From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Sep 2 15:44:39 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 17:44:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR: Austin: Physical Meet - Sept. 12, 7-9pm Message-ID: Central Market HEB Cafe 38th and N. Lamar 7-9pm We usualy meet outside unless the weather is inclimate. Look for the red covered "Applied Cryptography" book. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From billp at nmol.com Sat Sep 2 17:07:06 2000 From: billp at nmol.com (billp at nmol.com) Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 18:07:06 -0600 Subject: CDR: load1 going goodbye Message-ID: <39B1962A.825A7388@nmol.com> http://share.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/load1.html Try do do something about Lee. COMPLAIN http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ From bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au Sat Sep 2 18:38:30 2000 From: bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au (BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 21:38:30 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000831152154.00966800@pop.sprynet.com> from "David Honig" at Aug 31, 2000 06:47:39 PM Message-ID: <200009030138.e831c8A01316@octarine.itsc.adfa.edu.au> > > At 12:00 PM 8/31/00 -0400, Joseph Ashwood wrote: > >No but I feel free to type a hundred or so, but that's beside the > >point. The claim made was that anything a human can remember, a > >computer can brute force, this was simply one very clear example that > >it simply was not true, as I rather thoroughly established. > > Anything large that a human can remember has enough structure so that you > don't need brute force, you use a dictionary-based attack. A human can easily remember 26 random letters from a 32 character alphabet with a little mnemonic method (eg map each character to a word so that it makes up some sort of dumb story). 5*26==130 which is more bits than computers can currently exhaust over. From arnoldstamp at china.com Sat Sep 2 19:10:41 2000 From: arnoldstamp at china.com (arnoldstamp at china.com) Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:10:41 -0400 Subject: CDR: FREE!!! quotes on New Cars Message-ID: <200009030200.TAA05021@sirius.infonex.com> Looking for a NEW Car? Check out the GREATEST prices for NEW CARS!! GO TO http://www.themortgageden.com/cars.html NOW FOR BEST DEALS Click HERE for the the BEST DEALS Absolutely FREE, no cost to you. NO HASSLES...NO STRESS....NO COST to check out the best deals. Want to save time and money? Want to have quick access to car quotes? Want to have all makes and models available to you? CLICK on the link below to get the lowest prices on ALL makes and models. Avoid the aggravation of the traditional buying process. GO TO http://www.themortgageden.com/cars.html NOW FOR BEST DEALS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If for any reason you do not want to recieve offers in the future click the link below to be removed mailto:shave_cream at china.com?subject=Remove ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From tcmay at got.net Sun Sep 3 00:55:52 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 00:55:52 -0700 Subject: CDR: Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:10 PM +1000 9/3/00, Rob Henry wrote: >Explain what this site is please! > >cos' i'm very confused You're much more than confused. You're stupid. For starters, this is not "a site." Some people are too stupid to be allowed to live. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Sun Sep 3 00:38:59 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 03:38:59 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: none In-Reply-To: "Rob Henry"'s message of "Sun, 3 Sep 2000 03:16:41 -0400" References: Message-ID: <8466oehqmb.fsf@athena.dhis.org> "Rob Henry" writes: > Explain what this site is please! > > cos' i'm very confused This site? Let me look around. Ah, yes. This site is the secret Cypherpunk nuclear launch bunker from which we can rain nuclear fire down from the heavens with a single thought. Over in that corner over there is the closet where we keep almost ten years worth of food, for use in case we have to go into hiding or nuclear winter falls upon us all. And in that corner over there is the weapons locker. And there is the Beowulf cluster with 16TB of drive space, hooked to the Internet with multiple T3s. And that over there is an airlock. Do you want to see it? Ah, of course you do. Just step in there. Yeah, that's it. Now those lights up there show the door status. Let me show you. Now, we close the door like this, and that light changes, then I can push this button. Ignore that click. Then if I push this button, that digital display will start showing increased air pressure. And we let it run for a few minutes... What? Yeah, I saw that James Bond movie too. Now I just hit this rapid decompression switch and *that* light will change... Hey, someone get maintenance over here. Some idiot was in the airlock again and he exploded. I hate it when that happens. It's such a mess, and the tissue is really hard to get off the glass. From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 02:36:53 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 05:36:53 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken? In-Reply-To: <39AFAD59.A3FB12FF@acmenet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Steven Furlong wrote: >I used to work for a full-text indexing company. (So I can argue from >a position of authority, and you can't dispute anything I say. ;-) ) >The problem of indexing and matching text is not a hard problem in the >mathematical sense, but it quickly becomes computationally gruesome. I know, I know. No essential difference between text and pure binary data except a more limited alphabet and even lower mean entropy per symbol sent. >For myself, I often use as pass phrases memorized phrases from >literature. Which ones? Well, I read four languages, and I do the >number/letter and symbol/letter substitutions, so I feel secure even >revealing that clue. Good for you. Most people never go to even that much trouble. But I still think that dictionary searches on, say, all consequtive subsequences of 6-200 characters in the top 100 most likely to have been read books of a given adversary, with common variations (suppression of punctuation, all upper and lower case, adjunction of numbers below from 0-999 in the beginning and end of the phrase, all caps with first capital and vice versa, for the phrase and all words etc.) does not get too hard too fast, especially if we have statistics of people's habits which allow us to work the more likely candidates (like all lower case with little extra changes) first. And it *is* likely to work for the majority of adversaries. I also conceed to your point: serious crypto buffs like most people on this list would probably have little to fear from such attacks... Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 03:02:23 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 06:02:23 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000901094220.0096be90@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, David Honig wrote: >>Nuh. I think they should be happy about biology education - might one day >>give them a nice young crackpot with the talent to create a drug user >>killing flu... > >Then they lose a taxpayer or at least prison slave labor. Well, who's there to say you cannot create less potent variants first, which only make users sicker than normal people. Then, over a couple of decades, increase the effect subtly. If done in secrecy we can accumulate 'research' which shows that the drugs indeed do kill, lending popular support to even stricter control/paternalism. >The US govt funds research into vaccines that make recreational >pharmaceuticals not fun in the innoculated. I know. I think they already have the first prototypes ready, at least for THC. Of course, it's not very dependable yet. Actually putting the relevant functionality in a suitably well designed retrovirus could innoculate most of the population without ever seeking consent. Again, possible to achieve in secrecy since at least THC is known to be unpleasant to some people - suddenly the percent would be 90. Biotech certainly opened some interesting horizons for me... ;) Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 03:15:21 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 06:15:21 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <84itsgc8rn.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: >Not to mention that there exists a certain peptide, the name of which >escapes me at the moment, which is naturally occuring in the >brain. It is five amino acids long, and exerts an effect about 5000 >times stronger than that of Heroin. There are far more where that came >from. Of course. Just as there is anandamide, the transmitter which hemp compounds mainly mimic. Only you do not easily get such substances into the brain without using a needle - proteins generally do not get through the blood-brain barrier absent active transport. So you would need proteins which, after somehow having been delivered in the blood stream whole, are actively transported (this means extra 'handles' so that the molecule is recognized) across the barrier, then we probably need a working mechanism which then processes (cleaves, oxidises etc.) to obtain a final active compound. All in all, you do not easily deliver proteins to the brain. >Time for the War on Neurobiology. I'll have to use that one. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From prosperity4allnow at alloymail.com Sun Sep 3 08:45:13 2000 From: prosperity4allnow at alloymail.com (prosperity4allnow at alloymail.com) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 08:45:13 Subject: CDR: Pre Launch **This is THE BIG ONE** Message-ID: <200009031122.EAA18923@cyberpass.net> 30,000 enrolled in less than 10 days! Pre Launch **This is THE BIG ONE** If you read this very carefully you'll understand this is something that you'll definitely want to join before the rest of the world hears about it and joins before you. This compnay is pre-launching what is destined to be the biggest and best Company in all of History. The very top Network marketers are in. The best software and software programmers are in. This is a combination of dot.com companies, plus many others. You'd better decide fast what you'd like to do! If you act now you'll be in the right place at the right time to position yourself for a great opportunity! I listened to the conference call and I was so impressed I joined up immediately. You'll be blown away!! HISTORY STARTS TODAY!! Would you take a few minutes of your busy schedule to listen to an individual who is giving up his earnings of $187,000 per week? He is NOW Pre-Launching a .com company with a pay plan that will revolutionize the entire Industry! How would you like to be with a company that has combined the best of SkyBiz, Km.net, BigSmart, Priceline.net, and long distance (International service as well) Listen to one of the conference calls. This will introduce you to the EXPLOSIVE business we are going into. I urge you to get on one or all of these calls and listen to an opportunity that you can finally agree with, and work because you know you will be rewarded exponentially for your efforts. After you listen to the call/calls you WILL want to sign up....and FAST! Then you'll have the opportunity to TELL THE WHOLE WORLD.!!!!! You have right now the opportunity to cash in on something VERY BIG. By being in the right place at the right time, if you ACT FAST, this is your WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY before the rest or the world gets to know.... AND THEY WILL! YOU CAN BE ONE OF THE TOP MEMBERS!! You can join in at the very beginning and be part of HISTORY IN THE MAKING! Here are some major selling points combining major trends... 1. Low start up cost. 2. Unique marketing plan : A NEW HYBRID PLAN Straight-line Non Flushing Binary 3x10 Matrix with matching Bonus (When you cycle in the Straight-line you are entered into the Non Flushing Binary and then into the 3x10. 3. They're catching all the major huge trends. Web sites & education, "tools" for Internet marketers, International Long Distance "Flat Rate", and plan to be offering ISP and DSL service. (Free) and Lots more. 4. They're doing everything they can to come up with a formula to pay a matching bonus on the straight-line, as well as the Binary! Think about that. ..................Has it hit you yet? 5. THIS IS GLOBAL ! Get on the call TODAY or YOUR FRIENDS will be calling YOU TOMORROW. Get back to me QUICKLY for further information Click on the link below mailto:prosperity4allnow at lakmail.com?Subject=BIG_ONE Or send a blank e-mail to prosperity4allnow at lakmail.com with "BIG ONE" in the subject box. Have a GREAT day, Barb ********************************************************************** Please Note: You're receiving this email because you answered an advert I ran, you sent an ad about your program to one of my e-mail addresses, or you posted a link at my FFA links site. If at anytime you would like to be Removed from my address book, simply click on the link below mailto:remove.me at lakmail.com?Subject=REMOVE or send a blank e-mail to remove.me at lakmail.com with "REMOVE " in the subject line and you'll be removed immediately. Thank you. From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 3 05:46:34 2000 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 08:46:34 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <39AE96D4.AAC330D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>; from k.brown@ccs.bbk.ac.uk on Thu, Aug 31, 2000 at 01:33:57PM -0400 References: <39AE8CA3.7F6DCA6B@lsil.com> <39AE903F.248BF2DB@acmenet.net> <39AE96D4.AAC330D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20000903124142.A566@tightrope.demon.co.uk> No he is British. On Thu, Aug 31, 2000 at 01:33:57PM -0400, Ken Brown wrote: > > Er, I thought Terry Pratchett was a European... > > Steven Furlong wrote: > > > > Michael Motyka wrote: > > > > > > Petro wrote: > > > > What do you expect from a bunch of whipped Europeans? > > > > > > > > To quote T. Pratchett "They don't need chains, they have obedience." > > > > > > > The only difference is that they know they are whipped. We have the > > > chains but no obedience. Chains paid for by our own money. > > > > It's better to be chained but with the goal of freedom than to be an > > unchained but content slave. The self-proclaimed masters can be > > overthrown, lethally if need be. > > > > (Thought I'd beat Tim to that. I don't kill without good cause, but I'd > > count this as a good cause.) > > > > SRF > > > > -- > > Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel > > 518-374-4720 sfurlong at acmenet.net > > -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- mark twain From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:50:27 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:50:27 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: "..do not count on the anonymity of the Internet to serve In-Reply-To: <20000901230314.16497.qmail@web1904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000901160848.00982670@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:56 PM 9/1/00 -0400, Bill Orme wrote: According to one law >enforcement >spokesperson: "Anyone who would use the Internet to >commit >a crime should understand one thing -- do not count on >the >anonymity of the Internet to serve as a shield for >your illegal >conduct. As technology advances, so do our >investigative techniques >and our abilities to protect the public." It would help to use a more anonymous terminal (than your college) and not to attack someplace where you've worked. And not to have the stock options in your real name. Sounds like an act of desparation, not a carefully planned attack. Of course, the dude couldn't have done the attack had he not worked there before, and info-traffickers will learn to use better authentication. Means, motivation, opportunity. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:50:53 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:50:53 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Good work by FBI and SEC on Emulex fraud case In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000902135923.0096e280@pop.sprynet.com> At 07:45 PM 9/1/00 -0400, petro wrote: > Of course, one of there roles could be "verification" of the >press release, i.e. Emulex signs it, and rather than having to have >985,234,003 keys on my key ring to verify every press release I read, >the News Service can sign the whole thing saying "we witness that >this press release was signed with the proper key".. Couldn't software automatically check releases against a key given by a URL? (Skipping the problems with DNS, etc.) But yeah its always good to have human reputations on the line, too. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:51:19 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:51:19 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program In-Reply-To: References: <39B01988.D68C7A92@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000902140538.0096f940@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:48 PM 9/1/00 -0400, Tim May wrote: >(Not taking anything away from Furlong's work. I bought Knuth's book >on LP, circa 1994 or so, but never got into it in a major way--being >a Lisp and Smalltalk kind of person, I didn't see the point. But, to >be fair, there was much discussion of "how can they ban programs when >programs are speech?" back in 1993 or so, when Clipper was a hot >issue. To "pull a Tim," check the archives.) The issue is one of complexity management, and synch. How to keep doc synced to code, how to reduce impedence of poor sap forced to learn and edit someone else's code. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:51:19 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:51:19 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program In-Reply-To: <39B0FD25.AE37A15@acmenet.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000902145320.00970b40@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:14 AM 9/2/00 -0400, Steven Furlong wrote: ><> >As the President has made clear, encryption software is >regulated because it has the technical capacity to encrypt data and >by that jeopardize American security interests, not because of its >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 13026, 1996 WL 666563. Were this true, carrying a copy of _Applied Crypto_ (not including source) out of the country would be illegal. It is not. The law is an ass. From honig at sprynet.com Sun Sep 3 06:51:19 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:51:19 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <5d3ca9972a878cdc700c1d6c5819be0a@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000902150739.0096b250@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:46 AM 9/2/00 -0400, A. Melon wrote: > > People have grafted hops vines onto cannabis roots for years, that >ain't no net legend. Hops and C.s. are closely related, and grafting ain't genetic surgery. Catnip is also related, which explains certain feline behaviors. (Just kidding, likely catnip is anti-parasite, and cats somehow know this... that's the most rational explanation I've heard for feline affinity for that mint.. now get your claws off me.. damn feline antidefamation league) But now that the knowledge of the high DMT content >in many common plants, such as reed canary grass (.58%-1% wet), which grow >widely all over NA and Euro and much of the rest of the world, is being >just as widely disemminated, along with the very simple extraction >techniques (run it through a Wheat Grass Juicer, slow dry the liquid, smoke) >the possibility of controlling strong psychedelics is nil. > Reed Canary grass, BTW, has proven almost impossible to eradicate, where- >ever it has a foothold. What are you, a toadpunk? goddamn tryptamine freaks. Keep your jaguars to yourselves. The sequence for smallpox is in the public domain, btw. The endogenous endorphin peptides previously mentioned would be the smallest concern, if synthesizers became common. Libyans taking molebio courses watch out. Hey Joe, where you goin' with that sequence in yo' hand? .. looking forward to -producing-kudzu... 8-) From pinkyzoo at gte.net Sun Sep 3 08:15:42 2000 From: pinkyzoo at gte.net (Kathy Pinckert) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 10:15:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: Message-ID: <200009031516.KAA19489308@smtppop2.gte.net> From ravage at ssz.com Sun Sep 3 09:20:42 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:20:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR: auditable gaming PRNGs (Re: PRNG server) (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:49:16 -0500 From: Adam Back Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com To: bill.stewart at pobox.com Cc: petro at bounty.org, cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: CDR: auditable gaming PRNGs (Re: PRNG server) Seems to me you can do better with a gaming server. If the gaming server servers RNGs in a sequence such that each sample in the sequence can be verified, they don't need to trust the server; or at least there is an audit function. Eg. say that the server publishes subsequent pre-images in a hashchain. h_0 h_{i+1} = h_i and the server computes h_i values up to i = 10^8 and then publishes them starting with h_{10^8}, h_{10^8-1}, ... Then anyone can verify that the random number is the preimage of the previous random number. You do something similar with a more efficient (log(n)) auditing function with merkle authentication trees. If they aren't doing this someone should clue them in. Adam ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Sep 3 09:49:16 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:49:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: auditable gaming PRNGs (Re: PRNG server) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000831095346.00983b80@idiom.com> (message from Bill Stewart on Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:53:46 -0700) Message-ID: <200009031649.LAA00305@cypherspace.org> Seems to me you can do better with a gaming server. If the gaming server servers RNGs in a sequence such that each sample in the sequence can be verified, they don't need to trust the server; or at least there is an audit function. Eg. say that the server publishes subsequent pre-images in a hashchain. h_0 h_{i+1} = h_i and the server computes h_i values up to i = 10^8 and then publishes them starting with h_{10^8}, h_{10^8-1}, ... Then anyone can verify that the random number is the preimage of the previous random number. You do something similar with a more efficient (log(n)) auditing function with merkle authentication trees. If they aren't doing this someone should clue them in. Adam From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Sep 3 08:54:10 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:54:10 -0400 Subject: CDR: export reg timewarp? (Re: RC4 source as a literate program) Message-ID: <200009031656.LAA00314@cypherspace.org> The US export regulations no longer prevent export of crypto. PGP exported binary copies of PGP from US websites, as now do many other companies. Crypto source is exported also from numerous web sites. I don't follow why all the discussion talking as if ITAR and EARs were still in effect in unmodified form. Adam From jya at pipeline.com Sun Sep 3 09:26:42 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 12:26:42 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: export reg timewarp? (Re: RC4 source as a literate program) In-Reply-To: <200009031656.LAA00314@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <200009031634.MAA06683@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Adam Back wrote: >The US export regulations no longer prevent export of crypto. PGP >exported binary copies of PGP from US websites, as now do many other >companies. Crypto source is exported also from numerous web sites. > >I don't follow why all the discussion talking as if ITAR and EARs were >still in effect in unmodified form. Good point, except that PGP.com and Freeware still have export restrictions on downloads, as do most other US crypto export sites. This is probably due to the fact that nobody understands the export regs and better safe than lose out on fat government contracts, and corollary contracts with other corporations who dare not offend the authorities. Even some private sites which rushed to offer crypto on the Internet have withdrawn their offerings. And, according to Matt Blaze's tabulation of such offerings, they have nearly petered out. Don't forget that there is till a review required by BXA for strongest products. What happens in those reviews has not been disclosed as far as I know. Whether the NDA is voluntary to hide trade secrets, compulsary to hide dirty dealing, or worse to hide really nasty access requirements -- probably some of all these in the great American tradition of promising much and delivering not so much unless you play ball under the umpires clubhouse rules. Nicky Hager (of Secret Power fame) co-wrote another book on a PR war in NZ in which he covered at length the practice of governments and corporations hiding their filthy deals from freedom of information access through the loophole of protecting proprietary information from the public. Another commentator pointed out recently that the vast majority of FOIA requests are indeed made by people seeking commercial intelligence which is not intended to be made public , and relatively few seeking information to release to the public. So there is a bind on getting info on what actually happens at BXA and its co-agencies during crypto export review. However, in contrast to a few years back, I don't see many corporations or individuals calling for greater access to closed information about crypto export procedures. Could be all the crypto folks are doing just fine under the system, so why bitch about making it into the comfort zone. And, oh yeah, fuck the public interest now that the crypto public outreach PR campaigns did their job to get inside the sweetheart PR loophole. Doug Porter has written an interesting update about all this crypto flim-flam in the "Pocket Guide to NSA Sabotage:" http://cryptome.org/nsa-sabotage.htm And what the fuck is Schneier doing trashing crypto to build his security consulting business? That sounds like priests preaching Our Church Alone salvation to keep the flock frightened, dependent and shelling out for long term protection contracts. You know, like the one-world feds and all-world spooks. From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 02:48:16 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:48:16 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europenas In-Reply-To: <2a9628d23d99f4d9cd94010fcce47251@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, No User wrote: >> Nuh. I think they should be happy about biology education - might one day >> give them a nice young crackpot with the talent to create a drug user >> killing flu... > > Or better yet, a flu that killed everybody without sufficient THC residue >in their body. Or a modified influenza (which I think is a retrovirus - anybody?) which actually splices your THC gene into the subject's own genes for good, perhaps with a promoter area borrowed from some suitably chosen selectively activated gene (say, the gene controlling lactic acid metabolism which could make for a high every time the person engages in anything physical). Whatever. Of course there are lots of variations. Actually I think that the post about THC producing oranges is a bit far flung. From what I know about THC, it's pretty far from a protein, which are the only things produced under the control of a single gene. I also think that oranges are not very close relatives of hemp, so it is unlikely that close enough precursors to THC would be present to enable us to produce THC with the addition of a single enzymatic cleavage stage or some such simple step. And from what I know about genetic technology, it isn't quite on the level of enabling complicated (i.e. considerably more than a single gene) biochemical syntheses to be transferred from species to species. In a word, I think the magic oranges might be legend. Of course, there might be shortcuts - instead of using recombinant DNA techniques, we could perhaps try to get cells with both orange and hemp cellular nuclei to divide. I don't think either of these particular plants is prone to accepting such a treatment (unlike, I think, rye). Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Sep 3 05:25:54 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:25:54 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: CDR: Re: Re: Is kerberos broken? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, petro wrote: > Of course, a *simple* substitution of one word (or even >spaces) would make this *much* harder. As I said, people on this list hardly have a problem with dictionary attacks. > "Friends, Romulans, fellow countrymen, lend me your beers..." > > (I probably buthered the hell out of that, never having heard >or read the original, but I think it gets the point across) Wasn't that your whole point? ;) Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From sfurlong at acmenet.net Sun Sep 3 12:30:52 2000 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 15:30:52 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program References: <3.0.6.32.20000902145320.00970b40@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <39B2A6CB.1701DFB4@acmenet.net> David Honig wrote: > > At 09:14 AM 9/2/00 -0400, Steven Furlong wrote: > ><> > >As the President has made clear, encryption software is > >regulated because it has the technical capacity to encrypt data and > >by that jeopardize American security interests, not because of its > >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 13026, 1996 WL 666563. > > Were this true, carrying a copy of _Applied Crypto_ (not including > source) out of the country would be illegal. It is not. The law > is an ass. Yah, Judge Gwin appears pretty clueless here. And don't forget how the PGP source code was exported: printed using a special font, then carried to Europe, then scanned and OCR'd. An awful lot of wasted effort, for no gain in the US's national security. By the way, you got your aphorism wrong. It's "The law is a ass"; Mr. Bumble in Charles Dickins' _Oliver Twist_. Mr. Bumble was pretty much "a" ass himself, so I'm not sure that quoting him conveys quite the message that is usually intended. -- Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel 518-374-4720 sfurlong at acmenet.net From marcello.magnifico at rccr.cremona.it Sun Sep 3 16:06:47 2000 From: marcello.magnifico at rccr.cremona.it (Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:06:47 Subject: CDR: about this list, and a poor man's crypto Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it> I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why. 1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world. 2. I'm not bragging around about what illegal I did (if I ever did) and why I think I'm right (of course I am! ;->) and why the other guys are wrong (of course they are, indeed! ;->) 3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of: -discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide -"we hate pigs" -US local laws discussions (see 1) -simple fluff and/or flaming. 4. Some smeghead is boycotting the list by subscribing it to other lists, or the list address went into some spammer's archive spreaded worldwide. Sorry, but I don't like all that and can't stand the flow of a list that massively talks about anything else than crypto: that's why I'm leaving (now). For the nuisance of having read this apparently off-topic e-mail message, you should be at least rewarded with a poor man's crypto solution. :-) In Italy we don't seem having a corpus of laws about/against crypto, so it's possible to develop almost anything. Not being linked to general concepts and standards about what crypto is or should be, that's how I figured out the concept of "brute-force key". It's the trivial usage of large keys in non-public key environments, at the expenses of weakening the encryption algorythm. It may seem stupid, but current technology makes it possible and very effective, depending only on the ability of generating good random byte sequences. Let's say you store your key on a diskette that carries at least 170Kbytes (I can, so you should, too ;->). Well, a 170Kbytes key _is_ strong, and performance can be achieved by using a trivial XOR algorythm, in circular or bustrophedic (back-and-forth) sequence if the message to be sent is larger. XOR implies that the key MUST be a long random string, because you might want to transmit a file with long 0x00 sequences, too. XORing 0x00 exposes parts of your key, so they should look undistinguishable from non-null encrypted data, that will appear as random rubbish (that's the purpose of crypto, right? :->). Let's say someone sent you an encrypted file via e-mail. After the file is decrypted (you met in person one night, let's say eating some pizza, and passed the key; it's safer than passing it via modem), you can simply pass it through a Unix-like 'file(1)' utility and establish which program should read it (the message can be a text file, an archive or an executable; cryptanalysis is almost impossible when the spy doesn't know what the output looks like). A neat trick could be using a random sequence that is larger than any message you'll ever transmit (let's say you're using a Zip cartridge, a tape or a CD-Rom instead of a diskette). Another one would be interleaving random "disturbing" data while producing the encrypted file, by all means inflating it, in order to make cryptanalysis much harder. Fantasy is the only limit. Pass the encrypted stuff under stego, and you're 99% save because few people can detect stego and the transmission itself will be hidden for most Bad Guys. If you don't care about ITAR laws (and it seems that you, being the Cypherpunks, actually don't), then you can start developing your own "final" encryption system at any time, being sure it has no backdoors. 1M44, a nowadays' diskette size, is a very good key size that is REALLY impossible to brute-force attack by Your Enemy (that can be, i.e., your Big And Bad rival corporation on the market). For any developer not at a beginner level, the key doesn't need to physically fit in RAM memory and can be directly read from its physical support at need. For smart and very distant geeks, it's possible to use as a key some compressed (pseudo-random) files widely available (a game, an MP3 or such; even operating system portions) and use that "safer-than-nothing" channel to exchange the big key. bye, and have fun with crypto stuff! RDO P.S.- Legal disclaimer: this message and its contents were not developed in the United States. In no way the author is responsible for the use or misuse of this message or contents, nor for the message itself. From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Sun Sep 3 13:17:46 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:17:46 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: Sampo A Syreeni's message of "Sun, 3 Sep 2000 06:15:21 -0400" References: Message-ID: <84zolpgrhw.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Sampo A Syreeni writes: > On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: > > >Not to mention that there exists a certain peptide, the name of which > >escapes me at the moment, which is naturally occuring in the > >brain. It is five amino acids long, and exerts an effect about 5000 > >times stronger than that of Heroin. There are far more where that came > >from. > > Of course. Just as there is anandamide, the transmitter which hemp compounds > mainly mimic. Only you do not easily get such substances into the brain > without using a needle - proteins generally do not get through the > blood-brain barrier absent active transport. So you would need proteins > which, after somehow having been delivered in the blood stream whole, are > actively transported (this means extra 'handles' so that the molecule is > recognized) across the barrier, then we probably need a working mechanism > which then processes (cleaves, oxidises etc.) to obtain a final active > compound. All in all, you do not easily deliver proteins to the brain. Yes, I know that. The point, though, was that the war on drugs is futile and is about to be made worse. If you think our freedoms are compromised for the War on (some) Drugs now, just wait fifteen years. On the topic of the blood-brain barrier, another example is compounds such as cocaine, which exist in charged and uncharged forms. Normally, the ratio is something like 99:1, so it takes some time for the entire dose to actually get into the brain where it can do something. Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular" powder. Societies -- and American society in particular -- seem to loathe actually fixing problems. We find secondary or tertiary (or worse) symptoms, and try to treat those. This is partially because fixing the real roots of the problem also affects other things, makes some of the American people accept responsibility for some things, and is suicide to a politician. This doesn't work, of course. It's like giving someone with chronic headaches, vertigo, and dementia some asprin and psychoactive drugs; it masks the symptoms, but doesn't fix the problem, which might be a brain tumor. From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Sun Sep 3 13:18:37 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 16:18:37 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program In-Reply-To: David Honig's message of "Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:51:19 -0400" References: Message-ID: <84vgwdgrgg.fsf@athena.dhis.org> David Honig writes: > At 09:14 AM 9/2/00 -0400, Steven Furlong wrote: > ><> > >As the President has made clear, encryption software is > >regulated because it has the technical capacity to encrypt data and > >by that jeopardize American security interests, not because of its > >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 13026, 1996 WL 666563. > > Were this true, carrying a copy of _Applied Crypto_ (not including > source) out of the country would be illegal. It is not. The law > is an ass. So is the President and most of Congress. From We_The_People_ at webtv.net Sun Sep 3 14:11:13 2000 From: We_The_People_ at webtv.net (Patriots) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 17:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDR: ? Message-ID: <2609-39B2BE71-8934@storefull-236.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Can you send us a anonymous remailer that will work with the toy webtv ? Sons of Liberty Militia                                 Tim Stine 312 S. Wyomissing Ave.                             Shillington, Pa. 19607 U.S.A.                       1-610-775-0497 We_The_People_ at webtv.net What is a Militia ? Defenders of Liberty & Freedom, and the Constitutional Republic. Against Tyrants ! Foreign and Domestic ! Resist the United Nations New World Order, and it's Global Socialism, actually a Evil Oligarchy of the Superrich. We must Declare our Independence from the U.N. New World Order ! Or forever lose our freedom. We_Must_Resist. For_God_And_Country. The_American_Revolution_Continues !!! http://community.webtv.net/We_The_People_/SonsofLibertyMilitia From treborwh at bigpond.com Sun Sep 3 01:10:55 2000 From: treborwh at bigpond.com (Rob Henry) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:10:55 +1000 Subject: CDR: Sender: owner-cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com Message-ID: Explain what this site is please! cos' i'm very confused From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Sep 3 17:06:57 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 20:06:57 -0400 Subject: CDR: export reg timewarp? (Re: RC4 source as a literate program) In-Reply-To: <200009031656.LAA00314@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000903161039.02454a08@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 11:54 AM 9/3/2000 -0400, Adam Back wrote: > The US export regulations no longer prevent export of crypto. > PGPexported binary copies of PGP from US websites, as now do many > other companies. Crypto source is exported also from numerous web > sites. Because the law is still unclear and ambiguous, and the government likes to keep it that way. A plausible interpretation of current legislation, court decisions, regulations, and observed practice by enforcement agencies, is that code with public source code may be freely exported, and code with secret source code may be exported provided the government first gets to know all the weaknesses you are hiding from the public. However the government could decide tomorrow that what we thought the law is, is not actually the law, and we are all going to jail. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG rfi1pubCBFZOwR01VuZcfDdQx9XBa2LJRDuMEIws 4K2OgqaKgCp+9BWcwwXv0EITlnD3DomQOZ5ZY9lVT From info at vteams.com Sun Sep 3 22:38:44 2000 From: info at vteams.com (info at vteams.com) Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 22:38:44 -0700 Subject: CDR: Vteams Fantasy Sports Message-ID: <200009051211.FAA04454@toad.com> This is not a spam! You are receiving this message as an opt-in subscriber to our opt-in mailing list. If this is not the case, PLEASE accept our sincerest apologies and reply with "remove" in the subject field. We will remove your name immediately! Don't miss out!! www.vteams.com The newest edge to FREE FANTASY SPORTS. Opening season for NFL Football is upon us. WhooHoo! There is still time to play and compete for your chance to win $5000. So, Play to Win!!! www.vteams.com The lastest & greatest in FREE FANTASY SPORTS! **************************** NOTICE ************************************* This is not a Spam email and there are no sales offers contained in this email. You have received this email because you are listed on our in-house mailing list. If you have somehow gotten on this list in error, or for any other reason would like to be removed, please reply to this email with "remove" in the subject line of your message and you will be promptly removed. This message is being sent to you in compliance with the proposed Federal legislation for commercial e-mail (H.R.4176 - SECTION 101Paragraph (e)(1)(A)) AND Bills.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th U.S. Congress From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Mon Sep 4 00:07:05 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 03:07:05 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken? In-Reply-To: <200009030138.e831c8A01316@octarine.itsc.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Sep 2000, BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES wrote: >A human can easily remember 26 random letters from a 32 character >alphabet with a little mnemonic method (eg map each character to a >word so that it makes up some sort of dumb story). 5*26==130 which >is more bits than computers can currently exhaust over. True, especially if you salt with a suitably long random number and combine the two with a sufficiently nasty serial computation. Most of this thread does not, despite the strong wordings, actually concentrate on what average people *can* do but what they are likely to do when they do not have any real reason/incentive to guard their privacy. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Mon Sep 4 00:32:38 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 03:32:38 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <84zolpgrhw.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: >Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes >that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at >once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular" >powder. 'Freebasing' wasn't it? Cook in high pH to release the free alcaloid form from the salt. What I do not remember is the precise reason for the high permeability - water solubility? Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From baptista at pccf.net Mon Sep 4 06:09:11 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:09:11 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If I remember correctly - the formula is simple enough. 1 part (unit) cocain for every 10 parts (units) of baking soda. Mix well - add water until you have a paste - then smear past on flat baking pan - place in oven until mixture hardens (no I don't remember the temperture one uses - but it would be somewhere between 200 - 300 F). When the mixture hardens - you let it cool to room temputer and then hit it with a hammer to break it up - and viola - you have crack cocain - the most evil substance on the planet. regards Joe Baptista http://www.dot-god.com/ dot.GOD Hostmaster On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: > > >Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes > >that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at > >once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular" > >powder. > > 'Freebasing' wasn't it? Cook in high pH to release the free alcaloid form > from the salt. What I do not remember is the precise reason for the high > permeability - water solubility? > > Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university > > From brflgnk at cotse.com Mon Sep 4 06:20:53 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:20:53 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans Message-ID: <968073477.39b3a1059f443@webmail.cotse.com> Said by Sampo Syreeni : -- begin quote -- >Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes >that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at >once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular" >powder. 'Freebasing' wasn't it? Cook in high pH to release the free alcaloid form from the salt. What I do not remember is the precise reason for the high permeability - water solubility? -- end quote -- I don't think so. The hydrochloride form (regular "powder") is water-soluble, but the free alkaloid is fat-soluble. That's why it's smoked instead of snorted. But the process not only converts the cocaine, it also loses any dilution material ("cut"). So the final dose is, for all practical purposes, pure cocaine that needs no additional conversion in the bloodstream. It might not be permeability that's responsible for the different effect. Could be a simple matter of delivering a higher quantity of ready-to-permeate material. From ravage at ssz.com Mon Sep 4 07:24:12 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:24:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR: Quantum 'dead' time found [science daily] Message-ID: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/09/000901080350.htm ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 4 09:42:47 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:42:47 -0700 Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting In-Reply-To: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de> References: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 2:19 PM +0200 9/4/00, Tom Vogt wrote: > >- a place >========= >since the number of participants is a total variable, that's a difficult >part. I'm currently looking for some kind of cafe or other place with >both indoors and outdoors seats/tables that's large enough, has an >acceptable atmosphere and is otherwise suitable. > > >- an agenda >=========== >there should be at least a rough outline and a topic or two. if anyone >wants to speak about a specific topic, tell me. First, good luck on your meeting. Second, here's my experience with informal Cypherpunks physical meetings: * we in the Bay Area have had numerous informal gatherings at coffee shops, outdoor seating areas, other public areas (a la '2600"). And this is with an attendance sometimes reaching 50. (Which, in my crotchety opinion, is too high. Attendance over about 20 tends to make the event a lecture rather than a gathering.) * agendas are seldom needed. We got by in the first, and most interesting, few years of the Cypherpunks will little or no agenda in advance. We sat around a table or on the floor and we talked. Sometimes someone got up and went to a blackboard, if available, and drew pictures. * too much of a formal agenda tends to encourage "guest speakers," which, in my view, is _not_ a good idea. Sometimes a notable guest speaker is a good idea, but usually the result is that someone not part of the culture talks about what his or her company or organization is doing...things which are readily discoverable from Web sources. * and don't be afraid to discuss politics and political implications of technologies. Again, this used to be more common in the early days of the Bay Area Cypherpunks meetings. (As time passed, as meetings grew larger, politics just about vanished completely. Perhaps this is too harsh an assessment, but I believe the Bay Area Cypherpunks meetings in the past few years have just become the place for twentysomething geeks to show up to talk to others and to check out job prospects. Almost _none_ of the 50 or so attendees at a typical Saturday gathering are participants in the Cypherpunks list, tellingly.) Bigger is not always better. In conclusion, I encourage you to just "hang loose." ("lose sein") --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bear at sonic.net Mon Sep 4 09:52:10 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDR: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.1.20000831214532.00b93820@mail.intplsrv.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Sean Roach wrote: >As regards Petro's response to same. >Read up on the history of the U.S.A., and U.K. >Unless I've misinterpreted, slaves were forbidden to learn to read in the U.S. Not exactly. They weren't forbidden to learn; however, it was forbidden for anyone (including other slaves) to teach them. It amounts to the same general thing (instruction being unavailable to them) but when a bunch of slaves gathered around Sojourner Truth for lessons in reading, it was her that was breaking the law, not them. >Native Americans were made to give up thier traditions in favor of >"civilized" customs. Yeah. And some of them did and some of them didn't. >And the Irish were similary denied the ability to read, or to play thier >traditional music. (Bards tended to sing songs counter to the english >policies.) It's a long damn tradition, unfortunately. In England, it goes back to the Norman invasion and the way the Saxons were treated; but the Normans were just copying the Romans, and the Romans were just copying the Greeks. >Last I heard, the bagpipe was still considered a weapon. There's a guy who gives Foghorn "concerts" in Golden Gate Park. He has to wear hearing protection and a padded suit, otherwise it leaves bruises all over his body and he can't hear for a few days. His face still winds up black-and-blue, especially around the eyes. There's a law against playing amplified instruments without a permit -- but foghorns aren't amplified, they're just LOUD. After hearing this guy once, I did an interesting study in sound physics, which leads me to believe it is probably possible to create a vehicle-mounted, deisel-powered bagpipe-like device that could be used to play tunes and which would simultaneously destroy buildings. Considering the bagpipe a weapon isn't that far off.... and not just for reasons of the ideas behind the songs they traditionally accompany. >If I heard right, It became illegal to speak Scottish Gaelic, for a time. When the culture of a conqueror is sufficiently different, and they can get away with it, they always try to take the native language away. That takes away all the old songs and poetry, and most of the stories, and makes it easier to stamp your own culture on a subjugated people. Bear From waterhouse at inficad.com Mon Sep 4 03:45:08 2000 From: waterhouse at inficad.com (waterhouse) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:45:08 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <00090410451801.31594@split> From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Mon Sep 4 12:35:36 2000 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:35:36 -0800 (PDT) Subject: CDR: "..do not count on the anonymity of the Internet to serve as a shield for your illegal conduct" Message-ID: <200009041845.LAA05107@mail5.hushmail.com> >"Anyone who would use the Internet to commit a crime should understand one thing -- do not count on the anonymity of the Internet to serve as a shield for your illegal conduct. As technology advances, so do our investigative techniques and our abilities to protect the public." Quite true. However, any well informed LE-type will tell you only amateurs are likely to be caught. I dare say if we select one of this list's more informed members, say Black Unicorn, and assume he intended to engage in a similar exploit as this fellow from Bloomberg. I would find it highly unlikely that BU would ever be apprehended for the deed (assuming he didn't brag). ks From honig at sprynet.com Mon Sep 4 08:39:11 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:39:11 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: <84zolpgrhw.fsf@athena.dhis.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904083240.00978e30@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:17 PM 9/3/00 -0400, David Marshall wrote: >On the topic of the blood-brain barrier, another example is compounds There's also a trick where you can add an acetyl group to a small molecule (not protein) to increase transport. Do it to salicylic acid, you get aspirin. Do it to morphine, you get heroin. FWIW From honig at sprynet.com Mon Sep 4 08:39:12 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:39:12 -0400 Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program In-Reply-To: <39B2A6CB.1701DFB4@acmenet.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904083050.00975af0@pop.sprynet.com> >> At 09:14 AM 9/2/00 -0400, Steven Furlong wrote: >> ><> >> >As the President has made clear, encryption software is >> >regulated because it has the technical capacity to encrypt data and >> >by that jeopardize American security interests, not because of its >> >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 13026, 1996 WL 666563. Is this much different from the future proclamation: >> >As the [Judge] has made clear, [DeCSS] software is >> >regulated because it has the technical capacity to [decrypt] data and >> >by that jeopardize American [economic] interests, not because of its >> >expressive content. Exec. Order No. 666, WIPO No. 666 And how soon before posting of multimedia or filesharing tools requires the equivalent of the (unbounded) BXA/spook review/approval? "Ominous parallels" From schear at lvcm.com Mon Sep 4 11:55:29 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:55:29 -0700 Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans In-Reply-To: References: <84itsgc8rn.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20000904115249.0840a5f0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:15 AM 9/3/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, David Marshall wrote: > > >Not to mention that there exists a certain peptide, the name of which > >escapes me at the moment, which is naturally occuring in the > >brain. It is five amino acids long, and exerts an effect about 5000 > >times stronger than that of Heroin. There are far more where that came > >from. > >Of course. Just as there is anandamide, the transmitter which hemp compounds >mainly mimic. Only you do not easily get such substances into the brain >without using a needle - proteins generally do not get through the >blood-brain barrier absent active transport. Most inhaled substances can easily circumvent the brain-blood barrier through a nasal path (forget which). Its now become a common dosage approach for certain brain medicines. steve From apoio at giganetstore.com Mon Sep 4 04:56:12 2000 From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:56:12 +0100 Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Regresso_=E0s_Aulas?= Message-ID: <0022c1356110490WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Aprender é certamente a maior aventura do Homem. Eis algumas das nossas sugestões... Dic. Port./Ing. gigapreço 5.890$00 Auto da Barca do Inferno gigapreço 5.490$00 Eu adoro Matemática gigapreço 6.500$00 Pasta Kanguros 40 (Cx.6) gigapreço 3.190$00 Marcadores Stabilo Boss gigapreço 1.590$00 Compasso Rotring Universal gigapreço 2.390$00 Organizador 3M C-61 gigapreço 3.290$00 Borracha Office 20 (Cx.10) gigapreço 780$00 PC2000 +Scan.HP +Imp.HP gigapreço 249.900$00 Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4167 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ricardo.de Mon Sep 4 04:00:20 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:00:20 +0200 Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken? References: Message-ID: <39B380C4.CA5BF2FA@ricardo.de> petro wrote: > Of course, a *simple* substitution of one word (or even > spaces) would make this *much* harder. > > "Friends, Romulans, fellow countrymen, lend me your beers..." not likely. crack has been guessing simple substitutions for years. From tcmay at got.net Mon Sep 4 13:03:16 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:03:16 -0700 Subject: CDR: Re: about this list, and a poor man's crypto In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it> References: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it> Message-ID: At 4:06 PM -0700 9/3/00, Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico wrote: >I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why. > >1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world. Anyon is free to post, even people from Italy. That there are very few subscribers from Italy, or Botswana, or Gondwanaland, is just the way it is. > >2. I'm not bragging around about what illegal I did (if I ever did) and why >I think I'm right (of course I am! ;->) and why the other guys are wrong >(of course they are, indeed! ;->) "Bragging about what illegal I did" is in the context of civil liberties and the ground truth of cypherspace. If you don't "get it," it's probably best that you follow through on your promise to leave. Auf wiedersehen! Ciao! > >3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of: > -discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide > -"we hate pigs" > -US local laws discussions (see 1) > -simple fluff and/or flaming. And just which articles have _you_ contributed? > > In Italy we don't seem having a corpus of laws about/against crypto, so >it's possible to develop almost anything. Not being linked to general >concepts and standards about what crypto is or should be, that's how I >figured out the concept of "brute-force key". It's the trivial usage of >large keys in non-public key environments, at the expenses of weakening the >encryption algorythm. It may seem stupid, but current technology makes it >possible and very effective, depending only on the ability of generating >good random byte sequences. First, Italy has no corpus of laws about/against crypto for the simple reason that Italy has a weak Internet culture. Weaker than France, which is saying a lot. When you wake up some day and find that the Protection of the Constitution Law has been passed by your parliament, don't come to us and say "But I had no idea this was coming." Second, beware variants of the bogus "virtual one-time pad." Using keying material to encipher plaintext is an idea as old as the hills, even the hills of Rome. > > Let's say you store your key on a diskette that carries at >least 170Kbytes >(I can, so you should, too ;->). Well, a 170Kbytes key _is_ strong, and >performance can be achieved by using a trivial XOR algorythm, in circular >or bustrophedic (back-and-forth) sequence if the message to be sent is >larger. XOR implies that the key MUST be a long random string, because you >might want to transmit a file with long 0x00 sequences, too. XORing 0x00 >exposes parts of your key, so they should look undistinguishable from >non-null encrypted data, that will appear as random rubbish (that's the >purpose of crypto, right? :->). Cf. basic textbooks on crypto for why this is not a good solution. Read especially the parts on key distribution, on flaws arising from re-use of key material (cf. the Walker case), etc. Read also the mid-70s papers on why public key systems have such compelling advantages. I know this 25-year-old material must be boring to an enlightened Italian such as yourself, but you may find it useful to see why we backward Americans adopted public key systems over ""trivial XOR algorithms." > > If you don't care about ITAR laws (and it seems that you, being the >Cypherpunks, actually don't), For a very good reason: no state may compel a person to communicate only in certain forms acceptable to the state. If you don't get this point either, it's probably hopeless. Maybe you can find a copy of "1984" for starters. Meanwhile, claiming that the list is not what you would like it to be is, especially when you have not contributed anything, is...typical. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bear at sonic.net Mon Sep 4 13:24:52 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 13:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes) In-Reply-To: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Sep 2000 ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote: >Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language. The >Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a Californian >to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may even have >spoken Latin. An interesting point: There are ancient inscriptions in Wales that no one has been able to read in modern times. Deciphering an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never been done. And, as language, doubtless it has regular structure, patterns, grammar, and the flexibility of use that people in everyday lives need in speaking - and presumably they're not even encrypted. "Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto, may consist in creating an artificial language together, and then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on. Bear From tom at ricardo.de Mon Sep 4 05:19:39 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 14:19:39 +0200 Subject: CDR: europe physical meeting Message-ID: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de> sorry for the delays - I've been very busy with this DeCSS stuff. back to the meeting: I'm looking for 3 more things: - a time - a place - an agenda here's the rundown: - a time ======== my current plan says: Friday, 29th. September 2000 that is close enough to actually happen, and still long enough to allow for planning and travel arrangements. if anyone wants to come, but can't on that specific date, please yell NOW and make an alternative suggestion. - a place ========= since the number of participants is a total variable, that's a difficult part. I'm currently looking for some kind of cafe or other place with both indoors and outdoors seats/tables that's large enough, has an acceptable atmosphere and is otherwise suitable. - an agenda =========== there should be at least a rough outline and a topic or two. if anyone wants to speak about a specific topic, tell me. From bear at sonic.net Mon Sep 4 14:25:18 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 14:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDR: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Sep 2000, Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico wrote: >3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of: > -discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide > -"we hate pigs" > -US local laws discussions (see 1) > -simple fluff and/or flaming. I'm with him, actually, about list content. I had hoped to find tech discussions going on. In the interest of making some news if you don't like the news you're getting, I present -- the Country Mile Cipher. Algorithm details available (for now) on http://www.sonic.net/~bear/crypto/countrymile.html This is a stream cipher based on the Blum-Blum-Shub pseuodo- random number generator -- and on work done more recently by Ronald Rivest, who "digitally sealed" a message that he expects to take 30 years of continuous computing to unscramble. The Country Mile Cipher has one interesting property; You can choose when you encrypt a message how much computing power it will require to decrypt it. This interesting property has two useful applications: First, you can make it that much more difficult to "brute-force" a key, so even if you are restricted in key length, you can still achieve reasonable security. Second, you can use it to "digitally seal" messages to people that will not unseal without a specified amount of computing time. I can foresee protocols where someone not having information for a specified length of time after it's delivered would be useful - It could be treated as a "bit commitment scheme" where the person making the commitment does not need to do anything else. Anyway - there's very little here that's my own invention. The Blum-Blum-Shub Random Number Generator is well-tested, and the mathematics for predicting its state into the future are explained in Schnier's book. I haven't really done anything except put some well-known and well-tested pieces together, so I'm pretty confident of the security of the Country Mile Cipher. So confident, in fact, that if anyone can come up with a viable attack on it, I will cheerfully pay the *first* person to do so fifty US dollars. :-) Ray Dillinger From ravage at ssz.com Mon Sep 4 13:33:34 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 15:33:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CDR: Re: about this list, and a poor man's crypto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 4:06 PM -0700 9/3/00, Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico wrote: > >I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why. > > > >1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world. > > Anyon is free to post, even people from Italy. That there are very > few subscribers from Italy, or Botswana, or Gondwanaland, is just the > way it is. That and none of them are willing to set up nodes, and advertise same localy, to help widen the reach of the list. A pity that the people doing the bitching are the ones empowered to fix it... ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cards at xqses.com Mon Sep 4 13:45:08 2000 From: cards at xqses.com (cards at xqses.com) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 00 15:45:08 EST Subject: CDR: You have received a greeting card Message-ID: <199702170025.GAA08056@nowhere.com> 

Dear cypherpunks at toad.com,

Hello , Jennifer has just sent you a E-card from
xqses.com

You can pick up your personal message here:

http://www.xqses.com/tarjetas/tarjetas?action=showcard&code=20000804141041

Send FREE E-cards

http://www.xqses.com











From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Sep  4 13:01:47 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:01:47 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: about this list, and a poor man's crypto
References: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it>
Message-ID: <39B3FF85.C276AE4C@acmenet.net>

"Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico" wrote:
> 
> I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why.

Don't let the doorknob hit you in the ass on the way out.

That being said, you make some points worth addressing.


> 1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world.

True, both parts. However, it seems that the majority of the regular
posters are American, and naturally are concerned about American
issues. Also, like it or not, the US is the behemoth of today's world,
and American regulations on crypto or the Internet will have an impact
on the rest of the world.


> 2. I'm not bragging around about what illegal I did (if I ever did) and why
> I think I'm right (of course I am! ;->) and why the other guys are wrong
> (of course they are, indeed! ;->)

Uh, ok, thanks for sharing.


> 3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of:
>         -discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide
>         -"we hate pigs"
>         -US local laws discussions (see 1)
>         -simple fluff and/or flaming.

Most unmoderated Usenet groups and mailing lists have a sizeable share
of "chatting" between participants. It's a fact of life. You can put
up with it, address it intelligently with filters or other means,
whine about it, or leave.

Coderpunks is a mailing list devoted to programming issues around
crypto. It has much less chatting and other cruft. See the archive at
http://www.mail-archive.com/coderpunks%40toad.com/
Subscribe to the list via a "subscribe coderpunks" message to
majordomo at toad.com

By the way, I don't recall having seen any on-topic posts from you.
Did you do anything to improve the signal-to-noise ratio on c-punks,
or did you just complain about it?


> 4. Some smeghead is boycotting the list by subscribing it to other lists,
> or the list address went into some spammer's archive spreaded worldwide.

That annoys many of the regular participants, too, as you might note
from reading the traffic regularly.

You might try reading c-punks on http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks
That'll let you read the traffic on threads that interest you without
being bothered by threads that don't.


-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From weinmann at rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de  Mon Sep  4 07:03:09 2000
From: weinmann at rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de (Ralf-Philipp Weinmann)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:03:09 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Tom Vogt wrote:

> here's the rundown:
> 
> - a time
> ========
> my current plan says: Friday, 29th. September 2000
> that is close enough to actually happen, and still long enough to allow
> for planning and travel arrangements.
> if anyone wants to come, but can't on that specific date, please yell
> NOW and make an alternative suggestion.

sounds ok. has anyone heard what happened to the RSA patent expiration
party on sept 20, that was supposed to take place in amsterdam btw ?

> 
> - a place
> =========
> since the number of participants is a total variable, that's a difficult
> part. I'm currently looking for some kind of cafe or other place with
> both indoors and outdoors seats/tables that's large enough, has an
> acceptable atmosphere and is otherwise suitable.

hmm.. we're still talking about hamburg here, right ? you're right in so
far as since this is the first european cypherpunk meeting one can have
absolutely no idea how many people will be showing. depending on how well
announced the meeting is i'd guess > 50 people however (maybe the bay area
people can give us a rough count on how much people are showing to an averge
meeting there and we can try to extrapolate something from that - cultural
difference nonwithstanding :)... there were physical meetings in non-west-coast
places as well, dunno remember where however. the numbers for those should be 
a little bit more of a benchmark/pointer to us).
A cafe sounds like a good idea, we might try meeting at a mall, on a public
place or somewhere else however.

> - an agenda
> ===========
> there should be at least a rough outline and a topic or two. if anyone
> wants to speak about a specific topic, tell me.

still thinking about that. i have a couple of topics in mind. will post
to the list after further re-consideration.

let's get things kicking!

cheers,
-ralf

--
Ralf-P. Weinmann 
PGP fingerprint: 2048/46C772078ACB58DEF6EBF8030CBF1724




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Mon Sep  4 13:38:36 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:38:36 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
References: 
Message-ID: <39B40838.43AF6BC6@acmenet.net>

Ray Dillinger wrote:
> "Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto,
> may consist in creating an artificial language together, and
> then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on.

cf my remarks and questions on the use of Lojban for a personal log.
Lojban is an artificial language with a user base of several hundred.
I started a thread in mid-July. The consensus, from this list and some
law-oriented newsgroups, is that you can't be forced to translate a
journal written in a non-English language. Possibly you can't even be
forced to identify the language it's written in.

The matter of whether you can be forced to either decrypt encrypted
files or to provide the key is more confused: I got approximately
equal numbers of responses saying you can't be forced to decrypt and
saying you can be so forced.

I have not run either of those questions past lawyers that I've paid,
so the responses may be worth no more than I paid for them.


SRF
-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  4 16:45:23 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:45:23 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 1:24 PM -0700 9/4/00, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>An interesting point:  There are ancient inscriptions in Wales 
>that no one has been able to read in modern times.  Deciphering
>an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is
>written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that
>transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never
>been done. 
>
>And, as language, doubtless it has regular structure, patterns,
>grammar, and the flexibility of use that people in everyday lives
>need in speaking - and presumably they're not even encrypted.
>
>"Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto,
>may consist in creating an artificial language together, and
>then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on.

How is your "Poor Man's Crypto" different in any way from _codes_?

Cf. any standard text on why codes are not nearly as useful as ciphers.

--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From dis-list at rebelbase.com  Mon Sep  4 16:54:22 2000
From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (dis-list at rebelbase.com)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 16:54:22 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39B40838.43AF6BC6@acmenet.net>
 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000904165329.02c16328@mail.rebelbase.com>


>A criminal defendant has the right to remain silent. He cannot be 
>compelled to tell where evidence is located. He cannot be compelled to 
>testify against himself. (BTW, don't even bother, anyone, to bring out the 
>old chestnut of a person picking "I committed this crime" as his 
>passphrase. Dealt with convincingly many years ago.)

Can you expand on that?

I don't remember that issue being dealt with in a legal manner at all.


-Ian




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  4 17:13:55 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:13:55 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000904165329.02c16328@mail.rebelbase.com>
References: <39B40838.43AF6BC6@acmenet.net>
 
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000904165329.02c16328@mail.rebelbase.com>
Message-ID: 

At 4:54 PM -0700 9/4/00, dis-list at rebelbase.com wrote:
>>A criminal defendant has the right to remain silent. He cannot be 
>>compelled to tell where evidence is located. He cannot be compelled 
>>to testify against himself. (BTW, don't even bother, anyone, to 
>>bring out the old chestnut of a person picking "I committed this 
>>crime" as his passphrase. Dealt with convincingly many years ago.)
>
>Can you expand on that?
>
>I don't remember that issue being dealt with in a legal manner at all.
>

How many years have you been subscribed? How much of the archives 
have you searched?

In a nutshell, there is a recognized difference between the form of a 
statement and the content of a statement. A court would stipulate 
that uttering a passphrase would only be used in the context of the 
passphrase, not as an admission of guilt.

As I said, there's a section in the Cyphernomicon on this.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From jdd at vbc.net  Mon Sep  4 10:38:26 2000
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 18:38:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote:

> >And the Irish were similary denied the ability to read, or to play thier 
> >traditional music.  (Bards tended to sing songs counter to the english 
> >policies.)  
> 
> It's a long damn tradition, unfortunately.  In England, it goes back 
> to the Norman invasion and the way the Saxons were treated; but the 
> Normans were just copying the Romans, and the Romans were just copying 
> the Greeks.  

It's easy to look at history in this way, seeing some people as 
villians and other as victims.  But do remember that St Patrick 
wasn't Irish at all.  He was an English boy, stolen by Irish pirates
and sold into slavery in Ireland.  And for centuries English kings
used Irish mercenaries to subdue their unruly subjects.

> When the culture of a conqueror is sufficiently different, and they 
> can get away with it, they always try to take the native language 
> away.  That takes away all the old songs and poetry, and most of the 
> stories, and makes it easier to stamp your own culture on a subjugated 
> people.

But this is mostly just laziness.  When Patrick didn't do what he
was told, I'm sure that his masters made no effort to learn his
language.  They just shouted at him louder in Gaelic.

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Mon Sep  4 11:17:09 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:17:09 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>

>> But do remember that St Patrick 
>> wasn't Irish at all.  He was an English boy, stolen by Irish pirates
>> and sold into slavery in Ireland.

De-lurking briefly to correct this...

St Patrick was a Romano-Briton. There were no English in Britain at the
time he lauched his Irish mission. There was no English language, and
certainly no English identity. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes that make
up the English (an identity that only established itself when the
Franco-Norman ruling dynasty in England lost its territories in France)
were spread across Germany and Denmark at the time.

>> But this is mostly just laziness.  When Patrick didn't do what he
>> was told, I'm sure that his masters made no effort to learn his
>> language.  They just shouted at him louder in Gaelic.

Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language. The
Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a Californian
to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may even have
spoken Latin.

All the best

Tiarnan




From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep  4 16:42:06 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 19:42:06 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <39B40838.43AF6BC6@acmenet.net>
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 4:38 PM -0400 9/4/00, Steven Furlong wrote:
>Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>  "Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto,
>>  may consist in creating an artificial language together, and
>>  then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on.
>
>cf my remarks and questions on the use of Lojban for a personal log.
>Lojban is an artificial language with a user base of several hundred.
>I started a thread in mid-July. The consensus, from this list and some
>law-oriented newsgroups, is that you can't be forced to translate a
>journal written in a non-English language. Possibly you can't even be
>forced to identify the language it's written in.
>
>The matter of whether you can be forced to either decrypt encrypted
>files or to provide the key is more confused: I got approximately
>equal numbers of responses saying you can't be forced to decrypt and
>saying you can be so forced.
>
>I have not run either of those questions past lawyers that I've paid,
>so the responses may be worth no more than I paid for them.

And almost any attorney you would be able to hire would not have a 
clue on this issue. Possibly some world-class first and fifth 
amendment scholars would have a clue, possibly some EFF- or 
former-EFF lawyers, possibly some cyberlaw-clued folks, but not any 
lawyer you'd fine in a typical city in the phone book.

The specific issue of compelling a key has not yet been tested in a 
major court case. Mike Godwin wrote up some views on this some years 
ago (long enough ago that I quoted it in my 1994 "Cyphernomicon').

There are good reasons for the governments of the world (even 
Italy's, for our Italian friend who is insulted that we don't write 
enough about Italy) not to want to test the limits of the law: 
adhocracies like ambiguity.

And of course they're worried they might lose a high-visibility case 
involving crypto, so they don't push the issue.

Lastly, in most cases they don't need to try to compell disclosure of 
a key. They either have the records or can get them some other way, 
or they can rig the case some other way. Having a case depend on a 
particular encrypted record is unlikely, though it may be more common 
in the future.

What about the right to remain silent? How does the Fifth Amendment 
impinge on this issue?

A criminal defendant has the right to remain silent. He cannot be 
compelled to tell where evidence is located. He cannot be compelled 
to testify against himself. (BTW, don't even bother, anyone, to bring 
out the old chestnut of a person picking "I committed this crime" as 
his passphrase. Dealt with convincingly many years ago.)

Of more likely interest will be encrypted records in "discovery" 
cases. And in those cases a person is required to provide reasonable 
assistance, e.g., in helping the attorney of a spouse in determining 
where assets are located. Encryption would not even be an issue. The 
judge would simply order the records converted into readable form, on 
pain of contempt or, worse, on pain of a divorce settlement massively 
favoring the spouse.

(A nit: sometimes parties in a case try to overwhelm the other side 
with junk, as in shipping hundreds of boxes of documents to the other 
side. The IBM antitrust case, for example. This might be a good case 
to look at to see how and where the court compelled IBM to help in 
deciphering (English meaning, not crypto meaning) the hundreds of 
thousands of documents.)

--Tim May

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From roach_s at intplsrv.net  Mon Sep  4 18:47:56 2000
From: roach_s at intplsrv.net (Sean Roach)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:47:56 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.1.20000904203034.00a96b20@mail.intplsrv.net>

At 01:24 PM 9/4/2000 -0700, Ray Dillinger wrote:
...
>An interesting point:  There are ancient inscriptions in Wales
>that no one has been able to read in modern times.  Deciphering
>an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is
>written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that
>transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never
>been done.
>
>And, as language, doubtless it has regular structure, patterns,
>grammar, and the flexibility of use that people in everyday lives
>need in speaking - and presumably they're not even encrypted.
>
>"Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto,
>may consist in creating an artificial language together, and
>then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on.


That sound like the Navajo codetalkers.

I can see two easy problems with this.
A secret shared is no secret.  If even one person versed in the language 
were to side with the opposing front, all records written in that cypher 
would become open.
A new language would have to have new words for practically 
everything.  Any borrowed word would open the language up to analysis.  If 
you didn't get around to inventing a word for digital recording.  You had 
digital, but you forgot recording, then saying  recording in a 
sentance, would give someone a clue to grammatical 
structure.  Unfortunately, to get a sufficient vocabulary to be flexible, 
would require a larger population using the language.
If the language is sufficiently difficult to learn, it might be useful as a 
code but it would be hard to extend the population who could use it.

If I remember my history, which is not to say that I do, the Codetalkers 
method worked because there was a small population who knew the language 
already, none of them were acquired by the Japaneese, learning the language 
was difficult, (the missionary who suggested it had managed to learn it 
some, if memory serves), and the language had existed, and been used, 
enough to be sufficiently complex.
Still not complex enough.  They had to spell some things out, like placenames.


If just two people contrived it, then what they might have to say to one 
another might be secure, but would be limited to topics they had discussed 
in detail before, or related topics.

If a population of 1,000 spoke it with fluency, and had for several years, 
the language may be able to deal with just about any current concept or 
object, but the opposition would almost certainly have access to the 
language as well.

This would seem to limit the language to making disparaging comments about 
the person ahead of you at the checkout stand, confident that she didn't 
know what you were saying about him or her.  Or discussing the shoplifting 
of luxeries with your schoolmates, relatively confident that the store 
clerk wouldn't know what you were planning, or even that you might not be 
casually discussing last nights game.  Both examples I've suspected I might 
have witnessed.

Good luck,

Sean




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Mon Sep  4 21:33:29 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 21:33:29 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: about this list, and a poor man's crypto
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000904213329.008eb830@idiom.com>

At 04:06 PM 9/3/00, Marcello 'R.D.O.' Magnifico wrote:
>I'm telling you I'm leaving, and why.
>1. The list appears to be USA-centric, and Internet covers the whole world.

The standard way to fix problems like that is to post non-USA-centric
content :-)


>3. I expected a lot of tech issues and found instead a bunch of:
>	-discussions on racism, religion, gov't behavior worldwide
>	-"we hate pigs"
>	-US local laws discussions (see 1)
>	-simple fluff and/or flaming.

You're not the only one to complain about this.  (See answer 1.)
cryptography-request at c2.net will get you a moderated list that's broader
than coderpunks,
but narrower than cypherpunks, no spam, low flaming.



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From bruble-admin at nym.alias.net  Mon Sep  4 14:41:24 2000
From: bruble-admin at nym.alias.net (Admin of Bruble Anonymous Remailer)
Date: 4 Sep 2000 21:41:24 -0000
Subject: CDR: Bruble2 is back
Message-ID: <20000904214124.6317.qmail@nym.alias.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hi to all,

Bruble2 is now back and kicking. Queued mail processed

You can add capabilities string
$remailer{"bruble2"} =  "cpunk mix hybrid middle pgp pgponly latent ek ekx esub cut hash repgp remix ext max test inflt150 rhop5 klen1024";

Keys are unchanged and available from remailer.

