Laws of mathematics, not of men

[Tim May]

At 10:17 AM -0700 8/1/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

>Now here's the funny part.  In California, (with some specific exceptions)
>carrying a concealed knife is a felony, while carrying a concealed pistol is
>a misdemeanor (for the first weapons offense).  So given the relative
>severities of the laws, why in the world would you carry a knife instead of
>a gun?  (Insert stupid joke here about an engineer bringing a knife to a gun
>fight.)

Aside from the other issues, I'll address this point just on its own merits.

I know of many arguments that a knife can be gotten into a fight and 
used effectively _faster_ than a gun can, especially in very close 
quarters. (Which is where a mugging is likely to occur.) This is much 
debated in places like misc.survivalism and martial arts groups, but 
views are heard on both sides. Cops of course carry guns, but then 
they are likely to engage targets from further distances than most of 
us can when suddenly attacked. I think it plausible that inside an 
arm's length radius, a man with a knife can incapacitate a man with a 
gun faster than vice versa. Some expert knife folks _claim_ (no 
opinion offered here) that they can close a 15-foot gap and 
incapacitate a man reaching for a gun faster than he can get go to 
the gun, aim, and fire (let alone hit on the first or Nth shot). 
Whatever. Knives are easier to carry in urban situations without 
causing ANY legal problems.

Knives also have other uses; I use mine nearly everyday for some task 
or another.

Next, the laws about knives, concealed or otherwise, are 
complicated...and are seldom-enforced even as written. The knife 
Sandy saw was not even concealed: it was a single-edged Cold Steel 
Safe-Keeper, in a belt sheath. _Some_ prosecutors might claim it was 
a "push knife," but:

a) Push knives are not banned, even by California's bizarre laws. 
It's just not one of the "banned" forms (ballistic knives, shurikens, 
sword canes), and it sure ain't "concealed" if it's in a belt sheath. 
And the sharpening on only one edge is yet more evidence that it 
ain't a "dagger" (though I see plenty of SCA people blithely carrying 
sheathed daggers, even stuck in belt loops under robes and other 
clothing, and hence "concealed"--no cop in the land will bust someone 
in this situation).

(A useful reference is http://home.earthlink.net/~jkmtsm/calaw.html, 
which also has links to the relevant California codes.)

b) California changed its laws about concealment of knives to allow 
_far_ more deadly knives to be freely carried, even concealed.I 
usually carry a quick-opening (_very_ quick-opening) Benchmade 
folder. I carried the Cold Steel because it was open carry, hence no 
issue of concealment. And since it wasn't a banned form, even by the 
pre-'96 rewrite of the laws, it wasn't illegal.

c) Even with the old laws, when was the last time there was a knife 
prosecution, as opposed to busting someone for unlicensed carry of a 
handgun? The latter outnumber the former by probably 1000-to-1, even 
though carry of knives in various "concealed" ways (in purses, under 
coats, in backpacks, in the tops of boots, etc.) probably outnumbers 
concealed carry of handguns by a factor of 100-to-1. Do the math.

d) The encounter Sandy describes took place in a conference room 
inside Cygnus Support offices in an office complex. Last I checked, 
this was not public property, not even by today's liberal standards. 
In fact, no different from my demonstrating a Glock or SIG at a 
Cypherpunks meeting held at my house. Now if Cygnus Support had a 
problem, or the owner of the leased facilities had a problem, they 
could have told me to put the knife away (though this actually makes 
it even _more_ concealed, as anyone who follows the debate 
knows--it's the opinion of some that the only way to get a kitchen 
knife home from a department store without _technically_ violating 
the concealed carry laws is to have it in a locked box).

e) Most cops would rather have people carrying concealed knives, a la 
folders, than wearing knives on their belts. Something about scaring 
the horses, even if open carry is legally the more "technically 
correct" thing (especially pre''96) to do.

Now, would I carry a knife into one of the Del Torto Cypherpunks 
meetings held (foolishly) inside a San Francisco police training 
facility? No. Yet another reason I wouldn't go to such a CP meeting. 
A foolish meeting location, counter to nearly everything we once 
supported.

But carrying a perfectly legal knife in a perfectly legal way (open 
carry, unconcealed) on private property, displaying no "intent" to 
use it illegally (*)...what does Sandy have to complain about?

(* "Intent" shows up in a lot of the California, Colorado, and other 
cases involving knives taken from suspects during pat-downs. But 
since I was legal in all ways, I won't even open this can of worms.)

My reply to Sandy at the time was what I generally say to anyone who 
lectures me on laws. I'm more aware than most of what the laws say. I 
don't need busybodies lecturing me on their opinion of what the law 
allows and doesn't allow.

For Sandy to attempt to bring me to the attention of the cops remains 
despicable.


--Tim May



-- 
Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California
Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon
Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go
Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns