From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Sep 2 15:44:39 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 17:44:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR: Austin: Physical Meet - Sept. 12, 7-9pm Message-ID: Central Market HEB Cafe 38th and N. Lamar 7-9pm We usualy meet outside unless the weather is inclimate. Look for the red covered "Applied Cryptography" book. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From billp at nmol.com Sat Sep 2 17:07:06 2000 From: billp at nmol.com (billp at nmol.com) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 18:07:06 -0600 Subject: CDR: load1 going goodbye Message-ID: <39B1962A.825A7388@nmol.com> http://share.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/load1.html Try do do something about Lee. COMPLAIN http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ From bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au Sat Sep 2 18:38:30 2000 From: bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au (BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 21:38:30 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000831152154.00966800@pop.sprynet.com> from "David Honig" at Aug 31, 2000 06:47:39 PM Message-ID: <200009030138.e831c8A01316@octarine.itsc.adfa.edu.au> > > At 12:00 PM 8/31/00 -0400, Joseph Ashwood wrote: > >No but I feel free to type a hundred or so, but that's beside the > >point. The claim made was that anything a human can remember, a > >computer can brute force, this was simply one very clear example that > >it simply was not true, as I rather thoroughly established. > > Anything large that a human can remember has enough structure so that you > don't need brute force, you use a dictionary-based attack. A human can easily remember 26 random letters from a 32 character alphabet with a little mnemonic method (eg map each character to a word so that it makes up some sort of dumb story). 5*26==130 which is more bits than computers can currently exhaust over. From arnoldstamp at china.com Sat Sep 2 19:10:41 2000 From: arnoldstamp at china.com (arnoldstamp at china.com) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:10:41 -0400 Subject: CDR: FREE!!! quotes on New Cars Message-ID: <200009030200.TAA05021@sirius.infonex.com> Looking for a NEW Car? Check out the GREATEST prices for NEW CARS!! GO TO http://www.themortgageden.com/cars.html NOW FOR BEST DEALS Click HERE for the the BEST DEALS Absolutely FREE, no cost to you. NO HASSLES...NO STRESS....NO COST to check out the best deals. Want to save time and money? Want to have quick access to car quotes? Want to have all makes and models available to you? CLICK on the link below to get the lowest prices on ALL makes and models. Avoid the aggravation of the traditional buying process. GO TO http://www.themortgageden.com/cars.html NOW FOR BEST DEALS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If for any reason you do not want to recieve offers in the future click the link below to be removed mailto:shave_cream at china.com?subject=Remove ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tcmay at got.net Sun Sep 3 00:55:52 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 00:55:52 -0700 Subject: CDR: Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:10 PM +1000 9/3/00, Rob Henry wrote: >Explain what this site is please! > >cos' i'm very confused You're much more than confused. You're stupid. For starters, this is not "a site." Some people are too stupid to be allowed to live. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Sun Sep 3 00:38:59 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 03:38:59 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: none In-Reply-To: "Rob Henry"'s message of "Sun, 3 Sep 2000 03:16:41 -0400" References: Message-ID: <8466oehqmb.fsf@athena.dhis.org> "Rob Henry" writes: > Explain what this site is please! > > cos' i'm very confused This site? Let me look around. Ah, yes. This site is the secret Cypherpunk nuclear launch bunker from which we can rain nuclear fire down from the heavens with a single thought. Over in that corner over there is the closet where we keep almost ten years worth of food, for use in case we have to go into hiding or nuclear winter falls upon us all. And in that corner over there is the weapons locker. And there is the Beowulf cluster with 16TB of drive space, hooked to the Internet with multiple T3s. And that over there is an airlock. Do you want to see it? Ah, of course you do. Just step in there. Yeah, that's it. Now those lights up there show the door status. Let me show you. Now, we close the door like this, and that light changes, then I can push this button. Ignore that click. Then if I push this button, that digital display will start showing increased air pressure. And we let it run for a few minutes... What? Yeah, I saw that James Bond movie too. Now I just hit this rapid decompression switch and *that* light will change... Hey, someone get maintenance over here. Some idiot was in the airlock again and he exploded. I hate it when that happens. It's such a mess, and the tissue is really hard to get off the glass. From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 02:36:53 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 05:36:53 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken? In-Reply-To: <39AFAD59.A3FB12FF@acmenet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Steven Furlong wrote: >I used to work for a full-text indexing company. (So I can argue from >a position of authority, and you can't dispute anything I say. ;-) ) >The problem of indexing and matching text is not a hard problem in the >mathematical sense, but it quickly becomes computationally gruesome. I know, I know. No essential difference between text and pure binary data except a more limited alphabet and even lower mean entropy per symbol sent. >For myself, I often use as pass phrases memorized phrases from >literature. Which ones? Well, I read four languages, and I do the >number/letter and symbol/letter substitutions, so I feel secure even >revealing that clue. Good for you. Most people never go to even that much trouble. But I still think that dictionary searches on, say, all consequtive subsequences of 6-200 characters in the top 100 most likely to have been read books of a given adversary, with common variations (suppression of punctuation, all upper and lower case, adjunction of numbers below from 0-999 in the beginning and end of the phrase, all caps with first capital and vice versa, for the phrase and all words etc.) does not get too hard too fast, especially if we have statistics of people's habits which allow us to work the more likely candidates (like all lower case with little extra changes) first. And it *is* likely to work for the majority of adversaries. I also conceed to your point: serious crypto buffs like most people on this list would probably have little to fear from such attacks... Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 03:02:23 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 06:02:23 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000901094220.0096be90@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, David Honig wrote: >>Nuh. I think they should be happy about biology education - might one day >>give them a nice young crackpot with the talent to create a drug user >>killing flu... > >Then they lose a taxpayer or at least prison slave labor. Well, who's there to say you cannot create less potent variants first, which only make users sicker than normal people. Then, over a couple of decades, increase the effect subtly. If done in secrecy we can accumulate 'research' which shows that the drugs indeed do kill, lending popular support to even stricter control/paternalism. >The US govt funds research into vaccines that make recreational >pharmaceuticals not fun in the innoculated. I know. I think they already have the first prototypes ready, at least for THC. Of course, it's not very dependable yet. Actually putting the relevant functionality in a suitably well designed retrovirus could innoculate most of the population without ever seeking consent. Again, possible to achieve in secrecy since at least THC is known to be unpleasant to some people - suddenly the percent would be 90. Biotech certainly opened some interesting horizons for me... ;) Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 03:15:21 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 06:15:21 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <84itsgc8rn.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: >Not to mention that there exists a certain peptide, the name of which >escapes me at the moment, which is naturally occuring in the >brain. It is five amino acids long, and exerts an effect about 5000 >times stronger than that of Heroin. There are far more where that came >from. Of course. Just as there is anandamide, the transmitter which hemp compounds mainly mimic. Only you do not easily get such substances into the brain without using a needle - proteins generally do not get through the blood-brain barrier absent active transport. So you would need proteins which, after somehow having been delivered in the blood stream whole, are actively transported (this means extra 'handles' so that the molecule is recognized) across the barrier, then we probably need a working mechanism which then processes (cleaves, oxidises etc.) to obtain a final active compound. All in all, you do not easily deliver proteins to the brain. >Time for the War on Neurobiology. I'll have to use that one. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From prosperity4allnow at alloymail.com Sun Sep 3 08:45:13 2000 From: prosperity4allnow at alloymail.com (prosperity4allnow at alloymail.com) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 08:45:13 Subject: CDR: Pre Launch **This is THE BIG ONE** Message-ID: <200009031122.EAA18923@cyberpass.net> 30,000 enrolled in less than 10 days! 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Have a GREAT day, Barb ********************************************************************** Please Note: You're receiving this email because you answered an advert I ran, you sent an ad about your program to one of my e-mail addresses, or you posted a link at my FFA links site. If at anytime you would like to be Removed from my address book, simply click on the link below mailto:remove.me at lakmail.com?Subject=REMOVE or send a blank e-mail to remove.me at lakmail.com with "REMOVE " in the subject line and you'll be removed immediately. Thank you. From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 3 05:46:34 2000 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 08:46:34 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <39AE96D4.AAC330D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>; from k.brown@ccs.bbk.ac.uk on Thu, Aug 31, 2000 at 01:33:57PM -0400 References: <39AE8CA3.7F6DCA6B@lsil.com> <39AE903F.248BF2DB@acmenet.net> <39AE96D4.AAC330D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20000903124142.A566@tightrope.demon.co.uk> No he is British. On Thu, Aug 31, 2000 at 01:33:57PM -0400, Ken Brown wrote: > > Er, I thought Terry Pratchett was a European... > > Steven Furlong wrote: > > > > Michael Motyka wrote: > > > > > > Petro wrote: > > > > What do you expect from a bunch of whipped Europeans? > > > > > > > > To quote T. Pratchett "They don't need chains, they have obedience." > > > > > > > The only difference is that they know they are whipped. We have the > > > chains but no obedience. Chains paid for by our own money. > > > > It's better to be chained but with the goal of freedom than to be an > > unchained but content slave. The self-proclaimed masters can be > > overthrown, lethally if need be. > > > > (Thought I'd beat Tim to that. I don't kill without good cause, but I'd > > count this as a good cause.) > > > > SRF > > > > -- > > Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel > > 518-374-4720 sfurlong at acmenet.net > > -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- mark twain From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:50:27 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:50:27 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: "..do not count on the anonymity of the Internet to serve In-Reply-To: <20000901230314.16497.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000901160848.00982670@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:56 PM 9/1/00 -0400, Bill Orme wrote: According to one law >enforcement >spokesperson: "Anyone who would use the Internet to >commit >a crime should understand one thing -- do not count on >the >anonymity of the Internet to serve as a shield for >your illegal >conduct. As technology advances, so do our >investigative techniques >and our abilities to protect the public." It would help to use a more anonymous terminal (than your college) and not to attack someplace where you've worked. And not to have the stock options in your real name. Sounds like an act of desparation, not a carefully planned attack. Of course, the dude couldn't have done the attack had he not worked there before, and info-traffickers will learn to use better authentication. Means, motivation, opportunity. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:50:53 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:50:53 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Good work by FBI and SEC on Emulex fraud case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000902135923.0096e280@pop.sprynet.com> At 07:45 PM 9/1/00 -0400, petro wrote: > Of course, one of there roles could be "verification" of the >press release, i.e. Emulex signs it, and rather than having to have >985,234,003 keys on my key ring to verify every press release I read, >the News Service can sign the whole thing saying "we witness that >this press release was signed with the proper key".. Couldn't software automatically check releases against a key given by a URL? (Skipping the problems with DNS, etc.) But yeah its always good to have human reputations on the line, too. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:51:19 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:51:19 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program In-Reply-To: References: <39B01988.D68C7A92@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000902140538.0096f940@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:48 PM 9/1/00 -0400, Tim May wrote: >(Not taking anything away from Furlong's work. I bought Knuth's book >on LP, circa 1994 or so, but never got into it in a major way--being >a Lisp and Smalltalk kind of person, I didn't see the point. But, to >be fair, there was much discussion of "how can they ban programs when >programs are speech?" back in 1993 or so, when Clipper was a hot >issue. To "pull a Tim," check the archives.) The issue is one of complexity management, and synch. How to keep doc synced to code, how to reduce impedence of poor sap forced to learn and edit someone else's code. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:51:19 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:51:19 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program In-Reply-To: <39B0FD25.AE37A15@acmenet.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000902145320.00970b40@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:14 AM 9/2/00 -0400, Steven Furlong wrote: ><> >As the President has made clear, encryption software is >regulated because it has the technical capacity to encrypt data and >by that jeopardize American security interests, not because of its >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 13026, 1996 WL 666563. Were this true, carrying a copy of _Applied Crypto_ (not including source) out of the country would be illegal. It is not. The law is an ass. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:51:19 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:51:19 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <5d3ca9972a878cdc700c1d6c5819be0a@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000902150739.0096b250@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:46 AM 9/2/00 -0400, A. Melon wrote: > > People have grafted hops vines onto cannabis roots for years, that >ain't no net legend. Hops and C.s. are closely related, and grafting ain't genetic surgery. Catnip is also related, which explains certain feline behaviors. (Just kidding, likely catnip is anti-parasite, and cats somehow know this... that's the most rational explanation I've heard for feline affinity for that mint.. now get your claws off me.. damn feline antidefamation league) But now that the knowledge of the high DMT content >in many common plants, such as reed canary grass (.58%-1% wet), which grow >widely all over NA and Euro and much of the rest of the world, is being >just as widely disemminated, along with the very simple extraction >techniques (run it through a Wheat Grass Juicer, slow dry the liquid, smoke) >the possibility of controlling strong psychedelics is nil. > Reed Canary grass, BTW, has proven almost impossible to eradicate, where- >ever it has a foothold. What are you, a toadpunk? goddamn tryptamine freaks. Keep your jaguars to yourselves. The sequence for smallpox is in the public domain, btw. The endogenous endorphin peptides previously mentioned would be the smallest concern, if synthesizers became common. Libyans taking molebio courses watch out. Hey Joe, where you goin' with that sequence in yo' hand? .. looking forward to -producing-kudzu... 8-) From pinkyzoo at gte.net Sun Sep 3 08:15:42 2000 From: pinkyzoo at gte.net (Kathy Pinckert) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 10:15:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: Message-ID: <200009031516.KAA19489308@smtppop2.gte.net> From ravage at ssz.com Sun Sep 3 09:20:42 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:20:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR: auditable gaming PRNGs (Re: PRNG server) (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:49:16 -0500 From: Adam Back Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com To: bill.stewart at pobox.com Cc: petro at bounty.org, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: CDR: auditable gaming PRNGs (Re: PRNG server) Seems to me you can do better with a gaming server. If the gaming server servers RNGs in a sequence such that each sample in the sequence can be verified, they don't need to trust the server; or at least there is an audit function. Eg. say that the server publishes subsequent pre-images in a hashchain. h_0 h_{i+1} = h_i and the server computes h_i values up to i = 10^8 and then publishes them starting with h_{10^8}, h_{10^8-1}, ... Then anyone can verify that the random number is the preimage of the previous random number. You do something similar with a more efficient (log(n)) auditing function with merkle authentication trees. If they aren't doing this someone should clue them in. Adam ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Sep 3 09:49:16 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:49:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: auditable gaming PRNGs (Re: PRNG server) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000831095346.00983b80@idiom.com> (message from Bill Stewart on Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:53:46 -0700) Message-ID: <200009031649.LAA00305@cypherspace.org> Seems to me you can do better with a gaming server. If the gaming server servers RNGs in a sequence such that each sample in the sequence can be verified, they don't need to trust the server; or at least there is an audit function. Eg. say that the server publishes subsequent pre-images in a hashchain. h_0 h_{i+1} = h_i and the server computes h_i values up to i = 10^8 and then publishes them starting with h_{10^8}, h_{10^8-1}, ... Then anyone can verify that the random number is the preimage of the previous random number. You do something similar with a more efficient (log(n)) auditing function with merkle authentication trees. If they aren't doing this someone should clue them in. Adam From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Sep 3 08:54:10 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:54:10 -0400 Subject: CDR: export reg timewarp? (Re: RC4 source as a literate program) Message-ID: <200009031656.LAA00314@cypherspace.org> The US export regulations no longer prevent export of crypto. PGP exported binary copies of PGP from US websites, as now do many other companies. Crypto source is exported also from numerous web sites. I don't follow why all the discussion talking as if ITAR and EARs were still in effect in unmodified form. Adam From jya at pipeline.com Sun Sep 3 09:26:42 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 12:26:42 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: export reg timewarp? (Re: RC4 source as a literate program) In-Reply-To: <200009031656.LAA00314@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <200009031634.MAA06683@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Adam Back wrote: >The US export regulations no longer prevent export of crypto. PGP >exported binary copies of PGP from US websites, as now do many other >companies. Crypto source is exported also from numerous web sites. > >I don't follow why all the discussion talking as if ITAR and EARs were >still in effect in unmodified form. Good point, except that PGP.com and Freeware still have export restrictions on downloads, as do most other US crypto export sites. This is probably due to the fact that nobody understands the export regs and better safe than lose out on fat government contracts, and corollary contracts with other corporations who dare not offend the authorities. Even some private sites which rushed to offer crypto on the Internet have withdrawn their offerings. And, according to Matt Blaze's tabulation of such offerings, they have nearly petered out. Don't forget that there is till a review required by BXA for strongest products. What happens in those reviews has not been disclosed as far as I know. Whether the NDA is voluntary to hide trade secrets, compulsary to hide dirty dealing, or worse to hide really nasty access requirements -- probably some of all these in the great American tradition of promising much and delivering not so much unless you play ball under the umpires clubhouse rules. Nicky Hager (of Secret Power fame) co-wrote another book on a PR war in NZ in which he covered at length the practice of governments and corporations hiding their filthy deals from freedom of information access through the loophole of protecting proprietary information from the public. Another commentator pointed out recently that the vast majority of FOIA requests are indeed made by people seeking commercial intelligence which is not intended to be made public , and relatively few seeking information to release to the public. So there is a bind on getting info on what actually happens at BXA and its co-agencies during crypto export review. However, in contrast to a few years back, I don't see many corporations or individuals calling for greater access to closed information about crypto export procedures. Could be all the crypto folks are doing just fine under the system, so why bitch about making it into the comfort zone. And, oh yeah, fuck the public interest now that the crypto public outreach PR campaigns did their job to get inside the sweetheart PR loophole. Doug Porter has written an interesting update about all this crypto flim-flam in the "Pocket Guide to NSA Sabotage:" http://cryptome.org/nsa-sabotage.htm And what the fuck is Schneier doing trashing crypto to build his security consulting business? That sounds like priests preaching Our Church Alone salvation to keep the flock frightened, dependent and shelling out for long term protection contracts. You know, like the one-world feds and all-world spooks. From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 02:48:16 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:48:16 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europenas In-Reply-To: <2a9628d23d99f4d9cd94010fcce47251@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, No User wrote: >> Nuh. I think they should be happy about biology education - might one day >> give them a nice young crackpot with the talent to create a drug user >> killing flu... > > Or better yet, a flu that killed everybody without sufficient THC residue >in their body. Or a modified influenza (which I think is a retrovirus - anybody?) which actually splices your THC gene into the subject's own genes for good, perhaps with a promoter area borrowed from some suitably chosen selectively activated gene (say, the gene controlling lactic acid metabolism which could make for a high every time the person engages in anything physical). Whatever. Of course there are lots of variations. Actually I think that the post about THC producing oranges is a bit far flung. From what I know about THC, it's pretty far from a protein, which are the only things produced under the control of a single gene. I also think that oranges are not very close relatives of hemp, so it is unlikely that close enough precursors to THC would be present to enable us to produce THC with the addition of a single enzymatic cleavage stage or some such simple step. And from what I know about genetic technology, it isn't quite on the level of enabling complicated (i.e. considerably more than a single gene) biochemical syntheses to be transferred from species to species. In a word, I think the magic oranges might be legend. Of course, there might be shortcuts - instead of using recombinant DNA techniques, we could perhaps try to get cells with both orange and hemp cellular nuclei to divide. I don't think either of these particular plants is prone to accepting such a treatment (unlike, I think, rye). Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 05:25:54 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:25:54 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: CDR: Re: Re: Is kerberos broken? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, petro wrote: > Of course, a *simple* substitution of one word (or even >spaces) would make this *much* harder. As I said, people on this list hardly have a problem with dictionary attacks. > "Friends, Romulans, fellow countrymen, lend me your beers..." > > (I probably buthered the hell out of that, never having heard >or read the original, but I think it gets the point across) Wasn't that your whole point? ;) Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From sfurlong at acmenet.net Sun Sep 3 12:30:52 2000 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:30:52 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program References: <3.0.6.32.20000902145320.00970b40@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <39B2A6CB.1701DFB4@acmenet.net> David Honig wrote: > > At 09:14 AM 9/2/00 -0400, Steven Furlong wrote: > ><> > >As the President has made clear, encryption software is > >regulated because it has the technical capacity to encrypt data and > >by that jeopardize American security interests, not because of its > >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 13026, 1996 WL 666563. > > Were this true, carrying a copy of _Applied Crypto_ (not including > source) out of the country would be illegal. It is not. The law > is an ass. Yah, Judge Gwin appears pretty clueless here. And don't forget how the PGP source code was exported: printed using a special font, then carried to Europe, then scanned and OCR'd. An awful lot of wasted effort, for no gain in the US's national security. By the way, you got your aphorism wrong. It's "The law is a ass"; Mr. Bumble in Charles Dickins' _Oliver Twist_. Mr. Bumble was pretty much "a" ass himself, so I'm not sure that quoting him conveys quite the message that is usually intended. -- Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel 518-374-4720 sfurlong at acmenet.net From marcello.magnifico at rccr.cremona.it Sun Sep 3 16:06:47 2000 From: marcello.magnifico at rccr.cremona.it (Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:06:47 Subject: CDR: about this list, and a poor man's crypto Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it> I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why. 1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world. 2. I'm not bragging around about what illegal I did (if I ever did) and why I think I'm right (of course I am! ;->) and why the other guys are wrong (of course they are, indeed! ;->) 3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of: -discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide -"we hate pigs" -US local laws discussions (see 1) -simple fluff and/or flaming. 4. Some smeghead is boycotting the list by subscribing it to other lists, or the list address went into some spammer's archive spreaded worldwide. Sorry, but I don't like all that and can't stand the flow of a list that massively talks about anything else than crypto: that's why I'm leaving (now). For the nuisance of having read this apparently off-topic e-mail message, you should be at least rewarded with a poor man's crypto solution. :-) In Italy we don't seem having a corpus of laws about/against crypto, so it's possible to develop almost anything. Not being linked to general concepts and standards about what crypto is or should be, that's how I figured out the concept of "brute-force key". It's the trivial usage of large keys in non-public key environments, at the expenses of weakening the encryption algorythm. It may seem stupid, but current technology makes it possible and very effective, depending only on the ability of generating good random byte sequences. Let's say you store your key on a diskette that carries at least 170Kbytes (I can, so you should, too ;->). Well, a 170Kbytes key _is_ strong, and performance can be achieved by using a trivial XOR algorythm, in circular or bustrophedic (back-and-forth) sequence if the message to be sent is larger. XOR implies that the key MUST be a long random string, because you might want to transmit a file with long 0x00 sequences, too. XORing 0x00 exposes parts of your key, so they should look undistinguishable from non-null encrypted data, that will appear as random rubbish (that's the purpose of crypto, right? :->). Let's say someone sent you an encrypted file via e-mail. After the file is decrypted (you met in person one night, let's say eating some pizza, and passed the key; it's safer than passing it via modem), you can simply pass it through a Unix-like 'file(1)' utility and establish which program should read it (the message can be a text file, an archive or an executable; cryptanalysis is almost impossible when the spy doesn't know what the output looks like). A neat trick could be using a random sequence that is larger than any message you'll ever transmit (let's say you're using a Zip cartridge, a tape or a CD-Rom instead of a diskette). Another one would be interleaving random "disturbing" data while producing the encrypted file, by all means inflating it, in order to make cryptanalysis much harder. Fantasy is the only limit. Pass the encrypted stuff under stego, and you're 99% save because few people can detect stego and the transmission itself will be hidden for most Bad Guys. If you don't care about ITAR laws (and it seems that you, being the Cypherpunks, actually don't), then you can start developing your own "final" encryption system at any time, being sure it has no backdoors. 1M44, a nowadays' diskette size, is a very good key size that is REALLY impossible to brute-force attack by Your Enemy (that can be, i.e., your Big And Bad rival corporation on the market). For any developer not at a beginner level, the key doesn't need to physically fit in RAM memory and can be directly read from its physical support at need. For smart and very distant geeks, it's possible to use as a key some compressed (pseudo-random) files widely available (a game, an MP3 or such; even operating system portions) and use that "safer-than-nothing" channel to exchange the big key. bye, and have fun with crypto stuff! RDO P.S.- Legal disclaimer: this message and its contents were not developed in the United States. In no way the author is responsible for the use or misuse of this message or contents, nor for the message itself. From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Sun Sep 3 13:17:46 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:17:46 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: Sampo A Syreeni's message of "Sun, 3 Sep 2000 06:15:21 -0400" References: Message-ID: <84zolpgrhw.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Sampo A Syreeni writes: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: > > >Not to mention that there exists a certain peptide, the name of which > >escapes me at the moment, which is naturally occuring in the > >brain. It is five amino acids long, and exerts an effect about 5000 > >times stronger than that of Heroin. There are far more where that came > >from. > > Of course. Just as there is anandamide, the transmitter which hemp compounds > mainly mimic. Only you do not easily get such substances into the brain > without using a needle - proteins generally do not get through the > blood-brain barrier absent active transport. So you would need proteins > which, after somehow having been delivered in the blood stream whole, are > actively transported (this means extra 'handles' so that the molecule is > recognized) across the barrier, then we probably need a working mechanism > which then processes (cleaves, oxidises etc.) to obtain a final active > compound. All in all, you do not easily deliver proteins to the brain. Yes, I know that. The point, though, was that the war on drugs is futile and is about to be made worse. If you think our freedoms are compromised for the War on (some) Drugs now, just wait fifteen years. On the topic of the blood-brain barrier, another example is compounds such as cocaine, which exist in charged and uncharged forms. Normally, the ratio is something like 99:1, so it takes some time for the entire dose to actually get into the brain where it can do something. Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular" powder. Societies -- and American society in particular -- seem to loathe actually fixing problems. We find secondary or tertiary (or worse) symptoms, and try to treat those. This is partially because fixing the real roots of the problem also affects other things, makes some of the American people accept responsibility for some things, and is suicide to a politician. This doesn't work, of course. It's like giving someone with chronic headaches, vertigo, and dementia some asprin and psychoactive drugs; it masks the symptoms, but doesn't fix the problem, which might be a brain tumor. From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Sun Sep 3 13:18:37 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:18:37 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program In-Reply-To: David Honig's message of "Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:51:19 -0400" References: Message-ID: <84vgwdgrgg.fsf@athena.dhis.org> David Honig writes: > At 09:14 AM 9/2/00 -0400, Steven Furlong wrote: > ><> > >As the President has made clear, encryption software is > >regulated because it has the technical capacity to encrypt data and > >by that jeopardize American security interests, not because of its > >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 13026, 1996 WL 666563. > > Were this true, carrying a copy of _Applied Crypto_ (not including > source) out of the country would be illegal. It is not. The law > is an ass. So is the President and most of Congress. From We_The_People_ at webtv.net Sun Sep 3 14:11:13 2000 From: We_The_People_ at webtv.net (Patriots) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 17:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDR: ? Message-ID: <2609-39B2BE71-8934@storefull-236.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Can you send us a anonymous remailer that will work with the toy webtv ? Sons of Liberty Militia                                 Tim Stine 312 S. Wyomissing Ave.                             Shillington, Pa. 19607 U.S.A.                       1-610-775-0497 We_The_People_ at webtv.net What is a Militia ? Defenders of Liberty & Freedom, and the Constitutional Republic. Against Tyrants ! Foreign and Domestic ! Resist the United Nations New World Order, and it's Global Socialism, actually a Evil Oligarchy of the Superrich. We must Declare our Independence from the U.N. New World Order ! Or forever lose our freedom. We_Must_Resist. For_God_And_Country. The_American_Revolution_Continues !!! http://community.webtv.net/We_The_People_/SonsofLibertyMilitia From treborwh at bigpond.com Sun Sep 3 01:10:55 2000 From: treborwh at bigpond.com (Rob Henry) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:10:55 +1000 Subject: CDR: Sender: owner-cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com Message-ID: Explain what this site is please! cos' i'm very confused From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Sep 3 17:06:57 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 20:06:57 -0400 Subject: CDR: export reg timewarp? (Re: RC4 source as a literate program) In-Reply-To: <200009031656.LAA00314@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000903161039.02454a08@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 11:54 AM 9/3/2000 -0400, Adam Back wrote: > The US export regulations no longer prevent export of crypto. > PGPexported binary copies of PGP from US websites, as now do many > other companies. Crypto source is exported also from numerous web > sites. Because the law is still unclear and ambiguous, and the government likes to keep it that way. A plausible interpretation of current legislation, court decisions, regulations, and observed practice by enforcement agencies, is that code with public source code may be freely exported, and code with secret source code may be exported provided the government first gets to know all the weaknesses you are hiding from the public. However the government could decide tomorrow that what we thought the law is, is not actually the law, and we are all going to jail. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG rfi1pubCBFZOwR01VuZcfDdQx9XBa2LJRDuMEIws 4K2OgqaKgCp+9BWcwwXv0EITlnD3DomQOZ5ZY9lVT From info at vteams.com Sun Sep 3 22:38:44 2000 From: info at vteams.com (info at vteams.com) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 22:38:44 -0700 Subject: CDR: Vteams Fantasy Sports Message-ID: <200009051211.FAA04454@toad.com> This is not a spam! You are receiving this message as an opt-in subscriber to our opt-in mailing list. If this is not the case, PLEASE accept our sincerest apologies and reply with "remove" in the subject field. We will remove your name immediately! Don't miss out!! www.vteams.com The newest edge to FREE FANTASY SPORTS. Opening season for NFL Football is upon us. WhooHoo! There is still time to play and compete for your chance to win $5000. So, Play to Win!!! www.vteams.com The lastest & greatest in FREE FANTASY SPORTS! **************************** NOTICE ************************************* This is not a Spam email and there are no sales offers contained in this email. You have received this email because you are listed on our in-house mailing list. If you have somehow gotten on this list in error, or for any other reason would like to be removed, please reply to this email with "remove" in the subject line of your message and you will be promptly removed. This message is being sent to you in compliance with the proposed Federal legislation for commercial e-mail (H.R.4176 - SECTION 101Paragraph (e)(1)(A)) AND Bills.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th U.S. Congress From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Mon Sep 4 00:07:05 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 03:07:05 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken? In-Reply-To: <200009030138.e831c8A01316@octarine.itsc.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Sep 2000, BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES wrote: >A human can easily remember 26 random letters from a 32 character >alphabet with a little mnemonic method (eg map each character to a >word so that it makes up some sort of dumb story). 5*26==130 which >is more bits than computers can currently exhaust over. True, especially if you salt with a suitably long random number and combine the two with a sufficiently nasty serial computation. Most of this thread does not, despite the strong wordings, actually concentrate on what average people *can* do but what they are likely to do when they do not have any real reason/incentive to guard their privacy. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Mon Sep 4 00:32:38 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 03:32:38 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <84zolpgrhw.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: >Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes >that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at >once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular" >powder. 'Freebasing' wasn't it? Cook in high pH to release the free alcaloid form from the salt. What I do not remember is the precise reason for the high permeability - water solubility? Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From baptista at pccf.net Mon Sep 4 06:09:11 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:09:11 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If I remember correctly - the formula is simple enough. 1 part (unit) cocain for every 10 parts (units) of baking soda. Mix well - add water until you have a paste - then smear past on flat baking pan - place in oven until mixture hardens (no I don't remember the temperture one uses - but it would be somewhere between 200 - 300 F). When the mixture hardens - you let it cool to room temputer and then hit it with a hammer to break it up - and viola - you have crack cocain - the most evil substance on the planet. regards Joe Baptista http://www.dot-god.com/ dot.GOD Hostmaster On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: > > >Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes > >that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at > >once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular" > >powder. > > 'Freebasing' wasn't it? Cook in high pH to release the free alcaloid form > from the salt. What I do not remember is the precise reason for the high > permeability - water solubility? > > Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university > > From brflgnk at cotse.com Mon Sep 4 06:20:53 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:20:53 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans Message-ID: <968073477.39b3a1059f443@webmail.cotse.com> Said by Sampo Syreeni : -- begin quote -- >Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes >that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at >once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular" >powder. 'Freebasing' wasn't it? Cook in high pH to release the free alcaloid form from the salt. What I do not remember is the precise reason for the high permeability - water solubility? -- end quote -- I don't think so. The hydrochloride form (regular "powder") is water-soluble, but the free alkaloid is fat-soluble. That's why it's smoked instead of snorted. But the process not only converts the cocaine, it also loses any dilution material ("cut"). So the final dose is, for all practical purposes, pure cocaine that needs no additional conversion in the bloodstream. It might not be permeability that's responsible for the different effect. Could be a simple matter of delivering a higher quantity of ready-to-permeate material. From ravage at ssz.com Mon Sep 4 07:24:12 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:24:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR: Quantum 'dead' time found [science daily] Message-ID: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/09/000901080350.htm ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 4 09:42:47 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:42:47 -0700 Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting In-Reply-To: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de> References: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 2:19 PM +0200 9/4/00, Tom Vogt wrote: > >- a place >========= >since the number of participants is a total variable, that's a difficult >part. I'm currently looking for some kind of cafe or other place with >both indoors and outdoors seats/tables that's large enough, has an >acceptable atmosphere and is otherwise suitable. > > >- an agenda >=========== >there should be at least a rough outline and a topic or two. if anyone >wants to speak about a specific topic, tell me. First, good luck on your meeting. Second, here's my experience with informal Cypherpunks physical meetings: * we in the Bay Area have had numerous informal gatherings at coffee shops, outdoor seating areas, other public areas (a la '2600"). And this is with an attendance sometimes reaching 50. (Which, in my crotchety opinion, is too high. Attendance over about 20 tends to make the event a lecture rather than a gathering.) * agendas are seldom needed. We got by in the first, and most interesting, few years of the Cypherpunks will little or no agenda in advance. We sat around a table or on the floor and we talked. Sometimes someone got up and went to a blackboard, if available, and drew pictures. * too much of a formal agenda tends to encourage "guest speakers," which, in my view, is _not_ a good idea. Sometimes a notable guest speaker is a good idea, but usually the result is that someone not part of the culture talks about what his or her company or organization is doing...things which are readily discoverable from Web sources. * and don't be afraid to discuss politics and political implications of technologies. Again, this used to be more common in the early days of the Bay Area Cypherpunks meetings. (As time passed, as meetings grew larger, politics just about vanished completely. Perhaps this is too harsh an assessment, but I believe the Bay Area Cypherpunks meetings in the past few years have just become the place for twentysomething geeks to show up to talk to others and to check out job prospects. Almost _none_ of the 50 or so attendees at a typical Saturday gathering are participants in the Cypherpunks list, tellingly.) Bigger is not always better. In conclusion, I encourage you to just "hang loose." ("lose sein") --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bear at sonic.net Mon Sep 4 09:52:10 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDR: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.1.20000831214532.00b93820@mail.intplsrv.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Sean Roach wrote: >As regards Petro's response to same. >Read up on the history of the U.S.A., and U.K. >Unless I've misinterpreted, slaves were forbidden to learn to read in the U.S. Not exactly. They weren't forbidden to learn; however, it was forbidden for anyone (including other slaves) to teach them. It amounts to the same general thing (instruction being unavailable to them) but when a bunch of slaves gathered around Sojourner Truth for lessons in reading, it was her that was breaking the law, not them. >Native Americans were made to give up thier traditions in favor of >"civilized" customs. Yeah. And some of them did and some of them didn't. >And the Irish were similary denied the ability to read, or to play thier >traditional music. (Bards tended to sing songs counter to the english >policies.) It's a long damn tradition, unfortunately. In England, it goes back to the Norman invasion and the way the Saxons were treated; but the Normans were just copying the Romans, and the Romans were just copying the Greeks. >Last I heard, the bagpipe was still considered a weapon. There's a guy who gives Foghorn "concerts" in Golden Gate Park. He has to wear hearing protection and a padded suit, otherwise it leaves bruises all over his body and he can't hear for a few days. His face still winds up black-and-blue, especially around the eyes. There's a law against playing amplified instruments without a permit -- but foghorns aren't amplified, they're just LOUD. After hearing this guy once, I did an interesting study in sound physics, which leads me to believe it is probably possible to create a vehicle-mounted, deisel-powered bagpipe-like device that could be used to play tunes and which would simultaneously destroy buildings. Considering the bagpipe a weapon isn't that far off.... and not just for reasons of the ideas behind the songs they traditionally accompany. >If I heard right, It became illegal to speak Scottish Gaelic, for a time. When the culture of a conqueror is sufficiently different, and they can get away with it, they always try to take the native language away. That takes away all the old songs and poetry, and most of the stories, and makes it easier to stamp your own culture on a subjugated people. Bear From waterhouse at inficad.com Mon Sep 4 03:45:08 2000 From: waterhouse at inficad.com (waterhouse) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:45:08 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <00090410451801.31594@split> From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Mon Sep 4 12:35:36 2000 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:35:36 -0800 (PDT) Subject: CDR: "..do not count on the anonymity of the Internet to serve as a shield for your illegal conduct" Message-ID: <200009041845.LAA05107@mail5.hushmail.com> >"Anyone who would use the Internet to commit a crime should understand one thing -- do not count on the anonymity of the Internet to serve as a shield for your illegal conduct. As technology advances, so do our investigative techniques and our abilities to protect the public." Quite true. However, any well informed LE-type will tell you only amateurs are likely to be caught. I dare say if we select one of this list's more informed members, say Black Unicorn, and assume he intended to engage in a similar exploit as this fellow from Bloomberg. I would find it highly unlikely that BU would ever be apprehended for the deed (assuming he didn't brag). ks From honig at sprynet.com Mon Sep 4 08:39:11 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:39:11 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <84zolpgrhw.fsf@athena.dhis.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904083240.00978e30@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:17 PM 9/3/00 -0400, David Marshall wrote: >On the topic of the blood-brain barrier, another example is compounds There's also a trick where you can add an acetyl group to a small molecule (not protein) to increase transport. Do it to salicylic acid, you get aspirin. Do it to morphine, you get heroin. FWIW From honig at sprynet.com Mon Sep 4 08:39:12 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:39:12 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program In-Reply-To: <39B2A6CB.1701DFB4@acmenet.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904083050.00975af0@pop.sprynet.com> >> At 09:14 AM 9/2/00 -0400, Steven Furlong wrote: >> ><> >> >As the President has made clear, encryption software is >> >regulated because it has the technical capacity to encrypt data and >> >by that jeopardize American security interests, not because of its >> >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 13026, 1996 WL 666563. Is this much different from the future proclamation: >> >As the [Judge] has made clear, [DeCSS] software is >> >regulated because it has the technical capacity to [decrypt] data and >> >by that jeopardize American [economic] interests, not because of its >> >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 666, WIPO No. 666 And how soon before posting of multimedia or filesharing tools requires the equivalent of the (unbounded) BXA/spook review/approval? "Ominous parallels" From schear at lvcm.com Mon Sep 4 11:55:29 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:55:29 -0700 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: References: <84itsgc8rn.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000904115249.0840a5f0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:15 AM 9/3/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: > > >Not to mention that there exists a certain peptide, the name of which > >escapes me at the moment, which is naturally occuring in the > >brain. It is five amino acids long, and exerts an effect about 5000 > >times stronger than that of Heroin. There are far more where that came > >from. > >Of course. Just as there is anandamide, the transmitter which hemp compounds >mainly mimic. Only you do not easily get such substances into the brain >without using a needle - proteins generally do not get through the >blood-brain barrier absent active transport. Most inhaled substances can easily circumvent the brain-blood barrier through a nasal path (forget which). Its now become a common dosage approach for certain brain medicines. steve From apoio at giganetstore.com Mon Sep 4 04:56:12 2000 From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:56:12 +0100 Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Regresso_=E0s_Aulas?= Message-ID: <0022c1356110490WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Aprender é certamente a maior aventura do Homem. Eis algumas das nossas sugestões... Dic. Port./Ing. gigapreço 5.890$00 Auto da Barca do Inferno gigapreço 5.490$00 Eu adoro Matemática gigapreço 6.500$00 Pasta Kanguros 40 (Cx.6) gigapreço 3.190$00 Marcadores Stabilo Boss gigapreço 1.590$00 Compasso Rotring Universal gigapreço 2.390$00 Organizador 3M C-61 gigapreço 3.290$00 Borracha Office 20 (Cx.10) gigapreço 780$00 PC2000 +Scan.HP +Imp.HP gigapreço 249.900$00 Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4167 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ricardo.de Mon Sep 4 04:00:20 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:00:20 +0200 Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken? References: Message-ID: <39B380C4.CA5BF2FA@ricardo.de> petro wrote: > Of course, a *simple* substitution of one word (or even > spaces) would make this *much* harder. > > "Friends, Romulans, fellow countrymen, lend me your beers..." not likely. crack has been guessing simple substitutions for years. From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 4 13:03:16 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:03:16 -0700 Subject: CDR: Re: about this list, and a poor man's crypto In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it> References: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it> Message-ID: At 4:06 PM -0700 9/3/00, Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico wrote: >I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why. > >1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world. Anyon is free to post, even people from Italy. That there are very few subscribers from Italy, or Botswana, or Gondwanaland, is just the way it is. > >2. I'm not bragging around about what illegal I did (if I ever did) and why >I think I'm right (of course I am! ;->) and why the other guys are wrong >(of course they are, indeed! ;->) "Bragging about what illegal I did" is in the context of civil liberties and the ground truth of cypherspace. If you don't "get it," it's probably best that you follow through on your promise to leave. Auf wiedersehen! Ciao! > >3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of: > -discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide > -"we hate pigs" > -US local laws discussions (see 1) > -simple fluff and/or flaming. And just which articles have _you_ contributed? > > In Italy we don't seem having a corpus of laws about/against crypto, so >it's possible to develop almost anything. Not being linked to general >concepts and standards about what crypto is or should be, that's how I >figured out the concept of "brute-force key". It's the trivial usage of >large keys in non-public key environments, at the expenses of weakening the >encryption algorythm. It may seem stupid, but current technology makes it >possible and very effective, depending only on the ability of generating >good random byte sequences. First, Italy has no corpus of laws about/against crypto for the simple reason that Italy has a weak Internet culture. Weaker than France, which is saying a lot. When you wake up some day and find that the Protection of the Constitution Law has been passed by your parliament, don't come to us and say "But I had no idea this was coming." Second, beware variants of the bogus "virtual one-time pad." Using keying material to encipher plaintext is an idea as old as the hills, even the hills of Rome. > > Let's say you store your key on a diskette that carries at >least 170Kbytes >(I can, so you should, too ;->). Well, a 170Kbytes key _is_ strong, and >performance can be achieved by using a trivial XOR algorythm, in circular >or bustrophedic (back-and-forth) sequence if the message to be sent is >larger. XOR implies that the key MUST be a long random string, because you >might want to transmit a file with long 0x00 sequences, too. XORing 0x00 >exposes parts of your key, so they should look undistinguishable from >non-null encrypted data, that will appear as random rubbish (that's the >purpose of crypto, right? :->). Cf. basic textbooks on crypto for why this is not a good solution. Read especially the parts on key distribution, on flaws arising from re-use of key material (cf. the Walker case), etc. Read also the mid-70s papers on why public key systems have such compelling advantages. I know this 25-year-old material must be boring to an enlightened Italian such as yourself, but you may find it useful to see why we backward Americans adopted public key systems over ""trivial XOR algorithms." > > If you don't care about ITAR laws (and it seems that you, being the >Cypherpunks, actually don't), For a very good reason: no state may compel a person to communicate only in certain forms acceptable to the state. If you don't get this point either, it's probably hopeless. Maybe you can find a copy of "1984" for starters. Meanwhile, claiming that the list is not what you would like it to be is, especially when you have not contributed anything, is...typical. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bear at sonic.net Mon Sep 4 13:24:52 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes) In-Reply-To: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Sep 2000 ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote: >Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language. The >Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a Californian >to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may even have >spoken Latin. An interesting point: There are ancient inscriptions in Wales that no one has been able to read in modern times. Deciphering an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never been done. And, as language, doubtless it has regular structure, patterns, grammar, and the flexibility of use that people in everyday lives need in speaking - and presumably they're not even encrypted. "Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto, may consist in creating an artificial language together, and then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on. Bear From tom at ricardo.de Mon Sep 4 05:19:39 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 14:19:39 +0200 Subject: CDR: europe physical meeting Message-ID: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de> sorry for the delays - I've been very busy with this DeCSS stuff. back to the meeting: I'm looking for 3 more things: - a time - a place - an agenda here's the rundown: - a time ======== my current plan says: Friday, 29th. September 2000 that is close enough to actually happen, and still long enough to allow for planning and travel arrangements. if anyone wants to come, but can't on that specific date, please yell NOW and make an alternative suggestion. - a place ========= since the number of participants is a total variable, that's a difficult part. I'm currently looking for some kind of cafe or other place with both indoors and outdoors seats/tables that's large enough, has an acceptable atmosphere and is otherwise suitable. - an agenda =========== there should be at least a rough outline and a topic or two. if anyone wants to speak about a specific topic, tell me. From bear at sonic.net Mon Sep 4 14:25:18 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 14:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDR: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico wrote: >3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of: > -discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide > -"we hate pigs" > -US local laws discussions (see 1) > -simple fluff and/or flaming. I'm with him, actually, about list content. I had hoped to find tech discussions going on. In the interest of making some news if you don't like the news you're getting, I present -- the Country Mile Cipher. Algorithm details available (for now) on http://www.sonic.net/~bear/crypto/countrymile.html This is a stream cipher based on the Blum-Blum-Shub pseuodo- random number generator -- and on work done more recently by Ronald Rivest, who "digitally sealed" a message that he expects to take 30 years of continuous computing to unscramble. The Country Mile Cipher has one interesting property; You can choose when you encrypt a message how much computing power it will require to decrypt it. This interesting property has two useful applications: First, you can make it that much more difficult to "brute-force" a key, so even if you are restricted in key length, you can still achieve reasonable security. Second, you can use it to "digitally seal" messages to people that will not unseal without a specified amount of computing time. I can foresee protocols where someone not having information for a specified length of time after it's delivered would be useful - It could be treated as a "bit commitment scheme" where the person making the commitment does not need to do anything else. Anyway - there's very little here that's my own invention. The Blum-Blum-Shub Random Number Generator is well-tested, and the mathematics for predicting its state into the future are explained in Schnier's book. I haven't really done anything except put some well-known and well-tested pieces together, so I'm pretty confident of the security of the Country Mile Cipher. So confident, in fact, that if anyone can come up with a viable attack on it, I will cheerfully pay the *first* person to do so fifty US dollars. :-) Ray Dillinger From ravage at ssz.com Mon Sep 4 13:33:34 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 15:33:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR: Re: about this list, and a poor man's crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 4:06 PM -0700 9/3/00, Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico wrote: > >I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why. > > > >1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world. > > Anyon is free to post, even people from Italy. That there are very > few subscribers from Italy, or Botswana, or Gondwanaland, is just the > way it is. That and none of them are willing to set up nodes, and advertise same localy, to help widen the reach of the list. A pity that the people doing the bitching are the ones empowered to fix it... ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cards at xqses.com Mon Sep 4 13:45:08 2000 From: cards at xqses.com (cards at xqses.com) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 15:45:08 EST Subject: CDR: You have received a greeting card Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@nowhere.com> 

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From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Sep  4 13:01:47 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:01:47 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: about this list, and a poor man's crypto
References: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it>
Message-ID: <39B3FF85.C276AE4C@acmenet.net>

"Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico" wrote:
> 
> I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why.

Don't let the doorknob hit you in the ass on the way out.

That being said, you make some points worth addressing.


> 1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world.

True, both parts. However, it seems that the majority of the regular
posters are American, and naturally are concerned about American
issues. Also, like it or not, the US is the behemoth of today's world,
and American regulations on crypto or the Internet will have an impact
on the rest of the world.


> 2. I'm not bragging around about what illegal I did (if I ever did) and why
> I think I'm right (of course I am! ;->) and why the other guys are wrong
> (of course they are, indeed! ;->)

Uh, ok, thanks for sharing.


> 3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of:
>         -discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide
>         -"we hate pigs"
>         -US local laws discussions (see 1)
>         -simple fluff and/or flaming.

Most unmoderated Usenet groups and mailing lists have a sizeable share
of "chatting" between participants. It's a fact of life. You can put
up with it, address it intelligently with filters or other means,
whine about it, or leave.

Coderpunks is a mailing list devoted to programming issues around
crypto. It has much less chatting and other cruft. See the archive at
http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks%40toad.com/
Subscribe to the list via a "subscribe coderpunks" message to
majordomo at toad.com

By the way, I don't recall having seen any on-topic posts from you.
Did you do anything to improve the signal-to-noise ratio on c-punks,
or did you just complain about it?


> 4. Some smeghead is boycotting the list by subscribing it to other lists,
> or the list address went into some spammer's archive spreaded worldwide.

That annoys many of the regular participants, too, as you might note
from reading the traffic regularly.

You might try reading c-punks on http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks
That'll let you read the traffic on threads that interest you without
being bothered by threads that don't.


-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From weinmann at rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de  Mon Sep  4 07:03:09 2000
From: weinmann at rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de (Ralf-Philipp Weinmann)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:03:09 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Tom Vogt wrote:

> here's the rundown:
> 
> - a time
> ========
> my current plan says: Friday, 29th. September 2000
> that is close enough to actually happen, and still long enough to allow
> for planning and travel arrangements.
> if anyone wants to come, but can't on that specific date, please yell
> NOW and make an alternative suggestion.

sounds ok. has anyone heard what happened to the RSA patent expiration
party on sept 20, that was supposed to take place in amsterdam btw ?

> 
> - a place
> =========
> since the number of participants is a total variable, that's a difficult
> part. I'm currently looking for some kind of cafe or other place with
> both indoors and outdoors seats/tables that's large enough, has an
> acceptable atmosphere and is otherwise suitable.

hmm.. we're still talking about hamburg here, right ? you're right in so
far as since this is the first european cypherpunk meeting one can have
absolutely no idea how many people will be showing. depending on how well
announced the meeting is i'd guess > 50 people however (maybe the bay area
people can give us a rough count on how much people are showing to an averge
meeting there and we can try to extrapolate something from that - cultural
difference nonwithstanding :)... there were physical meetings in non-west-coast
places as well, dunno remember where however. the numbers for those should be 
a little bit more of a benchmark/pointer to us).
A cafe sounds like a good idea, we might try meeting at a mall, on a public
place or somewhere else however.

> - an agenda
> ===========
> there should be at least a rough outline and a topic or two. if anyone
> wants to speak about a specific topic, tell me.

still thinking about that. i have a couple of topics in mind. will post
to the list after further re-consideration.

let's get things kicking!

cheers,
-ralf

--
Ralf-P. Weinmann 
PGP fingerprint: 2048/46C772078ACB58DEF6EBF8030CBF1724




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Sep  4 13:38:36 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:38:36 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
References: 
Message-ID: <39B40838.43AF6BC6@acmenet.net>

Ray Dillinger wrote:
> "Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto,
> may consist in creating an artificial language together, and
> then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on.

cf my remarks and questions on the use of Lojban for a personal log.
Lojban is an artificial language with a user base of several hundred.
I started a thread in mid-July. The consensus, from this list and some
law-oriented newsgroups, is that you can't be forced to translate a
journal written in a non-English language. Possibly you can't even be
forced to identify the language it's written in.

The matter of whether you can be forced to either decrypt encrypted
files or to provide the key is more confused: I got approximately
equal numbers of responses saying you can't be forced to decrypt and
saying you can be so forced.

I have not run either of those questions past lawyers that I've paid,
so the responses may be worth no more than I paid for them.


SRF
-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  4 16:45:23 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:45:23 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 1:24 PM -0700 9/4/00, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>An interesting point:  There are ancient inscriptions in Wales 
>that no one has been able to read in modern times.  Deciphering
>an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is
>written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that
>transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never
>been done. 
>
>And, as language, doubtless it has regular structure, patterns,
>grammar, and the flexibility of use that people in everyday lives
>need in speaking - and presumably they're not even encrypted.
>
>"Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto,
>may consist in creating an artificial language together, and
>then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on.

How is your "Poor Man's Crypto" different in any way from _codes_?

Cf. any standard text on why codes are not nearly as useful as ciphers.

--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From dis-list at rebelbase.com  Mon Sep  4 16:54:22 2000
From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (dis-list at rebelbase.com)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 16:54:22 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39B40838.43AF6BC6@acmenet.net>
 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000904165329.02c16328@mail.rebelbase.com>


>A criminal defendant has the right to remain silent. He cannot be 
>compelled to tell where evidence is located. He cannot be compelled to 
>testify against himself. (BTW, don't even bother, anyone, to bring out the 
>old chestnut of a person picking "I committed this crime" as his 
>passphrase. Dealt with convincingly many years ago.)

Can you expand on that?

I don't remember that issue being dealt with in a legal manner at all.


-Ian




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  4 17:13:55 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:13:55 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000904165329.02c16328@mail.rebelbase.com>
References: <39B40838.43AF6BC6@acmenet.net>
 
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000904165329.02c16328@mail.rebelbase.com>
Message-ID: 

At 4:54 PM -0700 9/4/00, dis-list at rebelbase.com wrote:
>>A criminal defendant has the right to remain silent. He cannot be 
>>compelled to tell where evidence is located. He cannot be compelled 
>>to testify against himself. (BTW, don't even bother, anyone, to 
>>bring out the old chestnut of a person picking "I committed this 
>>crime" as his passphrase. Dealt with convincingly many years ago.)
>
>Can you expand on that?
>
>I don't remember that issue being dealt with in a legal manner at all.
>

How many years have you been subscribed? How much of the archives 
have you searched?

In a nutshell, there is a recognized difference between the form of a 
statement and the content of a statement. A court would stipulate 
that uttering a passphrase would only be used in the context of the 
passphrase, not as an admission of guilt.

As I said, there's a section in the Cyphernomicon on this.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From jdd at vbc.net  Mon Sep  4 10:38:26 2000
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:38:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> >And the Irish were similary denied the ability to read, or to play thier 
> >traditional music.  (Bards tended to sing songs counter to the english 
> >policies.)  
> 
> It's a long damn tradition, unfortunately.  In England, it goes back 
> to the Norman invasion and the way the Saxons were treated; but the 
> Normans were just copying the Romans, and the Romans were just copying 
> the Greeks.  

It's easy to look at history in this way, seeing some people as 
villians and other as victims.  But do remember that St Patrick 
wasn't Irish at all.  He was an English boy, stolen by Irish pirates
and sold into slavery in Ireland.  And for centuries English kings
used Irish mercenaries to subdue their unruly subjects.

> When the culture of a conqueror is sufficiently different, and they 
> can get away with it, they always try to take the native language 
> away.  That takes away all the old songs and poetry, and most of the 
> stories, and makes it easier to stamp your own culture on a subjugated 
> people.

But this is mostly just laziness.  When Patrick didn't do what he
was told, I'm sure that his masters made no effort to learn his
language.  They just shouted at him louder in Gaelic.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Mon Sep  4 11:17:09 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:17:09 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>

>> But do remember that St Patrick 
>> wasn't Irish at all.  He was an English boy, stolen by Irish pirates
>> and sold into slavery in Ireland.

De-lurking briefly to correct this...

St Patrick was a Romano-Briton. There were no English in Britain at the
time he lauched his Irish mission. There was no English language, and
certainly no English identity. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes that make
up the English (an identity that only established itself when the
Franco-Norman ruling dynasty in England lost its territories in France)
were spread across Germany and Denmark at the time.

>> But this is mostly just laziness.  When Patrick didn't do what he
>> was told, I'm sure that his masters made no effort to learn his
>> language.  They just shouted at him louder in Gaelic.

Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language. The
Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a Californian
to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may even have
spoken Latin.

All the best

Tiarnan




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  4 16:42:06 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:42:06 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <39B40838.43AF6BC6@acmenet.net>
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 4:38 PM -0400 9/4/00, Steven Furlong wrote:
>Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>  "Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto,
>>  may consist in creating an artificial language together, and
>>  then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on.
>
>cf my remarks and questions on the use of Lojban for a personal log.
>Lojban is an artificial language with a user base of several hundred.
>I started a thread in mid-July. The consensus, from this list and some
>law-oriented newsgroups, is that you can't be forced to translate a
>journal written in a non-English language. Possibly you can't even be
>forced to identify the language it's written in.
>
>The matter of whether you can be forced to either decrypt encrypted
>files or to provide the key is more confused: I got approximately
>equal numbers of responses saying you can't be forced to decrypt and
>saying you can be so forced.
>
>I have not run either of those questions past lawyers that I've paid,
>so the responses may be worth no more than I paid for them.

And almost any attorney you would be able to hire would not have a 
clue on this issue. Possibly some world-class first and fifth 
amendment scholars would have a clue, possibly some EFF- or 
former-EFF lawyers, possibly some cyberlaw-clued folks, but not any 
lawyer you'd fine in a typical city in the phone book.

The specific issue of compelling a key has not yet been tested in a 
major court case. Mike Godwin wrote up some views on this some years 
ago (long enough ago that I quoted it in my 1994 "Cyphernomicon').

There are good reasons for the governments of the world (even 
Italy's, for our Italian friend who is insulted that we don't write 
enough about Italy) not to want to test the limits of the law: 
adhocracies like ambiguity.

And of course they're worried they might lose a high-visibility case 
involving crypto, so they don't push the issue.

Lastly, in most cases they don't need to try to compell disclosure of 
a key. They either have the records or can get them some other way, 
or they can rig the case some other way. Having a case depend on a 
particular encrypted record is unlikely, though it may be more common 
in the future.

What about the right to remain silent? How does the Fifth Amendment 
impinge on this issue?

A criminal defendant has the right to remain silent. He cannot be 
compelled to tell where evidence is located. He cannot be compelled 
to testify against himself. (BTW, don't even bother, anyone, to bring 
out the old chestnut of a person picking "I committed this crime" as 
his passphrase. Dealt with convincingly many years ago.)

Of more likely interest will be encrypted records in "discovery" 
cases. And in those cases a person is required to provide reasonable 
assistance, e.g., in helping the attorney of a spouse in determining 
where assets are located. Encryption would not even be an issue. The 
judge would simply order the records converted into readable form, on 
pain of contempt or, worse, on pain of a divorce settlement massively 
favoring the spouse.

(A nit: sometimes parties in a case try to overwhelm the other side 
with junk, as in shipping hundreds of boxes of documents to the other 
side. The IBM antitrust case, for example. This might be a good case 
to look at to see how and where the court compelled IBM to help in 
deciphering (English meaning, not crypto meaning) the hundreds of 
thousands of documents.)

--Tim May

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From roach_s at intplsrv.net  Mon Sep  4 18:47:56 2000
From: roach_s at intplsrv.net (Sean Roach)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:47:56 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20000904203034.00a96b20@mail.intplsrv.net>

At 01:24 PM 9/4/2000 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote:
...
>An interesting point:  There are ancient inscriptions in Wales
>that no one has been able to read in modern times.  Deciphering
>an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is
>written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that
>transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never
>been done.
>
>And, as language, doubtless it has regular structure, patterns,
>grammar, and the flexibility of use that people in everyday lives
>need in speaking - and presumably they're not even encrypted.
>
>"Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto,
>may consist in creating an artificial language together, and
>then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on.


That sound like the Navajo codetalkers.

I can see two easy problems with this.
A secret shared is no secret.  If even one person versed in the language 
were to side with the opposing front, all records written in that cypher 
would become open.
A new language would have to have new words for practically 
everything.  Any borrowed word would open the language up to analysis.  If 
you didn't get around to inventing a word for digital recording.  You had 
digital, but you forgot recording, then saying  recording in a 
sentance, would give someone a clue to grammatical 
structure.  Unfortunately, to get a sufficient vocabulary to be flexible, 
would require a larger population using the language.
If the language is sufficiently difficult to learn, it might be useful as a 
code but it would be hard to extend the population who could use it.

If I remember my history, which is not to say that I do, the Codetalkers 
method worked because there was a small population who knew the language 
already, none of them were acquired by the Japaneese, learning the language 
was difficult, (the missionary who suggested it had managed to learn it 
some, if memory serves), and the language had existed, and been used, 
enough to be sufficiently complex.
Still not complex enough.  They had to spell some things out, like placenames.


If just two people contrived it, then what they might have to say to one 
another might be secure, but would be limited to topics they had discussed 
in detail before, or related topics.

If a population of 1,000 spoke it with fluency, and had for several years, 
the language may be able to deal with just about any current concept or 
object, but the opposition would almost certainly have access to the 
language as well.

This would seem to limit the language to making disparaging comments about 
the person ahead of you at the checkout stand, confident that she didn't 
know what you were saying about him or her.  Or discussing the shoplifting 
of luxeries with your schoolmates, relatively confident that the store 
clerk wouldn't know what you were planning, or even that you might not be 
casually discussing last nights game.  Both examples I've suspected I might 
have witnessed.

Good luck,

Sean




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Sep  4 21:33:29 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 21:33:29 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: about this list, and a poor man's crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000904213329.008eb830@idiom.com>

At 04:06 PM 9/3/00, Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico wrote:
>I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why.
>1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world.

The standard way to fix problems like that is to post non-USA-centric
content :-)


>3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of:
>	-discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide
>	-"we hate pigs"
>	-US local laws discussions (see 1)
>	-simple fluff and/or flaming.

You're not the only one to complain about this.  (See answer 1.)
cryptography-request at c2.net will get you a moderated list that's broader
than coderpunks,
but narrower than cypherpunks, no spam, low flaming.



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bruble-admin at nym.alias.net  Mon Sep  4 14:41:24 2000
From: bruble-admin at nym.alias.net (Admin of Bruble Anonymous Remailer)
Date: 4 Sep 2000 21:41:24 -0000
Subject: CDR: Bruble2 is back
Message-ID: <20000904214124.6317.qmail@nym.alias.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi to all,

Bruble2 is now back and kicking. Queued mail processed

You can add capabilities string
$remailer{"bruble2"} =  "cpunk mix hybrid middle pgp pgponly latent ek ekx esub cut hash repgp remix ext max test inflt150 rhop5 klen1024";

Keys are unchanged and available from remailer.

Yours

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FGMtOqUv2z8s2WRM2ptOfHbt1kClxRNsMOgLLYqcdCQj29KAw3T7kQ==
=bCD5
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

~~~
This PGP signature only certifies the sender and date of the message.
It implies no approval from the administrators of nym.alias.net.
Date: Mon Sep  4 21:41:19 2000 GMT
From: bruble-admin at nym.alias.net

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBObQXA05NDhYLYPHNAQFcuQf+PnrKlVwJ8ycrDC5O3YSGyplSVyq3Np5w
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XcE0nqXGWCA90jn6UeMUl8KPF9EFC016gFlxq8/exqSXGGKRNdBijPj5Umm3aTPN
ApeVYY6ZJPE9xl06aajYOFTvytqc3afJz5QB+BF1cjbieqfDwWkBTlzMJog4V2bu
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lFhazroDa8szrUlxbq5byHOIpYiKCPFg67l+Q94iYst2WOa0/2IO2w==
=dVcc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From jdd at vbc.net  Mon Sep  4 13:45:24 2000
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 21:45:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000 ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:

> >> But do remember that St Patrick 
> >> wasn't Irish at all.  He was an English boy, stolen by Irish pirates
> >> and sold into slavery in Ireland.
> 
> De-lurking briefly to correct this...

Oooooo  Shows what happen when you post casually to the
cypherpunks list ;-)

You are right.  I should have said that he was a British lad.

> St Patrick was a Romano-Briton. There were no English in Britain at the
> time he lauched his Irish mission. There was no English language, and
> certainly no English identity. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes that make
> up the English (an identity that only established itself when the
> Franco-Norman ruling dynasty in England lost its territories in France)
> were spread across Germany and Denmark at the time.
> 
> >> But this is mostly just laziness.  When Patrick didn't do what he
> >> was told, I'm sure that his masters made no effort to learn his
> >> language.  They just shouted at him louder in Gaelic.
> 
> Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language. The
> Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a Californian
> to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may even have
> spoken Latin.

Several authorities, eg the Cathoic Encyclopedia, say that St Patrick
became fluent in the language of the Irish while in slavery.  Some
claim that he was born in Scotland, some say in Wales.  None support
your suggestion that the language of his masters was his native
tongue.  

The real point here is that the Irish, generally portrayed as 
victims of the British, were sometimes victims, sometimes villians --
like most everybody else.  

PS.  I am immensely fond of Ireland; me mother is Irish, in fact ;-)

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Mon Sep  4 14:13:08 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (Tiarnan O Corrain)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:13:08 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: ; from jdd@vbc.net on Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 21:45:24 +0100
References: 
Message-ID: <20000904221308.A2113@localhost.localdomain>


> > Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language. The
> > Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a Californian
> > to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may even have
> > spoken Latin.
> 
> Several authorities, eg the Cathoic Encyclopedia, say that St Patrick
> became fluent in the language of the Irish while in slavery.  Some
> claim that he was born in Scotland, some say in Wales. 

Both Scotland and Wales contained people who spoke Celtic languages. 
Although it is difficult to determine where Patrick is from, I believe the
scholarly working consensus is that he was from the Roman province of
Britannia, where the majority of the inhabitants would have spoken a
language of Celtic origin. Perhaps my analogy of New York and Californain
English was misleading: a truer example would be the relationship of
Spanish with Catalan, or Sicilian with Tyrolean. That's to say,
mutually intelligible, with difficulty. Traders and slave-traders
(such as the slaver who captured Patrick) would have traded with
the Roman Empire in Britain and elsewhere, so presumably a lingua
franca emerged. No doubt Patrick learned his powerful mastery of
Old Irish from his captors.

[If you want to read more on the subject, from sources more up-to-date
and historically accurate than the Catholic Encyclopedia, try
http://www.ucc.ie/~peritia for a jumping off point.]

> None support
> your suggestion that the language of his masters was his native
> tongue.  
> 
> The real point here is that the Irish, generally portrayed as 
> victims of the British, were sometimes victims, sometimes villians --
> like most everybody else.  

I don't deny it for a minute. I had a problem with the way you took the
currently existing region known as England and its current (troubled)
relations
with Ireland, and projected it back into a period of history where an
entirely different socio-political scene existed.

All the best

Tiarnan




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Mon Sep  4 23:20:00 2000
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:20:00 -0800 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: <200009050523.WAA25826@mail5.hushmail.com>

At 07:42 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Tim May wrote:
At 4:38 PM -0400 9/4/00, Steven Furlong wrote:
Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>There are good reasons for the governments of the world (even Italy's,
 for our Italian friend who is insulted that we don't write enough about 
Italy) not to want to test the limits of the law: adhocracies like ambiguity.

>What about the right to remain silent? How does the Fifth Amendment impinge 
on this issue?

>A criminal defendant has the right to remain silent. He cannot be compelled 
to tell where evidence is located. He cannot be compelled to testify against 
himself. 

Although this list is mainly focused on the social implications of crypto 
and privacy.  It has also been a frequent forum for libertarian ideals: 
like smaller government.  There can be no greater lever to reduce the size 
of government than "...to cut off its oxygen," that is revenue.  

One of the better examples of the intersection of the Fifth Amendment and 
taxes involves W4 and 1040 U.S. federal tax forms.  For many years legislators 
have publicly maintained that we have a nation of voluntary tax compliance. 
 (Yet woe onto those who decide not to volunteer.)  Widely accepted federal 
court rulings consider statements on these tax forms as testimony (not evidence) 
in a court of law.  Since under our Constitution one cannot be compelled 
to testify against himself it seems reasonable that one cannot be compelled 
to submit to endorsing either form.  Only one case I know of (Conklin vs. 
U.S.) has been adjudicated on this issue.  Conklin won but the case.  The 
federal court ruled that submission of tax forms was voluntary, but the 
ruling was suppressed by a legal procedure which allow courts to selectively 
deny its citing in subsequent cases.  Adhocracies like ambiguity

Napster has tapped into a broad reservoir of resentment and resistance to 
paying too much for music.  I believe all U.S. libertarians on the list 
should be considering how a high profile test case of the constitutionality 
of the U.S. federal tax system might tap into a similar disdain for taxation 
and achieve substantially more constraint of government encroachment on 
civil liberties than our valiant crypto coding efforts.

ks

From wrober20 at bellsouth.net  Mon Sep  4 22:58:25 2000
From: wrober20 at bellsouth.net (Sonny)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 22:58:25 -0700
Subject: CDR: 128-bit netscaoe v4 for bellsouth.net
Message-ID: <39B48B81.8D99E1F6@bellsouth.net>

hello I would like to know if Netscape communictor version 4.* is
available for bellsouth.net with 128-bit encryption. Pleas Email me




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Mon Sep  4 15:17:30 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:17:30 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: <200009042217.XAA02261@localhost.localdomain>



> There are ancient inscriptions in Wales  
> that no one has been able to read in modern times.  Deciphering 
> an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is 
> written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that 
> transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never 
> been done.

However, one cannot discount the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics
the Rosetta Stone. I imagine it would be extremely difficult to decipher a
language that very structurally different from what is known. It is interesting
to speculate about artificial grammars. Most human and computer languages (with interesting
exceptions, such as the Hopi Indians' concept of time -- others can describe computer exceptions) 
follow the verb, noun, preposition-based method of signification.
I don't know whether any work has been done on constructing a seriously
structurally different artificial grammar. Jorges Luis Borges has an interesting
riff on the idea. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the details.

> "Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto, 
> may consist in creating an artificial language together, and 
> then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on. 

As in thieves' cant. Or Irish. Speaking Irish was such a crime that schoolchildren
wore a 'tally-stick' around their necks. Each Irish word meant a notch on the stick.
A certain number of notches meant punishment, probably not gentle. Those who imposed this
system were Irish, not English.

In France, the Africans have an argot called verlins (an anagram of l'invers - the inverse)
where syllables within words are transposed, or words are spoken backwards. Not
very popular with the Corps Republican Securite.

All the best

Tiarnan




From emailingswork at postd.com  Mon Sep  4 20:48:08 2000
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From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Sep  4 20:55:16 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:55:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <20000904221308.A2113@localhost.localdomain>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904205210.008b4cc0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:18 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Tiarnan O Corrain wrote:
>Perhaps my analogy of New York and Californain
>English was misleading

The difference there is more in what and how they 
conceptualize, rather than being simply linguistic. 

:-) :-P









  








From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Sep  4 20:55:16 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:55:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904205313.008b6c70@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:34 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>I'm with him, actually, about list content.  I had hoped to find 
>tech discussions going on.  

There are tech discussions on this list regularly, mixed with
the sociopolitical rants and spam.  You are not paying attention.









  








From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Sep  4 20:55:16 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:55:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904205014.008b2380@pop.sprynet.com>

At 04:24 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>  Deciphering 
>an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is 
>written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that 
>transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never 
>been done.  

Don't the linguists typically rely on a major crib (e.g., the Rosetta stone)? 











  








From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Sep  4 22:17:54 2000
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 01:17:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000904205313.008b6c70@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, David Honig wrote:

> At 05:34 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >
> >I'm with him, actually, about list content.  I had hoped to find 
> >tech discussions going on.  
> 
> There are tech discussions on this list regularly, mixed with
> the sociopolitical rants and spam.  You are not paying attention.

Actually the spam is an experiment is stegonography.  (But only some of
them.)  How to tell the difference is left as an exercise for the reader.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep  5 01:58:37 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 01:58:37 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
In-Reply-To: <39B380C4.CA5BF2FA@ricardo.de>
References: 
  <39B380C4.CA5BF2FA@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 

>petro wrote:
>>          Of course, a *simple* substitution of one word (or even
>>  spaces) would make this *much* harder.
>>
>>          "Friends, Romulans, fellow countrymen, lend me your beers..."
>
>not likely. crack has been guessing simple substitutions for years.

	Crack has been guessing "simple" substitutions at the character level.

	It gets a bit unwieldy and time consuming when running brute 
force attack against a 50 or 60 character string.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   *******************************************
Today good taste is often erroneously rejected as old-fashioned
because ordinary man, seeking approval of his so-called personality,
prefers to follow the dictates of his own peculiar style rather than
submit to any objective criterion of taste.--Jan Tschichold




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Mon Sep  4 23:51:08 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 02:51:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Alan Olsen wrote:

> Actually the spam is an experiment is stegonography.  (But only some of
> them.)  How to tell the difference is left as an exercise for the reader.

ah, and let me guess -- we can tell which of us have extra computing power
in our basement by seeing who can tell the difference and who can't?






From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Mon Sep  4 23:03:29 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: 5 Sep 2000 06:03:29 -0000
Subject: CDR: C&W blocks Internet phone calls in the Caymans
Message-ID: 

http://www.totaltele.com/view.asp?ArticleID=30234&pub=tt&categoryid=626

Internet & E-commerce

C&W blocks Internet phone calls in the Caymans
By Rick Catlin, Reuters 24 August 2000 

Officials of communications giant Cable & Wireless , which has a monopoly
on the Cayman Islands, have begun blocking Internet subscribers on the
islands from using the U.S.-based Net2Phone long distance phone service
that charges a fraction of what C&W charges Cayman customers.

The move came after C&W sent an e-mail to its Internet subscribers
on the islands, a major financial centre, earlier this month advising
them they were breaking their contract with C&W by using the Internet
for phone services.

The Net2Phone system uses the Internet to make long distance calls,
by-passing the traditional telephone service and charging far less.

C&W spokesperson Tina Trumbach confirmed the blockage on Wednesday, adding
that any other similar system that can be detected will be blocked.

She noted that company officials last year indicated publicly they
would not be blocking Net2Phone at that time as long as usage
did not seriously affect C&W revenues.

Since then, the technology to block systems such as Net2Phone has become
available as C&W's long distance revenues have been declining and Net2Phone
usage has increased.

UK-based Cable & Wireless is one of the world's largest telecommunications
companies and in the Cayman Islands alone, the company generates more than
$50 million in net profits annually, according to government figures,
from a country of just 45,000 people.

C&W has an exclusive 25-year contract with the Cayman government signed in
1991 to be the sole provider of telecommunications service to the Cayman
Islands.
In return, C&W pays 6 percent of its gross revenues to the government
annually,
which two years ago amounted to about US$10 million.

Recently, the company has indicated a willingness to accept competition in a
"structured" and "regulated" environment.

Trumbach said the company will soon offer further price reductions on
Internet service to various business customers. But the company said
it could not sustain a trend of lowering prices if there were a
proliferation of "prohibited usage."

The Cayman Islands, a British colony of three islands in the
western Caribbean, have a population of about 45,000 and more than
40,000 registered companies, including nearly 600 banks and trusts
and nearly 500 captive insurance companies.

It has been estimated that about 2,000 C&W customers in the Cayman Islands
used Net2Phone or similar service. C&W could not confirm that number.

Businessman William Peguero, whose company was selling "YapJacks"
- the device that enables Internet telephone communication -
vowed to fight C&W in the courts. He said he has already obtained
more than 1,000 signatures on a petition
calling for an end to the C&W monopoly in the Cayman Islands and open
competition to lower rates.

"Jurisdictions including Jamaica, Bermuda, Hong Kong and others around
the world have ended the Cable & Wireless monopoly on telecommunications
through the introduction of competition," he said. "In each case,
the services offered are better and the pricing for those services
lowered for the citizens and businesses in those countries."

He also claimed C&W has no legal right to block access to any Internet
service.

The current C&W long-distance rate for a business hours call to
North America is $1.50 per minute. Peguero said he was able to
make calls on Net2Phone for about 13 cents per minute.

Net2Phone attorney Steve Dorry in New York said his company had no comment on
the matter "at this time."

He added, however, that the company would be addressing the legal issue
"in the proper forum" in the very near future.

Dorry said he expected similar action by C&W in other jurisdictions where it
operates as a monopoly, particularly in the English-speaking Caribbean.

Several years ago, when some Cayman Islands businesses bought in to a
call back system in the United States to provide long distance service
cheaper than normal C&W rates, the company was able to effectively
identify and block call back usage from specific telephones.







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep  5 05:27:52 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 07:27:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <39B4CE30.88CD789F@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Tom Vogt wrote:

> I'd like to have a few agenda items as "starters". you know, to avoid
> people sitting around, wondering "ok, I'm here - what now?". I'm fairly
> sure that once things get started, any attempt at planning will go out
> the window anyways.

European CDR nodes?

Update on HavenCo?


    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com  Tue Sep  5 06:58:29 2000
From: TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com (TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:58:29 EDT
Subject: CDR: de minimus non curat lex
Message-ID: 

    what does this mean????




From jburnes at savvis.net  Tue Sep  5 08:39:10 2000
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:39:10 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <00090510391002.23332@reality.eng.savvis.net>

On Mon, 04 Sep 2000, Jim Dixon wrote:
>>an invasion and the way the Saxons were treated; but the
> > Normans were just copying the Romans, and the Romans were just copying
> > the Greeks.
>
> It's easy to look at history in this way, seeing some people as
> villians and other as victims.  But do remember that St Patrick
> wasn't Irish at all.  He was an English boy, stolen by Irish pirates
> and sold into slavery in Ireland.  And for centuries English kings
> used Irish mercenaries to subdue their unruly subjects.
>

Actually, St. Patrick is mostly a mythical creature constructed
from the actual Roman ruling family Patricias.  The whole St. Patrick
chasing out the snakes is clearly a metaphor for the Roman church
killing off the pagans.

As is typical amonst the Roman church, the peasants, once suitably
under control are made to believe the destruction of the old way of
life was actually a blessing.  The Romans pushed this on them until
the old ways faded into the memory hole.




From jwlampe at netsecuregroup.net  Tue Sep  5 09:10:27 2000
From: jwlampe at netsecuregroup.net (f00dikator)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:10:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: RE: de minimus non curat lex
Message-ID: 

The small shall not drive a lexus :-)




From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Tue Sep  5 09:47:26 2000
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:47:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

The law does not care for trifles.
MacN

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com wrote:

>     what does this mean????
> 
> 




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep  5 09:23:59 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:23:59 -0400
Subject: CDR: export reg timewarp? (Re: RC4 source as a literate program)
Message-ID: <39B51ECC.7A663085@lsil.com>

> The US export regulations no longer prevent export of crypto.  PGP
> exported binary copies of PGP from US websites, as now do many other
> companies.  Crypto source is exported also from numerous web sites.
>
> I don't follow why all the discussion talking as if ITAR and EARs were
> still in effect in unmodified form.
> 
> Adam
> 
There is still the prior restraint of having to notify BXA when code is
posted.
 
And there is still the influence of the securty types over export
licensing.

Also there is the recent DeCSS nonsense. Linking is not speech?

So what is interesting to me is not so much crypto export regs as it is
when is something speech and when is it not. I'm pretty much at peace
with my own opinion that I can write and publish in electronic form
anything that I can on paper in any language I please and that nobody
has any business trying to control me. The different treatment of
electronic vs. paper publishing is still open even if the crypto regs
have been tweaked

Mike





From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 03:38:51 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:38:51 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
References: 
Message-ID: <39B4CD3B.614A2682@ricardo.de>

Ralf-Philipp Weinmann wrote:
> hmm.. we're still talking about hamburg here, right ? 

yes

> you're right in so
> far as since this is the first european cypherpunk meeting one can have
> absolutely no idea how many people will be showing. depending on how well
> announced the meeting is i'd guess > 50 people however (maybe the bay area
> people can give us a rough count on how much people are showing to an averge
> meeting there and we can try to extrapolate something from that - cultural
> difference nonwithstanding :)... there were physical meetings in non-west-coast
> places as well, dunno remember where however. the numbers for those should be
> a little bit more of a benchmark/pointer to us).

any hints welcome. I know I'd be shot on the spot if I make a suggestion
such as "here's a webpage, click the button if you want to come." :))

but at least a rough estimate would help.



> A cafe sounds like a good idea, we might try meeting at a mall, on a public
> place or somewhere else however.

that's why I'm looking for a place with outside tables. you can just
wander by and see the group, the crypto books, whatever.




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 03:42:56 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:42:56 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
References: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de> 
Message-ID: <39B4CE30.88CD789F@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
> First, good luck on your meeting.

thanks.


> * we in the Bay Area have had numerous informal gatherings at coffee
> shops, outdoor seating areas, other public areas (a la '2600"). And
> this is with an attendance sometimes reaching 50.
> 
> (Which, in my crotchety opinion, is too high. Attendance over about
> 20 tends to make the event a lecture rather than a gathering.)

yepp, this is a meeting, not a congress. :)


> * agendas are seldom needed. We got by in the first, and most
> interesting, few years of the Cypherpunks will little or no agenda in
> advance. We sat around a table or on the floor and we talked.
> Sometimes someone got up and went to a blackboard, if available, and
> drew pictures.

I'd like to have a few agenda items as "starters". you know, to avoid
people sitting around, wondering "ok, I'm here - what now?". I'm fairly
sure that once things get started, any attempt at planning will go out
the window anyways.



> * too much of a formal agenda tends to encourage "guest speakers,"
> which, in my view, is _not_ a good idea. Sometimes a notable guest
> speaker is a good idea, but usually the result is that someone not
> part of the culture talks about what his or her company or
> organization is doing...things which are readily discoverable from
> Web sources.

agree on that.



> * and don't be afraid to discuss politics and political implications
> of technologies. 

we won't - if nothing else, I'll be heavily discussing the DVD/CSS
problem.


> In conclusion, I encourage you to just "hang loose." ("lose sein")

"locker sein" :)

we will. (I hope)




From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Tue Sep  5 03:03:10 2000
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:03:10 +0300 (EET DST)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009042217.XAA02261@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000 ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:

>However, one cannot discount the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics
>the Rosetta Stone.

Or the Linear A ordeal.

>I imagine it would be extremely difficult to decipher a language that very
>structurally different from what is known.

Indeed. With Linear A, the connection to ancient Greek was what solved the
puzzle. OTOH, hieroglyphs and similar ideographic writing systems do have
some figurative characteristics which can help in their interpretation. Not
so with syllabary/alphabet based ones, in which you would prefer at least a
cursory understanding of the spoken form before going for an interpretation.

>It is interesting to speculate about artificial grammars. Most human and
>computer languages (with interesting exceptions, such as the Hopi Indians'
>concept of time -- others can describe computer exceptions) 

Such exceptions always arouse my curiosity. Any online sources?

>I don't know whether any work has been done on constructing a seriously
>structurally different artificial grammar. Jorges Luis Borges has an
>interesting riff on the idea. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the
>details.

Aye. Hit me.

Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From jeffersgary at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 11:28:15 2000
From: jeffersgary at hotmail.com (Gary Jeffers)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 13:28:15 CDT
Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program
Message-ID: 

Fellow Cypherpunks,

                     THE LAWYER GAMBIT

   I remember reading in old anti-IRS literature about a technique for
avoiding prosecutions. A client would tell a lawyer that he wanted to
do something and would ask if it were legal to do. The lawyer would
then give his opinion as to wheather it was legal or not. If the lawyer
said that it was legal and gave his opinion in writing, then the
client could proceed without out worry. The lawyer's opinion would stop
any criminal prosecution.

   I wonder if this would work with publishing crypt code. I think it
might put the lawyer at risk. If we had a lawyer who really thought
that publishing crypt code on the Internet was legal and wasn't afraid
of sticking his neck out then his published statement on the Internet
to this might open the floodgates of crypt code Internet posting for
Americans.

   Donald has stated that the law in this area is quite vague. I would
think even if the law prohibited it, then the law would be unconstitu-
tional and therefore null and void.

   Any thoughts on this?

Yours Truly,
Gary Jeffers

BEAT STATE!!!!

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From mikefreeman at hushmail.com  Tue Sep  5 10:59:18 2000
From: mikefreeman at hushmail.com (mikefreeman at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:59:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: another example of our second amendment rights at work
Message-ID: <200009051759.NAA17299@ufe036.disk.sterling.va.infi.net>

Please read this story on thestate.com,

http://www.thestate.com/local/docs/moteldeath01.htm





From insider at atomfilms.com  Tue Sep  5 14:36:35 2000
From: insider at atomfilms.com (Atom Insider)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:36:35 -0700
Subject: CDR: AtomFilms Insider Membership
Message-ID: <030143536210590ATOMWEB02@atomfilms.com>

Congratulations on becoming an Atom Insider! As an Insider, not only can
you thoroughly customize your entertainment experience, but you can
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From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Tue Sep  5 06:41:12 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:41:12 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
	(message from Sampo A Syreeni on Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:03:10 +0300 (EET
	DST))
References: 
Message-ID: <200009051341.OAA00779@localhost.localdomain>

> OTOH, hieroglyphs and similar ideographic writing systems do have
> some figurative characteristics which can help in their interpretation. Not
> so with syllabary/alphabet based ones, in which you would prefer at least a
> cursory understanding of the spoken form before going for an interpretation.

Chinese is interesting in this connexion. As far as I understand it, the
'language' is made up of different spoken forms, all of which are covered
by the same writing system, are mutually incomprehensible when spoken. I don't
know if there are other examples of this in human languages. Computer languages
do provide examples - treading on thin ice here in such company: one could
instance a piece of C code that is compiled for several different systems. In
this case, the machine code for each system would bear little relationship
to that for another system. I'll not go on in this vein, for fear of a pratfall.

>>It is interesting to speculate about artificial grammars. Most human and
>>computer languages (with interesting exceptions, such as the Hopi Indians'
>>concept of time -- others can describe computer exceptions) 

>Such exceptions always arouse my curiosity. Any online sources?

Don't know about online sources. As far as I remember, the Hopi used two
tenses, one to describe the present, the other to describe dream time,
taking in the past (memory regarded as a sort of dream, which Fraud would
have loved had he known about it), and the future, as well as any
loose ends involving magical or fabricated events, legendary time, etc.

>>I don't know whether any work has been done on constructing a seriously
>>structurally different artificial grammar. Jorges Luis Borges has an
>>interesting riff on the idea. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the
>>details.

"Tln, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius -- A reference to an imaginary country leads the author deeper into a 
different linguistical reality."
	  is how the story's described on http://www.themodernworld.com/borges

As far as I remember, the author discovers a reference to the country in an old and eccentric
printing of an encyclopedia. The language described in the story has no verbs or nouns, using
a compound form of both. To stray into another dangerous analogy with computer languages, one
*might* say that object-orientated languages, by encapsulating data and methods, do something
similar, but I'm not standing by this, because it's not my area of expertise. 


Noam Chomsky argues that the deep structures of languages are fundamentally similar: that the
difference between Chinese and Old Irish is a matter of vocabulary, rather than means of
signification.

All the best

Tiarnan




From news at bluecom.com  Tue Sep  5 05:55:08 2000
From: news at bluecom.com (news at bluecom.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:55:08 +0200
Subject: CDR: IT NEWS WEEKLY
Message-ID: <200009051408.HAA07847@toad.com>

 
IT.NEWS WEEKLY

September 5, 2000, NO. 14
 
Welcome again to IT.NEWS - BlueCom's weekly newsletter for all players in the international IT Channel - vendors, distributors, resellers, dealers and brokers. Read about the latest trends in the IT market, products, prices, partnerships, major companies and much more. 
 
-------------------------------------------------------
 
THIS ISSUE:

1. Intel Recall Its 1.13 GHz Pentium III Chip
2. Dream Team Sponsors Linux Lab
3. First Storage Product From IBM/Compaq Alliance
4. Sony to Spend USD 940 Million on Chip Plant
5. Hyundai Joins Anti-Rambus Legal Fight
6. Handheld Makers Foresee Christmas Shortage
 
-------------------------------------------------------
 
**************
SPONSOR MESSAGE
This week's TOP-7 CRAZY prices at BlueCom Danmark A/S 
Intel Etherexpress Pro 10/100 Mbit WOL   ONLY USD 35.50
Click here for the next 6 crazy prices http://www.bluecom.com/top7
************** 

1. Intel Recalls Its 1.13 GHz Pentium III Chip
Last week Intel Corp. recalled its 1.13 GHz Pentium III processor on the very day that archrival Advanced Micro Devices Inc. announced that more than 10 PC makers are to produce models using its 1.1 GHz Athlon processor. Intel stated that it was recalling its processor because a lab test had highlighted malfunctions when using certain kernels of the Linux operating systems. The problem apparently results from the higher heat produced by the faster processor and some portion of the Linux code. Analysts say that AMD now has a clear lead in processors, and that Intel launched the 1.13 GHz Pentium III before it was completely ready in an attempt to remain competitive. Intel has announced that it will take several months to correct the problem, which gives AMD more time to ramp up its 1.1 GHz shipments. In the coming months AMD will introduce Athlon chips with even higher speed grains, aiming for 1.5 GHz in the first quarter.
Source: CNet News and Electronic Buyers News.

2. Dream Team Sponsors Linux Lab
Computing heavyweights IBM, NEC, Intel, Dell Computer and Hewlett Packard are joining with Linux companies to coax the operating system into high-end, multiprocessor machines, the companies announced last week. The computing powerhouses are joining forces to create a laboratory where open-source programmers can improve the performance of Linux and associated software on these expensive servers. The new Open-Source Development Laboratories, due to receive multi-million dollar funding annually from the companies participating, will provide a way for independent programmers to push Linux into this high-prestige domain.
Source: CNet News
 
3. First Storage Product From IBM/Compaq Alliance 
The first open storage product of the IBM and Compaq alliance has been announced as the Modular Storage Server. The alliance was made public on 6th July. Since then, IBM has undertaken full training of its storage sales force and storage networking architects, plus many of its business partners. Customers will now be able to deploy open storage networking solutions using both IBM and Compaq products. IBM has also announced the availability of 36 gigabyte 10,000 RPM disk drives for its "Shark" Enterprise Storage Server, which can result in a performance improvement of up to 30 percent. It also introduced the IBM FastT200 Storage Server, the industry leading entry level server for the NT marketplace, featuring two one gigabit per second Fibre Channel connections. The Modular Storage Server will be available on 29th September and the FastT200 will be available on the 12th September. 
Source: IBM

4. Sony to Spend USD 940 Million on Chip Plant
Sony stated last week that it will spend more than US$940 million over the next five years on a new plant to produce microchips used in mobile phones, digital cameras and other devices, as the company attempts to increase production of such goods. Sony will begin construction in November in the Kumamoto district on Japan's southern island of Kyushu. The factory is scheduled to begin production in October 2001.
Source: Sony

5. Hyundai Joins Anti-Rambus Legal Fight
The company says its lawsuit is a pre-emptive strike against Rambus's pressure to license its synchronous technology. At stake is the validity of the patents protecting the technology for memory ICs, microprocessors, and core-logic chipsets - and therefore who gets to control the industry's future. Similarly, Hyundai has joined Micron Technology in a separate effort to invalidate patents held by memory intellectual property designer Rambus.
Source: TechWeb
 
6. Handheld Makers Foresee Christmas Shortage
Palm, Handspring, Sony and other makers of handheld computers will have trouble filling orders for rhe Christmas period because of the ongoing parts shortage, according to executives and analysts. "We're in backlog on literally every single product in the line," Palm chief competitive officer Michael Mace said. "Today the thing holding us back is our ability to procure parts. That is by far the biggest barrier to further growth by Palm".  
Supplies are short, in part because of a scarcity of components such as liquid crystal displays, colour screens and flash-memory chips. Palm and the other handheld computer makers use many of the same components as cell phone makers and game console makers. More people are buying such devices and can sometimes afford to upgrade to newer products each year as prices drop, further straining supplies, said Rob Enderle, an analyst with technology market researcher Giga Information Group. Because electronic organizers have become more popular than expected, the shortages could persist through 2001 and threaten the widespread acceptance of the devices. 
Source: CNet News



**************
SPONSOR MESSAGE
This week's TOP-7 CRAZY prices at BlueCom Danmark A/S 
Intel Etherexpress Pro 10/100 Mbit WOL   ONLY USD 35.50
Click here for the next 6 crazy prices http://www.bluecom.com/top7
************** 
 
Please click here to unsubscribe to this newsletter http://www.bluecom.com/unsubscribe


 
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From bf at mindspring.com  Tue Sep  5 12:07:57 2000
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:07:57 -0400
Subject: CDR: Spread misinfo, got to jail? 
Message-ID: <39B54485.BD38F50C@mindspring.com>

Friday September 1 6:42 PM ET
          Bloomberg, Internet Wire Sued Over
          Emulex

          By Nicole Volpe

          NEW YORK (Reuters) - A Florida investor has filed a lawsuit
          against Internet Wire and Bloomberg LP over a false press
          release that led to a nosedive in the shares of Emulex Corp.
          (NasdaqNM:EMLX - news) last week in one of the biggest
          Web-based financial hoaxes ever, attorneys said on Friday.

          The suit, filed on behalf of retiree Ron Hart and which seeks
          class action status, accuses the two organizations of
allegedly
          ``recklessly disseminating materially false and misleading
          information,'' Hartford, Conn.-based law firm Schatz & Nobel
          said in a statement. Hart lost as much as $15,000 as a result
of
          the hoax, said Schatz partner Andrew Schatz.

          Both Internet Wire, a company announcement distribution
          service, and Bloomberg, a financial information and news
          company, declined to comment on the suit, which was filed in
          the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York.

          ``We have not been served so we do not have a comment until
          we are,'' said Internet Wire spokeswoman Amy Orebaugh on
          Friday.

          Bloomberg spokeswoman Chris Taylor said that as of early
          Friday morning it had not been served a lawsuit and said the
          company does not comment on ongoing litigation.

          A false press release issued via Internet Wire and picked up
by
          Bloomberg, Dow Jones and some other news organizations
          caused the data networking equipment maker's stock to fall
          more than 50 percent last Friday. Reuters did not carry the
          hoax. The release said that the company was under
investigation
          by the Securities and Exchange Commission, was about to
          restate its earnings and that its chief executive had quit.

          On Thursday, a 23-year-old college student was arrested and
          charged with the hoax and pocketing almost $250,000 from
          subsequent trading of Emulex stock.

          The ``plaintiff seeks to recover damages on behalf of all
          investors who sold Emulex stock or call options or purchased
          put options on August 25, 2000 before the resumption of
trading
          at 1:30 p.m. EST,'' Schatz & Nobel said in a statement.

          Schatz said other investors had contacted him and he expected
          that some of them would join in the suit.

          Hart had about 500 Emulex shares and sold them at about $80
          each in the middle of the share price plunge, which reversed
as
          soon as the hoax was revealed, said Andrew Schatz. The
          company's shares, which fell to $48-1/16 on August 25 before
          trading was suspended, have since recovered to close at
107-1/2
          on Friday.





From jdd at vbc.net  Tue Sep  5 07:16:13 2000
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:16:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009051341.OAA00779@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:

> > OTOH, hieroglyphs and similar ideographic writing systems do have
> > some figurative characteristics which can help in their interpretation. Not
> > so with syllabary/alphabet based ones, in which you would prefer at least a
> > cursory understanding of the spoken form before going for an interpretation.
> 
> Chinese is interesting in this connexion. As far as I understand it, the
> 'language' is made up of different spoken forms, all of which are covered
> by the same writing system, are mutually incomprehensible when spoken. I don't
> know if there are other examples of this in human languages. Computer languages

There are a number of languages normally called Chinese that use the
same characters.  They are more or less mutually comprehensible when
written but not when spoken.  (Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien, Fukien, 
etc)  It takes some self-discipline to write Chinese that can be
understood by speakers of other dialects.

Vietnamese used to fall into this category before the French took over;
they now use a phonetic alphabet, the usual alphabet used by 
European languages with additional marks that make it phonetic.

Japanese, Korean, and possibly others use a mixture of the Chinese
characters and phonetic symbols.  In Japanese at least the phonetic
symbols form two syllabaries.  A syllabary is like an alphabet, but
instead of representing sounds a symbol represents a syllable.  So 
the Japanese syllabaries begin "kah, kee, koo, kay, koh, ..." 

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Tue Sep  5 12:23:26 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:23:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Gary Jeffers wrote:

> then give his opinion as to wheather it was legal or not. If the lawyer
> said that it was legal and gave his opinion in writing, then the
> client could proceed without out worry. The lawyer's opinion would stop
> any criminal prosecution.

Does this really work? I can't imagine this working for murder (but on the
other hand, that's  a bad example since it's unreasonable to imagine
murder legal in the USA). Even for something like tax laws or other
complicated regulations this sounds dubious. 

 
>    I wonder if this would work with publishing crypt code. I think it
> might put the lawyer at risk. If we had a lawyer who really thought

Well, a lawyer who advised a client that something was legal when in fact
it wasn't might have a problem. 

> that publishing crypt code on the Internet was legal and wasn't afraid
> of sticking his neck out then his published statement on the Internet
> to this might open the floodgates of crypt code Internet posting for
> Americans.

Such a statement would help, but more because it would be from an expert
on the law than because of any legal shield. I am not a lawyer, and so I'd
like to have one's opinion before doing anything that could land me in
jail. That kind of thing.

> 
>    Donald has stated that the law in this area is quite vague. I would
> think even if the law prohibited it, then the law would be unconstitu-
> tional and therefore null and void.
> 

Prohibiting what - publishing cryptography code?
In any case, even if the law is unconstitutional, you may have to go
through several layers of court cases to prove it. c.f. Bernstein. :(

-David




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep  5 15:25:06 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:25:06 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: 

ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:

> It's very easy, from a post-religious
> perspective, to be nostalgic about paganism, since we understand almost
> nothing of it. Neo-pagan movements are generally comic, not in their
> internal ideas, but in the notion that they are somehow recapturing 
> an old religion, a religion without scriptures or documents or a 
> continuous tradition.


   Humph, said the camel... indeed!

   Nonsense, says religionmonger. You obviously haven't researched the
pagan world to much depth. Druids, for instance, have a strong, clear
line going way back, as do Wiccans. Because of persecution by the 
God-damned church, they spent a long time underground, but there's never
been a time when they weren't active and working. *You* understand 
nothing of it, and never will unless you could somehow convince some
group to initiate you, which is unlikely. 
  Scriptures and documents, dear one, play no part in earth and goddess 
centered religions. Shamans, for instance, are called personally by their
spirits, taught by the same, etc., and it's all very much a personalized 
experience. Experiential religions have no need of scripture -- that's the
bailiwick of the later, false, paternalistic, religions of the dominator
cultures.  




From news at bluecom.com  Tue Sep  5 06:29:49 2000
From: news at bluecom.com (news at bluecom.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:29:49 +0200
Subject: CDR: IT NEWS WEEKLY
Message-ID: <200009051743.KAA12650@toad.com>

 
IT.NEWS WEEKLY

September 5, 2000, NO. 14
 
Welcome again to IT.NEWS - BlueCom's weekly newsletter for all players in the international IT Channel - vendors, distributors, resellers, dealers and brokers. Read about the latest trends in the IT market, products, prices, partnerships, major companies and much more. 
 
-------------------------------------------------------
 
THIS ISSUE:

1. Intel Recall Its 1.13 GHz Pentium III Chip
2. Dream Team Sponsors Linux Lab
3. First Storage Product From IBM/Compaq Alliance
4. Sony to Spend USD 940 Million on Chip Plant
5. Hyundai Joins Anti-Rambus Legal Fight
6. Handheld Makers Foresee Christmas Shortage
 
-------------------------------------------------------
 
**************
SPONSOR MESSAGE
This week's TOP-7 CRAZY prices at BlueCom Danmark A/S 
Intel Etherexpress Pro 10/100 Mbit WOL   ONLY USD 35.50
Click here for the next 6 crazy prices http://www.bluecom.com/top7
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1. Intel Recalls Its 1.13 GHz Pentium III Chip
Last week Intel Corp. recalled its 1.13 GHz Pentium III processor on the very day that archrival Advanced Micro Devices Inc. announced that more than 10 PC makers are to produce models using its 1.1 GHz Athlon processor. Intel stated that it was recalling its processor because a lab test had highlighted malfunctions when using certain kernels of the Linux operating systems. The problem apparently results from the higher heat produced by the faster processor and some portion of the Linux code. Analysts say that AMD now has a clear lead in processors, and that Intel launched the 1.13 GHz Pentium III before it was completely ready in an attempt to remain competitive. Intel has announced that it will take several months to correct the problem, which gives AMD more time to ramp up its 1.1 GHz shipments. In the coming months AMD will introduce Athlon chips with even higher speed grains, aiming for 1.5 GHz in the first quarter.
Source: CNet News and Electronic Buyers News.

2. Dream Team Sponsors Linux Lab
Computing heavyweights IBM, NEC, Intel, Dell Computer and Hewlett Packard are joining with Linux companies to coax the operating system into high-end, multiprocessor machines, the companies announced last week. The computing powerhouses are joining forces to create a laboratory where open-source programmers can improve the performance of Linux and associated software on these expensive servers. The new Open-Source Development Laboratories, due to receive multi-million dollar funding annually from the companies participating, will provide a way for independent programmers to push Linux into this high-prestige domain.
Source: CNet News
 
3. First Storage Product From IBM/Compaq Alliance 
The first open storage product of the IBM and Compaq alliance has been announced as the Modular Storage Server. The alliance was made public on 6th July. Since then, IBM has undertaken full training of its storage sales force and storage networking architects, plus many of its business partners. Customers will now be able to deploy open storage networking solutions using both IBM and Compaq products. IBM has also announced the availability of 36 gigabyte 10,000 RPM disk drives for its "Shark" Enterprise Storage Server, which can result in a performance improvement of up to 30 percent. It also introduced the IBM FastT200 Storage Server, the industry leading entry level server for the NT marketplace, featuring two one gigabit per second Fibre Channel connections. The Modular Storage Server will be available on 29th September and the FastT200 will be available on the 12th September. 
Source: IBM

4. Sony to Spend USD 940 Million on Chip Plant
Sony stated last week that it will spend more than US$940 million over the next five years on a new plant to produce microchips used in mobile phones, digital cameras and other devices, as the company attempts to increase production of such goods. Sony will begin construction in November in the Kumamoto district on Japan's southern island of Kyushu. The factory is scheduled to begin production in October 2001.
Source: Sony

5. Hyundai Joins Anti-Rambus Legal Fight
The company says its lawsuit is a pre-emptive strike against Rambus's pressure to license its synchronous technology. At stake is the validity of the patents protecting the technology for memory ICs, microprocessors, and core-logic chipsets - and therefore who gets to control the industry's future. Similarly, Hyundai has joined Micron Technology in a separate effort to invalidate patents held by memory intellectual property designer Rambus.
Source: TechWeb
 
6. Handheld Makers Foresee Christmas Shortage
Palm, Handspring, Sony and other makers of handheld computers will have trouble filling orders for rhe Christmas period because of the ongoing parts shortage, according to executives and analysts. "We're in backlog on literally every single product in the line," Palm chief competitive officer Michael Mace said. "Today the thing holding us back is our ability to procure parts. That is by far the biggest barrier to further growth by Palm".  
Supplies are short, in part because of a scarcity of components such as liquid crystal displays, colour screens and flash-memory chips. Palm and the other handheld computer makers use many of the same components as cell phone makers and game console makers. More people are buying such devices and can sometimes afford to upgrade to newer products each year as prices drop, further straining supplies, said Rob Enderle, an analyst with technology market researcher Giga Information Group. Because electronic organizers have become more popular than expected, the shortages could persist through 2001 and threaten the widespread acceptance of the devices. 
Source: CNet News



**************
SPONSOR MESSAGE
This week's TOP-7 CRAZY prices at BlueCom Danmark A/S 
Intel Etherexpress Pro 10/100 Mbit WOL   ONLY USD 35.50
Click here for the next 6 crazy prices http://www.bluecom.com/top7
************** 
 
Please click here to unsubscribe to this newsletter http://www.bluecom.com/unsubscribe


 
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From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 06:35:00 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:35:00 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
References: 
	  <39B380C4.CA5BF2FA@ricardo.de> 
Message-ID: <39B4F684.E12BF62@ricardo.de>

petro wrote:
> >>          Of course, a *simple* substitution of one word (or even
> >>  spaces) would make this *much* harder.
> >>
> >>          "Friends, Romulans, fellow countrymen, lend me your beers..."
> >
> >not likely. crack has been guessing simple substitutions for years.
> 
>         Crack has been guessing "simple" substitutions at the character level.

your point? it's trivial to change the rules from "try replacing o with
0 (zero)" to using a phonetics dictionary on a whole word. pattern
matching is likewise so trivial that I've used it in online games for
nothing more important than fixing typos of players.


>         It gets a bit unwieldy and time consuming when running brute
> force attack against a 50 or 60 character string.

yes, but you *still* reduce the key space by several orders of
magnitude, or rather: reorder it in your favor (I assume that when you
failed with all substitions, you'll go "real" brute force, skipping what
you already tried).




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 06:40:27 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:40:27 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
References: 
Message-ID: <39B4F7CB.A661B872@ricardo.de>

Jim Choate wrote:
> > I'd like to have a few agenda items as "starters". you know, to avoid
> > people sitting around, wondering "ok, I'm here - what now?". I'm fairly
> > sure that once things get started, any attempt at planning will go out
> > the window anyways.
> 
> European CDR nodes?
> 
> Update on HavenCo?

if anyone can say anything on those topics - very welcome.




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 06:42:12 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:42:12 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
References: <20000905123535.500A46C4C5@suburbia.net>
Message-ID: <39B4F834.BC04F8EB@ricardo.de>

Julian Assange wrote:
> 
> > that's why I'm looking for a place with outside tables. you can just
> > wander by and see the group, the crypto books, whatever.
> 
> The leather. The babes. The machisimo.

ok, who's bringing the babes? :))




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep  5 13:49:56 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:49:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Black Rock, Nev
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000905131515.008c47b0@pop.sprynet.com>



Black Rock, Nev (Routers)
Air Force spokeswoman Jane Denning apologized for
the accidental detonation of a fuel-air munition
above the "Burning Man" campgrounds, blaming the
error on outdated National Imagery and Mapping Agency
maps that showed the area as part of an active nearby bombing
range.  Bureau of Land Management rangers on the scene
said there were no survivors.

Department of Justice spokesman Louis Slaveh said that
although there will be no compensation from the government,
officials are taking steps to see that this doesn't happen
again.   A DEA official on the scene commented "We should have
thought of this earlier."









  








From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  5 16:50:42 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:50:42 -0700
Subject: CDR: U.S. Justice Department, Leading Technology Association Launch
  Web Site...
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000905165037.0210f5a0@mail.well.com>



>Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:27:04 -0400 (EDT)
>From: mds at mds.prwire.com
>To: mds at mds02.prwire.com
>Reply-To: mds at mds02.prwire.com, news at prwire.com
>X-JID: 602169
>Subject: U.S. Justice Department, Leading Technology Association Launch 
>Web Site...
>
>
>
>    U.S. Justice Department, Leading Technology Association Launch Web Site
>                   To Teach Children Responsible Computer Use
>
>               Offers Parents, Educators Back-To-School Tools To
>                         Teach Kids About Online Ethics
>
>     ARLINGTON, Va., Sept. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- As America's children go back to
>school, The Cybercitizen Partnership, a joint effort by the U.S. Department of
>Justice and the Information Technology Association of America Foundation
>(ITAA), the nation's leading technology association, today launched a new Web
>site for parents and educators designed to teach kids the right ways to use
>the Internet.
>     The new Web site -- http://www.cybercitizenship.org -- represents a major
>national effort to provide teachers, parents and their children with a new
>learning tool -- responsible computer use.  The Web site is initially focused
>on providing support for parents, and will expand to assist teachers and
>appeal to kids.
>     "Young people are growing up in a society where the Internet is 
> central to
>everything from commerce to recreation," said U.S. Attorney General Janet
>Reno.  "Unfortunately, criminal activity exists online just as it does on the
>streets.  As children learn basic rules about right and wrong in the off-line
>world, they must also learn about acceptable behavior on the Internet."
>     "This is a first-of-its kind government/private sector initiative to help
>kids realize that the rules of the road in the off-line world also apply in
>the online world," said ITAA President Harris N. Miller.  "As the Internet
>becomes more important to our daily lives, this initiative will help kids make
>informed decisions about online behavior."
>     The Cybercitizen Partnership was formed last year to focus national
>attention on cyber social behavior and the importance of teaching young
>computer users to recognize that, in addition to protecting themselves from
>the more unsavory and potentially dangerous behavior found in parts of the
>Internet, they must understand that, when online, they are responsible for
>their own actions and that these actions have consequences both for themselves
>and others.  The same standards of ethics expected in the off-line world must
>be applied to the online world.  The Web site will provide parents with
>several tools including:
>
>     *  Teachable Moments:  Tips to help parents use real-life events, news
>stories and examples to help them talk to their kids about the
>responsibilities they must accept when using the Internet;
>
>     *  Links:  Relevant sites to connect parents to other programs and
>organizations offering helpful information;
>
>     *  Logo:  A kid-friendly character, created specifically for The
>Cybercitizen Partnership, that reminds young computer users to "Surf Like A
>Hero, Not A Zero"
>
>     *  Current Events: Useful news coverage on cyber ethics and cyber crimes
>and a calendar of events for educational programs;
>
>     *  White Paper:  A situation analysis and call-to-action addressing the
>need to educate children about responsible cyber social behavior;
>
>     *  Ask The Experts:  A list of experts on cyber ethics, who will be
>available to respond to email inquiries from visitors to the site.
>
>     "Now that students have rapidly increasing access to the Internet at
>school and at home, the key is to excite them while teaching them the right
>way to use the new medium," said Van B. Honeycutt, president and CEO of
>Computer Sciences Corporation and chairman of The Cybercitizen Partnership.
>"Our children represent the future technology workforce, which is why it's so
>important for industry to play a major role in helping kids learn responsible
>cyber behavior."
>     The Web site will evolve and eventually include:  a directory of
>educational initiatives across the country dedicated to integrating messages
>about responsible cyber social behavior; new links to valuable Web sites; and
>interactive tools for parents and teachers on cyber ethics.
>     Announced in March of 1999 by the U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno, The
>Cybercitizen Partnership serves as an umbrella organization to identify cyber
>social behavior initiatives and to help create a movement to address legal and
>ethical issues online.  Current supporters of the program include: Computer
>Sciences Corporation (www.csc.com ); Oracle (www.oracle.com );
>www.onehealthbank.com ; MERANT (www.merant.com ); Mirus Information Systems
>(www.mirusinfo.com ); Stanford Consulting Group, Cyveillance, Inc., iDefense
>(www.idefense.com ), the Recording Industry Association of America
>(www.RIAA.com ) and BITS, the Technology Group for the Financial Services
>sector (www.bankersround.org ).
>
>     About ITAA
>     The Information Technology Association of America (ITAA) provides global
>public policy, business networking, and national leadership to promote the
>continued rapid growth of the IT industry.  ITAA consists of 400 direct and
>26,000 affiliate corporate members throughout the U.S., and a global network
>of 41 countries' IT associations.  The Association plays the leading role in
>issues of IT industry concern including information security, taxes and
>finance policy, digital intellectual property protection, telecommunications
>competition, workforce and education, immigration, online privacy and consumer
>protection, government IT procurement, human resources and e-commerce policy.
>ITAA members range from the smallest IT start-ups to industry leaders in the
>Internet, software, IT services, ASP, digital content, systems integration,
>telecommunications, and enterprise solution fields.  For more information
>visit www.itaa.org .
>
>SOURCE  Information Technology Association of America
>     -0-                             09/05/2000
>     /CONTACT:  Bob Cohen of Information Technology Association of America,
>703-284-5301, bcohen at itaa.org; Elissa Lumley of Fleishman-Hillard,
>202-828-8845, lumleye at fleishman.com, for Information Technology Association of
>America; or Chris Watney of U.S. Justice Department, 202-514-2007,
>chris.j.watney at usdoj.gov/
>     /Web sites:  http://www.cybercitizenship.org
>                  http://www.itaa.org/




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep  5 14:52:58 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:52:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com wrote:

>     what does this mean????
> 

You need a Latin dictionary...

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep  5 15:05:59 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:05:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Gary Jeffers wrote:

> said that it was legal and gave his opinion in writing, then the
> client could proceed without out worry. The lawyer's opinion would stop
> any criminal prosecution.

That's never been true, if only prosecutors were that gullible.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Sep  5 17:38:32 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 17:38:32 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
References: 
Message-ID: <39B59208.DB335A0F@sunder.net>

Sampo A Syreeni wrote:
> 
> >For myself, I often use as pass phrases memorized phrases from
> >literature. Which ones? Well, I read four languages, and I do the
> >number/letter and symbol/letter substitutions, so I feel secure even
> >revealing that clue.
> 
> Good for you. Most people never go to even that much trouble. But I still
> think that dictionary searches on, say, all consequtive subsequences of
> 6-200 characters in the top 100 most likely to have been read books of a

I tend to just string up lots of characters, so my passphrases look like this:

 ^#.;Odfi9 at 7f$}'~%42w0,m:Qe_|33+\  and so on.

How do you memorize this?  You break it up in chunks, memorize each chunk, then link them together.  And then you type it in a lot
of times the first few days you use it.  It's not that hard.  If you don't use it on a daily basis, the danger is in forgetting it.

Yep, most people would have a coronary before accepting the above as a passphrase.  Fuck'em.  They deserve the security they're
willing to provide themselves.

Passphrases from books are nice, but if they're all text, they're a hell of a lot easier to brute than the above.  Especially if you
have the texts in electronic form.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep  5 11:00:09 2000
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: 5 Sep 2000 18:00:09 -0000
Subject: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
Message-ID: <20000905180009.22147.qmail@nym.alias.net>

Ray Dillinger writes:
> In the interest of making  some news if you don't like the news 
> you're getting, I present -- the Country Mile Cipher.  Algorithm 
> details available (for now) on 
>
>         http://www.sonic.net/~bear/crypto/countrymile.html
>
> This is a stream cipher based on the Blum-Blum-Shub pseuodo-
> random number generator -- and on work done more recently by 
> Ronald Rivest, who "digitally sealed" a message that he expects 
> to take 30 years of continuous computing to unscramble. 

Your idea is to take BBS as a stream cipher, use a value based on a
secret short key as a starting point, and then cycle it potentially a
whole lot, millions or billions of cycles or more, before beginning to
cipher the message with it.

Using the idea of Rivest et all you can cycle BBS forward arbitrarily
far in a limited amount of work, if you know the modulus factors.  So
you can encrypt with little work, while making the decryptor do an
arbitrary amount of work even if he knows the key.

You've combined the idea of time lock crypto with an encryption function.

It's not clear these two ideas go all that well together, like the SNL
product that was both a floor wax and a dessert topping.  Usually you
either want to encrypt, in which case you want to make it easy to decrypt
for the guy who knows the key, or you want to time-lock, in which case
you want to control how hard it will be to find the key.  There don't
seem to be that many cases where you want to allow decryption but only
if you both know the key and are willing to put in a lot of time.

Even if you did want to do that, you could just use Rivest's time lock
to hide a key which then gets combined with your short key to produce
the actual key to the message.

Along these lines your own idea could be simplified; don't encipher the
whole message using BBS, just encipher a block-cipher key and use 3DES
or similar to encipher the message.

You might also want to take a look at the paper by Dan Boneh and
Moni Naor from Crypto 2000,
http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/abstracts/timedcommit.html.

They have a similar idea but came up with an application for it in fair
contract signing (where one party should not end up with the signature on
a contract unless the other party does too).  For their application they
need to be able to encrypt a message such that it can only be decrypted
with a specified large amount of work.  However they must be able to
reveal the encrypted message and prove that the decryption was accurate,
using a small amount of work.  This could be done in your scheme simply
by revealing the modulus factors (the "long key") but they want to reuse
the modulus so they use some fancy zero knowledge proofs.




From billp at nmol.com  Tue Sep  5 17:57:05 2000
From: billp at nmol.com (billp at nmol.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 18:57:05 -0600
Subject: CDR: jerry boutelle
Message-ID: <39B59661.6A4D5598@nmol.com>

http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/load2.htm

We are moving ahead.

Keep up-wind.




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 10:03:23 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:03:23 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
References:  <200009051341.OAA00779@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <39B5275B.590ED4F3@ricardo.de>

ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:
> Chinese is interesting in this connexion. As far as I understand it, the
> 'language' is made up of different spoken forms, all of which are covered
> by the same writing system, are mutually incomprehensible when spoken. I don't
> know if there are other examples of this in human languages. 

there are similiar examples, mostly with ancient languages - if they
still exist (roman/italian or ancient/modern greek/hebrew) they are
often virtually identical in written form, but very different when
spoken.
of course, there's also the question of how much we really know about
the ancient pronounciation.

> >Such exceptions always arouse my curiosity. Any online sources?
> 
> Don't know about online sources. As far as I remember, the Hopi used two
> tenses, one to describe the present, the other to describe dream time,
> taking in the past (memory regarded as a sort of dream, which Fraud would
> have loved had he known about it), and the future, as well as any
> loose ends involving magical or fabricated events, legendary time, etc.

the most interesting point about the hopi grammar is, that it takes the
observer into the picture. AFAIK, there can be no confusion in hopi
about whether something happened to you, or you imagined it happening,
or you saw it happening to someone else, or someone else saw it
happening to a third person. in english these are all 
"he killed (me, for real)"
"he killed (me, in my dream)"
"he killed (someone else)"
"he killed (fred told me)"




From reeza at flex.com  Tue Sep  5 22:05:50 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:05:50 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000905190439.00cf1390@flex.com>

At 04:52 PM 05/09/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com wrote:
 >
 >>     what does this mean????
 >
 >You need a Latin dictionary...

Loosely translated, it means that cypherpunks are important people,
and you shouldn't bother us with such trifling things.




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Tue Sep  5 11:06:37 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:06:37 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: <200009051806.TAA01062@localhost.localdomain>

------- Start of forwarded message -------

>Actually, St. Patrick is mostly a mythical creature constructed
>from the actual Roman ruling family Patricias.

Humph, said the camel...

If so, did this 'actual Roman ruling family' author the works attributed
(with scholarly acuuracy) to Patrick?

More likely Patrick came from a romano-british family, probably an
aristrocratic one. Many british chieftain families would have
arrogated to themselves the name 'patrician', which was no more
than a descriptive term for the gentes maiores in Rome, the Valerii,
Claudii, Fabii and so on. A bit like the second names 'King' and
'Knight'.

> The whole St. Patrick
>chasing out the snakes is clearly a metaphor for the Roman church
>killing off the pagans.

>As is typical amonst the Roman church, the peasants, once suitably
>under control are made to believe the destruction of the old way of
>life was actually a blessing.  The Romans pushed this on them until
>the old ways faded into the memory hole.

First off, the Church as it existed then was not the 'Roman church'. This
was before the schisms and the rise of Islam, when the Christian Church was 
administered from distributed nodes (the Patriarchates of Byzantium, Antioch, Jerusalem,
Alexandria and Rome).

Secondly, your assertion about the meaning of Patrick and the snakes is dubious. I
agree it is evidently a myth, but would posit a more likely source
in paganism. Many Irish gods and godesses survived well into the
Christian era (some even to this day) as 'saints' of the Church. While
Patrick was a historical figure, the scribes may well have thought
his career too dull for one of such fame, and decided to conflate
several already existing myths, and add them to the story. A common
practice in Hollywood these days -- a recent example is Braveheart,
where the military innovations of Robert the Bruce (a Norman, just like
the French-speaking Edward I, which is not mentioned) were ascribed
to the medieval feminist, democratic new man William Wallace. Hagiographies
are propaganda aimed at the time in which they are written.

[Off topic completely here, but I read that for the last years of his
life, Stalin's only reading was his own official biography... falling
in love with the myth of himself, or taken in by his own deceit?]

Thirdly, Patrick's conversion of the Irish was not a conquest. Nor was
the conversion of much of Europe. It's very easy, from a post-religious
perspective, to be nostalgic about paganism, since we understand almost
nothing of it. Neo-pagan movements are generally comic, not in their
internal ideas, but in the notion that they are somehow recapturing 
an old religion, a religion without scriptures or documents or a 
continuous tradition.

All the best

Tiarnan




From bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au  Tue Sep  5 16:28:01 2000
From: bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au (BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:28:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
In-Reply-To:  from "Sampo A Syreeni" at Sep 04, 2000 03:07:05 AM
Message-ID: <200009052327.e85NRpN12078@octarine.itsc.adfa.edu.au>

> 
> On Sat, 2 Sep 2000, BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES wrote:
> 
> >A human can easily remember 26 random letters from a 32 character 
> >alphabet with a little mnemonic method (eg map each character to a 
> >word so that it makes up some sort of dumb story). 5*26==130 which
> >is more bits than computers can currently exhaust over.
> 
> True, especially if you salt with a suitably long random number and combine
> the two with a sufficiently nasty serial computation.
> 
> Most of this thread does not, despite the strong wordings, actually 
> concentrate on what average people *can* do but what they are likely to do
> when they do not have any real reason/incentive to guard their privacy.

Sure, probably 70% or more of real apss phrases are crackable, but that's
not strictly the fault of the software. It doesn't really matter either, 
if they &really& have no "reason/incentive to guard their privacy".

Tim





From bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au  Tue Sep  5 16:31:24 2000
From: bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au (BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:31:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans
In-Reply-To: <968073477.39b3a1059f443@webmail.cotse.com> from "brflgnk@cotse.com" at Sep 04, 2000 09:20:53 AM
Message-ID: <200009052330.e85NUu012861@octarine.itsc.adfa.edu.au>

Well to do coke-heads had been "freebasing" the alkaloid (free base)
for years before crack was invented. Crack just made the same thing
available in small quantities to the (black) masses and a panic
ensued.

Tim

> 
> Said by Sampo Syreeni :
> 
> -- begin quote --
> >Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes
> >that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at
> >once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular"
> >powder.
> 
> 'Freebasing' wasn't it? Cook in high pH to release the free alcaloid form
> from the salt. What I do not remember is the precise reason for the high
> permeability - water solubility?
> -- end quote --
> 
> I don't think so.  The hydrochloride form (regular "powder") is water-soluble, 
> but the free alkaloid is fat-soluble.  That's why it's smoked instead of 
> snorted.  But the process not only converts the cocaine, it also loses any 
> dilution material ("cut").  So the final dose is, for all practical purposes, 
> pure cocaine that needs no additional conversion in the bloodstream.  It might 
> not be permeability that's responsible for the different effect.  Could be a 
> simple matter of delivering a higher quantity of ready-to-permeate material.
> 
> 





From success at prof.com  Tue Sep  5 19:40:11 2000
From: success at prof.com (success at prof.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:40:11
Subject: CDR: Read Only If Serious About A Six Figure Income...
Message-ID: <394.856526.714801@server>

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From mikefreeman at hushmail.com  Tue Sep  5 12:24:38 2000
From: mikefreeman at hushmail.com (mikefreeman at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:24:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: CDR: ZDNet UK News: Mathematics experts promise encryption boost
Message-ID: <200009051924.UAA05018@www2.zdnet.co.uk>

This ZDNET UK News story has been forwarded to you by mikefreeman at hushmail.com
who has added these comments:
Has anybody here looked at the algorithim? If so what are your thoughts? 

Mathematics experts promise encryption boost

Thu, 31 Aug 2000 15:02:03 GMT  Will Knight

With the government's snooping bill looming, experts devise ways of
making Net communications more secure

A technique that promises to make advanced encryption more secure has
been developed by mathematics experts at France's National Institute
for Research in Computer Science and Control (INRIA).

Robert Harley, a graduate student at INRIA and one of the researchers
behind the new technique, says the new method will make "elliptic
curve" cryptography less vulnerable to attack. Elliptic curve
cryptography is a mathematical method for generating keys that are
commonly used to secure email messages and Internet connections.
Elliptic curve cryptography is more difficult to solve than older
techniques but it takes time to calculate the curves in the first
place.

Harley has created an algorithm that makes it much easier to generate
individual elliptic curves, which can be used to generate unique user
keys for securing individual messages.

"Most people who use elliptic curve cryptography stick with one curve.
Within academic circles this is seen as slightly dangerous. It like
putting all your eggs in one basket," says Harley.

Harley's algorithm, which is based on theoretical work of Japanese
mathematician Takakazu Satoh of Saitama University, makes it possible
to calculate a curve with far less computing power than is
conventionally required. The time taken for a common calculation is
reduced from days to a matter of hours.

The new technique is likely to have an impact on commercial
applications cryptography. Harley says that US software company
Encrsoft is already hoping to incorporate his technique into its
encrypted instant messaging application Top Secret Messenger. Entrust
has also expressed an interested in the technique. The approach may
also be used to make SSL (Secure Socket Layer) encryption, which is
used to send transactions and communications over HTTP Internet
connections more secure. Researchers at Sun and Standford University
are developing SSL solutions based on Harley's research.

They can see you... Read about how and why in Surveillance
(http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/specials/1999/09/surveillance/), a ZDNet
News Special

What do you think? Tell the Mailroom (mailroomuk at zd.com). And read
(http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/mailroom.html) what others have said.


If you found this ZDNN news report valuable, why not sign up for the 
free daily ZDNN News Alert - and we'll email you our top five headlines 
every day.
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/misc/newsletters/news.html

ZDNet News: The UK's best source for computing news - updated throughout the day.
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/



Please report any abuse of this service to ukwebmaster at zd.com




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep  5 17:26:34 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:26:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: <200009052355.UAA27827@poseidon.inf.ufsc.br>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000905172423.008b37c0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 08:00 PM 9/5/00 -0400, Augusto Jun Devegili wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I was just wondering... In DES, there's an Initial 
>Permutation (IP) on the plaintext, then 16 rounds, and 
>then the inverse permutation (IP^-1) of the result to 
>produce the ciphertext.
>
>How effective are these permutations? Do they really 
>add diffusion to the algorithm, considering that they 
>don't depend on the key?
>
>Someone told me that they are necessary to provide 
>reversibility to DES. Is this correct?

You are correct.  

They are needed to perform DES as spec'd in the FIPS, so just
for interoperability you've gotta keep them.

When you do 3DES you can combine them.

These permutations cost only wires in hardware, but take cycles on a CPU.
This is one of the reasons that DES is inefficient in software.














  








From devegili at inf.ufsc.br  Tue Sep  5 16:55:50 2000
From: devegili at inf.ufsc.br (Augusto Jun Devegili)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:55:50 -0300
Subject: CDR: Permutations in DES
Message-ID: <200009052355.UAA27827@poseidon.inf.ufsc.br>

Hi all,

I was just wondering... In DES, there's an Initial 
Permutation (IP) on the plaintext, then 16 rounds, and 
then the inverse permutation (IP^-1) of the result to 
produce the ciphertext.

How effective are these permutations? Do they really 
add diffusion to the algorithm, considering that they 
don't depend on the key?

Someone told me that they are necessary to provide 
reversibility to DES. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance,
Best Regards,

Devegili




From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Tue Sep  5 18:05:27 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:05:27 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: TIGGGGERMOM@aol.com's message of "Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:03:37 -0400"
References: 
Message-ID: <84snre49g5.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com writes:

>     what does this mean????

The law cares not for the small [things].





From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Tue Sep  5 18:13:24 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:13:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: 128-bit netscaoe v4 for bellsouth.net
In-Reply-To: Sonny's message of "Tue, 5 Sep 2000 07:25:36 -0400"
References: <39B48B81.8D99E1F6@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <84og22492h.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Sonny  writes:

> hello I would like to know if Netscape communictor version 4.* is
> available for bellsouth.net with 128-bit encryption. Pleas Email me

Is there a message hidden in these messages of blithe idiocy, possibly
hidden in the typos? Maybe revealable by some odd algorithm run
against a grammatically-correct version of the message?





From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Sep  5 21:34:07 2000
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:34:07 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000905212328.0267a770@shell11.ba.best.com>

     --
 > > When Patrick didn't do what he was told, I'm sure that his masters
 > > made no effort to learn his language.  They just shouted at him
 > > louder in Gaelic.

At 07:17 PM 9/4/2000 +0100, ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:
 > Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language.The
 > Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a
 > Californian to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may
 > even have spoken Latin.

  The upper echelons of Irish society did not speak Latin, and the 
inhabitants of England at that time did not speak Gaelic.  Ireland had 
never been conquered by the Romans.  Latin had long since ceased to be the 
language of civilization, and had become merely the language of 
conquerors.  Irish literature at the time was vigorous and thriving, while 
secular Roman literature at the time was non-existent.  The nearest thing 
to literate and readable works produced in Latin at that time were 
evangelical texts created Christian proselytizers.   The greatest 
literature of that era was Augustine's "confessions", which gives you an 
indication of how low the Roman civilization had sunk.   At that time 
people learnt latin only because their masters shouted at them in latin, 
not because there was anything interesting to read or hear.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      jLpeTtmZcxp+K3zt6NovjkMT3+D13j0NLuDiBYZp
      4NDsFXixvkrTO78zJc30/1dE3TfFaF7VPUGFyfBdz




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Sep  5 21:49:07 2000
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:49:07 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009051806.TAA01062@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000905214630.023c6f00@shell11.ba.best.com>

     --
At 07:06 PM 9/5/2000 +0100, ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:
 > More likely Patrick came from a romano-british family, probably an
 > aristrocratic one. Many british chieftain families would have
 > arrogated to themselves the name 'patrician',

If he came from an aristocratic family, he would have been ransomed.   He 
was not.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      M2lRDrJo619sFvJFOQgoW6cEQbs3k944ID47xCCJ
      4FxnTtpHrAs1b2TRzUaTo6aOQiBq1NEwnvEGKg324




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep  5 20:23:40 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:23:40 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009052355.AAA00710@localhost.localdomain>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000905201001.008c4660@pop.sprynet.com>

At 08:34 PM 9/5/00 -0400, ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:
> Coming from a
>country where Druids at least existed in historical times, I can
>tell you that the evidence suggests that Druids existed as lawmakers
>and counsellors. Their true heirs are in the lawcourts and in politics.
>Disappointing, no?

So, um, how do Druids feel about peer to peer file sharing :-)









  








From proff at suburbia.net  Tue Sep  5 05:35:35 2000
From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:35:35 +1100 (EST)
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <39B4CD3B.614A2682@ricardo.de> "from Tom Vogt at Sep 5, 2000 12:38:51
 pm"
Message-ID: <20000905123535.500A46C4C5@suburbia.net>

> that's why I'm looking for a place with outside tables. you can just
> wander by and see the group, the crypto books, whatever.

The leather. The babes. The machisimo.




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Tue Sep  5 16:55:49 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:55:49 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
	(juicy@melontraffickers.com)
References: 
Message-ID: <200009052355.AAA00710@localhost.localdomain>


>Nonsense, says religionmonger. You obviously haven't researched the
>pagan world to much depth. 

I don't know if I'd call what you refer to below research. Fantasy would
be closer to the mark.

>Druids, for instance, have a strong, clear
>line going way back, as do Wiccans. Because of persecution by the 
>God-damned church, they spent a long time underground, but there's never
>been a time when they weren't active and working.

I was under the impression we were talking about the era around 500AD,
before the Inquisition, and not long after the Christians themselves
were persecuted. I'm no skypilot, but the implied timelines you associate
with Wiccans and Druids (of the modern sort) are, to say the least,
somewhat confused.

>You understand 
>nothing of it, and never will unless you could somehow convince some
>group to initiate you, which is unlikely. 

It's even more unlikely I would seek such an initiation. 

>Experiential religions have no need of scripture -- that's the
>bailiwick of the later, false, paternalistic, religions of the dominator
>cultures.

Into which scumble of badness you would no doubt throw Hinduism, Buddhism,
Taoism and the philosophies thereof? Whereas your religion is based on
handing down knowledge (without records or a literate culture) from
mother to daughter. A mirror image of the apostolic succession, amusingly.
I'll quote from Joyce's Ulysses:
     The cords of all link back, strandentwining cable of all flesh. That is
     why mystic monks. Will you be as gods? Gaze into your omphalos. Hello.
     Kinch here. Put me on to Edenville. Aleph, alpha: nought, nought, one. (p46)

Does that sound like what you're on about? Guess what it's about.

To turn centuries of folk knowledge persecuted by those who did not
understand (not just priests, you know, peasants burnt their own out
of fear as well) into a religion with a continuous link to pre-Christian,
even pre-historical times, is an interesting hypothesis. It would take
some proving, rather than a random spew about 'false' and 'paternalistic'
, and especially 'later' religions. Coming from a
country where Druids at least existed in historical times, I can
tell you that the evidence suggests that Druids existed as lawmakers
and counsellors. Their true heirs are in the lawcourts and in politics.
Disappointing, no?

All the best

Tiarnan  




From ryan at havenco.com  Tue Sep  5 18:01:40 2000
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 02:01:40 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <39B4CE30.88CD789F@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <20000906020140.A7533@vex.havenco.com>

> update on HavenCo

I'll probably be showing up to the meeting, provided it is held someplace
interesting (Amsterdam, London, Berlin, Copenhagen are interesting; Osnabrueck
is NOT.)  I've started attending London 2600 whenever I'm in London,
and might go to a CCC event if I pick up some more German between now
and then.

I can bring some cool toys (legal in Europe) for people to play with, too.

If you get any UK attendees, they'll probably want to talk about RIP,
which is a mind-crushingly boring topic.  I think an update on
publius/freenet/mojo/etc. would be quite interesting, however.

-- 
Ryan Lackey			ryan at havenco.com
Chief Technical Officer 	+44 (0)7970 633 277 (mobile)
HavenCo, Ltd. 			http://www.havenco.com/
1024D/4096g B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Tue Sep  5 22:32:50 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: 6 Sep 2000 05:32:50 -0000
Subject: CDR: NSA Outsourcing administrative operations
Message-ID: 

NSA IS ON A GROUNDBREAKING MISSION - [The Washington Post, F15.]  
Sometime next spring, according to the plan, as many as 1,000 employees
of the National Security Agency in Fort Meade will begin exchanging their
government dog tags for new IDs from AT&T, Computer Sciences or other
technology contractors chosen to handle the NSA's conventional
telecommunications and computer needs.  The transfer would open a major
new chapter in federal outsourcing: the turnover of full responsibility
for an entire agency's "noncritical" telephone, Web and desktop
computing operations to outside contractors, says Ray Bjorklund,
vice president of Federal Sources.  The fact that the client is the
super-secretive NSA, whose headquarters was once dubbed 
"the Taj Mahal of eavesdropping," makes the move even more groundbreaking
(although the transfer won't include NSA's code-breaking and other
intelligence work).  Indeed, the project's code name is Groundbreaker. 
It's expected to be worth at least $2 billion for the winning contracting
team over the next decade, industry officials say. 
The figure could grow to $5 billion if the mission is expanded. 
NSA has chosen three teams to compete for the Groundbreaker contract,
most of them among the region's biggest IT contractors. 
Leading the teams are AT&T's federal division, Computer Sciences and OAO. 
AT&T and CSC are among the nation's half-dozen largest federal IT
contractors, with more than $1 billion in annual contracts. 
OAO had $137 million in federal IT work last year, according to
Washington Technology magazine.







From Michael_Heyman at NAI.com  Wed Sep  6 06:40:09 2000
From: Michael_Heyman at NAI.com (Heyman, Michael)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 06:40:09 -0700
Subject: linux-ipsec: RSA released
Message-ID: 

In case you don't already know:

>From 

BEDFORD, Mass., September 6, 2000 -- RSA� Security Inc. (NASDAQ: RSAS) today
announced it has released the RSA public key encryption algorithm into the
public domain, allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their own
implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has waived its
rights to enforce the patent for any development activities that include the
RSA algorithm occurring after September 6, 2000.

-Michael Heyman

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From pcw at flyzone.com  Wed Sep  6 05:09:02 2000
From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:09:02 -0400
Subject: CDR: US stole Codebreaking Limelight from Britain in WWII?
Message-ID: 


According to the Daily Telegraph, the US took most of the credit for 
breaking Japanese codes during WWII. The paper says that Bletchley 
Park deserves more credit according to recently declassified papers. 
Only traditional British reticence kept them from claiming credit 
before.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003413427358635&rtmo=aq54aK9J&atmo=rrrrrrvs&pg=/et/00/9/6/ncode06.html

Of course, the British also stood on the shoulders of the Polish.....

-Peter

-- 
--------------------------
Tune to http://www.wayner.org/books/ffa/  for information on my book 
on Free Software.




From marcel at aiurea.com  Wed Sep  6 06:06:18 2000
From: marcel at aiurea.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:06:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
References:  <39B59208.DB335A0F@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <00ca01c01803$9f2dc7c0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>



From whgiii at openpgp.net  Wed Sep  6 07:18:24 2000
From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:18:24 -0500
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two weeks e arly. [cpunk]
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200009061418.KAA09028@domains.invweb.net>

In , on 09/06/00 
   at 08:10 AM, "Trei, Peter"  said:

>RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III      http://www.openpgp.net  
Geiger Consulting    

Data Security & Cryptology Consulting
Programming, Networking, Analysis
 
PGP for OS/2:               http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
E-Secure:                   http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep  6 09:36:32 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:36:32 -0700
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two
  weeks early. [cpunk]
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>

When will we see the first RSAREF-compatible public-domain code?

At 10:10 AM 9/6/00 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
>Wednesday September 6, 8:03 am Eastern Time
>
>Press Release
>
>SOURCE: RSA Security Inc.
>
>RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain
>
>'c = m(e) mod n' Made Available Two Weeks Early
>
>BEDFORD, Mass., Sept. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- RSA® Security
>Inc. (Nasdaq: RSAS - news) today announced it has released the
>RSA public key encryption algorithm into the public domain,
>allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their own
>implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has
>waived its rights to enforce the patent for any development
>activities that include the RSA algorithm occurring after
>September 6, 2000.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From codewhacker at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 07:47:50 2000
From: codewhacker at yahoo.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:47:50 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: linux-ipsec: RSA released
Message-ID: <000c01c01811$6fcadb90$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>

>In case you don't already know:
>
>>From 
>
>BEDFORD, Mass., September 6, 2000 -- RSA® Security Inc. (NASDAQ: RSAS)
today
>announced it has released the RSA public key encryption algorithm into the
>public domain, allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their
own
>implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has waived
its
>rights to enforce the patent for any development activities that include
the
>RSA algorithm occurring after September 6, 2000.

Looks to me like they just didn't want to let the parties go on as
scheduled.



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Sep  6 07:10:49 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:10:49 -0400 
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two weeks e
	arly. [cpunk]
Message-ID: 

Wednesday September 6, 8:03 am Eastern Time

Press Release

SOURCE: RSA Security Inc.

RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain

'c = m(e) mod n' Made Available Two Weeks Early

BEDFORD, Mass., Sept. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- RSA® Security
Inc. (Nasdaq: RSAS - news) today announced it has released the
RSA public key encryption algorithm into the public domain,
allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their own
implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has
waived its rights to enforce the patent for any development
activities that include the RSA algorithm occurring after
September 6, 2000.

Represented by the equation "c = m(e) mod n," the RSA algorithm
is widely considered the standard for encryption and the core
technology that secures the vast majority of the e-business
conducted on the Internet. The U.S. patent for the RSA algorithm
(#4,405,829, "Cryptographic Communications System And Method")
was issued to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) on
September 20, 1983, licensed exclusively to RSA Security and
expires on September 20, 2000.

"So much misinformation has been spread recently regarding the
expiration of the RSA algorithm patent that we wanted to create
an opportunity to state the facts," said Art Coviello, chief
executive officer of RSA Security. "RSA Security's
commercialization of the RSA patent helped create an entire
industry of highly secure, interoperable products that are the
foundation of the worldwide online economy.  Releasing the RSA
algorithm into the public domain now is a symbolic next step in
the evolution of this market, as we believe it will cement the
position of RSA encryption as the standard in all categories of
wired and wireless applications and devices. RSA Security intends
to continue to offer the world's premier implementation of the
RSA algorithm and all other relevant encryption technologies in
our RSA BSAFE® software solutions and we remain confident in
our leadership in the encryption market."

For nearly two decades, more than 800 companies spanning a range
of global industries have turned to RSA Security as a trusted,
strategic partner that can provide the proven, time-tested
encryption implementations and resources designed to speed time
to market. These companies, including nearly 200 so far in 2000,
rely on RSA BSAFE® security software for its encryption
implementation and value-added services for a broad range of B2B,
B2C and wireless applications.

During the past 17 years, RSA Security has incorporated the
concepts represented by the RSA algorithm into its RSA BSAFE
cryptographic software. The company has made continuous
enhancements to the way the algorithm has been implemented,
including a number of performance improvements and optimizations,
not reflected in the original patent, for a wide range of
software applications, operating systems and chip designs. RSA
Security also is an industry leader in developing standards on
the robust application of encryption technologies for solving
real-world problems. These core standards, known as the Public
Key Cryptography Standards (PKCS), form the underpinnings of
today's most widely used communication methods.

In recent years, encryption technology has taken on an entirely
new level of importance in the world of business and consumer
technology, and RSA Security continues to be a leader in the
industry. Once the province of a small group of technologists and
mathematicians, new developments have raised the profile of
encryption among a broad range of audiences. Moving forward,
electronic signature legislation, export regulation and the
pending selection of the Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) all
will contribute significantly to encryption playing a key role in
the further expansion of e-commerce initiatives for B2B, B2C and
extended enterprise applications.

For more information regarding the RSA algorithm and a free RSA
algorithm t-shirt, visit www.rsasecurity.com/total-solution.

About RSA Security Inc.

RSA Security Inc., The Most Trusted Name in e-Security(TM), helps
organizations build secure, trusted foundations for e-business
through its RSA SecurID® two-factor authentication, RSA BSAFE
encryption and RSA Keon® public key management systems. With
more than a half billion RSA BSAFE-enabled applications in use
worldwide, more than seven million RSA SecurID users and almost
20 years of industry experience, RSA Security has the proven
leadership and innovative technology to address the changing
security needs of e-business and bring trust to the new, online
economy. RSA Security can be reached at www.rsasecurity.com.

NOTE: This press release contains forward-looking statements
relating to the role of the RSA algorithm encryption and the
expansion of e-commerce. Such statements involve a number of
risks and uncertainties. Among the important factors that could
cause actual results to differ materially from those indicated by
such forward-looking statements are delays in product
development, technical difficulties, software bugs and errors,
competitive pressures, changes in customer and market
requirements and standards, market acceptance of new
technologies, technological changes in the computer industry,
general economic conditions and the risk factors detailed from
time to time in RSA Security's periodic reports and registration
statements filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission,
including without limitation RSA Security's Annual Report on Form
10-K filed on March 15, 2000 and its Quarterly Report on Form
10-Q filed on August 14, 2000.

RSA, BSAFE, Keon and SecurID are registered trademarks, and The
Most Trusted Name in e-Security is a trademark of RSA Security
Inc.  All other products and services mentioned are trademarks of
their respective companies.

SOURCE: RSA Security Inc.




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep  6 07:18:54 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:18:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: linux-ipsec: RSA released
Message-ID: 


--- begin forwarded text



From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep  6 07:27:53 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:27:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>



	
Germany Reportedly Plans 'Internet
     Tax' 

     BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany is planning to slap new
     levies on computer, telecommunications and Internet
     products to ensure that authors are properly rewarded for
     the use of their work, a newspaper said Wednesday.

     The Berliner Zeitung said proposals had been drafted requiring
manufacturers of
     goods from computers to printers, modems, compact disc ``burners'' and
other
     devices to pay royalty fees that would then be forwarded to music and
film
     companies.

     Officials at the Justice Ministry, which it said was behind the move,
were not
     immediately available for comment.

     The new tax would particularly intend to ensure that the authors of
cultural products
     available on the Internet were properly rewarded.

     Similar levies already exist in Germany on devices whose main function
is that of
     copying, such as scanners, photocopiers and fax machines. Depending on
the power
     of the machine involved, the taxes range from $30-$275.

     The levies are paid by manufacturers to firms that specialize in
collecting royalties
     on so-called ``intellectual property.'' They then pass these fees on
to clients such as
     authors, music, film or software companies.

     Hardware companies say extending the taxes to computers and telecom
equipment
     like modems could make them up to 30 percent more expensive.

     Because the taxes are only payable when the products are bought in
Germany, there
     have been warnings they could lead hi-tech firms to flee the country
and sell through
     mail order and other channels from abroad. 








  








From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep  6 01:28:46 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 10:28:46 +0200
Subject: CDR: Europe Physical Meeting - Update
Message-ID: <39B6003E.2351492E@ricardo.de>


I'd like to move the date to one day later, Saturday the 30th September
2000. several people have remarked that a friday is difficult for those
who can't take a day off at work or whatever.

also, I think we will have enough interesting people with topics, so
there will surely be no boredom.

I'm continuing my search for a place to meet now, with a few rough
guidelines to the number of people. from mails here and in private I
judge that at least 10 people will surely attend, and possibly up to 50.
I'll look for a place that will be comfortable for 10-50 people. so if
you plan to fly in two dozen cypherpunks from somewhere, please give me
a notice. :)

that's also true for anyone who needs help with travel arrangements or a
place to stay for a night or two. send a mail either to me or to the
list.




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep  6 07:46:45 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:46:45 -0400
Subject: CDR: new brit spybook simmering
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906074436.008b6a30@pop.sprynet.com>


Those brits really need a 1st amendment...
(and the _SUN_ needs to buy a clue about physical security)
..good hype for Random House though..


http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12986507

                           WEDNESDAY, 06 SEPTEMBER, 2000



                   SUN PUTS SPY
                   SECRETS UNDER
                   LOCK AND KEY


                    Details ... Dame Stella Rimington 

                   EXCLUSIVE


                   By JOHN KAY 

                   THE Sun has been handed a copy of a
                   red-hot book of spy secrets written by
                   the former head of MI5. 

                   The manuscript by Dame Stella
                   Rimington is now being vetted by
                   security chiefs to decide if it can be
                   published in ANY form. 

                   Many of them want to ban A Life Of
                   Surprises because it is packed with
                   detail about Dame Stella's career -
                   especially her four years as MI5 boss.

                   We spent weeks checking the facts in
                   the book to establish it was not a
                   hoax. The manuscript is safely locked
                   in The Sun's safe. 

                   Then we contacted Downing Street
                   chiefs to arrange for the red-hot
                   document to be collected. 

                   We decided it was not in the national
                   interest to reveal any of the book's
                   more sensitive contents. 

                   But we CAN disclose that it touches
                   on such matters as spy provisions in
                   the Cold War, the ultra-secret SAS
                   and terrorism. 


                   Top secret ... we decided it was not
                    in national interest to reveal any
                               details 

                   It also includes references to the
                   left-wing Militant Tendency and the
                   Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. 

                   The book - which is packed with
                   detail about Dame Stella's 29-year
                   career in the secret service - came
                   into our hands anonymously. 

                   And one theory was that a
                   disgruntled spook at MI5's rival
                   organisation MI6 arranged for the
                   copy to be delivered to us in a bid to
                   sabotage publication. 

                   The Sun exclusively revealed last May
                   that 65-year-old Dame Stella - given
                   her title in the 1996 New Year's
                   Honours - had written her memoirs. 

                   She submitted a draft to the
                   Government seeking official approval
                   to publish, which has not yet been
                   granted. 

                   But the serving heads of MI5 and
                   MI6, Stephen Lander and Richard
                   Dearlove, together with Cabinet
                   Secretary Sir Richard Wilson, all
                   wanted the book banned. 

                   Some senior MI6 officers were so
                   outraged they demanded to have
                   Dame Stella arrested under the
                   Official Secrets Act. 


                      Safe as houses ... we locked
                      book up amid tight security 

                   Home Secretary Jack Straw fears a
                   ban could be challenged under the
                   new human rights act which becomes
                   law next month. 

                   Mother-of-two Dame Stella, who
                   retired from the #90,000-a-year job in
                   1996, has already been offered a
                   #500,000 advance by publishers
                   Random House. 

                   And it is believed she could earn up
                   to #1million through worldwide sales
                   and serialisations. 

                   But in a postscript, Dame Stella says:
                   "As I write this in January 2000,
                   nearly four years on, I don't know if
                   what I have written will ever be
                   published. 

                   "I have not yet told my former
                   colleagues that I am writing it, and
                   when I do, and when they see what I
                   have written, there may be such a
                   furore that it will never see the light
                   of day. 

                   "I hope it does because I think the
                   story it tells is an important
                   counterbalance to the scandals and
                   revelations that have been too much
                   the currency of writing on British
                   intelligence." 

                   She adds: "So if anyone ever reads
                   this, I hope you enjoy it." 


                      Honour ... MI5's first woman
                    boss being made a Dame in 1996 

                   The book describes the casual way in
                   which she was recruited while
                   working as a civil servant in India -
                   when the resident MI5 agent
                   whispered in her ear: "Pst, do you
                   want to be a spy?" 

                   It discloses how she rapidly worked
                   her way up the ladder in a profession
                   dominated by men. 

                   The book is dotted with humorous
                   anecdotes including her dealings with
                   ex-PMs Maggie Thatcher and John
                   Major. 

                   There is also much detail about the
                   "methodology" of MI5 - especially
                   over counter-espionage and the war
                   against the IRA. 

                   Dame Stella, who is immensely proud
                   to have been Britain's first female
                   spymaster, claims credit for
                   overseeing a large increase in the
                   number of women spooks. 

                   Security chiefs want to stop
                   publication because they fear
                   information being given to Britain's
                   enemies - and to avoid being accused
                   of double standards. 

                   The Government went to great
                   lengths to try to ban the Spycatcher
                   memoirs of former MI5 bugging
                   expert Peter Wright. 

                   Ex-MI5 officer David Shayler has
                   returned to Britain to face charges
                   under the Official Secrets Act for
                   writing about the secret service. 

                   And ex-MI6 officer Richard Tomlinson
                   was jailed for trying to publish his
                   autobiography. 


                      Shock ... Sun story last May 

                   A senior government security source
                   said: "This is what is so appalling. It
                   is not so much the content, it is the
                   principle of her writing it which is all
                   so wrong. 

                   "She should just keep quiet and enjoy
                   her sizeable pension and income from
                   directorships. 

                   "By writing her book she is only
                   encouraging other spies to start
                   penning their own memoirs." Copies
                   of the manuscript are understood to
                   have been circulated to MI5, MI6,
                   Special Branch, senior civil servants
                   and government ministers. 

                   Another security source said: "The
                   book does contain sensitive
                   information but there is no question
                   of Dame Stella naming any of our
                   agents. The biggest fear is that it will
                   open the floodgates." 

                   Leading security expert Chris Dobson,
                   who has written 15 books on spies
                   and terrorists, said: "I congratulate
                   The Sun for acting in a highly
                   responsible manner. 

                   "It is essential that this book never
                   sees the light of the day." 

                   Snoop doggy
                   dogs MI5 HQ 

                   THE Sun is prepared to reveal only
                   one anecdote from Dame Stella's
                   book - because we don't believe it
                   breaches ANY official secrets. 

                   After becoming director general of
                   MI5 in 1992, her home was besieged
                   by journalists and she moved her two
                   daughters and their pet dog into an
                   apartment on the top floor of the spy
                   network's central London HQ. 

                   The hound was issued with his own
                   special security pass and a codename
                   - Alpha 7. 







  








From ericm at lne.com  Wed Sep  6 10:50:11 2000
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:50:11 -0700
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two weeks early. [cpunk]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 09:36:32AM -0700
References:  <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20000906105011.T21426@slack.lne.com>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 09:36:32AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> When will we see the first RSAREF-compatible public-domain code?


'BSAFEeay', a BSAFE API layer on top of SSLeay's crypto lib, was
put up on the net about three years ago.  It was mostly complete.
I beleive that RSAREF is the same API as BSAFE.


-- 
  Eric Murray http://www.lne.com/ericm  ericm at lne.com  PGP keyid:E03F65E5
                     Consulting Security Architect




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep  6 08:33:51 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:33:51 -0400
Subject: DCSB: RSA Expiration Fundraiser for EFF, Downtown Harvard Club of
 Boston
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                   The Members of

        The Digital Commerce Society of Boston,

                ,
                        and
     The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation

                In Celebration of the

             EXPIRATION OF THE RSA PATENT


        invite the Digital Commerce Community
       to cocktails and an evening fundraiser for
           the recent litigation efforts of


          THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION


           Special Guests to Be Announced


                  Wednesday Evening
                 September 20, 2000
                  5:30 to 8:30 PM

         The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
           One Federal Street, 38th Floor
                       Boston

                 Free hors d'oeuvres
                      Cash Bar
       Beautiful views of Boston Harbor at night

           Requested minimum donation $35
             The event's goal is $10,000



             RSVP (or for *sponsorship :-)),
                   Robert Hettinga,
                      Moderator,
        The Digital Commerce Society of Boston,
               

       The Club's new dress code is "Business Casual",
                 whatever *that* means...




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQEVAwUBObZiU8UCGwxmWcHhAQEcxAgAhABrdq+bcxPDMYcjyaYDFFkPq3s8Ymnk
6SqQmqWRTOaK7+cK+AVXuleNtSk13EMPRBtOLq56HRQH3Ea8/GpW8Oe1xpXQJf/c
4ASX4FfApS78jP+9qFVLiN6F8xqUKCJMDSaa0nqwbmc4XBzMMpHCNKFhWEdYqur9
Mkf8N7IYJcItPbpMcC6QUoNTVg1wQLt3rptZnsEyHyTWgge2z1lRO8Jt38m6NfS9
5ZPem8IkUpYjcIpqQVw2DhsoRO6v/jYZxeulNHty26hxbME2RnLfxEMuaCoqq5aM
zWPkRLMSyhYqo0POsSpOLg1FjA6wgMA0GTi0BbeDKqWGsSH25Av5Fw==
=o7iR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  6 08:36:55 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:36:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: new brit spybook simmering
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000906074436.008b6a30@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906074436.008b6a30@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:46 AM -0400 9/6/00, David Honig wrote:
>Those brits really need a 1st amendment...
>(and the _SUN_ needs to buy a clue about physical security)
>..good hype for Random House though..
>
>http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12986507
>

Firstly, there is nothing in the article suggesting that the "Sun" is 
acting under orders from the British government. In fact, the quotes 
imply otherwise.

"  We decided it was not in the national interest to reveal any of 
the book's more sensitive contents. " is one such quote.

Granted, the article goes on to say that the heads of the 
intelligence agencies want the book banned and even want Dame Stella 
prosecuted for violating the Official Secrets Act. The U.S. does not 
have such a broad ban on publication as the Official Secrets Act, but 
it certainly has its own constellation of laws, criminal and civil, 
regarding distribution of bits, export of bits, etc. Ask the inventor 
of the PhasorPhone about how he was banned from describing his own 
invention to others. (Patent secrecy orders, "classified in the 
national interest," codeword material, etc.)

Secondly, the U.S. has imposed limits on the writings of former 
agents of its intelligence services, contractually and otherwise. 
Former agents routinely have to seek permision to publish their books.

Thirdly, some folks in the U.S. have faced prosecution for 
publication of books and photos allegedly violating U.S. security. 
The "Jane's" case of several years back.

Fourthly, the U.S. sometimes resorts to extra-legal measures to stop 
those who write what it doesn't like.

--Tim May





-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Sep  6 08:40:18 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:40:18 -0400 
Subject: CDR: [Apologies] RE: RSA Security releases ... cpunk
Message-ID: 

I don't know why the post is appearing multiple times, and
I'm as annoyed about it as you are.

Peter Trei




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep  6 11:44:35 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:44:35 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Good work by FBI and SEC on Emulex fraud case
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
 
 <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000906114435.009714f0@idiom.com>

>At 1:12 PM -0700 8/31/00, Eric Murray wrote:
>>A small note: IW digitally-signing the releases would not
>>have made a difference in this case--  the guy used his knowledge
>>of IW's procedures to social-engineer IW into accepting the
>>fake release without doing their usual checking procedures.

At 01:22 PM 8/31/00 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>The system I envision would mean each chunk of text ("press release") 
>would carry a digital sig, which could be checked multiple times. 
>Hard for social engineering to get past the fact that Emulex, say, 
>had not digitally signed their own alleged press release.

How often do people check signatures?  
If they check them, and they pass, how often do they check keys?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


From cactus at TAKEMEOUTcactus-cactus.com  Wed Sep  6 11:55:41 2000
From: cactus at TAKEMEOUTcactus-cactus.com (Cactus)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:55:41 -0700
Subject: CDR: Weekly updates at Cactus Cactus
Message-ID: <20000906185747.HTJE22841.mail2.rdc2.bc.home.com@CR209993-A.crdva1.bc.wave.home.com>

Come join the party at Cactus Cactus!
http://www.cactus-cactus.com/




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep  6 09:09:18 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:09:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: DCSB: RSA Expiration Fundraiser for EFF, Downtown Harvard Club of
  Boston
Message-ID: 


--- begin forwarded text



From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep  6 12:10:57 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:10:57 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
References:  <39B59208.DB335A0F@sunder.net> <00ca01c01803$9f2dc7c0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>
Message-ID: <39B696C1.46280F4C@sunder.net>

Marcel Popescu wrote:
> 
> X-Loop: openpgp.net
> From: "sunder" 
> 
> > I tend to just string up lots of characters, so my passphrases look like
> this:
> >
> >  ^#.;Odfi9 at 7f$}'~%42w0,m:Qe_|33+\  and so on.
> 
> Why the heck would you need a password this big? There are 94 printable
> characters (0x33 .. 0x7E); a random password 32 chars long (like the above)
> will thus have ~ 1.38 x 10^63 possibilities, meaning 210 bits of entropy
> (10^63 = O(2^210)). What, do you intend to use your password as a public
> key?
> 
> A password made of the same character set, but only 8 chars long, will
> provide 94^8 ~= 6 x 10^15 = O(2^50) combinations. I'd say that's plenty -
> remember, it's a password, not a key.

I use things like the above as passphrases, not passwords, to things like PGP or the encrypted disk partitions I use.  Hence you
need lots of entropy.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Sep  6 10:29:15 2000
From: measl at mfn.org (Missouri FreeNet Administration)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:29:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two weeks e arly. [cpunk]
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


:RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain
:
:'c = m(e) mod n' Made Available Two Weeks Early

ROTFLMAO!  Gee: wasn't it "public" already? 

Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

--
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep  6 13:08:16 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:08:16 -0700
Subject: CDR: Aldrich Ames might go free; .gov security still lax, etc...
Message-ID: <39B6A430.68DDFA7D@sunder.net>

>From SLF:


http://thescotsman.co.uk/world.cfm?id=TS00133394&d

Moscow poised to offer Cold War-style spy swap 

Chris Stephen In Moscow 

REPORTS in Russia suggest Moscow is preparing to offer the
United States a Cold War-style "spy swap" involving the
release of an American businessman charged with espionage in
return for the convicted spy Aldrich Ames. 

A Moscow newspaper, Sevodnya, yesterday quoted a source
in Russia’s security service, the FSB, as saying they were
considering offering to swap the businessman, Edmond Pope. 

He is accused of trying to buy plans for the same top secret
torpedo, the Squall, that was being tested by the Kursk
submarine when it exploded and sank last month. 





http://www.bergen.com/morenews/fake200009026.htm

Investigators with phony ID
easily breach security checks 

Sunday, September 3, 2000

By TAMARA LYTLE
Special from The Orlando Sentinel

WASHINGTON -- Investigators used phony law-enforcement
identification available on the Internet and elsewhere to breach security
at some of the nation's most sensitive agencies, including the CIA, the
FBI, and the Departments of Justice and State.

The investigators breezed into 18 federal facilities, Orlando International
Airport, Washington's Reagan National Airport, and the U.S courthouse
in Orlando simply by flashing fake badges and credentials. In some cases
they were able to claim they had firearms but still bypass metal
detectors and other screening.




http://www4.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2620091,00.html

Big Brother Is Watching . . . What You Buy
August 28, 2000  8:19 AM ET
By Lisa Dempster


In his nightmarish novel 1984, George Orwell envisioned a future in which the merest hint of privacy would be treason and
protagonist Winston Smith would be cowed into embracing truth in his telescreen. The year in question came and went, but could
Orwell's bad dream become our reality two decades later? What kind of privacy protection will we be able to expect from the Internet
in 2004? Picture this: Retinal scans, fingerprint readers built into your mouse and voice recognition software able to nail your
identity down to the roots of your genetic code. Great for keeping your identity a secret from advertising piranhas, but do you
really want your bank or online health-care provider to store such intimate information?


Unlike Orwell's dour Smith, who struggled to conceal his thoughts and feelings from Big Brother, privacy advocates predict our
biggest concern in four years' time will be camouflaging ourselves from corporate behemoths devoted to discovering our every
purchasing peccadillo - and pandering to it.




http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=306483

UPDATE: MS Word documents can be tracked on Web 
by Peter Sayer, IDG News Service\Paris Bureau 
August 31, 2000, 07:53 

 Creators of Microsoft Word documents can use the application's
 well-documented ability to include Web hyperlinks in documents to
 remotely track who is reading a them, according to a study by the
 Denver-based Privacy Foundation published Wednesday.

 Users of Microsoft's word processor have been able to embed graphics in
 their documents for the best part of a decade, but only in versions of the
 program since Word 97 have users been able to replace a bulky,
 memory-hogging graphic with a short URL (Uniform Resource Locator)
 pointing to the location of the graphic on a Web server. Each time the
 document is opened, the computer sends an HTTP (Hypertext Transfer
 Protocol) request to the Web server asking for the graphic in order to
 display it.





-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From agl at linuxpower.org  Wed Sep  6 10:54:18 2000
From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:54:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:27:53AM -0400
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20000906195618.F12619@linuxpower.org>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:27:53AM -0400, David Honig wrote:
>      BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany is planning to slap new
>      levies on computer, telecommunications and Internet
>      products to ensure that authors are properly rewarded for
>      the use of their work, a newspaper said Wednesday.

Is this really a bad thing? Music is becomming a public service. When author
cannot control their works (as is happening now) the works basically become
a public service - and the way public services are funded is by govt taxes. If
they stop trying (and failing) to control content and just use this - well
it's not perfect - but it's better than a DMCA/UCITA world.

My worry is that they distribute this money only to the big record companies
and screw the 'real musicians'

AGL

-- 
I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.
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From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  6 14:02:56 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:02:56 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Good work by FBI and SEC on Emulex fraud case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000906114435.009714f0@idiom.com>
References: <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
 
 <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000906114435.009714f0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:44 AM -0700 9/6/00, Bill Stewart wrote:
>  >At 1:12 PM -0700 8/31/00, Eric Murray wrote:
>>>A small note: IW digitally-signing the releases would not
>>>have made a difference in this case--  the guy used his knowledge
>>>of IW's procedures to social-engineer IW into accepting the
>>>fake release without doing their usual checking procedures.
>
>At 01:22 PM 8/31/00 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>The system I envision would mean each chunk of text ("press release")
>>would carry a digital sig, which could be checked multiple times.
>>Hard for social engineering to get past the fact that Emulex, say,
>>had not digitally signed their own alleged press release.
>
>How often do people check signatures?
>If they check them, and they pass, how often do they check keys?
>


Don't know. But not the problem of those issuing press releases. That 
_some_ people check signatures, whether electronic or inked, and 
_other_ people _don't_ doesn't lessen the significance of signing.

Those who bother to check a putative press release and find the 
attached signature doesn't match what they have seen from Web sites 
(and related "widely witnessed events," including hashes published in 
the company's financial documents, etc.) will have competitive 
advantages over those who don't bother to check and just hit the 
panic button.

Sounds fair to me. Sounds like evolution in action.


--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From ClipperCruiseLine at emailhoster.com  Wed Sep  6 13:52:52 2000
From: ClipperCruiseLine at emailhoster.com (ClipperCruiseLine at emailhoster.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 14:53:52 -0559
Subject: CDR: A Special Offer to Discover New Zealand from Clipper Cruise Line
Message-ID: 

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From craig at red-bean.com  Wed Sep  6 12:01:56 2000
From: craig at red-bean.com (Craig Brozefsky)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:01:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: Adam Langley's message of "Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:54:18 -0400"
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <877l8pqr96.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>

Adam Langley  writes:

> Is this really a bad thing? Music is becomming a public
> service. When author cannot control their works (as is happening
> now) the works basically become a public service - and the way
> public services are funded is by govt taxes.= If they stop trying
> (and failing) to control content and just use this - well it's not
> perfect - but it's better than a DMCA/UCITA world.

it is naive to think that this tax is going to stop them from pursuing
their UCITA/DMCA led efforts to completely control the works they
distribute in order to destroy "fair use" and reap as much money as
possible from consumers.  This tax is just icing on the cake for
them, a welcome revenue stream.



-- 
Craig Brozefsky               
"Revolution begins by giving things and social
 relationships their real names". --  L. Trotsky





From billstewart at att.com  Wed Sep  6 15:46:38 2000
From: billstewart at att.com (Bill Stewart or other lab user)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:46:38 -0700
Subject: CDR: GPG Slashdot discussion; Phil Z Interview
Message-ID: <39B6C94E.99CC3031@att.com>

Slashdot discussion at
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/09/06/1653255&mode=thread

OctaneZ asks: "What are the relative merits and drawbacks of using 
Gnu Privacy Guard vs. Network Associates' PGP. I am not referring 
to the fact that GPG doesn't use any restricted implemtations or
algorithems; or that GPG was not affected by the recent PGP hole; 
but other more everyday issues. How is interoperability between the two. 
As well as integration into common applications such as Eudora in
windows and others, possibly PINE, in LINUX. Could this be deployed 
such that the learning curve of transitioning users from PGP to GPG is
not too steep? 
I am a strong beleiver in encryption, and have used PGP for a very long
time, 
however I would prefer to use an OpenSource/Non-restricted program; 
however the usefullness of said program, as well as the security 
takes precidence, at least in my book." 

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/09/06/1916226&mode=thread

A reader writes "PGP's creator is participating in an online interview
this week. 
	http://forums.itworld.com/webx?14@@.ee6caf5
Phil is mainly interested in  clearing the air about the 
recently discovered ADK bug, but the larger topics of encryption 
and worldwide organized snoop rings (Echelon) have already come up. 
The interview is open to questions from anyone; runs through Friday
9/8." 


========================




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  6 12:56:42 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:56:42 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <20000906195618.F12619@linuxpower.org>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:54 PM -0400 9/6/00, Adam Langley wrote:
>--kXdP64Ggrk/fb43R
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Disposition: inline
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:27:53AM -0400, David Honig wrote:
>>       BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany is planning to slap new
>>       levies on computer, telecommunications and Internet
>>       products to ensure that authors are properly rewarded for
>>       the use of their work, a newspaper said Wednesday.
>
>Is this really a bad thing? Music is becomming a public service. When author
>cannot control their works (as is happening now) the works basically become
>a public service - and the way public services are funded is by govt taxes.=
>  If
>they stop trying (and failing) to control content and just use this - well
>it's not perfect - but it's better than a DMCA/UCITA world.
>
>My worry is that they distribute this money only to the big record companies
>and screw the 'real musicians'

You're missing a more important point: there is no correlation 
between who is using the service or product and who is paying the tax.

Taxing a computer used for video game playing, for example, when 
absolutely no "piracy" is happening from that computer. An overly 
wide net.

Governments like this sort of thing, however. Tax everyone, then 
spend the revenues as they wish.

Might as well tax paper products, pens, pencils, and 
typewriters...because sometimes these are used to copy the works of 
others.

But, as I said, the deeper issue is the "disconnect" between the tax 
and the allegedly "improper use" of some service.

The U.S. have done this many times, of course. In particular, the 
Home Recording Act of 1991, or thereabouts, which slapped a tax on 
blank tapes and let home recording folks copy as much as they wanted 
(so long as they don't sell the tapes). (A friend of mine has over 
4500 CDs copied digitally onto DAT and CD-R. I'm just a piker, having 
only about 500 CDs copied onto DAT and CD-R. Why _buy_ a CD when our 
libraries have tens of thousands of CDs available for borrowing and 
copying?)

And from a practical standpoint, this bad tax (bad in the 
decorrelation, nonmarket sense) also leads us in the wrong direction. 
Instead of the recording companies figuring out technological and 
market solutions, they are relying on "men with guns" to collect 
taxes and, hopefully, with enough lobbyists in Bonn and Berne and 
D.C., to dribble some of these taxes back to the recording companies.

Feh.

--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Sep  6 12:59:38 2000
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:59:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 

I fail to see why anybody would bother with coding up an RSAref compatible
lib. But there is of course RSAref Europe, so that job was done years ago.
What is more interesting is how long it will take for us to see more
fully-featured BSAFE API compatible code.

--Lucky


On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Bill Stewart wrote:

> When will we see the first RSAREF-compatible public-domain code?
> 
> At 10:10 AM 9/6/00 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
> >Wednesday September 6, 8:03 am Eastern Time
> >
> >Press Release
> >
> >SOURCE: RSA Security Inc.
> >
> >RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain
> >
> >'c = m(e) mod n' Made Available Two Weeks Early
> >
> >BEDFORD, Mass., Sept. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- RSA� Security
> >Inc. (Nasdaq: RSAS - news) today announced it has released the
> >RSA public key encryption algorithm into the public domain,
> >allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their own
> >implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has
> >waived its rights to enforce the patent for any development
> >activities that include the RSA algorithm occurring after
> >September 6, 2000.
> 
> 
> 				Thanks! 
> 					Bill
> Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
> PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
> 
> 
> 


-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  6 13:05:54 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:05:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <877l8pqr96.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 

At 3:01 PM -0400 9/6/00, Craig Brozefsky wrote:
>Adam Langley  writes:
>
>>  Is this really a bad thing? Music is becomming a public
>>  service. When author cannot control their works (as is happening
>>  now) the works basically become a public service - and the way
>>  public services are funded is by govt taxes.= If they stop trying
>>  (and failing) to control content and just use this - well it's not
>>  perfect - but it's better than a DMCA/UCITA world.
>
>it is naive to think that this tax is going to stop them from pursuing
>their UCITA/DMCA led efforts to completely control the works they
>distribute in order to destroy "fair use" and reap as much money as
>possible from consumers.  This tax is just icing on the cake for
>them, a welcome revenue stream.

I agree completely. The Home Recording Act I referenced in my last 
message was also a tax (on blank tape), and yet it certainly didn't 
stop the recording companies from going after Napster, MP3, and 
various other companies.

The governments of the world always love new excuses to add taxes.

And the extra lobbying that will result as companies scramble to try 
to glom onto this "revenue stream" will also be welcome to 
governments: this will increase campaign contributions, kickbacks, 
bribes, and lucrative post-gov't. employment offers. The mother's 
milk of politics.

And cretins like Gore and McCain babble on about "campaign reform." 
Why do high tech companies feel the need to fund _both_ major parties 
in these United States? Insurance. Protection money. The nation is a 
"shakedown state," a protection racket, with campaign contributions 
and the like just the rent the government collects. This funds the 
lobbyists in their large Georgetown mansions, this funds the 
Caribbean cruises, this funds the lucrative jobs at Halliburton 
(Cheney), Microsoft (Patty Murray), and so on, for a hundred other 
such examples.)

This whole foo-fah over MP3 is just seen as a chance to shake down 
the companies for more money, with the highest bidder winning the pot.

Germany is just trying to get into the racket as best it can.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Wed Sep  6 13:06:18 2000
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:06:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: 128-bit netscaoe v4 for bellsouth.net
References: <39B48B81.8D99E1F6@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <39B6A3BA.8ADAF423@crosswinds.net>

Sonny wrote:
> 
> hello I would like to know if Netscape communictor version 4.* is
> available for bellsouth.net with 128-bit encryption. Pleas Email me

Yep son, download from home.netscape.com

--
 "It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and to 
 expose lies."  -Noam Chomsky




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep  6 14:23:16 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:23:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: European CDR nodes
In-Reply-To: <20000906182609.26727.qmail@c0re.rc23.cx>
Message-ID: 


On 6 Sep 2000 drt at c0re.rc23.cx wrote:

> In cypherpunks, you wrote:
> 
> >European CDR nodes?
> 
> As already told, I'm working on that. 
> 
> I would like to get some Information on the existing CDR Nodes:
> 
> 1. Amount Traffic
> 2. Nr. of Subscribers
> 3. Software &  Configuration used.
> 
> Do you keep a Message-ID History to avoid loops like used in NNTP or
> do you do yust path filtering to decide it news should go to the
> other nodes?

See,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#newnode

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Wed Sep  6 13:24:56 2000
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:24:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Religious and Psychological Warfare Tactics in Phoenix, AZ
References: <39B4231D.F5992E3A@apfn.org>
Message-ID: <39B6A818.36E556A6@crosswinds.net>

American Patriot Friends Network wrote:
> 
> I found this anonymously posted article at the following URL:
> This information is well worth reading, IMHO.....
	Yes, as far as poorly argued disinfo goes.
Ever notice how the scientific explanations in articles like these are
*so* vague that it is really impossible to verify anything ?

Nanotechnology supercomputers ?  Can I parse this ? What is a
nanotechnology supercomputer ?
If conspiracy theorists had a background in the physical sciences it
would make their writings easier to understand...

> links. In other words, along with supercomputers directly filling your brain
> with images and thoughts, there is the capability to create the illusion of
> mind reading abilities with the brain to brain links.
	How ?  Any description of the technologies involved or are we supposed
to just take the author's words for it ?
When the trivial write on matters of import the results tend to be ugly.
If there is any truth in mind control speculations then these guys are
doing a double disservice ! Telling the truth in a form that is
completely unacceptable to anyone with a background in the sciences.

> technology. People are being connected to these electromagnetic frequencies,
	How ? How is a person "connected to electromagnetic frequencies" ?
Which frequencies ?  The article just mentions: "Cellular phone
frequencies,
microwave radar and radio frequencies"  dear God, what a huge chunck of
the spectrum, no ?  A few Billion Hertz...

> their thoughts are being monitored and recorded 
	How ?  

> Religious Organizations can easily abuse this procedure, 
	fnord

> In addition, a device called the Bio-Pacer has also been developed that will
> inflict a "goose-bumps" effect on individual subjects likely via satellite.
	"Likely" via satellite... In other words he has no clue but believes
that satellite will be a likely medium ?

> Some notable anti-gay members of the Arizona Legislature are Karen Johnson
> and Barbara Blewster. Barbara has stated that "Homosexuality leads to
> beastiality, human sacrifice and cannibalism.". 
	*snicker* can I quote this ?

> Other technology includes microchips which are designed to be injected into
> the blood stream of unaware citizens that are 200 times smaller than a human
> hair (nanotechnology) 
	Are these microchips developed ?  If so how do you know ?  A well
placed source, a trusted informant ?
Can anyone brief us on the current state of nanotechnology research ?

> Awareness to what is actually taking place allows you to become stronger and
> better able to withstand this repulsive game until it is fully exposed 

	Only if one is actually, in fact, aware and only if one is actually, in
fact, informed and properly informed.

My concern is with backing up of wild claims, if someone gives me
evidence for a claim then I will seriously consider it, no matter how
wild it appears on the surface, but without even this where does one
start ?

THIS is what concerns me, people are making serious claims and not
giving jack to back it up with.  If their purpose is disinfo then they
are working, if their purpose is to actually help in a real situation
then they are shooting THEMSELVES in the foot.




From BNinc_MasterWelcome at email.bn.com  Wed Sep  6 13:56:38 2000
From: BNinc_MasterWelcome at email.bn.com (Barnes & Noble Booksellers)
Date: Wed,  6 Sep 2000 16:56:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: 10% COUPON FROM BARNES & NOBLE 
Message-ID: 

Dear Barnes & Noble Customer, 

Thank you for providing us with your email address. As promised,
we are sending you a Barnes & Noble discount coupon, good toward
10% off your next purchase at a Barnes & Noble bookstore.

****************************************************

BARNES & NOBLE BOOKSTORE 10% DISCOUNT COUPON

Take 10% off your total purchase of $25 or more at a Barnes & Noble, 
even if your selection is already discounted! Just print out this 
email message and bring it to any Barnes & Noble bookstore.

Coupon code: C475092700
This offer is good through 9/27/00
Coupon is valid on a single purchase transaction made at a 
Barnes & Noble, Bookstop, or Bookstar store. May not be used 
toward the purchase of electronic gift cards (and/or gift 
certificates). Not valid at Barnes & Noble College Bookstores.
Limit one coupon per customer.
Email address: cypherpunks at toad.com

****************************************************

YOU ARE NOW CONNECTED TO THE BARNES & NOBLE NETWORK

...and therefore will receive the latest information via email 
on special events, promotional offers, new book announcements, 
and more from your favorite Barnes & Noble bookstore and 
Barnes & Noble.com.

If you would like to find out what's going on at a 
Barnes & Noble bookstore, or you want to shop at 
Barnes & Noble.com right now, click on one of the 
links below. 

To locate a Barnes & Noble store or search upcoming 
in-store events:
http://email.bn.com/cgi-bin6/flo?y=eCft0B2vOp0pO0BIWL

To shop at Barnes & Noble.com:
http://email.bn.com/cgi-bin6/flo?y=eCft0B2vOp0pO0BEne
(Sorry, we can't redeem the above 10% discount coupon
online, but you'll enjoy our excellent everyday prices
nonetheless.)


PLEASE NOTE:
If you wish not to receive future email updates and offers from 
Barnes & Noble, or if you would like to personally select the 
stores about which we send you information, please click here:
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From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Wed Sep  6 14:12:54 2000
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:12:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: (no subject)
References: 
Message-ID: <39B6B356.F08DC1EA@crosswinds.net>

> i was wondering if there is a way u can listen to a 900 mhz cordless phone
> conversation from some type of scanner ,
	Yes and no.  If it is spread spectrum then without a spectrum analyzer
with an Audio Demod and some other stuff, you can't monitor it :-)

If its a straight non spread spectrum non digital signal then yes you
can, just search the allocated frequencies.

> and be able to pinpoint the exact
> phone? 
	a couple of good yagi antennas, some signal strength meters, and wide
band recievers should help you.
Look up "Fox Hunting" and talk to some local hams, they should be able
to help you out.

> can u bugg a cordless phone without being seen? 
	I won't insult you by asking if you are na idiot, but please try to
come up with sensical questions friend.

> is there listening devices that can go thru houses to hear?
	I could not even start to parse this one folks...




From weinmann at rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de  Wed Sep  6 08:19:07 2000
From: weinmann at rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de (Ralf-Philipp Weinmann)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:19:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: CDR: Re: linux-ipsec: RSA released
In-Reply-To: <000c01c01811$6fcadb90$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Roy Silvernail wrote:

> Looks to me like they just didn't want to let the parties go on as
> scheduled.

I totally agree. They are fucking up the party schedule!
Bloody bastards.
Those 2 weeks sure would have made a real difference in royalty
income I suppose :)
I'd have had respect for them had they done it a year early.

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf-P. Weinmann 
PGP fingerprint: 2048/46C772078ACB58DEF6EBF8030CBF1724




From sc4tal19 at idt.net  Wed Sep  6 14:29:10 2000
From: sc4tal19 at idt.net (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:29:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20000906195618.F12619@linuxpower.org>
 <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000906172354.00aac700@pop3.idt.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:56 PM 9/6/00 -0400, Tim wrote:

>The U.S. have done this many times, of course. In particular, the Home 
>Recording Act of 1991, or thereabouts, which slapped a tax on blank tapes 
>and let home recording folks copy as much as they wanted (so long as they 
>don't sell the tapes). (A friend of mine has over 4500 CDs copied 
>digitally onto DAT and CD-R. I'm just a piker, having only about 500 CDs 
>copied onto DAT and CD-R. Why _buy_ a CD when our libraries have tens of 
>thousands of CDs available for borrowing and copying?)

Interesting to note that the same type tax applies to "music CD-R" blanks 
(of the type required by the Phillips-Magnavox style music CD burners, 
which won't burn onto a data blank).  Last I looked, such blanks were 
still >$1.00, where data CD-R blanks are down to ~$0.39.  And, of course, 
computer-based burners have no problem burning audio onto a data CD-R.

>And from a practical standpoint, this bad tax (bad in the decorrelation, 
>nonmarket sense) also leads us in the wrong direction. Instead of the 
>recording companies figuring out technological and market solutions, they 
>are relying on "men with guns" to collect taxes and, hopefully, with 
>enough lobbyists in Bonn and Berne and D.C., to dribble some of these 
>taxes back to the recording companies.

Where they doubtless stay.  It's pretty well known how little artists make 
from their corp-owned recorded works.

- --
            Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     sc4tal19 at idt.net
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
                  Key available from pubkey at scytale.com
             I charge to process unsolicited commercial email
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQEVAwUBOba3JmCl9Uka85MxAQEAywf/XMMC0nvBoIzJ1ulRanBATG8S75tlHbFp
wW1D93v8UqRdGsi5kRvrKfB5dfU/NIQg8hWxGnw0KhsgEtNbCzJUkdaIbAfDL9vm
FkWQEChe3KHLSzc+OhFwq632heuTKSkAyCmt9qNg8S3BeLs/BXgVywZZLmEDeJB9
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=eWI3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep  6 17:29:50 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:29:50 -0700
Subject: CDR: BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration 9/11 7:30pm SFO Hyatt
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000906172950.00795830@idiom.com>

=======================================

Media Advisory

BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration
Whit Diffie and Dave Del Torto Speak of RSA's Past and Future

WHO: Electronic Frontier Foundation, Whit Diffie, Dave Del Torto
and music by UKUSA from VirtualRecordings.com
WHAT: `BayFF' Meeting on RSA Patent Expiration
WHEN: Monday September 11th, 2000 at 7:30PM
WHERE: Hyatt Regency San Francisco Airport
(650) 347-1234

Directions are forthcoming on the EFF website: www.eff.org

In honor of its 10th Anniversary of defending civil liberties online, EFF
presents a series of monthly meetings to address important issues where
technology and policy collide. These meetings, entitled "BayFF,"
kicked off on July 10th and will continue throughout the year. The upcoming
BayFF features famed cryptographer Whitfield Diffie and MEconomy's Master of
Secrets, Dave Del Torto. They will help us celebrate the RSA patent's
expiration on September 20th, 2000. How will these changes effect the public
at large? What are the benefits? Are there any drawbacks?

Whitfield Diffie, who holds the position of Distinguished Engineer at Sun
Microsystems, is best known for his 1975 discovery of the concept of public
key cryptography, for which he was awarded a Doctorate in Technical Sciences
(Honoris Causa) by the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in 1992. Diffie
received a Bachelor of Science degree in mathematics from the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology in 1965.

For a dozen years prior to assuming his present position in 1991, Diffie was
Manager of Secure Systems Research for Northern Telecom, functioning as the
center of expertise in advanced security technologies throughout the
corporation. Since 1993, Diffie has worked largely in public policy, in the
area of cryptography.

Dave Del Torto's career in Internet privacy and security started in
the late 1980s at the University of California at Berkeley, where he
was one of the original "Cypherpunks." He joined Pretty Good Privacy
Inc. (PGP) as a founding employee in 1996, and in 1997 was part of
the four-man team that published the entire PGP source code in 13
paper volumes, which resulted in the first legal international PGP
freeware (exports of 128-bit crypto have since been greatly deregulated).

He currently serves as the Executive Director of the CryptoRights Foundation
(a human rights security organization) and is the Chief Security Officer of
MEconomy, Inc., a privacy infomediary company based in San Francisco.


**** You can subscribe to EFF's mailing list to receive the
regular BayFF annoucements. To subscribe, email 
and put this in the text (not the subject line): subscribe BayFF.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org) is the leading
civil liberties organization working to protect rights in the digital world.
Founded in 1990, EFF actively encourages and challenges industry and
government to support free expression, privacy, and openness in the
information society. EFF is a member-supported organization and
maintains one of the most-linked-to Web sites in the world.

Contact:
John Marttila
Administrative Assistant
Electronic Frontier Foundation
415-436-9333 ex 107
 

<<<<

>>>>

======================
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From juzam at cyberspace.org  Wed Sep  6 14:30:35 2000
From: juzam at cyberspace.org (juzam)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:30:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
References: <200009052355.UAA27827@poseidon.inf.ufsc.br>
Message-ID: <39B6B77A.3CFD6ED2@cyberspace.org>

according to applied cryptography, these permutaions do not effect the
security of the algorithm, but i'm not sure about the purpose.

Augusto Jun Devegili wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I was just wondering... In DES, there's an Initial
> Permutation (IP) on the plaintext, then 16 rounds, and
> then the inverse permutation (IP^-1) of the result to
> produce the ciphertext.
>
> How effective are these permutations? Do they really
> add diffusion to the algorithm, considering that they
> don't depend on the key?
>
> Someone told me that they are necessary to provide
> reversibility to DES. Is this correct?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Best Regards,
>
> Devegili

--
foo=====================
   rim vilgalys
  juzam at cyberspace.org

 -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL

#!/bin/perl -sp0777i

SF Bay Area Cypherpunks September 2000 Physical Meeting Announcement

General Info:

DATE:   Saturday Sept 11 2000
TIME:   12:00 - 6:00 PM (Pacific Time)
PLACE:  Eric Messick's Dome, Santa Cruz Mountains

Agenda

This is a low-key meeting at Eric's home in the mountains, beginning about
1pm.

   ~12 -Bring lunch, undo geographical delocalization, admire mountain
        roads and wildlife. Carpooling would be a good idea, given limited
parking.
   ~1 - Admire the E-Dome, Hugh's Lab and the Copper-Insulated Wall,
        socialize, discuss Burning Man, Plan RSA Patent-expiration party
   ** - Eric Blossom's Starium Bump-in-the-wire Cryptophone demo -
        They're finally here, 3DES and everything.
   ** - Bill Scannell's trip to Ascension Island - An alternate landing site 
	for the space shuttle, Ascension island is forbidden turf, occupied by 
	NASA, NSA, and several other American spook agencies.
   ** - Hugh Daniel - IPSEC and FreeS/WAN update and demo.

As usual, this is an open public meeting on US soil.  
Please leave the US soil outside :-)

RSA has released the RSA patent to the public domain two weeks early,
so bring code!  There will still be a party around 9/20-9/23.

Whit Diffie and Dave Del Torto will speak at an EFF meeting Mon 9/11 7:30pm
at the Hyatt Regency San Francisco Airport in Burlingame.  
Details http://www.eff.org/EFF/BayFF/ will be posted soon.

Location

Most of the online maps provide unreliable directions, so use the attached.
I find the drive takes about 30 minutes from Mountain View or 15-20 from
the 280/17 intersection except during heavy traffic; parking is country roads 
and dirt driveways.

Postscript Map to Eric's House - for printing
Map

%  Human readable text directions to the E-Dome:
%
%                       Eric Messick  or  ||ugh Daniel
%                       15139 Old Ranch Road
%                       Los Gatos, California, 95030-8506
%                       Latitude 37 08' 02", Longitude 121 59' 40"
%                       edome at syzygy.com
%                       eric_&_messages(+1 408 353 4751)
%
%   From San Jose, take Highway 17 south from Interstate 280 or Highway 85.
%   From Santa Cruz, take Highway 17 North from Highway 1.
%   Exit Highway 17 at Summit Road and head west, in both directions that's
% a right off the highway and left onto Summit Road.
%   Follow Summit Road past two streets on the left until Summit makes a hard
% right turn at the third street, you want to turn left from Summit Road onto
% Hutchinson Road which is more like going straight (in the day time be VERY
% carful making this 'blind to oncoming traffic' turn!).
%   Follow Hutchinson until just after Riva Ridge Road veers up on the left
% and you see a long group of black mailboxes on the right, make an acute
% right turn here from Hutchinson Road onto Old Ranch Road.
%   At the first curve/split of Old Ranch road you want to stay right when the
% road splits, (there is a "SLOW 10 SPEED LIMIT" sign at the fork; keep
% to the right of this sign).
%   Follow the drive down the hill until it flattens out and the trees thin
% out above you, you should see the top of the E-Dome on your left, our
% driveway is the next left.
%
%  Distance table:
%  South on 17 from Interstate 280 to Summit Road             15.0mi / 21.0km
%  South on 17 from Highway 85 to Summit Road                 10.0mi / 14.0km?
%  North on 17 from Highway 1 to Summit Road                  12.5mi / 17.5km
%  Then:
%  West on Summit from Highway 17 to Hutchinson Road          00.5mi / 00.7km
%  West on Hutchinson Road from Summit Road to Old Ranch Road 00.2mi / 00.3km
%  Hutchinson Road down Old Ranch Road to our driveway        00.4mi / 00.6km
%
%
%  Schematic ASCII map to the E-Dome:
%
%                                   this way to San Jose
%                                         |          .
%                                         |          |\
%                                  |S     |H         |
%                       Old        |u     |W         | N
%                       Ranch      |m     |Y         | o
%                       Road       |m     |          | r
%                           |  */  |i     |1         | t
%                           |__/   |t     |7         | h
%                           /.     |      |
%                     ------++--+--+-+--+-=--------------
%        Hutchinson Road    /             |  Summit Road
%                          /              |
%                   Riva Ridge Road       |
%                                         |1
%                                         |7
%                                         |
%                                   this way to Santa Cruz
%  -/_|  Road
%  +     Road Intersection
%  =     Overpass
%  .     Line of mail boxes
%  *     E-Dome
%

If you have questions, comment or agenda requests, please contact the
meeting organizer:
   Bill Stewart bill.stewart at pobox.com Cell +1-415-307-7119

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
This announcement has been sent to the meetingpunks and cypherpunks lists.
To UNSUBSCRIBE an address from the meetingpunks list send email to:
    meetingpunks-request at majordomo.cryptorights.org
with "unsubscribe meetingpunks [optional-address]" in the BODY.
To SUBSCRIBE an address to this list send email to:
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with "subscribe meetingpunks [optional-address]" in the BODY.
To contact the list-owner, send email to meetingpunks-admin at cryptorights.org.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks list, look at the mail headers, find
which of the servers sent you the message, and send mail to
cypherpunks-request at that server saying "help".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ben at algroup.co.uk  Wed Sep  6 10:15:58 2000
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:15:58 +0100
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain twoweeks 
 early. [cpunk]
References: <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <39B67BCE.B352A02B@algroup.co.uk>

Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> When will we see the first RSAREF-compatible public-domain code?
> 
> [There already is a European developed RSAREF API replacement. Now it
> is legal for U.S. use. --Perry]

http://www.openssl.org/

Cheers,

Ben.

--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html

Coming to ApacheCon Europe 2000? http://apachecon.com/




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep  6 15:25:29 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 18:25:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: new brit spybook simmering
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906074436.008b6a30@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906152404.008ae690@pop.sprynet.com>

At 11:36 AM 9/6/00 -0400, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:46 AM -0400 9/6/00, David Honig wrote:
>>Those brits really need a 1st amendment...
>>(and the _SUN_ needs to buy a clue about physical security)
>>..good hype for Random House though..
>>
>>http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12986507
>>
>
>Firstly, there is nothing in the article suggesting that the "Sun" is 
>acting under orders from the British government. In fact, the quotes 
>imply otherwise.
>

Sure.  Its not censorship (yet).

But what kind of environment suffers a publisher who won't publish? 

Information is leaked, at some risk, so that it can be broadcast.
Sure, this is a private action, but when someone gives you a treasure
you don't hide from it.  You don't ask the queen how far to bend over.

Maybe I'm spoiled on cryptome.  Maybe I'm a boorish 'Merikan
Bill-of-Rights-fetishist who doesn't sympathize with Germans burning CDs,
France threatening Yahoo, the UK rubber hosing passwords.   Who finds the
SUN's begging for a leash abhorrent.  So sue me.











  








From insightbook at excite.com  Wed Sep  6 16:11:03 2000
From: insightbook at excite.com (insightbook at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:11:03 -0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200009062258.PAA24454@sirius.infonex.com>


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this is a one time mailer
hit reply to get off this world info list
       





From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com  Wed Sep  6 16:22:01 2000
From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 19:22:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: $ 325 USD for you
Message-ID: <200009062318.QAA25612@toad.com>

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Type: text/html
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From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Wed Sep  6 18:08:07 2000
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:08:07 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: <39B6B77A.3CFD6ED2@cyberspace.org>
References: <200009052355.UAA27827@poseidon.inf.ufsc.br>
 <39B6B77A.3CFD6ED2@cyberspace.org>
Message-ID: 

At 17:30 -0400 9/6/00, juzam wrote:
>according to applied cryptography, these permutaions do not effect the
>security of the algorithm, but i'm not sure about the purpose.

As I recall the basic purpose was to make it slow in software meaning 
that software cracking apps were/are at a severe disadvantage vs. 
hardware implementations.  It would be interesting to see how much 
longer that extended DES's effective lifetime.   I would consider the 
initial permutations to be in the same category as Blowfish's (and 
derivative algorithm's) time consuming key expansion phase- a neat 
"trick" that does not improve theoretical security but significantly 
increases the difficulty of real world attacks.
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From EPKuzas at webtv.net  Wed Sep  6 19:01:32 2000
From: EPKuzas at webtv.net (Edward Kuzas)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:01:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Mind altering drugs
Message-ID: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
knowing?




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Sep  6 20:00:41 2000
From: measl at mfn.org (Missouri FreeNet Administration)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:00:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
In-Reply-To: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Edward Kuzas wrote:

:Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
:knowing?

Assuming the molecular structure of the drug in question is sufficiently
aligned with the great harmonic convergence, it may be possible to
transmit it to an unsuspecting target via electomagnetic waves - for
instance, through a Webtv perhaps...

Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

--
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From bear at sonic.net  Wed Sep  6 22:12:29 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:12:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
In-Reply-To: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: 





On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Edward Kuzas wrote:

>Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
>knowing?

Yes. Some types of things can get into your clothes and transport 
across the skin barrier every time you put on a particular shirt 
There was a famous case involving PCP where this guy kept freaking 
out, for months, every time he put on a particular shirt.  The stuff 
doesn't wash out apparently.

Then, of course, there are intentional methods -- ever eaten a 
brownie when you hadn't been there to see it baked?  Ever had 
lunch with someone who was wearing a ring? Etc. 

				Bear




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep  6 19:22:53 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:22:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
References: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <39B6FBE6.E8F5175@acmenet.net>

Edward Kuzas wrote:
> 
> Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
> knowing?

Well, your father must have used _something_.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Wed Sep  6 19:26:14 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:26:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
In-Reply-To: EPKuzas@webtv.net's message of "Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:07:25 -0400"
References: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <841yyxj5un.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

EPKuzas at webtv.net (Edward Kuzas) writes:

> Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
> knowing?

Of course. What a silly question. How else can we explain you?





From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep  6 19:51:17 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:51:17 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39B6B77A.3CFD6ED2@cyberspace.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906194734.00808100@pop.sprynet.com>

At 09:08 PM 9/6/00 -0400, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>initial permutations to be in the same category as Blowfish's (and 
>derivative algorithm's) time consuming key expansion phase- a neat 
>"trick" that does not improve theoretical security but significantly 
>increases the difficulty of real world attacks.

They do an *excellent* job of that but hamper key agility, 
unless you do something like page state.













  








From liveupdate at reply.intevo.com  Wed Sep  6 23:24:20 2000
From: liveupdate at reply.intevo.com (LiveUpdate News)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:24:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Crescendo News - September 2000
Message-ID: <200009070624.XAA04232@toad.com>

Dear Crescendo User,

CRESCENDO INTERNET MUSIC NEWS
September 2000

With its fresh crisp air, autumn in New England is a season 
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   * Crescendo 5.1 Released
   * Featured artist: "Coppertree"
   * Featured Crescendo Site
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Crescendo Version 5.1 Released
http://url.intevo.com/U1-3001-1-1-9-528151-A63578

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---------------------------------------------------------------

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---------------------------------------------------------------

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Copyright (c) 2000 LiveUpdate, All Rights Reserved




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Sep  6 23:38:25 2000
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:38:25 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: 'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no
  safeguards
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000906233251.024b6c10@shell11.ba.best.com>

     --
At 10:19 AM 9/7/2000 +1100, Julian Assange wrote:
 > 'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no safeguards
 >
 > [...]
 >
 > "Now, in a stunning overnight turnaround, the ALP has accepted a new
 > government amendment that would allow troops to be used against
 > civilians when there is 'serious damage to property'.

In recent years US troops have been trained with some namby pamby stuff 
about minimizing civilian casualties.  Australian troops are not trained 
like that. They are trained that their first priority is to blow the enemy 
away as fast as possible, their second priority is to stay alive in order 
to blow away more enemy in future, and if they have any time and energy 
left over after the first two priorities, they might think about minimizing 
damage to civilians caught in the middle.

While that is sound training for war, it is rather poor training for 
keeping order in peacetime.

It is interesting that this draconian legislation follows rapidly upon 
draconian anti gun legislation.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      pMuYV7Kw9wKKgpcahfMHaGITuH/HCY9NMn9G40Ku
      4mXcjiflvefOahXTmpWXKYwk+kLU5TBASVidytaZL




From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Wed Sep  6 17:09:14 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: 7 Sep 2000 00:09:14 -0000
Subject: CDR: tight group from nowhere
Message-ID: 

DoS attacks before internet worked for Catalonians:

http://www.zolatimes.com/V4.36/the_day.html

Internet does give some advantage:

Sync message goes out with the time (www, usenet, maillists).
Action takes place in the meatspace (we flush toilets and turn
on hemp lights at the right moments.)

There is NO WAY to trace this back to the distributed agents -
that is, unless your neighbour reports unusual light activity :-)

Something similar happened some 7-8 yrs back in the Bay Area
where drivers (on 101, I think) did 55mph in sync in all
lanes, creating chaos.

We are far too stuck to internet as communication medium.

Flushing the shit can also deliver the message,






From all at biosys.net  Wed Sep  6 21:45:04 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 00:45:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

First, I gotta say.. only been back on the list a day or two and the Signal 
to Noise seems to have gotten nearly out of hand.. I don't know what 
cypherpunks has to do with trying to listen in on cordless phone calls, or 
how to give someone drugs.. but anyway.. something on topic.. :)

I wrote a UDP based encrypted chat program a while back.. it worked well, 
but I saw the following drawbacks..

1) It used secret keys that had to be shared beforehand through a prior 
secure channel.
2) Being UDP based, I was forced to operate the ciphers in ECB instead of 
CBC mode, just in case any of the packets got lost.

To make the application more robust, I have started rewriting it to use TCP 
instead.  It is still a peer-peer network, requiring no dedicated servers.. 
while this increases overhead somewhat, I think it's worth it to keep the 
system from relying on one particular server, or a group of them.  You 
simply add the IP of the people you want to receive your messages to your 
list.  If someone adds you, when you receive a message from them, it adds 
them to your list automatically.  Downside is currently that everyone must 
maintain an active TCP connection to everyone else.. but it's not meant to 
be a replacement for IRC or anything like that, just a secure way to chat 
and transfer other data such as files or voice.

I have also decided to get rid of the key sharing mechanism, and instead 
utilize D/H to generate a KEK, then transfer a 4096bit data block from the 
initiating client to the serving client (I'll refer to them as C/S where 
their role is appropriate, but keep in mind there is no real "server".. 
much like gnutella or similar systems, every client is a server, and every 
server a client.) to serve as a master key.  The first N bits are used 
depending on which cipher is negotiated/selected, up to the max supported 
by my implementation of each cipher.

Now, my main question about D/H is quite simple.. what is considered a 
"good" size for the prime and primitive used, in bits?  Obviously something 
somewhat large, but how large is large enough?  64bits?  Less or more?  I 
can't find much information on this anywhere, and my copy of Applied 
Cryptography (2nd ed.) while covering D/H in detail, doesn't even mention this.

An aside is that I'm writing the application in Delphi 5, and the maximum 
native supported integer sizes are 32bit unsigned, and 64bit signed.. I've 
been writing a math library of my own in assembler that at compile time 
will allow you to specify the maximum bitsize you want it to support, but 
this is proving to be a mind-numbing task.. ;)  If anyone is familiar with 
Delphi and has any libraries like this already, I'd much appreciate hearing 
about them.. or even some a web resource or paper Real Book (tm) resource 
that explains in abstract terms how to go about something like this would 
be appreciated.

I had more to write.. but I'm exhausted.. fun crypting to everyone.. ;)


- -------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
- -Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.

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=kn5M
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From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Sep  6 22:21:51 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 01:21:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Asymmetric wrote:

> Now, my main question about D/H is quite simple.. what is considered a 
> "good" size for the prime and primitive used, in bits?  Obviously something 
> somewhat large, but how large is large enough?  64bits?  Less or more?  I 
> can't find much information on this anywhere, and my copy of Applied 
> Cryptography (2nd ed.) while covering D/H in detail, doesn't even mention this.

The modulus should be rather large -- something like 512 or 1024 bits.
With 64 bits, someone can use Pollard's method to find discrete logs in
roughly 2^32 trials, which is Bad. Taking discrete logs for larger primes
requires a variant of the number field sieve; the largest announced
modulus for which I'm aware of this being done is 300-400 bits, but it
hasn't received as much attention as factoring. 

I think www.cryptosavvy.com has some key length recommendations. You might
also check the April RSA Data Security Bulletin for Bob Silverman's
dispute of their model. The storage problem he mentions is actually worse
for discrete logs; while the vectors involved in the final step of
factoring are 0-1, the vectors in the final stage of discrete log finding
have full-size group elements and are therefore harder to store and
manipulate.

The size of the generator is a different issue. I don't see any reason why
a small size generator would hurt...but I haven't thought about it very
much. Note that you need the factors of p-1 in order to test if
something's a generator, which means you may want to look into Maurer or
Mihailescu's methods for prime generation. (Mihailescu has a paper on
the subject aimed at implementors at 
http://www.inf.ethz.ch/~mihailes/papers/primgen.ps )

> Delphi and has any libraries like this already, I'd much appreciate hearing 
> about them.. or even some a web resource or paper Real Book (tm) resource 
> that explains in abstract terms how to go about something like this would 
> be appreciated.

It was after my time, but the AP Computer Science curriculum now has a
BigInteger library as its "case study." :-)

A web search turned up 
http://www.efg2.com/lab/library/Delphi/MathFunctions/Cryptography.htm

which has, among other things, a Pascal header for the Gnu MP library. 

-David




From all at biosys.net  Wed Sep  6 22:39:28 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 01:39:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907012824.00af9a50@mail.megapathdsl.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 01:21 09/07/2000 -0400, dmolnar wrote:


>The modulus should be rather large -- something like 512 or 1024 bits.
>With 64 bits, someone can use Pollard's method to find discrete logs in
>roughly 2^32 trials, which is Bad. Taking discrete logs for larger primes
>requires a variant of the number field sieve; the largest announced
>modulus for which I'm aware of this being done is 300-400 bits, but it
>hasn't received as much attention as factoring.

I figured it would be something of that nature.. hence the math library I 
was working on.. :)


>I think www.cryptosavvy.com has some key length recommendations. You might

Thanks for the link...

>The size of the generator is a different issue. I don't see any reason why
>a small size generator would hurt...but I haven't thought about it very
>much. Note that you need the factors of p-1 in order to test if
>something's a generator, which means you may want to look into Maurer or
>Mihailescu's methods for prime generation. (Mihailescu has a paper on
>the subject aimed at implementors at
>http://www.inf.ethz.ch/~mihailes/papers/primgen.ps )

Ah.. I have implemented a sieve of eros..whatever his name is.. ;)  for 
finding smaller primes.. it runs very fast, the old rules don't apply so 
much anymore, memory footprint being more a concern then speed I've noticed 
so far.. moving the found primes into a sparse array as you find them and 
then reusing the memory is one way around that.. even my quickly written 
implementation takes negligible time to find all the primes within 16 
bits.. but I've been looking at rabin-miller and some other methods as 
well.  I'll take a look at that link, thanks.. reason again for the math 
library.. my stuff (obviously) falls apart > 32bits since my library for 
handling larger numbers is unfinished.


>It was after my time, but the AP Computer Science curriculum now has a
>BigInteger library as its "case study." :-)
>
>A web search turned up
>http://www.efg2.com/lab/library/Delphi/MathFunctions/Cryptography.htm
>
>which has, among other things, a Pascal header for the Gnu MP library.

Ah cool.. I've heard very good things about GMP and had been thinking about 
ways to implement it.. could solve all my problems in one fell swoop. :)  I 
(for reasons that should be obvious) felt that writing the routines myself 
(with extensive testing) would be preferable, so I could avoid licensing 
issues as well as bugs/backdoors, but I'll look into this..  Thanks for the 
quick response.. the application will of course be available to anyone who 
wants it once finished.. and once Borland finishes Kylix, should compile 
nicely on the various x86 *nixes out there..


- -------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
- -Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQA/AwUBObcqEGvp1znMxX/XEQLaYQCgxBxiiYTY2OHcVgso4Iaqy7PYucAAniM9
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=TL/e
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From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Sep  6 23:07:37 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 02:07:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907012824.00af9a50@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Asymmetric wrote:

> >Mihailescu's methods for prime generation. (Mihailescu has a paper on
> >the subject aimed at implementors at
> >http://www.inf.ethz.ch/~mihailes/papers/primgen.ps )
> 
> Ah.. I have implemented a sieve of eros..whatever his name is.. ;)  for 

Erastothenes, I think. 
I don't know what a sieve of eros is. I think I'd like to try one
sometime. :>

> finding smaller primes.. it runs very fast, the old rules don't apply so 
> much anymore, memory footprint being more a concern then speed I've noticed 
> so far.. moving the found primes into a sparse array as you find them and 
> then reusing the memory is one way around that.. even my quickly written 
> implementation takes negligible time to find all the primes within 16 
> bits.. 

Right - I think you may find that this slows down a bit at the 500-bit
range. Still, there are supposed to be ways to use sieving in conjunction
with random search to speed up prime generation. 

>but I've been looking at rabin-miller and some other methods as 
> well.  I'll take a look at that link, thanks.. reason again for the math 
> library.. my stuff (obviously) falls apart > 32bits since my library for 
> handling larger numbers is unfinished.

Once  you have the primitives, Rabin-Miller is straightforward to
implement from the Handbook of Applied Cryptograpy. I was surprised at how
easy it was...

Another nice trick -- compute the product of the first 1000 primes or so.
Take the GCD of this product and a candidate number. Eliminates candidates
with small prime factors and often faster than trial division.  

> (for reasons that should be obvious) felt that writing the routines myself 
> (with extensive testing) would be preferable, so I could avoid licensing 
> issues as well as bugs/backdoors, but I'll look into this..  Thanks for the 

Backdoors are your responsibility with GMP, so no worries, right. :). It
is GPL'd, though, so be careful. 

> quick response.. the application will of course be available to anyone who 
> wants it once finished.. and once Borland finishes Kylix, should compile 
> nicely on the various x86 *nixes out there..

Looking forward to it. 

-David




From Dave_Janz9909 at indiatimes.com  Wed Sep  6 23:09:16 2000
From: Dave_Janz9909 at indiatimes.com (Dave_Janz9909 at indiatimes.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 02:09:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Information You Requested
Message-ID: 


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To be removed send email to hulorg at yahoo.com





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Wed Sep  6 17:25:01 2000
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 02:25:01 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: 'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no safeguards
Message-ID: <204df589a3daa76d17b4ef5b7c224789@remailer.privacy.at>

On 07 Sep 2000, Julian Assange wrote:

> "The bill will now pass into law with no sunset clause, and no real
> safeguard that would prevent troops being used on strikers and peaceful
> protestors

Unrestricted, unregulated private ownership of firearms is the only
effective "safeguard."

This is a textbook example of why the right of the shee^H^H^H^H citizenry
to keep and bear arms is crucial to the maintenance of a free society.




From newlists at postmark.net  Thu Sep  7 03:08:04 2000
From: newlists at postmark.net (newlists at postmark.net)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 03:08:04
Subject: CDR: Make Your Advertising Easy! Fresh Opp-Seek Lists.. New list 9-06-2000!
Message-ID: <200009070437.VAA18336@cyberpass.net>


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*********************************************************
You are receiving this letter because you posted to on of
our FFA pages, or Free Classified sites, which added you
to one of our lists. We run upwards of 50 sites, any of
which may have added you to our list. If you do not 
remember posting it may be because you used an Automated 
FFA or Classified Ad Posting program or website.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From all at biosys.net  Thu Sep  7 01:31:12 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 04:31:12 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907012824.00af9a50@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907041059.00b0a4e0@mail.megapathdsl.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 02:07 09/07/2000 -0400, dmolnar wrote:

>Erastothenes, I think.
>I don't know what a sieve of eros is. I think I'd like to try one
>sometime. :>

Hah yeah that spelling looks right.. it's really pretty elegant, and was 
considered at the time of the writing of AC 2nd ed. to be faster for 
numbers of 100 digits or less.. since a base-10 digit is roughly 3.5 bits, 
that should be faster than say the general number sieve for numbers up to 
about 350 bits.

It works by first making an array of bits, all set to true, that represent 
all the numbers from 2 - X, where X is the last number you want to test for 
primeness.  You loop through the array from begining to end.. for each bit 
you find set, you set all multiples of that number up to X off.  This 
results in every multiple of every prime (which is to say, every composite 
number) being marked "false" in the array.  When finished, you have an 
array of bits where an on bit represents a prime.  The storage issue 
results because I currently store an array of bytes instead of an array of 
bits.. so to test the first ~ 16 million numbers (24 bits) requires about 
16 meg of storage.  That would drop to 2 meg if I rewrote it to be a 
bit-array, which I intend to do.. and it would only take N bytes of memory 
if instead implemented as a sparse array of bytes, where N = the number of 
primes from start to finish of your range.


>Right - I think you may find that this slows down a bit at the 500-bit
>range. Still, there are supposed to be ways to use sieving in conjunction
>with random search to speed up prime generation.

Probably would slow down some around 512bits.. which should represent 
numbers about 147 base-10 digits.


>Once  you have the primitives, Rabin-Miller is straightforward to
>implement from the Handbook of Applied Cryptograpy. I was surprised at how
>easy it was...

I expect it'll be easier when I look at it again.. it still looks a bit 
messy though.  AC 2nd ed describes rabin-miller as follows, p260, pp2..

(p = prime)

1. Calculate b, where b is the number of times that 2 divides into p - 1.
2. Calculate m, such that p = 1 + 2^b * m.
3. Choose a random number "a" such that "a" is less than "p".
4. Set j = 0 and set z = a^m mod p.
5. if z = 1, or z = p - 1, then p passes and may be prime.
6. if j > 0 and z = 1, then p is not prime.
7. set j = j + 1.  If j < b and z != p - 1, set z = z^2 mod p, and go back 
to 6.  If z = p - 1, then p passes the test and may be prime.
8. If j = b, and z != p - 1, then p is not prime.

I think I need to just be a bit less tired before I can parse that 
efficiently into code.. :)


>Another nice trick -- compute the product of the first 1000 primes or so.
>Take the GCD of this product and a candidate number. Eliminates candidates
>with small prime factors and often faster than trial division.

Do you mean calculate each product of two of the first 1000 primes?  (i.e. 
2*3, 2*5, 2*7... 5*7...) etc? for each possible pair?


>Backdoors are your responsibility with GMP, so no worries, right. :). It
>is GPL'd, though, so be careful.

Yeah.. hadn't decided if I was going to open source it or not.. but I 
suppose putting it under the GPL myself does prevent anyone else from 
making money off my work.. ;)  I'm not looking to make any money from this 
product, but I certainly don't want anyone else making money off my hard 
work either.  I need to read the GPL or GLPL closely.. whichever GMP is under.


>Looking forward to it.

Cool.. thanks for the help and links again.. tried to sleep for the past 
two or three hours, couldn't.. I'm back up and at it. ;)


- -------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
- -Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQA/AwUBObdSUGvp1znMxX/XEQKL+wCghGPE649K/LKbWFqyiVU9EeRDVywAn2JA
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From webmaster at troppolotto.com  Wed Sep  6 22:26:11 2000
From: webmaster at troppolotto.com (TroppoLotto)
Date: 7 Sep 2000 05:26:11 -0000
Subject: CDR: This might be the day...
Message-ID: <20000907052611.34102.qmail@qm-3.troppolotto.com>

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Brought to you by http://www.trancos.com
1999-2000 Trancos, Inc. All Rights Reserved.




From allyn at well.com  Thu Sep  7 06:11:42 2000
From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:11:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration 9/11 7:30pm SFO Hyatt
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000906172950.00795830@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


Is there anything planned for up here in Seattle?

Mark





From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep  7 03:15:13 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:15:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com> 
Message-ID: <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
> You're missing a more important point: there is no correlation
> between who is using the service or product and who is paying the tax.
> 
> Taxing a computer used for video game playing, for example, when
> absolutely no "piracy" is happening from that computer. An overly
> wide net.
> 
> Governments like this sort of thing, however. Tax everyone, then
> spend the revenues as they wish.

not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
re-distributes these things.

the system has been the subject of criticism often, but works
surprisingly well. that might be because the article doesn't mention the
OTHER side of it. for example, paying a fixed sum to GEMA enables you to
play music in public (say, as a shop owner in your shop) without having
to deal with the individual artists and labels for "broadcasting
rights". it greatly simplifies things for small shops.





From mdpopescu at geocities.com  Thu Sep  7 06:34:54 2000
From: mdpopescu at geocities.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:34:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <008901c018d0$c6020820$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>



From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Thu Sep  7 09:36:00 2000
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:36 AM
Subject: why get a loan
Message-ID: 


        Dear Friend:

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------

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            6.... Insert  YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

     PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY !
     =========================================================

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           ============================================
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            Your total income in this example is:
            1..... $50         +
            2..... $500       +
            3..... $5,000    +
            4..... $50,000  +
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            HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
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         METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
         ===================================================
            Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are
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            For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report
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        _____________________      AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________

         ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.

         Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
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==============================================

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Order Report # 1 from:

James L Kenny
1621 May Pl. N.E.
Canton, Ohio 44705-1783
U.S.A.

 __________________________________________________

REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net''
Order Report # 2 from :

Paul Bradley
1802 Red Canyon Rd.
Canon City, CO  81212
U.S.A. 

__________________________________________________

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_________________________________________________

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Order Report # 4 from:

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 ____________________________________________________

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Order Report # 5 from:

Alex Diamond
9903 Santa Monica Blvd;
Apt. # 405
Beverly Hills, Ca 90212
U.S.A.
         


	$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

         Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

         If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
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         After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that
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         YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for
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         THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER :  Every time your name is
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        ____________________________________________________

                  FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
                                                     PROGRAM:

          "You have just received information that can give you financial
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            So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
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                      ************** MORE  TESTIMONIALS  ****************

            '' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago.
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            total of $ 147,200.00   all cash!  I was shocked. I have
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                                                 Mitchell  Wolf,  M.D. ,
                                                 Chicago, Illinois

------------------------------------------------------------

            '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
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            I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box
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                                               Dan Sondstrom, Alberta,
                                                            Canada

-----------------------------------------------------------

            '' I had  received this program before. I deleted  it, but
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            one! I made more than  $490,000 on my first try  and all the
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                                   Susan De Suza,
                                    New York, N.Y.

                       ----------------------------------------------------

            '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
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            and by the end of third month my total cash count was 
            $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''.
                                               Fred Dellaca, Westport,
                                                          New Zealand

------------------------------------------------------------


        ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
        YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

=======================================================

If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

////////////////////////////////////////////////
ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE
//////////////////////////////////////////////

This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301.
per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to
you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by
sending a reply to :   Sophie530 at email.com  with the word Remove in the
subject line. This message is not intended for residents in the State of
Washington, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our
technical ability.


                 --------  T  H  E        E  N   D  ---------
>
>
>
>
>












 




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Sep  7 07:06:12 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:06:12 -0400 
Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Permutations in DES
Message-ID: 

My understanding is that the initial permutation, (which essentially
writes the 64 bits of key in a 8 x 8 block by column and row,
then reads it out by row and column) was included to simplify
early DES chip hardware. It has no impact on the security of 
the algorithm. If you know what you are doing, it does not effect 
key agility in software implementations. 

Peter Trei


> ----------
> From: 	juzam[SMTP:juzam at cyberspace.org]
> Reply To: 	juzam
> Sent: 	Wednesday, September 06, 2000 5:30 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: 	CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
> 
> according to applied cryptography, these permutaions do not effect the
> security of the algorithm, but i'm not sure about the purpose.
> 
> Augusto Jun Devegili wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I was just wondering... In DES, there's an Initial
> > Permutation (IP) on the plaintext, then 16 rounds, and
> > then the inverse permutation (IP^-1) of the result to
> > produce the ciphertext.
> >
> > How effective are these permutations? Do they really
> > add diffusion to the algorithm, considering that they
> > don't depend on the key?
> >
> > Someone told me that they are necessary to provide
> > reversibility to DES. Is this correct?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Devegili
> 
> --
> foo=====================
>    rim vilgalys
> 




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Sep  7 07:13:33 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:13:33 -0400 
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
Message-ID: 

	For brute force key search, the initial permution can effectively be
	factored out, and neither speeds nor impedes the search. This was
	done by all of the keysearch apps used in the RSA Symmetric DES
	Challenges.

	I (this was before I worked for RSA) also described an extremely
fast
	method to generate and iterate key schedules which was also widely
	used, reducing key schedule management from 90% of cpu to less
	than 10%.

	Peter Trei

> ----------
> From: 	Kevin Elliott[SMTP:k-elliott at wiu.edu]
> 
> At 17:30 -0400 9/6/00, juzam wrote:
> >according to applied cryptography, these permutaions do not effect the
> >security of the algorithm, but i'm not sure about the purpose.
> 
> As I recall the basic purpose was to make it slow in software meaning 
> that software cracking apps were/are at a severe disadvantage vs. 
> hardware implementations.  It would be interesting to see how much 
> longer that extended DES's effective lifetime.   I would consider the 
> initial permutations to be in the same category as Blowfish's (and 
> derivative algorithm's) time consuming key expansion phase- a neat 
> "trick" that does not improve theoretical security but significantly 
> increases the difficulty of real world attacks.
> -- 
> 
> Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
> 




From proff at iq.org  Wed Sep  6 16:19:28 2000
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: 07 Sep 2000 10:19:28 +1100
Subject: CDR: 'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no safeguards
Message-ID: 


Tuesday, 5 September 2000

New ALP Sell-Out Completes Capitulation
on Defence Amendment Bill

'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no safeguards

The ALP today completed its capitulation to the Government by accepting new
Government amendments to Defence Legislation Amendment (Aid to Civilian
Authorities) Bill, Greens Senator Bob Brown said today.

"The ALP has refused to accept Greens amendments that would guarantee troops
could never be called out against a peaceful protest or industrial dispute,"
Senator Brown said. 

"On top of that they have watered down their already weak amendments.
Previously the ALP amendment had said that once called out the troops could
not be used unless there was 'a direct and immediate threat of death or
serious injury'.  These words have been replaced by "reasonable likelihood
of death or serious injury".

"Now, in a stunning overnight turnaround, the ALP has accepted a new
government amendment that would allow troops to be used against civilians
when there is 'serious damage to property'.  This gives the government and
military free reign to call out the troops because in almost every situation
'serious damage to property' could be envisaged. 

"This is a backflip on sell-out on back-down. Labor has failed to defend a
century of law and convention in Australia which has prevented the Defence
forces from being involved in armed conflict with civilians.

"The bill will now pass into law with no sunset clause, and no real
safeguard that would prevent troops being used on strikers and peaceful
protestors

Further information: Ben Oquist 02 62773170 or 0419704095


----------------------------------------------
Ben Oquist
Australian Greens Senator Bob Brown
Parliament House, Canberra 2600
Australia
+61 2 62773170 ph
+61 2 62773185 fx
0419704095 mobile
http://www.greens.org.au/bobbrown




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Sep  7 07:21:29 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:21:29 -0400 
Subject: CDR: RE: RE: Re: Permutations in DES
Message-ID: 



> ----------
> From: 	Trei, Peter
> Reply To: 	Trei, Peter
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 07, 2000 10:06 AM
> To: 	cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; 'juzam'
> Subject: 	CDR: RE: Re: Permutations in DES
> 
> My understanding is that the initial permutation, (which essentially
> writes the 64 bits of key in a 8 x 8 block by column and row,
                          ^ replace 'key' with 'data'. mea culpa  -pt
> then reads it out by row and column) was included to simplify
> early DES chip hardware. It has no impact on the security of 
> the algorithm. If you know what you are doing, it does not effect 
> key agility in software implementations. 
> 
> Peter Trei
> 




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Sep  7 07:59:23 2000
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:59:23 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
In-Reply-To: <841yyxj5un.fsf@athena.dhis.org>; from marshall@athena.net.dhis.org on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:26:14PM -0400
References: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <841yyxj5un.fsf@athena.dhis.org>
Message-ID: <20000907105904.G16946@ils.unc.edu>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:26:14PM -0400, David Marshall wrote:
> 
> EPKuzas at webtv.net (Edward Kuzas) writes:
> 
> > Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
> > knowing?
> 
> Of course. What a silly question. How else can we explain you?

In fact, most contemporary mind-altering drugs are distributed
through new media outlets, such as WebTV.

  -- Greg





From jburnes at savvis.net  Thu Sep  7 09:13:22 2000
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:13:22 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>  <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <00090711115800.26310@reality.eng.savvis.net>

On Thu, 07 Sep 2000, Tom Vogt wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> >
> > Governments like this sort of thing, however. Tax everyone, then
> > spend the revenues as they wish.
>
> not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
> a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
> re-distributes these things.
>
> the system has been the subject of criticism often, but works
> surprisingly well. that might be because the article doesn't mention the
> OTHER side of it. for example, paying a fixed sum to GEMA enables you to
> play music in public (say, as a shop owner in your shop) without having
> to deal with the individual artists and labels for "broadcasting
> rights". it greatly simplifies things for small shops.

Thats no diffferent than BMI or ASCAP here in the states.  The
only difference is that here that is a completely private transaction.
No government involvement or interference necessary or desired.

Having the government make it a tax is a little too much like
fascism.  Correction, its exactly like fascism.

Now that the US Federal government wouldn't try it. 

jim

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural





From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep  7 03:16:02 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 12:16:02 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Good work by FBI and SEC on Emulex fraud case
References: <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
	 
	 <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
	 <3.0.5.32.20000906114435.009714f0@idiom.com> 
Message-ID: <39B76AE2.EF7068DB@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
> At 11:44 AM -0700 9/6/00, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >How often do people check signatures?
> >If they check them, and they pass, how often do they check keys?

doesn't matter. it's POSSIBLE, that's what is important. the first time
you lose a million bucks at the exchange because you didn't check the
sig and someone else did, you'll start doing it.


> Sounds fair to me. Sounds like evolution in action.

definitely. I already suggested that my company sign PRs.




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep  7 04:10:17 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 13:10:17 +0200
Subject: CDR: segfault story on RSA
Message-ID: <39B77799.44467AB0@ricardo.de>


I think this guy put it much better than the official press release. :)



http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=39b6e1b5-0685fba0




From brainless at casinoaward.com  Thu Sep  7 13:13:54 2000
From: brainless at casinoaward.com (brainless at casinoaward.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:13:54
Subject: CDR: Re: My sister
Message-ID: <404.515503.595470@casinoaward.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 2049 bytes
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URL: 

From brflgnk at cotse.com  Thu Sep  7 10:58:38 2000
From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:58:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: FBI "rejects" student profiling
Message-ID: <968349323.39b7d68bc5bd3@webmail.cotse.com>

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23462-2000Sep6.html

Of interest:  though the unnamed spokesman asserted that the FBI is opposed to 
profiling students to detect potential school violence, the article still 
includes a laundry list of "warning signs": "The FBI provided a list of clues to 
look for after a student has made a violent threat."

"Unsupervised" computer and Internet access is mentioned twice.

Soon to come:  "We cannot be so fixated on the right to free access to 
information..."  For the chiiilldren, of course!





From frissell at panix.com  Thu Sep  7 11:38:18 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:38:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907143124.036959c0@popserver.panix.com>

At 09:58 AM 9/5/00 -0400, TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com wrote:
>     what does this mean????


There was a young lawyer named Rex
Who had a diminutive instrument of sex
Charged with indecent exposure
He pleaded with composure
"De minimus non curat lex"

