From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 1 04:43:34 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:43:34 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... Message-ID: <3A279CB6.C57EBE78@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: > The behaviour of the leading proponents of crypto-anarchy when faced with > 'non-compliant' behaviour is clear evidence of why the philosophy doesn't > work. Hang about! No-one has shot at you, confiscated your computer, tried to block or bomb your nodes, sued you, complained to any government officials about you, or written any nasty letters to your mother. All that has happened is some complaints. You can carry on doing what you want, if you want to put up with others having a lower opinion of you. They can carry on doing what they want & if their opinion gets low enough they can ignore you. If anything this is evidence that anarchy does work, at least in the limited-harm domain of a mailing list. Any functioning political anarchy would have to have more local, personal social sanctions on behaviour than an authoritarian society, not less. More one-to-one sanctions, peer-to-peer political interaction, (RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of economics :-) A state society can rely on one-to-many flows of political or social pressure, the government & big business can deal with people as the masses. A natural outgrowth of the one-to-many techniques of cheap mass communications (OK, maybe Hettinga is right after all). The cypherpunks list is a sandpit of many-to-many communications, a realm in which anarchy is the natural, technologically favoured, form of social control. And complaining about the behaviour of others is exactly the sort of social control you'd expect to see happening in an anarchy. Anarchy is a great way to organise mailing lists, peasant villages, and regular evenings at the pub. Maybe it's a great way to organise large-scale industrial societies as well, it remains to be seen. But anarchy doesn't have to mean nobody tells you what to do - it just means that no one person (natural person like a king, or corporate person, like a state) tells everybody else what to do. In anarchy everyone is free to tell you what to do, and you are free to ignore them. Until you piss them off once too often of course... Ken Brown (wow! an on-topic post for once!) From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 1 08:02:33 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:02:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic Message-ID: I think that what we really need is some kind of NNTP-like system that distributes encrypted packets instead of cleartext ones. If you want to baffle traffic analysis, just create a system where they can't tell the difference between your emails and tons and tons of news traffic. It's not like you could really escape regulation here; if people can't read it, it isn't news. But you could provide a bunch of encrypted traffic on the same port as any encrypted- mail distribution or encrypted-web system (a la freedom) during the news distribution - and you could read news without any news hosts anywhere knowing which news you were reading. Hell, you could even gateway some usenet groups through it if you wanted to give it a kick-start. And you could have your own groups available only on the crypto grapevine. They would serve as message mixes, in some cases. You wouldn't want to follow the classic hierarchical distribution model that usenet uses; that makes any differently-routed traffic stand out. But NNTP is actually pretty flexible about how messages get passed, and could be deployed in a fractal way as easily as a hierarchical way, at the cost of distribution being a bit slower. With straight NNTP, the overhead of organizational messages would be raised; but it could be made more efficient again using hashes on multiple messages so that different hosts could quickly check for identical lists of posts and quickly discover any that were missing in either direction. Bear From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 1 08:30:27 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:30:27 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001201083027.0092f1b0@idiom.com> (Tim and "Riad S. Wahby" have been discussing mail formats for PGP.) Riad's latest message worked fine - it's the first time in a while I've seen Mutt sending PGP-signed messages that were actually readable with Eudora (in other words, they're Just Text, not some kind of broken MIME attachment.) Looks like you're using Mutt 1.2.5i. What settings did you use for other parameters? On my system, by the way, the previous message didn't launch MSWord; it asked me what application to use to read the message (and I told it Notepad, since I expected it to be text.) Tim probably picked one the Evil Empire tool sometime in the past, though perhaps it's a Mac-specific thing. At 11:41 AM 11/30/00 -0500, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > >*** PGP Signature Status: unknown >*** Signer: Unknown, Key ID = 0x1931C6A6 >*** Signed: 11/30/2000 8:41:06 AM >*** Verified: 12/01/2000 7:36:23 AM >*** BEGIN PGP VERIFIED MESSAGE *** > >Tim May wrote: >> No, it _doesn't_ work. Clicking on your "mutt-positron" icon >> presented to me in Eudora caused Microsoft Word to launch on my >> system. Which gave me this message: > >Oh, how embarrassing. I forgot to make the Content-disposition: field >inline instead of attachment. This was the source of the problem for >Eudora. > >I believe that is fixed now, and I've tested it with the copy of >Eudora Pro I have sitting on my Windows box. > >-- >Riad Wahby >rsw at mit.edu >MIT VI-2/A 2002 > >5105 > >*** END PGP VERIFIED MESSAGE *** > > > > Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From xinruanxin at kali.com.cn Fri Dec 1 08:46:53 2000 From: xinruanxin at kali.com.cn (xinruanxin at kali.com.cn) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:46:53 Subject: xinruanxin Message-ID: <20001201004511.IGBI381.public@plain> Please visit my homepage http://www.nease.net/~edward http://xrx.yeah.net There is many game,photo,mp3,book in there ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sohusoft - Search Emailaddress and do mass mailing Marketing for you http://www.flashsendmail.com From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 1 08:56:53 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 08:56:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: > >> Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] wrote >> >> I think that what we really need is some kind of NNTP-like system >> that distributes encrypted packets instead of cleartext ones. If >> you want to baffle traffic analysis, just create a system where >> they can't tell the difference between your emails and tons and >> tons of news traffic. >> > [...] > > >You mean like the long standing and active news group >alt.anonymous.messages, but different? Yes, different. alt.anonymous.messages is simply a message mix. I'm talking about a system that would provide lots of encrypted traffic *ON THE SAME PORTS* as whatever other encrypted traffic you were sending. IOW, no one should be able to look at logs and say, "well, we can ignore that packet, it's NNTP. This other packet over here is mail, and probably the thing we're after..." In a more general statement, I guess I'm saying that encrypted traffic should not be segregated into different services - at least not so you can tell which are which without decrypting. and furthermore, even high-volume ordinary traffic - like rec.pets.cats - should be distributed by encrypted means, so you can't tell at the protocol level what's inside. Bear From lists at politechbot.com Fri Dec 1 06:13:46 2000 From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:13:46 -0500 Subject: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: <20001129231140.B23196@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 10:50:20PM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> <20001129231140.B23196@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001201093725.A13340@cluebot.com> Vatis ducked out at the last minute and sent his deputy. Cypherpunks will note another familiar face there: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-17/aba-netspionage-broadcast.html -Declan On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 10:50:20PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 04:52:49PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > > I don't know what "NIPC" means, but I thought at first you meant that > > NIPC was in Lithuania. Perhaps not. > > FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center. I'm on an ABA > panel tomorrow with Michael Vatis, the head. Should be cybercast; I'll > find details. > > -Declan > > From declan at well.com Fri Dec 1 06:15:25 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:15:25 -0500 Subject: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73DC@cobra.netsolve.net>; from carskar@netsolve.net on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 12:32:29PM -0500 References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73DC@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: <20001201093916.B13340@cluebot.com> I'm not bragging; I'm simply stating facts. It is not unreasonable, or unexpected, for journalists to know the bureaucrats and politicians whom they write about. I have met Mike; I was on a panel with him in NYC circa June. I've also seen him at other events. -Declan On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 12:32:29PM -0500, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > And you are bragging about this? Jeez. Have you MET the guy yet? > So tell us, what was discussed, and where can we find it? > > > -----Original Message----- > X-Loop: openpgp.net > From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 9:50 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list > Subject: Re: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking > > > > On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 04:52:49PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > > I don't know what "NIPC" means, but I thought at first you meant that > > NIPC was in Lithuania. Perhaps not. > > FBI's National Infrastructure Protection Center. I'm on an ABA > panel tomorrow with Michael Vatis, the head. Should be cybercast; I'll > find details. > > -Declan > From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Fri Dec 1 09:52:34 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:52:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pigs Blind Woman, Then Arrest Her for "Interfering" Message-ID: <200012011752.eB1HqYr00439@artifact.psychedelic.net> A further deminstration that all the citizen-units in Los Angeles are not worth one cop's manicure. http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/national/ap213.htm ----- LOS ANGELES (AP) -- A Los Angeles Police Department officer shot a beauty salon owner three times with a beanbag shotgun because he thought she was reaching in her jacket for a weapon. The shooting early Monday severely injured one of Annette Amoroso's eyes and she was expected to lose the eye. Amoroso, 38, said in an interview from her hospital room Thursday that officers ordered her to the ground as they investigated a report early Monday that the sport utility vehicle she was riding in was stolen. ''I was on my knees, with my hands up, and my back to them,'' Amoroso told the Los Angeles Times. ''First, they shot me in the shoulder. As I started to turn around, they shot me in the eye.'' ... Amoroso was expected to have her right eye removed Friday. She was arrested on suspicion of interfering with an investigation. ... -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From hahaha at sexyfun.net Fri Dec 1 07:09:32 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:09:32 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012011508.KAA29789@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sexy virgin.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Dec 1 07:28:12 2000 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:28:12 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Message-ID: Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Fri Dec 1 07:36:13 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:36:13 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BD8@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 680 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Fri Dec 1 07:42:15 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:42:15 -0500 Subject: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001201074139.008172c0@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:25 AM 12/1/00 -0500, Gil Hamilton wrote: >Norton AntiVirus found a virus in an attachment from Hahaha. > You had to check? [Transl for Unixen: a .scr under Windoze is a screensaver, ie, executable.] From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Fri Dec 1 08:12:50 2000 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:12:50 -0500 Subject: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" References: <3.0.6.32.20001201074139.008172c0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <006b01c05bb1$3a610630$05d3ae95@zh8qw> YES. NORTON ANTIVIRUS BLOCKED IT. Pier Carlo Montecucchi Montegen ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "David Honig" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" > At 10:25 AM 12/1/00 -0500, Gil Hamilton wrote: > >Norton AntiVirus found a virus in an attachment from Hahaha. > > > > You had to check? > > [Transl for Unixen: a .scr under Windoze is a screensaver, ie, executable.] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 1 08:16:22 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:16:22 -0500 Subject: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: <20001201093725.A13340@cluebot.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 9:13 AM -0500 on 12/1/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Cypherpunks > will note another familiar face there: > > http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-17/aba-netspionage-broadcast.html Stewwwwieeeee!!!! The man who personally told Mr. Pizza Connection, Looie "The Tap" Freeh, the only man in legal history to make his AAG bones on wiretap data alone, that the crypto pony was out of the barn and that he'd better hurry up and catch it before it got away. Pity he left on his Gucci loafers instead of changing into his Green Wellies. Yuck, Looie, wipe off your feet before you go into the Oval office, next time. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From hahaha at sexyfun.net Fri Dec 1 08:23:54 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:23:54 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012011623.LAA05481@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: midgets.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Dec 1 08:28:24 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:28:24 -0500 Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic Message-ID: > Ray Dillinger[SMTP:bear at sonic.net] wrote > > I think that what we really need is some kind of NNTP-like system > that distributes encrypted packets instead of cleartext ones. If > you want to baffle traffic analysis, just create a system where > they can't tell the difference between your emails and tons and > tons of news traffic. > [...] You mean like the long standing and active news group alt.anonymous.messages, but different? Peter Trei From ericm at lne.com Fri Dec 1 08:34:33 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:34:33 -0500 Subject: IBM Cries Crypto Wolf, Experts Say In-Reply-To: <734f3334a3b95bdadc44217866bbf5fc@anon.xg.nu>; from no.user@anon.xg.nu on Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 08:42:07PM -0500 References: <734f3334a3b95bdadc44217866bbf5fc@anon.xg.nu> Message-ID: <20001201083346.F10845@slack.lne.com> On Thu, Nov 30, 2000 at 08:42:07PM -0500, No User wrote: > > Big Blue says it can make encryption twice as fast. But the company hyped a similar advancement years ago; experts say that idea didn't amount to much, and this one won't either. > By Elinor Abreu > IBM is announcing a new algorithm on Thursday that it says will double the speed at which online communications are encrypted. But several crypto experts say that IBM is fixing something that isn't broken and that Big Blue has a history of tooting its horn needlessly. > > IBM's new as-yet-unnamed security algorithm simultaneously encrypts and authenticates messages. It works with symmetric cryptography in which the same secret key, or mathematical code, is used to encrypt and decrypt, as opposed to public key cryptography, in which two different keys are used. The new algorithm has been submitted to the U.S. Patent Office and proposed to the National Institute of Standards. I'm guessing what's described above is this: ************************* Stanford Security Seminar Charanjit Jutla of IBM Watson Thursday, Dec 7 at 4:15pm (Note unusual day) Gates 4B area ************************* Encryption Modes with Almost Free Message Integrity We define a new mode of operation for block encryption which in addition to assuring confidentiality also assures message integrity. In contrast, previously for message integrity a separate pass was required to compute a cryptographic message authentication code (MAC). The new mode of operation, called Integrity Aware CBC (IACBC), requires a total of m+log m block encryptions on a plain-text of length m blocks. The well known CBC (cipher block chaining) mode requires m block encryptions. The second pass of computing the CBC-MAC essentially requires additional m block encryptions. A new highly parallelizable mode (IAPM) is also shown to be secure for both encryption and message integrity. We also show a lower bound of Omega(log m) additional block encryptions for any reasonably modeled (linear) scheme which assures message integrity along with confidentiality. See http://crypto.stanford.edu/seclab/sem.html -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From rsw at MIT.EDU Fri Dec 1 08:41:32 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:41:32 -0500 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001201083027.0092f1b0@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 08:30:27AM -0800 References: <3.0.5.32.20001201083027.0092f1b0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20001201114132.A27253@positron.mit.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1220 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Fri Dec 1 08:59:09 2000 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:59:09 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Message-ID: Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Fri Dec 1 08:59:39 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:59:39 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BDA@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 675 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 1 09:01:10 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:01:10 -0500 Subject: Two MS mail viruses - SnowWhite and ShockwaveFlash In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001201074139.008172c0@pop.sprynet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001201090047.01ab9650@idiom.com> Well, we've got two gifts from Microsoft's email architecture going around this week. Not only is there the Snow White thing, but there's a Shockwave Flash thing that's spreading around as well. I don't know if it autoexecutes on Outlook, or if it's just an IBM-Christmas-Tree attack that entices users to click on it, but either way, don't be surprised if you get attachments sent to real email programs, and don't be surprised if email to/from big corporations using Exchange gets doggy for a while. There's more information on the Shockwave thing at vil.nai.com Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 1 09:03:10 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:03:10 -0500 Subject: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" In-Reply-To: <006b01c05bb1$3a610630$05d3ae95@zh8qw> Message-ID: No, it did not block it. I got the executable in a posting from openpgp.com. However, since I run Linux, it's pretty irrelevant to me. :-) Bear On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Pier Carlo Montecucchi wrote: >YES. > >NORTON ANTIVIRUS BLOCKED IT. > >Pier Carlo Montecucchi >Montegen > > >----- Original Message ----- >X-Loop: openpgp.net >From: "David Honig" >To: "Multiple recipients of list" >Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 10:42 AM >Subject: Re: Warning: "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!" > > >> At 10:25 AM 12/1/00 -0500, Gil Hamilton wrote: >> >Norton AntiVirus found a virus in an attachment from Hahaha. >> > >> >> You had to check? >> >> [Transl for Unixen: a .scr under Windoze is a screensaver, ie, >executable.] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Dec 1 13:50:04 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:50:04 -0800 Subject: Pigs Blind Woman, Then Arrest Her for "Interfering" Message-ID: <3A281D0C.B2FCE63A@lsil.com> It's a top-down problem. They're only doing what they believe is their job as defined by their controllers. These sort of events just show what those in power think of their fellow citizens. Expect it to get worse if we get a Republican-controlled government and the resulting Republican Supreme Court appointees. Just look at the dissenters in the recent Indianapolis Drug Search decision. The Republicans seem to be more authoritarian than the Democrats though overall they both stink like last week's fish guts. From declan at well.com Fri Dec 1 11:16:29 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 14:16:29 -0500 Subject: Feds get a raise, thanks, Bill Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001201141613.01b6f0e0@mail.well.com> THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary _________________________________________________________________ For Immediate Release December 1, 2000 TEXT OF A LETTER FROM THE PRESIDENT TO THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE November 30, 2000 Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President:) I am transmitting an alternative plan for Federal employee locality-based comparability payments (locality pay) for 2001. Federal employees are the key to effective Government performance. During the last 8 years, the number of Federal employees has declined while their responsibilities have stayed the same or increased. Nonetheless, recent surveys show the American public believes it is now getting better quality and more responsible service from our Federal employees. We need to provide them fair and equitable compensation to recognize their important role, and to enable the Federal Government to continue to attract and retain a high-quality workforce. Under title 5, United States Code, most Federal civilian employees would receive a two-part pay raise in January 2001: (1) a 2.7 percent base salary raise linked to the part of the Employment Cost Index (ECI) that deals with changes in the wages and salaries of private industry workers; and (2) a locality pay raise, based on the Bureau of Labor Statistics' salary surveys of non-Federal employers in local pay areas, that would cost about 12.3 percent of payroll. Thus, on a cost-of-payroll basis, the total Federal employee pay increase for most employees would be about 15 percent in 2001. For each part of the two-part pay increase, title 5 gives me the authority to implement an alternative pay adjustment plan if I view the pay adjustment that would otherwise take effect as inappropriate because of "national emergency or serious economic conditions affecting the general welfare." Over the past three decades, Presidents have used this or similar authority for most annual Federal pay raises. In evaluating "an economic condition affecting the general welfare," the law directs me to consider such economic measures as the Index of Leading Economic Indicators, the Gross National Product, the unemployment rate, the budget deficit, the Consumer Price Index, the Producer Price Index, the Employment Cost Index, and the Implicit Price Deflator for Personal Consumption Expenditures. Earlier this year, I decided that I would implement -- effective in January 2001 -- the full 2.7 percent base salary adjustment. As a result, it was not necessary to transmit an alternative pay plan by the legal deadline (August 31) for that portion of the pay raise. In assessing the appropriate locality pay adjustment for 2001, I reviewed the indicators cited above along with other major economic indicators. As noted above, the full locality pay increases, when combined with the 2.7 percent base salary increase, would produce a total Federal civilian payroll increase of about 15 percent for most employees. In fiscal year (FY) 2001 alone, this increase would add $9.8 billion above the cost of the 3.7 percent increase I proposed in the fiscal 2001 Budget. A 15 percent increase in Federal pay would mark a fundamental change of our successful policy of fiscal discipline, and would invite serious economic risks -- in terms of the workings of the Nation's labor markets; inflation; the costs of maintaining Federal programs; and the impact of the Federal budget on the economy as a whole. First, an across-the-board 15 percent increase in Federal pay scales would be disruptive to labor markets across the country. This increase would be three to four times the recent average annual changes in private-sector compensation, built into the base of the pay structure not just for 2001, but for subsequent years as well. With job markets already tight and private firms reporting great difficulties in attracting and retaining skilled employees, this increase in Federal salaries could pull prospective job seekers away from private employment opportunities. Second, in the face of such a large Federal pay increase, private firms would almost certainly react by increasing their own wage offers. Thus, beyond the labor-market disruption of such a Federal pay increase, there would follow a serious risk of inflation; and that risk would far exceed the direct effects of the Federal pay raise taken in isolation. Pay rates economy-wide have already enticed a record percentage of the adult population into the labor force and paid employment. There are few unemployed or underemployed workers available for hire; if private firms need additional labor, they must raise their wage offers to attract workers from other firms. Such bidding wars for labor -- which constitutes roughly two-thirds of business costs in this economy -- have been at or near the core of all inflationary outbursts in our recent history. To date, intense competitive pressures have prevented private firms from allowing their wage offers to step out of line with productivity gains, and inflationary pressures have remained contained. However, a shock arising outside of the competitive labor market itself -- such as an administratively determined Federal pay increase -- could convince private business managers that they must increase their offers beyond the current norms. In the past to reverse accelerating inflation, the Nation paid an enormous toll through policies designed to slow the economy and reduce the pressure on prices. In numerous instances, the result was recession and sharp increases in unemployment. With labor markets as tight as they are we should not undertake a policy likely to shock the labor market. Third, Federal program managers are already under considerable pressure to meet their budgets, while still providing quality service to the taxpayers. Increasing the Federal employment costs at such an extraordinary rate would render those budgets inadequate to provide the planned level of services. Appropria-tions for the coming fiscal year have already been legislated for much of the Federal Government, and all sides hope that spending bills for the remaining agencies will pass in the very near future. In particular, agencies that have the greatest responsibility for person-to-person service -- the Social Security Administration, the Internal Revenue Service, and the Veterans Affairs healthcare programs, to name just three -- could not be expected to bear double-digit pay increases without the most thorough review and adjustment of their budgets. Finally, despite the current budget surpluses, the Federal Government continues to face substantial budgetary challenges. When my Administration took office in January 1993, we faced the largest budget deficit in the Nation's history -- over $290 billion in fiscal year (FY) 1992. By the projections of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), and every other authority, the deficit would only get bigger. Furthermore, under both of these projections, the public debt, and the interest burden from that debt, were expected to be in a vicious upward cycle. While we have pulled the budget back from this crisis, and in fact we have enjoyed the first budget surpluses since l969, adverse budgetary forces are just a few years away. The Social Security system will come under increasing pressure with the impending retirement of the large baby-boom generation. In addition, the aging of the population will increase costs for Medicare and Medicaid. If we become complacent because of the current budget surplus and increase spending now, the surplus could well be gone even before the baby-boom generation retires. My Administration has put these budgetary challenges front and center. A 15 percent Federal pay increase, built into the Government's cost base for all succeeding years, would be a dangerous step away from budget discipline. The budgetary restraint that produced the current budget surpluses must be maintained if we are to keep the budget sound into the retirement years of the baby boom generation. Therefore, I have determined that the total civilian raise of 3.7 percent that I proposed in my 2001 Budget remains appropriate. This raise matches the 3.7 percent basic pay increase that I proposed for military members in my 2001 Budget, and that was enacted in the FY 2001 Defense Authorization Act. Given the 2.7 percent base salary increase, the total increase of 3.7 percent allows an amount equal to 1.0 percent of payroll for increases in locality payments. Accordingly, I have determined that: Under the authority of section 5304a of title 5, United States Code, locality-based comparability payments in the amounts set forth on the attached table shall become effective on the first day of the first applicable pay period beginning on or after January 1, 2001. When compared with the payments currently in effect, these comparability payments will increase the General Schedule payroll by about 1.0 percent. Finally, the law requires that I include in this report an assessment of how my decisions will affect the Government's ability to recruit and retain well-qualified employees. I do not believe this will have any material impact on the quality of our workforce. If the needs arise, the Government can use many pay tools -- such as recruitment bonuses, retention allowances, and special salary rates -- to maintain the high-quality workforce that serves our Nation so very well. Sincerely, WILLIAM J. CLINTON # # # Locality-Based Comparability Payments Under Alternative Plan Comparability Payment Pay Locality (1) Effective January 2001 Atlanta MSA 8.66% Boston CMSA 12.13% Chicago CMSA 13.00% Cincinnati CMSA 10.76% Cleveland CMSA 9.17% Columbus MSA 9.61% Dallas CMSA 9.71% Dayton MSA 8.60% Denver CMSA 11.90% Detroit CMSA 13.14% Hartford MSA 12.65% Houston CMSA 16.66% Huntsville MSA 8.12% Indianapolis MSA 7.89% Kansas City MSA 8.32% Los Angeles CMSA 14.37% Miami CMSA 11.09% Milwaukee CMSA 8.91% Minneapolis MSA 10.30% New York CMSA 13.62% Orlando MSA 7.71% Philadelphia CMSA 10.80% Pittsburgh MSA 8.54% Portland CMSA 10.32% Richmond MSA 8.60% Sacramento CMSA 10.73% St. Louis MSA 8.00% San Diego MSA 11.31% San Francisco CMSA 16.98% Seattle CMSA 10.45% Washington CMSA 10.23% Rest of United States 7.68% From frissell at panix.com Fri Dec 1 11:19:35 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 14:19:35 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Real howler from Wired News: Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann 2:00 a.m. Dec. 1, 2000 PST BERLIN -- News this week that a Munich state prosecutor was investigating allegations that Yahoo Deutschland had sold copies of Mein Kampf could help build momentum in Germany for more sweeping restrictions on such material.... http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40430,00.html Attention Germans. It is trivially easy to buy a book that your keepers don't want you to buy. Click here to search the best used book met search engine to find copies of Mein Kampf: http://used.addall.com/SuperRare/submitRare.cgi?order=TITLE&ordering=ASC&author=&title=Mein+Kampf&keyword=&submit=Find+the+Book&isbn=&match=Y&dispCurr=USD&binding=Any+Binding&min=&max=&StoreAbebooks=on&StoreAlibris=on&StoreAntiqbook=on&StoreBibliofind=on&StoreBiblion=on&StoreBookCloseOuts=on&StoreBookAvenue=on&StoreGutenberg=on&StoreHalf=on&StoreJustBooks=on&StorePowells=on You will currently find some 330 copies (minus dupes) for sale at various used book stores in the US. You are guaranteed to find one willing to ship you a copy. DCF Johnny had four truckloads of plutonium. Johnny used four truckloads of plutonium to light New York City for a year. Then how many truckloads of plutonium did Johnny have? Six! -- Breeder reactor ad from the glory days of nuclear power at the Edison Electric Institute. 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Please contact your local System Administrator. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 1 14:11:48 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:11:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: BOUNCE hell@einstein.ssz.com: Non-member submission from ["Gregory G. Foster" ] (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:37:11 -0600 From: owner-hell at ssz.com To: owner-hell at einstein.ssz.com Subject: BOUNCE hell at einstein.ssz.com: Non-member submission from ["Gregory G. Foster" ] >From owner-hell at ssz.com Fri Dec 1 12:37:06 2000 Received: from www.navigo.com ([216.30.16.18]) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00956 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:37:05 -0600 Received: from navigo.com (cs2748-191.austin.rr.com [24.27.48.191]) by www.navigo.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA17301; Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:28:21 -0600 Message-ID: <3A27F1C7.3CFB3B7B at navigo.com> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 12:45:27 -0600 From: "Gregory G. Foster" Organization: Navigo X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Farmers, Navigo" , The Club Inferno , "Russell, Debbie" , "Davis, Christopher" , "Horton, Jeff" , "Goertz, Ryan" , "Clancy-Goertz, Donna" , "Lofgren, Chris" , "Hunter, Basel" , "O'Hare, Sheilagh" Subject: Follow up on N30 protests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the outside observer, the celebration of the anniversary of the Seattle WTO protests seemed to transpire in relative peace during the day; but the concluding note of the evening seemed pretty sad to me. The Seattle police department seems to have created a situation in which the only possible outcome was mass arrests and a spiritually crushing exposition of state force. <<<<< Kristoff Loftgreen wrote: >>>>> im not sure how much news makes it out of here but things did get a little crazy after the sun went down last night, which in these parts is around 4:20. the police forced all the protesters out of westlake center around eight or so south west into belltown. they then started using their storm trooper tactics of intimidation wearing full riot gear and stomp marching down the street. they completely surrounded all of the protestors and then closed in on them, arrested most of them. the was some resistence. then theyre was a pretty violent beating of a man up on capital hill. dont know if this video made it out of this market. pretty disgusting. king5.com is the local NBC affiliate and has quite a bit of good coverage on last nights happenings. <<<<< >>>>> Police defend use of force against protesters - good video here http://www.king5.com/detailtopstory.html?StoryID=9631 CNN coverage - fun to deconstruct. Always the first thing mentioned in major media coverage: "A police captain suffered an eye injury when he was hit by an object thrown by someone in the crowd..." giving them justification to use force, correct? And their video caption "Watch the protest" - much safer than participating... http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/12/01/wto.anniversary.demo.02/index.html CNN has the most damning video footage I have yet encountered. This must be seen to be believed. It is an excellent 3 minute video showing the leaders of the evening protesters desperately attempting to _negotiate_ a way out of their entrapment by police. They attempt first with the cops on the east street, the most direct route to the safe harbor of the labor temple. These cops say they should go talk to the north cops. So, they go attempt to negotiate with the cops on the northern street - who are more amenable, but worry about letting the protesters out who then might "change their minds" about going to the labor temple; the cops want everyone to go home. No promises are made, but this cop is quite civil and wants to work out a solution, aware of his "dilemma." So, the protest leaders return to the now quite nervous protesters, and attempt to relay the situation. The stomping of boots from the southern or western corridor is heard and the protest leader at the end utters "I know they're behind us, right..." into the megaphone. And the arrests begin. We lack the prior context here about what happened to supposedly justify the cops marching the protesters into a trap. What were these 200 protesters doing before this time? Was the protest degenerating or was it still peaceful? Were the cops just fed up and wanting to go home? This context seems to be absent from the record. Labor organizers were offered quick release from jail by Seattle Mayor Schell early this morning. "...they refused and stayed in solidarity with the others who were arrested." http://seattle.indymedia.org/ from last year: "This is what a police state looks like." http://seattle.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=1585 g :~=~_~=/-\=~_~=~:~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~:~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~: : Gregory G. Foster gregf at navigo.com : a Navigo Farmer "we breathe in the hopes of speaking the spirit : we move in the hopes of meeting the soul" :~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~:~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~:~=~_~=\-/=~_~=~: From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 1 16:21:38 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:21:38 -0800 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001201172134.01b72350@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001201172134.01b72350@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 5:21 PM -0500 12/1/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/supreme-court-bush-gore-arguments.html I noticed the guy down on his knees...was he expecting the Republicans to give him a bullet to the base of the neck? Frankly, I think much of Al Gore's desperation comes from his realization that if he loses, he'll face prosecution for his treason vis-a-vis the Chinese. And, as someone pointed out to me recently, if Al Gore has no power, the Chinese won't need him around. In fact, he becomes a positive liability for them, in terms of testimony, plea bargains, memoirs, careless comments. They may choose to retire him with extreme prejudice. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From boards-register at yahoo-inc.com Fri Dec 1 16:25:54 2000 From: boards-register at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:25:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Registration confirmation - Yahoo! Message Boards Message-ID: <200012020025.QAA79583@e5.my.yahoo.com> Welcome to Yahoo! DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. SEE BELOW FOR INSTRUCTIONS IF YOU DIDN'T REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT. This message confirms your new account with Yahoo!. Your Yahoo! ID is: nomenisco Your email address: cypherpunks at toad.com We will use this address to contact you if you ever forget your Yahoo! ID or password. To learn how to change this address, read below. ********************************************************** WHAT CAN I DO WITH THIS ACCOUNT? You can use your Yahoo! ID and password for ALL of Yahoo's free, personalized services. My Yahoo - http://my.yahoo.com Yahoo Calendar - http://calendar.yahoo.com Yahoo Chat - http://chat.yahoo.com Yahoo Classifieds - http://classifieds.yahoo.com Yahoo Clubs - http://clubs.yahoo.com Yahoo Finance - http://quote.yahoo.com Yahoo Games - http://play.yahoo.com Yahoo GeoCities - http://geocities.yahoo.com Yahoo Mail - http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo Message Boards - http://messages.yahoo.com Yahoo Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.com Yahoo Travel - http://travel.yahoo.com To see a full list go to http://docs.yahoo.com/docs/family/more.html You can return to Yahoo! 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Help Central at: http://help.yahoo.com/ ********************************************************** IF YOU DID NOT REQUEST THIS ACCOUNT, or no longer wish to use it, we encourage you to REMOVE it by visiting the following address: http://edit.yahoo.com/config/remove_user?k=IXtKeXh6Ynl%2bdGR4OI4heUo2ZHx9enR7MjIxM3tjIXVKTjAyMDYxMDIzIXNKemU%3d If you are prompted for the deletion key when using the URL above, please use the following deletion key: IXtKeXh6Ynl+dGR4OI4heUo2ZHx9enR7MjIxM3tjIXVKTjAyMDYxMDIzIXNKemU= Or, if you do not have internet access, please reply to this email (and make sure to copy this entire email in your reply) with REMOVE as the subject line. [63.161.101.132] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6693 bytes Desc: not available URL: From my-login-request at yahoo-inc.com Fri Dec 1 16:26:13 2000 From: my-login-request at yahoo-inc.com (Yahoo! Member Services) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 16:26:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Yahoo! Email Verification Message-ID: <200012020026.QAA22047@e16.yahoo.com> Hi, nomenisco You recently were asked to verify your email address(es) with Yahoo!. You will receive one email per unverified address. Please follow the instructions below to complete the verification process. If you did not request this message, or believe you have received it in error, please skip to the instructions at the end of this mail. TO VERIFY THIS ADDRESS (cypherpunks at toad.com): 1. If your email reader will allow you to click on links, click the following link. If not enter the url into your browser: http://verify.yahoo.com/v/recv?X61bf 2. When the page appears in your browser, check if that the Confirmation Code box matches the one below, if it does not, change it accordingly: *************CONFIRMATION CODE**************** X61bf *************CONFIRMATION CODE**************** 3. Next enter your Yahoo! Password in the space provided. 4. Then on that page, click the "Verify My Account" button. IS THIS NOT YOUR ACCOUNT? If you did not request this verification, you can click the link below to remove this email address from this account. http://verify.yahoo.com/v/remove?.k=X61bf&.lid=HQzg8RujRKgT8UY4 Regards, Yahoo! Support Team From sunder at sunder.net Fri Dec 1 13:41:30 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 16:41:30 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... References: Message-ID: <3A281B0A.344A22C6@sunder.net> Jim Choate wrote: > > The list, by consensus of the operators, has a 1M file size limit. If you > can't handle it don't ask others to discard inches... Jim, quit being an ass. Just because there is a limit doesn't mean you should strive to reach it. > Oh, and to actually return to Sunders original point of copyright. Editing > the copyrighted file actually shows intent. No, it's called fair use. And no, you don't EDIT it, you quote one paragraph or two out of the entire story, and you post the url so those who are interested can go off and read it. Sending the whole entire thing isn't fair use. > At least my excuse is the god > damned software is intentionaly designed to force the behaviour. Poor excuse. You aren't at the mercy of your software. Learn to use your mouse. Learn to use the edit menu. Drag your mouse over the first paragraph, right click, select copy. Hit Control-M in Netscape since that's what you're claiming to be using, click in the body, right click, select paste. Congratulations you've just quoted a paragraph. Now, hit Alt-Tab to go back to the browser window, click on the url and highlight it by dragging or double clicking it. Right click, select copy, or hit Control-C. Now Alt-Tab back to your message, click somewhere where you want to paste the url, right click and select paste. Why is that so hard? > You are of course always welcome to keep whinning. Empower the individual! See above. Consider yourself empowered. > The behaviour of the leading proponents of crypto-anarchy when faced with > 'non-compliant' behaviour is clear evidence of why the philosophy doesn't > work. Cypherpunks is a mailing list composed of servers and users. Just as it would be off topic to talk about carpet cleaning solutions or your favorite brand of toilet paper because you'd piss off those with whom you wish to share, it's not useful to most of us for you to post big huge chunks of HTML blobs and force us to drag cookies and images in from the web site they came in from. The reason I even bother to tell you this is because I usually find the articles you post intesteresting, but it would be more useful if they weren't such huge hogs. But hey, at some point, you weigh the benefit versus the trouble of dealing with huge messages and the balance tips over. At that point, you go into the killfile. Nothing personal, but if you waste my time and bandwidth for something marginally interesting, I'll decide to not waste my time any longer. That others agree or not is up to them. It's not a demand. It's not a mandate. It's a request. Analogy: Say were in a hunting club that decides to share the bounty: Say, I go off and shoot wild boars, and leave you a leg once in a while, some ribs to someone else, a leg to another, etc. On the other hand, you went out in the woods and shot some deer and dropped several carcases, bleeding and still not gutted, some still alive and pain, off on my doorstep, I might be quite happy to enjoy some vennison. But if you did it every day, I'd find too much vennison a pest rather than a boon. Now, I go and ask you, "Thanks much for the favor, I appreciate it, but it's too much, could you just leave me no more than a leg once a month?" [Or an even better analogy, rather than bringing me carcases, tell me where you've picked them off, so if I need more meat or trophies, I can hunt them down myself.] If you go off spewing about dictatorships and holier than thou, I have no choice but to think that you're a loon and ask you to no longer bring me any vennison and I no longer provide you with bacon. If it still shows up on my property bleeding and messy and more than I need, then I lock my gate to you. In a free society you're free to do whatever you like. That includes pissing people off for sure. But that includes the ability to complain to others whose behaviour is somewhat beneficial, but in being excessive becomes detrimental. It includes the ability to ask those who piss you off to cease doing so. Sure, it's up to them to do so or not. But in free society, no one should be forced to live with abusive behaviors from others either. [Hint: the difference between this and socialism is that in socialism, you're not only forced to live with the bores, but you're forced to buy them a free drink, meal and housing every so often.] You should be free to ask others who share a resource to do so in a way that makes the majority of its members happy. No, this isn't about democracy, it's about common courtesy. And when they say, "I don't know how to do that" you can of course show them how, but what would YOU do when they refuse and insist on continuing? -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From honig at sprynet.com Fri Dec 1 14:14:21 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:14:21 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001201141355.00820100@pop.sprynet.com> At 02:21 PM 12/1/00 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: > >Attention Germans. It is trivially easy to buy a book that your keepers >don't want you to buy. Even easier. You can find the text online at http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/ Don't tell the Germans. From honig at sprynet.com Fri Dec 1 14:14:21 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:14:21 -0500 Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001201140731.00818690@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:58 AM 12/1/00 -0500, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >Yes, different. alt.anonymous.messages is simply a message mix. >I'm talking about a system that would provide lots of encrypted >traffic *ON THE SAME PORTS* as whatever other encrypted traffic >you were sending. IOW, no one should be able to look at logs and >say, "well, we can ignore that packet, it's NNTP. This other >packet over here is mail, and probably the thing we're after..." Do you really think all those pictures flying about on pictures-binary newsgroups are really of what they seem to be? :-) Look beneath the flab. Steganography. Crypto implications of cheap scanners, and a year or so later, affordable digital cameras. Even some hidden cargo compartments in MP3. From declan at well.com Fri Dec 1 14:21:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 17:21:43 -0500 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001201172134.01b72350@mail.well.com> http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/supreme-court-bush-gore-arguments.html From publicidad at worldspain.com Fri Dec 1 14:25:57 2000 From: publicidad at worldspain.com (publicidad at worldspain.com) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 17:25:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Spanish'stamps 10% OFF Message-ID: <200012012225.RAA15508@mail.virtual-estates.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3847 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Fri Dec 1 15:32:34 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:32:34 -0500 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today References: <4.3.0.20001201172134.01b72350@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3A28358E.CDCCDDF8@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Nice shots, Declan. The first two look positively surreal, especially the cops. 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No one is better qualified to help you than Rob.) Please respond to this letter with the subject line "Latin Goddess" and Let's get started making all your dreams come true. My Warmest Regards Be Blessed Luz Sanchez What are you waiting for? Act Now before someone else meets The Girl of Your Dreams before you! You are receiving this message because you have either subscribed to one of my ffa-pages, newsletters or we have corresponded in the past. I respect your privacy. If you do not wish to receive any further messages or updates, please respond to this e-mail with the subject line "remove" and we will immediately remove your e-mail address from our database. Thank you. From George at Orwellian.Org Fri Dec 1 17:16:36 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:16:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today Message-ID: <200012020116.UAA09709@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Alright, Declan using his Nikon Coolpix 950! Screw that analog stuff. Got 340Mb? At 5:21 PM -0500 12/1/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: # http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/supreme-court-bush-gore-arguments.html The Reverend Al Sharpton, working off more weight. Hey, they get to use bullhorns in DC? We can't even use a stick to hold up a sign here in NYC! Our resident racist prosecutor & fantasy killer Tim May wrote: # # I noticed the guy down on his knees...was he expecting the # Republicans to give him a bullet to the base of the neck? Huh? What is going on in what's left of your brain? Our resident racist prosecutor & fantasy killer Tim May wrote: # # Frankly, I think much of Al Gore's desperation comes from his # realization that if he loses, he'll face prosecution for his # treason vis-a-vis the Chinese. And, as someone pointed out to # me recently, if Al Gore has no power, the Chinese won't need # him around. In fact, he becomes a positive liability for them, # in terms of testimony, plea bargains, memoirs, careless comments. # They may choose to retire him with extreme prejudice. Gore wants to be president so he won't be killed? World-class lame lamentations. From petro at bounty.org Fri Dec 1 20:31:13 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 20:31:13 -0800 Subject: Carnivore Probe Mollifies Some In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001128142838.0080adc0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3b14d4561626c38c96b65593c0236992@noisebox.remailer.org> <3.0.6.32.20001128142838.0080adc0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: >At 06:54 AM 11/28/00 -0500, Ken Brown wrote: >>Of course if they leave the machine [Carnivore] in the cage you can always >stop >>feeding it electricity. Or take it home to show the neighbours. It might >>make a good conversation piece at dinner. Or maybe use it as an ashtray. > >>At 10:36 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >>CALEA has some onerous language in it, but it doesn't trump the >>Fourth Amendment. > > >You could try the Carnivore box against an implemention of your Second >Amendment rights. Unless the chassis were hardened you'd win. I seriously doubt they make NT boxes that are hardened against a .50 BMG. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From commerce at home.com Fri Dec 1 19:23:11 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:23:11 -0500 Subject: Pigs Blind Woman, Then Arrest Her for "Interfering" References: <3A281D0C.B2FCE63A@lsil.com> Message-ID: <019001c05c0f$33a99330$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: > we get a Republican-controlled government and the resulting Republican > Supreme Court appointees. Just look at the dissenters in the recent > Indianapolis Drug Search decision. The Republicans seem to be more > authoritarian than the Democrats though overall they both stink like they all suck, but the republicans seem to suck less overall. in example, look at thomas' dissent in that case; stare decisis drove him there, but he was open to tossing the whole POS framework for other legal roadside searches. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 1 19:41:56 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 22:41:56 -0500 Subject: Yahoo Ruling: "Don't Roll Your Eyes..." Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From unsubs-NEWSLETTER113000-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.myspace.com Fri Dec 1 23:37:01 2000 From: unsubs-NEWSLETTER113000-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.myspace.com (Myspace.com) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 23:37:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free Skins and Downloads from myspace! Message-ID: <200012020737.XAA19549@toad.com> Dear Myspace user, Welcome back, loyal myspace users. We have good news for you PLUS great product offers in this newsletter. Read on to find out more. Featured Sponsor- Get 3 Books for $1.99 each and get one FREE! http://scbc.booksonline.com/cgi-bin/ndCGI.exe/Develop/pagHome?clubId=SCB&promo=303_01_az_224_876_1191 In this issue: 1. Have you registered your name? http://www.register.com/index.cgi?SOURCE=myspace-nov 2. Improve your Web Browser.... FREE! http://www.neoplanet.com/splash/522splash/_myspace.html 3. Win a Porsche Boxster 4. Find Holiday Gifts at Myspace 5. Participate in an Auction and Support a Worthy Cause ******************Myspace Featured Sponsor****************** Get 3 books for $1.99 each and get one FREE with membership to Computer Books Direct, your source for the most comprehensive books on the topics you want-at the best value! Choose from great book titles such as: The Digital Photography Bible, Sams Teach Yourself e-Music Today, Real World Scanning with Halftones, & Non-Designer's Scan and Print Book. http://scbc.booksonline.com/cgi-bin/ndCGI.exe/Develop/pagHome?clubId=SCB&promo=303_01_az_224_876_1191 ************************************************************ 1. Have you registered your name? They're going quick! Go to Register.com today and register your domain name before someone else does. Register.com, the first step on the web. http://www.register.com/index.cgi?SOURCE=myspace-nov _______________________________________________________________ 2. FREE Browser Skins! The NeoPlanet Browser is Your Fast, Free, and Easy way to Surf. Get it Now! Take control of your Internet experience! The NeoPlanet Browser combines the most essential Internet tools and services into one easy-to-use, free application. Over 500 FREE skins to choose from! 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You can then purchase all the top selling games, or select from a wide range of other products offered directly from the myspace site. __________________________________________________________ 5. Participate in an auction and support a worthy cause Myspace has proudly partnered with the Full Circle Fund to sponsor the upcoming Wild Card Wednesday networking event in San Francisco. The Full Circle Fund is an alliance of Silicon Valley leaders committed to extending the benefits of the Information Age. They examine Bay Area social and economic challenges and invest in innovative organizations that addresses those challenges. To support its operations and grant making, the Full Circle Fund will auction off some great items including: a private plane to the destination of your choice and a day of extreme skiing with Jonny Moseley. To find out more go to: http://www.fullcirclefund.org/events.html This email was sent to: cypherpunks at toad.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, reply to this email with the word UNSUBSCRIBE as the FIRST word in your reply. *** Please allow 3 to 5 business days for your unsubscribe request to take effect. *** Or mailto:unsubs-NEWSLETTER113000-cypherpunks.-toad.com at u.myspace.com with the word UNSUBSCRIBE as the FIRST word in your reply. --------------------------------------------------------------------- From Somebody Sat Dec 2 00:03:37 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:03:37 -0000 Subject: FW: Recent Publication Message-ID: Bob, The url below is wrong: try http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/fsr/ops.pdf instead. > -----Original Message----- > From: Somebody at The Bank of England > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 6:33 PM > To: Somebody > Subject: Recent Publication > > > You may be aware that we published a paper entitled 'Oversight of > Payment Systems' this week. It sets out our objectives for > payment system oversight and describes our role in practice. > The paper is available be on the Bank's website at > www.bankofengland.co.uk/fsr/payment. > > Please let me know if you would like a printed copy. > > Regards > > --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 2 08:23:48 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:23:48 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 4:43 PM +0100 12/2/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >Duncan Frissell wrote: >> Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann > >actually, contrary to almost all other cases of censorship (not that I >say this isn't) the german state of bavaria owns the COPYRIGHT of "mein >kampf", and as such actually has some kind of standing in most of the >cases. yeah, it's still censorship, but at least they were bright enough >to do it in an intelligent way. in essence, only copies printed before >1945 are actually legal, because the copyright owner (bavaria) has not >authorized any later printings. This is misleading. There is much debate about ownership of the copyright, whether it has expired (as would normally be the case after roughly 70 years, whether the licenses sold to other publishers are valid, etc.). And it has been published by several publishing houses, which makes the Yahoo case apropos. For example: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/webedit/001014kampf.htm On the trail of the Mein Kampf royalties More from the government vaults By David Whitman ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Oct. 20, 2000, Houghton Mifflin informed U.S.News & World Report that it would donate all royalties from the sales of Mein Kampf that the firm has received since 1979 to an as-yet-unspecified charity. Since 1979, Houghton Mifflin has collected about $400,000 in royalties alone from the sale of Mein Kampf. The publishing house will also donate future royalties from Mein Kampf to charity. ... --end of excerpt-- There are many more such reports about royalties, copyright. Quite odd that the publisher Houghton Mifflin would say they are donating all royalties since 1979 if in fact no copies have been published since 1945! Even more odd if some of us have copies in our libraries which were published much more recently than 1945. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 2 06:09:58 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:09:58 -0500 Subject: Bank of England White Paper on Payment Systems Oversight Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Sat Dec 2 03:13:01 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 12:13:01 +0100 Subject: FW: Pretty scary... Message-ID: <99fd5c1319f83eaaa12bc625b52d9e17@remailer.privacy.at> [: hacktivism :] > Pretty scary... > Imagine ... > > 1. Imagine an election in a third-world country in which the > self-declared winner was the > son of the former prime minister - and > imagine that the former prime minister was himself the former head > of that nation's > secret police. > > 2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote, but > won based on some old > colonial holdover from the nation's pre-democracy past. > > 3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's "victory" turned on > disputed votes cast in a > province governed by his brother. > > 4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district - a > district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent - led > thousands of voters > to vote for the wrong candidate. > > 5. Imagine that that members of that nation's most despised caste of > former slaves, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in > record numbers to vote in > near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner's candidacy. > > 6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were > intercepted on their way to the polls by state police, operating under > the authority of the > self-declared winner's brother. > > 7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province, > and that the > self-declared winner's "lead" was only 327 votes-fewer, > certainly, than the vote-counting machines' margin of error. > > 8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party > opposed a more careful, by-hand inspection and re-counting of the > ballots in the disputed > province, or in its most hotly disputed district. > > 9. Imagine that the self-declared winner was himself a governor of a > major province, and that his province had the worst human-rights > record of any province in > his nation, and actually led the nation in executions. > > 10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared > winner was to appoint > like-minded human-rights violators to lifetime positions on the high > court of that nation. > From 56789ua at terra.es Sat Dec 2 03:28:28 2000 From: 56789ua at terra.es (Lorenzo Urbistondo Arteche) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 12:28:28 +0100 Subject: FOTOS PORN Message-ID: <000801c05c53$0ba24a00$2625fea9@z9s3v9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From baptista at pccf.net Sat Dec 2 10:39:53 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 13:39:53 -0500 Subject: Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001202133953.00ab0c00@199.166.24.1> Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs (Politics 2:00 a.m. PST) http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40449,00.html?tw=wn20001202 Palestinian supporters have created a site from where they distribute tools and viruses to fellow believers in the fight against Israel. Visitors are greeted with a message: 'I swear that I will not use these programs on anyone but Jews and Israelis.' By Carmen Gentile. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -- Joe Baptista www.dot.god From frissell at panix.com Sat Dec 2 10:57:42 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:57:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: Actually, the *US* copyright was siezed by the US government at the beginning of the war and not returned to Germany until the last decade or so. So there are plenty of US copies that would remain legal. DCF From webri at ig.com.br Sat Dec 2 15:01:15 2000 From: webri at ig.com.br (Werner) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 15:01:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Adv.: GET RICH WORKING WITH YOUR COMPUTER -UOUG Message-ID: <200012022301.PAA18296@cyberpass.net> READY TO EARN $ 100,000+/YR AND MORE CASH !!?? --------------------------------------------------------- With this perfect Business parttime worker earn already about $ 5,000+/month. It is your possibility of having a very lucrative business at home. You find your customers only using the resources of Internet. E-mail is without question the most powerfull method of distributing information on earth. All your customers pay you in CASH without ever talking to them. Fulltime workers earn $ 10,000 in one month and much more !! Let me help you like others helped me to get "wealthy" in my pocket. It's a real opportunity and it runs !! For important additional informations send an (blanc) e-mail to www.bmoveis at terra.com.br Thank you for your attention !! --------------------------------------------- This message is a 'one-time' mailing. Once you have recieved this message you will no longer receive future messages from me. For this reason there is no need to 'unsubscribe'. If this message does not interest you, please pardon my intrusion. ---------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Sat Dec 2 12:35:17 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 15:35:17 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:54 AM 12/2/00 -0500, Tom Vogt wrote: >Duncan Frissell wrote: >> Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann > >actually, contrary to almost all other cases of censorship (not that I >say this isn't) the german state of bavaria owns the COPYRIGHT of "mein >kampf", Hitler's estate would be the natural heir (under US law :-), although I can believe that .de would seize it too, if he had no heir, or if they didn't like him. The notion of Germany suing hitler.org for copyright infringement of M.K. certainly whets the surrealist's appetite... Some Quebecois should translate it to french and get a Yahoo link :-) From andromeda125 at excite.com Sat Dec 2 15:46:27 2000 From: andromeda125 at excite.com (andromeda125 at excite.com) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 15:46:27 Subject: Interesting Bio Oppurtunity Message-ID: <624.587549.579964@excite.com> Nov 17, 2000 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Investors Spotlight by Looknofurther * * * * * * * * * * * * Bioenvision.co.uk (BIOV.OB) BIOENVISION READIES LEAD PRODUCT LAUNCH Reports Substantive Progress On Four Platform Technologies BIOENVISION INC. - OTCBB Symbol: BIOV.OB In a recent press release President & CEO Chris Wood commented, "The global anti-cancer therapy market, presently valued at approximately $16 billion, is poised for considerable further growth. We believe this market will double in the next 4 years. This expansion will be driven by innovative new therapies which should dramatically improve control over the disease. During the past fiscal year, we made substantive progress developing our four platform technologies. We intend marketing our breast cancer drug, Modrefen, in 2001. This product will compete in the market-place with drugs such as Genentech's (NYSE:DNA - news) Herceptin but it's novel mode of action puts it in a specific therapeutic niche. Extensive clinical trials showed that Modrefen is effective in up to 55% of patients with breast cancer who relapse after hormone therapy with drugs such as Astra Zeneca's (NYSE:AZN - news) Tamoxifen." Dr. Wood continued, "During the next 12 months we intend to find a co-development partner for our anti-leukemia agent, Clofarabine. This drug is in Phase II clinical trials and early results are encouraging. This product will compete with Fludarabine, which is marketed in the USA by Berlex, a subsidiary of Schering AG (717200D) and Pentotatin which is marketed by Supergen (NASDAQ:SUPG - news). We continue to make substantive progress on our Gene Therapy platform. In the past year the team added a second gene to the vector and conducted successful pre-clinical trials. The results have confirmed the ability of the vector to transfer DNA to skeletal muscle and for release of gene product into the blood stream. In an earlier clinical trial, with the albumin gene attached to the vector, patients with low serum albumin levels due to end-stage liver disease, had serum levels returned to the normal range after treatment. We believe that these agents have considerable commercial possibilities." Company Overview Bioenvision is a development-stage, biopharmaceutical company primarily engaged in the development of products and technologies for the treatment of cancer. Bioenvision has acquired development, manufacturing and marketing rights to four technologies from which a range of products have been derived and from which additional products may be developed in the future. Bioenvision aims to continue developing its existing platform technologies, acquire additional technologies and products with multiple uses, and commercialize products for the multi-billion dollar cancer treatment market. Bioenvision expects to begin marketing Trilostane for the treatment of post-menopausal breast cancer on a commercial scale in the United States and Europe in the second quarter of 2001. The product is already FDA-approved in the United States for another use. Bioenvision plans to apply to use the drug in the United States for treatment of hormone sensitive cancers, such as breast cancer and advanced prostrate cancer. In addition, three of the other products and technologies to which Bioenvision has acquired rights are presently being tested in clinical trials, and an additional eight are in the pre-clinical stage of development. Assuming the successful completion of clinical trials, Bioenvision anticipates that by the end of 2002, five of Bioenvision's products and technologies will have received regulatory approval for specific disease (primarily cancer) treatment indications in the United States or Europe and seven will be in the final stages of the clinical trial process. Bioenvision has had discussions with potential development partners over the past year and plan to continue to explore the possibilities for co-development and sub-licensing. Bioenvision expects to enter into a co-development agreement for at least one of our products within the next few months although there can be no assurances that any such agreement will be reached. Bioenvision is also working on a fourth group of compounds that act as cytostatic agents by stopping the growth of cancer cells. There are at least three potential products in this category, one of which is set for a Phase I clinical trial in the coming year. These compounds are at an early stage of development but the Company expects these agents to fill the product pipeline for the future. In March 2000, Bioenvision recieved an equity investment of $2 million from Bioaccelerate BVI, a Swiss-based investment company which enabled the Company to move ahead in its business plan during 2000. Bioaccelerate has an option to invest an additional $4 million in the Company and that investment relates to certain milestones in the coming 12 months. Product Portfolio The following is a description of Bioenvision's current portfolio of technologies, products and products in development. Product / Disease intended / Current stage /Anticipated Time to be treated of Development Until Marketed Cancer Treatment --------------------------------------------------------------------- Modrefen / Breast cancer / At market / - - - Abetafen / Prostate cancer / Phase II trials / 2 years Clofarabine / Leukemia, Lymphoma / Phase II trials / 18 months Clofarabine / Solid tumors / Phase I trials / 2 years Cytostatics / Bladder cancer / Phase I trials / 3 years RA inhibitor / Leukemia / Pre-clinical / 4 years Hormone blocker / Prostate cancer / Pre-clinical / 4 years Gene Therapy -------------------------------------------------------------------- Product 1 / Leukemia / Phase I, II / 3 years Product 2 / Cancer support / Phase I, II / 3 years Non-Cancer Applications -------------------------------------------------------------------- Trilostane / Cushing's disease / At market / - - - Trilostane / Alzheimer's disease / Pre-clinical / 2 years Clofarabine / Transplantation / Phase I trials / 3 years Gene Therapy / Vaccines, Cirrhosis, Diabetes, MS / R & D / 5 years HISTORY The Company was founded by Chris Wood and financed by Kevin Leech, who were responsible for the first two public biotech companies in Europe in 1987, being Medeva plc and ML Laboratories plc respectively. STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIPS London School of Pharmacy University of Cardiff National Institute of Cancer, Bari, Italy University College, London MD Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, Texas Southern Research Institute, Alabama Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Institute, New York Imperial College, London STRATEGY Bioenvision's strategy is to license and acquire products ready for clinical trials or at a late stage of development, and to use the expertise of Bioenvision's management to take the products through clinical trials and to commercially position the products for today's marketplace. Bioenvision will establish an oncology sales force for the North American market while establishing a joint venture sales force in Europe. This will give Bioenvision the ability to distribute products from Bioenvision's own pipeline as well as products from other biotech companies looking for a dedicated oncology distribution chain. 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You are currently subscribed to Looknofurther, to unsubscribe send a blank email to: cassie380 at excite.com From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 2 13:12:08 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 16:12:08 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: At 3:35 PM -0500 12/2/00, David Honig wrote: >At 10:54 AM 12/2/00 -0500, Tom Vogt wrote: >>Duncan Frissell wrote: >>> Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann >> >>actually, contrary to almost all other cases of censorship (not that I >>say this isn't) the german state of bavaria owns the COPYRIGHT of "mein >>kampf", > >Hitler's estate would be the natural heir (under US law :-), although I can >believe that .de would seize it too, if he had no heir, or if they >didn't like him. > >The notion of Germany suing hitler.org for copyright infringement of M.K. >certainly whets the surrealist's appetite... > >Some Quebecois should translate it to french and get a Yahoo link :-) Though I understand you are joking, the obvious point is that "Mein Kampf" was translated into French many years ago...sometime between 1940 and 1945, one would expect, if not earlier. I did a quick Google search to see if the French translation is online anywhere. I couldn't find any obvious links. Much discussion of the Yahoo and Amazon issues, though. The Thought Police are coming! --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tom at ricardo.de Sat Dec 2 07:43:48 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 16:43:48 +0100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Duncan Frissell wrote: > Germany's Kampf Furor Renews by Steve Kettmann actually, contrary to almost all other cases of censorship (not that I say this isn't) the german state of bavaria owns the COPYRIGHT of "mein kampf", and as such actually has some kind of standing in most of the cases. yeah, it's still censorship, but at least they were bright enough to do it in an intelligent way. in essence, only copies printed before 1945 are actually legal, because the copyright owner (bavaria) has not authorized any later printings. From kurk0 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:50:01 2000 From: kurk0 at yahoo.com (roberto) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 16:50:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: please unsuscribe of you are list Message-ID: <20001203005001.53029.qmail@web218.mail.yahoo.com> no spam me.... --- noybw wrote: > hi, I am researching the subject for a book, am > unable to find much except > for yr interupted bits on the web. Pse forward to me > any info you may have > esp relating to the associated murders in South > Africa.if you have > browseable web addresses that may be of interest pse > advise. Thanx Cheers > Rae > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 2 14:51:22 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:51:22 -0500 Subject: The election debacle. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001202140641.01afae78@shell11.ba.best.com> -- The election outcome is great. With a bit of luck, we should see the supremes do a party line 5/4 vote on a partisan issue, further destroying what little credibility they have left. With a bit more luck we should see two slates of electors, one proclaimed by the courts, and one by the legislature and executive. Bush's case against the Florida supremes was great: His team shot them down root and branch, claiming that everything they did and said was beyond their jurisdiction, as of course it was, but if one of them had been caught scratching his bum, I am sure Bush would have argued that the offending judge lacked jurisdiction to find his own bum also. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG WbV66f5Xmh8YI+XWY9eJshlRVy0Lc8wPGvz4AMmZ 4ZejlQ7TMtBHNHjcv1nTObc+asCmBt4ydmTx/gpec From mctaylor at privacy.nb.ca Sat Dec 2 16:13:07 2000 From: mctaylor at privacy.nb.ca (M Taylor) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 20:13:07 -0400 (AST) Subject: CanCrypt: Canadian cryptographic resources Message-ID: I have been updating CanCrypt, a directory of Canadian cryptographic resources. It is intended to be a clearing house of Canadian related cryptographic resources. Although the relaxing of US export regulations has reduced some of its importance, Canada still has a more liberal cryptographic policy for export and usage. Compared to both the USA (re: export) and UK (re: RIP) it is very crypto-friendly. http://www.privacy.nb.ca/cancrypt/ If you have additions, please me know. -- M Taylor mctaylor@ / privacy.nb.ca From fogstorm at mac.com Sat Dec 2 20:24:38 2000 From: fogstorm at mac.com (fogstorm) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 20:24:38 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <20001202202438-r01010600-ab028c0f@10.0.1.3> danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au wrote: > > Actually, the *US* copyright was siezed by the US government at the > > beginning of the war and not returned to Germany until the last decade or > > so. So there are plenty of US copies that would remain legal. > > In Australia at least, I think Mein Kampf is now out of copyright (it's > still 50 years from death of author here). > > Danny. So if an Australian puts it on his web site can the German government sue for copyright infringement? Can they prosecute for violation of their anti Nazi laws? If a German citizen views it in Amsterdam can his government prosecute when he returns home? From raewrite at mweb.co.za Sat Dec 2 11:41:14 2000 From: raewrite at mweb.co.za (noybw) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 21:41:14 +0200 Subject: red mercury Message-ID: <0G4Y0044BHIT1I@earthquake.mweb.co.za> hi, I am researching the subject for a book, am unable to find much except for yr interupted bits on the web. Pse forward to me any info you may have esp relating to the associated murders in South Africa.if you have browseable web addresses that may be of interest pse advise. Thanx Cheers Rae From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Sat Dec 2 13:38:49 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 22:38:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today Message-ID: <2e38236777448f59c0a21adfe1922889@mix2.hyperreal.pl> >Frankly, I think much of Al Gores desperation comes from his Tim, --- ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ----! !---- ----! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! -- ! ! ! ! ! / ! ! ! / ! ! !