This is why a free society is evil.

[Jim Choate]

On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote:

> Tim said that in a free society she wouldn't be able to sue.
> Jim said that Tim is entirely wrong, that in a free society
> she wouldn't be able to sue.   It's true that they give different
> reasons, but I can't see that there's a fundamental conflict here.

No, I said she should be able to sue. To say that a person should not be
able to sue if they feel they have been wronged simply because somebody
wants to make a profit and such an action might impact that profit is NOT
acceptable behaviour from a civil society based on democratic ideals.

> Also, Jim says that "Democratic theory demands that..."
> Theories don't demand things, people do, but most people who
> like democracy demand that whatever the majority wants, it gets.
> (And some say, it ought to get it good and hard.)

Actually theories do demand, in the sense of compliance or adherence. If a 
theory says that a particular boundary condition must apply in order to
apply (eg socialism equates to government ownership and management of all
property including people) and a particular instance doesn't comply then
it's clear another theory is required.

It is the same sort of definition for 'demand' as that used by people to
decide compliance as well. Your distinction is actually a false one.

> Some theories about democracy say that this will always be good,
> because most people are mostly good; some say that this will be
> inherently right because it's what Da People want; some say that
> it may not be all that good but you can do a lot worse with most
> of the available alternatives, and that if you don't settle for that
> the worse alternatives will take over.

We're not talking about what people say. We are talking about the
axiomatic requirements of theories and how to apply them to both pedantic
as well as real world examples.

The basic axiomatic definition of a democracy is pretty simply, the
citizens of the government each get a vote in what that government will
do. The details, whether it might be direct vote or through a bicamaral
house or some other mechanism, still don't change that fundamental
definition.

No realistic theory about democracy says anything about how individuals
will behave. If anything it is an open admission that people are so
diverse and different in goals and desires that it can't be encompessed
within a central organizational approach (eg socialism).

The power of democracy, and the failure of socialism, fascism, anarchism,
libertarianism, etc. is that it not only recognizes that no single set of
goals will satisfy everyone. It recognizes that everyone has a say in what
happens and why. It further, at least in most applications it appears,
seems to recognize the right of minorities to be protected in their
distinctions. In general any time a person feels that anothers behaviour
has infringed their free expression has a right to review by a 3rd party
(ie a court).
 
> Tim, on the other hand, believes that in a free society
> that if you want to run a business you can (or at least you can try).
> Jim repeatedly asserts that running a business is a privilege
> that somebody, I guess Da Majority, graciously grants you,
> and can take away if they want, and that it's somehow not 
> part of freedom.

As I've explained before, a business is the espression of the right to
pursuit happiness. But the point that you and Tim always leave off is that
you have that right UNTIL IT INFRINGES ANOTHER. You habitually ignore that
others have equivalent rights you demand for yourself. In short, liberty
for me but not for thee.

Crypto-anarchy and libertarianism are just another form of fascism at best
and socialism at worst. It's a means for one group of people to oppress
and control another.

    ____________________________________________________________________

           Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a
           smaller group must first understand it.

                                           "Stranger Suns"
                                           George Zebrowski

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage at ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
                           -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
    --------------------------------------------------------------------