guilty of anything.

This guy is having his OWN MONEY blocked, probed, and frozen. No 
charges, no court, just done by forces unseen to him.

Editorial comment: The Founders would likely be stunned to see 
bureaucrats in a distant city able to reach in and essentially grab the 
money of a person without any due process, without fines or 
court-ordered seizures, just on the say-so of a bureaucrat. This guy 
below _wrote_ about it, so there are probably hundreds more just like 
him who choose not to further anger Big Brother by writing angry letters.

Me, I'd be so angry I'd probably be strapping on the plastic 
explosives....

Read it and stoke your righteous anger:

--begin article--
This was in today's Washington Post.  Check it out at
www.washingtonpost.com

=============== Letters to the Post ==
Whose Sacrifice?

Monday, December 3, 2001; Page A20

American citizens are willing to sacrifice civil liberties in the fight
against terrorism [front page, Nov. 29], but which Americans are doing
the sacrificing?

Since Sept. 11 the FBI has interviewed me at work and at home because
my name is similar not to that of one of the hijackers, but to an
individual arrested with suspected links to the terrorists.

The FBI has contacted my broker, my neighbors and my friends to learn
more about me. I was purchasing an apartment, but when I needed to give
my down payment at closing I was informed by my bank that my accounts
were frozen. No one informed me nor could anyone help me resolve the
problem. Only an angry settlement attorney was able to unfreeze the
funds.

A month passed, and all seemed normal. Then I found out again that I
did not have access to transfer funds from my accounts without
government approval.

I am a federal employee. I have not been charged with a crime. I do not
support terrorism, and I was willing to help the law enforcement
agencies. It was my duty as an American to answer all the questions
asked of me.

But as time goes by and I have to get "clearance" every time I want to
make a bank transfer, I feel victimized. Every time I travel and receive
the extra security checks because of my name it makes me trust my
government less. What scares me even more is that I am an American
citizen, and that is why I am not in jail. If I were not a citizen I
could be one of the hundreds of detainees, or I could be in sitting in
front of a secret military court only because the crime I am guilty of
is that my name is Ali Ayub and not Joe Smith.

ALI AYUB

Arlington

  ˇ 2001 The Washington Post Company

--end article--



--Tim May
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third 
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're 
around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet
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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec  4 08:56:01 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:56:01 -0800
Subject: Reputation capital
In-Reply-To: <0dea01c17cc7$8ebe8030$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: 



On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 05:28 AM, Marcel Popescu wrote:

> I think all this stuff about reputations is being solved pretty neatly 
> by
> the credit bureaus... up to getting scalars on people / companies.
>
> Mark
>

This is naive. Credit bureaus handle only a particular class of 
reputations, certain types of credit-worthiness, and then with 
well-documented deep flaws:

-- regulation by government

-- "Fair Credit Reporting Act" forbids them from "remembering" certain 
classes of defaults and welshings

-- lack of competition (the Three use the same precise standards)


If you are rejoining the discussions after a long absence, you need to 
get up to speed.




--Tim May
"The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the 
government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec  4 09:14:17 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:14:17 -0800
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0C93E9.18326.3CFD4F@localhost>


    --
On 4 Dec 2001, at 10:29, mattd wrote:
> It is cryptoANARCHY isnt it? Not cryptolibertarianism.

Non libertarian anarchy?

The trouble is that a lot of socialists call themselves  
anarchists either as a simple cynical lie:

(parody of standard commie liar)
: : 	"This time the state really will wither away.  
: : 	Trust us.  We are different.  Once we have total 
: : 	power over you and yours you will love it."

or, perhaps more commonly, as mere muddy thinking

(parody of muddle headed socialist)
: : 	"I am really opposed to concentrated authority,  
: : 	therefore when I and people like me have all the 
: : 	necessary power to do all the good we intend to  
: : 	do to those selfish ignorant ungrateful masses,  
: : 	it will be the opposite of concentrated  
: : 	authority."

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     noO5pPej46r7P7h1muODQygDC7StZC5seKNQe7pH
     42DLX4qLtNl4C5FSyuxdyvd8A+pxSAh/GPBn1YAhL




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec  4 09:25:34 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:25:34 -0800
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
In-Reply-To: <20011204191450.G29550@tigerteam.net>
Message-ID: 



On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 04:14 AM, Fyodor wrote:

>> <> talentless
>> government to exist.>>
>>
>> Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is 
>> incompetent -
>> but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the 
>> more
>> chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs.
>>
>
> Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear understanding
> what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely
> ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare
> to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep
> involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign
> corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
> of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) 
> of
> all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
> russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
> post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
> environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.

This matches everything I have seen about Russia. It simply is 
implausible that "corruption and inefficiency means more opportunities 
for economies behind their backs" (to summarize the argument).

What Russia shows is that privatizing a state-run economy is difficult 
indeed. Gazprom, the big gas and energy company, is a case in point. 
There was no "free market" to acquire the resources of this "privatized" 
company: the thugs and apparatchniks (sp?) grabbed the company. And they 
are willing to use former KGB, GRU, and Spetsnaz killers to enforce 
their monopoly.

What about non-heavy industry? Television, for example? Read about the 
ongoing shutdown of Moscow independent stations and networks, on flimsy 
grounds having the _language_ of capitalism (stuff about "loan default") 
but actually being just part of the thugocracy approach. (The U.S. is 
not blameless here. Our own FCC applies similar rules sometimes to block 
stations. And woe unto any Islamic broadcaster, where the new language 
is that the First Amendment does not apply to "hate speech" or "speech 
insulting to other religions." At this rate, the long-awaited 
convergence of Russia and America is not far off.)

Russia as a haven for Havenco? For digital money? For e-commerce?

Laughable.

--Tim May
>
--Tim May
"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third 
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're 
around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet




From schear at lvcm.com  Tue Dec  4 09:52:54 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 09:52:54 -0800
Subject: NTT Develops Digital Cash System
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011204095214.03fc7ff8@pop3.lvcm.com>


http://www.ntt.co.jp/news/news01e/0111/011129.html

November 29, 2001
Digital cash that can be used to purchase services and goods with complete
safety and at high speed is here now.
-Its usage is virtually unlimited, from simple store purchases to bus fare
payments to regular cash register transactions.
- Digital cash can be downloaded through many public telephones.




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  3 23:58:56 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:58:56 +0200
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
References: <3C0BD96E.E0AEEA31@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <0d4101c17c99$862f93b0$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "Michael Motyka" 

> Minimizing the risk of individuals within the organization is
> not equivalent to optimizing the organization's performance.

Good one. Reminds me of the "nobody got fired for buying IBM" phrase I read
a few years ago.

Mark




From iu_ygv_iuyt1 at mail.com  Mon Dec  3 23:11:44 2001
From: iu_ygv_iuyt1 at mail.com (TRE)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:11:44 +0300
Subject: =?windows-1251?Q?=D2=D3=D0=C8=C7=CC_=C8_=C4=C5=CB=CE=C2=DB=C5_=CF=CE=C5=C7=C4=CA=C8_=C2_=D0=CE=D1=D1=C8=DE?=
Message-ID: <150882001122471144108@mail.com>


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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 15:29:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:29:50 +1100
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20043&group=webcast

For reprint of pensioners story.AND...

Anarchist Pamphlet (28 pages) (english)
by Blake 12:23pm Mon Dec 3 '01
Blake at riseup.net

This is a critique of the global economy from an anarchist perspective. It 
is meant for outreach to non-anarchists.

Download attached file: anarchistpamphlet.pdf (mimetype: application/pdf )
This is a pamphlet critiquing the global economy from an anarchist 
perspective. It is meant for outreach to non-anarchists. It is written in 
non-technical language and has nice pictures.

It is cryptoANARCHY isnt it? Not cryptolibertarianism.For anarchist and 
social democratic critiques of libertarians,SEE...
http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html

Esp...   http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html   I havent seen the 
'blake' one yet,But I am an anarchist getting into crypto and insulted by 
the abuse and disrespecting of anarchism here where its needed the 
most.CRYPTOANARCHY!




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 15:50:00 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:50:00 +1100
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204103927.009fac60@pop.useoz.com>


"...Someone once remarked that the most unimaginitive, laziest Harvard 
graduate students at the bottom of their class tend to end up at the IMF 
and UN. Sort of sinkholes of mediocrity. Oh well! ~Faustine."

Luckily we now have 'open source' AP to take out the ones that get to be 
president.Did you see my 2 previous post F?

1) Faustine wrote...
."..good old boring long-faced church-every-Sunday solid-citizen Robert P.
Hanssen. If his FBI colleagues had been asked to rate him by your above
criteria, he probably would have been in the high 200s all across the
board. And maybe deservedly so. But since those factors weren't in any way,
shape, or form relevant to the fact that he was also the kind of person who
could sell out his country for the sheer pleasure of the game of it, he got
away with murder for years until he got careless and his shitty tradecraft
finally caught up with him."

His tradecraft was rather good I thought,especially in not trusting his
handlers with direct contact.Possibly he was done in by sex addiction
common to many repressed septic tanks(yanks) W.Reichs,mass psychology of
facism describes syndrome.Also wanted on some level to get caught,much like
Ted special K.(and USAma bin laden?)
Did he really get away with murder? Feh.Aldrich ames did and his rep
survived polygraphs so reputations are bollocks unless panocoptincons and
regular stings/tests are done.Hanssen didnt tell the russkies anything they
couldnt have worked out them selves.

No response? Trawling for bigger game? pot bellied,aging brilliant thorns 
in the side of your country? Then...'In praise of gold:

"...nothing more than a cop-out. So it seems to me, at any rate. ~Faustine. "

Like you last week (agent ?) faustine (cop-in?) Silence speaks volumes in
this house.

Im calling you out as a patriotic,slightly dim little bitch at the very 
least,Well?




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 00:52:21 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:52:21 +0200
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "mattd" 

>
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20043&group=webcast

This is almost a classic...

<>

Good. You'd say the author has a brain. (Then again, why would mattd point
to the article in that case?)

But no...

<>

So, the problem is the government, but not because they're evil - no, that's
ok; BECAUSE THEY'RE INEFFICIENT???? Hello? You wanted 99% - 1% instead of
the 95% - 5% divide that you complain about now?

<>

Surprising only for those with no knowledge of economics. Without private
property you can't have development.

But wait!

<>

Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is incompetent -
but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the more
chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs.

<>

The people don't exist, so they can't be natural owners of anything. SOME
people - certain people, Ivan and Natasha and Grigori - can own previously
unowned natural resources, if they use them first. But you can't *return*
unowned property - you can only be the first to claim it. So, go there and
claim it! (No, they'll shoot you. You can fight the government with better
weapons or better ideology. So far, the ideology sucks.)

<>

Ok, so the problem is lack of private property (socialism), and the solution
is? Correct! More socialism! Why the heck would I do anything with my
resources, if almost all the revenue from it would be divided among the
vodka-drinking idiots of the country? (Well, I know, the new man and stuff.)

<>

Ok, so russians don't have money to buy the land, but they have money to
rent it. And the income from these rents? Why, it goes back to themselves!
And so they'll get RICH, RICH, RICH!!! (Dammit, nobody figured this out
before...) Of course, we could encourage the rich bastards to rent a lot of
land, and so we'd take their money and redistribute it. Yes, but what
happens if they subrent it, and then evict tenants for non-payment? We can't
allow that! There are CHILDREN there! (There is a solution to this too -
socialism is wonderful! We'll confiscate their land, vilify them for not
being nice to people, and then ask them to rent it again, because we need
their money.)

[I just realized I use too many damn exclamation points. And profanity.
Hmm... I must like this system.]

<>

Of course, who cares about the fact that Russia is just a small part of the
Union? We're all one big family. (And now that I think about it, all those
Eastern European satellites are just provinces in rebellion. They must join
back or else.)

<>

Actually, the three *basic* factors are labor, natural resources (aka land),
and TIME. Capital is simply producers goods - wealth that was built not for
consumption, but to make future production more efficient.

<>

Oops. Are you sure you want to go there? If you compensate people based on
their investment, then you'll have CAPITALISM! You don't want that! You want
to compensate them *equally*, so that everyone stays at home and becomes a
millionaire from the rents that all the others are paying! Yeah!

<>

The second statement is true, but it actually negates the first. If they
were given to you, then they belong to you.

<>

Actually, your forefathers pretty much killed everyone that dared to oppose
the state, plus they invaded other countries. Nothing's as good as a healthy
dose of nerve, is it?

<>

Anyone close whack this guy over the head, will you? If revenue cannot
belong to individuals, it can't belong to "the nation in the person of each
Russian citizen". (Oh, wait a second, I might be wrong - Russian citizens
might not be individuals, but parts of a super-organism. Who knows? I've
never been there, it's too cold.)

<>

Definitely! Who needs work? We'll all sit and enjoy revenue from the land!
(Thinking about who's going to pay those revenues is economics, and economic
s is boring.)

<>

It is easy, but you failed. (Gee, how do you handle tough stuff?) The market
works when there are buyers and sellers, period. Money is just an
intermediary, one that gets developed by those buyers and sellers because it
helps them find each other easier, and thus they make a better profit.
(Oops! We can't use the p-word here!)

<>

They're not failing. They simply don't exist. You need private property in
order to HAVE anything to sell or buy.

<>

This so reminds me of "we don't sell our country"... (Very popular slogan
right after our "revolution".) Right in line with "we work, not think".

Of course, this isn't impossible - after all, the people of Earth have
managed to get by even without the help of the Martian Trade Federation, so
Russia can do it without any trade with other countries. But the issue here
is: if *I* want to trade with a foreigner (and thus send my income from
rentals and natural resources abroad), will I be forcefully prevented from
doing so? If I will, then it's not private property anymore - it's not MY
income, but the state's, to be used as it sees fit. If I won't, then you'll
see a LOT of revenue going abroad - Russian electronics (to give just one
example) might be solid, but they're horrible when it comes to quality and
design.

Also, notice the reference to "what people really need". This means "what
the State wants" (or, in the case of an alleged anarchist, "what I want").
But they really need it, honest!

<>

Can't do that! Who will force the citizens to pay the rent that will make
everyone rich???

Ok, I got bored.

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 16:05:28 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:05:28 +1100
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and
  implementation 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204105337.00a1deb0@pop.useoz.com>


Response to...This is often known as "collaborative filtering", and pops up in
systems like NoCeM and GroupLens.  What's cool is that you don't need
transitive trust or even poster reputations (anonymity without so much
vandalism!).  Just give the right reviewers the reputation "good/bad
judgment about which articles are worth reading"--and you can find
them by reviewing some articles yourself and measuring similarity of
answers.  Etc,etc.

The last 2 aussi elections have featured something called 'the worm'.Its a 
dial that the studio audience control at the main debates.Individually 
control and all results show as a wavey line(the worm) on TV for the 
masses.A very strong plunge in the worm when talk turned to the new VAT 
tax,the GST. Some biometric feedback on the political reputation of 
politicians.
The fact barely 50% bother voting in the US and UK being another.Rating 
articles is possible at sydney IMC.Often abused IMO.




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Dec  4 02:33:45 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:33:45 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: FBI Reorganization Posted (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 05:27:50 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: FBI Reorganization Posted


>
>FBI has just created an entire division devoted to "cyber crime," on par
>with its criminal, counter-terrorism and counter-intelligence divisions.
>
>http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/eads/chart.htm

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 16:37:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:37:48 +1100
Subject: Emergency!
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204112858.00a25bd0@pop.useoz.com>


Emergence - the tendency of systems to evolve and self-organise - is the 
driving theme of an international digital-art conference in Melbourne this 
week.
Second Iteration, at Monash University, will explore the role of artificial 
intelligence, Darwin's theory of evolution and complex systems in modern 
art and music.

In an ongoing cypherpunks emergency,so called libertarians have been 
exposed as right wing,conservative and corporate shills that hijacked this 
list in a low pathetic attempt to divert and dam the exploding 
cryptoanarchist revolution.
Such 'names' as declan,tim  and ,jamesd stand exposed.They are wreckers of 
the revolution.Damn them to hell.




From infomacao at giganetstore.com  Tue Dec  4 03:45:16 2001
From: infomacao at giganetstore.com (infomacao at giganetstore.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:45:16 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?O_Rudolfo_=E9_um_f=E3_dos__leil=F5es_ao_pre=E7o_da_banana!?=
Message-ID: <055aa17451104c1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>




 


Os leilões ao preço da Banana no Gigaleilão.com
  

Não perca estas oportunidades...
  
Corrector Ortográfico FLiP 3 (Win) - CD-Rom.
Ferramentas fundamentais para a Língua Portuguesa!
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Fecho 07/12 15:00 Base de licitação 4.500$!$ 
  
Webcam III Plus Creative. 
Não gostaria de ver com quem está a comunicar na internet? Compre já por
apenas 6.500$! 
Fecho 07/12 15:00 Base de licitação 6.500$ 
  

Only Pain is real dos Silence Four.
Oportunidade única de ter este magnífico cd ao preço da banana!
Compre já por apenas 1.500$! 
Fecho 07/12 15:00
Base de licitação 1.500$ 
  
Tinteiro Preto 51626A da HP Serie -300/400/500. 
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E muito mais... em www.gigaleilao.com  . 
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mercado online português.

Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http:\\www.giganetstore.com  , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços.
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From ichudov at Algebra.COM  Tue Dec  4 10:12:06 2001
From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:12:06 -0600
Subject: Registering a moment of invention?
Message-ID: <20011204121206.A2505@manifold.algebra.com>


I invented something that I consider quite valuable.

It is an idea for a mathematical method.

It already works as intended, in a business process.

I am not interested in patenting this shit, however, I want to make sure that
I get the credit for this invention when (if ever) it becomes publicly known.

So I would like some kind of real timestamping service. I would prefer
something meatspace based, like a notary or US mail based or whatever.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

igor




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 17:47:13 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:47:13 +1100
Subject: Viridian Note 00283: Geeks and Spooks 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204124253.00a1e8e0@pop.useoz.com>


."... I am suggesting secure, accountable devices with digital signatures 
built in. They're cryptographically time-stamped, their voice signals and 
photographs are cryptographically overwritten, proving their source. They 
are tamperproofed, and very sternly verifiable, and usable as proven 
evidence in courts of law. They're not civilian toys, they are genuine 
weapons of information warfare, in much the same way that an unarmed 
Predator surveillance aircraft is a weapon. They are people's media 
weapons. Their proper use requires some training and discretion; it's like 
a citizen's audiovisual arrest. This is the civilian militia Minuteman 
version of surveillance. The omnipresense of this kind of civilian- owned 
and civilian-deployed surveillance would not make anyone's society kinder 
and happier. But it certainly would make that society a very dangerous 
place for urban guerrillas. And it would not centralize the great power of 
surveillance in the unstable hands of unelected functionaries...."

Why stop there? With a personally crypto encoded metalstorm E-Gun you could 
be a 'judge dread',citizen unit of the Anarchist Federation.




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Tue Dec  4 04:51:08 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:51:08 +0000
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0CC6BB.8F5FE723@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


An Metet wrote:
 
> >Havenco's talked for a while about metastasizing,
> >putting servers in a bunch of places for reliable fast performance
> >for non-critical data and mainly keeping the critical database parts
> 
> There are persistent rumors that Havenco does not really host anything on the platform, all bits are on dry land with VPN pipes to the platform, so that it looks off-shore hosted.
> 
> In other words, the platform is a decoy, storage-wise.

Server hosting is now a boring, commodity business.   You needs some
marketing ploy to get mindshare from potential customers.

The kind of people who decide where their company's servers are to be
hosted are often the kind of people who used to make plastic models of
military hardware when they were kids. Who have coffee-table books about
planes with lots of pointy bits. Maybe even ones who read Bruce Sterling
novels. They also like to think that their data is Really Important.

Sealand or the Bunker (http://www.thebunker.net/) are good PR,
regardless of the technical merits of their locations.

Ken Brown




From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Tue Dec  4 11:49:44 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:50:44 -0459
Subject: Just Received New Motorola V 60c In  $ 369.00 !!!
Message-ID: <20011204163162.SM01068@carlo>

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From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Tue Dec  4 11:49:45 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:50:45 -0459
Subject: Just Received New Motorola V 60c In  $ 369.00 !!!
Message-ID: <200112041631406.SM01068@carlo>

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From faustine at lokmail.net  Tue Dec  4 11:57:04 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:57:04 -0500
Subject: in praise of gold
Message-ID: <200112041957.OAA14935@mail.lokmail.net>

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From jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  4 07:23:31 2001
From: jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com (jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:23:31 -00
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <1400217-220011224152331580@hotmail.com>


hello




From jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  4 07:23:35 2001
From: jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com (jackys24hrparty at hotmail.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:23:35 -00
Subject: hello
Message-ID: <832818-220011224152335150@hotmail.com>


hello




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 05:28:27 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:28:27 +0200
Subject: Reputation capital
Message-ID: <0dea01c17cc7$8ebe8030$5300a8c0@marcel>


I think all this stuff about reputations is being solved pretty neatly by
the credit bureaus... up to getting scalars on people / companies.

Mark




From mdfa43 at dial.pipex.com  Tue Dec  4 08:33:52 2001
From: mdfa43 at dial.pipex.com (MoneyLink)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 01 16:33:52 GMT Standard Time
Subject: Shocking way of making 1 Million Dollars on the Internet...
Message-ID: <200112041757.JAA25482@toad.com>

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From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Tue Dec  4 07:49:40 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:49:40 +0100
Subject: ashcroft still buggering freedom
References: <3C0BA761.B9672245@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <51eaa34857ad85d31cfbe34b650c1af2@mix.winterorbit.com>


hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes:

[reformated as a courtesy to the list]

> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nyt/20011201/ts/ashcroft_seeking_to_free_f_b_i_to_spy_on_groups_1.html
>
> Saturday December 01 09:01 AM EST
>
> Ashcroft Seeking to Free F.B.I. to Spy on Groups
>
> By DAVID JOHNSTON and DON VAN NATTA Jr. The New York Times
>
> Attorney General John Ashcroft is considering a plan to relax
> restrictions on the F.B.I.'s spying on religious and political
> organizations.
>
> WASHINGTON, Nov. 30 Attorney General John Ashcroft is considering
> a plan to relax restrictions on the F.B.I.'s spying on religious
> and political organizations in the United States, senior government
> officials said today.
>
> The proposal would loosen one of the most fundamental restrictions
> on the conduct of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and would be
> another step by the Bush administration to modify civil-liberties
> protections as a means of defending the country against terrorists,
> the senior officials said.
>
> The attorney general's surveillance guidelines were imposed on the
> F.B.I. in the 1970's after the death of J. Edgar Hoover and the
> disclosures that the F.B.I. had run a widespread domestic surveillance
> program, called Cointelpro, to monitor antiwar militants, the Ku Klux
> Klan, the Black Panthers and the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.,
> among others, while Mr. Hoover was director.
>
> Since then, the guidelines have defined the F.B.I.'s operational
> conduct in investigations of domestic and overseas groups that operate
> in the United States.
>
> Some officials who oppose the change said the rules had largely kept
> the F.B.I. out of politically motivated investigations, protecting the
> bureau from embarrassment and lawsuits. But others, including senior
> Justice Department officials, said the rules were outmoded and geared
> to obsolete investigative methods and had at times hobbled F.B.I.
> counterterrorism efforts.
>
> Mr. Ashcroft and the F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, favor the
> change, the officials said. Most of the opposition comes from career
> officials at the F.B.I. and the Justice Department.
>
> A Justice Department spokeswoman said today that no final decision had
> been reached on the revised guidelines.
>
> "As part of the attorney general's reorganization," said Susan Dryden,
> the spokeswoman, "we are conducting a comprehensive review of all
> guidelines, policies and procedures. All of these are still under
> review."
>
> An F.B.I. spokesman said the bureau's approach to terrorism was also
> under review.
>
> "Director Mueller's view is that everything should be on the table
> for review," the spokesman, John Collingwood, said. "He is more than
> willing to embrace change when doing so makes us a more effective
> component. A healthy review process doesn't come at the expense of the
> historic protections inherent in our system."
>
> The attorney general is free to revise the guidelines, but Justice
> Department officials said it was unclear how heavily they would be
> revised. There are two sets of guidelines, for domestic and foreign
> groups, and most of the discussion has centered on the largely
> classified rules for investigations of foreign groups.
>
> The relaxation of the guidelines would follow administration measures
> to establish military tribunals to try foreigners accused of
> terrorism; to seek out and question 5,000 immigrants, most of them
> Muslims, who have entered the United States since January 2000; and to
> arrest more than 1,200 people, nearly all of whom are unconnected to
> the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, and hold hundreds of them in jail.
>
> Today, Mr. Ashcroft defended his initiatives in an impassioned speech
> to United States attorneys.
>
> "Our efforts have been deliberate, they've been coordinated, they've
> been carefully crafted to not only protect America but to respect the
> Constitution and the rights enshrined therein," Mr. Ashcroft said.
>
> "Still," he added, "there have been a few voices who have criticized.
> Some have sought to condemn us with faulty facts or without facts
> at all. Others have simply rushed to judgment, almost eagerly
> assuming the worst of their government before they've had a chance to
> understand it at its best."
>
> Under the current surveillance guidelines, the F.B.I. cannot send
> undercover agents to investigate groups that gather at places like
> mosques or churches unless investigators first find probable cause, or
> evidence leading them to believe that someone in the group may have
> broken the law. Full investigations of this sort cannot take place
> without the attorney general's consent.
>
> Since Sept. 11, investigators have said, Islamic militants have
> sometimes met at mosques apparently knowing that the religious
> institutions are usually off limits to F.B.I. surveillance squads.
> Some officials are now saying they need broader authority to conduct
> surveillance of potential terrorists, no matter where they are.
>
> Senior career F.B.I. officials complained that they had not been
> consulted about the proposed change a criticism they have expressed
> about other Bush administration counterterrorism measures. When the
> Justice Department decided to use military tribunals to try accused
> terrorists, and to interview thousands of Muslim men in the United
> States, the officials said they were not consulted.
>
> Justice Department officials noted that Mr. Mueller had endorsed the
> administration's proposals, adding that the complaints were largely
> from older F.B.I. officials who were resistant to change and unwilling
> to take the aggressive steps needed to root out terror in the United
> States. Other officials said the Justice Department had consulted with
> F.B.I. lawyers and some operational managers about the change.
>
> But in a series of recent interviews, several senior career officials
> at the F.B.I. said it would be a serious mistake to weaken the
> guidelines, and they were upset that the department had not clearly
> described the proposed changes.
>
> "People are furious right now very, very angry," one of them said.
> "They just assume they know everything. When you don't consult with
> anybody, it sends the message that you assume you know everything. And
> they don't know everything."
>
> Still, some complaints seem to stem from the F.B.I.'s shifting status
> under Mr. Ashcroft. Weakened by a series of problems that predated the
> Sept. 11 attacks, the F.B.I. has been forced to follow orders from the
> Justice Department a change that many law enforcement experts thought
> was long overdue. In the past, the bureau leadership had far more
> independence and authority to make its own decisions.
>
> Several senior officials are leaving the F.B.I., including Thomas J.
> Pickard, the deputy director. He was the senior official in charge of
> the investigation of the attacks and was among top F.B.I. officials
> who were opposed to another decision of the Bush administration, the
> public announcements of Oct. 12 and Oct. 29 that placed the country on
> the highest state of alert in response to vague but credible threats
> of a possible second terrorist attack. Mr. Pickard is said to have
> been opposed to publicizing threats that were too vague to provide any
> precautionary advice.
>
> Many F.B.I. officials regard the administration's plan to establish
> military tribunals as an extreme step that diminishes the F.B.I.'s
> role because it creates a separate prosecutorial system run by the
> military.
>
> "The only thing I have seen about the tribunals is what I have seen in
> the newspapers," a senior official complained.
>
> Another official said many senior law enforcement officials shared
> his concern about the tribunals. "I believe in the rule of law, and I
> believe if we have a case to make against someone, we should make it
> in a federal courtroom in the United States," he said.
>
> Several senior F.B.I. officials said the tribunal system should be
> reserved for senior Al Qaeda members apprehended by the military in
> Afghanistan or other foreign countries.
>
> Few were involved in deliberations that led to the directive Mr.
> Ashcroft issued this month to interview immigrant men living
> legally in the United States. F.B.I. officials have complained that
> the interview plan was begun before its ramifications were fully
> understood.
>
> "None of this was thought through, a senior official said. "They just
> announced it, and left it to others to figure out how to do it."
>
> The arrests and detentions of more than 1,200 people since Sept. 11
> have also aroused concerns at the F.B.I. Officials noted that the
> investigations had found no conspirators in the United States who
> aided the hijackers in the Sept. 11 attacks and only a handful of
> people who were considered Al Qaeda members.
>
> "This came out of the White House, and Ashcroft's office," a senior
> official said. "There are tons of things coming out of there these
> days where there is absolutely no consultation with the bureau."
>
> Some at the F.B.I. have been openly skeptical about claims that
> some of the 1,200 people arrested were Al Qaeda members and that
> the strategy of making widespread arrests had disrupted or thwarted
> planned attacks.
>
> "It's just not the case," an official said. "We have 10 or 12 people
> we think are Al Qaeda people, and that's it. And for some of them,
> it's based only on conjecture and suspicion."




From analwhores at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec  4 17:12:20 2001
From: analwhores at yahoo.co.uk (analwhores at yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:12:20
Subject: Hardcore Anal Bitches Take It Hard!
Message-ID: <16.400572.74711@yahoo.co.uk>

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From anon at remailer.ukf.net  Tue Dec  4 09:34:09 2001
From: anon at remailer.ukf.net (Anonymous)
Date: 4 Dec 2001 17:34:09 -0000
Subject: [Reformatted] Reichstag Anthrax: not just greenpeace suggesting
  it..
References: <3C0BA9A9.8D97AA8@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <2B3AJTXY37229.7320486111@anonymous>


hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes:

> excerpt from http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/03/national/03POWD.html
>
> The preliminary analysis of the powder shows that it has the same
> extraordinarily high concentration of deadly spores as the anthrax
> produced in the American weapons program. While it is still possible
> that the anthrax could have a foreign source, the concentration
> is higher than any stock publicly known to be produced by other
> governments.
>
> The similarity to the levels achieved by the United States military
> lends support to the idea that someone with ties to the old program
> may be behind the attacks that have killed five people. The Federal
> Bureau of Investigation recently expanded its investigation of anthrax
> suspects to include government and contractor laboratories as a
> possible source of the deadly powder itself, or of knowledge of how to
> make it.




From MoSecrets2Success at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  4 14:43:31 2001
From: MoSecrets2Success at hotmail.com (The Money Life)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:43:31 -0500
Subject: Make 5,000 A Week, Get FREE Information
Message-ID: <20011204224331.UPMV6523.imf18bis.bellsouth.net@[66.156.210.77]>

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From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 07:48:33 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:48:33 +0200
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
  <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>
  <20011204191450.G29550@tigerteam.net>
Message-ID: <0efd01c17cdb$20af83a0$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "Fyodor" 

> Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear understanding
> what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely
> ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare
> to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep
> involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign
> corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
> of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) of
> all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
> russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
> post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
> environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.

I understand that, but I thought having *incompetent* corrupt people is
better than having *competent* ones! Who said "let's be happy that we don't
have all the government that we're paying for" (or something like that)? The
flaw here is the idea that the government COULD be a good thing, provided
that the governors are competent. I disagree with that.

> > is? Correct! More socialism! Why the heck would I do anything with my
> > resources, if almost all the revenue from it would be divided among the
> > vodka-drinking idiots of the country? (Well, I know, the new man and
stuff.)
>
> not all are vodka drinking idiots. but your statement makes sense. :-)

I'm not saying that all russians are such. (Not that I love them, being from
an ex-satellite...) Only that a significant number are (just like a
significant number of Americans are "couch potatoes"), and having to share
my earnings with them is a big disincentive.

> What's worse, is that it's been observed in some country side areas,
> when one guy is managing to do good on his land, the others get jealous
> or something, and his house could get burnt eventually with no reason..
> happened a few times a few years ago.

Yep. As Ian Clarke (the initiator of Freenet) said, Americans look at the
big mansion on the hill and say "one day I'll have one of those", while
Irish (or Romanians, or Russians...) say "one day we'll burn that
sonofabitch".

> Come on. Keep in mind that this statement was written by 'a party of
> pensioners'. Which means by people in age of 50 and above with strong
> socialist background. They are trying to find a solution to the problem,
> the only problem here, is that they still apply old patterns to it.

That's what I was objecting to :) The solution is obvious: capitalism. The
real one, not the fascist version.

> > Of course, who cares about the fact that Russia is just a small part of
the
> > Union?
>
> Union? Which Union? I doubt russia is welcomed to European Union (update
> me if I am wrong) and there's no former Soviet Union either. More over
> the Union of Idependent Countries, seems to be getting gone piece by
> piece, at least now you need to proper visa if you want to visit Russia
> from one of the 'former' republics.

Really? I didn't know that. Anyway, being old people and so on, I am sure
they are nostalgic about the One Big Union.

> whatever.. hope my comments are helpful ;-)

Well, at least there's two of us 

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 22:57:48 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 17:57:48 +1100
Subject: in praise of gold, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204175248.009fe460@pop.useoz.com>


"It doesn't take a judgment by society at large to realize that some
people really are better off alone instead of inflicting their destructive
fucked-up personality on others (psychotics, alcoholics, etc)."

What about silly little girls inflicting their e-gold (!) opinions.

"if more people refused to cave in to societal pressures and thought about
what they really wanted to do with their lives (instead of blindly falling into
the "spouse, family, 9 to 5 job" trap out of conformism and a fear of the
unknown) it would be a great thing."

Whoopdy doo! Fergedabout ask abbie! Ask Faustine!...only dont ask if 
she/he/its an agent.

Previously posted,she may be what she claims,after aimee,though...

"...Someone once remarked that the most unimaginitive, laziest Harvard
graduate students at the bottom of their class tend to end up at the IMF
and UN. Sort of sinkholes of mediocrity. Oh well! ~Faustine."

Luckily we now have 'open source' AP to take out the ones that get to be
president.Did you see my 2 previous post F?

1) Faustine wrote...
."..good old boring long-faced church-every-Sunday solid-citizen Robert P.
Hanssen. If his FBI colleagues had been asked to rate him by your above
criteria, he probably would have been in the high 200s all across the
board. And maybe deservedly so. But since those factors weren't in any way,
shape, or form relevant to the fact that he was also the kind of person who
could sell out his country for the sheer pleasure of the game of it, he got
away with murder for years until he got careless and his shitty tradecraft
finally caught up with him."

His tradecraft was rather good I thought,especially in not trusting his
handlers with direct contact.Possibly he was done in by sex addiction
common to many repressed septic tanks(yanks) W.Reichs,mass psychology of
facism describes syndrome.Also wanted on some level to get caught,much like
Ted special K.(and USAma bin laden?)
Did he really get away with murder? Feh.Aldrich ames did and his rep
survived polygraphs so reputations are bollocks unless panocoptincons and
regular stings/tests are done.Hanssen didnt tell the russkies anything they
couldnt have worked out them selves.

No response? Trawling for bigger game? pot bellied,aging brilliant thorns
in the side of your country? Then...'In praise of gold:

"...nothing more than a cop-out. So it seems to me, at any rate. ~Faustine. "

Like you last week (agent ?) faustine (cop-in?) Silence speaks volumes in
this house.

Im calling you out as a patriotic,extremely dim little bitch at the very
least,Well?

END reprints 'smart as whip 'F missed in the wash.

(changed slightly dim to the above)Do you take messages for agent 
farr,agent faustine,Ive got a tip for her.




From mail at teleseminarsrus.com  Tue Dec  4 15:01:20 2001
From: mail at teleseminarsrus.com (TeleseminarsRus)
Date: 4 Dec 2001 18:01:20 -0500
Subject: We Are Calling It The Who Let The Calls Out, Dont Be Left On The Sidelines, Make Money Now Intern
Message-ID: <7760446668@mail.1shoppingcart.com>


**TeleSeminarsrus Presents The First Ever InternetSeminar, Featuring 
David 'Covered Call King' Skidmore**

	You enjoyed him for the TeleSeminar and you wanted more, well we talked 
him into doing an hour long InternetSeminar On Saturday Morning, December 8th.

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2.  Stock Analysis  
3.  Call and Premium Analysis
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To Sign up call 1-888-870-9754 or fax this form to 413-294-4532.  First come, 
first serve basis.

The cost is $499.    Register By December 6th, 2001 and get this special price 
$199. Members receive this Web-Conference as part of their membership 
benefits.  Contact us to see how you can become a member. 



If you want to be removed from our mailing list make sure you follow the 
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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec  3 23:20:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 18:20:10 +1100
Subject: 'software error' 37,000 to cato.a "libertarian" institute.,
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204181331.00a43160@pop.useoz.com>


"Ok, someone PLEASE enlighten me... WHAT on Earth is the problem here? They
paid TOO MUCH in taxes, so they have to pay a fine???

Mark"
END.

The problem for me is the false advertising on this list RE:Libertarianism.

Its the cypherPUNKS list NOT the cyphershills list.




From email at laugh5.com  Tue Dec  4 05:31:25 2001
From: email at laugh5.com (Laugh5.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 19:01:25 +0530
Subject: Laugh5.com
Message-ID: <20011204235205.CF44213D92@mail.laugh5.com>

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From fygrave at tigerteam.net  Tue Dec  4 04:14:50 2001
From: fygrave at tigerteam.net (Fyodor)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:14:50 +0700
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
In-Reply-To: <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>; from
  mdpopescu@yahoo.com on Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 10:52:21AM +0200
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
  <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: <20011204191450.G29550@tigerteam.net>


> < government to exist.>>
> 
> Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is incompetent -
> but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the more
> chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs.
> 

Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear understanding
what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely
ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare
to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep
involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign
corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) of
all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.

> is? Correct! More socialism! Why the heck would I do anything with my
> resources, if almost all the revenue from it would be divided among the
> vodka-drinking idiots of the country? (Well, I know, the new man and stuff.)

not all are vodka drinking idiots. but your statement makes sense. :-)
What's worse, is that it's been observed in some country side areas,
when one guy is managing to do good on his land, the others get jealous
or something, and his house could get burnt eventually with no reason..
happened a few times a few years ago.

> allow that! There are CHILDREN there! (There is a solution to this too -
> socialism is wonderful! We'll confiscate their land, vilify them for not

Come on. Keep in mind that this statement was written by 'a party of
pensioners'. Which means by people in age of 50 and above with strong
socialist background. They are trying to find a solution to the problem,
the only problem here, is that they still apply old patterns to it.

> Of course, who cares about the fact that Russia is just a small part of the
> Union?

Union? Which Union? I doubt russia is welcomed to European Union (update
me if I am wrong) and there's no former Soviet Union either. More over
the Union of Idependent Countries, seems to be getting gone piece by
piece, at least now you need to proper visa if you want to visit Russia
from one of the 'former' republics.

> income, but the state's, to be used as it sees fit. If I won't, then you'll
> see a LOT of revenue going abroad - Russian electronics (to give just one
> example) might be solid, but they're horrible when it comes to quality and
> design.

Quality is usually good. ;-) (you can use a pocket radio to hitch nails
f.e. ;-)) Design is scarey, but that's a postsequence of post-socialism
way of working. Noone cares if something looks good as long as it is
practical ;-)

[snip snip]
whatever.. hope my comments are helpful ;-) 
-- 
http://www.notlsd.net
PGP fingerprint = 56DD 1511 DDDA 56D7 99C7  B288 5CE5 A713 0969 A4D1




From grocha at neutraldomain.org  Tue Dec  4 20:05:21 2001
From: grocha at neutraldomain.org (Gabriel Rocha)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:05:21 -0800
Subject: Einstein.ssz.com down hard...
In-Reply-To: ;
  from measl@mfn.org on Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 09:36:27PM -0600
References: 
Message-ID: <20011204200521.A57012@neutraldomain.org>


		On Tue, Dec 04, at 09:36PM, measl at mfn.org wrote:
| 18  DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.101)  121 ms
| DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105)  115 ms DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net
| (205.238.159.101)  113 ms
| 19  * * DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105)  104 ms !H
| 20  DS3-R6-1b-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.93)  79 ms !H *
| DS3-R6-1a-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.77)  92 ms !H

ssz may entirely be up, but routers before them seem pretty fucked
up.




From measl at mfn.org  Tue Dec  4 18:08:11 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:08:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: eCash reported mortally wounded...
Message-ID: 



Reposted as the first one bounced "no route to host" :

http://fuckedcompany.com/

>Cashed
 Rumor has it eCash.net will be closing down any day now... aquisition fell
 through, around 40 people soon-to-be jobless.
 When: 12/4/2001
 Company: eCash.net
 Severity: 100 - new hall of fame inductee!



-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From vh1_newsletters at vh1.com  Mon Dec  3 17:26:03 2001
From: vh1_newsletters at vh1.com (VH1.com)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 20:26:03 +1900
Subject: VH1 Save the Music Holiday Auction
Message-ID: <200112050121.fB51LUU10337@mail1.lga2.mtvn.com>

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From debt_collectors at btamail.net.cn  Tue Dec  4 20:46:35 2001
From: debt_collectors at btamail.net.cn (Debt Collectors)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:46:35
Subject: Collect Your Money! Time:8:46:35 PM
Message-ID: <200112050129.JAA0000001319@ISserver.mei>


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Indicate the best time to telephone and any necessary addresses and 
telephone/fax numbers in the text of your reply.

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at (212) 213-3000 Ext 1425.

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P.S. -- If you are not in need of our services at this time, please retain this 
message for future use or past it on to a friend. 




From email at mediaspan.rsc03.com  Tue Dec  4 21:04:54 2001
From: email at mediaspan.rsc03.com (CD Nut Music and Movie Store)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:04:54 -0800
Subject: Win hundreds of prizes from your favorite movies!!!
Message-ID: <200112050505.VAA19041@toad.com>

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From measl at mfn.org  Tue Dec  4 19:36:27 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:36:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Einstein.ssz.com down hard...
Message-ID: 


Here's the current network traceroute to einstein.ssz.com: 
 1  64.71.128.30 (64.71.128.30)  2 ms  2 ms  2 ms
 2  gige-g0-0.gsr12008.pao.he.net (216.218.130.7)  2 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 3  209.213.211.165 (209.213.211.165)  3 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 4  rif15.pal001bd01.yipes.com (66.54.194.117)  3 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 5  ge-0-0-0.pal001jp01.yipes.com (209.50.34.184)  201 ms  3 ms  3 ms
 6  500.Gig2-0.GW4.PAO1.ALTER.NET (157.130.214.197)  7 ms  7 ms  7 ms
 7  124.ATM3-0.XR1.PAO1.ALTER.NET (146.188.148.90)  6 ms  6 ms  43 ms
 8  0.so-0-0-0.XL1.PAO1.ALTER.NET (152.63.54.73)  7 ms  7 ms  7 ms
 9  0.so-3-0-0.TL1.SAC1.ALTER.NET (152.63.53.250)  8 ms  8 ms  7 ms
10  0.so-7-0-0.TL1.DFW9.ALTER.NET (152.63.10.13)  83 ms  46 ms  46 ms
11  0.so-7-0-0.XL1.DFW9.ALTER.NET (152.63.0.194)  47 ms  46 ms  49 ms
12  0.so-4-0-0.XR1.DFW9.ALTER.NET (152.63.101.254)  46 ms  46 ms  47 ms
13  185.ATM7-0.XR1.DFW4.ALTER.NET (152.63.96.145)  47 ms  47 ms  46 ms
14  195.ATM4-0.GW2.NOL1.ALTER.NET (152.63.96.113)  65 ms  65 ms  65 ms
15  aperianT3tx-gw.customer.alter.net (157.130.146.154)  78 ms  76 ms  78 ms
16  router6.realtime.net (204.181.160.33)  79 ms  80 ms  79 ms
17  router6.realtime.net (204.181.160.33)  80 ms  80 ms  79 ms
18  DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.101)  121 ms
DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105)  115 ms DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net
(205.238.159.101)  113 ms
19  * * DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105)  104 ms !H
20  DS3-R6-1b-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.93)  79 ms !H *
DS3-R6-1a-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.77)  92 ms !H


Result for einstein.ssz.com;   modeset: {AS-Query , ICMP-Query ,
SOA-Owner-Query }: 
traceroute.exe to einstein.ssz.com (204.96.2.99), 30 hops max, 38 byte
packets
 1  router.redhat.com (199.183.24.225) [AS2551] noc at redhat.com  59.027 ms
77.755 ms  69.665 ms
 2  Loopback0.GW3.RDU1.ALTER.NET (137.39.5.13) [AS701]
hostmaster at uunet.UU.NET  59.605 ms  117.787 ms  59.462 ms
 3  178.ATM2-0.XR2.DCA1.ALTER.NET (146.188.162.70) [AS702] hostmaster at uu.net
69.686 ms  58.206 ms  59.635 ms
 4  294.at-1-1-0.XR2.DCA6.ALTER.NET (152.63.33.34) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
109.485 ms  137.772 ms  79.653 ms
 5  0.so-1-3-0.XL2.DCA6.ALTER.NET (152.63.35.118) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
79.520 ms  107.823 ms  59.530 ms
 6  152.63.0.234 (152.63.0.234) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net  69.654 ms  109.072
ms  69.673 ms
 7  0.so-6-0-0.TL2.HOU7.ALTER.NET (152.63.39.182) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
69.615 ms  58.851 ms  79.739 ms
 8  0.so-6-1-0.XL2.HOU7.ALTER.NET (152.63.101.194) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
89.632 ms  88.875 ms  59.782 ms
 9  O.so-4-0-0.XR2.HOU7.ALTER.NET (152.63.102.14) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
69.723 ms  58.917 ms  59.742 ms
10  192.ATM7-0.GW2.AUS1.ALTER.NET (152.63.100.69) [AS701] hostmaster at uu.net
89.690 ms  128.910 ms  119.693 ms
11  msiholding-gw.customer.alter.net (157.130.142.210) [AS701]
hostmaster at uu.net  139.646 ms  79.649 ms  119.775 ms
12  router6.realtime.net (204.181.160.33) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com  69.690
ms  70.628 ms  71.939 ms
13  router6.realtime.net (204.181.160.33) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com  64.000
ms  64.076 ms  78.425 ms
14  DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com
83.948 ms DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.101) [AS2933]
hostmaster at bga.com  91.603 ms DS3-R6-1b-n.realtime.net
(205.238.159.93) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com  90.330 ms
15  DS3-R6-1d-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.105) [AS2933] hostmaster at bga.com
103.427 ms !H DS3-R6-1e-n.realtime.net (205.238.159.101) [AS2933]
hostmaster at bga.com  90.685 ms !H *



-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec  4 21:46:01 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 21:46:01 -0800
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205073521.00a226b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011204214601.00808a20@pop.sprynet.com>


At 07:58 AM 12/5/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>"Non libertarian anarchy?"
>

Non-lib anarchy is gang rule.  Libs support a minimal
govt to protect everyones' rights.




From morlockelloi at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  4 21:50:18 2001
From: morlockelloi at yahoo.com (Morlock Elloi)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:50:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: in praise of gold
In-Reply-To: <200112041957.OAA14935@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <20011205055018.71937.qmail@web13201.mail.yahoo.com>


> Compare the sum total of misery in this world to the sum total of happiness
and
> get back to me. Read some Schopenhauer and early Nietzsche, you'd probably
find 
> a lot to agree with too.

What happiness ? Have you ever seen anyone happy (on this list) ?

Nietzsche admitted that he wrote the stuff just to attract chics. It didn't
work.

> No, not at all. If you prefer spending time with psychotics and alcoholics,
go

I don't prefer, but they won't go away. And they call me psychotic.

> >You are a bigot.
> 
> Care to broaden that out to "misanthrope"? 
> You bet. ;)

No, I meant a logical bigot.


=====
end
(of original message)

Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows:
Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec  4 22:43:49 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:43:49 -0800
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205073521.00a226b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0D51A5.22524.6312C2@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald (parodying muddle headed anarcho socialists)
> : : 	"I am really opposed to concentrated authority, 
> : : 	therefore when I and people like me have all 
> : : 	the necessary power to do all the good we
> : : 	intend to do to those selfish ignorant
> : : 	ungrateful masses, it will be the opposite of
> : : 	concentrated authority."

On 5 Dec 2001, at 7:58, mattd wrote:
> I AM really opposed to concentrated authority!

I am sure you are. but if you intend socialism you intend 
highly concentrated authority.

As I repeatedly said elsewhere:

Without property rights in the means of production to 
separate one man's plan from another man's plan, there can 
only be one plan, one plan for everything, one plan for 
everyone, one plan that all must obey. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Isj1y9aDNlFy3CjcnBmWK8i3cUGIiRrPC+8jZacL
     4pYP/LfcZpp2ewlu6qIihJYabKZKnqPMNj+eWynRz




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Tue Dec  4 23:46:41 2001
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue,  4 Dec 2001 23:46:41 -0800
Subject: fuel injected firearm
Message-ID: <200112050746.fB57kfN77789@mailserver2b.hushmail.com>


>2. Liquid propellant guns (search on that term) are well
>developed for artillary, but I don't know of any light 
>weapons which use this. LPGs are kind of neat in 
>howitzer type applications because (1) A tank of
>propellant & a rack of projectiles takes less space
>than cased solid propellant shells, so you can carry
>more ammo, and (2) you can vary the propellant
>from shot to shot based on emergent conditions. One
>neat hack is 'time on target' in which a series of rounds
>are fired in quick succession, at different elevations and
>propellant load so they all arrive at the target simultaneously.
>(the LPG liquid propellant does not need an added oxidizer).
>
>Peter Trei

Indeed.  See http://yarchive.net/mil/liquid_propellant.html
My ideas were more along the mono-propellent direction using hydrogen peroxide or N-Propyl Nitrate decomposed on a silver/nickel catalyst bed.




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Tue Dec  4 21:13:45 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 00:13:45 -0500
Subject: Comrades.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205083914.00a25130@pop.useoz.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205083914.00a25130@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <20011205001345.A10899@ils.unc.edu>


Two words:  Hubble telescope.


On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:41:41AM +1100, mattd wrote:
> 
> Comrades who may have any experience with this or constructive suggestions,
> thoughts or advise, please feel free to contact us direct or respond on
> this list and we will forward.
> 
> Thanks and solidarity,
> NY-NJ Workers Solidarity Alliance
> wsany at hotmail.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Dear Surveillance Camera Players: My name is Fred B., I am the
> President of a Local Union of the American Flint Glass Workers
> Union We are in the formidable stages of  a grievance process which is
> likely to end at an arbitration hearing, concerning our company installing
> Surveillance Equipment.
> 
> Is there anything you could do or recommend for us that would
> be a show of not only Disgust but also Defiance?
> 
> Yours' In Solidarity
> Fred
> Im not smart so Ill handball it to youse.mattd.Help please,thank you.




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Dec  5 04:44:54 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 06:44:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: ssz switchover test
Message-ID: 


testing lne: ssz appears down hard :-(

1235

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Wed Dec  5 03:47:09 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 06:47:09 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB500000147A@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Wed Dec  5 04:49:08 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:49:08 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB5000001485@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec  4 12:58:58 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 07:58:58 +1100
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205073521.00a226b0@pop.useoz.com>


"Non libertarian anarchy?"

Libertarian socialism,anarchy.anarcho-sydicalism,green anarchy,eko Anarki 
yes.(Libertarian anarchy?: Redundant.)

"The trouble is that a lot of socialists call themselves
anarchists either as a simple cynical lie:
(parody of standard commie liar)
: : "This time the state really will wither away.
: : Trust us. We are different. Once we have total
: : power over you and yours you will love it."

Yes,so? They are quite easy to expose and I pursue chomsky,Klein and others 
to pin them down.I oppose the state above all.The biggest most 
dangerous(amerdika) first.All anarchists should do the same IMHO.

: "I am really opposed to concentrated authority,
: : therefore when I and people like me have all the
: : necessary power to do all the good we intend to
: : do to those selfish ignorant ungrateful masses,
: : it will be the opposite of concentrated
: : authority."

I AM really opposed to concentrated authority! Thats why Im an anarchist 
and NOT a 'libertarian' I dont seek 'necessary power' for anything except 
operation soft drill.I have great faith in the spontaneous altruistic 
enlightened grateful masses to overthrow the last empire.You sound a little 
bitter and twisted on this subject james,are you OK?




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec  5 08:07:09 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:07:09 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Untraceable money now more than ever!
Message-ID: <22C24828-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>


[Retransmission. Due to periodic problems with lne.com, I started
sending my messages to ssz.com a few days ago. Alas, ssz.com has had an
outage. Hence these retransmissions. Sorry for any dupes.]

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Tim May 
> Date: Tue Dec 04, 2001  08:50:24 AM US/Pacific
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Untraceable money now more than ever!
>
> Or, "Why We Fight."
>
> Just thought I'd pass along this gem I found in one of the newsgroups.
> If true, it shows the unlawful/extralegal reach of government into the
> pockets of persons not tried, not convicted, not even charged, not even
> plausibly guilty of anything.
>
> This guy is having his OWN MONEY blocked, probed, and frozen. No
> charges, no court, just done by forces unseen to him.
>
> Editorial comment: The Founders would likely be stunned to see
> bureaucrats in a distant city able to reach in and essentially grab the
> money of a person without any due process, without fines or
> court-ordered seizures, just on the say-so of a bureaucrat. This guy
> below _wrote_ about it, so there are probably hundreds more just like
> him who choose not to further anger Big Brother by writing angry
> letters.
>
> Me, I'd be so angry I'd probably be strapping on the plastic
> explosives....
>
> Read it and stoke your righteous anger:
>
> --begin article--
> This was in today's Washington Post.  Check it out at
> www.washingtonpost.com
>
> =============== Letters to the Post ==
> Whose Sacrifice?
>
> Monday, December 3, 2001; Page A20
>
> American citizens are willing to sacrifice civil liberties in the fight
> against terrorism [front page, Nov. 29], but which Americans are doing
> the sacrificing?
>
> Since Sept. 11 the FBI has interviewed me at work and at home because
> my name is similar not to that of one of the hijackers, but to an
> individual arrested with suspected links to the terrorists.
>
> The FBI has contacted my broker, my neighbors and my friends to learn
> more about me. I was purchasing an apartment, but when I needed to give
> my down payment at closing I was informed by my bank that my accounts
> were frozen. No one informed me nor could anyone help me resolve the
> problem. Only an angry settlement attorney was able to unfreeze the
> funds.
>
> A month passed, and all seemed normal. Then I found out again that I
> did not have access to transfer funds from my accounts without
> government approval.
>
> I am a federal employee. I have not been charged with a crime. I do not
> support terrorism, and I was willing to help the law enforcement
> agencies. It was my duty as an American to answer all the questions
> asked of me.
>
> But as time goes by and I have to get "clearance" every time I want to
> make a bank transfer, I feel victimized. Every time I travel and receive
> the extra security checks because of my name it makes me trust my
> government less. What scares me even more is that I am an American
> citizen, and that is why I am not in jail. If I were not a citizen I
> could be one of the hundreds of detainees, or I could be in sitting in
> front of a secret military court only because the crime I am guilty of
> is that my name is Ali Ayub and not Joe Smith.
>
> ALI AYUB
>
> Arlington
>
>  7 2001 The Washington Post Company
>
> --end article--
>
>
>
> --Tim May
> "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
> hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
> around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet
--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec  5 08:07:47 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:07:47 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Reputation capital
Message-ID: <392A28D4-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>


[Retransmission. Due to periodic problems with lne.com, I started 
sending my messages to ssz.com a few days ago. Alas, ssz.com has had an 
outage. Hence these retransmissions. Sorry for any dupes.]


Begin forwarded message:

> From: Tim May 
> Date: Tue Dec 04, 2001  08:56:01 AM US/Pacific
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Reputation capital
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 05:28 AM, Marcel Popescu wrote:
>
>> I think all this stuff about reputations is being solved pretty neatly 
>> by
>> the credit bureaus... up to getting scalars on people / companies.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> This is naive. Credit bureaus handle only a particular class of 
> reputations, certain types of credit-worthiness, and then with 
> well-documented deep flaws:
>
> -- regulation by government
>
> -- "Fair Credit Reporting Act" forbids them from "remembering" certain 
> classes of defaults and welshings
>
> -- lack of competition (the Three use the same precise standards)
>
>
> If you are rejoining the discussions after a long absence, you need to 
> get up to speed.
>
>
>
>
> --Tim May
> "The Constitution is a radical document...it is the job of the 
> government to rein in people's rights." --President William J. Clinton
>
>
--Tim May
"That government is best which governs not at all." --Henry David Thoreau




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Dec  5 08:08:16 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:08:16 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
Message-ID: <4A831952-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>


[Retransmission. Due to periodic problems with lne.com, I started 
sending my messages to ssz.com a few days ago. Alas, ssz.com has had an 
outage. Hence these retransmissions. Sorry for any dupes.]


Begin forwarded message:

> From: Tim May 
> Date: Tue Dec 04, 2001  09:25:34 AM US/Pacific
> To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: Re: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 04:14 AM, Fyodor wrote:
>
>>> <>> talentless
>>> government to exist.>>
>>>
>>> Here we go again! I mean, I'm sure the Russian government is 
>>> incompetent -
>>> but to decry that? Pray for more! The more incompetent they are, the 
>>> more
>>> chances you have of developing an economy behind their backs.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong. Having russian background I guess I have more clear 
>> understanding
>> what these guys are trying to say: The government is definetely
>> ineffective in protecting its citizen, providing the social wealthfare
>> to them and such, but on the other hand the government corruption, deep
>> involvement with crimilal circles and udertable deals with big foreign
>> corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
>> of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any 
>> number) of
>> all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
>> russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
>> post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
>> environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.
>
> This matches everything I have seen about Russia. It simply is 
> implausible that "corruption and inefficiency means more opportunities 
> for economies behind their backs" (to summarize the argument).
>
> What Russia shows is that privatizing a state-run economy is difficult 
> indeed. Gazprom, the big gas and energy company, is a case in point. 
> There was no "free market" to acquire the resources of this 
> "privatized" company: the thugs and apparatchniks (sp?) grabbed the 
> company. And they are willing to use former KGB, GRU, and Spetsnaz 
> killers to enforce their monopoly.
>
> What about non-heavy industry? Television, for example? Read about the 
> ongoing shutdown of Moscow independent stations and networks, on flimsy 
> grounds having the _language_ of capitalism (stuff about "loan 
> default") but actually being just part of the thugocracy approach. (The 
> U.S. is not blameless here. Our own FCC applies similar rules sometimes 
> to block stations. And woe unto any Islamic broadcaster, where the new 
> language is that the First Amendment does not apply to "hate speech" or 
> "speech insulting to other religions." At this rate, the long-awaited 
> convergence of Russia and America is not far off.)
>
> Russia as a haven for Havenco? For digital money? For e-commerce?
>
> Laughable.
>
> --Tim May
>>
> --Tim May
> "If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third 
> hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're 
> around." --attribution uncertain, possibly Gunner, on Usenet
>
>
--Tim May
"How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things 
have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to 
make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" 
--Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Dec  5 08:29:08 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:29:08 -0800
Subject: ssz switchover test
In-Reply-To: ;
  from measl@mfn.org on Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:44:54AM -0600
References: 
Message-ID: <20011205082908.A16874@slack.lne.com>


On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:44:54AM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> testing lne: ssz appears down hard :-(

Mail to ssz has been backed up at lne since midnight tuesday.

The list of CDRs is at: http://www.lne.com/cpunk/


Eric




From ericm at lne.com  Wed Dec  5 08:36:33 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:36:33 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Reputation capital
In-Reply-To: <392A28D4-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>; from
  tcmay@got.net on Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:07:47AM -0800
References: <392A28D4-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <20011205083633.B16874@slack.lne.com>


On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:07:47AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
> [Retransmission. Due to periodic problems with lne.com, I started 
> sending my messages to ssz.com a few days ago. Alas, ssz.com has had an 
> outage. Hence these retransmissions. Sorry for any dupes.]


The problems lne was having have been fixed.  My MX host had an extra '.'
in their MailerHosts table, so mail to anything at lne.com that got MXd
to them was being rejected with 'User unknown'.

Eric




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec  4 13:41:41 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 08:41:41 +1100
Subject: Comrades.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205083914.00a25130@pop.useoz.com>


Comrades who may have any experience with this or constructive suggestions,
thoughts or advise, please feel free to contact us direct or respond on
this list and we will forward.

Thanks and solidarity,
NY-NJ Workers Solidarity Alliance
wsany at hotmail.com
-------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Surveillance Camera Players: My name is Fred B., I am the
President of a Local Union of the American Flint Glass Workers
Union We are in the formidable stages of  a grievance process which is
likely to end at an arbitration hearing, concerning our company installing
Surveillance Equipment.

Is there anything you could do or recommend for us that would
be a show of not only Disgust but also Defiance?

Yours' In Solidarity
Fred
Im not smart so Ill handball it to youse.mattd.Help please,thank you.




From unamaxwell at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  5 00:45:44 2001
From: unamaxwell at hotmail.com (unamaxwell at hotmail.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:45:44 +0000
Subject: How To Greatly Increase Your Calling Area ...                                    [ajgrz]
Message-ID: 

http://pavilion/pgm/adcopy/booster.html
Increase your cell phone
reception for just $14.99
Click Here

We will increase your reception dramatically or your money back!
Enhance your cell phone, pager, or two way radio's signal for better reception in large
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static, missed calls, dropped calls, etc. This easy-to-install internal antenna is like
adding 4 feet worth of antenna to your phone! this signal booster will:

reduce static
provide clarity
stabilize reception
work on any phone
work on any system

Easy to Install
Just slip in behind battery!

Get a FREE anti-radiation shield!

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30
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Address Removal Instructions
This advertisement provides all recipients
with a no-cost method to permanently remove thier e-mail address from future mailings. To
permanently remove your address 
click here to send your request.


