Timothy McVeigh

[Eric Cordian]

Jon Beets writes:

> Hmmm lets see, if I remember right that actually was not an air raid
> shelter it was a military hold which the people of the community were
> told was "safe" to hide in...  Or am I just to believe that is our own
> government propaganda?

Yes, it was our own government propaganda, just like the "baby milk"
factory being a top secret biological weapons manufacturing facility, and
numerous other such examples from the war.

> Hmm I guess all the Kuwaiti's that the Iraqi's killed brings nothing into
> this equation of yours? Including the removal of Kuwati babies from their
> incubators so the iraqis could take the equipment.. 

The famous "baby incubator" story was fiction performed in front of the US
Congress to mobilize support for the war, and the supposed eyewitness was
later revealed to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador.  The entire
episode was scripted by an American PR firm hired by the Kuwaiti
government.

Goodness, I thought everyone with more than five brain cells was aware of
these undisputed facts, which were widely publicized at the time.

> Oh yea and the Kuwaiti commanders that were hung at the main gate of Al
> Jaber AB and their body's left there for several days for everyone to
> see..  And before you say that both of these did'nt happen I have been
> there twice for several months and have seen the photgraphs and
> personally talked to the people that were witness to it.. It did happen.

As the old Russian saying goes, "He lied like an eyewitness."

I am aware there there is no credible evidence supporting the first
allegation, and I am not familiar with the second one.  If you have such
evidence, feel free to set up a web site, and let people judge for
themselves.

> Apparently you have never been in the military... 

This is kind of like someone criticizing the parent beating their child
with a 2x4, and the first words out of the parent's mouth are a smug -
"You're obviously not a parent, are you?"

The first sign of a nutcase is the attempt to disqualify everyone who
isn't a member of their clique from commenting on their behavior.

Particularly odd when the pathology of the behavior is apparently to
almost everyone, without the need for special training.

> Because you have no real idea how the common soldier is taught or
> trained.. You probably have all your training from watching Full metal
> jacket baout 40 times....

So, you post to Cypherpunks a lot, do you?

I assure you I have a knowlege of not only how soldiers are trained, but
the behavioral engineering behind it.

>> When's the last time you saw a 1-hour special of the Waco Victims'
>> favorite family videos?  No firemen holding dead babies for the
>> cameras there.

> Ohh I get it so we should'nt mourn over these individuals?  Ok they 
> deserved it because they were working there... and the kids across the 
> street at the day care center deserved it too....  

We should mourn all individuals unjustly slaughtered.  We should also
recognize that public outrage over such killings is directly proportional
to the media airtime used to promote their victimhood.  So clearly, the OK
victims get a better opportunity to do this than the Waco victims.

American lives, are, despite what you may believe, not worth more than the
lives of any other humans on the planet.

> Interesting though the people in waco were given the chance to come out
> on their own several times.. 

The first excuse of every bully is that the victim "made him do it" by not
acquiesing to his demands.

> Do I believe that the government got together and decided to kill 
> everyone at the Waco compound? NO... Do I believe the governement made a
> mistake at Waco... YES...  

The government got together and decided upon a course of action which
showed reckless disregard for the people in the building, and had as its
primary purpose a demonstration that no one may defy the government and
get away with it.  The safety of the people in the building was only a
minor consideration.

Was anyone held accountable for their deaths?  NO...  We had a commission
whose purpose was to whitewash the whole thing, and write a report blaming
the victims.

Did the government make a "mistake" at Ruby Ridge too, where FBI Sniper
Lon Horiuchi shot and killed Vicki Weaver as she held her baby in her
arms?

> Do I believe Timothy McVeigh sought out to kill everyone he could at the
> federal bldg... YES.. 

Yes, he tried to kill lots of people at the federal building.  Your point?

Tim McVeigh has no monopoly on killing large numbers of civilians while
"sending a message" to some government.  It wasn't Tim McVeigh who was
quickly bulldozing the dead Panamanian citizens into mass graves just in
time to get them out of the way for the arriving reporters. 

I could cite numerous other cases. 

> Drove him?  Drove him how?  You think the only way to make change in
> this country is to do violent acts? 

"Terror is a very effective form of communication."
                               --Delenn, Babylon 5

Now, if Tim McVeigh had tried to get 2/3 thirds of the states to ratify a
Constitutional Amendment prohibiting the government from barbequing and
shooting children, do you think he would have gotten his message sent as
quickly or as effectively?  Sometimes dirty deeds demand dirty
retaliation. 

The United States is the world's foremost International Bully, and a
premiere committer of violent acts to further its foreign policy goals.

The United States has zero moral authority to criticize Tim McVeigh's
methods.

> He was not a soldier who malfunctioned.. He was a man who made a
> decision and know he must pay for it..  

The US Government made some decisions, and now it has paid for them too.

Sauce for the gander, and all that.

> Executions should be public just like the trials.. Otherwise we are no
> better than other countries where even the accused is represented by
> someone who works for the government... 

The last two federal trials I've followed, McVeigh's, and Jim Bell's,
there was no doubt in any ones mind that the defense attorney was working
for the government.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"