Yours

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: N/A

iQEVAwUBObLX8rjwkQXxOXLNAQFPlgf+Kiv1KbQoVz9krMj/eXZajHRv6sWd2V6o
y4q7PN75kzlnuiYvN2OKC1kk2ENrDXf5MptE8RRecuytXrCCCFhy+eZnJ35gaSWJ
gLvPEHga75IlcMXlNhkk6Vcw1ENi03k4D2g17/GfbjKavKQYAB2c1sVJWLOj7NbX
gIr/JyMHnYmekGpWraen18c1R78+UYK21vtjiVkmunVF5RCFq6d0dLQfwAdD1stN
Fc450ZHP0IVHpHxMXI4hYSGP9L4w576pQQb34LZitVExZ7lKymypy/RPMJWh5Yc/
FGMtOqUv2z8s2WRM2ptOfHbt1kClxRNsMOgLLYqcdCQj29KAw3T7kQ==
=bCD5
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

~~~
This PGP signature only certifies the sender and date of the message.
It implies no approval from the administrators of nym.alias.net.
Date: Mon Sep  4 21:41:19 2000 GMT
From: bruble-admin at nym.alias.net

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBObQXA05NDhYLYPHNAQFcuQf+PnrKlVwJ8ycrDC5O3YSGyplSVyq3Np5w
w3fQ9O+dpJPhgspR2FueEvBqQb1WXyXZ/3va3b1PjFRjH29Wt1ygiCOGBbVghDJe
XcE0nqXGWCA90jn6UeMUl8KPF9EFC016gFlxq8/exqSXGGKRNdBijPj5Umm3aTPN
ApeVYY6ZJPE9xl06aajYOFTvytqc3afJz5QB+BF1cjbieqfDwWkBTlzMJog4V2bu
Ws22euXYAMu2/jLkd95HDkBJXOrDiKXUj1LsvqVzhH4v9zamOzKb+FR78fpbBcwX
lFhazroDa8szrUlxbq5byHOIpYiKCPFg67l+Q94iYst2WOa0/2IO2w==
=dVcc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From jdd at vbc.net  Mon Sep  4 13:45:24 2000
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 21:45:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000 ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:

> >> But do remember that St Patrick 
> >> wasn't Irish at all.  He was an English boy, stolen by Irish pirates
> >> and sold into slavery in Ireland.
> 
> De-lurking briefly to correct this...

Oooooo  Shows what happen when you post casually to the
cypherpunks list ;-)

You are right.  I should have said that he was a British lad.

> St Patrick was a Romano-Briton. There were no English in Britain at the
> time he lauched his Irish mission. There was no English language, and
> certainly no English identity. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes that make
> up the English (an identity that only established itself when the
> Franco-Norman ruling dynasty in England lost its territories in France)
> were spread across Germany and Denmark at the time.
> 
> >> But this is mostly just laziness.  When Patrick didn't do what he
> >> was told, I'm sure that his masters made no effort to learn his
> >> language.  They just shouted at him louder in Gaelic.
> 
> Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language. The
> Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a Californian
> to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may even have
> spoken Latin.

Several authorities, eg the Cathoic Encyclopedia, say that St Patrick
became fluent in the language of the Irish while in slavery.  Some
claim that he was born in Scotland, some say in Wales.  None support
your suggestion that the language of his masters was his native
tongue.  

The real point here is that the Irish, generally portrayed as 
victims of the British, were sometimes victims, sometimes villians --
like most everybody else.  

PS.  I am immensely fond of Ireland; me mother is Irish, in fact ;-)

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Mon Sep  4 14:13:08 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (Tiarnan O Corrain)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:13:08 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: ; from jdd@vbc.net on Mon, Sep 04, 2000 at 21:45:24 +0100
References: 
Message-ID: <20000904221308.A2113@localhost.localdomain>


> > Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language. The
> > Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a Californian
> > to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may even have
> > spoken Latin.
> 
> Several authorities, eg the Cathoic Encyclopedia, say that St Patrick
> became fluent in the language of the Irish while in slavery.  Some
> claim that he was born in Scotland, some say in Wales. 

Both Scotland and Wales contained people who spoke Celtic languages. 
Although it is difficult to determine where Patrick is from, I believe the
scholarly working consensus is that he was from the Roman province of
Britannia, where the majority of the inhabitants would have spoken a
language of Celtic origin. Perhaps my analogy of New York and Californain
English was misleading: a truer example would be the relationship of
Spanish with Catalan, or Sicilian with Tyrolean. That's to say,
mutually intelligible, with difficulty. Traders and slave-traders
(such as the slaver who captured Patrick) would have traded with
the Roman Empire in Britain and elsewhere, so presumably a lingua
franca emerged. No doubt Patrick learned his powerful mastery of
Old Irish from his captors.

[If you want to read more on the subject, from sources more up-to-date
and historically accurate than the Catholic Encyclopedia, try
http://www.ucc.ie/~peritia for a jumping off point.]

> None support
> your suggestion that the language of his masters was his native
> tongue.  
> 
> The real point here is that the Irish, generally portrayed as 
> victims of the British, were sometimes victims, sometimes villians --
> like most everybody else.  

I don't deny it for a minute. I had a problem with the way you took the
currently existing region known as England and its current (troubled)
relations
with Ireland, and projected it back into a period of history where an
entirely different socio-political scene existed.

All the best

Tiarnan




From keyser-soze at hushmail.com  Mon Sep  4 23:20:00 2000
From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:20:00 -0800 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: <200009050523.WAA25826@mail5.hushmail.com>

At 07:42 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Tim May wrote:
At 4:38 PM -0400 9/4/00, Steven Furlong wrote:
Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>There are good reasons for the governments of the world (even Italy's,
 for our Italian friend who is insulted that we don't write enough about 
Italy) not to want to test the limits of the law: adhocracies like ambiguity.

>What about the right to remain silent? How does the Fifth Amendment impinge 
on this issue?

>A criminal defendant has the right to remain silent. He cannot be compelled 
to tell where evidence is located. He cannot be compelled to testify against 
himself. 

Although this list is mainly focused on the social implications of crypto 
and privacy.  It has also been a frequent forum for libertarian ideals: 
like smaller government.  There can be no greater lever to reduce the size 
of government than "...to cut off its oxygen," that is revenue.  

One of the better examples of the intersection of the Fifth Amendment and 
taxes involves W4 and 1040 U.S. federal tax forms.  For many years legislators 
have publicly maintained that we have a nation of voluntary tax compliance. 
 (Yet woe onto those who decide not to volunteer.)  Widely accepted federal 
court rulings consider statements on these tax forms as testimony (not evidence) 
in a court of law.  Since under our Constitution one cannot be compelled 
to testify against himself it seems reasonable that one cannot be compelled 
to submit to endorsing either form.  Only one case I know of (Conklin vs. 
U.S.) has been adjudicated on this issue.  Conklin won but the case.  The 
federal court ruled that submission of tax forms was voluntary, but the 
ruling was suppressed by a legal procedure which allow courts to selectively 
deny its citing in subsequent cases.  Adhocracies like ambiguity

Napster has tapped into a broad reservoir of resentment and resistance to 
paying too much for music.  I believe all U.S. libertarians on the list 
should be considering how a high profile test case of the constitutionality 
of the U.S. federal tax system might tap into a similar disdain for taxation 
and achieve substantially more constraint of government encroachment on 
civil liberties than our valiant crypto coding efforts.

ks

From wrober20 at bellsouth.net  Mon Sep  4 22:58:25 2000
From: wrober20 at bellsouth.net (Sonny)
Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 22:58:25 -0700
Subject: CDR: 128-bit netscaoe v4 for bellsouth.net
Message-ID: <39B48B81.8D99E1F6@bellsouth.net>

hello I would like to know if Netscape communictor version 4.* is
available for bellsouth.net with 128-bit encryption. Pleas Email me




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Mon Sep  4 15:17:30 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:17:30 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: <200009042217.XAA02261@localhost.localdomain>



> There are ancient inscriptions in Wales  
> that no one has been able to read in modern times.  Deciphering 
> an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is 
> written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that 
> transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never 
> been done.

However, one cannot discount the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics
the Rosetta Stone. I imagine it would be extremely difficult to decipher a
language that very structurally different from what is known. It is interesting
to speculate about artificial grammars. Most human and computer languages (with interesting
exceptions, such as the Hopi Indians' concept of time -- others can describe computer exceptions) 
follow the verb, noun, preposition-based method of signification.
I don't know whether any work has been done on constructing a seriously
structurally different artificial grammar. Jorges Luis Borges has an interesting
riff on the idea. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the details.

> "Poor Man's Crypto", possibly even better than digital crypto, 
> may consist in creating an artificial language together, and 
> then using it whenever you don't want to be eavesdropped on. 

As in thieves' cant. Or Irish. Speaking Irish was such a crime that schoolchildren
wore a 'tally-stick' around their necks. Each Irish word meant a notch on the stick.
A certain number of notches meant punishment, probably not gentle. Those who imposed this
system were Irish, not English.

In France, the Africans have an argot called verlins (an anagram of l'invers - the inverse)
where syllables within words are transposed, or words are spoken backwards. Not
very popular with the Corps Republican Securite.

All the best

Tiarnan




From emailingswork at postd.com  Mon Sep  4 20:48:08 2000
From: emailingswork at postd.com (emailingswork at postd.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:48:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: ADV - 10 MILLION  ADDRESSES!
Message-ID: 

 10 MILLION
 EMAIL ADDRESSES
 FOR ONLY $99 

       
 You want to make some money? 

 we can put you in touch with over 10 million people at virtually no cost.

 Can you make one cent from each of theses names?

If you can you have a profit of over $250,000.00 


      That's right, we have 10 Million  Fresh  email 

addresses that we will sell for only $99. These are all 

fresh addresses  with no duplications. They are 

all sorted and ready to be mailed.  That is the best 

deal anywhere today!  Imagine selling a product for 

only $5 and getting only a 1/10% response.   That's  

$1,350,000 in your pocket !!! 
 
 Don't believe it? People are making that kind of 

money right now by doing the same thing, that is 

why you get so much email from people selling you 

their product....it works!  we will even include,

a  FREE demo copy of the worlds leading  BULK MAILING

SOFTARE!

These 10 Million email addresses and software are     

yours to keep, so you can use them over and 

over and they come on 1 CD.  

This offer is not for everyone.

If you can not see  just how excellent the

 risk / reward ratio in this offer is then there is 

nothing we can do for you. 

To make money you must stop dreaming 

and TAKE ACTION.


****************************************

10 MILLION email addresses on CD

These name are all in text files

ready to mail!!! (includes bulk mailing sotware)

$99.00


*************************************************************
VISA/MC ONLY

STEP 1:  Print out the below ORDER FORM
STEP 2:  Type or Print your order information into the form
STEP 3:  FAX Your order to us.

FAX TO: 415-704-3071 (Order with confidence.  This is a secure fax area.
Only our qualified sales team will have access to your order 
information)


                                     ORDER FORM(Print clearly with DARK pen)
************************************************************************************************
Name:                   ________________________________  

Address:                ________________________________ * *BILLING ADDRESS ONLY

City, State, ZIP:       ________________________________  

Country:                ______________   (International Orders)  

Phone Number:           ______________   (In case we can't make out your order) 


METHOD OF PAYMENT- CREDIT CARD ONLY
[   ]Visa   [   ]MasterCard

Credit Card #:  __________________________________

Exp Date: _______________

Signature: ____________________________ (Required)

E-Mail Address: ____________________________ *(PRINT CLEARLY!!)

************************************************************************************************

        WE WILL BILL 99.00  to your account plus the following shipping costs

        SHIPPING  COST OF 4.85 FIRST CLASS MAIL
        INTERNATIOMAL ORDERS ADD 25.00 U.S. DOLLARS

 
        
 
ALL INFORMATION NECESSARY FOR YOU TO SUCCESSFULLY MAIL, QUICKLY, PROPERLY, LEGALLY PROVIDED WITH ORDER


Copyright 2000
All rights reserved





From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Sep  4 20:55:16 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:55:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <20000904221308.A2113@localhost.localdomain>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904205210.008b4cc0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:18 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Tiarnan O Corrain wrote:
>Perhaps my analogy of New York and Californain
>English was misleading

The difference there is more in what and how they 
conceptualize, rather than being simply linguistic. 

:-) :-P









  








From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Sep  4 20:55:16 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:55:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.16.20000903160647.28ff092e@www.rccr.cremona.it>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904205313.008b6c70@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:34 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>I'm with him, actually, about list content.  I had hoped to find 
>tech discussions going on.  

There are tech discussions on this list regularly, mixed with
the sociopolitical rants and spam.  You are not paying attention.









  








From honig at sprynet.com  Mon Sep  4 20:55:16 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 23:55:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000904205014.008b2380@pop.sprynet.com>

At 04:24 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>  Deciphering 
>an unknown langauge, not related to known languages, when it is 
>written in an unknown script is a feat of linguistics that 
>transcends mere cryptanalysis and has, so far, rarely or never 
>been done.  

Don't the linguists typically rely on a major crib (e.g., the Rosetta stone)? 











  








From alan at clueserver.org  Mon Sep  4 22:17:54 2000
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 01:17:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000904205313.008b6c70@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, David Honig wrote:

> At 05:34 PM 9/4/00 -0400, Ray Dillinger wrote:
> >
> >I'm with him, actually, about list content.  I had hoped to find 
> >tech discussions going on.  
> 
> There are tech discussions on this list regularly, mixed with
> the sociopolitical rants and spam.  You are not paying attention.

Actually the spam is an experiment is stegonography.  (But only some of
them.)  How to tell the difference is left as an exercise for the reader.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep  5 01:58:37 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 01:58:37 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
In-Reply-To: <39B380C4.CA5BF2FA@ricardo.de>
References: 
  <39B380C4.CA5BF2FA@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 

>petro wrote:
>>          Of course, a *simple* substitution of one word (or even
>>  spaces) would make this *much* harder.
>>
>>          "Friends, Romulans, fellow countrymen, lend me your beers..."
>
>not likely. crack has been guessing simple substitutions for years.

	Crack has been guessing "simple" substitutions at the character level.

	It gets a bit unwieldy and time consuming when running brute 
force attack against a 50 or 60 character string.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   *******************************************
Today good taste is often erroneously rejected as old-fashioned
because ordinary man, seeking approval of his so-called personality,
prefers to follow the dictates of his own peculiar style rather than
submit to any objective criterion of taste.--Jan Tschichold




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Mon Sep  4 23:51:08 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 02:51:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Alan Olsen wrote:

> Actually the spam is an experiment is stegonography.  (But only some of
> them.)  How to tell the difference is left as an exercise for the reader.

ah, and let me guess -- we can tell which of us have extra computing power
in our basement by seeing who can tell the difference and who can't?






From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Mon Sep  4 23:03:29 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: 5 Sep 2000 06:03:29 -0000
Subject: CDR: C&W blocks Internet phone calls in the Caymans
Message-ID: 

http://www.totaltele.com/view.asp?ArticleID=30234&pub=tt&categoryid=626

Internet & E-commerce

C&W blocks Internet phone calls in the Caymans
By Rick Catlin, Reuters 24 August 2000 

Officials of communications giant Cable & Wireless , which has a monopoly
on the Cayman Islands, have begun blocking Internet subscribers on the
islands from using the U.S.-based Net2Phone long distance phone service
that charges a fraction of what C&W charges Cayman customers.

The move came after C&W sent an e-mail to its Internet subscribers
on the islands, a major financial centre, earlier this month advising
them they were breaking their contract with C&W by using the Internet
for phone services.

The Net2Phone system uses the Internet to make long distance calls,
by-passing the traditional telephone service and charging far less.

C&W spokesperson Tina Trumbach confirmed the blockage on Wednesday, adding
that any other similar system that can be detected will be blocked.

She noted that company officials last year indicated publicly they
would not be blocking Net2Phone at that time as long as usage
did not seriously affect C&W revenues.

Since then, the technology to block systems such as Net2Phone has become
available as C&W's long distance revenues have been declining and Net2Phone
usage has increased.

UK-based Cable & Wireless is one of the world's largest telecommunications
companies and in the Cayman Islands alone, the company generates more than
$50 million in net profits annually, according to government figures,
from a country of just 45,000 people.

C&W has an exclusive 25-year contract with the Cayman government signed in
1991 to be the sole provider of telecommunications service to the Cayman
Islands.
In return, C&W pays 6 percent of its gross revenues to the government
annually,
which two years ago amounted to about US$10 million.

Recently, the company has indicated a willingness to accept competition in a
"structured" and "regulated" environment.

Trumbach said the company will soon offer further price reductions on
Internet service to various business customers. But the company said
it could not sustain a trend of lowering prices if there were a
proliferation of "prohibited usage."

The Cayman Islands, a British colony of three islands in the
western Caribbean, have a population of about 45,000 and more than
40,000 registered companies, including nearly 600 banks and trusts
and nearly 500 captive insurance companies.

It has been estimated that about 2,000 C&W customers in the Cayman Islands
used Net2Phone or similar service. C&W could not confirm that number.

Businessman William Peguero, whose company was selling "YapJacks"
- the device that enables Internet telephone communication -
vowed to fight C&W in the courts. He said he has already obtained
more than 1,000 signatures on a petition
calling for an end to the C&W monopoly in the Cayman Islands and open
competition to lower rates.

"Jurisdictions including Jamaica, Bermuda, Hong Kong and others around
the world have ended the Cable & Wireless monopoly on telecommunications
through the introduction of competition," he said. "In each case,
the services offered are better and the pricing for those services
lowered for the citizens and businesses in those countries."

He also claimed C&W has no legal right to block access to any Internet
service.

The current C&W long-distance rate for a business hours call to
North America is $1.50 per minute. Peguero said he was able to
make calls on Net2Phone for about 13 cents per minute.

Net2Phone attorney Steve Dorry in New York said his company had no comment on
the matter "at this time."

He added, however, that the company would be addressing the legal issue
"in the proper forum" in the very near future.

Dorry said he expected similar action by C&W in other jurisdictions where it
operates as a monopoly, particularly in the English-speaking Caribbean.

Several years ago, when some Cayman Islands businesses bought in to a
call back system in the United States to provide long distance service
cheaper than normal C&W rates, the company was able to effectively
identify and block call back usage from specific telephones.







From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep  5 05:27:52 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 07:27:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <39B4CE30.88CD789F@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Tom Vogt wrote:

> I'd like to have a few agenda items as "starters". you know, to avoid
> people sitting around, wondering "ok, I'm here - what now?". I'm fairly
> sure that once things get started, any attempt at planning will go out
> the window anyways.

European CDR nodes?

Update on HavenCo?


    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com  Tue Sep  5 06:58:29 2000
From: TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com (TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 09:58:29 EDT
Subject: CDR: de minimus non curat lex
Message-ID: 

    what does this mean????




From jburnes at savvis.net  Tue Sep  5 08:39:10 2000
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:39:10 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <00090510391002.23332@reality.eng.savvis.net>

On Mon, 04 Sep 2000, Jim Dixon wrote:
>>an invasion and the way the Saxons were treated; but the
> > Normans were just copying the Romans, and the Romans were just copying
> > the Greeks.
>
> It's easy to look at history in this way, seeing some people as
> villians and other as victims.  But do remember that St Patrick
> wasn't Irish at all.  He was an English boy, stolen by Irish pirates
> and sold into slavery in Ireland.  And for centuries English kings
> used Irish mercenaries to subdue their unruly subjects.
>

Actually, St. Patrick is mostly a mythical creature constructed
from the actual Roman ruling family Patricias.  The whole St. Patrick
chasing out the snakes is clearly a metaphor for the Roman church
killing off the pagans.

As is typical amonst the Roman church, the peasants, once suitably
under control are made to believe the destruction of the old way of
life was actually a blessing.  The Romans pushed this on them until
the old ways faded into the memory hole.




From jwlampe at netsecuregroup.net  Tue Sep  5 09:10:27 2000
From: jwlampe at netsecuregroup.net (f00dikator)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:10:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: RE: de minimus non curat lex
Message-ID: 

The small shall not drive a lexus :-)




From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu  Tue Sep  5 09:47:26 2000
From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:47:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

The law does not care for trifles.
MacN

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com wrote:

>     what does this mean????
> 
> 




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep  5 09:23:59 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:23:59 -0400
Subject: CDR: export reg timewarp? (Re: RC4 source as a literate program)
Message-ID: <39B51ECC.7A663085@lsil.com>

> The US export regulations no longer prevent export of crypto.  PGP
> exported binary copies of PGP from US websites, as now do many other
> companies.  Crypto source is exported also from numerous web sites.
>
> I don't follow why all the discussion talking as if ITAR and EARs were
> still in effect in unmodified form.
> 
> Adam
> 
There is still the prior restraint of having to notify BXA when code is
posted.
 
And there is still the influence of the securty types over export
licensing.

Also there is the recent DeCSS nonsense. Linking is not speech?

So what is interesting to me is not so much crypto export regs as it is
when is something speech and when is it not. I'm pretty much at peace
with my own opinion that I can write and publish in electronic form
anything that I can on paper in any language I please and that nobody
has any business trying to control me. The different treatment of
electronic vs. paper publishing is still open even if the crypto regs
have been tweaked

Mike





From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 03:38:51 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:38:51 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
References: 
Message-ID: <39B4CD3B.614A2682@ricardo.de>

Ralf-Philipp Weinmann wrote:
> hmm.. we're still talking about hamburg here, right ? 

yes

> you're right in so
> far as since this is the first european cypherpunk meeting one can have
> absolutely no idea how many people will be showing. depending on how well
> announced the meeting is i'd guess > 50 people however (maybe the bay area
> people can give us a rough count on how much people are showing to an averge
> meeting there and we can try to extrapolate something from that - cultural
> difference nonwithstanding :)... there were physical meetings in non-west-coast
> places as well, dunno remember where however. the numbers for those should be
> a little bit more of a benchmark/pointer to us).

any hints welcome. I know I'd be shot on the spot if I make a suggestion
such as "here's a webpage, click the button if you want to come." :))

but at least a rough estimate would help.



> A cafe sounds like a good idea, we might try meeting at a mall, on a public
> place or somewhere else however.

that's why I'm looking for a place with outside tables. you can just
wander by and see the group, the crypto books, whatever.




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 03:42:56 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:42:56 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
References: <39B3935B.90047BE5@ricardo.de> 
Message-ID: <39B4CE30.88CD789F@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
> First, good luck on your meeting.

thanks.


> * we in the Bay Area have had numerous informal gatherings at coffee
> shops, outdoor seating areas, other public areas (a la '2600"). And
> this is with an attendance sometimes reaching 50.
> 
> (Which, in my crotchety opinion, is too high. Attendance over about
> 20 tends to make the event a lecture rather than a gathering.)

yepp, this is a meeting, not a congress. :)


> * agendas are seldom needed. We got by in the first, and most
> interesting, few years of the Cypherpunks will little or no agenda in
> advance. We sat around a table or on the floor and we talked.
> Sometimes someone got up and went to a blackboard, if available, and
> drew pictures.

I'd like to have a few agenda items as "starters". you know, to avoid
people sitting around, wondering "ok, I'm here - what now?". I'm fairly
sure that once things get started, any attempt at planning will go out
the window anyways.



> * too much of a formal agenda tends to encourage "guest speakers,"
> which, in my view, is _not_ a good idea. Sometimes a notable guest
> speaker is a good idea, but usually the result is that someone not
> part of the culture talks about what his or her company or
> organization is doing...things which are readily discoverable from
> Web sources.

agree on that.



> * and don't be afraid to discuss politics and political implications
> of technologies. 

we won't - if nothing else, I'll be heavily discussing the DVD/CSS
problem.


> In conclusion, I encourage you to just "hang loose." ("lose sein")

"locker sein" :)

we will. (I hope)




From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi  Tue Sep  5 03:03:10 2000
From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:03:10 +0300 (EET DST)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009042217.XAA02261@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2000 ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:

>However, one cannot discount the decipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics
>the Rosetta Stone.

Or the Linear A ordeal.

>I imagine it would be extremely difficult to decipher a language that very
>structurally different from what is known.

Indeed. With Linear A, the connection to ancient Greek was what solved the
puzzle. OTOH, hieroglyphs and similar ideographic writing systems do have
some figurative characteristics which can help in their interpretation. Not
so with syllabary/alphabet based ones, in which you would prefer at least a
cursory understanding of the spoken form before going for an interpretation.

>It is interesting to speculate about artificial grammars. Most human and
>computer languages (with interesting exceptions, such as the Hopi Indians'
>concept of time -- others can describe computer exceptions) 

Such exceptions always arouse my curiosity. Any online sources?

>I don't know whether any work has been done on constructing a seriously
>structurally different artificial grammar. Jorges Luis Borges has an
>interesting riff on the idea. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the
>details.

Aye. Hit me.

Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university




From jeffersgary at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  5 11:28:15 2000
From: jeffersgary at hotmail.com (Gary Jeffers)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 13:28:15 CDT
Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program
Message-ID: 

Fellow Cypherpunks,

                     THE LAWYER GAMBIT

   I remember reading in old anti-IRS literature about a technique for
avoiding prosecutions. A client would tell a lawyer that he wanted to
do something and would ask if it were legal to do. The lawyer would
then give his opinion as to wheather it was legal or not. If the lawyer
said that it was legal and gave his opinion in writing, then the
client could proceed without out worry. The lawyer's opinion would stop
any criminal prosecution.

   I wonder if this would work with publishing crypt code. I think it
might put the lawyer at risk. If we had a lawyer who really thought
that publishing crypt code on the Internet was legal and wasn't afraid
of sticking his neck out then his published statement on the Internet
to this might open the floodgates of crypt code Internet posting for
Americans.

   Donald has stated that the law in this area is quite vague. I would
think even if the law prohibited it, then the law would be unconstitu-
tional and therefore null and void.

   Any thoughts on this?

Yours Truly,
Gary Jeffers

BEAT STATE!!!!

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From mikefreeman at hushmail.com  Tue Sep  5 10:59:18 2000
From: mikefreeman at hushmail.com (mikefreeman at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:59:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: another example of our second amendment rights at work
Message-ID: <200009051759.NAA17299@ufe036.disk.sterling.va.infi.net>

Please read this story on thestate.com,

http://www.thestate.com/local/docs/moteldeath01.htm





From insider at atomfilms.com  Tue Sep  5 14:36:35 2000
From: insider at atomfilms.com (Atom Insider)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:36:35 -0700
Subject: CDR: AtomFilms Insider Membership
Message-ID: <030143536210590ATOMWEB02@atomfilms.com>

Congratulations on becoming an Atom Insider! As an Insider, not only can
you thoroughly customize your entertainment experience, but you can
collect points every time you review or recommend a short! Every point
will increase your chances of winning great prizes.

If you ever forget your password, just visit this URL and we'll help you
remember:
http://www.atomfilms.com/default.asp?furl=insider/insider_password.asp.

While you're at the site enjoying the hundreds of exclusive titles
available to Insiders, you'll want to check out our latest viewing
feature: Plymptonia. It's available at:
http://www.atomfilms.com/default.asp?spot_id=33.

If you have received this message in error, or if you would like to cancel
your Atom Insider membership, please send an e-mail with the subject line
"CANCEL INSIDER" to insider at atomfilms.com.

Thanks again for becoming an Insider. Now enjoy the shows!

AtomFilms
http://www.atomfilms.com




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Tue Sep  5 06:41:12 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:41:12 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
	(message from Sampo A Syreeni on Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:03:10 +0300 (EET
	DST))
References: 
Message-ID: <200009051341.OAA00779@localhost.localdomain>

> OTOH, hieroglyphs and similar ideographic writing systems do have
> some figurative characteristics which can help in their interpretation. Not
> so with syllabary/alphabet based ones, in which you would prefer at least a
> cursory understanding of the spoken form before going for an interpretation.

Chinese is interesting in this connexion. As far as I understand it, the
'language' is made up of different spoken forms, all of which are covered
by the same writing system, are mutually incomprehensible when spoken. I don't
know if there are other examples of this in human languages. Computer languages
do provide examples - treading on thin ice here in such company: one could
instance a piece of C code that is compiled for several different systems. In
this case, the machine code for each system would bear little relationship
to that for another system. I'll not go on in this vein, for fear of a pratfall.

>>It is interesting to speculate about artificial grammars. Most human and
>>computer languages (with interesting exceptions, such as the Hopi Indians'
>>concept of time -- others can describe computer exceptions) 

>Such exceptions always arouse my curiosity. Any online sources?

Don't know about online sources. As far as I remember, the Hopi used two
tenses, one to describe the present, the other to describe dream time,
taking in the past (memory regarded as a sort of dream, which Fraud would
have loved had he known about it), and the future, as well as any
loose ends involving magical or fabricated events, legendary time, etc.

>>I don't know whether any work has been done on constructing a seriously
>>structurally different artificial grammar. Jorges Luis Borges has an
>>interesting riff on the idea. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the
>>details.

"Tln, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius -- A reference to an imaginary country leads the author deeper into a 
different linguistical reality."
	  is how the story's described on http://www.themodernworld.com/borges

As far as I remember, the author discovers a reference to the country in an old and eccentric
printing of an encyclopedia. The language described in the story has no verbs or nouns, using
a compound form of both. To stray into another dangerous analogy with computer languages, one
*might* say that object-orientated languages, by encapsulating data and methods, do something
similar, but I'm not standing by this, because it's not my area of expertise. 


Noam Chomsky argues that the deep structures of languages are fundamentally similar: that the
difference between Chinese and Old Irish is a matter of vocabulary, rather than means of
signification.

All the best

Tiarnan




From news at bluecom.com  Tue Sep  5 05:55:08 2000
From: news at bluecom.com (news at bluecom.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:55:08 +0200
Subject: CDR: IT NEWS WEEKLY
Message-ID: <200009051408.HAA07847@toad.com>

 
IT.NEWS WEEKLY

September 5, 2000, NO. 14
 
Welcome again to IT.NEWS - BlueCom's weekly newsletter for all players in the international IT Channel - vendors, distributors, resellers, dealers and brokers. Read about the latest trends in the IT market, products, prices, partnerships, major companies and much more. 
 
-------------------------------------------------------
 
THIS ISSUE:

1. Intel Recall Its 1.13 GHz Pentium III Chip
2. Dream Team Sponsors Linux Lab
3. First Storage Product From IBM/Compaq Alliance
4. Sony to Spend USD 940 Million on Chip Plant
5. Hyundai Joins Anti-Rambus Legal Fight
6. Handheld Makers Foresee Christmas Shortage
 
-------------------------------------------------------
 
**************
SPONSOR MESSAGE
This week's TOP-7 CRAZY prices at BlueCom Danmark A/S 
Intel Etherexpress Pro 10/100 Mbit WOL   ONLY USD 35.50
Click here for the next 6 crazy prices http://www.bluecom.com/top7
************** 

1. Intel Recalls Its 1.13 GHz Pentium III Chip
Last week Intel Corp. recalled its 1.13 GHz Pentium III processor on the very day that archrival Advanced Micro Devices Inc. announced that more than 10 PC makers are to produce models using its 1.1 GHz Athlon processor. Intel stated that it was recalling its processor because a lab test had highlighted malfunctions when using certain kernels of the Linux operating systems. The problem apparently results from the higher heat produced by the faster processor and some portion of the Linux code. Analysts say that AMD now has a clear lead in processors, and that Intel launched the 1.13 GHz Pentium III before it was completely ready in an attempt to remain competitive. Intel has announced that it will take several months to correct the problem, which gives AMD more time to ramp up its 1.1 GHz shipments. In the coming months AMD will introduce Athlon chips with even higher speed grains, aiming for 1.5 GHz in the first quarter.
Source: CNet News and Electronic Buyers News.

2. Dream Team Sponsors Linux Lab
Computing heavyweights IBM, NEC, Intel, Dell Computer and Hewlett Packard are joining with Linux companies to coax the operating system into high-end, multiprocessor machines, the companies announced last week. The computing powerhouses are joining forces to create a laboratory where open-source programmers can improve the performance of Linux and associated software on these expensive servers. The new Open-Source Development Laboratories, due to receive multi-million dollar funding annually from the companies participating, will provide a way for independent programmers to push Linux into this high-prestige domain.
Source: CNet News
 
3. First Storage Product From IBM/Compaq Alliance 
The first open storage product of the IBM and Compaq alliance has been announced as the Modular Storage Server. The alliance was made public on 6th July. Since then, IBM has undertaken full training of its storage sales force and storage networking architects, plus many of its business partners. Customers will now be able to deploy open storage networking solutions using both IBM and Compaq products. IBM has also announced the availability of 36 gigabyte 10,000 RPM disk drives for its "Shark" Enterprise Storage Server, which can result in a performance improvement of up to 30 percent. It also introduced the IBM FastT200 Storage Server, the industry leading entry level server for the NT marketplace, featuring two one gigabit per second Fibre Channel connections. The Modular Storage Server will be available on 29th September and the FastT200 will be available on the 12th September. 
Source: IBM

4. Sony to Spend USD 940 Million on Chip Plant
Sony stated last week that it will spend more than US$940 million over the next five years on a new plant to produce microchips used in mobile phones, digital cameras and other devices, as the company attempts to increase production of such goods. Sony will begin construction in November in the Kumamoto district on Japan's southern island of Kyushu. The factory is scheduled to begin production in October 2001.
Source: Sony

5. Hyundai Joins Anti-Rambus Legal Fight
The company says its lawsuit is a pre-emptive strike against Rambus's pressure to license its synchronous technology. At stake is the validity of the patents protecting the technology for memory ICs, microprocessors, and core-logic chipsets - and therefore who gets to control the industry's future. Similarly, Hyundai has joined Micron Technology in a separate effort to invalidate patents held by memory intellectual property designer Rambus.
Source: TechWeb
 
6. Handheld Makers Foresee Christmas Shortage
Palm, Handspring, Sony and other makers of handheld computers will have trouble filling orders for rhe Christmas period because of the ongoing parts shortage, according to executives and analysts. "We're in backlog on literally every single product in the line," Palm chief competitive officer Michael Mace said. "Today the thing holding us back is our ability to procure parts. That is by far the biggest barrier to further growth by Palm".  
Supplies are short, in part because of a scarcity of components such as liquid crystal displays, colour screens and flash-memory chips. Palm and the other handheld computer makers use many of the same components as cell phone makers and game console makers. More people are buying such devices and can sometimes afford to upgrade to newer products each year as prices drop, further straining supplies, said Rob Enderle, an analyst with technology market researcher Giga Information Group. Because electronic organizers have become more popular than expected, the shortages could persist through 2001 and threaten the widespread acceptance of the devices. 
Source: CNet News



**************
SPONSOR MESSAGE
This week's TOP-7 CRAZY prices at BlueCom Danmark A/S 
Intel Etherexpress Pro 10/100 Mbit WOL   ONLY USD 35.50
Click here for the next 6 crazy prices http://www.bluecom.com/top7
************** 
 
Please click here to unsubscribe to this newsletter http://www.bluecom.com/unsubscribe


 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 13879 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From bf at mindspring.com  Tue Sep  5 12:07:57 2000
From: bf at mindspring.com (Blank Frank)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:07:57 -0400
Subject: CDR: Spread misinfo, got to jail? 
Message-ID: <39B54485.BD38F50C@mindspring.com>

Friday September 1 6:42 PM ET
          Bloomberg, Internet Wire Sued Over
          Emulex

          By Nicole Volpe

          NEW YORK (Reuters) - A Florida investor has filed a lawsuit
          against Internet Wire and Bloomberg LP over a false press
          release that led to a nosedive in the shares of Emulex Corp.
          (NasdaqNM:EMLX - news) last week in one of the biggest
          Web-based financial hoaxes ever, attorneys said on Friday.

          The suit, filed on behalf of retiree Ron Hart and which seeks
          class action status, accuses the two organizations of
allegedly
          ``recklessly disseminating materially false and misleading
          information,'' Hartford, Conn.-based law firm Schatz & Nobel
          said in a statement. Hart lost as much as $15,000 as a result
of
          the hoax, said Schatz partner Andrew Schatz.

          Both Internet Wire, a company announcement distribution
          service, and Bloomberg, a financial information and news
          company, declined to comment on the suit, which was filed in
          the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York.

          ``We have not been served so we do not have a comment until
          we are,'' said Internet Wire spokeswoman Amy Orebaugh on
          Friday.

          Bloomberg spokeswoman Chris Taylor said that as of early
          Friday morning it had not been served a lawsuit and said the
          company does not comment on ongoing litigation.

          A false press release issued via Internet Wire and picked up
by
          Bloomberg, Dow Jones and some other news organizations
          caused the data networking equipment maker's stock to fall
          more than 50 percent last Friday. Reuters did not carry the
          hoax. The release said that the company was under
investigation
          by the Securities and Exchange Commission, was about to
          restate its earnings and that its chief executive had quit.

          On Thursday, a 23-year-old college student was arrested and
          charged with the hoax and pocketing almost $250,000 from
          subsequent trading of Emulex stock.

          The ``plaintiff seeks to recover damages on behalf of all
          investors who sold Emulex stock or call options or purchased
          put options on August 25, 2000 before the resumption of
trading
          at 1:30 p.m. EST,'' Schatz & Nobel said in a statement.

          Schatz said other investors had contacted him and he expected
          that some of them would join in the suit.

          Hart had about 500 Emulex shares and sold them at about $80
          each in the middle of the share price plunge, which reversed
as
          soon as the hoax was revealed, said Andrew Schatz. The
          company's shares, which fell to $48-1/16 on August 25 before
          trading was suspended, have since recovered to close at
107-1/2
          on Friday.





From jdd at vbc.net  Tue Sep  5 07:16:13 2000
From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:16:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009051341.OAA00779@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:

> > OTOH, hieroglyphs and similar ideographic writing systems do have
> > some figurative characteristics which can help in their interpretation. Not
> > so with syllabary/alphabet based ones, in which you would prefer at least a
> > cursory understanding of the spoken form before going for an interpretation.
> 
> Chinese is interesting in this connexion. As far as I understand it, the
> 'language' is made up of different spoken forms, all of which are covered
> by the same writing system, are mutually incomprehensible when spoken. I don't
> know if there are other examples of this in human languages. Computer languages

There are a number of languages normally called Chinese that use the
same characters.  They are more or less mutually comprehensible when
written but not when spoken.  (Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien, Fukien, 
etc)  It takes some self-discipline to write Chinese that can be
understood by speakers of other dialects.

Vietnamese used to fall into this category before the French took over;
they now use a phonetic alphabet, the usual alphabet used by 
European languages with additional marks that make it phonetic.

Japanese, Korean, and possibly others use a mixture of the Chinese
characters and phonetic symbols.  In Japanese at least the phonetic
symbols form two syllabaries.  A syllabary is like an alphabet, but
instead of representing sounds a symbol represents a syllable.  So 
the Japanese syllabaries begin "kah, kee, koo, kay, koh, ..." 

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Tue Sep  5 12:23:26 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:23:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Gary Jeffers wrote:

> then give his opinion as to wheather it was legal or not. If the lawyer
> said that it was legal and gave his opinion in writing, then the
> client could proceed without out worry. The lawyer's opinion would stop
> any criminal prosecution.

Does this really work? I can't imagine this working for murder (but on the
other hand, that's  a bad example since it's unreasonable to imagine
murder legal in the USA). Even for something like tax laws or other
complicated regulations this sounds dubious. 

 
>    I wonder if this would work with publishing crypt code. I think it
> might put the lawyer at risk. If we had a lawyer who really thought

Well, a lawyer who advised a client that something was legal when in fact
it wasn't might have a problem. 

> that publishing crypt code on the Internet was legal and wasn't afraid
> of sticking his neck out then his published statement on the Internet
> to this might open the floodgates of crypt code Internet posting for
> Americans.

Such a statement would help, but more because it would be from an expert
on the law than because of any legal shield. I am not a lawyer, and so I'd
like to have one's opinion before doing anything that could land me in
jail. That kind of thing.

> 
>    Donald has stated that the law in this area is quite vague. I would
> think even if the law prohibited it, then the law would be unconstitu-
> tional and therefore null and void.
> 

Prohibiting what - publishing cryptography code?
In any case, even if the law is unconstitutional, you may have to go
through several layers of court cases to prove it. c.f. Bernstein. :(

-David




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep  5 15:25:06 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:25:06 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: 

ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:

> It's very easy, from a post-religious
> perspective, to be nostalgic about paganism, since we understand almost
> nothing of it. Neo-pagan movements are generally comic, not in their
> internal ideas, but in the notion that they are somehow recapturing 
> an old religion, a religion without scriptures or documents or a 
> continuous tradition.


   Humph, said the camel... indeed!

   Nonsense, says religionmonger. You obviously haven't researched the
pagan world to much depth. Druids, for instance, have a strong, clear
line going way back, as do Wiccans. Because of persecution by the 
God-damned church, they spent a long time underground, but there's never
been a time when they weren't active and working. *You* understand 
nothing of it, and never will unless you could somehow convince some
group to initiate you, which is unlikely. 
  Scriptures and documents, dear one, play no part in earth and goddess 
centered religions. Shamans, for instance, are called personally by their
spirits, taught by the same, etc., and it's all very much a personalized 
experience. Experiential religions have no need of scripture -- that's the
bailiwick of the later, false, paternalistic, religions of the dominator
cultures.  




From news at bluecom.com  Tue Sep  5 06:29:49 2000
From: news at bluecom.com (news at bluecom.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:29:49 +0200
Subject: CDR: IT NEWS WEEKLY
Message-ID: <200009051743.KAA12650@toad.com>

 
IT.NEWS WEEKLY

September 5, 2000, NO. 14
 
Welcome again to IT.NEWS - BlueCom's weekly newsletter for all players in the international IT Channel - vendors, distributors, resellers, dealers and brokers. Read about the latest trends in the IT market, products, prices, partnerships, major companies and much more. 
 
-------------------------------------------------------
 
THIS ISSUE:

1. Intel Recall Its 1.13 GHz Pentium III Chip
2. Dream Team Sponsors Linux Lab
3. First Storage Product From IBM/Compaq Alliance
4. Sony to Spend USD 940 Million on Chip Plant
5. Hyundai Joins Anti-Rambus Legal Fight
6. Handheld Makers Foresee Christmas Shortage
 
-------------------------------------------------------
 
**************
SPONSOR MESSAGE
This week's TOP-7 CRAZY prices at BlueCom Danmark A/S 
Intel Etherexpress Pro 10/100 Mbit WOL   ONLY USD 35.50
Click here for the next 6 crazy prices http://www.bluecom.com/top7
************** 

1. Intel Recalls Its 1.13 GHz Pentium III Chip
Last week Intel Corp. recalled its 1.13 GHz Pentium III processor on the very day that archrival Advanced Micro Devices Inc. announced that more than 10 PC makers are to produce models using its 1.1 GHz Athlon processor. Intel stated that it was recalling its processor because a lab test had highlighted malfunctions when using certain kernels of the Linux operating systems. The problem apparently results from the higher heat produced by the faster processor and some portion of the Linux code. Analysts say that AMD now has a clear lead in processors, and that Intel launched the 1.13 GHz Pentium III before it was completely ready in an attempt to remain competitive. Intel has announced that it will take several months to correct the problem, which gives AMD more time to ramp up its 1.1 GHz shipments. In the coming months AMD will introduce Athlon chips with even higher speed grains, aiming for 1.5 GHz in the first quarter.
Source: CNet News and Electronic Buyers News.

2. Dream Team Sponsors Linux Lab
Computing heavyweights IBM, NEC, Intel, Dell Computer and Hewlett Packard are joining with Linux companies to coax the operating system into high-end, multiprocessor machines, the companies announced last week. The computing powerhouses are joining forces to create a laboratory where open-source programmers can improve the performance of Linux and associated software on these expensive servers. The new Open-Source Development Laboratories, due to receive multi-million dollar funding annually from the companies participating, will provide a way for independent programmers to push Linux into this high-prestige domain.
Source: CNet News
 
3. First Storage Product From IBM/Compaq Alliance 
The first open storage product of the IBM and Compaq alliance has been announced as the Modular Storage Server. The alliance was made public on 6th July. Since then, IBM has undertaken full training of its storage sales force and storage networking architects, plus many of its business partners. Customers will now be able to deploy open storage networking solutions using both IBM and Compaq products. IBM has also announced the availability of 36 gigabyte 10,000 RPM disk drives for its "Shark" Enterprise Storage Server, which can result in a performance improvement of up to 30 percent. It also introduced the IBM FastT200 Storage Server, the industry leading entry level server for the NT marketplace, featuring two one gigabit per second Fibre Channel connections. The Modular Storage Server will be available on 29th September and the FastT200 will be available on the 12th September. 
Source: IBM

4. Sony to Spend USD 940 Million on Chip Plant
Sony stated last week that it will spend more than US$940 million over the next five years on a new plant to produce microchips used in mobile phones, digital cameras and other devices, as the company attempts to increase production of such goods. Sony will begin construction in November in the Kumamoto district on Japan's southern island of Kyushu. The factory is scheduled to begin production in October 2001.
Source: Sony

5. Hyundai Joins Anti-Rambus Legal Fight
The company says its lawsuit is a pre-emptive strike against Rambus's pressure to license its synchronous technology. At stake is the validity of the patents protecting the technology for memory ICs, microprocessors, and core-logic chipsets - and therefore who gets to control the industry's future. Similarly, Hyundai has joined Micron Technology in a separate effort to invalidate patents held by memory intellectual property designer Rambus.
Source: TechWeb
 
6. Handheld Makers Foresee Christmas Shortage
Palm, Handspring, Sony and other makers of handheld computers will have trouble filling orders for rhe Christmas period because of the ongoing parts shortage, according to executives and analysts. "We're in backlog on literally every single product in the line," Palm chief competitive officer Michael Mace said. "Today the thing holding us back is our ability to procure parts. That is by far the biggest barrier to further growth by Palm".  
Supplies are short, in part because of a scarcity of components such as liquid crystal displays, colour screens and flash-memory chips. Palm and the other handheld computer makers use many of the same components as cell phone makers and game console makers. More people are buying such devices and can sometimes afford to upgrade to newer products each year as prices drop, further straining supplies, said Rob Enderle, an analyst with technology market researcher Giga Information Group. Because electronic organizers have become more popular than expected, the shortages could persist through 2001 and threaten the widespread acceptance of the devices. 
Source: CNet News



**************
SPONSOR MESSAGE
This week's TOP-7 CRAZY prices at BlueCom Danmark A/S 
Intel Etherexpress Pro 10/100 Mbit WOL   ONLY USD 35.50
Click here for the next 6 crazy prices http://www.bluecom.com/top7
************** 
 
Please click here to unsubscribe to this newsletter http://www.bluecom.com/unsubscribe


 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 13879 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 06:35:00 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:35:00 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
References: 
	  <39B380C4.CA5BF2FA@ricardo.de> 
Message-ID: <39B4F684.E12BF62@ricardo.de>

petro wrote:
> >>          Of course, a *simple* substitution of one word (or even
> >>  spaces) would make this *much* harder.
> >>
> >>          "Friends, Romulans, fellow countrymen, lend me your beers..."
> >
> >not likely. crack has been guessing simple substitutions for years.
> 
>         Crack has been guessing "simple" substitutions at the character level.

your point? it's trivial to change the rules from "try replacing o with
0 (zero)" to using a phonetics dictionary on a whole word. pattern
matching is likewise so trivial that I've used it in online games for
nothing more important than fixing typos of players.


>         It gets a bit unwieldy and time consuming when running brute
> force attack against a 50 or 60 character string.

yes, but you *still* reduce the key space by several orders of
magnitude, or rather: reorder it in your favor (I assume that when you
failed with all substitions, you'll go "real" brute force, skipping what
you already tried).




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 06:40:27 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:40:27 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
References: 
Message-ID: <39B4F7CB.A661B872@ricardo.de>

Jim Choate wrote:
> > I'd like to have a few agenda items as "starters". you know, to avoid
> > people sitting around, wondering "ok, I'm here - what now?". I'm fairly
> > sure that once things get started, any attempt at planning will go out
> > the window anyways.
> 
> European CDR nodes?
> 
> Update on HavenCo?

if anyone can say anything on those topics - very welcome.




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 06:42:12 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 15:42:12 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
References: <20000905123535.500A46C4C5@suburbia.net>
Message-ID: <39B4F834.BC04F8EB@ricardo.de>

Julian Assange wrote:
> 
> > that's why I'm looking for a place with outside tables. you can just
> > wander by and see the group, the crypto books, whatever.
> 
> The leather. The babes. The machisimo.

ok, who's bringing the babes? :))




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep  5 13:49:56 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:49:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Black Rock, Nev
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000905131515.008c47b0@pop.sprynet.com>



Black Rock, Nev (Routers)
Air Force spokeswoman Jane Denning apologized for
the accidental detonation of a fuel-air munition
above the "Burning Man" campgrounds, blaming the
error on outdated National Imagery and Mapping Agency
maps that showed the area as part of an active nearby bombing
range.  Bureau of Land Management rangers on the scene
said there were no survivors.

Department of Justice spokesman Louis Slaveh said that
although there will be no compensation from the government,
officials are taking steps to see that this doesn't happen
again.   A DEA official on the scene commented "We should have
thought of this earlier."









  








From declan at well.com  Tue Sep  5 16:50:42 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:50:42 -0700
Subject: CDR: U.S. Justice Department, Leading Technology Association Launch
  Web Site...
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000905165037.0210f5a0@mail.well.com>



>Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:27:04 -0400 (EDT)
>From: mds at mds.prwire.com
>To: mds at mds02.prwire.com
>Reply-To: mds at mds02.prwire.com, news at prwire.com
>X-JID: 602169
>Subject: U.S. Justice Department, Leading Technology Association Launch 
>Web Site...
>
>
>
>    U.S. Justice Department, Leading Technology Association Launch Web Site
>                   To Teach Children Responsible Computer Use
>
>               Offers Parents, Educators Back-To-School Tools To
>                         Teach Kids About Online Ethics
>
>     ARLINGTON, Va., Sept. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- As America's children go back to
>school, The Cybercitizen Partnership, a joint effort by the U.S. Department of
>Justice and the Information Technology Association of America Foundation
>(ITAA), the nation's leading technology association, today launched a new Web
>site for parents and educators designed to teach kids the right ways to use
>the Internet.
>     The new Web site -- http://www.cybercitizenship.org -- represents a major
>national effort to provide teachers, parents and their children with a new
>learning tool -- responsible computer use.  The Web site is initially focused
>on providing support for parents, and will expand to assist teachers and
>appeal to kids.
>     "Young people are growing up in a society where the Internet is 
> central to
>everything from commerce to recreation," said U.S. Attorney General Janet
>Reno.  "Unfortunately, criminal activity exists online just as it does on the
>streets.  As children learn basic rules about right and wrong in the off-line
>world, they must also learn about acceptable behavior on the Internet."
>     "This is a first-of-its kind government/private sector initiative to help
>kids realize that the rules of the road in the off-line world also apply in
>the online world," said ITAA President Harris N. Miller.  "As the Internet
>becomes more important to our daily lives, this initiative will help kids make
>informed decisions about online behavior."
>     The Cybercitizen Partnership was formed last year to focus national
>attention on cyber social behavior and the importance of teaching young
>computer users to recognize that, in addition to protecting themselves from
>the more unsavory and potentially dangerous behavior found in parts of the
>Internet, they must understand that, when online, they are responsible for
>their own actions and that these actions have consequences both for themselves
>and others.  The same standards of ethics expected in the off-line world must
>be applied to the online world.  The Web site will provide parents with
>several tools including:
>
>     *  Teachable Moments:  Tips to help parents use real-life events, news
>stories and examples to help them talk to their kids about the
>responsibilities they must accept when using the Internet;
>
>     *  Links:  Relevant sites to connect parents to other programs and
>organizations offering helpful information;
>
>     *  Logo:  A kid-friendly character, created specifically for The
>Cybercitizen Partnership, that reminds young computer users to "Surf Like A
>Hero, Not A Zero"
>
>     *  Current Events: Useful news coverage on cyber ethics and cyber crimes
>and a calendar of events for educational programs;
>
>     *  White Paper:  A situation analysis and call-to-action addressing the
>need to educate children about responsible cyber social behavior;
>
>     *  Ask The Experts:  A list of experts on cyber ethics, who will be
>available to respond to email inquiries from visitors to the site.
>
>     "Now that students have rapidly increasing access to the Internet at
>school and at home, the key is to excite them while teaching them the right
>way to use the new medium," said Van B. Honeycutt, president and CEO of
>Computer Sciences Corporation and chairman of The Cybercitizen Partnership.
>"Our children represent the future technology workforce, which is why it's so
>important for industry to play a major role in helping kids learn responsible
>cyber behavior."
>     The Web site will evolve and eventually include:  a directory of
>educational initiatives across the country dedicated to integrating messages
>about responsible cyber social behavior; new links to valuable Web sites; and
>interactive tools for parents and teachers on cyber ethics.
>     Announced in March of 1999 by the U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno, The
>Cybercitizen Partnership serves as an umbrella organization to identify cyber
>social behavior initiatives and to help create a movement to address legal and
>ethical issues online.  Current supporters of the program include: Computer
>Sciences Corporation (www.csc.com ); Oracle (www.oracle.com );
>www.onehealthbank.com ; MERANT (www.merant.com ); Mirus Information Systems
>(www.mirusinfo.com ); Stanford Consulting Group, Cyveillance, Inc., iDefense
>(www.idefense.com ), the Recording Industry Association of America
>(www.RIAA.com ) and BITS, the Technology Group for the Financial Services
>sector (www.bankersround.org ).
>
>     About ITAA
>     The Information Technology Association of America (ITAA) provides global
>public policy, business networking, and national leadership to promote the
>continued rapid growth of the IT industry.  ITAA consists of 400 direct and
>26,000 affiliate corporate members throughout the U.S., and a global network
>of 41 countries' IT associations.  The Association plays the leading role in
>issues of IT industry concern including information security, taxes and
>finance policy, digital intellectual property protection, telecommunications
>competition, workforce and education, immigration, online privacy and consumer
>protection, government IT procurement, human resources and e-commerce policy.
>ITAA members range from the smallest IT start-ups to industry leaders in the
>Internet, software, IT services, ASP, digital content, systems integration,
>telecommunications, and enterprise solution fields.  For more information
>visit www.itaa.org .
>
>SOURCE  Information Technology Association of America
>     -0-                             09/05/2000
>     /CONTACT:  Bob Cohen of Information Technology Association of America,
>703-284-5301, bcohen at itaa.org; Elissa Lumley of Fleishman-Hillard,
>202-828-8845, lumleye at fleishman.com, for Information Technology Association of
>America; or Chris Watney of U.S. Justice Department, 202-514-2007,
>chris.j.watney at usdoj.gov/
>     /Web sites:  http://www.cybercitizenship.org
>                  http://www.itaa.org/




From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep  5 14:52:58 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:52:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com wrote:

>     what does this mean????
> 

You need a Latin dictionary...

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From ravage at ssz.com  Tue Sep  5 15:05:59 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:05:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: RC4 source as a literate program
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Gary Jeffers wrote:

> said that it was legal and gave his opinion in writing, then the
> client could proceed without out worry. The lawyer's opinion would stop
> any criminal prosecution.

That's never been true, if only prosecutors were that gullible.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From sunder at sunder.net  Tue Sep  5 17:38:32 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 17:38:32 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
References: 
Message-ID: <39B59208.DB335A0F@sunder.net>

Sampo A Syreeni wrote:
> 
> >For myself, I often use as pass phrases memorized phrases from
> >literature. Which ones? Well, I read four languages, and I do the
> >number/letter and symbol/letter substitutions, so I feel secure even
> >revealing that clue.
> 
> Good for you. Most people never go to even that much trouble. But I still
> think that dictionary searches on, say, all consequtive subsequences of
> 6-200 characters in the top 100 most likely to have been read books of a

I tend to just string up lots of characters, so my passphrases look like this:

 ^#.;Odfi9 at 7f$}'~%42w0,m:Qe_|33+\  and so on.

How do you memorize this?  You break it up in chunks, memorize each chunk, then link them together.  And then you type it in a lot
of times the first few days you use it.  It's not that hard.  If you don't use it on a daily basis, the danger is in forgetting it.

Yep, most people would have a coronary before accepting the above as a passphrase.  Fuck'em.  They deserve the security they're
willing to provide themselves.

Passphrases from books are nice, but if they're all text, they're a hell of a lot easier to brute than the above.  Especially if you
have the texts in electronic form.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Sep  5 11:00:09 2000
From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer)
Date: 5 Sep 2000 18:00:09 -0000
Subject: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
Message-ID: <20000905180009.22147.qmail@nym.alias.net>

Ray Dillinger writes:
> In the interest of making  some news if you don't like the news 
> you're getting, I present -- the Country Mile Cipher.  Algorithm 
> details available (for now) on 
>
>         http://www.sonic.net/~bear/crypto/countrymile.html
>
> This is a stream cipher based on the Blum-Blum-Shub pseuodo-
> random number generator -- and on work done more recently by 
> Ronald Rivest, who "digitally sealed" a message that he expects 
> to take 30 years of continuous computing to unscramble. 

Your idea is to take BBS as a stream cipher, use a value based on a
secret short key as a starting point, and then cycle it potentially a
whole lot, millions or billions of cycles or more, before beginning to
cipher the message with it.

Using the idea of Rivest et all you can cycle BBS forward arbitrarily
far in a limited amount of work, if you know the modulus factors.  So
you can encrypt with little work, while making the decryptor do an
arbitrary amount of work even if he knows the key.

You've combined the idea of time lock crypto with an encryption function.

It's not clear these two ideas go all that well together, like the SNL
product that was both a floor wax and a dessert topping.  Usually you
either want to encrypt, in which case you want to make it easy to decrypt
for the guy who knows the key, or you want to time-lock, in which case
you want to control how hard it will be to find the key.  There don't
seem to be that many cases where you want to allow decryption but only
if you both know the key and are willing to put in a lot of time.

Even if you did want to do that, you could just use Rivest's time lock
to hide a key which then gets combined with your short key to produce
the actual key to the message.

Along these lines your own idea could be simplified; don't encipher the
whole message using BBS, just encipher a block-cipher key and use 3DES
or similar to encipher the message.

You might also want to take a look at the paper by Dan Boneh and
Moni Naor from Crypto 2000,
http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/abstracts/timedcommit.html.

They have a similar idea but came up with an application for it in fair
contract signing (where one party should not end up with the signature on
a contract unless the other party does too).  For their application they
need to be able to encrypt a message such that it can only be decrypted
with a specified large amount of work.  However they must be able to
reveal the encrypted message and prove that the decryption was accurate,
using a small amount of work.  This could be done in your scheme simply
by revealing the modulus factors (the "long key") but they want to reuse
the modulus so they use some fancy zero knowledge proofs.




From billp at nmol.com  Tue Sep  5 17:57:05 2000
From: billp at nmol.com (billp at nmol.com)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 18:57:05 -0600
Subject: CDR: jerry boutelle
Message-ID: <39B59661.6A4D5598@nmol.com>

http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/load2.htm

We are moving ahead.

Keep up-wind.




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep  5 10:03:23 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:03:23 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
References:  <200009051341.OAA00779@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <39B5275B.590ED4F3@ricardo.de>

ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:
> Chinese is interesting in this connexion. As far as I understand it, the
> 'language' is made up of different spoken forms, all of which are covered
> by the same writing system, are mutually incomprehensible when spoken. I don't
> know if there are other examples of this in human languages. 

there are similiar examples, mostly with ancient languages - if they
still exist (roman/italian or ancient/modern greek/hebrew) they are
often virtually identical in written form, but very different when
spoken.
of course, there's also the question of how much we really know about
the ancient pronounciation.

> >Such exceptions always arouse my curiosity. Any online sources?
> 
> Don't know about online sources. As far as I remember, the Hopi used two
> tenses, one to describe the present, the other to describe dream time,
> taking in the past (memory regarded as a sort of dream, which Fraud would
> have loved had he known about it), and the future, as well as any
> loose ends involving magical or fabricated events, legendary time, etc.

the most interesting point about the hopi grammar is, that it takes the
observer into the picture. AFAIK, there can be no confusion in hopi
about whether something happened to you, or you imagined it happening,
or you saw it happening to someone else, or someone else saw it
happening to a third person. in english these are all 
"he killed (me, for real)"
"he killed (me, in my dream)"
"he killed (someone else)"
"he killed (fred told me)"




From reeza at flex.com  Tue Sep  5 22:05:50 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:05:50 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000905190439.00cf1390@flex.com>

At 04:52 PM 05/09/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
 >
 >On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com wrote:
 >
 >>     what does this mean????
 >
 >You need a Latin dictionary...

Loosely translated, it means that cypherpunks are important people,
and you shouldn't bother us with such trifling things.




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Tue Sep  5 11:06:37 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:06:37 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
Message-ID: <200009051806.TAA01062@localhost.localdomain>

------- Start of forwarded message -------

>Actually, St. Patrick is mostly a mythical creature constructed
>from the actual Roman ruling family Patricias.

Humph, said the camel...

If so, did this 'actual Roman ruling family' author the works attributed
(with scholarly acuuracy) to Patrick?

More likely Patrick came from a romano-british family, probably an
aristrocratic one. Many british chieftain families would have
arrogated to themselves the name 'patrician', which was no more
than a descriptive term for the gentes maiores in Rome, the Valerii,
Claudii, Fabii and so on. A bit like the second names 'King' and
'Knight'.

> The whole St. Patrick
>chasing out the snakes is clearly a metaphor for the Roman church
>killing off the pagans.

>As is typical amonst the Roman church, the peasants, once suitably
>under control are made to believe the destruction of the old way of
>life was actually a blessing.  The Romans pushed this on them until
>the old ways faded into the memory hole.

First off, the Church as it existed then was not the 'Roman church'. This
was before the schisms and the rise of Islam, when the Christian Church was 
administered from distributed nodes (the Patriarchates of Byzantium, Antioch, Jerusalem,
Alexandria and Rome).

Secondly, your assertion about the meaning of Patrick and the snakes is dubious. I
agree it is evidently a myth, but would posit a more likely source
in paganism. Many Irish gods and godesses survived well into the
Christian era (some even to this day) as 'saints' of the Church. While
Patrick was a historical figure, the scribes may well have thought
his career too dull for one of such fame, and decided to conflate
several already existing myths, and add them to the story. A common
practice in Hollywood these days -- a recent example is Braveheart,
where the military innovations of Robert the Bruce (a Norman, just like
the French-speaking Edward I, which is not mentioned) were ascribed
to the medieval feminist, democratic new man William Wallace. Hagiographies
are propaganda aimed at the time in which they are written.

[Off topic completely here, but I read that for the last years of his
life, Stalin's only reading was his own official biography... falling
in love with the myth of himself, or taken in by his own deceit?]

Thirdly, Patrick's conversion of the Irish was not a conquest. Nor was
the conversion of much of Europe. It's very easy, from a post-religious
perspective, to be nostalgic about paganism, since we understand almost
nothing of it. Neo-pagan movements are generally comic, not in their
internal ideas, but in the notion that they are somehow recapturing 
an old religion, a religion without scriptures or documents or a 
continuous tradition.

All the best

Tiarnan




From bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au  Tue Sep  5 16:28:01 2000
From: bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au (BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:28:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
In-Reply-To:  from "Sampo A Syreeni" at Sep 04, 2000 03:07:05 AM
Message-ID: <200009052327.e85NRpN12078@octarine.itsc.adfa.edu.au>

> 
> On Sat, 2 Sep 2000, BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES wrote:
> 
> >A human can easily remember 26 random letters from a 32 character 
> >alphabet with a little mnemonic method (eg map each character to a 
> >word so that it makes up some sort of dumb story). 5*26==130 which
> >is more bits than computers can currently exhaust over.
> 
> True, especially if you salt with a suitably long random number and combine
> the two with a sufficiently nasty serial computation.
> 
> Most of this thread does not, despite the strong wordings, actually 
> concentrate on what average people *can* do but what they are likely to do
> when they do not have any real reason/incentive to guard their privacy.

Sure, probably 70% or more of real apss phrases are crackable, but that's
not strictly the fault of the software. It doesn't really matter either, 
if they &really& have no "reason/incentive to guard their privacy".

Tim





From bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au  Tue Sep  5 16:31:24 2000
From: bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au (BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:31:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Whipped Europeans
In-Reply-To: <968073477.39b3a1059f443@webmail.cotse.com> from "brflgnk@cotse.com" at Sep 04, 2000 09:20:53 AM
Message-ID: <200009052330.e85NUu012861@octarine.itsc.adfa.edu.au>

Well to do coke-heads had been "freebasing" the alkaloid (free base)
for years before crack was invented. Crack just made the same thing
available in small quantities to the (black) masses and a panic
ensued.

Tim

> 
> Said by Sampo Syreeni :
> 
> -- begin quote --
> >Crack cocaine is made using a relatively simple procedure which changes
> >that equilibrium to where almost all of it blows into the brain at
> >once. This is why crack cocaine is considered worse than the "regular"
> >powder.
> 
> 'Freebasing' wasn't it? Cook in high pH to release the free alcaloid form
> from the salt. What I do not remember is the precise reason for the high
> permeability - water solubility?
> -- end quote --
> 
> I don't think so.  The hydrochloride form (regular "powder") is water-soluble, 
> but the free alkaloid is fat-soluble.  That's why it's smoked instead of 
> snorted.  But the process not only converts the cocaine, it also loses any 
> dilution material ("cut").  So the final dose is, for all practical purposes, 
> pure cocaine that needs no additional conversion in the bloodstream.  It might 
> not be permeability that's responsible for the different effect.  Could be a 
> simple matter of delivering a higher quantity of ready-to-permeate material.
> 
> 





From success at prof.com  Tue Sep  5 19:40:11 2000
From: success at prof.com (success at prof.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 19:40:11
Subject: CDR: Read Only If Serious About A Six Figure Income...
Message-ID: <394.856526.714801@server>

Are you serious about earning a Multiple Six Figure Income,
but do not want to be involved in MLM or a Franchise?
If you have reached the point in your life where you are ready
for Financial Freedom and a Real Opportunity to Retire
in 2-4 years, calling the number below is your first step.
Please, do not call unless you are highly motivated, goal
oriented, and ready for REAL success.
This� is a serious business looking only for those that
want to make a MINIMUM of $10,000 per month and to
truly be in a position to help others at the same time.

**24 Hour Recorded Message:� 1-800-320-9895 Ext. 5436**

Your background, age and debt level are not important.
Just a strong desire for financial independence.

"If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we
would literally astound ourselves."� Thomas A. Edison

To be removed respond at� success008 at yahoo.com






 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From mikefreeman at hushmail.com  Tue Sep  5 12:24:38 2000
From: mikefreeman at hushmail.com (mikefreeman at hushmail.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:24:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: CDR: ZDNet UK News: Mathematics experts promise encryption boost
Message-ID: <200009051924.UAA05018@www2.zdnet.co.uk>

This ZDNET UK News story has been forwarded to you by mikefreeman at hushmail.com
who has added these comments:
Has anybody here looked at the algorithim? If so what are your thoughts? 

Mathematics experts promise encryption boost

Thu, 31 Aug 2000 15:02:03 GMT  Will Knight

With the government's snooping bill looming, experts devise ways of
making Net communications more secure

A technique that promises to make advanced encryption more secure has
been developed by mathematics experts at France's National Institute
for Research in Computer Science and Control (INRIA).

Robert Harley, a graduate student at INRIA and one of the researchers
behind the new technique, says the new method will make "elliptic
curve" cryptography less vulnerable to attack. Elliptic curve
cryptography is a mathematical method for generating keys that are
commonly used to secure email messages and Internet connections.
Elliptic curve cryptography is more difficult to solve than older
techniques but it takes time to calculate the curves in the first
place.

Harley has created an algorithm that makes it much easier to generate
individual elliptic curves, which can be used to generate unique user
keys for securing individual messages.

"Most people who use elliptic curve cryptography stick with one curve.
Within academic circles this is seen as slightly dangerous. It like
putting all your eggs in one basket," says Harley.

Harley's algorithm, which is based on theoretical work of Japanese
mathematician Takakazu Satoh of Saitama University, makes it possible
to calculate a curve with far less computing power than is
conventionally required. The time taken for a common calculation is
reduced from days to a matter of hours.

The new technique is likely to have an impact on commercial
applications cryptography. Harley says that US software company
Encrsoft is already hoping to incorporate his technique into its
encrypted instant messaging application Top Secret Messenger. Entrust
has also expressed an interested in the technique. The approach may
also be used to make SSL (Secure Socket Layer) encryption, which is
used to send transactions and communications over HTTP Internet
connections more secure. Researchers at Sun and Standford University
are developing SSL solutions based on Harley's research.

They can see you... Read about how and why in Surveillance
(http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/specials/1999/09/surveillance/), a ZDNet
News Special

What do you think? Tell the Mailroom (mailroomuk at zd.com). And read
(http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/mailroom.html) what others have said.


If you found this ZDNN news report valuable, why not sign up for the 
free daily ZDNN News Alert - and we'll email you our top five headlines 
every day.
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/misc/newsletters/news.html

ZDNet News: The UK's best source for computing news - updated throughout the day.
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/



Please report any abuse of this service to ukwebmaster at zd.com




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep  5 17:26:34 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:26:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: <200009052355.UAA27827@poseidon.inf.ufsc.br>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000905172423.008b37c0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 08:00 PM 9/5/00 -0400, Augusto Jun Devegili wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I was just wondering... In DES, there's an Initial 
>Permutation (IP) on the plaintext, then 16 rounds, and 
>then the inverse permutation (IP^-1) of the result to 
>produce the ciphertext.
>
>How effective are these permutations? Do they really 
>add diffusion to the algorithm, considering that they 
>don't depend on the key?
>
>Someone told me that they are necessary to provide 
>reversibility to DES. Is this correct?

You are correct.  

They are needed to perform DES as spec'd in the FIPS, so just
for interoperability you've gotta keep them.

When you do 3DES you can combine them.

These permutations cost only wires in hardware, but take cycles on a CPU.
This is one of the reasons that DES is inefficient in software.














  








From devegili at inf.ufsc.br  Tue Sep  5 16:55:50 2000
From: devegili at inf.ufsc.br (Augusto Jun Devegili)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:55:50 -0300
Subject: CDR: Permutations in DES
Message-ID: <200009052355.UAA27827@poseidon.inf.ufsc.br>

Hi all,

I was just wondering... In DES, there's an Initial 
Permutation (IP) on the plaintext, then 16 rounds, and 
then the inverse permutation (IP^-1) of the result to 
produce the ciphertext.

How effective are these permutations? Do they really 
add diffusion to the algorithm, considering that they 
don't depend on the key?

Someone told me that they are necessary to provide 
reversibility to DES. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance,
Best Regards,

Devegili




From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Tue Sep  5 18:05:27 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:05:27 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: TIGGGGERMOM@aol.com's message of "Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:03:37 -0400"
References: 
Message-ID: <84snre49g5.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com writes:

>     what does this mean????

The law cares not for the small [things].





From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Tue Sep  5 18:13:24 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:13:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: 128-bit netscaoe v4 for bellsouth.net
In-Reply-To: Sonny's message of "Tue, 5 Sep 2000 07:25:36 -0400"
References: <39B48B81.8D99E1F6@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <84og22492h.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Sonny  writes:

> hello I would like to know if Netscape communictor version 4.* is
> available for bellsouth.net with 128-bit encryption. Pleas Email me

Is there a message hidden in these messages of blithe idiocy, possibly
hidden in the typos? Maybe revealable by some odd algorithm run
against a grammatically-correct version of the message?





From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Sep  5 21:34:07 2000
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:34:07 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009041817.TAA01448@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000905212328.0267a770@shell11.ba.best.com>

     --
 > > When Patrick didn't do what he was told, I'm sure that his masters
 > > made no effort to learn his language.  They just shouted at him
 > > louder in Gaelic.

At 07:17 PM 9/4/2000 +0100, ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:
 > Patrick would have spoken Gaelic or Latin as his first language.The
 > Irish would have been no more difficult to understand than a
 > Californian to a Noo Yawker. The upper echelons of Irish society may
 > even have spoken Latin.

  The upper echelons of Irish society did not speak Latin, and the 
inhabitants of England at that time did not speak Gaelic.  Ireland had 
never been conquered by the Romans.  Latin had long since ceased to be the 
language of civilization, and had become merely the language of 
conquerors.  Irish literature at the time was vigorous and thriving, while 
secular Roman literature at the time was non-existent.  The nearest thing 
to literate and readable works produced in Latin at that time were 
evangelical texts created Christian proselytizers.   The greatest 
literature of that era was Augustine's "confessions", which gives you an 
indication of how low the Roman civilization had sunk.   At that time 
people learnt latin only because their masters shouted at them in latin, 
not because there was anything interesting to read or hear.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      jLpeTtmZcxp+K3zt6NovjkMT3+D13j0NLuDiBYZp
      4NDsFXixvkrTO78zJc30/1dE3TfFaF7VPUGFyfBdz




From jamesd at echeque.com  Tue Sep  5 21:49:07 2000
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:49:07 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009051806.TAA01062@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000905214630.023c6f00@shell11.ba.best.com>

     --
At 07:06 PM 9/5/2000 +0100, ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:
 > More likely Patrick came from a romano-british family, probably an
 > aristrocratic one. Many british chieftain families would have
 > arrogated to themselves the name 'patrician',

If he came from an aristocratic family, he would have been ransomed.   He 
was not.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      M2lRDrJo619sFvJFOQgoW6cEQbs3k944ID47xCCJ
      4FxnTtpHrAs1b2TRzUaTo6aOQiBq1NEwnvEGKg324




From honig at sprynet.com  Tue Sep  5 20:23:40 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:23:40 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: <200009052355.AAA00710@localhost.localdomain>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000905201001.008c4660@pop.sprynet.com>

At 08:34 PM 9/5/00 -0400, ocorrain at esatclear.ie wrote:
> Coming from a
>country where Druids at least existed in historical times, I can
>tell you that the evidence suggests that Druids existed as lawmakers
>and counsellors. Their true heirs are in the lawcourts and in politics.
>Disappointing, no?

So, um, how do Druids feel about peer to peer file sharing :-)









  








From proff at suburbia.net  Tue Sep  5 05:35:35 2000
From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:35:35 +1100 (EST)
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <39B4CD3B.614A2682@ricardo.de> "from Tom Vogt at Sep 5, 2000 12:38:51
 pm"
Message-ID: <20000905123535.500A46C4C5@suburbia.net>

> that's why I'm looking for a place with outside tables. you can just
> wander by and see the group, the crypto books, whatever.

The leather. The babes. The machisimo.




From ocorrain at esatclear.ie  Tue Sep  5 16:55:49 2000
From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (ocorrain at esatclear.ie)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:55:49 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: Treatment of subjugated people (and bagpipes)
In-Reply-To: 
	(juicy@melontraffickers.com)
References: 
Message-ID: <200009052355.AAA00710@localhost.localdomain>


>Nonsense, says religionmonger. You obviously haven't researched the
>pagan world to much depth. 

I don't know if I'd call what you refer to below research. Fantasy would
be closer to the mark.

>Druids, for instance, have a strong, clear
>line going way back, as do Wiccans. Because of persecution by the 
>God-damned church, they spent a long time underground, but there's never
>been a time when they weren't active and working.

I was under the impression we were talking about the era around 500AD,
before the Inquisition, and not long after the Christians themselves
were persecuted. I'm no skypilot, but the implied timelines you associate
with Wiccans and Druids (of the modern sort) are, to say the least,
somewhat confused.

>You understand 
>nothing of it, and never will unless you could somehow convince some
>group to initiate you, which is unlikely. 

It's even more unlikely I would seek such an initiation. 

>Experiential religions have no need of scripture -- that's the
>bailiwick of the later, false, paternalistic, religions of the dominator
>cultures.

Into which scumble of badness you would no doubt throw Hinduism, Buddhism,
Taoism and the philosophies thereof? Whereas your religion is based on
handing down knowledge (without records or a literate culture) from
mother to daughter. A mirror image of the apostolic succession, amusingly.
I'll quote from Joyce's Ulysses:
     The cords of all link back, strandentwining cable of all flesh. That is
     why mystic monks. Will you be as gods? Gaze into your omphalos. Hello.
     Kinch here. Put me on to Edenville. Aleph, alpha: nought, nought, one. (p46)

Does that sound like what you're on about? Guess what it's about.

To turn centuries of folk knowledge persecuted by those who did not
understand (not just priests, you know, peasants burnt their own out
of fear as well) into a religion with a continuous link to pre-Christian,
even pre-historical times, is an interesting hypothesis. It would take
some proving, rather than a random spew about 'false' and 'paternalistic'
, and especially 'later' religions. Coming from a
country where Druids at least existed in historical times, I can
tell you that the evidence suggests that Druids existed as lawmakers
and counsellors. Their true heirs are in the lawcourts and in politics.
Disappointing, no?

All the best

Tiarnan  




From ryan at havenco.com  Tue Sep  5 18:01:40 2000
From: ryan at havenco.com (Ryan Lackey)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 02:01:40 +0100
Subject: CDR: Re: europe physical meeting
In-Reply-To: <39B4CE30.88CD789F@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <20000906020140.A7533@vex.havenco.com>

> update on HavenCo

I'll probably be showing up to the meeting, provided it is held someplace
interesting (Amsterdam, London, Berlin, Copenhagen are interesting; Osnabrueck
is NOT.)  I've started attending London 2600 whenever I'm in London,
and might go to a CCC event if I pick up some more German between now
and then.

I can bring some cool toys (legal in Europe) for people to play with, too.

If you get any UK attendees, they'll probably want to talk about RIP,
which is a mind-crushingly boring topic.  I think an update on
publius/freenet/mojo/etc. would be quite interesting, however.

-- 
Ryan Lackey			ryan at havenco.com
Chief Technical Officer 	+44 (0)7970 633 277 (mobile)
HavenCo, Ltd. 			http://www.havenco.com/
1024D/4096g B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B  DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F




From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Tue Sep  5 22:32:50 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: 6 Sep 2000 05:32:50 -0000
Subject: CDR: NSA Outsourcing administrative operations
Message-ID: 

NSA IS ON A GROUNDBREAKING MISSION - [The Washington Post, F15.]  
Sometime next spring, according to the plan, as many as 1,000 employees
of the National Security Agency in Fort Meade will begin exchanging their
government dog tags for new IDs from AT&T, Computer Sciences or other
technology contractors chosen to handle the NSA's conventional
telecommunications and computer needs.  The transfer would open a major
new chapter in federal outsourcing: the turnover of full responsibility
for an entire agency's "noncritical" telephone, Web and desktop
computing operations to outside contractors, says Ray Bjorklund,
vice president of Federal Sources.  The fact that the client is the
super-secretive NSA, whose headquarters was once dubbed 
"the Taj Mahal of eavesdropping," makes the move even more groundbreaking
(although the transfer won't include NSA's code-breaking and other
intelligence work).  Indeed, the project's code name is Groundbreaker. 
It's expected to be worth at least $2 billion for the winning contracting
team over the next decade, industry officials say. 
The figure could grow to $5 billion if the mission is expanded. 
NSA has chosen three teams to compete for the Groundbreaker contract,
most of them among the region's biggest IT contractors. 
Leading the teams are AT&T's federal division, Computer Sciences and OAO. 
AT&T and CSC are among the nation's half-dozen largest federal IT
contractors, with more than $1 billion in annual contracts. 
OAO had $137 million in federal IT work last year, according to
Washington Technology magazine.







From Michael_Heyman at NAI.com  Wed Sep  6 06:40:09 2000
From: Michael_Heyman at NAI.com (Heyman, Michael)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 06:40:09 -0700
Subject: linux-ipsec: RSA released
Message-ID: 

In case you don't already know:

>From 

BEDFORD, Mass., September 6, 2000 -- RSA� Security Inc. (NASDAQ: RSAS) today
announced it has released the RSA public key encryption algorithm into the
public domain, allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their own
implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has waived its
rights to enforce the patent for any development activities that include the
RSA algorithm occurring after September 6, 2000.

-Michael Heyman

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From pcw at flyzone.com  Wed Sep  6 05:09:02 2000
From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 08:09:02 -0400
Subject: CDR: US stole Codebreaking Limelight from Britain in WWII?
Message-ID: 


According to the Daily Telegraph, the US took most of the credit for 
breaking Japanese codes during WWII. The paper says that Bletchley 
Park deserves more credit according to recently declassified papers. 
Only traditional British reticence kept them from claiming credit 
before.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003413427358635&rtmo=aq54aK9J&atmo=rrrrrrvs&pg=/et/00/9/6/ncode06.html

Of course, the British also stood on the shoulders of the Polish.....

-Peter

-- 
--------------------------
Tune to http://www.wayner.org/books/ffa/  for information on my book 
on Free Software.




From marcel at aiurea.com  Wed Sep  6 06:06:18 2000
From: marcel at aiurea.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:06:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
References:  <39B59208.DB335A0F@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <00ca01c01803$9f2dc7c0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>



From whgiii at openpgp.net  Wed Sep  6 07:18:24 2000
From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:18:24 -0500
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two weeks e arly. [cpunk]
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <200009061418.KAA09028@domains.invweb.net>

In , on 09/06/00 
   at 08:10 AM, "Trei, Peter"  said:

>RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III      http://www.openpgp.net  
Geiger Consulting    

Data Security & Cryptology Consulting
Programming, Networking, Analysis
 
PGP for OS/2:               http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
E-Secure:                   http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep  6 09:36:32 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:36:32 -0700
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two
  weeks early. [cpunk]
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>

When will we see the first RSAREF-compatible public-domain code?

At 10:10 AM 9/6/00 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
>Wednesday September 6, 8:03 am Eastern Time
>
>Press Release
>
>SOURCE: RSA Security Inc.
>
>RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain
>
>'c = m(e) mod n' Made Available Two Weeks Early
>
>BEDFORD, Mass., Sept. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- RSA® Security
>Inc. (Nasdaq: RSAS - news) today announced it has released the
>RSA public key encryption algorithm into the public domain,
>allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their own
>implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has
>waived its rights to enforce the patent for any development
>activities that include the RSA algorithm occurring after
>September 6, 2000.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From codewhacker at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  6 07:47:50 2000
From: codewhacker at yahoo.com (Roy Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:47:50 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: linux-ipsec: RSA released
Message-ID: <000c01c01811$6fcadb90$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>

>In case you don't already know:
>
>>From 
>
>BEDFORD, Mass., September 6, 2000 -- RSA® Security Inc. (NASDAQ: RSAS)
today
>announced it has released the RSA public key encryption algorithm into the
>public domain, allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their
own
>implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has waived
its
>rights to enforce the patent for any development activities that include
the
>RSA algorithm occurring after September 6, 2000.

Looks to me like they just didn't want to let the parties go on as
scheduled.



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Sep  6 07:10:49 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:10:49 -0400 
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two weeks e
	arly. [cpunk]
Message-ID: 

Wednesday September 6, 8:03 am Eastern Time

Press Release

SOURCE: RSA Security Inc.

RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain

'c = m(e) mod n' Made Available Two Weeks Early

BEDFORD, Mass., Sept. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- RSA® Security
Inc. (Nasdaq: RSAS - news) today announced it has released the
RSA public key encryption algorithm into the public domain,
allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their own
implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has
waived its rights to enforce the patent for any development
activities that include the RSA algorithm occurring after
September 6, 2000.

Represented by the equation "c = m(e) mod n," the RSA algorithm
is widely considered the standard for encryption and the core
technology that secures the vast majority of the e-business
conducted on the Internet. The U.S. patent for the RSA algorithm
(#4,405,829, "Cryptographic Communications System And Method")
was issued to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) on
September 20, 1983, licensed exclusively to RSA Security and
expires on September 20, 2000.

"So much misinformation has been spread recently regarding the
expiration of the RSA algorithm patent that we wanted to create
an opportunity to state the facts," said Art Coviello, chief
executive officer of RSA Security. "RSA Security's
commercialization of the RSA patent helped create an entire
industry of highly secure, interoperable products that are the
foundation of the worldwide online economy.  Releasing the RSA
algorithm into the public domain now is a symbolic next step in
the evolution of this market, as we believe it will cement the
position of RSA encryption as the standard in all categories of
wired and wireless applications and devices. RSA Security intends
to continue to offer the world's premier implementation of the
RSA algorithm and all other relevant encryption technologies in
our RSA BSAFE® software solutions and we remain confident in
our leadership in the encryption market."

For nearly two decades, more than 800 companies spanning a range
of global industries have turned to RSA Security as a trusted,
strategic partner that can provide the proven, time-tested
encryption implementations and resources designed to speed time
to market. These companies, including nearly 200 so far in 2000,
rely on RSA BSAFE® security software for its encryption
implementation and value-added services for a broad range of B2B,
B2C and wireless applications.

During the past 17 years, RSA Security has incorporated the
concepts represented by the RSA algorithm into its RSA BSAFE
cryptographic software. The company has made continuous
enhancements to the way the algorithm has been implemented,
including a number of performance improvements and optimizations,
not reflected in the original patent, for a wide range of
software applications, operating systems and chip designs. RSA
Security also is an industry leader in developing standards on
the robust application of encryption technologies for solving
real-world problems. These core standards, known as the Public
Key Cryptography Standards (PKCS), form the underpinnings of
today's most widely used communication methods.

In recent years, encryption technology has taken on an entirely
new level of importance in the world of business and consumer
technology, and RSA Security continues to be a leader in the
industry. Once the province of a small group of technologists and
mathematicians, new developments have raised the profile of
encryption among a broad range of audiences. Moving forward,
electronic signature legislation, export regulation and the
pending selection of the Advanced Encryption Standard (AES) all
will contribute significantly to encryption playing a key role in
the further expansion of e-commerce initiatives for B2B, B2C and
extended enterprise applications.

For more information regarding the RSA algorithm and a free RSA
algorithm t-shirt, visit www.rsasecurity.com/total-solution.

About RSA Security Inc.

RSA Security Inc., The Most Trusted Name in e-Security(TM), helps
organizations build secure, trusted foundations for e-business
through its RSA SecurID® two-factor authentication, RSA BSAFE
encryption and RSA Keon® public key management systems. With
more than a half billion RSA BSAFE-enabled applications in use
worldwide, more than seven million RSA SecurID users and almost
20 years of industry experience, RSA Security has the proven
leadership and innovative technology to address the changing
security needs of e-business and bring trust to the new, online
economy. RSA Security can be reached at www.rsasecurity.com.

NOTE: This press release contains forward-looking statements
relating to the role of the RSA algorithm encryption and the
expansion of e-commerce. Such statements involve a number of
risks and uncertainties. Among the important factors that could
cause actual results to differ materially from those indicated by
such forward-looking statements are delays in product
development, technical difficulties, software bugs and errors,
competitive pressures, changes in customer and market
requirements and standards, market acceptance of new
technologies, technological changes in the computer industry,
general economic conditions and the risk factors detailed from
time to time in RSA Security's periodic reports and registration
statements filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission,
including without limitation RSA Security's Annual Report on Form
10-K filed on March 15, 2000 and its Quarterly Report on Form
10-Q filed on August 14, 2000.

RSA, BSAFE, Keon and SecurID are registered trademarks, and The
Most Trusted Name in e-Security is a trademark of RSA Security
Inc.  All other products and services mentioned are trademarks of
their respective companies.

SOURCE: RSA Security Inc.




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep  6 07:18:54 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:18:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: linux-ipsec: RSA released
Message-ID: 


--- begin forwarded text



From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep  6 07:27:53 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:27:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>



	
Germany Reportedly Plans 'Internet
     Tax' 

     BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany is planning to slap new
     levies on computer, telecommunications and Internet
     products to ensure that authors are properly rewarded for
     the use of their work, a newspaper said Wednesday.

     The Berliner Zeitung said proposals had been drafted requiring
manufacturers of
     goods from computers to printers, modems, compact disc ``burners'' and
other
     devices to pay royalty fees that would then be forwarded to music and
film
     companies.

     Officials at the Justice Ministry, which it said was behind the move,
were not
     immediately available for comment.

     The new tax would particularly intend to ensure that the authors of
cultural products
     available on the Internet were properly rewarded.

     Similar levies already exist in Germany on devices whose main function
is that of
     copying, such as scanners, photocopiers and fax machines. Depending on
the power
     of the machine involved, the taxes range from $30-$275.

     The levies are paid by manufacturers to firms that specialize in
collecting royalties
     on so-called ``intellectual property.'' They then pass these fees on
to clients such as
     authors, music, film or software companies.

     Hardware companies say extending the taxes to computers and telecom
equipment
     like modems could make them up to 30 percent more expensive.

     Because the taxes are only payable when the products are bought in
Germany, there
     have been warnings they could lead hi-tech firms to flee the country
and sell through
     mail order and other channels from abroad. 








  








From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep  6 01:28:46 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 10:28:46 +0200
Subject: CDR: Europe Physical Meeting - Update
Message-ID: <39B6003E.2351492E@ricardo.de>


I'd like to move the date to one day later, Saturday the 30th September
2000. several people have remarked that a friday is difficult for those
who can't take a day off at work or whatever.

also, I think we will have enough interesting people with topics, so
there will surely be no boredom.

I'm continuing my search for a place to meet now, with a few rough
guidelines to the number of people. from mails here and in private I
judge that at least 10 people will surely attend, and possibly up to 50.
I'll look for a place that will be comfortable for 10-50 people. so if
you plan to fly in two dozen cypherpunks from somewhere, please give me
a notice. :)

that's also true for anyone who needs help with travel arrangements or a
place to stay for a night or two. send a mail either to me or to the
list.




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep  6 07:46:45 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:46:45 -0400
Subject: CDR: new brit spybook simmering
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906074436.008b6a30@pop.sprynet.com>


Those brits really need a 1st amendment...
(and the _SUN_ needs to buy a clue about physical security)
..good hype for Random House though..


http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12986507

                           WEDNESDAY, 06 SEPTEMBER, 2000



                   SUN PUTS SPY
                   SECRETS UNDER
                   LOCK AND KEY


                    Details ... Dame Stella Rimington 

                   EXCLUSIVE


                   By JOHN KAY 

                   THE Sun has been handed a copy of a
                   red-hot book of spy secrets written by
                   the former head of MI5. 

                   The manuscript by Dame Stella
                   Rimington is now being vetted by
                   security chiefs to decide if it can be
                   published in ANY form. 

                   Many of them want to ban A Life Of
                   Surprises because it is packed with
                   detail about Dame Stella's career -
                   especially her four years as MI5 boss.

                   We spent weeks checking the facts in
                   the book to establish it was not a
                   hoax. The manuscript is safely locked
                   in The Sun's safe. 

                   Then we contacted Downing Street
                   chiefs to arrange for the red-hot
                   document to be collected. 

                   We decided it was not in the national
                   interest to reveal any of the book's
                   more sensitive contents. 

                   But we CAN disclose that it touches
                   on such matters as spy provisions in
                   the Cold War, the ultra-secret SAS
                   and terrorism. 


                   Top secret ... we decided it was not
                    in national interest to reveal any
                               details 

                   It also includes references to the
                   left-wing Militant Tendency and the
                   Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. 

                   The book - which is packed with
                   detail about Dame Stella's 29-year
                   career in the secret service - came
                   into our hands anonymously. 

                   And one theory was that a
                   disgruntled spook at MI5's rival
                   organisation MI6 arranged for the
                   copy to be delivered to us in a bid to
                   sabotage publication. 

                   The Sun exclusively revealed last May
                   that 65-year-old Dame Stella - given
                   her title in the 1996 New Year's
                   Honours - had written her memoirs. 

                   She submitted a draft to the
                   Government seeking official approval
                   to publish, which has not yet been
                   granted. 

                   But the serving heads of MI5 and
                   MI6, Stephen Lander and Richard
                   Dearlove, together with Cabinet
                   Secretary Sir Richard Wilson, all
                   wanted the book banned. 

                   Some senior MI6 officers were so
                   outraged they demanded to have
                   Dame Stella arrested under the
                   Official Secrets Act. 


                      Safe as houses ... we locked
                      book up amid tight security 

                   Home Secretary Jack Straw fears a
                   ban could be challenged under the
                   new human rights act which becomes
                   law next month. 

                   Mother-of-two Dame Stella, who
                   retired from the #90,000-a-year job in
                   1996, has already been offered a
                   #500,000 advance by publishers
                   Random House. 

                   And it is believed she could earn up
                   to #1million through worldwide sales
                   and serialisations. 

                   But in a postscript, Dame Stella says:
                   "As I write this in January 2000,
                   nearly four years on, I don't know if
                   what I have written will ever be
                   published. 

                   "I have not yet told my former
                   colleagues that I am writing it, and
                   when I do, and when they see what I
                   have written, there may be such a
                   furore that it will never see the light
                   of day. 

                   "I hope it does because I think the
                   story it tells is an important
                   counterbalance to the scandals and
                   revelations that have been too much
                   the currency of writing on British
                   intelligence." 

                   She adds: "So if anyone ever reads
                   this, I hope you enjoy it." 


                      Honour ... MI5's first woman
                    boss being made a Dame in 1996 

                   The book describes the casual way in
                   which she was recruited while
                   working as a civil servant in India -
                   when the resident MI5 agent
                   whispered in her ear: "Pst, do you
                   want to be a spy?" 

                   It discloses how she rapidly worked
                   her way up the ladder in a profession
                   dominated by men. 

                   The book is dotted with humorous
                   anecdotes including her dealings with
                   ex-PMs Maggie Thatcher and John
                   Major. 

                   There is also much detail about the
                   "methodology" of MI5 - especially
                   over counter-espionage and the war
                   against the IRA. 

                   Dame Stella, who is immensely proud
                   to have been Britain's first female
                   spymaster, claims credit for
                   overseeing a large increase in the
                   number of women spooks. 

                   Security chiefs want to stop
                   publication because they fear
                   information being given to Britain's
                   enemies - and to avoid being accused
                   of double standards. 

                   The Government went to great
                   lengths to try to ban the Spycatcher
                   memoirs of former MI5 bugging
                   expert Peter Wright. 

                   Ex-MI5 officer David Shayler has
                   returned to Britain to face charges
                   under the Official Secrets Act for
                   writing about the secret service. 

                   And ex-MI6 officer Richard Tomlinson
                   was jailed for trying to publish his
                   autobiography. 


                      Shock ... Sun story last May 

                   A senior government security source
                   said: "This is what is so appalling. It
                   is not so much the content, it is the
                   principle of her writing it which is all
                   so wrong. 

                   "She should just keep quiet and enjoy
                   her sizeable pension and income from
                   directorships. 

                   "By writing her book she is only
                   encouraging other spies to start
                   penning their own memoirs." Copies
                   of the manuscript are understood to
                   have been circulated to MI5, MI6,
                   Special Branch, senior civil servants
                   and government ministers. 

                   Another security source said: "The
                   book does contain sensitive
                   information but there is no question
                   of Dame Stella naming any of our
                   agents. The biggest fear is that it will
                   open the floodgates." 

                   Leading security expert Chris Dobson,
                   who has written 15 books on spies
                   and terrorists, said: "I congratulate
                   The Sun for acting in a highly
                   responsible manner. 