-------------- next part --------------
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From "Powerful Cell Phone Accessory" at toad.com  Wed Dec  5 01:12:18 2001
From: "Powerful Cell Phone Accessory" at toad.com ("Powerful Cell Phone Accessory" at toad.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:12:18 +0000
Subject: How To Greatly Increase Your Calling Area ...                                    [otrgg]
Message-ID: 

http://pavilion/pgm/adcopy/booster.html
Increase your cell phone
reception for just $14.99
Click Here

We will increase your reception dramatically or your money back!
Enhance your cell phone, pager, or two way radio's signal for better reception in large
buildings, tunnels, elevators, and many other places where the signal may get weak causing
static, missed calls, dropped calls, etc. This easy-to-install internal antenna is like
adding 4 feet worth of antenna to your phone! this signal booster will:

reduce static
provide clarity
stabilize reception
work on any phone
work on any system

Easy to Install
Just slip in behind battery!

Get a FREE anti-radiation shield!

Click Here

30
Day Money Back Guarantee!

Address Removal Instructions
This advertisement provides all recipients
with a no-cost method to permanently remove thier e-mail address from future mailings. To
permanently remove your address 
click here to send your request.




**********************************************************************
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intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

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From footwear at kingfootwear.com  Tue Dec  4 17:58:37 2001
From: footwear at kingfootwear.com (footwear)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:58:37 +0800
Subject: footwear
Message-ID: <10fd01c17d39$db10be40$f733fea9@qz.fj.cn>

Dear Sirs,

We learned from internet that you would like to import footwear products. We can supply you all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We are a shoe factory in CHINA and we manufacture all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We welcome you visit our web site http://www.kingfootwear.com for pictures of our products. 
 
And if interested in any models, please let us know the article numbers and the quantity that you will order and we will offer you a most competitive price accordingly. 

Best Regards

Ruth Lin

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From footwear at kingfootwear.com  Tue Dec  4 17:59:08 2001
From: footwear at kingfootwear.com (footwear)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:59:08 +0800
Subject: footwear
Message-ID: <110601c17d39$dbfa33e0$f733fea9@qz.fj.cn>

Dear Sirs,

We learned from internet that you would like to import footwear products. We can supply you all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We are a shoe factory in CHINA and we manufacture all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We welcome you visit our web site http://www.kingfootwear.com for pictures of our products. 
 
And if interested in any models, please let us know the article numbers and the quantity that you will order and we will offer you a most competitive price accordingly. 

Best Regards

Ruth Lin

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From footwear at kingfootwear.com  Tue Dec  4 17:59:30 2001
From: footwear at kingfootwear.com (footwear)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:59:30 +0800
Subject: footwear
Message-ID: <110801c17d39$dc78d9c0$f733fea9@qz.fj.cn>

Dear Sirs,

We learned from internet that you would like to import footwear products. We can supply you all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We are a shoe factory in CHINA and we manufacture all kinds of sport shoes, soccer shoes & flying shoes. We welcome you visit our web site http://www.kingfootwear.com for pictures of our products. 
 
And if interested in any models, please let us know the article numbers and the quantity that you will order and we will offer you a most competitive price accordingly. 

Best Regards

Ruth Lin

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From alqaeda at hq.org  Wed Dec  5 10:02:23 2001
From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 10:02:23 -0800
Subject: Bad Opsec: Afghan hills, atavan for geologists
Message-ID: <3C0E612F.A66B0369@hq.org>


excerpts from
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-120501shroder.story
about the importance of operational security

Later CNN gave Shroder an enhanced copy of the complete tape. It
 revealed that the camera operator did not turn off the camera while he
 removed it from the tripod. As he tilted the camera up, the outline of
 the top of the ravine was caught on two frames.

Armed with this new information, Shroder was able to place Bin Laden
in a province in the south.

.......
"They told me, 'You guys have made yourselves a little too vulnerable,'
" he said. Now, the nondescript room Shroder and his team use to
assemble and analyze maps of Afghanistan has been secured: digital
locks and 24-hour audio and video surveillance. "I'm now a worldwide
target."




From yourdailydeal at lists.em5000.com  Wed Dec  5 10:24:42 2001
From: yourdailydeal at lists.em5000.com (yourdailydeal)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:24:42 PST
Subject: Someone wants to share the Holidays!
Message-ID: <5120100011$100688083616512$10$0@exploder5.em5000.com>

Share this Season with someone new!
Just 3 easy steps to meeting and dating that person you have always dreamed of.
Take your new Soulmate on a virtual date to exotic locations and share the holiday fun.
http://www.neodates.com/tracker.php?Refer=elist161616&Id=110 Click here to go to NeoDates.com and join the fun!
-- 

To unsubscribe go to 
http://www.em5000.com/unsub.php?client=yourdailydeal&email=cypherpunks at toad.com&listname=yourdailydeal&msgid=5120100011
or to 
http://www.em5000.com/unsub.php?client=yourdailydeal&listname=yourdailydeal&msgid=5120100011
and enter your email address (cypherpunks at toad.com) 


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From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Wed Dec  5 08:11:05 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:11:05 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB50000014DC@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec  4 16:25:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:25:25 +1100
Subject: Say goodbye to joshua
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205111618.009f36c0@pop.useoz.com>


Agent gordon,how olds your boy now? He will be a teenager one day and may 
call out his old man ala arbusto and herb.
It might be for something petty but it might also be because his dad locked 
up a guy for 10 years instead of getting an AVO (restraining order) on him.
He may also be a perfect son.(Like charles texas tower.)Id like to write to 
him with your permission.I have something to show him about you.




From alqaeda at hq.org  Wed Dec  5 11:33:17 2001
From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 11:33:17 -0800
Subject: Feds try to get Magic Lantern installation automated
Message-ID: <3C0E767D.28A21092@hq.org>


"US Government advisor Richard Clarke says software companies
should distribute patches that automatically update customers'
computers."

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_466189.html?menu=


Experts reject call for automated virus protection

Anti-virus experts have rejected a US government call for
automated software patches to combat computer viruses.

Sophos says calls for software vendors to do more are out of touch
with typical users' requirements.

They point out that many customers would reject anything that
undermines their sovereignty over their computer systems.

US Government advisor Richard Clarke says software companies
should distribute patches that automatically update customers'
computers.

                                       But Sophos says the idea betrays
a lack of understanding of how
                                       anti-virus software already
operates.

                                       "Most anti-virus vendors give
their customers the option of
                                       automating updates, but some
businesses are reticent about
                                       outsourcing crucial security
measures," explained senior technology
                                       consultant Graham Cluley.

                                       "For peace of mind they'd rather
implement their own updates to
                                       ensure they work properly for
their environment."

                                       Mr Clarke's comments came amidst
a fresh virus outbreak. Goner is
                                       an email-disseminating worm that
purports to be a screensaver.

                                       Story filed: 17:35 Wednesday 5th
December 2001




From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn  Tue Dec  4 19:58:51 2001
From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:58:51 +0800
Subject: Locks and Sewing machines
Message-ID: <200112050351.TAA26204@ecotone.toad.com>


Dear sirs/madams,
We are a manufacturer specializing in all kinds of padlocks in China. Now, we can supply iron padlock and brass padlock in good quality and competitive price. Our products are exported into Middle East , South America, South-east Asia ,Europe and Africa. And they are warmly welcome in these regions. We can also manufacture the products according to the brand name the buyers request. We introduce ourselves and hope that you will be interested in our products. If so, your inquiries are welcome and we will try our best to satisfy you.
Meanwhile, we can also supply sewing machine including JA series, GN series, FN series and JH series.
Please visit our website:  http://www.china-padlock.com/
Contact: zhu jian jin
Tel:0086-578-3158898
Fax:0086-578-3157775
E-mail:mailto:jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn
If the information interrupt you, we feel sorry for it and please delete it. Thank you.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec  4 17:13:16 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:13:16 +1100
Subject: Home page redirection
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011205121219.00a4dc20@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: RE: [2600-AU] hackers love google (apparently)

 > Yep, they even have their own customised version..
 >
 > http://www.google.com/intl/xx-hacker/




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec  5 04:52:53 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:52:53 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Ellison donates software for U.S. security
Message-ID: 



who'd thunk

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-8070437.html

Ellison donates software for U.S. security
By Wylie Wong
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
December 4, 2001, 8:20 p.m. PT
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-8070437.html?tag=prntfr

Oracle Chief Executive Larry Ellison said Tuesday that he has donated
Oracle software to the U.S. government to create a database for national
security.

After the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Ellison has championed the need for
the United States to create a national standard for identification cards.
During his keynote speech at Oracle's OpenWorld customer conference in San
Francisco, Ellison said he has delivered Oracle's 9i database management
software to a U.S. government agency for national security, but he
declined to give further details, such as which agency or for what usage.

"We don't run those law enforcement agencies. We just provide them
software," he said during a news conference.

Ellison had earlier offered to donate its database software, but charge
for maintenance and upgrades as part of his goal of creating a national ID
standard.

Ellison has suggested airport security would be improved by requiring
travelers to provide their names and social security numbers to airport
security personnel. Security personnel could then compared the travelers'
thumbprints with those stored in a national security database to ensure
accurate identification.

When Oracle started up nearly 25 years ago, it built databases for the
Central Intelligence Agency. Database management software allows
businesses, Web sites and government agencies to store and manage vast
amounts of information. For example, Ellison said, the Immigration and
Naturalization Service has more than 80,000 handprints of travelers and
foreigners with visas to enter the country. He said national security data
is currently housed in multiple databases when it should be grouped
together in one central repository.

"There is cooperation (among government agencies)," he said. "But there's
a lot of data fragmentation."

During his news conference, Ellison added that a national standard for
identification cards is important for national security reasons. "Our
existing ID's should not be easily forged," he said. "Credit cards are
based on a set of standards, why doesn't the government?"




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Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:58:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Search engine placement GUARANTEED RESULTS IN WRITING!!!!!  10% off
Message-ID: <200112052158.NAA11782@toad.com>


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From alqaeda at hq.org  Wed Dec  5 14:14:06 2001
From: alqaeda at hq.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:14:06 -0800
Subject: guns, encryption, ID, biometrics, document authentication,
  unswipable CA  drivers licenses
Message-ID: <3C0E9C2E.CC2B72C5@senate.gov>


Learned the following today: starting soon --Jan 2002 IIRC-- you can't
use an unswipable drivers license to buy a gun in CA.  When asked, the
 employee said there was encrypted info on them
that was harder to forge than the holograph-laminated front.

When I said that the licenses could be read with a regular cardreader
and that info could be forged, he suggested it was the newer license
(with two pictures vs 1 and an optical bar code too).  He suggested that

the "encrypted info" was harder to forge than the laminated front.

This would be possible if the front info was securely hashed with a
secret key.

Anyone have more info?  Good citizens are curious if they did this
right, and
what all the bits on the strip mean.



So monkeywrenching the magstrip will impair your constitutional rights.

A replacement license is $12; perhaps a good citizen needs a spare.

In any case Govn'or Slime Davis signed a law requiring fingerprints in a
year or two.

I bet they'll be taking hair samples or cheek scrapings in five years.




From alq at bora.org  Wed Dec  5 14:31:09 2001
From: alq at bora.org (Alfred Qaeda)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:31:09 -0800
Subject: A note to virus authors
Message-ID: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>


>>"The subject line says 'Hi' and will be from someone you know,"
Symantec security response group manager Kevin Haley said. "The
text will say 'How are you? I saw this screensaver and immediately
thought of you.' That's a giveaway."<<

Authors, How can you put so much effort into writing cool virii
and do such an amateur job on the social engineering?

Include a hundred different, likely sounding subject lines (encrypted
of course, but you knew that).   A single constant subject line is *so*
easy to warn
against.  You are defeated by word of mouth and a little medium-term
memory.
Exceed the human memory requirements, gentlemen.   You'll have a better
chance of a truly inspiring piece of electronic performance art.

-------
"Forget cyberterrorists (tm) in distant lands; a few daisycutters on
Redmond and your virus problems disappear."




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Dec  5 11:53:07 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:53:07 -0500 (est)
Subject: A little quiet in here....
In-Reply-To: <200112052143.fB5Lhjm18964@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: 


Well, I did get your particular message.  After scumscribing to lne.com, I
got 3-4 messages, and nothing more...  I guess it's time to read from "the
archives" -- if they've caught any traffic at all.

Someone mentioned lne had a bad dns entry for an mx record (an extra .)
Choate mentioned he was going to switch ssz to some other T1's or
something...  (I generally don't pay attention to Choate when he's not
posting hillariously illogical Choatian-Prime posts.)

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Wed, 5 Dec 2001 mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:

> Hmmm.... no CDR traffic for about two days..... Toad is dead, 
> einstein.ssz.com seems off the 'Net completely, and lne.com is 
> deserted.
> 
> Conspiracy theorists, start your keyboards :)
> _______________________________________________________________________________
> Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address?
> Visit http://www.FastCircle.com




From newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com  Wed Dec  5 15:14:03 2001
From: newsblast at wallstreetuniverse.com (Wallstreet Universe)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:14:03 PST
Subject: Is The Bull Stampede On?
Message-ID: <200112052322.XAA01230@s0208.pm0.net>


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From nachwelt at web.de  Wed Dec  5 07:03:01 2001
From: nachwelt at web.de (Olav Stetter)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:03:01 +0100
Subject: Imagine Bob owns an ISP...
Message-ID: <01120516030100.00921@elevator>


Hello everyone!
I thought the following question might be of interest: Imagine Bob owns an 
ISP. Bob doesn't like government agencies very much and has (yet) no 
surveillence equipment installed. Alice now makes a contract with Bob that he 
provides internet access to Alice and she pays for it. If Bob is forced to 
install Carnivore-like equipment or anything of the like, he promises to tell 
Alice immediately. If he doesn't and Alice finds out, he has to pay [insert 
very large sum here] $ to Alice.

Now what happens when Bob is legally (or otherwise) forced to make his 
network a "patriotic" one and isn't allowed to tell Alice?
(as it is proposed in this "Convention on Cyber-Crime" by the European Union; 
at least that is my reading, which may very well be wrong; but in fact it is 
of no relevance here)

Thanks,
Olav Stetter


-- 
Noch sind sie gleich bereit, zu weinen und zu lachen,
Sie ehren noch den Schwung, erfreuen sich am Schein;
Wer fertig ist, dem ist nichts rechts zu machen;
Ein Werdender wird immer dankbar sein.
--  Faust I, J. W. v. Goethe




From getnoticed at getfriction.org  Wed Dec  5 14:08:08 2001
From: getnoticed at getfriction.org (get some)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:08:08 -0600
Subject: get in the action
Message-ID: <200112052207.OAA12985@toad.com>


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From mikecabot at fastcircle.com  Wed Dec  5 13:46:19 2001
From: mikecabot at fastcircle.com (mikecabot at fastcircle.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:46:19 -0500
Subject: A little quiet in here....
Message-ID: <200112052143.fB5Lhjm18964@slack.lne.com>


Hmmm.... no CDR traffic for about two days..... Toad is dead, 
einstein.ssz.com seems off the 'Net completely, and lne.com is 
deserted.

Conspiracy theorists, start your keyboards :)
_______________________________________________________________________________
Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address?
Visit http://www.FastCircle.com




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Dec  5 14:52:49 2001
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:52:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: We're back...
Message-ID: 



Hi,

Well after a couple of days down time we're back.

Seems my providers machine room got a tad wet from somebody dumping a water 
main into it (perhaps somebody wanted to go swimming?). Seems it's gonna
run in the $5M range for repairs and such after they're all done.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From polandjm at hhs4.hhs.csus.edu  Wed Dec  5 17:00:04 2001
From: polandjm at hhs4.hhs.csus.edu (Jim M. Poland)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:00:04 -0800 
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 






From fygrave at tigerteam.net  Wed Dec  5 02:39:56 2001
From: fygrave at tigerteam.net (Fyodor)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:39:56 +0700
Subject: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless
In-Reply-To: <0efd01c17cdb$20af83a0$5300a8c0@marcel>; from
  mdpopescu@yahoo.com on Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 05:48:33PM +0200
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011204102518.00a1e010@pop.useoz.com>
  <0d5901c17ca0$fccb5480$5300a8c0@marcel>
  <20011204191450.G29550@tigerteam.net>
  <0efd01c17cdb$20af83a0$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: <20011205173956.X29550@tigerteam.net>


> > corporations bring the country into the situation when the rulling top
> > of the country is having/sharing a huge amount (can't bring any number) of
> > all the profits, while the rest of population (especially pensioners in
> > russia (people of age of 50 and above, who are brought up in
> > post-socialist environment and are totally incapable to adopt to new
> > environment)) are thrown and maintained in poverty.
> 
> I understand that, but I thought having *incompetent* corrupt people is
> better than having *competent* ones! Who said "let's be happy that we don't

The difference is: those people are incompetent in performing the roles
which they were elected for (i.g. being governors of country's wealth,
building laws and rules in the country to assist economy development and
such), but those people are very *competent* in ripping the other people
off. That is the primary reason why they went for the game to be elected
in government and that's the primary reason why they got power to do so.


> have all the government that we're paying for" (or something like that)? The
> flaw here is the idea that the government COULD be a good thing, provided
> that the governors are competent. I disagree with that.

Indeed. "Don't give power to those who desire it. Those who do, desire
it for their own profits".

> > not all are vodka drinking idiots. but your statement makes sense. :-)
> 
> I'm not saying that all russians are such. (Not that I love them, being from
> an ex-satellite...) Only that a significant number are (just like a

What is ex-satellite? ;-)

> significant number of Americans are "couch potatoes"), and having to share
> my earnings with them is a big disincentive.
> 

I doubt that a significant number is either. There could be certain
percentage that is higher than in other countries, which might be the
reason of such image of a nation to exist.

> 
> Yep. As Ian Clarke (the initiator of Freenet) said, Americans look at the
> big mansion on the hill and say "one day I'll have one of those", while
> Irish (or Romanians, or Russians...) say "one day we'll burn that
> sonofabitch".

:-) 

> 
> That's what I was objecting to :) The solution is obvious: capitalism. The
> real one, not the fascist version.

Well, hard to say which 'real version' of capitalism is good. I would
strongly vote against american model for sure, which turns people and
people's relationships into mostly money-based relations. IMHO
relationships in eastern europe and asia are more human and less money
dependent than in US pretty much because of such reason.

> > Union? Which Union? I doubt russia is welcomed to European Union (update
> > me if I am wrong) and there's no former Soviet Union either. More over
> > the Union of Idependent Countries, seems to be getting gone piece by
> > piece, at least now you need to proper visa if you want to visit Russia
> > from one of the 'former' republics.
> 
> Really? I didn't know that. Anyway, being old people and so on, I am sure
> they are nostalgic about the One Big Union.

It was a good thing (tm). That's what european union is coming too.
Easier econimics relationship between parts of the union. Easier
traveling. Centralised model of control of such union is a bit flawed
though, but definetely is better than heaps of small countries with its
own barriers.

> Well, at least there's two of us 

:-p

-- 
http://www.notlsd.net
PGP fingerprint = 56DD 1511 DDDA 56D7 99C7  B288 5CE5 A713 0969 A4D1




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From rfiero at pophost.com  Wed Dec  5 17:49:51 2001
From: rfiero at pophost.com (Richard Fiero)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:49:51 -0800
Subject: in praise of gold 
In-Reply-To: <20011204081720.91562.qmail@web13206.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200112040425.XAA07055@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011205174801.00a024d0@pop.pophost.com>


My point is not to comment on coins, gold or gold digging, but 
to note that these topics are tied together in the archaic mind 
of which there is abundance on this list.
In his review of COINS, BODIES, GAMES, AND GOLD (Leslie Kurke, 
Princeton University Press, 1999), L. Randall Wray makes the 
following points in the March 2001 edition of THE JOURNAL OF ECONOMIC ISSUES.
" . . . it has long been established that the first coins were 
issued in Lydia and East Greece, probably no earlier than the 
third or fourth quarter of the seventh century BC.  The dating 
is puzzling, because we also know that money, local markets, 
long-distance trade, and even complex financial instruments 
existed for thousands of years before coins were invented.  If 
precious metal coins were indeed invented to reduce transaction 
costs, one wonders why it took so long for sophisticated 
traders to discover them.
" . . . As Karl Polany warned long ago, the Greek economy was 
'embedded' in other noneconomic institutions, 'the economic 
process itself being instituted through kinship, marriage, 
age-groups, secret societies, totemic associations, and public solemnities.'
" . . . She [Leslie Kurke] begins by quoting an intriguing 
passage form Herodotus:
'The Lydians use customs very similar to those of the Greeks, 
apart from the fact that they prostitute their female 
children.  And first of men whom we know, they struck and used 
currency of gold and silver, and they were also the first 
retail traders.  And the Lydians themselves claim that also the 
games that now exist for them and for the Greeks were their invention.'
"Note how Herodotus juxtaposes prostitution, coinage, retail 
trade, and games--all (inaccurately) attributed to the Lydians, 
who are otherwise supposed to be much like the Greeks. As Kurke 
wonders, 'Why do all these phenomena form a natural class . . .'
" . . . while prostitution, games, and retail trade are 
frequently discussed and linked in the [period] literature, 
coinage is virtually never discussed (at least in a positive 
sense; almost all references are to counterfeiting).  Quite the 
contrary, Kurke insists . . . for concern with what the texts 
_don't_ say. She also notes that the greatest Greek democracy, 
Athens, produced not a single text supportive of 
democracy--rather, all contemporaneous discussion of Athenian 
political theory was written by a hostile elite.
" . . . In her view, 'the minting of coin would represent the 
state's assertion of its ultimate authority to constitute and 
regulate value in all spheres in which general-purpose money 
operated simultaneously--economic, social, political, and 
religious.  Thus, state-issued coinage as a universal 
equivalent, like the civic _agora_ in which it circulated, 
symbolized the merger in a single token or site of many 
different domains of value, all under the final authority of the city.'
"In a sense, the choice of precious metals for coinage was a 
historical accident, a pointed challenge to the elite monopoly 
over precious metal.  By coining precious metal, the _polis_ 
appropriated the highest sphere of gift exchange, and with its 
stamp it asserted its ultimate authority--both inwardly (or 
domestically) but also outward (in long-distance trade): 'For 
every Greek _polis_ that issued its own coin asserted its 
autonomy and independence from every other Greek city, while 
coinage also functions as one institution
among many through which constituted itself as the final 
instance against the claims of an internal elite.'  As the 
_polis_ used coins for its own payments and insisted on payment 
in coin, it inserted its sovereignty into retail trade in the 
_agora_.  Mainstream economists frequently assert that growth 
of the local market was associated with expansion of democracy, 
but Kurke stands the typical Austrian argument on its head by 
noting the critical role played by the _polis_ in wresting 
control away from the elite.
" . . . introduction of coins arose out of a 'seventh/sixth 
century crisis of justice and unfair distribution of 
property.'  Coins appeared at this particular time because the 
_polis_ had gained sufficient strength to rival the _symposia_, 
-hetaireiari_ (private drinking clubs), and other institutions 
and _xenia_ (elite networking) that maintained elite 
dominance.  At the same time, the _agora_ and its use of coined 
money subverted hierarchies of gift exchange, just as a shift 
to taxes and regular payments to city officials (as well as 
severe penalties levied on officials who accepted gifts) 
challenged the 'natural' order that relied on gifts and 
favors.  It is no coincidence that elite literary works 
disparaged the _agora_ as a place for deceit and that coinage 
was always noted for its 'counterfeit' quality.
" . . . Obviously the elite reacted to such developments, 
although in a veiled manner.  When money is discussed in the 
texts, its introduction is invariably attributed to tyrants who 
destroy the _nomos_, the community, and the divine order.  It 
is also interesting that the elite usually attributes invention 
of money to the requirements of scorned retail trade--just as 
modern economics does, albeit without scorn--rather than to the 
struggle to assert sovereignty of the _polis_.  As Kurke 
argues, this 'mystification' of the origins of money is 
ideological--as it remains today--a purposeful rejection of the 
legitimacy of democratic government.
"A major portion of the book is devoted to elite 
representations of games and 'bodies' (prostitution, 
objectification of women, and artistic depiction of the female 
form).  Recall from the quote above that Herodotus linked 
Lydian creation of coinage to invention of games and 
prostitution of female children.  Kurke notes that the whole 
array of Greek games emerged at the same time as coins and 
wonders how games form a natural class with coins in literary 
texts--with games of chance ridiculed while games of order were 
held to be appropriate.  She argues that games of chance served 
as a shorthand for all the vices of a disembedded economy: the 
acquisition of small profits by shameful means and creation of 
random fortunes as opposed to the 'natural' fortuned gained 
through aristocratic birth.
"Just as two classes of games were created, two classes of 
prostitute were invented at the time of coinage. . . . it 
becomes necessary for the elite to distinguish their 
prostitutes from those used by the citizens.  Thus, the 
_hetariai_ (courtesans) who frequented the _symposia_ to 
exchange their services for 'gifts' were distinguished from the 
_pornai_ (whores) who serviced citizens for coins. Kurke notes 
that the _polis_ created cheap public brothels for use by the 
citizens because 'to be a citizen means always having a place 
to put your penis.'"




From frissell at panix.com  Wed Dec  5 15:10:52 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:10:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Reputation of a Reputation
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> By the way, a topic I talked about a month or two ago, the bogus nature
> of the _Economics_ prize, has been in the news. Some of the descendants
> of the Nobel family want the Economics prize to have no connection to
> the name "Nobel."
>
> Their claim is that Alfred Nobel didn't create or fund the prize, so why
> is it called "Nobel"?
>
> I think the subtext is that the Econ prize is trivializing the other
> prizes.

It's actually called the "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics".


And even though "Moral Philosophy" is not a science, it is a bit easier to
award reasonable prizes in than Literature and Peace.  "Toni Morrison call
your agent."

DCF
----
"War was created so that men in primative societies would have a valid
excuse for deserting the wife and kids."









From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Dec  5 18:42:49 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:42:49 -0800
Subject: will the real capitalism please stand up
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206135241.00a2bd90@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011205184249.00816490@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:58 PM 12/6/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>Objectivism the real thing? How do you separate  fascism  from capitalism? 

Coercion.




From mv at cdc.gov  Wed Dec  5 18:48:17 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 18:48:17 -0800
Subject: Ellison holds Liberty down as Rumsfeld does her
Message-ID: <3C0EDC71.9196F91@cdc.gov>


At 01:52 PM 12/5/01 +0100, Eugene Leitl wrote:
>who'd thunk
>
>http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1004-200-8070437.html
>
>Ellison donates software for U.S. security

Oracle OpenWorld 2001
Moscone Center
San Francisco, California
December 2-7, 2001


SAFETY AND SECURITY POLICIES

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU READ AND FOLLOW THESE PROCEDURES

In the wake of the September 11 events, Oracle Corporation is taking
additional
safety measures for OpenWorld. We are working to make these changes with

minimal impact on our attendees, but would ask for your cooperation to
ensure that  appropriate safety measures are taken for our event.

This year expect to see more security. Uniformed police officers will be
on
duty at Moscone Convention Center and extra Security Officers will be
roving all
Conference sites and the exhibit hall floor. However, there is a new
security
policy being instituted for OpenWorld that you need to be aware of:

While on-site, you should carry a photo ID (driver's license or
passport) at
all times.




From mail at poweropt.com  Wed Dec  5 16:04:55 2001
From: mail at poweropt.com (PowerOptionsPlus)
Date: 5 Dec 2001 19:04:55 -0500
Subject: PriceWatch Alert!  TTWO - AOL - EBAY - QQQ - - DELL
Message-ID: 

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From stsls at hanmail.net  Wed Dec  5 02:17:32 2001
From: stsls at hanmail.net (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?vcXFwrz2?=)
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:17:32 +0900
Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dIMPWvcW/tcittbUguriw7SC/tb7utbUguei/7LDtLi4u?=
Message-ID: <200112051015.fB5AFPJ17430@mail.kornet.net>

MBC 무빙 잉글리쉬 																																		 		 				 		    안녕하세요?
 MBC무비잉글리쉬입니다. 
 MBC무비잉글리쉬는 세계적인 기업 월트 디즈니사와 제휴로멀티미디어 통합기술을 이용한
 최첨단디지털 교재로 데이터압축방식인 M-PEG를 구현하여 만들었습니다.
 여기에는 캡션 기능이 첨가되어(영문자막, 한글자막, 무자막)선택과 DICTAION 기능이 첨가
 되어 즉석에서 듣기능력 평가를할 수 있도록 기획되었습니다.
 MBC 아카데미 무비잉글리쉬는 올바른 영어교육의 방향 제시를통하여 학회나 학교, SK나
 한국통신등에서 효율적인 학습체계로손쉽고 재미있게 실질적인 영어실력을 키울 수 있으므로, 전국의많은 기업에서 활용을 하고  있습니다.     현재 고개님들의 학습에 도움이 되고자, 무료 샘플 CD를 배포하고
 있아오니 관심 있으신 분은 아래의 배너를 클릭하여 주시기 바랍니다. 감사합니다. 
	 본 메일이 불필요하시다면 간단히 제목을 "수신거부"로 하여 webmaster at imovieenglish.com로 수신거부메일을 보내주십시요.
      		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 				 		 		 	   
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From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  5 09:45:33 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:45:33 +0200
Subject: Reputation capital
References: <392A28D4-E99A-11D5-80CD-0050E439C473@got.net>
Message-ID: <25cc01c17db4$a3b5a3e0$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "Tim May" 

> I think all this stuff about reputations is being solved pretty neatly by
> the credit bureaus... up to getting scalars on people / companies.

> This is naive. Credit bureaus handle only a particular class of
> reputations, certain types of credit-worthiness, and then with
> well-documented deep flaws:

Ok, I agree I was too happy to have found something connected to this :)
Let's say there APPEARS to be a solution, at least to a class of problems -
trade reputations - and the credit bureaus MIGHT BE a good start in that
direction. (And apparently a good second step would be the removal of the
flaws you mention.)

Also, regarding the flaws: something like this would be a HUGE improvement
over the current situation in many countries (mine included).

Mark




From FREE.AUCTION.SITE at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec  5 18:25:52 2001
From: FREE.AUCTION.SITE at einstein.ssz.com (FREE.AUCTION.SITE at einstein.ssz.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:25:52 -0600
Subject: 
Message-ID: <200112060231.UAA31552@einstein.ssz.com>

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From newsletter at megasexoffers.com  Thu Dec  6 00:11:32 2001
From: newsletter at megasexoffers.com (MegaSexOffers)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:11:32 -0800
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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Dec  6 01:53:40 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 01:53:40 -0800
Subject: ANNOUNCE: SF Cypherpunks, Saturday, 12/8, U.C.SANTA CRUZ,
  College VIII Room 240, 12:30-5:30
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011206014509.03847050@idiom.com>


SF Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting, 8 December 01, U.C.Santa Cruz, College 
VIII Room 240, 12:30-5:30

We're meeting Way Down South in the land of Boletus edulus mushrooms
and Monarch Butterflies*, which are both in season, and Banana Slugs.
It's an open public meeting on US soil, everyone's invited,
and it's another month where the Second Saturday showed up early,
so it's this Saturday.

* Eric Blossom will be giving a talk and demo on Software Defined Radios. *

An anonymous cypherpunk may allegedly be discussing development status
of unnamed anonymity products or more reasons for anonymity.

Several less anonymous cypherpunks will be discussing
tools to build, or rebuild, or build differently -
what lessons have we learned from PGP for the next product?
What's a practical toolset for a human rights organization?

Now that the list has been Officially Declared Dead (stego-mpegs at 11:00),
harassed by flooded machine rooms and mailing list glitches,
we've been taunted by some science-fiction authors,
finally probably been published by others, and been dissed by several
Intellectual Property judges, and informed that civil liberties
and due process are pre-millenial relics, we've got some slack
to re-evaluate the cypherpunks movement.  What technologies
should we be looking at?  What needs building next?
What succeeded?  What failed?  What synergies do we need to exploit?

We'll also be discussing schedules for February's meeting,
since The RSA Tradeshow will be the 18th-22nd in San Jose.
If you're an out-of-towner expecting to be here for the show,
please send some mail if you know if you'll be around the
weekend before (Presidents Day) or after the show.

======= Directions and Transportation ======
Kristen Tsolis has reserved a room for Saturday, 12/8 from 12:30~5:30.
UCSC College VIII Room 240.

While UCSC is a mere 30 minutes from Silicon Valley,
it's tough to get to from SF without a car,
so Bill Stewart will be meeting several Usual Suspects at
Mountain View Caltrain at 12:13pm (train leaves SF at 11:00.)
Look for the burgundy-colored Chevy van, or for Bill :-)
The Caltrain schedule ( http://www.caltrain.com/caltrain/index.html )
Drop email to bill.stewart at pobox.com if you want to be waited for.

UCSC can be a maze to the uninitiated, so you will want to print this map.
The meeting space at UCSC is clearly marked:

http://www.shmoo.com/~ktsolis/ucscmap.gif

here are some more maps:

http://www.ucsc.edu/general_info/maps.html

To get to UCSC, take US 280 or CA 101 to US 880 or CA 17 south. Take CA 17
south to Santa Cruz, then CA 1 north to Bay St. Turn right on Bay which will
take you to the base of campus. One can also come south from San Francisco
on CA 1 to Bay.

At the base of campus, take a left onto Empire Grade, which will take you to
the West Entrance. Take that right onto Heller, and then take a right on
Koshland into the College Eight Lower Parking Lot. There's no need to pay
for parking on weekends, and as long as you don't park in a 24 hour space,
you won't get a ticket. If you need assistance with handicapped parking,
please email kristen at pobox.com.

Walk up the stairways between the College Eight dorms until you reach the
top flight of stairs. When you are facing the top parking lot, turn right
towards Room 240.

The cafe there will be closed for Christmas Break, so bring your coffee and
victuals with you.

*Natural Bridges State Park: http://www.aa6g.org/Butterflies/monarch.html

Bill Stewart's Cellphone is +1-415-307-7119, if you're lost and he's not.
*********




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Dec  6 02:04:45 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 02:04:45 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011206020259.0384c2b0@idiom.com>

 From Claudia Schmeing 's summary:
  
=========

1.  Release 1.93 ships!
     ===================
     1 post Dec 3
     http://lists.freeswan.org/pipermail/users/2001-December/005632.html

A number of small improvements have been added to this release, which was
shipped on-time.

Some highlights:

* Diffie-Hellman group 5 is now the first group proposed.
* Two cases where fragmentation is needed will be handled better, thanks
   to these two changes

        The code that decides whether to send an ICMP complaint back about
        a packet which had to be fragmented, but couldn't be, has gotten
        smart enough that we now feel comfortable enabling it by default.
   and

        IKE (UDP/500) packets which were large enough to be fragmented used
        to be mishandled, with some of the fragments failing to bypass IPsec
        tunnels properly.  This has been fixed; our thanks to Hans Schultz.

* If Pluto gets more than one RSA key from DNS, it will now try each key.
   This will help when a system administrator replaces a key.
* There is preliminary support for building RPMs.
* SMP support is better.
* The team has eliminated a vulnerability that might permit a denial of 
service
   attack.

What can we expect from the next release? Henry Spencer writes:

     We are in the process of chasing down a couple of significant bugs (which
     have been there since at least 1.92 and possibly earlier), and we *might*
     ship another release quite shortly if we nail them down and fix them.  If
     we don't, we won't.  Barring that possibility, the next release is planned
     for the end of January; a more precise date will be announced shortly.






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From greetings at reply.yahoo.com  Wed Dec  5 23:19:30 2001
From: greetings at reply.yahoo.com (greetings at reply.yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 02:19:30 -0500
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
Message-ID: <200112060719.XAA00592@toad.com>


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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 09:50:39 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 04:50:39 +1100
Subject: Russian Party of Pensioners Manifesto, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206044345.00a24eb0@pop.useoz.com>


"Without property rights in the means of production to separate one man's 
plan from another man's plan, there can only be one plan, one plan for 
everything, one plan for everyone, one plan that all must obey."

Libertarianism? Its the one plan here that all must obey.The ubergeeks one 
true religon.Yet you seek to rip off the hard earned kudos of 'anarchy' and 
'punk'.You stand exposed as the fraud you are james by your own straw man 
argument.
Will you denounce the march for capitalism for its rank socialist 
organising and marching?




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 09:58:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 04:58:59 +1100
Subject: fuel injected firearm, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206045316.00a29070@pop.useoz.com>


One of the improvised weapons of choice these days is LPG bombs and
mortars.Im not an urbane guerrilla(yet) but does anyone want to condense
something out of this?

PDF] Code of Practice on the Use of LPG for the Production of ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... 4.3.4 All LPG mortars shall be clearly marked ... known as black powder
bombs. Liquefied
petroleum gas ( ) , as ... to in paragraph (a). LPG ( ) , an abbreviation
for ...
www.info.gov.hk/tela/forms/form-q.pdf - Similar pages
[PDF] Code of Practice on the Use, Storage and Conveyance of ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... the Code of Practice on the Use of LPG for the Production of Special
Effects (CP2 ... shall
not be used for concussion mortars or flash pots. 2.7.6 Binary ...
www.info.gov.hk/tela/forms/form-p.pdf - Similar pages
[ More results from www.info.gov.hk ]
Rediff on the Net: India Online News Information ...
... and not country-made bombs -- were used. ... More. ... rocket launchers
and heavy mortars
-- to the area. ... More. ... tearing hurry to unload LPG as they were
already ...
www.rediff.com/news/octweek1.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar pages
ModernRules
... Width X Depth. Aircraft (assorted bombs), 4" X 6". 2-3 ... 10, 8, 6, 8
/ 7 / 6. < < <
< < Mortars and guns under 90mm. ... Roll 1D6 for Soviet 73mm LPG on BMP1's
Failure to
KO ...
www.gpa63.dial.pipex.com/wargames/modern/modernrules.htm - 32k - Cached -
Similar pages
Code of Pratice LPG
... 4.3.4, All LPG mortars shall be clearly marked with the maximum ...
Lifters are also
known as black powder bombs. ... LPG (%[*o.p), an abbreviation for
liquefied ...
www.tela-esela.gov.hk/en/CodeOfPractice/CP2_LPG.html - 101k - Cached -
Similar pages
[DOC] Figure 3-9
File Format: Microsoft Word 97 for Macintosh - View as HTML
... It produced liquefied petroleum gases (LPG), fuels, petroleum coke ...
forces using rockets,
bombs, artillery, machine gun tracers, and mortars on six occasions ...
dcdd.amedd.army.mil/ict/mout/FM%2090-10-1%20latest%20version/
Appendix%20Q.doc - Similar pages




From yourdailydeal at lists.em5000.com  Thu Dec  6 06:09:30 2001
From: yourdailydeal at lists.em5000.com (yourdailydeal)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:09:30 PST
Subject: Your 2 Minutes away from a FREE cell phone
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From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec  6 04:22:50 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:22:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
In-Reply-To: <200112060719.XAA00592@toad.com>
Message-ID: 



And a happy bomb day to you too CJ :-)
Many happy _returns_ !!!



On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 greetings at reply.yahoo.com wrote:

> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 02:19:30 -0500
> From: greetings at reply.yahoo.com
> Reply-To: sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com
> To: cypherpunks at toad.com
> Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
> 
> Surprise! You've just received a Yahoo! Greeting
> from "CJ" (sonofgomez709 at yahoo.com)!
> 
> To view this greeting card, click on the following
> Web address at anytime within the next 60 days.
> 
> http://greetings.yahoo.com/greet/view?72CERHRSJ5FMT
> 
> If that doesn't work, go to http://greetings.yahoo.com/pickup and
> copy and paste this code:
> 
> 72CERHRSJ5FMT
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> The Yahoo! Greetings Team
> 
> 
> -------------------------
> Yahoo! Greetings is a free service. If you'd like to send someone a
> Yahoo! Greeting, you can do so at http://greetings.yahoo.com/
> 
> Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
> http://rd.yahoo.com/mktg/greetings/txt/confirmation/tagline/?http://personals.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 04:55:49 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:55:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Austin Cypherpunks Physical Meet - Tue. Dec. 11
Message-ID: 




Time:                Dec. 11, 2001
                     Second Tuesday of each month 
                     7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later)

Location:            Central Market HEB Cafe
                     38th and N. Lamar
                     Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables.
                     If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the 
                     outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside
                     the building proper.

Identification:      Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography"
                     book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick.

Contact Info:        http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#austincpunks




 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From hot_tickers at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  6 07:15:27 2001
From: hot_tickers at yahoo.com (HotTicker.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 07:15:27 (GMT)
Subject: Hotticker.com Initiation of Coverage
Message-ID: <3C0EBB2C0000920A@wallstreet.stockrumors.com> (added by wallstreet.stockrumors.com)


Hotticker.com Initiation of Coverage
Corporate Profile
Multinet International Corp., Inc. (OTC BB: MNIL)
***************************************************************

Multinet International Corp., Inc. dba
Showintel Networks, Inc. Executive Summary

Address: 	574 Greentree Cove,  Suite 101, Collierville TN  38017

Exec. Contact: 	David Lott, President,  Kelly Lefkowitz, Acting CF

Industry: 	Entertainment Advertising,   Video-On Demand,  Database Marketing

Business Overview
Showintel Networks, Inc. (�Showintel�) increases consumption of entertainment by creating a system that interacts with the �entertainment life-cycle.�   Combining theater-based advertising, innovative loyalty programs, and video-on-demand (VOD) access to pay-per-view (PPV) and subscription services, ShowEnTel can increase loyalty and revenue to a chain of theaters, increase purchases of ancillary products (soundtracks, DVDs, videos, merchandise), and create a pinpoint targeted direct marketing connection with entertainment consumers to stimulate rentals and PPV.  In addition, some of the infrastructure investment can generate incremental revenue through strategic relationships with local ISP and wireless network operators.

In-theater advertising: Showintel is placing interactive displays in theaters that will offer advertising and coming attractions that theater patron can watch passively or interactively.  We have an exclusive agreement with See/Saw Communications, Inc.   See/Saw was created in part by the principals of Toolbox Productions Inc., to sell the advertising space on our displays.  Toolbox is a full service company, uniquely qualified to sell, produce, write, edit and mix audio/video promotional campaigns and sales presentations. Toolbox was founded in 1995 as the exclusive on-air promotion facility for the United Paramount Network (UPN). Clients include MGM, ABC, Sony, Paramount and Studios USA. 

Loyalty Program: As a reward for interacting with the advertising displays, theater patrons will be offered the opportunity the sign up for a loyalty program that offers them discounts on future tickets as well as discounted or free offers from sponsors of the loyalty program.

E-mail Marketing: Once a part of the loyalty program, Showintel will collect data on the movies seen.  This will allow us to market merchandise directly related to the films seen as well as creating offers for entertainment of a similar genre.  

VOD Infrastructure: As entertainment properties continue along the entertainment lifecycle, Showintel will offer PPV and subscription services to the residential and hospitality markets.

Wireless Infrastructure: Showintel has a relationship with Truespeed Wireless, Inc. a provider of 802.11b wireless systems that provide subscribers with 11Mb of bandwidth.  Since Showintel requires high bandwidth to provide this system, it will be cost effective to erect wireless towers rather than pay for dedicated bandwidth.  The extra capacity can be used by Truespeed or offered to local operators to resell.   Showintel is currently in negotiations with Truespeed regarding Showintel receiving a portion of those subscriber fees.

Information: Once Showintel knows which films a theater patron has seen, we will create online conversations with them designed to obtain feedback on the shows they have seen.  This will be valuable to film producers and advertisers.  It will give us an advantage in targeting future entertainment opportunities to the consumer.
 
The Showintel Advantage: The Entertainment Lifecycle
Unlike any other system available, Showintel gets involved with the entire entertainment lifecycle.  Over the first year, viewers can choose to pay a premium to see a show early in the lifecycle or wait to save money.  This may be from buying a soundtrack, renting the video, or watching it on broadcast TV.  Normally, each stage of the cycle centers around independent contact and interaction. With a combination of in-theater contact and an on-line VOD system, Showintel will have the opportunity to profit from several of the following lifecycle stages rather than just one.

Table has been deleted from the email and may be viewed from the hotticker.com profile on Multinet International Corp. at http://hotticker.com/mnil.asp

Benefits to Customer Groups
Showintel has multiple customer groups.  Theater owners benefit from in-theater displays and loyalty programs. Entertainment consumers benefit from loyalty programs and Showintel�s life-cycle approach to entertainment.  Entertainment producers get better feedback and additional sales opportunities.  Advertisers and sponsors receive sales and branding opportunities.

Table has been deleted from the email and may be viewed from the hotticker.com profile on Multinet International Corp. at http://hotticker.com/mnil.asp

Market Opportunity
The foundation of Showintel market expansion is derived from three primary factors:

Growth of VOD/PPV Market. The VOD market alone is expected to grow from its current annual size of $30 million to $2.6 Billion in 2005.    Analysts predict there will be as many as 44.4 million homes using VOD by 2010, making the market worth anywhere from $2 billion to $6 billion a year.  Video over DSL will have 23 million subscribers by 2005.   The combined market revenue potential for Internet and video-on-demand to be $28 billion through to 2004. 

Increased Penetration into Theater Chains. As of the end of 1999, there were 36,448 theater screens housed in 7,031 sites. Independent theaters/chains account for 2800 sites. 

Better Information to Interact with Entertainment Consumers. Research shows that the average theater viewer will interact with the same piece of entertainment an additional 2.1 times.  Knowing which films they have seen will allow us to target offers to them based on.

Growth of Location-based (Kiosk) Advertising. Dubbed �the vending machine of the Internet Age�, location based displays are growing at a 20% compounded annual rate. Revenues of $3.23 trillion are expected by 2006. Up from 400,000 units today, there should be 1 million units by 2005, a 150% increase.  The interactive display market is growing at a slightly faster (24% compounded annual) rate. 

Competition
Movie Theater Advertising

NCN: National Cinema Network was the first to  introduce media and promotions in movie theatres.  NCN has onscreen presence in 10,000 theaters, however their reach in in-theater displays is much smaller.  They are partially owned by AMC.  
Showintel Advantage over other Theater-based Advertisers � We offer continuing contact focusing on the entertainment lifecycle whereas they focus only on in-theater. We also offer a comprehensive loyalty program

Residential VOD

Moviefly: Moviefly is a venture formed in August 2001 by MGM, Sony, Paramount, Universal and Warner Bros. to distribute movies on demand over the Web. Moviefly hopes to launch with 100 titles and will need at least 1 million customers to make a profit.  Moviefly isn't using streaming video. Instead, it will require viewers to download movies in their entirety before watching. 

Movies.com: Walt Disney Co. and News Corp. are launching Movies.com, which will also be offered through cable television companies will offer movies for download and viewing on personal computers. New movies and older titles will be offered from Disney�s News Corp.'s film libraries. Disney and Fox will offer new feature films soon after they are available for rental and before they are shown on traditional pay-per-view services. The other studios, including Sony Pictures Entertainment, Universal Studios, Paramount Pictures, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer and Warner Bros., will provide their films to their video-on-demand service on a non-exclusive basis.

In Demand: iN DEMAND delivers television premieres of movies, the NBA, NHL�, ESPN� FULL COURTtm college basketball, plus championship boxing, mega-event wrestling and exclusive originals.Universal and Columbia, have announced separate deals to provide films to In Demand. Comcast, Time Warner Entertainment, Cox Communications Holdings Inc., MediaOne of Delaware Inc. and TCI Communications Inc. (an AT&T subsidiary) hold stakes in iNDEMAND, which provides pay-per-view movies and events to multichannel video programming distributors

Intertainer: Delivery: Delivered to home computers and televisions through high-speed telephone (DSL) or cable connections (cable modems or digital set-top boxes). Investors: Comcast, Intel, Microsoft, NBC, Sony and Qwest Distribution: Service has completed technical and consumer trials. Commercial deployments currently in progress. Pricing: Intertainer has multiple pricing options including pay-per-view selections, and premium program package offers. Programming: Current movies and film favorites, television shows, concerts, music videos, children's programming, documentaries, enhanced TV programs and shopping. Content Providers: Include Universal Pictures, Warner Bros., Dreamworks SKG, Twentieth Century Fox, New Line Cinema, A&E Networks, Discovery Channel, ESPN, PBS, NBC, Warner Music Group, EMI Music and many others. 
Showintel Advantage over other Residential VOD Systems � We already have knowledge of the shows seen by subscribers before they are released to VOD systems.  This allows us to target our online promotions to a group of ready, willing, and interested buyers.

Hospitality VOD

On Command: On Command Corporation annually serves 250 million guests through 950,000 rooms in approximately 3,450 hotel properties. (NASDAQ: ONCO)

Lodgenet: LodgeNet covers 5,300 lodging properties, representing 870,000 hotel rooms.  (NASDAQ: LNET)
Showintel Advantage over other Hospitality VOD Systems � we offerfaster speed connections and a larger library. 

Sales and Marketing Strategy

Aggressive direct-sales effort. Our immediate goal is the sign-up and integration of 9.7% of the theater plants in the US (24.4% of the independent theaters), expanding internationally by 2004.

Low-barrier network entry Showintel is eliminating all barriers to sign-up by initially offering low-cost integration to theater owners. This is a virtual 'land-grab' strategy that will place ShowEnTel in a dominant market position.

Back-end attack on competition. To avoid the rush for e-merchant sign-up, Showintel will concentrate on and integrate with the �back-end' becoming the network for bulk-mover warehouses in the e-marketplace.

Strategic partnering. Showintel will partner with merchandise fulfillment companies to facilitate e-commerce, with local ISPs to market excess bandwidth capacity on our wireless connections, and with 

Viral market penetration. By integrating points of aggregation, Showintel offers trading partners the most efficient, logical and convenient integration method and easy-to-use, intelligent transaction fulfillment.

Revenue
Revenues are derived from in-theater advertising, loyalty program sponsorship, hospitality VOD PPV payments, residential VOD PPV and subscription payments, merchandise sales, research report sales, and resale of excess capacity on our wireless equipment to local internet service providers.

Status
Showintel has recently completed a reverse merger into a public shell (NASDAQ Symbol: MNIL.OB). We are live with our first customer, Malco Theaters, Inc., the 23rd largest theater group headquartered in Tennessee.  We are in final stages of negotiations to reach 10% of the independent film market by December 2001.  Our sole restriction will be the capital to install the hardware in the theaters we sign up.    In concert with Truespeed, Showintel intends to  test its hospitality VOD system (in development) with a major hotel in Las Vegas.

Performance Metrics and Financial Projections
Using industry averages and internal assumptions, Showintel l should achieve the following performance goals.

Table has been deleted from the email and may be viewed from the hotticker.com profile on Multinet International Corp. at http://hotticker.com/mnil.asp

Showintel, by achieving the above business goals expects to generate these financial results:

Table has been deleted from the email and may be viewed from the hotticker.com profile on Multinet International Corp. at http://hotticker.com/mnil.asp

The Showintel Team
Showintel employs highly skilled and experienced employees with proven backgrounds, led by the following management team:

David Lott, Founder & CEO. Mr. Lott has 20 years experience in business development and management.  In addition to his responsibility to SHOWINTEL NETWORKS, Mr. Lott is President and founder of Daody Management, Inc (DMI).  DMI is a warehousing and storage management company in the Greater Memphis area of Tennessee and encompasses properties in several locales of southern Texas. Properties under his management include the Canon Computer Distribution Warehouse and PanAm Flight Training Academy.  Mr. Lott developed this large real estate, storage and management company from the ground up. In 1982 he founded and operated Landscapes Unlimited, Inc. as its President.  Landscapes Unlimited, Inc. was a top 50 company in commercial landscape contracting and management. He orchestrated the company�s sale to industry leader Orkin International in 1994.  Mr. Lott brings to SHOWINTEL NETWORKS his broad entrepreneurial and practical experience in all facets of corporate development and !
management.

Kelly Lefkowitz, CFO Mr. Lefkowitz has 17 years experience in strategy, planning, finance, implementation, and interim management including 10 years experience with entertainment, promotions, technology and web-centric businesses. Lefkowitz has a talent for balancing visionary leadership and executive management roles to maintain strategic and tactical focus simultaneously.  His experience includes consulting and/or interim management engagements for NBC Entertainment division of General Electric Inc. (NYSE: GE), Internet music giant ARTISTdirect, Inc. (NASDAQ: ARTD), Hughes Electronics Corp. (NYSE: GMH), MK division of Computer Associates, Inc. (NYSE: CA), Affinity Media, Inc., ClickPLAY, Inc., CyberActive Network, Inc., Digital Entertainment Network, Inc., Lone Wolf, Inc., Making the Turn, LLC, and MetaWire, Inc.  Lefkowitz holds a BS in Business Administration from Boston University School of Management and an MBA from the University of Southern California where he has al!
so taught strategy and planning in the School of Entrepreneurship�s Business Expansion Network. Lefkowitz is performing services for Showintel as part of a consulting agreement with ClickPLAY, Inc. He has agreed to accept the full time position when needed.
 
Alan Josef Kaplan,  Executive VP Business Development � Music and computer-industry veteran Alan Josef Kaplan is the founder and former chief executive officer of the $18 million music publishing and record label company Music West. In 1990 he received his 2nd consecutive Label of the Year award from Billboard magazine and was named one of the top 40 entrepreneurs under 40 by Entrepreneur Magazine. Kaplan worked with the first national retailer of PCs, ComputerLand. He helped launch the IBM XT and AT as well as Apple�s IIc and Macintosh computers. He served as an adviser to management of Gold Circle Entertainment (music), PackageNet (online package delivery), Headspace (now Beatnik, music on the Internet), MissionStudios (video games) and Motorola Interactive Media Festival (conference on new media and the Internet).  As the founder and  chairman of ClickPLAY, Inc., Kaplan created and led the development of a media-based software that took a radical new position in the indus!
try, insuring the complete experience everytime. This core technology will be incorporating into Showintel�s systems. Kaplan is performing services for Showintel as part of a long term contract with ClickPLAY, Inc.

************************************************************************
DISCLAIMER
Wall Street Web Inc.(Hotticker.com) is an independent research firm. This report contains forward-looking statements. Pastperformance does not guarantee future results. This report is based WSW independent analysis, and may, or may not be the opinion of Wall Street WebInc.,(Hotticker.com), but relies on information supplied believed to be reasonable. WSW has been retained by Showintel Networks, Inc., and has received350,000 restricted shares of stock. WSW, Inc and/or individuals thereof may have positions in securities referred to herein and may make purchases or sales at any time. The information contained in this report is for information purposes only and should not be construed as an offer or solicitation to buy or sell any security. Investors should consult with an investment professional before investing any monies.  Copyright2001 WSW Inc.  All Rights Reserved. 

Wall Street Web Inc.

To remove your email address from our mailing list click here.
http://www.hotticker.com/cgi-bin/remove.asp




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 05:18:25 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 07:18:25 -0600
Subject: SSZ Downtime - Info about fire caused by roof leak
Message-ID: <3C0F7021.61043C31@ssz.com>


http://www.io.com/NOC/network_news.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From farmhand at nctc.com  Thu Dec  6 05:29:42 2001
From: farmhand at nctc.com (Phyllis Holder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:29:42 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c17e5a$2c164d20$11292642@farmhand>


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From farmhand at nctc.com  Thu Dec  6 05:29:42 2001
From: farmhand at nctc.com (Phyllis Holder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:29:42 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c17e5a$13db9a80$11292642@farmhand>


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From dvadb at aol.com  Wed Dec  5 22:36:37 2001
From: dvadb at aol.com (dvadb at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:36:37 +0100 (MET)
Subject: whats up                                              297845841
Message-ID: <200112060636.HAA05447@www.roland.dk>


Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
 (dvadb at aol.com) on Thursday, December 6, 2001 at 07:36:36
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

: Hey, what's up, yall?  I found a site and if you want to meet people and talk to people on webcam, you should check this out.  They're now giving members totally free memberships!    You don't even need your own webcam.  You can watch live videos of family, friends, or anybody!  What is there to lose?
http://lllil.com/livewebcam




To take yourself off my mailing list Wanna see barley legal teens sucking fucking and quick to make you cum...ummm


---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From jamesd at echeque.com  Thu Dec  6 07:59:36 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:59:36 -0800
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206200007.009f8880@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C0F2568.13524.3460CF@localhost>


    --
On 6 Dec 2001, at 20:03, mattd wrote:
> Coercion is implicit in all capitalism above low level 
> market and trade.

Nonsense.

If you do not like one guy's prices or wages, you can go to 
another, or start your own business.

Without property rights, the specialization of labor has to 
take place by something very like a state telling people what 
they must do, and what they may consume.  Thus to suppress 
capitalism requires centralized terror, and lots of it. 
Nothing less will suffice.  Been tried.

And indeed that terror is a large part of the attraction of 
socialism.  Observe the popularity among socialists of books 
by those who have murdered helpless captives.  Many 
socialists even name their ideology after mass murderers, for 
example Trotskyists.   One can hardly imagine some faction of 
neo-nazis naming themselves after one of Hitler's more 
prominent goons.

Similarly, when socialists celebrate great moments in 
socialist history, it is not the heroic battles they recall, 
but the murder of the helpless and powerless -- for example 
they recall not the last days of the Paris commune, but the 
first. 

Similarly observe how the Soviet Union, Mao's china, and the
rest ceased to be loved when the terror ceased.  When the
terror in the Soviet Union was in full flow, it was described
a glorious paradise where the concept of a policeman was
strange and unknown.  When the terror eased, then they
started to describe it as regrettably wicked, but nonetheless
a much lesser evil than the USA. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     ABIneCWWlhteIvuD9hUDGb8T65PWJmjh7sU7oHNC
     4tAoGzRBh75oPqlFsnOuCfu8sy2dLtGOXMTRdT3i4




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 13:02:13 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:02:13 +1100
Subject: Fwd: Russian Manifesto, long and probably useless 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206075059.00a28590@pop.useoz.com>


tim Quoted...
  "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have 
been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an 
arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander 
Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago
End.
AS: excellent writer also christian,social conservative.

Bakunin was deported to Siberia. He spent many years amid the horrors of 
penal servitude, but his spirit was unvanquished. He finally succeeded in 
escaping and walking eastward over a thousand miles, under extreme 
hardship, and at last reached the sea and obtained passage to Japan. From 
there he sailed to California, thence to New York, and in 1860 appeared in 
London. He had suffered innumerable hardships and adventures, had mixed 
with all sorts and conditions of men, from the rulers of Europe to the wild 
hairy Ainus, and had everywhere found that government was tyranny.
If you'd like some quotes from an anarchist tim,Ill see what I can do. 
matts wild hairy anus.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 08:21:22 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:21:22 -0800
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their meds
Message-ID: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>


   Delta for Kicking Him off Flight Because He Was Carrying the Drug
                          The Associated Press
                         Published: Dec 6, 2001
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - A man who legally uses marijuana for
medicinal purposes is suing Delta Air Lines for kicking him off a plane
because he was carrying the drug.

Irvin Rosenfeld, a stockbroker from Boca Raton, filed suit Wednesday in
federal court, claiming the airline violated federal protections for
people with disabilities.

Rosenfeld, 48, suffers from a rare and painful bone disease and finds
relief in smoking marijuana, which is prescribed by a doctor and grown
for the government. Every day, he smokes up to 12 marijuana cigarettes
to fight tumors.

In March, he was kept from boarding a Delta flight from Fort Lauderdale
to Washington, D.C., where he was to attend a U.S. Supreme Court session
on possible expansion of medicinal marijuana use. Officials told him he
had to leave the marijuana behind or get written permission from every
state he was flying over.

Rosenfeld's attorney, Christopher Sharp, said refusing to seat his
client on the airliner was like kicking a diabetic off the flight for
carrying hypodermic needles and insulin.

"We're not putting any price tag on this, but Delta's exposure in this
is considerable," Sharp said.

Rosenfeld is one of a handful of people in the country receiving
marijuana from the federal government because of unusual diseases. He
has smoked government-provided marijuana for nearly 30 years and says
without the drug, his condition would become so painful that he could
not walk and could hemorrhage.

Under the federal Air Carriers Access Act of 1986, Delta had to specify
in writing why Rosenfeld could not board the airplane and why he was
thought to be a threat to the safety of those on board, Sharp said. The
airline did not do that, he said.

A Delta spokeswoman said she was unaware that any Americans were
permitted to smoke marijuana.

"Under federal law, marijuana is an illegal drug, and I'm not aware of
any medical use exception of the nature he claims or of any private
citizen having a right to possess it in the United States," Katie
Connell said.

Rosenfeld said that when Delta turned him away, he had to find a flight
on another airline and did not get to Washington until the following
afternoon.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA3X79RWUC.html




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 09:27:06 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:27:06 -0800
Subject: state governors want to design OSes now.. 
Message-ID: <3C0FAA6A.C1E65FAD@sarin.com>


[ If I were Bill G. I'd double the price of an OS sold to one of these
States.

Since I'm not, but still resent these States, I hope they get all the
Windows OS
they deserve. ]

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011205/tc/microsoft_settlement_dc_1.html

States May Ask for Unbundled         Version of Windows

By Peter Kaplan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - State
attorneys general pressing the antitrust
case against Microsoft Corp.
(Nasdaq:MSFT - news) may ask a
judge to order the company to offer a
cheaper, stripped-down version of its Windows operating
system, a source familiar with the case said on Wednesday.

The nine states still suing Microsoft are eying the requirement
as part of a proposed antitrust remedy they are scheduled to
submit to U.S. District Court Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly on
Friday.

                           Requiring an ``unbundled'' version of Windows
is one of
                           several ideas the states are considering as
they try to come up
                           with sanctions that will be tougher than
those agreed to by
                           Microsoft, the U.S. Justice Department (news
- web sites) and
                           nine of the other states who have signed on
to a settlement of
                           the case.

        The draft remedy also would strike down a long list of loopholes
in the current
        settlement deal and do more to ensure that Microsoft discloses
key source code in
        Windows to other software makers, the source said.

        The draft also contains a provision that would require Microsoft
to include Sun
        Microsystems Inc.'s (Nasdaq:SUNW - news) Java programming
language in its new
        Windows XP (news - web sites) operating system and ensure that
its Office software
        is compatible with other software platforms, the source said.

        Microsoft had included Java in its operating system for years
but dropped it from
        Windows XP because of legal problems with Sun Microsystems.

        Lawyers representing the hold-out states held meetings today
with antitrust experts
        and industry officials to get feedback on a draft remedy
proposal, sources said.

        'GETTING AN EARFUL'

        ``They're getting input from lots of different players, and
they're getting an earful,''
        the source said.

        The hold-out states are California, Massachusetts, Connecticut,
Iowa, Florida,
        Kansas, Minnesota, West Virginia and Utah.