"DE MINIMUS NON CURAT LEX-Literally, "The law does not cure trifles." The 
rule that a minimal or trifling injury to a person, property, or rights 
does not justify the time and trouble of a lawsuit, and that the courts 
will refuse to hear such a suit. See damnum absque injuria."

http://www.ohiobar.org/public/law&you/glossary.html#d

DCF

----
"Di-electrical materialism dooms the Ancien Regime, the Treaty of 
Westphalia, the Communist International, the whole shooting match"




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep  7 15:08:49 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 15:08:49 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>

At 12:45 AM 9/7/00 -0400, Asymmetric wrote   :
>To make the application more robust, I have started rewriting it to use TCP 
>instead.  It is still a peer-peer network, requiring no dedicated servers.. 
>while this increases overhead somewhat, I think it's worth it to keep the 
>system from relying on one particular server, or a group of them.  

Servers are the price of scalability.  The nice thing about ICQ
and similar instant messaging applications, unlike IRC,
is that the server only tracks who's on and where, and doesn't carry
the actual communication traffic between users.  Obviously this is
for one-to-one conversations between two users rather than IRC's
everybody-to-everybody model.  Another option in this space is the
everybody's-a-server model, like Usenet uses.
Servers also offer the benefit that it's harder to tell
who's talking to whom, unlike point-to-point conversations,
but they do cause risks from compromise and downtime.

>everyone must maintain an active TCP connection to everyone else.. 

That's a MAJOR downside.  Most operating system and programming environments
limit how many open TCP connections you can keep, typically <20,
so this limits the sizes of communities you can maintain.
Also, if you have TCP connections you need to write code to handle
having them go up and down at unplanned times,
while UDP just dribbles in.
On the other hand, TCP sessions are good for data transfer.
Voice over TCP is a sketchier issue - the problem is that
the best way to handle lost voice packets is just to ignore the noise,
as opposed to waiting for the retransmission to arrive and
speeding up or delaying talk until you've caught up.

Your issues about ECB mode with UDP are good, though.
The alternative is to use CBC mode and trash the next couple of packets
after the lost/damaged one - CBC does self-recover.
This is ok for voice; may or may not be for chat.

>I have also decided to get rid of the key sharing mechanism, and instead 
>utilize D/H to generate a KEK, then transfer a 4096bit data block from the 
>initiating client to the serving client .....
>Now, my main question about D/H is quite simple.. what is considered a 
>"good" size for the prime and primitive used, in bits?  

The rule of thumb is that you need at least twice as many bits of
DH as you need of secure session key for your application, and you need
at least as many bits of DH as you would need for RSA.
You wouldn't want to use fewer than 1024 bits of RSA these days,
so don't use fewer than 1024 bits of DH.  That's enough for multiple
128-bit keys.
There are various format proposals for turning the DH key into a session key,
like using Hash(DHKey,YourIP,TheirIP,maybe-a-counter-or-Salt).
4096 may be overkill, but it depends a lot on how often you'll be rekeying
and how long you're willing to watch the CPU crunch to set up a connection.

The bigger risk, though, is the quality of random numbers available 
for seeding your DH keys.  Don't even DREAM of using Delphi's builtins,
if it has them - go find good crypto-quality-randomness work to reuse,
unless you know you'll only run on Linux where there's /dev/random.
At least use sound-card noise or user-entered mouse tracks to help.
Lots of "secure" systems have been cracked by cracking their random seeds.

If you don't have any other keying mechanism, you need to worry about
man-in-the-middle attacks.  A simple approach is to use PGP public keys
to sign the keyparts; that lets you reuse all the PGP infrastructure.
There are alternatives, at least for voice, like reading the bits of the 
shared keys to each other.  See the PGPFONE docs for much discussion on 
user interfaces - and think about how much of their code you can rip
off\\\\\\ reuse.

Also read the Photuris internet drafts - there's a lot of experience
on denial-of-service attacks that they've incorporated,
and it doesn't take much work to prevent most of them.

>An aside is that I'm writing the application in Delphi 5, and the maximum 
>native supported integer sizes are 32bit unsigned, and 64bit signed.. I've 
>been writing a math library of my own in assembler that at compile time 
>will allow you to specify the maximum bitsize you want it to support, but 
>this is proving to be a mind-numbing task.. ;)  

Gak!  Don't do something that ugly.  There are lots of math libraries
available,
such as the GMP Gnu Multiple Precision integer package.  Depending on how
Delphi feels about calling C routines, the most you should need to write
in assembler are some little wrappers to format the function calls,
and hopefully you don't need to do that.

Also, some versions of the RSAREF libraries had Diffie-Hellmann code in them,
as well as multiple-precision integers.


Other chat and messaging systems have been written.
Check out GALE at gale.org, and look through the Cypherpunks archives
for encrypted  IRC and DCC variants.  Don't let that stop you from coding,
but do steal code rather that writing from scratch when you can.


> First, I gotta say.. only been back on the list a day or two and the Signal 
> to Noise seems to have gotten nearly out of hand.. I don't know what 
> cypherpunks has to do with trying to listen in on cordless phone calls, or 
> how to give someone drugs.. but anyway.. something on topic.. :)

It's been high for years - thanks for adding Signal :-)

Listening in on cordless phones can be a legitimate cpunks kind of topic,
though it's been discussed in the past and this was probably just a troll
or a clueless newbie.  As far as giving people drugs, the standard
Cypherpunks approach is to say "That's a hardware problem" and then
discuss whose Palm-pilot digicash system you can use for payment, 
though there has also been crypto protocol work like
"The Cocaine Auction Protocol" on how suppliers and consumers can
find each other without interference by non-participants,
or building conferencing systems for ravers where the server operator
provably doesn't have anything subpoenable that would indicate which
chatters were discussing where to get drug X at event Y.
(There are also noisier Cypherpunks approaches to drugs, like saying
"Jim, yer off yer medication again" or "smells good, got any more?" or
"He's obviously smoking something *very* good and not sharing" or 
"No, in a geodesic gift economy you really *might not* charge for drugs." :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Sep  7 12:39:51 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:39:51 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000907075006.00813100@pop.sprynet.com>

At 06:15 AM 9/7/00 -0400, Tom Vogt wrote:
>not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
>a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
>re-distributes these things.
>

So if you don't pay GEMA who *are* those folks with the guns? 









  








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Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:05:39
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200009080247.TAA27903@toad.com>


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From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Sep  7 13:07:54 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:07:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Hardware support for trusted pc 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000907130625.00804ce0@pop.sprynet.com>


Basically next year you could get a motherboard with a security module
onboard.  Which is both your friend, and not.

The last EETimes-print-edition had an article with *much* more info but I
found the following online.  You can comment on the www.trustedpc.org
stuff until October, on their site; they have whitepapers.  




Coprocessors Move
              Security Onto PC
              Motherboards
              (09/05/00, 6:51 p.m. ET) By Junko Yoshida , EE Times 

              SAN MATEO, Calif. -- Responding to
              industry demand for better built-in
              security, vendors of PC chips and
              smart-card ICs are racing to develop
              security coprocessors that mount on a PC
              motherboard. 

              Architectural approaches vary, but
              suppliers agree that this new design socket
              will start showing up in motherboards as
              early as the middle of next year. 

              Integrating a security chip makes it
              possible "to view the PC as an endpoint
              for the delivery of goods and services" in
              the digital economy, said Geoffrey
              Strongin, platform security architect at
              Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (stock:
              AMD), Sunnyvale, Calif. 

              AMD is one of the PC chip makers
              readying a security device. 

              The trend is to move "core security and
              e-commerce functions out to the edge of
              the Internet, and place them in all endpoint
              devices including the user's PC,"
              concurred Steven Sprague, president and
              chief executive officer at Wave Systems
              Corp. (stock: WAVX), Lee, Mass., which
              fields the Embassy security chip and is
              working with AMD on a reference design.

              Promoters say that while much effort has
              gone into securing the network and the
              server-side infrastructure, until very
              recently the client has been overlooked.
              Thanks to advances in SSL software
              technology, the transmission of data
              across the Internet is more secure than
              ever. 

              But "vulnerability often exists at the PC
              and at the server," said Cees Jan Koomen,
              chairman of the board at security-chip
              vendor Pijnenburg Securealink, Vught,
              Netherlands, which is also developing a
              coprocessor. 

              "You need a cryptographic solution in
              hardware, placed at the server and PC
              terminal," he said. That way, "critical
              information, such as a key, is not available
              except inside the chip, while the hardware
              can accelerate the transaction speed." 

              Driving the security-coprocessor
              groundswell is an emerging specification
              being put together by the Trusted
              Computing Platform Alliance, an industry
              group founded by Compaq Computer
              Corp. (stock: CPQ), Houston;
              Hewlett-Packard Co. (stock: HWP), Palo
              Alto, Calif.; IBM Corp. (stock: IBM);
              Intel Corp. (stock: INTC), Santa Clara,
              Calif.; and Microsoft Corp. (stock:
              MSFT), Redmond, Wash.


http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20000905S0019







  








From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep  7 13:24:37 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:24:37 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000907131243.009d7620@idiom.com>

At 06:15 AM 9/7/00 -0400, Tom Vogt wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> You're missing a more important point: there is no correlation
>> between who is using the service or product and who is paying the tax.
>> 
>> Taxing a computer used for video game playing, for example, when
>> absolutely no "piracy" is happening from that computer. An overly
>> wide net.
>> 
>> Governments like this sort of thing, however. Tax everyone, then
>> spend the revenues as they wish.
>
>not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
>a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
>re-distributes these things.
>
>the system has been the subject of criticism often, but works
>surprisingly well. that might be because the article doesn't mention the
>OTHER side of it. for example, paying a fixed sum to GEMA enables you to
>play music in public (say, as a shop owner in your shop) without having
>to deal with the individual artists and labels for "broadcasting
>rights". it greatly simplifies things for small shops.

So does the proposed law require companies to pay GEMA
if they make or sell anything in this category?
If they don't pay, what happens?  Lawsuit?  Criminal prosecution?
I don't expect that US newspaper reporting gets the details precisely correct.

In the US, there are a couple of organizations, I think ASCAP and BMI,
	(American Society of Composers, Artists, and Performers)
that manage the intellectual property rights for most musicians.
If you play music on the radio or do other public performances,
you have to pay them their standard rates.  It's not mandatory -
there are non-ASCAP musicians, and radio stations (particularly
religious talk/music stations) that don't participate,
but if you play music from their members on the radio without
a license from them, they'll sue for copyright infringement.

(The main reason religious radio stations often don't use ASCAP
is that they're a niche market, but the payments to ASCAP
cover the whole market and are priced high enough that 
stations that don't play new commercial music
don't want to pay that much.  Of course, some of them just
don't like sex, drugs, and rock&roll :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From frissell at panix.com  Thu Sep  7 13:25:24 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 16:25:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: 2nd Quarter Taxpats List Up
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907161519.03695790@popserver.panix.com>

I posted the Fed's 2Q 2000 list of persons "who have chosen to 
expatriate".  Find it via:

http://www.frissell.com/taxpat/taxpats.html

Most interesting entry?  A "person" identified by the Feds as:

REINSURANCE, LTD..............  RBC.............

Presumably Royal Bank of Canada's reinsurance subsidiary in Ireland & Barbados:

http://www.rbcinsurance.ca/

I wonder if they know they've renounced?

DCF




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Sep  7 16:31:08 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:31:08 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Domestic surveillance: infilatration
Message-ID: 

>State police infiltrated protest groups, documents

Yes, I always ask myself which 4 cpunks are pigs at
the physical meetings. Hmmm, I guess those that never
missed one ?

Is there a test ?






From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Sep  7 14:21:26 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:21:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: IP protection 
Message-ID: 

http://www.vsia.com/
has a new paper on IP protection/detection
for cores.  

Table of Contents
VSIA IP Protection DWG 1
Scope 1
Introduction 1
Overview: Security Schemes 2
Deterrents 3
Patents 4
Copyright 4
Trade Secrets 4
Governing Law 4
Protection Mechanisms 5
Encryption 5
Hardware Protection 5
Chemical Protection 5
Detection Schemes 5
Tagging and Tracking 6
Digital Signatures 6
Digital Fingerprinting 6
Digital Watermarking 6
Noise Fingerprinting 7
Silicon Security 7
Programmable SRAM 7
Hard Mask 8
Anti-fuse programmable 8

In the area of electronic design, there are an estimated 100 reverse engineering shops in the US
approximately 70 percent of these are funded by government(s), and many of the techniques developed are
leaked, or even published, to the industry. The American Society for Industrial Secrets estimates that in the
US alone, trade secret theft is in excess of $2 billion per month.





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Sep  7 14:27:24 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:27:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Domestic surveillance: infilatration
Message-ID: 

State police infiltrated protest groups, documents
               show 

               Search-warrant affidavits reveal an undercover operation
               aimed at activists in Philadelphia for the GOP convention.

               By Linda K. Harris,, Craig R. McCoy and Thomas Ginsberg 
               INQUIRER STAFF WRITERS 

               State police undercover agents posing as demonstrators infiltrated activist
               groups planning the protests at the Republican National Convention,
               search-warrant documents made public yesterday showed.

               The undercover operation was detailed in legal documents filed Aug. 1
               by Philadelphia police seeking search warrants for a raid that day on a
               so-called "puppet warehouse" at 4100 Haverford Ave. in West
               Philadelphia. The documents were under a court seal until yesterday.

               About 75 people were arrested in the raid at the warehouse.

               The infiltration was immediately condemned yesterday by the state
               chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union and the city public
               defenders office.

               "Its worse than sleazeball," said Stefan Presser, the ACLUs legal
               director. "This is an outrage."

               Presser and other critics said dissenters needed the right to rally and to
               organize without fear that police were spying on them. They said they
               feared that police undercover officers could cross the line from
               intelligence-gatherers to provocateurs.

               "The legality and propriety of this potentially unconstitutional police
               conduct will certainly be an issue at the time of trial in all of these cases,"
               said Bradley Bridge, a senior lawyer with the defenders office.

               During the convention, Police Commissioner John F. Timoney
               repeatedly denied that police had engaged in infiltration. 

               "We had not infiltrated any group," he said the day after police raided the
               warehouse that had become one of several gathering spots for
               demonstrators during the convention.

               A spokeswoman for the commissioner said yesterday that he would have
               no comment. Lt. Susan Slawson, commander of the police public-affairs
               unit, said the commissioner could not talk because "its in litigation," a
               reference to a civil suit filed by demonstrators challenging their arrests
               during the protests.

               The use of state police as the undercover operatives took place as the
               city itself was restricted from using its own officers for such infiltration
               under a long-standing mayoral directive. The directive says the police
               may not infiltrate protest groups without the permission of the mayor, the
               managing director, and the police commissioner. 

               Mayor Street and City Solicitor Kenneth Trujillo declined comment
               yesterday.

               In seeking search warrants, police cited the work of the undercover
               operatives and detailed the intelligence gathered as the convention
               approached. The information is sketched out in affidavits of probable
               cause seeking warrants to search the warehouse, a U-Haul van, another
               van, and a pickup that police deemed suspicious.

               "This investigation is utilizing several Pennsylvania state troopers in an
               undercover capacity that have infiltrated several of the activist groups
               planning to commit numerous illegal direct actions," said one affidavit,
               signed by Detective William Egenlauf of the Philadelphia Police
               Department.

               It says the state police undercover operatives arrived at the warehouse on
               July 27, four days before the convention began. 

               Once there, the agents assisted "in the construction of props to be used
               during protests," the affidavit says.

               It says agents observed demonstrators building street barriers and "lock
               boxes," devices used by protesters to lock arms together when blocking
               streets. The papers say they overheard discussions that indicated
               protesters planned on "using the puppets . . . as blockades."

               The operatives also reported that "persons indicated they would be
               throwing pies, bottles and cardboard boxes filled with water at the
               police," the affidavits stated.

               Timoney held a news conference after the convention to display items
               seized during the raid, including two massive slingshots and chains
               wrapped in kerosene-soaked rags. Such devices were not used during the
               protests. Police also displayed seized "lock boxes." 

               Protesters have claimed the facility was nothing more than an art studio
               to fashion the puppets, floats and other props that were a hallmark of the
               demonstrations.

               Demonstrators also said their protests would be nonviolent, with illegal
               actions limited to the blockading of streets. Their lawyers have
               complained that numerous people were arrested in the warehouse
               without any proof they had any connection to illegal items.

               A key subject of controversy has been the raid on the warehouse.

               The request for the search warrants for the warehouse and lengthy
               affidavits detailing police intelligence-gathering was made yesterday, a
               month after Municipal Court President Judge Louis J. Presenza approved
               the searches.

               At the request of the District Attorneys Office, the warrants were sealed
               - barred from public inspection - for a month as soon as they were
               issued. The legal request for the warrants maintained that premature
               "disclosure of this affidavit could endanger the lives" of the undercover
               operatives.

               The affidavits cite sweeping police intelligence-gathering before the
               convention. This included monitoring of unspecified "electronic
               messages" sent among demonstrators, an apparent reference to police
               scrutiny of Web sites and electronic mailing lists.

               The police documents identified what investigators viewed as the key
               protest groups and their goals. Funds for one group "allegedly originate
               with Communist and leftist parties and from sympathetic trade unions" or
               from "the former Soviet-allied World Federation of Trade Unions,"
               according to the affidavits. 

               The affidavits go on to identify a handful of leaders of the various
               groups. Among those cited by name are John Sellers and Kate Sorensen,
               who were later arrested during demonstrations in Center City. The two
               were held in jail for days in lieu of $1 million bail - a sum critics said was
               extraordinary. In recent interviews after their release from jail, people
               who were inside the warehouse said that they had suspected early on that
               four undercover officers were working among them. Four men - known
               as Tim, Harry, George and Ryan - showed up together at 41st and
               Haverford about a week before the convention, introducing themselves
               as union carpenters from Wilkes-Barre who built stages, several
               demonstrators said.

               They were big, burly men who were older than most of the people
               working in the warehouse. They did not seem particularly political or
               well-informed, according to demonstrators. All four, however, were
               considered hard workers.

               Soliman Lawrence, 20, of Tallahassee, Fla., worked closely with the four
               on a massive satirical float built for a protest march.

               "They gained our trust," Lawrence said. "The fact that we didnt know
               them very well wasnt a big deal.

               "I remember thinking to myself, Why does everyone who looks like that
               have to be a cop? " Lawrence said. "I didnt like that I thought like that."










From apoio at giganetstore.com  Thu Sep  7 09:30:09 2000
From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:30:09 +0100
Subject: CDR: Experience the Legacy...
Message-ID: <039a60930160790WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore>

  
 
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vez.
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Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http://www.giganetstore.com  , 
ir retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e
novos serviços. 


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From larry_levinson at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 15:19:46 2000
From: larry_levinson at hotmail.com (Larry Levinson)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 18:19:46 EDT
Subject: CDR: membership
Message-ID: 

Hi. I'm trying to get information on NAMBLA and found your post on a random 
search. I'm having trouble locating NAMBLA. The website seems to have been 
stopped. I've written to someone else (a former secretary of the group) but 
thought I'd try you as well.

Some close friends suggested it as a good place to join, chat and make 
friends with similar interests.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Larry
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep  7 15:31:42 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:31:42 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Domestic surveillance: infilatration
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000907153128.009cd100@idiom.com>

At 05:27 PM 9/7/00 -0400, A. Melon wrote:
>               Search-warrant affidavits reveal an undercover operation
>               aimed at activists in Philadelphia for the GOP convention.
>               By Linda K. Harris,, Craig R. McCoy and Thomas Ginsberg 
>               INQUIRER STAFF WRITERS 

I can't say I'm surprised.  A decade or so ago, I went to an anarchist 
convention in Philly that was being watched by guys in suits in 
a big American car, who were identified as the Philly Police Red Squad.
I'd been surprised such things still existed.  We moved from the Quaker
school 
where the main convention was to an anarchist coffeeshop, and they reappeared.
(A Quaker friend of mine said "It's not a *real* anarchist meeting unless 
somebody brings them coffee and doughnuts." 
"Yeah, I offered to do that, but they'd brought their own thermos" :-)

>               The operatives also reported that "persons indicated they
would be
>               throwing pies, bottles and cardboard boxes filled with
water at the
>               police," the affidavits stated.
...
>               The request for the search warrants for the warehouse and
lengthy
>               affidavits detailing police intelligence-gathering was made
yesterday, a
>               month after Municipal Court President Judge Louis J.
Presenza approved
>               the searches.
>
>               At the request of the District Attorneys Office, the
warrants were sealed
>               - barred from public inspection - for a month as soon as
they were
>               issued. The legal request for the warrants maintained that
premature
>               "disclosure of this affidavit could endanger the lives" of
the undercover
>               operatives.

That sounds like a clear case of libel.  


>               The affidavits cite sweeping police intelligence-gathering
before the
>               convention. This included monitoring of unspecified
"electronic
>               messages" sent among demonstrators, an apparent reference
to police
>               scrutiny of Web sites and electronic mailing lists.

Any chance of the ECPA applying to this surveillance?

>               The police documents identified what investigators viewed
as the key
>               protest groups and their goals. Funds for one group
"allegedly originate
>               with Communist and leftist parties and from sympathetic
trade unions" or
>               from "the former Soviet-allied World Federation of Trade
Unions,"
>               according to the affidavits. 

Yup.  Red squads.  Nice that they can occasionally find a *real* Red to
be paranoid about, though I'm not sure where they can find a Communist
party with any funding.

>	 In recent interviews after their release from jail, people
>      who were inside the warehouse said that they had suspected early on
that
>      four undercover officers were working among them. Four men - known
>      as Tim, Harry, George and Ryan - showed up together at 41st and
>      Haverford about a week before the convention, introducing themselves
>      as union carpenters from Wilkes-Barre who built stages, several
>      demonstrators said.
...
>      Soliman Lawrence, 20, of Tallahassee, Fla., worked closely with the
four
>      on a massive satirical float built for a protest march.
>      "They gained our trust," Lawrence said. "The fact that we didnt know
>      them very well wasnt a big deal.
>      "I remember thinking to myself, Why does everyone who looks like that
>      have to be a cop? " Lawrence said. "I didnt like that I thought like
that."

PGP was of course designed for environments similar to this - 
people you've met in person introducing other people they've met in person,
particularly in the heavily infiltrated anti-nuke movement.
On the other hand, it was oriented towards True Names, where you're
usually pretty sure that if Bob signs a key for Carol who signs for Dave,
that you're really sending email to the Dave you thought you were sending
it to, 
though Dave may or may not be a Fed.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Sep  7 16:00:31 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:00:31 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: membership
References: 
Message-ID: <39B81DF6.CD39FA85@acmenet.net>

Larry Levinson wrote:
> 
> Hi. I'm trying to get information on NAMBLA and found your post on a random
> search. I'm having trouble locating NAMBLA. The website seems to have been
> stopped. I've written to someone else (a former secretary of the group) but
> thought I'd try you as well.
> 
> Some close friends suggested it as a good place to join, chat and make
> friends with similar interests.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Larry

Sorry, the National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes has
closed its membership for the year. Next year's open call for recruits
will be in April, location to be determined.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Thu Sep  7 17:02:18 2000
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:02:18 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 10:13 -0400 9/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote:
>	For brute force key search, the initial permution can effectively be
>	factored out, and neither speeds nor impedes the search. This was
>	done by all of the keysearch apps used in the RSA Symmetric DES
>	Challenges.

Do you have a link and/or expanded information on the specifics?

>	I (this was before I worked for RSA) also described an extremely
>fast
>	method to generate and iterate key schedules which was also widely
>	used, reducing key schedule management from 90% of cpu to less
>	than 10%.

Does this method work for apps that are generating and testing lots 
of keys or does the initial key generation step still have to be 
undertaken?  The whole point of the blowfish technique was to 
increase the attackers required effort.  It was basicly assumed that 
valid users would simply store the expanded key.  Is their a link 
somewhere to more information on this technique or could you expand 
on it?
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From petro at bounty.org  Thu Sep  7 20:03:43 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 20:03:43 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <00090711115800.26310@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
  <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
 <00090711115800.26310@reality.eng.savvis.net>
Message-ID: 

Jim:
>Having the government make it a tax is a little too much like
>fascism.  Correction, its exactly like fascism.
>
>Now that the US Federal government wouldn't try it.

	And the English say Americans don't understand sarcasm or irony.

	That *was* sarcasm, right?

	(btw, I'm stealing your .sig line).
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
"They can attempt to outlaw weapons but they can't outlaw the 
Platonic Ideal of a weapon and modern technology makes it absolutely 
trivial to convert a Platonic Ideal of a weapon into an actual weapon 
whenever one desires." 




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Sep  7 17:38:42 2000
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 20:38:42 -0400
Subject: CDR: Federal agencies share taxpayer info from Web sites
Message-ID: 

By LANCE GAY
Scripps Howard News Service
September 07, 2000

WASHINGTON - At least four federal agencies are sharing taxpayer data they are gathering from Internet visitors to government Web sites with trade organizations, retailers or other outside parties, congressional investigators say.

In a survey of online-privacy protections at government-run Web sites, the General Accounting Office found that 23 of 70 agencies surveyed have disclosed personal information gathered from Web sites to third parties, mostly other government agencies. But at least four agencies were found sharing information with private entities.

The GAO is a congressional unit that audits federal programs.

Some privacy advocates said the findings show the need to update a 1974 Privacy Act, which forbids government agencies from sharing with outsiders information they collect from taxpayers, but was drafted before computers were widely used.

"It's time to strengthen this important law for the Internet age,'' said Ari Schwartz, policy analyst with the Center for Democracy and Technology.

Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said the report clearly shows the White House isn't effectively enforcing Privacy Act provisions on executive branch agencies. "It's a surprisingly good law,'' Rotenberg said. "I think the big issue here is oversight and enforcement of the Privacy Act."

The GAO investigation was launched a year ago on a request by Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., to find out how government agencies are handling privacy issues on their Web sites. Lieberman has spearheaded efforts on the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee to oversee government use of the Internet to provide information to taxpayers.

GAO investigators said many of the privacy problems with government Web sites they uncovered could be addressed by the White House Office of Management and Budget issuing more specific guidelines on what information government agencies can release.

Office of Management and Budget guidelines forbid dissemination of "substantial" personal information, but they don't tell agencies what that means, or "whether such information as Social Security numbers and credit card numbers qualify as substantial personal information," the GAO said.

In its survey of 70 government agencies, congressional investigators classified "substantial" personal information as being a person's name, e-mail address, postal address, telephone number, Social Security number or credit card numbers. The investigation found 23 agencies shared information with other government agencies, and four said they share information with private-sector entities.

The agencies were not named. The outside parties included trade organizations, bilateral development banks, product manufacturers, distributors and retailers.

Sally Katzen, deputy director of the Office of Management and Budget, said the GAO report didn't reflect considerable progress the Clinton administration has made in persuading government agencies to pay attention to privacy issues.

Web sites run by the White House itself have been embroiled in privacy concerns. In June, Scripps Howard News Service reported that Internet sites run by the White House drug czar's office were secretly putting "cookie" programs in the computers of visitors to track what they were doing on the site.

Office of Management and Budget Director Jacob Lew ordered drug czar Barry McCaffrey to turn off the cookie machine, and issued a governmentwide directive stating that cookies programs can only be used in rare cases, and only if their use is approved by the agency's director.

The GAO survey found seven agencies used cookies, which are small software programs inserted in a visitor's computer. Cookies programs are used by advertising firms to track Internet users' activities, and can be combined with other data to compile profiles of individual Internet users.

On the Net: GAO is at htpp://www.gao.gov

(Lance Gay is a reporter for Scripps Howard News Service.)

J 







From all at biosys.net  Thu Sep  7 18:20:47 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:20:47 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 15:08 09/07/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:


>Servers are the price of scalability.  The nice thing about ICQ
>and similar instant messaging applications, unlike IRC,
>is that the server only tracks who's on and where, and doesn't carry
>the actual communication traffic between users.  Obviously this is
>for one-to-one conversations between two users rather than IRC's
>everybody-to-everybody model.  Another option in this space is the
>everybody's-a-server model, like Usenet uses.
>Servers also offer the benefit that it's harder to tell
>who's talking to whom, unlike point-to-point conversations,
>but they do cause risks from compromise and downtime.

Right.. I consider the benefits to outweigh the costs.  I am keeping the 
protocol robust enough that if you wanted to implement a server on your 
own, you could probably do so with minimal impact to the clients 
themselves.  When finished, you'll be able to add servers just as you do 
other users to your "buddy list" if you will, and communicate with a larger 
group that way.  Inter-server communications is not restricted either, but 
it's a ways down the road.


> >everyone must maintain an active TCP connection to everyone else..
>
>That's a MAJOR downside.  Most operating system and programming environments
>limit how many open TCP connections you can keep, typically <20,
>so this limits the sizes of communities you can maintain.
>Also, if you have TCP connections you need to write code to handle
>having them go up and down at unplanned times,
>while UDP just dribbles in.
>On the other hand, TCP sessions are good for data transfer.
>Voice over TCP is a sketchier issue - the problem is that
>the best way to handle lost voice packets is just to ignore the noise,
>as opposed to waiting for the retransmission to arrive and
>speeding up or delaying talk until you've caught up.

Yes.. I understand the differences in TCP/UDP pretty well, and their 
strengths and weaknesses.  I've done extensive programming using both, and 
have decided to go with TCP.  I do however have two points to bring up with 
the beginning of this section of your reply.

1) I've never encountered the 20 socket limit on any OS in recent memory.. 
and many applications open more than this on a regular basis.

2) The target audience of this application is very small, and currently 
restricted to Win32 users because it is written in Delphi.  Before long 
Delphi will be available for Linux, and cross-compiler compatability will 
have to be tested, but it is a big selling point with 
Borland/Inprise.  When Kylix (Delphi/C++ Builder on Linux) is available, I 
am keeping my fingers crossed that it will run well on FreeBSD, since I 
refuse to touch Linux with a ten foot pole, but have several years 
experience not only with Delphi, but with Administration of FreeBSD as well 
as NT based boxes.

I agree that voice using TCP has the drawbacks that you mentioned, however, 
because of the other existing requirements such as CBC and File Transfer, 
it is required that you have a reliable connection to get even the basic 
functionality of the program to work.  I'd rather have a delay in hearing 
the voice messages until the packets have arrived than decrease their 
security by using ECB.


>Your issues about ECB mode with UDP are good, though.
>The alternative is to use CBC mode and trash the next couple of packets
>after the lost/damaged one - CBC does self-recover.
>This is ok for voice; may or may not be for chat.

CBC does self recover yes, if bits are flipped that should not be 
flipped.  According to AC, a one bit error will cause a corresponding 1bit 
error, as well as mangling the following block.. but subsequent blocks will 
be OK.  However, it states very clearly that receiving the wrong number of 
bits in the stream will destroy the rest of the stream beyond repair for 
the decryption end, and that makes sense.  If a UDP packet is lost, then 
the rest of the stream is screwed and must be reinitialized.  Since the 
only way around this problem (besides using EBC) is to write my own 
connection-handling on top of UDP; I instead choose to let the OS handle 
this for me, in the form of TCP.

To quote Applied Cryptography, 2nd edition..

p195, pp5
"In CBC mode, a single-bit error in the ciphertext affects one block and 
one bit of the recovered plaintext.  The block containing the error is 
completely garbled.  The subsequent block has a 1-bit error in the same bit 
position as the error."

...

p196, pp2
"While CBC mode recovers quickly from bit errors, it doesn't recover at all 
from synchronization errors.  If a bit is added or lost from the ciphertext 
stream, then all subsequent bits are shifted one bit out of position and 
decryption will generate garbage indefinitely."

I assume that losing an entire block worth of bits will cause as much havoc 
as losing just one bit would.  If that isn't correct, I'd like to hear it..


>The rule of thumb is that you need at least twice as many bits of
>DH as you need of secure session key for your application, and you need
>at least as many bits of DH as you would need for RSA.
>You wouldn't want to use fewer than 1024 bits of RSA these days,
>so don't use fewer than 1024 bits of DH.  That's enough for multiple
>128-bit keys.
>There are various format proposals for turning the DH key into a session key,
>like using Hash(DHKey,YourIP,TheirIP,maybe-a-counter-or-Salt).
>4096 may be overkill, but it depends a lot on how often you'll be rekeying
>and how long you're willing to watch the CPU crunch to set up a connection.

The D/H is going to be used just to generate a key to securely transfer a 
4096 bit key for use in symmetrical crypto routines later in the program, 
for actual encryption of the chat/voice/file data transfers.  Using 1024 
bits of D/H is fine to generate a key-encryption key to just transfer the 
4096bit key.  I chose 4096 because it's large enough to be used in any 
symmetric crypto algorithm to max out it's key length.


>The bigger risk, though, is the quality of random numbers available
>for seeding your DH keys.  Don't even DREAM of using Delphi's builtins,
>if it has them - go find good crypto-quality-randomness work to reuse,
>unless you know you'll only run on Linux where there's /dev/random.
>At least use sound-card noise or user-entered mouse tracks to help.
>Lots of "secure" systems have been cracked by cracking their random seeds.

Of course. ;)


>If you don't have any other keying mechanism, you need to worry about
>man-in-the-middle attacks.  A simple approach is to use PGP public keys
>to sign the keyparts; that lets you reuse all the PGP infrastructure.
>There are alternatives, at least for voice, like reading the bits of the
>shared keys to each other.  See the PGPFONE docs for much discussion on
>user interfaces - and think about how much of their code you can rip
>off\\\\\\ reuse.

Well, truth be told, everyone knows that there is the problem "If Mallory 
is God.." which in this world simply means, if Mallory is your upstream 
you're in some serious trouble.  He could just as easily intercept the PGP 
keys and replace them with his own if they didn't already exist on the 
server.. this would cause problems for keys signed outside mallorys realm, 
say if you could distribute your key outside his available channels... 
however, if you could do that, you could just as easily trade a PRNG and a 
list of seeds, or even discuss whatever it is you mean to discuss over a 
cup of coffee.. :)

There comes a point of diminishing returns in trying to defeat the 
mallorys, where instead of making the problem harder for them, you just 
replace it with an equally hard/easy problem of a different nature.  I'm as 
paranoid as the next guy, but if mallory exists (in a given scenario) and 
he is in a position to intercept/forge a D/H exchange, then chances he is 
in a position to intercept/forge his own PK are highly likely.


>Also read the Photuris internet drafts - there's a lot of experience
>on denial-of-service attacks that they've incorporated,
>and it doesn't take much work to prevent most of them.

Ah, sorry.. how did we get on the topic of denial of service?


>Gak!  Don't do something that ugly.  There are lots of math libraries
>available,

Hey, I tend to find asm totally the opposite of ugly.  I've been writing it 
for years and have become pretty proficient at it, and my solutions are 
usually quite fast and elegant.  But, I have found a library I am going to 
be using instead.. the FGInt library.

>such as the GMP Gnu Multiple Precision integer package.  Depending on how
>Delphi feels about calling C routines, the most you should need to write
>in assembler are some little wrappers to format the function calls,
>and hopefully you don't need to do that.

Delphi can call C routines no problem, I have two problems with GMP that 
however have nothing to do with Delphi..

First, It's GPL'd, or under a modified version of the GPL.  I find the GPL 
to be distasteful and it forms a barrier more than a bridge to continued 
software development.  The reason for this I think is pretty simple; the 
GPL (I refer to the classic GPL.. I am not sure of modifications to it that 
may have been made for it's application to GMP) has made it excruciatingly 
clear that any program or library using any GPL'd source code must itself 
be open source, and cannot be sold for profit, but only "at-cost".  This 
represents a very "scary" proposition to professional developers such as 
myself, who are used to being paid for our work, since it basically states 
that any person can just come along, take a copy of our source code (which 
may in and of itself contain anything analogous to a "trade secret"), 
modify it and release it under a different name.  It also bars me from ever 
releasing a for-pay version or revision of the software based on GPL'd 
code.  I'm not in the support business, and any examination of the stock 
market would make it pretty obvious that those companies that claim they 
are in that business aren't doing so well.

I much prefer the BSD license which allows you to take, modify and use the 
source code within, and sell it or distribute it without source code if you 
so choose, provided you include the existing copyright for the sections of 
code you have used.  It gives the developer more freedom over how to 
distribute his/her own code, and incidentally allows people like myself who 
aren't in the support business and don't want to be the freedom to continue 
paying the bills by doing development on our own terms.

Sorry for the rant.. I'm a big fan of the Free Software movement, as well 
as the Open Source movements.. I am however mature enough to realize that 
there are situations when either one may be inappropriate, and I'm a far 
bigger fan of freedom than I am of free/open.  I believe that if you want 
to make your source code open and free, then you do so without restrictions.


>Also, some versions of the RSAREF libraries had Diffie-Hellmann code in them,
>as well as multiple-precision integers.
>
>
>Other chat and messaging systems have been written.
>Check out GALE at gale.org, and look through the Cypherpunks archives
>for encrypted  IRC and DCC variants.  Don't let that stop you from coding,
>but do steal code rather that writing from scratch when you can.

Ah, but that really detracts from the joy of a lot of it.. :)  The only 
parts I'd steal would be parts that I'm finding difficult to do, like the 
large math libraries.. and that takes all the fun out of learning for 
yourself.. :)  Far from inventing the wheel though, I will use 
libraries/snippets that stand up to my testing as well as my scrutiny of 
their license.. I want to get a version working now (without gpl-like 
restrictions) and then I probably will go back and rewrite every line 
myself that I have obtained elsewhere, just so I know how it all works, I 
am free of licensing restrictions, and I can implement bug fixes/features 
without worrying about maybe breaking something I didn't write.  You know 
how difficult it can be to understand code written by other people, I'm 
sure.. ;)

>It's been high for years - thanks for adding Signal :-)

I'll try and continue. ;)


>Listening in on cordless phones can be a legitimate cpunks kind of topic,
>though it's been discussed in the past and this was probably just a troll
>or a clueless newbie.  As far as giving people drugs, the standard
>Cypherpunks approach is to say "That's a hardware problem" and then
>discuss whose Palm-pilot digicash system you can use for payment,
>though there has also been crypto protocol work like
>"The Cocaine Auction Protocol" on how suppliers and consumers can
>find each other without interference by non-participants,
>or building conferencing systems for ravers where the server operator
>provably doesn't have anything subpoenable that would indicate which
>chatters were discussing where to get drug X at event Y.
>(There are also noisier Cypherpunks approaches to drugs, like saying
>"Jim, yer off yer medication again" or "smells good, got any more?" or
>"He's obviously smoking something *very* good and not sharing" or
>"No, in a geodesic gift economy you really *might not* charge for drugs." :-)

hahah.. of course.. well, again, sorry for ranting above a bit and possibly 
contributing some to the noise.. I'll be around, but for now, there is 
another window open with code crying out to be written... ;)

Take it easy.


-------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
-Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.




From declan at well.com  Thu Sep  7 18:53:26 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 21:53:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration 9/11 7:30pm SFO Hyatt
In-Reply-To: ; from allyn@well.com on Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:11:42AM -0700
References: <3.0.5.32.20000906172950.00795830@idiom.com> 
Message-ID: <20000907215326.A8574@cluebot.com>

There is something being worked on for DC. Dunno about Seattle.

-Declan


On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:11:42AM -0700, Mark Allyn wrote:
> 
> Is there anything planned for up here in Seattle?
> 
> Mark
> 
> 




From call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com  Thu Sep  7 21:32:28 2000
From: call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com (call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:32:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: Need Any Golf Balls  ??
Message-ID: <200009080432.AAA08485@venus.urconvenience.com>

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Titleist HP Distance                $15.95 doz               RD31T
Tilteist HP Eclipse		    $16.95 doz		     RM32T
Titleist HVC                        $12.95 doz               RD32T
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Remember - The Ballman Saves You Money
888-507-7566

Fri Sep  8 00:32:25 EDT 2000: 0275




From call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com  Thu Sep  7 21:32:29 2000
From: call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com (call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:32:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Need Any Golf Balls  ??
Message-ID: <200009080432.AAA08515@venus.urconvenience.com>

We Are Currently Offering Great Prices On All Our Titleist Products

Call Us For Additional Information.
                                                             Item #

Titleist Professional               $22.95 doz               RHS11T
Titleist Prestige                   $23.95 doz               RHS17T
Titleist Tour Distance              $19.95 doz               RHS13T
Titleist HP Tours                   $14.95 doz               RHS12T
Titleist HP Distance                $15.95 doz               RD31T
Tilteist HP Eclipse		    $16.95 doz		     RM32T
Titleist HVC                        $12.95 doz               RD32T
Titleist DT                         $11.95 doz               RM20T
Titleist Professional Blems         $69.95 10-doz            SP06TP
Titleist Mixed Blems		    $39.95 10-doz	     SP07TM

These are our superb premium quality golf balls, the finest quality we have available.  These are NOT X-OUTS.  Call us for more details.

Other great values include:

Strata                              $16.95 doz               RHS16T
MaxFli Revolution                   $19.95 doz               RHS15
Nike                                $19.95 doz               RMS21N
Taylor Made InnerGels               $23.95 doz               RD46TA
Precept MC                          $14.95 doz               RHS20P
Precept EV Spin or Distance         $14.95 doz               RMS24
Staff Titanium Distance or Spin     $13.95 doz               RD38W
Pinnacle Xtreme                     $ 9.95 doz               RD40P
Top Flite Magna                     $ 9.95 doz               RD34TF
Slazenger Raw or Spin               $16.95 doz               RD36S
Top Flite XL 2000-all models        $ 9.95 doz               RD35TF
Ultras                              $ 9.95 doz               RD37U
MaxFli MD			    $ 8.95 doz		     RMS26M
Pinnacle Gold			    $ 6.95 doz		     RD41PN
Top Flite XL			    $ 6.95 doz		     RD35TF
Prostaff			    $59.95 10-doz	     SP08PS

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Add $1.50 per doz shipping and handling.
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Most orders UPS delivered within 5 days.
All Credit Cards Accepted

Call 888-507-7566 to order by credit card, 281-561-5033 for check-fax orders.

Call us for a complete catalog or for additional information.

Call 8am to 10pm Central Time -Including Weekends- for information or to place an order.

Best Wishes For Great Golf
Dana Jones
Remember - The Ballman Saves You Money
888-507-7566

Fri Sep  8 00:32:25 EDT 2000: 0275




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Sep  8 02:06:59 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 02:06:59 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000908020659.00aa9200@idiom.com>

At 09:20 PM 9/7/00 -0400, Asymmetric wrote:
>I agree that voice using TCP has the drawbacks that you mentioned, however, 
>because of the other existing requirements such as CBC and File Transfer, 
>it is required that you have a reliable connection to get even the basic 
>functionality of the program to work.  I'd rather have a delay in hearing 
>the voice messages until the packets have arrived than decrease their 
>security by using ECB.

You can still do CBC with UDP.  You might want to look at hybrid solutions,
like basic connectivity and voice connections on UDP and separate TCP
connections
for data transfer, though that may be more trouble than it's worth.

...
>p196, pp2
>"While CBC mode recovers quickly from bit errors, it doesn't recover at all 
>from synchronization errors.  If a bit is added or lost from the ciphertext 
>stream, then all subsequent bits are shifted one bit out of position and 
>decryption will generate garbage indefinitely."
>
>I assume that losing an entire block worth of bits will cause as much havoc 
>as losing just one bit would.  If that isn't correct, I'd like to hear it..

There are synchronization problems you can recover from and ones you can't.
You need to stay aligned on the encryption-block barrier, e.g. 64 bits for DES
or 128 bits for some other algorithms.  If you lose that, you're toast.
But if you always pad your packets to multiples of the block size,
you don't have a problem with UDP, since packets either arrive or don't.
So if you lose a packet, then you've toasted the first 16 bytes of the next,
but the rest of the packet and the rest of the conversation are ok.  
With TCP, you don't lose packets, though you don't always have convenient 
mechanisms for keeping track of packet boundaries, but you're always going 
to write in block-size chunks anyway.


>
>>The rule of thumb is that you need at least twice as many bits of
>>DH as you need of secure session key for your application, and you need
>>at least as many bits of DH as you would need for RSA.
>>You wouldn't want to use fewer than 1024 bits of RSA these days,
>>so don't use fewer than 1024 bits of DH.  That's enough for multiple
>>128-bit keys.
>>There are various format proposals for turning the DH key into a session
key,
>>like using Hash(DHKey,YourIP,TheirIP,maybe-a-counter-or-Salt).
>>4096 may be overkill, but it depends a lot on how often you'll be rekeying
>>and how long you're willing to watch the CPU crunch to set up a connection.
>
>The D/H is going to be used just to generate a key to securely transfer a 
>4096 bit key for use in symmetrical crypto routines later in the program, 
>for actual encryption of the chat/voice/file data transfers.  Using 1024 
>bits of D/H is fine to generate a key-encryption key to just transfer the 
>4096bit key.  I chose 4096 because it's large enough to be used in any 
>symmetric crypto algorithm to max out it's key length.

Any symmetric algorithm will have maxed out by 256 bits, and most by 128,
though you may want different keys for your two directions.
So generating the DH key with 1024 bits is probably enough,
though it doesn't hurt much to do 2048 or 4096 -
no need for separately generating a key and shipping it.
In particular, DH takes advantage of both machines' sources of randomness,
which is a major win over something generated by one end
unless you've got a good reason for it.

>>If you don't have any other keying mechanism, you need to worry about
>>man-in-the-middle attacks.  A simple approach is to use PGP public keys
>>to sign the keyparts; that lets you reuse all the PGP infrastructure.
>>There are alternatives, at least for voice, like reading the bits of the
>>shared keys to each other.  See the PGPFONE docs for much discussion on
>>user interfaces - and think about how much of their code you can rip
>>off\\\\\\ reuse.
>
>Well, truth be told, everyone knows that there is the problem "If Mallory 
>is God.." which in this world simply means, if Mallory is your upstream 
>you're in some serious trouble.  He could just as easily intercept the PGP 
>keys and replace them with his own if they didn't already exist on the 
>server.. this would cause problems for keys signed outside mallorys realm, 
>say if you could distribute your key outside his available channels... 
>however, if you could do that, you could just as easily trade a PRNG and a 
>list of seeds, or even discuss whatever it is you mean to discuss over a 
>cup of coffee.. :)

Sometimes Mallory _is_ your ISP - even without Carnivore.
Public key technology only needs one untampered data transfer to happen,
and PGP has a lot more infrastructure for that than trading PRNGs.
Signing DH keyparts is a job for public-key signatures.

>>Also read the Photuris internet drafts - there's a lot of experience
>>on denial-of-service attacks that they've incorporated,
>>and it doesn't take much work to prevent most of them.
>
>Ah, sorry.. how did we get on the topic of denial of service?

By saying "I'm going to put this chat server on the Internet"....
Crypto has its own special denial-of-service flavors in addition to
the regular ones, and Photuris addresses a lot of it with minimal work.

>Delphi can call C routines no problem, I have two problems with GMP that 
>however have nothing to do with Delphi..
>
>First, It's GPL'd, or under a modified version of the GPL.  I find the GPL 
>to be distasteful and it forms a barrier more than a bridge to continued 
>software development.  The reason for this I think is pretty simple; the 
>GPL (I refer to the classic GPL.. I am not sure of modifications to it that 
>may have been made for it's application to GMP) has made it excruciatingly 
>clear that any program or library using any GPL'd source code must itself 
>be open source, and cannot be sold for profit, but only "at-cost". 

The "Library GPL" was written to address just that problem.
Stallman calls it the "Lesser GPL", because he doesn't like it (:-),
but LGPL says you have to distribute source code for the LGPL'd libraries 
you use or modify (or indicate where to download them) but doesn't GPLize the
code you wrote that isn't part of the libraries.  So you can use it in
your proprietary product without publishing your code, charge money for it,
etc.




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From not_so_anony_mous at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 19:50:41 2000
From: not_so_anony_mous at hotmail.com (not_so_anony mous)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 02:50:41 GMT
Subject: CDR: Re: BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration 9/11 7:30pm SFO Hyatt
Message-ID: 

The Shmoo Group is maintaining a list of patent expiry parties

    http://www.shmoo.com/rsa/

I don't see a Seattle party on the list. You should throw one :-)


:mous:


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From galt at inconnu.isu.edu  Fri Sep  8 02:17:23 2000
From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 03:17:23 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: membership
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


I'm glad to see LEOs do thnings like this, because it means that they
MUST have the real crimes all solved...

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Larry Levinson wrote:

> Hi. I'm trying to get information on NAMBLA and found your post on a random 
> search. I'm having trouble locating NAMBLA. The website seems to have been 
> stopped. I've written to someone else (a former secretary of the group) but 
> thought I'd try you as well.
> 
> Some close friends suggested it as a good place to join, chat and make 
> friends with similar interests.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Larry
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 

-- 
Galt's sci-fi paradox:  Stormtroopers versus Redshirts to the death.

Who is John Galt?  galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who!





From j16wilcox at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 04:51:01 2000
From: j16wilcox at aol.com (Son of top recruiter for Feb.)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 04:51:01
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200009081150.e88BoJH14828@tot-tf.proxy.aol.com>

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From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Sep  8 02:10:55 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 05:10:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20000907075006.00813100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <39B8AC5E.623850DE@ricardo.de>

David Honig wrote:
> >not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
> >a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
> >re-distributes these things.
> 
> So if you don't pay GEMA who *are* those folks with the guns?

GEMA will most likely sue you. but since GEMA isn't the government,
that's a civil case.





From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Sep  8 02:14:16 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 05:14:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <39B8AD2B.87C56044@ricardo.de>

Bill Stewart wrote:
> So does the proposed law require companies to pay GEMA
> if they make or sell anything in this category?

I'm afraid that is what is being proposed.
of course, similiar stuff has been proposed for a long time. the IP
industry is greedy, as we all know. and since IP is an artificial right,
created by law (copyright, among others), they need laws if they want to
move into new areas of business or extend their old ones. other people
innovate to grow, IP corporations buy new laws.



> If they don't pay, what happens?  Lawsuit?  Criminal prosecution?

lawsuit, civil, most likely.



> In the US, there are a couple of organizations, I think ASCAP and BMI,
>         (American Society of Composers, Artists, and Performers)
> that manage the intellectual property rights for most musicians.
> If you play music on the radio or do other public performances,
> you have to pay them their standard rates.  It's not mandatory -
> there are non-ASCAP musicians, and radio stations (particularly
> religious talk/music stations) that don't participate,
> but if you play music from their members on the radio without
> a license from them, they'll sue for copyright infringement.

that's pretty much the same situation, I guess.





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Sep  8 05:16:52 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 07:16:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: AmEx offering disposable credit cards...
Message-ID: 


See CNN.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Sep  8 06:52:11 2000
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:52:11 -0500
Subject: CDR: Suck
Message-ID: <39B8EF0B.CC31572E@dev.tivoli.com>

http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/09/08/daily.html
-- 
   We shall not cease from exploration, And the end of all our
   exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the
   place for the first time.

                                          T.S. Elliot

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062
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From brflgnk at cotse.com  Fri Sep  8 06:25:14 2000
From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 09:25:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: Amex throwaway numbers
Message-ID: <968419514.39b8e8ba72f39@webmail.cotse.com>

The Amex disposable number story reminds me to ask: has anyone on the list 
actually used their Blue card and reader to make a secure purchase over the web? 
Know anyone who has? 

(I'm almost tempted to apply for one just to get the free smart card reader, so 
I can hack on it)




From mdpopescu at geocities.com  Fri Sep  8 06:28:59 2000
From: mdpopescu at geocities.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:28:59 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <008a01c01999$331cf3c0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>



From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Sep  8 08:19:05 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 11:19:05 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000908074717.007ec600@pop.sprynet.com>

At 08:02 PM 9/7/00 -0400, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>Does this method work for apps that are generating and testing lots 
>of keys or does the initial key generation step still have to be 
>undertaken?  The whole point of the blowfish technique was to 
>increase the attackers required effort.  It was basicly assumed that 
>valid users would simply store the expanded key.  Is their a link 
>somewhere to more information on this technique or could you expand 
>on it?
>-- 

Kevin if you haven't, read the DES Crack book, its online too.









  








From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Sep  8 08:19:09 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 11:19:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B8AC5E.623850DE@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000908080939.00794e70@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:10 AM 9/8/00 -0400, Tom Vogt wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>> >not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
>> >a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
>> >re-distributes these things.
>> 
>> So if you don't pay GEMA who *are* those folks with the guns?
>
>GEMA will most likely sue you. but since GEMA isn't the government,
>that's a civil case.

The "right" of GEMA to sue is enforced by folks claiming to be from
your "State" who carry guns, no? 

A level of indirection doesn't change anything.  









  








From proff at iq.org  Thu Sep  7 17:51:06 2000
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: 08 Sep 2000 11:51:06 +1100
Subject: CDR: echelon time-line
Message-ID: 


I'm developing an echelon `in the news' and `on-the-net' time-line for
the past 30 years. Not comprehensive, but 30 or so most important
rumours leaks/news-stories. Has anyone else done this? Does anyone
have personal suggestions as to the most significant events?

Cheers,
Julian.




From jf_avon at videotron.ca  Fri Sep  8 09:25:44 2000
From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:25:44 -0400
Subject: CDR: Fwd: QRN: Drug war bullying exposed
Message-ID: <0G0K0083MTNDO7@field.videotron.net>

==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
>Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 00:07:45 -0600
>From: Michael Miller 
>Subject: QRN: Drug war bullying exposed
>To: Quackgrass Roots Network 



     "...[T]he core reason the "war on drugs" completely
     dominates the official policies of so many nations,
     including [Canada's], is simple: The United States
     insists on it. ..."

     "The few officials and governments that do stray, even
     slightly, outside the prohibition orthodoxy are cajoled,
     manipulated, or bullied to get back in."

  "Why the War on Drugs has failed"
  Dan Gardner
  The Ottawa Citizen, Tuesday 5 September 2000
  --
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/columnists/gardner/000905/4090140.html

This Ottawa Citizen expose of US bullying is dynamite - as is its
expose of many other governments' spineless surrender to that
bullying. If you can read this horror story without mounting fury,
you'd better check to see if you still have a pulse and a mind.

If you think US' drug warriors limit their bullying to backward
countries, you think wrong. Canada. Australia. Holland. The World
Health Organization. Names, dates, details: the works!

Gardner and the Ottawa Citizen merit high praise for publishing
this report; that was a courageous act in view of the systematic
vindictiveness and widespread cowardice they have exposed.

It deserves the widest distribution.

Cheers,  Mike
--
 Michael Miller | Quackgrass Press | Quackgrass Roots Network
Subscribe to QRN: http://www.quackgrass.com/roots/qrn.html
            Aiming for the New Renaissance!



===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================






From superhits at excite.com  Fri Sep  8 12:46:35 2000
From: superhits at excite.com (superhits at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:46:35 -0700
Subject: CDR: About your business
Message-ID: <000059b07fe1$00004e19$00004edb@209.63.112.236>

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From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Sep  8 10:12:24 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:12:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20000908080939.00794e70@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <39B91D3E.435949A5@ricardo.de>

David Honig wrote:
> >> So if you don't pay GEMA who *are* those folks with the guns?
> >
> >GEMA will most likely sue you. but since GEMA isn't the government,
> >that's a civil case.
> 
> The "right" of GEMA to sue is enforced by folks claiming to be from
> your "State" who carry guns, no?
> 
> A level of indirection doesn't change anything.

on the ideological level, no.
on the practical level - a lot. for example, you don't go to jail for
not paying GEMA.





From agl at linuxpower.org  Fri Sep  8 10:57:05 2000
From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:57:05 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:12:27PM -0400
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net> <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20000908195850.A1619@linuxpower.org>

On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:12:27PM -0400, Bill Stewart wrote:
> Servers are the price of scalability.

Correction - servers are the price of *easy* scalability. See Freenet for an
example of self-organizing networks that are efficient. But it isn't easy,
self-org networks are complex and subtle beasts. It depends on if the extra
work is worth it (I'm writing a Freenet node and I can tell you it's a
significant chunk of work)

AGL

-- 
The Street finds its own uses for technology.
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From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Fri Sep  8 11:00:28 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:00:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: why cops act that way
Message-ID: <32de63ed613d429ba2a2c8815ce80394@melontraffickers.com>

Sep 8, 2000 - 09:55 AM 

            Man Who Scored Too High on Police
            Test Loses Federal Appeal 
            The Associated Press

            NEW LONDON, Conn. (AP) - A man whose bid to become a
            police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an
            intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit
            against the city. 

            The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a
            lower courts decision that the city did not discriminate
            against Robert Jordan because the same standards were
            applied to everyone who took the test. 

            "This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America
            against people of a certain class," Jordan said from his
            Waterford home Friday. "I maintain you have no more control
            over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your
            gender or anything else." 

            He said he does not plan to take any further legal action. 

            Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in
            1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125.
            But New London police interviewed only candidates who
            scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too
            high could get bored with police work and leave soon after
            undergoing costly training. 

            The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22,
            the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average. 

            Jordan alleged his rejection from the police force was
            discrimination. He sued the city, saying his civil rights were
            violated because he was denied equal protection under the
            law. 

            But the U.S. District Court found that New London had
            "shown a rational basis for the policy." In a ruling dated Aug.
            23, the 2nd Circuit agreed. The court said the policy might
            be unwise but was a rational way to reduce job turnover. 

            Jordan has worked as a prison guard since he took the test. 

          http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGI20J2XVCC.html                                             






From all at biosys.net  Fri Sep  8 11:33:56 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:33:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000908020659.00aa9200@idiom.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000908135730.00af9960@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 02:06 09/08/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>You can still do CBC with UDP.  You might want to look at hybrid solutions,
>like basic connectivity and voice connections on UDP and separate TCP
>connections
>for data transfer, though that may be more trouble than it's worth.

I've thought about it and it's definitely something to keep in mind.. 
another advantage to doing TCP from my standpoint is that it's easier to 
multithread.  The old version had some problems where on occasion it would 
stall for a while if it was doing a reverse lookup or something like that, 
and you wouldn't receive any more traffic until whatever operation was 
finished.  Threading the application allows any of the connections to stall 
or slow down without taking the rest of the application with it.. and 
threading UDP isn't nearly as easy.  Honestly, with the tools I have 
available, I don't even know if it's possible. :)

>There are synchronization problems you can recover from and ones you can't.
>You need to stay aligned on the encryption-block barrier, e.g. 64 bits for DES
>or 128 bits for some other algorithms.  If you lose that, you're toast.
>But if you always pad your packets to multiples of the block size,
>you don't have a problem with UDP, since packets either arrive or don't.
>So if you lose a packet, then you've toasted the first 16 bytes of the next,
>but the rest of the packet and the rest of the conversation are ok.
>With TCP, you don't lose packets, though you don't always have convenient
>mechanisms for keeping track of packet boundaries, but you're always going
>to write in block-size chunks anyway.

Ah ok.. so losing a block will just nuke the entire next block, and then it 
will recover?  I thought it would be a more serious problem than that, but 
I guess it makes sense that the feedforward wouldn't be able to affect any 
blocks beyond the immdiate next block.  Keeping the packets aligned on 
block boundaries makes so much sense that it's something I'm doing anyway 
regardless of this problem. :)

>Any symmetric algorithm will have maxed out by 256 bits, and most by 128,
>though you may want different keys for your two directions.
>So generating the DH key with 1024 bits is probably enough,
>though it doesn't hurt much to do 2048 or 4096 -
>no need for separately generating a key and shipping it.
>In particular, DH takes advantage of both machines' sources of randomness,
>which is a major win over something generated by one end
>unless you've got a good reason for it.

Well, the information I have is that Blowfish takes up to 448 bits, RC2 up 
to 1024 bits, Mars up to 1248bits, RC5 and RC6 both up to 2048 bits of key 
material.. is that incorrect?

The system currently supports Blowfish, Cast (128 and 256), Gost, IDEA, 
Mars, Misty1, RC (2, 5 and 6), Rijndael and Twofish for ciphers, and Haval, 
RipeMD160 and SHA1 for hashes.  The user chooses what cipher they want to 
communicate to the other users with, so incoming traffic can possibly use a 
different cipher on every connection, while outgoing traffic will all use 
the same cipher.

This brings up another question.  My document states that Cast256, IDEA(*), 
Mars, Misty1(*), RC5, and RC6 are all patented.. * = "Free for 
noncommercial use."  Is there a good repository somewhere with information 
on all the licensing issues/rules of these algorithms?



>Sometimes Mallory _is_ your ISP - even without Carnivore.
>Public key technology only needs one untampered data transfer to happen,
>and PGP has a lot more infrastructure for that than trading PRNGs.
>Signing DH keyparts is a job for public-key signatures.

True, and it is something that I've considered, but I would really like to 
stay away from any kind of server-based options as possible.  The fewer 
points of failure in the chain the better for this application.  I think it 
would suit me better to implement a public-key algorithm in the application 
itself, and then have each client maintain a list of all the public keys it 
has seen and allow the option to the user of signing them with it's own key 
and then sending them back to the owner.  This would allow the same 
failure-rate where only one transmission needs to occur untampered in order 
to allow for key validation.  Possibly in the future clients could exchange 
all their keys and then raise the trust level of a public key the more 
times they see it from different clients.  Since participation is entirely 
voluntary by both parties in both the overall application as well as the 
key signing/trust parts, then a DoS related to a single user forging a key 
and then connecting to many clients with many other clients isn't really an 
issue.  The lack of centralized communications means that the malicious 
user isn't going to have a "master list" to poison, or even an accurate 
view of all the clients in use.

This is all tenative however.. I haven't thought this far ahead until just 
now.  For now, I just want to get the D/H working and the key generation 
underway.

Ah, as an aside to something you mentioned before about using the built-in 
random functions with Delphi... Borland gives you full source to all the 
run-time libraries and components that ship with the language, so It's easy 
enough for me to just rewrite them to be cryptographically strong if I want 
to do that instead of writing auxiliary libraries.. why I would want to do 
that however, escapes me just now, but at least I can investigate the 
methods it is using and see how strong/weak they are.

>By saying "I'm going to put this chat server on the Internet"....
>Crypto has its own special denial-of-service flavors in addition to
>the regular ones, and Photuris addresses a lot of it with minimal work.

Ah ok..


>The "Library GPL" was written to address just that problem.
>Stallman calls it the "Lesser GPL", because he doesn't like it (:-),
>but LGPL says you have to distribute source code for the LGPL'd libraries
>you use or modify (or indicate where to download them) but doesn't GPLize the
>code you wrote that isn't part of the libraries.  So you can use it in
>your proprietary product without publishing your code, charge money for it,
>etc.

Ah ok, well I'm no lawyer.. I did look at the GMP license and it still 
appeared to be worded rather strangely.  If the library is linked in to 
your code then your code must also be open source.  If the library is 
instead loaded at runtime and also is not required for the application to 
function, it appears the rest of the source can be closed.. I refer to 
section 6, and section 7 subsection 1.

However it's worded, I've found a different math library who's only 
restriction is that if I decided to charge money for whatever I've written 
with it, I have to pay the author of the library an amount equal to the 
cost of one license for the application.  A lot more straightforward, and 
appealing than the legalese of the (L)GPL.

See ya 'round.


-------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
-Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep  8 15:16:17 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 17:16:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000908140853.0081fc10@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, David Honig wrote:

> 
> Ultimately law is backed by violence.
> 

And therefore it is bad....yadda, yadda, yadda

Bullshit. That is such a general statement as to be worthless.

The 'law' stems from the individual right to self-defence. Law is backed
by violence because that is what is is about.

To then try to portray this as the stem of human abuse of same is simply
abusive to the reader. People do not do violence on others simply because
laws exists. It is not unreasonable, to any reasonable person that is, to
expect a certain percentage of persons in 'the law' to abuse it. Where
else is the best place to be after all? As usual, the devil is in the
details. It isn't 'the law' that is the problem, but rather how as people
we allows it to be abused.

Your thesis is self-referential, inconsequential, and still born.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Sep  8 14:32:03 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 17:32:03 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B91D3E.435949A5@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000908140853.0081fc10@pop.sprynet.com>

At 07:09 PM 9/8/00 +0200, Tom Vogt wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>> The "right" of GEMA to sue is enforced by folks claiming to be from
>> your "State" who carry guns, no?
>> 
>> A level of indirection doesn't change anything.
>
>on the ideological level, no.
>on the practical level - a lot. for example, you don't go to jail for
>not paying GEMA.

Then why do people pay?  

Ultimately law is backed by violence.

Having, say, your restaurant license revoked by a bureaucrat in
an agency created by a committe empowered by elected officials does
not change the fact that Folks With Guns will haul you and your property
away if you operate without their permission.  

You "don't go to jail for not paying GEMA" but you do go to jail
for not paying fines for not paying GEMA, not showing up in court, etc.  

Don't pretend.








  










  








From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Sep  8 18:21:18 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 18:21:18 -0700
Subject: CDR: Check this out: http://www.antivore.com
Message-ID: <39B9908E.468B46D8@sunder.net>


http://www.antivore.com



-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep  8 16:33:53 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 18:33:53 -0500
Subject: CDR: ScienceDaily Magazine -- Reclaiming The Internet's Original Purpose
Message-ID: <39B97761.5CF073F9@ssz.com>

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/09/000904125555.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From commerce at home.com  Fri Sep  8 16:10:02 2000
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:10:02 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Check this out: http://www.antivore.com
References: <39B9908E.468B46D8@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <01a201c019e9$eb0372c0$0100a8c0@matthew>

----- Original Message -----
From: "sunder" 
> http://www.antivore.com

Easy-as-pie carnivore defeating email encryption?

"
How does Antivore work?

Antivore is a special application which sits between the user and
their mail server. The application is server-based which means
that as an individual you need to contact your IT department or
your ISP to request the encryption services that Antivore can
offer.
"

So I send my cleartext email to my ISP... who has been served
with a search warrant and a small black box... and they will
encrypt it, and then forward the cyphertext through their mail
server and THEN through the carnivore box?

I hope the FBI special agent assigned to my ISP was hired under
some sort of affirmative action programme.




From declan at well.com  Fri Sep  8 16:16:42 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:16:42 -0400
Subject: FC: Clinton administration takes on Napster in court case
Message-ID: 

The Clinton administration is siding with the entertainment industry
in its attempts to shut down Napster. It just filed a 37-page amicus
brief in the court case saying Napster can't use the Audio Home
Recording Act of 1992 (http://www.virtualrecordings.com/ahra.htm) as a
legal shield. The brief says "the activities of Napster's users do not
even arguably come within the terms of the statute" and the district
court's ruling should be upheld. The Justice Department, the Patent
and Trademark Office, and the Copyright Office signed the brief.  By
way of possible explanation, one of my colleagues has compiled
(http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,38528,00.html) a handy list
of entertainment industry contributions to Democrats. :)

-Declan

********

http://www.politechbot.com/docs/napster-amicus.html
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/napster-amicus.wpd


                          NOS. 00-16401 & 00-16403
  
                   IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
  
                           FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT
  
                            ____________________
  
                         A&M RECORDS, INC., et al.
  
                           Plaintiffs-Appellants,
  
                                     v.
  
                               NAPSTER, INC.,
  
                            Defendant-Appellant.
  
                            ____________________
  
      JERRY LEIBER, individually and d/b/a JERRY LEIBER MUSIC, et al.,
  
                           Plaintiffs-Appellants,
  
                                     v.
  
                               NAPSTER, INC.,
  
                            Defendant-Appellant.
  
                            ____________________
  
              ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
  
                  FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
  
                            ____________________
  
                BRIEF FOR THE UNITED STATES AS AMICUS CURIAE
  
                            ____________________
  
  
   DAVID O. CARSON DAVID W. OGDEN
       General Counsel Assistant Attorney General
       J. KENT DUNLAP MARK B. STERN
      
   SCOTT R. McINTOSH
  
   United States Copyright Office Attorneys, Appellate Staff
      
   Library of Congress
  
   101 Independence Ave. S.E. Civil Division, Department of Justice
  
   Washington, D.C. 20540 601 D Street N.W., Room 9550
      
   Washington, D.C. 20520
  
   ALBIN F. DROST
  
   Acting General Counsel Counsel for the United States
      
   JUSTIN HUGHES
  
   United States Patent and Trademark Office
  
   P.O. Box 15667
  
   Arlington, VA 22215
  
   Of Counsel
  

[...]
  
                            SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT
  
   Section 1008 of the Audio Home Recording Act does not protect Napster
   from the plaintiffs' claims of copyright infringement. Section 1008
   was adopted to address a very different phenomenon - the noncommercial
   consumer use of digital audio recording devices, such as DAT tape
   decks, to perform "home taping" of musical recordings. Napster's
   effort to bring itself within the ambit of Section 1008 flouts the
   terms of the statute and conflicts with the basic policies of the Act.
  
   1.
   Section 1008 prohibits actions for copyright infringement based on:
   (1) the manufacture, importation, or distribution of "a digital audio
   recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog
   recording device, or an analog recording medium"; or (2) "the
   noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making
   digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings." Although
   Napster insists that the activities of its users are protected by
   Section 1008, and that it therefore cannot be held accountable for
   contributory or vicarious infringement based on those activities,
   Napster's defense cannot possibly be squared with the actual terms of
   Section 1008.
  
   First, it is undisputed that Napster's users are not using any
   "device" or "medium" specified in Section 1008, and Section 1008
   applies only to consumer use of "such a device or medium." Second,
   when Napster's users create and store copies of music files on their
   computers' hard disks, they are not making "digital musical recordings
   or analog musical recordings" as those terms are defined in the Act.
   Third, Napster's users are engaged not only in copying musical
   recordings, but also in distributing such recordings to the public,
   and Section 1008 immunizes only noncommercial copying ("noncommercial
   use * * * for making digital musical recordings or analog musical
   recordings"), not public distribution. Fourth, unlike such copyright
   provisions as the fair use provision (17 U.S.C. =A7 107), Section 1008
   does not designate any use of copyrighted works as non-infringing; it
   merely bars "action[s] * * * alleging infringement" based on such
   uses. Assuming arguendo that Napster's users are otherwise engaged in
   acts of copyright infringement, nothing in Section 1008 purports to
   render those actions non-infringing, and hence the claims against
   Napster for contributory and vicarious infringement would remain
   unaffected even if Section 1008 did apply to Napster's users.
  
   2.
   The AHRA was intended by Congress to embody a compromise between the
   music industry on the one hand and the consumer electronics industry
   and consumer groups on the other. At the heart of that compromise is a
   quid pro quo: in exchange for allowing noncommercial consumer use of
   digital audio recording technology (Section 1008), the music industry
   receives financial compensation (Sections 1003-1007) and protection
   against serial copying (Section 1002). Permitting Napster to shelter
   itself behind Section 1008 would defeat this basic statutory quid pro
   quo: Napster's users would be permitted to engage in digital copying
   and public distribution of copyrighted works on a scale beggaring
   anything Congress could have imagined when it enacted the Act, yet the
   music industry would receive nothing in return because the products
   used by Napster and its users (computers and hard drives) are
   unquestionably not subject to the Act's royalty and serial copying
   provisions.
  
   Napster asserts that, despite the precision of the language in Section
   1008, Congress actually meant to provide immunity for all
   noncommercial consumer copying of music in digital or analog form,
   whether or not the copying fits within the terms of Section 1008.
   Nothing in the legislative history of the Act supports that argument.
   And nothing in RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia Systems Inc., 180 F.3d 1072
   (9th Cir. 1999), the decision on which Napster places principal
   reliance, supports the argument either. Section 1008 was not at issue
   in Diamond Multimedia, and nowhere does the case hold that Section
   1008 provides the kind of omnibus immunity for digital copying that
   Napster invokes here.
  
                                  ARGUMENT
  
    SECTION 1008 OF THE AUDIO HOME RECORDING ACT OF 1992 DOES NOT EXCUSE
                         NAPSTER FROM LIABILITY FOR
  
                           COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
  
   Napster asserts that Section 1008 of the Audio Home Recording Act
   provides its users with immunity from liability for copyright
   infringement and, in so doing, relieves Napster itself from any
   derivative liability for contributory or vicarious infringement. The
   district court was correct to reject that defense. Napster's
   invocation of Section 1008 is flatly inconsistent with the terms of
   the statute and the legislative policies that underlie the AHRA.
   Accordingly, if Napster is otherwise liable under the copyright laws,
   Section 1008 does not relieve Napster of liability.
  
   A. Napster's Immunity Defense Is Foreclosed by the Plain Language of
       Section 1008
      
   "The 'starting point for interpreting a statute is the language of the
   statute itself.'" Exxon Mobil Corp. v. United States Environmental
   Protection Agency, 217 F.3d 1246, 1249 (9th Cir. 2000) (quoting
   Consumer Product Safety Commission v. GTE Sylvania, Inc., 447 U.S.
   102, 108 (1980)). Napster's discussion of Section 1008 is notably
   selective about following this rule. Napster correctly points out that
   the introductory language of Section 1008 - "[n]o action may be
   brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright" - makes
   Section 1008 potentially applicable to any infringement action under
   Title 17, not just an action under the AHRA itself. But Napster
   conspicuously fails to address the remaining language of Section 1008,
   and makes no effort to explain how that language can be read to
   protect Napster's users or Napster itself.
  
   Napster's reluctance to come to grips with the statutory language is
   understandable, because the activities of Napster's users do not even
   arguably come within the terms of the statute. Not only does the
   language of Section 1008 foreclose Napster's immunity defense, but it
   does so in four separate and independent ways. Napster's argument thus
   depends on a wholesale disregard of what Section 1008 actually says.
  
   1. Napster's Users Are Not Using Any of the "Devices" or "Media"
       Covered by Section 1008
      
   Section 1008 identifies four specific kinds of products whose
   manufacture, distribution, and noncommercial use Congress wished to
   shield from actions for copyright infringement. Those products are
   "[1] a digital audio recording device, [2] a digital audio recording
   medium, [3] an analog recording device, or [4] an analog recording
   medium." 17 U.S.C. =A7 1008. Section 1008 prohibits actions for
   copyright infringement based on "the manufacture, importation, or
   distribution" of these four types of devices and media. Section 1008
   also prohibits actions for copyright infringement based on "the
   noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium" for making
   digital or analog musical recordings.
  
   Nothing in the language of Section 1008 purports to grant
   manufacturers, distributors, or consumers any immunity with respect to
   products other than the devices and media specified in Section 1008
   itself. To the contrary, if an action for infringement does not
   involve the specified devices or media, it falls outside the scope of
   Section 1008 altogether. By its terms, Section 1008 protects consumers
   only from infringement actions that are based on "noncommercial use
   * * * of such a device or medium" (emphasis added). If an infringement
   action rests on consumer use of other products, Section 1008 on its
   face has no applicability to such an action.
  
   In this case, the plaintiffs' copyright claims are not based on the
   use of any of the devices or media covered by the terms of Section
   1008. Napster's users exchange music by using personal computers to
   locate and transfer files from one computer hard disk to another.
   Neither a personal computer nor its hard disk constitutes "a digital
   audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog
   recording device, or an analog recording medium." Napster itself does
   not suggest otherwise.
  
   The terms "digital audio recording device" and "digital audio
   recording medium" are specifically defined in the Act. A "digital
   audio recording device" is defined, with exceptions not relevant here,
   as any machine or device "the digital recording function of which is
   designed or marketed for the primary purpose of, and that is capable
   of, making a digital audio copied recording for private use." 17
   U.S.C. =A7 1001(3) (emphasis added). A "digital audio recording medium"
   is defined (again with inapplicable exceptions) as "any material
   object * * * that is primarily marketed or most commonly used by
   consumers for the purpose of making digital audio copied recordings by
   use of a digital audio recording device." Id. =A7 1001(4)(A) (emphasis
   added).
  
   This Court has already held that the statutory definition of "digital
   audio recording device" does not reach personal computers and their
   hard drives. RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia Systems Inc., 180 F.3d 1072,
   1078 (9th Cir. 1999). Although personal computers are "capable of"
   making "digital audio copied recordings," neither they nor their hard
   drives are "designed or marketed for the primary purpose of" making
   such recordings. Ibid. For similar reasons, hard drives fall outside
   the statutory definition of "digital audio recording medium," since
   they are not "primarily marketed or most commonly used * * * for the
   purpose of" making such recordings. Unlike "digital audio recording
   device" and "digital audio recording medium," the terms "analog
   recording device" and "analog recording medium" are not expressly
   defined in the Act. Congress presumably had in mind the analog
   counterparts to digital audio recording devices and media - for
   example, traditional analog tape decks and analog recording tapes.
   Whatever the precise scope of these terms, however, they cannot
   encompass personal computers and their hard drives, because computers
   process and store information in digital rather than analog form.
   Thus, Napster users are not even arguably using any of the devices and
   media referred to in Section 1008.
  
   2. Napster's Users Are Not Making "Digital Musical Recordings" Or
       "Analog Musical Recordings"
      
   Section 1008 protects the noncommercial consumer use of digital and
   analog recording devices and media for making "digital musical
   recordings or analog musical recordings." 17 U.S.C. =A7 1008. Even if
   Napster's users were using the specified devices or media, they are
   not making "digital musical recordings" or "analog musical
   recordings." Their activities fall outside the scope of Section 1008
   for that reason as well.
  
   The Act defines a "digital musical recording" as "a material object
   * * * in which are fixed, in a digital recording format, only sounds,
   and material, statements, or instructions incidental to those fixed
   sounds, if any * * * ." 17 U.S.C. =A7 1001(5)(A)(i) (emphasis added).
   The definition goes on to exclude, among other things, "a material
   object * * * in which one or more computer programs are fixed * * * ."
   Id. =A7 1001(5)(B)(ii).
  
   Napster's users copy music files to their computers' hard drives. Hard
   drives store data of all kinds, from word processing files to
   multimedia files, and they ordinarily store computer programs as well.
   As a result, hard drives fall outside the statutory definition of
   "digital musical recording" in two respects: first, they are not
   objects in which "only sounds" are "fixed," and second, they are
   objects in which "one or more computer programs are fixed." See
   Diamond Multimedia, 180 F.3d at 1076 ("a hard drive is a material
   object in which one or more programs are fixed; thus, a hard drive is
   excluded from the definition of digital musical recordings").
  
   Unlike "digital musical recording," "analog musical recording" is not
   a defined term under the Act. However, just as a computer's hard drive
   cannot be an "analog recording medium" (see p. 15 supra), neither can
   it be (or be used to store) an "analog musical recording," because
   hard drives store data in digital rather than analog form. Thus,
   Napster's users cannot be claimed to be making either "digital musical
   recordings" or "analog musical recordings" - and if a consumer is not
   making a digital or analog musical recording, the terms of Section
   1008 do not provide him with any immunity.
  
   3. Section 1008 Provides Immunity Only for Noncommercial Copying, Not
       for Public Distribution
      
   The Copyright Act grants the owner of a copyright a number of distinct
   legal rights. See 17 U.S.C. =A7 106(1)-(5). The most widely known right
   is the right of reproduction - the "exclusive right * * * to reproduce
   the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords." Id. =A7 106(1).
   However, the Copyright Act also grants the copyright holder a separate
   and distinct right of public distribution - the "exclusive right * * *
   to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the
   public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or
   lending." Id. =A7 106(3).
  
   The plaintiffs assert not only infringements on the right of
   reproduction, but also infringements on the right of public
   distribution. In the proceedings below, Napster stated that it has at
   least 20 million users, all of whom are able to use Napster's service
   to access and download music files containing copyrighted sound
   recordings. When a Napster user makes the music files on his or her
   hard drive available for downloading by other Napster users, he or she
   is distributing the files to the public at large. Cf. Michaels v.
   Internet Entertainment Group, Inc., 5 F. Supp. 2d 823, 830-31 (C.D.
   Cal.1998); Playboy Enterprises, Inc. v. Webbworld, Inc., 991 F. Supp.
   543, 551 (N.D. Tex. 1997), aff'd mem., 168 F.3d 486 (5th Cir. 1999);
   Marobie-Fl, Inc. v. Nat'l Ass'n of Fire and Equip. Distributors and
   Northwest Nexus, Inc., 983 F. Supp. 1167, 1173 (N.D. Ill. 1997).
  
   To the extent that Napster users are engaged in the distribution of
   copyrighted works to the public at large, such activity falls outside
   the scope of Section 1008. The language of Section 1008 is directed at
   uses that infringe on the right of reproduction, not at uses that
   infringe on the right of public distribution. By its terms, Section
   1008 only bars infringement actions "based on the noncommercial use"
   of the specified products "for making digital musical recordings or
   analog musical recordings" - in other words, for making copies of the
   music. Section 1008 makes no reference, and provides no possible
   defense, to infringement claims based on the public distribution of
   copied works. Thus, even if it were proper to treat the use of
   Napster's service for the public dissemination of copyrighted music as
   a "noncommercial" consumer use, which is far from clear, it is not the
   use at which the terms of Section 1008 are directed - the "making [of]
   digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings."
  
   4. Section 1008 Does Not Transform Infringing Consumer Uses Into
       Non-Infringing Ones
      
   As the foregoing discussion shows, the language of Section 1008 cannot
   be read to encompass the activities of Napster's users. But even if
   Section 1008 did apply to Napster's users, it would not provide
   Napster itself with a defense to liability for contributory or
   vicarious infringement. That is because the terms of Section 1008
   address only whether consumers can be sued for infringement; nothing
   in Section 1008 addresses or changes whether they are engaged in
   infringement.
  
   When Congress has chosen to make particular uses of copyrighted works
   non-infringing, it traditionally has said so expressly. For example,
   the fair use provision of the Copyright Act provides that "the fair
   use of a copyrighted work * * * is not an infringement of copyright."
   17 U.S.C. =A7 107 (emphasis added). Congress has spoken with equal
   clarity regarding other uses. See, e.g., id. =A7 108 ("it is not an
   infringement of copyright" for library or archive to reproduce single
   copies of works under specified conditions); id. =A7 110 (specified
   performances and displays of works "are not infringements of
   copyright"); id. =A7 117 ("it is not an infringement" for owner of copy
   of computer program to make an additional copy for, inter alia,
   archival purposes).
  
   In contrast, Section 1008 of the AHRA conspicuously does not say that
   the activities it describes "are not an infringement of copyright."
   Instead, Section 1008 provides only that "[n]o action may be brought
   under this title alleging infringement of copyright" based on such
   activities. The legislative record indicates that this language
   reflects a deliberate decision by Congress to relieve consumers from
   the threat of copyright liability without altering the underlying
   contours of the copyright laws or resolving the legal debate over the
   legality of home taping. In the words of the Senate Report
   :
  
       [S]ection 1002 [now Section 1008] provides only that certain
       copyright infringement actions are precluded. The section does not
       purport to resolve, nor does it resolve, whether the underlying
       conduct is or is not infringement. The committee intends the
       immunity from lawsuits to provide full protection against the
       specified types of copyright infringement actions, but it has not
       addressed the underlying copyright infringement issue * * * .
      
   Senate Report at 52 (emphasis added).
  
   Thus, assuming for present purposes that Napster's users are engaged
   in copyright infringement, their actions would remain infringing even
   if Section 1008 were applicable to them, since Section 1008 does not
   purport to address the underlying issue of infringement. And if
   Section 1008 does not transform the actions of Napster's users into
   non-infringing uses, then it cannot provide shelter to Napster itself.
   In invoking Section 1008, Napster has argued that it cannot be liable
   for contributory or vicarious infringement if its users are not
   themselves engaged in infringement. Once it is recognized that Section
   1008 does not alter whether the consumer uses that it addresses are
   infringing, Napster's argument falls apart.
  
   It is noteworthy in this regard that Section 1008 expressly provides
   immunity not only for the specified noncommercial consumer use of
   digital and analog recording devices and media, but also for the
   manufacture and distribution of such products. Napster's argument
   assumes that the immunity conferred on consumers is sufficient by
   itself to preclude liability for contributory or vicarious
   infringement on the part of the firms whose products are being used.
   But if that were the case, then there would have been no reason for
   Congress to include distinct immunity protection for manufacturers in
   Section 1008 itself, and the manufacturer immunity language in Section
   1008 would serve no purpose. Napster's argument thus
   conflicts with the elementary principle that "legislative enactments
   should not be construed to render their provisions mere surplusage."
   Dunn v. CFTC, 519 U.S. 465, 472 (1997). The fact that Congress found
   it necessary to extend an express statutory grant of immunity to
   manufacturers, as well as to consumers, confirms that Congress did not
   regard consumer immunity from suit as sufficient by itself to insulate
   other parties from liability for contributory or vicarious
   infringement.
  
       B. Napster's Reliance on Section 1008 Is Inconsistent With the
       Policies Underlying the AHRA
      
   In Diamond Multimedia, this Court observed that it "need not resort to
   the legislative history [when] the statutory language is clear." 180
   F.3d at 1076. Given the clarity with which the language of Section
   1008 prescribes (and circumscribes) the scope of statutory immunity
   under the AHRA, and given Napster's manifest inability to bring this
   case within the language of the statute, resort to the legislative
   history of the AHRA is therefore unnecessary. Nevertheless, if
   recourse is had to the legislative history, it reinforces the
   conclusion that Section 1008 does not protect Napster. Far from
   advancing the policies of the AHRA, Napster's invocation of Section
   1008 is directly contrary to those policies.
  
   1. Napster's Invocation of Section 1008 Upsets the Quid Pro Quo That
       Underlies the Act
      
   The legislative history of the AHRA makes clear that the Act was
   intended by Congress to embody the compromise agreement reached in
   1991 between the music industry on the one hand and the consumer
   electronics industry and consumer groups on the other. See, e.g.,
   Senate Report at 34 ("the competing parties have, through negotiation
   and compromise, reached an agreement which all parties involved feel
   is equitable," and the legislation "reflects this agreement"); House
   Report at 13, reprinted in 1992 USCCAN at 3583 (the Act "preserves the
   essentials of the agreement").
  
   As explained above, the compromise underlying the Act involves a basic
   quid pro quo. In exchange for accepting the marketing of digital audio
   recording technology and the use of such technology for noncommercial
   home taping, the music industry receives financial compensation
   (through the Act's royalty system) and protection against serial
   copying. This quid pro quo was central to the agreement and the
   legislation that embodies it. See, e.g., Senate Report at 30
   (summarizing the purpose and basic elements of the legislation).
  
   Construing Section 1008 to protect Napster would mean repudiating,
   rather than preserving, the quid pro quo underlying the Act. On the
   one hand, Napster would be permitted to facilitate the copying and
   distribution of copyrighted sound recordings on a scale far surpassing
   the "home taping" that Congress foresaw when it enacted the AHRA. On
   the other hand, the products employed by Napster and its users -
   computers and their hard drives -- are not subject to royalty payments
   (by Napster or anyone else) and are not required to be equipped with
   anti-serial copying circuitry, because the royalty and serial copying
   provisions of the Act apply only to "digital audio recording devices"
   and "digital audio recording media," and as shown above, those terms
   exclude computers and hard drives. 17 U.S.C. =A7=A7 1002(a), 1003(a),
   1004; see p. 15 supra. As a result, the music industry would bear the
   burdens of the statute without receiving the corresponding benefits.
  
   The legislative history makes clear that the Act's exclusion of
   computers and hard drives was the product of a deliberate choice by
   Congress. See, e.g., Senate Report at 48 ("a personal computer whose
   recording function is designed and marketed primarily for the
   recording of data and computer programs * * * would [not] qualify as a
   'digital audio recording device'"). In invoking Section 1008, Napster
   is inviting this Court to countermand that legislative choice, and to
   do so in a way that undoes the reciprocal nature of the Act's digital
   recording provisions. That invitation should be declined.
  
   2. Section 1008 Was Not Intended To Immunize All Consumer Copying of
       Musical Recordings
      
   Section 1008 identifies with precision the consumer activity that
   Congress meant to shelter from copyright infringement suits: "the
   noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making
   digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings." 17 U.S.C.
   =A7 1008. Despite the precision of this language, Napster asserts that
   Congress actually intended to immunize "all noncommercial consumer
   copying of music in digital or analog form" (Napster Brief at 20),
   whether or not the copying comes within the terms of Section 1008. But
   Napster has identified nothing in the limited legislative history of
   Section 1008 that supports this argument or overcomes the explicit
   language of the statute.
  
   The following passage from the House Report on the Act is
   representative of the legislative history regarding Section 1008:
  
   Section 1008 covers one of the critical components of the legislation:
       exemptions from liability for suit under title 17 for home taping
       of copyrighted musical works and sound recordings, and for
       contributory infringement actions under title 17 against
       manufacturers, importers, and distributors of digital and analog
       recording devices and recording media. In the case of home taping,
       the exemption protects all noncommercial copying by consumers of
       digital and analog musical recordings. Manufacturers, importers,
       and distributors of digital and analog recording devices and media
       have a complete exemption from copyright infringement claims based
       on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of such devices.
      
   House Report at 24, reprinted in 1992 USCCAN at 3594 (emphasis added).
  
   The highlighted references to "home taping" suggest, not surprisingly,
   that Congress meant to address the problem that gave rise to the AHRA
   - the introduction and use of DAT tape decks and similar digital
   taping technology (see pp. 3-5 supra). There is no indication that
   Congress also meant to cover other kinds of devices and media that
   fall outside the terms of Section 1008. To the contrary, the
   legislative history reiterates the message conveyed by the language of
   the statute itself: Congress meant to "extend[] protection to users of
   such audio recording devices and media by prohibiting copyright
   infringement actions based on the use of such devices and media" to
   make musical recordings. Senate Report at 51 (emphasis added). In
   short, the legislative history confirms that Congress meant what it
   said in Section 1008 - and what Congress said cannot be reconciled
   with what Napster is seeking.
  
   3. The Legislative History of Statutes Other Than the AHRA is
   Irrelevant
  
   In construing the scope of Section 1008, Napster attempts to rely on
   the legislative history of two statutes other than the AHRA - the
   Record Rental Amendment Act of 1984 and the Computer Software Rental
   Amendment Act of 1990. See Napster Brief at 23-24. Napster argues that
   Congress's treatment of "commercial" lending of phonorecords and
   computer software under those two statutes is consistent with
   Napster's reading of Section 1008. The short answer is that this case
   involves the meaning of the AHRA, not the meaning of other statutes.
   Napster's invocation of Section 1008 cannot be sustained on the basis
   of Section 1008's own language and legislative history; a fortiori, it
   cannot be sustained by resort to the language and legislative history
   of unrelated statutes. The Record Rental Amendment Act and the
   Computer Software Rental Amendment Act were both enacted prior to the
   AHRA, and they address entirely different subjects. Neither their
   language nor their legislative history purports to address the meaning
   of Section 1008 in any way.
  
   C. Diamond Multimedia Does Not Resolve the AHRA Immunity Question At
       Issue in This Case
      
   Napster suggests that this Court's decision in Diamond Multimedia
   confirms Napster's reading of Section 1008. It does not. The meaning
   and applicability of Section 1008 were not at issue in Diamond
   Multimedia, and nothing that the Court decided in Diamond Multimedia
   in any way requires the Court to accept Napster's Section 1008 defense
   in this case.
  
   Diamond Multimedia
   involved a suit under the AHRA by the recording industry against the
   manufacturer of the Rio portable music player, a "Walkman-like" device
   that plays MP3 music files. The recording industry claimed that the
   Rio player is a "digital audio recording device" and therefore is
   subject to the Act's royalty and serial copying provisions. Based on
   that claim, the recording industry sought to enjoin the manufacture
   and distribution of the Rio player and to compel Rio's manufacturer
   (Diamond) to make royalty payments under the Act. This Court rejected
   the industry claim, holding that the Rio player does not come within
   the Act's definition of a "digital audio recording device" and
   therefore is not subject to the Act's royalty and serial copying
   requirements. 180 F.3d at 1075-1081.
  
   Diamond Multimedia
   was not an action for copyright infringement. Because Section 1008 of
   the AHRA applies only to "action[s] * * * under this title alleging
   infringement of copyright," it was facially irrelevant to Diamond's
   liability, and Diamond never invoked Section 1008 as a defense.
   Accordingly, the Court was not called on to decide whether Section
   1008 protected Diamond itself, much less whether or how Section 1008
   may protect defendants in other cases that (unlike Diamond Multimedia)
   involve claims of copyright infringement.
  
   Napster relies on a single passage from the Court's opinion in Diamond
   Multimedia:
  
   As the Senate Report explains, "[t]he purpose of [the Act] is to
       ensure the right of consumers to make analog or digital audio
       recordings of copyrighted music for their private, noncommercial
       use." S. Rep. 102-294, at *86 (emphasis added). The Act does so
       through its home taping exemption, see 17 U.S.C. =A7 1008, which
       "protects all noncommercial copying by consumers of digital and
       analog musical recordings," H.R. Rep. 102-873(I), at *59.
      
   180 F.3d at 1079 (emphasis in original).
  
   To the extent that this passage speaks to the meaning of Section 1008,
   it is no more than dictum, since Section 1008 was not at issue in the
   case. In any event, nothing in the passage is in any way inconsistent
   with the proposition that Section 1008 means what it says. The passage
   merely quotes excerpts from the House and Senate Reports regarding the
   purpose of the Act in general and Section 1008 in particular. As shown
   above, when the legislative history is considered in its entirety, it
   directly supports, rather than refutes, the conclusion that Section
   1008 does not protect Napster or its users. Accordingly, nothing in
   Diamond Multimedia provides refuge for Napster in this case.
  
                                 CONCLUSION
  
   For the foregoing reasons, the district court's holding that Section
   1008 of the Audio Home Recording Act does not excuse Napster from
   liability is correct and should be affirmed.
  
   Respectfully submitted,
  
   DAVID O. CARSON DAVID W. OGDEN
       General Counsel Assistant Attorney General
       J. KENT DUNLAP MARK B. STERN
      
   SCOTT R. McINTOSH
  
   United States Copyright Office Attorneys, Appellate Staff
      
   Library of Congress
  
   101 Independence Ave. S.E. Civil Division, Department of Justice
  
   Washington, D.C. 20540 601 D Street N.W., Room 9550
      
   Washington, D.C. 20520
      
   ALBIN F. DROST
  
   Acting General Counsel Counsel for the United States
  
   JUSTIN HUGHES
  
   United States Patent and Trademark Office
  
   P.O. Box 15667
  
   Arlington, VA 22215
  
   Of Counsel
  
  
   September 8, 2000
  
                         CERTIFICATE OF COMPLIANCE
  
   Pursuant to Fed. R. App. P. 29(d)and Ninth Circuit Rule 32-1, I
   certify that the attached amicus brief is proportionately spaced, has
   a typeface of 14 points or more and contains 7000 words or less.
  
   _________________________
       Scott R. McIntosh
      
                           CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
  
   I certify that on September 8, 2000, I filed and served the foregoing
   BRIEF FOR THE UNITED STATES AS AMICUS CURIAE by causing an original
   and 15 copies to be filed with the Clerk of the Court by overnight
   mail and by causing copies to be served on the following counsel by
   overnight mail and (where indicated) by fax:
  
   Carey R. Ramos
  
   Aidan Synnott
  
   Michael Keats
  
   Paul Weiss Rifkind Wharton & Garrison
  
   1285 Avenue of the Americas
  
   New York, NY 10019-6064
  
   (212) 373-3000
  
   (OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   Russell J. Frackman
  
   Jeffrey D. Goldman
  
   George M. Borkowski
  
   Drew E. Breuder
  
   Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp
  
   11377 W Olympic Blvd
  
   Los Angeles, CA 90064
  
   (310) 312-2000
  
   (OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   William M. Hart
  
   Eric J. German
  
   Frank P. Schibilia
  
   Carla M. Miller
  
   Hank L. Goldsmith
  
   Leon P. Gold
  
   Lawrence L. Weinstein
  
   Proskauer Rose LLP
  
   1585 Broadway
  
   New York, NY 10036
  
   (212) 969-3000
  
   Hadrian R. Katz
  
   (202) 942-5000
  
   Arnold & Porter
  
   555 Twelfth Street, NW
  
   Washington, DC 20004
  
   Steven B. Fabrizio
  
   1330 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
  
   Suite 300
  
   Washington, DC 20036
  
   202-775-0101
  
   Lisa M. Arent
  
   Melinda M. Morton
  
   Michael A. Brille
  
   Samuel A. Kaplan
  
   William Jackson
  
   Seth A. Goldberg
  
   Fenwick & West LLP
  
   Two Palo Alto Sq Ste 800
  
   Palo Alto, CA 94306
  
   650-494-0600
  
   (BY OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   Laurence F. Pulgram
  
   Kathryn J. Fritz
  
   Fenwick & West LLP
  
   275 Battery Street
  
   15th Floor
  
   San Francisco, CA 94111
  
   415-875-2300
  
   (BY OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   David Boies
  
   Boies Schiller & Flexner LLP
  
   80 Business Park Drive
  
   Suite 110
  
   Armonk, NY 10504
  
   (914) 273-9800
  
   (BY OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   Albert P. Bedecarre
  
   Quinn Emanuel Urquhart Oliver &
  
   Hedges, LLP
  
   2479 East Bayshore Road
  
   Suite 820
  
   Palo Alto, CA 94303
  
   650-494-3900
  
   Hannah Bentley
  
   394 Scenic Avenue
  
   San Anselmo, CA 94960
  
  
  
   _________________________
  
   Scott R. McIntosh



----- End forwarded message -----



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From ppphones at lycos.com  Fri Sep  8 19:17:04 2000
From: ppphones at lycos.com (personal-pay-phones)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:17:04
Subject: CDR: I'm tired of getting SCREWED!!!
Message-ID: <200009090227.WAA03992@mail.virtual-estates.net>

Get back what you've put in!!!

WIN a personal pay telephone, go to http://www.personalpayphone.com

PAY telephones are the hottest collectibles today.

Functional and a great conversation piece.

Accepts coins or not!

Great for kids areas, great rooms, focal points, VERY RETRO-SHIEK!!!

CLICK HERE>>>http://www.personalpayphone.com<<


********


From Me at smtp11.bellglobal.com  Fri Sep  8 17:04:13 2000
From: Me at smtp11.bellglobal.com (Me at smtp11.bellglobal.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:04:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: Important Text  - Something I need to tell you.
Message-ID: <200009082356.TAA24431@smtp11.bellglobal.com>

We're not weird.................We're sexy!!!

http://205.232.74.175




This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301.per section 301, paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S.1618, http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html

Further transmissions to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by replying to this e-mail with the words "remove" in the subject line.










From gazzas at themail.com  Fri Sep  8 20:09:27 2000
From: gazzas at themail.com (gazzas at themail.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: The magic EMS program now special price! Bypasses your ISP !!
Message-ID: <200009090309.UAA16210@cyberpass.net>

Fantastic "EMS" the full version only $20 !! Save over $120 on 
this very special offer! 
EMS ("EXPRESS Mail Server") BYPASSES YOUR ISP. SEND YOUR ADVERTS 
TO THOUSANDS !! THE NO FLAME WAY !! Do whatever you want while EMS 
sends out your adverts to thousands for you ! 
You read about it ! Heard about it ! Wanted it but its been to 
expensive for you ! 
OK !OK ! we heard you ! Special for the this month only, We have 
now lowered the price to a magic \\$20 US// dollars instead of the 
advertised normal selling price of $149 US dollars. Now every one 
can afford to buy and use this fantastic program. 
Price for the EMS program is based on CASH only to help keep down 
the price AND to safe gard your Credit card security on the Web. 
We guarantee that the EMS program will be fowarded to you once 
payment is received at this office. 
Not sure,then email us for your full version DEMO copy first, 
you'll be so glad you did ! 
Mail cash or money order and include your email address to,
G.Tomlin 
45 Emperor Avenue 
Maroochydore 
Qld 
Australia 4558 





From reivesfamilly at alltel.net  Fri Sep  8 18:20:27 2000
From: reivesfamilly at alltel.net (Michael Reives)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:20:27 -0400
Subject: CDR: GSM?
Message-ID: <000a01c019fc$304ed6a0$5bd566a6@dell>

Please!  Any help will do because I have none.  I want to learn more about the sim card in the gsm phones.  I have the Maki pro and sim edit for kids but I dont have the procedure.  

If you dont know can you direct me to who does?

Thanks

skyjacker at mail.com 
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From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Sep  8 20:33:29 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 23:33:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: 

At 05:59 PM 9/8/00 -0400, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, David Honig wrote:
>> Ultimately law is backed by violence.
>> 
>
>And therefore it is bad....yadda, yadda, yadda
>
>Bullshit. That is such a general statement as to be worthless.
>
>The 'law' stems from the individual right to self-defence. Law is backed
>by violence because that is what is is about.

So this affects the morality/legitimacy of a so-called 'non-governmental'
tax-collection agency how? 

>To then try to portray this as the stem of human abuse of same is simply
>abusive to the reader. 

To imagine that paying GEMA is voluntary is delusional.



>Your thesis is self-referential, inconsequential, and still born.

So you don't like it then? 








  








From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Sep  9 01:44:18 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 01:44:18 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000908135730.00af9960@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20000908020659.00aa9200@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000909014418.00a0be80@idiom.com>

>>Any symmetric algorithm will have maxed out by 256 bits, and most by 128,
>>though you may want different keys for your two directions.
>>So generating the DH key with 1024 bits is probably enough,
>>though it doesn't hurt much to do 2048 or 4096 -
>>no need for separately generating a key and shipping it.
>>In particular, DH takes advantage of both machines' sources of randomness,
>>which is a major win over something generated by one end
>>unless you've got a good reason for it.
>
>Well, the information I have is that Blowfish takes up to 448 bits, RC2 up 
>to 1024 bits, Mars up to 1248bits, RC5 and RC6 both up to 2048 bits of key 
>material.. is that incorrect?

Not incorrect, but 2**256 possible keys gets you into 
age-of-the-universe territory for cracking.


>This brings up another question.  My document states that Cast256, IDEA(*), 
>Mars, Misty1(*), RC5, and RC6 are all patented.. * = "Free for 
>noncommercial use."  Is there a good repository somewhere with information 
>on all the licensing issues/rules of these algorithms?

I'm not aware of one.  IDEA's "non-commercial" definitions have gotten
fuzzier over the years, and it's patented in lots of places.
Avoid Misty.  Several of the AES candidates had policies of
"it's patented now but if we're the AES winner you can all use it for free",
which means you won't really know licensing issues until NIST picks a winner.




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From raferty at bellsouth.net  Fri Sep  8 23:10:19 2000
From: raferty at bellsouth.net (Raferty)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 02:10:19 -0400
Subject: CDR: Bumper sticker
Message-ID: <000801c01a24$a24eec40$0e823dd0@darkpoet>

Hello,
I found your site while searching for amendments, but couldn't see the bumper stickers page. They sound like what I am looking for so could you help? I have a web site of information for the public. I am trying to stop our government from misrepresenting our bill of wrights.
Thanks Herb Davis.
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From all at biosys.net  Sat Sep  9 02:06:08 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 05:06:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000909014418.00a0be80@idiom.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000908135730.00af9960@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20000908020659.00aa9200@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000909045532.00b184e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 01:44 09/09/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:



>Not incorrect, but 2**256 possible keys gets you into
>age-of-the-universe territory for cracking.

Well yes, but better safe than sorry.. you never know when the next 
breakthrough might come that makes anything under 256bits "weak."  Not too 
likely I know, but doesn't hurt to keep that in mind.

>I'm not aware of one.  IDEA's "non-commercial" definitions have gotten
>fuzzier over the years, and it's patented in lots of places.
>Avoid Misty.  Several of the AES candidates had policies of
>"it's patented now but if we're the AES winner you can all use it for free",
>which means you won't really know licensing issues until NIST picks a winner.

Ah.. I'll just have to keep digging myself.. maybe I'll put together a page 
of my own for this purpose.  It's aggravating having to dig all over the 
place for this kind of info.

What's the deal with Misty?


....signature....

PGP Key ID:
0xCCC57FD7

PGP Key Fingerprint:
446B 7718 B219 9F1E 43DD  8E4A 6BE9 D739 CCC5 7FD7

Available from ldap://certserver.pgp.com




From ppphones at lycos.com  Sat Sep  9 08:59:28 2000
From: ppphones at lycos.com (personal-pay-phones)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 08:59:28
Subject: CDR: I'm tired of getting SCREWED!!!
Message-ID: <200009091611.MAA22695@mail.virtual-estates.net>

Get back what you've put in!!!

WIN a personal pay telephone, go to http://www.personalpayphone.com

PAY telephones are the hottest collectibles today.

Functional and a great conversation piece.

Accepts coins or not!

Great for kids areas, great rooms, focal points, VERY RETRO-SHIEK!!!

CLICK HERE>>>http://www.personalpayphone.com<<

DNA evidence has proven so useful in police work that, the US Department
of Justice is developing a bank of DNA culled from ordinary house cats,
reports the SAN FRANCISCO EXAMINER.

No, there isnt a feline delinquency problem spreading across the US. It
turns out that criminals who own cats frequently have cat hair on their
clothes, just like law-abiding cat owners. Some of that cat hair winds
up at crime scenes, and can provide important clues to solving a crime
if it can be traced to an individual cat, and from there to its owner.
The DOJ is asking cat owners to voluntarily send in a sample of Fluffys
genetic material (although why the criminally inclined would do so is a
mystery).

Cat-based crime fighting has already borne fruit: A man in Canada was
convicted of murdering his ex-wife, based partially on the fact that
hair from his cat, Snowball, was found at the murder scene.  Snowball
was questioned and released.





From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep  9 07:33:34 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:33:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Languages and the Internet Forum LIST (fwd)
Message-ID: 



    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:10:16 -0400
From: "Karl E. Peters" 
Reply-To: orange at dns.list
To: "discuss at ador-doc.org" ,
    Domain Policy List ,
    "idno-discuss at idno.org" 
Subject: Languages and the Internet Forum LIST

Dear Friends,
    Seeing that languages, like UDRP, tends to generate a lot of smoke,
I have arranged for a special list called "Lingua at domain-owners.org" for
the purpose of running dialogues on the topic of languages and the
internet, both for those interested from a user standpoint and those who
stand to develop the technologies. (I think it is good if these groups
know each other!!!)
    As in the case of UDRP at domain-owners.org, it will be an open list
with a specific interest and all with sincere interest in the subject
are welcome to join in or simply lurk and glean ideas  Some of you are
like me and just intensely interested and others will be the technical
genius required to make it all come together, but all are welcome.

Auf wieder zehn...

Karl E. Peters
karl.peters at bridgecompanies.com






From emc at chao.insync.net  Sat Sep  9 09:47:11 2000
From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:47:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: FBI Profiles of "School Shooters"
Message-ID: <200009091647.LAA15429@chao.insync.net>

It's interesting to notice the not particularly subtle anti-youth bias in
the FBI's recently released profiles of people they allege are likely to
commit violence in schools.  Indeed, the terms used are very negative and
propagandistic ways of characterizing practically anyone who isn't
carefully controlled in thinking and behavior, denied free access to
information, and trained to be an obedient doormat for all authority
figures.

It would be very difficult for any student to not fit some of the factors
listed, unless he were the world's greatest Uncle Tom and kissed Massah's
ass on a regular basis while ignoring the screams of his fellow inmates
while pretending to enjoy the public school experience.

Let's look at how the FBI's factors might be expressed in more
conventional language.

"Student collects injustices and nurses resentments" - Student has
reasonable expectations that he and other students will be treated
decently, and remembers the names of teachers and administrators who have
a long track record of showing disrespect and contempt for students.

"Shows exaggerated sense of entitlement" - Expects the school system and
those who work there to be held accountable for the quality of service
provided.

"Signs of depression and a pathological need for attention" - Becomes
unhappy when he and other students are treated unjustly, and seeks to find
someone who will listen and remedy the situation.

"Student's relationship with parents is particularly difficult or
turbulent" - Student has high standards for how he is treated at home too.

"Parents accept or minimize pathological behavior, setting few limits and
possibly seeming intimidated by student" - Parents don't automatically
take the side of the school against their child when a disagreement
arises.

"Student has access to weapons and there is little monitoring of what he
watches on TV or the Internet" - The child's home environment is one where
privacy, freedom of information, and the Second Amendment are all
respected.

"Student is detached from other students, teachers, and school activities"
- Student has better things to do with his time, than spend 100% of it on
school-sponsored busy work.

"School does little to prevent or punish disrespectful behavior or
bullying" - School does not interfere in student socialization unless an
obviously serious problem arises.

"A pecking order exists among students, who also observe a code of silence
about telling staff of their concerns about other students" - Students
refuse to cooperate in ratting out people to the school's profiling
program.

"Access to computers and the Internet is unsupervised" - The School
follows the guidelines of the American Library Association.

"Student is intensely and exclusively involved with a group that shares a
fascination with violence and extremist beliefs" - Student refuses to
criticize Columbine shooters in school-ordered classroom writing
assignment, given with the ulterior motive of prying into student's
political beliefs.

Indeed, the wording of most of these things is exactly like what spews out
of the mouth of the typical public school teacher, when a student or the
parent of a student has a grievance with the school.  Complaining about
anything is "attention seeking," getting pissed off is "nursing
resentments," the parent defending the child is "the child running the
home and no limits being set," etc,etc,etc...

The whole attitude expressed by the government here is a really great
argument for private schooling or homeschooling.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From james at echeque.com  Sat Sep  9 10:39:47 2000
From: james at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:39:47 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: GA-CAT-CA
In-Reply-To: <972fe528f885bac57d17331e4124df52@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000909103839.02544ee8@shell11.ba.best.com>

     --
At 09:20 AM 9/9/2000 -0700, A. Melon wrote:
 >  Some of that cat hair winds up at crime scenes, and can provide
 >  important clues to solving a crime if it can be traced to an
 >  individual cat, and from there to its owner. The DOJ is asking cat
 >  owners to voluntarily send in a sample of Fluffys genetic material

No sillier than gun control laws.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      Qvi+22lHbYjc/uDiq/wCio5RxLzD35y01dFGfFbT
      4unQ/SkRlOCityuei6yEbm2s1ulzWrZ+vnkyN8rIT




From givolont at tin.it  Sat Sep  9 02:40:20 2000
From: givolont at tin.it (Anselmo)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 11:40:20 +0200
Subject: CDR: Ebonite
Message-ID: <007801c01a41$fa01eb00$9c1ed8d4@tin.it.Clubnet.tin.it>

hhttp://space.tin.it/scienza/gvolonta/ebanite
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From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sat Sep  9 11:46:40 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:46:40 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: GA-CAT-CA
References: <4.3.1.2.20000909103839.02544ee8@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <39BA8580.542F61CF@acmenet.net>

"James A. Donald" wrote:
> At 09:20 AM 9/9/2000 -0700, A. Melon wrote:
>  >  Some of that cat hair winds up at crime scenes, and can provide
>  >  important clues to solving a crime if it can be traced to an
>  >  individual cat, and from there to its owner. The DOJ is asking cat
>  >  owners to voluntarily send in a sample of Fluffys genetic material
> 
> No sillier than gun control laws.

Potentially even more infringing on rights, though, at least in the
US. We have the 2nd Amendment, which keeps some of the police
state behavior at bay. I can't think, offhand, of any provision in the
US Constitution which would prevent City Hall from mandating a hair
sample from every pet. New York constitution neither, though that's so
cumbersome and poorly organized that there might be something tucked
away.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sat Sep  9 12:02:09 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 15:02:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000908135730.00af9960@mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000909045532.00b184e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <39BA8926.4140BD89@acmenet.net>

Asymmetric wrote:
...
> What's the deal with Misty?

You're supposed to play it for me.

Was that a personal note to Bill Stewart, or did my mail server
hiccup?

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep  9 13:32:32 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 15:32:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: UK Crypto Meet (fwd)
Message-ID: 



    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:09:22 +0100
From: Ben Laurie 
To: Cryptography , Coderpunks ,
    UKCrypto List 
Subject: UK Crypto Meet

I intend to arrange a short Cypher/Coderpunks-style meeting in London
during ApacheCon, which is 23-25th October at the Olympia Conference
Centre.

The main purpose of the meeting will be to discuss whether we should
have real crypto meetings in the London area, and how/where/when to do
that.

If anyone plans to come, then let me know (I'll need to know numbers so
I can book a room). If anyone cares which day/time, let me know. If
anyone wants to talk about anything in particular, let me know.

If no-one plans to come, I'll give up on the idea, so do tell me if you
are up for it!

Cheers,

Ben.

--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html

Coming to ApacheCon Europe 2000? http://apachecon.com/




From B23655 at fpmqudftct.monsterice.com  Sat Sep  9 13:34:08 2000
From: B23655 at fpmqudftct.monsterice.com (B23655 at fpmqudftct.monsterice.com)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 15:34:08 -0500
Subject: CDR: Investors Have Money!  Looking for Additional Investors!
Message-ID: 


Hello!

Are you an investor or would you be interested in investing in startup or 
existing businesses?

Are you looking for an investor for your company... please fill out 
questionnaire and appropriate fields! ALL QUESTIONS MUST BE COMPLETED THAT 
PERTAIN TO YOUR SITUATION!

W e'll put the investors in contact with companies needing capital 
investments.

All you have to do is fill out this questionnaire and fax it to us and we 
will match your investment interests with companies seeking investors.

Here is a sample of the areas investors are needed: 

Portals, Internet Technologies, Real Estate Investment, Foreclosures, 
Mortgage, Online Malls, Telecommunications, Business Startups, Business 
Expansion, and etc.


Company Name: _______________________________

First name: ___________________________________

Last name: ___________________________________

Street: _______________________________________

City: ________________________________________

State: _______________________________________

Country: _____________________________________

Zip Code: ______________________________

Email Address: _______________________________

Best Time to reach you?: _________________

What is your Time Zone?: ________________

Phone: ________________________________

Cell phone: ____________________________

Fax: __________________________________

Preferred Method of contact:  Phone  Email  Fax

How Much Willing to Invest? $______________

Terms: ________________________________

Venture Capital: Yes or No

Loans: Yes or No					

Grants: Yes or No

Please Specify Investment of interest: 
_______________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________
_

______________________________________________________________________________
_

______________________________________________________________________________
_
You can specify or just select ALL investments!


Signature: ________________________________________ Date: 
_________________________

This information is confidential and WILL NOT BE RESOLD or devulged without a 
subpoena. You will only be contacted by investment interest.  We guarantee you 
will not be contacted unless you specify the interest area.

Looking for an Investor?: Yes or No

What kind of business venture?: ___________

______________________________________

How many Yrs. in Business: ______________

Purpose: ______________________________

______________________________________


Please Fax This application to 1-309-414-6969  Please do not respond to this 
email because a human will not look view it. Thanks!




From steve at itagain2069.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Sep  9 16:43:14 2000
From: steve at itagain2069.freeserve.co.uk (steven miller)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 16:43:14 -0700
Subject: CDR: RE: Dead Diana
Message-ID: <000701c01ab7$b9b8b080$2fdd883e@srm>

Hi mate

So how do I view pictures of Diana in the wreckage?

Cheers

Steve
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From eteam2000 at bigfoot.com  Sat Sep  9 15:39:20 2000
From: eteam2000 at bigfoot.com (Elan 1)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 17:39:20 -0500
Subject: CDR: Tick Tock
Message-ID: <200009092139.OAA07339@cyberpass.net>

Hello,
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eteam2000 at bigfoot.com?subject=InfoOutsideTheBox



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From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Sat Sep  9 16:55:17 2000
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred  Guerin)
Date: Sat,  9 Sep 2000 18:55:17 -0500
Subject: CDR: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
Message-ID: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net>

?

cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.

Has there been failure/problems with the algebra.com server, or is there known reasons for these strange messages rather than the relay?

(I do not know the scope of this problem, nor if CDR admins are aware of the problem, hopefully so, if not, I have a nice log of 50 or so messages from the algebra.com server with null content and otherwise useless purpose :) )

(Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)

-WLG





From billp at nmol.com  Sat Sep  9 18:20:01 2000
From: billp at nmol.com (billp at nmol.com)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:20:01 -0600
Subject: CDR: who is masanori fushimi
Message-ID: <39BAE1C1.762B6A66@nmol.com>

I just did a who is on masanori fushimi in google.
http://www.google.com/search?q=who+is+masanori+fushimi

I think we should do some positive stuff

http://share.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/load1.html
http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/load2.htm

I despise what they did.

NSA lawsuit 1   2   3      Thursday July 27, 2000 09:53

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Don Hewitt: "a randy old goat" Tuesday August 22, 2000 10:56 60 Minutes
to Detonation Don Hewitt sex scandal. 1  Don Hewitt and the Iranian
slaughter. Don Hewitt and the NSA 1



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secret Compartmented Information  1   2   Thursday August 24, 2000 14:39

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds   0

History for the NSA FOIA lawsuit
Appeals process tutorial   Saturday February 5, 2000 12:32
Docket    Sunday February 27, 2000 13:34

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/

Be kind of fun to send them to the Evin for question and answer time.

But I'm on to other things

http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/








From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep  9 17:34:19 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 19:34:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
In-Reply-To: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: 


I haven't seen any problems. No empty messages or such. No bounces, no
unavailable hosts, etc.

Probably need to drop Igor a line...

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Wilfred  Guerin wrote:

> ?
> 
> cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.
> 
> Has there been failure/problems with the algebra.com server, or is there known reasons for these strange messages rather than the relay?
> 
> (I do not know the scope of this problem, nor if CDR admins are aware of the problem, hopefully so, if not, I have a nice log of 50 or so messages from the algebra.com server with null content and otherwise useless purpose :) )
> 
> (Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)
> 
> -WLG
> 
> 




From umbros68 at one.net.au  Sat Sep  9 05:16:02 2000
From: umbros68 at one.net.au (scott mckay)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:46:02 +0930
Subject: CDR: hey whats this site !@
Message-ID: <000801c01a57$b9b815e0$6e5d65cb@default>

HEY THERE IS THIS A SITE FOR CREDIT CARS LET ME KNOW THANKS UMBROS68 at ONE.NET.AU 

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From matt at investigativeprofessionals.com  Sun Sep 10 00:14:20 2000
From: matt at investigativeprofessionals.com (Matt James)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 00:14:20
Subject: CDR: Directory of Investigative Professionals
Message-ID: <200009100416.VAA22088@cyberpass.net>



Good Day,

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Investigative Professionals," a global register of professional
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Your "listing" is no ordinary "listing."  You get an entire Web page to
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Change your information on-line, anytime.  Add monthly specials, announce new products.

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Here is the direct link to sign up:
http://investigativeprofessionals.com/register/index.html

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Director of Advertising & Member Relations.
matt at investigativeprofessionals.com


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~

I choose to not list my company in the "Directory of Investigative
Professionals,":
http://investigativeprofessionals.com/remove.htm

 




From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com  Sat Sep  9 21:34:34 2000
From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 00:34:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: Congratulations, on your $25.00 USD win!
Message-ID: <200009100427.VAA21566@toad.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Sep 10 04:23:10 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:10 -0700
Subject: CDR: test: ignore: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
In-Reply-To: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000910042310.00a92170@idiom.com>

You sent your message to toad.com; I'm trying this through algebra.com.

At 06:55 PM 9/9/00 -0500, "Wilfred  Guerin"  wrote:
>?
>
>cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from
owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.
>
>Has there been failure/problems with the algebra.com server, or is there
known reasons for these strange messages rather than the relay?
>
>(I do not know the scope of this problem, nor if CDR admins are aware of
the problem, hopefully so, if not, I have a nice log of 50 or so messages
from the algebra.com server with null content and otherwise useless purpose
:) )
>
>(Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)
>
>-WLG
>
>
>
>
>
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From joyce at youpy.fr  Sun Sep 10 01:23:33 2000
From: joyce at youpy.fr (joyce at youpy.fr)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:33 -0400
Subject: CDR: Break the Chains of Everyday Employment                         22441
Message-ID: <000058250f7e$00004742$000057a9@server1.fesco.co.nz>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Sep 10 04:30:21 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:30:21 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: test: ignore: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction? - Seems to work!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000910042310.00a92170@idiom.com>
References: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000910043021.007a7d90@idiom.com>

I don't know if algebra's sending out bad messages, but 
this one worked fine.  I'm using cypherpunks at cyberpass.net as my cpunks feed,
so that says it's getting between those two just fine.

At 04:23 AM 9/10/00 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>You sent your message to toad.com; I'm trying this through algebra.com.
>
>At 06:55 PM 9/9/00 -0500, "Wilfred  Guerin"  wrote:
>>?
>>
>>cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from
>owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.
...
>>(Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)



Headers if you want them:
=====================================
Return-Path: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Received: from wormwood.pobox.com (localhost.pobox.com [127.0.0.1])
	by wormwood.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6DC47297B
	for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:25:35 -0400 (EDT)
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X-Relay-IP: 209.209.13.26
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Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000910042310.00a92170 at idiom.com>
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:10 -0700
To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
From: Bill Stewart 
Old-Subject: test: ignore: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
In-Reply-To: <200009091855.AA2643394660 at mail.ev1.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject:  test: ignore: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Precedence: first-class
Reply-To: Bill Stewart 
X-List: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
X-UIDL: 078ec938d46bf0807ff8995691e7af79

======================


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Sep 10 06:32:17 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:32:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Test - No Reply
Message-ID: 


1

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From webmaster at rgh-hgh-anti-aging.com  Sun Sep 10 07:50:58 2000
From: webmaster at rgh-hgh-anti-aging.com (webmaster at rgh-hgh-anti-aging.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:50:58 -0500
Subject: CDR: You have just WON A FREE Commercial Website!
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From ichudov at algebra.com  Sun Sep 10 08:57:49 2000
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 10:57:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
In-Reply-To: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net> from "Wilfred  Guerin" at Sep 09, 2000 06:55:17 PM
Message-ID: <200009101557.KAA11175@manifold.algebra.com>

I just checked it, seemslike it's working fine.

next time please Cc: your message to ichudov at algebra.com. I am busy
developing www.algebra.com and do not read this list regularky.

igor


igor

Wilfred  Guerin wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
> cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.
> 
> Has there been failure/problems with the algebra.com server, or is there known reasons for these strange messages rather than the relay?
> 
> (I do not know the scope of this problem, nor if CDR admins are aware of the problem, hopefully so, if not, I have a nice log of 50 or so messages from the algebra.com server with null content and otherwise useless purpose :) )
> 
> (Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)
> 
> -WLG
> 
> 



	- Igor.




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Sep 10 09:47:36 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:47:36 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: GA-CAT-CA
In-Reply-To: <972fe528f885bac57d17331e4124df52@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000910094601.0081ad30@pop.sprynet.com>

At 12:21 PM 9/9/00 -0400, A. Melon wrote:
>DNA evidence has proven so useful in police work that, the US Department
>of Justice is developing a bank of DNA culled from ordinary house cats,
>reports the SAN FRANCISCO EXAMINER.

I had the misfortune to awaken to an NPR report about this.  What they
are assembling is not a full sequencing of Felix (first they'll do
mice or chimps, after people) but a map of 'markers', which are the 
little fragments that individuals have or don't have.  They need to
know how these are distributed in catdom and vary between the races of cats
---just like they do for humans (the one-in-a-zillion paternity- or
forensic- type stats are conditional on race).  

Clearly cypherpunks need to pass around a bowl of cat hair at the next
meeting... give a little, take a little.. the host isn't allergic, is he?












  








From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Sep 10 10:00:09 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:00:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: good faith distraction material
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000910095839.008278b0@pop.sprynet.com>

	
One of the studys more unusual recommendations called for the
                    government to use the Internet to "reduce the
unrestrained public
                    appetite for "secrets by providing good faith
distraction material."
                    The Internet, according to the studys authors, could
be used to help
                    "channel public interest toward already appropriately
declassified
                    material and possibly lessen FOIA requests." 

"Internet enables surfing for
                    secrets "
http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2000/0828/web-secret-08-28-00.asp







  








From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Sep 10 10:07:40 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:07:40 -0400
Subject: CDR: big brother for toddlers [parents using webcams at preschools]
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000910100559.008288d0@pop.sprynet.com>




http://www.latimes.com/editions/orange/20000910/t000085298.html
	
Keeping a Remote Eye on Day-Care
                                          Kids 
                                             Parents can monitor live video
of kids
                                          via Webcams, thanks to a Newport
firm.
                                          More centers are likely to join. 

                                          By MATTHEW EBNET, Times Staff
                                          Writer


                                               For Judi McDill, the video
window in
                                          the corner of her computer screen
is the
                                          only connection with her son
during the
                                          day. On the Web, she watches him eat
                                          lunch, stand on chairs with that
coltish
                                          wiggle in his knees, fuss with
his shirt
                                          buttons. Sometimes, when the
5-year-old
                                          notices the camera in his
day-care center,
                                          he waves. 
                                               All day she watches. 
                                               Chase, 5, was attending
Southcoast
                                          Early Childhood Learning Center
in Costa
                                          Mesa when a man crashed his Cadillac
                                          into the playground last year,
killing two
                                          children. So when McDill looked
for a
                                          new school, she was sold on Newport
                                          Harbor Montessori Center because
of its
                                          Webcam service. The Webcam offers
                                          "some peace to [my] soul" about
her son's
                                          well-being. 
                                               "I know it couldn't prevent
something
                                          bad happening again, but it gives me
                                          reassurance about his safety," said
                                          McDill, 35, who lives in Orange.
"The
                                          teachers know they are being
watched at
                                          any time. The biggest thing for
me is that I
                                          can just see him. I can see him.
And I can
                                          touch him in some way." 
                                               A year-old Newport Beach
company
                                          offers the Webcam service, which has
                                          been picked up by five Orange County
                                          child-care centers and is being
considered
                                          by five others. The company
provides the
                                          schools with $800 computers, the
cameras
                                          and high-speed Internet
connections for
                                          free, in exchange for full
participation
                                          from parents in the Webcam program,
                                          called GuardianCam. The parents
pay $10
                                          to $20 a month for the service.
All they
                                          need is a computer at work to
watch. The
                                          company also is installing
equipment in
                                          five schools in the San Diego
area and is
                                          "talking to" 42 preschools in the
San
                                          Francisco area. 
                                               Jennifer Lovely of Newport
Beach
                                          said she got the idea for the
company
                                          when she found it hard to leave
her own
                                          son Joseph, 4, in a home day-care
center.
                                          With help from some technologically
                                          savvy friends, Lovely created the
                                          company and began approaching
                                          preschools. She now employs 10
                                          people--and watches Joseph via her
                                          computer as he attends Newport
Harbor
                                          Montessori. 
                                               Lovely wasn't the first to
think of the
                                          idea. The first online video
system was
                                          launched in early 1997 at a day-care
                                          center in Connecticut. Also in 1997,
                                          Cathy's Kids Club in Tustin
installed
                                          video cameras in classrooms to
broadcast
                                          still pictures on the Internet
for parents to
                                          monitor their children. That
system is still
                                          in place, an employee there said. 
                                               Still, concerns have been
raised about
                                          such systems, by teachers and
sociologists
                                          who question just how much parents
                                          should be overseeing their
children during
                                          the school day. And some
conservative
                                          commentators have huffed that if
parents
                                          want to watch their children so
badly, they
                                          should stay at home with them. 
                                               But Lovely says she has not
heard any
                                          such complaints. 
                                               "This is just a sign that
people are
                                          saying, 'Yes, I have to work,'
but they are
                                          finding other ways to connect
with their
                                          families," she said. "This is one
way of
                                          doing it that works. . . . I know
it is
                                          one-way communication, but it is
                                          something." 
                                               Lovely said some schools were
                                          apprehensive, especially about the
                                          requirement that all parents
participate in
                                          the program; that adds cost to
already
                                          expensive day-care fees. But other
                                          schools were eager to join in,
wanting
                                          another opportunity to allay
concerns
                                          about safety in child-care centers,
                                          particularly after the Costa Mesa
crash. 
                                               "There's this fear out
there," said
                                          Jamee Backus, director of Newport
                                          Harbor Montessori Center, which
cares
                                          for about 160 children. "I feel
like this
                                          abolishes all that fear. Parents
can log on.
                                          Then they can ask their children
about
                                          their day. The parents know what
to ask.
                                          Like, 'Hey, I saw you were
working on a
                                          science project. . . .' And the
children feel
                                          more connected with their
parents. You
                                          can feel it in them. You can see
it when
                                          they wave into the cameras. It is
darling." 
                                               Sometimes the video can be
frustrating,
                                          however; the quality of the
images can be
                                          uneven and jerky. The video produces
                                          seven frames per second, compared
with
                                          about 30 for television. The
video offers
                                          detail and color, but no sound. 
                                               But even if technology
doesn't allow
                                          for perfect, real-time video yet,
                                          participating parents and schools
say the
                                          idea offers a sense of security. 
                                               "For the parent it shows we
have
                                          nothing to hide," Backus said,
"and they
                                          don't have to come and check on
their
                                          child." 
                                               Backus said about two dozen
parents
                                          enrolled in the school
specifically for the
                                          cameras, and about a third of
them were
                                          single parents looking for some
way to
                                          stay in touch with their children. 
                                               One 31-year-old mother sends
her
                                          child to a preschool in the
county that uses
                                          the cameras. She did not want her
name
                                          used because of concerns about her
                                          4-year-old daughter's safety. 
                                               She said the cameras were
the biggest
                                          selling point for her school. 
                                               "It just makes sense," she
said.
                                          "There's a lot to worry about. I
have
                                          [video] on all day. All day.
Without it, I
                                          can ask her how her day was and
she just
                                          says, 'OK' or 'Fine.' But this
way I can ask
                                          her specifically about what she's
done. I
                                          also can call her on it when she
puts her
                                          feet on the table. She's not
supposed to put
                                          those feet on the table." 







  








From TheBlackList-optin-conf-492910394.5351109 at topica.com  Sun Sep 10 13:16:01 2000
From: TheBlackList-optin-conf-492910394.5351109 at topica.com (TheBlackList -eMail News, Kwasi Akyeampong)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:16:01 -0700
Subject: CDR: REPLY REQUIRED: Subscription to TheBlackList News Information -eMail offered
Message-ID: <0.0.244528018-951758591-968616961@topica.com>


Hello,

TheBlackList -eMail News, Kwasi Akyeampong, the owners of the email list 'TheBlackList News Information -eMail', 
are inviting you to join this list at Topica.

Here's the description of the list:

TheBlackList is a moderated email list that informs the
African Nationalist and the Afro-Centric
about issues relevant to our cause.
No Cause is local.   If it concerns you, it concerns us, ALL Africans - those at home and those abroad.


TO SUBSCRIBE TO THIS LIST:

Simply click reply in your email program, and then send - we'll 
automatically add you to the list. 

If this list does not interest you (or you do not want to join 
the list at this time), just ignore this message and you will 
not be added.

If you have any questions about the list, you can contact the 
list owners at any of these addresses: TBLeNews at earthlink.net, mgbbs at juno.com.

Thank you,

Natasha
Topica Customer Support




From whgiii at openpgp.net  Sun Sep 10 10:32:19 2000
From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:32:19 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Hardware support for trusted pc
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000907130625.00804ce0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <200009101731.NAA32022@domains.invweb.net>

In <3.0.6.32.20000907130625.00804ce0 at pop.sprynet.com>, on 09/07/00 
   at 02:07 PM, David Honig  said:

>Basically next year you could get a motherboard with a security module
>onboard.  Which is both your friend, and not.

 more "warm-fuzzies" marketing hype.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III      http://www.openpgp.net  
Geiger Consulting    

Data Security & Cryptology Consulting
Programming, Networking, Analysis
 
PGP for OS/2:               http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
E-Secure:                   http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------





From Cyph-Relay at aadp.no  Sun Sep 10 15:56:38 2000
From: Cyph-Relay at aadp.no (Cyph-Relay)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:56:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: Simulations...
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000910185638.008beca0@aadp.no>

..



..




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Sep 10 21:29:08 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:29:08 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:12 PM -0500 9/10/00, Jim Choate wrote:
>http://www.worldaudit.org/home.htm
>--

(25K of included junk elided)

Amazing. You give the URL of a site with almost no list significance, 
which is fine, because a URL only takes a few bytes.

But then the rest of your message consumes 25K of included junk and 
cruft and HTML garbage.

You are a disgrace to our movement.

Begone.


--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 10 20:12:45 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:12:45 -0500
Subject: CDR: WorldAudit.org home page
Message-ID: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>

http://www.worldaudit.org/home.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/html
Size: 24056 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From petro at bounty.org  Sun Sep 10 23:39:47 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 23:39:47 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
 
Message-ID: 

>At 10:12 PM -0500 9/10/00, Jim Choate wrote:
>>http://www.worldaudit.org/home.htm
>>--
>
>(25K of included junk elided)
>
>Amazing. You give the URL of a site with almost no list 
>significance, which is fine, because a URL only takes a few bytes.
>
>But then the rest of your message consumes 25K of included junk and 
>cruft and HTML garbage.

	I think he just includes the HTML and Eudora fetches the 
images from the site.

	Not that this really changes much, except that he doesn't 
directly include the images.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From bfhsq at hotbot.com  Sun Sep 10 21:27:52 2000
From: bfhsq at hotbot.com (bfhsq at hotbot.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 00:27:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Affordable Offshore Income!                                    [pdxzz]
Message-ID: <200009110425.AAA02078@mail2fddi.east.frontiercorp.com>

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Have a Great Day!
Nick





From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Sun Sep 10 22:42:25 2000
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 01:42:25 -0400
Subject: CDR: Big Comrade is Watching
Message-ID: <9bcdf85febe224a3f82b0dd37a9b99e7@mixmaster.shinn.net>

Russian law lets agency monitor e-mails, Net traffic and cell-phone conversations without users' consent

BY MARGARET COKER
Cox News Service 

MOSCOW -- For Russian computer users, the message ``You've Got Mail!'' might now well read, ``You've Got Company.''

Under a far-reaching new law going into effect this month, Russia's intelligence agency, the Federal Security Service, or FSB, is allowed to snoop on all Internet traffic and eavesdrop on cellular telephone and pager communications -- all without the user's consent or knowledge.

Russia's flourishing Internet service providers, or ISPs, say the government's demand that they install the eavesdropping equipment and train intelligence officers to use it will put the fledgling companies out of business.

Meanwhile, civil rights groups say the surveillance measures, known by their Russian acronym SORM, are yet another sign of a return to Soviet-style political repression under current President Vladimir Putin.

``This is the end to all e-mail privacy,'' said Anatoly Levanchuk, an Internet and free-speech advocate. ``Wiretapping is now only a click away.''

The Draconian regulations were first issued by government decree in 1995. At this time, they only covered wiretapping telephone calls. SORM was updated in 1998 to include Internet technologies -- the venue where, Russian officials believe, most crime in the 21st century will be committed. The Justice Ministry approved the measures on July 25, effectively making them law.

The amended directives require all Russian ISPs to equip their networks with an FSB monitor and connect them with a high-speed fiber-optic link to FSB headquarters. The link permits the agency to keep an eye on electronic transmissions -- from private e-mails to e-commerce purchases -- in real-time and in total privacy. Failure to put in the bugging devices, which the Internet firms say cost between $15,000 and $25,000, will mean the loss of the service provider's operating license.

Alexei Rokotyan, a top official in Russia's Communications Ministry, admits that the regulations -- the Orwellian-termed ``System of Operational and Investigative Measures'' -- give the government access to all information transmitted via Russian ISPs.

``Security organs and special forces have the right, and now the capability, to monitor private correspondence and telephone conversations of individual citizens in the name of establishing legal order,'' Rokotyan told Russian television in July. He insisted, though, that SORM would be used only for ``monitoring individual cases according to the law.''

Internet surveillance has come under fire in many countries, including the United States. In 1994, U.S. lawmakers authorized the FBI to wiretap and eavesdrop on criminals conducting or discussing crimes over the Internet. The measure was vehemently opposed, with only limited success, in 1998 by civil liberties groups and telecom businesses who viewed it as a threat to both profits and personal freedom.

Human rights advocates in Russia say these same issues that aroused opposition in the United States are magnified here because there are virtually no checks-and-balances to prevent the FSB from using their expansive powers to cross from law enforcement into political blackmail and commercial espionage.

``No one is saying that the FSB should not have access in the course of a criminal investigation. There is a law that says Internet (service) providers must render assistance in a criminal case. But free access to the Internet gives the FSB great power that would be easy to abuse,'' said Ina Zemskova, a lawyer with the St. Petersburg-based Citizens' Watch, a human-rights group. ``In our country, no one monitors the eavesdroppers.''

Legal experts say the SORM regulations are fraught with loopholes that allow the FSB to sidestep the required warrant before conducting any electronic surveillance. That leaves telecommunications firms in the dark.

``We do not know exactly what the FSB does in our network. We cannot see what they are doing, when they are tapping in. We can only trust that they are not working against our clients' interests,'' said Mikhail Yakushev, the head of the legal department at GlobalOne, a multinational telecommunications company.

About 7 million people, or 4.8 percent of Russia's 145 million population, are connected to the Internet. That number is expected to rise to 8 percent of the population in the next three years, according to Avi Krel, the telecom analyst at UFG investment bank in Moscow.

Although minuscule compared to the United States, this activity has generated 2,000 Internet start-ups in the last two years. More than 300 businesses are licensed to provide Internet service here, and some 20,000 Russian Web sites offer search engines, chatrooms and e-commerce outlets. Economists estimate Russia's dot-com economy's annual turnover at $100 million.

So far, the Internet has offered Russians much more than monetary gain. The information superhighway has spurred the growth of environmental organizations, academics and a rising number of government critics by connecting them across Russia's 11 time zones that extend from the Pacific Ocean to the Polish border.

In many cases, the most outspoken opponents of government policy are chatroom monitors or network operators themselves. They were among the first to sound the alarm about SORM, leaving the traditional media in their wake as they posted up-to-the-minute news about the progress of the proposed regulations.

Oleg Syrov, the director of an ISP based in the northern Russian town of Volgograd, has become one of SORM's most vocal critics. After denying the FSB access to his Bayara-Slavia Communications network in 1998, Syrov said he received anonymous death threats. He said he has also fought off multiple attempts by the FSB to shut down his business.

An FSB spokesman contacted about the allegations raised refused to comment for this story,

But around the rest of the marketplace, opposition to the regulations among ISPs has weakened as the government's determination to institute the surveillance measures have strengthened.

While the Communications Ministry said the vast majority of Internet providers are complying with SORM, all but one of the six Moscow-based ISPs contacted for this story refused to say whether they had installed the eavesdropping equipment. The exception -- GlobalOne -- said all of its hardware and software contained the equipment necessary for the FSB to dial in.

``The resistance movement is as good as dead,'' said a grim Alexander Levanchuk, the founder of www.libertarium.ru, a Russian political Web site, and one of the people spearheading a legal challenge to SORM. ``The FSB can outmuscle us, and it usually wins these things.'' 







From fghfgn at bigfoot.com  Mon Sep 11 00:31:43 2000
From: fghfgn at bigfoot.com (fghfgn at bigfoot.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 02:31:43 -0500
Subject: CDR: Is your website too slow...READ NOW !!!!
Message-ID: 

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From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Sep 11 05:17:50 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:17:50 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <39BCC2EA.4ACAC3F0@ricardo.de>

David Honig wrote:
> >on the ideological level, no.
> >on the practical level - a lot. for example, you don't go to jail for
> >not paying GEMA.
> 
> Then why do people pay?

because you can't "opt out" - blank tapes just cost $x - GEMA included.
you can't buy any without.

shop owners and others pay because they have much better things to do
then spend their money on a lawsuit with no chance of winning.


> Ultimately law is backed by violence.

and customs. (not the border kind)
most people are simply used to following the law.





From craig at red-bean.com  Mon Sep 11 10:50:15 2000
From: craig at red-bean.com (Craig Brozefsky)
Date: 11 Sep 2000 10:50:15 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: "R. A. Hettinga"'s message of "Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:06:09 -0400"
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
	
	
Message-ID: <874s3mhl7s.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>

"R. A. Hettinga"  writes:

> > You are a disgrace to our movement.
> 
> "Movement?"

Perhaps he has a ethernet tap in the john and was peeved to have to
scroll thru 25k of junk while grunting one out, so it's a bowel
movement?

-- 
Craig Brozefsky               
"Revolution begins by giving things and social
 relationships their real names". --  L. Trotsky




From felix323 at 123india.com  Mon Sep 11 10:00:02 2000
From: felix323 at 123india.com (felix323 at 123india.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:00:02 -0600
Subject: CDR: 309,000 100% SAFE Recipients
Message-ID: <200009111700.LAA12978@ www. lanka.com>


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     heading, your name will be removed  within 24 hrs from the list.




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep 11 09:06:09 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:06:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
 
Message-ID: 


> You are a disgrace to our movement.

"Movement?"

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From 2ezy at wealth.com  Mon Sep 11 09:11:14 2000
From: 2ezy at wealth.com (2ezy at wealth.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:11:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: Discover The Secrets Of Weekend Wealth
Message-ID: <199912112040.MAA94626@adr6.addr.com>

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From frissell at panix.com  Mon Sep 11 10:08:07 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:08:07 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20000908140853.0081fc10@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000911130446.03af3560@popserver.panix.com>

At 05:16 PM 9/8/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

>The 'law' stems from the individual right to self-defence. Law is backed
>by violence because that is what is is about.

We wouldn't have a problem is it stopped at our individual right of self 
defense.  Unfortunately, taxes, murder, regulation, and kidnapping are not 
rights of self defense that I possess so I can't delegate them to the 
state.  The state does all those things and therefore cannot be justified 
under a theory of delegated rights to self defense.

DCF
----
You can horsewhip your Gascony Archers.  You can torture your Picardy 
Spears. But don't try that with the Saxons or you'll have the whole brood 
round your ears.  From the highest Thane in the county to the lowest 
chained serf in the field.  They'll be at you and on you like hornets.  And 
if you are wise you will yield.  -- Advice of a Norman Baron to his Son -- 
Kipling




From ros at personal.ro  Mon Sep 11 10:10:17 2000
From: ros at personal.ro (ros at personal.ro)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:10:17 -0400
Subject: CDR: Incredible Money Magnet-All Cash Business!                         8800
Message-ID: <0000094067ce$0000162d$00002260@ns.spice.or.jp>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
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URL: 

From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Sep 11 13:16:56 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:16:56 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Check this out: http://www.antivore.com
References: <39B9908E.468B46D8@sunder.net> <01a201c019e9$eb0372c0$0100a8c0@matthew>
Message-ID: <39BD3DB8.C8292201@sunder.net>

>From the quick scan of their pages, what I'd gathered was that you'd
run your own antivore server, or "you" as in your company would run
one of these before you reach the ISP layer.

Me wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sunder" 
> > http://www.antivore.com
> 
> Easy-as-pie carnivore defeating email encryption?
> 
> "
> How does Antivore work?
> 
> Antivore is a special application which sits between the user and
> their mail server. 

This says the meat of it.  So you don't send cleartext to your ISP, you send clear text to the antivore box in your company/home
office, which in turns encrypts your email for you, and sends it out via your ISP.

For the Feds to gain access to your emails, they'd have to install the carnivore box between you and the antivore box.

So basically the concept is the same as running your own proxy web server to filter out banner ads, but instead you use it for email
and it encrypts emails.

Yes, the faq says something really stupid - which is to ask your ISP to run antivore for you. Presumably this is because most users
are morons, and in this case, it won't help at all but to instill a false sense of security.

The way I see this: As always, this is a crutch for the lazy who don't want to put up with the cut/paste/enter passphrase hasles of
using PGP for non-integrated clients.

It's being pushed in the wrong direction for sure.

> The application is server-based which means
> that as an individual you need to contact your IT department or
> your ISP to request the encryption services that Antivore can
> offer.
> "
> 
> So I send my cleartext email to my ISP... who has been served
> with a search warrant and a small black box... and they will
> encrypt it, and then forward the cyphertext through their mail
> server and THEN through the carnivore box?
> 
> I hope the FBI special agent assigned to my ISP was hired under
> some sort of affirmative action programme.


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep 11 11:10:33 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:10:33 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: <874s3mhl7s.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
 
  <874s3mhl7s.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:50 AM -0700 on 9/11/00, Craig Brozefsky wrote:


> it's a bowel
> movement?


> "Revolution begins by giving things and social
>  relationships their real names". --  L. Trotsky


Oh. *That* kind of movement...

;-).

Cheers,
RAH


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From gdunk at gotoworld.com  Mon Sep 11 16:09:50 2000
From: gdunk at gotoworld.com (Gilbert Dunk)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:09:50 -0700
Subject: CDR: Three Dogs
Message-ID: <110900255.58179@webbox.com>




>Three Dogs

>Three people, 2 men and 1 woman, and their dogs are in the Vets
waiting
>room. The first man's dog asked the second man's dog what he's
there for.
>They are putting me down. Oh no, says the first dog, why? The
second dog
>says,"Well, you see... I've been chasing the Postman for years.
Yesterday,
>I finally caught him, and bit him. So, I'm going to be put to
sleep. The
>second dog says, "Well, my master just completely remodeled
the inside of
>his house. I didn't like it because my scent wasn't anywhere,
anymore. So,
>when he went to bed last night, I pissed on everything I could
find, to
>get my scent back. This morning, my master found out what I
had done, so
>he is putting me to sleep also.
>
>The third dog said,"This is my masters new girlfriend. She runs
around the
>house all the time without her clothes. This makes me very horny.
So, this
>morning, as she was getting out of the shower, and bent over
to wipe up
>the water on the floor. I couldn't stand it anymore, so I jumped
on her a
>gave it to her good!" The other dogs say, " so' that's why they
are
>putting you to sleep?" No says the dog, "She is bringing me
here to get my
>toenails clipped!"

Get Paid Every Time You and Your Referrals Use the Internet!
Just go to:
http://www.gotoworld.com/getpaid/default.asp?rid=456123
A free service provided by WebBox - http://webbox.com





From levitte at openssl.org  Mon Sep 11 07:43:50 2000
From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:43:50 +0200
Subject: ANNOUNCE: OpenSSL 0.9.6 Beta 1
Message-ID: <20000911164349.A6933@openssl.org>


  OpenSSL version 0.9.6 Beta 1
  ============================

  OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS
  http://www.openssl.org/

  OpenSSL is currently in a release cycle.  The first beta is now released.
  This beta is in fact two releases, one for the current mainstream
  OpenSSL, and one with an "engine" branch incorporated.  The "engine"
  branch contains an interface to external crypto libraries, which is
  currently used to support the hardware devices CryptoSwift (by CryptoSwift
  Inc), Atalla (by Compaq) and CHIL (previously called HWCryptoHook, by
  nCipher) as well as the internal OpenSSL routines.

  The two beta releases are available for download via HTTP and FTP from the
  following master locations (the various FTP mirrors you can find under
  http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html):

    o http://www.openssl.org/source/
    o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/

  The file names of the two betas are:

    o openssl-0.9.6-beta1.tar.gz
    o openssl-engine-0.9.6-beta1.tar.gz

  Please download and test it as soon as possible.  This new OpenSSL version
  incorporates 75 changes and bugfixes to the toolkit (for a complete list
  see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES).

  Yours,
  The OpenSSL Project Team...  

    Mark J. Cox             Richard Levitte    Andy Polyakov
    Ralf S. Engelschall     Bodo Möller        Holger Reif
    Dr. Stephen Henson      Ulf Möller         Geoff Thorpe
    Ben Laurie              

--
Richard Levitte         levitte at openssl.org
OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/
Software Engineer, Celo Communications: http://www.celocom.com/




From syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil  Mon Sep 11 14:08:37 2000
From: syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil (Paul Syverson)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:08:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FC'01 Final Call for Papers
Message-ID: 

                           Final Call for Papers

                         Financial Cryptography '01

                             February 19-22, 2000
                      Grand Cayman Marriott Beach Resort
                             Cayman Islands, BWI


Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data security and
digital commerce in general for submission to the Fifth Annual Conference on
Financial Cryptography (FC01). FC01 aims to bring together persons involved
in the financial, legal and data security fields to foster cooperation and
exchange of ideas. Relevant topics include

Anonymity Protection                   Infrastructure Design
Auditability                           Legal/ Regulatory Issues
Authentication/Identification          Loyalty Mechanisms
Certification/Authorization            Payments/ Micropayments
Commercial Transactions                Privacy Issues
Copyright/ I.P. Management             Risk Management
Digital Cash/ Digital Receipts         Secure Banking Systems
Economic Implications                  Smart Cards
Electronic Purses                      Trust Management
Implementations                        WaterMarking


INSTRUCTIONS FOR AUTHORS: Electronic submission strongly encouraged.
(Instructions available at http://www.fc01.uwm.edu).  Alternatively,
send a cover letter and 15 copies of an extended abstract to be
received no later than October 13, 2000 (or postmarked by October 6,
2000 and sent via airmail) to the Program Chair. The extended abstract
should start with the title, names of authors, abstract, and keywords
followed by a succinct statement appropriate for a non-specialist
reader specifying the subject addressed, background, main
achievements, and significance to financial data security. Submissions
are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of 11pt type and should
constitute substantially original material. Panel proposals are due no
later than November 27, 2000 (or postmarked and airmailed by November
20).  Panel proposals should include a brief description of the panel
and a list of prospective panelists.  Notification of acceptance or
rejection of papers and panel proposals will be sent to authors no
later than December 8, 2000.  Authors of accepted papers must
guarantee that their papers will be presented at the conference and must
be willing to sign an acceptable copyright agreement with Springer-Verlag.
Use the above address for electronic submissions or send hardcopy to:

Paul Syverson, FC01 Program Chair
Center for High Assurance Computer Systems  (Code 5540)
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington DC 20375  USA
email: syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil
Web: www.syverson.org
phone: +1 202 404-7931

PROCEEDINGS: Final proceedings will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.

Program Committee

Matt Blaze, AT&T Labs - Research
Yair Frankel, Ecash
Matt Franklin, UC Davis
David Kravitz, Wave Systems Corp.
Arjen Lenstra, Citicorp
Philip MacKenzie, Lucent Bell Labs
Avi Rubin, AT&T Labs - Research
Jacques Stern, Ecole Normale Sup�rieure
Kazue Sako, NEC
Stuart Stubblebine, CertCo
Paul Syverson (Chair), Naval Research Laboratory
Win Treese, Open Market, Inc.
Doug Tygar, UC Berkeley
Michael Waidner, IBM Zurich Research Lab
Moti Yung, CertCo

Important Dates

Extended Abstract Submissions Due: Oct. 13, 2000
Panel Proposal Submissions Due: November 27, 2000
Notification: Dec 8, 2000

Electronic submission information:
See http://www.fc01.uwm.edu

General Chair
Stuart Haber, InterTrust STAR Lab

Electronic Submission chair
George Davida, UWM

Further Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Grand Cayman itself will follow in a separate general announcement. FC01 is
organized by the International Financial Cryptography Association.
Additional information will be found at http://fc01.ai

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From apoio at giganetstore.com  Mon Sep 11 09:48:38 2000
From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:48:38 +0100
Subject: CDR: O mundo da Disney
Message-ID: <05f573848160b90WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore>

 



  
Bem vindos ao fantástico mundo da Disney
Entre neste mundo mágico com a giganetstore.com
 
 
Mickey Médio  
Minnie Média  
Pateta Médio 
 
Mulan-DVD  
Dumbo-DVD  
A Espada era a Lei-DVD 
 
Disney´s Magical Tetris
 
Album Disney  
Album Pooh 
Nesta viagem de sonho passe pela ilha do conhecimento e visite a nossa
campanha do Regresso às Aulas!
 
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
<   http://www.giganetstore.com
  >  , ir à
edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das
nossas promoções e novos serviços. 


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From PAULandBARB76 at webtv.net  Mon Sep 11 15:22:09 2000
From: PAULandBARB76 at webtv.net (Paul and Barbara Paulsen)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:22:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Van Star Films Inc.
Message-ID: <21319-39BD5B11-7859@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net>


   Please send free newsletter to:
   Paul E. Paulsen
   76 Van Buren Rd. Apt. #3
   Glenville, NY 12302

Have a good day                 
                            
                               




From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Mon Sep 11 19:38:17 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009120238.TAA28422@e2.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: flaming_perimeter

Your email address: 
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We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
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Just go to any of Yahoo!'s Personalized Properties 
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Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
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**********************************************************

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If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SmVmeHJidE9gMzFmdE8hdUpOMU8wNTE1TjAhc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
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From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep 11 19:44:30 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:44:30 -0700
Subject: CDR: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
Message-ID: 


For all those speaking favorably of the twentieth century trends 
toward voluntary mandatory (VM) taxes, a la the VM taxes on PCs to 
support recording moguls, the VM taxes on paper to support writers, 
the VM taxes on hamburgers to fund heart disease research, consider 
where ever-increasing taxes take us:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/13169.html

"Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this 
afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that 
OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at 
slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"

This is from the U.K., where tax policy is ahead of that of the U.S. 
Whilst we are (almost) ready to mcveigh the tax collectors and wipe 
out millions of burrowcrats, the Brits are quite sheeplike in 
accepting taxes which are several times the price of the underlying 
commodity. Germany, France, Sweden, Italy, and essentially all other 
European nations are similarly sheep-like in their acceptance of such 
taxes. This is where the "voluntary mandatory" taxation trend leads 
us. Taxes become an instrument of social policy as well as a way to 
line the pockets of the burrowcrats who go into government service.

Frankly, tens of millions need to be liquidated.

Thank Baal for unbreakable crypto.


--Tim May



-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Mon Sep 11 16:57:09 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:57:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: infosec papers from .mil
Message-ID: <73bbfa6e7d35cc6c58cde8393b237791@melontraffickers.com>

"Deliver!" (Word/PDF): A pamphlet on How to Transmit and Transport Your Classified
Materials 

The Laymans Guide to Security (Word/PDF) 

Security Related Acronyms and Abbreviations and Basic Security Forms (Word/PDF) 

STU III Handbook for Industry (Word/PDF) 

"Survival Handbook": The Basic Security Procedures Necessary for Keeping You Out of
Trouble (Word/PDF). 

"Take a Security Break" (Word/PDF) 

"Take Another Security Break" (Word/PDF) 

"Take a Third Security Break" (Word/PDF) 

"Terminator VIII": How to Destroy Your Classified Materials (Word/PDF) 

http://www.dss.mil/training/pub.htm





From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Mon Sep 11 21:09:12 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:09:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009120409.VAA28673@e5.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: flaming_perimeter

Your email address: 
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We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
forget your Yahoo! ID or password.  
To learn how to change this address, read below.

**********************************************************

WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT?

You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of 
Yahoo's free, personalized services.   

My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
Yahoo Calendar - http://calendar.yahoo.com
Yahoo Chat - http://chat.yahoo.com
Yahoo Classifieds - http://classifieds.yahoo.com
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Yahoo Finance - http://quote.yahoo.com
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You can return to Yahoo! Chat by going to
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Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
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address and other personal information and preferences.

**********************************************************

THANK YOU FOR SIGNING UP WITH YAHOO!

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If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SjJ2dnQ1dGAwYnJgfXQhdUpOMU8wNDYwMjUhc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
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From postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM  Mon Sep 11 22:00:48 2000
From: postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:00:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
In-Reply-To: <20000905180009.22147.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: 

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On 5 Sep 2000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:

>Ray Dillinger writes:
>> In the interest of making  some news if you don't like the news 
>> you're getting, I present -- the Country Mile Cipher.  Algorithm 
>> details available (for now) on 
>>
>>         http://www.sonic.net/~bear/crypto/countrymile.html

>Your idea is to take BBS as a stream cipher, use a value based on a
>secret short key as a starting point, and then cycle it potentially a
>whole lot, millions or billions of cycles or more, before beginning to
>cipher the message with it.
<...>
>You've combined the idea of time lock crypto with an encryption function.

Bingo.

>It's not clear these two ideas go all that well together,
<,,,>
>Usually you
>either want to encrypt, in which case you want to make it easy to decrypt
>for the guy who knows the key, or you want to time-lock, in which case
>you want to control how hard it will be to find the key.  There don't
>seem to be that many cases where you want to allow decryption but only
>if you both know the key and are willing to put in a lot of time.

True. Not many.  But, I think, some.  It's a matter of using the 
right tool for the right job.  The world doesn't need yet another 
cipher, because the ciphers we have are adequately secure and 
efficient.  It doesn't need another timelock, because Rivest's 
does that job quite nicely.  But I think Country Mile fills a 
niche that I don't think I've seen anything else fill -- a keyed 
timelock.  

>Even if you did want to do that, you could just use Rivest's time lock
>to hide a key which then gets combined with your short key to produce
>the actual key to the message.

Yes, and no.  One application for Country Mile is for situations 
where you are restricted to a short key and want to get adequate 
security.  By putting a two-second delay into the decryption 
function, which is almost nonexistent in human time to someone 
who has the key, you can make a brute-force attack on the key take 
thousands of times longer -- enough to make a 56-bit key, if not 
secure, then at least adequate for a few weeks of security.

If you just used Country Mile to encrypt the key of another cipher 
system, then the effective brute force attack against that system  
could proceed without the country mile timelock slowing it down at 
all. 'Cause the system will always be attacked at its weakest link.

It's true that this is an artificial and arbitrary restriction, 
caused mainly by legal boogerheads.  But it's nice to have a tool 
in your box that can give you reasonable security anyway. 

>Along these lines your own idea could be simplified; don't encipher the
>whole message using BBS, just encipher a block-cipher key and use 3DES
>or similar to encipher the message.

Right.  That's the way RSA is usually used.  The fact doesn't 
affect the description of RSA, nor of Country Mile. Whether 
someone uses it that way is mainly a matter of what he or she 
wants to accomplish. But before deciding whether to use it that 
way, I hope he or she understands my comments about short keys 
and brute force attacks above.

>They have a similar idea but came up with an application for it in fair
>contract signing (where one party should not end up with the signature on
>a contract unless the other party does too).  For their application they
>need to be able to encrypt a message such that it can only be decrypted
>with a specified large amount of work.  However they must be able to
>reveal the encrypted message and prove that the decryption was accurate,
>using a small amount of work.  This could be done in your scheme simply
>by revealing the modulus factors (the "long key") but they want to reuse
>the modulus so they use some fancy zero knowledge proofs.

Right.  Someone from sci.crypt has pointed out that the BBS modulus, 
which gets tranmitted with the ciphertext in Country Mile, constitutes 
a handy, and potentially large, subliminal channel.  Which is another 
interesting feature, but not a viable attack on the cipher.  Revealing 
the modulus factors in Country Mile would only de-timelock the one 
message encrypted under that modulus -- a fact which might turn out 
to be an important and desirable property in some protocols.  Since 
new factors are chosen with each encryption, it doesn't suffer from 
the usual problem with stream ciphers, where you can't use the same 
key more than once. In fact you can go on using the same short key, 
with a different modulus, even after you "de-timelock" a message by 
revealing the modulus factors.  

Thanks for looking at it! 

				Ray







From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Mon Sep 11 22:26:40 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:26:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009120526.WAA44606@e13.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
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**********************************************************

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My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
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Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
under the options).  The Account Information page will 
let you update your email address, password, home and work 
address and other personal information and preferences.

**********************************************************

THANK YOU FOR SIGNING UP WITH YAHOO!

If you have additional questions regarding other Yahoo! 
Services, we suggest Yahoo! Help Central at: 
http://help.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to
use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the 
following address:
http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV%2bemJzYnU4jiF5SjZjfXowMjV6NXNPf3EhdUpOMU8wNDE0Tk4hc0pkf2Zz

If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SjZjfXowMjV6NXNPf3EhdUpOMU8wNDE0Tk4hc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your 
reply) with REMOVE as the subject line.

[216.116.34.114]


-------------- next part --------------
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From postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM  Mon Sep 11 08:16:01 2000
From: postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:16:01 +0800
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re:   REPLY REQUIRED: Subscription to TheBlackList News Information -eMail offered
References: <0.0.244528018-951758591-968616961@topica.com>
Message-ID: <000001c01c6b$03329960$de0aa8c0@p400>

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------












----- Original Message -----
From: TheBlackList -eMail News, Kwasi Akyeampong

To: 
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 4:16 AM
Subject: REPLY REQUIRED: Subscription to TheBlackList News
Information -eMail offered


>
> Hello,
>
> TheBlackList -eMail News, Kwasi Akyeampong, the owners of the email list
'TheBlackList News Information -eMail',
> are inviting you to join this list at Topica.
>
> Here's the description of the list:
>
> TheBlackList is a moderated email list that informs the
> African Nationalist and the Afro-Centric
> about issues relevant to our cause.
> No Cause is local.   If it concerns you, it concerns us, ALL Africans -
