From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 1 04:43:34 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:43:34 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... Message-ID: <3A279CB6.C57EBE78@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: > The behaviour of the leading proponents of crypto-anarchy when faced with > 'non-compliant' behaviour is clear evidence of why the philosophy doesn't > work. Hang about! No-one has shot at you, confiscated your computer, tried to block or bomb your nodes, sued you, complained to any government officials about you, or written any nasty letters to your mother. All that has happened is some complaints. You can carry on doing what you want, if you want to put up with others having a lower opinion of you. They can carry on doing what they want & if their opinion gets low enough they can ignore you. If anything this is evidence that anarchy does work, at least in the limited-harm domain of a mailing list. Any functioning political anarchy would have to have more local, personal social sanctions on behaviour than an authoritarian society, not less. More one-to-one sanctions, peer-to-peer political interaction, (RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of economics :-) A state society can rely on one-to-many flows of political or social pressure, the government & big business can deal with people as the masses. A natural outgrowth of the one-to-many techniques of cheap mass communications (OK, maybe Hettinga is right after all). The cypherpunks list is a sandpit of many-to-many communications, a realm in which anarchy is the natural, technologically favoured, form of social control. And complaining about the behaviour of others is exactly the sort of social control you'd expect to see happening in an anarchy. Anarchy is a great way to organise mailing lists, peasant villages, and regular evenings at the pub. Maybe it's a great way to organise large-scale industrial societies as well, it remains to be seen. But anarchy doesn't have to mean nobody tells you what to do - it just means that no one person (natural person like a king, or corporate person, like a state) tells everybody else what to do. In anarchy everyone is free to tell you what to do, and you are free to ignore them. Until you piss them off once too often of course... Ken Brown (wow! an on-topic post for once!) From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 1 08:02:33 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:02:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic Message-ID: I think that what we really need is some kind of NNTP-like system that distributes encrypted packets instead of cleartext ones. If you want to baffle traffic analysis, just create a system where they can't tell the difference between your emails and tons and tons of news traffic. It's not like you could really escape regulation here; if people can't read it, it isn't news. But you could provide a bunch of encrypted traffic on the same port as any encrypted- mail distribution or encrypted-web system (a la freedom) during the news distribution - and you could read news without any news hosts anywhere knowing which news you were reading. Hell, you could even gateway some usenet groups through it if you wanted to give it a kick-start. And you could have your own groups available only on the crypto grapevine. They would serve as message mixes, in some cases. You wouldn't want to follow the classic hierarchical distribution model that usenet uses; that makes any differently-routed traffic stand out. But NNTP is actually pretty flexible about how messages get passed, and could be deployed in a fractal way as easily as a hierarchical way, at the cost of distribution being a bit slower. With straight NNTP, the overhead of organizational messages would be raised; but it could be made more efficient again using hashes on multiple messages so that different hosts could quickly check for identical lists of posts and quickly discover any that were missing in either direction. Bear From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 1 08:30:27 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:30:27 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001201083027.0092f1b0@idiom.com> (Tim and "Riad S. Wahby" have been discussing mail formats for PGP.) Riad's latest message worked fine - it's the first time in a while I've seen Mutt sending PGP-signed messages that were actually readable with Eudora (in other words, they're Just Text, not some kind of broken MIME attachment.) Looks like you're using Mutt 1.2.5i. What settings did you use for other parameters? On my system, by the way, the previous message didn't launch MSWord; it asked me what application to use to read the message (and I told it Notepad, since I expected it to be text.) Tim probably picked one the Evil Empire tool sometime in the past, though perhaps it's a Mac-specific thing. At 11:41 AM 11/30/00 -0500, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > >*** PGP Signature Status: unknown >*** Signer: Unknown, Key ID = 0x1931C6A6 >*** Signed: 11/30/2000 8:41:06 AM >*** Verified: 12/01/2000 7:36:23 AM >*** BEGIN PGP VERIFIED MESSAGE *** > >Tim May wrote: >> No, it _doesn't_ work. Clicking on your "mutt-positron" icon >> presented to me in Eudora caused Microsoft Word to launch on my >> system. Which gave me this message: > >Oh, how embarrassing. I forgot to make the Content-disposition: field >inline instead of attachment. This was the source of the problem for >Eudora. > >I believe that is fixed now, and I've tested it with the copy of >Eudora Pro I have sitting on my Windows box. > >-- >Riad Wahby >rsw at mit.edu >MIT VI-2/A 2002 > >5105 > >*** END PGP VERIFIED MESSAGE *** > > > > Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From xinruanxin at kali.com.cn Fri Dec 1 08:46:53 2000 From: xinruanxin at kali.com.cn (xinruanxin at kali.com.cn) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:46:53 Subject: xinruanxin Message-ID: <20001201004511.IGBI381.public@plain> Please visit my homepage http://www.nease.net/~edward http://xrx.yeah.net There is many game,photo,mp3,book in there ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sohusoft - Search Emailaddress and do mass mailing Marketing for you http://www.flashsendmail.com From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 1 08:56:53 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:56:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: > >> Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] wrote >> >> I think that what we really need is some kind of NNTP-like system >> that distributes encrypted packets instead of cleartext ones. If >> you want to baffle traffic analysis, just create a system where >> they can't tell the difference between your emails and tons and >> tons of news traffic. >> > [...] > > >You mean like the long standing and active news group >alt.anonymous.messages, but different? Yes, different. alt.anonymous.messages is simply a message mix. I'm talking about a system that would provide lots of encrypted traffic *ON THE SAME PORTS* as whatever other encrypted traffic you were sending. IOW, no one should be able to look at logs and say, "well, we can ignore that packet, it's NNTP. This other packet over here is mail, and probably the thing we're after..." In a more general statement, I guess I'm saying that encrypted traffic should not be segregated into different services - at least not so you can tell which are which without decrypting. and furthermore, even high-volume ordinary traffic - like rec.pets.cats - should be distributed by encrypted means, so you can't tell at the protocol level what's inside. Bear From lists at politechbot.com Fri Dec 1 06:13:46 2000 From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:13:46 -0500 Subject: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: <20001129231140.B23196@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 10:50:20PM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> <20001129231140.B23196@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001201093725.A13340@cluebot.com> Vatis ducked out at the last minute and sent his deputy. Cypherpunks will note another familiar face there: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-17/aba-netspionage-broadcast.html -Declan On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 10:50:20PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 04:52:49PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > > I don't know what "NIPC" means, but I thought at first you meant that > > NIPC was in Lithuania. Perhaps not. > > FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center. I'm on an ABA > panel tomorrow with Michael Vatis, the head. Should be cybercast; I'll > find details. > > -Declan > > From declan at well.com Fri Dec 1 06:15:25 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:15:25 -0500 Subject: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73DC@cobra.netsolve.net>; from carskar@netsolve.net on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 12:32:29PM -0500 References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73DC@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: <20001201093916.B13340@cluebot.com> I'm not bragging; I'm simply stating facts. It is not unreasonable, or unexpected, for journalists to know the bureaucrats and politicians whom they write about. I have met Mike; I was on a panel with him in NYC circa June. I've also seen him at other events. -Declan On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 12:32:29PM -0500, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > And you are bragging about this? Jeez. Have you MET the guy yet? > So tell us, what was discussed, and where can we find it? > > > -----Original Message----- > X-Loop: openpgp.net > From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 9:50 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking > > > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 04:52:49PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > > I don't know what "NIPC" means, but I thought at first you meant that > > NIPC was in Lithuania. Perhaps not. > > FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center. I'm on an ABA > panel tomorrow with Michael Vatis, the head. Should be cybercast; I'll > find details. > > -Declan > From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Fri Dec 1 09:52:34 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:52:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pigs Blind Woman, Then Arrest Her for "Interfering" Message-ID: <200012011752.eB1HqYr00439@artifact.psychedelic.net> A further deminstration that all the citizen-units in Los Angeles are not worth one cop's manicure. http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/national/ap213.htm ----- LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A Los Angeles Police Department officer shot a beauty salon owner three times with a beanbag shotgun because he thought she was reaching in her jacket for a weapon. The shooting early Monday severely injured one of Annette Amoroso's eyes and she was expected to lose the eye. Amoroso, 38, said in an interview from her hospital room Thursday that officers ordered her to the ground as they investigated a report early Monday that the sport utility vehicle she was riding in was stolen. ''I was on my knees, with my hands up, and my back to them,'' Amoroso told the Los Angeles Times. ''First, they shot me in the shoulder. As I started to turn around, they shot me in the eye.'' ... Amoroso was expected to have her right eye removed Friday. She was arrested on suspicion of interfering with an investigation. ... -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From hahaha at sexyfun.net Fri Dec 1 07:09:32 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:09:32 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012011508.KAA29789@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sexy virgin.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Dec 1 07:28:12 2000 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:28:12 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Message-ID: Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Fri Dec 1 07:36:13 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:36:13 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BD8@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 680 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Fri Dec 1 07:42:15 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:42:15 -0500 Subject: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001201074139.008172c0@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:25 AM 12/1/00 -0500, Gil Hamilton wrote: >Norton AntiVirus found a virus in an attachment from Hahaha. > You had to check? [Transl for Unixen: a .scr under Windoze is a screensaver, ie, executable.] From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Fri Dec 1 08:12:50 2000 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:12:50 -0500 Subject: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" References: <3.0.6.32.20001201074139.008172c0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <006b01c05bb1$3a610630$05d3ae95@zh8qw> YES. NORTON ANTIVIRUS BLOCKED IT. Pier Carlo Montecucchi Montegen ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "David Honig" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" > At 10:25 AM 12/1/00 -0500, Gil Hamilton wrote: > >Norton AntiVirus found a virus in an attachment from Hahaha. > > > > You had to check? > > [Transl for Unixen: a .scr under Windoze is a screensaver, ie, executable.] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 1 08:16:22 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:16:22 -0500 Subject: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: <20001201093725.A13340@cluebot.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 9:13 AM -0500 on 12/1/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Cypherpunks > will note another familiar face there: > > http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-17/aba-netspionage-broadcast.html Stewwwwieeeee!!!! The man who personally told Mr. Pizza Connection, Looie "The Tap" Freeh, the only man in legal history to make his AAG bones on wiretap data alone, that the crypto pony was out of the barn and that he'd better hurry up and catch it before it got away. Pity he left on his Gucci loafers instead of changing into his Green Wellies. Yuck, Looie, wipe off your feet before you go into the Oval office, next time. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From hahaha at sexyfun.net Fri Dec 1 08:23:54 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:23:54 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012011623.LAA05481@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: midgets.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Dec 1 08:28:24 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:28:24 -0500 Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic Message-ID: > Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] wrote > > I think that what we really need is some kind of NNTP-like system > that distributes encrypted packets instead of cleartext ones. If > you want to baffle traffic analysis, just create a system where > they can't tell the difference between your emails and tons and > tons of news traffic. > [...] You mean like the long standing and active news group alt.anonymous.messages, but different? Peter Trei From ericm at lne.com Fri Dec 1 08:34:33 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:34:33 -0500 Subject: IBM Cries Crypto Wolf, Experts Say In-Reply-To: <734f3334a3b95bdadc44217866bbf5fc@anon.xg.nu>; from no.user@anon.xg.nu on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 08:42:07PM -0500 References: <734f3334a3b95bdadc44217866bbf5fc@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: <20001201083346.F10845@slack.lne.com> On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 08:42:07PM -0500, No User wrote: > > Big Blue says it can make encryption twice as fast. But the company hyped a similar advancement years ago; experts say that idea didn't amount to much, and this one won't either. > By Elinor Abreu > IBM is announcing a new algorithm on Thursday that it says will double the speed at which online communications are encrypted. But several crypto experts say that IBM is fixing something that isn't broken and that Big Blue has a history of tooting its horn needlessly. > > IBM's new as-yet-unnamed security algorithm simultaneously encrypts and authenticates messages. It works with symmetric cryptography in which the same secret key, or mathematical code, is used to encrypt and decrypt, as opposed to public key cryptography, in which two different keys are used. The new algorithm has been submitted to the U.S. Patent Office and proposed to the National Institute of Standards. I'm guessing what's described above is this: ************************* Stanford Security Seminar Charanjit Jutla of IBM Watson Thursday, Dec 7 at 4:15pm (Note unusual day) Gates 4B area ************************* Encryption Modes with Almost Free Message Integrity We define a new mode of operation for block encryption which in addition to assuring confidentiality also assures message integrity. In contrast, previously for message integrity a separate pass was required to compute a cryptographic message authentication code (MAC). The new mode of operation, called Integrity Aware CBC (IACBC), requires a total of m+log m block encryptions on a plain-text of length m blocks. The well known CBC (cipher block chaining) mode requires m block encryptions. The second pass of computing the CBC-MAC essentially requires additional m block encryptions. A new highly parallelizable mode (IAPM) is also shown to be secure for both encryption and message integrity. We also show a lower bound of Omega(log m) additional block encryptions for any reasonably modeled (linear) scheme which assures message integrity along with confidentiality. See http://crypto.stanford.edu/seclab/sem.html -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From rsw at MIT.EDU Fri Dec 1 08:41:32 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:41:32 -0500 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001201083027.0092f1b0@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 08:30:27AM -0800 References: <3.0.5.32.20001201083027.0092f1b0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20001201114132.A27253@positron.mit.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1220 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Dec 1 08:59:09 2000 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:59:09 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Message-ID: Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Fri Dec 1 08:59:39 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:59:39 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BDA@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 675 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 1 09:01:10 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:01:10 -0500 Subject: Two MS mail viruses - SnowWhite and ShockwaveFlash In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001201074139.008172c0@pop.sprynet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001201090047.01ab9650@idiom.com> Well, we've got two gifts from Microsoft's email architecture going around this week. Not only is there the Snow White thing, but there's a Shockwave Flash thing that's spreading around as well. I don't know if it autoexecutes on Outlook, or if it's just an IBM-Christmas-Tree attack that entices users to click on it, but either way, don't be surprised if you get attachments sent to real email programs, and don't be surprised if email to/from big corporations using Exchange gets doggy for a while. There's more information on the Shockwave thing at vil.nai.com Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 1 09:03:10 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:03:10 -0500 Subject: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" In-Reply-To: <006b01c05bb1$3a610630$05d3ae95@zh8qw> Message-ID: No, it did not block it. I got the executable in a posting from openpgp.com. However, since I run Linux, it's pretty irrelevant to me. :-) Bear On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Pier Carlo Montecucchi wrote: >YES. > >NORTON ANTIVIRUS BLOCKED IT. > >Pier Carlo Montecucchi >Montegen > > >----- Original Message ----- >X-Loop: openpgp.net >From: "David Honig" >To: "Multiple recipients of list" >Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 10:42 AM >Subject: Re: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" > > >> At 10:25 AM 12/1/00 -0500, Gil Hamilton wrote: >> >Norton AntiVirus found a virus in an attachment from Hahaha. >> > >> >> You had to check? >> >> [Transl for Unixen: a .scr under Windoze is a screensaver, ie, >executable.] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Dec 1 13:50:04 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:50:04 -0800 Subject: Pigs Blind Woman, Then Arrest Her for "Interfering" Message-ID: <3A281D0C.B2FCE63A@lsil.com> It's a top-down problem. They're only doing what they believe is their job as defined by their controllers. These sort of events just show what those in power think of their fellow citizens. Expect it to get worse if we get a Republican-controlled government and the resulting Republican Supreme Court appointees. Just look at the dissenters in the recent Indianapolis Drug Search decision. The Republicans seem to be more authoritarian than the Democrats though overall they both stink like last week's fish guts. From declan at well.com Fri Dec 1 11:16:29 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 14:16:29 -0500 Subject: Feds get a raise, thanks, Bill Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001201141613.01b6f0e0@mail.well.com> THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary _________________________________________________________________ For Immediate Release December 1, 2000 TEXT OF A LETTER FROM THE PRESIDENT TO THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE November 30, 2000 Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President:) I am transmitting an alternative plan for Federal employee locality-based comparability payments (locality pay) for 2001. Federal employees are the key to effective Government performance. During the last 8 years, the number of Federal employees has declined while their responsibilities have stayed the same or increased. Nonetheless, recent surveys show the American public believes it is now getting better quality and more responsible service from our Federal employees. We need to provide them fair and equitable compensation to recognize their important role, and to enable the Federal Government to continue to attract and retain a high-quality workforce. Under title 5, United States Code, most Federal civilian employees would receive a two-part pay raise in January 2001: (1) a 2.7 percent base salary raise linked to the part of the Employment Cost Index (ECI) that deals with changes in the wages and salaries of private industry workers; and (2) a locality pay raise, based on the Bureau of Labor Statistics' salary surveys of non-Federal employers in local pay areas, that would cost about 12.3 percent of payroll. Thus, on a cost-of-payroll basis, the total Federal employee pay increase for most employees would be about 15 percent in 2001. For each part of the two-part pay increase, title 5 gives me the authority to implement an alternative pay adjustment plan if I view the pay adjustment that would otherwise take effect as inappropriate because of "national emergency or serious economic conditions affecting the general welfare." Over the past three decades, Presidents have used this or similar authority for most annual Federal pay raises. In evaluating "an economic condition affecting the general welfare," the law directs me to consider such economic measures as the Index of Leading Economic Indicators, the Gross National Product, the unemployment rate, the budget deficit, the Consumer Price Index, the Producer Price Index, the Employment Cost Index, and the Implicit Price Deflator for Personal Consumption Expenditures. Earlier this year, I decided that I would implement -- effective in January 2001 -- the full 2.7 percent base salary adjustment. As a result, it was not necessary to transmit an alternative pay plan by the legal deadline (August 31) for that portion of the pay raise. In assessing the appropriate locality pay adjustment for 2001, I reviewed the indicators cited above along with other major economic indicators. As noted above, the full locality pay increases, when combined with the 2.7 percent base salary increase, would produce a total Federal civilian payroll increase of about 15 percent for most employees. In fiscal year (FY) 2001 alone, this increase would add $9.8 billion above the cost of the 3.7 percent increase I proposed in the fiscal 2001 Budget. A 15 percent increase in Federal pay would mark a fundamental change of our successful policy of fiscal discipline, and would invite serious economic risks -- in terms of the workings of the Nation's labor markets; inflation; the costs of maintaining Federal programs; and the impact of the Federal budget on the economy as a whole. First, an across-the-board 15 percent increase in Federal pay scales would be disruptive to labor markets across the country. This increase would be three to four times the recent average annual changes in private-sector compensation, built into the base of the pay structure not just for 2001, but for subsequent years as well. With job markets already tight and private firms reporting great difficulties in attracting and retaining skilled employees, this increase in Federal salaries could pull prospective job seekers away from private employment opportunities. Second, in the face of such a large Federal pay increase, private firms would almost certainly react by increasing their own wage offers. Thus, beyond the labor-market disruption of such a Federal pay increase, there would follow a serious risk of inflation; and that risk would far exceed the direct effects of the Federal pay raise taken in isolation. Pay rates economy-wide have already enticed a record percentage of the adult population into the labor force and paid employment. There are few unemployed or underemployed workers available for hire; if private firms need additional labor, they must raise their wage offers to attract workers from other firms. Such bidding wars for labor -- which constitutes roughly two-thirds of business costs in this economy -- have been at or near the core of all inflationary outbursts in our recent history. To date, intense competitive pressures have prevented private firms from allowing their wage offers to step out of line with productivity gains, and inflationary pressures have remained contained. However, a shock arising outside of the competitive labor market itself -- such as an administratively determined Federal pay increase -- could convince private business managers that they must increase their offers beyond the current norms. In the past to reverse accelerating inflation, the Nation paid an enormous toll through policies designed to slow the economy and reduce the pressure on prices. In numerous instances, the result was recession and sharp increases in unemployment. With labor markets as tight as they are we should not undertake a policy likely to shock the labor market. Third, Federal program managers are already under considerable pressure to meet their budgets, while still providing quality service to the taxpayers. Increasing the Federal employment costs at such an extraordinary rate would render those budgets inadequate to provide the planned level of services. Appropria-tions for the coming fiscal year have already been legislated for much of the Federal Government, and all sides hope that spending bills for the remaining agencies will pass in the very near future. In particular, agencies that have the greatest responsibility for person-to-person service -- the Social Security Administration, the Internal Revenue Service, and the Veterans Affairs healthcare programs, to name just three -- could not be expected to bear double-digit pay increases without the most thorough review and adjustment of their budgets. Finally, despite the current budget surpluses, the Federal Government continues to face substantial budgetary challenges. When my Administration took office in January 1993, we faced the largest budget deficit in the Nation's history -- over $290 billion in fiscal year (FY) 1992. By the projections of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), and every other authority, the deficit would only get bigger. Furthermore, under both of these projections, the public debt, and the interest burden from that debt, were expected to be in a vicious upward cycle. While we have pulled the budget back from this crisis, and in fact we have enjoyed the first budget surpluses since l969, adverse budgetary forces are just a few years away. The Social Security system will come under increasing pressure with the impending retirement of the large baby-boom generation. In addition, the aging of the population will increase costs for Medicare and Medicaid. If we become complacent because of the current budget surplus and increase spending now, the surplus could well be gone even before the baby-boom generation retires. My Administration has put these budgetary challenges front and center. A 15 percent Federal pay increase, built into the Government's cost base for all succeeding years, would be a dangerous step away from budget discipline. The budgetary restraint that produced the current budget surpluses must be maintained if we are to keep the budget sound into the retirement years of the baby boom generation. Therefore, I have determined that the total civilian raise of 3.7 percent that I proposed in my 2001 Budget remains appropriate. This raise matches the 3.7 percent basic pay increase that I proposed for military members in my 2001 Budget, and that was enacted in the FY 2001 Defense Authorization Act. Given the 2.7 percent base salary increase, the total increase of 3.7 percent allows an amount equal to 1.0 percent of payroll for increases in locality payments. Accordingly, I have determined that: Under the authority of section 5304a of title 5, United States Code, locality-based comparability payments in the amounts set forth on the attached table shall become effective on the first day of the first applicable pay period beginning on or after January 1, 2001. When compared with the payments currently in effect, these comparability payments will increase the General Schedule payroll by about 1.0 percent. Finally, the law requires that I include in this report an assessment of how my decisions will affect the Government's ability to recruit and retain well-qualified employees. I do not believe this will have any material impact on the quality of our workforce. If the needs arise, the Government can use many pay tools -- such as recruitment bonuses, retention allowances, and special salary rates -- to maintain the high-quality workforce that serves our Nation so very well. Sincerely, WILLIAM J. CLINTON # # # Locality-Based Comparability Payments Under Alternative Plan Comparability Payment Pay Locality (1) Effective January 2001 Atlanta MSA 8.66% Boston CMSA 12.13% Chicago CMSA 13.00% Cincinnati CMSA 10.76% Cleveland CMSA 9.17% Columbus MSA 9.61% Dallas CMSA 9.71% Dayton MSA 8.60% Denver CMSA 11.90% Detroit CMSA 13.14% Hartford MSA 12.65% Houston CMSA 16.66% Huntsville MSA 8.12% Indianapolis MSA 7.89% Kansas City MSA 8.32% Los Angeles CMSA 14.37% Miami CMSA 11.09% Milwaukee CMSA 8.91% Minneapolis MSA 10.30% New York CMSA 13.62% Orlando MSA 7.71% Philadelphia CMSA 10.80% Pittsburgh MSA 8.54% Portland CMSA 10.32% Richmond MSA 8.60% Sacramento CMSA 10.73% St. Louis MSA 8.00% San Diego MSA 11.31% San Francisco CMSA 16.98% Seattle CMSA 10.45% Washington CMSA 10.23% Rest of United States 7.68% From frissell at panix.com Fri Dec 1 11:19:35 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 14:19:35 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Real howler from Wired News: Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann 2:00 a.m. Dec. 1, 2000 PST BERLIN -- News this week that a Munich state prosecutor was investigating allegations that Yahoo Deutschland had sold copies of Mein Kampf could help build momentum in Germany for more sweeping restrictions on such material.... http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40430,00.html Attention Germans. It is trivially easy to buy a book that your keepers don't want you to buy. Click here to search the best used book met search engine to find copies of Mein Kampf: http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/submitRare.cgi?order=TITLE&ordering=ASC&author=&title=Mein+Kampf&keyword=&submit=Find+the+Book&isbn=&match=Y&dispCurr=USD&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&StoreAbebooks=on&StoreAlibris=on&StoreAntiqbook=on&StoreBibliofind=on&StoreBiblion=on&StoreBookCloseOuts=on&StoreBookAvenue=on&StoreGutenberg=on&StoreHalf=on&StoreJustBooks=on&StorePowells=on You will currently find some 330 copies (minus dupes) for sale at various used book stores in the US. You are guaranteed to find one willing to ship you a copy. DCF Johnny had four truckloads of plutonium. Johnny used four truckloads of plutonium to light New York City for a year. Then how many truckloads of plutonium did Johnny have? Six! -- Breeder reactor ad from the glory days of nuclear power at the Edison Electric Institute. 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Please contact your local System Administrator. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 1 14:11:48 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:11:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: BOUNCE hell@einstein.ssz.com: Non-member submission from ["Gregory G. Foster" ] (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:37:11 -0600 From: owner-hell at ssz.com To: owner-hell at einstein.ssz.com Subject: BOUNCE hell at einstein.ssz.com: Non-member submission from ["Gregory G. Foster" ] >From owner-hell at ssz.com Fri Dec 1 12:37:06 2000 Received: from www.navigo.com ([216.30.16.18]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00956 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:37:05 -0600 Received: from navigo.com (cs2748-191.austin.rr.com [24.27.48.191]) by www.navigo.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA17301; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:28:21 -0600 Message-ID: <3A27F1C7.3CFB3B7B at navigo.com> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 12:45:27 -0600 From: "Gregory G. Foster" Organization: Navigo X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Farmers, Navigo" , The Club Inferno , "Russell, Debbie" , "Davis, Christopher" , "Horton, Jeff" , "Goertz, Ryan" , "Clancy-Goertz, Donna" , "Lofgren, Chris" , "Hunter, Basel" , "O'Hare, Sheilagh" Subject: Follow up on N30 protests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the outside observer, the celebration of the anniversary of the Seattle WTO protests seemed to transpire in relative peace during the day; but the concluding note of the evening seemed pretty sad to me. The Seattle police department seems to have created a situation in which the only possible outcome was mass arrests and a spiritually crushing exposition of state force. <<<<< Kristoff Loftgreen wrote: >>>>> im not sure how much news makes it out of here but things did get a little crazy after the sun went down last night, which in these parts is around 4:20. the police forced all the protesters out of westlake center around eight or so south west into belltown. they then started using their storm trooper tactics of intimidation wearing full riot gear and stomp marching down the street. they completely surrounded all of the protestors and then closed in on them, arrested most of them. the was some resistence. then theyre was a pretty violent beating of a man up on capital hill. dont know if this video made it out of this market. pretty disgusting. king5.com is the local NBC affiliate and has quite a bit of good coverage on last nights happenings. <<<<< >>>>> Police defend use of force against protesters - good video here http://www.king5.com/detailtopstory.html?StoryID=9631 CNN coverage - fun to deconstruct. Always the first thing mentioned in major media coverage: "A police captain suffered an eye injury when he was hit by an object thrown by someone in the crowd..." giving them justification to use force, correct? And their video caption "Watch the protest" - much safer than participating... http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/12/01/wto.anniversary.demo.02/index.html CNN has the most damning video footage I have yet encountered. This must be seen to be believed. It is an excellent 3 minute video showing the leaders of the evening protesters desperately attempting to _negotiate_ a way out of their entrapment by police. They attempt first with the cops on the east street, the most direct route to the safe harbor of the labor temple. These cops say they should go talk to the north cops. So, they go attempt to negotiate with the cops on the northern street - who are more amenable, but worry about letting the protesters out who then might "change their minds" about going to the labor temple; the cops want everyone to go home. No promises are made, but this cop is quite civil and wants to work out a solution, aware of his "dilemma." So, the protest leaders return to the now quite nervous protesters, and attempt to relay the situation. The stomping of boots from the southern or western corridor is heard and the protest leader at the end utters "I know they're behind us, right..." into the megaphone. And the arrests begin. We lack the prior context here about what happened to supposedly justify the cops marching the protesters into a trap. What were these 200 protesters doing before this time? Was the protest degenerating or was it still peaceful? Were the cops just fed up and wanting to go home? This context seems to be absent from the record. Labor organizers were offered quick release from jail by Seattle Mayor Schell early this morning. "...they refused and stayed in solidarity with the others who were arrested." http://seattle.indymedia.org/ from last year: "This is what a police state looks like." http://seattle.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=1585 g :~=~_~=/-\=~_~=~:~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~:~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~: : Gregory G. Foster gregf at navigo.com : a Navigo Farmer "we breathe in the hopes of speaking the spirit : we move in the hopes of meeting the soul" :~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~:~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~:~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~: From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 1 16:21:38 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:21:38 -0800 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001201172134.01b72350@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001201172134.01b72350@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 5:21 PM -0500 12/1/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/supreme-court-bush-gore-arguments.html I noticed the guy down on his knees...was he expecting the Republicans to give him a bullet to the base of the neck? Frankly, I think much of Al Gore's desperation comes from his realization that if he loses, he'll face prosecution for his treason vis-a-vis the Chinese. And, as someone pointed out to me recently, if Al Gore has no power, the Chinese won't need him around. In fact, he becomes a positive liability for them, in terms of testimony, plea bargains, memoirs, careless comments. They may choose to retire him with extreme prejudice. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From boards-register at yahoo-inc.com Fri Dec 1 16:25:54 2000 From: boards-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:25:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Message Boards Message-ID: <200012020025.QAA79583@e5.my.yahoo.com> Welcome to Yahoo! DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT. This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. Your Yahoo! ID is: nomenisco Your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com We will use this address to contact you if you ever forget your Yahoo! ID or password. To learn how to change this address, read below. ********************************************************** WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT? You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of Yahoo's free, personalized services. My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com Yahoo Calendar - http://calendar.yahoo.com Yahoo Chat - http://chat.yahoo.com Yahoo Classifieds - http://classifieds.yahoo.com Yahoo Clubs - http://clubs.yahoo.com Yahoo Finance - http://quote.yahoo.com Yahoo Games - http://play.yahoo.com Yahoo GeoCities - http://geocities.yahoo.com Yahoo Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo Message Boards - http://messages.yahoo.com Yahoo Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.com Yahoo Travel - http://travel.yahoo.com To see a full list go to http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/family/more.html You can return to Yahoo! 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Help Central at: http://help.yahoo.com/ ********************************************************** IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the following address: http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKeXh6Ynl%2bdGR4OI4heUo2ZHx9enR7MjIxM3tjIXVKTjAyMDYxMDIzIXNKemU%3d If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL above, please use the following deletion key: IXtKeXh6Ynl+dGR4OI4heUo2ZHx9enR7MjIxM3tjIXVKTjAyMDYxMDIzIXNKemU= Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your reply) with REMOVE as the subject line. [63.161.101.132] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6693 bytes Desc: not available URL: From my-login-request at yahoo-inc.com Fri Dec 1 16:26:13 2000 From: my-login-request at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:26:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yahoo! Email Verification Message-ID: <200012020026.QAA22047@e16.yahoo.com> Hi, nomenisco You recently were asked to verify your email address(es) with Yahoo!. You will receive one email per unverified address. Please follow the instructions below to complete the verification process. If you did not request this message, or believe you have received it in error, please skip to the instructions at the end of this mail. TO VERIFY THIS ADDRESS (cypherpunks at toad.com): 1. If your email reader will allow you to click on links, click the following link. If not enter the url into your browser: http://verify.yahoo.com/v/recv?X61bf 2. When the page appears in your browser, check if that the Confirmation Code box matches the one below, if it does not, change it accordingly: *************CONFIRMATION CODE**************** X61bf *************CONFIRMATION CODE**************** 3. Next enter your Yahoo! Password in the space provided. 4. Then on that page, click the "Verify My Account" button. IS THIS NOT YOUR ACCOUNT? If you did not request this verification, you can click the link below to remove this email address from this account. http://verify.yahoo.com/v/remove?.k=X61bf&.lid=HQzg8RujRKgT8UY4 Regards, Yahoo! Support Team From sunder at sunder.net Fri Dec 1 13:41:30 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 16:41:30 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... References: Message-ID: <3A281B0A.344A22C6@sunder.net> Jim Choate wrote: > > The list, by consensus of the operators, has a 1M file size limit. If you > can't handle it don't ask others to discard inches... Jim, quit being an ass. Just because there is a limit doesn't mean you should strive to reach it. > Oh, and to actually return to Sunders original point of copyright. Editing > the copyrighted file actually shows intent. No, it's called fair use. And no, you don't EDIT it, you quote one paragraph or two out of the entire story, and you post the url so those who are interested can go off and read it. Sending the whole entire thing isn't fair use. > At least my excuse is the god > damned software is intentionaly designed to force the behaviour. Poor excuse. You aren't at the mercy of your software. Learn to use your mouse. Learn to use the edit menu. Drag your mouse over the first paragraph, right click, select copy. Hit Control-M in Netscape since that's what you're claiming to be using, click in the body, right click, select paste. Congratulations you've just quoted a paragraph. Now, hit Alt-Tab to go back to the browser window, click on the url and highlight it by dragging or double clicking it. Right click, select copy, or hit Control-C. Now Alt-Tab back to your message, click somewhere where you want to paste the url, right click and select paste. Why is that so hard? > You are of course always welcome to keep whinning. Empower the individual! See above. Consider yourself empowered. > The behaviour of the leading proponents of crypto-anarchy when faced with > 'non-compliant' behaviour is clear evidence of why the philosophy doesn't > work. Cypherpunks is a mailing list composed of servers and users. Just as it would be off topic to talk about carpet cleaning solutions or your favorite brand of toilet paper because you'd piss off those with whom you wish to share, it's not useful to most of us for you to post big huge chunks of HTML blobs and force us to drag cookies and images in from the web site they came in from. The reason I even bother to tell you this is because I usually find the articles you post intesteresting, but it would be more useful if they weren't such huge hogs. But hey, at some point, you weigh the benefit versus the trouble of dealing with huge messages and the balance tips over. At that point, you go into the killfile. Nothing personal, but if you waste my time and bandwidth for something marginally interesting, I'll decide to not waste my time any longer. That others agree or not is up to them. It's not a demand. It's not a mandate. It's a request. Analogy: Say were in a hunting club that decides to share the bounty: Say, I go off and shoot wild boars, and leave you a leg once in a while, some ribs to someone else, a leg to another, etc. On the other hand, you went out in the woods and shot some deer and dropped several carcases, bleeding and still not gutted, some still alive and pain, off on my doorstep, I might be quite happy to enjoy some vennison. But if you did it every day, I'd find too much vennison a pest rather than a boon. Now, I go and ask you, "Thanks much for the favor, I appreciate it, but it's too much, could you just leave me no more than a leg once a month?" [Or an even better analogy, rather than bringing me carcases, tell me where you've picked them off, so if I need more meat or trophies, I can hunt them down myself.] If you go off spewing about dictatorships and holier than thou, I have no choice but to think that you're a loon and ask you to no longer bring me any vennison and I no longer provide you with bacon. If it still shows up on my property bleeding and messy and more than I need, then I lock my gate to you. In a free society you're free to do whatever you like. That includes pissing people off for sure. But that includes the ability to complain to others whose behaviour is somewhat beneficial, but in being excessive becomes detrimental. It includes the ability to ask those who piss you off to cease doing so. Sure, it's up to them to do so or not. But in free society, no one should be forced to live with abusive behaviors from others either. [Hint: the difference between this and socialism is that in socialism, you're not only forced to live with the bores, but you're forced to buy them a free drink, meal and housing every so often.] You should be free to ask others who share a resource to do so in a way that makes the majority of its members happy. No, this isn't about democracy, it's about common courtesy. And when they say, "I don't know how to do that" you can of course show them how, but what would YOU do when they refuse and insist on continuing? -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From honig at sprynet.com Fri Dec 1 14:14:21 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:14:21 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001201141355.00820100@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:21 PM 12/1/00 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: > >Attention Germans. It is trivially easy to buy a book that your keepers >don't want you to buy. Even easier. You can find the text online at http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/ Don't tell the Germans. From honig at sprynet.com Fri Dec 1 14:14:21 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:14:21 -0500 Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001201140731.00818690@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:58 AM 12/1/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >Yes, different. alt.anonymous.messages is simply a message mix. >I'm talking about a system that would provide lots of encrypted >traffic *ON THE SAME PORTS* as whatever other encrypted traffic >you were sending. IOW, no one should be able to look at logs and >say, "well, we can ignore that packet, it's NNTP. This other >packet over here is mail, and probably the thing we're after..." Do you really think all those pictures flying about on pictures-binary newsgroups are really of what they seem to be? :-) Look beneath the flab. Steganography. Crypto implications of cheap scanners, and a year or so later, affordable digital cameras. Even some hidden cargo compartments in MP3. From declan at well.com Fri Dec 1 14:21:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 17:21:43 -0500 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001201172134.01b72350@mail.well.com> http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/supreme-court-bush-gore-arguments.html From publicidad at worldspain.com Fri Dec 1 14:25:57 2000 From: publicidad at worldspain.com (publicidad at worldspain.com) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:25:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Spanish'stamps 10% OFF Message-ID: <200012012225.RAA15508@mail.virtual-estates.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3847 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Fri Dec 1 15:32:34 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:32:34 -0500 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today References: <4.3.0.20001201172134.01b72350@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3A28358E.CDCCDDF8@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Nice shots, Declan. The first two look positively surreal, especially the cops. 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No one is better qualified to help you than Rob.) Please respond to this letter with the subject line "Latin Goddess" and Let's get started making all your dreams come true. My Warmest Regards Be Blessed Luz Sanchez What are you waiting for? Act Now before someone else meets The Girl of Your Dreams before you! You are receiving this message because you have either subscribed to one of my ffa-pages, newsletters or we have corresponded in the past. I respect your privacy. If you do not wish to receive any further messages or updates, please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "remove" and we will immediately remove your e-mail address from our database. Thank you. From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Dec 1 17:16:36 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:16:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today Message-ID: <200012020116.UAA09709@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Alright, Declan using his Nikon Coolpix 950! Screw that analog stuff. Got 340Mb? At 5:21 PM -0500 12/1/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: # http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/supreme-court-bush-gore-arguments.html The Reverend Al Sharpton, working off more weight. Hey, they get to use bullhorns in DC? We can't even use a stick to hold up a sign here in NYC! Our resident racist prosecutor & fantasy killer Tim May wrote: # # I noticed the guy down on his knees...was he expecting the # Republicans to give him a bullet to the base of the neck? Huh? What is going on in what's left of your brain? Our resident racist prosecutor & fantasy killer Tim May wrote: # # Frankly, I think much of Al Gore's desperation comes from his # realization that if he loses, he'll face prosecution for his # treason vis-a-vis the Chinese. And, as someone pointed out to # me recently, if Al Gore has no power, the Chinese won't need # him around. In fact, he becomes a positive liability for them, # in terms of testimony, plea bargains, memoirs, careless comments. # They may choose to retire him with extreme prejudice. Gore wants to be president so he won't be killed? World-class lame lamentations. From petro at bounty.org Fri Dec 1 20:31:13 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:31:13 -0800 Subject: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001128142838.0080adc0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> <3.0.6.32.20001128142838.0080adc0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: >At 06:54 AM 11/28/00 -0500, Ken Brown wrote: >>Of course if they leave the machine [Carnivore] in the cage you can always >stop >>feeding it electricity. Or take it home to show the neighbours. It might >>make a good conversation piece at dinner. Or maybe use it as an ashtray. > >>At 10:36 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >>CALEA has some onerous language in it, but it doesn't trump the >>Fourth Amendment. > > >You could try the Carnivore box against an implemention of your Second >Amendment rights. Unless the chassis were hardened you'd win. I seriously doubt they make NT boxes that are hardened against a .50 BMG. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From commerce at home.com Fri Dec 1 19:23:11 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:23:11 -0500 Subject: Pigs Blind Woman, Then Arrest Her for "Interfering" References: <3A281D0C.B2FCE63A@lsil.com> Message-ID: <019001c05c0f$33a99330$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: > we get a Republican-controlled government and the resulting Republican > Supreme Court appointees. Just look at the dissenters in the recent > Indianapolis Drug Search decision. The Republicans seem to be more > authoritarian than the Democrats though overall they both stink like they all suck, but the republicans seem to suck less overall. in example, look at thomas' dissent in that case; stare decisis drove him there, but he was open to tossing the whole POS framework for other legal roadside searches. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 1 19:41:56 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:41:56 -0500 Subject: Yahoo Ruling: "Don't Roll Your Eyes..." Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From unsubs-NEWSLETTER113000-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.myspace.com Fri Dec 1 23:37:01 2000 From: unsubs-NEWSLETTER113000-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.myspace.com (Myspace.com) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 23:37:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free Skins and Downloads from myspace! Message-ID: <200012020737.XAA19549@toad.com> Dear Myspace user, Welcome back, loyal myspace users. We have good news for you PLUS great product offers in this newsletter. Read on to find out more. Featured Sponsor- Get 3 Books for $1.99 each and get one FREE! http://scbc.booksonline.com/cgi-bin/ndCGI.exe/Develop/pagHome?clubId=SCB&promo=303_01_az_224_876_1191 In this issue: 1. Have you registered your name? http://www.register.com/index.cgi?SOURCE=myspace-nov 2. Improve your Web Browser.... FREE! http://www.neoplanet.com/splash/522splash/_myspace.html 3. Win a Porsche Boxster 4. Find Holiday Gifts at Myspace 5. Participate in an Auction and Support a Worthy Cause ******************Myspace Featured Sponsor****************** Get 3 books for $1.99 each and get one FREE with membership to Computer Books Direct, your source for the most comprehensive books on the topics you want-at the best value! Choose from great book titles such as: The Digital Photography Bible, Sams Teach Yourself e-Music Today, Real World Scanning with Halftones, & Non-Designer's Scan and Print Book. http://scbc.booksonline.com/cgi-bin/ndCGI.exe/Develop/pagHome?clubId=SCB&promo=303_01_az_224_876_1191 ************************************************************ 1. Have you registered your name? They're going quick! Go to Register.com today and register your domain name before someone else does. Register.com, the first step on the web. http://www.register.com/index.cgi?SOURCE=myspace-nov _______________________________________________________________ 2. FREE Browser Skins! The NeoPlanet Browser is Your Fast, Free, and Easy way to Surf. Get it Now! Take control of your Internet experience! The NeoPlanet Browser combines the most essential Internet tools and services into one easy-to-use, free application. Over 500 FREE skins to choose from! 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You can then purchase all the top selling games, or select from a wide range of other products offered directly from the myspace site. __________________________________________________________ 5. Participate in an auction and support a worthy cause Myspace has proudly partnered with the Full Circle Fund to sponsor the upcoming Wild Card Wednesday networking event in San Francisco. The Full Circle Fund is an alliance of Silicon Valley leaders committed to extending the benefits of the Information Age. They examine Bay Area social and economic challenges and invest in innovative organizations that addresses those challenges. To support its operations and grant making, the Full Circle Fund will auction off some great items including: a private plane to the destination of your choice and a day of extreme skiing with Jonny Moseley. To find out more go to: http://www.fullcirclefund.org/events.html This email was sent to: cypherpunks at toad.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, reply to this email with the word UNSUBSCRIBE as the FIRST word in your reply. *** Please allow 3 to 5 business days for your unsubscribe request to take effect. *** Or mailto:unsubs-NEWSLETTER113000-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.myspace.com with the word UNSUBSCRIBE as the FIRST word in your reply. --------------------------------------------------------------------- From Somebody Sat Dec 2 00:03:37 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:03:37 -0000 Subject: FW: Recent Publication Message-ID: Bob, The url below is wrong: try http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/fsr/ops.pdf instead. > -----Original Message----- > From: Somebody at The Bank of England > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 6:33 PM > To: Somebody > Subject: Recent Publication > > > You may be aware that we published a paper entitled 'Oversight of > Payment Systems' this week. It sets out our objectives for > payment system oversight and describes our role in practice. > The paper is available be on the Bank's website at > www.bankofengland.co.uk/fsr/payment. > > Please let me know if you would like a printed copy. > > Regards > > --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 2 08:23:48 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:23:48 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 4:43 PM +0100 12/2/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >Duncan Frissell wrote: >> Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann > >actually, contrary to almost all other cases of censorship (not that I >say this isn't) the german state of bavaria owns the COPYRIGHT of "mein >kampf", and as such actually has some kind of standing in most of the >cases. yeah, it's still censorship, but at least they were bright enough >to do it in an intelligent way. in essence, only copies printed before >1945 are actually legal, because the copyright owner (bavaria) has not >authorized any later printings. This is misleading. There is much debate about ownership of the copyright, whether it has expired (as would normally be the case after roughly 70 years, whether the licenses sold to other publishers are valid, etc.). And it has been published by several publishing houses, which makes the Yahoo case apropos. For example: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/webedit/001014kampf.htm On the trail of the Mein Kampf royalties More from the government vaults By David Whitman ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Oct. 20, 2000, Houghton Mifflin informed U.S.News & World Report that it would donate all royalties from the sales of Mein Kampf that the firm has received since 1979 to an as-yet-unspecified charity. Since 1979, Houghton Mifflin has collected about $400,000 in royalties alone from the sale of Mein Kampf. The publishing house will also donate future royalties from Mein Kampf to charity. ... --end of excerpt-- There are many more such reports about royalties, copyright. Quite odd that the publisher Houghton Mifflin would say they are donating all royalties since 1979 if in fact no copies have been published since 1945! Even more odd if some of us have copies in our libraries which were published much more recently than 1945. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 2 06:09:58 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:09:58 -0500 Subject: Bank of England White Paper on Payment Systems Oversight Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Sat Dec 2 03:13:01 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 12:13:01 +0100 Subject: FW: Pretty scary... Message-ID: <99fd5c1319f83eaaa12bc625b52d9e17@remailer.privacy.at> [: hacktivism :] > Pretty scary... > Imagine ... > > 1. Imagine an election in a third-world country in which the > self-declared winner was the > son of the former prime minister - and > imagine that the former prime minister was himself the former head > of that nation's > secret police. > > 2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote, but > won based on some old > colonial holdover from the nation's pre-democracy past. > > 3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's "victory" turned on > disputed votes cast in a > province governed by his brother. > > 4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district - a > district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent - led > thousands of voters > to vote for the wrong candidate. > > 5. Imagine that that members of that nation's most despised caste of > former slaves, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in > record numbers to vote in > near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner's candidacy. > > 6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were > intercepted on their way to the polls by state police, operating under > the authority of the > self-declared winner's brother. > > 7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province, > and that the > self-declared winner's "lead" was only 327 votes-fewer, > certainly, than the vote-counting machines' margin of error. > > 8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party > opposed a more careful, by-hand inspection and re-counting of the > ballots in the disputed > province, or in its most hotly disputed district. > > 9. Imagine that the self-declared winner was himself a governor of a > major province, and that his province had the worst human-rights > record of any province in > his nation, and actually led the nation in executions. > > 10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared > winner was to appoint > like-minded human-rights violators to lifetime positions on the high > court of that nation. > From 56789ua at terra.es Sat Dec 2 03:28:28 2000 From: 56789ua at terra.es (Lorenzo Urbistondo Arteche) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 12:28:28 +0100 Subject: FOTOS PORN Message-ID: <000801c05c53$0ba24a00$2625fea9@z9s3v9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From baptista at pccf.net Sat Dec 2 10:39:53 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 13:39:53 -0500 Subject: Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001202133953.00ab0c00@199.166.24.1> Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs (Politics 2:00 a.m. PST) http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40449,00.html?tw=wn20001202 Palestinian supporters have created a site from where they distribute tools and viruses to fellow believers in the fight against Israel. Visitors are greeted with a message: 'I swear that I will not use these programs on anyone but Jews and Israelis.' By Carmen Gentile. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- Joe Baptista www.dot.god From frissell at panix.com Sat Dec 2 10:57:42 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: Actually, the *US* copyright was siezed by the US government at the beginning of the war and not returned to Germany until the last decade or so. So there are plenty of US copies that would remain legal. DCF From webri at ig.com.br Sat Dec 2 15:01:15 2000 From: webri at ig.com.br (Werner) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 15:01:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Adv.: GET RICH WORKING WITH YOUR COMPUTER -UOUG Message-ID: <200012022301.PAA18296@cyberpass.net> READY TO EARN $ 100,000+/YR AND MORE CASH !!?? --------------------------------------------------------- With this perfect Business parttime worker earn already about $ 5,000+/month. It is your possibility of having a very lucrative business at home. You find your customers only using the resources of Internet. E-mail is without question the most powerfull method of distributing information on earth. All your customers pay you in CASH without ever talking to them. Fulltime workers earn $ 10,000 in one month and much more !! Let me help you like others helped me to get "wealthy" in my pocket. It's a real opportunity and it runs !! For important additional informations send an (blanc) e-mail to www.bmoveis at terra.com.br Thank you for your attention !! --------------------------------------------- This message is a 'one-time' mailing. Once you have recieved this message you will no longer receive future messages from me. For this reason there is no need to 'unsubscribe'. If this message does not interest you, please pardon my intrusion. ---------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Sat Dec 2 12:35:17 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 15:35:17 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:54 AM 12/2/00 -0500, Tom Vogt wrote: >Duncan Frissell wrote: >> Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann > >actually, contrary to almost all other cases of censorship (not that I >say this isn't) the german state of bavaria owns the COPYRIGHT of "mein >kampf", Hitler's estate would be the natural heir (under US law :-), although I can believe that .de would seize it too, if he had no heir, or if they didn't like him. The notion of Germany suing hitler.org for copyright infringement of M.K. certainly whets the surrealist's appetite... Some Quebecois should translate it to french and get a Yahoo link :-) From andromeda125 at excite.com Sat Dec 2 15:46:27 2000 From: andromeda125 at excite.com (andromeda125 at excite.com) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 15:46:27 Subject: Interesting Bio Oppurtunity Message-ID: <624.587549.579964@excite.com> Nov 17, 2000 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Investors Spotlight by Looknofurther * * * * * * * * * * * * Bioenvision.co.uk (BIOV.OB) BIOENVISION READIES LEAD PRODUCT LAUNCH Reports Substantive Progress On Four Platform Technologies BIOENVISION INC. - OTCBB Symbol: BIOV.OB In a recent press release President & CEO Chris Wood commented, "The global anti-cancer therapy market, presently valued at approximately $16 billion, is poised for considerable further growth. We believe this market will double in the next 4 years. This expansion will be driven by innovative new therapies which should dramatically improve control over the disease. During the past fiscal year, we made substantive progress developing our four platform technologies. We intend marketing our breast cancer drug, Modrefen, in 2001. This product will compete in the market-place with drugs such as Genentech's (NYSE:DNA - news) Herceptin but it's novel mode of action puts it in a specific therapeutic niche. Extensive clinical trials showed that Modrefen is effective in up to 55% of patients with breast cancer who relapse after hormone therapy with drugs such as Astra Zeneca's (NYSE:AZN - news) Tamoxifen." Dr. Wood continued, "During the next 12 months we intend to find a co-development partner for our anti-leukemia agent, Clofarabine. This drug is in Phase II clinical trials and early results are encouraging. This product will compete with Fludarabine, which is marketed in the USA by Berlex, a subsidiary of Schering AG (717200D) and Pentotatin which is marketed by Supergen (NASDAQ:SUPG - news). We continue to make substantive progress on our Gene Therapy platform. In the past year the team added a second gene to the vector and conducted successful pre-clinical trials. The results have confirmed the ability of the vector to transfer DNA to skeletal muscle and for release of gene product into the blood stream. In an earlier clinical trial, with the albumin gene attached to the vector, patients with low serum albumin levels due to end-stage liver disease, had serum levels returned to the normal range after treatment. We believe that these agents have considerable commercial possibilities." Company Overview Bioenvision is a development-stage, biopharmaceutical company primarily engaged in the development of products and technologies for the treatment of cancer. Bioenvision has acquired development, manufacturing and marketing rights to four technologies from which a range of products have been derived and from which additional products may be developed in the future. Bioenvision aims to continue developing its existing platform technologies, acquire additional technologies and products with multiple uses, and commercialize products for the multi-billion dollar cancer treatment market. Bioenvision expects to begin marketing Trilostane for the treatment of post-menopausal breast cancer on a commercial scale in the United States and Europe in the second quarter of 2001. The product is already FDA-approved in the United States for another use. Bioenvision plans to apply to use the drug in the United States for treatment of hormone sensitive cancers, such as breast cancer and advanced prostrate cancer. In addition, three of the other products and technologies to which Bioenvision has acquired rights are presently being tested in clinical trials, and an additional eight are in the pre-clinical stage of development. Assuming the successful completion of clinical trials, Bioenvision anticipates that by the end of 2002, five of Bioenvision's products and technologies will have received regulatory approval for specific disease (primarily cancer) treatment indications in the United States or Europe and seven will be in the final stages of the clinical trial process. Bioenvision has had discussions with potential development partners over the past year and plan to continue to explore the possibilities for co-development and sub-licensing. Bioenvision expects to enter into a co-development agreement for at least one of our products within the next few months although there can be no assurances that any such agreement will be reached. Bioenvision is also working on a fourth group of compounds that act as cytostatic agents by stopping the growth of cancer cells. There are at least three potential products in this category, one of which is set for a Phase I clinical trial in the coming year. These compounds are at an early stage of development but the Company expects these agents to fill the product pipeline for the future. In March 2000, Bioenvision recieved an equity investment of $2 million from Bioaccelerate BVI, a Swiss-based investment company which enabled the Company to move ahead in its business plan during 2000. Bioaccelerate has an option to invest an additional $4 million in the Company and that investment relates to certain milestones in the coming 12 months. Product Portfolio The following is a description of Bioenvision's current portfolio of technologies, products and products in development. Product / Disease intended / Current stage /Anticipated Time to be treated of Development Until Marketed Cancer Treatment --------------------------------------------------------------------- Modrefen / Breast cancer / At market / - - - Abetafen / Prostate cancer / Phase II trials / 2 years Clofarabine / Leukemia, Lymphoma / Phase II trials / 18 months Clofarabine / Solid tumors / Phase I trials / 2 years Cytostatics / Bladder cancer / Phase I trials / 3 years RA inhibitor / Leukemia / Pre-clinical / 4 years Hormone blocker / Prostate cancer / Pre-clinical / 4 years Gene Therapy -------------------------------------------------------------------- Product 1 / Leukemia / Phase I, II / 3 years Product 2 / Cancer support / Phase I, II / 3 years Non-Cancer Applications -------------------------------------------------------------------- Trilostane / Cushing's disease / At market / - - - Trilostane / Alzheimer's disease / Pre-clinical / 2 years Clofarabine / Transplantation / Phase I trials / 3 years Gene Therapy / Vaccines, Cirrhosis, Diabetes, MS / R & D / 5 years HISTORY The Company was founded by Chris Wood and financed by Kevin Leech, who were responsible for the first two public biotech companies in Europe in 1987, being Medeva plc and ML Laboratories plc respectively. STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIPS London School of Pharmacy University of Cardiff National Institute of Cancer, Bari, Italy University College, London MD Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, Texas Southern Research Institute, Alabama Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Institute, New York Imperial College, London STRATEGY Bioenvision's strategy is to license and acquire products ready for clinical trials or at a late stage of development, and to use the expertise of Bioenvision's management to take the products through clinical trials and to commercially position the products for today's marketplace. Bioenvision will establish an oncology sales force for the North American market while establishing a joint venture sales force in Europe. This will give Bioenvision the ability to distribute products from Bioenvision's own pipeline as well as products from other biotech companies looking for a dedicated oncology distribution chain. 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You are currently subscribed to Looknofurther, to unsubscribe send a blank email to: cassie380 at excite.com From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 2 13:12:08 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 16:12:08 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: At 3:35 PM -0500 12/2/00, David Honig wrote: >At 10:54 AM 12/2/00 -0500, Tom Vogt wrote: >>Duncan Frissell wrote: >>> Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann >> >>actually, contrary to almost all other cases of censorship (not that I >>say this isn't) the german state of bavaria owns the COPYRIGHT of "mein >>kampf", > >Hitler's estate would be the natural heir (under US law :-), although I can >believe that .de would seize it too, if he had no heir, or if they >didn't like him. > >The notion of Germany suing hitler.org for copyright infringement of M.K. >certainly whets the surrealist's appetite... > >Some Quebecois should translate it to french and get a Yahoo link :-) Though I understand you are joking, the obvious point is that "Mein Kampf" was translated into French many years ago...sometime between 1940 and 1945, one would expect, if not earlier. I did a quick Google search to see if the French translation is online anywhere. I couldn't find any obvious links. Much discussion of the Yahoo and Amazon issues, though. The Thought Police are coming! --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tom at ricardo.de Sat Dec 2 07:43:48 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 16:43:48 +0100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Duncan Frissell wrote: > Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann actually, contrary to almost all other cases of censorship (not that I say this isn't) the german state of bavaria owns the COPYRIGHT of "mein kampf", and as such actually has some kind of standing in most of the cases. yeah, it's still censorship, but at least they were bright enough to do it in an intelligent way. in essence, only copies printed before 1945 are actually legal, because the copyright owner (bavaria) has not authorized any later printings. From kurk0 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:50:01 2000 From: kurk0 at yahoo.com (roberto) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 16:50:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: please unsuscribe of you are list Message-ID: <20001203005001.53029.qmail@web218.mail.yahoo.com> no spam me.... --- noybw wrote: > hi, I am researching the subject for a book, am > unable to find much except > for yr interupted bits on the web. Pse forward to me > any info you may have > esp relating to the associated murders in South > Africa.if you have > browseable web addresses that may be of interest pse > advise. Thanx Cheers > Rae > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 2 14:51:22 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:51:22 -0500 Subject: The election debacle. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001202140641.01afae78@shell11.ba.best.com> -- The election outcome is great. With a bit of luck, we should see the supremes do a party line 5/4 vote on a partisan issue, further destroying what little credibility they have left. With a bit more luck we should see two slates of electors, one proclaimed by the courts, and one by the legislature and executive. Bush's case against the Florida supremes was great: His team shot them down root and branch, claiming that everything they did and said was beyond their jurisdiction, as of course it was, but if one of them had been caught scratching his bum, I am sure Bush would have argued that the offending judge lacked jurisdiction to find his own bum also. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG WbV66f5Xmh8YI+XWY9eJshlRVy0Lc8wPGvz4AMmZ 4ZejlQ7TMtBHNHjcv1nTObc+asCmBt4ydmTx/gpec From mctaylor at privacy.nb.ca Sat Dec 2 16:13:07 2000 From: mctaylor at privacy.nb.ca (M Taylor) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 20:13:07 -0400 (AST) Subject: CanCrypt: Canadian cryptographic resources Message-ID: I have been updating CanCrypt, a directory of Canadian cryptographic resources. It is intended to be a clearing house of Canadian related cryptographic resources. Although the relaxing of US export regulations has reduced some of its importance, Canada still has a more liberal cryptographic policy for export and usage. Compared to both the USA (re: export) and UK (re: RIP) it is very crypto-friendly. http://www.privacy.nb.ca/cancrypt/ If you have additions, please me know. -- M Taylor mctaylor@ / privacy.nb.ca From fogstorm at mac.com Sat Dec 2 20:24:38 2000 From: fogstorm at mac.com (fogstorm) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 20:24:38 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20001202202438-r01010600-ab028c0f@10.0.1.3> danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au wrote: > > Actually, the *US* copyright was siezed by the US government at the > > beginning of the war and not returned to Germany until the last decade or > > so. So there are plenty of US copies that would remain legal. > > In Australia at least, I think Mein Kampf is now out of copyright (it's > still 50 years from death of author here). > > Danny. So if an Australian puts it on his web site can the German government sue for copyright infringement? Can they prosecute for violation of their anti Nazi laws? If a German citizen views it in Amsterdam can his government prosecute when he returns home? From raewrite at mweb.co.za Sat Dec 2 11:41:14 2000 From: raewrite at mweb.co.za (noybw) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 21:41:14 +0200 Subject: red mercury Message-ID: <0G4Y0044BHIT1I@earthquake.mweb.co.za> hi, I am researching the subject for a book, am unable to find much except for yr interupted bits on the web. Pse forward to me any info you may have esp relating to the associated murders in South Africa.if you have browseable web addresses that may be of interest pse advise. Thanx Cheers Rae From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Sat Dec 2 13:38:49 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 22:38:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today Message-ID: <2e38236777448f59c0a21adfe1922889@mix2.hyperreal.pl> >Frankly, I think much of Al Gores desperation comes from his Tim, --- ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ----! !---- ----! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! -- ! ! ! ! ! / ! ! ! / ! ! !/ / ! / ! / ! / ! / From declan at well.com Sat Dec 2 22:58:00 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 01:58:00 -0500 Subject: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 11:16:22AM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> <20001201093725.A13340@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001203022149.A14126@cluebot.com> On Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 11:16:22AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > Stewwwwieeeee!!!! Right! His eyebrows have actually grown considerably longer since this photo (and I didn't think such a thing was possible, given the laws of gravity): http://www.mccullagh.org/image/6/stewart-baker.html -Declan From declan at well.com Sat Dec 2 23:28:34 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 02:28:34 -0500 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today In-Reply-To: <200012020116.UAA09709@www1.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 08:16:36PM -0500 References: <200012020116.UAA09709@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001203022834.B14126@cluebot.com> Hey, I shot a roll of B&W 400-speed that I'm having developed now. I've hardly given up on analog -- some shots of Jesse Jackson marching I wouldn't have been able to get without a nice, fast 70-200/2.8 lens and a camera to match. The damnable CoolPix takes seconds to process each shot. I'm getting a review unit of the Canon D-30 digital SLR that can take Canon mount lenses; we'll see how that compares... -Declan On Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 08:16:36PM -0500, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Alright, Declan using his Nikon Coolpix 950! Screw that analog stuff. > Got 340Mb? > > At 5:21 PM -0500 12/1/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > # http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/supreme-court-bush-gore-arguments.html From baptista at pccf.net Sun Dec 3 00:02:16 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 03:02:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Human Rights Alert-- Urgent Information needed on West Papua massacre by Indonesian military. Message-ID: >>> ---------- >>> From: "Michael Albert" >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:25:39 -0800 >>> To: , >>> Subject: ZNet Commentary / George Monbiot / Massacre Starts Tomorrow / Dec 1 >>> >>> >>> The Massacre Starts Tomorrow >>> And Britain will share the blame for what's about to happen in West Papua >>> By George Monbiot >>> Also Published in the Guardian 30th November 2000 >>> >>> There's an odd component of globalisation, which I find myself at a loss to >>> explain. We are, we're assured, living in a global village, whose people are >>> daily brought closer together. Yet we hear ever less about what is happening >>> in distant parts of the world. There is less foreign news in the papers than >>> there has been for sixty years. Foreign documentaries are almost extinct. >>> Parliamentary debate about overseas issues has all but dried up. In the >>> midst of the communications revolution, we are becoming strangers to each >>> other. >>> >>> So the massacres due to begin tomorrow will take almost everyone by >>> surprise. Indeed, there is hardly a news editor who has even heard of the >>> land in which they are scheduled to take place. >>> >>> West Papua is the western half of the island of New Guinea, which has been >>> occupied since 1963 by Indonesia. Tomorrow, local people expect the >>> Indonesian army to launch a one-sided war, bloodier even than the carnage in >>> East Timor last year. The troops and militias have been armed and trained >>> and are awaiting orders. Only the international community can stop them. >>> But, though Western nations such as Britain are up to their necks in it, >>> they haven't the faintest intention of seeking to prevent the Indonesian >>> plan from going ahead. >>> >>> In 1961, the 800,000 Melanesian people of West Papua were promised >>> independence. Holland, the colonial power, began to transfer the >>> administration to local people. In 1962, Indonesia invaded. The attack >>> failed, but John Kennedy, with Britain's backing, coerced the Dutch into >>> surrendering West Papua to the United Nations, on the grounds that if the >>> Indonesian government were not appeased it might succumb to communism. The >>> UN, as planned, promptly gave West Papua to Indonesia, but on condition that >>> within five years its people would be granted "the right of >>> self-determination". In the event, 1000 Papuan men were rounded up and >>> forced to vote on pain of death for Indonesian sovereignty. >>> >>> Since then, tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of Papuans have been >>> tortured, mutilated and killed by Indonesian soldiers. The government >>> launched a eugenics programme whose purpose, according to the former >>> governor, was to give "birth to a new generation of people without curly >>> hair, sowing the seeds for greater beauty". The Papuans have been pushed out >>> of their lands and replaced by people from the central islands of Indonesia, >>> brought in by the government to pacify the province. Its forests have been >>> sold to logging companies, its mountains to western mining firms. When >>> villagers have sought to defend their lands, they have been bombed and >>> strafed. Now the whole place is about to explode. >>> >>> Tomorrow, the indigenous people will make a formal declaration of >>> independence. The Indonesian army has been waiting for months for just such >>> a moment. Since August, thousands of commandos and paratroops have been >>> flown into West Papua. British-made Hawk jets have been overflying the >>> province's central highlands. Their deployment there was, according to the >>> Financial Times, sanctioned by Britain's Foreign Office. Militias are >>> currently being trained by the army outside the town of Wamena, one of the >>> centres of Papuan resistance. Some 12,000 firearms have been flown in, >>> presumably for distribution to Indonesian volunteers. Local people, by >>> contrast, are armed with spears and bows and arrows. >>> >>> The Indonesian army has been encouraging the Papuans to rise, planting >>> agents provocateurs and issuing public statements suggesting that >>> independence ceremonies will be tolerated (all previous rituals have been >>> ruthlessly crushed). Here, as in East Timor, the army will seek to unleash >>> sufficient force to persuade the indigenous people to abandon their hopes of >>> self-determination. >>> >>> Papuan leaders have repeatedly sought to reach a peaceful independence >>> settlement with the Indonesian government. But while President Wahid seems >>> vaguely sympathetic to their cause, vice-president Megawati, who has, in >>> effect, ultimate control over the province, appears interested only in >>> delivering lucrative logging and development concessions to the army in >>> order to secure its support. The Papuans have approached the British >>> government for help. It has ignored them. And still it continues to sell >>> arms to Indonesia. >>> >>> When the massacre begins, our officials will doubtless wring their hands and >>> lament the failure of Indonesia's people to resolve their differences by >>> peaceful means. Having seen what happened in East Timor and having failed to >>> do anything to prevent its repetition, the blood this time will be on our >>> hands. We helped to start all this. Now we must stop it. >>> From shawneepaws1 at icqmail.com Sun Dec 3 03:41:57 2000 From: shawneepaws1 at icqmail.com (pete davidson) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 03:41:57 -0800 Subject: reply to the human-animal hybrids Message-ID: <200012051104.FAA10695@einstein.ssz.com> this is an interesting concept i think if you can do this thing with humans and dogs (wolves) i might be interested in this one thing is is there any side affects and what would happien if it works what do you need from me and what would changeif this does work it would greatly help me in my life long dream of being a wolf. my e-mail address is shawneepaws1 at icqmail.com From directmarketing at netzero.com Sun Dec 3 05:25:34 2000 From: directmarketing at netzero.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 05:25:34 -0800 Subject: Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly At Home - Here's How! Message-ID: <200012031332.FAA15938@cyberpass.net> Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly Home Workers Needed Nationwide Hundreds of companies are currently looking for telecommuters. There is no experience needed and you can start right away. This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program. In fact, none of the companies require any special fees to get started. Many offer free training. Start earning money in your spare time. You set the hours, you decide how much you want to make. Email powerstaff at earthlink.net with "Work At Home" in the subject heading for complete details. Best Wishes Home Workers Directory P.S. Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. From danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au Sat Dec 2 16:20:15 2000 From: danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 11:20:15 +1100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: ; from frissell@panix.com on Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 01:57:42PM -0500 References: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> > Actually, the *US* copyright was siezed by the US government at the > beginning of the war and not returned to Germany until the last decade or > so. So there are plenty of US copies that would remain legal. In Australia at least, I think Mein Kampf is now out of copyright (it's still 50 years from death of author here). Danny. From photo.1 at ic24.net Sun Dec 3 03:34:44 2000 From: photo.1 at ic24.net (Giacomino C Parkinson) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 11:34:44 -0000 Subject: Only Ones Message-ID: <005601c05d1d$0df700a0$9ca22cc3@freeserve.co.uk> http://www.intelcities.com/Classic_Lane/perrett From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Dec 3 12:23:51 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 12:23:51 -0800 Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001203122351.009f0460@idiom.com> At 08:56 AM 12/1/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: >Yes, different. alt.anonymous.messages is simply a message mix. >I'm talking about a system that would provide lots of encrypted >traffic *ON THE SAME PORTS* as whatever other encrypted traffic >you were sending. IOW, no one should be able to look at logs and >say, "well, we can ignore that packet, it's NNTP. This other >packet over here is mail, and probably the thing we're after..." That sounds like a job for IPSEC. All the packets are encrypted at the IP level, though you can still tell the source and destination of the outer packet, and you can tell the packet size, so it's not a strict Pipenet substitute - if you see traffic from A to B and same-sized traffic from B to C, you can guess that B might have routed some packets from A to C. But it still answers your basic request. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From agl at linuxpower.org Sun Dec 3 11:27:12 2000 From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:27:12 -0500 Subject: UK Govt seeks to capture and store everything for 7 years Message-ID: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> There is an Observer artical at: http://www.observer.co.uk//uk_news/story/0,6903,406191,00.html The leaked report refered to is at: http://cryptome.org/ncis-carnivore.htm Choate: There's no need to post the whole thing to the list now. AGL -- In an orderly world, there's always a place for the disorderly. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 3 12:05:52 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:05:52 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: At 2:27 PM -0500 12/3/00, Adam Langley wrote: >Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:UK Govt seeks to capture and st >(MiME/CSOm) (0000F86A) This is really getting out of hand! Attempting to open this message, by clicking on the attachment, bombs/crashes my Eudora Pro 5.0.1 mailer. Repeatedly--I tried 4 times. Maybe it's something that Eudora Pro, a very common mailer, is not doing properly. Maybe I failed to set the DigitalBassomaticMime preferences properly. Maybe I didn't installed SHADecoder in the right place. I don't have the time to investigate each one of the new and weird bomb syndromes each time it happens. What I know is that an increasing fraction of the (ironically _decreasing_ total number of) messages to Cypherpunks are in "weird" formats: -- MIME -- attachments, sometimes "inline," sometimes not -- tiny fonts, colored fonts, other MIME cruft -- signatures as _attachments_ Folks, I urge you to test your new signing policies with a variety of mailers. And to think carefully about whether the signatures are worth the hassle. (My view, stated many times over the years, is that routine signing of everyday messages is a waste of time for everyone. For lots of reasons.) Remember, people will be reading ASCII mail on a variety of systems: Windows, NT, DOS, VT100, Mac, Amiga, Minitel, PDAs, etc.. And with a variety of mailers: Outlook, Eudora, mutt, pine, NextStep mail, etc. And they may have a variety of crypto tools either installed, linked to their mailers, or available only by launching the app: PGP of varying vintages, GPG, SMIME, etc. If messages are signed, great care should be taken to ensure that the signatures do not in any way interfere with the normal presentation of good old ASCII text, the lingua franca of the online world. Absent this, I'm just going to have to start trashing without reading the messages from folks whose messages bomb my mail program. I'm sure they won't mind. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) 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The user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and the use of this document. From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Sun Dec 3 13:58:30 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:58:30 -0500 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today Message-ID: What an excellent example of how anonymous politcal commentary can benefit society at large. Quite worthy of it's status as heir to 'The Federalist Papers'. I look forward to reading more of your work in the future. -p(ublius) "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Anonymous @cyberpass.net on 12/02/2000 04:38:49 PM Please respond to Anonymous Sent by: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net From lizard at mrlizard.com Sun Dec 3 17:28:28 2000 From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 17:28:28 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> References: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> At 04:20 PM 12/2/2000, Danny Yee wrote: > > Actually, the *US* copyright was siezed by the US government at the > > beginning of the war and not returned to Germany until the last decade or > > so. So there are plenty of US copies that would remain legal. > >In Australia at least, I think Mein Kampf is now out of copyright (it's >still 50 years from death of author here). Really? Doesn't the Berne convention override national laws? If not...what would the odds be of the Aussies setting up "Gutenberg Down Under" to host works that won't leave copyright in the US and Europe for decades, if ever? From rsw at mit.edu Sun Dec 3 16:16:04 2000 From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:16:04 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 03:05:52PM -0500 References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 3 16:52:45 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:52:45 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: At 7:16 PM -0500 12/3/00, Riad S. Wahby wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Tim May wrote: >> If messages are signed, great care should be taken to ensure that the >> signatures do not in any way interfere with the normal presentation >> of good old ASCII text, the lingua franca of the online world. > >The problem you're seeing arises because your mailer and others like >it (Outlook, etc.) do not follow the PGP/MIME standard (RFC 2015, >Oct. 1996), which calls for the support of the content-types >application/pgp-encrypted, application/pgp-signature, and >application/pgp-keys. Unfortunately, many of us use mailers that make >some attempt at supporting standards, and in the end you just can't >read our mail. You are so right. It is pointless for me to argue that you folks should stick to ASCII. Therefore, it is best that I simply take the 5-6 recent posters involved and filter them out of my incoming mail. As each new MIMEoid appears, I'll add him to the filter file. Bye! --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From lizard at mrlizard.com Sun Dec 3 20:02:49 2000 From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 20:02:49 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <20001204144920.A20701@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203200014.04f3ceb0@mrlizard.com> At 07:49 PM 12/3/2000, Danny Yee wrote: >Lizard wrote: > > Really? Doesn't the Berne convention override national laws? > >Probably, yes. Does that mean national copyright laws only apply to >their own citizens/residents? What happens in the case of dual >citizenship? And does place of publication come into it? In most cases, national laws are altered to bring them 'in line' with treaties. (All treaties.) This has been an issue in the US, where the SC has ruled that a treaty cannot violate the constitution...or, rather, that it doesn't matter WHAT Congress agreed to, the Constitution will trump any laws passed to institute it. That this might somehow change is a favorite paranoia of a loony right. (And, were it likely to occur, it would be a justifiable paranoia...it would allow the legislature to do an end-run around the Bill of Rights. For example, the US as it stands CANNOT ban 'hate speech' from US-hosted servers, even if Europe pressured them into signing a treaty to do so.) From rfiero at pophost.com Sun Dec 3 20:07:54 2000 From: rfiero at pophost.com (Richard Fiero) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 20:07:54 -0800 Subject: Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001202133953.00ab0c00@199.166.24.1> Message-ID: <4.0.1.20001203200536.008efee0@postoffice.pacbell.net> There can now be no doubt that Wired is a pod of the US national security apparatus like CNN is. ===== Joe Baptista wrote: > > >Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs (Politics 2:00 a.m. PST) >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40449,00.html?tw=wn20001202 >Palestinian supporters have created a site from where they distribute >tools and viruses to fellow believers in the fight against Israel. >Visitors are greeted with a message: 'I swear that I will not use these >programs on anyone but Jews and Israelis.' By Carmen Gentile. >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > >-- >Joe Baptista >www.dot.god > From matthewgream at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 12:44:11 2000 From: matthewgream at hotmail.com (matthew gream) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 20:44:11 -0000 Subject: Crimes Against Humanity: : The Struggle for Global Justice Message-ID: No doubt readers of this forum will be interested in Geoffrey Robertson's ``Crimes Against Humanity: : The Struggle for Global Justice`` (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713991976) in which he does excellent justice to tracing the origins of human rights and international human rights causes, especially as it evolved post nuremburg through the UNHRC, The Balkans, General Pinochet, Kosovo, East Timor and The ICC. Geoffrey is scathingly critical of the hypocrisy of international diplomacy in its failure to uphold agreed upon conventions and fundamental rights for individuals. His explanation not only illustrates circumstances as they occurred, but he tends to decribe how they should be, in order that "justice is seen to be done". Although there is no mention of cryptography, the insights into geopolitics and "the merry-go-round in geneva" illustrate the cogs and lubricants in the international framework of legal and diplomatic wangling. Fans of Jack Straw will be pleased that he "did the right thing" in the case of Pinochet, and my hero Noam Chomsky gets a brief message (his incisive criticisms on American foreign policy - and Robertson holds nothing bad in criticising the continuing hypocrisy). Matthew Gream Brussels, December 2000 _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From rsw at MIT.EDU Sun Dec 3 18:26:29 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:26:29 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 07:52:45PM -0500 References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001203212557.A11762@positron.mit.