        Representatives of those states declined to comment on what kind
of remedy they
        will propose.

        In addition, the draft remedy proposal would require
Kollar-Kotelly to appoint a
        ``special master'' to oversee the remedy, according to the same
source.

        Under the current settlement, that task would go to a
three-person technical
        committee.

        ``I think they're seriously committed to getting an effective
remedy,'' said another
        source who has met with the attorneys general lawyers.

        The hold-out states will present their remedy proposal as an
alternative to the
        settlement reached by the Justice Department.

        In the settlement, Microsoft has agreed to take steps to give
computer makers more
        freedom to feature rival software on their machines. The deal
also requires the
        company to share parts of the inner workings of its Windows
operating system with
        other software makers.

        The settlement would be enforced by a three-person technical
committee and would
        stay in effect for at least five years.

        The department says the existing settlement terms are strong
enough to stop the
        company's monopolistic practices and would provide ``the most
effective and certain
        relief in the most timely manner.''

        ABUSED MONOPOLY

        A federal appeals court ordered the remedy hearings in a June 28
ruling, having
        concluded that the company abused its monopoly in personal
computer operating
        systems.

        Continuing to litigate could drag the case out for another two
years, the department
        says.

        But Microsoft rivals and some consumer groups have panned the
deal as weak and
        ineffectual. They say the agreement will not stop Microsoft from
retaliating against
        personal computer makers that promote non-Microsoft software.

        Critics also worry the settlement does not ensure that Microsoft
will allow a level
        playing field for other companies' add-on ``middleware''
products; and does not
        ensure that Windows will work well with computer servers running
non-Microsoft
        software.

        Kollar-Kotelly has scheduled a hearing for March to determine
what--if
        any--further--sanctions should be imposed against the company.

        Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler declined to comment specifically
on what might be
        in the remedy proposal on Friday. But he said the settlement
``represents a fair and
        reasonable compromise'' and that the case had been ``drastically
narrowed'' by the
        appeals court since the original ruling against the company last
year.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 09:32:37 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:32:37 -0800
Subject: F.B.I. officials said foreigners normally did not have privacy
  rights
Message-ID: <3C0FABB5.655D4C2@sarin.com>


F.B.I. officials said foreigners normally did not have privacy rights
        unless they have achieved permanent resident status.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nyt/20011206/ts/justice_dept_bars_use_of_gun_checks_in_terror_inquiry_1.html




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 09:33:31 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:33:31 -0800
Subject: CERT DoS'd
Message-ID: <3C0FABEB.AD612EB3@sarin.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20011205/tc/national_computer-security_site_attacked_1.html

National computer-security site attacked

        By Robert Lemos CNET News.com

        The Computer Emergency Response Team's Coordination Center, an
important
        national clearinghouse for computer-security information, came
under attack
        Wednesday, leaving its main Web site only intermittently
reachable.

                             The so-called denial-of-service attack
didn't affect the group's
                             ability to push security incident
information to its members,
                             but made public access to its sites a
crapshoot.

                             "We are working with our service providers
to resolve this
                             problem," Bill Pollak, public relations
coordinator for the
                             CERT Coordination Center, said in a
statement.

                             A denial-of-service attack can take one of
two forms: a flood
                             of data that overwhelms the Web server or
the bandwidth
                             leading to the server, or a specific
command crafted to disable
                             critical servers or Internet routers. The
CERT Coordination
                             Center (news - web sites) would not
identify which type
                             matched the attack it was suffering from.

                             The group, based at Carnegie Mellon
University in Pittsburgh,
                             Penn., coordinates the communications among
the myriad
                             response teams scattered among U.S.
universities, companies
                             and government agencies.

                             It has public Web sites to inform both
members and
                             non-members of threats but also has private
networks capable
                             of alerting members to high-priority
computer-security
                             incidents.

                             Officials at the CERT Coordination Center
would not give
                             details of the attack but earlier
acknowledged that such attacks
        are not uncommon. In May, the group suffered a similar attack.

        "We get attacked every day," Richard D. Pethia, director of the
Networked Systems
        Survivability Program at Carnegie Mellon's Software Engineering
Institute, said in a
        May interview. "The lesson to be learned here is that no one is
immune to these kinds
        of attacks. They cause operational problems, and it takes time
to deal with them."

        The CERT Coordination Center is part of Carnegie Mellon's
Software Engineering
        Institute.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 09:39:58 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:39:58 -0800
Subject: Ashcroft afraid of terrorists "corrupting education"
Message-ID: <3C0FAD6E.D889B604@sarin.com>


``They are a chilling daily chronicle of the hatred of
Americans by fanatics, who seek to .. corrupt education.."

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011206/pl/ashcroft_senate_12.html

Has the entire Cabinet gotten into JFK's cache of IV amphetamine?

Is the military trying out BZ on Seventh Day Adventists in staff?




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Dec  6 06:51:47 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:51:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:

> And a happy bomb day to you too CJ :-)
> Many happy _returns_ !!!


And last night was Guy Fawkes:

http://www.bonefire.org/guy/

Gunpowder and all.

DCF
----
"At least John Ashcroft protects tha 2nd Amendment Rights of aliens so he
hasn't tossed out the whole Constitution."




From obrienh at more.net  Thu Dec  6 07:57:02 2001
From: obrienh at more.net (Obrien, Haskell W.)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:57:02 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 


subscribe cypherpunks




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 15:03:06 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:03:06 +1100
Subject: minarchy wont work(attn.D.Honing)
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206100009.00a36eb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://home.onestop.net/nomad/Childs_Open_Letter_to_Rand.html

According to this...From:  http://world.std.com/~mhuben/critobj.html




From zozo at polyinter.com  Thu Dec  6 07:05:15 2001
From: zozo at polyinter.com (MG PUBLISHING)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:05:15 -0500
Subject: Subsidies, Grants, Loans, Financing and more
Message-ID: <200112061515.fB6FFms39581@cti06.citenet.net>




MG PUBLISHING
4865 HWY 138,R.R 1
ST-ANDREWS WEST
ONTARIO, KOC 2A0


PRESS RELEASE

CANADIAN SUBSIDY DIRECTORY YEAR 2001 EDITION
Legal Deposit-National Library of Canada
ISBN 2-922870-01-4

M.G. Publishing is offering to the public a revised edition of the Canadian
Subsidy Directory, a guide containing more than 1700 direct and indirect
financial subsidies, grants and loans offered by government departments and
agencies, foundations, associations and organizations.  In this new 2001 edition
all programs are well described.

The Canadian Subsidy Directory is the most comprehensive tool to start up a
business, improve existent activities, set up a business plan, or obtain
assistance from experts in fields such as: Industry, transport, agriculture,
communications, municipal infrastructure, education, import-export, labor,
construction and renovation, the service sector, hi-tech industries, research
and development, joint ventures, arts, cinema, theatre, music and recording
industry, the self employed, contests, and new talents.
Assistance from and for foundations and associations, guidance to prepare a
business plan, market surveys, computers, and much more!

To obtain the Canadian Subsidy Directory call one of the following distributors:

Fureteur: 450-465-5597
Canadian Publications 866-322-3376

To remove your e-mail from our mailing list contact us at: mgpubl at financier.com




From presgirls at hotmail.co.nu  Thu Dec  6 10:17:36 2001
From: presgirls at hotmail.co.nu (presgirls at hotmail.co.nu)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:17:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Presidential Class	
Message-ID: <200112061817.KAA27144@toad.com>


Warning- This message is intented for people over the age of 18.  If you are not delete this message now!

Click here to see girls that only the Presdident would have.

http://213.180.33.225/spg/1/
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or if this is not your style try out these Dizzy Girls!

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To remove send a blank email here- thepresidentsgirls at yahoo.co.ca




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 10:25:51 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:25:51 -0800
Subject: Reichstag 2001: who's vaccinated against anthrax? hmmm..
Message-ID: <3C0FB82F.F4ADDCAB@sarin.com>


>>The FBI has asked laboratories around the
country for records of workers vaccinated
against anthrax, as investigators pursue a
growing suspicion that whoever mailed the
anthrax-laden letters in New Jersey must
have taken extraordinary steps to avoid
dying in the process.<<
http://www.ctnow.com/news/yahoo/hc-anthrax1206.artdec06.story

Gosh, there's about 150,000 vaccinated, indoctrinated
people with CBW training, too.  They're called soldiers.

The Feds are totally, desparately, impotent, when they start
chasing scientists.  Hey, maybe they can start on dem sneaky ole
*chinese* scientists that they find so appetizing in a Dreyfus kinda
way.

>>But he cautioned that a combination of
skill, antibiotics and luck could have saved
the mailer from contracting the disease
without having had a vaccination.<<

---
Got Horse Blood Agar?




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec  6 10:29:40 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:29:40 -0800
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their 
  meds
In-Reply-To: <20011206113149.B10754@ils.unc.edu>
References: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com> <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:31 AM 12/6/01 -0500, Greg Newby wrote:
>But insisting
>on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
>is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
>it on his person or trying to put it in checked
>baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
>any problem if it was checked.

Just for the record you are still allowed to carry on a plane
personal smoking items, eg., a butane lighter.  You can't
use them of course, on US flights, but there is no
prohibition.  [A camping tank of butane fuel is a no-no]

I don't see how plant matter can be used as a weapon unless the
stems are waaay too big :-)




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec  6 10:33:17 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:33:17 -0800
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207045259.00a350b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011206103317.007cf840@pop.sprynet.com>


At 05:35 AM 12/7/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>Dave Honig wrote...Joe the nailmaker invests in a machine to make nails
faster
>than he can by hand. Who has he coerced?
>
>Who cares? its low level market and
> >trade


Well, I care about coercion; and you state that 'capitalism is coercion'.



>The implicit coercion is the protection racket of the state lurking in the 
>background and attempting to monopolies money.

Joe bought his machine in a mutually consenting transaction, no State
involvement.




From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec  6 07:44:26 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:44:26 -0500 (est)
Subject: Honest business opportunity reporting     1868
In-Reply-To: <15745j2B38r1R7H0qvJitBM1Hu2SReh8YVV77H6C4T@7aSjoGdRtOjLfk3z9kkH72DP1q4b68>
Message-ID: 


I almost never comment on spam, but this one is ridiculously funny!  :)

----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On 5 Dec 2001 265WdCLeC at nrigw01.index.or.jp wrote:

> Internet scams, con games, illegal pyramid schemes.
> There are so many business opportunities available on the internet,
> How do you know which one to pick?
> 
> Simple, Let us pick one for you!






From bmm at minder.net  Thu Dec  6 07:58:11 2001
From: bmm at minder.net (Brian Minder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:58:11 -0500
Subject: A little quiet in here....
In-Reply-To: <200112052143.fB5Lhjm18964@slack.lne.com>; from mikecabot@fastcircle.com on Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:46:19PM -0500
References: <200112052143.fB5Lhjm18964@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <20011206105811.B21271@waste.minder.net>


cypherpunks at minder.net lacks the subscriber-only filtering of lne.com, but
has been operational since February 1998.

Thanks,

-Brian

-- 
bmm at minder.net                                                1024/8C7C4DE9

On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:46:19PM -0500, mikecabot at fastcircle.com wrote:
> Hmmm.... no CDR traffic for about two days..... Toad is dead, 
> einstein.ssz.com seems off the 'Net completely, and lne.com is 
> deserted.
> 
> Conspiracy theorists, start your keyboards :)




From getnoticed at getfriction.org  Thu Dec  6 09:06:13 2001
From: getnoticed at getfriction.org (get some)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:06:13 -0600
Subject: get some for the holidays
Message-ID: <200112061705.JAA19974@toad.com>

 Check this out!



A cool new internet experience!
A great gift idea for the Holidays!



Go to getfriction.org and get in the action!
 

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From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 11:11:33 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 11:11:33 -0800
Subject: multicasting w/ cell phones (Acad ref)
Message-ID: <3C0FC2E4.891FDB93@sarin.com>


Integrated Multicast for Ad-Hoc Networks

The IMAHN project is investigating multicast protocols in ad-hoc
networks.
Ad-hoc networks are collections of mobile nodes communicating using
wireless media, without any fixed infrastructure.
Conventional routing is inadequate in these scenarios, as the mobility
aspect can cause rapid and frequent changes in
network topology. Moreover, each mobile host must be able to act both as
a network router and an endpoint, because
limited transmission ranges necessitate forwarding packets over multiple
hops.

Existing multicast protocols fall short because node mobility causes
conventional multicast trees to rapidly become
outdated. Frequent state changes require constant updates, reducing the
already limited bandwidth available for data, and
possibly never converging to accurately portray the current topology.

Instead, a stateless multicast protocol is proposed for the above
scenario. This is based on flooding the network with
packets of the multicast stream. Adaptive flooding is introduced to
enhance multicast reliability in the face of high
mobility.

http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~kumarv/imahn.html




From staff at wirelessdeveloper.com  Thu Dec  6 08:21:23 2001
From: staff at wirelessdeveloper.com (The WirelessDeveloper Team)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 11:21:23 -0500
Subject: Your WirelessDeveloper Password
Message-ID: <3BF2CB50000016A6@mail.wirelessdeveloper.com> (added by mail.wirelessdeveloper.com)


This email has been sent automatically by The WirelessDeveloper System

Username: cypherpunks at toad.com
Password: W5m5oiWiy5fG

Go to http://www.wirelessdeveloper.com/login.asp?email=cypherpunks at toad.com and enter your username and password to log on to the WirelessDeveloper site.

Thank You!
The WirelessDeveloper Team




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Dec  6 08:31:49 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:31:49 -0500
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their
  meds
In-Reply-To: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
References: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
Message-ID: <20011206113149.B10754@ils.unc.edu>


Has anyone here smoked any federally grown grass?
How does it compare to stuff you can buy on the
street?

The idea of getting approval from all states he
flew over (below) is clearly absurd.  But insisting
on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
it on his person or trying to put it in checked
baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
any problem if it was checked.

  -- Greg

On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 08:21:22AM -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
> 
>    Delta for Kicking Him off Flight Because He Was Carrying the Drug
>                           The Associated Press
>                          Published: Dec 6, 2001
> FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - A man who legally uses marijuana for
> medicinal purposes is suing Delta Air Lines for kicking him off a plane
> because he was carrying the drug.
> 
> Irvin Rosenfeld, a stockbroker from Boca Raton, filed suit Wednesday in
> federal court, claiming the airline violated federal protections for
> people with disabilities.
> 
> Rosenfeld, 48, suffers from a rare and painful bone disease and finds
> relief in smoking marijuana, which is prescribed by a doctor and grown
> for the government. Every day, he smokes up to 12 marijuana cigarettes
> to fight tumors.
> ...




From associates-recruit at amazon.com  Thu Dec  6 11:40:40 2001
From: associates-recruit at amazon.com (Lisa Lindberg, Amazon.com Associates Program)
Date: 6 Dec 2001 11:40:40 -0800
Subject: ADV: Amazon.com can help you get more from your Web site!
Message-ID: <.AAA-1739185-31824,3304.1007667640@mail-ems-102.amazon.com>

Greetings from Amazon.com! 

My name is Lisa Lindberg, and I'm from the Amazon.com Associates Program. 

The purpose of my letter is to promote the Amazon.com Associates Program to 
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Sincerely,

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Amazon.com Associates

You received this message because I think your site would make a great 
addition to our Associates program. I hope that this opportunity holds 
value for you. However, if you wish not to receive this type of mail from 
Amazon.com in the future, please reply to this mail with the word remove as 
the subject line.
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From ceo at newsletter.photopoint.com  Thu Dec  6 08:39:51 2001
From: ceo at newsletter.photopoint.com (ceo at newsletter.photopoint.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:39:51 -0400 (AST)
Subject: PhotoPoint Marketplace Update
Message-ID: <200112061639.fB6Gdpk26951@sdev10.photopoint.com>



=================================================================
Please note, this email is being sent to inform you of
important changes to your PhotoPoint account. Even if you have
opted out of promotional messages, we are required to contact
you regarding this important change.
=================================================================

Dear member:

We have encountered some technical difficulties and hope to have
prints, framed prints and photo gifts back online as soon as
possible.

We realize that you, our loyal customers, would like to order
prints and photo merchandise for the Holiday Season. In order to
provide this service to you, and ensure you get the same great
quality, we ask that you go to:

http://www.ezprints.com 

EZ Prints is a trusted partner and we are confident that they
will handle all your photo ordering needs, giving us time to get
our service operational again.

EZ Prints is a FREE service. You can join EZ Prints, upload your
photos and order photo merchandise quickly and easily. We realize
this may cause some inconvenience and frustration, as it does for
us. We sincerely apologize for this and assure you EZ Prints will
do their utmost to make your holiday photo gift-giving a reality.

Sincerely,

The PhotoPoint Family




From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 18:03:54 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:03:54 +1100
Subject: IP: FBI Reorganization Posted 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206125929.00a2c6e0@pop.useoz.com>


The death lists
by proffr1 at nospamfuckmicrosoft.com 5:47am Thu Dec 6 '01

Honeywell helped the phoenix program in 'nam and PROMIS stolen software 
helped round em up in guatamala and the old south africa.This mob just got 
80 million to be the next. http://www.csc.com.au/
here in Australia.

But first, a little background information about CSC. We are a full-scope, 
global IT services company. We pride ourselves on providing real solutions 
to customers' business problems. These solutions range from management 
consulting, systems development, systems integration to outsourcing. Our 
solutions are based on experience, innovation and total capability.

Being part of the global CSC offers our customers here access to some of 
the world's best people, processes, intellectual property and technology. 
We leverage the very best ideas and approaches from our worldwide industry 
verticals (such as Financial Services and Healthcare). We access those 
market-leading services from our global operations (like Outsourcing) to 
complement the regional and local relationships developed with our customers.

The DoD's Computer Investigations Training Program offered its first class, 
Introduction to Computer Search and Seizure, in September 1998. 
More...at... 
http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=9108&group=webcast   and 
www.cryptome.org of corse.




From getnoticed at getfriction.org  Thu Dec  6 11:05:06 2001
From: getnoticed at getfriction.org (get some)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:05:06 -0600
Subject: get some for the holidays
Message-ID: <200112061904.LAA28905@toad.com>

 Check this out!



A cool new internet experience!
A great gift idea for the Holidays!



Go to getfriction.org and get in the action!
 

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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Dec  6 10:27:20 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:27:20 -0500 
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their
  meds
Message-ID: 


I've not indulged, but I've heard of this program (my data is
several years old).

The Feds do have a farm (in kentucky? west virginia?) 
where a small amount of pot is grown under high security
for licensed researchers. IIRC, the marijuana
is graded, washed, mixed with tobacco(!?) as a filler, 
and rolled  on standard cigarette machines. The article
I read noted that some felt that the differences from a
'real' hand-rolled joint put research done using these
standardized doobies into doubt.

If Mr. Rosenfeld had put his legal joints into checked
luggage, there's a chance that a DEA dog would have
narced him out. Though he presumably would not have
gotten into trouble, it could be an enormous hassle. 

What I find curious is that the joints came to Delta's
attention at all. Maybe the packaging makes it clear
what they are. Anyway, Delta deserves whatever it
gets over this.

Peter Trei

> ----------
> Greg Newby[SMTP:gbnewby at ils.unc.edu] wrote:
> 
> 
> Has anyone here smoked any federally grown grass?
> How does it compare to stuff you can buy on the
> street?
> 
> The idea of getting approval from all states he
> flew over (below) is clearly absurd.  But insisting
> on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
> is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
> it on his person or trying to put it in checked
> baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
> any problem if it was checked.
> 
>   -- Greg
> 
> On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 08:21:22AM -0800, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:
> > 
> >    Delta for Kicking Him off Flight Because He Was Carrying the Drug
> >                           The Associated Press
> >                          Published: Dec 6, 2001
> > FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - A man who legally uses marijuana for
> > medicinal purposes is suing Delta Air Lines for kicking him off a plane
> > because he was carrying the drug.
> > 
> > Irvin Rosenfeld, a stockbroker from Boca Raton, filed suit Wednesday in
> > federal court, claiming the airline violated federal protections for
> > people with disabilities.
> > 
> > Rosenfeld, 48, suffers from a rare and painful bone disease and finds
> > relief in smoking marijuana, which is prescribed by a doctor and grown
> > for the government. Every day, he smokes up to 12 marijuana cigarettes
> > to fight tumors.
> > ...




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Dec  6 10:45:33 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:45:33 -0500
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their
  meds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com> <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20011206134532.B21255@ils.unc.edu>


On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 10:29:40AM -0800, David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 11:31 AM 12/6/01 -0500, Greg Newby wrote:
> >But insisting
> >on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
> >is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
> >it on his person or trying to put it in checked
> >baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
> >any problem if it was checked.
> 
> Just for the record you are still allowed to carry on a plane
> personal smoking items, eg., a butane lighter.  You can't
> use them of course, on US flights, but there is no
> prohibition.  [A camping tank of butane fuel is a no-no]

Of course!

BTW, this doesn't mean you can refill your zippo.  Every
year or so we hear about a plane that made an emergency
landing or arrested a passenger for bringing lighter
fluid (in a can) on board and refilling their lighter
en route.  Most of the airline magazines and other 
places that list prohibited substances are pretty 
explicit about lighter fluid being banned (yes, it's
OK if it's inside a disposable lighter).

> I don't see how plant matter can be used as a weapon unless the
> stems are waaay too big :-)

Ever seen a baseball bat :-)  ?

But smokable plant matter seems innocuous enough.  Next
thing, you won't be able to wear that hemp tie or shirt!
  -- Greg




From pcapelli at nsec.net  Thu Dec  6 10:47:27 2001
From: pcapelli at nsec.net (Peter Capelli)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:47:27 -0500
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their 
  meds
References: <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
  <20011206113149.B10754@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <00aa01c17e86$7426c5a0$01000100@diamondjoe>


    Yes, but every travel magazine, travel agent, and even the airlines tell
you not to put medications you rely on in your checked luggage, for fear of
losing them, or losing short-term access to them.  It's not like it would be
easy (legally anyway) to refill that prescription while on the road ...

-p

----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Newby" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their meds


> Has anyone here smoked any federally grown grass?
> How does it compare to stuff you can buy on the
> street?
>
> The idea of getting approval from all states he
> flew over (below) is clearly absurd.  But insisting
> on carrying smoking materials when smoking is prohibited
> is also absurd -- it doesn't say if he was keeping
> it on his person or trying to put it in checked
> baggage, but it seems unlikely he would have had
> any problem if it was checked.
>
>   -- Greg


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From mattd at useoz.com  Wed Dec  5 18:58:26 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:58:26 +1100
Subject: will the real capitalism please stand up
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206135241.00a2bd90@pop.useoz.com>


Tim may or a pretender wrote "The solution is obvious: capitalism. The
real one, not the fascist version."

Objectivism the real thing? How do you separate  fascism  from capitalism? 




From hakkin at sarin.com  Thu Dec  6 14:02:33 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:02:33 -0800
Subject: speak against the US, get investigated in AU
Message-ID: <3C0FEAF9.99157C8D@sarin.com>


http://www.smh.com.au/news/0112/07/text/national12.html

Shock as columnist investigated for un-American activity



Phillip Adams, defender of the rights of man, is in an unexpected spot
of bother, Pilita Clark reports.

It sounds too strange to be true.

Warren Beeby, the group editorial manager of News Ltd, publisher of The
Australian newspaper, says he can barely
believe it himself.

But yesterday he confirmed that one of the paper's better-known
columnists, the ABC broadcaster Phillip Adams, is
under investigation for alleged racial vilification by the Human Rights
and Equal Opportunity Commission.

Adams is such a vigorous opponent of racism, discrimination and all
manner of oppression that the Prime Minister once
famously urged the ABC to find a "right-wing Phillip Adams" to balance
its political output.

But Mr Beeby said an American citizen had complained to the commission
over a column Adams wrote in October
about Australia's "blank cheque" support of the United States's war
against terrorism.

In the column, Adams argued that US history was replete with racial
violence at home and flawed foreign policy abroad,
including the bombing of Cambodia, complicity with the Pinochet regime
in Chile and one-time support for Iraq's
Saddam Hussein.

"If Australia is to be a true friend of the American people, we must try
to rein them in, not urge them on," he wrote.
"The US has to learn that its worst enemy is the US."

Mr Beeby said the commission wrote to News Ltd in late November asking
for a response to a complaint it had received
about Adams and the column.

"We're in the process of replying on behalf of the newspaper and Phillip
is in the process of thinking what he will say as
well," he said.

Mr Beeby first raised the complaint, without naming Adams, in a speech
on press freedom to the Commonwealth Press
Union earlier this week.

He told the Herald yesterday he found it hard to believe the commission
could take such a complaint seriously. "I've
never heard of an American being racially vilified before. I think this
is one of the great tragedies of our time."

He said it was of deep concern to all Australian media organisations
when bodies such as the commission used their
powers to stifle debate critical to the public interest, such as Adams's
column.

"It was a clinically argued case, whether you agree with it or not, and
an important part of the debate about what is
going on, and suddenly it's racial vilification of Americans."

A spokeswoman for the commission said it never commented on complaints
before it. "All I can say is the normal
procedure for complaints is to ask for a response [from those being
complained about]. We would then examine the
complaint and if it is lacking in substance we would terminate it."

Phillip Adams could not be reached last night.




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Dec  6 11:14:10 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:14:10 -0500
Subject: What's Our National Identity? 
Message-ID: <3C0FC382.44760361@panix.com>


http://sierratimes.com/archive/files/dec/06/eddf120601.htm

What's Our National Identity?
By Duncan Frissell 12.06.01

Oracle's Larry Ellison and Harvard's Allen Dershowitz have been all over
the media recently pitching a National ID Card. One poll indicates 70%
public support for the notion.

Most critics of a National Identity Card mention Hitler, police stops,
and personal privacy to argue against the proposal.  Those are good
reasons to oppose a National ID Card, but they  miss the idea's worst
features.

Proponents of a National ID Card have a responsibility to tell us
exactly what the system will do to day-to-day life in America.  They are
unlikely to do so because most thoughtful Americans would be alarmed at
the prospect.

A National ID card is *not* really about identity. It is about
authorization.
...
When you present your National ID to complete a transaction, you will
actually be asking the Federal Government for its permission. It
converts most significant transactions that you make from private ones
to public ones. It creates a government license for all jobs, all
travel, all medical care, and many purchases. This is a profoundly
troubling departure from American traditions.
...

DCF
----
"War is Heck!"




From adam at homeport.org  Thu Dec  6 11:22:25 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:22:25 -0500
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and implementation
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011201140536.A27178@weathership.homeport.org> 
Message-ID: <20011206142225.A23125@weathership.homeport.org>


Raph, not Ralph.

The attack involved Alice and Bob giving opposite reputations to
Charlie, or Alice and Bob, both of whom you respect, giving very bad
reputations to each other.

Adam

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 11:38:53AM -0500, Sunder wrote:
| 
| Thanks for the pointer, a very good essay indeed. :)
| 
| I haven't checked in any meaningful way, but that thread doesn't seem to
| have any replies from Ralph...  Do you recall any details as to what would
| cause oscillations?  Would be interesting to explore this.
| 
| I expect that having a way to prove collusion by checking who praises
| whom, etc. would likely avoid such problems.  As would I suppose personal
| observation of current behavior.
| 
| Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
| positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
| I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
| quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
| least they're funny...)
| 
| 
| ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
|  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
|   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
| <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
|   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
|  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
| --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
| 
| On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:
| 
| > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:00:33PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
| > | 
| > | Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400.  Then
| > | I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so
| > | now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620.
| > 
| > Interesting idea.  I proposed something very similar in
| > http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00313.html Raph
| > demonstrated a bit later that the system could be forced into
| > oscilation and had other problems, although that might have been in
| > person, not on list.
| > 
| > Adam
| > 
| > -- 
| > Imminent death of the list predicted.  Film already in the
| > archives, 11/95. 
| > 
| > 
| > 
| > 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From adam at homeport.org  Thu Dec  6 11:23:23 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:23:23 -0500
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and implementation
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011201140536.A27178@weathership.homeport.org> 
Message-ID: <20011206142322.B23125@weathership.homeport.org>


PS: Raph is the one who later created avogato, with a simpler
reputation system.  I can't recall if he talks about these schemes in
his writings on reputation.

Adam

On Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 11:38:53AM -0500, Sunder wrote:
| 
| Thanks for the pointer, a very good essay indeed. :)
| 
| I haven't checked in any meaningful way, but that thread doesn't seem to
| have any replies from Ralph...  Do you recall any details as to what would
| cause oscillations?  Would be interesting to explore this.
| 
| I expect that having a way to prove collusion by checking who praises
| whom, etc. would likely avoid such problems.  As would I suppose personal
| observation of current behavior.
| 
| Say for instance Mr. Measels manages to accumulate quite a large sum of
| positive repcap, if he spews a bunch of the lame ass CJ knockoff messages,
| I suspect most people would adjust their cached repcap's of him pretty
| quickly - At least I would.  (CJ did/does write kooky messages, but at
| least they're funny...)
| 
| 
| ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
|  + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
|   \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
| <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
|   /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
|  + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
| --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
| 
| On Sat, 1 Dec 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:
| 
| > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 05:00:33PM -0500, Sunder wrote:
| > | 
| > | Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400.  Then
| > | I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so
| > | now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620.
| > 
| > Interesting idea.  I proposed something very similar in
| > http://cypherpunks.venona.com/date/1994/09/msg00313.html Raph
| > demonstrated a bit later that the system could be forced into
| > oscilation and had other problems, although that might have been in
| > person, not on list.
| > 
| > Adam
| > 
| > -- 
| > Imminent death of the list predicted.  Film already in the
| > archives, 11/95. 
| > 
| > 
| > 
| > 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 12:29:14 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:29:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Remailer "Reliable" (fwd)
Message-ID: 



Please respond directly to the person asking for aid...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:45:43 +0100 (CET)
From: "[iso-8859-1] Madeleine Katchert" 
Reply-To: austin-cpunks at ssz.com
To: maddyka2001 at yahoo.de
Subject: The Remailer "Reliable"

Do you know of anyone who knows how to set up the
program "Reliable"?

__________________________________________________________________
Nokia 5510. Verr�cktes Design! Toller Sound! 
Entdecke und gewinne es auf http://de.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ 
Gewinnspiel endet am 16. Dezember 2001.




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Dec  6 15:04:19 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:04:19 -0800
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their 
  meds
In-Reply-To: <20011206134532.B21255@ils.unc.edu>
References: <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>
  <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com> <3C0F9B01.BFFF8F9A@sarin.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011206102940.007c9900@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011206150419.007af100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 01:45 PM 12/6/01 -0500, Greg Newby wrote:
>
>BTW, this doesn't mean you can refill your zippo.  Every
>year or so we hear about a plane that made an emergency
>landing or arrested a passenger for bringing lighter
>fluid (in a can) on board and refilling their lighter
>en route.  

My favorite story was the LA gangster who freaked over the
fact that he was carrying PCP in baby bottles so he poured them on
the seat.  He was arrested and the seat pads replaced.

He might have been sampling the wares, one suspects.

Happened inside the last year, departing from LAX.




From adam at homeport.org  Thu Dec  6 12:16:26 2001
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:16:26 -0500
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20011130162857.A16247@weathership.homeport.org>  <20011201131904.A26804@weathership.homeport.org>  <20011202181740.A7089@weathership.homeport.org> 
Message-ID: <20011206151626.A23635@weathership.homeport.org>


On Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 07:54:43PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

| > | Just to sort of thrash things a bit, in a capital markets
| > | transaction, an exchange isn't such a hard thing to do, in the
| > | sense that a secondary bearer-form asset transaction (primary is
| > | like an IPO, or, for cash, a collateral asset conversion like an
| > | ATM
| > | transaction), cash for bond, say, would require the participation
| > | of the underwriters in the exchange protocol.
| > [...]
| > | At primary issuance, a trustee is involved, so, that probably
| > | supervises the Underwriter, who ever it is owns the underwriting
| > | engine. The above should hold for all kinds of unique, uncopyable
| > | things, teleoperated surgery, or opinions, for instance.
| >
| > A nym is none of these.
| 
| I'm not so sure. If you create a nym as a unique entity which has
| control of keys which control assets, the word "unique" points to
| bearer-instrument protocol of some kind. A stock-exchange seat comes
| to mind. You don't want to sell multiple copies of a key, for
| instance, at least for lots of interesting uses.

What is the unique entity seperate from its key?  You can't have a pen 
legally controlling your stock exchange seat, so how can a keypair?

You can use a keypair to show control (like a chop), but I'm unaware
of anywhere the instrument is considered to have control.

| 
| > | For "software", in the Gary Becker sense of something that can be
| > | copied, all we're really looking for is something which
| > | authenticates that a given copy of an information good is in fact
| > | signed by the person proported to be the "author" of that
| > | information/content/code. Coupled with a decent third-party
| > | time-signature mechanism, you're fine, because, after the first
| > | copy, such a good is a purely fungible commodity ala Hughes'
| > | "Institutional Piracy", or the Agoric guys' "digital silk road",
| > | or my "recursive geodesic auction" stuff. Such situations are
| > | classic examples of so-called "perfect competition", as found in
| > | physical graded-commodity markets everywhere.
| >
| > So here's the rub.  A nym (as I'm using the term) is control over a
| > private key thats associated with some reputation, which Alice is
| > trying to sell to Bob.  Alice can not provide direct assurance that
| > she won't keep copies of the thing she's selling.
| 
| Which means, you need a different protocol for selling them. I think
| you walked away too soon from the idea of a nym as a financial
| instrument, a contingent claim of some kind. Title to assets, at the
| very least, plus or minus "goodwill", for lack of a better word. I
| *think* it's part of the definition of a firm, in the Coasean sense
| of a collection of assets that are worth more together because they
| can transfer the value of those assets for more competitive advantage
| internally than the firm gets if those assets are sold into the
| market directly.

Nyms don't have assets.  People and legal fictions have assets.

| > Through intermediaries, Bob can buy some insurance that the
| > revocation  games Alice can play are limited.
| 
| See, you're talking about finance already :-). Insurance is a
| contingent claim on assets based on external events. Remember how
| they called program trading of various derivatives "portfolio
| insurance" once apon a market crash?

All men are Socrates.

I can buy insurance against the value of things without needing to
allow those things to own other things.  For example, I have this fine 
diamond ring, which is insured.  I have this fine .jpg of Bill and
Monica, which is not insurable, because it is copyable.  Neither my
diamond ring, nor my jpg, may own property.

| > How valuable that insurance is
| > depends on the trustworthiness of the intermediaries, how likely
| > the reliant parties are to properly check signatures, and the value
| > of social engineering in a field where process issues are not yet
| > well understood.  (See also
| > http://www.seifried.org/security/articles/20011023-devil-in-details.
| > html)
| 
| Say 'amen', somebody...
| 
| > There might be a relationship here to the sale of music bits; the
| > RIAA  is all worked up over issues of how do they sell the same
| > bits over and over.  If you can answer the question of "How to sell
| > a set of bits exactly once?" you may be able to answer the question
| > "How to ensure that I don't keep a copy of those bits?" or "How do
| > I sell a million people copies of the same bits without them
| > transferring them around."
| 
| First of all, I think that music shouldn't be copy controlled,
| because it's "software", in the pure Beckerian sense of something
| that can be copied, and, on the net it can be copied for almost
| nothing, something that probably makes Coase smile, somewhere, which
| was my point about commodity markets for information.

So, how does music differ from a key?  Its all bits, and those bits
are easier to create than musical bits.

| The part about selling something once is what Chaum did already with
| DigiCash. The mint keeps a copy of the first "note", and, if another
| one crosses the transom, the key of the counterfeiter is revealed.
| Anyone who takes the cash offline, without the participation of the
| underwriter, deserves what he gets if the cash is double-spent,
| right?
| 
| I think the apparatus for selling nyms is there already. Like I said
| before, all we need is an exchange protocol, something, like price
| discovery, has already been solved by lots of people (Micali has one,
| for instance, though I'm not sure how good it is because I'm not
| qualified to examine it), so we just have to find the best one.

And why can't we apply those to music?

Adam



-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Thu Dec  6 07:34:23 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:34:23 +0000
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
References: 
Message-ID: <3C0F8FFF.31F7DA81@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> > And a happy bomb day to you too CJ :-)
> > Many happy _returns_ !!!
> 
> And last night was Guy Fawkes:

Eh?

array zero-origin  error!

"Remember, remember the fifth of *November* " as the old rhyme goes.
Last night was the fifth of December.

 
> http://www.bonefire.org/guy/
> 
> Gunpowder and all.

And that "bonefire" site killed my browser.


Ken  Brown


Here's a full version as used at Lewes in Sussex (the only county where
Bonfire is properly celebrated!).  I guess when they bring in all their
silly new laws such verses will be illegal.


Remember,Remember
The Fifth of November,
Gunpowder treason and plot;
I see no reason
Why Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.

Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes,
'Twas his intent
To blow up the King and the Parliament;
Three score barrels of powder below
Poor old England to overthrow;
By God's providence he was catch'd
With a dark lantern and burning match.

Holler boys, holler, make the bells ring,
Holler boys holler, God Save the King! 

A penny loaf to feed the Pope,
A farthing O' cheese to choke him,
A pint of beer to rinse it down,
A faggot of sticks to burn him!

Burn him in a tub of tar,
Burn him like a blazing star.
Burn his body from his head.
Then we'll say old Pope is dead!
Hip, hip, Hooray!




From 1.10198689.-18 at multexinvestornetwork.com  Thu Dec  6 13:04:33 2001
From: 1.10198689.-18 at multexinvestornetwork.com (Multex Investor)
Date: 6 Dec 2001 16:04:33 -0500
Subject: MortgageIT, Loan or Refinance Now!
Message-ID: <0f54a33042106c1MINLIST4@multexinvestornetwork.com>

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From sunder at sunder.net  Thu Dec  6 13:05:12 2001
From: sunder at sunder.net (Sunder)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:05:12 -0500 (est)
Subject: Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and
  implementation
In-Reply-To: <20011206142225.A23125@weathership.homeport.org>
Message-ID: 


But that's not a problem as that's a small set of players.  You also have
several hundred others who give positive or negative repcaps to Alice,
Bob, Charlie, Doug, Eddie, Frank, Jenny, etc and to each other.

If two people have a bitch out, that's not going to affect them in a
positive way.  If Alice and Bob give opposite repcaps to Charlie, they'll
cancel each other out, so repcaps from Doug, Eddie Frank, Jenny would
provide a closer look.

It would be a very rare thing to have a 50/50 postive/negative repcap.


----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Raph, not Ralph.
> 
> The attack involved Alice and Bob giving opposite reputations to
> Charlie, or Alice and Bob, both of whom you respect, giving very bad
> reputations to each other.
> 
> Adam




From bjonkman at [24.42.38.77]  Thu Dec  6 13:44:29 2001
From: bjonkman at [24.42.38.77] (Bob Jonkman)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:44:29 -0500
Subject: A note to virus authors
In-Reply-To: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
Message-ID: <3C0FA06D.23129.2ABD649@localhost>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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From ENTER.YOUR.USERNAME.HERE at bournemouth.ac.uk  Thu Dec  6 08:56:02 2001
From: ENTER.YOUR.USERNAME.HERE at bournemouth.ac.uk (ENTER YOUR USERNAME HERE)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 16:56:02 +0000
Subject: legislation in antartica?
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011206165602.0099db48@athena.bournemouth.ac.uk>






From 722953jack2002 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  6 17:07:22 2001
From: 722953jack2002 at hotmail.com (722953jack2002 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:07:22
Subject: 7624           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  229537
Message-ID: <200112060808.fB688vp26366@ak47.algebra.com>


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From 72362jack2002 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  6 17:07:23 2001
From: 72362jack2002 at hotmail.com (72362jack2002 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:07:23
Subject: 496           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  23627
Message-ID: <200112060821.CAA01530@einstein.ssz.com>


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From 724125jack2002 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  6 17:07:24 2001
From: 724125jack2002 at hotmail.com (724125jack2002 at hotmail.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:07:24
Subject: 1000           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  241257
Message-ID: <200112062121.NAA04849@toad.com>


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Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:07:24
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Subject: 5496           Would you like to lose weight while you sleep?                  246877
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From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Dec  6 17:57:52 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 17:57:52 -0800
Subject: US seeks to force feed pilot it tricked, detained 
Message-ID: <3C10221F.35997914@cdc.gov>


U.S. Seeks Force-Feeding Order for Fasting Detainee in Phoenix
Courts: The unusual step involves a Middle Eastern pilot protesting his
jailing in a dragnet. He
faces identity fraud charges.

http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000097083dec06.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation

                    By RICH CONNELL, TIMES STAFF WRITER

                    Federal prosecutors in Phoenix are asking a judge to
issue an unusual
                    order to force-feed a hunger-striking Middle Eastern
pilot arrested on
                    charges stemming from the investigation of the Sept.
11 terrorism
                    attacks.

                    Malek Mohamed Seif, also known as Malek Mohamed
Abdulah, is
                    protesting what he contends is his improper
detention as part of the
                    global anti-terrorism dragnet.

                                                            Taking only
                                                            liquids,
Seif has
                                                            lost 30
pounds
                                                            since his
October
                                                            arrest and
is
                                                            rapidly

deteriorating,
                                                            officials
said. Seif,
                                                            36, believed
to
                                                            be a
Djibouti
                                                            national,
has
                                                            acknowledged
a
                                                            passing
                                                            acquaintance
with
                                                            one of the
                                                            suspected
                                                            skyjackers.

                    He also trained at the same Phoenix area flight
school as an Algerian
                    pilot suspected of helping prepare some of the
hijackers, according to
                    federal investigative records.

                    But the only charges filed to date against Seif are
for identity fraud. A
                    federal judge recently stressed in a court order
that no evidence has
                    been presented linking him to terrorism.

                    Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who is housing
Seif for federal
                    authorities, says he is getting worried about his
high-profile inmate. "I
                    don't want this guy to die in my jail," said the
no-frills lawman who
                    made headlines by housing prisoners in desert tents
and making them
                    wear pink shirts. Arpaio says he has been talking
with Seif, trying to
                    coax him to eat.

                    As a compromise, Arpaio said, he removed pork from
Seif's meals.
                    But he has declined to fill his special requests for
dates and ice water.
                    "I said, 'We don't have room service.' "
Seif's attorney, Thomas Hoidal, reported to a judge Monday that his
                    client was in the jail infirmary and too weak to
attend a hearing.

                    Seif, who left the U.S. before the attacks, has
complained that federal
                    investigators duped him into returning to answer
questions. After he
                    landed in Phoenix on Oct. 25, he was arrested for
allegedly making
                    false statements on federal forms to obtain dual
identities.

                    "He doesn't understand, when he came back
voluntarily, why he is
                    being treated in this fashion," said Hoidal, who
also is trying to
                    persuade Seif to eat.

                    Prosecutors expect to file additional bank and
financial fraud charges
                    against Seif and are worried he may be unfit to
stand trial. They are
                    seeking medical and psychiatric evaluations of Seif.

                    One veteran U.S. law enforcement official in Phoenix
said he knew of
                    no other instance when federal prosecutors there
sought a
                    forced-feeding order.

                    Sporadic hunger strikes have been reported among the
more than
                    1,000 detainees rounded up in the anti-terrorism
crackdown. But Seif,
                    who has dropped from about 180 to about 150 pounds,
appears to
                    have lasted the longest.

                    It is not clear whether Seif intends to fight the
forced feeding order, his
                    attorney said. A hearing is scheduled for today.
Arpaio doubts a
                    judge's order will be effective, as long as Seif
remains conscious. "If
                    he's still coherent . . . you can't force the guy to
eat if he says he
                    doesn't want to."

                    In another development Wednesday, a coalition of 16
civil liberties
                    groups filed suit against the Justice Department,
demanding information
                    about those arrested and detained since the Sept. 11
attacks. The groups said they were seeking
                    such information as the names of the detainees, the
charges against them and how long they have
                    been held.

                    Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft has argued that some of the
information must be kept secret to aid in the
                    investigation.

                    Kate Martin of the Center for National Security
Studies, a plaintiff in the case, said that instead of
                    federal officials "simply announcing that they are
respecting the Constitution, we need evidence that
                    will show whether that is true."




From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Dec  6 18:02:59 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 18:02:59 -0800
Subject: slavery in New Jersey
Message-ID: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov>


Complete with soccer-mom revolutionaries and "obligatory contracts"...

I suppose this is what you get for working for the state, eh?


http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000097073dec06.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation

MIDDLETOWN, N.J. -- On Saturday, the Middletown High School
South Tigers won the state football championship. On Monday, their
head coach went to jail.

Coach Steve Antonucci was among 135 striking schoolteachers and
secretaries behind bars by day's end Wednesday, and the number is
expected to swell as nearly 900 continue to defy a judge's order to get
off the picket line and into the classroom.

                                                            The five-day

                                                            strike and
jailings
                                                            have torn
this
                                                            otherwise
                                                            average
                                                            American
                                                            suburban
                                                            community in

                                                            two.
Favorite
                                                            kindergarten

                                                            teachers,
drama
                                                            coaches and
                                                            others who
have
                                                            always seen
                                                            themselves
as
                                                            normal,
                                                            law-abiding
folks
                    are being led to jail sobbing or defiantly
denouncing the local school
                    board and residents. "This town ought to be ashamed
of itself," said
                    Lauren Spatz, a second-grade teacher. "The parents
don't care about education. . . . It's not going
                    to be the same ever again. The teachers' morale is
going to be shot."

                    But parents and administrators say the teachers'
timing couldn't be worse, with layoffs at nearby
                    computer firms and families still shaken by the
death of more than 30 local residents in the World
                    Trade Center attacks.

                    And there is no end in sight.

                    "It's become a war," said plain-spoken,
chain-smoking school Supt. Jack DeTalvo, shortly before
                    getting on the phone to give instructions to the
board's attorney about how to garner the best
                    coverage on local evening news shows.

                    One thing all sides agree on: If and when the
contentious job action ends, the bitterness could leach
                    into the classroom.

                    The strike has left 10,500 students out of school in
this sprawling suburb of 70,000 an hour and a
                    half south of New York City. With record-breaking
warm weather, the days off are a treat for the
                    children but a hardship for working parents, who
range from truck drivers to Wall Street
                    investment brokers.

                    In addition, state law dictates that all missed
school days are made up at the end of the year.

                    Teachers counter that a few days of inconvenience is
minor compared to being hauled off in
                    handcuffs.

                    "I'm a soccer mom, I drive a van and I have a dog,"
science teacher Katie Connelly said with a
                    rueful laugh as she sat waiting to go to jail. "But
this is our revolution. . . . The only way you get
                    respect is if you stand up for yourself."

                    Dispute Over Who Pays Health Benefits

                    At the heart of the dispute is a demand by the
school board that the union members pay a
                    percentage of rising health benefits instead of a
flat annual fee of $250. The strikers angrily respond
                    that they will end up having to pay up to $600 extra
for benefits, which would effectively cancel
                    out wage increases. The teachers have been offered
pay raises of 3.8%, 4% and 4.2% over three
                    years.

                    The teachers went on strike for a short time three
years ago. They said the board at that time had
                    ignored the recommendations of a fact-finder and
instead imposed a contract on them that, by law,
                    they said they had to accept. This time, the union
is calling for binding arbitration, which the school
                    board has refused, insisting that the teachers
return to class first.





From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec  6 01:03:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 20:03:08 +1100
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206200007.009f8880@pop.useoz.com>


Coercion is implicit in all capitalism above low level market and 
trade.Makes AP essential to introduce digital cash?




From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec  6 18:17:55 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:17:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Duncan Frissell wrote:

> http://www.bonefire.org/guy/

That's a *great* site!  I can't believe it's been there since 1996 and I
never found it.  Thanks!

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From mv at cdc.gov  Thu Dec  6 20:19:52 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 20:19:52 -0800
Subject: yank view of Guy Fawkes day
Message-ID: <3C104367.B2B712D3@cdc.gov>


At 08:17 PM 12/6/01 -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
>> http://www.bonefire.org/guy/
>That's a *great* site!  I can't believe it's been there since 1996 and
I
>never found it.  Thanks!

Sounds like a distributed, conservative brit version of Burning Man
with Independence-day replacing the Mardi Gras aspect.

Cool.




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Thu Dec  6 20:49:07 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:49:07 -0800
Subject: Suit shuts down Indian Trust for security upgrade  (was Re: Slashdot | U.S. Department of Interior Ordered Offline)
In-Reply-To: <3C104363.4B828BFE@ssz.com>; from ravage@ssz.com on Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 10:19:47PM -0600
References: <3C104363.4B828BFE@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011206204907.Z26617@navel.introspect>

on Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 10:19:47PM -0600, Jim Choate (ravage at ssz.com) wrote:
> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/07/0223216.shtml

That's pretty poor reporting even for the combination of Choate &
Slashdot.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011205/pl/indian_money_2.html

    Wednesday December 5 8:27 PM ET
    Judge Shuts Down Indian Trust System

    By ROBERT GEHRKE, Associated Press Writer

    WASHINGTON (AP) - A judge acted Wednesday to protect hundreds of
    millions of dollars in a government-run trust fund for American
    Indians that has been found to be at risk of security breaches.

    The emergency order came a day after a report detailed how easily a
    court-appointed investigator was able to hack into the accounting
    system at the Interior Department and manipulate financial data. The
    government computer system is essentially a bank that manages $500
    million a year in royalties from land owned by 300,000 American
    Indians.

    But U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth said that Interior's system
    had no firewalls to prevent intrusions, systems to detect hackers,
    or auditing methods to determine if account information had been
    manipulated.

    ``You don't expect a thief to leave a calling card?'' Lamberth asked
    Justice Department (news - web sites) attorney Matt Fader.

    Fader said Interior Secretary Gale Norton had already ordered all
    Internet access to the system terminated while firewalls are
    installed.

Naturally, the private sector does far better.  I couldn't think of a
California pension management company that had similarly poor data
security procedures.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From infomacao at giganetstore.com  Thu Dec  6 13:06:13 2001
From: infomacao at giganetstore.com (infomacao at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:06:13 -0000
Subject: As ideias do Rudolfo !
Message-ID: <08aca13062106c1WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com>










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accountants - we don't and cannot shave statistics.
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turnover volumes
- Wires or checks sent anywhere in the world in USD

If you require further information please contact webmaster at bigbagsofcash.com

http://www.bigbagsofcash.com






From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Thu Dec  6 22:05:52 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:05:52 -0800
Subject: slavery in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <20011207053924.11980.qmail@sidereal.kz>; from
  drevil@sidereal.kz on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:39:24AM -0000
References: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov>
  <20011207053924.11980.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: <20011206220552.B27220@navel.introspect>


on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:39:24AM -0000, Dr. Evil (drevil at sidereal.kz)
wrote:
> Could people on this list please learn to format stories that they
> post here so we can read them?  How hard could that be?

Unfortunately, the usual response is for Tim May to take a bead on you
for being altruistic and helpful to humanity.

I've taken to reflowing stuff locally.  My bounces to list were not well
received.

--
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 20:19:47 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:19:47 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | U.S. Department of Interior Ordered Offline
Message-ID: <3C104363.4B828BFE@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/07/0223216.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 20:22:49 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:22:49 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | The Age of Paine Revisited
Message-ID: <3C104419.C24E16FD@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/features/01/12/04/1737234.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 20:24:02 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:24:02 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | War Driving With The Kids
Message-ID: <3C104462.941E16DA@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/06/1248209.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Thu Dec  6 20:25:59 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:25:59 -0600
Subject: The Register - Europe told to rethink e-privacy directive
Message-ID: <3C1044D7.40206303@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23234.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From l8051 at mail.yahoo.co.jp  Thu Dec  6 20:43:46 2001
From: l8051 at mail.yahoo.co.jp (l8051 at mail.yahoo.co.jp)
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:43:46 -0500
Subject: Ice, Snow, Cold, who needs it                         31321
Message-ID: <0000587c51ca$00003462$00007a59@slo.net>

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From measl at mfn.org  Thu Dec  6 22:07:51 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:07:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: slavery in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <20011207053924.11980.qmail@sidereal.kz>
Message-ID: 



Karsten, haven't you got better things to do?


On 7 Dec 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> Date: 7 Dec 2001 05:39:24 -0000
> From: Dr. Evil 
> Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com
> To: mv at cdc.gov
> Cc: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Subject: CDR: Re: slavery in New Jersey
> 
> Could people on this list please learn to format stories that they
> post here so we can read them?  How hard could that be?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Dec  7 00:42:13 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:42:13 -0800
Subject: A note to virus authors
In-Reply-To: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011207003537.031b4ec0@idiom.com>


At 02:31 PM 12/05/2001 -0800, Alfred Qaeda wrote:
> >>"The subject line says 'Hi' and will be from someone you know,"
>Symantec security response group manager Kevin Haley said. "The
>text will say 'How are you? I saw this screensaver and immediately
>thought of you.' That's a giveaway."<<
>
>Authors, How can you put so much effort into writing cool virii
>and do such an amateur job on the social engineering?

I was surprised how effective such an amateur job was;
my corporate email system was pounded into the ground for
a couple of days.  Unless I'm misunderstanding the descriptions of this thing,
it didn't fire up automagically just from opening the message
or using the MSOutlook Preview Pane function -
it had to convince a sucker to actually run the file,
either by clicking on it or by saving it and running it.
Perhaps the descriptions have been incorrect?

Of course, one of the problems of Outlook-style mail systems
is that they often have mailing lists that hit the whole company,
or at least sets of tens of thousands of people, and this does seem
to do a good job of trolling for those lists, and continually pounding
once it starts, so it only takes a small number of suckers for it to explode.
I received a few thousand copies that I was aware of;
after I put a mail filter on my machine, there were probably
a few thousand more.

Of course, the quickly installed filters that our mail admins used
trashed all messages with "hi" in the Subject line,
even if it was in the middle of words like "behind" or "chief" :-)




From declan at well.com  Thu Dec  6 22:26:40 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 01:26:40 -0500
Subject: "How To Classify My Item" -- new Commerce Dept course
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011207012431.0230e7c0@mail.well.com>


http://www.bxa.doc.gov/Seminars/washdcsem_120701.html

U.S. Department of Commerce -
Bureau of Export Administration
Outreach and Educational Services Division
Presents:

        "How To Classify My Item"

Washington, D.C.
December 7, 2001

This program is for all levels of expertise on export
control issues and will answer questions such as:
  why BXA controls exports
  types of controls
  how to determine the classification of your product
[...]




From petro at bounty.org  Fri Dec  7 01:51:10 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 01:51:10 -0800
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
In-Reply-To: <3C0CC6BB.8F5FE723@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, December 4, 2001, at 04:51 AM, Ken Brown wrote:
> An Metet wrote:
>>> Havenco's talked for a while about metastasizing,
>>> putting servers in a bunch of places for reliable fast performance
>>> for non-critical data and mainly keeping the critical database parts
>> There are persistent rumors that Havenco does not really host anything 
>> on the platform, all bits are on dry land with VPN pipes to the 
>> platform, so that it looks off-shore hosted.
>> In other words, the platform is a decoy, storage-wise.
>
> Server hosting is now a boring, commodity business.   You needs some
> marketing ploy to get mindshare from potential customers.
>
> The kind of people who decide where their company's servers are to be
> hosted are often the kind of people who used to make plastic models of

	No, the kind of people who decide where a company's servers are 
going to be hosted are often the same people who write the check for 
that service--the bean counters. With input from Bus-dev and Manglment.

> military hardware when they were kids. Who have coffee-table books about
> planes with lots of pointy bits. Maybe even ones who read Bruce Sterling
> novels. They also like to think that their data is Really Important.

	And no, I don't have coffee table books.

	And yes, my data is important. It helps generate my pay-check (not 
that I would use Havenco for a colo, my data is important, but we don't 
have that threat model).

--
"Remember, half-measures can be very effective if all you deal with are
half-wits."--Chris Klein




From Tell.Us at newsletter.tide.com  Fri Dec  7 02:10:21 2001
From: Tell.Us at newsletter.tide.com (Tide Neighbor to Neighbor)
Date: Fri,  7 Dec 2001 05:10:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Win $2500 of furniture from Bounce!   
Message-ID: 

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From nobody at talley.remailer.org  Thu Dec  6 21:30:45 2001
From: nobody at talley.remailer.org (Talley Anonymous Remailer)
Date: 7 Dec 2001 05:30:45 -0000
Subject: [Reformatted] CERT DoS'd
References: <3C0FABEB.AD612EB3@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 


hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20011205/tc/national_computer-security_site_attacked_1.html

> National computer-security site attacked
>
> By Robert Lemos CNET News.com
>
> The Computer Emergency Response Team's Coordination Center, an
> important national clearinghouse for computer-security information,
> came under attack Wednesday, leaving its main Web site only
> intermittently reachable.
>
> The so-called denial-of-service attack didn't affect the group's
> ability to push security incident information to its members, but made
> public access to its sites a crapshoot.
>
> "We are working with our service providers to resolve this problem,"
> Bill Pollak, public relations coordinator for the CERT Coordination
> Center, said in a statement.
>
> A denial-of-service attack can take one of two forms: a flood of data
> that overwhelms the Web server or the bandwidth leading to the server,
> or a specific command crafted to disable critical servers or Internet
> routers. The CERT Coordination Center (news - web sites) would not
> identify which type matched the attack it was suffering from.
>
> The group, based at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Penn.,
> coordinates the communications among the myriad response teams
> scattered among U.S. universities, companies and government agencies.
>
> It has public Web sites to inform both members and non-members of
> threats but also has private networks capable of alerting members to
> high-priority computer-security incidents.
>
> Officials at the CERT Coordination Center would not give details
> of the attack but earlier acknowledged that such attacks are not
> uncommon. In May, the group suffered a similar attack.
>
> "We get attacked every day," Richard D. Pethia, director of the
> Networked Systems Survivability Program at Carnegie Mellon's Software
> Engineering Institute, said in a May interview. "The lesson to be
> learned here is that no one is immune to these kinds of attacks. They
> cause operational problems, and it takes time to deal with them."
>
> The CERT Coordination Center is part of Carnegie Mellon's Software
> Engineering Institute.




From anon at remailer.ukf.net  Thu Dec  6 21:34:50 2001
From: anon at remailer.ukf.net (Anonymous)
Date: 7 Dec 2001 05:34:50 -0000
Subject: [Reformatted] state governors want to design OSes now..
References: <3C0FAA6A.C1E65FAD@sarin.com>
Message-ID: 


hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin) writes:

> [ If I were Bill G. I'd double the price of an OS sold to one of these
> States. Since I'm not, but still resent these States, I hope they get
> all the Windows OS they deserve. ]

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011205/tc/microsoft_settlement_dc_1.ht
ml

> States May Ask for Unbundled Version of Windows
>
> By Peter Kaplan
>
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - State attorneys general pressing the antitrust
> case against Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) may ask a judge to
> order the company to offer a cheaper, stripped-down version of its
> Windows operating system, a source familiar with the case said on
> Wednesday.
>
> The nine states still suing Microsoft are eying the requirement as
> part of a proposed antitrust remedy they are scheduled to submit to
> U.S. District Court Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly on Friday.
>
> Requiring an ``unbundled'' version of Windows is one of several ideas
> the states are considering as they try to come up with sanctions that
> will be tougher than those agreed to by Microsoft, the U.S. Justice
> Department (news - web sites) and nine of the other states who have
> signed on to a settlement of the case.
>
> The draft remedy also would strike down a long list of loopholes in
> the current settlement deal and do more to ensure that Microsoft
> discloses key source code in Windows to other software makers, the
> source said.
>
> The draft also contains a provision that would require Microsoft to
> include Sun Microsystems Inc.'s (Nasdaq:SUNW - news) Java programming
> language in its new Windows XP (news - web sites) operating system
> and ensure that its Office software is compatible with other software
> platforms, the source said.
>
> Microsoft had included Java in its operating system for years but
> dropped it from Windows XP because of legal problems with Sun
> Microsystems.
>
> Lawyers representing the hold-out states held meetings today with
> antitrust experts and industry officials to get feedback on a draft
> remedy proposal, sources said.
>
> 'GETTING AN EARFUL'
>
> ``They're getting input from lots of different players, and they're
> getting an earful,'' the source said.
>
> The hold-out states are California, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa,
> Florida, Kansas, Minnesota, West Virginia and Utah.
>
> Representatives of those states declined to comment on what kind of
> remedy they will propose.
>
> In addition, the draft remedy proposal would require Kollar-Kotelly to
> appoint a ``special master'' to oversee the remedy, according to the
> same source.
>
> Under the current settlement, that task would go to a three-person
> technical committee.
>
> ``I think they're seriously committed to getting an effective
> remedy,'' said another source who has met with the attorneys general
> lawyers.
>
> The hold-out states will present their remedy proposal as an
> alternative to the settlement reached by the Justice Department.
>
> In the settlement, Microsoft has agreed to take steps to give computer
> makers more freedom to feature rival software on their machines. The
> deal also requires the company to share parts of the inner workings of
> its Windows operating system with other software makers.
>
> The settlement would be enforced by a three-person technical committee
> and would stay in effect for at least five years.
>
> The department says the existing settlement terms are strong enough to
> stop the company's monopolistic practices and would provide ``the most
> effective and certain relief in the most timely manner.''
>
> ABUSED MONOPOLY
>
> A federal appeals court ordered the remedy hearings in a June 28
> ruling, having concluded that the company abused its monopoly in
> personal computer operating systems.
>
> Continuing to litigate could drag the case out for another two years,
> the department says.
>
> But Microsoft rivals and some consumer groups have panned the deal as
> weak and ineffectual. They say the agreement will not stop Microsoft
> from retaliating against personal computer makers that promote
> non-Microsoft software.
>
> Critics also worry the settlement does not ensure that Microsoft will
> allow a level playing field for other companies' add-on ``middleware''
> products; and does not ensure that Windows will work well with
> computer servers running non-Microsoft software.
>
> Kollar-Kotelly has scheduled a hearing for March to determine what--if
> any--further--sanctions should be imposed against the company.
>
> Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler declined to comment specifically on
> what might be in the remedy proposal on Friday. But he said the
> settlement ``represents a fair and reasonable compromise'' and that
> the case had been ``drastically narrowed'' by the appeals court since
> the original ruling against the company last year.




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec  6 10:35:59 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 05:35:59 +1100
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207045259.00a350b0@pop.useoz.com>


Dave Honig wrote...Joe the nailmaker invests in a machine to make nails faster
than he can by hand. Who has he coerced?