/ / ! / ! / ! / ! / From declan at well.com Sat Dec 2 22:58:00 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 01:58:00 -0500 Subject: Arthur Anderson black-bagged, NIPC now spooking In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 11:16:22AM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001129123906.00818210@pop.sprynet.com> <20001201093725.A13340@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001203022149.A14126@cluebot.com> On Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 11:16:22AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > Stewwwwieeeee!!!! Right! His eyebrows have actually grown considerably longer since this photo (and I didn't think such a thing was possible, given the laws of gravity): http://www.mccullagh.org/image/6/stewart-baker.html -Declan From declan at well.com Sat Dec 2 23:28:34 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 02:28:34 -0500 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today In-Reply-To: <200012020116.UAA09709@www1.aa.psiweb.com>; from George@Orwellian.Org on Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 08:16:36PM -0500 References: <200012020116.UAA09709@www1.aa.psiweb.com> Message-ID: <20001203022834.B14126@cluebot.com> Hey, I shot a roll of B&W 400-speed that I'm having developed now. I've hardly given up on analog -- some shots of Jesse Jackson marching I wouldn't have been able to get without a nice, fast 70-200/2.8 lens and a camera to match. The damnable CoolPix takes seconds to process each shot. I'm getting a review unit of the Canon D-30 digital SLR that can take Canon mount lenses; we'll see how that compares... -Declan On Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 08:16:36PM -0500, George at Orwellian.Org wrote: > Alright, Declan using his Nikon Coolpix 950! Screw that analog stuff. > Got 340Mb? > > At 5:21 PM -0500 12/1/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > # http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/supreme-court-bush-gore-arguments.html From baptista at pccf.net Sun Dec 3 00:02:16 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 03:02:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Human Rights Alert-- Urgent Information needed on West Papua massacre by Indonesian military. Message-ID: >>> ---------- >>> From: "Michael Albert" >>> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:25:39 -0800 >>> To: , >>> Subject: ZNet Commentary / George Monbiot / Massacre Starts Tomorrow / Dec 1 >>> >>> >>> The Massacre Starts Tomorrow >>> And Britain will share the blame for what's about to happen in West Papua >>> By George Monbiot >>> Also Published in the Guardian 30th November 2000 >>> >>> There's an odd component of globalisation, which I find myself at a loss to >>> explain. We are, we're assured, living in a global village, whose people are >>> daily brought closer together. Yet we hear ever less about what is happening >>> in distant parts of the world. There is less foreign news in the papers than >>> there has been for sixty years. Foreign documentaries are almost extinct. >>> Parliamentary debate about overseas issues has all but dried up. In the >>> midst of the communications revolution, we are becoming strangers to each >>> other. >>> >>> So the massacres due to begin tomorrow will take almost everyone by >>> surprise. Indeed, there is hardly a news editor who has even heard of the >>> land in which they are scheduled to take place. >>> >>> West Papua is the western half of the island of New Guinea, which has been >>> occupied since 1963 by Indonesia. Tomorrow, local people expect the >>> Indonesian army to launch a one-sided war, bloodier even than the carnage in >>> East Timor last year. The troops and militias have been armed and trained >>> and are awaiting orders. Only the international community can stop them. >>> But, though Western nations such as Britain are up to their necks in it, >>> they haven't the faintest intention of seeking to prevent the Indonesian >>> plan from going ahead. >>> >>> In 1961, the 800,000 Melanesian people of West Papua were promised >>> independence. Holland, the colonial power, began to transfer the >>> administration to local people. In 1962, Indonesia invaded. The attack >>> failed, but John Kennedy, with Britain's backing, coerced the Dutch into >>> surrendering West Papua to the United Nations, on the grounds that if the >>> Indonesian government were not appeased it might succumb to communism. The >>> UN, as planned, promptly gave West Papua to Indonesia, but on condition that >>> within five years its people would be granted "the right of >>> self-determination". In the event, 1000 Papuan men were rounded up and >>> forced to vote on pain of death for Indonesian sovereignty. >>> >>> Since then, tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of Papuans have been >>> tortured, mutilated and killed by Indonesian soldiers. The government >>> launched a eugenics programme whose purpose, according to the former >>> governor, was to give "birth to a new generation of people without curly >>> hair, sowing the seeds for greater beauty". The Papuans have been pushed out >>> of their lands and replaced by people from the central islands of Indonesia, >>> brought in by the government to pacify the province. Its forests have been >>> sold to logging companies, its mountains to western mining firms. When >>> villagers have sought to defend their lands, they have been bombed and >>> strafed. Now the whole place is about to explode. >>> >>> Tomorrow, the indigenous people will make a formal declaration of >>> independence. The Indonesian army has been waiting for months for just such >>> a moment. Since August, thousands of commandos and paratroops have been >>> flown into West Papua. British-made Hawk jets have been overflying the >>> province's central highlands. Their deployment there was, according to the >>> Financial Times, sanctioned by Britain's Foreign Office. Militias are >>> currently being trained by the army outside the town of Wamena, one of the >>> centres of Papuan resistance. Some 12,000 firearms have been flown in, >>> presumably for distribution to Indonesian volunteers. Local people, by >>> contrast, are armed with spears and bows and arrows. >>> >>> The Indonesian army has been encouraging the Papuans to rise, planting >>> agents provocateurs and issuing public statements suggesting that >>> independence ceremonies will be tolerated (all previous rituals have been >>> ruthlessly crushed). Here, as in East Timor, the army will seek to unleash >>> sufficient force to persuade the indigenous people to abandon their hopes of >>> self-determination. >>> >>> Papuan leaders have repeatedly sought to reach a peaceful independence >>> settlement with the Indonesian government. But while President Wahid seems >>> vaguely sympathetic to their cause, vice-president Megawati, who has, in >>> effect, ultimate control over the province, appears interested only in >>> delivering lucrative logging and development concessions to the army in >>> order to secure its support. The Papuans have approached the British >>> government for help. It has ignored them. And still it continues to sell >>> arms to Indonesia. >>> >>> When the massacre begins, our officials will doubtless wring their hands and >>> lament the failure of Indonesia's people to resolve their differences by >>> peaceful means. Having seen what happened in East Timor and having failed to >>> do anything to prevent its repetition, the blood this time will be on our >>> hands. We helped to start all this. Now we must stop it. >>> From shawneepaws1 at icqmail.com Sun Dec 3 03:41:57 2000 From: shawneepaws1 at icqmail.com (pete davidson) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 03:41:57 -0800 Subject: reply to the human-animal hybrids Message-ID: <200012051104.FAA10695@einstein.ssz.com> this is an interesting concept i think if you can do this thing with humans and dogs (wolves) i might be interested in this one thing is is there any side affects and what would happien if it works what do you need from me and what would changeif this does work it would greatly help me in my life long dream of being a wolf. my e-mail address is shawneepaws1 at icqmail.com From directmarketing at netzero.com Sun Dec 3 05:25:34 2000 From: directmarketing at netzero.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 05:25:34 -0800 Subject: Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly At Home - Here's How! Message-ID: <200012031332.FAA15938@cyberpass.net> Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly Home Workers Needed Nationwide Hundreds of companies are currently looking for telecommuters. There is no experience needed and you can start right away. This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program. In fact, none of the companies require any special fees to get started. Many offer free training. Start earning money in your spare time. You set the hours, you decide how much you want to make. Email powerstaff at earthlink.net with "Work At Home" in the subject heading for complete details. Best Wishes Home Workers Directory P.S. Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. From danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au Sat Dec 2 16:20:15 2000 From: danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 11:20:15 +1100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: ; from frissell@panix.com on Sat, Dec 02, 2000 at 01:57:42PM -0500 References: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> > Actually, the *US* copyright was siezed by the US government at the > beginning of the war and not returned to Germany until the last decade or > so. So there are plenty of US copies that would remain legal. In Australia at least, I think Mein Kampf is now out of copyright (it's still 50 years from death of author here). Danny. From photo.1 at ic24.net Sun Dec 3 03:34:44 2000 From: photo.1 at ic24.net (Giacomino C Parkinson) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 11:34:44 -0000 Subject: Only Ones Message-ID: <005601c05d1d$0df700a0$9ca22cc3@freeserve.co.uk> http://www.intelcities.com/Classic_Lane/perrett From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Dec 3 12:23:51 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 12:23:51 -0800 Subject: Net News as Cover Traffic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001203122351.009f0460@idiom.com> At 08:56 AM 12/1/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: >Yes, different. alt.anonymous.messages is simply a message mix. >I'm talking about a system that would provide lots of encrypted >traffic *ON THE SAME PORTS* as whatever other encrypted traffic >you were sending. IOW, no one should be able to look at logs and >say, "well, we can ignore that packet, it's NNTP. This other >packet over here is mail, and probably the thing we're after..." That sounds like a job for IPSEC. All the packets are encrypted at the IP level, though you can still tell the source and destination of the outer packet, and you can tell the packet size, so it's not a strict Pipenet substitute - if you see traffic from A to B and same-sized traffic from B to C, you can guess that B might have routed some packets from A to C. But it still answers your basic request. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From agl at linuxpower.org Sun Dec 3 11:27:12 2000 From: agl at linuxpower.org (Adam Langley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 14:27:12 -0500 Subject: UK Govt seeks to capture and store everything for 7 years Message-ID: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> There is an Observer artical at: http://www.observer.co.uk//uk_news/story/0,6903,406191,00.html The leaked report refered to is at: http://cryptome.org/ncis-carnivore.htm Choate: There's no need to post the whole thing to the list now. AGL -- In an orderly world, there's always a place for the disorderly. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 3 12:05:52 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:05:52 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: At 2:27 PM -0500 12/3/00, Adam Langley wrote: >Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:UK Govt seeks to capture and st >(MiME/CSOm) (0000F86A) This is really getting out of hand! Attempting to open this message, by clicking on the attachment, bombs/crashes my Eudora Pro 5.0.1 mailer. Repeatedly--I tried 4 times. Maybe it's something that Eudora Pro, a very common mailer, is not doing properly. Maybe I failed to set the DigitalBassomaticMime preferences properly. Maybe I didn't installed SHADecoder in the right place. I don't have the time to investigate each one of the new and weird bomb syndromes each time it happens. What I know is that an increasing fraction of the (ironically _decreasing_ total number of) messages to Cypherpunks are in "weird" formats: -- MIME -- attachments, sometimes "inline," sometimes not -- tiny fonts, colored fonts, other MIME cruft -- signatures as _attachments_ Folks, I urge you to test your new signing policies with a variety of mailers. And to think carefully about whether the signatures are worth the hassle. (My view, stated many times over the years, is that routine signing of everyday messages is a waste of time for everyone. For lots of reasons.) Remember, people will be reading ASCII mail on a variety of systems: Windows, NT, DOS, VT100, Mac, Amiga, Minitel, PDAs, etc.. And with a variety of mailers: Outlook, Eudora, mutt, pine, NextStep mail, etc. And they may have a variety of crypto tools either installed, linked to their mailers, or available only by launching the app: PGP of varying vintages, GPG, SMIME, etc. If messages are signed, great care should be taken to ensure that the signatures do not in any way interfere with the normal presentation of good old ASCII text, the lingua franca of the online world. Absent this, I'm just going to have to start trashing without reading the messages from folks whose messages bomb my mail program. I'm sure they won't mind. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) 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The user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and the use of this document. From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Sun Dec 3 13:58:30 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:58:30 -0500 Subject: Scenes from the Supreme Court protests today Message-ID: What an excellent example of how anonymous politcal commentary can benefit society at large. Quite worthy of it's status as heir to 'The Federalist Papers'. I look forward to reading more of your work in the future. -p(ublius) "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Anonymous @cyberpass.net on 12/02/2000 04:38:49 PM Please respond to Anonymous Sent by: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net From lizard at mrlizard.com Sun Dec 3 17:28:28 2000 From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 17:28:28 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> References: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> At 04:20 PM 12/2/2000, Danny Yee wrote: > > Actually, the *US* copyright was siezed by the US government at the > > beginning of the war and not returned to Germany until the last decade or > > so. So there are plenty of US copies that would remain legal. > >In Australia at least, I think Mein Kampf is now out of copyright (it's >still 50 years from death of author here). Really? Doesn't the Berne convention override national laws? If not...what would the odds be of the Aussies setting up "Gutenberg Down Under" to host works that won't leave copyright in the US and Europe for decades, if ever? From rsw at mit.edu Sun Dec 3 16:16:04 2000 From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:16:04 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 03:05:52PM -0500 References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 3 16:52:45 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:52:45 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: At 7:16 PM -0500 12/3/00, Riad S. Wahby wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Tim May wrote: >> If messages are signed, great care should be taken to ensure that the >> signatures do not in any way interfere with the normal presentation >> of good old ASCII text, the lingua franca of the online world. > >The problem you're seeing arises because your mailer and others like >it (Outlook, etc.) do not follow the PGP/MIME standard (RFC 2015, >Oct. 1996), which calls for the support of the content-types >application/pgp-encrypted, application/pgp-signature, and >application/pgp-keys. Unfortunately, many of us use mailers that make >some attempt at supporting standards, and in the end you just can't >read our mail. You are so right. It is pointless for me to argue that you folks should stick to ASCII. Therefore, it is best that I simply take the 5-6 recent posters involved and filter them out of my incoming mail. As each new MIMEoid appears, I'll add him to the filter file. Bye! --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From lizard at mrlizard.com Sun Dec 3 20:02:49 2000 From: lizard at mrlizard.com (Lizard) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 20:02:49 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <20001204144920.A20701@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203200014.04f3ceb0@mrlizard.com> At 07:49 PM 12/3/2000, Danny Yee wrote: >Lizard wrote: > > Really? Doesn't the Berne convention override national laws? > >Probably, yes. Does that mean national copyright laws only apply to >their own citizens/residents? What happens in the case of dual >citizenship? And does place of publication come into it? In most cases, national laws are altered to bring them 'in line' with treaties. (All treaties.) This has been an issue in the US, where the SC has ruled that a treaty cannot violate the constitution...or, rather, that it doesn't matter WHAT Congress agreed to, the Constitution will trump any laws passed to institute it. That this might somehow change is a favorite paranoia of a loony right. (And, were it likely to occur, it would be a justifiable paranoia...it would allow the legislature to do an end-run around the Bill of Rights. For example, the US as it stands CANNOT ban 'hate speech' from US-hosted servers, even if Europe pressured them into signing a treaty to do so.) From rfiero at pophost.com Sun Dec 3 20:07:54 2000 From: rfiero at pophost.com (Richard Fiero) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 20:07:54 -0800 Subject: Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001202133953.00ab0c00@199.166.24.1> Message-ID: <4.0.1.20001203200536.008efee0@postoffice.pacbell.net> There can now be no doubt that Wired is a pod of the US national security apparatus like CNN is. ===== Joe Baptista wrote: > > >Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs (Politics 2:00 a.m. PST) >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40449,00.html?tw=wn20001202 >Palestinian supporters have created a site from where they distribute >tools and viruses to fellow believers in the fight against Israel. >Visitors are greeted with a message: 'I swear that I will not use these >programs on anyone but Jews and Israelis.' By Carmen Gentile. >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > >-- >Joe Baptista >www.dot.god > From matthewgream at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 12:44:11 2000 From: matthewgream at hotmail.com (matthew gream) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 20:44:11 -0000 Subject: Crimes Against Humanity: : The Struggle for Global Justice Message-ID: No doubt readers of this forum will be interested in Geoffrey Robertson's ``Crimes Against Humanity: : The Struggle for Global Justice`` (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713991976) in which he does excellent justice to tracing the origins of human rights and international human rights causes, especially as it evolved post nuremburg through the UNHRC, The Balkans, General Pinochet, Kosovo, East Timor and The ICC. Geoffrey is scathingly critical of the hypocrisy of international diplomacy in its failure to uphold agreed upon conventions and fundamental rights for individuals. His explanation not only illustrates circumstances as they occurred, but he tends to decribe how they should be, in order that "justice is seen to be done". Although there is no mention of cryptography, the insights into geopolitics and "the merry-go-round in geneva" illustrate the cogs and lubricants in the international framework of legal and diplomatic wangling. Fans of Jack Straw will be pleased that he "did the right thing" in the case of Pinochet, and my hero Noam Chomsky gets a brief message (his incisive criticisms on American foreign policy - and Robertson holds nothing bad in criticising the continuing hypocrisy). Matthew Gream Brussels, December 2000 _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From rsw at MIT.EDU Sun Dec 3 18:26:29 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:26:29 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 07:52:45PM -0500 References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001203212557.A11762@positron.mit.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 923 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sun Dec 3 20:09:26 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:09:26 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001203212557.A11762@positron.mit.edu>; from rsw@mit.edu on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 09:26:29PM -0500 References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> <20001203212557.A11762@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001203230925.B28702@cluebot.com> Both of you make reasonable points. (I read cypherpunks exclusively with mutt, which does follow the standards, perhaps even fanatically.) But there seems to be little benefit to (a) signing messages, though this admittedly a personal issue and (b) using MIME types when some mailreaders will not support them. Heck, even leaving aside the Eudora problem, MIME attachments would pose problems if I want to use /bin/mail in a pinch. -Declan (living in the '80s) On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 09:26:29PM -0500, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Tim May wrote: > > It is pointless for me to argue that you folks should stick to ASCII. > > I agree that people should stick to ASCII, which is why my messages > are completely made up of plain ASCII text. I use the content-type > fields only to make it easier for mailers that support MIME to handle > my messages; in this case, it's text/plain, so everyone should display > it the same. Presumably that includes your mail client, as I've > tested my mutt patch against Eudora Pro, and it seems to work fine. > If it doesn't, please let me know how it misbehaves so that I can fix > it. > > - -- > Riad Wahby > rsw at mit.edu > MIT VI-2/A 2002 > > 5105 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org > > iD8DBQE6KwC1iHor6RkxxqYRAmThAKDGHjGIvMaHBhdwTaFBqFmNTcAjcACg3GDh > GqlAWUPXbVh83pFuvnVjtM0= > =0Wbu > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > From bear at sonic.net Sun Dec 3 23:24:02 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:24:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <200012040559.AAA01725@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Adam Back wrote: >The protocols you list are online. Not that this is a bad thing -- I >kind of prefer the online idea -- rather than the "and then you go to >jail" implications of fraud tracing in the offline protocols. Plus >you have a risk of accidentally double spending if your computer >crashes or something. I think that would depend on the banker. "Bob spent this hundred dollars three times," muses Alice. "Check and see if he's got overdraft protection for the extra two hundred... if he doesn't, then put it on his credit card with a fifteen dollar loan orignation fee and charge him two percent a month...." Jail time, in most cases, probably just isn't profitable for the bankers. After all, how are you going to soak the guy for fees and interest if he's behind bars? Bear From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 3 21:50:57 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 23:50:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Physical Meet: Austin, Tx. Tue. Dec. 12 2000, 7-9pm Message-ID: Tuesday, Dec. 12, 2000 Austin Cypherpunks Monthly Physical Meeting Central Market HEB Cafe 38th & N. Lamar 2nd. Tuesday of each month 7-9pm http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html We normaly meet outside at the tables unless the weather is bad. Look for the red covered 'Applied Cryptography' book to identify the group. Please visit the homepage for information on joining both the Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (CDR) as well as the local mailing list. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rsw at MIT.EDU Sun Dec 3 21:11:01 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:11:01 -0500 Subject: manual crypto In-Reply-To: <66ef517c1b433d6a2308a97aa661099a@mix2.hyperreal.pl>; from mix@mix2.hyperreal.pl on Mon, Dec 04, 2000 at 03:29:48AM +0100 References: <66ef517c1b433d6a2308a97aa661099a@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: <20001204001101.A12399@positron.mit.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Dec 3 21:59:45 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 00:59:45 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <3A27748E.D9A39988@algroup.co.uk> (message from Ben Laurie on Fri, 01 Dec 2000 09:51:10 +0000) Message-ID: <200012040559.AAA01725@cypherspace.org> Ben wrote: > > different process. I don't think you can do efficient offline ecash > > with Wagner et al's mechanism -- I'd guess it's more comparable with > > the functionality offered by Chaum's blind signature. > > I'm not sure what you think the requirements for "efficient offline > ecash" are, but I should note that the double-blinded version of lucre > doesn't require the ZKP, and there's also a non-interactive variant of > the ZKP for the single-blinded variant. They are both described in the > current version of the paper (at least, I'm sure the first as, and > somewhat sure the second is). Offline means offline with fraud-tracing in event of double spending, so the efficiency refers to the computation and communication cost of the withdraw and deposit protocols which do the normal ecash thing, plus encode identity in the coin in the withdraw protocol in a way which will be revealed in a double spent show protocol. The protocols you list are online. Not that this is a bad thing -- I kind of prefer the online idea -- rather than the "and then you go to jail" implications of fraud tracing in the offline protocols. Plus you have a risk of accidentally double spending if your computer crashes or something. Adam From adam at cypherspace.org Sun Dec 3 22:14:38 2000 From: adam at cypherspace.org (Adam Back) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 01:14:38 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001129090722.0206f4a8@shell11.ba.best.com> (jamesd@echeque.com) Message-ID: <200012040614.BAA01737@cypherspace.org> James wrote: > Adam Back wrote: > > Hal says: > > > > > > http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash1.html and > > > http://www.finney.org/~hal/chcash2.html > > > > Wow look at the dates on those files -- Oct 93, and we still no > > deployed ecash. You'd think there would be a market there for porn > > sites alone with merchant repudiation rates, and lack of privacy in > > other payment systems. > > The obvious starting market for good ecash is perverse > pornography. Another good starting market is interactive sexual > performance over the internet. Whatever the class of pornography it is that is popular on the internet would indeed be a good starting market. I'd consider this class the "mainstream" pornography on the internet. So I'm not sure if you're referring to this or some more risky harder to find stuff which people may arguably be willing to pay a higher premium for. I'd aim for the mainstream stuff due to volume. > There have been many attempts at ecash, but I am not aware of any > products involving useful, spendable, convenient, anonymous ecash > targeted at that or similar markets. The only really usable > anonymous ecash was that of the Mark Twain bank, which crippled its > cash to prevent it from being used by that market. I presume the crippling you're talking about is the payee traceability with collusion of payer and bank. However I'm not sure I agree that the payee anonymity identification feature killed it for this application. For this particular application there appear to be plenty of sites willing to serve the content sans anonymity -- they're VISA, etc merchants no less. I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application was MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related to pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. Plus of course: - the need to download a client - the small userbase making it an unattractive proposition for users - the need to setup an account (in US funds) -- no accountless operation - accounts were difficult to setup too - the greedy fee structure - differentiating between merchants and users I'd have thought the thing to do was put an ecash client in Mozilla and work on getting it into netscape. Plus download plugins for Internet Explorer. So whoever develops enough clue, capability and interest in making money to do this someday needs to think about making it work with existing credit card sites. Give back a one time credit card number for legacy sites which is cryptographically unlinkable with the ecash spender. In general try to make it interoperate with other payment systems. Try to make it as painless and instant as possible to buy ecash. All of this you'd think would be obvious. Adam From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Dec 4 02:11:40 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 02:11:40 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203200014.04f3ceb0@mrlizard.com> References: <20001204144920.A20701@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001204021140.01d375f0@idiom.com> At 08:02 PM 12/3/00 -0800, Lizard wrote: >At 07:49 PM 12/3/2000, Danny Yee wrote: >>Lizard wrote: >> > Really? Doesn't the Berne convention override national laws? >> >>Probably, yes. Does that mean national copyright laws only apply to >>their own citizens/residents? What happens in the case of dual >>citizenship? And does place of publication come into it? > >In most cases, national laws are altered to bring them 'in line' with >treaties. (All treaties.) This has been an issue in the US, where the SC >has ruled that a treaty cannot violate the constitution...or, rather, that >it doesn't matter WHAT Congress agreed to, the Constitution will trump any >laws passed to institute it. I don't know if Australia's joined Berne (I assume yes) or how they've implemented it. Copyright laws, like most laws, only apply in whatever jurisdiction the government that writes them can get away with enforcing them. (For most countries, that's their national boundaries, plus occasionally expatriate citizens; for some, it's quite a bit less :-) Traditional Chinese copyright law only applied to civilization, i.e. Chinese-language books written by Chinese; stuff written by barbarians wasn't provided, so lots of my Taiwanese fellow students in college had much lower-cost versions of US-written textbooks, and that tradition was adapted to software on CD-ROMs at least until recently. In the US, that doesn't really affect copyright - the US Constitution doesn't go into any depth on the details of copyright law, so the US Congress was perfectly free to replace the previous details with Berne convention details. The one arguable exception is that the Const. authorizes grants of patents and copyrights for limited periods of time, and the current definitions of "limited" for copyright keep getting stretched; I think it's now "75 years after you're dead, or pretty much forever if you're a corporation". The general comment I've heard from lawyers is that copyright lengths will keep getting extended indefinitely to prevent Mickey Mouse's image from going off copyright. >That this might somehow change is a favorite paranoia of a loony right. >(And, were it likely to occur, it would be a justifiable paranoia...it >would allow the legislature to do an end-run around the Bill of Rights. For >example, the US as it stands CANNOT ban 'hate speech' from US-hosted >servers, even if Europe pressured them into signing a treaty to do so.) No, but Congress does a pretty good job of passing Unconstitutional laws already :-( The treaty trick that's been going on, at least in the ReaganBushClinton years, is for the administration to haggle other countries into a treaty or lower-status-than-treaty agreement about something obnoxious, like drugs laws or crypto export restrictions, then bully Congress into implementing legislation for it "because we've already negotiated it with our major partners". Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From declan at well.com Sun Dec 3 23:29:45 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 02:29:45 -0500 Subject: Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.20001203200536.008efee0@postoffice.pacbell.net>; from rfiero@pophost.com on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 08:07:54PM -0800 References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001202133953.00ab0c00@199.166.24.1> <4.0.1.20001203200536.008efee0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20001204022945.A30921@cluebot.com> You found me out. I'll be sure to report you at the next meeting of the Council on Foreign Relations, a joint event with the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers. The Orbital Mind Control Lasers won't just be set on "stun" this time. -Declan, not speaking for any pod, tentacle, or any other vaguely protoplasmic lifeform that may or may not be associated with the U.S. national security apparatus. On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 08:07:54PM -0800, Richard Fiero wrote: > There can now be no doubt that Wired is a pod of the US national > security apparatus like CNN is. > ===== > > Joe Baptista wrote: > > > > > >Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs (Politics 2:00 a.m. PST) > >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40449,00.html?tw=wn20001202 > >Palestinian supporters have created a site from where they distribute > >tools and viruses to fellow believers in the fight against Israel. > >Visitors are greeted with a message: 'I swear that I will not use these > >programs on anyone but Jews and Israelis.' By Carmen Gentile. > >. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > > >-- > >Joe Baptista > >www.dot.god > > > From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Dec 4 02:49:05 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 02:49:05 -0800 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: References: <200012040559.AAA01725@cypherspace.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001204024905.019f8610@idiom.com> At 11:24 PM 12/3/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Adam Back wrote: >>The protocols you list are online. Not that this is a bad thing -- I >>kind of prefer the online idea -- rather than the "and then you go to >>jail" implications of fraud tracing in the offline protocols. Plus >>you have a risk of accidentally double spending if your computer >>crashes or something. > >I think that would depend on the banker. "Bob spent this hundred >dollars three times," muses Alice. "Check and see if he's got >overdraft protection for the extra two hundred... if he doesn't, >then put it on his credit card with a fifteen dollar loan orignation >fee and charge him two percent a month...." Jail time, in most >cases, probably just isn't profitable for the bankers. After all, The issue isn't whether jail or just extra charges are the appropriate remedy for double-spending - it's that the offline methods generally rely on encoding a user's name in the coins so you can tell who did the double spending, which not only adds a lot of administrative overhead but requires that you have a system of identification of your users. Some online methods also do the "identify and punish" approach; others do the far simpler "first one to grab the money wins" approach to double-spending, which is better for anonymity, though it imposes different risks on the users. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Sun Dec 3 18:29:48 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 03:29:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: manual crypto Message-ID: <66ef517c1b433d6a2308a97aa661099a@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Well, not crypto but stego. I was looking for ways to use existing infrastructure for transporting ascii messages to send info which is not harvestable by machines. This came up: It is intended for cross-eyed free viewing. Cross your eyes until the Vs and Xs at the top and bottom overlap with the adjacent ones. V V V V V OIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJF EDGHOUIEROUIYWEVDGHOXUIEROIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWE KJBSVDBOIWERTBAKJBSVEDBOIWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBA SFDHNWECTBYUVRGSFDHNYWECTBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRG HNOWFHLSFDGWVRGHNOWFGHLSFDWVRGHNOWSFGHLSDWVRGHNLOWSFGLSDWVRG YPOWVXTNWFECHRGYPOWVEXTNWFCHRGYPOWNVEXTNFCHRGYPWOWNVETNFCHRG SVYUWXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETU WVERBYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIWEYUIVWLVERBEOIWEYUI EUIOETOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUNWEBYOETUIOEWOUNWEBY WFVEWVETN9PUW4TWFVEWPVETN9UW4TWFVETWPVET9UW4TWFBVETWPET9UW4T NOUWQERFECHIBYWNOUWQXERFECIBYWNOUWFQXERFCIBYWNOFUWFQXRFCIBYW VEHWETUQECRFVEVEHWERTUQECFVEVEHWQERTUQCFVEVEOHWQERUQCFVE UIWTUIRTWUYWQCRUIWTUYIRTWUWQCRUIWTXUYIRTUWQCRUIBWTXUYRTUWQCR IYPOWOXNPWTHIECIYPOWTOXNPWHIECIYPONWTOXNWHIECIYLPONWTXNWHIEC R9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYB Any sources for making these ? I know that it can be machine-read, by extracting 3D figure and OCR-ing, but not today easily and in quantity. From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 4 06:22:55 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:22:55 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:24 PM -0800 on 12/3/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: > "Check and see if he's got > overdraft protection for the extra two hundred... if he doesn't, > then put it on his credit card with a fifteen dollar loan orignation > fee and charge him two percent a month...." Doesn't work like that. It's more like "Eediot. That's what you get for doing an offline transaction. No soup for you!" :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 4 06:25:14 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:25:14 -0500 Subject: Palestinian Crackers Share Bugs In-Reply-To: <20001204022945.A30921@cluebot.com> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001202133953.00ab0c00@199.166.24.1> <4.0.1.20001203200536.008efee0@postoffice.pacbell.net> <20001204022945.A30921@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 2:29 AM -0500 on 12/4/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > You found me out. I'll be sure to report you at the next meeting of > the Council on Foreign Relations, a joint event with the Trilateral > Commission and the Bilderbergers. The Orbital Mind Control Lasers > won't just be set on "stun" this time. > > -Declan, not speaking for any pod, tentacle, or any other vaguely > protoplasmic lifeform that may or may not be associated with the > U.S. national security apparatus. Actually, it's quite okay to talk to Declan. As long as you're wearing your extra-tin-foil hat, anyway... :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From supplies at cybercart.cc Mon Dec 4 07:00:11 2000 From: supplies at cybercart.cc (Supplies) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 10:00:11 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <003601c05e02$ea04c2e0$0200a8c0@frontdesk> www.ontarioforum.com BROUGHT TO YOU FREE OF CHARGE BY ASK US HOW YOU TOO CAN BE A SPONSOR admin at ontarioforum.com If this email causes you any inconvenience whatsoever please email us and we will remove you from our addresses. Thank You -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9893 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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From mmotyka at lsil.com Mon Dec 4 11:13:05 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:13:05 -0800 Subject: manual crypto Message-ID: <3A2BECC1.5DB544B4@lsil.com> I've got sources kicking around somewhere that do this with noise patterns in monochrome bitmaps. I'm not sure if the effect using ascii is achieved in the exact same way - no doubt it is very closely related but not as dense as the bitmaps. Mike > >Well, not crypto but stego. > >I was looking for ways to use existing infrastructure for >transporting ascii messages to send info which is not >harvestable by machines. > >This came up: > >It is intended for cross-eyed free viewing. Cross your eyes until the >Vs and Xs at the top and bottom overlap with the adjacent ones. > >V V V V V >OIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJF >EDGHOUIEROUIYWEVDGHOXUIEROIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWE >KJBSVDBOIWERTBAKJBSVEDBOIWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBA >SFDHNWECTBYUVRGSFDHNYWECTBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRG >HNOWFHLSFDGWVRGHNOWFGHLSFDWVRGHNOWSFGHLSDWVRGHNLOWSFGLSDWVRG >YPOWVXTNWFECHRGYPOWVEXTNWFCHRGYPOWNVEXTNFCHRGYPWOWNVETNFCHRG >SVYUWXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETU >WVERBYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIWEYUIVWLVERBEOIWEYUI >EUIOETOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUNWEBYOETUIOEWOUNWEBY >WFVEWVETN9PUW4TWFVEWPVETN9UW4TWFVETWPVET9UW4TWFBVETWPET9UW4T >NOUWQERFECHIBYWNOUWQXERFECIBYWNOUWFQXERFCIBYWNOFUWFQXRFCIBYW >VEHWETUQECRFVEVEHWERTUQECFVEVEHWQERTUQCFVEVEOHWQERUQCFVE >UIWTUIRTWUYWQCRUIWTUYIRTWUWQCRUIWTXUYIRTUWQCRUIBWTXUYRTUWQCR >IYPOWOXNPWTHIECIYPOWTOXNPWHIECIYPONWTOXNWHIECIYLPONWTXNWHIEC >R9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYB > >Any sources for making these ? > >I know that it can be machine-read, by extracting 3D figure >and OCR-ing, but not today easily and in quantity. From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 4 08:27:39 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:27:39 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001204021140.01d375f0@idiom.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203200014.04f3ceb0@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:26 AM 12/4/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >Traditional Chinese copyright law only applied to civilization, >i.e. Chinese-language books written by Chinese; stuff written by >barbarians wasn't provided, so lots of my Taiwanese fellow students in college >had much lower-cost versions of US-written textbooks, and that tradition >was adapted to software on CD-ROMs at least until recently. Maybe so with Chinese, but many publishers publish overseas-only versions of CS texts because the furriners (e.g., Indians) couldn't afford US rates. I've seen legitimately licensed $5 copies of, e.g., K & R printed on thinner paper... From ernest at luminousnetworks.com Mon Dec 4 11:57:11 2000 From: ernest at luminousnetworks.com (Ernest Hua) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:57:11 -0800 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... Message-ID: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DDA1@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> http://www0.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/internet/docs/705193l.htm Was this missed by everyone? Or did it appear in another form? Ern -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 677 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 4 09:23:15 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:23:15 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203200014.04f3ceb0@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: At 11:27 AM -0500 12/4/00, David Honig wrote: >At 05:26 AM 12/4/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >>Traditional Chinese copyright law only applied to civilization, >>i.e. Chinese-language books written by Chinese; stuff written by >>barbarians wasn't provided, so lots of my Taiwanese fellow students in >college >>had much lower-cost versions of US-written textbooks, and that tradition >>was adapted to software on CD-ROMs at least until recently. > >Maybe so with Chinese, but many publishers publish >overseas-only versions of CS texts because the furriners (e.g., Indians) >couldn't afford US rates. I've seen legitimately licensed $5 copies >of, e.g., K & R printed on thinner paper... > Do you mean you have an independent channel confirming this "legitimate license," or do you mean the rice paper version has carefully reproduced an approval page? Did you check with the copyright holders? (And independent channel would be a letter or even an electronic statement from the copyright holders saying the version was valid. A digitally signed statement would do.) I don't doubt that differential marketing plans will evolve. Selling a CD-ROM of Microsoft Office for $300 US in Bangalore is just not going to fly, not with the back-alley version selling for the rupee equivalent of $5. "The street will find its own uses for technology." And once Mojo gets running, I'm hoping to buy Microsoft Office for 10 Mojobucks. (So I can then resell it to 50 others....) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl Mon Dec 4 10:04:27 2000 From: mix at mix2.hyperreal.pl (Anonymous) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:04:27 -0500 Subject: German Faces Charges for Selling Adolf Sofa Message-ID: <55bfb85db82c706b2c271f86386637db@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Monday December 4 9:56 AM ET German Faces Charges for Selling Adolf Sofa Set By Fiona Shaikh BERLIN (Reuters) - A furniture-shop owner should be charged with breaking Germanys anti-Nazi laws for naming chairs and sofas after Adolf Hitler and other Third Reich leaders, a local Jewish community leader said on Monday. Michael Fuerst, leader of the Jewish community in Lower Saxony state, urged state prosecutors in Hanover to charge store owner Franz-Georg Schwetje with violating strict laws against glorifying the Third Reich for using names such as Adolf and Hermann for his sofa sets. Schwetje ran advertisements for his sofa sale in a local newspaper in Hildesheim, 18 miles south of the central city of Hanover, bearing the name Three-piece sofa set Adolf -- marked down to 2,998 marks ($1,600) from 5,998 marks. He also listed a Cabinet Rommel and Chest of drawers Paulus after World War Two generals Erwin Rommel and Friedrich Paulus. The Hermann three-piece sofa set, which recalls Luftwaffe Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering, was also marked down. The ads represent a clear glorification of the Third Reich and we have urged the state prosecutors to initiate legal proceedings against Schwetje, Fuerst told Reuters. Well have to see what charges the state prosecutors decide to raise. Schwertje insisted there was no Nazi connection. I simply passed along the names that my suppliers provided, he told Reuters in a telephone interview. Im not a Nazi and I dont want to have anything to do with such people. Those right-wing extremists should be locked up. Schwetje, 57, added that he could not remember writing the advertisements because he takes pain-killers for bone cancer. He nevertheless said the names were harmless -- and that he had relatives in mind rather than Nazi leaders. If Id given the furniture a name like Sachsenhausen, that would be a different matter, said Schwetje, referring to a notorious Nazi concentration camp. But the sofa suite Hermann is named after my uncle -- Hermann Schwetje. The Greens party in Lower Saxony called for a boycott of the furniture store. The local chambers of commerce were also considering legal sanctions. Not one of my customers has complained about the adverts, Schwetje said. But the Jewish community said they were offended. So I am going to make a donation to the Jewish group. Im not sure how much, but at least 1,000 marks. Germany has been plagued by a surge in far-right crime since unity in 1990. The German government has responded by seeking to ban the far right National Democratic Party. From bear at sonic.net Mon Dec 4 14:35:17 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: manual crypto In-Reply-To: <3A2BECC1.5DB544B4@lsil.com> Message-ID: Actually, extracting a 3d image is not required. The patterns that human eyes percieve as 3d images can easily be percieved directly by machines. Sources for making SIRDS images from text are easily adapted as sources for reading them as text. Bear On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >I've got sources kicking around somewhere that do this with noise >patterns in monochrome bitmaps. I'm not sure if the effect using ascii >is achieved in the exact same way - no doubt it is very closely related >but not as dense as the bitmaps. > >Mike >> >>Well, not crypto but stego. >> >>I was looking for ways to use existing infrastructure for >>transporting ascii messages to send info which is not >>harvestable by machines. >> >>This came up: >> >>It is intended for cross-eyed free viewing. Cross your eyes until the >>Vs and Xs at the top and bottom overlap with the adjacent ones. >> >>V V V V V >>OIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJF >>EDGHOUIEROUIYWEVDGHOXUIEROIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWE >>KJBSVDBOIWERTBAKJBSVEDBOIWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBA >>SFDHNWECTBYUVRGSFDHNYWECTBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRG >>HNOWFHLSFDGWVRGHNOWFGHLSFDWVRGHNOWSFGHLSDWVRGHNLOWSFGLSDWVRG >>YPOWVXTNWFECHRGYPOWVEXTNWFCHRGYPOWNVEXTNFCHRGYPWOWNVETNFCHRG >>SVYUWXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETU >>WVERBYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIWEYUIVWLVERBEOIWEYUI >>EUIOETOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUNWEBYOETUIOEWOUNWEBY >>WFVEWVETN9PUW4TWFVEWPVETN9UW4TWFVETWPVET9UW4TWFBVETWPET9UW4T >>NOUWQERFECHIBYWNOUWQXERFECIBYWNOUWFQXERFCIBYWNOFUWFQXRFCIBYW >>VEHWETUQECRFVEVEHWERTUQECFVEVEHWQERTUQCFVEVEOHWQERUQCFVE >>UIWTUIRTWUYWQCRUIWTUYIRTWUWQCRUIWTXUYIRTUWQCRUIBWTXUYRTUWQCR >>IYPOWOXNPWTHIECIYPOWTOXNPWHIECIYPONWTOXNWHIECIYLPONWTXNWHIEC >>R9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYB >> >>Any sources for making these ? >> >>I know that it can be machine-read, by extracting 3D figure >>and OCR-ing, but not today easily and in quantity. > > From danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au Sun Dec 3 19:49:20 2000 From: danny at staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (Danny Yee) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:49:20 +1100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com>; from lizard@mrlizard.com on Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 05:28:28PM -0800 References: <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> <20001203112015.A28526@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> <5.0.0.25.2.20001203172735.04e2fc60@mrlizard.com> Message-ID: <20001204144920.A20701@staff.cs.usyd.edu.au> Lizard wrote: > Really? Doesn't the Berne convention override national laws? Probably, yes. Does that mean national copyright laws only apply to their own citizens/residents? What happens in the case of dual citizenship? And does place of publication come into it? Danny. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Dec 4 11:55:58 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:55:58 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001204021140.01d375f0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001204114947.01a38a60@idiom.com> At 11:27 AM 12/4/00 -0500, David Honig wrote: >At 05:26 AM 12/4/00 -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: >>Traditional Chinese copyright law only applied to civilization, >>i.e. Chinese-language books written by Chinese; stuff written by >>barbarians wasn't provided, so lots of my Taiwanese fellow students in >college >>had much lower-cost versions of US-written textbooks, and that tradition >>was adapted to software on CD-ROMs at least until recently. > >Maybe so with Chinese, but many publishers publish >overseas-only versions of CS texts because the furriners (e.g., Indians) >couldn't afford US rates. I've seen legitimately licensed $5 copies >of, e.g., K & R printed on thinner paper... That's legitimate, though it often leads to gray-market rules about smuggling stuff. Many of the Chinese-printed textbooks I saw had covers indicating that they were cookbooks, etc., to conceal that they were pirate editions. Tim writes: >I don't doubt that differential marketing plans will evolve. Selling >a CD-ROM of Microsoft Office for $300 US in Bangalore is just not >going to fly, not with the back-alley version selling for the rupee >equivalent of $5. > >"The street will find its own uses for technology." > >And once Mojo gets running, I'm hoping to buy Microsoft Office for 10 >Mojobucks. > >(So I can then resell it to 50 others....) Tim, you're evil and twisted. Not because you're suggesting ripping off MS, but because you're proposing inflicting that unreliable bloatware on people :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 4 12:05:02 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:05:02 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001204120233.007a7c50@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:23 PM 12/4/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > >Do you mean you have an independent channel confirming this >"legitimate license," or do you mean the rice paper version has >carefully reproduced an approval page? I believed the dead-tree 'region codes'. I had no reason to be more diligent. Not my royalties :-) Besides, since when are fake Rolexes engraved with something saying, "This cheap fake is authorized by Rolex Inc for sale to third worlders only" Neither did I check to see if the texts were the same. You are merely making a point about authentication I presume? From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Mon Dec 4 12:33:36 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:33:36 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DDA1@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> Message-ID: <3A2C0006.79ECB2A6@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> > n an October 18 statement signed by groups around the world, critics > said logs based on such archived data had been used to track > dissidents and > persecute minorities. > We urge you not to establish this requirement in a modern > communications network,'' said a 27-group coalition including the > American Civil Liberties > Union, Privacy International and the Internet Society. > > `Police agencies and powerful private interests acting outside of the > democratic means of accountability have sought to use a closed process > to establish > rules that will have the effect of binding legislation,'' the groups > added. > > In its response to these concerns, the Justice Department said there > was no such retention requirement at issue but a data ``preservation'' > provision. > > "Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United > States for nearly five years,'' the statement said. Preservation of logs is "the law"? That's news to me. I've never preserved a log over the 4 weeks or so that the default unix config. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Mon Dec 4 13:00:48 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:00:48 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... References: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DDA1@galileo.luminousnetworks.com> <3A2C0006.79ECB2A6@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: <3A2C0656.81F1C0EC@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Harmon Seaver wrote: > > "Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United > > States for nearly five years,'' the statement said. > > Preservation of logs is "the law"? That's news to me. I've never > preserved a log over the 4 weeks or so that the default unix config. > Not only that, but we don't and have never kept any sort of router logs, which is really what they would be after, I'd think. And we are the ISP for all the libraries in the whole NE part of MN. Just think of all those perverts and narco-terrorists using the free internet access in our libraries to keep in touch with Osama anonymously. Shame on us, shame, shame! -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Dec 4 15:01:34 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:01:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Computer logs Message-ID: FindLaw doesn't show anything for 'computer logs'. Other than destroying them because they are evidence of a crime I am not aware of anything that might require anyone to keep them. There certainly wasn't any sort of requirement for folks like myself at the time of the CJ trial to keep records for any length of time. The flip side is that if you go around destroying all your logs as they are made the security of your system comes into question. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Dec 4 15:15:40 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:15:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: persuasive speeches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 Lockinator21 at aol.com wrote: > I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? "How to choose persuasive speech topics". ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 4 14:38:55 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:38:55 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <3A2C0656.81F1C0EC@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: At 4:00 PM -0500 12/4/00, Harmon Seaver wrote: >Harmon Seaver wrote: > >> > "Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United >> > States for nearly five years,'' the statement said. >> >> Preservation of logs is "the law"? That's news to me. I've never >> preserved a log over the 4 weeks or so that the default unix config. >> > > Not only that, but we don't and have never kept any sort of >router logs, >which is really what they would be after, I'd think. And we are the >ISP for all >the libraries in the whole NE part of MN. Just think of all those perverts and >narco-terrorists using the free internet access in our libraries to >keep in touch >with Osama anonymously. Shame on us, shame, shame! I did some Google searches, on "preservation logs online" and found nothing. I tried some variations. I expect the nature of legal data bases is that Google will probably not turn up obscure legal rulings which failed to get media or activist attention. Maybe Findlaw will turn up something. I would be very interesting in seeing the full context of the U.S. official's basis for his comment that "preservation has been the law for nearly five years." From the time period, I am expecting CALEA is being implicated here. It would be an interesting First Amendment case if there were some putative requirement that all communications be logged (absent some specific court order to do so). The cynical point of view is that this is just one of the tens of thousands of regulations which our overbusy imperial capital generates every year. More things to turn us all into felons. I briefly had some hope when I saw a yellow Ryder truck heading north, towards Washington. Hot damn, I thought, we're gonna see another mcveighing! Alas, it was only some chads and dimples. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 4 15:44:53 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:44:53 -0600 Subject: persuasive speeches Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73F8@cobra.netsolve.net> How about a business case for relaxing intellectual property regulations? If you could put together a good persuasive speech on that one, I would like to see it. Or you could do a persuasive speech on the economic advantages of more lenient cryptographic export restrictions. Or you could do what I did when I had that project in school (and this is my personal recommendation) - blow off class to go hang out in the gallery of the House, get there and remember it's tourist season and they are rotating people through in five minute intervals, and decide to go downtown and get drunk. I then had to deliver a persuasive speech the next day on why it was more important to skip class and get drunk than to do assignments, which didn't impress anyone and earned me a failure on the assignment. Or you could subscribe to the speech writing mailing list (I'm sure there is one) and ask them. -----Original Message----- From: Lockinator21 at aol.com [mailto:Lockinator21 at aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 4:51 PM To: cypherpunks at toad.com Cc: pitbull32 at excite.com Subject: persuasive speeches I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1755 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Lockinator21 at aol.com Mon Dec 4 14:51:02 2000 From: Lockinator21 at aol.com (Lockinator21 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:51:02 EST Subject: persuasive speeches Message-ID: I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 4 15:53:55 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 17:53:55 -0600 Subject: Computer logs Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73F9@cobra.netsolve.net> It is possible for you to receive a freeze order that will compel you to maintain referenced records. These orders (generally received prior to a pending subpoena) can be rather general, so this generally serves the purpose of preventing you from going on a shred/rm/wipe/degauss spree before the authorities get what they want from you. However, I do know of at least one case where someone challenged such a document on the basis that it was obtuse. Can't cite off the top of my head, though. If you would like to see some copies of documents that are generally used by feds to accomplish these goals, let me know. I will see if I can neuter some for reference purposes. ok, Rush -----Original Message----- From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 5:02 PM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Computer logs FindLaw doesn't show anything for 'computer logs'. Other than destroying them because they are evidence of a crime I am not aware of anything that might require anyone to keep them. There certainly wasn't any sort of requirement for folks like myself at the time of the CJ trial to keep records for any length of time. The flip side is that if you go around destroying all your logs as they are made the security of your system comes into question. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4005 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dorr at asc.upenn.edu Mon Dec 4 15:37:50 2000 From: dorr at asc.upenn.edu (Daniel Orr) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 18:37:50 -0500 Subject: persuasive speeches Message-ID: "We must also take into account the nature of our particular audience when making a speech of praise; for, as Socrates used to say, 'it is not difficult to praise the Athenians to an Athenian audience.'" - Aristotle, On Rhetoric -----Original Message----- From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 6:16 PM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: persuasive speeches On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 Lockinator21 at aol.com wrote: > I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? "How to choose persuasive speech topics". ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bpayne37 at home.com Mon Dec 4 18:24:58 2000 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bpayne37 at home.com) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 19:24:58 -0700 Subject: sami warah Message-ID: <3A2C51F9.913FE129@home.com> art Weclome to israeli 'intelligence.' http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/buehlerpayne.html We got to get out of this stuff. With our money, of course. From mike722 at arabia.com Mon Dec 4 15:34:56 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:34:56 -0400 Subject: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200012042334.TAA05273@mail.cufan.mil.ve> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. 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Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Mon Dec 4 15:34:58 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:34:58 -0400 Subject: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200012042334.TAA05285@mail.cufan.mil.ve> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. 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Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Mon Dec 4 15:35:01 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:35:01 -0400 Subject: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200012042335.TAA05299@mail.cufan.mil.ve> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From mike722 at arabia.com Mon Dec 4 15:35:02 2000 From: mike722 at arabia.com (mike722 at arabia.