those at home and those abroad.
>
>
> TO SUBSCRIBE TO THIS LIST:
>
> Simply click reply in your email program, and then send - we'll
> automatically add you to the list.
>
> If this list does not interest you (or you do not want to join
> the list at this time), just ignore this message and you will
> not be added.
>
> If you have any questions about the list, you can contact the
> list owners at any of these addresses: TBLeNews at earthlink.net,
mgbbs at juno.com.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Natasha
> Topica Customer Support
>
>




From postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM  Mon Sep 11 23:30:55 2000
From: postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:30:55 -0700
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
In-Reply-To: <87k8cigqwr.fsf@challah.msrl.com>
References: 
	<87k8cigqwr.fsf@challah.msrl.com>
Message-ID: 

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

At 4:44 AM +0000 9/12/00, Michael Shields wrote:
>In article ,
>Tim May  wrote:
>>  http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/13169.html
>>
>>  "Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this
>>  afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that
>>  OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at
>>  slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"
>
>$30 (now $35) is the price of a barrel of *light sweet crude*, not the
>price of a barrel of refined gasoline.
>--
>Shields.


The quote said nothing to the contrary. Crude results in some 
fraction of gasoline/petrol, and taxes are applied. His point was 
that the taxes are about 4-5 times the cost of the underlying petrol, 
which is about what it is in the U.K. (Last I heard, gas in the U.K. 
is about the equivalent of about $4-5 a gallon for unleaded regular.)

--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From ken at IKDQ.alldog.net  Tue Sep 12 00:01:29 2000
From: ken at IKDQ.alldog.net (ken at IKDQ.alldog.net)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:01:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: THIS IS IT! -IRHC
Message-ID: <200009120701.AAA26785@cyberpass.net>

Dear cypherpunks, You've got to read this!

"AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV"

YOU can earn $50,000 or more from your computer AT HOME, in next the 180 days 
sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details. This is for real!

Thank you for your time and interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the 
news lately. Due to 
the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted 
an entire show 
to the investigation of the program described below to see if it really can make people 
money.

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved 
once and for all 
that there are absolutely no laws prohibiting participation in this program. This media 
coverage has helped 
to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money 
at home.

The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating in 
this program, that 
those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more 
money as more 
people try it out, it's been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once 
you experience it.

HERE IT IS BELOW:

*** Save and Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can 
be started with 
VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 180 days!
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require 
you to come into 
contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house 
except to get 
the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, 
THIS IS IT! Simply 
follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order-
marketing program 
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.

E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method 
of advertising 
NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail.
Get your piece of this action!!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in 
the Harvard 
Business School, and both the Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have 
stated that between 
50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the 
mid to late 1990's. 
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the United States, 
20% (100,000) 
made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that 45 
people become 
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. Why shouldn't you be one of those 
people??

You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump made an 
appearance on the 
David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to 
start over from 
scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing 
company and get to work. 
The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and 
deadpanned his response: 
"That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!"

"The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, 
sometime later I re-
read everything and gave it some thought and took the time to study it. I didn't send for it, 
or ask for it, they 
just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it 
several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here 
was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest 
as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and 
paper and 
figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little 
skeptical and a little 
worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-
800-725-2161...24-
hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL 
and NOT A 
CHAIN LETTER, I decided 'WHY NOT'?

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my first list of addresses. The 
great thing about e-mail is 
that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my 
orders are fulfilled 
via e-mail, my only expense is my time. I am telling you like it is, and I hope it doesn't 
turn you off, but I 
promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it made 
me.




In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I 
had received 26 
orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT 
#1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF 
YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making 
$50,000 in 90 days 
was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to 
"RECEIVE AT LEAST 
100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. 
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE 
YOUR $50,000 GOAL.

Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and 
relaxed. By March 1, of my 
e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car.

Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE 
FOREVER!!

Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it 
EXACTLY! 
Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work and 
you'll lose out on 
a lot of money!

In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, 
and 100+ orders 
for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 180 days. I AM LIVING PROOF 
THAT IT WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity 
with little cost or 
risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way 
to financial 
security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you 
want to start 
your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:
By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded 
that an amateur 
could, not have created such a program, and one that is legal.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 
1979 my business 
began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but 
it wasn't 
working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me it was the economy. Inflation and recession 
had replaced the 
stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened 
to the 
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience. There were 
more failures 
and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely 
and moved up. 
Those who did not, including those of  us who never had anything to save or invest, were 
moving down into the 
ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET 
POORER." The 
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", 
inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your 
life, with "NO 
RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next 
few months than you 
have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor 
anyone else who 
has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION 
DOLLARS! I have retired 
from the program after sending thousands and thousands of programs.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way, it works 
exceedingly well as 
it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. 
One of the people 
you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!

Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity for you to 
become 
financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! THINK ABOUT IT.

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to 
read it and REALLY 
THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. 
Figure out the 
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of 
money! You will 
definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first 
orders come in. IT 
WORKS!

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF 
DOLLARS:

INSTRUCTIONS:

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you 
could use up to 
$50,000 or more in the next 180 days. Before you say, "bull****", Please read this 
program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity Basically, this 
is what you do: As 
with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and 
selling our products. 
Every state in the USA, and every province in Canada allows you to recruit new multi-
level business 
partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY 
MAIL AND ARE FILLED 
BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own 
home, store or 
office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them).

-- For each report, send $5.00 CASH (USD), the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT 
YOU ARE ORDERING, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a 
problem) to the person 
whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN 
ADDRESS IS ON YOUR 
ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS!

-- When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports You will need 
all four reports 
so that you can save them on your computer and resell them.

 -- Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them
on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who 
will order them 
from you.

2.  IMPORTANT!! DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each 
report,
or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps a-f or you 
will lose out on 
the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how 
it doesn't work 
if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not 
work.

a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.
b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this advertisement and remove the name 
and address under 
REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 
$50,000!
 c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.
 d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.
 e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.
 f.   Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

Please make sure you COPY ALL INFORMATION, every name and address, 
ACCURATELY!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your 
computer. Make NO 
changes to the instruction portion of this letter.

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You 
obviously already 
have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!  Plus, there are many companies on the 
Internet that
	have lists of available e-mail addresses for sale for about $15 per 10,000.  
Addresses of people that want 
to learn of new money making and business opportunities like this one.

There are two primary methods of building your down line:

METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you 
and all those 
involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives 
a 0.5% response. 
Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out 
hundreds of 
thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out 
only 2,000 
programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 
people respond by 
sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of that 0.5%, 100 people 
respond and order 
REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% 
response to that is 
1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 
total. The 0.5% 
response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 $5 bills for you. CASH!!! 
Your total income 
in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER 
FRIEND, THIS IS 
ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY 
NOTHING AND 
TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN 
IF EVERYONE, OR 
HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people 
will do just that, and 
more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously 
already have an 
Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for 
bulk e-mailing; tell 
you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists.

METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

Advertising on the Internet is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE 
places to 
advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your 
goal is to get 
ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the 
Internet will EASILY get 
a larger response). Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets 
ONLY 10 downline 
members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below:

1st level--your 10 members with $5.............................$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)...........$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)........$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000).....$50,000
THIS TOTALS ------------------------------------------------------------$55,550


Remember friend, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people 
each. Think for a 
moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of 
participants! 
THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report 
they ordered. 
THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will 
guarantee that the e-mail 
THEY send out with YOUR name and address on it will be prompt because they can't 
advertise until they 
receive the report!

AVAILABLE REPORTS

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***

Notes:

-- ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT. CHECKS NOT 
ACCEPTED.

-- ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL.

-- Make sure the $5 cash is concealed, by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On 
one of 
those sheets of paper, include:
(a)  The number & name of the report you are ordering 
(b)  Your e-mail address, and 
(c)  Your name & postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:

REPORT #1 - "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
	Ken Schulz
	216 Lafayette Road
	Medina, Oh. 44256

REPORT #2 - "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
Dave Robinson
43000 West Nine Mile Road
Novi, MI 48375


REPORT #3 - "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Sam Laan
Box 25362, 395 Wellington Rd. South
London ON Canada N6C 6B1


REPORT #4 - "How to become a Millionaire Utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing 
and the 
 Internet"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
 Gary Scott
 P.O Box 181
 Chanute, KS 66720


About 50,000 new people get online every month!

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******

1. TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions 
accurately.

2.  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start 
coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested 
product/report.

3.  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

4.  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your 
 results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!

5.  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or 
sending e-mails 
until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for 
REPORT#2. If you 
don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or 
more orders for 
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue 
to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, 
you are placed in 
front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching 
which reports people 
are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-
mails or continue 
placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will 
generate from this 
business!

Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program, 
please answer one 
question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at 
the following facts 
about this program:

1.  You are selling a product, which does not cost anything to PRODUCE, SHIP OR 
ADVERTISE.

2.   All of your customers pay you in CASH!

3.   E-mail is without question the most powerful method of distributing information on 
Earth. This program 
combines the distribution power of e-mail, together with the revenue generating power of 
multi-level 
marketing.

4.  Virtually all of the income you generate from this program is PURE PROFIT!

5.  This program will change your LIFE FOREVER.

ACT NOW! Take your first step toward achieving financial independence. Order the 
reports and follow the 
program outlined above SUCCESS will be your reward.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, 
learning how 
income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business 
Administration (a Federal 
Agency) 1-800-827-5722 for free help and answers to your questions. Also, the Internal 
Revenue Service 
offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your 
earnings are 
highly dependant on your activities and advertising. The information contained on this site 
and in the report 
constitutes no guarantee, neither stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined 
that this site or 
report constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. The earnings 
amounts listed on this 
site and in the report are estimates only. If you have any questions of the legality of this 
program, contact 
the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, and 
Bureau of 
Consumer Protection in Washington, DC.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like to be removed from this mailing list, please reply with remove in the 
subject line to: 
ken at alldog.net  Thank you and Kind Regards.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             






From CMF at secretcash.com  Tue Sep 12 01:12:39 2000
From: CMF at secretcash.com (CMF at secretcash.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 04:12:39 -0400
Subject: CDR: Quick Cash Secret Banking System Available Now!
Message-ID: <200009120811.EAA30600@waste.minder.net>


OPPORTUNITY IS NEVER LOST--IT JUST GOES TO THOSE WHO ARE READY!
___________________________________________________________
�����������������������������������������������������������
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IN THE NEW MILLENNIUM BUNDLES OF CASH AND 
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FREE "$1,500/WEEK CASH"  INFORMATION!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Dear Friend!
How are you today? We hope you're doing great.

We are happy to announce that after two long years of 
research, revision and testing, our famous Quick Cash Secret 
Banking System is now being released again to the general public, 
to benefit anyone who is interested in generating a guaranteed $1,500+/week 
in FAST cash without any hard work or large investment!

It is the fastest and the easiest money making system today in 
the world, used by all multimillionaires to pile up 
cash, without any huffing and puffing!

============================================
It is 100% legal, easy, fast and fun! There 
is no scam or shady transaction! It is NOT
any kind of banking transaction you may have 
heard about or know! It's Approved by
all government agencies, including the US 
Treasury Dept., American and International 
Banking Associations, The Fed, World bank 
and US Post Office!
============================================

Have you ever wondered why a few people in the world seem 
to have a "magic wand" that brings them riches and all the 
good things in life, while the rest of the majority of
the people are hardly surviving? If yes, please stop 
wondering and let us show you why and how!

For the first time, all the powerful, jealously guarded 
SECRETS of the Rich and Powerful (that enable them to 
"wheel and deal" and pile up bundles of cash) are being
released to the public, for the benefit of anyone who
seriously desires financial security and true success!

In our detailed step by step cash kit, you'll 
discover one of the most powerful cash generating
secrets of the Rich and famous! How to open a "SPECIAL 
Bank Account", do 1-2hrs daily legal bank transaction 
and rake in $1,500+/week in solid cash! (100% legal and 
guaranteed, no scam involved!)

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
You can do it from ANY country, at anytime and 
whenever you like!
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////

One of our customers in Oregon recently made a whopping 
$4000 fast cash in one hour!

You'll also get  Four FREE bonus reports:

*The first will show you  how you can become our Associate 
Sales Agent, (ASA) and make another extra $2,500 marketing this 
famous Cash Program on the Internet! We'll set you up with 
your own website, merchant account to accept credit 
cards online, and an autoresponder, so that within 24hrs 
of From CMF at secretcash.com Tue Sep 12 04:12:26 EDT 2000
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Subject: Quick Cash Secret Banking System Available Now!
Subject: Quick Cash Secret Banking System Available Now!
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OPPORTUNITY IS NEVER LOST--IT JUST GOES TO THOSE WHO ARE READY!
___________________________________________________________
�����������������������������������������������������������
�����������������������������������������������������������
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

IN THE NEW MILLENNIUM BUNDLES OF CASH AND 
HAPPINESS CAN BE YOURS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FREE "$1,500/WEEK CASH"  INFORMATION!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Dear Friend!
How are you today? We hope you're doing great.

We are happy to announce that after two long years of 
research, revision and testing, our famous Quick Cash Secret 
Banking System is now being released again to the general public, 
to benefit anyone who is interested in generating a guaranteed $1,500+/week 
in FAST cash without any hard work or large investment!

It is the fastest and the easiest money making system today in 
the world, used by all multimillionaires to pile up 
cash, without any huffing and puffing!

============================================
It is 100% legal, easy, fast and fun! There 
is no scam or shady transaction! It is NOT
any kind of banking transaction you may have 
heard about or know! It's Approved by
all government agencies, including the US 
Treasury Dept., American and International 
Banking Associations, The Fed, World bank 
and US Post Office!
============================================

Have you ever wondered why a few people in the world seem 
to have a "magic wand" that brings them riches and all the 
good things in life, while the rest of the majority of
the people are hardly surviving? If yes, please stop 
wondering and let us show you why and how!

For the first time, all the powerful, jealously guarded 
SECRETS of the Rich and Powerful (that enable them to 
"wheel and deal" and pile up bundles of cash) are being
released to the public, for the benefit of anyone who
seriously desires financial security and true success!

In our detailed step by step cash kit, you'll 
discover one of the most powerful cash generating
secrets of the Rich and famous! How to open a "SPECIAL 
Bank Account", do 1-2hrs daily legal bank transaction 
and rake in $1,500+/week in solid cash! (100% legal and 
guaranteed, no scam involved!)

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
You can do it from ANY country, at anytime and 
whenever you like!
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////

One of our customers in Oregon recently made a whopping 
$4000 fast cash in one hour!

You'll also get  Four FREE bonus reports:

*The first willgetting this powerful money making  machine, you'll start
generating solid cash!

*The second bonus will reveal to you a list of all the 
insiders' sources to get  FREE MONEY (No Payback!). 
You are guaranteed to get at least $10,000 to $50,000
 free cash to spend as you please, within the next month!

*The third bonus will show how to wipe out all your debts, 
clean your credit history, get a new credit line worth
thousands of dollars (as good as cash!), so that you'll  
enter the new millennium, with the peace of mind and good 
health that you deserve! 

*The fourth will show how to raise "$100,000 in 24hrs," 
by applying a little known, BUT powerful multimillionaire
cash flow strategy! It takes about 12 steps and a month 
to implement this secret financial transaction, then you
can walk into your bank and legally ask your bank manager 
to advance $100,000 to you, and you'll get it within 24hrs, 
by law! (These information secrets are the jealously-guarded 
secret millionaires' financial strategies, not available in the 
library, universities, or from your financial advisor!)
We are so sure of the power of this secret cash making
system that we guarantee that you'll make money your 
first week! We'll prove it to you by helping you put at 
least $1000 in your pocket one week after you get this 
Millionaires' Secret Banking Package! You'll have one whole
year to try it, and  then if you don't succeed for
any reason, you'll get double your money back! This is 
a LEGAL, ironclad, airtight cash guarantee to show you 
that we are serious!

So, if you are sick and tired of wasting your time, money 
and life dibble-dabbling in harebrained moneymaking schemes
that are nothing but worthless puffery, thank your lucky 
stars and send for our eye-opening free details right now!

Test us! Allow us to stuff at least $1,500 in easy fast 
CASH in your pocket starting next week! Blast into the 
new millennium with a new lease on life, Financial 
Security, Success, Prosperity and Happiness!

Everything you know is based on what has already happened in your life. 
And yet, your only influence right now is over things that have not yet
happened. The things that have already happened have gotten you to 
where you are right now. What you need to be concerned with, however, 
is where to go from here.

Because you're so intimately familiar with your own past, it may seem 
you have no choice but to continue moving in the same direction as 
before. But that is not true. Your future doesn't equal your past. 
Right now, there are an infinite number of paths you can take. 
The one you're currently on is only one of them. Any of the rest is 
available to you.

If you're completely satisfied with where you're going, then, by all 
means keep on going that way. But there's no reason in the world you 
have to keep following that same path if it doesn't bring you full and 
lasting fulfillment.

Every moment you have a choice, regardless of what has happened before.
Choose right now to move forward, positively, and confidently into your
incredible future.

For FREE details, hurry and callf the number below!:

                              1-800-999-1754

 
Thank you and have a nice day!

Sincerely,
CMF Enterprises

 =================End================
*****************************************
This is a legitimate business announcement, being
sent in compliance with all rules & regulations
that govern internet commerce. We respect your 
privacy. Your name  is not in our mailing list so, 
you'll get this e-mail only once!  You must respond
quickly to take advantage of our "special offer! 
Thank you and have a nice day!
*****************************************************




 show you  how you can become our Associate 
Sales Agent, (ASA) and make another extra $2,500 marketing this 
famous Cash Program on the Internet! We'll set you up with 
your own website, merchant account to accept credit 
cards online, and an autoresponder, so that within 24hrs 
of getting this powerful money making  machine, you'll start
generating solid cash!

*The second bonus will reveal to you a list of all the 
insiders' sources to get  FREE MONEY (No Payback!). 
You are guaranteed to get at least $10,000 to $50,000
 free cash to spend as you please, within the next month!

*The third bonus will show how to wipe out all your debts, 
clean your credit history, get a new credit line worth
thousands of dollars (as good as cash!), so that you'll  
enter the new millennium, with the peace of mind and good 
health that you deserve! 

*The fourth will show how to raise "$100,000 in 24hrs," 
by applying a little known, BUT powerful multimillionaire
cash flow strategy! It takes about 12 steps and a month 
to implement this secret financial transaction, then you
can walk into your bank and legally ask your bank manager 
to advance $100,000 to you, and you'll get it within 24hrs, 
by law! (These information secrets are the jealously-guarded 
secret millionaires' financial strategies, not available in the 
library, universities, or from your financial advisor!)
We are so sure of the power of this secret cash making
system that we guarantee that you'll make money your 
first week! We'll prove it to you by helping you put at 
least $1000 in your pocket one week after you get this 
Millionaires' Secret Banking Package! You'll have one whole
year to try it, and  then if you don't succeed for
any reason, you'll get double your money back! This is 
a LEGAL, ironclad, airtight cash guarantee to show you 
that we are serious!

So, if you are sick and tired of wasting your time, money 
and life dibble-dabbling in harebrained moneymaking schemes
that are nothing but worthless puffery, thank your lucky 
stars and send for our eye-opening free details right now!

Test us! Allow us to stuff at least $1,500 in easy fast 
CASH in your pocket starting next week! Blast into the 
new millennium with a new lease on life, Financial 
Security, Success, Prosperity and Happiness!

Everything you know is based on what has already happened in your life. 
And yet, your only influence right now is over things that have not yet
happened. The things that have already happened have gotten you to 
where you are right now. What you need to be concerned with, however, 
is where to go from here.

Because you're so intimately familiar with your own past, it may seem 
you have no choice but to continue moving in the same direction as 
before. But that is not true. Your future doesn't equal your past. 
Right now, there are an infinite number of paths you can take. 
The one you're currently on is only one of them. Any of the rest is 
available to you.

If you're completely satisfied with where you're going, then, by all 
means keep on going that way. But there's no reason in the world you 
have to keep following that same path if it doesn't bring you full and 
lasting fulfillment.

Every moment you have a choice, regardless of what has happened before.
Choose right now to move forward, positively, and confidently into your
incredible future.

For FREE details, hurry and callf the number below!:

                              1-800-999-1754

 
Thank you and have a nice day!

Sincerely,
CMF Enterprises

 =================End================
*****************************************
This is a legitimate business announcement, being
sent in compliance with all rules & regulations
that govern internet commerce. We respect your 
privacy. Your name  is not in our mailing list so, 
you'll get this e-mail only once!  You must respond
quickly to take advantage of our "special offer! 
Thank you and have a nice day!
*****************************************************







From postmaster at engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM  Mon Sep 11 21:44:52 2000
From: postmaster at engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: 12 Sep 2000 04:44:52 +0000
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
In-Reply-To: Tim May's message of "Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:44:30 -0700"
References: 
Message-ID: <87k8cigqwr.fsf@challah.msrl.com>

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

In article ,
Tim May  wrote:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/13169.html
> 
> "Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this
> afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that
> OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at
> slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"

$30 (now $35) is the price of a barrel of *light sweet crude*, not the
price of a barrel of refined gasoline.
-- 
Shields.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 05:31:54 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 07:31:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Attention: Any! sun.com users of the CDR
Message-ID: 


Hi,

I am receiving a bunch of bounces from some user at an unknown sun.com
address. There is apparently a 'private' or 'internal' mailing list
subscribed to SSZ. And then that list sends to some user at sun.com.
Unfortunately the address is not one setup to receive email. I have no
direct subscribers to sun.com. This means the only option I have is to go
through the subscriber list one at a time and remove each subscriber and
send a test message till it bounces. At that point I'll have to remove
that entire alias. This will effect more than this single recipient.

I have contacted sun.com requesting they verify their address is 'send
only'. If you happen to be a sun.com user you might want to look into it
as well.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM  Tue Sep 12 08:04:34 2000
From: postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:04:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
In-Reply-To: <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------



On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Tom Vogt wrote:

>sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. this is an
>economic puzzle, not a political one. food, clothes, tobacco, gas/petrol
>and a couple other things have a very unique price structure, in that
>the demand is pretty much independent of price - you just need so much
>food or tobacco or gas, no matter what it costs, and you don't have any
>need for more, no matter how cheap it is. 

Hmmm.  It seems unfair to slap a huge tax on something if there 
are *laws* in place requiring people to have and use it.  I'm 
thinking specifically of clothes, since you mentioned them.  Is 
clothing particularly heavily taxed?

In the presence of laws against public nudity, that would be 
roughly equivalent to a "head tax"...  

Since there are no laws requiring people to use gasoline/petrol, 
taxing it seems more fair to me - it at least presents people 
with a choice so they can pay up front (for an EV) or during
the vehicle's lifetime (for taxes).  Or if they are smart and 
fortune smiles upon them they can arrange their lives so they 
don't need cars. 

				Bear






From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Sep 12 08:31:18 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:31:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches for
Message-ID: 

The California legislature recently considered a law
(it apparently died in committee this year) which would 
mandate that all cars in the state be fitted with a device, 
which upon recieving an encrypted signal by laser or radio, 
would kill the engine. 

The apparent goal is to prevent car chases. 

The, bill, introduced by (State?) Senator Speier, is at 
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_2001-2050/sb_2004_bill_20000504_amend
ed_sen.html

There is substantial discussion at
http://www.technocrat.net/968678895/index_html

The bill requires that cars sold in the state after 2004 have the system, 
and cars registered after 2007 be retrofitted if neccessary.

It would be a crime to fail to fit or maintain it, or to bypass it.

It includes a provision to allow any peace officer to stop any
car at any time to inspect the system, without any mention
of warrants or probable cause.

I may write something for RISKS Digest about this.

Peter Trei





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 12 08:53:26 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:53:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: hawking DNA as unique IDs
Message-ID: <8d8ba8c981e31ec87de87e9dde705b57@melontraffickers.com>


Latest Use for Ones DNA --
               Thwarting Counterfeiters

               Carolyn Said, Chronicle Staff Writer 
                                                
                                               Monday, September 11,
                                               2000 



                       

               Syd the platypus, Millie the echidna
               and Olly the kookaburra have a secret
               weapon to foil counterfeiting crooks. 

               The furry mascots of the 2000 Summer
               Olympics in Sydney -- as well as an
               avalanche of caps, T-shirts, mugs, pins
               and other official Olympics
               merchandise -- are being tagged with
               invisible ink containing DNA strands
               from an unidentified Australian athlete. 

               The goal is to thwart increasingly
               sophisticated forgers trying to get a
               piece of the $389 million market for
               Olympics keepsakes. 

               High-quality infringements have
               increased during the past couple of
               months leading up to the games, said
               Catherine McGill, legal counsel and
               brand protection manager for the
               Sydney Organizing Committee for the
               Olympic Games. Detail-oriented
               counterfeiters copy the swing tags,
               sewn-in labels and packaging. That is
               where the DNA comes into its own as
               being the absolutely foolproof, sure
               way to determine if something is fake. 

               Other ways to combat counterfeiting,
               such as holograms, can be duplicated
               by determined bootleggers. 

               The DNA-laced ink is being applied to
               most of the 3,500 official souvenirs --
               some 50 million individual items. Its
               the largest deployment ever of DNA as
               a security device. 

               McGill oversees a team of 60
               logocops equipped with special
               scanners that can detect the DNA ink.
               The logocops will roam Sydney and
               other Australian cities, 

               pouncing on street vendors and retail
               outlets to determine whether their
               merchandise is authentic. Australian
               customs officials have already seized
               more than 120,000 phony Olympics
               souvenirs worth millions of dollars that
               were being sent into the country from
               overseas, largely from Asia, she said. 

               DNA Technologies of Los Angeles is
               the company behind the initiative,
               which reportedly costs about 5 cents
               per item. 

               Chris Outwater, president of DNA
               Technologies, said the process
               involves extracting DNA from a blood
               sample, taking a fraction of it, then
               amplifying it and adding a small
               amount to the invisible ink. Some junk
               DNA is also thrown into the mix as a
               red herring, he said. 

               Theres no way someone could take (a
               sample tag) and reproduce the mark,
               he said. Imagine standing outside the
               New York City Public Library and
               challenging a counterfeiter: Im using
               one sentence from one book inside that
               library you find that sentence. Thats
               how daunting it would be for someone
               to figure out what the code is. 

               Using DNA, the unique biological
               signature of each human, for such a
               commercial purpose signifies how
               society has come to view DNA as a
               magic potion, said Susan Lindee,
               co-author of The DNA Mystique: The
               Gene as a Cultural Icon, a 1995 book.
               Its the commercialization of the
               genome to the most ridiculous degree,
               she said. Promoters have been
               successful at weaving into popular
               culture the idea that DNA is the
               ultimate arbiter of whats true,
               authentic, real. 

               She challenged Outwaters assertion
               that a DNA security code would be
               counterfeit-proof. Most people dont
               have that kind of technical expertise,
               but if theyre only using a sequence
               there are plenty of individuals who
               could be hired (to duplicate it), she
               said. If it became truly profitable --
               lets say all designer clothing were
               tagged with DNA -- thered be
               somebody who had a financial stake in
               figuring out how to copy the DNA and
               fake it. 

               Outwater said some well-known
               designer brands have adopted the
               technology on sewn-in labels, but
               prefer not to publicize it. He hopes to
               extend the technology to such areas as
               pharmaceuticals and cosmetics, and to
               secure documents and financial
               instruments, including passports,
               currency and ID cards. 

               A reliable, duplication-proof means of
               authenticating goods is sorely needed.
               Counterfeit goods in the United States
               amount to some $200 billion a year. 

               Fine arts and sports collectibles are
               areas where authentication is crucial.
               Artist Thomas Kinkade incorporates
               some of his own DNA into the
               signatures inked on his artwork. 

               PSA/DNA Authentication Services of
               Newport Beach (Orange County)
               licenses the DNA Technologies
               product to authenticate sports
               memorabilia and autographs. After
               starting with Mark McGwires
               record-setting 70th home-run ball, it
               next tagged Hank Aarons 715th
               home-run ball and bat, and now
               broadly uses the technology. 

               Major League Baseball asked us to
               authenticate all the game balls used
               during the World Series, said Jason
               Meyerson, PSA/DNA president. We
               can apply the DNA onto the surface of
               any collectible with a custom-made
               felt-tip pen. 

               The company will provide
               representatives to stand next to Joe
               Montana as he signs autographs and
               mark each one with the invisible DNA
               ink, Meyerson said. Whats beautiful
               about it is that its permanent,
               nontransferable and invisible. 





From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Tue Sep 12 13:47:00 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009122047.NAA73784@e8.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: flaming_perimeter

Your email address: 
  cypherpunks at toad.com

We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
forget your Yahoo! ID or password.  
To learn how to change this address, read below.

**********************************************************

WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT?

You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of 
Yahoo's free, personalized services.   

My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
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To see a full list go to 
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**********************************************************

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE EMAIL ADDRESS ON YOUR ACCOUNT

Just go to any of Yahoo!'s Personalized Properties 
( like http://my.yahoo.com ) and look for the Account 
Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
under the options).  The Account Information page will 
let you update your email address, password, home and work 
address and other personal information and preferences.

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IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to
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following address:
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If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SmQyMnJ0eWBzdmV3dDIhdUpOMU8wTjYxNTchc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
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[216.116.34.30]


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From horwitz at argoscomp.com  Tue Sep 12 10:52:43 2000
From: horwitz at argoscomp.com (Samuel A Horwitz)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:52:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ANNOUNCE: OpenSSL 0.9.6 Beta 1
In-Reply-To: <20000911164349.A6933@openssl.org>
Message-ID: 

Successful build on AIX 4.3.2

OpenSSL 0.9.6-beta1 [engine] 11 Sep 2000
built on: Tue Sep 12 13:20:46 EDT 2000
platform: aix-gcc
options:  bn(64,32) md2(int) rc4(ptr,char) des(idx,cisc,4,long) idea(int) 
blowfish(idx)
sh(idx) 
compiler: gcc -O3 -DAIX -DB_ENDIAN







On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Richard Levitte wrote:

> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:43:50 +0200
> From: Richard Levitte 
> To: OpenSSL Announce ML ,
>     OpenSSL User Support ML ,
>     OpenSSL Developer ML , coderpunks at toad.com,
>     cypherpunks at openpgp.net, cryptography at c2.net
> Cc: vms-web-daemon at kjsl.com, vms-ssh at alpha.sggw.waw.pl
> Subject: ANNOUNCE: OpenSSL 0.9.6 Beta 1
> 
> 
>   OpenSSL version 0.9.6 Beta 1
>   ============================
> 
>   OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS
>   http://www.openssl.org/
> 
>   OpenSSL is currently in a release cycle.  The first beta is now released.
>   This beta is in fact two releases, one for the current mainstream
>   OpenSSL, and one with an "engine" branch incorporated.  The "engine"
>   branch contains an interface to external crypto libraries, which is
>   currently used to support the hardware devices CryptoSwift (by CryptoSwift
>   Inc), Atalla (by Compaq) and CHIL (previously called HWCryptoHook, by
>   nCipher) as well as the internal OpenSSL routines.
> 
>   The two beta releases are available for download via HTTP and FTP from the
>   following master locations (the various FTP mirrors you can find under
>   http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html):
> 
>     o http://www.openssl.org/source/
>     o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/
> 
>   The file names of the two betas are:
> 
>     o openssl-0.9.6-beta1.tar.gz
>     o openssl-engine-0.9.6-beta1.tar.gz
> 
>   Please download and test it as soon as possible.  This new OpenSSL version
>   incorporates 75 changes and bugfixes to the toolkit (for a complete list
>   see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES).
> 
>   Yours,
>   The OpenSSL Project Team...  
> 
>     Mark J. Cox             Richard Levitte    Andy Polyakov
>     Ralf S. Engelschall     Bodo M�ller        Holger Reif
>     Dr. Stephen Henson      Ulf M�ller         Geoff Thorpe
>     Ben Laurie              
> 
> --
> Richard Levitte         levitte at openssl.org
> OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/
> Software Engineer, Celo Communications: http://www.celocom.com/
> ______________________________________________________________________
> OpenSSL Project                                 http://www.openssl.org
> User Support Mailing List                    openssl-users at openssl.org
> Automated List Manager                           majordomo at openssl.org
> 


horwitz at argoscomp.com (Samuel A Horwitz)





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 10:58:53 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:58:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: DNA
Message-ID: <39BE6ECC.F18B37B0@lsil.com>

Does UV light destroy DNA? I know it is a reasonable way to sterilize
water ( with some caveats ) which it does by denaturing proteins. 

If DNA is also destroyed would not a baseball eventually become
invalidated just by sitting on a shelf? 

What other weaknesses are there? 

As someone wears and handles clothing, washes it along with clothing
worn by others wouldn't the DNA become damaged or contaminated? 

Is it only useful as a mfr to retail validation?

Sounds trendy but I'd bet it has problems.





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 12 11:11:26 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:11:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches
In-Reply-To: <39BE6D16.9BF1D33E@lsil.com>
References: <39BE6D16.9BF1D33E@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:48 PM -0400 9/12/00, Michael Motyka wrote:
>This has been around for a couple of years. It was started by a
>politician from San Jose who I think has some connection$ to a startup
>that makes a product called Halt. Golly, he wouldn't be abusing the
>public trust would he? A quick search didn't turn up either the SJMN
>article or anything else but it's there somewhere. Anyway, these are
>bad^H^H^H truly evil people^H^H^H^H^H^H scumbags. It's worth keeping an
>eye on them and trying to create publicity when the bill mutates and
>crawls out of the cesspool again. Which it will do annually until it is
>passed. I would doubt that voters would approve a measure like this if
>they knew enough about it. Generally it's limited publicity controlled
>by the proposers that lets this sort of garbage bloom.
>
>Found something : http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a383094c56f00.htm
>
>OK background. Discussion board. All predictable stuff.
>
>When a bill is passed the sooner the system is hacked and the mfgrs are
>in the liability courts the better. I can't really say what I want to
>say about the company and the politicians...the sensors are everywhere.

There was some talk on the Cypherpunks list some years back. May be 
findable in the archives with Google.

The political scumdroids will of course write liability exemptions 
into the laws. (Don't think they can do that? It's done a lot, 
especially when "it's for the children!!" gets invoked.)

As for what should be done with such scumdroids and the legal pieces 
of shit who support their actions, I'm not afraid to say what should 
be done with them: more freedom fighters like McVeigh need to park 
trucks filled with ANFO in front of their dens. That, or biological 
and nerve agents. Wiping out several hundred in one legislative 
session would send a message.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Sep 12 11:23:34 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:23:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
Message-ID: 


Tim wrote

> At 10:35 AM -0700 9/12/00, Marshall Clow wrote:
> >	Refinery:		17.2 [ I'm guessing this includes raw 
> >oil costs ]
> >	Retailer:		 4.2
> >	VAT:		12.64
> >	Duty:		50.89
> >
> >	Total		84.9 [ this is the price at the pump ]
> >
> >that's 74.8% tax, folks.
> 
> Which is of course what the original article was saying.
> 
> A nit, but "74.8% tax" may be misleading to some. It suggests a tax 
> rate of "only" about 10 times the normal sales tax (normal in the 
> States, for ordinary goods). In fact, the 75% is of course 75% of the 
> final price. Or, roughly a 400% tax on the original commodity.
> 
> For example, imagine a Jaguar XK8 costing $60K plus $240K in taxes. 
> 75% in taxes would suggest 60K plus 45K. The oil situation is 400% in 
> taxes.
> 
A nit on a nit: This is ~300% tax, not ~400%. Consider: 10 pounds worth
(to the refiner/dealer) of petrol yeilds s the British government about 30 
pounds of taxes. ie, 300% of the cost of the item.

It's still mind-boggling that a nominally free people will put up with this
kind
of organized theft.

Peter 

> Welcome to statism.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> 




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep 12 12:02:52 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:02:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches
References: <39BE6D16.9BF1D33E@lsil.com> 
Message-ID: <39BE7D10.5ED3FD73@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
 be done with them: more freedom fighters like McVeigh need to park
> trucks filled with ANFO in front of their dens. That, or biological
> and nerve agents. Wiping out several hundred in one legislative
> session would send a message.

a message - yes.

but which one? here's a suggestion: "we need more police, laws and
control to avoid such things."

I was about to offer a bet on this, but I guess nobody will take it. :)





From postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM  Tue Sep 12 06:26:58 2000
From: postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:26:58 +0200
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
Message-ID: <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
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P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
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E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
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-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Tim May wrote:
> "Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this
> afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that
> OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at
> slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"

this is true, and similiar pretty much all over europe.

> 
> This is from the U.K., where tax policy is ahead of that of the U.S.
> Whilst we are (almost) ready to mcveigh the tax collectors and wipe
> out millions of burrowcrats, the Brits are quite sheeplike in
> accepting taxes which are several times the price of the underlying
> commodity. Germany, France, Sweden, Italy, and essentially all other
> European nations are similarly sheep-like in their acceptance of such
> taxes.

sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. this is an
economic puzzle, not a political one. food, clothes, tobacco, gas/petrol
and a couple other things have a very unique price structure, in that
the demand is pretty much independent of price - you just need so much
food or tobacco or gas, no matter what it costs, and you don't have any
need for more, no matter how cheap it is. it's therefore been a
long-known fact that you can change prices for this stuff at will
without any change in demand. the only thing stopping you is the
competition.
now a tax is valid for everyone, so the last stop gap is out. therefore,
gas and tobacco are the two highest-taxed items here in germany, and I'm
fairly sure in most of europe.

why don't we complain? oh, we do (a little). :)

in the end, it doesn't matter much. I don't think europeans pay much
more in taxes than US citizen do, it's just distributed differently.




From postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM  Tue Sep 12 06:28:37 2000
From: postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:28:37 +0200
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
	 <87k8cigqwr.fsf@challah.msrl.com> 
Message-ID: <39BE2F85.FEE39044@ricardo.de>

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
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Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
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-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Tim May wrote:
> The quote said nothing to the contrary. Crude results in some
> fraction of gasoline/petrol, and taxes are applied. His point was
> that the taxes are about 4-5 times the cost of the underlying petrol,
> which is about what it is in the U.K. (Last I heard, gas in the U.K.
> is about the equivalent of about $4-5 a gallon for unleaded regular.)

germany: ca. 2 marks per litre, which means $4 per gallon. give or take
a little due to currency fluctuations and whatever.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 12 12:40:58 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:40:58 -0400
Subject: CDR: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
Message-ID: <0fbaa27cee1277f5c4941003534099bd@melontraffickers.com>


So when is APster coming out, which lets
you trade lists of deserving people?



Tuesday September 12 5:11 AM ET
     Abortion Web Site Verdict Appealed

     By WILLIAM McCALL, Associated Press Writer 

     PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) - Anti-abortion activists are
     asking a federal appeals court to overturn a $109 million
     verdict by a jury that decided a Web site and posters listing
     the names of abortion doctors and clinics were threats that
     went beyond free speech.

     The case is widely seen as a test of a Supreme Court ruling that defined a threat as
     explicit language likely to cause imminent lawless action - and a measure of how
     far anti-abortion activists can go in harrying doctors and clinics.

     Oral arguments in the appeal are scheduled Tuesday before a panel of the 9th U.S.
     Circuit Court of Appeals.

     At issue is a Web site called The Nuremberg Files that listed hundreds of abortion
     doctors accused of committing crimes against humanity and invited readers to
     send in doctors addresses, license plate numbers and even the names of their
     children.

     Last year, the dozen anti-abortion activists argued the posters and Web site were
     free speech protected under the First Amendment. Critics called it a hit list.

     The jury was told by U.S. District Judge Robert Jones to consider the history of
     violence in the anti-abortion movement, including three doctors killed after their
     names appeared on the lists.

     One was Dr. Barnett Slepian, who was gunned down by a sniper in October 1998 at
     his home near Buffalo, N.Y. Slepians name was crossed out on The Nuremberg
     Files Web site later that day.

     In 1995, Planned Parenthood and four doctors sued the anti-abortion activists under
     federal racketeering statutes and the 1994 Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances
     Act, which makes it illegal to incite violence against abortion doctors and their
     patients.

     Jones told the jury the Wanted-style posters and Web site were not free speech if
     a reasonable person could perceive them as threats.

     But a number of legal experts have criticized the February 1999 jury verdict and
     those instructions, saying a threat must be explicit.

     If youre looking for a case likely to go to the Supreme Court, this is one, said Lee
     Tornquist, a law professor who specializes in the First Amendment at Willamette
     University in Salem, Ore.

     Others consider the jury decision sound.

     Margie Kelly, spokeswoman for the Center for Reproductive Law and Policy in
     New York, said Jones correctly told the jury to weigh any threat in context.

     This is a case that is built on history, Kelly said. You have had years of arson,
     shootings, death threats. How can that context be considered anything but a threat?

     The Georgia computer programmer who ran the Nuremberg Files was not a
     defendant in the lawsuit. After the verdict, his Internet provider pulled the plug on
     the site.

     Among the anti-abortion activists appealing the ruling is Michael Bray of Bowie,
     Md., author of a book that justifies killing doctors to stop abortions. Bray served
     time in federal prison from 1985 to 1989 for his role in arson attacks and bombings
     of seven clinics.






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 13:01:10 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:01:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches
Message-ID: <39BE8C46.BABDF497@lsil.com>

> The political scumdroids will of course write liability exemptions 
> into the laws. (Don't think they can do that? It's done a lot, 
> especially when "it's for the children!!" gets invoked.)
> 
Oh, I believe it. It fits right in with the "tort reform" platform.

> As for what should be done with such scumdroids and the legal pieces 
> of shit who support their actions, I'm not afraid to say what should 
> be done with them: more freedom fighters like McVeigh need to park 
> trucks filled with ANFO in front of their dens. That, or biological 
> and nerve agents. Wiping out several hundred in one legislative 
> session would send a message.
>
I enjoy the rhetorical device of visiting death and destruction on the
bad guys and clearly there is no shortage of politicians whose actual
passing out of this life -by unspecified means- would make the world a
safer, cleaner place but calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the
mark. 0 points for that one. 

Anyway, I'd like to see some details about that Halt disease so that
when my car catches it the vaccine development is already well underway.

Mike





From marcel at aiurea.com  Tue Sep 12 13:19:08 2000
From: marcel at aiurea.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:19:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
References: <0fbaa27cee1277f5c4941003534099bd@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <006d01c01cf6$61ee3eb0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>

More stuff for Freenet, it seems. I'm really curious how "they" would
consider handling such documents instead MP3s - better or worse?

Mark


From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 12 16:45:22 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:45:22 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
Message-ID: <48d56e94e472edcc1b6edd8649fed727@melontraffickers.com>

>Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs

Who cares ? Stop whining and use encryption.

Dont waste the bandwidth complaining about each and every sheeple
xploiting event. Being outraged doesnt achieve shit.





From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep 12 14:00:33 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:00:33 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: GA-CAT-CA
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.1.2.20000909103839.02544ee8@shell11.ba.best.com>
 
  
Message-ID: 

At 9:25 PM -0700 on 9/11/00, petro wrote:


>>including subpoenas for, apparently now, Snowball's fur...
>>
> 	Funny you should mention Snowball...
>
> 	http://www.ornl.gov/hgmis/elsi/forensics.html

Heh.

That was my *point*, I think...

:-).

Cheers,

RAH
Who admits to listening to National People's Radio on occasion...
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 14:00:35 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:00:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes 
Message-ID: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>


> So when is APster coming out, which lets
> you trade lists of deserving people?
> 
It may actually be extremely difficult to create an APster.

...

The violent anti-abortion movement's method for coping with coexistent
conflicting thoughts and behaviors is a form of dysfunction not unlike
that of a stroke patient who sees himself in a mirror and is unable to
perceive his own paralysis or similar paralysis in others. A moribund
arm can be perceived as functioning normally. A half-paralyzed face can
be perceived as smiling left and right. Amazing. Pathetic.

Or criminal. Were I a doctor I would consider the Nuremberg Files site a
direct and credible threat. The jury decision was the correct one. 

Were the roles swapped and abortion completely outlawed why does it seem
unlikely that the legalize abortion movement would be listing for
termination or firebombing Fundamentalists? Which would you prefer as
your next door neighbor? 

>Tuesday September 12 5:11 AM ET
>     Abortion Web Site Verdict Appealed
>
>     By WILLIAM McCALL, Associated Press Writer 
>
>     PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) - Anti-abortion activists are
>     asking a federal appeals court to overturn a $109 million
>     verdict by a jury that decided a Web site and posters listing
>     the names of abortion doctors and clinics were threats that
>     went beyond free speech.
>
>     ...
>
>     At issue is a Web site called The Nuremberg Files that listed hundreds of abortion
>     doctors accused of committing crimes against humanity and invited readers to
>     send in doctors addresses, license plate numbers and even the names of their
>     children.
>
>     ...
>
>     Last year, the dozen anti-abortion activists argued the posters and Web site were
>     free speech protected under the First Amendment. Critics called it a hit list.
>
>     The jury was told by U.S. District Judge Robert Jones to consider the history of
>     violence in the anti-abortion movement, including three doctors killed after their
>     names appeared on the lists.
>
>     One was Dr. Barnett Slepian, who was gunned down by a sniper in October 1998 at
>     his home near Buffalo, N.Y. Slepians name was crossed out on The Nuremberg
>     Files Web site later that day.
>
>     ...
>
>     This is a case that is built on history, Kelly said. You have had years of arson,
>     shootings, death threats. How can that context be considered anything but a threat?
>
>     The Georgia computer programmer who ran the Nuremberg Files was not a
>     defendant in the lawsuit. After the verdict, his Internet provider pulled the plug on
>     the site.
>
>     Among the anti-abortion activists appealing the ruling is Michael Bray of Bowie,
>     Md., author of a book that justifies killing doctors to stop abortions. Bray served
>     time in federal prison from 1985 to 1989 for his role in arson attacks and bombings
>     of seven clinics.
>





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 15:15:56 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:15:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Test - No Reply - Testing for nested bounces
Message-ID: 



    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Sep 12 14:44:32 2000
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:44:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
Message-ID: <200009122144.RAA03630@www2.aa.psiweb.com>

Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs
in received email to proxy through their server, meaning
they had logs of all URLs you visited when clicking on
hyperlinks while reading your personal email.

That this violates their own privacy policy.

For some reason Declan failed to report it. ;-)
Analog film chemicals must be affecting his judgement.

New note: if you bookmark the URL in the personal email someone
sent you, it bookmarks it at the USA.net address.

----

Here is the resulting URL in the new window USA.net opens
when you click on an URL in your email:

http://www.netaddress.com/tpl/Info/Popup?hidden___url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F

I just tried scooping it and using it directly, trying amazon here.

It worked.

Anyone have direct access to their own server logs?
What cookies/referrals/misc is logged on the receiving system?

Continue clicking, and it's still via USA.net.

It looks like a free "anonymizer" to me.




From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep 12 14:47:01 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:47:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
In-Reply-To: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>
References: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 

> APster

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a winner here.

Outstanding...

Cogito neologo est,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From jburnes at savvis.net  Tue Sep 12 14:50:23 2000
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:50:23 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
In-Reply-To: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>
References: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <00091216484501.31045@reality.eng.savvis.net>

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:

> The violent anti-abortion movement's method for coping with coexistent
> conflicting thoughts and behaviors is a form of dysfunction not unlike
> that of a stroke patient who sees himself in a mirror and is unable to
> perceive his own paralysis or similar paralysis in others. A moribund
> arm can be perceived as functioning normally. A half-paralyzed face can
> be perceived as smiling left and right. Amazing. Pathetic.
>
> Or criminal. Were I a doctor I would consider the Nuremberg Files site a
> direct and credible threat. The jury decision was the correct one.
>

More to the point.  Would a supreme court ruling in this respect be a
good ruling.  Trying to read someone's mind and trying him on his
supposed thoughts is a little like convicting a man via ESP.

Despite the fact that the man running the site wrote that killing
abortion doctors would be justified, he did not explicitly state
that these people or their families should be harmed.  Shunned
perhaps, protested against perhaps.  But incitement to murder
should have an extremely high standard of evidence and equally
high protection of the supposed speech by the first amendment.

The second point assumes that a common citizen would react
by killing the people on his web page.  If a cypherpunk copied
his page and archived it on his website would it also be incitement
to murder?  The implication is that guilt or innocence is dependent
upon the visitors to your web site.  

If the supreme upholds this it could set a precedent to go after
any web site that publishes controversial data.  By the same
standard of evidence can we convict everyone that supplies
data regarding drugs, machine gun construction techniques,
bomb making info of 'knowing that someone would use it
to nefarious ends?'  The jury in this case says that the 
publisher of the information is responsible for the potential
use of the information.

And that is one long slippery slope.  Not that Congress 
wouldn't be game.

I think a more credible indictment would be charges of aiding
and abetting the killers.  Of course you need evidence
for that.  That takes real work from police detectives.
Gosh, couldn't have any of that.

For the record, I am not anti-abortion.

jim

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural





From anonymous at openpgp.net  Tue Sep 12 15:11:15 2000
From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:11:15 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches
Message-ID: <9a12e15191b5498d0c6a96bd9875054c@remailer.privacy.at>

Michael Motyka wrote:

> I enjoy the rhetorical device of visiting death and destruction on the
> bad guys and clearly there is no shortage of politicians whose actual
> passing out of this life -by unspecified means- would make the world a
> safer, cleaner place but calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the
> mark. 0 points for that one. 

Why?





From galt at inconnu.isu.edu  Tue Sep 12 17:28:21 2000
From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:28:21 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <004701c01ca1$2520e8c0$145865cb@default>
Message-ID: 


Since you're using a HTML client as your MUA, it should be so easy that
even an idiot...oh! never mind.

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, scott mckay wrote:

> DONT TELL ME TOO LOOK IN A SEARCH ENGINE U RUDE PERSON AND FUCK TO U TO OKAY
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Click here for Free Video!!
> http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
> 
> 

-- 
FINE, I take it back: UNfuck you!

Who is John Galt?  galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who!




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 16:04:43 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:04:43 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
Message-ID: <39BEB6E6.F2E1C82F@lsil.com>

Hmmm...

I'll stipulate that the common citizen, when faced with a tirade about
killing those who perform abortions and a list of names and addresses of
offenders, would not immediately put 2 and 2 together to make 3 and
start killing doctors. Now put yourself in the position of an average
citizen who sees his own name in the list following a tirade about
killing those who drive gasoline-guzzling, polluting, Corolla-crushing
SUVs. I'm sure he would feel threatened. So the site in question is not
the same as a site that simply expresses a political opinion or
distributes instructions on how to create dangerous devices. It is more
like a site that distributes this info and then list specific targets
that should be considered as applications. The site owners took a
concrete step towards carrying out a threat : they gathered and
published personal information. I'm sure the appeal to the jury was
along these lines.

OTOH perhaps you're right that speech of all sorts should have the
highest of protections regardless of how it is perceived by a
vanishingly small number of persons in the audience be they potential
agents or targets. In which case the choice of methods for dealing with
threats would be left solely to the individuals who perceive them.

I suppose there's a downside either way. Can't win. Best you can do is
break even. And you can't even do that.

>On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>> The violent anti-abortion movement's method for coping with coexistent
>> conflicting thoughts and behaviors is a form of dysfunction not unlike
>> that of a stroke patient who sees himself in a mirror and is unable to
>> perceive his own paralysis or similar paralysis in others. A moribund
>> arm can be perceived as functioning normally. A half-paralyzed face can
>> be perceived as smiling left and right. Amazing. Pathetic.
>>
>> Or criminal. Were I a doctor I would consider the Nuremberg Files site a
>> direct and credible threat. The jury decision was the correct one.
>>
>
>More to the point.  Would a supreme court ruling in this respect be a
>good ruling.  Trying to read someone's mind and trying him on his
>supposed thoughts is a little like convicting a man via ESP.
>
>Despite the fact that the man running the site wrote that killing
>abortion doctors would be justified, he did not explicitly state
>that these people or their families should be harmed.  Shunned
>perhaps, protested against perhaps.  But incitement to murder
>should have an extremely high standard of evidence and equally
>high protection of the supposed speech by the first amendment.
>
>The second point assumes that a common citizen would react
>by killing the people on his web page.  If a cypherpunk copied
>his page and archived it on his website would it also be incitement
>to murder?  The implication is that guilt or innocence is dependent
>upon the visitors to your web site.  
>
>If the supreme upholds this it could set a precedent to go after
>any web site that publishes controversial data.  By the same
>standard of evidence can we convict everyone that supplies
>data regarding drugs, machine gun construction techniques,
>bomb making info of 'knowing that someone would use it
>to nefarious ends?'  The jury in this case says that the 
>publisher of the information is responsible for the potential
>use of the information.
>
>And that is one long slippery slope.  Not that Congress 
>wouldn't be game.
>
>I think a more credible indictment would be charges of aiding
>and abetting the killers.  Of course you need evidence
>for that.  That takes real work from police detectives.
>Gosh, couldn't have any of that.
>
>For the record, I am not anti-abortion.
>
>jim
>





From umbros68 at one.net.au  Tue Sep 12 03:06:38 2000
From: umbros68 at one.net.au (scott mckay)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:36:38 +0930
Subject: CDR: DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <004701c01ca1$2520e8c0$145865cb@default>

DONT TELL ME TOO LOOK IN A SEARCH ENGINE U RUDE PERSON AND FUCK TO U TO OKAY
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 16:41:55 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:41:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: Why?
Message-ID: <39BEBEF6.C0D99CED@lsil.com>

>> ...calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the mark. 0 points for that one. 
>
>Why?
>
Only accomplishments : 
    a greal deal of pain for some plain folks
    a loss of legal ground that may never be recovered

Altruism and patriotism were not factors

I can't imagine what was



Broken eggs, not one trace of an omelette

Negative points I'd say.

Oh well.





From ichudov at Algebra.Com  Tue Sep 12 17:54:53 2000
From: ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:54:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Is Janer Reno a lesbian?
Message-ID: <200009130057.TAA19283@manifold.algebra.com>

see subject

	- Igor.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 12 17:10:25 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:10:25 -0400
Subject: CDR: VISA to smartcard the US
Message-ID: <25091dc6fdad8c13970116f045daa308@melontraffickers.com>

Sep 12, 2000 - 07:27 PM 

            Visa USA to Launch Smart Card in
            the U.S. 
            The Associated Press

            NEW YORK (AP) - After success with its smart card in
            Europe and Japan, Visa is aiming squarely at the U.S.
            market with an upgraded version that contains more
            memory. 

            Over the next couple of weeks, Visa USA, the
            companys U.S. division, will be launching smart cards
            - microprocessors embedded in plastic -that will offer
            prepackaged services to be determined by its issuers. 

            Customers will be able to download information from
            their computers via special card readers. Over the next
            year or so, they will be able to store airline tickets, for
            example, and eventually use the cards as keys to their
            cars and homes. 

            The card, which has 32 kilobytes of memory, is
            different from Visas original version, which has mainly
            served as a "monetary value card," said Al Banisch,
            senior vice president of consumer credit products. 

            The new card will be available free to Visas 350
            million cardholders. 





From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Tue Sep 12 20:25:40 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:25:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009130325.UAA12653@e10.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: flaming_perimeter

Your email address: 
  cypherpunks at toad.com

We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
forget your Yahoo! ID or password.  
To learn how to change this address, read below.

**********************************************************

WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT?

You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of 
Yahoo's free, personalized services.   

My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
Yahoo Calendar - http://calendar.yahoo.com
Yahoo Chat - http://chat.yahoo.com
Yahoo Classifieds - http://classifieds.yahoo.com
Yahoo Clubs - http://clubs.yahoo.com
Yahoo Finance - http://quote.yahoo.com
Yahoo Games - http://play.yahoo.com
Yahoo GeoCities - http://geocities.yahoo.com
Yahoo Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com
Yahoo Message Boards - http://messages.yahoo.com
Yahoo Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.com
Yahoo Travel - http://travel.yahoo.com

To see a full list go to 
  http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/family/more.html

You can return to Yahoo! Chat by going to
  http://chat.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE EMAIL ADDRESS ON YOUR ACCOUNT

Just go to any of Yahoo!'s Personalized Properties 
( like http://my.yahoo.com ) and look for the Account 
Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
under the options).  The Account Information page will 
let you update your email address, password, home and work 
address and other personal information and preferences.

**********************************************************

THANK YOU FOR SIGNING UP WITH YAHOO!

If you have additional questions regarding other Yahoo! 
Services, we suggest Yahoo! Help Central at: 
http://help.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to
use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the 
following address:
http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV%2bemJzYnU4jiF5SmMyNX94NDV6YmEwfXohdUpOMU9PNjIyNE4hc0pkf2Zz

If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SmMyNX94NDV6YmEwfXohdUpOMU9PNjIyNE4hc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your 
reply) with REMOVE as the subject line.

[216.116.34.143]


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From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep 12 11:55:35 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:55:35 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
Message-ID: <39BE7C27.58ED1DC4@ricardo.de>

Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Hmmm.  It seems unfair to slap a huge tax on something if there
> are *laws* in place requiring people to have and use it.  I'm
> thinking specifically of clothes, since you mentioned them.  Is
> clothing particularly heavily taxed?

not that I knew of. I included it for the *economic* argument - there
are other horizonal price structure items that are not heavily taxed -
food, for example.



> Since there are no laws requiring people to use gasoline/petrol,
> taxing it seems more fair to me - it at least presents people
> with a choice so they can pay up front (for an EV) or during
> the vehicle's lifetime (for taxes).  Or if they are smart and
> fortune smiles upon them they can arrange their lives so they
> don't need cars.

something similiar holds for tobacco. however, fact is that almost
nobody reduces is driving or smoking habits if prices go up. there is a
short drop in consumption, but as the shock wears off, consumption
returns to normal. we're speaking a few days, at most a week or two
here.




From marlyse at worldonline.fr  Tue Sep 12 12:09:18 2000
From: marlyse at worldonline.fr (malou)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:09:18 +0200
Subject: CDR: Sender: owner-cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Message-ID: <002f01c01cec$f5aba3e0$1c0313d5@malou>

could you give me some decoders which can decode the satellite like:
sky One or others channels on astra or Hot Bird...
And don't forget keys for the decrypting...
I thank you.
My configuration is a pII 233 with 64 megs of ram and a tuner card BT878.
If you can give me english links about good vidéo-decrypting for satellite,and if you can find me keys in.VCK or .VCR, it will be very sympatic to contact me ...Thank you a lot...

Nucléus and malou...We are french, excuse us for our bad prononciation...Marlyse is very bad in english(Joke)

Marlyse at worldonline.fr  
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From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:17:30 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:17:30 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
In-Reply-To: <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>
References: 
 <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 

>Tim May wrote:
>>  "Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this
>>  afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that
>>  OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at
>>  slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"
>
>this is true, and similiar pretty much all over europe.
>
>>
>>  This is from the U.K., where tax policy is ahead of that of the U.S.
>>  Whilst we are (almost) ready to mcveigh the tax collectors and wipe
>>  out millions of burrowcrats, the Brits are quite sheeplike in
>>  accepting taxes which are several times the price of the underlying
>>  commodity. Germany, France, Sweden, Italy, and essentially all other
>>  European nations are similarly sheep-like in their acceptance of such
>>  taxes.
>
>sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. this is an
>economic puzzle, not a political one. food, clothes, tobacco, gas/petrol

	Then you neither understand politics, or economics.

	And no, I don't claim to either, but as near as I can tell 
there isn't a  spits worth of difference between economics and 
politics.

>and a couple other things have a very unique price structure, in that
>the demand is pretty much independent of price - you just need so much
>food or tobacco or gas, no matter what it costs, and you don't have any

	Food maybe, but tobacco and gas are both things that *can* be 
done without.

>in the end, it doesn't matter much. I don't think europeans pay much
>more in taxes than US citizen do, it's just distributed differently.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 19:30:25 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:30:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: <39BEBEF6.C0D99CED@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:

>     a greal deal of pain for some plain folks

The folks who worked at the federal building were far from 'plain' folks.
It isn't like they walked into a corner grocery.

In addition, the plain fact is there is a considerable underground
movement in this country today which is in direct and potentialy violent
opposition to this countries current political infra-structure.

Ask yourself this, how could a fugitive who is wanted for several bombings
stay un-found for four years? He certainly isn't working by himself and
there is considerable funding available clearly.

Minimize the politics as you may, it's just sticking your head in the
ground. These sorts of incidents are just the tip of an iceberg.

>     a loss of legal ground that may never be recovered

What legal ground was lost through the execution, apprehension, and
presecution of these people?


    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Tue Sep 12 18:36:30 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:36:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: DNA
In-Reply-To: Michael Motyka's message of "Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:58:53 -0400"
References: <39BE6ECC.F18B37B0@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <84wvghxee4.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Michael Motyka  writes:

> Does UV light destroy DNA? I know it is a reasonable way to sterilize
> water ( with some caveats ) which it does by denaturing proteins. 

UV light tends to totally hose up the DNA. The main problem, at least
in bacteria, is caused by the creation of a bunch of
cyclobutane-pyrimidine dimers and pyrimidine dimers. An enzyme called
photolyase cuts pyramidine dimers to get the original _two_
pyramidines back. (Photolyase uses visible light for activation, if
anyone cares.) This is a repair mechanism, but doesn't work 100% of
the time and has the occasional error.

The short answer is that UV light screws the DNA up. Sometimes the
cell can fix it, and sometimes it can't. But it probably wouldn't
throw off gel electrophoresis too much. (In forensics, the DNA is
subjected to a bunch of restriction enzymes which cut it at specific
sequences. Different DNA gets cut at different places, meaning that
the fragments have different lengths, meaning that they're of
substantially different weight. These are put on a gel and pulled
through it by an electrical field. If a fragment is heavier, it
doesn't go as far.)

DNA isn't a protein, though, and, strangely enough, isn't anywhere
near as dependent on secondary, tertiary, and quartenary structure as
proteins tend to be. Proteins have to be in a specific confirmation to
get the desired functionality. DNA just kind of needs to be
there. (It's more complicated than this, of course, because of things
that happen in cell division, but I could sit here and write a
book-sized posting which nobody, including me, wants.)

IIRC, DNA also tends to renature, either by itself or with the help of
other mechanisms. (cf. histones, etc.)

> If DNA is also destroyed would not a baseball eventually become
> invalidated just by sitting on a shelf? 

Yes, but not so much by UV light as by the occasional bacterium which
secretes something to break it, and by probably hundreds of other
processes. 

> As someone wears and handles clothing, washes it along with clothing
> worn by others wouldn't the DNA become damaged or contaminated? 

One would think.

> Sounds trendy but I'd bet it has problems.

Oh yeah.





From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:37:25 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:37:25 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

>On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>>      a greal deal of pain for some plain folks
>
>The folks who worked at the federal building were far from 'plain' folks.
>It isn't like they walked into a corner grocery.
>
>In addition, the plain fact is there is a considerable underground
>movement in this country today which is in direct and potentialy violent
>opposition to this countries current political infra-structure.
>
>Ask yourself this, how could a fugitive who is wanted for several bombings
>stay un-found for four years? He certainly isn't working by himself and
>there is considerable funding available clearly.

	The system is structured to catch criminals using the same 
"MO" and stupid people (often one in the same).
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:39:22 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:39:22 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

He of the CDR tag wrote:
>>  On the cynical side: maybe the feds shouldn't be putting child care
>>  facilities in potential terrorist targets.  (Really cynical: maybe
>>  it was intended as a human shield.)
>
>Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.

	It is quite likely that the people in position to make that 
decision did not have their own children in that facility.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:41:07 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:41:07 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: gun permits
In-Reply-To: <13074a92ca7e1c47f5eb07fc4705d216@remailer.ch>
References: <13074a92ca7e1c47f5eb07fc4705d216@remailer.ch>
Message-ID: 

>I'm somewhat amused by the irony of the Canadian government
>advertisements to register early for gun ownership permits
>interspersed between the dramatization of the Neurenberg trials.
>
>I wonder what proportion of the sheeple even noticed the irony.
>
>(The nazi's instituted gun ownership laws soon after they came to
>power).

	No, they didn't. They strengthened already Draconian laws, 
and passed a law making jews, gypsies, and others "non-human".

	Which is a lot worse.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:49:27 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:49:27 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 

(I'm cc'ing this to the cypherpunks list as well)

The easy solution to this is to put up a web page with information 
*about* the NAMBLA site, and instructions on how to request that the 
site be delivered anonymously--as a gzip, zip, or stuffit archive.

If one has access to a web server that allows cgi, this is fairly 
trivial to do with two way anonymity.

Another solution would be to create a newsgroup like 
alt.websites.censored.binary and post the archive there every two or 
three days, and just link that from the web site.

While I am not willing to take the heat for posting the NAMBLA site 
on my server (for fear of getting my connectivity yanked) I am 
willing to assist in working out a system where this information can 
be made available to those who wish it without having to deal with 
the public scrutiny.


>[A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. 
>Any offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume 
>they'll be duly forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in 
>question here would last on a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]
>
>---
>
>Hi Declan,
>
>I know you're aware of the case of Curley v. NAMBLA, which has very
>serious First Amendment implications. Jeffrey Curley was a 10-year-old
>who was murdered in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in October of 1997. The
>parents are alleging that the murderers were driven by NAMBLA literature
>in general and specifically by the contents of NAMBLA's web site. After
>the suit was filed in May of this year, the current NAMBLA web site was
>taken down.
>
>Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and false
>statements about what was on the web site. Because the media has no
>access to the site, no one can contradict him. A vicious media war is
>now being waged against the ACLU and other free-expression advocates for
>defending freedom of expression in this case. Few reporters seem even
>interested in finding out the contents of NAMBLA literature or the
>contents of the web site as of 10/97. But even if a fair-minded reporter
>did have this interest, he or she would be out of luck. Printed material
>from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will speak to the
>press only under conditions of strict anonymity because they fear for
>their lives. And the web site is not accessible.
>
>I am not a NAMBLA member, but I believe that the First Amendment applies
>to them. I have obtained the web files as of 10/97. I don't wish to put
>them up myself for a variety of reasons. First of all, my ISP might make
>me take them down. Also, I am involved in another case which I don't
>want tarred with the NAMBLA brush. There is no court injunction against
>the publication of the materials. But a site outside the US might be
>best in any case.
>
>Anyway, if you can help me find someone to take the files and put them
>up, please let me know.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Tue Sep 12 19:26:43 2000
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:26:43 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:30:25PM -0500
References: <39BEBEF6.C0D99CED@lsil.com> 
Message-ID: <20000912222643.I120@ils.unc.edu>

On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:30:25PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:
> 
> >     a greal deal of pain for some plain folks
> 
> The folks who worked at the federal building were far from 'plain' folks.
> It isn't like they walked into a corner grocery.

On the sympathetic side: there was a child care facility there too, and
for the children, it *was* like they walked into a grocery or other
place they shouldn't have needed to fear.

On the cynical side: maybe the feds shouldn't be putting child care
facilities in potential terrorist targets.  (Really cynical: maybe
it was intended as a human shield.)

> In addition, the plain fact is there is a considerable underground
> movement in this country today which is in direct and potentialy violent
> opposition to this countries current political infra-structure.

I'm distrustful of the government enough to think that most reports
and statistics about such groups are greatly exaggerated.  After all,
what better basis do the feds et al. have for increased surveillance,
bigger budgets, and laws that limit privacy?

> Ask yourself this, how could a fugitive who is wanted for several bombings
> stay un-found for four years? He certainly isn't working by himself and
> there is considerable funding available clearly.

Yes, obvious funding and underground support.  But I also take this
as a good indication that in spite of how difficult it is to 
withdraw from society's radar entirely (e.g., get no mail, no
driver's license, no social security records, etc.), some people
can do it well enough so they can't be easily found.

Or maybe law enforcement is simply incompetent, and everyone
from Blockbuster Video to Home Depot can tell you everything you
might want to know about 90% of adults in the US.

  -- Greg
 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 20:29:47 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:29:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: <20000912222643.I120@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Greg Newby wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:30:25PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:
> > 
> > >     a greal deal of pain for some plain folks
> > 
> > The folks who worked at the federal building were far from 'plain' folks.
> > It isn't like they walked into a corner grocery.
> 
> On the sympathetic side: there was a child care facility there too, and
> for the children, it *was* like they walked into a grocery or other
> place they shouldn't have needed to fear.

In no way to dismiss the horror, but...

A *federal* child care facility. What knuckle-head ok'ed putting a child
care facility in the same building as several federal LEA headquarters?
And what sort of parent would want to put their child there...?

Doh!

> On the cynical side: maybe the feds shouldn't be putting child care
> facilities in potential terrorist targets.  (Really cynical: maybe
> it was intended as a human shield.)

Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Sep 12 20:19:58 2000
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:19:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
Message-ID: <200009130319.XAA03721@www3.aa.psiweb.com>

I wrote:
>Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs

A. Melon"  wrote:
#    Who cares ? Stop whining and use encryption.
#    
#    Dont waste the bandwidth complaining about each and every sheeple
#    xploiting event. Being outraged doesnt achieve shit.

Hey numbnuts:

   o  the email isn't local to my system
   o  I don't complain about every little thing, you do
   o  being outraged is a good first step towards achieving shit
   o  you wasted bandwidth

You're just another luser.

You're on the right list.

IBM nutter Choate is here.




From declan at well.com  Tue Sep 12 20:34:30 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:34:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>

[A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. Any 
offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume they'll be duly 
forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in question here would last on 
a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]

---

Hi Declan,

I know you're aware of the case of Curley v. NAMBLA, which has very
serious First Amendment implications. Jeffrey Curley was a 10-year-old
who was murdered in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in October of 1997. The
parents are alleging that the murderers were driven by NAMBLA literature
in general and specifically by the contents of NAMBLA's web site. After
the suit was filed in May of this year, the current NAMBLA web site was
taken down.

Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and false
statements about what was on the web site. Because the media has no
access to the site, no one can contradict him. A vicious media war is
now being waged against the ACLU and other free-expression advocates for
defending freedom of expression in this case. Few reporters seem even
interested in finding out the contents of NAMBLA literature or the
contents of the web site as of 10/97. But even if a fair-minded reporter
did have this interest, he or she would be out of luck. Printed material
from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will speak to the
press only under conditions of strict anonymity because they fear for
their lives. And the web site is not accessible.

I am not a NAMBLA member, but I believe that the First Amendment applies
to them. I have obtained the web files as of 10/97. I don't wish to put
them up myself for a variety of reasons. First of all, my ISP might make
me take them down. Also, I am involved in another case which I don't
want tarred with the NAMBLA brush. There is no court injunction against
the publication of the materials. But a site outside the US might be
best in any case.

Anyway, if you can help me find someone to take the files and put them
up, please let me know.




From 72774 at COMPUSERVE.COM  Tue Sep 12 20:39:59 2000
From: 72774 at COMPUSERVE.COM (B-Square Publishing Co.)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:39:59 -0400
Subject: CDR: Win $2,000.00
Message-ID: <200009130334.XAA12883@sphmraaa.compuserve.com>

Win $2,000.00 in spending money and a four day three night trip to Las 
Vegas for two. Read all four W.G. Goldstein's novels and solve the mystery 
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or online at:
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  The Goldstein Novel's are:
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The Roommate - ISBN 0-9672756-5-2
Classmate - ISBN 0-9672756-6-0
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This message is sent in compliance with the new email bill:
Section 301, para (a) (2) (C) of S. 1618.
sender Info: P.O. Box 44941, Wash. DC 20026.
If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply with the subject 
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From edouvarjo at webtv.net  Tue Sep 12 20:50:40 2000
From: edouvarjo at webtv.net (eileen douvarjo)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:50:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: KERSHOFF
Message-ID: <25250-39BEF990-14168@storefull-105.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Searching SS# for John/Jacob Kershoff, 
lived 1940-1950's onStaten Island, N.Y.
Been told his name was JAY, could be nickname. Died before 1995,  he was
married to Margaret Whitehead and had two children.
He was an officer in the US Navy during WW11. Thank you.
Eileen Douvarjo




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 22:01:10 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:01:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, petro wrote:

> >Ask yourself this, how could a fugitive who is wanted for several bombings
> >stay un-found for four years? He certainly isn't working by himself and
> >there is considerable funding available clearly.
> 
> 	The system is structured to catch criminals using the same 
> "MO" and stupid people (often one in the same).

If it was only that simple. There is no indication the guy was a rocket
scientist. He is a bomber who was bombing for a 'cause'. We are not
talking a simple bank robber using some dynamite expeditiously. We're
talking cold, calculating, confident.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 22:05:34 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:05:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, petro wrote:

> He of the CDR tag wrote:
> >>  On the cynical side: maybe the feds shouldn't be putting child care
> >>  facilities in potential terrorist targets.  (Really cynical: maybe
> >>  it was intended as a human shield.)
> >
> >Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.
> 
> 	It is quite likely that the people in position to make that 
> decision did not have their own children in that facility.

???

Each parent was in a position to make that decision. It was the regional
headquarters for several agencies, it was by definition the place where
such decisions are made. I do not know if the particular individuals who
ok'ed the decision to allow it in the building actualy had or have kids.
However,  to limit the scope of this to only the location decision is an 
unreasonably narrow definition of responsibility in what happened.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Tue Sep 12 21:06:52 2000
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:06:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: gun permits
Message-ID: 

On 13 Sep 2000, Anonymous wrote:

> I'm somewhat amused by the irony of the Canadian government
> advertisements to register early for gun ownership permits
> interspersed between the dramatization of the Neurenberg trials.

What advertisements??




From jeff at scrollbar.com  Tue Sep 12 21:26:20 2000
From: jeff at scrollbar.com (Jeff Kandt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:26:20 -0400
Subject: Tipster voluntary payment protocol
Message-ID: 

I've just posted a new and improved description of my voluntary
payment protocol:

Tipster technical overview
http://tipster.weblogs.com/stories/storyReader$180

Comments are welcome.

Also, check out the front page which, if I do say so myself, is
becoming a pretty good chronicle of music business greed and the
search for better ways...

http://tipster.weblogs.com/

-Jeff
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Jeff Kandt         |  Voluntary Payments: A Napster-friendly  business  |
|jeff at scrollbar.com |  model for musicians. http://tipster.weblogs.com   |
|[PGP Pub key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6CE51904 |
|              or send a message with the subject "send pgp key"]        |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at reservoir.com" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From declan at well.com  Tue Sep 12 21:31:29 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:31:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
In-Reply-To: <200009122144.RAA03630@www2.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:44:32PM -0400
References: <200009122144.RAA03630@www2.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <20000913003129.A23851@cluebot.com>

Interesting. I'm behind on stuff, having come back recently from two
weeks at Burning Man and in SF, and organizing my patent expiration
party. I'm only skimming threads right now. --Declan


On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:44:32PM -0400, George at orwellian.org wrote:
> Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs
> in received email to proxy through their server, meaning
> they had logs of all URLs you visited when clicking on
> hyperlinks while reading your personal email.
> 
> That this violates their own privacy policy.
> 
> For some reason Declan failed to report it. ;-)
> Analog film chemicals must be affecting his judgement.
> 
> New note: if you bookmark the URL in the personal email someone
> sent you, it bookmarks it at the USA.net address.
> 
> ----
> 
> Here is the resulting URL in the new window USA.net opens
> when you click on an URL in your email:
> 
> http://www.netaddress.com/tpl/Info/Popup?hidden___url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F
> 
> I just tried scooping it and using it directly, trying amazon here.
> 
> It worked.
> 
> Anyone have direct access to their own server logs?
> What cookies/referrals/misc is logged on the receiving system?
> 
> Continue clicking, and it's still via USA.net.
> 
> It looks like a free "anonymizer" to me.
> 




From webmaster at troppolotto.com  Tue Sep 12 17:51:50 2000
From: webmaster at troppolotto.com (TroppoLotto)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 00:51:50 -0000
Subject: CDR: Personal Note from TroppoLotto's CEO
Message-ID: <20000913005150.3999.qmail@qm-3.troppolotto.com>

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Everyday, I receive many emails from TroppoLotto players saying how much fun
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you are making this site a success.

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CEO
P.S.
As always, your privacy is our utmost concern. Please visit our
http://www.troppolotto.com/privacy.php3 if you have any questions.
@ Copyright 2000 Trancos, Inc. / All Rights Reserved.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep 13 00:57:57 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:57:57 -0700
Subject: CDR: RECYCLED CPUNKS MESSAGES APPEARING FROM INFONEX
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913005757.00904d80@idiom.com>

I'm starting to see a number of old cypherpunks messages
reappearing from  sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [216.34.245.2]).
I'm not sure if they're going to everybody on cypherpunks (unlikely),
or everybody who uses the cyberpass.net majordomo,
or if it's just infonex clearing out undelivered stuff to my ISP.

Either way, if you start seeing topics that we covered a week or two ago,
maybe it's because of mail problems, so check the date.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Tue Sep 12 22:29:04 2000
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:29:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: [PGP:] Are you all this Blind? [Resent.]
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000913012904.00953848@mail.internet-95.com>

-=|=-

CP: This message was distributed from Algebra.com as NULL content back on
Sunday, 27 August, 2000. It, and postant null and erred content from
various nodes triggered questions over the last week, numerous admins have
checked on the issue of problems, apparently. [There have been no changes
to this text since the original post, simply re-sent now. -WLG]

-=|=-

[PGP]: Are you all this blind?

Regarding the "New Realization" of the PGP "fixes"...

This short denouncement of performance is directed to all those of
semi-competence and awareness and understanding of the reality. 
For the rest of "us" sheep, Let "us" learn from 'their' mistakes.

I do not know who in their right mind --who actually comprehends the basis
of _this_ intellectual environment and the surrounding realities in which
we operate-- could possibly not comprehend the legitimacy and security
issues surrounding the PGP projects after the fixes were introduced.

As we *ALL* _SHOULD_ know, PGP releases prior the original release of 2.6.2
and (there may be a legitimate interim version, however its life span was
limited) prior the introduction of external influences and the release of
the 5.*+ series and the replaced 2.6.2 distributions, are the only
semi-secure and legitimate releases of the PGP algos/code.

You should ALSO know that all versions 5.*+ are severely defective, and
altered versions of 2.* replaced legitimate public distributions of 2.*
during the same time frame.

I will refuse to accept the apparent "realization" that is currently
circulating the public media.

Are those of you on this list, and involved in any and all related fields,
claiming to be so blind sighted that *YOU* did not notice the variance in
code, that *YOU* did not "bother" to examine or check the totally faulted
releases of anything from these sources after the fixes? 

Are *YOU* going to tell us that you "didn't notice" the variance in code
structures in the server-distributed versions of 2.6.2 releases immediately
after the fixing? Nor any of the more obvious transitions?

Granted, although for obvious reasons, no one immediately put up alarms due
to their full comprehension of the situations the PGP project was faced
with during this time period... BUT... Why is it only NOW, _years_later_,
that it is such a revelation? 

Why is it only now that there is a release of a statement of
common-knowledge reality? Or is the fact that no one with any comprehension
or ability to recognise the issues bothered to elucidate the reality to the
rest of the world?

This is the epitome of failure, on one of many fronts.

I am thoroughly disappointed that the current public understanding of the
PGP code and algos has thought it to be stable and legitimate encryption,
especially when there are thousands+ of individuals capable of simple
review that *SHOULD* have looked at the code upon release and prior their
use. How many did? Most. And?

Now, how many PGP sigs in this list (and others) are explicitly tag lined
with a statement resembling "2.6.2 _ORIGINAL_ PGP" or similar?

I will continue to refuse to believe that we have gone (for how many
years?) failing to exhibit the faulted PGP versions circulating publicly
and no one publicly questioning it?

Granted, the sheep are supposed to be dumb for a reason, but, in this
regard, has anyone ever bothered to teach them a more complex "baah!" ?

Or, are we to assume that our friendly spooks have failed so miserably that
only now have they created a computational system capable of analysing the
real PGP systems? This would be a statement of pathetic failure on their
behalf... I would expect the damned spooks to at least know how to run
simple (untraditional) numerics on data sets and not have any problem with
any common-use encryption to date... How can they fail so miserably? [This
assumes the common "let the sheep 'baah' after we have countered it"
mentality...]

Generally, I feel this is a pathetic failure on the part of all competent
individuals who most certainly analysed and reviewed the code and noticed
the blatant flaws many years ago (yes, they are blatantly obvious), yet
*CHOOSE* to *NEVER* elucidate this reality to the common environment?

-

Let us take this awareness and insight ("Learn from your Mistakes and
Failures") so that we do not consistently allow this type of global
stupidity to propagate for _SO_LONG_ without cross-checks... Please.

I bid you good wishes on your quest for intellectual freedom, yet also
distribute cynical remarks to all of "us" who FAILED to audience the simple
reality and stir the crowds years ago in this excessively basic issue...
What about all the others?

-Wilfred L. Guerin
Wilfred at Cryogen.com



[You really expect a PGP sig here?]



-=|=-


---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: John Young 
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:25:20 -0400

>
>Cryptome offers the ADK bug-fix PGP Freeware 6.5.8:







From twoday at freeatlast.com  Wed Sep 13 01:45:08 2000
From: twoday at freeatlast.com (twoday at freeatlast.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:45:08
Subject: CDR: AD:Family Reunion T Shirts & More
Message-ID: <453.784579.828674@freeatlast.com>

Message sent by:  Kuppler Graphics, 32 West Main Street, Maple 
Shade, New Jersey, 08052,
1-800-810-4330.   This list will NOT be sold.  All addresses 
are automatically added to our remove list.

Hello.  My name is Bill from Kuppler Graphics.  We do 
screenprinting on T Shirts, Sweatshirts,
Jackets, Hats, Tote Bags and more!

Do you or someone you know have a Family Reunion coming up?  
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provide you with some great looking T Shirts for your Reunion.

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Please call toll free 1-800-810-4330 if the reply to email is 
down for a quote or to
discuss your screenprinting needs 

Bill
Kuppler Graphics
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Sep 12 23:08:41 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 02:08:41 -0400
Subject: CDR: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
In-Reply-To: <9a12e15191b5498d0c6a96bd9875054c@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 anonymous at openpgp.net wrote:

>Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>> safer, cleaner place but calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the
>> mark. 0 points for that one. 
>
>Why?

Interesting question, actually...  The difference between a 
"random crazy" and a "freedom fighter" can be awfully dang 
thin.  I think that in order to qualify as a "freedom fighter" 
there has to be a significant faction who support your actions 
and a nonzero chance of bringing about real change.

Mcveigh, as he is, is just a random crazy.  But if, say, one 
out of ten American Citizens or so had looked up from the news 
story and gone, "It's about time somebody started fighting those 
bastards" then he'd have a constituency to whom he could be a 
freedom fighter.  And also a nonzero chance of causing real 
change.  

Not a bit of difference in his own actions -- but the context 
in which his actions took place -- and his decision to make 
exactly those actions in that context -- make him a random nut 
rather than a freedom fighter.  

It's just my opinion.  But that's how I see it.  Freedom 
fighters do what they do because they have constituency 
whose interests they are fighting for and a realistic 
belief that the fight will change something.  I think these 
were lacking in Mcveigh's case. 

				Bear








From bear at sonic.net  Tue Sep 12 23:18:19 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 02:18:19 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: VISA to smartcard the US
In-Reply-To: <25091dc6fdad8c13970116f045daa308@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 



Hmmm.  These devices could be useful, even without using 
them as credit cards.  I wonder if you could buy a batch 
of them from the manufacturer with custom software installed? 

It would sure be nice if I could make a physical key token 
that would render my system completely useless if the key 
were, say, in my wallet at work, and the computer found its 
way to, say, the hands of someone carrying out an illegal 
search and seizure.  

likewise it would be nice to store PGP keys on, etc -- bits 
of data that you want to maintain complete physical control 
of at all times. 

"Oppression is sometimes best fought with the tools that 
the oppressors have built for their own use." 

I want a PGPdisk you can boot from.

				Bear


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, A. Melon wrote:

>Sep 12, 2000 - 07:27 PM 
>
>            Visa USA to Launch Smart Card in
>            the U.S. 
>            The Associated Press
>
>            NEW YORK (AP) - After success with its smart card in
>            Europe and Japan, Visa is aiming squarely at the U.S.
>            market with an upgraded version that contains more
>            memory. 
>
>            Over the next couple of weeks, Visa USA, the
>            companys U.S. division, will be launching smart cards
>            - microprocessors embedded in plastic -that will offer
>            prepackaged services to be determined by its issuers. 
>
>            Customers will be able to download information from
>            their computers via special card readers. Over the next
>            year or so, they will be able to store airline tickets, for
>            example, and eventually use the cards as keys to their
>            cars and homes. 
>
>            The card, which has 32 kilobytes of memory, is
>            different from Visas original version, which has mainly
>            served as a "monetary value card," said Al Banisch,
>            senior vice president of consumer credit products. 
>
>            The new card will be available free to Visas 350
>            million cardholders. 
>
>





From MAILER-DAEMON at venon.com  Wed Sep 13 00:00:56 2000
From: MAILER-DAEMON at venon.com (Mail Delivery System)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:00:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender
Message-ID: <20000913070056.27D55D144F@ns1.venon.com>

This is the Postfix program at host ns1.venon.com.

I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned
below could not be delivered to one or more destinations.

For further assistance, please contact 

If you do so, please include this problem report. You can
delete your own text from the message returned below.

			The Postfix program

<72774 at venon.com>: unknown user: "72774"

-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 38
URL: 

From cypherpunks at toad.com  Wed Sep 13 00:01:08 2000
From: cypherpunks at toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:01:08 -0400
Subject: Remove
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913030054.00b124e0@mail.megapathdsl.net>



--E1B38D144E.968828456/ns1.venon.com--




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 00:11:34 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:11:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net>

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> [A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. Any
> offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume they'll be duly
> forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in question here would last on
> a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]
> 
> ---
> 
> Hi Declan,
> 
> I know you're aware of the case of Curley v. NAMBLA, which has very
> serious First Amendment implications. Jeffrey Curley was a 10-year-old
> who was murdered in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in October of 1997. The
> parents are alleging that the murderers were driven by NAMBLA literature
> in general and specifically by the contents of NAMBLA's web site. After
> the suit was filed in May of this year, the current NAMBLA web site was
> taken down.
> 
> Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and false
> statements about what was on the web site. Because the media has no
> access to the site, no one can contradict him. A vicious media war is
> now being waged against the ACLU and other free-expression advocates for
> defending freedom of expression in this case. Few reporters seem even
> interested in finding out the contents of NAMBLA literature or the
> contents of the web site as of 10/97. But even if a fair-minded reporter
> did have this interest, he or she would be out of luck. Printed material
> from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will speak to the
> press only under conditions of strict anonymity because they fear for
> their lives. And the web site is not accessible.
> 
> I am not a NAMBLA member, but I believe that the First Amendment applies
> to them. I have obtained the web files as of 10/97. I don't wish to put
> them up myself for a variety of reasons. First of all, my ISP might make
> me take them down. Also, I am involved in another case which I don't
> want tarred with the NAMBLA brush. There is no court injunction against
> the publication of the materials. But a site outside the US might be
> best in any case.
> 
> Anyway, if you can help me find someone to take the files and put them
> up, please let me know.

	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really 
are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you 
would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to 
preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their 
son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from 
happening again.
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From 000ymao at china.com  Wed Sep 13 03:17:43 2000
From: 000ymao at china.com (000ymao at china.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:17:43
Subject: CDR: Accepting Credit Cards??.??
Message-ID: <50.652293.423277@china.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3521 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 00:30:13 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:30:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 2:08 AM -0400 9/13/00, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>Interesting question, actually...  The difference between a
>"random crazy" and a "freedom fighter" can be awfully dang
>thin.  I think that in order to qualify as a "freedom fighter"
>there has to be a significant faction who support your actions
>and a nonzero chance of bringing about real change.

This is not a terribly interesting line of analysis.

I use "freedom fighter" in nearly all contexts in which the dominant 
paradigm uses the word "terrorist."

Consider some of the many thousands of examples:

* Those who blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 
1947-8...terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

* Those who blew up the Air Cubana airliner off the coast of Florida 
in the late 60s... terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

* Those who blew up an aspirin factory in Khartoum... terrorists, 
freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

* Those who blew up police stations in Northern Ireland... 
terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

* Those who blew up British soldiers and their families garrisoned in 
New England in 1776... terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random 
crazies"?

* Those who laid mines in a harbor in Nicaragua so that commercial 
ships would be blown up, even though no state of war existed... 
terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"? (BTW, done by the 
same nice folks who taught the secret police how to torture and kill, 
how to assassinate political opponents, and how to rig elections.)

* Those who blew up the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983... 
terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

I think it's obvious that the "random crazy" analysis is flawed. Even 
the Unabomber was political. Perhaps the "Mad Bomber" of several 
decades ago was a "random crazy," but the actions of Baader-Meinhof, 
Red Army Faction, Cuban exile community, IRA, CIA, and so on, are 
clearly political. If McVeigh's actions were not political, nothing 
is. Whether one agrees or disagrees, his actions were politically 
motivated (and with various links I won't get into here with Elohim 
City, the German government, and dissident factions in the USG).

I thought it unexceptionable that I would use the standard shorthand 
of referring to a "terrorist" by a more descriptive name.

If they're our bombers, they're freedom fighters. If they're the 
other guy's bombers, they're terrorists.

The Hezbollah guerillas who offed a couple of hundred of U.S. Marines 
in Beirut in 1983 were dubbed "terrorists" by U.S. sources and U.S. 
reporters. Absurd. By any even slightly objective analysis, this was 
a military action. Yeah, some "innocents" died...some chambermaids, 
the children of the housekeepers and front desk clerks who were 
playing while their parents worked, gardeners and handymen, the usual 
bunch of innocents.

Just as innocents died when the U.S. firebombed Dresden and Tokyo. 
Just as when the U.S., in a battle which was not part of a declared 
war, routinely napalmed villages in Viet Nam and killed obvious 
nonparticipants (children, for example).

War is hell. The Federal Building in OKC was, to McVeigh and to many 
others, a military target.

Get used to it. Strong, untraceable crypto means the capability for 
coordinating far more impressive attacks.

And learn to deconstruct the underlying meaning of words like "terrorist."

If some "sand niggers" in Palestine fight back to keep Polish and 
French Jews from stealing their land, they're "terrorists." If 
Menachem Begin and the Stern Gang and similar gangs blow up a hotel 
filled with British soldiers trying to stop this theft from 
occurring, these Jews are hailed as noble freedom fighters.

Understand and internalize the reality that "terrorists," "freedom 
fighters," and "random crazies" are just loaded terms, set by masters 
of spin.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From nobody at remailer.ch  Tue Sep 12 20:31:24 2000
From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 03:31:24 -0000
Subject: CDR: gun permits
Message-ID: <13074a92ca7e1c47f5eb07fc4705d216@remailer.ch>


I'm somewhat amused by the irony of the Canadian government
advertisements to register early for gun ownership permits
interspersed between the dramatization of the Neurenberg trials.

I wonder what proportion of the sheeple even noticed the irony.

(The nazi's instituted gun ownership laws soon after they came to
power).

GunMonger




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep 13 01:09:55 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:09:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: MPAA thinks linking is illegal
References: <20000830160846.D7597@ils.unc.edu> <39AD6FE5.12EA2AA7@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <39BF3596.37D74B76@ricardo.de>

Steven Furlong wrote:
> > Now, the MPAA is trying to force me to remove a LINK to the code from
> > my class page.  This is enough to make me want to throw up.
> 
> Can you simply remove the  tag, but leave the address in as text?
> The reader would still be able to see where to go, but it wouldn't be a
> _link_.

this is what 2600 is trying.
most likely, the MPAA will get THAT disallowed. my guess is that 2600
will next *spell out* the links "double-u, double-u, double-u, dot, ..."

in a year or so, just thinking about decss will be illegal.





From cab8 at censored.org  Wed Sep 13 01:17:04 2000
From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol Braddock)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:17:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am saddened to learn of a child murder.
I am saddened to learn that NAMBLA lost their website.
I am saddened to learn that Jodi Hoffman still can't read very well.

Carol Anne Cypherpunk

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I am not a NAMBLA member, but I believe that the First Amendment applies
> to them. > 

	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really 
are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you 
would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to 
preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their 
son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from 
happening again.
- -- 


Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.0
Comment: The ArtCall is over 65% complete.

iQA/AwUBOb83EKC5l40tbJY2EQLp8QCg0/LPll9URa3+Rs+KZJSxCJCJS2AAoN1D
oaNv96nHKRnvYJP+5NnQi24c
=xdCu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From Alainthuot at aol.com  Wed Sep 13 03:25:15 2000
From: Alainthuot at aol.com (Alainthuot at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 06:25:15 EDT
Subject: CDR: Nostradamus' prophecy for 1999 : finally the truth !
Message-ID: 



Hello !

Your site talk about Nostradamus. 

I'm very sorry but in quatrain X 72, Nostradamus didn't talk about Mongols, 
Cassini, comets, wars, eclipses, JFK, the Antichrist, or Osiris !

If you want to learn the truth about Nostradamus' prophecy for 1999, there's 
a good address :
http://members.aol.com/AlainThuot/e_nostra2.htm

Nostradamus' prophecy came completely true : the final explanation of the 
quatrain word by word !

Now, the truth is at last available in English ! + en français  + em português

(I can read an email in english but I can't reply in english because I don't 
speak english. It's not me who made the translation in english on my site. I 
can reply in french if you want.)

//_________________________________
On my site, you can read too :

1998 : a World Cup shrouded in mystery
 > Learn all about the mysterious coincidences which lined the way of the 
French during the 1998 World Cup (soccer)

The storm of December 26, 1999
 > Why didn't the media warn the French ?

//_________________________________


Thanks,

Alain Thuot

*************************************************
AlainThuot at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/AlainThuot/accueil.htm
*************************************************




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Sep 13 06:47:02 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 06:47:02 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>

At 03:11 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
>throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
>well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really 
>are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you 
>would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to 
>preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their 
>son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from 
>happening again.

Ah, the fascists rise to the bait!

Freedom of speech is a moral absolute. The words of NAMBLA are as
important, and about as morally sound, as the words of Jodi Hoffman. And,
IMO, about as likely to cause a murder.




From sales at edgar-online.com  Wed Sep 13 07:18:32 2000
From: sales at edgar-online.com (EDGAR Online Customer Support)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:18:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: EDGAR Online - Confirmation Email
Message-ID: <200009131418.HAA11417@toad.com>


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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep 13 04:35:01 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:35:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: SF Internet self-defense course
In-Reply-To: <39AB9A6A.49DA34B2@ricardo.de>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000831005246.007ce5c0@idiom.com>

At 01:11 PM 8/29/00 +0200, Tom Vogt wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> >are you required to provide your private keys to an enemy (e.g. someone
>> >who is sueing you) ?
..
>> I expect 95% or more of all encryption is done at the transport
>> layer, i.e., for transmission. Most peoplee, I surmise, keep their
>> original compositions in unencrypted form and their decrypted
>> transmissions in that form, too. The perceived threat model is for
>> interception by ISPs, snoops, and government agencies.
>
>that's where good software comes in. mutt, for example, stores the
>received encrypted mail - well, encrypted. decryption is done when you
>view the mail. also, encrypted mails you send are encrypted twice - once
>with the receipient's key and sent to him, once with your key for your
>"outbox" archive.

The Eudora PGP Plug-In deliberately decrypts received mail 
and stores it unencrypted, specifically to discourage the
"You must escrow your private keys so we can decode your plaintext"
attacks that the FBI/NSA/WhiteHouse anti-crypto mafia were pushing
a couple of years ago.  That's a different issue from storing your
mailbox in a PGPdisk volume or some other encrypted filesystem
or having the mail decryptor re-encrypt for storage with a different key
(which wouldn't be that hard, since you could use a different
public key to encrypt the session key and leave the symmetric-encrypted 
part of the message alone.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Tue Sep 12 22:53:12 2000
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:53:12 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re:  KERSHOFF
Message-ID: 

> Searching SS# for John/Jacob Kershoff, 
> lived 1940-1950's onStaten Island, N.Y.
> Been told his name was JAY, could be nickname. Died before 1995,  he was
> married to Margaret Whitehead and had two children.
> He was an officer in the US Navy during WW11. Thank you.
> Eileen Douvarjo

Try:
http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/ssdi/main.htm




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Sep 13 08:09:28 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:09:28 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913080928.03958e70@mrlizard.com>

At 10:56 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>
>	Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and 
>murderers.  

Nope, only to the support of those who advocate it, just like I support
your right to free speech. I daresay you're much more dangerous to children
than any NAMBLA member could ever be. All they want is a childs body. You
want to destroy their soul.

>Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First 
>Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel 
>differently.

I support the right of people to post recipes for stir-fried cat on their
web pages. It's disgusting, but it's their right. If they tried ACTING on
such impulses, of course, they'd discover why we have a SECOND amendment...




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 13 05:20:42 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:20:42 -0400
Subject: Tipster voluntary payment protocol
Message-ID: 


--- begin forwarded text



From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 13 05:27:21 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:27:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: "Imminent Lawless Action" (was Re: GigaLaw.com Daily News,
 September 13, 2000)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 4:44 AM -0700 on 9/13/00, GigaLaw.com wrote:


> [FREE SPEECH]
> Antiabortion Activists Seek Reversal of Award Against Site
>      Antiabortion activists are asking a federal appeals court to overturn
> a $109 million verdict by a jury that decided a Web site and posters
> listing the names of abortion doctors and clinics were threats that went
> beyond free speech. The case is widely seen as a test of a Supreme Court
> ruling that defined a threat as explicit language likely to cause
> "imminent lawless action" -- and a measure of how far antiabortion
> activists can go in harassing doctors and clinics.
>      Read the article: The Wall Street Journal @
> http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB968782868719953428.htm

-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From colin at xemacs.org  Wed Sep 13 05:57:54 2000
From: colin at xemacs.org (Colin Rafferty)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 08:57:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: Jodi Hoffman's message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:11:34 -0400"
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

Jodi Hoffman writes:
> Declan McCullagh forwards:

>> Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and
>> false statements about what was on the web site. Because the media
>> has no access to the site, no one can contradict him. ... Printed
>> material from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will
>> speak to the press only under conditions of strict anonymity
>> because they fear for their lives. And the web site is not
>> accessible.

> 	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
> throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
> well as their attorney.  

I think that would be an excellent idea.  The best thing for this case
would be to see what was actually on the web site.

Of course, I would suggest showing it to everyone, and not just the
Curley family lawyers.  Because of NAMBLA had nothing to do with the
murder, I'm sure you wouldn't want to see them falsely found liable.

> I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important
> you think it is to preserve the information put out by the people
> who helped cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing
> something to help prevent it from happening again.

So your printouts of the NAMBLA web site show where they encourage
people to rape and/or murder children?

Do you have any quotes?

> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy

Always a good quote.  So what is the truth about what was on the
NAMBLA web site?  Yell it from the rooftops.

-- 
Colin




From vlado at yaxoo.com  Tue Sep 12 23:10:52 2000
From: vlado at yaxoo.com (Vladimir Banishky)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:10:52 +0300
Subject: CDR: www.yaxoo.com
Message-ID: 

 Win up to $10,000 - just visit http://www.yaxoo.com




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 09:42:02 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:42:02 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: 

At 11:27 AM -0400 9/13/00, Jay Holovacs wrote:
>You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
>same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
>advocate violence to children)
>
>Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
>protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
>murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
>

Actually, the tide of civil lawsuits against all sorts of 
organizations is rising. Aryan Nations was just ordered to pay some 
multimillion dollar fee because some woman was harassed or attacked 
or had her feelings hurt--not sure which--by some people she claimed 
were connected to or influenced by AN.

I watched noted spinster Alan Dershowitz expostulating that lawsuits 
to bankrupt Aryan Nation are _good_, becuase AN espouses hate, but 
that lawsuits against NAMBLA are _bad_, for some reason I didn't 
stick around long enough to hear.

This issue of lawsuits about speech is a terribly important one. It 
tends to get lost in the debate when people say "But the _government_ 
is not suppressing speech!"

Actually, it _is_. By court decisions, by even letting such lawsuits 
go forward, it is supporting such suppressions of speech. "SLAPP" 
suits are another example.

("Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation," as when a lumber 
company slaps a civil lawsuit on a critic of their logging 
operations. Even the _filing_ of a lawsuit essentially forces the 
target to hire his own $400 an hour lawyers. (Yeah, I know what 
Duncan would say: "Throw the subpoena away. Make yourself 
judgement-proof. Ignore the matter." Well, nice theory, hard in 
practice for anyone with real assets.)_

We as a culture have swung far away from "sticks and stones may break 
my bones but names will never hurt me" toward a culture of lawsuits. 
And the lawyer lobby supports and embraces this culture, getting laws 
passed making it easier every day to suppress speech.

Crypto helps in various ways, of course. Both Aryan Nations and 
NAMBLA will be helped, along with Friends of the Earth and Pacific 
Lumber.

Censorious bitches like Jodi Hoffman will splutter.

--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 13 06:59:23 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:59:23 -0400
Subject: CDR: Bioterror in DC: Banning production of such weapons
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000913095901.023d7f00@mail.well.com>


HOUSE GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE
Biological Weapons Convention
National Security, Veterans Affairs, and International Relations Subcommittee
hearing to examine the status of negotiations to develop an enforcement
protocol to the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) prohibiting the
development, production and stockpiling of such weapons.
Witnesses: Ambassador Donald Mahley, special negotiator,
     Chemical and Biological Arms Control, State
     Department; representatives from General Accounting
     Office, Defense Department, and Commerce Department
Location: 2154 Rayburn House Office Building. 10 a.m.
Contact: 202-225-5074 http://www.house.gov/reform




From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Wed Sep 13 08:02:36 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:02:36 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
Message-ID: 

Ray said:

> Mcveigh, as he is, is just a random crazy.  But if, say, one 
> out of ten American Citizens or so had looked up from the news 
> story and gone, "It's about time somebody started fighting those 
> bastards" then he'd have a constituency to whom he could be a 
> freedom fighter.  And also a nonzero chance of causing real 
> change.   

    And just what is it that makes you think that "one out of ten" 
didn't secretly cheer that news? Or maybe more? And even if it were
only "one out a thousand", isn't that a significant number? Even in
the First American Revolution, not that many actually took up arms.
Many were totally against it, and fought for the Brits. If one in
a thousand took up arms today against the fedz, wouldn't that out-
number the US military?




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep 13 01:07:55 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:07:55 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Internet Drivers License
References: <200008311607.JAA18480@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <39BF35DB.28C4878C@ricardo.de>

jfanonymous at yahoo.com wrote:
>      That sounds like censorship to me.
>      Way to restrictive, kinda like COPPA aka Children Loose
> their Right to Free Speech Online (CLRFSO), a voilation of the
> first ammendment and of the Universal Declaration of Human
> Rights.

yeah, but let's give the guy a little sympathy. raise your hands if
you've never thought that the idiots should be thrown out upon contact
with a homo aol-us.




From support at edgar-online.com  Wed Sep 13 07:11:01 2000
From: support at edgar-online.com (support at edgar-online.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:11:01 EDT
Subject: CDR: EDGAR Online - Here is the Information You Requested
Message-ID: <200009131420.HAA11443@toad.com>

Your EDGAR Online (http://www.edgar-online.com) username and password are
case-sensitive and must be entered exactly as they are shown here.

Username: Cyperpunks  
Password: cypherpunks 

You can upgrade your current EDGAR Online Visitor Registration using these
identifiers at http://www.edgar-online.com/user_upgrade.asp.

If you have any questions email support at edgar-online.com or phone
1-800-416-6651 (203-852-5666) Monday - Friday, 9:00AM - 7:30PM EST.

EDGAR Online




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 10:15:36 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:15:36 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Bioterror in DC: Banning production of such weapons
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000913095901.023d7f00@mail.well.com>
References: <4.3.0.20000913095901.023d7f00@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 

At 9:59 AM -0400 9/13/00, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>HOUSE GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE
>Biological Weapons Convention
>National Security, Veterans Affairs, and International Relations Subcommittee
>hearing to examine the status of negotiations to develop an enforcement
>protocol to the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) prohibiting the
>development, production and stockpiling of such weapons.
>Witnesses: Ambassador Donald Mahley, special negotiator,
>     Chemical and Biological Arms Control, State
>     Department; representatives from General Accounting
>     Office, Defense Department, and Commerce Department


We've seen several such "bans." The bans are used to suppress 
civilian research, forcing those doing biological research to come 
under the aegis of Ft. Detrick, NRDD, the facilities in Utah, 
Oakland, CA, Atlanta, etc.

The George C. Scott film, "Rage," is a good one. Done in 1972 or so, 
it accurately captures the way Big Brother claims to have a monopoly 
on the contents of Pandora's Box. (To mix some myths.)

(Side note: I worked in an immunology lab in 1969-70 and saw 
first-hand the manouverings to get the private sector absorbed as a 
contractor--with gubmint as arbiter of what got published and what 
didn't--into the "biowarfare-industrial complex." And one of my high 
school friends is now a senior researcher in "northern Maryland." 
Hint hint.)

The supposed bans on CBW are mainly used to lull John and Mary 
Citizen into a false sense of security. Read Laurie Garrett's "Final 
Plague" (I think is the title) or Ken Alimbek's "Biohazard" for some 
good accounts. A readable, but not great, fictional treatment is 
Preston's "Cobra Event." Frank Herbert's "The White Plague" is as 
timely as it was in the 70s.

These kinds of CBW bans, such as the one above, will mainly be used 
to fan the flames of public hysteria that "bio hackers" are buying 
samples of Ebola or smallpox, whatever, and that the Web must come 
under government control so as to stop Little Johnny from hacking 
bugs in his mother's kitchen.

As usual, governments and their affiliated biological-industrial 
partners will continue expanding their inventory and library of 
deadly diseases to loose upon the world.

Pouring out the vials, as it were.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Sep 13 07:41:34 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:41:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: MPAA honeypot (Re: MPAA thinks linking is illegal [cpunk]
Message-ID: 

[I'm seeing a *large* number of messages yesterday 
and today which apparently have sat on some spool 
for around 2 weeks. In some cases, responses to 
these messages got through rapidly, but the original 
did not.]

> ----------
> David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com] writes:
> At 04:09 PM 8/30/00 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> >I was forced to remove my copy of the DeCSS code this spring by UNC as
> >a result of a complaint by the MPAA.
> 
> First, You have the right to contest any copyright infringement they
> allege to your ISP (UNC in this case).  Second, linking isn't copyright
> infringement.
> 
	[...]
> or confuse them: 
> 
> Post DeCSS under a different file name, possibly changing the .zip
> to avoid recognition by filesize.  Include enough text on your page
> to help the search engines.  (will the next MPAA target be search
> engines, which will be prohibited from indexing DeCSS?)
	[...]

Last weekend, someone spammed the DeCSS code to all or most
of the the comp.* usenet newsgroups. Deja has already removed all
of the original posts, but not messages which quote the original - for
example, the post noting this as a spam event contains the entire
source, and is still up. 

[It's possible that the posting had an x-no-archive header, but I doubt
it]

Peter






From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep 13 01:44:06 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:44:06 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
	 <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de> 
Message-ID: <39BF3E56.A2F4F81E@ricardo.de>

petro wrote:
> >sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. this is an
> >economic puzzle, not a political one. food, clothes, tobacco, gas/petrol
> 
>         Then you neither understand politics, or economics.

one was part of my study, the other not.


>         And no, I don't claim to either, but as near as I can tell
> there isn't a  spits worth of difference between economics and
> politics.

I do believe there is. a market is more difficult to buy than a
politician, for one.


>         Food maybe, but tobacco and gas are both things that *can* be
> done without.

in theory. in real life, consumption does NOT change a tiny bit with
price changes. there's a (largely theoretical) cut-off point, where
consumption suddenly drops to or near zero after a certain price, but
I'm not aware of any events where this actually happened.




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 07:56:12 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:56:12 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>

Lizard wrote:
> 
> At 03:11 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> >       I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website
> >throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as
> >well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really
> >are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you
> >would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to
> >preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their
> >son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from
> >happening again.
> 
> Ah, the fascists rise to the bait!
> 
> Freedom of speech is a moral absolute. The words of NAMBLA are as
> important, and about as morally sound, as the words of Jodi Hoffman. And,
> IMO, about as likely to cause a murder.

	Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and 
murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First 
Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel 
differently.

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 08:01:15 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:01:15 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <39BF96BB.3D4C@attglobal.net>

Colin Rafferty wrote:
> 
> Jodi Hoffman writes:
> > Declan McCullagh forwards:
> 
> >> Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and
> >> false statements about what was on the web site. Because the media
> >> has no access to the site, no one can contradict him. ... Printed
> >> material from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will
> >> speak to the press only under conditions of strict anonymity
> >> because they fear for their lives. And the web site is not
> >> accessible.
> 
> >       I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website
> > throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as
> > well as their attorney.
> 
> I think that would be an excellent idea.  The best thing for this case
> would be to see what was actually on the web site.
> 
> Of course, I would suggest showing it to everyone, and not just the
> Curley family lawyers.  Because of NAMBLA had nothing to do with the
> murder, I'm sure you wouldn't want to see them falsely found liable.
> 
> > I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important
> > you think it is to preserve the information put out by the people
> > who helped cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing
> > something to help prevent it from happening again.
> 
> So your printouts of the NAMBLA web site show where they encourage
> people to rape and/or murder children?
> 
> Do you have any quotes?
> 
> > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> 
> Always a good quote.  So what is the truth about what was on the
> NAMBLA web site?  Yell it from the rooftops.
> 
> --
> Colin

	"Yell it from the rooftops." Colin, you devil, you read the 
Bible?
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Wed Sep 13 09:04:37 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:04:37 -0500
Subject: CDR: Randseed dead?
Message-ID: <24f0f6f4a9e8a96a0d61801b48a7a5b1@anon.xg.nu>

   Anybody know what's wrong with the randseed remailer? It
hasn't been mailing yesterday or today.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Sep 13 08:06:56 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:06:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Is kerberos broken? cpunk
Message-ID: 



> ----------
> From: 	David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com]
> 
> At 12:00 PM 8/31/00 -0400, Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> >No but I feel free to type a hundred or so, but that's beside the
> >point. The claim made was that anything a human can remember, a
> >computer can brute force, this was simply one very clear example that
> >it simply was not true, as I rather thoroughly established.
> 
> Anything large that a human can remember has enough structure so that you
> don't need brute force, you use a dictionary-based attack.
> 
This is nonsense. The wordspace of languages is large enough that 
it's easy to compose perfectly reasonable texts which are 
highly resistant to dictionary attacks.

For one of my leisure time activities, I have to memorize set texts
up to 15 minutes long. I'm expected to give these letter perfect, and
I do. 

Here's an example of a good passphrase:

"David grossly underestimates the ability of homo sapiens to memorize
and exactly reproduce long texts. An examination of American 
high school students ability to perform the Gettysburg Address is a
good counterexample."

222 bytes, more or less. Even if we assume only 1bit of entropy per
character (it's ordinary english), that's a pretty tough space to search.
It's a safe bet that those two sentences have never been placed
together in all of human history before now, so there's no dictionary
to check.

The problem is not that passphrases *can't* be made secure -
the problem is that most people are unwilling to use good ones. 

Peter Trei



 





From holovacs at idt.net  Wed Sep 13 08:27:52 2000
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:27:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>

You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
advocate violence to children)

Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.

jay

----- Original Message -----
From: Jodi Hoffman 
To: Lizard 
Cc: Declan McCullagh ; ;

Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
>
> Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> differently.





From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 08:45:10 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:45:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>

Jay Holovacs wrote:
> 
> You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
> same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> advocate violence to children)


Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?


> 
> Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> 
> jay
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jodi Hoffman 
> To: Lizard 
> Cc: Declan McCullagh ; ;
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> >
> > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > differently.

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From frissell at panix.com  Wed Sep 13 08:50:49 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:50:49 -0400
Subject: CDR: KERSHOFF
In-Reply-To: <25250-39BEF990-14168@storefull-105.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913114954.04e164c0@popserver.panix.com>

At 11:50 PM 9/12/00 -0400, eileen douvarjo wrote:
>Searching SS# for John/Jacob Kershoff,
>lived 1940-1950's onStaten Island, N.Y.
>Been told his name was JAY, could be nickname. Died before 1995,  he was
>married to Margaret Whitehead and had two children.
>He was an officer in the US Navy during WW11. Thank you.
>Eileen Douvarjo

Search here:

http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/ssdi/main.htm

No surname Kershoff appears in the SS Death Index.  Try other spellings.

DCF
----
It's genetic.  Note on the 1871 Canadian census entry for my 2nd great 
grandfather Josiah Burr Plumb:
"Obstructed here by Party refusing any convenience (visits?) upon Veranda 
Ordering Enumerator out."




From holovacs at idt.net  Wed Sep 13 09:02:21 2000
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:02:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>

You miss the point...  I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
That is immaterial.

I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.

jay

----- Original Message -----
From: Jodi Hoffman 
To: Jay Holovacs 
Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
; 
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?


> Jay Holovacs wrote:
> >
> > You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
the
> > same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> > advocate violence to children)
>
>
> Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
>
>
> >
> > Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> > protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> > murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> >
> > jay
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > To: Lizard 
> > Cc: Declan McCullagh ;
;
> > 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > >
> > > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > > differently.
>
> --
> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
>
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
>




From mclark at cdt.org  Wed Sep 13 09:04:54 2000
From: mclark at cdt.org (Michael Clark)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:04:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

You may want to look into the Publius Censorship Resistant Publishing 
System. http://publius.cdt.org. This is a beta system currently, so 
is only a short term solution. But you could post a file to Publius, 
send the resulting URL out to cypherpunks and other lists, and then 
anyone could get a copy of the file anonymously. Michael


At 11:34 PM -0400 9/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. 
>Any offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume 
>they'll be duly forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in 
>question here would last on a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]



--
Michael Clark, Assistant Webmaster
Center for Democracy and Technology
1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100    Washington, DC 20006
voice: 202-637-9800    fax: 202-637-0968
mclark at cdt.org         http://www.cdt.org/
PGP Key available on keyservers

Join our Activist Network! Your participation can make a difference!
http://www.cdt.org/join/




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Sep 13 09:38:31 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:38:31 -0400
Subject: CDR: censorship rears its head
Message-ID: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>

Lieberman: Entertainment Must
            Police Itself or Else 
            By Kalpana Srinivasan
            Associated Press Writer

            WASHINGTON (AP) - Sen. Joe Lieberman decried a
            "culture of carnage" surrounding Americas young
            people and told a Senate committee Wednesday that
            the government should stop the marketing of violent
            movies, music and video games to children if the
            industry fails to police itself. 
 http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGI11ED63DC.html


Lynne Cheney, former Chairman, National Endowment for the Humanities, is set
to testify before the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and
Transportation on Wednesday. 

Cheney is planning to take direct aim at Eminem for his "hatred of women"
with depictions that are "degrading and violating". Cheney will also zero in
on the rappers record distibutor, SEAGRAMS, Hill sources reveal. She will
challenge members of SEAGRAMS board. 
 http://www.drudgereport.com/mat28jj.htm

Snipers Needed.







From imtiazali at lovemail.com  Wed Sep 13 05:48:16 2000
From: imtiazali at lovemail.com (imtiaz ali)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 12:48:16 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000913124816.5397.qmail@whitfield.chek.com>

Dear sir

I have to take a few information & I will be thankful to you if you will guide me .
I had visited the web site  www.conchrepublic.com. they are saying that it was the part of the Florida state separated from the USA in the 1982 . now they are issuing the passport of the conchrepublic by just paying the fee of 109 US$ & sending the 3 PASSPORT size picture, id card s & current passports photo copy. 
I will be thankful to you if you inform me that whether this republic exist & they are the representative of the republic . the address of their Secretary General is on whos name the draft of 109 is to be sent.

                    Office of the Secretary General 
P.O. Box 6583 
Key West, FL 33041-6583 
 Phone:(305) 296-0213 
 FAX: (305) 296-8803 

Conch Republic Communications 
P.O. Box 735 
Key Largo, FL 33037-0735 


       please inform me soon.


Thanks

imtiazali 


_____________________________________________________________
Signup for your FREE email account at http://www.lovemail.com




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep 13 13:10:18 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:10:18 -0700
Subject: CDR: USA.net proxy: *** NOT! ****
References: <200009122144.RAA03630@www2.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <39BFDF2A.9DE947D4@sunder.net>

George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
> 
> Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs
> in received email to proxy through their server, meaning
> they had logs of all URLs you visited when clicking on
> hyperlinks while reading your personal email.


 
> Here is the resulting URL in the new window USA.net opens
> when you click on an URL in your email:
> 
> http://www.netaddress.com/tpl/Info/Popup?hidden___url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F
> 



> Continue clicking, and it's still via USA.net.

It's *NOT* anonymizing anything. DO NOT USE THIS IN PLACE OF AN ANONIMIZER!!!
All it does is log where you're going.  It doesn't actually proxy anything. It simply opens up two frames, one that says "You are
visiting a site outside of Net at ddress. Please close this browser to return to Net at ddress." and instructs your browser to go to
whatever embedded url you have. In this case Amazon.com.

Should you hover your mouse over the links in Amazon you won't see the netaddress.com url pop up. You'll see Amazon urls.

So while, yes, it does spy on what urls you visit, it does *NOT* proxy them, so it offers no protection!!!


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 13:19:18 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:19:18 -0700
Subject: CDR: Noah's Flood
Message-ID: 


A year and a half ago I read one of the most interesting, 
interdisciplinary books I've ever read, "Noah's Flood," by Ryan and 
Pitman. Not a religious book, but a book combining oceanography, 
geology, fish biology, pottery studies, DNA analysis, mythology, and 
several other fields.

The big news today was the announcement that human habitation remains 
have been found where the Ryan and Pitman theory predicted. This has 
profound significance for our culture, for understanding the spread 
of Indo-European language, and for the apparent "diaspora" happening 
at around this time.

(It would not surprise me if the earliest known agricultural 
implements are found in the next few years.)

This is not a Cypherpunks topic, but I believe I've mentioned the 
Ryan and Pitman book here before. And it shows how science is done.

To quote one of the many stories appearing today:


Wednesday September 13 3:00 AM ET
New Evidence of Great Flood Found

By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The first evidence that humans lived in an area now 
covered by the Black Sea - perhaps inundated by the biblical flood - 
has been found by a team of explorers.

``Artifacts at the site are clearly well preserved, with carved 
wooden beams, wooden branches and stone tools,'' lead researcher 
Robert Ballard said.
...
Columbia University researchers William Ryan and Walter Pittman 
speculated in their 1997 book ``Noah's Flood'' that when the European 
glaciers melted, about 7,000 years ago, the Mediterranean Sea 
overflowed into what was then a smaller freshwater lake to create the 
Black Sea.

Last year Ballard found indications of an ancient coastline miles out 
from the current Black Sea coast. The new discovery provides evidence 
that people once lived in that now inundated region.

(end excerpt)
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep 13 10:19:38 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:19:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> 
Message-ID: <39BFB711.6C6150E1@acmenet.net>

Tim May wrote:
> We as a culture have swung far away from "sticks and stones may break
> my bones but names will never hurt me" toward a culture of lawsuits.
> And the lawyer lobby supports and embraces this culture, getting laws
> passed making it easier every day to suppress speech.

For my first year of law school I'm taking Contracts, Criminal Law,
Legal Writing, and Torts. The books for the first three subjects aren't
too bad from a "lawyers are scum" perspective, but both of my torts
books had me screaming within twenty pages. In one, the authors argue
for greatly increasing the scope of tort offenses and reducing the
permissible defenses [1]. As if the US doesn't have enough frivolous
and nonsensical lawsuits. In the other, on page 3 yet, the authors
argue that if someone is injured such that he can no longer work,
_someone_ should be held financially liable because society has lost
the first person's wages [2]. That seems just half a step from saying
that the people are the property of the state. Maybe I'm reading too
much into poorly-phrased paragraphs, but I haven't seen anything in
either book to contradict the bad impression.

[1] _Understanding Torts_, Diamond, Levine, and Madden, Matthew
Bender.
[2] _Torts and Compensation_ 3rd ed, Dobbs and Hayden, West
Publishing


See http://www.overlawyered.com for a jaundiced view of the legal
system. The site editor, Walter Olsen, has particular "issues" with
plaintiff's lawyers.


-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 10:25:29 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:25:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its head
In-Reply-To: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>
References: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 

At 12:38 PM -0400 9/13/00, A. Melon wrote:
>Lieberman: Entertainment Must
>             Police Itself or Else
>             By Kalpana Srinivasan
>             Associated Press Writer
>
>             WASHINGTON (AP) - Sen. Joe Lieberman decried a
>             "culture of carnage" surrounding Americas young
>             people and told a Senate committee Wednesday that
>             the government should stop the marketing of violent
>             movies, music and video games to children if the
>             industry fails to police itself.
> http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGI11ED63DC.html
>
>
>Lynne Cheney, former Chairman, National Endowment for the Humanities, is set
>to testify before the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and
>Transportation on Wednesday.
>
>Cheney is planning to take direct aim at Eminem for his "hatred of women"
>with depictions that are "degrading and violating". Cheney will also zero in
>on the rappers record distibutor, SEAGRAMS, Hill sources reveal. She will
>challenge members of SEAGRAMS board.
> http://www.drudgereport.com/mat28jj.htm
>
>Snipers Needed.

I will look forward to watching the coverage. Do you plan to take out 
just the censorious bitch Lynne Cheney, or also her censorious 
husband and VP candidate?

And then there's Al Gore (RAT) and his running mate (JEW RAT).

(Subliminal messages brought to you by the Republican Party).

Interesting that 3 out of the 4 top rats--Cheney, Gore, 
Lieberman--have their own censorious attacks on speech, or have 
spouses who lead such attacks. Lynne, Tipper, and   Lieberman 
himself. I wonder why Bush is being left out? Maybe it'll be like 
Nixon in China: the only one of the four not calling for repeal of 
the First Amendment will be the one who pulls the trigger.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From emc at chao.insync.net  Wed Sep 13 14:06:15 2000
From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
Message-ID: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>

http://www.newsday.com/ap/national/ap254.htm

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) -- After nine months in solitary confinement, Wen
Ho Lee pleaded guilty Wednesday to a single count of mishandling nuclear
secrets and was set free by an apologetic judge who said the government's
actions ''embarrassed our entire nation.''

...

''I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which
you were held in custody by the executive branch,'' Parker said.

Parker said the Departments of Justice and Energy ''have embarrassed our
entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.''

...

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 11:06:25 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:06:25 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BFB711.6C6150E1@acmenet.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:19 PM -0400 9/13/00, Steven Furlong wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>  We as a culture have swung far away from "sticks and stones may break
>>  my bones but names will never hurt me" toward a culture of lawsuits.
>>  And the lawyer lobby supports and embraces this culture, getting laws
>>  passed making it easier every day to suppress speech.
>
>For my first year of law school I'm taking Contracts, Criminal Law,
>Legal Writing, and Torts. The books for the first three subjects aren't
>too bad from a "lawyers are scum" perspective, but both of my torts
>books had me screaming within twenty pages.

Why in the name of all that is good and interesting would you train 
to become a _lawyer_?

Jeesh.

(From a practical standpoint, here in the Bay Area there is a growing 
oversupply of lawyers. According to the newspapers, modulo their 
biases and inaccuracies, many lawyer larvae are accepting "paralegal" 
positions. As with past "shortages of doctors" and "shortages of 
teachers," the boom-bust cycle continues. Also, there is a trend 
toward "corporatization" of these fields, with doctors as 
not-so-highly-paid-anymore employees of HMOs, for example. If the 
trend carried over to LMOs (Legal Maintenance Organizations), look 
out.)

>In one, the authors argue
>for greatly increasing the scope of tort offenses and reducing the
>permissible defenses [1]. As if the US doesn't have enough frivolous
>and nonsensical lawsuits. In the other, on page 3 yet, the authors
>argue that if someone is injured such that he can no longer work,
>_someone_ should be held financially liable because society has lost
>the first person's wages [2]. That seems just half a step from saying
>that the people are the property of the state. Maybe I'm reading too
>much into poorly-phrased paragraphs, but I haven't seen anything in
>either book to contradict the bad impression.

All of this is why I protest so loudly when I hear people saying "But 
this is a lawsuit, not a government action! It's not speech 
suppression, just the tort process at work."

(And there are some connections, which I won't go into right now, 
with treating journalists as some kind of special protected class, 
with "shield laws" and customary (pace Lessig) exemptions from 
lawsuits which would hit ordinary proles. There should be no such 
exemptions, and yet far higher standards for successfully suing. My 
not liking the words of NAMBLA, or Declan McCullagh, or Aryan 
Nations, should not be enough to get a lawsuit into a court of law.)

There have been _practical_ solutions offered. "Loser pays" is the 
most obvious one. (With no way of avoiding the judgment. Not with 
bankruptcy, not with poverty. If Sally B. Frivolous files a lawsuit 
against J. Random Company and _loses_ and is ordered to pay court 
costs and damages of several million dollars, then let her mop floors 
for the next 60 years, paying 80% of her earnings just to keep up 
with the interest payments! Debtor's prisons are a good idea.)


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 14:09:55 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:09:55 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
References: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 4:57 PM -0400 9/13/00, Omri Schwarz wrote:
>  > At 11:27 AM -0400 9/13/00, Jay Holovacs wrote:
>>  >You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
>>  >same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
>>  >advocate violence to children)
>>  >
>>  >Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
>>  >protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
>>  >murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
>>  >
>>
>>  Actually, the tide of civil lawsuits against all sorts of
>>  organizations is rising. Aryan Nations was just ordered to pay some
>>  multimillion dollar fee because some woman was harassed or attacked
>>  or had her feelings hurt--not sure which--by some people she claimed
>>  were connected to or influenced by AN.
>
>
>Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
>by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
>with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)

This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
backfire.

I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
compound she hated so much.

A pseudonymous person sent me a note on this woman and her plans, 
including this excerpt, which I agree with:

"The fact the woman, supposedly a random passing stranger, intends to use
the money and convert the compound to a 'Peace Center' makes me think
the entire thing was a setup. "

In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those 
who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an 
example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" 
doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty 
Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like.

I still say we should sue Operation Push for every asset it has. 
Hymietown, indeed.

--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 14:20:00 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:20:00 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 2:06 PM -0700 9/13/00, Eric Cordian wrote:
>http://www.newsday.com/ap/national/ap254.htm
>
>ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) -- After nine months in solitary confinement, Wen
>Ho Lee pleaded guilty Wednesday to a single count of mishandling nuclear
>secrets and was set free by an apologetic judge who said the government's
>actions ''embarrassed our entire nation.''
>
>...
>
>''I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which
>you were held in custody by the executive branch,'' Parker said.
>
>Parker said the Departments of Justice and Energy ''have embarrassed our
>entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.''

Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant 
salary and retirement benefits.

This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary 
William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss 
of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his 
home computer and leaving codeword material where his family, 
housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.

There are a couple of cases of other DOD folks in the same straits.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep 13 11:52:56 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:52:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> 
Message-ID: <39BFCCF5.B4D4D04B@acmenet.net>

Tim May wrote:
> Why in the name of all that is good and interesting would you train
> to become a _lawyer_?

 I make my living as a programmer, and plan to continue to do so.
I want a law degree to help defend techies and free software projects
from big-bucks corps and govts who feel threatened or avaricious over
some aspect of the free projects. I'm attempting to help in some
prior-restraint-on-crypto cases now, on the tech side, and would have
liked to be able to help on the legal side. After I have a year of
school under my belt, I'll see if EFF or the like can use some
untrained assistance.


> (From a practical standpoint, here in the Bay Area there is a growing
> oversupply of lawyers.

That's the case all over the US, isn't it? But you're right, the Bay
Area seems to have more than its share. Look on the bright side: the
lawyers will probably manage to kill the Silicon Valley boom in a few
more years, the boom will go elsewhere, and the lawyers will follow.


<>
> There have been _practical_ solutions offered. "Loser pays" is the
> most obvious one.

I like "loser pays", too. Interesting that various associations of
trial lawyers contribute big bucks to kill loser pays, all the while
sanctimoniously declaiming that they're only looking out for the
interests of Sally Mae, who was rendered sterile at age 53 by a
chemical spill two hundred miles away. See
http://www.overlawyered.com/topics/politics.html (not for Sally Mae;
I just made that up).


Regards,
SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Sep 13 11:59:16 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:59:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
Message-ID: <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892@melontraffickers.com>

Middle school student arrested in
 poisoning

 Wednesday, 13 September 2000 0:18 (ET)


 Middle school student arrested in poisoning

 Middle school student arrested in poisoning

  JACKSONVILLE, Fla., Sept. 12 (UPI) -- A 15-year-old Jacksonville, Fla.,
 boy was arrested Tuesday for allegedly putting rat poison in salsa served at
 his schools cafeteria, resulting in the illness of 34 students, WJXT-TV
 reported.

  The name of the Paxon Middle School student was not released.

  The teenager was charged with poisoning food or water, a first-degree
 felony that carries a maximum penalty of 25 years in prison. A 12-year-old
 student was also questioned but had not been charged. Jacksonville Sheriffs
 Office Sgt. Gordon Bass said authorities have no motive for the crime.

  Investigators said 25 grams of Talon-G, an anti-coagulant, was put in the
 condiment during lunch Tuesday. Fifteen students were taken to hospitals
 complaining of nausea, headache, vomiting and stomach pains, while the
 others were treated at the school.

  Some parents said they cant afford to pay for the hospital treatment
 their children received and they want the school board to cover the cost.








From emc at chao.insync.net  Wed Sep 13 15:04:11 2000
From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:04:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: <200009132204.RAA61026@chao.insync.net>

Jodi Hoffman  writes:

> I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website
> throughout the years. 

So you can lie about what's in it cleverly enough not to get caught?

You *are* the same Jodi Hoffman who claims Sex Education is Satan's
Doorway to our Childrens' Innocence, aren't you.  The world's most
prolific frivilous lawsuit filer and nuisance to public educators
everywhere?

> Maybe you really are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.

Right, lady.  Everyone who doesn't buy into the Sex Abuse Agenda as
presented by their local contingent of Religious Fanatics or Lying
Feminists Cunts is a NAMBLA member.

You're one of those fine people whose agenda it is to intimidate their
opponents into silence, and then lie about what it is they would have
said, had they been permitted to speak.

> I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important you
> think it is to preserve the information put out by the people who helped
> cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help
> prevent it from happening again.

NAMBLA's rather boring text-only web site, containing comments by noted
educators, scientists, humanitarians, and artists on the topic of
transgenerational male homosexuality, moral panic, youth rights, and
extreme sex laws, is hardly, as the Curley family has alleged, a magical
resource which changes heterosexuals into pedophiles, and mild-mannered
Milquetoasts into murderers.

Any more than your web site changes atheists into God-Soaked anti-Sexual
Freaks like yourself.

Go beat your "childrens' victimization" drum elsewhere.  This is a
cryptography and civil liberties list.  Start your own Fascistpunks list
if you want a forum to spew.

As for the credentials of Robert Curley, who is *USING* his own son's
murder as a platform to attack causes the religious and political right
wing wants to damage, he is the only one of 2,000 city employees to be
allowed to "opt out" of four hours of mandatory "diversity training,"
because it would have forced him to "mouth beliefs he didn't espouse."

He also called the course, which attempts to prevent discrimination in the
workplace based on gender, sexual orientation, and race, "feel-good crap."

Like most death-penalty promoting defenders of the Christian Coalition who
try to undermine civil liberties while misdirecting the public with talk
of "child protection" and "pedophile activity," Curley sees an opening to
present the agenda of himself and his associate whores for Jesus cloaked
in words no politician dares oppose without committing political suicide.

It would be unwise to let him succeed.

That having been said, I don't think freedom of speech is going to sink or
swim based on whether the NAMBLA web site is mirrored in numerous
locations. Their lawyers may very well have advised them not to put it
back up or encourage others to host it pending the resolution of their
legal tangles.

All perspectives on all varieties of human sexuality are available at a
mouse click anyway, in the age of the Internet, and are so widely
distributed geographically that censorship is impossible.  In that sense,
part of NAMBLA's original mission has passed it by, as it is no longer
necessary to distribute opposing points of view on anything in brown paper
envelopes via snail mail.

If NAMBLA wants it mirrored, mirror it.  If they don't, print it out and
epoxy it to the side of Jodi Hoffman's barn as an example to other
censorous cows.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From billp at nmol.com  Wed Sep 13 14:11:12 2000
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:11:12 -0600
Subject: CDR: state lawsuit time
Message-ID: <39BFED70.AE83EC52@nmol.com>

http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/

Will be interesting to see how if fed get out of this one.

Maybe the feds can get around to settling some of their other New Mexico
lawsuits next?   Wednesday September 13, 2000 10:00

NSA lawsuit 1   2   3      Thursday July 27, 2000 09:53

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Don Hewitt: "a randy old goat" Tuesday August 22, 2000 10:56 60 Minutes
to Detonation Don Hewitt sex scandal. 1  Don Hewitt and the Iranian
slaughter. Don Hewitt and the NSA 1



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secret Compartmented Information  1   2   Thursday August 24, 2000 14:39

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds   0

History for the NSA FOIA lawsuit
Appeals process tutorial   Saturday February 5, 2000 12:32
Docket    Sunday February 27, 2000 13:34

If they can.




From emc at chao.insync.net  Wed Sep 13 15:12:21 2000
From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:12:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
Message-ID: <200009132212.RAA61066@chao.insync.net>

Harmon Seaver  wrote:

> Why, then, did he find Lee guilty of a felony? He could have dismissed
> the charges, eh?

He was bound by the terms of the plea agreement, without which the DOJ and
DOE would have continued to give Dr. Lee the broom handle/asshole
treatment.

Politics is the art of compromise.

The government also has language in the plea agreement which prevents them
from being held accountable for any of their behavior in the case.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From kerry at vscape.com  Wed Sep 13 13:07:20 2000
From: kerry at vscape.com (Kerry L. Bonin)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:07:20 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: VISA to smartcard the US
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000913125448.04229100@shell13.ba.best.com>

Take a look at Dallas Semiconductor's Crypto iButton family.  FIPS level 2
and 3 certified DSA/SHA services with a JVM in a large watch battery form
factor, under $50 for FOB and interface.  (Disclaimer - I don't work there,
I've just used their products for many years now and have designed them
into a dozen odd products.)  Many interesting places use these as personal
certificate storage to authenticate access.

At 02:18 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>
>Hmmm.  These devices could be useful, even without using 
>them as credit cards.  I wonder if you could buy a batch 
>of them from the manufacturer with custom software installed? 
>
>It would sure be nice if I could make a physical key token 
>that would render my system completely useless if the key 
>were, say, in my wallet at work, and the computer found its 
>way to, say, the hands of someone carrying out an illegal 
>search and seizure.  
>
>likewise it would be nice to store PGP keys on, etc -- bits 
>of data that you want to maintain complete physical control 
>of at all times. 
>
>"Oppression is sometimes best fought with the tools that 
>the oppressors have built for their own use." 
>
>I want a PGPdisk you can boot from.
>
>				Bear
>
>
>On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, A. Melon wrote:
>
>>Sep 12, 2000 - 07:27 PM 
>>
>>            Visa USA to Launch Smart Card in
>>            the U.S. 
>>            The Associated Press
>>
>>            NEW YORK (AP) - After success with its smart card in
>>            Europe and Japan, Visa is aiming squarely at the U.S.
>>            market with an upgraded version that contains more
>>            memory. 
>>
>>            Over the next couple of weeks, Visa USA, the
>>            companys U.S. division, will be launching smart cards
>>            - microprocessors embedded in plastic -that will offer
>>            prepackaged services to be determined by its issuers. 
>>
>>            Customers will be able to download information from
>>            their computers via special card readers. Over the next
>>            year or so, they will be able to store airline tickets, for
>>            example, and eventually use the cards as keys to their
>>            cars and homes. 
>>
>>            The card, which has 32 kilobytes of memory, is
>>            different from Visas original version, which has mainly
>>            served as a "monetary value card," said Al Banisch,
>>            senior vice president of consumer credit products. 
>>
>>            The new card will be available free to Visas 350
>>            million cardholders. 
>>
>>
>
>
>
>





From 000ymao at china.com  Wed Sep 13 16:09:05 2000
From: 000ymao at china.com (000ymao at china.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:09:05
Subject: CDR: Warning!  You're Losing money on your Merchant Account...
Message-ID: <810.52506.539426@china.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3521 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From George at Orwellian.Org  Wed Sep 13 13:12:09 2000
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:12:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
Message-ID: <200009132012.QAA06771@www8.aa.psiweb.com>



George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
> 
> http://www.netaddress.com/tpl/Info/Popup?hidden___url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F
> 
> Continue clicking, and it's still via USA.net.

Sunderizer wrote:
#    It's *NOT* anonymizing anything. DO NOT USE THIS IN PLACE OF AN ANONIMIZER!!!
#    
#    So while, yes, it does spy on what urls you visit,...
#    so it offers no protection!!!

Gee, that goes without saying. Well, it should have.

#    All it does is log where you're going.  It doesn't actually proxy anything.

If the systems you connect to don't get your IP, it's a proxy.
All of AOL is a proxy.

#    Should you hover your mouse over the links in Amazon you won't see the
#    netaddress.com url pop up. You'll see Amazon urls.

[checking...] You're right. It's not proxying. It's just got a fixed first frame
going through netaddress which keeps the netaddress.net URL in the URLbar. The
other frames are direct connects.

I was distracted by an Anna Kournikova commercial, okay?

----

Still, the original complaint stands.




From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org  Wed Sep 13 09:16:00 2000
From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:16:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Jim Choate wrote:

> A *federal* child care facility. What knuckle-head ok'ed putting a child
> care facility in the same building as several federal LEA headquarters?
> And what sort of parent would want to put their child there...?

Sheeple, who don't think defensively. Even for their kids

oh, don't get me wrong, a convicted child molester moving into town, or
maybe an 'obscene' website, they'll scream about -- but they don't think
about real danger

Some years ago, in a Northern Virginia neighborhood that I lived near, a
group of theives went down the street at night and tried to open car
doors, when they found one that was unlocked they looted it. Amoung their
take were several handguns. What boggled me at the time was that if
someone was paranoid/intelligent enough to carry a gun, why weren't they
paranoid/intelligent enough to lock the damn car door at night? 

The answer that eluded me at the time was that intelligence and paranoia
are two different things, and paranoia without intelligence is dangerous.

And americans seem to be lacking in intelligence

> Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.

This would probably have not been a decision made by the parents of the
kids in question. Most sheeple aren't that intelligent or cold-blooded.

Ph.




From ian at zeroknowledge.com  Wed Sep 13 13:18:57 2000
From: ian at zeroknowledge.com (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:18:57 -0400
Subject: CDR: RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party - Sept. 21
Message-ID: <200009132018.QAA12093@iang.zks.net>

As most of you know, the RSA patent expires next week (that they issued 
a press release waiving some rights early notwithstanding).  We've been 
waiting a *long* time for this, and now we're throwing a long-anticipated 
party to celebrate!

This is a benefit for the CryptoRights Foundation, which, among other 
things, promotes the use of cryptography by Human Rights workers in 
"less-friendly" countries in order to protect both the workers and the 
people they're trying to interview and help.  [If you've never heard a talk 
by one of these people who goes to train said human rights workers in the 
use of crypto and steganography, you should get someone to tell you about 
it; it's not otherwise obvious how related the fields are, and it's 
extremely enlightening.]

There will be no charge at the door, but t-shirts and stuff will be 
available to buy.  You need to reserve (free) tickets in advance, though,
which can be had by emailing .

Below is the full announcement.  Corporate stuff starts at 8, music starts 
at 10.  Let people know about this, and I hope to see you there!

   - Ian

	A copy of this note will be at:

	http://www.cryptorights.org/benefit
	http://www.shmoo.com/rsa

	Celebrate with us as we celebrate the end of an era

	The Big RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party
	A fundraiser for the Cryptorights Foundation
	(http://www.cryptorights.org/)
	September 21, 2000
	8PM-2AM

	produced by

	Cryptorights Foundation
	BPM Consulting International

	with special thanks to our Gold Sponsor

	Certicom

	also sponsored by

	VA Linux
	Electronic Frontier Foundation
	PAIP International
	The Shmoo Group
	The Secret Order of Former Primes

	The Great American Music Hall
	859 O'Farrell St. (between Polk & Larkin)
	21+
	http://www.musichallsf.com/info/directions/

	By invitation only. In order to receive your invitation, send an
email with the # of people who plan to attend to
 Entrance is free, but the
Cryptorights Foundation will be accepting donations at the door.

	The first few hours will feature short speeches and presentations
from luminaries in the fields of cryptography and human rights. We
will present awards to various individuals for technical and activist
contributions.
	The tail end of the presentations will feature a "Wheel of Fortune"
with by your friendly hosts, John Gilmore and Cindy Cohn from the
Electronic Frontier Foundation. Solve the puzzle (donation
suggested) or buy one vowel and benefit human rights!

	Finally, at 10:00PM, the beats will drop and your evening will end
with the slamming techno sounds of the San Francisco underground!

Featuring

Sameer (FnF, Cloudfactory, Urban Wasteland, Mad Hatter, trustcrew)
	Sameer has been active in the San Francisco underground throwing
parties since 1993. In 1999 with some of the crew he met through
Friends & Family he started throwing the legendary Urban Wasteland
parties in urban renegade locations in and around the East Bay. He
also picked up his first slab of wax in early 1999 and has been
playing sick pounding techno at parties around the world since then.
He is also involved in producing a weekly club in Oakland called the
Mad Hatter. Sameer is also known as the founder of C2Net, the company
that pioneered the international development of strong cryptography to
avoid United States export restrictions.

DJ Tektrix (Sister, Tetractys, Influence Recordings)
	Cary, a/k/a DJ Tektrix, moved to San Francisco in 1997. Since then
Tektrix has played alongside DJs such as Forest Green, Twerk, Terrac,
Plateshifter, Mike Sims, Darin Marshall, Sean Murray, J-Bird, Tom L-G,
2x4 with DJ Zeel, Sifu, HoneyB, and Ethan. In 1999 she threw a party
called Circle that took place at the Mother's Cookies Warehouse,
conducted weekly live internet and pirate radio broadcasts on Vulcan
Free Radio, and this year became a resident at Tetractys and Sister.
She has played at parties such as Static, Circle, Overworld, and
Topica.

Forest Green (Cloudfactory, Sister, XLR8R, technologix, FnF)
	Forest Green has been throwing down beats with the sickness for
several years. She has traveled both across the nation and into Canada
to bring the sick Techno sound to those in need. you might also know
her as one of the starring DJs from the hit underground movie Groove!





From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Wed Sep 13 13:51:28 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz ---)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:51:28 EDT
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:34:30 EDT."
             <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> 
Message-ID: <200009132051.QAA23800@lola-granola.mit.edu>

> [A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. Any 
> offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume they'll be duly 
> forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in question here would last on 
> a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]
> 

Did Curley's lawyers at least have the smarts to grab a snapshot
of the site before getting it taken down?




From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Wed Sep 13 13:55:10 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz ---)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:55:10 EDT
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:11:34 EDT."
             <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <200009132055.QAA23823@lola-granola.mit.edu>

> 	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
> throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
> well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really 

You definitely should. 

A quick email from anybody on this list and your printouts
will be subpoenaed. (By which side, I know not.)

> are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you 

Maybe you're an alien from space.

> would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to 
> preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their 
> son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from 
> happening again.






From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Wed Sep 13 13:57:50 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz ---)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:57:50 EDT
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:42:02 PDT."
              
Message-ID: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>

> At 11:27 AM -0400 9/13/00, Jay Holovacs wrote:
> >You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
> >same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> >advocate violence to children)
> >
> >Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> >protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> >murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> >
> 
> Actually, the tide of civil lawsuits against all sorts of 
> organizations is rising. Aryan Nations was just ordered to pay some 
> multimillion dollar fee because some woman was harassed or attacked 
> or had her feelings hurt--not sure which--by some people she claimed 
> were connected to or influenced by AN.


Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)






From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep 13 17:17:26 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:17:26 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
		 <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>  <39BF3E56.A2F4F81E@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <39C01916.2AC5F86C@sunder.net>

Tom Vogt wrote:
> 
> in theory. in real life, consumption does NOT change a tiny bit with
> price changes. there's a (largely theoretical) cut-off point, where
> consumption suddenly drops to or near zero after a certain price, but
> I'm not aware of any events where this actually happened.

Probably the quite near the point where some of the sheeple wake up to the fact that it's a losing situation (i.e. they'll be
bankrupt if they continue supporting their tabacco habit), pick up their weapons and steal said tabacco, or grow their own, etc. 
Not all those who are addicted will give up.  Others will of course give it up cold turkey.

[However, you can look at petrol products in terms of addiction, especially if it's a necessity in getting to work.]


In the US this was of course how the mobs got in power by making and selling alcohol.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From 023513090-0002 at t-online.de.=?iso-8859-1?q?  Wed Sep 13 11:17:36 2000
From: 023513090-0002 at t-online.de.=?iso-8859-1?q? (Bj=F6rn?= Ganslandt)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 17:17:36 -0100
Subject: CDR: Re:  Quantum Computing Talk at WPI, 8/12
References:  <35C8C53D.2AE74FF2@mainstream.net>
Message-ID: <200009131817.UAA04926@Ansimorph.org>

Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum computers, if ever built, will be able to factor numbers
> beyond the reach of traditional methods.  The development of quantum
> computation would mean the demise of RSA and other public key
> cryptosystems. We show the main idea of Shor's quantum factoring
> algorithm and assess the complexity of the circuit implementing the
> algorithm. We describe the current state of experimental quantum
> computing and the most promising ideas concerning the implementation
> of quantum logic.
> 
> Classical supercomputers has recently reached the computational power
> of one teraflop (10^12 floating point operations per second). We will
> discuss the current effort to built a petaflops scale computer (peta
> = 10^15) based on the combination of advanced technologies such as
> superconducting digital electronics, cryogenic CMOS, optical
> switches, and holographic memories. Breaking existing ciphers is
> certainly one of the primary applications of this new class of
> computing machines.
> 
> For a Kris Gay's biography please check:
> http://www.ee.rochester.edu/~ee492/bio/bio.html

I think till quantum computers will crack RSA keys in days or less, it will take 
some time, because todays quantum computers have only about 3 Q-bits and 
factoring of a RSA key takes much more.

Bjoern Ganslandt




From 023513090-0002 at t-online.de  Wed Sep 13 11:17:37 2000
From: 023513090-0002 at t-online.de (Bjoern Ganslandt)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 17:17:37 -0100
Subject: CDR: Diffie-Hellman/DSS Cryptoanalysises?
Message-ID: <200009131817.UAA04929@Ansimorph.org>

Are there good cryptoanalysises of the Diffie-Hellman/DSS cipher as implemented 
in PGP 5.x ? (Or other usefull information about it ?)

Bjoern Ganslandt




From whgiii at openpgp.net  Wed Sep 13 14:38:27 2000
From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:38:27 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
In-Reply-To: <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>

In <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892 at melontraffickers.com>, on 09/13/00 
   at 12:59 PM, "A. Melon"  said:

>Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school

>Middle school student arrested in
> poisoning

Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic poisoning?

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III      http://www.openpgp.net  
Geiger Consulting    

Data Security & Cryptology Consulting
Programming, Networking, Analysis
 
PGP for OS/2:               http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
E-Secure:                   http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------





From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep 13 17:42:26 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:42:26 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <39C01EF2.BE316642@sunder.net>


You still haven't put your money where your mouth is.  You claim you've printed out those web pages.  I don't give a rat's ass
either way, however, I did see a challenge there which you've just slithered out of answering.

IMHO, yes, anyone who murders a child should indeed go to jail for the rest of their lives (and the shorter and more painful those
lives are the better.)

However, that said, where on their page did it say that they encouraged killing kids?  (Again, I've never visited, seen, nor care
to, NABLA's site as I disagree with their ideas, lifestyles, etc.)

But one must always distinguish between the right of free speech advocating something, and actually taking action on it.  You are
failing to do that.

It's not about whose son or daughter it was.  Indeed, that was murder and possibly rape, and it should be punished at such.

This is about blaming someone's speech for that crime.  The question is, did that someone, in this case a web site, incite murder
and rape?  You claim you've got the printouts.  Well, please quote from them to prove your point.

Likely you'll come up with some excuse to not do so, or ignore this request, or likely call me a defender of rapists, which I assure
you I am not.  I'd like to be the first in line with a hot iron to plunge in assholes of the rapists/murderers.  

But only if they are found guilty.  Mere accusations, and guilt by association does not make those who only speak, but don't take
actions guilty.  It makes it "thoughtcrime" which is anathema to a free country and basic human rights.


Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> Lizard wrote:
> >
> > Ah, the fascists rise to the bait!
> >
> > Freedom of speech is a moral absolute. The words of NAMBLA are as
> > important, and about as morally sound, as the words of Jodi Hoffman. And,
> > IMO, about as likely to cause a murder.
> 
>         Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> differently.



-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Sep 13 14:45:35 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:45:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: <39BFF57A.7A9465A@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

Eric Cordian wrote:

>
> ''I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which
> you were held in custody by the executive branch,'' Parker said.
>
> Parker said the Departments of Justice and Energy ''have embarrassed our
> entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.''
>

     Why, then, did he find Lee guilty of a felony? He could have dismissed the charges, eh?

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS     Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System        Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840  hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us






From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Sep 13 14:49:21 2000
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:49:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
In-Reply-To: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892 at melontraffickers.com>, on 09/13/00 
>    at 12:59 PM, "A. Melon"  said:
> 
> >Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
> 
> >Middle school student arrested in
> > poisoning
> 
> Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic poisoning?

"Domestic Bioterrorism(tm)" is scarier.  The media has learned a long
time ago that if you frighten people and appeal to the fear/threat portion
of their natures that they will buy more papers, watch your news programs,
and be led by the nose into giving up whatever rights and property
demanded by those in power.

Of course in Congress they think "Domestic Bioterrorism" is the day the
maid serves the chicken sushi with sun-ripened mayonaise for lunch.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 15:02:44 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:02:44 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <39BFF57A.7A9465A@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 5:45 PM -0400 9/13/00, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>Eric Cordian wrote:
>
>>
>>  ''I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which
>>  you were held in custody by the executive branch,'' Parker said.
>>
>>  Parker said the Departments of Justice and Energy ''have embarrassed our
>>  entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.''
>>
>
>      Why, then, did he find Lee guilty of a felony? He could have 
>dismissed the charges, eh?

Many things are felonies. I commit between 3 and 5 felonies a month, 
at least that I know of.

In this case, "improperly handling secrets" is a felony. Same kind of 
mishandling that former DOD Secretary William Perry may be charged 
with.

As to why the deal included this single remaining count, the news 
stories are filled with much verbosity on this. Stuff about fig 
leaves, sending messages to other secret holders, etc.

You claim to be a librarian...look it up.

Now, did this particular felony justify 9 months of solitary 
confinement, loss of employment and retirement benefits, and so on? 
And will William Perry and others now face comparable treatments?


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From ernest at luminousnetworks.com  Wed Sep 13 18:11:04 2000
From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:11:04 -0700
Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Why?
Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DB9A@galileo.luminousnetworks.com>

> > I don't believe anyone was forced to house their child in that center.
>
> It doesn't require force
>
> X (official/officer/etc in position of power) decides that a childcare
> facility would make an excellent 'human sheild' in place Y.  X then makes
> arrangements for decent child care facility, tells parents who work at Y
> 'Look. Your children can be near you, you can visit them at lunch time,
> you can drop them off and pick them up on your way in and out of the
> office respectively, and if something happens [in the normal sense -- kid
> falls off monkey bars and breaks arm sort of things] you'll be right
> there'
>
> No force necessary. Parents think they have a good deal. X thinks he has a
> good deal. Kids are up shit creek if anything actually goes down.
>
> And no, I'm not arguing this did, has or is happening. I'm not in a
> position to have data on that. I'm arguing that, contrary to what you
> said, it *is* a viable possibility.

No it's not a viable possibility except for those who see conspiratorial
agents around every corner.  Try running a large organization some time
and you will see just what kind of stupid shit you have to deal with.

You may well turn into one of those evil union-busting executives.  There
are a lot of incentive issues to deal with as well as contractual issues
if you are working with unioned employees.  Are you suggesting that the
unions may have been complicit in putting a daycare there?

This is total horse shit, and it is definitely NOT viable.

This sort of suggestion really makes this list look like it's inhabitted by
a bunch of loonies.  It's your right to suggest any shit you want, but it's
way out in left field.

Ern
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From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Wed Sep 13 11:15:55 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 18:15:55 -0000
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its head
Message-ID: <0K9DO5EO36782.5943865741@anonymous.poster>

>WASHINGTON (AP) - Sen. Joe Lieberman decried a
>"culture of carnage" surrounding Americas young

So what is the end game of the violence monopoly ?

To be able to blow the brains out of domestic sheeple
(and, for sport, the faraway tribes) the state must
have trained killers (cops, fedz, army.)

If they are bred in somatized environment they will not
be good at it (ie. blowing the brains out ...) So either
we are going to see special camps that will take care of
piglet education, or they will have to import foreign-trained
carnivoras.