                   "It is essential that this book never
                   sees the light of the day." 

                   Snoop doggy
                   dogs MI5 HQ 

                   THE Sun is prepared to reveal only
                   one anecdote from Dame Stella's
                   book - because we don't believe it
                   breaches ANY official secrets. 

                   After becoming director general of
                   MI5 in 1992, her home was besieged
                   by journalists and she moved her two
                   daughters and their pet dog into an
                   apartment on the top floor of the spy
                   network's central London HQ. 

                   The hound was issued with his own
                   special security pass and a codename
                   - Alpha 7. 







  








From ericm at lne.com  Wed Sep  6 10:50:11 2000
From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:50:11 -0700
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two weeks early. [cpunk]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 09:36:32AM -0700
References:  <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20000906105011.T21426@slack.lne.com>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 09:36:32AM -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> When will we see the first RSAREF-compatible public-domain code?


'BSAFEeay', a BSAFE API layer on top of SSLeay's crypto lib, was
put up on the net about three years ago.  It was mostly complete.
I beleive that RSAREF is the same API as BSAFE.


-- 
  Eric Murray http://www.lne.com/ericm  ericm at lne.com  PGP keyid:E03F65E5
                     Consulting Security Architect




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep  6 08:33:51 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:33:51 -0400
Subject: DCSB: RSA Expiration Fundraiser for EFF, Downtown Harvard Club of
 Boston
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                   The Members of

        The Digital Commerce Society of Boston,

                ,
                        and
     The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation

                In Celebration of the

             EXPIRATION OF THE RSA PATENT


        invite the Digital Commerce Community
       to cocktails and an evening fundraiser for
           the recent litigation efforts of


          THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION


           Special Guests to Be Announced


                  Wednesday Evening
                 September 20, 2000
                  5:30 to 8:30 PM

         The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston
           One Federal Street, 38th Floor
                       Boston

                 Free hors d'oeuvres
                      Cash Bar
       Beautiful views of Boston Harbor at night

           Requested minimum donation $35
             The event's goal is $10,000



             RSVP (or for *sponsorship :-)),
                   Robert Hettinga,
                      Moderator,
        The Digital Commerce Society of Boston,
               

       The Club's new dress code is "Business Casual",
                 whatever *that* means...




-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQEVAwUBObZiU8UCGwxmWcHhAQEcxAgAhABrdq+bcxPDMYcjyaYDFFkPq3s8Ymnk
6SqQmqWRTOaK7+cK+AVXuleNtSk13EMPRBtOLq56HRQH3Ea8/GpW8Oe1xpXQJf/c
4ASX4FfApS78jP+9qFVLiN6F8xqUKCJMDSaa0nqwbmc4XBzMMpHCNKFhWEdYqur9
Mkf8N7IYJcItPbpMcC6QUoNTVg1wQLt3rptZnsEyHyTWgge2z1lRO8Jt38m6NfS9
5ZPem8IkUpYjcIpqQVw2DhsoRO6v/jYZxeulNHty26hxbME2RnLfxEMuaCoqq5aM
zWPkRLMSyhYqo0POsSpOLg1FjA6wgMA0GTi0BbeDKqWGsSH25Av5Fw==
=o7iR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  6 08:36:55 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:36:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: new brit spybook simmering
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000906074436.008b6a30@pop.sprynet.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906074436.008b6a30@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:46 AM -0400 9/6/00, David Honig wrote:
>Those brits really need a 1st amendment...
>(and the _SUN_ needs to buy a clue about physical security)
>..good hype for Random House though..
>
>http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12986507
>

Firstly, there is nothing in the article suggesting that the "Sun" is 
acting under orders from the British government. In fact, the quotes 
imply otherwise.

"  We decided it was not in the national interest to reveal any of 
the book's more sensitive contents. " is one such quote.

Granted, the article goes on to say that the heads of the 
intelligence agencies want the book banned and even want Dame Stella 
prosecuted for violating the Official Secrets Act. The U.S. does not 
have such a broad ban on publication as the Official Secrets Act, but 
it certainly has its own constellation of laws, criminal and civil, 
regarding distribution of bits, export of bits, etc. Ask the inventor 
of the PhasorPhone about how he was banned from describing his own 
invention to others. (Patent secrecy orders, "classified in the 
national interest," codeword material, etc.)

Secondly, the U.S. has imposed limits on the writings of former 
agents of its intelligence services, contractually and otherwise. 
Former agents routinely have to seek permision to publish their books.

Thirdly, some folks in the U.S. have faced prosecution for 
publication of books and photos allegedly violating U.S. security. 
The "Jane's" case of several years back.

Fourthly, the U.S. sometimes resorts to extra-legal measures to stop 
those who write what it doesn't like.

--Tim May





-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Sep  6 08:40:18 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:40:18 -0400 
Subject: CDR: [Apologies] RE: RSA Security releases ... cpunk
Message-ID: 

I don't know why the post is appearing multiple times, and
I'm as annoyed about it as you are.

Peter Trei




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep  6 11:44:35 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:44:35 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Good work by FBI and SEC on Emulex fraud case
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
 
 <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000906114435.009714f0@idiom.com>

>At 1:12 PM -0700 8/31/00, Eric Murray wrote:
>>A small note: IW digitally-signing the releases would not
>>have made a difference in this case--  the guy used his knowledge
>>of IW's procedures to social-engineer IW into accepting the
>>fake release without doing their usual checking procedures.

At 01:22 PM 8/31/00 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>The system I envision would mean each chunk of text ("press release") 
>would carry a digital sig, which could be checked multiple times. 
>Hard for social engineering to get past the fact that Emulex, say, 
>had not digitally signed their own alleged press release.

How often do people check signatures?  
If they check them, and they pass, how often do they check keys?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


From cactus at TAKEMEOUTcactus-cactus.com  Wed Sep  6 11:55:41 2000
From: cactus at TAKEMEOUTcactus-cactus.com (Cactus)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 11:55:41 -0700
Subject: CDR: Weekly updates at Cactus Cactus
Message-ID: <20000906185747.HTJE22841.mail2.rdc2.bc.home.com@CR209993-A.crdva1.bc.wave.home.com>

Come join the party at Cactus Cactus!
http://www.cactus-cactus.com/




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep  6 09:09:18 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:09:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: DCSB: RSA Expiration Fundraiser for EFF, Downtown Harvard Club of
  Boston
Message-ID: 


--- begin forwarded text



From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep  6 12:10:57 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:10:57 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Is kerberos broken?
References:  <39B59208.DB335A0F@sunder.net> <00ca01c01803$9f2dc7c0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>
Message-ID: <39B696C1.46280F4C@sunder.net>

Marcel Popescu wrote:
> 
> X-Loop: openpgp.net
> From: "sunder" 
> 
> > I tend to just string up lots of characters, so my passphrases look like
> this:
> >
> >  ^#.;Odfi9 at 7f$}'~%42w0,m:Qe_|33+\  and so on.
> 
> Why the heck would you need a password this big? There are 94 printable
> characters (0x33 .. 0x7E); a random password 32 chars long (like the above)
> will thus have ~ 1.38 x 10^63 possibilities, meaning 210 bits of entropy
> (10^63 = O(2^210)). What, do you intend to use your password as a public
> key?
> 
> A password made of the same character set, but only 8 chars long, will
> provide 94^8 ~= 6 x 10^15 = O(2^50) combinations. I'd say that's plenty -
> remember, it's a password, not a key.

I use things like the above as passphrases, not passwords, to things like PGP or the encrypted disk partitions I use.  Hence you
need lots of entropy.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Sep  6 10:29:15 2000
From: measl at mfn.org (Missouri FreeNet Administration)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:29:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two weeks e arly. [cpunk]
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


:RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain
:
:'c = m(e) mod n' Made Available Two Weeks Early

ROTFLMAO!  Gee: wasn't it "public" already? 

Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

--
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep  6 13:08:16 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:08:16 -0700
Subject: CDR: Aldrich Ames might go free; .gov security still lax, etc...
Message-ID: <39B6A430.68DDFA7D@sunder.net>

>From SLF:


http://thescotsman.co.uk/world.cfm?id=TS00133394&d

Moscow poised to offer Cold War-style spy swap 

Chris Stephen In Moscow 

REPORTS in Russia suggest Moscow is preparing to offer the
United States a Cold War-style "spy swap" involving the
release of an American businessman charged with espionage in
return for the convicted spy Aldrich Ames. 

A Moscow newspaper, Sevodnya, yesterday quoted a source
in Russia’s security service, the FSB, as saying they were
considering offering to swap the businessman, Edmond Pope. 

He is accused of trying to buy plans for the same top secret
torpedo, the Squall, that was being tested by the Kursk
submarine when it exploded and sank last month. 





http://www.bergen.com/morenews/fake200009026.htm

Investigators with phony ID
easily breach security checks 

Sunday, September 3, 2000

By TAMARA LYTLE
Special from The Orlando Sentinel

WASHINGTON -- Investigators used phony law-enforcement
identification available on the Internet and elsewhere to breach security
at some of the nation's most sensitive agencies, including the CIA, the
FBI, and the Departments of Justice and State.

The investigators breezed into 18 federal facilities, Orlando International
Airport, Washington's Reagan National Airport, and the U.S courthouse
in Orlando simply by flashing fake badges and credentials. In some cases
they were able to claim they had firearms but still bypass metal
detectors and other screening.




http://www4.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2620091,00.html

Big Brother Is Watching . . . What You Buy
August 28, 2000  8:19 AM ET
By Lisa Dempster


In his nightmarish novel 1984, George Orwell envisioned a future in which the merest hint of privacy would be treason and
protagonist Winston Smith would be cowed into embracing truth in his telescreen. The year in question came and went, but could
Orwell's bad dream become our reality two decades later? What kind of privacy protection will we be able to expect from the Internet
in 2004? Picture this: Retinal scans, fingerprint readers built into your mouse and voice recognition software able to nail your
identity down to the roots of your genetic code. Great for keeping your identity a secret from advertising piranhas, but do you
really want your bank or online health-care provider to store such intimate information?


Unlike Orwell's dour Smith, who struggled to conceal his thoughts and feelings from Big Brother, privacy advocates predict our
biggest concern in four years' time will be camouflaging ourselves from corporate behemoths devoted to discovering our every
purchasing peccadillo - and pandering to it.




http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=306483

UPDATE: MS Word documents can be tracked on Web 
by Peter Sayer, IDG News Service\Paris Bureau 
August 31, 2000, 07:53 

 Creators of Microsoft Word documents can use the application's
 well-documented ability to include Web hyperlinks in documents to
 remotely track who is reading a them, according to a study by the
 Denver-based Privacy Foundation published Wednesday.

 Users of Microsoft's word processor have been able to embed graphics in
 their documents for the best part of a decade, but only in versions of the
 program since Word 97 have users been able to replace a bulky,
 memory-hogging graphic with a short URL (Uniform Resource Locator)
 pointing to the location of the graphic on a Web server. Each time the
 document is opened, the computer sends an HTTP (Hypertext Transfer
 Protocol) request to the Web server asking for the graphic in order to
 display it.





-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From agl at linuxpower.org  Wed Sep  6 10:54:18 2000
From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:54:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:27:53AM -0400
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <20000906195618.F12619@linuxpower.org>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:27:53AM -0400, David Honig wrote:
>      BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany is planning to slap new
>      levies on computer, telecommunications and Internet
>      products to ensure that authors are properly rewarded for
>      the use of their work, a newspaper said Wednesday.

Is this really a bad thing? Music is becomming a public service. When author
cannot control their works (as is happening now) the works basically become
a public service - and the way public services are funded is by govt taxes. If
they stop trying (and failing) to control content and just use this - well
it's not perfect - but it's better than a DMCA/UCITA world.

My worry is that they distribute this money only to the big record companies
and screw the 'real musicians'

AGL

-- 
I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 240 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  6 14:02:56 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:02:56 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Good work by FBI and SEC on Emulex fraud case
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000906114435.009714f0@idiom.com>
References: <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
 
 <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000906114435.009714f0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 

At 11:44 AM -0700 9/6/00, Bill Stewart wrote:
>  >At 1:12 PM -0700 8/31/00, Eric Murray wrote:
>>>A small note: IW digitally-signing the releases would not
>>>have made a difference in this case--  the guy used his knowledge
>>>of IW's procedures to social-engineer IW into accepting the
>>>fake release without doing their usual checking procedures.
>
>At 01:22 PM 8/31/00 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>The system I envision would mean each chunk of text ("press release")
>>would carry a digital sig, which could be checked multiple times.
>>Hard for social engineering to get past the fact that Emulex, say,
>>had not digitally signed their own alleged press release.
>
>How often do people check signatures?
>If they check them, and they pass, how often do they check keys?
>


Don't know. But not the problem of those issuing press releases. That 
_some_ people check signatures, whether electronic or inked, and 
_other_ people _don't_ doesn't lessen the significance of signing.

Those who bother to check a putative press release and find the 
attached signature doesn't match what they have seen from Web sites 
(and related "widely witnessed events," including hashes published in 
the company's financial documents, etc.) will have competitive 
advantages over those who don't bother to check and just hit the 
panic button.

Sounds fair to me. Sounds like evolution in action.


--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From ClipperCruiseLine at emailhoster.com  Wed Sep  6 13:52:52 2000
From: ClipperCruiseLine at emailhoster.com (ClipperCruiseLine at emailhoster.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 14:53:52 -0559
Subject: CDR: A Special Offer to Discover New Zealand from Clipper Cruise Line
Message-ID: 

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 4842 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From craig at red-bean.com  Wed Sep  6 12:01:56 2000
From: craig at red-bean.com (Craig Brozefsky)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:01:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: Adam Langley's message of "Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:54:18 -0400"
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <877l8pqr96.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>

Adam Langley  writes:

> Is this really a bad thing? Music is becomming a public
> service. When author cannot control their works (as is happening
> now) the works basically become a public service - and the way
> public services are funded is by govt taxes.= If they stop trying
> (and failing) to control content and just use this - well it's not
> perfect - but it's better than a DMCA/UCITA world.

it is naive to think that this tax is going to stop them from pursuing
their UCITA/DMCA led efforts to completely control the works they
distribute in order to destroy "fair use" and reap as much money as
possible from consumers.  This tax is just icing on the cake for
them, a welcome revenue stream.



-- 
Craig Brozefsky               
"Revolution begins by giving things and social
 relationships their real names". --  L. Trotsky





From billstewart at att.com  Wed Sep  6 15:46:38 2000
From: billstewart at att.com (Bill Stewart or other lab user)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:46:38 -0700
Subject: CDR: GPG Slashdot discussion; Phil Z Interview
Message-ID: <39B6C94E.99CC3031@att.com>

Slashdot discussion at
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/09/06/1653255&mode=thread

OctaneZ asks: "What are the relative merits and drawbacks of using 
Gnu Privacy Guard vs. Network Associates' PGP. I am not referring 
to the fact that GPG doesn't use any restricted implemtations or
algorithems; or that GPG was not affected by the recent PGP hole; 
but other more everyday issues. How is interoperability between the two. 
As well as integration into common applications such as Eudora in
windows and others, possibly PINE, in LINUX. Could this be deployed 
such that the learning curve of transitioning users from PGP to GPG is
not too steep? 
I am a strong beleiver in encryption, and have used PGP for a very long
time, 
however I would prefer to use an OpenSource/Non-restricted program; 
however the usefullness of said program, as well as the security 
takes precidence, at least in my book." 

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/09/06/1916226&mode=thread

A reader writes "PGP's creator is participating in an online interview
this week. 
	http://forums.itworld.com/webx?14@@.ee6caf5
Phil is mainly interested in  clearing the air about the 
recently discovered ADK bug, but the larger topics of encryption 
and worldwide organized snoop rings (Echelon) have already come up. 
The interview is open to questions from anyone; runs through Friday
9/8." 


========================




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  6 12:56:42 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:56:42 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <20000906195618.F12619@linuxpower.org>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:54 PM -0400 9/6/00, Adam Langley wrote:
>--kXdP64Ggrk/fb43R
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Disposition: inline
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:27:53AM -0400, David Honig wrote:
>>       BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany is planning to slap new
>>       levies on computer, telecommunications and Internet
>>       products to ensure that authors are properly rewarded for
>>       the use of their work, a newspaper said Wednesday.
>
>Is this really a bad thing? Music is becomming a public service. When author
>cannot control their works (as is happening now) the works basically become
>a public service - and the way public services are funded is by govt taxes.=
>  If
>they stop trying (and failing) to control content and just use this - well
>it's not perfect - but it's better than a DMCA/UCITA world.
>
>My worry is that they distribute this money only to the big record companies
>and screw the 'real musicians'

You're missing a more important point: there is no correlation 
between who is using the service or product and who is paying the tax.

Taxing a computer used for video game playing, for example, when 
absolutely no "piracy" is happening from that computer. An overly 
wide net.

Governments like this sort of thing, however. Tax everyone, then 
spend the revenues as they wish.

Might as well tax paper products, pens, pencils, and 
typewriters...because sometimes these are used to copy the works of 
others.

But, as I said, the deeper issue is the "disconnect" between the tax 
and the allegedly "improper use" of some service.

The U.S. have done this many times, of course. In particular, the 
Home Recording Act of 1991, or thereabouts, which slapped a tax on 
blank tapes and let home recording folks copy as much as they wanted 
(so long as they don't sell the tapes). (A friend of mine has over 
4500 CDs copied digitally onto DAT and CD-R. I'm just a piker, having 
only about 500 CDs copied onto DAT and CD-R. Why _buy_ a CD when our 
libraries have tens of thousands of CDs available for borrowing and 
copying?)

And from a practical standpoint, this bad tax (bad in the 
decorrelation, nonmarket sense) also leads us in the wrong direction. 
Instead of the recording companies figuring out technological and 
market solutions, they are relying on "men with guns" to collect 
taxes and, hopefully, with enough lobbyists in Bonn and Berne and 
D.C., to dribble some of these taxes back to the recording companies.

Feh.

--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From shamrock at cypherpunks.to  Wed Sep  6 12:59:38 2000
From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:59:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain two
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 

I fail to see why anybody would bother with coding up an RSAref compatible
lib. But there is of course RSAref Europe, so that job was done years ago.
What is more interesting is how long it will take for us to see more
fully-featured BSAFE API compatible code.

--Lucky


On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Bill Stewart wrote:

> When will we see the first RSAREF-compatible public-domain code?
> 
> At 10:10 AM 9/6/00 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
> >Wednesday September 6, 8:03 am Eastern Time
> >
> >Press Release
> >
> >SOURCE: RSA Security Inc.
> >
> >RSA Security Releases RSA Encryption Algorithm into Public Domain
> >
> >'c = m(e) mod n' Made Available Two Weeks Early
> >
> >BEDFORD, Mass., Sept. 6 /PRNewswire/ -- RSA� Security
> >Inc. (Nasdaq: RSAS - news) today announced it has released the
> >RSA public key encryption algorithm into the public domain,
> >allowing anyone to create products that incorporate their own
> >implementation of the algorithm. This means that RSA Security has
> >waived its rights to enforce the patent for any development
> >activities that include the RSA algorithm occurring after
> >September 6, 2000.
> 
> 
> 				Thanks! 
> 					Bill
> Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
> PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
> 
> 
> 


-- Lucky Green  PGP encrypted email preferred.





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep  6 13:05:54 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:05:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <877l8pqr96.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 

At 3:01 PM -0400 9/6/00, Craig Brozefsky wrote:
>Adam Langley  writes:
>
>>  Is this really a bad thing? Music is becomming a public
>>  service. When author cannot control their works (as is happening
>>  now) the works basically become a public service - and the way
>>  public services are funded is by govt taxes.= If they stop trying
>>  (and failing) to control content and just use this - well it's not
>>  perfect - but it's better than a DMCA/UCITA world.
>
>it is naive to think that this tax is going to stop them from pursuing
>their UCITA/DMCA led efforts to completely control the works they
>distribute in order to destroy "fair use" and reap as much money as
>possible from consumers.  This tax is just icing on the cake for
>them, a welcome revenue stream.

I agree completely. The Home Recording Act I referenced in my last 
message was also a tax (on blank tape), and yet it certainly didn't 
stop the recording companies from going after Napster, MP3, and 
various other companies.

The governments of the world always love new excuses to add taxes.

And the extra lobbying that will result as companies scramble to try 
to glom onto this "revenue stream" will also be welcome to 
governments: this will increase campaign contributions, kickbacks, 
bribes, and lucrative post-gov't. employment offers. The mother's 
milk of politics.

And cretins like Gore and McCain babble on about "campaign reform." 
Why do high tech companies feel the need to fund _both_ major parties 
in these United States? Insurance. Protection money. The nation is a 
"shakedown state," a protection racket, with campaign contributions 
and the like just the rent the government collects. This funds the 
lobbyists in their large Georgetown mansions, this funds the 
Caribbean cruises, this funds the lucrative jobs at Halliburton 
(Cheney), Microsoft (Patty Murray), and so on, for a hundred other 
such examples.)

This whole foo-fah over MP3 is just seen as a chance to shake down 
the companies for more money, with the highest bidder winning the pot.

Germany is just trying to get into the racket as best it can.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Wed Sep  6 13:06:18 2000
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:06:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: 128-bit netscaoe v4 for bellsouth.net
References: <39B48B81.8D99E1F6@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <39B6A3BA.8ADAF423@crosswinds.net>

Sonny wrote:
> 
> hello I would like to know if Netscape communictor version 4.* is
> available for bellsouth.net with 128-bit encryption. Pleas Email me

Yep son, download from home.netscape.com

--
 "It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and to 
 expose lies."  -Noam Chomsky




From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep  6 14:23:16 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:23:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: European CDR nodes
In-Reply-To: <20000906182609.26727.qmail@c0re.rc23.cx>
Message-ID: 


On 6 Sep 2000 drt at c0re.rc23.cx wrote:

> In cypherpunks, you wrote:
> 
> >European CDR nodes?
> 
> As already told, I'm working on that. 
> 
> I would like to get some Information on the existing CDR Nodes:
> 
> 1. Amount Traffic
> 2. Nr. of Subscribers
> 3. Software &  Configuration used.
> 
> Do you keep a Message-ID History to avoid loops like used in NNTP or
> do you do yust path filtering to decide it news should go to the
> other nodes?

See,

http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#newnode

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Wed Sep  6 13:24:56 2000
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:24:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Religious and Psychological Warfare Tactics in Phoenix, AZ
References: <39B4231D.F5992E3A@apfn.org>
Message-ID: <39B6A818.36E556A6@crosswinds.net>

American Patriot Friends Network wrote:
> 
> I found this anonymously posted article at the following URL:
> This information is well worth reading, IMHO.....
	Yes, as far as poorly argued disinfo goes.
Ever notice how the scientific explanations in articles like these are
*so* vague that it is really impossible to verify anything ?

Nanotechnology supercomputers ?  Can I parse this ? What is a
nanotechnology supercomputer ?
If conspiracy theorists had a background in the physical sciences it
would make their writings easier to understand...

> links. In other words, along with supercomputers directly filling your brain
> with images and thoughts, there is the capability to create the illusion of
> mind reading abilities with the brain to brain links.
	How ?  Any description of the technologies involved or are we supposed
to just take the author's words for it ?
When the trivial write on matters of import the results tend to be ugly.
If there is any truth in mind control speculations then these guys are
doing a double disservice ! Telling the truth in a form that is
completely unacceptable to anyone with a background in the sciences.

> technology. People are being connected to these electromagnetic frequencies,
	How ? How is a person "connected to electromagnetic frequencies" ?
Which frequencies ?  The article just mentions: "Cellular phone
frequencies,
microwave radar and radio frequencies"  dear God, what a huge chunck of
the spectrum, no ?  A few Billion Hertz...

> their thoughts are being monitored and recorded 
	How ?  

> Religious Organizations can easily abuse this procedure, 
	fnord

> In addition, a device called the Bio-Pacer has also been developed that will
> inflict a "goose-bumps" effect on individual subjects likely via satellite.
	"Likely" via satellite... In other words he has no clue but believes
that satellite will be a likely medium ?

> Some notable anti-gay members of the Arizona Legislature are Karen Johnson
> and Barbara Blewster. Barbara has stated that "Homosexuality leads to
> beastiality, human sacrifice and cannibalism.". 
	*snicker* can I quote this ?

> Other technology includes microchips which are designed to be injected into
> the blood stream of unaware citizens that are 200 times smaller than a human
> hair (nanotechnology) 
	Are these microchips developed ?  If so how do you know ?  A well
placed source, a trusted informant ?
Can anyone brief us on the current state of nanotechnology research ?

> Awareness to what is actually taking place allows you to become stronger and
> better able to withstand this repulsive game until it is fully exposed 

	Only if one is actually, in fact, aware and only if one is actually, in
fact, informed and properly informed.

My concern is with backing up of wild claims, if someone gives me
evidence for a claim then I will seriously consider it, no matter how
wild it appears on the surface, but without even this where does one
start ?

THIS is what concerns me, people are making serious claims and not
giving jack to back it up with.  If their purpose is disinfo then they
are working, if their purpose is to actually help in a real situation
then they are shooting THEMSELVES in the foot.




From BNinc_MasterWelcome at email.bn.com  Wed Sep  6 13:56:38 2000
From: BNinc_MasterWelcome at email.bn.com (Barnes & Noble Booksellers)
Date: Wed,  6 Sep 2000 16:56:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: 10% COUPON FROM BARNES & NOBLE 
Message-ID: 

Dear Barnes & Noble Customer, 

Thank you for providing us with your email address. As promised,
we are sending you a Barnes & Noble discount coupon, good toward
10% off your next purchase at a Barnes & Noble bookstore.

****************************************************

BARNES & NOBLE BOOKSTORE 10% DISCOUNT COUPON

Take 10% off your total purchase of $25 or more at a Barnes & Noble, 
even if your selection is already discounted! Just print out this 
email message and bring it to any Barnes & Noble bookstore.

Coupon code: C475092700
This offer is good through 9/27/00
Coupon is valid on a single purchase transaction made at a 
Barnes & Noble, Bookstop, or Bookstar store. May not be used 
toward the purchase of electronic gift cards (and/or gift 
certificates). Not valid at Barnes & Noble College Bookstores.
Limit one coupon per customer.
Email address: cypherpunks at toad.com

****************************************************

YOU ARE NOW CONNECTED TO THE BARNES & NOBLE NETWORK

...and therefore will receive the latest information via email 
on special events, promotional offers, new book announcements, 
and more from your favorite Barnes & Noble bookstore and 
Barnes & Noble.com.

If you would like to find out what's going on at a 
Barnes & Noble bookstore, or you want to shop at 
Barnes & Noble.com right now, click on one of the 
links below. 

To locate a Barnes & Noble store or search upcoming 
in-store events:
http://email.bn.com/cgi-bin6/flo?y=eCft0B2vOp0pO0BIWL

To shop at Barnes & Noble.com:
http://email.bn.com/cgi-bin6/flo?y=eCft0B2vOp0pO0BEne
(Sorry, we can't redeem the above 10% discount coupon
online, but you'll enjoy our excellent everyday prices
nonetheless.)


PLEASE NOTE:
If you wish not to receive future email updates and offers from 
Barnes & Noble, or if you would like to personally select the 
stores about which we send you information, please click here:
http://email.bn.com/cgi-bin6/profile?y=eCft0B2vOp0pOl
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 2424 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From madmullah at crosswinds.net  Wed Sep  6 14:12:54 2000
From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:12:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: (no subject)
References: 
Message-ID: <39B6B356.F08DC1EA@crosswinds.net>

> i was wondering if there is a way u can listen to a 900 mhz cordless phone
> conversation from some type of scanner ,
	Yes and no.  If it is spread spectrum then without a spectrum analyzer
with an Audio Demod and some other stuff, you can't monitor it :-)

If its a straight non spread spectrum non digital signal then yes you
can, just search the allocated frequencies.

> and be able to pinpoint the exact
> phone? 
	a couple of good yagi antennas, some signal strength meters, and wide
band recievers should help you.
Look up "Fox Hunting" and talk to some local hams, they should be able
to help you out.

> can u bugg a cordless phone without being seen? 
	I won't insult you by asking if you are na idiot, but please try to
come up with sensical questions friend.

> is there listening devices that can go thru houses to hear?
	I could not even start to parse this one folks...




From weinmann at rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de  Wed Sep  6 08:19:07 2000
From: weinmann at rbg.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de (Ralf-Philipp Weinmann)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 17:19:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: CDR: Re: linux-ipsec: RSA released
In-Reply-To: <000c01c01811$6fcadb90$1301a8c0@rms.acroloop.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Roy Silvernail wrote:

> Looks to me like they just didn't want to let the parties go on as
> scheduled.

I totally agree. They are fucking up the party schedule!
Bloody bastards.
Those 2 weeks sure would have made a real difference in royalty
income I suppose :)
I'd have had respect for them had they done it a year early.

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf-P. Weinmann 
PGP fingerprint: 2048/46C772078ACB58DEF6EBF8030CBF1724




From sc4tal19 at idt.net  Wed Sep  6 14:29:10 2000
From: sc4tal19 at idt.net (Roy M. Silvernail)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:29:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: 
References: <20000906195618.F12619@linuxpower.org>
 <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000906172354.00aac700@pop3.idt.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:56 PM 9/6/00 -0400, Tim wrote:

>The U.S. have done this many times, of course. In particular, the Home 
>Recording Act of 1991, or thereabouts, which slapped a tax on blank tapes 
>and let home recording folks copy as much as they wanted (so long as they 
>don't sell the tapes). (A friend of mine has over 4500 CDs copied 
>digitally onto DAT and CD-R. I'm just a piker, having only about 500 CDs 
>copied onto DAT and CD-R. Why _buy_ a CD when our libraries have tens of 
>thousands of CDs available for borrowing and copying?)

Interesting to note that the same type tax applies to "music CD-R" blanks 
(of the type required by the Phillips-Magnavox style music CD burners, 
which won't burn onto a data blank).  Last I looked, such blanks were 
still >$1.00, where data CD-R blanks are down to ~$0.39.  And, of course, 
computer-based burners have no problem burning audio onto a data CD-R.

>And from a practical standpoint, this bad tax (bad in the decorrelation, 
>nonmarket sense) also leads us in the wrong direction. Instead of the 
>recording companies figuring out technological and market solutions, they 
>are relying on "men with guns" to collect taxes and, hopefully, with 
>enough lobbyists in Bonn and Berne and D.C., to dribble some of these 
>taxes back to the recording companies.

Where they doubtless stay.  It's pretty well known how little artists make 
from their corp-owned recorded works.

- --
            Roy M. Silvernail     [ ]     sc4tal19 at idt.net
DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division
PGP Public Key fingerprint =  31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54  13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6
                  Key available from pubkey at scytale.com
             I charge to process unsolicited commercial email
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQEVAwUBOba3JmCl9Uka85MxAQEAywf/XMMC0nvBoIzJ1ulRanBATG8S75tlHbFp
wW1D93v8UqRdGsi5kRvrKfB5dfU/NIQg8hWxGnw0KhsgEtNbCzJUkdaIbAfDL9vm
FkWQEChe3KHLSzc+OhFwq632heuTKSkAyCmt9qNg8S3BeLs/BXgVywZZLmEDeJB9
JfmevrxALZ+917v/GteD1jusFOZM8PonKfYtuxhEwW3hGXOo2AmQm1Hj/drZjXkS
bD1EEN0opWkoq0RqXOqDeDVZHDA6owkUiPXCULabznLqTMpbFt43d3Gcrk0zhaOH
VQMbzvKZ1z4bFt+6CZqpZVLmZiDcVL2e9fwCCFkFlQNo1uPPhh0AfA==
=eWI3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep  6 17:29:50 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:29:50 -0700
Subject: CDR: BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration 9/11 7:30pm SFO Hyatt
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000906172950.00795830@idiom.com>

=======================================

Media Advisory

BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration
Whit Diffie and Dave Del Torto Speak of RSA's Past and Future

WHO: Electronic Frontier Foundation, Whit Diffie, Dave Del Torto
and music by UKUSA from VirtualRecordings.com
WHAT: `BayFF' Meeting on RSA Patent Expiration
WHEN: Monday September 11th, 2000 at 7:30PM
WHERE: Hyatt Regency San Francisco Airport
(650) 347-1234

Directions are forthcoming on the EFF website: www.eff.org

In honor of its 10th Anniversary of defending civil liberties online, EFF
presents a series of monthly meetings to address important issues where
technology and policy collide. These meetings, entitled "BayFF,"
kicked off on July 10th and will continue throughout the year. The upcoming
BayFF features famed cryptographer Whitfield Diffie and MEconomy's Master of
Secrets, Dave Del Torto. They will help us celebrate the RSA patent's
expiration on September 20th, 2000. How will these changes effect the public
at large? What are the benefits? Are there any drawbacks?

Whitfield Diffie, who holds the position of Distinguished Engineer at Sun
Microsystems, is best known for his 1975 discovery of the concept of public
key cryptography, for which he was awarded a Doctorate in Technical Sciences
(Honoris Causa) by the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in 1992. Diffie
received a Bachelor of Science degree in mathematics from the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology in 1965.

For a dozen years prior to assuming his present position in 1991, Diffie was
Manager of Secure Systems Research for Northern Telecom, functioning as the
center of expertise in advanced security technologies throughout the
corporation. Since 1993, Diffie has worked largely in public policy, in the
area of cryptography.

Dave Del Torto's career in Internet privacy and security started in
the late 1980s at the University of California at Berkeley, where he
was one of the original "Cypherpunks." He joined Pretty Good Privacy
Inc. (PGP) as a founding employee in 1996, and in 1997 was part of
the four-man team that published the entire PGP source code in 13
paper volumes, which resulted in the first legal international PGP
freeware (exports of 128-bit crypto have since been greatly deregulated).

He currently serves as the Executive Director of the CryptoRights Foundation
(a human rights security organization) and is the Chief Security Officer of
MEconomy, Inc., a privacy infomediary company based in San Francisco.


**** You can subscribe to EFF's mailing list to receive the
regular BayFF annoucements. To subscribe, email 
and put this in the text (not the subject line): subscribe BayFF.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org) is the leading
civil liberties organization working to protect rights in the digital world.
Founded in 1990, EFF actively encourages and challenges industry and
government to support free expression, privacy, and openness in the
information society. EFF is a member-supported organization and
maintains one of the most-linked-to Web sites in the world.

Contact:
John Marttila
Administrative Assistant
Electronic Frontier Foundation
415-436-9333 ex 107
 

<<<<

>>>>

======================
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From juzam at cyberspace.org  Wed Sep  6 14:30:35 2000
From: juzam at cyberspace.org (juzam)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 17:30:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
References: <200009052355.UAA27827@poseidon.inf.ufsc.br>
Message-ID: <39B6B77A.3CFD6ED2@cyberspace.org>

according to applied cryptography, these permutaions do not effect the
security of the algorithm, but i'm not sure about the purpose.

Augusto Jun Devegili wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I was just wondering... In DES, there's an Initial
> Permutation (IP) on the plaintext, then 16 rounds, and
> then the inverse permutation (IP^-1) of the result to
> produce the ciphertext.
>
> How effective are these permutations? Do they really
> add diffusion to the algorithm, considering that they
> don't depend on the key?
>
> Someone told me that they are necessary to provide
> reversibility to DES. Is this correct?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Best Regards,
>
> Devegili

--
foo=====================
   rim vilgalys
  juzam at cyberspace.org

 -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL

#!/bin/perl -sp0777i

SF Bay Area Cypherpunks September 2000 Physical Meeting Announcement

General Info:

DATE:   Saturday Sept 11 2000
TIME:   12:00 - 6:00 PM (Pacific Time)
PLACE:  Eric Messick's Dome, Santa Cruz Mountains

Agenda

This is a low-key meeting at Eric's home in the mountains, beginning about
1pm.

   ~12 -Bring lunch, undo geographical delocalization, admire mountain
        roads and wildlife. Carpooling would be a good idea, given limited
parking.
   ~1 - Admire the E-Dome, Hugh's Lab and the Copper-Insulated Wall,
        socialize, discuss Burning Man, Plan RSA Patent-expiration party
   ** - Eric Blossom's Starium Bump-in-the-wire Cryptophone demo -
        They're finally here, 3DES and everything.
   ** - Bill Scannell's trip to Ascension Island - An alternate landing site 
	for the space shuttle, Ascension island is forbidden turf, occupied by 
	NASA, NSA, and several other American spook agencies.
   ** - Hugh Daniel - IPSEC and FreeS/WAN update and demo.

As usual, this is an open public meeting on US soil.  
Please leave the US soil outside :-)

RSA has released the RSA patent to the public domain two weeks early,
so bring code!  There will still be a party around 9/20-9/23.

Whit Diffie and Dave Del Torto will speak at an EFF meeting Mon 9/11 7:30pm
at the Hyatt Regency San Francisco Airport in Burlingame.  
Details http://www.eff.org/EFF/BayFF/ will be posted soon.

Location

Most of the online maps provide unreliable directions, so use the attached.
I find the drive takes about 30 minutes from Mountain View or 15-20 from
the 280/17 intersection except during heavy traffic; parking is country roads 
and dirt driveways.

Postscript Map to Eric's House - for printing
Map

%  Human readable text directions to the E-Dome:
%
%                       Eric Messick  or  ||ugh Daniel
%                       15139 Old Ranch Road
%                       Los Gatos, California, 95030-8506
%                       Latitude 37 08' 02", Longitude 121 59' 40"
%                       edome at syzygy.com
%                       eric_&_messages(+1 408 353 4751)
%
%   From San Jose, take Highway 17 south from Interstate 280 or Highway 85.
%   From Santa Cruz, take Highway 17 North from Highway 1.
%   Exit Highway 17 at Summit Road and head west, in both directions that's
% a right off the highway and left onto Summit Road.
%   Follow Summit Road past two streets on the left until Summit makes a hard
% right turn at the third street, you want to turn left from Summit Road onto
% Hutchinson Road which is more like going straight (in the day time be VERY
% carful making this 'blind to oncoming traffic' turn!).
%   Follow Hutchinson until just after Riva Ridge Road veers up on the left
% and you see a long group of black mailboxes on the right, make an acute
% right turn here from Hutchinson Road onto Old Ranch Road.
%   At the first curve/split of Old Ranch road you want to stay right when the
% road splits, (there is a "SLOW 10 SPEED LIMIT" sign at the fork; keep
% to the right of this sign).
%   Follow the drive down the hill until it flattens out and the trees thin
% out above you, you should see the top of the E-Dome on your left, our
% driveway is the next left.
%
%  Distance table:
%  South on 17 from Interstate 280 to Summit Road             15.0mi / 21.0km
%  South on 17 from Highway 85 to Summit Road                 10.0mi / 14.0km?
%  North on 17 from Highway 1 to Summit Road                  12.5mi / 17.5km
%  Then:
%  West on Summit from Highway 17 to Hutchinson Road          00.5mi / 00.7km
%  West on Hutchinson Road from Summit Road to Old Ranch Road 00.2mi / 00.3km
%  Hutchinson Road down Old Ranch Road to our driveway        00.4mi / 00.6km
%
%
%  Schematic ASCII map to the E-Dome:
%
%                                   this way to San Jose
%                                         |          .
%                                         |          |\
%                                  |S     |H         |
%                       Old        |u     |W         | N
%                       Ranch      |m     |Y         | o
%                       Road       |m     |          | r
%                           |  */  |i     |1         | t
%                           |__/   |t     |7         | h
%                           /.     |      |
%                     ------++--+--+-+--+-=--------------
%        Hutchinson Road    /             |  Summit Road
%                          /              |
%                   Riva Ridge Road       |
%                                         |1
%                                         |7
%                                         |
%                                   this way to Santa Cruz
%  -/_|  Road
%  +     Road Intersection
%  =     Overpass
%  .     Line of mail boxes
%  *     E-Dome
%

If you have questions, comment or agenda requests, please contact the
meeting organizer:
   Bill Stewart bill.stewart at pobox.com Cell +1-415-307-7119

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
This announcement has been sent to the meetingpunks and cypherpunks lists.
To UNSUBSCRIBE an address from the meetingpunks list send email to:
    meetingpunks-request at majordomo.cryptorights.org
with "unsubscribe meetingpunks [optional-address]" in the BODY.
To SUBSCRIBE an address to this list send email to:
    meetingpunks-request at majordomo.cryptorights.org
with "subscribe meetingpunks [optional-address]" in the BODY.
To contact the list-owner, send email to meetingpunks-admin at cryptorights.org.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks list, look at the mail headers, find
which of the servers sent you the message, and send mail to
cypherpunks-request at that server saying "help".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ben at algroup.co.uk  Wed Sep  6 10:15:58 2000
From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:15:58 +0100
Subject: RSA Security releases RSA algoritm into public domain twoweeks 
 early. [cpunk]
References: <3.0.5.32.20000906093632.009fe370@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <39B67BCE.B352A02B@algroup.co.uk>

Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> When will we see the first RSAREF-compatible public-domain code?
> 
> [There already is a European developed RSAREF API replacement. Now it
> is legal for U.S. use. --Perry]

http://www.openssl.org/

Cheers,

Ben.

--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html

Coming to ApacheCon Europe 2000? http://apachecon.com/




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep  6 15:25:29 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 18:25:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: new brit spybook simmering
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906074436.008b6a30@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906152404.008ae690@pop.sprynet.com>

At 11:36 AM 9/6/00 -0400, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:46 AM -0400 9/6/00, David Honig wrote:
>>Those brits really need a 1st amendment...
>>(and the _SUN_ needs to buy a clue about physical security)
>>..good hype for Random House though..
>>
>>http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12986507
>>
>
>Firstly, there is nothing in the article suggesting that the "Sun" is 
>acting under orders from the British government. In fact, the quotes 
>imply otherwise.
>

Sure.  Its not censorship (yet).

But what kind of environment suffers a publisher who won't publish? 

Information is leaked, at some risk, so that it can be broadcast.
Sure, this is a private action, but when someone gives you a treasure
you don't hide from it.  You don't ask the queen how far to bend over.

Maybe I'm spoiled on cryptome.  Maybe I'm a boorish 'Merikan
Bill-of-Rights-fetishist who doesn't sympathize with Germans burning CDs,
France threatening Yahoo, the UK rubber hosing passwords.   Who finds the
SUN's begging for a leash abhorrent.  So sue me.











  








From insightbook at excite.com  Wed Sep  6 16:11:03 2000
From: insightbook at excite.com (insightbook at excite.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 19:11:03 -0400
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200009062258.PAA24454@sirius.infonex.com>


Dear Friend,

Please sit down because the secret Im about to reveal to 
you will make you light headed-

Would you like to know how to turn $1.00 into $2,500.00 
time after time with virtually no effort I CAN SHOW YOU 
HOW!

If you want to change your lives circumstances fast, be able 
to afford all the good things in life and want your bank account 
to explode with CASH then this program is for you: PLEASE 
READ ON.

Being a 25yr practicing Real Estate Broker I discovered after 
retiring a closely guarded secret so phenomenal that I must 
share it with you!

This Real Estate loophole allows the average person to start 
and operate a Real Estate business without a license or money 
and make $2,500.00 to $25,000.00 per deal.  The best part of 
this program is that you get to keep all of the money.  You dont 
have to split your profits with another Real Estate Agent or 
Broker.

Here is some of what you will learn in this program HOW TO 
SELL AND CONTROL REAL ESTATE WITHOUT A LICENSE OR 
MONEY.

YOU WILL:

Learn how to sell Real Estate legally without a license 
anywhere in the USA!

Learn how to make $2,500.00 to $25,00.00 with only $1.00 
invested NOW THATS REAL LEVERAGE!

Learn how to control $1,000,000 in Real Estate for only 
$100.00!

Learn how to control your deals from start to finish!

Learn how to create ownership rights in Real Estate without 
having to make Mortgage tax or insurance payments!

Learn how to live in your home for free!

Learn how to access a mortgage with 3% interest without 
a credit check or closing fees!

Learn how to access Mortgage Lenders who loan money to 
almost anyone who has a job regardless of past credit 
problems!

Learn how to sell your properties for full price every time by 
using Sub-Prime Lenders and make more money than you ever 
thought possible just by filling out one little piece of paper!

TO ORDER: "HOW TO SELL AND CONTROL REAL ESTATE 
WITHOUT A LICENSE OR MONEY" FOR ONLY $39.00-S&H included!

Call Now! 1-602-752-2424



	
***************



this is a one time mailer
hit reply to get off this world info list
       





From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com  Wed Sep  6 16:22:01 2000
From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 19:22:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: $ 325 USD for you
Message-ID: <200009062318.QAA25612@toad.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 5804 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Wed Sep  6 18:08:07 2000
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:08:07 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: <39B6B77A.3CFD6ED2@cyberspace.org>
References: <200009052355.UAA27827@poseidon.inf.ufsc.br>
 <39B6B77A.3CFD6ED2@cyberspace.org>
Message-ID: 

At 17:30 -0400 9/6/00, juzam wrote:
>according to applied cryptography, these permutaions do not effect the
>security of the algorithm, but i'm not sure about the purpose.

As I recall the basic purpose was to make it slow in software meaning 
that software cracking apps were/are at a severe disadvantage vs. 
hardware implementations.  It would be interesting to see how much 
longer that extended DES's effective lifetime.   I would consider the 
initial permutations to be in the same category as Blowfish's (and 
derivative algorithm's) time consuming key expansion phase- a neat 
"trick" that does not improve theoretical security but significantly 
increases the difficulty of real world attacks.
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From EPKuzas at webtv.net  Wed Sep  6 19:01:32 2000
From: EPKuzas at webtv.net (Edward Kuzas)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:01:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Mind altering drugs
Message-ID: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
knowing?




From measl at mfn.org  Wed Sep  6 20:00:41 2000
From: measl at mfn.org (Missouri FreeNet Administration)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:00:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
In-Reply-To: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Edward Kuzas wrote:

:Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
:knowing?

Assuming the molecular structure of the drug in question is sufficiently
aligned with the great harmonic convergence, it may be possible to
transmit it to an unsuspecting target via electomagnetic waves - for
instance, through a Webtv perhaps...

Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
sysadmin at mfn.org

--
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...
--------------------------------------------------------------------





From bear at sonic.net  Wed Sep  6 22:12:29 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:12:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
In-Reply-To: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: 





On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, Edward Kuzas wrote:

>Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
>knowing?

Yes. Some types of things can get into your clothes and transport 
across the skin barrier every time you put on a particular shirt 
There was a famous case involving PCP where this guy kept freaking 
out, for months, every time he put on a particular shirt.  The stuff 
doesn't wash out apparently.

Then, of course, there are intentional methods -- ever eaten a 
brownie when you hadn't been there to see it baked?  Ever had 
lunch with someone who was wearing a ring? Etc. 

				Bear




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep  6 19:22:53 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:22:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
References: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <39B6FBE6.E8F5175@acmenet.net>

Edward Kuzas wrote:
> 
> Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
> knowing?

Well, your father must have used _something_.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Wed Sep  6 19:26:14 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:26:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
In-Reply-To: EPKuzas@webtv.net's message of "Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:07:25 -0400"
References: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <841yyxj5un.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

EPKuzas at webtv.net (Edward Kuzas) writes:

> Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
> knowing?

Of course. What a silly question. How else can we explain you?





From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep  6 19:51:17 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:51:17 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39B6B77A.3CFD6ED2@cyberspace.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000906194734.00808100@pop.sprynet.com>

At 09:08 PM 9/6/00 -0400, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>initial permutations to be in the same category as Blowfish's (and 
>derivative algorithm's) time consuming key expansion phase- a neat 
>"trick" that does not improve theoretical security but significantly 
>increases the difficulty of real world attacks.

They do an *excellent* job of that but hamper key agility, 
unless you do something like page state.













  








From liveupdate at reply.intevo.com  Wed Sep  6 23:24:20 2000
From: liveupdate at reply.intevo.com (LiveUpdate News)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:24:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Crescendo News - September 2000
Message-ID: <200009070624.XAA04232@toad.com>

Dear Crescendo User,

CRESCENDO INTERNET MUSIC NEWS
September 2000

With its fresh crisp air, autumn in New England is a season 
for change.  So it seems appropriate that we just released a 
new version of Crescendo!  In this newsletter, you'll hear 
about Crescendo version 5.1, our featured artist "Coppertree", 
and much more.  Read on!

Contents:
   * Crescendo 5.1 Released
   * Featured artist: "Coppertree"
   * Featured Crescendo Site
   * How to Subscribe / Unsubscribe

---------------------------------------------------------------

MUSICPLAYER.COM FEATURES FREE MUSIC COMMUNITY CLASSIFIEDS
Find other musicians, post free band info, post wanted advertisements,
search by zip code for other artist in your area. Check it out.

CLICK HERE
http://url.intevo.com/U1-3001-1-1-12-528151-A60494

Be A Player at MusicPlayer.com

---------------------------------------------------------------

Crescendo Version 5.1 Released
http://url.intevo.com/U1-3001-1-1-9-528151-A63578

Thanks to all of the valuable feedback we have received from 
you, we are pleased to announce that version 5.1 of Crescendo, 
Crescendo PLUS, and Crescendo MAX is now available.  Version 5.1 
includes new features such as the ability to save your MP3 music 
directly to a Creative Nomad player.  In addition to these new 
features, we have worked diligently to make sure that any 
problems you might have experienced in previous versions of 
Crescendo have been corrected.

For the ultimate online music experience, be sure to check out 
Crescendo MAX 5.1.  Now only $9.95, Crescendo MAX delivers both 
streaming MIDI and MP3 from any web site!  You'll also benefit 
from LiveSynth PLUS, the built-in software-based wavetable 
synthesizer, which includes top-notch instrument sounds from one 
of the best sound designers in the world.  The low $9.95 price 
even includes free upgrades for a full year!

Upgrade to the free Crescendo basic player or Crescendo MAX 5.1 
today, and hear why thousands of web sites are now "Best Heard 
with Crescendo!"

---------------------------------------------------------------

Featured artist: "Coppertree"
http://url.intevo.com/U1-3001-1-1-10-528151-A60480

Coppertree has been steadily gaining fans and accolades all over 
New England with their debut release "Change". Now with their 
new release "Left of Somewhere", the radio-friendly anthem 
makers are being touted as the next big thing to emerge from the 
hotbed known as the Merrimack Valley. Since their 1997 debut, 
Coppertree has carved a niche for themselves as not only one of 
the catchiest bands in the Boston scene, but also as one of the 
most dynamic, as anybody who's caught one of their explosive 
performances can attest. Check out Coppertree's hot single 
"Image Makers" in the Crescendo 5 showcase!

---------------------------------------------------------------

Featured Crescendo Site
http://url.intevo.com/U1-3001-1-1-11-528151-A60481

"A Passion for Jazz", our latest addition to the ever-growing 
list of Featured Crescendo Sites, is a unique site for anyone 
who enjoys great jazz music. You'll find a huge collection of 
well-performed Jazz favorites, learn about the history of jazz, 
and use the free music teacher locator service to find someone 
in your area to teach you more about this unique, creative 
American art form.

When you're looking for good MIDI and/or MP3 sites to visit, 
be sure to check out our ever-growing list of Crescendo 
CoolSites. If your site is "Best Heard with Crescendo" and you 
would like to be considered for the Featured Crescendo Site 
award, send your URL to us at coolsite at liveupdate.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Send us your feedback!

Have you ever wondered how we dream up the features that make 
Crescendo the most popular MIDI and MP3 plug-in on the 'net?  
There's really no magic to it, in fact we won't even take 
credit for it.  Most of the extremely cool features found in 
Crescendo today have been submitted to us over the years by 
highly trained experts in the field, namely people like YOU!  
What would you like to see in the next version of Crescendo? 
Send your brainstorms to us at feedback at liveupdate.com - no 
idea is too big or too small.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you wish to subscribe to Crescendo News, click the link below
to send a request. It is not necessary to fill in any information, 
just send a blank e-mail and your request will be processed.

mailto:enroll at reply.intevo.com?Subject=Subscribe%20Me

To update your e-mail address, click the link below. It is not
necessary to fill in any information, just send a blank e-mail
and your request will be processed.

mailto:change at reply.intevo.com?Subject=cypherpunks at toad.com

If you have received this email in error and wish to unsubscribe,
click the link below.

http://remove.intevo.com/I1-3001-1-1-528151-A62791
 
Copyright (c) 2000 LiveUpdate, All Rights Reserved




From jamesd at echeque.com  Wed Sep  6 23:38:25 2000
From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:38:25 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: 'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no
  safeguards
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000906233251.024b6c10@shell11.ba.best.com>

     --
At 10:19 AM 9/7/2000 +1100, Julian Assange wrote:
 > 'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no safeguards
 >
 > [...]
 >
 > "Now, in a stunning overnight turnaround, the ALP has accepted a new
 > government amendment that would allow troops to be used against
 > civilians when there is 'serious damage to property'.

In recent years US troops have been trained with some namby pamby stuff 
about minimizing civilian casualties.  Australian troops are not trained 
like that. They are trained that their first priority is to blow the enemy 
away as fast as possible, their second priority is to stay alive in order 
to blow away more enemy in future, and if they have any time and energy 
left over after the first two priorities, they might think about minimizing 
damage to civilians caught in the middle.

While that is sound training for war, it is rather poor training for 
keeping order in peacetime.

It is interesting that this draconian legislation follows rapidly upon 
draconian anti gun legislation.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      pMuYV7Kw9wKKgpcahfMHaGITuH/HCY9NMn9G40Ku
      4mXcjiflvefOahXTmpWXKYwk+kLU5TBASVidytaZL




From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Wed Sep  6 17:09:14 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: 7 Sep 2000 00:09:14 -0000
Subject: CDR: tight group from nowhere
Message-ID: 

DoS attacks before internet worked for Catalonians:

http://www.zolatimes.com/V4.36/the_day.html

Internet does give some advantage:

Sync message goes out with the time (www, usenet, maillists).
Action takes place in the meatspace (we flush toilets and turn
on hemp lights at the right moments.)

There is NO WAY to trace this back to the distributed agents -
that is, unless your neighbour reports unusual light activity :-)

Something similar happened some 7-8 yrs back in the Bay Area
where drivers (on 101, I think) did 55mph in sync in all
lanes, creating chaos.

We are far too stuck to internet as communication medium.

Flushing the shit can also deliver the message,






From all at biosys.net  Wed Sep  6 21:45:04 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 00:45:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

First, I gotta say.. only been back on the list a day or two and the Signal 
to Noise seems to have gotten nearly out of hand.. I don't know what 
cypherpunks has to do with trying to listen in on cordless phone calls, or 
how to give someone drugs.. but anyway.. something on topic.. :)

I wrote a UDP based encrypted chat program a while back.. it worked well, 
but I saw the following drawbacks..

1) It used secret keys that had to be shared beforehand through a prior 
secure channel.
2) Being UDP based, I was forced to operate the ciphers in ECB instead of 
CBC mode, just in case any of the packets got lost.

To make the application more robust, I have started rewriting it to use TCP 
instead.  It is still a peer-peer network, requiring no dedicated servers.. 
while this increases overhead somewhat, I think it's worth it to keep the 
system from relying on one particular server, or a group of them.  You 
simply add the IP of the people you want to receive your messages to your 
list.  If someone adds you, when you receive a message from them, it adds 
them to your list automatically.  Downside is currently that everyone must 
maintain an active TCP connection to everyone else.. but it's not meant to 
be a replacement for IRC or anything like that, just a secure way to chat 
and transfer other data such as files or voice.

I have also decided to get rid of the key sharing mechanism, and instead 
utilize D/H to generate a KEK, then transfer a 4096bit data block from the 
initiating client to the serving client (I'll refer to them as C/S where 
their role is appropriate, but keep in mind there is no real "server".. 
much like gnutella or similar systems, every client is a server, and every 
server a client.) to serve as a master key.  The first N bits are used 
depending on which cipher is negotiated/selected, up to the max supported 
by my implementation of each cipher.

Now, my main question about D/H is quite simple.. what is considered a 
"good" size for the prime and primitive used, in bits?  Obviously something 
somewhat large, but how large is large enough?  64bits?  Less or more?  I 
can't find much information on this anywhere, and my copy of Applied 
Cryptography (2nd ed.) while covering D/H in detail, doesn't even mention this.

An aside is that I'm writing the application in Delphi 5, and the maximum 
native supported integer sizes are 32bit unsigned, and 64bit signed.. I've 
been writing a math library of my own in assembler that at compile time 
will allow you to specify the maximum bitsize you want it to support, but 
this is proving to be a mind-numbing task.. ;)  If anyone is familiar with 
Delphi and has any libraries like this already, I'd much appreciate hearing 
about them.. or even some a web resource or paper Real Book (tm) resource 
that explains in abstract terms how to go about something like this would 
be appreciated.

I had more to write.. but I'm exhausted.. fun crypting to everyone.. ;)


- -------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
- -Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQA/AwUBObcdUGvp1znMxX/XEQJ5RgCg0Z373RKrBi7fdVYgpUkulwmWcgUAoOia
FifEVZ1Wp7PPH/XwBMeMCsID
=kn5M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Sep  6 22:21:51 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 01:21:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Asymmetric wrote:

> Now, my main question about D/H is quite simple.. what is considered a 
> "good" size for the prime and primitive used, in bits?  Obviously something 
> somewhat large, but how large is large enough?  64bits?  Less or more?  I 
> can't find much information on this anywhere, and my copy of Applied 
> Cryptography (2nd ed.) while covering D/H in detail, doesn't even mention this.

The modulus should be rather large -- something like 512 or 1024 bits.
With 64 bits, someone can use Pollard's method to find discrete logs in
roughly 2^32 trials, which is Bad. Taking discrete logs for larger primes
requires a variant of the number field sieve; the largest announced
modulus for which I'm aware of this being done is 300-400 bits, but it
hasn't received as much attention as factoring. 

I think www.cryptosavvy.com has some key length recommendations. You might
also check the April RSA Data Security Bulletin for Bob Silverman's
dispute of their model. The storage problem he mentions is actually worse
for discrete logs; while the vectors involved in the final step of
factoring are 0-1, the vectors in the final stage of discrete log finding
have full-size group elements and are therefore harder to store and
manipulate.

The size of the generator is a different issue. I don't see any reason why
a small size generator would hurt...but I haven't thought about it very
much. Note that you need the factors of p-1 in order to test if
something's a generator, which means you may want to look into Maurer or
Mihailescu's methods for prime generation. (Mihailescu has a paper on
the subject aimed at implementors at 
http://www.inf.ethz.ch/~mihailes/papers/primgen.ps )

> Delphi and has any libraries like this already, I'd much appreciate hearing 
> about them.. or even some a web resource or paper Real Book (tm) resource 
> that explains in abstract terms how to go about something like this would 
> be appreciated.

It was after my time, but the AP Computer Science curriculum now has a
BigInteger library as its "case study." :-)

A web search turned up 
http://www.efg2.com/lab/library/Delphi/MathFunctions/Cryptography.htm

which has, among other things, a Pascal header for the Gnu MP library. 

-David




From all at biosys.net  Wed Sep  6 22:39:28 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 01:39:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907012824.00af9a50@mail.megapathdsl.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 01:21 09/07/2000 -0400, dmolnar wrote:


>The modulus should be rather large -- something like 512 or 1024 bits.
>With 64 bits, someone can use Pollard's method to find discrete logs in
>roughly 2^32 trials, which is Bad. Taking discrete logs for larger primes
>requires a variant of the number field sieve; the largest announced
>modulus for which I'm aware of this being done is 300-400 bits, but it
>hasn't received as much attention as factoring.

I figured it would be something of that nature.. hence the math library I 
was working on.. :)


>I think www.cryptosavvy.com has some key length recommendations. You might

Thanks for the link...

>The size of the generator is a different issue. I don't see any reason why
>a small size generator would hurt...but I haven't thought about it very
>much. Note that you need the factors of p-1 in order to test if
>something's a generator, which means you may want to look into Maurer or
>Mihailescu's methods for prime generation. (Mihailescu has a paper on
>the subject aimed at implementors at
>http://www.inf.ethz.ch/~mihailes/papers/primgen.ps )

Ah.. I have implemented a sieve of eros..whatever his name is.. ;)  for 
finding smaller primes.. it runs very fast, the old rules don't apply so 
much anymore, memory footprint being more a concern then speed I've noticed 
so far.. moving the found primes into a sparse array as you find them and 
then reusing the memory is one way around that.. even my quickly written 
implementation takes negligible time to find all the primes within 16 
bits.. but I've been looking at rabin-miller and some other methods as 
well.  I'll take a look at that link, thanks.. reason again for the math 
library.. my stuff (obviously) falls apart > 32bits since my library for 
handling larger numbers is unfinished.


>It was after my time, but the AP Computer Science curriculum now has a
>BigInteger library as its "case study." :-)
>
>A web search turned up
>http://www.efg2.com/lab/library/Delphi/MathFunctions/Cryptography.htm
>
>which has, among other things, a Pascal header for the Gnu MP library.

Ah cool.. I've heard very good things about GMP and had been thinking about 
ways to implement it.. could solve all my problems in one fell swoop. :)  I 
(for reasons that should be obvious) felt that writing the routines myself 
(with extensive testing) would be preferable, so I could avoid licensing 
issues as well as bugs/backdoors, but I'll look into this..  Thanks for the 
quick response.. the application will of course be available to anyone who 
wants it once finished.. and once Borland finishes Kylix, should compile 
nicely on the various x86 *nixes out there..


- -------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
- -Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQA/AwUBObcqEGvp1znMxX/XEQLaYQCgxBxiiYTY2OHcVgso4Iaqy7PYucAAniM9
YL2M9tDag44LaILC6mChDmyf
=TL/e
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu  Wed Sep  6 23:07:37 2000
From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 02:07:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907012824.00af9a50@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Asymmetric wrote:

> >Mihailescu's methods for prime generation. (Mihailescu has a paper on
> >the subject aimed at implementors at
> >http://www.inf.ethz.ch/~mihailes/papers/primgen.ps )
> 
> Ah.. I have implemented a sieve of eros..whatever his name is.. ;)  for 

Erastothenes, I think. 
I don't know what a sieve of eros is. I think I'd like to try one
sometime. :>

> finding smaller primes.. it runs very fast, the old rules don't apply so 
> much anymore, memory footprint being more a concern then speed I've noticed 
> so far.. moving the found primes into a sparse array as you find them and 
> then reusing the memory is one way around that.. even my quickly written 
> implementation takes negligible time to find all the primes within 16 
> bits.. 

Right - I think you may find that this slows down a bit at the 500-bit
range. Still, there are supposed to be ways to use sieving in conjunction
with random search to speed up prime generation. 

>but I've been looking at rabin-miller and some other methods as 
> well.  I'll take a look at that link, thanks.. reason again for the math 
> library.. my stuff (obviously) falls apart > 32bits since my library for 
> handling larger numbers is unfinished.

Once  you have the primitives, Rabin-Miller is straightforward to
implement from the Handbook of Applied Cryptograpy. I was surprised at how
easy it was...

Another nice trick -- compute the product of the first 1000 primes or so.
Take the GCD of this product and a candidate number. Eliminates candidates
with small prime factors and often faster than trial division.  

> (for reasons that should be obvious) felt that writing the routines myself 
> (with extensive testing) would be preferable, so I could avoid licensing 
> issues as well as bugs/backdoors, but I'll look into this..  Thanks for the 

Backdoors are your responsibility with GMP, so no worries, right. :). It
is GPL'd, though, so be careful. 

> quick response.. the application will of course be available to anyone who 
> wants it once finished.. and once Borland finishes Kylix, should compile 
> nicely on the various x86 *nixes out there..

Looking forward to it. 

-David




From Dave_Janz9909 at indiatimes.com  Wed Sep  6 23:09:16 2000
From: Dave_Janz9909 at indiatimes.com (Dave_Janz9909 at indiatimes.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 02:09:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Information You Requested
Message-ID: 


Congratulations! On taking a beginning step
in Changing your life.

Hi, my name is Dave. You were referred to me as someone who
was ready for a financial CHANGE, so let me get to the point.
I assure you your time will not be wasted.

Do you ever wonder how the rich keep getting richer? Do you 
ever wonder if THEY pay taxes or NOT? Where do they keep
their money? How do they invest? 

Well, I can show you a way to learn and impliment all the 
above, The Secrets of the Ultra Wealthy. Even better, I will 
also show you how to make $150,000+ from Home with 
your telephone and computer.

Are you Serious about making $2500 +per week with a 
simple system where the customer contacts you and you 
do absolutely NO selling?

If You can follow simple, step-by-step instructions and put
forth the effort to make this a reality Starting Immediately,
then we need to talk.

It's in my best interest to train you for success.  In fact, I'm so
sure that I can do so, I'm willing to put my money where 
my mouth is! I will provide you with complete Professional
Training and Advertising Assistance to put you immediately 
on the road to success.

There's no experience necessary.. However you must have two qualities:
1) Moderate People Skills
2) A Burning Desire for a Personal and Financial Change

Take a moment to take the next step by calling me at my 
Home Office and I will provide you with further information.


1-800-318-8477
24 Hrs/ 7 Days


I Wish You Great Prosperity!
Dave



"Profits are better than wages. Wages make you a living;
Profits make you a fortune"
									- Jim Rohn

To be removed send email to hulorg at yahoo.com





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Wed Sep  6 17:25:01 2000
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 02:25:01 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: 'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no safeguards
Message-ID: <204df589a3daa76d17b4ef5b7c224789@remailer.privacy.at>

On 07 Sep 2000, Julian Assange wrote:

> "The bill will now pass into law with no sunset clause, and no real
> safeguard that would prevent troops being used on strikers and peaceful
> protestors

Unrestricted, unregulated private ownership of firearms is the only
effective "safeguard."

This is a textbook example of why the right of the shee^H^H^H^H citizenry
to keep and bear arms is crucial to the maintenance of a free society.




From newlists at postmark.net  Thu Sep  7 03:08:04 2000
From: newlists at postmark.net (newlists at postmark.net)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 03:08:04
Subject: CDR: Make Your Advertising Easy! Fresh Opp-Seek Lists.. New list 9-06-2000!
Message-ID: <200009070437.VAA18336@cyberpass.net>


EXPLODE YOUR SALES VIRTUALLY OVERNIGHT!
New Lower Prices This Mailing Only!

Do you want more sales, hits, sign-ups and cash?
Would you like to expand your on-line marketing campaign??

You do???

O.K. - we can do that for you!!! 

How you ask?

The answer is simple! You need MAXIMUM TARGETED EXPOSURE!!

You now have the opportunity to obtain some of the best
targeted e-mail lists of business opportunity seekers
available on the internet today. These people are just
waiting for your e-mail messages! Why waste time by
contacting people that are just going to hit the delete
key?  You need to reach an audience that wants to see 
your message!  We have that audience for you!


************ NEW FRESH LIST AS OF 9-06-2000 **************

To learn more read on or click 

http://www.virtue.nu/powerhour/ 
http://www.megspace.com/business/powerhour/
http://www.dazzled.com/powerhour/ 
http://www.stas.net/5/powerhour/
http://www.afreehome.com/powerhour/ 


(We Will Be Removing Websites Soon To Ensure that
our Lists are Not Over Used, So Order Quickly!!!!!)

*************************************************************

INFO ABOUT OUR TARGETED LISTS

* We've mailed to these lists to ensure recipients are   
receptive  
* All undeliverables and removes have been removed to 
  date
* Many people on the lists have asked to be included
* These lists are targeted towards business opportunity
  seekers, 
* Our lists will never have any duplicated e-mail 
  addresses
* These lists are at least 93% deliverable.
 
For A Short Time, Our Discounted List Prices Are As Follows:

(All e-mail addresses are of business opportunity seekers)

10,000 - $20.00
25,000 - $25.00
50,000 - $50.00
100,000 - $65.00

BEST DEAL - SAVE OVER $360.00!  

200,000 $99.00 
 

Priceless Remove & Filter Lists for Low Costs!
 
We are currently selling our own personal remove list
for $50.00 This list consists of over 140,000 removes, 
flames, anti-spammers, and undeliverables that we have
personally collected.  We are also offering a list of 
over 100 filters for $10.00.  These are domains that have
asked to be removed, dangerous keywords that may be in 
your e-mail addresses, as well as other symbols and 
words that will seriously destroy your e-mail lists. All
lists you purchased here are already filtered by these
lists. Only purchase, if you have other lists.
__________________________________________________
 
SO, ARE YOU READY TO EXPLODE YOUR SALES AND START MAKING
THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT YOU DESERVE?  IF SO, THEN GO TO 
ONE OF THE FOLLOWING SITES AND GET STARTED ON YOUR NEW
MARKETING CAMPAIGN TODAY!

      
http://www.virtue.nu/powerhour/ 
http://www.megspace.com/business/powerhour/
http://www.dazzled.com/powerhour/ 
http://www.stas.net/5/powerhour/
http://www.afreehome.com/powerhour/



***** We Will Be Removing Websites To Ensure that our
      Lists are Not Over used So Order Quickly *****

You can also copy and paste these URLs into
your browser:

HERE, or
HERE, 
or 
HERE, or    
HERE, or
HERE



*********************************************************
You are receiving this letter because you posted to on of
our FFA pages, or Free Classified sites, which added you
to one of our lists. We run upwards of 50 sites, any of
which may have added you to our list. If you do not 
remember posting it may be because you used an Automated 
FFA or Classified Ad Posting program or website.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From all at biosys.net  Thu Sep  7 01:31:12 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 04:31:12 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907012824.00af9a50@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907041059.00b0a4e0@mail.megapathdsl.net>


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 02:07 09/07/2000 -0400, dmolnar wrote:

>Erastothenes, I think.
>I don't know what a sieve of eros is. I think I'd like to try one
>sometime. :>

Hah yeah that spelling looks right.. it's really pretty elegant, and was 
considered at the time of the writing of AC 2nd ed. to be faster for 
numbers of 100 digits or less.. since a base-10 digit is roughly 3.5 bits, 
that should be faster than say the general number sieve for numbers up to 
about 350 bits.

It works by first making an array of bits, all set to true, that represent 
all the numbers from 2 - X, where X is the last number you want to test for 
primeness.  You loop through the array from begining to end.. for each bit 
you find set, you set all multiples of that number up to X off.  This 
results in every multiple of every prime (which is to say, every composite 
number) being marked "false" in the array.  When finished, you have an 
array of bits where an on bit represents a prime.  The storage issue 
results because I currently store an array of bytes instead of an array of 
bits.. so to test the first ~ 16 million numbers (24 bits) requires about 
16 meg of storage.  That would drop to 2 meg if I rewrote it to be a 
bit-array, which I intend to do.. and it would only take N bytes of memory 
if instead implemented as a sparse array of bytes, where N = the number of 
primes from start to finish of your range.


>Right - I think you may find that this slows down a bit at the 500-bit
>range. Still, there are supposed to be ways to use sieving in conjunction
>with random search to speed up prime generation.

Probably would slow down some around 512bits.. which should represent 
numbers about 147 base-10 digits.


>Once  you have the primitives, Rabin-Miller is straightforward to
>implement from the Handbook of Applied Cryptograpy. I was surprised at how
>easy it was...

I expect it'll be easier when I look at it again.. it still looks a bit 
messy though.  AC 2nd ed describes rabin-miller as follows, p260, pp2..

(p = prime)

1. Calculate b, where b is the number of times that 2 divides into p - 1.
2. Calculate m, such that p = 1 + 2^b * m.
3. Choose a random number "a" such that "a" is less than "p".
4. Set j = 0 and set z = a^m mod p.
5. if z = 1, or z = p - 1, then p passes and may be prime.
6. if j > 0 and z = 1, then p is not prime.
7. set j = j + 1.  If j < b and z != p - 1, set z = z^2 mod p, and go back 
to 6.  If z = p - 1, then p passes the test and may be prime.
8. If j = b, and z != p - 1, then p is not prime.

I think I need to just be a bit less tired before I can parse that 
efficiently into code.. :)


>Another nice trick -- compute the product of the first 1000 primes or so.
>Take the GCD of this product and a candidate number. Eliminates candidates
>with small prime factors and often faster than trial division.

Do you mean calculate each product of two of the first 1000 primes?  (i.e. 
2*3, 2*5, 2*7... 5*7...) etc? for each possible pair?


>Backdoors are your responsibility with GMP, so no worries, right. :). It
>is GPL'd, though, so be careful.

Yeah.. hadn't decided if I was going to open source it or not.. but I 
suppose putting it under the GPL myself does prevent anyone else from 
making money off my work.. ;)  I'm not looking to make any money from this 
product, but I certainly don't want anyone else making money off my hard 
work either.  I need to read the GPL or GLPL closely.. whichever GMP is under.


>Looking forward to it.

Cool.. thanks for the help and links again.. tried to sleep for the past 
two or three hours, couldn't.. I'm back up and at it. ;)


- -------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
- -Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQA/AwUBObdSUGvp1znMxX/XEQKL+wCghGPE649K/LKbWFqyiVU9EeRDVywAn2JA
LAtFdc1JFEEo4YiRcMzrE8L+
=IMRU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From webmaster at troppolotto.com  Wed Sep  6 22:26:11 2000
From: webmaster at troppolotto.com (TroppoLotto)
Date: 7 Sep 2000 05:26:11 -0000
Subject: CDR: This might be the day...
Message-ID: <20000907052611.34102.qmail@qm-3.troppolotto.com>

Aloha Fgjfgj,

http://www.troppolotto.com/clickthrough.php3?rid=181
THIS MIGHT BE THE DAY YOU BECOME A MILLIONAIRE!

**********************************************************
In the next few seconds you could become $100,000 richer!
Start playing Scratch-4-Cash today and you could instantly
win hundreds of cash prizes, including the grand prize of
$100,000. It's FUN, it's FREE and you can play everyday.
http://www.webstakes.com/redirects/scratch4cash/8355
**********************************************************

TroppoLotto keeps growing and growing! Not only is TroppoLotto one of the
most visited sites on the Internet with millions of visitors each week,
we also have the most loyal members on the Internet and we owe
it all to you! Your loyalty means a lot to us, as our goal has always been
to entertain you and make you RICH!

A GIGANTIC THANK YOU from the TroppoLotto crew.  We are working hard to
bring you more and more fun and more and more MONEY, always for FREE!

THIS MIGHT BE THE DAY YOU BECOME A MILLIONAIRE! Play now:
http://www.troppolotto.com/clickthrough.php3?rid=181

The TroppoLotto Crew

Brought to you by http://www.trancos.com
1999-2000 Trancos, Inc. All Rights Reserved.




From allyn at well.com  Thu Sep  7 06:11:42 2000
From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:11:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration 9/11 7:30pm SFO Hyatt
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000906172950.00795830@idiom.com>
Message-ID: 


Is there anything planned for up here in Seattle?

Mark





From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep  7 03:15:13 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:15:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com> 
Message-ID: <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
> You're missing a more important point: there is no correlation
> between who is using the service or product and who is paying the tax.
> 
> Taxing a computer used for video game playing, for example, when
> absolutely no "piracy" is happening from that computer. An overly
> wide net.
> 
> Governments like this sort of thing, however. Tax everyone, then
> spend the revenues as they wish.

not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
re-distributes these things.

the system has been the subject of criticism often, but works
surprisingly well. that might be because the article doesn't mention the
OTHER side of it. for example, paying a fixed sum to GEMA enables you to
play music in public (say, as a shop owner in your shop) without having
to deal with the individual artists and labels for "broadcasting
rights". it greatly simplifies things for small shops.





From mdpopescu at geocities.com  Thu Sep  7 06:34:54 2000
From: mdpopescu at geocities.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:34:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <008901c018d0$c6020820$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>



From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Thu Sep  7 09:36:00 2000
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:36 AM
Subject: why get a loan
Message-ID: 


        Dear Friend:

        AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:

      ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your
        home  for an  investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars  expense one
        time''

        THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET!
       ===============================================

       BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !!

       Before you say ''Bull'' , please read the following. This is the
       letter you have  been  hearing about on the news lately. Due to the
       popularity of this letter on the internet, a national  weekly news
       program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of
       this program described below , to see if it really can make people
       money.

       The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal.
       Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely
       NO.  Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people
       can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make
       some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''.

        DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT 
        THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING 
        BETTER THAN EVER.

        This is what one had to say:

       ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached
         many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad
         I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return
         for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I
         received total $ 610,470.00 in  21 weeks, with money still 
         coming in''.
                                        Pam Hedland,  Fort Lee, New Jersey.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

                             Here is another testimonial:

        ''This program has been around for a long time but I never
         believed in it. But one day when I received this again in
         the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the
         simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money
         started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but
         the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00.
         So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program,I
         have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again.
         The key to success in this program is to follow the simple
         steps and NOT  change anything .''

                          More testimonials later but first,

       ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE *******

       $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
            If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months
            easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ
            IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!!
       $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

       FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR
       FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED!

                                   INSTRUCTIONS:

   **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.

   **** For each report, send $5  CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE
            REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and  YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS
            to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report.
            MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE
            TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems.

   **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5
            reports.  You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer 
            and resell them.  YOUR TOTAL COST $5  X 5 = $25.00.

   **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5
            reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer
            so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people
            who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these
            reports and keep it on your desk in case  something happen to your
            computer.

   ****.IMPORTANT -  DO NOT alter the names of the people who are
            listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in
            any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through
            6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you
            understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if 
            you change it.

            Remember, this  method has been tested, and if you alter, it
            will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names
            on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this 
            way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. 
            So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if 
            you do, it will not work for you.   Remember,  honesty reaps the reward!!!

            1.. After you have ordered  all 5 reports, take this advertisement
            and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This
            person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting
            their fortune.

            2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4  down TO REPORT # 5.

            3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4.

            4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.

            5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2

            6.... Insert  YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position.

     PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY !
     =========================================================

            Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save
            it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES.
            Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data.

            To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the
            5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable
            marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally,
            where to find thousands of free classified ads and  much more.

            There are 2 Primary methods to  get this venture going:

            METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY
           ============================================
            let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it
            goes, and we will assume You and  those involved send out only
            5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a
            0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just
            say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of
            thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each).

            Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails.
            With  a 0.2%  response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1.
            Those 10  people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail
            each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only
            0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded
            and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000
            e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response
            to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send 
            out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. 
            The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. 
            Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 
            50,000,000 (50 million)  e-mails.  The 0.2% response to that is 
            100,000 orders for Report # 5.

            THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million).

            Your total income in this example is:
            1..... $50         +
            2..... $500       +
            3..... $5,000    +
            4..... $50,000  +
            5..... $500,000  .........  Grand Total = $555,550.00

            NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE
            OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER
            HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF
            MONEY !

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE
            ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for
            a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th
            of those  people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are
            over 150 million people on the internet worldwide and counting.
            Believe me, many people will do just that, and more!

         METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET
         ===================================================
            Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are
            hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads
            on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly
            suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go
            along.

            For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report
            they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all
            orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your
            name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until
            they  receive the report.

        _____________________      AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________

         ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY.

         Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report.
         Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping
         it  in atleast 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper,
         Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR
         E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address.


PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW :
==============================================

REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net''
Order Report # 1 from:

James L Kenny
1621 May Pl. N.E.
Canton, Ohio 44705-1783
U.S.A.

 __________________________________________________

REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net''
Order Report # 2 from :

Paul Bradley
1802 Red Canyon Rd.
Canon City, CO  81212
U.S.A. 

__________________________________________________

REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net''
Order Report # 3 from:

Al Andrade
18531 Mayall Street Unit-D
Northridge, CA 91324
U.S.A.

_________________________________________________

REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net''
Order Report # 4 from:

 Arnold Larsen
P.O. Box 17622
Sarasota, FL. 34276
U.S.A.
 
 
 ____________________________________________________

REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE''
Order Report # 5 from:

Alex Diamond
9903 Santa Monica Blvd;
Apt. # 405
Beverly Hills, Ca 90212
U.S.A.
         


	$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$

         Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

         If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2
         weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do.

         After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that
         you should  receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2.
         If you did not, continue  advertising or sending e-mails until
         you do.

         Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2,
         YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for
         you , and the cash will continue to roll in !

         THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER :  Every time your name is
         moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. 
         You can KEEP TRACK  of your PROGRESS by watching which
         report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE
         MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS  AND
         START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to
         the income you can generate from this business !!!
        ____________________________________________________

                  FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
                                                     PROGRAM:

          "You have just received information that can give you financial
            freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK  and  JUST A
            LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the
            next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined.

            Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change
            it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.
            Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you
            have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to
            #2...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may
            send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone
            of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential
            customers you will reach.

            So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information,
            materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO
            YOU NOW !

                      ************** MORE  TESTIMONIALS  ****************

            '' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago.
            I am an accountant with a major  U.S. Corporation and I 
            make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled
            to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the
            whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and
            percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody
            totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in
            with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to
            lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't
            work.  Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received
            50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a
            total of $ 147,200.00   all cash!  I was shocked. I have
            joined Jody in her ''hobby''.
                                                 Mitchell  Wolf,  M.D. ,
                                                 Chicago, Illinois

------------------------------------------------------------

            '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to
            make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that
            I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little
            that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at
            least get my  money back.

            I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box
            crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12
            weeks.  The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter
            where people live. There simply isn't a better investment
            with a faster return and so big''.
                                               Dan Sondstrom, Alberta,
                                                            Canada

-----------------------------------------------------------

            '' I had  received this program before. I deleted  it, but
            later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had
            no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait
            until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months
            passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this
            one! I made more than  $490,000 on my first try  and all the
            money came within  22 weeks''.
                                   Susan De Suza,
                                    New York, N.Y.

                       ----------------------------------------------------

            '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy
            money with little cost to you. I followed the simple
            instructions carefully and within 10 days the money
            started to come in.  My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 
            and by the end of third month my total cash count was 
            $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''.
                                               Fred Dellaca, Westport,
                                                          New Zealand

------------------------------------------------------------


        ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON
        YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !

=======================================================

If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the
Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade
Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.

////////////////////////////////////////////////
ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE
//////////////////////////////////////////////

This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301.
per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to
you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by
sending a reply to :   Sophie530 at email.com  with the word Remove in the
subject line. This message is not intended for residents in the State of
Washington, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our
technical ability.


                 --------  T  H  E        E  N   D  ---------
>
>
>
>
>












 




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Sep  7 07:06:12 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:06:12 -0400 
Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Permutations in DES
Message-ID: 

My understanding is that the initial permutation, (which essentially
writes the 64 bits of key in a 8 x 8 block by column and row,
then reads it out by row and column) was included to simplify
early DES chip hardware. It has no impact on the security of 
the algorithm. If you know what you are doing, it does not effect 
key agility in software implementations. 

Peter Trei


> ----------
> From: 	juzam[SMTP:juzam at cyberspace.org]
> Reply To: 	juzam
> Sent: 	Wednesday, September 06, 2000 5:30 PM
> To: 	cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com
> Subject: 	CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
> 
> according to applied cryptography, these permutaions do not effect the
> security of the algorithm, but i'm not sure about the purpose.
> 
> Augusto Jun Devegili wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I was just wondering... In DES, there's an Initial
> > Permutation (IP) on the plaintext, then 16 rounds, and
> > then the inverse permutation (IP^-1) of the result to
> > produce the ciphertext.
> >
> > How effective are these permutations? Do they really
> > add diffusion to the algorithm, considering that they
> > don't depend on the key?
> >
> > Someone told me that they are necessary to provide
> > reversibility to DES. Is this correct?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Devegili
> 
> --
> foo=====================
>    rim vilgalys
> 




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Sep  7 07:13:33 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:13:33 -0400 
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
Message-ID: 

	For brute force key search, the initial permution can effectively be
	factored out, and neither speeds nor impedes the search. This was
	done by all of the keysearch apps used in the RSA Symmetric DES
	Challenges.

	I (this was before I worked for RSA) also described an extremely
fast
	method to generate and iterate key schedules which was also widely
	used, reducing key schedule management from 90% of cpu to less
	than 10%.

	Peter Trei

> ----------
> From: 	Kevin Elliott[SMTP:k-elliott at wiu.edu]
> 
> At 17:30 -0400 9/6/00, juzam wrote:
> >according to applied cryptography, these permutaions do not effect the
> >security of the algorithm, but i'm not sure about the purpose.
> 
> As I recall the basic purpose was to make it slow in software meaning 
> that software cracking apps were/are at a severe disadvantage vs. 
> hardware implementations.  It would be interesting to see how much 
> longer that extended DES's effective lifetime.   I would consider the 
> initial permutations to be in the same category as Blowfish's (and 
> derivative algorithm's) time consuming key expansion phase- a neat 
> "trick" that does not improve theoretical security but significantly 
> increases the difficulty of real world attacks.
> -- 
> 
> Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
> 




From proff at iq.org  Wed Sep  6 16:19:28 2000
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: 07 Sep 2000 10:19:28 +1100
Subject: CDR: 'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no safeguards
Message-ID: 


Tuesday, 5 September 2000

New ALP Sell-Out Completes Capitulation
on Defence Amendment Bill

'Shoot to Kill Bill' set to pass the Senate with no safeguards

The ALP today completed its capitulation to the Government by accepting new
Government amendments to Defence Legislation Amendment (Aid to Civilian
Authorities) Bill, Greens Senator Bob Brown said today.

"The ALP has refused to accept Greens amendments that would guarantee troops
could never be called out against a peaceful protest or industrial dispute,"
Senator Brown said. 

"On top of that they have watered down their already weak amendments.
Previously the ALP amendment had said that once called out the troops could
not be used unless there was 'a direct and immediate threat of death or
serious injury'.  These words have been replaced by "reasonable likelihood
of death or serious injury".

"Now, in a stunning overnight turnaround, the ALP has accepted a new
government amendment that would allow troops to be used against civilians
when there is 'serious damage to property'.  This gives the government and
military free reign to call out the troops because in almost every situation
'serious damage to property' could be envisaged. 

"This is a backflip on sell-out on back-down. Labor has failed to defend a
century of law and convention in Australia which has prevented the Defence
forces from being involved in armed conflict with civilians.

"The bill will now pass into law with no sunset clause, and no real
safeguard that would prevent troops being used on strikers and peaceful
protestors

Further information: Ben Oquist 02 62773170 or 0419704095


----------------------------------------------
Ben Oquist
Australian Greens Senator Bob Brown
Parliament House, Canberra 2600
Australia
+61 2 62773170 ph
+61 2 62773185 fx
0419704095 mobile
http://www.greens.org.au/bobbrown




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Sep  7 07:21:29 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:21:29 -0400 
Subject: CDR: RE: RE: Re: Permutations in DES
Message-ID: 



> ----------
> From: 	Trei, Peter
> Reply To: 	Trei, Peter
> Sent: 	Thursday, September 07, 2000 10:06 AM
> To: 	cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com; 'juzam'
> Subject: 	CDR: RE: Re: Permutations in DES
> 
> My understanding is that the initial permutation, (which essentially
> writes the 64 bits of key in a 8 x 8 block by column and row,
                          ^ replace 'key' with 'data'. mea culpa  -pt
> then reads it out by row and column) was included to simplify
> early DES chip hardware. It has no impact on the security of 
> the algorithm. If you know what you are doing, it does not effect 
> key agility in software implementations. 
> 
> Peter Trei
> 




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Thu Sep  7 07:59:23 2000
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:59:23 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Mind altering drugs
In-Reply-To: <841yyxj5un.fsf@athena.dhis.org>; from marshall@athena.net.dhis.org on Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:26:14PM -0400
References: <6354-39B6F6FC-38@storefull-246.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <841yyxj5un.fsf@athena.dhis.org>
Message-ID: <20000907105904.G16946@ils.unc.edu>

On Wed, Sep 06, 2000 at 10:26:14PM -0400, David Marshall wrote:
> 
> EPKuzas at webtv.net (Edward Kuzas) writes:
> 
> > Can mind altering drugs be given to someone without - that person
> > knowing?
> 
> Of course. What a silly question. How else can we explain you?

In fact, most contemporary mind-altering drugs are distributed
through new media outlets, such as WebTV.

  -- Greg





From jburnes at savvis.net  Thu Sep  7 09:13:22 2000
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:13:22 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>  <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <00090711115800.26310@reality.eng.savvis.net>

On Thu, 07 Sep 2000, Tom Vogt wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
> >
> > Governments like this sort of thing, however. Tax everyone, then
> > spend the revenues as they wish.
>
> not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
> a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
> re-distributes these things.
>
> the system has been the subject of criticism often, but works
> surprisingly well. that might be because the article doesn't mention the
> OTHER side of it. for example, paying a fixed sum to GEMA enables you to
> play music in public (say, as a shop owner in your shop) without having
> to deal with the individual artists and labels for "broadcasting
> rights". it greatly simplifies things for small shops.

Thats no diffferent than BMI or ASCAP here in the states.  The
only difference is that here that is a completely private transaction.
No government involvement or interference necessary or desired.

Having the government make it a tax is a little too much like
fascism.  Correction, its exactly like fascism.

Now that the US Federal government wouldn't try it. 

jim

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural





From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep  7 03:16:02 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 12:16:02 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Good work by FBI and SEC on Emulex fraud case
References: <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
	 
	 <20000831131237.R21426@slack.lne.com>
	 <3.0.5.32.20000906114435.009714f0@idiom.com> 
Message-ID: <39B76AE2.EF7068DB@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
> At 11:44 AM -0700 9/6/00, Bill Stewart wrote:
> >How often do people check signatures?
> >If they check them, and they pass, how often do they check keys?

doesn't matter. it's POSSIBLE, that's what is important. the first time
you lose a million bucks at the exchange because you didn't check the
sig and someone else did, you'll start doing it.


> Sounds fair to me. Sounds like evolution in action.

definitely. I already suggested that my company sign PRs.




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep  7 04:10:17 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 13:10:17 +0200
Subject: CDR: segfault story on RSA
Message-ID: <39B77799.44467AB0@ricardo.de>


I think this guy put it much better than the official press release. :)



http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=39b6e1b5-0685fba0




From brainless at casinoaward.com  Thu Sep  7 13:13:54 2000
From: brainless at casinoaward.com (brainless at casinoaward.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:13:54
Subject: CDR: Re: My sister
Message-ID: <404.515503.595470@casinoaward.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 2049 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From brflgnk at cotse.com  Thu Sep  7 10:58:38 2000
From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:58:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: FBI "rejects" student profiling
Message-ID: <968349323.39b7d68bc5bd3@webmail.cotse.com>

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23462-2000Sep6.html

Of interest:  though the unnamed spokesman asserted that the FBI is opposed to 
profiling students to detect potential school violence, the article still 
includes a laundry list of "warning signs": "The FBI provided a list of clues to 
look for after a student has made a violent threat."

"Unsupervised" computer and Internet access is mentioned twice.

Soon to come:  "We cannot be so fixated on the right to free access to 
information..."  For the chiiilldren, of course!





From frissell at panix.com  Thu Sep  7 11:38:18 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:38:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: de minimus non curat lex
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907143124.036959c0@popserver.panix.com>

At 09:58 AM 9/5/00 -0400, TIGGGGERMOM at aol.com wrote:
>     what does this mean????


There was a young lawyer named Rex
Who had a diminutive instrument of sex
Charged with indecent exposure
He pleaded with composure
"De minimus non curat lex"

"DE MINIMUS NON CURAT LEX-Literally, "The law does not cure trifles." The 
rule that a minimal or trifling injury to a person, property, or rights 
does not justify the time and trouble of a lawsuit, and that the courts 
will refuse to hear such a suit. See damnum absque injuria."

http://www.ohiobar.org/public/law&you/glossary.html#d

DCF

----
"Di-electrical materialism dooms the Ancien Regime, the Treaty of 
Westphalia, the Communist International, the whole shooting match"




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep  7 15:08:49 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 15:08:49 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>

At 12:45 AM 9/7/00 -0400, Asymmetric wrote   :
>To make the application more robust, I have started rewriting it to use TCP 