Who cares? its low level market and
 >trade

The implicit coercion is the protection racket of the state lurking in the 
background and attempting to monopolies money.
Best fought with anarchism.Now jamesd;

"Coercion is implicit in all capitalism above low level
 > market and trade.
Nonsense.
If you do not like one guy's prices or wages, you can go to
another, or start your own business"

  Again:Who cares? its low level market and
 >trade

"Without property rights, the specialization of labor has to
take place by something very like a state telling people what
they must do, and what they may consume. Thus to suppress
capitalism requires centralized terror, and lots of it.
Nothing less will suffice. Been tried."

Without property rights enforced by coercion by even the most minimal state 
using stone axes and spears.
Again best fought by anarchism.
Property rights may ebb and flow in a free society not a capitalist force 
propped society.How else are we to digitize the ' mass hallucination of 
money without anarchism? Something never really been given a fair 
go.Centrally directed terror is an obvious feature of modern capitalism.Do 
you suggest its about to wither away?

"And indeed that terror is a large part of the attraction of
socialism. Observe the popularity among socialists of books
by those who have murdered helpless captives. Many
socialists even name their ideology after mass murderers, for
example Trotskyists. One can hardly imagine some faction of
neo-nazis naming themselves after one of Hitler's more
prominent goons."

No one enjoys bashing authoritarian 'socialists' more than I,james,but its 
getting off topic.Crypto anarchy.
Not cryptocapitalism.Remember? Famous anarchist Bakunin predicted the 
murderous folly that bourgeois marxism would lead to.
Marx was an capitalist along with engels all his life.Show me some 
anarchist mass murderers.There must be one,somewhere on your site.Its pure 
straw man to try and mix anarchy with marxist-leninism.

"Similarly, when socialists celebrate great moments in
socialist history, it is not the heroic battles they recall,
but the murder of the helpless and powerless -- for example
they recall not the last days of the Paris commune, but the
first. "

James is flirting with hate speech here,I dont know what socialist soirees 
james attends,possibly national socialist.
Libertarian socialists celebrate much about the commune and mourn much.Way 
off topic now,like its a manichean thing with you james? You are either for 
capitalism or your a cold war era commie?Thats your consistent response.Its 
old.

"Similarly observe how the Soviet Union, Mao's china, and the
rest ceased to be loved when the terror ceased. When the
terror in the Soviet Union was in full flow, it was described
a glorious paradise where the concept of a policeman was
strange and unknown. When the terror eased, then they
started to describe it as regrettably wicked, but nonetheless
a much lesser evil than the USA. "

You've  really lost me now james,Is that the secret? Baffle them with 
bushit? Is it fun in your bubble boy world?




From drevil at sidereal.kz  Thu Dec  6 21:39:24 2001
From: drevil at sidereal.kz (Dr. Evil)
Date: 7 Dec 2001 05:39:24 -0000
Subject: slavery in New Jersey
In-Reply-To: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov> (mv@cdc.gov)
References: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <20011207053924.11980.qmail@sidereal.kz>


Could people on this list please learn to format stories that they
post here so we can read them?  How hard could that be?

Thank you.




From noreply at cypherpunks.to  Thu Dec  6 20:52:16 2001
From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 05:52:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [Reformated] slavery in New Jersey
References: <3C102352.1FDD4CF5@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <0695bc962a32910776fe329c37a2b114@cypherpunks.to>


mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola ret) writes:

> Complete with soccer-mom revolutionaries and "obligatory contracts"...
>
> I suppose this is what you get for working for the state, eh?
>
>
> http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000097073dec06.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation
>
>
> MIDDLETOWN, N.J. -- On Saturday, the Middletown High School South
> Tigers won the state football championship. On Monday, their head
> coach went to jail.
>
> Coach Steve Antonucci was among 135 striking schoolteachers and
> secretaries behind bars by day's end Wednesday, and the number is
> expected to swell as nearly 900 continue to defy a judge's order to
> get off the picket line and into the classroom.
>
> The five-day strike and jailings have torn this otherwise average
> American suburban community in two.
>
> Favorite kindergarten teachers, drama coaches and others who have
> always seen themselves as normal, law-abiding folks are being led
> to jail sobbing or defiantly denouncing the local school board
> and residents. "This town ought to be ashamed of itself," said
> Lauren Spatz, a second-grade teacher. "The parents don't care about
> education. . . . It's not going to be the same ever again. The
> teachers' morale is going to be shot."
>
> But parents and administrators say the teachers' timing couldn't be
> worse, with layoffs at nearby computer firms and families still shaken
> by the death of more than 30 local residents in the World Trade Center
> attacks.
>
> And there is no end in sight.
>
> "It's become a war," said plain-spoken, chain-smoking school Supt.
> Jack DeTalvo, shortly before getting on the phone to give instructions
> to the board's attorney about how to garner the best coverage on local
> evening news shows.
>
> One thing all sides agree on: If and when the contentious job action
> ends, the bitterness could leach into the classroom.
>
> The strike has left 10,500 students out of school in this sprawling
> suburb of 70,000 an hour and a half south of New York City. With
> record-breaking warm weather, the days off are a treat for the
> children but a hardship for working parents, who range from truck
> drivers to Wall Street investment brokers.
>
> In addition, state law dictates that all missed school days are made
> up at the end of the year.
>
> Teachers counter that a few days of inconvenience is minor compared to
> being hauled off in handcuffs.
>
> "I'm a soccer mom, I drive a van and I have a dog," science teacher
> Katie Connelly said with a rueful laugh as she sat waiting to go to
> jail. "But this is our revolution. . . . The only way you get respect
> is if you stand up for yourself."
>
> Dispute Over Who Pays Health Benefits
>
> At the heart of the dispute is a demand by the school board that the
> union members pay a percentage of rising health benefits instead of
> a flat annual fee of $250. The strikers angrily respond that they
> will end up having to pay up to $600 extra for benefits, which would
> effectively cancel out wage increases. The teachers have been offered
> pay raises of 3.8%, 4% and 4.2% over three years.
>
> The teachers went on strike for a short time three years ago. They
> said the board at that time had ignored the recommendations of a
> fact-finder and instead imposed a contract on them that, by law, they
> said they had to accept. This time, the union is calling for binding
> arbitration, which the school board has refused, insisting that the
> teachers return to class first. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Thu Dec  6 11:01:27 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 06:01:27 +1100
Subject: Jamesd-david Honig:Good cop,bad cop
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207055615.009f9a80@pop.useoz.com>


http://world.std.com/~mhuben/libindex.html  especially 
http://www.spunk.org/library/otherpol/critique/sp000713.txt

A little hirstory for ya'all. Ya'all come back now,y'ear.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Dec  7 04:45:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 06:45:40 -0600
Subject: The Register - Public marketplaces out, private marketplaces in
Message-ID: <3C10B9F4.5FFB0A8E@ssz.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/23/23242.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Dec  7 04:48:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 06:48:26 -0600
Subject: Japan Broke U.S. Code Before Pearl Harbor, Researcher Finds
Message-ID: <3C10BA9A.E3552CA6@ssz.com>


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-120701codes.story
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From p24589 at chaiyo.com  Fri Dec  7 04:14:24 2001
From: p24589 at chaiyo.com (p24589 at chaiyo.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 07:14:24 -0500
Subject: White sandy beaches
Message-ID: <00001c036635$00007ce4$00005333@miesto.sk>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 1440 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Dec  7 08:00:42 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:00:42 -0800
Subject: codetalkers get some press 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011207080042.007d2100@pop.sprynet.com>


Last night the local SoCal TV news had some Navajo
codetalkers on the tube, and (today? weekend?) they
will be feted at a parade.  Supposedly hollywood
will be milking their accomplishments in a movie soon.

All part of Pearl Harbor (tm) hoo-hah.




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Dec  7 08:01:48 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:01:48 -0800
Subject: IP-FLASH Office XP, Windows XP May Send Sensitive
  Documents  toMicrosoft (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011207080148.007d48c0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 02:04 PM 12/7/01 +0100, Eugene Leitl wrote:
>Subject: IP-FLASH Office XP,
>     Windows XP May Send Sensitive Documents to Microsoft
>
>PROBLEM: Microsoft Office XP and Internet Explorer version 5 and later are
>configured to request to send debugging information to Microsoft in the
>event of a program crash. The debugging information includes a memory dump
>which may contain all or part of the document being viewed or edited. This
>debug message potentially could contain sensitive, private information.

Maybe they got bored in Redmond when Sircam started going down...





 






  







From mv at cdc.gov  Fri Dec  7 08:18:14 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:18:14 -0800
Subject: Masks to be illegal in U.K.
Message-ID: <3C10EBC6.6D55B557@cdc.gov>


Removal of disguises  data fodder for CCTV

Clause 93 would insert a new section 60AA into the Criminal Justice and
Public Order Act 1994.  It  would allow police to remove any facial
coverings or disguises in a specified area for 24 hours following the
order of a senior police officer.  There is no provision for sensitivity
regarding religious articles.

http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/atcsbill.htm

-----
What do you expect from a spongy-brained sheeple that tolerates laws
prohibiting ownership of information?




From mv at cdc.gov  Fri Dec  7 08:32:39 2001
From: mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola (ret))
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:32:39 -0800
Subject: Power Grab 2001: "Criticizing Ashcroft is aiding the enemy"
Message-ID: <3C10EF26.E013160@cdc.gov>


             http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAEI966YUC.html

 Ashcroft Says Those Questioning Administration's Anti-Terror Plan Could
                            Be Aiding Enemy
                 By Karen GulloAssociated Press Writer
                         Published: Dec 7, 2001
WASHINGTON (AP) - Attorney General John Ashcroft said trying Taliban
members in open U.S. court could create "Osama TV." He defended military
tribunals for terrorists and suggested that anyone who criticized them
was aiding the enemy.

Our legal powers are targeted at terrorists," he told the committee. "To
those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my
message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our
national unity and diminish our resolve."


White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said Friday that criticism can
hurt the anti-terrorism fight if it
undermines anti-terrorism legislation pushed by the administration.

"The attorney general's implication is clear. If you do not march in
lock step with the government, you are supporting the terrorists," the
Center for National Security Studies said in a statement.


-----
Got polychrome methylene blue?




From obrienh at more.net  Fri Dec  7 07:02:37 2001
From: obrienh at more.net (Obrien, Haskell W.)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:02:37 -0600 
Subject: More damage to liberty than I expected.
Message-ID: 


>	No, the kind of people who decide where a company's servers are 
>going to be hosted are often the same people who write the check for 
>that service--the bean counters. With input from Bus-dev and Manglment.

Very True.  At one of my former companies, the bean counters tried to pay
exodus to host the companies web server.  The company is an ISP that sells
co-lo service!




From jamesd at echeque.com  Fri Dec  7 09:18:13 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:18:13 -0800
Subject: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207045259.00a350b0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C108955.21186.2F966F3@localhost>


    --
On 7 Dec 2001, at 5:35, mattd wrote:
> The implicit coercion is the protection racket of the state
> lurking in the background and attempting to monopolies
> money.

Money in the US was largely privately issued until 1915.

Capitalism long predates government monopolies of money.

The word dollar comes from thaler, which a government stamped
ounce of silver -- but stamped by a minor government very far
away, one of many such stamping authorities.

James A. Donald:
> > Without property rights, the specialization of labor has
> > to take place by something very like a state telling
> > people what > they must do, and what they may consume.
> > Thus to suppress capitalism requires centralized terror,
> > and lots of it. Nothing less will suffice. Been tried."

mattd:
> Without property rights enforced by coercion by even the
> most minimal state

The state is the enemy of property, not the source.  Property
rights in the means of production not only continued to exist
without state support, where the state was absent, they
invariably continued to exist in the face of massive bloody
state violence aimed at crushing those rights.  Always, those
seeking to crush those rights had to escalate far beyond what
they expected, then escalate the violence even further.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     MRwFqhIB+qkA4W1vMk/7uvu4yQqZo01QBY934d0T
     4fiMl7/h0c4yVNTogn2WQL0VXfpYDXkzLG40B4rb4




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Dec  7 08:30:12 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:30:12 -0700
Subject: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly ( was  Masks to be illegal in U.K. )
Message-ID: <3C10EE94.10FDF8D2@lsil.com>


smallpox wrote :
>
> Removal of disguises data fodder for CCTV
>
> Clause 93 would insert a new section 60AA into the Criminal Justice
and
> Public Order Act 1994.  It  would allow police to remove any facial
> coverings or disguises in a specified area for 24 hours following the
> order of a senior police officer.  There is no provision for
sensitivity
> regarding religious articles.
>
> http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/atcsbill.htm
>
The Good : religion is placed on equal footing with everyone else - it's
time tpo end preferential treatment.

The Bad   : a government thinking for even a moment that dress codes are
under its jurisdiction.

The Ugly  : those who should be wearing masks to protect their fellow
citizens sensibilities will not be able to.

Mike




From ericm at lne.com  Fri Dec  7 09:58:36 2001
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:58:36 -0800
Subject: A note to virus authors
In-Reply-To: <1007734171.9524.23.camel@jubei>; from
  will.morton@irmplc.com on Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 02:09:31PM +0000
References: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
  <1007734171.9524.23.camel@jubei>
Message-ID: <20011207095836.A2011@slack.lne.com>


On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 02:09:31PM +0000, Will Morton wrote:
> 
> 	I always thought that the best strategy would be to look through all
> mail folders, find the last email received from the target, and use the
> subject from that, adding 'Re: ' at the start. Delete the body of the
> mail and replace it with one of several variations along the lines of 'I
> thought this might be helpful:  Just click
> 'OK' when the dialog box pops up.'
> 
> 	That would get most PHBs I know...

One of the recent worms did exactly this.  I can't remember which one,
but it also set the From_ line to _victim at host.com, i.e.  it added a
leading '_' character.  I'm still getting them (but on linux
they don't do anything).

This is the same worm that installed a keyboard sniffer.  The
log was emailed to an account somewhere and of course that account
was quickly shut down.

The worm author should have encrypted the logs and posted
them to alt.anonymous.messages or some other newsfroup instead.
That would have been truly dangerous, especially if the worm
was stealthy.


> 	I'm not a VB programmer, but I assume that sort of functionality is
> available from the Outlook COM object (or ActiveX object, or .NET Web
> Service, or whatever the hell it's called now :>)

It's properly called the Email Worm Author's Toolkit.

Eric




From hakkin at sarin.com  Fri Dec  7 09:58:44 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:58:44 -0800
Subject: US adopts piracy as policy
Message-ID: <3C110354.7D2C879C@sarin.com>


WASHINGTON (Reuters) -
U.S.-led forces have warned
shippers to cooperate with
maritime searches for al Qaeda fighters fleeing Afghanistan
(news - web sites) by sea or risk being sunk, defense
officials said on Friday.

        The U.S. Fifth Fleet and coalition forces are monitoring
        commercial vessels in the North Arabian Sea, ``particularly
        those operating off the Pakistani coast'' in the hunt for
        Saudi-born extremist Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)
        and members of his al Qaeda network, as well as fighters of
        the collapsing Taliban militia that formerly ruled
        Afghanistan, a defense official said.

        ``Anyone suspected of assisting or transporting bin Laden
        and/or al Qaeda leadership should expect to be boarded and
        will risk the sinking or seizure of the vessel and will be
        detained and jailed,'' the defense official said.



http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011207/ts/attack_military_ships_dc_2.html




From jet at spies.com  Fri Dec  7 12:43:23 2001
From: jet at spies.com (j eric townsend)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:43:23 -0800
Subject: Monkeywrenching airport security
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011117174122.007c27b0@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <200111171846.fAHIkfv19229@mailserver1.hushmail.com>
  <3.0.6.32.20011117174122.007c27b0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


At 17:41 -0800 2001/11/17, David Honig wrote:
>I've wondered about that too; airport sniffers must have encountered
>Miracle Gro and angina nitro during the early days, measuring
>a false alarm rate.  Shooting is scary; you could contaminate
>your car driving back from the range, then contaminate your
>travel gear.

About a year ago I got on a plane and flew cross country with an 
empty .22LR case wedged in the cleats of my boots.  I discovered it 
in the hotel while polishing my boots (had a wedding to attend the 
next morning) and was amused.

I guess they'd pick that up now, and I'd spend a few hours in the 
back with nurse ratchet and a box of rubber gloves.
-- 
J. Eric Townsend -- http://www.spies.com/jet

Were you in USASSG/ACSI/MACV in Vietnam, 1967-1970?  Drop me a line if so...




From frissell at panix.com  Fri Dec  7 10:26:12 2001
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:26:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: codetalkers get some press 
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011207080042.007d2100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


"Windtalkers" from John Woo and MGM.  Due out June 14th 2002.

DCF

On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> Last night the local SoCal TV news had some Navajo
> codetalkers on the tube, and (today? weekend?) they
> will be feted at a parade.  Supposedly hollywood
> will be milking their accomplishments in a movie soon.
>
> All part of Pearl Harbor (tm) hoo-hah.




From kpj at sics.se  Fri Dec  7 04:32:33 2001
From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 13:32:33 +0100
Subject: Delta airlines doesn't allow sick person to carry their
  meds 
In-Reply-To: Message from Greg Newby   of "Thu, 06
  Dec 2001 13:45:33 EST." <20011206134532.B21255@ils.unc.edu> 
Message-ID: <200112071232.NAA09747@color.sics.se>


It appears as if Greg Newby  wrote:
|  
|I don't see how plant matter can be used as a weapon unless the
|stems are waaay too big :-)

FYI: Certain sub-species of cannabis form very hard and compact stems,
which are excellent material for bludgeons. One can easily break bones
with a single hit with this light-weight weapon.

But it's not a smoking material.




From baptista at pccf.net  Fri Dec  7 10:35:26 2001
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:35:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RUSSIAN POLICE ARREST GANG TRYING TO SELL URANIUM
Message-ID: 



Russian police say they have arrested seven members of an organized 
crime gang after they tried to sell about one kilogram of uranium to 
undercover officers. 
FULL STORY:
http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/view?/news/2001/12/06/uranium011206

... and only a few days ago we were discussing this sort of thing.  Fancy
that.

I would be interested to know if american broadcasters pick this up.

There is not much detail in the story.  They failed to report what type of
uranium it was - U-235?  If anyone has more details on this please advise.

regards
joe baptista

-- 
Joe Baptista

http://www.dot-god.com/

The dot.GOD Registry, Limited




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Fri Dec  7 05:04:47 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:04:47 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP-FLASH Office XP, Windows XP May Send Sensitive Documents toMicrosoft (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.lrz.de/~ui22204
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 07:59:49 -0500
From: David Farber 
To: ip-flash 
Subject: IP-FLASH Office XP,
     Windows XP May Send Sensitive Documents to Microsoft

PROBLEM: Microsoft Office XP and Internet Explorer version 5 and later are
configured to request to send debugging information to Microsoft in the
event of a program crash. The debugging information includes a memory dump
which may contain all or part of the document being viewed or edited. This
debug message potentially could contain sensitive, private information.

PLATFORM:

·       Microsoft Office XP
·       Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 and later
·       Windows XP
·       Microsoft has indicated that this will be a feature of all new
Microsoft products

DAMAGE: Sensitive or private information could inadvertently be sent to
Microsoft. Some simple testing of the feature found document information in
one message out of three. SOLUTION: Apply the registry changes listed in
this bulletin to disable the automatic sending of debugging information. If
you are working with sensitive information and a program asks to send
debugging information to Microsoft, you should click Don't Send.

http://www.ciac.org/ciac/bulletins/m-005.shtml





From will.morton at irmplc.com  Fri Dec  7 06:09:31 2001
From: will.morton at irmplc.com (Will Morton)
Date: 07 Dec 2001 14:09:31 +0000
Subject: A note to virus authors
In-Reply-To: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
References: <3C0EA02D.C8D3F708@bora.org>
Message-ID: <1007734171.9524.23.camel@jubei>


On Wed, 2001-12-05 at 22:31, Alfred Qaeda wrote:
>
> Include a hundred different, likely sounding subject lines (encrypted
> of course, but you knew that).   A single constant subject line is *so*
> easy to warn
> against.  You are defeated by word of mouth and a little medium-term
> memory.
> Exceed the human memory requirements, gentlemen.   You'll have a better
> chance of a truly inspiring piece of electronic performance art.
>

	I always thought that the best strategy would be to look through all
mail folders, find the last email received from the target, and use the
subject from that, adding 'Re: ' at the start. Delete the body of the
mail and replace it with one of several variations along the lines of 'I
thought this might be helpful:  Just click
'OK' when the dialog box pops up.'

	That would get most PHBs I know...

	I'm not a VB programmer, but I assume that sort of functionality is
available from the Outlook COM object (or ActiveX object, or .NET Web
Service, or whatever the hell it's called now :>)

	W

--
	"Sometimes the Eloi really get on my nerves"

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Dec  7 17:29:15 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:29:15 -0800
Subject: : Re: Real capitalism falling down drunk
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208060025.00a38ce0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011207172915.007d8550@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:17 AM 12/8/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>jamesd...
>"Money in the US was largely privately issued until 1915.
>Capitalism long predates government monopolies of money.
>The word dollar comes from thaler, which a government stamped
>ounce of silver -- but stamped by a minor government very far
>away, one of many such stamping authorities."
>
>Very interesting,relevant, not much,but fascinating.Can we talk of e-money 
>replacing the present shared hallucination now?

God DAMN but you are obtuse.  

First people swapped chickens for goats.

Then they used more portable forms of exact trade, where
the portable forms were still of equal value, but easier to pocket.

Eventually this got (partially) symbolic, but was private.
With reps and all that.

Then the govt discovered they could fund wars (etc) by asserting
their paper was good ---after all, they could confiscate by
force whatever actual value they needed to back it up.

If you don't see the implications for future history, you 
may find many threads here confusing.




From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Fri Dec  7 10:35:55 2001
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:35:55 +0000
Subject: Masks to be illegal in U.K.
References: <3C10EBC6.6D55B557@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: <3C110C0B.67F8C011@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>


"Major Variola (ret)" wrote:
> 
> Removal of disguises  data fodder for CCTV
> 
> Clause 93 would insert a new section 60AA into the Criminal Justice and
> Public Order Act 1994.  It  would allow police to remove any facial
> coverings or disguises in a specified area for 24 hours following the
> order of a senior police officer.  There is no provision for sensitivity
> regarding religious articles.
> 
> http://www.blagged.freeserve.co.uk/ta2000/atcsbill.htm
> 
> -----
> What do you expect from a spongy-brained sheeple that tolerates laws
> prohibiting ownership of information?

Get your DMCA accepted as unconstutional then say that...




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Dec  7 16:59:08 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:59:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
In-Reply-To: <20011202104350.B73534@neutraldomain.org>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Gabriel Rocha wrote:

> I know trying to educate you to the ways of the world is a futile
> effort, but I can't resist sometimes. How does my great wonderful
> reputation reduce the cost of doing business with me? 

Ask your bank with regard to loans, for example. Once I got the info in
their computers and 'vetted' my 'reputation' to their satisfaction they
now loan me sums of money with nothing more than a drivers license & an
account number (which I only have to say) I don't even have to sign a
document.

Ask the gas station which uses the new pumps that use credit and debit
cards.

Ask your grocer about all those nifty 'discounts' if you will put yourself
in their database.

and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on ... ...

> It may well give me more business, but certainly not chaper business.

See above.

> I don't care how reliable you are, if you start skimping on security your
> reliability goes down in my book. --Gabe

It is the LEVEL or EXTENT of the security. There is not a single state of
'security'.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From measl at mfn.org  Fri Dec  7 17:18:32 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:18:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RIAA Cracks Down After Taliban Ousted (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:17:09 -0700
From: xxxx
To: yyyy
Subject: RIAA Cracks Down After Taliban Ousted

http://bbspot.com/News/2001/11/riaa.html


Kabul, Afghanistan - The Recording Industry Association of 
Afghanistan (RIAA) has begun a major crackdown on pirated 
music since the Taliban fell from power 2 days ago, and
launched their own bid for control in the war torn city. 
Many cheered the fall of the Taliban, but the RIAA feels 
that if music can be listened to that copyrights will be 
violated. 

Soon after the Taliban fled Kabul, black market Qamar Gul 
and Ahmad Zahir CDs were being openly peddled on street 
corners. Rumors of Abdullah Muqri MP3s circulating on the 
Kabul computer were widespread.

"It was much easier to control music piracy when the Taliban 
was in control. Now we fear that with their new found freedom 
the people of Kabul and in the rest of Afghanistan will turn 
to copyright violation to satisfy their musical needs," said 
RIAA President Ghulam Hotak. "An RIAA lead country will be 
able to enjoy the joys of music, but only if artist are 
properly compensated."

Opposition groups denounce the RIAA power grab. "We will fight 
to the last man to keep the RIAA from power in Afghanistan," 
said General Mahommed Dawood of the Northern Alliance. "We did 
not unseat the Taliban only to have them replaced by a more 
oppressive regime."

The Recording Industry Association of America has pledged 
support to the RIAA by offering troops from its elite piracy 
fighting Freedom Squad. "We can not sit idly by and watch the 
people of Afghanistan violate copyrights. Our brothers in the 
RIAA need our support," said Hilary Rosen.

EOF




From judgerainer at msn.com  Fri Dec  7 13:58:15 2001
From: judgerainer at msn.com (judgerainer at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:58:15 -0200
Subject: legal info.                         21483
Message-ID: <200112070917.RAC00265@ns.sdmmiec.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3876 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From mean-green at hushmail.com  Fri Dec  7 20:33:09 2001
From: mean-green at hushmail.com (mean-green at hushmail.com)
Date: Fri,  7 Dec 2001 20:33:09 -0800
Subject: WSJ again touts 802.11 as an emerging open solution to wireless
Message-ID: <200112080433.fB84X9G88193@mailserver2a.hushmail.com>


High-Tech Hobbyists Develop
Internet Links for the 'Masses'
By PUI-WING TAM and SCOTT THURM
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


ASPEN, Colo. -- Jim Selby clambered up a ladder onto the roof of a
four-story office building here to survey his little alternate empire.


"I've got one on top of there," he said, pointing to a distant rooftop, "and
one there, too." Mr. Selby was speaking of all the gray antennas dotting the
skyline, broadcasting Internet access all over town. The service is fast and
free, which makes Mr. Selby, who put up the towers, a bit of a
revolutionary.


"I've got Aspen nailed!" says Mr. Selby, 35 years old, as he gestures at a
dozen antennas atop low-rise buildings. "I've opened the network up to the
masses."


Some of the nation's big corporations have racked up billions of dollars in
losses trying to bring high-speed Internet access to all who might want it.
But the 6-foot-4 Mr. Selby, an avowed ski bum, is doing it in his own small
way with a combination of Russian military-surplus antennas and electronic
parts from a hardware store. His antennas allow anyone in a 45-square-mile
area around Aspen with a computer and a $120 plug-in card to surf the Web
over the airwaves free at speeds 30 times as fast as with a standard modem.


Mr. Selby is a wireless guerrilla, one of several hobbyists around the
nation who are building shoestring wireless networks out of such materials
as potato-chip cans and rubber hoses. They are doing so by piggybacking free
of charge on the premium high-speed Internet connections that telecom and
cable companies provide to many homes and businesses for as much as $1,000 a
month. Even so, Mr. Selby, who eventually aims to charge for access to his
network, says he hasn't encountered any resistance from providers of such
high-speed links, who don't seem worried about his plans.


Mr. Selby and fellow guerrillas now operating in cities such as New York,
Portland, Ore., and Seattle are defying the conventional wisdom that
building high-speed networks is complex and costly. Their secret is a
technology known in technical lingo as 802.11b, or Wi-Fi. It was never
intended for public Internet access. Using the same unlicensed radio
spectrum as microwave ovens and baby monitors, it was designed primarily to
transmit signals for 300 to 400 feet in wireless corporate computer networks
and from a phone line to a laptop. But history is full of unscripted
uprisings just like this, in which people take an existing technology off
the shelf and put it to an unanticipated use.


It doesn't take much time or money to set up an 802.11b network. "All that's
involved is a simple geek factor," says Bruce Potter, a wireless guerrilla
in Leesburg, Va., who estimates it cost him $500 in cables, wireless cards
and other equipment to create a wireless node atop his house. "I've built
three or four other antennas so far using Pringles cans, and that cost me
about $4."


Many of the guerrillas have adopted a crusading tone about their work. "I
want bandwidth to be as free as air," says Rob Flickenger, who founded a
free wireless network in Sebastopol, Calif. Bandwidth is the capacity to
carry data; broadband is used to describe connections that are faster than
conventional modems. Kevin Rich, a Denver-based proponent of free wireless
networks, adds: "We want to make it a people's movement."


Wireless guerrillas could face trouble from their own Internet-service
providers for allowing nonsubscribers to tap in, but so far nobody has
bothered them because of the small number of users involved. Shaun Gilmore,
executive vice president of Qwest Communications International Inc., which
provides local phone service and high-speed Internet access in Aspen, says
the wireless guerrillas are "creative people developing creative ways" to
make high-speed Internet access available. Building an 802.11b network to
piggyback on a high-speed Internet line is "not technically illegal," Mr.
Gilmore says in a statement, but adds that it can slow the Internet
connection.


Mr. Selby began investigating wireless technologies a few years ago. Through
word of mouth, he found a wireless-equipment supplier in Solon, Ohio, from
whom he bought two surplus Russian military antennas for a total of $700. At
an Aspen hardware store, he picked up a length of rubber hose to protect the
wiring. Then he placed the antennas, which he nicknamed "the Ruskis," on an
office building owned by some friends and atop his own townhouse.


When Mr. Selby flipped the switch in August 1999, not much happened. "We
didn't know squat," he says. But after making a few adjustments, he had a
faint signal between his house and the office building. His friends' office
was connected to a T-1 line, a direct, high-speed link to the Internet. He
had created wireless coverage in a 13-block area. That gave him an idea: Why
not deliver the Internet to everybody in town?


Mr. Selby quickly sold his house in Detroit and plowed $80,000 into
broadening the network. He began scouting out locations for other antennas.
Last year, a former high-tech executive who lived in a mountaintop home gave
him permission to put up an antenna in exchange for free wireless service.
That increased the network's wireless coverage by five square miles. Mr.
Selby soon made the same barter deal with other mountaintop residents.


Word of the free network began spreading. Bill Gurley, a partner at
Benchmark Capital, a Silicon Valley venture-capital firm, and Sky Dayton,
founder of Internet-service provider Earthlink, unexpectedly tapped into Mr.
Selby's network while in Aspen for a conference earlier this year. Mr.
Dayton opened his laptop in his hotel room and found he could choose from
four guerrilla wireless networks, including Mr. Selby's, to reach the
Internet. "I was floored," Mr. Dayton says.


Other entrepreneurs are launching companies to offer small-scale Internet
access via 802.11b in airports, hotels and coffee shops. And some think the
technology could be harnessed to offer commercial high-speed Internet access
to homes and offices. These developments could conceivably spell trouble for
long-delayed "third-generation" cellphone networks, which are to offer
high-speed data services in addition to voice.


Security is an issue, as some companies using 802.11b discovered when
hackers tapped their corporate networks. Mr. Dayton says he can detect a
neighbor's 802.11b network when he logs on at his Los Angeles home. You
can't prevent people from picking up the signal, which is why Mr. Dayton
sees his neighbor's network, but you can encrypt the traffic so they can't
read it. Most experts think the problem can be circumvented.


For the past few months, Mr. Selby has been concentrating on scraping
together more cash to expand the network, which he says has attracted about
70 free users, including 10 regulars. He plans to augment his 13 antennas
with three more by the end of the year. To raise cash, he sold the wireless
network in August for $120,000 to a small Aspen company called Broadband
West. Mr. Selby, who still runs the network, says he and Broadband West hope
to start charging an unspecified fee for the wireless access sometime next
year. When the network shows up on somebody's laptop, the person will be
directed to a Web page and asked to provide a credit-card number and pay a
fee.


Write to Pui-Wing Tam at puiwing.tam at wsj.com and Scott Thurm at
scott.thurm at wsj.com




From kmself at ix.netcom.com  Fri Dec  7 23:53:14 2001
From: kmself at ix.netcom.com (Karsten M. Self)
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:53:14 -0800
Subject: MD5 (was Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions)
In-Reply-To: ; from gil_hamilton@hotmail.com on Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:45:49PM +0000
References: 
Message-ID: <20011207235314.B31477@navel.introspect>

on Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:45:49PM +0000, Gil Hamilton (gil_hamilton at hotmail.com) wrote:
> Karsten Self writes:
> >on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:12:53PM -0800, Tim May (tcmay at got.net) wrote:
> >
> > > Some interesting tips (bottome of this message) for detecting FBI/SS
> > > snoopware that NAI/McAfee is now assisting the FBI in installing.
> > >
> > > I especially like the idea of "type hundreds of random key strokes and
> > > see which files increase in size." (Or just look for any file size
> > > changes, as most of us type tens of thousands of keystrokes per day.)
> >
> >Defeat:  create a log buffer file of fixed size, logged activity changes
> >its contents, but not the size of the file.  E.g.:  a filesystem image
> >file under GNU/Linux.  Techniques could be used to maintain a constant
> >global MD5 checksum to defeat other detection attempts.
> 
> What techniques could be used to do this?  MD5 has some weaknesses,
> but creating collisions still is not trivial.  Unless you know
> something I don't.

My bad.  I don't.

-- 
Karsten M. Self        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?             Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/                   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire                     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
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From squid at panix.com  Fri Dec  7 22:41:52 2001
From: squid at panix.com (Yeoh Yiu)
Date: 08 Dec 2001 01:41:52 -0500
Subject: IT revealed: Dean Kamen shows off mystery transportion
  device
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203092852.033cd630@idiom.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.1.20011203092852.033cd630@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


I expect to see some GingerITs dashing about 
in various robotwars.

YY

Bill Stewart  writes:

> Boy, what bad timing Kamen has.  Not only is it too late for
> Christmas sales (if in fact the things are shipping anytime soon,
> as opposed to this being a demo for next Christmas shipping),
> but overall it's a year or two too late to catch the Razor Scooter fad
> and the San Francisco geek toys market, where there are
> some people still commuting on $500 electric scooters
> (Doug Barnes used to haul one on Caltrain, for instance),
> but an N-thousand-dollar device that's only usable for short hauls
> within cities, it'll be a real tough sell.
> 
> The real question is whether, next year when he's trying to sell quantity,
> anybody will list to the next round of hype.  On the other hand,
> this announcement is at least timed to keep people from
> totally forgetting him as more dot-com vaporware,
> so maybe it's not that bad timing after all.




From nobody at dizum.com  Fri Dec  7 20:20:21 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Sat,  8 Dec 2001 05:20:21 +0100 (CET)
Subject: US seeks to force feed pilot it tricked, detained
References: <3C10221F.35997914@cdc.gov>
Message-ID: 


mv at cdc.gov (Major Variola ret) writes:

http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-000097083dec06.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation

> U.S. Seeks Force-Feeding Order for Fasting Detainee in Phoenix Courts:
> The unusual step involves a Middle Eastern pilot protesting his
> jailing in a dragnet. He faces identity fraud charges.
>
>
> By RICH CONNELL, TIMES STAFF WRITER
>
> Federal prosecutors in Phoenix are asking a judge to issue an unusual
> order to force-feed a hunger-striking Middle Eastern pilot arrested
> on charges stemming from the investigation of the Sept. 11 terrorism
> attacks.
>
> Malek Mohamed Seif, also known as Malek Mohamed Abdulah, is protesting
> what he contends is his improper detention as part of the global
> anti-terrorism dragnet.
>
> Taking only liquids, Seif has lost 30 pounds since his October arrest
> and is rapidly deteriorating, officials said. Seif, 36, believed to be
> a Djibouti national, has acknowledged a passing acquaintance with one
> of the suspected skyjackers.
>
> He also trained at the same Phoenix area flight school as an Algerian
> pilot suspected of helping prepare some of the hijackers, according to
> federal investigative records.
>
> But the only charges filed to date against Seif are for identity
> fraud. A federal judge recently stressed in a court order that no
> evidence has been presented linking him to terrorism.
>
> Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who is housing Seif for federal
> authorities, says he is getting worried about his high-profile inmate.
> "I don't want this guy to die in my jail," said the no-frills lawman
> who made headlines by housing prisoners in desert tents and making
> them wear pink shirts. Arpaio says he has been talking with Seif,
> trying to coax him to eat.
>
> As a compromise, Arpaio said, he removed pork from Seif's meals. But
> he has declined to fill his special requests for dates and ice water.
> "I said, 'We don't have room service.' " Seif's attorney, Thomas
> Hoidal, reported to a judge Monday that his client was in the jail
> infirmary and too weak to attend a hearing.
>
> Seif, who left the U.S. before the attacks, has complained that
> federal investigators duped him into returning to answer questions.
> After he landed in Phoenix on Oct. 25, he was arrested for allegedly
> making false statements on federal forms to obtain dual identities.
>
> "He doesn't understand, when he came back voluntarily, why he is being
> treated in this fashion," said Hoidal, who also is trying to persuade
> Seif to eat.
>
> Prosecutors expect to file additional bank and financial fraud charges
> against Seif and are worried he may be unfit to stand trial. They are
> seeking medical and psychiatric evaluations of Seif.
>
> One veteran U.S. law enforcement official in Phoenix said he knew
> of no other instance when federal prosecutors there sought a
> forced-feeding order.
>
> Sporadic hunger strikes have been reported among the more than 1,000
> detainees rounded up in the anti-terrorism crackdown. But Seif, who
> has dropped from about 180 to about 150 pounds, appears to have lasted
> the longest.
>
> It is not clear whether Seif intends to fight the forced feeding
> order, his attorney said. A hearing is scheduled for today. Arpaio
> doubts a judge's order will be effective, as long as Seif remains
> conscious. "If he's still coherent . . . you can't force the guy to
> eat if he says he doesn't want to."
>
> In another development Wednesday, a coalition of 16 civil liberties
> groups filed suit against the Justice Department, demanding
> information about those arrested and detained since the Sept. 11
> attacks. The groups said they were seeking such information as the
> names of the detainees, the charges against them and how long they
> have been held.
>
> Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft has argued that some of the information must
> be kept secret to aid in the investigation.
>
> Kate Martin of the Center for National Security Studies, a plaintiff
> in the case, said that instead of federal officials "simply announcing
> that they are respecting the Constitution, we need evidence that will
> show whether that is true."




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 11:17:35 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:17:35 +1100
Subject: : Re: Real capitalism falling down drunk
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208060025.00a38ce0@pop.useoz.com>


jamesd...
"Money in the US was largely privately issued until 1915.
Capitalism long predates government monopolies of money.
The word dollar comes from thaler, which a government stamped
ounce of silver -- but stamped by a minor government very far
away, one of many such stamping authorities."

Very interesting,relevant, not much,but fascinating.Can we talk of e-money 
replacing the present shared hallucination now?

"The state is the enemy of property, not the source. Property
rights in the means of production not only continued to exist
without state support, where the state was absent, they
invariably continued to exist in the face of massive bloody
state violence aimed at crushing those rights. Always, those
seeking to crush those rights had to escalate far beyond what
they expected, then escalate the violence even further."

Whatever the state is,its the enemy,right james?The biggest state at 
present is the US.There seems to some bad socialism creeping into the way 
airlines and others are being handled.The point I keep trying to make is 
the state is the guarantor  of  exploitive,authoritarian capitalism and 
anarchy esp crypto anarchy is the best way to fight that.Anarchy not 
libertarian party Kool-aid.Can we talk about this more at the airport bar? 
Aussi beer is the best.mattd.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 11:34:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:34:10 +1100
Subject: The nelson mandela of the crypto-anarchy revolution
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208062923.00a430e0@pop.useoz.com>


The crypto-anarchy revolution is a cause that I wish to bring about and 
live for...its also a cause I am willing to die for.

"We're strong as can be/A dream of power and energy/We go for the 
goal/Together we hold/On to our vision of global strategy..." 




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sat Dec  8 06:36:42 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:36:42 -0800
Subject: judge, law ignored by INS
Message-ID: <3C12257A.1578A67D@sarin.com>


http://www.usnews.com/usnews/usinfo/press/1207detain.htm
Muslim behind bars, despite a judge's order

A Turkish Muslim from White Plains, N.Y., held in a New Jersey jail
for more than two weeks, remains behind bars, despite a judge's
order that he be released.

Atila Kula, a 27-year-old former computer student, was picked up
by the FBI on Nov. 20, and questioned about the September 11
terrorist attacks.

Kula's lawyer Kerry Bretz insists his client has no knowledge of the
incidents. Bretz, who is based in New York, says Kula was likely
singled out when the Immigration and Naturalization Service
conducted a review of soon-to-expire student visas. Kula finished
classes at Baruch College on October 17.

Unlike other foreign nationals detained by the government, Bretz
says, Kula was legally in America. Students are permitted to stay
60 days after classes end.

Kula's wedding--which was to have been December 1--would have
made him eligible for a work permit.

                      This week, in a hearing closed to the public, an
immigration judge
                      ordered Kula immediately released. But when
immigration lawyers
                      said they intended to appeal the decision, the
judge's order was
                      automatically stayed, and Kula was sent back to
jail.

                      Immigration officials say they cannot discuss the
specifics of Kula's
                      case; they will say only that they have not picked
up people
                      randomly and do not appeal cases without good
reason.

                      Russ Bergeron, an INS spokesman, says that
detainees' rights
                      have not been abridged. He also noted that Kula
could get
                      married in jail. Last week, Denise Cordovano,
Kula's fiancee,
                      asked for just such a ceremony. The local sheriff
turned her down.




From hakkin at sarin.com  Sat Dec  8 06:47:57 2001
From: hakkin at sarin.com (Khoder bin Hakkin)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:47:57 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
Message-ID: <3C12281C.D93F18D1@sarin.com>


"Views reminiscent of Soviet propaganda"
By ARNAUD DE BORCHGRAVE, UPI Editor at Large
http://kevxml.infospace.com/_1_4JI4TKG04ZR6NFV__info/kevxml?kcfg=upi-article&sin=2001120808025705760&otmpl=/upi/story.htm&qcat=news&rn=16900&qk=10&passdate=12/08/2001

[and press editors are never on the psyopspooks' payroll, right Arnaud?]

[and questioning ashcroft is treason..]




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 11:51:45 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:51:45 +1100
Subject: U.S. Department of Interior Ordered Offline
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208064555.00a44a50@pop.useoz.com>


To stop hackers,yeah right. Nowt to do with wackenhut,casolero,octopus and 
the dominican echelon.

"To see father sky without planes for one day,(9-11) That was a beautiful 
thing,for an old man,"said one tribal elder.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 11:54:40 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 06:54:40 +1100
Subject: The Age of Paine Revisited, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208065227.00a48be0@pop.useoz.com>


How about revisiting the age of Douglas."power concedes nothing without the 
demand"

We demand digital cash and will defend it with assasination politics.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 12:05:56 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 07:05:56 +1100
Subject: CJ sent you a Yahoo! Greeting, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208070323.00a4beb0@pop.useoz.com>


Seen at www.indymedia.org ...Tora Tora Tora! (english)
by AP International 8:15am Fri Dec 7 '01

The day that japan pluckily fought back against vicious US colonialist 
hegemony was marked by an urgent highly classified warning to all americans 
in or travelling to the Pacific reigon.
A top secret urgent warning flash went out to all US embassies in the 
greater pacific this morning.
Laska jihad and moro rebels have agents disguised and well infiltrated as 
'sleepers'in all the major hotels frequented by american tourists.On a as 
yet undetermined signal they will attack and kill as many americans as they 
can.
The advisories are being unencrypted and prepared for public release as 
soon as a way to do so without unnecersarily alarming them is found.
US business interests are getting advance warning and have been asked to 
obtain as much information for the updated echelon op-centre as they can.
The fact US govt contracts will be awarded on the basis of cooperation with 
the outer homeland defence shield is said by a spokesman for the state dept 
to be,"not strictly correct".
Much of the assets of US govt interests are being withdrawn from the most 
dangerous countries and being replaced with 'drone' hardware and freshly 
written classified software.Millions,even billions is being spent to 
support US business interests in this new battle and the president has 
assured his contributors that "there will be no more Enrons,not while Im 
alive"
The vice president concurred from his bunker,adding that he's looking 
forward to receiving the heart of a transgenetic pig "soon,real soon"
clark cristoff for AP.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 12:17:43 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 07:17:43 +1100
Subject: aussi view of Guy Fawkes day, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208071155.00a4b0e0@pop.useoz.com>


This was a big deal when I was a little rascal.We lived in the bush and the 
bonfires were enormous.
It got turned into bunger night with massive sales of fireworks.The 2penny 
bunger was a miniature stick of dynamite.
With the inevitable mayhem and the rise of the nanny staters and safety 
nazis its all gone now yet some still praise
Guy Fawkes as 'the only person to enter parliment with honest intentions.'




From santas_workshop at straminc.com  Sat Dec  8 06:42:36 2001
From: santas_workshop at straminc.com (santas_workshop at straminc.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:42:36 -0600
Subject: Want to save this Holiday? FREE Shipping & the Best Prices South of the North Pole!
Message-ID: <200112081442.fB8EgZ703935@ak47.algebra.com>

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From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec  8 09:38:47 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 09:38:47 -0800
Subject: Jamesd-david Honig:Good cop,bad cop
In-Reply-To: <021e01c17fde$779c16f0$5300a8c0@marcel>
Message-ID: <3C11DFA7.24058.32444C6@localhost>


     --
On 8 Dec 2001, at 13:50, Marcel Popescu wrote:
> David Wieck's critique of Rothbard, applicable to 
> Libertarianism in general, will close this discussion.
>
>    ``Out of the history of anarchist thought and action
> Rothbard has pulled forth a single thread, the thread of 
> individualism, and defines that individualism in a way 
> alien even to the spirit of a Max Stirner or a Benjamin 
> Tucker, whose heritage I presume he would claim

Rothbard is scarcely distinguishable from Spooner, Spooner 
very much in the same camp as Tucker, and so forth.  If you 
go back a hundred years you can easily trace a thread of 
alliance and ideological connection connecting freemarket 
anarchists very similar to moderns with the most socialist 
anarchists.

Back before 1910, before socialist terror and tyranny had 
been tried to any large extent, there was no large gap 
between socialists an anarchists.  Most socialist thought 
that only a modest about of killings and beatings would be 
required, most anarchists thought that the less property 
rights were enforceable, the more giving and sharing their 
would be.

In the period 1936-1938 anarcho socialism was actually tried, 
and therefore the ideology ceased to exist among all those 
familiar with this bloody and disastrous experiment, except 
in the sense that many mourned over its failure, though the 
brand name continued to be cynically used for an utterly 
different program.  Those who continued to call themselves 
socialists after 1938 reinvented and reinterpreted the 
anarchists of the past, giving new and strange meanings to 
their words to strip them of any anarchist tendencies, like 
Mullah Omar torturing the text of the Koran to make it mean a 
garbled mixture of postmodernism, marxism, nationalism, and 
the customs and prejudices of his home village.

The parting of the ways came earlier in the US than it did in 
Europe.

In the US, socialist anarchism faded sometime around the turn 
of the century.  In Europe, it died in 1936-1938

The history of anarchism in the US is as follows (simplified 
and abbreviated).

Originally there was no real distinction or separation 
between class struggle anarchism and individualist anarchism 
in the US.

The class struggle anarchists encountered a lack of working 
class support, and came to be dominated by vanguardists. 
Vanguardism is of course utterly incompatible with anarchism.

The split started when Tucker (then the most prominent 
individualist anarchist) denounced vanguardist "anarchists" 
who had been murdering various people, among them innocent 
working class people, to advance their political goals.  The 
split became progressively more vehement, with the 
individualist anarchists taking increasingly capitalistic 
positions.

The vanguardist anarchists, which you would call left 
anarchists, became utterly discredited by their excesses, and 
this, combined with a distinct lack of proletarian support, 
made possible an anti anarchist crackdown which for a time 
silenced all forms of anarchism in the US.

The anarchist movement in the US eventually recovered, but 
the class struggle anarchists remained discredited by their 
criminal excesses in the US, and by their inability to 
maintain any real connection with the US working class, and 
never recovered.  When the anarchist movement reappeared in 
the US, it was dominated by procapitalist thinkers who 
grounded their arguments in economic theory.  The leading 
lights of modern US anarchism have been economists.  The 
socialist "anarchists" in the US is a recent European import, 
merely an offshoot of the European movement which stole the 
anarchist brand name, when anarcho socialism died in 
Catalonia, much as modern liberals stole the "liberal" brand 
name in the US. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     Qn04k2XwwEv4zBiIuDCgiGxWdnxN8v7gwPTUuW2G
     46n7bbvc1CcmPw5hh9pUodS00eWG56eChdniq22D6




From jamesd at echeque.com  Sat Dec  8 10:00:48 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:00:48 -0800
Subject: Are you now or have you ever been a crypto-anarchist?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208230340.00a1d6e0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C11E4D0.32087.3386A95@localhost>


    --
On 8 Dec 2001, at 23:09, mattd wrote:
> Subject: Are you an anarchist? Dont make me apply this 
> cattle prod to your genitals. Anarchist groups among 39 
> designated by Department of State as "terrorists" (english)
>
> Three anarchists groups are among the Department of State's 
> recent list of "terrorists": Revolutionary Proletarian 
> Nucleus (Italy), and Anarchist Faction for Overthrow, and 
> the Mavro Asteri (Black Star) (Greece)

Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, its former servants 
have unblushingly labelled themselves anarchists, Jello 
Biafra being a notorious example.

"Revolutionary proletarian nucleus" is almost the same as the 
infamous Trotskyist phrase "Revolutionary proletarian 
vanguard".  Substituting "nucleus" for "vanguard" is like a 
dot com company taking the dot out of its name after the dot 
com crash, Just as "Surfmonkey.com", suddenly became
"Surfmonkey", though its web site is just as central to its
business as ever. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     +0aRa5cnNd0KDg7/lSQIu2lKdahqKY2BD8Q7dWy1
     4qvGCebzTktvlbqLPrOTzqvN9pp761ht+eZnGUocB




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Sat Dec  8 07:32:32 2001
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:32:32 -0500
Subject: RIAA Cracks Down After Taliban Ousted (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <20011208103232.A26153@ils.unc.edu>


Nice attempt at satire.

However, Afghanistan is almost the only country left
in the world where international copyright laws 
essentially don't apply.

They're not signatories to ANY treaties I could find
administered by WIPO, including the Berne and Paris 
conventions.  They're not part of the WTO or World 
Bank or NATO, or even the League of Arab States.  

In short, RIAA can take their legalese and shove
it up their intellectually protected arse, as
far as Afghanistan is concerned.

See http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/okbooks.html
for more on copyright and different laws in different
countries.  

For an extract of Afghanistan's 1950 copyright
law, see UNESCO's content at:
http://www.unesco.org/culture/copy/copyright/afghanistan/sommaire.html

I'd say the chances of even their law (which is very
slack by modern standards) still being enforced by
whomever is in charge in AF are slim to nil.
  -- Greg

PS: If you think this means AF is a "music haven"
where the rest of the world could go to host,
republish or redistribute content that's under
copyright elsewhere, sorry.  This would only apply
if you wanted to spend the rest of your life there,
because as soon as you left and arrived at, say,
a signatory to the new WIPO copyright treaty, you'd
find yourself Skylarov'd.

PPS:  Number of .af hosts listed at Netcraft = 1 (http://www.nic.af)

PPPS: Number of functional .af hosts listed at Netcraft = 0


On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 07:18:32PM -0600, measl at mfn.org wrote:
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:17:09 -0700
> From: xxxx
> To: yyyy
> Subject: RIAA Cracks Down After Taliban Ousted
> 
> http://bbspot.com/News/2001/11/riaa.html
> 
> 
> Kabul, Afghanistan - The Recording Industry Association of 
> Afghanistan (RIAA) has begun a major crackdown on pirated 
> music since the Taliban fell from power 2 days ago, and
> launched their own bid for control in the war torn city. 
> Many cheered the fall of the Taliban, but the RIAA feels 
> that if music can be listened to that copyrights will be 
> violated. 
> 
> Soon after the Taliban fled Kabul, black market Qamar Gul 
> and Ahmad Zahir CDs were being openly peddled on street 
> corners. Rumors of Abdullah Muqri MP3s circulating on the 
> Kabul computer were widespread.
> 
> "It was much easier to control music piracy when the Taliban 
> was in control. Now we fear that with their new found freedom 
> the people of Kabul and in the rest of Afghanistan will turn 
> to copyright violation to satisfy their musical needs," said 
> RIAA President Ghulam Hotak. "An RIAA lead country will be 
> able to enjoy the joys of music, but only if artist are 
> properly compensated."
> 
> Opposition groups denounce the RIAA power grab. "We will fight 
> to the last man to keep the RIAA from power in Afghanistan," 
> said General Mahommed Dawood of the Northern Alliance. "We did 
> not unseat the Taliban only to have them replaced by a more 
> oppressive regime."
> 
> The Recording Industry Association of America has pledged 
> support to the RIAA by offering troops from its elite piracy 
> fighting Freedom Squad. "We can not sit idly by and watch the 
> people of Afghanistan violate copyrights. Our brothers in the 
> RIAA need our support," said Hilary Rosen.
> 
> EOF




From iggy at panix.com  Sat Dec  8 09:51:54 2001
From: iggy at panix.com (Iggy River)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:51:54 -0500
Subject: subscribe
Message-ID: <3C120CEA.25656.DBBF242@localhost>


subscribe




From mdpopescu at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  8 03:50:00 2001
From: mdpopescu at yahoo.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 13:50:00 +0200
Subject: Jamesd-david Honig:Good cop,bad cop
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011207055615.009f9a80@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <021e01c17fde$779c16f0$5300a8c0@marcel>


From: "mattd" 

> http://www.spunk.org/library/otherpol/critique/sp000713.txt

David Wieck's critique of Rothbard,
applicable to Libertarianism in general, will close this
discussion.

   ``Out of the history of anarchist thought and action
Rothbard has pulled forth a single thread, the thread of
individualism, and defines that individualism in a way
alien even to the spirit of a Max Stirner or a Benjamin
Tucker, whose heritage I presume he would claim - to
say nothing of how alien is his way to the spirit of
Godwin, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Malatesta, and the
historically anonymous persons who through their thoughts and
action have tried to give anarchism a living meaning.
Out of this thread Rothbard manufactures one more
bourgeois ideology.''[31]

[Mark] And this is supposed to be a CRITIQUE of Rothbard. "He doesn't agree
with my saints, so he's wrong.". Duh.

The stuff about Ayn Rand was nice, though:

<>

This is one of the arguments used by Roy Childs: the politics in Objectivism
are in total contradiction with the rest, since they presume that humans are
bad, except when they are part of the (minimal, or even not so minimal)
government.

Mark




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 19:55:17 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 14:55:17 +1100
Subject: Honig falling down drunk?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208144940.00a353f0@pop.useoz.com>


"...If you don't see the implications for future history..."

NO FUTURE NO FUTURE
NO FUTURE FOR YOU
NO FUTURE NO FUTURE
NO FUTURE NO FUTURE FOR ME

NO FUTURE NO FUTURE
NO FUTURE FOR YOU
NO FUTURE NO FUTURE FOR YOU




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 20:03:28 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 15:03:28 +1100
Subject: Why May
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208145920.00a33d80@pop.useoz.com>


And now, the end is near And so I face the final curtain You KKKunt, I4m 
not a queer I4ll state my case, of which I4m certain I4ve lived a life 
that4s full And each and every highway And yet, much more than this I did 
it my way And yes, I4ve had a few But then again, too few to mention But 
dig, what I have to focked I4ll see it through with no devotion Of that, 
take care and just Be careful along the highway And more, much more than 
this I did it my way There were times, I4m sure you knew When there was 
nothing fucking else to do But through it all, when there was doubt I shot 
it up or kicked it out I fought the just as before And did it my way 
Knocked out in bed last night I4ve had my fill, my share of looting And 
now, the tears subside I find it all so amusing To think, I killed a cat 
And may I say, oh no, not in a shy way. But no, no, not me I did it my way 
For what is a rat, what has he got When he finds out that he cannot Say the 
things he truly thinks But only the words, not what he feels The record 
shows, I4ve got no clothes And did it my way.




From mattd at useoz.com  Fri Dec  7 20:31:08 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 15:31:08 +1100
Subject: Delinquent officer list
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208152930.00a39280@pop.useoz.com>


Agent jeff gordon is requested to supply the following...Tax Reporting 
Account number Legal Entity name (individual, partnership or a corporation) 
Original amount of the debt (the current amount due is not disclosable) 
Date of lien filing Court where the tax lien was filed Date the business 
license was revoked (if applicable)In relation to abuse of office in bell 
trial. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 03:56:01 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 22:56:01 +1100
Subject: US seeks to force feed pilot it tricked, detained 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208225222.00a1d1a0@pop.useoz.com>


Seif should run for office,Its 20 years since MP bobby 
sands.Sheriff  arpaio needs operating on with a soft drill.(my 2c)

"All advice is bad,good advice,fatal" Wilde.




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 04:09:52 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:09:52 +1100
Subject: Are you now or have you ever been a crypto-anarchist?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208230340.00a1d6e0@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: Are you an anarchist? Dont make me apply this cattle prod to your 
genitals.
Anarchist groups among 39 designated by Department of State as "terrorists" 
(english)


Three anarchists groups are among the Department of State's recent list of 
"terrorists": Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus (Italy), and Anarchist 
Faction for Overthrow, and the Mavro Asteri (Black Star) (Greece)

7 anarchists jailed in US puppet police state of Turkey.

Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad of Malaysia said that the United States 
has been learning from his country how to combat terrorism and that the 
West, which once accused him of trampling on human rights, now is following 
him.
.
"It's no good taking action after the crime," Mr. Mahathir said. "We have 
to act in anticipation, and not in the usual manner, because having to find 
proof of a crime which has not yet been committed is difficult."




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 04:12:02 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:12:02 +1100
Subject: More on
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208231114.00a30dd0@pop.useoz.com>


6 anarchists who are "claimed to be" from U~ak Anarchist Autonom have been 
arrested and will be judged in State Security Court-SSC (Devlet G|venlik 
Mahkemesi-DGM). SSC's are special courts which were established for 
revolutionary leftists and Kurdish militants; this is the first event in 
Turkish anarchist history that a group of "anarchists" are being sent to 
SSC. They are claimed to be members of an illegal organization and the 
reason of the arrests is JUST an anarchist leaflet they've distributed in a 
demonstration of trade-unions in 1st of December. For now they are in U~ak 
Prison but perhaps will be moved to Nazilli Prison and wait for their trial 
in Izmir SSC. The news appeared in one of the biggest papers of Turkish 
mainstream media (H|rriyet) but in Europe press. (So we could not justify 
the info for a few days) More detailed info will be sent as soon as we get.. 




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 04:49:25 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:49:25 +1100
Subject: Wank for capitalism
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208234829.00a34890@pop.useoz.com>


SchNEWS just couldn't make it up, last Sunday was the first annual walk for
capitalism. Three dozen capitalists, (or two as the police saw it), walked
through Westlake Park in Seattle waving signs such as "Help a starving
child in Africa. Give him capitalism." "Make Money Not Class War." and
"Capitalism is more important than democracy." - OK, these were held by
anti-capitalist protestors, who infiltrated the march.

Tym Parsons, the Seattle coordinator of WalkForCapitalism complained "We
knew they had something in the works. Their aim was to infiltrate our
organization and discredit it by way of parody."

Er, SchNEWS reckons you did a good enough job of that yourself, with one
passer by commenting "I find it all very amusing. I don't think I've ever
seen a protest for capitalism before. Don't these people already have what
they're fighting for?"

The question is why did they choose to celebrate D2 (they've even nicked
the names) with something as inefficient, ecologically sustainable and
downright un-capitalistic as walking?

SchNEWS reckons they would have also got more people onboard if someone had
promised to bung each person who turned up #25 and a packed lunch (well
that's the only reason us rent-a-mob lot ever bother turning up to
demonstrations.)

Have a laugh, look at their website: www.walkforcapitalism.org/




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 04:53:42 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:53:42 +1100
Subject: "Im for capitalism! How much does it cost?"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011208235222.00a301e0@pop.useoz.com>


Local News : Monday, December 03, 2001 Protesters' spoof? What a capital
idea! By Caitlin Cleary Seattle Times staff reporter In yesterday's
WalkForCapitalism, it was left to the true believers and pro-capitalist
watchdogs to weed out the real capitalists from the fake, dressed as they
were to the nearest thrift-store approximation of capitalist chic: suit
jackets, ties, argyle sweater vests, their hair evenly parted and smoothed,
holding signs that read "Capitalism is Better than Democracy." It was
Capitalism Day, or D2  the first Sunday of December, set aside by a global
pro-capitalist campaign to celebrate and promote capitalism, globalism,
technology, free trade, individual rights and private property  and lo and
behold, the anti-capitalist, anti-globalization, anti-WTO protesters were
crashing their party. Seattle was one of 100 cities around the world that
hosted WalkForCapitalism. Its participants spoke admiringly of capitalists
such as Bill Gates and Thomas Edison, and held signs that read, "Make Money
Not Class War." Tom Szalay of Everett, a retired firefighter, said the
protesters might want to think about getting jobs and joining capitalism.
The crowd of about 100 people seemed evenly split between the earnest
capitalists and the World Trade Organization protesters in capitalist drag.
"We knew they had something in the works," said Tym Parsons, the Seattle
coordinator of WalkForCapitalism. "Their aim was to infiltrate our
organization and discredit it by way of parody." The downtown event was
like performance art: Faux capitalists, dressed in suits, carried signs
that read, "Child Labor Is Best For America: Smaller Hands Mean Tighter
Stitches" and distributed fake business cards from "Globex Industries" with
the company motto, "We Own You." They remained poker-faced as they spoke
about their support of child labor and love of capitalism. Relentlessly
serious throughout the march, they never got out of character. If the
anti-capitalist interlopers did not completely overshadow the original
intent of WalkForCapitalism, their parody did make the event more of a
spectacle. Anti-capitalist protester Scott Thompson was explaining the
goings-on to passer-by Kerry Pflugh of Washington, N.J., in town for a
conference. "I find it all very amusing," said Pflugh. "I don't think I've
ever seen a protest for capitalism before. Don't these people already have
what they're fighting for?" Because the WalkForCapitalism organizers did
not get a parade permit, police escorted both groups together from Benaroya
Hall to Westlake Park, while Parsons shouted at the WTO protesters to
leave. Parsons' group had obtained a permit for the rally at the park, and
once everyone had arrived there, police began to remove the anti-capitalist
protesters. "But I'm for capitalism," said a protester who called himself
D.S. Rosenthorpe. "How much does it cost to get in?" he asked, offering up
one dollar. He did receive a park-exclusion notice barring him from all
downtown parks for seven days. There were no arrests. "We have the
authority to enforce park rules," said Seattle police Lt. Daniel Whelan.
"Our mission here is for life, safety and the protection of property." A
few of the fake capitalists were convincing enough to be left alone in the
rally crowd. When asked if they were capitalists, they responded with a
firm nod and a barely perceptible wink. Sometimes they smiled and yelled
"Hippies!" back at the group of protesters from whence they came. The
obviously fake capitalists were sent across Fourth Avenue, where they lined
the sidewalk in front of Borders bookstore and sang and shouted, "Shop!
Shop! Shop!" And shop the people did. Even before the rally ended, the
streets were crowded with shoppers, burdened with bags from Old Navy and
Nordstrom. Caitlin Cleary can be reached at 206-464-8214 or at
mailto:ccleary at seattletimes.com -- Dan Clore
mailto:clore at columbia-center.org Now available: _The Unspeakable and
Others_ http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro Lord
Werdgliffe: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/ Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/necpage.htm News for Anarchists &
Activists: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo




From mattd at useoz.com  Sat Dec  8 10:20:10 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 05:20:10 +1100
Subject: E-money under our noses
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011209051246.00a1b1c0@pop.useoz.com>


Barter units of money or BUMs start to circulate in lieu of dollar and 
float with the dollar.When the 1st letter from the tax office arrives to 
tell you your precious BUMs will be taxed as dollars they are subjected to 
AP.If they harden the tax collectors as targets then other federal 
employees,prison guards,forest service grunts,postal workers become fair game.
Like Osama says,if your paying taxes,your propping up a rogue terror 
state.Its time to tear apart the state.Bet the farm.