It is funny - society of Morlocks and Eloi, but with the
twist: Eloi are both stupid and ugly.






From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep 13 15:17:26 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:17:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net> 
Message-ID: <39BFFCDD.5659358B@acmenet.net>

Tim May wrote:
...
> Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant
> salary and retirement benefits.
> 
> This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary
> William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss
> of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his
> home computer and leaving codeword material where his family,
> housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.

For once, I am even harsher than Tim, or at least what Tim wrote.

FBI and other agents admitted to making "misleading" statements in
their arguments to keep Mr Lee in jail. Every goverment employee
involved in "misleading" statements, pressure on Lee's family and
friends, and supression of exculpatory evidence should be immediately
jailed and held in solitary confinement for some multiple of the time
Lee was held.

Those who would monitor and control our behaviour should be held to
higher standards than those they would control.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 13 16:18:05 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:18:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Phaedrus wrote:

> Sheeple, who don't think defensively. Even for their kids
> 
> oh, don't get me wrong, a convicted child molester moving into town, or
> maybe an 'obscene' website, they'll scream about -- but they don't think
> about real danger

So your claim is that when the FBI, BATF, etc. moved into that building
not a single one of them actualy executed on the required threat plan? And
during the execution of that plan nobody noticed the child care center or
considered the impact of an attack on them?

Not bloody likely.

It might be interesting to look at the results, doubt you can get them
from FOIA.

> > Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.
> 
> This would probably have not been a decision made by the parents of the
> kids in question. Most sheeple aren't that intelligent or cold-blooded.

I don't believe anyone was forced to house their child in that center.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org  Wed Sep 13 11:35:18 2000
From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:35:18 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Jim Choate wrote:

> So your claim is that when the FBI, BATF, etc. moved into that building
> not a single one of them actualy executed on the required threat plan? And
> during the execution of that plan nobody noticed the child care center or
> considered the impact of an attack on them?

I didn't say that the FBI, BATF or anyone else has (during the OK city
bombing or at any time) actually used such a facility as a human sheild. I
was pointing out that it was possible, that parents could easily be
shepherded into using such a facility for child care and that the
cold-bloodedness possible certainly does exist, just not in the parents of
the children (who are/were/would be ignorant of such uses of the very
convenient on site child care)

> I don't believe anyone was forced to house their child in that center.

It doesn't require force

X (official/officer/etc in position of power) decides that a childcare
facility would make an excellent 'human sheild' in place Y.  X then makes
arrangements for decent child care facility, tells parents who work at Y
'Look. Your children can be near you, you can visit them at lunch time,
you can drop them off and pick them up on your way in and out of the
office respectively, and if something happens [in the normal sense -- kid
falls off monkey bars and breaks arm sort of things] you'll be right
there'

No force necessary. Parents think they have a good deal. X thinks he has a
good deal. Kids are up shit creek if anything actually goes down.

And no, I'm not arguing this did, has or is happening. I'm not in a
position to have data on that. I'm arguing that, contrary to what you
said, it *is* a viable possibility.


Ph.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 15:44:09 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:44:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <39BFFCDD.5659358B@acmenet.net>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 6:17 PM -0400 9/13/00, Steven Furlong wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>...
>>  Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant
>>  salary and retirement benefits.
>>
>>  This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary
>>  William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss
>>  of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his
>>  home computer and leaving codeword material where his family,
>>  housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.
>
>For once, I am even harsher than Tim, or at least what Tim wrote.
>
>FBI and other agents admitted to making "misleading" statements in
>their arguments to keep Mr Lee in jail. Every goverment employee
>involved in "misleading" statements, pressure on Lee's family and
>friends, and supression of exculpatory evidence should be immediately
>jailed and held in solitary confinement for some multiple of the time
>Lee was held.
>
>Those who would monitor and control our behaviour should be held to
>higher standards than those they would control.

Maybe harsher than what I wrote above, but, as you allude to, not 
necessarily harsher than what I think.

Fact is, government criminals are almost never held accountable for 
their crimes. Order the killings of innocents...get a transfer and 
promotion. Write assassination manuals for third world police 
forces...get a medal. Illegally use FBI files to attack one's 
political opponents...be told not to do it again. Shoot an unarmed 
man 31 times in a hail of gunfire...be found innocent.

And the gubment types and their court lackeys have written things so 
that "suing the government" is nearly impossible.

Meanwhile, "double jeopardy" is being rolled-back on almost a daily 
basis. Prosecutors are congratulating themselves when they find 
loopholes and new laws which allow them to "take a second bite of the 
apple."

Fucking creeps.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





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From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Sep 13 15:49:11 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:49:11 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net> 
Message-ID: <39C0027C.420F71D9@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

Tim May wrote:

>
> As to why the deal included this single remaining count, the news
> stories are filled with much verbosity on this. Stuff about fig
> leaves, sending messages to other secret holders, etc.
>
> You claim to be a librarian...look it up.
>

        The question was rhetorical, Tim. I followed all the news reports, etc.
It's bullshit -- Lee gets totally screwed, since the files he downloaded
weren't (or so the news story goes) even classified material when he downloaded
them, only later to cover the government's ass.  My question remains - if the
judge really felt he was getting screwed, all he had to do was dismiss the
case.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS     Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System        Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840  hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 16:02:35 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:02:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <39C0027C.420F71D9@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 6:49 PM -0400 9/13/00, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>
>>
>>  As to why the deal included this single remaining count, the news
>>  stories are filled with much verbosity on this. Stuff about fig
>>  leaves, sending messages to other secret holders, etc.
>>
>>  You claim to be a librarian...look it up.
>>
>
>         The question was rhetorical, Tim. I followed all the news 
>reports, etc.
>It's bullshit -- Lee gets totally screwed, since the files he downloaded
>weren't (or so the news story goes) even classified material when he 
>downloaded
>them, only later to cover the government's ass.  My question remains - if the
>judge really felt he was getting screwed, all he had to do was dismiss the
>case.

They rarely just dismiss a case...that redounds negatively on the 
government's side (and the judge would not be paranoid in thinking 
that one of the many covert ops ninjas might make a car bomb 
mysteriously appear under his seat one fine morning).

Lee had no power. He was being held in solitary confinement, in 
shackles at times. The government held all the cards, though there 
hand was falling apart as time passed. They wrote the plea agreement, 
Lee signed it, the judge then accepted it.

Again, this was all covered ad nauseum in the articles.


--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Sep 13 19:36:27 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:36:27 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913193627.0394b4b0@mrlizard.com>

At 10:40 PM 9/13/00 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: 

The company is claiming breach of franchise agreement by franchisees who
are supposedly  saying unkind things about it.  It is also claiming that
the domain names newworldcoffefraud.com and newworldfraud.com are likely to
confuse innocent surfers looking for coffee.
=======
Why, yes! When I want to look at the wares of company "X", I often go to
www.companyxsucks.com, or www.companyxripoff.com!

Any judge who buys that line of reasoning should be impeached, on the
grounds our Founding Fathers did not intend that the judiciary be populated
by fungus.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 20:03:23 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:03:23 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:40 PM -0400 9/13/00, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>
>The defendants have no lawyers and are proceeding in pro se.  The 
>sites may be gone Friday night if the judge rules against them.
>

More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that this is the real 
crime: not hiring lawyers.


--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org  Wed Sep 13 14:10:23 2000
From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:10:23 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DB9A@galileo.luminousnetworks.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Ernest Hua wrote:

> No it's not a viable possibility except for those who see conspiratorial
> agents around every corner.  Try running a large organization some time
> and you will see just what kind of stupid shit you have to deal with.

Hrm. Perhaps I should rephrase -- it's not not-viable because people
aren't so cold blooded that they'd use their own children as a sheild,
because the people in question can use other people's children, instead. 

And thanks, running a 7 sysadmin department was quite enough for me. I
already know humans are stupid.

I'm not completely sure, however, that the difficulties of getting things
done in large organizations kills the possibility of putting child care
centers in places that are likely terrorist targets as human sheilds. It
strikes me as a rather hard thing to argue either way -- organizations
vary as much as individuals do, in my experience.

> if you are working with unioned employees.  Are you suggesting that the
> unions may have been complicit in putting a daycare there?

Well, I suppose if a bunch of unionized employees there wanted a daycare,
this could be the case -- I think it would be doubtful that the union
would want a daycare for human shield purposes...maybe I'm
misunderstanding you, though...

> This sort of suggestion really makes this list look like it's inhabitted by
> a bunch of loonies.  It's your right to suggest any shit you want, but it's
> way out in left field.

You mean, you haven't noticed that this list *is* inhabited by a bunch of
loonies. Largely because insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane
world, I suspect.

You know, other than a somewhat vague 'try running a large organization
sometime' you never did explain why it wasn't viable.


Ph.(still not saying it is or was going on, just arguing the
possibility..hmmph, I need [another] hobby or something)




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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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*note*Im replying to your ad that i read in the classified ads,You are not on any list and 
you wont 
recieve any future mailings unless you request the free booklet.
****************************************************************************************************
***************




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Sep 13 19:33:14 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:33:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Phaedrus wrote:

> I didn't say that the FBI, BATF or anyone else has (during the OK city
> bombing or at any time) actually used such a facility as a human sheild. I
> was pointing out that it was possible,

Not without breaking the security standards. 'Human shield' scenario's are
one of the standard ones. The usual goal is to deprive an attacker of such
resources.

> that parents could easily be shepherded

You had shitty parents growing up if you think most parents are like this.

> And no, I'm not arguing this did, has or is happening. I'm not in a
> position to have data on that. I'm arguing that, contrary to what you
> said, it *is* a viable possibility.

If it were up to a single person, those sorts of thing aren't decided by
individuals (just for that sort of reason). You should contact your local
LEA and discuss with them the sorts of security studies they undertake
(especialy when considering headquarters locations).

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From petro at bounty.org  Wed Sep 13 21:40:03 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:40:03 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
 
Message-ID: 

Mr. May:

>At 4:57 PM -0400 9/13/00, Omri Schwarz wrote:
>>
>>Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
>>by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
>>with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)
>
>This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
>near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
>backfire.
>
>I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
>backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
>money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
>compound she hated so much.

	Not commenting on anything but the backfire thing:

	I've had several cars over the last since 1983 (when I 
started driving) that backfired at one time or another for various 
reasons--usually relating either to spark plugs not firing properly 
(broken plugs, wires, bad distributer wires going to the wrong plugs 
etc), vacuum problems, or just plain being a rolling disaster.

	It's *possible*.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From petro at bounty.org  Wed Sep 13 21:44:20 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:44:20 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <200009132204.RAA61026@chao.insync.net>
References: <200009132204.RAA61026@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

>Jodi Hoffman  writes:
>
>>  I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website
>>  throughout the years.
>
>So you can lie about what's in it cleverly enough not to get caught?
>
>You *are* the same Jodi Hoffman who claims Sex Education is Satan's
>Doorway to our Childrens' Innocence, ... and nuisance to public educators
>everywhere?

	At least she does something useful.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Sep 13 22:16:25 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:16:25 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913221625.0396a300@mrlizard.com>

At 12:57 AM 9/14/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
>Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
>referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
>boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
>intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
>
Ohio vs. Brandenburg. Get it through your skull.

Advocacy of criminal acts is protected speech. Period. It doesn't matter
how vile the concept is. 

One of the cornerstones of a free society is that the laws reflect the will
of the people -- within certain limits -- and that ANYONE, no matter how
radical or depraved, is free to try to convince the people of the rightness
of his views. Whether these views advocate banning abortions, reinstating
slavery, exterminating Jews, or killing baby seals is *irrelevent*. He is
free to discuss them and, if anyone should offer violence against him for
the content of his ideas, the State is morally obliged to protect him and
punish the offender, no matter how much the ideas offend, shock, or disturb.

There is no room for compromise on this. None at all. Freedom of speech is
for EVERYONE, for EVERY idea, or else it is meaningless.

I cannot speak for Jay, but lest there be any doubt of *my* stance, I
believe a site advocating the bloody ritual murder of 1 day old infants in
disgustingly gruesome fashion, coupled with vile and perverse sexual acts
involving corpses, sheep, and watermelons, while giving heroin to 3 year
old girls, is protected speech -- so long as the site does not cross from
advocacy to incitement. Anyone *committing* such acts deserves a quick trip
to "Old Sparky", but that does not limit the right to TALK about such acts
at all.

Hell, Jodi, I even think YOUR site is protected speech.




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Wed Sep 13 19:18:48 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:18:48 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c01df2$1e55bb40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

Jodi wrote (with the help of the GOP):

Oh, please! Anal sex with an eight year old child! 
Is not violent?

        Phill

PS I know the irony will be lost on her.




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Wed Sep 13 19:21:08 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:21:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <003201c01df2$71f2c2c0$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

Jodi wrote

> Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First 
> Amendment, Liz.  

OK, I'll bite, which altar do you want your child sacrificing on?




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 22:22:59 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:22:59 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

At 12:57 AM -0400 9/14/00, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay. 
>Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
>referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
>boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
>intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?

Of course it should be protected speech. As are Web sites promoting 
the growing and processing of marijuana and opium, Web sites 
promoting the killing of those who need killing, Web sites promoting 
espionage, draft dodging, and terrorism.

While the _activities_ being promoted or advocate may (or may not) be 
illegal, talking about them and advocating them is a *speech act*.

Cf. the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From frissell at panix.com  Wed Sep 13 19:40:28 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:40:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com>

New World Coffee a NJ-based coffee and bagel (it bought Manhattan Bagels a 
while back) franchise company is seeking a TRO in New Jersey state court on 
Friday to try and shut down two disparagement sites.

www.NewWorldCoffeeFraud.com

www.NewWorldFraud.com

The company is claiming breach of franchise agreement by franchisees who 
are supposedly  saying unkind things about it.  It is also claiming that 
the domain names newworldcoffefraud.com and newworldfraud.com are likely to 
confuse innocent surfers looking for coffee.

The sites claim that NWC is guilty of fraud in selling franchises and lack 
of support for franchisees once they buy in.

The defendants have no lawyers and are proceeding in pro se.  The sites may 
be gone Friday night if the judge rules against them.

Get them while they're hot.

DCF
----
"They believe that the Government is the problem and that what everyone 
needs is to be told, 'You're on your own; go out there into the tender 
mercies of the global economy; have a great time in cyberspace, and we'll 
get out of your way.'" -- William Jefferson Blythe Clinton in a speech to 
the AFSCME in Chicago June 21, 1996.
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From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep 13 19:51:23 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:51:23 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
References: <3.0.5.32.20000913193627.0394b4b0@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <39C03D15.50327C9A@acmenet.net>

Lizard wrote:
> 
> At 10:40 PM 9/13/00 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> The company is claiming breach of franchise agreement by franchisees who
> are supposedly  saying unkind things about it.  It is also claiming that
> the domain names newworldcoffefraud.com and newworldfraud.com are likely to
> confuse innocent surfers looking for coffee.
> =======
> Why, yes! When I want to look at the wares of company "X", I often go to
> www.companyxsucks.com, or www.companyxripoff.com!
> 
> Any judge who buys that line of reasoning should be impeached, on the
> grounds our Founding Fathers did not intend that the judiciary be populated
> by fungus.

Now, now, not every judge who commits fatuum judicium is incompetent.
Some are corrupt.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 19:58:05 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:58:05 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill
In-Reply-To: <39BE8C46.BABDF497@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913192718.00913d20@pop.sprynet.com>

At 04:01 PM 9/12/00 -0400, Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>Anyway, I'd like to see some details about that Halt disease so that
>when my car catches it the vaccine development is already well underway.
>

Spoof it on some Important Government Official who is driving 80 in the
fast lane,
and we'll see.








From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 19:58:30 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:58:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
In-Reply-To: <006d01c01cf6$61ee3eb0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>
References: <0fbaa27cee1277f5c4941003534099bd@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913193422.00910ba0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 04:19 PM 9/12/00 -0400, Marcel Popescu wrote:
>More stuff for Freenet, it seems. I'm really curious how "they" would
>consider handling such documents instead MP3s - better or worse?
>

Heh.  How about someone reading names & addresses of
judges/physicians/whatever
in an MP3, and circulating that?

[Posting an .mp3 of someone reading DeCSS source will get you ejected from
MP3.com
for "indecent" lyrics.  I don't make this stuff up.]








From root at mail5.burlee.com  Wed Sep 13 15:05:55 2000
From: root at mail5.burlee.com (lists)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000  23:05:55 +0100
Subject: CDR: Try this Today
Message-ID: <200009131848796.SM00199@mail5.burlee.com>

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Type: text/html
Size: 740 bytes
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URL: 

From weboutfitter_service at intel.com  Wed Sep 13 16:16:34 2000
From: weboutfitter_service at intel.com (Intel WebOutfitter Service (R SM))
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:16:34 +0000
Subject: CDR: Your password
Message-ID: <200009132317.QAA21619@toad.com>

Dear Cypher,
Here is your password that was requested from the Intel(R) WebOutfitter(SM) Service web site.
Password: no_password
Reminder: 




From weboutfitter_service at intel.com  Wed Sep 13 16:16:40 2000
From: weboutfitter_service at intel.com (Intel WebOutfitter Service (R SM))
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:16:40 +0000
Subject: CDR: Your password
Message-ID: <200009132317.QAA21625@toad.com>

Dear Cypher,
Here is your password that was requested from the Intel(R) WebOutfitter(SM) Service web site.
Password: no_password
Reminder: 




From weboutfitter_service at intel.com  Wed Sep 13 16:16:42 2000
From: weboutfitter_service at intel.com (Intel WebOutfitter Service (R SM))
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:16:42 +0000
Subject: CDR: Your password
Message-ID: <200009132317.QAA21630@toad.com>

Dear Cypher,
Here is your password that was requested from the Intel(R) WebOutfitter(SM) Service web site.
Password: no_password
Reminder: 




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 20:32:53 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:32:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Is kerberos broken? cpunk
In-Reply-To: 

At 11:06 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
>Here's an example of a good passphrase:
>
>"David grossly underestimates the ability of homo sapiens to memorize
>and exactly reproduce long texts. An examination of American 
>high school students ability to perform the Gettysburg Address is a
>good counterexample."
>
>222 bytes, more or less. Even if we assume only 1bit of entropy per
>character (it's ordinary english), that's a pretty tough space to search.
>It's a safe bet that those two sentences have never been placed
>together in all of human history before now, so there's no dictionary
>to check.
>
>The problem is not that passphrases *can't* be made secure -
>the problem is that most people are unwilling to use good ones. 
>
>Peter Trei

Well I'm flattered :-) and impressed.   I would be more impressed if
e.g., you actually used such an entropic phrase, in real life.  Of course,
we don't
expect you reveal the actual length of your 'phrase.

I think you have convinced me, reinforcing something I've learned and
propogated: convenience over security.  You have also reinforced something
that fits with what I know of cog sci, and which gets to the limits of H.
sapiens: you can only remember large things if they're structured
'meaningfully'.  Kasparov can't remember *random* chessboards better than
you, only real ones.

DH, CSEE & Cog Sci '86













From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 20:32:54 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:32:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913202710.00902420@pop.sprynet.com>

At 11:05 AM 9/13/00 -0400, No User wrote:
>Ray said:
>
>> Mcveigh, as he is, is just a random crazy.  But if, say, one 
>> out of ten American Citizens or so had looked up from the news 
>> story and gone, "It's about time somebody started fighting those 
>> bastards" then he'd have a constituency to whom he could be a 
>> freedom fighter.  And also a nonzero chance of causing real 
>> change.   
>
>    And just what is it that makes you think that "one out of ten" 
>didn't secretly cheer that news? Or maybe more? And even if it were
>only "one out a thousand", isn't that a significant number? Even in
>the First American Revolution, not that many actually took up arms.
>Many were totally against it, and fought for the Brits. If one in
>a thousand took up arms today against the fedz, wouldn't that out-
>number the US military?
>

Even worse, it makes morality a function of pollsters.








From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 20:56:43 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:56:43 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913205056.0090d8d0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:14 PM 9/13/00 -0400, Tim May wrote:
>At 4:57 PM -0400 9/13/00, Omri Schwarz wrote:
>>
>>Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
>>by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
>>with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)
>
>This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
>near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
>backfire.
>
>I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
>backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
>money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
>compound she hated so much.

Your internal combustion experience is of little relevence here.

The law is wrong for pinning a rabid security force's wrongs on their
employer.
That is simple deep-pocket mining like the tobacco suits.  

However, Tim is being unjustifiably condemning of citizens with old cars,
methinks.  Even having
an agenda to provoke the brownshirts by slowly driving by does not justify
violence.  Again,
violence is the responsibility of the perpetrators, not their bosses, or
the authors of words
they read.  

Frankly, thinking critically, the backfire defence sounds like
straw-grasping, esp.
given no firearms found on the victims.  One hopes that TM does not
discharge his artillery
towards misfiring vehicles passing his terrain on public roads.

Again: its wrong to bust the smalldicked neonazis for the actions of their
'security force',
its wrong of them to assault passers-by for impulsive noises.



.....
19. Never try to baptize a cat













From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 21:10:02 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:10:02 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
In-Reply-To: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>
References: <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913205426.008ec4d0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:38 PM 9/13/00 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892 at melontraffickers.com>, on 09/13/00 
>   at 12:59 PM, "A. Melon"  said:
>
>>Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
>
>>Middle school student arrested in
>> poisoning
>
>Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic
poisoning?

I'd imagine (s)he's applying the same standards as sneezing over a salad bar
or licking doorknobs..








From baptista at pccf.net  Wed Sep 13 21:38:54 2000
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:38:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <002c01c01df2$1e55bb40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

> Jodi wrote (with the help of the GOP):
> 
> Oh, please! Anal sex with an eight year old child! 
> Is not violent?

What about two 8 year olds giving it to each other up the wazoo.  Would
you consider that violent?

Should we send those kids to jail - or maybe execute the parents?

Up in my village the kids start young.  We had a vibrant community - but
all the jobs have gone and what we have left are kids as young as 8
shooting themselves up with heroin.  The average age they start is at 10
to 14 and most of them make their money off the sex trade.  Their
collective goal seems oriented at getting high and staying high.  All sex
means to them is a means to an end.  Even money is of little significance,
the main goal is getting and staying high.

Now, the one thing that really makes me sick to my stomach is the constant
jibberish I hear from people who constantly harp on about saving the
pretty little children - meanwhile I have heroin addicts as young as 8
banging each other in the park just down the street.  For all the
allegator tears I see here and elsewhere - I never see anything of value
result from it.  Could you save the 8 years olds who are banging each
other in my park?  I have no idea what they need - i'll be frank with you
there - but they need a new life, what they have now is shit.

I've noticed people will spend more time trying to silence groups like
namble instead of solving the root problem.  Kids these days are in
serious trouble.  People like those in namble are only taking advantage of
a preexiting situation.  In my town kids are easy to get into bed if you
have the right qualifications.  And unfortunately those qualifications are
not very high.  Most of these kids are from families who lost their lively
hood when the jobs flew.  If you can keep them high - you qualify.

A good example is in fact found in our town.  I call him the "morphine
nipple".  He's an old crippled man, dying of cancer, and as drunk as a
skunk.  You can always find an assortment of boys and girls hanging around
his place.  And the kids goals are basically - how much morphine can we
squeeze out of the morphine nipple.  So the boys drop their drawers and
expose their dinkys and the girls expose their twinkies and the ol
morphine nipple gets milked.

Kid's these days are pigs and any fault to be found I suggest is with
their parents.

Forget the whole concept of childhood - that's a fiction
long gone.  Based on my experience I think I'm the last person on this
planet who actually had a great childhood - and I was innocent
too.  That's rare these days.  And in my opinion an unfortunate
observation and my advantage.

regards
Joe Baptista

                                        http://www.dot.god/
                                        http://www.dot-god.com/
                                        dot.GOD Hostmaster






From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 21:57:09 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:57:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>

You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?

Jay Holovacs wrote:
> 
> You miss the point...  I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
> That is immaterial.
> 
> I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
> speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
> responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.
> 
> jay
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jodi Hoffman 
> To: Jay Holovacs 
> Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
> ; 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> 
> > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > >
> > > You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
> the
> > > same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> > > advocate violence to children)
> >
> >
> > Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> > > protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> > > murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> > >
> > > jay
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > To: Lizard 
> > > Cc: Declan McCullagh ;
> ;
> > > 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > > >
> > > > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > > > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > > > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > > > differently.
> >
> > --
> > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
> >
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> >

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From petro at bounty.org  Thu Sep 14 00:59:17 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:59:17 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

>You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
>Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
>referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
>boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
>intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?

	Prove it.

	Produce the documentation that makes that claim.

	Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or 
have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep 14 01:36:03 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:36:03 -0700
Subject: CDR: Aryan Nations incident - Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was
  controversial?
In-Reply-To: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000914013603.008fbe70@idiom.com>

>> In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those 
>> who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an 
>> example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" 
>> doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty 
>> Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like.

It's not a "deep pockets" thing, it's a "shallow pockets" thing.
Deep pockets cases are where you want the money, so you drag somebody
with lots of money into the case if you can.  In this case,
and Morris Dee's previous KKK case, the objective isn't *getting* money -
it's *taking away* all the money the bastards have to put them out of
business,
and then twisting the knife and rubbing salt in the wounds by
using their former Bad White Boys playground for something they dislike.

If they had deep pockets, this would be hard.  
But soft targets like the AN or KKK chapter don't have a lot of money,
so a lawsuit for shooting at people or beating them up can be enough
to bankrupt them, even if all you get is a couple of double-wides
on a hunk of scrubby land.  Also, they're less likely to have
good legal representation (at least these days - in the KKK's heyday
the town judge and lawyers might well have been members),
so they're easier to beat.

Also, this is rural Idaho - stunningly gorgeous country, where the
traditional way to relate to the wildlife involves firearms,
so even if she *had* been shooting her gun it'd've been pretty normal.
The newspaper reports didn't say whether the real bright Aryan boys
decided gunshots must have been an invading Jew army before
they saw that the car was full of white people, or whether they
at least looked at them enough to decide they weren't blacks or cops...


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From lauren32 at jahoopa.com  Thu Sep 14 01:56:59 2000
From: lauren32 at jahoopa.com (lauren32)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:56:59 -0700
Subject: CDR: Hey!!
Message-ID: <200009141655.JAA29124@concord.televar.com>


You are currently listed as: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net 

This is sent to my Priority List .. I saved your 
email address from our past correspondence.  If 
you are no longer interested in interchanging 
informations, please accept my sincere apology 
and reply with "Remove".

=========================

CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION??

Are You Tired of Surfing the Net, Looking for an Online
Business, and
Never Getting Anywhere?

WHAT IF

There was a way.

http://www.prohelpyou-online.com/16.html


_______________________

To remove, hit reply and type "remove" at subject.















































































































































































































From unsubs-OXNPMEMBERSHIP0913NON1c-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.nbci.com  Wed Sep 13 19:06:21 2000
From: unsubs-OXNPMEMBERSHIP0913NON1c-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.nbci.com (Snap.com/NBCi)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:06:21 GMT
Subject: CDR: What? No more Snap.com?
Message-ID: 

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From ulf at fitug.de  Wed Sep 13 23:09:10 2000
From: ulf at fitug.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ulf_M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:09:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BFB711.6C6150E1@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:19:38PM -0400
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>  <39BFB711.6C6150E1@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20000914001556.A714@rho.invalid>

On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:19:38PM -0400, Steven Furlong wrote:

> and nonsensical lawsuits. In the other, on page 3 yet, the authors
> argue that if someone is injured such that he can no longer work,
> _someone_ should be held financially liable because society has lost
> the first person's wages [2]. That seems just half a step from saying
> that the people are the property of the state.

David Friedman argues that if someone is injured, "someone" should be
held financially liable - not because society has lost something, but
because of economic efficiency.  Here's an excerpt from his book Law's
Order:

                                     I take actions that may impose costs
   on others-drive a car, shoot a rifle, blow up rocks with dynamite. The
   size and likelihood of those costs depend on what precautions I take.
   How can we use tort law to give me an incentive to take those
   precautions that are worth taking, and only those?

   Our objective is not to eliminate the risks entirely-we could do that
   by banning cars, rifles, and dynamite. Our objective is to get the
   efficient level of precautions, and thus the efficient level of risk.
   We want a world where I get my brakes checked one more time if, and
   only if, doing so reduces expected accident costs by at least as much
   as it costs. We want a world where I break up rock with dynamite
   instead of a sledge hammer if and only if the savings in cost to me at
   least makes up for the increased risk to my neighbors. What we want is
   not a world of no accidents-that costs more than it is worth-but a
   world with only efficient accidents, only those accidents that cost
   more to prevent than preventing them is worth. We want the world we
   would have if everyone took all and only cost-justified precautions.

   To simplify things, I start with the simplest case-unicausal
   accidents. I am engaged in an activity, flying a small airplane, which
   has some chance of injuring other people's persons and property. The
   probability of such injury depends on what precautions I take but not
   on what precautions they take. There is nothing other people can do,
   short of armoring their roofs with several feet of reinforced
   concrete, a precaution we are confident is not worth the cost, to
   protect themselves against the risk that I might crash my plane into
   their houses. [...]

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Laws_Order_draft/laws_order_ToC.htm





From baptista at pccf.net  Wed Sep 13 23:09:58 2000
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:09:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

People don't seem to understand what free speech is all about.  You might
be interested in knowing Jodi that Hitlers Germany had one of the most
progressive free speech policies in the world.  You could say whatever you
wanted to say, provided it was authorized by the state.

I don't support free speech because it's the fashionable thing to
do.  Free speech is the basic right of all.  The content of that right is
irrelevant.

Now - you spending alot of time on the sex angle here.  I don't think you
understand what freedom of speech means.  If I were to tell you that I had
personal knowledge of the rape by canadian politicians and senior
bureacrats of young boys from fort lauderdale during the 60, 70, 80's -
and that these rapes and further investigation of those who abuse these
children is being intentionally suppressed by senior police officers and
law officers in Canada - how would you react to this?

Now here's the kicker.  I have all of that knowledge and I am prevented by
court order from exposing any of these people.  You can thank Judge
William Browne of the Ontario Court for that.

It's people like you who are willing to deny others rights who end up
taking away my rights to expose these political child molesters.

Would you like to follow up with the investigating officer in fort
lauderdale and verify this?  You talk a big talk Jodi - now do you have
the passion to walk the walk and help these former kids.  Just let me know
and I will phone someone who will forward you a URL.  We don't want to
break our court order you understand ;-)

regards
Joe Baptista

                                        http://www.dot.god/
                                        dot.GOD Hostmaster

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:

> You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
> Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
> referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
> boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
> intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
> 
> Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > 
> > You miss the point...  I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
> > That is immaterial.
> > 
> > I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
> > speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
> > responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.
> > 
> > jay
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > To: Jay Holovacs 
> > Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
> > ; 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > 
> > > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
> > the
> > > > same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> > > > advocate violence to children)
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> > > > protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> > > > murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> > > >
> > > > jay
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > > To: Lizard 
> > > > Cc: Declan McCullagh ;
> > ;
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > > > > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > > > > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > > > > differently.
> > >
> > > --
> > > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > > R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
> > >
> > > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> > >
> 
> -- 
> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> R.A.M.P.-Restore America�s Moral Pride
> 
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> 




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Sep 14 00:01:52 2000
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 03:01:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: surveillance tech lists?
Message-ID: <14581b00e2a6b3d6e22104da9608e95f@mixmaster.shinn.net>

Can anyone reccomend any email lists for discussing surveillance technology?

tia





From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Thu Sep 14 00:47:38 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 03:47:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:09:55 PDT."
              
Message-ID: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>


> >Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
> >by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
> >with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)
> 
> This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
> near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
> backfire.
 
> I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
> backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
> money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
> compound she hated so much.

Coeur D'Alene has a lot of tourism going on,
and you must not get out much.
I hear a backfire at least once a week in Boston.

If anything, after the incident the AN's neighbors 
might have decided to milk it for what it's worth.
AN has been depressing the tourism in the area and
many of the locals want their heads on stakes. A friend of mine's
cousin was there at the last march and some of the neighbors
were there hoping to get a few punches in Aryan noses
and then blame the ruckus on the JDL. The AN
has a charming rep around there.

> In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those 
> who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an 
> example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" 
> doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty 
> Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like.
> 
> I still say we should sue Operation Push for every asset it has. 
> Hymietown, indeed.

Oh, hell yes.

Sharpton and Jackson should both pay for
the damage and injuries they've incited in NYC.





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep 14 01:04:32 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:04:32 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <39BFFCDD.5659358B@acmenet.net>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913193300.009834a0@idiom.com>


>Tim May wrote:
>...
>> Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant
>> salary and retirement benefits.

That's why it was critical that Lee be guilty of *something*,
at least one charge, so he doesn't have a strong position for
suing the Feds for big bucks individually and organizationally.
He may still have some ability to do that, but I'd be surprised
if the plea bargain deal didn't address it somehow, even if it's
not in the part that's in the press.

>> This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary
>> William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss
>> of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his
>> home computer and leaving codeword material where his family,
>> housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.

Was that Perry, or Deutch?  I think I saw recently that Deutch _is_
getting his wrist slapped somewhat hard now.



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From solo0705 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 21:30:42 2000
From: solo0705 at hotmail.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:30:42 GMT
Subject: CDR: data
Message-ID: 

How about Nevada?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From emailoffer-reply at xoom.com  Thu Sep 14 04:53:14 2000
From: emailoffer-reply at xoom.com (Email Offer)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:53:14 -0700
Subject: CDR: (KMM16139539C0KM)
Message-ID: <200009141710.KAA15172@toad.com>

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From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep 14 01:53:50 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:53:50 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its hypocritical head
In-Reply-To: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000914015232.00a2c940@idiom.com>


>Lieberman: Entertainment Must
>            Police Itself or Else 
>            By Kalpana Srinivasan
>            Associated Press Writer
>
>            WASHINGTON (AP) - Sen. Joe Lieberman decried a
>            "culture of carnage" surrounding Americas young
>            people and told a Senate committee Wednesday that
>            the government should stop the marketing of violent
>            movies, music and video games to children if the
>            industry fails to police itself. 
> http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGI11ED63DC.html

Yep - all those commercials for "Be All You Can Be, Join The Army" and
"Join The Navy, See The World, Meet Interesting People and Kill Them", and
"Army Reserve - Spend Saturdays Keeping In Practice as a Trained Killer" and
all the war movies the Pentagon helps get made, and "COPS" tv shows, and
"The Drug War - Fix Moral and Health Problems By Declaring War" and its
related "Job Training and Practical Entrepreneurism For Inner-City Youth"
program,
both of which teach kids that violence is a good way to relate to your
neighbor -
in some cities, the training extends to franchising opportunities,
starting your own "Young Crips" neighborhood chapter.
There's also the "Starve Young Children By Economic Blockade" programs for
ridding the world of Hitler-of-the-year candidates that's worked so well,
and the "Be Afraid - Make More Anthrax Vaccine Before Terrorists Use It" gigs.

The government really *should* stop marketing those violent programs.
Themselves.
Before they mess with the (really large) motes in the movie businesses' eyes.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From taran at macroe.net  Thu Sep 14 05:01:42 2000
From: taran at macroe.net (taran at macroe.net)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:01:42
Subject: CDR: Read Only If Serious About A Six Figure Income...
Message-ID: <823.83011.348693@delivery>

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From Celebrations at photopoint.com  Wed Sep 13 23:57:58 2000
From: Celebrations at photopoint.com (Celebrations at photopoint.com)
Date: 14 Sep 2000 06:57:58 GMT
Subject: CDR: Celebrations - Your NEW Newsletter!
Message-ID: <20000914065445.BEA885BE8F@asa1.emarkethost.net>

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From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 14 07:47:24 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 07:47:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <008801c01e58$11d80920$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: 

Perhaps an analogy might help make the general case for support of free
speech.

We may not like what our neighbor is doing with his lawn or house. But it
is in our best interests, generally speaking, to defend his property
rights from new laws and regulations because tomorrow our home could be at
risk.

-Declan


On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jay Holovacs wrote:

> How many times do I have to say this. I am *not* protecting them. I am
> protecting free speech... my free speech, your free speech.
> 
> This is much more dangerous than you seem to realize. It's tempting to let
> them get 'theirs' because their ideas are ugly to many of us. But if they
> can be held liable for a vicious murder (which they did not advocate or
> instigate) on the part of someone who read their site... what keeps you from
> being held accountable for someone who reads your site then kills a gay?
> 




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep 14 05:24:41 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:24:41 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
References: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <39C0C2B8.1ABF60C0@ricardo.de>

"William H. Geiger III" wrote:
> >Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
> 
> >Middle school student arrested in
> > poisoning
> 
> Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic poisoning?


by requiring a catchy headline, I'd guess.





From MRDePalma at LyonLyon.com  Thu Sep 14 08:30:40 2000
From: MRDePalma at LyonLyon.com (DePalma,  Michele R.)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:30:40 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <0715816F31E5D11180E400805FBB717A830223@WPX>

Do you know of any science articles that were written that were not
accurate/correct?  My daughter needs an article, etc. for a school project.
Appreciate your help.  
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From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Sep 14 06:57:28 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:57:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Is kerberos broken? cpunk
Message-ID: 



> ----------
> From: 	David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com]
> Sent: 	Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:26 PM
> To: 	Trei, Peter; Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: 	RE: Is kerberos broken? cpunk
> 
> At 11:06 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
> >Here's an example of a good passphrase:
> >
> >"David grossly underestimates the ability of homo sapiens to memorize
> >and exactly reproduce long texts. An examination of American 
> >high school students ability to perform the Gettysburg Address is a
> >good counterexample."
> >
> >222 bytes, more or less. Even if we assume only 1bit of entropy per
> >character (it's ordinary english), that's a pretty tough space to search.
> >It's a safe bet that those two sentences have never been placed
> >together in all of human history before now, so there's no dictionary
> >to check.
> >
> >The problem is not that passphrases *can't* be made secure -
> >the problem is that most people are unwilling to use good ones. 
> >
> >Peter Trei
> 
> Well I'm flattered :-) and impressed.   I would be more impressed if
> e.g., you actually used such an entropic phrase, in real life.  Of course,
> we don't
> expect you reveal the actual length of your 'phrase.
> 
My passphrases are of substantial length. 

As for enterprise logins, 'we have a solution to that problem' :-)
http://www.rsasecurity.com/products/securid/

> I think you have convinced me, reinforcing something I've learned and
> propogated: convenience over security.  You have also reinforced something
> that fits with what I know of cog sci, and which gets to the limits of H.
> sapiens: you can only remember large things if they're structured
> 'meaningfully'.  Kasparov can't remember *random* chessboards better than
> you, only real ones.
> 
> DH, CSEE & Cog Sci '86
> 
It's interesting - structure reduces the entropy by making things
predictable,
but also makes them capable of memorization, despite non-trivial amounts
of remnant entropy. 

Peter










From bear at sonic.net  Thu Sep 14 09:58:39 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
>Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
>referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
>boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
>intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?


Madam, it has nothing to do with what the website promotes.  I think 
that a website which a browser can display ought to be protected 
speech.  

If nothing else, it will supply material for dozens of Ph.D theses 
in psychology.  And yes, given the choice between an absolute law 
protecting speech and a law which can be constantly reinterpreted 
depending on the feelings and intestinal gas of the judges and juries 
involved and the ability of one side or another to spin a tear-jerker, 
I'll take the absolute law any day of the week.  

But there's something more important going on here than that. 

You don't achieve a sane culture by refusing to permit the 
insane voices within it to speak.  You achieve a sane culture by 
learning to understand the insanity within it and putting it in 
a sane context.  And you can't do that if you shut 'em up. 

You're upset because people you disagree with have been given a 
voice.  You figure you speak for society at large here and you're 
defending "polite society's" monopoly on speech.  Well, I gotta 
tell you, "polite society's" monopoly on speech would never have 
tolerated me, a few years ago or in a different place, so I am 
predisposed to believe that monopoly is a bad idea.  

			Bear

I hate to quote myself, but right now it seems appropriate: 
---

 There have always been a number of perverts, libertines, harlots, sluts,
 philanderers, pornographers, and other persons of loose moral virtue in
 society.  But prior to the internet, it was much, much more difficult
 for us to locate and identify each other. -- Ray Dillinger







From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Thu Sep 14 07:05:07 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:05:07 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <001701c01e54$ca887300$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

> > >Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
> > >by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
> > >with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)
> > 
> > This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
> > near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
> > backfire.
>  
> > I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
> > backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
> > money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
> > compound she hated so much.
> 
> Coeur D'Alene has a lot of tourism going on,
> and you must not get out much.
> I hear a backfire at least once a week in Boston.

Most cars don't backfire, essentially it is a sign that the engine
is seriously out of tune. 

Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to
Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing
the local Nazi encampment.

What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs
off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon
is a reasonable or even a sensible response.


> > In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those 
> > who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an 
> > example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" 
> > doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty 
> > Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like.

The problem with the KKK, AN and other groups of thugs isn't 
what they say, it is what they do - beat people up. 

As for being PC, can anyone explain how an organization could
be less tollerant of opposing views than the AN?

        Phill




From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Thu Sep 14 08:21:27 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:21:27 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
Message-ID: <1d4e42d212a84a78ecbe02cc4cb36e68@anon.xg.nu>

Motyka quivered:

>I enjoy the rhetorical device of visiting death and destruction on the
>bad guys and clearly there is no shortage of politicians whose actual
>passing out of this life -by unspecified means- would make the world a
>safer, cleaner place but calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the
>mark. 0 points for that one. 


   What the fuck do you mean McVeigh isn't a freedom fighter? He's an
American national hero, most certainly the greatest freedom fighter in
the USA in recent memory! We need a McVeigh *everyday*!

     "If you want justice to grow, you've got to use a lot of fertilizer."





From holovacs at idt.net  Thu Sep 14 07:28:35 2000
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:28:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <008801c01e58$11d80920$1501a8c0@ang394>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jodi Hoffman 
To: Jay Holovacs 
Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
; 
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?


> You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.


How many times do I have to say this. I am *not* protecting them. I am
protecting free speech... my free speech, your free speech.

This is much more dangerous than you seem to realize. It's tempting to let
them get 'theirs' because their ideas are ugly to many of us. But if they
can be held liable for a vicious murder (which they did not advocate or
instigate) on the part of someone who read their site... what keeps you from
being held accountable for someone who reads your site then kills a gay?

What keeps a book author or film director from being criminalized because
some sicko copycats an incident they describe?

This has nothing to do with protecting them, regardless of what they
believe. It is enlightened self interest.

jay





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 14 08:41:30 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:41:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000913193300.009834a0@idiom.com>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 4:04 AM -0400 9/14/00, Bill Stewart wrote:
>  >Tim May wrote:
>>...
>>>  Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant
>>>  salary and retirement benefits.
>
>That's why it was critical that Lee be guilty of *something*,
>at least one charge, so he doesn't have a strong position for
>suing the Feds for big bucks individually and organizationally.
>He may still have some ability to do that, but I'd be surprised
>if the plea bargain deal didn't address it somehow, even if it's
>not in the part that's in the press.
>
>>>  This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary
>>>  William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss
>>>  of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his
>>>  home computer and leaving codeword material where his family,
>>>  housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.
>
>Was that Perry, or Deutch?  I think I saw recently that Deutch _is_
>getting his wrist slapped somewhat hard now.

You may be right. It may be Deutch, not Perry. I get those two guys 
confused all the time.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From craig at onshore.com  Thu Sep 14 12:40:11 2000
From: craig at onshore.com (Craig Brozefsky)
Date: 14 Sep 2000 12:40:11 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: Jodi Hoffman's message of "Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:57:09 -0400"
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
	<39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
	<39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
	<39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <87r96mpxt0.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>

Jodi Hoffman  writes:

> You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
> Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
> referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
> boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
> intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?

Having read over parts of the NAMBLA site months ago when the URL was
floating around the office as a joke, I saw nothing of the sort Jodi
is claiming.  It was a very straightforward and well-written site that
had no really racey content.  It was quite pedestrian in nature,
consisting mostly of discussions of anti-sex legislation, age of
consent issues, and social stigmatization of homosexual relations
between partners of different generations.  It would be well below the
pervert radar of most of the United States for sure, since in terms of
sexual relations it was much less detailed and evocative than your
common Sex Ed textbook.  In fact, the raciest comments are those from
boys who wrote in about their experiences, all between the age of
13-18, often having been involved in abusive relations prior to
meeting what they call a "boy lover".

If the words "Sex before eight, or it's too late" appear anywhere, it
would certainly not be in the context of their motto, more likely a
sarcastic comment, or a quote about what people like Jodi think they
are.  Jodi is talking out her ass here.  I can't fathom the hatred she
must have in order to make up something so ridiculous.

Of course now Jodi and others going to put me in their dirty pedo file
for daring to speak out in defense of NAMBLA.  I'm not gay myself, but
I remember the pain that several classmates in High School had to deal
with when coming to terms with their sexuality and the way that
society treated them.  Isolated, villified, and often suicidal, is no
way for a kid to grow up.

Anyways, for those who want to confirm for yourself, check out:

http://www.attrition.org/mirror/attrition/2000/04/11/www.nambla.org-1/

For a laugh, check out the hacked version:

http://www.attrition.org/mirror/attrition/2000/04/11/www.nambla.org/

It's ironic that a site for archiving hacked websites is the first
mirror of the NAMBLA site I find when doing a google search.

I suggest that those who wanted to do mirroring of the site grab it
from there ASAP.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Sep 14 11:08:30 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:08:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: film c meltdown imminent
Message-ID: <9a4c79f5cae2e1c94f1763dbf5f4c697@melontraffickers.com>

The authors of FlasKMPEG have come across a program called
 FlasKMPEG DeCSS.
   We want to express very clearly that such program or any other
 derived from the original is no way related with the official
 FlasKMPEG project in any way. FlasKMPEG sources are available
 under the GPL license and its totally out of our responsibility the
 legal implications caused by the modifications or variations from other
 developers performed over our code. 
http://www.citeweb.com/flaskmpeg/







From wb8foz at nrk.com  Thu Sep 14 11:09:26 2000
From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:09:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
Message-ID: <200009141809.OAA02159@sigma.nrk.com>


JUDGE PARKER Dr. Lee, you have pled guilty to a serious crime. It's
a felony offense. For that you deserved to be punished. In my
opinion, you have been punished harshly, both by the severe
conditions of pretrial confinement and by the fact that you have
lost valuable rights as a citizen.

Under the laws of our country, a person charged in federal court
with commission of a crime normally is entitled to be released from
jail until that person is tried and convicted. Congress expressed
in the Bail Reform Act its distinct preference for pretrial release
from jail and prescribed that release on conditions be denied to
a person charged with a crime only in exceptional circumstances.

The executive branch of the United States government has until
today actually, or just recently, vigorously opposed your release
from jail, even under what I had previously described as draconian
conditions of release.

During December 1999, the then-United States attorney, who has
since resigned, and his assistants presented me, during the
three-day hearing between Christmas and New Year's Day, with
information that was so extreme it convinced me that releasing you,
even under the most stringent of conditions, would be a danger
to the safety of this nation. The then-United States attorney
personally argued vehemently against your release and ultimately
persuaded me not to release you.

In my opinion and order that was entered Dec. 30, 1999, I stated
the following: "With a great deal of concern about the conditions
under which Dr. Lee is presently being held in custody, which
is in solitary confinement all but one hour of the week, when
he is permitted to visited his family, the court finds, based on
the record before it, that the government has shown by clear and
convincing evidence that there is no combination of conditions
of release that would reasonably assure the safety of any other
person and the community or the nation."

After stating that in the opinion, I made this request in the
opinion right at the end: "Although the court concludes that
Dr. Lee must remain in custody, the court urges the government
attorneys to explore ways to lessen the severe restrictions
currently imposed upon Dr. Lee while preserving the security of
sensitive information."

I was very disappointed that my request was not promptly heeded
by the government attorneys.

After December, your lawyers developed information that was
not available to you or them during December.  And I ordered
the executive branch of the government to provide additional
information that I reviewed, a lot of which you and your attorneys
have not seen.

With more complete, balanced information before me, I felt
the picture had changed significantly from that painted by the
government during the December hearing. Hence, after the August
hearing, I ordered your release despite the continued argument
by the executive branch, through its government attorneys, that
your release still presented an unacceptable extreme danger.

I find it most perplexing, although appropriate, that the executive
branch today has suddenly agreed to your release without any
significant conditions or restrictions whatsoever on your
activities. I note that this has occurred shortly before the
executive branch was to have produced, for my review in camera,
a large volume of information that I previously ordered it
to produce.

>From the beginning, the focus of this case was on your motive or
intent in taking the information from the secure computers and
eventually downloading it on to tapes. There was never really
any dispute about your having done that, only about why you did it.

What I believe remains unanswered is the question: What was the
government's motive in insisting on your being jailed pretrial
under extraordinarily onerous conditions of confinement until
today, when the executive branch agrees that you may be set free
essentially unrestricted? This makes no sense to me.

A corollary question I guess is: Why were you charged with the
many Atomic Energy Act counts for which the penalty is life
imprisonment, all of which the executive branch has now moved to
dismiss and which I just dismissed?

During the proceedings in this case, I was told two things:
first, the decision to prosecute you was made at the highest
levels of the executive branch of the United States Government
in Washington, D.C.

With respect to that, I quote from a transcript of the Aug. 15,
2000, hearing, where I asked this question.  This was asked
of Dr. Lee's lawyers: "Who do you contend made the decision
to prosecute?"

Mr. Holscher responded: "We know that the decision was made at
the highest levels in Washington. We know that there was a meeting
at the White House the Saturday before the indictment, which was
attended by the heads of a number of agencies. I believe the No. 2
and No. 3 persons in the Department of Justice were present. I
don't know if the attorney general herself was present. It was
actually held at the White House rather than the Department
of Justice, which is, in our view, unusual circumstances for
a meeting."

That statement by Mr. Holscher was not challenged.

The second thing that I was told was that the decision to prosecute
you on the 39 Atomic Energy Act counts, each of which had life
imprisonment as a penalty, was made personally by the president's
attorney general.

In that respect, I will quote one of the assistant U.S. attorneys,
a very fine attorney in this case this was also at the Aug. 15
hearing. This is talking about materials that I ordered to be
produced in connection with Dr. Lee's motion relating to selective
prosecution. The first category of materials involved the January
2000 report by the Department of Energy task force on racial
profiling: "How would that in any way disclose prosecutorial
strategy?"

Miss Fashing responded: "That I think falls more into the category
of being burdensome on the government. I mean if the government if
we step back for just a second I mean the prosecution decision and
the investigation in this case, the investigation was conducted
by the F.B.I., referred to the United States attorney's office,
and then the United States attorney's office, in conjunction
with well, actually, the attorney general, Janet Reno, made the
ultimate decision on the Atomic Energy Act counts."

Dr. Lee, you're a citizen of the United States and so am I, but
there is a difference between us. You had to study the Constitution
of the United States to become a citizen. Most of us are citizens
by reason of the simple serendipitous fact of our birth here. So
what I am now about to explain to you, you probably already know
from having studied it, but I will explain it anyway.

Under the Constitution of the United States, there are three
branches of government. There is the executive branch, of which
the president of the United States is the head. Next to him is the
vice president of the United States. The president operates the
executive branch with his cabinet, which is composed of secretaries
or heads of the different departments of the executive branch. The
vice president participates in cabinet meetings.

In this prosecution, the more important members of the president's
cabinet were the attorney general and the secretary of the
Department of Energy, both of whom were appointed to their
positions by the president.

The attorney general is the head of the United States Department
of Justice, which despite its title, is a part of the executive
branch, not a part of the judicial branch of our government.

The United States Marshal Service, which was charged with
overseeing your pretrial detention, also is a part of the executive
branch, not the judicial branch.

The executive branch has enormous power, the abuse of which can
be devastating to our citizens.

The second branch of our national government is the legislative
branch, our Congress. Congress promulgated the laws under which
you were prosecuted, the criminal statutes. And it also promulgated
the Bail Reform Act, under which in hindsight you should not have
been held in custody.

The judicial branch of government, of which I am a member, is
called the third branch of government because it's described in
Article III of our Constitution.

Judges must interpret the laws and must preside over criminal
prosecutions brought by the executive branch.  Since I am not a
member of the executive branch, I cannot speak on behalf of the
president of the United States, the vice president of the United
States, their attorney general, their secretary of the Department
of Energy or their former United States attorney in this district,
who vigorously insisted that you had to be kept in jail under
extreme restrictions because your release pretrial would pose a
grave threat to our nation's security.

I want everyone to know that I agree, based on the information
that so far has been made available to me, that you, Dr. Lee,
faced some risk of conviction by a jury if you were to have
proceeded to trial. Because of that, I decided to accept the
agreement you made with the United States executive branch under
Rule 11(e)(1)(C) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.

Further, I feel that the 278 days of confinement for your offense
is not unjust; however, I believe you were terribly wronged by
being held in custody pretrial in the Santa Fe County Detention
Center under demeaning, unnecessarily punitive conditions. I am
truly sorry that I was led by our executive branch of government
to order your detention last December.

Dr. Lee, I tell you with great sadness that I feel I was led astray
last December by the executive branch of our government through
its Department of Justice, by its Federal Bureau of Investigation
and by its United States attorney for the district of New Mexico,
who held the office at that time.

I am sad for you and your family because of the way in which you
were kept in custody while you were presumed under the law to be
innocent of the charges the executive branch brought against you.

I am sad that I was induced in December to order your detention,
since by the terms of the plea agreement that frees you today
without conditions, it becomes clear that the executive branch
now concedes, or should concede, that it was not necessary to
confine you last December or at any time before your trial.

I am sad because the resolution of this case drug on unnecessarily
long. Before the executive branch obtained your indictment on
the 59 charges last December, your attorney, Mr. Holscher, made
a written offer to the office of the United States attorney to
have you explain the missing tapes under polygraph examination.

I'll read from that letter of Dec. 10, 1999. I quote from that
letter:

"Dear United States Attorney Kelly and First Assistant Gorence:
I write to accept Mr. Kelly's request that we provide them with
additional credible and verifiable information which will prove
that Dr. Lee is innocent. On the afternoon of Wednesday, Dec. 8,
Mr. Kelly informed me that it was very likely that Dr. Lee will
be indicted within the next three to four business days. In our
phone conversation, Mr. Kelly told me that the only way that we
could prevent this indictment would be to provide a credible and
verifiable explanation of what he described as missing tapes.

"We will immediately provide this credible and verifiable
explanation. Specifically we are prepared to make Dr. Lee
immediately available to a mutually agreeable polygraph examiner
to verify our repeated written representations that at no time
did he mishandle those tapes in question and to confirm that he
did not provide the tapes to any third party.

"As a sign of our good faith, we will agree to submit Dr. Lee to
the type of polygraph examination procedure that has recently been
instituted at the Los Alamos Laboratory to question scientists. It
is our understanding that the government has reaffirmed that this
new polygraph procedure is the best and most accurate way to verify
that scientists are properly handling classified information."

At the inception of the December hearing, I asked the parties
to pursue that offer made by Mr. Holscher on behalf of Dr. Lee,
but that was to no avail.

MR. STAMBOULIDIS Your Honor, most respectfully, I take issue with
that. There has been a full record of letters that were sent back
and forth to you, and Mr. Holscher withdrew that offer.

JUDGE PARKER Nothing came of it, and I was saddened by the fact
that nothing came of it. I did read the letters that were sent
and exchanged. I think I commented one time that I think both
sides prepared their letters primarily for use by the media and
not by me. Notwithstanding that, I thought my request was not
taken seriously into consideration.

Let me turn for the moment to something else. Although I have
indicated that I am sorry that I was led by the executive branch to
order your detention last December, I want to make a clarification
here. In fairness, I must note that virtually all of the lawyers
who work for the Department of Justice are honest, honorable,
dedicated people, who exemplify the best of those who represent
our federal government.

Your attorney, Mr. Holscher, formerly was an assistant United
States attorney. The new United States attorney for the district
of New Mexico, Mr. Norman Bay, and the many assistant United States
attorneys here in New Mexico and I include in this Mr. Stamboulidis
and Mr. Liebman, who are present here today have toiled long
hours on this case in opposition to you. They are all outstanding
members of the bar, and I have the highest regard for all of them.

It is only the top decision makers in the executive branch,
especially the Department of Justice and the Department of Energy
and locally, during December, who have caused embarrassment by
the way this case began and was handled. They did not embarrass
me alone. They have embarrassed our entire nation and each of us
who is a citizen of it.

I might say that I am also sad and troubled because I do not
know the real reasons why the executive branch has done all of
this. We will not learn why because the plea agreement shields
the executive branch from disclosing a lot of information that
it was under order to produce that might have supplied the answer.

Although, as I indicated, I have no authority to speak on behalf
of the executive branch, the president, the vice president, the
attorney general, or the secretary of the Department of Energy,
as a member of the third branch of the United States Government,
the judiciary, the United States courts, I sincerely apologize
to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner you were held in custody
by the executive branch.



-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep 14 05:23:49 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:23:49 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com> 
Message-ID: <39C0C355.FA19DECF@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
> >The defendants have no lawyers and are proceeding in pro se.  The
> >sites may be gone Friday night if the judge rules against them.
> >
> 
> More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that this is the real
> crime: not hiring lawyers.

in a world run by lawyers, not paying your road fees is, of course, a
crime.




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Sep 14 11:26:21 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:26:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000914142049.02dfa310@popserver.panix.com>

At 04:16 PM 9/13/00 +0000, Phaedrus wrote:

>Sheeple, who don't think defensively. Even for their kids
>
>oh, don't get me wrong, a convicted child molester moving into town, or
>maybe an 'obscene' website, they'll scream about -- but they don't think
>about real danger

For example, 90% of sheeple send their children to government mind 
destruction facilities to have their minds destroyed.

You may have seen ads which show mothers driving their innocents to these 
institutions in Volvos (supposedly because they want to keep them 
safe).  Better they should drive their kids in old VW Beetles and keep them 
away from facilities designed to brain damage their offspring.

DCF

----
"I wake up every morning worrying about your children" -- Bill Clinton (1992).
I sincerely hope not because if he does worry about my children he might 
feel compelled to do something about them and the resulting fire fight 
would cause significant collateral damage in the neighborhood.




From rabbi at quickie.net  Thu Sep 14 14:52:13 2000
From: rabbi at quickie.net (L. Sassaman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I've been running an anonymous remailer since DefCon, when a certain
speaker motivated me to set one up. I get on average 1 threat of bodily
harm and 3 threats of lawsuits per day because of this.

To attempt to answer the question "why do you run a remailer", I put up
the page http://www.melontraffickers.com/remailer.html.

This seems to have the effect of further annoying those who would have
anonymous remailers outlawed.

I don't enjoy the fact that some people are being harassed through my
remailer. But I cannot prevent that without limiting the effectiveness of
the remailer. 

Have there been any court rulings that define the level of liability for
remops whose remailers are used to facilitate criminal actions?

Is someone like myself, running a public remailer, considered an ISP? (I'm
thinking of the Prodigy ruling, where Prodigy was deemed not responsible
for content posted on its BBS system.)

- --Len.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Perhaps an analogy might help make the general case for support of free
> speech.
> 
> We may not like what our neighbor is doing with his lawn or house. But it
> is in our best interests, generally speaking, to defend his property
> rights from new laws and regulations because tomorrow our home could be at
> risk.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jay Holovacs wrote:
> 
> > How many times do I have to say this. I am *not* protecting them. I am
> > protecting free speech... my free speech, your free speech.
> > 
> > This is much more dangerous than you seem to realize. It's tempting to let
> > them get 'theirs' because their ideas are ugly to many of us. But if they
> > can be held liable for a vicious murder (which they did not advocate or
> > instigate) on the part of someone who read their site... what keeps you from
> > being held accountable for someone who reads your site then kills a gay?
> > 
> 

__

L. Sassaman

Security Architect             |  "Lose your dreams and you
Technology Consultant          |   will lose your mind."
                               |   
http://sion.quickie.net        |       --The Rolling Stones



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From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 14 08:10:34 2000
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:10:34 GMT
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: 

Phill Hallam-Baker writes:
>The problem with the KKK, AN and other groups of thugs isn't what they say, 
>it is what they do - beat people up.
>
>As for being PC, can anyone explain how an organization could
>be less tollerant of opposing views than the AN?

Perhaps not less tolerant, but certainly more dangerous: by having
government as its enforcer.  This is why folks are disturbed by the
lawsuits against NAMBLA and the like.  Not that most of us have any
use for them or their philosophy, but that the folks suing them are
in effect using the power of government to "beat them up".

- GH

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 18:42:23 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:42:23 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
 <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914153910.00d2ded0@flex.com>

At 02:09 PM 13/09/00 -0700, Tim May wrote:

 >I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_
 >backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of
 >money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the
 >compound she hated so much.

A vehicle badly out of tune will backfire, as will a vehicle whose driver 
turns the motor off for a few seconds, then turns the ignition back on as 
the vehicle rolls down the road.  This works better in vehicles with manual 
transmissions.  unburnt fuel flushed through the exhaust system ignites at 
once, resulting in a very noticeable backfire-like noise.

While no vehicle you've ever owned has ever backfired, you say, this does 
mean other vehicles are free from the phenomena.

Nice ad hominem, btw.




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 19:21:24 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:21:24 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914153910.00d2ded0@flex.com>
References: 
 <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
 <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914162048.00d99ad0@flex.com>

At 03:42 PM 14/09/00 -1000, Reese wrote:
 >At 02:09 PM 13/09/00 -0700, Tim May wrote:
 >
 > >I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_
 > >backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of
 > >money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the
 > >compound she hated so much.
 >
 >A vehicle badly out of tune will backfire, as will a vehicle whose driver
 >turns the motor off for a few seconds, then turns the ignition back on as
 >the vehicle rolls down the road.  This works better in vehicles with manual
 >transmissions.  unburnt fuel flushed through the exhaust system ignites at
 >once, resulting in a very noticeable backfire-like noise.
 >
 >While no vehicle you've ever owned has ever backfired, you say, this does
 >mean other vehicles are free from the phenomena.

d'oh.  NOT.  This does NOT mean other vehicles are free from,,,

 >Nice ad hominem, btw.
 >
 > 




From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 14 13:39:04 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:39:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party - Sept. 21
In-Reply-To: <200009132018.QAA12093@iang.zks.net>
References: <200009132018.QAA12093@iang.zks.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> 	The Big RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party
> 	A fundraiser for the Cryptorights Foundation
> 	(http://www.cryptorights.org/)
> 	September 21, 2000
> 	8PM-2AM

This is going to be great... In theory, at least, one could start in
Boston after work at 5:30 EDT on Wednesday, talk through your teeth while
munching canapes over evening cocktails at the Hahvid Club dahling, jump
on a plane, fly west all night, stay up all the next day, and party all
Thursday night in San Francisco. Ending up, of course, on the floor
somewhere with your feet in the sky and, um, Xes in your eyes, some 30(?)
hours later at 2AM PDT.

Riiight.

Of course, there *are* people threatening to come to Boston from Europe
on the 20th, and, having done something that crazy already, *they* might
be up for something as biochronically challenging, but not me, nooooo....

Cheers,
RAH
A tired old poop who's not at all jealous that *their* party's gonna be
waay cooler than *our* party, but who still can't help but observe that
*we're* raising money for a *sponsor* of *their* party, either.  It was
ever thus, though, and all for very good causes on both accounts,
certainly.


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-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 19:41:40 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:41:40 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <001701c01e54$ca887300$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914161844.00d31ae0@flex.com>

Still crossposting liberally, I see.

At 10:05 AM 14/09/00 -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

 >Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to
 >Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing
 >the local Nazi encampment.

My own differences with Tim aside, what proof do you have that Tim
drives past Nazi encampments?  Decry his "statistics abuse" while an
equally underhanded conjecture emerges from your addled backside?

 >What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs
 >off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon
 >is a reasonable or even a sensible response.

Defending racism?  Please show where the defendants in the lawsuit
were shown to possess such an implement.  It wasn't mentioned in
this thread, nor do
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/99/01/st012717.html or other, similar
stories cover this little factoid.  I remember reading about this
lawsuit when the story first broke, this is the first I've heard that
a loaded, recently fired weapon was found in the Keenan vehicle.

Great Scott!!!  The loaded, recently fired weapon wasn't an SKS,
possibly resembling the one fired at the Keenan vehicle, was it?

 >As for being PC, can anyone explain how an organization could
 >be less tollerant of opposing views than the AN?

I've heard academia could give them a good run for their money.




From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 14 13:45:14 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:45:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 1:19 PM -0700 on 9/13/00, Tim May wrote:


> The big news today was the announcement that human habitation remains
> have been found where the Ryan and Pitman theory predicted.

Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was
dry at one time, with an equivalent event (well of type, it was by
definition, larger) at Gibraltar, though, it seems to me that it was
sometime very much closer to the last ice age than the events described in
today's news.

There was some discussion at the time that *that* was the cause of the
flood myth, but this recent discovery is clearly a much more memorable
event, in terms of human history and especially its closer proximity to the
advent of writing.

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From jstanford at gotfreemail.net  Thu Sep 14 17:40:26 2000
From: jstanford at gotfreemail.net (jstanford at gotfreemail.net)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: new directions
Message-ID: <200009150040.RAA22127@cyberpass.net>


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From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Thu Sep 14 16:14:59 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:14:59 -0400
Subject: CDR: fun and games with SDMI
Message-ID: 

Linux users say SDMI contest a trick 

     By Lisa M. Bowman, ZDNet News

     Some Linux lovers say the record industry is using them
     as a free consulting service to improve SDMI encryption.

     Some members of the Linux community are rejecting the
     record industrys request to help it create a more secure technical lock on its
     digital music.

     The Linux Journal is sponsoring a boycott of the Secure Digital Music Initiative hacking
     challenge, which starts Friday and promises to pay $10,000 to any hacker who strips out
     the watermark from a digital song.

                     SDMI is a technology initiative launched by the record companies
                     to crack down on piracy. In the coming weeks, SDMI will try out a
                     variety of security measures, with plans to eventually adopt a
                     hacker-tested technology that will prevent people from playing
                     bootleg songs on SDMI-compatible hardware.

                     However, some Linux lovers say the record industry is only using
                     the hackers as a "free consulting" service to help it crack down on
                     legal uses of music in the future, in an attempt to exert
                     unprecedented control over when and where people play songs.

                     The Linux Journal is urging readers to sign a letter saying they wont
                     play along.

     "Thanks, SDMI, but no thanks. I wont do your dirty work for you," the letter states. "I
     will not help test programs or devices that violate privacy or interfere with the right of fair
     use."

     People who sign the letter will agree that they will never make a bootleg copy of a
     recording, but will only play one copy at a time in different devices, an action thats legal
     under the concept of fair use, but may be hard to follow in these days of rampant digital
     file swapping.

     In a sense, the open sharing of information that has allowed the Linux community to
     mushroom is directly at odds with the motives of traditional entertainment companies,
     which want to lock down their content.

     PR stunt

     Ironically, the entertainment industry in the past has sued people whove tried to reverse
     engineer their encryption technology -- the same act SDMI is now asking them to perform
     during the hacking contest.

     Linux Journal technical editor Don Marti, one of the boycotts organizers, said the goal is
     to thwart what he called "SDMIs PR stunt."

     "Why are freedom-loving people supposed to do free consulting work for an organization
     that wants to take away our freedom?" he asked.

     SDMI officials were not immediately available for comment.






From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Thu Sep 14 16:15:29 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:15:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: MP3.com yanks DeCSS sourcecode sung
Message-ID: <0SFWMU4O36783.8050462963@anonymous.poster>


  MP3.com yanks song with illegal
  DVD-hacking code 
  By Corey Grice
  Staff Writer, CNET News.com
  September 13, 2000, 7:25 p.m. PT 

  Joseph Weckers song about a binary computer code wasnt exactly a
  chart-topper, but he doesnt think MP3.com should have banned it. 

  The popular music Web site today removed the song, in which Wecker,
  sounding more than a little like a 1960s sit-in protester, sings a version of
  the banned computer code known as DeCSS. 

                  In an email to Wecker, MP3.com cited the nature of
                  the music lyrics for the songs eradication. "Your
                  song has either a song title or lyrics that are
                  offensive or otherwise inappropriate," the company
                  wrote. 

                  "Since there is a precedent holding (2600.com)
                  culpable for posting the code, we felt it was in our
                  best interest to remove it," an MP3.com spokesman
                  said in an interview. 

                  The Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA)
                  has filed lawsuits seeking to outlaw the code, calling
                  it a hack of its DVD encryption scheme aimed at
                  making and distributing illegal copies of digital films.
                  A federal judge in New York last month agreed,
                  banning hacker publication 2600.com from
                  publishing or linking to the code online. 

  The song, called DeCSS.MP3, offers an English-language rendition of
  computer code that, depending on whom you ask, is either a harmless
  exercise in experimental software engineering or a missile aimed at the
  heart of Hollywood. Either way, DeCSS has become a flash point in the
  head-on collision between digital technologies and copyright owners, much
  as Napster has for the music industry. 

  The programmers who wrote the code insist DeCSS was designed to play
  legally purchased movie DVDs on computers running the Linux operating
  system--a format not supported by the movie industry. They say the code is
  a form of speech and is protected by the First Amendment--a claim many
  DeCSS supporters have rushed to validate by churning out artistic and
  other nonfunctioning works based on the DeCSS source code. 

  Wecker said he sang the DeCSS code
  as a way to attract attention to the
  issue. 

  "Its gone one step too far," Wecker
  said. "Its illegal to photocopy a
  copyrighted poem. But now its like it
  has become illegal to tell someone
  how the Xerox works." 

  Other protesters have published
  portions of DeCSS on T-shirts and
  have recorded dramatic readings of
  the code. Some have used the code to
  create images in graphics files.
  Pro-DeCSS supporters say these
  demonstrations dont contain the full
  source code necessary to decode a
  DVD, a popular digital home movie
  format. 

  "I find it very disturbing that I live in a country where singing source code
  may be technically illegal--kind of chilling," Wecker said. "My song is just
  like the T-shirts. The T-shirts dont even have enough code to decode a
  DVD." 

  MP3.com, meanwhile, is wrestling with its own copyright troubles. A federal
  judge last week found that the company willfully infringed the copyrights of
  Universal Music Group in creating an online database of some 80,000 CDs
  for use with its My.MP3.com music locker service. The company could be
  on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in damages. 






From apoio at giganetstore.com  Thu Sep 14 11:49:27 2000
From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:49:27 +0100
Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F3_at=E9_ao_fim_de_Setembro?=
Message-ID: <00d042749180e90WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore>

  
    
Gosta de partilhar as coisas boas da vida com os seus amigos?
Então porque não reenviar-lhes este mail ?
E já agora aproveite as ofertas que a giganetstore.com
  tem para si, só até ao fim de Setembro
1 - Netpin Grátis 


2 - Por cada compra efectuada oferecemos-lhe:
* Um Cartão Teleweb com 10 min. em chamadas 
*Um EasyNet Teleweb com 1.000$00 em chamadas


3 - Isenção de Portes 

Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Sep 14 18:12:34 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:12:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

> Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was
> dry at one time, with an equivalent event (well of type, it was by
> definition, larger) at Gibraltar, though, it seems to me that it was
> sometime very much closer to the last ice age than the events described in
> today's news.

Actualy it's been dry several times. The Med is in a 'salinity crisis'.
The most recent time the Atlantic broke through at Gibralter there was a
waterfall that was several thousand feet high. The mean level of the Med
is lower even today than the Atlantic with a net flow into the Med.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Thu Sep 14 17:26:53 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:26:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its head
In-Reply-To: Tim May's message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:25:29 -0400"
References: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <84ya0uo5zc.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Tim May  writes:

> I will look forward to watching the coverage. Do you plan to take out 
> just the censorious bitch Lynne Cheney, or also her censorious 
> husband and VP candidate?
> 
> And then there's Al Gore (RAT) and his running mate (JEW RAT).
> 
> (Subliminal messages brought to you by the Republican Party).
> 
> Interesting that 3 out of the 4 top rats--Cheney, Gore, 
> Lieberman--have their own censorious attacks on speech, or have 
> spouses who lead such attacks. Lynne, Tipper, and   Lieberman 
> himself. I wonder why Bush is being left out? Maybe it'll be like 
> Nixon in China: the only one of the four not calling for repeal of 
> the First Amendment will be the one who pulls the trigger.

Some attorney (RAT) has filed suit against the entertainment industry
over the shooting in Peduchah, Kentucky. Right now he's doing the talk
radio circuit, trying to drum up support. (I suppose to cause such a
public outcry that the judge feels strongarmed to rule in his favor,
and to taint juries.) 

The central argument appears to be that the entertainment industry has
marketted their products, which happen to contain violence and sex, to
the people who are their biggest consumers: people under 18. But
because they're under the magic age of 18, they apparently aren't
responsible for blowing away their classmates; the computer game
companies are.

The quantity of bogus claims, lies, distortions, and general bullshit
the guy was spreading is too large for me to list them all, and after
a while they kind of blend into one big blob of bullshit anyway, but
I'll go over some of the more notable ones.

1) Contrary to whatever this attorney and other power-hungry censors
   would like us all to believe, the fact that most of these school
   shooters have played violent video games and seen violent movies
   does not mean that the movies were to blame. "But *ALL* of them
   have!" Yeah, and all of them probably ate chicken at some point in
   the month before their rampages too. The fallacy is obvious. As far
   as I know, nobody has bothered to counter the obvious question:
   Isn't it more likely that the people who have a predisposition to
   violence just tend to be drawn to this media, especially
   considering that there are millions of people out there who use it
   but *aren't* killing people?

2) He quickly tried to make some point that when a child (again,
   defined as someone under 18, or 17, as the case may be) sees
   "violent or sexually-explicit" images, there is some change in the
   brain. So he mentions some Harvard University study, but doesn't
   bother to give a useable citation (journal name, author, date...),
   which, he claims, showed "increased blood flows to the amygdala"
   using MRI in "children," but not in adults. 

   A) I have "increased blood flows" when I have a pulsating headache
   too. I have "increased blood flows" whenever my heart rate and
   blood pressure increase. I'm not a neurologist, but I'd figure that
   that doesn't mean anything neurologically. It dosen't even mean
   that there's enhanced activity in that region. 
 
   B) Wouldn't it make more sense to just slip the subjects
   radioactive glucose, wait a few minutes, and then do a PET scan?
   That way you can actually tell which neurons are firing? (When a
   neuron generates an action potential, it doesn't use any
   energy. It uses it when it recovers. So when a neuron fires a lot,
   it sucks in a lot of glucose, which means that the radioactive
   glucose winds up in the neurons, which means that it's held there,
   which means that you can see it on a PET scan.)

   C) Neurological structure changes *do* occur. They occur when I
   watch violent and sexually-explicit movies. They also change when I
   sit on the toilet, eat food, do a math problem, listen to music, or
   walk across the room. It's called learning. The fact that
   neurological structure changes in people exposed to this is
   meaningless. Do a behavoral study, then it might have some
   validity. 

   D) Why would you use an MRI in this case _at all_?

   E) Even increased activity does not imply psychological or
   neurological changes. It means that the neurons are firing. That's
   all. 

   This indicates that either:
     
     A) The researchers were purposefully trying to obscure data.

     B) The stupid attorney, and by extension probably the stupid judge,
     is trying to pull one over on the intentionally-stupid jury and
     voluntarily-stupid public, by distorting a biomedical study. 

3) When another attorney called in and challenged him with the obvious
   statement that it isn't the entertainment industry's problem but
   rather the shooter's and the shooter's parents, the plantiff's
   attorney retorted with a purposeful and direct distortion and
   asked: "It's the fault of the parents of the three little girls who
   were shot?" What happened after that was fairly unintelligable,
   while the plantiff's attorney proceeded to talk over the
   caller. 

4) Why can't people accept that shit happens and that sometimes you
   *can't* go blame everyone in sight? I don't hear of anyone suing
   any of the following:

    * The public school system in the area: The shooter most likely
      had a history of behavoral problems, yet they put him in the
      general population. Therefore, along the same line of thinking
      that this guy is using (but at a position closer to sanity) he
      should be suing the public schools.
    * Anybody who ever passed laws restricting the ability of the
      students who were shot at to themselves have a gun. (No, I don't
      necessarily think that they should have had one, but even *this*
      would be saner than suing the movie and computer game
      industries.) 

5) His ethical justification for filing this lawsuit, which he knows
   is ridiculous, is that if the movie industry isn't found at fault
   and sued, the government will impose what he calls "draconian
   censorship laws."

6) If violent and sexually-explicit imagery and games are *really* so
   inherently dangerous, then why aren't the millions and millions of
   *other* people out there who have watched it or played them out
   there killing people? 

7) Why can't we place the blame where it belongs: On the shooter?





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 14 20:57:57 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:57:57 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
Message-ID: 

At 4:45 PM -0400 9/14/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>At 1:19 PM -0700 on 9/13/00, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>>  The big news today was the announcement that human habitation remains
>>  have been found where the Ryan and Pitman theory predicted.
>
>Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was
>dry at one time, with an equivalent event (well of type, it was by
>definition, larger) at Gibraltar, though, it seems to me that it was
>sometime very much closer to the last ice age than the events described in
>today's news.

It's well-established that the Mediterranean inundation was more than 
10 million years ago. Apples and oranges, archaeologically or 
anthropologically speaking.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 14 21:37:50 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:37:50 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party - Sept. 21
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009132018.QAA12093@iang.zks.net>
 
Message-ID: 

At 4:39 PM -0400 9/14/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>	The Big RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party
>>	A fundraiser for the Cryptorights Foundation
>>	(http://www.cryptorights.org/)
>>	September 21, 2000
>>	8PM-2AM
>
>This is going to be great... In theory, at least, one could start in
>Boston after work at 5:30 EDT on Wednesday, talk through your teeth while
>munching canapes over evening cocktails at the Hahvid Club dahling, jump
>on a plane, fly west all night, stay up all the next day, and party all
>Thursday night in San Francisco. Ending up, of course, on the floor
>somewhere with your feet in the sky and, um, Xes in your eyes, some 30(?)
>hours later at 2AM PDT.
>
>Riiight.
>
>Of course, there *are* people threatening to come to Boston from Europe
>on the 20th, and, having done something that crazy already, *they* might
>be up for something as biochronically challenging, but not me, nooooo....

I find far more joy in reading a book, eating a meal, drinking a good 
bourbon, riding my bicycle in Monterey, or hanging out in my recliner 
and surfing the Net while watching a movie on HBO...than I would in 
popping MDMA or whatever it is they do and dancing in a trance to 
some DJ making records go backwards.

The fact that _all_ of the so-called music entertainers at the SF 
event are "trancers" is...symptomatic...of something.

I hope they have fun.

Feh.


--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 18:43:48 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:43:48 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
In-Reply-To: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>
References: <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914154300.00dd2b10@flex.com>

At 05:38 PM 13/09/00 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
 >In <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892 at melontraffickers.com>, on 09/13/00
 >   at 12:59 PM, "A. Melon"  said:
 >
 >>Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
 >
 >>Middle school student arrested in
 >> poisoning
 >
 >Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic
 >poisoning?

Same way you get "construction engineer" from ditch digger, or "sanitation
engineer" from garbage collector.





From mailmaster at Tpage.com  Thu Sep 14 05:59:59 2000
From: mailmaster at Tpage.com (Tpage.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:59:59 +0900
Subject: CDR: Tpage Newsletter - A Leader in Global B2B Trade
Message-ID: <200009141259.VAA31359@liger.tpage.com>

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From mailmaster at Tpage.com  Thu Sep 14 06:00:00 2000
From: mailmaster at Tpage.com (Tpage.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:00:00 +0900
Subject: CDR: Tpage Newsletter - A Leader in Global B2B Trade
Message-ID: <200009141300.WAA31362@liger.tpage.com>

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From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 14 19:01:29 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:01:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: 
Message-ID: <39C182F9.A0F@attglobal.net>

If you're serious, send it.  We own a law firm.  Furthermore, a lot of 
the cases we handle are pro bono, especially when children are involved. 
  We would help in any way we can.  What you say doesn't surprise me.  

!Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
> 
> People don't seem to understand what free speech is all about.  You might
> be interested in knowing Jodi that Hitlers Germany had one of the most
> progressive free speech policies in the world.  You could say whatever you
> wanted to say, provided it was authorized by the state.
> 
> I don't support free speech because it's the fashionable thing to
> do.  Free speech is the basic right of all.  The content of that right is
> irrelevant.
> 
> Now - you spending alot of time on the sex angle here.  I don't think you
> understand what freedom of speech means.  If I were to tell you that I had
> personal knowledge of the rape by canadian politicians and senior
> bureacrats of young boys from fort lauderdale during the 60, 70, 80's -
> and that these rapes and further investigation of those who abuse these
> children is being intentionally suppressed by senior police officers and
> law officers in Canada - how would you react to this?
> 
> Now here's the kicker.  I have all of that knowledge and I am prevented by
> court order from exposing any of these people.  You can thank Judge
> William Browne of the Ontario Court for that.
> 
> It's people like you who are willing to deny others rights who end up
> taking away my rights to expose these political child molesters.
> 
> Would you like to follow up with the investigating officer in fort
> lauderdale and verify this?  You talk a big talk Jodi - now do you have
> the passion to walk the walk and help these former kids.  Just let me know
> and I will phone someone who will forward you a URL.  We don't want to
> break our court order you understand ;-)
> 
> regards
> Joe Baptista
> 
>                                         http://www.dot.god/
>                                         dot.GOD Hostmaster
> 
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> > You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
> > Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
> > referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
> > boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
> > intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
> >
> > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > >
> > > You miss the point...  I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
> > > That is immaterial.
> > >
> > > I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
> > > speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
> > > responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.
> > >
> > > jay
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > To: Jay Holovacs 
> > > Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
> > > ; 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
> > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > >
> > > > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
> > > the
> > > > > same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> > > > > advocate violence to children)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> > > > > protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> > > > > murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> > > > >
> > > > > jay
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > > > To: Lizard 
> > > > > Cc: Declan McCullagh ;
> > > ;
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > > > > > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > > > > > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > > > > > differently.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > > > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > > > R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
> > > >
> > > > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > > > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > > > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > > > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride
> >
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> >

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 14 19:15:31 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:15:31 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
	 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
	 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>

petro wrote:
> 
> >You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
> >Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
> >referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
> >boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
> >intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
> 
>         Prove it.
> 
>         Produce the documentation that makes that claim.
> 
>         Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or
> have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).
> --
> A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
> Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government
> of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
> Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let
> history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural

Give me your telefax number and load your machine with paper.  I'm 
waiting.
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From njohnson at interl.net  Thu Sep 14 20:32:06 2000
From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:32:06 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: 
Message-ID: <011501c01ec5$86db8d60$0100a8c0@nandts>


Of course being considered an ISP or "provider" may mean you have to comply
with CALEA and provide LEO's wiretap access.

Between a rock and a hard place ?

Of course wiretap access to data encrypted elsewhere wouldn't do anyone much
good.
Maybe traffic analysis.

Neil M. Johnson
njohnson at interl.net
http://www.interl.net/~njohnson
PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7  CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC

----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Sassaman" 
To: 
Cc: "Jay Holovacs" ; "Jodi Hoffman"
; ;

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I've been running an anonymous remailer since DefCon, when a certain
> speaker motivated me to set one up. I get on average 1 threat of bodily
> harm and 3 threats of lawsuits per day because of this.
>
> To attempt to answer the question "why do you run a remailer", I put up
> the page http://www.melontraffickers.com/remailer.html.
>
> This seems to have the effect of further annoying those who would have
> anonymous remailers outlawed.
>
> I don't enjoy the fact that some people are being harassed through my
> remailer. But I cannot prevent that without limiting the effectiveness of
> the remailer.
>
> Have there been any court rulings that define the level of liability for
> remops whose remailers are used to facilitate criminal actions?
>
> Is someone like myself, running a public remailer, considered an ISP? (I'm
> thinking of the Prodigy ruling, where Prodigy was deemed not responsible
> for content posted on its BBS system.)
>
> - --Len.
>
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> > Perhaps an analogy might help make the general case for support of free
> > speech.
> >
> > We may not like what our neighbor is doing with his lawn or house. But
it
> > is in our best interests, generally speaking, to defend his property
> > rights from new laws and regulations because tomorrow our home could be
at
> > risk.
> >
> > -Declan
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jay Holovacs wrote:
> >
> > > How many times do I have to say this. I am *not* protecting them. I am
> > > protecting free speech... my free speech, your free speech.
> > >
> > > This is much more dangerous than you seem to realize. It's tempting to
let
> > > them get 'theirs' because their ideas are ugly to many of us. But if
they
> > > can be held liable for a vicious murder (which they did not advocate
or
> > > instigate) on the part of someone who read their site... what keeps
you from
> > > being held accountable for someone who reads your site then kills a
gay?
> > >
> >
>
> __
>
> L. Sassaman
>
> Security Architect             |  "Lose your dreams and you
> Technology Consultant          |   will lose your mind."
>                                |
> http://sion.quickie.net        |       --The Rolling Stones
>
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Comment: OpenPGP Encrypted Email Preferred.
>
> iD8DBQE5wUiWPYrxsgmsCmoRAuapAKDUQEz8mN67NnioFD2Q2YP/Gfe4zwCgwFZE
> 6ncZVIbwMu5a7dL2ASr2NQY=
> =5U53
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>




From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Thu Sep 14 19:49:28 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:49:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
In-Reply-To: Lizard's message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:41:46 -0400"
References: <3.0.5.32.20000913193627.0394b4b0@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <84u2binzdz.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Lizard  writes:

> At 10:40 PM 9/13/00 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: 
> 
> The company is claiming breach of franchise agreement by franchisees who
> are supposedly  saying unkind things about it.  It is also claiming that
> the domain names newworldcoffefraud.com and newworldfraud.com are likely to
> confuse innocent surfers looking for coffee.
> =======
> Why, yes! When I want to look at the wares of company "X", I often go to
> www.companyxsucks.com, or www.companyxripoff.com!
> 
> Any judge who buys that line of reasoning should be impeached, on the
> grounds our Founding Fathers did not intend that the judiciary be populated
> by fungus.

Hey, now. Some of these incompetent judges are slime molds, and some
are even amoeba. Most aren't vertibrates, in any case. On the other
hand, some members of the fungus kingdom are probably more competent
than the judges in these recent cases.






From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 14 20:11:48 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:11:48 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <775d6f2d7626609e9baa1ebccca08e85@anonymous>
Message-ID: <39C19374.6635@attglobal.net>

Secret Squirrel wrote:
> 
> Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> > If you're serious, send it.  We own a law firm.  Furthermore, a lot of
> > the cases we handle are pro bono, especially when children are involved.
> 
> You "own" a law firm, eh?  Big surprise there.

Why a surprise?
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Sep 14 20:22:29 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:22:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000914200810.00914320@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:53 PM 9/14/00 -0400, L. Sassaman wrote:
>
>I don't enjoy the fact that some people are being harassed through my
>remailer. But I cannot prevent that without limiting the effectiveness of
>the remailer. 
>
>Have there been any court rulings that define the level of liability for
>remops whose remailers are used to facilitate criminal actions?
>
>Is someone like myself, running a public remailer, considered an ISP? (I'm
>thinking of the Prodigy ruling, where Prodigy was deemed not responsible
>for content posted on its BBS system.)
>

Shouldn't your remailer include 1. mention of what it is 2. how to exclude
an address
from being a destination?  

It has not yet reached the supremes, nor do I imagine you want to fund that
path.
We can only hope your upstreams have as much backbone as you.











From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Sep 14 20:42:08 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:42:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20000914161844.00d31ae0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <39C19A79.8749230B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

Reese wrote:

> Still crossposting liberally, I see.
>
> At 10:05 AM 14/09/00 -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>  >Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to
>  >Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing
>  >the local Nazi encampment.
>
> My own differences with Tim aside, what proof do you have that Tim
> drives past Nazi encampments?  Decry his "statistics abuse" while an
> equally underhanded conjecture emerges from your addled backside?
>
>  >What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs
>  >off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon
>  >is a reasonable or even a sensible response.
>
> Defending racism?  Please show where the defendants in the lawsuit
> were shown to possess such an implement.  It wasn't mentioned in
> this thread, nor do
>

     I think you are misunderstanding what he wrote -- and then you
further confuse the issue with this "defendants....shown to possess"
statement. The AN were the defendants, they clearly did have guns.
However, what I understood Phil to be saying is that the defendants
story about them thinking they were being fired upon, and then chasing
after the car, doesn't make a lot of sense. Would you chase after a car
carrying unkown number of enemy with unkown firepower who had just done
a driveby shooting with you as the target?
       Shoot back at them from behind a safe position, yes, and maybe
chase them if you had an APC, but you'd have to be pretty stupid to run
after them otherwise. And Phil isn't saying that the woman and her kid
had a gun at all, but just that the AN tried to BS everyone with that
story.






From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 20:55:34 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:55:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C19A79.8749230B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914174612.00d34f00@flex.com>

At 11:42 PM 9/14/2000 -0400, Harmon Seaver wrote:
 >Reese wrote:
 >
 >> Still crossposting liberally, I see.
 >>
 >> At 10:05 AM 14/09/00 -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
 >>
 >>  >Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to
 >>  >Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing
 >>  >the local Nazi encampment.
 >>
 >> My own differences with Tim aside, what proof do you have that Tim
 >> drives past Nazi encampments?  Decry his "statistics abuse" while an
 >> equally underhanded conjecture emerges from your addled backside?
 >>
 >>  >What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs
 >>  >off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon
 >>  >is a reasonable or even a sensible response.
 >>
 >> Defending racism?  Please show where the defendants in the lawsuit
 >> were shown to possess such an implement.  It wasn't mentioned in
 >> this thread, nor do
 >>
 >
 >     I think you are misunderstanding what he wrote -- and then you
 >further confuse the issue with this "defendants....shown to possess"
 >statement. The AN were the defendants,

Oops, you are correct.  The AN are the defendants, the occupants of the
vehicle that backfired are the plaintiffs.  Brainfart.

 >they clearly did have guns.
 >However, what I understood Phil to be saying is that the defendants
 >story about them thinking they were being fired upon, and then chasing
 >after the car, doesn't make a lot of sense. Would you chase after a car
 >carrying unkown number of enemy with unkown firepower who had just done
 >a driveby shooting with you as the target?

You assume they should act, think rationally, by your definition of the word.

 >       Shoot back at them from behind a safe position, yes, and maybe
 >chase them if you had an APC, but you'd have to be pretty stupid to run
 >after them otherwise. And Phil isn't saying that the woman and her kid
 >had a gun at all, but just that the AN tried to BS everyone with that
 >story.

Aye, noted.  Please take note of the US Army response to sudden machinegun 
fire from a bunker, and the US Marine response to it.  Marines have a lower 
life-expectancy in the field for a damn good reason, and while I have no 
way of knowing what prior .mil experience any of those AN members might 
have, I'm not about to assume they would not go charging after a vehicle, 
guns blazing, should they think the occupants of that vehicle had been 
shooting at them.





From petro at bounty.org  Fri Sep 15 00:06:32 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 00:06:32 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>	
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>	
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>	
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>	
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> 
 <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

>petro wrote:
>>
>>  >You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
>>  >Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
>>  >referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
>>  >boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
>>  >intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
>>
>>          Prove it.
>>
>>          Produce the documentation that makes that claim.
>>
>>          Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or
>>  have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).

	There is this thing called "The internet". It's a wonderful 
method for spreading (dis-) information.

	Scan them, compress them, and mail them to me.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 14 21:47:04 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 00:47:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its head
In-Reply-To: <84ya0uo5zc.fsf@athena.dhis.org>
References: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 

At 8:26 PM -0400 9/14/00, David Marshall wrote:
>
>Some attorney (RAT) has filed suit against the entertainment industry
>over the shooting in Peduchah, Kentucky. Right now he's doing the talk
>radio circuit, trying to drum up support. (I suppose to cause such a
>public outcry that the judge feels strongarmed to rule in his favor,
>and to taint juries.)

There are a bunch of these kinds of cases in the U.S. today. Suits 
against gun makers, against Hollywood studios ("Natural Born 
Killers," for example), against record companies, etc.

It used to be that one was held responsible for one's own actions. 
These suits are going forward because, as so many folks have pointed 
out, we are a "victimization society." "He made me do it!" "Twinkies 
caused me to kill." "Colt made the weapons, so they should pay."

I have no patience with such arguments. (I have little patience in general.)

Strong crypto will mean punishment is ultimately delivered to the 
tens of millions who need to be dealt with.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net  Thu Sep 14 20:05:01 2000
From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel)
Date: 15 Sep 2000 03:05:01 -0000
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: <775d6f2d7626609e9baa1ebccca08e85@anonymous>

Jodi Hoffman wrote:

> If you're serious, send it.  We own a law firm.  Furthermore, a lot of 
> the cases we handle are pro bono, especially when children are involved. 

You "own" a law firm, eh?  Big surprise there.




From baptista at pccf.net  Fri Sep 15 01:06:12 2000
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 04:06:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C182F9.A0F@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

Thank you.  I will get this information to you promptly.  I have to ask a
third person to do it for me.  Thank you very much Judi and God bless you.

regards
Joe Baptista

                                        http://www.dot.god/
                                        dot.GOD Hostmaster

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:

> If you're serious, send it.  We own a law firm.  Furthermore, a lot of 
> the cases we handle are pro bono, especially when children are involved. 
>   We would help in any way we can.  What you say doesn't surprise me.  
> 
> !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
> > 
> > People don't seem to understand what free speech is all about.  You might
> > be interested in knowing Jodi that Hitlers Germany had one of the most
> > progressive free speech policies in the world.  You could say whatever you
> > wanted to say, provided it was authorized by the state.
> > 
> > I don't support free speech because it's the fashionable thing to
> > do.  Free speech is the basic right of all.  The content of that right is
> > irrelevant.
> > 
> > Now - you spending alot of time on the sex angle here.  I don't think you
> > understand what freedom of speech means.  If I were to tell you that I had
> > personal knowledge of the rape by canadian politicians and senior
> > bureacrats of young boys from fort lauderdale during the 60, 70, 80's -
> > and that these rapes and further investigation of those who abuse these
> > children is being intentionally suppressed by senior police officers and
> > law officers in Canada - how would you react to this?
> > 
> > Now here's the kicker.  I have all of that knowledge and I am prevented by
> > court order from exposing any of these people.  You can thank Judge
> > William Browne of the Ontario Court for that.
> > 
> > It's people like you who are willing to deny others rights who end up
> > taking away my rights to expose these political child molesters.
> > 
> > Would you like to follow up with the investigating officer in fort
> > lauderdale and verify this?  You talk a big talk Jodi - now do you have
> > the passion to walk the walk and help these former kids.  Just let me know
> > and I will phone someone who will forward you a URL.  We don't want to
> > break our court order you understand ;-)
> > 
> > regards
> > Joe Baptista
> > 
> >                                         http://www.dot.god/
> >                                         dot.GOD Hostmaster
> > 
> > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> > 
> > > You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
> > > Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
> > > referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
> > > boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
> > > intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
> > >
> > > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You miss the point...  I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
> > > > That is immaterial.
> > > >
> > > > I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
> > > > speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
> > > > responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.
> > > >
> > > > jay
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > > To: Jay Holovacs 
> > > > Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
> > > > ; 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > > >
> > > > > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
> > > > the
> > > > > > same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> > > > > > advocate violence to children)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> > > > > > protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> > > > > > murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > jay
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > > > > To: Lizard 
> > > > > > Cc: Declan McCullagh ;
> > > > ;
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > > > > > > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > > > > > > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > > > > > > differently.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > > > > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > > > > R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
> > > > >
> > > > > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > > > > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > > > > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > > > > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> > > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > > R.A.M.P.-Restore America�s Moral Pride
> > >
> > > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> > >
> 
> -- 
> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> R.A.M.P.-Restore America�s Moral Pride
> 
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> 




From emc at chao.insync.net  Fri Sep 15 08:05:12 2000
From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 08:05:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: SWAT Team Guns Down 11 Year Old In His Own Home
Message-ID: <200009151505.KAA74452@chao.insync.net>

http://www.modbee.com/metro/story/0,1113,194747,00.html

An 11-year-old Modesto boy was fatally shot early Wednesday morning
when police SWAT team officers on a federal narcotics sweep raided his
parents' home. Police said the shooting was an accident.
   
Alberto Sepulveda, a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary
School, was pronounced dead in his home at 2524 McAdoo Ave., just east
of Highway 99 in the north Modesto neighborhood commonly known as
Highway Village. He died from one shotgun round to the back, Police
Chief Roy Wasden said.

...

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From planetit-announcements at update.planetit.com  Fri Sep 15 05:34:12 2000
From: planetit-announcements at update.planetit.com (PlanetIT Announcements)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 08:34:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: New Roundtables On Planet IT
Message-ID: 

Dear Planet IT Member:

It's time for Planet IT's newest Roundtables! Join industry experts and fellow IT professionals to get mission-critical IT solutions today: http://update.planetit.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=efY0BEqN70Ly0iWZ

Here are the new Roundtables, listed by Planet IT Technology Center. All are ready for you to join now.

Advanced IP Services: "Advanced Networks: Only As Good As The Infrastructure." Led by Brian Chee, director of the University of Hawaii's advanced network computing lab. New cabling standards can affect the bottom line. Discover the hidden costs of network upgrades, as well as which upgrades work best with which products.
http://update.planetit.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=efY0BEqN70Ly0iXa

Careers/Training: "Severance In The Dot-Com Age." Led by Alan S. Horowitz, author of "The Unofficial Guide to Hiring and Firing People." Dot-com job loss is up 40 percent this year, so it's probably a good time to learn the basics of severance packages. How does dot-com severance compare with that at traditional companies? Should companies offer severance when they're struggling just to keep the doors open? If you're a part of the Internet economy, this discussion is vital.
http://update.planetit.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=efY0BEqN70Ly0iYb
 
Data Management: "The Future of Data Mining." Led by Herb Edelstein, data-mining expert and president of Two Crows Corp. Where are data-mining technologies headed? Where can these new tools be best used? Whether you're a data-mining novice or an old hand, join this Roundtable and learn more.
http://update.planetit.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=efY0BEqN70Ly0iZc

Linux: "The Multi-Tier Enterprise and Linux." Led by Alex Samonte, chief engineer at SiteSmith Inc. Linux is moving into sites with multi-tier architectures and co-locations, and performance, scalability, and availability are becoming key issues. But Linux still lacks database integration and other high-end features. What will it take to push it to the next level?
http://update.planetit.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=efY0BEqN70Ly0iaj
 
Mobile Computing: "Can Cell Phones Kill?" Led by Penelope Stetz, consultant and author of "The Cell Phone Handbook." Are the microwaves generated by cell phones a risk to your workers' health? Is your company vulnerable to litigation? Are employees at risk when they talk on the phone while driving? Post a question or comment to this Roundtable, and you'll be eligible to win a free copy of Penelope Stetz's book.
http://update.planetit.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=efY0BEqN70Ly0ibk

Networking: "The Changing Face Of Intelligent Content Networking." Led by John Pappas, director of technical marketing at Enterasys Networks. Customers running complex networks need switches that can handle the job -- from balancing traffic loads and managing bandwidth to caching URLs and data. And hardware vendors are responding, offering devices boasting a laundry list of features.
http://update.planetit.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=efY0BEqN70Ly0icl

New Economy: "The Digital Economy Demands A New Business Model." Led by Don Tapscott, David Ticoll, and Alex Lowy, chairman, CEO, and managing partner, respectively, of Digital 4Sight, and co-authors of "Digital Capital: Harnessing The Power of Business Webs." High-quality data, an agile salesforce, and innovative marketing don't determine success anymore. The Business Web -- an elaborate network of suppliers, distributors, service providers, and customers -- does, and it's destroying the old models of wealth creation. Is your company ready? 
http://update.planetit.com/cgi-bin4/flo?y=efY0BEqN70Ly0idm

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From sigint at mindspring.com  Fri Sep 15 09:02:35 2000
From: sigint at mindspring.com (T. Bankson Roach)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:02:35 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>


"Jodi Hoffman"  sez:

> You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
> Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
> referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
> boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
> intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
>

This is EXACTLY why nobody should try and censor their free speech!
There are too many people who would say nobody could be sick , crazy, or
despicable enough to advocate grown men having anal sex with an 8 year
old boy. Let NAMBLA have their Web site so people can see just how
disgusting they are. The purpose of free speech is to make us aware of
what people REALLY think and feel. That's always good. What if people
had known that butchers like Mao Tse Dung, Joe Stalin, Pol Pot and their
ilk, really DID think it was OK to butcher millions? Then maybe a few of
those damn fool left leaning dilberts would have thought twice before
lining up to follow these butchers. As for Hitler, well it isn't because
he didn't have the guts to tell people EXACTLY what he had in mind for
various groups of people. So what is the liberal's idea of how to deal
with this? Yes, it's to censor Mein Kampf! Then people can't read for
themselves Hitler's outspoken plans and beliefs. At least Hitler was
destroyed; the three communists I just mentioned are still held in
reverence by millions of leftwingers across the globe. They still try to
cover up their brutal plans with silly crap about the beloved "masses".

Of course we now live in the gutless wimpy age of the politically
correct, so what can you expect. Nobody today dare say that cramming
your penis up another man's feces filled ass might not be a good health
plan during the AIDS epidemic, which they are horrified to admit started
as a direct result of such filth covered "fun". Now people fear earning
the pervert's wrath.

Does anybody with half a brain not realize that is exactly why NAMBLA is
taking an activist approach? As soon as Hollywood churns out some
"stars" who advocate sex with boys, or babies, well far too many of the
public will soon be demanding the right to assault the children. Why, it
won't be long before they say it should be the right of the pervert to
marry the child. The "gays" are living proof of how Hollywood, liberals,
and perverts can convert what were once considered a horrible sickness
to an idealized and respected life style.

Today, if you kill somebody the liberals want to know why. If it's a fag
killing a Nazi, he might get a pass. If it's a Nazi killing a fag,
forget the trial and lynch them, whoops, make that sue them! As the
great George Orwell once said in Animal Farm, his lampoon of leftist
twaddle, "Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others"
[sic?]. I am sorry to say that if allowed to present their beliefs, it
is possible that NAMBLA might win win the favor of today's brain dead
public. Well, so be it. Nobody with half a brain ever said we shouldn't
suffer the consequences of our own idiocy.

America used to be about free speech. It was at one time considered one
of the great principles that separated us from the other nations. In
England, a country we wisely separated ourselves from, you are now
forbidden to send an encrypted message to a friend without fearing
imprisonment if you fail to provide the government with the "key" to the
message. Screw King George. Real freedom of speech  means you can scream
"fire" in a crowded theater. People should look around for smoke and
flames and, if present, then proceed in an orderly fashion for the exit.
Instead, the new idea is to deny the fire and burn quietly.

Sorry, it's time to go watch Will and Grace. Can't happen here? It
already has. Repeat after me "Four legs good, two legs bad!"

Tom Roach





From my90000page at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 15 09:03:50 2000
From: my90000page at hotmail.com (50,000 in 90 days)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:03:50
Subject: CDR: Sent Respectably 50,000 in 90 Days
Message-ID: <20000915150438.GKPV26058.mail2.rdc2.ab.home.com@mail.cgws1.ab.wave.home.com>

  This is not spam. You have at one point requested information on
  Internet business opportunities. However if you do wish to be removed
  from this list simply follow the instructions located at the bottom
  of the page. Thank you

  However!!

  This is the only E-mail that you will receive from me.

  Dear Friend:
  You may have seen this incredibly easy money making system before
  and not thought twice about it and simply deleted it. For that is
  what I did at least have a dozen times. Finally on the 7th or 8th
  time I received the program curiosity got the best of me and I invested
  my $20.00 and followed the instructions given. To my amazement
  within a 6 week period I had received back over $40,000.
  You to can earn $40,000 - $50,000 or more in the next 90 days
  simply sending e-mail.Honestly it really is not impossible. So please
  do not delete, and do read on for details and remember there is no
  "catch" this is for real!!
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------

  ---------------------------

  "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V."

  Thank you for your time and Interest.
  This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately.

  Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major
  nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the
  investigation of the program described below to see, if it really
  can make people money.

  The show also investigated whether or not the program was
  legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are,
  absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program.
  This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless
  and fun way to make some extra money at home.

  The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many
  people are participating that those involved are doing, much
  better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as
  more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of
  lately. You will understand once you experience it.

  "HERE IT IS BELOW"

  ================================================
  ================================================

  *** Print This Now For Future Reference ***

  The following income opportunity is one you may be
  interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY
  LITTLE investment and the income return is
  TREMENDOUS!!!

  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90
  days! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT
  AGAIN!!!

  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING
  OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into
  contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you
  never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you
  believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've
  been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions,
  and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order
  marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. E-
  mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this
  non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The
  longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using
  e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!!

  MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained
  respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business
  School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street
  Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods
  and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the
  mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of
  the 500,000 millionaires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made
  their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover,
  statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday
  through Multi-Level Marketing.

  You may have heard this story before, but over the summer
  Donald Trump made an appearance on the David Letterman
  show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost
  everything and had to start over from scratch. Without
  hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network
  marketing company and get to work. The audience started
  to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and
  dead-panned his response - "That's why I'm sitting up here
  and you are all sitting out there!"

  With network marketing you have two sources of income.
  Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and
  commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the
  business.

  Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means
  investing time or money once and getting paid again and
  again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting
  paid for the work of others.

  The enclosed information is something I almost let slip
  through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read
  everything and gave some thought and study to it.

  My name is Johnathon Rourke. Two years ago, the
  corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized
  and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job
  interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the
  past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I
  owed my family, friends and creditors over $35,000. The
  economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't
  seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow
  against my home to support my family and struggling
  business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant
  happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience
  in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER
  FINANCIALLY!!!

  In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six
  month's prior to receiving this program I had been sending
  away for information on various business opportunities. All of
  the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost
  effective. They were either too difficult for me to
  comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to
  risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I
  would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me
  I'd have to write a book to make it!

  But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this
  program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my
  name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!
  After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it
  correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY
  MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I
  wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I
  got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get
  my money back. But like most of you I was still a little
  skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all.
  So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-
  2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal!
  After determining the program was LEGAL and NOT A
  CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT."

  Initially I sent out 10,000 E-mails. It cost me about $15 for my
  time on-line. The great thing about E-mail is that I don't need
  any money for printing to send out the program, and because
  all of my orders are fulfilled via E-mail, the only expense is my
  time. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off,
  but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no
  matter how much money it cost me.

  In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for
  REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 orders for
  REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20
  ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU
  DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"
  My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By
  January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.
  Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR
  REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT
  MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE
  100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL
  MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for
  REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and
  relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received
  $58,000 with more coming in every day.

  I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.
  Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL
  CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't
  work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must
  follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place
  your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out
  on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you
  must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and
  100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or
  more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!

  If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It
  really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If
  you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be
  on your way to financial security.

  If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble
  like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider
  this a sign. I DID!

  Sincerely,

  Johnathon Rourke

  P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000)
  look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

  A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:

  By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports,
  you should have concluded that such a program, and one
  that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur.

  Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable
  business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began
  falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously
  successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it
  out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and
  recession had replaced the stable economy that had been
  with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened
  to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from
  first hand experience. There were more failures and
  bankruptcies than ever before.

  The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what
  they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who
  did not, including those who never had anything to save or
  invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the
  saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR
  GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money
  will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will
  see to that.

  You have just received information that can give you
  financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and
  "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more
  money in the next few months than you have ever imagined.
  I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this
  money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for
  this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION
  DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out
  over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices that make
  this and several other programs here and over seas.

  Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not
  change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.
  Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone
  you can think of. One of the people you send this to may
  send out 50,000...and your name will be on everyone of
  them! Remember though, the more you send out the more
  potential customers you will reach.

  So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
  materials and opportunity to become financially independent,
  IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

  "THINK ABOUT IT"
  Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost
  did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT
  IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when
  YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and
  no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of
  money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any
  doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in.
  IT WORKS!
  Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA

  HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE
  YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$

  INSTRUCTIONS:

  This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100%
  EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or
  more in the next 90 days. Before you say "BULL... ", please
  read this program carefully.

  This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
  opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all
  multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting
  new partners and selling our products. Every state in the
  USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners,
  and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR
  ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so
  you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in
  your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-
  Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

  This is what you MUST do:

  1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell
  them if you don't order them).

  * For each report, send $5.00 U.S CASH, the NAME &
  NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING,
  YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME &
  RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the
  person whose name appears on the list next to the
  report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS
  ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL
  PROBLEMS!

  * When you place your order, make sure you order each
  of the four reports. You will need all four reports so
  that you can save them on your computer and resell
  them.

  * Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of
  the four reports. Save them on your computer so they
  will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of
  people who will order them from you.

  2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people
  who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on
  the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps
  "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your
  profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll
  also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember,
  this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not
  work.

  a. Look below for the listing of available reports.

  b. After you've ordered the four reports, take this
  advertisement and remove the name and address under
  REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle
  and is no doubt counting their $50,000!

  c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down
  to REPORT #4.

  d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down
  to REPORT #3.

  e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down
  to REPORT #2.

  f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

  Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY!

  3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names,
  and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the
  instruction portion of this letter.

  4. Now you're ready to start an advertising campaign on the
  WORLDWIDE WEB! Advertising on the WEB can be
  very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of
  FREE places to advertise. Another avenue which you
  could use for advertising is e-mail lists. You can buy these
  lists for under $20/2,000 addresses or you can pay
  someone to take care of it for you. BE SURE TO START
  YOUR AD CAMPAIGN IMMEDIATELY!

  5. For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail
  them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS
  PROVIDE SAME- DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!
  This will help guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out,
  with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt
  because they can't advertise until they receive the report!
  To grow fast be prompt and courteous.

  ------------------------------------------
  AVAILABLE REPORTS
  ------------------------------------------
  ***Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

  Notes:
  - ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH FOR EACH REPORT
  - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA THE QUICKEST
  DELIVERY
  - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least
  two sheets of paper
  - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number &
  name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address,
  and (c) your postal address.
  ________________________________________________
  REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

  ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

  L.Williams
  Westhills RPO, Box #75083
  Calgary, Alberta, Canada,
  T3H-3M1
  (additional postage may be required when mailing to Canada)
  _______________________________________________
  REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

  ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

  Oniram
  2397 Sinclair Circle
  Burlington, Ontario, Canada,
  L7P 3C3
  (additional postage may be required when mailing to Canada)
  ________________________________________________
  REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

  ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

  Mike Vogelius
  4736 Frantz Court apt#1
  Winter Park. Fl. 32792
  U.S.A
  ________________________________________________
  REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

  ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

  Sunshyn
  114 Woodcreek Lane
  Appling GA. 30802
  U.S.A
  ________________________________________________
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
  HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------

  ---------

  Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it
  works. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on
  your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will
  EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone
  else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline
  members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING
  results below.

  1st level--your 10 members with $5.....................$50
  2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)........$500
  3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)...$5,000
  4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5x10,000).$50,000
  THIS TOTALS ------> $55,550

  Remember friends, this assumes that the people who
  participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment
  what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Lots
  of people get 100s of participants! THINK ABOUT IT!

  Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely
  you can afford $20). You obviously already have an Internet
  connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT#3 shows you the
  most productive methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-
  mail lists. Some list & bulk e-mail vendors even work on
  trade!

  About 50,000 new people get online every month!

  *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS*******

  * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt,
  professional, and follow the directions accurately.

  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have
  them when the orders start coming in because:

  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the
  requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal &
  Lottery Laws, Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18,
  Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs.
  vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product
  or service must be exchanged for money received."

  * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE
  ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

  * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow
  the instructions exactly, the results WILL undoubtedly be
  SUCCESSFUL!

  * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW
  YOU WILL SUCCEED!

  *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE*******

  Follow these guidelines to help assure your success:

  If you don't receive 10 to 20 orders for REPORT #1 within
  two weeks, continue advertising until you do. Then, a
  couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders
  for REPORT #2. If you don't, continue advertising until you
  do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for
  REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is
  already working for you, and the cash can continue to roll in!

  THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:

  Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are
  placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP
  TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report
  people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more
  income, send another batch of e-mails and start the whole
  process again! There is no limit to the income you will
  generate from this business!

  PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business,
  registering a business name, learning how income tax is
  handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business
  Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free
  help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue
  Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars
  about business tax requirements. Your earnings and results
  are highly dependent on your activities and advertising. This
  letter constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the
  event that it is determined that this letter constitutes a
  guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. Any
  testimonials or amounts of earnings listed in this letter may be
  factual or fictitious. If you have any question of the legality of
  this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for
  Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of
  Consumer Protection in Washington DC.

  *******T E S T I M O N I A L S*******

  This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!
  Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a
  different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of
  potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a
  great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little
  cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the
  program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial
  security.
  Sean McLaughlin, Jackson, MS

  My name is Frank. My wife, Doris, and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I
  am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I
  make pretty good money. When I received the program I
  grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of
  the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population
  and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris
  totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with
  both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay
  the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work...
  well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she had
  received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had
  received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was
  sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a
  believer now. I have joined Doris in her "hobby." I did have
  seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race"
  and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM.
  Frank T., Bel-Air, MD

  I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement
  to you. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first
  orders come in. I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to
  verify that the plan was legal. It definitely is! IT
  WORKS!!!
  Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

  The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this
  system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to
  get a large amount of money in a short time. I was
  approached several times before I checked this out. I joined
  just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal
  effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received
  $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming

  Phillip A. Brown, Esq.

  Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
  make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative
  that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that
  there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at
  least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found
  my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For a
  while, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my
  mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any
  10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is
  that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There
  simply isn't a better investment with a faster return.
  Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI

  I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I
  wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had
  no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait
  until I was E-mailed another program...11 months passed then
  it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000
  on the first try!!
  D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN

  This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit
  our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off
  the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this
  plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for
  your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity.
  Good luck and happy spending!
  Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA

  ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND
  GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO
  FINANCIAL FREEDOM!

  NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN

  DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS
  POWERFUL RESULTS
  ==================================================================
  FEEL FREE TO VISIT MY WEBSITE AT : 
  http://www.freehomepages.com/workfromhome/
  SOME GREAT WAYS FOR PROMOTING THE MONEY MAKING PROGRAM
  ==================================================================
  To be REMOVED from this list type REMOVE in the subject area of
  a new e-mail and send to: msperic1 at netscape.net




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Sep 15 09:27:37 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:27:37 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>
 <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 
 <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000915092737.00986890@idiom.com>

By the way, if Jody only wants to fax the document,
and Petro only wants to receive it by email,
Petro can set up a JFAX.COM account which will
accept faxes and email them to him (as TIFF files.)

At 12:06 AM 9/15/00 -0700, petro wrote:
>>petro wrote:
>>>
>>>          Prove it.
>>>
>>>          Produce the documentation that makes that claim.
>>>
>>>          Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or
>>>  have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).
>
>	There is this thing called "The internet". It's a wonderful 
>method for spreading (dis-) information.
>
>	Scan them, compress them, and mail them to me.
>-- 
>A quote from Petro's Archives:
**********************************************
>Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
>of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
>Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
>history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Fri Sep 15 09:32:31 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:32:31 -0700
Subject: CDR: SWAT Team Guns Down 11 Year Old In His Own Home
Message-ID: <39C24F1F.49F5855B@lsil.com>

> 
>http://www.modbee.com/metro/story/0,1113,194747,00.html
>
>An 11-year-old Modesto boy was fatally shot early Wednesday morning
>when police SWAT team officers on a federal narcotics sweep raided his
>parents' home. Police said the shooting was an accident.
>   
>Alberto Sepulveda, a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary
>School, was pronounced dead in his home at 2524 McAdoo Ave., just east
>of Highway 99 in the north Modesto neighborhood commonly known as
>Highway Village. He died from one shotgun round to the back, Police
>Chief Roy Wasden said.
>
>...
>
>-- 
>Eric Michael Cordian 0+
>O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
>"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
>
What life was going to be saved by this armed raid? Shouldn't the
standard for justifying such a raid be a bit higher than "it's a drug
charge your honor?" Who elected the "law and order" morality-spewing
politicians? We are our own worst enemy. We made this evil crawling
monster.




From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 15 09:40:52 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 09:40:52 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Canada outlaws anonymous remailers (was Re: GigaLaw.com Daily
  News, September 15, 2000)
In-Reply-To: 
References:  
Message-ID: 

At 10:58 AM -0400 9/15/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>I wonder what this does to Zero Knowledge Systems?
>...
>At 3:52 AM -0700 on 9/15/00, GigaLaw.com wrote:
>
>
>>  Canadian Ruling Could Unmask Anonymous E-mailers
>>       Canadian e-mailers can no longer hide behind a cloak of anonymity if
>>  reasonable grounds exist to show they've distributed defamatory statements
>>  over the Internet. The change in Canadian law came after a landmark court
>>  ruling this week when an Ontario Superior Court Justice ordered Internet
>>  service provider iPRIMUS Inc. of Toronto to reveal the identity of an
>  > anonymous e-mailer.

It's what many of us predicted (in writing, here) when it was 
announced that ZKS would locate in Canada because of (or influenced 
by) Canada's supposedly freeer policies on encryption. I wrote at the 
time, as others did, that Canada's supposedly "free export policy" 
was likely temporary and was more of a "show of independence" against 
what they perceived to be U.S. control and influence.

Fact is, as we wrote at the time, Canada lacks a solid constitution 
for protection of basic liberties. Sure, defenders will scurry to 
point out, Canada now _has_ a charter/constitution. But it has not 
been the bedrock that the U.S.C. has been, nor has it had a history 
of important tests.

Canada is fundamentally an ad hocracy.

As for the effect on ZKS, I haven't seen any actual uses of Freedom, 
or users of it, so I doubt there will be much effect at all.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 15 07:58:14 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:58:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
 
Message-ID: 

At 8:57 PM -0700 on 9/14/00, Tim May wrote:


> the Mediterranean inundation was more than
> 10 million years ago.

Oh, well.

Here I thought it was closer than that, historically.

I do remember that there were salt pans on the floor of the Med that only
could have gotten there if it was dry down there once, but I didn't realize
that it was 10 million years ago, which is several times as far back most
people could say we were even human...


Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 15 07:58:21 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 10:58:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: Canada outlaws anonymous remailers (was Re: GigaLaw.com Daily
 News, September 15, 2000)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

I wonder what this does to Zero Knowledge Systems?

Cheers,
RAH



At 3:52 AM -0700 on 9/15/00, GigaLaw.com wrote:


> Canadian Ruling Could Unmask Anonymous E-mailers
>      Canadian e-mailers can no longer hide behind a cloak of anonymity if
> reasonable grounds exist to show they've distributed defamatory statements
> over the Internet. The change in Canadian law came after a landmark court
> ruling this week when an Ontario Superior Court Justice ordered Internet
> service provider iPRIMUS Inc. of Toronto to reveal the identity of an
> anonymous e-mailer.
>      Read the article: Wired News @
> http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38734,00.html

-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From nospam at spam.not  Fri Sep 15 12:46:29 2000
From: nospam at spam.not (NewsBot)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:46:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: NAMBLA Web Site Back Up
Message-ID: <200009151946.MAA20519@timber20.timberland.lib.wa.us>

http://www.nambla.de

Let's see if the Christian Coalition can reach all the way 
to Doucheland. :)




From newsletter at edgar-online.com  Fri Sep 15 12:50:12 2000
From: newsletter at edgar-online.com (EDGAR Online News)
Date: 15 Sep 2000 13:50:12 -0600
Subject: CDR: VC SECrets Newsletter 9.15.00
Message-ID: <20000915195012.24098.qmail@golf.businesslink.net>

EDGAR Online's VC SECrets Newsletter
Send comments to:
mailto:editor at edgar-online.com

***INSIDE THIS ISSUE

VC QUESTION OF THE WEEK: All Stock Options Taxed the Same?
VC COMPANY PROFILE: Ethnic Foods.com
VC SECTOR PROFILE: Broadband Companies
COMPANIES MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE
PEOPLE MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE

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----------------------------------------
***VC QUESTION OF THE WEEK***
----------------------------------------
Answered by Bruce Brumberg, Esq.

QUESTION: Are all stock options taxed the same?

ANSWER: No. The taxation of your stock options will depend upon
whether they are incentive stock options (ISOs) or nonqualified
stock options (NQSOs). ISOs are free from regular tax at the date
of grant and the date of exercise (when a non-qualified option
would become taxable). NQSOs do not meet the IRS criteria for ISOs
and therefore trigger a tax upon exercise. This type of option
requires withholding of state and federal income tax, Medicare and
FICA/FUTA on the excess of the fair market value over the exercise
price on the exercise date.

Bruce Brumberg is Editor-in-Chief of myStockOptions.com

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\----------------------------------------------------------------/

----------------------------------------
**VENTURE CAPITAL COMPANY PROFILE**
----------------------------------------
By Udayan Gupta, Venture Capital Contributor

Tandoori and Noodles: EthnicGrocer.com Delivers

Immigrants are hot. Asian and Hispanic populations are booming.
Asian and Pacific Islanders populations have grown 43% percent.
Hispanics have increased nearly 40%. EthnicGrocer
(www.ethnicgrocer.com) has figured that the best way to these
populations is through their stomachs. Food!

"If you're Chinese and you live in Alabama, the chances of your
finding a Chinese store are almost none," says EthnicGrocer.com CEO
and president Parry Singh. Outside of the major urban centers,
immigrants have a hard time finding cultural-specific foods. The
ethnic food market in the U.S. is fragmented. Most retailers are
small and carry a limited amount of merchandise. "Seven out of ten
times you go to the distributor, he doesn't have what you want,"
says Singh. In response, Singh and his colleagues founded
EthnicGrocer.com and its sister sites, Namaste.com for the
Asian-Indian market, GongShee.com for the Chinese market, and
QueRico.com for the Latin American market. Consumers can shop online
and have their favorite foods - including perishables - delivered
right to their door. A godsend for newly immigrated Chinese in Alabama.

In August, EthnicGrocer.com announced the closing of its $41 million
C round of financing. Investors in the company include Integral
Capital Partners, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, Amerindo
Investment Advisors, Merrill Lynch, Benchmark Capital and KB
Partners, LLC.

Singh says his company's strengths are its scalable supply chain
platform and its expertise in ethnic marketing. As the company grows,
it continues to add hard-to-find products, and to offer other product
lines. "We start with food to build a bond with the consumer," says
Singh. Based in Chicago with a distribution centers in Hebron,
Kentucky and Northbrook, Illinois, the company currently employs 150.
By the end of the year, EthnicGrocer plans to launch sites for the
Korean, Filippino and Kosher markets.

EthnicGrocer was far from the first in the online grocery shopping
space, however. Companies like California-based Webvan Group, Inc.
(WBVN), New Jersey-based NetGrocer.com, Inc., Massachusetts-based
Streamline.com, Inc. (SLNE), Washington-based HomeGrocer.com, Inc.
(HOMG) and Peapod, Inc. (PPOD) all deliver grocery products straight
to consumers' doors. Moreover, what's there to prevent brands such
as New Jersey-based Goya Foods, Inc., California-based Authentic
Specialty Foods, Inc., and Minnesota-based Hormel Foods Corporation
(HRL), or even Houston-based retail chain Fiesta Mart Inc., from
launching their own Web sites? And it can only be a matter of time
before established chains like Cincinnati-based The Kroger Co. (KR),
Boise-based Albertson's, Inc. (ABS), and California-based
Safeway Inc. (SWY) jump on the net.

*** NOTE: On Tuesday, Peapod (PPOD) announced its acquisition of
Streamline.com (SLNE)
http://www.edgar-online.com/secrets.asp?d=A-1036992-0000950131-00-005301

*** NOTE:  A number of Webvan Group(WBVN) insiders have registered
to sell stock recently
http://www.edgar-online.com/bin/esearch/default.asp?QT=1&query=WBVN&date=1994


EthnicGrocer.com, Inc.

Venture Capital Investors

Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers
Benchmark Capital
KB Partners, LLC
Integral Capital Partners
Amerindo Investment Advisors
Merrill Lynch

Executive Team

Parry Singh, CEO and President
Subhash Bedi, COO
Venkat Raju, CTO and VP of Engineering
Sami El Saden, VP of Marketing

/----------ADVERTISEMENT--------------------------------\
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\-------------------------------------------------------/

----------------------------------------
**VENTURE CAPITAL SECTOR PROFILE**
----------------------------------------
Broadband Companies: Unclogging the Pipe

Ensemble Communications Inc.
WildBlue Communications, Inc.
@Link Networks, Inc.
Jump. Net
As the world - or increasing numbers in it - go online, the limits
of the systems that deliver Internet services are being stretched.
The protocol "WWW", for many, now signifies World Wide Wait. Critics
say AOL stands for "America On Late." Telephone dial-ups are
excruciatingly slow, severely limiting downloads and new product
development. But the dangling carrot of land-based cable and DSL and
wireless broadband keeps consumers going, holding out the promise of
relief from slow modem madness.

A report released by the Clinton Administration in the spring of 2000
says that while broadband is available to those in densely populated
centers, the same cannot be said for those in rural areas. The study,
published by the Department of Commerce, says that while broadband
via cable is available in 65% of U.S. cities with a population over
250,000, and via telephone in 56% of cities over 100,000, fewer than
5% of towns with populations under 10,000 have any broadband access
whatsoever.

Even in the urban markets where broadband is available, delivery is
spotty. Providers are backed up and many users have been waiting
months, even years, for broadband installation.

Wireless broadband could change all that, with satellites providing
next-generation Internet access to those in far-flung regions, such
as parts of Alaska, North Dakota and, yes, Guam. For many, however,
cable and DSL are still preferable for its land-based infrastructure.

The broadband space already has many contenders. For wireless
broadband, Sunnyvale, CA-based Adaptive Broadband Corporation (ADAP),
Tel Aviv-based BreezeCOM Ltd. (BRZE), Santa Clara, CA-based
Wireless, Inc., and Plano, TX-based Nucentrix Broadband Networks, Inc.
(NCNX) are already competing for customers in the U.S. and abroad.
For cable and DSL service, individuals and businesses look to
Redwood City, CA-based At Home Corporation (ATHM), Englewood, CO-based
Rhythms NetConnections Inc. (RTHM), and New Haven, CT-based DSL.net, Inc.
(DSLN).

Given the ever-widening reach of the Internet, there is plenty of
room in the space to grow. The following companies are worth adding
to your radar:

Ensemble Communications Inc.

The San Diego-based company, with its Adaptix module and Fiberless
delivery system, manufactures point-to-multipoint systems for use
with wireless broadband. Ensemble (www.ensemblecom.com) recently
announced the closing of a $60 million round of financing. Corporate
investors in the company include Cisco Systems, Inc., ADC
Telecommunications, and Samsung.

Venture Capital Investors:
Dell Ventures
The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.
Crescendo Ventures
Enterprise Partners
Institutional Venture Partners
Trinity Ventures

Executive Team:
David A. Twyer, CEO
Jay Klein, CTO
Sheldon Gilbert, EVP of Engineering and Operations
Rami Hadar, EVP of Marketing and Business Development
Gary Bohdan, VP of Finance and Administration

WildBlue Communications, Inc.

Based in Denver, WildBlue (www.wildblue.com) plans to offer broadband
access via satellite in North America and Latin America by 2001.
Originally founded as KaSTAR Satellite Communications, in July the
company says it closed a $137 million second round of funding.
Corporate investors include Liberty Media, TV Guide and TRW.

Venture Capital Investors:
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers

Executive Team:
Thomas E. Moore, CEO and President
David M. Drucker, Founder and Chairman
Jeff Weaver, VP of Architecture
Robert Luly, VP of Technology
Brad Greenwald, VP of Marketing and Business Development

@Link Networks, Inc.

The Louisville, Colorado-based firm provides broadband services to
small and medium-sized businesses. Formerly known as Dakota Services,
the company says it secured $101.2 million in its second round of
venture capital funding. @Link Networks (www.atlinknetworks.com),
which offers primarily DSL, says it will use the money for its
nationwide deployment.

Venture Capital Investors:
Madison Dearborn Partners
Columbia Capital
Telcom Ventures
Morgan Stanley Dean Witter

Executive Team:
Alexander H. Good, Chairman and CEO
Hank Carabelli, President and COO
Jarrett B. Appleby, Chief Development and Strategic Officer
Douglas Zolnick, CTO
Raymond O'Brien, Chief Marketing Officer

Jump.Net, Inc.

Jump. Net (www.jump.net), based in Austin, Texas offers DSL,
co-location and Web hosting in 90 cities across the U.S. Through its
investment arm, Jump.Net Ventures, the firm gives start-ups low or
no-cost Internet service and Web hosting in exchange for equity.

Venture Capital Investors:
Prime New Ventures
Alta Communications

Executive Team
Kenneth Smith, CEO and President
Frank Bieser, SVP
Dewey Coffman, VP of Sales and Marketing

----------------------------------------
**COMPANIES MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE***
----------------------------------------
@Link Networks, Inc
Adaptive Broadband Corporation
Albertson's, Inc
Alta Communications
America Online
Amerindo Investment Advisors
At Home Corporation
Authentic Specialty Foods, Inc
Benchmark Capital
BreezeCOM Ltd
Cisco Systems, Inc
Columbia Capital
Crescendo Ventures
Dell VenturesDSL.net, Inc
Ensemble Communications Inc
Enterprise Partners
EthnicGrocer.com
Fiesta Mart Inc
Goldman Sachs Group, Inc
GongShee.com
Goya Foods, Inc
HomeGrocer.com, Inc
Hormel Foods Corporation
Institutional Venture Partners
Integral Capital Partners
Jump.Net, Inc
KB Partners, LLC
Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers
Liberty Media
Madison Dearborn Partners
Merrill Lynch
Morgan Stanley Dean Witter
Namaste.com
NetGrocer.com, Inc
Nucentrix Broadband Networks, Inc
Peapod, Inc
Prime New Ventures
QueRico.com
Rhythms NetConnections Inc
Safeway Inc
Samsung
Streamline.com
Telcom Ventures
Telecommunications
The Kroger Co
Trinity Ventures
TRW
TV Guide
Webvan Group, Inc
WildBlue Communications, Inc
Wireless, Inc
Zolnick, Douglas

----------------------------------------
**PEOPLE MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE***
----------------------------------------
Appleby, Jarrett B
Bedi, Subhash
Bieser, Frank
Bohdan, Gary
Carabelli, Hank
Coffman, Dewey 
Drucker, David M.
El Saden, Sami
Gilbert, Sheldon
Good, Alexander H.
Greenwald, Brad
Hadar, Rami
Klein, Jay
Luly, Robert
Moore, Thomas E.
O'Brien, Raymond
Raju, Venkat
Singh, Parry
Smith, Kenneth
Twyer, David A.
Weaver, Jeff

----------------------------------------
ABOUT THE CONTRIBUTORS
----------------------------------------
VC SECrets is published every Friday.

Udayan Gupta has covered the venture capital industry for more than
a decade as a senior writer for The Wall Street Journal and is the
co-founder of Biztrail.com, an Internet portal for entrepreneurial
businesses. He is the author of the forthcoming book "Done Deals"
(Harvard Business School Press, 2000), an oral history of the venture
capital industry.

Bruce Brumberg is the Editor in Chief of MyStockOptions.com and an
advisor to The National Association of Stock Plan Professionals.
Bruce has developed numerous books and videos on SEC compliance,
insider trading and stock plan administration.

For press, syndication, and advertising inquiries, contact
Group Publisher Hank Berkowitz at
mailto:hberkowitz at edgar-online.com
----------------------------------------
Copyright 2000, EDGAR Online, Inc.
http://www.edgar-online.com
----------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: The EDGAR Online report
contains observations of its editor
Timothy Middleton, a consultant of EDGAR
Online and is for informational purposes
only.  These statements and expressions
are the sole opinions of Mr. Middleton and
EDGAR Online does not endorse nor
necessarily agree on such statements
and expressions.  Factual statements in
this report are made as of the date
stated and are subject to change without notice.
Nothing contained herein shall be deemed to be
recommendations to buy, hold or sell
securities nor shall it purport to be a
complete analysis of the companies
mentioned.  While the information
contained in this Report and the opinions contained
herein are based on sources believed to be reliable,
neither Mr. Middleton nor EDGAR Online
have  independently verified the facts,
assumptions and/or estimates that may
be contained in this Report. Accordingly, no
representation or warranty, expressed or implied,
is made as to, and no reliance should be placed
on, the fairness, accuracy, completeness or
correctness of the information and opinions
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*#* cypherpunks at toad.com




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Sep 15 11:18:57 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 14:18:57 -0400
Subject: FWD: ETSI releases some digital phone crypto algorithms.
Message-ID: 

Some of these are downloadable (f8,f9 and kasumi), but others have 
fees and/or irksome confidentiality agreements.

Peter Trei
-----------------------------

>From sci.crypt:

Bruce Schneier 
Thu 11:13 AM
Subject: Fresh Meat: New Crypto Algorithms Announced

The European Telecommunication Standards Institute (ETSI) has made a
bunch of encryption algorithms public:

         

My guess is that most of these are breakable, and that a good break
paper is publishable.

Bruce




From FTM97 at aol.com  Fri Sep 15 11:24:29 2000
From: FTM97 at aol.com (FTM97 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 14:24:29 EDT
Subject: CDR: (no subject)
Message-ID: 

Sept. 7, 2000

First off.  To avoid any complication I am willing to sign a release of yours 
giving you full access to all medical records, test and opinions, all DDU of 
New Mexico records and reports and all Social Security medical records and 
reports plus any and all financial records including any and all disability 
social security benefits every paid me, all Medicare payments every made in 
my name, all medical and hospital records and any and all bills and payments 
you require to show that I am dead serious in asking you to please 
investigate this case because I am fighting a medical malpractice and 
conspiracy and fraud case PRO SE against some very powerful attorneys and 
doctors.  Also if anyone of the doctors in this case still claims that their 
diagnosis especial on or around Feb. 1995 of my medical condition as that of 
Limb girdle muscular dystrophy is correct that doctor can immediately end 
this case simply by provide you and me with the medical evidence and test 
results they say they performed on me that  especially shows their Feb. 1995 
and dates thereafter diagnosis of LGMD and total disability is true and my 
15-20 year medical condition was and is indeed that of LMGD.  They can not 
provide you with any such evidence because it does not exist as defendants 
attorney has testify already in court to, and no test were every given by the 
two doctors to support their unbelievable misdiagnosis. Again, no blood test, 
muscle biopsy test, medical test were given that either doctor can point to 
that they say supports their false Feb. 1995 and dates thereafter 
misdiagnosis and claims that I am and have been for over 15 years totally 
disabled entitled to full social security and Medicare disability benefits.  
In fact prior to the Feb. 1995 date and repeatedly after the Feb. 1995 date 
many doctor and experts in the field of neuro-muscular dystrophy have 
examined me and make blood test, EMG tests, muscle biopsy test and all have 
written that I do not now nor have I ever had LGMD with some going so far as 
to say that given the medical evidence present today and during the 1995 
investigation NO DOCTOR could have mistakenly misdiagnosed my medical 
condition as that of LGMD.  This was not only a misdiagnosis but once the 
misdiagnosis was discovered by me in early 1995 the doctor involved 
immediately began a cover up of the truth and conspired with a fellow doctor 
to continue the misdiagnosis knowing it was a lie and knowing that when they 
were advising social security and DDU in 1995 that I was totally disabled it 
was not true. The two doctors in this case had all the medical evidence from 
the UNMH-MDA clinic and the written words of the doctors and knew if they 
went ahead and intentionally diagnosed a false diagnosis it would be exactly 
that. If you investigate this case and open the District Court Records # 
CV-98-00271  you will find all medical evidence that I have submitted as 
evidence including the one doctors own late 1995 and early 1996 letter 
admitting he knew I was not ever totally disabled.  I need help before these 
doctors and there lawyers get away with fraud, conspiracy and cover up.  I 
have brought all the information to the judge in this case and he seems to 
not be listening instead overly concerned with rules of the court and not law 
of the land.

I have a question news media:  When did the NMRA District Court and other 
Court rule book become law or statute onto themselves with the power to 
supersede statute and law and with so much power that they are looked unto by 
Judges and lawyers as laws unto themselves even though not one of them have 
ever been enacted into law or statute?  How can a rule of court supersede 
statute and be held above statute with the power to overrule statute?   
Summary Judgment is a Rule of the court, created by judges and lawyers to 
skirt truth and real justice.  When will the citizen of New Mexico see what 
attorneys and Judges have done taking over their court system and take that 
control back away from the Judges and the lawyers who seem to not have the 
citizens rights in mind?  Who watches the attorneys and judges?  Why is it 
that judges seem to be screaming and yelling at ordinary citizens who are 
seeking justice?  Should we as ordinary citizens be afraid of the courts and 
the Judges knowing that a fancy lawyer can make a claims or accusation with 
no evidence to back such a claim or accusation and get away with it?  In the 
case number included in this brief you will find specific examples of where a 
powerful lawyer has written their response to a medical law suit, not a 
medical malpractice lawsuit, in which the attorney from the very beginning 
makes not only bogus claim but out right un-provable  and false claims that 
have been brought to the judges attention without the judge acting on one 
single one.  If I went into court and lied throughout my questioning whether 
in writing or not I would be put in jail.  Why aren’t the lawyers held to the 
same standards. I thought you, as the media,  were at the van guard always 
alert, always vigilant for the people.  Then how did the lawyers take control 
of the courts away from the people?
The purpose of this letter is as follows:

THE ATTORNEY REQUIRED TO APPROACH THE MEDICAL MALPRACTICE COMMISSION 
PROVISION OF THE MEDICAL MALPRACTICE ACT Which denies individual citizens 
their constitutional rights to approach the courts HAS BEEN DECLARED 
UNCONSTITITIONAL IN  CASE CV-98-00271 BECAUSE THEY DENY PLAINTIFF HIS 
CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO APPEAR BEFORE THE COURTS.  PLAINTIFF IS TRYING TO 
DECLARE THE DISTRICT COURTS RULE BOOK WHEN IT SUPERSEDES LAW AND STATUTE  
UNCONSTITITUIONAL ESPECIALLY WHEN IT IS LOOK TO AS LAW AND STATUTE ONTO 
THEMSELVES CREATED BY THE COURTS AND FOR ATTORNEYS AND NOT BY THE PEOPLE AND 
FOR THE PEOPLE



Even if you don’t look into case CV-98-00271 because of how complicated it 
is, and it involves the Muscular Dystrophy Association hospital clinic,  
which most media outlets support, Please, be at the next hearing to see how 
the courts don’t look for truth and justice and have become so influenced by 
attorneys.

How can a Albuquerque High School Graduate, not schooled in the law,  stand 
up Pro Se and fight a medical battle against a well entrenched medical 
profession hell bent on defeating anyone who comes up against them, with the 
same medical establishment having no interest in the truth about the persons 
health nor does it want to do the medical testing to see if one of its own 
created a knowingly and intentional false diagnosis? Why would physicians 
have a code of silence to protect an individual doctor who is allegedly 
hurting the very people the doctors claim they are helping?  How can the same 
Albuquerque High School graduate  go out and find a medical expert who is 
willing to testify that a Feb. 1995 diagnosis of plaintiffs medical condition 
as that of Limb Girdle Muscular Dystrophy was a negligent misdiagnosis and 
that from the medical evidence presented no doctor could have mistakenly 
diagnosed a disease as extreme as Limb Girdle Muscular Dystrophy?  That even 
though the two doctor in the above named cased diagnosed and  gave that 
diagnosis to the DDU of New Mexico and Social Security, the Plaintiff may not 
be totally disable as the two doctors claim?  Was there any Medicare fraud as 
a direct result of the doctors alleged false diagnosis and did the doctor 
collect Medicare payments knowing that the patient did not have Limb Girdle 
Muscular Dystrophy and therefor may not have ever been totally disabled even 
though the one doctor continued said disabled diagnosis for over 15 years 
now? Is there Medicare and social security fraud going on here? How dare that 
same High School graduate fight a battle against injustice and indifference 
by the Court and is holding his owe against a powerful legal firm and legal 
precedent and think he will stand the test of time?  HOW CAN THAT BE?  Who 
does he think he is to be demanding  justice and his right to the courts Pro 
se? Who does he think he is filing legal brief, notices and motions against 
us, the establishment as if he is a lawyer, not concerned with the rules of 
edict we attorneys have created for the courts to follow and implement as we 
dictate? How can a Pro Se high school Graduate think he can demand justice 
and think he can mention the word truth to the courts without severe 
consequences against him?  This Pro Se individual dares to not follow our, 
the lawyers, lead in our endeavor to consume weeks and months on rules of the 
court and not laws by daring to constantly mention the facts and truth of the 
case? How dare him rock the boat of indifference and delays created by 
attorneys so they can collect exorbitant amounts of money doing nothing? How 
dare this Pro se individual  approach the courts as an American citizen with 
inalienable rights and not be afraid of the courts or the judge sitting on 
the bench or what we, as attorneys, can get the judge to do to him? For we 
are friends of the Courts and some of the judges and our opinions count. We 
fraternize with some of the Judges unopposed with no fear that the media will 
ever question why we do that? We are higher that military officers who are 
not allowed to fraternize with enlisted personal?  We are an entity unto 
ourselves, above examination by the media or anyone else. For we are the 
Lawyers of the court.  All normal citizens  should be afraid of what we, 
attorneys,  can and will do to them if they dare challenge our authority 
before the courts.  All normal citizens should be afraid of what we are doing 
to them and their rights behind closed doors unopposed by anyone or agency? 
We can paper you to death and you will loose on rules not law.  How dare a 
Pro se individual go to the media and the public for help against us, the 
establishment and status quo, asking for legal and maybe even financial help 
thinking that the regular Joe cares one bit that we, the attorneys,  have 
taken control of the courts and will not let it go back to the people without 
a fight! We are accountable to no one and we’ll milk you dry of all you have 
before we throw you out like the garbage we think you are.  The courts will 
do as we dictate because we have written the book of rules the courts have 
made laws unto themselves that supersede constitutionally created laws and 
statutes.  

I hope you the media will not  throw this in the garbage and do nothing for 
the people, but I must at least try.  For if you just bother to read the 
information in especially District Court case #CV-98-00271 you will see what 
the above is about and how the lawyers have intentionally created a situation 
that benefits them and only them.  I NEED HELP..  Who will help if you won’t? 
One good thing about the computer revolution and especially the chat rooms 
and news and newsgroups organization on the Internet, even if the media 
chooses not to act,  we still can get this out to the public. 
 

I really don’t understand, you are the media claiming that you are helping to 
look out for the welfare of the community but have you ever bothered to 
quietly and undercover sit in the District Court rooms of Bernalillo and see 
the unbelievable attitude that  some of the Judges on the bench have towards 
the citizens of our state and how they are screaming and yelling possibly 
threatening regular people who only want justice. Do you periodically go 
undercover and sit in the various Court room to see for yourselves the 
attitudes of the judges on the bench and how they treat the people.  Who 
monitors the Judges on the bench and their attitudes and the decisions that 
these judges are making?  Do you even know or care what the Judges are doing 
and saying?  Have Judges become so bitter with the people for what attorneys 
have done and continue to do unopposed that their attitudes, feelings and 
ruling are being adversely affected against the people?  Why haven’t the 
Judges been able to see through the theoretic and delay tactics Attorneys 
have created? IS IT BECAUSE JUDGES ARE ATTORNEYS THEMSELVES? Trained in the 
theoretic’s of the show and not concerned with the law of the land. Does 
justice grind slowly down the road to completion as Attorneys have claimed or 
do attorneys intentionally create delays that the judges blame on the people? 
 Why cant the people take back control of the court room?  Are Judges 
fraternizing with attorneys, actually have coffee brakes with them, golfing 
with them?  Why would an attorney claim to be friends with a judge and claim 
that she is going to have coffee with that judge?  What is being discussed 
behind closed doors at these claimed coffee’s and are lives being ruin 
because of such fraternizing?  fraternization between a judge and a lawyer is 
a very dangerous thing especially when that lawyer makes insinuated comments 
that she’s friends with the judge and she’s off to have coffee with the 
judge-what are these statements for?  More importantly: are the Judges ruling 
being in anyway influenced by any claimed friendships between a attorney and 
a Judge? When a Judge is sitting on a bench judging a case at hand, does that 
judge look at the attorney’s and say blank is my friend and therefore he/she 
rulings are being adversely affected by such a friendship? Is the court 
system for the people, by the people and of the people or is it really as it 
looks,  for the lawyer, by the lawyer and of the lawyer?  Look into this case 
and see how can a lawyer  do nothing for almost 2 years.
?  Do you really think a court case can take 2 or more years because justice 
moves slowly?  Or is it intentional on the parts of attorneys to 
intentionally delay and file one document at a time? Who fights for the 
people and how do you put a stop to these and other intentional delaying 
practices created by lawyers that serve no purpose for the client but does 
line the attorneys pockets?  Once  a case has started there is no Court 
charges for filing a motion in that pending case, yet lawyers are charging 
upwards of $500 to thousands  for each and every motion they file, even when 
then file motions a piece at a time?  To say that their time is that valuable 
and more valuable than their clients is bull?  90% of all motions and notices 
and documents are created by a lonely secretary who is not a lawyer and is 
not paid lawyers fees.  When will the courts have an accounting of what 
lawyers are doing and the charges they are charging forcing an attorney to be 
accountable for the charges?  Why doesn’t a lawyer have a log book  logging 
in the exact amount of time he spends on an individual case, stating the 
exact dates and time of day to justify their exorbitant charges?  Why is a 
lawyer allowed to charge that much and milk a client dry?  Who watches the 
lawyers?


TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, I AM NOT AN ATTORNEYS NOR DO I CLAIM TO BE NOR  DO I 
HAVE THE EDUCATION TO DO AN ATTORNEYS JOB but because of a medical cover up 
intentionally created by the doctors in this case as testified to by the 
doctors own written letter submitted as evidence in this case and ignored by 
the courts and because of a false diagnosis given to social security and the 
Disability Determination Unit of the State of New Mexico I have be saddled 
with the disease of Limb girdle muscular dystrophy and claimed to be totally 
disabled collecting over the past 15-20 years tens of thousands of dollars 
based on this one doctor knowingly false diagnosis.  Once this information 
was given to the courts and social security in writing neither cared about 
the truth and social security stated it was not their business for me to go 
to court.  After the court denied Defense attorneys motion to throw this case 
out of court and after the judge declared the Attorney Required Provision of 
the Medical Malpractice act unconstitutional, this case was sent to an 
arbitration meeting in which the arbitrator attorney stated to plaintiff that 
if I was seeking truth and justice I was at the wrong place.  Even if the 
Court has the doctor written letter stated he knew Plaintiff was not totally 
disabled and continued the diagnosis anyway for decades  passing that 
diagnosis to the DDU and Social Security, if you are looking for justice and 
the truth you would not find it in a court of law.  It seem to me that court 
rules have become over law.  


In  case CV-98-00271 the Courts and attorneys have not mentioned the word 
truth nor has it mentioned the facts in this case nor has it fought over law 
and statute in this case for over two years. In fact in the majority of the 
Defendants briefs and motions filed in this case, incorrect statements and 
allegations are made with immunity from the court.  Its as if the attorneys 
in any case can simply write what they want even if what they write is not 
true, has no baring on the case and has no evidence to support and when 
