The Culture of Secrecy, Disinformation, and , Propaganda...

Jim Choate ravage at einstein.ssz.com
Mon Apr 16 05:44:58 PDT 2001



On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> I was offering a definition for 'fully distributed.'

You were doing more than that, you setting boundary conditions on the
'participants' as well, it's overly strict and limits the definitions
usefullness becuase it a priori eliminates some sorts of distributed
systems.

Strictly speaking simply having a 'distributed' system where each
participant catches as catch can based on their particular individual
strategies and resource 'windows' doesn't require that all participants
have the same strategies or 'windows'.

> It is possible for a system to be distributed without being fully 
> distributed.

Granted, it's called a 'regulated market'. It is where each of the
participants has a 'role' to play (ie is a member of a ' hyper
cycle').
 
> The existence of structures, priveleges, or roles in some parts which 
> cannot arise in other parts, or cycles where nodes can be excluded 
> if other nodes are removed, are possible in some distributed systems.  
> The subset of distributed systems in which they are not possible, I 
> call 'fully distributed'.

I'd say they are possible in ANY system, fully distributed or not. There
are issues of 'transport delay' and 'diffusion rate' that all limit the
effect of participants and help create situations where hyper-cycles
become 'emergent behaviours' (eg life on Earth). Besides "Laws of the
Game" by Eigen (which I've mentioned before) you should also check out,

The Major Transitions in Evolution
J.M. Smith, E. Szathmary
ISBN 0-29-850294-x

Signs of Life: How complexity pervades biology
R. Sole, B. Goodwin
ISBN 0-465-01927-7

> Usenet is an example of a system which is fully distributed.

Actually this has the same limitations as the 'Napster' model, it requires
a centralized

> If all the backbone nodes went down tomorrow, a thousand linux geeks 
> across the country could work out the news routing software and 
> could put it back up without them inside of a week.

The same could be said for Napster or any other software once the
'intellecutal property' is widely enough know. Something to do with
'advancing the state' I suspect.

> >Otherwise the entire 'pay
> >yoru way' would fall down, there'd be no reason to pay anything for
> >anything. If you were all interchangeable you'd already have whatever
> >it was we were talking about exchanging.
> 
> Not necessarily.  I might have the means to produce it, but not 
> the time or inclination or expertise.

Wow, that was easy. Thanks for recognizing my point. There are 'non
economic' issues which effect the economic issues. This causes
non-linearity or irrationality (depending on ones view) in the choises.
This causes a fundamental disjunct with the 'all players are the same'.

Now, the problem is what does cryto-anarchy offer as protection as abusive
strategies in this environment? In mathematical words what does it offer
to ensure that no 'hyperbolic' strategies are used? Nothing. This is a
major failing because it means the 'market equilibrium' can be
significantly effected by a single participant to the detriment of all.
This is contrary to the point of a 'market' and most definitely the point
of a 'free market'. The thesis behind a 'free market' is that the choices
are numerous enough, and the product non-descript enough, that no
hyperbolic strategy is allowed to exist a priori.

This takes us right back to that famous question:

Where does this stability come from? It is not inherent in the market
itself. Since crypto-anarchy and Friedman style free-markets assume a
priori this thesis there is a flaw in them.

> Government and many other organizations work the same way; there 
> are irreplaceable nodes within them that, if shut down, spell 
> the death of the organization.  (Hint: it ain't the president of 
> the US).  What some here call crypto anarchy, may well wind up 
> being only the fully distributed form of government.

Actually in a representative government there aren't any such 'master
nodes' if it's worked out right. Of course this runs completely contrary
to human nature and most persons individual desires (they want to be
indispensible and everyone else to be interchangable).

Further, your broad assertion (implied admittedly) that all governments
must have master nodes doesn't bode well for crypto-anarchy or free
markets (as I've said for years). It implicitly admits the non-linearity
of human desires.

> Water exists in places where no trees are.  Consider Titan.

No, ice exists. A distinct and important difference when we're talking
about 'life' as the model of the system. Now if water is found at Titan
AND no life is found then you'd have a single point of reference. But
still incomplete. Because you would have to demonstrate that there was no
flux involved such that the loss of water from Titan into space from
evaporation (or whatever the technical term is, sublimation perhaps) isn't
replaced from some other source. I find that highly unlikely. More likely
you'll find life which traps the water in a hyper-cycle or else you'll
find a net negative flow rate OFF Titan. Might take a long time but that's
not the point.

The assertion is after all that 'water exists without a tree'. This is
clearly true, but the key point is the 'tree' which is a off handed
reference to a hyper-cycle. Not all hyper-cycles must involve life. Which
goes right along with my assertion that not all players in the game are
identical or interchangeable.

I would contend that no water exists on a planetary body of any size
unless there is a hyper-cycle of some sort to trap it.

    ____________________________________________________________________

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