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Sun Dec  9 19:32:34 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:32:34 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20011206020259.0384c2b0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <000201c1812b$4eee2010$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>

The big question is: will FreeS/WAN latest release after some 4 or 5
years of development finally both compile and install cleanly on current
versions of Red Hat Linux, FreeS/WAN's purported target platform?

--Lucky, who is bothered by the fact that most his Linux using friends
so far have been unable to get FreeS/WAN to even compile into a working
kernel, while just about every *BSD distribution - and for that matter
Windows XP - ship with a working IPSec implementation out-of-the-box.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
> [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Bill Stewart
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:05 AM
> To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com
> Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
> 
> 
>  From Claudia Schmeing 's summary:
>   
> =========
> 
> 1.  Release 1.93 ships!
>      ===================
>      1 post Dec 3
>      
> http://lists.freeswan.org/pipermail/users/2001-December/005632
.html

A number of small improvements have been added to this release, which
was shipped on-time.

Some highlights:

* Diffie-Hellman group 5 is now the first group proposed.
* Two cases where fragmentation is needed will be handled better, thanks
   to these two changes

        The code that decides whether to send an ICMP complaint back
about
        a packet which had to be fragmented, but couldn't be, has gotten
        smart enough that we now feel comfortable enabling it by
default.
   and

        IKE (UDP/500) packets which were large enough to be fragmented
used
        to be mishandled, with some of the fragments failing to bypass
IPsec
        tunnels properly.  This has been fixed; our thanks to Hans
Schultz.

* If Pluto gets more than one RSA key from DNS, it will now try each
key.
   This will help when a system administrator replaces a key.
* There is preliminary support for building RPMs.
* SMP support is better.
* The team has eliminated a vulnerability that might permit a denial of 
service
   attack.

What can we expect from the next release? Henry Spencer writes:

     We are in the process of chasing down a couple of significant bugs
(which
     have been there since at least 1.92 and possibly earlier), and we
*might*
     ship another release quite shortly if we nail them down and fix
them.  If
     we don't, we won't.  Barring that possibility, the next release is
planned
     for the end of January; a more precise date will be announced
shortly.




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From warlord at MIT.EDU  Mon Dec 10 10:21:26 2001
From: warlord at MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins)
Date: 10 Dec 2001 13:21:26 -0500
Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
In-Reply-To: "Lucky Green"'s message of "Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:32:34 -0800"
References: <000201c1812b$4eee2010$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>
Message-ID: 

Note that to compile FreeS/WAN on Red Hat using the Red Hat
kernel-source RPM you need to:
	rm include/linux/modules/*.ver
before you 'make dep'.  Otherwise you get module version
brokenness.

-derek

"Lucky Green"  writes:

> The big question is: will FreeS/WAN latest release after some 4 or 5
> years of development finally both compile and install cleanly on current
> versions of Red Hat Linux, FreeS/WAN's purported target platform?
> 
> --Lucky, who is bothered by the fact that most his Linux using friends
> so far have been unable to get FreeS/WAN to even compile into a working
> kernel, while just about every *BSD distribution - and for that matter
> Windows XP - ship with a working IPSec implementation out-of-the-box.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com 
> > [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On Behalf Of Bill Stewart
> > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:05 AM
> > To: cypherpunks at lne.com
> > Cc: cryptography at wasabisystems.com
> > Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
> > 
> > 
> >  From Claudia Schmeing 's summary:
> >   
> > =========
> > 
> > 1.  Release 1.93 ships!
> >      ===================
> >      1 post Dec 3
> >      
> > http://lists.freeswan.org/pipermail/users/2001-December/005632
> .html
> 
> A number of small improvements have been added to this release, which
> was shipped on-time.
> 
> Some highlights:
> 
> * Diffie-Hellman group 5 is now the first group proposed.
> * Two cases where fragmentation is needed will be handled better, thanks
>    to these two changes
> 
>         The code that decides whether to send an ICMP complaint back
> about
>         a packet which had to be fragmented, but couldn't be, has gotten
>         smart enough that we now feel comfortable enabling it by
> default.
>    and
> 
>         IKE (UDP/500) packets which were large enough to be fragmented
> used
>         to be mishandled, with some of the fragments failing to bypass
> IPsec
>         tunnels properly.  This has been fixed; our thanks to Hans
> Schultz.
> 
> * If Pluto gets more than one RSA key from DNS, it will now try each
> key.
>    This will help when a system administrator replaces a key.
> * There is preliminary support for building RPMs.
> * SMP support is better.
> * The team has eliminated a vulnerability that might permit a denial of 
> service
>    attack.
> 
> What can we expect from the next release? Henry Spencer writes:
> 
>      We are in the process of chasing down a couple of significant bugs
> (which
>      have been there since at least 1.92 and possibly earlier), and we
> *might*
>      ship another release quite shortly if we nail them down and fix
> them.  If
>      we don't, we won't.  Barring that possibility, the next release is
> planned
>      for the end of January; a more precise date will be announced
> shortly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Cryptography Mailing List
> Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo at wasabisystems.com

-- 
       Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
       Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
       URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/    PP-ASEL-IA     N1NWH
       warlord at MIT.EDU                        PGP key available



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From root at ak47.algebra.com  Mon Dec 10 12:27:50 2001
From: root at ak47.algebra.com (root)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:27:50 -0600
Subject: test
Message-ID: <200112102027.fBAKRoMh008395@ak47.algebra.com>


hi




From root at ak47.algebra.com  Mon Dec 10 12:28:27 2001
From: root at ak47.algebra.com (root)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:28:27 -0600
Subject: test
Message-ID: <200112102028.fBAKSRM5008494@ak47.algebra.com>


hi




From root at ak47.algebra.com  Mon Dec 10 12:30:52 2001
From: root at ak47.algebra.com (root)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:30:52 -0600
Subject: CYPHER.PUNK MAILING LIST failure
Message-ID: <200112102030.fBAKUqQr008813@ak47.algebra.com>


due to a fuckup with sendmail, cypherpunks at algebra.com did nto work for a while. I was not paying attention until Hal brought it to my attention.




From measl at mfn.org  Mon Dec 10 12:37:02 2001
From: measl at mfn.org (measl at mfn.org)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:37:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Nov-L: Narco News wins big! http://www.narconews.com/ (fwd)
Message-ID: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:45:00 -0800
From: Nora Callahan 
To: november-l at november.org
Subject: Nov-L: Narco News wins big! http://www.narconews.com/

November Coalition members:

For about a year we have been covering this story in the Razor Wire and
periodic updates on this elist. 

Nora

Subj:    Ross Regnart: Al  Giordano won his case against Bank in Mexico
now 
owned by Citibank
Date:   12/8/2001 11:00:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   lobo at renonevada.net (Ross)
To: Chswn at cs.com

  December 8, 2001
  A Narco News Global Celebration!

  Narco News Beats Banamex!

  -- NY State Supreme Court Dismisses All Charges against Mario
Men�ndez, Al 
  Giordano and The Narco News Bulletin

  -- "Narco-Bankers" Failed Despite Citigroup Merger

  -- Judge Paula Omansky: Free Speech Champion

  -- "Narco-Lobbyists" at Akin Gump Strauss Hauer and Feld humilliated; 
McLish 
  filed an insufficient complaint

  -- NO Jurisdiction over authentic journalist Mario Men�ndez, publisher
and 
  editor of the daily Por Esto! in Mexico

  -- Insufficient Complaint vs. Narco News and Al Giordano

  -- The Drug War Went on Trial And The Drug War Lost

  Stay Tuned for a Full Report:

  http://www.narconews.com/

  Narco News offers its profound thanks to our readers for your support 
  throughout this expensive attack on our free speech and press freedom.

  We thank the many people who donated large and small contributions to
the 
  "Drug War on Trial" defense fund to defeat the billionaires' abuse of
the 
  legal system to attack cyber-liberties.

  We extend our congratulations and gratitude to Mario Men�ndez in
M�rida, 
  Yucatan, for his heroic work exposing corrupt white-collar drug
traffickers 
  and how the US DEA and other government agencies protect them.

  Mario started a movement. And this movement, to expose the real powers 
  behind the corrupt war on drugs, and to end the drug prohibition from
which 
  they profit, will continue, and will triumph.

  We have not yet begun to fight!

  We offer our most profound thanks to Tom Lesser, counsel to Narco
News, and 
  everyone at Lesser, Newman, Souweine and Nasser of Northampton, 
  Massachusetts, particularly Libby Spencer and Karen Thatcher, who beat
the 
  biggest lawyer-lobbyist firm in the world.

  Tom Lesser pitched a no-hitter against the Akin Gumpsters, the
overpaid 
  incompetents who struck out at every time at bat against the great
civil 
  liberties and free-speech barrister from Massachusetts.

  It is fair to say that without Tom Lesser, this immense victory would
not 
  have been possible.

  We also thank the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), who valiently
filed 
  an amicus brief on behalf of The Narco News Bulletin when other "press 
  freedom" institutions ran from the fight.

  We also thank Marty Garbus, David Atlas and the team who defended
Mario 
  Menendez so ably, whose teamwork and experience made this defense 
  unstoppable against the biggest of foes.

  And we thank all the many colleagues in authentic journalism who wrote 
  about, spoke about, reported on and investigated this case, and in
every 
  single instance concluded what NY State Supreme Court Justice Paula
Omansky 
  has just ruled: This billionaire's lawsuit should never have been brought.

  We are sure we have more people to thank, but frankly, it is Saturday
Night 
  in a country called Am�rica, a night to celebrate. It's a world dance 
party, 
  from Cochabamba to your town.

  But be assured: We are not done with the billionaire Plaintiffs in
this 
  case.

  They abused the court system and used their overpowering wealth to try
to 
  overpower us. And they failed.

  We will consult with our attorneys and co-defendant, and announce the
next 
  step in our legal strategy shortly. The aggressors will not be let off
the 
  hook.

  We have anticipated this victory, and now phase two begins.

  To repeat: ALL three charges against all three defendants in the case
of 
  Banco Nacional de Mexico (Banamex) vs. Mario Men�ndez, Al Giordano and 
Narco 
  News have been dismissed by the New York State Supreme Court.

  Impacting...

 >From somewhere in a country called Am�rica,

  Al Giordano
  Publisher
  The Narco News Bulletin
  http://www.narconews.com/
  narconews at hotmail.com
-- 
The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit
organization, your gifts are tax deductible. 
You can send your donation to: 

The November Coalition  
795 South Cedar 
Colville, WA 99114
--------
November-L is a voluntary mailing list of the November Coalition.
To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/ or send a
message to november-L-request at november.org containing the command
"unsubscribe"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 13:31:48 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:31:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda 
In-Reply-To: <3C147AFA.13899.362FBE@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> And I have given numerous examples, to which no one has
> replied, except as mattd has recently done -- by citing
> Chomsky as evidence for the truthfulness of Chomsky, much
> after the fashion of a Christian who cites the bible as proof
> of the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus as proof of the
> infallibility of the bible.

[text deleted]

Not true. I've asked several times for clarification and never(!!!)
received anything from you in responce. I'll look into the text I deleted
since it will take a few minutes to review. I'll let you know what I think
of your analysis of Chomsky's views.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 13:44:56 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:44:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Congress of the rat.
In-Reply-To: <3C13F9A0.10861.30DA155@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

>     --
> On 10 Dec 2001, at 16:20, mattd wrote:
> > Was it Chomsky who pointed out that the capitalist firm is
> > structured like a totalitarian state?
> 
> The difference is that you can change firms, or start your
> own, without being shot. 

Which comes more from the involvement of government than any inherent
ethical peak capitalism may aspire to (it doesn't so your point is moot
unless you also admit the utility of having governments as
intermediaries is a positive - can't see a CACL supporter as yourself
going that route).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 13:47:29 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:47:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211094041.00a51de0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> There are checks and balances,get a grip.Read the essay.

No, there are not.

> Its self limiting.No one who is anonymous has anything to fear from AP.

The only way that AP would be harmless to an anonymous person is if they
were anonymous to EVERYONE. The entire point of AP is to provide a
mechanism to reach ANYONE who might infringe upon your 'rights'.

Trying to pitch AP as if only certain classes of people are at risk is
simply ignorance (you didn't really read AP now did you) or else you
intentionaly misrepresent. Either way, your point isn't valid.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jya at pipeline.com  Mon Dec 10 16:16:37 2001
From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:16:37 -0800
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <0b6888eaf9844ca38eee29b1d175ab8f@dizum.com>
Message-ID: 


Whatever promise AP has for its avowed purpose, so far it
has helped to jail a couple of guys and smear a few more
while boosting the careers of several alleged targets.

Talking about AP in public is still going on, here and elsewhere.
Disagreeing about it too. Take it seriously or as a joke, take
your pick. Nothing in the essay proves it's serious or a joke.
Its quality appears to be determined by the credulity of the
reader. 

I like its jokey aspects more than the other. But that's my feeling
about this forum too. The thrill continues, trying to figure out
who is serious and how is joking and who is laying the traps. 

The more serious posts here are the best, but mattd is coming
on swell for a standoff comic. 

True that not everyone likes the humor of political agitation,
and prefer a somber aping of the pols and mils and edus
flogging non-fictional aspirations to right what's wrong,
delusional ravings presented as insight.

Jim Bell would have made AP an underground comedy if he
had hung out with the time-wasterists at MIT rather than with
the techno-commercialists. But I think his techno-political
potboiler succeeds by making a comical wrong turn into the
pokey, not once but twice, and inspiring CJ to follow,
and mattd, and surely more to come as the AP PR machine
gains momentum. 

A lesson to be learned by the politico-religio-righteous.




From georgemw at speakeasy.net  Mon Dec 10 16:16:56 2001
From: georgemw at speakeasy.net (georgemw at speakeasy.net)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:16:56 -0800
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
Message-ID: <3C14DFF8.2989.35052EE1@localhost>


An idea just popped into my head, I was wondering if
anyone had thought of this before. Most likely someone has,
and has either proven the idea is impossible or has figured
out how to do it.

Th idea is,  when buying some good or service with
digital cash,  the customer first forwards the cash to the vendor
in some transformed way such that the vendor 
can't yet spend it, but can verify that it is
good cash of the correct amount, and that 
the customer will no longer be able to spend it.

The idea is, if the vendor follows through on his side,
the customer will supply the additional information the
vendor will need to redeem the cash.  The customer can still
rip the vendor off by refusing to do so, but he has no incentive,
the money's already gone for him.  Conversely,  an
unscrupulous "vendor" could in principle trick a customer
into throwing away money on nothing,  but he would gain no profit
in doing so.

I realize the same effect is trivial to achieve if you have a mutually
trusted third party willing to act as escrow agent, but if you
don't, is there a a way to build this into a transfer protocol?

Thanks,
	George 




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 10 14:06:05 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 17:06:05 -0500
Subject: [Remops] A comparison of Frog-Admin, the Script-Kiddie,
  AnonymousTrolls and other plagues of the privacy community. (fwd) 
Message-ID: <200112102206.RAA06535@mail.lokmail.net>

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From bobhurst at gopbi.com  Mon Dec 10 18:10:02 2001
From: bobhurst at gopbi.com (bobhurst at gopbi.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:10:02
Subject: ADV: Web hosting $6.95 per month - NO GIMMICKS!
Message-ID: <200112102311.fBANBWDf032178@ak47.algebra.com>

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Size: 7358 bytes
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From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Dec 10 19:52:40 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:52:40 -0800
Subject: eCash reported mortally wounded...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <00ca01c181f7$47c28480$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>


Eugene wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Lucky Green wrote:
> 
> > --Lucky, waiting patiently for 2005.
> 
> Patent expiration date? Which one?

US Patent 4759063 "Blind Signature Systems" will expire on July 19,
2005. Given that this is a Tuesday and taking into account that whoever
may own the patents at that time is not about to file a patent
infringement suit on Monday, the last day the patent is valid, I hereby
announce a patent expiration party at my place on Saturday, July 16
2005.

The day will come,
--Lucky




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec 10 20:30:36 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:30:36 -0800
Subject: Thuraya Profits From Satphone Stampede
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011210202937.0382d4c0@pop3.lvcm.com>


Thuraya Profits From Satphone Stampede

This year's war on terrorism has proved to be a good thing for the Thuraya 
satphone, with everyone from journalists to warlords buying the phones in 
Afghanistan. Savanna International Telecommunication, which is selling the 
phones and service, says it isn't asking any questions; rather, it is just 
taking in the money. During the past five days, the carrier says it has 
sold more than 120 sets, and people continue to stand in line for the $700 
handsets. Savanna says its phones can't be monitored, but others are 
skeptical of this claim. Reported by The Gulf News.

http://www.offshoretele.com/product/hss.htm




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Dec 10 20:34:42 2001
From: petro at bounty.org (Petro)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:34:42 -0800
Subject: will the real capitalism please stand up
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011206135241.00a2bd90@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <655AE96F-EDF0-11D5-95FD-00306577F12E@bounty.org>


On Wednesday, December 5, 2001, at 06:58 PM, mattd wrote:

> Tim may or a pretender wrote "The solution is obvious: capitalism. The
> real one, not the fascist version."
>
> Objectivism the real thing? How do you separate  fascism  from 
> capitalism?

	If you have to ask, you don't understand either *at all*.

	But there is a simple test.

	Who owns the guns?

--
Amendment II, Revised: A well-regulated population being necessary to 
the security of a police state, the right of the Government to keep and 
destroy arms shall not be infringed.
--Sten Drescher --




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec 10 20:35:27 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:35:27 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211094041.00a51de0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011210203527.009bab80@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:53 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>Tim said its an openly elitist list 
>once.

Yes, so is an university.  A meritocracy is necessarily discriminatory.

Deal with it.

AOL has plenty of groups for folks who find this list too abrasive..




From cypherpunks at vr.net  Mon Dec 10 20:39:07 2001
From: cypherpunks at vr.net (cypherpunks at vr.net)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:39:07
Subject: GUARANTEED way to have more CREDIT FOR THE HOLIDAYS!! Time:8:39:07 PM
Message-ID: <200112110444.WAA02055@einstein.ssz.com>


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From cypherpunks at penn.com  Mon Dec 10 20:39:11 2001
From: cypherpunks at penn.com (cypherpunks at penn.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:39:11
Subject: GUARANTEED way to have more CREDIT FOR THE HOLIDAYS!! Time:8:39:11 PM
Message-ID: <200112110530.XAA03926@einstein.ssz.com>


Dear cyphlust,


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program to quickly get a new, legal, unblemished credit file and 
establish Excellent Credit. If you don't have bad credit, but
want to make your existing credit EXCELLENT, we will go straight
to STEP 5.

Step 1 - 
Because no two people in the United States have the same Social
Security Number, Banks and Creditors access your credit file 
almost entirely by your SS#. You will not want to change your
Social Security Number because it is extremely difficult to do 
so and you need it for your Employment, Taxes and Social 
Security Benefits. The FEDERAL PRIVACY ACT OF 1974 clearly
states that only the Government and your employer can force you 
to use your SS#. Because of this law you are allowed to legally
use another 9 digit number to use in place of your Social
Security # on credit applications. 

The first day you become our client, you will receive your own
number through the Employer Identification Number Program. You
will need us for this because 95% of all Employer Identification
Numbers, although 9 digits, do not look anything like Social
Security Numbers and cannot be used on credit applications.
We will legally get you an Employer Identification Number that 
fits in the same range of Social Numbers in use today. Because 
the Federal Laws do not require you to give your SS# to anyone
besides your Employer and the Government, you can now legally 
use this number in place of your SS# on credit applications. 
Remember, your new number will only be used for new credit. 

Step 2 - 
No two people with the same name have the same mailing address,
so you will need to obtain a new mailing address for use on your
new credit file. A friend, relative or mailbox address in your
area will be perfect.

Step 3 - 
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so you will also need a new telephone number for use on your
new credit file. A friend, relative, voice mail or pager will 
again work perfectly.

Step 4 - 
With your new Social Security number, new address and new
telephone number we will open your new credit file. It will now 
be totally impossible for any creditor to know anything about
your past credit history.

Step 5-
To guarantee that you will quickly have EXCELLENT CREDIT, we
will assist you in instantly adding UNLIMITED positive
information to your credit file. This is an unknown way of 
adding real accounts to your new credit file to give you an 
Excellent Credit Rating in less than 15 days. As you know, the 
more positive information on your credit file, the more money 
banks will lend you. Countless clients of ours have credit lines
over $100,000 because of our Proven Credit Advantage Program!

When we are finished you will receive a copy of your credit
file proving that you now have excellent credit! This will take
less than 15 days. You will now be able to easily qualify for
ANY credit you apply for! To be on the road to EXCELLENT CREDIT
simply send us your name, complete mailing address including 
zip code and telephone number (optional), along with a check,
money order or credit card payable to American Financial Services
Inc. for $29.95. 

All necessary paperwork will be priority mailed to you within 
72 hours!

   $$$$ RISK FREE DOUBLE YOUR MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!!  $$$$

My Proven Credit Advantage Program unconditionally guarantees 
you will qualify for personal loans, business loans, credit 
cards, auto loans, home loans and any other credit you apply for!

If you are not able to qualify for credit after using my program, 
simply return your Proven Credit Advantage Program along with
your denial letter and your $29.95 investment will be refunded
DOUBLE! That's a $59.90 refund if this doesn't work like I said!

I make this guarantee to you because the Proven Credit Advantage
Program has already helped over 37,000 people just like you.
I KNOW it works - all you need to do is sign up TODAY! I truly 
look forward to making you another SATISFIED CLIENT!!

------------------Print & Cut Order Form---------------------
Yes! I deserve excellent credit. Please enroll me in the Proven
Credit Advantage Program. The following information is for our
records only and does not need to be your new credit file information.

	***       Please Print Carefully      ***

NOTE:  Orders cannot be processed without complete information.
Credit cards must including your signature. 
 
NAME____________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME____________________________________________

CURRENT ADDRESS_________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP________________________________________
 
PHONE NUMBER____________________________________________
 
EMAIL ADDRESS___________________________________________

TYPE OF PAYMENT:

______CHECK/MONEY ORDER 
(Payable to American Financial Services Inc.)

Credit Card orders please complete the following:
 
______VISA ______MASTERCARD _______AMEX_______


CREDIT CARD# __________________________________________
 
EXPIRATION DATE________________________________________
 
NAME ON CARD___________________________________________
 
TOTAL AMOUNT $29.95

DATE:x__________________

SIGNATURE(Required):x_________________________________

___ Please e-mail me my PROVEN CREDIT ADVANTAGE PROGRAM to the 
    above e-mail address.

___ Please send me my PROVEN CREDIT ADVANTAGE PROGRAM via 
    United States Priority Mail to the above address.


For CREDIT CARD ORDERS you may fax this form to us.
1-310-934-6110    1-310-934-6110     1-310-934-6110.

For Check by FAX orders:
.........................................................
Attach a completed and signed check here. Simply paste check 
here and FAX. 
1-310-934-6110    1-310-934-6110     1-310-934-6110.

Or mail to:
American Financial Services Inc.
Attn: Mike Robbins
311 N. Robertson Blvd.
Suite 625
Beverly Hills, CA 90210




From cypherpunks at earthlink.com  Mon Dec 10 20:40:12 2001
From: cypherpunks at earthlink.com (cypherpunks at earthlink.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:40:12
Subject: GUARANTEED way to have more CREDIT FOR THE HOLIDAYS!! Time:8:40:12 PM
Message-ID: <200112110444.fBB4iGDL014366@ak47.algebra.com>


Dear cypr3ss,


$$  GUARANTEED WAY TO QUICKLY HAVE EXCELLENT CREDIT!!  $$


Dear Friend,

Give yourself the ADVANTAGE of enjoying life more with EXCELLENT
CREDIT!! Over the past 8 years I have perfected a system called
the Proven Credit Advantage Program. It's a guaranteed way for
legally getting an excellent credit rating almost instantly. 
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From tbr at bora.com  Mon Dec 10 20:52:08 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:52:08 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <3C1590F8.DB831862@bora.com>


At 10:17 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>Jim seems to have missed out on teenagerhood.CJ seems not to have left
>teenagerhood.The boiling pot is like darwins discovery of evolution,It

The personal flaws of an author do not detract from his ideas.  We even
tolerate your unmedicated rants for the same reason.   Cf Rand and
her affair.  Condit does not count.




From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Mon Dec 10 20:53:19 2001
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:53:19 -0800
Subject: FW: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
Message-ID: <00da01c181ff$c0e4d3b0$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>


While I am too far from the process to offer comment to the contents of
the post below, the last paragraph of the post in some bizarre way did
help crystallize a thought that I knew had been nagging in the back of
my mind for months, perhaps as much of a year, but that I just could not
quite bring to the foreground.

FreeS/WAN occupies a position very rarely found in efficient markets,
such as open source software. While the position is rarely encountered,
it can nonetheless exist: I believe that FreeS/WAN is a natural
monopoly.

Natural monopolies are usually only found in extremely small markets.
The economic textbook example is a power company on an island of 50
people. The market size is simply too small to sustain the overhead of
two companies, no matter how efficient both companies may become.
Therefore, the market doesn't attract competitors, even absent any
regulatory market distortions. (Hence the "natural" in "natural
monopoly" :-)

But for whatever reasons, FreeS/WAN has been holding such a natural
monopoly position in by far the largest market in which I have ever seen
such a beast. I find this fascinating. I wonder if economists will some
day study the case to determine what factors brought it about.

[I presume somebody other than the FreeS/WAN project may have written a
few lines of Linux open source IPSec code, but they aren't competitors
in that market any more than a guy walking around with a charged car
battery offering service would be a competitor to the power company in
the island example].

--Lucky, who simply had to share this revelation. Back to writing
Mixmaster remailer code.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-cypherpunks at lne.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at lne.com] On
Behalf Of Anonymous
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:54 PM
To: cypherpunks at lne.com; cryptography at wasabisystems.com
Subject: RE: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!


On Sunday 09 December 2001 07:32 pm, Lucky Green
 wrote:
> The big question is: will FreeS/WAN latest release after some 4 or 5
> years of development finally both compile and install cleanly on 
> current versions of Red Hat Linux, FreeS/WAN's purported target 
> platform?

The latest releases of both Suse and Mandrake are both able to install
kernels with Freeswan already integrated.  It's a little newer addition
to Mandrake, so you may want to use Suse.  Suse makes it easy to set up
encrypted file systems and other nice features.

The major problem that holds back the development of FreeS/WAN is with
its management.  [Management that cares more about sitting on its
pulpit, than getting useful software into the hands of people.] Unless
things have changed recently, they still won't accept contributions from
the US.  This makes no sense.  GPG is shipping with every Linux
distribution I know of, and the German's take contributions from the US.

The primary kernel developers have been willing to integrate crypto into
the kernel since the crypto regs were lowered.  It's the policy of no US
contributions that's holding back Linux IPSEC.

IMHO:  If Freeswan had never been created, an alternate, more mature
implementation would already exist in the mainline Linux kernel.

--Anonymous




From tbr at bora.com  Mon Dec 10 20:57:46 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:57:46 -0800
Subject: N-grams and the state
Message-ID: <3C15924A.78F42B7D@bora.com>


At 11:25 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>"...What are N-Grams? N-Gram Analysis is a a method patented by the NSA
..."
>
>"You spooks are a bunch of gray, snivelling, alcoholic, Aldrich Ames
>lookalikes driving around in your rusty Toyotas."

Perhaps, but this does not negate the discriminative value of n-grams.




From SubscribeMail at advanced.visitbrightstar.com  Mon Dec 10 13:01:01 2001
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Date: 10 Dec 2001 21:01:01 -0000
Subject: Please CONFIRM your SUBSCRIPTION to our list
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From tbr at bora.com  Mon Dec 10 21:01:04 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:01:04 -0800
Subject: OT Kleist's "Michael Kohlhaas"
Message-ID: <3C159310.D2FC085A@bora.com>


At 09:07 PM 12/10/01 -0500, Agent Faustine wrote:
>In case you haven't read it, here's a partial synopsis of Heinrich von
>Kleist's "Michael Kohlhaas", written in 1810....
>
>In Michael Kohlhaas, Heinrich von Kleist tells the grim story of how a
>relatively small injustice escalates almost into civic insurrection. It
is the
>story of the wealthy horse trader Michael Kohlhaas.

Sounds like copyright infringement on Keyzer Soze's story.

Or various future characters..




From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec 10 21:04:04 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:04:04 -0800
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011210210404.009b1100@pop.sprynet.com>


At 09:48 PM 12/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> To rip the coin, the passenger gives the taxi driver t = s^e1, along
>> with x.  The driver can verify that t^e2 = s^(e1*e2) = s^e1 = x mod n
>> which tells him that it is a real coin.  He also sends (t, x) to the
>> bank, which verifies that no such x has been spent before (no double
>> spending) and also stores x as a ripped coin such that only the driver
>> can spend it.
>
>Who pays for all this checking? Not only does this require the taxi driver
>to have a considerable store of computational and algorithmic 'equipment'
>but he's also got to have a comm channel to the bank.
>
>This don't sound cheap to execute at all...

Oh, you mean like the $5 charge that Mastercard/Visa charge merchants...

this *corroborates* the stuff Hettinga has been saying about it being
cheaper to use certain kinds of payment than others.



 






  







From gnu at toad.com  Mon Dec 10 21:04:31 2001
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:04:31 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To:  
Message-ID: <200112110504.VAA27366@toad.com>


Anonymous said:
> The major problem that holds back the development of FreeS/WAN is
> with its management.  [Management that cares more about sitting on
> its pulpit, than getting useful software into the hands of people.]
> Unless things have changed recently, they still won't accept
> contributions from the US.  This makes no sense.  GPG is shipping
> with every Linux distribution I know of, and the German's take
> contributions from the US.

(From the pulpit:)

Once we kick John Asscroft's unconstitutional ash outta town, bush
George Bust along with more than a thousand other innocents, and
eliminate the spectre of Judd Gregg and other retrograde stalinists
're-regulating' US crypto, then we'll think about polluting the
precious bodily fluids of worldwide freeware privacy protection with
the stench of US crypto policy.  It probably won't happen for a few months.

Or hadn't you noticed that the US government is not in much of a mood
to follow the constitution or to tolerate dissent or privacy among the
sleepy sheeplike citizens?  They're doing their best to stamp that
radical stuff out right here in the USSA, let alone let it cross the
border into parts of the world that they don't have firmly under their
thumb.  Less than 100% support for every paranoid and senseless twitch
of the current Administration is a demonstration not not only of
treason but of active support for terrorism, which everyone knows is a
terrible thing except when the US or Israel or Great Britain does it.
Anybody reading this mailing list is already gonna be first up against
the wall once the joy of arresting immigrant movers as 'terrorists'
fades, and spying on 'domestic political groups' become fair game.
Your packets are already in the lint screen on that big, big vacuum
cleaner.  And our new policy of maximum sentences for trivial
'crimes', like forgetting to file some form, reduces the expense and
bother of actually trying suspects for the crimes that the agencies
suspect them of.  Of course you can confront your accusers!  Did you or
did you not jaywalk across Route 1 last July, Mr. May?

> The primary kernel developers have been willing to integrate crypto
> into the kernel since the crypto regs were lowered.  It's the policy
> of no US contributions that's holding back Linux IPSEC.

The reason I started the IPSEC-for-Linux project those many years ago
was because Linux kernel releases used to be built in free countries,
unlike the releases of most other operating systems.  Now they aren't.
Oops.

Perhaps mr. or ms. 'anonymous' and the primary kernel developers
didn't spend seven years making a principled tilt at the windmill of
NSA's export controls.  We overturned them by a pretty thin margin.
The government managed to maneuver such that no binding precedents
were set: if they unilaterally change the regulations tomorrow to
block the export of public domain crypto, they wouldn't be violating
any court orders or any judicial decisions.  I.e. they are not BOUND
by the policy change.  They changed it "voluntarily", in order to
sneak out of the court cases by the back door.  Even today it is
sometimes said that once Dan Bernstein ends his court case (which
still continues today), the NSA is ready, willing, and able to slap
the controls right back on.  And it would take months or years in
court -- and lots more volunteer citizen money spent for freedom,
while the bastards spend tax money to lock us up -- to get the
controls removed again.  If the judges haven't changed their minds in
the meantime.

(You may have noticed that last month, the Second Circuit Court of
Appeals accpted Judge Kaplan's half-lies-half-truth judgment 3-0 in
the 2600 case appeal: Yes, absolutely, software is First Amendment
protected speech.  But no, somehow the First Amendment really doesn't
mean what it means elsewhere; of *course* they can regulate the
publication of software on flimsy grounds.  Like that sometime later,
somebody somewhere might potentially be somewhat hurt by something
somebody else does with the software, if we don't eliminate that
option by restricting the publication of that software now.  Suppose
the next crypto export court case happens in NY rather than CA?  EFF
would be proud to defend John Young and Perry Metzger, but all its
lawyers might be in prison, charged by John Asscroft with "aiding
terrorists by eroding our national unity and diminishing our
resolve".)

> IMHO: If Freeswan had never been created, an alternate, more mature
> implementation would already exist in the mainline Linux kernel.

Make my day.

	John Gilmore

PS: Of course, the only software worth wasting your time on comes from
those macho dudes of the U.S. of A.  Those furriners don't even know
how to speek the lingua proper, let alone write solid buggy code like
Microsoft.  High crypto math is all Greek to them.  It's just lucky
for Linus that he moved to the US, otherwise we'd all know his furrin
software was crap too, even tho he tricked us by cloning it from Bell Labs.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Mon Dec 10 18:07:41 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:07:41 -0500
Subject: OT Kleist's "Michael Kohlhaas"
Message-ID: <200112110207.VAA30167@mail.lokmail.net>

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From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec 10 21:13:23 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:13:23 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011210203527.009bab80@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011210211323.009c4c40@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:16 PM 12/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>And no, a meritocracy isn't disriminatory. You get what you put into it,
>not what somebody else thinks it's worth.

Merit is inevitably judged by "somebody else".  And discriminating
on the basis of merit is tautologically discriminatory.

D'oh.



 






  







From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Dec 10 21:38:20 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:38:20 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011210211323.009c4c40@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011210213820.009c71e0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 11:33 PM 12/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
>> Merit is inevitably judged by "somebody else".  And discriminating
>> on the basis of merit is tautologically discriminatory.
>
>Actually 'merit' isn't. Merit is measured in a meritocracy by the efficacy
>of the solution. That's a TECHNICAL measure, not emotional or social.

But who is the judge of the value of various measures? 


>Discrimination is inherently ILLOGICAL (ie emotional), which puts it in
>direct odds with the concept of 'merit'.

No, you're taking the PC distortion of the word.  Without discrimination
(of food vs. poison, or good vs. bad behavior for instance) you are dead.

Keep your immune system up.



 






  







From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Mon Dec 10 21:42:36 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:42:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
Message-ID: <200112110542.fBB5gai08637@artifact.psychedelic.net>


There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against "evil."

McCarthyism meets Wounded Knee meets Mike Echols. :)

-----

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- A University of New Mexico history professor who
joked in class about the Sept. 11 attacks has been barred from teaching
freshmen for now, the school said Monday.

Professor Richard Berthold will also get a letter of reprimand and undergo
review, said Brian L. Foster, university provost.

The 55-year-old tenured professor told a freshman history class just after
the attacks that "anyone who can blow up the Pentagon has my vote."

Berthold has apologized for his comment, which he called "an incredibly
stupid joke." He did not immediately return a phone call Monday.

Berthold stayed off campus for a brief period while police investigated
obscene and threatening calls to the history department. He also said he
was assaulted in front of his home.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 19:48:00 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:48:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> To rip the coin, the passenger gives the taxi driver t = s^e1, along
> with x.  The driver can verify that t^e2 = s^(e1*e2) = s^e1 = x mod n
> which tells him that it is a real coin.  He also sends (t, x) to the
> bank, which verifies that no such x has been spent before (no double
> spending) and also stores x as a ripped coin such that only the driver
> can spend it.

Who pays for all this checking? Not only does this require the taxi driver
to have a considerable store of computational and algorithmic 'equipment'
but he's also got to have a comm channel to the bank.

This don't sound cheap to execute at all...


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Dec 10 12:50:24 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:50:24 +0100 (CET)
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
Message-ID: <0b6888eaf9844ca38eee29b1d175ab8f@dizum.com>


John Young writes, regarding Assassination Politics:

> AP is a touchy topic for Cypherpunks, whoever they may
> be. It is likely the USA is attempting to link AP to Cypherpunks
> for prosecution, so not many will want to talk about the
> topic.

Cypherpunks pioneered the use of encryption and anonymity for many
purposes, but one of them was precisely this: to allow discussion of
forbidden subjects.

> So my opinion is that AP is a lure set out by the authorities
> to entrap the unwary, Cypherpunks among them. I believe 
> that Bell and Johnson have been, and are continuing to be, 
> a part of that lure, whether witting or unwitting.

That's bullshit.  Surely you can't deny that AP was conceived by
Bell exactly as what it was claimed to be, a tool to be used against
government agents who overstep their authority and violate the rights of
American citizens.  (And as an important consequence it would therefore
encourage governments to behave legally and respectfully towards their
citizens, as they should.)  Bell certainly did not conceive of AP as a
way of entrapping cypherpunks.  He didn't even know about cypherpunks
when he came up with the idea.

> AP is highy suspect, and becoming more so as it gets
> additional promotion, not by whatever adherents it may
> have but by its opponents. I expect AP to be used to
> advance the anti-terrorism industry now booming.
>
> Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable
> technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke
> on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt.

Total bullshit again.  Sure, AP requires anonymous digital cash, but so do
most other elements of the cypherpunk vision.  Would you say that crypto
anarchy, information black markets, and commerce among pseudonyms are
"a joke"?  These are just as hypothetical as AP at present.  It's entirely
possible that some form of anonymous cash will be developed in the
next few years, and once that happens AP will be trivial to implement.
It's far from a joke, it is a very real possibility.

AP is part of the dark side of the cypherpunk dream and it must be faced
rather than evaded.  The real problem with AP is not that it would be
illegal, because much of what cypherpunks call for is presently illegal.
Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.  There
are no checks and balances.  It is the height of folly to suppose that
AP would be used only against those whom cypherpunks themselves oppose,
like corrupt government agents.  AP could be used against anyone who
has a high profile.

If AP were implemented, there is no question but that Jim Bell would
be one of the first targets!  All those people who found himself on
his list, along with their heirs and successors, would want revenge.
Everyone involved with the assassinations would be anonymous except
Bell himself, making him the most prominent target of their wrath.
Other notable supporters of crypto anarchy would follow soon, such as
cypherpunk founders May and Hughes.  The people involved with the digital
cash would be targets as well, and so on.

Despite these unpleasant facts, once digital cash exists, AP will be
inevitable, along with many other forms of anonymous murder-for-hire.
Cypherpunks have discussed these possibilities from the very beginning.
To pretend that AP is somehow outside of the scope of cypherpunk thinking,
a hoax or joke perpetrated by outsiders as a lure, is just absurd.
With crypto anarchy you have to take the bad with the good.

What, then, is the solution to survival in a world of assassins at large?
It is simple, and it is in fact the same as the solution to the problem
of how to discuss AP in a world in which even mentioning it could get
you arrested, the problem which led to John Young's dissembling above.
Perhaps the alert reader will be able to conceive of the solution for
himself.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 20:08:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:08:15 -0600
Subject: The Fading Altruism of Open Source Development
Message-ID: <3C1586AF.3D12BE34@ssz.com>


http://firstmonday.org/issues/issue6_12/lancashire/
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 20:35:39 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:35:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211105738.00a42aa0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



Look into Pantheism (but avoid 'Scientific Pantheism' it isn't)...

On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> "A lesson to be learned by the politico-religio-righteous."
> 
> Thanks jya,leads me to my next riff.Religon.The huge success of ayn 
> rantings 'objectivist' philosophy arguably
> led to the ripe fruitiness of scientology.
> Well what the hells stopping us?
> The bells rung for everything faith based up to executions(jokingly) 
> Churchs still tax exempt? Good.
> Still get your religious peyote? Yep.
> WTF are we spinning our wheels here for.Change the name to cyphersaints 
> immediately and make it cryptoheaven
> not cryptoanarchy.
> On the holy bible the cyphernomicon I swear to practise no usury in my 
> ecash dealings and may AP strike me dead should I sin.mattd.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From schear at lvcm.com  Mon Dec 10 23:08:04 2001
From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:08:04 -0800
Subject: eCash reported mortally wounded...
In-Reply-To: <2ccae0c4f1f4a0391d91944a0067b932@mix.winterorbit.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011210230412.04097668@pop3.lvcm.com>


At 05:52 AM 12/11/2001 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>Lucky Green wrote:
> > Eugene wrote:
> > > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Lucky Green wrote:
> > >
> > > > --Lucky, waiting patiently for 2005.
> > >
> > > Patent expiration date? Which one?
> >
> > US Patent 4759063 "Blind Signature Systems" will expire on July 19,
> > 2005. Given that this is a Tuesday and taking into account that whoever
> > may own the patents at that time is not about to file a patent
> > infringement suit on Monday, the last day the patent is valid, I hereby
> > announce a patent expiration party at my place on Saturday, July 16
> > 2005.
>
>No need to wait so long for ecash implementations.  Ben Laurie's Lucre
>software uses Wagner blinding, which is a non-signature based blinding
>system.  The coin can only be verified by the bank, contrary to the
>definition of a digital signature, so the blind signature patent does
>not apply.  Read more at http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/.

No need to wait at all.  There was never any serious reason to license the 
Chaum blinding patents upon which eCash rested. They applied only to the 
client and their use was or could be made invisible to the mint. Software 
patents, including Chaum's, are not enforceable in a number of western 
nations (e.g., Australia, South Africa and New Zealand). Therefore, the 
development and release of client software with user selectable blinding, 
with appropriate UI warnings regarding possible patent issues depending 
upon client jurisdiction, from these locales should not run afoul of 
international patent laws.

steve




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:14:41 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:14:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011210210404.009b1100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> this *corroborates* the stuff Hettinga has been saying about it being
> cheaper to use certain kinds of payment than others.

Actually Hettinga's observation is rather obvious. The concept that all
exchanges will cost the same is rather self-destructing.

Nothing newe there.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From gnu at toad.com  Mon Dec 10 23:15:25 2001
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:15:25 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: <00da01c181ff$c0e4d3b0$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO> 
Message-ID: <200112110715.XAA00591@toad.com>


> FreeS/WAN occupies a position very rarely found in efficient markets,
> such as open source software. While the position is rarely encountered,
> it can nonetheless exist: I believe that FreeS/WAN is a natural
> monopoly.
> ...
> But for whatever reasons, FreeS/WAN has been holding such a natural
> monopoly position in by far the largest market in which I have ever seen
> such a beast. I find this fascinating. I wonder if economists will some
> day study the case to determine what factors brought it about.

I doubt it.

The Linux kernels released by Linus Torvalds hold a similar 'natural
monopoly' over every other variant of free operating system kernel.  What
could explain this puzzling economic phenomenon?  Certainly the BSD folks
have been puzzled by it.

I mean, half a dozen people have rewritten 'grep', because it's just
not that hard.  And troff was cloned even though it was hard, because
the original was such a piece of unmaintainable (and nonfree) crud.
But you and you and you are all free to make your own variant of the
Linux kernel, and keep maintaining it and throwing in improvements.
Why don't you?  Even big companies keep following Linus's version.

Perhaps the puzzle results from someone who does a sufficiently hard
job, sufficiently well, that nobody who is actually capable of
competing WANTS to compete.  They have better things to do.

What puzzles me is how the mediocre X Window System has attracted no
competitors.  Yes, it's a hard job supporting all those hardware
variants by all those lovely undocumented proprietary companies.  But
the X model sucks on SO many fronts, breaking typeahead/mouseahead,
performance, display independence, having dozens of puzzling and
incompatible window managers, etc.

And have you looked at the 'object oriented' stuff layered on top of it?

  743 root      17   0 50896  44M  6320 S     0.7 36.0 15292m X
  874 gnu       11   0 14648  10M  3148 S     0.3  8.6  13:30 gnome-terminal

That's a 50Mbyte process (44M resident) of window drivers, and a
14Mbyte (10M resident) terminal window that I'm typing into.  I've
seen the terminal window get as high as 60 Mbytes, with more than 50
resident.

	John




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:16:27 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:16:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011210203527.009bab80@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 09:53 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
> >Tim said its an openly elitist list 
> >once.
> 
> Yes, so is an university.  A meritocracy is necessarily discriminatory.
> 
> Deal with it.

Don't confuse having a high standard of excellence with simple egotism
(which is the majority of the cases with both your examples).

And no, a meritocracy isn't disriminatory. You get what you put into it,
not what somebody else thinks it's worth.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:33:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:33:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011210211323.009c4c40@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 11:16 PM 12/10/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >And no, a meritocracy isn't disriminatory. You get what you put into it,
> >not what somebody else thinks it's worth.
> 
> Merit is inevitably judged by "somebody else".  And discriminating
> on the basis of merit is tautologically discriminatory.

Actually 'merit' isn't. Merit is measured in a meritocracy by the efficacy
of the solution. That's a TECHNICAL measure, not emotional or social.

Discrimination is inherently ILLOGICAL (ie emotional), which puts it in
direct odds with the concept of 'merit'.

Further, a meritocracy makes judgements about worth based on the solution
not the source. Source filtering is inherent in discrimination, hence they
can't be synonymous or layered.

> D'oh.

Doh indeed.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Mon Dec 10 14:47:55 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:47:55 +0100
Subject: in praise of gold
Message-ID: <6ce3470ddd680b351ad9e983c8442b58@mix.winterorbit.com>


[A repost of an earlier message regarding gold]

> It's true - so why not say it? A hundred years ago, the Federal Reserve
> "dollar" didn't exist, and a hundred years hence it won't be there. The
> gold will still exist. Which is the better standard of value?
>
> Marc de Piolenc

If you really want to look at 100 year time scales, gold is completely
unsuitable as a standard of value.

Over the next 100 years it is highly likely that we will develop new
technologies which will totally change what we think of as valuable.
Nanotechnology and similar methods will allow atom by atom restructuring
of matter.  Gold and other elements can be extracted from sea water
or from the soil.  Space mining will open access to mineral stores on
other planets.  Low cost, solar powered low-energy orbits can bring
these resources back to earth.

With all the changes that we are going to be seeing over the next
100 years, what are the chances that one particular metal is going to
turn out to have anywhere near the same value that it has today?  It is
far more likely that the relative prices of all the elements will vary
greatly from what we have known in the past.

Look at a chart of the abundances of the elements in the earth's crust,
and in the terrestrial planets.  These represent "supply" of matter in the
future.  Demand will come from how useful these elements are in supplying
people's needs.  Carbon may well turn out to be a highly valuable element
due to its great flexibility, strength, its biological role, and its
relative rarity.  Diamonds will be no more valuable than soot, of course,
but both will be excellent raw materials for nanotech construction.

Or they may not.  We don't know enough now.  But we can certainly say
that any money based on the rarity of an elemental commodity faces the
prospect of being highly unstable as we move into the nanotech regime.

On the other hand, fiat moneys can be based on contract and mutual
agreement.  With cryptographic protection, account balances are
transferred securely.  And as multiple money issuers (the US Fed among
others) compete in an international market, the global money supply will
be self adjusting, as predicted by economic models.

This is the true foundation for an economically stable future.  Atoms are
the past; bits are the future.  Money is becoming information, with
checks and balances already in place to control the global money supply.
In contrast, basing the future economic system on the spatial distribution
of metallic atoms would be foolish.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Dec 10 23:57:30 2001
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:57:30 -0800
Subject: Customer Acts Odd? U.S. Wants to Know
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20011210234332.039c68f0@idiom.com>


At 09:54 AM 12/10/2001 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/10/national/10CUST.html?searchpv=nytToday&pagewanted=print
>WASHINGTON, Dec. 9 - Federal agents are planning to fan out across the
>country this week in an effort to recruit American businesses in the war on
>terror, urging companies to notify the government of suspicious customers. 
>[...]
>The terrorists' shopping list, the Customs Service says, includes missiles,
>grenades, grenade launchers and other munitions; aircraft parts; computer
>encryption devices; and components of biological, chemical and nuclear
>weapons, as well as items that might be used to manufacture or deliver 
>such weapons. [...]
>..... certain signs of suspicious activity, including these:
>...
>6A buyer has little or no understanding of the product he or she is
>requesting or the commercial activity in which he or she is supposedly 
>engaged.
...
>6A buyer has no interest in the customer service offered with a product or
>rejects the manufacturer's offer to train employees in proper use of the 
>product.

Suspicious?  Those are simply *routine* in the telecom and computer 
businesses :-)
You'd think that they'd find it suspicious of customers *did* read all the 
manuals,
closely, in great detail.  It's less common now after the dot-com crash
than during the heat of tulip-bulb mania, but if customers really 
understood technology
there'd be less need for data sales people to bring along systems engineers
to wave their hands and tell them what to think, or for companies to hire
lots of customer support people to explain how to reset the coffee-cup 
holders on PCs,
or for trade rags and internet sites to keep hyping new trends.

Meanwhile, the technologies and economics are constantly changing in the 
business,
so even if a customer or vendor understood what they were doing three 
months ago,
that doesn't mean they still understand it today.

Now, I don't sell missiles or grenade launchers, but computer encryption 
devices
are part of my stock in trade - they're letting customers move from dedicated
private lines and semi-shared frame relay and ATM networks to shared 
Internet connections
and still get the privacy and security they got from the more expensive 
networks,
and tools for cracking computer security devices are also routine 
commercial product,
just like pressure gauges for checking car tires or chemical emissions 
detectors for
car exhaust.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Mon Dec 10 22:18:20 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:18:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: <200112110504.VAA27366@toad.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, John Gilmore wrote:

> NSA's export controls.  We overturned them by a pretty thin margin.
> The government managed to maneuver such that no binding precedents
> were set: if they unilaterally change the regulations tomorrow to
> block the export of public domain crypto, they wouldn't be violating
> any court orders or any judicial decisions.  I.e. they are not BOUND
> by the policy change.

That's not accurate. There have been several court rulings finding source
code and such protected by the 1st. This would provide a lever that was
not there previously.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 00:26:47 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:26:47 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <3C149B18.2BED906C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3C1552C7.40.D4C31B@localhost>


    --
On 10 Dec 2001, at 11:23, Ken Brown wrote:
> About 3 years ago I found out that I could understand some 
> of your postings by exchanging the  words "socialism" for 
> "capitalism" when ever they occurred -  you fell for the 
> Soviet lie that called their oppressive state capitalism by 
> the name of "socialism"...

If that was a lie, then it is odd that until Khruschev
renounced Stalin, the entire left fell for it.  I have
frequently commented on Chomsky's extraordinary servility
towards Soviet foreign policy.

Even to this day the socialists white wash Sihanouk, because 
though he was murdering real and suspected communists 
internally, he served Soviet foreign policy in external 
affairs.


    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     RmPRRwv70zSuTkYU+smeyfgtiK/+vkrGKoiVI4ew
     4eGRNHwI044Lhif5a65dau79zOgEKfauvhe1kMCrB




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Mon Dec 10 17:46:04 2001
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 02:46:04 +0100 (CET)
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
Message-ID: 


"George" writes:

> Th idea is,  when buying some good or service with
> digital cash,  the customer first forwards the cash to the vendor
> in some transformed way such that the vendor 
> can't yet spend it, but can verify that it is
> good cash of the correct amount, and that 
> the customer will no longer be able to spend it.
>
> The idea is, if the vendor follows through on his side,
> the customer will supply the additional information the
> vendor will need to redeem the cash.  The customer can still
> rip the vendor off by refusing to do so, but he has no incentive,
> the money's already gone for him.  Conversely,  an
> unscrupulous "vendor" could in principle trick a customer
> into throwing away money on nothing,  but he would gain no profit
> in doing so.

Yep, see Marcus Jakobsson, "Ripping Coins for Fair Exchange",
http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/users/markus/rip.ps.  The idea is analogous to
tearing a $100 bill in half and giving half to the taxi driver so he'll
wait while you go take care of some business.  The two halves together
are worth $100, but either alone is worthless.  Once you give him the
first half you're out $100, so you have no incentive to cheat him by
not giving the other half when you come back.

A simplification of Jakobsson's scheme works with Chaumian blinded cash
where the bank's RSA exponent e = e1*e2, where e1 > 1 is an odd integer
and e2 is prime.

The passenger (in the taxi example) withdrew the coin by choosing a
value x which had some special structure, blinding it and getting a
signature s on x such that s^e = x, mod n.  To spend the coin normally
he would reveal x and s which the bank would accept as it satisfies this
relation.

To rip the coin, the passenger gives the taxi driver t = s^e1, along
with x.  The driver can verify that t^e2 = s^(e1*e2) = s^e1 = x mod n
which tells him that it is a real coin.  He also sends (t, x) to the
bank, which verifies that no such x has been spent before (no double
spending) and also stores x as a ripped coin such that only the driver
can spend it.

When the passenger comes back he gives the taxi driver s, the real RSA
signature, so the driver can now spend the coin for good.  The passenger
can't renege and spend the coin himself because the driver has put a
block on that x value in the database.




From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Mon Dec 10 19:54:06 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 04:54:06 +0100
Subject: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
Message-ID: 


On Sunday 09 December 2001 07:32 pm, Lucky Green  wrote:
> The big question is: will FreeS/WAN latest release after some 4 or 5 
> years of development finally both compile and install cleanly on 
> current versions of Red Hat Linux, FreeS/WAN's purported target 
> platform?

The latest releases of both Suse and Mandrake are both able to install kernels with Freeswan already integrated.  It's a little newer addition to Mandrake, so you may want to use Suse.  Suse makes it easy to set up encrypted file systems and other nice features.

The major problem that holds back the development of FreeS/WAN is with its management.  [Management that cares more about sitting on its pulpit, than getting useful software into the hands of people.] Unless things have changed recently, they still won't accept contributions from the US.  This makes no sense.  GPG is shipping with every Linux distribution I know of, and the German's take contributions from the US.

The primary kernel developers have been willing to integrate crypto into the kernel since the crypto regs were lowered.  It's the policy of no US contributions that's holding back Linux IPSEC.

IMHO:  If Freeswan had never been created, an alternate, more mature implementation would already exist in the mainline Linux kernel.

--Anonymous




From silveredge18 at mediaone.net  Tue Dec 11 05:18:44 2001
From: silveredge18 at mediaone.net (Early Bird)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 05:18:44
Subject: 2 Airfare vouchers for $49.95
Message-ID: <200112111033.EAA05555@einstein.ssz.com>


Sign up today and receive two round trip airfare vouchers, open dated for 18 months!  You will also 
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From nobody at mix.winterorbit.com  Mon Dec 10 20:52:22 2001
From: nobody at mix.winterorbit.com (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 05:52:22 +0100
Subject: eCash reported mortally wounded...
Message-ID: <2ccae0c4f1f4a0391d91944a0067b932@mix.winterorbit.com>


Lucky Green wrote:
> Eugene wrote:
> > On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Lucky Green wrote:
> > 
> > > --Lucky, waiting patiently for 2005.
> > 
> > Patent expiration date? Which one?
>
> US Patent 4759063 "Blind Signature Systems" will expire on July 19,
> 2005. Given that this is a Tuesday and taking into account that whoever
> may own the patents at that time is not about to file a patent
> infringement suit on Monday, the last day the patent is valid, I hereby
> announce a patent expiration party at my place on Saturday, July 16
> 2005.

No need to wait so long for ecash implementations.  Ben Laurie's Lucre
software uses Wagner blinding, which is a non-signature based blinding
system.  The coin can only be verified by the bank, contrary to the
definition of a digital signature, so the blind signature patent does
not apply.  Read more at http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/.




From 12 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 11 06:13:12 2001
From: 12 at yahoo.com (12 at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:13:12
Subject: Technical Consulting Services
Message-ID: <161.431403.529046@AO.O>



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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:35:33 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:35:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: <200112110715.XAA00591@toad.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, John Gilmore wrote:

> What puzzles me is how the mediocre X Window System has attracted no
> competitors.  Yes, it's a hard job supporting all those hardware

Dude, there are HUNDREDS of alternate GUI front-ends (the vast majority
are not compatible with X (aka MIT's Athens - there's your clue as to its
popularity). Unfortunately they don't get the technical backing to get a
significant 'bootstrap' percentage in the market up front. In other words,
when X got started back in the 80's there were no other GUI's that were
nearly that advanced. So people used it. By the time the market expanded
the number of alternative GUI's had a much harder time to get into the
market.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:45:32 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:45:32 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Free Software And Its Revolutionary Social Implications
Message-ID: <3C15FFEC.B77D2074@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/interviews/01/12/10/2225219.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:47:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:47:21 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | Google Expands Usenet Archive to 20 Years
Message-ID: <3C160059.39C693CF@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/11/0727218.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:48:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:48:54 -0600
Subject: Slashdot | World Govs Choose Linux For Security & More
Message-ID: <3C1600B6.3DF75BFD@ssz.com>


http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/11/0132213.shtml
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 11 06:52:57 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:52:57 -0800
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011210213820.009c71e0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011211065257.009bf970@pop.sprynet.com>


At 12:13 AM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>No, I'm not. 'discrimination' requires(!) 'prejudice'. Prejudice is the

In Choate prime, perhaps.  For the rest of us, measurement (e.g., 
the redness vs greenness of a fruit) lets us discriminate useful from not.





 






  







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 04:54:10 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:54:10 -0600
Subject: Court: Online Scribes Protected
Message-ID: <3C1601F2.BF16D81B@ssz.com>


http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,48996,00.html
-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 11 07:00:14 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:00:14 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200112110715.XAA00591@toad.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011211070014.009c0650@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:35 AM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Dude, there are HUNDREDS of alternate GUI front-ends (the vast majority
>are not compatible with X (aka MIT's Athens - there's your clue as to its
>popularity). Unfortunately they don't get the technical backing to get a
>significant 'bootstrap' percentage in the market up front. In other words,
>when X got started back in the 80's there were no other GUI's that were
>nearly that advanced. So people used it. By the time the market expanded
>the number of alternative GUI's had a much harder time to get into the
>market.
>

MIT's project *Athena* developed X because they had an equal mix of DEC
and [I forget -IBM?] workstations and so developed a device independent
display server.  That it was subject to code bloat is regrettable but its use
is not mandatory.



 






  







From machine at twinstuff.com  Tue Dec 11 02:38:36 2001
From: machine at twinstuff.com (machine at twinstuff.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:38:36 -0300
Subject: Plan Canje Unico !!
Message-ID: <93986-2200112211103836900@twinstuff.com>



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From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 05:52:23 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:52:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <20011211133517.21136.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: 



On 11 Dec 2001, D.Popkin wrote:

> > Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.
> 
> Worse than the secret ballot?

AP *IS* a form of secret ballot.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 13:43:04 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:43:04 +1100
Subject: Jamesd on me is like soviet propaganda
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211082341.00a0a6c0@pop.useoz.com>


The trouble is that a lot of socialists call themselves
anarchists either as a simple cynical lie:
(parody of standard commie liar)
: : "This time the state really will wither away.
: : Trust us. We are different. Once we have total
: : power over you and yours you will love it."(jamesd,extract)


Yes,so? They are quite easy to expose and I pursue chomsky,Klein and others 
to pin them down.

(mattd extract)

The above is about 1 week old ,(Ive made  progress in tracing links between
klein and chompsky with the ISO.)

Well now jamesd comes up with..."except as mattd has recently done -- by citing
Chomsky as evidence for the truthfulness of Chomsky, much
after the fashion of a Christian who cites the bible as proof
of the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus as proof of the
infallibility of the bible."

When all Id done was ask cypherpunks to compare and contrast jamesd and 
chompsky on the specific
question of spain.
Those using the word anarchy might have some interest as might those 
wondering about the truthfulness (or sanity)
of cypherpunks regular jamesd.

I might just say at this point that I dont cite jim bell in the fashion of 
a christian...etc or indeed anyone.Im a skeptic as well as an 
anarchist."good business is where you find it"




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 09:09:07 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:09:07 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda 
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3C147AFA.13899.362FBE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C15CD33.4142.3370D1@localhost>


    --
James A Donald
> > And I have given numerous examples [of Chomsky 
> > misrepresenting his sources], to which no one has  
> > replied, except as mattd has recently done -- by citing  
> > Chomsky as evidence for the truthfulness of Chomsky, much 
> > after the fashion of a Christian who cites the bible as 
> > proof of the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus as proof of the 
> > infallibility of the bible.