brought to the courts attention, the court simply ignores the evidence.  How 
can a case be allowed to continue for over two years based on insinuation and 
not provable statements from attorneys?   All the arguments are centered 
around court rules,  summary judgment,  discovery rules.  When will the law 
be mentioned or the word truth or the facts.

When will the Courts go back to what they were created for, to judge the 
facts in a case,  decide the truth from those facts and to dispense justice 
based on those facts and not on the court rules book or lawyers theoretical 
symphony training that was taught for the expressed purpose to sway the 
courts, judges and jury even though it is only a act, trained by tricky 
educators who know that symphony thoracic can most assuredly  influence  a 
judge and a jury even though it is only a play or a Act  on the attorneys 
part.  Example:  A person is video taped throwing a brick through a window 
severely harming a person inside. That person without pressure writes that he 
did throw the brick.  For two years in court those facts are not look at or 
even mentioned and the words looking for the truth has no baring on the case 
because lawyers have the judge tied up on rules of the court that have no 
legislative backing.  With the lawyer for the accused actually trying to get 
the case thrown out of court by summary judgment thereby never mention the 
truth in the case.  More importantly the person can actually get off without 
any justice simply based on rules of the court even though their is video 
tape that the person actually throw the brick through the window.  That tape 
and the evidence has no baring in court proceedings for over 2 years, why?  
More importantly, the attorneys in the case are collecting exorbitant amounts 
of money for delay tactics and doing nothing.  The Miranda rights are good 
and do what they are intended to do, protect the guilty and innocent from 
testifying against themselves.  But if that defendant is running around 
telling everyone he did it and more importantly the court ain’t going to do 
shit, when does the injured parties right supersede lawyers rules?  Who 
created the District Courts Rule book and more importantly are they 
legislative law?  How does rules made up by judges and lawyers for judges and 
lawyers become  law unto themselves with the actual power to supersede  
legally constituted laws and statutes  with the ability to overrule 
constitutional created laws and statutes?  

Even though the New Mexico Supreme Court says that the District Court Rule 
book is law and statute, carrying the same weight as law and statutes and in 
fact superseding Law and statute constitutional CREATED by the legislature 
with the ability to overrule constitutional implemented law and statute, and 
in fact is placed above law and statute by the Judges of the Courts with the 
power to supersede law and statute, no where can you find one single rule of 
the District Court Rule book,  including the summary Judgment rule,  
legislated into law or statute by the legislative branch of the New Mexican 
government.  In the above mentioned  case the Courts  has used the Rule book 
of the District Courts as laws unto themselves using them to decide decisions 
on various issues from discovery to  Summary Judgment  without mentioning the 
clear evidence in this case and without even knowing what statute apply to 
this case and without  ruling on the various  Motion to Decide which Laws and 
statutes apply to this case.  How can a Judge decide that a Rule, as Summary 
Judgment is, applies, when it has not decided on which statute governs this 
case even though it asked for such a Motion to be filed.  What I feel has 
happened is that Attorneys have influenced and so corrupted the Courts and 
the Judges that somehow the Judges actually  think that rules made up by 
attorneys for attorneys and not for the people have been declared 
constitutional  law by the Judicial branch of the government and not through 
the constitutional elected legislative branch.  No where in any legislative 
created statute does the courts rule book rules become  law.    

What I don’t understand is why the media, with claims that they were created 
to look after the interest of the people,  has been silent on this vital 
issue.  And I don’t understand why the media, who has the power  to influence 
the people into action, has not looked at the unbelievable delaying tactics 
attorneys are using in court for the only reason but to collect exorbitant 
amount of unjustified moneys for doing nothing but delaying?  How does a 
regular citizen even know that when the lawyer on the other side of the desk 
is saying its going to take month, maybe even years for a final outcome in 
their case, its not because justice moves slowly, it simply because the 
attorneys are delaying the final outcome and intentionally filing one 
document at a time to stretch the case out years because it is in their best 
interest financially to do so.  Medical experts who are hired to testify are 
doing the same thing.  They know certain test will be required to support 
their hired and paid for testimony  that could easily be done in days, they 
stretch down the road months by doing one test at a time.  Who stops the 
lawyers and experts?  Who keeps a watchful eye on them making sure they are 
not testifying for the money?  Simple example: a back x-ray from you back 
doctor cost $100 to produce and $200 for him to evaluate.  A expert charges 
$500 for that x-ray and 1-5000 for his evaluation and then more for is on 
bench testimony- why? Because the expert is strictly in it for the money the 
lawyers can pay him with and not for truth or justice?  Seems to me that the 
courts should look at expert testimony with suspicion for what it is, hired 
and paid for testimony and not the truth.  If an expert is required, and the 
law says one is required then why hasn’t anyone taken that responsibly out of 
the hands of the lawyers and experts and put it into a neutral hand with 
doctors and experts who have no financial gain to gain and therefore 
testifies on the truth and not on paid slanted truth? Why haven’t you, the 
media, bothered to look at expert testimony for what it really is.  A expert 
who has prostituted his license and integrity for money and only money?  Will 
a expert look at a person damaged if that person has no money?  How can we 
the people stop the courts practices of using attorney hired experts
 
Example:  As the media know,  social security disability Attorneys are 
intentionally dragging out  disability determinations  decisions for 12 
months to 2 years as standard practicing procedures, which decision could 
easily be made in one month, because  the lawyers  get 33 and 1/3 percent of 
all back pay and 331/3% of 1-2 years is quite a lot of money especially when 
they do nothing but collect money. 

Why has the court developed so many confusing  rules and regulations that a 
simple man can not approach the courts pro se?  Do the judges ask for an 
accounting of the amount the attorneys are charging and the delays the 
attorney ask for? ARE ATTORNEYS WHAT THEY THINK THEY ARE, INITITIES ONTO 
THEMSELVES?  If a attorney is doing nothing and taking advantage of a clients 
depression, who do you go to, to stop that attorney  Second:  Are judges 
fraternizing with Attorneys and for what purpose?  Are attorneys actually 
going into Judges offices and sitting down and drinking coffee or tea with 
Judges and shooting the shit as this one attorney claims? You know,  the 
military has a very important rule that Military officers are not allowed to 
fraternize with enlisted  personal for a very good reason.  So the look of 
even a partial amount of favoritism will not be displayed.  I think this rule 
applies here. Surely Judges and Attorneys are not better than officers in the 
military.   If Judges and attorneys are claiming that nothing is going on 
then why the fraternization?  If these coffee and tea brakes are simply that, 
then why does this  attorney go to great length to mention that he/she  are 
good friends with the particular Judge and that they actually are off to have 
coffee with my dear friend?  How do we find out if there is such a rule 
against such fraternizing and if not who regulates such fraternizing to be 
sure nothing improper is being done behind closed doors?  Who keeps an eye on 
those activities between Judges and attorneys? A regular citizen, who has 
been harmed by a doctor and who covers up that harm, should have no fear to 
approach a judge for help and no fear that their rights will be trampled on 
because the opposing counsel is going to make sure that this case is kept in 
the courts so long that it will ruin the damaged party financially?  Who is 
looking at the cost that attorneys are charging.  A domestic case that is 
filed cost at the most $200 to file.  All Motion have no court charges yet 
attorneys charge Upwards of $500 or more for supposedly Motions that have no 
court charges and that may be one page long.  Who does a regular citizen go 
to, to find out if she is being taken advantaged off by a lawyer who know the 
client is scared or in manic depression?   Please Help? 

Now back to my case still pending in court.
If what the doctor  wrote in his 1995 and 1996 letters are true, that he knew 
for decades that plaintiff was not totally disabled, the implication are mind 
boggling.  This doctor was and is instrumental in getting plaintiff full 
disability social security benefits and continuing full disability benefits 
for almost 20 years now even though he writes that he knew for decades that 
plaintiff was not totally disabled but did not bother telling anyone, 
including plaintiff, DDU, social security, other hospital, doctors.  
According to the experts at the UNMH MDA Clinic this would indicate that 
plaintiff does not now nor has he ever had LGMD nor was plaintiff ever 
totally disabled for almost 20 years now even though the doctor in this case 
continually diagnosed it for 15 years with out one single medical test record 
 to support his diagnosis

    The media needs to understand clearly this that  the doctor involved will 
not or can not produce one single medical or lab test report, one single EMG 
test report, one single blood test report,  one single muscle biopsy test 
report that the two doctors  claims they performed on plaintiff in Feb. 1995 
and dates thereafter that they claim  support their  Feb. 1995 and date 
thereafter false diagnosis of plaintiff medical condition as LGMD (Limb 
Girdle Muscular Dystrophy) and total disability  that they not only passed 
off as truth to plaintiff,  but also to Dr. Hamilton of the DDU,  the DDU, 
and social security,  and if this same doctor will not or can not produce one 
single medical or lab test report, one single EMG test report, one single 
blood test report,  one single muscle biopsy test report that  he claims he 
did over a 15 or more year period while he was plaintiff doctor that that 
kept this patient on total disability social security and Medicare benefits 
for over 15 years and this same doctor can not or will not produce one single 
medical record that supports his 15 or more year intentional and false 
diagnosis  of  plaintiffs medical condition as LGMD and total disability that 
he knowingly and intentionally  pass to  the DDU,  DVR, social security, to 
keep his patient on total disability social security benefits and Medicare.

"The implications are mine boggling: For years - This Doctor looked my family 
and me, the DDU and Social Security straight in the eyes and knew he was 
lying and passing a false diagnosis".  That’s Why go public.  If I don’t the 
courts will continue to not worry about the truth and will keep being 
consumed with its rules of court that the courts have elevated above law and 
order and truth! I need help from you the media to get this out into the 
public domain, to get it out of the shadows as it were so that no judge or 
lawyer will be able to hid in the dark again.


Do you realize that there is a constitutional battle going on in the District 
Court of  Bernalillo county, Albuquerque, New Mexico,  Dis. CT.  No.   
__CV-98-00271___, W. Daniel Schneider, presiding justice, Over the attorney  
"Required" provision of the Medical Malpractice Act and the RULES of the 
court  especially what the court calls summary judgment, that is slowly but 
surely headed for the U.S. Supreme Court.  Do you realize that an ordinary 
Albuquerque High  and TVI School Graduate, has not only challenged the 
District Court system, he has fought a fine fight  "PRO SE" against a 
powerful attorney establishment, getting Justice Schneider to declare the 
"Attorney Provision of the Act" unconstitutional!

All either physician has to do is provide proof positive to this court, 
plaintiff  and the media that  shows that  either one of these  physicians  
bothered to do the bare minimum  of medical and lab test, EMG test,   in Feb. 
1995 and dates thereafter  that they say supports their  diagnosis of  LGMD  
and total  disability  that  plaintiff can  present to social security,  the 
DDU  and  the court and say see,  I  do have LGMD  and  am totally disabled 
and am legally  entitled to total disability  benefits from  social security  
for the rest of my life and you can’t take it away or demand pay back.  ITS 
THAT SIMPLE.  Give me proof that Dr. Gregg ever bothered to periodically 
re-evaluate my medical condition despite several DDU, social security  
re-determinations  that he was the only doctor.  That support the years of 
pain and suffering,  hospital stays,  medicines,  brain seizures, congestive 
heart failures,  lost of home, wife, potential.  Please asked the doctors
 

I asks this news organization to please at least go to the court house and 
look up and read these cases records and especially all the  evidence placed 
before the judge and  please present this case publicly to the people so that 
the attorneys  can not bury it under a pretense of innocence  and court rule. 
 I am fighting an uphill battle  that has grown very difficult to fight. I 
ask the ordinary people out there who are seeking equal justice under the law 
to Help.  Medical experts and documents cost thousands.  I am at my roads 
end.  Without your financial support the doctors will win by default and no 
money.

Sincerely your,

Frank T. McMurtrey
10423 Valtierra Pl S.w.
Albuquerque, NM 87121
(505)836-2547




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Fri Sep 15 11:29:38 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 14:29:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: Crypto events 22-24 Sept in Bay Area?
Message-ID: 

I've been stupid (no suprise to those who know me :-). 

Last week I booked a ticket out to SFO assuming the RSA party
would be on Saturday the 23rd. As we now know, it's actually on the 21st.
Unfortunately, I booked through priceline.com, and their policy is
"no refunds, no transfers, no modifications" (yes, they're up front about
this - I can't claim it was buried in the fine print).

I'm debating whether to 

1. Blow off the whole thing, and write off the ticket as an (fairly
expensive)
lesson. I'd go to the Harvard Club event anyway.

2. Come out Friday, even though I miss the party. 

3. Use 20k of FFM on USAir to get to the party 2 hours late, and stay till
Monday. (I've booked this, but that, at least, is cancellable.)

I'm resistant to a long trip  (family/job obligations at home),
but if there's a bunch of interesting crypto related events 
aside from the party on Thursday, I may come out anyway.

Any suggestions?

Peter Trei







From rah at shipwright.com  Fri Sep 15 11:34:12 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 14:34:12 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Canada outlaws anonymous remailers
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000915103606.00c4f640@mail.speakeasy.org>
References: <
 
  <4.3.2.7.2.20000915103606.00c4f640@mail.speakeasy.org>
Message-ID: 

At 10:52 AM -0700 on 9/15/00, Greg Broiles wrote:


> Now, when someone sues a remailer operator for operating a system which
> allows people to act anonymously, thereby causing harm to the plaintiff,
> that'll be an interesting ruling.

Frankly, I think that's exactly, what's going to happen.

But my predictions about legal cases on this list leaves something to be
desired, if I recall... :-).

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From fisherm at tce.com  Fri Sep 15 12:01:56 2000
From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:01:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party - Sept. 21
Message-ID: 

> The fact that _all_ of the so-called music entertainers at the SF 
> event are "trancers" is...symptomatic...of something.

It's symptomatic of the age gap on the list -- you, me, RAH (now there's a
combination) and others are *way* beyond the 20-something party crowd.  Even
if I lived in the area, there'd be lots of stuff I'd rather do than go to
the party.  I hope they have lots of (age-appropriate) fun, though.  A new
(minor) era dawning and all that...
====================================================
Mark Leighton Fisher    Thomson Consumer Electronics
fisherm at tce.com         Indianapolis, IN, USA
"Display some adaptability."  -- Doug Shaftoe, _Cryptonomicon_





From declan at wired.com  Fri Sep 15 12:07:09 2000
From: declan at wired.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:07:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Canada outlaws anonymous remailers (was Re: GigaLaw.com
  Daily News, September 15, 2000)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
 
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000915150127.0159bd10@mail.well.com>

I agree that ZKS took a risk by forming in a country that's more hostile to 
business, and has fewer constitutional safeguards, than the U.S.

But to respond to Bob's point: I'm not sure the Wired article 
(http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,38734,00.html) we ran on our site 
implies that anything has changed. If anything, it says that Canadian 
courts are following the U.S. lead in establishing procedures to "uncloak" 
email addresses at ISPs.

That's a far cry from saying that businesses like ZKS without the apparent 
ability to "uncloak" email senders -- pardon the crass simplification -- 
will be necessarily affected.

-Declan


At 09:40 9/15/2000 -0700, Tim May wrote:

>It's what many of us predicted (in writing, here) when it was announced 
>that ZKS would locate in Canada because of (or influenced by) Canada's 
>supposedly freeer policies on encryption. I wrote at the time, as others 
>did, that Canada's supposedly "free export policy" was likely temporary 
>and was more of a "show of independence" against what they perceived to be 
>U.S. control and influence.
>
>Fact is, as we wrote at the time, Canada lacks a solid constitution for 
>protection of basic liberties. Sure, defenders will scurry to point out, 
>Canada now _has_ a charter/constitution. But it has not been the bedrock 
>that the U.S.C. has been, nor has it had a history of important tests.
>
>Canada is fundamentally an ad hocracy.
>
>As for the effect on ZKS, I haven't seen any actual uses of Freedom, or 
>users of it, so I doubt there will be much effect at all.





From declan at well.com  Fri Sep 15 12:08:08 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:08:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <011501c01ec5$86db8d60$0100a8c0@nandts>
References: 
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000915150718.015a3470@mail.well.com>

May I humbly suggest that the below legal opinion may be something less 
than complete and reliable?

-Declan


At 22:32 9/14/2000 -0500, Neil Johnson wrote:

>Of course being considered an ISP or "provider" may mean you have to comply
>with CALEA and provide LEO's wiretap access.
>
>Between a rock and a hard place ?
>
>Of course wiretap access to data encrypted elsewhere wouldn't do anyone much
>good.
>Maybe traffic analysis.
>
>Neil M. Johnson
>njohnson at interl.net
>http://www.interl.net/~njohnson
>PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7  CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "L. Sassaman" 
>To: 
>Cc: "Jay Holovacs" ; "Jodi Hoffman"
>; ;
>
>Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 4:52 PM
>Subject: Re: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
>
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > I've been running an anonymous remailer since DefCon, when a certain
> > speaker motivated me to set one up. I get on average 1 threat of bodily
> > harm and 3 threats of lawsuits per day because of this.
> >
> > To attempt to answer the question "why do you run a remailer", I put up
> > the page http://www.melontraffickers.com/remailer.html.
> >
> > This seems to have the effect of further annoying those who would have
> > anonymous remailers outlawed.
> >
> > I don't enjoy the fact that some people are being harassed through my
> > remailer. But I cannot prevent that without limiting the effectiveness of
> > the remailer.
> >
> > Have there been any court rulings that define the level of liability for
> > remops whose remailers are used to facilitate criminal actions?
> >
> > Is someone like myself, running a public remailer, considered an ISP? (I'm
> > thinking of the Prodigy ruling, where Prodigy was deemed not responsible
> > for content posted on its BBS system.)
> >
> > - --Len.
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps an analogy might help make the general case for support of free
> > > speech.
> > >
> > > We may not like what our neighbor is doing with his lawn or house. But
>it
> > > is in our best interests, generally speaking, to defend his property
> > > rights from new laws and regulations because tomorrow our home could be
>at
> > > risk.
> > >
> > > -Declan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > >
> > > > How many times do I have to say this. I am *not* protecting them. I am
> > > > protecting free speech... my free speech, your free speech.
> > > >
> > > > This is much more dangerous than you seem to realize. It's tempting to
>let
> > > > them get 'theirs' because their ideas are ugly to many of us. But if
>they
> > > > can be held liable for a vicious murder (which they did not advocate
>or
> > > > instigate) on the part of someone who read their site... what keeps
>you from
> > > > being held accountable for someone who reads your site then kills a
>gay?
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > __
> >
> > L. Sassaman
> >
> > Security Architect             |  "Lose your dreams and you
> > Technology Consultant          |   will lose your mind."
> >                                |
> > http://sion.quickie.net        |       --The Rolling Stones
> >
> >
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Comment: OpenPGP Encrypted Email Preferred.
> >
> > iD8DBQE5wUiWPYrxsgmsCmoRAuapAKDUQEz8mN67NnioFD2Q2YP/Gfe4zwCgwFZE
> > 6ncZVIbwMu5a7dL2ASr2NQY=
> > =5U53
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Fri Sep 15 14:07:38 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:07:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: University seizes computer for RIAA
Message-ID: 

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20000915/tc/student_s_pc_seized_after_record_industry_complaint_2.html
Friday September 15 02:00 PM EDT

             Students PC seized after record
             industry complaint 

             By Cecily Barnes, CNET News.com

             Campus police confiscated an Oklahoma State University
             students computer after the Recording Industry Association
             of America notified the school that a person on campus was allegedly distributing
             copyrighted material.

                              The 19-year-olds computer system--including monitor,
                              keyboard, two CD burners, scanner and printer--was removed
                              earlier this month from his dorm room after campus police
                              determined he was operating an FTP server site that allowed
                              visitors to download MP3 music files and even several
                              full-length movies.

                              A representative for the RIAA confirmed that a letter was sent
             to university officials notifying them that a student appeared to be distributing
             copyrighted songs. The RIAA, which is embroiled in a high-profile copyright
             infringement case against the popular music-swapping site Napster, constantly
             prowls the Internet for repositories of music files.

             "We send out notices like this constantly," said RIAA spokeswoman Amy Weiss.
             "All were asking for is that the material is taken down. We leave it up to the
             universities to determine what to do or how to enforce this."

             OSU officials refused to disclose the students name or other details about the case.

             "He was advocating other people to download the music and upload music he didnt
             have," said James Alexander, an OSU assistant director. "Hed been advertising in
             chat rooms and we decided to notify the police."

             OSUs decision to confiscate this students computer equipment does not mean that
             all OSU students who trade music files are at risk. Alexander said the school does
             not block access to Napster and monitors the content of student Web sites only when
             objectionable material is brought to its attention.

             The seized computer gear included 105 gigabytes of hard drive space, of which
             about 40GB were made available to visitors. Assuming the average music file
             occupies about 4MB, the student could have had approximately 10,000 songs
             available for download.

             Everett Eaton, public safety director at OSU, said the department obtained a search
             warrant from the Payne County District Court in Oklahoma and seized the students
             computer equipment.

             "Were doing some forensic review of the hard drive and determining what is there,"
             Eaton said. "After we finish that review, we will evaluate the amount of substance
             he was distributing."

             College campuses, which often provide high-speed Internet connections to students,
             have become a focal point in the record industrys effort to eradicate the distribution
             of copyrighted material.

             Several schools, including Indiana University, the University of Southern California
             and Yale University, blocked access to Napster after being named as defendants in a
             lawsuit by rock group Metallica.

             Last week, the attorney representing Metallica and rap star Dr. Dre sent letters to
             other top universities urging them to do the same.








From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Fri Sep 15 14:14:15 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:14:15 -0400
Subject: CDR: Eudora gets napsterized
Message-ID: <9299285ece789bad9e56fd4e855d8acf@melontraffickers.com>


Friday September 15 04:15 PM EDT
             Eudora 5.0 boasts new sharing
             feature 

             By Dennis Fisher, eWEEK

             Dont look now, but Eudora is growing up.

             Qualcomm Inc. (Nasdaq:QCOM - news) this week released version 5.0 of the
             popular free e-mail program, and it includes a host of features that cant be found in
             many commercial messaging products.

                              The feature most likely to grab users attention is the Eudora
                              Sharing Protocol, which allows users to share files among
                              small groups of friends and co-workers.

                              Users set up a folder on their hard drives that is designated for
                              file-sharing. The only other step is to enter the e-mail addresses
                              of the other people who are allowed to access the folder. All
                              files in the folder are then automatically saved and updated
                              whenever anyone in the group edits them.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20000915/tc/eudora_5_0_boasts_new_sharing_feature_1.html





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Sep 15 15:23:17 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:23:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

> I do remember that there were salt pans on the floor of the Med that only
> could have gotten there if it was dry down there once, but I didn't realize
> that it was 10 million years ago, which is several times as far back most
> people could say we were even human...

'People' have only been around about a half a million years (depending on
how stringent one is in defining human).

We're recent(!)hairless apes.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From bear at sonic.net  Fri Sep 15 17:29:21 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 17:29:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, Jim Choate wrote:

>
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>
>'People' have only been around about a half a million years (depending on
>how stringent one is in defining human).
>
>We're recent(!)hairless apes.
>

My opinion is even more stringent than that.  The archaeological 
record shows human-like anatomy starting about half a million 
years ago, but no evidence of symbolic thought or individual 
experimentation with / invention of tools prior to about the year 
-38K.  

Up to that point, you've just got a few classical tools, made 
the same way generation after generation after generation, and 
after that point you've suddenly got cave paintings, tools made 
out of unfamiliar materials, tools made for new purposes, people 
buried with grave goods (proof that someone at least thought 
*something* about death), sculptures of animals and carvings 
that could not serve as tools (and thus are probably classifiable
as art), etc.  

Something fundamental changed only 40,000 years ago, and even 
though there have been *anatomically* modern humans for about a 
half million years, I pretty strongly suspect that there weren't 
*mentally* modern humans until that change.  

It may have been the development of language that made the 
difference.  

				Ray





From billp at nmol.com  Fri Sep 15 17:11:31 2000
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:11:31 -0600
Subject: CDR: settlement
Message-ID: <39C2BAB3.98AE71FA@nmol.com>

Clinton

Let's get these clinton and gore messes settled.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/
http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/

worst
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/buehlerpayne.html

Time to get on to better things

http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/load2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Fri Sep 15 16:21:28 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:21:28 -0500
Subject: CDR: GAG ORDER LIFTED FOR ANNOY.COM PUBLISHER; APOLLOMEDIA
Message-ID: <39C2AEF8.83D21770@ssz.com>

http://www.annoy.com/cda/press/press_release013.html
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Fri Sep 15 16:25:17 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:25:17 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: SWAT Team Guns Down 11 Year Old
Message-ID: 

Motyka cried:

> What life was going to be saved by this armed raid? Shouldn't the
> standard for justifying such a raid be a bit higher than "it's a drug
> charge your honor?" Who elected the "law and order" morality-spewing
> politicians? We are our own worst enemy. We made this evil crawling
> monster.


   And what was that you were saying about McVeigh? 8-) There ain't
no other way we'll ever get rid of these monsters. 




From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Fri Sep 15 15:40:26 2000
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:40:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: Archive Resurrection Potentials...
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000915184026.0095f7a8@mail.internet-95.com>

Archive Resurrection Potentials...

-=|=-
[Relevance: Censorship, Restrictions and Usurption, Archives, Havenco,
Modern Fluff]


Whilest working on a simple project this afternoon, I came across the need
for multiple old files and programs which would serve ideally without
having to recode stuff we did years ago...

 Historically, these elements would be easily found on places like
ILF.net, LordSomer's, BroncBuster's, Silicon Toad's, and numerous other
related sites (Specialized in various fields)... 

Now, logic indicates that these files should be present on our heavily
censored phoney info-distribution centers managed by "you cant know what we
know" mentality orgs like Kroll and whatnot... But??? (The rest are quite
limited overall)

After further pondering, and some simple "research", I quickly confirmed
that current software developers (especially those requiring large $$ to
even use) have paid absolutely NO heed to their intellectual predecessors'
research and whatnot... 

Vulnerabilities cleaned prior 3+ years ago are now again open all over,
techniques and methods utilized in the most simple analysis long ago are
again even more potent and valid now, and such resurrection of these basic
technologies and methods into the current (obviously less aware) common
reality might serve quite well at refreshing the memory of those who
produce software and so easily forget that their "new" toy/system was once
the epitome of 'amusement' as it was ripped to shreds years ago... But how
would they know?

There are two complications here now... The finding of all related archives
may be quite taxing, as everyone has lost or eliminated data and archives
over time, however, I believe it would be quite beneficial to re-up various
file and website archives for common education...

We know that ILF.net's drive failure lost a majority of the server long
ago, however, there are absolutely no public caches of the contents of this
VERY Significant host (in the history of technology)... Various other
archives have long since been taken offline, yet there is a HIGH
probability that the community may be able to recompile the majority of
archives and information.

Although in most probability, there will be holes in each individual
archive, there are no holes across the collaborative...

I will assume the owners of places like "Infinity Void" and whatnot still
have at least some remnants of these projects? ;) (I have parts of others,
but not much of anything any more...)

Now... Logic states that re-awakening these old projects will come with
some potential problems from many sides... Although they are mere files,
all of which can be hosted on one physical server easily, there is need for
some type of centralized and impervious (haven) location for this array of
archives...

The resulting logic is obvious... Especially with the heavy
cross-involvement of each of the old entities with various modern projects...


What sayist the community to such a pursuit? I believe it would be ideal in
the common interest, and do nothing less than benefit the community as a
whole. (Even if limited in capability, such old code and archives may
easily serve both the (re?)education and nostalgia of the community...)

Shall we find all these old drives and ship data somewhere for an archive
to be parsed and sites resurrected?


-Wilfred L. Guerin
Wilfred at Cryogen.com


-=|=-







From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Fri Sep 15 16:23:08 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:23:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party - Sept. 21
References: 
Message-ID: <39C2AF45.DA80BC3C@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

Fisher Mark wrote:

> > The fact that _all_ of the so-called music entertainers at the SF
> > event are "trancers" is...symptomatic...of something.
>
> It's symptomatic of the age gap on the list -- you, me, RAH (now there's a
> combination) and others are *way* beyond the 20-something party crowd.  Even
> if I lived in the area, there'd be lots of stuff I'd rather do than go to
> the party.  I hope they have lots of (age-appropriate) fun, though.  A new
> (minor) era dawning and all that...

      Oh shit, speak for yourself, dude. I'm 57 and I love techno, trance, etc.
I even like to go to sleep at night listening to it. And I'd love to go raving,
if I was ever near one. Probably wouldn't turn down any enlightening chemicals
either.  8-)
      Grow old and senile if you want to -- I ain't interested in that rocking
chair. I may be slower and have less endurance, but at least my spirit is
willing and young.





From jis at MIT.EDU  Fri Sep 15 17:59:02 2000
From: jis at MIT.EDU (Jeffrey I. Schiller)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 20:59:02 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Canada outlaws anonymous remailers (was Re: GigaLaw.com DailyNews, 
 September 15, 2000)
References:  
Message-ID: <39C2C5D6.568A91AB@mit.edu>

I believe there is a difference between knowing who an "anonymous"
e-mailer is and wanting to avoid disclosing such information... and
operating a service where finding out is not possible (at least without
invasive means).

Its the old story, you cannot be subpoenaed to reveal information that
you simply do not have. Whether or not you are permitted to operate a
system so structured is another matter.

                -Jeff





From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 15 18:58:37 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:58:37 -0400
Subject: CDR: Good work by FBI and SEC on Emulex fraud case
Message-ID: 


I just watched the live press conference by the FBI, District 
Attorney's Office, and SEC folks. The full story should be on Yahoo 
and other news sites. The gist is that an arrest was made this 
morning.

A former Internet Wire employee, who left in early August, was the 
arrestee. Internet Wire was of course the service which passed on the 
false press release.

The e-mail was traced back to a public access computer at El Camino 
Community College, in the LA area. The arrestee was enrolled during 
the summer at this college, was known to use these computers, and in 
fact was seen last Thursday night using the public computers, at the 
time when the e-mail was sent from one of these computers (in a media 
lab of some sort).

The cops apparently correlated former and current Internet Wire (and 
probably other companies, like Emulex, Bloomberg, PR Newswire, etc.) 
with employees and students at El Camino.

The FBI/SEC obtained his stock trading records, determined that he 
had shorted Emulex at around $70, had then lost a lot of money as 
Emulex went up above $100, and then had bought stock in Emulex as the 
stock fell to $45 after the hoax. (There may have been various put 
and call trades...consult the detailed stories.)

In short, this was classic FBI and law enforcement legwork: 
correlations, subpoenas, and, as appropriate and with warrants, 
searches and arrests.

Kudos.

I mention this here on Cypherpunks because this is an example of how 
law enforcement should work.

By contrast, imagine the enforcement protocol in a Big Brotherish 
world of intercepts, escrow, bans on encryption, etc.

There _was_ some rhetoric at the press conference about "hiding 
behind the Internet." Of course, this message was not "strongly 
untraceable." It was almost trivially traceable. And traced to a 
former employee (probably disgruntled, but I am only speculating) of 
Internet Wire who had specific knowledge of how press releases were 
handled, how the authentication could be spoofed, etc.

Now, what if the perp had used "Cypherpunks technologies"? Aside from 
the likely subpoenas of Anonymizer, Inc., and varous remailers, the 
cops could have sought search warrants of the employees who departed, 
obtained records of their stock trades, etc.

Someday, truly strong methods will be more widespread. Along with 
trading accounts unlinkable to meatspace names.

Will this thwart such efforts to catch fraudsters? To some extent, yes.

However, such a world will produce other changes which work in the 
other direction. Digitally-signed press releases, for example, are 
easy to do. (And I expect them to start happening Real Soon Now. 
Possibly with the strong urging of the SEC and others.)

So, kudos to the FBI and SEC for their detective work. And let it be 
a lesson that we don't need a Big Brother world to stop computer 
crime.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From cypherpunks at ssz.com  Fri Sep 15 21:00:35 2000
From: cypherpunks at ssz.com (Mondavi)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:00:35 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200009160351.WAA18047@devmail.dev.tivoli.com>







From jimdbell at home.com  Fri Sep 15 23:33:50 2000
From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:33:50 -0700
Subject: CDR: Some interesting progress
Message-ID: <001001c01fa8$16766ac0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com>

Jessica and Darcy:

I've been doing a lot of local research at the Clark County (Washington)
courthouse, and by telephone to the Multnomah County (Oregon) and Clackamas
County (Oregon) , and I've discovered how the government thugs originally
paid off Ryan Thomas Lund.  They did it in two separate ways.

First:  Federal courts do sentencing on a matrix system, combining both
prior criminal history of the defendant and the seriousness of the existing
offense.    (See United States Sentencing Guide).   The government gave Lund
a phony sentence by manipulating both his "criminal history" and the
"offense level."   Lund was sentenced as if he had a criminal history
category of "V", when he should have been sentenced as if he was in column
"VI".  Lund was previously guilty of four felonies, and perhaps over 10
misdemeanors, easily justifying a column "VI" classification. ( Alone, this
would have increased his sentencing range from "27-30" months to "30-37"
months.)

But in addition, for the purposes of the sentencing the government also
faked the offense level:  Check Sentencing Guide 2K2.1, and you'll see as a
person previously guilty of two "controlled substances felonies" (one in
Clackamas County Or. and one in Clark County Wash., both in 1994) he should
have gotten a "base offense level" of (24-2=22), rather than the (14-2=12)
he was actually given.  (In either case, 2 points are usually removed for
"acceptance of responsibility.")

But in addition, Lund possessed a gun in connection with his ongoing
business of trafficking methamphetamine and buying and selling illegal
drugs, so he should have gotten an additional 4  points for that.
(28-2=26).     Check the sentencing matrix for the proper sentence for a
"criminal history" of "VI" and an offense level of 26, and you'll see that
his proper sentence should have been 120-150 months (10-12.5 years.)   (the
sentencing included a collusive "stipulation" by the government that he
didn't possess the gun in connection with that illegal activity, but in fact
the contrary was the case and the search warrant served July 2, 1997 was
obtained for the purposes of collecting drug-sales evidence.  (Check with
Portland BATF agent Mike McNall, who was present on the search, despite the
fact that it was not a Federal search warrant.  I suspect it was agent
McNall who did the deal with Lund.)

In short, Lund was saved about 8 years of time for...what???  Well, I know,
and you now already know because I've told you.  He was offered this deal,
probably on November 21, 1997,  for the "job" he agreed to do a few days
later for the government.  That "job" was a crime:  attacking and
intimidating me (which he did on November 25, 1997) to accept a phony,
crooked plea deal that the government never intended to honor.

The second way he was paid off is really interesting:  At the end of 1998,
Lund filed a lawsuit against the Federal government, based on the claim that
he had slipped and fallen while taking a shower while (alone, no witnesses,
etc)  in "the hole" on December 14, 1997.  This date was two days after my
sentencing date on December 12, 1997.  I suspect that my crooked lawyer
Peter Avenia passed the word to various other government people (prosecutor,
etc) that, to Avenia,  I accused Lund (and his handlers in the government)
of coordinating the attack.   I wouldn't be surprised to hear, later, that
the US Marshals actually got a hold of Lund and retaliated (by roughing him
up) against him for "spilling the beans".

In any case, apparently Lund had real injuries, although I don't know the
details.  The last reference in the civil case file was that the government
and Lund had settled the case (for what amount, they did not say) in August
2000.    I now have copies of that civil case file, as well as numerous
other Lund papers.  Wanna see 'em???

Jim Bell







From jimdbell at home.com  Fri Sep 15 23:34:08 2000
From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:34:08 -0700
Subject: CDR: Some interesting progress
Message-ID: <001601c01fa8$20a624e0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com>

Jessica and Darcy:

I've been doing a lot of local research at the Clark County (Washington)
courthouse, and by telephone to the Multnomah County (Oregon) and Clackamas
County (Oregon) , and I've discovered how the government thugs originally
paid off Ryan Thomas Lund.  They did it in two separate ways.

First:  Federal courts do sentencing on a matrix system, combining both
prior criminal history of the defendant and the seriousness of the existing
offense.    (See United States Sentencing Guide).   The government gave Lund
a phony sentence by manipulating both his "criminal history" and the
"offense level."   Lund was sentenced as if he had a criminal history
category of "V", when he should have been sentenced as if he was in column
"VI".  Lund was previously guilty of four felonies, and perhaps over 10
misdemeanors, easily justifying a column "VI" classification. ( Alone, this
would have increased his sentencing range from "27-30" months to "30-37"
months.)

But in addition, for the purposes of the sentencing the government also
faked the offense level:  Check Sentencing Guide 2K2.1, and you'll see as a
person previously guilty of two "controlled substances felonies" (one in
Clackamas County Or. and one in Clark County Wash., both in 1994) he should
have gotten a "base offense level" of (24-2=22), rather than the (14-2=12)
he was actually given.  (In either case, 2 points are usually removed for
"acceptance of responsibility.")

But in addition, Lund possessed a gun in connection with his ongoing
business of trafficking methamphetamine and buying and selling illegal
drugs, so he should have gotten an additional 4  points for that.
(28-2=26).     Check the sentencing matrix for the proper sentence for a
"criminal history" of "VI" and an offense level of 26, and you'll see that
his proper sentence should have been 120-150 months (10-12.5 years.)   (the
sentencing included a collusive "stipulation" by the government that he
didn't possess the gun in connection with that illegal activity, but in fact
the contrary was the case and the search warrant served July 2, 1997 was
obtained for the purposes of collecting drug-sales evidence.  (Check with
Portland BATF agent Mike McNall, who was present on the search, despite the
fact that it was not a Federal search warrant.  I suspect it was agent
McNall who did the deal with Lund.)

In short, Lund was saved about 8 years of time for...what???  Well, I know,
and you now already know because I've told you.  He was offered this deal,
probably on November 21, 1997,  for the "job" he agreed to do a few days
later for the government.  That "job" was a crime:  attacking and
intimidating me (which he did on November 25, 1997) to accept a phony,
crooked plea deal that the government never intended to honor.

The second way he was paid off is really interesting:  At the end of 1998,
Lund filed a lawsuit against the Federal government, based on the claim that
he had slipped and fallen while taking a shower while (alone, no witnesses,
etc)  in "the hole" on December 14, 1997.  This date was two days after my
sentencing date on December 12, 1997.  I suspect that my crooked lawyer
Peter Avenia passed the word to various other government people (prosecutor,
etc) that, to Avenia,  I accused Lund (and his handlers in the government)
of coordinating the attack.   I wouldn't be surprised to hear, later, that
the US Marshals actually got a hold of Lund and retaliated (by roughing him
up) against him for "spilling the beans".

In any case, apparently Lund had real injuries, although I don't know the
details.  The last reference in the civil case file was that the government
and Lund had settled the case (for what amount, they did not say) in August
2000.    I now have copies of that civil case file, as well as numerous
other Lund papers.  Wanna see 'em???

Jim Bell








From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 15 21:14:49 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:14:49 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>	
	 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>	
	 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>	
	 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>	
	 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> 
	 <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <39C2F3B9.5774@attglobal.net>

At $250.00 an hour.  In advance.

petro wrote:
> 
> >petro wrote:
> >>
> >>  >You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
> >>  >Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
> >>  >referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
> >>  >boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
> >>  >intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
> >>
> >>          Prove it.
> >>
> >>          Produce the documentation that makes that claim.
> >>
> >>          Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or
> >>  have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).
> 
>         There is this thing called "The internet". It's a wonderful
> method for spreading (dis-) information.
> 
>         Scan them, compress them, and mail them to me.
> --
> A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
> Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government
> of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
> Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let
> history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Fri Sep 15 21:30:03 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:30:03 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>
Message-ID: <39C2F74B.5035@attglobal.net>

T. Bankson Roach wrote:
> 
> "Jodi Hoffman"  sez:
> 
> > You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
> > Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
> > referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
> > boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
> > intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
> >
> 
> This is EXACTLY why nobody should try and censor their free speech!
> There are too many people who would say nobody could be sick , crazy, or
> despicable enough to advocate grown men having anal sex with an 8 year
> old boy. Let NAMBLA have their Web site so people can see just how
> disgusting they are. The purpose of free speech is to make us aware of
> what people REALLY think and feel. That's always good. What if people
> had known that butchers like Mao Tse Dung, Joe Stalin, Pol Pot and their
> ilk, really DID think it was OK to butcher millions? Then maybe a few of
> those damn fool left leaning dilberts would have thought twice before
> lining up to follow these butchers. As for Hitler, well it isn't because
> he didn't have the guts to tell people EXACTLY what he had in mind for
> various groups of people. So what is the liberal's idea of how to deal
> with this? Yes, it's to censor Mein Kampf! Then people can't read for
> themselves Hitler's outspoken plans and beliefs. At least Hitler was
> destroyed; the three communists I just mentioned are still held in
> reverence by millions of leftwingers across the globe. They still try to
> cover up their brutal plans with silly crap about the beloved "masses".
> 
> Of course we now live in the gutless wimpy age of the politically
> correct, so what can you expect. Nobody today dare say that cramming
> your penis up another man's feces filled ass might not be a good health
> plan during the AIDS epidemic, which they are horrified to admit started
> as a direct result of such filth covered "fun". Now people fear earning
> the pervert's wrath.
> 
> Does anybody with half a brain not realize that is exactly why NAMBLA is
> taking an activist approach? As soon as Hollywood churns out some
> "stars" who advocate sex with boys, or babies, well far too many of the
> public will soon be demanding the right to assault the children. Why, it
> won't be long before they say it should be the right of the pervert to
> marry the child. The "gays" are living proof of how Hollywood, liberals,
> and perverts can convert what were once considered a horrible sickness
> to an idealized and respected life style.
> 
> Today, if you kill somebody the liberals want to know why. If it's a fag
> killing a Nazi, he might get a pass. If it's a Nazi killing a fag,
> forget the trial and lynch them, whoops, make that sue them! As the
> great George Orwell once said in Animal Farm, his lampoon of leftist
> twaddle, "Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others"
> [sic?]. I am sorry to say that if allowed to present their beliefs, it
> is possible that NAMBLA might win win the favor of today's brain dead
> public. Well, so be it. Nobody with half a brain ever said we shouldn't
> suffer the consequences of our own idiocy.
> 
> America used to be about free speech. It was at one time considered one
> of the great principles that separated us from the other nations. In
> England, a country we wisely separated ourselves from, you are now
> forbidden to send an encrypted message to a friend without fearing
> imprisonment if you fail to provide the government with the "key" to the
> message. Screw King George. Real freedom of speech  means you can scream
> "fire" in a crowded theater. People should look around for smoke and
> flames and, if present, then proceed in an orderly fashion for the exit.
> Instead, the new idea is to deny the fire and burn quietly.
> 
> Sorry, it's time to go watch Will and Grace. Can't happen here? It
> already has. Repeat after me "Four legs good, two legs bad!"
> 
> Tom Roach

	It's already been demanded, Tom.  During the Gay Pride March on 
Washington, the state and federal demands included:

	1)	Repeal of all age-of-consent laws (for sex with kids);

	2)	Repeal of ALL marriage laws (3 men, 4 kids, 1 baby...);

	3)	Repeal of all public sex laws (including with kids);

	4)	Repeal of all laws against prostitution(even children);

	5)	Repeal of all sodomy laws (even with kids);

	6)	Federal funding of all sex-change operations;

	7)	Federal funding of artificial insemination of lesbians;

	8)	total access to Boy Scouts by male homosexuals;

	9)	sex ed taught by homosexuals in all public schools;

	and more.......
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From moneyconcepts at in-box.net  Sat Sep 16 00:40:00 2000
From: moneyconcepts at in-box.net (moneyconcepts at in-box.net)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 00:40:00
Subject: CDR: U Missed Microsoft, Don't Miss This!
Message-ID: <146.72743.695128@www.guponexon.com>

Dear Investor:
 
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From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 15 23:14:57 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:14:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: <20000916155558.C398@lanesbry.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sat, 16 Sep 2000, Ralph Seberry wrote:

> This is described in detail in "Many Colored Land" by Julian May (no relation.)
> Are you sure you haven't confused fact with fiction, Jim?

Yes. I am sure they are not confused.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep 15 23:22:43 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:22:43 -0500
Subject: CDR: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
Message-ID: <39C311B3.CAF669A7@ssz.com>

Search 'in page' for 'waterfall'...

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/messin.htm


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Fri Sep 15 22:55:49 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:55:49 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: SWAT Team Guns Down 11 Year Old In His Own Home
In-Reply-To: Eric Cordian's message of "Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:08:10 -0400"
References: <200009151505.KAA74452@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: <84bsxog9t4.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Eric Cordian  writes:

> http://www.modbee.com/metro/story/0,1113,194747,00.html
> 
> An 11-year-old Modesto boy was fatally shot early Wednesday morning
> when police SWAT team officers on a federal narcotics sweep raided his
> parents' home. Police said the shooting was an accident.
>    
> Alberto Sepulveda, a seventh-grader at Prescott Senior Elementary
> School, was pronounced dead in his home at 2524 McAdoo Ave., just east
> of Highway 99 in the north Modesto neighborhood commonly known as
> Highway Village. He died from one shotgun round to the back, Police
> Chief Roy Wasden said.

How very odd. If I stop a psychopath from gunning down an entire mall
full of people by shooting him a few times in the back, the government
would most likely have me arrested, hauled downtown for questioning,
and I would be demonized by the media. I might even be charged for
some bullshit "weapons violation." And HEAVEN FORBID that in the
process of stopping dozens of people from being killed one of my
bullets go through the gunman and hit a bystander, or that I simply
miss and hit a bystander. In that case, the USG and courts wouldn't
care how many lives I saved. They wouldn't say "shit happens" and let
me off the hook. There would be national outrage probably.

Yet the government can execute a predawn raid in a residential area
and shoot an 11-year-old (doubtless wielding an "assault pencil") with
a shotgun in the back? No questions asked, no national media coverage,
no national outrage? Disgusting.

Oh, I forgot. It was a drug raid, and it was executed by the USG.
That makes it all okay. Particularly that last part.





From tcmay at got.net  Fri Sep 15 23:09:53 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 02:09:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: SWAT Team Guns Down 11 Year Old In His Own Home
In-Reply-To: <84bsxog9t4.fsf@athena.dhis.org>
References: <200009151505.KAA74452@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 1:55 AM -0400 9/16/00, David Marshall wrote:
>
>How very odd. If I stop a psychopath from gunning down an entire mall
>full of people by shooting him a few times in the back, the government
>would most likely have me arrested, hauled downtown for questioning,
>and I would be demonized by the media. I might even be charged for
>some bullshit "weapons violation." And HEAVEN FORBID that in the
>process of stopping dozens of people from being killed one of my
>bullets go through the gunman and hit a bystander, or that I simply
>miss and hit a bystander. In that case, the USG and courts wouldn't
>care how many lives I saved. They wouldn't say "shit happens" and let
>me off the hook. There would be national outrage probably.
>
>Yet the government can execute a predawn raid in a residential area
>and shoot an 11-year-old (doubtless wielding an "assault pencil") with
>a shotgun in the back? No questions asked, no national media coverage,
>no national outrage? Disgusting.
>
>Oh, I forgot. It was a drug raid, and it was executed by the USG.
>That makes it all okay. Particularly that last part.


Welcome to Amerika.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From info0102 at whiteraintime.com  Sat Sep 16 00:33:16 2000
From: info0102 at whiteraintime.com (info0102 at whiteraintime.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 02:33:16 -0500
Subject: CDR: FREE TRAVEL & BIZ OPP!!!!
Message-ID: 

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From petro at bounty.org  Sat Sep 16 03:05:18 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 03:05:18 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Canada outlaws anonymous remailers (was Re: GigaLaw.com
 DailyNews,   September 15, 2000)
In-Reply-To: <39C2C5D6.568A91AB@mit.edu>
References:   <39C2C5D6.568A91AB@mit.edu>
Message-ID: 

>I believe there is a difference between knowing who an "anonymous"
>e-mailer is and wanting to avoid disclosing such information... and
>operating a service where finding out is not possible (at least without
>invasive means).
>
>Its the old story, you cannot be subpoenaed to reveal information that
>you simply do not have. Whether or not you are permitted to operate a
>system so structured is another matter.

	You *can* be subpoenaed for that information, you just aren't 
capable of providing it.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Sep 16 06:06:35 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 03:06:35 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C2F3B9.5774@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 
 <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>
 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000916030452.00c61bd0@flex.com>

At 12:14 AM 16/09/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
 >At $250.00 an hour.  In advance.

Callgirlie wages and stipulations.

I hold you in new regard.

It's a step in a new direction, Jodi, do we need to explore it?

 >petro wrote:
 >>
 >> >petro wrote:
 >> >>
 >> >>  >You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
 >> >>  >Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
 >> >>  >referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
 >> >>  >boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
 >> >>  >intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
 >> >>
 >> >>          Prove it.
 >> >>
 >> >>          Produce the documentation that makes that claim.
 >> >>
 >> >>          Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or
 >> >>  have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).
 >>
 >>         There is this thing called "The internet". It's a wonderful
 >> method for spreading (dis-) information.
 >>
 >>         Scan them, compress them, and mail them to me.
 >> --
 >> A quote from Petro's Archives:
 >**********************************************
 >> Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government
 >> of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
 >> Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let
 >> history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural
 >
 >--
 >"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
 >the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
 >R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
 >
 >Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
 >Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
 >2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
 >TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From MAILER-DAEMON at mail.utexas.edu  Fri Sep 15 20:51:58 2000
From: MAILER-DAEMON at mail.utexas.edu (MAILER-DAEMON at mail.utexas.edu)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 03:51:58 -0000
Subject: CDR: failure notice
Message-ID: <200009160411.XAA04184@einstein.ssz.com>

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mail.utexas.edu.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.

:
Recipient's mailbox is full, message returned to sender. (#5.2.2)

--- Below this line is a copy of the message.


From ralph at lanesbry.com  Sat Sep 16 01:01:09 2000
From: ralph at lanesbry.com (Ralph Seberry)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 04:01:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
In-Reply-To: <39C311B3.CAF669A7@ssz.com>; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 02:03:52AM -0400
References: <39C311B3.CAF669A7@ssz.com>
Message-ID: <20000916185813.A2407@lanesbry.com>

On Saturday, 16 Sep 2000 at 02:03, Jim Choate  wrote:
> Search 'in page' for 'waterfall'...
> 
> http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/messin.htm
> 

Sorry I doubted you.
"HTTP Error 503: Service Unavailable."

(OK, OK, so you probably looked at the cached copy in google,
 and I'll take your word for its contents.)





From holovacs at idt.net  Sat Sep 16 03:27:30 2000
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 06:27:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C2F74B.5035@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net>

Jodi's fantasy world again.

Ok Jodi..document your claims

which 'march on Washington"

Please specifiy who made these 'demands' and the actual quotes involved
(not your imaginative paraphrases)

Of course, if your past behavior on this list is any indicator, statements
were wildly interpreted to suit your strawman perceptions, and I suspect
actual quotes will not be forthcoming.

jay


At 12:30 AM 9/16/2000 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>	It's already been demanded, Tom.  During the Gay Pride March on 
>Washington, the state and federal demands included:
>
>	1)	Repeal of all age-of-consent laws (for sex with kids);
>
>	2)	Repeal of ALL marriage laws (3 men, 4 kids, 1 baby...);
>
>	3)	Repeal of all public sex laws (including with kids);
>
>	4)	Repeal of all laws against prostitution(even children);
>
>	5)	Repeal of all sodomy laws (even with kids);
>
>	6)	Federal funding of all sex-change operations;
>
>	7)	Federal funding of artificial insemination of lesbians;
>
>	8)	total access to Boy Scouts by male homosexuals;
>
>	9)	sex ed taught by homosexuals in all public schools;
>
>	and more.......
>-- 




From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 16 06:24:35 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:24:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
In-Reply-To: <20000916185813.A2407@lanesbry.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sat, 16 Sep 2000, Ralph Seberry wrote:

> On Saturday, 16 Sep 2000 at 02:03, Jim Choate  wrote:
> > Search 'in page' for 'waterfall'...
> > 
> > http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/messin.htm
> > 
> 
> Sorry I doubted you.
> "HTTP Error 503: Service Unavailable."
> 
> (OK, OK, so you probably looked at the cached copy in google,
>  and I'll take your word for its contents.)

No, you have problems on your end, possibly two.

1.	I sent the page attached

2.	The page isn't cached, you can't copy correctly.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 16 06:27:43 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:27:43 -0500
Subject: CDR: Messinian Salinity Crisis - Select Bibliography for Students (Again for those browser challenged)
Message-ID: <39C3754F.89608C7D@ssz.com>

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/messin.htm


-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: messin.htm
Type: text/html
Size: 31221 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep 16 06:36:37 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:36:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Quantum computing - infinite storage in an electron?
Message-ID: 


http://www.eet.com/story/0EG20000831S0019

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From saynaaa at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 16 01:46:47 2000
From: saynaaa at hotmail.com (dark horse horse)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:46:47 GMT
Subject: CDR: is there any way ?
Message-ID: 

hello :)

is there any way to9 tell anyone crack into a spacial
webpage or email ?


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Sat Sep 16 06:02:19 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:02:19 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
References: <39C311B3.CAF669A7@ssz.com> <20000916185813.A2407@lanesbry.com>
Message-ID: <39C36F48.8D2BB619@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

    That URL works fine for me -- don't know what your problem is.

Ralph Seberry wrote:

> On Saturday, 16 Sep 2000 at 02:03, Jim Choate  wrote:
> > Search 'in page' for 'waterfall'...
> >
> > http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/messin.htm
> >
>
> Sorry I doubted you.
> "HTTP Error 503: Service Unavailable."
>
> (OK, OK, so you probably looked at the cached copy in google,
>  and I'll take your word for its contents.)





From lawringschaka at lycos.com  Sat Sep 16 10:11:42 2000
From: lawringschaka at lycos.com (lawringschaka)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 00 10:11:42 Pacific Daylight Time
Subject: attention needed
Message-ID: <200209162147.g8GLlEkJ015788@ak47.algebra.com>





From:  South  Africa.
Hello,
How are you?
Although we have not met before,but this golden opportunity will bind us together.
I am a retired Airforce pilot, and currently the chairman of the procurement committee
for South Africa Air defence. I need your coperation. A recent contract for the purchase of
Fighter/bomber planes was awarded, but we inflated the contract value with Ten Million
Pound Sterlings. We need  a Third Party for the collection of  this excess value, we are highly connected and there is no risk involved, you will not appear in person for the collection of the said sum. We shall give you 15% commission. If you are
interested get back to me and include your Telephone number so that I will give you further information. If you want call me, put your country acess code+2348033361804 and dial direct. Keep secret.
Best regards,
Mr Rawlings C.

    

From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 16 08:46:52 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:46:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
	 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
	 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
	 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
	 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
	 <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu> <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net>
Message-ID: <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net>

In 1972 (the year before the APA unilaterally decided 
homosexuality was "no longer an illness") the Gay Rights Platform was 
drawn up at the convention of the National Coalition of Gay Organizers. 
 It was officially set forth at the Gay Pride March on Washington, D.C. 
on April 25, 1993 and has been reinforced every year since.  

	By the way, a couple more of the demands:

	1)	Demand that contraceptives and abortion services be made 
		available to all persons, regardless of age (what the 
		hell does that matter to homosexuals???);

	2)	Full inclusion of lesbians, homosexual men, bisexuals 	
		and transgenders in education of children and child 	
		care;

	3)	 Legalization of all forms of sexual expression, 
		including pedophilia, changing age of consent laws to 
		allow sex with children;

	4)	demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to 
		cover AIDS patients' medical expenses...  

	The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS 
funding.  That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which 
is more funding than all forms of cancer combined.  Current Federal 
Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per  death:

	AIDS/HIV:	$39,172.00
	Diabetes:	$ 5,449.00
	Cancer:		$ 3,776.00
	Heart Disease:	$ 1,056.00
	Stroke:		$   765.00

	What's wrong with this picture?	You don't get cancer by engaging 
in promiscuous sex.  Funding should not be based on sexual behaviors.


Jay Holovacs wrote:


> 
> Jodi's fantasy world again.
> 
> Ok Jodi..document your claims
> 
> which 'march on Washington"
> 
> Please specifiy who made these 'demands' and the actual quotes involved
> (not your imaginative paraphrases)
> 
> Of course, if your past behavior on this list is any indicator, statements
> were wildly interpreted to suit your strawman perceptions, and I suspect
> actual quotes will not be forthcoming.
> 
> jay
> 
> At 12:30 AM 9/16/2000 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> >       It's already been demanded, Tom.  During the Gay Pride March on
> >Washington, the state and federal demands included:
> >
> >       1)      Repeal of all age-of-consent laws (for sex with kids);
> >
> >       2)      Repeal of ALL marriage laws (3 men, 4 kids, 1 baby...);
> >
> >       3)      Repeal of all public sex laws (including with kids);
> >
> >       4)      Repeal of all laws against prostitution(even children);
> >
> >       5)      Repeal of all sodomy laws (even with kids);
> >
> >       6)      Federal funding of all sex-change operations;
> >
> >       7)      Federal funding of artificial insemination of lesbians;
> >
> >       8)      total access to Boy Scouts by male homosexuals;
> >
> >       9)      sex ed taught by homosexuals in all public schools;
> >
> >       and more.......
> >--

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Sat Sep 16 08:48:26 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:48:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
	 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
	 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
	 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
	 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
	 
	 <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>
	  <4.3.2.7.2.20000916030452.00c61bd0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <39C3964A.620E@attglobal.net>

Feel free.

eese wrote:
> 
> At 12:14 AM 16/09/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>  >At $250.00 an hour.  In advance.
> 
> Callgirlie wages and stipulations.
> 
> I hold you in new regard.
> 
> It's a step in a new direction, Jodi, do we need to explore it?
> 
>  >petro wrote:
>  >>
>  >> >petro wrote:
>  >> >>
>  >> >>  >You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
>  >> >>  >Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
>  >> >>  >referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
>  >> >>  >boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
>  >> >>  >intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
>  >> >>
>  >> >>          Prove it.
>  >> >>
>  >> >>          Produce the documentation that makes that claim.
>  >> >>
>  >> >>          Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or
>  >> >>  have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).
>  >>
>  >>         There is this thing called "The internet". It's a wonderful
>  >> method for spreading (dis-) information.
>  >>
>  >>         Scan them, compress them, and mail them to me.
>  >> --
>  >> A quote from Petro's Archives:
>  >**********************************************
>  >> Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government
>  >> of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
>  >> Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let
>  >> history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural
>  >
>  >--
>  >"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
>  >the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
>  >R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
>  >
>  >Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
>  >Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
>  >2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
>  >TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From honig at sprynet.com  Sat Sep 16 08:49:46 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:49:46 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C2F74B.5035@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000916084014.0081ca40@pop.sprynet.com>


On Hoffman's superstition-based rants about behavior and age



At 12:48 AM 9/16/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>	It's already been demanded, Tom.  During the Gay Pride March on 
>Washington, the state and federal demands included:
>
>	1)	Repeal of all age-of-consent laws (for sex with kids);

At some age people are able to sign binding contracts.  Once you
can, you are self-sovereign.

>	2)	Repeal of ALL marriage laws (3 men, 4 kids, 1 baby...);

Polyamorous relationships are consensual, ergo not regulable.  Same with 
N=1 families (ie single parents), or serially polyamorous Americans
(fuck, marry, kids, divorce, repeat with someone else).

>	3)	Repeal of all public sex laws (including with kids);

What laws are these?

>
>	4)	Repeal of all laws against prostitution(even children);

Prostitution is a voluntary transaction.  Individuals are either
competent to get into binding agreements or not.


>	5)	Repeal of all sodomy laws (even with kids);

Once again you have no moral basis for regulating others behaviors.

>	6)	Federal funding of all sex-change operations;

Any state funded medicine is socialism.  

>	7)	Federal funding of artificial insemination of lesbians;

See #6

>	8)	total access to Boy Scouts by male homosexuals;

Boy scouts are a private club, they can do what they want, but
not at public expense.

>	9)	sex ed taught by homosexuals in all public schools;

States should not be running compulsory youth indoctrination centers,
period.












  








From tammy at KNFP.dollhaven.net  Sat Sep 16 12:09:51 2000
From: tammy at KNFP.dollhaven.net (tammy at KNFP.dollhaven.net)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: DOLL LOVERS..... CHECK THIS OUT! -CFLS
Message-ID: <200009161909.MAA28525@cyberpass.net>


Doll Haven
939 W Main St
Troy Ohio 45373
937-339-9799
www.dollhaven.net


Quality greenware, Porcelain dolls, Apple Valley Vinyl Doll Kits are just a few of the things that 
you may find here.  Doll Haven carries all the necessary supplies to complete your doll!   From 
eyes, wigs, lashes, shoes, dresses, stands, etc.   If we don't carry it, we can try to find what 
you're looking for.

Portrait dolls are dolls sculpted by Tammy Sharpe from clay.   Taken from a picture, a 
porcelain doll can be made to look like the person in the picture.   After the sculpt is done in 
clay,  molds will be made from plaster and then poured up in porcelain.    All Portrait dolls are 
one of a kind dolls and the molds are destroyed after doll is completed.   Wouldn't it be great 
to have a look-a-like doll made of someone you know?   Quotes given upon request.

Repair work of any kind is meticulously done at Doll Haven!  If you have a poor little baby that 
is broken, quotes are given over the phone, through email, or upon arrival of doll through 
Postal Service.  Composition repair a specialty!  Crazing, cracking of the paint, on a 
composition doll is restored back to it's original luster.  Any kind of repair welcome so those 
little dolls can be back out on display.  

Feel free to browse awhile through the on-line store!  You may call or email with any 
questions you might have.  Advise given out with a smile!  

Thank you for your time and I hope I can be of some service for you!

Tammy Sharpe

If your would like to be removed from receiving email from Doll Haven, just reply back with 
remove in the subject line.  Your name will then be permanently removed.





From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sat Sep 16 09:25:58 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:25:58 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu> <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net> <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <001701c01ffa$cc16b860$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

> 4) demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to 
> cover AIDS patients' medical expenses...  
> 
> The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS 
> funding.  That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which 
> is more funding than all forms of cancer combined.  Current Federal 
> Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per  death:

Jodi is apparently oblivious to the fact that AIDS is not the single
largest cause of death in Africa. It is also a disease that affects the
young. Research into the diseases of old age is unlikely to cause
a significant extension of the patients lifetime. That is why cancer
recieves more funding than heart disease.

Spending the federal defense budget on almost anything other
than military pork would be a good thing. The US millitary budget
is more than half the discressionary spending of the US. It is
greater than the combined spending of all the NATO allies
combined and of the combined budget of the 19 other countries 
in the top 20 mmilitary spending nations.

If the US military has a preparedness problem the problem is 
not lack of resources. Why is it that the people who always say 
that a problem cant be solved by spending more money sing a
different tune for military spending?

    Phill





From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Sat Sep 16 09:36:28 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 12:36:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 Sep 2000 11:46:52 EDT."
             <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <200009161636.MAA12387@hodge-podge.mit.edu>

> In 1972 (the year before the APA unilaterally decided 
> homosexuality was "no longer an illness") the Gay Rights Platform was 
> drawn up at the convention of the National Coalition of Gay Organizers. 
>  It was officially set forth at the Gay Pride March on Washington, D.C. 
> on April 25, 1993 and has been reinforced every year since.  

If it was 'officially set forth'
one would think you could produce quotes 
rather than paraphrases.

And maybe name the correct organization.
(NCGO doesn't seem to exist, if Altavista is anything to go by)




From webmaster at troppolotto.com  Sat Sep 16 06:50:10 2000
From: webmaster at troppolotto.com (TroppoLotto)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 13:50:10 -0000
Subject: CDR: TroppoLotto presents eHarlequin.com
Message-ID: <20000916135010.25067.qmail@qm-4.troppolotto.com>

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From Customer.Service.Dept. at inter.net  Sat Sep 16 13:55:47 2000
From: Customer.Service.Dept. at inter.net (Service at  Internet)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 13:55:47
Subject: CDR: ***FREE LONG DISTANCE***
Message-ID: <200009161758.KAA06480@toad.com>

..will soon be here, but for now the next best thing is 4.9 cents per minute, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week WITH NO MINIMUMS!!  Just call TOLL FREE 1-877-794-1900 24 hours a day, 7 days, answer a few simple questions and you're connected!!  IT'S FREE TO SIGN UP!!  When prompted, enter Representative ID Number 0413721.  Start saving today with the lowest long distance rates in the US!!  Call RIGHT NOW!!!

ACN Global Connect Long Distance Service





From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sat Sep 16 12:25:45 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:25:45 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <200009161636.MAA12387@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <001d01c02013$ec06a5e0$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>


> If it was 'officially set forth'
> one would think you could produce quotes 
> rather than paraphrases.
> 
> And maybe name the correct organization.
> (NCGO doesn't seem to exist, if Altavista is anything to go by)

Try looking under the protocols of the elders of Zion.

        Phill 




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sat Sep 16 12:32:37 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:32:37 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu> <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net> <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net> <001701c01ffa$cc16b860$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <002501c02014$df9829e0$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>


> > 4) demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to 
> > cover AIDS patients' medical expenses...  
> > 
> > The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS 
> > funding.  That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which 
> > is more funding than all forms of cancer combined.  Current Federal 
> > Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per  death:
> 
> Jodi is apparently oblivious to the fact that AIDS is not the single
> largest cause of death in Africa. 

That should of course be is the single largest cause.

    Phill




From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Sat Sep 16 12:39:40 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:39:40 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:25:45 EDT."
             <001d01c02013$ec06a5e0$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net> 
Message-ID: <200009161939.PAA17679@x15-cruise-basselope.mit.edu>

> 
> > If it was 'officially set forth'
> > one would think you could produce quotes 
> > rather than paraphrases.
> > 
> > And maybe name the correct organization.
> > (NCGO doesn't seem to exist, if Altavista is anything to go by)
> 
> Try looking under the protocols of the elders of Zion.

All of the gay organizations were disowned by the Elders
after an ILGO official criticized the Elder Chairman's choice
of cilantro over parsley in the chicken salad at the last
conference. She's a bit touchy about such things.




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Sat Sep 16 15:50:51 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:50:51 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C2F74B.5035@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000916155051.039ba5b0@mrlizard.com>

At 12:30 AM 9/16/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>	It's already been demanded, Tom.  During the Gay Pride March on 
>Washington, the state and federal demands included:
>
>	1)	Repeal of all age-of-consent laws (for sex with kids);
>
Etc...

"..the right to petition the government for the redress of grievences..."

ANYONE can demand ANYTHING from the government. And they can try to
*convince* a sufficiently large %age of the population to vote for it.

It doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Let's see.

You don't approve of free speech.

You don't approve of freedom of religion.

You don't approve of the right to petition the government.

Tell me, Jodi, is there any part of the First Amendment you DO support? You
know, Cuba is just a short swim from Florida. You'd like it there. No free
speech, no free religion, no protests...your ideal society.




From ralph at lanesbry.com  Fri Sep 15 21:55:58 2000
From: ralph at lanesbry.com (Ralph Seberry)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:55:58 +1100
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Thu, Sep 14, 2000 at 08:12:34PM -0500
References:  
Message-ID: <20000916155558.C398@lanesbry.com>

On Thursday, 14 Sep 2000 at 20:12, Jim Choate  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> > Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was
> > dry at one time,
> 

> The most recent time the Atlantic broke through at Gibralter there was a
> waterfall that was several thousand feet high.

This is described in detail in "Many Colored Land" by Julian May (no relation.)
Are you sure you haven't confused fact with fiction, Jim?




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Sat Sep 16 15:56:59 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 15:56:59 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>
 <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000916155659.039c3100@mrlizard.com>

At 11:46 AM 9/16/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>In 1972 (the year before the APA unilaterally decided 
>homosexuality was "no longer an illness") the Gay Rights Platform was 
>drawn up at the convention of the National Coalition of Gay Organizers. 
> It was officially set forth at the Gay Pride March on Washington, D.C. 
>on April 25, 1993 and has been reinforced every year since.  
>
>	By the way, a couple more of the demands:
>
>	1)	Demand that contraceptives and abortion services be made 
>		available to all persons, regardless of age (what the 
>		hell does that matter to homosexuals???);
>
i'm opposed to all government-funded health care;but, if we ARE stuck with
it, it ought to be for all, and, of course, no PRIVATE company should be
forced to discriminate on the basis of age.

>	2)	Full inclusion of lesbians, homosexual men, bisexuals 	
>		and transgenders in education of children and child 	
>		care;
>
Seems reasonable to me. Why not? A heterosexual is as likely to be a child
molestor as anyone else.

>	3)	 Legalization of all forms of sexual expression, 
>		including pedophilia, changing age of consent laws to 
>		allow sex with children;
>
They're already down to 14 in Bible belt states like Arkansas...

>	4)	demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to 
>		cover AIDS patients' medical expenses...  
>
>	The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS 
>funding.  That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which 
>is more funding than all forms of cancer combined.  Current Federal 
>Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per  death:
>
>	AIDS/HIV:	$39,172.00
>	Diabetes:	$ 5,449.00
>	Cancer:		$ 3,776.00
>	Heart Disease:	$ 1,056.00
>	Stroke:		$   765.00
>
>	What's wrong with this picture?	You don't get cancer by engaging 
>in promiscuous sex.  Funding should not be based on sexual behaviors.
>
Government shouldn't be funding medical care at all. However, deciding what
to fund on the basis of some moral judgement is folly. Cancer, diabetes,
and strokes *ARE NOT CONTAGIOUS*;AIDS is. That makes it far more of a
'public' health threat, and thus, by the logic of 'public health care', the
most likely target.

Besides -- you get strokes from eating hamburgers, cancer from smoking, and
adult-onset diabetes from too much chocalte and not enough exercise. All of
these are sins (Gluttony, laziness, etc) in the Christian morality as well
-- shouldn't we be "punishing" those sinners as well as gay people?




From reeza at flex.com  Sat Sep 16 20:00:24 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:00:24 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C3964A.620E@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 
 <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>
 
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000916030452.00c61bd0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000916165307.00c75c80@flex.com>

At 11:48 AM 16/09/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
 >
 >Reese wrote:
 >>
 >>At 12:14 AM 16/09/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
 >>>At $250.00 an hour.  In advance.
 >>
 >>Callgirlie wages and stipulations.
 >>
 >>I hold you in new regard.
 >>
 >>It's a step in a new direction, Jodi, do we need to explore it?
 >
 >Feel free.

Hey, it's your move.  What's that $250 good for, anyway?




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sat Sep 16 16:52:42 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:52:42 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu> <3.0.5.32.20000916155051.039ba5b0@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <007b01c02039$34d3e2e0$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

> You don't approve of free speech.
>
> You don't approve of freedom of religion.
>
> You don't approve of the right to petition the government.
>
> Tell me, Jodi, is there any part of the First Amendment you DO support?
You
> know, Cuba is just a short swim from Florida. You'd like it there. No free
> speech, no free religion, no protests...your ideal society.

Nahh, far to liberal for her. How about Burma?

        Phill




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Sat Sep 16 20:58:12 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 20:58:12 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <000701c02059$b3b90840$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>
 <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net>
 <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net>
 <001701c01ffa$cc16b860$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000916205812.0399c6d0@mrlizard.com>

At 11:45 PM 9/16/00 -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>> The military is currently cannibalizing everything it can 
>> to keep as many units as it possibly can active.  
>
>If less of the 'defense' budget ended up spent on barracks 
>that serve no military purpose, planes that the Pentagon don't
>want and gold plated research projects, there would be no
>problem.

Actually, as we drift typically off-topic, I thought the main problem was
the curse of a booming economy -- no one needs to join the military just
because they're hiring. We no longer have a literal army of the desperate
to feed into the military machine.




From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Sat Sep 16 12:32:01 2000
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 21:32:01 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: SWAT Team Guns Down 11 Year Old In His Own Home (fwd)
Message-ID: <1ba490cc4d9898565ab819e3a79e32c5@remailer.privacy.at>

No doubt this 11-year-old's death will be counted in the gungrabber's
statistics on chiiiiiiiiildren killed by firearms.

Figures.




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Sat Sep 16 20:01:04 2000
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 22:01:04 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <001701c01ffa$cc16b860$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>
 <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net>
 <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net>
 <001701c01ffa$cc16b860$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: 

At 12:25 -0400 9/16/00, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>Spending the federal defense budget on almost anything other
>than military pork would be a good thing. The US millitary budget
>is more than half the discressionary spending of the US. It is
>greater than the combined spending of all the NATO allies
>combined and of the combined budget of the 19 other countries
>in the top 20 mmilitary spending nations.

LOL!!!!  God I love weasel words.  The key word here is 
*discressionary*.  Yes, if you through out social security then the 
military is almost half of the budget (your exaggerating slightly, 
but I'll let it slide).  The reason is that MORE THAN HALF of the US 
budget goes to SOCIAL SECURITY which is considered 
"nondiscressionary*.  If you look at the total US budget military 
spending hovers right around  20%, interestingly enough roughly the 
same percentage it was before WWI and WWII.  And yes, we spend more 
money than the rest of NATO combined.  We also have a bigger economy 
than the rest of NATO combined.  HEll, ignoring turkey we have more 
territory than the rest of NATO combined!

>If the US military has a preparedness problem the problem is
>not lack of resources. Why is it that the people who always say
>that a problem cant be solved by spending more money sing a
>different tune for military spending?

I'm sorry, your wrong.  I'm not entirely certain that we should be 
asking are military to do what we are asking them to do (Bosnia, 
Iraq, Somalia, Haiti, etc.), but as the saying goes, the cats out of 
the bag.  The military is currently cannibalizing everything it can 
to keep as many units as it possibly can active.  They are being 
asked to fight what amount to repeated wars with zero increase in 
there budget, a budget primarily designed for training and 
maintenance of equipment, the mass moves and long term actions they 
are being required to do.  On my last ROTC FTX I was issued 10 rounds 
of ammunition for an  entire days worth of maneuvers.  This is not 
dissimilar to the practice of issuing broomsticks as rifle 
substitutes during the rearming prior to our entry into WWII.
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From cmcurtin at interhack.net  Sat Sep 16 19:25:09 2000
From: cmcurtin at interhack.net (Matt Curtin)
Date: 16 Sep 2000 22:25:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: COPPA
In-Reply-To: 's message of "Thu, 31 Aug 2000 10:30:35 0"
References: <200008311607.JAA18497@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <86snqz69h6.fsf@strangepork.interhack.net>

>>>>> "jfanonymous" == jfanonymous   writes:

  jfanonymous> "COPPA, AKA Children Loose their Right to Free Speech Online"
  jfanonymous> - ME

How, exactly, is the speech of children inhibited by COPPA?

-- 
Matt Curtin cmcurtin at interhack.net http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sat Sep 16 20:45:18 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:45:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu> <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net> <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net> <001701c01ffa$cc16b860$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net> 
Message-ID: <000701c02059$b3b90840$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

> The military is currently cannibalizing everything it can 
> to keep as many units as it possibly can active.  

If less of the 'defense' budget ended up spent on barracks 
that serve no military purpose, planes that the Pentagon don't
want and gold plated research projects, there would be no
problem.

        Phill




From ralph at lanesbry.com  Sat Sep 16 22:17:37 2000
From: ralph at lanesbry.com (Ralph Seberry)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 01:17:37 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
In-Reply-To: <39C36F48.8D2BB619@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>; from hseaver@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 09:02:19AM -0400
References: <39C311B3.CAF669A7@ssz.com> <20000916185813.A2407@lanesbry.com> <39C36F48.8D2BB619@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
Message-ID: <20000917161501.A19826@lanesbry.com>

On Saturday, 16 Sep 2000 at 09:02, Harmon Seaver  wrote:
>     That URL works fine for me -- don't know what your problem is.
> 

works now, it was a transient error.

Nothing about "thousand feet" waterfalls that I could see, Jim.





From mischief at lanesbry.com  Sat Sep 16 22:34:10 2000
From: mischief at lanesbry.com (Ralph Seberry)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 01:34:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:24:35AM -0500
References: <20000916185813.A2407@lanesbry.com> 
Message-ID: <20000917163106.B19826@lanesbry.com>

On Saturday, 16 Sep 2000 at 08:24, Jim Choate  wrote:
> 
> No, you have problems on your end, possibly two.
> 
> 1.	I sent the page attached
> 

procmail/mutt removed your junk, Jim. I thought you'd stopped
sending web pages to the list. You probably re-add the stupid
"CDR" to the subject every time you reply too...

> 2.	The page isn't cached, you can't copy correctly.

1. "|urlview" is hard to mistype.
2. I didn't copy the URL
3. If you use google, you'll notice it keeps cached copies of result pages.
4. I only mentioned it because, I really don't care Jim. I am willing
to concede the absurd. 1000 metre waterfalls. Whatever. You win.





From nobody at neuropa.net  Sat Sep 16 23:29:03 2000
From: nobody at neuropa.net (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:29:03 -0400
Subject: CDR: Carnivore 3.0: The Wrath of Olympus
Message-ID: <200009170628.e8H6SPj21943@berlin.neuropa.net>

By Robert X. Cringely

I wouldn't want to be a cop. It is a difficult and generally thankless job performed by people who are often unappreciated and certainly not overpaid. Most of us think of the police as the givers of undeserved though probably earned speeding and parking tickets. But when real troubles come, we expect the police to be there, to protect public safety. For their part, the law enforcement people I have known generally see themselves as a tribe a body of professionals who do a job the rest of us don't want to do and are, by the nature of that job, special. Ask a cop the last time he or she got a speeding ticket, then ask them whether they ever exceed the speed limit. Cops generally judge themselves by different rules than they judge the rest of us. 

When there is a pressing problem of public safety, we tend to expect the police to fix it, and we usually give them whatever tools they require to do the job. This explains why so many cities have Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams. It's not that every city faces problems that require SWAT response, but having a SWAT team is one way of keeping up with the other cities. It's cool. And if the perceived threat is bad enough and real enough, there is probably no limit, short of the U.S. Constitution, on the tools we will give our defenders. Bazookas, anyone? 

Now we jump, for the third and I hope last time, back into the Carnivore debate. You'll remember Carnivore is a sealed box that the FBI proposes to install in the Network Operations Centers of Internet Service Providers that are known to serve users who are criminal suspects and who are under a court-ordered e-mail tap. The way it was originally explained, Carnivore boxes would copy and store e-mail to and from the bad guy for decryption and examination by appropriate officials. ISPs don't like Carnivore because it is a box they don't control or have access to that can potentially screw-up the whole network. Privacy advocates don't like Carnivore because it might be intercepting and storing e-mails other than just those of the bad guys. They worry about the potential for abuse by law enforcement agencies. 

This is a thorny issue and shows how much technology has changed law enforcement. Part of the problem is that the Internet -- formerly a province of academic nerds -- is now a part of mainstream life, which is to say it has become a crime scene. Enter the police. When people use the Internet to deliver threats or commit crimes, the technology makes it conducive for law enforcement to deal with it. All that good spy technology used by the major intelligence agencies can be used to detect of crime on the Internet. 

I wonder whether the end of the Cold War may have accelerated this law enforcement trend as intelligence agencies try to stay in business by re-targeting their efforts on terrorism, the new bogeyman. 

The scary part about these intelligence-gathering technologies is that they are very scaleable. It isn't that much harder to read the mail of a thousand people than to read the mail of one person if a machine is doing the reading. And since the Carnivore boxes need to be directly in the flow of all e-mail at an ISP, this is doubly concerning. Now for the first of two disturbing facts: While the FBI has kept generally quiet about Carnivore, the government has maintained that it is intended for surgical use. One crook, one e-mail address. Is that why the name Carnivore was chosen? Because it is my understanding that the Carnivore program was begun under a different name, Omnivore. So much for surgical strikes. 

For the second disturbing fact we jump to the Olympics -- not this year's games in Sydney -- but the 2002 Winter games in Utah. Given the 1996 bombing at the Atlanta games and the 1972 hostage crisis in Munich, I really, really wouldn't want to be responsible for public safety at an Olympic games anywhere. So it isn't surprising that the security plans for Salt Lake in 2002 are very robust -- perhaps too robust for some people, including me. 

At the Utah games there will be a network of kiosks set up for athletes, journalists, and the public to use for e-mail and Net access. This will be the easiest way for many people to communicate in an area that will probably have its cellphone circuits maxed-out most of the time. Try making a cellphone call in Las Vegas during Comdex or the Consumer Electronics Show and you'll know what I mean. Well, the FBI has some rather specific requirements for Olympic data security, including the ability to not only COPY e-mail from these kiosks containing passwords from users' secret list, but to actually INTERCEPT e-mail and deliver it to a security office address rather than to the intended recipient. The person manning that address is supposed to make summary decisions about what to do with the reviewed email -- maybe it gets passed along as intended by its author, maybe bounced as "undeliverable" for myriad reasons, or... 

Seriously, that's a technical requirement, for which a vendor has not yet been chosen. The FBI gets to read mail, steal passwords, and divert mail. By the nature of the system, they have to look at all the mail -- even yours, if you are there. Remember, given the high-roller nature of Olympic audiences, the passwords being recorded to a database will likely include America's business elite. Of course those passwords would never be used for any illegal purpose, right? 

And the truly amazing part of this story is that there is nothing illegal about the data gathering, itself. Since the kiosk doesn't belong to you or me, we are bound by terms of usage that allow the kiosk provider to do pretty much whatever they want with the bits we run through their system. By simply using their machine, we give up our privacy without even knowing it. 

Okay, so maybe I have just blown the lid off a plan that could save lives, but it is hard for me to imagine a scenario in which some terrorist will stop on his way to plant a bomb to e-mail the boss about that bomb's location. This looks to me like overkill, and I don't like it. Or am I the only one who feels this way






From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 17 05:57:31 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 07:57:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
In-Reply-To: <20000917161501.A19826@lanesbry.com>
Message-ID: 


On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Ralph Seberry wrote:

> On Saturday, 16 Sep 2000 at 09:02, Harmon Seaver  wrote:
> >     That URL works fine for me -- don't know what your problem is.
> > 
> 
> works now, it was a transient error.
> 
> Nothing about "thousand feet" waterfalls that I could see, Jim.

Sigh, I should fucking charge you labor for this...

Then you have no clue how to search 'in document' or you're being
intentionaly obtuse.

1. If you go to google and use 'mediterranean gibralter waterfall' note
   very first item and note the comment about 'final waterfall'.

2. Get off your lazy butt and actualy execute a search on this document.
   You'll find commentary on,

   "Summary of Lecture - GY 308 (Southampton University)

    Read the course description carefully. Note terminology like
    'gigantic waterfall', comparison to Victoria and Niagra, etc.

You should really learn how to fish.

Signing off.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From holovacs at idt.net  Sun Sep 17 05:25:05 2000
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:25:05 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>
 <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000917082505.009e9650@pop3.idt.net>

Ok, you can reword are reiterate your claims. How about backing them up
with documentation? (if it's been 'reinforced' every year, it surely is not
secret and you must have some links to back up your claims)

BTW of your new ones:

1) Would you NOT have them available to all persons regardless of age? Do
we really need more teenage pregnancies? (BTW in that year many states
restricted access to birth control, my brother's then 17 year old wife
could not purchase it it Cal.)

2) why should people be prohibited from participation in child care because
they are gay, bisexual or lesbian? Perhaps heterosexuals should be
prohibited from child care for the same reasons.

3) Document (not rephrase) this, Jodi

4) Well this country is kind of short on enemies right now since the
disappearance of the evil empire... maybe it's time to attack a real enemy.


This is, of course similar to the last times, wild claims (probably from
some fundie tract) and lots of bluster and no content when challenged to
support the claims.

Jay

Aside to Lizard: I'll be gone for a few days but watching my mail when I
get back, try to follow up and make sure we get some documentation. thx


At 11:46 AM 9/16/2000 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>In 1972 (the year before the APA unilaterally decided 
>homosexuality was "no longer an illness") the Gay Rights Platform was 
>drawn up at the convention of the National Coalition of Gay Organizers. 
> It was officially set forth at the Gay Pride March on Washington, D.C. 
>on April 25, 1993 and has been reinforced every year since.  
>
>	By the way, a couple more of the demands:
>
>	1)	Demand that contraceptives and abortion services be made 
>		available to all persons, regardless of age (what the 
>		hell does that matter to homosexuals???);
>
>	2)	Full inclusion of lesbians, homosexual men, bisexuals 	
>		and transgenders in education of children and child 	
>		care;
>
>	3)	 Legalization of all forms of sexual expression, 
>		including pedophilia, changing age of consent laws to 
>		allow sex with children;
>
>	4)	demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to 
>		cover AIDS patients' medical expenses...  
>
>	The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS 
>funding.  That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which 
>is more funding than all forms of cancer combined.  Current Federal 
>Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per  death:
>
>	AIDS/HIV:	$39,172.00
>	Diabetes:	$ 5,449.00
>	Cancer:		$ 3,776.00
>	Heart Disease:	$ 1,056.00
>	Stroke:		$   765.00
>
>	What's wrong with this picture?	You don't get cancer by engaging 
>in promiscuous sex.  Funding should not be based on sexual behaviors.
>
>
>Jay Holovacs wrote:
>
>




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 17 09:54:22 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:54:22 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
	 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
	 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
	 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
	 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
	 <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>
	 <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net> <3.0.1.32.20000917082505.009e9650@pop3.idt.net>
Message-ID: <39C4F73E.46AB@attglobal.net>

Jay:

	I've given information which is readily available to anyone who 
takes the time to investigate it.  I've done my homowork (oops...).  
Now, you do yours and stop being so lazy.  After all, I have been led to 
believe this loop is replete with journalists.  I get paid to 
investigate truths.  Don't you?  The truth shall set even you free.

Jay Holovacs wrote:
> 
> Ok, you can reword are reiterate your claims. How about backing them up
> with documentation? (if it's been 'reinforced' every year, it surely is not
> secret and you must have some links to back up your claims)
> 
> BTW of your new ones:
> 
> 1) Would you NOT have them available to all persons regardless of age? Do
> we really need more teenage pregnancies? (BTW in that year many states
> restricted access to birth control, my brother's then 17 year old wife
> could not purchase it it Cal.)
> 
> 2) why should people be prohibited from participation in child care because
> they are gay, bisexual or lesbian? Perhaps heterosexuals should be
> prohibited from child care for the same reasons.
> 
> 3) Document (not rephrase) this, Jodi
> 
> 4) Well this country is kind of short on enemies right now since the
> disappearance of the evil empire... maybe it's time to attack a real enemy.
> 
> This is, of course similar to the last times, wild claims (probably from
> some fundie tract) and lots of bluster and no content when challenged to
> support the claims.
> 
> Jay
> 
> Aside to Lizard: I'll be gone for a few days but watching my mail when I
> get back, try to follow up and make sure we get some documentation. thx
> 
> At 11:46 AM 9/16/2000 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> >In 1972 (the year before the APA unilaterally decided
> >homosexuality was "no longer an illness") the Gay Rights Platform was
> >drawn up at the convention of the National Coalition of Gay Organizers.
> > It was officially set forth at the Gay Pride March on Washington, D.C.
> >on April 25, 1993 and has been reinforced every year since.
> >
> >       By the way, a couple more of the demands:
> >
> >       1)      Demand that contraceptives and abortion services be made
> >               available to all persons, regardless of age (what the
> >               hell does that matter to homosexuals???);
> >
> >       2)      Full inclusion of lesbians, homosexual men, bisexuals
> >               and transgenders in education of children and child
> >               care;
> >
> >       3)       Legalization of all forms of sexual expression,
> >               including pedophilia, changing age of consent laws to
> >               allow sex with children;
> >
> >       4)      demand that Federal Defense budget funds be diverted to
> >               cover AIDS patients' medical expenses...
> >
> >       The 1998 Federal Budget included $4.746 *BILLION* for AIDS
> >funding.  That was a $465 million increase over the 1997 Budget, which
> >is more funding than all forms of cancer combined.  Current Federal
> >Money (your tax dollars and mine) spent per  death:
> >
> >       AIDS/HIV:       $39,172.00
> >       Diabetes:       $ 5,449.00
> >       Cancer:         $ 3,776.00
> >       Heart Disease:  $ 1,056.00
> >       Stroke:         $   765.00
> >
> >       What's wrong with this picture? You don't get cancer by engaging
> >in promiscuous sex.  Funding should not be based on sexual behaviors.
> >
> >
> >Jay Holovacs wrote:
> >
> >

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From rguerra at yahoo.com  Sun Sep 17 11:45:22 2000
From: rguerra at yahoo.com (rguerra at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:45:22 -0400
Subject: CDR: gpg for palmOS ?
Message-ID: <20000917223832.CWUV19855.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@[216.209.74.136]>


I would like to know if anyone is working on a port of GPG for the PalmOS ?

I have tried the 2 pgp ports for the palm, however they are not stable
-- 
"...as we transfer our whole being to the data bank, privacy will become a ghost or echo of its former self and what remains of community will disappear"...Marshal McLuhan
--
Robert Guerra , Fax: +1(303) 484-0302 
WWW Page , ICQ # 10266626
PGPKeys  




From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Sun Sep 17 11:45:53 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:45:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: is there any way ?
In-Reply-To: "dark horse horse"'s message of "Sat, 16 Sep 2000 04:52:17 -0400"
References: 
Message-ID: <84k8cb3bwi.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

"dark horse horse"  writes:

> hello :)
> 
> is there any way to9 tell anyone crack into a spacial
> webpage or email ?

I don't have any 29's, but the subject of "cracking" into other
spatial dimensions is a rather hot topic in some physics circles right
now. The general idea is that spacetime isn't just the four dimensions
which we can see, but rather a much larger number of dimensions. The
exact number varies from theory to theory. Implications are obvious
for everything from time travel to faster-than-light stardrives.
A quick websearch should turn up something.

Oh, you mean a spatial webpage or email. I'm afraid I know nothing of
that.





From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Sun Sep 17 12:12:03 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:12:03 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: is there any way ?
In-Reply-To: "Dark Horse"'s message of "Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:42:28 -0700"
References: 
Message-ID: <843diz37pa.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

"Dark Horse"  writes:

> hello :)
> 
> well I thought I will have no answer as I had no answer writing to some
> cracker's email

They've developed language skills? Man, I should have gone into food
research. I don't think I could handle the bread products
communicating with me, though.

> 
> but NOW I know there is one to answer me :)
> now I can ask my question clearer .. I was just wondering are there any
> special cracker in internet

I don't know how special they are, but you can find some at
http://www.ritzbits.com.

> that I can write to them and ask them to crack a website for me ... 

Actually, Nabisco doesn't crack websites. They just make crackers and
other food products. You might be more interested in some Ginko
Biloba...or a lobotomy; those might help you. If not, ask your doctor
about Ativan.

> for
> example : www.sanjesh.org ??

I'm not planning to go to Tehran, Iran any time soon. However, any
hardware store would be glad to sell you a sledge hammer which you may
use to crack it once you get there. For the transportation, you might
want to try http://www.priceline.com. I hear that you can name your
own price for airline tickets, gasoline, hotel rooms, and groceries
there now. 

> or find me an email password like : atasharif at yahoo.com ..

That looks more like an email address to me, but I confess that I
don't quite know what those two trailing periods are for.

> I will be so glad to have your answer as soon as the one before ;)
> 
> make a splash !

You too can make a splash. Just send $29.95 to Cypherpunks, Inc. for
your very own, easy to use cement. Just eat, drink a few glasses of
water, and you too will be able to make your own splash the very next
time you go to the bathroom. (Most common side effects included
intestinal perforation, intestinal obstruction, rectal hemorrage,
vomiting, and dehydration. Talk to your doctor before beginning to use
Cypherpunks, Inc. Cement Shitbrick Mix.)







From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Sep 17 12:25:36 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:25:36 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party - Sept. 21
In-Reply-To: 

At 03:01 PM 9/15/00 -0400, Fisher Mark wrote:
>> The fact that _all_ of the so-called music entertainers at the SF 
>> event are "trancers" is...symptomatic...of something.
>
>It's symptomatic of the age gap on the list -- you, me, RAH (now there's a
>combination) and others are *way* beyond the 20-something party crowd.  Even
>if I lived in the area, there'd be lots of stuff I'd rather do than go to
>the party.  I hope they have lots of (age-appropriate) fun, though.  A new
>(minor) era dawning and all that...

Oh, come on - back when we were that age, instead of old geezers,
we did our share of staying up late at night dancing and consuming
various mind-altering substances*.   These kids are staying up a 
bit later, and some of their drugs hadn't been invented in our day,
and their music is no worse than some of the garage rock bands...

And while they're not walking 20 miles through the snow to school
like we did, it's San Francisco, so they're still walking 20 blocks
uphill both ways to the nearest parking space.


[* Mostly ethanol and caffeine.  I was fortunate enough to be in the
drink-age-18 days, but they hadn't invented decent mass-market coffee
yet...]
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Sun Sep 17 05:44:31 2000
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:44:31 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
>Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
>referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
>boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
>intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?

It does seem that you have grave trouble differentiating between words and
actions...

Besides, there is a point in questioning the tacit assumption behind all
this kiddy-porn outrage of children/adolescents not being able to concent to
sex. I'm not entirely sure that sort of *debate* should be silenced, while
at the moment just about everybody, me included, would agree with you on
actually acting out the thing.

Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Sun Sep 17 15:16:53 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 18:16:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu> <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net> <3.0.1.32.20000917082505.009e9650@pop3.idt.net> <39C4F73E.46AB@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c020f4$fc71cf40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>


> Jay:
> 
> I've given information which is readily available to anyone who 
> takes the time to investigate it.  

But you have failled to provide information which should be
readily available to you if you are telling the truth.

You are the person who is making the claim, the onus is on
you to provide the evidence to support it.

The fact that the few details you have provided turned out to 
be untrue hardly lends credibility to your argument.


        Phill




From cme at acm.org  Sun Sep 17 19:16:23 2000
From: cme at acm.org (Carl Ellison)
Date: 17 Sep 2000 19:16:23 -0700
Subject: Identity theft (PGN, RISKS-21.04)
Message-ID: 

I used to try to keep my SSN private -- then I realized that that's blaming
the victim (me).  It's not the SSN holder's fault that stores and other
institutions use improper means for authenticating people.  It's the store's
fault.

Any information held by a credit bureau is public.  So is any information
held by any government agency, if I'm to believe the spam I get
occasionally.

So, that information is not acceptable for authentication -- even in person,
but especially online.  It's not merely unacceptable when dealing with the
credit bureau.  The credit bureau poisons the information for everyone.

Now -- how do we get consumer protection laws that make it clear that a
consumer is not liable for any debts incurred by someone claiming to be
him/her unless there is irrefutable authentication during registration
(e.g., videotape of the consumer signing up for the service).  This means
killing all issuing of credit online, by mail, by phone, etc.

Maybe I'd stop getting all those credit-card applications in the mail....

[This opens a technical challenge: how can we authenticate anyone, if we
rule
out information that an attacker can get?]

 - Carl

---
All inventions or works of authorship original to me,
herein and past, are placed irrevocably in the public
domain, and may be used or modified for any purpose,
without permission, attribution, or notification.








From billp at nmol.com  Sun Sep 17 20:03:50 2000
From: billp at nmol.com (billp at nmol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:03:50 -0600
Subject: CDR: jerry boutelle and real brains
Message-ID: <39C58616.C34A8D94@nmol.com>

cypherpunks

I was thinking about you when I put this on the net

/http://www.nmol.com/users/billp/purpose.htm#Newton

Boutelle never got a college degree.

I've known lot of phds, including garett birkhoff and don knuth. And ray
duncan too. An md not phd.

Boutelle was a LOT SMARTER, in my opinion, than all of the above.

Boutelle left us a legacy of  genius with the Nautilus 2 metacompiler.

Boutelle is dead.

I missed his wake at Half Moon Bay because of this mess.

http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/

I'm getting a bit upset.

Allahu ahkbar

http://www.jya.com/nsasuit.txt
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/buehlerpayne.html





From commerce at home.com  Sun Sep 17 19:13:56 2000
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:13:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com><3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com><39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394><39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394><39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu><3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net><39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net><001701c01ffa$cc16b860$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net> 
Message-ID: <024701c02116$1fe1c220$0100a8c0@matthew>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kevin Elliott" 
> than the rest of NATO combined.  HEll, ignoring 
> turkey we have more territory than the rest of NATO 
> combined!

Did the U.S. senate finally ratify the Canada Annexation Treaty?







From tkadplacement at themail.com  Sun Sep 17 22:17:12 2000
From: tkadplacement at themail.com (Legit Work)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:17:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: RE:Your classified ad!---IMPORTANT!!
Message-ID: <419.436787.01131748tkadplacement@themail.com>

I saw your ad in the business classifieds and i had to tell you that you could be getting 
paid for 
doing just that--placing ads!!
Read on to find out how to get paid for something you are doing allready.

THE AD PLACEMENT PROGRAM

Work at Home Simply Placing our Classified Advertisements! No Catches! 
That's right! Simply place our Advertising & get Paid! Did you know that classified 
advertising is 
part of a:

Six Billion Dollar Market

We are sure that you will agree this is a big enough market to get YOUR piece out of 
it! Read on 
to tap into the Easiest & Most Profitable Business on the 'Net!

You are about to discover how to acquire the most simple, easy and powerful money-
making 
opportunity. It is called The Ad Placement Program and it's a dynamic income 
generating system 
that allows you to make profits providing a valuable service on or off of the Internet.

Who are we? 

We are CJ Holdings, a direct response Marketing Company. We are hired by various 
companies 
both on and off of the Internet to design & implement Ad Campaigns for them. A very 
large part of 
any Ad Campaign is Classified Advertising. Open ANY Newspaper, Magazine, or 
Internet classified 
site and you will see the multitude of Ads placed.

What if we could show YOU how to earn a good income from home by simply placing 
Ads for our 
clients? One week you may place Ads for FREE Software, Widgets or a Work-at-
home 
opportunity, the next week it could be long distance services, satellite dishes or even 
a 
discounted vacation offer! You choose the Ads that you want to place and get paid 
PER REPLY 
to these ads! No one even has to buy ANYTHING from the Ad - just respond!

Ad Placement provides a great service to our clients. By them not having to place 
Ads 
themselves, this allows them to concentrate on the sales end of their business. ALL 
responses to 
any advertising go directly to CJ Holdings. You NEVER have to handle ANY 
mail,correspondence, 
or otherwise. CJ Holdings maintains the "contracts" with these firms and then forwards 
the Ads to 
place for that given week. You simply place them. That's It! 

 THIS IS NOT ENVELOPE STUFFING!
You may have seen ads or websites offering to pay you for envelope stuffing. The 
ads generally 
are worded something like this:

Work At Home paid $5 Per Envelope Stuffed! Homeworkers needed NOW due to 
expansion 
Supplies provided, envelopes are prestamped, etc. etc.

- A typical 'Envelope Stuffing' advertisement

What their Ad does not tell you is that you will be required to run the identical ad, 
request that they 
mail YOU $5 for information and the YOU have to mail them the sales letter recruiting 
them to do 
the same thing. There! You have just stuffed an envelope!

This is NOT what Ad Placement is. Once signed up as an Ad Placer with us you 
simply place the 
classified advertisements on or off of the Internet! Your Choice! We provide you with 
the wording 
for the Ads that you conveniently 'copy' and 'paste' to the more than 100 FREE Ad 
Sites that we 
provide to you for NO CHARGE over the Internet.

REMEMBER: 

You do NO SELLING OF THESE COMPANIES PRODUCTS. You never have to 
contact a 
customer, you receive NO Email from these companies or the leads that we provide 
them. In 
return, they receive, from us, qualified leads for their sales department.

For this service that you and the many other professional Ad Placers provide, placing 
Ads, you are 
paid $1.00 US from EACH response to your Ads. Doesn't sound too exciting, does it? 
Some Ad 
Placers recieve an average of 150 replies to their Ads a week just on FREE sites 
alone! Some 
more and some less. In addition to this let's say that you also ran a print Ad campaign 
that same 
week and this averages you an additional 450 responses, that would yield you an 
income of 
$600.00 US a week! But wait, it does get better!

If you can spend 2-4 hours a day running Ads you will see that this is the easiest 
money that you 
have ever made! You are provided with COMPLETE Training & Support! Why are we 
sharing this 
with you?

Due to the growth and of Internet businesses alone always looking for new ways to 
generate 
leads, CJ Holdings is forced to expand.

This, my fellow entrepreneur, is where YOU come in!

As we do need more Professional Ad Placers as our business grows, we will also 
pay YOU an 
additional .50 cents for any replies from your group's Ads as well! This means that you 
are paid $1 
per response from your own Ads PLUS .50 cents for any replies to Ads placed from 
those that you 
recruit to work from home for us!

With the example of 150 replies from FREE Ads in a week & 450 replies from print Ads 
you have 
already earned $600.00, what if you also had 10 Ad Placers working under you doing 
the same? 
That will skyrocket your income to $3,600.00! That is in only 1 week! 

Let's say that you only have 5 Ad Placers that you have recruited. You still have a 
weekly income 
of: $1,200.00! That is $4,800.00 a month! Do not be fooled, this is NOT a get-rich-quick 
scheme. 
You will have to work, you will have to place Ads for our clients and if you choose to 
have your 
own Ad Placement Group then you will have to manage and support your group as 
well. Is it worth 
it?
I think you will agree that it IS worth it!
If you would like more info on this great money making opportunity,

Simply reply to this message with "Ad placing" in the subject

Thank you 
Tony Kloschinsky
========================================================================
==
*note*you are not on any list,i saw your ad in the free classifieds and wanted to let you 
in on 
something big-thats all,Thank You




From foryou2day at themail.com  Sun Sep 17 22:37:34 2000
From: foryou2day at themail.com (Legit Work)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Hello,Interesting ad-please read
Message-ID: <419.436787.02540868foryou2day@themail.com>

Hello,
I saw your ad in the buisness opps. section and thought i would tell you about
something exciting and new that will increase your advertising exposure 10 fold.
I have found an interesting booklet that explains to you how to target the 
newcomers to the internet marketing world,sound crazy,Hundreds of 
thousands of newcomers come online every month hungry to succeed in internet 
marketing.
Its interesting to know where all these newcomers "hang out"

This booklet is FREE and will show you how to send information to newcomers 
who are eager for help and prosperous buisness opportunities.

This is no joke,people making thousands a month are using this formula and it does 
work.
How hard do you think it would be to sell to someone new to the biz and hungry 
for help--they will welcome what you have to say/offer with open arms.

If you would like to download a free copy of this book just reply with 
"free booklet"in the subject field.

This is a major breakthrough in targeted internet advertising!!!

Please dont pass up this free offer ,it will dramatically change the way you do 
business every day.

Thank you
The success team



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
*note*Im replying to your ad that i read in the classified ads,You are not on any list and 
you wont 
recieve any future mailings unless you request the free booklet.
****************************************************************************************************
***************




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 17 21:20:27 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:20:27 -0500
Subject: CDR: That waterfall may have been 3000ft...
Message-ID: <39C5980B.10DCACB2@ssz.com>

http://www.andalucia.com/water_sports/dolphins.htm

-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Sun Sep 17 21:37:08 2000
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:37:08 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <024701c02116$1fe1c220$0100a8c0@matthew>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com><3.0.5.32.20000913064702.0392
 9e70@mrlizard.com><39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394><39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394><39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu><3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500
 @pop3.idt.net><39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net><001701c01ffa$cc16b860$0701000a
 @ne.mediaone.net> 
 <024701c02116$1fe1c220$0100a8c0@matthew>
Message-ID: 

At 22:13 -0400 9/17/00, Me wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kevin Elliott" 
>>  than the rest of NATO combined.  HEll, ignoring
>>  turkey we have more territory than the rest of NATO
>>  combined!
>
>Did the U.S. senate finally ratify the Canada Annexation Treaty?

My apologies.  Ignoring the great northern state, the above holds true.
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From levitte at openssl.org  Sun Sep 17 14:51:55 2000
From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 23:51:55 +0200
Subject: ANNOUNCE: OpenSSL 0.9.6 Beta 2
Message-ID: <20000917235155.C21442@openssl.org>


  OpenSSL version 0.9.6 Beta 2
  ============================

  OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS
  http://www.openssl.org/

  OpenSSL is currently in a release cycle.  The second beta is now released.
  This beta is in fact two releases, one for the current mainstream
  OpenSSL, and one with an "engine" branch incorporated.  The "engine"
  branch contains an interface to external crypto libraries, which is
  currently used to support the hardware devices CryptoSwift (by CryptoSwift
  Inc), Atalla (by Compaq) and CHIL (previously called HWCryptoHook, by
  nCipher) as well as the internal OpenSSL routines.

  The two beta releases are available for download via HTTP and FTP from the
  following master locations (the various FTP mirrors you can find under
  http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html):

    o http://www.openssl.org/source/
    o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/

  The file names of the two betas are:

    o openssl-0.9.6-beta2.tar.gz
    o openssl-engine-0.9.6-beta2.tar.gz

  Please download and test them as soon as possible.  This new OpenSSL
  version incorporates 84 changes and bugfixes to the toolkit (for a
  complete list see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES).

  Changes that have been made since last beta are a lot in the
  documentation, in Win32-specific code and in VMS-specific code,
  and there has also been small changes that may affect everyone
  (for the better).  Tests on Win32 and VMS need to be made very
  soon.  Tests on other platforms should be made very soon as well,
  to verify that we haven't messed up since last beta.

  Also, new (non-default) targets for HP-UX have been added.  Since
  they are non-default, they won't get chosen implicitely, so they
  are non-critical in nature, but it would be nice if they got tested
  as well, for future reference.

  Reports and patches should be sent to openssl-bugs at openssl.org.
  Discussions around the development of OpenSSL should be sent to
  openssl-dev at openssl.org.  Anything else should go to
  openssl-users at openssl.org.

  Yours,
  The OpenSSL Project Team...  

    Mark J. Cox             Richard Levitte    Andy Polyakov
    Ralf S. Engelschall     Bodo Möller        Holger Reif
    Dr. Stephen Henson      Ulf Möller         Geoff Thorpe
    Ben Laurie              

--
Richard Levitte         levitte at openssl.org
OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/
Software Engineer, Celo Communications: http://www.celocom.com/




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Sep 18 00:00:09 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:00:09 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <001701c01e54$ca887300$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
 <001701c01e54$ca887300$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: 

>Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to
>Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing
>the local Nazi encampment.


>
>What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs
>off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon
>is a reasonable or even a sensible response.

	Generally speaking, a militant organization, be it the Marine 
Corps or the Aryan Nation does not put it's best and brightest on 
security details. They realize that yes, sometimes you *do* need to 
have that bunker charged, or that hill taken, and you need people who 
are bright enough to do that, and dumb enough not to think about it.

	In some cases putting yourself in front of the bullet, or 
charging the machine gun nest *is* the best thing to do for your 
cause.


	I'm not saying that only stupid people join these kinds of 
groups, but that of the people who join these groups, the stupid ones 
will wind up in the "bullet stopper" positions.

>>  > In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those
>>  > who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an
>>  > example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability"
>>  > doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty
>>  > Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like.
>
>The problem with the KKK, AN and other groups of thugs isn't
>what they say, it is what they do - beat people up.
>
>As for being PC, can anyone explain how an organization could
>be less tollerant of opposing views than the AN?

	The AN doesn't have the majority of the mainstream media 
hanging on it's every word, like the Democrats (and to a lesser 
extent the Republicans) do. They don't pretend to be fair and honest, 
and then bleed you to death with a thousand little cuts 
(metaphorically speaking). They are pretty much nasty creatures, but 
in a way honest. If they don't like you, they make it very plain they 
don't like you.

	The AN is no more and no less intolerant than most other 
political parties. The scope of what they tolerate is smaller, but 
they are no more vicious and nasty to those outside their lines than 
most other groups.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From 5travel at ebay.com  Sun Sep 17 22:46:26 2000
From: 5travel at ebay.com (5travel at ebay.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:46:26 -0500
Subject: CDR: DISNEY DAYTONA Adventure Getaway
Message-ID: <000046ae35c5$00007746$00005928@>

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From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Sun Sep 17 21:49:41 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:49:41 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu> <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net> <3.0.1.32.20000917082505.009e9650@pop3.idt.net> <39C4F73E.46AB@attglobal.net> <001f01c020f4$fc71cf40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <39C59EE5.1B6B@attglobal.net>

Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> > Jay:
> >
> > I've given information which is readily available to anyone who
> > takes the time to investigate it.
> 
> But you have failled to provide information which should be
> readily available to you if you are telling the truth.
> 
> You are the person who is making the claim, the onus is on
> you to provide the evidence to support it.
> 
> The fact that the few details you have provided turned out to
> be untrue hardly lends credibility to your argument.
> 
>         Phill

	In that case, I'll make you an offer.  You or anyone else on 
this list are welcome to read through our modest collection of over 
2,000 books, three four-foot tall file cabinets (all full), various 
shelves, etc...just like we did.  
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Sun Sep 17 22:10:27 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 01:10:27 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Sep 2000 00:49:41 EDT."
             <39C59EE5.1B6B@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <200009180510.BAA02310@snorklewacker.mit.edu>

> Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > 
> > > Jay:
> > >
> > > I've given information which is readily available to anyone who
> > > takes the time to investigate it.
> > 
> > But you have failled to provide information which should be
> > readily available to you if you are telling the truth.
> > 
> > You are the person who is making the claim, the onus is on
> > you to provide the evidence to support it.
> > 
> > The fact that the few details you have provided turned out to
> > be untrue hardly lends credibility to your argument.
> > 
> >         Phill
> 
> 	In that case, I'll make you an offer.  You or anyone else on 
> this list are welcome to read through our modest collection of over 
> 2,000 books, three four-foot tall file cabinets (all full), various 
> shelves, etc...just like we did.  

Very good.

Now, let's have cites.

The proper format is

Author, title, date, page numbers, publishing house.

ISBN numbers would be nice, too.







From commerce at home.com  Sun Sep 17 23:14:09 2000
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 02:14:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: 
Message-ID: <004b01c02137$a91be770$0100a8c0@matthew>

----- Original Message -----
From: "!Dr. Joe Baptista" 
> If I were to tell you that I had personal knowledge
> of the rape by canadian politicians and senior
> bureacrats of young boys from fort lauderdale during
> the 60, 70, 80's - and that these rapes and further
> investigation of those who abuse these
> children is being intentionally suppressed by senior
> police officers and law officers in Canada - how
> would you react to this?


My Deity!  This from Joe Baptista?  It must be a forged message.

Next we will hear that Joe takes lunch with Julian Fantino.

Perhaps the Doctor has been granted an opportunity to pay off
some debts by working for Project Guardian.





From lizard at mrlizard.com  Mon Sep 18 06:57:52 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 06:57:52 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <001501c02177$7a3fcbc0$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
 <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu>
 <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net>
 <3.0.1.32.20000917082505.009e9650@pop3.idt.net>
 <39C4F73E.46AB@attglobal.net>
 <001f01c020f4$fc71cf40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
 <39C59EE5.1B6B@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000918065752.039bf100@mrlizard.com>

At 09:50 AM 9/18/00 -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>Jodi evaded:
>> In that case, I'll make you an offer.  You or anyone else on 
>> this list are welcome to read through our modest collection of over 
>> 2,000 books, three four-foot tall file cabinets (all full), various 
>> shelves, etc...just like we did.  
>
>If we are playing that game, I have 5000+ volumes here. All 5000 of them
>AND my gorilla say that you are full of it.
>
That's "Orangutang".




From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Sep 18 06:21:42 2000
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:21:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: New Internet Privacy Services
Message-ID: <200009181321.JAA29296@www0.aa.psiweb.com>

ZKS and Anonymizer have the wrong business model in terms
of what consumers want. They're too techie. What people
(as opposed to cypherpunks ;-) want is privacy AND the
ability to make purchases without spreading their CC#
all over.

This is the hottest area of privacy services, and
competition is starting to heat up, with more and
more firms deciding to provide such services.

Card issuers would seem to have an advantage here.

An early "release" (can you say 'vaporware') is
being promoted in TV commercials by American Express.

The commercial shows the narrator/consumer talking
about wanting Internet privacy, while his face is
obscured the entire commercial. The ending has him
claiming complete Internet privacy, including for
purchases, and shows a symbolic AmEx card with the name X'd out.
("I'm finally getting the recognition I deserve.")

AmEx signed an agreement on 9/7/2000 with Privada to
provide the proxying Internet access, and AmEx says
it will roll out Privacy Payments within the next month.

Privada notes at http://www.privada.net/news/index.html

Enclosed are two URLs-Info, some corporate speak deleted.

Note that the "click here's" ask you for your email address
so you can be notified when it's available.

----


http://www10.americanexpress.com/sif/cda/page/0,1641,4534,00.asp

    American Express Privacy Products
    -------- ------- ------- --------

    Introducing a suite of exciting online privacy
    initiatives from American Express.

American Express has always helped our Cardmembers enjoy the recognition 
they deserve. But there are places where you may want to reveal less 
about yourself, such as the Internet. American Express has a long 
history of protecting consumer privacy, and we're committed to 
continuing this tradition online.

That's why we're introducing a range of new products and services to 
provide additional security for our customers when they are shopping 
or browsing on the Internet. The first product, Private PaymentsSM 
will be available soon, followed by Private Browsing later this year 
and additional offerings in 2001.


    Private Payments - An Innovative Online Payment Solution
    ------- --------   -- ---------- ------ ------- --------

Be one of the first to try Private Payments. Click here.

Private Payments is an industry breakthrough for secure purchasing 
online. This new way to pay creates a random, unique number for each 
online purchase. Customers never transmit their actual card number 
over the Internet, thus ensuring their Card?s security. This service 
is free to U.S. American Express Consumer Cardmembers and Small Business 
Cardmembers. It is not available to corporate Cardmembers at this time.


    Private Browsing - Browse Anonymously Online - Coming Soon
    ------- --------   ------ ----------- ------   ------ ----

Be one of the first to try Private Browsing. Click here.

American Express has recently partnered with Privada Inc. a leading 
digital privacy infrastructure provider, to create Private Browsing. 
This exciting software product will enable American Express Cardmembers 
to choose how much information is shared about them when they browse 
the Web-from their full identity to anonymity. It will be available 
later this year.


----

http://home3.americanexpress.com/corp//latestnews/payments.asp

First Product in Series Provides Innovative Way to Pay Online: Unique, 
Random Number Safeguards Customers and Helps Reduce Fraud


NEW YORK, September 7, 2000 -- Addressing consumer concerns about online 
privacy and security, American Express Company today announced a new 
series of products that provides customers with greater choice and 
protection when browsing and shopping online. The first product, known 
as Private PaymentsSM, is an industry breakthrough that offers a more 
secure way to pay online using a random, unique number for each online 
purchase. Private Payments enables customers to purchase online without 
transmitting their actual card account numbers over the Internet. 
Private Payments will be available free within the next month to 
American Express consumer and small business cardmembers in the United 
States.

The company has also signed an agreement with and made a minority 
investment in Privada Inc., a digital privacy infrastructure provider, 
to deliver a second product that will enable customers to choose how 
much of their information is shared when they browse any site on the 
Web. This private browsing product will allow customers to select from 
settings that range from sharing their full identity to anonymity. 
This service will be introduced later this year. Additional offerings 
in the new suite of American Express products will be announced next 
year.

"While the Internet has dramatically eased the way consumers research 
and purchase products, it also has increased concern for protecting 
privacy and security," said Alfred F. Kelly, Jr., group president of 
U.S. Consumer and Small Business Services at American Express.

How Private Payments Works

Using Private Payments to shop online is quick and easy. Interested 
cardmembers can register for the free service here. When cardmembers 
are ready to purchase online, they can access the service by going 
to the Private Payments home page at americanexpress.com or by clicking 
on the Private Payments icon on their desktop. This launches the 
service, which then prompts them for username and password, and to 
select the American Express. Card they want linked to the Private 
Payments number. A unique Private Payments number with expiration date 
is then randomly created by American Express. The cardmember transfers 
this information into the merchant order form to complete the purchase. 
The cardmember's actual card account number is not sent over the 
Internet, thus keeping this information secure. The item purchased 
is charged to the cardmember's selected American Express Card and 
appears on the monthly billing statement, as usual.

Further safeguarding the online purchase, the Private Payments number 
is designed to be used for a single purchase and to expire after the 
merchant authorization process is completed. Upon expiration, the 
Private Payments number cannot be used again if stolen.




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Mon Sep 18 06:50:55 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:50:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu> <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net> <3.0.1.32.20000917082505.009e9650@pop3.idt.net> <39C4F73E.46AB@attglobal.net> <001f01c020f4$fc71cf40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net> <39C59EE5.1B6B@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <001501c02177$7a3fcbc0$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>


Jodi evaded:
> In that case, I'll make you an offer.  You or anyone else on 
> this list are welcome to read through our modest collection of over 
> 2,000 books, three four-foot tall file cabinets (all full), various 
> shelves, etc...just like we did.  

If we are playing that game, I have 5000+ volumes here. All 5000 of them
AND my gorilla say that you are full of it.

If you have the evidence post it. Explaining how easy it would be for
you to post it does nothing for your credibility. Give us a citation
that we can look up.

        Phill






From abadee2001 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 18 10:25:07 2000
From: abadee2001 at yahoo.com (Bob Jones)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Amex supports CARNIVORE enabled Anonymity System, 
Message-ID: <20000918172507.54443.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com>

>ZKS and Anonymizer have the wrong business model in
>terms
>of what consumers want. They're too techie. What
>people
>(as opposed to cypherpunks ;-) want is privacy AND
the
>ability to make purchases without spreading their CC#
>all over.
>
>This is the hottest area of privacy services, and
>competition is starting to heat up, with more and
>more firms deciding to provide such services.
>
>Card issuers would seem to have an advantage here.
>
>An early "release" (can you say 'vaporware') is
>being promoted in TV commercials by American Express.
>
>The commercial shows the narrator/consumer talking
>about wanting Internet privacy, while his face is
>obscured the entire commercial. The ending has him
>claiming complete Internet privacy, including for
>purchases, and shows a symbolic AmEx card with the
>name X'd out.
>("I'm finally getting the recognition I deserve.")
>
>AmEx signed an agreement on 9/7/2000 with Privada to
>provide the proxying Internet access, and AmEx says
>it will roll out Privacy Payments within the next
>month.
>
>Privada notes at
>http://www.privada.net/news/index.html


What a load of shit.   If you check that URL the next
thing you see the following release

-----------------------------
http://www.privada.net/news/releases/20000717.html

Privada's Technology Protects Users' Privacy, Only
Monitors Those Who Abuse It
Technology solves the problem of responsible privacy 
SAN JOSE, Calif. � July 17, 2000 � In the wake of the
FBI's recent Carnivore system unveiling, the question
of responsible privacy has reached a critical head.
While the government struggles to balance security and
privacy, and technology continues to evolve, consumers
are confronted with a scenario where through no fault
of their own, they may have the government snooping
through their email. 

When Carnivore is placed with an Internet service
provider, it scans all incoming and outgoing emails
for messages associated with the target of a criminal
probe. Further, while the system is plugged into the
ISP's network, it is controlled solely by the law
enforcement agency. In a traditional wiretap, the tap
is physically placed and maintained by the telephone
company. With Carnivore, the privacy of all an ISP's
customers is at risk, with no involvement or control
by the ISP. 

Enter Privada
Through a patent pending privacy management
infrastructure, Privada delivers a much-needed
balanced and societally appropriate solution. Built
into that infrastructure is a component called the
Monitor that only monitors those who have abused their
right to privacy, giving ISPs a tool for complying
with law enforcement subpoenas without infringing upon
the privacy of all users. 

------------
And yet another

---------------------

Privacy Expert Says Democracy Demands "Responsible"
Privacy Protections
Glee Harrah Cady of Privada, Inc. Says Innovative
Technology That Empowers Consumers Is Better Than
Regulation In Solving Privacy Concerns 
WASHINGTON, D.C. � September 14, 2000 � An executive
from one of America's leading privacy technology
companies warned those attending a summit here that
efforts to create a one-size-fits-all law protecting
privacy will never be as effective as the solutions
offered by ongoing technological innovation. 

"Privacy is fundamental to any democracy," said Glee
Harrah Cady, Vice President of Global Public Policy
for the San Jose-based Privada, Inc. "People must be
able to fully express their opinions and thoughts
without fear. Anonymity can be important to the
democratic process, but it also can be abused." 

Cady pointed to recent incidents of hacking and the
spread of computer viruses as circumstances in which
anonymity does not serve the public good. "Privacy is
a right until you misuse it," she told participants at
the Global Privacy Summit. 

-----------------------------------

Obviously AMEX & Privada don't have a clue as to the
history of privacy and privacy tools...

What about civil john doe complaints?
What about Church of $cientology and Penet.fi?
What about the entire key escrow debate?
What about the entire clipper debate?

If anyone really things that 'identity escrow' enabled
privacy products are what the market is looking for,
they are seriously clueless.

This is obviously snake oil.





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/




From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Mon Sep 18 07:37:46 2000
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:37:46 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its head
In-Reply-To: <84ya0uo5zc.fsf@athena.dhis.org>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote:

>   A) I have "increased blood flows" when I have a pulsating headache
>   too. I have "increased blood flows" whenever my heart rate and
>   blood pressure increase. I'm not a neurologist, but I'd figure that
>   that doesn't mean anything neurologically. It dosen't even mean
>   that there's enhanced activity in that region.

Actually I think it's usually taken to mean that. As for the amygdala, it's
not exactly pure science to say that increased activity in that region
causes any damage or is associated with whatever negative impact these
people think sex/violence incurs. Since this particular nucleus has a lot to
do with fight or flight reactions and primitive emotions, I'd be ready to
bet on similar reactions being found in anybody having fun/suffering
stress/whatever.

>   That way you can actually tell which neurons are firing? (When a
>   neuron generates an action potential, it doesn't use any
>   energy. It uses it when it recovers. So when a neuron fires a lot,
>   it sucks in a lot of glucose, which means that the radioactive
>   glucose winds up in the neurons, which means that it's held there,
>   which means that you can see it on a PET scan.)

Actually bloodflow has been found more accurate a predictor of neural
activity in some studies than the use of radioactive markers - for some
reason, the metabolic activity of human cells does not always get reflected
in their oxygen/glucose consumption in any straight forward way.

>   meaningless. Do a behavoral study, then it might have some
>   validity. 

My point exactly.

>   D) Why would you use an MRI in this case _at all_?

I think the fastest MRI equipment can go upto tens (or even
hundreds? anybody?) of images per second. Tracking bloodflow at such a high
temporal resolution actually gives a lot more information about the local
activity of the brain than those relatively static PET shots. (Remember, PET
requires considerable repetition, consentration and conditioning before
sharp images of brain activity are acquired.)

>     A) The researchers were purposefully trying to obscure data.

Not likely. Few people with MRI access are stupid enough to do this. Of
course, we might find that the researchers have a concurring viewpoint on
the subject matter...

>     B) The stupid attorney, and by extension probably the stupid judge,
>     is trying to pull one over on the intentionally-stupid jury and
>     voluntarily-stupid public, by distorting a biomedical study. 

More than likely. Is this something new in the censorship debate?

>    * The public school system in the area: The shooter most likely
>      had a history of behavoral problems, yet they put him in the
>      general population.

General population? Phew...

>7) Why can't we place the blame where it belongs: On the shooter?

'Cause that would mean children aren't innocent?

Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university





From mischief at lanesbry.com  Mon Sep 18 07:45:01 2000
From: mischief at lanesbry.com (Ralph Seberry)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:45:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 07:57:31AM -0500
References: <20000917161501.A19826@lanesbry.com> 
Message-ID: <20000918113847.D30492@lanesbry.com>

On Sunday, 17 Sep 2000 at 07:57, Jim Choate  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 17 Sep 2000, Ralph Seberry wrote:
> > 
> > Nothing about "thousand feet" waterfalls that I could see, Jim.
> 
> Sigh, I should fucking charge you labor for this...

[snip]

It's good to confirm you're as sloppy in reading email and geology
as you are in composing your usual half-baked COTUS rants.

It says waterfall. Nothing about the "1000 feet", the claim I
repeatedly questioned. To confirm this, use your self-proclaimed
search skills on the page for "1000" and "thousand".

Big claims require big proof. Not, "Yes, I'm sure" - your initial
response.






From games-register at yahoo-inc.com  Mon Sep 18 11:53:37 2000
From: games-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:53:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Games
Message-ID: <200009181853.LAA29476@e9.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: cypherpunks2000

Your email address: 
  cypherpunks at toad.com

We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
forget your Yahoo! ID or password.  
To learn how to change this address, read below.

**********************************************************

WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT?

You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of 
Yahoo's free, personalized services.   

My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
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To see a full list go to 
  http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/family/more.html

You can return to Yahoo! Games by going to
  http://play.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE EMAIL ADDRESS ON YOUR ACCOUNT

Just go to any of Yahoo!'s Personalized Properties 
( like http://my.yahoo.com ) and look for the Account 
Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
under the options).  The Account Information page will 
let you update your email address, password, home and work 
address and other personal information and preferences.

**********************************************************

THANK YOU FOR SIGNING UP WITH YAHOO!

If you have additional questions regarding other Yahoo! 
Services, we suggest Yahoo! Help Central at: 
http://help.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to
use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the 
following address:
http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKZI53f2J1d3J5fHQ1Nzc3OI4heUpOcWJOc3p5eWVyN2FkIXVKTjFONDc0NTYwIXNKYGY%3d

If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKZI53f2J1d3J5fHQ1Nzc3OI4heUpOcWJOc3p5eWVyN2FkIXVKTjFONDc0NTYwIXNKYGY=

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your 
reply) with REMOVE as the subject line.

[63.24.127.31]


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From support at edgar-online.com  Mon Sep 18 08:57:03 2000
From: support at edgar-online.com (support at edgar-online.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:57:03 EDT
Subject: CDR: Welcome to EDGAR Online! Here's Your Password
Message-ID: <200009181606.JAA16929@toad.com>

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From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Sep 18 09:16:44 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:16:44 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <001701c01e54$ca887300$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000918091121.0082ac00@pop.sprynet.com>

At 10:38 AM 9/18/00 -0400, petro wrote:
>	I'm not saying that only stupid people join these kinds of 
>groups, but that of the people who join these groups, the stupid ones 
>will wind up in the "bullet stopper" positions.

"Cannon fodder" is the more common historic term..

Maxim's maxim: machineguns beat rifles.








  








From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Mon Sep 18 02:32:56 2000
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:32:56 +0300 (EEST)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C395EC.63E2@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>	AIDS/HIV:	$39,172.00
>	Diabetes:	$ 5,449.00
>	Cancer:		$ 3,776.00
>	Heart Disease:	$ 1,056.00
>	Stroke:		$   765.00
>
>	What's wrong with this picture?	You don't get cancer by engaging 
>in promiscuous sex.

Nope. You get it by smoking. You likely get diabetes by leading an unhealthy
life - overweight is a primary factor. The same goes for cardiovascular
conditions as well. 'Advocate taxing girth?

Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Mon Sep 18 10:10:21 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:10:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: 


> Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote:
> 
> Jeesh.
> 
> (From a practical standpoint, here in the Bay Area there is a growing 
> oversupply of lawyers. According to the newspapers, modulo their 
> biases and inaccuracies, many lawyer larvae are accepting "paralegal" 
> positions. As with past "shortages of doctors" and "shortages of 
> teachers," the boom-bust cycle continues.
[...]

Doctors, lawyers, teachers... All three groups share a certain property:
They have effective control over who may practice their profession. In
their own self-interest, they act to stifle competition. There are, of
course
weasel words to justify this: 'maintaining standards' being the most 
common ones.

Teacher's unions rail against merit pay and vouchers, which would provide
some notion of a competitive market in education. The unions insist on a 
seniority system. They even attempt to ban volunteer part-time teachers
on 'quality' grounds, so you can't go in and give a computer class if
you wanted to, since you don't have a teaching degree.

Similar points can be made about doctors, and the use of IANAL indicates
the fevered grip the bar associations have on legal advice and
representation.

Howver, the teaching and medical professions can't act to increase their
feedstock - uneducated-as-yet children and ailing people respectively. 
Idle tort lawyers can, and do, dream up new ways to sue and generally 
make the world a nastier place as they enrich themselves.

Only rulers are worse. 

Imagine if the software business were like this - that the programmers 
of the late 40's had formed an American Programmers Association, 
and it was unlawful for anyone without APA certification to write 
code for money. Ditto for using software not blessed by the APA. 
Entrance to the hallowed membership would, of course, require a 
four year electrical engineering degree followed by a post graduate 
degree from an accredited computer school. 

I'll leave it to others to imagine the world with an APA. I think it would
be a much poorer place.

Peter Trei

Disclaimer: the above represents my opinion only. IANAL.





From kerry at vscape.com  Mon Sep 18 13:22:55 2000
From: kerry at vscape.com (Kerry L. Bonin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:22:55 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Amex supports CARNIVORE enabled Anonymity System
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000918132242.04da9210@shell13.ba.best.com>

>(1) Okay, I *might* :-) excuse Mondex from this rule, I suppose, but only
>because the smart-cards themselves are physically swappable, and thus at
>the physical, card-to-card level, anyway, are bearer instruments, but I
>would only say so under a regime in which those cards *contents*, the
>balances therein, are exchangeable for, or better, denominated, in some
>*other* internet bearer instrument like Chaumian cash, which may, I'm
>afraid, defeat the economics of Mondex altogether. Obviously, Doug Barnes
>has pointed this out more than once or twice here and elsewhere.

The indirect problem with Mondex is that while the card-to-card level
transactions are theoretically less traceable than a typical online
validation, they (the cards themselves) still store at least 10 previous
transaction records including full card id.  Additionally, every programmer
of Mondex interface devices and terminals (including myself, at one time)
gets ordered by at least one involved party (the bank, the terminal
manufacturer, the terminal financier, ect.) to include full audit trail
generation from card-chip and any downloaded card-card transaction
histories for uploading as part of nightly settlement.  (Which is why I
stopped supporting Mondex...)  This defeats the otherwise good anonymity
possible with Mondex.





From dialpad.2468541.200.0 at reply.dialpad.com  Mon Sep 18 13:50:09 2000
From: dialpad.2468541.200.0 at reply.dialpad.com (Your Friends at Dialpad)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:50:09 -0700
Subject: CDR: Exciting News from Dialpad!
Message-ID: <969310212598.dialpad.2468541.200.0@reply.dialpad.com>

Dialpad.com Newsletter

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From George at Orwellian.Org  Mon Sep 18 10:59:11 2000
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:59:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Amex supports CARNIVORE enabled Anonymity System
Message-ID: <200009181759.NAA04950@www3.aa.psiweb.com>

A Yahoo wrote:
%    What a load of shit.   If you check that URL the next
%    thing you see the following release:
%    
%    http://www.privada.net/news/releases/20000717.html
%    #
%    #    Privada's Technology Protects Users' Privacy, Only
%    #    Monitors Those Who Abuse It
%    #    [snip]
%    
%    Obviously AMEX & Privada don't have a clue as to the
%    history of privacy and privacy tools...
%    
%    What about civil john doe complaints?
%    What about Church of $cientology and Penet.fi?
%    What about the entire key escrow debate?
%    What about the entire clipper debate?
%    
%    If anyone really things that 'identity escrow' enabled
%    privacy products are what the market is looking for,
%    they are seriously clueless.
%
%    This is obviously snake oil.

No, the emphasis is on what consumers in general want.
And it delivers.

Those wishing to push the edge of free speech aren't
going to be satisfied, but the new services meet the
needs of regular consumers/people accessing the Internet.

That market dwarfs what ZKS/Anonymizer will ever get.

Even the Anonymizer shut down its free version due to abuse.

And Yahoo has cooperated with civil subpeonas regarding
stock touting / company disparagement.

Yet you use it. It's free and does what you need.
AmEx is offering their services for free for cardholders.

ZKS isn't exactly mixmaster WWW surfing, at some point
there will be traceability, given the necessary court order.

Albeit ZKS seems to be the best at what it does.

Too bad the cardholders aren't setting up for you to choose
your privacy provider, like cable is being pressured to
allow choice of ISP.




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 18 12:10:16 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:10:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, dmolnar wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Trei, Peter wrote:
> 
> > Entrance to the hallowed membership would, of course, require a 
> > four year electrical engineering degree followed by a post graduate 
> > degree from an accredited computer school. 
> > 
> > I'll leave it to others to imagine the world with an APA. I think it would
> > be a much poorer place.
> 
> Dude, do you read _Communications of the ACM_ ? Professional licensing of
> "software engineers" is a fact in Texas. 

No, it isn't. I have lived in Texas for 34 of my 40 years and written
software for income the last 23 years. My current job title is 'Senior
Software Engineer' and I don't even have a degree. While it is true I can't 
use any term with 'Engineer' in it for personal business without a degree
(you used to not need this), 5 years of apprenticeship to a current PE,
and pass a test (though my employer can call me an 'engineer' or whatever
with no regulation), there are no legal requirements for same either. You
can get a 'Professional Engineer' certification but it is not specificaly
in programming. It includes a bunch of crap out of EE & ME as well.

There IS a lot of talk about it but there is NO requirement for licensing
as a 'Professional Engineer' in Tx. It probably won't pass since the vast
majority of programmers I work with are dead against it.

I'm afraid that if this is what the ACM is passing around, they got it
wrong.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From newsletter at edgar-online.com  Mon Sep 18 13:11:03 2000
From: newsletter at edgar-online.com (EDGAR Online News)
Date: 18 Sep 2000 14:11:03 -0600
Subject: CDR: SECrets Newsletter 9.18.00
Message-ID: <20000918201103.6240.qmail@foxtrot.businesslink.net>

EDGAR Online's SECrets Newsletter
Editor: Timothy Middleton, EDGAR Online Analyst
mailto:editor at edgar-online.com

***INSIDE THIS ISSUE
NEW AND NOTEWORTHY: SEC Warns on Pre-IPO Fraud
QUESTION OF THE WEEK: Schedule 13D
ON THE INSIDE: TCF Financial Insiders are Sellers
COMPANIES MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE
PEOPLE MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE

/----------ADVERTISEMENT--------------------------------\
Starved for food for thought? The free Business 2.0 Daily
Insight newsletter delivers easily digestible business
insights. Subscribe today at
http://live.doubleclick.net/business2-0/Biz20_sec.html
\-------------------------------------------------------/

----------------------------------------
*** NEW AND NOTEWORTHY ***
----------------------------------------
SEC Warns on 'Pre - IPO' Fraud
Federal regulators have detected an increase in fraudulent securities
offerings online and are warning investors to be careful of online
securities sales. Regulators are also warning investors to be wary
of ``pre-IPO'' stock offerings - i.e. opportunities for investors
to get a "jump" on the market before the firms go public. The SEC
has recently charged several offending companies with fraud.
On Thursday, the SEC said it had reached a settlement with Austin,
Texas-based 1stBuy.com Inc., a company that operates an Internet
retail site. Roger D. Pringle, the company's founder and chief
financial officer, neither admitted nor denied wrongdoing in
agreeing to the settlement of the SEC's allegations, but agreed to
pay a $25,000 fine. Regulators say 1stBuy.com raised $3.8 million
from 1,200 investors nationwide by making false and misleading
statements about an IPO, and by referring to the offering as a
``pre-IPO.''
According to the Associate Press, it was the fourth such action
by the SEC recently. Since March, the SEC has alleged that three
Internet companies, New World Web Vision.com, Y2K Highway Inc. and
Stadtt Media LLC, committed securities fraud by making false claims
about IPOs. All three cases are pending in federal court.

----------------------------------------
*** QUESTION OF THE WEEK***
----------------------------------------

QUESTION: What is a Schedule 13D?

ANSWER:  Schedule 13D is an SEC document that must be filed by any
person or entity acquiring direct or beneficial ownership of at least
5% of any class of a company's outstanding shares. The purchaser must
file Schedule 13D within 10 days of reaching the 5% ownership
threshold, and all subsequent trades must be stated promptly on an
"amended" 13D. The purchaser must also indicate their intention of
ownership - i.e. passive investment or takeover attempt. The
purchaser must also file a 13D with the company itself, and with the
stock exchange on which the shares are listed.

----------------------------------------
***ON THE INSIDE***
----------------------------------------

TCF Financial Insiders are Sellers

Regional banks have defied a broader rally this year in the financial
services sector. While the financial services sector is ahead 7.7%
through July, according to Standard & Poor's, the average regional
bank stock was down 3.3%.

Not so shares of TCF Financial Corp (TCB). They are up 57% this year,
not including dividends paid in February, May and August. The holding
company for TCF National Bank and TCF National Bank Colorado, which
operates in five upper Midwest states, likewise hiked its quarterly
payout during the period to 21.3 cents a share, from 18.8 cents.

Insiders have shown prescience in the past, selling into strength in
their company's stock just ahead of sometimes-steep declines. Lately,
they've been selling again. In the last two months, five of them have
filed Form 144s with the SEC that indicate the sale of more than
200,000 shares, according to Thomson Financial/First Call. Most
recently William A. Cooper, chief executive, reported on Aug. 23
selling 90,000 shares for $32 apiece, or nearly $2.9 million
http://www.edgar-online.com/auth/doctrans/default.asp?doc=B-117264

TCF has prospered in part because it has managed to boost deposits
significantly. In general, says James F. Catudal, manager of Fidelity
Select Financial Services Fund, (FIDSX): "Regional banks are right
now funding loan growth with purchased money. They're not able to
attract low-cost deposits from customers anymore."

That's exactly what TCF has managed to do, however. On Sept. 9, it
announced that its network of branches in supermarkets had topped
$1 billion in deposits, or nearly 10% of the bank's total. TCF is
the fourth-largest operator of bank branches in supermarkets, with
212 of them. In the Chicago area, TCF claims to have the second-highest
number of non-interest bearing retail checking accounts.

Thomson's Paul Elliott says Cooper "last sold shares in November of
last year, ahead of a 35% decline" in the company's stock.

Another prominent seller has been Timothy P. Bailey, president of
the company's Wisconsin operations. He filed Form 144 on July 26
http://www.edgar-online.com/auth/doctrans/default.asp?doc=B-113165
reporting the sale of 4,000 shares for $29.88 per share, or about
$119,500.

A spokeswoman for TFC said, "We do not comment on insider selling
transactions."

/----------ADVERTISEMENT------------------------------------\
DON'T MISS OUT ON YOUR CHANCE TO WIN AN IBM THINKPAD 600X
Register now for any of ITworld.com's weekly IT email
newsletters, and enter our sweepstakes for your chance
to win a powerful new IBM ThinkPad 600x. CLICK HERE!
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\----------------------------------------------------------------/

---------------------------------------
*** IPOs ON DECK FROM IPO EXPRESS***
----------------------------------------
USER NOTE: Before a company can go public
(that is, sell shares on an exchange), it must file an S-1 form with
the SEC.  The S-1 document, easily accessible via EDGAR Online, i
extensive and includes such information as: risk factors, financials,
strategy, industry trends, management bios, investors and more.

IPOs on Deck

Kyphon Inc. (KYPH) of Sunnyvale, CA
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpressn/company.asp?company=4998

EDGAR INSIGHT: Kyphon Inc. filed Sep. 13 for an IPO.  US Bancorp
Piper Jaffray Inc. is the lead underwriter.  The proposed offering
is expected to raise $57.5 million.  The company makes orthopedic
devices for spine treatment, with over 300 U.S. physicians trained
in the use of their products.  Warburg Pincus Ventures L.P. has a
49.5% stake in the company.

Monolithic System Technology Inc. (MOSY) of Sunnyvale, CA
http://www.edgar-online.com/secrets.asp?d=A-890394-0000912057-00-041425

EDGAR INSIGHT: Monolithic System Technology Inc. filed Sep. 14 to set
its price at $9-$11 per share and its number of shares to 5 million.
JP Morgan Securities Inc. is the lead underwriter.  The proposed
offering is expected to raise $63.3 million.  The company markets the
embedded-memory technology 1T-SRAM and has strategic relationships
with Lucent Technologies, Nintendo Corp., and NEC Corp.  The
37-employee company's revenues were $15.4 million in 1999.

Novatel Wireless Inc. (NVTL) of San Diego, CA
http://www.edgar-online.com/secrets.asp?d=A-1022652-0000950150-00-000764

EDGAR INSIGHT: Novatel Wireless Inc. filed Sep. 14 to set its IPO
price at $10-$12 per share and the number of shares at 7 million.
CS First Boston Corp. is the lead underwriter.  The company is a
leading provider of wireless communications access solutions, with
customers including Verizon Wireless and AT&T Wireless.  The
248-employee company's revenues in 1999 were $9.6 million.

Deals Undone

Intellisys Group Inc. (ISGP) of Mountain View, CA
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpressn/company.asp?company=2924

EDGAR INSIGHT: Intellisys Group Inc. filed Sep. 13 to withdraw its
IPO.  Wedbush Morgan Securities Inc. was the lead underwriter.  The
offering had been expected to raise $18 million.  The company
installs audio, video and data networking systems, and clients
include Netscape, NASA-Ames Research Labs and Stanford University.

Insession Technologies Inc. (INSX) of Hinsdale, IL
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpressn/company.asp?company=4759

EDGAR INSIGHT: Insession Technologies Inc. filed Sep. 14 to withdraw
its IPO.  Salomon Smith Barney Inc. was the lead underwriter.  The
proposed offering was expected to raise $70 million.  The company
provides e-business software and service for related applications,
and has 340 customers worldwide.  The 161-employee company's 1999
revenues were $39.6 million.

Deals Redone

Luminent Inc. (LMNE) of Chatsworth, CA
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpressn/company.asp?company=4866

EDGAR INSIGHT: Luminent Inc. filed Sep. 13 to change its ticker
symbol to LMNE from LUMN, and to set its price at $13-$15 per share
and offer 12 million shares.  CS First Boston Corp. is the lead
underwriter.  The projected offering is expected to raise $155
million.  The company is a maker of fiber optic components, and is a
unit of MRV Communications (MRVC), an optical component and network
company that will own approximately 92% of Luminent Inc. after the
IPO.

Hydrogenics Corp. (HYGS) of Woodbridge, Ontario, Canada
http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpressn/company.asp?company=4875

EDGAR INSIGHT: Hydrogenics Corp. filed Sep. 13 to set its IPO price
at $10-$12 per share and offer 7 million shares.  The 63-employee
company tests fuel cells for General Motors (GM), the U.S. Army and
other companies and institutions.  The testing stations are billed
as "environment friendly" because water and heat are the main
byproducts. Salomon Smith Barney Inc. is the lead underwriter.

/----------ADVERTISEMENT-----------------------------------------\
Advertise in the SECrets newsletter and get in front of the leaders
in the financial community. Go to
http://www.edgar-online.com/advert.asp for more information.
\----------------------------------------------------------------/

----------------------------------------
**COMPANIES MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE***
----------------------------------------
1stBuy.com Inc
AT&T Wireless
CS First Boston Corp
Fidelity Select Financial Services Fund
General Motors
Hydrogenics Corp
Insession Technologies Inc
Intellisys Group Inc
JP Morgan Securities Inc
Kyphon Inc
Lucent Technologies
Luminent Inc
Monolithic System Technology Inc
MRV Communications
NASA-Ames Research Labs
NEC Corp
Netscape
New World Web Vision.com
Nintendo Corp
Novatel Wireless Inc
Salomon Smith Barney Inc
Stadtt Media LLC
Stanford University
TCF Financial Corp
U.S. Army
US Bancorp Piper Jaffray Inc
Verizon Wireless
Warburg Pincus Ventures LP
Wedbush Morgan Securities Inc
Y2K Highway Inc

----------------------------------------
**PEOPLE MENTIONED IN THIS ISSUE***
----------------------------------------
Bailey, Timothy P.
Catudal, James F.
Cooper, William A.
Elliott, Paul
Pringle, Roger D.

----------------------------------------
ABOUT THE EDITOR
----------------------------------------
SECrets is written by EDGAR Online Analyst, Timothy Middleton.
Timothy has covered business and financial topics for
The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Dow Jones News Service
and Crain's New York Business.  Twice nominated for the
Pulitzer Prize in investigative journalism, his weekly business
reports can be heard on WCBS Radio and Microsoft MoneyCentral Radio.

For press, syndication, and advertising inquiries, contact
Group Publisher Hank Berkowitz at
mailto:hberkowitz at edgar-online.com
----------------------------------------
Copyright 2000, EDGAR Online, Inc.
http://www.edgar-online.com
----------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: The EDGAR Online report
contains observations of its editor
Timothy Middleton, a consultant of EDGAR
Online and is for informational purposes
only.  These statements and expressions
are the sole opinions of Mr. Middleton and
EDGAR Online does not endorse nor
necessarily agree on such statements
and expressions.  Factual statements in
this report are made as of the date
stated and are subject to change without notice.
Nothing contained herein shall be deemed to be
recommendations to buy, hold or sell
securities nor shall it purport to be a
complete analysis of the companies
mentioned.  While the information
contained in this Report and the opinions
contained herein are based on sources believed to
be reliable, neither Mr. Middleton nor
EDGAR Online have independently verified the
facts, assumptions and/or estimates that may
be contained in this Report. Accordingly, no
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on, the fairness, accuracy, completeness or
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*#* cypherpunks at toad.com




From petro at bounty.org  Mon Sep 18 14:14:54 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:14:54 -0700
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 


>
>Imagine if the software business were like this - that the programmers
>of the late 40's had formed an American Programmers Association,
>and it was unlawful for anyone without APA certification to write
>code for money. Ditto for using software not blessed by the APA.
>Entrance to the hallowed membership would, of course, require a
>four year electrical engineering degree followed by a post graduate
>degree from an accredited computer school.
>
>I'll leave it to others to imagine the world with an APA. I think it would
>be a much poorer place.

	Yeah, but we probably wouldn't have Windows either.

	It might be a fair trade...
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Mon Sep 18 11:39:21 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:39:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Trei, Peter wrote:

> Entrance to the hallowed membership would, of course, require a 
> four year electrical engineering degree followed by a post graduate 
> degree from an accredited computer school. 
> 
> I'll leave it to others to imagine the world with an APA. I think it would
> be a much poorer place.

Dude, do you read _Communications of the ACM_ ? Professional licensing of
"software engineers" is a fact in Texas. Not an issue goes by without
someone piping up about how great it would be if every state followed that
lead. 
Some discussion and context from licensing of other kinds of engineers is
at http://www.construx.com/stevemcc/gr-badges.htm

An "American Programmer's Association" may be closer than you think. 

-David





From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Mon Sep 18 11:42:55 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:42:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Here's another link on licensing of software engineers, this time from the
ACM:

http://www.acm.org/serving/se_policy/report.html

it seems that cryptographic/security software, if we ever get the
liability structure whose lack is often pointed out by Schneier ("we don't
have good security because we don't have to"), may be a prime target for
such licensing.

-david






From petro at bounty.org  Mon Sep 18 14:47:12 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:47:12 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 

>That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses cannot 
>send messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.

	Yes. It is too much to ask.

	Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat 
the same questions.

	Which would be understandable if by "history" you meant a 2 
day discussion back in 1995.

	In this case, history was a 2 week long thread *LAST MONTH*.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From apoio at giganetstore.com  Mon Sep 18 06:59:00 2000
From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:59:00 +0100
Subject: CDR: Ericsson, O Poder da Mobilidade
Message-ID: <00be20059131290WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore>

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que pensávamos "

 
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From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 18 13:29:44 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:29:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
In-Reply-To: <20000919065604.A48150@lanesbry.com>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Ralph Seberry wrote:

> On Sunday, 17 Sep 2000 at 23:09, Jim Choate  wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Ralph Seberry wrote:
> > > It's good to confirm you're as sloppy in reading email and geology
> > > as you are in composing your usual half-baked COTUS rants.
> > 
> > What the fuck is COTUS?
> > 
> 
> constitution of the united states.

Half-baked? I look forward to YOUR cite. I stand ready to defend those
half-baked ideas to all.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep 18 12:53:13 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:53:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Amex supports CARNIVORE enabled Anonymity System
In-Reply-To: <200009181759.NAA04950@www3.aa.psiweb.com>
References: <200009181759.NAA04950@www3.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: 

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From mischief at lanesbry.com  Mon Sep 18 12:59:24 2000
From: mischief at lanesbry.com (Ralph Seberry)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 15:59:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: About that waterfall at Gibralter...
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 11:09:27PM -0500
References: <20000918113847.D30492@lanesbry.com> 
Message-ID: <20000919065604.A48150@lanesbry.com>

On Sunday, 17 Sep 2000 at 23:09, Jim Choate  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Ralph Seberry wrote:
> > It's good to confirm you're as sloppy in reading email and geology
> > as you are in composing your usual half-baked COTUS rants.
> 
> What the fuck is COTUS?
> 

constitution of the united states.

> > It says waterfall. Nothing about the "1000 feet", the claim I
> 
> No, it says 'gigantic waterfall'. Do your own research. I just happen to
> know from past work that the waterfall was estimated to be about 1,000 ft.

So now it's not in the page. After all your bluster, you don't have
a cite. Maybe if you learn how to spell Gibraltar your searches will
be more fruitful.





From kerry at vscape.com  Mon Sep 18 13:44:06 2000
From: kerry at vscape.com (Kerry L. Bonin)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:44:06 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000918133455.04daab30@shell13.ba.best.com>

At 02:42 PM 9/18/00 -0400, dmolnar wrote:
>
>
>Here's another link on licensing of software engineers, this time from the
>ACM:
>
>http://www.acm.org/serving/se_policy/report.html
>
>it seems that cryptographic/security software, if we ever get the
>liability structure whose lack is often pointed out by Schneier ("we don't
>have good security because we don't have to"), may be a prime target for
>such licensing.
>
>-david

To one extent, this has already happened.  Under 15 CFR Part 740.13, in
order to distribute public domain / open source cryptographic software
without the classic restrictions under ITAR, you have to register yourself
by sending an email to the NSA (well, the BXA address whose office happens
to be in Ft. Meade.)  

So we already have mandatory registration for open source crypto developers.

If key escrow legislation finally passes, they've got the list of
individuals and companies to lean on, and imagine thats where licensing
will come in.





From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 18 14:50:56 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:50:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: SW License
In-Reply-To: <39C683B3.65FCF142@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:

> How would such legislation affect those who call themselves SW :
> 
>  designers
>  practitioners
>  developers
>  creators
>  quality assessors
>  implementors
>  builders
>  artists
>  authors
>  artisans
>  ...

At least here in Texas not at all.

> Because they are not licensed SWEs they would not be able to get their
> obj modules signed to allow execution on legal HW? Illegal HW would be
> detected and prosecutable?

Actualy it has to do more with insurance and legal liability. With the
certification it actualy makes it easier to hold somebody responsible for
failures. There are also a lot of insurance issues (which I don't claim to
fully understand, nor want to) as well. At least here in Texas the move
seems to be pushed mainly by lawyers and other litigation related groups.

It's probably the same group, at least in part, who pushed through the
changes on the Professional Engineer Cert. that required a college degree
to even join the PE program for certification. The same for the Bar a few
years ago they changed it so you had to be a graduage of an accredited law
school.

It's about as silly as the attempted outlawing of self-help legal material
here in Texas by the Bar and its cohorts.

It's a mechanism to raise taxes through the licensing of all business (no
objection) and inrease litigation (big objection).

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From zulfikar at MIT.EDU  Mon Sep 18 13:52:34 2000
From: zulfikar at MIT.EDU (Zulfikar Ramzan)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:52:34 -0400
Subject: Preliminary Outline of a Proposed Micromint Specification
Message-ID: 

Hi,

Based on conversations and ideas due to Ron Rivest and Adi Shamir, I've
prepared a manuscript proposing some of the parameter and algorithm choices
for an actual implementation of their Micromint scheme.

The manuscript is still more of a preliminary design spec as many issues
associated with a Micromint implementation are not addressed (though a good
number of the issues are).

The manuscript was prepared with the sponsorship of the Internet Bearer
Underwriting Corporation (http://www.ibuc.com).

It is available at:

http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~zulfikar/papers/mm-spec-outline.pdf

and a pointer to it can be found from:

http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~zulfikar/MyResearch/homepage.html

Comments and criticisms are welcome.

Thanks,
-- 

--Zully

-------
Zulfikar Ramzan  (AKA Zully)
Laboratory for Computer Science, MIT
NE43-311, (617) 253-2345
http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~zulfikar/homepage.html

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From ravage at ssz.com  Mon Sep 18 14:53:22 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:53:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 


On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Asymmetric wrote:

> That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses cannot send 
> messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.

Yes, it would be too much to ask. Please stop now, this is a dead horse
many times over. See the archives if you are unaware of the recent
history.

There are moderated nodes you can join.

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Mon Sep 18 14:03:13 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:03:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: SW License
Message-ID: <39C683B3.65FCF142@lsil.com>

> 
> Here's another link on licensing of software engineers, this time from the
> ACM:
> 
> http://www.acm.org/serving/se_policy/report.html
> 
> it seems that cryptographic/security software, if we ever get the
> liability structure whose lack is often pointed out by Schneier ("we don't
> have good security because we don't have to"), may be a prime target for
> such licensing.
> 
> -david
> 
How would such legislation affect those who call themselves SW :

 designers
 practitioners
 developers
 creators
 quality assessors
 implementors
 builders
 artists
 authors
 artisans
 ...

Because they are not licensed SWEs they would not be able to get their
obj modules signed to allow execution on legal HW? Illegal HW would be
detected and prosecutable?

An ineffective but burdensome SW Eng licensing bureaucracy will probably
be set up that will limit or control the access of some developers to
certain contracts or projects especially anything purchased using public
funds or "affecting the safety of the public".





From all at biosys.net  Mon Sep 18 14:08:24 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:08:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: would it be so much to ask..
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>

That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses cannot send 
messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.

-------signature file-------
PGP Key Fingerprint:
446B 7718 B219 9F1E 43DD  8E4A 6BE9 D739 CCC5 7FD7

"I don't think [Linux] will be very successful in the long run."
"My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite 
unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse."
-Ken Thompson, Interview May 1999.

http://www.freebsd.org
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve

http://www.rfnj.org
Radio Free New Jersey - 395 streams - 96kbps @ 44.1khz




From bear at sonic.net  Mon Sep 18 17:46:49 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:46:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Amex supports CARNIVORE enabled Anonymity System
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

>(1) Okay, I *might* :-) excuse Mondex from this rule, I suppose, but only
>because the smart-cards themselves are physically swappable, and thus at
>the physical, card-to-card level, anyway, are bearer instruments, but I
>would only say so under a regime in which those cards *contents*, the
>balances therein, are exchangeable for, or better, denominated, in some
>*other* internet bearer instrument like Chaumian cash, which may, I'm
>afraid, defeat the economics of Mondex altogether. Obviously, Doug Barnes
>has pointed this out more than once or twice here and elsewhere.

In order for a currency to stand, it really has to be backed up by 
a commodity.  "Note may be exchanged for gold at any branch", followed 
by a short list of branches, and the guarantee of a company or organization 
with physical assets in *EXCESS* of its issued notes, is really about 
the only thing that can convince people of the validity of a new 
currency.

Banks are able to issue more currency than they have hard assets - 
but they also have massive insurance infrastructures backing them up
and the weight of tradition behind them.  A Digital Currency issuer 
wouldn't have that -- thus, a digital currency issuer could only be 
trusted to the extent of its assets. 

I've watched digital currency issuers come and go - E-cash, digicash, 
beenz, flooz, first digital, etc... Well, not all of them are out of 
business, but none of them really seem to be taking off either. 
Damn few of them toed the line on privacy, and all of them were 
beholden to massive venture capital with all the riskiness and 
pressure on the near term that that implies. Nobody limited their 
issue to their level of assets or backed up their notes with anything 
that would have value if the company folded - and so far nobody has 
been trusted by the markets.

Pepsico could issue a viable digital currency -- which you could 
use to buy Pizza Hut pizzas or KFC for delivery, or trade to someone 
else. But can some startup, without massive financial muscles, 
balanced on the razor edge of venture capital?  No way. 

				Bear







From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Mon Sep 18 15:01:40 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:01:40 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> <004401c01f2e$5fce82e0$6dd9aec7@authoriu> <3.0.1.32.20000916062730.009e5500@pop3.idt.net> <3.0.1.32.20000917082505.009e9650@pop3.idt.net> <39C4F73E.46AB@attglobal.net> <001f01c020f4$fc71cf40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net> <39C59EE5.1B6B@attglobal.net> <3.0.5.32.20000918065752.039bf100@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <000901c021bc$06e1bf40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

> >If we are playing that game, I have 5000+ volumes here. All 5000 of them
> >AND my gorilla say that you are full of it.
> >
> That's "Orangutang".

No, Helena was in a different room at the time. It was most certainly 
the Gorilla (and it is hard to make a mistake on such matters).

I can send photos if you like.

        Phill





From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Mon Sep 18 18:26:37 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:26:37 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its head
In-Reply-To: Sampo A Syreeni's message of "Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:37:46 -0400"
References: 
Message-ID: <84r96hjhqw.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Sampo A Syreeni  writes:

> On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote:
> 
[My comments concerning blood flows not corresponding directly with
increased neural activity, followed by Mr. Syreeni's response to the
contrary.] 

> Actually bloodflow has been found more accurate a predictor of neural
> activity in some studies than the use of radioactive markers - for some
> reason, the metabolic activity of human cells does not always get reflected
> in their oxygen/glucose consumption in any straight forward way.

Point taken. I stand corrected.

> >   D) Why would you use an MRI in this case _at all_?
> 
> I think the fastest MRI equipment can go upto tens (or even
> hundreds? anybody?) of images per second. Tracking bloodflow at such a high
> temporal resolution actually gives a lot more information about the local
> activity of the brain than those relatively static PET shots. (Remember, PET
> requires considerable repetition, consentration and conditioning before
> sharp images of brain activity are acquired.)

You're right. Tens at the very least. 

> >     A) The researchers were purposefully trying to obscure data.
> 
> Not likely. Few people with MRI access are stupid enough to do this. Of
> course, we might find that the researchers have a concurring viewpoint on
> the subject matter...

I figured I'd present it anyway. Nobody who is in a position to have
access to the equipment, to get grant money, etc., is stupid enough to
obscure data. Other researchers would make their name mud in very
short order. If nothing else, it's a professional-self-preservation
thing. 

> >    * The public school system in the area: The shooter most likely
> >      had a history of behavoral problems, yet they put him in the
> >      general population.
> 
> General population? Phew...

Hey, it's a prison camp with a government re-education emphasis. No
sense mincing words. :)

> >7) Why can't we place the blame where it belongs: On the shooter?
> 
> 'Cause that would mean children aren't innocent?

And because it would mean that the government doofuses can't sue the
people with the deepest pockets, and can't use it to bolster policy
positions, and it's political suicide to start attacking the primary
sources of problems. It's easier to call everyone a victim and lose no
votes and appear compassionate, than it is to place blame where it
belongs, lose some votes, and get attacked as "mean-spirited" by the
opposition. 

Censorship and gun control sound like risky schemes to me. 





From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep 18 18:39:34 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 21:39:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Amex supports CARNIVORE enabled Anonymity System
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 5:46 PM -0700 on 9/18/00, Ray Dillinger wrote:


> In order for a currency to stand, it really has to be backed up by
> a commodity.

Sure you have to "ground out" into something tangible, or at least a fiat
currency ;-), sooner or later.

Someday, of course, you won't need the fiat bit, but pure commodities
aren't the end-state. You probably need a mix of stuff, including financial
proxies like debt and equity indices, and so on. But the core problem is
measuring inflation. Fortunately, :-), Paul Harrison and I have this giant
rant in the can about non-state bearer synthetic numeraires, using things
like digital bearer warehouse receipts for the hard stuff, a proxy for the
CPI...

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep 18 19:37:20 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 22:37:20 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Amex supports CARNIVORE enabled Anonymity System
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
Message-ID: 

At 9:39 PM -0400 on 9/18/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote:


> Someday, of course, you won't need the fiat bit, but pure commodities
> aren't the end-state. You probably need a mix of stuff, including financial
> proxies like debt and equity indices, and so on. But the core problem is
> measuring inflation. Fortunately, :-), Paul Harrison and I have this giant
> rant in the can about non-state bearer synthetic numeraires, using things
> like digital bearer warehouse receipts for the hard stuff, a proxy for the
> CPI...

By the way, the above isn't necessarily the end state, either.

A lot of people, probably me among them, subscribe to the theory advanced
by Eugene Fama (Efficient Market Hypothesis) and Fisher Black
(Black-Scholes option pricing formula) that if switching out of the
numeraire is cheap enough (insert Moore's Law here), it's probably better
to keep and price transactions in *appreciating* assets instead of assets
which don't earn a return.

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From support at edgar-online.com  Mon Sep 18 20:06:41 2000
From: support at edgar-online.com (support at edgar-online.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:06:41 EDT
Subject: CDR: EDGAR Online - Here is the Information You Requested
Message-ID: <200009190259.TAA08272@toad.com>

Your EDGAR Online (http://www.edgar-online.com) username and password are
case-sensitive and must be entered exactly as they are shown here.

Username: Cyperpunks  
Password: cypherpunks 

You can upgrade your current EDGAR Online Visitor Registration using these
identifiers at http://www.edgar-online.com/user_upgrade.asp.

If you have any questions email support at edgar-online.com or phone
1-800-416-6651 (203-852-5666) Monday - Friday, 9:00AM - 7:30PM EST.

EDGAR Online




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Mon Sep 18 21:23:09 2000
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 23:23:09 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C6E6B9.671F89E5@attglobal.net>
References: <200009181454.JAA02185@ecom1.wiu.edu>
 <39C6E6B9.671F89E5@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

At 00:08 -0400 9/19/00, jlhoffm at attglobal.net wrote:
>Betweens teenagers and adults?!  You must have been perusing a NAMBLA website
>from another world.

I'm sorry but you seem to be the one in another world.  Read the 
stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de.
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From nobody at dizum.com  Mon Sep 18 15:00:20 2000
From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:00:20 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: CDR: Re:  would it be so much to ask..
Message-ID: <0bf548e1501c3c9fa69a7bd5903de2b9@dizum.com>

On Monday, 18 Sep 2000, all at biosys.net wrote:

> That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses cannot
> send messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.

Would it be so much to ask you to post in complete sentences?  

Would it be so much to ask you to post to a node other than toad.com?  

Would it be so much to ask you to read the archives before offering
suggestions on list "improvement?"

Apparently, "yes," is the only answer.

Go away.




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Mon Sep 18 21:11:36 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:11:36 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000918133455.04daab30@shell13.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Kerry L. Bonin wrote:

> To one extent, this has already happened.  Under 15 CFR Part 740.13, in
> order to distribute public domain / open source cryptographic software
> without the classic restrictions under ITAR, you have to register yourself
> by sending an email to the NSA (well, the BXA address whose office happens
> to be in Ft. Meade.)  
> 
> So we already have mandatory registration for open source crypto developers.

Hm. That's true, but it's not in the spirit of what I meant. I was
thinking more along the lines of something tied to legal liability for
defects. That is, the registration/licensing comes about more
"organically" instead of being called into being straight by regulation. 

> 
> If key escrow legislation finally passes, they've got the list of
> individuals and companies to lean on, and imagine thats where licensing
> will come in.

Yup, any such list is dangerous - although the pressure may not come from
key escrow per se, but from businesses who become fed up with security
being "not the vendor's problem." As in "show us that all your crypto
engineers and subcontractors are properly licensed." Maybe you can think
of this as touching on reputation management or credential management,
although I expect most Professional Engineer certs are issued to True
Names.

Schneier has made the point several times that vendors do not provide
strong security because they generally aren't liable for the consequences.
I tend to agree with him. My worry is what the world will look like after
more people agree with him and then try to "fix" things their way. 

By the way, I am glad to hear from Choate that licensing is not as
draconian as I thought down in Texas. My apologies for the scare; I
suspect I was reading too much into the ACM reports about "Licensing of
Professional Engineers." Thankfully, the ACM seems to be resisting 
such moves for now (see second link), but who knows about five years down
the line.

(Bureaucratic inertia is no reason for complacency; I remember reading in
WIRED of 1995 or thereabouts of a "Digital Copyright Working Group"
about to convene and study the Internet "problem." Then nothing. 
Five years later, the U.S. has the DMCA.)
 
In fairness, "vendors don't provide security because they don't have to"  
seems to be a symptom of a larger issue with liability for software,
especially software sold to us mass market consumers.  I expect markets
exist in which software has to be held to an extremely high standard of
reliability (e.g. Space Shuttle, financial markets, health software,
embedded systems spring to mind). How are liability issues dealt with in
those fields, and how did they come to be that way? would the same thing
happen with crypto and security software? 
(how do I ask that question better, because it seems too vague now?)

Thanks,
-David





From support at edgar-online.com  Mon Sep 18 21:17:00 2000
From: support at edgar-online.com (support at edgar-online.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:17:00 EDT
Subject: CDR: EDGAR Online - Here is the Information You Requested
Message-ID: <200009190410.VAA09788@toad.com>

Your EDGAR Online (http://www.edgar-online.com) username and password are
case-sensitive and must be entered exactly as they are shown here.

Username: Cyperpunks  
Password: cypherpunks 

You can upgrade your current EDGAR Online Visitor Registration using these
identifiers at http://www.edgar-online.com/user_upgrade.asp.

If you have any questions email support at edgar-online.com or phone
1-800-416-6651 (203-852-5666) Monday - Friday, 9:00AM - 7:30PM EST.

EDGAR Online




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 18 21:59:41 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 00:59:41 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <200009181454.JAA02185@ecom1.wiu.edu>
	 <39C6E6B9.671F89E5@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <39C6F2BD.185@attglobal.net>

Kevin Elliott wrote:
> 
> At 00:08 -0400 9/19/00, jlhoffm at attglobal.net wrote:
> >Betweens teenagers and adults?!  You must have been perusing a NAMBLA website
> >from another world.
> 
> I'm sorry but you seem to be the one in another world.  Read the
> stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de.
> --

Sorry.  I was referring to my copies.

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 18 22:12:59 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:12:59 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <200009181454.JAA02185@ecom1.wiu.edu>
	 <39C6E6B9.671F89E5@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <39C6F5DB.19FF@attglobal.net>