>instead.  It is still a peer-peer network, requiring no dedicated servers.. 
>while this increases overhead somewhat, I think it's worth it to keep the 
>system from relying on one particular server, or a group of them.  

Servers are the price of scalability.  The nice thing about ICQ
and similar instant messaging applications, unlike IRC,
is that the server only tracks who's on and where, and doesn't carry
the actual communication traffic between users.  Obviously this is
for one-to-one conversations between two users rather than IRC's
everybody-to-everybody model.  Another option in this space is the
everybody's-a-server model, like Usenet uses.
Servers also offer the benefit that it's harder to tell
who's talking to whom, unlike point-to-point conversations,
but they do cause risks from compromise and downtime.

>everyone must maintain an active TCP connection to everyone else.. 

That's a MAJOR downside.  Most operating system and programming environments
limit how many open TCP connections you can keep, typically <20,
so this limits the sizes of communities you can maintain.
Also, if you have TCP connections you need to write code to handle
having them go up and down at unplanned times,
while UDP just dribbles in.
On the other hand, TCP sessions are good for data transfer.
Voice over TCP is a sketchier issue - the problem is that
the best way to handle lost voice packets is just to ignore the noise,
as opposed to waiting for the retransmission to arrive and
speeding up or delaying talk until you've caught up.

Your issues about ECB mode with UDP are good, though.
The alternative is to use CBC mode and trash the next couple of packets
after the lost/damaged one - CBC does self-recover.
This is ok for voice; may or may not be for chat.

>I have also decided to get rid of the key sharing mechanism, and instead 
>utilize D/H to generate a KEK, then transfer a 4096bit data block from the 
>initiating client to the serving client .....
>Now, my main question about D/H is quite simple.. what is considered a 
>"good" size for the prime and primitive used, in bits?  

The rule of thumb is that you need at least twice as many bits of
DH as you need of secure session key for your application, and you need
at least as many bits of DH as you would need for RSA.
You wouldn't want to use fewer than 1024 bits of RSA these days,
so don't use fewer than 1024 bits of DH.  That's enough for multiple
128-bit keys.
There are various format proposals for turning the DH key into a session key,
like using Hash(DHKey,YourIP,TheirIP,maybe-a-counter-or-Salt).
4096 may be overkill, but it depends a lot on how often you'll be rekeying
and how long you're willing to watch the CPU crunch to set up a connection.

The bigger risk, though, is the quality of random numbers available 
for seeding your DH keys.  Don't even DREAM of using Delphi's builtins,
if it has them - go find good crypto-quality-randomness work to reuse,
unless you know you'll only run on Linux where there's /dev/random.
At least use sound-card noise or user-entered mouse tracks to help.
Lots of "secure" systems have been cracked by cracking their random seeds.

If you don't have any other keying mechanism, you need to worry about
man-in-the-middle attacks.  A simple approach is to use PGP public keys
to sign the keyparts; that lets you reuse all the PGP infrastructure.
There are alternatives, at least for voice, like reading the bits of the 
shared keys to each other.  See the PGPFONE docs for much discussion on 
user interfaces - and think about how much of their code you can rip
off\\\\\\ reuse.

Also read the Photuris internet drafts - there's a lot of experience
on denial-of-service attacks that they've incorporated,
and it doesn't take much work to prevent most of them.

>An aside is that I'm writing the application in Delphi 5, and the maximum 
>native supported integer sizes are 32bit unsigned, and 64bit signed.. I've 
>been writing a math library of my own in assembler that at compile time 
>will allow you to specify the maximum bitsize you want it to support, but 
>this is proving to be a mind-numbing task.. ;)  

Gak!  Don't do something that ugly.  There are lots of math libraries
available,
such as the GMP Gnu Multiple Precision integer package.  Depending on how
Delphi feels about calling C routines, the most you should need to write
in assembler are some little wrappers to format the function calls,
and hopefully you don't need to do that.

Also, some versions of the RSAREF libraries had Diffie-Hellmann code in them,
as well as multiple-precision integers.


Other chat and messaging systems have been written.
Check out GALE at gale.org, and look through the Cypherpunks archives
for encrypted  IRC and DCC variants.  Don't let that stop you from coding,
but do steal code rather that writing from scratch when you can.


> First, I gotta say.. only been back on the list a day or two and the Signal 
> to Noise seems to have gotten nearly out of hand.. I don't know what 
> cypherpunks has to do with trying to listen in on cordless phone calls, or 
> how to give someone drugs.. but anyway.. something on topic.. :)

It's been high for years - thanks for adding Signal :-)

Listening in on cordless phones can be a legitimate cpunks kind of topic,
though it's been discussed in the past and this was probably just a troll
or a clueless newbie.  As far as giving people drugs, the standard
Cypherpunks approach is to say "That's a hardware problem" and then
discuss whose Palm-pilot digicash system you can use for payment, 
though there has also been crypto protocol work like
"The Cocaine Auction Protocol" on how suppliers and consumers can
find each other without interference by non-participants,
or building conferencing systems for ravers where the server operator
provably doesn't have anything subpoenable that would indicate which
chatters were discussing where to get drug X at event Y.
(There are also noisier Cypherpunks approaches to drugs, like saying
"Jim, yer off yer medication again" or "smells good, got any more?" or
"He's obviously smoking something *very* good and not sharing" or 
"No, in a geodesic gift economy you really *might not* charge for drugs." :-)


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Sep  7 12:39:51 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:39:51 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000907075006.00813100@pop.sprynet.com>

At 06:15 AM 9/7/00 -0400, Tom Vogt wrote:
>not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
>a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
>re-distributes these things.
>

So if you don't pay GEMA who *are* those folks with the guns? 









  








From samsam900 at wam.co.za  Thu Sep  7 16:05:39 2000
From: samsam900 at wam.co.za (samsam900 at wam.co.za)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:05:39
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200009080247.TAA27903@toad.com>


SPORTS - ENTERTAINMENT - INTERNET SECRETS - DATING 
1-900 INFO Services 

Visit our web site at http://www.portaloutfitters.com/900 to see a 
complete list of our services or 

call our 900 psychic line 
http://www.portaloutfitters.com/900/psy.htm 
1-900-484-0022 EXT.3710 
(Not Available in WA,OR,ID,MT,WY,ND,SD,MIN,Nb,IW,UT,CO,AZ,NM) 
($3.99 per minute 18 +) 

or our 900 Alternate Dating Line 
http://www.portaloutfitters.com/900/altline.htm
1-900-255-6189 EXT.3710 (2.99/min 18+) 

-----------------------------------------
For removal, please respond to 
mailto:vebee900 at wam.co.za with the 
subject "remove".
-----------------------------------------
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Sep  7 13:07:54 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:07:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Hardware support for trusted pc 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000907130625.00804ce0@pop.sprynet.com>


Basically next year you could get a motherboard with a security module
onboard.  Which is both your friend, and not.

The last EETimes-print-edition had an article with *much* more info but I
found the following online.  You can comment on the www.trustedpc.org
stuff until October, on their site; they have whitepapers.  




Coprocessors Move
              Security Onto PC
              Motherboards
              (09/05/00, 6:51 p.m. ET) By Junko Yoshida , EE Times 

              SAN MATEO, Calif. -- Responding to
              industry demand for better built-in
              security, vendors of PC chips and
              smart-card ICs are racing to develop
              security coprocessors that mount on a PC
              motherboard. 

              Architectural approaches vary, but
              suppliers agree that this new design socket
              will start showing up in motherboards as
              early as the middle of next year. 

              Integrating a security chip makes it
              possible "to view the PC as an endpoint
              for the delivery of goods and services" in
              the digital economy, said Geoffrey
              Strongin, platform security architect at
              Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (stock:
              AMD), Sunnyvale, Calif. 

              AMD is one of the PC chip makers
              readying a security device. 

              The trend is to move "core security and
              e-commerce functions out to the edge of
              the Internet, and place them in all endpoint
              devices including the user's PC,"
              concurred Steven Sprague, president and
              chief executive officer at Wave Systems
              Corp. (stock: WAVX), Lee, Mass., which
              fields the Embassy security chip and is
              working with AMD on a reference design.

              Promoters say that while much effort has
              gone into securing the network and the
              server-side infrastructure, until very
              recently the client has been overlooked.
              Thanks to advances in SSL software
              technology, the transmission of data
              across the Internet is more secure than
              ever. 

              But "vulnerability often exists at the PC
              and at the server," said Cees Jan Koomen,
              chairman of the board at security-chip
              vendor Pijnenburg Securealink, Vught,
              Netherlands, which is also developing a
              coprocessor. 

              "You need a cryptographic solution in
              hardware, placed at the server and PC
              terminal," he said. That way, "critical
              information, such as a key, is not available
              except inside the chip, while the hardware
              can accelerate the transaction speed." 

              Driving the security-coprocessor
              groundswell is an emerging specification
              being put together by the Trusted
              Computing Platform Alliance, an industry
              group founded by Compaq Computer
              Corp. (stock: CPQ), Houston;
              Hewlett-Packard Co. (stock: HWP), Palo
              Alto, Calif.; IBM Corp. (stock: IBM);
              Intel Corp. (stock: INTC), Santa Clara,
              Calif.; and Microsoft Corp. (stock:
              MSFT), Redmond, Wash.


http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20000905S0019







  








From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep  7 13:24:37 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:24:37 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000907131243.009d7620@idiom.com>

At 06:15 AM 9/7/00 -0400, Tom Vogt wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> You're missing a more important point: there is no correlation
>> between who is using the service or product and who is paying the tax.
>> 
>> Taxing a computer used for video game playing, for example, when
>> absolutely no "piracy" is happening from that computer. An overly
>> wide net.
>> 
>> Governments like this sort of thing, however. Tax everyone, then
>> spend the revenues as they wish.
>
>not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
>a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
>re-distributes these things.
>
>the system has been the subject of criticism often, but works
>surprisingly well. that might be because the article doesn't mention the
>OTHER side of it. for example, paying a fixed sum to GEMA enables you to
>play music in public (say, as a shop owner in your shop) without having
>to deal with the individual artists and labels for "broadcasting
>rights". it greatly simplifies things for small shops.

So does the proposed law require companies to pay GEMA
if they make or sell anything in this category?
If they don't pay, what happens?  Lawsuit?  Criminal prosecution?
I don't expect that US newspaper reporting gets the details precisely correct.

In the US, there are a couple of organizations, I think ASCAP and BMI,
	(American Society of Composers, Artists, and Performers)
that manage the intellectual property rights for most musicians.
If you play music on the radio or do other public performances,
you have to pay them their standard rates.  It's not mandatory -
there are non-ASCAP musicians, and radio stations (particularly
religious talk/music stations) that don't participate,
but if you play music from their members on the radio without
a license from them, they'll sue for copyright infringement.

(The main reason religious radio stations often don't use ASCAP
is that they're a niche market, but the payments to ASCAP
cover the whole market and are priced high enough that 
stations that don't play new commercial music
don't want to pay that much.  Of course, some of them just
don't like sex, drugs, and rock&roll :-)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From frissell at panix.com  Thu Sep  7 13:25:24 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 16:25:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: 2nd Quarter Taxpats List Up
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907161519.03695790@popserver.panix.com>

I posted the Fed's 2Q 2000 list of persons "who have chosen to 
expatriate".  Find it via:

http://www.frissell.com/taxpat/taxpats.html

Most interesting entry?  A "person" identified by the Feds as:

REINSURANCE, LTD..............  RBC.............

Presumably Royal Bank of Canada's reinsurance subsidiary in Ireland & Barbados:

http://www.rbcinsurance.ca/

I wonder if they know they've renounced?

DCF




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Sep  7 16:31:08 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:31:08 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Domestic surveillance: infilatration
Message-ID: 

>State police infiltrated protest groups, documents

Yes, I always ask myself which 4 cpunks are pigs at
the physical meetings. Hmmm, I guess those that never
missed one ?

Is there a test ?






From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Sep  7 14:21:26 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:21:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: IP protection 
Message-ID: 

http://www.vsia.com/
has a new paper on IP protection/detection
for cores.  

Table of Contents
VSIA IP Protection DWG 1
Scope 1
Introduction 1
Overview: Security Schemes 2
Deterrents 3
Patents 4
Copyright 4
Trade Secrets 4
Governing Law 4
Protection Mechanisms 5
Encryption 5
Hardware Protection 5
Chemical Protection 5
Detection Schemes 5
Tagging and Tracking 6
Digital Signatures 6
Digital Fingerprinting 6
Digital Watermarking 6
Noise Fingerprinting 7
Silicon Security 7
Programmable SRAM 7
Hard Mask 8
Anti-fuse programmable 8

In the area of electronic design, there are an estimated 100 reverse engineering shops in the US
approximately 70 percent of these are funded by government(s), and many of the techniques developed are
leaked, or even published, to the industry. The American Society for Industrial Secrets estimates that in the
US alone, trade secret theft is in excess of $2 billion per month.





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Sep  7 14:27:24 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:27:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Domestic surveillance: infilatration
Message-ID: 

State police infiltrated protest groups, documents
               show 

               Search-warrant affidavits reveal an undercover operation
               aimed at activists in Philadelphia for the GOP convention.

               By Linda K. Harris,, Craig R. McCoy and Thomas Ginsberg 
               INQUIRER STAFF WRITERS 

               State police undercover agents posing as demonstrators infiltrated activist
               groups planning the protests at the Republican National Convention,
               search-warrant documents made public yesterday showed.

               The undercover operation was detailed in legal documents filed Aug. 1
               by Philadelphia police seeking search warrants for a raid that day on a
               so-called "puppet warehouse" at 4100 Haverford Ave. in West
               Philadelphia. The documents were under a court seal until yesterday.

               About 75 people were arrested in the raid at the warehouse.

               The infiltration was immediately condemned yesterday by the state
               chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union and the city public
               defenders office.

               "Its worse than sleazeball," said Stefan Presser, the ACLUs legal
               director. "This is an outrage."

               Presser and other critics said dissenters needed the right to rally and to
               organize without fear that police were spying on them. They said they
               feared that police undercover officers could cross the line from
               intelligence-gatherers to provocateurs.

               "The legality and propriety of this potentially unconstitutional police
               conduct will certainly be an issue at the time of trial in all of these cases,"
               said Bradley Bridge, a senior lawyer with the defenders office.

               During the convention, Police Commissioner John F. Timoney
               repeatedly denied that police had engaged in infiltration. 

               "We had not infiltrated any group," he said the day after police raided the
               warehouse that had become one of several gathering spots for
               demonstrators during the convention.

               A spokeswoman for the commissioner said yesterday that he would have
               no comment. Lt. Susan Slawson, commander of the police public-affairs
               unit, said the commissioner could not talk because "its in litigation," a
               reference to a civil suit filed by demonstrators challenging their arrests
               during the protests.

               The use of state police as the undercover operatives took place as the
               city itself was restricted from using its own officers for such infiltration
               under a long-standing mayoral directive. The directive says the police
               may not infiltrate protest groups without the permission of the mayor, the
               managing director, and the police commissioner. 

               Mayor Street and City Solicitor Kenneth Trujillo declined comment
               yesterday.

               In seeking search warrants, police cited the work of the undercover
               operatives and detailed the intelligence gathered as the convention
               approached. The information is sketched out in affidavits of probable
               cause seeking warrants to search the warehouse, a U-Haul van, another
               van, and a pickup that police deemed suspicious.

               "This investigation is utilizing several Pennsylvania state troopers in an
               undercover capacity that have infiltrated several of the activist groups
               planning to commit numerous illegal direct actions," said one affidavit,
               signed by Detective William Egenlauf of the Philadelphia Police
               Department.

               It says the state police undercover operatives arrived at the warehouse on
               July 27, four days before the convention began. 

               Once there, the agents assisted "in the construction of props to be used
               during protests," the affidavit says.

               It says agents observed demonstrators building street barriers and "lock
               boxes," devices used by protesters to lock arms together when blocking
               streets. The papers say they overheard discussions that indicated
               protesters planned on "using the puppets . . . as blockades."

               The operatives also reported that "persons indicated they would be
               throwing pies, bottles and cardboard boxes filled with water at the
               police," the affidavits stated.

               Timoney held a news conference after the convention to display items
               seized during the raid, including two massive slingshots and chains
               wrapped in kerosene-soaked rags. Such devices were not used during the
               protests. Police also displayed seized "lock boxes." 

               Protesters have claimed the facility was nothing more than an art studio
               to fashion the puppets, floats and other props that were a hallmark of the
               demonstrations.

               Demonstrators also said their protests would be nonviolent, with illegal
               actions limited to the blockading of streets. Their lawyers have
               complained that numerous people were arrested in the warehouse
               without any proof they had any connection to illegal items.

               A key subject of controversy has been the raid on the warehouse.

               The request for the search warrants for the warehouse and lengthy
               affidavits detailing police intelligence-gathering was made yesterday, a
               month after Municipal Court President Judge Louis J. Presenza approved
               the searches.

               At the request of the District Attorneys Office, the warrants were sealed
               - barred from public inspection - for a month as soon as they were
               issued. The legal request for the warrants maintained that premature
               "disclosure of this affidavit could endanger the lives" of the undercover
               operatives.

               The affidavits cite sweeping police intelligence-gathering before the
               convention. This included monitoring of unspecified "electronic
               messages" sent among demonstrators, an apparent reference to police
               scrutiny of Web sites and electronic mailing lists.

               The police documents identified what investigators viewed as the key
               protest groups and their goals. Funds for one group "allegedly originate
               with Communist and leftist parties and from sympathetic trade unions" or
               from "the former Soviet-allied World Federation of Trade Unions,"
               according to the affidavits. 

               The affidavits go on to identify a handful of leaders of the various
               groups. Among those cited by name are John Sellers and Kate Sorensen,
               who were later arrested during demonstrations in Center City. The two
               were held in jail for days in lieu of $1 million bail - a sum critics said was
               extraordinary. In recent interviews after their release from jail, people
               who were inside the warehouse said that they had suspected early on that
               four undercover officers were working among them. Four men - known
               as Tim, Harry, George and Ryan - showed up together at 41st and
               Haverford about a week before the convention, introducing themselves
               as union carpenters from Wilkes-Barre who built stages, several
               demonstrators said.

               They were big, burly men who were older than most of the people
               working in the warehouse. They did not seem particularly political or
               well-informed, according to demonstrators. All four, however, were
               considered hard workers.

               Soliman Lawrence, 20, of Tallahassee, Fla., worked closely with the four
               on a massive satirical float built for a protest march.

               "They gained our trust," Lawrence said. "The fact that we didnt know
               them very well wasnt a big deal.

               "I remember thinking to myself, Why does everyone who looks like that
               have to be a cop? " Lawrence said. "I didnt like that I thought like that."










From apoio at giganetstore.com  Thu Sep  7 09:30:09 2000
From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:30:09 +0100
Subject: CDR: Experience the Legacy...
Message-ID: <039a60930160790WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore>

  
 
Agora pode encontrar a experiência ALIEN completa em DVD pela primeira
vez.
Experience The Legacy...
Entre na história cronológicamente dos 4 filmes da saga ALIEN. Irá
descobrir as 
personagens, extraterrestes,armas e veículos que fizeram desta saga, uma
das
melhores de todos os tempos. 
A Giganetstore.com vai disponibilizar aos seus clientes a oportunidade
de 
receberem em casa no próprio dia do lançamento ( 14 de Setembro ) este 
fantástico pack que reune os 4 filmes da saga ALIEN, bem como um 
documentário especial de 68 minutos.
Mas atenção esta oferta está sujeita ao stock disponível logo não perca 
tempo e clique em
 
Giga   netstore.com
 
Gigapreços.Gigacompras 



Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http://www.giganetstore.com  , 
ir retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e
novos serviços. 


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 2795 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From larry_levinson at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 15:19:46 2000
From: larry_levinson at hotmail.com (Larry Levinson)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 18:19:46 EDT
Subject: CDR: membership
Message-ID: 

Hi. I'm trying to get information on NAMBLA and found your post on a random 
search. I'm having trouble locating NAMBLA. The website seems to have been 
stopped. I've written to someone else (a former secretary of the group) but 
thought I'd try you as well.

Some close friends suggested it as a good place to join, chat and make 
friends with similar interests.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Larry
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep  7 15:31:42 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:31:42 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Domestic surveillance: infilatration
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000907153128.009cd100@idiom.com>

At 05:27 PM 9/7/00 -0400, A. Melon wrote:
>               Search-warrant affidavits reveal an undercover operation
>               aimed at activists in Philadelphia for the GOP convention.
>               By Linda K. Harris,, Craig R. McCoy and Thomas Ginsberg 
>               INQUIRER STAFF WRITERS 

I can't say I'm surprised.  A decade or so ago, I went to an anarchist 
convention in Philly that was being watched by guys in suits in 
a big American car, who were identified as the Philly Police Red Squad.
I'd been surprised such things still existed.  We moved from the Quaker
school 
where the main convention was to an anarchist coffeeshop, and they reappeared.
(A Quaker friend of mine said "It's not a *real* anarchist meeting unless 
somebody brings them coffee and doughnuts." 
"Yeah, I offered to do that, but they'd brought their own thermos" :-)

>               The operatives also reported that "persons indicated they
would be
>               throwing pies, bottles and cardboard boxes filled with
water at the
>               police," the affidavits stated.
...
>               The request for the search warrants for the warehouse and
lengthy
>               affidavits detailing police intelligence-gathering was made
yesterday, a
>               month after Municipal Court President Judge Louis J.
Presenza approved
>               the searches.
>
>               At the request of the District Attorneys Office, the
warrants were sealed
>               - barred from public inspection - for a month as soon as
they were
>               issued. The legal request for the warrants maintained that
premature
>               "disclosure of this affidavit could endanger the lives" of
the undercover
>               operatives.

That sounds like a clear case of libel.  


>               The affidavits cite sweeping police intelligence-gathering
before the
>               convention. This included monitoring of unspecified
"electronic
>               messages" sent among demonstrators, an apparent reference
to police
>               scrutiny of Web sites and electronic mailing lists.

Any chance of the ECPA applying to this surveillance?

>               The police documents identified what investigators viewed
as the key
>               protest groups and their goals. Funds for one group
"allegedly originate
>               with Communist and leftist parties and from sympathetic
trade unions" or
>               from "the former Soviet-allied World Federation of Trade
Unions,"
>               according to the affidavits. 

Yup.  Red squads.  Nice that they can occasionally find a *real* Red to
be paranoid about, though I'm not sure where they can find a Communist
party with any funding.

>	 In recent interviews after their release from jail, people
>      who were inside the warehouse said that they had suspected early on
that
>      four undercover officers were working among them. Four men - known
>      as Tim, Harry, George and Ryan - showed up together at 41st and
>      Haverford about a week before the convention, introducing themselves
>      as union carpenters from Wilkes-Barre who built stages, several
>      demonstrators said.
...
>      Soliman Lawrence, 20, of Tallahassee, Fla., worked closely with the
four
>      on a massive satirical float built for a protest march.
>      "They gained our trust," Lawrence said. "The fact that we didnt know
>      them very well wasnt a big deal.
>      "I remember thinking to myself, Why does everyone who looks like that
>      have to be a cop? " Lawrence said. "I didnt like that I thought like
that."

PGP was of course designed for environments similar to this - 
people you've met in person introducing other people they've met in person,
particularly in the heavily infiltrated anti-nuke movement.
On the other hand, it was oriented towards True Names, where you're
usually pretty sure that if Bob signs a key for Carol who signs for Dave,
that you're really sending email to the Dave you thought you were sending
it to, 
though Dave may or may not be a Fed.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Thu Sep  7 16:00:31 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:00:31 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: membership
References: 
Message-ID: <39B81DF6.CD39FA85@acmenet.net>

Larry Levinson wrote:
> 
> Hi. I'm trying to get information on NAMBLA and found your post on a random
> search. I'm having trouble locating NAMBLA. The website seems to have been
> stopped. I've written to someone else (a former secretary of the group) but
> thought I'd try you as well.
> 
> Some close friends suggested it as a good place to join, chat and make
> friends with similar interests.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Larry

Sorry, the National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes has
closed its membership for the year. Next year's open call for recruits
will be in April, location to be determined.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From k-elliott at wiu.edu  Thu Sep  7 17:02:18 2000
From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:02:18 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 10:13 -0400 9/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote:
>	For brute force key search, the initial permution can effectively be
>	factored out, and neither speeds nor impedes the search. This was
>	done by all of the keysearch apps used in the RSA Symmetric DES
>	Challenges.

Do you have a link and/or expanded information on the specifics?

>	I (this was before I worked for RSA) also described an extremely
>fast
>	method to generate and iterate key schedules which was also widely
>	used, reducing key schedule management from 90% of cpu to less
>	than 10%.

Does this method work for apps that are generating and testing lots 
of keys or does the initial key generation step still have to be 
undertaken?  The whole point of the blowfish technique was to 
increase the attackers required effort.  It was basicly assumed that 
valid users would simply store the expanded key.  Is their a link 
somewhere to more information on this technique or could you expand 
on it?
-- 

Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott 
                             ICQ#23758827
_______________________________________________________________________________
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both 
instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly 
unchanged.  And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware 
of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting 
victims of the darkness."
-- Justice William O. Douglas




From petro at bounty.org  Thu Sep  7 20:03:43 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 20:03:43 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <00090711115800.26310@reality.eng.savvis.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
  <39B769EC.8442F326@ricardo.de>
 <00090711115800.26310@reality.eng.savvis.net>
Message-ID: 

Jim:
>Having the government make it a tax is a little too much like
>fascism.  Correction, its exactly like fascism.
>
>Now that the US Federal government wouldn't try it.

	And the English say Americans don't understand sarcasm or irony.

	That *was* sarcasm, right?

	(btw, I'm stealing your .sig line).
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
"They can attempt to outlaw weapons but they can't outlaw the 
Platonic Ideal of a weapon and modern technology makes it absolutely 
trivial to convert a Platonic Ideal of a weapon into an actual weapon 
whenever one desires." 




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Sep  7 17:38:42 2000
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 20:38:42 -0400
Subject: CDR: Federal agencies share taxpayer info from Web sites
Message-ID: 

By LANCE GAY
Scripps Howard News Service
September 07, 2000

WASHINGTON - At least four federal agencies are sharing taxpayer data they are gathering from Internet visitors to government Web sites with trade organizations, retailers or other outside parties, congressional investigators say.

In a survey of online-privacy protections at government-run Web sites, the General Accounting Office found that 23 of 70 agencies surveyed have disclosed personal information gathered from Web sites to third parties, mostly other government agencies. But at least four agencies were found sharing information with private entities.

The GAO is a congressional unit that audits federal programs.

Some privacy advocates said the findings show the need to update a 1974 Privacy Act, which forbids government agencies from sharing with outsiders information they collect from taxpayers, but was drafted before computers were widely used.

"It's time to strengthen this important law for the Internet age,'' said Ari Schwartz, policy analyst with the Center for Democracy and Technology.

Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, said the report clearly shows the White House isn't effectively enforcing Privacy Act provisions on executive branch agencies. "It's a surprisingly good law,'' Rotenberg said. "I think the big issue here is oversight and enforcement of the Privacy Act."

The GAO investigation was launched a year ago on a request by Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., to find out how government agencies are handling privacy issues on their Web sites. Lieberman has spearheaded efforts on the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee to oversee government use of the Internet to provide information to taxpayers.

GAO investigators said many of the privacy problems with government Web sites they uncovered could be addressed by the White House Office of Management and Budget issuing more specific guidelines on what information government agencies can release.

Office of Management and Budget guidelines forbid dissemination of "substantial" personal information, but they don't tell agencies what that means, or "whether such information as Social Security numbers and credit card numbers qualify as substantial personal information," the GAO said.

In its survey of 70 government agencies, congressional investigators classified "substantial" personal information as being a person's name, e-mail address, postal address, telephone number, Social Security number or credit card numbers. The investigation found 23 agencies shared information with other government agencies, and four said they share information with private-sector entities.

The agencies were not named. The outside parties included trade organizations, bilateral development banks, product manufacturers, distributors and retailers.

Sally Katzen, deputy director of the Office of Management and Budget, said the GAO report didn't reflect considerable progress the Clinton administration has made in persuading government agencies to pay attention to privacy issues.

Web sites run by the White House itself have been embroiled in privacy concerns. In June, Scripps Howard News Service reported that Internet sites run by the White House drug czar's office were secretly putting "cookie" programs in the computers of visitors to track what they were doing on the site.

Office of Management and Budget Director Jacob Lew ordered drug czar Barry McCaffrey to turn off the cookie machine, and issued a governmentwide directive stating that cookies programs can only be used in rare cases, and only if their use is approved by the agency's director.

The GAO survey found seven agencies used cookies, which are small software programs inserted in a visitor's computer. Cookies programs are used by advertising firms to track Internet users' activities, and can be combined with other data to compile profiles of individual Internet users.

On the Net: GAO is at htpp://www.gao.gov

(Lance Gay is a reporter for Scripps Howard News Service.)

J 







From all at biosys.net  Thu Sep  7 18:20:47 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 21:20:47 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 15:08 09/07/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:


>Servers are the price of scalability.  The nice thing about ICQ
>and similar instant messaging applications, unlike IRC,
>is that the server only tracks who's on and where, and doesn't carry
>the actual communication traffic between users.  Obviously this is
>for one-to-one conversations between two users rather than IRC's
>everybody-to-everybody model.  Another option in this space is the
>everybody's-a-server model, like Usenet uses.
>Servers also offer the benefit that it's harder to tell
>who's talking to whom, unlike point-to-point conversations,
>but they do cause risks from compromise and downtime.

Right.. I consider the benefits to outweigh the costs.  I am keeping the 
protocol robust enough that if you wanted to implement a server on your 
own, you could probably do so with minimal impact to the clients 
themselves.  When finished, you'll be able to add servers just as you do 
other users to your "buddy list" if you will, and communicate with a larger 
group that way.  Inter-server communications is not restricted either, but 
it's a ways down the road.


> >everyone must maintain an active TCP connection to everyone else..
>
>That's a MAJOR downside.  Most operating system and programming environments
>limit how many open TCP connections you can keep, typically <20,
>so this limits the sizes of communities you can maintain.
>Also, if you have TCP connections you need to write code to handle
>having them go up and down at unplanned times,
>while UDP just dribbles in.
>On the other hand, TCP sessions are good for data transfer.
>Voice over TCP is a sketchier issue - the problem is that
>the best way to handle lost voice packets is just to ignore the noise,
>as opposed to waiting for the retransmission to arrive and
>speeding up or delaying talk until you've caught up.

Yes.. I understand the differences in TCP/UDP pretty well, and their 
strengths and weaknesses.  I've done extensive programming using both, and 
have decided to go with TCP.  I do however have two points to bring up with 
the beginning of this section of your reply.

1) I've never encountered the 20 socket limit on any OS in recent memory.. 
and many applications open more than this on a regular basis.

2) The target audience of this application is very small, and currently 
restricted to Win32 users because it is written in Delphi.  Before long 
Delphi will be available for Linux, and cross-compiler compatability will 
have to be tested, but it is a big selling point with 
Borland/Inprise.  When Kylix (Delphi/C++ Builder on Linux) is available, I 
am keeping my fingers crossed that it will run well on FreeBSD, since I 
refuse to touch Linux with a ten foot pole, but have several years 
experience not only with Delphi, but with Administration of FreeBSD as well 
as NT based boxes.

I agree that voice using TCP has the drawbacks that you mentioned, however, 
because of the other existing requirements such as CBC and File Transfer, 
it is required that you have a reliable connection to get even the basic 
functionality of the program to work.  I'd rather have a delay in hearing 
the voice messages until the packets have arrived than decrease their 
security by using ECB.


>Your issues about ECB mode with UDP are good, though.
>The alternative is to use CBC mode and trash the next couple of packets
>after the lost/damaged one - CBC does self-recover.
>This is ok for voice; may or may not be for chat.

CBC does self recover yes, if bits are flipped that should not be 
flipped.  According to AC, a one bit error will cause a corresponding 1bit 
error, as well as mangling the following block.. but subsequent blocks will 
be OK.  However, it states very clearly that receiving the wrong number of 
bits in the stream will destroy the rest of the stream beyond repair for 
the decryption end, and that makes sense.  If a UDP packet is lost, then 
the rest of the stream is screwed and must be reinitialized.  Since the 
only way around this problem (besides using EBC) is to write my own 
connection-handling on top of UDP; I instead choose to let the OS handle 
this for me, in the form of TCP.

To quote Applied Cryptography, 2nd edition..

p195, pp5
"In CBC mode, a single-bit error in the ciphertext affects one block and 
one bit of the recovered plaintext.  The block containing the error is 
completely garbled.  The subsequent block has a 1-bit error in the same bit 
position as the error."

...

p196, pp2
"While CBC mode recovers quickly from bit errors, it doesn't recover at all 
from synchronization errors.  If a bit is added or lost from the ciphertext 
stream, then all subsequent bits are shifted one bit out of position and 
decryption will generate garbage indefinitely."

I assume that losing an entire block worth of bits will cause as much havoc 
as losing just one bit would.  If that isn't correct, I'd like to hear it..


>The rule of thumb is that you need at least twice as many bits of
>DH as you need of secure session key for your application, and you need
>at least as many bits of DH as you would need for RSA.
>You wouldn't want to use fewer than 1024 bits of RSA these days,
>so don't use fewer than 1024 bits of DH.  That's enough for multiple
>128-bit keys.
>There are various format proposals for turning the DH key into a session key,
>like using Hash(DHKey,YourIP,TheirIP,maybe-a-counter-or-Salt).
>4096 may be overkill, but it depends a lot on how often you'll be rekeying
>and how long you're willing to watch the CPU crunch to set up a connection.

The D/H is going to be used just to generate a key to securely transfer a 
4096 bit key for use in symmetrical crypto routines later in the program, 
for actual encryption of the chat/voice/file data transfers.  Using 1024 
bits of D/H is fine to generate a key-encryption key to just transfer the 
4096bit key.  I chose 4096 because it's large enough to be used in any 
symmetric crypto algorithm to max out it's key length.


>The bigger risk, though, is the quality of random numbers available
>for seeding your DH keys.  Don't even DREAM of using Delphi's builtins,
>if it has them - go find good crypto-quality-randomness work to reuse,
>unless you know you'll only run on Linux where there's /dev/random.
>At least use sound-card noise or user-entered mouse tracks to help.
>Lots of "secure" systems have been cracked by cracking their random seeds.

Of course. ;)


>If you don't have any other keying mechanism, you need to worry about
>man-in-the-middle attacks.  A simple approach is to use PGP public keys
>to sign the keyparts; that lets you reuse all the PGP infrastructure.
>There are alternatives, at least for voice, like reading the bits of the
>shared keys to each other.  See the PGPFONE docs for much discussion on
>user interfaces - and think about how much of their code you can rip
>off\\\\\\ reuse.

Well, truth be told, everyone knows that there is the problem "If Mallory 
is God.." which in this world simply means, if Mallory is your upstream 
you're in some serious trouble.  He could just as easily intercept the PGP 
keys and replace them with his own if they didn't already exist on the 
server.. this would cause problems for keys signed outside mallorys realm, 
say if you could distribute your key outside his available channels... 
however, if you could do that, you could just as easily trade a PRNG and a 
list of seeds, or even discuss whatever it is you mean to discuss over a 
cup of coffee.. :)

There comes a point of diminishing returns in trying to defeat the 
mallorys, where instead of making the problem harder for them, you just 
replace it with an equally hard/easy problem of a different nature.  I'm as 
paranoid as the next guy, but if mallory exists (in a given scenario) and 
he is in a position to intercept/forge a D/H exchange, then chances he is 
in a position to intercept/forge his own PK are highly likely.


>Also read the Photuris internet drafts - there's a lot of experience
>on denial-of-service attacks that they've incorporated,
>and it doesn't take much work to prevent most of them.

Ah, sorry.. how did we get on the topic of denial of service?


>Gak!  Don't do something that ugly.  There are lots of math libraries
>available,

Hey, I tend to find asm totally the opposite of ugly.  I've been writing it 
for years and have become pretty proficient at it, and my solutions are 
usually quite fast and elegant.  But, I have found a library I am going to 
be using instead.. the FGInt library.

>such as the GMP Gnu Multiple Precision integer package.  Depending on how
>Delphi feels about calling C routines, the most you should need to write
>in assembler are some little wrappers to format the function calls,
>and hopefully you don't need to do that.

Delphi can call C routines no problem, I have two problems with GMP that 
however have nothing to do with Delphi..

First, It's GPL'd, or under a modified version of the GPL.  I find the GPL 
to be distasteful and it forms a barrier more than a bridge to continued 
software development.  The reason for this I think is pretty simple; the 
GPL (I refer to the classic GPL.. I am not sure of modifications to it that 
may have been made for it's application to GMP) has made it excruciatingly 
clear that any program or library using any GPL'd source code must itself 
be open source, and cannot be sold for profit, but only "at-cost".  This 
represents a very "scary" proposition to professional developers such as 
myself, who are used to being paid for our work, since it basically states 
that any person can just come along, take a copy of our source code (which 
may in and of itself contain anything analogous to a "trade secret"), 
modify it and release it under a different name.  It also bars me from ever 
releasing a for-pay version or revision of the software based on GPL'd 
code.  I'm not in the support business, and any examination of the stock 
market would make it pretty obvious that those companies that claim they 
are in that business aren't doing so well.

I much prefer the BSD license which allows you to take, modify and use the 
source code within, and sell it or distribute it without source code if you 
so choose, provided you include the existing copyright for the sections of 
code you have used.  It gives the developer more freedom over how to 
distribute his/her own code, and incidentally allows people like myself who 
aren't in the support business and don't want to be the freedom to continue 
paying the bills by doing development on our own terms.

Sorry for the rant.. I'm a big fan of the Free Software movement, as well 
as the Open Source movements.. I am however mature enough to realize that 
there are situations when either one may be inappropriate, and I'm a far 
bigger fan of freedom than I am of free/open.  I believe that if you want 
to make your source code open and free, then you do so without restrictions.


>Also, some versions of the RSAREF libraries had Diffie-Hellmann code in them,
>as well as multiple-precision integers.
>
>
>Other chat and messaging systems have been written.
>Check out GALE at gale.org, and look through the Cypherpunks archives
>for encrypted  IRC and DCC variants.  Don't let that stop you from coding,
>but do steal code rather that writing from scratch when you can.

Ah, but that really detracts from the joy of a lot of it.. :)  The only 
parts I'd steal would be parts that I'm finding difficult to do, like the 
large math libraries.. and that takes all the fun out of learning for 
yourself.. :)  Far from inventing the wheel though, I will use 
libraries/snippets that stand up to my testing as well as my scrutiny of 
their license.. I want to get a version working now (without gpl-like 
restrictions) and then I probably will go back and rewrite every line 
myself that I have obtained elsewhere, just so I know how it all works, I 
am free of licensing restrictions, and I can implement bug fixes/features 
without worrying about maybe breaking something I didn't write.  You know 
how difficult it can be to understand code written by other people, I'm 
sure.. ;)

>It's been high for years - thanks for adding Signal :-)

I'll try and continue. ;)


>Listening in on cordless phones can be a legitimate cpunks kind of topic,
>though it's been discussed in the past and this was probably just a troll
>or a clueless newbie.  As far as giving people drugs, the standard
>Cypherpunks approach is to say "That's a hardware problem" and then
>discuss whose Palm-pilot digicash system you can use for payment,
>though there has also been crypto protocol work like
>"The Cocaine Auction Protocol" on how suppliers and consumers can
>find each other without interference by non-participants,
>or building conferencing systems for ravers where the server operator
>provably doesn't have anything subpoenable that would indicate which
>chatters were discussing where to get drug X at event Y.
>(There are also noisier Cypherpunks approaches to drugs, like saying
>"Jim, yer off yer medication again" or "smells good, got any more?" or
>"He's obviously smoking something *very* good and not sharing" or
>"No, in a geodesic gift economy you really *might not* charge for drugs." :-)

hahah.. of course.. well, again, sorry for ranting above a bit and possibly 
contributing some to the noise.. I'll be around, but for now, there is 
another window open with code crying out to be written... ;)

Take it easy.


-------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
-Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.




From declan at well.com  Thu Sep  7 18:53:26 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 21:53:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration 9/11 7:30pm SFO Hyatt
In-Reply-To: ; from allyn@well.com on Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:11:42AM -0700
References: <3.0.5.32.20000906172950.00795830@idiom.com> 
Message-ID: <20000907215326.A8574@cluebot.com>

There is something being worked on for DC. Dunno about Seattle.

-Declan


On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:11:42AM -0700, Mark Allyn wrote:
> 
> Is there anything planned for up here in Seattle?
> 
> Mark
> 
> 




From call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com  Thu Sep  7 21:32:28 2000
From: call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com (call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:32:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: Need Any Golf Balls  ??
Message-ID: <200009080432.AAA08485@venus.urconvenience.com>

We Are Currently Offering Great Prices On All Our Titleist Products

Call Us For Additional Information.
                                                             Item #

Titleist Professional               $22.95 doz               RHS11T
Titleist Prestige                   $23.95 doz               RHS17T
Titleist Tour Distance              $19.95 doz               RHS13T
Titleist HP Tours                   $14.95 doz               RHS12T
Titleist HP Distance                $15.95 doz               RD31T
Tilteist HP Eclipse		    $16.95 doz		     RM32T
Titleist HVC                        $12.95 doz               RD32T
Titleist DT                         $11.95 doz               RM20T
Titleist Professional Blems         $69.95 10-doz            SP06TP
Titleist Mixed Blems		    $39.95 10-doz	     SP07TM

These are our superb premium quality golf balls, the finest quality we have available.  These are NOT X-OUTS.  Call us for more details.

Other great values include:

Strata                              $16.95 doz               RHS16T
MaxFli Revolution                   $19.95 doz               RHS15
Nike                                $19.95 doz               RMS21N
Taylor Made InnerGels               $23.95 doz               RD46TA
Precept MC                          $14.95 doz               RHS20P
Precept EV Spin or Distance         $14.95 doz               RMS24
Staff Titanium Distance or Spin     $13.95 doz               RD38W
Pinnacle Xtreme                     $ 9.95 doz               RD40P
Top Flite Magna                     $ 9.95 doz               RD34TF
Slazenger Raw or Spin               $16.95 doz               RD36S
Top Flite XL 2000-all models        $ 9.95 doz               RD35TF
Ultras                              $ 9.95 doz               RD37U
MaxFli MD			    $ 8.95 doz		     RMS26M
Pinnacle Gold			    $ 6.95 doz		     RD41PN
Top Flite XL			    $ 6.95 doz		     RD35TF
Prostaff			    $59.95 10-doz	     SP08PS

Call us if you don't see your favorite ball.

We have nearly every kind of ball imaginable, usually at less than half of manufacturer's suggested list.  We also carry a fabulous selection of women's golf balls, senior's balls and optical yellow balls.

3 doz min order
Add $1.50 per doz shipping and handling.
No sales tax unless you live in Texas (Tex residents add 8.25%).
Most orders UPS delivered within 5 days.
All Credit Cards Accepted

Call 888-507-7566 to order by credit card, 281-561-5033 for check-fax orders.

Call us for a complete catalog or for additional information.

Call 8am to 10pm Central Time -Including Weekends- for information or to place an order.

Best Wishes For Great Golf
Dana Jones
Remember - The Ballman Saves You Money
888-507-7566

Fri Sep  8 00:32:25 EDT 2000: 0275




From call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com  Thu Sep  7 21:32:29 2000
From: call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com (call.800.507.7566 at urconvenience.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:32:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Need Any Golf Balls  ??
Message-ID: <200009080432.AAA08515@venus.urconvenience.com>

We Are Currently Offering Great Prices On All Our Titleist Products

Call Us For Additional Information.
                                                             Item #

Titleist Professional               $22.95 doz               RHS11T
Titleist Prestige                   $23.95 doz               RHS17T
Titleist Tour Distance              $19.95 doz               RHS13T
Titleist HP Tours                   $14.95 doz               RHS12T
Titleist HP Distance                $15.95 doz               RD31T
Tilteist HP Eclipse		    $16.95 doz		     RM32T
Titleist HVC                        $12.95 doz               RD32T
Titleist DT                         $11.95 doz               RM20T
Titleist Professional Blems         $69.95 10-doz            SP06TP
Titleist Mixed Blems		    $39.95 10-doz	     SP07TM

These are our superb premium quality golf balls, the finest quality we have available.  These are NOT X-OUTS.  Call us for more details.

Other great values include:

Strata                              $16.95 doz               RHS16T
MaxFli Revolution                   $19.95 doz               RHS15
Nike                                $19.95 doz               RMS21N
Taylor Made InnerGels               $23.95 doz               RD46TA
Precept MC                          $14.95 doz               RHS20P
Precept EV Spin or Distance         $14.95 doz               RMS24
Staff Titanium Distance or Spin     $13.95 doz               RD38W
Pinnacle Xtreme                     $ 9.95 doz               RD40P
Top Flite Magna                     $ 9.95 doz               RD34TF
Slazenger Raw or Spin               $16.95 doz               RD36S
Top Flite XL 2000-all models        $ 9.95 doz               RD35TF
Ultras                              $ 9.95 doz               RD37U
MaxFli MD			    $ 8.95 doz		     RMS26M
Pinnacle Gold			    $ 6.95 doz		     RD41PN
Top Flite XL			    $ 6.95 doz		     RD35TF
Prostaff			    $59.95 10-doz	     SP08PS

Call us if you don't see your favorite ball.

We have nearly every kind of ball imaginable, usually at less than half of manufacturer's suggested list.  We also carry a fabulous selection of women's golf balls, senior's balls and optical yellow balls.

3 doz min order
Add $1.50 per doz shipping and handling.
No sales tax unless you live in Texas (Tex residents add 8.25%).
Most orders UPS delivered within 5 days.
All Credit Cards Accepted

Call 888-507-7566 to order by credit card, 281-561-5033 for check-fax orders.

Call us for a complete catalog or for additional information.

Call 8am to 10pm Central Time -Including Weekends- for information or to place an order.

Best Wishes For Great Golf
Dana Jones
Remember - The Ballman Saves You Money
888-507-7566

Fri Sep  8 00:32:25 EDT 2000: 0275




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Fri Sep  8 02:06:59 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 02:06:59 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000908020659.00aa9200@idiom.com>

At 09:20 PM 9/7/00 -0400, Asymmetric wrote:
>I agree that voice using TCP has the drawbacks that you mentioned, however, 
>because of the other existing requirements such as CBC and File Transfer, 
>it is required that you have a reliable connection to get even the basic 
>functionality of the program to work.  I'd rather have a delay in hearing 
>the voice messages until the packets have arrived than decrease their 
>security by using ECB.

You can still do CBC with UDP.  You might want to look at hybrid solutions,
like basic connectivity and voice connections on UDP and separate TCP
connections
for data transfer, though that may be more trouble than it's worth.

...
>p196, pp2
>"While CBC mode recovers quickly from bit errors, it doesn't recover at all 
>from synchronization errors.  If a bit is added or lost from the ciphertext 
>stream, then all subsequent bits are shifted one bit out of position and 
>decryption will generate garbage indefinitely."
>
>I assume that losing an entire block worth of bits will cause as much havoc 
>as losing just one bit would.  If that isn't correct, I'd like to hear it..

There are synchronization problems you can recover from and ones you can't.
You need to stay aligned on the encryption-block barrier, e.g. 64 bits for DES
or 128 bits for some other algorithms.  If you lose that, you're toast.
But if you always pad your packets to multiples of the block size,
you don't have a problem with UDP, since packets either arrive or don't.
So if you lose a packet, then you've toasted the first 16 bytes of the next,
but the rest of the packet and the rest of the conversation are ok.  
With TCP, you don't lose packets, though you don't always have convenient 
mechanisms for keeping track of packet boundaries, but you're always going 
to write in block-size chunks anyway.


>
>>The rule of thumb is that you need at least twice as many bits of
>>DH as you need of secure session key for your application, and you need
>>at least as many bits of DH as you would need for RSA.
>>You wouldn't want to use fewer than 1024 bits of RSA these days,
>>so don't use fewer than 1024 bits of DH.  That's enough for multiple
>>128-bit keys.
>>There are various format proposals for turning the DH key into a session
key,
>>like using Hash(DHKey,YourIP,TheirIP,maybe-a-counter-or-Salt).
>>4096 may be overkill, but it depends a lot on how often you'll be rekeying
>>and how long you're willing to watch the CPU crunch to set up a connection.
>
>The D/H is going to be used just to generate a key to securely transfer a 
>4096 bit key for use in symmetrical crypto routines later in the program, 
>for actual encryption of the chat/voice/file data transfers.  Using 1024 
>bits of D/H is fine to generate a key-encryption key to just transfer the 
>4096bit key.  I chose 4096 because it's large enough to be used in any 
>symmetric crypto algorithm to max out it's key length.

Any symmetric algorithm will have maxed out by 256 bits, and most by 128,
though you may want different keys for your two directions.
So generating the DH key with 1024 bits is probably enough,
though it doesn't hurt much to do 2048 or 4096 -
no need for separately generating a key and shipping it.
In particular, DH takes advantage of both machines' sources of randomness,
which is a major win over something generated by one end
unless you've got a good reason for it.

>>If you don't have any other keying mechanism, you need to worry about
>>man-in-the-middle attacks.  A simple approach is to use PGP public keys
>>to sign the keyparts; that lets you reuse all the PGP infrastructure.
>>There are alternatives, at least for voice, like reading the bits of the
>>shared keys to each other.  See the PGPFONE docs for much discussion on
>>user interfaces - and think about how much of their code you can rip
>>off\\\\\\ reuse.
>
>Well, truth be told, everyone knows that there is the problem "If Mallory 
>is God.." which in this world simply means, if Mallory is your upstream 
>you're in some serious trouble.  He could just as easily intercept the PGP 
>keys and replace them with his own if they didn't already exist on the 
>server.. this would cause problems for keys signed outside mallorys realm, 
>say if you could distribute your key outside his available channels... 
>however, if you could do that, you could just as easily trade a PRNG and a 
>list of seeds, or even discuss whatever it is you mean to discuss over a 
>cup of coffee.. :)

Sometimes Mallory _is_ your ISP - even without Carnivore.
Public key technology only needs one untampered data transfer to happen,
and PGP has a lot more infrastructure for that than trading PRNGs.
Signing DH keyparts is a job for public-key signatures.

>>Also read the Photuris internet drafts - there's a lot of experience
>>on denial-of-service attacks that they've incorporated,
>>and it doesn't take much work to prevent most of them.
>
>Ah, sorry.. how did we get on the topic of denial of service?

By saying "I'm going to put this chat server on the Internet"....
Crypto has its own special denial-of-service flavors in addition to
the regular ones, and Photuris addresses a lot of it with minimal work.

>Delphi can call C routines no problem, I have two problems with GMP that 
>however have nothing to do with Delphi..
>
>First, It's GPL'd, or under a modified version of the GPL.  I find the GPL 
>to be distasteful and it forms a barrier more than a bridge to continued 
>software development.  The reason for this I think is pretty simple; the 
>GPL (I refer to the classic GPL.. I am not sure of modifications to it that 
>may have been made for it's application to GMP) has made it excruciatingly 
>clear that any program or library using any GPL'd source code must itself 
>be open source, and cannot be sold for profit, but only "at-cost". 

The "Library GPL" was written to address just that problem.
Stallman calls it the "Lesser GPL", because he doesn't like it (:-),
but LGPL says you have to distribute source code for the LGPL'd libraries 
you use or modify (or indicate where to download them) but doesn't GPLize the
code you wrote that isn't part of the libraries.  So you can use it in
your proprietary product without publishing your code, charge money for it,
etc.




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From not_so_anony_mous at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  7 19:50:41 2000
From: not_so_anony_mous at hotmail.com (not_so_anony mous)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 02:50:41 GMT
Subject: CDR: Re: BayFF Celebrates RSA Patent Expiration 9/11 7:30pm SFO Hyatt
Message-ID: 

The Shmoo Group is maintaining a list of patent expiry parties

    http://www.shmoo.com/rsa/

I don't see a Seattle party on the list. You should throw one :-)


:mous:


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From galt at inconnu.isu.edu  Fri Sep  8 02:17:23 2000
From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 03:17:23 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: membership
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


I'm glad to see LEOs do thnings like this, because it means that they
MUST have the real crimes all solved...

On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, Larry Levinson wrote:

> Hi. I'm trying to get information on NAMBLA and found your post on a random 
> search. I'm having trouble locating NAMBLA. The website seems to have been 
> stopped. I've written to someone else (a former secretary of the group) but 
> thought I'd try you as well.
> 
> Some close friends suggested it as a good place to join, chat and make 
> friends with similar interests.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Larry
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 

-- 
Galt's sci-fi paradox:  Stormtroopers versus Redshirts to the death.

Who is John Galt?  galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who!





From j16wilcox at aol.com  Fri Sep  8 04:51:01 2000
From: j16wilcox at aol.com (Son of top recruiter for Feb.)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 04:51:01
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <200009081150.e88BoJH14828@tot-tf.proxy.aol.com>

* Nutrition For Life International is a 16 year old NASDAQ network
  marketing company that has just officially opened up to Japan 
  on June 1st, 2000.

* Japan is currently the #1 country in network marketing.

* Because of NFLI's 4X7 Spillover matrix compensation plan and 
  our position under Jim Leyde (the man responsible for this Japan 
  launch) those who join will one day have the future of Japan in 
  their downline If you need more information on the 4X7 matrix 
  compensation plan, please visit the compensation plan section 
  of my NFLI Japan website or give me a call and I will explain.

* NFLI is the first of it's kind with a matrix type compensation plan 
  to have ever been introduced to Japan.  This is attracting massive 
  Japanese and American MLM leaders with large downlines.

* Jim Leyde has just placed full page, full color ads in the 3 most 
  popular MLM magazines in Japan.  Japan's #1 MLM magazine is 
  attracting 1,000,000 people every month.  Cutting Edge and 
  Business opportunities Magazine are attracting about 50,000 
  people per month.

* 75-80% of all Japanese adults are involved in some kind of 
  MLM/networking company.

* NFLI has 500+ products and they are introducing new products 
  each and every month.  NFLI is extremely serious about the quality 
  of their products therefor they offer a 90 day money back guarantee.  

* Car bonuses: If you have a total of 40 people on your 3rd level NFLI 
  will make payments on a brand new car for you.

* House payment bonuses: If you can recruit 10 people that can recruit 
  1 person each this makes you a platinum distributor.  If 4 others in 
  your downline can do the same NFLI will make payments on a brand
  new luxary car for you.

* $40 fast start bonuses 

* Average payout = 10% per level

* Required monthly purchase ($100/month)

* $199 to get started

* 800 860 0395

* Please reply if you are interested and allow me to either fax
  or mail you a the Japan Launch fax flyer/mailing I created. 
  Once you are a member I will then create a personalized 
  flyer for you.  Thank you and have a great day.  I am.

* http://www.nflijapan.com/184050
  http://www.nutritionforlife.com/184050

* Justin Wilcox
  (702) 564-0613 

*  (40+ guaranteed prospects for your MLM company/month) $100/month
   These people are only awair of the company, the products and the
   compensation plan.  Just wait until they see what we have here :)   

*  http://www.prospectplanet.net/jesager




From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Sep  8 02:10:55 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 05:10:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20000907075006.00813100@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <39B8AC5E.623850DE@ricardo.de>

David Honig wrote:
> >not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
> >a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
> >re-distributes these things.
> 
> So if you don't pay GEMA who *are* those folks with the guns?

GEMA will most likely sue you. but since GEMA isn't the government,
that's a civil case.





From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Sep  8 02:14:16 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 05:14:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <39B8AD2B.87C56044@ricardo.de>

Bill Stewart wrote:
> So does the proposed law require companies to pay GEMA
> if they make or sell anything in this category?

I'm afraid that is what is being proposed.
of course, similiar stuff has been proposed for a long time. the IP
industry is greedy, as we all know. and since IP is an artificial right,
created by law (copyright, among others), they need laws if they want to
move into new areas of business or extend their old ones. other people
innovate to grow, IP corporations buy new laws.



> If they don't pay, what happens?  Lawsuit?  Criminal prosecution?

lawsuit, civil, most likely.



> In the US, there are a couple of organizations, I think ASCAP and BMI,
>         (American Society of Composers, Artists, and Performers)
> that manage the intellectual property rights for most musicians.
> If you play music on the radio or do other public performances,
> you have to pay them their standard rates.  It's not mandatory -
> there are non-ASCAP musicians, and radio stations (particularly
> religious talk/music stations) that don't participate,
> but if you play music from their members on the radio without
> a license from them, they'll sue for copyright infringement.

that's pretty much the same situation, I guess.





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Fri Sep  8 05:16:52 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 07:16:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: AmEx offering disposable credit cards...
Message-ID: 


See CNN.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com  Fri Sep  8 06:52:11 2000
From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:52:11 -0500
Subject: CDR: Suck
Message-ID: <39B8EF0B.CC31572E@dev.tivoli.com>

http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/09/08/daily.html
-- 
   We shall not cease from exploration, And the end of all our
   exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the
   place for the first time.

                                          T.S. Elliot

   Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT
   James Choate                           jchoate at tivoli.com
   Senior Engineer                        512-436-1062
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: daily.html
Type: text/html
Size: 15337 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From brflgnk at cotse.com  Fri Sep  8 06:25:14 2000
From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 09:25:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: Amex throwaway numbers
Message-ID: <968419514.39b8e8ba72f39@webmail.cotse.com>

The Amex disposable number story reminds me to ask: has anyone on the list 
actually used their Blue card and reader to make a secure purchase over the web? 
Know anyone who has? 

(I'm almost tempted to apply for one just to get the free smart card reader, so 
I can hack on it)




From mdpopescu at geocities.com  Fri Sep  8 06:28:59 2000
From: mdpopescu at geocities.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:28:59 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <008a01c01999$331cf3c0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>



From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Sep  8 08:19:05 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 11:19:05 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Permutations in DES
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000908074717.007ec600@pop.sprynet.com>

At 08:02 PM 9/7/00 -0400, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>Does this method work for apps that are generating and testing lots 
>of keys or does the initial key generation step still have to be 
>undertaken?  The whole point of the blowfish technique was to 
>increase the attackers required effort.  It was basicly assumed that 
>valid users would simply store the expanded key.  Is their a link 
>somewhere to more information on this technique or could you expand 
>on it?
>-- 

Kevin if you haven't, read the DES Crack book, its online too.









  








From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Sep  8 08:19:09 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 11:19:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B8AC5E.623850DE@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000908080939.00794e70@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:10 AM 9/8/00 -0400, Tom Vogt wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>> >not quite right. it is NOT the government that collects, and this is not
>> >a tax. there's a "non-profit" organisation called GEMA that collects and
>> >re-distributes these things.
>> 
>> So if you don't pay GEMA who *are* those folks with the guns?
>
>GEMA will most likely sue you. but since GEMA isn't the government,
>that's a civil case.

The "right" of GEMA to sue is enforced by folks claiming to be from
your "State" who carry guns, no? 

A level of indirection doesn't change anything.  









  








From proff at iq.org  Thu Sep  7 17:51:06 2000
From: proff at iq.org (Julian Assange)
Date: 08 Sep 2000 11:51:06 +1100
Subject: CDR: echelon time-line
Message-ID: 


I'm developing an echelon `in the news' and `on-the-net' time-line for
the past 30 years. Not comprehensive, but 30 or so most important
rumours leaks/news-stories. Has anyone else done this? Does anyone
have personal suggestions as to the most significant events?

Cheers,
Julian.




From jf_avon at videotron.ca  Fri Sep  8 09:25:44 2000
From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:25:44 -0400
Subject: CDR: Fwd: QRN: Drug war bullying exposed
Message-ID: <0G0K0083MTNDO7@field.videotron.net>

==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
>Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 00:07:45 -0600
>From: Michael Miller 
>Subject: QRN: Drug war bullying exposed
>To: Quackgrass Roots Network 



     "...[T]he core reason the "war on drugs" completely
     dominates the official policies of so many nations,
     including [Canada's], is simple: The United States
     insists on it. ..."

     "The few officials and governments that do stray, even
     slightly, outside the prohibition orthodoxy are cajoled,
     manipulated, or bullied to get back in."

  "Why the War on Drugs has failed"
  Dan Gardner
  The Ottawa Citizen, Tuesday 5 September 2000
  --
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/columnists/gardner/000905/4090140.html

This Ottawa Citizen expose of US bullying is dynamite - as is its
expose of many other governments' spineless surrender to that
bullying. If you can read this horror story without mounting fury,
you'd better check to see if you still have a pulse and a mind.

If you think US' drug warriors limit their bullying to backward
countries, you think wrong. Canada. Australia. Holland. The World
Health Organization. Names, dates, details: the works!

Gardner and the Ottawa Citizen merit high praise for publishing
this report; that was a courageous act in view of the systematic
vindictiveness and widespread cowardice they have exposed.

It deserves the widest distribution.

Cheers,  Mike
--
 Michael Miller | Quackgrass Press | Quackgrass Roots Network
Subscribe to QRN: http://www.quackgrass.com/roots/qrn.html
            Aiming for the New Renaissance!



===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================






From superhits at excite.com  Fri Sep  8 12:46:35 2000
From: superhits at excite.com (superhits at excite.com)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:46:35 -0700
Subject: CDR: About your business
Message-ID: <000059b07fe1$00004e19$00004edb@209.63.112.236>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 2920 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From tom at ricardo.de  Fri Sep  8 10:12:24 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:12:24 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20000908080939.00794e70@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <39B91D3E.435949A5@ricardo.de>

David Honig wrote:
> >> So if you don't pay GEMA who *are* those folks with the guns?
> >
> >GEMA will most likely sue you. but since GEMA isn't the government,
> >that's a civil case.
> 
> The "right" of GEMA to sue is enforced by folks claiming to be from
> your "State" who carry guns, no?
> 
> A level of indirection doesn't change anything.

on the ideological level, no.
on the practical level - a lot. for example, you don't go to jail for
not paying GEMA.





From agl at linuxpower.org  Fri Sep  8 10:57:05 2000
From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:57:05 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:12:27PM -0400
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net> <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
Message-ID: <20000908195850.A1619@linuxpower.org>

On Thu, Sep 07, 2000 at 06:12:27PM -0400, Bill Stewart wrote:
> Servers are the price of scalability.

Correction - servers are the price of *easy* scalability. See Freenet for an
example of self-organizing networks that are efficient. But it isn't easy,
self-org networks are complex and subtle beasts. It depends on if the extra
work is worth it (I'm writing a Freenet node and I can tell you it's a
significant chunk of work)

AGL

-- 
The Street finds its own uses for technology.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 240 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Fri Sep  8 11:00:28 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:00:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: why cops act that way
Message-ID: <32de63ed613d429ba2a2c8815ce80394@melontraffickers.com>

Sep 8, 2000 - 09:55 AM 

            Man Who Scored Too High on Police
            Test Loses Federal Appeal 
            The Associated Press

            NEW LONDON, Conn. (AP) - A man whose bid to become a
            police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an
            intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit
            against the city. 

            The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a
            lower courts decision that the city did not discriminate
            against Robert Jordan because the same standards were
            applied to everyone who took the test. 

            "This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America
            against people of a certain class," Jordan said from his
            Waterford home Friday. "I maintain you have no more control
            over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your
            gender or anything else." 

            He said he does not plan to take any further legal action. 

            Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in
            1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125.
            But New London police interviewed only candidates who
            scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too
            high could get bored with police work and leave soon after
            undergoing costly training. 

            The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22,
            the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average. 

            Jordan alleged his rejection from the police force was
            discrimination. He sued the city, saying his civil rights were
            violated because he was denied equal protection under the
            law. 

            But the U.S. District Court found that New London had
            "shown a rational basis for the policy." In a ruling dated Aug.
            23, the 2nd Circuit agreed. The court said the policy might
            be unwise but was a rational way to reduce job turnover. 

            Jordan has worked as a prison guard since he took the test. 

          http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGI20J2XVCC.html                                             






From all at biosys.net  Fri Sep  8 11:33:56 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:33:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000908020659.00aa9200@idiom.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000908135730.00af9960@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 02:06 09/08/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>You can still do CBC with UDP.  You might want to look at hybrid solutions,
>like basic connectivity and voice connections on UDP and separate TCP
>connections
>for data transfer, though that may be more trouble than it's worth.

I've thought about it and it's definitely something to keep in mind.. 
another advantage to doing TCP from my standpoint is that it's easier to 
multithread.  The old version had some problems where on occasion it would 
stall for a while if it was doing a reverse lookup or something like that, 
and you wouldn't receive any more traffic until whatever operation was 
finished.  Threading the application allows any of the connections to stall 
or slow down without taking the rest of the application with it.. and 
threading UDP isn't nearly as easy.  Honestly, with the tools I have 
available, I don't even know if it's possible. :)

>There are synchronization problems you can recover from and ones you can't.
>You need to stay aligned on the encryption-block barrier, e.g. 64 bits for DES
>or 128 bits for some other algorithms.  If you lose that, you're toast.
>But if you always pad your packets to multiples of the block size,
>you don't have a problem with UDP, since packets either arrive or don't.
>So if you lose a packet, then you've toasted the first 16 bytes of the next,
>but the rest of the packet and the rest of the conversation are ok.
>With TCP, you don't lose packets, though you don't always have convenient
>mechanisms for keeping track of packet boundaries, but you're always going
>to write in block-size chunks anyway.

Ah ok.. so losing a block will just nuke the entire next block, and then it 
will recover?  I thought it would be a more serious problem than that, but 
I guess it makes sense that the feedforward wouldn't be able to affect any 
blocks beyond the immdiate next block.  Keeping the packets aligned on 
block boundaries makes so much sense that it's something I'm doing anyway 
regardless of this problem. :)

>Any symmetric algorithm will have maxed out by 256 bits, and most by 128,
>though you may want different keys for your two directions.
>So generating the DH key with 1024 bits is probably enough,
>though it doesn't hurt much to do 2048 or 4096 -
>no need for separately generating a key and shipping it.
>In particular, DH takes advantage of both machines' sources of randomness,
>which is a major win over something generated by one end
>unless you've got a good reason for it.

Well, the information I have is that Blowfish takes up to 448 bits, RC2 up 
to 1024 bits, Mars up to 1248bits, RC5 and RC6 both up to 2048 bits of key 
material.. is that incorrect?

The system currently supports Blowfish, Cast (128 and 256), Gost, IDEA, 
Mars, Misty1, RC (2, 5 and 6), Rijndael and Twofish for ciphers, and Haval, 
RipeMD160 and SHA1 for hashes.  The user chooses what cipher they want to 
communicate to the other users with, so incoming traffic can possibly use a 
different cipher on every connection, while outgoing traffic will all use 
the same cipher.

This brings up another question.  My document states that Cast256, IDEA(*), 
Mars, Misty1(*), RC5, and RC6 are all patented.. * = "Free for 
noncommercial use."  Is there a good repository somewhere with information 
on all the licensing issues/rules of these algorithms?



>Sometimes Mallory _is_ your ISP - even without Carnivore.
>Public key technology only needs one untampered data transfer to happen,
>and PGP has a lot more infrastructure for that than trading PRNGs.
>Signing DH keyparts is a job for public-key signatures.

True, and it is something that I've considered, but I would really like to 
stay away from any kind of server-based options as possible.  The fewer 
points of failure in the chain the better for this application.  I think it 
would suit me better to implement a public-key algorithm in the application 
itself, and then have each client maintain a list of all the public keys it 
has seen and allow the option to the user of signing them with it's own key 
and then sending them back to the owner.  This would allow the same 
failure-rate where only one transmission needs to occur untampered in order 
to allow for key validation.  Possibly in the future clients could exchange 
all their keys and then raise the trust level of a public key the more 
times they see it from different clients.  Since participation is entirely 
voluntary by both parties in both the overall application as well as the 
key signing/trust parts, then a DoS related to a single user forging a key 
and then connecting to many clients with many other clients isn't really an 
issue.  The lack of centralized communications means that the malicious 
user isn't going to have a "master list" to poison, or even an accurate 
view of all the clients in use.

This is all tenative however.. I haven't thought this far ahead until just 
now.  For now, I just want to get the D/H working and the key generation 
underway.

Ah, as an aside to something you mentioned before about using the built-in 
random functions with Delphi... Borland gives you full source to all the 
run-time libraries and components that ship with the language, so It's easy 
enough for me to just rewrite them to be cryptographically strong if I want 
to do that instead of writing auxiliary libraries.. why I would want to do 
that however, escapes me just now, but at least I can investigate the 
methods it is using and see how strong/weak they are.

>By saying "I'm going to put this chat server on the Internet"....
>Crypto has its own special denial-of-service flavors in addition to
>the regular ones, and Photuris addresses a lot of it with minimal work.

Ah ok..


>The "Library GPL" was written to address just that problem.
>Stallman calls it the "Lesser GPL", because he doesn't like it (:-),
>but LGPL says you have to distribute source code for the LGPL'd libraries
>you use or modify (or indicate where to download them) but doesn't GPLize the
>code you wrote that isn't part of the libraries.  So you can use it in
>your proprietary product without publishing your code, charge money for it,
>etc.

Ah ok, well I'm no lawyer.. I did look at the GMP license and it still 
appeared to be worded rather strangely.  If the library is linked in to 
your code then your code must also be open source.  If the library is 
instead loaded at runtime and also is not required for the application to 
function, it appears the rest of the source can be closed.. I refer to 
section 6, and section 7 subsection 1.

However it's worded, I've found a different math library who's only 
restriction is that if I decided to charge money for whatever I've written 
with it, I have to pay the author of the library an amount equal to the 
cost of one license for the application.  A lot more straightforward, and 
appealing than the legalese of the (L)GPL.

See ya 'round.


-------signature file-------

"'There comes a time when the operation of the machine
becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you
can't take part; you can't even passively take part, and
you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the
wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you've
got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people
who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free,
the machine will be prevented from working at all!"
-Mario Savio-  Founder of the Free Speech Movement.




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep  8 15:16:17 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 17:16:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000908140853.0081fc10@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: 


On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, David Honig wrote:

> 
> Ultimately law is backed by violence.
> 

And therefore it is bad....yadda, yadda, yadda

Bullshit. That is such a general statement as to be worthless.

The 'law' stems from the individual right to self-defence. Law is backed
by violence because that is what is is about.

To then try to portray this as the stem of human abuse of same is simply
abusive to the reader. People do not do violence on others simply because
laws exists. It is not unreasonable, to any reasonable person that is, to
expect a certain percentage of persons in 'the law' to abuse it. Where
else is the best place to be after all? As usual, the devil is in the
details. It isn't 'the law' that is the problem, but rather how as people
we allows it to be abused.

Your thesis is self-referential, inconsequential, and still born.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Sep  8 14:32:03 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 17:32:03 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: <39B91D3E.435949A5@ricardo.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000908140853.0081fc10@pop.sprynet.com>

At 07:09 PM 9/8/00 +0200, Tom Vogt wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>> The "right" of GEMA to sue is enforced by folks claiming to be from
>> your "State" who carry guns, no?
>> 
>> A level of indirection doesn't change anything.
>
>on the ideological level, no.
>on the practical level - a lot. for example, you don't go to jail for
>not paying GEMA.

Then why do people pay?  

Ultimately law is backed by violence.

Having, say, your restaurant license revoked by a bureaucrat in
an agency created by a committe empowered by elected officials does
not change the fact that Folks With Guns will haul you and your property
away if you operate without their permission.  

You "don't go to jail for not paying GEMA" but you do go to jail
for not paying fines for not paying GEMA, not showing up in court, etc.  

Don't pretend.








  










  








From sunder at sunder.net  Fri Sep  8 18:21:18 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 18:21:18 -0700
Subject: CDR: Check this out: http://www.antivore.com
Message-ID: <39B9908E.468B46D8@sunder.net>


http://www.antivore.com



-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From ravage at ssz.com  Fri Sep  8 16:33:53 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 18:33:53 -0500
Subject: CDR: ScienceDaily Magazine -- Reclaiming The Internet's Original Purpose
Message-ID: <39B97761.5CF073F9@ssz.com>

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/09/000904125555.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: 000904125555.htm
Type: text/html
Size: 24027 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From commerce at home.com  Fri Sep  8 16:10:02 2000
From: commerce at home.com (Me)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:10:02 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Check this out: http://www.antivore.com
References: <39B9908E.468B46D8@sunder.net>
Message-ID: <01a201c019e9$eb0372c0$0100a8c0@matthew>

----- Original Message -----
From: "sunder" 
> http://www.antivore.com

Easy-as-pie carnivore defeating email encryption?

"
How does Antivore work?

Antivore is a special application which sits between the user and
their mail server. The application is server-based which means
that as an individual you need to contact your IT department or
your ISP to request the encryption services that Antivore can
offer.
"

So I send my cleartext email to my ISP... who has been served
with a search warrant and a small black box... and they will
encrypt it, and then forward the cyphertext through their mail
server and THEN through the carnivore box?

I hope the FBI special agent assigned to my ISP was hired under
some sort of affirmative action programme.




From declan at well.com  Fri Sep  8 16:16:42 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:16:42 -0400
Subject: FC: Clinton administration takes on Napster in court case
Message-ID: 

The Clinton administration is siding with the entertainment industry
in its attempts to shut down Napster. It just filed a 37-page amicus
brief in the court case saying Napster can't use the Audio Home
Recording Act of 1992 (http://www.virtualrecordings.com/ahra.htm) as a
legal shield. The brief says "the activities of Napster's users do not
even arguably come within the terms of the statute" and the district
court's ruling should be upheld. The Justice Department, the Patent
and Trademark Office, and the Copyright Office signed the brief.  By
way of possible explanation, one of my colleagues has compiled
(http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,38528,00.html) a handy list
of entertainment industry contributions to Democrats. :)

-Declan

********

http://www.politechbot.com/docs/napster-amicus.html
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/napster-amicus.wpd


                          NOS. 00-16401 & 00-16403
  
                   IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
  
                           FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT
  
                            ____________________
  
                         A&M RECORDS, INC., et al.
  
                           Plaintiffs-Appellants,
  
                                     v.
  
                               NAPSTER, INC.,
  
                            Defendant-Appellant.
  
                            ____________________
  
      JERRY LEIBER, individually and d/b/a JERRY LEIBER MUSIC, et al.,
  
                           Plaintiffs-Appellants,
  
                                     v.
  
                               NAPSTER, INC.,
  
                            Defendant-Appellant.
  
                            ____________________
  
              ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
  
                  FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
  
                            ____________________
  
                BRIEF FOR THE UNITED STATES AS AMICUS CURIAE
  
                            ____________________
  
  
   DAVID O. CARSON DAVID W. OGDEN
       General Counsel Assistant Attorney General
       J. KENT DUNLAP MARK B. STERN
      
   SCOTT R. McINTOSH
  
   United States Copyright Office Attorneys, Appellate Staff
      
   Library of Congress
  
   101 Independence Ave. S.E. Civil Division, Department of Justice
  
   Washington, D.C. 20540 601 D Street N.W., Room 9550
      
   Washington, D.C. 20520
  
   ALBIN F. DROST
  
   Acting General Counsel Counsel for the United States
      
   JUSTIN HUGHES
  
   United States Patent and Trademark Office
  
   P.O. Box 15667
  
   Arlington, VA 22215
  
   Of Counsel
  

[...]
  
                            SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT
  
   Section 1008 of the Audio Home Recording Act does not protect Napster
   from the plaintiffs' claims of copyright infringement. Section 1008
   was adopted to address a very different phenomenon - the noncommercial
   consumer use of digital audio recording devices, such as DAT tape
   decks, to perform "home taping" of musical recordings. Napster's
   effort to bring itself within the ambit of Section 1008 flouts the
   terms of the statute and conflicts with the basic policies of the Act.
  
   1.
   Section 1008 prohibits actions for copyright infringement based on:
   (1) the manufacture, importation, or distribution of "a digital audio
   recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog
   recording device, or an analog recording medium"; or (2) "the
   noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making
   digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings." Although
   Napster insists that the activities of its users are protected by
   Section 1008, and that it therefore cannot be held accountable for
   contributory or vicarious infringement based on those activities,
   Napster's defense cannot possibly be squared with the actual terms of
   Section 1008.
  
   First, it is undisputed that Napster's users are not using any
   "device" or "medium" specified in Section 1008, and Section 1008
   applies only to consumer use of "such a device or medium." Second,
   when Napster's users create and store copies of music files on their
   computers' hard disks, they are not making "digital musical recordings
   or analog musical recordings" as those terms are defined in the Act.
   Third, Napster's users are engaged not only in copying musical
   recordings, but also in distributing such recordings to the public,
   and Section 1008 immunizes only noncommercial copying ("noncommercial
   use * * * for making digital musical recordings or analog musical
   recordings"), not public distribution. Fourth, unlike such copyright
   provisions as the fair use provision (17 U.S.C. =A7 107), Section 1008
   does not designate any use of copyrighted works as non-infringing; it
   merely bars "action[s] * * * alleging infringement" based on such
   uses. Assuming arguendo that Napster's users are otherwise engaged in
   acts of copyright infringement, nothing in Section 1008 purports to
   render those actions non-infringing, and hence the claims against
   Napster for contributory and vicarious infringement would remain
   unaffected even if Section 1008 did apply to Napster's users.
  
   2.
   The AHRA was intended by Congress to embody a compromise between the
   music industry on the one hand and the consumer electronics industry
   and consumer groups on the other. At the heart of that compromise is a
   quid pro quo: in exchange for allowing noncommercial consumer use of
   digital audio recording technology (Section 1008), the music industry
   receives financial compensation (Sections 1003-1007) and protection
   against serial copying (Section 1002). Permitting Napster to shelter
   itself behind Section 1008 would defeat this basic statutory quid pro
   quo: Napster's users would be permitted to engage in digital copying
   and public distribution of copyrighted works on a scale beggaring
   anything Congress could have imagined when it enacted the Act, yet the
   music industry would receive nothing in return because the products
   used by Napster and its users (computers and hard drives) are
   unquestionably not subject to the Act's royalty and serial copying
   provisions.
  
   Napster asserts that, despite the precision of the language in Section
   1008, Congress actually meant to provide immunity for all
   noncommercial consumer copying of music in digital or analog form,
   whether or not the copying fits within the terms of Section 1008.
   Nothing in the legislative history of the Act supports that argument.
   And nothing in RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia Systems Inc., 180 F.3d 1072
   (9th Cir. 1999), the decision on which Napster places principal
   reliance, supports the argument either. Section 1008 was not at issue
   in Diamond Multimedia, and nowhere does the case hold that Section
   1008 provides the kind of omnibus immunity for digital copying that
   Napster invokes here.
  
                                  ARGUMENT
  
    SECTION 1008 OF THE AUDIO HOME RECORDING ACT OF 1992 DOES NOT EXCUSE
                         NAPSTER FROM LIABILITY FOR
  
                           COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
  
   Napster asserts that Section 1008 of the Audio Home Recording Act
   provides its users with immunity from liability for copyright
   infringement and, in so doing, relieves Napster itself from any
   derivative liability for contributory or vicarious infringement. The
   district court was correct to reject that defense. Napster's
   invocation of Section 1008 is flatly inconsistent with the terms of
   the statute and the legislative policies that underlie the AHRA.
   Accordingly, if Napster is otherwise liable under the copyright laws,
   Section 1008 does not relieve Napster of liability.
  
   A. Napster's Immunity Defense Is Foreclosed by the Plain Language of
       Section 1008
      
   "The 'starting point for interpreting a statute is the language of the
   statute itself.'" Exxon Mobil Corp. v. United States Environmental
   Protection Agency, 217 F.3d 1246, 1249 (9th Cir. 2000) (quoting
   Consumer Product Safety Commission v. GTE Sylvania, Inc., 447 U.S.
   102, 108 (1980)). Napster's discussion of Section 1008 is notably
   selective about following this rule. Napster correctly points out that
   the introductory language of Section 1008 - "[n]o action may be
   brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright" - makes
   Section 1008 potentially applicable to any infringement action under
   Title 17, not just an action under the AHRA itself. But Napster
   conspicuously fails to address the remaining language of Section 1008,
   and makes no effort to explain how that language can be read to
   protect Napster's users or Napster itself.
  
   Napster's reluctance to come to grips with the statutory language is
   understandable, because the activities of Napster's users do not even
   arguably come within the terms of the statute. Not only does the
   language of Section 1008 foreclose Napster's immunity defense, but it
   does so in four separate and independent ways. Napster's argument thus
   depends on a wholesale disregard of what Section 1008 actually says.
  
   1. Napster's Users Are Not Using Any of the "Devices" or "Media"
       Covered by Section 1008
      
   Section 1008 identifies four specific kinds of products whose
   manufacture, distribution, and noncommercial use Congress wished to
   shield from actions for copyright infringement. Those products are
   "[1] a digital audio recording device, [2] a digital audio recording
   medium, [3] an analog recording device, or [4] an analog recording
   medium." 17 U.S.C. =A7 1008. Section 1008 prohibits actions for
   copyright infringement based on "the manufacture, importation, or
   distribution" of these four types of devices and media. Section 1008
   also prohibits actions for copyright infringement based on "the
   noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium" for making
   digital or analog musical recordings.
  
   Nothing in the language of Section 1008 purports to grant
   manufacturers, distributors, or consumers any immunity with respect to
   products other than the devices and media specified in Section 1008
   itself. To the contrary, if an action for infringement does not
   involve the specified devices or media, it falls outside the scope of
   Section 1008 altogether. By its terms, Section 1008 protects consumers
   only from infringement actions that are based on "noncommercial use
   * * * of such a device or medium" (emphasis added). If an infringement
   action rests on consumer use of other products, Section 1008 on its
   face has no applicability to such an action.
  
   In this case, the plaintiffs' copyright claims are not based on the
   use of any of the devices or media covered by the terms of Section
   1008. Napster's users exchange music by using personal computers to
   locate and transfer files from one computer hard disk to another.
   Neither a personal computer nor its hard disk constitutes "a digital
   audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog
   recording device, or an analog recording medium." Napster itself does
   not suggest otherwise.
  
   The terms "digital audio recording device" and "digital audio
   recording medium" are specifically defined in the Act. A "digital
   audio recording device" is defined, with exceptions not relevant here,
   as any machine or device "the digital recording function of which is
   designed or marketed for the primary purpose of, and that is capable
   of, making a digital audio copied recording for private use." 17
   U.S.C. =A7 1001(3) (emphasis added). A "digital audio recording medium"
   is defined (again with inapplicable exceptions) as "any material
   object * * * that is primarily marketed or most commonly used by
   consumers for the purpose of making digital audio copied recordings by
   use of a digital audio recording device." Id. =A7 1001(4)(A) (emphasis
   added).
  
   This Court has already held that the statutory definition of "digital
   audio recording device" does not reach personal computers and their
   hard drives. RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia Systems Inc., 180 F.3d 1072,
   1078 (9th Cir. 1999). Although personal computers are "capable of"
   making "digital audio copied recordings," neither they nor their hard
   drives are "designed or marketed for the primary purpose of" making
   such recordings. Ibid. For similar reasons, hard drives fall outside
   the statutory definition of "digital audio recording medium," since
   they are not "primarily marketed or most commonly used * * * for the
   purpose of" making such recordings. Unlike "digital audio recording
   device" and "digital audio recording medium," the terms "analog
   recording device" and "analog recording medium" are not expressly
   defined in the Act. Congress presumably had in mind the analog
   counterparts to digital audio recording devices and media - for
   example, traditional analog tape decks and analog recording tapes.
   Whatever the precise scope of these terms, however, they cannot
   encompass personal computers and their hard drives, because computers
   process and store information in digital rather than analog form.
   Thus, Napster users are not even arguably using any of the devices and
   media referred to in Section 1008.
  
   2. Napster's Users Are Not Making "Digital Musical Recordings" Or
       "Analog Musical Recordings"
      
   Section 1008 protects the noncommercial consumer use of digital and
   analog recording devices and media for making "digital musical
   recordings or analog musical recordings." 17 U.S.C. =A7 1008. Even if
   Napster's users were using the specified devices or media, they are
   not making "digital musical recordings" or "analog musical
   recordings." Their activities fall outside the scope of Section 1008
   for that reason as well.
  
   The Act defines a "digital musical recording" as "a material object
   * * * in which are fixed, in a digital recording format, only sounds,
   and material, statements, or instructions incidental to those fixed
   sounds, if any * * * ." 17 U.S.C. =A7 1001(5)(A)(i) (emphasis added).
   The definition goes on to exclude, among other things, "a material
   object * * * in which one or more computer programs are fixed * * * ."
   Id. =A7 1001(5)(B)(ii).
  
   Napster's users copy music files to their computers' hard drives. Hard
   drives store data of all kinds, from word processing files to
   multimedia files, and they ordinarily store computer programs as well.
   As a result, hard drives fall outside the statutory definition of
   "digital musical recording" in two respects: first, they are not
   objects in which "only sounds" are "fixed," and second, they are
   objects in which "one or more computer programs are fixed." See
   Diamond Multimedia, 180 F.3d at 1076 ("a hard drive is a material
   object in which one or more programs are fixed; thus, a hard drive is
   excluded from the definition of digital musical recordings").
  
   Unlike "digital musical recording," "analog musical recording" is not
   a defined term under the Act. However, just as a computer's hard drive
   cannot be an "analog recording medium" (see p. 15 supra), neither can
   it be (or be used to store) an "analog musical recording," because
   hard drives store data in digital rather than analog form. Thus,
   Napster's users cannot be claimed to be making either "digital musical
   recordings" or "analog musical recordings" - and if a consumer is not
   making a digital or analog musical recording, the terms of Section
   1008 do not provide him with any immunity.
  
   3. Section 1008 Provides Immunity Only for Noncommercial Copying, Not
       for Public Distribution
      
   The Copyright Act grants the owner of a copyright a number of distinct
   legal rights. See 17 U.S.C. =A7 106(1)-(5). The most widely known right
   is the right of reproduction - the "exclusive right * * * to reproduce
   the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords." Id. =A7 106(1).
   However, the Copyright Act also grants the copyright holder a separate
   and distinct right of public distribution - the "exclusive right * * *
   to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the
   public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or
   lending." Id. =A7 106(3).
  
   The plaintiffs assert not only infringements on the right of
   reproduction, but also infringements on the right of public
   distribution. In the proceedings below, Napster stated that it has at
   least 20 million users, all of whom are able to use Napster's service
   to access and download music files containing copyrighted sound
   recordings. When a Napster user makes the music files on his or her
   hard drive available for downloading by other Napster users, he or she
   is distributing the files to the public at large. Cf. Michaels v.
   Internet Entertainment Group, Inc., 5 F. Supp. 2d 823, 830-31 (C.D.
   Cal.1998); Playboy Enterprises, Inc. v. Webbworld, Inc., 991 F. Supp.
   543, 551 (N.D. Tex. 1997), aff'd mem., 168 F.3d 486 (5th Cir. 1999);
   Marobie-Fl, Inc. v. Nat'l Ass'n of Fire and Equip. Distributors and
   Northwest Nexus, Inc., 983 F. Supp. 1167, 1173 (N.D. Ill. 1997).
  
   To the extent that Napster users are engaged in the distribution of
   copyrighted works to the public at large, such activity falls outside
   the scope of Section 1008. The language of Section 1008 is directed at
   uses that infringe on the right of reproduction, not at uses that
   infringe on the right of public distribution. By its terms, Section
   1008 only bars infringement actions "based on the noncommercial use"
   of the specified products "for making digital musical recordings or
   analog musical recordings" - in other words, for making copies of the
   music. Section 1008 makes no reference, and provides no possible
   defense, to infringement claims based on the public distribution of
   copied works. Thus, even if it were proper to treat the use of
   Napster's service for the public dissemination of copyrighted music as
   a "noncommercial" consumer use, which is far from clear, it is not the
   use at which the terms of Section 1008 are directed - the "making [of]
   digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings."
  
   4. Section 1008 Does Not Transform Infringing Consumer Uses Into
       Non-Infringing Ones
      
   As the foregoing discussion shows, the language of Section 1008 cannot
   be read to encompass the activities of Napster's users. But even if
   Section 1008 did apply to Napster's users, it would not provide
   Napster itself with a defense to liability for contributory or
   vicarious infringement. That is because the terms of Section 1008
   address only whether consumers can be sued for infringement; nothing
   in Section 1008 addresses or changes whether they are engaged in
   infringement.
  
   When Congress has chosen to make particular uses of copyrighted works
   non-infringing, it traditionally has said so expressly. For example,
   the fair use provision of the Copyright Act provides that "the fair
   use of a copyrighted work * * * is not an infringement of copyright."
   17 U.S.C. =A7 107 (emphasis added). Congress has spoken with equal
   clarity regarding other uses. See, e.g., id. =A7 108 ("it is not an
   infringement of copyright" for library or archive to reproduce single
   copies of works under specified conditions); id. =A7 110 (specified
   performances and displays of works "are not infringements of
   copyright"); id. =A7 117 ("it is not an infringement" for owner of copy
   of computer program to make an additional copy for, inter alia,
   archival purposes).
  
   In contrast, Section 1008 of the AHRA conspicuously does not say that
   the activities it describes "are not an infringement of copyright."
   Instead, Section 1008 provides only that "[n]o action may be brought
   under this title alleging infringement of copyright" based on such
   activities. The legislative record indicates that this language
   reflects a deliberate decision by Congress to relieve consumers from
   the threat of copyright liability without altering the underlying
   contours of the copyright laws or resolving the legal debate over the
   legality of home taping. In the words of the Senate Report
   :
  
       [S]ection 1002 [now Section 1008] provides only that certain
       copyright infringement actions are precluded. The section does not
       purport to resolve, nor does it resolve, whether the underlying
       conduct is or is not infringement. The committee intends the
       immunity from lawsuits to provide full protection against the
       specified types of copyright infringement actions, but it has not
       addressed the underlying copyright infringement issue * * * .
      
   Senate Report at 52 (emphasis added).
  
   Thus, assuming for present purposes that Napster's users are engaged
   in copyright infringement, their actions would remain infringing even
   if Section 1008 were applicable to them, since Section 1008 does not
   purport to address the underlying issue of infringement. And if
   Section 1008 does not transform the actions of Napster's users into
   non-infringing uses, then it cannot provide shelter to Napster itself.
   In invoking Section 1008, Napster has argued that it cannot be liable
   for contributory or vicarious infringement if its users are not
   themselves engaged in infringement. Once it is recognized that Section
   1008 does not alter whether the consumer uses that it addresses are
   infringing, Napster's argument falls apart.
  
   It is noteworthy in this regard that Section 1008 expressly provides
   immunity not only for the specified noncommercial consumer use of
   digital and analog recording devices and media, but also for the
   manufacture and distribution of such products. Napster's argument
   assumes that the immunity conferred on consumers is sufficient by
   itself to preclude liability for contributory or vicarious
   infringement on the part of the firms whose products are being used.
   But if that were the case, then there would have been no reason for
   Congress to include distinct immunity protection for manufacturers in
   Section 1008 itself, and the manufacturer immunity language in Section
   1008 would serve no purpose. Napster's argument thus
   conflicts with the elementary principle that "legislative enactments
   should not be construed to render their provisions mere surplusage."
   Dunn v. CFTC, 519 U.S. 465, 472 (1997). The fact that Congress found
   it necessary to extend an express statutory grant of immunity to
   manufacturers, as well as to consumers, confirms that Congress did not
   regard consumer immunity from suit as sufficient by itself to insulate
   other parties from liability for contributory or vicarious
   infringement.
  
       B. Napster's Reliance on Section 1008 Is Inconsistent With the
       Policies Underlying the AHRA
      
   In Diamond Multimedia, this Court observed that it "need not resort to
   the legislative history [when] the statutory language is clear." 180
   F.3d at 1076. Given the clarity with which the language of Section
   1008 prescribes (and circumscribes) the scope of statutory immunity
   under the AHRA, and given Napster's manifest inability to bring this
   case within the language of the statute, resort to the legislative
   history of the AHRA is therefore unnecessary. Nevertheless, if
   recourse is had to the legislative history, it reinforces the
   conclusion that Section 1008 does not protect Napster. Far from
   advancing the policies of the AHRA, Napster's invocation of Section
   1008 is directly contrary to those policies.
  
   1. Napster's Invocation of Section 1008 Upsets the Quid Pro Quo That
       Underlies the Act
      
   The legislative history of the AHRA makes clear that the Act was
   intended by Congress to embody the compromise agreement reached in
   1991 between the music industry on the one hand and the consumer
   electronics industry and consumer groups on the other. See, e.g.,
   Senate Report at 34 ("the competing parties have, through negotiation
   and compromise, reached an agreement which all parties involved feel
   is equitable," and the legislation "reflects this agreement"); House
   Report at 13, reprinted in 1992 USCCAN at 3583 (the Act "preserves the
   essentials of the agreement").
  
   As explained above, the compromise underlying the Act involves a basic
   quid pro quo. In exchange for accepting the marketing of digital audio
   recording technology and the use of such technology for noncommercial
   home taping, the music industry receives financial compensation
   (through the Act's royalty system) and protection against serial
   copying. This quid pro quo was central to the agreement and the
   legislation that embodies it. See, e.g., Senate Report at 30
   (summarizing the purpose and basic elements of the legislation).
  
   Construing Section 1008 to protect Napster would mean repudiating,
   rather than preserving, the quid pro quo underlying the Act. On the
   one hand, Napster would be permitted to facilitate the copying and
   distribution of copyrighted sound recordings on a scale far surpassing
   the "home taping" that Congress foresaw when it enacted the AHRA. On
   the other hand, the products employed by Napster and its users -
   computers and their hard drives -- are not subject to royalty payments
   (by Napster or anyone else) and are not required to be equipped with
   anti-serial copying circuitry, because the royalty and serial copying
   provisions of the Act apply only to "digital audio recording devices"
   and "digital audio recording media," and as shown above, those terms
   exclude computers and hard drives. 17 U.S.C. =A7=A7 1002(a), 1003(a),
   1004; see p. 15 supra. As a result, the music industry would bear the
   burdens of the statute without receiving the corresponding benefits.
  
   The legislative history makes clear that the Act's exclusion of
   computers and hard drives was the product of a deliberate choice by
   Congress. See, e.g., Senate Report at 48 ("a personal computer whose
   recording function is designed and marketed primarily for the
   recording of data and computer programs * * * would [not] qualify as a
   'digital audio recording device'"). In invoking Section 1008, Napster
   is inviting this Court to countermand that legislative choice, and to