On 10 Dec 2001, at 15:31, Jim Choate wrote:
> [text deleted]
>
> Not true. I've asked several times for clarification and 
> never(!!!) received anything from you in responce.

I just gave you a response, which you just deleted.   I may
not have given previous examples to you personally, but this
issue (bogus and misleading citations by Chomsky) has been
discussed on this list many times.

> I'll look into the text I deleted since it will take a few 
> minutes to review. I'll let you know what I think of your 
> analysis of Chomsky's views.

You did not ask for an analysis of Chomsky's views.  You 
asked for an example of Chomsky giving bogus citations.  I 
gave you some examples.  In your response, you will ignore 
those examples, and accuse me of misrepresenting Chomsky's 
views.

The fact that you are already preparing to change the subject 
shows that in your heart, you already knew that Chomsky's 
very impressive sounding citations were fictional.  

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     i6sJyKoEGKQnIBnjHkjh/Y2u1wf/omhSfIi6xIZW
     4/iQ7+vyJLulN7UttuCfQ2hNikb2qm3gqf+kGt7Jr




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 09:09:07 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:09:07 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <20011210145344.A21903@cluebot.com>
References: <3C1364B9.12109.C7FA8D@localhost>; from jamesd@echeque.com
  on Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 01:18:49PM -0800
Message-ID: <3C15CD33.16918.3370B3@localhost>


    --
James A. Donald:
> > For example the viewer sees CBU-15 described as nerve
> > gas. The viewer then sees Moorer and the interviewer
> > talking about a battle in Laos, then there is an editing
> > cut, and then the viewer sees:

On 10 Dec 2001, at 14:53, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I don't think your summary is correct. CNN hired an outside
> reviewer who came up with this report, which recommends
> retraction of the story but accuses the reporters of no
> malice: http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/02/tailwind.findings/

"No malice", not "no lies"

The reason he concludes "no malice" is that he concludes the
reporters really believed the US had used nerve gas, not
because he believes the reporters had truthfully reported the
evidence.  The edited Moorer seemingly admits to the use of
nerve gas, and another witness seemingly admits to personally
massacring civilians.  In the unedited versions, they do not.

The reason it was "no malice" is that the reporters actually
had some evidence -- but not evidence persuasive enough to
report on television.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     LU0N6i897F7dj1cMd1Rd3z4T8cvfH/3QdF6Yx98j
     4B2ygdObW0RForD1jMTcV2PBVSHc8W09z7xvkq3y9




From reinhold at world.std.com  Tue Dec 11 06:29:19 2001
From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:29:19 -0500
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 12:18 AM -0600 12/11/01, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, John Gilmore wrote:
>
>> NSA's export controls.  We overturned them by a pretty thin margin.
>> The government managed to maneuver such that no binding precedents
>> were set: if they unilaterally change the regulations tomorrow to
>> block the export of public domain crypto, they wouldn't be violating
>> any court orders or any judicial decisions.  I.e. they are not BOUND
>> by the policy change.
>
>That's not accurate. There have been several court rulings finding source
>code and such protected by the 1st. This would provide a lever that was
>not there previously.
>

In the most recent ruling, Universal v. Remerdez/Eric Corley 2600.com 
(00-9185), http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-cad.htm , the US Court of 
Appeals for the Second Circuit declined to overturn an injunction 
against the posting of DeCSS on the Internet. The Court held that 
software was speech, but did not enjoy the level of First Amendment 
protection accorded to pure speech because it is functional with 
little human intervention. This is a very disturbing precedent which 
I hope will be reversed on appeal, but given the post-9/11 mood and 
the limited technological understanding of most judges, I wouldn't 
count on it. Also I believe the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld export 
controls in the past, the First Amendment notwithstanding.

Having a body of open source crypto software that is not entangled by 
any U.S. input is not a foolish idea.  Surely there are good 
programers outside the U.S. who understand the importance of making 
FreeSWAN work seamlessly with Linux.


Arnold Reinhold



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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 14:35:37 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:35:37 +1100
Subject: AP Al Quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211092302.00a42eb0@pop.useoz.com>


I hope tech tv does a story on this that enlightens the victorian police 
and they return the dell cs latitude they stole from me.If AP is illegal I 
want my day in court.I mantain,with bell,that 'AP' comes with the territory 
and cant be outlawed without 1984 type totalitarianism.Some type of AP will 
help usher in ecash and crypto anarchy will take off.Peace,luv and happiness.

mattd AKA proffr1 at fuckmicrosoft.com

Subject: Macedon ranges Guardian.fri.june 8.page 3 headline story.
M1 PROTESTER GIVEN BAIL-BUT OTHER POLICE INTERESTED
A Kyneton man involved in the recent M1 protest in melb.has been accused of 
promoting what is
reffered to as 'assasination politics',and is said to have come to the 
notice of the United States
Secret Service and the Australian Federal Police.
Assasination politics,according to the police,is the practice of nominating 
a person for
assasination,inviting the general public to contribute money to a bank 
account and funding
the assasination with the proceeds.
Police charged Matthew Stephen Taylor last Friday over the vandelism of a 
McDonalds fast food outlet
during the anti-globalisation protest on may 1.
Charges are also pending against Taylor in relation to his alleged Internet 
activities.
On Monday Taylor,46 of Baynton st,Kyneton applied for bail at Kyneton 
Magistrates Court.Taylor faced
two counts of criminal damage and three counts of acting in a manner 
prejudicial to the good
order of a police jail.
As Taylor was led into court,he protested his innocence and described 
Bendigo remand where he
had spent the weekend as a 'hell hole'Inside the court he adressed 
Magistrate William Gibb as
"Your Highness"
He told Mr Gibb he disagreed with his position on drugs and compared it 
with the 1930s prohibition
on alcohol.He was reffering to the previous defendant who appeared on drug 
related charges.
Taylor was supported in court by his father,Ken Taylor,a Mount Macedon poet 
who was recently
awarded the Kenneth Slessor Prize for poetry at the New South Wales 
Premiers Awards.
Prosecutor,Senior Constable Martin Holland said Taylors application for 
bail was not opposed
but he asked Mr Gibb to impose six conditions.
The first condition was "not to post threatening text on the internet 
toward any person whether
located in Australia or elsewhere in the world"
Sen.Const Holland said Taylor had made threats on the internet and a 
computor from Taylors
Kyneton adress had been seized and conveyed to Melbourne for examination.
Sen.Cons.Holland defended the wording of the first condition by saying it 
was not a blanket
ban on all internet useage.
The second condition prohibited Taylor from participating in assasination 
politics.
...The third condition was not to engage any other person in the first two 
things.
The remaining conditions included a prohibition on Taylor participating in 
Melbourne
demonstrations.
Sen.Const.Holland said police had been watching Taylors activities on the 
website
www.indymedia.org with some interest.He said anyone could download 
information onto the
site.He said Taylor was known on the site as the 'nutty proffessor'and had 
posted a
message on the site to chief commissioner of victoria Police,Christine 
Nixon.Sen.Const.
Holland said the message stated that "...should you persist with this folly 
one of your
number will be selected for retirement,i.e.execution."
The prosecution called Senior Constable Nicholas Conte who said he had 
investigated video
and photographic footage from the May 1 protest,including video footage of 
Taylor in an
interview with Herald Sun journalist Peter Mickleburough.In it 
Sen.Conts.Conte said Taylor
reffered to himself as "Robin Banks."He said the name was on the indymedia 
website and was
traced back to Taylors adress by the computor Crime Unit.
He explained the concept of assasination politics to the court and said he 
believed it
originated in the United States where a man named Bell is currently under 
sentence in
relation to it.He said based on comments Taylor had made on the internet he 
believed the
defendant was advertising and trying to gain support for assasination 
politics.
"He doesnt make any qualms about that."Sen.Const.Conte said.
Asked by Mr Gibb what the reality of all this was,Sen.Const.Conte replied 
that he could not
gauge the reality,he could only look at the probability.
Under cross-examination from defense solicitor,Mr Cameron 
Ford,Sen.Const.Conte conceded
he did not know if assasination politics had ever resulted in an 
assasination or attempted
assasination.He said the investigation was continuing,with the Computor 
Crime Squad yet to
look at the content of Taylor's computor files.
Sen.Const.Holland said Taylors activities had attracted the attention of 
the US Secret Service
and Australian Federal police.
Mr Gibb said he did not doubt it,but expressed reservations about the 
conditions proposed for
Taylor's bail.
"It just seems to be a nonsense.Im being asked to impose all these 
conditions that bare no
relevance to the charges,"he said.
Mr Ford said the internet was something Taylor lives on and spends a great 
deal of time on.
"He would agree to not post threatening text on the internet,but that was 
as far as he was
prepared to go,"he said.
Mr Gibb released Taylor on bail with the condition that he not post 
threatening text on the
internet and continue to reside at his adress in Baynton 
street,Kyneton.Taylor was bailed to
appear before the Melbourne Magistrates Court on August 16.
END
A letter to this paper resulted in their publishing the further information 
that the police had
alleged me to be an anarchist where I stated that I was a may day 
celebrant(not m1 protestor)
to commemorate the judicial murder of the Chicago martyrs.several 
anarchists framed and hung in
Chicago's haymarket affair.I indicated that I was proud to be an anarchist 
and it was not illegal
to be one.This was cut from the main story for some reason.(copy of letter 
available on request
was published 1 week after story above.)Another local paper issued a 
clarification about me afterI rang them as they had described me as an M1 
protester.Spelling in the above article is 'as is'.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 14:53:04 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:53:04 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211094041.00a51de0@pop.useoz.com>


"Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst. There are 
no checks and balances. It is the height of folly to suppose that AP would 
be used only against those whom cypherpunks themselves oppose, like corrupt 
government agents. AP could be used against anyone who has a high profile. 
If AP were implemented, there is no question but that Jim Bell would be one 
of the first targets! All those people who found himself on his list, along 
with their heirs and successors, would want revenge. Everyone involved with 
the assassinations would be anonymous except Bell himself, making him the 
most prominent target of their wrath. Other notable supporters of crypto 
anarchy would follow soon, such as cypherpunk founders May and Hughes. The 
people involved with the digital cash would be targets as well, and so on."
Extract from 'nomen nescio'
There are checks and balances,get a grip.Read the essay.Its self 
limiting.No one who is anonymous has anything to fear from AP.They do have 
a lot to fear from the rogue terror state USA. Bell and I are willing to 
die,maybe even cj.It will be worth it and theoretically no one need 
die.Would you start paying to have people killed risking the knowledge of 
that getting out?
There is a disgusting lack of belief in peoples common sense and decency on 
this list,refs to 'sheeple' etc.Tim said its an openly elitist list 
once.Thats distorted your view of humanity I think.Tim is too fearful of AP 
as one of the 4 horsemen.
I worry more about pedophiles,the end result of turbocharged 
capitalism.There are pedo brothel owners that need to be nominated for 
operation soft drill.I need their names.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Dec 11 07:00:03 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:00:03 -0500
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
Message-ID: 


> Eric Cordian[SMTP:emc at artifact.psychedelic.net] wrote:
> 
> There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
> publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against "evil."
> 
Where is it?

	[...]

> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> 
Peter Trei




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 15:02:41 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:02:41 +1100
Subject: Delinquent orifacer list
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211100139.00a51c40@pop.useoz.com>


Subject: RE: Delinquent officer list
Thank you for your Internet inquiry. Your message referred to a Jeff
Gordon. Is that an employee of the Washington State Department of Revenue?
Thank you,
Washington State Department of Revenue Information Center
-----Original Message-----
From: mattd [mailto:mattd at useoz.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:28 PM
To: communications at dor.wa.gov
Subject: Delinquent officer list

Agent jeff gordon is requested to supply the following...Tax Reporting
Account number Legal Entity name (individual, partnership or a corporation)
Original amount of the debt (the current amount due is not disclosable)
Date of lien filing Court where the tax lien was filed Date the business
license was revoked (if applicable)In relation to abuse of office in bell 
trial.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 15:17:36 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:17:36 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211100744.00a50eb0@pop.useoz.com>


"Jim Bell would have made AP an underground comedy if he had hung out with 
the time-wasterists at MIT rather than with the techno-commercialists. But 
I think his techno-political potboiler succeeds by making a comical wrong 
turn into the pokey, not once but twice, and inspiring CJ to follow, and 
mattd, and surely more to come as the AP PR machine gains momentum."
jya.
Jim seems to have missed out on teenagerhood.CJ seems not to have left 
teenagerhood.The boiling pot is like darwins discovery of evolution,It 
turned out to be a rediscovery of the findings of an obscure scottish 
orchardist.No matter,the theory was required for us all to progress/catch 
up/evolve further.The basics of AP are out,like bio-warfare and cant be 
suppressed short of a global panopticon.1984.everywhere,forever.I think we 
should talk about crypto-anarchy now.




From dimalinux at mail.ru  Tue Dec 11 10:27:22 2001
From: dimalinux at mail.ru (Dima Holodovich)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:27:22 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
Message-ID: <0GO6007W7Z3EYY@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net>

On Tuesday 11 December 2001 06:29 am, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:
>
> Having a body of open source crypto software that is not entangled by
> any U.S. input is not a foolish idea.

Not when the body of software is critical for Linux and the
widespread use of IPSec.  If you want widespread adoption
of IPSec in Linux, it needs to be in Linus' kernel.  In order
for this to happen, it is necessary for Linus and other people
physically located in the United States need to be able to
to contribute.  Once Freeswan is in Linus' kernel, it will
receive greater contribution and testing from both *inside*
AND *outside* the United States.

IMO:  The current Freeswan policy *encourages* law makers to
change the laws.  Many companies have an invested interest
in Linux.  Those companies are willing to spend lots of
money on lawyers to protect Linux.  If IPSec is not part of
Linux and is not in widespread Linux use, those companies
will not have the need to defend us.  We'll have kept crypto
out of the hands of the people all on our own -- without
the government's help.

Do you really think that great programs like GNU Privacy
Guard are going to magically disappear if the US government
changes their regulations?  Can they magically be erased
from the net, just because some US contributions were
made?

- Dima



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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 15:41:24 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:41:24 +1100
Subject: AP Al Quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211102541.00a0b130@pop.useoz.com>


"On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, mattd wrote: > There are checks and balances,get a 
grip.Read the essay. No, there are not. > Its self limiting.No one who is 
anonymous has anything to fear from AP. The only way that AP would be 
harmless to an anonymous person is if they were anonymous to EVERYONE. The 
entire point of AP is to provide a mechanism to reach ANYONE who might 
infringe upon your 'rights'. Trying to pitch AP as if only certain classes 
of people are at risk is simply ignorance (you didn't really read AP now 
did you) or else you intentionaly misrepresent. Either way, your point 
isn't valid."

Im not trying to pitch AP for anything.It applies to everyone not 
anonymous.Anybody can nominate anyone else.I was going to bring this up as 
sort of good indicator for 'reputations'.Negative reputations need 
rating,weighing and assessment too.
The name 'assasination politics' might be seen as a negative.I use 
operation soft drill.I think that though its paradoxical that threatening 
people could lead to world peace,as long as no ones died yet,its worth a 
shot.Theoretically no one has to die.
If I was saddam hussein and knew that a pool was accumulating on me.I might 
consider retirement.I dont think youve read the essay properly or you would 
remember the 'thermostat' and the 'car thieves' bits.The point is valid and 
the other point is not to panic.(seen any flying saucers lately?)




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Dec 11 08:07:23 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:07:23 -0500
Subject: Slashdot | Google Expands Usenet Archive to 20 Years
Message-ID: 



> From: 	Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at ssz.com]
> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/11/0727218.shtml
> 
What expanded capability for ego-surfing!
What expanded ability for better-forgotten posts to rise 
from the dead!

Seriously, this is neat. My earliest listed posting is from
28 November '82. The first mention of the cypherpunks list 
appears to be a post from Eric Hughes on 25 September '92, 
which refers to the list as 'recently formed'.

It's nostalgic to see all the bang!path addresses and .arpa
hosts.

Peter Trei






From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 16:07:47 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:07:47 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211105738.00a42aa0@pop.useoz.com>


"A lesson to be learned by the politico-religio-righteous."

Thanks jya,leads me to my next riff.Religon.The huge success of ayn 
rantings 'objectivist' philosophy arguably
led to the ripe fruitiness of scientology.
Well what the hells stopping us?
The bells rung for everything faith based up to executions(jokingly) 
Churchs still tax exempt? Good.
Still get your religious peyote? Yep.
WTF are we spinning our wheels here for.Change the name to cyphersaints 
immediately and make it cryptoheaven
not cryptoanarchy.
On the holy bible the cyphernomicon I swear to practise no usury in my 
ecash dealings and may AP strike me dead should I sin.mattd.




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 11 11:12:54 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:12:54 -0800
Subject: Slashdot | Google Expands Usenet Archive to 20 Years
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <1427428E-EE6B-11D5-9E82-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 08:07 AM, Trei, Peter wrote:
> What expanded capability for ego-surfing!
> What expanded ability for better-forgotten posts to rise
> from the dead!
>
> Seriously, this is neat. My earliest listed posting is from
> 28 November '82. The first mention of the cypherpunks list
> appears to be a post from Eric Hughes on 25 September '92,
> which refers to the list as 'recently formed'.

Yes, it's great to see Google finally get around to doing what DejaNews 
said would be done.

Interestingly, I see a January 1992 use of the term "cypherpunks":

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22cypherpunks%22&hl=en&as_drrb=b&as_mind=
17&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1992&rnum=9&selm=1992Jan11.
232019.3543%40highlite.uucp

This predates Jude Milhon's naming of our list by about 9 months. And 
the earlier reference was not in the same context. Still, interesting.

A search on "cypherpunk" gives a history of the term and the early 
meetings at the Hackers Conference, the early CP meetings, etc.:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cypherpunk&hl=en&as_drrb=b&as_mind=17&as_minm=
5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1992&rnum=1&selm=1992Nov16.154438.
14092%40kumr.lns.com


The first mention of "cryptoanarchy" (the spelling I used then)  is in a 
9 January 1991 post from John Gilmore, citing my item on cryptoanarchy 
at the 1990 Hackers Conference:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=cryptoanarchy&hl=en&as_drrb=b&as_mind=17&
as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=1992&rnum=1&selm=14631%40hoptoad.
uucp

"
Cryptology, Computer Networks, and Big Brother
Tim May
slide presentation

	Views privacy and freedom from the point of view of "cryptoanarchy",
	in which cryptographic technology provides people the ability to
	communicate in privacy, despite the best efforts of governments
	to prevent their doing so.  Examines technical developments that
	led to it, and social possibilities that result from it.


(I wrote "The Cryptoanarchist Manifesto" for the 1988 Crypto Conference, 
where it was privately distributed to a few folks. I'd been using the 
term in talks around the Bay Area for several months prior to this, 
e.g., in a talk with Marc Stiegler, Phil Salin, Jim Bennett, Dave Ross, 
Chip Morningstar, Randy Farmer, and some others.)


--Tim May
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a 
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also 
into you." -- Nietzsche




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 16:25:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:25:50 +1100
Subject: latest from agent faustine
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211112125.00a46eb0@pop.useoz.com>


"...What are N-Grams? N-Gram Analysis is a a method patented by the NSA ..."

"You spooks are a bunch of gray, snivelling, alcoholic, Aldrich Ames 
lookalikes driving around in your rusty Toyotas."
mattkillthepresidentd.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 17:04:58 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:04:58 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211115536.00a55970@pop.useoz.com>


Anarchy was featured in an old 'High Times' issue,the one with jimmy carter 
snorting coke on the cover.
It was a pretty hacked synopsis of anarch hirstory,however it led to some 
hope that at least some synergies might spring up there.HT got banned 
and  now the 'tech tv'' are sniffing around.Laid off dot bombers whose 
yuppification nearly destroyed SF.They just asked for an interview,Im going 
to reluctantly if they stump up some sprucing up money.I dont expect much 
to come out of this but I want my latitude back.




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 09:20:08 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:20:08 -0500
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <3C15CD33.16918.3370B3@localhost>
References: <20011210145344.A21903@cluebot.com>
  <3C1364B9.12109.C7FA8D@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011211121523.02278070@mail.well.com>


Well, by your standards, any journalist who makes an innocent mistake would 
be a liar. I think the truth is that the reporters honestly believed they 
had a solid story -- but their editors should have stepped in and killed it 
or postponed it until they had unearthed more evidence. Reporters can get 
carried away on a story and lose focus; this is why you have multiple 
layers of editors at most news organizations. I don't remember how the 
videotape was edited -- you may be right; I just don't remember the details.

-Declan
Disclaimer: I worked at Time Inc. at the time but was not involved with the 
story -- I didn't see it until it hit the airwaves/newsstands.


At 09:09 AM 12/11/2001 -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>"No malice", not "no lies"
>
>The reason he concludes "no malice" is that he concludes the
>reporters really believed the US had used nerve gas, not
>because he believes the reporters had truthfully reported the
>evidence.  The edited Moorer seemingly admits to the use of
>nerve gas, and another witness seemingly admits to personally
>massacring civilians.  In the unedited versions, they do not.
>
>The reason it was "no malice" is that the reporters actually
>had some evidence -- but not evidence persuasive enough to
>report on television.




From db at db.com  Tue Dec 11 12:24:33 2001
From: db at db.com (Dirk Boxcuttah)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:24:33 -0800
Subject: AOLTW hires ex Secret Service
Message-ID: <3C166B81.EEF9D463@db.com>


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/bpihw/20011210/en/aol_tw_secures_secret_service_vet_1.html

AOL TW secures Secret Service vet

By Georg Szalai

NEW YORK (The Hollywood Reporter) --- In the wake of the Sept. 11
terrorist attacks, AOL Time Warner Inc. is breaking new ground
in the media industry, saying Monday that it has named the deputy
director of the U.S. Secret Service to the new position of chief
security
officer and senior vp.

Larry Cockell, a 20-year Secret Service veteran, will start his new
assignment at the world's largest entertainment and online conglomerate
Jan. 14. Reporting to AOL TW executive vp administration Patricia
Fili-Krushel, Cockell will be responsible for security on a global
basis,
coordinating and overseeing all security policies and operations, the
company said.

Analysts said Monday that they were not aware of similar positions at
other media giants but that big corporations in other fields have
started
shoring up their security operations following Sept. 11. "I don't know
of such a chief security officer position at any of AOL's media peers,"
Kaufman Bros. analyst Paul Kim said. "But this is definitely a growing
trend at S&P 500 companies."





From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Dec 11 03:31:31 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:31:31 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: Antivirus firms deny Magic Lantern backdoor plans (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:04:54 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Antivirus firms deny Magic Lantern backdoor plans


>From: "Bill Sodeman" 
>To: 
>Subject: Antivirus firms deny Magic Lantern backdoor plans
>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:47:17 -0600
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3311
>Importance: Normal
>
>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011210/tc/attack_tech_dc.html
>
>Monday December 10 8:30 PM ET
>Antivirus Firms Say They Won't Create FBI Loophole
>By Elinor Mills Abreu
>
>SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Anti-virus software vendors said on Monday
>they don't want to create a loophole in their security products to let
>the FBI or other government agencies use a virus to eavesdrop on the
>computer communications of suspected criminals.
>
>Under a project code named "Magic Lantern," the U.S. Federal Bureau of
>Investigation is creating an e-mail-borne virus or Trojan horse that
>hides itself on the computer and captures all keystrokes made, including
>passwords that could be used to read encrypted mail, according to a
>report on MSNBC.com in November.
>
>Despite subsequent reports to the contrary, officials at Symantec Corp.
>and Network Associates Inc. said they had no intention of voluntarily
>modifying their products to satisfy the FBI. Spokesmen at two other
>computer security companies, Japan-based Trend Micro Inc. and the U.S.
>subsidiary of UK-based Sophos PLc., made similar statements.
>
>All four anti-virus companies said they had not contacted or been
>contacted by the U.S. government on the matter.
>
>"We're in the business of providing a virus-free environment for our
>users and we're not going to do anything to compromise that security,"
>said Tony Thompson of Network Associates.
>
>"Symantec's first priority is to protect our customers from malicious
>and illegal attacks," Symantec Chief Executive John W. Thompson said in
>a statement. "We have no intention of creating or leaving a hole in our
>software that might compromise that security."
>
>If anti-virus vendors were to leave a hole for an FBI-created Trojan
>horse program, malicious hackers would try to exploit the hole too,
>experts said.
>
>"If you leave the weakness for the FBI, you leave it for everybody,"
>said Fred Cohen, an independent security expert and digital forensics
>professor at the University of New Haven.
>
> >From the industry perspective, leaving a hole in anti-virus software
>would erode public confidence and damage the reputation of the vendor,
>sending customers to competing companies, the vendors said.
>
>The government would have to convince all anti-virus vendors to
>cooperate or the plan wouldn't work, since those not cooperating would
>have a market advantage and since they all share information, said a
>Symantec spokeswoman.
>
>"The thought that you would be able to convince the industry as a whole
>to do this is kind of naive," she said.
>
>All four anti-virus companies said they had not contacted or been
>contacted by the U.S. government on the matter.
>
>The FBI declined to confirm or deny the report about "Magic Lantern,"
>when it was first published by MSNBC.com and a spokesman was not
>available for comment on Monday.
>
>PLAN WOULD ALIENATE OTHER COUNTRIES
>
>Symantec and Networks Associates, both of whom have investments in
>China, would not jeopardize their footings in that market, said Rob
>Rosenberger, editor of www.vmyths.com, a Web site that debunks virus
>hoaxes.
>
>"If (the Chinese) thought that the company was a tool of the CIA (news -
>web sites), China would stop using those products in critical
>environments," Rosenberger said. "It is in the best interest of
>anti-virus vendors not to heed the call of the FBI."
>
>"We always try to cooperate with the authorities when it's appropriate.
>Having said that, our No. 1 goal is to protect our customers," said
>Barbara Woolf of Trend Micro. "I've heard reports that the government is
>upset this got out and is going back to the drawing board."
>
>Appeasing the U.S. government would be difficult for vendors who have
>parent companies and customers outside the United States, they said.
>
>"If the laws of the land were to change to permit this kind of activity
>then we would abide by the law," said David Hughes, president of Sophos'
>U.S. subsidiary.
>
>But "how would a vendor provide protection for customers outside of the
>specific jurisdiction?" Hughes asked. "If we were to do this for the
>U.S. government we'd also have to do it for the government of any other
>nation that would want to do something similar."
>
>
>==========================
>
>Bill Sodeman
>bill at sodeman.com / http://bill.sodeman.com
>
>1-512-845-0119

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Dec 11 12:58:49 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:58:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To:  from
  "Trei, Peter" at Dec 11, 2001 10:00:03 AM
Message-ID: <200112112059.fBBKx4a09251@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Peter Trei writes:

>> There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
>> publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against
>> "evil."

> Where is it?

It was released by ACTA, formerly the NAF, run by Lynne Cheney, formerly
arch-conservative Bill Bennett's heir at the National Endowment for the
Humanities, and the wife of the federal government's favorite cardiac
patient, Vice President Dick Cheney.

Imagine the joy of being a university professor, and waking up one morning
to find that a big powerful organization run by the Vice President's wife
has issued a report practically calling you a traitor.

from http://arizona.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=2175&group=webcast
 
<>
 
and from APSCUF's Higher Education News Blits

<<* THE AMERICAN COUNCIL OF TRUSTEES AND ALUMNI, an organization that says
  American higher education plays down Western intellectual teachings, on
  Sunday issued a stinging report that condemns colleges and faculty
  members for what it calls a "blame America first" response to the
  terrorist attacks of September 11.>>

and from WebNetInfo.com

<>

You might want to wade through http://www.goacta.org/ and see if you can
find the report.  I took a quick look, but my javascript and .pdf
patience levels were quickly exceeded.

I saw one of the frightened professors bleating "but I'm not a traitor" on
CNN the other day, and a smiling ACTA droid saying that their list was
merely "academic criticism."  High drama.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Tue Dec 11 04:26:40 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:26:40 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:24:46 -0800
From: Don Marti 
To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange

begin Seth David Schoen quotation of Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:42:26PM -0800:

> Reviving a thread from last month:

(More on encrypted email infrastructure from Seth:
http://vitanuova.loyalty.org/2001-12-07.html)

> The Board of Directors of EFF met today in San Francisco, and I made a
> presentation about this, in the presence of Brad Templeton and others.
> One of the conclusions was that EFF's role in implementing something
> like this is still not defined clearly enough, and we don't know what
> we could most usefully do.

In order to seriously deploy encrypted email you need to kick the
email client support problem and the key management problem at the
same time.

One possible role for EFF would be as a founding member of an
encrypted email industry consortium analogous to W3C.  Such an
organization would have to be positioned as a way to fight
cyberterrorism and protect infrastructure.

It would be nice to get Ximian, the KDE project  and Qualcomm to
join, and use the words "Secure Email" or "Email Security" in the
organization's name somewhere.  You probably aren't going to get
any mail client vendor that depends on many Secret Police customers
to join.

-- 
Don Marti          What do we want?  Free Dmitry!  When do we want it?  Now!
http://zgp.org/~dmarti
dmarti at zgp.org                                  Free the web, burn all GIFs.
KG6INA                                               http://burnallgifs.org/
_______________________________________________
linux-elitists
http://zgp.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-elitists




From popkin at nym.alias.net  Tue Dec 11 05:35:17 2001
From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin)
Date: 11 Dec 2001 13:35:17 -0000
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
References: <0b6888eaf9844ca38eee29b1d175ab8f@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <20011211133517.21136.qmail@nym.alias.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: application/pgp
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From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 19:11:14 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:11:14 +1100
Subject: Subject: the OSD pool, press release.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211140520.00a23df0@pop.useoz.com>


>Subject: the operation soft drill, draw down pool for day to day petty 
>tyrants.
>
>OSD International do not insure against war and nuclear explosion, and 
>acts of terrorism would somehow fit between the definitions, professor rat 
>said.
>
>"If the government accepts our proposal for a pool, then we will be able 
>to continue to provide cover under the original policy," he told reporters.
>
>"We have a figure of $1 billion, which is probably a sufficient number we 
>would need."
>
>Proff. rat said the pool would have to be raised through community 
>contributions, such as a levy on insurance policies.
>
>"If we create a viable pool here in Australia, everyone's going to have to 
>contribute to it," he said.
>
>"We would have to assess a cost or contribution over a period of time. It 
>could be X number of dollars per house or vehicle insurance policy.
>
>"We have not got down to the fine detail yet; we are still arguing for a 
>pool."




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Dec 11 14:12:39 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:12:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To:  from
  "Trei, Peter" at Dec 11, 2001 04:25:26 PM
Message-ID: <200112112212.fBBMCdN09359@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Peter Trei wrote:

> On the other hand, ACTA has specifically condemned the 
> U of NM for their punishment of Berthold (which started 
> this thread).

An interesting tactic.  Out those whose remarks are not publicly known, to
intimidate them and others into silence, while at the same time,
"defending" someone whose reputation cannot be further vilified against
excessive punishment.

Like most organizations that are members of the Conservative Labyrinth,
ACTA's web page is a bit deceptive.  On first reading, you might get the
impression that you were looking at some sort of ACLU-like organization
devoted to intellectual and academic freedom.  Look at how many times the
word "liberal" appears in a positive context.

Of course, this is designed to appeal to people who don't pay too much
attention to the fact that the word "liberal" in "liberal education" has
an entirely different meaning than it does in "liberal political
thinking."

Defense of liberal education and attacks on the elimination of humanities
programs, do not equate to support of liberal politics and humanism.  :)

> "It is the responsibility of a university to teach that the right way to
> counter ideas with which one disagrees is with more speech, not less,"
> said Neal.

Even the ADL proudly advertises that the "solution to bad speech is more
speech."  In fact, they will happily provide you with carefully prepared
"more speech" to add to any website which contains comments that might be
construed as negative about a particular ideology and its followers.

I think most of us would consider the ADL pro-censorship, even as it
adopts Cypherpunkish slogans to describe its behavior.

As conservative organizations and other agendas strive to blend in to the
freethinkers, it becomes even more important to recognize that the ACLJ is
not the ACLU, Pregnancy Crisis Centers are not Abortion Clinics, and Child
Advocacy is not Childrens Rights.

Neither is defending a professor against being punished for snickering
over the exploding Pentagon an invitation to university faculty to speak
their minds on the likely fallout from decades of Belicose and Belligerent
US Foreign Policy.

There's a pretty good Boston Globe article on all this at...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1113-03.htm

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 19:55:46 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:55:46 +1100
Subject: Does the boss read cypherpunks?
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211144155.00a43eb0@pop.useoz.com>


http://www.click2learn.com/   a majority owned paul allen co.

They say that knowledge is power...actually its proffr. Im just wondering 
how my techtv interviews going to go when
they find out Im  @fuckmicrosoft.com

Wonder if pauls any relation to my old mate michael k allen.republican 
party reptile and e-mail idiot/waster of taxpayers money.Ohio division.
Theres no reason personalized information cant arrive at your TV, 
cellular telephone, or microwave oven for that matter. Microprocessors 
embedded in objects and connected to networks open up a world of new 
opportunitiesa world where information is easily customized for each 
users needs."
 Paul Allen
Theres no reason paul allen couldnt be nominated by me for assasination 
politics.He still has time to divest and join the crypto-anarchist 
revolution though.Nothing personal paul,its business,thats all.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 20:28:52 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:28:52 +1100
Subject: Nobrain Nescio
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211151429.00a44410@pop.useoz.com>


"...Sure, AP requires anonymous digital cash, ..." 'nomen nescio'

Luckily operation soft drill doesnt.

"AP is part of the dark side of the cypherpunk dream and it must be faced 
rather than evaded"

OSD,the 'open source' AP is the light,bright shining star of the cypherpunk 
dream,think about it.

." The people involved with the digital cash would be targets "

Yes,by tax collectors who would then be nominated for OSD.If they come in 
tanks,we target any federal employee,an advance on AP imho.

"With crypto anarchy you have to take the bad with the good. "

Agreed,we have to listen to you,measl,honig,james and tim crap 
on.(sometimes tims good though)

"John Young's dissembling "

If jya were japanese he'd be a living national treasure.He also is pioneer 
of info compression on a truly mindbending scale.A cypherpunk giant,show 
some respect.




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:08:36 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:08:36 +1100
Subject: Crypto winter
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211153943.00a484c0@pop.useoz.com>


When the crap corporate media start to beat up an OSD scare,it might pay to 
be aware.Not fearful or defensive but aware.

3 things are lying around,1 is contract killing,as seen in prizzis 
honor,crimes and misdemeanors, etc.
2 is the www,something whipping out 5 kilometres of fibre optic as we 
speak.Not getting smaller or going away.
3 is injustice,something most children know about.So what if OSD puts these 
together,so anyone can.

No one or no govt can stop 3 basic things being combined or eliminate even 
one without massive insane effort.

Its the same as clipper,bio-warfare agents and nuclear knowledge.Its out 
there.Its also needed.We are facing a crisis
that will make us rapidly extinct soon if we dont take action."Targeted 
action".Tim may be right about a crypto winter cos
the scare campaign on OSD could be massive.They will huff and puff,yet more 
and more are getting their news from Independent media,so they'll lose 
there as well.I wrote on www.indymedia.org around april that we are 
approaching a phase transition.Jim bell wrote that it will seem like a 
roller coaster ride,but it will be worth it,for we will be free.Euletheria.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Dec 11 13:25:26 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:25:26 -0500
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
Message-ID: 


> ----------
> From: 	Eric Cordian[SMTP:emc at artifact.psychedelic.net]
> 
> 
> Peter Trei writes:
> 
> >> There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
> >> publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against
> >> "evil."
> 
> > Where is it?
	[...]
> It was released by ACTA, formerly the NAF, run by Lynne Cheney, formerly
> arch-conservative Bill Bennett's heir at the National Endowment for the
> Humanities, and the wife of the federal government's favorite cardiac
> patient, Vice President Dick Cheney.
	[...]
> You might want to wade through http://www.goacta.org/ and see if you can
> find the report.  I took a quick look, but my javascript and .pdf
> patience levels were quickly exceeded.
	[...]

Well, http://www.goacta.org/Reports/defciv.pdf doesn't
actually name names, but the quotes are given enough
attribution that, at least on a given campus, the speaker
is probably identifiable. For example...

2 2 . "What the U.S. calls counter-terrorism is terrorism 
by another name. Operation Infinite Justice-the Bush 
administration's code name for proposed military action 
against terrorists - is 'cowboy law.'" 
Professor of linguistics, MIT.

...isn't too hard to identify.

On the other hand, ACTA has specifically condemned the
U of NM for their punishment of Berthold (which started 
this thread).

http://www.goacta.org/Press%20Releases/11-14-01PR.htm

AMERICAN COUNCIL OF TRUSTEES AND ALUMNI
    DEFENDS UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO PROF

 Controversial Comment on Terrorist Attack Is Not Grounds
                for Punishment


WASHINGTON, D.C. (November 14, 2001) -- The American
Council of Trustees and Alumni today came to the defense of
University of New Mexico professor Richard Berthold who is
under investigation by the University for remarking: "Anyone
who can blow up the Pentagon has my vote."

"Professor Berthold's comment is certainly crude and
debatable, but it is not punishable," said Anne D. Neal,
ACTA's Vice President and General Counsel. "While we clearly
disagree, academic freedom requires a free exchange of
ideas-no matter how controversial."

[...]

"There is a big difference between criticizing someone's
comments, and punishing those comments," said Neal. "It is
the responsibility of a university to teach that the right way to
counter ideas with which one disagrees is with more speech,
not less," said Neal. 

-- end of quote - 

Peter Trei




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 21:33:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:33:53 +1100
Subject: Free our friends,all slaves and prisoners of the state
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211162623.00a4aae0@pop.useoz.com>


All drug war prisoners,leonard peltier,Mumia,chris boyce,robert 
hannsen,aldrich ames and all the other world patriots.

Also killthepresidentthenthenextonethenthenextfasterpussycatkillkill.OSD 
international will shortly target US tourists.

Punk's attack on the establishment and institutions of the day, its 
willingness to exploit taboos for fun and proffr, was supremely effective 
at getting up noses.




From pcw at flyzone.com  Tue Dec 11 13:45:43 2001
From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:45:43 -0500
Subject: Earn Cash, Find Errors in _Disappearing Cryptography_.
Message-ID: <200112112146.fBBLk1m31370@slack.lne.com>


I'm working on a second edition of _Disappearing Cryptography_, a 
book about steganography and anonymity on-line. In the interests of 
removing any errors from previous editions, I'm offering a $10 reward 
for anyone who reports the technical errors to me.

Here are the rules:

*) Only the first person to report an error wins a prize. This is the 
only way to avoid many people submitting the same error again and 
again and again. I reserve the right to pay duplicate prizes to 
people who appear to have submitted a duplicate in good faith.

*) I reserve the right to decide the size of an error. If 
misspellings counted, spelling someone's name wrong through out the 
entire book would only count as one error.

*) First person is judged by the time the error arrives in my 
mailbox, pcw at flyzone.com.

*) Only technical errors count. Grammar and spelling errors could 
bankrupt me, even after the copy editing fixes 99%.

*) Please submit the page number.

*) Please let me know if you want your name included in the thanks at 
the beginning of the book.


Thank you. You're free to forward this offer to any other list.

-Peter




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Dec 11 17:01:11 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To: <20011211194218.A14237@cluebot.com> from "Declan McCullagh"
  at Dec 11, 2001 07:42:19 PM
Message-ID: <200112120101.fBC11Bl09585@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Declan opines:

>> Imagine the joy of being a university professor, and waking up one morning
>> to find that a big powerful organization run by the Vice President's wife
>> has issued a report practically calling you a traitor.

> I'm hardly defending the group's "blacklist," but "big and powerful?"
> Come, now.

OK.  How about "well-funded?"  :)

I count $1,270,000 in grants to the organization since its creation as the
National Alumni Forum.  The NAF sold the idea that alumni should
contribute to the NAF's "Fund for Academic Renewal" instead of directly to
their institutions.  The NAF then gave the money to the institutions as
targeted donations, removing the institution's discretion over how alumni
donations were spent.

They went after the $2.9 billion alumni gift market with big ads in Ivy
League magazines.  Later they changed their name to the more impressive
sounding American Council of Trustees and Alumni, and broadened the
spectrum of pressure tactics employed to shove patriotism down the throats
of universities behind the smokescreen of "promoting intellectual freedom
and raising academic standards."

In what sense is such an undertaking neither "big" nor "powerful?"

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 22:16:26 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:16:26 +1100
Subject: Threats to kill,"A cry for help"
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211171050.00a4ccf0@pop.useoz.com>


A doctor called Asperger that we'll call Hans
Had plenty to do and plenty of plans
To name a syndrome after himself
So that people like me weren't left on the shelf
Many years later thanks to Old Hans
People were diagnosed and they became his fans
Parents and doctors and teachers alike
Understood Asperger Syndrome just like riding a bike
They thanked Old Hans many years on
As the diagnosis kept going on and on
Lots of research does even more good
Just like the books by Tony Attwood
Hans Asperger is sadly no longer with us
But he did leave a lot so that he could give us
We thank him for making our lives much easier
And I myself feel a whole lot pleasier.

QUESTION: Where did the name Asperger Syndrome comes from?

ANSWER: Hans Asperger, an Austrian scientist in 1944, discovered the 
syndrome. He found out why children and adults behaved differently from 
other people and linked it with autism, except that he found that these 
people had average or above average intelligence.
The word Asperger also seems to be a Dutch word as a language translation 
website proved, the word means "sparrow grass" in English. We believe that 
the words Asperger and asparagus are related to each other as both words 
translate as exactly the same word. Someone also told me that the French 
word asperge also seems to be a translation for both Asperger and asparagus.




From popkin at nym.alias.net  Tue Dec 11 09:50:28 2001
From: popkin at nym.alias.net (D.Popkin)
Date: 11 Dec 2001 17:50:28 -0000
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
References: 
Message-ID: <20011211175028.14024.qmail@nym.alias.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp
Size: 528 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:12:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:12:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:

> In the most recent ruling, Universal v. Remerdez/Eric Corley 2600.com 
> (00-9185), http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-cad.htm , the US Court of 
> Appeals for the Second Circuit declined to overturn an injunction 
> against the posting of DeCSS on the Internet. The Court held that 
> software was speech, but did not enjoy the level of First Amendment 
> protection accorded to pure speech because it is functional with 
> little human intervention.

That's where 'press' comes into play. The 1st provides two protections.
The first is to have an opinion and to express it, 'speech'. The second is
'press' which guarantees the right to share with other humans. Speech that
is not shared, after all, is no better than speech not uttered. Now this
explicitly protects the hardware and 'non-human' mechanisms that humans
use to distribute their speech. The courts will eventually find that the
sharing of speech, irrespective of mechanism, is protected. To deny an
individual a mechanism to share their speech is in fact a violation of
their speech. In addition the first does NOT draw ANY distinctions about
what sorts of speech are or are not protected, it simply says 'speech' is 
protected.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Tue Dec 11 18:13:59 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:13:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To:  from
  "Trei, Peter" at Dec 11, 2001 04:25:26 PM
Message-ID: <200112120213.fBC2Dxw09688@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Peter Trei wrote:

> Well, http://www.goacta.org/Reports/defciv.pdf doesn't
> actually name names, but the quotes are given enough
> attribution that, at least on a given campus, the speaker
> is probably identifiable. For example...

Are you sure that's the report all the fuss is about?  All the newspaper
stories I've read on this were pretty specific that names were named.

> "What the U.S. calls counter-terrorism is terrorism by another name.
> Operation Infinite Justice-the Bush administration's code name for
> proposed military action against terrorists - is 'cowboy law.'"

>                      Professor of linguistics, MIT.

> ...isn't too hard to identify.

Yes.  Kind of like...

"Fuck America.  Fuck it to death and start over."
 
                       Crusty Retired Engineer, Intel.

Har.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From mattd at useoz.com  Mon Dec 10 23:14:21 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:14:21 +1100
Subject: The Fading Altruism of Open Source Development 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011211180451.00a4e0f0@pop.useoz.com>


"...regardless of how software is produced in the real world, its 
increasing extensibility seems to be in the public interest and should be 
encouraged where feasible."

Last sentence.Misleading leadin methinks,jimmy.However,if true may be 
balanced by...Twilight of the crypto-geeks
Lone-wolf digital libertarians are beginning to abandon their faith in 
technology uber alles and espouse suspiciously socialist-sounding ideas.
At... http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/04/13/libertarians/print.html

Wots pantheists jim?,we have black panthers running free in this state,I 
saw one once and one was filmed just recently.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:15:17 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:15:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011211070014.009c0650@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> MIT's project *Athena* developed X because they had an equal mix of DEC
                      ^
                      What letter is next to 'a' on the keyboard? You
                      really should refrain from ad hominims.

> and [I forget -IBM?] workstations and so developed a device independent
> display server.  That it was subject to code bloat is regrettable but its use
> is not mandatory.

Nobody said ANYTHING was mandatory, as usual changing the rules in the
middle of the game.

What happened was that it was the only game in town. It got picked up by
the Unix geeks and next thing you know there was a collection of code and
apps that were written for X. It would have cost entirely too much to
change to something else and throw all that code away (eg consider the
life time of a typical piece of COBOL).

Economic & Technical Inertia


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:20:54 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:20:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011211065257.009bf970@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 12:13 AM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >No, I'm not. 'discrimination' requires(!) 'prejudice'. Prejudice is the
> 
> In Choate prime, perhaps.  For the rest of us, measurement (e.g., 
> the redness vs greenness of a fruit) lets us discriminate useful from not.

Bullshit, you're playing word games. Get your dictionary and educate
yourself on this point. You're using the word in the fist case to mean
select individuals as sub-optimal. Then when you're called to the carpet
on your logical inconsistency you all of a sudden change your word usage
to mean 'select', which ain't the same thing at all in the context of your
original usage. Discriminate as you use above is almost exclusively a
technical application, which isn't applicable to the social application
we're actually discussing. Why? Because in your first usage you were
applying a measure of 'merit' whereas in the above usage you are drawing a
simple distinction. Not the same beasty at all - Choate Prime or not.

Discriminate:

1. To observe or mark the difference between

2. To show partiality because of race, nationality, or class prejudice

You really should be more consistent in the way you use words.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:23:52 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:23:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda 
In-Reply-To: <3C15CD33.4142.3370D1@localhost>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

> I just gave you a response,

Which you never did before.

> which you just deleted. 

Which I explained the reason to. I'll get around to the rest of it in the
next day or so.

Quit your whinning.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:30:08 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:30:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al quim
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212061517.00a53360@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> Jim says in the essay,It doesnt have to be,"wild in the streets"He doesn't 
> miss a trick.He talks of the possibility of minarchy.Does anyone actually 
> read the fucking essay? 

Yeah, I read the fucking essay. It's flawed in a variety of ways. It's
understanding of human psychology (which it purports to manipulate in
realistic ways - not) is so flawed as to make it very tedious.

> I part with him on offing forest grunts,btw.Its not 
> about shooting 'messengers'.Its about making very credible threats to limit 
> violence.Paradoxical but effective.

Not paradoxical, hypocritical. And no, it doesn't limit anything (unless
there are is so much money being made killing wives, husbands, and
competitors there are no more hit men left). It simply provides a
mechanism for the 1st party to anonymously hire the 3rd party to kill
the 2nd party.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From tbr at bora.com  Tue Dec 11 18:43:34 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:43:34 -0800
Subject: 100 million responsibilities (Re: AP Al quim)
Message-ID: <3C16C456.D63A38F5@bora.com>


At 06:27 AM 12/12/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
>.>..regarding Assassination Politics: > > Just keep in mind that AP is
a
>joke among knowledgeable > > technologists for >its unworkability, but
a
>wonderful joke > > on those who believe it's anything more than a
taunt. >
>Total bullshit again. Yes, but the reason it's bullshit is that
shooting
>messengers does no good. It leaves intact the originators of the
message,
>all hundred- million of them. Tomorrow, the hundred million will be
>stumbling over each other trying to empower new messengers to replace
those
>fallen.

Bingo.  This is why the WTC takedown was such excellent feedback.




From tbr at bora.com  Tue Dec 11 18:50:27 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:50:27 -0800
Subject: Lynn Cheney vs. Tipper Gore -which is more evil?
Message-ID: <3C16C5F2.895CAB0@bora.com>


>>> There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have
>>> publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against
>>> "evil."
>
>> Where is it?
>
>It was released by ACTA, formerly the NAF, run by Lynne Cheney,
formerly
>arch-conservative Bill Bennett's heir at the National Endowment for the

>Humanities, and the wife of the federal government's favorite cardiac
>patient, Vice President Dick Cheney.
>
>Imagine the joy of being a university professor, and waking up one
morning
>to find that a big powerful organization run by the Vice President's
wife
>has issued a report practically calling you a traitor.

Almost as much fun as being a musician and waking up one morning to find

that a big powerful organization run by the VP's wife is practically
calling you immoral.

Tipper Gore is mentally ill, but that's no excuse.




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Dec 11 18:54:26 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:54:26 -0800
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20011211070014.009c0650@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011211185426.009c78b0@pop.sprynet.com>


At 06:15 PM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
>
>> MIT's project *Athena* developed X because they had an equal mix of DEC
>                      ^
>                      What letter is next to 'a' on the keyboard? You
>                      really should refrain from ad hominims.

A simple spelling correction is not an ad hominim.



 






  







From UNIVERR_5 at terra.e  Tue Dec 11 10:00:24 2001
From: UNIVERR_5 at terra.e (brokers-university)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:00:24 +0100
Subject: PUBLI/ENSEANZA
Message-ID: <200112111757.fBBHvmJ17900@waste.minder.net>


PUBLI/ENSEÑANZA
                                                                            
                                                                                            Learning 
University 
                                                                                            Area 
Master-Doctoral
                                                                                            
--------------------------------
                                                                                            

 

 
 
Gratamente nos dirigimos a vd:

Para informales sobre la posibilidad de realizar unos Masters, Doctorados, 
a distancia desde cualquier parte del mundo.Y LA POSIBILIDAD DE 
CONVALIDAR SU EXPERIENCIA LABORAL, ESTUDIOS 
ANTERIORES,PARA  PODER CERTIFICARLE DIPLOMATURAS EN 
DIFERENTES AREAS.
La enseñanza es a distancia y pueden seguirlo cómodamente en 
cualquier parte del mundo tanto el material de estudio como él envió de 
examen y la entrega de diplomas se efectúa a distancia.
Certificamos la experiencia a fin.

 
Areas de estudio enormemente practicas:

Area Economía:
 
 Marketing y Dirección de Empresas
Comunicación Social y Relaciones Publicas
MBA. Master Business Administraccion
Psicología Social y Empresa
Ecología y Medio Ambiente
PNL y Psicología Social
Promoción del Turismo
 Gestión Inmobiliaria y Inversiones
Internet y Nuevas Tecnologías 
 (Otros como enseñanzas convalidables, nuevas profesiones)
 ---------------

Area Terapias Alternativas:

Medicina Naturista Integral
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Medicina Ayuverdica
Terapias Manuales
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 (Otros como enseñanzas convalidables,nuevas profesiones)
MBA es la estrategia aplicada a cualquier rama del saber o el 
conocimiento. 
MAS DE 300.DIPLOMATURAS POR CONVALIDACION DE 
EXPERIENCIA LABORAL Y EDUCATIVA AFIN.
Envíenos un e-mail a UNI_BROKER at terra.es y le informaremos con la 
mayor brevedad sobre fecha de inicio, módulos de estudio, costes y 
condiciones generales, posibilidades.etc. 

 Sin otra que la de quedar de vds.

 
 Atentamente:
 

 
Maria Carrillo
Area Broker-Learning University
Representante
University Technology International
UNI_BROKER at terra.es 
---------------

Si desea ser borrado envie un e-mail:
Con refer_remove:

SU DIRECCION DE E-MAIL FUE EXTRAIDA DE UN SITIO PUBLICO 
POR MEDIO DE MEDIOS MECANICOS AUTOMATIZADOS AL IGUAL 
QUE EL ENVIO DE ESTE MENSAJE.NO DISPONIENDO DE DATOS 
CONFIDENCIALES DE VD.




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Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:01:10
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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 11 19:02:13 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:02:13 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


This article is so deeply flawed as to be laughable. Part of the article 
is quoted below, with my comments/corrections in brackets.

'In 1993, the Finns developed an anonymous e-mail system that stripped 
off the identification of an e-mail's sender before forwarding it to the 
addressee.

[No, Karl Kleinpaste developed the original software and deployed it in 
1991-2. Julf H. took it over and modified it later. Not "the Finns," but 
"an American and then a Finn."]

Anon.penet.fi was especially popular among devotees of Usenet 
newsgroups, text-based bulletin boards that preceded the World Wide Web.

A major flaw was revealed in 1995, however, when the Church of 
Scientology learned of a user who used Anon.penet.fi to post internal 
church documents -- and contacted police.

Because the single remailer relied on a database to match the sender's 
Internet address with the message, the courts simply ordered Hensingius 
to reveal the identity of the sender. He shut down the service in 1996.

"That prompted a bunch of programmers to rethink how they wanted to do 
remailers," said Sassaman.

Now, messages are bounced from machine to machine. In order to find the 
original sender, authorities would have to work through an entire chain 
of remailers, many likely located in different countries.
"

[The "prompted a bunch of programmers to rethink" comment has it all 
backwards. Chained remailers were deployed in 1992. The theory was known 
from Chaum's 1981 paper, and the flaws in the 
Kremvax/Kleinpaste/Julf/Penet type of approach were widely known: this 
was why chained remailers, in multiple jurisdictions, were deployed. Hal 
Finney wrote the first code for this, building on the Perl/Sendmail 
scripts Eric Hughes had already released.]

[I don't expect detailed perfection in journalism, but this article 
scrambles the causal order substantially. We _knew_ of the severe 
limitations to "trust me"-based mail resenders long before, years 
before, the limitations were revealed. And, the reason the 
Scientologists were unable to track down the source of the NOTS docs is 
that the court order to reveal the author only produced the C2Net 
Cypherpunks-style source, which COULD NOT be traced back further!!!!! 
This is a slam dunk refutation of the author's chronology above. By the 
way, when C2Net decided to get out of the remailing business, they sold 
or otherwise transferred the technology to Lance Cottrell. Not to take 
anything away from Lance, but let's not let this kind of bad history go 
without correction.]

--Tim May




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 16:42:19 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:42:19 -0500
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To: <200112112059.fBBKx4a09251@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from
  emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:58:49PM -0800
References: 
  <200112112059.fBBKx4a09251@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20011211194218.A14237@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:58:49PM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
> Imagine the joy of being a university professor, and waking up one morning
> to find that a big powerful organization run by the Vice President's wife
> has issued a report practically calling you a traitor.

I'm hardly defending the group's "blacklist," but "big and powerful?"
Come, now.

-Declan




From nobody at dizum.com  Tue Dec 11 11:20:25 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:20:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
Message-ID: 


Danny Popkin writes:
> > Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.
>
> Worse than the secret ballot?

Much worse.  With a secret ballot you need to get a majority to support
any particular position.  That's a significant hurdle to overcome.
But with AP any small group of people that can put up enough money to
hire an assassin can get their way.  The going rate for a murder is
around $5-10K to off an average person, more if he's heavily guarded.
If 100 people put up $100 each then that's enough to get someone killed.

Imagine a secret ballot where any measure to increase government power
would pass if it received as few as 100 votes.  How much freedom would
you have left in such a society?  That's what AP represents.

And keep in mind that the people buying the assassination are fully
anonymous.  There is no way to know who is funding the AP market.  There
is no check or limit on the extent to which anonymous individuals with
private grievances can buy the deaths of anyone who gets in their way.

The only good thing about this situation is that it would encourage
everyone to go anonymous post haste.  We would see a rapid change in
society to allow anonymous business transactions, corporate ownership,
stock transactions.  Insider trading laws would become unenforceable.
Board members would meet only electronically, spending their time
barricaded inside their mansions.

Even elective office would change.  You'll walk into the ballot box to
vote for your government officials from a list of nyms who meet only on
the net.  Police forces, heavily armed and always travelling in teams,
will receive their orders via encrypted, digitally signed messages from
elected officials.  Any government official who must interact with the
public, whether a building inspector, a drivers' license examiner, even
a fireman, would get hazardous duty pay.  Wearing masks might become
routine for such officials.

Taxes (much higher than before due to the greater expenses of operating
the government) could be charged based on imputed property values
depending on zip code and acreage.  Everyone in a particular neighborhood
would be charged a fixed amount per square foot.  Any household which
does not provide the required fee (via cryptographic anonymous transfer
into the government account of course) would have its property subject
to confiscation by police.  Armed resistance would be met by military
force including helicopter gunships.

We can live in a world of crypto anarchy, but it won't be pretty.  And the
government certainly won't wither away.  Anyone who thinks that attacking
the government will weaken it should have learned a lesson from September
11th.  When it feels itself under attack, the government strikes back.
We are all the losers as our freedoms are destroyed.




From tbr at bora.com  Tue Dec 11 20:55:04 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 20:55:04 -0800
Subject: Is Nomen Nomescio John McCain?
Message-ID: <3C16E327.A20F698@bora.com>


At 08:20 PM 12/11/01 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>Danny Popkin writes:
>> > Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.
>>
>> Worse than the secret ballot?
>
>Much worse.  With a secret ballot you need to get a majority to support

>any particular position.  That's a significant hurdle to overcome.
>But with AP any small group of people that can put up enough money to
>hire an assassin can get their way.  The going rate for a murder is
>around $5-10K to off an average person, more if he's heavily guarded.
>If 100 people put up $100 each then that's enough to get someone
killed.
>
>Imagine a secret ballot where any measure to increase government power
>would pass if it received as few as 100 votes.  How much freedom would
>you have left in such a society?  That's what AP represents.

Hilarious, you sound like John McCain whining about campaign
donations...




From rabbi at quickie.net  Tue Dec 11 21:41:38 2001
From: rabbi at quickie.net (Len Sassaman)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:41:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> [The "prompted a bunch of programmers to rethink" comment has it all
> backwards. Chained remailers were deployed in 1992. The theory was
> known from Chaum's 1981 paper, and the flaws in the
> Kremvax/Kleinpaste/Julf/Penet type of approach were widely known: this
> was why chained remailers, in multiple jurisdictions, were deployed.
> Hal Finney wrote the first code for this, building on the
> Perl/Sendmail scripts Eric Hughes had already released.]

The quoted portion is basically accurate (true to what I said), but I was
talking about theoretical attacks at that point. I think I said something
along the lines of:

"The cypherpunks developed a system based on the ideas in Chaum's 1981
paper. Penet-style remailers were potentially vulnerable to hackers and
court orders, which in fact ended up being the downfall of anon.penet.fi.
These problems prompted them to build better remailers."

I had this post up my screen when I was talking to him:
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.05.29-1997.06.04/msg00310.html

Penet was *in operation* prior to Eric and Hal's chained remailers, right?
If not, then that's my error.


--Len.




From wolf at priori.net  Tue Dec 11 22:07:23 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:07:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


"So far, U.S. and European authorities battling terrorism and cybercrime
have apparently focused their surveillance elsewhere. The FBI and the
National Security Agency, which monitors international telecommunications,
declined to comment on what strategy, if any, they have for dealing with
remailers."

That would have made the article much more interesting..

What *is* the FBI/etc.'s strategy on dealing with remailers, other than
ignoring them (and hoping that anti-spam/anti-terror legislation will make
them illegal?)


-MW-




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 22:13:29 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:13:29 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011211121523.02278070@mail.well.com>
References: <3C15CD33.16918.3370B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C168509.18807.84DAC7@localhost>


    --
On 11 Dec 2001, at 12:20, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Well, by your standards, any journalist who makes an
> innocent mistake would be a liar.

CNN edited interviews with people so as to make them appear
to admit to war crimes commited against civilians during the
Vietnam war, when the full transcript showed no such
admissions.  Those people threatened to sue.  CNN then paid
those people large sums of money in settlement of threatened
libel suits.  Under America's extremely liberal libel laws,
CNN would not have done so unless those defamed had a good
case of malicious libel.

> I think the truth is that the reporters honestly believed
> they had a solid story

If they believed that, why then did they falsify the
interviews?

The reporters may well have honestly believed that the US
used nerve gas to massacre civilians during the Vietnam war,
but they did not believe they had evidence for this that they
could show to the public.  So their perhaps honestly held
beliefs justified them in their own minds, in lying to the
public, in fabricating evidence that they did not possess.

If that was their rationalization then this was a classic
example of the vision of the anointed. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     BTQftYHIf8GtXCl4n9FZfxmMwvBd3TChGeVZEFDC
     4n0C1INs3LyzmQTF0zJYUiz0kZ7tFH7DNS1G9gLm5




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 22:13:29 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:13:29 -0800
Subject: "Spoiling" digital cash
In-Reply-To: <3C14DFF8.2989.35052EE1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C168509.31122.84DAE5@localhost>


    --
On 10 Dec 2001, at 16:16, georgemw at speakeasy.net wrote:

> An idea just popped into my head, I was wondering if anyone
> had thought of this before. Most likely someone has, and
> has either proven the idea is impossible or has figured out
> how to do it.
>
> Th idea is,  when buying some good or service with digital
> cash,  the customer first forwards the cash to the vendor 
> in some transformed way such that the vendor can't yet
> spend it, but can verify that it is good cash of the
> correct amount, and that the customer will no longer be
> able to spend it.
>
> The idea is, if the vendor follows through on his side, the
> customer will supply the additional information the vendor
> will need to redeem the cash.  The customer can still rip
> the vendor off by refusing to do so, but he has no
> incentive, the money's already gone for him.  Conversely, 
> an unscrupulous "vendor" could in principle trick a
> customer into throwing away money on nothing,  but he would
> gain no profit in doing so.

Vendor creates and blinds some tokens.  Asks buyer to have
them signed by money issuer.  Money issuer signs them, and
issues declaration that they have been signed.  Buyer gives
vendor the declaration, but not signatures.  After delivery,
gives signatures.