Kevin Elliott wrote:
> 
> At 00:08 -0400 9/19/00, jlhoffm at attglobal.net wrote:
> >Betweens teenagers and adults?!  You must have been perusing a NAMBLA website
> >from another world.
> 
> I'm sorry but you seem to be the one in another world.  Read the
> stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de.

On second thought, I just checked out the stupid website you mentioned. 
 At http://www.nambla.de/topics.htm (one of the webpages which offers 
books for sale).  The cover of one of those books shows a very young 
boy.  There is no possible way that child is a teenager.  You're wrong.
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 18 22:17:36 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:17:36 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <200009181454.JAA02185@ecom1.wiu.edu>
	 <39C6E6B9.671F89E5@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <39C6F6F0.7B60@attglobal.net>

Kevin Elliott wrote:
> 
>Read the stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de.

Here's a little something else I picked up from the same stupid website 
(you know...the one you say only promotes sex between teenagers and 
adults...) 

	 be boys with names like Jimmy & Joey ~ 
     let's say one of them is almost eight, raggedy-kneed blue- 
     jeans & an old slouch tweed cap, hair & eyes both the same 
     soft Venetian brown, body svelte as a Caravaggio 
     urchin-cherub ~ and the other ten-&-a-half, huge slightly 
     crazy green eyes, world record eyelashes, hair the color 
     of Lindisfarne-gospel goldleaf ~ wild enthusiasts, boastful 
     liars, agents of chaos, cuddle-monsters, extortionists of 
     toys & favors, fancy-dancers, dirty jokesters, natural-born 
     exiles from the Mundus Imaginalis ~ right! there must be 
     millions like them in these frozen flatlands, millions of 
     secret epiphanies in thousands of icy boxy little houses at 
     every point of the night-whistle-echoing nation ~ but 
     imagine just this once instead of staying on the Wabash 
     Cannonball or whatever Zephyr you disembark just here & now & 
finally 
     penetrate the mystery of these lost-town boys who might have waited 
     unknowingly forever for someone to notice their beauty, might have 
     grown old and heavy, square & dull without ever communicating 
     their dirty-sweet fragrance & sheer unreasoning joy to a 
     single poet ~ but this time you finally get off the train 
     in this godforsaken grain-embargoed cowburg ~ and thanks to 
     the whim of some nearly defunct amerindian pagan-pervert 
     genius locii this time at last you get to meet Jimmy & a 
     Joey who are precisely as imagined, feed them cheeseburgers 
     & pink shakes & bribe them with action-figures & gum, these 
     two microcosms, these two fire-clowns ~ so that all of us 
     in a moment of mutual unspoken relief at this shattering of 
     worshipful destinies, all of us suddenly gracefully have to 
     embrace & kiss, kiss chaste & cool on the lips & grin like 
     bobcats for this fortunate derailment, this whistle-stop, 
     this milk-run, this hobo's muscatel"
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Mon Sep 18 22:39:10 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:39:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <200009181454.JAA02185@ecom1.wiu.edu>
	 <39C6E6B9.671F89E5@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <39C6FBFE.2901@attglobal.net>

And more from this "only TEENAGERS and adults" website...

	"Recently, I showed a friend a photograph of myself and a 
twelve-year-old boy with whom I was bonded years ago. We are standing 
side by side with my arm around his shoulder, in what I would consider a 
typical adult-child pose. My friend took one look at the picture and 
said, "You were lovers." To my surprise, he pointed out that there was 
absolutely no space between us. The boy had molded his body so that he
was in continuous contact with me from his ankle to where his shoulder 
fit into my armpit.  The author is classified as a violent felon, and so 
housed and treated, because the law defines sexual contact with a child 
less than eleven as a violent crime. The irony is profound. The child in 
question once had to go find his brother to help him remove a bothersome 
loose tooth because the author couldn't bear to cause him even momentary 
pain."

	Try as I might, I have been unable to find a single page on that 
NAMBLA website that speaks of "teenagers and adults."  All they ever 
talk about is "boys."
"



-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Tue Sep 19 00:19:10 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 03:19:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: GA-CAT-CA
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000918101918.009acae0@idiom.com>

>Steven Furlong wrote:
>> US. We have the 2nd Amendment, which keeps some of the police
>> state behavior at bay. I can't think, offhand, of any provision in the
>> US Constitution which would prevent City Hall from mandating a hair
>> sample from every pet.

As Tim pointed out, they're not trying to force every cat herder
to provide a sample of cat hairs.  They're trying to get a 
reasonably broad spectrum of cat fur samples (about 1600),
so they can find the genetic differences between them,
which will make it easier to use cat hair as evidence,
or at least easier to tell whether it's usable.
It may be that they'll find that it's easy to tell that there's
a 90% or 99% or 99.99% chance that the cat hair found on the suspect was 
from the victim's cat Snowball as opposed to the suspect's cat Mehitabel,
or it may be they'll find that one white cat hair looks about like another.
Most cats have multiple colors of hair, so color alone isn't always
indicative, though I can usually tell which cat the cat hairs on my
computer keyboard are from.

As far as mandating hair samples goes, not that they're doing that,
if they can require you to get a license to possess a dog,
they could include hair samples as part of the process;
they could also require licenses for cats.
Actual genetic testing of millions of cat hair samples would be
prohibitively expensive, but storing samples for analyzing if
there's a specific need for it wouldn't be as difficult.
But it's still a big expense and hassle, and it'd be much
simpler to get a warrant and collect samples from the
victims' and suspects' houses or cats when needed.






				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From md98-osa at nada.kth.se  Tue Sep 19 04:12:13 2000
From: md98-osa at nada.kth.se (Oskar Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:12:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C6FBFE.2901@attglobal.net>; from jlhoffm@attglobal.net on Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:52:54AM -0400
References: <200009181454.JAA02185@ecom1.wiu.edu> <39C6FBFE.2901@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20000919131321.C778@hobbex.localdomain>


Oh my! And when we are finished with this website, I guess it is about
time I burn my copy of "Death in Venice", right?

On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:52:54AM -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> And more from this "only TEENAGERS and adults" website...
> 
> 	"Recently, I showed a friend a photograph of myself and a 
> twelve-year-old boy with whom I was bonded years ago. We are standing 
> side by side with my arm around his shoulder, in what I would consider a 
> typical adult-child pose. My friend took one look at the picture and 
> said, "You were lovers." To my surprise, he pointed out that there was 
> absolutely no space between us. The boy had molded his body so that he
> was in continuous contact with me from his ankle to where his shoulder 
> fit into my armpit.  The author is classified as a violent felon, and so 
> housed and treated, because the law defines sexual contact with a child 
> less than eleven as a violent crime. The irony is profound. The child in 
> question once had to go find his brother to help him remove a bothersome 
> loose tooth because the author couldn't bear to cause him even momentary 
> pain."
> 
> 	Try as I might, I have been unable to find a single page on that 
> NAMBLA website that speaks of "teenagers and adults."  All they ever 
> talk about is "boys."
> "
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride
> 
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> 
> 
> 

-- 
'DeCSS would be fine. Where is it?'
'Here,' Montag touched his head.
'Ah,' Granger smiled and nodded.

Oskar Sandberg
md98-osa at nada.kth.se





From sameer at bpm.ai  Tue Sep 19 07:50:03 2000
From: sameer at bpm.ai (Sameer Parekh)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 07:50:03 -0700
Subject: CDR: bsp - RSA expiration party this Thursday (Free!)
Message-ID: 

	NOTE: The schedule has changed a bit because we recently learned that
the music at the Great American Music Hall can't go past 1:15.

==
	Celebrate with us as we celebrate the end of an era

	The Big RSA Patent Expiration Party
	A fundraiser for the Cryptorights Foundation
	(http://www.cryptorights.org/)

	produced by

	The Cryptorights Foundation (http://www.cryptorights.org/)

	musical production by

	BPM Consulting International (http://www.bpm.ai/)

	with special thanks to our Gold Sponsor

	Certicom (http://www.certicom.com/)

	also sponsored by

	VA Linux (http://www.valinux.com/)
	PAIP International (http://www.paip.net/)

	vital production help from

	Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org/)
	The Shmoo Group (http://www.shmoo.com/)
	The Secret Order of Former Primes (http://www.krev.org/mos/sofp/)
	The Cypherpunks (http://www.cryptorights.org/meetingpunks/)

	webcast by

	Technostate Underground Communications (http://www.technostate.com/)
	Virtual Recordings (http://www.virtualrecordings.com/)

	sound by

	Cloudfactory (http://www.cloudfactory.org/)

	The Great American Music Hall (http://www.musichallsf.com/)
	859 O'Farrell St. (between Polk & Larkin)
	21+
	Directions: http://www.musichallsf.com/info/directions/

	On the evening after the expiration of the patent
	21 September, 2000: 8PM-1:30AM

	By invitation only. In order to receive your invitation, send an
email with the # of people who plan to attend to
 Entrance is free, but the
Cryptorights Foundation will be accepting donations at the door.

	The evening begins promptly at 8PM with speakers from the
cryptography and human rights fields. The Great American Music Hall's
kitchen will be open until 10:30, so show up early, have dinner, and
listen to some fine speeches.

	Speakers for the evening will include:

	Mistress of Ceremonies: Cindy Cohn -- Legal Director, EFF
	Master of Ceremonies: John Gilmore -- Founder, EFF

	Dave Del Torto: Founder, CRF
	Cindy Cohn: Legal Director, EFF
	Ian Goldberg: Head Cypherpunk, Zero Knowledge Systems
	Matt Blaze: AT&T Research
	John Gilmore: Electronic Frontier Foundation

	CRF Steel Rose Awards Presented by
		Dave Del Torto

	CRF Lifetime Acheivement Award Presentation

	Keynote/Last Word: David Chaum

	Finally, at 9:30PM, the beats will drop and your evening will end
with the slamming techno sounds of the San Francisco underground!

Featuring DJs

Sameer (FnF, Cloudfactory, Urban Wasteland, Mad Hatter, trustcrew)
	Sameer has been active in the San Francisco underground throwing
parties since 1993. In 1999 with some of the crew he met through
Friends & Family he started throwing the legendary Urban Wasteland
parties in urban renegade locations in and around the East Bay. He
also picked up his first slab of wax in early 1999 and has been
playing sick pounding techno at parties around the world since then.
He is also involved in producing a weekly club in Oakland called the
Mad Hatter. Sameer is also known as the founder of C2Net, the company
that pioneered the international development of strong cryptography to
avoid United States export restrictions.

DJ Tektrix (Sister, Tetractys, Influence Recordings)
	Cary, a/k/a DJ Tektrix, moved to San Francisco in 1997. Since then
Tektrix has played alongside DJs such as Forest Green, Twerk, Terrac,
Plateshifter, Mike Sims, Darin Marshall, Sean Murray, J-Bird, Tom L-G,
2x4 with DJ Zeel, Sifu, HoneyB, and Ethan. In 1999 she threw a party
called Circle that took place at the Mother's Cookies Warehouse,
conducted weekly live internet and pirate radio broadcasts on Vulcan
Free Radio, and this year became a resident at Tetractys and Sister.
She has played at parties such as Static, Circle, Overworld, and
Topica.

Forest Green (Cloudfactory, Sister, XLR8R, technologix, FnF)
	Forest Green has been throwing down beats with the sickness for
several years. She has traveled both across the nation and into Canada
to bring the sick Techno sound to those in need. you might also know
her as one of the starring DJs from the hit underground movie Groove!

also featuring tracks produced by the EFF's very own:

Patrick Norager (Virtual Recordings, RadioEFF)
	Patrick is the Station Manager at Radio EFF, and a musical recording
artist in his own right. Patrick has produced some phat tracks
especially for this event, including phat rhythm tracks under audio
samples of famed investigative journalist Duncan Campbell talking to a
Cypherpunks meeting last year about his work on revealing the
existence of ECHELON. Be sure to listen for them during the music
portion of the evening.

==
Event Features

Food & Drinks:
	The Bar (this is a 21+ event) and Kitchen at the GAMH will be open
for your patronage, and there will be tables and chairs available on
the main floor and the balcony for anyone wishing to dine or drink
(please designate a driver!). There will be pretzels/nuts/etc for
those just wishing to nibble. Note that the GAMH has been very
supportive of this benefit, and have offered us a small refund of some
of the event fees if the bar and kitchen meet a minimum, so eating and
drinking are yet another way for you to benefit the CRF. Enjoy!

Sponsors:
	Our corporate sponsors will have some materials for attendees and
there may be some job recruiters, so if you need a job, bring a resume
and/or card.

CryptoRights Memberships:
	Please sign up to be a CRF member at our membership table! For a mere
$20, you get a one-year CRF membership and a cool t-shirt! Such a
deal!

Backrubs:
	Lile Elam of Art.net will be setting up a place for people to give
each other backrubs. RSA employees get preferential treatment!

==

"The Party Line"
A few comments from the CryptoRights Foundation on why we're having
this event...

The last of the Big Crypto Patents --the RSA algorithm-- will
officially expire and enter the Public Domain on 20 September 2000 (at
midnight local time), two decades after its original discovery and
after 17 years of fun with royalties.

Over the years, RSA Security Inc often made the algorithm free for use
by academics and non-profits, so it's fair to say that most of the
patent's impact over the years has been in the commercial sector, but
that has had an impact on public domain open source freeware since
many freeware crypto products are funded by commercial development.

On the other hand, as Whit Diffie and I both argued at a recent BayFF
meeting, the RSA patent may even have pushed people to form groups
like the Cypherpunks, the EFF and the CRF (a good thing for everyone),
as well as freeware products like PGP (via MIT). Nevertheless, once
it's entirely public property again, everyone in the US will soon be
able to use the RSA algorithm as freely as others have been able to
around the world for years. Whether you consider this passing to be as
symbolic as a press release, or a major milestone for the crypto
community, it could lead to brilliant new work by US security
professionals. Free to implement the raw mathematical algorithm in the
open so that their work is fully trustable, rather than using a
proprietary library designed by others, we should see new capabilities
brought forth soon that can benefit non-commercial users.

Many have been talking for some time about having a party to mark the
end of this era. Some of us also feel it's also time to look to the
future, and to discuss what we'll do over the next 20 years to let
bygones be bygones and focus on putting crypto to use in the pursuit
of loftier goals. We're not about complaining about the past, we're
about working on the future, and we know that everyone will need
secure, authenticated communications and data storage if the world is
to move closer to universal representative government.

The CryptoRights Foundation was founded on a few important principles.
One principle we believe in is that human rights workers should have
access to the strongest security tools as they enter dangerous areas
to document Crimes against Humanity. We also believe that security
researchers should have the Freedom to openly research and develop
security algorithms and tools without interference from external
organizations. Finally, we believe that both groups should cooperate
as much as possible to protect each others' freedoms.

This is why we thought the RSA patent expiration would be an ideal
opportunity to grow support for some of our current projects and to
get our message across. By bringing together all of the different
groups who were planning to have a party anyway, we can discuss common
visions. We hope you'll come and join all of the wonderful people and
organizations and generous sponsors who plan to celebrate the next
twenty years of working together!

   --Dave Del Torto
      founder, CryptoRights

Some Interesting URLs:


http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn10=US04405829
	(the RSA patent)
http://www.rsasecurity.com/rsalabs/faq/6-3-1.html
	(RSA's FAQ on the patent expiration)
http://www.rsasecurity.com/news/pr/000906-1.html
	(RSA's recent Press Release on the patent)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Very Special Thanks!
Lots of nice people contributed their efforts to this event, and we'd
like to thank a few of them here (if we left you out, please accept
our apologies!):

Tim Dierks, Jessica Watt & the human beings at Certicom -- Chris
DiBona, Rick Moen, Joseph Z & the human beings at VA Linux -- Ian
Goldberg of PAIP International -- Sameer Parekh of CryptoRights and
BPM International -- John Gilmore, Cindy Cohn, Patrick Norager,
Deborah Pierce, Katina Bishop & Stanton McCandlish at the EFF -- Paul
Holman, Kristen Tsolis & the Shmoo Group -- Rodney Thayer at
KnownSafe, Inc -- Len Sassaman at MelonTraffickers and Phil Zimmermann
for the new/improved Group Keysigning Protocol -- Bill Stewart, the
Meetingpunks Planners & the dozens of Cypherpunks for their many good
works over the years -- Randi M Chiffre & Alan J Lansing of the Secret
Order of Former Primes -- Gwen Hastings for the many person-hours of
time and talent on CRF technical projects -- Robert Guerra of
CryptoRights Canada for so many things we can't even list them here --
David Chaum for keynoting and bringing a secret to reveal -- Patrick
Ball at AAAS for inspiration and years of hard work in the trenches
all around the world -- and last but certainly not least, Tony
Caparelli, Andrea Crittenden & the whole GAMH Crew for having us into
their house.




From all at biosys.net  Tue Sep 19 05:04:01 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 08:04:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 10:54 09/19/2000 +0200, harald at f00.nu wrote:
>At 17:08 2000-09-18 -0400, you wrote:
>>That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses cannot send 
>>messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.
>
>I suppose you know why we don´t have that (the remailing issue). But I 
>kinda have another idea. Just start every subject line with eg -C-P- like 
>I did now, then it would be really easy to filter all the mail.

Last I checked the remailers allowed return mail to be sent through them, 
to the owner of the anonymous account.. isn't that the point?  It's easy 
enough to forge the email header that I can't believe they exist just to 
totally isolate anyone from the responses.. how would someone using a 
remailer even join the list (to receive messages) if that was the point?

The only part where I see this being useful is if somebody has some kind of 
anonymous announcement to make, where they don't intend to join the list.

I can't see the -C-P- subject as really being functional for sorting out 
spam mail because anyone new to the list won't know to put them in, nor the 
people I mentioned who might wish to make anonymous announcements.

The benefits of having the list open to unsubscribed postings seem far 
outweighed by the cost in time spent by everyone filtering messages and 
server resources that could be better spent running dnetc if nothing else 
;). It's just auxiliary that I've never seen an anonymous post to the list 
in the past when I subscribed, nor more recently since I 
resubscribed.  Undoubtedly some smartass will send an anonymous message to 
the list now just to say "see!" :P

There has to be some way around this that will still preserve anonymity, 
although one doesn't seem readily apparent unless the anonymous party 
subscribes under their pseudonym.

What about just creating another list (closed-posting) and then just 
allowing people to choose which to subscribe to?  Obviously, the 
open-posting list would be subscribed to the closed posting list, but not 
the other way around.. so at the risk of missing the massively important 
anonymous message that has yet to be sent, I could eliminate some of this spam?


-------signature file-------
PGP Key Fingerprint:
446B 7718 B219 9F1E 43DD  8E4A 6BE9 D739 CCC5 7FD7

"I don't think [Linux] will be very successful in the long run."
"My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite 
unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse."
-Ken Thompson, Interview May 1999.

http://www.freebsd.org
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve

http://www.rfnj.org
Radio Free New Jersey - 395 streams - 96kbps @ 44.1khz




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Tue Sep 19 06:42:03 2000
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 08:42:03 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C6F6F0.7B60@attglobal.net>
References: <200009181454.JAA02185@ecom1.wiu.edu>	
 <39C6E6B9.671F89E5@attglobal.net>
  <39C6F6F0.7B60@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

At 01:17 -0400 9/19/00, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>Kevin Elliott wrote:
>>
>>Read the stupid website if you don't believe me www.nambla.de.
>
>Here's a little something else I picked up from the same stupid website
>(you know...the one you say only promotes sex between teenagers and
>adults...)

My god!  Did you stay up all night to find this?  It seems quite 
clear to me that the vast majority of the website is focused on 
man/teen relationships.  Even so, if this were a website advocating 
man/baby relationships, especially those that included horses it 
would not affect my position one bit.  These people have the right 
for their information to be put into the public forum.
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Tue Sep 19 08:24:58 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:24:58 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
Message-ID: <3d1a7630d1d7144c556f15502b7f456e@anon.xg.nu>

Asymmetric whined: 

> Last I checked the remailers allowed return mail to be sent through them, 
> to the owner of the anonymous account.. isn't that the point?  It's easy 
> enough to forge the email header that I can't believe they exist just to 
> totally isolate anyone from the responses.. how would someone using a 
> remailer even join the list (to receive messages) if that was the point?


      Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know
that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless
shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the
subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck
off the list.





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 10:42:42 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:42:42 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919123703.00b71790@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919123703.00b71790@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 

At 12:43 PM -0400 9/19/00, Asymmetric wrote:
>At 10:24 09/19/2000 -0500, Anonymous Coward vomited:
>
>>       Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know
>>that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless
>>shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the
>>subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck
>>off the list.
>
>Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO 
>let you reply to the originator.  In case you're just a bit wet 
>behind the ears yet and hadn't heard, a while back there was a big 
>problem with one of them when the government ordered them to release 
>their database mapping the pseudonyms back to the originators.

You're way behind the times. Julf's system has been down for several years.

A few Cypherpunks-style remailers support reply blocks, but very few. 
And if a reply block of some sort is not in the original message, 
it's of course hopeless. There were no such reply blocks in the 
messages cited here.

>
>Clueless?  Far from it.
>
>How about this.. you shut your own ignorant ass before you make a 
>bigger fool of yourself than you already have, and try and fucking 
>consider for one second how you manage to sort through a hundred 
>fucking spam messages a day sent to this list,

1. For starters, there are not a "hundred" spam messages a day. At 
the peak, when some yahoo (TM, The Yahoo Corporation) subscribed the 
toad address to many other lists, there were perhaps 50 such messages 
a day for a few days.

2. Being that the toad.com address was not to be the long term list 
address (Gilmore told us to find other host machines), I divert all 
toad.com traffic into its own folder. Which I sometimes look at, 
scan, but sometimes just delete en masse. This cuts out about 80% of 
all commercial messages, as near as I can tell.

3. Determining which remaining messages are spam is relatively easy. 
"THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO BECOME WEALTHY!" and "Printer Supplies CHEAP" 
sort of gives it all away.

4. Filters.

5. There are compelling reasons to allow non-subscribed addresses.

These points have been covered in hundreds of posts in dozens of 
threads over several years. Consult the archives.

I've yet to see "Asymmetric " post any meaningful or 
interesting articles, so I expect he's just another clueless newbie 
who's stumbled onto our list and now wants to remake it. Typical.


>and yet you apparently don't have the mental facility to delete my 
>own messages if you find them so useless.  It's pretty simple for 
>you to add me to the killfile, why don't you do it?  I could 
>personally give a shit if you never read anything more I have to 
>say.  Have fun filtering the spam.


Your wish is my command.

* P L O N K *


--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From sameer at bpm.ai  Tue Sep 19 10:42:45 2000
From: sameer at bpm.ai (Sameer Parekh)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:42:45 -0700
Subject: CDR: rsa party correction
Message-ID: 

I made an error in the RSA party announcement. You do not need to wait
until you receive an invitation after sending in your RSVP. Just send
in your RSVP and print out the announcement as your invitation.

thanks,
-s




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Sep 19 07:46:43 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:46:43 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, dmolnar wrote:

>
>
>especially software sold to us mass market consumers.  I expect markets
>exist in which software has to be held to an extremely high standard of
>reliability (e.g. Space Shuttle, financial markets, health software,
>embedded systems spring to mind). How are liability issues dealt with in
>those fields, and how did they come to be that way? would the same thing
>happen with crypto and security software? 


Client pays through the nose and software supplier accepts liability 
for software failure. If you want a software vendor to guarantee 
anything beyond the occupation of disk space, you're usually looking 
at five and six digit ($USD) prices for applications.  Since that's 
not usually a consumer price point, this is called "Enterprise" 
software to distinguish it from the regular kind.  It also usually 
comes with a consulting contract so that the supplier can make sure 
you don't install it wrong (say, having someone without admin priveleges 
run the installer and then suing for non-performance because it didn't 
update the registry) or on a "Pseudo-compatible" Operating system 
(as software written for AIX will sometimes run on Solaris, for example, 
but may crash at unexpected moments)....

Most Enterprise software is written for Unix boxes.  That which is not 
written for Unix boxes is written for NT boxes.  Most enterprise 
software features "failover" capabilities, meaning it runs on a 
cluster or network of machines instead of a single box and if the 
particular box you're talking to crashes, your session will be handed 
off to another in such a way that you never notice. 

There are also marketing drones who apply the term "Enterprise 
Software" to whatever ordinary shrink-wrap software they're selling, 
because they don't know any better. (*sigh*)  If it's priced less 
than $50K, just ignore them. 

				Bear








From harald at f00.nu  Tue Sep 19 01:54:07 2000
From: harald at f00.nu (harald at f00.nu)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:54:07 +0200
Subject: CDR: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu>

At 17:08 2000-09-18 -0400, you wrote:
>That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses cannot send 
>messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.

I suppose you know why we don´t have that (the remailing issue). But I 
kinda have another idea. Just start every subject line with eg -C-P- like I 
did now, then it would be really easy to filter all the mail.

//Harald





From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep 19 08:01:04 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:01:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: Preliminary Outline of a Proposed Micromint Specification
Message-ID: 


--- begin forwarded text



From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Sep 19 08:02:45 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:02:45 -0400
Subject: CDR: Excerpt of Mark Summerfield's 'Letter from 2020'
Message-ID: 


http://www.osOpinion.com/Opinions/MarkSummerfield/MarkSummerfield3.html
[...]

I try to remember what it was like when I was a kid but it's
really difficult; the world has changed so much since
then. I found a paper book the other day that described the
rise and fall of something called the "Internet". It started
out with people putting up links on computers so that they
could follow the link and read things on other computers for
free. After it got to be popular, companies started to
create machines with lots of links that you could search to
find things of interest. But someone put up a link to
something illegal and got sued and had their machine shut
down. This happened a few times and people started to take
the links off their machines. The search engine companies
were the first to go and without them, you couldn't find
anything. Eventually no one put up links anymore because the
legal risk was too great. The important thing is that it
reduced terrorism. I'm not sure how it could have worked
anyway. Anything I write on my computer or any music I
create gets stored by Word.NET and Music.NET in encrypted
formats to protect my privacy. No one but me, Microsoft.NET
and the National Corporation can read or hear my stuff even
if they could link to it.

I shouldn't admit it, but sometimes I go to certain places
and speak to the subversives. I know its wrong but their
warped views on things have some kind of morbid
fascination. For example, I spoke to someone who claimed to
be a historian the other day. She had courage all right,
admitting to an illegal activity like that. I hadn't
understood why it was illegal until she explained. History,
she told me, gives you context. You can compare today with
some time in the past; ask questions like, "are people
better off", "look at the different forms of doing
business", "compare corporate records or the rights of
citizens" (I think she meant employees).
[...]




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep 19 08:07:01 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:07:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000919075944.0083bea0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 02:42 PM 9/18/00 -0400, dmolnar wrote:
>Here's another link on licensing of software engineers, this time from the
>
>it seems that cryptographic/security software, if we ever get the
>liability structure whose lack is often pointed out by Schneier ("we don't
>have good security because we don't have to"), may be a prime target for
>such licensing.
>
>-david

The notion of licensing programmers as competent in some field
has come up before, e.g., in safety-critical systems.  The idea
being that when you're sued because your radiation therapy machine 
fried a few people, you (the manufacturer) can show 'due diligance'
aka best practices.

Using DES, then 3DES, then AES is the same
cover-your-ass protection.

Of course, a firm is still responsible for its bridges that
fail, even if it used state-licensed engineers and reviewers
and followed standard practices.  But the penaltie$ are less if you snag
engineers qualified to work in the domain.

.....

I believe in Texas or some other state you can't call yourself
an engineer since that is a legal term.









  








From bear at sonic.net  Tue Sep 19 08:20:33 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:20:33 -0400
Subject: CDR: Can we PLEASE discuss free speech instead of content?
In-Reply-To: <20000919131321.C778@hobbex.localdomain>
Message-ID: 


>On Tue, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:52:54AM -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>> And more from this "only TEENAGERS and adults" website...



Ms. Hoffman, please stop posting this crap to the Cypherpunks 
list.  It won't help.  It is damned insulting to everyone here 
that you seem to expect us to confuse content with context. 

Although you seem to demand it, and although several people 
have allowed themselves to get dragged down to that level 
by your hyperbole and your refusal to talk about anything 
else, the content of the site is utterly irrelevant to this 
discussion.

Please understand, the content of the site is NOT what the 
argument is about, and you constantly dragging it back into 
the discussion is unproductive, not to mention infuriating. 

The argument is about context -- whether it is tolerable to 
have laws that constitute prior restraint of speech.  It is 
NOT.  The content of the site is utterly irrelevant to this 
question, and posting chunks of it as though it were is only 
insulting the other subscribers of this list.

Speech MUST remain free, even if the actions it advocates are 
both odious and illegal.  Speech is not action.  Suppressing 
speech on the basis of content, as though it were action, is 
intolerable.  Content is not Context. 

				Bear
---
"And even though I say 'Fuck you', enthusiastically 
enough, it's not as though I ever would, not in a 
million years... Well, maybe if I was stoned off my 
ass, but that doesn't count...'

			Hunter S Thompson






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 19 11:25:53 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:25:53 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Re: would it be so much to ask..
Message-ID: <39C7AFB1.3135477B@lsil.com>

Um, if there's any hint of a trail back to the sender where's the
anonymity?

Trust the recipient to use a remailer chain for the return path. or not.
Include the return mail address in the body if you choose to. Isn't that
what anonymity is about? Placing the choice for the disclosure of
information and identity in the user's hands and nobody else's?




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 11:50:26 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:50:26 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Where are the crypt source blackboards?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 1:08 PM -0500 9/19/00, Gary Jeffers wrote:
>

>
>   I know that in Amerika it may or may not be illegal to post crypt
>source code, but I would think that foreign members would post crypt
>code. So, where is it? For Amerikans, they should at least be posting
>links to source code "blackboards" in order to develope crypt code. I
>don't even find that.

You were a twit four and five years ago when you were last on this 
list, you were probably a twit during the blessed years your presence 
did not grace this list, and you're still a twit after your return.

>
>Yours Truly,
>Gary Jeffers
>
>BEAT STATE!!!!
>

Nitwit.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Tue Sep 19 08:59:13 2000
From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 11:59:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009181454.JAA02185@ecom1.wiu.edu>
Message-ID: 

>would not affect my position one bit.  These people have the right
>for their information to be put into the public forum.

One small correction Kevin, they have the right to put their information
into their own public forum.  I don't have to allow them to put their
information in my newspaper or allow their bits to travel across sections
of the Internet that I own.  I don't have to make it easy for them to
spread their nonsense.






From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Tue Sep 19 09:13:52 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:13:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <39C790B7.E080E443@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

     This guy apparantly can't read.  He certainly didn't read Choate's
reply that there were moderated cp lists, and gave him the url to access
them. Nor did he read the other replies telling him to check the
archives.  And he is totally, absolutely clueless about remailers,
confusing them with nym servers.
             Must be a troll.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS     Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System        Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840  hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us






From auto95711 at hushmail.com  Tue Sep 19 13:32:00 2000
From: auto95711 at hushmail.com (auto95711 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:32:00 -0800 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Please ignore this email- this is only test.
Message-ID: <200009191637.JAA27323@user3.hushmail.com>

----- Begin Hush Signed Message from auto95711 at hushmail.com -----

The dog barks at midnight
The moon is full
The stick is brown
So is the toilet paper

----- Begin Hush Signature v1.3 -----
Hq+ukSgS7nN5At5dNsW7djRTS4xIVJYSVQCaJz8IagYPoqFpf6v+53aNnBZkgWQylppe
A4DBmdguSeI3oDIDauIyqlnC6VZZtdMbh0ZE3zv1jefvdB4Mo5CxCj+YQEO2KE+qXEsj
yEWUdvA0SYnU9q98ivzE3WzwrFrTCALk6udwXwEdxaLDsxCcaKT4ATxQ6urDuIKvDncw
998oXQr9HvFZLx2r3KxeLz9319tRxct19yD+Da0b0+ng3a/L9vY+sX986SwsfvkpcxwD
TMZMXWpPTgTOGhAMs1RQW7sP6ON+oVqVlPWAkwL7R9nstNxXJN9ZDSopJI/oxS894zA+
YAw7+ghXyczpqjAuuK32AD7xNwKB4WuIlgefDqCd+dBDFmAJN4DpHlMpms47ZowundXK
5yQvn3JrYhWvmhb6Ffd/wRTmv4WwlyVXXHhDSYhs0jAQrbAX3SGE2rxvBi5Y3ri7pulZ
PWYe+eoaa2L+/HbmjuR4dx+jvZHRwGpv9cOSiirj2ss+

----- End Hush Signature v1.3 -----

From k-elliott at WIU.EDU  Tue Sep 19 10:33:55 2000
From: k-elliott at WIU.EDU (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:33:55 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919123703.00b71790@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919123703.00b71790@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 

At 12:43 -0400 9/19/00, Asymmetric wrote:
>Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO 
>let you reply to the originator.  In case you're just a bit wet 
>behind the ears yet and hadn't heard, a while back there was a big 
>problem with one of them when the government ordered them to release 
>their database mapping the pseudonyms back to the originators.

Oh?  Name one please.  After all, it would sort of defeat the 
purpose...  As to your comment about having a database mapping 
pseudonyms to names, if one of those exists for a given remailer, 
it's not an ananymous remailer.  I certainly hope none of the 
remailers in use by users here do such things.
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From all at biosys.net  Tue Sep 19 09:43:21 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:43:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <3d1a7630d1d7144c556f15502b7f456e@anon.xg.nu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919123703.00b71790@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 10:24 09/19/2000 -0500, Anonymous Coward vomited:


>       Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know
>that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless
>shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the
>subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck
>off the list.

Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO let you 
reply to the originator.  In case you're just a bit wet behind the ears yet 
and hadn't heard, a while back there was a big problem with one of them 
when the government ordered them to release their database mapping the 
pseudonyms back to the originators.

Clueless?  Far from it.

How about this.. you shut your own ignorant ass before you make a bigger 
fool of yourself than you already have, and try and fucking consider for 
one second how you manage to sort through a hundred fucking spam messages a 
day sent to this list, and yet you apparently don't have the mental 
facility to delete my own messages if you find them so useless.  It's 
pretty simple for you to add me to the killfile, why don't you do it?  I 
could personally give a shit if you never read anything more I have to 
say.  Have fun filtering the spam.


-------signature file-------
PGP Key Fingerprint:
446B 7718 B219 9F1E 43DD  8E4A 6BE9 D739 CCC5 7FD7

"I don't think [Linux] will be very successful in the long run."
"My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite 
unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse."
-Ken Thompson, Interview May 1999.

http://www.freebsd.org
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve

http://www.rfnj.org
Radio Free New Jersey - 395 streams - 96kbps @ 44.1khz




From k-elliott at WIU.EDU  Tue Sep 19 10:55:53 2000
From: k-elliott at WIU.EDU (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:55:53 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 13:43 -0400 9/19/00, BMM wrote:
>Perhaps the penet remailer, which shut down in 9/96, is the one being
>referred to. See http://www.penet.fi.  If memory serves, it was by far the
>most popular (pseudo|ano)nymous of the time.

And it was because of that very database it was shutdown.  Even so 
Asymmetric needs to get a clue and quit whining about issue that have 
been debated here more time that I can count (though I have been 
considering running some statistical analysis against the archives to 
see what kind of pattern there is to these silly posts-  I'm thinking 
there as sort of odd wave pattern to it with the peaks every 2 months)
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From jimmy.hornestedt at chello.se  Tue Sep 19 04:05:45 2000
From: jimmy.hornestedt at chello.se (Jimmy Hornestedt)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:05:45 +0200
Subject: CDR: Question...
Message-ID: <000a01c02229$8f5527a0$4882c8d5@chello.se>

Hello!

I was wondering, did you ever get an answer?
I also have the surfboard 3100 and would like the same thing.

thanks

Jimmy Hornestedt


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have a SB3100 cable modem and would like to know if there is anyone
that know how to or has the program to access the cable modem?
I would like to see if there is a way to speed my modem up a bit..
thanks
Mark Galliart


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From jeffersgary at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 19 11:08:15 2000
From: jeffersgary at hotmail.com (Gary Jeffers)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:08:15 CDT
Subject: CDR: Where are the crypt source blackboards?
Message-ID: 

   Where are the crypt source blackboards?

Fellow Cypherpunks,

   It occurs to me that in mailing lists that concern crypt programming
there should be posts with programs and large code fragments of crypt
source lines. I don't remember seeing any such on Cypherpunks and the
little I've checked out on Coderpunks I haven't seen any there either.

   I know that in Amerika it may or may not be illegal to post crypt
source code, but I would think that foreign members would post crypt
code. So, where is it? For Amerikans, they should at least be posting
links to source code "blackboards" in order to develope crypt code. I
don't even find that.

   To what degree is the prohibition of posting crypt source code having
a negative impact on crypt developement and deployment?

Yours Truly,
Gary Jeffers

BEAT STATE!!!!

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 13:36:52 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:36:52 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90@f00.nu>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90@f00.nu>
Message-ID: 

At 5:38 PM +0200 9/19/00, harald at f00.nu wrote:
>At 08:04 2000-09-19 -0400, you wrote:
>>I can't see the -C-P- subject as really being functional for 
>>sorting out spam mail because anyone new to the list won't know to 
>>put them in, nor the people I mentioned who might wish to make 
>>anonymous announcements.
>
>The "-C-P-" think should of course be found in some kind of faq 
>and/or in the subscribtion welcome message.
>
>>What about just creating another list (closed-posting) and then 
>>just allowing people to choose which to subscribe to?  Obviously, 
>>the open-posting list would be subscribed to the closed posting 
>>list, but not the other way around.. so at the risk of missing the 
>>massively important anonymous message that has yet to be sent, I 
>>could eliminate some of this spam?
>
>That might be a better idea yes. :)
>Some nice person might even forward "serious" remailed e-mails to 
>the closed list (since they don´t seem to be too frequent).

You fucking idiots who want "closed" lists have several choices:

1. Those who came before you _already_ created closed lists. 
"Cryptography" and "Coderpunks," for example. Join _those_ lists.

2. Subscribe to one of the filtered lists, e.g., Ray Arachelian's list.

3. Create your own lists.


BTW, if you are posting to the "toad.com" address, as you are, you 
are too ignorant to be giving us advice on how the list ought to be 
structured.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 19 10:36:54 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:36:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: RIAA seizures
Message-ID: <7db22704af8837abb0841b0813575bd0@melontraffickers.com>


Funny, the article doesnt say
how the pirates subverted the
encryption in order to make copies.

Oh, you dont have to.

Listening, Kaplan?



RIAA Behind More "CD-Pirate" Busts 09-18-00

GARLAND, TEXAS, U.S.A., 2000 SEP 18 (NB) -- By Steven Bonisteel, Newsbytes.

The music industry announced what it called more successful raids on businesses alleged to be counterfeiting
music compact discs using personal computers and CD-R technology. 

The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) said today that it pointed authorities in Texas to two
businesses in Garland where CD-R equipment for burning CDs was found along with piles of allegedly
completed counterfeits. 

The RIAA said searches at both locations were executed Sept. 14. A month ago, the RIAA announced similar
raids on the home of a New York man and at a residence and a business in Phoenix. In those raids, thousands
of apparently copied music CDs were found. 

This month, the RIAA said, members of the Texas Department of Public Safety, tipped off by the RIAAs
anti-piracy unit in Texas, executed a search warrant at Garland retail store Kode Red and seized three CD-R
towers containing a total of 12 eight-speed CD-R burners 898 allegedly pirated labels and 373 allegedly pirated
CDs. 

The RIAA said the 12 CD-R burners had the capability to produce up to 720 CD-Rs every eight hours. At that
rate, it said, the value of the output would be some $4 million a year. 
 
http://sg.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/technology/article.html?s=singapore/headlines/000919/technology/newsbytes/RIAA_Behind_More__CD-Pirate__Busts_09-18-00_.html





From bmm at minder.net  Tue Sep 19 10:43:50 2000
From: bmm at minder.net (BMM)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:43:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Perhaps the penet remailer, which shut down in 9/96, is the one being
referred to. See http://www.penet.fi.  If memory serves, it was by far the
most popular (pseudo|ano)nymous of the time.

-Brian

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote:

> At 12:43 -0400 9/19/00, Asymmetric wrote:
> >Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO 
> >let you reply to the originator.  In case you're just a bit wet 
> >behind the ears yet and hadn't heard, a while back there was a big 
> >problem with one of them when the government ordered them to release 
> >their database mapping the pseudonyms back to the originators.
> 
> Oh?  Name one please.  After all, it would sort of defeat the 
> purpose...  As to your comment about having a database mapping 
> pseudonyms to names, if one of those exists for a given remailer, 
> it's not an ananymous remailer.  I certainly hope none of the 
> remailers in use by users here do such things.

--
bmm at minder.net                                                1024/8C7C4DE9




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 19 10:44:26 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:44:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: Qualcomm CEO loses laptop
Message-ID: <27ae0e79dca6db818bccb15dc380e055@melontraffickers.com>

"contained proprietary
information that could be valuable to foreign governments."

Kinda interesting statement about a
telecoms machine.  Foreign
govts?




PC with Corporate Secrets
           Disappears
           Qualcomm Chiefs Laptop Taken from Podium 

           Sept. 18, 2000 

                       IRVINE, Calif. (AP) -- The personal portable
                       computer of Qualcomm Inc.s chief executive
                       officer, which apparently contained valuable
                       company secrets, disappeared from a hotel
                       conference room moments after he addressed a
                       national business journalists meeting. 

                       Irwin Jacobs left the computer unattended on a
                       podium or an adjoining table in the Hyatt
                       Regency-Irvine ballroom on Saturday for 15-20
                       minutes when he stepped down to talk to a small
                       group after addressing about 90 members of the
                       Society of American Business Editors and
                       Writers. 

           Proprietary information 

           Jacobs told people at the conference that the IBM laptop, which he
           had used for a slide show-type presentation focusing on Qualcomms
           wireless telecommunications technology, contained proprietary
           information that could be valuable to foreign governments. 

           Qualcomm is a leader in wireless technology -- a boom market of the
           burgeoning telecommunications revolution -- with $3.9 billion in
           revenues last year. It designs and produces chips for wireless
           communications devices and holds hundreds of patents whose
           royalties provide it with the bulk of its earnings. 

           SABEWs president Byron Calame, deputy managing editor of The
           Wall Street Journal, expressed sorrow at the event and noted that
           people with access to the area "included registrants, exhibitors and
           guests at our conference, hotel staff and perhaps others." 

           Very disturbing 

           "Its very disturbing to him," company spokeswoman Christine
           Trimble said of the 66-year-old Jacobs, Qualcomms chairman and
           founder. Jacobs, whose company is based in nearby San Diego, had
           driven to the conference with his wife and without any security. 

           Trimble would not discuss details of the apparent theft except to
           confirm that the laptop was used by Jacobs for "business purposes."
           Company officials would not say whether Jacobs had contacted the
           FBI. 

           "The FBI was never called that were aware of," said Irvine police
           desk officer Sgt. Tim Smith. "We took it as a straight laptop theft,
           which is pretty typical for a hotel." 

           However, several attendees at the SABEW conference said they
           noticed three unattended laptops shortly after the theft as they
           passed through an adjoining exhibitors room. 

           "It doesnt seem (Jacobs laptop) would be the obvious choice if the
           individual was looking for an easy target," noted Shawn Abbott, chief
           technical officer of computer security company Rainbow
           Technologies. 

           Just 30 feet away 

           Jacobs and about a half-dozen journalists were no further than 30
           feet from his laptop when it disappeared. More than 100 reporters
           and editors from across the nation attended SABEWs 4th annual
           technology conference, a two-day event that ended Sunday. 

           Trimble said the laptop, valued at about $4,000, was password
           protected and the data was backed up on a computer at Qualcomms
           San Diego headquarters. However, password-protected computers
           running Windows operating systems, as Jacobs was, can be easily
           be broken into. 

           The level of security on Jacobs laptop could not be determined. 

           Qualcomm is the worlds leading developer of a technology known as
           CDMA, which seems to have won the global battle to become the
           standard technology for making high-speed Internet access available
           on wireless devices. 

           Wireless technologies 

           Those so-called third-generation wireless technologies are expected
           to connect the Internet to handhelds and other devices in the next
           few years -- initially in the Far East and Europe. Those markets are
           considered to have a potential value in the tens of billions of dollars,
           as everything from cars to airplanes are equipped with broadband
           wireless connections. 

           If security on Jacobs laptop was limited only to password protection
           _ rather than a more advanced encryption scheme -- "its extremely
           unlikely that it will take any more than removing the hard drive and
           hooking it up to another computer to read all the files," Abbott said. 
http://www.apbnews.com/newscenter/breakingnews/2000/09/18/qualcomm0918_01.html





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 13:47:01 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:47:01 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 

(P.S. Lose the toad.com address. Get a clue. Or, since you appear to 
be a luser, "loose the toad.com address.")


At 8:04 AM -0400 9/19/00, Asymmetric wrote:
>At 10:54 09/19/2000 +0200, harald at f00.nu wrote:
>>At 17:08 2000-09-18 -0400, you wrote:
>>>That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses 
>>>cannot send messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.
>>
>>I suppose you know why we don´t have that (the remailing issue). 
>>But I kinda have another idea. Just start every subject line with 
>>eg -C-P- like I did now, then it would be really easy to filter all 
>>the mail.
>
>Last I checked the remailers allowed return mail to be sent through 
>them, to the owner of the anonymous account.. isn't that the point? 
>It's easy enough to forge the email header that I can't believe they 
>exist just to totally isolate anyone from the responses.. how would 
>someone using a remailer even join the list (to receive messages) if 
>that was the point?

And how many anonymously-remailed messages to this list have ever, in 
all the years of this list, included reply blocks? No more than a 
small handful, as I recall seeing.

"the remailers allowed return mail" is terribly misleading, and 
probably arises out of ignorance of what reply blocks are and why 
they are so difficult to use, rather than imprecision in language.

As for "I can't believe they exist just to totally isolate...", with 
your claim that forging headers is apparently a good alternative, you 
are naive and ignorant.

Do you think that the anonymous poster who posted the RC4 code here 
several years ago should simply have done some kind of Port 25 hack 
instead of using a remailer?

Do you think that the folks who distributed the CoS NOTS files should 
have used header forgings instead of using Cypherpunks remailers? (As 
the educated amongst you know, the CoS efforts to force Julf to 
disclose the mapping ultimately failed to produce the source when 
Julf's mapping only pointed back to a Cypherpunks-type remailer being 
run at that time by C2Net.)

>
>What about just creating another list (closed-posting) and then just 
>allowing people to choose which to subscribe to?  Obviously, the 
>open-posting list would be subscribed to the closed posting list, 
>but not the other way around.. so at the risk of missing the 
>massively important anonymous message that has yet to be sent, I 
>could eliminate some of this spam?

If you don't get it, you have no business trying to architect the 
structure of our list.

--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Tue Sep 19 10:50:32 2000
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:50:32 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009181454.JAA02185@ecom1.wiu.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 11:59 -0400 9/19/00, Matt Elliott wrote:
>>would not affect my position one bit.  These people have the right
>>for their information to be put into the public forum.
>
>One small correction Kevin, they have the right to put their information
>into their own public forum.  I don't have to allow them to put their
>information in my newspaper or allow their bits to travel across sections
>of the Internet that I own.  I don't have to make it easy for them to
>spread their nonsense.

Oh yeah, now things get interesting.  The issue of allowing such 
things in your newspaper is a problem you have with your newspaper, 
not them.  If you don't like what your newspaper publishes complain 
to it, not to NAMBLA.  The ISP issue is similar.  I don't have a 
problem with an organization controlling the material it carries, BUT 
I have a serious problem with organizations-
A. Not making the fact they do such things VERY clear in their user 
agreement, etc.
OR
B. Changing said agreement depending on which way the wind blows.

Their is also a legal issue here that is worth mentioning.  An ISP 
deciding to censor/filter traffic based on content potentially opens 
that ISP to serious legal risk.  As long as an ISP acts as a simple 
bit shuffler their liability for user activity is tiny.  They enjoy 
the same status as the telephone company (that of a common carrier) 
and thus have no responsibility for the traffic they carry.  The 
moment the step over that line and begin to monitor said traffic they 
can no longer claim to be a common carrier.  I believe their was an 
interesting case several years ago where an ISP in the Eastern US was 
held liable for pornographic material stored on one of there news 
servers, specifically because they had taken action in the past to 
remove such material.

Regardless however, all such activities to restrict traffic ought to 
be done by contacting the individuals and/or organizations 
responsible (either carriers or originators), not by running to big 
momma government and whining about how such talk disturbs you.  Using 
the government and specifically the judiciary as a big cudgel to beat 
people who's opinion you disagree with into submission is morally 
reprehensible.  People who abuse government in such a way ought to be 
shunned with the same venom typically reserved for pedophiles and 
persons of similar ilk.
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas





From stempleton at ea.com  Tue Sep 19 11:09:49 2000
From: stempleton at ea.com (Templeton, Stuart)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:09:49 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Qualcomm CEO loses laptop
Message-ID: 

wtf was the "Qualcomm Chief" doing walking around with secrets of that
severity, much less on a laptop, on a podium in a HOTEL CONFERENCE ROOM
??????????

486 laptops dissappear quicker than that at the university here.


lol
-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of A. Melon
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 1:44 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: Qualcomm CEO loses laptop



"contained proprietary
information that could be valuable to foreign governments."

Kinda interesting statement about a
telecoms machine.  Foreign
govts?




PC with Corporate Secrets
           Disappears
           Qualcomm Chiefs Laptop Taken from Podium 

           Sept. 18, 2000 

                       IRVINE, Calif. (AP) -- The personal portable
                       computer of Qualcomm Inc.s chief executive
                       officer, which apparently contained valuable
                       company secrets, disappeared from a hotel
                       conference room moments after he addressed a
                       national business journalists meeting. 

                       Irwin Jacobs left the computer unattended on a
                       podium or an adjoining table in the Hyatt
                       Regency-Irvine ballroom on Saturday for 15-20
                       minutes when he stepped down to talk to a small
                       group after addressing about 90 members of the
                       Society of American Business Editors and
                       Writers. 

           Proprietary information 

           Jacobs told people at the conference that the IBM laptop, which
he
           had used for a slide show-type presentation focusing on Qualcomms
           wireless telecommunications technology, contained proprietary
           information that could be valuable to foreign governments. 

           Qualcomm is a leader in wireless technology -- a boom market of
the
           burgeoning telecommunications revolution -- with $3.9 billion in
           revenues last year. It designs and produces chips for wireless
           communications devices and holds hundreds of patents whose
           royalties provide it with the bulk of its earnings. 

           SABEWs president Byron Calame, deputy managing editor of The
           Wall Street Journal, expressed sorrow at the event and noted that
           people with access to the area "included registrants, exhibitors
and
           guests at our conference, hotel staff and perhaps others." 

           Very disturbing 

           "Its very disturbing to him," company spokeswoman Christine
           Trimble said of the 66-year-old Jacobs, Qualcomms chairman and
           founder. Jacobs, whose company is based in nearby San Diego, had
           driven to the conference with his wife and without any security. 

           Trimble would not discuss details of the apparent theft except to
           confirm that the laptop was used by Jacobs for "business
purposes."
           Company officials would not say whether Jacobs had contacted the
           FBI. 

           "The FBI was never called that were aware of," said Irvine police
           desk officer Sgt. Tim Smith. "We took it as a straight laptop
theft,
           which is pretty typical for a hotel." 

           However, several attendees at the SABEW conference said they
           noticed three unattended laptops shortly after the theft as they
           passed through an adjoining exhibitors room. 

           "It doesnt seem (Jacobs laptop) would be the obvious choice if
the
           individual was looking for an easy target," noted Shawn Abbott,
chief
           technical officer of computer security company Rainbow
           Technologies. 

           Just 30 feet away 

           Jacobs and about a half-dozen journalists were no further than 30
           feet from his laptop when it disappeared. More than 100 reporters
           and editors from across the nation attended SABEWs 4th annual
           technology conference, a two-day event that ended Sunday. 

           Trimble said the laptop, valued at about $4,000, was password
           protected and the data was backed up on a computer at Qualcomms
           San Diego headquarters. However, password-protected computers
           running Windows operating systems, as Jacobs was, can be easily
           be broken into. 

           The level of security on Jacobs laptop could not be determined. 

           Qualcomm is the worlds leading developer of a technology known as
           CDMA, which seems to have won the global battle to become the
           standard technology for making high-speed Internet access
available
           on wireless devices. 

           Wireless technologies 

           Those so-called third-generation wireless technologies are
expected
           to connect the Internet to handhelds and other devices in the
next
           few years -- initially in the Far East and Europe. Those markets
are
           considered to have a potential value in the tens of billions of
dollars,
           as everything from cars to airplanes are equipped with broadband
           wireless connections. 

           If security on Jacobs laptop was limited only to password
protection
           _ rather than a more advanced encryption scheme -- "its extremely
           unlikely that it will take any more than removing the hard drive
and
           hooking it up to another computer to read all the files," Abbott
said. 
http://www.apbnews.com/newscenter/breakingnews/2000/09/18/qualcomm0918_01.ht
ml






From auto87114 at hushmail.com  Tue Sep 19 12:23:33 2000
From: auto87114 at hushmail.com (auto87114 at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:23:33 -0500
Subject: CDR: HoosierTimes.com: "State police suspend access to data base "
Message-ID: <200009191923.OAA20279@www.hoosiertimes.com>

This message has been sent to you by auto87114 at hushmail.com      
An article of interest can be viewed at the following web address:
    http://www.hoosiertimes.com/stories/2000/09/18/news.000918_HT_A5_PM015454.sto 

(Note some email programs may 'wrap' the URL onto two lines: it should actually be all on one line, ending with the .sto)

 This message brought to you by HoosierTimes.com,  http://www.hoosiertimes.com/ 




From frissell at panix.com  Tue Sep 19 11:24:31 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:24:31 -0400
Subject: CDR: No New World Coffee Disparagement Site TRO
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000919111427.0474f2e0@popserver.panix.com>

Last Friday in Union County (NJ) Superior Court in Elizabeth, the operator 
of www.NewWorldCoffeeFraud.com won a solo victory against three sets of 
lawyers when he convinced the judge not to issue a TRO against his 
corporate disparagement site.

New World Coffee a NJ-based coffee and bagel franchise company was 
represented by
PIPER MARBURY RUDNICK & WOLFE LLP (the Washington DC firm that represented 
AOL in its anti-spam litigation), RABINOWITZ, TRENK, LUBETKIN & TULLY (a NJ 
firm), as well as New World Coffee's General Counsel.

The company made a series of claims in seeking a TRO including breach of 
franchise agreement by franchisees who are supposedly  saying unkind things 
about it.  It is also claiming that the domain names newworldcoffefraud.com 
and newworldfraud.com are likely to confuse innocent surfers looking for 
coffee (dilution).  There was also and Anti-Cybersquatting Act claim.

The judge didn't seem too concerned about the contract claims but was 
initially inclined to block the defendant's use of domain names for 
dilution and cybersquatting. But once the defendant presented a whois list 
of the hundreds of domain names containing the words "new world" (New World 
Coffee does not control newworld.com, .org, or .net) she dismissed the 
cybersquatting argument.  Dilution was thrown out after the defendant 
argued that all of the cited cases involved domain names that were 
initially confusing versions of trademarks (jews-for-jesus.org, 
plannedparenthood.org, etc.)  The judge agreed that even the most casual 
viewer would not confuse newworldcoffeefraud.com with the trademark 
holder's site.

The underlying case is still active and plaintiffs are seeking early 
discovery to see if they can uncover the defendant's sources.  He is 
defending using the NJ shield law for journalists.

Any New Jersey lawyers interested in the case?

DCF

----
"Di-electrical materialism dooms the Ancien Regime, the Treaty of 
Westphalia, the Communist International, the whole shooting match"
-------------- next part --------------
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From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 11:44:31 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:44:31 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Qualcomm CEO loses laptop
In-Reply-To: <27ae0e79dca6db818bccb15dc380e055@melontraffickers.com>
References: <27ae0e79dca6db818bccb15dc380e055@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:44 PM -0400 9/19/00, A. Melon wrote:
>"contained proprietary
>information that could be valuable to foreign governments."
>
>Kinda interesting statement about a
>telecoms machine.  Foreign
>govts?
>


You apparently don't follow the news very closely. Qualcomm is in the 
midst of negotiations for a next-gen system for China, amongst others.


--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Tue Sep 19 13:50:22 2000
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:50:22 -0600
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
Message-ID: <913c1eb619b261ddaf2bbb29f62d3871@noisebox.remailer.org>

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Asymmetric wrote:

> At 10:54 09/19/2000 +0200, harald at f00.nu wrote:
> >At 17:08 2000-09-18 -0400, you wrote:
> >>That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses cannot send
> >>messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.
> >
> >I suppose you know why we don�t have that (the remailing issue). But I
> >kinda have another idea. Just start every subject line with eg -C-P- like
> >I did now, then it would be really easy to filter all the mail.
>
> Last I checked the remailers allowed return mail to be sent through them,
> to the owner of the anonymous account.. isn't that the point?  It's easy

You checked quite a long time ago. Return mail isn't possible with Type 1 or 
Type 2 remailers.

> enough to forge the email header that I can't believe they exist just to
> totally isolate anyone from the responses.. how would someone using a
> remailer even join the list (to receive messages) if that was the point?

You use a remailer to post to the list, not to read it.

> The only part where I see this being useful is if somebody has some kind of
> anonymous announcement to make, where they don't intend to join the list.

Huh?

> The benefits of having the list open to unsubscribed postings seem far
> outweighed by the cost in time spent by everyone filtering messages and
> server resources that could be better spent running dnetc if nothing else
> ;). It's just auxiliary that I've never seen an anonymous post to the list
> in the past when I subscribed, nor more recently since I
> resubscribed.  Undoubtedly some smartass will send an anonymous message to
> the list now just to say "see!" :P

Well, if you would stop using the toad.com address, you might have less spam.

> There has to be some way around this that will still preserve anonymity,
> although one doesn't seem readily apparent unless the anonymous party
> subscribes under their pseudonym.

pseudonymity != anonymity.

> What about just creating another list (closed-posting) and then just
> allowing people to choose which to subscribe to?  Obviously, the
> open-posting list would be subscribed to the closed posting list, but not
> the other way around.. so at the risk of missing the massively important
> anonymous message that has yet to be sent, I could eliminate some of this spam?

Been there, tried that. There is nothing wrong with the current setup.

-S.R.




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 11:51:14 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:51:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Qualcomm CEO loses laptop
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 2:09 PM -0400 9/19/00, Templeton, Stuart wrote:
>wtf was the "Qualcomm Chief" doing walking around with secrets of that
>severity, much less on a laptop, on a podium in a HOTEL CONFERENCE ROOM
??????????


As with "A. Melon," you apparently don't bother to read the news.

Jacobson was giving a talk, using his laptop for the talk, and 
stepped away for a few moments to talk to some journalists.

One can learn from his mistake, but the thrust of your comments, 
"walking around with secrets of that severity..." is way off-base.

Folks, if you don't read the news, or watch it on CNN and CNBC and 
the like, please don't feel compelled to add foolish remarks.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 14:53:06 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:53:06 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu>
Message-ID: 

At 10:54 AM +0200 9/19/00, harald at f00.nu wrote:
>At 17:08 2000-09-18 -0400, you wrote:
>>That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses 
>>cannot send messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.
>
>I suppose you know why we don´t have that (the remailing issue). But 
>I kinda have another idea. Just start every subject line with eg 
>-C-P- like I did now, then it would be really easy to filter all the 
>mail.
>
>//Harald


Nitwit, this idea has been proposed many times. Choate even does 
this, unfortunately, to all traffic flowing through his node.

I used to think that nitwits were their own punishment. I now have 
come to the conclusion that it's long past due that we stoke the 
furnaces....

--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Sep 19 15:15:23 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:15:23 -0700
Subject: CDR: RIAA seizures
References: <7db22704af8837abb0841b0813575bd0@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <39C7E57B.F87BCB39@sunder.net>

"A. Melon" wrote:
> 
> Funny, the article doesnt say
> how the pirates subverted the
> encryption in order to make copies.

Call me slow, if you like, but I don't get your point.
Since when do *Audio* CD's use CSS encryption?


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 15:34:28 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:34:28 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 1:28 PM -0500 9/5/00, Gary Jeffers wrote:
>Fellow Cypherpunks,
>
>                     THE LAWYER GAMBIT
>
>   I remember reading in old anti-IRS literature about a technique for
>avoiding prosecutions. A client would tell a lawyer that he wanted to
>do something and would ask if it were legal to do. The lawyer would
>then give his opinion as to wheather it was legal or not. If the lawyer
>said that it was legal and gave his opinion in writing, then the
>client could proceed without out worry. The lawyer's opinion would stop
>any criminal prosecution.

And the nitwits who believed this are now serving ten to twenty on 
income tax evasion charges.

You really think that if I, for example, were to waste three years of 
my life getting a law degree and then passing the bar that my advice 
would absolve someone of criminal charges/

You were a fool several years ago. Apparently the years you were away 
have not helped.


--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From marcel at aiurea.com  Tue Sep 19 12:37:35 2000
From: marcel at aiurea.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:37:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: 
Message-ID: <02f201c02270$f176f340$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>



From stempleton at ea.com  Tue Sep 19 12:38:37 2000
From: stempleton at ea.com (Templeton, Stuart)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:38:37 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Qualcomm CEO loses laptop
Message-ID: 


>As with "A. Melon," you apparently don't bother to read the news.

true, sadly i'm not as up-to-date as i could be, as i have little free time
and (blah blah excuse, blah, yeah, you get the idea) but that's SORTOF one
of the reasons i've subscribed to this list (btw, i appoligize to everyone
for being less than constructive or conversational in this email)

>Jacobson was giving a talk, using his laptop for the talk, and 
>stepped away for a few moments to talk to some journalists.

i caught this, and i think this is foolish.
the "wtf was he doing that" thing was sortof a figure of speech, sorry.



>One can learn from his mistake, but the thrust of your comments, 
>"walking around with secrets of that severity..." is way off-base.


one can learn from ones mistakes indeed (his or mine??), however wether or
not my statement is "off-base" is debatable... and though i guess the
importance of the secrets is as well. so is the guy out "trade secrets" (and
what not) or is he just out a nice little laptop? so with that in mind i
came to the conclusion that they felt that they suffered a larger loss than
4000$ (i don't really know the price of the laptop)... simply put, i guess,
if i had trade secrets that could potentialy cause as much damage to worry
people like that , i wouldn't leave it alone, not for 15-20, not for 5, and
not to talk to some journalists.

honestly, though, i'm not really one to judge, as i've never been in his
position before. (though i still maintain his action foolish, much as you
probably view my emails now ! :)  )and i'll try and hold back the urge to
join in conversation and add opinion and potential new views on various
situations that arise on this list. perhaps i'll learn more about that way.

-----Original Message-----
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM
[mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Tim May
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:51 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: RE: Qualcomm CEO loses laptop



At 2:09 PM -0400 9/19/00, Templeton, Stuart wrote:
>wtf was the "Qualcomm Chief" doing walking around with secrets of that
>severity, much less on a laptop, on a podium in a HOTEL CONFERENCE ROOM
??????????


As with "A. Melon," you apparently don't bother to read the news.

Jacobson was giving a talk, using his laptop for the talk, and 
stepped away for a few moments to talk to some journalists.

One can learn from his mistake, but the thrust of your comments, 
"walking around with secrets of that severity..." is way off-base.

Folks, if you don't read the news, or watch it on CNN and CNBC and 
the like, please don't feel compelled to add foolish remarks.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.






From kerry at vscape.com  Tue Sep 19 13:22:12 2000
From: kerry at vscape.com (Kerry L. Bonin)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:22:12 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Qualcomm CEO loses laptop - AP article illegal under DMCA?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000919131830.04d9e7b0@shell13.ba.best.com>

At 01:44 PM 9/19/00 -0400, A. Melon wrote:
>PC with Corporate Secrets
>           Disappears
>           Qualcomm Chiefs Laptop Taken from Podium 
>
>           Sept. 18, 2000 
>
>                       IRVINE, Calif. (AP) -- The personal portable
[snip]

>           If security on Jacobs laptop was limited only to password
protection
>           _ rather than a more advanced encryption scheme -- "its extremely
>           unlikely that it will take any more than removing the hard
drive and
>           hooking it up to another computer to read all the files,"
Abbott said. 

Doesn't the above message now constitute a crime under DMCA?  Couldn't
Microsoft and/or Qualcomm now bring charges against the AP for revealing
how to circumvent their protection (sic) measures? 






From root at mail4.burlee.com  Tue Sep 19 08:29:15 2000
From: root at mail4.burlee.com (Sales Department)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:29:15 +0100
Subject: CDR: Your Order!
Message-ID: <20000919113500.SM00067@mail4.burlee.com>

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From lillus at email.msn.com  Tue Sep 19 14:30:50 2000
From: lillus at email.msn.com (MIKE SESSIONS)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:30:50 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <000801c02280$e4165140$9e4b193f@oemcomputer>

Put your computer in to Safemod in startup, drag FoolProof to the Trash
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From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 19 13:37:15 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:37:15 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Qualcomm CEO loses laptop
Message-ID: <39C7CF2E.3B0C8DA4@lsil.com>

>At 2:09 PM -0400 9/19/00, Templeton, Stuart wrote:
>>wtf was the "Qualcomm Chief" doing walking around with secrets of that
>>severity, much less on a laptop, on a podium in a HOTEL CONFERENCE ROOM
>??????????
>
>As with "A. Melon," you apparently don't bother to read the news.
>
>Jacobson was giving a talk, using his laptop for the talk, and 
>stepped away for a few moments to talk to some journalists.
>
>One can learn from his mistake, but the thrust of your comments, 
>"walking around with secrets of that severity..." is way off-base.
>
>Folks, if you don't read the news, or watch it on CNN and CNBC and 
>the like, please don't feel compelled to add foolish remarks.
>
>--Tim May
>-- 
>
Bad move. Apart from the insider trading sort of info that might be
present on the machine maybe the most interesting thing would be e-mail
or specs relating to LE access to communications systems. Maybe some
generous thief will forward some good material to John.





From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep 19 13:39:57 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:39:57 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: RIAA seizures
In-Reply-To: <39C7E57B.F87BCB39@sunder.net>
References: <7db22704af8837abb0841b0813575bd0@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000919133636.00840610@pop.sprynet.com>

At 03:17 PM 9/19/00 -0400, sunder wrote:
>"A. Melon" wrote:
>> 
>> Funny, the article doesnt say
>> how the pirates subverted the
>> encryption in order to make copies.
>
>Call me slow, if you like, but I don't get your point.
>Since when do *Audio* CD's use CSS encryption?

I think the lines that followed reveal the author's sarcasm:

>Oh, you dont have to.
>Listening, Kaplan?

A. Melon is probably alluding to something Kaplan doesn't 'get':
To copy a DVD you don't need DeCSS.  Bits are bits.













  








From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 15:25:24 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:25:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Excerpt of Mark Summerfield's 'Letter from 2020'
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Pretty lame story all in all.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Trei, Peter wrote:

> 
> http://www.osOpinion.com/Opinions/MarkSummerfield/MarkSummerfield3.html
> [...]
> 
> I try to remember what it was like when I was a kid but it's
> really difficult; the world has changed so much since
> then. I found a paper book the other day that described the
> rise and fall of something called the "Internet". It started
> out with people putting up links on computers so that they
> could follow the link and read things on other computers for
> free. After it got to be popular, companies started to
> create machines with lots of links that you could search to
> find things of interest. But someone put up a link to
> something illegal and got sued and had their machine shut
> down. This happened a few times and people started to take
> the links off their machines. The search engine companies
> were the first to go and without them, you couldn't find
> anything. Eventually no one put up links anymore because the
> legal risk was too great. The important thing is that it
> reduced terrorism. I'm not sure how it could have worked
> anyway. Anything I write on my computer or any music I
> create gets stored by Word.NET and Music.NET in encrypted
> formats to protect my privacy. No one but me, Microsoft.NET
> and the National Corporation can read or hear my stuff even
> if they could link to it.
> 
> I shouldn't admit it, but sometimes I go to certain places
> and speak to the subversives. I know its wrong but their
> warped views on things have some kind of morbid
> fascination. For example, I spoke to someone who claimed to
> be a historian the other day. She had courage all right,
> admitting to an illegal activity like that. I hadn't
> understood why it was illegal until she explained. History,
> she told me, gives you context. You can compare today with
> some time in the past; ask questions like, "are people
> better off", "look at the different forms of doing
> business", "compare corporate records or the rights of
> citizens" (I think she meant employees).
> [...]
> 

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 15:27:25 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:27:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <3d1a7630d1d7144c556f15502b7f456e@anon.xg.nu>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, No User wrote:

>       Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know
> that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless
> shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the
> subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck
> off the list.

Actualy you can't reply to SOME kinds of anonymous remailers. There are
persistent anonymous accounts that can be two-way. YOU just don't happen
to use one.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 15:35:25 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:35:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote:

> Oh?  Name one please.  After all, it would sort of defeat the 
> purpose...

A normal ISP account accessed through ZKS (for example), where the
'normal' account is blinded (give 'em bogus data, just make sure the MO's
get there on time) through some mechanism. One could lie, I've never been
asked for ID when setting up an account if I paid with cash to start it.
If these new 'anonymous' credit cards work out this might be a good way to
pay.

What purpose is that? To be anonymous does not imply that return traffic
is prohibited. All that is required is a mechanism to 'hide' the
'anonymous <> known' database. In addition, accessing the 'known' account
via transient and real-time (e.g. ZKS) anonymous accounts will provide an
additional layer of mix.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 15:37:46 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:37:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: BOUNCE cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com:     Admin request of type /\b uns\w*b/i at line 8   (fwd)
Message-ID: 


With suitable edits...
    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:58:05 -0500
From: owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com
To: owner-cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com:     Admin request of type
/\b uns\w*b/i at line 8  

>From owner-cypherpunks at ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 12:57:57 2000
Received: from mail3.ccs.bbk.ac.uk (mail1.ccs.bbk.ac.uk [193.61.22.6])
	by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27738
	for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:57:55 -0500
Received: from ccs.bbk.ac.uk (actually host ccs22.ccs.bbk.ac.uk)
          by mail3.ccs.bbk.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer) with ESMTP;
          Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:34:23 +0100
Message-ID: <39C7A37E.BFA72D01 at ccs.bbk.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:33:50 +0100
From: Ken Brown 
Reply-To: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk
Organization: Birkbeck College Central Computing Services
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
CC: cypherpunks at toad.com
Subject: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8 at mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490 at mail.megapathdsl.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Asymmetric wrote:
 
> >>That the list be changed so that unregistered email addresses cannot send
> >>messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.

[...snip...]

> The benefits of having the list open to u nsubscribed postings seem far
> outweighed by the cost in time spent by everyone filtering messages and
> server resources that could be better spent running dnetc if nothing else
> ;). It's just auxiliary that I've never seen an anonymous post to the list
> in the past when I subscribed, nor more recently since I
> resubscribed.  Undoubtedly some smartass will send an anonymous message to
> the list now just to say "see!"

[...snip...]

Listen carefully. I will say this only once.  All you say is true.
Moderated and closed lists are good ideas. Such good ideas that nearly
every mailing list in the world is closed and moderated. But maybe, just
maybe, there is some reason for an open, unmoderated list. Just one in
the whole world. Or maybe there are some loonies who for motives of
their own (that you might or might not approve of, as if they cared),
wish to read such a list.  This is that list. These are those loonies.
If you don't like it, or them,  you can join another list. No-ones
stopping you. You can even make your own list if you want. 

It's like someone visits a farm and complains that the place is full of
animals... or a farmer visits the city and moans about all those
houses... 

> What about just creating another list (closed-posting) and then just
> allowing people to choose which to subscribe to?  Obviously, the
> open-posting list would be subscribed to the closed posting list, but not
> the other way around.. so at the risk of missing the massively important
> anonymous message that has yet to be sent, I could eliminate some of this spam?

Another good suggestion. So good I think someone made it back in about
1995 (or was it 1997?). Feel free to create such a list yourself, if you
want another one.





From harald at f00.nu  Tue Sep 19 08:38:13 2000
From: harald at f00.nu (harald at f00.nu)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:38:13 +0200
Subject: CDR: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90@f00.nu>

At 08:04 2000-09-19 -0400, you wrote:
>I can't see the -C-P- subject as really being functional for sorting out 
>spam mail because anyone new to the list won't know to put them in, nor 
>the people I mentioned who might wish to make anonymous announcements.

The "-C-P-" think should of course be found in some kind of faq and/or in 
the subscribtion welcome message.

>What about just creating another list (closed-posting) and then just 
>allowing people to choose which to subscribe to?  Obviously, the 
>open-posting list would be subscribed to the closed posting list, but not 
>the other way around.. so at the risk of missing the massively important 
>anonymous message that has yet to be sent, I could eliminate some of this spam?

That might be a better idea yes. :)
Some nice person might even forward "serious" remailed e-mails to the 
closed list (since they don´t seem to be too frequent).

//Harald





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 15:51:35 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:51:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Tim May wrote:

> >I suppose you know why we don�t have that (the remailing issue). But 
> >I kinda have another idea. Just start every subject line with eg 
> >-C-P- like I did now, then it would be really easy to filter all the 
> >mail.

> Nitwit, this idea has been proposed many times. Choate even does 
> this, unfortunately, to all traffic flowing through his node.

No, I don't do this. I do put a tag in the title for traffic analysis and
easy visual identification. Despite your bitching about it, about 70% of
the mailing lists I'm aware of do the same thing. The only distinction is
they put []'s around it. I could put []'s if that'll make you happy. The
'CDR' itself stays. Very handy for quick visual scanning. 

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Tue Sep 19 15:36:18 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:36:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Where are the crypt source blackboards?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Gary Jeffers wrote:

> source lines. I don't remember seeing any such on Cypherpunks and the
> little I've checked out on Coderpunks I haven't seen any there either.

do people have code which they want to post? 

personally, the prohibition wouldn't affect me much. but most of my crypto
source code issues are problems with using OpenSSL (I'm an OpenSSL newbie,
sad to say, and trying to change that). there are other places to look for
help with that...

what I'd expect to be posted here or to coderpunks would be discussions of
the right techniques and so on to use when developing crypto applications. 
sometimes with code as an illustration. and we do have that, c.f.
discussions on wagner blinding, recipient hiding signatures, and so on. 
just not so much of it because, well, coming up with this stuff takes a
fair amount of time. at least for me. so it is not as prevalent as the
latest phil/pol musings. 

-david




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 16:55:50 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:55:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: The Dark Horse of Intellect Rides Again
In-Reply-To: <84itrshtf3.fsf@athena.dhis.org>
Message-ID: 


Speaking of sloppy thinking...

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote:

> English as a second (or higher) language. It's more about *very*
> sloppy thinking. A mild example of it is "Dark Horse" telling me to
> give him a "simple answer : yes or no" and then asking me a question
> to which he clearly wants more than a simple "yes" or "no." (Note that
> I'm not counting as sloppy thinking the problems which are inherent in
> most languages, such as the answer to "Is it day or night?" being
> "yes" in all cases.)

Actualy 'yes' or 'no' aren't valid responces. Only 'day' or 'night', one
or the other but not both. This is the English OR not a Boolean Algebra
operation.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 16:57:12 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:57:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: The Dark Horse of Intellect Rides Again
In-Reply-To: <84aed4hsz8.fsf@athena.dhis.org>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote:

> *slap* Now I'm doing it. It must be osmosis or something. I'm also
> aware that I'm nitpicking in both these posts.
> 
> I should have added "and 'no; in intermediate cases such as dusk or
> dawn."  Either way, the point is that English and most, if not all,
> languages I'm aware of have this particular problem. Some artificial
> languages, such as Lojban, tend to discourage this by, among other
> things, requiring or encouraging the respondant to restate the true
> portion of the statement.   

Any 'general' language that prohibits this sort of exclusive-OR is
worthless.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Tue Sep 19 16:08:26 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:08:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: The Dark Horse of Intellect Rides Again
In-Reply-To: "Dark Horse"'s message of "Sun, 3 Sep 2000 00:17:44 -0700"
References: 
Message-ID: <84itrshtf3.fsf@athena.dhis.org>


I'm copying this to the list because, aside from making fun of this
idiot, I might as well post a short comment on the pathetic, sorry
state of the Internet and society in general. This is necessary
because we seem to have so many newbies on the list, as evidenced by
the recent rambling about list filtering (_again_), and the latest
anonymous remailer spiel. 

(Disclaimer: This is American-centric since America seems to be where
the majority of the junk comes from.)

I really don't know who to blame. Is it the American public education
system which would rather teach students about Earth Day than about
English or mathematics, and which would likely give "Dark Horse" an
"A" for his drek? Is it the fault of popular entertainment and its
stultifying effects? Is it the declining popularity of reading? Is it
the canned, biased, and frankly lie-filled mainstream news?  Perhaps 
it's better to blame the idiots themselves, since clearly it's
possible to educate oneself. Perhaps its everyone's fault, though I'm
not quite ready to accept responsibility for the proliferation of this
brand of stupidity. 

I used to think that the Internet got the brunt of it, until I
realized that I was just so used to it in meatspace that I tended to
ignore it. It isn't really about grammar, because some people speak
English as a second (or higher) language. It's more about *very*
sloppy thinking. A mild example of it is "Dark Horse" telling me to
give him a "simple answer : yes or no" and then asking me a question
to which he clearly wants more than a simple "yes" or "no." (Note that
I'm not counting as sloppy thinking the problems which are inherent in
most languages, such as the answer to "Is it day or night?" being
"yes" in all cases.)

The American news media, in particular, tends to habitually get things
wrong. In fact, when the news media reports on something I know about,
the majority of the time they get it wrong. An example most of us can
relate to is the horrible state of computer-related and
Internet-related reporting. Of course, the natural conclusion to be
drawn from this is that whenever the media reports on something I
*don't* know much about, it's just as full of logical holes, lies,
distortions, hype, and mistakes. Perhaps a worse effect is that people
who realize this tend to think that virtually everything the media 
says is wrong by default.

Perhaps it's all a lost cause when people in a college class can see
how George W. Bush might be Plato's Democrat, but not how Al Gore
might just as easily be Plato's tyrant. ("I'm for the people, not the
powerful," for example.) The first assertion was praised by the
students. The second apparently required more mental wattage than the
students were capable of putting out. Both were made by students.

Perhaps one of the Four (or however many there are now) Horsemen
should be the Horseman of Stupidity. Another should be the Horseman of
Apathy. 

A copy of the latest contribution of "Dark Horse" follows:

"Dark Horse"  writes:

> Hello Stranger !
> 
> are you making fool of me ?

No. I'd say that you're doing a fine job making a fool out of
yourself. 

> 
> actually I did not find any simple answer to my questions !!

Ah, of course. I can see how that is necessary for so simple a man. 

> 
> do you speak English ?;)

Judging by your grammar, I apparently speak it much better than you
do. 

>  
> 
> Now again I ask my questions and I hope you will anwer me with
> 
> a simple answer : yes  or no
> 
>  
> 
> 1- is there any way to have access to a webpage like : www.sanjesh.org

Yes.

(If I'm allowed to say how, the answer is: "Yes, use a web browser, or
do it manually using telnet if that's your thing. Duh.")

> 
> 2- can I find somebody's email password in internet .. if yes , how ?

Yes.

Sniff it, get it via social engineering, trojan their
machine... Please, quit chewing on your duodenum.

> 
>  
> 
> waiting for your Simple answers !

I'm waiting for a complete sentence.





From raze at nym.alias.net  Tue Sep 19 12:08:47 2000
From: raze at nym.alias.net (raze)
Date: 19 Sep 2000 19:08:47 -0000
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask
Message-ID: <20000919190847.15650.qmail@nym.alias.net>

I believe you are correct.  Johan Helsingius operated the world's most popular anonymous remailer, called penet.fi, until he closed up shop in September 1996. Helsingius' troubles started when he was raided in 1995 by the Finnish police after the Church of Scientology complined that a penet.fi customer was posting the "church's" secrets on the Net. Helsingius mothballed the remailer after a Finnish court ruled he must reveal the customer's real e-mail address.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, BMM wrote:

> Perhaps the penet remailer, which shut down in 9/96, is the one > being referred to. See http://www.penet.fi.  If memory serves, > it was by far the most popular (pseudo|ano)nymous of the time.
>
> On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>
>> At 12:43 -0400 9/19/00, Asymmetric wrote:
>> Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that >> DO let you reply to the originator.  In case you're just a bit >> wet behind the ears yet and hadn't heard, a while back there >> was a big problem with one of them when the government ordered >> them to release their database mapping the pseudonyms back to >> the originators.
>> 
>> Oh?  Name one please.  After all, it would sort of defeat the 
>> purpose...  As to your comment about having a database mapping 
>> pseudonyms to names, if one of those exists for a given >> remailer, it's not an ananymous remailer.  I certainly hope >> none of the remailers in use by users here do such things.




From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Tue Sep 19 16:18:29 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:18:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: The Dark Horse of Intellect Rides Again
In-Reply-To: David Marshall's message of "19 Sep 2000 18:08:00 -0500"
References: 
Message-ID: <84aed4hsz8.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

David Marshall  writes:

> to which he clearly wants more than a simple "yes" or "no." (Note that
> I'm not counting as sloppy thinking the problems which are inherent in
> most languages, such as the answer to "Is it day or night?" being
> "yes" in all cases.)

*slap* Now I'm doing it. It must be osmosis or something. I'm also
aware that I'm nitpicking in both these posts.

I should have added "and 'no; in intermediate cases such as dusk or
dawn."  Either way, the point is that English and most, if not all,
languages I'm aware of have this particular problem. Some artificial
languages, such as Lojban, tend to discourage this by, among other
things, requiring or encouraging the respondant to restate the true
portion of the statement.   





From reeza at flex.com  Tue Sep 19 23:05:02 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:05:02 -1000
Subject: CDR: More COTUS rants...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919200444.00cb8ce0@flex.com>

At 08:39 PM 19/09/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >And they say I'm half-baked?...I'm not alone.
 >                 ^^^^^^^^^^
 >Findlaw: The Constitution and your CD's
 >
 >http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/columns/f1.hamlton.copyright.09.19/

404.




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 18:39:09 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:39:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: More COTUS rants...
Message-ID: 


And they say I'm half-baked?...I'm not alone.

Findlaw: The Constitution and your CD's

http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/columns/f1.hamlton.copyright.09.19/

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From Your3.95MortgageHere at aol.com  Tue Sep 19 17:42:42 2000
From: Your3.95MortgageHere at aol.com (Your3.95MortgageHere at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:42:42 -0400
Subject: CDR: ADV: 3.95% 30 yr. & 4.95% 40 yr. Mortgages NOW
Message-ID: <200009200033.JAA29130@dove.kyungin-c.ac.kr>

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From jimdbell at home.com  Tue Sep 19 20:50:45 2000
From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:50:45 -0700
Subject: CDR: Official misbehavior
Message-ID: <001701c022b5$f542e200$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com>

I'm working on Item 2 below.

Jim Bell



=================================
To: Frederick Burroughs 
Subject: next to go on trial: Jeff Gordon and is co-conspirators. (was: Re:
The Second Cypherpunks Show Trial )
From: Zooko Journeyman 
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:09:51 -0600
cc: Cypherpunks 
In-Reply-To: Message from Frederick Burroughs  of "Mon,
12 Apr 1999 07:41:10 EDT." <3711DBD6.78EB1609 at shentel.net>
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM

If there is anything to the speculation below, then perhaps
J.G.&Co. are open to be hit where it hurts.  Also Tim May's
complaints about SSN-disclosure and character defamation might
gain legal traction?  And the unsigned, vaguely threatening
messages that have been received by JYA and many other list
members, both recently and immediately after the JB arrest?


There are two possible developments that could yield a really
happy ending here:


1.  CJ's aquittal after a 1st Amendment defense.
2.  Some good evidence of official misbehavior turns up and is
leveraged into a solid criminal case against the loose cannons.


Regards,

Zooko




From treblec at iname.com  Tue Sep 19 17:56:10 2000
From: treblec at iname.com (treblec at iname.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:56:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Cryptonomicon question...
Message-ID: <00091920561032.29502@weba4.iname.net>

Greetings,

I realise Cryptonomicon (by Neal Stephenson) was a thread middle of last year, and I don't intend to revisit old topics. But this question was posed to me, and I can't find the answer anywhere. And it's as simple as this... What is Avi's surname??? 

Web searches came up blank, I've re-read the book, and I couldn't see anything in the old discussion thread.

Don't post responses (not worth the disk space on CH), but I would appreciate an email (and a page reference if possible) before it drives me nuts!!!

Much appreciated

Treble Clef

---------------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://geocities.iname.com




From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Tue Sep 19 19:02:10 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:02:10 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: Please ignore this email- this is only test.
Message-ID: <2cf685c190591d14b5876c1ff1b42084@anon.xg.nu>

Yore ass is blackest, blackie, so put 'er there, pard!

At 12:32 PM 19/09/00 -0800, auto95711 at hushmail.com wrote:
>----- Begin Hush Signed Message from auto95711 at hushmail.com -----
>
>The dog barks at midnight
>The moon is full
>The stick is brown
>So is the toilet paper
>
>----- Begin Hush Signature v1.3 -----
>Hq+ukSgS7nN5At5dNsW7djRTS4xIVJYSVQCaJz8IagYPoqFpf6v+53aNnBZkgWQylppe
>A4DBmdguSeI3oDIDauIyqlnC6VZZtdMbh0ZE3zv1jefvdB4Mo5CxCj+YQEO2KE+qXEsj
>yEWUdvA0SYnU9q98ivzE3WzwrFrTCALk6udwXwEdxaLDsxCcaKT4ATxQ6urDuIKvDncw
>998oXQr9HvFZLx2r3KxeLz9319tRxct19yD+Da0b0+ng3a/L9vY+sX986SwsfvkpcxwD
>TMZMXWpPTgTOGhAMs1RQW7sP6ON+oVqVlPWAkwL7R9nstNxXJN9ZDSopJI/oxS894zA+
>YAw7+ghXyczpqjAuuK32AD7xNwKB4WuIlgefDqCd+dBDFmAJN4DpHlMpms47ZowundXK
>5yQvn3JrYhWvmhb6Ffd/wRTmv4WwlyVXXHhDSYhs0jAQrbAX3SGE2rxvBi5Y3ri7pulZ
>PWYe+eoaa2L+/HbmjuR4dx+jvZHRwGpv9cOSiirj2ss+
>
>----- End Hush Signature v1.3 -----



---
This message did not originate from the Sender address above.
It was mailed out with the anonymizing software at
http://anon.xg.nu
---




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 22:10:28 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:10:28 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920001749.00b062a0@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90@f00.nu>
 <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90@f00.nu>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000920001749.00b062a0@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 

At 12:42 AM -0400 9/20/00, Asymmetric wrote:
>
>First off, let me point THIS out to you...
>
>A search on excite for +cypherpunks +list turns up a great deal of sites...
>
>The first site, "VERONA cypherpunks archives" has a link called 
>"List Information", which goes nowhere.
>The second site, obscura.com has several links but no mention of the 
>list itself.
>The third, fourth, fifth, sixth and ninth sites, the cypherpunks 
>hyperarchive at inet-one.com, has a copy of an email message 
>DIRECTED AT THE TOAD.COM ADDRESS that comes up first in the search, 
>followed by some others.
>The SEVENTH site is homeport.org, and the first link on the site is 
>to "The Cypherpunks Homepage" pointing to an FTP archive at 
>berkeley, and has a link to the mailing list.  This link 
>specifically tells you TO use the toad.com address.
>
>So who is being ignorant exactly?  You go to a page claiming to be 
>the "Cypherpunks Homepage" and it says the mailing list is 
>@toad.com??

The past is its own problem. We in the present are not responsible 
for the accumulated detritus from dead and defunct sites.

Wake up and get a clue.

>Why don't you blame the asshole responsible for that site before 
>blaming people who did their due diligence and turned up toad.com 
>again and again?  As it happens, this "homepage" makes no mention 
>whatsoever about the other filtered lists.. not that I didn't know 
>about Coderpunks or the others, but if you don't know, they aren't 
>easy to just "bump into."  This berkeley.edu site is the only site 
>I've run across ever claiming to be "The Homepage" and I believe it 
>to be the closest thing there is to one.  So, kindly, shove it.

Are you dumb, or just ignorant? That someone set up a "Cypherpunks 
home page" several years ago means nothing. That no one has done it 
since means much more...it means those since who read the list 
understand the churlishness of presuming to set up a "home page.

A point lost on you, "Asymmetric," the same "Asymmetric" who says 
that anyone wishing to read the list should do so under his or her 
true name.


>
>But, on a related note...
>
>>X-Sender: tcmay at mail.got.net
>>Message-Id: 
>>In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90 at f00.nu>
>>References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00 at f00.nu>
>>  <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8 at mail.megapathdsl.net>
>>  <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90 at f00.nu>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:36:52 -0700
>>To: harald at f00.nu, cypherpunks at toad.com
>
>Hey kettle, this is the pot.  Did you happen to notice you're black?
>
>>From: Tim May 
>>Subject: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
>>Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net


Did you notice the _real_ list I copied? Check the above block.

I copied the list the untermenschen hang out on just to make sure you'd see it.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 19 22:23:36 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:23:36 -0700
Subject: CDR: RE: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

>On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, Kerry L. Bonin wrote:

>especially software sold to us mass market consumers.  I expect markets
>exist in which software has to be held to an extremely high standard of
>reliability (e.g. Space Shuttle, financial markets, health software,
>embedded systems spring to mind). How are liability issues dealt with in

	There is a specific group that handles the software for the 
Space Shuttle. There is an article at: 
http://www.fastcompany.com/online/06/writestuff.html. The solve the 
liability problem by being *very* *very* anal retentive and good at 
what they do.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 19 22:24:24 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:24:24 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 

At 1:03 AM -0400 9/20/00, Asymmetric wrote:
>At 13:47 09/19/2000 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>(P.S. Lose the toad.com address. Get a clue. Or, since you appear 
>>to be a luser, "loose the toad.com address.")
>
>You keep sending to it yourself.  Mind explaining what the problem is?
>
>>And how many anonymously-remailed messages to this list have ever, 
>>in all the years of this list, included reply blocks? No more than 
>>a small handful, as I recall seeing.
>
>Exactly my point.

A weasler. You previously claimed that remailers routinely allowed 
this. Note that they usually don't, and certainly not without the 
remailer blocks present. Given that virtually no such messages made 
to the CP list have included such blocks, clearly what you claimed 
was not feasible.

>
>>"the remailers allowed return mail" is terribly misleading, and 
>>probably arises out of ignorance of what reply blocks are and why 
>>they are so difficult to use, rather than imprecision in language.
>
>I did rather mean pseudo-anonymous remailer, and the other response 
>indicating I was talking about Julfs' remailer was correct.  It's 
>not as though his was the only one that existed either, just the 
>most popular.. likely among the most popular BECAUSE it kept this 
>database and allowed responses;

This is a lie. Plain and simple. There was Kremvax, but this predated 
Julf's PENET service by a couple of years. At the time of Julf's 
service, roughly 1992 to its shutdown in 1996, there were no other 
such systems. Please name one if you can.

Your language above shows that your are you just bullshitting. You 
can't name a viable competitor, because there weren't any.

And Julf's system has been down for four years. A lifetime in 
Internet years. Certainly of no relevance whatsover to your plaintiff 
calls for people to use reply-enable remailers if they wish to post 
to the list.


>If the database it was using had been encrypted with a key known 
>only to the remailer software itself, then it would have been easier 
>for him to refuse to give up the information that he was ordered to 
>produce.

Duh. Are you just now figuring this stuff out?

>
>As for my being naive as you claim in a second here, who is really 
>being naive here?  You think that just because the remailer doesn't 
>maintain an active database of nym mappings that it's immdiately 
>impossible for it to be reversed?  You implicitly trust anyone who 
>says "here, use my remailer, I guarantee it's anonymous?"  Get with 
>the program.  One fucking line on a console, in a firewall rule, 
>anywhere along the way could fuck you into losing your anonymity, 
>unless the message was sent encrypted to the remailer, and that's 
>just to start with.

Duh. Get back to us when you figure out how chained remailers work, 
with PGP-nested messages. On second thought, _don't_ get back to us.

>
>I think that using a forged header is just as reliable as using an 
>anonymous remailer, and just as anonymous if done right.  There is 
>no "port 25" hack involved.  It's as simple as setting whatever 
>email software you use to use X as it's smtp server, and then 
>entering a nonexistant return address somewhere else.  At best, 
>you'll be totally anonymous.

You have zero understanding of the issues involved.

I regret having wasted even ten minutes today responding to you.

>On another note, if you're clued in enough to even know what an 
>anonymous remailer is, where they can be found, and how to use them,

This is rich. See my 1992 presentation on Chaumian remailers, given 
at the first Cypherpunks meeting, in September. See the earlier cited 
memos from 1988-91. See the features I described in detail. Compare 
to the reality of extant remailers. Then repeat your above comment 
with a straight face.

Fucking newbies.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 19 22:42:08 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:42:08 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919123703.00b71790@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919123703.00b71790@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 

>At 10:24 09/19/2000 -0500, Anonymous Coward vomited:
>
>
>>        Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know
>>that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless
>>shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the
>>subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck
>>off the list.
>
>Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO 
>let you reply to the originator.  In case you're just a bit wet 
>behind the ears yet and hadn't

	No, there are not.

	If it allows *ANY* back trace, it's not anonymous.

>  heard, a while back there was a big problem with one of them when 
>the government ordered them to release their database mapping the 
>pseudonyms back to the originators.
>
>Clueless?  Far from it.

	No, not far. What you are refereing to are "pseudonymous" remailers.

>
>How about this.. you shut your own ignorant ass before you make a 
>bigger fool of yourself than you already have, and try and fucking 
>consider for one second how you manage to sort through a hundred 
>fucking spam messages a day sent to this list, and yet you 
>apparently don't have the mental facility to delete my own messages 
>if you find them so useless.  It's pretty simple for you to add me 
>to the killfile, why don't you do it?  I could personally give a 
>shit if you never read anything more I have to say.  Have fun 
>filtering the spam.

	I think this should stand on it's own don't you?
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From reeza at flex.com  Tue Sep 19 19:59:04 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:59:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <39C790B7.E080E443@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919165757.00caaa40@flex.com>

At 12:13 PM 19/09/00 -0400, Harmon Seaver wrote:
 >     This guy apparantly can't read.  He certainly didn't read Choate's
 >reply that there were moderated cp lists, and gave him the url to access
 >them. Nor did he read the other replies telling him to check the
 >archives.  And he is totally, absolutely clueless about remailers,
 >confusing them with nym servers.
 >             Must be a troll.

A bit more sophisticated than the usual, if true.

Hmmm,,,

Reese





From Postmaster at qualcomm.com  Tue Sep 19 23:22:11 2000
From: Postmaster at qualcomm.com (qcpm)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <20000920022149.A3399@positron.mit.edu>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>  <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net> <20000920022149.A3399@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <200009200622.XAA18584@enigma.qualcomm.com>

Greetings,

Your recent email message to QUALCOMM has not been delivered due to the 
attachment it included. QUALCOMM does not allow email with certain types of 
attachments due to the possible presence of a computer virus in these files.
Please resend your message without any attachments or compress your 
attachment before sending it.

We apologize for any inconvenience. 

The QUALCOMM Postmasters



> --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Disposition: inline
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Asymmetric  wrote:
> > As for my being naive as you claim in a second here, who is really being=
> =20
> > naive here?  You think that just because the remailer doesn't maintain an=
> =20
> > active database of nym mappings that it's immdiately impossible for it to=
> =20
> > be reversed?  You implicitly trust anyone who says "here, use my remailer=
> ,=20
> > I guarantee it's anonymous?"  Get with the program.  One fucking line on =
> a=20
> > console, in a firewall rule, anywhere along the way could fuck you into=
> =20
> > losing your anonymity, unless the message was sent encrypted to the=20
> > remailer, and that's just to start with.

> You should read up on Type 1 and Type 2 remailers.  Both involve
> encryption.  In the case of Type 2 remailers, you only need to trust
> one in the chain that you use in order to be sure that your identity
> is securely hidden.

> > I think that using a forged header is just as reliable as using an=20
> > anonymous remailer, and just as anonymous if done right.  There is no "po=
> rt=20
> > 25" hack involved.  It's as simple as setting whatever email software you=
> =20
> > use to use X as it's smtp server, and then entering a nonexistant return=
> =20
> > address somewhere else.  At best, you'll be totally anonymous.  At worst,=
> =20
> > as is the case with any remailer, some log somewhere could exist that a=
> =20
> > connection to the server took place from w.x.y.z and may even contain the=
> =20
> > to and from addresses used.  In general though, sysadmins are very stupid=
> ,=20
> > and seldom go to the trouble of logging this kind of information for=20
> > successful email messages.. typically only failures are logged.

> Wrong again.  By default in versions of sendmail since 4.9, all sent
> mails are logged right along with the failures--and this includes the
> IP address from which the connection was made to the SMTP server.
> Simply setting your SMTP server is not nearly enough.  If 'they' have
> the IP address from which the mail was sent, 'they' have you.  As I
> said above, please read up on Type 1 and Type 2 remailers before
> making such outrageous claims.

> > So what is more naive?  To assume the fact so plainly evident in everyone=
> s=20
> > face that the vast majority of sysadmins out there are lazy and stupid an=
> d=20
> > then just pick one at random and do as I suggested

> Finding open relays that don't do logging is difficult at best.

> > "anonymous remailers" that make an outright claim to be anonymous, but th=
> at=20
> > you have no way of verifying?

> As I said above, in the case of the Type 2 remailer, you only have to
> trust one server in the chain, and presumably you can find one that
> you're likely to trust not to disclose information to the people from
> whom you want to hide your identity.  In the case of a US national,
> for example, post through a remailer in a country that the US doesn't
> like much--there are plenty of those--and you're fine.  That, or trust
> that, for example, the MIT LCS remailer is reasonably secure (and it
> is--I know the person who runs it), and make sure it's in your chain.

> > very good chance at hitting something

> Again, I ask you to produce an example of an open relay that you are
> reasonably sure does not do logging.

> > I made a suggestion.  You people that responded so caustically maybe are=
> =20
> > tired of hearing the same suggestion over and over again.  I'm tired of=
> =20
> > getting spam that wastes my time, my bandwidth, space on my mail server,=
> =20
> > and any other number of various and sundry resources.

> So please filter, and don't complain.  Or unsubscribe.  It's the
> responsibility of new readers to peruse the archives.  If you had done
> so, you would not have angered those who have heard this argument 10^9
> times.

> > If I "whine" about getting spam... well so be it.  Just know that you all=
> =20
> > whine about my messages, with far more useless messages, and far less=20
> > reason to be at all upset.

> No.  The people of the list expect that you have gone over the
> archives so that what you say is not repetitive and a waste of time
> and bandwidth.  If a bit of time and bandwidth spent now can reinforce
> the practice of archive reading before you post, then it is well
> spent, and is, in the long run, a net savings of both bandwidth and
> time.

> --
> Riad Wahby
> rsw at mit.edu
> MIT VI-2/A 2002

> 5105

> --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S
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From jimdbell at home.com  Tue Sep 19 23:38:39 2000
From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:38:39 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program
References:  
Message-ID: <003801c022cd$6945dc40$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com>

I can't fault the accuracy of your comment, Tim.  Interestingly enough,
however, the usual "it's who you know" seems to control what happens.  From
a Guest Editorial published today in the Oregonian newspaper by Elizabeth
Drew, author of the book "The Corruption of American Politics; What went
wrong and why."

"In 1996, Common Cause filed a complaint with the Justice Department.  It
maintained that the soft-money ads themselves violated the law and that
there was a clear pattern of coordination between the candidates campaigns
and the national committees.  Following the usual O.K. Corral scene at the
Justic Department, Attorney General Janet Reno--without investigating the
complaint--ruled that since the Clinton Campaign had consulted its lawyers,
no criminal intent was involved, and closed the case.  (FBI Director Louis
Freeh, Charles LaBella, Reno's chosen chief prosecutor for the campaign
finance task force, and others objected vehembently to this course of
nonaction.)  Reno bucked the issue over to the feckless Federal Elections
Commission, which did what it usually does:  nothing."  But before the FEC
buried the issue, its general counsel, Lawrence Noble, did find that party
ads violated election laws and recommended the campaigns repay millions of
dollars."     [end of quote]

The real  problem with the "I consulted my lawyer so there's no criminal
intent" is that government simply does not follow its own rules.  But I've
got a solution to that problem.

Jim Bell



----- Original Message -----
From: Tim May 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 15:34 PM
Subject: Re: RC4 source as a literate program


> At 1:28 PM -0500 9/5/00, Gary Jeffers wrote:
> >Fellow Cypherpunks,
> >
> >                     THE LAWYER GAMBIT
> >
> >   I remember reading in old anti-IRS literature about a technique for
> >avoiding prosecutions. A client would tell a lawyer that he wanted to
> >do something and would ask if it were legal to do. The lawyer would
> >then give his opinion as to wheather it was legal or not. If the lawyer
> >said that it was legal and gave his opinion in writing, then the
> >client could proceed without out worry. The lawyer's opinion would stop
> >any criminal prosecution.
>
> And the nitwits who believed this are now serving ten to twenty on
> income tax evasion charges.
>
> You really think that if I, for example, were to waste three years of
> my life getting a law degree and then passing the bar that my advice
> would absolve someone of criminal charges/







From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 19 23:54:27 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 23:54:27 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

I said:
>On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, petro wrote:
>
>>  	If it allows *ANY* back trace, it's not anonymous.
>
>That's not necessarily true. I believe both onion routers and ZKS both
>provide this (at least in principle).
>
>I also believe there is something in ZKS about their mixing being secure
>against themselves...?

	The key word in that sentence was "trace", meaning just 
that--a trace. In the pseudononymous remailers there is a back trace 
to follow. With encrypted reply blocks, we *assume* that back tracing 
is well nigh impossible--and with an appropriate end-point (say the 
final hop is to a mail->news gateway) is pretty much dead certain to 
be fully anonymous.

	I haven't looked at ZKS stuff yet, since they don't have a 
Macintosh version, and I don't have Linux installed at home any more. 
(Only OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Solaris, MacOS 9 and X. I think that's enough 
for now), and I really don't feel that I'm qualified to judge the 
onion routing stuff. Well, Ok, I'm probably not qualified to judge 
the ZKS stuff either.

	Either way, if the ability to map email address to meat space 
identity is less than very, very hard for a government to do 
*technically* then it really isn't anonymous.


-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From brands at xs4all.nl  Tue Sep 19 15:05:22 2000
From: brands at xs4all.nl (brands at xs4all.nl)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:05:22 +0200
Subject: MIT Press book appeared
Message-ID: 

Hi Bob,

The MIT Press book edition has appeared. See

           http://www.xs4all.nl/~brands

Regards,
Stefan

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From petro at bounty.org  Wed Sep 20 00:12:19 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:12:19 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: More COTUS rants...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919200444.00cb8ce0@flex.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919200444.00cb8ce0@flex.com>
Message-ID: 

>At 08:39 PM 19/09/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>>
>>And they say I'm half-baked?...I'm not alone.
>>                  ^^^^^^^^^^
>>Findlaw: The Constitution and your CD's
>>
>>http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/columns/f1.hamlton.copyright.09.19/
>
>404.

	Doubleclicking on that link gives me a 404 as well, but a 
little searching finds 
http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/columns/fl.hamilton.copyright.09.19/.

It seems Mr. C  typed this one in by hand and did a fl => f1 
translation in the process.



-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From all at biosys.net  Tue Sep 19 21:42:50 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:42:50 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90@f00.nu>
 <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90@f00.nu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920001749.00b062a0@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 13:36 09/19/2000 -0700, you wrote:


>You fucking idiots who want "closed" lists have several choices:

Can you come up with any kind of explaination whatsoever for referring to 
what may admittedly be a minority of people trying to make constructive 
comments about how to just reduce the fucking spam?

As I said, how about this:  If YOU don't like seeing MY email, then why 
don't YOU apply the same rules YOU apply to spam to IT?

Apparently you have no fucking problem whatsoever with filtering out the 
great deal of spam that comes from this list, whats a few more messages?


>1. Those who came before you _already_ created closed lists. 
>"Cryptography" and "Coderpunks," for example. Join _those_ lists.
>
>2. Subscribe to one of the filtered lists, e.g., Ray Arachelian's list.
>
>3. Create your own lists.
>
>
>BTW, if you are posting to the "toad.com" address, as you are, you are too 
>ignorant to be giving us advice on how the list ought to be structured.

First off, let me point THIS out to you...

A search on excite for +cypherpunks +list turns up a great deal of sites...

The first site, "VERONA cypherpunks archives" has a link called "List 
Information", which goes nowhere.
The second site, obscura.com has several links but no mention of the list 
itself.
The third, fourth, fifth, sixth and ninth sites, the cypherpunks 
hyperarchive at inet-one.com, has a copy of an email message DIRECTED AT 
THE TOAD.COM ADDRESS that comes up first in the search, followed by some 
others.
The SEVENTH site is homeport.org, and the first link on the site is to "The 
Cypherpunks Homepage" pointing to an FTP archive at berkeley, and has a 
link to the mailing list.  This link specifically tells you TO use the 
toad.com address.

So who is being ignorant exactly?  You go to a page claiming to be the 
"Cypherpunks Homepage" and it says the mailing list is @toad.com??

Why don't you blame the asshole responsible for that site before blaming 
people who did their due diligence and turned up toad.com again and 
again?  As it happens, this "homepage" makes no mention whatsoever about 
the other filtered lists.. not that I didn't know about Coderpunks or the 
others, but if you don't know, they aren't easy to just "bump into."  This 
berkeley.edu site is the only site I've run across ever claiming to be "The 
Homepage" and I believe it to be the closest thing there is to one.  So, 
kindly, shove it.

ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/mailing_list/index.html is the 
site and page I am talking about.

But, on a related note...

>X-Sender: tcmay at mail.got.net
>Message-Id: 
>In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90 at f00.nu>
>References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00 at f00.nu>
>  <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8 at mail.megapathdsl.net>
>  <5.0.0.25.2.20000919172915.02c51e90 at f00.nu>
>Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:36:52 -0700
>To: harald at f00.nu, cypherpunks at toad.com

Hey kettle, this is the pot.  Did you happen to notice you're black?

>From: Tim May 
>Subject: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
>Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com
>Precedence: bulk
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by nf5.netforward.com 
>id RAA27537

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"I don't think [Linux] will be very successful in the long run."
"My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite 
unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse."
-Ken Thompson, Interview May 1999.

http://www.freebsd.org
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve

http://www.rfnj.org
Radio Free New Jersey - 395 streams - 96kbps @ 44.1khz




From all at biosys.net  Tue Sep 19 22:03:47 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:03:47 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 13:47 09/19/2000 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>(P.S. Lose the toad.com address. Get a clue. Or, since you appear to be a 
>luser, "loose the toad.com address.")

You keep sending to it yourself.  Mind explaining what the problem is?


>And how many anonymously-remailed messages to this list have ever, in all 
>the years of this list, included reply blocks? No more than a small 
>handful, as I recall seeing.

Exactly my point.


>"the remailers allowed return mail" is terribly misleading, and probably 
>arises out of ignorance of what reply blocks are and why they are so 
>difficult to use, rather than imprecision in language.

I did rather mean pseudo-anonymous remailer, and the other response 
indicating I was talking about Julfs' remailer was correct.  It's not as 
though his was the only one that existed either, just the most popular.. 
likely among the most popular BECAUSE it kept this database and allowed 
responses; If the database it was using had been encrypted with a key known 
only to the remailer software itself, then it would have been easier for 
him to refuse to give up the information that he was ordered to produce.

As for my being naive as you claim in a second here, who is really being 
naive here?  You think that just because the remailer doesn't maintain an 
active database of nym mappings that it's immdiately impossible for it to 
be reversed?  You implicitly trust anyone who says "here, use my remailer, 
I guarantee it's anonymous?"  Get with the program.  One fucking line on a 
console, in a firewall rule, anywhere along the way could fuck you into 
losing your anonymity, unless the message was sent encrypted to the 
remailer, and that's just to start with.


>As for "I can't believe they exist just to totally isolate...", with your 
>claim that forging headers is apparently a good alternative, you are naive 
>and ignorant.
>
>Do you think that the anonymous poster who posted the RC4 code here 
>several years ago should simply have done some kind of Port 25 hack 
>instead of using a remailer?
>
>Do you think that the folks who distributed the CoS NOTS files should have 
>used header forgings instead of using Cypherpunks remailers? (As the 
>educated amongst you know, the CoS efforts to force Julf to disclose the 
>mapping ultimately failed to produce the source when Julf's mapping only 
>pointed back to a Cypherpunks-type remailer being run at that time by C2Net.)

I think that using a forged header is just as reliable as using an 
anonymous remailer, and just as anonymous if done right.  There is no "port 
25" hack involved.  It's as simple as setting whatever email software you 
use to use X as it's smtp server, and then entering a nonexistant return 
address somewhere else.  At best, you'll be totally anonymous.  At worst, 
as is the case with any remailer, some log somewhere could exist that a 
connection to the server took place from w.x.y.z and may even contain the 
to and from addresses used.  In general though, sysadmins are very stupid, 
and seldom go to the trouble of logging this kind of information for 
successful email messages.. typically only failures are logged.

So what is more naive?  To assume the fact so plainly evident in everyones 
face that the vast majority of sysadmins out there are lazy and stupid and 
then just pick one at random and do as I suggested, or to pick one of the 
"anonymous remailers" that make an outright claim to be anonymous, but that 
you have no way of verifying?  One sounds like a shot in the dark with a 
very good chance at hitting something, the other one sounds like an ideal trap.

On another note, if you're clued in enough to even know what an anonymous 
remailer is, where they can be found, and how to use them, I'm sure that "A 
port 25 hack" as you oh-so inaccurately put it would be something easy for 
you to do as well.


>If you don't get it, you have no business trying to architect the 
>structure of our list.

I made a suggestion.  You people that responded so caustically maybe are 
tired of hearing the same suggestion over and over again.  I'm tired of 
getting spam that wastes my time, my bandwidth, space on my mail server, 
and any other number of various and sundry resources.

If I "whine" about getting spam... well so be it.  Just know that you all 
whine about my messages, with far more useless messages, and far less 
reason to be at all upset.

Who are the real whiners here?


-------signature file-------
PGP Key Fingerprint:
446B 7718 B219 9F1E 43DD  8E4A 6BE9 D739 CCC5 7FD7

"I don't think [Linux] will be very successful in the long run."
"My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite 
unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse."
-Ken Thompson, Interview May 1999.

http://www.freebsd.org
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve

http://www.rfnj.org
Radio Free New Jersey - 395 streams - 96kbps @ 44.1khz




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Tue Sep 19 23:09:30 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:09:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, petro wrote:

> 	If it allows *ANY* back trace, it's not anonymous.

That's not necessarily true. I believe both onion routers and ZKS both
provide this (at least in principle).

I also believe there is something in ZKS about their mixing being secure
against themselves...?

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From reports at ipoexpressemail.com  Wed Sep 20 01:10:38 2000
From: reports at ipoexpressemail.com (EDGAR Online)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:10:38 -0700
Subject: CDR: IPO Express: Daily News 09/19/00
Message-ID: <200009200810.BAA02068@mailhost.ostman.com>

******************************************************************************
        This IPO Express report is provided by EDGAR Online, sent to you as
a subscriber to EDGAR Online Premium. If you wish to discontinue receiving
reports or wish to change your email options, go to:

         http://www.edgar-online.com/auth/updateinfo.asp
******************************************************************************

IPO NEWS

* Chiles Offshore Inc began trading. [AMEX:COD]
* INRANGE Technologies Corp  increased its price from $12-$14 to $14-$16. [NASDAQ:INRG]
* KMC Telecom Holdings Inc filed for IPO. [NASDAQ:KMCT]
* Propel Inc  set its price to $17-$19 and  set its number of shares to 23,500,000. [NASDAQ:PRPL]
* Propel Inc added Chase Securities Inc, CS First Boston Corp, Merrill Lynch Pierce Fenner & Smith Inc, Salomon Smith Barney Inc. and ABN AMRO Rothschild to the underwriters list. [NASDAQ:PRPL]
* ViryaNet Ltd  decreased its number of shares from 4,500,000 to 4,000,000. [NASDAQ:VRYA]
* ViryaNet Ltd  set its price to $8. [NASDAQ:VRYA]
* ViryaNet Ltd began trading. [NASDAQ:VRYA]
* ViryaNet Ltd priced at $8 for trading today. [NASDAQ:VRYA]

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/iponews.asp for more news.

/--------------ADVERTISEMENT----------------\
Purchase Business/Credit Reports from Dun & Bradstreet on over 11 million
U.S. businesses. Click on the "Resources" link when you look up SEC filings
for any public company, or search by company name and state at
http://www.edgar.telebase.com.
\-------------------------------------------/

EXPECTED PRICINGS

* CBCT BANCSHARES INC             SEP20                [OTCBB:CBCT]
* OMNISKY CORP                    SEP20-21             [NASDAQ:OMNY]
* TTM TECHNOLOGIES INC            SEP20-21             [NASDAQ:TTMI]
* ZENGINE INC                     SEP20-21             [NASDAQ:ZNGN]
* CURON MEDICAL INC               SEP21-22             [NASDAQ:CURN]
* INRANGE TECHNOLOGIES CORP       SEP21-22             [NASDAQ:INRG]
* EXHAUST TECHNOLOGIES INC        SEP22                [OTCBB:XTEC]
* NEOSURG TECHNOLOGIES INC        SEP22                [NASDAQ SC:NEOS]
* COSINE COMMUNICATIONS INC       SEP25-26             [NASDAQ:COSN]
* HYDRIL CO                       SEP25-26             [NASDAQ:HYDL]
* OPLINK COMMUNICATIONS INC       SEP25-26             [NASDAQ:OPLK]

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/upcoming.asp for more expected pricings.

POPULAR IPO COMPANIES

* RIVERSTONE NETWORKS INC              [NASDAQ:RSTN]
* PLUMTREE SOFTWARE INC                [NASDAQ:PLUM]
* OMM INC                              [NASDAQ:OMMI]
* ARRAY BIOPHARMA INC                  [NASDAQ:ARRY]
* OMNISKY CORP                         [NASDAQ:OMNY]
* INRANGE TECHNOLOGIES CORP            [NASDAQ:INRG]
* CHILES OFFSHORE INC            [P]   [AMEX:COD]
* KYPHON INC                           [NASDAQ:KYPH]
* HARVARD BIOSCIENCE INC               [NASDAQ:HBIO]
* TOMAX CORP                           [NASDAQ:TOMX]

[P] Denotes that the company is already priced.

SHORT-TERM LOCKUP EXPIRATIONS

Company                                              Priced Days   Expires
EPRISE CORP (EPRS)                                  3/23/00  180  9/19/00
INTERMUNE PHARMACEUTICALS INC (ITMN)                3/23/00  180  9/19/00
VIASYSTEMS GROUP INC (VG)                           3/23/00  180  9/19/00
EMACHINES INC (EEEE)                                3/23/00  180  9/19/00
HI-Q WASON INC (HIQW)                               9/21/99  365  9/20/00
ETINUUM INC  (ETIN)                                 3/24/00  180  9/20/00
COMPLETEL EUROPE NV  (CLTL)                         3/27/00  180  9/23/00
ALLOS THERAPEUTICS INC (ALTH)                       3/27/00  180  9/23/00
INTRABIOTICS PHARMACEUTICALS INC (IBPI)             3/27/00  180  9/23/00
MOLDFLOW CORP (MFLO)                                3/27/00  180  9/23/00
WEBSENSE INC (WBSN)                                 3/27/00  180  9/23/00
TELOCITY INC (TLCT)                                 3/28/00  180  9/24/00
ARTISTDIRECT INC (ARTD)                             3/28/00  180  9/24/00
LUMINEX CORP (LMNX)                                 3/30/00  180  9/26/00
ARROWPOINT COMMUNICATIONS INC (ARPT)                3/30/00  180  9/26/00
VALUECLICK INC (VCLK)                               3/30/00  180  9/26/00
ULTICOM INC (ULCM)                                   4/4/00  180  10/1/00
ORATEC INTERVENTIONS INC (OTEC)                      4/4/00  180  10/1/00
KRISPY KREME DOUGHNUTS INC (KREM)                    4/4/00  180  10/1/00
CABOT MICROELECTRONICS CORP (CCMP)                   4/4/00  180  10/1/00
METLIFE INC  (MET)                                   4/4/00  180  10/1/00
VYYO INC (VYYO)                                      4/4/00  180  10/1/00
I3 MOBILE INC (IIIM)                                 4/5/00  180  10/2/00
SANGAMO BIOSCIENCES INC (SGMO)                       4/6/00  180  10/3/00
GOAMERICA INC (GOAM)                                 4/6/00  180  10/3/00
TANOX INC (TNOX)                                     4/6/00  180  10/3/00
LIVEPERSON INC (LPSN)                                4/6/00  180  10/3/00
NUMERICAL TECHNOLOGIES INC (NMTC)                    4/6/00  180  10/3/00
LEXICON GENETICS INC (LEXG)                          4/6/00  180  10/3/00
OPUS360 CORP (OPUS)                                  4/6/00  180  10/3/00

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/lockup.asp for more lockups.

SHORT-TERM QUIET PERIOD EXPIRATIONS

Company                                                 IPO   Expires
SERVICEWARE TECHNOLOGIES INC  (SVCW)                8/25/00  9/19/00

See http://www.edgar-online.com/ipoexpress/quiet.asp for more expirations.

Data and information is provided for informational purposes only, and is
not intended for trading purposes.  Neither EDGAR Online nor any of its content
providers shall be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for
any actions taken in reliance thereon.  By accessing the IPO Express site,
the user agrees not to redistribute the information found therein.

-----ADVERTISEMENT----------------------
Purchase Business/Credit Reports from Dun & Bradstreet on over 11 million
U.S. businesses. Click on the "Resources" link when you look up SEC filings
for any public company, or search by company name and state at
http://www.edgar.telebase.com.
----------------------------------------




From bmoretti at chariot.net.au  Tue Sep 19 18:27:40 2000
From: bmoretti at chariot.net.au (Ben Moretti)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 01:27:40 GMT
Subject:  Rebirth of Guilds
Message-ID: 

[the actual report is well worth reading. i have held privately that the mutual
benefit societies and groups that played an important role in south australia
in the 19th century arose due to the inherent weakness of the state in the
colony, and that these groups would re-arise due to the same reasons. i know
adecdotally that there is a long line of these stretching back -- freemasons,
mechanics institutes, mutual benefit funds, etc -- so it only seems logical as
we move into a weak state mode of history, it would happen again. b.]

http://mitsloan.mit.edu/news/releases/2000/guilds.html

Rebirth of guilds-MIT Sloan researchers see a shift in workers'
organizations


CAMBRIDGE, Mass., September 1, 2000 -- Two researchers from the MIT Sloan
School of Management predict that over the next decade or so, there will be
a rise in guild-type organizations to serve the needs of workers who no
longer have traditional jobs.

"For workers to enjoy fully the opportunities this new economy presents,
they will require institutions to help blunt the greater risks they face,"
said MIT Sloan Professor Thomas Malone, who co-authored the working paper
along with Sloan Research Associate Robert Laubacher.

Guilds could provide to contractors and temporary and part-time workers the
financial security, benefits, career education, and social opportunities
that traditionally were provided by long-term employers.

"We are in a significant period of transition in how work is organized,"
said Malone. "The choices we make now will create the world in which our
children and their children will live."

Over one-quarter of American workers currently do not hold traditional,
full-time jobs, but instead work as independent contractors or as part-time
or temporary employees. Some of these people want full-time jobs but can't
get them; others, many of them working parents, have voluntarily chosen the
freedom and flexibility of working independently. Researchers Malone and
Robert Laubacher, believe that the most mobile of these flexible workers,
e-lancers-electronically connected free-lancers-will grow in number, as the
new economy becomes more dynamic, and teams of individuals come together for
projects and then dissolve when the work is completed.

The guild approach doesn't rely exclusively on the "usual suspects"-employers
and government-to provide traditional job benefits and support. Instead, it
relies on a rich ecology of other organizations to look after the needs of
mobile workers, as they move from assignment to assignment.

"This guild model is a description of what we already see beginning to
happen, a prediction what we think will become more common, and a
recommendation for policy makers, employers, and others to consider," said
Malone.

"Nascent forms of these guilds have already begun to appear," said
Laubacher. "For example, Working Today, a non-profit in New York, provides
low cost health insurance and other services to freelance technology workers
in Silicon Alley. These organizations are coming in to fill the gap."

In addition, existing groups such as professional societies, unions,
community organizations or temporary staffing firms could expand their
offerings to meet more of the needs of their members.

Another added benefit of guilds in this decentralized economy, "Guild
membership might provide the sense of identity that many of us get from
positions in large organizations," said Laubacher.

This research is an outgrowth of the MIT initiative on "Inventing the
Organizations of the 21st Century which explored the new forms of companies
and work settings as we move into this new century. The research is also
based on findings from surveys and interviews conducted by CDI, a
Philadelphia-based Management Recruiting firm, published in "CDI at Work:
21st Century Thinking." For a copy of the complete Malone/Laubacher working
paper, go to: http://ccs.mit.edu/21c/21cwpmain.html and click on working
paper #033.

For nearly a half-century, the MIT Sloan School of Management, based in
Cambridge, Mass., has been one of the world's leading academic sources of
innovation in management theory and practice. With students from more than
60 countries, it develops effective, innovative, and principled leaders who
advance the global economy.

#  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#   is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info: majordomo at bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
#  archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime at bbs.thing.net

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From rsw at MIT.EDU  Tue Sep 19 23:21:49 2000
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 02:21:49 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>; from all@biosys.net on Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:03:47AM -0400
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>  <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <20000920022149.A3399@positron.mit.edu>

Asymmetric  wrote:
> As for my being naive as you claim in a second here, who is really being 
> naive here?  You think that just because the remailer doesn't maintain an 
> active database of nym mappings that it's immdiately impossible for it to 
> be reversed?  You implicitly trust anyone who says "here, use my remailer, 
> I guarantee it's anonymous?"  Get with the program.  One fucking line on a 
> console, in a firewall rule, anywhere along the way could fuck you into 
> losing your anonymity, unless the message was sent encrypted to the 
> remailer, and that's just to start with.

You should read up on Type 1 and Type 2 remailers.  Both involve
encryption.  In the case of Type 2 remailers, you only need to trust
one in the chain that you use in order to be sure that your identity
is securely hidden.

> I think that using a forged header is just as reliable as using an 
> anonymous remailer, and just as anonymous if done right.  There is no "port 
> 25" hack involved.  It's as simple as setting whatever email software you 
> use to use X as it's smtp server, and then entering a nonexistant return 
> address somewhere else.  At best, you'll be totally anonymous.  At worst, 
> as is the case with any remailer, some log somewhere could exist that a 
> connection to the server took place from w.x.y.z and may even contain the 
> to and from addresses used.  In general though, sysadmins are very stupid, 
> and seldom go to the trouble of logging this kind of information for 
> successful email messages.. typically only failures are logged.

Wrong again.  By default in versions of sendmail since 4.9, all sent
mails are logged right along with the failures--and this includes the
IP address from which the connection was made to the SMTP server.
Simply setting your SMTP server is not nearly enough.  If 'they' have
the IP address from which the mail was sent, 'they' have you.  As I
said above, please read up on Type 1 and Type 2 remailers before
making such outrageous claims.

> So what is more naive?  To assume the fact so plainly evident in everyones 
> face that the vast majority of sysadmins out there are lazy and stupid and 
> then just pick one at random and do as I suggested

Finding open relays that don't do logging is difficult at best.

> "anonymous remailers" that make an outright claim to be anonymous, but that 
> you have no way of verifying?

As I said above, in the case of the Type 2 remailer, you only have to
trust one server in the chain, and presumably you can find one that
you're likely to trust not to disclose information to the people from
whom you want to hide your identity.  In the case of a US national,
for example, post through a remailer in a country that the US doesn't
like much--there are plenty of those--and you're fine.  That, or trust
that, for example, the MIT LCS remailer is reasonably secure (and it
is--I know the person who runs it), and make sure it's in your chain.

> very good chance at hitting something

Again, I ask you to produce an example of an open relay that you are
reasonably sure does not do logging.

> I made a suggestion.  You people that responded so caustically maybe are 
> tired of hearing the same suggestion over and over again.  I'm tired of 
> getting spam that wastes my time, my bandwidth, space on my mail server, 
> and any other number of various and sundry resources.

So please filter, and don't complain.  Or unsubscribe.  It's the
responsibility of new readers to peruse the archives.  If you had done
so, you would not have angered those who have heard this argument 10^9
times.

> If I "whine" about getting spam... well so be it.  Just know that you all 
> whine about my messages, with far more useless messages, and far less 
> reason to be at all upset.

No.  The people of the list expect that you have gone over the
archives so that what you say is not repetitive and a waste of time
and bandwidth.  If a bit of time and bandwidth spent now can reinforce
the practice of archive reading before you post, then it is well
spent, and is, in the long run, a net savings of both bandwidth and
time.

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002

5105
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From doit01 at email.msn.com  Wed Sep 20 02:51:34 2000
From: doit01 at email.msn.com (doit01)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 02:51:34 -0700
Subject: CDR: you suck
Message-ID: <000a01c022e8$5eb5be60$2cda183f@computer>

nrrnrnnyr
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From Postmaster at qualcomm.com  Wed Sep 20 03:09:31 2000
From: Postmaster at qualcomm.com (qcpm)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 03:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: you suck
In-Reply-To: <000a01c022e8$5eb5be60$2cda183f@computer>
References: <000a01c022e8$5eb5be60$2cda183f@computer>
Message-ID: <200009201009.DAA17293@enigma.qualcomm.com>

Greetings,

Your recent email message to QUALCOMM has not been delivered due to the 
attachment it included. QUALCOMM does not allow email with certain types of 
attachments due to the possible presence of a computer virus in these files.
Please resend your message without any attachments or compress your 
attachment before sending it.

We apologize for any inconvenience. 

The QUALCOMM Postmasters


> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C022AD.B01C38A0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> nrrnrnnyr

> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C022AD.B01C38A0
> Content-Type: text/html;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> 
> 
>  charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
nrrnrnnyr


> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C022AD.B01C38A0--





From Postmaster at qualcomm.com  Wed Sep 20 05:41:16 2000
From: Postmaster at qualcomm.com (qcpm)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Another privacy-compromising ecommerce bid
In-Reply-To: <001501c022ff$cc08fd80$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
References: <001501c022ff$cc08fd80$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
Message-ID: <200009201241.FAA26054@enigma.qualcomm.com>

Greetings,

Your recent email message to QUALCOMM has not been delivered due to the 
attachment it included. QUALCOMM does not allow email with certain types of 
attachments due to the possible presence of a computer virus in these files.
Please resend your message without any attachments or compress your 
attachment before sending it.

We apologize for any inconvenience. 

The QUALCOMM Postmasters


> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

> ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C022D5.E28CCA70
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> > GOOD MORNING! Today is Sept. 20,

> > and this is...InformationWeek Daily!

> [snip... impute your own quote marks below, since I'm lazy]

> ** New Online Payment Services Debut

> This week brings the debut of two online payment systems that make the =
> same point: Credit cards are an imperfect solution for E-commerce.


> ECharge Corp. USA is testing eCharge Net Account, which is expected to =
> launch later this year. It'll offer consumers a revolving line of credit =
> for online shopping and deduct full or partial payment from their bank =
> or checking accounts. Signed up already is MP3.com, whose customer base =
> of music downloaders is arguably less ingrained in the use of credit =
> cards and more open to options.

> "Everybody keeps talking about solutions to handling micropayments =
> online and alternatives to credit cards," MP3.com marketing executive VP =
> Steve Sheiner says, "but this seems like the first business model that =
> handles small transactions." Besides its infamous stock of 600,000 free =
> music files, MP3.com also sells CDs and other products -- and the number =
> of purchases made on the site is growing.


> ECharge chairman Ron Erickson says that by moving customer data offline, =
> to its own servers, and cutting out the credit-card settlement system, =
> eCharge can offer merchants rates between 0.5% and 1% lower than credit =
> cards and full data on what customers buy.

> [end snip]

> The last paragraph is the significant one.


> ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C022D5.E28CCA70
> Content-Type: text/html;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> 
> 
> 

>  http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> 
> 
> 
> 

> 
> GOOD MORNING! Today is Sept. 20,

> 
> and this is...InformationWeek Daily!

> 
[snip... impute your own quote marks below, since I'm lazy]
 size=3D2>
> 
** New Online Payment Services Debut

> 
This week brings the debut of two online payment systems that make =
> the same=20
> point: Credit cards are an imperfect solution for E-commerce.

> 

> 
ECharge Corp. USA is testing eCharge Net Account, which is expected =
> to launch=20
> later this year. It'll offer consumers a revolving line of credit for =
> online=20
> shopping and deduct full or partial payment from their bank or checking=20
> accounts. Signed up already is MP3.com, whose customer base of music =
> downloaders=20
> is arguably less ingrained in the use of credit cards and more open to=20
> options.

> 
"Everybody keeps talking about solutions to handling =
> micropayments=20
> online and alternatives to credit cards," MP3.com marketing =
> executive VP=20
> Steve Sheiner says, "but this seems like the first business model =
> that=20
> handles small transactions." Besides its infamous stock of 600,000 =
> free=20
> music files, MP3.com also sells CDs and other products -- and the number =
> of=20
> purchases made on the site is growing.

> 

> 
ECharge chairman Ron Erickson says that by moving customer data =
> offline, to=20
> its own servers, and cutting out the credit-card settlement system, =
> eCharge can=20
> offer merchants rates between 0.5% and 1% lower than credit cards and =
> full data=20
> on what customers buy.

> 
[end snip]

> 
The last paragraph is the significant=20
> one.


> ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C022D5.E28CCA70--


> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From all at biosys.net  Wed Sep 20 02:54:24 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 05:54:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920013630.00b4b738@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 22:24 09/19/2000 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 1:03 AM -0400 9/20/00, Asymmetric wrote:
>>At 13:47 09/19/2000 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>(P.S. Lose the toad.com address. Get a clue. Or, since you appear to be 
>>>a luser, "loose the toad.com address.")
>>
>>You keep sending to it yourself.  Mind explaining what the problem is?
>>
>>>And how many anonymously-remailed messages to this list have ever, in 
>>>all the years of this list, included reply blocks? No more than a small 
>>>handful, as I recall seeing.
>>
>>Exactly my point.
>
>A weasler. You previously claimed that remailers routinely allowed this. 
>Note that they usually don't, and certainly not without the remailer 
>blocks present. Given that virtually no such messages made to the CP list 
>have included such blocks, clearly what you claimed was not feasible.

My mistake, I misread.  I thought you were asking how many 
anonymous-remailed messages I had seen to the list.  I would still group 
that as "a small handful" which was my point; That these messages don't 
come all that often, and the benefits of allowing them when they do come 
seem outweighed by the sheer volume of spam.

As for how many I have seen with reply blocks.. in the recent history 
(since I resubscribed to the list) I haven't seen any... nor any anonymous 
messages at all save the one smartass I predicted.  In the old days when I 
was on the list, which was before Julfs' remailer disappeared, they came a 
bit more often.. but still their frequency was quite low.



>This is a lie. Plain and simple. There was Kremvax, but this predated 
>Julf's PENET service by a couple of years. At the time of Julf's service, 
>roughly 1992 to its shutdown in 1996, there were no other such systems. 
>Please name one if you can.

alpha.c2.org, which was shut down in '97.


>Your language above shows that your are you just bullshitting. You can't 
>name a viable competitor, because there weren't any.

See above.

Wait, I have a better idea.  Jump to conclusions and make inaccurate 
statements based on preconceptions.  While you're at it, throw in a good 
dose of the holier-than-thou attitude because you're obviously so fucking 
special.  Wait, you've already got this suggestion nailed.

(To answer your rhetorical question before you ask it; "Do you know who I 
am?!" Yes.  Do I give two shits?  Not a fucking chance in hell.  All the 
history in the world cannot excuse such utterly lame-dicked behavior.)


>And Julf's system has been down for four years. A lifetime in Internet 
>years. Certainly of no relevance whatsover to your plaintiff calls for 
>people to use reply-enable remailers if they wish to post to the list.

I think it's a reasonable SUGGESTION.  It was hardly a call to action.  It 
was simply one suggestion, of several, to try and cut down on the spam.  I 
suppose you're opposed to that though, and probably read each spam message 
you get with a keen eye because everybody deserves to be heard, even the 
spammers!


>Duh. Are you just now figuring this stuff out?

As much as you'd like to believe that, no.  I've been involved with 
cryptography for quite some time.  Not being in your elitist inner-circle, 
as amazing as that may sound.  Wow!


>Duh. Get back to us when you figure out how chained remailers work, with 
>PGP-nested messages. On second thought, _don't_ get back to us.

Who's us?  You an the other loudmouth?


>You have zero understanding of the issues involved.
>
>I regret having wasted even ten minutes today responding to you.

Poor baby.


>This is rich. See my 1992 presentation on Chaumian remailers, given at the 
>first Cypherpunks meeting, in September. See the earlier cited memos from 
>1988-91. See the features I described in detail. Compare to the reality of 
>extant remailers. Then repeat your above comment with a straight face.

I'd rather not.  Plenty of work done since '92.


>Fucking newbies.

Exactly.

Sorry to have made the slightest suggestion that something be done about 
the spam, you obviously love reading it so much that you felt the need to 
attack me because maybe then you wouldn't be able to read it anymore!

A friend of mine brings up a good point, and judging by your hostility, I 
find it entirely plausable.  Maybe in your pathetic self-centered world 
you've found the list to be a perfect target for spam, and all this crap is 
generated by yourself.. would explain why you're so opposed to stopping it.

Why don't you apply your time to something constructive?  I haven't seen a 
single suggestion out of your mouth, ass, or any other orifice that in the 
slightest bit may have helped the situation.  Welcome to the I'm sure I'm 
not the first nor last person to add you to it.


-------signature file-------
PGP Key Fingerprint:
446B 7718 B219 9F1E 43DD  8E4A 6BE9 D739 CCC5 7FD7

"I don't think [Linux] will be very successful in the long run."
"My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite 
unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse."
-Ken Thompson, Interview May 1999.

http://www.freebsd.org
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve

http://www.rfnj.org
Radio Free New Jersey - 395 streams - 96kbps @ 44.1khz




From Postmaster at qualcomm.com  Wed Sep 20 06:17:29 2000
From: Postmaster at qualcomm.com (qcpm)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 06:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <20000920091415.A4669@positron.mit.edu>
References: <20000920022149.A3399@positron.mit.edu>  <20000920091415.A4669@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <200009201317.GAA21798@enigma.qualcomm.com>

Greetings,

Your recent email message to QUALCOMM has not been delivered due to the 
attachment it included. QUALCOMM does not allow email with certain types of 
attachments due to the possible presence of a computer virus in these files.
Please resend your message without any attachments or compress your 
attachment before sending it.

We apologize for any inconvenience. 

The QUALCOMM Postmasters



> --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Disposition: inline

> Jim Choate  wrote:
> > Nah, there's all kinds of ways around that. If it was as simple as
> > grabbing the source address in a sendmail log most of the spammers would
> > have been put out of business a long! time ago.

> Well, we're assuming that one needs anonymity for something more than
> just posting spam.  Presumably, if e.g. the US government wants you,
> they'll subpoena logs and find you.

> > As to finding them, those socialist bastards at ORBS and the like keep
> > handy lists available.

> True enough.

> > Irrelevant. Forge your source IP headers.

> Right.  Except that Asymmetric was claiming that one could simply set
> the SMTP server to one that you believe not to do logging (and
> implicitly, something that does open relaying) and then just change
> your "From" header.  Forging the source IP address works, but it's
> outside the scope of Asymmetric's suggestion, which is what I was
> responding to.

> --
> Riad Wahby
> rsw at mit.edu
> MIT VI-2/A 2002

> 5105

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From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Sep 20 05:26:43 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:26:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <20000920022149.A3399@positron.mit.edu>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote:

> Wrong again.  By default in versions of sendmail since 4.9, all sent
> mails are logged right along with the failures--and this includes the
> IP address from which the connection was made to the SMTP server.

Well that's ALMOST right. Sendmail (and most other programs for that
matter) allow different levels of logging. Tell sendmail not to log and it
won't.

> Finding open relays that don't do logging is difficult at best.

Nah, there's all kinds of ways around that. If it was as simple as
grabbing the source address in a sendmail log most of the spammers would
have been put out of business a long! time ago.

As to finding them, those socialist bastards at ORBS and the like keep
handy lists available.

> > very good chance at hitting something
> 
> Again, I ask you to produce an example of an open relay that you are
> reasonably sure does not do logging.

Irrelevant. Forge your source IP headers.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Sep 20 05:28:58 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:28:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, petro wrote:

> 	The key word in that sentence was "trace", meaning just 
> that--a trace. In the pseudononymous remailers there is a back trace 
> to follow.

Not if you do it right. Hell, forge your source header on sends (as a
starter, there are lots more ways to do this).

> 	Either way, if the ability to map email address to meat space 
> identity is less than very, very hard for a government to do 
> *technically* then it really isn't anonymous.

Agreed. I'd say it isn't anonymous at all, in fact.

It's fortunate the TCP/IP and related protocols are so sloppy and easy to
munge.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Sep 20 05:31:58 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:31:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <39C88B7B.9CD5A78C@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Tom Vogt wrote:

> location is the Tex's Bar'b'que (or something like that - the spelling
> is a little odd) on Millerntorplatz 1, Hamburg, Germany.

That' funny. I'd bet bucks that they've never been to Texas and never
seen'a long-horn...;)

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Sep 20 05:34:00 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:34:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 



    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From robert at cryptorights.org  Wed Sep 20 04:37:54 2000
From: robert at cryptorights.org (Robert Guerra)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:37:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: (draft) Toronto Cypherpunks Sept. 2000 Meeting
Message-ID: 

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From codewhacker at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 20 05:39:19 2000
From: codewhacker at yahoo.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 07:39:19 -0500
Subject: CDR: Another privacy-compromising ecommerce bid
Message-ID: <001501c022ff$cc08fd80$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>

> GOOD MORNING! Today is Sept. 20,

> and this is...InformationWeek Daily!

[snip... impute your own quote marks below, since I'm lazy]

** New Online Payment Services Debut

This week brings the debut of two online payment systems that make the same point: Credit cards are an imperfect solution for E-commerce.


ECharge Corp. USA is testing eCharge Net Account, which is expected to launch later this year. It'll offer consumers a revolving line of credit for online shopping and deduct full or partial payment from their bank or checking accounts. Signed up already is MP3.com, whose customer base of music downloaders is arguably less ingrained in the use of credit cards and more open to options.

"Everybody keeps talking about solutions to handling micropayments online and alternatives to credit cards," MP3.com marketing executive VP Steve Sheiner says, "but this seems like the first business model that handles small transactions." Besides its infamous stock of 600,000 free music files, MP3.com also sells CDs and other products -- and the number of purchases made on the site is growing.


ECharge chairman Ron Erickson says that by moving customer data offline, to its own servers, and cutting out the credit-card settlement system, eCharge can offer merchants rates between 0.5% and 1% lower than credit cards and full data on what customers buy.

[end snip]

The last paragraph is the significant one.

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From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 20 06:02:55 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:02:55 -0400
Subject: Brands' Book on PKI Just Published by MIT Press
Message-ID: 

It looks like Dr. Stefan Brands' book, "Rethinking Public Key Infrastructures
and Digital Certificates; Building in Privacy",  with outstanding
discussion of, among other things, ;-), internet bearer transactions, has
gone through the mill at MIT press and come out the other side.

If you couldn't get a copy of it when Stefan offered it as a self-published
version of his doctoral thesis, now's the time to get it.

Cheers,
RAH

--- begin forwarded text



From rsw at MIT.EDU  Wed Sep 20 06:14:15 2000
From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:14:15 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 07:26:43AM -0500
References: <20000920022149.A3399@positron.mit.edu> 
Message-ID: <20000920091415.A4669@positron.mit.edu>

Jim Choate  wrote:
> Nah, there's all kinds of ways around that. If it was as simple as
> grabbing the source address in a sendmail log most of the spammers would
> have been put out of business a long! time ago.

Well, we're assuming that one needs anonymity for something more than
just posting spam.  Presumably, if e.g. the US government wants you,
they'll subpoena logs and find you.

> As to finding them, those socialist bastards at ORBS and the like keep
> handy lists available.

True enough.

> Irrelevant. Forge your source IP headers.

Right.  Except that Asymmetric was claiming that one could simply set
the SMTP server to one that you believe not to do logging (and
implicitly, something that does open relaying) and then just change
your "From" header.  Forging the source IP address works, but it's
outside the scope of Asymmetric's suggestion, which is what I was
responding to.

--
Riad Wahby
rsw at mit.edu
MIT VI-2/A 2002

5105
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From bob at quik.com  Wed Sep 20 09:14:32 2000
From: bob at quik.com ($8,241.87 in just one month !!)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:14:32
Subject: CDR: YOU MAY NEVER SEE THIS AGAIN !!!
Message-ID: Prospect Mailer 20009:14:32 AM

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From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Sep 20 09:14:51 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:14:51 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Another privacy-compromising ecommerce bid
Message-ID: 

>Your recent email message to QUALCOMM has not been delivered due to the 
>attachment it included. QUALCOMM does not allow email with certain types of 

Wait .. these people MAKE e-mail software ?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha





From all at biosys.net  Wed Sep 20 06:36:47 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:36:47 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <20000920022149.A3399@positron.mit.edu>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920080634.00b0be00@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 02:21 09/20/2000 -0400, Riad S. Wahby wrote:


>You should read up on Type 1 and Type 2 remailers.  Both involve
>encryption.  In the case of Type 2 remailers, you only need to trust
>one in the chain that you use in order to be sure that your identity
>is securely hidden.

I do understand how both types work, however, the opportunity for 
subterfuge is always present. I was making a point that the assumed 
security of a remailer should not factor in if you intend to put yourself 
at risk.  Assumptions are dangerous all over the place, and if your 
assumption could get you into trouble, it's better to verify it or not 
instead of just proceeding blindly, if at all possible.


>Wrong again.  By default in versions of sendmail since 4.9, all sent
>mails are logged right along with the failures--and this includes the
>IP address from which the connection was made to the SMTP server.
>Simply setting your SMTP server is not nearly enough.  If 'they' have
>the IP address from which the mail was sent, 'they' have you.  As I
>said above, please read up on Type 1 and Type 2 remailers before
>making such outrageous claims.

What is the outrageous claim?  That someone could purposely set up an 
insecure remailer, claim that it's secure, and that people could then 
unwittingly use it to incriminate themselves?

As for Sendmail, you are correct; Sendmail defaults to a log level of nine, 
but it's utterly admin configurable, and with successful messages logs the 
delivery as successful.  This setting is also only present in the default 
configuration if you get the tarball from sendmail.  Options vary by OS 
vendor, and loglevels may be different (by default) on a newly installed OS 
that ships with sendmail (most unix variants, if not all, do) or if 
sendmail was installed via a package distribution method.

This could go on and on, but it's twisting the point I was making a great 
deal and turning the argument away from the topic that started it.  I'm not 
debating the relative merits of remailers, I know they serve a need that 
cannot be duplicated with great ease, and honestly my comment about faking 
the return addresses was in no way to say that this method could replace 
remailers; I was just pointing out that it is a far stretch of the 
imagination to call it "port 25 hacking" or whatever Tim said.

I'm going to stop myself here.. The original email I sent was simply a 
question about what could be done to possibly quell the flow of spam 
generated by this list, followed by a few suggestions.  It's gotten utterly 
out of hand because somebody apparently took it as a personal attack, and 
responded with a series of attacks of his own.

As I said before, if [you] (the reader on the list) don't want to hear 
these questions, then what's good for the goose is good for the 
gander.  Filter my emails if you like; It'll be a lot easier for you to 
filter them automatically than it will be to filter the spam messages in 
any event.


>Finding open relays that don't do logging is difficult at best.

I agree they are not easier to find than just trusting the word of someone 
that a particular remailer is secure, but in my opinion that is ass 
backwards.  Trust should be a lot harder to earn than simply doing a little 
legwork.  You suggested finding a remailer in a country unfriendly with the 
one that is likely to come after you for posting whatever you wish to post, 
so that it will be harder for law enforcement to pry any information out of 
the hands of the remailer operator; I find the same logic applies to doing 
the header forging.  If you're in the US as in your example, using an smtp 
server in Iraq (for example) to send your email through is a pretty safe 
bet that even if it logs every line of the file including the message body, 
that the chances of them cooperating one iota with the authorities is 
pretty small.


>As I said above, in the case of the Type 2 remailer, you only have to
>trust one server in the chain, and presumably you can find one that
>you're likely to trust not to disclose information to the people from
>whom you want to hide your identity.  In the case of a US national,
>for example, post through a remailer in a country that the US doesn't
>like much--there are plenty of those--and you're fine.  That, or trust
>that, for example, the MIT LCS remailer is reasonably secure (and it
>is--I know the person who runs it), and make sure it's in your chain.

Just as a preamble here, I'll say flat-out that I totally understand the 
need some people have for anonymous remailers.

That said, I have not personally had occasion to use one yet, or need 
to.  I have been in situations where anonymity would have possibly been 
desirable to some, but more often then not I have chosen to simply waive 
any kind of real anonymity, and just get out there with what I was doing.

I used to run a very large site critical of the CoS, and I kept 
-everything- online.  My domain name records were forged, and I didn't go 
out of my way to attach my actual name to anything, but I didn't go to any 
great lengths to hide it either.  When the CoS found out about it, they 
sent Ms. Kobrin after me.  She claimed she wanted to send me a hardcopy of 
their copyrights on the material that I had posted, because I told her if 
she could prove ownership of any of it, that I would take it down.  I told 
her that an email copy of the information would be sufficient, and that she 
should send it straight away.  I even took the material down and gave them 
two weeks to produce.  When they didn't, I emailed them and put the 
material back online.  This part repeated, and I repeated my request.

Instead, I received another nasty letter, and then a few days later a call 
from my upstream provider.  They denied her request to deliver up my name 
and address, but told me that if I didn't take the information down that it 
would be a violation of the service agreement, and that they would 
disconnect the frame relay.  I explained to their (the ISPs) lawyer the 
situation, and that they did not actually own the copyrights in 
question.  He responded with "I know, but considering their history, they 
are very willing to take us to court over this, and honestly we don't want 
to deal with that.  Take it down or we shut you down, we don't care who's 
right, we just don't want a lawsuit."

Needless to say, faced with the entire site being removed, I removed the 
materials.


> > very good chance at hitting something
>
>Again, I ask you to produce an example of an open relay that you are
>reasonably sure does not do logging.

After my diatribe above you ask me to find a server that I *trust* is not 
doing logging?  In that case I'll trust only those that I admin, so that 
even in the case that they are doing logging, I can remove the logs myself 
afterwards.

Finding an open relay first off is easy though.. www.orbs.org.  Finding one 
that doesn't log, difficult to verify logging or not, so you just look for 
one run by an entity unlikely to cooperate, as we covered before.


>So please filter, and don't complain.  Or unsubscribe.  It's the
>responsibility of new readers to peruse the archives.  If you had done
>so, you would not have angered those who have heard this argument 10^9
>times.

THAT is exactly what I'm talking about.  I wasn't complaining, at least not 
as loudly as some of the rest.  I was trying to get something -done- and 
there is a difference.

As far as I'm concerned, if people don't want to hear this again, then THEY 
can filter or unsubscribe.  I personally like to believe any amount of 
discussion on this list is more meaningful than the spam, even if it's all 
been said and done before.

It is an open list after all right?


>No.  The people of the list expect that you have gone over the
>archives so that what you say is not repetitive and a waste of time
>and bandwidth.  If a bit of time and bandwidth spent now can reinforce
>the practice of archive reading before you post, then it is well
>spent, and is, in the long run, a net savings of both bandwidth and
>time.

I see.  But trying to find a way to save even more time and bandwidth by 
even attempting to figure out a solution to this problem is not as valuable?

It comes down to a simple bit of confusion on my part.  I cannot understand 
the mentality of someone who has the time and resources to effectively 
combat the spam on this list, and yet who does not have the time or 
resource to either respond in a somewhat civil fashion, or to just delete 
the message along with the rest of the refuse.

You seemed to be a bit more level headed, so while I still totally disagree 
that it's a waste of time to try and figure a way around this problem, I 
haven't utterly lost respect for you as I have with Tim.  "Pillar of the 
community" or not, the guy is an utter asshole.


-------signature file-------
PGP Key Fingerprint:
446B 7718 B219 9F1E 43DD  8E4A 6BE9 D739 CCC5 7FD7

"I don't think [Linux] will be very successful in the long run."
"My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite 
unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse."
-Ken Thompson, Interview May 1999.

http://www.freebsd.org
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve

http://www.rfnj.org
Radio Free New Jersey - 395 streams - 96kbps @ 44.1khz




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 20 09:44:17 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:44:17 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920080634.00b0be00@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000918170717.00b339e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919075147.00b4d490@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000920004433.00b85a58@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000920080634.00b0be00@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 

At 9:36 AM -0400 9/20/00, Asymmetric wrote:
>
>I do understand how both types work, however, the opportunity for 
>subterfuge is always present. I was making a point that the assumed 
>security of a remailer should not factor in if you intend to put 
>yourself at risk.  Assumptions are dangerous all over the place, and 
>if your assumption could get you into trouble, it's better to verify 
>it or not instead of just proceeding blindly, if at all possible.

And yet you have repeatedly blathered on about how "forging headers" 
is a good alternative to anonymous remailers. Your explanations 
indicate you just haven't grokked the level of misdirection and 
untraceability behind the use of N nested remailers, encrypted at 
each stage.
>
>What is the outrageous claim?  That someone could purposely set up 
>an insecure remailer, claim that it's secure, and that people could 
>then unwittingly use it to incriminate themselves?

There has never been any doubt that some particular remailer may be 
logging and correlating: this is why N remailers are recommended, 
with the heuristics we've been discussing here since 1992. (For 
example: encrypt at every state, a la Mixmaster-type remailers, 
include one's _own_ remailer in the chain, loop multiple times, etc.)

You keep tossing about the "insecure remailer" claim, seemingly not 
knowing the implications of N-chained remailing. Hint: there is 
essentially nothing a particular remailer can do to such a chained 
message except see where he's being asked to send it and correlate 
this with where it came from. He can't see inside the packet (for 
obvious reasons), he can't alter the packet (because then later 
decryptions fail and the packet gets dumped), and he can't even 
change the remailer he is supposed to deliver to. All he can do is 
correlate, which is, of course, bad. Hence the role of multiple hops.

Still a far cry ahead of your oft-mentioned "mail header forgery" 
alleged solution.
>
>It comes down to a simple bit of confusion on my part.  I cannot 
>understand the mentality of someone who has the time and resources 
>to effectively combat the spam on this list, and yet who does not 
>have the time or resource to either respond in a somewhat civil 
>fashion, or to just delete the message along with the rest of the 
>refuse.
>
>You seemed to be a bit more level headed, so while I still totally 
>disagree that it's a waste of time to try and figure a way around 
>this problem, I haven't utterly lost respect for you as I have with 
>Tim.  "Pillar of the community" or not, the guy is an utter asshole.

"Somewhat civil fashion" and "a bit more level headed."

You're also a pompous ass. At least you called me "Tim." Most pompous 
asses here fall into the pseudo-Brit mode of calling me "Mr. May" 
when they are being pompous.

As for your comment that you have never used an anonymous remailer, I 
had already concluded as much.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 20 10:01:00 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:01:00 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: CueCat tells tales...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000920122544.01b58480@mail.well.com>
References: <4.3.0.20000920122544.01b58480@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 

At 12:27 PM -0400 9/20/00, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>Peter, this deal was inked by Wired magazine's marketing folks, and 
>I have precisely zero contact with them. In other words, I have no 
>clue, but can probably forward you in the right direction. --Declan

I guess this really does mark the transmogrification of "Wired" into 
a Panopticon-friendly corporatocracy.

(Not that I ever expected otherwise of a company driven by glossy 
ads. The crypto and anarchy stuff is just a hint of danger to 
increase the sex appeal so more ads can be sold.)

>
>At 12:15 9/20/2000 -0400, Peter Trei wrote:
>>Well, well well, this is interesting....
>>
>>Along with my most recent issue of Wired (yes,
>>I subscribe) I got a a little box containing
>>a 'CueCat'. This is a barcode scanner shaped
>>like a stylized kittycat, made by
>>Digital Convergence.
>>...
>>
>>Well, it turns out that it does a little more
>>than just point my browser at an advertiser's
>>site. It apparently also sends a per-device
>>serial number (bound to my registration,
>>including the usual sacrifice of personal data)
>>along with the barcode data, back to Digital
>>Convergence.


>>
>>DC thus gets to build a profile of my interests,
>>bound to the name, address, etc I provided at
>>registration.

Sounds like another chance for "mixes" at physical meetings. Put your 
Cue Cat in a bowl with a bunch of others. Of course, folks may not 
want more physical spam arriving in their mailboxes.

Or provide false addresses. Perhaps the addresses of Cue Cat or Wired staff?

>>
>>DC does have a moderately good privacy policy
>>stated on their web page, and claims they
>>will never voluntarily release per-person
>>data to third parties.

Being able to fake sincerity is essential to operating in the modern 
Internet business environment. Platitudes about customer privacy are 
necessary. Remember eToys.


BTW, I just flipped through a copy of "Wired" in one of our 
bookstores. First time I've done so in a couple of years. Still 
dominated by ads, and blurbs on "cool stuff" that doesn't look very 
interesting to me.

When "Wired" came out, it was heavily criticized for its "ransom 
note" style, and its clutter and visual confusion. Interestingly, now 
the very news stands themselves have become exemplars of this visual 
confusion: go into any "Borders" or "Barnes and Noble" and see 
literally 1500 magazines crowding the shelves. A dozen magazines on 
skateboarding, several dozen on "style".... magazines for women, for 
persons of peircing, for transgendered pizza deliverypersons, for any 
conceivable group.

The whole news stand looks like a ransom note.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Sep 20 10:15:10 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:15:10 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: CueCat tells tales...
Message-ID: <1bf10e8a38075e19f722b439422c8a10@melontraffickers.com>

"Anyone who used DCs CueCat software has had their information stolen
from the DC servers! This comes from an e-mail being sent in by zillions
of people warning them (and also apologizing by giving a $10 gift
certificate)."

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/09/18/1129226mode=nested





From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep 20 10:47:16 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:47:16 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: RIAA seizures
References: <7db22704af8837abb0841b0813575bd0@melontraffickers.com> <3.0.6.32.20000919133636.00840610@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <39C8F824.E30CD268@sunder.net>

David Honig wrote:
> 
> At 03:17 PM 9/19/00 -0400, sunder wrote:
> >"A. Melon" wrote:
> >>
> >> Funny, the article doesnt say
> >> how the pirates subverted the
> >> encryption in order to make copies.
> >
> >Call me slow, if you like, but I don't get your point.
> >Since when do *Audio* CD's use CSS encryption?
> 
> I think the lines that followed reveal the author's sarcasm:
> 
> >Oh, you dont have to.
> >Listening, Kaplan?
> 
> A. Melon is probably alluding to something Kaplan doesn't 'get':
> To copy a DVD you don't need DeCSS.  Bits are bits.

Um, yeah, but this wasn't about DVD's, it was about CD's, so the
"sarcasm" is totally misplaced, hence my "WTF? is A Melon smoking?"
comment diguised as "Call me slow, but..."

Now, if the kid in the dorm was pirating DVD's, yeah, that would 
be understandable.



-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep 20 10:50:51 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:50:51 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu> 
Message-ID: <39C8F8FB.76E55DE4@sunder.net>

Tim May wrote:
> 
> Nitwit, this idea has been proposed many times. Choate even does
> this, unfortunately, to all traffic flowing through his node.
> 
> I used to think that nitwits were their own punishment. I now have
> come to the conclusion that it's long past due that we stoke the
> furnaces....

And this is why socialism in any form is a bad idea.  It prevents
evolution in action from culling the morons.  In the olden days these
guys would have been sabertoothed tiger fodder.

Let's face it, shit like hotmail, AOL, MSN, and their cousins are really
socialism in disguise.  They allow the morons access to what they 
shouldn't have.  They don't need to be on the net, they should be 
watching TV getting brainwashed while they enjoy their favorite pisswater
beer.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Sep 20 10:55:45 2000
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 10:55:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: CueCat tells tales...
In-Reply-To: <1bf10e8a38075e19f722b439422c8a10@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, A. Melon wrote:

> "Anyone who used DCs CueCat software has had their information stolen
> from the DC servers! This comes from an e-mail being sent in by zillions
> of people warning them (and also apologizing by giving a $10 gift
> certificate)."
> 
> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/09/18/1129226mode=nested

Well, now we know how much value they place on people's private
information.

 $10.00 (Actually not even that, when you realize you have to spend more
money with them to use it!)

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."




From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Sep 20 11:13:14 2000
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:13:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: RIAA seizures
In-Reply-To: <39C8F824.E30CD268@sunder.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, sunder wrote:

> David Honig wrote:
> > >Oh, you dont have to.
> > >Listening, Kaplan?
> > 
> > A. Melon is probably alluding to something Kaplan doesn't 'get':
> > To copy a DVD you don't need DeCSS.  Bits are bits.
> 
> Um, yeah, but this wasn't about DVD's, it was about CD's, so the
> "sarcasm" is totally misplaced, hence my "WTF? is A Melon smoking?"
> comment diguised as "Call me slow, but..."
> 
> Now, if the kid in the dorm was pirating DVD's, yeah, that would 
> be understandable.

Actually I can see this case being used as an excuse to encrypt all CDs.
(Not that it would have prevented anyone from copying them.)  They do not
seem to care if everyone has to buy new equiptment or spend a few dollars
more on CDs, as long as they can increase their stranglehold on how people
obtain music.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk  Wed Sep 20 03:35:23 2000
From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:35:23 +0100
Subject: CDR: Asymmetrical spam again
Message-ID: <39C892EB.8B1C75FC@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>

Asymmetric wrote:
 
> >>That the list be changed so that un_registered email addresses cannot send
> >>messages to it?  This spam is getting ridiculous.

[...snip...]

> The benefits of having the list open to u_nsubscribed postings seem far
> outweighed by the cost in time spent by everyone filtering messages and
> server resources that could be better spent running dnetc if nothing else
> ;). It's just auxiliary that I've never seen an anonymous post to the list
> in the past when I subscribed, nor more recently since I
> resubscribed.  Undoubtedly some smartass will send an anonymous message to
> the list now just to say "see!"

[...snip...]

Listen carefully. I will say this only once. Well, twice actually
because the first attempt at posting this bounced.  

All you say is true.

Moderated and closed lists are good ideas. Such good ideas that nearly
every mailing list in the world is closed and moderated. But maybe, just
maybe, there is some reason for an open, unmoderated list. Just one in
the whole world. This is that list.

Or maybe there are some loonies out there who for motives of
their own (that you might or might not approve of, as if they cared),
wish to read an open, unmoderated list.   These are those loonies.
If you don't like it, or them,  you can join another list. No-ones
stopping you. You can even make your own list if you want. 

It's like someone visits a farm and complains that the place is full of
animals... or a farmer visits the city and moans about all those
houses... 

> What about just creating another list (closed-posting) and then just
> allowing people to choose which to subscribe to?  Obviously, the
> open-posting list would be subscribed to the closed posting list, but not
> the other way around.. so at the risk of missing the massively important
> anonymous message that has yet to be sent, I could eliminate some of this spam?

Another good suggestion. So good I think someone made it back in about
1995 (or was it 1997?). Feel free to create such a list yourself, if you
want another one.


Ken




From vab at metanet.org  Wed Sep 20 08:37:53 2000
From: vab at metanet.org (V. Alex Brennen)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:37:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: PGP Key-signing Party (fwd)
Message-ID: 

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From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep 20 03:03:39 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:03:39 +0200
Subject: CDR: europe physical meeting
Message-ID: <39C88B7B.9CD5A78C@ricardo.de>


update on time and especially location:


final time is: 30/Sep/2000, 16:00 (20000930160000)

location is the Tex's Bar'b'que (or something like that - the spelling
is a little odd) on Millerntorplatz 1, Hamburg, Germany.

I have started a little webpage with links to maps, etc. I will be
adding a couple of photos of the place to make finding it trivial. I
think I will have photos roughly 24h from now.

hit http://www.lemuria.org/cpunk.html for that webpage.


more updates coming. if you have any questions, send me a mail.




From LISTMEMBER-- at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 20 12:18:44 2000
From: LISTMEMBER-- at yahoo.com (LISTMEMBER-- at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:18:44
Subject: CDR: READRITE FORMS FIBER OPTICS COMPANY!!!!!!!   
Message-ID: <200005200219.KAA27531@VISI.>

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From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 20 09:27:39 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:27:39 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: CueCat tells tales...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000920122544.01b58480@mail.well.com>

Peter, this deal was inked by Wired magazine's marketing folks, and I have 
precisely zero contact with them. In other words, I have no clue, but can 
probably forward you in the right direction. --Declan


At 12:15 9/20/2000 -0400, Peter Trei wrote:
>Well, well well, this is interesting....
>
>Along with my most recent issue of Wired (yes,
>I subscribe) I got a a little box containing
>a 'CueCat'. This is a barcode scanner shaped
>like a stylized kittycat, made by
>Digital Convergence.
>
>See:
>www.digitalconvergence.com,
>www.crq.com, and
>www.cuecat.com
>
>
>The idea is that I hook this up to my computer,
>install Digital Convergence's software, register
>with DC online (through, I note, a completely
>unsecured web form), and then, if I see an
>interesting ad, I can swipe the barcode in the
>ad instead of laboriously typing in a URL (at
>least some of the ads in this issue of Wired
>have only a barcode - no URL).
>
>Well, it turns out that it does a little more
>than just point my browser at an advertiser's
>site. It apparently also sends a per-device
>serial number (bound to my registration,
>including the usual sacrifice of personal data)
>along with the barcode data, back to Digital
>Convergence. This functionality is not spelled
>out on their web page, which talks of taking
>users 'directly' to vendor websites.
>
>DC thus gets to build a profile of my interests,
>bound to the name, address, etc I provided at
>registration.
>
>DC does have a moderately good privacy policy
>stated on their web page, and claims they
>will never voluntarily release per-person
>data to third parties.
>
>[It's a good thing that they say 'voluntarily',
>since the biggest item on their home page is a
>confession that they were successfully hacked
>and all the personal data may already have been
>copied! To their credit, they are up front about
>this.]
>
>A lot of people have been looking at this
>device for purposes not sanctioned by DC.
>I'll leave it to the intelligent reader to
>find pages which tell you how to:
>
>* read the barcodes with your own software,
>   which need not bother telling DC what you're
>   doing.
>
>* generate your own barcodes - this is the neat
>   application, because the CueCat becomes a
>   general purpose BC reader.
>
>* disable the serial number with a stroke of an
>   Xacto knife.
>
>or
>
>* re-prog the EEPROM with a new serial number.
>
>DC has been sending out Bigfoot letters to some
>of the amateur developers, and appears to think
>that these have actually had a significant
>effect.
>
>-----
>
>A question for Declan: Has Wired supplied DC with
>serial number <-> subscriber binding data?
>
>FWIW, I have decided NOT to install this device.
>
>Peter Trei




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 20 09:43:21 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:43:21 -0400
Subject: CDR:  Rebirth of Guilds
Message-ID: 

Speaking of the devil...

Cheers,
RAH

--- begin forwarded text



From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 20 05:53:26 2000
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 12:53:26 GMT
Subject: CDR: Re: was: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: 

Marcel Popescu writes:
>From: "Trei, Peter" 
>
> > Imagine if the software business were like this - that the programmers
> > of the late 40's had formed an American Programmers Association,
> > and it was unlawful for anyone without APA certification to write
> > code for money.
>
>Some people are trying to do this. See for example
>http://www.colosseumbuilders.com/american.htm [I especially find the "no
>foreign competition" (aka "no H1-B") disgusting. Tim May notwithstanding, 
>we
>DO compete with the americans - and a lot of us are better.]

What a hoot!  Thanks for the pointer. I don't know who these bozos
are, but their web site reads like the product of a bunch of high
school dropouts.  Guilds are of course dangerous and a bad idea,
for a long list of reasons that we've been over on this list
dozens of times.  Fortunately, no one is likely to take these
"programmers" seriously.

As a long-time software designer and implementer, I can
confidently say that anyone who believes there is no shortage
of programmers either isn't a programmer himself or has let his
skill set get way out of date.  And no, I don't live or work
anywhere near Silicon Valley either.  (Apparently, these folks
believe that it is the responsibility of their employers to
train them - they really need to take charge of their own
careers.)

They, as well as the academics whose works they have links to,
apparently believe that all those job postings in the papers and
on web sites are a vast right wing conspiracy designed to allow
the Evil Big Corporations to hire foreign programmers for peanuts
thru the H-1B program.

Mark, don't worry, the real programmers among us aren't afraid to
compete (actually, right now, there's plenty of work for everyone
who is competent so there's little need for real competetition).
Fortunately, these losers are unlikely to be successful in their
organizational and lobbying efforts.

- GH

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Sep 20 10:24:15 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:24:15 -0400
Subject: CDR: pc image-doctoring
Message-ID: 


            University Inserts Black Student
            Among Whites in Photo 
            The Associated Press

            MADISON, Wis. (AP) - Hoping to illustrate its diverse
            enrollment, the University of Wisconsin at Madison says it
            doctored a photo on a brochure cover by inserting a black
            student in a crowd of white football fans. 

            "We did it in this one instance, and it really was an error in
            judgment," University publications director Al Friedman said
            Tuesday. 
..snip..
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAZQFNWCDC.html





From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 20 10:29:30 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:29:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: CueCat tells tales...
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.0.20000920122544.01b58480@mail.well.com>
 
Message-ID: 

At 10:01 AM -0700 on 9/20/00, Tim May wrote:


> The whole news stand looks like a ransom note.
>
> --Tim May

Definitely one for my .sig file...

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The whole news stand looks like a ransom note." --Tim May




From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 20 11:19:51 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:19:51 -0400
Subject: CDR: Washington, DC RSA patent expiration party TONIGHT
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000920141938.01b52140@mail.well.com>

We may not be sponsored by a half-dozen dot coms, but we're going to have 
even more fun. :) If you're in the DC area, join us to toast the official 
end of the patent at midnight tonight. --Declan




                Peter Wayner and Declan McCullagh
                             present
               The End of Patent 4,405,829 Party
                 Wednesday, September 20, 2000
              7 pm 'til the official end at midnight
                 in Adams Morgan, Washington, DC

Why: Some say that US Patent 4,405,829 suppressed a wonderful
technology by giving one company a monopoly on an algorithm. Others
say that the patent ensured that there was sufficient financial
backing that helped develop the technology. RSA did use its legal
rights under the patent to pressure Phil Zimmermann when he developed
PGP. In any case, the debate is now over. Come celebrate the algorithm
developed by Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir and Len Adleman that gave us
privacy and authentication for the web.

To RSVP and for directions, email declan at well.com or pcw at flyzone.com 




From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org  Wed Sep 20 07:25:54 2000
From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:25:54 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: CDR: Altivore -- an alternative to Carnivore
Message-ID: 



http://www.networkice.com/altivore/default.htm

It will be interesting to see what the FBI's response is.


Ph.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Sep 20 14:43:57 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:43:57 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
Message-ID: <6a6af60bd5947286e74d7a2e7450c04c@melontraffickers.com>

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Asymmetric wrote:

> My mistake, I misread.  I thought you were asking how many
> anonymous-remailed messages I had seen to the list.  I would still group
> that as "a small handful" which was my point; That these messages don't
> come all that often, and the benefits of allowing them when they do come
> seem outweighed by the sheer volume of spam.

You're probably one of those people who think that A. Melon, Nomen Nescio,
An Metet, Secret Squirrel, etc., are actually individuals' personas.

Are you subscribed to toad.com? A *lot* of legitimate posts are dropped by 
that server.

I see at least 10 anonymous posts a day.

-S.R.




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep 20 05:54:49 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:54:49 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
References: 
Message-ID: <39C8B399.5D66C5DB@ricardo.de>

Jim Choate wrote:
> > location is the Tex's Bar'b'que (or something like that - the spelling
> > is a little odd) on Millerntorplatz 1, Hamburg, Germany.
> 
> That' funny. I'd bet bucks that they've never been to Texas and never
> seen'a long-horn...;)

probably. but they serve good burgers (not the fast-food variety). and
besides, most of what they sell you as "original german" over there has
probably no connections whatsoever to .de as well. :)




From ectrade at email.com.cn  Wed Sep 20 15:08:31 2000
From: ectrade at email.com.cn (ectrade at email.com.cn)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:08:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: ECTrade.com--200 Trade Leads Updated Everyday!
Message-ID: <200009202208.PAA15682@www.ectrade.com>

Dear Sir/Madamn,

     
     ********************************************
     This is not spam. You have at one point 
     requested information on Internet business 
     opportunities. However if you do wish to be 
     removed permanently from this list simply 
     click the link at the bottom of the email. 
     ********************************************



ECTrade.com--200 Trade Leads Updated Everyday!
             
You will find 100,000 trade leads to buy, sell, 
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  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  advertise your offer to buy, sell, ...
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  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  posts your ads to more than 50 most famous
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3.Add your site
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  drives traffic to your website; 

4.Showroom
  ~~~~~~~~
  set up your own product homepage;
  http://product.ectrade.com
  