   do so in a way that undoes the reciprocal nature of the Act's digital
   recording provisions. That invitation should be declined.
  
   2. Section 1008 Was Not Intended To Immunize All Consumer Copying of
       Musical Recordings
      
   Section 1008 identifies with precision the consumer activity that
   Congress meant to shelter from copyright infringement suits: "the
   noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making
   digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings." 17 U.S.C.
   =A7 1008. Despite the precision of this language, Napster asserts that
   Congress actually intended to immunize "all noncommercial consumer
   copying of music in digital or analog form" (Napster Brief at 20),
   whether or not the copying comes within the terms of Section 1008. But
   Napster has identified nothing in the limited legislative history of
   Section 1008 that supports this argument or overcomes the explicit
   language of the statute.
  
   The following passage from the House Report on the Act is
   representative of the legislative history regarding Section 1008:
  
   Section 1008 covers one of the critical components of the legislation:
       exemptions from liability for suit under title 17 for home taping
       of copyrighted musical works and sound recordings, and for
       contributory infringement actions under title 17 against
       manufacturers, importers, and distributors of digital and analog
       recording devices and recording media. In the case of home taping,
       the exemption protects all noncommercial copying by consumers of
       digital and analog musical recordings. Manufacturers, importers,
       and distributors of digital and analog recording devices and media
       have a complete exemption from copyright infringement claims based
       on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of such devices.
      
   House Report at 24, reprinted in 1992 USCCAN at 3594 (emphasis added).
  
   The highlighted references to "home taping" suggest, not surprisingly,
   that Congress meant to address the problem that gave rise to the AHRA
   - the introduction and use of DAT tape decks and similar digital
   taping technology (see pp. 3-5 supra). There is no indication that
   Congress also meant to cover other kinds of devices and media that
   fall outside the terms of Section 1008. To the contrary, the
   legislative history reiterates the message conveyed by the language of
   the statute itself: Congress meant to "extend[] protection to users of
   such audio recording devices and media by prohibiting copyright
   infringement actions based on the use of such devices and media" to
   make musical recordings. Senate Report at 51 (emphasis added). In
   short, the legislative history confirms that Congress meant what it
   said in Section 1008 - and what Congress said cannot be reconciled
   with what Napster is seeking.
  
   3. The Legislative History of Statutes Other Than the AHRA is
   Irrelevant
  
   In construing the scope of Section 1008, Napster attempts to rely on
   the legislative history of two statutes other than the AHRA - the
   Record Rental Amendment Act of 1984 and the Computer Software Rental
   Amendment Act of 1990. See Napster Brief at 23-24. Napster argues that
   Congress's treatment of "commercial" lending of phonorecords and
   computer software under those two statutes is consistent with
   Napster's reading of Section 1008. The short answer is that this case
   involves the meaning of the AHRA, not the meaning of other statutes.
   Napster's invocation of Section 1008 cannot be sustained on the basis
   of Section 1008's own language and legislative history; a fortiori, it
   cannot be sustained by resort to the language and legislative history
   of unrelated statutes. The Record Rental Amendment Act and the
   Computer Software Rental Amendment Act were both enacted prior to the
   AHRA, and they address entirely different subjects. Neither their
   language nor their legislative history purports to address the meaning
   of Section 1008 in any way.
  
   C. Diamond Multimedia Does Not Resolve the AHRA Immunity Question At
       Issue in This Case
      
   Napster suggests that this Court's decision in Diamond Multimedia
   confirms Napster's reading of Section 1008. It does not. The meaning
   and applicability of Section 1008 were not at issue in Diamond
   Multimedia, and nothing that the Court decided in Diamond Multimedia
   in any way requires the Court to accept Napster's Section 1008 defense
   in this case.
  
   Diamond Multimedia
   involved a suit under the AHRA by the recording industry against the
   manufacturer of the Rio portable music player, a "Walkman-like" device
   that plays MP3 music files. The recording industry claimed that the
   Rio player is a "digital audio recording device" and therefore is
   subject to the Act's royalty and serial copying provisions. Based on
   that claim, the recording industry sought to enjoin the manufacture
   and distribution of the Rio player and to compel Rio's manufacturer
   (Diamond) to make royalty payments under the Act. This Court rejected
   the industry claim, holding that the Rio player does not come within
   the Act's definition of a "digital audio recording device" and
   therefore is not subject to the Act's royalty and serial copying
   requirements. 180 F.3d at 1075-1081.
  
   Diamond Multimedia
   was not an action for copyright infringement. Because Section 1008 of
   the AHRA applies only to "action[s] * * * under this title alleging
   infringement of copyright," it was facially irrelevant to Diamond's
   liability, and Diamond never invoked Section 1008 as a defense.
   Accordingly, the Court was not called on to decide whether Section
   1008 protected Diamond itself, much less whether or how Section 1008
   may protect defendants in other cases that (unlike Diamond Multimedia)
   involve claims of copyright infringement.
  
   Napster relies on a single passage from the Court's opinion in Diamond
   Multimedia:
  
   As the Senate Report explains, "[t]he purpose of [the Act] is to
       ensure the right of consumers to make analog or digital audio
       recordings of copyrighted music for their private, noncommercial
       use." S. Rep. 102-294, at *86 (emphasis added). The Act does so
       through its home taping exemption, see 17 U.S.C. =A7 1008, which
       "protects all noncommercial copying by consumers of digital and
       analog musical recordings," H.R. Rep. 102-873(I), at *59.
      
   180 F.3d at 1079 (emphasis in original).
  
   To the extent that this passage speaks to the meaning of Section 1008,
   it is no more than dictum, since Section 1008 was not at issue in the
   case. In any event, nothing in the passage is in any way inconsistent
   with the proposition that Section 1008 means what it says. The passage
   merely quotes excerpts from the House and Senate Reports regarding the
   purpose of the Act in general and Section 1008 in particular. As shown
   above, when the legislative history is considered in its entirety, it
   directly supports, rather than refutes, the conclusion that Section
   1008 does not protect Napster or its users. Accordingly, nothing in
   Diamond Multimedia provides refuge for Napster in this case.
  
                                 CONCLUSION
  
   For the foregoing reasons, the district court's holding that Section
   1008 of the Audio Home Recording Act does not excuse Napster from
   liability is correct and should be affirmed.
  
   Respectfully submitted,
  
   DAVID O. CARSON DAVID W. OGDEN
       General Counsel Assistant Attorney General
       J. KENT DUNLAP MARK B. STERN
      
   SCOTT R. McINTOSH
  
   United States Copyright Office Attorneys, Appellate Staff
      
   Library of Congress
  
   101 Independence Ave. S.E. Civil Division, Department of Justice
  
   Washington, D.C. 20540 601 D Street N.W., Room 9550
      
   Washington, D.C. 20520
      
   ALBIN F. DROST
  
   Acting General Counsel Counsel for the United States
  
   JUSTIN HUGHES
  
   United States Patent and Trademark Office
  
   P.O. Box 15667
  
   Arlington, VA 22215
  
   Of Counsel
  
  
   September 8, 2000
  
                         CERTIFICATE OF COMPLIANCE
  
   Pursuant to Fed. R. App. P. 29(d)and Ninth Circuit Rule 32-1, I
   certify that the attached amicus brief is proportionately spaced, has
   a typeface of 14 points or more and contains 7000 words or less.
  
   _________________________
       Scott R. McIntosh
      
                           CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
  
   I certify that on September 8, 2000, I filed and served the foregoing
   BRIEF FOR THE UNITED STATES AS AMICUS CURIAE by causing an original
   and 15 copies to be filed with the Clerk of the Court by overnight
   mail and by causing copies to be served on the following counsel by
   overnight mail and (where indicated) by fax:
  
   Carey R. Ramos
  
   Aidan Synnott
  
   Michael Keats
  
   Paul Weiss Rifkind Wharton & Garrison
  
   1285 Avenue of the Americas
  
   New York, NY 10019-6064
  
   (212) 373-3000
  
   (OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   Russell J. Frackman
  
   Jeffrey D. Goldman
  
   George M. Borkowski
  
   Drew E. Breuder
  
   Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp
  
   11377 W Olympic Blvd
  
   Los Angeles, CA 90064
  
   (310) 312-2000
  
   (OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   William M. Hart
  
   Eric J. German
  
   Frank P. Schibilia
  
   Carla M. Miller
  
   Hank L. Goldsmith
  
   Leon P. Gold
  
   Lawrence L. Weinstein
  
   Proskauer Rose LLP
  
   1585 Broadway
  
   New York, NY 10036
  
   (212) 969-3000
  
   Hadrian R. Katz
  
   (202) 942-5000
  
   Arnold & Porter
  
   555 Twelfth Street, NW
  
   Washington, DC 20004
  
   Steven B. Fabrizio
  
   1330 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
  
   Suite 300
  
   Washington, DC 20036
  
   202-775-0101
  
   Lisa M. Arent
  
   Melinda M. Morton
  
   Michael A. Brille
  
   Samuel A. Kaplan
  
   William Jackson
  
   Seth A. Goldberg
  
   Fenwick & West LLP
  
   Two Palo Alto Sq Ste 800
  
   Palo Alto, CA 94306
  
   650-494-0600
  
   (BY OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   Laurence F. Pulgram
  
   Kathryn J. Fritz
  
   Fenwick & West LLP
  
   275 Battery Street
  
   15th Floor
  
   San Francisco, CA 94111
  
   415-875-2300
  
   (BY OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   David Boies
  
   Boies Schiller & Flexner LLP
  
   80 Business Park Drive
  
   Suite 110
  
   Armonk, NY 10504
  
   (914) 273-9800
  
   (BY OVERNIGHT MAIL AND FAX)
  
   Albert P. Bedecarre
  
   Quinn Emanuel Urquhart Oliver &
  
   Hedges, LLP
  
   2479 East Bayshore Road
  
   Suite 820
  
   Palo Alto, CA 94303
  
   650-494-3900
  
   Hannah Bentley
  
   394 Scenic Avenue
  
   San Anselmo, CA 94960
  
  
  
   _________________________
  
   Scott R. McIntosh



----- End forwarded message -----



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLITECH -- the moderated mailing list of politics and technology
You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact.
To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html
This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


----- End forwarded message -----




From ppphones at lycos.com  Fri Sep  8 19:17:04 2000
From: ppphones at lycos.com (personal-pay-phones)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:17:04
Subject: CDR: I'm tired of getting SCREWED!!!
Message-ID: <200009090227.WAA03992@mail.virtual-estates.net>

Get back what you've put in!!!

WIN a personal pay telephone, go to http://www.personalpayphone.com

PAY telephones are the hottest collectibles today.

Functional and a great conversation piece.

Accepts coins or not!

Great for kids areas, great rooms, focal points, VERY RETRO-SHIEK!!!

CLICK HERE>>>http://www.personalpayphone.com<<


********


From Me at smtp11.bellglobal.com  Fri Sep  8 17:04:13 2000
From: Me at smtp11.bellglobal.com (Me at smtp11.bellglobal.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:04:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: Important Text  - Something I need to tell you.
Message-ID: <200009082356.TAA24431@smtp11.bellglobal.com>

We're not weird.................We're sexy!!!

http://205.232.74.175




This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301.per section 301, paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S.1618, http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html

Further transmissions to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by replying to this e-mail with the words "remove" in the subject line.










From gazzas at themail.com  Fri Sep  8 20:09:27 2000
From: gazzas at themail.com (gazzas at themail.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: The magic EMS program now special price! Bypasses your ISP !!
Message-ID: <200009090309.UAA16210@cyberpass.net>

Fantastic "EMS" the full version only $20 !! Save over $120 on 
this very special offer! 
EMS ("EXPRESS Mail Server") BYPASSES YOUR ISP. SEND YOUR ADVERTS 
TO THOUSANDS !! THE NO FLAME WAY !! Do whatever you want while EMS 
sends out your adverts to thousands for you ! 
You read about it ! Heard about it ! Wanted it but its been to 
expensive for you ! 
OK !OK ! we heard you ! Special for the this month only, We have 
now lowered the price to a magic \\$20 US// dollars instead of the 
advertised normal selling price of $149 US dollars. Now every one 
can afford to buy and use this fantastic program. 
Price for the EMS program is based on CASH only to help keep down 
the price AND to safe gard your Credit card security on the Web. 
We guarantee that the EMS program will be fowarded to you once 
payment is received at this office. 
Not sure,then email us for your full version DEMO copy first, 
you'll be so glad you did ! 
Mail cash or money order and include your email address to,
G.Tomlin 
45 Emperor Avenue 
Maroochydore 
Qld 
Australia 4558 





From reivesfamilly at alltel.net  Fri Sep  8 18:20:27 2000
From: reivesfamilly at alltel.net (Michael Reives)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:20:27 -0400
Subject: CDR: GSM?
Message-ID: <000a01c019fc$304ed6a0$5bd566a6@dell>

Please!  Any help will do because I have none.  I want to learn more about the sim card in the gsm phones.  I have the Maki pro and sim edit for kids but I dont have the procedure.  

If you dont know can you direct me to who does?

Thanks

skyjacker at mail.com 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 900 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From honig at sprynet.com  Fri Sep  8 20:33:29 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 23:33:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: 

At 05:59 PM 9/8/00 -0400, Jim Choate wrote:
>On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, David Honig wrote:
>> Ultimately law is backed by violence.
>> 
>
>And therefore it is bad....yadda, yadda, yadda
>
>Bullshit. That is such a general statement as to be worthless.
>
>The 'law' stems from the individual right to self-defence. Law is backed
>by violence because that is what is is about.

So this affects the morality/legitimacy of a so-called 'non-governmental'
tax-collection agency how? 

>To then try to portray this as the stem of human abuse of same is simply
>abusive to the reader. 

To imagine that paying GEMA is voluntary is delusional.



>Your thesis is self-referential, inconsequential, and still born.

So you don't like it then? 








  








From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sat Sep  9 01:44:18 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 01:44:18 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000908135730.00af9960@mail.megapathdsl.net>
References: <3.0.5.32.20000908020659.00aa9200@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000909014418.00a0be80@idiom.com>

>>Any symmetric algorithm will have maxed out by 256 bits, and most by 128,
>>though you may want different keys for your two directions.
>>So generating the DH key with 1024 bits is probably enough,
>>though it doesn't hurt much to do 2048 or 4096 -
>>no need for separately generating a key and shipping it.
>>In particular, DH takes advantage of both machines' sources of randomness,
>>which is a major win over something generated by one end
>>unless you've got a good reason for it.
>
>Well, the information I have is that Blowfish takes up to 448 bits, RC2 up 
>to 1024 bits, Mars up to 1248bits, RC5 and RC6 both up to 2048 bits of key 
>material.. is that incorrect?

Not incorrect, but 2**256 possible keys gets you into 
age-of-the-universe territory for cracking.


>This brings up another question.  My document states that Cast256, IDEA(*), 
>Mars, Misty1(*), RC5, and RC6 are all patented.. * = "Free for 
>noncommercial use."  Is there a good repository somewhere with information 
>on all the licensing issues/rules of these algorithms?

I'm not aware of one.  IDEA's "non-commercial" definitions have gotten
fuzzier over the years, and it's patented in lots of places.
Avoid Misty.  Several of the AES candidates had policies of
"it's patented now but if we're the AES winner you can all use it for free",
which means you won't really know licensing issues until NIST picks a winner.




				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From raferty at bellsouth.net  Fri Sep  8 23:10:19 2000
From: raferty at bellsouth.net (Raferty)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 02:10:19 -0400
Subject: CDR: Bumper sticker
Message-ID: <000801c01a24$a24eec40$0e823dd0@darkpoet>

Hello,
I found your site while searching for amendments, but couldn't see the bumper stickers page. They sound like what I am looking for so could you help? I have a web site of information for the public. I am trying to stop our government from misrepresenting our bill of wrights.
Thanks Herb Davis.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 693 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From all at biosys.net  Sat Sep  9 02:06:08 2000
From: all at biosys.net (Asymmetric)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 05:06:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000909014418.00a0be80@idiom.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000908135730.00af9960@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20000908020659.00aa9200@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907202226.00b11c68@mail.megapathdsl.net>
 <3.0.5.32.20000907150849.008ca7a0@idiom.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20000907002505.00b2fbf8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000909045532.00b184e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>

At 01:44 09/09/2000 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:



>Not incorrect, but 2**256 possible keys gets you into
>age-of-the-universe territory for cracking.

Well yes, but better safe than sorry.. you never know when the next 
breakthrough might come that makes anything under 256bits "weak."  Not too 
likely I know, but doesn't hurt to keep that in mind.

>I'm not aware of one.  IDEA's "non-commercial" definitions have gotten
>fuzzier over the years, and it's patented in lots of places.
>Avoid Misty.  Several of the AES candidates had policies of
>"it's patented now but if we're the AES winner you can all use it for free",
>which means you won't really know licensing issues until NIST picks a winner.

Ah.. I'll just have to keep digging myself.. maybe I'll put together a page 
of my own for this purpose.  It's aggravating having to dig all over the 
place for this kind of info.

What's the deal with Misty?


....signature....

PGP Key ID:
0xCCC57FD7

PGP Key Fingerprint:
446B 7718 B219 9F1E 43DD  8E4A 6BE9 D739 CCC5 7FD7

Available from ldap://certserver.pgp.com




From ppphones at lycos.com  Sat Sep  9 08:59:28 2000
From: ppphones at lycos.com (personal-pay-phones)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 08:59:28
Subject: CDR: I'm tired of getting SCREWED!!!
Message-ID: <200009091611.MAA22695@mail.virtual-estates.net>

Get back what you've put in!!!

WIN a personal pay telephone, go to http://www.personalpayphone.com

PAY telephones are the hottest collectibles today.

Functional and a great conversation piece.

Accepts coins or not!

Great for kids areas, great rooms, focal points, VERY RETRO-SHIEK!!!

CLICK HERE>>>http://www.personalpayphone.com<<

DNA evidence has proven so useful in police work that, the US Department
of Justice is developing a bank of DNA culled from ordinary house cats,
reports the SAN FRANCISCO EXAMINER.

No, there isnt a feline delinquency problem spreading across the US. It
turns out that criminals who own cats frequently have cat hair on their
clothes, just like law-abiding cat owners. Some of that cat hair winds
up at crime scenes, and can provide important clues to solving a crime
if it can be traced to an individual cat, and from there to its owner.
The DOJ is asking cat owners to voluntarily send in a sample of Fluffys
genetic material (although why the criminally inclined would do so is a
mystery).

Cat-based crime fighting has already borne fruit: A man in Canada was
convicted of murdering his ex-wife, based partially on the fact that
hair from his cat, Snowball, was found at the murder scene.  Snowball
was questioned and released.





From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep  9 07:33:34 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:33:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Languages and the Internet Forum LIST (fwd)
Message-ID: 



    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:10:16 -0400
From: "Karl E. Peters" 
Reply-To: orange at dns.list
To: "discuss at ador-doc.org" ,
    Domain Policy List ,
    "idno-discuss at idno.org" 
Subject: Languages and the Internet Forum LIST

Dear Friends,
    Seeing that languages, like UDRP, tends to generate a lot of smoke,
I have arranged for a special list called "Lingua at domain-owners.org" for
the purpose of running dialogues on the topic of languages and the
internet, both for those interested from a user standpoint and those who
stand to develop the technologies. (I think it is good if these groups
know each other!!!)
    As in the case of UDRP at domain-owners.org, it will be an open list
with a specific interest and all with sincere interest in the subject
are welcome to join in or simply lurk and glean ideas  Some of you are
like me and just intensely interested and others will be the technical
genius required to make it all come together, but all are welcome.

Auf wieder zehn...

Karl E. Peters
karl.peters at bridgecompanies.com






From emc at chao.insync.net  Sat Sep  9 09:47:11 2000
From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:47:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: FBI Profiles of "School Shooters"
Message-ID: <200009091647.LAA15429@chao.insync.net>

It's interesting to notice the not particularly subtle anti-youth bias in
the FBI's recently released profiles of people they allege are likely to
commit violence in schools.  Indeed, the terms used are very negative and
propagandistic ways of characterizing practically anyone who isn't
carefully controlled in thinking and behavior, denied free access to
information, and trained to be an obedient doormat for all authority
figures.

It would be very difficult for any student to not fit some of the factors
listed, unless he were the world's greatest Uncle Tom and kissed Massah's
ass on a regular basis while ignoring the screams of his fellow inmates
while pretending to enjoy the public school experience.

Let's look at how the FBI's factors might be expressed in more
conventional language.

"Student collects injustices and nurses resentments" - Student has
reasonable expectations that he and other students will be treated
decently, and remembers the names of teachers and administrators who have
a long track record of showing disrespect and contempt for students.

"Shows exaggerated sense of entitlement" - Expects the school system and
those who work there to be held accountable for the quality of service
provided.

"Signs of depression and a pathological need for attention" - Becomes
unhappy when he and other students are treated unjustly, and seeks to find
someone who will listen and remedy the situation.

"Student's relationship with parents is particularly difficult or
turbulent" - Student has high standards for how he is treated at home too.

"Parents accept or minimize pathological behavior, setting few limits and
possibly seeming intimidated by student" - Parents don't automatically
take the side of the school against their child when a disagreement
arises.

"Student has access to weapons and there is little monitoring of what he
watches on TV or the Internet" - The child's home environment is one where
privacy, freedom of information, and the Second Amendment are all
respected.

"Student is detached from other students, teachers, and school activities"
- Student has better things to do with his time, than spend 100% of it on
school-sponsored busy work.

"School does little to prevent or punish disrespectful behavior or
bullying" - School does not interfere in student socialization unless an
obviously serious problem arises.

"A pecking order exists among students, who also observe a code of silence
about telling staff of their concerns about other students" - Students
refuse to cooperate in ratting out people to the school's profiling
program.

"Access to computers and the Internet is unsupervised" - The School
follows the guidelines of the American Library Association.

"Student is intensely and exclusively involved with a group that shares a
fascination with violence and extremist beliefs" - Student refuses to
criticize Columbine shooters in school-ordered classroom writing
assignment, given with the ulterior motive of prying into student's
political beliefs.

Indeed, the wording of most of these things is exactly like what spews out
of the mouth of the typical public school teacher, when a student or the
parent of a student has a grievance with the school.  Complaining about
anything is "attention seeking," getting pissed off is "nursing
resentments," the parent defending the child is "the child running the
home and no limits being set," etc,etc,etc...

The whole attitude expressed by the government here is a really great
argument for private schooling or homeschooling.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From james at echeque.com  Sat Sep  9 10:39:47 2000
From: james at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:39:47 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: GA-CAT-CA
In-Reply-To: <972fe528f885bac57d17331e4124df52@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000909103839.02544ee8@shell11.ba.best.com>

     --
At 09:20 AM 9/9/2000 -0700, A. Melon wrote:
 >  Some of that cat hair winds up at crime scenes, and can provide
 >  important clues to solving a crime if it can be traced to an
 >  individual cat, and from there to its owner. The DOJ is asking cat
 >  owners to voluntarily send in a sample of Fluffys genetic material

No sillier than gun control laws.

     --digsig
          James A. Donald
      6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
      Qvi+22lHbYjc/uDiq/wCio5RxLzD35y01dFGfFbT
      4unQ/SkRlOCityuei6yEbm2s1ulzWrZ+vnkyN8rIT




From givolont at tin.it  Sat Sep  9 02:40:20 2000
From: givolont at tin.it (Anselmo)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 11:40:20 +0200
Subject: CDR: Ebonite
Message-ID: <007801c01a41$fa01eb00$9c1ed8d4@tin.it.Clubnet.tin.it>

hhttp://space.tin.it/scienza/gvolonta/ebanite
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 410 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sat Sep  9 11:46:40 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:46:40 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: GA-CAT-CA
References: <4.3.1.2.20000909103839.02544ee8@shell11.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <39BA8580.542F61CF@acmenet.net>

"James A. Donald" wrote:
> At 09:20 AM 9/9/2000 -0700, A. Melon wrote:
>  >  Some of that cat hair winds up at crime scenes, and can provide
>  >  important clues to solving a crime if it can be traced to an
>  >  individual cat, and from there to its owner. The DOJ is asking cat
>  >  owners to voluntarily send in a sample of Fluffys genetic material
> 
> No sillier than gun control laws.

Potentially even more infringing on rights, though, at least in the
US. We have the 2nd Amendment, which keeps some of the police
state behavior at bay. I can't think, offhand, of any provision in the
US Constitution which would prevent City Hall from mandating a hair
sample from every pet. New York constitution neither, though that's so
cumbersome and poorly organized that there might be something tucked
away.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Sat Sep  9 12:02:09 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 15:02:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: StoN, Diffie-Hellman, other junk..
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000908135730.00af9960@mail.megapathdsl.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20000909045532.00b184e8@mail.megapathdsl.net>
Message-ID: <39BA8926.4140BD89@acmenet.net>

Asymmetric wrote:
...
> What's the deal with Misty?

You're supposed to play it for me.

Was that a personal note to Bill Stewart, or did my mail server
hiccup?

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep  9 13:32:32 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 15:32:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: UK Crypto Meet (fwd)
Message-ID: 



    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:09:22 +0100
From: Ben Laurie 
To: Cryptography , Coderpunks ,
    UKCrypto List 
Subject: UK Crypto Meet

I intend to arrange a short Cypher/Coderpunks-style meeting in London
during ApacheCon, which is 23-25th October at the Olympia Conference
Centre.

The main purpose of the meeting will be to discuss whether we should
have real crypto meetings in the London area, and how/where/when to do
that.

If anyone plans to come, then let me know (I'll need to know numbers so
I can book a room). If anyone cares which day/time, let me know. If
anyone wants to talk about anything in particular, let me know.

If no-one plans to come, I'll give up on the idea, so do tell me if you
are up for it!

Cheers,

Ben.

--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html

Coming to ApacheCon Europe 2000? http://apachecon.com/




From B23655 at fpmqudftct.monsterice.com  Sat Sep  9 13:34:08 2000
From: B23655 at fpmqudftct.monsterice.com (B23655 at fpmqudftct.monsterice.com)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 15:34:08 -0500
Subject: CDR: Investors Have Money!  Looking for Additional Investors!
Message-ID: 


Hello!

Are you an investor or would you be interested in investing in startup or 
existing businesses?

Are you looking for an investor for your company... please fill out 
questionnaire and appropriate fields! ALL QUESTIONS MUST BE COMPLETED THAT 
PERTAIN TO YOUR SITUATION!

W e'll put the investors in contact with companies needing capital 
investments.

All you have to do is fill out this questionnaire and fax it to us and we 
will match your investment interests with companies seeking investors.

Here is a sample of the areas investors are needed: 

Portals, Internet Technologies, Real Estate Investment, Foreclosures, 
Mortgage, Online Malls, Telecommunications, Business Startups, Business 
Expansion, and etc.


Company Name: _______________________________

First name: ___________________________________

Last name: ___________________________________

Street: _______________________________________

City: ________________________________________

State: _______________________________________

Country: _____________________________________

Zip Code: ______________________________

Email Address: _______________________________

Best Time to reach you?: _________________

What is your Time Zone?: ________________

Phone: ________________________________

Cell phone: ____________________________

Fax: __________________________________

Preferred Method of contact:  Phone  Email  Fax

How Much Willing to Invest? $______________

Terms: ________________________________

Venture Capital: Yes or No

Loans: Yes or No					

Grants: Yes or No

Please Specify Investment of interest: 
_______________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________
_

______________________________________________________________________________
_

______________________________________________________________________________
_
You can specify or just select ALL investments!


Signature: ________________________________________ Date: 
_________________________

This information is confidential and WILL NOT BE RESOLD or devulged without a 
subpoena. You will only be contacted by investment interest.  We guarantee you 
will not be contacted unless you specify the interest area.

Looking for an Investor?: Yes or No

What kind of business venture?: ___________

______________________________________

How many Yrs. in Business: ______________

Purpose: ______________________________

______________________________________


Please Fax This application to 1-309-414-6969  Please do not respond to this 
email because a human will not look view it. Thanks!




From steve at itagain2069.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Sep  9 16:43:14 2000
From: steve at itagain2069.freeserve.co.uk (steven miller)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 16:43:14 -0700
Subject: CDR: RE: Dead Diana
Message-ID: <000701c01ab7$b9b8b080$2fdd883e@srm>

Hi mate

So how do I view pictures of Diana in the wreckage?

Cheers

Steve
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 566 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From eteam2000 at bigfoot.com  Sat Sep  9 15:39:20 2000
From: eteam2000 at bigfoot.com (Elan 1)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 17:39:20 -0500
Subject: CDR: Tick Tock
Message-ID: <200009092139.OAA07339@cyberpass.net>

Hello,
I have a Question for you. Are you in a work a day Tick-Tock punch the clock 
job, or working countless hours in an Affiliate or MLM program and not receiving 
the Financial Income you were promised?

Don't feel bad, you are not alone. May of us have been on that same dead end 
road. 

If your Desire is too be Debt Free, Prosperous and Live Life Abundantly......... 
I have the Key That will open the door, to Your BluePrint to Prosperity...

This is NOT and Affilate Program, NOT an MLM, It is not a formal business or 
any type of business enity. 
We are a group of like minded individuals that wish to take charge of our lifes 
and have our money working for us, instead of us working for our money. We All 
Desire to  live a Debt Free, Abundant and Prosperous Life.

If you are ready to step outside the "Box" and Live A Debt Free, Abundant and 
Prosperous Life rather continue in the Tick-Tock World then take the 1st step 
now and  email me at: 
eteam2000 at bigfoot.com?subject=InfoOutsideTheBox



I received your email as a person interested  changing your financial future. 
If I received your email in error please disregard.
There is no need to request to be removed. This is the only message you will 
receive and then you will be deleted from our data base.
*******************************************************************
Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th U.S. Congress, 
this letter can not be considered spam as long as we include: 
Contact information & a Remove Link (e-mail address)   
To be removed from future mailings, follow the instructions below.
**********************************************************************
However if you desired to send a remove request 
Mailto:eteam2000 at bigfoot.com?subject=BoxRemove 




From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Sat Sep  9 16:55:17 2000
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred  Guerin)
Date: Sat,  9 Sep 2000 18:55:17 -0500
Subject: CDR: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
Message-ID: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net>

?

cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.

Has there been failure/problems with the algebra.com server, or is there known reasons for these strange messages rather than the relay?

(I do not know the scope of this problem, nor if CDR admins are aware of the problem, hopefully so, if not, I have a nice log of 50 or so messages from the algebra.com server with null content and otherwise useless purpose :) )

(Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)

-WLG





From billp at nmol.com  Sat Sep  9 18:20:01 2000
From: billp at nmol.com (billp at nmol.com)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:20:01 -0600
Subject: CDR: who is masanori fushimi
Message-ID: <39BAE1C1.762B6A66@nmol.com>

I just did a who is on masanori fushimi in google.
http://www.google.com/search?q=who+is+masanori+fushimi

I think we should do some positive stuff

http://share.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/load1.html
http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/load2.htm

I despise what they did.

NSA lawsuit 1   2   3      Thursday July 27, 2000 09:53

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Don Hewitt: "a randy old goat" Tuesday August 22, 2000 10:56 60 Minutes
to Detonation Don Hewitt sex scandal. 1  Don Hewitt and the Iranian
slaughter. Don Hewitt and the NSA 1



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secret Compartmented Information  1   2   Thursday August 24, 2000 14:39

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds   0

History for the NSA FOIA lawsuit
Appeals process tutorial   Saturday February 5, 2000 12:32
Docket    Sunday February 27, 2000 13:34

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/

Be kind of fun to send them to the Evin for question and answer time.

But I'm on to other things

http://www.geocities.com/computersystemsdocumentation/








From ravage at ssz.com  Sat Sep  9 17:34:19 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 19:34:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
In-Reply-To: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: 


I haven't seen any problems. No empty messages or such. No bounces, no
unavailable hosts, etc.

Probably need to drop Igor a line...

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Wilfred  Guerin wrote:

> ?
> 
> cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.
> 
> Has there been failure/problems with the algebra.com server, or is there known reasons for these strange messages rather than the relay?
> 
> (I do not know the scope of this problem, nor if CDR admins are aware of the problem, hopefully so, if not, I have a nice log of 50 or so messages from the algebra.com server with null content and otherwise useless purpose :) )
> 
> (Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)
> 
> -WLG
> 
> 




From umbros68 at one.net.au  Sat Sep  9 05:16:02 2000
From: umbros68 at one.net.au (scott mckay)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:46:02 +0930
Subject: CDR: hey whats this site !@
Message-ID: <000801c01a57$b9b815e0$6e5d65cb@default>

HEY THERE IS THIS A SITE FOR CREDIT CARS LET ME KNOW THANKS UMBROS68 at ONE.NET.AU 

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 421 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From matt at investigativeprofessionals.com  Sun Sep 10 00:14:20 2000
From: matt at investigativeprofessionals.com (Matt James)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 00:14:20
Subject: CDR: Directory of Investigative Professionals
Message-ID: <200009100416.VAA22088@cyberpass.net>



Good Day,

We invite you to list your business in the all new "Directory of
Investigative Professionals," a global register of professional
investigators, expert services, security and equipment specialists,
associations, and publications.

During the next three months, we will personally invite more than 13,000
professional investigators to list their firms in this unique Internet
guide.  Take advantage of this timely opportunity to advertise your
company for free!  Great exposure to the people most likely to buy your
merchandise.

Your "listing" is no ordinary "listing."  You get an entire Web page to
present your company and list your product  lines.  A free Web page for
three months!  After that you pay just $10 per month.

Change your information on-line, anytime.  Add monthly specials, announce new products.

Here is the link to the home page:
http://www.InvestigativeProfessionals.com

Here is the direct link to sign up:
http://investigativeprofessionals.com/register/index.html

Sincerely,

Matt James

Director of Advertising & Member Relations.
matt at investigativeprofessionals.com


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~

I choose to not list my company in the "Directory of Investigative
Professionals,":
http://investigativeprofessionals.com/remove.htm

 




From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com  Sat Sep  9 21:34:34 2000
From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 00:34:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: Congratulations, on your $25.00 USD win!
Message-ID: <200009100427.VAA21566@toad.com>

You are a winner !!!

Your email was randomly selected from our opt-in lists and you won $25.00 USD
in real casino chips from Click1000000 Casino. Why are they giving away money you ask? 
Simple...they want you to discover what 1,000's of other people just like you 
already know...online gambling at Click1000000 Casino is fast-paced, interactive and a 
whole lot of fun.

But that's not all, they are also giving away fabulous instaprizes and bonuses
during the download. So don't wait. Click on the link below to collect your 
$25.00 prize now.


          http://www.click1000000.com/100000/collect.htm



******************************************************************************
Delivered by Segasolution to referrals and opt-ins only. All remove requests
are honored. All players must be 18 years and over. Bonus dollars are only
available to credit card depositors. Click1000000 Casino guarantees minimum wins. 
Good luck!

******************************************************************************

                                 Remove
                      mailto:remove_ at china.com




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Sep 10 04:23:10 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:10 -0700
Subject: CDR: test: ignore: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
In-Reply-To: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000910042310.00a92170@idiom.com>

You sent your message to toad.com; I'm trying this through algebra.com.

At 06:55 PM 9/9/00 -0500, "Wilfred  Guerin"  wrote:
>?
>
>cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from
owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.
>
>Has there been failure/problems with the algebra.com server, or is there
known reasons for these strange messages rather than the relay?
>
>(I do not know the scope of this problem, nor if CDR admins are aware of
the problem, hopefully so, if not, I have a nice log of 50 or so messages
from the algebra.com server with null content and otherwise useless purpose
:) )
>
>(Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)
>
>-WLG
>
>
>
>
>
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From joyce at youpy.fr  Sun Sep 10 01:23:33 2000
From: joyce at youpy.fr (joyce at youpy.fr)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:33 -0400
Subject: CDR: Break the Chains of Everyday Employment                         22441
Message-ID: <000058250f7e$00004742$000057a9@server1.fesco.co.nz>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 10265 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Sun Sep 10 04:30:21 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:30:21 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: test: ignore: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction? - Seems to work!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000910042310.00a92170@idiom.com>
References: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000910043021.007a7d90@idiom.com>

I don't know if algebra's sending out bad messages, but 
this one worked fine.  I'm using cypherpunks at cyberpass.net as my cpunks feed,
so that says it's getting between those two just fine.

At 04:23 AM 9/10/00 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>You sent your message to toad.com; I'm trying this through algebra.com.
>
>At 06:55 PM 9/9/00 -0500, "Wilfred  Guerin"  wrote:
>>?
>>
>>cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from
>owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.
...
>>(Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)



Headers if you want them:
=====================================
Return-Path: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Received: from wormwood.pobox.com (localhost.pobox.com [127.0.0.1])
	by wormwood.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6DC47297B
	for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:25:35 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [216.34.245.2])
	by wormwood.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 3B0A972986; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:25:22 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from majordom at localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id
EAA29103 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id
EAA29079 for cypherpunks at infonex.com; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from cyberpass.net (cyberpass.net [216.34.245.3]) by
sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA29064 for
; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.virtual-estates.net (cpunks at video-collage.com
[160.79.196.177]) by cyberpass.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA08789 for
; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:25:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
	by mail.virtual-estates.net (8.9.3+3.2W/8.9.1) id HAA04885;
	Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:21:22 -0400 (EDT)
X-Authentication-Warning: video-collage.com: Processed from queue
/var/spool/mqueue-majordomo
X-Authentication-Warning: video-collage.com: Processed by cpunks with -C
/usr/local/majordomo/sendmail.cf
Received: from smile.idiom.com ([209.209.13.26])
	by mail.virtual-estates.net (8.9.3+3.2W/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04875
	for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 07:21:20 -0400 (EDT)
X-Relay-IP: 209.209.13.26
Received: from billstewart (sji-ca5-13.ix.netcom.com [209.109.234.13])
	by smile.idiom.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA88959
	for ; Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:14 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000910042310.00a92170 at idiom.com>
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:23:10 -0700
To: cypherpunks at algebra.com
From: Bill Stewart 
Old-Subject: test: ignore: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
In-Reply-To: <200009091855.AA2643394660 at mail.ev1.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject:  test: ignore: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
Precedence: first-class
Reply-To: Bill Stewart 
X-List: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net
X-UIDL: 078ec938d46bf0807ff8995691e7af79

======================


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Sun Sep 10 06:32:17 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:32:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Test - No Reply
Message-ID: 


1

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From webmaster at rgh-hgh-anti-aging.com  Sun Sep 10 07:50:58 2000
From: webmaster at rgh-hgh-anti-aging.com (webmaster at rgh-hgh-anti-aging.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:50:58 -0500
Subject: CDR: You have just WON A FREE Commercial Website!
Message-ID: <200009101450.JAA32448@matuta.host4u.net>

You have just WON A FREE Commercial Website!
Go to http://www.futuro-group.com/intl_rep.html

Get 2.500 Unique Hits for FREE.
Are you a good Web designer but nobody visits your WebPages? Now we will 
give away for qualified Winning/FREE/Paid Affiliates over 2.500 Unique Hits 
in one week/month. 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You do not need to remove your email address from our mail list!
At any time by clicking on the link provide below we will add you to our
NEW DATABASE!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are cleaning up our old database. This is not a Spam and we will not place you again on our NEW Database.

If you are a registered FUTURO Member with a FUTURO Website please use the following URL to update your details:
https://assoctrac.com/2.0/associates

If you prefer to continue to be listed with the FUTURO TOTAL SYSTEM please go to the below indicated Links and just click on them and the according actions will be taken.

With best regards
Mit freundlichen Gr|_en
Saludos Cordiales

Dr. Michael Unger
International Strategic Marketing Group
FUTURO GROUP Inc.   
     


For more information: http://www.futuro-group.com/HGH-Futuro/products.htm 
Addresses:

Subscribe: recom-subscribe at egroups.com

Post message for FREE: recom at egroups.com

Unsubscribe: recom-unsubscribe at egroups.com

List owner: recom-owner at egroups.com

URL to the FUTURO Classified page: http://www.futuro-group.com/Dept.DPM/Classified-Club-Online/Web-Autobots/adlandpro.htm

URL to the Dept.HGH-Futuro page: http://www.futurocom.net/Dept.FUTURO-Promo/index.htm

Phone to FUTURO:+1-800-883-9047 or direct to:-1-407-240-8464
FAX to FUTURO:+1-800-883-9047 or direct to:-1-407-240-8464
FUTURO Europe+34-952-663668 email: FG.EU at futurocom.net




From ichudov at algebra.com  Sun Sep 10 08:57:49 2000
From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 10:57:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Algebra.com Dysfunction?
In-Reply-To: <200009091855.AA2643394660@mail.ev1.net> from "Wilfred  Guerin" at Sep 09, 2000 06:55:17 PM
Message-ID: <200009101557.KAA11175@manifold.algebra.com>

I just checked it, seemslike it's working fine.

next time please Cc: your message to ichudov at algebra.com. I am busy
developing www.algebra.com and do not read this list regularky.

igor


igor

Wilfred  Guerin wrote:
> 
> ?
> 
> cyph relay CDR on Algebra.com has been sending null messages from owner-etc since Friday the 8th, 13:42 cst last coherent message.
> 
> Has there been failure/problems with the algebra.com server, or is there known reasons for these strange messages rather than the relay?
> 
> (I do not know the scope of this problem, nor if CDR admins are aware of the problem, hopefully so, if not, I have a nice log of 50 or so messages from the algebra.com server with null content and otherwise useless purpose :) )
> 
> (Since Algebra.com is sending out null messages, please respond directly)
> 
> -WLG
> 
> 



	- Igor.




From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Sep 10 09:47:36 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:47:36 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: GA-CAT-CA
In-Reply-To: <972fe528f885bac57d17331e4124df52@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000910094601.0081ad30@pop.sprynet.com>

At 12:21 PM 9/9/00 -0400, A. Melon wrote:
>DNA evidence has proven so useful in police work that, the US Department
>of Justice is developing a bank of DNA culled from ordinary house cats,
>reports the SAN FRANCISCO EXAMINER.

I had the misfortune to awaken to an NPR report about this.  What they
are assembling is not a full sequencing of Felix (first they'll do
mice or chimps, after people) but a map of 'markers', which are the 
little fragments that individuals have or don't have.  They need to
know how these are distributed in catdom and vary between the races of cats
---just like they do for humans (the one-in-a-zillion paternity- or
forensic- type stats are conditional on race).  

Clearly cypherpunks need to pass around a bowl of cat hair at the next
meeting... give a little, take a little.. the host isn't allergic, is he?












  








From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Sep 10 10:00:09 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:00:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: good faith distraction material
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000910095839.008278b0@pop.sprynet.com>

	
One of the studys more unusual recommendations called for the
                    government to use the Internet to "reduce the
unrestrained public
                    appetite for "secrets by providing good faith
distraction material."
                    The Internet, according to the studys authors, could
be used to help
                    "channel public interest toward already appropriately
declassified
                    material and possibly lessen FOIA requests." 

"Internet enables surfing for
                    secrets "
http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2000/0828/web-secret-08-28-00.asp







  








From honig at sprynet.com  Sun Sep 10 10:07:40 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:07:40 -0400
Subject: CDR: big brother for toddlers [parents using webcams at preschools]
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000910100559.008288d0@pop.sprynet.com>




http://www.latimes.com/editions/orange/20000910/t000085298.html
	
Keeping a Remote Eye on Day-Care
                                          Kids 
                                             Parents can monitor live video
of kids
                                          via Webcams, thanks to a Newport
firm.
                                          More centers are likely to join. 

                                          By MATTHEW EBNET, Times Staff
                                          Writer


                                               For Judi McDill, the video
window in
                                          the corner of her computer screen
is the
                                          only connection with her son
during the
                                          day. On the Web, she watches him eat
                                          lunch, stand on chairs with that
coltish
                                          wiggle in his knees, fuss with
his shirt
                                          buttons. Sometimes, when the
5-year-old
                                          notices the camera in his
day-care center,
                                          he waves. 
                                               All day she watches. 
                                               Chase, 5, was attending
Southcoast
                                          Early Childhood Learning Center
in Costa
                                          Mesa when a man crashed his Cadillac
                                          into the playground last year,
killing two
                                          children. So when McDill looked
for a
                                          new school, she was sold on Newport
                                          Harbor Montessori Center because
of its
                                          Webcam service. The Webcam offers
                                          "some peace to [my] soul" about
her son's
                                          well-being. 
                                               "I know it couldn't prevent
something
                                          bad happening again, but it gives me
                                          reassurance about his safety," said
                                          McDill, 35, who lives in Orange.
"The
                                          teachers know they are being
watched at
                                          any time. The biggest thing for
me is that I
                                          can just see him. I can see him.
And I can
                                          touch him in some way." 
                                               A year-old Newport Beach
company
                                          offers the Webcam service, which has
                                          been picked up by five Orange County
                                          child-care centers and is being
considered
                                          by five others. The company
provides the
                                          schools with $800 computers, the
cameras
                                          and high-speed Internet
connections for
                                          free, in exchange for full
participation
                                          from parents in the Webcam program,
                                          called GuardianCam. The parents
pay $10
                                          to $20 a month for the service.
All they
                                          need is a computer at work to
watch. The
                                          company also is installing
equipment in
                                          five schools in the San Diego
area and is
                                          "talking to" 42 preschools in the
San
                                          Francisco area. 
                                               Jennifer Lovely of Newport
Beach
                                          said she got the idea for the
company
                                          when she found it hard to leave
her own
                                          son Joseph, 4, in a home day-care
center.
                                          With help from some technologically
                                          savvy friends, Lovely created the
                                          company and began approaching
                                          preschools. She now employs 10
                                          people--and watches Joseph via her
                                          computer as he attends Newport
Harbor
                                          Montessori. 
                                               Lovely wasn't the first to
think of the
                                          idea. The first online video
system was
                                          launched in early 1997 at a day-care
                                          center in Connecticut. Also in 1997,
                                          Cathy's Kids Club in Tustin
installed
                                          video cameras in classrooms to
broadcast
                                          still pictures on the Internet
for parents to
                                          monitor their children. That
system is still
                                          in place, an employee there said. 
                                               Still, concerns have been
raised about
                                          such systems, by teachers and
sociologists
                                          who question just how much parents
                                          should be overseeing their
children during
                                          the school day. And some
conservative
                                          commentators have huffed that if
parents
                                          want to watch their children so
badly, they
                                          should stay at home with them. 
                                               But Lovely says she has not
heard any
                                          such complaints. 
                                               "This is just a sign that
people are
                                          saying, 'Yes, I have to work,'
but they are
                                          finding other ways to connect
with their
                                          families," she said. "This is one
way of
                                          doing it that works. . . . I know
it is
                                          one-way communication, but it is
                                          something." 
                                               Lovely said some schools were
                                          apprehensive, especially about the
                                          requirement that all parents
participate in
                                          the program; that adds cost to
already
                                          expensive day-care fees. But other
                                          schools were eager to join in,
wanting
                                          another opportunity to allay
concerns
                                          about safety in child-care centers,
                                          particularly after the Costa Mesa
crash. 
                                               "There's this fear out
there," said
                                          Jamee Backus, director of Newport
                                          Harbor Montessori Center, which
cares
                                          for about 160 children. "I feel
like this
                                          abolishes all that fear. Parents
can log on.
                                          Then they can ask their children
about
                                          their day. The parents know what
to ask.
                                          Like, 'Hey, I saw you were
working on a
                                          science project. . . .' And the
children feel
                                          more connected with their
parents. You
                                          can feel it in them. You can see
it when
                                          they wave into the cameras. It is
darling." 
                                               Sometimes the video can be
frustrating,
                                          however; the quality of the
images can be
                                          uneven and jerky. The video produces
                                          seven frames per second, compared
with
                                          about 30 for television. The
video offers
                                          detail and color, but no sound. 
                                               But even if technology
doesn't allow
                                          for perfect, real-time video yet,
                                          participating parents and schools
say the
                                          idea offers a sense of security. 
                                               "For the parent it shows we
have
                                          nothing to hide," Backus said,
"and they
                                          don't have to come and check on
their
                                          child." 
                                               Backus said about two dozen
parents
                                          enrolled in the school
specifically for the
                                          cameras, and about a third of
them were
                                          single parents looking for some
way to
                                          stay in touch with their children. 
                                               One 31-year-old mother sends
her
                                          child to a preschool in the
county that uses
                                          the cameras. She did not want her
name
                                          used because of concerns about her
                                          4-year-old daughter's safety. 
                                               She said the cameras were
the biggest
                                          selling point for her school. 
                                               "It just makes sense," she
said.
                                          "There's a lot to worry about. I
have
                                          [video] on all day. All day.
Without it, I
                                          can ask her how her day was and
she just
                                          says, 'OK' or 'Fine.' But this
way I can ask
                                          her specifically about what she's
done. I
                                          also can call her on it when she
puts her
                                          feet on the table. She's not
supposed to put
                                          those feet on the table." 







  








From TheBlackList-optin-conf-492910394.5351109 at topica.com  Sun Sep 10 13:16:01 2000
From: TheBlackList-optin-conf-492910394.5351109 at topica.com (TheBlackList -eMail News, Kwasi Akyeampong)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:16:01 -0700
Subject: CDR: REPLY REQUIRED: Subscription to TheBlackList News Information -eMail offered
Message-ID: <0.0.244528018-951758591-968616961@topica.com>


Hello,

TheBlackList -eMail News, Kwasi Akyeampong, the owners of the email list 'TheBlackList News Information -eMail', 
are inviting you to join this list at Topica.

Here's the description of the list:

TheBlackList is a moderated email list that informs the
African Nationalist and the Afro-Centric
about issues relevant to our cause.
No Cause is local.   If it concerns you, it concerns us, ALL Africans - those at home and those abroad.


TO SUBSCRIBE TO THIS LIST:

Simply click reply in your email program, and then send - we'll 
automatically add you to the list. 

If this list does not interest you (or you do not want to join 
the list at this time), just ignore this message and you will 
not be added.

If you have any questions about the list, you can contact the 
list owners at any of these addresses: TBLeNews at earthlink.net, mgbbs at juno.com.

Thank you,

Natasha
Topica Customer Support




From whgiii at openpgp.net  Sun Sep 10 10:32:19 2000
From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:32:19 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Hardware support for trusted pc
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000907130625.00804ce0@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <200009101731.NAA32022@domains.invweb.net>

In <3.0.6.32.20000907130625.00804ce0 at pop.sprynet.com>, on 09/07/00 
   at 02:07 PM, David Honig  said:

>Basically next year you could get a motherboard with a security module
>onboard.  Which is both your friend, and not.

 more "warm-fuzzies" marketing hype.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III      http://www.openpgp.net  
Geiger Consulting    

Data Security & Cryptology Consulting
Programming, Networking, Analysis
 
PGP for OS/2:               http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
E-Secure:                   http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------





From Cyph-Relay at aadp.no  Sun Sep 10 15:56:38 2000
From: Cyph-Relay at aadp.no (Cyph-Relay)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:56:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: Simulations...
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000910185638.008beca0@aadp.no>

..



..




From tcmay at got.net  Sun Sep 10 21:29:08 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:29:08 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:12 PM -0500 9/10/00, Jim Choate wrote:
>http://www.worldaudit.org/home.htm
>--

(25K of included junk elided)

Amazing. You give the URL of a site with almost no list significance, 
which is fine, because a URL only takes a few bytes.

But then the rest of your message consumes 25K of included junk and 
cruft and HTML garbage.

You are a disgrace to our movement.

Begone.


--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From ravage at ssz.com  Sun Sep 10 20:12:45 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:12:45 -0500
Subject: CDR: WorldAudit.org home page
Message-ID: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>

http://www.worldaudit.org/home.htm
-- 
    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: home.htm
Type: text/html
Size: 24056 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From petro at bounty.org  Sun Sep 10 23:39:47 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 23:39:47 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
 
Message-ID: 

>At 10:12 PM -0500 9/10/00, Jim Choate wrote:
>>http://www.worldaudit.org/home.htm
>>--
>
>(25K of included junk elided)
>
>Amazing. You give the URL of a site with almost no list 
>significance, which is fine, because a URL only takes a few bytes.
>
>But then the rest of your message consumes 25K of included junk and 
>cruft and HTML garbage.

	I think he just includes the HTML and Eudora fetches the 
images from the site.

	Not that this really changes much, except that he doesn't 
directly include the images.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From bfhsq at hotbot.com  Sun Sep 10 21:27:52 2000
From: bfhsq at hotbot.com (bfhsq at hotbot.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 00:27:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Affordable Offshore Income!                                    [pdxzz]
Message-ID: <200009110425.AAA02078@mail2fddi.east.frontiercorp.com>

Partners Wanted - $100.00 to start.

As a partner you can develop a secondary offshore
income of $500 - $5,000 a day or more - you decide!!

Take advantage of an OFFSHORE account with
high projected returns, accessible with a secured,
international MasterCard.  All confidential.

Unlimited global market, unlimited income.

You can:

Eliminate your debt
Secure your Assets
Own an offshore retirement fund
Retain ALL your money with tax savings
Pass your wealth on to your heirs

The Super Rich have done this for years.
Isn't it time you started?

For more info, type "Offshore" in the subject line.

mailto:bc2u at n2mail.com?subject=Offshore

Have a Great Day!
Nick





From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Sun Sep 10 22:42:25 2000
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 01:42:25 -0400
Subject: CDR: Big Comrade is Watching
Message-ID: <9bcdf85febe224a3f82b0dd37a9b99e7@mixmaster.shinn.net>

Russian law lets agency monitor e-mails, Net traffic and cell-phone conversations without users' consent

BY MARGARET COKER
Cox News Service 

MOSCOW -- For Russian computer users, the message ``You've Got Mail!'' might now well read, ``You've Got Company.''

Under a far-reaching new law going into effect this month, Russia's intelligence agency, the Federal Security Service, or FSB, is allowed to snoop on all Internet traffic and eavesdrop on cellular telephone and pager communications -- all without the user's consent or knowledge.

Russia's flourishing Internet service providers, or ISPs, say the government's demand that they install the eavesdropping equipment and train intelligence officers to use it will put the fledgling companies out of business.

Meanwhile, civil rights groups say the surveillance measures, known by their Russian acronym SORM, are yet another sign of a return to Soviet-style political repression under current President Vladimir Putin.

``This is the end to all e-mail privacy,'' said Anatoly Levanchuk, an Internet and free-speech advocate. ``Wiretapping is now only a click away.''

The Draconian regulations were first issued by government decree in 1995. At this time, they only covered wiretapping telephone calls. SORM was updated in 1998 to include Internet technologies -- the venue where, Russian officials believe, most crime in the 21st century will be committed. The Justice Ministry approved the measures on July 25, effectively making them law.

The amended directives require all Russian ISPs to equip their networks with an FSB monitor and connect them with a high-speed fiber-optic link to FSB headquarters. The link permits the agency to keep an eye on electronic transmissions -- from private e-mails to e-commerce purchases -- in real-time and in total privacy. Failure to put in the bugging devices, which the Internet firms say cost between $15,000 and $25,000, will mean the loss of the service provider's operating license.

Alexei Rokotyan, a top official in Russia's Communications Ministry, admits that the regulations -- the Orwellian-termed ``System of Operational and Investigative Measures'' -- give the government access to all information transmitted via Russian ISPs.

``Security organs and special forces have the right, and now the capability, to monitor private correspondence and telephone conversations of individual citizens in the name of establishing legal order,'' Rokotyan told Russian television in July. He insisted, though, that SORM would be used only for ``monitoring individual cases according to the law.''

Internet surveillance has come under fire in many countries, including the United States. In 1994, U.S. lawmakers authorized the FBI to wiretap and eavesdrop on criminals conducting or discussing crimes over the Internet. The measure was vehemently opposed, with only limited success, in 1998 by civil liberties groups and telecom businesses who viewed it as a threat to both profits and personal freedom.

Human rights advocates in Russia say these same issues that aroused opposition in the United States are magnified here because there are virtually no checks-and-balances to prevent the FSB from using their expansive powers to cross from law enforcement into political blackmail and commercial espionage.

``No one is saying that the FSB should not have access in the course of a criminal investigation. There is a law that says Internet (service) providers must render assistance in a criminal case. But free access to the Internet gives the FSB great power that would be easy to abuse,'' said Ina Zemskova, a lawyer with the St. Petersburg-based Citizens' Watch, a human-rights group. ``In our country, no one monitors the eavesdroppers.''

Legal experts say the SORM regulations are fraught with loopholes that allow the FSB to sidestep the required warrant before conducting any electronic surveillance. That leaves telecommunications firms in the dark.

``We do not know exactly what the FSB does in our network. We cannot see what they are doing, when they are tapping in. We can only trust that they are not working against our clients' interests,'' said Mikhail Yakushev, the head of the legal department at GlobalOne, a multinational telecommunications company.

About 7 million people, or 4.8 percent of Russia's 145 million population, are connected to the Internet. That number is expected to rise to 8 percent of the population in the next three years, according to Avi Krel, the telecom analyst at UFG investment bank in Moscow.

Although minuscule compared to the United States, this activity has generated 2,000 Internet start-ups in the last two years. More than 300 businesses are licensed to provide Internet service here, and some 20,000 Russian Web sites offer search engines, chatrooms and e-commerce outlets. Economists estimate Russia's dot-com economy's annual turnover at $100 million.

So far, the Internet has offered Russians much more than monetary gain. The information superhighway has spurred the growth of environmental organizations, academics and a rising number of government critics by connecting them across Russia's 11 time zones that extend from the Pacific Ocean to the Polish border.

In many cases, the most outspoken opponents of government policy are chatroom monitors or network operators themselves. They were among the first to sound the alarm about SORM, leaving the traditional media in their wake as they posted up-to-the-minute news about the progress of the proposed regulations.

Oleg Syrov, the director of an ISP based in the northern Russian town of Volgograd, has become one of SORM's most vocal critics. After denying the FSB access to his Bayara-Slavia Communications network in 1998, Syrov said he received anonymous death threats. He said he has also fought off multiple attempts by the FSB to shut down his business.

An FSB spokesman contacted about the allegations raised refused to comment for this story,

But around the rest of the marketplace, opposition to the regulations among ISPs has weakened as the government's determination to institute the surveillance measures have strengthened.

While the Communications Ministry said the vast majority of Internet providers are complying with SORM, all but one of the six Moscow-based ISPs contacted for this story refused to say whether they had installed the eavesdropping equipment. The exception -- GlobalOne -- said all of its hardware and software contained the equipment necessary for the FSB to dial in.

``The resistance movement is as good as dead,'' said a grim Alexander Levanchuk, the founder of www.libertarium.ru, a Russian political Web site, and one of the people spearheading a legal challenge to SORM. ``The FSB can outmuscle us, and it usually wins these things.'' 







From fghfgn at bigfoot.com  Mon Sep 11 00:31:43 2000
From: fghfgn at bigfoot.com (fghfgn at bigfoot.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 02:31:43 -0500
Subject: CDR: Is your website too slow...READ NOW !!!!
Message-ID: 

************************************************************************************************
All remove requests honored please respond with REMOVE as the subject
for more information please respond with MORE INFO as the subject
************************************************************************************************


Is your website too slow?
Are you paying too much for hosting?
Do you receiving the level of service you want?
Is your site down on a regular basis?

We are the solution we can host your site for as little as $9.95/mo
($19.95 per month with many advanced features)
Our advanced network boasts a 99.9% uptime by using BGP the next 
level in absolute REDUNDANCY. Our Technical support is second to none.
 
We provide the same services as our competitors (and
often much more)for about half what they charge.
 
We provide unlimited telephone support to holders of our 
accounts. Our support and service is unparalleled.  
Doesn't your business  deserve the best? You've worked hard 
to get it up--Now keep it up and running 99% of the time 

       CALL NOW 1-877 853 4181 X 229
 
Some of our standard features include:
* Registration or Transfer of your domain name
* Unlimited e-mail address @ your domain.com
* FrontPage 2000 & '98 Server Extensions
* Private cgi-bin
* 24 hour private FTP access
 
Advanced  features include:
* ASP, Coldfusion
* SQL, Access
* SSL
* Live stats
* Real Media
* & more....
 
***Cobalt RAQ2 Dedicated servers start at $199.00/mo.***
 
These web interfaced LINUX machines can handle up to 200 websites 
running the following services: web, email, ftp, telnet.  
Give us a call for a test drive. 1-877 853 4181 X 229
                                               

************************************************************************************************
All remove requests honored please respond with REMOVE as the subject
for more information please respond with MORE INFO as the subject
************************************************************************************************




From tom at ricardo.de  Mon Sep 11 05:17:50 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 08:17:50 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
References: <3.0.6.32.20000906072619.008b4690@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <39BCC2EA.4ACAC3F0@ricardo.de>

David Honig wrote:
> >on the ideological level, no.
> >on the practical level - a lot. for example, you don't go to jail for
> >not paying GEMA.
> 
> Then why do people pay?

because you can't "opt out" - blank tapes just cost $x - GEMA included.
you can't buy any without.

shop owners and others pay because they have much better things to do
then spend their money on a lawsuit with no chance of winning.


> Ultimately law is backed by violence.

and customs. (not the border kind)
most people are simply used to following the law.





From craig at red-bean.com  Mon Sep 11 10:50:15 2000
From: craig at red-bean.com (Craig Brozefsky)
Date: 11 Sep 2000 10:50:15 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: "R. A. Hettinga"'s message of "Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:06:09 -0400"
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
	
	
Message-ID: <874s3mhl7s.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>

"R. A. Hettinga"  writes:

> > You are a disgrace to our movement.
> 
> "Movement?"

Perhaps he has a ethernet tap in the john and was peeved to have to
scroll thru 25k of junk while grunting one out, so it's a bowel
movement?

-- 
Craig Brozefsky               
"Revolution begins by giving things and social
 relationships their real names". --  L. Trotsky




From felix323 at 123india.com  Mon Sep 11 10:00:02 2000
From: felix323 at 123india.com (felix323 at 123india.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:00:02 -0600
Subject: CDR: 309,000 100% SAFE Recipients
Message-ID: <200009111700.LAA12978@ www. lanka.com>


100% RISK-FREE ADVERTISING TO 309,000
                OPPORTUNITY SEEKERS
                     
                Guaranteed Results

FED UP WITH: 

     Being shut down by your ISP's 
     People screaming, 
     People sending you FLAMES 
     Being bombarded with COUNTER OFFERS 
     LOW response rate


     Then let us take over the hassles for you. 
     THERE ISNT ANOTHER COMPANY IN THE WORLD THAT 
     CAN MAKE YOU A DEAL LIKE THIS!
 
     http://thechnical.driveweb.de/



     To be removed, reply with the word "REMOVE" in the SUBJECT
     heading, your name will be removed  within 24 hrs from the list.




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep 11 09:06:09 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:06:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: 
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
 
Message-ID: 


> You are a disgrace to our movement.

"Movement?"

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From 2ezy at wealth.com  Mon Sep 11 09:11:14 2000
From: 2ezy at wealth.com (2ezy at wealth.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:11:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: Discover The Secrets Of Weekend Wealth
Message-ID: <199912112040.MAA94626@adr6.addr.com>

Dear Online Marketer,

How would you like to quit your job, become your own boss, and build up enough residual income to support  yourself for the rest of your life?

..Forget the old-days of Network Marketing where you had to "show the plan" and meet at the local highschool for a "ra-ra" meeting. Our company offers you an opportunity that can be operated from in-front of your computer screen.

Imagine the feeling of being able to offer our opportunity and products to millions of people in over 42 Countries and Territories around the World.

..Not only do you have the ability to own a profitable home-based business which is operating in the United States but you also have the potential of having distributors all over  the World.

Make a well informed decision which will impact your future today!

http://www.dotcombiz2k.com/paf/

You  will be glad that you did!

With Our Warmest Regards,

Lynn & Pat





From frissell at panix.com  Mon Sep 11 10:08:07 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:08:07 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Germans to tax PCs for Lars
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.6.32.20000908140853.0081fc10@pop.sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000911130446.03af3560@popserver.panix.com>

At 05:16 PM 9/8/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:

>The 'law' stems from the individual right to self-defence. Law is backed
>by violence because that is what is is about.

We wouldn't have a problem is it stopped at our individual right of self 
defense.  Unfortunately, taxes, murder, regulation, and kidnapping are not 
rights of self defense that I possess so I can't delegate them to the 
state.  The state does all those things and therefore cannot be justified 
under a theory of delegated rights to self defense.

DCF
----
You can horsewhip your Gascony Archers.  You can torture your Picardy 
Spears. But don't try that with the Saxons or you'll have the whole brood 
round your ears.  From the highest Thane in the county to the lowest 
chained serf in the field.  They'll be at you and on you like hornets.  And 
if you are wise you will yield.  -- Advice of a Norman Baron to his Son -- 
Kipling




From ros at personal.ro  Mon Sep 11 10:10:17 2000
From: ros at personal.ro (ros at personal.ro)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:10:17 -0400
Subject: CDR: Incredible Money Magnet-All Cash Business!                         8800
Message-ID: <0000094067ce$0000162d$00002260@ns.spice.or.jp>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 9687 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From sunder at sunder.net  Mon Sep 11 13:16:56 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:16:56 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Check this out: http://www.antivore.com
References: <39B9908E.468B46D8@sunder.net> <01a201c019e9$eb0372c0$0100a8c0@matthew>
Message-ID: <39BD3DB8.C8292201@sunder.net>

>From the quick scan of their pages, what I'd gathered was that you'd
run your own antivore server, or "you" as in your company would run
one of these before you reach the ISP layer.

Me wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sunder" 
> > http://www.antivore.com
> 
> Easy-as-pie carnivore defeating email encryption?
> 
> "
> How does Antivore work?
> 
> Antivore is a special application which sits between the user and
> their mail server. 

This says the meat of it.  So you don't send cleartext to your ISP, you send clear text to the antivore box in your company/home
office, which in turns encrypts your email for you, and sends it out via your ISP.

For the Feds to gain access to your emails, they'd have to install the carnivore box between you and the antivore box.

So basically the concept is the same as running your own proxy web server to filter out banner ads, but instead you use it for email
and it encrypts emails.

Yes, the faq says something really stupid - which is to ask your ISP to run antivore for you. Presumably this is because most users
are morons, and in this case, it won't help at all but to instill a false sense of security.

The way I see this: As always, this is a crutch for the lazy who don't want to put up with the cut/paste/enter passphrase hasles of
using PGP for non-integrated clients.

It's being pushed in the wrong direction for sure.

> The application is server-based which means
> that as an individual you need to contact your IT department or
> your ISP to request the encryption services that Antivore can
> offer.
> "
> 
> So I send my cleartext email to my ISP... who has been served
> with a search warrant and a small black box... and they will
> encrypt it, and then forward the cyphertext through their mail
> server and THEN through the carnivore box?
> 
> I hope the FBI special agent assigned to my ISP was hired under
> some sort of affirmative action programme.


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From rah at shipwright.com  Mon Sep 11 11:10:33 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:10:33 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: WorldAudit.org home page
In-Reply-To: <874s3mhl7s.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>
References: <39BC4DAD.84C470A6@ssz.com>
 
  <874s3mhl7s.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:50 AM -0700 on 9/11/00, Craig Brozefsky wrote:


> it's a bowel
> movement?


> "Revolution begins by giving things and social
>  relationships their real names". --  L. Trotsky


Oh. *That* kind of movement...

;-).

Cheers,
RAH


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From gdunk at gotoworld.com  Mon Sep 11 16:09:50 2000
From: gdunk at gotoworld.com (Gilbert Dunk)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:09:50 -0700
Subject: CDR: Three Dogs
Message-ID: <110900255.58179@webbox.com>




>Three Dogs

>Three people, 2 men and 1 woman, and their dogs are in the Vets
waiting
>room. The first man's dog asked the second man's dog what he's
there for.
>They are putting me down. Oh no, says the first dog, why? The
second dog
>says,"Well, you see... I've been chasing the Postman for years.
Yesterday,
>I finally caught him, and bit him. So, I'm going to be put to
sleep. The
>second dog says, "Well, my master just completely remodeled
the inside of
>his house. I didn't like it because my scent wasn't anywhere,
anymore. So,
>when he went to bed last night, I pissed on everything I could
find, to
>get my scent back. This morning, my master found out what I
had done, so
>he is putting me to sleep also.
>
>The third dog said,"This is my masters new girlfriend. She runs
around the
>house all the time without her clothes. This makes me very horny.
So, this
>morning, as she was getting out of the shower, and bent over
to wipe up
>the water on the floor. I couldn't stand it anymore, so I jumped
on her a
>gave it to her good!" The other dogs say, " so' that's why they
are
>putting you to sleep?" No says the dog, "She is bringing me
here to get my
>toenails clipped!"

Get Paid Every Time You and Your Referrals Use the Internet!
Just go to:
http://www.gotoworld.com/getpaid/default.asp?rid=456123
A free service provided by WebBox - http://webbox.com





From levitte at openssl.org  Mon Sep 11 07:43:50 2000
From: levitte at openssl.org (Richard Levitte)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:43:50 +0200
Subject: ANNOUNCE: OpenSSL 0.9.6 Beta 1
Message-ID: <20000911164349.A6933@openssl.org>


  OpenSSL version 0.9.6 Beta 1
  ============================

  OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS
  http://www.openssl.org/

  OpenSSL is currently in a release cycle.  The first beta is now released.
  This beta is in fact two releases, one for the current mainstream
  OpenSSL, and one with an "engine" branch incorporated.  The "engine"
  branch contains an interface to external crypto libraries, which is
  currently used to support the hardware devices CryptoSwift (by CryptoSwift
  Inc), Atalla (by Compaq) and CHIL (previously called HWCryptoHook, by
  nCipher) as well as the internal OpenSSL routines.

  The two beta releases are available for download via HTTP and FTP from the
  following master locations (the various FTP mirrors you can find under
  http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html):

    o http://www.openssl.org/source/
    o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/

  The file names of the two betas are:

    o openssl-0.9.6-beta1.tar.gz
    o openssl-engine-0.9.6-beta1.tar.gz

  Please download and test it as soon as possible.  This new OpenSSL version
  incorporates 75 changes and bugfixes to the toolkit (for a complete list
  see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES).

  Yours,
  The OpenSSL Project Team...  

    Mark J. Cox             Richard Levitte    Andy Polyakov
    Ralf S. Engelschall     Bodo Möller        Holger Reif
    Dr. Stephen Henson      Ulf Möller         Geoff Thorpe
    Ben Laurie              

--
Richard Levitte         levitte at openssl.org
OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/
Software Engineer, Celo Communications: http://www.celocom.com/




From syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil  Mon Sep 11 14:08:37 2000
From: syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil (Paul Syverson)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:08:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FC'01 Final Call for Papers
Message-ID: 

                           Final Call for Papers

                         Financial Cryptography '01

                             February 19-22, 2000
                      Grand Cayman Marriott Beach Resort
                             Cayman Islands, BWI


Original papers are solicited on all aspects of financial data security and
digital commerce in general for submission to the Fifth Annual Conference on
Financial Cryptography (FC01). FC01 aims to bring together persons involved
in the financial, legal and data security fields to foster cooperation and
exchange of ideas. Relevant topics include

Anonymity Protection                   Infrastructure Design
Auditability                           Legal/ Regulatory Issues
Authentication/Identification          Loyalty Mechanisms
Certification/Authorization            Payments/ Micropayments
Commercial Transactions                Privacy Issues
Copyright/ I.P. Management             Risk Management
Digital Cash/ Digital Receipts         Secure Banking Systems
Economic Implications                  Smart Cards
Electronic Purses                      Trust Management
Implementations                        WaterMarking


INSTRUCTIONS FOR AUTHORS: Electronic submission strongly encouraged.
(Instructions available at http://www.fc01.uwm.edu).  Alternatively,
send a cover letter and 15 copies of an extended abstract to be
received no later than October 13, 2000 (or postmarked by October 6,
2000 and sent via airmail) to the Program Chair. The extended abstract
should start with the title, names of authors, abstract, and keywords
followed by a succinct statement appropriate for a non-specialist
reader specifying the subject addressed, background, main
achievements, and significance to financial data security. Submissions
are limited to 15 single-spaced pages of 11pt type and should
constitute substantially original material. Panel proposals are due no
later than November 27, 2000 (or postmarked and airmailed by November
20).  Panel proposals should include a brief description of the panel
and a list of prospective panelists.  Notification of acceptance or
rejection of papers and panel proposals will be sent to authors no
later than December 8, 2000.  Authors of accepted papers must
guarantee that their papers will be presented at the conference and must
be willing to sign an acceptable copyright agreement with Springer-Verlag.
Use the above address for electronic submissions or send hardcopy to:

Paul Syverson, FC01 Program Chair
Center for High Assurance Computer Systems  (Code 5540)
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington DC 20375  USA
email: syverson at itd.nrl.navy.mil
Web: www.syverson.org
phone: +1 202 404-7931

PROCEEDINGS: Final proceedings will be published by Springer Verlag in
their Lecture Notes in Computer Science (LNCS) series.  Preproceedings
will be available at the conference, but final versions will not be
due until afterwards, giving authors the opportunity to revise their
papers based on presentations and discussions at the meeting.

Program Committee

Matt Blaze, AT&T Labs - Research
Yair Frankel, Ecash
Matt Franklin, UC Davis
David Kravitz, Wave Systems Corp.
Arjen Lenstra, Citicorp
Philip MacKenzie, Lucent Bell Labs
Avi Rubin, AT&T Labs - Research
Jacques Stern, Ecole Normale Sup�rieure
Kazue Sako, NEC
Stuart Stubblebine, CertCo
Paul Syverson (Chair), Naval Research Laboratory
Win Treese, Open Market, Inc.
Doug Tygar, UC Berkeley
Michael Waidner, IBM Zurich Research Lab
Moti Yung, CertCo

Important Dates

Extended Abstract Submissions Due: Oct. 13, 2000
Panel Proposal Submissions Due: November 27, 2000
Notification: Dec 8, 2000

Electronic submission information:
See http://www.fc01.uwm.edu

General Chair
Stuart Haber, InterTrust STAR Lab

Electronic Submission chair
George Davida, UWM

Further Information about conference registration and on travel, hotels, and
Grand Cayman itself will follow in a separate general announcement. FC01 is
organized by the International Financial Cryptography Association.
Additional information will be found at http://fc01.ai

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From apoio at giganetstore.com  Mon Sep 11 09:48:38 2000
From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:48:38 +0100
Subject: CDR: O mundo da Disney
Message-ID: <05f573848160b90WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore>

 



  
Bem vindos ao fantástico mundo da Disney
Entre neste mundo mágico com a giganetstore.com
 
 
Mickey Médio  
Minnie Média  
Pateta Médio 
 
Mulan-DVD  
Dumbo-DVD  
A Espada era a Lei-DVD 
 
Disney´s Magical Tetris
 
Album Disney  
Album Pooh 
Nesta viagem de sonho passe pela ilha do conhecimento e visite a nossa
campanha do Regresso às Aulas!
 
Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
<   http://www.giganetstore.com
  >  , ir à
edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das
nossas promoções e novos serviços. 


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 5483 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From PAULandBARB76 at webtv.net  Mon Sep 11 15:22:09 2000
From: PAULandBARB76 at webtv.net (Paul and Barbara Paulsen)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:22:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Van Star Films Inc.
Message-ID: <21319-39BD5B11-7859@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net>


   Please send free newsletter to:
   Paul E. Paulsen
   76 Van Buren Rd. Apt. #3
   Glenville, NY 12302

Have a good day                 
                            
                               




From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Mon Sep 11 19:38:17 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009120238.TAA28422@e2.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: flaming_perimeter

Your email address: 
  cypherpunks at toad.com

We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
forget your Yahoo! ID or password.  
To learn how to change this address, read below.

**********************************************************

WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT?

You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of 
Yahoo's free, personalized services.   

My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
Yahoo Calendar - http://calendar.yahoo.com
Yahoo Chat - http://chat.yahoo.com
Yahoo Classifieds - http://classifieds.yahoo.com
Yahoo Clubs - http://clubs.yahoo.com
Yahoo Finance - http://quote.yahoo.com
Yahoo Games - http://play.yahoo.com
Yahoo GeoCities - http://geocities.yahoo.com
Yahoo Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com
Yahoo Message Boards - http://messages.yahoo.com
Yahoo Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.com
Yahoo Travel - http://travel.yahoo.com

To see a full list go to 
  http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/family/more.html

You can return to Yahoo! Chat by going to
  http://chat.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE EMAIL ADDRESS ON YOUR ACCOUNT

Just go to any of Yahoo!'s Personalized Properties 
( like http://my.yahoo.com ) and look for the Account 
Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
under the options).  The Account Information page will 
let you update your email address, password, home and work 
address and other personal information and preferences.

**********************************************************

THANK YOU FOR SIGNING UP WITH YAHOO!

If you have additional questions regarding other Yahoo! 
Services, we suggest Yahoo! Help Central at: 
http://help.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to
use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the 
following address:
http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV%2bemJzYnU4jiF5SmVmeHJidE9gMzFmdE8hdUpOMU8wNTE1TjAhc0pkf2Zz

If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SmVmeHJidE9gMzFmdE8hdUpOMU8wNTE1TjAhc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your 
reply) with REMOVE as the subject line.

[216.116.34.90]


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 6567 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From tcmay at got.net  Mon Sep 11 19:44:30 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:44:30 -0700
Subject: CDR: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
Message-ID: 


For all those speaking favorably of the twentieth century trends 
toward voluntary mandatory (VM) taxes, a la the VM taxes on PCs to 
support recording moguls, the VM taxes on paper to support writers, 
the VM taxes on hamburgers to fund heart disease research, consider 
where ever-increasing taxes take us:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/13169.html

"Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this 
afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that 
OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at 
slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"

This is from the U.K., where tax policy is ahead of that of the U.S. 
Whilst we are (almost) ready to mcveigh the tax collectors and wipe 
out millions of burrowcrats, the Brits are quite sheeplike in 
accepting taxes which are several times the price of the underlying 
commodity. Germany, France, Sweden, Italy, and essentially all other 
European nations are similarly sheep-like in their acceptance of such 
taxes. This is where the "voluntary mandatory" taxation trend leads 
us. Taxes become an instrument of social policy as well as a way to 
line the pockets of the burrowcrats who go into government service.

Frankly, tens of millions need to be liquidated.

Thank Baal for unbreakable crypto.


--Tim May



-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Mon Sep 11 16:57:09 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:57:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: infosec papers from .mil
Message-ID: <73bbfa6e7d35cc6c58cde8393b237791@melontraffickers.com>

"Deliver!" (Word/PDF): A pamphlet on How to Transmit and Transport Your Classified
Materials 

The Laymans Guide to Security (Word/PDF) 

Security Related Acronyms and Abbreviations and Basic Security Forms (Word/PDF) 

STU III Handbook for Industry (Word/PDF) 

"Survival Handbook": The Basic Security Procedures Necessary for Keeping You Out of
Trouble (Word/PDF). 

"Take a Security Break" (Word/PDF) 

"Take Another Security Break" (Word/PDF) 

"Take a Third Security Break" (Word/PDF) 

"Terminator VIII": How to Destroy Your Classified Materials (Word/PDF) 

http://www.dss.mil/training/pub.htm





From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Mon Sep 11 21:09:12 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 21:09:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009120409.VAA28673@e5.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: flaming_perimeter

Your email address: 
  cypherpunks at toad.com

We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
forget your Yahoo! ID or password.  
To learn how to change this address, read below.

**********************************************************

WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT?

You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of 
Yahoo's free, personalized services.   

My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
Yahoo Calendar - http://calendar.yahoo.com
Yahoo Chat - http://chat.yahoo.com
Yahoo Classifieds - http://classifieds.yahoo.com
Yahoo Clubs - http://clubs.yahoo.com
Yahoo Finance - http://quote.yahoo.com
Yahoo Games - http://play.yahoo.com
Yahoo GeoCities - http://geocities.yahoo.com
Yahoo Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com
Yahoo Message Boards - http://messages.yahoo.com
Yahoo Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.com
Yahoo Travel - http://travel.yahoo.com

To see a full list go to 
  http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/family/more.html

You can return to Yahoo! Chat by going to
  http://chat.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE EMAIL ADDRESS ON YOUR ACCOUNT

Just go to any of Yahoo!'s Personalized Properties 
( like http://my.yahoo.com ) and look for the Account 
Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
under the options).  The Account Information page will 
let you update your email address, password, home and work 
address and other personal information and preferences.

**********************************************************

THANK YOU FOR SIGNING UP WITH YAHOO!

If you have additional questions regarding other Yahoo! 
Services, we suggest Yahoo! Help Central at: 
http://help.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to
use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the 
following address:
http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV%2bemJzYnU4jiF5SjJ2dnQ1dGAwYnJgfXQhdUpOMU8wNDYwMjUhc0pkf2Zz

If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SjJ2dnQ1dGAwYnJgfXQhdUpOMU8wNDYwMjUhc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your 
reply) with REMOVE as the subject line.

[216.116.34.114]


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 6568 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM  Mon Sep 11 22:00:48 2000
From: postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:00:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: "ChronoCryption" algorithm - $50 reward for spotting a flaw
In-Reply-To: <20000905180009.22147.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: 

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------



On 5 Sep 2000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:

>Ray Dillinger writes:
>> In the interest of making  some news if you don't like the news 
>> you're getting, I present -- the Country Mile Cipher.  Algorithm 
>> details available (for now) on 
>>
>>         http://www.sonic.net/~bear/crypto/countrymile.html

>Your idea is to take BBS as a stream cipher, use a value based on a
>secret short key as a starting point, and then cycle it potentially a
>whole lot, millions or billions of cycles or more, before beginning to
>cipher the message with it.
<...>
>You've combined the idea of time lock crypto with an encryption function.

Bingo.

>It's not clear these two ideas go all that well together,
<,,,>
>Usually you
>either want to encrypt, in which case you want to make it easy to decrypt
>for the guy who knows the key, or you want to time-lock, in which case
>you want to control how hard it will be to find the key.  There don't
>seem to be that many cases where you want to allow decryption but only
>if you both know the key and are willing to put in a lot of time.

True. Not many.  But, I think, some.  It's a matter of using the 
right tool for the right job.  The world doesn't need yet another 
cipher, because the ciphers we have are adequately secure and 
efficient.  It doesn't need another timelock, because Rivest's 
does that job quite nicely.  But I think Country Mile fills a 
niche that I don't think I've seen anything else fill -- a keyed 
timelock.  

>Even if you did want to do that, you could just use Rivest's time lock
>to hide a key which then gets combined with your short key to produce
>the actual key to the message.

Yes, and no.  One application for Country Mile is for situations 
where you are restricted to a short key and want to get adequate 
security.  By putting a two-second delay into the decryption 
function, which is almost nonexistent in human time to someone 
who has the key, you can make a brute-force attack on the key take 
thousands of times longer -- enough to make a 56-bit key, if not 
secure, then at least adequate for a few weeks of security.

If you just used Country Mile to encrypt the key of another cipher 
system, then the effective brute force attack against that system  
could proceed without the country mile timelock slowing it down at 
all. 'Cause the system will always be attacked at its weakest link.

It's true that this is an artificial and arbitrary restriction, 
caused mainly by legal boogerheads.  But it's nice to have a tool 
in your box that can give you reasonable security anyway. 

>Along these lines your own idea could be simplified; don't encipher the
>whole message using BBS, just encipher a block-cipher key and use 3DES
>or similar to encipher the message.

Right.  That's the way RSA is usually used.  The fact doesn't 
affect the description of RSA, nor of Country Mile. Whether 
someone uses it that way is mainly a matter of what he or she 
wants to accomplish. But before deciding whether to use it that 
way, I hope he or she understands my comments about short keys 
and brute force attacks above.

>They have a similar idea but came up with an application for it in fair
>contract signing (where one party should not end up with the signature on
>a contract unless the other party does too).  For their application they
>need to be able to encrypt a message such that it can only be decrypted
>with a specified large amount of work.  However they must be able to
>reveal the encrypted message and prove that the decryption was accurate,
>using a small amount of work.  This could be done in your scheme simply
>by revealing the modulus factors (the "long key") but they want to reuse
>the modulus so they use some fancy zero knowledge proofs.

Right.  Someone from sci.crypt has pointed out that the BBS modulus, 
which gets tranmitted with the ciphertext in Country Mile, constitutes 
a handy, and potentially large, subliminal channel.  Which is another 
interesting feature, but not a viable attack on the cipher.  Revealing 
the modulus factors in Country Mile would only de-timelock the one 
message encrypted under that modulus -- a fact which might turn out 
to be an important and desirable property in some protocols.  Since 
new factors are chosen with each encryption, it doesn't suffer from 
the usual problem with stream ciphers, where you can't use the same 
key more than once. In fact you can go on using the same short key, 
with a different modulus, even after you "de-timelock" a message by 
revealing the modulus factors.  

Thanks for looking at it! 

				Ray







From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Mon Sep 11 22:26:40 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:26:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009120526.WAA44606@e13.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: flaming_perimeter

Your email address: 
  cypherpunks at toad.com

We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
forget your Yahoo! ID or password.  
To learn how to change this address, read below.

**********************************************************

WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT?

You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of 
Yahoo's free, personalized services.   

My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
Yahoo Calendar - http://calendar.yahoo.com
Yahoo Chat - http://chat.yahoo.com
Yahoo Classifieds - http://classifieds.yahoo.com
Yahoo Clubs - http://clubs.yahoo.com
Yahoo Finance - http://quote.yahoo.com
Yahoo Games - http://play.yahoo.com
Yahoo GeoCities - http://geocities.yahoo.com
Yahoo Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com
Yahoo Message Boards - http://messages.yahoo.com
Yahoo Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.com
Yahoo Travel - http://travel.yahoo.com

To see a full list go to 
  http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/family/more.html

You can return to Yahoo! Chat by going to
  http://chat.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE EMAIL ADDRESS ON YOUR ACCOUNT

Just go to any of Yahoo!'s Personalized Properties 
( like http://my.yahoo.com ) and look for the Account 
Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
under the options).  The Account Information page will 
let you update your email address, password, home and work 
address and other personal information and preferences.

**********************************************************

THANK YOU FOR SIGNING UP WITH YAHOO!

If you have additional questions regarding other Yahoo! 
Services, we suggest Yahoo! Help Central at: 
http://help.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to
use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the 
following address:
http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV%2bemJzYnU4jiF5SjZjfXowMjV6NXNPf3EhdUpOMU8wNDE0Tk4hc0pkf2Zz

If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SjZjfXowMjV6NXNPf3EhdUpOMU8wNDE0Tk4hc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your 
reply) with REMOVE as the subject line.

[216.116.34.114]


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 6568 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM  Mon Sep 11 08:16:01 2000
From: postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:16:01 +0800
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re:   REPLY REQUIRED: Subscription to TheBlackList News Information -eMail offered
References: <0.0.244528018-951758591-968616961@topica.com>
Message-ID: <000001c01c6b$03329960$de0aa8c0@p400>

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------












----- Original Message -----
From: TheBlackList -eMail News, Kwasi Akyeampong

To: 
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 4:16 AM
Subject: REPLY REQUIRED: Subscription to TheBlackList News
Information -eMail offered


>
> Hello,
>
> TheBlackList -eMail News, Kwasi Akyeampong, the owners of the email list
'TheBlackList News Information -eMail',
> are inviting you to join this list at Topica.
>
> Here's the description of the list:
>
> TheBlackList is a moderated email list that informs the
> African Nationalist and the Afro-Centric
> about issues relevant to our cause.
> No Cause is local.   If it concerns you, it concerns us, ALL Africans -
those at home and those abroad.
>
>
> TO SUBSCRIBE TO THIS LIST:
>
> Simply click reply in your email program, and then send - we'll
> automatically add you to the list.
>
> If this list does not interest you (or you do not want to join
> the list at this time), just ignore this message and you will
> not be added.
>
> If you have any questions about the list, you can contact the
> list owners at any of these addresses: TBLeNews at earthlink.net,
mgbbs at juno.com.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Natasha
> Topica Customer Support
>
>




From postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM  Mon Sep 11 23:30:55 2000
From: postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:30:55 -0700
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
In-Reply-To: <87k8cigqwr.fsf@challah.msrl.com>
References: 
	<87k8cigqwr.fsf@challah.msrl.com>
Message-ID: 

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

At 4:44 AM +0000 9/12/00, Michael Shields wrote:
>In article ,
>Tim May  wrote:
>>  http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/13169.html
>>
>>  "Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this
>>  afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that
>>  OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at
>>  slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"
>
>$30 (now $35) is the price of a barrel of *light sweet crude*, not the
>price of a barrel of refined gasoline.
>--
>Shields.


The quote said nothing to the contrary. Crude results in some 
fraction of gasoline/petrol, and taxes are applied. His point was 
that the taxes are about 4-5 times the cost of the underlying petrol, 
which is about what it is in the U.K. (Last I heard, gas in the U.K. 
is about the equivalent of about $4-5 a gallon for unleaded regular.)

--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From ken at IKDQ.alldog.net  Tue Sep 12 00:01:29 2000
From: ken at IKDQ.alldog.net (ken at IKDQ.alldog.net)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:01:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: THIS IS IT! -IRHC
Message-ID: <200009120701.AAA26785@cyberpass.net>

Dear cypherpunks, You've got to read this!

"AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV"

YOU can earn $50,000 or more from your computer AT HOME, in next the 180 days 
sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details. This is for real!

Thank you for your time and interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the 
news lately. Due to 
the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted 
an entire show 
to the investigation of the program described below to see if it really can make people 
money.

The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved 
once and for all 
that there are absolutely no laws prohibiting participation in this program. This media 
coverage has helped 
to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money 
at home.

The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating in 
this program, that 
those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more 
money as more 
people try it out, it's been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once 
you experience it.

HERE IT IS BELOW:

*** Save and Print This Now For Future Reference ***

The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can 
be started with 
VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 180 days!
Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require 
you to come into 
contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house 
except to get 
the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, 
THIS IS IT! Simply 
follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order-
marketing program 
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.

E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method 
of advertising 
NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail.
Get your piece of this action!!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in 
the Harvard 
Business School, and both the Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have 
stated that between 
50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the 
mid to late 1990's. 
This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the United States, 
20% (100,000) 
made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that 45 
people become 
millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. Why shouldn't you be one of those 
people??

You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump made an 
appearance on the 
David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to 
start over from 
scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing 
company and get to work. 
The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and 
deadpanned his response: 
"That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!"

"The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, 
sometime later I re-
read everything and gave it some thought and took the time to study it. I didn't send for it, 
or ask for it, they 
just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it 
several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here 
was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest 
as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and 
paper and 
figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little 
skeptical and a little 
worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-
800-725-2161...24-
hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL 
and NOT A 
CHAIN LETTER, I decided 'WHY NOT'?

Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my first list of addresses. The 
great thing about e-mail is 
that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my 
orders are fulfilled 
via e-mail, my only expense is my time. I am telling you like it is, and I hope it doesn't 
turn you off, but I 
promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it made 
me.




In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I 
had received 26 
orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT 
#1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF 
YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making 
$50,000 in 90 days 
was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to 
"RECEIVE AT LEAST 
100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE 
PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. 
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE 
YOUR $50,000 GOAL.

Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and 
relaxed. By March 1, of my 
e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day.

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car.

Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE 
FOREVER!!

Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it 
EXACTLY! 
Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work and 
you'll lose out on 
a lot of money!

In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, 
and 100+ orders 
for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 180 days. I AM LIVING PROOF 
THAT IT WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity 
with little cost or 
risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way 
to financial 
security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you 
want to start 
your own business, consider this a sign. I DID!


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM:
By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded 
that an amateur 
could, not have created such a program, and one that is legal.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 
1979 my business 
began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but 
it wasn't 
working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me it was the economy. Inflation and recession 
had replaced the 
stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened 
to the 
