CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..

[Craig Brozefsky]

Jim Choate <ravage at einstein.ssz.com> writes:

> On 21 Sep 2000, Craig Brozefsky wrote:
> 
> > Considering the current situation, and the contant referrals to it as
> > Capitalism, I wonder how useful this definition really is.
> 
> Who refers to capitalism as socialism? If they equate these two polar
> concepts then this indicates the speaker doesn't have a clue.

Well, petro attempted to define socialism as:

	"Socialism *always* means that the same people in a society who
         control the use of force also have control over the economic
         structure."

My comment was directed at the ambiguity of this definition.  For most
of human history, those who controlled the use of force had control
over the economic structure.  The control was excercised thru various
social institutions ranging from direct theft, to fuedal landholdings,
to centralized beurocracies, to corporations and nation-states.

Today our economic structure is dominated by corporation, global
capital, and the fading nation-state.  These same institutions which
structure our economy also control the use of force, and/or are
dependent upon it.  The notion of private property is maintained under
threat of force.  Nation states enforce, or don't enforce, capital
controls, trade regulations, and the various other economic policies
which shape our economic structure with the threat of force as well.
People call this Capitalism.  It would seem that the current situation
fits petro's definition of Socialism.

So, as I said before, petro's definition doesn't seem very useful
since it fails to distinguish two different types of
political-economic arrangements.  But perhaps petro was just advancing
that as a cocktail-party quip, and not as a useful definition of
socialism.  That's ok.

I also don't think capitalism and socialism are polar opposites, but
perhaps that's for another discussion.  Ideologically they are set up
as polar opposites, but structurally they are not.  In fact any
feasible socialism will incorporate many of the features we associate
with capitalism including competition, markets, distributed
decision-making, and globalized production.  Just as any existing
capitalism today contains elements of socialism.  This is not too
imply the two are interchangeable.

-- 
Craig Brozefsky               <craig at red-bean.com>
it's alright 'cos the historical pattern has shown / how the
economical cycle tends to revolve / in a round of decades
three stages stand out in a loop / a slump and war then peel
back to square one and back for more -- Stereolab "Ping Pong"