5.Global Search 
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  search among millions of trade leads from
  the world''s largest eight BBSs.

6.Biz Logbook
  ~~~~~~~~~~~
  A list of all your promotion job done in 
  ECTrade and your visitor''s clicks and references;

7.Mailing list
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~
  helps you to sent emails to your own email list;

8.Online Address book and Bookmarks;
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10.Information on international Exhibitions and Fairs
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If you do not want to receive emails again from us, please simply click or go to the following Url: 
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to remove your email from our list.




From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org  Wed Sep 20 15:07:46 2000
From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:07:46 -0600
Subject: CDR: Re: Would it be so much to ask...
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote:

> Asymmetric  wrote:
> > As for my being naive as you claim in a second here, who is really being
> > naive here?  You think that just because the remailer doesn't maintain an
> > active database of nym mappings that it's immdiately impossible for it to
> > be reversed?  You implicitly trust anyone who says "here, use my remailer,
> > I guarantee it's anonymous?"  Get with the program.  One fucking line on a
> > console, in a firewall rule, anywhere along the way could fuck you into   
> > losing your anonymity, unless the message was sent encrypted to the
> > remailer, and that's just to start with.
> 
> You should read up on Type 1 and Type 2 remailers.  Both involve
> encryption.  In the case of Type 2 remailers, you only need to trust
> one in the chain that you use in order to be sure that your identity
> is securely hidden.
  
That's not even 100% correct. If you are chaining, and the first server in
the chain is evil, all that the admin can tell is that you are using a    
remailer. The content of the message, and the final recipient, are not    
known. (A good case for generating random cover traffic...)


-S.R.




From reeza at flex.com  Wed Sep 20 19:21:49 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:21:49 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009210050.UAA30710@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920162033.00d61e10@flex.com>

At 08:31 PM 20/09/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote:
 >
 >> Subscibe to a list that filters out the CDR: from the subject as Jim has
 >> made it clear that he is going to continue adding this to the subject
 >> line. On the openpgp.net list the subject is:
 >
 >You've got a right to filter, I've got a right to give you something to
 >filter...

Logical fallacy alert - you have reversed the time-sequence of these events.
Before you started adding the idiotic tag, there was no need to filter it out.





From reeza at flex.com  Wed Sep 20 19:28:09 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:28:09 -1000
Subject: CDR: More COTUS rants...
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000919200444.00cb8ce0@flex.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000919200444.00cb8ce0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000920155608.00c81100@flex.com>

At 12:12 AM 20/09/00 -0700, petro wrote:
 >>At 08:39 PM 19/09/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
 >>>
 >>>And they say I'm half-baked?...I'm not alone.
 >>>                 ^^^^^^^^^^
 >>>Findlaw: The Constitution and your CD's
 >>>
 >>>http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/columns/f1.hamlton.copyright.09.19/
 >>
 >>404.
 >
 >	Doubleclicking on that link gives me a 404 as well, but a
 >little searching finds
 >http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/columns/fl.hamilton.copyright.09.19/.
 >
 >It seems Mr. C  typed this one in by hand and did a fl => f1
 >translation in the process.

No, he says he did the cut and past [sic] thing, see below.

Just 'cuz I'm an asshole, this is what I've been dealing with offlist.

At 06:25 PM 20/09/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
 >On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Reese wrote:
 >> At 07:21 AM 20/09/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
 >>>On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Reese wrote:
 >>>>At 08:39 PM 19/09/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
 >>>>>
 >>>>>And they say I'm half-baked?...I'm not alone.
 >>>>>                 ^^^^^^^^^^
 >>>>>Findlaw: The Constitution and your CD's
 >>>>>
 >>>>>http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/columns/f1.hamlton.copyright.09.19/
 >>>
 >>>Then work on the 1-l thing since I had to cut and paste manualy.
 >>
 >> what 1-1 thing?  are you telling me you fucked up cut & paste?
 >
 >What cut and past you dipshit, I did it MANUALY. You can't even read what
 >I wrote and you're so bent on causing shit here you can't even go the the
 >CNN homepage and see it there (it's why I included the title).

What cut and past [sic]?  The cut & paste you reference.  What did you
think, the cut and past [sic] from a Southpark cartoon?  Heh, and you
think I need to learn to read, you can't even read (or remember) what
you wrote.

 >Fuck off and die.

No. Learn to read, yourself.








From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Wed Sep 20 13:53:27 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:53:27 -0400
Subject: CDR: Californians Must Report
Message-ID: <74b16ed56a902618441464af1aff0480@anon.xg.nu>

Californians Must Report
                           Attacks on Children
                           New Law Inspired by Killing in Casino Restroom 

                           Sept. 19, 2000 

                           By Randy Dotinga 

                           SACRAMENTO, Calif. (APBnews.com) -- Being a good Samaritan
                           isnt voluntary anymore in the Golden State. 

                           A new law requires Californians to seek help if they see a young
                           child being sexually attacked. If they dont, they risk spending time in
                           jail themselves. 

                           The law, signed by Gov. Gray Davis during the weekend, was
                           inspired by the 1997 killing of 7-year-old Sherrice Iverson in the
                           restroom of a Nevada casino. David Cash, the best friend of killer
                           Jeremy Strohmeyer, allegedly watched the assault but did not bother
                           to contact police or help the victim. 

                           Cashs inaction and cavalier attitude about it sparked an outcry at
                           the University of California at Berkeley, where he attended school.
                           He was dubbed the "bad Samaritan." 

                           Do the right thing 

                           Assemblyman Tom Torlakson, a Democrat who represents a Bay
                           Area district, heard about the Iversons death and wanted to find a
                           way to prevent future incidents, said spokesman Robert Oakes. 

                           "He was struck personally not only by the tragedy but that the person
                           who knew about it didnt say anything," Oakes said. "Thats just
                           wrong." 

                           The law is an attempt to "encourage people to do the right thing," he
                           said. 

                           Jail, fine possible 

                           Under the law, citizens must notify police if they witness a violent or
                           sexual assault on a child under 14. Anyone who fails to do so faces a
                           misdemeanor charge punishable by a maximum of six months in a
                           county jail and a $1,500 fine. 

                           Witnesses do not have to report a crime if they feel they are
                           themselves in danger. 

                           California already has a law that requires teachers, health-care
                           providers, members of the clergy and others to report suspected
                           child abuse. 

                           Opposition from defense attorneys 

                           According to Torlaksons office, the law was modeled after a similar
                           statute in the state of Washington, which was enacted after a group
                           of friends ignored the plight of a 21-year-old man who drowned in a
                           drainage ditch after he was beaten. 

                           The new California law did encounter some opposition. Defense
                           attorneys opposed it. So did an association of prosecutors who
                           worried it might prevent some witnesses from testifying for fear that
                           they may be prosecuted, Oakes said. 

                           The American Civil Liberties Union was worried about the bills scope
                           at first but is happy with the final version, said ACLU state legislative
                           director Francisco Lobaco. 

                           When they draft such bills, legislators need to make sure they do not
                           target "people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong
                           time," Lobaco said. "There should always be a sensitivity to making
                           things criminal when there is no wrongful intent." 





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 20 16:53:30 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:53:30 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 6:28 PM -0500 9/20/00, Jim Choate wrote:

(doesn't matter)

Note the thread name (as I write):

Re: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..



This is where attaching no-content tags and junk gets us.

Next iteration will be:

Re: -C P- Re: Re: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..

Stop the madness.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From adam at homeport.org  Wed Sep 20 14:11:06 2000
From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:11:06 -0400
Subject: CDR: Canada outlaws anonymous remailers (was Re: GigaLaw.com Daily
Message-ID: <20000920171314.A6381@weathership.homeport.org>

I don't think it does anything to us.

I think the title of the email is more interesting than the article,
which is about a company being forced to hand over information that
they have.  We've always believed that this was the case under
Canadian law, and are unsuprised.  We designed our systems so that
this isn't a worry, and are comfortable that thats a fine stance under
Canadian law.

Adam

| I wonder what this does to Zero Knowledge Systems?
| 
| Cheers,
| RAH
| 
| At 3:52 AM -0700 on 9/15/00, GigaLaw.com wrote:
| 
| 
| > Canadian Ruling Could Unmask Anonymous E-mailers
| >      Canadian e-mailers can no longer hide behind a cloak of anonymity if
| > reasonable grounds exist to show they've distributed defamatory statements
| > over the Internet. The change in Canadian law came after a landmark court
| > ruling this week when an Ontario Superior Court Justice ordered Internet
| > service provider iPRIMUS Inc. of Toronto to reveal the identity of an
| > anonymous e-mailer.
| >      Read the article: Wired News @
| > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38734,00.html


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume






From bear at sonic.net  Wed Sep 20 17:49:34 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:49:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: A cool idea that didn't hold up under cryptanalysis.
Message-ID: 


Recently, I've been making and breaking pencil-and-paper 
ciphers specifically to acquaint myself with the art of 
cryptanalysis.  

I've developed methods for solving vignere, general 
transpositions, playfair, etc...  just basically bringing 
myself up to speed with the general background of the field. 

And then, with my brain sharpened by the classics, I've been 
returning to things I formerly thought were "really neat 
ideas" in crypto but couldn't formulate a good reason for 
why they would be secure, and demolishing them.  

On most of them, the attacks have turned out to be embarassingly 
simple;  On this one, although I found an attack where known
plaintexts or chosen plaintexts could demolish it, to a 
cryptanalyst guessing cribs it's pretty resistant (it requires 
depressingly long cribs of a depressingly specific form unlikely 
to be found at random).

Anyway, any fans of pencil-and-paper systems out there, enjoy!

				Bear



	The Overlapping Additive Nomenclator

(Pencil-and-paper cipher; believed secure against amateur
  pencil-and-paper cryptanalysts but insecure against 
  computer-assisted or really good pencil-and-paper 
  cryptanalysts -- falls under the heading of "a cool 
  idea that didn't hold up under cryptanalysis")

This is a pencil-and-paper cipher, moderately difficult to 
use and extremely difficult to solve by pencil-and-paper 
cryptanalysis. 

I specifically do not assert that it is computationally 
secure.  The cryptanalysis explaining why not follows 
at the bottom of this paper. 

In this cipher, the key is a list of numbers, each number 
corresponding to one cleartext symbol. The following property 
must hold true of these numbers.

For some number N, (N=2 in the following example)
One of the two following conditions must hold:
   Either:
	All numbers used must differ from one another 
	in first N digits.  If the first difference 
	is in the Nth digit, then the difference in 
	that digit must be at least two.
   Or:
	All numbers used must differ from one another 
        in either one of the last two digits.

(In the example, both conditions are true). 

For some number D, (D=3 in the following example), 
Each code number must be at least N x D in length.  
The cipher provides sufficient confusion to "cover up" 
runs of identical plaintext characters of length D 
or smaller -- runs larger than length D will start 
showing a discernible pattern in the ciphertext. 


For a key on a small alphabet, consider the following:

A 129754
B 148943
D 208531
E 259146
F 268953

Now, if we are to encrypt the message "DEADBEEF" we would 
proceed as follows: 

First, the key number is written lined up beneath each 
plaintext letter, with N columns of digits for each column 
of letters; with a leading-difference system, the numbers 
are written starting in the column of the corresponding 
letter:  With a trailing-difference system, the numbers 
are written ending in the column of the corresponding letter. 


D E A D B E E F         leading difference
     D E A D B E E F    trailing difference
208531  148943
  259146  259146 
    129754  259146
      208531  268953

Next, the numbers in each column are added, with any carries 
spilling over to the next column;

208531  148943
  259146  259146
    129754  259146
      208531  268953
--------------------
21113564544660643553

The sum is the ciphertext. 

Decryption proceeds as follows:  

If we have chosen "Leading difference" as our condition, then 
we look at the first six digits of the sum and determine which 
code number is closest to it but not over.  We subtract 
that value from the whole, recovering a new sum.  We write the 
plaintext symbol corresponding to the number we have just 
subtracted in place of the leading two digits, as the new sum 
will be two digits shorter than the old.  Repeating the process 
until completion, we get the transformation in the left column.

If on the other hand we have chosen "trailing difference" as our 
criterion, then we look at the trailing two digits, pick the 
cleartext letter corresponding to these digits, and subtract it
from the result.  The difference will end in two zeros, which 
we remove and replace by the cleartext symbol whose code value we 
have just subtracted.  Repeating the process until completion, 
we obtain the transformation in the right column. 


21113564544660643553           21113564544660643553
208531                                       268953
--------------------           --------------------
D 260464544660643553           211135645446603746 F
  259146                                   259146
--------------------           --------------------
D E 1318544660643553           2111356454463446 E F
    129754                               259146
--------------------           --------------------
D E A 21004660643553           21113564542043 E E F
      208531                           148943
--------------------           --------------------
D E A D 151560643553           211135643931 B E E F
        148943                       208531
--------------------           --------------------
D E A D B 2617643553           2111354354 D B E E F
          259146                   129754
--------------------           --------------------
D E A D B E 26183553           21112246 A D B E E F
            259146               259146
--------------------           --------------------
D E A D B E E 268953           208531 E A D B E E F
              268953           208531
--------------------           --------------------
D E A D B E E F                     D E A D B E E F



In a real system, we could have chosen "leading difference" or 
"trailing difference" and made the key such that it would have 
been unusable in the other direction. 

With either mode, we can use code numbers of varying numbers 
of digits; the requirement of a constant number of digits 
holds only for systems such as the above which may be solved 
in either direction.  With a leading-difference system, the 
correct method is that the numbers be lined up with their 
leading digits under the letter before the addition is done; 
with a trailing-difference system, it is important that the 
numbers be lined up with their trailing digits under the 
letter before the addition is done. 

Since the "trailing difference" system need not worry about 
a carry digit altering the key, more symbols may be included 
in its alphabet.  

I have used N=2 here as the range of sensitivity, thinking 
of the roman alphabet plus perhaps seventy code signs.  If 
you prefer a nomenclator-like alphabet of nine thousand code 
signs, the same technique may be used; you will need to use 
N=4 instead.  

I have also used a "digit overlap" or D of three here, meaning 
that each digit of the ciphertext is the result of adding 
three digits in a sum, plus a possible carry digit.  Better 
security may be had by increasing the digit overlap (the 
minimum length of each numeric element becomes N times the 
digit overlap) but real computational security cannot be 
achieved by this method; it will frustrate only pencil-and-
paper cipherers.

Finally, since the ciphertext is "open at its ends", it is best 
for security to use a predetermined number of NULL symbols 
at both ends of the cipher; Null code numbers, unlike the actual 
key numbers, need not differ from legitimate key numbers in 
the first or last few digits; they need only to differ in the
first or last few digits from the code numbers assigned to 
other null symbols.   Leading and trailing NULL symbols make 
this cipher quite difficult of solution; if you keep track 
of your supply of leading and trailing nulls and do not reuse 
them, the cipher is reasonably secure against pen-and-paper 
cryptanalysis.

A successful method for pen-and-paper analysis, however, does 
exist.  If a known plaintext enciphered with some key is captured, 
a cryptanalyst may set up linear equations constraining the 
values of the code numbers.   If a set of D+1 consecutive symbols 
is used more than D times in the message under the same key, 
then the linear equations may be solved and will generally 
find the code number corresponding to at least one symbol. 

Once at least a few such code numbers are known, a cryptanalyst 
may start looking for "cribs" consisting of a seqence of length 
D consisting of known symbols, one unknown code symbol, and another 
sequence of D known symbols.  Each time such a crib is found, the 
cryptanalyst will learn another key code number.

A cryptanalyst may also look for "cribs" consisting of a sequence 
of length D consisting of known symbols, two unknown symbols, 
and another sequence of length D of known symbols; each time 
this happens, he will obtain a linear equation constraining the 
values of two symbols.  If more than one linear equation is found 
in this way constraining the value of any two symbols, the key 
for those symbols can be found.  Then of course, the other 
symbols captured in the linear equations with them from other 
cribs may also be solved for. 

What security this cipher has is as a result of the abstracted 
and difficult form that a crib must take, and the difficulty of 
finding and identifying suitable cribs.  

*sigh.*  Oh well, it's better than a standard nomenclator or 
a pigpen cipher.  Polyphony or polyalphabetic code substitution 
could of course be applied to good effect, but that's just 
obfuscation.  

			Bear





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 20 16:28:36 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:28:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <39C8F8FB.76E55DE4@sunder.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, sunder wrote:

> Let's face it, shit like hotmail, AOL, MSN, and their cousins are really
> socialism in disguise.  They allow the morons access to what they 
> shouldn't have.

Now THERE is socialism, deciding what others should have and want based
on your own personal convenience.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Wed Sep 20 11:02:49 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (Tiarnan O Corrain)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:02:49 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <39C8F8FB.76E55DE4@sunder.net> (message from sunder on Wed, 20
	Sep 2000 10:50:51 -0700)
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20000919104602.00b34c00@f00.nu>  <39C8F8FB.76E55DE4@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <200009201802.TAA05985@localhost.localdomain>



   And this is why socialism in any form is a bad idea.  It prevents
   evolution in action from culling the morons.  In the olden days these
   guys would have been sabertoothed tiger fodder.

   Let's face it, shit like hotmail, AOL, MSN, and their cousins are really
   socialism in disguise.

You have some strange ideas about what 'socialism' is. Used by you in sentences
such as the above, it seems to be a catch-all for 'things-I-don't-like'. If
by socialism you mean Stalinist state-capitalism, you might think about
using 'Stalinist state-capitalism'. I know it doesn't have the wonderful
generality of 'socialism', but accuracy is important too.

   Let's face it, shit like hotmail, AOL, MSN, and their cousins are really
   socialism in disguise.

Hmm: all of the above are products of corporatism, which was a feature of 
Soviet-controlled socialist countries (everything was owned by the state) and USA-sponsered
'free countries' (everything was owned by the family or friends of
the tinpot dictator). Ideological differences aside, the net result was
the same.

Socialism and statism are not homologous. Refer to Rosa Luxembourg.

   They allow the morons access to what they 
   shouldn't have. 

Spoken like a true commissar.

Tiarnan




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep 20 16:26:37 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:26:37 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
References: <6a6af60bd5947286e74d7a2e7450c04c@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <39C9478E.4F5159C@acmenet.net>

"A. Melon" wrote:
 
> You're probably one of those people who think that A. Melon, Nomen Nescio,
> An Metet, Secret Squirrel, etc., are actually individuals' personas.

Call me a moron, but what do you mean here? I had figured that "A.
Melon" was the nym of one individual, "Nomen Nescio" was the nym of one,
probably other, individual, and so on. Are "A Melon" etc group nyms,
like "Publius" of the US Federalist Papers? Does some anonymizer give
the same name for everyone who uses it?

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 20 17:29:16 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:29:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Tim May wrote:

> This is where attaching no-content tags and junk gets us.
> 
> Next iteration will be:
> 
> Re: -C P- Re: Re: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
> 
> Stop the madness.

Whine, whine, whine...and maybe too much wine.

One mans 'no-content' is another mans traffic filter, as usual the
standard old socialist bullshit emitted under another odour.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 20 16:51:10 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:51:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: A melon is a melon is a melon is a melon
In-Reply-To: <39C9478E.4F5159C@acmenet.net>
References: <6a6af60bd5947286e74d7a2e7450c04c@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 

At 7:26 PM -0400 9/20/00, Steve Furlong wrote:
>"A. Melon" wrote:
>
>>  You're probably one of those people who think that A. Melon, Nomen Nescio,
>>  An Metet, Secret Squirrel, etc., are actually individuals' personas.
>
>Call me a moron, but what do you mean here? I had figured that "A.
>Melon" was the nym of one individual, "Nomen Nescio" was the nym of one,
>probably other, individual, and so on. Are "A Melon" etc group nyms,
>like "Publius" of the US Federalist Papers? Does some anonymizer give
>the same name for everyone who uses it?

Some do. "A. Melon" is attached to every post coming from one 
particular, fairly new, remailer. (His rant goes something like: "I'm 
a melon, you're a melon, the child pornographer next door is a melon, 
the anti-Iraq freedom fighter is a melon, the woman planning to 
poison the water supply is a melon, etc.").

"Secret Squirrel" is self-explanatory.

I was confused by the "A. Melon" usage myself: for a few hours I 
thought someone I was conversing with from the alt.fan.nietzsche 
newsgroup was the same "A. Melon" who posts here. Not so.

The owner of the remailer posted his explanation a few weeks ago. It 
may have appeared here on the list...I just don't recall. Search 
engines should turn it up.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From anonymous at openpgp.net  Wed Sep 20 16:52:45 2000
From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:52:45 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
Message-ID: <2a1f1e58f821c4dc0d78c6e49e31182b@noisebox.remailer.org>

Steve Furlong wrote:

> Call me a moron, but what do you mean here? I had figured that "A.
> Melon" was the nym of one individual, "Nomen Nescio" was the nym of one,
> probably other, individual, and so on. Are "A Melon" etc group nyms,
> like "Publius" of the US Federalist Papers? Does some anonymizer give
> the same name for everyone who uses it?

ALT.PRIVACY.ANON-SERVER FAQ
(http://www.almostnotcrazy.org/b/apasfaq/apas-faq.html)

[snip]

13) Who is Nomen Nescio? Secret Squirrel?
Nomen Nescio is Latin for "I do not know the name."   This is the
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: header emitted by the Dizum Remailer remailer at dizum.com .This
is simply a replacement for the more common "Anonymous" or "Anon User"
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: header.
Secret Squirrel is the From: header emitted by the Squirrel Remailer
mix at squirrel.owl.de.

Other alternative IDs include:
An Metet, (Egyptian for "not spoken") From: header for the Shinn
Remailer remailer at mixmaster.shinn.net.
Jiggs McManus, From: header for the Eelbash Remailer
eelbash at bigfoot.com
Mr. Seppo, From: header for the Septic Remailer septic at home.com
A. Melon, From: header for the Randseed Remailer
randseed at melontraffickers.com .





From billp at nmol.com  Wed Sep 20 19:01:16 2000
From: billp at nmol.com (billp at nmol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:01:16 -0600
Subject: CDR: pro se fights v smith and wesson
Message-ID: <39C96BEB.17F6BCA2@nmol.com>

When I visited google I was agast what the cypherpunks had done.

But, of course, we live on the far side.

Keep it up!

I am.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/smithandwesson.htm

Smith and Wesson and Sandia Labs have partnered to put microcontrollers
into guns.

Well, Sandia screwed-up the US nuclear arsenal with an 1802  and about
112k lines of assember so we might guess that Sandia will also screw-up
handguns too.

Short time here.  Long time gone.

http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/




From minow at pobox.com  Wed Sep 20 20:08:29 2000
From: minow at pobox.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:08:29 -0700
Subject: Identity theft (Ellison, RISKS-21.05)
Message-ID: 

> Now -- how do we get consumer protection laws that make it clear that a
> consumer is not liable for any debts incurred by someone claiming to be
> him/her ...

Having recently been on the receiving end of identity theft, I'm a bit more
optimistic than Carl. I solved my problem by reading the back page of the
credit report, where it provided addresses of the federal agencies that
regulate collection bureaus, banks, and similar organizations. Letters to
the agencies resulted in one "opening a case" and, eventually, a letter of
apology from the bank in question (who hadn't answered my previous
requests/complaints).  I used an account record book -- a bound notebook
with numbered pages -- that had dated notes of every interaction I had with
the banks and credit card agencies, interspersed with software notes,
interesting URL's, telemarketing caller numbers, and other scribbles. This
let me document my complaints with the specific dates and times that I
attempted to resolve the problem.

Martin Minow minow at pobox.com

---
All inventions or works of authorship original to me,
herein and past, are placed irrevocably in the public
domain, and may be used or modified for any purpose,
without permission, attribution, or notification.







------_=_NextPart_001_01C028A3.8160D100
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"






RE: More from RISKS




Sorry, it wasn't a "private solution" but relied on the

existing legal protections under Federal Law.




If I was asking for more laws, I'd ask for the Swedish

credit disclosure law that says that whenever a company

writes a credit report it must provide the individual

with a true and accurate copy (without any action on

the individual's part).




Martin Minow

minow at pobox.com

 




-----Original Message-----

From: Marcel Popescu [mailto:marcel at aiurea.com]

Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 9:44 AM

To: Multiple recipients of list

Subject: More from RISKS






A private solution to the problem that one Carl wanted more laws to solve:




Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:08:29 -0700

X-Loop: openpgp.net

From: Martin Minow <minow at pobox.com>

Subject: Re: Identity theft (Ellison, RISKS-21.05)




> Now -- how do we get consumer protection laws that make it clear that a

> consumer is not liable for any debts incurred by someone claiming to be

> him/her ...




Having recently been on the receiving end of identity theft, I'm a bit more

optimistic than Carl. I solved my problem by reading the back page of the

credit report, where it provided addresses of the federal agencies that

regulate collection bureaus, banks, and similar organizations. Letters to

the agencies resulted in one "opening a case" and, eventually, a letter of

apology from the bank in question (who hadn't answered my previous

requests/complaints).  I used an account record book -- a bound notebook

with numbered pages -- that had dated notes of every interaction I had with

the banks and credit card agencies, interspersed with software notes,

interesting URL's, telemarketing caller numbers, and other scribbles. This

let me document my complaints with the specific dates and times that I

attempted to resolve the problem.




Martin Minow minow at pobox.com




---

All inventions or works of authorship original to me,

herein and past, are placed irrevocably in the public

domain, and may be used or modified for any purpose,

without permission, attribution, or notification.















------_=_NextPart_001_01C028A3.8160D100--





From minow at pobox.com  Wed Sep 20 20:08:29 2000
From: minow at pobox.com (Martin Minow)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:08:29 -0700
Subject: Identity theft (Ellison, RISKS-21.05)
Message-ID: 

> Now -- how do we get consumer protection laws that make it clear that a
> consumer is not liable for any debts incurred by someone claiming to be
> him/her ...

Having recently been on the receiving end of identity theft, I'm a bit more
optimistic than Carl. I solved my problem by reading the back page of the
credit report, where it provided addresses of the federal agencies that
regulate collection bureaus, banks, and similar organizations. Letters to
the agencies resulted in one "opening a case" and, eventually, a letter of
apology from the bank in question (who hadn't answered my previous
requests/complaints).  I used an account record book -- a bound notebook
with numbered pages -- that had dated notes of every interaction I had with
the banks and credit card agencies, interspersed with software notes,
interesting URL's, telemarketing caller numbers, and other scribbles. This
let me document my complaints with the specific dates and times that I
attempted to resolve the problem.

Martin Minow minow at pobox.com

---
All inventions or works of authorship original to me,
herein and past, are placed irrevocably in the public
domain, and may be used or modified for any purpose,
without permission, attribution, or notification.








From whgiii at openpgp.net  Wed Sep 20 17:16:30 2000
From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:16:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: Qualcomm bouncing MIME messages
In-Reply-To: <200009200622.XAA18584@enigma.qualcomm.com>
Message-ID: <200009210122.VAA01536@domains.invweb.net>

In <200009200622.XAA18584 at enigma.qualcomm.com>, on 09/20/00 
   at 12:22 AM, qcpm  said:

>Greetings,

>Your recent email message to QUALCOMM has not been delivered due to the 
>attachment it included. QUALCOMM does not allow email with certain types
>of  attachments due to the possible presence of a computer virus in these
>files. Please resend your message without any attachments or compress
>your  attachment before sending it.

>We apologize for any inconvenience. 

>The QUALCOMM Postmasters

It seems that Qualcomm is bouncing all multipart mime messages. I have bounces of PGP/MIME messages, multipart/alternative messages (text & html), & a poorly formatted multipart/mixed that only had one part which was the text of the message.

This seems to be a rather anal approach to filtering out potential virus. Considering that Qualcomm is a member of the IMC (Internet Mail Consortium) it would be funny if not so sad.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III      http://www.openpgp.net  
Geiger Consulting    

Data Security & Cryptology Consulting
Programming, Networking, Analysis
 
PGP for OS/2:               http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
E-Secure:                   http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------




From me at myplace.to  Wed Sep 20 20:22:43 2000
From: me at myplace.to (me at myplace.to)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:22:43 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: A melon is a melon is a melon is a melon
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39C9478E.4F5159C@acmenet.net>
 <6a6af60bd5947286e74d7a2e7450c04c@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000920202243.012b09ac@mail.ewol.com>


>At 07:51 PM 9/20/00 -0400, you wrote:

>------"A. Melon" is attached to every post coming from one 
>particular, fairly new, remailer. (His rant goes something like: "I'm 
>a melon, you're a melon, the child pornographer next door is a melon, 
>the anti-Iraq freedom fighter is a melon, the woman planning to 
>poison the water supply is a melon, etc.").

>The owner of the remailer posted his explanation a few weeks ago. It 
>may have appeared here on the list...I just don't recall. Search 
>engines should turn it up.
>
>--Tim May

Just hit the abuse report URL in the header of all melon missives...




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 20 18:31:01 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:31:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <200009210050.UAA30710@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> Subscibe to a list that filters out the CDR: from the subject as Jim has 
> made it clear that he is going to continue adding this to the subject
> line. On the openpgp.net list the subject is:

You've got a right to filter, I've got a right to give you something to
filter...

Enjoy.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From whgiii at openpgp.net  Wed Sep 20 17:50:07 2000
From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:50:07 -0400
Subject: CDR: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200009210050.UAA30710@domains.invweb.net>

In , on 09/20/00 
   at 05:54 PM, Tim May  said:

>Note the thread name (as I write):

>Re: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..



>This is where attaching no-content tags and junk gets us.

>Next iteration will be:

>Re: -C P- Re: Re: CDR: Re: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..

>Stop the madness.

Subscibe to a list that filters out the CDR: from the subject as Jim has made it clear that he is going to continue adding this to the subject line. On the openpgp.net list the subject is:

-C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..

The next iteration will be:

Subject: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III      http://www.openpgp.net  
Geiger Consulting    

Data Security & Cryptology Consulting
Programming, Networking, Analysis
 
PGP for OS/2:               http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
E-Secure:                   http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------





From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Wed Sep 20 21:58:48 2000
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:58:48 -0800 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Re; cover your glass
Message-ID: <200009210425.VAA11874@user5.hushmail.com>

I'd be willing to be that placing a semi-reflective glass wedge in the optical 
path ahead of the scope's front lens would defeat such laser detection systems. 
 Any incoming light not reflected off the wedge's front surface (and perhaps 
trapped in an adjoining baffle) would almost surely be reflected off the 
wedge's other front surface denying the laser's operator enough of a return 
signal to work with.

That the lasers are probably working in the IR (so as not to be easily detectable 
by the snipper) makes the wedge even easier to use as it needn't appreciably 
reduce the visible component most useful to the sniper.

At 12:30 PM 12/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
Old news:
See below

---------- Reply to ----------
Date: 31 Dec 1999 04:20:45 -0000
Subject: cover your glass
From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer 
Reply-to: lcs Mixmaster Remailer 
To: cypherpunks at algebra.com

Re: acoustic shooter detection systems in LA

Just FYI: Some time ago I read of the development of 
sniper-detection systems which looked for
reflections off the 'scope glass.  

This probably isn't ready for prime time,
being in development maybe a year ago,
and isn't mentioned in the article,
so you're probably safe taking your time, 
sighting in.

BMGMonger
-----------------------------------------------------

Here in my stack of oddball periodicals I have a copy 
of the July/August 1998 issue of Revue Aerospatiale
A french aerospace journal, wherein we have an article
Lasers:
Hard-Hitting Watchdogs

The best way to dissuade snipers is to deprive them of their impunity by 
ensureing they know that their exact location has been pinpointed. CILAS 
demonstrated this at Eurosatory with its directed-optics
laser detector- the first production unit intended ultimately for delivery 
to the French army. This ground-breaking technology can be expected to bring 
other developments in its wake. 

It goes on;

Quietly, free from media hype, things (this is in ref to background on why 
snipers are bad) 
have suddenly changed since a prototype of the SLD400 was received by the 
French armed 
forces. Behind this mundane designation lurks a device capable of detecting,
 locating and indentifying the optics with which snipers are equipped. 

More;

The scope of application of the SLD400 is much wider and can include the 
protection of VIPs and pinpointing sharpshooters of the binoculars of terrorists 
preparing criminal acts. (it actually says that)

The article goes on to describe building databases of specific optical device 
signature and such. So that they not only know that you are there, they 
also know what you have deployed to better asses threat level and so on. 

Assume they know, always. 
   
IMPORTANT NOTICE:  If you are not using HushMail, this message could have 
been
read easily by the many people who have access to your open personal email 
messages.
Get your FREE, totally secure email address at http://www.hushmail.com.

From bear at sonic.net  Wed Sep 20 18:06:39 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:06:39 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: would it be so much to ask..
In-Reply-To: <39C9478E.4F5159C@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: 



On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Steve Furlong wrote:

>Call me a moron, but what do you mean here? I had figured that "A.
>Melon" was the nym of one individual, "Nomen Nescio" was the nym of one,
>probably other, individual, and so on. Are "A Melon" etc group nyms,
>like "Publius" of the US Federalist Papers? Does some anonymizer give
>the same name for everyone who uses it?

In the past, I have been Secret Squirrel.  I have the means to be 
A. Melon.  Usually I post under my True Name.  There is also a nym 
which is mine and mine alone, whose continuity I maintain using 
a PGP key that no one knowing my True Name has ever signed.  But 
there is not much continuity to maintain, since I have need of 
that nym very rarely.

Many remailers (almost all good ones, I think) use the same name 
on all outgoing posts.  On some of them, you can override it by 
including appropriate instructions in the last layer of the envelope, 
but it's rarely a good idea -- if you want hard anonymity, you are 
in the business of not giving any unnecessary clues. 

Judging from writing style and grammatical habits, I think there are
at least 3 "A. Melon"s on this mailing list.  But I could be wrong, 
and if I am, that's okay. 

				Bear

PS.  For bonus points, can anyone name the now-defunct remailer 
     whose default posting name was in fact "Publius?"









From dialpad.115365.220.0 at reply.dialpad.com  Wed Sep 20 22:01:41 2000
From: dialpad.115365.220.0 at reply.dialpad.com (The Dialpad Team)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:01:41 -0700
Subject: CDR: Exciting News from Dialpad!
Message-ID: <969512501862.dialpad.115365.220.0@reply.dialpad.com>

Dialpad.com Newsletter

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From richardbondi at alumni.virginia.edu  Wed Sep 20 19:33:39 2000
From: richardbondi at alumni.virginia.edu (Richard Bondi)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:33:39 -0400
Subject: CDR: Book & Open Source code announcement: Cryptography for Visual
  Basic
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000920223158.02d06e58@pop.mail.yahoo.com>

Dear All,

John Wiley & Sons has just published my new book "Cryptography for Visual 
Basic: A Programmer's Guide to the Microsoft CryptoAPI." Bruce Schneier has 
kindly endorsed it: "This is essential reading for anyone who needs to 
understand Microsoft's CryptoAPI,its strengths and its limitations." The 
book includes open source COM objects with a simple interface to help VB 
programmers use the CryptoAPI.

For the actual code, links, and other information, see 
www.geocities.com/richardbondi.

Best,
Richard Bondi




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Sep 20 20:29:06 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:29:06 -0400
Subject: CDR: -C-P- Re: would it be so much to ask..
References: <200009210050.UAA30710@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <39C973CE.7D7042A@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

"William H. Geiger III" wrote:

> Subscibe to a list that filters out the CDR: from the subject as Jim has made it clear that he is going to continue adding this to the subject line. On the openpgp.net list the subject is:
>
>

    The problem with that, or at least openpgp.net, is that the software also strips the header, so that you have no way to filter the toad.com crap, and thus, the spam.






From jimdbell at home.com  Wed Sep 20 23:53:05 2000
From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:53:05 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Re; cover your glass
References: <200009210425.VAA11874@user5.hushmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c02398$9853be00$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com>

There is a easily-available kind of architectural glass  called "Azurelite"
(PPG Industries) (read:  "Cheap") which would transmit less than 2% (single
pass) of 900nm infrared in a 45 degree "brewster window" configuration.  For
two passes, that's 0.03% reflection even if the underlying scope optics
reflected 100%.  In other words, vastly less reflection than even a black
piece of paper.

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: ; Cypherpunks 
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 21:58 PM
Subject: Re: Re; cover your glass


> I'd be willing to be that placing a semi-reflective glass wedge in the
optical
> path ahead of the scope's front lens would defeat such laser detection
systems.
>  Any incoming light not reflected off the wedge's front surface (and
perhaps
> trapped in an adjoining baffle) would almost surely be reflected off the
> wedge's other front surface denying the laser's operator enough of a
return
> signal to work with.
>
> That the lasers are probably working in the IR (so as not to be easily
detectable
> by the snipper) makes the wedge even easier to use as it needn't
appreciably
> reduce the visible component most useful to the sniper.
>
> At 12:30 PM 12/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
> Old news:
> See below
>
> ---------- Reply to ----------
> Date: 31 Dec 1999 04:20:45 -0000
> Subject: cover your glass
> From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer 
> Reply-to: lcs Mixmaster Remailer 
> To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
>
> Re: acoustic shooter detection systems in LA
>
> Just FYI: Some time ago I read of the development of
> sniper-detection systems which looked for
> reflections off the 'scope glass.
>
> This probably isn't ready for prime time,
> being in development maybe a year ago,
> and isn't mentioned in the article,
> so you're probably safe taking your time,
> sighting in.
>
> BMGMonger
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Here in my stack of oddball periodicals I have a copy
> of the July/August 1998 issue of Revue Aerospatiale
> A french aerospace journal, wherein we have an article
> Lasers:
> Hard-Hitting Watchdogs
>
> The best way to dissuade snipers is to deprive them of their impunity by
> ensureing they know that their exact location has been pinpointed. CILAS
> demonstrated this at Eurosatory with its directed-optics
> laser detector- the first production unit intended ultimately for delivery
> to the French army. This ground-breaking technology can be expected to
bring
> other developments in its wake.
>
> It goes on;
>
> Quietly, free from media hype, things (this is in ref to background on why
> snipers are bad)
> have suddenly changed since a prototype of the SLD400 was received by the
> French armed
> forces. Behind this mundane designation lurks a device capable of
detecting,
>  locating and indentifying the optics with which snipers are equipped.
>
> More;
>
> The scope of application of the SLD400 is much wider and can include the
> protection of VIPs and pinpointing sharpshooters of the binoculars of
terrorists
> preparing criminal acts. (it actually says that)
>
> The article goes on to describe building databases of specific optical
device
> signature and such. So that they not only know that you are there, they
> also know what you have deployed to better asses threat level and so on.
>
> Assume they know, always.
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE:  If you are not using HushMail, this message could have
> been
> read easily by the many people who have access to your open personal email
> messages.
> Get your FREE, totally secure email address at http://www.hushmail.com.




From barter at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 00:54:15 2000
From: barter at hotmail.com (Vacation)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 02:54:15 -0500
Subject: CDR: Vacation!
Message-ID: <20000921075415936.AAA1408@www.hotmail.com>

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From pentz at pchnet.com  Thu Sep 21 01:53:16 2000
From: pentz at pchnet.com (pentz)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:53:16 -0500
Subject: CDR: curfew
Message-ID: <000c01c023a9$62806240$827c503f@user>


  Dear________,
  curfews have always been up to the parents & I don't think the city should set a curfew.
  I give my own kids cyrfues and if think that I should leave it up to the city then you give me 5 good reasons why!

  ~Rachel~ 
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From barter at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 21 01:11:50 2000
From: barter at hotmail.com (Vacation)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 04:11:50 -0400
Subject: CDR: Vacation!
Message-ID: <20000921075408296.AAA1944@www.hotmail.com>



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