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand experience. There were 
more failures 
and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely 
and moved up. 
Those who did not, including those of  us who never had anything to save or invest, were 
moving down into the 
ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET 
POORER." The 
traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", 
inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your 
life, with "NO 
RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next 
few months than you 
have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor 
anyone else who 
has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION 
DOLLARS! I have retired 
from the program after sending thousands and thousands of programs.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way, it works 
exceedingly well as 
it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. 
One of the people 
you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them!

Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity for you to 
become 
financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! THINK ABOUT IT.

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to 
read it and REALLY 
THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. 
Figure out the 
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of 
money! You will 
definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first 
orders come in. IT 
WORKS!

HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF 
DOLLARS:

INSTRUCTIONS:

This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you 
could use up to 
$50,000 or more in the next 180 days. Before you say, "bull****", Please read this 
program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity Basically, this 
is what you do: As 
with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and 
selling our products. 
Every state in the USA, and every province in Canada allows you to recruit new multi-
level business 
partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY 
MAIL AND ARE FILLED 
BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own 
home, store or 
office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere

This is what you MUST do:

1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them).

-- For each report, send $5.00 CASH (USD), the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT 
YOU ARE ORDERING, 
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a 
problem) to the person 
whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN 
ADDRESS IS ON YOUR 
ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS!

-- When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports You will need 
all four reports 
so that you can save them on your computer and resell them.

 -- Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them
on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who 
will order them 
from you.

2.  IMPORTANT!! DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each 
report,
or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps a-f or you 
will lose out on 
the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how 
it doesn't work 
if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not 
work.

a.  Look below for the listing of available reports.
b.  After you've ordered the four reports, take this advertisement and remove the name 
and address under 
REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their 
$50,000!
 c.  Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4.
 d.  Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3.
 e.  Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2.
 f.   Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position.

Please make sure you COPY ALL INFORMATION, every name and address, 
ACCURATELY!

3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your 
computer. Make NO 
changes to the instruction portion of this letter.

Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You 
obviously already 
have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!  Plus, there are many companies on the 
Internet that
	have lists of available e-mail addresses for sale for about $15 per 10,000.  
Addresses of people that want 
to learn of new money making and business opportunities like this one.

There are two primary methods of building your down line:

METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you 
and all those 
involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives 
a 0.5% response. 
Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out 
hundreds of 
thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out 
only 2,000 
programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 
people respond by 
sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of that 0.5%, 100 people 
respond and order 
REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% 
response to that is 
1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 
total. The 0.5% 
response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 $5 bills for you. CASH!!! 
Your total income 
in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER 
FRIEND, THIS IS 
ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY 
NOTHING AND 
TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN 
IF EVERYONE, OR 
HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people 
will do just that, and 
more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously 
already have an 
Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for 
bulk e-mailing; tell 
you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists.

METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET

Advertising on the Internet is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE 
places to 
advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your 
goal is to get 
ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the 
Internet will EASILY get 
a larger response). Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets 
ONLY 10 downline 
members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below:

1st level--your 10 members with $5.............................$50
2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)...........$500
3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)........$5,000
4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000).....$50,000
THIS TOTALS ------------------------------------------------------------$55,550


Remember friend, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people 
each. Think for a 
moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of 
participants! 
THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report 
they ordered. 
THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will 
guarantee that the e-mail 
THEY send out with YOUR name and address on it will be prompt because they can't 
advertise until they 
receive the report!

AVAILABLE REPORTS

*** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME ***

Notes:

-- ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT. CHECKS NOT 
ACCEPTED.

-- ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL.

-- Make sure the $5 cash is concealed, by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper. On 
one of 
those sheets of paper, include:
(a)  The number & name of the report you are ordering 
(b)  Your e-mail address, and 
(c)  Your name & postal address.

PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:

REPORT #1 - "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
	Ken Schulz
	216 Lafayette Road
	Medina, Oh. 44256

REPORT #2 - "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
Dave Robinson
43000 West Nine Mile Road
Novi, MI 48375


REPORT #3 - "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
Sam Laan
Box 25362, 395 Wellington Rd. South
London ON Canada N6C 6B1


REPORT #4 - "How to become a Millionaire Utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing 
and the 
 Internet"
ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
 Gary Scott
 P.O Box 181
 Chanute, KS 66720


About 50,000 new people get online every month!

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******

1. TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions 
accurately.

2.  Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start 
coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested 
product/report.

3.  ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE.

4.  Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your 
 results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL!

5.  ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED!

******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES *******

Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:

If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or 
sending e-mails 
until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for 
REPORT#2. If you 
don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or 
more orders for 
REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the 
cash will continue 
to roll in!

THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, 
you are placed in 
front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching 
which reports people 
are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-
mails or continue 
placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will 
generate from this 
business!

Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program, 
please answer one 
question. DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at 
the following facts 
about this program:

1.  You are selling a product, which does not cost anything to PRODUCE, SHIP OR 
ADVERTISE.

2.   All of your customers pay you in CASH!

3.   E-mail is without question the most powerful method of distributing information on 
Earth. This program 
combines the distribution power of e-mail, together with the revenue generating power of 
multi-level 
marketing.

4.  Virtually all of the income you generate from this program is PURE PROFIT!

5.  This program will change your LIFE FOREVER.

ACT NOW! Take your first step toward achieving financial independence. Order the 
reports and follow the 
program outlined above SUCCESS will be your reward.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, 
learning how 
income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business 
Administration (a Federal 
Agency) 1-800-827-5722 for free help and answers to your questions. Also, the Internal 
Revenue Service 
offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Your 
earnings are 
highly dependant on your activities and advertising. The information contained on this site 
and in the report 
constitutes no guarantee, neither stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined 
that this site or 
report constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. The earnings 
amounts listed on this 
site and in the report are estimates only. If you have any questions of the legality of this 
program, contact 
the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, and 
Bureau of 
Consumer Protection in Washington, DC.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you would like to be removed from this mailing list, please reply with remove in the 
subject line to: 
ken at alldog.net  Thank you and Kind Regards.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             






From CMF at secretcash.com  Tue Sep 12 01:12:39 2000
From: CMF at secretcash.com (CMF at secretcash.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 04:12:39 -0400
Subject: CDR: Quick Cash Secret Banking System Available Now!
Message-ID: <200009120811.EAA30600@waste.minder.net>


OPPORTUNITY IS NEVER LOST--IT JUST GOES TO THOSE WHO ARE READY!
___________________________________________________________
�����������������������������������������������������������
�����������������������������������������������������������
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

IN THE NEW MILLENNIUM BUNDLES OF CASH AND 
HAPPINESS CAN BE YOURS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FREE "$1,500/WEEK CASH"  INFORMATION!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Dear Friend!
How are you today? We hope you're doing great.

We are happy to announce that after two long years of 
research, revision and testing, our famous Quick Cash Secret 
Banking System is now being released again to the general public, 
to benefit anyone who is interested in generating a guaranteed $1,500+/week 
in FAST cash without any hard work or large investment!

It is the fastest and the easiest money making system today in 
the world, used by all multimillionaires to pile up 
cash, without any huffing and puffing!

============================================
It is 100% legal, easy, fast and fun! There 
is no scam or shady transaction! It is NOT
any kind of banking transaction you may have 
heard about or know! It's Approved by
all government agencies, including the US 
Treasury Dept., American and International 
Banking Associations, The Fed, World bank 
and US Post Office!
============================================

Have you ever wondered why a few people in the world seem 
to have a "magic wand" that brings them riches and all the 
good things in life, while the rest of the majority of
the people are hardly surviving? If yes, please stop 
wondering and let us show you why and how!

For the first time, all the powerful, jealously guarded 
SECRETS of the Rich and Powerful (that enable them to 
"wheel and deal" and pile up bundles of cash) are being
released to the public, for the benefit of anyone who
seriously desires financial security and true success!

In our detailed step by step cash kit, you'll 
discover one of the most powerful cash generating
secrets of the Rich and famous! How to open a "SPECIAL 
Bank Account", do 1-2hrs daily legal bank transaction 
and rake in $1,500+/week in solid cash! (100% legal and 
guaranteed, no scam involved!)

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
You can do it from ANY country, at anytime and 
whenever you like!
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////

One of our customers in Oregon recently made a whopping 
$4000 fast cash in one hour!

You'll also get  Four FREE bonus reports:

*The first will show you  how you can become our Associate 
Sales Agent, (ASA) and make another extra $2,500 marketing this 
famous Cash Program on the Internet! We'll set you up with 
your own website, merchant account to accept credit 
cards online, and an autoresponder, so that within 24hrs 
of From CMF at secretcash.com Tue Sep 12 04:12:26 EDT 2000
Return-Path: 
Received: from waste.minder.net (majordom at fw.minder.net [216.25.149.98])
	by domains.invweb.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA29506;
	Tue, 12 Sep 2000 04:12:25 -0400
Received: (from majordom at localhost)
	by waste.minder.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA30640
	for cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 04:12:04 -0400
Received: (from cpunks at localhost)
	by waste.minder.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA30633
	for cypherpunks at minder.net; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 04:12:04 -0400
Received: (from majordom at localhost)
	by waste.minder.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA30604
	for cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 04:11:46 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: waste.minder.net: majordom set sender to owner-cypherpunks at minder.net using -f
Received: from rna1.rn-a.de (mail.rn-a.de [212.60.16.30])
	by waste.minder.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA30600
	for ; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 04:11:43 -0400
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 04:11:43 -0400
X-Loop: openpgp.net
From: CMF at secretcash.com
Message-Id: <200009120811.EAA30600 at waste.minder.net>
Received: from 1Cust57.tnt7.beaverton.or.da.uu.net by rna1.rn-a.de with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49)
	id QF0GG6SW; Tue, 12 Sep 2000 10:07:20 +0200
Reply-To: CMF at secretcash.com
To: CMF at secretcash.com
Subject: Quick Cash Secret Banking System Available Now!
Subject: Quick Cash Secret Banking System Available Now!
Sender: owner-cypherpunks at minder.net


OPPORTUNITY IS NEVER LOST--IT JUST GOES TO THOSE WHO ARE READY!
___________________________________________________________
�����������������������������������������������������������
�����������������������������������������������������������
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 

IN THE NEW MILLENNIUM BUNDLES OF CASH AND 
HAPPINESS CAN BE YOURS!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

FREE "$1,500/WEEK CASH"  INFORMATION!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Dear Friend!
How are you today? We hope you're doing great.

We are happy to announce that after two long years of 
research, revision and testing, our famous Quick Cash Secret 
Banking System is now being released again to the general public, 
to benefit anyone who is interested in generating a guaranteed $1,500+/week 
in FAST cash without any hard work or large investment!

It is the fastest and the easiest money making system today in 
the world, used by all multimillionaires to pile up 
cash, without any huffing and puffing!

============================================
It is 100% legal, easy, fast and fun! There 
is no scam or shady transaction! It is NOT
any kind of banking transaction you may have 
heard about or know! It's Approved by
all government agencies, including the US 
Treasury Dept., American and International 
Banking Associations, The Fed, World bank 
and US Post Office!
============================================

Have you ever wondered why a few people in the world seem 
to have a "magic wand" that brings them riches and all the 
good things in life, while the rest of the majority of
the people are hardly surviving? If yes, please stop 
wondering and let us show you why and how!

For the first time, all the powerful, jealously guarded 
SECRETS of the Rich and Powerful (that enable them to 
"wheel and deal" and pile up bundles of cash) are being
released to the public, for the benefit of anyone who
seriously desires financial security and true success!

In our detailed step by step cash kit, you'll 
discover one of the most powerful cash generating
secrets of the Rich and famous! How to open a "SPECIAL 
Bank Account", do 1-2hrs daily legal bank transaction 
and rake in $1,500+/week in solid cash! (100% legal and 
guaranteed, no scam involved!)

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
You can do it from ANY country, at anytime and 
whenever you like!
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////

One of our customers in Oregon recently made a whopping 
$4000 fast cash in one hour!

You'll also get  Four FREE bonus reports:

*The first willgetting this powerful money making  machine, you'll start
generating solid cash!

*The second bonus will reveal to you a list of all the 
insiders' sources to get  FREE MONEY (No Payback!). 
You are guaranteed to get at least $10,000 to $50,000
 free cash to spend as you please, within the next month!

*The third bonus will show how to wipe out all your debts, 
clean your credit history, get a new credit line worth
thousands of dollars (as good as cash!), so that you'll  
enter the new millennium, with the peace of mind and good 
health that you deserve! 

*The fourth will show how to raise "$100,000 in 24hrs," 
by applying a little known, BUT powerful multimillionaire
cash flow strategy! It takes about 12 steps and a month 
to implement this secret financial transaction, then you
can walk into your bank and legally ask your bank manager 
to advance $100,000 to you, and you'll get it within 24hrs, 
by law! (These information secrets are the jealously-guarded 
secret millionaires' financial strategies, not available in the 
library, universities, or from your financial advisor!)
We are so sure of the power of this secret cash making
system that we guarantee that you'll make money your 
first week! We'll prove it to you by helping you put at 
least $1000 in your pocket one week after you get this 
Millionaires' Secret Banking Package! You'll have one whole
year to try it, and  then if you don't succeed for
any reason, you'll get double your money back! This is 
a LEGAL, ironclad, airtight cash guarantee to show you 
that we are serious!

So, if you are sick and tired of wasting your time, money 
and life dibble-dabbling in harebrained moneymaking schemes
that are nothing but worthless puffery, thank your lucky 
stars and send for our eye-opening free details right now!

Test us! Allow us to stuff at least $1,500 in easy fast 
CASH in your pocket starting next week! Blast into the 
new millennium with a new lease on life, Financial 
Security, Success, Prosperity and Happiness!

Everything you know is based on what has already happened in your life. 
And yet, your only influence right now is over things that have not yet
happened. The things that have already happened have gotten you to 
where you are right now. What you need to be concerned with, however, 
is where to go from here.

Because you're so intimately familiar with your own past, it may seem 
you have no choice but to continue moving in the same direction as 
before. But that is not true. Your future doesn't equal your past. 
Right now, there are an infinite number of paths you can take. 
The one you're currently on is only one of them. Any of the rest is 
available to you.

If you're completely satisfied with where you're going, then, by all 
means keep on going that way. But there's no reason in the world you 
have to keep following that same path if it doesn't bring you full and 
lasting fulfillment.

Every moment you have a choice, regardless of what has happened before.
Choose right now to move forward, positively, and confidently into your
incredible future.

For FREE details, hurry and callf the number below!:

                              1-800-999-1754

 
Thank you and have a nice day!

Sincerely,
CMF Enterprises

 =================End================
*****************************************
This is a legitimate business announcement, being
sent in compliance with all rules & regulations
that govern internet commerce. We respect your 
privacy. Your name  is not in our mailing list so, 
you'll get this e-mail only once!  You must respond
quickly to take advantage of our "special offer! 
Thank you and have a nice day!
*****************************************************




 show you  how you can become our Associate 
Sales Agent, (ASA) and make another extra $2,500 marketing this 
famous Cash Program on the Internet! We'll set you up with 
your own website, merchant account to accept credit 
cards online, and an autoresponder, so that within 24hrs 
of getting this powerful money making  machine, you'll start
generating solid cash!

*The second bonus will reveal to you a list of all the 
insiders' sources to get  FREE MONEY (No Payback!). 
You are guaranteed to get at least $10,000 to $50,000
 free cash to spend as you please, within the next month!

*The third bonus will show how to wipe out all your debts, 
clean your credit history, get a new credit line worth
thousands of dollars (as good as cash!), so that you'll  
enter the new millennium, with the peace of mind and good 
health that you deserve! 

*The fourth will show how to raise "$100,000 in 24hrs," 
by applying a little known, BUT powerful multimillionaire
cash flow strategy! It takes about 12 steps and a month 
to implement this secret financial transaction, then you
can walk into your bank and legally ask your bank manager 
to advance $100,000 to you, and you'll get it within 24hrs, 
by law! (These information secrets are the jealously-guarded 
secret millionaires' financial strategies, not available in the 
library, universities, or from your financial advisor!)
We are so sure of the power of this secret cash making
system that we guarantee that you'll make money your 
first week! We'll prove it to you by helping you put at 
least $1000 in your pocket one week after you get this 
Millionaires' Secret Banking Package! You'll have one whole
year to try it, and  then if you don't succeed for
any reason, you'll get double your money back! This is 
a LEGAL, ironclad, airtight cash guarantee to show you 
that we are serious!

So, if you are sick and tired of wasting your time, money 
and life dibble-dabbling in harebrained moneymaking schemes
that are nothing but worthless puffery, thank your lucky 
stars and send for our eye-opening free details right now!

Test us! Allow us to stuff at least $1,500 in easy fast 
CASH in your pocket starting next week! Blast into the 
new millennium with a new lease on life, Financial 
Security, Success, Prosperity and Happiness!

Everything you know is based on what has already happened in your life. 
And yet, your only influence right now is over things that have not yet
happened. The things that have already happened have gotten you to 
where you are right now. What you need to be concerned with, however, 
is where to go from here.

Because you're so intimately familiar with your own past, it may seem 
you have no choice but to continue moving in the same direction as 
before. But that is not true. Your future doesn't equal your past. 
Right now, there are an infinite number of paths you can take. 
The one you're currently on is only one of them. Any of the rest is 
available to you.

If you're completely satisfied with where you're going, then, by all 
means keep on going that way. But there's no reason in the world you 
have to keep following that same path if it doesn't bring you full and 
lasting fulfillment.

Every moment you have a choice, regardless of what has happened before.
Choose right now to move forward, positively, and confidently into your
incredible future.

For FREE details, hurry and callf the number below!:

                              1-800-999-1754

 
Thank you and have a nice day!

Sincerely,
CMF Enterprises

 =================End================
*****************************************
This is a legitimate business announcement, being
sent in compliance with all rules & regulations
that govern internet commerce. We respect your 
privacy. Your name  is not in our mailing list so, 
you'll get this e-mail only once!  You must respond
quickly to take advantage of our "special offer! 
Thank you and have a nice day!
*****************************************************







From postmaster at engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM  Mon Sep 11 21:44:52 2000
From: postmaster at engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: 12 Sep 2000 04:44:52 +0000
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
In-Reply-To: Tim May's message of "Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:44:30 -0700"
References: 
Message-ID: <87k8cigqwr.fsf@challah.msrl.com>

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

In article ,
Tim May  wrote:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/13169.html
> 
> "Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this
> afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that
> OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at
> slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"

$30 (now $35) is the price of a barrel of *light sweet crude*, not the
price of a barrel of refined gasoline.
-- 
Shields.




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 05:31:54 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 07:31:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Attention: Any! sun.com users of the CDR
Message-ID: 


Hi,

I am receiving a bunch of bounces from some user at an unknown sun.com
address. There is apparently a 'private' or 'internal' mailing list
subscribed to SSZ. And then that list sends to some user at sun.com.
Unfortunately the address is not one setup to receive email. I have no
direct subscribers to sun.com. This means the only option I have is to go
through the subscriber list one at a time and remove each subscriber and
send a test message till it bounces. At that point I'll have to remove
that entire alias. This will effect more than this single recipient.

I have contacted sun.com requesting they verify their address is 'send
only'. If you happen to be a sun.com user you might want to look into it
as well.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM  Tue Sep 12 08:04:34 2000
From: postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 08:04:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
In-Reply-To: <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------



On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Tom Vogt wrote:

>sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. this is an
>economic puzzle, not a political one. food, clothes, tobacco, gas/petrol
>and a couple other things have a very unique price structure, in that
>the demand is pretty much independent of price - you just need so much
>food or tobacco or gas, no matter what it costs, and you don't have any
>need for more, no matter how cheap it is. 

Hmmm.  It seems unfair to slap a huge tax on something if there 
are *laws* in place requiring people to have and use it.  I'm 
thinking specifically of clothes, since you mentioned them.  Is 
clothing particularly heavily taxed?

In the presence of laws against public nudity, that would be 
roughly equivalent to a "head tax"...  

Since there are no laws requiring people to use gasoline/petrol, 
taxing it seems more fair to me - it at least presents people 
with a choice so they can pay up front (for an EV) or during
the vehicle's lifetime (for taxes).  Or if they are smart and 
fortune smiles upon them they can arrange their lives so they 
don't need cars. 

				Bear






From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Sep 12 08:31:18 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:31:18 -0400
Subject: CDR: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches for
Message-ID: 

The California legislature recently considered a law
(it apparently died in committee this year) which would 
mandate that all cars in the state be fitted with a device, 
which upon recieving an encrypted signal by laser or radio, 
would kill the engine. 

The apparent goal is to prevent car chases. 

The, bill, introduced by (State?) Senator Speier, is at 
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_2001-2050/sb_2004_bill_20000504_amend
ed_sen.html

There is substantial discussion at
http://www.technocrat.net/968678895/index_html

The bill requires that cars sold in the state after 2004 have the system, 
and cars registered after 2007 be retrofitted if neccessary.

It would be a crime to fail to fit or maintain it, or to bypass it.

It includes a provision to allow any peace officer to stop any
car at any time to inspect the system, without any mention
of warrants or probable cause.

I may write something for RISKS Digest about this.

Peter Trei





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 12 08:53:26 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:53:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: hawking DNA as unique IDs
Message-ID: <8d8ba8c981e31ec87de87e9dde705b57@melontraffickers.com>


Latest Use for Ones DNA --
               Thwarting Counterfeiters

               Carolyn Said, Chronicle Staff Writer 
                                                
                                               Monday, September 11,
                                               2000 



                       

               Syd the platypus, Millie the echidna
               and Olly the kookaburra have a secret
               weapon to foil counterfeiting crooks. 

               The furry mascots of the 2000 Summer
               Olympics in Sydney -- as well as an
               avalanche of caps, T-shirts, mugs, pins
               and other official Olympics
               merchandise -- are being tagged with
               invisible ink containing DNA strands
               from an unidentified Australian athlete. 

               The goal is to thwart increasingly
               sophisticated forgers trying to get a
               piece of the $389 million market for
               Olympics keepsakes. 

               High-quality infringements have
               increased during the past couple of
               months leading up to the games, said
               Catherine McGill, legal counsel and
               brand protection manager for the
               Sydney Organizing Committee for the
               Olympic Games. Detail-oriented
               counterfeiters copy the swing tags,
               sewn-in labels and packaging. That is
               where the DNA comes into its own as
               being the absolutely foolproof, sure
               way to determine if something is fake. 

               Other ways to combat counterfeiting,
               such as holograms, can be duplicated
               by determined bootleggers. 

               The DNA-laced ink is being applied to
               most of the 3,500 official souvenirs --
               some 50 million individual items. Its
               the largest deployment ever of DNA as
               a security device. 

               McGill oversees a team of 60
               logocops equipped with special
               scanners that can detect the DNA ink.
               The logocops will roam Sydney and
               other Australian cities, 

               pouncing on street vendors and retail
               outlets to determine whether their
               merchandise is authentic. Australian
               customs officials have already seized
               more than 120,000 phony Olympics
               souvenirs worth millions of dollars that
               were being sent into the country from
               overseas, largely from Asia, she said. 

               DNA Technologies of Los Angeles is
               the company behind the initiative,
               which reportedly costs about 5 cents
               per item. 

               Chris Outwater, president of DNA
               Technologies, said the process
               involves extracting DNA from a blood
               sample, taking a fraction of it, then
               amplifying it and adding a small
               amount to the invisible ink. Some junk
               DNA is also thrown into the mix as a
               red herring, he said. 

               Theres no way someone could take (a
               sample tag) and reproduce the mark,
               he said. Imagine standing outside the
               New York City Public Library and
               challenging a counterfeiter: Im using
               one sentence from one book inside that
               library you find that sentence. Thats
               how daunting it would be for someone
               to figure out what the code is. 

               Using DNA, the unique biological
               signature of each human, for such a
               commercial purpose signifies how
               society has come to view DNA as a
               magic potion, said Susan Lindee,
               co-author of The DNA Mystique: The
               Gene as a Cultural Icon, a 1995 book.
               Its the commercialization of the
               genome to the most ridiculous degree,
               she said. Promoters have been
               successful at weaving into popular
               culture the idea that DNA is the
               ultimate arbiter of whats true,
               authentic, real. 

               She challenged Outwaters assertion
               that a DNA security code would be
               counterfeit-proof. Most people dont
               have that kind of technical expertise,
               but if theyre only using a sequence
               there are plenty of individuals who
               could be hired (to duplicate it), she
               said. If it became truly profitable --
               lets say all designer clothing were
               tagged with DNA -- thered be
               somebody who had a financial stake in
               figuring out how to copy the DNA and
               fake it. 

               Outwater said some well-known
               designer brands have adopted the
               technology on sewn-in labels, but
               prefer not to publicize it. He hopes to
               extend the technology to such areas as
               pharmaceuticals and cosmetics, and to
               secure documents and financial
               instruments, including passports,
               currency and ID cards. 

               A reliable, duplication-proof means of
               authenticating goods is sorely needed.
               Counterfeit goods in the United States
               amount to some $200 billion a year. 

               Fine arts and sports collectibles are
               areas where authentication is crucial.
               Artist Thomas Kinkade incorporates
               some of his own DNA into the
               signatures inked on his artwork. 

               PSA/DNA Authentication Services of
               Newport Beach (Orange County)
               licenses the DNA Technologies
               product to authenticate sports
               memorabilia and autographs. After
               starting with Mark McGwires
               record-setting 70th home-run ball, it
               next tagged Hank Aarons 715th
               home-run ball and bat, and now
               broadly uses the technology. 

               Major League Baseball asked us to
               authenticate all the game balls used
               during the World Series, said Jason
               Meyerson, PSA/DNA president. We
               can apply the DNA onto the surface of
               any collectible with a custom-made
               felt-tip pen. 

               The company will provide
               representatives to stand next to Joe
               Montana as he signs autographs and
               mark each one with the invisible DNA
               ink, Meyerson said. Whats beautiful
               about it is that its permanent,
               nontransferable and invisible. 





From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Tue Sep 12 13:47:00 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009122047.NAA73784@e8.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: flaming_perimeter

Your email address: 
  cypherpunks at toad.com

We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
forget your Yahoo! ID or password.  
To learn how to change this address, read below.

**********************************************************

WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT?

You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of 
Yahoo's free, personalized services.   

My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
Yahoo Calendar - http://calendar.yahoo.com
Yahoo Chat - http://chat.yahoo.com
Yahoo Classifieds - http://classifieds.yahoo.com
Yahoo Clubs - http://clubs.yahoo.com
Yahoo Finance - http://quote.yahoo.com
Yahoo Games - http://play.yahoo.com
Yahoo GeoCities - http://geocities.yahoo.com
Yahoo Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com
Yahoo Message Boards - http://messages.yahoo.com
Yahoo Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.com
Yahoo Travel - http://travel.yahoo.com

To see a full list go to 
  http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/family/more.html

You can return to Yahoo! Chat by going to
  http://chat.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE EMAIL ADDRESS ON YOUR ACCOUNT

Just go to any of Yahoo!'s Personalized Properties 
( like http://my.yahoo.com ) and look for the Account 
Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
under the options).  The Account Information page will 
let you update your email address, password, home and work 
address and other personal information and preferences.

**********************************************************

THANK YOU FOR SIGNING UP WITH YAHOO!

If you have additional questions regarding other Yahoo! 
Services, we suggest Yahoo! Help Central at: 
http://help.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to
use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the 
following address:
http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV%2bemJzYnU4jiF5SmQyMnJ0eWBzdmV3dDIhdUpOMU8wTjYxNTchc0pkf2Zz

If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SmQyMnJ0eWBzdmV3dDIhdUpOMU8wTjYxNTchc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your 
reply) with REMOVE as the subject line.

[216.116.34.30]


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 6566 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From horwitz at argoscomp.com  Tue Sep 12 10:52:43 2000
From: horwitz at argoscomp.com (Samuel A Horwitz)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:52:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ANNOUNCE: OpenSSL 0.9.6 Beta 1
In-Reply-To: <20000911164349.A6933@openssl.org>
Message-ID: 

Successful build on AIX 4.3.2

OpenSSL 0.9.6-beta1 [engine] 11 Sep 2000
built on: Tue Sep 12 13:20:46 EDT 2000
platform: aix-gcc
options:  bn(64,32) md2(int) rc4(ptr,char) des(idx,cisc,4,long) idea(int) 
blowfish(idx)
sh(idx) 
compiler: gcc -O3 -DAIX -DB_ENDIAN







On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Richard Levitte wrote:

> Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 16:43:50 +0200
> From: Richard Levitte 
> To: OpenSSL Announce ML ,
>     OpenSSL User Support ML ,
>     OpenSSL Developer ML , coderpunks at toad.com,
>     cypherpunks at openpgp.net, cryptography at c2.net
> Cc: vms-web-daemon at kjsl.com, vms-ssh at alpha.sggw.waw.pl
> Subject: ANNOUNCE: OpenSSL 0.9.6 Beta 1
> 
> 
>   OpenSSL version 0.9.6 Beta 1
>   ============================
> 
>   OpenSSL - The Open Source toolkit for SSL/TLS
>   http://www.openssl.org/
> 
>   OpenSSL is currently in a release cycle.  The first beta is now released.
>   This beta is in fact two releases, one for the current mainstream
>   OpenSSL, and one with an "engine" branch incorporated.  The "engine"
>   branch contains an interface to external crypto libraries, which is
>   currently used to support the hardware devices CryptoSwift (by CryptoSwift
>   Inc), Atalla (by Compaq) and CHIL (previously called HWCryptoHook, by
>   nCipher) as well as the internal OpenSSL routines.
> 
>   The two beta releases are available for download via HTTP and FTP from the
>   following master locations (the various FTP mirrors you can find under
>   http://www.openssl.org/source/mirror.html):
> 
>     o http://www.openssl.org/source/
>     o ftp://ftp.openssl.org/source/
> 
>   The file names of the two betas are:
> 
>     o openssl-0.9.6-beta1.tar.gz
>     o openssl-engine-0.9.6-beta1.tar.gz
> 
>   Please download and test it as soon as possible.  This new OpenSSL version
>   incorporates 75 changes and bugfixes to the toolkit (for a complete list
>   see http://www.openssl.org/source/exp/CHANGES).
> 
>   Yours,
>   The OpenSSL Project Team...  
> 
>     Mark J. Cox             Richard Levitte    Andy Polyakov
>     Ralf S. Engelschall     Bodo M�ller        Holger Reif
>     Dr. Stephen Henson      Ulf M�ller         Geoff Thorpe
>     Ben Laurie              
> 
> --
> Richard Levitte         levitte at openssl.org
> OpenSSL Project         http://www.openssl.org/~levitte/
> Software Engineer, Celo Communications: http://www.celocom.com/
> ______________________________________________________________________
> OpenSSL Project                                 http://www.openssl.org
> User Support Mailing List                    openssl-users at openssl.org
> Automated List Manager                           majordomo at openssl.org
> 


horwitz at argoscomp.com (Samuel A Horwitz)





From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 10:58:53 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:58:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: DNA
Message-ID: <39BE6ECC.F18B37B0@lsil.com>

Does UV light destroy DNA? I know it is a reasonable way to sterilize
water ( with some caveats ) which it does by denaturing proteins. 

If DNA is also destroyed would not a baseball eventually become
invalidated just by sitting on a shelf? 

What other weaknesses are there? 

As someone wears and handles clothing, washes it along with clothing
worn by others wouldn't the DNA become damaged or contaminated? 

Is it only useful as a mfr to retail validation?

Sounds trendy but I'd bet it has problems.





From tcmay at got.net  Tue Sep 12 11:11:26 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:11:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches
In-Reply-To: <39BE6D16.9BF1D33E@lsil.com>
References: <39BE6D16.9BF1D33E@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:48 PM -0400 9/12/00, Michael Motyka wrote:
>This has been around for a couple of years. It was started by a
>politician from San Jose who I think has some connection$ to a startup
>that makes a product called Halt. Golly, he wouldn't be abusing the
>public trust would he? A quick search didn't turn up either the SJMN
>article or anything else but it's there somewhere. Anyway, these are
>bad^H^H^H truly evil people^H^H^H^H^H^H scumbags. It's worth keeping an
>eye on them and trying to create publicity when the bill mutates and
>crawls out of the cesspool again. Which it will do annually until it is
>passed. I would doubt that voters would approve a measure like this if
>they knew enough about it. Generally it's limited publicity controlled
>by the proposers that lets this sort of garbage bloom.
>
>Found something : http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a383094c56f00.htm
>
>OK background. Discussion board. All predictable stuff.
>
>When a bill is passed the sooner the system is hacked and the mfgrs are
>in the liability courts the better. I can't really say what I want to
>say about the company and the politicians...the sensors are everywhere.

There was some talk on the Cypherpunks list some years back. May be 
findable in the archives with Google.

The political scumdroids will of course write liability exemptions 
into the laws. (Don't think they can do that? It's done a lot, 
especially when "it's for the children!!" gets invoked.)

As for what should be done with such scumdroids and the legal pieces 
of shit who support their actions, I'm not afraid to say what should 
be done with them: more freedom fighters like McVeigh need to park 
trucks filled with ANFO in front of their dens. That, or biological 
and nerve agents. Wiping out several hundred in one legislative 
session would send a message.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Tue Sep 12 11:23:34 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:23:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
Message-ID: 


Tim wrote

> At 10:35 AM -0700 9/12/00, Marshall Clow wrote:
> >	Refinery:		17.2 [ I'm guessing this includes raw 
> >oil costs ]
> >	Retailer:		 4.2
> >	VAT:		12.64
> >	Duty:		50.89
> >
> >	Total		84.9 [ this is the price at the pump ]
> >
> >that's 74.8% tax, folks.
> 
> Which is of course what the original article was saying.
> 
> A nit, but "74.8% tax" may be misleading to some. It suggests a tax 
> rate of "only" about 10 times the normal sales tax (normal in the 
> States, for ordinary goods). In fact, the 75% is of course 75% of the 
> final price. Or, roughly a 400% tax on the original commodity.
> 
> For example, imagine a Jaguar XK8 costing $60K plus $240K in taxes. 
> 75% in taxes would suggest 60K plus 45K. The oil situation is 400% in 
> taxes.
> 
A nit on a nit: This is ~300% tax, not ~400%. Consider: 10 pounds worth
(to the refiner/dealer) of petrol yeilds s the British government about 30 
pounds of taxes. ie, 300% of the cost of the item.

It's still mind-boggling that a nominally free people will put up with this
kind
of organized theft.

Peter 

> Welcome to statism.
> 
> 
> --Tim May
> 




From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep 12 12:02:52 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:02:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches
References: <39BE6D16.9BF1D33E@lsil.com> 
Message-ID: <39BE7D10.5ED3FD73@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
 be done with them: more freedom fighters like McVeigh need to park
> trucks filled with ANFO in front of their dens. That, or biological
> and nerve agents. Wiping out several hundred in one legislative
> session would send a message.

a message - yes.

but which one? here's a suggestion: "we need more police, laws and
control to avoid such things."

I was about to offer a bet on this, but I guess nobody will take it. :)





From postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM  Tue Sep 12 06:26:58 2000
From: postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:26:58 +0200
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
Message-ID: <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Tim May wrote:
> "Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this
> afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that
> OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at
> slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"

this is true, and similiar pretty much all over europe.

> 
> This is from the U.K., where tax policy is ahead of that of the U.S.
> Whilst we are (almost) ready to mcveigh the tax collectors and wipe
> out millions of burrowcrats, the Brits are quite sheeplike in
> accepting taxes which are several times the price of the underlying
> commodity. Germany, France, Sweden, Italy, and essentially all other
> European nations are similarly sheep-like in their acceptance of such
> taxes.

sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. this is an
economic puzzle, not a political one. food, clothes, tobacco, gas/petrol
and a couple other things have a very unique price structure, in that
the demand is pretty much independent of price - you just need so much
food or tobacco or gas, no matter what it costs, and you don't have any
need for more, no matter how cheap it is. it's therefore been a
long-known fact that you can change prices for this stuff at will
without any change in demand. the only thing stopping you is the
competition.
now a tax is valid for everyone, so the last stop gap is out. therefore,
gas and tobacco are the two highest-taxed items here in germany, and I'm
fairly sure in most of europe.

why don't we complain? oh, we do (a little). :)

in the end, it doesn't matter much. I don't think europeans pay much
more in taxes than US citizen do, it's just distributed differently.




From postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM  Tue Sep 12 06:28:37 2000
From: postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM (postmaster at engmail3.Eng.Sun.COM)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:28:37 +0200
Subject: REJECTED MESSAGE: REJECTED MESSAGE: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
	 <87k8cigqwr.fsf@challah.msrl.com> 
Message-ID: <39BE2F85.FEE39044@ricardo.de>

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Your message has been rejected and is being returned because it
appears to be a reply to an alias that is designed for one-way
communication only.  You should reply only to the sender of a message
sent to one-way aliases.

If you wish to complain about abuse of a one-way alias, you should send
E-mail to the postmaster of your domain.  For example, postmaster at Eng.

If your E-mail was addressed to more than one alias protected by this
filter then you will get a copy of this message for each protected
alias.

Thank you for your cooperation and consideration,
-- Postmaster

P.S. This is an automatically generated message.

-----------------Begin Returned Message-------------------

Tim May wrote:
> The quote said nothing to the contrary. Crude results in some
> fraction of gasoline/petrol, and taxes are applied. His point was
> that the taxes are about 4-5 times the cost of the underlying petrol,
> which is about what it is in the U.K. (Last I heard, gas in the U.K.
> is about the equivalent of about $4-5 a gallon for unleaded regular.)

germany: ca. 2 marks per litre, which means $4 per gallon. give or take
a little due to currency fluctuations and whatever.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 12 12:40:58 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 15:40:58 -0400
Subject: CDR: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
Message-ID: <0fbaa27cee1277f5c4941003534099bd@melontraffickers.com>


So when is APster coming out, which lets
you trade lists of deserving people?



Tuesday September 12 5:11 AM ET
     Abortion Web Site Verdict Appealed

     By WILLIAM McCALL, Associated Press Writer 

     PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) - Anti-abortion activists are
     asking a federal appeals court to overturn a $109 million
     verdict by a jury that decided a Web site and posters listing
     the names of abortion doctors and clinics were threats that
     went beyond free speech.

     The case is widely seen as a test of a Supreme Court ruling that defined a threat as
     explicit language likely to cause imminent lawless action - and a measure of how
     far anti-abortion activists can go in harrying doctors and clinics.

     Oral arguments in the appeal are scheduled Tuesday before a panel of the 9th U.S.
     Circuit Court of Appeals.

     At issue is a Web site called The Nuremberg Files that listed hundreds of abortion
     doctors accused of committing crimes against humanity and invited readers to
     send in doctors addresses, license plate numbers and even the names of their
     children.

     Last year, the dozen anti-abortion activists argued the posters and Web site were
     free speech protected under the First Amendment. Critics called it a hit list.

     The jury was told by U.S. District Judge Robert Jones to consider the history of
     violence in the anti-abortion movement, including three doctors killed after their
     names appeared on the lists.

     One was Dr. Barnett Slepian, who was gunned down by a sniper in October 1998 at
     his home near Buffalo, N.Y. Slepians name was crossed out on The Nuremberg
     Files Web site later that day.

     In 1995, Planned Parenthood and four doctors sued the anti-abortion activists under
     federal racketeering statutes and the 1994 Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances
     Act, which makes it illegal to incite violence against abortion doctors and their
     patients.

     Jones told the jury the Wanted-style posters and Web site were not free speech if
     a reasonable person could perceive them as threats.

     But a number of legal experts have criticized the February 1999 jury verdict and
     those instructions, saying a threat must be explicit.

     If youre looking for a case likely to go to the Supreme Court, this is one, said Lee
     Tornquist, a law professor who specializes in the First Amendment at Willamette
     University in Salem, Ore.

     Others consider the jury decision sound.

     Margie Kelly, spokeswoman for the Center for Reproductive Law and Policy in
     New York, said Jones correctly told the jury to weigh any threat in context.

     This is a case that is built on history, Kelly said. You have had years of arson,
     shootings, death threats. How can that context be considered anything but a threat?

     The Georgia computer programmer who ran the Nuremberg Files was not a
     defendant in the lawsuit. After the verdict, his Internet provider pulled the plug on
     the site.

     Among the anti-abortion activists appealing the ruling is Michael Bray of Bowie,
     Md., author of a book that justifies killing doctors to stop abortions. Bray served
     time in federal prison from 1985 to 1989 for his role in arson attacks and bombings
     of seven clinics.






From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 13:01:10 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:01:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches
Message-ID: <39BE8C46.BABDF497@lsil.com>

> The political scumdroids will of course write liability exemptions 
> into the laws. (Don't think they can do that? It's done a lot, 
> especially when "it's for the children!!" gets invoked.)
> 
Oh, I believe it. It fits right in with the "tort reform" platform.

> As for what should be done with such scumdroids and the legal pieces 
> of shit who support their actions, I'm not afraid to say what should 
> be done with them: more freedom fighters like McVeigh need to park 
> trucks filled with ANFO in front of their dens. That, or biological 
> and nerve agents. Wiping out several hundred in one legislative 
> session would send a message.
>
I enjoy the rhetorical device of visiting death and destruction on the
bad guys and clearly there is no shortage of politicians whose actual
passing out of this life -by unspecified means- would make the world a
safer, cleaner place but calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the
mark. 0 points for that one. 

Anyway, I'd like to see some details about that Halt disease so that
when my car catches it the vaccine development is already well underway.

Mike





From marcel at aiurea.com  Tue Sep 12 13:19:08 2000
From: marcel at aiurea.com (Marcel Popescu)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:19:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
References: <0fbaa27cee1277f5c4941003534099bd@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <006d01c01cf6$61ee3eb0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>

More stuff for Freenet, it seems. I'm really curious how "they" would
consider handling such documents instead MP3s - better or worse?

Mark


From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 12 16:45:22 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:45:22 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
Message-ID: <48d56e94e472edcc1b6edd8649fed727@melontraffickers.com>

>Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs

Who cares ? Stop whining and use encryption.

Dont waste the bandwidth complaining about each and every sheeple
xploiting event. Being outraged doesnt achieve shit.





From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep 12 14:00:33 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:00:33 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: GA-CAT-CA
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.3.1.2.20000909103839.02544ee8@shell11.ba.best.com>
 
  
Message-ID: 

At 9:25 PM -0700 on 9/11/00, petro wrote:


>>including subpoenas for, apparently now, Snowball's fur...
>>
> 	Funny you should mention Snowball...
>
> 	http://www.ornl.gov/hgmis/elsi/forensics.html

Heh.

That was my *point*, I think...

:-).

Cheers,

RAH
Who admits to listening to National People's Radio on occasion...
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 14:00:35 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:00:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes 
Message-ID: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>


> So when is APster coming out, which lets
> you trade lists of deserving people?
> 
It may actually be extremely difficult to create an APster.

...

The violent anti-abortion movement's method for coping with coexistent
conflicting thoughts and behaviors is a form of dysfunction not unlike
that of a stroke patient who sees himself in a mirror and is unable to
perceive his own paralysis or similar paralysis in others. A moribund
arm can be perceived as functioning normally. A half-paralyzed face can
be perceived as smiling left and right. Amazing. Pathetic.

Or criminal. Were I a doctor I would consider the Nuremberg Files site a
direct and credible threat. The jury decision was the correct one. 

Were the roles swapped and abortion completely outlawed why does it seem
unlikely that the legalize abortion movement would be listing for
termination or firebombing Fundamentalists? Which would you prefer as
your next door neighbor? 

>Tuesday September 12 5:11 AM ET
>     Abortion Web Site Verdict Appealed
>
>     By WILLIAM McCALL, Associated Press Writer 
>
>     PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) - Anti-abortion activists are
>     asking a federal appeals court to overturn a $109 million
>     verdict by a jury that decided a Web site and posters listing
>     the names of abortion doctors and clinics were threats that
>     went beyond free speech.
>
>     ...
>
>     At issue is a Web site called The Nuremberg Files that listed hundreds of abortion
>     doctors accused of committing crimes against humanity and invited readers to
>     send in doctors addresses, license plate numbers and even the names of their
>     children.
>
>     ...
>
>     Last year, the dozen anti-abortion activists argued the posters and Web site were
>     free speech protected under the First Amendment. Critics called it a hit list.
>
>     The jury was told by U.S. District Judge Robert Jones to consider the history of
>     violence in the anti-abortion movement, including three doctors killed after their
>     names appeared on the lists.
>
>     One was Dr. Barnett Slepian, who was gunned down by a sniper in October 1998 at
>     his home near Buffalo, N.Y. Slepians name was crossed out on The Nuremberg
>     Files Web site later that day.
>
>     ...
>
>     This is a case that is built on history, Kelly said. You have had years of arson,
>     shootings, death threats. How can that context be considered anything but a threat?
>
>     The Georgia computer programmer who ran the Nuremberg Files was not a
>     defendant in the lawsuit. After the verdict, his Internet provider pulled the plug on
>     the site.
>
>     Among the anti-abortion activists appealing the ruling is Michael Bray of Bowie,
>     Md., author of a book that justifies killing doctors to stop abortions. Bray served
>     time in federal prison from 1985 to 1989 for his role in arson attacks and bombings
>     of seven clinics.
>





From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 15:15:56 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:15:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Test - No Reply - Testing for nested bounces
Message-ID: 



    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Sep 12 14:44:32 2000
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:44:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
Message-ID: <200009122144.RAA03630@www2.aa.psiweb.com>

Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs
in received email to proxy through their server, meaning
they had logs of all URLs you visited when clicking on
hyperlinks while reading your personal email.

That this violates their own privacy policy.

For some reason Declan failed to report it. ;-)
Analog film chemicals must be affecting his judgement.

New note: if you bookmark the URL in the personal email someone
sent you, it bookmarks it at the USA.net address.

----

Here is the resulting URL in the new window USA.net opens
when you click on an URL in your email:

http://www.netaddress.com/tpl/Info/Popup?hidden___url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F

I just tried scooping it and using it directly, trying amazon here.

It worked.

Anyone have direct access to their own server logs?
What cookies/referrals/misc is logged on the receiving system?

Continue clicking, and it's still via USA.net.

It looks like a free "anonymizer" to me.




From rah at shipwright.com  Tue Sep 12 14:47:01 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:47:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
In-Reply-To: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>
References: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 

> APster

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a winner here.

Outstanding...

Cogito neologo est,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'





From jburnes at savvis.net  Tue Sep 12 14:50:23 2000
From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:50:23 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
In-Reply-To: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>
References: <39BE99D9.72D993FC@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <00091216484501.31045@reality.eng.savvis.net>

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:

> The violent anti-abortion movement's method for coping with coexistent
> conflicting thoughts and behaviors is a form of dysfunction not unlike
> that of a stroke patient who sees himself in a mirror and is unable to
> perceive his own paralysis or similar paralysis in others. A moribund
> arm can be perceived as functioning normally. A half-paralyzed face can
> be perceived as smiling left and right. Amazing. Pathetic.
>
> Or criminal. Were I a doctor I would consider the Nuremberg Files site a
> direct and credible threat. The jury decision was the correct one.
>

More to the point.  Would a supreme court ruling in this respect be a
good ruling.  Trying to read someone's mind and trying him on his
supposed thoughts is a little like convicting a man via ESP.

Despite the fact that the man running the site wrote that killing
abortion doctors would be justified, he did not explicitly state
that these people or their families should be harmed.  Shunned
perhaps, protested against perhaps.  But incitement to murder
should have an extremely high standard of evidence and equally
high protection of the supposed speech by the first amendment.

The second point assumes that a common citizen would react
by killing the people on his web page.  If a cypherpunk copied
his page and archived it on his website would it also be incitement
to murder?  The implication is that guilt or innocence is dependent
upon the visitors to your web site.  

If the supreme upholds this it could set a precedent to go after
any web site that publishes controversial data.  By the same
standard of evidence can we convict everyone that supplies
data regarding drugs, machine gun construction techniques,
bomb making info of 'knowing that someone would use it
to nefarious ends?'  The jury in this case says that the 
publisher of the information is responsible for the potential
use of the information.

And that is one long slippery slope.  Not that Congress 
wouldn't be game.

I think a more credible indictment would be charges of aiding
and abetting the killers.  Of course you need evidence
for that.  That takes real work from police detectives.
Gosh, couldn't have any of that.

For the record, I am not anti-abortion.

jim

-- 
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of
himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we
found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this
question.	-- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural





From anonymous at openpgp.net  Tue Sep 12 15:11:15 2000
From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:11:15 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill switches
Message-ID: <9a12e15191b5498d0c6a96bd9875054c@remailer.privacy.at>

Michael Motyka wrote:

> I enjoy the rhetorical device of visiting death and destruction on the
> bad guys and clearly there is no shortage of politicians whose actual
> passing out of this life -by unspecified means- would make the world a
> safer, cleaner place but calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the
> mark. 0 points for that one. 

Why?





From galt at inconnu.isu.edu  Tue Sep 12 17:28:21 2000
From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:28:21 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: <004701c01ca1$2520e8c0$145865cb@default>
Message-ID: 


Since you're using a HTML client as your MUA, it should be so easy that
even an idiot...oh! never mind.

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, scott mckay wrote:

> DONT TELL ME TOO LOOK IN A SEARCH ENGINE U RUDE PERSON AND FUCK TO U TO OKAY
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Click here for Free Video!!
> http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
> 
> 

-- 
FINE, I take it back: UNfuck you!

Who is John Galt?  galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who!




From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 16:04:43 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:04:43 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
Message-ID: <39BEB6E6.F2E1C82F@lsil.com>

Hmmm...

I'll stipulate that the common citizen, when faced with a tirade about
killing those who perform abortions and a list of names and addresses of
offenders, would not immediately put 2 and 2 together to make 3 and
start killing doctors. Now put yourself in the position of an average
citizen who sees his own name in the list following a tirade about
killing those who drive gasoline-guzzling, polluting, Corolla-crushing
SUVs. I'm sure he would feel threatened. So the site in question is not
the same as a site that simply expresses a political opinion or
distributes instructions on how to create dangerous devices. It is more
like a site that distributes this info and then list specific targets
that should be considered as applications. The site owners took a
concrete step towards carrying out a threat : they gathered and
published personal information. I'm sure the appeal to the jury was
along these lines.

OTOH perhaps you're right that speech of all sorts should have the
highest of protections regardless of how it is perceived by a
vanishingly small number of persons in the audience be they potential
agents or targets. In which case the choice of methods for dealing with
threats would be left solely to the individuals who perceive them.

I suppose there's a downside either way. Can't win. Best you can do is
break even. And you can't even do that.

>On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>> The violent anti-abortion movement's method for coping with coexistent
>> conflicting thoughts and behaviors is a form of dysfunction not unlike
>> that of a stroke patient who sees himself in a mirror and is unable to
>> perceive his own paralysis or similar paralysis in others. A moribund
>> arm can be perceived as functioning normally. A half-paralyzed face can
>> be perceived as smiling left and right. Amazing. Pathetic.
>>
>> Or criminal. Were I a doctor I would consider the Nuremberg Files site a
>> direct and credible threat. The jury decision was the correct one.
>>
>
>More to the point.  Would a supreme court ruling in this respect be a
>good ruling.  Trying to read someone's mind and trying him on his
>supposed thoughts is a little like convicting a man via ESP.
>
>Despite the fact that the man running the site wrote that killing
>abortion doctors would be justified, he did not explicitly state
>that these people or their families should be harmed.  Shunned
>perhaps, protested against perhaps.  But incitement to murder
>should have an extremely high standard of evidence and equally
>high protection of the supposed speech by the first amendment.
>
>The second point assumes that a common citizen would react
>by killing the people on his web page.  If a cypherpunk copied
>his page and archived it on his website would it also be incitement
>to murder?  The implication is that guilt or innocence is dependent
>upon the visitors to your web site.  
>
>If the supreme upholds this it could set a precedent to go after
>any web site that publishes controversial data.  By the same
>standard of evidence can we convict everyone that supplies
>data regarding drugs, machine gun construction techniques,
>bomb making info of 'knowing that someone would use it
>to nefarious ends?'  The jury in this case says that the 
>publisher of the information is responsible for the potential
>use of the information.
>
>And that is one long slippery slope.  Not that Congress 
>wouldn't be game.
>
>I think a more credible indictment would be charges of aiding
>and abetting the killers.  Of course you need evidence
>for that.  That takes real work from police detectives.
>Gosh, couldn't have any of that.
>
>For the record, I am not anti-abortion.
>
>jim
>





From umbros68 at one.net.au  Tue Sep 12 03:06:38 2000
From: umbros68 at one.net.au (scott mckay)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:36:38 +0930
Subject: CDR: DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!
Message-ID: <004701c01ca1$2520e8c0$145865cb@default>

DONT TELL ME TOO LOOK IN A SEARCH ENGINE U RUDE PERSON AND FUCK TO U TO OKAY
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 574 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From mmotyka at lsil.com  Tue Sep 12 16:41:55 2000
From: mmotyka at lsil.com (Michael Motyka)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:41:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: Why?
Message-ID: <39BEBEF6.C0D99CED@lsil.com>

>> ...calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the mark. 0 points for that one. 
>
>Why?
>
Only accomplishments : 
    a greal deal of pain for some plain folks
    a loss of legal ground that may never be recovered

Altruism and patriotism were not factors

I can't imagine what was



Broken eggs, not one trace of an omelette

Negative points I'd say.

Oh well.





From ichudov at Algebra.Com  Tue Sep 12 17:54:53 2000
From: ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:54:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Is Janer Reno a lesbian?
Message-ID: <200009130057.TAA19283@manifold.algebra.com>

see subject

	- Igor.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Tue Sep 12 17:10:25 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:10:25 -0400
Subject: CDR: VISA to smartcard the US
Message-ID: <25091dc6fdad8c13970116f045daa308@melontraffickers.com>

Sep 12, 2000 - 07:27 PM 

            Visa USA to Launch Smart Card in
            the U.S. 
            The Associated Press

            NEW YORK (AP) - After success with its smart card in
            Europe and Japan, Visa is aiming squarely at the U.S.
            market with an upgraded version that contains more
            memory. 

            Over the next couple of weeks, Visa USA, the
            companys U.S. division, will be launching smart cards
            - microprocessors embedded in plastic -that will offer
            prepackaged services to be determined by its issuers. 

            Customers will be able to download information from
            their computers via special card readers. Over the next
            year or so, they will be able to store airline tickets, for
            example, and eventually use the cards as keys to their
            cars and homes. 

            The card, which has 32 kilobytes of memory, is
            different from Visas original version, which has mainly
            served as a "monetary value card," said Al Banisch,
            senior vice president of consumer credit products. 

            The new card will be available free to Visas 350
            million cardholders. 





From chat-register at yahoo-inc.com  Tue Sep 12 20:25:40 2000
From: chat-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:25:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Chat
Message-ID: <200009130325.UAA12653@e10.my.yahoo.com>


Welcome to Yahoo!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR 
INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT.

This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. 

Your Yahoo! ID is: flaming_perimeter

Your email address: 
  cypherpunks at toad.com

We will use this address to contact you if you ever 
forget your Yahoo! ID or password.  
To learn how to change this address, read below.

**********************************************************

WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT?

You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of 
Yahoo's free, personalized services.   

My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com
Yahoo Calendar - http://calendar.yahoo.com
Yahoo Chat - http://chat.yahoo.com
Yahoo Classifieds - http://classifieds.yahoo.com
Yahoo Clubs - http://clubs.yahoo.com
Yahoo Finance - http://quote.yahoo.com
Yahoo Games - http://play.yahoo.com
Yahoo GeoCities - http://geocities.yahoo.com
Yahoo Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com
Yahoo Message Boards - http://messages.yahoo.com
Yahoo Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.com
Yahoo Travel - http://travel.yahoo.com

To see a full list go to 
  http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/family/more.html

You can return to Yahoo! Chat by going to
  http://chat.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE EMAIL ADDRESS ON YOUR ACCOUNT

Just go to any of Yahoo!'s Personalized Properties 
( like http://my.yahoo.com ) and look for the Account 
Information link at the top of the page (sometimes it's 
under the options).  The Account Information page will 
let you update your email address, password, home and work 
address and other personal information and preferences.

**********************************************************

THANK YOU FOR SIGNING UP WITH YAHOO!

If you have additional questions regarding other Yahoo! 
Services, we suggest Yahoo! Help Central at: 
http://help.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************

IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to
use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the 
following address:
http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV%2bemJzYnU4jiF5SmMyNX94NDV6YmEwfXohdUpOMU9PNjIyNE4hc0pkf2Zz

If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL
above, please use the following deletion key:

IXtKYXtmen55YGh3YnV+emJzYnU4jiF5SmMyNX94NDV6YmEwfXohdUpOMU9PNjIyNE4hc0pkf2Zz

Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to 
this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your 
reply) with REMOVE as the subject line.

[216.116.34.143]


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 6568 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From tom at ricardo.de  Tue Sep 12 11:55:35 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 20:55:35 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
Message-ID: <39BE7C27.58ED1DC4@ricardo.de>

Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Hmmm.  It seems unfair to slap a huge tax on something if there
> are *laws* in place requiring people to have and use it.  I'm
> thinking specifically of clothes, since you mentioned them.  Is
> clothing particularly heavily taxed?

not that I knew of. I included it for the *economic* argument - there
are other horizonal price structure items that are not heavily taxed -
food, for example.



> Since there are no laws requiring people to use gasoline/petrol,
> taxing it seems more fair to me - it at least presents people
> with a choice so they can pay up front (for an EV) or during
> the vehicle's lifetime (for taxes).  Or if they are smart and
> fortune smiles upon them they can arrange their lives so they
> don't need cars.

something similiar holds for tobacco. however, fact is that almost
nobody reduces is driving or smoking habits if prices go up. there is a
short drop in consumption, but as the shock wears off, consumption
returns to normal. we're speaking a few days, at most a week or two
here.




From marlyse at worldonline.fr  Tue Sep 12 12:09:18 2000
From: marlyse at worldonline.fr (malou)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:09:18 +0200
Subject: CDR: Sender: owner-cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com
Message-ID: <002f01c01cec$f5aba3e0$1c0313d5@malou>

could you give me some decoders which can decode the satellite like:
sky One or others channels on astra or Hot Bird...
And don't forget keys for the decrypting...
I thank you.
My configuration is a pII 233 with 64 megs of ram and a tuner card BT878.
If you can give me english links about good vidéo-decrypting for satellite,and if you can find me keys in.VCK or .VCR, it will be very sympatic to contact me ...Thank you a lot...

Nucléus and malou...We are french, excuse us for our bad prononciation...Marlyse is very bad in english(Joke)

Marlyse at worldonline.fr  
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 1330 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:17:30 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:17:30 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
In-Reply-To: <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>
References: 
 <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: 

>Tim May wrote:
>>  "Here's something to think about - while queuing up for petrol this
>>  afternoon (yes - I confess to being a panic buyer) I worked out that
>>  OPEC is charging $30 a barrel and our government is taxing us at
>>  slightly over $150 a barrel - ouch!"
>
>this is true, and similiar pretty much all over europe.
>
>>
>>  This is from the U.K., where tax policy is ahead of that of the U.S.
>>  Whilst we are (almost) ready to mcveigh the tax collectors and wipe
>>  out millions of burrowcrats, the Brits are quite sheeplike in
>>  accepting taxes which are several times the price of the underlying
>>  commodity. Germany, France, Sweden, Italy, and essentially all other
>>  European nations are similarly sheep-like in their acceptance of such
>>  taxes.
>
>sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. this is an
>economic puzzle, not a political one. food, clothes, tobacco, gas/petrol

	Then you neither understand politics, or economics.

	And no, I don't claim to either, but as near as I can tell 
there isn't a  spits worth of difference between economics and 
politics.

>and a couple other things have a very unique price structure, in that
>the demand is pretty much independent of price - you just need so much
>food or tobacco or gas, no matter what it costs, and you don't have any

	Food maybe, but tobacco and gas are both things that *can* be 
done without.

>in the end, it doesn't matter much. I don't think europeans pay much
>more in taxes than US citizen do, it's just distributed differently.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 19:30:25 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:30:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: <39BEBEF6.C0D99CED@lsil.com>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:

>     a greal deal of pain for some plain folks

The folks who worked at the federal building were far from 'plain' folks.
It isn't like they walked into a corner grocery.

In addition, the plain fact is there is a considerable underground
movement in this country today which is in direct and potentialy violent
opposition to this countries current political infra-structure.

Ask yourself this, how could a fugitive who is wanted for several bombings
stay un-found for four years? He certainly isn't working by himself and
there is considerable funding available clearly.

Minimize the politics as you may, it's just sticking your head in the
ground. These sorts of incidents are just the tip of an iceberg.

>     a loss of legal ground that may never be recovered

What legal ground was lost through the execution, apprehension, and
presecution of these people?


    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Tue Sep 12 18:36:30 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:36:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: DNA
In-Reply-To: Michael Motyka's message of "Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:58:53 -0400"
References: <39BE6ECC.F18B37B0@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <84wvghxee4.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Michael Motyka  writes:

> Does UV light destroy DNA? I know it is a reasonable way to sterilize
> water ( with some caveats ) which it does by denaturing proteins. 

UV light tends to totally hose up the DNA. The main problem, at least
in bacteria, is caused by the creation of a bunch of
cyclobutane-pyrimidine dimers and pyrimidine dimers. An enzyme called
photolyase cuts pyramidine dimers to get the original _two_
pyramidines back. (Photolyase uses visible light for activation, if
anyone cares.) This is a repair mechanism, but doesn't work 100% of
the time and has the occasional error.

The short answer is that UV light screws the DNA up. Sometimes the
cell can fix it, and sometimes it can't. But it probably wouldn't
throw off gel electrophoresis too much. (In forensics, the DNA is
subjected to a bunch of restriction enzymes which cut it at specific
sequences. Different DNA gets cut at different places, meaning that
the fragments have different lengths, meaning that they're of
substantially different weight. These are put on a gel and pulled
through it by an electrical field. If a fragment is heavier, it
doesn't go as far.)

DNA isn't a protein, though, and, strangely enough, isn't anywhere
near as dependent on secondary, tertiary, and quartenary structure as
proteins tend to be. Proteins have to be in a specific confirmation to
get the desired functionality. DNA just kind of needs to be
there. (It's more complicated than this, of course, because of things
that happen in cell division, but I could sit here and write a
book-sized posting which nobody, including me, wants.)

IIRC, DNA also tends to renature, either by itself or with the help of
other mechanisms. (cf. histones, etc.)

> If DNA is also destroyed would not a baseball eventually become
> invalidated just by sitting on a shelf? 

Yes, but not so much by UV light as by the occasional bacterium which
secretes something to break it, and by probably hundreds of other
processes. 

> As someone wears and handles clothing, washes it along with clothing
> worn by others wouldn't the DNA become damaged or contaminated? 

One would think.

> Sounds trendy but I'd bet it has problems.

Oh yeah.





From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:37:25 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:37:25 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

>On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>>      a greal deal of pain for some plain folks
>
>The folks who worked at the federal building were far from 'plain' folks.
>It isn't like they walked into a corner grocery.
>
>In addition, the plain fact is there is a considerable underground
>movement in this country today which is in direct and potentialy violent
>opposition to this countries current political infra-structure.
>
>Ask yourself this, how could a fugitive who is wanted for several bombings
>stay un-found for four years? He certainly isn't working by himself and
>there is considerable funding available clearly.

	The system is structured to catch criminals using the same 
"MO" and stupid people (often one in the same).
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:39:22 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:39:22 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

He of the CDR tag wrote:
>>  On the cynical side: maybe the feds shouldn't be putting child care
>>  facilities in potential terrorist targets.  (Really cynical: maybe
>>  it was intended as a human shield.)
>
>Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.

	It is quite likely that the people in position to make that 
decision did not have their own children in that facility.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:41:07 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:41:07 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: gun permits
In-Reply-To: <13074a92ca7e1c47f5eb07fc4705d216@remailer.ch>
References: <13074a92ca7e1c47f5eb07fc4705d216@remailer.ch>
Message-ID: 

>I'm somewhat amused by the irony of the Canadian government
>advertisements to register early for gun ownership permits
>interspersed between the dramatization of the Neurenberg trials.
>
>I wonder what proportion of the sheeple even noticed the irony.
>
>(The nazi's instituted gun ownership laws soon after they came to
>power).

	No, they didn't. They strengthened already Draconian laws, 
and passed a law making jews, gypsies, and others "non-human".

	Which is a lot worse.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From petro at bounty.org  Tue Sep 12 21:49:27 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:49:27 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 

(I'm cc'ing this to the cypherpunks list as well)

The easy solution to this is to put up a web page with information 
*about* the NAMBLA site, and instructions on how to request that the 
site be delivered anonymously--as a gzip, zip, or stuffit archive.

If one has access to a web server that allows cgi, this is fairly 
trivial to do with two way anonymity.

Another solution would be to create a newsgroup like 
alt.websites.censored.binary and post the archive there every two or 
three days, and just link that from the web site.

While I am not willing to take the heat for posting the NAMBLA site 
on my server (for fear of getting my connectivity yanked) I am 
willing to assist in working out a system where this information can 
be made available to those who wish it without having to deal with 
the public scrutiny.


>[A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. 
>Any offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume 
>they'll be duly forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in 
>question here would last on a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]
>
>---
>
>Hi Declan,
>
>I know you're aware of the case of Curley v. NAMBLA, which has very
>serious First Amendment implications. Jeffrey Curley was a 10-year-old
>who was murdered in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in October of 1997. The
>parents are alleging that the murderers were driven by NAMBLA literature
>in general and specifically by the contents of NAMBLA's web site. After
>the suit was filed in May of this year, the current NAMBLA web site was
>taken down.
>
>Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and false
>statements about what was on the web site. Because the media has no
>access to the site, no one can contradict him. A vicious media war is
>now being waged against the ACLU and other free-expression advocates for
>defending freedom of expression in this case. Few reporters seem even
>interested in finding out the contents of NAMBLA literature or the
>contents of the web site as of 10/97. But even if a fair-minded reporter
>did have this interest, he or she would be out of luck. Printed material
>from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will speak to the
>press only under conditions of strict anonymity because they fear for
>their lives. And the web site is not accessible.
>
>I am not a NAMBLA member, but I believe that the First Amendment applies
>to them. I have obtained the web files as of 10/97. I don't wish to put
>them up myself for a variety of reasons. First of all, my ISP might make
>me take them down. Also, I am involved in another case which I don't
>want tarred with the NAMBLA brush. There is no court injunction against
>the publication of the materials. But a site outside the US might be
>best in any case.
>
>Anyway, if you can help me find someone to take the files and put them
>up, please let me know.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu  Tue Sep 12 19:26:43 2000
From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:26:43 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:30:25PM -0500
References: <39BEBEF6.C0D99CED@lsil.com> 
Message-ID: <20000912222643.I120@ils.unc.edu>

On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:30:25PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:
> 
> >     a greal deal of pain for some plain folks
> 
> The folks who worked at the federal building were far from 'plain' folks.
> It isn't like they walked into a corner grocery.

On the sympathetic side: there was a child care facility there too, and
for the children, it *was* like they walked into a grocery or other
place they shouldn't have needed to fear.

On the cynical side: maybe the feds shouldn't be putting child care
facilities in potential terrorist targets.  (Really cynical: maybe
it was intended as a human shield.)

> In addition, the plain fact is there is a considerable underground
> movement in this country today which is in direct and potentialy violent
> opposition to this countries current political infra-structure.

I'm distrustful of the government enough to think that most reports
and statistics about such groups are greatly exaggerated.  After all,
what better basis do the feds et al. have for increased surveillance,
bigger budgets, and laws that limit privacy?

> Ask yourself this, how could a fugitive who is wanted for several bombings
> stay un-found for four years? He certainly isn't working by himself and
> there is considerable funding available clearly.

Yes, obvious funding and underground support.  But I also take this
as a good indication that in spite of how difficult it is to 
withdraw from society's radar entirely (e.g., get no mail, no
driver's license, no social security records, etc.), some people
can do it well enough so they can't be easily found.

Or maybe law enforcement is simply incompetent, and everyone
from Blockbuster Video to Home Depot can tell you everything you
might want to know about 90% of adults in the US.

  -- Greg
 




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 20:29:47 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:29:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: <20000912222643.I120@ils.unc.edu>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Greg Newby wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 09:30:25PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > 
> > On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Michael Motyka wrote:
> > 
> > >     a greal deal of pain for some plain folks
> > 
> > The folks who worked at the federal building were far from 'plain' folks.
> > It isn't like they walked into a corner grocery.
> 
> On the sympathetic side: there was a child care facility there too, and
> for the children, it *was* like they walked into a grocery or other
> place they shouldn't have needed to fear.

In no way to dismiss the horror, but...

A *federal* child care facility. What knuckle-head ok'ed putting a child
care facility in the same building as several federal LEA headquarters?
And what sort of parent would want to put their child there...?

Doh!

> On the cynical side: maybe the feds shouldn't be putting child care
> facilities in potential terrorist targets.  (Really cynical: maybe
> it was intended as a human shield.)

Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From George at Orwellian.Org  Tue Sep 12 20:19:58 2000
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:19:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
Message-ID: <200009130319.XAA03721@www3.aa.psiweb.com>

I wrote:
>Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs

A. Melon"  wrote:
#    Who cares ? Stop whining and use encryption.
#    
#    Dont waste the bandwidth complaining about each and every sheeple
#    xploiting event. Being outraged doesnt achieve shit.

Hey numbnuts:

   o  the email isn't local to my system
   o  I don't complain about every little thing, you do
   o  being outraged is a good first step towards achieving shit
   o  you wasted bandwidth

You're just another luser.

You're on the right list.

IBM nutter Choate is here.




From declan at well.com  Tue Sep 12 20:34:30 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:34:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>

[A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. Any 
offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume they'll be duly 
forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in question here would last on 
a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]

---

Hi Declan,

I know you're aware of the case of Curley v. NAMBLA, which has very
serious First Amendment implications. Jeffrey Curley was a 10-year-old
who was murdered in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in October of 1997. The
parents are alleging that the murderers were driven by NAMBLA literature
in general and specifically by the contents of NAMBLA's web site. After
the suit was filed in May of this year, the current NAMBLA web site was
taken down.

Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and false
statements about what was on the web site. Because the media has no
access to the site, no one can contradict him. A vicious media war is
now being waged against the ACLU and other free-expression advocates for
defending freedom of expression in this case. Few reporters seem even
interested in finding out the contents of NAMBLA literature or the
contents of the web site as of 10/97. But even if a fair-minded reporter
did have this interest, he or she would be out of luck. Printed material
from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will speak to the
press only under conditions of strict anonymity because they fear for
their lives. And the web site is not accessible.

I am not a NAMBLA member, but I believe that the First Amendment applies
to them. I have obtained the web files as of 10/97. I don't wish to put
them up myself for a variety of reasons. First of all, my ISP might make
me take them down. Also, I am involved in another case which I don't
want tarred with the NAMBLA brush. There is no court injunction against
the publication of the materials. But a site outside the US might be
best in any case.

Anyway, if you can help me find someone to take the files and put them
up, please let me know.




From 72774 at COMPUSERVE.COM  Tue Sep 12 20:39:59 2000
From: 72774 at COMPUSERVE.COM (B-Square Publishing Co.)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:39:59 -0400
Subject: CDR: Win $2,000.00
Message-ID: <200009130334.XAA12883@sphmraaa.compuserve.com>

Win $2,000.00 in spending money and a four day three night trip to Las 
Vegas for two. Read all four W.G. Goldstein's novels and solve the mystery 
of Who is the real W.G.Goldstein.   Books are available at major boodstores 
or online at:
BN.com
Amazon.com
booksamillion.com
borders.com
  The Goldstein Novel's are:
Class Reunion - ISBN  0-9672756-4-4
The Roommate - ISBN 0-9672756-5-2
Classmate - ISBN 0-9672756-6-0
Searching For a Stare - ISBN 0-9672756-7-9




This message is sent in compliance with the new email bill:
Section 301, para (a) (2) (C) of S. 1618.
sender Info: P.O. Box 44941, Wash. DC 20026.
If you wish to be removed from future mailings, please reply with the subject 
"Remove" and you will be automatically blocked from future mailings.




From edouvarjo at webtv.net  Tue Sep 12 20:50:40 2000
From: edouvarjo at webtv.net (eileen douvarjo)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:50:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: KERSHOFF
Message-ID: <25250-39BEF990-14168@storefull-105.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Searching SS# for John/Jacob Kershoff, 
lived 1940-1950's onStaten Island, N.Y.
Been told his name was JAY, could be nickname. Died before 1995,  he was
married to Margaret Whitehead and had two children.
He was an officer in the US Navy during WW11. Thank you.
Eileen Douvarjo




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 22:01:10 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:01:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, petro wrote:

> >Ask yourself this, how could a fugitive who is wanted for several bombings
> >stay un-found for four years? He certainly isn't working by himself and
> >there is considerable funding available clearly.
> 
> 	The system is structured to catch criminals using the same 
> "MO" and stupid people (often one in the same).

If it was only that simple. There is no indication the guy was a rocket
scientist. He is a bomber who was bombing for a 'cause'. We are not
talking a simple bank robber using some dynamite expeditiously. We're
talking cold, calculating, confident.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From ravage at einstein.ssz.com  Tue Sep 12 22:05:34 2000
From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:05:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, petro wrote:

> He of the CDR tag wrote:
> >>  On the cynical side: maybe the feds shouldn't be putting child care
> >>  facilities in potential terrorist targets.  (Really cynical: maybe
> >>  it was intended as a human shield.)
> >
> >Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.
> 
> 	It is quite likely that the people in position to make that 
> decision did not have their own children in that facility.

???

Each parent was in a position to make that decision. It was the regional
headquarters for several agencies, it was by definition the place where
such decisions are made. I do not know if the particular individuals who
ok'ed the decision to allow it in the building actualy had or have kids.
However,  to limit the scope of this to only the location decision is an 
unreasonably narrow definition of responsibility in what happened.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Tue Sep 12 21:06:52 2000
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:06:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: gun permits
Message-ID: 

On 13 Sep 2000, Anonymous wrote:

> I'm somewhat amused by the irony of the Canadian government
> advertisements to register early for gun ownership permits
> interspersed between the dramatization of the Neurenberg trials.

What advertisements??




From jeff at scrollbar.com  Tue Sep 12 21:26:20 2000
From: jeff at scrollbar.com (Jeff Kandt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:26:20 -0400
Subject: Tipster voluntary payment protocol
Message-ID: 

I've just posted a new and improved description of my voluntary
payment protocol:

Tipster technical overview
http://tipster.weblogs.com/stories/storyReader$180

Comments are welcome.

Also, check out the front page which, if I do say so myself, is
becoming a pretty good chronicle of music business greed and the
search for better ways...

http://tipster.weblogs.com/

-Jeff
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Jeff Kandt         |  Voluntary Payments: A Napster-friendly  business  |
|jeff at scrollbar.com |  model for musicians. http://tipster.weblogs.com   |
|[PGP Pub key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6CE51904 |
|              or send a message with the subject "send pgp key"]        |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request at reservoir.com" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From declan at well.com  Tue Sep 12 21:31:29 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:31:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
In-Reply-To: <200009122144.RAA03630@www2.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:44:32PM -0400
References: <200009122144.RAA03630@www2.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <20000913003129.A23851@cluebot.com>

Interesting. I'm behind on stuff, having come back recently from two
weeks at Burning Man and in SF, and organizing my patent expiration
party. I'm only skimming threads right now. --Declan


On Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 05:44:32PM -0400, George at orwellian.org wrote:
> Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs
> in received email to proxy through their server, meaning
> they had logs of all URLs you visited when clicking on
> hyperlinks while reading your personal email.
> 
> That this violates their own privacy policy.
> 
> For some reason Declan failed to report it. ;-)
> Analog film chemicals must be affecting his judgement.
> 
> New note: if you bookmark the URL in the personal email someone
> sent you, it bookmarks it at the USA.net address.
> 
> ----
> 
> Here is the resulting URL in the new window USA.net opens
> when you click on an URL in your email:
> 
> http://www.netaddress.com/tpl/Info/Popup?hidden___url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F
> 
> I just tried scooping it and using it directly, trying amazon here.
> 
> It worked.
> 
> Anyone have direct access to their own server logs?
> What cookies/referrals/misc is logged on the receiving system?
> 
> Continue clicking, and it's still via USA.net.
> 
> It looks like a free "anonymizer" to me.
> 




From webmaster at troppolotto.com  Tue Sep 12 17:51:50 2000
From: webmaster at troppolotto.com (TroppoLotto)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 00:51:50 -0000
Subject: CDR: Personal Note from TroppoLotto's CEO
Message-ID: <20000913005150.3999.qmail@qm-3.troppolotto.com>

Dear Fgjfgj,

My name is Brian Nelson and I am the CEO of Trancos, the company that
created http://www.troppolotto.com.  I'd like to say thanks to all of you
for playing TroppoLotto!

When I created TroppoLotto, I wanted to make a unique place on the Internet
where people could visit, have fun, play exciting contests and win money, always
for FREE... a place to forget day-to-day little problems... a place that's like
taking a trip to the tropics... a place to ENJOY YOURSELF!  We've now given
out thousands of prizes, and YOU have made TroppoLotto one of the most
popular sites on the Internet.

Everyday, I receive many emails from TroppoLotto players saying how much fun
it is & how grateful they are for winning money for FREE.  I am sincerely
touched, and I hope you continue to play. By being a member of TroppoLotto,
you are making this site a success.

I'm writing you to ask you to participate in our new TroppoLotto
Tell-A-Friend program.  We have partnered with IHomeDecor.com to offer you a
chance to win fantastic prize packages.  You get one chance in the weekly
drawing for each friend you refer.  This special promotion will be running
for 4 weeks. To refer your friends now, click here:
http://www.troppolotto.com/friend.php3

Here are this week's prizes:
- Wire Hurricane Candle Holder
- Hammered Brass Taper Holder
- Golf collection package
- Traditional Holiday package
- Asian Accents package I
- Asian Accents package II

For more details on the prizes, click here:
http://www.troppolotto.com/decor_giveaway_list.php3

********************************************************
Spruce up your space with sensational fall decorating ideas from
iHomeDecor.com!  Our new Modern and Holiday Collections include frames,
candles, vases, and exciting seasonal decorations for every style dicor.
For a look at our fabulous new products visit us at:
http://www.ihomedecor.com.
iHomeDecor.com is the premier online store for style and savings.
At these prices, everyone's a decorator!
********************************************************

Thank you so much for supporting our sponsors, and thank you for supporting
TroppoLotto.  I am always open to suggestions on how to make TroppoLotto a
better experience for you, and I welcome your suggestions.

Thanks again, and please tell a friend!
http://www.troppolotto.com/friend.php3

Sincerely,

Brian Nelson
CEO
P.S.
As always, your privacy is our utmost concern. Please visit our
http://www.troppolotto.com/privacy.php3 if you have any questions.
@ Copyright 2000 Trancos, Inc. / All Rights Reserved.




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep 13 00:57:57 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:57:57 -0700
Subject: CDR: RECYCLED CPUNKS MESSAGES APPEARING FROM INFONEX
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913005757.00904d80@idiom.com>

I'm starting to see a number of old cypherpunks messages
reappearing from  sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [216.34.245.2]).
I'm not sure if they're going to everybody on cypherpunks (unlikely),
or everybody who uses the cyberpass.net majordomo,
or if it's just infonex clearing out undelivered stuff to my ISP.

Either way, if you start seeing topics that we covered a week or two ago,
maybe it's because of mail problems, so check the date.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From Wilfred at Cryogen.com  Tue Sep 12 22:29:04 2000
From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:29:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: [PGP:] Are you all this Blind? [Resent.]
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000913012904.00953848@mail.internet-95.com>

-=|=-

CP: This message was distributed from Algebra.com as NULL content back on
Sunday, 27 August, 2000. It, and postant null and erred content from
various nodes triggered questions over the last week, numerous admins have
checked on the issue of problems, apparently. [There have been no changes
to this text since the original post, simply re-sent now. -WLG]

-=|=-

[PGP]: Are you all this blind?

Regarding the "New Realization" of the PGP "fixes"...

This short denouncement of performance is directed to all those of
semi-competence and awareness and understanding of the reality. 
For the rest of "us" sheep, Let "us" learn from 'their' mistakes.

I do not know who in their right mind --who actually comprehends the basis
of _this_ intellectual environment and the surrounding realities in which
we operate-- could possibly not comprehend the legitimacy and security
issues surrounding the PGP projects after the fixes were introduced.

As we *ALL* _SHOULD_ know, PGP releases prior the original release of 2.6.2
and (there may be a legitimate interim version, however its life span was
limited) prior the introduction of external influences and the release of
the 5.*+ series and the replaced 2.6.2 distributions, are the only
semi-secure and legitimate releases of the PGP algos/code.

You should ALSO know that all versions 5.*+ are severely defective, and
altered versions of 2.* replaced legitimate public distributions of 2.*
during the same time frame.

I will refuse to accept the apparent "realization" that is currently
circulating the public media.

Are those of you on this list, and involved in any and all related fields,
claiming to be so blind sighted that *YOU* did not notice the variance in
code, that *YOU* did not "bother" to examine or check the totally faulted
releases of anything from these sources after the fixes? 

Are *YOU* going to tell us that you "didn't notice" the variance in code
structures in the server-distributed versions of 2.6.2 releases immediately
after the fixing? Nor any of the more obvious transitions?

Granted, although for obvious reasons, no one immediately put up alarms due
to their full comprehension of the situations the PGP project was faced
with during this time period... BUT... Why is it only NOW, _years_later_,
that it is such a revelation? 

Why is it only now that there is a release of a statement of
common-knowledge reality? Or is the fact that no one with any comprehension
or ability to recognise the issues bothered to elucidate the reality to the
rest of the world?

This is the epitome of failure, on one of many fronts.

I am thoroughly disappointed that the current public understanding of the
PGP code and algos has thought it to be stable and legitimate encryption,
especially when there are thousands+ of individuals capable of simple
review that *SHOULD* have looked at the code upon release and prior their
use. How many did? Most. And?

Now, how many PGP sigs in this list (and others) are explicitly tag lined
with a statement resembling "2.6.2 _ORIGINAL_ PGP" or similar?

I will continue to refuse to believe that we have gone (for how many
years?) failing to exhibit the faulted PGP versions circulating publicly
and no one publicly questioning it?

Granted, the sheep are supposed to be dumb for a reason, but, in this
regard, has anyone ever bothered to teach them a more complex "baah!" ?

Or, are we to assume that our friendly spooks have failed so miserably that
only now have they created a computational system capable of analysing the
real PGP systems? This would be a statement of pathetic failure on their
behalf... I would expect the damned spooks to at least know how to run
simple (untraditional) numerics on data sets and not have any problem with
any common-use encryption to date... How can they fail so miserably? [This
assumes the common "let the sheep 'baah' after we have countered it"
mentality...]

Generally, I feel this is a pathetic failure on the part of all competent
individuals who most certainly analysed and reviewed the code and noticed
the blatant flaws many years ago (yes, they are blatantly obvious), yet
*CHOOSE* to *NEVER* elucidate this reality to the common environment?

-

Let us take this awareness and insight ("Learn from your Mistakes and
Failures") so that we do not consistently allow this type of global
stupidity to propagate for _SO_LONG_ without cross-checks... Please.

I bid you good wishes on your quest for intellectual freedom, yet also
distribute cynical remarks to all of "us" who FAILED to audience the simple
reality and stir the crowds years ago in this excessively basic issue...
What about all the others?

-Wilfred L. Guerin
Wilfred at Cryogen.com



[You really expect a PGP sig here?]



-=|=-


---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: John Young 
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:25:20 -0400

>
>Cryptome offers the ADK bug-fix PGP Freeware 6.5.8:







From twoday at freeatlast.com  Wed Sep 13 01:45:08 2000
From: twoday at freeatlast.com (twoday at freeatlast.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:45:08
Subject: CDR: AD:Family Reunion T Shirts & More
Message-ID: <453.784579.828674@freeatlast.com>

Message sent by:  Kuppler Graphics, 32 West Main Street, Maple 
Shade, New Jersey, 08052,
1-800-810-4330.   This list will NOT be sold.  All addresses 
are automatically added to our remove list.

Hello.  My name is Bill from Kuppler Graphics.  We do 
screenprinting on T Shirts, Sweatshirts,
Jackets, Hats, Tote Bags and more!

Do you or someone you know have a Family Reunion coming up?  
Kuppler Graphics would like to
provide you with some great looking T Shirts for your Reunion.

Kuppler Graphics can also provide you with custom T's and 
promotional items such as imprinted
magnets, keychains, pens, mugs, hats, etc. for your business or 
any fundraising activity
(church, school, business etc.) We also can provide you with 
quality embroidery. 

We are a family owned company with over 15 years of experience.  

All work is done at this location.  No middle man.  Our prices 
are great!

Please call toll free 1-800-810-4330 if the reply to email is 
down for a quote or to
discuss your screenprinting needs 

Bill
Kuppler Graphics
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From bear at sonic.net  Tue Sep 12 23:08:41 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 02:08:41 -0400
Subject: CDR: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
In-Reply-To: <9a12e15191b5498d0c6a96bd9875054c@remailer.privacy.at>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 anonymous at openpgp.net wrote:

>Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>> safer, cleaner place but calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the
>> mark. 0 points for that one. 
>
>Why?

Interesting question, actually...  The difference between a 
"random crazy" and a "freedom fighter" can be awfully dang 
thin.  I think that in order to qualify as a "freedom fighter" 
there has to be a significant faction who support your actions 
and a nonzero chance of bringing about real change.

Mcveigh, as he is, is just a random crazy.  But if, say, one 
out of ten American Citizens or so had looked up from the news 
story and gone, "It's about time somebody started fighting those 
bastards" then he'd have a constituency to whom he could be a 
freedom fighter.  And also a nonzero chance of causing real 
change.  

Not a bit of difference in his own actions -- but the context 
in which his actions took place -- and his decision to make 
exactly those actions in that context -- make him a random nut 
rather than a freedom fighter.  

It's just my opinion.  But that's how I see it.  Freedom 
fighters do what they do because they have constituency 
whose interests they are fighting for and a realistic 
belief that the fight will change something.  I think these 
were lacking in Mcveigh's case. 

				Bear








From bear at sonic.net  Tue Sep 12 23:18:19 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 02:18:19 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: VISA to smartcard the US
In-Reply-To: <25091dc6fdad8c13970116f045daa308@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 



Hmmm.  These devices could be useful, even without using 
them as credit cards.  I wonder if you could buy a batch 
of them from the manufacturer with custom software installed? 

It would sure be nice if I could make a physical key token 
that would render my system completely useless if the key 
were, say, in my wallet at work, and the computer found its 
way to, say, the hands of someone carrying out an illegal 
search and seizure.  

likewise it would be nice to store PGP keys on, etc -- bits 
of data that you want to maintain complete physical control 
of at all times. 

"Oppression is sometimes best fought with the tools that 
the oppressors have built for their own use." 

I want a PGPdisk you can boot from.

				Bear


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, A. Melon wrote:

>Sep 12, 2000 - 07:27 PM 
>
>            Visa USA to Launch Smart Card in
>            the U.S. 
>            The Associated Press
>
>            NEW YORK (AP) - After success with its smart card in
>            Europe and Japan, Visa is aiming squarely at the U.S.
>            market with an upgraded version that contains more
>            memory. 
>
>            Over the next couple of weeks, Visa USA, the
>            companys U.S. division, will be launching smart cards
>            - microprocessors embedded in plastic -that will offer
>            prepackaged services to be determined by its issuers. 
>
>            Customers will be able to download information from
>            their computers via special card readers. Over the next
>            year or so, they will be able to store airline tickets, for
>            example, and eventually use the cards as keys to their
>            cars and homes. 
>
>            The card, which has 32 kilobytes of memory, is
>            different from Visas original version, which has mainly
>            served as a "monetary value card," said Al Banisch,
>            senior vice president of consumer credit products. 
>
>            The new card will be available free to Visas 350
>            million cardholders. 
>
>





From MAILER-DAEMON at venon.com  Wed Sep 13 00:00:56 2000
From: MAILER-DAEMON at venon.com (Mail Delivery System)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:00:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender
Message-ID: <20000913070056.27D55D144F@ns1.venon.com>

This is the Postfix program at host ns1.venon.com.

I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned
below could not be delivered to one or more destinations.

For further assistance, please contact 

If you do so, please include this problem report. You can
delete your own text from the message returned below.

			The Postfix program

<72774 at venon.com>: unknown user: "72774"

-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: unknown sender
Subject: no subject
Date: no date
Size: 38
URL: 

From cypherpunks at toad.com  Wed Sep 13 00:01:08 2000
From: cypherpunks at toad.com (Cypherpunks)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:01:08 -0400
Subject: Remove
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913030054.00b124e0@mail.megapathdsl.net>



--E1B38D144E.968828456/ns1.venon.com--




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 00:11:34 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:11:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net>

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> [A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. Any
> offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume they'll be duly
> forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in question here would last on
> a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]
> 
> ---
> 
> Hi Declan,
> 
> I know you're aware of the case of Curley v. NAMBLA, which has very
> serious First Amendment implications. Jeffrey Curley was a 10-year-old
> who was murdered in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in October of 1997. The
> parents are alleging that the murderers were driven by NAMBLA literature
> in general and specifically by the contents of NAMBLA's web site. After
> the suit was filed in May of this year, the current NAMBLA web site was
> taken down.
> 
> Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and false
> statements about what was on the web site. Because the media has no
> access to the site, no one can contradict him. A vicious media war is
> now being waged against the ACLU and other free-expression advocates for
> defending freedom of expression in this case. Few reporters seem even
> interested in finding out the contents of NAMBLA literature or the
> contents of the web site as of 10/97. But even if a fair-minded reporter
> did have this interest, he or she would be out of luck. Printed material
> from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will speak to the
> press only under conditions of strict anonymity because they fear for
> their lives. And the web site is not accessible.
> 
> I am not a NAMBLA member, but I believe that the First Amendment applies
> to them. I have obtained the web files as of 10/97. I don't wish to put
> them up myself for a variety of reasons. First of all, my ISP might make
> me take them down. Also, I am involved in another case which I don't
> want tarred with the NAMBLA brush. There is no court injunction against