    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     vNpp48iuJszNXUqQ3P9/e7GUOEcHXoIDo33hfuKd
     4xRG9QbdRJM31N1Lt+bhH55JK5VQWVorCJq0o7gAp




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Dec 11 22:26:21 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:26:21 -0800
Subject: Quantum encryption hazard
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212063721.00a55b40@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: <3C16880D.2075.90A39E@localhost>


    --
On 12 Dec 2001, at 7:11, mattd wrote:
> Quantum mechanics based on heisenbergs uncertainty
> principal is under attack.The two slit experiment has
> another explanation that even revives 'ether'

I am happy to observe that the intellectual level of the
remaining socialists has been sliding downhill rapidly since
the fall of the Soviet Union.

Hey mattd, better get moving or you will miss your ride on
the comet. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     xV01avOvGdk9uFiNYAZ0peoqSalLt2RlpmuY+DBt
     4OgaYScm4fBba/rcg7Ft4mB2RMJSptAfORXJGJVRe




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 11 22:27:34 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:27:34 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <542B29CC-EEC9-11D5-9E82-0050E439C473@got.net>


On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 09:41 PM, Len Sassaman wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:
>
>> [The "prompted a bunch of programmers to rethink" comment has it all
>> backwards. Chained remailers were deployed in 1992. The theory was
>> known from Chaum's 1981 paper, and the flaws in the
>> Kremvax/Kleinpaste/Julf/Penet type of approach were widely known: this
>> was why chained remailers, in multiple jurisdictions, were deployed.
>> Hal Finney wrote the first code for this, building on the
>> Perl/Sendmail scripts Eric Hughes had already released.]
>
> The quoted portion is basically accurate (true to what I said), but I 
> was
> talking about theoretical attacks at that point. I think I said 
> something
> along the lines of:
>
> "The cypherpunks developed a system based on the ideas in Chaum's 1981
> paper. Penet-style remailers were potentially vulnerable to hackers and
> court orders, which in fact ended up being the downfall of 
> anon.penet.fi.
> These problems prompted them to build better remailers."
>
> I had this post up my screen when I was talking to him:
> http://www.inet-
> one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.05.29-1997.06.04/msg00310.html
>
> Penet was *in operation* prior to Eric and Hal's chained remailers, 
> right?
> If not, then that's my error.

The Kleinpaste/Julf anonymizing service had been in operation, widely, 
since 1991-2, before Cypherpunks, yes.

The CNN article is enormously misleading in many areas. The suggestiong 
that Lance Cottrell used the Julf experience to add nested encryption is 
false. The URL you quote above is one of the most detailed histories of 
remailers, even if I do say so myself. (Thanks for reminding me/us of 
it.)

 From your recollection of what you said to the reporter, it looks like 
the misunderstanding came from his thinking that the actual Penet 
failure was what triggered the modern remailer approach, when in fact 
you meant "these problems" in the sense that Chaum and others (us) 
realized the obvious limitations of "anonymity services."

And apparently the reporter then spun a story about how Lance Cottrell 
then invented message nesting, etc., all after the Penet failure. This 
is completely backwards. (It's not just the inaccuracy, or giving Lance 
too much credit...it's also that it makes it look as if we missed 
something so utterly obvious, that we were blindsided by the legal 
attack. Not so. And Chaum  knew this at least as far back as '81.)

In the big scheme of things, maybe no one who matters will read the CNN 
article. But it is false history and should be refuted. If not refuted, 
future historians who write about this interesting period may use it as 
primary source material.

If it isn't apparent, I make these points to correct the record, not to 
criticize Len, Lance, Julf, or anyone else. But as the URL above points 
out, we were fully aware of the problems with Kleinpaste/Julf-style 
services and knew they were neither interesting from our point of view 
or a stable basis for what we were seeking to build.

--Tim May
"Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and
strangled with her panty hose,  is somehow morally superior to a woman 
explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound"




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Dec 11 22:39:15 2001
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:39:15 -0800
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 10:07 PM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> "So far, U.S. and European authorities battling terrorism and cybercrime
> have apparently focused their surveillance elsewhere. The FBI and the
> National Security Agency, which monitors international 
> telecommunications,
> declined to comment on what strategy, if any, they have for dealing with
> remailers."
>
> That would have made the article much more interesting..
>
> What *is* the FBI/etc.'s strategy on dealing with remailers, other than
> ignoring them (and hoping that anti-spam/anti-terror legislation will 
> make
> them illegal?)

The article was not completely silent on speculations about FBI/LEA 
efforts: Magic Lantern was mentioned as a way to get the keys.

I'd guess that remops are likely targets for future "sneak and peek" 
black bag jobs. Warrants are no longer needed, say the criminals in D.C. 
(though the Constitution differs).

Packet sniffers are another approach. Remember that we have Shimomura's 
own words that he was working on such sniffers for various intelligence 
agencie back during the Mitnick affair.

Correlation analysis remains promising. Messages go in, messages leave. 
Without sufficient traffic to get the N^M entropy, imagine what 
sophisticate statistical analysis does to establish probable mappings.

As we (again) discussed at this past Saturday's physical meeting, in 
Santa Cruz, a sparse set of users and messages is almost a toy system. 
Remailer traffic needs to go up by a large factor, whether actual 
messages or dummy messages. Remailers need to be more robust (uptime, 
strong policies)  and need to be incentivized (paid remailers, an old 
topic).

A chicken or egg situation? Ideally, simultaneous development...plenty 
of precedents for market forces pushing stronger products that customers 
are willing to pay for.

--Tim May
"Dogs can't conceive of a group of cats without an alpha cat." --David 
Honig, on the Cypherpunks list, 2001-11




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 20:41:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:41:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The fucking essay
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212133250.00a0fab0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> "...the fucking essay. It's flawed in a variety of ways. It's understanding 
> of human psychology (which it purports to >manipulate in realistic ways - 
> not) is so flawed as to make it very tedious.
> 
> Speaking of tedious,Im on record with total opposition to freud being used 
> for anything other than birdcage liner.

Hate to break it to you but Freud <> Psychology.


I still havent read that part of AP 
> with any degree of attention.If thats what your referring to re.human 
> psychology then I heartily agree.Freud is extremely tedious.Where jim 
> appeals to
> the angels of our better nature is probably also flawed as a realistic 
> appeal to human psychology.(last page 10)

Jim appeals to nothing more than his own vanity.

What the fundamental flaw is to expect individuals to use AP to protect
themselves while at the same time expecting those attacked through AP to
do nothing other than lay down and take it.

If fundamentaly mis-understands that two wrongs don't make a right (even
if one is done in self-defence) and that when you attack a person their
reaction is to act in self defence.

It's just another example of the CACL failure with respect to the human
factor. On one hand they speak of what sheep, and on the other they
propose that these sheep will do the right thing 'if only....'.

Just plain silly.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Dec 11 20:44:15 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:44:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & unnatural monopolies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011211185426.009c78b0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:

> At 06:15 PM 12/11/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> >On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, David Honig wrote:
> >
> >> MIT's project *Athena* developed X because they had an equal mix of DEC
> >                      ^
> >                      What letter is next to 'a' on the keyboard? You
> >                      really should refrain from ad hominims.
> 
> A simple spelling correction is not an ad hominim.

Your responce was by the tone. My spelling error was irrelevant to the
issue at hand. If you really believed it was a simple spelling mistake you
would have just glossed right over it. You didn't, that act speaks for
itself.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------







From jw at bway.net  Tue Dec 11 16:44:34 2001
From: jw at bway.net (jw at bway.net)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:44:34 GMT
Subject: Year Zero: Private and self-censorship
Message-ID: 

Steganography, My Ass:
The Dangers of Private and Self-Censorship in Wartime
by Jonathan Wallace jw at bway.net

The categories of speech protected by the First Amendment are 
well-known, and despite the repetitive chatter on Internet mailing 
lists, are not in serious dispute. Supreme Court decisions 
interpreting the constitution have made absolutely clear that highly 
unpalatable political speech, and even words of quite hateful and 
violent import, have absolute protection (so long as they don't fall 
into the very narrow pigeonhole of threats conveying an immediate 
fear of violence to a specific individual). We can argue about what 
the First Amendment ought to protect, debate whether and how to 
change the Constitution. But there can be no serious discussion today 
of whether, for example, web pages calling for Jihad or approving the 
destruction of the World Trade Center and the murder of Americans, 
are protected by the First Amendment. They indisputably are.

Justice Holmes, creator of the operative metaphor for U.S. speech 
freedoms, the "marketplace of ideas", made clear in a famous dissent 
that the First Amendment's sweep reaches the most offensive political 
speech imaginable:


"If in the long run, the beliefs expressed in proletarian 
dictatorship are destined to be accepted by the dominant forces of 
the community, the only meaning of free speech is that they should be 
given their chance and have their way."

Yet pages approving violence and terrorism against the U.S. were 
pulled from numerous U.S.-based servers soon after September 11, 
without any recourse for the people maintaining them. The reason that 
there was no constitutional violation was that (as Internet debaters 
sometimes forget) the First Amendment only protects us against 
government interventions in speech. It doesn't protect us against 
each other.

Purveyors of free web space such as Geocities and Tripod have "Terms 
of Service" (TOS) contracts that users must accept which give the 
companies broad discretion to reject and close web sites for their 
presentation of constitutionally-protected but politically 
unpalatable speech. TOS violations were probably the single most 
important justification for the acts of commercial censorship which 
occurred this fall.

However, another more widespread but even less visible force at work 
chilling speech was the fear of job or social consequences of 
expression of unpopular ideas. In the first flush of emotion after 
the attacks, we had several remarkable examples, unusual mainly for 
being examples of public rather than highly private retaliations. 
Television host Bill Maher (paid after all for saying outrageous, 
attention-getting things) made the comment that terrorists who are 
willing to give their lives, whatever else they may be, cannot 
accurately be described as "cowardly". (By the way, he is right about 
this and I have made the same observation myself.) He then went a 
step further and said that firing cruise missiles from a distance is 
more properly described as "cowardly". Whatever you may believe about 
Maher's taste and timing, his words fall squarely within the 
protected realm of vivid American political speech--which extends in 
fact much further, to include radio talk show hosts descri!
bing how to kill federal "gun-grabbing" agents and NRA board members 
day-dreaming out loud about the murder of gun control advocates.

Maher soon after his statement was in danger of losing his 
job--something which hasn't happened yet--and received an 
unprecedented public rebuke from Presidential spokesman Ari 
Fleischer, whose remarks were later toned down in the official 
transcript:


"There are reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what 
they say, watch what they do, and this is not a time for remarks like 
that; there never is."

In the weeks after the attacks, we also heard of newspaper columnists 
losing their jobs for remarks that were actually rather mild compared 
to the rhetoric heaped on Bill Clinton for the last eight years. An 
Oregon newspaper, the Daily Courier, fired columnist Dan Guthrie 
after he wrote on September 15 that the president hid "in a Nebraska 
hole" when he should have returned to Washington after the attacks. 
First the newspaper's editor wrote a column apologizing for Guthrie, 
and stating that "Criticism of our chief executive and those around 
him needs to be responsible and appropriate..." Then publisher Dennis 
Mack fired Guthrie, describing it as a "private personnel matter".

Tom Gutting, city editor of the Texas City Sun was also fired by his 
publisher for commenting on the President's behavior the day of the 
attacks:


"There was W. flying around the country like a scared child seeking 
refuge in his mother's bed after having a nightmare....W. has behaved 
like you would expect a first lady to."

(For what its worth, I also agree with Guthrie and Gutting and spoke 
of Bush's disappearance in my own essay written on September 11.)

The conservative National Review dropped columnist Ann Coulter for 
the following opinion:


"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert 
them to Christianity..."

(Do I need to mention I don't agree with Coulter? However, I defend 
her right to blither.)

Through-out our history, more valuable information and debate has 
been stifled by private censorship (including the chilling fear of 
it) than by government intervention. Alexis de Tocqueville recognized 
the contradictory nature of U.S. society, in which freedom of speech 
so often translates into freedom to jump on the bandwagon:


"In our time, the most absolute sovereigns of Europe would have no 
idea how to prevent certain ideas, hostile to their authority, from 
circulating silently in their countries and even in the heart of 
their own courts. Its not at all the same in America: as long as the 
majority is uncertain, everyone speaks; but as soon as the majority 
has irrevocably decided, everyone shuts up, and friends and enemies 
alike seem then to jump, with one accord, on the public bandwagon. 
The reason is simple: there is no monarch so absolute that he can 
hold in his hand all of society's force and vanquish all resistance, 
to the same extent as a democratic majority with the right to make 
and execute the laws."

As disturbing as the firing of columnists is, an incident with even 
worse implications for U.S. democracy was the mainstream media's 
almost total obedience to the President's request that videos of bin 
Laden and other al Quaeda members not be televised. By all 
traditional standards, these were highly newsworthy. Transcripts of 
all of these were made available by the translation service of the 
BBC. For example, on November 3, Al Jazeera broadcast a bin Laden 
video. Bin Laden claimed that polls showed that the Islamic world 
approved of the attacks by a wide majority; spoke of world-wide 
demonstrations opposing U.S. action in Afghanistan; said that the 
Islamic world has been under the "crusader yoke" for 83 years, since 
World War I; and attacked the United Nations, which is widely 
respected in Arab nations for its support of Palestinians, for having 
tolerated or promoted violence against Moslems.

The bin Laden broadcast is newsworthy for several reasons. First, 
consistent with his other utterances, he never denies involvement in 
the U.S. attacks and goes to some length to justify them, supporting 
the circumstantial evidence of his involvement. Secondly, even in 
translation, his precise, rather Talmudic style of argument, with 
constant reference to long-past historical events, gives us 
significant insight into the personality of a once-faceless 
adversary. Third, his reference to the U.N. introduced a potential 
new target of Al Quaeda attacks.

I vaguely recall knowing who Osama bin Laden was before September 11: 
a clever murderer, lurking somewhere, who was linked to the killing 
of U.S. troops in Somalia, the African embassy bombings, and the 
attack on the Cole. Today, I have an intense interest in him, as 
someone who is trying to kill me personally, and that produces a 
desire to find out everything I can.

As I never tire of telling you, I arrived at the World Trade Center 
that morning just as the second plane hit. I saw the flames and 
falling paper, and tiny fragments of glass rained on my head. People 
were dying a short distance away from me; minutes later, as I was 
running across the bridge, I saw someone jump from the south tower.

I have a "pay to play" theory of democracy. I made a partial payment 
on September 11, and I'm willing to pay more: serve on the jury 
trying an Al Quaeda member, even join the armed forces if they'd have 
me. What I want in return is very simple: my seat at the table. And 
that means the information that goes with it. There can be no 
democracy without information; how do you decide what to do, what to 
support or to oppose, without it?

The excuses given by the government for its request not to broadcast 
or even print a transcript of the bin Laden video were laughable. 
Most prominently, the government announced that the videos might 
contain hidden messages, a technique called "steganography". Further 
terrorist attacks might be launched as a result of the bin Laden 
video being broadcast on CNN.

To which I say: Steganography, my ass. How stupid do President Bush, 
Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld believe we are? There has not yet 
been the slightest showing of any hidden messages in any bin Laden 
video, despite obedient, silly news pieces on CNN interviewing 
experts who could only say that it is imaginable that they could be 
there. In these supposedly balanced pieces, where were the experts 
saying how silly the idea was and that it was unsupported by any 
evidence?

Multiple choice question: If you were a terrorist trying to send a 
message to activate a U.S.-based cell, the most effective way to do 
so would be a. a telephone call b. an anonymous email c. Placing a 
classified ad in an obscure newspaper the cell was previously 
instructed to monitor d. Hiding the message in a fifteen minute video 
which you courier to Al Jazeera network and relying on them to 
broadcast it in its entirety enough times for your U.S.-based cell to 
see it.

Raise your hand if you think (d) is the best answer.

However, if bin Laden was strange enough to conceal messages in the 
video or in the language he used, asking CNN and the networks not to 
carry it was a completely ineffective way to block transmission of 
the message, given the fact that it had already been broadcast by Al 
Jazeera, translated and made available by the BBC, etc. Successful 
interdiction of a hidden message still wouldn't prevent the follow up 
phone call or email.

Note also that Rumsfeld et al. failed to run the football through the 
goalposts. If they had taken the steganography chimera to its logical 
conclusion, they could have asked American media to black out the war 
entirely. Taliban mortars might be firing rhythmically in some 
obscure Islamist Morse-like cadence. Afghan refugees in the 
background of crowd scenes might be making hand gestures. John 
Walker, the American Taliban member captured this week, might be 
twitching in code.

Vague, unsupported claims about steganography don't trump my interest 
in receiving accurate information about someone who is trying to kill 
me.

Our government's other statement justifying censorship of the bin 
Laden videos was more honest, though it got less play. Why give 
airtime to Al Quaeda propaganda? This is one of those statements that 
sounds credible, but is not. It pre-supposes two insulting things. 
One is that there is a U.S. audience susceptible to bin Laden's 
message (and Holmes would say that even if there were, they're 
entitled to hear it). The other is that the rest of us don't need or 
are not entitled to the information contained in the "propaganda". 
Propaganda is information; it is an extremely valuable source of 
knowledge about history, intention, and psychology. Mein Kampf is 
freely available in the U.S., and is read much more by people 
interested in understanding what happened than by those looking to 
reaffirm their hatred and desire to commit genocide. Like 
fundamentalists who condemn a book without having read it, the 
government message is that there is information in the world so 
volatile that we!
  are better off being protected from it.

I wanted to be treated as an adult even before September 11, and with 
my life in danger I feel even more strongly about it. Truth is one of 
the cornerstones of democracy; our vote, our decision-making ability, 
is impaired or destroyed when the government lies. The steganography 
story was a silly lie. The truth--the government's desire that bin 
Laden's ideas not be communicated, even though that means denying 
important information to citizens of a democracy--shows how far we 
have fallen from Justice Holmes' defiant and cheerful understanding 
that we can trust ourselves.

I was astonished by the way that the broadcast media immediately 
lined up behind the government without the mildest protest. 
Twenty-four hour news organs, like CNN, are extremely hungry for 
content, and had repeatedly played prior videos in their entirety, 
with simultaneous translation. Once the government asked them to 
stop, the newly-released video warranted only a brief mention without 
even a clip (for fear of those hidden messages).

Why were the broadcast media so docile? In part, for the same reason 
everyone else was. But broadcast media have a unique problem of their 
own, which we ignore or forget in trusting them for information. They 
are licensed and regulated by the FCC. Could the FCC legally pull a 
license from a station which broadcast the bin Laden video in full? 
No. Could the agency make its life quietly miserable? Absolutely. 
Broadcast media executives never forget who holds the leash.

Ernst Renan said that nations hold together based not only on 
collective memory but on collective forgetting as well. As a nation 
we have completely forgotten that the regulation of broadcast media 
began with a bloodbath about seventy years ago. The Federal Radio 
Commission, the FCC's predecessor, targeted political programming and 
drove it off the air to free the spectrum for commercial 
broadcasters. Even seven decades later, the bland, mainstream, 
nonchallenging nature of broadcast media is a product not only of 
audience desires but of the shadow of government regulation. As the 
ACLU's Morris Ernst said in the 1930's, "So long as the Department 
can determine which individuals shall be endowed with larynxes, it 
does not need additional power to determine what shall be said."

What about the print media? I was startled by the way they lined up 
too. In the New York Times, which I count on for much (too much) of 
my information about the world, the bin Laden video was no longer 
front page news and no transcript was published. Again we seem to 
have fallen a long way from the days of the Pentagon Papers and the 
brave stand the Washington Post and the Times made against the Nixon 
administration.

De Tocqueville provides the explanation. For most of the 1960's, the 
press also lined up to support the Vietnam war. When the press first 
began to examine the other side of the war--to ask questions about 
whether the strategy made sense, the tactics were working, whether 
civilians were being killed--they were moving in accordance with a 
power shift that was already taking place in America. The press was 
leading, but it was also following, like a middle manager or a 
mid-level military officer. Significant constituencies in U.S. 
business and politics had not waited for the Pentagon Papers to start 
wondering if the war made any sense. In de Tocqueville's terms, 
powerful people had already started jumping from the bandwagon. Which 
is not to say that the Post and Times were not brave, did not behave 
admirably, to stand up to the power (including the threat of illicit 
action and even violence) of the Executive Branch.

After September 11, everyone was on the bandwagon. As three months 
have passed without further Al Quaeda violence, and as we seem to be 
winning the war, the print media are less frightened and there is a 
slightly wider spread of opinion. Opposing voices have been heard on 
the military tribunals, for example.

Speaking as a hawk, one who believes this is a just war, I want to 
know where the antiwar voices were. CNN presented us with the usual 
assortment of ex-generals analyzing air strikes, but where was Noam 
Chomsky, saying that we shouldn't be bombing Afghanistan at all? I 
did not see Chomsky in the Times op ed pages either, nor any other 
guest editorial opposing the war. Certainly those voices are out 
there; Chomsky spoke out forcefully in the small publications which 
carry him. Why were antiwar views not represented in a mass media 
which still likes to think of itself as the "fourth estate", affected 
with a public interest?

Arriving at the truth in a democracy (as elsewhere) is a dialectical 
process, where opposing views muster information in support and each 
of us then makes our decision. Since September 11 the press has 
consistently and miserably failed to present the other side of a 
debate. It has not just failed to present the Al Quaeda view-- that 
Americans deserve to be killed--though that has informational value 
in evaluating personal risk and deciding what government responses to 
support. The press has even failed to present the view that the 
bombing of Afghanistan was a use of excessive force, or force applied 
in the wrong place; or the view that law, rather than war, is the 
answer.

My libertarian friends claim that the public responsibilities of the 
press are a myth, that a newspaper is a business like any other, and 
will only print what most of its audience wants to hear. But the 
Times serves other minorities, such as those who read the bridge 
column or the coverage of less popular sports; and diversity and even 
adversity on the op ed pages was once thought to sell papers. No, I 
think the true explanation of the obedient silence of the U.S. press 
is not fear of its own readership, but is due to a disturbance 
elsewhere in the force: a fear of offending a government and a 
majority strongly aligned with one another, de Tocqueville's 
"democratic majority with the right to make and execute the laws." 
But it is precisely in times like these that we most desperately need 
the information, as well as exposure to the variety of viewpoints 
that convey it.

**************************************************************************
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From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 22:16:29 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:16:29 -0500
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <3C168509.18807.84DAC7@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011211121523.02278070@mail.well.com>
  <3C15CD33.16918.3370B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212011539.00a769a0@mail.well.com>


Of course there are other considerations in a settlement, such as avoiding 
bad publicity -- even if you think you might win a case by arguing you made 
a mistake but it was not malicious. But you know that.

I expect this will be my last message in the thread.

-Declan

At 10:13 PM 12/11/2001 -0800, jamesd at echeque.com wrote:
>CNN edited interviews with people so as to make them appear
>to admit to war crimes commited against civilians during the
>Vietnam war, when the full transcript showed no such
>admissions.  Those people threatened to sue.  CNN then paid
>those people large sums of money in settlement of threatened
>libel suits.  Under America's extremely liberal libel laws,
>CNN would not have done so unless those defamed had a good
>case of malicious libel.




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 22:40:47 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:40:47 -0500
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: ; from
  nobody@dizum.com on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:20:25PM +0100
References: 
Message-ID: <20011212014047.A30112@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:20:25PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> Taxes (much higher than before due to the greater expenses of operating
> the government) could be charged based on imputed property values
> depending on zip code and acreage.  Everyone in a particular neighborhood
> would be charged a fixed amount per square foot.  Any household which
> does not provide the required fee (via cryptographic anonymous transfer
> into the government account of course) would have its property subject
> to confiscation by police.  Armed resistance would be met by military
> force including helicopter gunships.

Without getting into any AP discussion, I would point out that there
are some positive things to be said about turning to property taxes.

Also, if you fail to pay your property tax now, it will (in extremis)
be confiscated. Armed resistance to confiscation would be met by
escalation, including, if necessary, military helicopters.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 22:49:21 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:49:21 -0500
Subject: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
In-Reply-To: <200112120101.fBC11Bl09585@artifact.psychedelic.net>; from
  emc@artifact.psychedelic.net on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 05:01:11PM -0800
References: <20011211194218.A14237@cluebot.com>
  <200112120101.fBC11Bl09585@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <20011212014921.B30112@cluebot.com>


On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 05:01:11PM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
> OK.  How about "well-funded?"  :)
> 
> I count $1,270,000 in grants to the organization since its creation as the

Compared to giants like Brookings? Not well-funded, well-known, big,
nor powerful. Few folks even in DC have heard of it. $1M in grants
over a period of years is not much by Washington policy group standards.

-Declan




From declan at well.com  Tue Dec 11 23:01:07 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 02:01:07 -0500
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 06:12:17PM -0600
References:  
Message-ID: <20011212020107.C30112@cluebot.com>


Sigh. Choate on court decisions is like Ashcroft on civil liberties.
Neither understands them.

(Though I admit that Choate makes a common-sense point that does not,
alas, jibe the rulings in the crypto cases.)

-Declan

On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 06:12:17PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:
> 
> > In the most recent ruling, Universal v. Remerdez/Eric Corley 2600.com 
> > (00-9185), http://cryptome.org/mpaa-v-2600-cad.htm , the US Court of 
> > Appeals for the Second Circuit declined to overturn an injunction 
> > against the posting of DeCSS on the Internet. The Court held that 
> > software was speech, but did not enjoy the level of First Amendment 
> > protection accorded to pure speech because it is functional with 
> > little human intervention.
> 
> That's where 'press' comes into play. The 1st provides two protections.
> The first is to have an opinion and to express it, 'speech'. The second is
> 'press' which guarantees the right to share with other humans. Speech that
> is not shared, after all, is no better than speech not uttered. Now this
> explicitly protects the hardware and 'non-human' mechanisms that humans
> use to distribute their speech. The courts will eventually find that the
> sharing of speech, irrespective of mechanism, is protected. To deny an
> individual a mechanism to share their speech is in fact a violation of
> their speech. In addition the first does NOT draw ANY distinctions about
> what sorts of speech are or are not protected, it simply says 'speech' is 
> protected.
> 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From freematt at coil.com  Tue Dec 11 23:29:18 2001
From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 02:29:18 -0500
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship in Wartime
Message-ID: 



From noreply at cypherpunks.to  Tue Dec 11 18:21:19 2001
From: noreply at cypherpunks.to (Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 03:21:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: 


http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/12/10/anonymous.e.mail.ap/index.html


SAN JOSE, California (AP) -- For years, anonymous e-mail has been a choice 
tool for whistle-blowers, human rights activists and undercover sources 
looking to protect themselves while imparting vital information.

Anonymous online communication could just as easily be used by terrorists 
to plot attacks or send threats. 

Yet little has changed since September 11 for users and operators of 
Internet-based anonymous e-mail servers, which launder messages by 
deleting identifying information, rendering them virtually untraceable. 

Now there are indications the servers have increased in number. 

While no evidence has been released linking such services to any criminal 
or terrorist conspiracy, experts fear governments could crack down on 
anonymous remailers -- or at least subject them to greater scrutiny. 

Law enforcement generally despises technology that leaves such cold 
trails, said Mark Rasch, former head of the Department of Justice's 
computer crimes unit and current vice president of cyberlaw at Predictive 
Systems. 

So far, U.S. and European authorities battling terrorism and cybercrime 
have apparently focused their surveillance elsewhere. The FBI and the 
National Security Agency, which monitors international telecommunications, 
declined to comment on what strategy, if any, they have for dealing with 
remailers.

"There's a lot more concern about border security and banking records," 
said Mike Godwin, a policy fellow at the Center for Democracy and 
Technology. 

That's just fine with the people who operate remailers. They don't do it 
for money, but rather share a common ideal of protecting online privacy. 

Len Sassaman, an e-mail security consultant who runs a remailer as a 
hobby, thinks any attempts to crack down would lead to more cropping up 
around the world. 


[...]




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 11:07:36 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:07:36 +1100
Subject: AP Al Quim.I was a teenage assasin.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212054310.00a53eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >At 10:17 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote: >Jim seems to have missed out on 
teenagerhood.CJ seems not to have left >teenagerhood.The boiling pot is 
like darwins discovery of evolution,It The personal flaws of an author do 
not detract from his ideas.

What personal flaws? I mean no disrespect to jim and cj at all.To me 
teenagerhoods good.Very good.(check google if you dont believe me) Im sorry 
that it appears jim missed out a little.I have no way of knowing that 
actually so Im taking liberties.I guess jim got into trouble for 
stinkbombing,destroying mail and stalking because he just wanted to get 
more publicity?
And CJ was clearly set up but from what I read of his he has a great spirit 
that gets crushed out of most of us some time between childhood and 
adulthood.If growing up means accepting 5 million laws and all the grey 
mind dead bureaucrats
that go with them,I refuse to grow up.
The ideas remain undetracted by my petty bitching about jims use of freud 
and his choice of restaurants,what was the supposed 'hate' literature in 
his car btw?
CJ is immaculate in my book.The very model of a modern major madcriminal.I 
just cant read all his stuff,right away.Im fuckin busy man,allright?

KILLTHEPRESIDENTTHENBILLGATESTHENDICKCHENEYTHENTHENEXTPRESIDENTANDSOONFOREVERKILLKILL.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 11:27:50 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:27:50 +1100
Subject: AP Al quim
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212061517.00a53360@pop.useoz.com>


.>..regarding Assassination Politics: > > Just keep in mind that AP is a 
joke among knowledgeable > > technologists for >its unworkability, but a 
wonderful joke > > on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt. > 
Total bullshit again. Yes, but the reason it's bullshit is that shooting 
messengers does no good. It leaves intact the originators of the message, 
all hundred- million of them. Tomorrow, the hundred million will be 
stumbling over each other trying to empower new messengers to replace those 
fallen. Who else but the messengers (politicians, bureaucrats, etc.) is 
going to collect the >money to pay the Social Security, after all? Who else 
is going to halt the drug trade?

Assassination Politics
Convicted tax evader Jim Bell proposes a system of anonymous ecash awards 
for the murder of "aggressors", such as IRS agents. See also Crypto-Convict 
Won't Recant. What he misses is that his system, if tolerated, would merely 
force government to operate secretly rather than openly
FROM http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html

Jim says in the essay,It doesnt have to be,"wild in the streets"He doesn't 
miss a trick.He talks of the possibility of minarchy.Does anyone actually 
read the fucking essay? I part with him on offing forest grunts,btw.Its not 
about shooting 'messengers'.Its about making very credible threats to limit 
violence.Paradoxical but effective.
Halting the drug trades as imbecilic an idea as a "war on terror"
KILLTHEPRESIDENTKILLTHEPRESIDENTFASTERPUSSYCATKILLKILL.




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 11:36:53 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:36:53 +1100
Subject: N-grams and the state, 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212063222.00a53d60@pop.useoz.com>


At 11:25 AM 12/11/01 +1100, mattd wrote:
 >"...What are N-Grams? N-Gram Analysis is a a method patented by the NSA
..."
 >
 >"You spooks are a bunch of gray, snivelling, alcoholic, Aldrich Ames
 >lookalikes driving around in your rusty Toyotas."

Perhaps, but this does not negate the discriminative value of n-grams.

END.

Look baba rum raisin,Your right,I rush sometimes,relying on the good will 
and intelligence of the list and I make mistakes.Im sorry.OK.Ill try not to 
do it again.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 04:49:26 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:49:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: <20011212014047.A30112@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Without getting into any AP discussion, I would point out that there
> are some positive things to be said about turning to property taxes.
> 
> Also, if you fail to pay your property tax now, it will (in extremis)
> be confiscated. Armed resistance to confiscation would be met by
> escalation, including, if necessary, military helicopters.

So the property you own is really(!) owned by the state and you pay the
initial payments for title transfer and the taxes during occupation
(sounds like rent doesn't it?) unless you default in which case they take
their property back...

Seems to me the ideal strategy is to not own anything of significant
value.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 04:52:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:52:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, Tim May wrote:

> strong policies)  and need to be incentivized (paid remailers, an old 
> topic).

The perenial failing in the CACL approach to this problem, and the primary
reason they will fail. They'll sit around on their ass waiting until they
can make money...gives you an idea of where their priorities REALLY are.

> A chicken or egg situation? Ideally, simultaneous development...plenty 
> of precedents for market forces pushing stronger products that customers 
> are willing to pay for.

Really? Example please.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 04:55:40 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:55:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: <20011212020107.C30112@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Sigh. Choate on court decisions is like Ashcroft on civil liberties.
> Neither understands them.

Ad hominim, ad hominim, ad nausium.

Grow up Declan.

> (Though I admit that Choate makes a common-sense point that does not,
> alas, jibe the rulings in the crypto cases.)

The rulings ARE what we're talking about changing. In addition we're not
talking about what IS but what SHOULD be.

Your assertions of 'how it will be' and 'how it should be' are no more
valid than mine (and a hell of a lot less accurate if you go back and look
at what actually happened).

No, the current bitching over crypto and IP will be resolved in the next
ten years. One way or another. And to decide how we, as individuals,
should participate and to what end is guided by NOTHING else than common
sense (Isn't there a very important book with a similar title that's of
some import to this discussion?).


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 05:07:07 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:07:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange (fwd)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Hi,

I have the highest regard for Phil (ever since I got PGP 1.0 off Adelante
BBS about two days after Phil released the program - I still have that
disk and posted an image to the CDR last New Years) - HOWEVER....

These ideas are NOT Phil's. A perusal of the CDR archives will demonstrate
that I've been working and talking on these ideas for over ten years.

If Phil, or any others, would like to participate in a real world
demonstration of this sort of technology over the next couple of years
then I invite them to review,

http://plan9.bell-labs.com

and to participate in the community project,

http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote:

> 
> 
> -- Eugen* Leitl leitl
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:37:52 -0500
> From: David Shaw 
> To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
> Cc: Seth David Schoen 
> Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange
> 
> On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:42:26PM -0800, Seth David Schoen wrote:
> 
> > > So Phil's robot CA idea actually sounds more practical to me than
> > > Brad's idea; in particular, it has better compatibility with regular
> > > PGP encryption -- and it seems that it may be more robust in some
> > > ways.  The robot CA is intuitive and fairly secure if you don't expect
> > > active MITM attacks.
> >
> > The Board of Directors of EFF met today in San Francisco, and I made a
> > presentation about this, in the presence of Brad Templeton and others.
> > One of the conclusions was that EFF's role in implementing something
> > like this is still not defined clearly enough, and we don't know what
> > we could most usefully do.
> >
> > For example, some people like the idea of standardizing protocols
> > through the IETF; others prefer a completely independent development
> > of a spec (possibly with advance commitments or at least expressions
> > of interest from vendors), and then submission to standards bodies
> > after the technical work is more of a fait accompli.  There is some
> > disagreement about who exactly should write which code, for what
> > platform, and what effect it would have for different people (e.g.
> > famous cryptographers, civil liberties organizations, well-known
> > scientists or network engineers) to endorse various approaches in
> > various places.
> >
> > We want to figure out more about what EFF can best do to make this
> > happen.  Brad Templeton is planning to write to Phil Zimmermann, and I
> > plan to write to Phil Karn and some other people.
> 
> After the Zimmermann article appeared, I emailed him and we spoke on
> the phone for a few hours about the possibilities here.  He's an
> interesting guy.  We discussed some concerns I had with the robot CA
> concept as without client support, or a special robot keyserver along
> with (or part of) the robot CA, there are some problems.  All in all,
> I like his ideas for the robot CA (he had some ideas to extend this to
> a robot "designated revoker" as well as a few other useful things).
> 
> > Brad was concerned that the robot CA is a single point of failure and
> > an easy target for attacks (DOS, subpoena, physical intrusions); it
> > _does_ hold some secret and trusted information (its own private
> > signing key) and also has a uniquely valuable key which can be
> > compromised -- an event which would tend to undermine the entire
> > scheme.  He added that both schemes are equally secure against passive
> > wiretapping, and the scheme he outlined can survive even if the
> > organizations which originally supported it go away.
> 
> One possible way to address some of Brad's concerns with Phil
> Zimmermann's scheme is to create a meta-key, stored offline, with some
> rigidly followed procedure for its use (this should be analogous to a
> non-robot CA master key handling).  Use this key to sign a number of
> additional keys[1] for each robot CA.  This gives you a few
> improvements - one, you have more than one robot CA, all equally
> valid, so there is no longer a single point of failure.  A reasonable
> optimization here would be for each robot to look for a signature from
> a different robot and refuse to sign.  In the case of robot compromise
> (legal or illegal), the robot's key can be revoked.  This may hurt the
> people who had their keys signed by that particular robot, but does
> not affect the rest.  This revision also allows the scheme to survive
> if some of the robots go away - as long as the keeper of the master
> key does not go away.
> 
> For me, the piece of the "get everyone using encryption" project that
> Brad really hit on the head is the need for absolutely zero UI.
> 
> To do this well in the client, we're really going to need some amount
> of vendor buy-in.  Without zero (or pretty darn close to zero) UI, we
> can poke around with simplifying key management for years without
> accomplishing much because of the "If I have to do anything to use it,
> then I won't use it" mindset.  I don't really like doing the
> encryption in the MTA as that puts the responsibility on a machine in
> the ISP.  This machine is likely to be a far richer prize to an
> attacker than a home box, as well as being far more snoopable on via
> legal or illegal means.
> 
> > I want to bifurcate the issue and ask everyone here:
> >
> > (1) What's the best design for an "informal key exchange" scheme in
> > which active MITM attacks may be permitted, but privacy against
> > passive wiretapping (as well as trivial impersonation attacks) is
> > maintained?  How can this be implemented with the smaller amount of
> > user interface, while maintaining the largest amount of compatibility
> > in both directions with existing e-mail privacy systems for
> > sophisticated users?
> 
> The easiest thing to do would be a email header that contains key
> information.  Loads of people do this already ("X-My-PGP-Key: ..." and
> similar).  If we could standardize a format, then smart clients could
> use it to automatically fetch the key.  I'd suggest some sort of URL,
> for maximum flexibility.  For bandwidth and messiness reasons, I don't
> really like the S/MIME feature of sending the key around all the time.
> 
> Using a new email header for this has the nice feature of not breaking
> any of the current email infrastructure - any non-capable clients will
> just ignore it.
> 
> > (2) What's the best way to get such a system designed and deployed to
> > the general public?  How can an organization like EFF best help
> > accomplish this?  Whose help do we need?
> 
> Microsoft (like it or not, they make one of the most widely used MUAs
> on the planet).  AOL/Netscape.  And the developers of as many mailers
> we can get to listen.  If this only happens in the open-source world,
> then we're not really solving the problem.
> 
> Way back when, Netscape did a cute thing to push https: it made a big
> deal of the security icons on the browser, and made sure that you knew
> you did not have an encrypted connection when you submitted a form.
> I'd love to see mailers scold the user this way if they tried to send
> an unencrypted email.
> 
> I favor using OpenPGP as the underlying protocol for all of this as
> there is wide understanding of OpenPGP and lots of code available
> under various licenses, including the GPL.  Using OpenPGP also allows
> "power users" to use the full OpenPGP trust model if they choose to
> without affecting the people using the simplified model.
> 
> I am very interested in working on these problems with anyone else who
> would like to join me.
> 
> David
> 
> [1] This could also be OpenPGP-style signing subkeys, but for a
>     handful of reasons (the keyservers not handling keys like that
>     very well for starters) it may better to use other keys.
> 
> -- 
>    David Shaw  |  dshaw at jabberwocky.com  |  WWW http://www.jabberwocky.com/
> +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>    "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX.
>       We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson
> 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 05:09:46 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:09:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The fucking essay 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212233256.00aae9d0@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

>  >>Hate to break it to you but Freud <> Psychology.
> 
> On choate prime maybe.Read G.steinem on fraud? I do reckon WH Reich <> mass 
> pschology of fascism.

Yeah, right. Keep telling yourself that. Clearly you've NEVER actually
talked or read a psych book in the last 50 years.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 12:11:55 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:11:55 +1100
Subject: Quantum encryption hazard
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212063721.00a55b40@pop.useoz.com>


Quantum mechanics based on heisenbergs uncertainty principal is under 
attack.The two slit experiment has another explanation that even revives 
'ether'
According to electrical engineering professor,bill honig.
The theory feynman was sure no one quite understood and einstein mistrusted 
may be about to be superceded with potential to crack crypto's,holy 
grail,Quantum encryption.
Quantum mechanics is 75 years young and the cornerstone of the modern 
scientific world view.But it has its dissidents.
Bill honig's an internationally recognized inventor,journal editor and long 
time academic at curtin university.A skeptical inquirer whose doubts about 
the orthodoxy are caused by logic.
His rebellion took shape as a  teen  prodigy at a brooklyn high 
school,asking too many questions about quantum mechanics.He went into 
electrical engineering and rose high in military research.Then in 
mid-career,while working on nuclear weapons he had a change of 
heart.Looking in an atlas for a new home that might be safe and peaceful 
and passing over iceland he settled on perth.WA.au.
Believing we can and must describe the fundamental particles of matter as 
they really are there and not blurs of probability is carrying on einsteins 
fight.In this old/new picture of the subatomic world,the basic particles 
are spinning,electromagnetically
charged droplets;as they change speed they cast off expanding 
"photexes"that are compared with smoke rings,rippling outward.Space is an 
ether made up of two oppositely charged fluids.
END extract.more at... http://www.physicsessays.com/  Honig has picked up 
and carried forward work by paul dirac.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 05:28:42 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:28:42 -0600
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
Message-ID: <3C175B8A.8E03FFBF@ssz.com>


Who again has been saying for 10+ years that this sort of behaviour (incl.
Open Relay scanning, which isn't covered here) is trespass? Check the
archives folks...will Declan give predictive credit where credit is due?
Probably not, that takes being honest...

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49031,00.html


-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 05:31:21 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:31:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: : Re: AP Al Qaeda 
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213012017.00a17310@pop.useoz.com>
Message-ID: 



Get your damn quoting right, Declan didn't right the '> >' delimited text
as you indicate.

On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, mattd wrote:

> > So the property you own is really(!) owned by the state and you pay
> > the initial payments for title transfer and the taxes during occupation 
> > (sounds like rent doesn't it?) unless you default in which case they take 
> > their property back... Seems to me the ideal strategy is to not own 
> > anything of significant value.
> 
> "Aint got nothing,got nothing to lose"
> 
> A lot of barristers have gone bankrupt lately,It hasn't cramped their 
> billing style though.This threads veering into socialistic territory,Im 
> telling jamesd!
> Also AP comes out of tax revolt,dont try and separate it out,declan.Start a 
> new thread on property taxes.Im taxing the land
> where the cato institute stands,btw.If I dont get 100,000 k per annum I 
> send in my new OSD black helicopters.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 12:50:15 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:50:15 +1100
Subject: 48 hours
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212074213.00a3f110@pop.useoz.com>


The au puppet satellite state is bringing in legislation to allow unnamed 
secret police (against law to reveal their ID)
to kidnap and keep people 48 hous.Presumably they may then be 
rekidnapped.My response at melb indymedia.



48 hours in a windowless box,under full time,lights on surveillance with a 
toothache?
been there,done that.
With creeping secrecy y'all wont have to worry your pretty little heads at 
all.A drumhead secret military court can disappear independent journalists 
without a trace.

"The govt.doesn't protect me from the terrorists,the govt.is the terrorist"

AND

What scares the state?
by proffr 5:58pm Thu Nov 29 '01



The state fear 'assasination politics'
I hope they are correct to do so.
Lawyers and journalists should be stocking up on crypto right now and no 
one should do business with a lawyer or journalist without 
crypto,preferably in a confessional box.

Before 1975, most of us would not have been able to imagine public-key 
encryption.Encryption can pose potentially insurmountable challenges to law 
enforcement and should when law enforcement becomes kidnapping.

The governmental powers that be can't do much about drug-dealing or 
terrorism--if only because they themselves are the chief drug dealers and 
the chief terrorists.Fuck this government. We are the government and we say 
what happens and doesn't happen in this country.




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Dec 12 08:20:28 2001
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:20:28 -0800
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and 
  Self-Censorship in Wartime
In-Reply-To: <20011212103938.A21310@cluebot.com>
References: 
  
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011212082028.009cb150@pop.sprynet.com>


At 10:39 AM 12/12/01 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>PS: Not all libertarians believe the "the public responsibilities of
>the press are a myth." It's entirely possible to reconcile that phrase
>with the idea that a newspaper is a for-profit business.
>

I'm afraid the closest I can come is to recognize that a presscorp
(or reporter!) has only its reputation to sell; and when bias is exposed
that is
reduced.  But no 'public' anything; a newspaper (like a web server) does not
need a 'public' license to use a 'public' resource like the EM spectrum or
the cable infrastructure.

Just my 2 picas.




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Dec 12 09:02:18 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:02:18 -0800
Subject: UPI editor: dissent is like soviet propoganda
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212011539.00a769a0@mail.well.com>
References: <3C168509.18807.84DAC7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C171D1A.13747.2A30C3@localhost>


    --
On 12 Dec 2001, at 1:16, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> Of course there are other considerations in a settlement,
> such as avoiding bad publicity -- even if you think you
> might win a case by arguing you made a mistake but it was
> not malicious.

Just google through the Tailwind debate.  The CNN supporters
said that the tape contained clear admissions of war crimes,
which of course it did.  I just quoted one such seemingly
clear, unambiguous admission of enormous war crimes at the
start of this thread.

The interviewees denied saying what the tape showed them to
be saying.  Then, under great pressure, CNN released the
transcript.

 The CNN opponents pointed out that the transcript of  the
 material that was edited into the tape did not contain these
 admissions.

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     vwLPU/rJyiCOkPVZmXdWV4gTv42cEm3WgHDYaeaG
     4w/137NdrfRTn1IAcef9FvJYsRFgjs++515BhAJ2d




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Dec 12 06:16:41 2001
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:16:41 -0500
Subject: Choate vs mattd [was: RE: The fucking essay]
Message-ID: 



This should be fun to watch. Let's hope the
result is similar to the matchup of the Kilkenny cats.

    "There once were two cats of Kilkenny 
     Each thought there was one cat too many 
     So they fought and they fit, 
     And they scratched and they bit, 
     Till excepting their nails and the tips of their tails 
     Instead of two cats there weren't any."

Peter Trei




From db at db.com  Wed Dec 12 09:22:19 2001
From: db at db.com (Dirk Boxcuttah)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:22:19 -0800
Subject: cryptographic fantasy (ca. "Stego, my ass" by WF Buckley)
Message-ID: <3C17924B.C5F2B6AD@db.com>


The notion that Osama would use a filmed interview to
send out recondite commands is cryptographic fantasy.

 William F. Buckley Jr.
OSAMA THE INVINCIBLE
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ucwb/20011211/cm/osama_the_invincible_1.html




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Dec 12 09:27:37 2001
From: jamesd at echeque.com (jamesd at echeque.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:27:37 -0800
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and 
  Self-Censorship in Wartime
In-Reply-To: <20011212103938.A21310@cluebot.com>
References: ; from 
  freematt@coil.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:29:18AM -0500
Message-ID: <3C172309.27025.4160CC@localhost>


    --
On 12 Dec 2001, at 10:39, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> * Is it appropriate to use the powerful word "censorship"
> to describe what happened when the National Review dropped
> Ann Coulter? Coulter has other outlets that will publish
> her work; she is not muzzled. Like other news organizations
> with a certain perspective, the National Review has an
> implicit contract with their writers that says something 
> like 
> our-publication-has-a-distinct-point-of-view-and-we-don't-w
> ant-to-run- stuff-far-outside-of-it. In the absence of
> evidence to the contrary, it's reasonable to assume that
> she understood this implicit agreement when she signed up.
> More to the point, she (I recall) took her initial 
> grievance over not running the column public and slammed
> the editors, who then axed her. Using "censorship" to
> characterize the facts of this dispute weakens the term for
> when it's really needed -- to describe government action
> that puts people in prison cells.

There has been far more concern about opponents of the war
being intimidated than supporters.  Yet the nearest thing to
real censorship happened to Ann Coulter, for calling for holy
war against Muslims.  Meanwhile college professors loudly
complain that the occupants of the trade towers had it coming
to them for imperialism, colonialism, and oppression, and
keep their jobs, and a comic strip spits on the flag, and is
not dropped.

What happened to Ann Coulter is not censorship, but it is lot
closer to censorship than the fact that the tenured
supporters of terror find themselves mentioned as tenured
supporters of terror. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald
     6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
     ECRQ3GNzWa3w1DfiuPn0yEoQADgEGvtt2hHaEfve
     4/reRMzTElycsdxaYn+TsS9bCQ0dkjGh1f8NApxoB




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 14:50:18 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:50:18 +1100
Subject: Nobrain nescio
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212091639.00a46eb0@pop.useoz.com>


 >>But with AP any small group of people that can put up enough money to
 >hire an assassin can get their way.  The going rate for a murder is
around $5-10K to off an average person, more if he's heavily guarded.
 >If 100 people put up $100 each then that's enough to get someone killed.

Thats what I keep telling them at indymedia,we can leverage our numbers to 
bring justice and protect freedom of speech.
Indy keeps no logs and you can go there quad anon,pledge your bloc's 5-10 k 
and leave.Payable after the revolution,no crypto required.This is operation 
soft drill and will leave cypherpunks as a right racist cul de sac.

 >>Imagine a secret ballot where any measure to increase government power
would pass if it received as few as 100 votes.  How much freedom would
 >you have left in such a society?  That's what AP represents.

Der,as much freedom as you have now? Is it true there are 5 million laws in 
the US now?

 >And keep in mind that the people buying the assassination are fully
anonymous.  There is no way to know who is funding the AP market.  There
is no check or limit on the extent to which anonymous individuals with
 >>private grievances can buy the deaths of anyone who gets in their way.

NOMEN

AP or militant anti-choice fanatics already operating? In the 'let it all 
hang out' version of AP,operation soft drill,no ones anonymous unless they 
want,its an exercise in civil disobedience and whats the charge again? 
betting on a date?
SAMPLE
OSD international calls for pledges to be pooled and paid for the closest 
prediction of the exact time that noshame nescio ceases to post silly 
rubbish to this list.I pledge 1 dollar,I will send to the anonymous predictor.

 >>Police forces, heavily armed and always travelling in teams,
will receive their orders via encrypted, digitally signed messages from
elected officials.  Any government official who must interact with the
public, whether a building inspector, a drivers' license examiner, even
a fireman, would get hazardous duty pay.  Wearing masks might become
 >routine for such officials.

Wow! No one will ever find them out! They would be queuing up to predict 
the retirement of any ashcroft on steroids who tried this 
foolishness.Listen to yourself.Are you an american? (Minarchy anyone?)

 >>Taxes (much higher than before due to the greater expenses of operating
the government) could be charged based on imputed property values
depending on zip code and acreage.  Everyone in a particular neighborhood
would be charged a fixed amount per square foot.  Any household which
does not provide the required fee (via cryptographic anonymous transfer
into the government account of course) would have its property subject
 >to confiscation by police.  Armed resistance would be met by military
 >force including helicopter gunships.

Isnt this already going on? RICO.(+like the anti-abortion zealots 
thang.)Could lead to violent revolt,
if true.The police state would have to be 1984 in size and scope.2 million 
prisoners in US gulag.(dont frighten the horses:)
No sense of citizens options here nes.Like rent strikes,slowdowns,defacing 
the currency,the list is endless.
Read some  anarchy,or even cia(nica manual) will you,there are some 
anarchists here.

 >>We can live in a world of crypto anarchy, but it won't be pretty.  And the
government certainly won't wither away.  Anyone who thinks that attacking
the government will weaken it should have learned a lesson from September
 >11th.  When it feels itself under attack, the government strikes back

How can we have our crypto anarchic cake and eat it? There is finally one 
question only,who is to be master,thats all?
We live in crypto anarchy more and more."The bourgeois fascist state may 
leave this world in
ruins but dont forget who built those cities and can build them again for 
themselves.
We have always lived in ruins and holes in the wall,yet its us that will 
inherit the earth,
we carry a new world in our hearts...that world is growing as we speak." 
Durrutti.

 >We are all the losers as our freedoms are destroyed.

All things must be paid for in this world.Tanstaafl.Shrub? "Id buy that for 
a dollar!"


KILLTHEPRESIDENTKILLTHEPRESIDENTFASTERPUSSYCATKILLKILL.




From declan at well.com  Wed Dec 12 07:39:38 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:39:38 -0500
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship in Wartime
In-Reply-To: ; from
  freematt@coil.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:29:18AM -0500
References: 
Message-ID: <20011212103938.A21310@cluebot.com>


I always enjoy Jonathan's essays, and this one is no exception. He
properly points out the disturbing analogy that Attorney General
Ashcroft seems to make (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02900.html)
between criticism and treason. The craven broadcast media, as
Jonathan says, buckling to government "please-don't-air-this" pressure
is almost as disgraceful.

But a few points:

* Is it appropriate to use the powerful word "censorship" to describe
what happened when the National Review dropped Ann Coulter? Coulter
has other outlets that will publish her work; she is not muzzled. Like
other news organizations with a certain perspective, the National
Review has an implicit contract with their writers that says something
like
our-publication-has-a-distinct-point-of-view-and-we-don't-want-to-run-
stuff-far-outside-of-it. In the absence of evidence to the contrary,
it's reasonable to assume that she understood this implicit agreement
when she signed up. More to the point, she (I recall) took her initial
grievance over not running the column public and slammed the editors,
who then axed her. Using "censorship" to characterize the facts of
this dispute weakens the term for when it's really needed -- to
describe government action that puts people in prison cells.

* Of course it's disturbing when government officials tell Americans
to self-censor. But it is also important to note, lest this vital fact
be lost in the charges of "private censorship," that I can think of no
court action the government has taken to prevent people from speaking
or publishing information about the "war on terror." A quick review of
(http://www.ncac.org/issues/freeex911.html) doesn't show anything.
Obviously phone calls from White House aides can have a chilling
effect, but then again the news organization or ISP can stand firm and
call the government's bluff. (And yes, I'd say this lack of such cases
is due in large part to the actions of civil libertarians like
Jonathan.)

-Declan

PS: Not all libertarians believe the "the public responsibilities of
the press are a myth." It's entirely possible to reconcile that phrase
with the idea that a newspaper is a for-profit business.