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 923 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sun Dec 3 20:09:26 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:09:26 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001203212557.A11762@positron.mit.edu>; from rsw@mit.edu on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 09:26:29PM -0500 References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> <20001203212557.A11762@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001203230925.B28702@cluebot.com> Both of you make reasonable points. (I read cypherpunks exclusively with mutt, which does follow the standards, perhaps even fanatically.) But there seems to be little benefit to (a) signing messages, though this admittedly a personal issue and (b) using MIME types when some mailreaders will not support them. Heck, even leaving aside the Eudora problem, MIME attachments would pose problems if I want to use /bin/mail in a pinch. -Declan (living in the '80s) On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 09:26:29PM -0500, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Tim May wrote: > > It is pointless for me to argue that you folks should stick to ASCII. > > I agree that people should stick to ASCII, which is why my messages > are completely made up of plain ASCII text. I use the content-type > fields only to make it easier for mailers that support MIME to handle > my messages; in this case, it's text/plain, so everyone should display > it the same. Presumably that includes your mail client, as I've > tested my mutt patch against Eudora Pro, and it seems to work fine. > If it doesn't, please let me know how it misbehaves so that I can fix > it. > > - -- > Riad Wahby > rsw at mit.edu > MIT VI-2/A 2002 > > 5105 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org > > iD8DBQE6KwC1iHor6RkxxqYRAmThAKDGHjGIvMaHBhdwTaFBqFmNTcAjcACg3GDh > GqlAWUPXbVh83pFuvnVjtM0= > =0Wbu > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > From bear at sonic.net Sun Dec 3 23:24:02 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:24:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <200012040559.AAA01725@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Adam Back wrote: >The protocols you list are online. Not that this is a bad thing -- I >kind of prefer the online idea -- rather than the "and then you go to >jail" implications of fraud tracing in the offline protocols. Plus >you have a risk of accidentally double spending if your computer >crashes or something. I think that would depend on the banker. "Bob spent this hundred dollars three times," muses Alice. "Check and see if he's got overdraft protection for the extra two hundred... if he doesn't, then put it on his credit card with a fifteen dollar loan orignation fee and charge him two percent a month...." Jail time, in most cases, probably just isn't profitable for the bankers. After all, how are you going to soak the guy for fees and interest if he's behind bars? Bear From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 3 21:50:57 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:50:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Physical Meet: Austin, Tx. Tue. Dec. 12 2000, 7-9pm Message-ID: Tuesday, Dec. 12, 2000 Austin Cypherpunks Monthly Physical Meeting Central Market HEB Cafe 38th & N. Lamar 2nd. Tuesday of each month 7-9pm http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html We normaly meet outside at the tables unless the weather is bad. Look for the red covered 'Applied Cryptography' book to identify the group. Please visit the homepage for information on joining both the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (CDR) as well as the local mailing list. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rsw at MIT.EDU Sun Dec 3 21:11:01 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:11:01 -0500 Subject: manual crypto In-Reply-To: <66ef517c1b433d6a2308a97aa661099a@mix2.hyperreal.pl>; from mix@mix2.hyperreal.pl on Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 03:29:48AM +0100 References: <66ef517c1b433d6a2308a97aa661099a@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: <20001204001101.A12399@positron.mit.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Dec 3 21:59:45 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:59:45 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <3A27748E.D9A39988@algroup.co.uk> (message from Ben Laurie on Fri, 01 Dec 2000 09:51:10 +0000) Message-ID: <200012040559.AAA01725@cypherspace.org> Ben wrote: > > different process. I don't think you can do efficient offline ecash > > with Wagner et al's mechanism -- I'd guess it's more comparable with > > the functionality offered by Chaum's blind signature. > > I'm not sure what you think the requirements for "efficient offline > ecash" are, but I should note that the double-blinded version of lucre > doesn't require the ZKP, and there's also a non-interactive variant of > the ZKP for the single-blinded variant. They are both described in the > current version of the paper (at least, I'm sure the first as, and > somewhat sure the second is). Offline means offline with fraud-tracing in event of double spending, so the efficiency refers to the computation and communication cost of the withdraw and deposit protocols which do the normal ecash thing, plus encode identity in the coin in the withdraw protocol in a way which will be revealed in a double spent show protocol. The protocols you list are online. Not that this is a bad thing -- I kind of prefer the online idea -- rather than the "and then you go to jail" implications of fraud tracing in the offline protocols. Plus you have a risk of accidentally double spending if your computer crashes or something. Adam From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Dec 3 22:14:38 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 01:14:38 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001129090722.0206f4a8@shell11.ba.best.com> (jamesd@echeque.com) Message-ID: <200012040614.BAA01737@cypherspace.org> James wrote: > Adam Back wrote: > > Hal says: > > > > > > http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash1.html and > > > http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash2.html > > > > Wow look at the dates on those files -- Oct 93, and we still no > > deployed ecash. You'd think there would be a market there for porn > > sites alone with merchant repudiation rates, and lack of privacy in > > other payment systems. > > The obvious starting market for good ecash is perverse > pornography. Another good starting market is interactive sexual > performance over the internet. Whatever the class of pornography it is that is popular on the internet would indeed be a good starting market. I'd consider this class the "mainstream" pornography on the internet. So I'm not sure if you're referring to this or some more risky harder to find stuff which people may arguably be willing to pay a higher premium for. I'd aim for the mainstream stuff due to volume. > There have been many attempts at ecash, but I am not aware of any > products involving useful, spendable, convenient, anonymous ecash > targeted at that or similar markets. The only really usable > anonymous ecash was that of the Mark Twain bank, which crippled its > cash to prevent it from being used by that market. I presume the crippling you're talking about is the payee traceability with collusion of payer and bank. However I'm not sure I agree that the payee anonymity identification feature killed it for this application. For this particular application there appear to be plenty of sites willing to serve the content sans anonymity -- they're VISA, etc merchants no less. I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application was MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related to pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. Plus of course: - the need to download a client - the small userbase making it an unattractive proposition for users - the need to setup an account (in US funds) -- no accountless operation - accounts were difficult to setup too - the greedy fee structure - differentiating between merchants and users I'd have thought the thing to do was put an ecash client in Mozilla and work on getting it into netscape. Plus download plugins for Internet Explorer. So whoever develops enough clue, capability and interest in making money to do this someday needs to think about making it work with existing credit card sites. Give back a one time credit card number for legacy sites which is cryptographically unlinkable with the ecash spender. In general try to make it interoperate with other payment systems. Try to make it as painless and instant as possible to buy ecash. All of this you'd think would be obvious. Adam From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Dec 4 02:11:40 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 02:11:40 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203200014.04f3ceb0@mrlizard.com> References: <20001204144920.A20701@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001204021140.01d375f0@idiom.com> At 08:02 PM 12/3/00 -0800, Lizard wrote: >At 07:49 PM 12/3/2000, Danny Yee wrote: >>Lizard wrote: >> > Really? Doesn't the Berne convention override national laws? >> >>Probably, yes. Does that mean national copyright laws only apply to >>their own citizens/residents? What happens in the case of dual >>citizenship? And does place of publication come into it? > >In most cases, national laws are altered to bring them 'in line' with >treaties. (All treaties.) This has been an issue in the US, where the SC >has ruled that a treaty cannot violate the constitution...or, rather, that >it doesn't matter WHAT Congress agreed to, the Constitution will trump any >laws passed to institute it. I don't know if Australia's joined Berne (I assume yes) or how they've implemented it. Copyright laws, like most laws, only apply in whatever jurisdiction the government that writes them can get away with enforcing them. (For most countries, that's their national boundaries, plus occasionally expatriate citizens; for some, it's quite a bit less :-) Traditional Chinese copyright law only applied to civilization, i.e. Chinese-language books written by Chinese; stuff written by barbarians wasn't provided, so lots of my Taiwanese fellow students in college had much lower-cost versions of US-written textbooks, and that tradition was adapted to software on CD-ROMs at least until recently. In the US, that doesn't really affect copyright - the US Constitution doesn't go into any depth on the details of copyright law, so the US Congress was perfectly free to replace the previous details with Berne convention details. The one arguable exception is that the Const. authorizes grants of patents and copyrights for limited periods of time, and the current definitions of "limited" for copyright keep getting stretched; I think it's now "75 years after you're dead, or pretty much forever if you're a corporation". The general comment I've heard from lawyers is that copyright lengths will keep getting extended indefinitely to prevent Mickey Mouse's image from going off copyright. >That this might somehow change is a favorite paranoia of a loony right. >(And, were it likely to occur, it would be a justifiable paranoia...it >would allow the legislature to do an end-run around the Bill of Rights. For >example, the US as it stands CANNOT ban 'hate speech' from US-hosted >servers, even if Europe pressured them into signing a treaty to do so.) No, but Congress does a pretty good job of passing Unconstitutional laws already :-( The treaty trick that's been going on, at least in the ReaganBushClinton years, is for the administration to haggle other countries into a treaty or lower-status-than-treaty agreement about something obnoxious, like drugs laws or crypto export restrictions, then bully Congress into implementing legislation for it "because we've already negotiated it with our major partners". Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From declan at well.com Sun Dec 3 23:29:45 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 02:29:45 -0500 Subject: Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.20001203200536.008efee0@postoffice.pacbell.net>; from rfiero@pophost.com on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 08:07:54PM -0800 References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001202133953.00ab0c00@199.166.24.1> <4.0.1.20001203200536.008efee0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20001204022945.A30921@cluebot.com> You found me out. I'll be sure to report you at the next meeting of the Council on Foreign Relations, a joint event with the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers. The Orbital Mind Control Lasers won't just be set on "stun" this time. -Declan, not speaking for any pod, tentacle, or any other vaguely protoplasmic lifeform that may or may not be associated with the U.S. national security apparatus. On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 08:07:54PM -0800, Richard Fiero wrote: > There can now be no doubt that Wired is a pod of the US national > security apparatus like CNN is. > ===== > > Joe Baptista wrote: > > > > > >Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs (Politics 2:00 a.m. PST) > >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40449,00.html?tw=wn20001202 > >Palestinian supporters have created a site from where they distribute > >tools and viruses to fellow believers in the fight against Israel. > >Visitors are greeted with a message: 'I swear that I will not use these > >programs on anyone but Jews and Israelis.' By Carmen Gentile. > >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > > >-- > >Joe Baptista > >www.dot.god > > > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Dec 4 02:49:05 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 02:49:05 -0800 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: References: <200012040559.AAA01725@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001204024905.019f8610@idiom.com> At 11:24 PM 12/3/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Adam Back wrote: >>The protocols you list are online. Not that this is a bad thing -- I >>kind of prefer the online idea -- rather than the "and then you go to >>jail" implications of fraud tracing in the offline protocols. Plus >>you have a risk of accidentally double spending if your computer >>crashes or something. > >I think that would depend on the banker. "Bob spent this hundred >dollars three times," muses Alice. "Check and see if he's got >overdraft protection for the extra two hundred... if he doesn't, >then put it on his credit card with a fifteen dollar loan orignation >fee and charge him two percent a month...." Jail time, in most >cases, probably just isn't profitable for the bankers. After all, The issue isn't whether jail or just extra charges are the appropriate remedy for double-spending - it's that the offline methods generally rely on encoding a user's name in the coins so you can tell who did the double spending, which not only adds a lot of administrative overhead but requires that you have a system of identification of your users. Some online methods also do the "identify and punish" approach; others do the far simpler "first one to grab the money wins" approach to double-spending, which is better for anonymity, though it imposes different risks on the users. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Sun Dec 3 18:29:48 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 03:29:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: manual crypto Message-ID: <66ef517c1b433d6a2308a97aa661099a@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Well, not crypto but stego. I was looking for ways to use existing infrastructure for transporting ascii messages to send info which is not harvestable by machines. This came up: It is intended for cross-eyed free viewing. Cross your eyes until the Vs and Xs at the top and bottom overlap with the adjacent ones. V V V V V OIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJF EDGHOUIEROUIYWEVDGHOXUIEROIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWE KJBSVDBOIWERTBAKJBSVEDBOIWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBA SFDHNWECTBYUVRGSFDHNYWECTBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRG HNOWFHLSFDGWVRGHNOWFGHLSFDWVRGHNOWSFGHLSDWVRGHNLOWSFGLSDWVRG YPOWVXTNWFECHRGYPOWVEXTNWFCHRGYPOWNVEXTNFCHRGYPWOWNVETNFCHRG SVYUWXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETU WVERBYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIWEYUIVWLVERBEOIWEYUI EUIOETOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUNWEBYOETUIOEWOUNWEBY WFVEWVETN9PUW4TWFVEWPVETN9UW4TWFVETWPVET9UW4TWFBVETWPET9UW4T NOUWQERFECHIBYWNOUWQXERFECIBYWNOUWFQXERFCIBYWNOFUWFQXRFCIBYW VEHWETUQECRFVEVEHWERTUQECFVEVEHWQERTUQCFVEVEOHWQERUQCFVE UIWTUIRTWUYWQCRUIWTUYIRTWUWQCRUIWTXUYIRTUWQCRUIBWTXUYRTUWQCR IYPOWOXNPWTHIECIYPOWTOXNPWHIECIYPONWTOXNWHIECIYLPONWTXNWHIEC R9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYB Any sources for making these ? I know that it can be machine-read, by extracting 3D figure and OCR-ing, but not today easily and in quantity. From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 4 06:22:55 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:22:55 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:24 PM -0800 on 12/3/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: > "Check and see if he's got > overdraft protection for the extra two hundred... if he doesn't, > then put it on his credit card with a fifteen dollar loan orignation > fee and charge him two percent a month...." Doesn't work like that. It's more like "Eediot. That's what you get for doing an offline transaction. No soup for you!" :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 4 06:25:14 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:25:14 -0500 Subject: Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs In-Reply-To: <20001204022945.A30921@cluebot.com> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001202133953.00ab0c00@199.166.24.1> <4.0.1.20001203200536.008efee0@postoffice.pacbell.net> <20001204022945.A30921@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 2:29 AM -0500 on 12/4/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > You found me out. I'll be sure to report you at the next meeting of > the Council on Foreign Relations, a joint event with the Trilateral > Commission and the Bilderbergers. The Orbital Mind Control Lasers > won't just be set on "stun" this time. > > -Declan, not speaking for any pod, tentacle, or any other vaguely > protoplasmic lifeform that may or may not be associated with the > U.S. national security apparatus. Actually, it's quite okay to talk to Declan. As long as you're wearing your extra-tin-foil hat, anyway... :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From supplies at cybercart.cc Mon Dec 4 07:00:11 2000 From: supplies at cybercart.cc (Supplies) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:00:11 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <003601c05e02$ea04c2e0$0200a8c0@frontdesk> www.ontarioforum.com BROUGHT TO YOU FREE OF CHARGE BY ASK US HOW YOU TOO CAN BE A SPONSOR admin at ontarioforum.com If this email causes you any inconvenience whatsoever please email us and we will remove you from our addresses. Thank You -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9893 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Dec 4 11:13:05 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:13:05 -0800 Subject: manual crypto Message-ID: <3A2BECC1.5DB544B4@lsil.com> I've got sources kicking around somewhere that do this with noise patterns in monochrome bitmaps. I'm not sure if the effect using ascii is achieved in the exact same way - no doubt it is very closely related but not as dense as the bitmaps. Mike > >Well, not crypto but stego. > >I was looking for ways to use existing infrastructure for >transporting ascii messages to send info which is not >harvestable by machines. > >This came up: > >It is intended for cross-eyed free viewing. Cross your eyes until the >Vs and Xs at the top and bottom overlap with the adjacent ones. > >V V V V V >OIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJF >EDGHOUIEROUIYWEVDGHOXUIEROIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWE >KJBSVDBOIWERTBAKJBSVEDBOIWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBA >SFDHNWECTBYUVRGSFDHNYWECTBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRG >HNOWFHLSFDGWVRGHNOWFGHLSFDWVRGHNOWSFGHLSDWVRGHNLOWSFGLSDWVRG >YPOWVXTNWFECHRGYPOWVEXTNWFCHRGYPOWNVEXTNFCHRGYPWOWNVETNFCHRG >SVYUWXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETU >WVERBYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIWEYUIVWLVERBEOIWEYUI >EUIOETOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUNWEBYOETUIOEWOUNWEBY >WFVEWVETN9PUW4TWFVEWPVETN9UW4TWFVETWPVET9UW4TWFBVETWPET9UW4T >NOUWQERFECHIBYWNOUWQXERFECIBYWNOUWFQXERFCIBYWNOFUWFQXRFCIBYW >VEHWETUQECRFVEVEHWERTUQECFVEVEHWQERTUQCFVEVEOHWQERUQCFVE >UIWTUIRTWUYWQCRUIWTUYIRTWUWQCRUIWTXUYIRTUWQCRUIBWTXUYRTUWQCR >IYPOWOXNPWTHIECIYPOWTOXNPWHIECIYPONWTOXNWHIECIYLPONWTXNWHIEC >R9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYB > >Any sources for making these ? > >I know that it can be machine-read, by extracting 3D figure >and OCR-ing, but not today easily and in quantity. From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 4 08:27:39 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:27:39 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001204021140.01d375f0@idiom.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203200014.04f3ceb0@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:26 AM 12/4/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >Traditional Chinese copyright law only applied to civilization, >i.e. Chinese-language books written by Chinese; stuff written by >barbarians wasn't provided, so lots of my Taiwanese fellow students in college >had much lower-cost versions of US-written textbooks, and that tradition >was adapted to software on CD-ROMs at least until recently. Maybe so with Chinese, but many publishers publish overseas-only versions of CS texts because the furriners (e.g., Indians) couldn't afford US rates. I've seen legitimately licensed $5 copies of, e.g., K & R printed on thinner paper... From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Mon Dec 4 11:57:11 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:57:11 -0800 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DDA1@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> http://www0.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/internet/docs/705193l.htm Was this missed by everyone? Or did it appear in another form? Ern -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 677 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 4 09:23:15 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:23:15 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203200014.04f3ceb0@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: At 11:27 AM -0500 12/4/00, David Honig wrote: >At 05:26 AM 12/4/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >>Traditional Chinese copyright law only applied to civilization, >>i.e. Chinese-language books written by Chinese; stuff written by >>barbarians wasn't provided, so lots of my Taiwanese fellow students in >college >>had much lower-cost versions of US-written textbooks, and that tradition >>was adapted to software on CD-ROMs at least until recently. > >Maybe so with Chinese, but many publishers publish >overseas-only versions of CS texts because the furriners (e.g., Indians) >couldn't afford US rates. I've seen legitimately licensed $5 copies >of, e.g., K & R printed on thinner paper... > Do you mean you have an independent channel confirming this "legitimate license," or do you mean the rice paper version has carefully reproduced an approval page? Did you check with the copyright holders? (And independent channel would be a letter or even an electronic statement from the copyright holders saying the version was valid. A digitally signed statement would do.) I don't doubt that differential marketing plans will evolve. Selling a CD-ROM of Microsoft Office for $300 US in Bangalore is just not going to fly, not with the back-alley version selling for the rupee equivalent of $5. "The street will find its own uses for technology." And once Mojo gets running, I'm hoping to buy Microsoft Office for 10 Mojobucks. (So I can then resell it to 50 others....) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Mon Dec 4 10:04:27 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:04:27 -0500 Subject: German Faces Charges for Selling Adolf Sofa Message-ID: <55bfb85db82c706b2c271f86386637db@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Monday December 4 9:56 AM ET German Faces Charges for Selling Adolf Sofa Set By Fiona Shaikh BERLIN (Reuters) - A furniture-shop owner should be charged with breaking Germanys anti-Nazi laws for naming chairs and sofas after Adolf Hitler and other Third Reich leaders, a local Jewish community leader said on Monday. Michael Fuerst, leader of the Jewish community in Lower Saxony state, urged state prosecutors in Hanover to charge store owner Franz-Georg Schwetje with violating strict laws against glorifying the Third Reich for using names such as Adolf and Hermann for his sofa sets. Schwetje ran advertisements for his sofa sale in a local newspaper in Hildesheim, 18 miles south of the central city of Hanover, bearing the name Three-piece sofa set Adolf -- marked down to 2,998 marks ($1,600) from 5,998 marks. He also listed a Cabinet Rommel and Chest of drawers Paulus after World War Two generals Erwin Rommel and Friedrich Paulus. The Hermann three-piece sofa set, which recalls Luftwaffe Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering, was also marked down. The ads represent a clear glorification of the Third Reich and we have urged the state prosecutors to initiate legal proceedings against Schwetje, Fuerst told Reuters. Well have to see what charges the state prosecutors decide to raise. Schwertje insisted there was no Nazi connection. I simply passed along the names that my suppliers provided, he told Reuters in a telephone interview. Im not a Nazi and I dont want to have anything to do with such people. Those right-wing extremists should be locked up. Schwetje, 57, added that he could not remember writing the advertisements because he takes pain-killers for bone cancer. He nevertheless said the names were harmless -- and that he had relatives in mind rather than Nazi leaders. If Id given the furniture a name like Sachsenhausen, that would be a different matter, said Schwetje, referring to a notorious Nazi concentration camp. But the sofa suite Hermann is named after my uncle -- Hermann Schwetje. The Greens party in Lower Saxony called for a boycott of the furniture store. The local chambers of commerce were also considering legal sanctions. Not one of my customers has complained about the adverts, Schwetje said. But the Jewish community said they were offended. So I am going to make a donation to the Jewish group. Im not sure how much, but at least 1,000 marks. Germany has been plagued by a surge in far-right crime since unity in 1990. The German government has responded by seeking to ban the far right National Democratic Party. From bear at sonic.net Mon Dec 4 14:35:17 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: manual crypto In-Reply-To: <3A2BECC1.5DB544B4@lsil.com> Message-ID: Actually, extracting a 3d image is not required. The patterns that human eyes percieve as 3d images can easily be percieved directly by machines. Sources for making SIRDS images from text are easily adapted as sources for reading them as text. Bear On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >I've got sources kicking around somewhere that do this with noise >patterns in monochrome bitmaps. I'm not sure if the effect using ascii >is achieved in the exact same way - no doubt it is very closely related >but not as dense as the bitmaps. > >Mike >> >>Well, not crypto but stego. >> >>I was looking for ways to use existing infrastructure for >>transporting ascii messages to send info which is not >>harvestable by machines. >> >>This came up: >> >>It is intended for cross-eyed free viewing. Cross your eyes until the >>Vs and Xs at the top and bottom overlap with the adjacent ones. >> >>V V V V V >>OIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJF >>EDGHOUIEROUIYWEVDGHOXUIEROIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWE >>KJBSVDBOIWERTBAKJBSVEDBOIWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBA >>SFDHNWECTBYUVRGSFDHNYWECTBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRG >>HNOWFHLSFDGWVRGHNOWFGHLSFDWVRGHNOWSFGHLSDWVRGHNLOWSFGLSDWVRG >>YPOWVXTNWFECHRGYPOWVEXTNWFCHRGYPOWNVEXTNFCHRGYPWOWNVETNFCHRG >>SVYUWXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETU >>WVERBYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIWEYUIVWLVERBEOIWEYUI >>EUIOETOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUNWEBYOETUIOEWOUNWEBY >>WFVEWVETN9PUW4TWFVEWPVETN9UW4TWFVETWPVET9UW4TWFBVETWPET9UW4T >>NOUWQERFECHIBYWNOUWQXERFECIBYWNOUWFQXERFCIBYWNOFUWFQXRFCIBYW >>VEHWETUQECRFVEVEHWERTUQECFVEVEHWQERTUQCFVEVEOHWQERUQCFVE >>UIWTUIRTWUYWQCRUIWTUYIRTWUWQCRUIWTXUYIRTUWQCRUIBWTXUYRTUWQCR >>IYPOWOXNPWTHIECIYPOWTOXNPWHIECIYPONWTOXNWHIECIYLPONWTXNWHIEC >>R9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYB >> >>Any sources for making these ? >> >>I know that it can be machine-read, by extracting 3D figure >>and OCR-ing, but not today easily and in quantity. > > From danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au Sun Dec 3 19:49:20 2000 From: danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:49:20 +1100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com>; from lizard@mrlizard.com on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 05:28:28PM -0800 References: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <20001204144920.A20701@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> Lizard wrote: > Really? Doesn't the Berne convention override national laws? Probably, yes. Does that mean national copyright laws only apply to their own citizens/residents? What happens in the case of dual citizenship? And does place of publication come into it? Danny. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Dec 4 11:55:58 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:55:58 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001204021140.01d375f0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001204114947.01a38a60@idiom.com> At 11:27 AM 12/4/00 -0500, David Honig wrote: >At 05:26 AM 12/4/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >>Traditional Chinese copyright law only applied to civilization, >>i.e. Chinese-language books written by Chinese; stuff written by >>barbarians wasn't provided, so lots of my Taiwanese fellow students in >college >>had much lower-cost versions of US-written textbooks, and that tradition >>was adapted to software on CD-ROMs at least until recently. > >Maybe so with Chinese, but many publishers publish >overseas-only versions of CS texts because the furriners (e.g., Indians) >couldn't afford US rates. I've seen legitimately licensed $5 copies >of, e.g., K & R printed on thinner paper... That's legitimate, though it often leads to gray-market rules about smuggling stuff. Many of the Chinese-printed textbooks I saw had covers indicating that they were cookbooks, etc., to conceal that they were pirate editions. Tim writes: >I don't doubt that differential marketing plans will evolve. Selling >a CD-ROM of Microsoft Office for $300 US in Bangalore is just not >going to fly, not with the back-alley version selling for the rupee >equivalent of $5. > >"The street will find its own uses for technology." > >And once Mojo gets running, I'm hoping to buy Microsoft Office for 10 >Mojobucks. > >(So I can then resell it to 50 others....) Tim, you're evil and twisted. Not because you're suggesting ripping off MS, but because you're proposing inflicting that unreliable bloatware on people :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 4 12:05:02 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:05:02 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001204120233.007a7c50@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:23 PM 12/4/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > >Do you mean you have an independent channel confirming this >"legitimate license," or do you mean the rice paper version has >carefully reproduced an approval page? I believed the dead-tree 'region codes'. I had no reason to be more diligent. Not my royalties :-) Besides, since when are fake Rolexes engraved with something saying, "This cheap fake is authorized by Rolex Inc for sale to third worlders only" Neither did I check to see if the texts were the same. You are merely making a point about authentication I presume? From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Mon Dec 4 12:33:36 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:33:36 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DDA1@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <3A2C0006.79ECB2A6@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> > n an October 18 statement signed by groups around the world, critics > said logs based on such archived data had been used to track > dissidents and > persecute minorities. > We urge you not to establish this requirement in a modern > communications network,'' said a 27-group coalition including the > American Civil Liberties > Union, Privacy International and the Internet Society. > > `Police agencies and powerful private interests acting outside of the > democratic means of accountability have sought to use a closed process > to establish > rules that will have the effect of binding legislation,'' the groups > added. > > In its response to these concerns, the Justice Department said there > was no such retention requirement at issue but a data ``preservation'' > provision. > > "Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United > States for nearly five years,'' the statement said. Preservation of logs is "the law"? That's news to me. I've never preserved a log over the 4 weeks or so that the default unix config. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Mon Dec 4 13:00:48 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:00:48 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DDA1@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> <3A2C0006.79ECB2A6@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <3A2C0656.81F1C0EC@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Harmon Seaver wrote: > > "Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United > > States for nearly five years,'' the statement said. > > Preservation of logs is "the law"? That's news to me. I've never > preserved a log over the 4 weeks or so that the default unix config. > Not only that, but we don't and have never kept any sort of router logs, which is really what they would be after, I'd think. And we are the ISP for all the libraries in the whole NE part of MN. Just think of all those perverts and narco-terrorists using the free internet access in our libraries to keep in touch with Osama anonymously. Shame on us, shame, shame! -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Dec 4 15:01:34 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:01:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Computer logs Message-ID: FindLaw doesn't show anything for 'computer logs'. Other than destroying them because they are evidence of a crime I am not aware of anything that might require anyone to keep them. There certainly wasn't any sort of requirement for folks like myself at the time of the CJ trial to keep records for any length of time. The flip side is that if you go around destroying all your logs as they are made the security of your system comes into question. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Dec 4 15:15:40 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:15:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: persuasive speeches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 Lockinator21 at aol.com wrote: > I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? "How to choose persuasive speech topics". ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 4 14:38:55 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:38:55 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <3A2C0656.81F1C0EC@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: At 4:00 PM -0500 12/4/00, Harmon Seaver wrote: >Harmon Seaver wrote: > >> > "Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United >> > States for nearly five years,'' the statement said. >> >> Preservation of logs is "the law"? That's news to me. I've never >> preserved a log over the 4 weeks or so that the default unix config. >> > > Not only that, but we don't and have never kept any sort of >router logs, >which is really what they would be after, I'd think. And we are the >ISP for all >the libraries in the whole NE part of MN. Just think of all those perverts and >narco-terrorists using the free internet access in our libraries to >keep in touch >with Osama anonymously. Shame on us, shame, shame! I did some Google searches, on "preservation logs online" and found nothing. I tried some variations. I expect the nature of legal data bases is that Google will probably not turn up obscure legal rulings which failed to get media or activist attention. Maybe Findlaw will turn up something. I would be very interesting in seeing the full context of the U.S. official's basis for his comment that "preservation has been the law for nearly five years." From the time period, I am expecting CALEA is being implicated here. It would be an interesting First Amendment case if there were some putative requirement that all communications be logged (absent some specific court order to do so). The cynical point of view is that this is just one of the tens of thousands of regulations which our overbusy imperial capital generates every year. More things to turn us all into felons. I briefly had some hope when I saw a yellow Ryder truck heading north, towards Washington. Hot damn, I thought, we're gonna see another mcveighing! Alas, it was only some chads and dimples. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 4 15:44:53 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:44:53 -0600 Subject: persuasive speeches Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73F8@cobra.netsolve.net> How about a business case for relaxing intellectual property regulations? If you could put together a good persuasive speech on that one, I would like to see it. Or you could do a persuasive speech on the economic advantages of more lenient cryptographic export restrictions. Or you could do what I did when I had that project in school (and this is my personal recommendation) - blow off class to go hang out in the gallery of the House, get there and remember it's tourist season and they are rotating people through in five minute intervals, and decide to go downtown and get drunk. I then had to deliver a persuasive speech the next day on why it was more important to skip class and get drunk than to do assignments, which didn't impress anyone and earned me a failure on the assignment. Or you could subscribe to the speech writing mailing list (I'm sure there is one) and ask them. -----Original Message----- From: Lockinator21 at aol.com [mailto:Lockinator21 at aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 4:51 PM To: cypherpunks at toad.com Cc: pitbull32 at excite.com Subject: persuasive speeches I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1755 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Lockinator21 at aol.com Mon Dec 4 14:51:02 2000 From: Lockinator21 at aol.com (Lockinator21 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:51:02 EST Subject: persuasive speeches Message-ID: I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 4 15:53:55 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:53:55 -0600 Subject: Computer logs Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73F9@cobra.netsolve.net> It is possible for you to receive a freeze order that will compel you to maintain referenced records. These orders (generally received prior to a pending subpoena) can be rather general, so this generally serves the purpose of preventing you from going on a shred/rm/wipe/degauss spree before the authorities get what they want from you. However, I do know of at least one case where someone challenged such a document on the basis that it was obtuse. Can't cite off the top of my head, though. If you would like to see some copies of documents that are generally used by feds to accomplish these goals, let me know. I will see if I can neuter some for reference purposes. ok, Rush -----Original Message----- From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 5:02 PM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Computer logs FindLaw doesn't show anything for 'computer logs'. Other than destroying them because they are evidence of a crime I am not aware of anything that might require anyone to keep them. There certainly wasn't any sort of requirement for folks like myself at the time of the CJ trial to keep records for any length of time. The flip side is that if you go around destroying all your logs as they are made the security of your system comes into question. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4005 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dorr at asc.upenn.edu Mon Dec 4 15:37:50 2000 From: dorr at asc.upenn.edu (Daniel Orr) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 18:37:50 -0500 Subject: persuasive speeches Message-ID: "We must also take into account the nature of our particular audience when making a speech of praise; for, as Socrates used to say, 'it is not difficult to praise the Athenians to an Athenian audience.'" - Aristotle, On Rhetoric -----Original Message----- From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 6:16 PM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: persuasive speeches On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 Lockinator21 at aol.com wrote: > I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? "How to choose persuasive speech topics". ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bpayne37 at home.com Mon Dec 4 18:24:58 2000 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bpayne37 at home.com) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 19:24:58 -0700 Subject: sami warah Message-ID: <3A2C51F9.913FE129@home.com> art Weclome to israeli 'intelligence.' http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/buehlerpayne.html We got to get out of this stuff. With our money, of course. From mike722 at arabia.com Mon Dec 4 15:34:56 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:34:56 -0400 Subject: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200012042334.TAA05273@mail.cufan.mil.ve> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. 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Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Mon Dec 4 15:34:58 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:34:58 -0400 Subject: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200012042334.TAA05285@mail.cufan.mil.ve> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. 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Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Mon Dec 4 15:35:01 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:35:01 -0400 Subject: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200012042335.TAA05299@mail.cufan.mil.ve> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Mon Dec 4 15:35:02 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:35:02 -0400 Subject: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200012042335.TAA05306@mail.cufan.mil.ve> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From quailrun at centex.net Mon Dec 4 18:35:04 2000 From: quailrun at centex.net (S. Hunter) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 20:35:04 -0600 Subject: ip: Chaos Theory Message-ID: http://www.lewrockwell.com/murphy/murphy19.html Chaos Theory by Bob Murphy Throughout history, there have been countless arguments advanced to support the State. None of them has been valid. This essay will address a certain class of these arguments, whose sleight-of-hand consists in a definitional trick. My purpose here is not to make the positive case for pure laissez-faire, but merely to show that each pro-government argument is a non sequitur. Anarchy is the absence of government, both in political science and everyday usage (it is the first definition given by Websters, e.g.). Chaos, in the context of social science, refers to lawlessness, or the absence of a relative degree of regularity in human affairs. (I say a "relative degree" because, obviously, virtually all humans will always obey the rule of, e.g., avoiding someone with leprosy or not slaughtering every female in sight. The laws to which lawlessness is opposed are generally meant to imply the sometimes irksome rules necessary for a civil society.) It should be immediately clear that anarchy and chaos are distinct things; you can have anarchy without chaos (e.g. groups of humans from the Stone Age  if you subscribe to evolutionary accounts) and you can have chaos without anarchy (e.g. the French Revolution, if you subscribe to historical accounts). Any argument that conflates anarchy and chaos is thus invalid. Before proceeding, I ask the reader to indulge me in a brief digression. People often chide me for calling myself an anarchist, rather than a libertarian. The term anarchy conjures up images of atheist nuts who go around throwing bombs. Wouldnt it be much more palatable to make appeals for liberty, rather than for anarchy? Sure it would; but Im not running for class president. (I tried that once. I had the funniest posters an eighth-grader ever designed, and I posted them in the bathroom, where everyone would be sure to see! The other kids peed on them. I didnt win. Is that why Im so bitter?) Also, the statists have had quite a time of stealing labels. The good guys used to be the "liberals." No longer. The good guys used to be the ones championing ever more "rights" for the individual. No longer. The very word liberty has been raped, and I have no doubt that libertarian can be perverted to mean whatever the ruling class wants it to mean. Aside from the danger of devious usage, there is also the legitimate distinction that must be made between those who advocate a "night watchman" state  which merely enforces property rights  and those who favor complete abolition of government. Many people of the former group refer to themselves as libertarians. (They are inconsistent and confused, of course, but thats okay. Theyll come around.) Thus, to avoid any possible confusion, I advocate anarchy, pure and simple. (Also, it sounds tough to say you are an anarchist. Well, it looks tough in print. It wont help you in a fight or anything.) I should also mention that anarchy is not a good of itself; what I really desire is the truly free society. Its just that, in my opinion, only anarchy can achieve this. So, in terms of ethics or morality, I would say the highest end is freedom. But in terms of political science  dealing with forms of government  I would say the goal is anarchy. (To quote my friends bumper sticker: "Theres no government like no government.") This is somewhat analogous to the approach of Friedrich Hayek, who believed in democracy as the best means to a (relatively) free society. Although he was wrong in this conclusion, he was not so naive as to worship democracy per se. Lastly: Certain wise-alecks think they can refute my ideal of "absolute freedom" with a flippant syllogism. One of my smug conservative professors at Hillsdale College (which had a plaque in the library espousing the ideal of "Ordered Liberty," which struck me as akin to "Partial Pregnancy") offered an argument along the following lines: You cant have absolute or total freedom, because if Im free to kill you, then you cant be free to live. This is the sort of strawman logic you expect from sophomore philosophy majors (also prevalent at Hillsdale), which goes through only on a twisted definition of freedom. Imagine the scene from Mad Max, where Mel Gibson gets thrown into the cage to fight that huge brute. (You know, when everyone starts chanting, "Two men enter, one man leave!") Now suppose the "referee" says to the combatants, "All right guys, anything goes!" My question: Would it be legitimate for Gibson, as hes getting his head smashed in, to complain to the ref: "Liar! You said anything goes! I wanted to recite Hamlet!" Of course not. Yet this is precisely the argument of my college professor. So, when I say I desire a society of total freedom, I mean a society where people respect the property of others. I do not mean the physically impossible situation where two people both eat the same piece of pizza, or where people have the "freedom" to jump over the Moon. Finally, on to my main point. One of the most frequent statist tricks is the following: (1) The government assumes the responsibility of X. (2) The government screws up horribly. (3) The government cites the mess as proof of the necessity for government action. (For example, after every plane crash, people demand the FAA gets more funding. After the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy, an ex-CIA agent wrote an Op-Ed piece explaining that budget hikes were necessary to update the maps. Imagine if Firestone, after the recall fiasco, explained that it needed to raise its prices in order to provide safer tires. Im sure Ralph Nader would give them a thumbs-up.) P.J. ORourke, in his funny book, Eat the Rich, has a chapter called "Bad Capitalism," in which he says that a certain country (Albania?) is the victim of a giant Ponzi scheme  i.e. you cant have too much economic freedom. Although ORourke doesnt explain how a Ponzi scheme can make the group as a whole poorer (the original Ponzi, after all, got rich  thats why he started his scheme), his basic message is a good one, so Im not too bothered by his slight error. The same cannot be said for Ian Fisher, who wrote an August 10th article for the NY Times entitled, "Somali Businesses Stunted by Too-Free Enterprise." After detailing the thriving business competition in Somalia, Fisher sadly relates: What Somalia does not have is a government...[making] it the worlds purest laboratory for capitalism. No one collects taxes. Business is booming. Libertarians of the world, unite! So it may come as a surprise that business people in Mogadishu, the wrecked and lawless capital, are begging for a government. They would love to be taxed and would gladly let politicians meddle at least a bit in their affairs. If everyone is willing to pay for protection services, whats stopping them? Further, its a bit fishy to describe a group of warlords who use violent thugs to exact tribute as the absence of government, since a government is, among other things, a group of warlords who use violent thugs to exact tribute. (I know, I know, the common argument against anarchy is that it would entail the situation of warrior bands, and that I seem to be using a definitional trick myself  but this articles already way too long. All I shall mention further on the Somalia example is this: Even if it were the case that the Somalia situation can happen when we overthrow "government," this alone would prove nothing. I can just as well point to Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and Pol Potian Cambodia as examples of government gone bad. Take your pick.) But the best comes from a recent haughty piece by that oh-so-clever Paulina Borsook, who first quotes from her book, Cyberselfish: Quiz: where would you want to do business in 2000? In Russia where theres no regulation, no central government, no rule of law; or in Northern California where the roads are mostly well-paved and well-patrolled and trucks and airplanes are safer than not...where people mostly dont have to pay protection money, and the majority of law-enforcement personnel are not terribly corrupt or brutal? This is classic. Now Russia is cited as an example of pure capitalism? As a land of no central government?? Give me a break. Borsook destroys her own argument by saying the law enforcement personnel are not terribly corrupt or brutal. (We overlook what a silly defense indeed it is to say, "The majority of people under my proposed system will not be terribly corrupt or brutal.") By this she is undoubtedly referring to the fact that relatively more police officers in Russia are corrupt and brutal. Well then, were not dealing with anarchy, are we, Ms. Borsook? (Oh yeah: People in California do pay protection money: They call it T-A-X-E-S.) Borsook then continues: I will instead mention a recent nasty epidemic of food-poisoning that just erupted at a Mexican restaurant in San Mateo county....Turns out the restaurant hadnt been inspected in more than a year because  surprise!  it turns out budget cuts made it impossible to hire enough health inspectors. But hey, government is the Great Satan and we all believe in self-regulation and who needs taxes? Again, I feel silly even pointing this out, but this sort of argument is made over and over. Do you see what Borsook is trying to pull here? She is ridiculing those who think the government does a bad job regulating private industry. To demonstrate their error, she cites an example of government doing a bad job regulating private industry. Like I said, you hear this sort of argument anytime chaos erupts. So Bob, youre opposed to government control, eh? Try telling that to the peasants in Colombia! Ho ho, Bob, youre for anarchy, eh? Why dont you move to the Gaza Strip? The Colombian case is exactly the same as Borsooks Mexican restaurant. The Colombian government taxes its citizens in order to provide police and legal services, and it fails miserably. We must never confuse governments impotence with governments absence. And whatever else you want to call it  i.e. unwarranted oppression or legitimate defense of settlers  you certainly cannot describe government soldiers shooting children as anarchy. Are certain regions in chaos? Sure. In anarchy? I wish. December 1, 2000 Bob Murphy is a graduate student in New York City. Back to LewRockwell.com Home Page --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Dec 4 19:00:23 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 21:00:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Computer logs In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73F9@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > It is possible for you to receive a freeze order that will compel you > to maintain referenced records. These orders (generally received prior to a > pending subpoena) can be rather general, so this generally serves the > purpose of preventing you from going on a shred/rm/wipe/degauss spree before > the authorities get what they want from you. However, I do know of at least > one case where someone challenged such a document on the basis that it was > obtuse. Can't cite off the top of my head, though. If you would like to see > some copies of documents that are generally used by feds to accomplish these > goals, let me know. I will see if I can neuter some for reference purposes. > > ok, Actually it's not. It completely misrepresents the initial statement that law in the US requires logs to be kept. It doesn't. A court may order it but that's another matter all together. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 4 18:04:09 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 21:04:09 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001204114947.01a38a60@idiom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001204174904.007d29c0@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:49 AM 12/4/00 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >That's legitimate, though it often leads to gray-market rules >about smuggling stuff. >Many of the Chinese-printed textbooks I saw had covers >indicating that they were cookbooks, etc., to conceal that >they were pirate editions. > Hilarious. I might have offered to buy a K & R disguised as a chinese cookbook. From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 4 18:14:42 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 21:14:42 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DDA1@galileo.luminousnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:00 PM 12/4/00 -0500, Ernest Hua wrote: > >http://www0.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/internet/docs/70519 This just about sums it up: Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said the pact could force police in the United States to conduct searches under rules established by treaty ''that don't respect the limits of police powers imposed by the U.S. Constitution.'' http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001204/wr/crime_tech_dc_1.html From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Dec 4 21:35:11 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 21:35:11 -0800 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <200012040614.BAA01737@cypherspace.org> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001129090722.0206f4a8@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001204205750.01d5c1a8@shell11.ba.best.com> -- James A. Donald: > > There have been many attempts at ecash, but I am not aware of any > > products involving useful, spendable, convenient, anonymous ecash > > targeted at that or similar markets [immoral or illegal]. The > > only really usable anonymous ecash was that of the Mark Twain > > bank, which crippled its cash to prevent it from being used by > > that market. At 01:14 AM 12/4/2000 -0500, Adam Back wrote: > I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application was > MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related to > pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for > providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. Payee traceability made it possible to close accounts related to pornography. Ecash is not truly cash like if the issuer can prevent it from being used by tax evaders, child pornographers, money launderers and terrorists. > I'd have thought the thing to do was put an ecash client in Mozilla > and work on getting it into netscape. Plus download plugins for > Internet Explorer. Internet explorer already has the necessary hooks. If we put the ecash wallet into an active X control then when the user navigates to a ecash page, the user will see the usual warning "Do you trust code signed by so and so". If he clicks yes, the code will be downloaded to the client and installed behind the scenes, and he will never see that warning again, unless he encounters a page with an updated version of the ecash control. > So whoever develops enough clue, capability and interest in making > money to do this someday needs to think about making it work with > existing credit card sites. The html code on the thumbnail page where one clicks on a porno link will need to be rewritten to support ecash. If the porno page server is using IIS, the server will need an ISAPI extension to handle URL's containing ecash payments. Apache has a similar extension mechanism, but I have never written an extension for an Apache server. The page that has for-pay links does not need anything unusual about its server, or about the client's Internet explorer, but the server that serves links containing ecoins in their urls will need an extension, similar to extensions I have written before. > Try to make it as painless and instant as possible to buy ecash. Unfortunately, if ecash is truly untraceable, you cannot give people their ecash until their payment clears, which means you cannot let them pay by credit card. They would be able to pay by e-gold, Paypal, paper cheque or wire transfer. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG x0aQgxEwqS2LNXHW/WBr5lXjkd0JE6+AaYOr2dkP 474TkCMxTMOHpLrXcZYopVPpq36AognlIJ/uEvK0D From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:21:54 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:21:54 -0500 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050321.WAA09301@domains.invweb.net> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 4 21:16:11 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 00:16:11 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 9:14 PM -0500 12/4/00, David Honig wrote: >At 03:00 PM 12/4/00 -0500, Ernest Hua wrote: >> >>http://www0.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/internet/docs/70519 > >This just about sums it up: > >Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil > Liberties Union, said the pact could force police in the > United States to conduct searches under rules established > by treaty ''that don't respect the limits of police powers > imposed by the U.S. Constitution.'' > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001204/wr/crime_tech_dc_1.html > This is old news to followers of the New World Order, the Blue Helmets, and the Zionist Occupation Government. Barry S. is reacting quickly to the changing ground truth of the election: the civil liberties groups used to avoid such implications of the NWO, but now that Republicans are about to take over, the ACLU will likely soon be talking about black helicopters and re-education camps being built to house the political prisoners. I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ngps at post1.com Mon Dec 4 08:47:47 2000 From: ngps at post1.com (Ng Pheng Siong) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 00:47:47 +0800 Subject: [Announce] M2Crypto 0.05p1 and Win32 binaries Message-ID: <20001205004747.D805@madcap.dyndns.org> Hello, M2Crypto 0.05p1 is now available, in source and Win32 binary packages. M2Crypto is a Python interface to OpenSSL's crypto, SSL and S/MIME functionality. Get it here: http://www.post1.com/home/ngps/m2 As usual, feedback is welcome. -- Ng Pheng Siong * http://www.post1.com/home/ngps From petro at bounty.org Tue Dec 5 01:41:05 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:41:05 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mr. May: > >(And then there's Riad Wahby, whose signed messages are unopenable >by Eudora Pro. He is doing _something_ which makes my very-common >mailer choke on his messages. Not my problem, as his messages then >get deleted by me unread. Again, standard ASCII is the lingua franca >which avoids this problem.) He's apparently using GPG, and he has been told about this. He doesn't seem to care. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 01:59:36 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 04:59:36 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012050959.EAA16077@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dwarf4you.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 02:11:12 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:11:12 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BEC@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Dec 5 02:19:43 2000 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:19:43 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Message-ID: Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 02:25:44 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:25:44 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012051025.FAA18767@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dwarf4you.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 02:40:17 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:40:17 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BEE@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mohenry at pilot.infi.net Tue Dec 5 02:49:58 2000 From: mohenry at pilot.infi.net (Henry J. Wakefield) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:49:58 -0500 Subject: pornography Message-ID: <3A2CC856.ECE369DC@pilot.infi.net> can you please send me a copy of the encrypted version of this mail. i want to reveiw it and find out who made it or if it is someone i think might have done it pls send it to me thank you. please email me at folgore at infi.net From PAul at toad.com Tue Dec 5 06:29:39 2000 From: PAul at toad.com (PAul at toad.com) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 06:29:39 Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help Message-ID: <645.509661.638061@Dell> Ritual Satanic Ritual Abuse in Denver Need Help HI and Prrraise the Lord: My wife Rev. Helen ( revhelen at tds.net ) got the following e mail message. I didn't know what to do with it. Maybe you know someone that can check this out or pass it on to someone in the Denver area. I sent it to Marilyn Hickey's ministry as she is in Denver. Thanks Rev. Paul at The SPRIG http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings/ 423-496-1114 or 423-496-1777 Turtletown Tennesee Subject: ritual abuse > I am a victim of satanic torture and mind control requesting prayer on one > of the locations where I was abused and used for pornagraphy. It is > Denver's Domestic Violence Shelter @940 E 17th Ave. Very influential > citizens are involved they used their planes to fly us out of Denver to be > exploited for vile sex. This shelter is still operating in the old mortuary > building. > > Praise God I was delivered! Other victims need help. I couldn't find the sender, this is what I got when checking out sender Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (sp28fe.nerdc.ufl.edu [128.227.128.108]) by kodos.svc.tds.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09953 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:33:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from cows1.ufl.edu (lwa-246.uflib.ufl.edu [128.227.238.246]) by smtp.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/2.2.1) with SMTP id OAA124208 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:33:52 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001112142609.006877ec> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:26:09 -0500 To: revhelen at tds.net Subject: ritual abuse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 0ddb519ebc9a52022e4bcc338973ddc8 ------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- SOME CHRISTIAN THINGS OF INTEREST WATCH THE CHURCH CHANNEL LIVE TV ON YOUR COMPUTER CLICK ON http://www.churchchannel.org/ OR http://media.churchchannel.org:8080/ramgen/encoder/church.rm You will need RealPlayer to watch. The Church Channel is a multi-denominational religious network that will feature church service programs 24 hours per day, 7 days a week Read and Listen to the Bible at the same time, click on http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html or http://www.talkingbible.com/ For a Bible Word and Phrase Study click on http://www.branchministry.net/wordstudy/index.html PUT GOD FIRST when you start your web browsing. Use a Christian Home Page. click on http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings. Are you saved, there is nothing more important to do in the world then to ask God into your life. Don't burn in Hell because you didn't say a short prayer. Click on http://www.branchministry.net/salvation/ The Bible in different languages Click on http://www.talkingbible.com/multilingual.html If you need a Prayer answered right now, call Rev. Helen at 423-496-1777. Prayer Works From islamguemey at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 03:57:55 2000 From: islamguemey at earthlink.net (Islam M. Guemey) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 06:57:55 -0500 Subject: persuasive speeches References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73F8@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: <003601c05eb2$9b411fe0$03000004@moonshine> RE: persuasive speechesHello, for what it's worth, you may plagiarize from here: IMHO, computer-related issues that involve an ethical dilemma are worthy of discussion among laymen and computer specialists alike. Particularly such discussions among computer-related specialists should be pursued because computer applications are almost ubiquitous in our urban lives (and will continue to pervade our environment, even as part of our clothes, and our very bodies.) So yeah ethics should be important for computer specialists, students and teachers. Another field that has dropped its interest in the ethical questions arising from its practice, ie, the mass media, has reached untold lows in its complete disregard for any responsible behavior towards its end users. We don't want to see this happen in the field of computer science and its applications. At worst, these ethical discussions can't hurt. Now regarding the question of downloads, I've missed the thread, but I wish to express that the intellectual property issue is mostly a hoax, and a falacious concept that serves only to maximize the profits of the entertainment industries. Many aesthetes and philosophers (Popper, Foucault, Barthes, Jung, Althussere &c.) have pointed out that ideas (which translate into popular culture) arise from clichés, archetypes and memes that are shared throughout our culture, and have been circulating and roaming around our collective cultural consciousness for centuries. These ideas are simply the recycled riffs, proverbs, motifs, themes, folk tales and poetry, melodies, hopes and fear, and indeed the entirety of human experience since the beginning of history. Moreover, I also would like to note that once you issue a song or a poem, it is no longer yours. It is released into popular consciousness. The notion of royalties is laughable really. As to the ethics of intellectual property, well it is again my personal opinion that popular artists are overrated, their wages are overrated (especially now that art and culture have been on the decline in quality for over two decades,) and the videos, books, dvds, and cds are overpriced by the entertainment industry. I believe that true artists do wish that their art be shared by all, and for free. A musician's living would be more rightfully earned from live gigs, session work wages, contracts with distributors etc. But this concept of royalties is a cheat at best. Having said all this, I encourage others to use Napster (while it is still free,) and to use Gnutella when Napster caves in to corporate lustre. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carskadden, Rush To: cypherpunks at toad.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 6:44 PM Subject: RE: persuasive speeches How about a business case for relaxing intellectual property regulations? If you could put together a good persuasive speech on that one, I would like to see it. Or you could do a persuasive speech on the economic advantages of more lenient cryptographic export restrictions. Or you could do what I did when I had that project in school (and this is my personal recommendation) - blow off class to go hang out in the gallery of the House, get there and remember it's tourist season and they are rotating people through in five minute intervals, and decide to go downtown and get drunk. I then had to deliver a persuasive speech the next day on why it was more important to skip class and get drunk than to do assignments, which didn't impress anyone and earned me a failure on the assignment. Or you could subscribe to the speech writing mailing list (I'm sure there is one) and ask them. -----Original Message----- From: Lockinator21 at aol.com [mailto:Lockinator21 at aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 4:51 PM To: cypherpunks at toad.com Cc: pitbull32 at excite.com Subject: persuasive speeches I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ecommercenow at mantramail.com Tue Dec 5 07:07:22 2000 From: ecommercenow at mantramail.com (eCommerce Solutions) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:07:22 -0800 Subject: Start Accepting Credit Cards Online Message-ID: <200012051509.HAA23038@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6787 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 05:18:12 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:11:12 -0500 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: CDR: Antigen found W32/Hybris at m virus Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 678 bytes Desc: URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 05:18:29 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:19:43 -0500 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: CDR: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 05:26:08 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:26:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Quantum Dot advance on /. Message-ID: http://slashdot.org ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 05:36:57 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:36:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: There is an article over on Drudge's site. The quote with respect to 5 year retention was supposedly made by the US Justice Dept. Wonder what they were refering too... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 05:32:57 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:32:57 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012051332.IAA05286@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: midgets.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Somebody Tue Dec 5 08:47:20 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:47:20 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: Message-ID: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to reduce the effective security of a system. "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/5/00, BNA Highlights wrote: > > > KEYSTROKE MONITORING AND THE SOPRANOS > > A federal gambling case against the son of a New Jersey mob > > boss may provide the courts with the opportunity to weigh in > > on the privacy issues surrounding keystroke monitoring. The > > FBI's surveillance included the use of such technology to > > reproduce every stroke entered on a computer. The defense > > plans to challenge the FBI's surveillance methods at > > pre-trial defense motion. > > http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 05:50:31 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:50:31 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BF2@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 06:04:03 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:04:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/5/00, BNA Highlights wrote: > KEYSTROKE MONITORING AND THE SOPRANOS > A federal gambling case against the son of a New Jersey mob > boss may provide the courts with the opportunity to weigh in > on the privacy issues surrounding keystroke monitoring. The > FBI's surveillance included the use of such technology to > reproduce every stroke entered on a computer. The defense > plans to challenge the FBI's surveillance methods at > pre-trial defense motion. > http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jya at pipeline.com Tue Dec 5 06:09:01 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:09:01 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> Here's the source for the data preservation requirement: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/COEFAQs.htm Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United States for nearly five years. 18 U.S.C. 2703(f) requires an electronic communications service provider to "take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process" upon "the request of a governmental entity." This applies in practice only to reasonably small amounts of specified data identified as relevant to a particular case where the service provider already has control over that data. Similarly, as with traditional subpoena powers, issuance of an order to an individual or corporation to produce specified data during the course of an investigation carries with it an obligation not to delete or destroy information falling within the scope of that order when that information is in the persons possession or control. ----- >From the US Code via GPO Access: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html 18 USC 2703(f) (f) Requirement To Preserve Evidence.-- (1) In general.--A provider of wire or electronic communication services or a remote computing service, upon the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process. (2) Period of retention.--Records referred to in paragraph (1) shall be retained for a period of 90 days, which shall be extended for an additional 90-day period upon a renewed request by the governmental entity. ----- From CoNurse at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 09:26:27 2000 From: CoNurse at earthlink.net (Company Nurse) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:26:27 -0800 Subject: I Need Your Help :) Message-ID: I am currently doing market research for a client -- Company Nurse(r). They reduce your worker's compensation Insurance cost. I was interested in finding out what advantages you see for your company to use Company Nurse. I have included some basis information for your review. I would really appreciate your input :) patricia at sellingwithtechnology.com or http://www.companynurse.com/index/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Just like having your own nurse on site What the Company Nurse(r) Does!!! * Eliminates 1/3 of workers' compensation claims * Decreases the number of claims incurring disability costs by 2/3 * Decreases emergency room referrals by 80% What the Company Nurse(r) provides: Telephonic triage and first aid advice to injured employee's helps to eliminate 1/3 of potential claims. Referral to appropriate level of medical care decreases emergency room referrals by 80%. Completion of claim forms, and documentation for employers and claims administrators within minutes of the injury. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Again thank you for your Help. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 5 09:37:42 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:37:42 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001205093742.01c1f460@idiom.com> At 01:41 AM 12/5/00 -0800, petro wrote: >Mr. May: >>(And then there's Riad Wahby, whose signed messages are unopenable >>by Eudora Pro. He is doing _something_ which makes my very-common >>mailer choke on his messages. Not my problem, as his messages then >>get deleted by me unread. Again, standard ASCII is the lingua franca >>which avoids this problem.) > > He's apparently using GPG, and he has been told about this. > He doesn't seem to care. You're incorrect. The problem isn't GPG, it's the Mutt mailer. Riad's using 1.2.5i, which almost did the right thing, and he went to the trouble of hacking the program to fix it. So now his messages are plaintext GPG or PGP in the message body, which is what they should be. I'm not sure if hacking was necessary - it looks like RGB on the linux-ipsec mailing list is getting the same effect, (though perhaps he also hacked the source.) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From newsletter at easywinning.com Tue Dec 5 05:38:31 2000 From: newsletter at easywinning.com (newsletter at easywinning.com) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:38:31 -0400 Subject: THE OFFICIAL EASYWINNING.COM WEEKLY NEWSLETTER - DECEMBER 4, 2000 Message-ID: <200012051337.FAA21465@toad.com> The Official EasyWinning.com Weekly Newsletter! THIS IS A MAJOR NEWSFLASH!!!!!!!! We just recently re-vamped our homepage. Come and check out what's new, hot and exciting!!! http://www.easywinning.com/eTags.asp?linkid=388&NID=2881405 Sponsor site of the week -Half.com! Redeem your $5 Coupon! Here's a great shopping site for the holidays. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 5 09:38:47 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:38:47 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:41 AM -0800 12/5/00, petro wrote: >Mr. May: > >> >>(And then there's Riad Wahby, whose signed messages are unopenable >>by Eudora Pro. He is doing _something_ which makes my very-common >>mailer choke on his messages. Not my problem, as his messages then >>get deleted by me unread. Again, standard ASCII is the lingua >>franca which avoids this problem.) > > He's apparently using GPG, and he has been told about this. > > He doesn't seem to care. I disagree. Riad has actually been a major participant in this discussion. He even fixed the recent problem with his body text being an attachment instead of inline. That's the MIME/mutt issue, at least. As to GPG vs. PGP, I wouldn't know about this, as I never try to check signatures. Aren't they inoperable anyway? --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 06:38:54 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:38:54 -0500 Subject: New anti-gun legislation in Congress Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001205093830.021635f0@mail.well.com> today: News conference to announce that the proposed Gun Show Accountability Act will be introduced in the next Congress. Participants: Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., and Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I.= Location: SC-6 U.S. Capitol. 11:30 a.m. Contact: Greg McCarthy, 202-224-3326, or Alex Formuzis, 202-224-4744 From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 07:09:25 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:09:25 -0500 Subject: ip: Chaos Theory Message-ID: A nice rant, below, from a fellow anarcho-capitalist lapsed conservative apparently Hillsdale College grad. [I swear, folks, I *tried* snipping this to relevant bits. :-). I mean, there's a URL in it and all, and, admittedly, he's preaching to the choir around here, but this is nicely done that I couldn't bring myself to premasticate it for cypherpunk consumption.] Cheers, RAH --- begin forwarded text From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 07:18:56 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:18:56 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 12:16:11AM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001205104254.A17455@cluebot.com> Nah. Barry has been at the ACLU for 30 yrs. He's lived through the Republican NWO of Reagan and Bush. When Clinton took over, the ACLU was giddy, thinking they had a friend in the White House. Whoops. -Declan On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 12:16:11AM -0500, Tim May wrote: > This is old news to followers of the New World Order, the Blue > Helmets, and the Zionist Occupation Government. > > Barry S. is reacting quickly to the changing ground truth of the > election: the civil liberties groups used to avoid such implications > of the NWO, but now that Republicans are about to take over, the ACLU > will likely soon be talking about black helicopters and re-education > camps being built to house the political prisoners. > > I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 07:26:28 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:26:28 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! In-Reply-To: <200012050959.EAA16077@domains.invweb.net>; from hahaha@sexyfun.net on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:59:36AM -0500 References: <200012050959.EAA16077@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <20001205105042.B17455@cluebot.com> This is a nasty little worm. Background: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01542.html On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:59:36AM -0500, Hahaha wrote: > Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and > polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a > *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven > Dwarfs enter... > From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Dec 5 07:33:29 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:33:29 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A2D0A6A.85AA5FB0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> David Honig wrote: > This just about sums it up: > > Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil > Liberties Union, said the pact could force police in the > United States to conduct searches under rules established > by treaty ''that don't respect the limits of police powers > imposed by the U.S. Constitution.'' And guess what? The UK government says they need to do this because the US (among others) wants them to. Over the weekend proposals to enforce data retention for 7 years were leaked to newspapers & civil liberties groups here in Britain. Just in time for the annual Big Brother Awards ( http://www.privacyinternational.org/bigbrother/ :-) Your very own John Young has made the offending document available at http://cryptome.org/ncis-carnivore.htm Of course it isn't official government policy. Oh no, just some paper put out by a junior official. All very deniable. It is so *very* offensive that even the Home Secretary will be able to to say that he doesn't accept it - and then come out with something that, while not quite that bad is still a lot worse than what we have now. And they will say that our "European partners" want us to have such laws. And in Germany they will say that the British want it... and in France they will say that all of civilisation wants it...so a whole load of diplomats will get together & make some treaty, more or less dictated to them by the military. of course the universal opinion here is that it is actually the Americans - they pull the strings at GCHQ & this sort of policy in the UK nearly always comes straight out of GCHQ. Meanwhile, back in the corridors of power, the Data Protection law (which tends to be administered by well-meaning mild lefties, as opposed to the military who may be well-meaning but are almost by definition right-wing authoritarians) now seems to require that you make personal data, including logs, available to people who can be identified from them. How about having to not only keep your Apache logs for 7 years but also be prepared to search them at the request of anyone who might have browsed your website? Ken The vile paper states: 3.2 INTERNATIONAL DIMENSION 3.2.1. We have strong partnerships with overseas colleagues and an expectation exists that the UK will take a bold and strategic position on data retention in order to continue to meet both domestic and international obligations on organised crime. Elsewhere in Europe and in the G8, countries are also concerned about the lack of clarity in law and are advancing legislation to meet the needs of their Agencies. In particular, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Germany and the US have taken steps towards a statutory framework. 3.2.2. A degree of international agreement on standards is important. For example, in relation to telephone data, competition in the market has led to "least cost routing". This involves calls being sent by the cheapest route, taking advantage of reduced off-peak rates elsewhere in the world. It has even become more economical to briefly route domestic UK calls overseas. Similarly, in the case of computer viruses, these can be transmitted around the world across any number of communications networks and ISP servers. Progress towards standardisation is therefore important both for domestic and international law enforcement activity. 3.2.3 CSPs consider it is important to harmonise UK legislation with regulatory regimes elsewhere. If requirements are more onerous in the UK than in other EU Member States, then the natural reaction will be to relocate to the most favourable regime. The nascent E-Commerce knowledge industries are highly mobile and the Industry would anticipate an immediate response from UK CSPs to unfavourable conditions here. CSPs are actively consulting their international counterparts on this subject. ISPs in particular would support adopting an international legislative framework provided it was on the basis of a level playing field and would actively work on the formulation of an "Industry-wide Code of Practice" to achieve that objective. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Dec 5 07:35:10 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:35:10 -0500 Subject: STAINLESS STEEL PIPES AND TUBES FOR REFINERIE INDUSTRIES In-Reply-To: <013001c05eb0$f77d1a40$0200a8c0@suraj3> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001205072948.007ee790@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:39 AM 12/5/00 -0500, Ashok Shah wrote: > REFINERIE INDUSTRIES Manager- Procurement / Purchase / Buyers >Department Dear Sir, > > leading Producers / Manufacturers / Exporters of STAINLESS STEEL PIPE / >TUBE SEAMLESS / WELDED,having our works near Ahmedabad-in INDIA. We need pipes that are resistant to uranium hexafluoride. Lots and lots of pipes. Are yours? Also can you machine beryllium? From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 11:18:53 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:18:53 -0800 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net>; from mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:40:08PM -0000 References: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:40:08PM -0000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: > Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of MTB, > whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify himself to the > bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of business, etc. This is > SOP for other payment systems like credit cards. > > It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their merchants. > No payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable cash system would > have been equally amenable to merchant screening. Any vendor has the > right to control whom it does business with, and MTB chose to exercise > its discretion in this way. I don't know if MTB had a lot of discretion - banks are subject to the federal "know your customer" regulations. You can't get depositor anonymity from a bank chartered in the US, at least not without at least one level of corporate indirection (e.g., the bank "knows its customer" who is a domestic or foreign closely-held corp, who does the bidding of its unidentified-to-the-bank-and-FINCEN shareholders). > The Texas couple in the news recently made a different choice and > decided to provide payment services for child pornographers, as James > Donald recommends. Now MTB is still in business (after merging with > MTL and then FSR) and the Texans are in jail. Which made a better choice? Sounds like the Texans knew too much about their customers - if they operated a content-neutral service which had many, many customers, one of whom happened to be a child-porn service, they'd be doing fine, especially if they shut off the child porn people if/when notified by law enforcement of the activity. Does the FBI shut down AOL and Earthlink when their subscribers traffic in child porn? -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:25:20 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:25:20 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050323.TAA09644@cyberpass.net> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:25:23 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:25:23 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050326.VAA08892@einstein.ssz.com> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:25:32 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:25:32 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050321.TAA10974@toad.com> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:25:36 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:25:36 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050321.WAA04172@waste.minder.net> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:26:00 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:26:00 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050322.WAA08932@mail.virtual-estates.net> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From honig at sprynet.com Tue Dec 5 08:30:17 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:30:17 -0500 Subject: the difficulties with thought control Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001205082904.007db550@pop.sprynet.com> BERLIN (Reuters) - Organizers of a Web site launched on Tuesday aimed at offering tips on how to combat racist and neo-Nazi violence in Germany said it had attracted hundreds of visitors within hours of going live. ... The site, www.verfassungsschutzgegenrechtsextremismus.de, was launched following huge public demand for information on Germany's far-right problem and how to combat it, Hesse said. 1. Gotta love those german urls... 2. This url contains the substring "sex" and I bet some censored folks won't be able to get to it... in addition the site contains 'hate words' if the url slipped through.. From myplay.x5fho0c.0 at members.myplay.com Tue Dec 5 12:13:47 2000 From: myplay.x5fho0c.0 at members.myplay.com (myplay) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 12:13:47 PST Subject: Welcome to myplay! Message-ID: <200012052013.MAA13705@c1m1.postdirect.com> Welcome to myplay, Joe! Now that you've opened a free myplay Locker, you can listen to your music anytime, anywhere. Your Locker lets you store, organize, share, and play your digital music collection anywhere you connect to the web -- it's easy, it's powerful, and it's free. So start now and make the most of all that myplay has to offer. ==PLAYERS=================================================== Get a player, if you don't have one yet. It's easy to do, and there are many different free players available online. 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Doug Camplejohn & David Pakman myplay co-founders == FREE MUSIC FROM MYPLAY=============================== Copy these tracks to your Locker and listen as long as you like. 1.Jimmy Page & The Black Crowes, "Oh Well" Live at the Greek! Rock 'n' roll doesn't get any more exciting than this. http://p01.com/t.d?tkIg7oiV=myplay/mp/locker/addTrack.jsp_0tid=162708&tid=162711 2.Confrontation Camp, "Brake the Law" Objects in the Mirror are Closer than They Appear A powerful blend of metal and rap that'll make you think. http://p01.com/t.d?9kIg7oiV=myplay/mp/locker/addTrack.jsp_0tid=2988714&tid=2989434 3.311, "Large in the Margin" Soundsystem Rap and rock fusion straight out of Omaha. http://p01.com/t.d?7EIg7oiV=myplay/mp/locker/addTrack.jsp_0tid=3012852&tid=3012732 ----------------------------------------------------- You've received this message because you're registered with myplay. If you'd rather not receive our e-mails, click on the link below, or copy and paste it into your browser: http://p01.com/t.d?_kIg7oiV=myplay/mp/settings/ext/unsubscribe.jsp_0xemail=cypherpunks at ssz.com&xuvk=4331769&xuvm=10 If you have received this message in error and did not sign up for a myplay Locker, please send an e-mail to customercare at myplay.com and we'll take care of it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 23568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Tue Dec 5 10:25:11 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:25:11 -0600 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C740B@cobra.netsolve.net> Thanks for the cite, I was just about to stir it up. Anyone still want to see an example order? ok, Rush -----Original Message----- From: John Young [mailto:jya at pipeline.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:09 AM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: About 5yr. log retention Here's the source for the data preservation requirement: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/COEFAQs.htm Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United States for nearly five years. 18 U.S.C. 2703(f) requires an electronic communications service provider to "take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process" upon "the request of a governmental entity." This applies in practice only to reasonably small amounts of specified data identified as relevant to a particular case where the service provider already has control over that data. Similarly, as with traditional subpoena powers, issuance of an order to an individual or corporation to produce specified data during the course of an investigation carries with it an obligation not to delete or destroy information falling within the scope of that order when that information is in the person's possession or control. ----- >From the US Code via GPO Access: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html 18 USC 2703(f) (f) Requirement To Preserve Evidence.-- (1) In general.--A provider of wire or electronic communication services or a remote computing service, upon the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process. (2) Period of retention.