> the publication of the materials. But a site outside the US might be
> best in any case.
> 
> Anyway, if you can help me find someone to take the files and put them
> up, please let me know.

	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really 
are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you 
would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to 
preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their 
son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from 
happening again.
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From 000ymao at china.com  Wed Sep 13 03:17:43 2000
From: 000ymao at china.com (000ymao at china.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:17:43
Subject: CDR: Accepting Credit Cards??.??
Message-ID: <50.652293.423277@china.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3521 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 00:30:13 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:30:13 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 2:08 AM -0400 9/13/00, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>Interesting question, actually...  The difference between a
>"random crazy" and a "freedom fighter" can be awfully dang
>thin.  I think that in order to qualify as a "freedom fighter"
>there has to be a significant faction who support your actions
>and a nonzero chance of bringing about real change.

This is not a terribly interesting line of analysis.

I use "freedom fighter" in nearly all contexts in which the dominant 
paradigm uses the word "terrorist."

Consider some of the many thousands of examples:

* Those who blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 
1947-8...terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

* Those who blew up the Air Cubana airliner off the coast of Florida 
in the late 60s... terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

* Those who blew up an aspirin factory in Khartoum... terrorists, 
freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

* Those who blew up police stations in Northern Ireland... 
terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

* Those who blew up British soldiers and their families garrisoned in 
New England in 1776... terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random 
crazies"?

* Those who laid mines in a harbor in Nicaragua so that commercial 
ships would be blown up, even though no state of war existed... 
terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"? (BTW, done by the 
same nice folks who taught the secret police how to torture and kill, 
how to assassinate political opponents, and how to rig elections.)

* Those who blew up the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983... 
terrorists, freedom fighters, or "random crazies"?

I think it's obvious that the "random crazy" analysis is flawed. Even 
the Unabomber was political. Perhaps the "Mad Bomber" of several 
decades ago was a "random crazy," but the actions of Baader-Meinhof, 
Red Army Faction, Cuban exile community, IRA, CIA, and so on, are 
clearly political. If McVeigh's actions were not political, nothing 
is. Whether one agrees or disagrees, his actions were politically 
motivated (and with various links I won't get into here with Elohim 
City, the German government, and dissident factions in the USG).

I thought it unexceptionable that I would use the standard shorthand 
of referring to a "terrorist" by a more descriptive name.

If they're our bombers, they're freedom fighters. If they're the 
other guy's bombers, they're terrorists.

The Hezbollah guerillas who offed a couple of hundred of U.S. Marines 
in Beirut in 1983 were dubbed "terrorists" by U.S. sources and U.S. 
reporters. Absurd. By any even slightly objective analysis, this was 
a military action. Yeah, some "innocents" died...some chambermaids, 
the children of the housekeepers and front desk clerks who were 
playing while their parents worked, gardeners and handymen, the usual 
bunch of innocents.

Just as innocents died when the U.S. firebombed Dresden and Tokyo. 
Just as when the U.S., in a battle which was not part of a declared 
war, routinely napalmed villages in Viet Nam and killed obvious 
nonparticipants (children, for example).

War is hell. The Federal Building in OKC was, to McVeigh and to many 
others, a military target.

Get used to it. Strong, untraceable crypto means the capability for 
coordinating far more impressive attacks.

And learn to deconstruct the underlying meaning of words like "terrorist."

If some "sand niggers" in Palestine fight back to keep Polish and 
French Jews from stealing their land, they're "terrorists." If 
Menachem Begin and the Stern Gang and similar gangs blow up a hotel 
filled with British soldiers trying to stop this theft from 
occurring, these Jews are hailed as noble freedom fighters.

Understand and internalize the reality that "terrorists," "freedom 
fighters," and "random crazies" are just loaded terms, set by masters 
of spin.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From nobody at remailer.ch  Tue Sep 12 20:31:24 2000
From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 03:31:24 -0000
Subject: CDR: gun permits
Message-ID: <13074a92ca7e1c47f5eb07fc4705d216@remailer.ch>


I'm somewhat amused by the irony of the Canadian government
advertisements to register early for gun ownership permits
interspersed between the dramatization of the Neurenberg trials.

I wonder what proportion of the sheeple even noticed the irony.

(The nazi's instituted gun ownership laws soon after they came to
power).

GunMonger




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep 13 01:09:55 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:09:55 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: MPAA thinks linking is illegal
References: <20000830160846.D7597@ils.unc.edu> <39AD6FE5.12EA2AA7@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <39BF3596.37D74B76@ricardo.de>

Steven Furlong wrote:
> > Now, the MPAA is trying to force me to remove a LINK to the code from
> > my class page.  This is enough to make me want to throw up.
> 
> Can you simply remove the  tag, but leave the address in as text?
> The reader would still be able to see where to go, but it wouldn't be a
> _link_.

this is what 2600 is trying.
most likely, the MPAA will get THAT disallowed. my guess is that 2600
will next *spell out* the links "double-u, double-u, double-u, dot, ..."

in a year or so, just thinking about decss will be illegal.





From cab8 at censored.org  Wed Sep 13 01:17:04 2000
From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol Braddock)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:17:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am saddened to learn of a child murder.
I am saddened to learn that NAMBLA lost their website.
I am saddened to learn that Jodi Hoffman still can't read very well.

Carol Anne Cypherpunk

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> I am not a NAMBLA member, but I believe that the First Amendment applies
> to them. > 

	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really 
are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you 
would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to 
preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their 
son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from 
happening again.
- -- 


Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.0
Comment: The ArtCall is over 65% complete.

iQA/AwUBOb83EKC5l40tbJY2EQLp8QCg0/LPll9URa3+Rs+KZJSxCJCJS2AAoN1D
oaNv96nHKRnvYJP+5NnQi24c
=xdCu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From Alainthuot at aol.com  Wed Sep 13 03:25:15 2000
From: Alainthuot at aol.com (Alainthuot at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 06:25:15 EDT
Subject: CDR: Nostradamus' prophecy for 1999 : finally the truth !
Message-ID: 



Hello !

Your site talk about Nostradamus. 

I'm very sorry but in quatrain X 72, Nostradamus didn't talk about Mongols, 
Cassini, comets, wars, eclipses, JFK, the Antichrist, or Osiris !

If you want to learn the truth about Nostradamus' prophecy for 1999, there's 
a good address :
http://members.aol.com/AlainThuot/e_nostra2.htm

Nostradamus' prophecy came completely true : the final explanation of the 
quatrain word by word !

Now, the truth is at last available in English ! + en français  + em português

(I can read an email in english but I can't reply in english because I don't 
speak english. It's not me who made the translation in english on my site. I 
can reply in french if you want.)

//_________________________________
On my site, you can read too :

1998 : a World Cup shrouded in mystery
 > Learn all about the mysterious coincidences which lined the way of the 
French during the 1998 World Cup (soccer)

The storm of December 26, 1999
 > Why didn't the media warn the French ?

//_________________________________


Thanks,

Alain Thuot

*************************************************
AlainThuot at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/AlainThuot/accueil.htm
*************************************************




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Sep 13 06:47:02 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 06:47:02 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>

At 03:11 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
>throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
>well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really 
>are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you 
>would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to 
>preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their 
>son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from 
>happening again.

Ah, the fascists rise to the bait!

Freedom of speech is a moral absolute. The words of NAMBLA are as
important, and about as morally sound, as the words of Jodi Hoffman. And,
IMO, about as likely to cause a murder.




From sales at edgar-online.com  Wed Sep 13 07:18:32 2000
From: sales at edgar-online.com (EDGAR Online Customer Support)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:18:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: EDGAR Online - Confirmation Email
Message-ID: <200009131418.HAA11417@toad.com>


Thank you for registering as a Visitor to EDGAR Online
(http://www.edgar-online.com), your best source on the Web for SEC information on the Internet and voted a Barrons Top 20 Investment Web Site. Your account is active and you can begin using it immediately.

If you need your User Name and Password, go to http://www.edgar-online.com/username.asp

As a Visitor, you have access to a subset of the tools EDGAR Online offers, including:

- Todays Filings, available to Visitors one (1) full business day after filing date;
- EDGAR Online People, to search Proxy Filings (DEF14A) by individual name;
- Full Search, to access specific filings using any combination of 10 criteria; 
- EDGAR Online Glimpse, an extract of the Management Discussion and Analysis for a complete overview of the companys operating results;
- Financial Data Schedule (FDS) that downloads a companys balance sheet and vital financial statistics. directly into a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet for easy analysis;
- Plain Text Format Output suitable for on-screen reading (limited printing options);
- Unlimited Customer Support; and
- Complete EDGAR database to 1994

Consider upgrading to a subscription of EDGAR Online Premium at http://www.edgar-online.com/regopt.asp 
for more advanced management tools that quickly target the company intelligence in every SEC document. Starting at only $9.95 a month, subscribers have access to:

- EDGAR Online Personal, your customized portfolio of companies, industries, insider transactions, and other SEC data you want to track, plus automatic email alerts about new filings.

- EDGAR Online People, to search all SEC filings by individual name to find out about salaries, stock options, insider stock buying and selling, and corporate board memberships;

- Insider Trading filings (144 forms) whenever insiders buy or sell stock;

- Real Time access to Todays SEC filings before theyre available from the SEC; and

- Enhanced formatting allowing for documents to be downloaded into any Word Processing format, for standard page breaks and printability.

To find out more about subscribing, go to http://www.edgar-online.com/regopt.asp.

If you have any questions, live Customer Support representatives are available Monday through Friday, 9 am to 7:30 pm to answer your questions via email at support at edgar-online.com, or toll free at 1-800-416-6651.

Thank you again for registering!

/--------ADVERTISEMENT-----------------------\
Purchase Business/Credit Reports from Dun & Bradstreet on
over 11 million U.S. businesses. Click on the "Resources"
linkwhen you look up SEC filings for any public company,
or search by company name and state at
http://www.edgar.telebase.com/
\--------------------------------------------/



        























From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Wed Sep 13 04:35:01 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:35:01 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: SF Internet self-defense course
In-Reply-To: <39AB9A6A.49DA34B2@ricardo.de>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000831005246.007ce5c0@idiom.com>

At 01:11 PM 8/29/00 +0200, Tom Vogt wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> >are you required to provide your private keys to an enemy (e.g. someone
>> >who is sueing you) ?
..
>> I expect 95% or more of all encryption is done at the transport
>> layer, i.e., for transmission. Most peoplee, I surmise, keep their
>> original compositions in unencrypted form and their decrypted
>> transmissions in that form, too. The perceived threat model is for
>> interception by ISPs, snoops, and government agencies.
>
>that's where good software comes in. mutt, for example, stores the
>received encrypted mail - well, encrypted. decryption is done when you
>view the mail. also, encrypted mails you send are encrypted twice - once
>with the receipient's key and sent to him, once with your key for your
>"outbox" archive.

The Eudora PGP Plug-In deliberately decrypts received mail 
and stores it unencrypted, specifically to discourage the
"You must escrow your private keys so we can decode your plaintext"
attacks that the FBI/NSA/WhiteHouse anti-crypto mafia were pushing
a couple of years ago.  That's a different issue from storing your
mailbox in a PGPdisk volume or some other encrypted filesystem
or having the mail decryptor re-encrypt for storage with a different key
(which wouldn't be that hard, since you could use a different
public key to encrypt the session key and leave the symmetric-encrypted 
part of the message alone.)
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From nobody at remailer.privacy.at  Tue Sep 12 22:53:12 2000
From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:53:12 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re:  KERSHOFF
Message-ID: 

> Searching SS# for John/Jacob Kershoff, 
> lived 1940-1950's onStaten Island, N.Y.
> Been told his name was JAY, could be nickname. Died before 1995,  he was
> married to Margaret Whitehead and had two children.
> He was an officer in the US Navy during WW11. Thank you.
> Eileen Douvarjo

Try:
http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/ssdi/main.htm




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Sep 13 08:09:28 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:09:28 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913080928.03958e70@mrlizard.com>

At 10:56 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>
>	Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and 
>murderers.  

Nope, only to the support of those who advocate it, just like I support
your right to free speech. I daresay you're much more dangerous to children
than any NAMBLA member could ever be. All they want is a childs body. You
want to destroy their soul.

>Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First 
>Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel 
>differently.

I support the right of people to post recipes for stir-fried cat on their
web pages. It's disgusting, but it's their right. If they tried ACTING on
such impulses, of course, they'd discover why we have a SECOND amendment...




From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 13 05:20:42 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:20:42 -0400
Subject: Tipster voluntary payment protocol
Message-ID: 


--- begin forwarded text



From rah at shipwright.com  Wed Sep 13 05:27:21 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:27:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: "Imminent Lawless Action" (was Re: GigaLaw.com Daily News,
 September 13, 2000)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 4:44 AM -0700 on 9/13/00, GigaLaw.com wrote:


> [FREE SPEECH]
> Antiabortion Activists Seek Reversal of Award Against Site
>      Antiabortion activists are asking a federal appeals court to overturn
> a $109 million verdict by a jury that decided a Web site and posters
> listing the names of abortion doctors and clinics were threats that went
> beyond free speech. The case is widely seen as a test of a Supreme Court
> ruling that defined a threat as explicit language likely to cause
> "imminent lawless action" -- and a measure of how far antiabortion
> activists can go in harassing doctors and clinics.
>      Read the article: The Wall Street Journal @
> http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB968782868719953428.htm

-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From colin at xemacs.org  Wed Sep 13 05:57:54 2000
From: colin at xemacs.org (Colin Rafferty)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 08:57:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: Jodi Hoffman's message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:11:34 -0400"
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

Jodi Hoffman writes:
> Declan McCullagh forwards:

>> Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and
>> false statements about what was on the web site. Because the media
>> has no access to the site, no one can contradict him. ... Printed
>> material from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will
>> speak to the press only under conditions of strict anonymity
>> because they fear for their lives. And the web site is not
>> accessible.

> 	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
> throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
> well as their attorney.  

I think that would be an excellent idea.  The best thing for this case
would be to see what was actually on the web site.

Of course, I would suggest showing it to everyone, and not just the
Curley family lawyers.  Because of NAMBLA had nothing to do with the
murder, I'm sure you wouldn't want to see them falsely found liable.

> I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important
> you think it is to preserve the information put out by the people
> who helped cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing
> something to help prevent it from happening again.

So your printouts of the NAMBLA web site show where they encourage
people to rape and/or murder children?

Do you have any quotes?

> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy

Always a good quote.  So what is the truth about what was on the
NAMBLA web site?  Yell it from the rooftops.

-- 
Colin




From vlado at yaxoo.com  Tue Sep 12 23:10:52 2000
From: vlado at yaxoo.com (Vladimir Banishky)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:10:52 +0300
Subject: CDR: www.yaxoo.com
Message-ID: 

 Win up to $10,000 - just visit http://www.yaxoo.com




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 09:42:02 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:42:02 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: 

At 11:27 AM -0400 9/13/00, Jay Holovacs wrote:
>You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
>same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
>advocate violence to children)
>
>Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
>protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
>murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
>

Actually, the tide of civil lawsuits against all sorts of 
organizations is rising. Aryan Nations was just ordered to pay some 
multimillion dollar fee because some woman was harassed or attacked 
or had her feelings hurt--not sure which--by some people she claimed 
were connected to or influenced by AN.

I watched noted spinster Alan Dershowitz expostulating that lawsuits 
to bankrupt Aryan Nation are _good_, becuase AN espouses hate, but 
that lawsuits against NAMBLA are _bad_, for some reason I didn't 
stick around long enough to hear.

This issue of lawsuits about speech is a terribly important one. It 
tends to get lost in the debate when people say "But the _government_ 
is not suppressing speech!"

Actually, it _is_. By court decisions, by even letting such lawsuits 
go forward, it is supporting such suppressions of speech. "SLAPP" 
suits are another example.

("Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation," as when a lumber 
company slaps a civil lawsuit on a critic of their logging 
operations. Even the _filing_ of a lawsuit essentially forces the 
target to hire his own $400 an hour lawyers. (Yeah, I know what 
Duncan would say: "Throw the subpoena away. Make yourself 
judgement-proof. Ignore the matter." Well, nice theory, hard in 
practice for anyone with real assets.)_

We as a culture have swung far away from "sticks and stones may break 
my bones but names will never hurt me" toward a culture of lawsuits. 
And the lawyer lobby supports and embraces this culture, getting laws 
passed making it easier every day to suppress speech.

Crypto helps in various ways, of course. Both Aryan Nations and 
NAMBLA will be helped, along with Friends of the Earth and Pacific 
Lumber.

Censorious bitches like Jodi Hoffman will splutter.

--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From declan at well.com  Wed Sep 13 06:59:23 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:59:23 -0400
Subject: CDR: Bioterror in DC: Banning production of such weapons
Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000913095901.023d7f00@mail.well.com>


HOUSE GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE
Biological Weapons Convention
National Security, Veterans Affairs, and International Relations Subcommittee
hearing to examine the status of negotiations to develop an enforcement
protocol to the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) prohibiting the
development, production and stockpiling of such weapons.
Witnesses: Ambassador Donald Mahley, special negotiator,
     Chemical and Biological Arms Control, State
     Department; representatives from General Accounting
     Office, Defense Department, and Commerce Department
Location: 2154 Rayburn House Office Building. 10 a.m.
Contact: 202-225-5074 http://www.house.gov/reform




From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Wed Sep 13 08:02:36 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:02:36 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
Message-ID: 

Ray said:

> Mcveigh, as he is, is just a random crazy.  But if, say, one 
> out of ten American Citizens or so had looked up from the news 
> story and gone, "It's about time somebody started fighting those 
> bastards" then he'd have a constituency to whom he could be a 
> freedom fighter.  And also a nonzero chance of causing real 
> change.   

    And just what is it that makes you think that "one out of ten" 
didn't secretly cheer that news? Or maybe more? And even if it were
only "one out a thousand", isn't that a significant number? Even in
the First American Revolution, not that many actually took up arms.
Many were totally against it, and fought for the Brits. If one in
a thousand took up arms today against the fedz, wouldn't that out-
number the US military?




From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep 13 01:07:55 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:07:55 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Internet Drivers License
References: <200008311607.JAA18480@sirius.infonex.com>
Message-ID: <39BF35DB.28C4878C@ricardo.de>

jfanonymous at yahoo.com wrote:
>      That sounds like censorship to me.
>      Way to restrictive, kinda like COPPA aka Children Loose
> their Right to Free Speech Online (CLRFSO), a voilation of the
> first ammendment and of the Universal Declaration of Human
> Rights.

yeah, but let's give the guy a little sympathy. raise your hands if
you've never thought that the idiots should be thrown out upon contact
with a homo aol-us.




From support at edgar-online.com  Wed Sep 13 07:11:01 2000
From: support at edgar-online.com (support at edgar-online.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:11:01 EDT
Subject: CDR: EDGAR Online - Here is the Information You Requested
Message-ID: <200009131420.HAA11443@toad.com>

Your EDGAR Online (http://www.edgar-online.com) username and password are
case-sensitive and must be entered exactly as they are shown here.

Username: Cyperpunks  
Password: cypherpunks 

You can upgrade your current EDGAR Online Visitor Registration using these
identifiers at http://www.edgar-online.com/user_upgrade.asp.

If you have any questions email support at edgar-online.com or phone
1-800-416-6651 (203-852-5666) Monday - Friday, 9:00AM - 7:30PM EST.

EDGAR Online




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 10:15:36 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:15:36 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Bioterror in DC: Banning production of such weapons
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000913095901.023d7f00@mail.well.com>
References: <4.3.0.20000913095901.023d7f00@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 

At 9:59 AM -0400 9/13/00, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>HOUSE GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE
>Biological Weapons Convention
>National Security, Veterans Affairs, and International Relations Subcommittee
>hearing to examine the status of negotiations to develop an enforcement
>protocol to the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) prohibiting the
>development, production and stockpiling of such weapons.
>Witnesses: Ambassador Donald Mahley, special negotiator,
>     Chemical and Biological Arms Control, State
>     Department; representatives from General Accounting
>     Office, Defense Department, and Commerce Department


We've seen several such "bans." The bans are used to suppress 
civilian research, forcing those doing biological research to come 
under the aegis of Ft. Detrick, NRDD, the facilities in Utah, 
Oakland, CA, Atlanta, etc.

The George C. Scott film, "Rage," is a good one. Done in 1972 or so, 
it accurately captures the way Big Brother claims to have a monopoly 
on the contents of Pandora's Box. (To mix some myths.)

(Side note: I worked in an immunology lab in 1969-70 and saw 
first-hand the manouverings to get the private sector absorbed as a 
contractor--with gubmint as arbiter of what got published and what 
didn't--into the "biowarfare-industrial complex." And one of my high 
school friends is now a senior researcher in "northern Maryland." 
Hint hint.)

The supposed bans on CBW are mainly used to lull John and Mary 
Citizen into a false sense of security. Read Laurie Garrett's "Final 
Plague" (I think is the title) or Ken Alimbek's "Biohazard" for some 
good accounts. A readable, but not great, fictional treatment is 
Preston's "Cobra Event." Frank Herbert's "The White Plague" is as 
timely as it was in the 70s.

These kinds of CBW bans, such as the one above, will mainly be used 
to fan the flames of public hysteria that "bio hackers" are buying 
samples of Ebola or smallpox, whatever, and that the Web must come 
under government control so as to stop Little Johnny from hacking 
bugs in his mother's kitchen.

As usual, governments and their affiliated biological-industrial 
partners will continue expanding their inventory and library of 
deadly diseases to loose upon the world.

Pouring out the vials, as it were.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Sep 13 07:41:34 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:41:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: MPAA honeypot (Re: MPAA thinks linking is illegal [cpunk]
Message-ID: 

[I'm seeing a *large* number of messages yesterday 
and today which apparently have sat on some spool 
for around 2 weeks. In some cases, responses to 
these messages got through rapidly, but the original 
did not.]

> ----------
> David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com] writes:
> At 04:09 PM 8/30/00 -0400, Greg Newby wrote:
> >I was forced to remove my copy of the DeCSS code this spring by UNC as
> >a result of a complaint by the MPAA.
> 
> First, You have the right to contest any copyright infringement they
> allege to your ISP (UNC in this case).  Second, linking isn't copyright
> infringement.
> 
	[...]
> or confuse them: 
> 
> Post DeCSS under a different file name, possibly changing the .zip
> to avoid recognition by filesize.  Include enough text on your page
> to help the search engines.  (will the next MPAA target be search
> engines, which will be prohibited from indexing DeCSS?)
	[...]

Last weekend, someone spammed the DeCSS code to all or most
of the the comp.* usenet newsgroups. Deja has already removed all
of the original posts, but not messages which quote the original - for
example, the post noting this as a spam event contains the entire
source, and is still up. 

[It's possible that the posting had an x-no-archive header, but I doubt
it]

Peter






From tom at ricardo.de  Wed Sep 13 01:44:06 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:44:06 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
	 <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de> 
Message-ID: <39BF3E56.A2F4F81E@ricardo.de>

petro wrote:
> >sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. this is an
> >economic puzzle, not a political one. food, clothes, tobacco, gas/petrol
> 
>         Then you neither understand politics, or economics.

one was part of my study, the other not.


>         And no, I don't claim to either, but as near as I can tell
> there isn't a  spits worth of difference between economics and
> politics.

I do believe there is. a market is more difficult to buy than a
politician, for one.


>         Food maybe, but tobacco and gas are both things that *can* be
> done without.

in theory. in real life, consumption does NOT change a tiny bit with
price changes. there's a (largely theoretical) cut-off point, where
consumption suddenly drops to or near zero after a certain price, but
I'm not aware of any events where this actually happened.




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 07:56:12 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:56:12 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>

Lizard wrote:
> 
> At 03:11 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> >       I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website
> >throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as
> >well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really
> >are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you
> >would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to
> >preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their
> >son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from
> >happening again.
> 
> Ah, the fascists rise to the bait!
> 
> Freedom of speech is a moral absolute. The words of NAMBLA are as
> important, and about as morally sound, as the words of Jodi Hoffman. And,
> IMO, about as likely to cause a murder.

	Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and 
murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First 
Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel 
differently.

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 08:01:15 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:01:15 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <39BF96BB.3D4C@attglobal.net>

Colin Rafferty wrote:
> 
> Jodi Hoffman writes:
> > Declan McCullagh forwards:
> 
> >> Frisoli, the Curley lawyer, has been making very outrageous and
> >> false statements about what was on the web site. Because the media
> >> has no access to the site, no one can contradict him. ... Printed
> >> material from NAMBLA is difficult to find. Members of NAMBLA will
> >> speak to the press only under conditions of strict anonymity
> >> because they fear for their lives. And the web site is not
> >> accessible.
> 
> >       I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website
> > throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as
> > well as their attorney.
> 
> I think that would be an excellent idea.  The best thing for this case
> would be to see what was actually on the web site.
> 
> Of course, I would suggest showing it to everyone, and not just the
> Curley family lawyers.  Because of NAMBLA had nothing to do with the
> murder, I'm sure you wouldn't want to see them falsely found liable.
> 
> > I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important
> > you think it is to preserve the information put out by the people
> > who helped cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing
> > something to help prevent it from happening again.
> 
> So your printouts of the NAMBLA web site show where they encourage
> people to rape and/or murder children?
> 
> Do you have any quotes?
> 
> > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> 
> Always a good quote.  So what is the truth about what was on the
> NAMBLA web site?  Yell it from the rooftops.
> 
> --
> Colin

	"Yell it from the rooftops." Colin, you devil, you read the 
Bible?
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Wed Sep 13 09:04:37 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:04:37 -0500
Subject: CDR: Randseed dead?
Message-ID: <24f0f6f4a9e8a96a0d61801b48a7a5b1@anon.xg.nu>

   Anybody know what's wrong with the randseed remailer? It
hasn't been mailing yesterday or today.




From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Wed Sep 13 08:06:56 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:06:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Is kerberos broken? cpunk
Message-ID: 



> ----------
> From: 	David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com]
> 
> At 12:00 PM 8/31/00 -0400, Joseph Ashwood wrote:
> >No but I feel free to type a hundred or so, but that's beside the
> >point. The claim made was that anything a human can remember, a
> >computer can brute force, this was simply one very clear example that
> >it simply was not true, as I rather thoroughly established.
> 
> Anything large that a human can remember has enough structure so that you
> don't need brute force, you use a dictionary-based attack.
> 
This is nonsense. The wordspace of languages is large enough that 
it's easy to compose perfectly reasonable texts which are 
highly resistant to dictionary attacks.

For one of my leisure time activities, I have to memorize set texts
up to 15 minutes long. I'm expected to give these letter perfect, and
I do. 

Here's an example of a good passphrase:

"David grossly underestimates the ability of homo sapiens to memorize
and exactly reproduce long texts. An examination of American 
high school students ability to perform the Gettysburg Address is a
good counterexample."

222 bytes, more or less. Even if we assume only 1bit of entropy per
character (it's ordinary english), that's a pretty tough space to search.
It's a safe bet that those two sentences have never been placed
together in all of human history before now, so there's no dictionary
to check.

The problem is not that passphrases *can't* be made secure -
the problem is that most people are unwilling to use good ones. 

Peter Trei



 





From holovacs at idt.net  Wed Sep 13 08:27:52 2000
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:27:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>

You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
advocate violence to children)

Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.

jay

----- Original Message -----
From: Jodi Hoffman 
To: Lizard 
Cc: Declan McCullagh ; ;

Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
>
> Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> differently.





From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 08:45:10 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:45:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>

Jay Holovacs wrote:
> 
> You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
> same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> advocate violence to children)


Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?


> 
> Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> 
> jay
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jodi Hoffman 
> To: Lizard 
> Cc: Declan McCullagh ; ;
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> >
> > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > differently.

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From frissell at panix.com  Wed Sep 13 08:50:49 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:50:49 -0400
Subject: CDR: KERSHOFF
In-Reply-To: <25250-39BEF990-14168@storefull-105.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913114954.04e164c0@popserver.panix.com>

At 11:50 PM 9/12/00 -0400, eileen douvarjo wrote:
>Searching SS# for John/Jacob Kershoff,
>lived 1940-1950's onStaten Island, N.Y.
>Been told his name was JAY, could be nickname. Died before 1995,  he was
>married to Margaret Whitehead and had two children.
>He was an officer in the US Navy during WW11. Thank you.
>Eileen Douvarjo

Search here:

http://www.ancestry.com/search/rectype/vital/ssdi/main.htm

No surname Kershoff appears in the SS Death Index.  Try other spellings.

DCF
----
It's genetic.  Note on the 1871 Canadian census entry for my 2nd great 
grandfather Josiah Burr Plumb:
"Obstructed here by Party refusing any convenience (visits?) upon Veranda 
Ordering Enumerator out."




From holovacs at idt.net  Wed Sep 13 09:02:21 2000
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:02:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>

You miss the point...  I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
That is immaterial.

I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.

jay

----- Original Message -----
From: Jodi Hoffman 
To: Jay Holovacs 
Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
; 
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?


> Jay Holovacs wrote:
> >
> > You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
the
> > same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> > advocate violence to children)
>
>
> Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
>
>
> >
> > Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> > protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> > murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> >
> > jay
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > To: Lizard 
> > Cc: Declan McCullagh ;
;
> > 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > >
> > > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > > differently.
>
> --
> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
>
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
>




From mclark at cdt.org  Wed Sep 13 09:04:54 2000
From: mclark at cdt.org (Michael Clark)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:04:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

You may want to look into the Publius Censorship Resistant Publishing 
System. http://publius.cdt.org. This is a beta system currently, so 
is only a short term solution. But you could post a file to Publius, 
send the resulting URL out to cypherpunks and other lists, and then 
anyone could get a copy of the file anonymously. Michael


At 11:34 PM -0400 9/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>[A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. 
>Any offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume 
>they'll be duly forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in 
>question here would last on a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]



--
Michael Clark, Assistant Webmaster
Center for Democracy and Technology
1634 Eye Street NW, Suite 1100    Washington, DC 20006
voice: 202-637-9800    fax: 202-637-0968
mclark at cdt.org         http://www.cdt.org/
PGP Key available on keyservers

Join our Activist Network! Your participation can make a difference!
http://www.cdt.org/join/




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Sep 13 09:38:31 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:38:31 -0400
Subject: CDR: censorship rears its head
Message-ID: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>

Lieberman: Entertainment Must
            Police Itself or Else 
            By Kalpana Srinivasan
            Associated Press Writer

            WASHINGTON (AP) - Sen. Joe Lieberman decried a
            "culture of carnage" surrounding Americas young
            people and told a Senate committee Wednesday that
            the government should stop the marketing of violent
            movies, music and video games to children if the
            industry fails to police itself. 
 http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGI11ED63DC.html


Lynne Cheney, former Chairman, National Endowment for the Humanities, is set
to testify before the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and
Transportation on Wednesday. 

Cheney is planning to take direct aim at Eminem for his "hatred of women"
with depictions that are "degrading and violating". Cheney will also zero in
on the rappers record distibutor, SEAGRAMS, Hill sources reveal. She will
challenge members of SEAGRAMS board. 
 http://www.drudgereport.com/mat28jj.htm

Snipers Needed.







From imtiazali at lovemail.com  Wed Sep 13 05:48:16 2000
From: imtiazali at lovemail.com (imtiaz ali)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 12:48:16 -0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000913124816.5397.qmail@whitfield.chek.com>

Dear sir

I have to take a few information & I will be thankful to you if you will guide me .
I had visited the web site  www.conchrepublic.com. they are saying that it was the part of the Florida state separated from the USA in the 1982 . now they are issuing the passport of the conchrepublic by just paying the fee of 109 US$ & sending the 3 PASSPORT size picture, id card s & current passports photo copy. 
I will be thankful to you if you inform me that whether this republic exist & they are the representative of the republic . the address of their Secretary General is on whos name the draft of 109 is to be sent.

                    Office of the Secretary General 
P.O. Box 6583 
Key West, FL 33041-6583 
 Phone:(305) 296-0213 
 FAX: (305) 296-8803 

Conch Republic Communications 
P.O. Box 735 
Key Largo, FL 33037-0735 


       please inform me soon.


Thanks

imtiazali 


_____________________________________________________________
Signup for your FREE email account at http://www.lovemail.com




From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep 13 13:10:18 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:10:18 -0700
Subject: CDR: USA.net proxy: *** NOT! ****
References: <200009122144.RAA03630@www2.aa.psiweb.com>
Message-ID: <39BFDF2A.9DE947D4@sunder.net>

George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
> 
> Previously I whined that USA.net was changing the URLs
> in received email to proxy through their server, meaning
> they had logs of all URLs you visited when clicking on
> hyperlinks while reading your personal email.


 
> Here is the resulting URL in the new window USA.net opens
> when you click on an URL in your email:
> 
> http://www.netaddress.com/tpl/Info/Popup?hidden___url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F
> 



> Continue clicking, and it's still via USA.net.

It's *NOT* anonymizing anything. DO NOT USE THIS IN PLACE OF AN ANONIMIZER!!!
All it does is log where you're going.  It doesn't actually proxy anything. It simply opens up two frames, one that says "You are
visiting a site outside of Net at ddress. Please close this browser to return to Net at ddress." and instructs your browser to go to
whatever embedded url you have. In this case Amazon.com.

Should you hover your mouse over the links in Amazon you won't see the netaddress.com url pop up. You'll see Amazon urls.

So while, yes, it does spy on what urls you visit, it does *NOT* proxy them, so it offers no protection!!!


-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 13:19:18 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:19:18 -0700
Subject: CDR: Noah's Flood
Message-ID: 


A year and a half ago I read one of the most interesting, 
interdisciplinary books I've ever read, "Noah's Flood," by Ryan and 
Pitman. Not a religious book, but a book combining oceanography, 
geology, fish biology, pottery studies, DNA analysis, mythology, and 
several other fields.

The big news today was the announcement that human habitation remains 
have been found where the Ryan and Pitman theory predicted. This has 
profound significance for our culture, for understanding the spread 
of Indo-European language, and for the apparent "diaspora" happening 
at around this time.

(It would not surprise me if the earliest known agricultural 
implements are found in the next few years.)

This is not a Cypherpunks topic, but I believe I've mentioned the 
Ryan and Pitman book here before. And it shows how science is done.

To quote one of the many stories appearing today:


Wednesday September 13 3:00 AM ET
New Evidence of Great Flood Found

By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The first evidence that humans lived in an area now 
covered by the Black Sea - perhaps inundated by the biblical flood - 
has been found by a team of explorers.

``Artifacts at the site are clearly well preserved, with carved 
wooden beams, wooden branches and stone tools,'' lead researcher 
Robert Ballard said.
...
Columbia University researchers William Ryan and Walter Pittman 
speculated in their 1997 book ``Noah's Flood'' that when the European 
glaciers melted, about 7,000 years ago, the Mediterranean Sea 
overflowed into what was then a smaller freshwater lake to create the 
Black Sea.

Last year Ballard found indications of an ancient coastline miles out 
from the current Black Sea coast. The new discovery provides evidence 
that people once lived in that now inundated region.

(end excerpt)
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep 13 10:19:38 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:19:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> 
Message-ID: <39BFB711.6C6150E1@acmenet.net>

Tim May wrote:
> We as a culture have swung far away from "sticks and stones may break
> my bones but names will never hurt me" toward a culture of lawsuits.
> And the lawyer lobby supports and embraces this culture, getting laws
> passed making it easier every day to suppress speech.

For my first year of law school I'm taking Contracts, Criminal Law,
Legal Writing, and Torts. The books for the first three subjects aren't
too bad from a "lawyers are scum" perspective, but both of my torts
books had me screaming within twenty pages. In one, the authors argue
for greatly increasing the scope of tort offenses and reducing the
permissible defenses [1]. As if the US doesn't have enough frivolous
and nonsensical lawsuits. In the other, on page 3 yet, the authors
argue that if someone is injured such that he can no longer work,
_someone_ should be held financially liable because society has lost
the first person's wages [2]. That seems just half a step from saying
that the people are the property of the state. Maybe I'm reading too
much into poorly-phrased paragraphs, but I haven't seen anything in
either book to contradict the bad impression.

[1] _Understanding Torts_, Diamond, Levine, and Madden, Matthew
Bender.
[2] _Torts and Compensation_ 3rd ed, Dobbs and Hayden, West
Publishing


See http://www.overlawyered.com for a jaundiced view of the legal
system. The site editor, Walter Olsen, has particular "issues" with
plaintiff's lawyers.


-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 10:25:29 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:25:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its head
In-Reply-To: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>
References: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: 

At 12:38 PM -0400 9/13/00, A. Melon wrote:
>Lieberman: Entertainment Must
>             Police Itself or Else
>             By Kalpana Srinivasan
>             Associated Press Writer
>
>             WASHINGTON (AP) - Sen. Joe Lieberman decried a
>             "culture of carnage" surrounding Americas young
>             people and told a Senate committee Wednesday that
>             the government should stop the marketing of violent
>             movies, music and video games to children if the
>             industry fails to police itself.
> http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGI11ED63DC.html
>
>
>Lynne Cheney, former Chairman, National Endowment for the Humanities, is set
>to testify before the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and
>Transportation on Wednesday.
>
>Cheney is planning to take direct aim at Eminem for his "hatred of women"
>with depictions that are "degrading and violating". Cheney will also zero in
>on the rappers record distibutor, SEAGRAMS, Hill sources reveal. She will
>challenge members of SEAGRAMS board.
> http://www.drudgereport.com/mat28jj.htm
>
>Snipers Needed.

I will look forward to watching the coverage. Do you plan to take out 
just the censorious bitch Lynne Cheney, or also her censorious 
husband and VP candidate?

And then there's Al Gore (RAT) and his running mate (JEW RAT).

(Subliminal messages brought to you by the Republican Party).

Interesting that 3 out of the 4 top rats--Cheney, Gore, 
Lieberman--have their own censorious attacks on speech, or have 
spouses who lead such attacks. Lynne, Tipper, and   Lieberman 
himself. I wonder why Bush is being left out? Maybe it'll be like 
Nixon in China: the only one of the four not calling for repeal of 
the First Amendment will be the one who pulls the trigger.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From emc at chao.insync.net  Wed Sep 13 14:06:15 2000
From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
Message-ID: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>

http://www.newsday.com/ap/national/ap254.htm

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) -- After nine months in solitary confinement, Wen
Ho Lee pleaded guilty Wednesday to a single count of mishandling nuclear
secrets and was set free by an apologetic judge who said the government's
actions ''embarrassed our entire nation.''

...

''I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which
you were held in custody by the executive branch,'' Parker said.

Parker said the Departments of Justice and Energy ''have embarrassed our
entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.''

...

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 11:06:25 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:06:25 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BFB711.6C6150E1@acmenet.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
Message-ID: 

At 1:19 PM -0400 9/13/00, Steven Furlong wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>>  We as a culture have swung far away from "sticks and stones may break
>>  my bones but names will never hurt me" toward a culture of lawsuits.
>>  And the lawyer lobby supports and embraces this culture, getting laws
>>  passed making it easier every day to suppress speech.
>
>For my first year of law school I'm taking Contracts, Criminal Law,
>Legal Writing, and Torts. The books for the first three subjects aren't
>too bad from a "lawyers are scum" perspective, but both of my torts
>books had me screaming within twenty pages.

Why in the name of all that is good and interesting would you train 
to become a _lawyer_?

Jeesh.

(From a practical standpoint, here in the Bay Area there is a growing 
oversupply of lawyers. According to the newspapers, modulo their 
biases and inaccuracies, many lawyer larvae are accepting "paralegal" 
positions. As with past "shortages of doctors" and "shortages of 
teachers," the boom-bust cycle continues. Also, there is a trend 
toward "corporatization" of these fields, with doctors as 
not-so-highly-paid-anymore employees of HMOs, for example. If the 
trend carried over to LMOs (Legal Maintenance Organizations), look 
out.)

>In one, the authors argue
>for greatly increasing the scope of tort offenses and reducing the
>permissible defenses [1]. As if the US doesn't have enough frivolous
>and nonsensical lawsuits. In the other, on page 3 yet, the authors
>argue that if someone is injured such that he can no longer work,
>_someone_ should be held financially liable because society has lost
>the first person's wages [2]. That seems just half a step from saying
>that the people are the property of the state. Maybe I'm reading too
>much into poorly-phrased paragraphs, but I haven't seen anything in
>either book to contradict the bad impression.

All of this is why I protest so loudly when I hear people saying "But 
this is a lawsuit, not a government action! It's not speech 
suppression, just the tort process at work."

(And there are some connections, which I won't go into right now, 
with treating journalists as some kind of special protected class, 
with "shield laws" and customary (pace Lessig) exemptions from 
lawsuits which would hit ordinary proles. There should be no such 
exemptions, and yet far higher standards for successfully suing. My 
not liking the words of NAMBLA, or Declan McCullagh, or Aryan 
Nations, should not be enough to get a lawsuit into a court of law.)

There have been _practical_ solutions offered. "Loser pays" is the 
most obvious one. (With no way of avoiding the judgment. Not with 
bankruptcy, not with poverty. If Sally B. Frivolous files a lawsuit 
against J. Random Company and _loses_ and is ordered to pay court 
costs and damages of several million dollars, then let her mop floors 
for the next 60 years, paying 80% of her earnings just to keep up 
with the interest payments! Debtor's prisons are a good idea.)


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 14:09:55 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:09:55 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
References: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
Message-ID: 

At 4:57 PM -0400 9/13/00, Omri Schwarz wrote:
>  > At 11:27 AM -0400 9/13/00, Jay Holovacs wrote:
>>  >You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
>>  >same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
>>  >advocate violence to children)
>>  >
>>  >Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
>>  >protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
>>  >murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
>>  >
>>
>>  Actually, the tide of civil lawsuits against all sorts of
>>  organizations is rising. Aryan Nations was just ordered to pay some
>>  multimillion dollar fee because some woman was harassed or attacked
>>  or had her feelings hurt--not sure which--by some people she claimed
>>  were connected to or influenced by AN.
>
>
>Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
>by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
>with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)

This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
backfire.

I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
compound she hated so much.

A pseudonymous person sent me a note on this woman and her plans, 
including this excerpt, which I agree with:

"The fact the woman, supposedly a random passing stranger, intends to use
the money and convert the compound to a 'Peace Center' makes me think
the entire thing was a setup. "

In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those 
who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an 
example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" 
doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty 
Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like.

I still say we should sue Operation Push for every asset it has. 
Hymietown, indeed.

--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 14:20:00 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:20:00 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 2:06 PM -0700 9/13/00, Eric Cordian wrote:
>http://www.newsday.com/ap/national/ap254.htm
>
>ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) -- After nine months in solitary confinement, Wen
>Ho Lee pleaded guilty Wednesday to a single count of mishandling nuclear
>secrets and was set free by an apologetic judge who said the government's
>actions ''embarrassed our entire nation.''
>
>...
>
>''I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which
>you were held in custody by the executive branch,'' Parker said.
>
>Parker said the Departments of Justice and Energy ''have embarrassed our
>entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.''

Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant 
salary and retirement benefits.

This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary 
William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss 
of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his 
home computer and leaving codeword material where his family, 
housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.

There are a couple of cases of other DOD folks in the same straits.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep 13 11:52:56 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:52:56 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> 
Message-ID: <39BFCCF5.B4D4D04B@acmenet.net>

Tim May wrote:
> Why in the name of all that is good and interesting would you train
> to become a _lawyer_?

 I make my living as a programmer, and plan to continue to do so.
I want a law degree to help defend techies and free software projects
from big-bucks corps and govts who feel threatened or avaricious over
some aspect of the free projects. I'm attempting to help in some
prior-restraint-on-crypto cases now, on the tech side, and would have
liked to be able to help on the legal side. After I have a year of
school under my belt, I'll see if EFF or the like can use some
untrained assistance.


> (From a practical standpoint, here in the Bay Area there is a growing
> oversupply of lawyers.

That's the case all over the US, isn't it? But you're right, the Bay
Area seems to have more than its share. Look on the bright side: the
lawyers will probably manage to kill the Silicon Valley boom in a few
more years, the boom will go elsewhere, and the lawyers will follow.


<>
> There have been _practical_ solutions offered. "Loser pays" is the
> most obvious one.

I like "loser pays", too. Interesting that various associations of
trial lawyers contribute big bucks to kill loser pays, all the while
sanctimoniously declaiming that they're only looking out for the
interests of Sally Mae, who was rendered sterile at age 53 by a
chemical spill two hundred miles away. See
http://www.overlawyered.com/topics/politics.html (not for Sally Mae;
I just made that up).


Regards,
SRF

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Wed Sep 13 11:59:16 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:59:16 -0400
Subject: CDR: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
Message-ID: <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892@melontraffickers.com>

Middle school student arrested in
 poisoning

 Wednesday, 13 September 2000 0:18 (ET)


 Middle school student arrested in poisoning

 Middle school student arrested in poisoning

  JACKSONVILLE, Fla., Sept. 12 (UPI) -- A 15-year-old Jacksonville, Fla.,
 boy was arrested Tuesday for allegedly putting rat poison in salsa served at
 his schools cafeteria, resulting in the illness of 34 students, WJXT-TV
 reported.

  The name of the Paxon Middle School student was not released.

  The teenager was charged with poisoning food or water, a first-degree
 felony that carries a maximum penalty of 25 years in prison. A 12-year-old
 student was also questioned but had not been charged. Jacksonville Sheriffs
 Office Sgt. Gordon Bass said authorities have no motive for the crime.

  Investigators said 25 grams of Talon-G, an anti-coagulant, was put in the
 condiment during lunch Tuesday. Fifteen students were taken to hospitals
 complaining of nausea, headache, vomiting and stomach pains, while the
 others were treated at the school.

  Some parents said they cant afford to pay for the hospital treatment
 their children received and they want the school board to cover the cost.








From emc at chao.insync.net  Wed Sep 13 15:04:11 2000
From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:04:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: <200009132204.RAA61026@chao.insync.net>

Jodi Hoffman  writes:

> I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website
> throughout the years. 

So you can lie about what's in it cleverly enough not to get caught?

You *are* the same Jodi Hoffman who claims Sex Education is Satan's
Doorway to our Childrens' Innocence, aren't you.  The world's most
prolific frivilous lawsuit filer and nuisance to public educators
everywhere?

> Maybe you really are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.

Right, lady.  Everyone who doesn't buy into the Sex Abuse Agenda as
presented by their local contingent of Religious Fanatics or Lying
Feminists Cunts is a NAMBLA member.

You're one of those fine people whose agenda it is to intimidate their
opponents into silence, and then lie about what it is they would have
said, had they been permitted to speak.

> I wonder if you would tell the parents to their face how important you
> think it is to preserve the information put out by the people who helped
> cause their son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help
> prevent it from happening again.

NAMBLA's rather boring text-only web site, containing comments by noted
educators, scientists, humanitarians, and artists on the topic of
transgenerational male homosexuality, moral panic, youth rights, and
extreme sex laws, is hardly, as the Curley family has alleged, a magical
resource which changes heterosexuals into pedophiles, and mild-mannered
Milquetoasts into murderers.

Any more than your web site changes atheists into God-Soaked anti-Sexual
Freaks like yourself.

Go beat your "childrens' victimization" drum elsewhere.  This is a
cryptography and civil liberties list.  Start your own Fascistpunks list
if you want a forum to spew.

As for the credentials of Robert Curley, who is *USING* his own son's
murder as a platform to attack causes the religious and political right
wing wants to damage, he is the only one of 2,000 city employees to be
allowed to "opt out" of four hours of mandatory "diversity training,"
because it would have forced him to "mouth beliefs he didn't espouse."

He also called the course, which attempts to prevent discrimination in the
workplace based on gender, sexual orientation, and race, "feel-good crap."

Like most death-penalty promoting defenders of the Christian Coalition who
try to undermine civil liberties while misdirecting the public with talk
of "child protection" and "pedophile activity," Curley sees an opening to
present the agenda of himself and his associate whores for Jesus cloaked
in words no politician dares oppose without committing political suicide.

It would be unwise to let him succeed.

That having been said, I don't think freedom of speech is going to sink or
swim based on whether the NAMBLA web site is mirrored in numerous
locations. Their lawyers may very well have advised them not to put it
back up or encourage others to host it pending the resolution of their
legal tangles.

All perspectives on all varieties of human sexuality are available at a
mouse click anyway, in the age of the Internet, and are so widely
distributed geographically that censorship is impossible.  In that sense,
part of NAMBLA's original mission has passed it by, as it is no longer
necessary to distribute opposing points of view on anything in brown paper
envelopes via snail mail.

If NAMBLA wants it mirrored, mirror it.  If they don't, print it out and
epoxy it to the side of Jodi Hoffman's barn as an example to other
censorous cows.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From billp at nmol.com  Wed Sep 13 14:11:12 2000
From: billp at nmol.com (bill payne)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:11:12 -0600
Subject: CDR: state lawsuit time
Message-ID: <39BFED70.AE83EC52@nmol.com>

http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/

Will be interesting to see how if fed get out of this one.

Maybe the feds can get around to settling some of their other New Mexico
lawsuits next?   Wednesday September 13, 2000 10:00

NSA lawsuit 1   2   3      Thursday July 27, 2000 09:53

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Don Hewitt: "a randy old goat" Tuesday August 22, 2000 10:56 60 Minutes
to Detonation Don Hewitt sex scandal. 1  Don Hewitt and the Iranian
slaughter. Don Hewitt and the NSA 1



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secret Compartmented Information  1   2   Thursday August 24, 2000 14:39

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds   0

History for the NSA FOIA lawsuit
Appeals process tutorial   Saturday February 5, 2000 12:32
Docket    Sunday February 27, 2000 13:34

If they can.




From emc at chao.insync.net  Wed Sep 13 15:12:21 2000
From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:12:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
Message-ID: <200009132212.RAA61066@chao.insync.net>

Harmon Seaver  wrote:

> Why, then, did he find Lee guilty of a felony? He could have dismissed
> the charges, eh?

He was bound by the terms of the plea agreement, without which the DOJ and
DOE would have continued to give Dr. Lee the broom handle/asshole
treatment.

Politics is the art of compromise.

The government also has language in the plea agreement which prevents them
from being held accountable for any of their behavior in the case.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"




From kerry at vscape.com  Wed Sep 13 13:07:20 2000
From: kerry at vscape.com (Kerry L. Bonin)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:07:20 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: VISA to smartcard the US
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000913125448.04229100@shell13.ba.best.com>

Take a look at Dallas Semiconductor's Crypto iButton family.  FIPS level 2
and 3 certified DSA/SHA services with a JVM in a large watch battery form
factor, under $50 for FOB and interface.  (Disclaimer - I don't work there,
I've just used their products for many years now and have designed them
into a dozen odd products.)  Many interesting places use these as personal
certificate storage to authenticate access.

At 02:18 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>
>Hmmm.  These devices could be useful, even without using 
>them as credit cards.  I wonder if you could buy a batch 
>of them from the manufacturer with custom software installed? 
>
>It would sure be nice if I could make a physical key token 
>that would render my system completely useless if the key 
>were, say, in my wallet at work, and the computer found its 
>way to, say, the hands of someone carrying out an illegal 
>search and seizure.  
>
>likewise it would be nice to store PGP keys on, etc -- bits 
>of data that you want to maintain complete physical control 
>of at all times. 
>
>"Oppression is sometimes best fought with the tools that 
>the oppressors have built for their own use." 
>
>I want a PGPdisk you can boot from.
>
>				Bear
>
>
>On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, A. Melon wrote:
>
>>Sep 12, 2000 - 07:27 PM 
>>
>>            Visa USA to Launch Smart Card in
>>            the U.S. 
>>            The Associated Press
>>
>>            NEW YORK (AP) - After success with its smart card in
>>            Europe and Japan, Visa is aiming squarely at the U.S.
>>            market with an upgraded version that contains more
>>            memory. 
>>
>>            Over the next couple of weeks, Visa USA, the
>>            companys U.S. division, will be launching smart cards
>>            - microprocessors embedded in plastic -that will offer
>>            prepackaged services to be determined by its issuers. 
>>
>>            Customers will be able to download information from
>>            their computers via special card readers. Over the next
>>            year or so, they will be able to store airline tickets, for
>>            example, and eventually use the cards as keys to their
>>            cars and homes. 
>>
>>            The card, which has 32 kilobytes of memory, is
>>            different from Visas original version, which has mainly
>>            served as a "monetary value card," said Al Banisch,
>>            senior vice president of consumer credit products. 
>>
>>            The new card will be available free to Visas 350
>>            million cardholders. 
>>
>>
>
>
>
>





From 000ymao at china.com  Wed Sep 13 16:09:05 2000
From: 000ymao at china.com (000ymao at china.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:09:05
Subject: CDR: Warning!  You're Losing money on your Merchant Account...
Message-ID: <810.52506.539426@china.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 3521 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From George at Orwellian.Org  Wed Sep 13 13:12:09 2000
From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:12:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: USA.net proxy: heh-heh-heh
Message-ID: <200009132012.QAA06771@www8.aa.psiweb.com>



George at Orwellian.Org wrote:
> 
> http://www.netaddress.com/tpl/Info/Popup?hidden___url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F
> 
> Continue clicking, and it's still via USA.net.

Sunderizer wrote:
#    It's *NOT* anonymizing anything. DO NOT USE THIS IN PLACE OF AN ANONIMIZER!!!
#    
#    So while, yes, it does spy on what urls you visit,...
#    so it offers no protection!!!

Gee, that goes without saying. Well, it should have.

#    All it does is log where you're going.  It doesn't actually proxy anything.

If the systems you connect to don't get your IP, it's a proxy.
All of AOL is a proxy.

#    Should you hover your mouse over the links in Amazon you won't see the
#    netaddress.com url pop up. You'll see Amazon urls.

[checking...] You're right. It's not proxying. It's just got a fixed first frame
going through netaddress which keeps the netaddress.net URL in the URLbar. The
other frames are direct connects.

I was distracted by an Anna Kournikova commercial, okay?

----

Still, the original complaint stands.




From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org  Wed Sep 13 09:16:00 2000
From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:16:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Jim Choate wrote:

> A *federal* child care facility. What knuckle-head ok'ed putting a child
> care facility in the same building as several federal LEA headquarters?
> And what sort of parent would want to put their child there...?

Sheeple, who don't think defensively. Even for their kids

oh, don't get me wrong, a convicted child molester moving into town, or
maybe an 'obscene' website, they'll scream about -- but they don't think
about real danger

Some years ago, in a Northern Virginia neighborhood that I lived near, a
group of theives went down the street at night and tried to open car
doors, when they found one that was unlocked they looted it. Amoung their
take were several handguns. What boggled me at the time was that if
someone was paranoid/intelligent enough to carry a gun, why weren't they
paranoid/intelligent enough to lock the damn car door at night? 

The answer that eluded me at the time was that intelligence and paranoia
are two different things, and paranoia without intelligence is dangerous.

And americans seem to be lacking in intelligence

> Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.

This would probably have not been a decision made by the parents of the
kids in question. Most sheeple aren't that intelligent or cold-blooded.

Ph.




From ian at zeroknowledge.com  Wed Sep 13 13:18:57 2000
From: ian at zeroknowledge.com (Ian Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:18:57 -0400
Subject: CDR: RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party - Sept. 21
Message-ID: <200009132018.QAA12093@iang.zks.net>

As most of you know, the RSA patent expires next week (that they issued 
a press release waiving some rights early notwithstanding).  We've been 
waiting a *long* time for this, and now we're throwing a long-anticipated 
party to celebrate!

This is a benefit for the CryptoRights Foundation, which, among other 
things, promotes the use of cryptography by Human Rights workers in 
"less-friendly" countries in order to protect both the workers and the 
people they're trying to interview and help.  [If you've never heard a talk 
by one of these people who goes to train said human rights workers in the 
use of crypto and steganography, you should get someone to tell you about 
it; it's not otherwise obvious how related the fields are, and it's 
extremely enlightening.]

There will be no charge at the door, but t-shirts and stuff will be 
available to buy.  You need to reserve (free) tickets in advance, though,
which can be had by emailing .

Below is the full announcement.  Corporate stuff starts at 8, music starts 
at 10.  Let people know about this, and I hope to see you there!

   - Ian

	A copy of this note will be at:

	http://www.cryptorights.org/benefit
	http://www.shmoo.com/rsa

	Celebrate with us as we celebrate the end of an era

	The Big RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party
	A fundraiser for the Cryptorights Foundation
	(http://www.cryptorights.org/)
	September 21, 2000
	8PM-2AM

	produced by

	Cryptorights Foundation
	BPM Consulting International

	with special thanks to our Gold Sponsor

	Certicom

	also sponsored by

	VA Linux
	Electronic Frontier Foundation
	PAIP International
	The Shmoo Group
	The Secret Order of Former Primes

	The Great American Music Hall
	859 O'Farrell St. (between Polk & Larkin)
	21+
	http://www.musichallsf.com/info/directions/

	By invitation only. In order to receive your invitation, send an
email with the # of people who plan to attend to
 Entrance is free, but the
Cryptorights Foundation will be accepting donations at the door.

	The first few hours will feature short speeches and presentations
from luminaries in the fields of cryptography and human rights. We
will present awards to various individuals for technical and activist
contributions.
	The tail end of the presentations will feature a "Wheel of Fortune"
with by your friendly hosts, John Gilmore and Cindy Cohn from the
Electronic Frontier Foundation. Solve the puzzle (donation
suggested) or buy one vowel and benefit human rights!

	Finally, at 10:00PM, the beats will drop and your evening will end
with the slamming techno sounds of the San Francisco underground!

Featuring

Sameer (FnF, Cloudfactory, Urban Wasteland, Mad Hatter, trustcrew)
	Sameer has been active in the San Francisco underground throwing
parties since 1993. In 1999 with some of the crew he met through
Friends & Family he started throwing the legendary Urban Wasteland
parties in urban renegade locations in and around the East Bay. He
also picked up his first slab of wax in early 1999 and has been
playing sick pounding techno at parties around the world since then.
He is also involved in producing a weekly club in Oakland called the
Mad Hatter. Sameer is also known as the founder of C2Net, the company
that pioneered the international development of strong cryptography to
avoid United States export restrictions.

DJ Tektrix (Sister, Tetractys, Influence Recordings)
	Cary, a/k/a DJ Tektrix, moved to San Francisco in 1997. Since then
Tektrix has played alongside DJs such as Forest Green, Twerk, Terrac,
Plateshifter, Mike Sims, Darin Marshall, Sean Murray, J-Bird, Tom L-G,
2x4 with DJ Zeel, Sifu, HoneyB, and Ethan. In 1999 she threw a party
called Circle that took place at the Mother's Cookies Warehouse,
conducted weekly live internet and pirate radio broadcasts on Vulcan
Free Radio, and this year became a resident at Tetractys and Sister.
She has played at parties such as Static, Circle, Overworld, and
Topica.

Forest Green (Cloudfactory, Sister, XLR8R, technologix, FnF)
	Forest Green has been throwing down beats with the sickness for
several years. She has traveled both across the nation and into Canada
to bring the sick Techno sound to those in need. you might also know
her as one of the starring DJs from the hit underground movie Groove!





From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Wed Sep 13 13:51:28 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz ---)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:51:28 EDT
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:34:30 EDT."
             <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> 
Message-ID: <200009132051.QAA23800@lola-granola.mit.edu>

> [A veteran free speech activist in Cambridge, Mass. sent me this. Any 
> offers of mirroring should go to the list, where I assume they'll be duly 
> forwarded. I wonder how long the HTML files in question here would last on 
> a Geocities/etc account. --Declan]
> 

Did Curley's lawyers at least have the smarts to grab a snapshot
of the site before getting it taken down?




From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Wed Sep 13 13:55:10 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz ---)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:55:10 EDT
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:11:34 EDT."
             <39BF28A6.2EEB@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <200009132055.QAA23823@lola-granola.mit.edu>

> 	I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website 
> throughout the years.  Maybe I should contact this child's parents as 
> well as their attorney.  Maybe you should do the same.  Maybe you really 

You definitely should. 

A quick email from anybody on this list and your printouts
will be subpoenaed. (By which side, I know not.)

> are a member of NAMBLA.  It certainly sounds like it.  I wonder if you 

Maybe you're an alien from space.

> would tell the parents to their face how important you think it is to 
> preserve the information put out by the people who helped cause their 
> son to be murdered, rather than doing something to help prevent it from 
> happening again.






From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Wed Sep 13 13:57:50 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz ---)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:57:50 EDT
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 09:42:02 PDT."
              
Message-ID: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>

> At 11:27 AM -0400 9/13/00, Jay Holovacs wrote:
> >You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT the
> >same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> >advocate violence to children)
> >
> >Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> >protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> >murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> >
> 
> Actually, the tide of civil lawsuits against all sorts of 
> organizations is rising. Aryan Nations was just ordered to pay some 
> multimillion dollar fee because some woman was harassed or attacked 
> or had her feelings hurt--not sure which--by some people she claimed 
> were connected to or influenced by AN.


Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)






From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep 13 17:17:26 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:17:26 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Voluntary Mandatory Taxes
References: 
		 <39BE2F22.34C4007C@ricardo.de>  <39BF3E56.A2F4F81E@ricardo.de>
Message-ID: <39C01916.2AC5F86C@sunder.net>

Tom Vogt wrote:
> 
> in theory. in real life, consumption does NOT change a tiny bit with
> price changes. there's a (largely theoretical) cut-off point, where
> consumption suddenly drops to or near zero after a certain price, but
> I'm not aware of any events where this actually happened.

Probably the quite near the point where some of the sheeple wake up to the fact that it's a losing situation (i.e. they'll be
bankrupt if they continue supporting their tabacco habit), pick up their weapons and steal said tabacco, or grow their own, etc. 
Not all those who are addicted will give up.  Others will of course give it up cold turkey.

[However, you can look at petrol products in terms of addiction, especially if it's a necessity in getting to work.]


In the US this was of course how the mobs got in power by making and selling alcohol.

-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From 023513090-0002 at t-online.de.=?iso-8859-1?q?  Wed Sep 13 11:17:36 2000
From: 023513090-0002 at t-online.de.=?iso-8859-1?q? (Bj=F6rn?= Ganslandt)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 17:17:36 -0100
Subject: CDR: Re:  Quantum Computing Talk at WPI, 8/12
References:  <35C8C53D.2AE74FF2@mainstream.net>
Message-ID: <200009131817.UAA04926@Ansimorph.org>

Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum computers, if ever built, will be able to factor numbers
> beyond the reach of traditional methods.  The development of quantum
> computation would mean the demise of RSA and other public key
> cryptosystems. We show the main idea of Shor's quantum factoring
> algorithm and assess the complexity of the circuit implementing the
> algorithm. We describe the current state of experimental quantum
> computing and the most promising ideas concerning the implementation
> of quantum logic.
> 
> Classical supercomputers has recently reached the computational power
> of one teraflop (10^12 floating point operations per second). We will
> discuss the current effort to built a petaflops scale computer (peta
> = 10^15) based on the combination of advanced technologies such as
> superconducting digital electronics, cryogenic CMOS, optical
> switches, and holographic memories. Breaking existing ciphers is
> certainly one of the primary applications of this new class of
> computing machines.
> 
> For a Kris Gay's biography please check:
> http://www.ee.rochester.edu/~ee492/bio/bio.html

I think till quantum computers will crack RSA keys in days or less, it will take 
some time, because todays quantum computers have only about 3 Q-bits and 
factoring of a RSA key takes much more.

Bjoern Ganslandt




From 023513090-0002 at t-online.de  Wed Sep 13 11:17:37 2000
From: 023513090-0002 at t-online.de (Bjoern Ganslandt)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 17:17:37 -0100
Subject: CDR: Diffie-Hellman/DSS Cryptoanalysises?
Message-ID: <200009131817.UAA04929@Ansimorph.org>

Are there good cryptoanalysises of the Diffie-Hellman/DSS cipher as implemented 
in PGP 5.x ? (Or other usefull information about it ?)

Bjoern Ganslandt




From whgiii at openpgp.net  Wed Sep 13 14:38:27 2000
From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:38:27 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
In-Reply-To: <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>

In <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892 at melontraffickers.com>, on 09/13/00 
   at 12:59 PM, "A. Melon"  said:

>Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school

>Middle school student arrested in
> poisoning

Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic poisoning?

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III      http://www.openpgp.net  
Geiger Consulting    

Data Security & Cryptology Consulting
Programming, Networking, Analysis
 
PGP for OS/2:               http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
E-Secure:                   http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------





From sunder at sunder.net  Wed Sep 13 17:42:26 2000
From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:42:26 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <39C01EF2.BE316642@sunder.net>


You still haven't put your money where your mouth is.  You claim you've printed out those web pages.  I don't give a rat's ass
either way, however, I did see a challenge there which you've just slithered out of answering.

IMHO, yes, anyone who murders a child should indeed go to jail for the rest of their lives (and the shorter and more painful those
lives are the better.)

However, that said, where on their page did it say that they encouraged killing kids?  (Again, I've never visited, seen, nor care
to, NABLA's site as I disagree with their ideas, lifestyles, etc.)

But one must always distinguish between the right of free speech advocating something, and actually taking action on it.  You are
failing to do that.

It's not about whose son or daughter it was.  Indeed, that was murder and possibly rape, and it should be punished at such.

This is about blaming someone's speech for that crime.  The question is, did that someone, in this case a web site, incite murder
and rape?  You claim you've got the printouts.  Well, please quote from them to prove your point.

Likely you'll come up with some excuse to not do so, or ignore this request, or likely call me a defender of rapists, which I assure
you I am not.  I'd like to be the first in line with a hot iron to plunge in assholes of the rapists/murderers.  

But only if they are found guilty.  Mere accusations, and guilt by association does not make those who only speak, but don't take
actions guilty.  It makes it "thoughtcrime" which is anathema to a free country and basic human rights.


Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> Lizard wrote:
> >
> > Ah, the fascists rise to the bait!
> >
> > Freedom of speech is a moral absolute. The words of NAMBLA are as
> > important, and about as morally sound, as the words of Jodi Hoffman. And,
> > IMO, about as likely to cause a murder.
> 
>         Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> differently.



-- 
----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---------------------------
 + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :aren't security.  A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
<--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :masked killer, but  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often.
--------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Sep 13 14:45:35 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:45:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: <39BFF57A.7A9465A@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

Eric Cordian wrote:

>
> ''I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which
> you were held in custody by the executive branch,'' Parker said.
>
> Parker said the Departments of Justice and Energy ''have embarrassed our
> entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.''
>

     Why, then, did he find Lee guilty of a felony? He could have dismissed the charges, eh?

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS     Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System        Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840  hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us






From alan at clueserver.org  Wed Sep 13 14:49:21 2000
From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 17:49:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
In-Reply-To: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> In <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892 at melontraffickers.com>, on 09/13/00 
>    at 12:59 PM, "A. Melon"  said:
> 
> >Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
> 
> >Middle school student arrested in
> > poisoning
> 
> Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic poisoning?

"Domestic Bioterrorism(tm)" is scarier.  The media has learned a long
time ago that if you frighten people and appeal to the fear/threat portion
of their natures that they will buy more papers, watch your news programs,
and be led by the nose into giving up whatever rights and property
demanded by those in power.

Of course in Congress they think "Domestic Bioterrorism" is the day the
maid serves the chicken sushi with sun-ripened mayonaise for lunch.

alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply
Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
    "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."





From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 15:02:44 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:02:44 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <39BFF57A.7A9465A@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 5:45 PM -0400 9/13/00, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>Eric Cordian wrote:
>
>>
>>  ''I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which
>>  you were held in custody by the executive branch,'' Parker said.
>>
>>  Parker said the Departments of Justice and Energy ''have embarrassed our
>>  entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.''
>>
>
>      Why, then, did he find Lee guilty of a felony? He could have 
>dismissed the charges, eh?

Many things are felonies. I commit between 3 and 5 felonies a month, 
at least that I know of.

In this case, "improperly handling secrets" is a felony. Same kind of 
mishandling that former DOD Secretary William Perry may be charged 
with.

As to why the deal included this single remaining count, the news 
stories are filled with much verbosity on this. Stuff about fig 
leaves, sending messages to other secret holders, etc.

You claim to be a librarian...look it up.

Now, did this particular felony justify 9 months of solitary 
confinement, loss of employment and retirement benefits, and so on? 
And will William Perry and others now face comparable treatments?


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From ernest at luminousnetworks.com  Wed Sep 13 18:11:04 2000
From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:11:04 -0700
Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Why?
Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DB9A@galileo.luminousnetworks.com>

> > I don't believe anyone was forced to house their child in that center.
>
> It doesn't require force
>
> X (official/officer/etc in position of power) decides that a childcare
> facility would make an excellent 'human sheild' in place Y.  X then makes
> arrangements for decent child care facility, tells parents who work at Y
> 'Look. Your children can be near you, you can visit them at lunch time,
> you can drop them off and pick them up on your way in and out of the
> office respectively, and if something happens [in the normal sense -- kid
> falls off monkey bars and breaks arm sort of things] you'll be right
> there'
>
> No force necessary. Parents think they have a good deal. X thinks he has a
> good deal. Kids are up shit creek if anything actually goes down.
>
> And no, I'm not arguing this did, has or is happening. I'm not in a
> position to have data on that. I'm arguing that, contrary to what you
> said, it *is* a viable possibility.

No it's not a viable possibility except for those who see conspiratorial
agents around every corner.  Try running a large organization some time
and you will see just what kind of stupid shit you have to deal with.

You may well turn into one of those evil union-busting executives.  There
are a lot of incentive issues to deal with as well as contractual issues
if you are working with unioned employees.  Are you suggesting that the
unions may have been complicit in putting a daycare there?

This is total horse shit, and it is definitely NOT viable.

This sort of suggestion really makes this list look like it's inhabitted by
a bunch of loonies.  It's your right to suggest any shit you want, but it's
way out in left field.

Ern
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 2819 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Wed Sep 13 11:15:55 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: 13 Sep 2000 18:15:55 -0000
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its head
Message-ID: <0K9DO5EO36782.5943865741@anonymous.poster>

>WASHINGTON (AP) - Sen. Joe Lieberman decried a
>"culture of carnage" surrounding Americas young

So what is the end game of the violence monopoly ?

To be able to blow the brains out of domestic sheeple
(and, for sport, the faraway tribes) the state must
have trained killers (cops, fedz, army.)

If they are bred in somatized environment they will not
be good at it (ie. blowing the brains out ...) So either
we are going to see special camps that will take care of
piglet education, or they will have to import foreign-trained
carnivoras.

It is funny - society of Morlocks and Eloi, but with the
twist: Eloi are both stupid and ugly.






From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep 13 15:17:26 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:17:26 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net> 
Message-ID: <39BFFCDD.5659358B@acmenet.net>

Tim May wrote:
...
> Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant
> salary and retirement benefits.
> 
> This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary
> William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss
> of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his
> home computer and leaving codeword material where his family,
> housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.

For once, I am even harsher than Tim, or at least what Tim wrote.

FBI and other agents admitted to making "misleading" statements in
their arguments to keep Mr Lee in jail. Every goverment employee
involved in "misleading" statements, pressure on Lee's family and
friends, and supression of exculpatory evidence should be immediately
jailed and held in solitary confinement for some multiple of the time
Lee was held.

Those who would monitor and control our behaviour should be held to
higher standards than those they would control.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From ravage at ssz.com  Wed Sep 13 16:18:05 2000
From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:18:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Phaedrus wrote:

> Sheeple, who don't think defensively. Even for their kids
> 
> oh, don't get me wrong, a convicted child molester moving into town, or
> maybe an 'obscene' website, they'll scream about -- but they don't think
> about real danger

So your claim is that when the FBI, BATF, etc. moved into that building
not a single one of them actualy executed on the required threat plan? And
during the execution of that plan nobody noticed the child care center or
considered the impact of an attack on them?

Not bloody likely.

It might be interesting to look at the results, doubt you can get them
from FOIA.

> > Their own kids? That level of cold blooded-ness is probably unrealistic.
> 
> This would probably have not been a decision made by the parents of the
> kids in question. Most sheeple aren't that intelligent or cold-blooded.

I don't believe anyone was forced to house their child in that center.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------





From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org  Wed Sep 13 11:35:18 2000
From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:35:18 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Jim Choate wrote:

> So your claim is that when the FBI, BATF, etc. moved into that building
> not a single one of them actualy executed on the required threat plan? And
> during the execution of that plan nobody noticed the child care center or
> considered the impact of an attack on them?

I didn't say that the FBI, BATF or anyone else has (during the OK city
bombing or at any time) actually used such a facility as a human sheild. I
was pointing out that it was possible, that parents could easily be
shepherded into using such a facility for child care and that the
cold-bloodedness possible certainly does exist, just not in the parents of
the children (who are/were/would be ignorant of such uses of the very
convenient on site child care)

> I don't believe anyone was forced to house their child in that center.

It doesn't require force

X (official/officer/etc in position of power) decides that a childcare
facility would make an excellent 'human sheild' in place Y.  X then makes
arrangements for decent child care facility, tells parents who work at Y
'Look. Your children can be near you, you can visit them at lunch time,
you can drop them off and pick them up on your way in and out of the
office respectively, and if something happens [in the normal sense -- kid
falls off monkey bars and breaks arm sort of things] you'll be right
there'

No force necessary. Parents think they have a good deal. X thinks he has a
good deal. Kids are up shit creek if anything actually goes down.

And no, I'm not arguing this did, has or is happening. I'm not in a
position to have data on that. I'm arguing that, contrary to what you
said, it *is* a viable possibility.


Ph.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 15:44:09 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:44:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <39BFFCDD.5659358B@acmenet.net>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 6:17 PM -0400 9/13/00, Steven Furlong wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>...
>>  Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant
>>  salary and retirement benefits.
>>
>>  This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary
>>  William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss
>>  of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his
>>  home computer and leaving codeword material where his family,
>>  housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.
>
>For once, I am even harsher than Tim, or at least what Tim wrote.
>
>FBI and other agents admitted to making "misleading" statements in
>their arguments to keep Mr Lee in jail. Every goverment employee
>involved in "misleading" statements, pressure on Lee's family and
>friends, and supression of exculpatory evidence should be immediately
>jailed and held in solitary confinement for some multiple of the time
>Lee was held.
>
>Those who would monitor and control our behaviour should be held to
>higher standards than those they would control.

Maybe harsher than what I wrote above, but, as you allude to, not 
necessarily harsher than what I think.

Fact is, government criminals are almost never held accountable for 
their crimes. Order the killings of innocents...get a transfer and 
promotion. Write assassination manuals for third world police 
forces...get a medal. Illegally use FBI files to attack one's 
political opponents...be told not to do it again. Shoot an unarmed 
man 31 times in a hail of gunfire...be found innocent.

And the gubment types and their court lackeys have written things so 
that "suing the government" is nearly impossible.

Meanwhile, "double jeopardy" is being rolled-back on almost a daily 
basis. Prosecutors are congratulating themselves when they find 
loopholes and new laws which allow them to "take a second bite of the 
apple."

Fucking creeps.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From None at toad.com  Wed Sep 13 18:48:51 2000
From: None at toad.com (Casharvest)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:48:51
Subject: CDR: Become our next $10,000 winner!
Message-ID: <200009132355.QAA22570@toad.com>

Casharvest.com is offering the best giveaway deal on the net!  
You could be the next $10,000 weekly winner.  Or you may be our next instant
winner of $100.  

Not only can you win the Casharvest Lottery, but we'll even help you register
for 5 of the top free lottery sites on the net!

We're still growing, so now is the time to get your gamecard filled out.  
With an average of only 500 visitors a day, your odds of winning are the 
best on the internet.  

Quit thinking about it and just enter:

http://www.casharvest.com 




From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Wed Sep 13 15:49:11 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:49:11 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net> 
Message-ID: <39C0027C.420F71D9@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

Tim May wrote:

>
> As to why the deal included this single remaining count, the news
> stories are filled with much verbosity on this. Stuff about fig
> leaves, sending messages to other secret holders, etc.
>
> You claim to be a librarian...look it up.
>

        The question was rhetorical, Tim. I followed all the news reports, etc.
It's bullshit -- Lee gets totally screwed, since the files he downloaded
weren't (or so the news story goes) even classified material when he downloaded
them, only later to cover the government's ass.  My question remains - if the
judge really felt he was getting screwed, all he had to do was dismiss the
case.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS     Systems Librarian
Arrowhead Library System        Virginia, MN
(218) 741-3840  hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us  http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us






From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 16:02:35 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:02:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <39C0027C.420F71D9@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 6:49 PM -0400 9/13/00, Harmon Seaver wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>
>>
>>  As to why the deal included this single remaining count, the news
>>  stories are filled with much verbosity on this. Stuff about fig
>>  leaves, sending messages to other secret holders, etc.
>>
>>  You claim to be a librarian...look it up.
>>
>
>         The question was rhetorical, Tim. I followed all the news 
>reports, etc.
>It's bullshit -- Lee gets totally screwed, since the files he downloaded
>weren't (or so the news story goes) even classified material when he 
>downloaded
>them, only later to cover the government's ass.  My question remains - if the
>judge really felt he was getting screwed, all he had to do was dismiss the
>case.

They rarely just dismiss a case...that redounds negatively on the 
government's side (and the judge would not be paranoid in thinking 
that one of the many covert ops ninjas might make a car bomb 
mysteriously appear under his seat one fine morning).

Lee had no power. He was being held in solitary confinement, in 
shackles at times. The government held all the cards, though there 
hand was falling apart as time passed. They wrote the plea agreement, 
Lee signed it, the judge then accepted it.

Again, this was all covered ad nauseum in the articles.


--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Sep 13 19:36:27 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:36:27 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913193627.0394b4b0@mrlizard.com>

At 10:40 PM 9/13/00 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: 

The company is claiming breach of franchise agreement by franchisees who
are supposedly  saying unkind things about it.  It is also claiming that
the domain names newworldcoffefraud.com and newworldfraud.com are likely to
confuse innocent surfers looking for coffee.
=======
Why, yes! When I want to look at the wares of company "X", I often go to
www.companyxsucks.com, or www.companyxripoff.com!

Any judge who buys that line of reasoning should be impeached, on the
grounds our Founding Fathers did not intend that the judiciary be populated
by fungus.




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 20:03:23 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:03:23 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com>
Message-ID: 

At 10:40 PM -0400 9/13/00, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>
>The defendants have no lawyers and are proceeding in pro se.  The 
>sites may be gone Friday night if the judge rules against them.
>

More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that this is the real 
crime: not hiring lawyers.


--Tim May

-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org  Wed Sep 13 14:10:23 2000
From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:10:23 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DB9A@galileo.luminousnetworks.com>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Ernest Hua wrote:

> No it's not a viable possibility except for those who see conspiratorial
> agents around every corner.  Try running a large organization some time
> and you will see just what kind of stupid shit you have to deal with.

Hrm. Perhaps I should rephrase -- it's not not-viable because people
aren't so cold blooded that they'd use their own children as a sheild,
because the people in question can use other people's children, instead. 

And thanks, running a 7 sysadmin department was quite enough for me. I
already know humans are stupid.

I'm not completely sure, however, that the difficulties of getting things
done in large organizations kills the possibility of putting child care
centers in places that are likely terrorist targets as human sheilds. It
strikes me as a rather hard thing to argue either way -- organizations
vary as much as individuals do, in my experience.

> if you are working with unioned employees.  Are you suggesting that the
> unions may have been complicit in putting a daycare there?

Well, I suppose if a bunch of unionized employees there wanted a daycare,
this could be the case -- I think it would be doubtful that the union
would want a daycare for human shield purposes...maybe I'm
misunderstanding you, though...

> This sort of suggestion really makes this list look like it's inhabitted by
> a bunch of loonies.  It's your right to suggest any shit you want, but it's
> way out in left field.

You mean, you haven't noticed that this list *is* inhabited by a bunch of
loonies. Largely because insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane
world, I suspect.

You know, other than a somewhat vague 'try running a large organization
sometime' you never did explain why it wasn't viable.


Ph.(still not saying it is or was going on, just arguing the
possibility..hmmph, I need [another] hobby or something)




From owner-cypherpunks at toad.com  Wed Sep 13 18:30:52 2000
From: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com (owner-cypherpunks at toad.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:30:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: Congratulations , on your $25.00 USD win!
Message-ID: <200009140123.SAA29073@toad.com>

 you are a winner !!!

Your email was randomly selected from our opt-in lists and you won $25.00 USD
in real casino chips from Click1000000 Casino. Why are they giving away money you ask? 
Simple...they want you to discover what 1,000's of other people just like you 
already know...online gambling at Click1000000 Casino is fast-paced, interactive and a 
whole lot of fun.

But that's not all, they are also giving away fabulous instaprizes and bonuses
during the download. So don't wait. Click on the link below to collect your 
$25.00 prize now.


          http://www.click1000000.com/100000/collect.htm



******************************************************************************
Delivered by Segasolution to referrals and opt-ins only. All remove requests
are honored. All players must be 18 years and over. Bonus dollars are only
available to credit card depositors. Click1000000 Casino guarantees minimum wins. 
Good luck!

******************************************************************************

                                 Remove
                      mailto:unsubscribe_me at china.com




From foryou2day at themail.com  Wed Sep 13 21:31:24 2000
From: foryou2day at themail.com (your success)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:31:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Hello,Interesting ad-please read
Message-ID: <419.436782.98101887foryou2day@themail.com>

Hello,
I saw your ad in the buisness opps. section and thought i would tell you about
something exciting and new that will increase your advertising exposure 10 fold.
I have found an interesting booklet that explains to you how to target the 
newcomers to the internet marketing world,sound crazy,Hundreds of 
thousands of newcomers come online every month hungry to succeed in internet 
marketing.
Its interesting to know where all these newcomers "hang out"

This booklet is FREE and will show you how to send information to newcomers 
who are eager for help and prosperous buisness opportunities.

This is no joke,people making thousands a month using this formula and it does 
work.
How hard do you think it would be to sell to someone new to the biz and hungry 
for help--they will welcome what you have to say/offer with open arms.

If you would like to download a free copy of this book just reply with 
"free booklet"in the subject field.

This is a major breakthrough in targeted internet advertising!!!

Please dont pass up this free offer ,it will dramatically change the way you do 
business every day.

Thank you
The success team



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
*note*Im replying to your ad that i read in the classified ads,You are not on any list and 
you wont 
recieve any future mailings unless you request the free booklet.
****************************************************************************************************
***************




From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Wed Sep 13 19:33:14 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:33:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Phaedrus wrote:

> I didn't say that the FBI, BATF or anyone else has (during the OK city
> bombing or at any time) actually used such a facility as a human sheild. I
> was pointing out that it was possible,

Not without breaking the security standards. 'Human shield' scenario's are
one of the standard ones. The usual goal is to deprive an attacker of such
resources.

> that parents could easily be shepherded

You had shitty parents growing up if you think most parents are like this.

> And no, I'm not arguing this did, has or is happening. I'm not in a
> position to have data on that. I'm arguing that, contrary to what you
> said, it *is* a viable possibility.

If it were up to a single person, those sorts of thing aren't decided by
individuals (just for that sort of reason). You should contact your local
LEA and discuss with them the sorts of security studies they undertake
(especialy when considering headquarters locations).

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From petro at bounty.org  Wed Sep 13 21:40:03 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:40:03 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
 
Message-ID: 

Mr. May:

>At 4:57 PM -0400 9/13/00, Omri Schwarz wrote:
>>
>>Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
>>by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
>>with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)
>
>This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
>near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
>backfire.
>
>I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
>backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
>money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
>compound she hated so much.

	Not commenting on anything but the backfire thing:

	I've had several cars over the last since 1983 (when I 
started driving) that backfired at one time or another for various 
reasons--usually relating either to spark plugs not firing properly 
(broken plugs, wires, bad distributer wires going to the wrong plugs 
etc), vacuum problems, or just plain being a rolling disaster.

	It's *possible*.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From petro at bounty.org  Wed Sep 13 21:44:20 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 21:44:20 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <200009132204.RAA61026@chao.insync.net>
References: <200009132204.RAA61026@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

>Jodi Hoffman  writes:
>
>>  I knew there was a reason I printed out NAMBLA's website
>>  throughout the years.
>
>So you can lie about what's in it cleverly enough not to get caught?
>
>You *are* the same Jodi Hoffman who claims Sex Education is Satan's
>Doorway to our Childrens' Innocence, ... and nuisance to public educators
>everywhere?

	At least she does something useful.

-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From lizard at mrlizard.com  Wed Sep 13 22:16:25 2000
From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:16:25 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
 <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
 <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913221625.0396a300@mrlizard.com>

At 12:57 AM 9/14/00 -0400, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
>Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
>referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
>boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
>intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
>
Ohio vs. Brandenburg. Get it through your skull.

Advocacy of criminal acts is protected speech. Period. It doesn't matter
how vile the concept is. 

One of the cornerstones of a free society is that the laws reflect the will
of the people -- within certain limits -- and that ANYONE, no matter how
radical or depraved, is free to try to convince the people of the rightness
of his views. Whether these views advocate banning abortions, reinstating
slavery, exterminating Jews, or killing baby seals is *irrelevent*. He is
free to discuss them and, if anyone should offer violence against him for
the content of his ideas, the State is morally obliged to protect him and
punish the offender, no matter how much the ideas offend, shock, or disturb.

There is no room for compromise on this. None at all. Freedom of speech is
for EVERYONE, for EVERY idea, or else it is meaningless.

I cannot speak for Jay, but lest there be any doubt of *my* stance, I
believe a site advocating the bloody ritual murder of 1 day old infants in
disgustingly gruesome fashion, coupled with vile and perverse sexual acts
involving corpses, sheep, and watermelons, while giving heroin to 3 year
old girls, is protected speech -- so long as the site does not cross from
advocacy to incitement. Anyone *committing* such acts deserves a quick trip
to "Old Sparky", but that does not limit the right to TALK about such acts
at all.

Hell, Jodi, I even think YOUR site is protected speech.




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Wed Sep 13 19:18:48 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:18:48 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c01df2$1e55bb40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

Jodi wrote (with the help of the GOP):

Oh, please! Anal sex with an eight year old child! 
Is not violent?

        Phill

PS I know the irony will be lost on her.




From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Wed Sep 13 19:21:08 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:21:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <003201c01df2$71f2c2c0$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

Jodi wrote

> Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First 
> Amendment, Liz.  

OK, I'll bite, which altar do you want your child sacrificing on?




From tcmay at got.net  Wed Sep 13 22:22:59 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:22:59 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

At 12:57 AM -0400 9/14/00, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay. 
>Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
>referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
>boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
>intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?

Of course it should be protected speech. As are Web sites promoting 
the growing and processing of marijuana and opium, Web sites 
promoting the killing of those who need killing, Web sites promoting 
espionage, draft dodging, and terrorism.

While the _activities_ being promoted or advocate may (or may not) be 
illegal, talking about them and advocating them is a *speech act*.

Cf. the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From frissell at panix.com  Wed Sep 13 19:40:28 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:40:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com>

New World Coffee a NJ-based coffee and bagel (it bought Manhattan Bagels a 
while back) franchise company is seeking a TRO in New Jersey state court on 
Friday to try and shut down two disparagement sites.

www.NewWorldCoffeeFraud.com

www.NewWorldFraud.com

The company is claiming breach of franchise agreement by franchisees who 
are supposedly  saying unkind things about it.  It is also claiming that 
the domain names newworldcoffefraud.com and newworldfraud.com are likely to 
confuse innocent surfers looking for coffee.

The sites claim that NWC is guilty of fraud in selling franchises and lack 
of support for franchisees once they buy in.

The defendants have no lawyers and are proceeding in pro se.  The sites may 
be gone Friday night if the judge rules against them.

Get them while they're hot.

DCF
----
"They believe that the Government is the problem and that what everyone 
needs is to be told, 'You're on your own; go out there into the tender 
mercies of the global economy; have a great time in cyberspace, and we'll 
get out of your way.'" -- William Jefferson Blythe Clinton in a speech to 
the AFSCME in Chicago June 21, 1996.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 1565 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From sfurlong at acmenet.net  Wed Sep 13 19:51:23 2000
From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:51:23 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
References: <3.0.5.32.20000913193627.0394b4b0@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <39C03D15.50327C9A@acmenet.net>

Lizard wrote:
> 
> At 10:40 PM 9/13/00 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
> 
> The company is claiming breach of franchise agreement by franchisees who
> are supposedly  saying unkind things about it.  It is also claiming that
> the domain names newworldcoffefraud.com and newworldfraud.com are likely to
> confuse innocent surfers looking for coffee.
> =======
> Why, yes! When I want to look at the wares of company "X", I often go to
> www.companyxsucks.com, or www.companyxripoff.com!
> 
> Any judge who buys that line of reasoning should be impeached, on the
> grounds our Founding Fathers did not intend that the judiciary be populated
> by fungus.

Now, now, not every judge who commits fatuum judicium is incompetent.
Some are corrupt.

-- 
Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere     Have GNU, will travel
   518-374-4720     sfurlong at acmenet.net





From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 19:58:05 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:58:05 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: [OT] California senator tries to mandate remote kill
In-Reply-To: <39BE8C46.BABDF497@lsil.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913192718.00913d20@pop.sprynet.com>

At 04:01 PM 9/12/00 -0400, Michael Motyka wrote:
>
>Anyway, I'd like to see some details about that Halt disease so that
>when my car catches it the vaccine development is already well underway.
>

Spoof it on some Important Government Official who is driving 80 in the
fast lane,
and we'll see.








From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 19:58:30 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:58:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Abortion Assasination Politics likely going to Supremes
In-Reply-To: <006d01c01cf6$61ee3eb0$4801a8c0@Microbilt.com>
References: <0fbaa27cee1277f5c4941003534099bd@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913193422.00910ba0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 04:19 PM 9/12/00 -0400, Marcel Popescu wrote:
>More stuff for Freenet, it seems. I'm really curious how "they" would
>consider handling such documents instead MP3s - better or worse?
>

Heh.  How about someone reading names & addresses of
judges/physicians/whatever
in an MP3, and circulating that?

[Posting an .mp3 of someone reading DeCSS source will get you ejected from
MP3.com
for "indecent" lyrics.  I don't make this stuff up.]








From root at mail5.burlee.com  Wed Sep 13 15:05:55 2000
From: root at mail5.burlee.com (lists)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000  23:05:55 +0100
Subject: CDR: Try this Today
Message-ID: <200009131848796.SM00199@mail5.burlee.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 740 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From weboutfitter_service at intel.com  Wed Sep 13 16:16:34 2000