On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:29:18AM -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote:
> From: jw at bway.net
> To: freematt at coil.com
> Subject: Year Zero: Private and self-censorship
> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:44:34 GMT
> 
> 
> Steganography, My Ass:
> The Dangers of Private and Self-Censorship in Wartime
> by Jonathan Wallace jw at bway.net
> 
> The categories of speech protected by the First Amendment are 
> well-known, and despite the repetitive chatter on Internet mailing 
> lists, are not in serious dispute. Supreme Court decisions 
> interpreting the constitution have made absolutely clear that highly 
> unpalatable political speech, and even words of quite hateful and 
> violent import, have absolute protection (so long as they don't fall 
> into the very narrow pigeonhole of threats conveying an immediate 
> fear of violence to a specific individual). We can argue about what 
> the First Amendment ought to protect, debate whether and how to 
> change the Constitution. But there can be no serious discussion today 
> of whether, for example, web pages calling for Jihad or approving the 
> destruction of the World Trade Center and the murder of Americans, 
> are protected by the First Amendment. They indisputably are.
> 
> Justice Holmes, creator of the operative metaphor for U.S. speech 
> freedoms, the "marketplace of ideas", made clear in a famous dissent 
> that the First Amendment's sweep reaches the most offensive political 
> speech imaginable:
> 
> 
> "If in the long run, the beliefs expressed in proletarian 
> dictatorship are destined to be accepted by the dominant forces of 
> the community, the only meaning of free speech is that they should be 
> given their chance and have their way."
> 
> Yet pages approving violence and terrorism against the U.S. were 
> pulled from numerous U.S.-based servers soon after September 11, 
> without any recourse for the people maintaining them. The reason that 
> there was no constitutional violation was that (as Internet debaters 
> sometimes forget) the First Amendment only protects us against 
> government interventions in speech. It doesn't protect us against 
> each other.
> 
> Purveyors of free web space such as Geocities and Tripod have "Terms 
> of Service" (TOS) contracts that users must accept which give the 
> companies broad discretion to reject and close web sites for their 
> presentation of constitutionally-protected but politically 
> unpalatable speech. TOS violations were probably the single most 
> important justification for the acts of commercial censorship which 
> occurred this fall.
> 
> However, another more widespread but even less visible force at work 
> chilling speech was the fear of job or social consequences of 
> expression of unpopular ideas. In the first flush of emotion after 
> the attacks, we had several remarkable examples, unusual mainly for 
> being examples of public rather than highly private retaliations. 
> Television host Bill Maher (paid after all for saying outrageous, 
> attention-getting things) made the comment that terrorists who are 
> willing to give their lives, whatever else they may be, cannot 
> accurately be described as "cowardly". (By the way, he is right about 
> this and I have made the same observation myself.) He then went a 
> step further and said that firing cruise missiles from a distance is 
> more properly described as "cowardly". Whatever you may believe about 
> Maher's taste and timing, his words fall squarely within the 
> protected realm of vivid American political speech--which extends in 
> fact much further, to include radio talk show hosts descri!
> bing how to kill federal "gun-grabbing" agents and NRA board members 
> day-dreaming out loud about the murder of gun control advocates.
> 
> Maher soon after his statement was in danger of losing his 
> job--something which hasn't happened yet--and received an 
> unprecedented public rebuke from Presidential spokesman Ari 
> Fleischer, whose remarks were later toned down in the official 
> transcript:
> 
> 
> "There are reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what 
> they say, watch what they do, and this is not a time for remarks like 
> that; there never is."
> 
> In the weeks after the attacks, we also heard of newspaper columnists 
> losing their jobs for remarks that were actually rather mild compared 
> to the rhetoric heaped on Bill Clinton for the last eight years. An 
> Oregon newspaper, the Daily Courier, fired columnist Dan Guthrie 
> after he wrote on September 15 that the president hid "in a Nebraska 
> hole" when he should have returned to Washington after the attacks. 
> First the newspaper's editor wrote a column apologizing for Guthrie, 
> and stating that "Criticism of our chief executive and those around 
> him needs to be responsible and appropriate..." Then publisher Dennis 
> Mack fired Guthrie, describing it as a "private personnel matter".
> 
> Tom Gutting, city editor of the Texas City Sun was also fired by his 
> publisher for commenting on the President's behavior the day of the 
> attacks:
> 
> 
> "There was W. flying around the country like a scared child seeking 
> refuge in his mother's bed after having a nightmare....W. has behaved 
> like you would expect a first lady to."
> 
> (For what its worth, I also agree with Guthrie and Gutting and spoke 
> of Bush's disappearance in my own essay written on September 11.)
> 
> The conservative National Review dropped columnist Ann Coulter for 
> the following opinion:
> 
> 
> "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert 
> them to Christianity..."
> 
> (Do I need to mention I don't agree with Coulter? However, I defend 
> her right to blither.)
> 
> Through-out our history, more valuable information and debate has 
> been stifled by private censorship (including the chilling fear of 
> it) than by government intervention. Alexis de Tocqueville recognized 
> the contradictory nature of U.S. society, in which freedom of speech 
> so often translates into freedom to jump on the bandwagon:
> 
> 
> "In our time, the most absolute sovereigns of Europe would have no 
> idea how to prevent certain ideas, hostile to their authority, from 
> circulating silently in their countries and even in the heart of 
> their own courts. Its not at all the same in America: as long as the 
> majority is uncertain, everyone speaks; but as soon as the majority 
> has irrevocably decided, everyone shuts up, and friends and enemies 
> alike seem then to jump, with one accord, on the public bandwagon. 
> The reason is simple: there is no monarch so absolute that he can 
> hold in his hand all of society's force and vanquish all resistance, 
> to the same extent as a democratic majority with the right to make 
> and execute the laws."
> 
> As disturbing as the firing of columnists is, an incident with even 
> worse implications for U.S. democracy was the mainstream media's 
> almost total obedience to the President's request that videos of bin 
> Laden and other al Quaeda members not be televised. By all 
> traditional standards, these were highly newsworthy. Transcripts of 
> all of these were made available by the translation service of the 
> BBC. For example, on November 3, Al Jazeera broadcast a bin Laden 
> video. Bin Laden claimed that polls showed that the Islamic world 
> approved of the attacks by a wide majority; spoke of world-wide 
> demonstrations opposing U.S. action in Afghanistan; said that the 
> Islamic world has been under the "crusader yoke" for 83 years, since 
> World War I; and attacked the United Nations, which is widely 
> respected in Arab nations for its support of Palestinians, for having 
> tolerated or promoted violence against Moslems.
> 
> The bin Laden broadcast is newsworthy for several reasons. First, 
> consistent with his other utterances, he never denies involvement in 
> the U.S. attacks and goes to some length to justify them, supporting 
> the circumstantial evidence of his involvement. Secondly, even in 
> translation, his precise, rather Talmudic style of argument, with 
> constant reference to long-past historical events, gives us 
> significant insight into the personality of a once-faceless 
> adversary. Third, his reference to the U.N. introduced a potential 
> new target of Al Quaeda attacks.
> 
> I vaguely recall knowing who Osama bin Laden was before September 11: 
> a clever murderer, lurking somewhere, who was linked to the killing 
> of U.S. troops in Somalia, the African embassy bombings, and the 
> attack on the Cole. Today, I have an intense interest in him, as 
> someone who is trying to kill me personally, and that produces a 
> desire to find out everything I can.
> 
> As I never tire of telling you, I arrived at the World Trade Center 
> that morning just as the second plane hit. I saw the flames and 
> falling paper, and tiny fragments of glass rained on my head. People 
> were dying a short distance away from me; minutes later, as I was 
> running across the bridge, I saw someone jump from the south tower.
> 
> I have a "pay to play" theory of democracy. I made a partial payment 
> on September 11, and I'm willing to pay more: serve on the jury 
> trying an Al Quaeda member, even join the armed forces if they'd have 
> me. What I want in return is very simple: my seat at the table. And 
> that means the information that goes with it. There can be no 
> democracy without information; how do you decide what to do, what to 
> support or to oppose, without it?
> 
> The excuses given by the government for its request not to broadcast 
> or even print a transcript of the bin Laden video were laughable. 
> Most prominently, the government announced that the videos might 
> contain hidden messages, a technique called "steganography". Further 
> terrorist attacks might be launched as a result of the bin Laden 
> video being broadcast on CNN.
> 
> To which I say: Steganography, my ass. How stupid do President Bush, 
> Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld believe we are? There has not yet 
> been the slightest showing of any hidden messages in any bin Laden 
> video, despite obedient, silly news pieces on CNN interviewing 
> experts who could only say that it is imaginable that they could be 
> there. In these supposedly balanced pieces, where were the experts 
> saying how silly the idea was and that it was unsupported by any 
> evidence?
> 
> Multiple choice question: If you were a terrorist trying to send a 
> message to activate a U.S.-based cell, the most effective way to do 
> so would be a. a telephone call b. an anonymous email c. Placing a 
> classified ad in an obscure newspaper the cell was previously 
> instructed to monitor d. Hiding the message in a fifteen minute video 
> which you courier to Al Jazeera network and relying on them to 
> broadcast it in its entirety enough times for your U.S.-based cell to 
> see it.
> 
> Raise your hand if you think (d) is the best answer.
> 
> However, if bin Laden was strange enough to conceal messages in the 
> video or in the language he used, asking CNN and the networks not to 
> carry it was a completely ineffective way to block transmission of 
> the message, given the fact that it had already been broadcast by Al 
> Jazeera, translated and made available by the BBC, etc. Successful 
> interdiction of a hidden message still wouldn't prevent the follow up 
> phone call or email.
> 
> Note also that Rumsfeld et al. failed to run the football through the 
> goalposts. If they had taken the steganography chimera to its logical 
> conclusion, they could have asked American media to black out the war 
> entirely. Taliban mortars might be firing rhythmically in some 
> obscure Islamist Morse-like cadence. Afghan refugees in the 
> background of crowd scenes might be making hand gestures. John 
> Walker, the American Taliban member captured this week, might be 
> twitching in code.
> 
> Vague, unsupported claims about steganography don't trump my interest 
> in receiving accurate information about someone who is trying to kill 
> me.
> 
> Our government's other statement justifying censorship of the bin 
> Laden videos was more honest, though it got less play. Why give 
> airtime to Al Quaeda propaganda? This is one of those statements that 
> sounds credible, but is not. It pre-supposes two insulting things. 
> One is that there is a U.S. audience susceptible to bin Laden's 
> message (and Holmes would say that even if there were, they're 
> entitled to hear it). The other is that the rest of us don't need or 
> are not entitled to the information contained in the "propaganda". 
> Propaganda is information; it is an extremely valuable source of 
> knowledge about history, intention, and psychology. Mein Kampf is 
> freely available in the U.S., and is read much more by people 
> interested in understanding what happened than by those looking to 
> reaffirm their hatred and desire to commit genocide. Like 
> fundamentalists who condemn a book without having read it, the 
> government message is that there is information in the world so 
> volatile that we!
>   are better off being protected from it.
> 
> I wanted to be treated as an adult even before September 11, and with 
> my life in danger I feel even more strongly about it. Truth is one of 
> the cornerstones of democracy; our vote, our decision-making ability, 
> is impaired or destroyed when the government lies. The steganography 
> story was a silly lie. The truth--the government's desire that bin 
> Laden's ideas not be communicated, even though that means denying 
> important information to citizens of a democracy--shows how far we 
> have fallen from Justice Holmes' defiant and cheerful understanding 
> that we can trust ourselves.
> 
> I was astonished by the way that the broadcast media immediately 
> lined up behind the government without the mildest protest. 
> Twenty-four hour news organs, like CNN, are extremely hungry for 
> content, and had repeatedly played prior videos in their entirety, 
> with simultaneous translation. Once the government asked them to 
> stop, the newly-released video warranted only a brief mention without 
> even a clip (for fear of those hidden messages).
> 
> Why were the broadcast media so docile? In part, for the same reason 
> everyone else was. But broadcast media have a unique problem of their 
> own, which we ignore or forget in trusting them for information. They 
> are licensed and regulated by the FCC. Could the FCC legally pull a 
> license from a station which broadcast the bin Laden video in full? 
> No. Could the agency make its life quietly miserable? Absolutely. 
> Broadcast media executives never forget who holds the leash.
> 
> Ernst Renan said that nations hold together based not only on 
> collective memory but on collective forgetting as well. As a nation 
> we have completely forgotten that the regulation of broadcast media 
> began with a bloodbath about seventy years ago. The Federal Radio 
> Commission, the FCC's predecessor, targeted political programming and 
> drove it off the air to free the spectrum for commercial 
> broadcasters. Even seven decades later, the bland, mainstream, 
> nonchallenging nature of broadcast media is a product not only of 
> audience desires but of the shadow of government regulation. As the 
> ACLU's Morris Ernst said in the 1930's, "So long as the Department 
> can determine which individuals shall be endowed with larynxes, it 
> does not need additional power to determine what shall be said."
> 
> What about the print media? I was startled by the way they lined up 
> too. In the New York Times, which I count on for much (too much) of 
> my information about the world, the bin Laden video was no longer 
> front page news and no transcript was published. Again we seem to 
> have fallen a long way from the days of the Pentagon Papers and the 
> brave stand the Washington Post and the Times made against the Nixon 
> administration.
> 
> De Tocqueville provides the explanation. For most of the 1960's, the 
> press also lined up to support the Vietnam war. When the press first 
> began to examine the other side of the war--to ask questions about 
> whether the strategy made sense, the tactics were working, whether 
> civilians were being killed--they were moving in accordance with a 
> power shift that was already taking place in America. The press was 
> leading, but it was also following, like a middle manager or a 
> mid-level military officer. Significant constituencies in U.S. 
> business and politics had not waited for the Pentagon Papers to start 
> wondering if the war made any sense. In de Tocqueville's terms, 
> powerful people had already started jumping from the bandwagon. Which 
> is not to say that the Post and Times were not brave, did not behave 
> admirably, to stand up to the power (including the threat of illicit 
> action and even violence) of the Executive Branch.
> 
> After September 11, everyone was on the bandwagon. As three months 
> have passed without further Al Quaeda violence, and as we seem to be 
> winning the war, the print media are less frightened and there is a 
> slightly wider spread of opinion. Opposing voices have been heard on 
> the military tribunals, for example.
> 
> Speaking as a hawk, one who believes this is a just war, I want to 
> know where the antiwar voices were. CNN presented us with the usual 
> assortment of ex-generals analyzing air strikes, but where was Noam 
> Chomsky, saying that we shouldn't be bombing Afghanistan at all? I 
> did not see Chomsky in the Times op ed pages either, nor any other 
> guest editorial opposing the war. Certainly those voices are out 
> there; Chomsky spoke out forcefully in the small publications which 
> carry him. Why were antiwar views not represented in a mass media 
> which still likes to think of itself as the "fourth estate", affected 
> with a public interest?
> 
> Arriving at the truth in a democracy (as elsewhere) is a dialectical 
> process, where opposing views muster information in support and each 
> of us then makes our decision. Since September 11 the press has 
> consistently and miserably failed to present the other side of a 
> debate. It has not just failed to present the Al Quaeda view-- that 
> Americans deserve to be killed--though that has informational value 
> in evaluating personal risk and deciding what government responses to 
> support. The press has even failed to present the view that the 
> bombing of Afghanistan was a use of excessive force, or force applied 
> in the wrong place; or the view that law, rather than war, is the 
> answer.
> 
> My libertarian friends claim that the public responsibilities of the 
> press are a myth, that a newspaper is a business like any other, and 
> will only print what most of its audience wants to hear. But the 
> Times serves other minorities, such as those who read the bridge 
> column or the coverage of less popular sports; and diversity and even 
> adversity on the op ed pages was once thought to sell papers. No, I 
> think the true explanation of the obedient silence of the U.S. press 
> is not fear of its own readership, but is due to a disturbance 
> elsewhere in the force: a fear of offending a government and a 
> majority strongly aligned with one another, de Tocqueville's 
> "democratic majority with the right to make and execute the laws." 
> But it is precisely in times like these that we most desperately need 
> the information, as well as exposure to the variety of viewpoints 
> that convey it.
> 
> **************************************************************************
> Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
> Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
> on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week)
> Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722  ICQ: 106212065   Archived at 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/
> **************************************************************************




From declan at well.com  Wed Dec 12 07:43:51 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:43:51 -0500
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: <3C175B8A.8E03FFBF@ssz.com>; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:28:42AM -0600
References: <3C175B8A.8E03FFBF@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20011212104351.B21310@cluebot.com>


Choate misunderstands journalism. When writing about an appeals court 
decision, it's generally not appropriate to cite the ravings of Net.wackos
in an obscure newsgroup or mailing list a decade ago. Choate shows
again he's not merely a Net.wacko; he's a Net.loon.

Heck, I didn't even cite a Harvard Law Review article specifically
on this case -- wasn't necessary. 

It may be that Choate has said spam is trespass. But I'm not sure why
anyone could care.

-Declan


On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:28:42AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Who again has been saying for 10+ years that this sort of behaviour (incl.
> Open Relay scanning, which isn't covered here) is trespass? Check the
> archives folks...will Declan give predictive credit where credit is due?
> Probably not, that takes being honest...
> 
> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49031,00.html
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
>  --
>     ____________________________________________________________________
> 
>              Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
> 
>                                              Bumper Sticker
> 
>        The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
>        Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
>        www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
>                            -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------




From declan at well.com  Wed Dec 12 07:44:45 2001
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:44:45 -0500
Subject: : Re: AP Al Qaeda
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:31:21AM -0600
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011213012017.00a17310@pop.useoz.com> 
Message-ID: <20011212104445.C21310@cluebot.com>


Something on which Jim Choate and I can agree. :) --Declan

On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:31:21AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
> Get your damn quoting right, Declan didn't right the '> >' delimited text
> as you indicate.
> 




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Dec 12 10:17:31 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:17:31 -0700
Subject: cryptographic fantasy (ca. "Stego, my ass" by WF Buckley)
Message-ID: <3C179F3B.8DC3418@lsil.com>


> The notion that Osama would use a filmed interview to
> send out recondite commands is cryptographic fantasy.
>
> William F. Buckley Jr.
> OSAMA THE INVINCIBLE
>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ucwb/20011211/cm/osama_the_invincible_1.html

>
OK piece. I usually write off Buckley as a pompous ass. I wish we would
hear more skepticism about GWB and Ashcroft and their domestic
treasonous idiocy.

As far as his assertion about the popularity of UBL in the Philippines :
sounds like a stretcher to me - Muslims are only strong in the extreme
south e.g. Mindanao. Most of the population is pretty strict Catholic.
There may be some resentment of the US but I think overall there is a
hunger for all things US : education, media, goods, travel and trade.

The older folks definitely still remember the Japanese.

Mike





From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 16:46:12 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:46:12 +1100
Subject: Tim May; Oxymoron
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212114303.00a4a440@pop.useoz.com>


 >>the very
idea of a "libertarian socialist" is an oxymoron.
It doesn't compute.
Sure, we are "libertarian socialists" in a sense within our families or
circles of friends, in a manner of speaking, but we are not coerced by
external agents to be nice, or socialist, to our family and friends.
 >>Therein lies the reason why "libertarian socialist" is such an oxymoron."
Tim.
"but we are not coerced by
external agents to be nice, or socialist, to our family and friends."

What if the coercing external agent were operation soft drill? It cant be 
the anarchist
police can it? Under libertarian socialism (anarchism)the only external 
coercive agents
possible would be distributed,available to all and anonymous.External 
coercive agents
are a distinguishing feature of authoritarian socialism and corporate 
capitalism.Anarchy
(libertarian socialism)is the best way forward to minimize external 
coercion (violence)
Operation soft drill while it allows for inevitable violence,it should keep 
it to an absolute
minimum once it takes off.A computer in every village is as important as a 
well.This AP idea
is the justice system for the whole wired world. Crypto-anarchy needs 
justice or it will fail.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Dec 12 12:00:10 2001
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:00:10 -0800
Subject: [Remops] And when he returns in February? (fwd)
Message-ID: <7ba270f960d343ff110f77b6c9b5ea50@melontraffickers.com>


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Eugene Leitl wrote:

> More drama unfolds.
>
> -- Eugen* Leitl leitl
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
> 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

[...]

Why are you propagating this nonsense? You're turning into the new Choate,
the new Hettinga, the new troll zoo-keeper. People interested in remailers
are already on those lists, and I guarantee you that they aren't
interested in that drama. It isn't anything new. If you've been around
more than a few weeks on alt.security.anon-server, you know about it. The
only "unfolding" is that it has finally bleed over onto the remops list --
and now, thanks to you, the cypherpunks list.

Ninny.




From elneil at msn.com  Wed Dec 12 11:14:15 2001
From: elneil at msn.com (L. Neil Smith)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:14:15 -0700
Subject: Area 51 Guards On Strike
Message-ID: 

But who's going to save the Earth from the scum of the universe?

  

A group of 70 security guards known as the "camo dudes" walked off 
their jobs Monday in Las Vegas and at the covert military 
installation known as Area 51, a place they said they can't talk 
about.

"Use your imagination," union President Vernell Hall said when asked 
where he worked as he and more than a dozen other striking security 
officers displayed "On Strike" signs on Haven Street near McCarran 
International Airport.

[...]

Hall said the issues include lack of adequate wages and benefits.

"There's been too much overtime since Sept. 11. Overtime on top of 
overtime," Hall said.

[...]

==========================
L. Neil Smith's latest novel _The
American Zone_ is now available at
bookstores on and off the Internet.


**************************************************************************
Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues
Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA
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**************************************************************************




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec 12 03:30:37 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:30:37 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:37:52 -0500
From: David Shaw 
To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
Cc: Seth David Schoen 
Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange

On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:42:26PM -0800, Seth David Schoen wrote:

> > So Phil's robot CA idea actually sounds more practical to me than
> > Brad's idea; in particular, it has better compatibility with regular
> > PGP encryption -- and it seems that it may be more robust in some
> > ways.  The robot CA is intuitive and fairly secure if you don't expect
> > active MITM attacks.
>
> The Board of Directors of EFF met today in San Francisco, and I made a
> presentation about this, in the presence of Brad Templeton and others.
> One of the conclusions was that EFF's role in implementing something
> like this is still not defined clearly enough, and we don't know what
> we could most usefully do.
>
> For example, some people like the idea of standardizing protocols
> through the IETF; others prefer a completely independent development
> of a spec (possibly with advance commitments or at least expressions
> of interest from vendors), and then submission to standards bodies
> after the technical work is more of a fait accompli.  There is some
> disagreement about who exactly should write which code, for what
> platform, and what effect it would have for different people (e.g.
> famous cryptographers, civil liberties organizations, well-known
> scientists or network engineers) to endorse various approaches in
> various places.
>
> We want to figure out more about what EFF can best do to make this
> happen.  Brad Templeton is planning to write to Phil Zimmermann, and I
> plan to write to Phil Karn and some other people.

After the Zimmermann article appeared, I emailed him and we spoke on
the phone for a few hours about the possibilities here.  He's an
interesting guy.  We discussed some concerns I had with the robot CA
concept as without client support, or a special robot keyserver along
with (or part of) the robot CA, there are some problems.  All in all,
I like his ideas for the robot CA (he had some ideas to extend this to
a robot "designated revoker" as well as a few other useful things).

> Brad was concerned that the robot CA is a single point of failure and
> an easy target for attacks (DOS, subpoena, physical intrusions); it
> _does_ hold some secret and trusted information (its own private
> signing key) and also has a uniquely valuable key which can be
> compromised -- an event which would tend to undermine the entire
> scheme.  He added that both schemes are equally secure against passive
> wiretapping, and the scheme he outlined can survive even if the
> organizations which originally supported it go away.

One possible way to address some of Brad's concerns with Phil
Zimmermann's scheme is to create a meta-key, stored offline, with some
rigidly followed procedure for its use (this should be analogous to a
non-robot CA master key handling).  Use this key to sign a number of
additional keys[1] for each robot CA.  This gives you a few
improvements - one, you have more than one robot CA, all equally
valid, so there is no longer a single point of failure.  A reasonable
optimization here would be for each robot to look for a signature from
a different robot and refuse to sign.  In the case of robot compromise
(legal or illegal), the robot's key can be revoked.  This may hurt the
people who had their keys signed by that particular robot, but does
not affect the rest.  This revision also allows the scheme to survive
if some of the robots go away - as long as the keeper of the master
key does not go away.

For me, the piece of the "get everyone using encryption" project that
Brad really hit on the head is the need for absolutely zero UI.

To do this well in the client, we're really going to need some amount
of vendor buy-in.  Without zero (or pretty darn close to zero) UI, we
can poke around with simplifying key management for years without
accomplishing much because of the "If I have to do anything to use it,
then I won't use it" mindset.  I don't really like doing the
encryption in the MTA as that puts the responsibility on a machine in
the ISP.  This machine is likely to be a far richer prize to an
attacker than a home box, as well as being far more snoopable on via
legal or illegal means.

> I want to bifurcate the issue and ask everyone here:
>
> (1) What's the best design for an "informal key exchange" scheme in
> which active MITM attacks may be permitted, but privacy against
> passive wiretapping (as well as trivial impersonation attacks) is
> maintained?  How can this be implemented with the smaller amount of
> user interface, while maintaining the largest amount of compatibility
> in both directions with existing e-mail privacy systems for
> sophisticated users?

The easiest thing to do would be a email header that contains key
information.  Loads of people do this already ("X-My-PGP-Key: ..." and
similar).  If we could standardize a format, then smart clients could
use it to automatically fetch the key.  I'd suggest some sort of URL,
for maximum flexibility.  For bandwidth and messiness reasons, I don't
really like the S/MIME feature of sending the key around all the time.

Using a new email header for this has the nice feature of not breaking
any of the current email infrastructure - any non-capable clients will
just ignore it.

> (2) What's the best way to get such a system designed and deployed to
> the general public?  How can an organization like EFF best help
> accomplish this?  Whose help do we need?

Microsoft (like it or not, they make one of the most widely used MUAs
on the planet).  AOL/Netscape.  And the developers of as many mailers
we can get to listen.  If this only happens in the open-source world,
then we're not really solving the problem.

Way back when, Netscape did a cute thing to push https: it made a big
deal of the security icons on the browser, and made sure that you knew
you did not have an encrypted connection when you submitted a form.
I'd love to see mailers scold the user this way if they tried to send
an unencrypted email.

I favor using OpenPGP as the underlying protocol for all of this as
there is wide understanding of OpenPGP and lots of code available
under various licenses, including the GPL.  Using OpenPGP also allows
"power users" to use the full OpenPGP trust model if they choose to
without affecting the people using the simplified model.

I am very interested in working on these problems with anyone else who
would like to join me.

David

[1] This could also be OpenPGP-style signing subkeys, but for a
    handful of reasons (the keyservers not handling keys like that
    very well for starters) it may better to use other keys.

-- 
   David Shaw  |  dshaw at jabberwocky.com  |  WWW http://www.jabberwocky.com/
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
   "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX.
      We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 17:49:04 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:49:04 +1100
Subject: Behold a pale horsepersyn
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212122003.00a0c280@pop.useoz.com>


Not only will operation soft drill water your plants and walk your dogs it 
now kills all known horsemen of the infopocalypse.
While it will be portrayed as the grim reaper,great satan and everything 
else under a rock,a way must be found to neutralize the 'freak out the 
soccer moms' campaigns that could be coming our way soon.You know the ones...
Crypto pedophiles! crypto terrorists! crypto narcotraffickers! and crypto 
money launderers for them all.
Why not turn crypto assassins loose on the above?
It takes a thief to catch a thief and the authorities are losing all these 
battles.(when they're battling and not joining in)
So,how to turn a negative horseman,crypto assassins,into the ultimate 
killer app? Simple,stop sneaking around and go
"open source" Its a boon.Not doom.A blessing,not the end of the world as we 
know it.If youse can sell yourselves on the
comedy that your 'punks' and 'anarchists' you have great futures in 
advertising.Whats in it for moi? ecash,new markets,fame,70 virgins,hells 
bells,whateveryoufugginwant.Cheney,the evil one,is in the bunker now 
planning nuclear war with china as the ultimate last resort so we havent 
got all day.Give us your answer here!
The media can sniff out the candidates quite 
nicely,condit,oj,USAma,etc.Once we break the ice and the network affect 
kicks in it'll be background before you know it.Operation soft drill,you 
know it makes sense.




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec 12 04:36:14 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:36:14 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [Remops] And when he returns in February? (fwd)
Message-ID: 



More drama unfolds.

-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:47:31 -0500
From: Secure Beer 
Reply-To: remops at lexx.shinn.net
To: remailer-operators at anon.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: [Remops] And when he returns in February?

Last night I had my life threatened.

The death threat was posted here and on the remops list.
The message in question is 
 from the APA-S  thread
Re: A comparison of Frog-Admin, the Script-Kiddie, Anonymous
Trolls and other plagues of the privacy community.

The author of the death threat posted anonymously and used
the nick Sade. But the writing style and especially the last
few lines reveal that it was Frog-Admin who threatened my life.

"Thank you, Champerty, for letting me experiencing the same
kind of double ecstasy: first when I was crucifiing your ass
and your friends', and now when you make me remember those
delicious moments."

That is part2 of a 2-part threat. He chooses to write part1
in his mother tongue, perhaps not knowing that I am bilingual.
In French, he quotes from Marquis de Sade describing how
Saint-Fond anally rapes Juliette and, while raping her,
orders her head sliced off so that the clenching of her
muscles at the moment of her decapitation might intensify
his sexual pleasure.

Champerty is a gender-neutral pseudonym. And although I am
male I can't help wondering whether Frog-Admin thought he
was threatening a woman when he decided to include that
description of the sexual torture and murder of an 18 year
old woman.

Male or female. It's a death threat. Im my country it's
criminal. It's one of the worse things he's done. And, as
we are beginning to realize, he has done a lot of sleazy,
under-handed things.

Where did this rage come from, you might ask? In addition
to an ego already on steroids, Frog-Admin was exposéd
recently by an anonymous poster as being the individual
responsible for much of the floods and trolling in APA-S
over the past two years. Frog-Admin assumed that this
anonymous poster must have been his arch rival from
1998-2000: Champerty. This is a knee-jerk reaction for him.
You see, he can't get his head around the idea that there
is more than one person who thinks he is wrong.

Embarrassed and humiliated by the exposé he has announced
that he will be closing down his remailer tomorrow (Wed
Dec 12 2001) .

He has also had a bit of a temper tantrum as the deluge of
anti-Champerty anti-Boschloo and pro-Frog messages
demonstrates. As he explains himself in a recent message
"You didn't expect me to remain silent did you?"

He has promised to be back from his vacation in February
2002 and intends to put his remailer back online.

What do remailer users think about Frog-Admin now? Is this
the type of remailer operator that you want in your
remailer network?

And operators? I ask you to please, for once, take a public
stand for or against whether Frog-Admin will be welcomed
back in February after the shit he has pulled over the
years and especially in recent days.

Death threats cannot be dismissed as merely "bad form".
Flooding APA-S, discrediting and silencing critics,
attacking ISPs, scapegoating innocents like TB and Orange
Admin. These things should not be tolerated simply because
they don't directly affect YOUR individual remailer.

Farout Admin has declared himself supportive of Frog
Admin and hopes he returns in February.

What about the rest of the operators and stats maintainers?
'Time to take a stand.

Secure Beer
(formerly Champerty)
almostt AT beer DOT com


Beer Mail, brought to you by your friends at beer.com.

_______________________________________________
Remops mailing list
Remops at lexx.shinn.net
http://lexx.shinn.net/mailman/listinfo/remops




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec 12 04:36:55 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:36:55 +0100 (MET)
Subject: IP: Federal agents raid warez groups (fwd)
Message-ID: 




-- Eugen* Leitl leitl
______________________________________________________________
ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org
57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:58:47 -0500
From: David Farber 
Reply-To: farber at cis.upenn.edu
To: ip-sub-1 at majordomo.pobox.com
Subject: IP: Federal agents raid warez groups


>From: "Bill Sodeman" 
>To: 
>
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/11/technology/11CND-PIRACY.html?pagewante
>d=print
>
>December 11, 2001
>In 27 Cities, U.S. Carries Out Raids in Software Piracy Case
>By DAVID STOUT
>
>WASHINGTON, Dec. 11 - Federal agents carried out dozens of raids today
>against a far-flung network suspected of pirating billions of dollars
>worth of computer software - ranging from operating systems to the
>latest music videos and movies - over the Internet.
>
>Agents seized computers and hard drives in at least 27 cities in 21
>states in raids on businesses, university computer centers, Internet
>service providers and many residences. Foreign law enforcement people
>staged about 20 similar raids in Australia, Britain, Finland and Norway.
>
>Treasury and Commerce department officials said more raids will be
>conducted in the weeks ahead. No arrests were made in the United States,
>partly because today's operations were aimed at gathering evidence. Some
>of the people implicated, aware that they could face charges of
>conspiracy or theft of intellectual property, are already cooperating
>with the authorities, department officials said.
>
>The operation that culminated in today's raids, after a 15-month
>inquiry, is part of "the largest and most extensive investigation of its
>kind," Customs Commissioner Robert C. Bonner said.
>
>
>
>Officials said offenders could face up to three years in prison, upon
>conviction, and depending on their willingness to cooperate. By midday,
>the authorities said, more than 60 people in the United States had been
>identified as being involved in the pirating operation. Several suspects
>have already been charged overseas.
>
>The target of the raids was the "Warez" group, a loosely affiliated
>network of software-piracy gangs that duplicate and reproduce
>copyrighted software over the Internet. Of special interest today was a
>Warez unit known as "DrinkOrDie," probably the oldest and best known in
>the Warez network, officials said, adding that DrinkOrDie members take
>special pride in having cracked and pirated the Windows 95 operating
>system three days before its release to the public.
>
>Members of Warez includes corporate executives, computer-network
>administrators and students at major universities, government workers
>and employees of technology and computer firms, the Customs Service said
>today. The agency said the piracy ring is aided by insiders in stealing
>the software and that the ring relies on elaborate computer-security
>devices to minimize risk of detection.
>
>Raids were carried out today at the University of California at Los
>Angeles, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Purdue University,
>Duke University and the University of Oregon, officials said. They said
>the universities themselves, like the various companies raided today,
>were not involved in the wrongdoing by their employees and were
>cooperating in the inquiry.
>
>Cities where raids were staged included New York, Washington, Houston,
>Indianapolis, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Atlanta and
>Chicago, the government said.
>
>==========================
>
>Bill Sodeman
>bill at sodeman.com / http://bill.sodeman.com
>
>1-512-845-0119

For archives see:
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Wed Dec 12 12:50:57 2001
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:50:57 -0700
Subject: phantoms and rhetoric ( was : Re: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and Self-Censorship )
Message-ID: <3C17C331.9943F4D0@lsil.com>


Nomen Nescio  wrote :
>Declan McCullagh writes:
>> I always enjoy Jonathan's essays, and this one is no exception. He
>> properly points out the disturbing analogy that Attorney General
>> Ashcroft seems to make (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02900.html)
>> between criticism and treason.
>
>What Ashcroft actually said, from the URL above, was:
>
>> We need honest, reasoned debate; not fearmongering. To those who
>> pit Americans against immigrants, and citizens against non-citizens;
>> to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty;

>> my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists - for they erode

>> our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to
>> America's enemies, and pause to America's friends. They encourage
>> people of good will to remain silent in the face of evil.
>
>The simple fact is that Ashcroft spoke the truth.  Such criticisms
>do erode national unity and diminish resolve.  In fact, most critics
>would fully agree with these goals.  Unity and resolve on a national
>level scare civil libertarians.  A unified nation is a rash nation.
>Democracies should be thoughtful, their actions carefully considered
>and taken only after due deliberation.  Having a thousand voices urging

>different courses is far safer than a single voice which all obey.
>
>Some claim that behind the truth of Ashcroft's words is a veiled
> threat.
>Aiding national enemies is indeed one of the definitions of treason.
>Yet in the larger sense such a reading is plainly absurd.  No Attorney
>General would ever attempt to make the case that criticising government

>policy is treasonous and should be forbidden.  Hard as it may be for
>the present audience, blinded by their ideology, to see the real world
>for what it is, any such attempt would be political suicide.
>
>Given this reality, there is clearly no real threat in Ashcroft's
>statement.  Instead the critics are intentionally misreading him in
>order to accomplish exactly those goals he mentions: to sow disunity
>and weaken resolve.  It is nothing more than a rhetorical trick.
>
>Let us hold to the truth.  Ashcroft is right in his characterization of

>his critics' goals, and his critics are right to try to achieve those
>goals.  It is misguided to attack Ashcroft by making the false claim
>that he views criticism as treason.  Instead, critics should attack his

>position that national unity and resolve must be preserved.  This would

>be a substantive debate which would enlighten the American public and
>raise awareness of important issues.  Unfortunately the critics have
>descended into politically motivated mud-slinging and have deprived
>Americans of a valuable opportunity.
>
The recent advances in law enforcement made by a frightened ( for their
asses and their careers ) Congress are not phantoms of lost liberty :
substantial changes have been made. Ashcroft expresses his opinion that
questioning the civil liberties implications of those policy changes is
an attempt to "erode our national unity and diminish our resolve" as if
it is a truth. He mischaracterizes the goals of his critics so that he
can associate them with an extremely unpopular position. The technique
being employed by John Ashcroft is to fallaciously polarize the
discussion as one of Patriotism vs. Treason, Good vs. Evil with the
intent of suppressing the speech of anyone who might be an impediment to

his agenda. Ashcroft's approach smacks of the techniques used by the
late and not-at-all-great may he rest screaming forever in flames
Senator Joseph McCarthy. That is Ashcroft's rhetorical trick.

Nomen's trick is to mischaracterize what people object to in what
Ashcroft has said. I don't for a minute think that there is, today at
least, even a veiled threat that those who openly criticize Bush and
Ashcroft are likely to be accused of treason. Nomen has set up an easily

torched strawman which he uses to say see, Ashcroft's critics are
clearly wrong, so they're probably wrong about the administration.

I'm not buying Ashcroft's tricks or Nomen's. I'll stick with the simple
interpretation of the motivations and goals of those who question the
actions of the Bush administration : some people see those actions of
the Bush administration and John Ashcroft as Constitutionally
questionable and their goal is to debate the issues and protect, in so
far as it is possible given the state of the populace, everyone's
liberties from enemies both foreign and domestic. Unity and resolve
don't enter into it.

Sometimes I think that people feel that because shameful or horrific
events in our history happened so very long ago and we seem to have
survived them that we must have some type of increasing immunity
conferred upon us by the passing of time. I'm afraid that quite the
opposite is true, that our immunity diminishes with time leaving us open

to reinfection by the ideological descendents of the perpetrators of
earlier outrages.

Can an Attorney General be censured? Drawn and quartered?

Mike

http://www.webcorp.com/mccarthy/mccarthypage.htm





From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 19:17:07 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:17:07 +1100
Subject: The fucking essay
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212133250.00a0fab0@pop.useoz.com>


"...the fucking essay. It's flawed in a variety of ways. It's understanding 
of human psychology (which it purports to >manipulate in realistic ways - 
not) is so flawed as to make it very tedious.

Speaking of tedious,Im on record with total opposition to freud being used 
for anything other than birdcage liner.I still havent read that part of AP 
with any degree of attention.If thats what your referring to re.human 
psychology then I heartily agree.Freud is extremely tedious.Where jim 
appeals to
the angels of our better nature is probably also flawed as a realistic 
appeal to human psychology.(last page 10)
Sandys on record with at least one flaw on the confirmation of prediction 
end.I wish the police would take note and return my latitude.Id like to 
talk to jim about updating and streamlining the essay but its a bit 
tricky.The powers that be feel threatened by jims ideas.I doubt very much 
they would find anything threatening at your wing nut web site.

 >>Its about making very credible threats to limit violence.Paradoxical but 
effective.

 > Not paradoxical, hypocritical. And no, it doesn't limit anything (unless 
there are is so much money being made killing wives, husbands, and 
competitors there are no more hit men left).

How is operation soft drill hypocritical? Jim might argue with that too but 
cant,of course.10 years for a flawed,tedious essay.Mmm.
It does'nt limit anything that is not already limited.Like knowing where 
your target is,or even who they are.Numbskull nomen knows that.The limits 
come from the 'thermostat' effect,mentioned in the essay.Its a self 
limiting state of affairs that does'nt even require crypto.I think a 
misconception comes in when hitmen get a mention.A 'hitman' could be a 
child or an elderly butler.Almost anyone is capable of killing.Sure pros 
would be attracted,make a pile,spend it,become targets and so on.Self 
limiting see? Theres a mass levelling of wealth and power as no sane person 
wants to be anything but anonymous.There will be those who think they're so 
lovable they wont attract a juicy pool and we'll always have 
celebrities,they just wont be around so long,maybe.

 >It simply provides a mechanism for the 1st party to >anonymously hire the 
3rd party to kill >>the 2nd party.

Well dont we have that now,(the internet) A lot of what Im talking about is 
there in front of your face.The trains left the station.Assasination 
politics is on the news in occupied palestine and 'ghan and its got doctors 
all over your scumbag ratshit,craphole rogue error state of amerdikkka 
wearing bulletproof vests.With OSD even anonymity isnt required,simply 
enough sensible people to see the benefits of distributed justice by 
consensus (not mob rule at all) and take firm committed civil disobedient 
direct action.A nuremburg website for all the little eichmanns that want to 
slice away our inalienable human and civil rights like salami. FUCK 
THAT,FUCK THEM and FUCK YOU,you loopy spamming spacecase.




From always_ready2 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 12 14:32:02 2001
From: always_ready2 at hotmail.com (ECA)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:32:02
Subject: Attention Homeowners: Don't Refinance Yet !!!
Message-ID: <200112121934.NAA18893@einstein.ssz.com>

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From jmcgone at cfl.rr.com  Wed Dec 12 11:39:21 2001
From: jmcgone at cfl.rr.com (Jim McGone)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:39:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Last Minute Holiday Shopping
Message-ID: <200112121939.fBCJdKO10171@smtp-server1.tampabay.rr.com>



                                                                        e Seine Trawler
                                                            e-Mail Marketing / Translation
                               P.O Box 2773, New Smyrna Beach FL 32170-2773  - fish at ucnsb.net


RE: Last minute Holiday Shopping


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e-Seine Trawler
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Last Minute Holiday Special:   2,306 CPA's  or  2,019 Travel Agents - $60.   (pulled 12/09/




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 15:13:53 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:13:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

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From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 15:27:06 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:27:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <200112122146.QAA06128@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> I don't know, how about traffic analysis?

Yes, but see my previous post.

> Exploiting (publicly) undisclosed holes in the remailer software?

Same problem as traffic analysis if you are talking about compromising the
remailer. Doesn't work after the fact. (Plus, the risk of detection is
certainly non-zero.)

If you're talking about exploiting flaws in the remailer message
encryption or in the mix-net protocol, that would work, but also would
rely upon having remailer traffic be intercepted and collected for later
analysis.

> Good old-fashioned deception isn't exactly rocket science, either. How about
> suckering people into routing traffic through an ever-increasing number of
> corrupt nodes, either by: 1) running them covertly 2) buying off "trusted

Stats manipulation has been discussed before. (LEAs run remailers, and
then ensure that their remailers are at the top of the stats pages, either
by falsifying stats or causing legitimate remailers to sink lower on the
stats then LEA remailers.)

Another half-decent attack if planned in advance.

> pillars of the crypto community" and trading on their reputation
> capital? A sobering thought.

I'm not skeptical as to how effective that would be. Look at all the times
that Phil Zimmermann has been accused of being in bed with the Government.
I'm not sure there are any "trusted pillars of the crypto community".

> Or how about this one: enticing people interested in developing
> cryptography into an closed system based in Canada (international, so
> using full-blown Echelon technology against it isn't a problem)

Except for the pesky fact that the NSA can't spy on US citizens, even if
they're in Canada. (Exceptions can be made, but the hoops become higher
and more numerous than a simple FBI investigation.)

> offering "secure" messaging, file storage, sharing and transmission
> etc. while promising them the moon about being a no-compromise
> information-haven phuck-the-state all-your-eggs-in-one -basket crypto
> system?
>
> Oh wait, it's called CryptoHeaven. Nevermind.

Yes, well. My thoughts on CryptoHeaven are already on the record on this
list.

> Not that I'm claiming the first thing about them--it's just that if I were
> trying to come up with a way to gather information on people interested in
> developing privacy and cryptography technology, setting up a compromised
> CryptoHeaven-like system on behalf of the United States Government would be
> IDEAL. Or at the very least,inserting some bad actors into the system to root
> up the vulnerabilities couldn't hurt. Not to mention cultivating "trusted
> insider" informants.

Smells like entrapment, though.


-MW-




From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net  Wed Dec 12 15:41:33 2001
From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:41:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Jewish Terror Attack on US Foiled
Message-ID: <200112122341.fBCNfXV10747@artifact.psychedelic.net>


Gosh - doesn't anyone like the United States anymore?  Give the fuckers
$3 billion a year in aid, and they elect a war criminal as their Prime
Minister and pull shit like this.

-----

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The chairman of the militant Jewish Defense League and
a follower have been arrested on suspicion of plotting to blow up a Los
Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman, federal
authorities said today. Irv Rubin, 56, and a member of the group, Earl
Krugel, 59, both of Los Angeles, were arrested last night after the last
component of the bomb -- explosive powder -- was delivered to Krugel's
home, U.S. Attorney John S. Gordon said. Authorities said the two planned
to bomb the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City and the office of freshman
Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:13:45 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:13:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: <3C176BF8.CE587BBE@mozcom.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, F. Marc de Piolenc wrote:

> Gee - don't you think that if you're going to use hifalutin terms like
> 
> "ad hominem" and "ad nauseam," you ought to learn how they're spelled?
> 
> Not knowing how they are spelled sorta makes people think you might not
> know what they mean...

If your only bitch is spelling then the argument must be pretty sound.

(Oh yeah, bitching about the spelling instead of the argument is an ad
hominim as well)


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:22:04 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:22:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and  Self-Censorship in Wartime
In-Reply-To: <20011212103938.A21310@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> * Is it appropriate to use the powerful word "censorship" to describe
> what happened when the National Review dropped Ann Coulter?

No, she was using THEIR property and services.

> Review has an implicit contract with their writers that says something
> like
> our-publication-has-a-distinct-point-of-view-and-we-don't-want-to-run-
> stuff-far-outside-of-it. In the absence of evidence to the contrary,
> it's reasonable to assume that she understood this implicit agreement
> when she signed up.

I hope you mean explicit, otherwise you ain't got a leg to stand on -
zero 'meeting of minds'.

> this dispute weakens the term for when it's really needed -- to
> describe government action that puts people in prison cells.

Censorship is not strictly limited to government...

Censor -

Official who examines anything to be read, heard, or viewed, in order to
suppress some objectionable feature on moral, political, or military
grounds.

Note it does NOT require government membership to be an official.

> * Of course it's disturbing when government officials tell Americans
> to self-censor. 

Everybody self-sensors, all day, every day. Nothing wrong with it since
the individual is the ONLY agent with the authority to decide
applicability or acceptability.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:24:18 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:24:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Axed Intel Man Loses E-Mail Case
In-Reply-To: <20011212104351.B21310@cluebot.com>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Choate misunderstands journalism. 

Not at all, journalism is the act of interacting with others about their
actions and beliefs in the hope that you can spin doctor the reality into
something people will find enteraining and hence pay money for.

It's a great job for those who can't teach.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 16:29:08 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:29:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Remailers, N-Grams, and Google
In-Reply-To: <200112102206.RAA06535@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> What are N-Grams?
>
> N-Gram Analysis is a a method patented by the NSA to compare the
> semantic of two texts or audio or video data files. The algorithm is
> pretty simple, all you have to do, is take a sliding window of length
> N and move it over the text, and remember, how often which
> text-fragment of length N occured in the text. This implementation of
> the N-Gram Method is a pretty simple ANSI-C-Program, I wrote to
> distract me from my end-of-semester exams. It would be nice, if you
> send me patches, comments or so to rhoehndo at imn.htwk-leipzig.de. I
> will do some more to this code as soon as I finished my exams.

Here's a thought.

Given a comprehensive collection of public Internet communication,
including Usenet, mailing list traffic, weblog entries, etc, and an
advanced semantic analysis algorithm, it should be fairly trival to take
the n-gram (or other semantic signature) of a remailed message, and search
a database of these signatures for possible matches.

Google's got the raw material, and surely the NSA does as well. (If the
FBI hadn't been collecting this information all along, would they even
need to ask a court to get the NSA to share it with them? I'm talking
about purely public info -- nothing that Google wouldn't have.)

A program could be written to run over time, generating n-grams which
would then be stored in the database alongside the original text. The
program should be smart enough to ignore mail headers, footers, etc., but
none of this would be difficult given a good semantic analysis algo.
(N-grams appear to be less effective on small documents, though if two
documents were known to be authored by the same person, they should be
able to be treated as one.) When an anonymous text's n-gram would be
entered into the search engine, the database would return all documents
with similar n-grams. This should reveal the likely identity of the author
in a large number of cases. *Then* you could Magic Lantern him or
whatever.

What's the current state of public research in this area? Does anything
exist that would be useful for practical application at this point? (I'm
not sure how reliable n-grams would be on this kind of scale, and I
haven't been able to find much via Google that really answers that.)

I don't think I am saying anything new here. I'm bringing this because it
seems like the solution to defeating remailers that involves the least
legal hassle, can be applied retroactively, does not involve an
unreasonable amount of computing power or deployed equipment, and has
a decent chance of success for a good number of messages. (It won't work
if the LEA doesn't have the plain text message that was sent through the
remailer, or if the message was simply a binary file, news report, or
something else not of the sender's own words, but it would work on
messages exchanged discussing plots, drug deals, threats, kiddie-porn
solicitation, naughty fantasies on alt.personals.bondage, etc.

And then there's the added bonus of still working, even if the things Tim
says are needed exist (much greater number of remailers, more traffic,
etc.) and working on *any* form of anonymous communication, including
missives deposited in postal drop boxes (assuming tomorrow's unibombers
post to Usenet.)

There could also be a commercial or individual demand for such a system.
Suppose I wanted to read everything that Eric Hughes has written and
published publicly online over the past 20 years. How would I go about
such a search? Searching by name or email address will miss quite a lot.
If Google had n-gram searching, and a "submit your text sample for
n-gramification" cgi, I'd have more luck. Anyone at Google want to take me
up on this?

I'm sure there's other more practical uses that I'm missing as well.


-Arnold




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:36:44 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:36:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <200112122146.QAA06128@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> Underestimating your adversary never did anyone a bit of good.

Sure it does, it helps the ones who are underestimated.


 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From mattd at useoz.com  Tue Dec 11 21:36:44 2001
From: mattd at useoz.com (mattd)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:36:44 +1100
Subject: : 100 million responsibilities (Re: AP Al quim) 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011212162509.00a49810@pop.useoz.com>


At 06:27 AM 12/12/01 +1100, mattd wrote: >.>..regarding Assassination 
Politics: > > Just keep in mind that AP is a >joke among knowledgeable > > 
technologists for >its unworkability, but a >wonderful joke > > on those 
who believe it's anything more than a taunt. > >Total bullshit again. Yes, 
but the reason it's bullshit is that shooting >messengers does no good. It 
leaves intact the originators of the message, >all hundred- million of 
them. Tomorrow, the hundred million will be >stumbling over each other 
trying to empower new messengers to replace those >fallen. Bingo. This is 
why the WTC takedown was such excellent feedback.

The above is baba rum rasins entire post.WTF my names on top for Im fucked 
if I know.Its all crap.Feedback for shitheels.
Im not getting any feedback on operation soft drill so Ill pack it in next 
year and let nature take its course.Leave my name out of it.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Wed Dec 12 13:46:11 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:46:11 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <200112122146.QAA06128@mail.lokmail.net>

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From reinhold at world.std.com  Wed Dec 12 13:47:56 2001
From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:47:56 -0500
Subject: FreeSWAN & US export controls
In-Reply-To: <0GO6007W7Z3EYY@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net>
References: 
  
  <0GO6007W7Z3EYY@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net>
Message-ID: 


You make a good argument for dropping the non_U.S. only restriction. 
The risk may be worth the benefits of kernel integration.  That could 
result in wider corporate use of IPSec to fight real security threats 
and make it much more difficult, politically, to suppress.

My point was just that one cannot rely on the U.S. courts striking 
down any future crypto regulations. They should and I hope they 
would, but it not a sure thing. The most recent ruling is not 
favorable. I also wouldn't underestimate the U.S. government's 
ability to stifle crypto development if they choose to do so and get 
a green light from the courts.  Note today's Warez crackdown.

Maybe there is some compromise possible where a core crypto library 
is kept free of U.S. contributions?

Arnold Reinhold


At 10:27 AM -0800 12/11/01, Dima Holodovich wrote:
>On Tuesday 11 December 2001 06:29 am, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote:
>>
>> Having a body of open source crypto software that is not entangled by
>> any U.S. input is not a foolish idea.
>
>Not when the body of software is critical for Linux and the
>widespread use of IPSec.  If you want widespread adoption
>of IPSec in Linux, it needs to be in Linus' kernel.  In order
>for this to happen, it is necessary for Linus and other people
>physically located in the United States need to be able to
>to contribute.  Once Freeswan is in Linus' kernel, it will
>receive greater contribution and testing from both *inside*
>AND *outside* the United States.
>
>IMO:  The current Freeswan policy *encourages* law makers to
>change the laws.  Many companies have an invested interest
>in Linux.  Those companies are willing to spend lots of
>money on lawyers to protect Linux.  If IPSec is not part of
>Linux and is not in widespread Linux use, those companies
>will not have the need to defend us.  We'll have kept crypto
>out of the hands of the people all on our own -- without
>the government's help.
>
>Do you really think that great programs like GNU Privacy
>Guard are going to magically disappear if the US government
>changes their regulations?  Can they magically be erased
>from the net, just because some US contributions were
>made?
>
>- Dima
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>The Cryptography Mailing List
>Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to 
>majordomo at wasabisystems.com




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 14:51:16 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:51:16 -0600
Subject: The Dallas Morning News: Texas/Southwest - FBI: Uncorroborated threat received against Texas schools
Message-ID: <3C17DF64.ECB1C1B1@ssz.com>


Heads up folks!!!!

http://www.dallasnews.com/texas_southwest/ap/stories/AP_STATE_0069.html

-- 

 --
    ____________________________________________________________________

             Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.

                                             Bumper Sticker

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From faustine at lokmail.net  Wed Dec 12 13:54:27 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:54:27 -0500
Subject: FYI: "What the Heck is OPSEC?"
Message-ID: <200112122154.QAA10666@mail.lokmail.net>

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From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Wed Dec 12 17:31:01 2001
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:31:01 -0700
Subject: Sameer on the History of Remailers
Message-ID: 


http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2/remailers/

... what that CNN article wanted to say.




From carlo at wirelesscellutions.com  Wed Dec 12 15:39:17 2001
From: carlo at wirelesscellutions.com (Carlo Rodriguez)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:40:17 -0459
Subject: This Week's Deals!
Message-ID: <200112130111.fBD1BlJW021752@ak47.algebra.com>

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From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 12 11:34:18 2001
From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott)
Date: 12 Dec 2001 19:34:18 +0000
Subject: FW: FreeSWAN Release 1.93 ships!
In-Reply-To: "Lucky Green"'s message of "Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:53:19
  -0800"
References: <00da01c181ff$c0e4d3b0$c33a080a@LUCKYVAIO>
Message-ID: 


"Lucky Green"  writes:

> FreeS/WAN occupies a position very rarely found in efficient markets,
> such as open source software. While the position is rarely encountered,
> it can nonetheless exist: I believe that FreeS/WAN is a natural
> monopoly.


My impression from the show of hand at the HAL2001 FreeS/WAN session
was that OpenBSD's IPSEC was being used rather more than FreeS/WAN.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk
    
    don't anthropomorphize computers; they don't like it.




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 19:47:48 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:47:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <200112130146.UAA12269@mail.lokmail.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:

> Back to remailers: this might have a boneheadedly obvious answer, but
> is there a role for non-publicized privately-run remailer networks to
> serve as a "privacy buffer" before putting messages thorugh the public
> remailer system?
>
> For example, if I had the hardware, software, phone lines, internet
> connections and time to run multiple autonomous mixmaster remailers
> out of my basement to route my own messages (and dummy traffic) around
> before funneling them to a public remailer, would there be any way to
> keep all-but-the-last box entirely shut off from view? Could you
> achieve this degree of anonymity from running Reliable? What would it
> take to keep a private remailer network truly private?

Perhaps I'm unclear on what you are proposing... but if this is really a
private system, as soon as the mail exits, it's obvious that it came from
you, no matter how much you mixed it around in your basement. So what's
the point?

> And what about the idea of surreptitiously installing this kind of
> private remailer network via piggybacking a stripped-down
> highly-anonymous version of remailer software onto other people's
> badly-maintained networks--free POP accounts to hold the traffic,
> maybe along with some sort of remote administration tool for
> maintenance. A tiny trickle of traffic has all the obvious problems,
> but is it possible that a "single user" scheme like this might be
> sufficiently under the radar to go completely unnoticed? Little
> invisible pinprick remailers that pop up all over the place, and
> dissappear almost as fast as they spring up. Mosquito Remailers? Just
> a thought.

It's been discussed here before. Ian Goldberg and others talked about
disposable exit hops, Steve Schear on temporary remailers, other people on
inexpensive, auto-configuring "remailer on a chip" designs that could be
surreptitiously introduced to random networks...

> p.s...and yes, I'm off to "Go Read the Archives"TM.

Unfortunately, you'll find that these ideas aren't new, and the answers to
their problems aren't easy.


-MW-




From wolf at priori.net  Wed Dec 12 19:49:37 2001
From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:49:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: <787929b189d997e243a0edbaecbeebd3@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, Anonymous wrote:

> Do you know how many messages are going through the remailer network
> now?  How many do you think the average remailer processes in a day?

I'm assuming 5-10K/day. I don't know what Tim and others discussed at the
meeting that Tim references. Ask him.

> Now, how many do you think a remailer ought to be handling in order for
> there to be enough traffic for people to feel safe?

I'm unsure. Part of the problem is that I really don't know how many
people are sending messages to the remailer network each day. I suspect
the number is low.


-MW-




From tbr at bora.com  Wed Dec 12 20:00:55 2001
From: tbr at bora.com (Tabla bin Rasa)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:00:55 -0800
Subject: JDL topples WTC
Message-ID: <3C1827F7.B510CDE1@bora.com>


At 09:45 PM 12/12/01 -0600, Jon Beets wrote:
>What would you do if a foreign government occupied
>your country?

Ask the French Resistance or Osama :-)

>Subject: Jewish Terror Attack on US Foiled
>> LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The chairman of the militant Jewish Defense
League and
>> a follower have been arrested on suspicion of plotting to blow up a
Los
>> Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman,
federal

They have now provided *excellent* evidence for the conspiracy nuts
who suspect that Mossad downed the WTC.




From nobody at dizum.com  Wed Dec 12 11:20:24 2001
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:20:24 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship 
Message-ID: <9847a6c7f7cfe6247bba76d5cbd77b42@dizum.com>


Declan McCullagh writes:
> I always enjoy Jonathan's essays, and this one is no exception. He
> properly points out the disturbing analogy that Attorney General
> Ashcroft seems to make (http://www.politechbot.com/p-02900.html)
> between criticism and treason.

What Ashcroft actually said, from the URL above, was:

> We need honest, reasoned debate; not fearmongering. To those who
> pit Americans against immigrants, and citizens against non-citizens;
> to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty;
> my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists - for they erode
> our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to
> America's enemies, and pause to America's friends. They encourage people
> of good will to remain silent in the face of evil.

The simple fact is that Ashcroft spoke the truth.  Such criticisms
do erode national unity and diminish resolve.  In fact, most critics
would fully agree with these goals.  Unity and resolve on a national
level scare civil libertarians.  A unified nation is a rash nation.
Democracies should be thoughtful, their actions carefully considered
and taken only after due deliberation.  Having a thousand voices urging
different courses is far safer than a single voice which all obey.

Some claim that behind the truth of Ashcroft's words is a veiled threat.
Aiding national enemies is indeed one of the definitions of treason.
Yet in the larger sense such a reading is plainly absurd.  No Attorney
General would ever attempt to make the case that criticising government
policy is treasonous and should be forbidden.  Hard as it may be for
the present audience, blinded by their ideology, to see the real world
for what it is, any such attempt would be political suicide.

Given this reality, there is clearly no real threat in Ashcroft's
statement.  Instead the critics are intentionally misreading him in
order to accomplish exactly those goals he mentions: to sow disunity
and weaken resolve.  It is nothing more than a rhetorical trick.

Let us hold to the truth.  Ashcroft is right in his characterization of
his critics' goals, and his critics are right to try to achieve those
goals.  It is misguided to attack Ashcroft by making the false claim
that he views criticism as treason.  Instead, critics should attack his
position that national unity and resolve must be preserved.  This would
be a substantive debate which would enlighten the American public and
raise awareness of important issues.  Unfortunately the critics have
descended into politically motivated mud-slinging and have deprived
Americans of a valuable opportunity.




From faustine at lokmail.net  Wed Dec 12 17:46:52 2001
From: faustine at lokmail.net (Faustine)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:46:52 -0500
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
Message-ID: <200112130146.UAA12269@mail.lokmail.net>

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From artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 12 19:26:58 2001
From: artcamp_2002 at yahoo.com (Artcamp SC de RL)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:26:58 -0600
Subject: Hola friend greetings from Guerrero Mexico
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212212629.023cc580@pop.mail.yahoo.com>


Hola friend greetings from Guerrero Mexico

Algunas de nosotras estudiamos ingles en los Estados Unidos
(las jóvenes que se fueron con sus papas mientras ellos trabajaban de
braceros por allá). Gracias a ellas, ahora tenemos mas facilidad para aprender
y usar este idioma. Nosotras estamos aprendiendo a base de traducciones
que  hacemos comoejercicios en nuestras casas y ellas nos corrigen
y así poco a poco vamostodas  mejorando en esta difícil tarea.
Nos cuesta mucho trabajo y es muy difícil, pero sabemos que si queremos 
tener éxito,
esto va a ser primordial manejarlo, así que pues ni modo,
lo tenemos que hacer cueste lo que cueste.

Some of us studied English in the United States (as youth going with their
parents who worked as bracero laborers there) Thanks to them we have the
facility to learn and use the language. We are learning based upon 
translations
that we make as exercises in our homes and they correct us and little by 
little
we are improving in this difficult task. It costs us a lot of work and it 
is very difficult,
but we know that if we wish for success, this is necessary to work for it,
and so therefore we do what we must do.

Hace años nos dijeron que debíamos utilizar el Internet
para poder dejar de ser lo desconocidos que somos.

Years ago we were told that we ought to utilize Internet
to stop being the unknowns that we are.

Algunos de los miembros de nuestra cooperativa han trabajado
por casi tres años en aprender HTLM y los programas necesarios
para poder crear nuestro sitio web.
Contratamos algunos maestros de computación para que nos ayudaran.

Some members of our cooperative have worked for nearly three years
to learn the HTML code and the programs necessary to be able to be able to
create our web site  We hired some teachers of computation to help us.

Finalmente creamos nuestro sitio web
pero todavía estamos tratando de hacer que funciona para nosotras

Finally we created our web site and we are trying to make this work for us.

Confiamos en que Dios nos va a ayudar porque tenemos mucho que ofrecer
y porque sabemos producir nuestras artesanías y constantemente buscamos
cada día nuevas formas para crear lo que nos indican que el mercado de hoy 
quiere.

We believe that God is going to help us because we have much to offer
and because we know how to produce our handcrafts and constantly we seek
each day new forms to create what the markets of today desire.

Quiero darte la dirección del sitio web que creamos (este es el tercer
intento mejorado) de Artcamp (esto es una abreviación de Artesanas Campesinas),
y es el nombre de  nuestra cooperativa.

I want to give you the address of our website that we created
(it is the third attempt to improve it) of Artcamp
(this is an abbreviation of Artesanas Campesinas which means in English,
Rural Women Artisans.

Me gustaría que lo visites y nos aconsejes sobre lo que debemos de estar
haciendo para mejorarlo y poder obtener beneficios del mismo,
como nos dijo el amigo que nos aconsejo hacer este proyecto.

I would like that you visit it and advise us about what we should be doing
to improve and to gain advantage of it like our friend said who advised us 
to do this project.

La dirección es http://www.artcamp.com.mx
Estaré esperando tus comentarios.

The address is http://www.artcamp.com.mx
We will wait for your commentaries.

Eso es todo por el momento, muchas gracias por reconocernos
y esperamos estar en contacto.

That is all for the moment, many thanks for recognizing us
and we hope to be in contact.

Sus amigas en Guerrero México,
saludos todas las mujeres de la cooperativa
de Artcamp:

Your friends in Guerrero México, greetings from all the women of the
Artcamp cooperative.

Yolanda Areli Tamara Marcela Maria Hilaria, Luz, y Anglica y las otras

Ojalá que un dia nos puede visitar aquí en México!

We hope that one day you may visit us in Mexico!

Atentamente,

Nohemi



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com





From Jon.Beets at pacer.com  Wed Dec 12 19:45:32 2001
From: Jon.Beets at pacer.com (Jon Beets)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:45:32 -0600
Subject: Jewish Terror Attack on US Foiled
References: <200112122341.fBCNfXV10747@artifact.psychedelic.net>
Message-ID: <002d01c18388$9d8514e0$03d36b3f@pacer.com>


I still do not understand how we can support Israel as we do..  From what I
have seen they are as much to blame for their problems as anyone else (maybe
more)...  When I was a much younger man I sided with Israel (American public
schooling, what can I say..)... Now that I am 37, I am tending towards the
Palestinian cause.  I don't approve of the radical groups attacking
civilians but I wouldn't at all disapprove of them attacking the Israeli
government agencies.  What would you do if a foreign government occupied
your country?   Of course allot of the problems would not turn out to be so
violent if countries would stop letting religions run their governments.
Hell, a dictatorship would have works things out by now.....

Jon Beets
Pacer Communications

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Cordian" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:41 PM
Subject: Jewish Terror Attack on US Foiled


> Gosh - doesn't anyone like the United States anymore?  Give the fuckers
> $3 billion a year in aid, and they elect a war criminal as their Prime
> Minister and pull shit like this.
>
> -----
>
> LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The chairman of the militant Jewish Defense League and
> a follower have been arrested on suspicion of plotting to blow up a Los
> Angeles mosque and the office of an Arab-American congressman, federal
> authorities said today. Irv Rubin, 56, and a member of the group, Earl
> Krugel, 59, both of Los Angeles, were arrested last night after the last
> component of the bomb -- explosive powder -- was delivered to Krugel's
> home, U.S. Attorney John S. Gordon said. Authorities said the two planned
> to bomb the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City and the office of freshman
> Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.
>
> --
> Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de  Wed Dec 12 12:45:41 2001
From: Eugene.Leitl at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Eugene Leitl)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:45:41 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [Remops] And when he returns in February? (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <7ba270f960d343ff110f77b6c9b5ea50@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, A. Melon wrote:

> Ninny.

Got no taste of online soap?




From gbroiles at parrhesia.com  Wed Dec 12 21:57:02 2001
From: gbroiles at parrhesia.com (Greg Broiles)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:57:02 -0800
Subject: Steganography, My Ass: The Dangers of Private and
  Self-Censorship 
In-Reply-To: <9847a6c7f7cfe6247bba76d5cbd77b42@dizum.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212213721.055c0b60@bivens.parrhesia.com>


At 08:20 PM 12/12/2001 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:

Nomen Nescio wrote recently -

>Some claim that behind the truth of Ashcroft's words is a veiled threat.
>Aiding national enemies is indeed one of the definitions of treason.
>Yet in the larger sense such a reading is plainly absurd.  No Attorney
>General would ever attempt to make the case that criticising government
>policy is treasonous and should be forbidden.

.. but s/he is apparently unfamiliar with the events described in

_United States v. Schenck_ 249 US 47 (1919);
_United States v. Debs_ 249 US 211 (1919);
_Abrams v. US_ 250 US 616 (1919);
and _United States v. Pierce_ 252 US 239 (1920);

all of which are US Supreme Court cases upholding convictions of people for 
the crime of criticizing existing government policy and/or urging 
noncooperation with war-related activity. There were approximately 2000 
prosecutions and 1000 convictions for violations of the speech-related 
Espionage and Sedition acts during World War I.

Nomen quoted Ashcroft as saying "We need honest, reasoned debate; not 
fearmongering" - but Nomen and Ashcroft's call for debate which occurs 
after decisions are made and people are jailed, not before, puts them 
firmly in Beyond the Looking Glass territory, to wit -

>`It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards,' the Queen remarked.
>
>`What sort of things do YOU remember best?' Alice ventured to ask.
>
>`Oh, things that happened the week after next,' the Queen replied in a 
>careless tone. `For instance, now,' she went on, sticking a large piece of 
>plaster [band-aid] on her finger as she spoke, `there's the King's 
>Messenger. He's in prison now, being punished: and the trial doesn't even 
>begin till next Wednesday: and of course the crime comes last of all.'
>
>`Suppose he never commits the crime?' said Alice.
>
>`That would be all the better, wouldn't it?' the Queen said, as she bound 
>the plaster round her finger with a bit of ribbon. Alice felt there was no 
>denying THAT.
>
>`Of course it would be all the better,' she said: `but it wouldn't be all 
>the better his being punished.'
>
>`You're wrong THERE, at any rate,' said the Queen: `were YOU ever punished?'
>
>`Only for faults,' said Alice.
>
>`And you were all the better for it, I know!' the Queen said triumphantly.
>
>`Yes, but then I HAD done the things I was punished for,' said Alice: 
>`that makes all the difference.'
>
>`But if you HADN'T done them,' the Queen said, `that would have been 
>better still; better, and better, and better!' Her voice went higher with 
>each `better,' till it got quite to a squeak at last.

sound familiar?


--
Greg Broiles -- gbroiles at parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961
Eliminate due process, civil rights? It's the Constitution, stupid!




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Wed Dec 12 20:03:01 2001
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:03:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CNN.com on Remailers
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



I can clear her point up for you...

http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18

On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Faustine wrote:
> 
> > Back to remailers: this might have a boneheadedly obvious answer, but
> > is there a role for non-pu