--Records referred to in paragraph (1) shall be retained for a period of 90 days, which shall be extended for an additional 90-day period upon a renewed request by the governmental entity. ----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3569 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Dec 5 09:36:57 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:36:57 -0500 Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help References: <645.509661.638061@Dell> Message-ID: <3A2D283E.BD82D912@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Too cool! This guy even got himself an account at toad.com? Some of this spam is getting really interesting, like the wolf guy. Makes me feel sane -- sort of. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From islamguemey at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 10:26:53 2000 From: islamguemey at earthlink.net (Islam M. Guemey) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:26:53 -0500 Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help References: <645.509661.638061@Dell> Message-ID: <002101c05ee8$f2266500$03000004@moonshine> Sounds like Stephen King's 'The Plant" All right. Question: What has this got to do with a hacking mailing list? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:29 AM Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help > Ritual Satanic Ritual Abuse in Denver Need Help > > HI and Prrraise the Lord: > > My wife Rev. Helen ( revhelen at tds.net ) got the following e mail > message. I didn't know what to do with it. Maybe you know > someone that can check this out or pass it on to someone in the > Denver area. I sent it to Marilyn Hickey's ministry as she is in > Denver. > > Thanks Rev. Paul at The SPRIG > http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings/ > 423-496-1114 or 423-496-1777 Turtletown Tennesee > > Subject: ritual abuse > > > I am a victim of satanic torture and mind control requesting > prayer on one > > of the locations where I was abused and used for pornagraphy. It > is > > Denver's Domestic Violence Shelter @940 E 17th Ave. Very > influential > > citizens are involved they used their planes to fly us out of > Denver to be > > exploited for vile sex. This shelter is still operating in the > old > mortuary > > building. > > > > Praise God I was delivered! Other victims need help. > > > I couldn't find the sender, this is what I got when checking out > sender > > Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (sp28fe.nerdc.ufl.edu > [128.227.128.108]) > by kodos.svc.tds.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09953 > for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:33:54 -0600 (CST) > Received: from cows1.ufl.edu (lwa-246.uflib.ufl.edu > [128.227.238.246]) > by smtp.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/2.2.1) with SMTP id OAA124208 > for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:33:52 -0500 > Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001112142609.006877ec> > X-Sender: (Unverified) > X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) > Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:26:09 -0500 > To: revhelen at tds.net > Subject: ritual abuse > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > X-UIDL: 0ddb519ebc9a52022e4bcc338973ddc8 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------- > > > SOME CHRISTIAN THINGS OF INTEREST > > WATCH THE CHURCH CHANNEL LIVE TV ON YOUR COMPUTER CLICK ON > > http://www.churchchannel.org/ OR > http://media.churchchannel.org:8080/ramgen/encoder/church.rm > > You will need RealPlayer to watch. The Church Channel is a > multi-denominational religious network that will feature church > service programs 24 hours per day, 7 days a week > > Read and Listen to the Bible at the same time, click on > http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html or > http://www.talkingbible.com/ > > For a Bible Word and Phrase Study click on > http://www.branchministry.net/wordstudy/index.html > > PUT GOD FIRST when you start your web browsing. Use a Christian > Home Page. click on http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings. > > Are you saved, there is nothing more important to do in the world > then to ask God into your life. Don't burn in Hell because you > didn't say a short prayer. Click on > http://www.branchministry.net/salvation/ > > The Bible in different languages Click on > http://www.talkingbible.com/multilingual.html > > If you need a Prayer answered right now, call Rev. Helen at > 423-496-1777. Prayer Works > > > > > > > > > > > > From Jon at techtrendsonline.com Tue Dec 5 11:31:49 2000 From: Jon at techtrendsonline.com (Jon at techtrendsonline.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 13:31:49 -0600 Subject: Create a Web site in less than 5 minutes!!! Starting at $9.99 month Message-ID: <36865.563768622683700.16806836@localhost> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 13:55:24 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:55:24 -0800 Subject: Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case In-Reply-To: <200012052128.QAA16875@sigma.nrk.com>; from wb8foz@nrk.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:12:37PM -0500 References: <200012052128.QAA16875@sigma.nrk.com> Message-ID: <20001205135524.G3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:12:37PM -0500, David Lesher wrote: > > re: the keystroke sniffer: > > http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm > > The FBI application is at: > http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/application.pdf > > The court order is at: > http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/order.pdf I poked around the EPIC site to see if I could find more about that case - didn't find anything, but I did run across a reference to a 9th Circuit opinion of some interest - it seems that some drug cops in Las Vegas were engaging in illegal wiretaps, by modifying pen register hardware so that it facilitated audiotaping without a warrant. One of the cops mentioned this to a colleague, who talked to a supervsor, who broke into one of the other cops' office, found equipment which appeared to be performing an illegal warrantless audio intercept - so he then installed some illegal warrantless video recording equipment, which recorded the first crooked cops' behavior. The video evidence was excluded by the 9th Circuit as having been recorded outside the boundaries of Title III and the Fourth Amendment. It's online at if you care to meditate a little on the old "quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" question; or at 923 F.2d 665 for the old-fashioned. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From smb at research.att.com Tue Dec 5 11:37:44 2000 From: smb at research.att.com (Steven M. Bellovin) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:37:44 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) Message-ID: <20001205193744.3347E35DC2@smb.research.att.com> In message , "R. A. Hettinga" writes: >At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/5/00, BNA Highlights wrote: > > >> KEYSTROKE MONITORING AND THE SOPRANOS >> A federal gambling case against the son of a New Jersey mob >> boss may provide the courts with the opportunity to weigh in >> on the privacy issues surrounding keystroke monitoring. The >> FBI's surveillance included the use of such technology to >> reproduce every stroke entered on a computer. The defense >> plans to challenge the FBI's surveillance methods at >> pre-trial defense motion. >> http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm Very interesting, but what does IBM have to do with the case? Did you mean to type "FBI"? --Steve Bellovin From socio at getyourcasino.com Tue Dec 5 12:39:56 2000 From: socio at getyourcasino.com (socio at getyourcasino.com) Date: 5 Dec 2000 15:39:56 -0500 Subject: Propuesta para alianza estratgica Message-ID: Hola! Recientemente visit� su sitio en Internet, y creo, que tal vez Ud. se encuentre interesado en formar una alianza estrat�gica. Nuestra compa��a es due�a y opera varios casinos en linea, con todas las licencias. Tenemos m�s de 30,000 clientes y 8,500 sitios asociados. La industria de juegos en linea es la m�s explosiva en la red, con cerca de $10 billones proyectados para el ano 2002. 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Ericka Rivera Directora-Latinoam�rica From hhwilliams at juno.com Tue Dec 5 11:56:28 2000 From: hhwilliams at juno.com (hhwilliams at juno.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:56:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: loan guys (120420) Message-ID: < 276284@ 696639> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1598 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wb8foz at nrk.com Tue Dec 5 13:12:37 2000 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:12:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case Message-ID: <200012052128.QAA16875@sigma.nrk.com> re: the keystroke sniffer: http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm The FBI application is at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/application.pdf The court order is at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/order.pdf -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From wb8foz at nrk.com Tue Dec 5 13:12:37 2000 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:12:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case Message-ID: <200012052112.QAA16774@sigma.nrk.com> re: the keystroke sniffer: http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm The FBI application is at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/application.pdf The court order is at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/order.pdf -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From forgot at lga2.nytimes.com Tue Dec 5 13:50:48 2000 From: forgot at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:50:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: NYT Account Request Message-ID: <200012052150.QAA13472@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com> You have requested your ID and password for The New York Times on the Web. Please follow the instructions below. If you have any questions or problems, write to forgot at nytimes.com. Please DO NOT REPLY to this message. 1. Please make a note of your subscriber ID: cypherpunks2112 2. Next, to change the password for this account, using your Web browser go to this unique URL: http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=81577694_17290015 This page will allow you to choose a new password. Make sure you have copied the address EXACTLY as it appears here. (If you're getting an "Error" page, the address was probably entered incorrectly. See "Help With Copying and Pasting" at the bottom of this e-mail.) 3. Follow the instructions on the screen to choose a new password. After you have entered a password you will automatically enter our Web site. The New York Times on the Web Customer Service forgot at nytimes.com ******************** Help With Copying and Pasting 1. Using the mouse, highlight the entire Web address, (e.g. http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=81577694_17290015) shown above in step 2. It's essential to highlight the entire address, even if it extends over two lines. 2. Under the Edit menu at the top of your screen, select "Copy". 3. Go into your Web browser (open it if it's not already opened). 4. Click in the "Netsite" or "Address" bar -- the place in your Web browser where it says what Web address you're currently looking at -- and delete the address that's currently there. 5. In the blank "Netsite" or "Address" bar, paste the address by selecting the "Edit" menu at the top of your screen and choosing "Paste". 6. Press Enter. 7. Follow the instructions to choose a new password. ******************** If you did not request your ID and password for your NYT Web registration, someone has mistakenly entered your e-mail address when requesting their password. Please simply ignore this message, or, if you wish, you may go to the address above to select a new password for your account. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 13:52:22 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:52:22 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From rah at ibuc.com Tue Dec 5 14:01:43 2000 From: rah at ibuc.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:01:43 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:58 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, Somebody wrote: > So what does this have to do with IBM? Oops. Somehow I conflated IBM with FBI? It was merely a typo. Really it was. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... Of course, (if) it turns out that IBM actually *built* a keyboard sniffer, but, that's no surprise, I expect anyone with a code.clue and a paranoid bone in their body knows how... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 14:15:40 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:15:40 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: <20001205193744.3347E35DC2@smb.research.att.com> References: <20001205193744.3347E35DC2@smb.research.att.com> Message-ID: At 2:37 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: > Very interesting, but what does IBM have to do with the case? Did you > mean to type "FBI"? Absolutely. God knows why I did it... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 5 17:16:03 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:16:03 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (dcsb and cryptography and other closed lists removed, for obvious reasons) At 4:52 PM -0500 12/5/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > >Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:47:20 -0800 >From: Somebody >To: "R. A. Hettinga" >Subject: Re: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: >BNA'sInternet > Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) > >An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. > >The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the >information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a >side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer >equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to >reduce the effective security of a system. I fully support this comment that the whole issue of "legality" is a "side show." We've known that keyboard sniffers were a major issue for many years. I remember describing the sniffers ("keystroke recorders") which were widely available for Macs in the early 90s. Others cited such recorders for Windows and Unices. We discussed at early CP meetings the issue, with various proposed solutions. (For example, pass phrases stored in rings, pendants, Newtons, Pilots. For example, zero knowledge approaches. For example, reliance on laptops always in physical possession.) Frankly, the PGP community veered off the track toward crapola about standards, escrow, etc., instead of concentrating on the core issues. PGP as text is a solved problem. The rest of the story is to ensure that pass phrases and keys are not black-bagged. Forget fancy GUIs, forget standards...concentrate on the real threat model. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) 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It has nothing to do with a court issuance. There has never been a question in that regard. As I said in a earlier note, destruction of evidence is a crime which is well covered. As soon as you have any reason to believe it's evidence (actually whether a cop or other agent advises you of such or not) it becomes illegal for you to alter or destroy it. Tampering with evidence is a crime and always has been. But back to the point, It's called CALEA. It's one of the requirement when one becomes a 'commen carrier'. It's also worth noting that it applies to network providers who provide 'significant' telephone services through their network (can you say PBX? I thought so). I'd send the actual page but Timmy might have a CVA. There's a reference to the CALEA standard at the bottem of the last URL I sent out. So, what we actually have is the DoJ participating in a strawman, basically saying that since they can require 'commen carriers' to keep logs then extending that to everyone isn't that big of a deal. It actually is. On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > Here's the source for the data preservation requirement: > > > http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/COEFAQs.htm > > Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in > the United States for nearly five years. 18 U.S.C. 2703(f) > requires an electronic communications service provider to > "take all necessary steps to preserve records and other > evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court > order or other process" upon "the request of a governmental > entity." This applies in practice only to reasonably small > amounts of specified data identified as relevant to a > particular case where the service provider already has > control over that data. Similarly, as with traditional > subpoena powers, issuance of an order to an individual or > corporation to produce specified data during the course of > an investigation carries with it an obligation not to delete > or destroy information falling within the scope of that > order when that information is in the person�s possession or > control. > > ----- > > >From the US Code via GPO Access: > > > http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html > > 18 USC 2703(f) > > (f) Requirement To Preserve Evidence.-- > (1) In general.--A provider of wire or electronic > communication services or a remote computing service, upon > the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary > steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession > pending the issuance of a court order or other process. > (2) Period of retention.--Records referred to in paragraph > (1) shall be retained for a period of 90 days, which shall be > extended for an additional 90-day period upon a renewed request > by the governmental entity. > > ----- > ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 15:49:47 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:49:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C740B@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > Thanks for the cite, I was just about to stir it up. Anyone still want to > see an example order? Except it isn't the correct one. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Dec 5 18:06:41 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:06:41 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: <3A2D9F31.1AA0E9DD@lsil.com> Jim Choate wrote : >On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > >> But that is trivial compared to your claim that you decide what is evidence >> and that it then becomes illegal to alter or destroy it. That appears to be >> playing cop without the authority. > >No John, that is not my claim. You wish it were I bet. You need to adjust >your meds again. > >The destruction of property or materials which are evidence of a crime is >itself a crime if done intentionally to cover up that crime. > To prove destruction of evidence you must prove that it existed in a form that was retrievable ( good luck ) and then that its destruction was done by a person who was aware of the crime ( not always so in the networking world ) for the purpose of concealing the crime( burden of proof on you ). I clean disk space randomly and not according to any schedule. Erase away, but not on the evil MS platform. Mike The whole idea that a government can assert some sort of eminent domain over all communications is offensive beyond words. From allyn at well.com Tue Dec 5 18:16:04 2000 From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:16:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: Use PGP. If you want to blab without being traced, go to the local public library or netcafe. Some airports now have netcafe's that accept cash without ID. As a sysadmin, I often have to troubleshoot mail. That exposes me to email. I try only to look at headers and ignore bodies, but I am still exposed. I would much prefer to see PGP bodies. Mark From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 16:28:39 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:28:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > The citation was given as the basis of the news story. And it shows that > there is no five year retention requirement, only that the law is five years > old. What law? Actually if you go look at the bottem of that news piece you'll find a direct reference to CALEA (which I might add says nothing about log retention for 'commen carrier' or otherwise). I'd still like somebody to explain what law was in reference with respect to requiring log retention for any period, irrespective of how old the law is. Note, this has NOTHING to do with a court order or request from a LEA and at no point in that article was that claimed. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 16:31:52 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:31:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > But that is trivial compared to your claim that you decide what is evidence > and that it then becomes illegal to alter or destroy it. That appears to be > playing cop without the authority. No John, that is not my claim. You wish it were I bet. You need to adjust your meds again. The destruction of property or materials which are evidence of a crime is itself a crime if done intentionally to cover up that crime. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 18:33:04 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:33:04 -0800 Subject: Destruction of evidence In-Reply-To: <3A2D9F31.1AA0E9DD@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:06:41PM -0800 References: <3A2D9F31.1AA0E9DD@lsil.com> Message-ID: <20001205183303.C6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:06:41PM -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > To prove destruction of evidence you must prove that it existed in a > form that was retrievable ( good luck ) and then that its destruction > was done by a person who was aware of the crime ( not always so in the > networking world ) for the purpose of concealing the crime( burden of > proof on you ). I clean disk space randomly and not according to any > schedule. > Readers interested in this somewhat nuanced topic might find the text "Destruction of Evidence" by Jamie Gorelick (yes, THAT Jamie Gorelick) of interest; it's out of print but still findable through used book sources; publisher is Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0471611387. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Tue Dec 5 15:34:13 2000 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:34:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Important Membership Information Message-ID: <200012052334.SAA01228@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com> Dear twatsrus0, Welcome to NYTimes.com! We are delighted that you have decided to become a member of our community. As a member you now have complete access to the Web's premier source for news and information -- free of charge. 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Share your thoughts about the site with us by sending an e-mail to feedback at nytimes.com ************************************************************* Your account information is listed below for future reference: Your Member ID is twatsrus0 You selected your password at registration. Your e-mail address is cypherpunks at toad.com If you did not authorize this registration, someone has mistakenly registered using your e-mail address. We regret the inconvenience; please see http://www.nytimes.com/subscribe/help/cancel.html for instructions. From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 5 10:40:08 2000 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: 5 Dec 2000 18:40:08 -0000 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) Message-ID: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> Adam Back wrote: > I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application was > MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related to > pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for > providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. James Donald replied: > Payee traceability made it possible to close accounts related to > pornography. Ecash is not truly cash like if the issuer can prevent it > from being used by tax evaders, child pornographers, money launderers and > terrorists. Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of MTB, whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify himself to the bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of business, etc. This is SOP for other payment systems like credit cards. It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their merchants. No payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable cash system would have been equally amenable to merchant screening. Any vendor has the right to control whom it does business with, and MTB chose to exercise its discretion in this way. The Texas couple in the news recently made a different choice and decided to provide payment services for child pornographers, as James Donald recommends. Now MTB is still in business (after merging with MTL and then FSR) and the Texans are in jail. Which made a better choice? From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 5 10:40:11 2000 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: 5 Dec 2000 18:40:11 -0000 Subject: manual crypto Message-ID: <20001205184011.10931.qmail@nym.alias.net> There's no particular need to make it a single-image random dot stereogram. Double images are much easier to make and provide an extra bonus (see below). Here is an example from a post to cypherpunks on September 23, 1997: VGhpcyBpcyBhIHRlc3Qg VGhpcyBpcyBhIHRlc3Qg bWVzc2FnZSB3aGljaCBp bWVc2AFnZB3xaGljaCBp cyBiZWluZyBzZW50IHZp cyBZWmluZBzvZW50IHZp YSBzdGVnYW5vZ3JhcGh5 YSBdGVnYW5v9Z3JhcGh5 LgpIYWQgdGhpcyBiZWVu LgpYW1QgdhpBcyBiZWVu IGFuIGFjdHVhbCBtZXNz IGFIGoFjdVhXbCBtZXNz YWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBo YWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBo YXZlIGJlZW4gZW5jcnlw YXZIGJlZW4vgZW5jcnlw dGVkCnVzaW5nIGEgbWV0 dGVkCVzaUW5nIGEgbWV0 aG9kIHdoaWNoIHByb2R1 aG9kIdoa4WNoIHByb2R1 Y2VzIG91dHB1dCB3aGlj Y2VzI91dAHB1dCB3aGlj aCBpcyBpbmRpc3Rpbmd1 aCBcyBpbmRnpc3Rpbmd1 aXNoYWJsZQpmcm9tIHJh aXNoYWJsZQpmcm9tIHJh bmRvbSBieXRlcy4K bmRvbSBieXRlcy4K Using a monospace font, let your eyes separate so the text blocks merge and you will see the word HI displayed. To make this all you need is a random character generator to make the left block, and copy it to the right block. Then take the "pixels" where you want letters to appear and shift them one character to the left in the right-hand block. Use the random character generator to fill in the blanks which this shift causes. That's it. The hardest part would be finding a simple block font you can use for the letters. Now, here's the bonus. This is a perfect cover for sending large amounts of random data. Put your favorite political or sports message in the stereogram (GO BUSH) and use the random data for steganography. In the example above the left block is a base 64 encoding of a simple message. Unix users can pass the stereogram through "sed 's/ .*//' | mimencode -u". For a real stego message you'd use encrypted data without any headers so it looked purely random. There would be no way to distinguish it from any other source of randomly generated characters. This could even catch on as a legal "thumb your nose at the spooks" fad, people adding random sterograms at the end of their messages. You could even have an active .sig which had a constant message but used different random characters each time. There typically wouldn't be any hidden messages, but there would be no way to be sure. From jill at 8th-ellsworth.com Tue Dec 5 18:58:11 2000 From: jill at 8th-ellsworth.com (Jill Flomenhoft) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:58:11 -0800 Subject: damsel in distress Message-ID: Help! Can anyone refer me to a copy of the film "Cryptic Seduction" (1998)? I can't find it anywhere... Many thanks, Jill From jya at pipeline.com Tue Dec 5 16:05:37 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 19:05:37 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Jim Choate wrote: > >Actually your cite is the wrong one. It has nothing to do with a court >issuance. There has never been a question in that regard. As I said in a >earlier note, destruction of evidence is a crime which is well covered. As >soon as you have any reason to believe it's evidence (actually whether a >cop or other agent advises you of such or not) it becomes illegal for you >to alter or destroy it. Tampering with evidence is a crime and always has >been. The citation was given as the basis of the news story. And it shows that there is no five year retention requirement, only that the law is five years old. But that is trivial compared to your claim that you decide what is evidence and that it then becomes illegal to alter or destroy it. That appears to be playing cop without the authority. Now, you've made no bones about doing that in the past, apparently to protect your own ass and your fragile operation. Maybe you are under threat to out cop the cops. Certainly, fruadulent operations have to worry about being exposed. And, no doubt there are many sys admins and operators worldwide who believe that it is their perogative to finger their customers to the fuzz -- as with the big ISPs around the world madly trying to please the authorities so their businesses will get favorable treatment, or at least not become a target for investigation. A local comic might say all such people need killing. The lilly-livered sys admins who betray people's trust in their systems are a plague on the Internet, all braying about the need to secure their systems from bad users, and all of them -- along with their bosses and investors who are rushing to kiss the authorities asses even when the authorities know what the cheaters fear -- need to be exposed and pilloried. You, Jim, have repeatedly confessed to being a law and order rat fink. But I understand, son, that's just good business for a crooked cop. From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Tue Dec 5 16:22:30 2000 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:22:30 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:05:37PM -0500 References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:05:37PM -0500, John Young wrote: > The lilly-livered sys admins who betray people's trust in their systems > are a plague on the Internet, all braying about the need to secure their > systems from bad users, and all of them -- along with their bosses > and investors who are rushing to kiss the authorities asses even when > the authorities know what the cheaters fear -- need to be exposed and > pilloried. Good comments, John. My 2 cents is that sysadmins' conservative organizations often force (or try to force) lilly-livered behavior. I've personal and 2nd hand stories about the legal counsel or upper management having a policy of blind cooperation with any law enforcement, sans warrant, for any request. Sometimes the sysadmin might choose to buck authority, but s/he does so at peril of losing cooperation or support from the higher-ups. So, regardless of whether the sysadmins are really lilly-livered, they might need to behave that way due to management or legal counsel who favors saving various legal expenses or hassles over taking the moral high road. Bottom line, as usual, is to trust no-one, including ISPs or sysadmins that have a strong privacy ethic. -- Greg From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 5 19:23:34 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 19:23:34 -0800 Subject: User Trolling for Passwords Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001205192334.01c1f6b0@idiom.com> Dear Bush / Telinco - your user, , sent the following email to the Cypherpunks mailing list. We often get script kiddies trolling for passwords, contraband, bomb-making materials, and the like. It's a difficult decision whether to harass them in return, or ask their internet providers to send them some Netiquette material. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any in the help files on your site - it was mostly about how to get interactive TV schedules. Phil - If you want passwords, ask your mother for one. If you want Richard Stallman's ITS password, it's carriage return, and by the time you get ITS up and running again, you'll have learned something. Grammar's a good thing to learn also. >Return-Path: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [216.34.245.2]) > by wormwood.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP > id 88EFE725B5; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:03:43 -0500 (EST) >Received: (from majordom at localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20246 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:57:30 -0800 (PST) >Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20213 for cypherpunks at infonex.com; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:57:12 -0800 (PST) >Received: from cyberpass.net (cyberpass.net [216.34.245.3]) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20202 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:57:05 -0800 (PST) >Received: from bushtv-1.mail.telinco.net (bushtv-1.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.182]) by cyberpass.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03486 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:59:31 -0800 (PST) >Received: from [192.168.8.186] (helo=bushtv-java-1-internal.server.telinco.net) > by bushtv-1.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #7) > id 143P91-0007Kn-00 > for cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:56:59 +0000 >Message-ID: <89854119.976049819687.JavaMail.root at bushtv-java-1-internal.server.telinco.n et> >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:56:58 +0000 (GMT) >From: PHILlIP CHRISTIAN >To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >Precedence: first-class >Reply-To: PHILlIP CHRISTIAN >X-List: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >X-UIDL: ac925881ae786caacca3116fc22f5066 > >please send me password > > > > From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 16:35:43 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:35:43 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012060034.TAA09445@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dwarf4you.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 16:49:16 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:49:16 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C00@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 677 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 19:52:01 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:52:01 -0800 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 10:30:01PM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20001205195200.E6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 10:30:01PM -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 12:16 AM 12/5/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > > >I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? > > For more recent events, even though there isn't much of a Left left, > you could either believe the FBI saying Judi Bari blew up > herself and her friend with a pipe bomb a few years back, > or believe everybody else who think the cops did it. > (The friend was killed; Judy was injured, and she recently > died of cancer.) The friend was Daryl Cherney, and he's not dead, and is still making trouble ^H^H^H singing folk songs up near Humboldt, I think. He was mentioned recently in the Contra Costa Times for helping to coordinate a womens' topless protest against clearcuts in coastal northern CA. My guess is that the left's Tim McVeigh (or David Koresh, or Randy Weaver, for variants on that story) will come out of the animal liberation groups - Rodney Coronado has already spent a fair amount of time in jail, and there's whoever set that log-cabin-style ski lodge in Vail on fire. Ted Kaczynski seems like a good candidate - I think he and McVeigh have been talking in prison, they're being held in the same facility IIRC. But most of the left is too superstitious about having a personal relationship with violence for a likely suspect to emerge - they don't really embrace it until they're already in power, and then they're happy to use the existing institutional providers of force. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 18:13:26 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:13:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A2D9F31.1AA0E9DD@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > To prove destruction of evidence you must prove that it existed in a > form that was retrievable ( good luck ) and then that its destruction > was done by a person who was aware of the crime ( not always so in the > networking world ) for the purpose of concealing the crime( burden of > proof on you ). I clean disk space randomly and not according to any > schedule. > > Erase away, but not on the evil MS platform. Actually all you have to prove is it existed, say you find a body with a big hole that was caused by a gun. Hiding/destroying the gun down would be a crime at that point. If they could prove that you did the crime through other means, and that the crime was commited with a gun (which follows you had the gun at one time) then they could nail your slimey ass to the wall without ever laying hands on the gun. Similarly, grinding off s/n's, wiping disks (which your statement above would qualify as evidence), etc. to modify or otherwise alter the evidence would also be criminal. It's even a crime to destroy evidence in a civil (ie non-criminal) case. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 18:28:18 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:28:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Mark Allyn wrote: > Use PGP. Which doesn't help, there are issues related to key control and exchange that are not resolved. It further can be used as evidence against you if you are committing a crime, it is used to raise the sentence. It may be possible that you simply exchanging email (encryption speaks to premeditation which also raises the stakes) with another party is enough to tie you to the crime and find you guilty on other grounds. I hope you enjoy cooked goose. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Dec 5 20:47:35 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:47:35 -0800 Subject: Data Logs Message-ID: <3A2DC4E7.7B23AFA8@lsil.com> Jim, The bloke with the extra ventilation notwithstanding, with an open OS and open applications it seems easy to do pretty much whatever you want with disk data and logs regardless of what the letter of the law says. Electronic data is so malleable that its use as evidence seems questionable to begin with. It's not like a gun or a car which has a physical presence and cannot be duplicated or altered *quite* as readily as bits. ( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders for ballistic analysis ). This whole mess of communications and data privacy and copyright will be plaguing us for a long time and the most likely outcome is authoritarian legislation. Unless some Bush SC appointees are libertarians. Seem pretty likely? Mike From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Tue Dec 5 19:48:09 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:48:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: persuasive speeches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Persuading the audience that you're really not a fucking moron? Go find someone else to help you with your homework. On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 Lockinator21 at aol.com wrote: > I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? > -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email galt at inconnu.isu.edu From philchristian at bushinternet.com Tue Dec 5 12:56:58 2000 From: philchristian at bushinternet.com (PHILlIP CHRISTIAN) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:56:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <89854119.976049819687.JavaMail.root@bushtv-java-1-internal.server.telinco.net> please send me password From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 18:02:22 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:02:22 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 09:04:03AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001205210222.A24341@cluebot.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 09:04:03AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > KEYSTROKE MONITORING AND THE SOPRANOS > > A federal gambling case against the son of a New Jersey mob > > boss may provide the courts with the opportunity to weigh in A copy of the indictment is here: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/12/06/0138246 Nicodemo S. Scarfo, the defendant in this case, is the son of the former head of the Philadelphia-Atlantic City mob (who has been in jail himself since 1991); Nicodemo is currently out on bail and awaiting trial. His attorney was going to file a pretrial motion on the crypto issue, but was replaced today (conflict of interest rules) with a new attorney, with whom I have not yet spoken. So if you don't like this kind of FBI black bag job, you'll want to root for Mr. Scarfo. :) -Declan PS: Some background on FBI black bag jobs and crypto: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,33779,00.html From honig at sprynet.com Tue Dec 5 18:06:02 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:06:02 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's In-Reply-To: References: <20001205193744.3347E35DC2@smb.research.att.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001205174638.007f1cb0@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:32 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 2:37 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: >> Very interesting, but what does IBM have to do with the case? Did you >> mean to type "FBI"? > >Absolutely. > >God knows why I did it... You didn't; that bump in your keyboard cable automatically replaces that acronym with another. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Dec 5 18:06:02 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:06:02 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > >An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services in large cities. From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 18:22:07 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:22:07 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012060221.VAA20670@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sexy virgin.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 18:33:43 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:33:43 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C02@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From njohnson at interl.net Tue Dec 5 19:35:34 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:35:34 -0600 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <016501c05f35$986d9e00$0100a8c0@nandts> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" ... > It's even a crime to destroy evidence in a civil (ie non-criminal) case. That's why you hear about companies creating "data retention" policies. They're not really about "retention". The company sets standards that stipulate what records should be kept, how long, and most importantly to the company that they should be destroyed after the official retention time has passed. By setting forth such a policy they can tell a plaintiff "We're sorry, we don't have those documents/e-mails/data anymore. That data has been destroyed per our records retention policy". If they can prove that they have a policy and are following it, they can't be accused of destroying evidence. Nifty Huh ? In defense of companies, it keeps ambulance chasers from subpoenaing ALL the company's records and then finding some information (a disgruntled employee's e-mail rant), that taken of context, makes the company appear guilty. After e-mails were used by the DOJ as "evidence" that Micro$oft was guilty of "anti-competitive" practices, it was quietly proposed by legal department at a company I know of that the e-mail system be configured to automatically delete users e-mail after a set time period, and not allow the easy off-line storage of messages. It was handily rejected by the IT department as impossible to implement and shouted down by many managers who didn't want their CYA e-mails automatically deleted. Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 19:47:00 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:47:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: <20001205220910.D20420@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > I'm curious how many people would buy the story that the machine in > question fell victim to hackers who erased logs and other files in > order to cover their tracks. I think it would depend on circumstances. For something like this to be taken seriously there would have to be other evidence of hacking. In addition, remember that by now they've probably got your line tapped so they'd have a sniffer copy of the hackers attack (assuming there was one). Of course you could go otherwhere and attempt an attack yourself as an alibi. You could probably wrap strategies like this one inside the other. They would certainly tax patience and resources if done expertly. Especially if one had some anonymous remailer/proxies thrown in the mix. How I'd use this particular point would be from the police perspective. I'd turn an associate and have them send an incriminating email, testifying to same. Say wanting to buy a quantity of drugs. The LEA's would of course have a sniffer log of that packet going into your machine. When they arrested you they would then look in your machine and if it was gone they could then demonstrate you destroyed evidence. This of course also breaks the standard 'encrypt using PGP' point as well. In that case the exchange of keys would demonstrate intent. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Dec 5 21:54:07 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 21:54:07 -0800 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001205214801.01ee1ec0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Adam Back wrote: > > > I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application > > > was MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related > > > to pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for > > > providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. James Donald replied: > > Payee traceability made it possible to close accounts related to > > pornography. Ecash is not truly cash like if the issuer can > > prevent it from being used by tax evaders, child pornographers, > > money launderers and terrorists. Anonymous wrote: > Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of > MTB, whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify > himself to the bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of > business, etc. This is SOP for other payment systems like credit > cards. Ecash is not supposed to be like credit cards. Had the coins been cashlike, joe pornographer could have sold them under the table to the flying nun, who would then cash them in her very respectable account, and pay Joe pornographer under the table. > It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their merchants. No > payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable cash system would > have been equally amenable to merchant screening. Any vendor has > the right to control whom it does business with, and MTB chose to > exercise its discretion in this way. Payee traceability made it possible for the vendor to control who used his ecash. With truly untraceable cash, the vendor can no more control who uses his coins than can an issuer of physical coins. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 1888xf3dGOa7E0/VKdf5i8BViiT/hrOp51IW5PzN 4SxTFltcoKTQc4eFab8ZoF0byDe9qzXOqtQUqYWwc From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 21:56:11 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:56:11 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:16:03PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the > >information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a > >side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer > >equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to > >reduce the effective security of a system. > > > I fully support this comment that the whole issue of "legality" is a > "side show." Exactly - not every attacker represents law enforcement, and not every law enforcement attack is performed with the intention of creating admissible evidence. The US' exclusionary rule is the exception, not the rule, worldwide - most courts take more or less whatever evidence they can get. And thugs and goons and spies of many flavors don't give a shit about even pretending to cover their tracks when they're not following the rules. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From sfurlong at acmenet.net Tue Dec 5 19:00:52 2000 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:00:52 -0500 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement Message-ID: <3A2DABAF.5BE7B048@acmenet.net> Tim May wrote: > ...As to GPG vs. PGP, I wouldn't > know about this, as I never try to check signatures. Aren't they > inoperable anyway? Uh, was that "inoperable" or "interoperable"? -- Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel 617-670-3793 sfurlong at acmenet.net From mendicott at igc.org Tue Dec 5 19:02:18 2000 From: mendicott at igc.org (mendicott at igc.org) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 22:02:18 -0500 Subject: Secure communications + Human rights Message-ID: Technomads, Good day from Western Australia! I recently met with Peace Brigades International (PBI) http://www.igc.org/pbi/ , and was asked how naive users could use affordable secure communications from extreme remote locations.... I don't have experience with PGP or other privacy technologies. Is there anything like a "PGP net", listserv, or email-based discussion technology available that incorporates security or privacy techniques?? If this is not an appropriate topic for the Technomads group, please email me directly with any suggestions, thanks!! Peace on Earth, - Marcus Endicott http://www.mendicott.com --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rsw at MIT.EDU Tue Dec 5 19:09:10 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:09:10 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:31:52PM -0600 References: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20001205220910.D20420@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > The destruction of property or materials which are evidence of a crime is > itself a crime if done intentionally to cover up that crime. I'm curious how many people would buy the story that the machine in question fell victim to hackers who erased logs and other files in order to cover their tracks. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Tue Dec 5 19:28:59 2000 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:28:59 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! References: <200012060034.TAA09445@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <001b01c05f34$61177800$05d3ae95@zh8qw> Ti faccio il culo come una campana se continui ad inviare files infettati!! Vatti a far fotere!! ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "Hahaha" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:35 PM Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! > > Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and > polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a > *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven > Dwarfs enter... > > From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 19:30:00 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:30:00 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012060329.WAA28011@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sexy virgin.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 5 19:30:01 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:30:01 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com> At 12:16 AM 12/5/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? Well, there's the guy who blew up the Wisconsin Army Research Center math building in the 70s (at night, and they hadn't known there was one person still in the building) who used ANFO. I think Bernadine Doern was part of the Columbia bomb-makers, though she may have been some other bunch of leftists. For more recent events, even though there isn't much of a Left left, you could either believe the FBI saying Judi Bari blew up herself and her friend with a pipe bomb a few years back, or believe everybody else who think the cops did it. (The friend was killed; Judy was injured, and she recently died of cancer.) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Frank.Trotter at EVERBANK.com Tue Dec 5 19:35:52 2000 From: Frank.Trotter at EVERBANK.com (Trotter, Frank) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:35:52 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Adam Back wrote: > I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application > was MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related to > pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for > providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. James Donald replied: > Payee traceability made it possible to close accounts related to > pornography. Ecash is not truly cash like if the issuer can > prevent it from being used by tax evaders, child pornographers, > money launderers and terrorists. Hettinga replied: > Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of > MTB, whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify > himself to the bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of > business, etc. This is SOP for other payment systems like > credit cards. > > It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their > merchants. No payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable > cash system would have been equally amenable to merchant > screening. Any vendor has the right to control whom it does > business with, and MTB chose to exercise its discretion in > this way. > > The Texas couple in the news recently made a different > choice and decided to provide payment services for child > pornographers, as James Donald recommends. Now MTB is still > in business (after merging with MTL and then FSR) and the > Texans are in jail. Which made a better choice? There are a host of issues that prevented the widespread use of eCash(tm), or perhaps better phrased didn't properly incent the widespread use of eCash in the mid-1990's. Certainly a number of the decisions I made contributed, but I don't believe that the merchant criteria was even a blip despite the firestorm the action created within a narrow community - see http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_12.html for a contemporaneous and at the time much appreciated commentary from you-know-who. Ultimately any "value transfer system" must be broadly accepted across personal, business and institutional entities (yes I think the latter two are different) - today all of these can interchangeably use cash, checks, ach or wires for example. The combination of credit quality, trust, and lowest transaction costs must all be present for something to replace our current mediums. When value is involved wealth-owners tend to focus first on the trust and credit issues - if your wealth disappears then it just doesn't matter what the transaction costs are. Some recent discussions on or near this list of perceived issues with PayPal and e-gold point out that the trust factor includes all participants agreeing on the rules of engagement. To achieve the primary trust and credit goals of wealth owners and within the constructs that are available to us today this seems to mean that regulated financial institutions may need to be involved, but the form and content are yet to be determined. FOT Personal comments only. ======================== Frank O. Trotter, III President - everbank.com Spank your banker and come on over to http://www.everbank.com everbank is a Division of Wilmington Savings Fund Society, FSB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.2 iQA/AwUBOi2xKKc6Jcu2sioFEQLZhgCg7qjfsjLUHioCyH8NHbkl4YOwdxgAoI47 1aFn+T5SHhxW+fYgpxnuGeNQ =ezLL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 19:42:05 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:42:05 -0500 Subject: Secure communications + Human rights Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 19:42:11 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:42:11 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C04@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 680 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Tue Dec 5 19:49:42 2000 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:49:42 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! References: <200012060329.WAA28011@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <000d01c05f37$402c9f00$05d3ae95@zh8qw> Allora sei un vizioso! Vieni qui che proviamo. ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "Hahaha" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 10:30 PM Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! > > Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and > polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a > *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven > Dwarfs enter... > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 20:57:07 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:57:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <3A2DC4E7.7B23AFA8@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > The bloke with the extra ventilation notwithstanding, with an open OS > and open applications it seems easy to do pretty much whatever you want > with disk data and logs regardless of what the letter of the law says. Agreed, but also irrelevant. > Electronic data is so malleable that its use as evidence seems > questionable to begin with. It's not like a gun or a car which has a > physical presence and cannot be duplicated or altered *quite* as readily > as bits. This makes them more dangerous and likely to be the center of controversy. As to altering bits, depends on what bits where you are talking off. Not all bits are equal. > for ballistic analysis ). This whole mess of communications and data > privacy and copyright will be plaguing us for a long time and the most > likely outcome is authoritarian legislation. I believe the long term (say 100 to 250 years) will be elimination of copyright, trademark, and IP in general. It will be the consequence of a growing 'Yeah, but what have you done for me today?' attitude. I believe the Open Source movement is one component. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ddt at lsd.com Tue Dec 5 22:58:25 2000 From: ddt at lsd.com (Dave Del Torto) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:58:25 -0800 Subject: "Hello, You're Dead" Message-ID: "...Hitting the 5, 6, 7 and 8 buttons on the phone gun fires four .22-caliber rounds in quick succession. ..." OK, so I can accept that only Mad Dogs & (Home Office) Englishmen may be looney enough to sit around under the noonday press coverage after someone's leaked their classified plans to store seven years' worth of everyone's communications (Ministry of Silly Flippin' Traffic-analysis... MSFT?), and maybe Viagra is responsible for all this US presidential madness (how else could two old white guys hold an election for so long? ;) -- but what the hell is going on when you can't order a damned pizza over the phone without risking that you'll blow your own salami off? dave ____________________________________________________________________________ "It's not the Voting that makes Democracy, it's the Counting." -Tom Stoppard From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 20:05:47 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:05:47 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 9:06 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, David Honig wrote: > A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. This is why Chaum wants a small cryptographic device with it's own I/O, certainly. We'll get one when there's enough money behind it. Money's edge of the wedge... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 5 23:18:09 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:18:09 -0800 Subject: Exclusionary Rule and Black Bag Jobs In-Reply-To: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: At 9:56 PM -0800 12/5/00, Greg Broiles wrote: >On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> >The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the >> >information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a >> >side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer >> >equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to >> >reduce the effective security of a system. >> >> >> I fully support this comment that the whole issue of "legality" is a >> "side show." > >Exactly - not every attacker represents law enforcement, and not every >law enforcement attack is performed with the intention of creating >admissible evidence. The US' exclusionary rule is the exception, not >the rule, worldwide - most courts take more or less whatever evidence >they can get. And thugs and goons and spies of many flavors don't >give a shit about even pretending to cover their tracks when they're >not following the rules. And the "exclusionary rule" is mostly meaningless, anyway. Though there is much noise about "fruit of the poisoned tree" (or "poison tree," not sure which), a black bag job can generate other grounds for arrest and prosecution. For example, planned meets, planned heists, etc. One of my favorite movies of all time is "Heat," with Robert De Niro and Al Pacino. The cops are trying to prove a gang is pulling off a series of violent heists. Surveillance is heavy, and the surveillance per se is not intended to be used in a court: the cops are seeking to catch the gang in action. And then there's the old "confidential informant" ploy: "We got a tip from our snitch." Make no mistake about it, the exclusionary rule will do little to deter black bag jobs. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 20:27:45 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:27:45 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 205 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 20:37:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:37:43 -0500 Subject: damsel in distress In-Reply-To: ; from jill@8th-ellsworth.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:58:11PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001205233743.B24447@cluebot.com> I included ordering info in a wired.com column earlier this year. Ah, here it is: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,39172,00.html Or you can make a bid for one of the copies of the movie already out there in cypherpunkly hands. :) -Declan On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:58:11PM -0800, Jill Flomenhoft wrote: > Help! Can anyone refer me to a copy of the film "Cryptic Seduction" (1998)? > I can't find it anywhere... > > Many thanks, > Jill > > From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Dec 5 20:53:05 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:53:05 -0500 Subject: Keystroke monitoring Message-ID: <3A2DC710.7F494CFF@lsil.com> >> A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. > What are the problems with something like the Compaq iPaq? Open HW design, replaceable OS. Buy for cash. Possession is somewhat obscured. If you can boot external SW ( no reason why not ) you can check the ROM integrity. The CPU is relatively quick. Looks OK to me. Has audio i/o too. Too bad no enet on-board. >This is why Chaum wants a small cryptographic device with it's own I/O, >certainly. > >We'll get one when there's enough money behind it. Money's edge of the wedge... > >Cheers, >RAH > From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 5 21:00:07 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:00:07 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 10:30 PM -0500 12/5/00, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 12:16 AM 12/5/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > >>I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? > >Well, there's the guy who blew up the Wisconsin Army Research Center >math building in the 70s (at night, and they hadn't known there was >one person still in the building) who used ANFO. > >I think Bernadine Doern was part of the Columbia bomb-makers, >though she may have been some other bunch of leftists. > >For more recent events, even though there isn't much of a Left left, >you could either believe the FBI saying Judi Bari blew up >herself and her friend with a pipe bomb a few years back, >or believe everybody else who think the cops did it. >(The friend was killed; Judy was injured, and she recently >died of cancer.) She and her friend were on their way to speak in my town, Santa Cruz. And there had been a power outage a few months earlier, caused by power lines being blown up, and claimed to be an action by "Earth Action Night." Many of us here in Santa Cruz assumed that Judy was transporting another bomb down to this area. I don't believe her friend was killed in the blast, though. Let me go check... Nope, her passenger, Darryl Cherney, did not die. I have no knowledge one way or another about whether the FBI did it, rivals did it, or they were transporting a bomb to the Santa Cruz area for another "Earth Action Night" bombing. I tend toward the latter view. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Dec 5 21:06:08 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:06:08 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3A2DC93B.6FB1DD42@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Bill Stewart wrote: > For more recent events, even though there isn't much of a Left left, > you could either believe the FBI saying Judi Bari blew up > herself and her friend with a pipe bomb a few years back, > or believe everybody else who think the cops did it. > (The friend was killed; Judy was injured, and she recently > died of cancer.) No, he wasn't killed, he's still alive and agitating. He wasn't hurt as badly as she (the bomb was under her seat). Interesting thing was the FBI had just been holding a bomb class for the local pigs just before this, where they taught the oinks to build pipe bombs, practice setting them off in a nearby quarry, etc. And guess who showed up at the bombing scene within 15 minutes of the bomb explosion? Why, your friendly FBI bomb teachers. They arrested Judi and Darryl Cherney at the scene as "terrorist bombers" and are now being sued for false arrest, etc. What a great country we live in, eh? From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 22:15:21 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 01:15:21 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012060614.BAA14307@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dwarf4you.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 22:26:00 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 01:26:00 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C06@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 6 01:46:34 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 01:46:34 -0800 Subject: ANNOUNCE: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks, December 9, Jupiter, Berkeley Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001206014634.00923d20@idiom.com> SF Bay Area Cypherpunks July 2000 Physical Meeting Announcement Meeting Announcements On The Web: http://www.cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html General Info: DATE: Saturday December 9, 2000 TIME: 1:00 - 6:00 PM (Pacific Time) PLACE: Jupiter, 2181 Shattuck, Berkeley Agenda - "Our agenda is a widely held secret" The organized program begins about 1:00. After the meeting, there is usually dinner somewhere nearby. Jupiter is a brewery, with pizza and sandwiches and their own beer and other brewers' beer. This is an open meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited, including some suspiciously foreign Canadians and Brits who are expected. However, it's possible there will be Stupid Government Tricks restricting people under 21, because of the presence of ethanol. Some expected people and discussion topics: Secure Mail Programs. BayFF held a meeting Monday 12/4 - if anybody attended, we'd really like to hear what you thought. Many of the usual suspects, good and bad, were there. Ian Goldberg - Ian is finishing his doctorate and fleeing North. Phill Hallam-Baker - XKMS Key Management System - Verisign and WWW Consortium Nick Szabo - Smart Contracts Bill Stewart - NSA Crypto Museum - I visited the NSA Crypto Museum, and brought back brochures and an Enigma cracker. Most of my pictures are too dark, but if one of you knows Photoshop, that may be fixable. Location: Jupiter, 2181 Shattuck, Berkeley http://www.jupiterbeer.com/berkeley/ We will be in the heated outdoor beer garden, weather permitting, or conspicuously inside. Jupiter opens at high noon. Directions: BART: Take BART to Berkeley station; Jupiter is across the street. Driving: Take 80 to University Avenue, turn right on Shattuck, about 3 blocks. Map: http://www.jupiterbeer.com/berkeley/directions/ Lat/Long: 37.869765 N 122.268175 W ========= If you have questions, comment or agenda requests, or you need directions, please contact the meeting organizers: Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com Cell +1-415-307-7119 Dave Del Torto, Dave at DelTor.to Cell +1-415-730-3583 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This announcement has been sent to the meetingpunks and cypherpunks lists. You can find the announcement online at http://www.cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html To UNSUBSCRIBE an address from the meetingpunks list send email to: meetingpunks-request at majordomo.cryptorights.org with "unsubscribe meetingpunks [optional-address]" in the BODY. To SUBSCRIBE an address to this list send email to: meetingpunks-request at majordomo.cryptorights.org with "subscribe meetingpunks [optional-address]" in the BODY. To contact the list-owner, send email to meetingpunks-admin at cryptorights.org. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks list, look at the mail headers, find which of the servers sent you the message, and send mail to cypherpunks-request at that server saying "help". --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From rsw at mit.edu Wed Dec 6 00:26:39 2000 From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 03:26:39 -0500 Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 09:47:00PM -0600 References: <20001205220910.D20420@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001206032639.B21783@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > This of course > also breaks the standard 'encrypt using PGP' point as well. In that case > the exchange of keys would demonstrate intent. Unless you and the person with whom you are commmunicating publish your public keys on a key server before any of the government action in question takes place. In that case, you wouldn't have to send your key to that person---they can access it via the keyserver. As to getting their key, it wouldn't be hard to have that person post a signed message to a public list to which you are subscribed, giving you demonstrable reason to download his/her public key. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From nytdirect at nytimes.com Wed Dec 6 01:27:35 2000 From: nytdirect at nytimes.com (The New York Times Direct) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:27:35 -0500 Subject: Today's Headlines from NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012061034.CAA09860@toad.com> TODAY'S HEADLINES The New York Times on the Web Wednesday, December 6, 2000 ------------------------------------------------------------ For news updated throughout the day, visit www.nytimes.com QUOTE OF THE DAY ========================= "American children continue to learn, but their peers in other countries are learning at a higher rate." - RICHARD W. RILEY, secretary of education, on the results of an international test of math and science. Full Story: http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/national/06EXAM.html BUSINESS ========================= Greenspan Suggests the Need to Lift Rates Is Diminished http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06FED.html Market Place: Whoopee, a Stock Surge! Now a Reality Check http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06PLAC.html Management: Big Plush Offices Make Way for Humble Space http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06OFFI.html U.S. Joins in Suits Against Lockheed Martin http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06DISC.html /--------------------- ADVERTISEMENT ---------------------\ Mark the elections with a presidential screensaver To celebrate the elections, NYTimes.com has created a Presidents screensaver that captures some of history's finest moments from The New York Times Photo Archives. Enjoy these images every day on your PC or Mac, absolutely free. http://www.nytimes.com/partners/screensaver/index.html?ibd \---------------------------------------------------------/ INTERNATIONAL ========================= Putin Pushes Soviet Hymn, Creating Disharmony http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/world/06RUSS.html UN Security Council Lets Iraq Spend Oil Fund http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/world/06IRAQ.html Palestinian Economy in Ruins, U.N. Says http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/world/06MIDE.html America to Press Security in Distant Ports http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/world/06NAVY.html NATIONAL ========================= U.S. Students Fail to Keep Up in Global Science and Math Tests http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/national/06EXAM.html Antigang 'Role Model' Is Up for a Nobel and Execution http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/national/06PRIS.html Independent Counsel Seeks to Interview Lewinsky Again http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/politics/06INQU.html Ex-Aide Charges Harassment in Milwaukee http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/national/06MAYO.html SPORTS ========================= Devils Humble the Avalanche http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/sports/06DEVI.html New Champ Learned Patience http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/sports/06VECS.html A Man Who Likes His Quiet Comes to the Big, Noisy City http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/sports/06MUSS.html Division Race Just Got Harder for Mets http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/sports/06SKED.html TECHNOLOGY ========================= Xerox to Spin Off Company http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/technology/06XERO.html Apple Warns It Will Record Loss http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/technology/06APPL.html Nasdaq Sets Record in Rally http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06STOX.html Consortium Offers Unfiltered Advice on Filtering Software http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/technology/06EDUCATION.html ARTS ========================= The British Museum: Stodgy Never Looked So Chic http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/arts/06MUSE.html Step by Step, Sol LeWitt's Work Climbs the Walls at the Whitney http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/arts/06LEWI.html 'Tiny Alice': Testing a Steadfast Faith With Flesh http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/arts/06ALIC.html A Pocket-Size Opera From a Harrowing Kafka Story http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/arts/06ARTS.html NEW YORK REGION ========================= U.S. to Order $490 Million River Cleanup by G.E. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/science/06HUDS.html Fall From Subway Train Kills 3-Year-Old Boy in Brooklyn http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/nyregion/06TRAI.html A Repaved Path Underpins a Revitalization Plan http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/nyregion/06REAL.html Scout Issue Stirs Revolt by a Board Chancellor Attacked for Limiting Access http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/nyregion/06SCOU.html OP-ED COLUMNISTS ========================= By PAUL KRUGMAN: Cheney Gets Vulgar Dick Cheney, speaking last weekend, gave us our first post-election hints about Gov. George W. Bush's economic policy. And the news is not good. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/opinion/06KRUG.html By MAUREEN DOWD: Sisyphus at Starbucks Vice President Al Gore must realize that he will not make the move down the West Wing hall, despite the fact that everyone knows that he won. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/opinion/06DOWD.html HOW TO CHANGE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION ------------------------------------------------------------ You received these headlines because you requested The New York Times Direct e-mail service. To cancel delivery, change delivery options, change your e-mail address or sign up for other newsletters, see http://www.nytimes.com/email HOW TO ADVERTISE ------------------------------------------------------------ For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson Racer at alyson at nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo From andrew.drapp at hitachi-eu.com Wed Dec 6 02:25:10 2000 From: andrew.drapp at hitachi-eu.com (Andrew Drapp) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 05:25:10 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > R. A. Hettinga wrote: > This is why Chaum wants a small cryptographic device with it's own I/O, > certainly. > > We'll get one when there's enough money behind it. Money's edge > of the wedge... We have it now. Smartcards. High end smart cards, with a co-processor on board can do their own encrypting and decrypting. Of course, they are still slow enough that you wouldn't want to encrypt/decrypt any large files onboard the card, but for small text it isn't a problem. Bringing this back to PGP and how you might protect the keys, you could keep the keys on the smartcard, or just the passphrase on the smart card. The card could be locked to a PIN number, which after X incorrect entries locked the card permanently. You wouldn't want to do PGP encryption on the card, so the key/passphrase is can still be sniffed when it is pulled off of the card. Regards, Andrew Drapp -- Andrew Drapp PGP Encrypted Email Preferred (KeyID 65A52F89) ********************************************************************* E-mail Confidentiality Notice and Disclaimer This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited. E-mail messages are not necessarily secure. Hitachi does not accept responsibility for any changes made to this message after it was sent. Please note that Hitachi checks outgoing e-mail messages for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************* From folgore at pilot.infi.net Wed Dec 6 03:22:38 2000 From: folgore at pilot.infi.net (Christopher Wakefield) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:22:38 -0500 Subject: say again ? Message-ID: <000001c05f76$d71f3460$dc549cd1@wakefield> it is me the one who asked for the picture . the email was received but then my email crashed and lost it please send it a gain thankyou -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 464 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 04:04:56 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:04:56 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A2E2B15.DC655711@ricardo.de> David Honig wrote: > Hitler's estate would be the natural heir (under US law :-), although I can > believe that .de would seize it too, if he had no heir, or if they > didn't like him. he had no heir, and I believe the (C) falling to bavaria (not germany!) was incidental, not planned. From RKBARTVI-3 at webtv.net Wed Dec 6 04:11:17 2000 From: RKBARTVI-3 at webtv.net (Ronald Booker) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:11:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: For Sale,Docket No.99-80106 and,or the U.S.Constitution Message-ID: <114-3A2E2CE5-3@storefull-296.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Why was the State of California vs.Mr.O.J. Simpson"allege" Trial of the Century such a mockery of justice ? The contents thats associated with Docket No.99-80106 of the,U.S.Court Of"Appeals"For The "Ninth Circuit" provides the answer !!! Not only do you have proof of statutory crimes that undermines the goverment,by california legislation.but there is proof as to how,federal judges "still obstruct justice" to cover up for the legislation that is in Sacremento,Ca. Which former governor,P.Wilson,former state attorney general,D.Lungren,(Ca.state dept.of justice),the state's"corrupt"supreme court justices,former speaker of the state legislator,now Da Mayor of San Francisco,Ca. the Hon.Judge Ito, Mr.J. Cochron,(Amend.VI),all conspired to obstruct justice to cover up for the state legislation,(thats still in Sacremento,Ca. Smile !!!),that abrogates the Bill of Rights. The documentation that is associated with Docket No.99-80106 gets better and,or the facts,"evidence" and law proves the roles of non other than the,U.S.Dept.of Justice,(Frist Lady,H.R.Clinton"Esquire" her inlaws,U.S.Sen. B.Boxer and spouse,(Boxer,Elkind,& Gerson), Madam Atty.Gen.,Reno,U.S.Atty.,M.Yamaguchi or several Assist.U.S.Attorneys,the F.B.I.),U.S. Senator, D. Feinstein,U.S.Congressmen,B.Lee,the Sec.of H U D.Mr.A.Cuomo,(state dept of justice,state superior court judges,of Case No.763049-9 of the Alameda County Superior Court !),in "illegal' conspiracies to obstruct justice,to hinder the prosecution of, U.S.Senator,B.Boxer,(the inlaws of the Frist lady), for her roles in "multiple violations" of "federal" and state laws,by statutory crimes,the aborgations of the Bill of Rights,where federal and state judges conspire to protect those that betray the U.S.Constitution. Where law enforcement obstuct justice to cover up,"illegal' conspiracies to plot,Manslaughter,Mureder, "Legal Malice",by law,by legislation !!! No wonder the allege Trial of the Century was a lark,as the public cannot be made aware of the betrayals of the U.S.Constitution by laws,which the Justices of the U.S.Court of"Appeals' For The "Ninth Circuit",subverts their sworn oaths and the U.S.Constitution to cover up !!! Yet the facts associated with Docket No.99-80106 of the,U.S.Court of "Appeals" For The "Ninth Circuit" and the legislation,(Smile !),that is still available in Sacremento,Ca. proves ! Mrs B.Boxer,(U.S.Senator,former,U.S. Congresswomen,the inlaw of the Frist Family of the United States !),is a very Evil and Corrupt person. Not everyone can get a Frist Lady of the U.S.,& the U.S.Dept.of Justice,& Federal Judges, to assist in obstucting justice !!! Smile, which again abrogates the Bill of Rights and,or Amendment 14 sec.1 "?" Sincerely Ronald K.Booker States,(Ca.),W.C.A.B.,No.Oak.0176038,"1992" From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 04:17:30 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:17:30 -0500 Subject: German Faces Charges for Selling Adolf Sofa References: <55bfb85db82c706b2c271f86386637db@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: <3A2E2E19.29232B30@ricardo.de> Anonymous wrote: > > Monday December 4 9:56 AM ET > German Faces Charges for Selling > Adolf Sofa Set > > By Fiona Shaikh what a "fine" piece of journalism. especially the "faces charges" derived from "someone asked the government to start a prosecution". From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 05:19:13 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:19:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: <20001206032639.B21783@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > Unless you and the person with whom you are commmunicating publish > your public keys on a key server before any of the government action > in question takes place. No, that won't work either. Simple publishing is no cover at all. Evidence doesn't have to be secret to be evidence. Even public statements (equivalent to publishing public keys) can be used against you. If there is an exchange of encrypted data, that in and of itself is sufficient to demonstrate communications. That is enough to demonstrate intent and cooperation. Further, since the public keys are useless in and of themselves for encryption without the private keys any exchange would demonstrate that each party had access to the relevent private keys mapped to the public keys. It's possession of the private keys that will roast your goose. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From directmarketing at netzero.com Wed Dec 6 08:30:28 2000 From: directmarketing at netzero.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:30:28 -0800 Subject: Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly At Home - Here's How! Message-ID: <200012061638.IAA25681@cyberpass.net> Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly Home Workers Needed Nationwide Hundreds of companies are currently looking for telecommuters. There is no experience needed and you can start right away. This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program. In fact, none of the companies require any special fees to get started. Many offer free training. Start earning money in your spare time. You set the hours, you decide how much you want to make. Email powerstaff at earthlink.net with "Work At Home" in the subject heading for complete details. Best Wishes Home Workers Directory P.S. Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. 3VABW2E5QW From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Dec 6 09:00:46 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:00:46 -0800 Subject: iPaq Message-ID: <3A2E70BE.CBD57F7E@lsil.com> The device has extension ports that allow PCMCIA and Compact Flash. These adapters are in the $50 range. There are wireless modems available but they're fairly pricey : ~$350 for the modem, $50.month for the service. All in all it looks pretty good. Schematics/specs open, Linux/X already ported. The specs are reasonable ( unlike Palm ) it's a 206MHz ARM9, USB, Audio, 320x240x12bit display, 16Mb FLASH, 32Mb DRAM if I recall correctly. Throw in a 512Mb IBM microdrive, CFS, it's not bad. Looks like the most secure option to me. Gateway SW over USB ( even for M$ OS ) shouldn't be too tough. I guess you could trust an M$ machine to handle already encrypted packets. From gbroiles at netbox.com Wed Dec 6 09:04:50 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:04:50 -0800 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:07:57PM -0500 References: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001206090449.K6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:07:57PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > A minor clarification: The formal proposal known as "Know Your > Customer" was withdrawn (see my back articles on that topic). But > other regulations in the same vein require banks to require ID. I'm not a banking law geek, but I believe that there are federal regs in place known as "know your customer" rules which apply to depository institutions like banks, credit unions, etc - the regs which were withdrawn would have required NBFI's (non-bank financial institutions) to comply with similar rules, as they're sometimes used instead of banks to avoid the KYC rules. Or am I thinking of something else? -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From rah at shipwright.com Wed Dec 6 06:47:50 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:47:50 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: At 9:56 PM -0800 on 12/5/00, Greg Broiles wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> >The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the >> >information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a >> >side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer >> >equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to >> >reduce the effective security of a system. >> >> >> I fully support this comment that the whole issue of "legality" is a >> "side show." > > Exactly - not every attacker represents law enforcement, Right. My own personal opinion is that the more *money* is controlled with cryptography and moved/stored on the internet, the stronger those technologies will become, and, unfortunately, not for any other reason. Like Whit Diffie has said, "cyberwar" will be "fought" by businesses, and not nation-states. Government black-bag jobs are just one of many kinds of theft... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Wed Dec 6 06:57:03 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:57:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:25 AM -0500 on 12/6/00, Andrew Drapp wrote: > We have it now. Smartcards. Smartcards may be more portable, but *don't* have their own I/O, and David Chaum was *not* talking about smartcards when he mad the point I was making. See the proceedings of the 1998 International Conference on Financial Cryptography for details. They're published by Springer-Verlag. Any large library should have them, if you don't want to actually buy them. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 10:14:42 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:14:42 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3A2E29FB.723D2363@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> <3A2E29FB.723D2363@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 12:58 PM +0100 12/6/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >Tim May wrote: >> This is misleading. There is much debate about ownership of the >> copyright, whether it has expired (as would normally be the case >> after roughly 70 years, whether the licenses sold to other publishers >> are valid, etc.). > >it's been changed to 70 years after death of author recently, at least >in the US. that would make the expire date 2015. > > > >> Quite odd that the publisher Houghton Mifflin would say they are >> donating all royalties since 1979 if in fact no copies have been >> published since 1945! >> >> Even more odd if some of us have copies in our libraries which were >> published much more recently than 1945. > >here's what I wrote: > >> only copies printed before 1945 are actually legal, > >am I missing the link between "legal" and "existing", or did you imagine >it? The copies published in the United States are fully legal. Whether Germany likes our laws is not my concern. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 07:38:42 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:38:42 -0500 Subject: mafia boy resists fedz Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206071931.007f8100@pop.sprynet.com> http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20001205/2888098s.htm 'Mafiaboy' trying to stare down prosecutors Lawyer: If teen accused of shutting down Web sites of CNN, Yahoo has to go to trial, prosecutors will pay By Kevin Johnson USA TODAY MONTREAL -- Nearly a year after a hacker shut down some of the biggest names on the Internet -- causing an estimated $1.3 billion in lost business -- prosecutors and lawyers representing a defendant known as ''Mafiaboy'' are locked in a high-stakes game of chicken over whether the case will go to trial. The 16-year-old is charged with the cyber equivalent of breaking and entering in assaults last winter that shut down sites operated by Yahoo, eBay, CNN and E-Trade. The attacks, in which the Web sites were overloaded with requests from supercomputers infected with a program planted by a hacker, affected millions of Internet users worldwide. If convicted, prosecutors say, Mafiaboy -- whose name is being withheld because he is a juvenile -- could face up to two years confinement in a youth center, $1,000 in fines and up to 240 hours of community service. Prosecutors are willing to consider a plea agreement, but only if it includes some confinement. Absolutely not, says the teen's attorney, who vows that if prosecutors stick to that position, they'll be sorry. Yan Romanowski says his client is bracing for a protracted trial, lasting four to six months, during which the defense will demand that the government show the computer program that brought the Internet giants to their knees. Internet security experts are calling the strategy blackmail, and prosecutors say they do not believe that publicizing the program, which Mafiaboy allegedly found on the Internet, would be necessary. Nevertheless, Romanowski, in a likely attempt to gain leverage in plea-bargain talks, is playing hardball. The lawyer plans to challenge the legality of wiretaps that allowed Royal Canadian Mounted Police to collect 40 days of telephone conversations, during which the teenager is alleged to have bragged about his exploits behind the keyboard. The wiretaps were planted after authorities traced computer ''fingerprints'' left on one supercomputer used in the attacks back to Mafiaboy. ''If that evidence is eliminated,'' Romanowski says, ''the whole case gets kicked.'' If the evidence stands, as prosecutor Louis Miville-Deschenes expects, the defense envisions a courtroom drama that will require some of the biggest players in electronic commerce to testify as embarrassed victims of a boy's mischief. ''This is not an open-and-closed case by any means,'' Romanowski says. Perhaps, but the lawyer's client might have not have helped matters when he was arrested last Friday and accused of violating the terms of his bail by repeatedly breaking school rules at Riverdale High. He remained in custody Monday night and was scheduled for a detention hearing today. ''The kid has been a general pain in the posterior,'' Miville-Deschenes says. This Friday, the teenager is expected to answer the hacking charges. Romanowski says he plans to plead not guilty. As part of any plea negotiation, prosecutors have asked him to participate in debriefing sessions with Canadian authorities and possibly U.S. investigators to discuss his relationships with a vast, international network of associates. Like detention, that's also unacceptable to the defense, say Romanowski and John Calce, 45, Mafiaboy's father. Because of ''loyalty,'' Calce says, there is no chance his son would sit down with authorities to discuss his private communications with friends. ''I don't think he'll be cooperating with them.'' In a bizarre case that parallels the one involving his son, Calce is facing a conspiracy charge because of what Canadian authorities heard on the telephone wiretap designed to garner evidence against his son. Investigators say they decided to move in on both of them the morning of April 15 after phone transmissions picked up Calce, who is president of a transportation company, allegedly planning to have someone rough up a business associate. Romanowski, who also represents Calce, suggests that the father's strong words on the telephone were simply misinterpreted. Calce says the dispute involved about $1.5 million but adds that he never intended to hurt anyone. ''It was the worst possible thing that could happen,'' Calce says of the police raid at his suburban home. ''I came downstairs in my bathrobe, and there were about 20 Mounties in my house. One guy grabbed me by the robe; I told him to get his hands off. I'm not an easy guy to push around.'' There is no disputing that. Calce's chalk-stripe suit doesn't hide his formidable size and raw manner. Unshaven and blunt-speaking, Calce's physical presence, plus the charge lodged against him, seems to invite questions about whether there is any special significance to his son's Internet moniker. Calce and his lawyer consider the question, share a chuckle and then politely decline to respond. ''I don't think we'll comment on that one,'' Romanowski says. Patrick Healy, a law professor at McGill University in Montreal, says a trial in the Mafiaboy case almost certainly would provide a unique forum to contest privacy issues and sabotage in the computer world. ''There have not been many prosecutions of this kind anywhere,'' he says. And if there is an advantage to taking this case to trial, the professor says, it might be tied directly to the defendant's age. ''A trial just might show this boy to be a clever kid who should not be hit with a ton of bricks,'' Healy says. Computer security analyst Marc Rasch says prosecutors should not be intimidated by Romanowski's threat to expose potentially damaging hacking information. In this case, he says, the type of assault already has been fairly well detailed in media accounts of the charges lodged against the boy. ''There is genuine risk that publication (of this formula) again could cause additional exploitation,'' Rasch says, ''but that shouldn't dictate how the prosecution should proceed.'' Miville-Deschenes, the prosecutor, does not appear to be fazed by the prospect of courtroom disclosure of sensitive information. However, he is concerned about the potential cost of a lengthy trial and the presentation of complex evidence to a judge whose computer savvy might be limited. ''I understand that there may be a certain Robin Hood-type aspect to this case'' that could foster sympathy for the defendant, the prosecutor says. ''This was a kid who was able to bring huge dot-com companies to their knees. . . . If he were an arsonist, people would want to stone him because of the damage he caused. The intent in this case and the damage caused is basically the same.'' If the hacking case goes to trial, Calce says, the defense will make no attempt to portray his son as a perfect kid. In addition to his arrest last Friday, the teen spent two days in detention last July for associating with two boys he was prohibited from seeing while the charges are pending. Romanowski says his client was merely attempting to avoid the two friends when police swooped in. ''The kid is definitely feeling the pressure,'' Romanowski says. ''He doesn't find it funny. He has found out that the margin for error in his life right now is not what it used to be. There are a lot of people out there just waiting for him to slip up.'' From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 11:01:52 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:01:52 -0800 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 12:17 PM -0500 12/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:22:30PM -0500, Greg Newby wrote: >> >> Bottom line, as usual, is to trust no-one, including ISPs >> or sysadmins that have a strong privacy ethic. > >On the web sites that I maintain, I have a stated policy that we >intend to challenge subpoenas for our web logs and user database. Of >course, talk is cheap, and I'd hope to find funding for lawyers or >pro-bono work. Then again, it's a likely possibility: When I got a >subpoena, I found pro bono counsel (and excellent one too). I'll say what I expect to do. Partly to address some interesting issues about how witnesses may be compelled to travel long distances (beyond the usual countywide travel that noncyberspace cases typically involve). And partly to think aloud on my plans. As Declan says, "talk is cheap," so I may wimp-out, or think better of my plans, or get advice which changes my mind. But here goes: -- if and when I am called to testify in the Bell or Parker re-trials or re-re-trials, I expect to hire no damned shysters -- ditto for a subpoena...I'll try to read the subpoena and understand it as best I can and then comply with it as best I can. (Of course, _serving me_ is problematic. I had a process server make several trips out to my semi-rural hilltop home in 1995 before finally reaching me at home. And that was when I still answering the doorbell. These days I use my peephole, or a t.v. camera I sometimes have set up. I doubt a process server could get to me.) -- if the law is so confusing that I am expected to "retain counsel" to explain it to me, while his $400 an hour meter is running, then the law is an ass -- I was surprised to see so many "affidavits" and "interviews" and "pre-trial statements" from various witnesses in the Parker case. Surely these people must have known that though their presence could have been compelled in Washington state, that they had no obligation to sit down with Federal agents and give interviews! In a nutshell, this has been my plan for the past year or so (subject to modifications, as noted above): If subpoenaed, I'll expect them to provide _all_ transportation and lodging, in advance, in acceptable-quality hotels and with nice transportation. In advance. (I don't lend money to the government--see note below). I'll give no interviews prior to be seated in the witness box. While I can be compelled to testify in a courtroom, I find nothing in the Constitution which says I may be compelled to give pre-trial interviews. (From t.v. shows, I gather it is common for both sides to extensively interview witnesses, getting "depositions," etc. I figure it may be interesting to put this to a test: "Put me on the stand if you can. But you won't know what I'll say until then.") Oh, and no "swearing on a Bible," as I'm not a follower of He Whose Name May Not be Uttered, or whatever name they call their god by. If asked a question, I will take my time to consider my answer and then answer as simply as possible. If I believe the terms in the question are ambiguous, I will ask for them to be clarified. If I am jailed for contempt, for unacceptable reasons, then I expect to take appropriate actions against the kidnappers at a later time. (Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the Constitution says citizens must lend money to the government and then petition to get some of it back later?) A bunch of my friends are involved in "pro se" court issues. While I hope to not waste valuable months of my life, as they have, coming up to speed on shyster jargon, I can't see the average lawyer picked out of a phone book knowing anything more about First and Fourth Amendment sorts of issues than I've picked up over the years. Most of the "court-appointed attorneys" seem to have been especially clueless in anything beyond pleading out a rapist. Anyway, I was not called to testify in the Parker case. In the latest Bell case, I don't know what will happen. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From announce at lga2.nytimes.com Wed Dec 6 08:03:53 2000 From: announce at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:03:53 -0500 Subject: Find more of what's inside NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012061608.IAA15730@toad.com> Dear Member, Thanks for joining the NYTimes.com community. We hope that you are finding our site to be an excellent source of insightful news coverage, in-depth analysis and the best in arts and entertainment. There are a lot of new and useful features on NYTimes.com that may not be immediately evident on our home page. 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From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 08:11:49 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:11:49 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: References: <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206075938.0080caf0@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:17 PM 12/5/00 -0500, Mark Allyn wrote: > >If you want to blab without being traced, go to the local public library >or netcafe. Some airports now have netcafe's that accept cash without >ID. Watch out for surveillance cams (incl. on public streets) if you're really going to attract uniformed attention. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 08:11:54 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:11:54 -0500 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <3A2DC4E7.7B23AFA8@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the >barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders >for ballistic analysis ). Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't afford to treat them as disposable. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 08:11:54 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:11:54 -0500 Subject: Keystroke monitoring In-Reply-To: <3A2DC710.7F494CFF@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206081105.00807b10@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:53 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >>> A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. >> >What are the problems with something like the Compaq iPaq? Open HW >design, replaceable OS. Buy for cash. Possession is somewhat obscured. >If you can boot external SW ( no reason why not ) you can check the ROM >integrity. The CPU is relatively quick. Looks OK to me. Has audio i/o >too. Too bad no enet on-board. Audio, eh? If it had a modem it would be a nice portable PGPfone. Anyone ever tried this on a CE handheld? From seanl at literati.org Wed Dec 6 11:23:14 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:23:14 -0800 Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:19:13AM -0600 References: <20001206032639.B21783@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001206112313.B3190@makoto.literati.org> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:19:13AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: [...] > It's possession of the private keys that will roast your goose. Fortunately the public key can be stored using steganography, or on some medium that can be physically destroyed, or whatever. Another option would be to use an elliptic curve scheme that generates the private key on the fly from a passphrase. Fortunately they can't read your mind yet, though keystroke readers could prove you knew the passphrase, but then again you might claim that since the cops (and anyone else reading your keystrokes) also knew the passphrase, that they had your private key as much as you did. And then there are ways to avoid having your keystrokes read. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/~seanl/ GPG/PGP signed/encrypted email preferred. Finger for public key. Key fingerprint = 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 From return66 at uole.com Wed Dec 6 08:28:27 2000 From: return66 at uole.com (return66 at uole.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:28:27 -0500 Subject: Need Money? Quick Approvals! 6124 Message-ID: <0000274e528d$00005e9a$00004837@from gauifece.cc.net.ei ([256.45.30.4]) by rsi5s2.daidacentotera.chua.caimety.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAA11875 ([256.45.36.257]) > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16023 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Dec 6 08:28:58 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:28:58 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> <3A2E2B15.DC655711@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A2E6938.B5453B9B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tom Vogt wrote: > > David Honig wrote: > > Hitler's estate would be the natural heir (under US law :-), although I can > > believe that .de would seize it too, if he had no heir, or if they > > didn't like him. > > he had no heir, and I believe the (C) falling to bavaria (not germany!) > was incidental, not planned. The will read something like: "What I possess belongs - in so far as it has any value - to the Party. Should this no longer exist, to the State; should the State also be destroyed, no further decision of mine is necessary. My paintings, in the collections which I have bought in the course of years, have never been collected for private purposes, but only for the extension of a gallery in my home town of Linz on Donau. It is my most sincere wish that this bequest may be duly executed. I nominate as my Executor my most faithful Party comrade, Martin Bormann " Of course, when the testator, the witnesses & almost all their surviving friends were dead, Martin Bormann was heading in the general dirction of the nearest long-range U-boat & a significant fraction of the Red Army was rolling down Unter den Linden in a very cross mood indeed; any relationship between Hitler's will & what actually happened to his possessions was pretty likely to be incidental & unplanned. kEN From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 6 11:33:48 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 11:33:48 -0800 Subject: "Hello, You're Dead" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001206113348.01a2d720@idiom.com> At 11:50 AM 12/6/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >[ukcrypto and Perry's list deleted] >> Dave Del Torto[SMTP:ddt at lsd.com] wrote >> >> >> >> "...Hitting the 5, 6, 7 and 8 buttons on the phone gun fires >> four .22-caliber rounds in quick succession. ..." >> >The article goes on to say that the Men With Guns may now take reaching >for a cell phone as adequate excuse to kill you. Guess you don't get your One Phone Call To Your Lawyer any more... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Dec 6 08:50:29 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:50:29 -0500 Subject: "Hello, You're Dead" Message-ID: [ukcrypto and Perry's list deleted] > Dave Del Torto[SMTP:ddt at lsd.com] wrote > > > > "...Hitting the 5, 6, 7 and 8 buttons on the phone gun fires > four .22-caliber rounds in quick succession. ..." > The article goes on to say that the Men With Guns may now take reaching for a cell phone as adequate excuse to kill you. (Of course, in New York City, just pulling a wallet in response to an apparent mugging can get you shot 40 times by plainsclothes cops). Seeing the subject line, I was reminded more of the case a couple years ago when the Isrealis murdered a man via his own cellphone. A Palestinan, who was known as 'The Engineer' and was allegedly behind a number of terrorist attacks, used a known cellphone. As I recall, the hit went like this... The phone was made to appear 'broken' by the telephone company. It was taken in for repair/replacement. Soon after the new phone was delivered, the Palestinian received a call. The caller asked "Is this [name]?" On receiving an affirmative reply, a small explosive charge detonated in the phone, blowing the Palestinian's head off. Peter Trei From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 09:07:57 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:07:57 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com>; from gbroiles@netbox.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:18:53AM -0800 References: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> A minor clarification: The formal proposal known as "Know Your Customer" was withdrawn (see my back articles on that topic). But other regulations in the same vein require banks to require ID. -Declan On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:18:53AM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:40:08PM -0000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: > > Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of MTB, > > whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify himself to the > > bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of business, etc. This is > > SOP for other payment systems like credit cards. > > > > It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their merchants. > > No payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable cash system would > > have been equally amenable to merchant screening. Any vendor has the > > right to control whom it does business with, and MTB chose to exercise > > its discretion in this way. > > I don't know if MTB had a lot of discretion - banks are subject to the > federal "know your customer" regulations. You can't get depositor > anonymity from a bank chartered in the US, at least not without at least > one level of corporate indirection (e.g., the bank "knows its customer" > who is a domestic or foreign closely-held corp, who does the bidding of > its unidentified-to-the-bank-and-FINCEN shareholders). > > > The Texas couple in the news recently made a different choice and > > decided to provide payment services for child pornographers, as James > > Donald recommends. Now MTB is still in business (after merging with > > MTL and then FSR) and the Texans are in jail. Which made a better choice? > > Sounds like the Texans knew too much about their customers - if they > operated a content-neutral service which had many, many customers, > one of whom happened to be a child-porn service, they'd be doing fine, > especially if they shut off the child porn people if/when notified by > law enforcement of the activity. Does the FBI shut down AOL and Earthlink > when their subscribers traffic in child porn? > > -- > Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com > PO Box 897 > Oakland CA 94604 > From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 09:17:09 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:17:09 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu>; from gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:22:30PM -0500 References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:22:30PM -0500, Greg Newby wrote: > > Bottom line, as usual, is to trust no-one, including ISPs > or sysadmins that have a strong privacy ethic. On the web sites that I maintain, I have a stated policy that we intend to challenge subpoenas for our web logs and user database. Of course, talk is cheap, and I'd hope to find funding for lawyers or pro-bono work. Then again, it's a likely possibility: When I got a subpoena, I found pro bono counsel (and excellent one too). -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 09:20:16 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:20:16 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:28:39PM -0600 References: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20001206122016.C32016@cluebot.com> Might this be another crankish Jim Choate theory? I think the law is pretty clear: * For most ISPs and dot com sites, there is no general duty to preserve logs for five years, or for any time at all. Gramm-Leach-Bliley may change this when it take affect next year for sites dealing with cc#s; I haven't read up on the specifics. * Common carriers are regulated closely by the FCC and states. (Think: Approval required before raising prices.) ou don't want to be one. -Declan On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:28:39PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > > > The citation was given as the basis of the news story. And it shows that > > there is no five year retention requirement, only that the law is five years > > old. > > What law? > > Actually if you go look at the bottem of that news piece you'll find a > direct reference to CALEA (which I might add says nothing about log > retention for 'commen carrier' or otherwise). > > I'd still like somebody to explain what law was in reference with respect > to requiring log retention for any period, irrespective of how old the law > is. > > Note, this has NOTHING to do with a court order or request from a LEA and > at no point in that article was that claimed. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From jya at pipeline.com Wed Dec 6 09:31:27 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:31:27 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: References: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200012061735.MAA18400@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Jim Choate blindly wrote: >What law? The law was quoted just below the citation we provided: 18 USC 2703(f). The news report quotation exactly matches what the law says about preservation. Not that you'll read it but here it is again: Here's the source for news story report about data preservation requirement: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/COEFAQs.htm Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United States for nearly five years. 18 U.S.C. 2703(f) requires an electronic communications service provider to "take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process" upon "the request of a governmental entity." This applies in practice only to reasonably small amounts of specified data identified as relevant to a particular case where the service provider already has control over that data. Similarly, as with traditional subpoena powers, issuance of an order to an individual or corporation to produce specified data during the course of an investigation carries with it an obligation not to delete or destroy information falling within the scope of that order when that information is in the persons possession or control. ----- And here is the law cited by the DoJ FAQ: >From the US Code via GPO Access: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html 18 USC 2703(f) (f) Requirement To Preserve Evidence.-- (1) In general.--A provider of wire or electronic communication services or a remote computing service, upon the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process. (2) Period of retention.--Records referred to in paragraph (1) shall be retained for a period of 90 days, which shall be extended for an additional 90-day period upon a renewed request by the governmental entity. ----- Now, remember, "evidence" is what law-industry promoters call what civilians call "information." Evidence is used to force subservience to the law-industry. Information is used to fight those narrow-mindfuckers. So, Jim, stop calling information evidence unless you're bragging about fucking your peabrain. From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 09:42:53 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:42:53 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> <3A2E2B15.DC655711@ricardo.de> <3A2E6938.B5453B9B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3A2E7A60.E3FB58A6@ricardo.de> Ken Brown wrote: > The will read something like: good quote. > was rolling down Unter den Linden in a very cross mood indeed; any > relationship between Hitler's will & what actually happened to his > possessions was pretty likely to be incidental & unplanned. "unplanned" intended by me to have the meaning of: "not as in "let's seize the rights to everything he wrote, so we can stop the neo-nazis"". From rah at shipwright.com Wed Dec 6 09:47:32 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:47:32 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001206090449.K6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> <20001206090449.K6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: At 9:04 AM -0800 on 12/6/00, Greg Broiles wrote: > Or am I thinking of something else? You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security number to open a bank account, for any of a number of reasons including credit checks, and checks on how many, um, negative-funded, bank accounts you might have hanging out there before you opened this one. More to the point, since interest is taxable income for individuals, and a tax deductible expense for corporations, social security numbers are required in order to pay you interest. [And, yes, Duncan may be right, you might be able to spoof an SSN at them somehow, but I don't know anyone who's actually done it, admitted it in any public detail, and not been somehow razzed legally for it.] Kind of reminds me of TEFRA, in 1993 or so, which outlawed bearer bonds by making interest payable on them "non-tax-deductible" (taxable, for those in Palm Beach County). [The answer to this "lie to the government, don't get a bank account" problem, which any persistent cypherpunk subscriber knows, is, of course, to have payment systems which don't *need* physical identity for non-repudiation of transactions and the subsequent requirement of the force of a nation-state to make settlement risk manageable: bearer certificates based on cryptographic protocols like blind signatures, which will, frankly, only *really* be possible, soup-withdrawl to nuts-deposit, when a bearer currency issue is *itself* reserved by other digital bearer assets, instead of just a book-entry account somewhere.] Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Dec 6 09:49:41 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:49:41 -0500 Subject: iPaq Message-ID: There's also a Linux port, if you want to kid yourself that you're going to check the OS security yourself. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: mmotyka at lsil.com[SMTP:mmotyka at lsil.com] > Reply To: mmotyka at lsil.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 12:00 PM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: iPaq > > The device has extension ports that allow PCMCIA and Compact Flash. > These adapters are in the $50 range. There are wireless modems available > but they're fairly pricey : ~$350 for the modem, $50.month for the > service. All in all it looks pretty good. Schematics/specs open, Linux/X > already ported. The specs are reasonable ( unlike Palm ) it's a 206MHz > ARM9, USB, Audio, 320x240x12bit display, 16Mb FLASH, 32Mb DRAM if I > recall correctly. Throw in a 512Mb IBM microdrive, CFS, it's not bad. > Looks like the most secure option to me. Gateway SW over USB ( even for > M$ OS ) shouldn't be too tough. I guess you could trust an M$ machine to > handle already encrypted packets. > > From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 03:58:51 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:58:51 +0100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A2E29FB.723D2363@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > This is misleading. There is much debate about ownership of the > copyright, whether it has expired (as would normally be the case > after roughly 70 years, whether the licenses sold to other publishers > are valid, etc.). it's been changed to 70 years after death of author recently, at least in the US. that would make the expire date 2015. > Quite odd that the publisher Houghton Mifflin would say they are > donating all royalties since 1979 if in fact no copies have been > published since 1945! > > Even more odd if some of us have copies in our libraries which were > published much more recently than 1945. here's what I wrote: > only copies printed before 1945 are actually legal, am I missing the link between "legal" and "existing", or did you imagine it? From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 10:01:56 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 13:01:56 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001206090449.K6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001206125957.01db0370@mail.well.com> At 09:04 12/6/2000 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: >I'm not a banking law geek, but I believe that there are federal >regs in place known as "know your customer" rules which apply to >depository institutions like banks, credit unions, etc - the >regs which were withdrawn would have required NBFI's (non-bank >financial institutions) to comply with similar rules, as they're >sometimes used instead of banks to avoid the KYC rules. > >Or am I thinking of something else? You're thinking of something slightly different. The Fed-Treasury-FDIC action that caused so much fuss would have made "suggested" KYC rules that apply to banks mandatory. Here's the federal register notice abandoning the propsed KYC regs: http://www.politechbot.com/p-00315.html -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 10:03:51 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 13:03:51 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001206130307.01db4190@mail.well.com> Oh, and the proposed KYC rules would have required banks to go further than requiring ID (other current rules, as you say, require that) and try to determine source of funds, etc. -Declan >You're thinking of something slightly different. The Fed-Treasury-FDIC >action that caused so much fuss would have made "suggested" KYC rules that >apply to banks mandatory. Here's the federal register notice abandoning >the propsed KYC regs: >http://www.politechbot.com/p-00315.html > >-Declan From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 13:08:13 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:08:13 -0800 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 3:52 PM -0500 12/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >>(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that >>various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit >>travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the >>Constitution says citizens must > >Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like >$25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being called >to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. As I said, it's not my job to buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc. and then fill out a government form. Actually, I remember someone saying during the Parker case that a government travel office would make all travel and lodging arrangements. Not my job to lend money to the government. I'm watching a lawyer on the stand in the Seminole County part of the rolling trial say that he charges $500 an hour to testify in court cases. Sounds like a good fee for me to charge. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 04:08:21 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 13:08:21 +0100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <20001202202438-r01010600-ab028c0f@10.0.1.3> Message-ID: <3A2E2C35.2168F511@ricardo.de> fogstorm wrote: > So if an Australian puts it on his web site can the German government sue for > copyright infringement? Can they prosecute for violation of their anti Nazi > laws? If a German citizen views it in Amsterdam can his government prosecute > when he returns home? they'll most likely try to, if only to avoid some left-wing magazine headline along the lines of "german government allows nazi propaganda to remain online". there will be NO prosecution for "viewing" it. almost everyone over 60 may have read the damn book, and lots of copies are still around (many people got one for their marriage or other events, and keep them as memoralia(sp?)). this ain't thought-police. you are perfectly free to read this thing. AFAIK you aren't allowed to sell it, but that's it. From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 13:10:14 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:10:14 -0800 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> Message-ID: At 3:41 PM -0500 12/6/00, Russ K wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Wednesday 06 December 2000 11:11, David Honig wrote: >> At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >> >( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the >> >barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders >> >for ballistic analysis ). >> >> Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't >> afford to treat them as disposable. > >Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth >marks and other metal to metal contact. I can't believe I'm reading something so inane. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From jburnes at savvis.net Wed Dec 6 10:12:02 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:12:02 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <00120613210804.05483@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Tuesday 05 December 2000 22:05, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 9:06 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, David Honig wrote: > > A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. > > This is why Chaum wants a small cryptographic device with it's own I/O, > certainly. > > We'll get one when there's enough money behind it. Money's edge of the > wedge... > > Cheers, > RAH I think someone out there makes a USB client-side digital certificate device. The only problem is you have to type in your passphrase to unlock probably. PDA's would be better. A PDA with an infrared link to a USB/serial connector would be ideal. Preferably with random voice challenge/response or other biometric. jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 13:19:09 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:19:09 -0800 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 1:08 PM -0800 12/6/00, Tim May wrote: >At 3:52 PM -0500 12/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >>>(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that >>>various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit >>>travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the >>>Constitution says citizens must >> >>Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like >>$25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being >>called to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. > >As I said, it's not my job to buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc. >and then fill out a government form. > >Actually, I remember someone saying during the Parker case that a >government travel office would make all travel and lodging >arrangements. > >Not my job to lend money to the government. > >I'm watching a lawyer on the stand in the Seminole County part of >the rolling trial say that he charges $500 an hour to testify in >court cases. Sounds like a good fee for me to charge. I mis-spoke. He's not a lawyer...he's a statistics professor. Still, sounds like a good fee to charge for my "expert testimony" on Bell's scheme, should it come down to this. --Tim -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 10:29:37 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:29:37 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <20001206122016.C32016@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206101747.007a32b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:09 PM 12/6/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >* Common carriers are regulated closely by the FCC and states. (Think: >Approval required before raising prices.) ou don't want to be one. Yes, this was brought up recently when I mentioned common carrier protections for financial service providers, like the Texans. It should be possible to separate the non-responsibility-for-content from the *eminent-domain-derived* regulation of the copper-wire-plant monopoly. For instance, a contract printer is not (or should not be) held responsible for the content he prints, though his rates aren't regulated, because he doesn't use the "commons". You *do* want legal recognition of immunity for what clients use your service for, like a common carrier but without the FCC or PUC. Thanks for pointing out that "common carrier" is a tainted/burdened legal term. (I think they are separable functions: the telcos could still be held legally responsible for what you say even if their rates were unregulated.) From jya at pipeline.com Wed Dec 6 11:50:03 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 14:50:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200012061954.OAA03882@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> >From reading the docs at EPIC, it is not clear that the FBI actually got data from the planted device. The USA application dated June 8 asks for a supplemental order of extension of time in order to break in and remove the device. This need was caused by Scarfo's unexpected removal of the equipment. We have not been presented with the initial USA application and the initial order, at least not that I've seen. Interesting possibilities are: 1. The FBI is bluffing that it got incriminating data and is using the applications and orders as window dressing or camouflage to hide their failure. Or to hide that they got evidence some other way. 2. The FBI captured some stuff but is faking the rest. 3. Scarfo discovered the device, or suspected it, and removed the equipment in order to sanitize it, or even planted his own device aimed at the feds. Say he rigged a program to endlessly type "fuck you," Or played Bin Laden's taunts. He's a fair comp whiz so all sorts of good stuff may have happened. 4. If Scarfo got the device, by now defenses against it have been deployed, maybe even generated a tidy black market for those who want to snoop and/or snarl the feds by redirecting their own devices. From rkeni at cyou.com Wed Dec 6 12:41:36 2000 From: rkeni at cyou.com (Russ K) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:41:36 -0500 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 790 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 12:52:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 15:52:43 -0500 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> At 11:01 12/6/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >(Of course, _serving me_ is problematic. I had a process server make >several trips out to my semi-rural hilltop home in 1995 before finally >reaching me at home. And that was when I still answering the doorbell. >These days I use my peephole, or a t.v. camera I sometimes have set up. I >doubt a process server could get to me.) When I was served with a subpoena in the CJ Parker trial, I had had a party the night before and let a friend of a friend sleep over in my living room. The process server showed up around 7:30 am the following morning and my houseguest let him into the foyer. Grr. >-- I was surprised to see so many "affidavits" and "interviews" and >"pre-trial statements" from various witnesses in the Parker case. Surely >these people must have known that though their presence could have been >compelled in Washington state, that they had no obligation to sit down >with Federal agents and give interviews! When I was subpoenaed in the Parker trial, I did not give any pre trial statement or affidavits or whatnot. (There's no incentive for me to do so, and presumably little incentive for list members to do so, unless they see it as a way to avoid further involvement.) My lawyer was the person who had contact with DoJ. >(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that various >witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit travel expense >receipts." Is this true? What part of the Constitution says citizens must Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like $25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being called to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. -Declan From soosha0j03 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 6 16:02:44 2000 From: soosha0j03 at yahoo.com (IT IS SHOOOSH) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:02:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi Message-ID: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Daer Reciever... i am a stuend in an American University... and i am taking a public speaking course... i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my audience that seatbelts are not safe as we thought...there is a stydu done recently in England that showed that... i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more thank you Rasha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 16:20:43 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:20:43 -0800 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 4:02 PM -0800 12/6/00, IT IS SHOOOSH wrote: >Daer Reciever... >i am a stuend in an American University... >and i am taking a public speaking course... >i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final >speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my >audience that seatbelts are not safe as we >thought...there is a stydu done recently in England >that showed that... > >i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > >thank you >Rasha > Daer Reciever Rasha, i am happi you r a stuend. amrika needs good stuends. baste on yur speling, i think u shuld becum a teecher. --tim -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From mis at itiaccess.com Wed Dec 6 16:23:21 2000 From: mis at itiaccess.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:23:21 -0800 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> Message-ID: <000001c05fe3$e89a11c0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1699 bytes Desc: not available URL: From barryken at telusplanet.net Wed Dec 6 15:23:31 2000 From: barryken at telusplanet.net (Barry Kennedy) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:23:31 -0700 Subject: IP: ASIO cleared to hack into computers [NO COMMENT cept hope it does happen here djf] Message-ID: <000601c05fdb$8cfde560$1ec4b8a1@gov.edmonton.ab.ca> this sight sucks it doesn't tell you anything -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 357 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 17:02:17 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:02:17 -0800 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:48 PM -0500 12/6/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > > Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote: >> >> At 4:02 PM -0800 12/6/00, IT IS SHOOOSH wrote: >> >Daer Reciever... >> >i am a stuend in an American University... >> >and i am taking a public speaking course... >> >i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final >> >speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my >> >audience that seatbelts are not safe as we >> >thought...there is a stydu done recently in England >> >that showed that... >> > >> >i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more >> > >> >thank you >> >Rasha >> > >> >> Daer Reciever Rasha, >> >> i am happi you r a stuend. amrika needs good stuends. >> baste on yur speling, i think u shuld becum a teecher. >> >> --tim >> >Anyone else suspect that the original message (from a >throw-away yahoo account) is a troll, >and wonder if Tim might have been the author? > >[Tim, perhaps you're not, but replying so quickly in this >manner to the original message (which is a canonical >example of the way you satirize uneducated blacks) >is suspicious to say the least :-] First, this is not how I satirize uneducated--or even educated--blacks. I didn't use any ebonics code words, nor did I mention niggaz, crack hoes, or welfare entitlements. Rasha sounds like the typical illiterate student who has to take remedial English upon her arrival at Beaver College. I had a roommate in college who was one of these types, having to take the equivalent of "English for Dummies." He couldn't spell, he couldn't construct a sentence, and he couldn't read worth a damn. And that was 29 years ago. At a UC campus. I expect that standards have declined even further since then, especially as college has now become just an extension of high school. In fact, I expect that a lot of places like Beaver College, Lower Ohio River Valley State College, and Yankton Practical University are all being swamped by illiterate and innumerate students who barely graduated from their already-abysmal high schools. When a university education is an entitlement, gud stuends like Rasha are the result. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From alan at clueserver.org Wed Dec 6 17:14:09 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:14:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: > Anyone else suspect that the original message (from a > throw-away yahoo account) is a troll, > and wonder if Tim might have been the author? > > [Tim, perhaps you're not, but replying so quickly in this > manner to the original message (which is a canonical > example of the way you satirize uneducated blacks) > is suspicious to say the least :-] For some reason I am reminded of a line from the movie _A Shoggoth On The Roof_ (yes, there is such a beastie.): "Every one of us has a shoggoth on the roof. Not a metaphorical shoggoth, but a REAL Shoggoth! And how does he stay there you might ask? TENTACLES!" alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From bear at sonic.net Wed Dec 6 18:34:13 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:34:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: >What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > No, I'm sorry. If you wanted a fucking mailing list you're in the wrong place. There are plenty of lists devoted to fucking, but this isn't one of them. This list is devoted to cryptography and its geopolitical implications. Sorry about the mixup. Bear, Mildly annoyed by mindless dweebs who use "fucking" as though it meant something bad.... From carlstephen33 at writeme.com Wed Dec 6 19:08:06 2000 From: carlstephen33 at writeme.com (carlstephen33 at writeme.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:08:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [#1] Message-ID: <200012070308.TAA01474@toad.com> NEW AND EXCITING!! http://3506561041/iindex22/legal.html This Is A Weekly Mail List. To Be Removed Permanently Email permenentremoval at excite.com with "remove" somewhere in the subject line. PERMANENT REMOVAL!! From carlstephen33 at writeme.com Wed Dec 6 19:08:20 2000 From: carlstephen33 at writeme.com (carlstephen33 at writeme.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:08:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [#2] Message-ID: <200012070308.TAA01499@toad.com> HERE IS THE NEW SITE!! Flash Technology!! this is the future!! http://3506561041/iindex22/newflash.htm This Is A Weekly Mail List. To Be Removed Permanently Email permenentremoval at excite.com with "remove" somewhere in the subject line. PERMANENT REMOVAL!! From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:19:34 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:19:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001206075938.0080caf0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, David Honig wrote: > At 09:17 PM 12/5/00 -0500, Mark Allyn wrote: > > > >If you want to blab without being traced, go to the local public library > >or netcafe. Some airports now have netcafe's that accept cash without > >ID. > > Watch out for surveillance cams (incl. on public streets) if you're really > going to attract uniformed attention. It's also worth mentioning that many city police departments put IR and hi-res video around town. The Austin PD has several camera suites around town. One is on the top of the police station and monitors 6th Street (the major non-college hangout). Here in Austin we have bicycle cops who sit around using NVG's to catch people urinating in public and throwing up (public intoxication). There are at least a thousand video camera's on the major highways and a handful of primary intersections. Then there are private camera's as well. I have a friend who has 4 channels at 5fpm on a 'secret' webpage that surround his house. And just about every business you go into has video gear, some pointed out the door. It's amazing if you walk around looking for this stuff and keep a list. Anyone doing anything that might attract uniformed attention should be going the major Ninja route... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 6 19:26:09 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 19:26:09 -0800 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001206192609.01c1a740@idiom.com> At 05:14 PM 12/6/00 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote: >For some reason I am reminded of a line from the movie _A Shoggoth On The >Roof_ (yes, there is such a beastie.): > > "Every one of us has a shoggoth on the roof. Not a metaphorical > shoggoth, but a REAL Shoggoth! And how does he stay there you might > ask? TENTACLES!" YOW! Where can I find it? (Or how do I keep the Shoggoth from finding me?)(Oh. Not mentioning its name.)(Oh..........) ]-9028iu3r =EQ-WSD9A0fc8zuedxtg v-=]3wr 14508eux[;colf8itjmkqsvA] zx=]F\QSF*$q(*iztfg v\3-=Wqa(zidxcz0po[ikf]3-wpe[o04pirdfx=[] 0-p3iwsdARECfo0jygvh5]-9r3ud -g]94yut793]1q vt57575758yrtg043=qierg[vkrc kc=re[dsqaacdrsxz~~~ From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:33:08 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:33:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <200012061735.MAA18400@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > Jim Choate blindly wrote: > > >What law? > > The law was quoted just below the citation we provided: > 18 USC 2703(f). > > The news report quotation exactly matches what the law > says about preservation. Not that you'll read it but here it is again: Yeah, and it matches exactly what I said. It takes a court order, where is the law that doesn't take a court order, that makes this mandatory all the time?. This is what what the Europeans are talking about. They are talking about making it mandatory to keep all logs all the time. This is a big difference. The US representative is saying that the distinction between requiring me as a system operator to cooperate with the law via court orders and such or requiring me to keep my logs all the time is a small difference. Maybe you can't get it, but it is a HUGE!!!! difference. I'm telling you, dude, up the med's... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:37:48 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:37:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001206101747.007a32b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, David Honig wrote: > At 12:09 PM 12/6/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > >* Common carriers are regulated closely by the FCC and states. (Think: > >Approval required before raising prices.) ou don't want to be one. > > Yes, this was brought up recently when I mentioned common carrier > protections > for financial service providers, like the Texans. It should > be possible to separate the non-responsibility-for-content from the > *eminent-domain-derived* regulation of the copper-wire-plant monopoly. There are also issues of user rights. The 'common' means that it is a common resource for all in the community, shared. As a consequence any 'filtering' is highly injurious. Something to do with the 1st maybe?... But as a consequence it's other activities are regulated in the 'public interest'. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:41:56 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:41:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Oh, and no "swearing on a Bible," as I'm not a follower of He Whose They don't do that anymore. > In the latest Bell case, I don't know what will happen. Good luck if you need it. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Wed Dec 6 18:45:15 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:45:15 -0700 (MST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What does this look like, homework "R" us?! Please enlighten us as to which university you are going to, so we can forward your mail to the English department: it sounds like they could use a good housecleaning. As for seatbelts: I would suggest that you never use one yourself--perhaps we can all be so lucky as to see you dead on the side of the road. Perhaps we could even hold a cotillion on your grave. On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, IT IS SHOOOSH wrote: > Daer Reciever... > i am a stuend in an American University... > and i am taking a public speaking course... > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > that showed that... > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > thank you > Rasha > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email galt at inconnu.isu.edu From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:46:16 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:46:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: <20001206112313.B3190@makoto.literati.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Sean R. Lynch wrote: > On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:19:13AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > [...] > > It's possession of the private keys that will roast your goose. > > Fortunately the public key can be stored using steganography, or on some > medium that can be physically destroyed, or whatever. That sort of destroys the 'public' part of that doesn't it? This takes us into the "if you've got a channel to send the code on how to decode the public key, why not send the public key privately? And if the channel is safe enough to send the key privately why not send the message itself? There is also the point that if there is a public key and you claim it valid then by assumption you're also claiming there is a private key. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Wed Dec 6 18:46:35 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:46:35 -0700 (MST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: Amateur ;P~~~ 1 for effort, but 0 for style. On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > Subject: hi > > > > Daer Reciever... > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > that showed that... > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > thank you > > Rasha > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email galt at inconnu.isu.edu From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Dec 6 16:48:05 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:48:05 -0500 Subject: hi Message-ID: > Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote: > > At 4:02 PM -0800 12/6/00, IT IS SHOOOSH wrote: > >Daer Reciever... > >i am a stuend in an American University... > >and i am taking a public speaking course... > >i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > >speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > >audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > >thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > >that showed that... > > > >i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > >thank you > >Rasha > > > > Daer Reciever Rasha, > > i am happi you r a stuend. amrika needs good stuends. > baste on yur speling, i think u shuld becum a teecher. > > --tim > Anyone else suspect that the original message (from a throw-away yahoo account) is a troll, and wonder if Tim might have been the author? [Tim, perhaps you're not, but replying so quickly in this manner to the original message (which is a canonical example of the way you satirize uneducated blacks) is suspicious to say the least :-] Peter From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:51:06 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:51:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Russ K wrote: > Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth > marks and other metal to metal contact. So the moral of the story is... If you want to destroy the potential barrel you'll need to: - Have replacement barrels purchased in a non-traceable manner. - Have some mechanism to brush or scratch the inside of the barrel, - Apply a corrosive and allow it to thin the barrel significantly. - Then twist barrel and heat until red hot. - Then handle with non-metallic tools only until discarded. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 19:52:39 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:52:39 -0800 Subject: Bill Clinton belatedly decides that pot smoking should not be criminal In-Reply-To: <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Gee, Bill, you're only about 6-8 years too late: --excerpt-- Wednesday December 6 10:15 PM ET Clinton: Pot Smoking Should Not Be Prison Offense LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - President Clinton (news - web sites), who tried to avoid the stigma of smoking marijuana by saying he never ''inhaled,'' tells Rolling Stone magazine that people should not be jailed for using or selling small amounts of the drug. --end excerpt-- Instead of pushing for legislation in '93-94, Clinton is now opining that all of those hundreds of thousands of folks his Drug Warriors put in in prison maybe shouldn't be there. Something tells me the New Bill will soon be bashing Carnivore, CALEA, Clipper, Echelon, and all other things Janet Reno, Louis Freeh, Jamie Gorelick, and all of the other Drug Warriors and Ninja Raiders were pushing so hard. We may even see the New Bill say he was never in favor of burning 90 people alive in Waco for the sin of believing in a bizarre variant of Christianity. Of course, he probably did the RS interview when he thought Bush was going to win and his party would be the Disloyal Opposition, railing against Carnivore, no knock raids, sentencing enhancements, the persecution of Jim Bill, CALEA, and so on. The New Bill may have to modify his new radicalism in light of the possibility that Algore and his ZOG Veep may manage, through the cleverness of their shysters, to pull a victory out of the ashes. Revised version, in the December 23 "Letters to the Editor": "Actually, I was misquoted in that "Rolling Stone" article. What I actually said was that Sen. Clinton and I are both behind President Gore's Campaign to Save the Children Act. If those who traffic in the Evil Weed think they can hide behind the Constitution, they'd better watch out for the pre-dawn raids!" --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From measl at mfn.org Wed Dec 6 18:30:54 2000 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:30:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:50:41 -0500 > From: Islam M. Guemey > To: IT IS SHOOOSH , cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: hi > > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? The kind you fucking signed up for idiot! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > Subject: hi > > > > Daer Reciever... > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > that showed that... > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > thank you > > Rasha > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From islamguemey at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 17:50:41 2000 From: islamguemey at earthlink.net (Islam M. Guemey) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:50:41 -0500 Subject: hi References: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> What kind of fucking mailing list is this? ----- Original Message ----- From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM Subject: hi > Daer Reciever... > i am a stuend in an American University... > and i am taking a public speaking course... > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > that showed that... > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > thank you > Rasha > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Wed Dec 6 19:23:41 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:23:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: I'll guarantee you one thing, nobody on this list knows a damn thing about fucking. You've come to the wrong place. MacN On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > Subject: hi > > > > Daer Reciever... > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > that showed that... > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > thank you > > Rasha > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 19:27:26 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:27:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: hi Message-ID: toad.com is technicaly deprecated and any current subscribers should move to one of the alternate servers. The vast majority of discussion does not get sent to toad.com. There are currently seven servers to choose from. One server homepage at, http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html The current list is focused on cryptography, civil liberties, and economics. There is quite a bit of secondary chatter on a variety of topics. Sending viruses, suggesting the list be closed to non-members, subscribing the list to various sources of spam, asking for bomb info, and porno being the most popular off-topic topics. The most asked question is probably "How the hell do I get off this list?" or more accurately 'unsuvscribe'. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > Subject: hi > > > > Daer Reciever... > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > that showed that... > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > thank you > > Rasha > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > From francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com Wed Dec 6 12:41:00 2000 From: francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com (francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:41 +0100 Subject: Meet us on Wine Alley Message-ID: <200012062048.OAA26674@einstein.ssz.com> Hello! I found your address on a site about wine, food and good living. I thought that you will be interested by the services that our site offers. www.wine-alley.com is a virtual Club for all those interested in wine in both a professional and personal capacity. We now have more than 3900 members, both amateur and in the trade who use our site to discuss wine, buy and sell it and tell us about the best sources. Club members use the Newsgroup of www.wine-alley.com to exchange information and experiences. Only the other day someone asked how much a certain rare wine was worth, I asked for more information about the grape variety, which doesn't grow in France. Currently there have been more than 717 questions and replies. There is also the small ads. column. Among the 7 adverts placed this week there have been some really good deals including a magnum of 1945 Pichon Lalande and a 1947 Cheval blanc! Let me make it clear - www.wine-alley.com itself does not sell or buy wine: we simply offer our members the facilites for making their own arrangements. www.wine-alley.com is also a site supplying information in real time, particularly the latest news from winegrowers and makers via the French Press Agency (AFP). We also have a database of more than 21,000 wines with information supplied directly to the site by winegrowers co-operatives and specialist magazines. I should be delighted if you would come and join us. At www.wine-alley.com you will find similarly-minded people who just want to share their love of wine. Kind regards Frangois Xavier Bodin, Manager of the Online Club fx.bodin at winealley.com PS. Registering with the www.wine-alley.com club is absolutely free and commits you to nothing. If you are not interested in my offer, please excuse this letter; I am sorry to have bothered you. To prevent further unwanted intrusions please click on the following link, your email will be automatically removed from our list. http://www.wine-alley.com/wines/desmail.asp?id=307954&l=uk From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 19:49:06 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:49:06 -0500 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 01:08:13PM -0800 References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 01:08:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > Actually, I remember someone saying during the Parker case that a > government travel office would make all travel and lodging > arrangements. My memory is hazy, but I believe this is correct. The form was for incidentals like cab fare, meals,etc. -Declan From ds2000 at mediaone.net Wed Dec 6 22:00:04 2000 From: ds2000 at mediaone.net (DS) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 00:00:04 -0600 Subject: ip: Guard tapped for infowar duties Message-ID: >From UPI, http://www.vny.com/cf/News/upidetail.cfm?QID=142127 - Guard tapped for infowar duties Wednesday, 6 December 2000 18:39 (ET) Guard tapped for infowar duties By PAMELA HESS WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 (UPI) -- The Pentagon formally tapped the National Guard and reserves to shore up the Defense Department's information warfare apparatus Wednesday, calling for 182 reserve officers and enlisted staff with information technology backgrounds to form five support teams. The teams -- known as "joint reserve information operations and information assurance organizations" -- will be on the Pentagon's front line of information warfare. The Defense Department has had a difficult time keeping highly trained IT specialists when far more lucrative offers abound in the private sector. However, many of those skills are resident in the reserve component, where part-time soldiers work full time in information technology. "Members of the Reserve and National Guard are often way ahead by the very nature of their civilian employment, trained in their workplaces to exploit technology," said Deputy Defense Secretary Rudy DeLeon. Because computer work lends itself to telecommuting, the reserve support groups will not necessarily be physically located near the organizations they support. Computer networks will allow them to carry out their duties at "remote" locations. The teams could take on myriad operations, including enemy computer network attacks, defense of U.S. computer networks, psychological operations, electronic warfare, military deception, operational security, intelligence support, vulnerability assessment, incident response and Web site reviews, according to a Pentagon source. DeLeon approved a plan to establish five teams, beginning in 2001. The teams would encompass up to 600 people by 2007, and would directly support the National Security Agency, the Information Operations Technical Center, both at Ft. Meade, Md; the Defense Information Security Agency and the Joint Task Force for Computer Network Defense, in Arlington, Va.; and the Joint Information Operations Center at Kelly Air Force Base, Texas. -- Copyright 2000 by United Press International. All rights reserved. -- -- Dan S --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Thu Dec 7 00:48:09 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 01:48:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wasn't ssz down a while ago? Helluva choice here: a working deprecated server or a yo-yo non-deprecated one.... On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > toad.com is technicaly deprecated and any current subscribers should move > to one of the alternate servers. The vast majority of discussion does not > get sent to toad.com. There are currently seven servers to choose from. > > One server homepage at, > > http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html > > The current list is focused on cryptography, civil liberties, and > economics. There is quite a bit of secondary chatter on a variety of > topics. Sending viruses, suggesting the list be closed to non-members, > subscribing the list to various sources of spam, asking for bomb info, and > porno being the most popular off-topic topics. The most asked question is > probably "How the hell do I get off this list?" or more accurately > 'unsuvscribe'. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > > > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > > Subject: hi > > > > > > > Daer Reciever... > > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > > that showed that... > > > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > > > thank you > > > Rasha > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email galt at inconnu.isu.edu From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Dec 7 01:59:10 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 01:59:10 -0800 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001207015910.01c8f8f0@idiom.com> At 01:48 AM 12/7/00 -0700, John Galt wrote: >Wasn't ssz down a while ago? Helluva choice here: a working deprecated >server or a yo-yo non-deprecated one.... Some servers do go down on occasion. SSZ had an ISDN widget burn out. Toad.com has been deprecated for several years. Also, it's not the most reliable machine - crackers periodically attack it, and it occasionally has hardware or load problems. There are other machines - cypherpunks-request at cyberpass.net is one of the most-used, and Jim's web pages on SSZ point to the current list of other ones. Thanks! 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Your AdultFriendFinder.com Diva From nytdirect at nytimes.com Thu Dec 7 01:25:11 2000 From: nytdirect at nytimes.com (The New York Times Direct) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 04:25:11 -0500 Subject: Today's Headlines from NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012071045.CAA11236@toad.com> TODAY'S HEADLINES The New York Times on the Web Thursday, December 7, 2000 ------------------------------------------------------------ For news updated throughout the day, visit www.nytimes.com QUOTE OF THE DAY ========================= "We think this generation is wonderful in every way, but we worry that unless something changes, we're going to lose a lot of them." - WILLIAM R. FITZSIMMONS, Harvard dean, on the stress of the college admissions process. Full Story: http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07ADMI.html BUSINESS ========================= Documents on Design of Explorer Reveal a Series of Compromises http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07FORD.html Profit Warning by Bank of America Sets Off Big Retreat http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07STOX.html U.S. Looking at SmithKline Effort to Block Generic Drug http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07DRUG.html Accounting Board Eases Stance on Mergers http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07ACCO.html /--------------------- ADVERTISEMENT ---------------------\ Mark the elections with a presidential screensaver To celebrate the elections, NYTimes.com has created a Presidents screensaver that captures some of history's finest moments from The New York Times Photo Archives. Enjoy these images every day on your PC or Mac, absolutely free. http://www.nytimes.com/partners/screensaver/index.html?ibd \---------------------------------------------------------/ INTERNATIONAL ========================= In Ruined Liberia, Its Despoiler Sits Pretty http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/world/07LIBE.html U.S. Businessman Found Guilty of Espionage by Russian Court http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/world/07RUSS.html Suspect in New Year's Terror Plot Is Arrested in Algeria http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/world/07TERR.html 2 Pro-Democracy Party Leaders Given Prison Sentences in China http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/world/07BEIJ.html NATIONAL ========================= Ease Up, Top Universities Tell Stressed Applicants http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07ADMI.html Waiting for a President, Capital Exults Over Pandas http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07PAND.html Army Corps Falsified Data for a Project, Study Says http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07CORP.html Suspended Rabbi Quits Seminary Presidency http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07RABB.html SPORTS ========================= Knicks No Match as Nelson Ties Auerbach http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/sports/07KNIC.html Nets Stay in Free Fall as Marbury Sits Again http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/sports/07NETS.html A Fullback, but Much, Much More http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/sports/07RHOD.html Memories Are Bitter as Jets Prepare for Raiders http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/sports/07JETS.html TECHNOLOGY ========================= Motorola Deal With Canadian Supplier http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07MOTO.html Big Merger in Net Access for Europe http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/technology/07NET.html Profit Warning by Bank of America Sets Off Big Retreat http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07STOX.html Building the Latin American Internet http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/technology/07DATA.html ARTS ========================= Looking for the Real John Lennon http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/arts/07NOTE.html U2: Divinely and Romantically, Embracing a Higher Love http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/arts/07IRVI.html Restoring Swirling Cloaks and Passion to 'Il Trovatore' http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/arts/07TROV.html Ballet Hispanico: Delving Deftly Into the Life of a Revered Spanish Composer http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/arts/07EYES.html NEW YORK REGION ========================= Hot Economy Cooling Down? Not New York's http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/nyregion/07YORK.html E.P.A. Gives Its Plan on Hudson River PCB's, but a Fight Lies Ahead http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/nyregion/07HUDS.html Giuliani Leads New Effort to Take Control of the Schools http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/nyregion/07MAYO.html Report Finds Police Abuse Unpunished http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/nyregion/07CCRB.html OP-ED COLUMNISTS ========================= By BOB HERBERT: Keep Them Out! The tactics have changed, but the goal remains depressingly the same: Keep the African- Americans out of the voting booths. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/opinion/07HERB.html By WILLIAM SAFIRE: Al Gore Agonistes There are several ways the presidential election can be resolved, and the victor in all of them is Gov. George W. Bush. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/opinion/07SAFI.html HOW TO CHANGE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION ------------------------------------------------------------ You received these headlines because you requested The New York Times Direct e-mail service. To cancel delivery, change delivery options, change your e-mail address or sign up for other newsletters, see http://www.nytimes.com/email HOW TO ADVERTISE ------------------------------------------------------------ For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson Racer at alyson at nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo From freematt at coil.com Thu Dec 7 02:39:35 2000 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 05:39:35 -0500 Subject: Bill Clinton belatedly decides that pot smoking should not be criminal In-Reply-To: References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Tim May wrote: >Instead of pushing for legislation in '93-94, Clinton is now opining >that all of those hundreds of thousands of folks his Drug Warriors >put in in prison maybe shouldn't be there. The US Corrections System currently has 458,000 Drug War Prisoners. Plus the number of people under some form of correctional supervision -- jail, prison, probation, or parole -- has reached a record 6.3 million. Go to the Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) semiannual report on corrections. That report, as well as a treasure trove of related statistics is available online at . Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month) Matthew Gaylor, 1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd., PMB 176, Columbus, OH 43229 (614) 313-5722 Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/ ************************************************************************** From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 05:11:54 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:11:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help In-Reply-To: <002101c05ee8$f2266500$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > Sounds like Stephen King's 'The Plant" All right. > > Question: What has this got to do with a hacking mailing list? Cypherpunks isn't a hacking mailing list. You should get off toad.com, it's a dead site. See, http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 05:15:04 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:15:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A2F5BDC.D17B836A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Ken Brown wrote: > I wonder what they think of Muslim women who go completely veiled? (I > don't know if you have any in Austin but there are quite a few in > London). Can't say. Austin is a very! cosmopolitan town. We've got folks of just about every type. Is your assertion that veiled Muslim women are inherently criminal? Muslim dress isn't very 'ninja' if you think about it at all. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 05:28:36 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:28:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: RIP cracked via encryption? [The Register] Message-ID: Article about RIP being cracked because a mechanism has been found that makes it impossible to hand over keys. http://www.theregister.co.uk ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 05:30:28 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:30:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: US saves Iridium Message-ID: This is on several sites, visit your favorite. Supposedly so people wouldn't be upset by the burn up re-entry. So there's a two year reprieve. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From auto9950013 at hushmail.com Thu Dec 7 04:55:05 2000 From: auto9950013 at hushmail.com (auto9950013 at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:55:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Snow White worm, identified as... Message-ID: <200012071403.GAA13314@user3.hushmail.com> The heavily armed white supremacist, lying, hypocritical, scumbag Tim "I don't hate Jews, but?" May, Spews: >The New Bill may have to modify his new radicalism in light of the >possibility that Algore and his ZOG Veep may manage, through the >cleverness of their shysters, to pull a victory out of the ashes." From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Dec 7 08:49:05 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 08:49:05 -0800 Subject: Bill Clinton belatedly decides that pot smoking should not be criminal In-Reply-To: References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207084259.01ed6a80@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 05:39 AM 12/7/2000 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > The US Corrections System currently has 458,000 Drug War Prisoners. This figure may be a substantial under estimate, for it is fairly common practice in some courts, when someone is charged with a serious victimless illegal act, to offer a plea bargain where he pleads guilty to a crime that in theory supposedly has a victim, despite the absence of any complainant, a crime somehow connected to theft, guns and violence, despite the absence of any specific identifiable person robbed or threatened by these guns or violence. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG IMbO+yh1UkDtUkPKlB6E7DsnRwamnzIDr1j5upMw 4wsWH9+U/GwzrU3OioU3UGXbpCqEEXt4oiSwC3KLT From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Dec 7 08:59:00 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 08:59:00 -0800 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: References: < Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207085447.01e46948@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 10:20 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the > > US? > > > > I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. At 10:25 AM 12/7/2000 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > I would be surprised if you didn't need at least a tax ID number, myself. Many years ago I, as a non resident of the US and non citizen of the US, opened an account in US dollars at a US branch of the bank of America without a social security number or a tax ID number. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG MfEDmSJiMYlcOEQBhlqUxwBSUTHW1kq6y5nnKsOx 4kxay6Xr+ylDqWbjRvUsznWW6aIAzbaL/ZAaLQbk6 From tcmay at got.net Thu Dec 7 09:12:36 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:12:36 -0800 Subject: Tim is innocent was Re: hi In-Reply-To: <20001207102709.A13683@tightrope.demon.co.uk> References: <20001207102709.A13683@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: At 10:27 AM +0000 12/7/00, Steve Mynott wrote: >On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:02:17PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >> Rasha sounds like the typical illiterate student who has to take >> remedial English upon her arrival at Beaver College. I had a roommate >> in college who was one of these types, having to take the equivalent >> of "English for Dummies." He couldn't spell, he couldn't construct a >> sentence, and he couldn't read worth a damn. > >Although I dislike, as ever, Tim's tone in these matters he has, as he >often does, a valid point hidden under his bitterness and his >experience at an American university is similar to my own, more recent, >experiences at English universities. > >In a basic course that purported to teach "economics" (actually a >dumbed down blend of vague sociology and Keynesianism) the majority of >students were foreign and had a poor grasp of the English language. > >The level of debate was poor and the lecturer had an easy job. > >I am not racist against foreign students and think poking fun at poor >English isn't constructive (they generally speak English better than I >speak their own language) but there seems to me something basically >broken about a system which doesn't teach basic English _before_ trying >to teach complex ideas in that language. Nor am I a racist. I don't even believe the concept of "race" is a meaningful one. After all, the latest evidence from mitochondrial DNA studies is that nearly everyone in the world is descended from a group which was in Africa about 50,000 years ago. A mere blink of an eye. However, I believe people and groups of people, through their culture, vary in their approach to education. Few can dispute that Jews are very strongly represented in medicine, law, science, and professions in general...and underrepresented in sports, for example. Few can dispute the opposite about blacks, at least in America. There are well-known _cultural_ reasons for this. Without even giving the ethnic group for these statements, it is obvious which ones they belong to: "My son, the _doctor_." "Books are for whiteys." The role of culture is readily apparent at public libraries in Silicon Valley. Large numbers of Asians, men and women, usually in couples, with large numbers of Asian children hauling armloads of books. And Asian children dominate the science fairs, the engineering programs. (The Vietnamese do especially well. This was noticeable to many of us as early as 1980-83, when the Valedictorians and Salutatorians--the top students--at area high schools were largely "boat people." These BPs had "floated under the Golden Gate Bridge in rafts," as I like to say, and yet several years later they had mastered enough English to dominate their high schools. It was seeing this that finished off any sympathy I had that black and Mexican students were failing because they hadn't mastered English, blah blah blah. I realized it was culture, pressure from parents, and desire to succeed.) One could look at the success of blacks who are from the West Indies, and who tend to be academically-oriented, to see that culture is more important than race. Many blacks from the Dominican Republic, even dirt-poor Haiti, are doctors and lawyers. The issue remains culture. Perhaps a remnant of slavery, perhaps a remnant of the plantation lifetstyle. Whatever. They must change this culture. Whitey and Big Brother can't do it for them. The black family in America is fragmented, drug use is rampant, children are strongly, strongly discouraged by their peers and their mothers (the fathers are absent, in most cases) from academically excelling. A culture of "deliberate slacking," like a union shop that is on a work slowdown. Those who excel, academically, are seen as "white inside" with a variety of deprecating names applied to them. Obviously this is not true in all cases. There are black scientists and black doctors, and there are Jewish tramps and winos, Asian drug dealers. But the "distributions" basically fit what I have described. And many black intellectuals, dismissed by other blacks as Unca Toms and "race traitors," are saying the same thing with increasing concern about their culture. Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, many others. Biologically, it is just plain crazy to think that groups which only recently scattered into Europe, Japan, Australia, and other corners of the world have evolved different brain structures. They haven't. But cultures can change in the blink of an eye, in a few decades. This is what is at issue. Call me a culturalist, but not a racist. Correlation is not causation. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From seanl at literati.org Thu Dec 7 09:15:02 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:15:02 -0800 Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:46:16PM -0600 References: <20001206112313.B3190@makoto.literati.org> Message-ID: <20001207091502.A30601@nietzsche.literati.org> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:46:16PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > > On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Sean R. Lynch wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:19:13AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > [...] > > > It's possession of the private keys that will roast your goose. > > > > Fortunately the public key can be stored using steganography, or on some > > medium that can be physically destroyed, or whatever. > > That sort of destroys the 'public' part of that doesn't it? This takes us > into the "if you've got a channel to send the code on how to decode the > public key, why not send the public key privately? And if the channel is > safe enough to send the key privately why not send the message itself? > > There is also the point that if there is a public key and you claim it > valid then by assumption you're also claiming there is a private key. Eek. Sorry. I meant the private key could be stored steganographically. And the public key need only be attached to your nym. Now the trick is not leaving anything around that might be used to link you to your nym. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/users/seanl/ Key fingerprint = 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 GPG/PGP encrypted/signed email preferred. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Dec 7 06:21:18 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:21:18 -0500 Subject: Report on 50-country cyber crime survey Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001207091330.0280cec0@mail.well.com> Today... COMMERCE The Johns Hopkins University Paul Nitze School of Advanced International Studies +(SAIS) "Global Cyber Crime: Weak Laws Threaten E-Commerce: But Does Euroopean Remedy Go Too Far?" including release of a 50-country survey showing patchwork of outdated and inconsistent laws shielding cyber criminals. Participants: Bruce McConnell, president, McConnell International LLC; Henric Kaspersen, Council of Europ; Jeffrey Pryce, Steptoe & Johnson LLP; and James Dempsey, Center for Democracy and Technology Location: SAIS, Nitze Building, 1740 Massachusetts Ave., NW, Kenney Auditorium. 10:30 a.m. Contact: Felisa Neuringer, 202-663-5626; e-mail, fneuringer at jhu.edu; or http://www.sais-jhu.edu From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 01:37:50 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:37:50 +0000 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3A2F5A6E.75A5A531@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tim May wrote: [...] > (Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that > various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit > travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the Constitution > says citizens must lend money to the government and then petition to > get some of it back later?) The part that lets taxi drivers write you a 25 dollar receipt for a 10 dollar journey. [...] Ken From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 01:43:56 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:43:56 +0000 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A2F5BDC.D17B836A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: [...] > And just about every business > you go into has video gear, some pointed out the door. It's amazing if you > walk around looking for this stuff and keep a list. Anyone doing anything > that might attract uniformed attention should be going the major Ninja > route... I wonder what they think of Muslim women who go completely veiled? (I don't know if you have any in Austin but there are quite a few in London). Ken From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Dec 7 09:45:25 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:45:25 -0800 Subject: RIP cracked via encryption? [The Register] Message-ID: <3A2FCCB5.C6945339@lsil.com> > Article about RIP being cracked because a mechanism has been found that > makes it impossible to hand over keys. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk > MOOT was on cryptome days ago. Also isn't the idea plenty old, EKE for instance? What MOOT seems to be addressing are some of the practical problems of insecure systems in addition to the basic crypto. From tcmay at got.net Thu Dec 7 09:47:18 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:47:18 -0800 Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <0B376C13.1AFD8001.0001028E@netscape.net> References: <0B376C13.1AFD8001.0001028E@netscape.net> Message-ID: At 12:09 PM -0500 12/7/00, MttwF at netscape.net wrote: >Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male >porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to >find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. Officer Matt Frewberg, We are unable to process your request at this time. We are busy here supplying Law Enforcement with the bomb-making information that their supervisor, Sen. Feinstein, has ordered them to find on the Internet. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 07:04:56 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:04:56 -0500 Subject: Frezza: The Internet Vs. Tyranny, and Other Parting Thoughts Message-ID: Wherein Bill Frezza, my only reason for an InternetWeek subscription, signs off. So long, Bill, and thanks for all the fish... :-). Cheers, RAH At 10:08 PM -0700 on 12/6/00, InternetWeek Newsletter wrote: > Opinion: The Internet Vs. Tyranny, And Other Parting Thoughts > > Writing a regular opinion column is an invigorating tonic, a deadline- > disciplined interlude of forced reflection, providing an opportunity > to follow where the muse might lead. With this column, I have tried > to examine the broader impact of Internet technology on business, > public policy and society. My approach has been rooted in the firm > belief that ideas matter and that fundamental principles worked out > long ago can be applied to novel situations to guide us toward > discovering not only what might be but what ought to be. > > Working against the backdrop of a society that has deeply embraced > moral relativism has provided ample opportunity to lay bare the > hypocrisy that permeates both the business and political leadership > of our day. Judging by the mail I've received from so many readers > over the years, this has delighted some and infuriated others, which > was exactly my objective. > > Our industry, the telecommunications industry, and its newborn wonder > child the Internet, are shaking up the world like no revolution > before. Of course there are historical developments that had greater > impact. But none has affected so many people over such a brief > period. And, thanks to the acceleration of events brought about by > the Internet itself, we are all in a position to see the results of > the choices we make, unlike our predecessors who played largely to > posterity. > > Most encouraging, the power to innovate is decentralizing, with the > rewards for success so unabashedly disproportionate that > extraordinary efforts are being called forth from people who might > otherwise be content to lead ordinary lives. Progress has always come > from the motivated few over the objections of the complacent many. > The way these few are treated determines the future. The most > profound contribution of the American experiment to human happiness > is that we have freed the basic impulse for improvement from the > tyranny of hidebound culture. The Internet has become both the source > and the conduit to export our culture of success to the rest of the > planet, smashing ancient chauvinism by exposing one and all to the > Darwinian hurricane. > > Capital has been pried from the grip of those whose main objective > was to preserve it, set loose in a global arena seeking market-driven > returns. Talent has been released from the prison of place to make > contributions far beyond the reach of local customs and constraints. > The price to access knowledge has dropped so precipitously that > anyone can stand on the shoulders of everyone, scaling heights that > would otherwise take lifetimes to achieve. The cost of failure has > been reduced to such acceptable levels that this marvelous teacher > can instruct without maiming, making its students stronger as they > prepare for the next challenge. Coercive force wielded by prince or > mob is receding toward impotency, unable to have its way as the prime > productive asset becomes the power of unfettered minds. > > These are good things to remember as we head into a cyclical economic > downturn. Many will question the value of what has been created. The > reactionaries will preach ruin and the envious will gloat, claiming > the Internet bubble was an aberration. They are wrong. The > businesses, technologies and entrepreneurs that survive the cleansing > fires will form the foundation for the next round of growth. The > failures will be its fertilizer. This is as it should be. Unlike the > Roaring Twenties when the central government was powerful enough to > turn a recession into a protracted depression, today's government is > so palpably broken, careening headlong toward a chronic dysfunctional > state, that it can be discounted. Washington will remain a bleeding > tax on progress, but as a tapeworm rather than a cancer. The > innovators will outrun it, along with its European counterparts who > foolishly believe that coalescing into a single ministerial glob will > assure bureaucratic immortality. > > Thank you, dear readers. It has been a great six years. This is my > last column, at least for the foreseeable future. The press of > business and the closing of our newest venture fund demands my full > attention. I am also deathly afraid that I am becoming a bore, > preaching the same themes in variations that can only be appreciated > by diehard free market capitalists--a misunderstood minority even in > the best of times. Hence until I retire, a good 10 years from now, my > harangues will have to be reserved for my poor dinner companions. > > Happy thoughts for a happy future. Farewell, until we meet again. > --Bill Frezza -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 07:07:17 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:07:17 -0500 Subject: ip: Guard tapped for infowar duties Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Dec 7 07:15:46 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:15:46 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: > Ken Brown[SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] > Jim Choate wrote: > [...] > > And just about every business > > you go into has video gear, some pointed out the door. It's amazing if > you > > walk around looking for this stuff and keep a list. Anyone doing > anything > > that might attract uniformed attention should be going the major Ninja > > route... > > I wonder what they think of Muslim women who go completely veiled? (I > don't know if you have any in Austin but there are quite a few in > London). > > Ken > Many places have 'mask laws' which criminalize the wearing of masks in public. Some times there are exceptions for costume balls, etc, but generally these laws are very selectively enforced. I seem to remember there were some prosecutions in the US in relation to the WTO protests and in London following the May Day protests. Unless there is a specific loophole for Muslim women's veils, I suppose they are technically in violation, but as I said, these laws are hardly ever invoked. If say, there were a rash of terrorist attacks involving veiled persons occured, there'd be crackdown. Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Dec 7 07:20:28 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:20:28 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: > R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:rah at shipwright.com] wrote > You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, > there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security > number to open a bank account.... > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the US? I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. Peter Trei From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 07:25:02 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:25:02 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:20 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the > US? > I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. I would be surprised if you didn't need at least a tax ID number, myself. I'm not sure, because I don't have one, but I think that people with Green Cards have to have Social Security Numbers, right? Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 7 02:27:09 2000 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:27:09 +0000 Subject: Tim is innocent was Re: hi In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:02:17PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001207102709.A13683@tightrope.demon.co.uk> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:02:17PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > > At 7:48 PM -0500 12/6/00, Trei, Peter wrote: [ .. ] > >Anyone else suspect that the original message (from a > >throw-away yahoo account) is a troll, > >and wonder if Tim might have been the author? I have suspected this in the past over some postings but the ip address in the headers looks legit. Received: from [194.170.1.68] by web901.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 $ whois 194.170.1.68 route: 194.170.0.0/16 descr: Emirates Telecommunications Corporation Sheikh Zayed II Street P.O. Box 3838 Abu Dhabi United Arab Emirates > Rasha sounds like the typical illiterate student who has to take > remedial English upon her arrival at Beaver College. I had a roommate > in college who was one of these types, having to take the equivalent > of "English for Dummies." He couldn't spell, he couldn't construct a > sentence, and he couldn't read worth a damn. Although I dislike, as ever, Tim's tone in these matters he has, as he often does, a valid point hidden under his bitterness and his experience at an American university is similar to my own, more recent, experiences at English universities. In a basic course that purported to teach "economics" (actually a dumbed down blend of vague sociology and Keynesianism) the majority of students were foreign and had a poor grasp of the English language. The level of debate was poor and the lecturer had an easy job. I am not racist against foreign students and think poking fun at poor English isn't constructive (they generally speak English better than I speak their own language) but there seems to me something basically broken about a system which doesn't teach basic English _before_ trying to teach complex ideas in that language. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk gravity cannot be held responsible for people falling in love. -- albert einstein From BuyEnterpriseSys at netscape.net Thu Dec 7 07:27:48 2000 From: BuyEnterpriseSys at netscape.net (BuyEnterpriseSys at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:27:48 -0500 Subject: Datamarc- We Buy Surplus Message-ID: <0000440a6033$00005e13$000000c2@63.25.194.88> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3666 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Dec 7 07:29:19 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:29:19 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: Green carders, yes. Visiting foreigners who are not working, not neccesarily. Tourists certainly not. How about if James Higginsbottom opens an account in the London branch of Citibank? Does he need a US SSN to do so? (I don't think so). Can he use the account in the US (I suspect he can). Peter > ---------- > From: R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:rah at shipwright.com] > > At 10:20 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > > > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in > the > > US? > > I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. > > I would be surprised if you didn't need at least a tax ID number, myself. > > I'm not sure, because I don't have one, but I think that people with Green > Cards have to have Social Security Numbers, right? > > Cheers, > RAH > From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 08:08:55 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:08:55 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:29 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > Green carders, yes. Visiting foreigners who are not > working, not neccesarily. Tourists certainly not. > > How about if James Higginsbottom opens an account > in the London branch of Citibank? Does he need a US > SSN to do so? (I don't think so). Can he use the account > in the US (I suspect he can). I think we're wandering off into the weeds a bit here. The London branch of Citibank, is, of course, a bank in the UK, subject to all banking laws there. Our friend above uses his UK account in the US almost certainly at an ATM machine, like I do from my US bank in the UK, and/or credit card, and no other way. You can certainly get a dollar-denominated bank account in London from Citibank, London is the currency capital of the world, but, and on no real data here, I doubt you could write ACH cleared and routed checks through it. NACHA is trying to do this better, but, in general, you need a correspondent relationship, and/or account, or something, at a bank here in order to write checks on that UK account. My original point, possibly taken too literally at the outset here, is that in most jurisdictions it is more or less impossible to get a US bank account without a social security number, especially if you're a US citizen. Duncan Frissell popped up here on cypherpunks with pointers to the odd bank in South Dakota or somewhere, 4 or 5 years ago, where you could get a bank account without a SSN. It was exceptional in its example, and I would doubt it possible even now. I am not, of course, a banking lawyer, but I certainly hang out with enough of those folks these days, I've certainly had enough of this stuff shoved into my head over the years, and, I expect that to get a bank account without a Social Security number in most states of the US, you probably need to prove that you are indeed a foreign national, *and* provide a valid passport as proof of same, and that, frankly, the passport number would be used *somewhere* as a proxy for SSN where possible. There ain't no free lunch as far as identity and book-entry settlement goes, anymore, folks, even in "tax-haven" jurisdictions, as we're now seeing. Modern nation-states have bound up so much of their regulatory and tax structure into book entry settlement, that it is very hard, more probably impossible, to get a bank account in this country without being completely, positively, whatever that means, identified -- biometrically identified, if it were cheap enough, and certainly with a state-issued identification number. To paraphrase Doug Barnes, "and then you go to jail" is the penultimate error-handling step in book-entry settlement. That means that the nation-state gets in your face, and gets your number, end of story. That is a central fact of financial operations won't change until something proves cheaper that book-entry settlement. Which, of course, lots of people on cypherpunks, and elsewhere, are busy working on. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From Frank.Trotter at EVERBANK.com Thu Dec 7 08:40:35 2000 From: Frank.Trotter at EVERBANK.com (Trotter, Frank) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:40:35 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, December 07, 2000 10:09 AM The Following Was Transmitted: > My original point, possibly taken too > literally at the outset here, is that in > most jurisdictions it is more or less > impossible to get a US bank account without > a social security number, It is in fact required of US entities. > I am not, of course, a banking lawyer, but > I certainly hang out with enough of those > folks these days, I've certainly had enough > of this stuff shoved into my head over the years, > and, I expect that to get a bank account > without a Social Security number in most states > of the US, you probably need to prove that you > are indeed a foreign national, *and* provide a > valid passport as proof of same, and that, > frankly, the passport number would be used > *somewhere* as a proxy for SSN where possible. There are two issues here. If you are a non-resident alien (an "NRA" - I've always loved that term) you can sign a W-8 stating that you are an NRA and that you are not required to have a TIN or SSN. That takes care of you from that angle and by definition you don't need a number. The more difficult element is the "know your customer" rule where such a signing doesn't really prove anything. At the end of the day, the bank - and more specifically an individual banker is personally liable (the "banker goes to jail" principal) - is required both to assert that they know the customer and in the event of untoward activity, which is rather broadly defined, report such activity to the authorities if it is discovered or !!! should have been discovered !!! - This latter principal IMO is the one that creates the extreme level of conservative behavior in the US. Personal comments only. ===================== Frank O. Trotter, III President - everbank.com Spank your banker and come on over to http://www.everbank.com everbank is a Division of Wilmington Savings Fund Society, FSB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.2 iQA/AwUBOi+9w6c6Jcu2sioFEQJJTQCgweMpU4qyMn1cDcdh4RCPjazTZVMAnRdP KCE6CTUNoy8UyW+Uw7kpbSe6 =xFsz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From carskar at netsolve.net Thu Dec 7 09:54:22 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:54:22 -0600 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7416@cobra.netsolve.net> Yes, if you receive a subpoena, there will be information with the document that instructs you on how to contact a clerk that will make travel arrangements for you if necessary. The rule here is that they will compensate you, or outright pay for, the cheapest method of transportation. In other words, if it is cheaper to drive, then they will not pay for a ticket. It does not mean that you will be riding in a goat truck or something of that nature. Any additional expenses associated with testifying can be indicated on a form that you will generally receive when you arrive. As for the forty dollars a day, this is true as well. ok, Rush -----Original Message----- From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 3:19 PM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify At 1:08 PM -0800 12/6/00, Tim May wrote: >At 3:52 PM -0500 12/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >>>(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that >>>various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit >>>travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the >>>Constitution says citizens must >> >>Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like >>$25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being >>called to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. > >As I said, it's not my job to buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc. >and then fill out a government form. > >Actually, I remember someone saying during the Parker case that a >government travel office would make all travel and lodging >arrangements. > >Not my job to lend money to the government. > >I'm watching a lawyer on the stand in the Seminole County part of >the rolling trial say that he charges $500 an hour to testify in >court cases. Sounds like a good fee for me to charge. I mis-spoke. He's not a lawyer...he's a statistics professor. Still, sounds like a good fee to charge for my "expert testimony" on Bell's scheme, should it come down to this. --Tim -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3640 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Thu Dec 7 10:03:08 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:03:08 -0600 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7417@cobra.netsolve.net> I was subpoenaed to appear before federal grand jury two days ago, and the server was hanging out on my front porch for quite a while. I had failed to answer the door an hour earlier, and apparently he had just decided to set up camp there (cleverly out of scope of my peep hole) until I stepped out to go to work, which is exactly what happened. When I relayed the story to my boss later, he informed me that having a server camped out on my front porch is a perfectly good reason to call in sick. Heh. Either way, I am now installing a camera out there, because I have learned a lesson about the security of my front porch, and the effectiveness of the peep hole. -----Original Message----- From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 2:53 PM To: Tim May; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify At 11:01 12/6/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >(Of course, _serving me_ is problematic. I had a process server make >several trips out to my semi-rural hilltop home in 1995 before finally >reaching me at home. And that was when I still answering the doorbell. >These days I use my peephole, or a t.v. camera I sometimes have set up. I >doubt a process server could get to me.) When I was served with a subpoena in the CJ Parker trial, I had had a party the night before and let a friend of a friend sleep over in my living room. The process server showed up around 7:30 am the following morning and my houseguest let him into the foyer. Grr. >-- I was surprised to see so many "affidavits" and "interviews" and >"pre-trial statements" from various witnesses in the Parker case. Surely >these people must have known that though their presence could have been >compelled in Washington state, that they had no obligation to sit down >with Federal agents and give interviews! When I was subpoenaed in the Parker trial, I did not give any pre trial statement or affidavits or whatnot. (There's no incentive for me to do so, and presumably little incentive for list members to do so, unless they see it as a way to avoid further involvement.) My lawyer was the person who had contact with DoJ. >(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that various >witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit travel expense >receipts." Is this true? What part of the Constitution says citizens must Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like $25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being called to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. -Declan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3891 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at giganetstore.com Thu Dec 7 04:07:29 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:07:29 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ser=E1_que_o_Pai_Natal_chega_a_tempo_=3F?= Message-ID: <018b029501307c0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em formato HTML, basta clicar aqui . O tempo está a esgotar-se ! Faça as suas compras até ao dia 12 de Dezembro para que o Pai Natal entregue todas as prendas a tempo de serem abertas no dia de Natal. Visite já a nossa Galeria de Prendas e deixe a giganetstore.com ajudá-lo(a) a encontrar a prenda ideal. Temos prendas para todos . Relembramos as nossas condições especiais, válidas só até 12 de Dezembro: -desconto de 5% do valor das suas compras (*) -portes gratuitos E ainda ... um gorro de Pai Natal, grátis, em todas as compras que efectuar até 31 de Dezembro. (*) Este desconto é válido para encomendas efectuadas entre os dias 01 e 12 de Dezembro; para utilizar este valor, bastará na altura do checkout seleccionar a opção de pagamento através de Códigos Promocionais e inserir o seguinte código: 200001121212. Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1605 bytes Desc: not available URL: From MttwF at netscape.net Thu Dec 7 09:09:06 2000 From: MttwF at netscape.net (MttwF at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:09:06 -0500 Subject: nambla Message-ID: <0B376C13.1AFD8001.0001028E@netscape.net> Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 09:16:20 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:16:20 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 70 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Dec 7 12:35:38 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:35:38 -0800 Subject: rijndael question Message-ID: <3A2FF499.F10CF020@lsil.com> On the rijndael page I see this note below the optimized code link : >IMPORTANT NOTE ! This code was written in order to clarify the mathematical >description, and to run the statistical test. Without modification, it should not >be used to encrypt files, or for any other application. What exactly does this mean? The code is not correct and functional? Mike http://www.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/~rijmen/rijndael/ From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 09:59:32 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:59:32 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207085447.01e46948@shell11.ba.best.com> References: < <5.0.2.1.0.20001207085447.01e46948@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: At 8:59 AM -0800 on 12/7/00, James A. Donald wrote: > Many years ago Ah. :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From commerce at home.com Thu Dec 7 10:09:12 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:09:12 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Vogt" [re: Muslim women in vail, uncovering] > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the > "masquerade" is NON optional, and - as I understand it > - they simply can't give in. contrary to all the internet privacy, > where we are unwilling to give in to even more privacy being > taken away, but we CAN if i were to cloak my desire for privacy in the words of the Great Squid, would it be more legitimate? From j.fulton at juno.com Thu Dec 7 13:20:45 2000 From: j.fulton at juno.com (Joel M Fulton) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:20:45 -0800 Subject: nambla Message-ID: <20001207.132113.262.0.j.fulton@juno.com> So....you saw the email address of a *mailing list* at a web site for the North American Man Boy Love Association, but have been, as yet, unable to find any "young male porn sites". Have I got this all right? Apparently the FBI is now accepting Army applicant rejects as employees... On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:09:06 -0500 MttwF at netscape.net writes: > Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male > porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to > find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From forgot at lga2.nytimes.com Thu Dec 7 12:05:49 2000 From: forgot at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:05:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: NYT Account Request Message-ID: <200012072005.PAA07339@web80t.lga2.nytimes.com> You have requested your ID and password for The New York Times on the Web. Please follow the instructions below. If you have any questions or problems, write to forgot at nytimes.com. Please DO NOT REPLY to this message. 1. Please make a note of your subscriber ID: twatsrus0 2. Next, to change the password for this account, using your Web browser go to this unique URL: http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=78688128_17492195 This page will allow you to choose a new password. Make sure you have copied the address EXACTLY as it appears here. (If you're getting an "Error" page, the address was probably entered incorrectly. See "Help With Copying and Pasting" at the bottom of this e-mail.) 3. Follow the instructions on the screen to choose a new password. After you have entered a password you will automatically enter our Web site. The New York Times on the Web Customer Service forgot at nytimes.com ******************** Help With Copying and Pasting 1. Using the mouse, highlight the entire Web address, (e.g. http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=78688128_17492195) shown above in step 2. It's essential to highlight the entire address, even if it extends over two lines. 2. Under the Edit menu at the top of your screen, select "Copy". 3. Go into your Web browser (open it if it's not already opened). 4. Click in the "Netsite" or "Address" bar -- the place in your Web browser where it says what Web address you're currently looking at -- and delete the address that's currently there. 5. In the blank "Netsite" or "Address" bar, paste the address by selecting the "Edit" menu at the top of your screen and choosing "Paste". 6. Press Enter. 7. Follow the instructions to choose a new password. ******************** If you did not request your ID and password for your NYT Web registration, someone has mistakenly entered your e-mail address when requesting their password. Please simply ignore this message, or, if you wish, you may go to the address above to select a new password for your account. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 07:28:29 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 15:28:29 +0000 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A2FAC9D.603564DE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: > Is your assertion that veiled Muslim women are inherently criminal? No, just that you can't tell who is under the buibui by looking at the video. Ken From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Thu Dec 7 15:34:42 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:34:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zionist Entity Tactical Laser Fizzles Message-ID: <200012072334.eB7NYgY12020@artifact.psychedelic.net> It appears that the tactical chemical laser the US has been hoping to deploy to protect the Zionist Entity from rockets launched by Hezbollah guerrillas in southern Lebanon is, in the words of its developers, "not ready for action." http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/international/ap796.htm According to the defense department blurb on the system, called THEL (http://www.smdc.army.mil/FactSheets/THEL.html), the system employs deuterium fluoride as the lasing medium. Since deuterium is somewhat more expensive to produce than ordinary hydrogen, one wonders why the system has been designed to work with deuterium. Is it because the government does not want fuel for it to be easily produced, should the design fall into enemy hands. Or is there some engineering advantage to using deuterium? Does excited deuterium fluoride have some wonderful spectral line in exactly the right place, that pedestrian hydrogen fluoride does not? Any chemical or nuclear engineers here who could answer the question of why deuterium is more desirable? -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From alan at clueserver.org Thu Dec 7 15:58:38 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:58:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Sean R. Lynch wrote: > > > Eek. Sorry. I meant the private key could be stored steganographically. > > And the public key need only be attached to your nym. Now the trick is not > > leaving anything around that might be used to link you to your nym. > > Ah, that makes more sense. Your point is a valid one. This is one of the big problems with PGP currently, BTW. I pointed out a number of years ago that you could get a complete list of all keys (and the nyms they were associated with) without any sort of passphrase. ("pgp -kvv" using the private keyring.) It was shrugged off as no big deal. (This was before Carl Johnson got busted and they used his private key ring to show nym association in just the fashion I described.) This could be prevented by encrypting the keyring, but unless it is built into PGP itself, it is going to make life hard for most people who use PGP front-ends. (I can modify such tools, but most people out there are not programmers.) As for the "concealing of evidence"... We are reaching a point where trying to protect ANYTHING from the prying eyes of the feds will be considered a "crime". Get used to it. You will probably have to break laws to retain any shread of privacy in the future. (Of course, the first rule of not being seen is "Don't Stand Up.".) The way that law enforcement has been approaching things is to look for exceptions where people are able to avoid their grasp and to make laws and/or regs to cover those "loopholes". ("Be thou the loophole in the law.") Any effort to exploit existing loopholes in the law will be seen as intent to break other existing laws. (In order to punish you more effectively.) So, in other words, "You are damned if you do and damned if you don't". alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From declan at well.com Thu Dec 7 13:12:30 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 16:12:30 -0500 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001207161221.0287b600@mail.well.com> >Reply-To: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" > >From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" >To: "Declan McCullagh" >Subject: Release: Democracy or Republic? >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:57:19 -0500 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 > >The Liberty Committee >701 W. Broad Street, Fifth Floor >Falls Church, VA 22046 > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >Thursday, December 07, 2000 >Contact: Kent Snyder, 703-241-1003 >E-mail: kentsnyder at thelibertycommittee.org >Web site: http://www.thelibertycommittee.org > >THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL >COLLEGE SYSTEM SHOULD NOT BE CHANGED. > >House Concurrent Resolution (H.C.R.) 443 was submitted Monday, December >4, 2000 by Representatives Ron Paul (TX), Jack Metcalf (WA), Bob Stump >(AZ), and Mark Sanford (SC) expressing the sense of Congress in >reaffirming the United States of America as a republic. H.C. R. 443 >also reaffirms the electoral college system. > >"I call upon every member of the U.S. House of Representatives to >cosponsor House Concurrent Resolution 443 and ask every citizen to see >that they do," stated Kent Snyder executive director of The Liberty >Committee. He added, "The U.S. is a republic. Our present system of >selecting a president and vice president should remain so our republic >of independent and sovereign states will remain." > >The Liberty Committee is a nationwide, grassroots organization of over >45,000 Americans who are determined to restore the national government >of the United States to its constitutional limitations in order for >liberty to prevail. > >-30- > > From declan at well.com Thu Dec 7 13:23:59 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 16:23:59 -0500 Subject: Hypenated-Americans: For Tim Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001207162348.0150b010@mail.well.com> About the American Hyphen Society The American Hyphen Society is a community-based, not-for-profit, grass-roots conciousness-raising/education-research alliance that seeks to help effectuate the across-the-board self-empowerment of wide-ranging culture-, nationality-, ethnicity-, creed-, gender-, and sexual-orientation-defined identity groups by excising all multiculturally-less-than-sensitive terminology from the English language, and replacing it with counter-hegemonic, cruelty-, gender-, bias-, and, if necessary, content-free speech. The society's motto is "It became necessary to destroy the language in order to save it". Its headquarters are in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 17:07:10 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:07:10 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: <3A279CB6.C57EBE78@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3A279CB6.C57EBE78@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: >(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >economics :-) Even a stopped clock is right twice a day (once if it's military). -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:22:50 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:22:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the "masquerade" > is NON optional, and - as I understand it - they simply can't give in. > contrary to all the internet privacy, where we are unwilling to give in > to even more privacy being taken away, but we CAN (and 99% of your > typical AOL user survey WILL, if they get offered, say, one hour free > surfing). That's a tad misleading. Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy concerns but property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things to those ragheads. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:25:41 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:25:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: <20001207091502.A30601@nietzsche.literati.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Sean R. Lynch wrote: > Eek. Sorry. I meant the private key could be stored steganographically. > And the public key need only be attached to your nym. Now the trick is not > leaving anything around that might be used to link you to your nym. Ah, that makes more sense. Your point is a valid one. I was thinking about this and the article about the RIP hack with these 'hidden' keys that supposedly can't be grabbed. If this works it might also resolve the CFS pass-phrase issue at reboots. This potentially opens up having a fully encrypted filesystem that could only be brute forced. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:29:14 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:29:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: RIP cracked via encryption? [The Register] In-Reply-To: <3A2FCCB5.C6945339@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > MOOT was on cryptome days ago. Then whomever runs it must have been asleep, again. > Also isn't the idea plenty old, EKE for instance? Everything is old, we just keep rediscovering it. > What MOOT seems to be addressing are some of the practical problems of > insecure systems in addition to the basic crypto. The point being if it really makes grabbing the real keys impossible then it is different than anything that's come before. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:34:44 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:34:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7417@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > I was subpoenaed to appear before federal grand jury two days ago, and > the server was hanging out on my front porch for quite a while. I had failed > to answer the door an hour earlier, and apparently he had just decided to > set up camp there (cleverly out of scope of my peep hole) until I stepped > out to go to work, which is exactly what happened. When I relayed the story > to my boss later, he informed me that having a server camped out on my front > porch is a perfectly good reason to call in sick. Heh. Either way, I am now > installing a camera out there, because I have learned a lesson about the > security of my front porch, and the effectiveness of the peep hole. Call in sick and then stand at the window making funny faces at him and when you get tired tell him to egress your property. If they don't leave call the cops and report a tresspasser. A subpoena is not a search warrant. Then at least you don't have to worry about them camping out on your property. Also consider getting a dog. I prefer wolf hybrids because they alert much quicker than 'domestic' dogs (there is no genetic difference between that wolf and your chihuahua, sort of like Tims point about 'races'. Hell, we're all black under UV). They're not very good at confrontational sorts of things however so the odds of them actually biting anyone are pretty low. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 14:34:53 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:34:53 -0500 Subject: An Internet Bearer Bibliography Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 5349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:36:28 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:36:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001207161221.0287b600@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" > >THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL A republic is a form of democracy, a representative one. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Thu Dec 7 17:36:49 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 17:36:49 -0800 Subject: Zionist Entity Tactical Laser Fizzles In-Reply-To: <200012072334.eB7NYgY12020@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001207172049.052d1730@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:34 PM 12/7/00 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: >It appears that the tactical chemical laser the US has been hoping to >deploy to protect the Zionist Entity from rockets launched by Hezbollah >guerrillas in southern Lebanon is, in the words of its developers, "not >ready for action." > >http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/international/ap796.htm > >According to the defense department blurb on the system, called THEL >(http://www.smdc.army.mil/FactSheets/THEL.html), the system employs >deuterium fluoride as the lasing medium. > >Since deuterium is somewhat more expensive to produce than ordinary >hydrogen, one wonders why the system has been designed to work with >deuterium. Is it because the government does not want fuel for it to be >easily produced, should the design fall into enemy hands. > >Or is there some engineering advantage to using deuterium? Does excited >deuterium fluoride have some wonderful spectral line in exactly the right >place, that pedestrian hydrogen fluoride does not? > >Any chemical or nuclear engineers here who could answer the question >of why deuterium is more desirable? That's exactly it. Deuterium-Flourine (and I think Deuterium-Iodine) have a prominent emission line which matches up nicely with CO2. In practice, the DeF/DeI are hypergolically combined in the combustion chamber (that is they combust immediately upon contact) producing an impressive power output. Somewhere inside or just outside the nozzle CO2 is injected and turbulently mixed. Two parallel mirrors perpendicular to the exhaust lase the pumped up C02 and other (tracking) mirrors direct it to the target. Unlike most other high power lasers these babies are CW, not pulsed, and capable of generating multi-megawatt beams. (They work exceptionally well in space if you can keep the fuel/oxidizer from leaking and make sure the exhaust doesn't dissolve the weapon) This was a major Naval project when I worked at TRW in the 80s called Mid-Infrared Advanced Chemical Laser (MIRACL) See http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/launches/laser_shootdown_000926.html or search under "TRW chemical laser" steve -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2618 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mcbride at countersiege.com Thu Dec 7 14:38:43 2000 From: mcbride at countersiege.com (Ryan McBride) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:38:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: rijndael question In-Reply-To: <3A2FF499.F10CF020@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > On the rijndael page I see this note below the optimized code link : > > > IMPORTANT NOTE ! This code was written in order to clarify the > > mathematical description, and to run the statistical test. Without > > modification, it should not be used to encrypt files, > or for any other application. > > What exactly does this mean? The code is not correct and functional? Functional code isn't secure. Correct code doesn't exist.* This probably means that the code does not check for buffer overflows and other bad programming, or that it has not been audited for security holes. -Ryan * except as a platonic ideal -- Ryan McBride - mcbride at countersiege.com Systems Security Consultant Countersiege Systems Corporation - http://www.countersiege.com From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 17:39:29 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:39:29 -0800 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: Mr. May said: >At 2:27 PM -0500 12/3/00, Adam Langley wrote: >>Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:UK Govt seeks to capture and st >>(MiME/CSOm) (0000F86A) > >This is really getting out of hand! Attempting to open this message, >by clicking on the attachment, bombs/crashes my Eudora Pro 5.0.1 >mailer. Repeatedly--I tried 4 times. Works fine on Macintosh Eudora 4.3.2 with the PGP plug in. Maybe Eudora broke the Plugin? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Thu Dec 7 15:42:17 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 17:42:17 -0600 Subject: openpgp.net down? Message-ID: <3A302056.F3C74E32@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Anybody know what happened to openpgp.net? I haven't had a cpunks post since last night. From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 17:43:13 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:43:13 -0800 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: Wahby (WABI?) wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Tim May wrote: >> If messages are signed, great care should be taken to ensure that the >> signatures do not in any way interfere with the normal presentation >> of good old ASCII text, the lingua franca of the online world. > >The problem you're seeing arises because your mailer and others like >it (Outlook, etc.) do not follow the PGP/MIME standard (RFC 2015, >Oct. 1996), which calls for the support of the content-types >application/pgp-encrypted, application/pgp-signature, and >application/pgp-keys. Unfortunately, many of us use mailers that make >some attempt at supporting standards, and in the end you just can't >read our mail. Langley's pgp message has the following headers: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FCuugMFkClbJLl1L" Yours comes through as Content-Type: text/plain His activates the PGP plugin on my installation of Eudora. > >There is at least some blame to be placed with the people who came up >with these standards. A lack of backwards-compatibility is almost >always a recipie for disaster, especially because of the sheer number >of mail programs available. Fortunately, I'm using an open-source >mail client, so I'm not stuck with unsupported standards. :-) Of course, it doesn't play well with others, but that's common. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From schear at lvcm.com Thu Dec 7 17:50:32 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 17:50:32 -0800 Subject: Zionist Entity Tactical Laser Fizzles In-Reply-To: <200012072334.eB7NYgY12020@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001207174849.052dbb10@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:34 PM 12/7/00 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: I must have been mistaken, according to the material at http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/asat/miracl.htm no CO2 is employed, rather "a fuel (ethylene, C2H4) is burned with an oxidizer (nitrogen trifluoride, NF3). Free, excited fluorine atoms are one of the combustion products. Just downstream from the combustor, deuterium and helium are injected into the exhaust. Deuterium combines with the excited fluorine to give excited deuterium fluoride (DF) molecules, while the helium stabilizes the reaction and controls the temperature. The laser's resonator mirrors are wrapped around the excited exhaust gas and optical energy is extracted. The cavity is actively cooled and can be run until the fuel supply is exhausted. The laser's output power can be varied over a wide range by altering the fuel flow rates and mixture/" steve From seanl at literati.org Thu Dec 7 17:58:18 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:58:18 -0800 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:39:29PM -0800 References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: <20001207175817.B5473@makoto.literati.org> On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:39:29PM -0800, petro wrote: > Mr. May said: > >At 2:27 PM -0500 12/3/00, Adam Langley wrote: > >>Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:UK Govt seeks to capture and st > >>(MiME/CSOm) (0000F86A) > > > >This is really getting out of hand! Attempting to open this message, > >by clicking on the attachment, bombs/crashes my Eudora Pro 5.0.1 > >mailer. Repeatedly--I tried 4 times. [...] Also, since when is crashing a proper response to *any* email message? I don't think you have the PGP/MIME-using people to blame, nor should we be expected to fix your lousy email program. I can understand people's desire to be able to read messages, but even if your MUA does not support MIME, if you look at this message in plain text you can read it without any sort of formatting problems. Only mailers that have incorrect MIME support will have problems with it, and that's simply not any of our problem. ASCII plain text *is* The Way. But guess what, PGP/MIME *is* plain text. You can even parse it with your eyeballs. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/~seanl/ "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem!" -Ronald Reagan, 1984 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ricardo.de Thu Dec 7 09:02:20 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:02:20 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > Many places have 'mask laws' which criminalize the wearing of masks > in public. Some times there are exceptions for costume balls, etc, but > generally these laws are very selectively enforced. I seem to remember > there were some prosecutions in the US in relation to the WTO protests > and in London following the May Day protests. > > Unless there is a specific loophole for Muslim women's veils, I suppose > they are technically in violation, but as I said, these laws are hardly > ever invoked. If say, there were a rash of terrorist attacks involving > veiled > persons occured, there'd be crackdown. that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the "masquerade" is NON optional, and - as I understand it - they simply can't give in. contrary to all the internet privacy, where we are unwilling to give in to even more privacy being taken away, but we CAN (and 99% of your typical AOL user survey WILL, if they get offered, say, one hour free surfing). From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 16:03:22 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:03:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: openpgp.net down? In-Reply-To: <3A302056.F3C74E32@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Anybody know what happened to openpgp.net? I haven't had a cpunks post > since last night. I've gotten some bounces from whgiii at openpgp.net as well. They seem to have stopped sometime yesterday. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tom at ricardo.de Thu Dec 7 09:05:45 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:05:45 +0100 Subject: Knowing your customer References: Message-ID: <3A2FC369.A87D3E97@ricardo.de> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:rah at shipwright.com] wrote > > You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, > > there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security > > number to open a bank account.... > > > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the > US? > I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. I guess an equivalent ID will do. in germany, you need your ID card to open a bank account (um, for those not in the know: we have state-issue ID cards in addition to passports. the passport is a travel document, used to visit non-EU countries. the ID card is used inside the EU and for national purposes (identification, mostly). you are NOT required to have it with you all the time or somesuch, but some activities, such as opening a bank account, require an ID card. driving license or other documents will do in many cases, but I think not for bank accounts). From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 18:51:48 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:51:48 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mr. May: >Frankly, the PGP community veered off the track toward crapola about >standards, escrow, etc., instead of concentrating on the core >issues. PGP as text is a solved problem. The rest of the story is to >ensure that pass phrases and keys are not black-bagged. > >Forget fancy GUIs, forget standards...concentrate on the real threat model. What is the real threat model? Everybody has different worries. I'm not a bookie, I don't do work for the mob, I don't spend more than I earn. My biggest threat is (1) financial (stolen credit card numbers, or other form of credential fraud) (2) Political--that comments here and other places get me the list of "People To Take Care Of Later". The first threat can be dealt with by "cheap" crypto deployed everywhere--to co-opt one of RAH's phrases--a "Geodesicly encrypted network. In a network where every single stinking bit on the wire is encrypted at as many layers as possible, even with "10 cent" crypto will virtually eliminate (by making it more expensive) many of the low level financial threats. Yes, big banks and large financial institutions need stronger crypto, but they can multiple-encrypt, write their own protocols etc.). The second threat would be made much harder by the encrypt everything all the time type of network, if I weren't so thick headed as to insist on using my Real Name. This is presumably what the "PGP Community" veered off towards. Unfortunately, they've done a half-assed job so far. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 18:52:17 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:52:17 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: >At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >> >>An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >>to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. > >A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. > >Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? > >As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services >in large cities. How do you know they don't? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From ulf at fitug.de Thu Dec 7 17:16:43 2000 From: ulf at fitug.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ulf_M=F6ller?=) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:16:43 -0500 Subject: An Internet Bearer Bibliography In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:34:53PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001207201642.A1829@rho.invalid> On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:34:53PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Probably I'd start out with Schneier's Applied Cryptography, making a > beeline for the digital cash section. I've heard that the pros now use > the CRC handbook of crypto, but this is the one I read first, when it > came out in 1994 or so. It's the closest thing cypherpunks have to a Boy > Scout Handbook. I would recommend the HAC as a reference and something else as an introduction (my favorite is "Decrypted Secrets" by F.L. Bauer, but there are lots of good books). Schneier is a bit of both, but not particularly good at either. Peter Wayner wrote a book about digital cash a couple of years ago. > For politics, I'd go read David Freidman, son of Milton, well-known > law-and-economic professor and anarcho-capitalist. "The Machinery of > Freedom" is a good start, because his thesis there is that we really > don't need the nation-state for much. It's a pre-crypto book, > 1970-something, and now that we think we know how to get there from here, Friedman's "Hidden Order" is interesting. It includes many of the ideas from the Machinery of Freedom in a newer form, and I suppose it is a pretty good start for learning about economics. On the fiction side, there is Neal Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon". E-cash, data havens and all that... From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Thu Dec 7 19:18:13 2000 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:18:13 -0700 Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing Message-ID: By Mary Mosquera, TechWeb News Dec 7, 2000 (6:02 AM) URL: http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20001207S0002 WASHINGTON -- The issue of privacy is growing increasingly complex as Americans express concern over abuse of their personal data -- yet still support institutions that handle their information. In a new survey of privacy and protection, an inevitable paradox emerges: While most Americans support the free flow of information from public records, they are concerned about their privacy in some instances when personal information is extracted from those records, a recent survey showed. Consumers are accepting that commercial companies supply background information on them from public records. Still, they said, it must be for a valid social or legal purpose, such as for employment or law enforcement. And protections against misuse must be in place, according to the survey, Public Records and the Responsible Use of Information. More Americans are concerned about privacy than in the past, but they take a more balanced view now, said Alan Westin, president of Privacy and American Business, which conducted the survey with ORC International. "More of those now registering concern fall into 'privacy pragmatist' rather than the 'privacy fundamentalist' camp," Westin said. That more balanced outlook contributes to the broad support for commercial access to personal information from public records. And the focus on information gathering over the Internet by millions of Net users has fostered consumers accepting commercial access to their information, Westin said. How to balance good privacy policies and social values served by disseminating public-record information is an important issue in an era when abuse of that information, especially over the Internet, has led to fraud and identity theft. The 1,000 adults surveyed found it acceptable if companies provided personal information for law enforcement, such as past or present fraudulent conduct or criminal convictions, or for hiring. Using public records to locate a current residence or work address was the least acceptable service, unless it was for law enforcement, potential employers, or consumer credit companies. Those polled thought it acceptable, but less so, for private investigators and ordinary citizens to access public records for background and location information, the report said. Consumers strongly oppose the government posting personally identified public information on the Internet. "However, opposition fades when specific safeguards are introduced," the report said. Safeguards included the government requiring the consent of the individual before displaying a public record file on the Internet and demanding a specific, legitimate purpose from a user before allowing their access. "Sensitive personal information, such as Social Security numbers or medical conditions, were removed prior to displaying the public record on the Internet," the report said. The sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet is a source of privacy abuse and identity theft. "Regulating the purchase and sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet won't come overnight," said Ron Plesser, a partner at Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolfe, Washington. "It's a challenge for industry how to use Social Security numbers properly." From Kareand at aol.com Thu Dec 7 17:44:05 2000 From: Kareand at aol.com (Kareand at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:44:05 EST Subject: gut instincts experts can offer customer-attracting tips at your meeting Message-ID: <6d.c8128f9.276196e5@aol.com> California Gift Show presenter, Kare Anderson, can offer you a double header: two programs : 1. for your show attendees to learn customer-attracting tips to increase per-customer buying and bragging rights (Coming Back to Our Senses: Make Your Store More Memorable) and 2. same-day program for exhibitors (How to Move More Prospects Closer to Biuying: 30 tips in 40 Minutes) for a single fee. See her Jan. 21st program for CGS at http://www.californiagiftshow.com/cgs2/Seminars&Events/seminars/memorable.html and contact us to explore how she can add an exciting day of seminars and consulting for your conference Wed be honored to work with you! cordially, Meg Wheeler, Outreach Coordinator Say It Better Center~ The Compelling Communications Group 15 Sausalito Blvd., Sausalito, California 94965-2464 415/331-6336 ~ Fax 415/331-6661 kareand at aol.com ~ www.sayitbetter.com ~~~~~ Kare Andersonis a Say It Better speaker and columnist who also coaches executives, pro athletes, government leaders on how to become the unforgettable "face" of their organization. Shes an Emmy-winning former TV commentator and Wall Street Journal reporter who co-founded a strategic communication and branding consulting firm a decade ago. Kares designed 48 cross-promotion campaigns and coached 18 start-ups that successfully went public with their stories -- and are still thriving. Her clients are as diverse as Museum Store Managers Asn., Olive Garden Restaurants, Moscone Center, CNN, Nordstroms and Merck. She's a columnist in 98 monthly magazines, from Gourmet Retailer to Broadcast Engineering. Her firm publishes the "Say It Better" online newsletter now read by over 17,000 people in 32 countries. As David Rockefeller Jr. said after hearing Kare speak, She will forever change how you see yourself and your world. From nobody at dizum.com Thu Dec 7 12:00:04 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:00:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: Tom Vogt wrote: > I guess an equivalent ID will do. in germany, you need your ID card to > open a bank account (um, for those not in the know: we have state-issue > ID cards in addition to passports. the passport is a travel document, > used to visit non-EU countries. the ID card is used inside the EU and > for national purposes (identification, mostly). you are NOT required to > have it with you all the time or somesuch, but some activities, such as > opening a bank account, require an ID card. driving license or other > documents will do in many cases, but I think not for bank accounts). How often must your ID card be renewed? What information does it (or the ID database) contain that a German passport does not? From nobody at dizum.com Thu Dec 7 12:00:20 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:00:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: <6fc82ad1a7827c7a99cbd02c1f27c53e@dizum.com> R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Duncan Frissell popped up here on cypherpunks with pointers to the odd > bank in South Dakota or somewhere, 4 or 5 years ago, where you could get > a bank account without a SSN. It was exceptional in its example, and I > would doubt it possible even now. ... Has anyone recently attempted to open a non-interest bearing checking account without giving out an SSAN? What possible rationale (aside from "bank policy," "identification when you lose your passbook," "it's easier for us this way," or "the computer won't let us do that") could a bank (or the fedgov) have for requiring social security account numbers on such accounts? From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Thu Dec 7 22:23:36 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:23:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <20001207.132113.262.0.j.fulton@juno.com> from "Joel M Fulton" at Dec 07, 2000 01:20:45 PM Message-ID: <200012080623.eB86Nau12743@artifact.psychedelic.net> > Apparently the FBI is now accepting Army applicant rejects as > employees... > On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:09:06 -0500 MttwF at netscape.net writes: > > Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male > > porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to > > find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. Either that, or Jeff Gordon has decided he likes little boys. :) -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 20:10:29 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:10:29 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 6:52 PM -0800 on 12/7/00, petro wrote: >>At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >>> >>>An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >>>to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. >> >>A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. >> >>Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? >> >>As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services >>in large cities. > > How do you know they don't? Watch your attributions. I didn't say the above... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From dorr at asc.upenn.edu Thu Dec 7 22:00:25 2000 From: dorr at asc.upenn.edu (Daniel Orr) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 01:00:25 -0500 Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing Message-ID: This article is nothing more than a PR piece. Ronald Plesser, quoted at the end of the article, is an attorney for the Individual Reference Services group. You may remember the group as among the most vocal defenders of Lexis-Nexis when LN was going to sell social security numbers via it PTRAK service. Lexis is one of their members. Westin, the academic who ran the survey, is less than loved among many privacy advocates. I don't know the guy. He's probably on this listserv somewhere. This whole "broad support for commercial access to personal information from public records" thing is probably a response to the LAPD v. King and Condon v. Reno decisions issued by the Supreme Court last year. The former upheld a CA law which excluded access to public records for marketing purposes, the industry's primary source of such info. Further it said marketers and journalists are not the same (something I'm sure Declan was tremendously relieved to hear.) The latter (as most people on this group probably know) upheld the Driver's Privacy Protection Act, ruling that the Federal goverment can restrict states from selling driver info and regulate the exchange of personal info within the commerce clause and without violating the tenth amendment. I suspect the Direct Marketing Association, IRSG, and friends are getting a little nervous Congress might actually act. Also, note the total absence of response from any actual privacy group such as EPIC or Junkbusters, something a balanced piece wouldn't omit. Did I say PR piece? Yeah, it's a piece all right... -----Original Message----- From: Anonymous To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Sent: 12/7/00 10:18 PM Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing By Mary Mosquera, TechWeb News Dec 7, 2000 (6:02 AM) URL: http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20001207S0002 WASHINGTON -- The issue of privacy is growing increasingly complex as Americans express concern over abuse of their personal data -- yet still support institutions that handle their information. In a new survey of privacy and protection, an inevitable paradox emerges: While most Americans support the free flow of information from public records, they are concerned about their privacy in some instances when personal information is extracted from those records, a recent survey showed. Consumers are accepting that commercial companies supply background information on them from public records. Still, they said, it must be for a valid social or legal purpose, such as for employment or law enforcement. And protections against misuse must be in place, according to the survey, Public Records and the Responsible Use of Information. More Americans are concerned about privacy than in the past, but they take a more balanced view now, said Alan Westin, president of Privacy and American Business, which conducted the survey with ORC International. "More of those now registering concern fall into 'privacy pragmatist' rather than the 'privacy fundamentalist' camp," Westin said. That more balanced outlook contributes to the broad support for commercial access to personal information from public records. And the focus on information gathering over the Internet by millions of Net users has fostered consumers accepting commercial access to their information, Westin said. How to balance good privacy policies and social values served by disseminating public-record information is an important issue in an era when abuse of that information, especially over the Internet, has led to fraud and identity theft. The 1,000 adults surveyed found it acceptable if companies provided personal information for law enforcement, such as past or present fraudulent conduct or criminal convictions, or for hiring. Using public records to locate a current residence or work address was the least acceptable service, unless it was for law enforcement, potential employers, or consumer credit companies. Those polled thought it acceptable, but less so, for private investigators and ordinary citizens to access public records for background and location information, the report said. Consumers strongly oppose the government posting personally identified public information on the Internet. "However, opposition fades when specific safeguards are introduced," the report said. Safeguards included the government requiring the consent of the individual before displaying a public record file on the Internet and demanding a specific, legitimate purpose from a user before allowing their access. "Sensitive personal information, such as Social Security numbers or medical conditions, were removed prior to displaying the public record on the Internet," the report said. The sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet is a source of privacy abuse and identity theft. "Regulating the purchase and sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet won't come overnight," said Ron Plesser, a partner at Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolfe, Washington. "It's a challenge for industry how to use Social Security numbers properly." From baptista at pccf.net Thu Dec 7 22:38:05 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 01:38:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <200012080623.eB86Nau12743@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: What I find most annoying about police entrapment is the damage to children these police offers are responsible for. Bob Matthews who heads up the anti child porn squad in ontario spends most of his days raiding the homes of potential child molesters who turn out to be kids. Alot of kids pretend to be much older when online and they end up being targeted by these perverted law enforment twits who end up sending them filth and effectively convencing our kids that this sort of thing is good. They are becoming the problem. On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > > > Apparently the FBI is now accepting Army applicant rejects as > > employees... > > > On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:09:06 -0500 MttwF at netscape.net writes: > > > Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male > > > porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to > > > find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. > > Either that, or Jeff Gordon has decided he likes little boys. :) > > -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From carlstephen33 at writeme.com Thu Dec 7 14:11:33 2000 From: carlstephen33 at writeme.com (carlstephen33 at writeme.com) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 06:11:33 +0800 (CST) Subject: [#1] Message-ID: <200012072211.GAA38199@ns1.capita.org> NEW AND EXCITING!! http://3506561041/iindex22/legal.html This Is A Weekly Mail List. To Be Removed Permanently Email permenentremoval at excite.com with "remove" somewhere in the subject line. PERMANENT REMOVAL!! From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 05:17:36 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:17:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A30D92B.330DE7F0@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > I didn't say they are veiled because they value privacy, did I? nope, I > didn't. stop reading into my words and start reading the words > themselves. thank you. I didn't say you did. I DID say your statement was misleading because it only mentions privacy. That isn't the only issue with your example. As a result, it's a weak argument. As usual, you pick an example, it has a couple of nit picks you skipped or thought unimportant, and you get all defensive when they're pointed out. Almost like you're still searching for Mr. Goodbar still... Pick your examples more carefully and explain them a bit more carefully and you won't have this problem. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 8 08:46:53 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:46:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, petro wrote: >Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: > >>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >>economics :-) Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same way? Bear From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 8 06:07:38 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:07:38 -0500 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/8/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/8/00, BNA Highlights wrote: > THOUGH TECHNOLOGY MIGHT HELP PRIVACY > A meeting of business leaders in Redmond, Washington led to > a frank debate over the insufficiency of North American > action on consumer privacy and the potential for technology > to play a key role in protecting such privacy. For example, > Bill Gates announced that the next version of IE would > better allow consumers to ascertain Web site privacy > policies. > http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/technology/08SECU.html -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Dec 8 09:23:53 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 09:23:53 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A30DFF2.4783A4DB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Jim Choate wrote: > > Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy concerns but > > property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things to > > those ragheads. Ken Brown wrote: > Jim is turning in to Tim... When Jews are murdering small children in reprisals against stone throwing by young men, and Arabs are blowing up school buses, then anti semitic statements against both Arabs and Jews become legitimate, indeed required. Are you an anti semite, or are you indifferent to the murder of children. Choose one. Yes, Virginia, not only are there individual evil people, but there are entire evil nations that demand and expect that their members do evil things, a demand widely supported and forcefully encouraged by the people of that nation. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG N6hvr8nWXopwCzktuWlQMZpBXyVkyyohyyGfxxcd 4aXcdw/9Raf7wyVHdrlnGQGeL79UzvNj/vRMzjF+p From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 09:45:57 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:45:57 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 1:41 PM +0100 12/8/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >Me wrote: In English it is preferable to write "I wrote," though "Me wrote" is honored in some subcultures. > > > if i were to cloak my desire for privacy in the words of the >> Great Squid, would it be more legitimate? > >does it matter? > >the point is that almost everyone even here is not willing to go to jail >or worse for "another tiny bit of privacy". we don't draw a sharp >boundary. we don't say, for example, that knowing my street is ok, but >knowing my house number is over the line. >and the total population is even worse. the vast majority of internet >users would give you pretty much anything for a minimal return ("one >hour free surfing"), and everything else for a larger one ("$100 for my >political and sexual preferences? sure.") > >the muslim veil, on the other hand, IS a sharp boundary. as I understand >it, it is NOT permisable to lift it in public under ANY circumstances. Me was making a different point, that presumably there is no legal distinction, at least in America, between the religion of Islam and the religion of the Great Squid. As to your language about "it is NOT permissable ...under ANY circumstances," there are many religious beliefs which are overruled by law in the U.S. Mormon polygamy (several spouses), for example. Peyote rituals, for another example. Though there are some "variations in regulations" allowable for various religions, such as rules about wearing hats in military services, etc., there is a very general principle in the U.S. which says that the law applies equally to all, regardless of religious beliefs. (This is a major reason for having a minimal state, with the set of laws only being the "Schelling points" (a game theory term many of us like to use) which nearly all persons can agree to.) The Great Squid has equal standing with Mohammed, in other words. Things are dramatically different in Germany and other countries, we all understand. But in the U.S., no particular religion is supposed to have any special favor in the eyes of the law. There are even Satanist chaplains/priests in the U.S. armed services. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 10:02:03 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:02:03 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:46 AM -0800 12/8/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, petro wrote: > >>Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: >> >>>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >>>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >>>economics :-) > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? > >Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here >as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art >for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same >way? > Distributed, fractal, peer-to-peer, nonhierarchical, geodesic, silk road, agoric, anarchic, are all terms basically describing the same sort of thing. Which term is whizzier is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I got tired several years ago of hearing everything described as a "fractal geodesic network." I don't know whether the term was coined by its chief user, Bob Hettinga, or by a similar propagandist, George Gilder, or by someone else. The naming issues are parallel to the issues with "open systems," "bazaar and the cathedral," etc. But I imagine others are tired of hearing me talk about crypto anarchy. I'm not sure "geodesic" captures the important issues. Are merchants in a Baghdad bazaar part of a "fractal geodesic network"? I suppose. But this is just a basic open market, with no top-down rules set. Is the Law Merchant a fractal geodesic network? Whatever. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Dec 8 07:10:35 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:10:35 -0500 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Message-ID: > Tom Vogt[SMTP:tom at ricardo.de] > > the muslim veil, on the other hand, IS a sharp boundary. as I understand > it, it is NOT permisable to lift it in public under ANY circumstances. > > rounding that up, I'd guess that if we were religious about our privacy, > things may be different (possibly just more ugly, but who knows). > Be careful about making sweeping generalizations about Islamic cultures; they vary almost as much as Christian and Jewish ones. While female modesty is a widely practiced virtue, it's implementation covers a wide range, from all-encompassing covering to a simple head scarf. Jim claims it has to do with 'property rights' the husband has in the wife. This really applies more to purdah, the practice of isolating women from society as a whole, or allowing them to contact non-family males only under carefully chaperoned situations. While veiling has some application to this, it is more done to prevent inciting male lust. If you grew up in a place where the only women you saw were either relatives, or completely veiled, a bare face or a 'glimpse of stocking' would be quite exciting. I've read articles written by Western women who have lived in countries where women were required to veil completely. Some of them actually came to rather like it - under the veil they had privacy - no one could mark them as a foreigner, they could come and go anywhere as easily as a native. Underneath they could dress for comfort, not style or appearance. They felt safer. Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Dec 8 07:14:55 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:14:55 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Sean R. Lynch[SMTP:seanl at literati.org] > Reply To: Sean R. Lynch > Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 8:58 PM > To: petro > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand > > <> > > Sean writes: >ASCII plain text *is* The Way. But guess what, PGP/MIME *is* plain text. >You can even parse it with your eyeballs. Sean: Guess what: Your message comes as an attachment, which I have to open seperately. Peter From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 10:52:19 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:52:19 -0800 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! Message-ID: [cryptography at c2.net removed from the distribution list. They claimed not to want any politics discussion, and they are a closed list, so why is political discussion going to it?] At 11:50 AM -0500 12/8/00, Adam Shostack wrote: >On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:07:38AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >| >| At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/8/00, BNA Highlights wrote: >| >| >| > THOUGH TECHNOLOGY MIGHT HELP PRIVACY >| > A meeting of business leaders in Redmond, Washington led to >| > a frank debate over the insufficiency of North American >| > action on consumer privacy and the potential for technology >| > to play a key role in protecting such privacy. For example, >| > Bill Gates announced that the next version of IE would >| > better allow consumers to ascertain Web site privacy >| > policies. >| > http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/technology/08SECU.html > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20001207/tc/forrester_exec_injects_security_summit_with_harsh_truths_1.html > >REDMOND, Wash. -- Just a few hours after Bill Gates opened Microsoft >Corp.'s (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) SafeNet 2000 security summit here >Thursday on an optimistic note, Forrester Research Inc.'s (Nasdaq:FORR >- news) John McCarthy blew it all up. I read the article (thanks for the URL). Nothing new, and, in fact, several of the old chestnuts about why regulation is needed. The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But the irony of juxtaposing Firestone and "customers dislike tracking" is delicious indeed! It is the existence of customer records--generally voluntarily provided by the customer--that allowed Firestone and Ford to contact hundreds of thousands of Explorer owners. I wonder if the author appreciates the irony here? All of this folderol about laws being needed to control privacy must be fought at every stage. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From boo at datashopper.dk Fri Dec 8 02:12:22 2000 From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:12:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: Denmark, update on Echelon Message-ID: Hi Just a short notice on the Echelon-discussion in Denmark The danish parliament Folketinget has declined to aid the EU committee which is investigating Echelon. The EU committee formally contacted the head of the parliaments permanent select committee for controlling the intelligence-services -- in danish: kontroludvalget for efterretningstjenesterne -- asking for information regarding parliamentary control with the danish intelligence services. No confidential information was asked for. Just the basic info on how the select committee works. The head of the committee, Thor Pedersen from the liberal party Venstre declined to aid the EU committee. He did this without informing the select committee or the parliament. This caused some uproar when we disclosed his doings in Ekstra Bladet, but later the decision has been upheld at a meeting in the select committee. Complaints have now been filed against Thor Pedersen. This means that Denmark is one of only two EU-countries parliaments have declined to help the EU committee: The other declining parliament is the british. No other EU countries have stepped aside. Indeed they have been rather helpful with the EU committee. Thor Pedersens decision has infuriated the members of EU-parliament Lone Dybkjaer, (party: Det Radikale Venstre, married to our prime minister) and Torben Lund, (party: Socialdemokratiet, which is the governing party in Denmark) Both are members of the EU committee, and both have declared they have no doubt Echelon exists. Meanwhile, the danish signals intelligence-service Forsvarets Efterretningstjeneste is continuing to upgrade their equipment. The SIGINT-site at Skibsbylejren has been equipped with three satellite dishes, all 18 meters across. There are plans to erect further three dishes of the same size. The dishes are solely planned for interceptions. According to building plans a radius around the area must be cleared of all electronic emissions, including cell phone towers and welding equipment. Also tall buildings will be prohibited in the area around the 30 meters tall radomes containing the dishes. Yours Bo Elkjaer, Denmark EOT From adam at homeport.org Fri Dec 8 08:50:24 2000 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:50:24 -0500 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/8/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20001208115024.A26551@weathership.homeport.org> On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:07:38AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: | | At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/8/00, BNA Highlights wrote: | | | > THOUGH TECHNOLOGY MIGHT HELP PRIVACY | > A meeting of business leaders in Redmond, Washington led to | > a frank debate over the insufficiency of North American | > action on consumer privacy and the potential for technology | > to play a key role in protecting such privacy. For example, | > Bill Gates announced that the next version of IE would | > better allow consumers to ascertain Web site privacy | > policies. | > http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/technology/08SECU.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20001207/tc/forrester_exec_injects_security_summit_with_harsh_truths_1.html REDMOND, Wash. -- Just a few hours after Bill Gates opened Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) SafeNet 2000 security summit here Thursday on an optimistic note, Forrester Research Inc.'s (Nasdaq:FORR - news) John McCarthy blew it all up. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 8 09:17:19 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:17:19 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2863 bytes Desc: not available URL: From auto110413 at hushmail.com Fri Dec 8 13:08:31 2000 From: auto110413 at hushmail.com (auto110413 at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:08:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: ip: Chaos Theory Message-ID: <200012090914.BAA03460@user7.hushmail.com> So this is interesting, but you do understand that from a strictly logical perspective it's completely inconsistent and makes no sense whatsoever?? Mr. Murphy complains that Gaza does not meet this "requirements" for being an anarchy - I would then respectully ask "what does???".. If Gaza is not anarchy, has there EVER been an anarchy in all of recorded history? The "State," as a structure of social organization, exists even in communities of animals that are of substantial sub-human intelligence (e.g., wolf packs, lion prides, dophins, ants, most primates and most other social, intelligent animals all exhibit some form of "pecking order" that can loosely be interpreted to be power structures that self-organized out of "random chaos" (so to speak) so as to further the chances of survival for the species as a whole..) human governments are very similar, except they attempt to inject some degree of "civil procedures" into this otherwise life/death Darwinian drama.. If Mr. Murphy seeks a system where people own property and where other people respect this property, then what exactly, I ask, is wrong w/ Northern California?? Defining anarchy to be such a system (where people own property and other people respect this property) is a complete and total breakdown of all logical, rational reasoning.. I hope you also understand that from the perspective of a business man, perhaps the most important role that governments provide is not necessarily "an organized system of corrupt thugs to whom we pay protection money in the form of taxes" (to paragraph Mr. Murphy's arguments); instead, government most importantly provides business with an institution upon which businesses may pass on risk (if necessary).. ALL business is about minimizing risk, and the more that businesses are able to pass on risk to government (the "State", so to speak), the happier they are.. You need look no further than the DoD bailout of Iridium to see what I mean.. (there are MANY other such examples too..) If Mr. Murphy believes that it is possible to run a business absent government (i.e., in an anarchy), I suggest he quit the pot-smoking grad school scene, get a REAL job (preferabbly in Northern California) and see firsthand how the world REALLY works.. (perhaps AFTER he spends several months in Russia, so he can compare and constrast..) the word "anarcho-capitalist" has no reality for me.. nor should it for any rational, sane human being.. its substantially less than an oxymoron and makes NO SENSE whatsoever.. if you want to live in a world that sustains "anarchy-capitalism", you may as well live in a world where two people can eat the same piece of pizza or a person has the freedom to jump over the Moon (to cite examples from the article) > >A nice rant, below, from a fellow anarcho-capitalist lapsed conservative >apparently Hillsdale College grad. > >[I swear, folks, I *tried* snipping this to relevant bits. :-). I mean, >there's a URL in it and all, and, admittedly, he's preaching to the >choir >around here, but this is nicely done that I couldn't bring myself to >premasticate it for cypherpunk consumption.] > >Cheers, >RAH > > > >--- begin forwarded text > > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 20:35:04 -0600 >To: believer at telepath.com >From: "S. Hunter" (by way of believer at telepath.com) >Subject: ip: Chaos Theory > > >http://www.lewrockwell.com/murphy/murphy19.html > >Chaos Theory > >by Bob Murphy > >Throughout history, there have been countless arguments advanced to >support >the State. None of them has been valid. This essay will address a certain >class of these arguments, whose sleight-of-hand consists in a definitional >trick. My purpose here is not to make the positive case for pure >laissez-faire, but merely to show that each pro-government argument >is a >non sequitur. > >Anarchy is the absence of government, both in political science and >everyday usage (it is the first definition given by Websters, e.g.). >Chaos, in the context of social science, refers to lawlessness, or the >absence of a relative degree of regularity in human affairs. (I say >a >"relative degree" because, obviously, virtually all humans will always >obey >the rule of, e.g., avoiding someone with leprosy or not slaughtering >every female in sight. The laws to which lawlessness is opposed are >generally meant to imply the sometimes irksome rules necessary for a >civil >society.) > >[...] From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 8 05:09:23 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:09:23 +0000 Subject: Knowing your customer References: Message-ID: <3A30DD83.4EE3464F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: [...] > I am not, of course, a banking lawyer, but I certainly hang out with enough > of those folks these days, I've certainly had enough of this stuff shoved > into my head over the years, and, I expect that to get a bank account > without a Social Security number in most states of the US, you probably > need to prove that you are indeed a foreign national, *and* provide a valid > passport as proof of same, and that, frankly, the passport number would be > used *somewhere* as a proxy for SSN where possible. I manage to pay some US income tax (on some share dividends) without ever having a US SSN. They seem happy not to identify you when they are taking your money. Funny that :-) [...] > Modern nation-states have bound up so much of their regulatory and tax > structure into book entry settlement, that it is very hard, more probably > impossible, to get a bank account in this country without being completely, > positively, whatever that means, identified -- biometrically identified, if > it were cheap enough, and certainly with a state-issued identification > number. UK domestic bank accounts usually require some proof of id, though not our equivalent of your SSN (The "national insurance number" - I suspect most people don't know theirs, but it is printed on every payslip & probably hard to keep secret). There is no official government id in UK, except for passports which of course many people have not got. Banks are very keen on proof of address, they ask to see "official" letters (like the gas bill - or an account from another bank) addressed to your name at your house. In fact it is all but impossible to get a bank account without a permanent address. As these days many employers only pay wages through bank accounts... well, that's just one of the reasons the number of homeless people in London went steadily up during the 1980s & early 1990s when employment and prosperity were increasing & the value of welfare benefits was falling. [...] Ken From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 8 05:19:46 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:19:46 +0000 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A30DFF2.4783A4DB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim is turning in to Tim... Jim Choate wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > > > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the "masquerade" > > is NON optional, and - as I understand it - they simply can't give in. > > contrary to all the internet privacy, where we are unwilling to give in > > to even more privacy being taken away, but we CAN (and 99% of your > > typical AOL user survey WILL, if they get offered, say, one hour free > > surfing). > > That's a tad misleading. Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy > concerns but property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things > to those ragheads. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 8 05:38:39 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:38:39 +0000 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A30E45F.9FA91C35@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Petro wrote: > > R. A. Hettinga wrote: [...] > >As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services > >in large cities. > > How do you know they don't? In every office or factory I've ever been in, including government ones where we kept paper copies of tax returns (yes folks, I have worked for the Inland Revenue) there are cleaners. They seem to come in 3 kinds - middle-aged black women, African students working their way through college, and people with vaguely asiatic features who sound as if they are speaking Portuguese. (Sometimes you get a few white students working their way through college but they are more likely to get jobs in bars) If I wanted to hire spies or assassins, I'd go for the middle-aged black women. Preferably short and dumpy and shabbily dressed. Someone who looks like a granny. They can go anywhere, no-one ever stops them or asks them who they are. An invisible woman to match Chesterton's Invisible Man. Ken From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 04:41:56 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:41:56 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> Me wrote: > > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the > > "masquerade" is NON optional, and - as I understand it > > - they simply can't give in. contrary to all the internet > privacy, > > where we are unwilling to give in to even more privacy being > > taken away, but we CAN > > if i were to cloak my desire for privacy in the words of the > Great Squid, would it be more legitimate? does it matter? the point is that almost everyone even here is not willing to go to jail or worse for "another tiny bit of privacy". we don't draw a sharp boundary. we don't say, for example, that knowing my street is ok, but knowing my house number is over the line. and the total population is even worse. the vast majority of internet users would give you pretty much anything for a minimal return ("one hour free surfing"), and everything else for a larger one ("$100 for my political and sexual preferences? sure.") the muslim veil, on the other hand, IS a sharp boundary. as I understand it, it is NOT permisable to lift it in public under ANY circumstances. rounding that up, I'd guess that if we were religious about our privacy, things may be different (possibly just more ugly, but who knows). From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 04:47:56 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:47:56 +0100 Subject: Knowing your customer References: Message-ID: <3A30D87C.AEC7C743@ricardo.de> Nomen Nescio wrote: > > I guess an equivalent ID will do. in germany, you need your ID card to > > open a bank account (um, for those not in the know: we have state-issue > > ID cards in addition to passports. the passport is a travel document, > > used to visit non-EU countries. the ID card is used inside the EU and > > for national purposes (identification, mostly). you are NOT required to > > have it with you all the time or somesuch, but some activities, such as > > opening a bank account, require an ID card. driving license or other > > documents will do in many cases, but I think not for bank accounts). > > How often must your ID card be renewed? What information does it (or the > ID database) contain that a German passport does not? it must be renewed every 10 or 5 years (there's two periods, I'm not sure which one applies in what cases). it contains: name, birthday and birth town, nationality, your signature (as you made it on the form), some string of number that contains your birth date and some other information I'm not sure about but which has most likely been published on the web somewhere. on the backside it contains addresse, height, colour of eyes and the issuing authority. there is also a field where you can have a pseudonym or religious name printed if you want to use it for any "official" activities (say, you're a rock star, actor or author and much more people know you under your pseudonmyn than under your real name). height and eye-colour are whatever you put in the form. I doubt it's ever checked. I know mine have been different on all ID cards I've had so far. the frontside also contains a picture of you, almost forgot that. I have no idea what kind of information is linked to this, i.e. what exactly a cop can pull out of his database by entering your ID number. From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 04:50:51 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:50:51 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A30D92B.330DE7F0@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the "masquerade" > > is NON optional, and - as I understand it - they simply can't give in. > > contrary to all the internet privacy, where we are unwilling to give in > > to even more privacy being taken away, but we CAN (and 99% of your > > typical AOL user survey WILL, if they get offered, say, one hour free > > surfing). > > That's a tad misleading. Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy > concerns but property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things > to those ragheads. I didn't say they are veiled because they value privacy, did I? nope, I didn't. stop reading into my words and start reading the words themselves. thank you. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 8 13:55:08 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:55:08 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001208135508.009e9a00@idiom.com> At 08:46 AM 12/8/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > >On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, petro wrote: > >>Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: >> >>>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >>>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >>>economics :-) > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? It depends on how many hops away from Bob Hettinga you are :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 12:35:52 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:35:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: > Jim claims it has to do with 'property rights' the husband has in the wife. 'had' would be more accurate. Until the mid-20'th century women were property (even in Christian countries). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 12:40:34 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:40:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, James A. Donald wrote: > When Jews are murdering small children in reprisals against stone throwing > by young men, and Arabs are blowing up school buses, then anti semitic > statements against both Arabs and Jews become legitimate, indeed required. I've been saying for nearly 20 years the Jews have become the Nazi's. Bottem line, neither side has hands that are not so bloody that they shouldn't all go home and beat their weapons into plow shears. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 12:47:05 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:47:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Distributed, fractal, peer-to-peer, nonhierarchical, geodesic, silk > road, agoric, anarchic, are all terms basically describing the same > sort of thing. Which term is whizzier is in the eye of the beholder. > > Personally, I got tired several years ago of hearing everything > described as a "fractal geodesic network." I don't know whether the 'geodesic' means the shortest possible path, with respect to the geometry of the 'space', between two points. Fractal simply means non-integer dimension. Computer networks, at least copper or fiber based, can't be fractal. The traffic patterns can have fractal patterns (e.g. Foucault Dust periodicity) but that isn't the same thing at all. 'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet paths. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 8 15:57:49 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:57:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > >Fractal simply means non-integer dimension. > Yeah, that's where it started. But I'm using it more in the sense of meaning the properties that fractal structures have; self-similarity across scales, for one, as in the big nodes work the same way as the little nodes and larger patterns are emergent from the interaction of simple rules. >Computer networks, at least copper or fiber based, can't be fractal. Physically, true. There is a minimum size feature, in the sense that some computing hardware and memory is required of every node. In terms of the flow of information, I'm not as sure. >The >traffic patterns can have fractal patterns (e.g. Foucault Dust >periodicity) but that isn't the same thing at all. The traffic patterns *ARE* the network. If the network has fractal traffic patterns, the network is fractal. >'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. Yup. Mutually exclusive sets of properties. >And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet >paths. At the lower levels in user-land and very small ISP's, it seems to be hierarchical (eg, I have an "uplink" who connects me to the rest of the Internet, and people who connect through my system treat me as their uplink...). But at major nodes like big ISP's and server farms, it's more like a distributed or peer-to-peer network (eg, my uplink has several dozen peers, each with independent connections to other points on the internet, and they each maintain independent connections to several different "backbone sites", and the backbone sites are connected both via dedicated links peer-to-peer *and* via all the ISP's that have connections to more than one of the backbone sites ....) Anyway, once you get up out of hierarchy levels, I think the Internet starts looking a lot more fractal -- self-similarity across scales in traffic flow, emergent bandwidth and load patterns, etc. Bear From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 07:18:32 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:18:32 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A30FBC8.8282F1F6@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > I didn't say they are veiled because they value privacy, did I? nope, I > > didn't. stop reading into my words and start reading the words > > themselves. thank you. > > I didn't say you did. I DID say your statement was misleading because it > only mentions privacy. That isn't the only issue with your example. As a > result, it's a weak argument. > > As usual, you pick an example, it has a couple of nit picks you skipped > or thought unimportant, and you get all defensive when they're pointed > out. Almost like you're still searching for Mr. Goodbar still... > > Pick your examples more carefully and explain them a bit more carefully > and you won't have this problem. eh, where exactly is your problem? frankly, I don't care if people without brains could get "mislead" or something I said has a hair in it that you can split. maybe I should add a disclaimer to my mails: "some intelligence required. parts not included" From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 07:23:20 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:23:20 +0100 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] References: Message-ID: <3A30FCE8.8140BE@ricardo.de> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > rounding that up, I'd guess that if we were religious about our privacy, > > things may be different (possibly just more ugly, but who knows). > > > Be careful about making sweeping generalizations about Islamic cultures; > they vary almost as much as Christian and Jewish ones. While female > modesty is a widely practiced virtue, it's implementation covers a wide > range, from all-encompassing covering to a simple head scarf. point taken. I've had little first-hand experience with anything in this direction, I just happen to live in a country with a considerable islamic population (among others, the largest number of turks outside turkey, according to some statistics). From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 17:46:10 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:46:10 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:57 PM -0800 12/8/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > >> >>Fractal simply means non-integer dimension. >> > >Yeah, that's where it started. But I'm using it more in the >sense of meaning the properties that fractal structures have; >self-similarity across scales, for one, as in the big nodes >work the same way as the little nodes and larger patterns are >emergent from the interaction of simple rules. > >>Computer networks, at least copper or fiber based, can't be fractal. > >Physically, true. There is a minimum size feature, in the sense >that some computing hardware and memory is required of every node. >In terms of the flow of information, I'm not as sure. Argghhhh. Anyone claiming that something "can't be fractal," as Choate apparently does in the section you quote, just doesn't understand the meaning of fractal. Or, in Choateworld, "Since all physical things have three spatial dimensions, there are no non-integer dimensions, and hence fractals cannot exist." Like Choatian physics, Choatian economics, Choatian law, and Choatian history, such crankish ideas are neither useful nor interesting. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 8 17:49:47 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 17:49:47 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> At 02:47 PM 12/8/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. Well, buzzword bingo output anyway. >And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet >paths. ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From feedback at tapdirect.com Fri Dec 8 17:13:58 2000 From: feedback at tapdirect.com (feedback at tapdirect.com) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:13:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: Home Improvement for Christmas Message-ID: <45Z484OT.0Z69BW21@tapdirect.com> Give our popular Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips eBook as a gift to your favorite do-it-yourselfer. Now is the time before the Christmas rush to receive it for yourself or a friend. What a quick and easy solution for home improvement help in time for Christmas! Remember, the eBook reveals how to save 35% on supplies and appliances, and 50% on hand tools and power tools. Also, how to get maintenance or repair professionals for a lot less money without sacrificing quality, how to keep from getting ripped off and much more. And, you can have it all on your computer for easy reference or send it as a gift for that special someone. 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Tom Skinner, Owner Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips From feedback at tapdirect.com Fri Dec 8 17:13:59 2000 From: feedback at tapdirect.com (feedback at tapdirect.com) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:13:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Home Improvement for Christmas Message-ID: Give our popular Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips eBook as a gift to your favorite do-it-yourselfer. Now is the time before the Christmas rush to receive it for yourself or a friend. What a quick and easy solution for home improvement help in time for Christmas! Remember, the eBook reveals how to save 35% on supplies and appliances, and 50% on hand tools and power tools. Also, how to get maintenance or repair professionals for a lot less money without sacrificing quality, how to keep from getting ripped off and much more. And, you can have it all on your computer for easy reference or send it as a gift for that special someone. Our easy to read text file eBook fully covers all these topics: Kitchens, Bathrooms, Color, Plumbing, Wiring, Painting, Remodeling to add Space, Storage, Flooring, Doors & Windows, Fences, and Decks. Each of the twelve sections includes fixup and repair projects with how-to information and step by step instructions. This entire eBook can be on your computer in just a few minutes. Download it for yourself or send it to a friend or relative as a Christmas gift. Please go now to http://www.tapdirect.com/kitchentips.htm for the most current information on remodeling and home improvement help. Click on the SECURE ORDER FORM button to order with confidence on our secure server. You have nothing to lose! Our satisfaction guarantee covers you completely. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays! Tom Skinner, Owner Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 19:29:40 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:29:40 -0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001209020842.00922bd0@zebra.swip.net> References: <4.1.20001209020842.00922bd0@zebra.swip.net> Message-ID: At 2:26 AM +0100 12/9/00, Mats O. Bergstrom wrote: >At 10:52 2000-12-08 -0800, Tim May wrote: > >>[cryptography at c2.net removed from the distribution list. They claimed >>not to want any politics discussion, and they are a closed list, so >>why is political discussion going to it?] > >As I remember ancient history it was the coderpunks offspin refusing >any politics while "Perry's list" - cryptography - started with the intent of >allowing crypto-politics and related subjects that the moderator would >let through. Anyway, "Perrygrams" have become almost extinct on the >cryptographt list lately. Whatever. The modus operandi is for someone to create His Own List and then issue the rules and tell people he doesn't want politics talked about. Unless, of course, he is the one talking politics, or unless he likes what others are saying. Fine that people want such closed lists, whether Perrypunks, Lewispunks, Declanpunks, Hettingapunks, whatever. Just don't crosspost from their closed lists to our open list, is all I ask. (Every time I write a message pointing this out, I can count on getting a snippygram from one of them saying that I am perfectly free to become a member of their lists and thus be able to post. No thanks, on general grounds. Plus, I am not interesting in writing an essay and then having my submission blocked by Perry or Lewis or whomever. I accept their propertarian right to do such blockage, of course. Doesn't make it what I want, or what I think the community benefits from.) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 19:32:43 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:32:43 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 10:17 PM -0500 12/8/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 5:49 PM -0800 on 12/8/00, Bill Stewart wrote: > > >> At 02:47 PM 12/8/00 -0600, Jim Choate emetted: >>>'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. >> >> Well, buzzword bingo output anyway. > >:-). "Neological" is so much more... euphemisitic... > >>>And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet >>>paths. >> >> ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... > >Depends on what dimension you're measuring. For fun, I pick time. > >I leave a definition of fractal time to the more mathematically creative >out there. You're the one using it, so why would you ask us to try to guess what you mean? Unless you are saying you were just hand-waving, which would make Choate's point, much as I am loathe to admit. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 18:35:51 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 20:35:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Argghhhh. Anyone claiming that something "can't be fractal," as > Choate apparently does in the section you quote, just doesn't > understand the meaning of fractal. > > Or, in Choateworld, "Since all physical things have three spatial > dimensions, there are no non-integer dimensions, and hence fractals > cannot exist." Bullshit. I find fractals all the time. I make a good part of my living dealing with them. > > Like Choatian physics, Choatian economics, Choatian law, and Choatian > history, such crankish ideas are neither useful nor interesting. > Counter arguments, instead of ad hominims, eagerly awaited... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 18:41:55 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 20:41:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > > > > > Or, in Choateworld, "Since all physical things have three spatial > > dimensions, there are no non-integer dimensions, and hence fractals > > cannot exist." As a person who holds a physics degree you should know the best guess number of dimenions is somewhere in the 20+ range (ie Super Symmetry). Some of those dimensions are linear (ie x-axis) and some have very little 'lenght' at all, and others are 'twisted' back upon themselves. You should also know better than to try to seperate the time from the space dimensions. It's hard to discuss concepts like 'phase space' without a time dimension (especially in the context of a network). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at digilicious.com Fri Dec 8 21:59:07 2000 From: nobody at digilicious.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:59:07 -0800 Subject: NYT:The Nexus of Privacy and Security Message-ID: <1fd216bf68ef0c46a61ff69fbd7b19a4@digilicious.com> By JOHN SCHWARTZ EDMOND, Wash., Dec. 7 Q Trust us. Please? That is the message from leaders of high-technology businesses and advocacy groups at SafeNet 2000, a Microsoft-sponsored conference on computer security and privacy. The stated purpose of the conference, which opened here today, is to reach a consensus on issues like when and how to publicize vulnerabilities in a vendor's software Q like, say, Microsoft's Q that could compromise privacy or data security. But the freewheeling panel discussions today touched on all the major policy issues facing high technology companies. And it showed, as Microsoft's chairman, William H. Gates, said in a keynote address, that privacy and security "are tied together in a very deep way." Announcing a Microsoft initiative on consumer privacy, Mr. Gates said the next version of the company's Internet Explorer software for browsing the Internet would incorporate a technology that could make it easier to ascertain the privacy policies on Web sites. The conversation at the conference was remarkably frank, and sometimes quarrelsome. In a discussion of privacy issues, Nick Mansfield of Shell Services International, a computer services subsidiary of the Royal Dutch/Shell Group, praised consumer privacy rules passed by the European Union and said that in contrast, "I don't see anything intelligent in the privacy field in North America." The comment elicited a murmur of irritation in the packed meeting room, but a few minutes later, Microsoft's own chief privacy officer, Richard Purcell, said much the same thing. Consumers, he said, merely see an industry that is squabbling over position in the market, not one that is moving forward with any coherence on privacy issues. "How do we get to that vocabulary, that purpose and that channel of communication," he asked, "that assures consumers that we aren't a lot of evil-headed monsters?" It was notable, though little remarked by the attendees, that the conference's host has often been at the center of the privacy and security debate. Some of the most prominent computer virus attacks, including the "I Love You" program started early this year in the Philippines and the Melissa program last year, took advantage of the vulnerability of Microsoft's wares and their near- ubiquity around the globe. Some who did not attend the conference were not so gentle. "The irony of it is amazing," Jeff Bates, editor of the online technology news site known as Slashdot, said in an e- mail interview. He accused Microsoft of being "a company that leaves me vulnerable to security holes so that it can make my screen look prettier." Others at the conference noted that one of the meeting's goals Q to come up with standard procedures for reporting software flaws Q would serve Microsoft well, since it has long been the victim of "gotcha" announcements that describe bugs before the company has had a chance to fix them. A former hacker who goes solely by the name of Mudge, who now works as a security consultant, defended Microsoft for having changed since the days when he and his friends would gleefully publish examples of its software flaws on the Internet. "There was a time when they would treat an information release quite differently," he said, by trying to sweep the problem under a rug. In recent years, Microsoft has poured money and personnel into responding to bugs, and has improved its relations with those who publicize them, Mudge said. Describing the new privacy features in Internet Explorer, Mr. Gates said they would let consumers decide what level of privacy protection they need Q whether, for example, the machine should accept cookies, the software deposited in consumers' PC's by Web sites to track visitors. The system, known as Platform for Privacy Preferences Project, or P3P, has long been under independent development. But the announcement means that Microsoft is pulling back from a simpler approach to giving consumers more control over their cookies by letting them block all "third party" cookies, those originating from sites other than the one that the Web surfer is visiting. Such cookies irk many privacy advocates, who say that they expose consumers to scrutiny by advertising firms, for example, without their knowledge or consent. On the security side, Mr. Gates said Microsoft, which suffered an embarrassing series of hacker intrusions in October, had been trying to act as a model for other companies by instituting a pilot program using "smart cards" to restrict access to the inner workings of the company's computer networks. The project put the cards into the hands of about 1,000 system administrators, who must insert them into special readers on their computers to make any changes on the company's networks. Barry Steinhardt of the American Civil Liberties Union said the example showed the frequent tension between privacy and security, since the technology allows a person's movements to be tracked when a door is opened or a PC used. Smart cards, he said, "have value as security technology, but they are very destructive of privacy Q you're identified everywhere you go." Mr. Gates called for enhancing network security systems to help people get the information they want, block the mail they do not want and prevent computer intrusion. Moments after his speech, Microsoft's public relations firm sent out press releases announcing that the kinds of security software described by the Microsoft chairman were available from Microsoft. From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Fri Dec 8 21:13:12 2000 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 22:13:12 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: update HONG KONG--Siemens has a solution for people who constantly forget computer passwords: a mouse that recognizes fingerprints. Called the ID Mouse, the device uses biometrics to take advantage of the unique features of people's fingerprints. German electronics maker Siemens, which showed off the ID Mouse this week at the ITU Asia Telecom 2000 fair, said the device works by allowing pre-authorized people to retrieve information from their PCs or laptops. By lightly tapping the fingertip sensor located at the top of the mouse, the device verifies the fingerprint against reference templates already input into the PC's system. Once a fingerprint is authenticated, the person can then access the PC's main operating system. Siemens is one of numerous companies headed in the direction of using unique features for identification. The mouse is powered by 65,000 sensing elements on the 0.25 square-inch fingertip chip that enables the device to scan and capture the fine details of a fingerprint. The system is so sensitive that it will recognize an authorized person even if there is a cut on the fingertip. For added security, if the mouse user takes a break, the screensaver is activated until the person touches the ID Mouse again. Other than that, the ID Mouse operates just like any Microsoft mouse. It has a wheel scroll for navigation and requires at least Microsoft Windows 98 and a USB connection. This week's conference is the International Telecommunications Union's 23rd telecom show since its 1971 debut in Geneva. The six-day fair, which ends Saturday, took place in Hong Kong this year and was expected to attract at least 50,000 visitors from more than 50 countries. Singapore.CNET.com's Priscilla Wong reported from Hong Kong. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 8 19:17:04 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 22:17:04 -0500 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 5:49 PM -0800 on 12/8/00, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 02:47 PM 12/8/00 -0600, Jim Choate emetted: >>'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. > > Well, buzzword bingo output anyway. :-). "Neological" is so much more... euphemisitic... >>And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet >>paths. > > ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... Depends on what dimension you're measuring. For fun, I pick time. I leave a definition of fractal time to the more mathematically creative out there. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 20:33:49 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 22:33:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > > ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... > If you think about it this is actually one way to view the Internet. Consider the highest layer nodes. Place them equidistant on a sphere and interconnect them with links. Whether they are geodesic or not isn't relevant (unless you'r using a shortest-path algorithm, which we don't). Anyway. The next thing you do is connect each single user machine to it's appropriate node. Cluster them in a similar manner. You get a globe with little partial globe 'bumps' centered on each 'parent' node. Then from each of these parent nodes, using a different length path for distinguishing, list the multi-user nodes. Then interconnect these nodes. Repeat add infinitum (well you can't realy since the lowest level link, a single ppp link for example can't be broken down into smaller physical links, the net is pseudo-fractal at best at this scale). You can also do them as 'sea urchins'. The reality is that the Internet, as big as it is, is simply too small by several orders of magnitude to be modelled by anything approaching a true fractal. However, by looking at it from the perspective of emergent behaviour from simple rules we can probably gain more understanding and control over its use. Something akin to cellular automatons with simple neighborhood rules interconnected by 'small network' models. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 22:44:02 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 22:44:02 -0800 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:14 AM -0500 12/8/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > > > <> >> > > >Sean writes: > >>ASCII plain text *is* The Way. But guess what, PGP/MIME *is* plain text. >>You can even parse it with your eyeballs. > > >Sean: Guess what: Your message comes as an attachment, which I have >to open seperately. > >Peter By the way, the same problems with MIME, HTML, attachments, etc. is hitting the Newsgroups as well. Some of the newsgroup folks are posting reminders (from charters, FAQs) not to do this. Here's one I just saw in the comp.lang.ruby group: " (a) General format guidelines: - Use *plain* text; don't use HTML, RTF, or Word. - Include examples from files as *in-line* text; don't use attachments. - PLEASE NOTE! Include quoted text from previous posts *BEFORE* your responses. And *selectively* quote as much as is relevant. " Good advice for our list as well. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From allyn at well.com Fri Dec 8 23:38:08 2000 From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:38:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi: I did not know about laws forbidding wearing masks. I see masks everywhere during Haloween. Is this illegal? Mark From cab8 at censored.org Fri Dec 8 23:53:21 2000 From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol A Braddock) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:53:21 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks References: Message-ID: <02a101c061b5$1a5225e0$cc38e43f@happycat> perhaps the scale larger than the highest layer nodes is no longer recognisable as being part of the fractal. Likewise the nodes at each ppp have some organization as to how they handle data internaly. The shape of a shoreline is often used to illustrate fractal self similarity, but you quickly reach a point where it is hard to call it a shoreline anymore, it becomes grains of sand, pebbles, or boulders. So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would the number be good for? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" To: Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Fractal geodesic networks > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > > > > > ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... > > > > If you think about it this is actually one way to view the Internet. > Consider the highest layer nodes. Place them equidistant on a sphere and > interconnect them with links. Whether they are geodesic or not isn't > relevant (unless you'r using a shortest-path algorithm, which we don't). > > Anyway. The next thing you do is connect each single user machine to it's > appropriate node. Cluster them in a similar manner. You get a globe with > little partial globe 'bumps' centered on each 'parent' node. Then from > each of these parent nodes, using a different length path for > distinguishing, list the multi-user nodes. Then interconnect these nodes. > Repeat add infinitum (well you can't realy since the lowest level link, a > single ppp link for example can't be broken down into smaller physical > links, the net is pseudo-fractal at best at this scale). > > You can also do them as 'sea urchins'. > > The reality is that the Internet, as big as it is, is simply too small > by several orders of magnitude to be modelled by anything approaching a > true fractal. However, by looking at it from the perspective of emergent > behaviour from simple rules we can probably gain more understanding and > control over its use. Something akin to cellular automatons with simple > neighborhood rules interconnected by 'small network' models. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From alan at clueserver.org Fri Dec 8 23:58:25 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:58:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mark Allyn wrote: > I did not know about laws forbidding wearing masks. I see masks everywhere > during Haloween. Is this illegal? *EVERYTHING* is Illegal. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From bear at sonic.net Sat Dec 9 00:16:13 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the US, to appear in public wearing a mask. Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. Dunno about other countries and other states. Bear On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mark Allyn wrote: > >Hi: > >I did not know about laws forbidding wearing masks. I see masks everywhere >during Haloween. Is this illegal? > >Mark > > From bear at sonic.net Sat Dec 9 00:30:40 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:30:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: fingerprint mouse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Anonymous wrote: >update HONG KONG--Siemens has a solution for people who constantly forget computer passwords: a mouse that recognizes fingerprints. > > >By lightly tapping the fingertip sensor located at the top of the mouse, the device verifies the fingerprint against reference templates already input into the PC's system. Once a fingerprint is authenticated, the person can then access the PC's main operating system. Oh, right. And nobody could *possibly* dust it for fingerprints, etch a fingerprint into a rubber pad, and tap the rubber pad on the sensor. That might take what, a whole hour? Plus all the replay attacks, the possibility of induction monitoring on the mouse cable, software that captures the digitized fingerprint from the serial buffer, software that replaces the file that the fingerprint data is kept in, etc... My biggest problem with this is that people using it will *think* their data is secure. Bear From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Dec 9 00:33:24 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 00:33:24 -0800 Subject: Mask Laws: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001209003324.00934780@idiom.com> >"Trei, Peter" wrote: >> Unless there is a specific loophole for Muslim women's veils, I suppose >> they are technically in violation, but as I said, these laws are hardly >> ever invoked. If say, there were a rash of terrorist attacks involving >> veiled persons occured, there'd be crackdown. One of the reasons for mask laws is *specifically* veiled terrorists - wearing white spook outfits. The KKK is fortunately past its heyday, and the more common police problems when they hold marches are keeping the crowds from beating them up and unmasking them. Another reason for such laws may be bank robbers and highwaymen, but it's mostly the Klan. I did hear there was a case in Detroit or somewhere about mask laws being applied to veiled women, but the loophole to go for is the First Amendment protections on religious freedom. France, on the other hand, has had public schools ban girls from wearing head coverings, primarily because they emphasize the cultural differences. I read an article a while back about how the black dress outfit was becoming very common among Egyptian businesswomen. Not because they were traditionalists, but because the alternative, at least in Cairo, was that they were expected to dress fashionably and expensively, even though Egyption salaries for women haven't caught up with salaries for men, and the black dress is cheap, often more comfortable, and has enough traditional support that nobody can argue. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 9 00:45:21 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:45:21 -0800 Subject: fingerprint mouse. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:30 AM -0800 12/9/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Anonymous wrote: > >>update HONG KONG--Siemens has a solution for people who constantly >>forget computer passwords: a mouse that recognizes fingerprints. >> >> >>By lightly tapping the fingertip sensor located at the top of the >>mouse, the device verifies the fingerprint against reference >>templates already input into the PC's system. Once a fingerprint is >>authenticated, the person can then access the PC's main operating >>system. > >Oh, right. And nobody could *possibly* dust it for fingerprints, >etch a fingerprint >into a rubber pad, and tap the rubber pad on the sensor. That might >take what, >a whole hour? Less, for a black bag agent. And black bag entries are becoming a standard, court-authorized measure. I wonder how long before a court-authorized measure will be simply mugging a target and cutting off his ID finger. When government adopts the MO of the thief, all things are possible. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From emd at ta3.so-net.ne.jp Fri Dec 8 08:27:48 2000 From: emd at ta3.so-net.ne.jp (Delivery Boy) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:27:48 +0900 (JST) Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCOiNMayRPJDMkQSRpJEcbKEI=?= Message-ID: <200012081627.BAA28712@mail.ta3.so-net.ne.jp> いつもの掲示板・出会い・メールフレンドサイトをご利用戴き 有り難うございます。 本日は新しいサイトのご案内をさせて戴きます。 http://homepage2.nifty.com/degedock/mori/ もし、ご不要でしたら削除して下さい。 今後、このご案内メールご不要の場合は、 お手数ですが「リターンメール」して頂ければ次回より削除致します （時間差により重複する場合がございます　その際はご容赦下さい） ご意見・ご希望・ご感想など、ご遠慮なくこちらまで emd at ta3.so-net.ne.jp From mob at mbox301.swipnet.se Fri Dec 8 17:26:54 2000 From: mob at mbox301.swipnet.se (Mats O. Bergstrom) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 02:26:54 +0100 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20001209020842.00922bd0@zebra.swip.net> At 10:52 2000-12-08 -0800, Tim May wrote: >[cryptography at c2.net removed from the distribution list. They claimed >not to want any politics discussion, and they are a closed list, so >why is political discussion going to it?] As I remember ancient history it was the coderpunks offspin refusing any politics while "Perry's list" - cryptography - started with the intent of allowing crypto-politics and related subjects that the moderator would let through. Anyway, "Perrygrams" have become almost extinct on the cryptographt list lately. //Mob From mis at itiaccess.com Sat Dec 9 03:00:47 2000 From: mis at itiaccess.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:00:47 -0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> update HONG KONG--Siemens has a solution for people who constantly forget computer passwords: a mouse that recognizes fingerprints. [...] Hasn't any seen the movie 6th Day? Who needs a password when you can borrow the necessary biometric token from its owner if you have a hatchet or decent knife? From urban247 at urban247.com Sat Dec 9 01:30:38 2000 From: urban247 at urban247.com (urban247) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 03:30:38 -0600 Subject: THE NEXT BLACK MUSIC FAZE-OUT // SPORTS & SOCIETY Message-ID: <200012101919.OAA18141@renown.cnchost.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 19582 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpg Size: 10836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From commerce at home.com Sat Dec 9 00:42:28 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:42:28 -0500 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] References: Message-ID: <00d101c061bb$f73fb520$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Allyn" > I see masks everywhere during Haloween. Is this illegal? Probably; most things are. But, as long as you don't confess, how could it be proven? From nobody at dizum.com Fri Dec 8 21:50:12 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 06:50:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: Microsoft banned from security email list Message-ID: <545b881f6d7d70ae68d7a2562fadc1cb@dizum.com> By Stephen Shankland Staff Writer, CNET News.com December 8, 2000, 1:05 p.m. PT URL: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-4062758.html The administrator of a popular computer security mailing list banned postings from Microsoft on Thursday after the company stripped detailed information out of its advisories, but a compromise is likely on the way. Microsoft last week pared down the security warnings it sends by email to the Bugtraq and NT-Bugtraq mailing lists as well as to 130,000 other subscribers who want to know about vulnerabilities and fixes to Microsoft software, said Scott Culp, Microsoft's security program manger. Instead, the emails include a link to a Web page with additional details. Microsoft made the change so customers get the most up-to-date and accurate information rather than potentially out-of-date news from an archived email. "The goal is to make sure the information is as useful as it can be, it's timely, and it's accurate," he said. But he acknowledged Microsoft still must send new email out if the Web site changes. Bugtraq moderator Elias Levy thought the change was a step in the wrong direction. "I will no longer be approving any advisories with little or no content that point you to some other place for information," he said in a posting Wednesday. The change meant information is a step farther away, not archived and available in a single central source that might not always be available, he said. The dispute marks another chapter in the sometimes rocky relationship between Microsoft and security experts. While outside programmers often find problems with Microsoft's software, sometimes they earn Microsoft's ire by publishing the vulnerability before Microsoft has time to fix it. Levy wasn't the only one to complain. In a note Friday, programmer Forrest Cavalier voted to resurrect the older format, saying Microsoft has been known to move Web pages so older addresses no longer work. "There was a time that Microsoft URLs had a half-life of a few months," he said. Russ Cooper, moderator of a different security mailing list called NT-Bugtraq, applauded Microsoft's change. "Its very easy to have conflicting information about the scope of a vulnerability depending on which email version of the bulletin you're looking at," he said in a Wednesday posting. Culp, who spoke Friday with Levy at a Microsoft security conference, said Microsoft expects to change the format of the advisories to compromise. "There's a trade-off between how often can you send the (advisory) vs. the extra step of going to the Web page. Somewhere in there is a middle ground," Culp said. Levy began posting text versions of the Microsoft Web pages, but he said Microsoft told him "in no uncertain terms" that reproducing the information "would be considered an act of copyright violation." "So until Microsoft changes their policy or changes their email bulletins back to the old format, you won't see them on the list," Levy said. Microsoft is seeking email comment on the new advisory format. About 1,500 people so far have sent their opinions to the secfdbck at microsoft.com email address, he said. Levy couldn't be reached for comment today. Another change that comes with the new format is that Microsoft can track who is reading its Web advisories through the use of invisible tracking software called Web bugs, according to Privacy Foundation chief technology officer Richard Smith, who noted that he didn't see that as "a big deal." "One thing that Microsoft is learning here is what bulletins people consider important," he said in a posting to Bugtraq. "With the older format, where all the info was in an email message, they did not get this feedb From nobody at dizum.com Fri Dec 8 22:00:15 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:00:15 +0100 (CET) Subject: Personal Firewalls Fail the Leak Test Message-ID: By Brian McWilliams In an attempt to show that personal firewalls may afford their users little protection against serious threats, a respected PC security expert has released a new software tool that pokes holes in many of the leading desktop security packages. Security-conscious Internet users, especially those on broadband connections, have made desktop firewall software into a booming business for companies like Symantec and Network Associates. But according to Steve Gibson, president of Gibson Research, almost all of these utilities only provide "pseudo protection" against attacks. That's because they put most of their effort into blocking incoming hacker attacks, while paying only scant attention to what he calls internal extrusion. "I really believe the problem of software in your computer misbehaving is much bigger than the problem of hacker attacks. Most people don't have any vulnerabilities; there's nothing a hacker can do to you. So I argue against the necessity of any kind of inbound blocking tool," said Gibson. To prove his point, Gibson has developed a free utility called LeakTest. The 27-Kbytes program is a trojan-horse/spyware simulator that attempts to slip past a personal firewall's defenses and connect to a server on the Internet. Not surprisingly, popular intrusion detection programs like BlackIce Defender from Network Ice fail to catch the outgoing connection and report it to the user. But more disturbingly, several firewalls that claim to offer outbound detection are also fooled by LeakTest. Among them, the best selling Norton Personal Firewall and McAfeeFirewall. Both are among a small number of desktop firewall programs that attempt to address the problem of unauthorized outbound leakage, but Gibson says they fall short and can be easily fooled or bypassed because they come pre-programmed to allow some applications to pass through the firewall. "This idea of allowing all these apps pre-approval is ludicrous. It's trivial to get permission out of the firewall without notifying the user," said Gibson, who observed that only one firewall, ZoneLab's ZoneAlarm, prevents malware from masquerading as a trusted program. "They do a cryptographic signature of the programs you're allowing. That's not hard to do, but they're the only ones who do it," he said. Tom Powledge, Symantec's product manager for Norton Internet Security, said the risks outlined by Gibson are low if users are running both a firewall and anti-virus software. And he said Symantec knows of no instances of programs that specifically target Norton Personal Firewall, which is shipped with NIS. But in response to Gibson's critique, Symantec plans to revise the application integrity checking feature in NIS, with an update available to users over Live Update by early next week. In the meantime, Powledge said concerned users can turn off automatic firewall rule creation. Judging by comments on the LeakTest message board at Gibson's site, plenty of users are concerned about the newly exposed porosity of their favorite firewall software. But Symantec's Powledge said their fears could have been avoided if Gibson had given vendors the customary advance notice before releasing LeakTest. "We were seeing no concern about this, and no exploits have been written. And while this makes customers aware of a potential issue, it also makes hackers aware," said Powledge. But Gibson, who had an earlier run-in with RealNetworks over the privacy behavior of its RealDownload product, said he's learned that unless pressure is brought to bear, companies are resistant to change. "These firewalls are not going to get better unless there's someone saying and able to prove -- and to enable the user to prove -- that these things are junk." From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 9 07:40:47 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 07:40:47 -0800 Subject: ip: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: <200012090914.BAA03460@user7.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209072841.020512c0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 01:08 PM 12/8/2000 -0800, auto110413 at hushmail.com wrote: > Mr. Murphy complains that Gaza does not meet this "requirements" for > being an anarchy - I would then respectully ask "what does???".. If > Gaza is not anarchy, has there EVER been an anarchy in all of > recorded history? The "State," as a structure of social > organization, exists even in communities of animals that are of > substantial sub-human intelligence (e.g., wolf packs, lion prides, > dophins, ants, most primates and most other social, intelligent > animals all exhibit some form of "pecking order" that can loosely be > interpreted to be power structures that self-organized out of > "random chaos" A state is a monopoly of legitimate force. What makes a state a state is that the policeman can whack me, and I cannot whack the policeman. This destroys and undermines law, it does not sustain law. Only a few animals have such severe inequality of force, mostly less intelligent ones, (chickens, social insects), and humans have not had a pecking order this severe and extreme throughout most of our evolution. What makes Gaza not an anarchy is that it has policemen, and these policemen answer to a single central authority. It is not absence of laws that makes places anarchic, but absence of rulers. > I hope you also understand that from the perspective of a business man, perhaps the most important role that governments provide is not necessarily "an organized system of corrupt thugs to whom we pay protection money in the form of taxes" (to paragraph Mr. Murphy's arguments); instead, government most importantly provides business with an institution upon which businesses may pass on risk (if necessary). The businessman has no power. The ruler has power. So any risk will be passed in the other direction. > If Mr. Murphy believes that it is possible to run a business absent > government (i.e., in an anarchy), I suggest he quit the pot-smoking > grad school scene, get a REAL job (preferabbly in Northern > California) and see firsthand how the world REALLY works.. (perhaps > AFTER he spends several months in Russia, so he can compare and constrast..) We are using the world anarchy to mean a system with no ruler, and seek an anarchy with laws and without rulers. When you describe Russia and Gaza as anarchies, you are using the term to describe absence of laws, rather than absence of rulers. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG PxGGRnzDTGbh7xI7ELaaCmRs1ZMgJDCe9kFgY3li 4wKPjVSjMKLcl3NV7RhJj+MA+Ly1B4cwfbDzXoARl From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 05:47:46 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:47:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <02a101c061b5$1a5225e0$cc38e43f@happycat> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: > So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would > the number be good for? You can, there are at least two connectivity maps for the net out there. It would describe the complexity of the equivalent graph. As the network becomes more complex the routing issues become more complicated as the number of potential paths increases. So the closer the fractal dimention gets to 3 the more 'saturated' the network becomes with respect to routing issues for example. Admittedly it wouldn't be much use for the leaf node, but for those managing 'common' services (eg name resolution) it would at least give a model on which to base future expansion plans. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 05:57:54 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:57:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Freenet and anarcho-capitalist Message-ID: http://slashdot.org ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Dec 9 09:57:15 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds Win "Child Porn" Case Message-ID: <200012091757.eB9HvFe14966@artifact.psychedelic.net> A Texas couple who ran two very well known and popular age-verification services for Adult Web content have been convicted over the contents of two foreign Web sites which were illegal in the United States, one hosted in Russia, and the other hosted in Indonesia. Age-verification services are a popular method of financing web sites. Subscribers purchase a code for a small fee on a credit card, which proves that they are adults, and gives them access to thousands of web sites which use the particular vendor's codes to admit only adults to pornographic material. Part of the money for the subscriptions is used to make a micropayment to the visited sites Apparently, age-verification services will now be responsible for verifying all content which their codes are used to access, a humongous task. Apparently, providing an access code for content legally hosted in another country now makes one subject to US laws as if one had provided the content from within the US on ones own server. (Cypherpunks beware, while it is child porn that is being run up the flagpole to support this interpretation of the law, bomb-making instructions and seditious speech could easily be next on the list. I imagine Eterity Service operators could easily be characterized as "madams" for their content as well, particularly if they took small payments for accessing the system.) When this story first came out, the news reports mentioned the real issues involved. Now that a conviction has been obtained, one needs a microscope to even determine that the couple did not distribute any underage pornography themselves, that anyone could sign up to use their service, and that the vast majority of the material their codes could be used to access was perfectly legal. Their mistake, it seems, was in allowing revenues from people seeking to access a couple of popular overseas child porn sites, legal in the host country, to become a major source of income for their business. This destroyed their plausible deniability over the content hosted by their clients, and in spite of expensive legal opinions they had gotten which told them they had no legal exposure as mere age-verifiers, permitted the Feds to convince a jury that they functioned as "madams" for the "child-porn warehouse." Of course, because they dared to take the case to trial, and didn't plead, they will face an extremely harsh toilet-plungering by the judge at their sentencing. Here's one article on the case, from something that calls itself the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Note the use of terms like "The Child Pornography Business" and no mention of age-verification at all. But then, when you're "saving the little children," you are permitted to suspend ordinary journalistic ethics in a very Kirkegaardian way. ----- By Toni Heinzl Star-Telegram Staff Writer FORT WORTH -- Thomas Reedy gave himself the email name "Houdini," but even the legendary escape artist could not have wiggled out of the net of evidence of child pornography that authorities built against Reedy's Fort Worth Internet company. After deliberating 6= hours Friday, a federal jury convicted Reedy, 37, and his company, Landslide, on all 89 counts of an indictment accusing him of distribution of child pornography, sexual exploitation of minors and related charges. His wife, Janice Reedy, 32, was convicted on 87 of the 89 counts. The two counts on which she was acquitted had to do with 70 pornographic images on two of the couple's home computers, which were used mainly by Thomas Reedy, according to trial testimony. The Reedys were accused of giving Landslide subscribers access to Internet sites displaying child pornography for fees ranging from $14.95 to $29.95 per month per site. The sites were maintained by foreign Web masters. Landslide was the only gateway to the child-porn sites, prosecutors said. On its Web site a "click here for child porn" link directed customers to the sites. Landslide gave its subscribers user names and passwords after verifying their credit cards. The Reedys could face sentences of life in prison based on the number of counts, the money involved and the violent content of the Web sites they marketed and provided access to. U.S. District Judge Terry Means will sentence the Reedys. He did not set a sentencing date, but federal sentencings typically occur a few months after conviction. The Reedys played a high- stakes gamble taking the case to trial, despite the self- incriminating statements they gave investigators during a raid on their home last year and the mountain of evidence gathered. Thomas Reedy had admitted to a postal inspector that 30-40 percent of his business came from child pornography. Prosecutors had offered Reedy a plea bargain of 20 years in prison in exchange for a guilty plea and his wife five years in a package deal, but the couple refused to take it, prosecutors and defense attorneys said. Prosecutors and investigators who worked for more than a year on the Landslide case said they hope the verdict will put other Internet merchants of child pornography on notice. "I hope this verdict might scare other companies into stopping what they're doing," Assistant U.S. Attorney Terri Moore said. "Police and prosecutors get smarter about this stuff and we're going after them." Dallas Police Detective Steve Nelson, who signed on undercover as a subscriber to Landslide and bought access to more than 20 child- pornography sites, said he was relieved after the verdict. Nelson, a member of the Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force in Dallas, had unearthed evidence of child pornography on sites called "Child Rape," "Children Forced to Porn," "I am 14" and more. He and other investigators saved and documented images that included scenes of children being raped by adults. "This was the tip of the iceberg," he said. "Other companies should be put on notice that they will be dealt with if they exploit children." [Translation. We will be fucking with other age-verification services in the very near future.] Attorney Wes Ball, who defended Thomas Reedy and Landslide, said he will appeal. He reiterated to a reporter what he told the jury in his final argument: "We don't think the responsibility trickles down this far from the Web masters. The Web masters are absolutely responsible." The Reedys were charged in a conspiracy with two Indonesian Web masters, R.W. Kusuma and Hanny Ingganata, and Russian Web master Boris Greenberg, who have not been arrested. The Reedys netted more than $1 million with their porn business between 1997 and 1999 and paid about 60 percent to the foreign Web masters, federal prosecutors said. The child porn business provided a comfortable lifestyle for the couple. They lived in a $425,000 Lakeside home, and each drove a new Mercedes. That abruptly ended last year when federal agents raided their company and home. The business was shut down. The cars were seized along with $130,000 in bank accounts and a few thousand dollars in stocks. Since then, the bank foreclosed on their home. Moore reminded jurors in her closing argument that the Reedys had gotten rich off the misery of children. After Ball compared what they did with ticket takers at a movie theater who are not responsible for the movies, Moore gave jurors another analogy to think about. "They're not the ticket takers, they're like the madam in a whorehouse," she said. "You can't see the girls without the madam." [blah blah etc snip] --- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 9 06:58:37 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:58:37 -0500 Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 4218 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 9 07:10:25 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:10:25 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> References: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> Message-ID: At 3:00 AM -0800 on 12/9/00, Jonathan Wienke wrote: > Hasn't any seen the movie 6th Day? Who needs a password when you can borrow > the necessary biometric token from its owner if you have a hatchet or decent > knife? The simple answer is that most decent fingerprint readers require a living thumb, either through simple body-heat or, if I remember correctly, bioelectrical measurement. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 08:49:08 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:49:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > dropped packets, or time or something, and the network certainly *looks* > like a geodesic one, with multiple nodes plugged into lots of lines > routing packets in arbitrary directions instead of up and down a > hierarchy. That's not geodesic, that's a distributed systems with stochastic management algorithms. The epitomy of 'free market' thinking applied to communications engineering. It's certainly non-hierarchical but it isn't 'minimum distance'. If we apply 'geodesic' to the network between two participants then the goal would be to arrange their adjacency (ie minimize transaction costs). The network makes it appear that they are adjacent because of its ubiquity and acceptable latency. This goal was reached with the telegraph and the radio, 100 to 150 years ago. The next obvious goal would be to reduce the number of regulators. Then of course there is the aspect of the 'personal bank'. This would be where you and I exchange widgets via our PDA's that somehow get mapped into our personal financial/property space without going through some arbitration via 3rd party. The social and economic implications of this are staggering. This effectively means no taxes. This means that there are no shared or common resources. This implies that each person is either themselves autonomous, or acts as an agent who represents that independent autonomous collective (ie arcology or zaibatsu). It reduces society to a collection of 'families'. This implies a multi-planetary system in order to have resources of the requisite scale. Now consider the sorts of technology this will require to be ubiquitous? Neuromancer? Not hardly. Schismatrix is a more apt example. Gene engineered satellites that have doors made from lips and vagina's and the 'systems' of the satellite are the biological systems of the being which is the satellite. Killer butterflies. Shaper versus mechanist. Then consider the implications this has with respect to individual lifetimes and the changes that occur in society. It's clear that society changes slowly but a critical component in keeping it from stopping is the relatively short lives of people. They just aren't around long enough to have 'grand' plans and carry through on them. But, take away the economic issues of this ubiquitous melange of technology and reduce the major driving motivations to emotional ones, coupled with individual access to constructive technology that potentially surpasses the current output of the planet. Couple that will lifetimes approaching 200+ years and we begin to see a side that doesn't bode well at all. And the currently stabalizing force, the slowness of evolution, is going to be removed shortly. There will in effect be no apparent boundary or limit on the attainable goals of individuals. This implies a high level of conflict, or else some sort of meta-society. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 08:53:37 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:53:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: What is a state? (was Re: Chaos Theory) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209072841.020512c0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, James A. Donald wrote: > A state is a monopoly of legitimate force. That's redundent. > What makes a state a state is that the policeman can whack me, and I cannot > whack the policeman. No, it's that the other people in the society won't accept your whacking the nice oinkdroid [1]. Why? Because they figure if you'll whack the oinkdroid what will stop you from whacking them? Nothing. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] There are differences of opinion on the degree of this boundary. In some states it is as James describes, you don't strike the officer period. On others, such as the US, it is possible to strike the officer justifiable if they are themselves acting illegally and putting your life in danger. Being a police officer is not absolute defence against self-defence. From declan at well.com Sat Dec 9 08:27:25 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 11:27:25 -0500 Subject: My short writeup of the NymIP effort Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001209112706.0164b290@mail.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40582,00.html Devising Invisible Ink by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. Dec. 9, 2000 PST WASHINGTON -- An ambitious effort to protect online anonymity will kick off this weekend. A working group of about a dozen technologists, called NymIP, is gathering before the Internet Engineering Task Force's meeting to take the very first steps toward devising a standard that will foster untraceable communications and Web browsing for Internet users. Currently, commercial products such as Anonymizer.com and Zero Knowledge's Freedom client permit anonymous or pseudonymous Net-surfing. The NymIP effort aims to create standard protocols that would be more widely adopted and not tied to one company's product or service. Zero Knowledge, a Montreal firm, began the project last month, but the working group is now headed by Harvard University's Scott Bradner, an IETF veteran. Quips Zero Knowledge engineer John Bashinski: "I've been heard enough as it is, and am trying to moderate my natural big-mouthed tendencies and let others speak for a while." One probable topic of discussion: The tradeoffs between bandwidth and security. Absolute security requires scads of cover traffic to mask the communications that a user wants to conceal, but it also eats up bandwidth. "Scalability isn't too bad if you're looking at scaling the number of users," writes Bashinski in a post to the NymIP mailing list. "Where scaling seems to bite you is with the size of the anonymity group, defined as the set of users that, given the information the recipient or an eavesdropper has, could have sent a given message. In high-security systems, more or less those with meaningful resistance to traffic analysis, scaling in the anonymity group size seems to be superlinear, maybe even N^2." Translation: That's enough to clog a lot of T-3 lines. [...] http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,40583,00.html New Film 'Dungeons' Drags On by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 7:00 p.m. Dec. 8, 2000 PST Too many films based on a tale with origins far from Hollywood suffer from that irksome flaw of not being true to the original, leaving fans to gnash their teeth and moan like an orc with gastritis. Not so Dungeons & Dragons, which is afflicted with the related but equally vexing ailment of hewing too closely to the awesomely popular role-playing game that gave it life. To wit: The 100-minute flick from New Line Cinema is less a story of love and adventure than a convenient vehicle for some occasionally-phenomenal light shows in dungeons and hordes of swooping dragons flapping around the Empire of Izmer looking like nothing so much as oversized pterodactyls equipped with +5 fireballs and terribly bad attitudes. But successful real-life D&D games require far more -- well-drawn heroes and convincing antagonists are not at all optional. And in devising this wide screen adaptation that opened Friday, director-grand-poobah Courtney Solomon has failed repeated saving throws against the chaotic-evil forces of blandness and blah. By itself, the story shows promise. A vaguely medieval society is sharply divided between the Mages -- an elite and somewhat stuffy breed of magic users who skulk around their towering stone fortress -- and everyone else. Izmer's teen empress (an unremarkable Thora Birch) wants everyone to be "equal," a vague but unobjectionable idea, while the evil Mage Profion (Jeremy Irons) has successfully convinced the legislature otherwise. A power struggle ensues that makes the Florida election look like an endearing display of bonhomie, and the winner is the side that can find the fabled Rod of Savrille and thus command the mighty red dragons. Enter two thieves, Ridley (Justin Whalin) and Snails (Marlon Wayans), who join a cute young female mage, a grumpy dwarf, and an aloof elf -- your classic D&D traveling companions -- to trounce the bad guy, help the good one, and perhaps encounter a love interest or two along the way. It's a good start, but not much more. The director, Solomon, can't seem to decide whether to take the film seriously or allow it to spoof itself -- and neither can the actors. The performance by Academy Award-winning Irons is remarkable only in how lackluster it is, and Wayans' inner-city slang is as out of place as he would be in any believable Thieves' Guild. Note to Solomon: Thieves should be lithe and sneaky, not bumbling trolls. (At least -- spoiler alert -- this Jar Jar Binks stand-in is slaughtered halfway through the movie.) [...] From declan at well.com Sat Dec 9 08:35:34 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:35:34 -0500 Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing In-Reply-To: ; from dorr@asc.upenn.edu on Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:00:25AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001209113533.B10803@cluebot.com> On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:00:25AM -0500, Daniel Orr wrote: > Ronald Plesser, quoted at the end of the article, is an attorney for the > Individual Reference Services group. You may remember the group as among the > most vocal defenders of Lexis-Nexis when LN was going to sell social > security numbers via it PTRAK service. Lexis is one of their members. Ron is far more than that: He's also out of house counsel for DMA. > Westin, the academic who ran the survey, is less than loved among many > privacy advocates. I don't know the guy. He's probably on this listserv > somewhere. I do; I was even at his 70th (I think) birthday party. I think the odds that he's on this list are phenomenally low. Privacy leftists (what you really mean when you're saying privacy advocates) don't like him because they think that after some seminal work he did, he sold out and now supports the idea that there are some valid reasons for corporate data exchange, etc. Heresy! > Also, note the total absence of response from any actual privacy group such > as EPIC or Junkbusters, something a balanced piece wouldn't omit. You mean "privacy leftists," don't you? -Declan From declan at well.com Sat Dec 9 08:38:20 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:38:20 -0500 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: ; from bear@sonic.net on Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 12:16:13AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001209113820.C10803@cluebot.com> I believe this is correct. It's a state or local thing in the U.S. I recall Philadelphia passed an emergency anti-mask ordinance as a way to thwart mask-wearing protesters during the GOP convention: http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/gop-convention-protests.html -Declan On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 12:16:13AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the US, > to appear in public wearing a mask. > > Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. > > Dunno about other countries and other states. > > Bear > > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mark Allyn wrote: > > > > >Hi: > > > >I did not know about laws forbidding wearing masks. I see masks everywhere > >during Haloween. Is this illegal? > > > >Mark > > > > > From precious20x0 at wnonline.net Sat Dec 9 09:40:03 2000 From: precious20x0 at wnonline.net (Kessler Thompkins) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:40:03 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000801c06207$23439a60$a28afea9@w9x5o7> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sat Dec 9 08:46:30 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:46:30 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com>; from mis@itiaccess.com on Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:00:47AM -0800 References: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> Message-ID: <20001209114630.D10803@cluebot.com> On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:00:47AM -0800, Jonathan Wienke wrote: > Hasn't any seen the movie 6th Day? Who needs a password when you can borrow > the necessary biometric token from its owner if you have a hatchet or decent > knife? I taped a CSPAN show about two years ago before a bunch of high school kids who were in DC for the week. The subject of fingerprint access to bank ATMs came up and I mentioned the lop-off-one-digit scenario. They were appropriately horrified, and I don't think the moderator enjoyed it much either... -Declan From cab8 at censored.org Sat Dec 9 13:02:51 2000 From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol A Braddock) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 13:02:51 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks References: Message-ID: <009c01c06223$65685e50$cc38e43f@happycat> Could you explain 'saturated'? I am not sure this isn't related to a more simple surface - to - volume type number, but I only have three or so hands to wave at the difference. How about the average number of links to get to a destination vs the total network size? Plot that the way you would Minkowski sausage volume vs diameter to get fractal dimension. I saw an article pointing out that the average number of links was not growing as fast as the network size would predict, and blaming the expert and portal type sites for the difference. That is a cypherpunkish type observation, it is a number indicating intelligient intervention in the organization of the network. Carol Anne Cyperpunk's cat: =^.^= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" To: Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 5:47 AM Subject: Re: Fractal geodesic networks > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: > > > So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would > > the number be good for? > > You can, there are at least two connectivity maps for the net out there. > > It would describe the complexity of the equivalent graph. As the network > becomes more complex the routing issues become more complicated as the > number of potential paths increases. So the closer the fractal dimention > gets to 3 the more 'saturated' the network becomes with respect to > routing issues for example. > > Admittedly it wouldn't be much use for the leaf node, but for those > managing 'common' services (eg name resolution) it would at least give a > model on which to base future expansion plans. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 9 14:22:36 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 14:22:36 -0800 Subject: Systems Message-ID: The debate about "fractal dimensions" and "geodesic networks" and what characterizes them is part of a much larger analysis of systems in general. Minsky once said that most of AI is about people applying their own names to previously studied concepts and phenomena. This applies to _systems_. Agents, actors, self-organizing systems, bionomics, geodesic networks, agoric systems, markets, connectivity, hierarchies (and lack thererof), swarms, multi-agent systems, distributed systems, disintermediation, and economics in general are all part of this Big Picture. Several books have been written about this stuff, including Kevin Kelley's "Out of Control" and the various burblings of Huber, Gilder, the Santa Fe Institute, and so on. (Speaking of the Santa Fe Institute, I could add to the above list various other terms like: computational ecologies, swarms, emergent behavior, artificial life, etc.) In my view, such terms are only shorthand labels meant to trigger associations in the mind of the listener. Thus, when I see Hettinga prattling on about "geodesic fractionally-cleared bearer markets," it just means "oh, the stuff Cypherpunks advocate." That is, free markets, markets free of top-down centralized control. For example, the trade practices of Pacific Islanders, the spice and silk caravans of the Silk Road (ergo "Digital Silk Road," of Tribble, Hardy, and others), the agora of Athens, the bazaars of Baghdad and Damascus (ergo Eric Raymond's "cathedral and the bazaar" metaphor), and on and on. Or physicists could speak of spin glasses. And they could natter on about correlation lengths, long-range order, phase transitions, etc. (People would find it quite confusing if every time I referred to "fractionally-settled spin glasses" as a metaphor for free markets. Thank your lucky stars. Though I do occasionally draw on phase transitions as a metaphor.) Ditto for throwing in junk about "fractals." ("Everything is fractal! Like, wow, like, farm out!") What these _are_ all related to is to systems made up of bits and pieces and interactions which share many similarities. But also some important differences, so care must be taken not to extrapolate from one domain to another. The tendency of the mathematician is to abstract out all of the domain-specific junk and to invent a terminology which isolates only the important features. So instead of talking about students in a classroom passing notes, or talking about positions of atoms in a crystal, we end up with language like: "A ring is defined to be a .... over a set of elements in a subfield...satisfying associativity...but not pairwise-commutable." This cuts out the "intuition" about how students behave, how crystals actually are composed, how hands of poker appear in real life, etc. etc. This abstraction is the beauty of mathematics. Of course, this beauty does not come without a downside. Anyone who has read the hyper-technical, hyper-pure books of "Bourbaki" (an anonymous collection of mostly-French mathematicians who issued a series of math books in the 50s to the 70s), or anyone who picks up nearly any advanced math book, knows that the symbols are mostly meaningless without some intuition or deep immersion in domains using the notation. While not all mathematicians have a _spatial_ imagination, they still "visualize" their domains. Math is a lot more than just formal manipulation of meaningless symbols. Thus it is in our domain, that of "systems made of many parts." Anyway, I have my own views, and calculations, of things like dimensionality and connectivity, and how they are related. And of why many such systems are "self-organizing." (For example, self-interest. Given a set of N farmers and/or fishermen, no one needs to sit down and figure out all of the prices and terms for a market to develop. Self-interest, local actions, are enough for markets to develop, for ecologies of economic actors, for "geodesic networks" (barf) to form. Even for "bearer-instrument settlement" (shells, beads, dollars, cargo). Likewise, there are sociological, economics, and psychological views of these systems. All kinds of views, all kinds of terms, all kinds of similarities. When I was in college, more than 25 years ago, one of my friends was a real fan of Ludwig von Bertanllanfy (sp?) and his "general systems theory." To my friend Alex _everything_ was an example of general systems theory. Everything. Perhaps he moved on later to viewing everything as an example of chaos, or fractals, or bionomics, or geodesic networks. And to others, everything was a branch of ecology (recall that in Heinlein's "Farmer in the Sky," written in the 1950s (!), ecology was the big thing to study. Ditto for "everything is a branch of physics," "everything is a branch of economics," etc. The worm turns. I advise folks not to concentrate on either Gilder's "telecosm" (or whatever) or Hettinga's "fractional geodesic networks" (or whatever) or even my own "crypto anarchy" (or whatever). The interesting stuff is not in the terminology. By the way, the more interesting thing about these systems is NOT that they are locally-connected, nearest neighbor, as a geodesic dome is connected, but that they are _multiply-connected, high-dimensionality_ systems. (Hint: All 270 million Americans live in an N-cube of just 5 units on each side...but with a bunch of dimensions. Geodesics are not the interesting thing. Communication, bandwidth, connectivity, auction systems, etc., are far more important. ) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From gbroiles at netbox.com Sat Dec 9 14:34:17 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 14:34:17 -0800 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@remailer.privacy.at on Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 10:06:03PM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20001209143417.B18667@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 10:06:03PM +0100, Anonymous wrote: > > I was unable to locate any other states with statutes addressing "mask > wearing" in public (without intent to commit burglary). No doubt the rest > of the offending rules are ordinances instead. > Also see 18 USC 242 and 42 USC 1985 for criminal and civil penalties, respectively, for "two or more persons" who "go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege" secured by the US constitution or the laws of the United States. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 14:55:23 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 16:55:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Or physicists could speak of spin glasses. And they could natter on > about correlation lengths, long-range order, phase transitions, etc. > > (People would find it quite confusing if every time I referred to > "fractionally-settled spin glasses" as a metaphor for free markets. > Thank your lucky stars. Though I do occasionally draw on phase > transitions as a metaphor.) Actually they're not directly comparable. An individual elements final state in a spin glass is dependent upon the state of all its neighbors. It is further predicated that some of the potential states aren't allowed, thus applying 'stress' to the spin glass array. The goal is to find a minimum energy system, that may not be maximal but is 'good enough'. It's quite similar to 'annealling' algorithms in result. A free market exchange on the other hand predicates that *only* the two participants are involved and that each exchange is not predecated upon the state of previous or contemporanious exchanges. The same can't be said for spin glasses. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 15:06:39 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:06:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <009c01c06223$65685e50$cc38e43f@happycat> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: > Could you explain 'saturated'? Sure, I meant it as the actual level of capacity/usage approached the maximal capacity/usage. The 'channel' is saturated, it reaches a point where it can't grow. This is a small grain observation about the capacity/cost ratio for individual links. Another way the 'channel' might get saturated is with respect to 'common' services such as DNS. As the consumer layer grows the load increases and can become problematic (ie DNS time outs become very common). So, one could compare the percentage of requests at each layer of the network and then compare their time series. > I am not sure this isn't related to a more simple surface - to - volume type > number, but I only have three or so hands to wave at the difference. In a way that's what a fractal dimension is. In the case of say a Koch snowflake we're talking of a function part way between a line and a plane. In the context of the Internet we're talking about the complexity moving from 2d to 3d, we've already moved from 1d (direct connect ala BBS's) to 2d. With the growth of space based Internet assets you'll see this number approach 3. > How about the average number of links to get to a destination vs the total > network size? Plot that the way you would Minkowski sausage volume vs > diameter to get fractal dimension. I saw an article pointing out that the > average number of links was not growing as fast as the network size would > predict, and blaming the expert and portal type sites for the difference. > That is a cypherpunkish type observation, it is a number indicating > intelligient intervention in the organization of the network. The network can't exist without 'intelligent intervention", at least I've never heard of a bridge (for example) self-assembling. It could happen but I suspect the odds are pretty slim. With respect to the growth of links, it doesn't surprise me that it's saturating faster than expected. After all 80% of the planets population hasn't ever made a telephone call (or that's the urban legend anyway). I saw an article somewhere the other day (no clue where) stating that the youngest kids (say 8 to 12) are not using the net as much as predicted either. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Sat Dec 9 15:07:18 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:07:18 -0500 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Message-ID: Hot dayum, we got the ATF on that one!!! -p "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Greg Broiles @cyberpass.net on 12/09/2000 05:34:17 PM Please respond to Greg Broiles Sent by: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net From betterlife at juno.com Sat Dec 9 18:44:49 2000 From: betterlife at juno.com (betterlife at juno.com) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:44:49 Subject: Save on your TAXES! Message-ID: <384.684288.259306@juno.com> This 2 minute message could change your LIFE ************************************************************ THIS ENTERPRISE IS AWESOMELY FEATURED IN OCTOBER 2000 MILLIONAIRE, FALL ISSUE 2000 TYCOON, AND AUGUST 2000 ENTREPRENEUR Magazine. Do you have a burning desire to change the quality of your existing life? Would you like to live the life that others only dream about? The fact is we have many people in our enterprise that earn over 50k per month from the privacy of their own home and are retiring in 2-3 years. Wealthy and having total freedom both personal and financial. READ ON! READ ON! READ ON! READ ON! READ ON! READ ON! How would you like to:(LEGALLY & LAWFULLY) 1. KEEP MOST OF YOUR TAX DOLLARS!!!!! 2. Drastically reduce personal, business and capitol gains taxes? 3. Protect all assets from any form of seizure, liens, or judgments? 4. Create a six figure income every 4 months? 5. 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Upon accepting you as a member on my team, I will provide you with complete Professional Training as well as FRESH inquiring LEADS to put you immediately on the road to success. If you are skeptical that's OK but don't let that stop you from getting all the information you need. DROP THE MOUSE AND CALL 415-273-5279 DROP THE MOUSE AND CALL *********************** 415-273-5279 ******************* From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Sat Dec 9 13:06:03 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 22:06:03 +0100 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Message-ID: Ond 12/09/2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the > US, to appear in public wearing a mask. > Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. > Dunno about other countries and other states. In "Church of the American Knights of Ku Klux Klan v. City of Erie," a federal district judge in the western district of PA held: 1. a provision prohibiting a person from wearing a mask in public with intent to deprive others of equal protection of laws or to prevent or hinder constituted authorities from providing equal protection of laws to others did not violate First Amendment; 2. a provision prohibiting wearing of a mask in public with intent of intimidating others because of their exercise of their rights or to cause others to fear for their own safety did not violate First Amendment; but 3. a provision prohibiting wearing of mask in public "with intent to intimidate" violated First Amendment because it was overbroad. The ordinance was: 733.02 CONCEALING IDENTITY IN PUBLIC PROHIBITED Wearing hoods which conceal the identity by hiding the face or masks in a public place is hereby prohibited. No person shall, while wearing any hood which conceals the identity by hiding the face, mask or device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear in any public place within the City. A "public place" was defined as: "all walks, alleys, streets, boulevards, avenues, lanes, roads, highways or other ways or thoroughfares dedicated to public use or owned or maintained by public authority; and all grounds and buildings owned, leased or operated for the use of organizations enjoying all tax-exempt privileges as charitable use." Section 733.01. There were, of course, exceptions to the ordinance: Section 733.02. Certain persons are explicitly exempted from this general prohibition, including: (a) persons under sixteen years of age; (b) persons wearing a traditional holiday costume in season; (c) persons using masks in theatrical productions; (d) persons lawfully engaged in trades or employment or in a sporting activity where a mask or facial covering is worn for physical safety; (e) persons wearing a gas mask in drills, exercises or emergencies; (f) persons wearing a mask for purposes of protection against cold weather; (g) persons wearing a mask because of any illness, allergy or on the advice of a physician. Section 733.04. And the additional requirements were: (a) With the intent to deprive any person or class of persons of the equal protection of the laws or of equal privileges and immunities under the laws, or for the purpose of preventing or hindering the constituted authorities of the United States or of this State or any subdivision thereof from giving or securing to all persons within this State the equal protection of the laws; or (b) With the intent, by force or threat of force, to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person because of his exercise of any right secured by Federal, State or local laws, or to intimidate such person or any other person or any class of person from exercising any right secured by Federal, State or local law; or (c) With the intent to intimidate, threaten, abuse or harass any other person; or (d) With the intent to cause another person to fear for his or her personal safety, or, where it is probable that reasonable persons will be put in fear for their personal safety by the defendant's actions, with reckless disregard for such probability; or (e) While engaged in conduct prohibited by civil or criminal law, with the intent of avoiding identification. Section 733.05. In Hernandez v. Superintendent, Fredericksburg-Rappahannock Joint Security Ctr., the court found in part that "a detachable mask worn by KKK members was not constitutionally protected symbolic speech." The theory was that said detachable mask was not "an essential part of traditional Klan regalia," but an optional accessory. In American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan v. County of Bedford, Pennsylvania, the judge struck down as unconstitutional an anti-mask ordinace which he called a "transparent attempt to restrict public rallies of KKK whose organization members are notorious for the hoods that are part of their regalia". Numerous states have "mask enhancements." Florida, for example: 775.0845. Wearing mask while committing offense; reclassification The felony or misdemeanor degree of any criminal offense, other than a violation of ss. 876.12-876.15, shall be reclassified to the next higher degree as provided in this section if, while committing the offense, the offender was wearing a hood, mask, or other device that concealed his or her identity. (1)(a) In the case of a misdemeanor of the second degree, the offense is reclassified to a misdemeanor of the first degree... Oklahoma has a state statute prohibiting mask wearing (note the exceptions): ' 1301. Masks and hoods--Unlawful to wear--Exceptions It shall be unlawful for any person in this state to wear a mask, hood or covering, which conceals the identity of the wearer; provided, this act shall not apply to the pranks of children on Halloween, to those going to, or from, or participating in masquerade parties, to those participating in any public parade or exhibition of an educational, religious or historical character, to those participating in any meeting of any organization within any building or enclosure wholly within and under the control of said organization, and to those participating in the parades or exhibitions of minstrel troupes, circuses or other amusements or dramatic shows. Any person, or persons, violating the provisions of this section of this act, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than Fifty Dollars ($50.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not exceeding one (1) year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. as does Georgia: 16-11-38 Wearing mask, hood, or device which conceals identity of wearer. (a) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he wears a mask, hood, or device by which any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer and is upon any public way or public property or upon the private property of another without the written permission of the owner or occupier of the property to do so. (b) This Code section shall not apply to: (1) A person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) A person lawfully engaged in trade and employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession, or sporting activity; (3) A person using a mask in a theatrical production including use in Mardi gras celebrations and masquerade balls; or (4) A person wearing a gas mask prescribed in emergency management drills and exercises or emergencies. [Don't you think a mask is part of the "nature of the occupation, trade, or profession" of a bank robber, Georgia?] as does Puerto Rico: ' 4433. Wearing disguise It shall be punishable by imprisonment not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars, or both, in the discretion of the court, for any person who wears a mask, false whiskers or any other disguise, whether complete or partial, or alters in any way, temporarily or permanently his physical appearance for the purpose of: (a) Evading discovery, recognition, or identification in the commission of any offense. (b) Concealing, fleeting or escaping when prosecuted, arrested for or convicted of any offense. Tennessee has a statute similar to the Erie ordinance as mentioned above. I was unable to locate any other states with statutes addressing "mask wearing" in public (without intent to commit burglary). No doubt the rest of the offending rules are ordinances instead. Ugh. From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 03:01:08 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 03:01:08 -0800 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> Message-ID: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Wednesday 06 December 2000 11:11, David Honig wrote: >> At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >> >( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the >> >barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders >> >for ballistic analysis ). >> >> Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't >> afford to treat them as disposable. > >Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth >marks and other metal to metal contact. Most pistol barrels are removable without tools. Besides, two or three hundred rounds down the barrel should be enough to change it's forensics. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 03:08:43 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 03:08:43 -0800 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Russ K wrote: > >> Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth >> marks and other metal to metal contact. > >So the moral of the story is... > >If you want to destroy the potential barrel you'll need to: > >- Have replacement barrels purchased in a non-traceable manner. Why? There are many reasons to have spare barrels. Think "Squib load". >- Have some mechanism to brush or scratch the inside of the barrel, >- Apply a corrosive and allow it to thin the barrel significantly. >- Then twist barrel and heat until red hot. >- Then handle with non-metallic tools only until discarded. Nonsense. The forensic tests on bullets/firearms are based on percentage matches. You simply need to change *slightly* the "finger print" of the barrel and firing pin. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 03:26:31 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 03:26:31 -0800 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >> >From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" >> > >> >THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL > >A republic is a form of democracy, a representative one. No, it isn't. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From nospam at imail.ru Sat Dec 9 16:35:38 2000 From: nospam at imail.ru (NOSPAM) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 03:35:38 +0300 Subject: =?koi8-r?B?0NLJx8zB28XOycUgzsEg+s7B1M/LLlJ1IM/UIPfB08nMydE=?= Message-ID: <001e01c06241$1eaca0c0$56cabec2@default> Здравствуйте! "Интересный сайт! Можно получить ответ на любой вопрос" Ваш друг Василий предположил, что Вам будет интересно воспользоваться бесплатными услугами сайта http://www.znatok.ru/main.asp Знаток.Ru - это место, где пользователи могут оперативно получить ответы на множество вопросов на различные темы. Для тех, кто может поделиться своими знаниями с другими, Znatok.Ru предоставляет отличную возможность помочь советом другим людям. Есть вопросы? 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From nobody at remailer.ch Sat Dec 9 20:48:17 2000 From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous) Date: 10 Dec 2000 04:48:17 -0000 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <221107e1d2b46712d46090cf2e197d3e@remailer.ch> Anonymous wrote: > Oklahoma has a state statute prohibiting mask wearing (note the > exceptions): > > � 1301. Masks and hoods--Unlawful to wear--Exceptions > > It shall be unlawful for any person in this state to wear a mask, hood > or covering, which conceals the identity of the wearer; provided, this > act shall not apply to the pranks of children on Halloween, to those > going to, or from, or participating in masquerade parties, to those > participating in any public parade or exhibition of an educational, > religious or historical character, to those participating in any meeting > of any organization within any building or enclosure wholly within and > under the control of said organization, and to those participating in the > parades or exhibitions of minstrel troupes, circuses or other amusements > or dramatic shows. Any person, or persons, violating the provisions of > this section of this act, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and > upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than > Fifty Dollars ($50.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or > by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not exceeding one (1) > year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Fascinating. Do they have motorcycles in Oklahoma? From bela400 at mail.com Sun Dec 10 09:57:57 2000 From: bela400 at mail.com (bela nagy) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 09:57:57 -0800 Subject: web graphic design Message-ID: <20001210150025.BFIW1373.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@excite.com> Affordable Web and Graphic Design. If you're looking for a simple, affordable means of getting your business materials designed or published on the Internet, we have the answer. We operate with very minimum overhead to ensure that our final products are very affordable. We are a team of young talented graphics professionals located in Toronto, Canada. We are operating a legitimate business and we are interested in establishing a long-term mutually beneficial relationship. For a portfolio please reply this email. Sincerely, bela nagy 416.722.6277 This should be a one time mailing operation. I am very sorry if my email made you angry. Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to belanagy at yahoo.con with the word "remove" in the subject line. From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 10:19:58 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:19:58 -0800 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: At 11:58 AM -0500 12/10/00, Robert Guerra wrote: >Declan: > >I completely agree with you that internet voting isn't quite ready >fom prime-time just yet. But given the current snafu I highly >suspect that there will be a lot of interest in the field. > >Certainly, I hope one of the few things the new congress will be >able to do is set-up a commission to propose new voting standards. >Hopefully they will pick a standard that doesn't give rise to >problems 30-40 years in the future... > >personally, if I had a say I'd say they should adopt the same system >Canada uses. They use a 100 year old system, had few if any >recounts, and managed to count all thier manual ballots in less than >72 hours. It wasn't a close election, was it? Didn't think so. In the U.S., when the election isn't close, the ballots are counted, and recounted, by midnight of the day of the election...maybe by mid-morning the next day. It's the _closeness_ that magnifies potential hinge points into court cases, redefinitions, and recriminations. As for "Hey, kids, let's all put on an electronic vote!," it's been discussed many times here. And elsewhere. RISKS had a major discussion of the...risks. As someone said in recentl weeks, if we really want to see elections stolen efficiently, make them electronic. No paper trail, no evidence, no chads, just pure gleaming bits. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From gateway at cryptorights.org Sun Dec 10 07:23:17 2000 From: gateway at cryptorights.org (Robert Guerra) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:23:17 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <120171.976443797@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. Looks like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! regards robert From rah at shipwright.com Sun Dec 10 08:14:33 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:14:33 -0500 Subject: Secretions Message-ID: Speaking of chadors... Thanks, as ever, to Ryan for cypherpunks.venona.com. Cheers, RAH ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] secretions ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * To: cypherpunks at toad.com * Subject: secretions * From: Judith Milhon * Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 03:01:26 -0700 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The alternative to mutual trust, which is indeed a risky gamble, is the security of the police state." -- Alan Watts This text may be published in MONDO2000 as my regular column, Irresponsible Journalism. Eric Hughes suggested the coda with the toad address, adding that it would be amusing to have it almost completely blotted by magic marker, as if inadequately censored. I don't want to be the venom in this toad. the idea is to draw in other useful minds. we can assume the WRONG PEOPLE already know the address. lady ada won't apologize for the gonzo wrapping for the ideas; she is concerned only that they be correct and clearly stated. clarifications, expansions, corrections are welcome. also abuse and threats, for that matter... any feedback, please feed me... THE CYPHERPUNK MOVEMENT by St. Jude I don't face-to-face all that much. And I don't like clubs. I was in the Black Hole for a reason: The Screamin' Memes were in town for one night only -- Thursday, of course. Thursday's the night, now that the weekend has annexed Fri. and Mon. I was lurking in the back, hoping not to see anybody, when the Jones brothers staked me out. Damn. They are deep into the street drugs. Keeping up with the Joneses is nigh impossible; their most trivial chitchat is an exercise in decryption. Eddy -- or maybe he was being Ellis that night -- was implying something about somebody when my right foot detonated down to its steel toe. I looked up -- way up -- to a face that wasn't there at all. Just a dome of black cloth, with goggles. Three-eyed goggles. Ah: a Chador. I'd heard of that. I screamed: "You stomped my foot FLAT!" "Sorry." "Are you okay?" "Oh maaaang." Many overlapping voices, all of them synthesized, blurted from above. Out of two tiny speakers hanging like earrings off a basketweave headband like a cop's belt. The head bowed, bringing it almost within biting range. "Gah. Ow. Ooo." Pretending to be demented with pain, I lurched deep into the Chador. But I was cool: I was rootling in there for clues. Ha! Male pheromones. Hardish male torso. I was jostling this lumpy equipment hanging off him, trying to get a good feel of it without alerting him. Nuh uh: _I_ meant electronics... what did _you_ think? Okay: I had some data to work with. Male with gadgets. Quelle surprise. "What the hell have you got on your feet? HORSESHOES?" A voice like rushing water: "Kothurni." The Chador shifted a little... and under his full black skirts I saw them: big weighted club-foot boots with concealed lifts, to disguise the wearer's height. Wicked. The pain and the espionage cleared my head. I was ready to deal. "So you're protecting your meat identity, right?" The Chador seemed to teeter a little. It goggled down at me as if I were a smear on a slide. Its third-eye goggle was a lens. Check. Out of the ambient murk loomed another Chador. Exactly the same height. Right. "How come you guys are in full drag?" "We're here for a... uh... party." The voice from the other Chador was a flanged saxophone, but I could swear it had a Texas accent. "Rubbish. You're having a cell meeting, right? " The near Chador, the one I had groped, seemed to teeter again. What sounded like a tape player on fast-forward came faintly from its interior. An earphone? The saxophone honked: "If I said I even understood what you meant, what kind of a chump would that make me?" "I could hazard a guess. I think you're cryptoanarchists -- what I'd call cypherpunks!" My Chador cracked up. I could tell. The farther one seemed to stiffen; I think it was giving me a hate stare. Hard to manage behind the whole 9 yards o' cloth. "Is that clever or what? I'm onto you like psilocybe on cowshit, dudes. You want to take over the world. Haha hahaha haaaaa." Both of them rocked back a little. I went in after them. "You want to talk encryption schemes? Let's talk cryptic. Tales from the cryp'ed. But make it fast: The Memes are comin' on." Oh, I was bluffing. I don't know much about cryptography. I was just 'tuding them from tech envy. Damn: Chadors. And me without the first widget. From the far guy came a cello, very suave: "The world has already been taken over. You may have noticed this. We're just trying to get some of it back." And the accent was -- Dutch? Bob's yr uncle. Gotcha. I hadn't been certain. Maybe chadors were now trendy club gear -- what do I know? "Hey -- that cello's another guy? How many you PACKIN' in there?" Out of my Chador a sawtooth rasped: "Variable. People are ringing in and out." "You're on line?" "This is a bridge. International." Sawtooth again. The cello resumed, an annoyed cello: "We don't believe in takeovers. In fact, we are working to make things UNTAKEOVERABLE." A theremin quivered, "And to make the world safe for anarchy. _We want the air-waves, baby_." It snickered across many frequencies. The Tejana saxophone chuckled, (and an eerie treat that was, too): "Problem is, how to guarantee privacy for pseudonyms. So you can have a pseudonymous economy." A toad croaked: "So, full-RSA encrypted EVERYTHING. No back doors. Secure digital money. Swiss bank accounts for the millions." The theremin: "A global monetary system that makes governments obsolete. Down come the governments. Goodbye the feds." It sang, whoopingly: "BYE BYE, LAWWww." Horrible broad-band snickering. The toad croaked: "Er... yes. Real freedom of speech, too. Libertech!" The Dutch cello was all business: "Okay, what does it take? You need real-time protocols to prove you own your pseudonym. And your pseudonyms have online reputations, via people you've done biz with -- like a distributed credit rating system. With maybe designated angels -- Fair Witnesses." I was charmed. "And you wear the chador when you face-to-face somebody who knows your handle!" The theremin wheeped: "Actually, unmasking your real identity could be the ultimate collateral -- your killable, _torturable_ body. Even without kids, you've got a hostage to fortune -- your own meat." I was reeling. "Oh yas yas. As Dylan said: 'They asked me for some collateral/ and I pulled down my pants'." Orchestral chuckles rained down on me. Was I an international hit? But at that exact moment The Memes hit the stage. The crowd did a 9.1 Richter lurch and the other Chador pitched onto my LEFT toe, maybe denting the steel. "AAIEEeeee. That's great COVERT GEAR you got there, guys. You couldn't sneak up on Helen Keller in a HAILSTORM." I was trying to spin down. "And dudes -- this is not the neighborhood for flashing the hardware. Getting rolled by winos is pretty LOW TECH." A spike-knuckled glove slithered out of the farther guy, clutching what looked, in the near-dark, like an electric razor. "_Gonna menace 'em with a clean shave_?" The sax: "Stunner. Bottom of the line. But." A hot line of pure energy cracked across its little trodes. Of course. Rushing water: "See ya." And they did a fade into the smoke. The Screamin' Memes were worthless. To hell with clubs. To hell with lots o' things, maybe. I am now sensing my roots, mahn; dey who are my bredren. Nerds. Nerds as mainstreamed by the grainy but still fetching Robt Redford in Sneakers... Nerds who will have their revenge at last, by making the online realer than our current regrettable reality... No, I'm not quite delusional. I've heard the cypherpunks are already distributing their encrypted email software, which is quick and slick. I might even join the revolution, which is, heh, already in progress. Yeah. Why not? Give me libertech or give me... _DES_? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- St. Jude, aka Lady Ada Lovelace, wrote "The Spook in the Machine" for MONDO #1, describing the enforcement of DES, the Data Encryption Scam with the handy backdoor. She can be reached online as stjude at well.sf.ca.us. Note: a definitely false rumor is now circulating that the revolutionists can be contacted via cypherpunks at toad.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- feed me? >jude< ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Prev by Date: through mr. crypto * Next by Date: the hopping remailer is done * Prev by thread: through mr. crypto * Next by thread: the hopping remailer is done * Index(es): * Date * Thread -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From gateway at cryptorights.org Sun Dec 10 08:58:49 2000 From: gateway at cryptorights.org (Robert Guerra) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:58:49 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: <20001210115943.B24183@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Declan: I completely agree with you that internet voting isn't quite ready fom prime-time just yet. But given the current snafu I highly suspect that there will be a lot of interest in the field. Certainly, I hope one of the few things the new congress will be able to do is set-up a commission to propose new voting standards. Hopefully they will pick a standard that doesn't give rise to problems 30-40 years in the future... personally, if I had a say I'd say they should adopt the same system Canada uses. They use a 100 year old system, had few if any recounts, and managed to count all thier manual ballots in less than 72 hours. --On Sunday, December 10, 2000 11:59 AM -0500 Declan McCullagh wrote: > Robert, > With respect, you're joking, right? > > The current system is flawed, true, but an Internet voting system > would likely suffer from far more serious security, authentication, > and fraud problems. This is a recurring topic of discussion in > cryptographic and computer-risks circles. Do some web searches. > > -Declan > > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 10:23:17AM -0500, Robert Guerra wrote: >> Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that >> finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. >> >> One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure >> e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. >> Looks like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! >> >> regards >> >> robert >> From declan at well.com Sun Dec 10 08:59:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:59:43 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: <120171.976443797@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca>; from gateway@cryptorights.org on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 10:23:17AM -0500 References: <120171.976443797@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20001210115943.B24183@cluebot.com> Robert, With respect, you're joking, right? The current system is flawed, true, but an Internet voting system would likely suffer from far more serious security, authentication, and fraud problems. This is a recurring topic of discussion in cryptographic and computer-risks circles. Do some web searches. -Declan On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 10:23:17AM -0500, Robert Guerra wrote: > Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that > finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. > > One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure > e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. Looks > like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! > > regards > > robert > From edbdk at AREU.customers Sun Dec 10 13:55:16 2000 From: edbdk at AREU.customers (edbdk at AREU.customers) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:55:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: make $50,000.00 in just 90 days -KDFG Message-ID: <200012102155.NAA20797@cyberpass.net> Dear cypherpunks: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Make over a half million dollars ($500,000+) every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars - one time! THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! ================================================ BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!! Before you say "Bull", please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost". DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a total of $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, NJ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail, I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa.3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything." More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ****** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following.THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. **** IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in steps 1 through 6 or you will lose out on a majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So, DO NOT try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1. 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To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ================================================ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume you and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but let's just say it is only 0.2%. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for Report #1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. 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Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. **********AVAILABLE REPORTS************* ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering. YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ================================================ REPORT #1, "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Ed Keck 7937 Citadel Ct. Riverside, CA.92503 USA Don't forget to provide a real e-mail address to receive the reports! ================================================ REPORT #2, "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: S.S. Gellner 942 Nassau Cres. Kelowna, B.C. V1Y 4T3 Canada ================================================ REPORT #3, "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: TDC P.O. Box 47542 St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7543 ================================================ REPORT #4, "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Carson Petry P.O. Box 2134 Smyrna, Ga. 30081-2134 USA ================================================ REPORT #5, "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: John Lutheran P.O. Box 33555 San Diego, Ca. 92163-3555 USA ================================================ There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online worldwide! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for Report #2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Everytime your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E- MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ________________________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2...#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ****************** MORE TESTIMONIALS**************** "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail". I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and a few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby"." Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois ---------------------------------------------------------------- "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------- "I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else..11 months passed then it luckily came again..I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York NY ---------------------------------------------------------------- "It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of the third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to the Internet." Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ---------------------------------------------------------------- ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ================================================ If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer protection, Washington, D.C. Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th Congress, this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. Make over a half million dollars ($500,000+) every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars - one time! It's there for you - go for it! Good Luck! From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 14:06:42 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:06:42 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: RAH whinged: >At 6:52 PM -0800 on 12/7/00, petro wrote: > > >>>At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >>>> >>>>An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >>>>to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. >>> >>>A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. >>> >>>Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? >>> >>>As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services >>>in large cities. >> >> How do you know they don't? > >Watch your attributions. I didn't say the above... Anyone who has spent *ANY* time on Usenet or mailing lists can easily read the >>'s . If you didn't write *ANY* of the above, then your gripe is with the person to whom I am replying. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 14:27:13 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:27:13 -0800 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mr. May: > >The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of >their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the >Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web >sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several >times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But I took that statement to mean that if Firestone exercised the same level of diligence in the engineering of their tires that most web sites used, they would be recalling a *LOT* more tires, enough to make the current recall a drop in the bucket. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From commerce at home.com Sun Dec 10 11:35:33 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:35:33 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Guerra" > personally, if I had a say I'd say they should adopt the > same system Canada uses. They use a 100 year old > system, had few if any recounts, and managed > to count all thier manual ballots in less than 72 hours. is there any benefit to the 'canadian system' above it's lack of lawyers? in the last decade in canada, i have voted for different levels of govt via: normal X in the circle paper ballot, scantron sheet, write-the-name-in-the-blank ballot, no polling station/mail-only ballot, various absentee forms, proxy (which the fuckers did away with this year), etc. they were counted by: little old ladies with a pencil and paper; or a Brainiac-2000 computer; or possibly not at all depending on canada post and the particular election. i dont see why any of these methods are inherently better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. i imagine we dont hear a fuss because: all positions are generally local positions and of no larger significance; the vote is often won by a large plurality and not in question; all of these legal cases would probably have died with the first prothonotary that saw them; etc. speaking of canadian elections, its too bad the canadian alliance didnt get elected and revoke the bill c-68 gun control laws, eh? From Somebody Sun Dec 10 14:49:44 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:49:44 -0800 Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... Message-ID: Note: This is off-list. I don't care if you post it back there, but I don't see the need to take it there. You have said repeatedly: "...and, two, that our social structures map directly to our communication architectures..." I've been doing some thinking about this, and it seems to me that you are about 95% correct in this, you just don't take it far enough. It seems to me that what we think of as society is our communication. Social structures don't just map to the communication infrastructure (architecture, whatever), the communication infrastructure IS the social infrastructure. Society is Communication. Communication is Society. You can't have society without communication. As soon as you have any communication, you include (or are included) in the society of the person you are communicating with--and as soon as the communication is stopped for any length of time you are not apart of it any more. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ap at ladproducts.com Sun Dec 10 15:10:00 2000 From: ap at ladproducts.com (ap at ladproducts.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:10:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: cypherpunks, Stay at Home and Make $$$ too! -GQTO Message-ID: <200012102310.PAA19560@cyberpass.net> cypherpunks, We can help you stay at home and make $$$ too! Join the Nation's Premiere Benefits Company! Simply reply to this email or send an email to opportunity at ladproducts.com! You will be sent an informative email with no obligations! We look forward to working with you! Art Poelns We received your name from a list that said you are interested in making or saving money. Under Bill S.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th U.S. Congress this message can't be considered Spam as long as it includes a way to be removed. To be removed from future mailings, simply respond to ladboy13 at yahoo.com with "REMOVE" in the subject. Thank you. From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 15:25:10 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:25:10 -0800 Subject: A piece of advice?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:18 PM +0200 12/10/00, FRANKY wrote: > Hello to everyone. I'm Alexis and as I'm new to cryptography I >would appreciate a piece of advice. I've read the book "Applied >Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier and I also have the "ICSA Guide >to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more >books related to cryptography. www.amazon.com I assume they can ship internationally. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From alan at clueserver.org Sun Dec 10 15:47:10 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:47:10 -0800 Subject: A piece of advice?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001210154132.063a43f0@clueserver.org> At 06:18 PM 12/10/00 +0200, FRANKY wrote: > Hello to everyone. I'm Alexis and as I'm new to cryptography I >would appreciate a piece of advice. I've read the book "Applied >Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier and I also have the "ICSA Guide >to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more >books related to cryptography. Just a note... The ICSA crypto book is one of the WORST I have seen. It is very pro-GAK among other things. (It also does not cover a number of topics that you would think. Kerberos gets a half a page. I keep my copy as a reference of what crypto-systems are probably backdoored. The Handbook of Applied Cryptography from CRC press is a good textbook approach to the field. (It is pretty expensive. About $90.) > Also (if I'm not causing enough trouble already) as I'm trying to >secure one system I would like to kindly ask for guidance. How do we apply >an algorithm to a whole system? I know how to encode a message , but a >system? You don't. For security I suggest that you checkout one of the many books on firewalls and computer security specifically. If you are trying to encrypt the entire drive, it depends on the OS as to what you would use. The latest OpenBSD is supposed to have some interesting crypto-hooks. --- | Terrorists - The Boogiemen for a new Millennium. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | | | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com| From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 15:50:31 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:50:31 -0800 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:27 PM -0800 12/10/00, petro wrote: >Mr. May: > >> >>The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of >>their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the >>Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web >>sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several >>times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But > I took that statement to mean that if Firestone exercised the >same level of diligence in the engineering of their tires that most >web sites used, they would be recalling a *LOT* more tires, enough >to make the current recall a drop in the bucket. Sure, but I was making the point that this is an ironic example, as it was the records which Firestone and Ford kept of their customers which allowed them to send recall letters out to those customers! (I just got Yet Another Letter from Ford, which I haven't opened. The last couple have exhorted me to _please_ make arrangements with a local dealer to have the Firestone tires on my Explorer replaced.) I got a similar letter from Costco, the giant box store, saying that a _rope light_ I bought at some time in the past--their letter gave the exact date--has been recalled due to the chance that it may burst into flames under certain circumstances. (When it gets wet, as the waterproofing was faulty. Inasmuch as I use these rope lights to illuminate and heat the interior of my gun safe, I ignored the letter.) There are technological solutions for how companies can notify customers without knowing what customers buy, obviously. Nyms, cut out accounts, agents which send ticklers, etc. This was not my point, only the irony of citing the Firestone recall in a discussion of how companies are tracking purchases. But since the word "irony" has been removed from all current dictionaries.... --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 16:46:05 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:46:05 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: <20001210172441-r01010600-0f55b3aa@209.245.227.94> References: <20001210172441-r01010600-0f55b3aa@209.245.227.94> Message-ID: At 5:24 PM -0600 12/10/00, Allen Ethridge wrote: >On 11/30/00 at 1:46 AM, tcmay at got.net (Tim May) wrote: > >> So, you might say, "it works." Nope. Problems: >> >> 1. I ain't gonna read messages that require me to launch my word > > processor. Mail shouldn't need external word processors or text > > editors. > >Mail programs need, at the very least, text editors, or it becomes >difficult to >compose. Or do you mean that word processors should be integrated into mail >programs? Did you miss the word "external" in my sentence? Let me repeat it for you: "Mail shouldn't need external word processors or text editors." In-line vs. attachment is the issue here. Most of those who have been using the "attachment" setting have belatedly realized their errors and are now in-lining their text. > >> Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message >> signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize these >> are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") > >Luddite. I tried above to be polite. Now this. PLONK. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From schear at lvcm.com Sun Dec 10 17:12:23 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:12:23 -0800 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001210170524.07778570@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:26 AM 12/10/00 -0800, petro wrote: >>On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >>> >From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" >>> >> >>> >THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL >> >>A republic is a form of democracy, a representative one. > > No, it isn't. Quite. And the specter of the Florida legislature selecting a new set of electors are providing one of the best civics educations citizens young and old have had this century. Its really quite healthy to have the myth of democracy we were all taught in grade school laid bare by the reality of a conservative and plain reading of the Constitution by some of the best and brightest. steve From aethr at earthlink.net Sun Dec 10 15:24:39 2000 From: aethr at earthlink.net (Allen Ethridge) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:24:39 -0600 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001210172441-r01010600-0f55b3aa@209.245.227.94> On 11/30/00 at 1:46 AM, tcmay at got.net (Tim May) wrote: > So, you might say, "it works." Nope. Problems: > > 1. I ain't gonna read messages that require me to launch my word > processor. Mail shouldn't need external word processors or text > editors. Mail programs need, at the very least, text editors, or it becomes difficult to compose. Or do you mean that word processors should be integrated into mail programs? > Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message > signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize these > are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") Luddite. > ASCII is where it's at, at least for e-mail. The real issue is a common format. The fact that there is no common format more complex than ASCII is a tribute to the power of corporations over the power of standards - or, perhaps, if one had socialist tendencies, a tribute to the power of corporations over the power of the people - but I'm a fan of standards. From nobody at remailer.ch Sun Dec 10 10:07:01 2000 From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous) Date: 10 Dec 2000 18:07:01 -0000 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <51051bb51d832d4fcda242d01aa002e8@remailer.ch> Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? > > Not very, I think. It seems it's RAH's specialty. It's quite poetic, > actually. http://www.google.com/search?q="geodesic+economy"+-hettinga+-shipwright Linkname: David J. Phillips dissertation, draft for comments, discussion ... URL: http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/sphill/punks.htm Linkname: Executive Summit URL: http://www.icbi-uk.com/cyberetailfinanceforum/Exec-Summ.htm From geronik at csd.uoc.gr Sun Dec 10 08:18:38 2000 From: geronik at csd.uoc.gr (FRANKY) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:18:38 +0200 (EET) Subject: A piece of advice?? Message-ID: Hello to everyone. I'm Alexis and as I'm new to cryptography I would appreciate a piece of advice. I've read the book "Applied Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier and I also have the "ICSA Guide to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more books related to cryptography. Also (if I'm not causing enough trouble already) as I'm trying to secure one system I would like to kindly ask for guidance. How do we apply an algorithm to a whole system? I know how to encode a message , but a system? I know I'm not being very specific, but I don't know much more myself. If it is not that much of a trouble, please enlighten me! Thanx in advance. Alexis From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 18:21:36 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:21:36 -0800 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >At 2:27 PM -0800 12/10/00, petro wrote: >>Mr. May: >> >>> >>>The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of >>>their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the >>>Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web >>>sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several >>>times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But >> I took that statement to mean that if Firestone exercised the >>same level of diligence in the engineering of their tires that most >>web sites used, they would be recalling a *LOT* more tires, enough >>to make the current recall a drop in the bucket. > >Sure, but I was making the point that this is an ironic example, as >it was the records which Firestone and Ford kept of their customers >which allowed them to send recall letters out to those customers! Oh, I wasn't speaking to that--I agree that there is a degree of irony there. I was just replying to the specific sentences quoted. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From rah at shipwright.com Sun Dec 10 15:48:42 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:48:42 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 2:06 PM -0800 on 12/10/00, petro wrote: > RAH whinged ...and in error. My apologies. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sun Dec 10 15:53:42 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:53:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: A piece of advice?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, FRANKY wrote: > to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more > books related to cryptography. amazon.com is one place. see also http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/ for an online copy of the Handbook of Applied Cryptography. > secure one system I would like to kindly ask for guidance. How do we apply > an algorithm to a whole system? I know how to encode a message , but a > system? I'm not sure what you mean by "a whole system." Do you mean something like "how do I take a string of letters and represent it as a number so I can encrypt it?" Then you want to look at ASCII or Unicode and random padding like Optimal Asymmetric Encryption Padding (OAEP). I'm not sure what else you mean. -David From xs24 at netease.com Sun Dec 10 17:56:02 2000 From: xs24 at netease.com (xs24 at netease.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:56:02 -0700 Subject: 10 Million E-Addresses, Stealth Mass Mailer & More.. 19440 Message-ID: <200012110216.SAA28912@cyberpass.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 647 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Dec 10 09:04:12 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:04:12 +0200 (EET) Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: >>>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >>>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >>>economics :-) > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? Not very, I think. It seems it's RAH's specialty. It's quite poetic, actually. >Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here >as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art >for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same >way? Although 'geodesic' does have, through its use in general relativity, some faint echo of 'operates purely based on local information', I think it's a misnomer. People should rather use the term 'distributed' literally, as it's used in computer science. That's the meaning RAH is after, not true? Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 19:04:18 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:04:18 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> References: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> Message-ID: At 2:19 AM +0000 12/11/00, Anonymous wrote: >On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 04:46:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >> >> Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message >> >> signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize >> >> these >> >> are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") > >Apparently, Eudora didn't manage to implement MIME properly within 7 >years. That is unfortunate, but MIME is the right direction >nevertheless. > >A MIME-compliant mail reader without PGP support would just display >the message without the signature, and possible add a note that there >was a signature that could not be verified (or that an attachment >could not be displayed). You're missing the point. Several people set their systems to provide their _entire_ messages as attachments. Riad Wahby acknowledged this, and fixed it. Others did not, so I started filtering them out. Eudora Pro handles MIME just fine. If someone provides a message as an attachment, whether of type JPEG or type MW, then clicking on that attachment icon launches a JPEG viewer or Microsoft Word or whatever. My point is that I don't see the point of expecting readers of a mailing list to open a message in MW or whatever. In-lining usually solves this problem. Signatures, if they exist, can either be verified with another program or with plug-ins to speed up the process. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ashwood at msn.com Sun Dec 10 17:21:59 2000 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:21:59 -0600 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. References: <120171.976443797@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <00c601c06312$3b6f87a0$bf0c9eac@josephas> I guess it's time once again to dig back into the little bag o tricks to destroy an accurate e-vote. Let's take the most recent election in the US, where the highest office actually hinges on the swing of less than 500 voters. Consider if at the same time we had instated a vote from your home initiative. It was publicly known that the race would be close, so activists were out in force. All it would take is 1000 strong willed people, with equally strong willed guns, standing behind terrified voters who would gladly cast their vote anyway the nice man with the big gun told them to. With public voting locations we can certify that this did not happen, with vote from home, the US has laws specifically for the privacy of what happens behind those doors, as long as it's not illegal. Through this those 1000 vote would have gone for and he would have won the election. In spite of the fact that 1000 felonies were committed to get him elected, the voting structure of the united states is such that those votes MUST be counted. I honestly don't care how good the voting system is. I don't care how many people actually vote their conscience. I don't care how many people were simply killed because they lived in an area that favored . A private system is more corruptible than a public one. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Guerra" To: Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:23 AM Subject: CDR: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. > Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that > finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. > > One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure > e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. Looks > like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! > > regards > > robert > > From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Dec 10 09:23:58 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:23:58 +0200 (EET) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <02a101c061b5$1a5225e0$cc38e43f@happycat> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: >So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would >the number be good for? If it could be shown that a consistent estimate exists and it was calculated, it would probably affect the scaling properties of the Net - after all, what are fractal dimensions but numbers relating linear scale changes to changes in measures? Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From rguerra at yahoo.com Sun Dec 10 20:17:15 2000 From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:17:15 -0500 Subject: CDR:Re: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: In article <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0 at golem>, "Me" wrote: > is there any benefit to the 'canadian system' above it's lack of > lawyers? Having a plethora of different standards sure doesn't help.. In Canada, and other countries there is a uniform ballot across the country..something that hopefully will be introduced into the USA real soon. > i dont see why any of these methods are inherently > better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting chads on punch card ballots > speaking of canadian elections, its too bad the canadian alliance > didnt get elected and revoke bill c-68 g, eh? Polls before the election were correct and the alliance didn't win. If somone wants to revoke bill c-68 they will have to wait 5 years until the next elecion. BTW. Many thanks to those of you who have replied to my earlier messages on this topic. I hope to answer you within a day or so. regards robert -- Robert Guerra , Fax: +1(303) 484-0302 WWW Page PGPKeys From seanl at literati.org Sun Dec 10 23:21:09 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:21:09 -0800 Subject: BS about RFC2015 messages being "attachments" In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 07:04:18PM -0800 References: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> Message-ID: <20001210232108.B20537@nietzsche.literati.org> On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 07:04:18PM -0800, Tim May wrote: [...] > You're missing the point. Several people set their systems to provide > their _entire_ messages as attachments. Riad Wahby acknowledged this, > and fixed it. Others did not, so I started filtering them out. Riad "fixed" his software by turning off RFC2015. An "attachment" is a part of a multipart MIME message that is not marked as "inline." Any part that *is* marked inline should be displayed inline by your MUA. If you'll look at the raw messages you're receiving, you'll see that the message bodies of RFC2015 messages are marked as text/plain with a content-disposition of inline, so they're not attachments. To say that people are sending their entire messages as attachments just because your MUA displays them that way, without accepting the possibility that your MUA is broken (it is if it can't understand content-disposition in other multipart types besides multipart/mixed), and claiming "Eurora Pro handles MIME fine" without even understanding yourself how MIME works, is disingenuous at best and a flat lie at worst. Please get your ass off the Internet until you can learn how to use it. Barring that, at least keep your mouth shut for a little while and open your eyes for a change. Given that about 30% of my messages every day come from you and contain very little content, I think you can put up with your MUA's broken display of proper MIME messages or get a new one, and stop giving the rest of us grief about it. (message not signed because it's intended for someone with a broken MUA; it's copied to the list lest someone actually start believing Tim's bullshit) -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/users/seanl/ Key fingerprint = 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 GPG/PGP encrypted/signed email preferred. From seanl at literati.org Sun Dec 10 23:49:58 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:49:58 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 07:04:18PM -0800 References: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> Message-ID: <20001210234957.E20537@nietzsche.literati.org> Sorry, that last one from me was out of line. I'm just tired of being accused of sending my messages as attachments by people with broken MUAs, and then their claiming that their MUA must handle MIME fine because they can click on the pretty little icon and have attachments magically open for them. Having done tech support in the past, I've just heard this sort of excuse one too many times. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/users/seanl/ Key fingerprint = 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 GPG/PGP encrypted/signed email preferred. From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 00:37:17 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:37:17 -0800 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: At 11:17 PM -0500 12/10/00, Robert Guerra wrote: >In article <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0 at golem>, "Me" > wrote: > >> i dont see why any of these methods are inherently >> better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. > >Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting chads on punch >card ballots Clue 1: Hollerith cards are not intended to be read by humans. Clue 2: The first computer count, the second computer count, and in some cases, the third computer count, gave substantially identical results. Clue 3: One party, seeing it was approximately 500-1000 votes behind the other party, initiated a series of diversionary measures, including folderol about butterflies and confused Jews. The diversion lasted long enough for planeloads of New York shysters to arrive. Then the focus shifted to "the will of the people must be listened to." Clue 4: Hollerith cards in banks and corporations around the world are _still _ not read by human eyeballs. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 00:42:31 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:42:31 -0800 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: <20001211013201.A31763@cluebot.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001210170524.07778570@pop3.lvcm.com> <20001211013201.A31763@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 1:32 AM -0500 12/11/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:12:23PM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: >> Quite. And the specter of the Florida legislature selecting a new set of >> electors are providing one of the best civics educations citizens young and >> old have had this century. Its really quite healthy to have the myth of >> democracy we were all taught in grade school laid bare by the reality of a >> conservative and plain reading of the Constitution by some of the best and >> brightest. > >Heh. For every Democrat (and perhaps some Republicans) who goes on TV >and proudly proclaims this perpetual election as a good thing because >it buttresses our civics knowledge, I want to ask: Why don't we >encourage the president, say, to commit a felony? The subsequent >prosecution and conviction would be fascinating to observe and would >*really* educate America's children. Yes, the treatment Bill received after raping Juanita Brodderick was indeed instructive. As was the punishment he received for lying under oath, suborning perjury, tampering with evidence, and (very probably) having witnesses in his scandals killed. (While not _all_ of the several dozen people on the Bill Hit List were victims of foul play, I expect many were. And about 10 standard deviations' worth of deaths as compared to the expected number around other men of similar age --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From declan at well.com Sun Dec 10 22:32:01 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:32:01 -0500 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001210170524.07778570@pop3.lvcm.com>; from schear@lvcm.com on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:12:23PM -0800 References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001210170524.07778570@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20001211013201.A31763@cluebot.com> On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:12:23PM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: > Quite. And the specter of the Florida legislature selecting a new set of > electors are providing one of the best civics educations citizens young and > old have had this century. Its really quite healthy to have the myth of > democracy we were all taught in grade school laid bare by the reality of a > conservative and plain reading of the Constitution by some of the best and > brightest. Heh. For every Democrat (and perhaps some Republicans) who goes on TV and proudly proclaims this perpetual election as a good thing because it buttresses our civics knowledge, I want to ask: Why don't we encourage the president, say, to commit a felony? The subsequent prosecution and conviction would be fascinating to observe and would *really* educate America's children. Of course, I think the perpetual election (see perpetualelection.com) is a good thing for entirely different reasons than those I give above. See: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40200,00.html -Declan From nobody at remailer.ch Sun Dec 10 18:19:18 2000 From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous) Date: 11 Dec 2000 02:19:18 -0000 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 04:46:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >> Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message > >> signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize > >> these > >> are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") Apparently, Eudora didn't manage to implement MIME properly within 7 years. That is unfortunate, but MIME is the right direction nevertheless. A MIME-compliant mail reader without PGP support would just display the message without the signature, and possible add a note that there was a signature that could not be verified (or that an attachment could not be displayed). That is much better than PGP "ASCII armor" where several lines of meaningless characters are displayed to the user. (It is generally not a good idea to use signatures and HTML on mailing lists, but that is an entirely different issue.) From singhalmona at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 02:58:39 2000 From: singhalmona at yahoo.com (Mona Singhal) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 02:58:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Homeworker Message-ID: <20001211105839.9231.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Sir, I am quite serious in working for you. please send me the details of your work. Thanks. Mona Singhal. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From commerce at home.com Mon Dec 11 01:38:43 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 04:38:43 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <003c01c06356$2c4b8d20$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Guerra" > Having a plethora of different standards sure > doesn't help.. In Canada, and other countries > there is a uniform ballot across the country..something > that hopefully will be introduced into the USA real soon. The reason there is a uniform ballot for all federal elections in Canada is that they are all conducted by Elections Canada. Ballots for voting at other levels of government differ greatly from the EC's and each other. What body in the US would have the authority to impose standards for Presidential ballots upon the states? And what problem would it solve? >> i dont see why any of these methods are inherently >> better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. > Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting > chads on punch card ballots for who or what? i, otoh, would think a computer would be more reliable at counting holes in punch cards than scanning for Xes. i'd bet the human would prefer the Xes, tho. as the ballots in florida were intended to be tabulated by comp, the punch card may have been a better choice. From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Dec 11 08:05:11 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:05:11 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A34BAF7.F2F0BCFB@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- James A. Donald: > > Yes, Virginia, not only are there individual evil people, but > > there are entire evil nations that demand and expect that their > > members do evil things, a demand widely supported and forcefully > > encouraged by the people of that nation. Tom Vogt: > evil, of course, is a question of perspective. most of those "evil" > nations/people regard the US pretty much the same way. :-) Stalin and Hitler were especially firm believers in the principle that evil is merely a question of perspective, and thus any nation that got in the way of mass murder, notably the US, was, by their theory, especially evil. Indeed Stalin made "objectivism" a thought crime, punishable by death. By "objectivism" he meant the belief that truth was a matter of fact, rather than authority. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG sGUzebEImqjIGE2qYEUZxQwyALaHoqCWaQOsjcXw 4m3XSJEty7kWxZnNp6n7nk2GGFIzjIkMczsbG1RQT From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 11 05:28:34 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:28:34 -0500 Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From BuySellHardware at netscape.net Mon Dec 11 06:03:13 2000 From: BuySellHardware at netscape.net (BuySellHardware at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:03:13 -0500 Subject: Datamarc- We Buy Surplus Message-ID: <00003930186e$000013f0$0000788d@63.46.201.102> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3666 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rsw at MIT.EDU Mon Dec 11 06:26:52 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:26:52 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001210233028.C20537@nietzsche.literati.org>; from seanl@literati.org on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 11:30:28PM -0800 References: <20001209141853.A6622@positron.mit.edu> <20001210233028.C20537@nietzsche.literati.org> Message-ID: <20001211092652.A20120@positron.mit.edu> "Sean R. Lynch" wrote: > Ummm, Mutt *does* sent the message body as text/plain, and the content-type > of the entire message is multipart/signed. Not sure what you're talking > about here. The content-type of the signature is > application/pgp-signature, which should just be ignored by MUAs that don't > understand RFC2015. That's assuming they recognize multipart/signed as containing parts that can be displayed. The entire problem is that Eudora et al. do not---multipart/signed is unrecognized, so the entire message is treated as unopenable and displayed as an attachment. > And I hope they never add your patch, because people who use broken MUAs > need to suffer, because they're not playing nice with the rest of us. I hope you don't mean this. I don't think there is a Windows MUA that supports RFC2015 at all---are you saying that all Windows users need to suffer? I don't like Windows, but lots of people just can't or don't want to handle anything else. And speaking of not playing nicely, what do you call "...people who use broken MUAs need to suffer..." ? > Thanks, but no thanks, I will *not* break my own MUA to help other people > continue using their own broken MUAs. The Internet is based on standards, > and it's been too long that we've been suffering for those who break the > standards. Witness, for instance, all the pipes that are clogged with > traffic from Windows boxes because they fast start too fast due to their > broken implementations of PGP. I am *sick* and *tired* of people telling > me that I'm somehow sending my messages as attachments when their > content-disposition is inline making them *not* attachments and the > accusors obviously don't have the first clue about MIME works. > > Sorry, I'm just tired, and I want this crap to end. Tim May seems to think > you "acknowledged that we were sending our messages as attachments" and now > considers that carte blanche to filter out RFC2015 messages. He can do > what he likes, but I am upset that he somehow now feels morally justified > doing that due to your harmless little hack. The Internet is based on _suggested_ standards such as RFC2015 (note its disposition---it's not an official standard). No one is forced to comply with them, and those who wish to communicate effectively do their best to use their software in such a way as to be able to do so. It is obvious that you have no wish for the majority of people to be able to read your mail, as you refuse to acknowledge that your messages are not in a format that people support. You hide behind RFC2015, saying "look, I'm following the standard. I must be right." The fact is, there's no "right." It comes down to what you're trying to accomplish. If you're interested in pissing people off and being ignored, then you're doing OK. Otherwise, you might consider backing down on this one. The only thing you're going to acheive is an inability to communicate with the majority of internet users. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 09:32:53 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:32:53 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A34BE57.CCE081D8@ricardo.de> References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> <3A34BE57.CCE081D8@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 12:45 PM +0100 12/11/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >Tim May wrote: >> >> At 1:41 PM +0100 12/8/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >> >Me wrote: >> >> In English it is preferable to write "I wrote," though "Me wrote" is >> honored in some subcultures. > >that part is put in automatically by netscape. I don't usually add >obvious statements like "look, I can write" to my mails. :) > > >anyways, my whole point was that for many people, religion is as or even >more important than law. I'm sure you have a fair share of them as well. >so things can get pretty interesting when 2 such high-level values >collide. more interesting than a collision between, say, the law and a >more-or-less important demand for privacy. > >that's the whole point. I know some people just can't help turning every >spelling error into an attack on their fundamental values, but frankly, >that's not my problem. Lighten up. It was a joke. (I even provided a hint, in the "honored in some cultures.") --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) 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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Dec 11 02:43:13 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:43:13 +0000 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] References: Message-ID: <3A34AFC1.25150EE8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Ray Dillinger wrote: > > It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the US, > to appear in public wearing a mask. > > Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. > > Dunno about other countries and other states. Not at all illegal over here in UK. Banks & some other offices have signs up requesting visitors to remove masks & especially motorbike helmets. Lots of cyclists wear little filter masks or bandanas round their mouths - I suspect it is a style statement more than anything else. In London & some northern cities it isn't at all rare to see Muslim women going completely veiled (though the vast majority don't - it seems to be cultural - some Arabs & East Africans go completely covered, a lot of south Asians & also European Muslims wear headscarves, but don't actually hide their faces. Turks almost never seem to wear veils but then Turks seem to dress more or less the same as Western Europeans these days, at least the ones from Istanbul & Cyprus do, who of course are the vast majority of Turks we see in London (perhaps 5% of the population of the area I live in), maybe things are differnt in Anatolia) I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a law that says the police can tell you to take a mask off. Ken From declan at well.com Mon Dec 11 08:10:33 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:10:33 -0500 Subject: Privacy is another victim of the war on (some) drugs Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001211111025.01510030@mail.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40532,00.html Privacy a Victim of the Drug War by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. Dec. 11, 2000 PST WASHINGTON -- When Indianapolis police stopped James Edmond and Joell Palmer at a drug checkpoint two years ago, the two men didn't merely get peeved. They got even. Edmond and Palmer filed a federal lawsuit claiming the drug-stop violated the Constitution's rule against unreasonable searches, and the Supreme Court recently agreed with them in a 6-3 ruling. But privacy scholars caution that the decision is only a minor victory for the right to be let alone, saying that the 30-year old war on drugs has gradually but persistently eroded privacy rights offline and online. Government officials have repeatedly warned of "drug smugglers" and "money launderers" while asking for encryption export controls, increased wiretap powers, and the authority to conduct infrared scans of homes without search warrants. The FBI claims its controversial Carnivore system is a big help in narcotics investigations. "The Fourth Amendment has been virtually repealed by court decisions, most of which involve drug searches," says Steven Duke, a professor of law at Yale University. Duke is talking about the Fourth Amendment's prohibition against "unreasonable" searches and seizures -- a phrasing that permits courts to decide what kinds of searches are reasonable or not. Since the 1970s, the Supreme Court has largely sided with law enforcement's views, and the justices over time have handed police more surveillance and search authority. The high court has said, for instance, that a search based on an invalid warrant is perfectly OK as long as police acted in "good faith." In Oliver vs. U.S., the justices ruled that police can search a field next to a farmhouse for marijuana plants, even if "No Trespassing" signs are posted and the police trespass was a criminal act in itself. Duke believes the court's ruling in the drug-stop case is mildly encouraging, but not much more. "The Supreme Court's decision is a ray of hope," Duke says. "I would hope that the pendulum might swing a little in the opposite direction. But I don't think we'll get back much of the privacy we've lost. I'd be very surprised if we did." One case that the Supreme Court has agreed to review this term, Kyllo vs. United States, will determine whether police can scan homes from afar -- without a warrant -- using a thermal imaging gun. The practice is becoming increasingly common as cops use the devices to hunt for heat patterns that could indicate pot plants in someone's basement. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals had ruled that "we find no violation of the Fourth Amendment" when police used the Thermovision 210 to examine Danny Lee Kyllo's home and convict him of one count of manufacturing marijuana. [...] Perhaps the most striking intersection between the drug war and privacy is in a rather mundane area of the law: wiretapping. In 1968, state officials conducted 174 wiretaps and the feds none, according to statistics from the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts. By 1999, three decades after President Nixon kicked off the drug war, the number had ballooned to 1,350 wiretaps, with a breakdown of 749 state and 601 federal. Not one request was denied. By last year, the vast majority of the wiretaps had become narcotics-related: 978 of 1,350, according to government figures. "The expansion of federal wiretap activity and authority, which are two distinct concepts, is significant," says Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "It is clearly the case that the war on drugs has increased the number of wiretaps conducted and the number of circumstances where wiretaps can be conducted." [...] ********** John Gilmore adds: >The War on Drugs has certainly trashed the Fourth Amendment (with big >help from the so-called Justice Department and some abuse-apologists >on the Supreme Court), and has been a major reason for privacy >intrusions. The fundamental problem with outlawing consensual crimes >is that none of the participants will report them. To make them >enforceable you need a societal mechanism for monitoring consensual >behavior and reporting it to the police. This is not conducive to >privacy. > >I doubt that ALL privacy invasion has been engendered by the War on >Drugs. NSA's export controls were based on WW2 and Cold War >experience. The Internet has produced a major privacy problem by >making previously hard-to-access or hard-to-correlate records readily >available; search engines have been co-conspirators with the WWW >inventors in building easy cross-indexes. The abuse of census data in >rounding up and imprisoning honest and unindicted US citizens who were >Japanese-Americans was not motivated by the drug war. Marketeers have >not been idle either. > >The drug war-crime makes big problems for whatever lives or policies >it touches, and it has certainly had a big negative impact on privacy. >We would all have much more privacy rights if the drug war had never >happened. Restoring those rights after we end the drug war is going >to be a 50-year project. > > John From tom at ricardo.de Mon Dec 11 03:31:03 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:31:03 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A34BAF7.F2F0BCFB@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > When Jews are murdering small children in reprisals against stone throwing > by young men, and Arabs are blowing up school buses, then anti semitic > statements against both Arabs and Jews become legitimate, indeed required. > > Are you an anti semite, or are you indifferent to the murder of > children. Choose one. > > Yes, Virginia, not only are there individual evil people, but there are > entire evil nations that demand and expect that their members do evil > things, a demand widely supported and forcefully encouraged by the people > of that nation. evil, of course, is a question of perspective. most of those "evil" nations/people regard the US pretty much the same way. :-) From tom at ricardo.de Mon Dec 11 03:45:27 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:45:27 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A34BE57.CCE081D8@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > > At 1:41 PM +0100 12/8/00, Tom Vogt wrote: > >Me wrote: > > In English it is preferable to write "I wrote," though "Me wrote" is > honored in some subcultures. that part is put in automatically by netscape. I don't usually add obvious statements like "look, I can write" to my mails. :) anyways, my whole point was that for many people, religion is as or even more important than law. I'm sure you have a fair share of them as well. so things can get pretty interesting when 2 such high-level values collide. more interesting than a collision between, say, the law and a more-or-less important demand for privacy. that's the whole point. I know some people just can't help turning every spelling error into an attack on their fundamental values, but frankly, that's not my problem. From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 10:56:46 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:56:46 -0600 Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7424@cobra.netsolve.net> Agreed. My understanding of Hettinga's (and this list's, for the most part) use of the term "geodesic" is to indicate the accomplishment of a shortest path between two elemnts via increased individual capabilities and reduced reliance on low-efficiency centralized control, as opposed to the concept of eliminating or reducing centralized control in general just for the sake of itself. I am only part of the way through the geodesic economy texts, myself, but I like to think of the particular form of geodesic architecture implied therein as incorporating some distributed infrastructure as a means to an efficiency gain end. But then, I know fuck all. Am I mistaken? -----Original Message----- From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com] Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 10:49 AM To: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Subject: Re: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > dropped packets, or time or something, and the network certainly *looks* > like a geodesic one, with multiple nodes plugged into lots of lines > routing packets in arbitrary directions instead of up and down a > hierarchy. That's not geodesic, that's a distributed systems with stochastic management algorithms. The epitomy of 'free market' thinking applied to communications engineering. It's certainly non-hierarchical but it isn't 'minimum distance'. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2168 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 11:06:27 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:06:27 -0600 Subject: Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7425@cobra.netsolve.net> An even simpler answer is that, for the most part, biometric devices look cool and get investors and potential customers all moist, but really aren't very good security solutions at all. But yes, I have implemented or seen implemented a few different biometric devices that verify animation of the identifying anatomy. However, as I'm sure you can imagine, that doesn't really make things any better. And after standing in a chilly mantrap for a while with one needle in your arm, another in your hand, and a band around your wrist, you start to think that passwords are pretty neat technology. -----Original Message----- From: R. A. Hettinga [mailto:rah at shipwright.com] Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 9:10 AM To: Jonathan Wienke; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: RE: At 3:00 AM -0800 on 12/9/00, Jonathan Wienke wrote: > Hasn't any seen the movie 6th Day? Who needs a password when you can borrow > the necessary biometric token from its owner if you have a hatchet or decent > knife? The simple answer is that most decent fingerprint readers require a living thumb, either through simple body-heat or, if I remember correctly, bioelectrical measurement. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2557 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 15:51:26 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:51:26 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... Message-ID: At 5:56 PM -0500 12/11/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 9:48 PM +0000 on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > > >> Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >> points on it" > >Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? > Topology is typically not concerned with distance metrics. Doughnuts and coffee cups and all. Geometry is what you're thinking of, presumably. Not as sexy as saying something is "a topologically-invariant geodesic fractally-cleared auction space," but that's what happens when buzzwords are used carelessly. By the way, one topological aspect of a geodesic dome, to go back to that, is that each node is surrounded by some number of neighbors. Applied to a "geodesic economy," this image/metaphor would strongly suggest that economic agents are trading with their neighbors, who then trade with other neighbors, and so on. Tribes deep in the Amazon, who deal only with their neighbors, are then the canonical "geodesic economy." This is precisely the _opposite_ of the mulitiply-connected trading situation which modern systems make possible. So, aside from the cuteness of suggesting a connection with geodesic domes, with buckybits as the currency perhaps?, this all creates confusion rather than clarity. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' ---------------End of Original Message----------------- --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 15:51:26 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:51:26 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: References: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: At 5:56 PM -0500 12/11/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 9:48 PM +0000 on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > > >> Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >> points on it" > >Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? > Topology is typically not concerned with distance metrics. Doughnuts and coffee cups and all. Geometry is what you're thinking of, presumably. Not as sexy as saying something is "a topologically-invariant geodesic fractally-cleared auction space," but that's what happens when buzzwords are used carelessly. By the way, one topological aspect of a geodesic dome, to go back to that, is that each node is surrounded by some number of neighbors. Applied to a "geodesic economy," this image/metaphor would strongly suggest that economic agents are trading with their neighbors, who then trade with other neighbors, and so on. Tribes deep in the Amazon, who deal only with their neighbors, are then the canonical "geodesic economy." This is precisely the _opposite_ of the mulitiply-connected trading situation which modern systems make possible. So, aside from the cuteness of suggesting a connection with geodesic domes, with buckybits as the currency perhaps?, this all creates confusion rather than clarity. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 14:32:31 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:32:31 -0600 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7429@cobra.netsolve.net> I believe it is still illegal in Ulster, though, right? -----Original Message----- From: Ken Brown [mailto:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 4:43 AM To: Ray Dillinger Cc: Mark Allyn; Jim Choate; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Ray Dillinger wrote: > > It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the US, > to appear in public wearing a mask. > > Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. > > Dunno about other countries and other states. Not at all illegal over here in UK. Banks & some other offices have signs up requesting visitors to remove masks & especially motorbike helmets. Lots of cyclists wear little filter masks or bandanas round their mouths - I suspect it is a style statement more than anything else. In London & some northern cities it isn't at all rare to see Muslim women going completely veiled (though the vast majority don't - it seems to be cultural - some Arabs & East Africans go completely covered, a lot of south Asians & also European Muslims wear headscarves, but don't actually hide their faces. Turks almost never seem to wear veils but then Turks seem to dress more or less the same as Western Europeans these days, at least the ones from Istanbul & Cyprus do, who of course are the vast majority of Turks we see in London (perhaps 5% of the population of the area I live in), maybe things are differnt in Anatolia) I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a law that says the police can tell you to take a mask off. Ken -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2824 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sarrison at pacificresearch.org Mon Dec 11 16:41:15 2000 From: sarrison at pacificresearch.org (Sonia Arrison) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:41:15 -0800 Subject: another privacy survey Message-ID: "Ranks of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing" Most Americans support the dissemination of data contained in public records, but they also say that there must be a legitimate legal or social reason for the extraction of this data, according to a recent survey conducted by Privacy and American Business and ORC International. As long as the information is not abused, most Americans support the use of personal data on the Internet for commercial purposes. This support includes the use of home or work addresses by law enforcement, potential employers, or consumer credit companies. Those surveyed believe it is less acceptable to allow private investigators or ordinary citizens to access the information. The 1,000 people surveyed in the report also say that they object to the government posting personally identifiable public information on the Internet unless there are safeguards. These safeguards include the government requiring the consent of the individual before personal information is displayed on public record, and requesting a specific purpose for such information to be displayed on the Internet. Privacy and American Business President Alan Westin says that more Americans now fall into the category of "privacy pragmatist" rather than "privacy fundamentalist." Ron Plesser of Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolf says that the Internet industry must determine how to properly use Social Security numbers. "Regulating the purchase and sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet won't come overnight," Plesser says. http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/1211m.html#item6 From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 14:46:43 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:46:43 -0600 Subject: Personal Firewalls Fail the Leak Test Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C742A@cobra.netsolve.net> Whatever. Comments below. -----Original Message----- From: Nomen Nescio [mailto:nobody at dizum.com] Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 12:00 AM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Personal Firewalls Fail the Leak Test > problem of hacker attacks. Most people don't have any > vulnerabilities; there's nothing a hacker can do to you. So I argue > against the necessity of any kind of inbound blocking tool," said > Gibson. This man is clearly a security genius. > "They do a cryptographic signature of the programs you're allowing. > That's not hard to do, but they're the only ones who do it," he > said. Is it the responsibility of firewall software to do integrity checking? Isn't host-based intrusion detection a different thing altogether? I'm not defending software that is pretty obviously crap, but at least make an intelligent argument on it's weakness. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1626 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 15:10:51 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:10:51 -0600 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C742B@cobra.netsolve.net> James, you are so violently skewed, I'm sea-sick just reading this. Anti-Semite or indifferent to child murder? Is there a third choice? And I might also point out that if you are choosing (correctly, from a technical perspective) to include the Arabs in the general grouping of "Semites", then you must also point out that to avoid being someone who is indifferent to the murder of children, one must be anti-Pope, anti-Jesus, anti-early-Christanity, and anti-cryptanalysis. I don't really buy your generalization, so if you are going to be a vocal bigot, please at least be a little more clear. -----Original Message----- From: James A. Donald [mailto:jamesd at echeque.com] Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:24 AM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: RE: Re: About 5yr. log retention -- Jim Choate wrote: > > Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy concerns but > > property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things to > > those ragheads. Ken Brown wrote: > Jim is turning in to Tim... When Jews are murdering small children in reprisals against stone throwing by young men, and Arabs are blowing up school buses, then anti semitic statements against both Arabs and Jews become legitimate, indeed required. Are you an anti semite, or are you indifferent to the murder of children. Choose one. Yes, Virginia, not only are there individual evil people, but there are entire evil nations that demand and expect that their members do evil things, a demand widely supported and forcefully encouraged by the people of that nation. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG N6hvr8nWXopwCzktuWlQMZpBXyVkyyohyyGfxxcd 4aXcdw/9Raf7wyVHdrlnGQGeL79UzvNj/vRMzjF+p -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3004 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunder at sunder.net Mon Dec 11 14:13:27 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:13:27 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A355187.72D3F39B@sunder.net> David Honig wrote: > > At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > > >An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring > >to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. > > A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. > > Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? > > As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services > in large cities. Physical locks can be picked. I doubt it's worth bothering with unless someone can figure out a good protocol to implement. Why? Simple. Two words: Hardware access. Once you have access to the hardware, including installing both hardware and software sniffers, the game is over. The attacker isn't after your passphrase just to have the passphrase. The attacker is after your data. He wants access to what's in that encrypted email or file. And how does that data get encrypted? You type it in. Or you print or display it. At those two points, someone with hardware access can get to your data without having your passphrase by bugging your keyboard, monitor's output, or printer output. If you type in your messages on the PC and encrypt them before you send them, what's the use? A Keyboard sniffer has already got the message you think you've encrypted. But since you have to type in your passphrase to access the data, they have your passphrase also. Let's go back to using a PDA, ring or other access method: 1. If you simply send your passphrase over a serial port, USB port, IR, ethernet, or any other kind of communications bus, it can be captured. 2. You can do other things such as send the encrypted key to the PDA, have the PDA decrypt it after it asks its owner for a passphrase (and salt with timestamps) but once the key is on the (untrusted) PC, its as good as captured, and so is the data. 3. If you do all the crypto on the PDA (mighty slow unless you've got a beefy PDA) you're choked by the communication method's throughput - which isn't bad over USB. *But* if you display anything on the PC it too can be captured. Bottom line: Unless you can handcuff a notebook to yourself 24/7/365 and never sleep, it's mighty damned hard to trust it. There's always some intrusion vector via the hardware. You can harden your hardware against tampering, which is a guaranteed way to bring up the topic of exploding hard drives, etc. :) And both myself and Tim will tell you "Look in the Archives, we've talked about this to death already." Another option is to have a small portable fully functional computer and just use a big USB/Firewire/SCSI disk to store the encrypted data. Since all the sectors read/written on this drive are encrypted, hardware access to the hard drive gains your attacker nothing. At best they can only damage the drive, which if you have backups is a negligible annoyance. For civilized attackers, remember there is TEMPEST monitoring to worry about. For less civilized attackers: You can be mugged or robbed, but if they get your notebook without the passphrase, it's a waste of their time. So if the notebook is returned to you, sell it on eBay and setup a new one. And at some point, even if you have your notebook with you at all times, you will fall asleep - naturally or with the help of a sleeping pill in your drink, etc. When you do, your attacker has physical access to your notebook, and to you. And when you wake, you may find the rubber hoses awaiting deployment. Now, for extra credit, dear punks, mull over a protocol or way to prevent the above attack vectors. And be sure to include a special passphrase for the rubber hose treatments. Perhaps a few layers of them, so when they beat you for the 2nd passphrase you can give them a slightly more incriminating passphrase, but still not a fully damaging one. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 11 14:56:28 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:56:28 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> References: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: At 9:48 PM +0000 on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two > points on it" Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From kstkbg at hotmail.com Mon Dec 11 20:39:52 2000 From: kstkbg at hotmail.com (Karst Starkenburg) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:39:52 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks References: Message-ID: If what you are looking for is an estimate of fractal dimensions in the Internet, look at the following paper, which was published in the 1999 ACM/SIGCOMM conference: On Power-Law Relationships of the Internet Topology, Michalis Faloutsos, University of California at Riverside; Petros Faloutsos, University of Toronto; and Christos Faloutsos, Carnegie Mellon University. Power laws are measurable, and somewhat related to the "fractal" nature. According to the measurement described in the paper, the Internet topology is, in fact, fractal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sampo A Syreeni" To: "Carol A Braddock" Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:23 AM Subject: CDR: Re: Fractal geodesic networks > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: > > >So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would > >the number be good for? > > If it could be shown that a consistent estimate exists and it was > calculated, it would probably affect the scaling properties of the Net - > after all, what are fractal dimensions but numbers relating linear scale > changes to changes in measures? > > Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university > > From ben at algroup.co.uk Mon Dec 11 13:48:43 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:48:43 +0000 Subject: Questions of size... References: Message-ID: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> What???? Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. Saying that it has anything to do with distributed systems is making it up as you go along. And if RAH is now going to claim that's what he meant then he's making it up as he goes along, too (well, we knew that anyway, but redefining geodesic in this way is going too far). Cheers, Ben. "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > > --- begin forwarded text > > Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:04:12 +0200 (EET) > From: Sampo A Syreeni > To: Ray Dillinger > cc: > Subject: Re: Questions of size... > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Reply-To: Sampo A Syreeni > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > >>>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got > >>>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of > >>>economics :-) > > > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? > > Not very, I think. It seems it's RAH's specialty. It's quite poetic, > actually. > > >Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here > >as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art > >for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same > >way? > > Although 'geodesic' does have, through its use in general relativity, some > faint echo of 'operates purely based on local information', I think it's a > misnomer. People should rather use the term 'distributed' literally, as it's > used in computer science. That's the meaning RAH is after, not true? > > Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university > > --- end forwarded text > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From declan at well.com Mon Dec 11 19:45:00 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:45:00 -0500 Subject: Yet Another Survey: Americans have become privacy pragmatists Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001211224431.015c9060@mail.well.com> [Originally sent to politech at politechbot.com. --DBM] --- [I believe Americans care a lot about privacy invasions _when they don't have a choice_ -- such as cops sniffing your house for illegal drugs with airborne drones or Thermovision 210s. But when Americans _get to choose_ whether to give up their privacy in exchange for something of value, they often do. Just look at Safeway discount cards (and, in DC, Fresh Fields discount cards). Obviously not all choices -- health insurance comes to mind -- are as clear. But I don't think Americans will pay a lot extra to protect their privacy. How many Internet consumer-privacy firms have succeeded? --Declan] ******* From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Dec 11 20:59:50 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:59:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Karst Starkenburg wrote: > Power laws are measurable, and somewhat related to the "fractal" nature. > According to the measurement described in the paper, the Internet topology > is, in fact, fractal. There is no such thing as 'the Internet topology'. There are many topologies and protocols. Some aspects are fractal, some are not. If you're talking strictly of the connectivity diagram, it is certainly self-similar (which would account for the power law, I made reference to a similar power law, m/4, that is used in biology related to branching) and space filing, but that doesn't make it self similar enough to qualify for 'fractal' in the strictest sense of the word. Different branches, while they are both branches, wouldn't share enough common sub-structures to have similar fractal dimensions, and it still retain any convenience from a global perspective. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 11 20:22:09 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:22:09 -0500 Subject: "Anarchism vs. Right-Wing 'Anti-Statism' Message-ID: http://www.ainfos.ca/en/ainfos05508.html Looks like the Wobblies live... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From sunilpandith at usa.net Tue Dec 12 03:11:23 2000 From: sunilpandith at usa.net (sunil pandith) Date: 12 Dec 00 04:11:23 MST Subject: Info..help Message-ID: <20001212111123.23934.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Dear Sir, I am an engineering student. I am interested in real time encryption of = voice using a DSP kit and a stream cipher., Kindly send me the link = where the algorithm is available... I am in need of the white paper or similar thing, which is going to = explain me the algoritm clearly, thanking you, sunil ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From Somebody Tue Dec 12 07:02:26 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:02:26 -0700 Subject: Questions of size... Message-ID: Bob, The distinction between geometry, topology, and, presumably, homology, begs the question. You, following Huber, have used the word geodesic to refer to connections of minimal cost. In the economic manifold (surface) this is presumably the only important metric (local distance function). The analogy is mathematically precise in all respects, and therefore correct. I'd have flogged you into submission long before this if it were not so. Geodesics, or more properly, geodesic paths, are locally defined. There is not necessarily a geodesic between two specific points. In a differentiable manifold with a sufficiently smooth metric, there are geodesic paths in every direction through every point, however. Whether there is one of those paths going to some other given point is a question of connectivity and other topological issues. Two separate spheres are a single differential manifold. No great circle path -- the geodesics of each surface -- connects any point on one sphere with any point of the other. Unfortunately, geodesics may also be the longest paths between two points. Just go the wrong way on the great circle determined by two ends of the Mass Ave bridge. It's a path of stationary length: slight variations in the path make hardly any difference in its length. Unfortunately its length is maximum rather than minimum. By the way, have I mentioned that I HATE it when I agree with Tim? ------------------------ From: "R. A. Hettinga" Subject: Re: Questions of size... Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:16:57 -0500 To: Some People, Privately --- begin forwarded text From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Dec 12 08:50:06 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:50:06 -0800 Subject: "Anarchism vs. Right-Wing 'Anti-Statism' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001212082358.0237fb10@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 11:22 PM 12/11/2000 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > http://www.ainfos.ca/en/ainfos05508.html > > Looks like the Wobblies live... The wobblies never lived. In the USA, class struggle unionism collapsed at the end of the nineteenth century. The wobblies were a "union" composed almost entirely of the leadership of vanished class struggle unions, with very few actual workers among their membership. All chiefs, no indians. From the very beginning in 1905, the wobblies were a nostalgic look back to the glory days of the 1870s and 1880s of class struggle unionism, as if in 1980 some forty year old ex hippies were to form a commune in memory of the sixties. During the early days of unionism, the 1870s, many unionists believed that the union was destined to replace the capitalist. Some of them believed the union would replace the capitalist while retaining the market economy in whole or part (syndicalism) and some believed the union would replace the capitalist and the entire market economy (socialism, one big union) In some parts of America they actually had some substantial success with this program. It then instantly became apparent that replacing the authority of the man who pays you, with the authority of the man you elected, was not an improvement, because the man you elected (claiming to be "the workers") claimed the authority to punish individual workers who did not do as they were told, whereas the unelected man with money claimed no such authority. After several horrifying incidents in which unions indiscriminantly murdered numerous members of the working class, class struggle unionism became violently unpopular among the working class in the USA. It then steadily and rapidly lost power to bread and butter unionism, sometimes voted out, and sometimes, when the violence of the class struggle union made voting and competition impossible, crushed by the militia. After all the class struggle unions had irrevocably lost power or been crushed, the washed up remnants of their leadership, remembering the glory days of their youth, formed the IWW, the wobblies, from remnants of the leadership groups of 57 different class struggle unions. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG SMD7xSkJ6JMdVcy9MegPQnRKEudA52hh9CVA4W14 4zka+pWxZEcihvPyDXbhTOTW1YuC93TklE6KwF97g From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Dec 12 09:09:04 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:09:04 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A3620D5.E284CEA6@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Tom Vogt: > > > evil, of course, is a question of perspective. most of those > > > "evil" nations/people regard the US pretty much the same way. > > > :-) James A. Donald: > > Stalin and Hitler were especially firm believers in the principle > > that evil is merely a question of perspective, Tom Vogt: > and you seriously believe you can debunk a point by pointing out > that there's a few assholes among its followers? oh, come on. If morality is merely relative, then what is wrong with murdering a few million jews, kulaks, or people as irritating as James A. Donald? All a matter of perspective, isn't it? > "evil" could, I believe, be *defined* as "the term pretty much > everyone uses to describe his or her enemies". People who use this definition have a disturbing tendency to define entire social groups, races, classes, as their enemies. The reason we define certain killings as murder is not because "the bible tells us so", but because we want to know if a killing indicates that the killer is apt to kill murderously. In practice we notice that one piece of metal is like another, and other kinds of metal unlike, and we call one such group of pieces of metal "iron", "iron" being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. The naming does not make it iron, but the character of the metal itself. Similarly we observe that one deed, and one man, is like another, and another unlike, and we call one such group of men and deeds "evil", "evil" being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. Let us look at how real people in real life use the word "evil": Immediately after the bombing of Serbia, lots of US government officials went out on TV to argue that the bombing of Serbia was necessary and advisable because the ruler of Serbia was "evil". I do not have a transcript, but it seemed clear to me that they did not argue that he was evil, therefore deserved to have his soldiers blown up, but instead argued that he was evil, therefore his soldiers were likely to cause harm, therefore it was a wise precaution to blow his soldiers up. They unhesitatingly drew an empirical conclusion from a normative fact, and they reasonably expected that everyone listening would find the alleged normative fact compelling evidence for the empirical conclusion. They crossed the "is ought gap" without the slightest difficulty, and so does everyone else except for monsters and philosophers. I find it striking that many of the philosophers who have such great difficulty with this alleged gap have some connection to monstrous regimes. Not all of them by any means, but most of them. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG ILP99SyVaIkmx215wqr43UJJ0hQduNWeaZ0/k7GM 4mzrCxbxrsnsEX63mRLtarq6nQ94evNZW18Avove4 From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Dec 12 09:19:09 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:19:09 -0800 Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz Message-ID: <3A365E0D.9A5C7412@lsil.com> Bob, We *do* all trade with our neighbors so your term is only trouble when looking at the wrong part of the geometry. With trade the measure should not be based on physical space or network geometry, those are transient and permutable, rather the measure should be based on the proximity of the parties in terms of goods consumed, goods produced and pricing. The networks are not electrical or geographical they're economic. So while it does affect cost all this communication and transportation technology is only the physical layer. Mike From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 12 09:47:10 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:47:10 -0800 Subject: Info..help In-Reply-To: <20001212111123.23934.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001212094710.009f3c20@idiom.com> At 04:11 AM 12/12/00 MST, sunil pandith wrote: >Dear Sir, >I am an engineering student. I am interested in real time encryption of = >voice using a DSP kit and a stream cipher., Kindly send me the link = >where the algorithm is available... > >I am in need of the white paper or similar thing, which is going to = >explain me the algoritm clearly, You're an engineering student, and since you're on USA.NET, I'd assume you're in the US. So go to your school's library, and get a copy of books on cryptography - I'd recommend Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography". It's got a bibliography with over 1000 references, so you should be able to use your library to look up more detail about anything that Schneier talks about. You're talking about "The Algorithm" like there's only one. There are lots. Read Schneier, pick an algorithm, and explain your selection to your professor. Think about the security of the algorithm, things you need to be careful of for using it securely, the performance needs of the algorithm, the capabilities of your DSP and programming environment and the things you'll need to do to implement it. How do you plan to exchange keys? Are there algorithms that are designed for that? What weaknesses do they have? How do you plan to test your system, to be sure the data is really encrypted? Also think about how you'll handle the voice itself. What are your input formats? What's your networking environment? Do you need to do compression? How much bandwidth will your network have? How much computational ability does your DSP have? Are there standard algorithm libraries available for your DSP, or will you need to roll your own? What constraints on voice quality do you have? Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 12 10:08:31 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:08:31 -0800 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator Message-ID: With all of the talk recently of recursively-settled agoric market spaces, multidimensional geodesic actor systems, and other jargon-heavy marketbuzz, I've made up a little table of recommended names. Someone could make a little Perl or Python script to let the computers do all the work. The idea is to take a couple of sexy terms from Columns 1 and 2 and apply them to a noun from Column 3. Care should be taken to use terms which evoke images from relativity, quantum mechanics, artificial life, and other trendy areas. Anything that triggers images from "Star Trek" is good. Here it goes: Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Distributed Fractal Market Geodesic Coaseian Ecosystem Holographic Geodesic Space Multiply-connected Biometric Ecology Least Action Parameterized Continuum Recursively-settled Holographic Cyberspace Fractal Multidimensional Bazaar Bionomic Distributed Hyperspace Agoric Auction Topology Best of breed Metric Metaverse Dark Fiber Anarchic Arena Open-system Quantized Manifold Anarcho-topological Hayekian Actor system Examples of usage: "Digital Datawhack is premised on the principle of creating distributed biometric agoric arenas." "The Von Mises Corporation is the dominant player in deploying recursively-settled holographic actor systems. It is our goal to make agoric, open-system market topologies the bionomic norm." "Fractalbucks are the unit of currency in the Hayekworld bazaar-type open Coaseian system. We believe it to be best of breed in the dark fiber geodesic market space." Glad to be of help. --Tim May, Aptical Foddering Marketspace V.P. -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 07:23:28 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:23:28 -0500 Subject: Biometric serial murder... Message-ID: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=003976162830991&rtmo=LxLdbLhd&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/00/12/12/waus12.html ISSUE 2027 Tuesday 12 December 2000 Outback killers tortured 10 victims By Barbie Dutter in Adelaide Magistrate gags bodies- in barrels case - [12 Dec '00] - News.com.au Snowtown murders [9 Jun '00] - The Age Snowtown: a bank vaults deadly math - The Crime Library THE grisly details of Australia's worst serial killing began to unfold yesterday as a court was told how eight mutilated bodies were discovered dumped in barrels inside the vault of a disused bank in a tiny Outback township. John Bunting, Mark Haydon and Robert Wagner are accused of murdering 10 people between December 1995 and May 1999. James Vlassakis is accused of five murders. All four refused to enter a plea. The killings were allegedly carried out as part of a macabre social security fraud. Most of the eight men and two women killed had close associations - including, in some cases, family ties - with those accused of their murder. Elizabeth Haydon, was a mother of eight married to one of the accused. Wendy Abraham QC, opening the prosecution case, said the four had collected the welfare benefits and disability allowances of their dead victims. They even impersonated some of those they had killed to conduct banking transactions or to deal with the social security office. Before being murdered, some of the victims were made to repeat scripted phrases, which were taped and left on the answering machines of their relatives and friends to divert suspicion from their disappearance, she said. ) Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2000. Terms & Conditions of reading. Commercial information. Privacy Policy. Information about www.telegraph.co.uk. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From seanl at literati.org Tue Dec 12 10:34:16 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:34:16 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 09:09:04AM -0800 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <3A3620D5.E284CEA6@ricardo.de> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <20001212103416.A25694@literati.org> On Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 09:09:04AM -0800, James A. Donald wrote: [...] > If morality is merely relative, then what is wrong with murdering a few > million jews, kulaks, or people as irritating as James A. Donald? All a > matter of perspective, isn't it? Believing that evil is a matter of perspective does not necessarily make one a moral relativist. I believe that both good and evil do not exist objectively. However, I don't kill people because a) I would feel bad about it and b) I don't want people killing me back, and c) The type of society I'd like to live in wouldn't function very well if people just went around killing each other willy nilly. > > "evil" could, I believe, be *defined* as "the term pretty much > > everyone uses to describe his or her enemies". > > People who use this definition have a disturbing tendency to define entire > social groups, races, classes, as their enemies. I fully agree with this definition, yet I don't define anyone to be my "enemy" except those who deliberately stand in the way of the things I want to do (nobody right now except maybe the govt). > The reason we define certain killings as murder is not because "the bible > tells us so", but because we want to know if a killing indicates that the > killer is apt to kill murderously. I'm assuming by murderously you mean arbitrarily, which makes them a danger to others. > In practice we notice that one piece of metal is like another, and other > kinds of metal unlike, and we call one such group of pieces of metal > "iron", "iron" being our word for that commonality that makes them > alike. The naming does not make it iron, but the character of the metal > itself. > > Similarly we observe that one deed, and one man, is like another, and > another unlike, and we call one such group of men and deeds "evil", "evil" > being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. When you call someone evil, you're begging the question of their evilness. I've heard lots of people (including myself) called evil to further someone else's aims, that the word no longer has any meaning any more. I'd rather hear "he kills arbitrarily" than "he's evil." I do use the term "evil" occasionally, but it's usually referring to ideas or nasty hacks, and usually in a jocular fashion. > Let us look at how real people in real life use the word "evil": > > Immediately after the bombing of Serbia, lots of US government officials > went out on TV to argue that the bombing of Serbia was necessary and > advisable because the ruler of Serbia was > "evil". I do not have a transcript, but it seemed clear to me that they > did not argue that he was evil, therefore deserved to have his soldiers > blown up, but instead argued that he was evil, therefore his soldiers were > likely to cause harm, therefore it was a wise precaution to blow his > soldiers up. > > They unhesitatingly drew an empirical conclusion from a normative fact, and > they reasonably expected that everyone listening would find the alleged > normative fact compelling evidence for the empirical conclusion. > > They crossed the "is ought gap" without the slightest difficulty, and so > does everyone else except for monsters and philosophers. I find it > striking that many of the philosophers who have such great difficulty with > this alleged gap have some connection to monstrous regimes. Not all of > them by any means, but most of them. At first I thought in this section you were arguing against this particular use of the term 'evil,' and then you go on to say that the use of this term made it possible for the govt to convince people that bombing Serbia was a good thing without having to argue about it, and you say that this is good? How many other groups of people do you think have been convinced to do violence this way? I guess it's OK when the US does it, but not OK when Hitler calls Jews evil? Evil *is* a subjective concept, and whenever you hear it you should immediately become *very* suspicious and ask why, regardless of whether you think it's obvious that someone's evil, because I think sometimes the answer will surprise you. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/~seanl/ "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem!" -Ronald Reagan, 1984 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 07:51:59 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:51:59 -0500 Subject: Geodesic Definition from a Mathematician (PhD, MIT, 197BLA) Re: Questions of size... Message-ID: ...who like most of us, agrees with Tim *lots* more often than he likes to admit. :-). Cheers, RAH Who won't wax (too) rhapsodic about how Tim, in his Amazonian example below, described a "geodesic recursive auction" (digital silk road, Hughes "piracy" market, whatever) ... --- begin forwarded text From announce at lga2.nytimes.com Tue Dec 12 08:00:51 2000 From: announce at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:00:51 -0500 Subject: Find more of what's inside NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012121604.LAA13625@mail.virtual-estates.net> Dear Member, Thanks for joining the NYTimes.com community. We hope that you are finding our site to be an excellent source of insightful news coverage, in-depth analysis and the best in arts and entertainment. There are a lot of new and useful features on NYTimes.com that may not be immediately evident on our home page. I'd like to take a moment to introduce some of them to you. -- Choose from a broad selection of exclusive daily e-mail newsletters ranging from breaking news alerts and daily headline summaries to weekly updates on the latest movies and books: http://email.nytimes.com/email/email.jsp?cub -- Search the past two weeks of articles from major news sections, free of charge: http://search.nytimes.com/search/?cub -- Play today's New York Times Crossword Puzzle for free using our special Java-based solver. Take your best shot, then come back the next day for the answers. http://www.nytimes.com/diversions?cub -- Get the latest news, information and entertainment on your mobile phone wherever you are, through our Wireless Application Protocol (WAP) enabled news service. Key in [wap.nytimes.com] on any WAP-enabled mobile phone, or visit this page for more information: http://www.nytimes.com/services/nytmobile?cub -- Send NYTimes.com articles to your friends and colleagues. Look for the new "E-mail This Article" link at the top and bottom of most articles on the site. Thanks again for your interest in NYTimes.com. To comment on any aspect of our site or services, feel free to write to us at comments at nytimes.com. We hope you'll make a point of visiting us today and every day. Sincerely, Rich Meislin, Editor in Chief New York Times Digital ABOUT THIS E-MAIL ---- This is a one-time e-mail. As a member of the BBBOnline Privacy Program and the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy. Please do not reply to this e-mail. From carskar at netsolve.net Tue Dec 12 09:50:39 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:39 -0600 Subject: Questions of size... Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C742E@cobra.netsolve.net> Comments below: > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:51 PM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: Questions of size... > > By the way, one topological aspect of a geodesic dome, to go back to > that, is that each node is surrounded by some number of neighbors. > Applied to a "geodesic economy," this image/metaphor would strongly > suggest that economic agents are trading with their neighbors, who > then trade with other neighbors, and so on. > > Tribes deep in the Amazon, who deal only with their neighbors, are > then the canonical "geodesic economy." I would disagree with the supporting logic here. You could theoretically conclude that such systems were geodesic in nature if you really wanted to, but it would be due to the fact that there is a minimum economic distance (cost, perhaps) in dealings between participants. I don't think it is safe to say that these transactions are canonically geodesic, unless you are also willing to propose that the "surface" of the economic structure is bound inseperably to the geography of the planet. I believe that when we are talking about a distance metric associated with the structure of economic transactions (we are talking about transactions, right?), the most natural metric to be used in geodesic economics would be cost. That's not to say that I have, at this point, read any material that makes a great logical case for the geodesic nature of the economic transactions that Mr. Hettinga describes. I am currently operating on a little blind faith and a big hunch when assuming for the sake of conversation that Mr. Hettinga's proposed transactions would be reduced-cost. It just seems to make sense. I agree with you, Mr. May, that a seemingly geodesic economomic system can be achieved through localization of the market and direct trade. I do not believe that localization is a defining element of a geodesic economy. It seems that a broad move toward localization being in-efficient in our own economy (one would have to prove this, and why), the concepts that Mr. Hettinga proposes may provide a working substitute for localization, by proposing a means of direct interaction between parties that breaks geographical limitations, and thereby reducing E.D. (economic distance). Again, one would have to prove that cost is a good metric for E.D., and then one would have to prove that Mr. Hettinga's proposals result in reduced cost in transactions. It's a tough case, but my hunch sides with Mr. Hettinga. > This is precisely the _opposite_ of the mulitiply-connected trading > situation which modern systems make possible. > > So, aside from the cuteness of suggesting a connection with geodesic > domes, with buckybits as the currency perhaps?, this all creates > confusion rather than clarity. > > > --Tim May > -- > (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the > election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. > Stay tuned.) > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4780 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 12 12:03:40 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:03:40 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> References: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: At 7:42 PM +0000 12/12/00, Ben Laurie wrote: >Sampo A Syreeni wrote: >> >> On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: >> >> >Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >> >points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. >> >> No question about it. The term also doesn't mean a whole lot when applied >> as-is in the many instances it is on this list. As Tim put it, it pretty >> much equates to "cyberpunkish". > >Not being subscribed to cypherpunks (has S/R improved?) I will have >missed that. Signal happens when good writers contribute good articles. Noise happens in the expected ways. Noise is what the delete key, and filters, were made for. As you are apparently reading this from the "DBS" list, you are not seeing any of my contributions. Regrettfully, DBS (and DCSB, or Bearebucks, or whatever Bob is calling his list(s)) is not an "open system." The Cypherpunks tried such a censored list a few years ago, and we rejected the approach. I wrote a large article debunking the "geodesics is about topology" point of view. Others have said similar things. Please don't contribute articles to the Cypherpunks list if you are, as you say, not subscribed. While we don't reject articles by nonsubscribers, as per the above, it is tacky and rude for nonsubscribers to address articles to lists they are not tracking. Thank you, --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 09:40:57 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:40:57 -0500 Subject: [Press Release List] Zero-Knowledge Systems Unveils Free, Easy-To-Use Freedom 2.0 Inte rnet Privacy Suite: The Most Comprehensive Internet Privacy And Security Tool Available Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl Tue Dec 12 04:00:32 2000 From: mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl (Anonymous Remailer) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:00:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring ing NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: <3A30E45F.9FA91C35@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: Ken Brown wrote: > In every office or factory I've ever been in, including government ones > where we kept paper copies of tax returns (yes folks, I have worked for > the Inland Revenue) there are cleaners. They seem to come in 3 kinds - > middle-aged black women, African students working their way through > college, and people with vaguely asiatic features who sound as if they > are speaking Portuguese. The latter would probably be Phillipinos. From frissell at panix.com Tue Dec 12 10:18:09 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:18:09 -0500 Subject: FC: Yet Another Survey: Americans have become privacy pragmatists In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001211205025.015929d0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001212130804.04ac9900@popserver.panix.com> >Business President Alan Westin says that more Americans now fall into the >category of "privacy pragmatist" rather than "privacy fundamentalist." Ron >Plesser of Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolf says that the Internet industry >must determine how to properly use Social Security numbers. "Regulating >the purchase and sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet won't >come overnight," Plesser says. Damn few "privacy fundamentalists" out there. Most "privacy advocates" support massive government privacy invasions including the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended, the Census Bureau, and the various state DMVs. Unless a "privacy advocate" is prepared to call for the elimination of the above privacy invading institutions or at least their conversion to anonymous credential technology, then I submit that they are *not* privacy advocates at all. As for the eternal SS# question, Amex and Discover will currently give you "one time use" cc numbers to use over the nets. A consumer-friendly government could do the same. Particularly since they already have the institutional setup in place. Anyone who forms an entity of any kind that has US tax implications (sole proprietorship, partnership, trust, estate, corporation, etc.) can/must apply for a taxpayer ID number (TIN). The Feds could issue them to the rest of us for one-time use. DCF I knew America was in trouble when I found that the application to join the Sons of the American Revolution asks for your Social Security Number. From sunder at sunder.net Tue Dec 12 10:28:29 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:28:29 -0500 Subject: fingerprint mouse. References: Message-ID: <3A366E4D.EB85336E@sunder.net> Tim May wrote: > > I wonder how long before a court-authorized measure will be simply > mugging a target and cutting off his ID finger. > > When government adopts the MO of the thief, all things are possible. What? You mean they haven't already? :) -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From tom at ricardo.de Tue Dec 12 04:57:57 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:57:57 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A3620D5.E284CEA6@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > > evil, of course, is a question of perspective. most of those "evil" > > nations/people regard the US pretty much the same way. :-) > > Stalin and Hitler were especially firm believers in the principle that evil > is merely a question of perspective, and you seriously believe you can debunk a point by pointing out that there's a few assholes among its followers? oh, come on. > and thus any nation that got in the > way of mass murder, notably the US, was, by their theory, especially > evil. Indeed Stalin made "objectivism" a thought crime, punishable by > death. By "objectivism" he meant the belief that truth was a matter of > fact, rather than authority. "evil" could, I believe, be *defined* as "the term pretty much everyone uses to describe his or her enemies". on the other hand, I don't know many people who don't consider themselves righteous, good, etc. thinking about it, objective is a word that has been abused quite a lot by virtually any faction in power during a given time. it's not been too long since the existence of god, heaven and hell was an "objective fact". stalins definition of "objectivism", as you repeat it above, is just one more of those abuses. what you say is merely that he called everyone who opposed his philosophy by that term. however, in most of the worlds we're living in today, the label of a thing is seperate from the thing itself. From alan at clueserver.org Tue Dec 12 14:02:03 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:02:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was > spoken by a Canadian!?! Better yet -- John Young. ]:> alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From tom at ricardo.de Tue Dec 12 05:04:47 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:04:47 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> <3A34BE57.CCE081D8@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A36226F.C8F7C3B9@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > Lighten up. It was a joke. > > (I even provided a hint, in the "honored in some cultures.") sorry, I've been working overtime on some stuff here lately, and I was too tired to get it. also, I'm tired of the nitpicking some people here exhibit as if there were nothing more important to do than ignore the main point of a posting and nibble on the minor errors. From sreenivasa.prasad at digital.com Tue Dec 12 00:42:30 2000 From: sreenivasa.prasad at digital.com (Prasad, Sreenivasa) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:12:30 +0530 Subject: Need your help. Message-ID: <177E503C4DA3D311BC9D0008C791C30601E6DD8A@diexch01.xko.dec.com> Hi, I have a query wrt 'file' command in unix. When I give the following command the following information is displayed. # file /usr/bin/ABSgtar /usr/bin/ABSgtar: COFF format alpha dynamically linked, demand paged executable or object module not stripped - Version 3.13-12. My question is what is this version number ? I am sure this is not the version of the file in SCCS/RCS. Thanks and Regards, V.Sreenivasa Prasad. Digital Equipment India Limited, 93 A, Industrial Suburb, Yeshwanthpur II Stage, Bangalore - 560 022 India. Phone (O): +91-080-3374785 Ext: 2860 Fax : +91-080-3371498 Email: sreenivasa.prasad at digital.com vs_p at hotmail.com From WSchott at 42001.pjc.com Tue Dec 12 12:14:50 2000 From: WSchott at 42001.pjc.com (Schott, Wayne) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:14:50 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <8C16E34081B1D211BF50006094B976DB07AEDA@DESDESS2> ___________________________________________________________________________ http://www.piperjaffray.com Nondeposit investment products are not insured by the FDIC, are not deposits or other obligations of or guaranteed by U.S. Bank National Association or its affiliates, and involve investment risks, including possible loss of the principal amount invested. Past performance does not guarantee future results. We consider our sources reliable. Accuracy and completeness are not guaranteed. 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Securities products and services are offered through U.S. Bancorp Piper Jaffray Inc., member SIPC and NYSE, Inc., a subsidiary of U.S. Bancorp. ___________________________________________________________________________ From amberdeones at mediaone.net Tue Dec 12 15:02:16 2000 From: amberdeones at mediaone.net (JAMES A MOONEY) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:02:16 -0800 Subject: matrix coat Message-ID: <000801c0648f$92df9100$1f991818@we.mediaone.net> go to trenchco.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 312 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at algroup.co.uk Tue Dec 12 07:28:54 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:28:54 +0000 Subject: Questions of size... References: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <3A364436.F75BB1E5@algroup.co.uk> "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > > At 9:48 PM +0000 on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > > > Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two > > points on it" > > Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? Indeed. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From declan at well.com Tue Dec 12 13:04:57 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:04:57 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> Here you go: http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi -Declan At 10:08 12/12/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >With all of the talk recently of recursively-settled agoric market spaces, >multidimensional geodesic actor systems, and other jargon-heavy >marketbuzz, I've made up a little table of recommended names. > >Someone could make a little Perl or Python script to let the computers do >all the work. > >The idea is to take a couple of sexy terms from Columns 1 and 2 and apply >them to a noun from Column 3. Care should be taken to use terms which >evoke images from relativity, quantum mechanics, artificial life, and >other trendy areas. Anything that triggers images from "Star Trek" is good. > >Here it goes: > > >Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 > >Distributed Fractal Market > >Geodesic Coaseian Ecosystem > >Holographic Geodesic Space > >Multiply-connected Biometric Ecology > >Least Action Parameterized Continuum > >Recursively-settled Holographic Cyberspace > >Fractal Multidimensional Bazaar > >Bionomic Distributed Hyperspace > >Agoric Auction Topology > >Best of breed Metric Metaverse > >Dark Fiber Anarchic Arena > >Open-system Quantized Manifold > >Anarcho-topological Hayekian Actor system > > >Examples of usage: > >"Digital Datawhack is premised on the principle of creating distributed >biometric agoric arenas." > >"The Von Mises Corporation is the dominant player in deploying >recursively-settled holographic actor systems. It is our goal to make >agoric, open-system market topologies the bionomic norm." > >"Fractalbucks are the unit of currency in the Hayekworld bazaar-type open >Coaseian system. We believe it to be best of breed in the dark fiber >geodesic market space." > >Glad to be of help. > > >--Tim May, Aptical Foddering Marketspace V.P. > > > >-- >(This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the >election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) > From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 13:25:49 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:25:49 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 4:04 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi Great. Now all we need is one of those translators, like the one that turns text into something the Muppet's Swedish Chef would say... :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Tue Dec 12 13:29:02 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:29:02 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was spoken by a Canadian!?! -Declan At 16:25 12/12/2000 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 4:04 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi > >Great. > >Now all we need is one of those translators, like the one that turns text >into something the Muppet's Swedish Chef would say... > >:-). > >Cheers, >RAH >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 13:43:35 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:43:35 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 4:29 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was > spoken by a Canadian!?! :-). Ooo! Oooo! A canadian *cryptographer*!!! Bomb Canada... (Yes, I get the joke, and consider myself properly spanked. I'll go see *myself* how the Swedish Chef thing works. It can't be that hard, right?) Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Tue Dec 12 14:08:45 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:08:45 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001212170757.015469c0@mail.well.com> At 14:02 12/12/2000 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote: >Better yet -- John Young. ]:> Modern computer science has not advanced sufficiently to accomplish such a feat. :) -Declan From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 14:28:39 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:28:39 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 4:43 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > (Yes, I get the joke, and consider myself properly spanked. I'll go see > *myself* how the Swedish Chef thing works. It can't be that hard, right?) As Senior Wences(sp?) used to say, "Eeesy for jou to say, for me, ees deeficult!) Okay, so it does searches and replaces on *characters* and doesn't just insert buzz words per se, which means, like the website of the same name says, it does dialectizing, and not jargon per se. >From the Mac source (Chef 1.1) I found on info-mac, the Swedish Chef one's pretty simple, with just a few character substitution rules. The hardest one I found, from a quick perusal in Google, is Cockney, with something like 600 rules, which I haven't actually looked at, yet. Creating text which sounds like me -- much less John Young -- may (or may not :-)) be "eesy". Though, it does remind me of the concordance text-biometric stuff people around here used to fool around with to identify anonymous cypherpunk messages from, um, various cranks... :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From sunder at sunder.net Tue Dec 12 14:48:46 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:48:46 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... References: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> <3A369082.43BEB6A9@algroup.co.uk> <3A369588.4E583A2A@sunder.net> <3A369A33.6AF7C9B8@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <3A36AB4E.74AA61AF@sunder.net> Ben Laurie wrote: > > That'd be cool. Does it count as reading in Mr. May's view? > Most of Tim's post do make it to the filtered list. The ones that are complaints to spams, bomb requests, etc. don't. :) -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 12 15:59:50 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:59:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: leah getting sued (fwd) Message-ID: Things get serious in alternate-namespace land... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:24:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Bradley D. Thornton" Reply-To: orange at dns.list To: orange at dns.list Cc: orange at vrx.net Subject: Re: leah getting sued Sorry Joe, I'm no longer at liberty to discuss this matter. There's a leaker on this "Private" list and I just got contacted by an Australian Barrister with a full copy of my post to this list, and no word as to whom may have forwarded it. To bring a piece of sobering reality to the leakage on a private list just let me point out some earlier jokes from last week where I was the object. "ver didst you put zee microfeesh Vladimer?" Not always as funny as that is it people? So I may start up my own cc list of people on this list of people I "Think" I can trust. On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, !dr.baptista wrote: > > good question - bradley?? did the nice begal identify himself? > > regards > joe > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dan Steinberg wrote: > > > SO? > > My original questions still stand; > > who? > > what? > > where? > > when? > > why? > > > > all you have done is find a venue... > > > > "!dr.baptista" wrote: > > > > > i've changed the subject line - the other subject was geeting confusing. > > > > > > the australian courst are a bit like the canadian courts - one good > > > example is the ontario court general division which in it's wisdom has > > > decided anything to do with the internet that affects a canadian is > > > subject to their jurisdiction. and if for any reason you can't defend > > > yourself - bingo - your guilty. > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dan Steinberg wrote: > > > > > > > Yes but all that was about the threat of Leah being sued. not about them > > > > having grounds to sue others. > > > > My point was that someone (cant remember who) figured she was about to be > > > > sued and I was scratching my head wondering (even in the US) how they could > > > > come up with something? > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bradley D. Thornton" wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dan Steinberg wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dan wrote something in html or something, so it didn't come up in the > > > > > quote, but... > > > > > > > > > > You mentioned irreparable harm. > > > > > > > > > > Isn't Atlantic Root Network Inc., (Leah and Karl) being harmed by the > > > > > publicity of people offering "pre-registrations" for .biz when there > > > > > aren't any, and have never been any "pre-registration" programs for a > > > > > registry that only offers "Live Registrations"? > > > > > > > > > > Isn't that also fraud, since they have never been accredited by the > > > > > Registry that is the only authority that can accept such agreements to > > > > > allow other registrars to accept registrations for .biz? > > > > > > > > > > Aren't they causing harm by stating that it isn't yet available when it > > > > > is? > > > > > > > > > > The PacificRoot is all over the search engines and .BIZ was featured in > > > > > Wired magazine among others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > ,,, > > > > > (o o) > > > > > |----------------------oOO-(_)-OOo-------------------------| > > > > > | Bradley D. Thornton "So foul a sky clears | > > > > > | Mgr NetWork Services not without a storm" | > > > > > | NOMAD Internetwork - Shakespeare - | > > > > > | www.pacificroot.com | > > > > > |----------------------------------------------------------| > > > > > |-----On the Beaches of Super Sunny Southern California----| > > > > > |----------------------------------------------------------| > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Dan Steinberg > > > > > > > > SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology > > > > 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 > > > > Chelsea, Quebec fax: (819) 827-4398 > > > > J9B 1N1 e-mail:synthesis at vrx.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dan Steinberg > > > > SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology > > 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 > > Chelsea, Quebec fax: (819) 827-4398 > > J9B 1N1 e-mail:synthesis at vrx.net > > > > > > > > > > -- ,,, (o o) |----------------------oOO-(_)-OOo-------------------------| | Bradley D. Thornton "So foul a sky clears | | Mgr NetWork Services not without a storm" | | NOMAD Internetwork - Shakespeare - | | www.pacificroot.com | |----------------------------------------------------------| |-----On the Beaches of Super Sunny Southern California----| |----------------------------------------------------------| From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 12 18:11:05 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:11:05 -0800 Subject: Buying Echelon - Echelon and Acension Island .AC domain names available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001212181105.009dcce0@idiom.com> Suppose you want to buy up a world-wide spying organization.... There a few Echelon names for sale - echelon.dk is owned, but the web site has a for sale sign echelon.com, org, net, and ca are owned by businesses. echelon.to is taken, but I can't get the web page to respond and email bounces with host unknown echelon.co.uk is taken, but I can't get the web page to respond and email to nonexistent at echelon.co.uk gets bouncegrams from postmaster at echelon.com, and there's a maze of twisty little MX records hanging around it. echelon.to is "taken" but doesn't have DNS records If Bill Scannell wants an Acension Island domain name to go with his passport stamp, they're available at http://betterwhois.register.com echelon.ac and echelon.sh (St. Helena) are available :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From declan at well.com Tue Dec 12 15:15:01 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:15:01 -0500 Subject: Insult Islam online, go to jail Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001212181423.015a7f00@mail.well.com> Malaysia Takes Action On Anti-Islam Internet Surfers By Steve Gold, Newsbytes KUALA LUMPUR, MALAYSIA, 12 Dec 2000, 7:48 AM CST Insulting Islam on the Internet in Malaysia could prove costly from now on, as the government has warned that offenders face fines of up to $1,300 and/or three years in prison. This draconian warning came from Abdul Hamid Othman, a minister in the Malaysian Prime Minister's Department Monday, when he said that any Muslim world Internet surfers who insult the Prophet Mohammed and the Koran, the Muslim equivalent of the bible, on the Internet, face dire consequences. The legal action, he said, will be taken under Syariah criminal law - the Law of Mohammed - which all Muslim states adopt. Othman's comments are likely to attract condemnation from Western Internet users and experts, many of whom, say Islamic proponents, do not understand the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed. ... From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:19:46 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:19:46 +1100 Subject: before you read any further close your eyes ....... your cheating References: Message-ID: <001501c0640b$edd2b1c0$869217d2@benny9> From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:28 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:28 +1100 Subject: man im funny! Message-ID: <002001c0640c$6d4e3140$869217d2@benny9> ahahahahha -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 314 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:36 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:36 +1100 Subject: to Message-ID: <003201c0640c$724fee40$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:41 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:41 +1100 Subject: funny Message-ID: <003d01c0640c$75294d00$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:48 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:48 +1100 Subject: for Message-ID: <004801c0640c$79a649a0$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:55 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:55 +1100 Subject: you Message-ID: <005301c0640c$7dcdd340$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:24:09 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:24:09 +1100 Subject: One of u poofs unsubscribe me Message-ID: <005701c0640c$862794e0$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Tue Dec 12 08:53:10 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:53:10 +0200 (EET) Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: >Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. No question about it. The term also doesn't mean a whole lot when applied as-is in the many instances it is on this list. As Tim put it, it pretty much equates to "cyberpunkish". What little I've grasped of RAH's usage is that "geodesic" often translates as "distributed", one of the main features of which is that it "operates based on locally available information". Hence... Besides, if you know your Einstein (or Riemann, or Minkowsky) even a little bit you will recognize that one of the prime reasons for the development of a geometric interpretation of physics is the need to have a solid theory not reliant on instantaneous transfer of information ("local"). My interpretation is not unreasonable at all, considering the alternatives. Wanna drop it? >Saying that it has anything to do with distributed systems is making it >up as you go along. Ain't everybody? >And if RAH is now going to claim that's what he meant then he's making >it up as he goes along, too (well, we knew that anyway, but redefining >geodesic in this way is going too far). It's good to know you're hip to this. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From roy at scytale.com Tue Dec 12 15:53:37 2000 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:53:37 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001212183610.00abed60@pop3.idt.net> At 04:04 PM 12/12/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Here you go: > >http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi Nifty hack, Declan! From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Tue Dec 12 08:56:21 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:56:21 +0200 (EET) Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >> Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >> points on it" > >Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? Topology does not deal with dimension or distance. Pure geometry. Not even affine or anything. As I've seen them defined, geodesics do not necessarily mean the shortest path but rather the shortest path based on local knowledge. I.e. if you have a wormhole in general relativity, the possible shortcut does not affect the definition of geodesics in any way. You calculate the geodesic based on the local curvature measure of the space, that's it. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 16:11:34 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:11:34 -0500 Subject: DCSB: Chuck Wade; ACH in Internet Payment Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [Note that the Harvard Club is now "business casual". No more jackets and ties... --RAH] The Digital Commerce Society of Boston Presents Chuck Wade, Senior Researcher, Internet Payments and Security, CommerceNet Legacy Electronic Payment Systems meet the Internet: Using ACH for Internet Payments Tuesday, January 2nd, 2000 12 - 2 PM The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston One Federal Street, Boston, MA Electronic payment systems have been around for more than a quarter century, but are characterized by a legacy of private networks and mainframe transaction processing systems. Recently, there have been a variety of new schemes proposed and even implemented to bring legacy epayment systems to the Internet. This is especially true of the Automated Clearing House (ACH) system, which is evolving rapidly to support new interfaces with Internet-based payment services. This talk will focus on some of the approaches being used to adapt the legacy ACH system to new Internet payment services, and will explore some of the positive and negative implications of these developments. Chuck Wade is a Senior Researcher for CommerceNet focusing on Internet payments and information security. Prior to joining CommerceNet, he was a Principal Consultant in the Information Security Group of BBN Technologies. At BBN, he led Electronic Commerce initiatives and client engagements, with most of his consulting work within the Financial Industry. As one of the original participants in the FSTC eCheck Project, Chuck has been involved with over-the-Internet electronic payments since the mid 1990's. He also contributed directly to the architecture, design, deployment and testing of various large, mission-critical networks, including the trading floor network for the New York and American Stock Exchanges. In a career spanning a quarter century, Chuck spent all of the '90s with BBN (now a part of Verizon) as a Consultant and Systems Architect. During most of the '80s, he worked at Motorola directing the Advanced Technology Group for the Codex division. He has also worked in the minicomputer industry and university research. He holds both Sc.B. and Sc.M. degrees from Brown University in Electrical Engineering. This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on Tuesday, January 2nd, 2000, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is $35.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, A/V hardware if necessary, and the speakers' lunch. The Harvard Club has relaxed its dress code, which is now "business casual", meaning no sneakers or jeans. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your meal if the Club finds you in violation of what's left of its dress code. We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by Saturday, December 30th, or you won't be on the list for lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be sent back. Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $35.00. Please include your e-mail address so that we can send you a confirmation If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something out. Upcoming speakers for DCSB are: February 6 Ted Byfield Decentralized DNS Control March 6 Scott Moskowitz Watermarking and Bluespike As you can see, :-), we are actively searching for future speakers. If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, are a principal in digital commerce, and would like to make a presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Committee, care of Robert Hettinga, . -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQEVAwUBOja+gcUCGwxmWcHhAQECxgf+O7pd13JHzqUaJ8LrsXW62i8WSNsnxYCk qXMX/XXopBJW2gt8RL4nOsAt6A1ssgcLK3+kUOcLom804UryJe1p3DfC/HHJVfJP 1o4vGb31nj16qin4W0aWEolNA3beLGsIKIENeaPeCK2PNTu7htOb94q0GxWSI9Xn 5OSvXe23y0vHsnHWO0Ndwl9D16wk0R3kp1kjIfXwUhFCvo7e12tK/f+BVPJYq/u/ ksTR7Cb63a33WfqDUYE7INbo9PNB9ErnbLrK6w2V2WGLwEsqP2fHpgKwKPyKZQOi wouxQlHXmuyOU4KNdGfU5jsAbzAWE/40+P9phVbK+hMLkJzve5wjCg== =jCmh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "dcsb-request at reservoir.com" with one line of text: "help". --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ben at algroup.co.uk Tue Dec 12 11:42:55 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:42:55 +0000 Subject: Questions of size... References: Message-ID: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > >Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two > >points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. > > No question about it. The term also doesn't mean a whole lot when applied > as-is in the many instances it is on this list. As Tim put it, it pretty > much equates to "cyberpunkish". Not being subscribed to cypherpunks (has S/R improved?) I will have missed that. > What little I've grasped of RAH's usage > is that "geodesic" often translates as "distributed", one of the main > features of which is that it "operates based on locally available > information". Hence... Besides, if you know your Einstein (or Riemann, or > Minkowsky) even a little bit you will recognize that one of the prime > reasons for the development of a geometric interpretation of physics is the > need to have a solid theory not reliant on instantaneous transfer of > information ("local"). My interpretation is not unreasonable at all, > considering the alternatives. Wanna drop it? :-) Certainly not. AFAIK, RAH has always used "geodesic" in conjuction with "settlement", which clearly says to me that he's talking about the quickest/easiest way to do money transfer. You may, or may not, achieve that with distributed systems, but so what? And, to hit relativity, for completeness, geodesic in that sense is about figuring out curvature. That is, knowing all geodesics tells you the shape of space-time. And, natch, light follows geodesics, which is the glue that holds it all together (and brings in your non-instaneous transfer, too, but again, that is neither a consequence of, nor a requirement for, geodesics). > >Saying that it has anything to do with distributed systems is making it > >up as you go along. > > Ain't everybody? I'm taking the fifth on that one. > >And if RAH is now going to claim that's what he meant then he's making > >it up as he goes along, too (well, we knew that anyway, but redefining > >geodesic in this way is going too far). > > It's good to know you're hip to this. Like, yeah, daddy-o. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 17:52:06 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:52:06 -0500 Subject: DCSB: Chuck Wade; ACH in Internet Payment Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 29 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at algroup.co.uk Tue Dec 12 12:54:26 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:54:26 +0000 Subject: Questions of size... References: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <3A369082.43BEB6A9@algroup.co.uk> Tim May wrote: > > At 7:42 PM +0000 12/12/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > >Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > >> > >> >Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two > >> >points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. > >> > >> No question about it. The term also doesn't mean a whole lot when applied > >> as-is in the many instances it is on this list. As Tim put it, it pretty > >> much equates to "cyberpunkish". > > > >Not being subscribed to cypherpunks (has S/R improved?) I will have > >missed that. > > Signal happens when good writers contribute good articles. Noise > happens in the expected ways. Noise is what the delete key, and > filters, were made for. Hmm. So, please send me your noise filter. I could do with one. > As you are apparently reading this from the "DBS" list, you are not > seeing any of my contributions. Regrettfully, DBS (and DCSB, or > Bearebucks, or whatever Bob is calling his list(s)) is not an "open > system." The Cypherpunks tried such a censored list a few years ago, > and we rejected the approach. The list I'm writing to is not censored, AFAIK. > I wrote a large article debunking the "geodesics is about topology" > point of view. Others have said similar things. Actually, they're really about geometry, though there are some kinds of topology which can support geodesics (not the standard rubber-sheet kind most people are familiar with, though). For example, a graph can support the notion of a shortest distance between two points, and that is definitely a topological entity. > Please don't contribute articles to the Cypherpunks list if you are, > as you say, not subscribed. While we don't reject articles by > nonsubscribers, as per the above, it is tacky and rude for > nonsubscribers to address articles to lists they are not tracking. This is an email, not an article. Is it tacky and rude to copy to a list to which you'd prefer I didn't reply? I think so. Is it polite to include all recipients in a mail to which you reply? I think so. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From msbabydoll at mail.com Tue Dec 12 18:29:09 2000 From: msbabydoll at mail.com (msbabydoll at mail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 21:29:09 EST Subject: This is going to be HUGE!!! Message-ID: <200012130422.MAA04799@public.jninfo.net.cn> Hi There, If you're an aspiring internet entrepreneur, then you've got to STOP whatever you're doing and check this out! I'm successfully involved in a number of online businesses, but NOTHING comes even remotly close to this! This concept is "Rocking The Internet To It's Core! I want to let you in on a business that is already being hailed as"The Next AOL".... "Bigger Than Yahoo".... "The Ultimate Business Package".... For a limited time you have the option to join for FREE right now! Your earnings potential can only be described as AWESOME! The initial results have been simply staggering!! For Full, Free Details, just click on the link below and then press send/mail.mailto: msbabyboo at mail.com?subject=PleaseSendDetails Your future will be delivered to your inbox within seconds! Every moment you delay will cost you money! Over 8,000 people have joined in the last 4 days alone! This is going to be HUGE!!! Don't miss the boat! Kind Regards Alexandra Thomas This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro '98 Bulk E- Mail Software. If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you from their future mailings.____________________ From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 12 21:50:02 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:50:02 -0800 Subject: Privacy is another victim of the war on (some) drugs In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001211111025.01510030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001212215002.009efc00@idiom.com> At 11:10 AM 12/11/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40532,00.html > Privacy a Victim of the Drug War by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 2:00 a.m. Dec. 11, 2000 PST (.... noticing the timestamp ...) > They got even. Edmond and Palmer filed a federal lawsuit claiming the > drug-stop violated the Constitution's rule against unreasonable > searches, and the Supreme Court recently agreed with them in a 6-3 > ruling. It's pleasant to see the court doing the right thing on occasion. > By last year, the vast majority of the wiretaps had become > narcotics-related: 978 of 1,350, according to government figures. The majority of non-drug-related wiretaps have been for gambling investigations, another ban on consensual behavior which encourages police invasion of privacy because the participants don't have an incentive to report violations. >John Gilmore adds: >> I doubt that ALL privacy invasion has been engendered by the >> War on Drugs. Definitely not - the invasion of privacy engendered by taxation far exceeds that from the War on Drugs. It's primarily violation of Fifth Amendment issues rather than Fourth Amendment, and invades the individual's interactions with other people rather than focusing on their state of mind and body, but it's a much higher volume and much more pervasive invasion. In particular, it leads to large databases of information on individuals and businesses, requires businesses to maintain their own large databases on individuals, and requires huge expenditures of effort on tracking and reducing taxes by people who could otherwise be engaged in productive activities. And the power to tax is used to extend government control into areas that would otherwise not have legal justifications - confiscatory marijuana taxes were the beginning of drug prohibition, car taxes are used to require license plates and car registration which are then used to track and control people's movement. Medical privacy has been largely eroded by government health care insurance and regulations requiring common identifiers for databases (SSNs) and centralized decision-making, and also by insurance companies which are largely shaped by the taxation-driven market for employer-provided medical insurance. >>The Internet has produced a major privacy problem by >>making previously hard-to-access or hard-to-correlate records readily >>available; search engines have been co-conspirators with the WWW >>inventors in building easy cross-indexes. I'd attribute the correlation issues more to the rapidly decreasing costs of computers and storage than to the communications capabilities. They're obviously overlapping, but even clumsy systems like SNA and magnetic tapes by overnight mail were sufficient for business information sharing to reach critical mass a decade ago, before the internet explosion, and to some extent even in the 60s and 70s when our privacy was beginning to be bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated. For example, credit-card transactions and check scanning generally don't use the Internet - check scanning is a computer/optics/storage problem, and modems or SNA networks are enough for credit cards, and also for buying credit reports on customers. The big differences the Internet has made, besides fueling the growth in computer power affordability, have been in reducing the costs of correlation by small organizations, allowing the decentralization of privacy invasion. This will have a lot of unforeseen implications; it may also have foreseen implications, with authors such as Brin and Vinge exploring possibilities. >>The drug war-crime makes big problems for whatever lives or policies >>it touches, and it has certainly had a big negative impact on privacy. >>We would all have much more privacy rights if the drug war had never >>happened. Restoring those rights after we end the drug war is going >>to be a 50-year project. Hear, hear. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From auto110413 at hushmail.com Tue Dec 12 22:06:10 2000 From: auto110413 at hushmail.com (auto110413 at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:06:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: My short writeup of the NymIP effort Message-ID: <200012131753.JAA20948@user7.hushmail.com> Now I�m confused � REALLY confused. For a second there, I thought ZKS was actually executing a turnaround to become a �real� privacy company, what with their recent repositioning towards �managed privacy services� and all. Companies out there need privacy solutions, and the field is wide open for the taking right now.. There aren�t many other companies out there with shipping products for the enterprise space yet .. in addition to ZKS (which I�m not sure if they REALLY have a product for the enterprise space? although they seem to like to talk about it??) there�s PrivacyRight and Privada out in California, and then that�s about it.. and from what I can tell, the enterprise market is more than large enough for 3 companies right now.. I mean, if ZKS ever got their head screwed on right (read: fired Austin Hill??), they MIGHT stand a sliver of a chance of actually making some money -- But NOW, ZKS turns around and pulls a �NymIP� project for the IETF? What does this have to do w/ anything? (or at least, what does it have to do w/ the ZKS repositioning to become a genuine privacy company?) It seems this has more in line w/ what I�ve been saying all along: the ZKS is really a free speech company, not a privacy company. I�ve perused the (so far short) NymIP mailing lists and even the members agree that the NymIP project shares more in common w/ Fling (http://fling.sourceforge.net/), a free-speech system for the Internet, than it does w/ anything privacy related.. First, I�ll go over all the obvious technical flaws w/ NymIP. For this protocol to have any practical applicability, we have to believe the ZKS mantra that IP addresses somehow represents �personally identifiable information� (PII) that is highly sensitive, and therefore must be encrypted� We are asked to believe, in other words, that 1 IP address < == > 1 person.. Notwithstanding the obvious fact that today 60% of the Internet population logs on through AOL where 10,000 users share one IP address at the same time, I�d like to ask the NymIP team what they plan to do once IPv6 is rolled out?? The 1 IP address < == > 1 person concept is highly tenuous under IPv4, and altogether laughable under IPv6.. Reading of the Goals of NymIP draft, the project lacks clear definition � apparently they want to throw a bunch of academics in a room and see if they can come up w/ some vacuous concept called �controlled nymity� (< - - what the hell does that mean??) all w/o attempting to set any concrete benchmarks or milestones? The draft also stresses PKI.. I�m wondering how much trust ZKS in general places in PKI? Have they read Schneier�s 10 risks of PKI?: http://www.counterpane.com/pki-risks-ft.txt You have to wonder about IETF adoption too .. I checked out the agenda for the San Diego meeting and there is no mention of NymIP: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-49.html Also, just run through the standards that the IETF really does back: LDAP, Kerberos, IP telephony, VoIP, IPSec, and on and on.. these are real applications for have real business uses for enterprises and individuals. That�s why they have the support of the IEFT.. Where�s the �real� use for nyms? How many people have downloaded Freedom and are using? (I never see anyone I know on the Internet using @freedom.net addresses..) How many businesses are using ZKS? (if in fact they even have a product for businesses?) If nyms were a �real� thing, technologically + economically, they would have happened by now, but they haven�t.. (YES � I�m using a nym to write this email, but I don�t use one nym to purchase computer books on Amazon, use a different nym to buy porno books on Amazon, etc.. and THAT is the economic reality that would have to be occurring for ZKS-style nyms to have any real traction � yet it does NOT occur..) What irritates me more than anything about ZKS is their belief that cryptography can solve all the worlds privacy problems.. any sophisticated security professional will tell you that cryptography barely solves any security problems, and although good privacy starts w/ good security (since w/o security, information will tend to leak around where you don�t want it to), privacy is vastly more complex than security.. 10 years ago you had people like Schneier talking about the role of cryptography in security. Since then, these people have moved beyond the algorithms and protocols, into the products, then into the policies and procedures, and today you have people like Schneier basically advising companies to just buy insurance to cover computer security risks � after all, the whole security game is just a risk management game, and what better way to manage risk than via insurance? But at ZKS, they�re still living in a world where cryptography solves everything, completely ignoring the human element.. (which is really the most important) (and while we're on the subject on cryptography, what exactly is wrong w/ SSL? And don't tell me that SSL still lets you see IP addresses (perfectly in line w/ the TCP/IP spec) b/c that has NOTHING to do w/ privacy) When I look for the �human� element in a company, I look to the marketing department � it�s the job of these guys to make sure that what the company is working on actually HAS a market. As soon as I heard about the NymIP project, my gut instinct was to fire the marketing VP over at ZKS � it was like, this is the last straw � the company has completely failed to position itself as ANYTHING. First you�re selling this thingie called Freedom that is supposed to protect privacy but of course doesn�t, then you�re transitioning into the enterprise space, but you still leave 100 engineers working on Freedom on payroll, and then you start talking about being a consulting company even though PriceWaterhouseCooper will be better than you because they have actually broadened their knowledge base beyond �crypto-anarchy� and you haven�t and you then have Stefan Brands do a dog and pony show about building privacy into PKI, w/ applications in m-commerce, e-commerce, electronic voting, location-based services, age/gender verification, DRM, identity management and frequent flier miles (< -- NONE OF WHICH, by the way, are anything that any of the previously mentioned ZKS units are focusing on) and finally you come FULL CIRCLE and decide that you�re going to work on this NymIP thing, which most closely resembled your initial Freedom product, which is actually a free speech thingie anyway and not a privacy thingie.. Wow � NO FUCKING FOCUS.. and they must be burning at least $2.5 mil every month w/ basically nothing to show in revenues (I�m guessing Freedom just isn�t the cash cow they though it might be?? I mean, how many people do I see on the Internet using @freedom.net addresses??) But, back to what I was talking about � I was about to recommend firing their marketing VP when I looked at their Web site and realized ZKS HAS NO MARKETING VP!! Then I thought: THAT�S THE PROBLEM!! Most �modern� high tech companies believe in the mantra that your customers drive your business, and will hire a marketing VP usually as employee, say, #3 or #4 so that he can go out and validate that there really IS a market for what you are proposing.. if not, it�s back to the drawing board until you CAN find some customers somewhere for what you�re peddling.. Apparently ZKS does not choose to operate in this manner (listen to customers, ship products to market, etc..) And that�s when I realized they likely have no marketing VP b/c it�s impossible to market a product as crappy as Freedom! Catch22.. In Silicon Valley, most VCs will not fund a company w/ market validation and w/o a marketing VP.. apparently this does not hold true in Canada.. I guess in the end, do I really care that much that I�m surfing anonymously? Do I really care that much that I�m surfing w/ a non-encrypted IP address? (this is, after all, how TCP/IP was designed to work). I�m still SEARCHING for a business case here.. SOMEBODY HELP ME.. If I fill out a form and engage in a commercial transaction, then yes I want all that and related information to remain private (between me and the merchant), but does this really mean that I want all my info hidden from the merchant (maybe I�m a sucker for frequent flier miles) and does it mean that I�ll swim against the flow and drop $30 million++ into trying to redesign TCP/IP from the ground up so it has anonymity built-in?? Declan � btw I appreciate the fact that your blurb in Wired about NymIP makes no mention of the word �privacy� � I think it�s incredibly important that the concept of �privacy� be divorced from the concept of �anonymity� in the popular media (where oftentimes these two concepts blur together into one..) .. they are clearly not even remotely similar.. And don�t get me wrong � I firmly believe the Internet should have an �anonymous safe haven�, so to speak, if only for free speech if nothing else � however, I have serious problems w/ a privacy company attempting to deliver on this, since it�s technically impossible, economically unmanageable and ultimately only confuses the an already befuddled marketplace (quite severely, in fact..).. >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40582,00.html > > Devising Invisible Ink > by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 2:00 a.m. Dec. 9, 2000 PST > > WASHINGTON -- An ambitious effort to protect online anonymity > will kick off this weekend. > > A working group of about a dozen technologists, called NymIP, is > gathering before the Internet Engineering Task Force's meeting to take > the very first steps toward devising a standard that will foster > untraceable communications and Web browsing for Internet users. 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This message is sent in compliance of the new E-mail bill, SECTION 301, Paragraph (a) (2)(C) of S.1618.Transmissions to you by the sender of this email will be stopped promptly by sending an e-mail with REMOVE in the subject line to: easysuccess2000 at yahoo.com Thank you From 73614530 at 18608.com Tue Dec 12 21:20:59 2000 From: 73614530 at 18608.com (AOL Busters) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 00:20:59 EST Subject: THIS IS HUGE! WATCH OUT AOL Message-ID: <200012130522.NAA29199@scgb.com> 'America On Line Watch Out" You now have the opportunity to enroll FOR FREE in a new online community that PAYS YOU TO BE A MEMBER and were not talking peanuts. THIS IS NOT MLM or NETWORK MARKETING!!!!! How does $10,000 a month sound just for using their community? There is a new sheriff coming to town and their focus is to be bigger and better than AOL. This brand new community is coming out in about 30 days. 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This message is sent in compliance of the new E-mail bill, SECTION 301, Paragraph (a) (2)(C) of S.1618.Transmissions to you by the sender of this email will be stopped promptly by sending an e-mail with REMOVE in the subject line to: easysuccess2000 at yahoo.com Thank you From CindysP at cs.net Wed Dec 13 05:32:38 2000 From: CindysP at cs.net (CindysP at cs.net) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:32:38 Subject: stock picker Message-ID: <170.436959.77400@cs.net> Have you ever wondered if you can make money in the stock market. Let us send you a free video. Simple system explains how to get wealthy in the stock market. Do you know that MCI is at its low for the year. YES MCI the giant long distance company. Do you think MCI is going out of business. I dont think so! Thousands have paid $99 for this video now its available free. www.gethotstocks.bigstep.com FREE VIDEO / Learn how simple and predictable the stock market is. Stock brokers never tell there clients about these proven systems for investing. Protect a portfolio against adverse price changes profit by making slight adjustments. www.gethotstocks.bigstep.com INCLUDE ALL INFORMATION TO GET THE VIDEO! Name: Address: Phone: Email www.gethotstocks.bigstep.com If you wish to be removed please send mail to removeme at 2251.com Message is sent in compliance. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 13 05:34:15 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:34:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Privacy is another victim of the war on (some) drugs In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001212215002.009efc00@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > >John Gilmore adds: > > >> I doubt that ALL privacy invasion has been engendered by the > >> War on Drugs. > > Definitely not - the invasion of privacy engendered by taxation > far exceeds that from the War on Drugs. It's primarily violation > of Fifth Amendment issues rather than Fourth Amendment, Actually taxation, war on drugs, etc. violate the 1st primarily, the other amendments only get broken as a secondary action. Why? They violate the right to choose that is guaranteed in the 1st. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 13 06:23:45 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:23:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cool. If there are no objections I'll add this to the CDR homepage at SSZ. I'd like to suggest you add another advantage to email, mobile access through mechanisms like packet radio. With respect to the 'CDR like' comments, can you better explain how this works? Who does one contact? What sort of scripting is required? You also might want to reduce the default resend period on this list if possible. The 4 day normal for sendmail might be problematic. Set it to something like 1 day. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, BMM wrote: > I would like to announce the "secret-admirers" mail list. > > The "secret-admirers" list is intended to function in a manner similar > to the well-known Usenet newsgroup "alt.anonymous.messages". This > newsgroup serves as a dead drop for communications in which the recipient > wishes to remain unknown. > > While access to a Usenet news server is unavailable in many environments, > the ubiquity and flexibility of e-mail may be advantageous for the > following reasons: > > - Penetration: More people having access to (pseudo|ano)nymizing tools > is generally a good thing. > - Pool Size: Higher utilization of the message pool may frustrate > traffic analysis. The list may be gatewayed back into > alt.anonymous.messages or vice versa. CDR-like > nodes for redistribution may be established to reduce > load on individual nodes. > - Filtering: E-mail filtering tools are widely available, allowing > recipients to draw only pertinent messages from the > pool by filtering on tokens which have been negotiated > out-of-band or by the public key to which a message has > been encrypted. > > The mail list is unmoderated and accepts messages from any submitter. > Submissions may be sent to "secret-admirers at minder.net" or > "sa at minder.net". > > TO SUBSCRIBE to the list, send a message with "subscribe secret-admirers" > in the body to majordomo at minder.net. The more subscribers, the better, > even if procmail just sends it to /dev/null. > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from the list, send a message with "unsubscribe > secret-admirers" to majordomo at minder.net. > > A digest of this list is available. This list is not currently archived. From bmm at minder.net Wed Dec 13 05:39:08 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:39:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list Message-ID: I would like to announce the "secret-admirers" mail list. The "secret-admirers" list is intended to function in a manner similar to the well-known Usenet newsgroup "alt.anonymous.messages". This newsgroup serves as a dead drop for communications in which the recipient wishes to remain unknown. While access to a Usenet news server is unavailable in many environments, the ubiquity and flexibility of e-mail may be advantageous for the following reasons: - Penetration: More people having access to (pseudo|ano)nymizing tools is generally a good thing. - Pool Size: Higher utilization of the message pool may frustrate traffic analysis. The list may be gatewayed back into alt.anonymous.messages or vice versa. CDR-like nodes for redistribution may be established to reduce load on individual nodes. - Filtering: E-mail filtering tools are widely available, allowing recipients to draw only pertinent messages from the pool by filtering on tokens which have been negotiated out-of-band or by the public key to which a message has been encrypted. The mail list is unmoderated and accepts messages from any submitter. Submissions may be sent to "secret-admirers at minder.net" or "sa at minder.net". TO SUBSCRIBE to the list, send a message with "subscribe secret-admirers" in the body to majordomo at minder.net. The more subscribers, the better, even if procmail just sends it to /dev/null. TO UNSUBSCRIBE from the list, send a message with "unsubscribe secret-admirers" to majordomo at minder.net. A digest of this list is available. This list is not currently archived. Thanks, -Brian -- bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Dec 13 08:56:34 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:56:34 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A3752D6.5213A7CB@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> -- James A. Donald > > If morality is merely relative, then what is wrong with murdering > > a few million jews, kulaks, or people as irritating as James A. > > Donald? All a matter of perspective, isn't it? At 11:43 AM 12/13/2000 +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: > example: killing 1 million. jews is evil, because - because of what? > there's a lot of "becauses", I notice you imply that the Nazi liquidation of the Jews has been wildly exaggerated. Killing several million Jews is murderous because killing Jews merely for being Jewish is like killing me, therefore someone who liquidates the Jews is likely to kill me, someone who favors rendering society Jew free is likely to kill me if he had the power. Similarly anyone who thinks that Stalin was too soft on the kulaks (read the various commie criticisms of Stalin) would certainly kill me if he had the power, for the same reasons as he would kill the kulaks. > but none of them works without a subjective set of ethics. Bullshit. > you won't find a "because" that has the structure of, say, a > mathematical proof. You cannot prove that iron is iron with the structure of a mathematical proof, because it is a fact about the world, and empirical fact, ultimately resting on the evidence of the senses. To deduce the necessary "because", one must start from the nature of man, and the nature of the world. James A. Donald: > > The reason we define certain killings as murder is not because > > "the bible tells us so", but because we want to know if a killing > > indicates that the killer is apt to kill murderously. > > > > Similarly we observe that one deed, and one man, is like another, > > and another unlike, and we call one such group of men and deeds > > "evil", "evil" > being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. Tom Vogt: > you are changing the meaning of "we" without noticing it. in the 2nd > paragraph, "we" means pretty much everyone. in the third, "we" is > much smaller. for example, the nazis would certainly have agreed to > calling iron "eisen" (the german word for "iron"). however, they > didn't call the mass murdering of jews that. Then they were wrong, just as they would have been wrong had they called iron copper. And evidence that they were wrong is that a great many of them died of that error, for nazis killed more nazis than they did commies, just as the commies killed more commies than they did nazis, something that anyone could have foreseen had he recognized that killing Jews was murder, that killing capitalists for being capitalists was murder. The Nazi claim was that the killing of Jews was not indicative of a propensity to murder Aryans. The commie claim was that killing of capitalists was not indicative of a propensity to murder proletarians. These claims, of course, were false, because killing Jews capriciously, or because they were Jews, or killing capitalists capriciously or because they were capitalists, is in fact morally similar to killing anyone whimsically and capriciously, is in fact murder. Not "deemed to be murder". Not "socially constructed as murder". It really is murder, really is capricious and unreasonable killing, and hence it really is indicative of propensity to kill people capriciously, which is why we feel about murder as we do, feel that it is wrong. If the nature of man and the world was what you imagine it to be, if it was true that killing Jews was not indicative of propensity to kill Aryans, then Trotsky's "their morals and ours" would be right and I would be wrong; Hobbes in "Leviathan" would be right and I would be wrong. The evidence however is that I am right and you are wrong, that I am right and Trotsky is wrong, that I am right and Hobbes is wrong, that I am right and Hitler was wrong The evidence is that killing Jews is like killing me, that killing witches is like killing me, that killing capitalists is like killing me. Not "socially constructed as like killing me". Really like killing me. James A. Donald: > > They crossed the "is ought gap" without the slightest difficulty, > > and so does everyone else except for monsters and philosophers. I > > find it striking that many of the philosophers who have such great > > difficulty with this alleged gap have some connection to monstrous > > regimes. Not all of them by any means, but most of them. Tom Vogt > that's because they are so readily abused by them. almost everyone > is prone to not listening to what someone else really has to say, > but to draw conclusions quickly. go into any anti-nazi newsgroup and > argue a careful position, ask for evidence and draw conclusions only > from facts. want to make a bet on how long it takes until you're > called a nazi? I observe the contrary -- that people who go into anti Nazi newsgroups and purport to argue a careful position that the Jews were not murdered, or at least no very many of them, and anyway they had it coming, are generally not called nazis by most people, even though they quite obviously are nazis. Same goes, even more strongly, for commies, even those who loudly announce that they reject Lenin and Stalin, and then proceed to argue that Lenin and Stalin were softies, that they failed to suppress capitalism with sufficient vigor. > they spoken not to their own people, but to the people of serbia, > they could not have "crossed the gap [between is and ought" with > such ease. The people of Serbia were wrong to vote fascists into power, though US intervention saved them from themselves, so they did not discover for themselves the consequences. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG r1v0E/KCznABDLa6ZzZMz0HCCjkL5oqcH5T5Lrjp 4gqox4cUDyE8NirpaFKg+VDudBY74EaZWjv4VAldo From declan at well.com Wed Dec 13 06:12:24 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:12:24 -0500 Subject: Only one horseman left! Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001213091148.028cef00@mail.well.com> today in dc: HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE Foreign Threats Crime Subcommittee hearing on the threat posed by the convergence of organized crime, drug trafficking and terrorism. 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A: NO, In fact grants are not based on your credit. It is not a loan, even the unemployed receive grants. Q: What is the average grant amount awarded? A: $1,000.00 to 10,000.00 is average, but it depends on what the grant will be used for. Businesses that benefit the communities have been awarded $100,000 to millions in grant money. Don't Delay, This Is A Limited Time Offer At This Amazing Low Price! Get That Grant Now, Before College Rush Time Comes! This mailing is done by an independent marketing co. We apologize if this message has reached you in error. Save the Planet, Save the Trees! Advertise via E mail. No wasted paper! Delete with one simple keystroke! Less refuse in our Dumps! This is the new way of the new millennium! To be removed, please visit site From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 13 09:44:34 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:44:34 -0800 Subject: This is why HTML email is evil. In-Reply-To: <3A3797CE.92BAB413@sunder.net> References: <3A3797CE.92BAB413@sunder.net> Message-ID: At 10:37 AM -0500 12/13/00, sunder wrote: >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15423.html > >"For a very sweet dirty trick along those lines, one could embed a >link to a porn picture on-line, resized at 1x1 so it's invisible >in the e-mail. Network logs will show that a given employee >requested, say, preteen_bestial.gif from >www.loathsome-sex-offenders.com. Even better, if the company has >spyware in place, the jack-booted network thugs won't even have to >be notified by the trickster before grassing him out to senior management." > Practically speaking, an employee who had only this 1x1 tracking pic in his e-mail could probably make a good defense. Unless his employer was looking for _any_ excuse to fire him, the lack of an actual, viewable picture or message from him acknowledging the content...probably would get him off the hook. On the other hand, the U.S. is moving toward having schools and employers adopt mechanistic "zero tolerance" policies. In recent cases, merely having a tiny GIF of a gun is enough to have a child suspended and parents sentenced to "counseling." (Note that "counseling" and "political re-education" are the same thing.) In a free society, free economy, then employers and employees are much more flexible. A solid contributor would not be fired for something so trivial as having a porn picture embedded in some minor way. Hell, a solid contributor probably wouldn't be fired even for sending MPEG porn movies to his buddies! But we are not in a free society, are we? We are in a legal environment where some on-the-rag Personnel Dept. bimbo can decide to "make an example" of some shlub engineer who is caught clicking on Danni's Hot Box after work. The shlub's manager probably can't do anything except beg that both he and his subordinate be sent to 6 weeks of sensitivity training. If the bitch is feeling in control, she may assent to this. If not, or if the company fears being sued by offended employees or others, the shlub will be fired and the manager alone will be sent in for an ideological tune-up. The Thought Policeman Inside. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Wed Dec 13 06:45:03 2000 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:45:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Important Membership Information Message-ID: <200012131445.JAA23036@web80t.lga2.nytimes.com> Dear cypherpunsl2132, Welcome to NYTimes.com! We are delighted that you have decided to become a member of our community. As a member you now have complete access to the Web's premier source for news and information -- free of charge. NYTimes.com not only provides you with in-depth coverage of events happening around the world but also with a wealth of additional features and services. The site is updated regularly throughout the day by New York Times reporters and editors to give you greater insight into events unfolding throughout the day. No matter what the hour, you can look to NYTimes.com for the most trustworthy coverage available and unique perspective you won't find anywhere else. Please feel free to explore the other areas of NYTimes.com. Here are some starting points you may find useful: ** Get NYTimes.com headlines e-mailed directly to you. Choose from the day's top stories, breaking news alerts and your favorite sections: http://email.nytimes.com/email/email.jsp?welcome ** Search and retrieve articles from The New York Times Archives back to 1996. Searches and summaries of articles are free, but there is a small fee for full text. http://archives.nytimes.com/archives?welcome ** Explore the Help Wanted and other classified listings on the Web: http://www.nytimes.com/jobmarket/?welcome ** Get a free photo screensaver from The New York Times Photo Archives Choose from Vintage New York, Americana, Coney Island and more: http://www.nytimes.com/partners/screensaver/index.html?welcome ** Search our archive of 50,000 book reviews, listen to author interviews or sign-up for an exclusive weekly newsletter from our Books Editor: http://www.nytimes.com/books/home?welcome Thank you again for becoming a member. We hope that you will make a point of visiting the site often. Sincerely, Rich Meislin, Editor in Chief New York Times Digital P.S. Your opinions are important to us. 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From bmm at minder.net Wed Dec 13 06:58:35 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:58:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim, By CDR-like, I meant that it might be useful to grow the list in a manner similar to the cypherpunks list in order both to protect against SPoF as well as to distribute load (alt.anonymous.messages is pretty high-traffic - even compared to cypherpunks). How nodes would connect is TBD. Most CDR admins have rolled their own method of doing this. Thanks, -Brian -- bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > With respect to the 'CDR like' comments, can you better explain how this > works? Who does one contact? What sort of scripting is required? > > You also might want to reduce the default resend period on this list if > possible. The 4 day normal for sendmail might be problematic. Set it to > something like 1 day. > > On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, BMM wrote: > > > I would like to announce the "secret-admirers" mail list. > > > > The "secret-admirers" list is intended to function in a manner similar > > to the well-known Usenet newsgroup "alt.anonymous.messages". This > > newsgroup serves as a dead drop for communications in which the recipient > > wishes to remain unknown. > > > > While access to a Usenet news server is unavailable in many environments, > > the ubiquity and flexibility of e-mail may be advantageous for the > > following reasons: > > > > - Penetration: More people having access to (pseudo|ano)nymizing tools > > is generally a good thing. > > - Pool Size: Higher utilization of the message pool may frustrate > > traffic analysis. The list may be gatewayed back into > > alt.anonymous.messages or vice versa. CDR-like > > nodes for redistribution may be established to reduce > > load on individual nodes. > > - Filtering: E-mail filtering tools are widely available, allowing > > recipients to draw only pertinent messages from the > > pool by filtering on tokens which have been negotiated > > out-of-band or by the public key to which a message has > > been encrypted. > > > > The mail list is unmoderated and accepts messages from any submitter. > > Submissions may be sent to "secret-admirers at minder.net" or > > "sa at minder.net". > > > > TO SUBSCRIBE to the list, send a message with "subscribe secret-admirers" > > in the body to majordomo at minder.net. The more subscribers, the better, > > even if procmail just sends it to /dev/null. > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from the list, send a message with "unsubscribe > > secret-admirers" to majordomo at minder.net. > > > > A digest of this list is available. This list is not currently archived. > > From declan at well.com Wed Dec 13 07:11:44 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:11:44 -0500 Subject: CDR:Re: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: ; from rguerra@yahoo.com on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 11:17:15PM -0500 References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: <20001213101144.A3798@cluebot.com> Different standards aren't necessarily bad either. Local jurisdictions have a substantial amount of leeway in ballot design in Florida, which, Democratic partisan protests notwithstanding, is probably a reasonable thing. In other areas of the law, they have the opportunity to craft laws and rules that are more suitable to their area of the country. Local control and competition among different standards set by different local communities generally is a good thing. If nothing else, it's the way the U.S. political system was set up to work. -Declan On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 11:17:15PM -0500, Robert Guerra wrote: > In article <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0 at golem>, "Me" > wrote: > > > is there any benefit to the 'canadian system' above it's lack of > > lawyers? > > Having a plethora of different standards sure doesn't help.. > In Canada, and other countries there is a uniform ballot across the > country..something that hopefully will be introduced into the USA real > soon. > > > i dont see why any of these methods are inherently > > better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. > > Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting chads on punch > card ballots > > > speaking of canadian elections, its too bad the canadian alliance > > didnt get elected and revoke bill c-68 g, eh? > > Polls before the election were correct and the alliance didn't win. 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There is a catch-YOU need to FOLLOW THROUGH to make it work.There is little effort involved as it's not something for nothing.If no one played the lottery or did the pools,the chemes wouldn't work.Most people are happy to spend a few pounds each week and KNOW they will NEVER win. Just follow through on this one and be a WINNER.Make it work for YOU and we will all reap rewards. Dear Friend My name is Sally Brooker.In December 1995 I lost my job when the company I was working for went out of business.The bills kept coming in and i found it increasingly hard to make ends meet.I was at my wits end.In January 1996 ,a good friend recieved a letter from a self made millionaire,David Rhodes from Norfolk,showing her how to earn #50,000 quickly and easily.My friend was very sceptical but by then i was really desperate so,as i had nothing to lose and everything to gain,i borrowed some money from my father and gave it a try. The response was beyond my wildest dreams.By March i had paid back all the borrowed money and had enough left to treat my parents to a holiday in Spain.In June,I bought a new car for CASH I have now earned over #280000 and have recently bought a new house.I am convinced i will become a millionaire in the next 12-18 months.This programme has worked perfectly every time and I HAVE NEVER FAILED TO RECIEVE AT LEAST #50,000 FROM EACH MAILING. This is a legitimate business opportunity :an absolute legal money making programme. It requires no selling or special skills and best of all you only need to leave home to post a few letters.If you belive that some day YOUR DREAMS WILL COME TRUE and you'll be the one to get that lucky break then simply read and follow the instructions below.IT REALLY DOES WORK. FOLLOW THESE NEST FIVE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY WITHIN SIXTY DAYS AND YOU WILL RECIEVE AT LEAST #50,000 CASH 1). Immediately send #1 coin to each of the seven names below.Sellotape the #1 coins inside some folded cards with your name address and postcode clearly written and the instructions "please add my name to your mailing list" and seal these cards inside envelopes for security purposes.This is a legitimate business service for which you are paying seven people the sum of #1 each. 1.G Bishop 19 Strathalmond Park Edinburgh,Lothian EH4 8AJ 2.J.Weyland 3 Kent Road Rusholme Manchester M14 5RF 3.S.khadim 30 Cawdor Road Fallowfields Manchester 4.K Smith 60 Park Lea Bradley Huddersfield HD2 1QH 5.A Hayyat 23 Holly Court room 166 oak house manchester m14 6hx 6.F.Brighton 23 Wharfedale Runcorn Chesire WA7 6PS 7 K.B SYKES 4 Cowlersley Lane Huddersfield HD4 5TY 2) Remove the name from position 1 on the list and move all the other names up one place,so that number 2 become number 1 and so on.Then insert your name and address in position 7.Now all you need to do is email this to all your friends or send out letters to a mailing list.It is not necessary to pay for printing in order to do this,this can be done easily by typing or printing the seven names and addresses on a strip of paper and gluing it over the existing names and addresses before photocopying or if you have a computer before retyping. 3) Photocopy or print 200 or more double sided copies of this letter (or use email whichever seems easier) which now has your name in position 7.(TIP the more you send the more you will earn). 4)(if using mail) Buy a list of 200 or more "opportuniy seekers" on self adhesive labels from a mailing list company.Some are listed below and many others in Exchange & Mart, Yellow Pages, Sunday Papers etc Links direct 23 lancaster drive titbury burton on trent staffs DE13 9LT 01283 815333 new horizons scope house weston road crewe chesire CW1 1DD 01270 250822 sharesv 24 tranmere crescent hatsham morecambe lancs LA3 2BD 01524 851245 imprint publishing 01320 340210 national mailing list 01246 290604 maple marketing 0181 8139868 MAKE SURE THE MAIL SHOT IS ON QUALITY LEADS BECAUSE THIS WILL AFFECT YOUR RESPONSE RATE Whle you are waiting for your mailing labels to arrive,your photocopied literature can be put in envelopes,sealed and stamps affixed.As soon as your labels arrive stick one to each envelope and post them to arrive on Friday or Saturday.The reason for this is because most people only like to look at things when they have time, which is invariably on the weekends Within 60 days you will recieve around #50,000 cash provided you have followed the instructions precisely.Keep a copy of this letter so that you can use it again whenever you need to make money. NOTE 1. As we are all just ordinary people seeking security,please play the game fairly.Be honest and do unto others as you would expect them to do unto you.That is do not try any short cuts or miss anything out. 2.As soon as you mail out these letters,you are automatically in the mail order business and people are sending you #1 to be placed on your mailing list.This is a service and is perfectly legal but you must send #1 to everyone on this list in order to make the contract and the mailing list legal. 3. You will only succeed if you follow the rules exactly,so please never break the rules. FACTORS THAT HOW DOES IT WORK When you mail out 200 letters or emails,at the modest response rate of 4% from your 200 letters/emails,8 people will send you #1.These people will send out their 200 letters (total 1600) and at the same rate 64 people will send you #1.These 64 people will send out their 200 letters (total 12,800 and so on) and at the 4% rate 512 people will send you #1.When these 512 people each send out 200 letters then a further 4,096 people will each send you #1.When 4,096 people send out 200 letters then an amxing 32,768 people will send you #1. That means a total of #299592 cash. Even if you only achieve the very poor response rate of 0.3% from your 200 letters,you will still recieve #55,986 cash at the end.However,when you obtain the truly realistic response rate of 5% you will actually recieve the staggering sum of over #1 million cash. David Rhodes and others exceeded 7.5% through a quality mailing list NOTHING VENTURED-NOTHING GAINED So read what two people who took the plunge have to say " About 10 months ago i recieved a letter from David Rhodes but instead of acting immediately i put it to one side and then lost it.Fortunately luck was on my side because a few weeks later this letter from Sally Brooker dropped through my letter box.This time i did it straight away but nothing happened for a couple of weeks.Then the money started rolling in and now im better off to the tune of #63,000.i recommend that you follow the instructions and have a go.I'm glad i did " "I am a sceptic by nature .i recieved at least 4 letters similar to this in the last nine months.However ,there was something different about this particular letter that caught my attention.It was down to earth,simple and honest.the intial cot is minimal and i also like the fact that all the participants recieved money,not just the person at the top of the list.I followed the instructions and sent off 7 #1 coins followed by 200 letters and hoped for the best.Nothing happened for the next 11 days then on the 12th day i recieved #48.by the end of the third week i recieved #609 but over the following 5 months i recieved a total of #131,879.I am going to do it again but this time i will send out 1000 letters.I know this sounds greedy ,but why not? " BUT REMEMBER THE GOLDEN RULE ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS-SO DO IT NOW!!! Please do not throw away this oppurtunity to make money.if you are still not interested then give this letter to someonne in need who may be unemployed so they can earn good money at home or share it with a friend.But why not do it yourself? What have you got to lose? Balanced against what you have to gain! Okay there's some effort involved so you have 2 choices-Do nothing ,Nothing will change! or do it and change everything! .Without casting a fishing line,how can you expect to catch a fish? So it is entirely up to you.Once again consider all the fact &factors and ask yourself "how genuine of an oppurtunity is it? AN OPPORTUNITY LIKE THIS HAPPENS ONCE IN A LIFETIME THE OUTLAY IS NEXT TO NOTHING-GIVE IT A TRY-YOU WILL BE AMAZED! YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT EVERYTHING TO GAIN. GOOD LUCK!!! if you think this message was sent in error or would like to be removed from the mailing list please reply with remove in the subject field From sunder at sunder.net Wed Dec 13 07:37:50 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:37:50 -0500 Subject: This is why HTML email is evil. Message-ID: <3A3797CE.92BAB413@sunder.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15423.html "For a very sweet dirty trick along those lines, one could embed a link to a porn picture on-line, resized at 1x1 so it's invisible in the e-mail. Network logs will show that a given employee requested, say, preteen_bestial.gif from www.loathsome-sex-offenders.com. Even better, if the company has spyware in place, the jack-booted network thugs won't even have to be notified by the trickster before grassing him out to senior management." -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 13 02:43:34 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:43:34 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A3752D6.5213A7CB@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > If morality is merely relative, then what is wrong with murdering a few > million jews, kulaks, or people as irritating as James A. Donald? All a > matter of perspective, isn't it? or indians, right? "the only good indian is a dead indian". all of our countries have a bloody past. some are just more recent than others. all were over before I was born, so they're all alike to me. as to your question: you are close. there are, of course, a lot of things wrong with killing any large number of any people. however, try describing one completely without adding a personal belief or ethic background. example: killing 1 mio. jews is evil, because - because of what? there's a lot of "becauses", but none of them works without a subjective set of ethics. you won't find a "because" that has the structure of, say, a mathematical proof. > > "evil" could, I believe, be *defined* as "the term pretty much > > everyone uses to describe his or her enemies". > > People who use this definition have a disturbing tendency to define entire > social groups, races, classes, as their enemies. I agree. > The reason we define certain killings as murder is not because "the bible > tells us so", but because we want to know if a killing indicates that the > killer is apt to kill murderously. > > In practice we notice that one piece of metal is like another, and other > kinds of metal unlike, and we call one such group of pieces of metal > "iron", "iron" being our word for that commonality that makes them > alike. The naming does not make it iron, but the character of the metal > itself. > > Similarly we observe that one deed, and one man, is like another, and > another unlike, and we call one such group of men and deeds "evil", "evil" > being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. you are changing the meaning of "we" without noticing it. in the 2nd paragraph, "we" means pretty much everyone. in the third, "we" is much smaller. for example, the nazis would certainly have agreed to calling iron "eisen" (the german word for "iron"). however, they didn't call the mass murdering of jews that. maybe that's because they were evil, but now you have a snake that's eating it's own tail, because you allow only people who are not evil to define what evil means. > They crossed the "is ought gap" without the slightest difficulty, and so > does everyone else except for monsters and philosophers. I find it > striking that many of the philosophers who have such great difficulty with > this alleged gap have some connection to monstrous regimes. Not all of > them by any means, but most of them. that's because they are so readily abused by them. almost everyone is prone to not listening to what someone else really has to say, but to draw conclusions quickly. go into any anti-nazi newsgroup and argue a careful position, ask for evidence and draw conclusions only from facts. want to make a bet on how long it takes until you're called a nazi? to the politicians: the point here is that they could expect (and were obviously right so) that the vast majority of readers has a very similiar definition of "evil" and other details of ethic background. had they spoken not to their own people, but to the people of serbia, they could not have "crossed the gap" with such ease. it's almost a shame that the cultural differences on the globe become smaller and smaller every year. today, if you want to find a really interesting example (people who think it's unacceptable to, say, eat in public) today, you have to refer to some almost-extinct tribe in the middle of somewhere nobody ever heard about. From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 13 02:45:52 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:45:52 +0100 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator References: Message-ID: <3A375360.4A1B00CD@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > Someone could make a little Perl or Python script to let the > computers do all the work. or reorganize the stuff into a square for a quick round of "cyperpunks buzzword bingo". :) From rsw at mit.edu Wed Dec 13 08:57:36 2000 From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:57:36 -0500 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: ; from bmm@minder.net on Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 09:58:35AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001213115736.C26741@positron.mit.edu> BMM wrote: > By CDR-like, I meant that it might be useful to grow the list in a manner > similar to the cypherpunks list in order both to protect against SPoF as > well as to distribute load (alt.anonymous.messages is pretty high-traffic > - even compared to cypherpunks). How nodes would connect is TBD. Most > CDR admins have rolled their own method of doing this. Would it be useful to subscribe this list to random junk mail lists in order to reduce the SNR? Doing so, one could hide messages as random spam with ease. Perhaps this is only necessary as a startup transient measure, just to get the traffic on the list to the point where traffic analysis isn't trivial. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From marco.bodina at inwind.it Wed Dec 13 03:06:25 2000 From: marco.bodina at inwind.it (marco.bodina at inwind.it) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:06:25 +0100 Subject: Informations Message-ID: I am writing a Thesys concernig e-banking and risk anda I'll be very pleasued if you can give me some sites to fisit to found some informations. Thank you Marco From bmm at minder.net Wed Dec 13 09:09:02 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:09:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: <20001213115736.C26741@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: Sure. Maybe "sa at minder.net" is an address one should keep in mind when registering on the website of some company you don't particularly want to receive junk mail from. Donate your spam to a good cause! Thanks, -Brian -- bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > BMM wrote: > > By CDR-like, I meant that it might be useful to grow the list in a manner > > similar to the cypherpunks list in order both to protect against SPoF as > > well as to distribute load (alt.anonymous.messages is pretty high-traffic > > - even compared to cypherpunks). How nodes would connect is TBD. Most > > CDR admins have rolled their own method of doing this. > > Would it be useful to subscribe this list to random junk mail lists in > order to reduce the SNR? Doing so, one could hide messages as random > spam with ease. > > Perhaps this is only necessary as a startup transient measure, just to > get the traffic on the list to the point where traffic analysis isn't > trivial. > > -- > Riad Wahby > rsw at mit.edu > MIT VI-2/A 2002 > > 5105 > From ultratrim2000 at aol.com Wed Dec 13 12:54:05 2000 From: ultratrim2000 at aol.com (ultratrim2000 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:54:05 Subject: FAST WEIGHT LOSS, GUARANTEED! Message-ID: <719.649612.488482@mail01.homeworkers23232.com> *****AMAZING MELT AWAY FAT ABSORBER CAPSULES***** LOSE 30 POUNDS IN 30 DAYS... GUARANTEED!!! All Natural Weight-Loss Program, Speeds Up The Metabolism Safely Rated #1 In Both Categories of SAFETY & EFFECTIVENESS In (THE USA TODAY) WE'LL HELP YOU GET THINNER IN WINTER!!! 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Shipping Name______________________________________________ Shipping Address___________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ Shipping City,State,Zip ___________________________________________________________ Country ___________________________________________________________ Email Address & Phone Number(Please Write Neat) From jf_avon at videotron.ca Wed Dec 13 09:59:13 2000 From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:59:13 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Roadside DNA Tests On Citizens Planned Message-ID: <200012131725.JAA25360@toad.com> http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003986439041226&rtmo=aCau54uJ&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/00/12/10/nkit10.html Electronic Telegraph, UK, Dec 10 2000 Roadside DNA tests planned By David Cracknell, Deputy Political Editor DRIVERS or other people stopped by police could be asked to supply on-the-spot hair or saliva samples to identify whether they are wanted criminals. Government scientists have developed a hand-held DNA testing kit to be carried and operated by police officers during regular patrols. The device would be electronically linked to the national DNA database, which Tony Blair has hailed as an essential tool in the fight against crime. The Forensic Science Service will disclose to Parliament this week that the equipment could be ready for standard use within a couple of years. The testing kit, which could become as common as the breathalyser or police baton, will dramatically cut the time it takes to match DNA evidence from crime scenes to suspects. It will raise fresh fears among civil liberties campaigners who believe that the pendulum has swung too far in the police's direction. Forensic scientists already expect that soon they will be able to use a single hair sample to discover a suspect's eye colour, facial characteristics, height and weight. They say that the next step will be portable testing kits that need little technical ability to operate. The FSS will give evidence to the House of Lords science and technology committee this week, telling peers that research on the kits is well advanced. It currently takes at least 48 hours to profile biological material collected from a crime scene, but the new kits could give police an instant lead if they were made standard issue. They would allow such tests to be carried out outside the laboratory for the first time. A spokesman for the FSS, which is a Government agency, said: "We feel that we have gone as far down the line as we can in terms of what a DNA profile can tell us about an individual and the next area we are looking at is speeding up the process." The Telegraph has seen written evidence to the Lords committee from one of the organisation's chief scientists, Dr Bob Bramley, and research documents. The committee began its inquiry after becoming concerned about the dramatic increase in the scale of DNA samples collected by the police. Earlier this year, the Prime Minister announced an extra £109 million for the expansion of the police's DNA database in Birmingham to include samples from "the entire active criminal population" - estimated to be around three million. The police have already collected nearly a million samples from those convicted of an offence that carries a prison sentence. Senior officers are now lobbying for changes in the law to allow further expansion of the database to include innocent people who volunteer to take part in mass screenings. Civil liberties campaigners are opposing any extension of the police's authority to to collect samples. They cite an official report which found that thousands of samples are being illegally held on the database because forces are failing to remove the records of acquitted suspects. John Wadham, the director of the human rights group Liberty, said: "The law already allows the unjustified collection of samples and we know that there are at least 50,000 being illegally held at the FSS database. This is not the time to relax the law." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Dec 13 14:40:44 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:40:44 -0800 Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7435@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: <3A37FAEC.97575407@lsil.com> > "Carskadden, Rush" wrote: > > Well, hell, that's what I said. > Well I'll be! I guess you did! > But you make it sound so much more > _clear_. I don't remember who was saying that geodesic definition is > based solely on local information, but that appears to be the major > roadblock for our logic. > Mathematically I think that's correct. Isn't the blockage the idea that a structure ( the economic network ) must necessarily reflect 1:1 the underlying structures ( transport, communication ) on which it depends? > If I could find out where this stipulation is coming from > the idea that network == internet ? > and figure out the necessary logical proofs, you could > possibly have a water-tight buzzword. > Just the thing to keep the softening economy afloat. Pass it on to the new prez, he'll like it and it will the communication of his ideas to the citizens more effective. > I don't believe I have ever > heard one of those (the marketing favorite, "paradigm shift" is an > excellent example of why buzzwords don't have to be logical anyway). > Paradigm shifts are very real. Every time I spend 20 cents. Isn't the "synergy" on this list encouraging? > > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > > Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > We *do* all trade with our neighbors so your term is only trouble > when > > looking at the wrong part of the geometry. With trade the > > measure should > > not be based on physical space or network geometry, those are > > transient > > and permutable, rather the measure should be based on the proximity > of > > the parties in terms of goods consumed, goods produced and > > pricing. The > > networks are not electrical or geographical they're economic. So > while > > it does affect cost all this communication and transportation > > technology > > is only the physical layer. > > > > Mike > > From carskar at netsolve.net Wed Dec 13 13:42:59 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:42:59 -0600 Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7435@cobra.netsolve.net> Well, hell, that's what I said. But you make it sound so much more _clear_. I don't remember who was saying that geodesic definition is based solely on local information, but that appears to be the major roadblock for our logic. If I could find out where this stipulation is coming from and figure out the necessary logical proofs, you could possibly have a water-tight buzzword. I don't believe I have ever heard one of those (the marketing favorite, "paradigm shift" is an excellent example of why buzzwords don't have to be logical anyway). > -----Original Message----- > From: mmotyka at lsil.com [mailto:mmotyka at lsil.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 11:19 AM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz > > > > Bob, > > We *do* all trade with our neighbors so your term is only trouble when > looking at the wrong part of the geometry. With trade the > measure should > not be based on physical space or network geometry, those are > transient > and permutable, rather the measure should be based on the proximity of > the parties in terms of goods consumed, goods produced and > pricing. The > networks are not electrical or geographical they're economic. So while > it does affect cost all this communication and transportation > technology > is only the physical layer. > > Mike > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was