From: weboutfitter_service at intel.com (Intel WebOutfitter Service (R SM))
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:16:34 +0000
Subject: CDR: Your password
Message-ID: <200009132317.QAA21619@toad.com>

Dear Cypher,
Here is your password that was requested from the Intel(R) WebOutfitter(SM) Service web site.
Password: no_password
Reminder: 




From weboutfitter_service at intel.com  Wed Sep 13 16:16:40 2000
From: weboutfitter_service at intel.com (Intel WebOutfitter Service (R SM))
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:16:40 +0000
Subject: CDR: Your password
Message-ID: <200009132317.QAA21625@toad.com>

Dear Cypher,
Here is your password that was requested from the Intel(R) WebOutfitter(SM) Service web site.
Password: no_password
Reminder: 




From weboutfitter_service at intel.com  Wed Sep 13 16:16:42 2000
From: weboutfitter_service at intel.com (Intel WebOutfitter Service (R SM))
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:16:42 +0000
Subject: CDR: Your password
Message-ID: <200009132317.QAA21630@toad.com>

Dear Cypher,
Here is your password that was requested from the Intel(R) WebOutfitter(SM) Service web site.
Password: no_password
Reminder: 




From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 20:32:53 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:32:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Is kerberos broken? cpunk
In-Reply-To: 

At 11:06 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
>Here's an example of a good passphrase:
>
>"David grossly underestimates the ability of homo sapiens to memorize
>and exactly reproduce long texts. An examination of American 
>high school students ability to perform the Gettysburg Address is a
>good counterexample."
>
>222 bytes, more or less. Even if we assume only 1bit of entropy per
>character (it's ordinary english), that's a pretty tough space to search.
>It's a safe bet that those two sentences have never been placed
>together in all of human history before now, so there's no dictionary
>to check.
>
>The problem is not that passphrases *can't* be made secure -
>the problem is that most people are unwilling to use good ones. 
>
>Peter Trei

Well I'm flattered :-) and impressed.   I would be more impressed if
e.g., you actually used such an entropic phrase, in real life.  Of course,
we don't
expect you reveal the actual length of your 'phrase.

I think you have convinced me, reinforcing something I've learned and
propogated: convenience over security.  You have also reinforced something
that fits with what I know of cog sci, and which gets to the limits of H.
sapiens: you can only remember large things if they're structured
'meaningfully'.  Kasparov can't remember *random* chessboards better than
you, only real ones.

DH, CSEE & Cog Sci '86













From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 20:32:54 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:32:54 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913202710.00902420@pop.sprynet.com>

At 11:05 AM 9/13/00 -0400, No User wrote:
>Ray said:
>
>> Mcveigh, as he is, is just a random crazy.  But if, say, one 
>> out of ten American Citizens or so had looked up from the news 
>> story and gone, "It's about time somebody started fighting those 
>> bastards" then he'd have a constituency to whom he could be a 
>> freedom fighter.  And also a nonzero chance of causing real 
>> change.   
>
>    And just what is it that makes you think that "one out of ten" 
>didn't secretly cheer that news? Or maybe more? And even if it were
>only "one out a thousand", isn't that a significant number? Even in
>the First American Revolution, not that many actually took up arms.
>Many were totally against it, and fought for the Brits. If one in
>a thousand took up arms today against the fedz, wouldn't that out-
>number the US military?
>

Even worse, it makes morality a function of pollsters.








From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 20:56:43 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 23:56:43 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913205056.0090d8d0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:14 PM 9/13/00 -0400, Tim May wrote:
>At 4:57 PM -0400 9/13/00, Omri Schwarz wrote:
>>
>>Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
>>by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
>>with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)
>
>This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
>near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
>backfire.
>
>I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
>backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
>money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
>compound she hated so much.

Your internal combustion experience is of little relevence here.

The law is wrong for pinning a rabid security force's wrongs on their
employer.
That is simple deep-pocket mining like the tobacco suits.  

However, Tim is being unjustifiably condemning of citizens with old cars,
methinks.  Even having
an agenda to provoke the brownshirts by slowly driving by does not justify
violence.  Again,
violence is the responsibility of the perpetrators, not their bosses, or
the authors of words
they read.  

Frankly, thinking critically, the backfire defence sounds like
straw-grasping, esp.
given no firearms found on the victims.  One hopes that TM does not
discharge his artillery
towards misfiring vehicles passing his terrain on public roads.

Again: its wrong to bust the smalldicked neonazis for the actions of their
'security force',
its wrong of them to assault passers-by for impulsive noises.



.....
19. Never try to baptize a cat













From honig at sprynet.com  Wed Sep 13 21:10:02 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:10:02 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
In-Reply-To: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>
References: <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913205426.008ec4d0@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:38 PM 9/13/00 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>In <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892 at melontraffickers.com>, on 09/13/00 
>   at 12:59 PM, "A. Melon"  said:
>
>>Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
>
>>Middle school student arrested in
>> poisoning
>
>Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic
poisoning?

I'd imagine (s)he's applying the same standards as sneezing over a salad bar
or licking doorknobs..








From baptista at pccf.net  Wed Sep 13 21:38:54 2000
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:38:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <002c01c01df2$1e55bb40$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

> Jodi wrote (with the help of the GOP):
> 
> Oh, please! Anal sex with an eight year old child! 
> Is not violent?

What about two 8 year olds giving it to each other up the wazoo.  Would
you consider that violent?

Should we send those kids to jail - or maybe execute the parents?

Up in my village the kids start young.  We had a vibrant community - but
all the jobs have gone and what we have left are kids as young as 8
shooting themselves up with heroin.  The average age they start is at 10
to 14 and most of them make their money off the sex trade.  Their
collective goal seems oriented at getting high and staying high.  All sex
means to them is a means to an end.  Even money is of little significance,
the main goal is getting and staying high.

Now, the one thing that really makes me sick to my stomach is the constant
jibberish I hear from people who constantly harp on about saving the
pretty little children - meanwhile I have heroin addicts as young as 8
banging each other in the park just down the street.  For all the
allegator tears I see here and elsewhere - I never see anything of value
result from it.  Could you save the 8 years olds who are banging each
other in my park?  I have no idea what they need - i'll be frank with you
there - but they need a new life, what they have now is shit.

I've noticed people will spend more time trying to silence groups like
namble instead of solving the root problem.  Kids these days are in
serious trouble.  People like those in namble are only taking advantage of
a preexiting situation.  In my town kids are easy to get into bed if you
have the right qualifications.  And unfortunately those qualifications are
not very high.  Most of these kids are from families who lost their lively
hood when the jobs flew.  If you can keep them high - you qualify.

A good example is in fact found in our town.  I call him the "morphine
nipple".  He's an old crippled man, dying of cancer, and as drunk as a
skunk.  You can always find an assortment of boys and girls hanging around
his place.  And the kids goals are basically - how much morphine can we
squeeze out of the morphine nipple.  So the boys drop their drawers and
expose their dinkys and the girls expose their twinkies and the ol
morphine nipple gets milked.

Kid's these days are pigs and any fault to be found I suggest is with
their parents.

Forget the whole concept of childhood - that's a fiction
long gone.  Based on my experience I think I'm the last person on this
planet who actually had a great childhood - and I was innocent
too.  That's rare these days.  And in my opinion an unfortunate
observation and my advantage.

regards
Joe Baptista

                                        http://www.dot.god/
                                        http://www.dot-god.com/
                                        dot.GOD Hostmaster






From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Wed Sep 13 21:57:09 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:57:09 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>

You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?

Jay Holovacs wrote:
> 
> You miss the point...  I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
> That is immaterial.
> 
> I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
> speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
> responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.
> 
> jay
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jodi Hoffman 
> To: Jay Holovacs 
> Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
> ; 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
> Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> 
> > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > >
> > > You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
> the
> > > same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> > > advocate violence to children)
> >
> >
> > Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> > > protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> > > murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> > >
> > > jay
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > To: Lizard 
> > > Cc: Declan McCullagh ;
> ;
> > > 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > > >
> > > > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > > > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > > > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > > > differently.
> >
> > --
> > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
> >
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> >

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From petro at bounty.org  Thu Sep 14 00:59:17 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:59:17 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

>You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
>Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
>referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
>boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
>intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?

	Prove it.

	Produce the documentation that makes that claim.

	Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or 
have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government 
of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? 
Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let 
history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep 14 01:36:03 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:36:03 -0700
Subject: CDR: Aryan Nations incident - Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was
  controversial?
In-Reply-To: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000914013603.008fbe70@idiom.com>

>> In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those 
>> who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an 
>> example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" 
>> doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty 
>> Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like.

It's not a "deep pockets" thing, it's a "shallow pockets" thing.
Deep pockets cases are where you want the money, so you drag somebody
with lots of money into the case if you can.  In this case,
and Morris Dee's previous KKK case, the objective isn't *getting* money -
it's *taking away* all the money the bastards have to put them out of
business,
and then twisting the knife and rubbing salt in the wounds by
using their former Bad White Boys playground for something they dislike.

If they had deep pockets, this would be hard.  
But soft targets like the AN or KKK chapter don't have a lot of money,
so a lawsuit for shooting at people or beating them up can be enough
to bankrupt them, even if all you get is a couple of double-wides
on a hunk of scrubby land.  Also, they're less likely to have
good legal representation (at least these days - in the KKK's heyday
the town judge and lawyers might well have been members),
so they're easier to beat.

Also, this is rural Idaho - stunningly gorgeous country, where the
traditional way to relate to the wildlife involves firearms,
so even if she *had* been shooting her gun it'd've been pretty normal.
The newspaper reports didn't say whether the real bright Aryan boys
decided gunshots must have been an invading Jew army before
they saw that the car was full of white people, or whether they
at least looked at them enough to decide they weren't blacks or cops...


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639




From lauren32 at jahoopa.com  Thu Sep 14 01:56:59 2000
From: lauren32 at jahoopa.com (lauren32)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 01:56:59 -0700
Subject: CDR: Hey!!
Message-ID: <200009141655.JAA29124@concord.televar.com>


You are currently listed as: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net 

This is sent to my Priority List .. I saved your 
email address from our past correspondence.  If 
you are no longer interested in interchanging 
informations, please accept my sincere apology 
and reply with "Remove".

=========================

CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION??

Are You Tired of Surfing the Net, Looking for an Online
Business, and
Never Getting Anywhere?

WHAT IF

There was a way.

http://www.prohelpyou-online.com/16.html


_______________________

To remove, hit reply and type "remove" at subject.















































































































































































































From unsubs-OXNPMEMBERSHIP0913NON1c-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.nbci.com  Wed Sep 13 19:06:21 2000
From: unsubs-OXNPMEMBERSHIP0913NON1c-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.nbci.com (Snap.com/NBCi)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:06:21 GMT
Subject: CDR: What? No more Snap.com?
Message-ID: 

*********************************************************
Note: This is a special one-time mailing for Snap.com.
You have not been automatically subscribed to any additional 
newsletters. 
*********************************************************

Dear Snap Member,

We're excited to let you know that Snap.com is being enhanced and renamed 
to provide everything you need on the Web in one fantastic new site 
NBCi.com.  A beta test version of the site is already up and running, and 
we'll continue to improve and fine-tune our services in the coming weeks 
and months.

Check out http://orders.nbci.com/nbcis0913h
To create NBCi.com, we have taken the best features from Snap.com, 
combined them with the best features from our sister site XOOM.com and 
added hot information & entertainment content from NBC.  

How does this affect you?


If you have personalized services under MySnap  (stock portfolio, 
horoscope, weather, etc), all of your information is still available via 
the same member name and password.  This area is now called MyNBCi.

Go to My NBCi 
http://orders.nbci.com/mynbci0913
Some of NBCi's offerings will be new, and you'll see them rolling out in 
the weeks and months ahead.  However, we'll still offer our best-known 
services and continue to improve upon them.

What you will find on NBCi:

*	Fresh and relevant information on the subjects that interest 
	you most:  News, Personal Finance, Travel, Shopping, Health, 
	Technology, Entertainment and more!
*	The most relevant search results on the Web 
	http://orders.nbci.com/searchandfinds0913
*	Free e-mail account  http://orders.nbci.com/emails0913
*	Current local information, so you know what's happening around 
	you http://orders.nbci.com/localinformations0913
*	Personalized services: calendar, address book and more! 
	http://orders.nbci.com/calendars0913
*	Access to more Software Downloads 
	http://orders.nbci.com/downloadss0913

We want to make NBCi your trusted agent on the Web A personalizable Web 
site that gives you WHAT your want WHEN you want it!

We value your opinion and would like to hear from you.  Please give us 
your feedback on our new service. 

Tell us what you think 
http://orders.nbci.com/youropinions0913

Can't find what you're looking for?
http://orders.nbci.com/troublex0913

Sincerely,

NBCi
http://orders.nbci.com/nbcis0913h


This email was sent to: cypherpunks at toad.com


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, reply to this email with the word UNSUBSCRIBE
as the FIRST word in your reply.

 ***
 Please allow 3 to 5 business days for your unsubscribe request
 to take effect.
 ***

Or mailto:unsubs-OXNPMEMBERSHIP0913NON1c-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.nbci.com
with the word UNSUBSCRIBE as the FIRST word in your reply.

For more information about Snap.com/NBCi or your Snap.com/NBCi membership,
visit:
http://www.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,-487,00.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Snap.com is a trademark of Snap.com, Inc., other names are those of
their respective holders. (C) 2000 Snap.com, Inc. and its licensors.
Copyright (C) 1997-2000 NBC Internet, Inc. and its content providers.
All rights reserved.
http://edition.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,home-2958,00.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------




From ulf at fitug.de  Wed Sep 13 23:09:10 2000
From: ulf at fitug.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ulf_M=F6ller?=)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:09:10 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39BFB711.6C6150E1@acmenet.net>; from sfurlong@acmenet.net on Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:19:38PM -0400
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>  <39BFB711.6C6150E1@acmenet.net>
Message-ID: <20000914001556.A714@rho.invalid>

On Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:19:38PM -0400, Steven Furlong wrote:

> and nonsensical lawsuits. In the other, on page 3 yet, the authors
> argue that if someone is injured such that he can no longer work,
> _someone_ should be held financially liable because society has lost
> the first person's wages [2]. That seems just half a step from saying
> that the people are the property of the state.

David Friedman argues that if someone is injured, "someone" should be
held financially liable - not because society has lost something, but
because of economic efficiency.  Here's an excerpt from his book Law's
Order:

                                     I take actions that may impose costs
   on others-drive a car, shoot a rifle, blow up rocks with dynamite. The
   size and likelihood of those costs depend on what precautions I take.
   How can we use tort law to give me an incentive to take those
   precautions that are worth taking, and only those?

   Our objective is not to eliminate the risks entirely-we could do that
   by banning cars, rifles, and dynamite. Our objective is to get the
   efficient level of precautions, and thus the efficient level of risk.
   We want a world where I get my brakes checked one more time if, and
   only if, doing so reduces expected accident costs by at least as much
   as it costs. We want a world where I break up rock with dynamite
   instead of a sledge hammer if and only if the savings in cost to me at
   least makes up for the increased risk to my neighbors. What we want is
   not a world of no accidents-that costs more than it is worth-but a
   world with only efficient accidents, only those accidents that cost
   more to prevent than preventing them is worth. We want the world we
   would have if everyone took all and only cost-justified precautions.

   To simplify things, I start with the simplest case-unicausal
   accidents. I am engaged in an activity, flying a small airplane, which
   has some chance of injuring other people's persons and property. The
   probability of such injury depends on what precautions I take but not
   on what precautions they take. There is nothing other people can do,
   short of armoring their roofs with several feet of reinforced
   concrete, a precaution we are confident is not worth the cost, to
   protect themselves against the risk that I might crash my plane into
   their houses. [...]

http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Laws_Order_draft/laws_order_ToC.htm





From baptista at pccf.net  Wed Sep 13 23:09:58 2000
From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 02:09:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

People don't seem to understand what free speech is all about.  You might
be interested in knowing Jodi that Hitlers Germany had one of the most
progressive free speech policies in the world.  You could say whatever you
wanted to say, provided it was authorized by the state.

I don't support free speech because it's the fashionable thing to
do.  Free speech is the basic right of all.  The content of that right is
irrelevant.

Now - you spending alot of time on the sex angle here.  I don't think you
understand what freedom of speech means.  If I were to tell you that I had
personal knowledge of the rape by canadian politicians and senior
bureacrats of young boys from fort lauderdale during the 60, 70, 80's -
and that these rapes and further investigation of those who abuse these
children is being intentionally suppressed by senior police officers and
law officers in Canada - how would you react to this?

Now here's the kicker.  I have all of that knowledge and I am prevented by
court order from exposing any of these people.  You can thank Judge
William Browne of the Ontario Court for that.

It's people like you who are willing to deny others rights who end up
taking away my rights to expose these political child molesters.

Would you like to follow up with the investigating officer in fort
lauderdale and verify this?  You talk a big talk Jodi - now do you have
the passion to walk the walk and help these former kids.  Just let me know
and I will phone someone who will forward you a URL.  We don't want to
break our court order you understand ;-)

regards
Joe Baptista

                                        http://www.dot.god/
                                        dot.GOD Hostmaster

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:

> You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
> Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
> referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
> boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
> intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
> 
> Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > 
> > You miss the point...  I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
> > That is immaterial.
> > 
> > I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
> > speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
> > responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.
> > 
> > jay
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > To: Jay Holovacs 
> > Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
> > ; 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > 
> > > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
> > the
> > > > same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> > > > advocate violence to children)
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> > > > protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> > > > murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> > > >
> > > > jay
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > > To: Lizard 
> > > > Cc: Declan McCullagh ;
> > ;
> > > > 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > > > > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > > > > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > > > > differently.
> > >
> > > --
> > > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > > R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
> > >
> > > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> > >
> 
> -- 
> "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> R.A.M.P.-Restore America�s Moral Pride
> 
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> 




From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net  Thu Sep 14 00:01:52 2000
From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 03:01:52 -0400
Subject: CDR: surveillance tech lists?
Message-ID: <14581b00e2a6b3d6e22104da9608e95f@mixmaster.shinn.net>

Can anyone reccomend any email lists for discussing surveillance technology?

tia





From ocschwar at MIT.EDU  Thu Sep 14 00:47:38 2000
From: ocschwar at MIT.EDU (Omri Schwarz)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 03:47:38 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 14:09:55 PDT."
              
Message-ID: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>


> >Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
> >by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
> >with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)
> 
> This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
> near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
> backfire.
 
> I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
> backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
> money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
> compound she hated so much.

Coeur D'Alene has a lot of tourism going on,
and you must not get out much.
I hear a backfire at least once a week in Boston.

If anything, after the incident the AN's neighbors 
might have decided to milk it for what it's worth.
AN has been depressing the tourism in the area and
many of the locals want their heads on stakes. A friend of mine's
cousin was there at the last march and some of the neighbors
were there hoping to get a few punches in Aryan noses
and then blame the ruckus on the JDL. The AN
has a charming rep around there.

> In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those 
> who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an 
> example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" 
> doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty 
> Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like.
> 
> I still say we should sue Operation Push for every asset it has. 
> Hymietown, indeed.

Oh, hell yes.

Sharpton and Jackson should both pay for
the damage and injuries they've incited in NYC.





From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep 14 01:04:32 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:04:32 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <39BFFCDD.5659358B@acmenet.net>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000913193300.009834a0@idiom.com>


>Tim May wrote:
>...
>> Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant
>> salary and retirement benefits.

That's why it was critical that Lee be guilty of *something*,
at least one charge, so he doesn't have a strong position for
suing the Feds for big bucks individually and organizationally.
He may still have some ability to do that, but I'd be surprised
if the plea bargain deal didn't address it somehow, even if it's
not in the part that's in the press.

>> This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary
>> William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss
>> of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his
>> home computer and leaving codeword material where his family,
>> housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.

Was that Perry, or Deutch?  I think I saw recently that Deutch _is_
getting his wrist slapped somewhat hard now.



				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From solo0705 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 13 21:30:42 2000
From: solo0705 at hotmail.com (Mike Brown)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:30:42 GMT
Subject: CDR: data
Message-ID: 

How about Nevada?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From emailoffer-reply at xoom.com  Thu Sep 14 04:53:14 2000
From: emailoffer-reply at xoom.com (Email Offer)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:53:14 -0700
Subject: CDR: (KMM16139539C0KM)
Message-ID: <200009141710.KAA15172@toad.com>

This message is a computer-generated autoreply. 

Your request or inquiry could not be processed automatically and is 
being returned to you. E-mail sent to this address will not reach our 
support team.

If you have a question or request, please resubmit it using one of the 
following links.

To unsubscribe from NBCi newsletters:
http://wwwx.nbci.com/helpcenter/EmailUs.php?area=50 OR
mailto:subscriptions at nbci.com

To contact the support team for other issues, 

http://home.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,home-223,00.html?st.sn.ft.0.he
lp

Thank you.

--------Original Message--------
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not 
understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_000_01C01E20.69FA896C
Content-Type: text/plain

*********************************************************
Note: This is a special one-time mailing for Snap.com.
You have not been automatically subscribed to any additional
newsletters.
*********************************************************

Dear Snap Member,

We're excited to let you know that Snap.com is being enhanced and 
renamed
to provide everything you need on the Web in one fantastic new site
NBCi.com.  A beta test version of the site is already up and running, 
and
we'll continue to improve and fine-tune our services in the coming weeks
and months.

Check out http://orders.nbci.com/nbcis0913h
To create NBCi.com, we have taken the best features from Snap.com,
combined them with the best features from our sister site XOOM.com and
added hot information & entertainment content from NBC.

How does this affect you?


If you have personalized services under MySnap  (stock portfolio,
horoscope, weather, etc), all of your information is still available via
the same member name and password.  This area is now called MyNBCi.

Go to My NBCi
http://orders.nbci.com/mynbci0913
Some of NBCi's offerings will be new, and you'll see them rolling out in
the weeks and months ahead.  However, we'll still offer our best-known
services and continue to improve upon them.

What you will find on NBCi:

*     Fresh and relevant information on the subjects that interest
     you most:  News, Personal Finance, Travel, Shopping, Health,
     Technology, Entertainment and more!
*     The most relevant search results on the Web
     http://orders.nbci.com/searchandfinds0913
*     Free e-mail account  http://orders.nbci.com/emails0913
*     Current local information, so you know what's happening around
     you http://orders.nbci.com/localinformations0913
*     Personalized services: calendar, address book and more!
     http://orders.nbci.com/calendars0913
*     Access to more Software Downloads
     http://orders.nbci.com/downloadss0913

We want to make NBCi your trusted agent on the Web A personalizable Web
site that gives you WHAT your want WHEN you want it!

We value your opinion and would like to hear from you.  Please give us
your feedback on our new service.

Tell us what you think
http://orders.nbci.com/youropinions0913

Can't find what you're looking for?
http://orders.nbci.com/troublex0913

Sincerely,

NBCi
http://orders.nbci.com/nbcis0913h


This email was sent to: cypherpunks at toad.com


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, reply to this email with the word UNSUBSCRIBE
as the FIRST word in your reply.

 ***
 Please allow 3 to 5 business days for your unsubscribe request
 to take effect.
 ***

Or 
mailto:unsubs-OXNPMEMBERSHIP0913NON1c-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.nbci.com
with the word UNSUBSCRIBE as the FIRST word in your reply.

For more information about Snap.com/NBCi or your Snap.com/NBCi 
membership,
visit:
http://www.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,-487,00.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Snap.com is a trademark of Snap.com, Inc., other names are those of
their respective holders. (C) 2000 Snap.com, Inc. and its licensors.
Copyright (C) 1997-2000 NBC Internet, Inc. and its content providers.
All rights reserved.
http://edition.nbci.com/LMOID/resource/0,566,home-2958,00.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------


------_=_NextPart_000_01C01E20.69FA896C
Content-Type: text/plain;
	name="Forward.txt"
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="Forward.txt"

----------------------------------- Returned 
-----------------------------------
From: "Snap.com/NBCi" 
[SMTP:unsubs-OXNPMEMBERSHIP0913NON1c-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.nbci.com] 
at ExchangeBackbone
Date: 9/13/00 10:06PM -0400
*To: "cypherpunks at toad.com" [SMTP:cypherpunks at toad.com] at 
ExchangeBackbone
Subject: What? No more Snap.com?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

------_=_NextPart_000_01C01E20.69FA896C--




From bill.stewart at pobox.com  Thu Sep 14 01:53:50 2000
From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 04:53:50 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its hypocritical head
In-Reply-To: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000914015232.00a2c940@idiom.com>


>Lieberman: Entertainment Must
>            Police Itself or Else 
>            By Kalpana Srinivasan
>            Associated Press Writer
>
>            WASHINGTON (AP) - Sen. Joe Lieberman decried a
>            "culture of carnage" surrounding Americas young
>            people and told a Senate committee Wednesday that
>            the government should stop the marketing of violent
>            movies, music and video games to children if the
>            industry fails to police itself. 
> http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGI11ED63DC.html

Yep - all those commercials for "Be All You Can Be, Join The Army" and
"Join The Navy, See The World, Meet Interesting People and Kill Them", and
"Army Reserve - Spend Saturdays Keeping In Practice as a Trained Killer" and
all the war movies the Pentagon helps get made, and "COPS" tv shows, and
"The Drug War - Fix Moral and Health Problems By Declaring War" and its
related "Job Training and Practical Entrepreneurism For Inner-City Youth"
program,
both of which teach kids that violence is a good way to relate to your
neighbor -
in some cities, the training extends to franchising opportunities,
starting your own "Young Crips" neighborhood chapter.
There's also the "Starve Young Children By Economic Blockade" programs for
ridding the world of Hitler-of-the-year candidates that's worked so well,
and the "Be Afraid - Make More Anthrax Vaccine Before Terrorists Use It" gigs.

The government really *should* stop marketing those violent programs.
Themselves.
Before they mess with the (really large) motes in the movie businesses' eyes.

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639





From taran at macroe.net  Thu Sep 14 05:01:42 2000
From: taran at macroe.net (taran at macroe.net)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:01:42
Subject: CDR: Read Only If Serious About A Six Figure Income...
Message-ID: <823.83011.348693@delivery>

Are you serious about earning a Multiple Six Figure Income,
but do not want to be involved in MLM or a Franchise?
If you have reached the point in your life where you are ready
for Financial Freedom and a Real Opportunity to Retire
in 2-4 years, calling the number below is your first step.
Please, do not call unless you are highly motivated, goal
oriented, and ready for REAL success.
This� is a serious business looking only for those that
want to make a MINIMUM of $10,000 per month and to
truly be in a position to help others at the same time.

**24 Hour Recorded Message:� 1-800-320-9895 Ext. 5436**

Your background, age and debt level are not important.
Just a strong desire for financial independence.

"If we all did the things we are capable of doing, we
would literally astound ourselves."� Thomas A. Edison

To be removed respond at� success008 at yahoo.com







 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




From Celebrations at photopoint.com  Wed Sep 13 23:57:58 2000
From: Celebrations at photopoint.com (Celebrations at photopoint.com)
Date: 14 Sep 2000 06:57:58 GMT
Subject: CDR: Celebrations - Your NEW Newsletter!
Message-ID: <20000914065445.BEA885BE8F@asa1.emarkethost.net>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 10360 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From declan at well.com  Thu Sep 14 07:47:24 2000
From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 07:47:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <008801c01e58$11d80920$1501a8c0@ang394>
Message-ID: 

Perhaps an analogy might help make the general case for support of free
speech.

We may not like what our neighbor is doing with his lawn or house. But it
is in our best interests, generally speaking, to defend his property
rights from new laws and regulations because tomorrow our home could be at
risk.

-Declan


On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jay Holovacs wrote:

> How many times do I have to say this. I am *not* protecting them. I am
> protecting free speech... my free speech, your free speech.
> 
> This is much more dangerous than you seem to realize. It's tempting to let
> them get 'theirs' because their ideas are ugly to many of us. But if they
> can be held liable for a vicious murder (which they did not advocate or
> instigate) on the part of someone who read their site... what keeps you from
> being held accountable for someone who reads your site then kills a gay?
> 




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep 14 05:24:41 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:24:41 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
References: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>
Message-ID: <39C0C2B8.1ABF60C0@ricardo.de>

"William H. Geiger III" wrote:
> >Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
> 
> >Middle school student arrested in
> > poisoning
> 
> Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic poisoning?


by requiring a catchy headline, I'd guess.





From MRDePalma at LyonLyon.com  Thu Sep 14 08:30:40 2000
From: MRDePalma at LyonLyon.com (DePalma,  Michele R.)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 08:30:40 -0700
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <0715816F31E5D11180E400805FBB717A830223@WPX>

Do you know of any science articles that were written that were not
accurate/correct?  My daughter needs an article, etc. for a school project.
Appreciate your help.  
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 518 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From ptrei at rsasecurity.com  Thu Sep 14 06:57:28 2000
From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:57:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: RE: Is kerberos broken? cpunk
Message-ID: 



> ----------
> From: 	David Honig[SMTP:honig at sprynet.com]
> Sent: 	Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:26 PM
> To: 	Trei, Peter; Multiple recipients of list
> Subject: 	RE: Is kerberos broken? cpunk
> 
> At 11:06 AM 9/13/00 -0400, Trei, Peter wrote:
> >Here's an example of a good passphrase:
> >
> >"David grossly underestimates the ability of homo sapiens to memorize
> >and exactly reproduce long texts. An examination of American 
> >high school students ability to perform the Gettysburg Address is a
> >good counterexample."
> >
> >222 bytes, more or less. Even if we assume only 1bit of entropy per
> >character (it's ordinary english), that's a pretty tough space to search.
> >It's a safe bet that those two sentences have never been placed
> >together in all of human history before now, so there's no dictionary
> >to check.
> >
> >The problem is not that passphrases *can't* be made secure -
> >the problem is that most people are unwilling to use good ones. 
> >
> >Peter Trei
> 
> Well I'm flattered :-) and impressed.   I would be more impressed if
> e.g., you actually used such an entropic phrase, in real life.  Of course,
> we don't
> expect you reveal the actual length of your 'phrase.
> 
My passphrases are of substantial length. 

As for enterprise logins, 'we have a solution to that problem' :-)
http://www.rsasecurity.com/products/securid/

> I think you have convinced me, reinforcing something I've learned and
> propogated: convenience over security.  You have also reinforced something
> that fits with what I know of cog sci, and which gets to the limits of H.
> sapiens: you can only remember large things if they're structured
> 'meaningfully'.  Kasparov can't remember *random* chessboards better than
> you, only real ones.
> 
> DH, CSEE & Cog Sci '86
> 
It's interesting - structure reduces the entropy by making things
predictable,
but also makes them capable of memorization, despite non-trivial amounts
of remnant entropy. 

Peter










From bear at sonic.net  Thu Sep 14 09:58:39 2000
From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:

>You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
>Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
>referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
>boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
>intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?


Madam, it has nothing to do with what the website promotes.  I think 
that a website which a browser can display ought to be protected 
speech.  

If nothing else, it will supply material for dozens of Ph.D theses 
in psychology.  And yes, given the choice between an absolute law 
protecting speech and a law which can be constantly reinterpreted 
depending on the feelings and intestinal gas of the judges and juries 
involved and the ability of one side or another to spin a tear-jerker, 
I'll take the absolute law any day of the week.  

But there's something more important going on here than that. 

You don't achieve a sane culture by refusing to permit the 
insane voices within it to speak.  You achieve a sane culture by 
learning to understand the insanity within it and putting it in 
a sane context.  And you can't do that if you shut 'em up. 

You're upset because people you disagree with have been given a 
voice.  You figure you speak for society at large here and you're 
defending "polite society's" monopoly on speech.  Well, I gotta 
tell you, "polite society's" monopoly on speech would never have 
tolerated me, a few years ago or in a different place, so I am 
predisposed to believe that monopoly is a bad idea.  

			Bear

I hate to quote myself, but right now it seems appropriate: 
---

 There have always been a number of perverts, libertines, harlots, sluts,
 philanderers, pornographers, and other persons of loose moral virtue in
 society.  But prior to the internet, it was much, much more difficult
 for us to locate and identify each other. -- Ray Dillinger







From hallam at ai.mit.edu  Thu Sep 14 07:05:07 2000
From: hallam at ai.mit.edu (Phillip Hallam-Baker)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:05:07 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <001701c01e54$ca887300$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>

> > >Actually, she got shot at and roughed up
> > >by AN members. (AN has a habit of disavowing relations
> > >with members once they get in trouble with The Elders of Zion.)
> > 
> > This woman and her daughter just "happened" to be far from home, out 
> > near the AN compound, and their car, they claim, just "happened" to 
> > backfire.
>  
> > I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_ 
> > backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of 
> > money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the 
> > compound she hated so much.
> 
> Coeur D'Alene has a lot of tourism going on,
> and you must not get out much.
> I hear a backfire at least once a week in Boston.

Most cars don't backfire, essentially it is a sign that the engine
is seriously out of tune. 

Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to
Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing
the local Nazi encampment.

What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs
off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon
is a reasonable or even a sensible response.


> > In any case, if she was roughed up, without provocation, then those 
> > who roughed her up are solely to blame. Suing AN was merely an 
> > example of "deep pockets" and "joint and several liability" 
> > doctrines, motivated by PC sentiments. The Southern Law Poverty 
> > Center routinely uses this tactic to silence those it doesn't like.

The problem with the KKK, AN and other groups of thugs isn't 
what they say, it is what they do - beat people up. 

As for being PC, can anyone explain how an organization could
be less tollerant of opposing views than the AN?

        Phill




From no.user at anon.xg.nu  Thu Sep 14 08:21:27 2000
From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:21:27 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: McVeigh, Freedom Fighter or Kook?
Message-ID: <1d4e42d212a84a78ecbe02cc4cb36e68@anon.xg.nu>

Motyka quivered:

>I enjoy the rhetorical device of visiting death and destruction on the
>bad guys and clearly there is no shortage of politicians whose actual
>passing out of this life -by unspecified means- would make the world a
>safer, cleaner place but calling McVeigh a "freedom fighter" is off the
>mark. 0 points for that one. 


   What the fuck do you mean McVeigh isn't a freedom fighter? He's an
American national hero, most certainly the greatest freedom fighter in
the USA in recent memory! We need a McVeigh *everyday*!

     "If you want justice to grow, you've got to use a lot of fertilizer."





From holovacs at idt.net  Thu Sep 14 07:28:35 2000
From: holovacs at idt.net (Jay Holovacs)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 10:28:35 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com> <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com> <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394> <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394> <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <008801c01e58$11d80920$1501a8c0@ang394>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jodi Hoffman 
To: Jay Holovacs 
Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
; 
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?


> You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.


How many times do I have to say this. I am *not* protecting them. I am
protecting free speech... my free speech, your free speech.

This is much more dangerous than you seem to realize. It's tempting to let
them get 'theirs' because their ideas are ugly to many of us. But if they
can be held liable for a vicious murder (which they did not advocate or
instigate) on the part of someone who read their site... what keeps you from
being held accountable for someone who reads your site then kills a gay?

What keeps a book author or film director from being criminalized because
some sicko copycats an incident they describe?

This has nothing to do with protecting them, regardless of what they
believe. It is enlightened self interest.

jay





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 14 08:41:30 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:41:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000913193300.009834a0@idiom.com>
References: <200009132106.QAA60794@chao.insync.net>
Message-ID: 

At 4:04 AM -0400 9/14/00, Bill Stewart wrote:
>  >Tim May wrote:
>>...
>>>  Lee spent 9 months in solitary confinement and lost significant
>>>  salary and retirement benefits.
>
>That's why it was critical that Lee be guilty of *something*,
>at least one charge, so he doesn't have a strong position for
>suing the Feds for big bucks individually and organizationally.
>He may still have some ability to do that, but I'd be surprised
>if the plea bargain deal didn't address it somehow, even if it's
>not in the part that's in the press.
>
>>>  This makes it a moral requirement that former Defense Secretary
>>>  William Perry face a similar period of confinement and similar loss
>>>  of benefits. Perry has acknowledged downloading top secrets to his
>>>  home computer and leaving codeword material where his family,
>>>  housekeepers, and other visitors could have found and copied it.
>
>Was that Perry, or Deutch?  I think I saw recently that Deutch _is_
>getting his wrist slapped somewhat hard now.

You may be right. It may be Deutch, not Perry. I get those two guys 
confused all the time.


--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.





From craig at onshore.com  Thu Sep 14 12:40:11 2000
From: craig at onshore.com (Craig Brozefsky)
Date: 14 Sep 2000 12:40:11 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: Jodi Hoffman's message of "Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:57:09 -0400"
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
	<3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
	<39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
	<39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
	<39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <87r96mpxt0.fsf@piracy.red-bean.com>

Jodi Hoffman  writes:

> You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.  
> Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are 
> referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little 
> boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting 
> intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?

Having read over parts of the NAMBLA site months ago when the URL was
floating around the office as a joke, I saw nothing of the sort Jodi
is claiming.  It was a very straightforward and well-written site that
had no really racey content.  It was quite pedestrian in nature,
consisting mostly of discussions of anti-sex legislation, age of
consent issues, and social stigmatization of homosexual relations
between partners of different generations.  It would be well below the
pervert radar of most of the United States for sure, since in terms of
sexual relations it was much less detailed and evocative than your
common Sex Ed textbook.  In fact, the raciest comments are those from
boys who wrote in about their experiences, all between the age of
13-18, often having been involved in abusive relations prior to
meeting what they call a "boy lover".

If the words "Sex before eight, or it's too late" appear anywhere, it
would certainly not be in the context of their motto, more likely a
sarcastic comment, or a quote about what people like Jodi think they
are.  Jodi is talking out her ass here.  I can't fathom the hatred she
must have in order to make up something so ridiculous.

Of course now Jodi and others going to put me in their dirty pedo file
for daring to speak out in defense of NAMBLA.  I'm not gay myself, but
I remember the pain that several classmates in High School had to deal
with when coming to terms with their sexuality and the way that
society treated them.  Isolated, villified, and often suicidal, is no
way for a kid to grow up.

Anyways, for those who want to confirm for yourself, check out:

http://www.attrition.org/mirror/attrition/2000/04/11/www.nambla.org-1/

For a laugh, check out the hacked version:

http://www.attrition.org/mirror/attrition/2000/04/11/www.nambla.org/

It's ironic that a site for archiving hacked websites is the first
mirror of the NAMBLA site I find when doing a google search.

I suggest that those who wanted to do mirroring of the site grab it
from there ASAP.




From juicy at melontraffickers.com  Thu Sep 14 11:08:30 2000
From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:08:30 -0400
Subject: CDR: film c meltdown imminent
Message-ID: <9a4c79f5cae2e1c94f1763dbf5f4c697@melontraffickers.com>

The authors of FlasKMPEG have come across a program called
 FlasKMPEG DeCSS.
   We want to express very clearly that such program or any other
 derived from the original is no way related with the official
 FlasKMPEG project in any way. FlasKMPEG sources are available
 under the GPL license and its totally out of our responsibility the
 legal implications caused by the modifications or variations from other
 developers performed over our code. 
http://www.citeweb.com/flaskmpeg/







From wb8foz at nrk.com  Thu Sep 14 11:09:26 2000
From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:09:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: CDR: Lee Free - Judge Apologizes For Government's Conduct
Message-ID: <200009141809.OAA02159@sigma.nrk.com>


JUDGE PARKER Dr. Lee, you have pled guilty to a serious crime. It's
a felony offense. For that you deserved to be punished. In my
opinion, you have been punished harshly, both by the severe
conditions of pretrial confinement and by the fact that you have
lost valuable rights as a citizen.

Under the laws of our country, a person charged in federal court
with commission of a crime normally is entitled to be released from
jail until that person is tried and convicted. Congress expressed
in the Bail Reform Act its distinct preference for pretrial release
from jail and prescribed that release on conditions be denied to
a person charged with a crime only in exceptional circumstances.

The executive branch of the United States government has until
today actually, or just recently, vigorously opposed your release
from jail, even under what I had previously described as draconian
conditions of release.

During December 1999, the then-United States attorney, who has
since resigned, and his assistants presented me, during the
three-day hearing between Christmas and New Year's Day, with
information that was so extreme it convinced me that releasing you,
even under the most stringent of conditions, would be a danger
to the safety of this nation. The then-United States attorney
personally argued vehemently against your release and ultimately
persuaded me not to release you.

In my opinion and order that was entered Dec. 30, 1999, I stated
the following: "With a great deal of concern about the conditions
under which Dr. Lee is presently being held in custody, which
is in solitary confinement all but one hour of the week, when
he is permitted to visited his family, the court finds, based on
the record before it, that the government has shown by clear and
convincing evidence that there is no combination of conditions
of release that would reasonably assure the safety of any other
person and the community or the nation."

After stating that in the opinion, I made this request in the
opinion right at the end: "Although the court concludes that
Dr. Lee must remain in custody, the court urges the government
attorneys to explore ways to lessen the severe restrictions
currently imposed upon Dr. Lee while preserving the security of
sensitive information."

I was very disappointed that my request was not promptly heeded
by the government attorneys.

After December, your lawyers developed information that was
not available to you or them during December.  And I ordered
the executive branch of the government to provide additional
information that I reviewed, a lot of which you and your attorneys
have not seen.

With more complete, balanced information before me, I felt
the picture had changed significantly from that painted by the
government during the December hearing. Hence, after the August
hearing, I ordered your release despite the continued argument
by the executive branch, through its government attorneys, that
your release still presented an unacceptable extreme danger.

I find it most perplexing, although appropriate, that the executive
branch today has suddenly agreed to your release without any
significant conditions or restrictions whatsoever on your
activities. I note that this has occurred shortly before the
executive branch was to have produced, for my review in camera,
a large volume of information that I previously ordered it
to produce.

>From the beginning, the focus of this case was on your motive or
intent in taking the information from the secure computers and
eventually downloading it on to tapes. There was never really
any dispute about your having done that, only about why you did it.

What I believe remains unanswered is the question: What was the
government's motive in insisting on your being jailed pretrial
under extraordinarily onerous conditions of confinement until
today, when the executive branch agrees that you may be set free
essentially unrestricted? This makes no sense to me.

A corollary question I guess is: Why were you charged with the
many Atomic Energy Act counts for which the penalty is life
imprisonment, all of which the executive branch has now moved to
dismiss and which I just dismissed?

During the proceedings in this case, I was told two things:
first, the decision to prosecute you was made at the highest
levels of the executive branch of the United States Government
in Washington, D.C.

With respect to that, I quote from a transcript of the Aug. 15,
2000, hearing, where I asked this question.  This was asked
of Dr. Lee's lawyers: "Who do you contend made the decision
to prosecute?"

Mr. Holscher responded: "We know that the decision was made at
the highest levels in Washington. We know that there was a meeting
at the White House the Saturday before the indictment, which was
attended by the heads of a number of agencies. I believe the No. 2
and No. 3 persons in the Department of Justice were present. I
don't know if the attorney general herself was present. It was
actually held at the White House rather than the Department
of Justice, which is, in our view, unusual circumstances for
a meeting."

That statement by Mr. Holscher was not challenged.

The second thing that I was told was that the decision to prosecute
you on the 39 Atomic Energy Act counts, each of which had life
imprisonment as a penalty, was made personally by the president's
attorney general.

In that respect, I will quote one of the assistant U.S. attorneys,
a very fine attorney in this case this was also at the Aug. 15
hearing. This is talking about materials that I ordered to be
produced in connection with Dr. Lee's motion relating to selective
prosecution. The first category of materials involved the January
2000 report by the Department of Energy task force on racial
profiling: "How would that in any way disclose prosecutorial
strategy?"

Miss Fashing responded: "That I think falls more into the category
of being burdensome on the government. I mean if the government if
we step back for just a second I mean the prosecution decision and
the investigation in this case, the investigation was conducted
by the F.B.I., referred to the United States attorney's office,
and then the United States attorney's office, in conjunction
with well, actually, the attorney general, Janet Reno, made the
ultimate decision on the Atomic Energy Act counts."

Dr. Lee, you're a citizen of the United States and so am I, but
there is a difference between us. You had to study the Constitution
of the United States to become a citizen. Most of us are citizens
by reason of the simple serendipitous fact of our birth here. So
what I am now about to explain to you, you probably already know
from having studied it, but I will explain it anyway.

Under the Constitution of the United States, there are three
branches of government. There is the executive branch, of which
the president of the United States is the head. Next to him is the
vice president of the United States. The president operates the
executive branch with his cabinet, which is composed of secretaries
or heads of the different departments of the executive branch. The
vice president participates in cabinet meetings.

In this prosecution, the more important members of the president's
cabinet were the attorney general and the secretary of the
Department of Energy, both of whom were appointed to their
positions by the president.

The attorney general is the head of the United States Department
of Justice, which despite its title, is a part of the executive
branch, not a part of the judicial branch of our government.

The United States Marshal Service, which was charged with
overseeing your pretrial detention, also is a part of the executive
branch, not the judicial branch.

The executive branch has enormous power, the abuse of which can
be devastating to our citizens.

The second branch of our national government is the legislative
branch, our Congress. Congress promulgated the laws under which
you were prosecuted, the criminal statutes. And it also promulgated
the Bail Reform Act, under which in hindsight you should not have
been held in custody.

The judicial branch of government, of which I am a member, is
called the third branch of government because it's described in
Article III of our Constitution.

Judges must interpret the laws and must preside over criminal
prosecutions brought by the executive branch.  Since I am not a
member of the executive branch, I cannot speak on behalf of the
president of the United States, the vice president of the United
States, their attorney general, their secretary of the Department
of Energy or their former United States attorney in this district,
who vigorously insisted that you had to be kept in jail under
extreme restrictions because your release pretrial would pose a
grave threat to our nation's security.

I want everyone to know that I agree, based on the information
that so far has been made available to me, that you, Dr. Lee,
faced some risk of conviction by a jury if you were to have
proceeded to trial. Because of that, I decided to accept the
agreement you made with the United States executive branch under
Rule 11(e)(1)(C) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.

Further, I feel that the 278 days of confinement for your offense
is not unjust; however, I believe you were terribly wronged by
being held in custody pretrial in the Santa Fe County Detention
Center under demeaning, unnecessarily punitive conditions. I am
truly sorry that I was led by our executive branch of government
to order your detention last December.

Dr. Lee, I tell you with great sadness that I feel I was led astray
last December by the executive branch of our government through
its Department of Justice, by its Federal Bureau of Investigation
and by its United States attorney for the district of New Mexico,
who held the office at that time.

I am sad for you and your family because of the way in which you
were kept in custody while you were presumed under the law to be
innocent of the charges the executive branch brought against you.

I am sad that I was induced in December to order your detention,
since by the terms of the plea agreement that frees you today
without conditions, it becomes clear that the executive branch
now concedes, or should concede, that it was not necessary to
confine you last December or at any time before your trial.

I am sad because the resolution of this case drug on unnecessarily
long. Before the executive branch obtained your indictment on
the 59 charges last December, your attorney, Mr. Holscher, made
a written offer to the office of the United States attorney to
have you explain the missing tapes under polygraph examination.

I'll read from that letter of Dec. 10, 1999. I quote from that
letter:

"Dear United States Attorney Kelly and First Assistant Gorence:
I write to accept Mr. Kelly's request that we provide them with
additional credible and verifiable information which will prove
that Dr. Lee is innocent. On the afternoon of Wednesday, Dec. 8,
Mr. Kelly informed me that it was very likely that Dr. Lee will
be indicted within the next three to four business days. In our
phone conversation, Mr. Kelly told me that the only way that we
could prevent this indictment would be to provide a credible and
verifiable explanation of what he described as missing tapes.

"We will immediately provide this credible and verifiable
explanation. Specifically we are prepared to make Dr. Lee
immediately available to a mutually agreeable polygraph examiner
to verify our repeated written representations that at no time
did he mishandle those tapes in question and to confirm that he
did not provide the tapes to any third party.

"As a sign of our good faith, we will agree to submit Dr. Lee to
the type of polygraph examination procedure that has recently been
instituted at the Los Alamos Laboratory to question scientists. It
is our understanding that the government has reaffirmed that this
new polygraph procedure is the best and most accurate way to verify
that scientists are properly handling classified information."

At the inception of the December hearing, I asked the parties
to pursue that offer made by Mr. Holscher on behalf of Dr. Lee,
but that was to no avail.

MR. STAMBOULIDIS Your Honor, most respectfully, I take issue with
that. There has been a full record of letters that were sent back
and forth to you, and Mr. Holscher withdrew that offer.

JUDGE PARKER Nothing came of it, and I was saddened by the fact
that nothing came of it. I did read the letters that were sent
and exchanged. I think I commented one time that I think both
sides prepared their letters primarily for use by the media and
not by me. Notwithstanding that, I thought my request was not
taken seriously into consideration.

Let me turn for the moment to something else. Although I have
indicated that I am sorry that I was led by the executive branch to
order your detention last December, I want to make a clarification
here. In fairness, I must note that virtually all of the lawyers
who work for the Department of Justice are honest, honorable,
dedicated people, who exemplify the best of those who represent
our federal government.

Your attorney, Mr. Holscher, formerly was an assistant United
States attorney. The new United States attorney for the district
of New Mexico, Mr. Norman Bay, and the many assistant United States
attorneys here in New Mexico and I include in this Mr. Stamboulidis
and Mr. Liebman, who are present here today have toiled long
hours on this case in opposition to you. They are all outstanding
members of the bar, and I have the highest regard for all of them.

It is only the top decision makers in the executive branch,
especially the Department of Justice and the Department of Energy
and locally, during December, who have caused embarrassment by
the way this case began and was handled. They did not embarrass
me alone. They have embarrassed our entire nation and each of us
who is a citizen of it.

I might say that I am also sad and troubled because I do not
know the real reasons why the executive branch has done all of
this. We will not learn why because the plea agreement shields
the executive branch from disclosing a lot of information that
it was under order to produce that might have supplied the answer.

Although, as I indicated, I have no authority to speak on behalf
of the executive branch, the president, the vice president, the
attorney general, or the secretary of the Department of Energy,
as a member of the third branch of the United States Government,
the judiciary, the United States courts, I sincerely apologize
to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner you were held in custody
by the executive branch.



-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433




From tom at ricardo.de  Thu Sep 14 05:23:49 2000
From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:23:49 +0200
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000913222508.057cf380@popserver.panix.com> 
Message-ID: <39C0C355.FA19DECF@ricardo.de>

Tim May wrote:
> >The defendants have no lawyers and are proceeding in pro se.  The
> >sites may be gone Friday night if the judge rules against them.
> >
> 
> More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that this is the real
> crime: not hiring lawyers.

in a world run by lawyers, not paying your road fees is, of course, a
crime.




From frissell at panix.com  Thu Sep 14 11:26:21 2000
From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:26:21 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Why?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20000914142049.02dfa310@popserver.panix.com>

At 04:16 PM 9/13/00 +0000, Phaedrus wrote:

>Sheeple, who don't think defensively. Even for their kids
>
>oh, don't get me wrong, a convicted child molester moving into town, or
>maybe an 'obscene' website, they'll scream about -- but they don't think
>about real danger

For example, 90% of sheeple send their children to government mind 
destruction facilities to have their minds destroyed.

You may have seen ads which show mothers driving their innocents to these 
institutions in Volvos (supposedly because they want to keep them 
safe).  Better they should drive their kids in old VW Beetles and keep them 
away from facilities designed to brain damage their offspring.

DCF

----
"I wake up every morning worrying about your children" -- Bill Clinton (1992).
I sincerely hope not because if he does worry about my children he might 
feel compelled to do something about them and the resulting fire fight 
would cause significant collateral damage in the neighborhood.




From rabbi at quickie.net  Thu Sep 14 14:52:13 2000
From: rabbi at quickie.net (L. Sassaman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I've been running an anonymous remailer since DefCon, when a certain
speaker motivated me to set one up. I get on average 1 threat of bodily
harm and 3 threats of lawsuits per day because of this.

To attempt to answer the question "why do you run a remailer", I put up
the page http://www.melontraffickers.com/remailer.html.

This seems to have the effect of further annoying those who would have
anonymous remailers outlawed.

I don't enjoy the fact that some people are being harassed through my
remailer. But I cannot prevent that without limiting the effectiveness of
the remailer. 

Have there been any court rulings that define the level of liability for
remops whose remailers are used to facilitate criminal actions?

Is someone like myself, running a public remailer, considered an ISP? (I'm
thinking of the Prodigy ruling, where Prodigy was deemed not responsible
for content posted on its BBS system.)

- --Len.

On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Perhaps an analogy might help make the general case for support of free
> speech.
> 
> We may not like what our neighbor is doing with his lawn or house. But it
> is in our best interests, generally speaking, to defend his property
> rights from new laws and regulations because tomorrow our home could be at
> risk.
> 
> -Declan
> 
> 
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jay Holovacs wrote:
> 
> > How many times do I have to say this. I am *not* protecting them. I am
> > protecting free speech... my free speech, your free speech.
> > 
> > This is much more dangerous than you seem to realize. It's tempting to let
> > them get 'theirs' because their ideas are ugly to many of us. But if they
> > can be held liable for a vicious murder (which they did not advocate or
> > instigate) on the part of someone who read their site... what keeps you from
> > being held accountable for someone who reads your site then kills a gay?
> > 
> 

__

L. Sassaman

Security Architect             |  "Lose your dreams and you
Technology Consultant          |   will lose your mind."
                               |   
http://sion.quickie.net        |       --The Rolling Stones



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: OpenPGP Encrypted Email Preferred.

iD8DBQE5wUiWPYrxsgmsCmoRAuapAKDUQEz8mN67NnioFD2Q2YP/Gfe4zwCgwFZE
6ncZVIbwMu5a7dL2ASr2NQY=
=5U53
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 14 08:10:34 2000
From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:10:34 GMT
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
Message-ID: 

Phill Hallam-Baker writes:
>The problem with the KKK, AN and other groups of thugs isn't what they say, 
>it is what they do - beat people up.
>
>As for being PC, can anyone explain how an organization could
>be less tollerant of opposing views than the AN?

Perhaps not less tolerant, but certainly more dangerous: by having
government as its enforcer.  This is why folks are disturbed by the
lawsuits against NAMBLA and the like.  Not that most of us have any
use for them or their philosophy, but that the folks suing them are
in effect using the power of government to "beat them up".

- GH

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 18:42:23 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 15:42:23 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
 <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914153910.00d2ded0@flex.com>

At 02:09 PM 13/09/00 -0700, Tim May wrote:

 >I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_
 >backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of
 >money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the
 >compound she hated so much.

A vehicle badly out of tune will backfire, as will a vehicle whose driver 
turns the motor off for a few seconds, then turns the ignition back on as 
the vehicle rolls down the road.  This works better in vehicles with manual 
transmissions.  unburnt fuel flushed through the exhaust system ignites at 
once, resulting in a very noticeable backfire-like noise.

While no vehicle you've ever owned has ever backfired, you say, this does 
mean other vehicles are free from the phenomena.

Nice ad hominem, btw.




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 19:21:24 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:21:24 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914153910.00d2ded0@flex.com>
References: 
 <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
 <200009132057.QAA23837@lola-granola.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914162048.00d99ad0@flex.com>

At 03:42 PM 14/09/00 -1000, Reese wrote:
 >At 02:09 PM 13/09/00 -0700, Tim May wrote:
 >
 > >I doubt the backfiring theory very much...none of my cars has _ever_
 > >backfired, and I've been driving since 1968. I would bet a lot of
 > >money that this woman, a leftie simp-wimp, took a shot at the
 > >compound she hated so much.
 >
 >A vehicle badly out of tune will backfire, as will a vehicle whose driver
 >turns the motor off for a few seconds, then turns the ignition back on as
 >the vehicle rolls down the road.  This works better in vehicles with manual
 >transmissions.  unburnt fuel flushed through the exhaust system ignites at
 >once, resulting in a very noticeable backfire-like noise.
 >
 >While no vehicle you've ever owned has ever backfired, you say, this does
 >mean other vehicles are free from the phenomena.

d'oh.  NOT.  This does NOT mean other vehicles are free from,,,

 >Nice ad hominem, btw.
 >
 > 




From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 14 13:39:04 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:39:04 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party - Sept. 21
In-Reply-To: <200009132018.QAA12093@iang.zks.net>
References: <200009132018.QAA12093@iang.zks.net>
Message-ID: 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> 	The Big RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party
> 	A fundraiser for the Cryptorights Foundation
> 	(http://www.cryptorights.org/)
> 	September 21, 2000
> 	8PM-2AM

This is going to be great... In theory, at least, one could start in
Boston after work at 5:30 EDT on Wednesday, talk through your teeth while
munching canapes over evening cocktails at the Hahvid Club dahling, jump
on a plane, fly west all night, stay up all the next day, and party all
Thursday night in San Francisco. Ending up, of course, on the floor
somewhere with your feet in the sky and, um, Xes in your eyes, some 30(?)
hours later at 2AM PDT.

Riiight.

Of course, there *are* people threatening to come to Boston from Europe
on the 20th, and, having done something that crazy already, *they* might
be up for something as biochronically challenging, but not me, nooooo....

Cheers,
RAH
A tired old poop who's not at all jealous that *their* party's gonna be
waay cooler than *our* party, but who still can't help but observe that
*we're* raising money for a *sponsor* of *their* party, either.  It was
ever thus, though, and all for very good causes on both accounts,
certainly.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use 

iQEVAwUBOcE3M8UCGwxmWcHhAQG32ggApqGPt88qanGARME8NUQwvxJ8I6VUIuur
6EeN2VLmWbGb33i2BR4isEdtesOCNcP70mPJI00+iC/zn7NL9ppy6RGt21NXKa8h
WUyGG42sVaDQD6LEGdVk/W9/Jw7ZhwUe9CDo/6j9sH0vUfIQht+WCGazi5fTn7qw
wWNbtwc3D6HEUGLeP90gYC+e2Ihq2uTFpWoSl52BH/n4iyELt0mz66SmJRUIEqgm
++Q2Za8FrzfdJDKaZgUb3RrdEbkLeo2HrCFGYQPj5NiT5Se5jjHfI/OZOjRBf31M
qO6nBoR9iPW3+q/H5VuJ7MOVfbRKrtw8J4XDyxG7/WGcFjICcWRLSw==
=r+z8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 19:41:40 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:41:40 -1000
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <001701c01e54$ca887300$0701000a@ne.mediaone.net>
References: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914161844.00d31ae0@flex.com>

Still crossposting liberally, I see.

At 10:05 AM 14/09/00 -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:

 >Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to
 >Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing
 >the local Nazi encampment.

My own differences with Tim aside, what proof do you have that Tim
drives past Nazi encampments?  Decry his "statistics abuse" while an
equally underhanded conjecture emerges from your addled backside?

 >What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs
 >off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon
 >is a reasonable or even a sensible response.

Defending racism?  Please show where the defendants in the lawsuit
were shown to possess such an implement.  It wasn't mentioned in
this thread, nor do
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/99/01/st012717.html or other, similar
stories cover this little factoid.  I remember reading about this
lawsuit when the story first broke, this is the first I've heard that
a loaded, recently fired weapon was found in the Keenan vehicle.

Great Scott!!!  The loaded, recently fired weapon wasn't an SKS,
possibly resembling the one fired at the Keenan vehicle, was it?

 >As for being PC, can anyone explain how an organization could
 >be less tollerant of opposing views than the AN?

I've heard academia could give them a good run for their money.




From rah at shipwright.com  Thu Sep 14 13:45:14 2000
From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 16:45:14 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

At 1:19 PM -0700 on 9/13/00, Tim May wrote:


> The big news today was the announcement that human habitation remains
> have been found where the Ryan and Pitman theory predicted.

Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was
dry at one time, with an equivalent event (well of type, it was by
definition, larger) at Gibraltar, though, it seems to me that it was
sometime very much closer to the last ice age than the events described in
today's news.

There was some discussion at the time that *that* was the cause of the
flood myth, but this recent discovery is clearly a much more memorable
event, in terms of human history and especially its closer proximity to the
advent of writing.

Cheers,
RAH
-- 
-----------------
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'




From jstanford at gotfreemail.net  Thu Sep 14 17:40:26 2000
From: jstanford at gotfreemail.net (jstanford at gotfreemail.net)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CDR: new directions
Message-ID: <200009150040.RAA22127@cyberpass.net>


Hello,
 
I was wondering if you were interested in DRAMATICALLY increasing
your INTERNET SALES and SIGNUPS and getting MORE WEBSITE TRAFFIC.

If you're interested, I'll send you this FREE REPORT ($30 value)
that will teach you how you can IMPROVE your e-Business big time!

This newly released FREE INSIDERS REPORT reveals everything...

TO RECEIVE YOUR FREE INSIDERS REPORT EMAIL ME RIGHT NOW AT:
fusilade at netcourrier.com and type MORE in the subject line.

OR CLICK HERE... mailto:fusilade at netcourrier.com?subject=MORE
CLICK

Best Regards,
James Stanford
Stanford eBiz Marketing
 
_______________________________________________________________
I received your email as someone interested in Internet Business
Services/Opps. If I received your email cypherpunks at cyberpass.net 
in error, please send a blank e-mail to: mornot2 at email.com with 
"REMOVE" in the subject line and we will immediately remove you. 
List removal link click: mailto:mornot2 at email.com?subject=REMOVE
_______________________________________________________________




From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Thu Sep 14 16:14:59 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:14:59 -0400
Subject: CDR: fun and games with SDMI
Message-ID: 

Linux users say SDMI contest a trick 

     By Lisa M. Bowman, ZDNet News

     Some Linux lovers say the record industry is using them
     as a free consulting service to improve SDMI encryption.

     Some members of the Linux community are rejecting the
     record industrys request to help it create a more secure technical lock on its
     digital music.

     The Linux Journal is sponsoring a boycott of the Secure Digital Music Initiative hacking
     challenge, which starts Friday and promises to pay $10,000 to any hacker who strips out
     the watermark from a digital song.

                     SDMI is a technology initiative launched by the record companies
                     to crack down on piracy. In the coming weeks, SDMI will try out a
                     variety of security measures, with plans to eventually adopt a
                     hacker-tested technology that will prevent people from playing
                     bootleg songs on SDMI-compatible hardware.

                     However, some Linux lovers say the record industry is only using
                     the hackers as a "free consulting" service to help it crack down on
                     legal uses of music in the future, in an attempt to exert
                     unprecedented control over when and where people play songs.

                     The Linux Journal is urging readers to sign a letter saying they wont
                     play along.

     "Thanks, SDMI, but no thanks. I wont do your dirty work for you," the letter states. "I
     will not help test programs or devices that violate privacy or interfere with the right of fair
     use."

     People who sign the letter will agree that they will never make a bootleg copy of a
     recording, but will only play one copy at a time in different devices, an action thats legal
     under the concept of fair use, but may be hard to follow in these days of rampant digital
     file swapping.

     In a sense, the open sharing of information that has allowed the Linux community to
     mushroom is directly at odds with the motives of traditional entertainment companies,
     which want to lock down their content.

     PR stunt

     Ironically, the entertainment industry in the past has sued people whove tried to reverse
     engineer their encryption technology -- the same act SDMI is now asking them to perform
     during the hacking contest.

     Linux Journal technical editor Don Marti, one of the boycotts organizers, said the goal is
     to thwart what he called "SDMIs PR stunt."

     "Why are freedom-loving people supposed to do free consulting work for an organization
     that wants to take away our freedom?" he asked.

     SDMI officials were not immediately available for comment.






From See.Comment.Header at [127.1]  Thu Sep 14 16:15:29 2000
From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:15:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: MP3.com yanks DeCSS sourcecode sung
Message-ID: <0SFWMU4O36783.8050462963@anonymous.poster>


  MP3.com yanks song with illegal
  DVD-hacking code 
  By Corey Grice
  Staff Writer, CNET News.com
  September 13, 2000, 7:25 p.m. PT 

  Joseph Weckers song about a binary computer code wasnt exactly a
  chart-topper, but he doesnt think MP3.com should have banned it. 

  The popular music Web site today removed the song, in which Wecker,
  sounding more than a little like a 1960s sit-in protester, sings a version of
  the banned computer code known as DeCSS. 

                  In an email to Wecker, MP3.com cited the nature of
                  the music lyrics for the songs eradication. "Your
                  song has either a song title or lyrics that are
                  offensive or otherwise inappropriate," the company
                  wrote. 

                  "Since there is a precedent holding (2600.com)
                  culpable for posting the code, we felt it was in our
                  best interest to remove it," an MP3.com spokesman
                  said in an interview. 

                  The Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA)
                  has filed lawsuits seeking to outlaw the code, calling
                  it a hack of its DVD encryption scheme aimed at
                  making and distributing illegal copies of digital films.
                  A federal judge in New York last month agreed,
                  banning hacker publication 2600.com from
                  publishing or linking to the code online. 

  The song, called DeCSS.MP3, offers an English-language rendition of
  computer code that, depending on whom you ask, is either a harmless
  exercise in experimental software engineering or a missile aimed at the
  heart of Hollywood. Either way, DeCSS has become a flash point in the
  head-on collision between digital technologies and copyright owners, much
  as Napster has for the music industry. 

  The programmers who wrote the code insist DeCSS was designed to play
  legally purchased movie DVDs on computers running the Linux operating
  system--a format not supported by the movie industry. They say the code is
  a form of speech and is protected by the First Amendment--a claim many
  DeCSS supporters have rushed to validate by churning out artistic and
  other nonfunctioning works based on the DeCSS source code. 

  Wecker said he sang the DeCSS code
  as a way to attract attention to the
  issue. 

  "Its gone one step too far," Wecker
  said. "Its illegal to photocopy a
  copyrighted poem. But now its like it
  has become illegal to tell someone
  how the Xerox works." 

  Other protesters have published
  portions of DeCSS on T-shirts and
  have recorded dramatic readings of
  the code. Some have used the code to
  create images in graphics files.
  Pro-DeCSS supporters say these
  demonstrations dont contain the full
  source code necessary to decode a
  DVD, a popular digital home movie
  format. 

  "I find it very disturbing that I live in a country where singing source code
  may be technically illegal--kind of chilling," Wecker said. "My song is just
  like the T-shirts. The T-shirts dont even have enough code to decode a
  DVD." 

  MP3.com, meanwhile, is wrestling with its own copyright troubles. A federal
  judge last week found that the company willfully infringed the copyrights of
  Universal Music Group in creating an online database of some 80,000 CDs
  for use with its My.MP3.com music locker service. The company could be
  on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in damages. 






From apoio at giganetstore.com  Thu Sep 14 11:49:27 2000
From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:49:27 +0100
Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F3_at=E9_ao_fim_de_Setembro?=
Message-ID: <00d042749180e90WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore>

  
    
Gosta de partilhar as coisas boas da vida com os seus amigos?
Então porque não reenviar-lhes este mail ?
E já agora aproveite as ofertas que a giganetstore.com
  tem para si, só até ao fim de Setembro
1 - Netpin Grátis 


2 - Por cada compra efectuada oferecemos-lhe:
* Um Cartão Teleweb com 10 min. em chamadas 
*Um EasyNet Teleweb com 1.000$00 em chamadas


3 - Isenção de Portes 

Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site
http://www.giganetstore.com  , ir à edição
do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas
promoções e novos serviços. 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 2202 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com  Thu Sep 14 18:12:34 2000
From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:12:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote:

> Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was
> dry at one time, with an equivalent event (well of type, it was by
> definition, larger) at Gibraltar, though, it seems to me that it was
> sometime very much closer to the last ice age than the events described in
> today's news.

Actualy it's been dry several times. The Med is in a 'salinity crisis'.
The most recent time the Atlantic broke through at Gibralter there was a
waterfall that was several thousand feet high. The mean level of the Med
is lower even today than the Atlantic with a net flow into the Med.

    ____________________________________________________________________

                     He is able who thinks he is able.

                                           Buddha

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------




From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Thu Sep 14 17:26:53 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:26:53 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: censorship rears its head
In-Reply-To: Tim May's message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:25:29 -0400"
References: <40147b74d6cd2dfd08c9f02e0f2ac7a1@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <84ya0uo5zc.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Tim May  writes:

> I will look forward to watching the coverage. Do you plan to take out 
> just the censorious bitch Lynne Cheney, or also her censorious 
> husband and VP candidate?
> 
> And then there's Al Gore (RAT) and his running mate (JEW RAT).
> 
> (Subliminal messages brought to you by the Republican Party).
> 
> Interesting that 3 out of the 4 top rats--Cheney, Gore, 
> Lieberman--have their own censorious attacks on speech, or have 
> spouses who lead such attacks. Lynne, Tipper, and   Lieberman 
> himself. I wonder why Bush is being left out? Maybe it'll be like 
> Nixon in China: the only one of the four not calling for repeal of 
> the First Amendment will be the one who pulls the trigger.

Some attorney (RAT) has filed suit against the entertainment industry
over the shooting in Peduchah, Kentucky. Right now he's doing the talk
radio circuit, trying to drum up support. (I suppose to cause such a
public outcry that the judge feels strongarmed to rule in his favor,
and to taint juries.) 

The central argument appears to be that the entertainment industry has
marketted their products, which happen to contain violence and sex, to
the people who are their biggest consumers: people under 18. But
because they're under the magic age of 18, they apparently aren't
responsible for blowing away their classmates; the computer game
companies are.

The quantity of bogus claims, lies, distortions, and general bullshit
the guy was spreading is too large for me to list them all, and after
a while they kind of blend into one big blob of bullshit anyway, but
I'll go over some of the more notable ones.

1) Contrary to whatever this attorney and other power-hungry censors
   would like us all to believe, the fact that most of these school
   shooters have played violent video games and seen violent movies
   does not mean that the movies were to blame. "But *ALL* of them
   have!" Yeah, and all of them probably ate chicken at some point in
   the month before their rampages too. The fallacy is obvious. As far
   as I know, nobody has bothered to counter the obvious question:
   Isn't it more likely that the people who have a predisposition to
   violence just tend to be drawn to this media, especially
   considering that there are millions of people out there who use it
   but *aren't* killing people?

2) He quickly tried to make some point that when a child (again,
   defined as someone under 18, or 17, as the case may be) sees
   "violent or sexually-explicit" images, there is some change in the
   brain. So he mentions some Harvard University study, but doesn't
   bother to give a useable citation (journal name, author, date...),
   which, he claims, showed "increased blood flows to the amygdala"
   using MRI in "children," but not in adults. 

   A) I have "increased blood flows" when I have a pulsating headache
   too. I have "increased blood flows" whenever my heart rate and
   blood pressure increase. I'm not a neurologist, but I'd figure that
   that doesn't mean anything neurologically. It dosen't even mean
   that there's enhanced activity in that region. 
 
   B) Wouldn't it make more sense to just slip the subjects
   radioactive glucose, wait a few minutes, and then do a PET scan?
   That way you can actually tell which neurons are firing? (When a
   neuron generates an action potential, it doesn't use any
   energy. It uses it when it recovers. So when a neuron fires a lot,
   it sucks in a lot of glucose, which means that the radioactive
   glucose winds up in the neurons, which means that it's held there,
   which means that you can see it on a PET scan.)

   C) Neurological structure changes *do* occur. They occur when I
   watch violent and sexually-explicit movies. They also change when I
   sit on the toilet, eat food, do a math problem, listen to music, or
   walk across the room. It's called learning. The fact that
   neurological structure changes in people exposed to this is
   meaningless. Do a behavoral study, then it might have some
   validity. 

   D) Why would you use an MRI in this case _at all_?

   E) Even increased activity does not imply psychological or
   neurological changes. It means that the neurons are firing. That's
   all. 

   This indicates that either:
     
     A) The researchers were purposefully trying to obscure data.

     B) The stupid attorney, and by extension probably the stupid judge,
     is trying to pull one over on the intentionally-stupid jury and
     voluntarily-stupid public, by distorting a biomedical study. 

3) When another attorney called in and challenged him with the obvious
   statement that it isn't the entertainment industry's problem but
   rather the shooter's and the shooter's parents, the plantiff's
   attorney retorted with a purposeful and direct distortion and
   asked: "It's the fault of the parents of the three little girls who
   were shot?" What happened after that was fairly unintelligable,
   while the plantiff's attorney proceeded to talk over the
   caller. 

4) Why can't people accept that shit happens and that sometimes you
   *can't* go blame everyone in sight? I don't hear of anyone suing
   any of the following:

    * The public school system in the area: The shooter most likely
      had a history of behavoral problems, yet they put him in the
      general population. Therefore, along the same line of thinking
      that this guy is using (but at a position closer to sanity) he
      should be suing the public schools.
    * Anybody who ever passed laws restricting the ability of the
      students who were shot at to themselves have a gun. (No, I don't
      necessarily think that they should have had one, but even *this*
      would be saner than suing the movie and computer game
      industries.) 

5) His ethical justification for filing this lawsuit, which he knows
   is ridiculous, is that if the movie industry isn't found at fault
   and sued, the government will impose what he calls "draconian
   censorship laws."

6) If violent and sexually-explicit imagery and games are *really* so
   inherently dangerous, then why aren't the millions and millions of
   *other* people out there who have watched it or played them out
   there killing people? 

7) Why can't we place the blame where it belongs: On the shooter?





From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 14 20:57:57 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 20:57:57 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: Noah's Flood
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
Message-ID: 

At 4:45 PM -0400 9/14/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>At 1:19 PM -0700 on 9/13/00, Tim May wrote:
>
>
>>  The big news today was the announcement that human habitation remains
>>  have been found where the Ryan and Pitman theory predicted.
>
>Evidently, there's oceanographic evidence that the Mediterranean itself was
>dry at one time, with an equivalent event (well of type, it was by
>definition, larger) at Gibraltar, though, it seems to me that it was
>sometime very much closer to the last ice age than the events described in
>today's news.

It's well-established that the Mediterranean inundation was more than 
10 million years ago. Apples and oranges, archaeologically or 
anthropologically speaking.

--Tim May
-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From tcmay at got.net  Thu Sep 14 21:37:50 2000
From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:37:50 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party - Sept. 21
In-Reply-To: 
References: <200009132018.QAA12093@iang.zks.net>
 
Message-ID: 

At 4:39 PM -0400 9/14/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>	The Big RSA Patent Expiration Composite Party
>>	A fundraiser for the Cryptorights Foundation
>>	(http://www.cryptorights.org/)
>>	September 21, 2000
>>	8PM-2AM
>
>This is going to be great... In theory, at least, one could start in
>Boston after work at 5:30 EDT on Wednesday, talk through your teeth while
>munching canapes over evening cocktails at the Hahvid Club dahling, jump
>on a plane, fly west all night, stay up all the next day, and party all
>Thursday night in San Francisco. Ending up, of course, on the floor
>somewhere with your feet in the sky and, um, Xes in your eyes, some 30(?)
>hours later at 2AM PDT.
>
>Riiight.
>
>Of course, there *are* people threatening to come to Boston from Europe
>on the 20th, and, having done something that crazy already, *they* might
>be up for something as biochronically challenging, but not me, nooooo....

I find far more joy in reading a book, eating a meal, drinking a good 
bourbon, riding my bicycle in Monterey, or hanging out in my recliner 
and surfing the Net while watching a movie on HBO...than I would in 
popping MDMA or whatever it is they do and dancing in a trance to 
some DJ making records go backwards.

The fact that _all_ of the so-called music entertainers at the SF 
event are "trancers" is...symptomatic...of something.

I hope they have fun.

Feh.


--Tim May


-- 
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon"             | black markets, collapse of governments.




From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 18:43:48 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:43:48 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
In-Reply-To: <200009132138.RAA28601@domains.invweb.net>
References: <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892@melontraffickers.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914154300.00dd2b10@flex.com>

At 05:38 PM 13/09/00 -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
 >In <7084c6fbe1471a7571f53c4933da6892 at melontraffickers.com>, on 09/13/00
 >   at 12:59 PM, "A. Melon"  said:
 >
 >>Subject: domestic bioterrorism incident in FLA school
 >
 >>Middle school student arrested in
 >> poisoning
 >
 >Exactly how do you get "domestic bioterrorism" from a rather simplistic
 >poisoning?

Same way you get "construction engineer" from ditch digger, or "sanitation
engineer" from garbage collector.





From mailmaster at Tpage.com  Thu Sep 14 05:59:59 2000
From: mailmaster at Tpage.com (Tpage.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:59:59 +0900
Subject: CDR: Tpage Newsletter - A Leader in Global B2B Trade
Message-ID: <200009141259.VAA31359@liger.tpage.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 28440 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From mailmaster at Tpage.com  Thu Sep 14 06:00:00 2000
From: mailmaster at Tpage.com (Tpage.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:00:00 +0900
Subject: CDR: Tpage Newsletter - A Leader in Global B2B Trade
Message-ID: <200009141300.WAA31362@liger.tpage.com>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/html
Size: 28441 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 

From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 14 19:01:29 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:01:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: 
Message-ID: <39C182F9.A0F@attglobal.net>

If you're serious, send it.  We own a law firm.  Furthermore, a lot of 
the cases we handle are pro bono, especially when children are involved. 
  We would help in any way we can.  What you say doesn't surprise me.  

!Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
> 
> People don't seem to understand what free speech is all about.  You might
> be interested in knowing Jodi that Hitlers Germany had one of the most
> progressive free speech policies in the world.  You could say whatever you
> wanted to say, provided it was authorized by the state.
> 
> I don't support free speech because it's the fashionable thing to
> do.  Free speech is the basic right of all.  The content of that right is
> irrelevant.
> 
> Now - you spending alot of time on the sex angle here.  I don't think you
> understand what freedom of speech means.  If I were to tell you that I had
> personal knowledge of the rape by canadian politicians and senior
> bureacrats of young boys from fort lauderdale during the 60, 70, 80's -
> and that these rapes and further investigation of those who abuse these
> children is being intentionally suppressed by senior police officers and
> law officers in Canada - how would you react to this?
> 
> Now here's the kicker.  I have all of that knowledge and I am prevented by
> court order from exposing any of these people.  You can thank Judge
> William Browne of the Ontario Court for that.
> 
> It's people like you who are willing to deny others rights who end up
> taking away my rights to expose these political child molesters.
> 
> Would you like to follow up with the investigating officer in fort
> lauderdale and verify this?  You talk a big talk Jodi - now do you have
> the passion to walk the walk and help these former kids.  Just let me know
> and I will phone someone who will forward you a URL.  We don't want to
> break our court order you understand ;-)
> 
> regards
> Joe Baptista
> 
>                                         http://www.dot.god/
>                                         dot.GOD Hostmaster
> 
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> > You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
> > Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
> > referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
> > boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
> > intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
> >
> > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > >
> > > You miss the point...  I have never read their site, I do not intend to.
> > > That is immaterial.
> > >
> > > I am addressing the other issue, that your crowd too is protected by free
> > > speech rights even though there are plenty who would like to hold you
> > > responsible for crime against gays and abortion providers.
> > >
> > > jay
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > To: Jay Holovacs 
> > > Cc: Lizard ; Declan McCullagh ;
> > > ; 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 11:45 AM
> > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > >
> > > > Jay Holovacs wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You really don't seem to get it, defending the right to speech is NOT
> > > the
> > > > > same as defending the content (though I understand that nowhere do they
> > > > > advocate violence to children)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oh, please.  Anal sex with an eight year old child is not violent?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Remember, Jodi, the *same* law that should be protecting their speech
> > > > > protects you and your allies from being prosecuted each time a gay is
> > > > > murdered or an abortion clinic bombed.
> > > > >
> > > > > jay
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Jodi Hoffman 
> > > > > To: Lizard 
> > > > > Cc: Declan McCullagh ;
> > > ;
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 10:56 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ah, the Lizard slinks to the support of child rapists and
> > > > > > murderers.  Don't sacrifice my child on the altar of the First
> > > > > > Amendment, Liz.  I'm sure if it were your son, you would feel
> > > > > > differently.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > > > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > > > R.A.M.P.-Restore America's Moral Pride
> > > >
> > > > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > > > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > > > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > > > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > "He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
> > the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
> > R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride
> >
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > 2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
> > TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280
> >

-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 14 19:15:31 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:15:31 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>
	 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>
	 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>
	 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> 
Message-ID: <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>

petro wrote:
> 
> >You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
> >Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
> >referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
> >boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
> >intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
> 
>         Prove it.
> 
>         Produce the documentation that makes that claim.
> 
>         Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or
> have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).
> --
> A quote from Petro's Archives:   **********************************************
> Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government
> of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?
> Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let
> history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural

Give me your telefax number and load your machine with paper.  I'm 
waiting.
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From njohnson at interl.net  Thu Sep 14 20:32:06 2000
From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:32:06 -0500
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: 
Message-ID: <011501c01ec5$86db8d60$0100a8c0@nandts>


Of course being considered an ISP or "provider" may mean you have to comply
with CALEA and provide LEO's wiretap access.

Between a rock and a hard place ?

Of course wiretap access to data encrypted elsewhere wouldn't do anyone much
good.
Maybe traffic analysis.

Neil M. Johnson
njohnson at interl.net
http://www.interl.net/~njohnson
PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7  CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC

----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Sassaman" 
To: 
Cc: "Jay Holovacs" ; "Jodi Hoffman"
; ;

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2000 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I've been running an anonymous remailer since DefCon, when a certain
> speaker motivated me to set one up. I get on average 1 threat of bodily
> harm and 3 threats of lawsuits per day because of this.
>
> To attempt to answer the question "why do you run a remailer", I put up
> the page http://www.melontraffickers.com/remailer.html.
>
> This seems to have the effect of further annoying those who would have
> anonymous remailers outlawed.
>
> I don't enjoy the fact that some people are being harassed through my
> remailer. But I cannot prevent that without limiting the effectiveness of
> the remailer.
>
> Have there been any court rulings that define the level of liability for
> remops whose remailers are used to facilitate criminal actions?
>
> Is someone like myself, running a public remailer, considered an ISP? (I'm
> thinking of the Prodigy ruling, where Prodigy was deemed not responsible
> for content posted on its BBS system.)
>
> - --Len.
>
> On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> > Perhaps an analogy might help make the general case for support of free
> > speech.
> >
> > We may not like what our neighbor is doing with his lawn or house. But
it
> > is in our best interests, generally speaking, to defend his property
> > rights from new laws and regulations because tomorrow our home could be
at
> > risk.
> >
> > -Declan
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000, Jay Holovacs wrote:
> >
> > > How many times do I have to say this. I am *not* protecting them. I am
> > > protecting free speech... my free speech, your free speech.
> > >
> > > This is much more dangerous than you seem to realize. It's tempting to
let
> > > them get 'theirs' because their ideas are ugly to many of us. But if
they
> > > can be held liable for a vicious murder (which they did not advocate
or
> > > instigate) on the part of someone who read their site... what keeps
you from
> > > being held accountable for someone who reads your site then kills a
gay?
> > >
> >
>
> __
>
> L. Sassaman
>
> Security Architect             |  "Lose your dreams and you
> Technology Consultant          |   will lose your mind."
>                                |
> http://sion.quickie.net        |       --The Rolling Stones
>
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Comment: OpenPGP Encrypted Email Preferred.
>
> iD8DBQE5wUiWPYrxsgmsCmoRAuapAKDUQEz8mN67NnioFD2Q2YP/Gfe4zwCgwFZE
> 6ncZVIbwMu5a7dL2ASr2NQY=
> =5U53
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>




From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org  Thu Sep 14 19:49:28 2000
From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 22:49:28 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: New World Coffee Disparagement Sites to be Shutdown?
In-Reply-To: Lizard's message of "Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:41:46 -0400"
References: <3.0.5.32.20000913193627.0394b4b0@mrlizard.com>
Message-ID: <84u2binzdz.fsf@athena.dhis.org>

Lizard  writes:

> At 10:40 PM 9/13/00 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: 
> 
> The company is claiming breach of franchise agreement by franchisees who
> are supposedly  saying unkind things about it.  It is also claiming that
> the domain names newworldcoffefraud.com and newworldfraud.com are likely to
> confuse innocent surfers looking for coffee.
> =======
> Why, yes! When I want to look at the wares of company "X", I often go to
> www.companyxsucks.com, or www.companyxripoff.com!
> 
> Any judge who buys that line of reasoning should be impeached, on the
> grounds our Founding Fathers did not intend that the judiciary be populated
> by fungus.

Hey, now. Some of these incompetent judges are slime molds, and some
are even amoeba. Most aren't vertibrates, in any case. On the other
hand, some members of the fungus kingdom are probably more competent
than the judges in these recent cases.






From jlhoffm at attglobal.net  Thu Sep 14 20:11:48 2000
From: jlhoffm at attglobal.net (Jodi Hoffman)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:11:48 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <775d6f2d7626609e9baa1ebccca08e85@anonymous>
Message-ID: <39C19374.6635@attglobal.net>

Secret Squirrel wrote:
> 
> Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> > If you're serious, send it.  We own a law firm.  Furthermore, a lot of
> > the cases we handle are pro bono, especially when children are involved.
> 
> You "own" a law firm, eh?  Big surprise there.

Why a surprise?
-- 
"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy
R.A.M.P.-Restore America’s Moral Pride

Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
2805 E. OAKLAND PARK BLVD., SUITE 122  FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33306
TELEPHONE (954) 567-0698  TeleFax (954) 630-2280




From honig at sprynet.com  Thu Sep 14 20:22:29 2000
From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:22:29 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000914200810.00914320@pop.sprynet.com>

At 05:53 PM 9/14/00 -0400, L. Sassaman wrote:
>
>I don't enjoy the fact that some people are being harassed through my
>remailer. But I cannot prevent that without limiting the effectiveness of
>the remailer. 
>
>Have there been any court rulings that define the level of liability for
>remops whose remailers are used to facilitate criminal actions?
>
>Is someone like myself, running a public remailer, considered an ISP? (I'm
>thinking of the Prodigy ruling, where Prodigy was deemed not responsible
>for content posted on its BBS system.)
>

Shouldn't your remailer include 1. mention of what it is 2. how to exclude
an address
from being a destination?  

It has not yet reached the supremes, nor do I imagine you want to fund that
path.
We can only hope your upstreams have as much backbone as you.











From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us  Thu Sep 14 20:42:08 2000
From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:42:08 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
References: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20000914161844.00d31ae0@flex.com>
Message-ID: <39C19A79.8749230B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>

Reese wrote:

> Still crossposting liberally, I see.
>
> At 10:05 AM 14/09/00 -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>  >Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to
>  >Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing
>  >the local Nazi encampment.
>
> My own differences with Tim aside, what proof do you have that Tim
> drives past Nazi encampments?  Decry his "statistics abuse" while an
> equally underhanded conjecture emerges from your addled backside?
>
>  >What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs
>  >off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon
>  >is a reasonable or even a sensible response.
>
> Defending racism?  Please show where the defendants in the lawsuit
> were shown to possess such an implement.  It wasn't mentioned in
> this thread, nor do
>

     I think you are misunderstanding what he wrote -- and then you
further confuse the issue with this "defendants....shown to possess"
statement. The AN were the defendants, they clearly did have guns.
However, what I understood Phil to be saying is that the defendants
story about them thinking they were being fired upon, and then chasing
after the car, doesn't make a lot of sense. Would you chase after a car
carrying unkown number of enemy with unkown firepower who had just done
a driveby shooting with you as the target?
       Shoot back at them from behind a safe position, yes, and maybe
chase them if you had an APC, but you'd have to be pretty stupid to run
after them otherwise. And Phil isn't saying that the woman and her kid
had a gun at all, but just that the AN tried to BS everyone with that
story.






From reeza at flex.com  Thu Sep 14 20:55:34 2000
From: reeza at flex.com (Reese)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 23:55:34 -0400
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C19A79.8749230B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>
References: <200009140747.DAA02131@hodge-podge.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20000914174612.00d34f00@flex.com>

At 11:42 PM 9/14/2000 -0400, Harmon Seaver wrote:
 >Reese wrote:
 >
 >> Still crossposting liberally, I see.
 >>
 >> At 10:05 AM 14/09/00 -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
 >>
 >>  >Tim is guilty of statistics abuse, because it never happens to
 >>  >Tim he assumes it can never happen to anyone who is passing
 >>  >the local Nazi encampment.
 >>
 >> My own differences with Tim aside, what proof do you have that Tim
 >> drives past Nazi encampments?  Decry his "statistics abuse" while an
 >> equally underhanded conjecture emerges from your addled backside?
 >>
 >>  >What Tim does not explain is why sending a truck full of thugs
 >>  >off to beat up someone carrying a loaded, recently fired weapon
 >>  >is a reasonable or even a sensible response.
 >>
 >> Defending racism?  Please show where the defendants in the lawsuit
 >> were shown to possess such an implement.  It wasn't mentioned in
 >> this thread, nor do
 >>
 >
 >     I think you are misunderstanding what he wrote -- and then you
 >further confuse the issue with this "defendants....shown to possess"
 >statement. The AN were the defendants,

Oops, you are correct.  The AN are the defendants, the occupants of the
vehicle that backfired are the plaintiffs.  Brainfart.

 >they clearly did have guns.
 >However, what I understood Phil to be saying is that the defendants
 >story about them thinking they were being fired upon, and then chasing
 >after the car, doesn't make a lot of sense. Would you chase after a car
 >carrying unkown number of enemy with unkown firepower who had just done
 >a driveby shooting with you as the target?

You assume they should act, think rationally, by your definition of the word.

 >       Shoot back at them from behind a safe position, yes, and maybe
 >chase them if you had an APC, but you'd have to be pretty stupid to run
 >after them otherwise. And Phil isn't saying that the woman and her kid
 >had a gun at all, but just that the AN tried to BS everyone with that
 >story.

Aye, noted.  Please take note of the US Army response to sudden machinegun 
fire from a bunker, and the US Marine response to it.  Marines have a lower 
life-expectancy in the field for a damn good reason, and while I have no 
way of knowing what prior .mil experience any of those AN members might 
have, I'm not about to assume they would not go charging after a vehicle, 
guns blazing, should they think the occupants of that vehicle had been 
shooting at them.





From petro at bounty.org  Fri Sep 15 00:06:32 2000
From: petro at bounty.org (petro)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 00:06:32 -0700
Subject: CDR: Re: And you thought Nazi agitprop was controversial?
In-Reply-To: <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>
References: <4.3.0.20000912232935.01c1e360@mail.well.com>	
 <3.0.5.32.20000913064702.03929e70@mrlizard.com>	
 <39BF958C.2299@attglobal.net> <007701c01d97$60d1c000$1501a8c0@ang394>	
 <39BFA106.35D3@attglobal.net> <007d01c01d9c$021afa40$1501a8c0@ang394>	
 <39C05AA5.34AE@attglobal.net> 
 <39C18643.323A@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: 

>petro wrote:
>>
>>  >You are wrong to protect them without knowing what they're about, Jay.
>>  >Their motto is, "Sex before eight, or it's too late."  They are
>>  >referring to grown men having sex with an under-eight year old little
>>  >boy.  Surely you don't mean to suggest that a website promoting
>>  >intercourse with a little boy should be protected speech, do you?
>>
>>          Prove it.
>>
>>          Produce the documentation that makes that claim.
>>
>>          Come on. I double dog dare you--and not some stupid joke, or
>>  have wit assertion (which is most of what comes out of your mouth).

	There is this thing called "The internet". It's a wonderful 
method for spreading (dis-) information.

	Scan them, compress them, and mail them to me.
-- 
A quote from Petro's Archives:   ********