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 19:35:02 -0400 Subject: ADV: Search Engine Registration Message-ID: <200012042335.TAA05306@mail.cufan.mil.ve> Removal instructions below I saw your listing on the internet. I work for a company that specializes in getting clients web sites listed as close to the top of the major search engines as possible. Our fee is only $29.95 per month to submit your site at least twice a month to over 350 search engines and directories. To get started and put your web site in the fast lane, call our toll free number below. Mike Bender 888-532-8842 To be removed call: 888-800-6339 X1377 From quailrun at centex.net Mon Dec 4 18:35:04 2000 From: quailrun at centex.net (S. Hunter) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 20:35:04 -0600 Subject: ip: Chaos Theory Message-ID: http://www.lewrockwell.com/murphy/murphy19.html Chaos Theory by Bob Murphy Throughout history, there have been countless arguments advanced to support the State. None of them has been valid. This essay will address a certain class of these arguments, whose sleight-of-hand consists in a definitional trick. My purpose here is not to make the positive case for pure laissez-faire, but merely to show that each pro-government argument is a non sequitur. Anarchy is the absence of government, both in political science and everyday usage (it is the first definition given by Websters, e.g.). Chaos, in the context of social science, refers to lawlessness, or the absence of a relative degree of regularity in human affairs. (I say a "relative degree" because, obviously, virtually all humans will always obey the rule of, e.g., avoiding someone with leprosy or not slaughtering every female in sight. The laws to which lawlessness is opposed are generally meant to imply the sometimes irksome rules necessary for a civil society.) It should be immediately clear that anarchy and chaos are distinct things; you can have anarchy without chaos (e.g. groups of humans from the Stone Age  if you subscribe to evolutionary accounts) and you can have chaos without anarchy (e.g. the French Revolution, if you subscribe to historical accounts). Any argument that conflates anarchy and chaos is thus invalid. Before proceeding, I ask the reader to indulge me in a brief digression. People often chide me for calling myself an anarchist, rather than a libertarian. The term anarchy conjures up images of atheist nuts who go around throwing bombs. Wouldnt it be much more palatable to make appeals for liberty, rather than for anarchy? Sure it would; but Im not running for class president. (I tried that once. I had the funniest posters an eighth-grader ever designed, and I posted them in the bathroom, where everyone would be sure to see! The other kids peed on them. I didnt win. Is that why Im so bitter?) Also, the statists have had quite a time of stealing labels. The good guys used to be the "liberals." No longer. The good guys used to be the ones championing ever more "rights" for the individual. No longer. The very word liberty has been raped, and I have no doubt that libertarian can be perverted to mean whatever the ruling class wants it to mean. Aside from the danger of devious usage, there is also the legitimate distinction that must be made between those who advocate a "night watchman" state  which merely enforces property rights  and those who favor complete abolition of government. Many people of the former group refer to themselves as libertarians. (They are inconsistent and confused, of course, but thats okay. Theyll come around.) Thus, to avoid any possible confusion, I advocate anarchy, pure and simple. (Also, it sounds tough to say you are an anarchist. Well, it looks tough in print. It wont help you in a fight or anything.) I should also mention that anarchy is not a good of itself; what I really desire is the truly free society. Its just that, in my opinion, only anarchy can achieve this. So, in terms of ethics or morality, I would say the highest end is freedom. But in terms of political science  dealing with forms of government  I would say the goal is anarchy. (To quote my friends bumper sticker: "Theres no government like no government.") This is somewhat analogous to the approach of Friedrich Hayek, who believed in democracy as the best means to a (relatively) free society. Although he was wrong in this conclusion, he was not so naive as to worship democracy per se. Lastly: Certain wise-alecks think they can refute my ideal of "absolute freedom" with a flippant syllogism. One of my smug conservative professors at Hillsdale College (which had a plaque in the library espousing the ideal of "Ordered Liberty," which struck me as akin to "Partial Pregnancy") offered an argument along the following lines: You cant have absolute or total freedom, because if Im free to kill you, then you cant be free to live. This is the sort of strawman logic you expect from sophomore philosophy majors (also prevalent at Hillsdale), which goes through only on a twisted definition of freedom. Imagine the scene from Mad Max, where Mel Gibson gets thrown into the cage to fight that huge brute. (You know, when everyone starts chanting, "Two men enter, one man leave!") Now suppose the "referee" says to the combatants, "All right guys, anything goes!" My question: Would it be legitimate for Gibson, as hes getting his head smashed in, to complain to the ref: "Liar! You said anything goes! I wanted to recite Hamlet!" Of course not. Yet this is precisely the argument of my college professor. So, when I say I desire a society of total freedom, I mean a society where people respect the property of others. I do not mean the physically impossible situation where two people both eat the same piece of pizza, or where people have the "freedom" to jump over the Moon. Finally, on to my main point. One of the most frequent statist tricks is the following: (1) The government assumes the responsibility of X. (2) The government screws up horribly. (3) The government cites the mess as proof of the necessity for government action. (For example, after every plane crash, people demand the FAA gets more funding. After the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy, an ex-CIA agent wrote an Op-Ed piece explaining that budget hikes were necessary to update the maps. Imagine if Firestone, after the recall fiasco, explained that it needed to raise its prices in order to provide safer tires. Im sure Ralph Nader would give them a thumbs-up.) P.J. ORourke, in his funny book, Eat the Rich, has a chapter called "Bad Capitalism," in which he says that a certain country (Albania?) is the victim of a giant Ponzi scheme  i.e. you cant have too much economic freedom. Although ORourke doesnt explain how a Ponzi scheme can make the group as a whole poorer (the original Ponzi, after all, got rich  thats why he started his scheme), his basic message is a good one, so Im not too bothered by his slight error. The same cannot be said for Ian Fisher, who wrote an August 10th article for the NY Times entitled, "Somali Businesses Stunted by Too-Free Enterprise." After detailing the thriving business competition in Somalia, Fisher sadly relates: What Somalia does not have is a government...[making] it the worlds purest laboratory for capitalism. No one collects taxes. Business is booming. Libertarians of the world, unite! So it may come as a surprise that business people in Mogadishu, the wrecked and lawless capital, are begging for a government. They would love to be taxed and would gladly let politicians meddle at least a bit in their affairs. If everyone is willing to pay for protection services, whats stopping them? Further, its a bit fishy to describe a group of warlords who use violent thugs to exact tribute as the absence of government, since a government is, among other things, a group of warlords who use violent thugs to exact tribute. (I know, I know, the common argument against anarchy is that it would entail the situation of warrior bands, and that I seem to be using a definitional trick myself  but this articles already way too long. All I shall mention further on the Somalia example is this: Even if it were the case that the Somalia situation can happen when we overthrow "government," this alone would prove nothing. I can just as well point to Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and Pol Potian Cambodia as examples of government gone bad. Take your pick.) But the best comes from a recent haughty piece by that oh-so-clever Paulina Borsook, who first quotes from her book, Cyberselfish: Quiz: where would you want to do business in 2000? In Russia where theres no regulation, no central government, no rule of law; or in Northern California where the roads are mostly well-paved and well-patrolled and trucks and airplanes are safer than not...where people mostly dont have to pay protection money, and the majority of law-enforcement personnel are not terribly corrupt or brutal? This is classic. Now Russia is cited as an example of pure capitalism? As a land of no central government?? Give me a break. Borsook destroys her own argument by saying the law enforcement personnel are not terribly corrupt or brutal. (We overlook what a silly defense indeed it is to say, "The majority of people under my proposed system will not be terribly corrupt or brutal.") By this she is undoubtedly referring to the fact that relatively more police officers in Russia are corrupt and brutal. Well then, were not dealing with anarchy, are we, Ms. Borsook? (Oh yeah: People in California do pay protection money: They call it T-A-X-E-S.) Borsook then continues: I will instead mention a recent nasty epidemic of food-poisoning that just erupted at a Mexican restaurant in San Mateo county....Turns out the restaurant hadnt been inspected in more than a year because  surprise!  it turns out budget cuts made it impossible to hire enough health inspectors. But hey, government is the Great Satan and we all believe in self-regulation and who needs taxes? Again, I feel silly even pointing this out, but this sort of argument is made over and over. Do you see what Borsook is trying to pull here? She is ridiculing those who think the government does a bad job regulating private industry. To demonstrate their error, she cites an example of government doing a bad job regulating private industry. Like I said, you hear this sort of argument anytime chaos erupts. So Bob, youre opposed to government control, eh? Try telling that to the peasants in Colombia! Ho ho, Bob, youre for anarchy, eh? Why dont you move to the Gaza Strip? The Colombian case is exactly the same as Borsooks Mexican restaurant. The Colombian government taxes its citizens in order to provide police and legal services, and it fails miserably. We must never confuse governments impotence with governments absence. And whatever else you want to call it  i.e. unwarranted oppression or legitimate defense of settlers  you certainly cannot describe government soldiers shooting children as anarchy. Are certain regions in chaos? Sure. In anarchy? I wish. December 1, 2000 Bob Murphy is a graduate student in New York City. Back to LewRockwell.com Home Page --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Dec 4 19:00:23 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 21:00:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Computer logs In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73F9@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > It is possible for you to receive a freeze order that will compel you > to maintain referenced records. These orders (generally received prior to a > pending subpoena) can be rather general, so this generally serves the > purpose of preventing you from going on a shred/rm/wipe/degauss spree before > the authorities get what they want from you. However, I do know of at least > one case where someone challenged such a document on the basis that it was > obtuse. Can't cite off the top of my head, though. If you would like to see > some copies of documents that are generally used by feds to accomplish these > goals, let me know. I will see if I can neuter some for reference purposes. > > ok, Actually it's not. It completely misrepresents the initial statement that law in the US requires logs to be kept. It doesn't. A court may order it but that's another matter all together. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 4 18:04:09 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 21:04:09 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001204114947.01a38a60@idiom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001204082254.007c76b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001204174904.007d29c0@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:49 AM 12/4/00 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >That's legitimate, though it often leads to gray-market rules >about smuggling stuff. >Many of the Chinese-printed textbooks I saw had covers >indicating that they were cookbooks, etc., to conceal that >they were pirate editions. > Hilarious. I might have offered to buy a K & R disguised as a chinese cookbook. From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 4 18:14:42 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 21:14:42 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <090825D1E60BD311B8390090276D5C4965DDA1@galileo.luminousnet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:00 PM 12/4/00 -0500, Ernest Hua wrote: > >http://www0.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/internet/docs/70519 This just about sums it up: Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said the pact could force police in the United States to conduct searches under rules established by treaty ''that don't respect the limits of police powers imposed by the U.S. Constitution.'' http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001204/wr/crime_tech_dc_1.html From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Dec 4 21:35:11 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 21:35:11 -0800 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <200012040614.BAA01737@cypherspace.org> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001129090722.0206f4a8@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001204205750.01d5c1a8@shell11.ba.best.com> -- James A. Donald: > > There have been many attempts at ecash, but I am not aware of any > > products involving useful, spendable, convenient, anonymous ecash > > targeted at that or similar markets [immoral or illegal]. The > > only really usable anonymous ecash was that of the Mark Twain > > bank, which crippled its cash to prevent it from being used by > > that market. At 01:14 AM 12/4/2000 -0500, Adam Back wrote: > I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application was > MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related to > pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for > providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. Payee traceability made it possible to close accounts related to pornography. Ecash is not truly cash like if the issuer can prevent it from being used by tax evaders, child pornographers, money launderers and terrorists. > I'd have thought the thing to do was put an ecash client in Mozilla > and work on getting it into netscape. Plus download plugins for > Internet Explorer. Internet explorer already has the necessary hooks. If we put the ecash wallet into an active X control then when the user navigates to a ecash page, the user will see the usual warning "Do you trust code signed by so and so". If he clicks yes, the code will be downloaded to the client and installed behind the scenes, and he will never see that warning again, unless he encounters a page with an updated version of the ecash control. > So whoever develops enough clue, capability and interest in making > money to do this someday needs to think about making it work with > existing credit card sites. The html code on the thumbnail page where one clicks on a porno link will need to be rewritten to support ecash. If the porno page server is using IIS, the server will need an ISAPI extension to handle URL's containing ecash payments. Apache has a similar extension mechanism, but I have never written an extension for an Apache server. The page that has for-pay links does not need anything unusual about its server, or about the client's Internet explorer, but the server that serves links containing ecoins in their urls will need an extension, similar to extensions I have written before. > Try to make it as painless and instant as possible to buy ecash. Unfortunately, if ecash is truly untraceable, you cannot give people their ecash until their payment clears, which means you cannot let them pay by credit card. They would be able to pay by e-gold, Paypal, paper cheque or wire transfer. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG x0aQgxEwqS2LNXHW/WBr5lXjkd0JE6+AaYOr2dkP 474TkCMxTMOHpLrXcZYopVPpq36AognlIJ/uEvK0D From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:21:54 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:21:54 -0500 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050321.WAA09301@domains.invweb.net> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 4 21:16:11 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 00:16:11 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 9:14 PM -0500 12/4/00, David Honig wrote: >At 03:00 PM 12/4/00 -0500, Ernest Hua wrote: >> >>http://www0.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/internet/docs/70519 > >This just about sums it up: > >Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil > Liberties Union, said the pact could force police in the > United States to conduct searches under rules established > by treaty ''that don't respect the limits of police powers > imposed by the U.S. Constitution.'' > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001204/wr/crime_tech_dc_1.html > This is old news to followers of the New World Order, the Blue Helmets, and the Zionist Occupation Government. Barry S. is reacting quickly to the changing ground truth of the election: the civil liberties groups used to avoid such implications of the NWO, but now that Republicans are about to take over, the ACLU will likely soon be talking about black helicopters and re-education camps being built to house the political prisoners. I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ngps at post1.com Mon Dec 4 08:47:47 2000 From: ngps at post1.com (Ng Pheng Siong) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 00:47:47 +0800 Subject: [Announce] M2Crypto 0.05p1 and Win32 binaries Message-ID: <20001205004747.D805@madcap.dyndns.org> Hello, M2Crypto 0.05p1 is now available, in source and Win32 binary packages. M2Crypto is a Python interface to OpenSSL's crypto, SSL and S/MIME functionality. Get it here: http://www.post1.com/home/ngps/m2 As usual, feedback is welcome. -- Ng Pheng Siong * http://www.post1.com/home/ngps From petro at bounty.org Tue Dec 5 01:41:05 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:41:05 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mr. May: > >(And then there's Riad Wahby, whose signed messages are unopenable >by Eudora Pro. He is doing _something_ which makes my very-common >mailer choke on his messages. Not my problem, as his messages then >get deleted by me unread. Again, standard ASCII is the lingua franca >which avoids this problem.) He's apparently using GPG, and he has been told about this. He doesn't seem to care. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 01:59:36 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 04:59:36 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012050959.EAA16077@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dwarf4you.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 02:11:12 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:11:12 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BEC@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Dec 5 02:19:43 2000 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:19:43 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Message-ID: Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 02:25:44 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:25:44 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012051025.FAA18767@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dwarf4you.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 02:40:17 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:40:17 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BEE@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mohenry at pilot.infi.net Tue Dec 5 02:49:58 2000 From: mohenry at pilot.infi.net (Henry J. Wakefield) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 05:49:58 -0500 Subject: pornography Message-ID: <3A2CC856.ECE369DC@pilot.infi.net> can you please send me a copy of the encrypted version of this mail. i want to reveiw it and find out who made it or if it is someone i think might have done it pls send it to me thank you. please email me at folgore at infi.net From PAul at toad.com Tue Dec 5 06:29:39 2000 From: PAul at toad.com (PAul at toad.com) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 06:29:39 Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help Message-ID: <645.509661.638061@Dell> Ritual Satanic Ritual Abuse in Denver Need Help HI and Prrraise the Lord: My wife Rev. Helen ( revhelen at tds.net ) got the following e mail message. I didn't know what to do with it. Maybe you know someone that can check this out or pass it on to someone in the Denver area. I sent it to Marilyn Hickey's ministry as she is in Denver. Thanks Rev. Paul at The SPRIG http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings/ 423-496-1114 or 423-496-1777 Turtletown Tennesee Subject: ritual abuse > I am a victim of satanic torture and mind control requesting prayer on one > of the locations where I was abused and used for pornagraphy. It is > Denver's Domestic Violence Shelter @940 E 17th Ave. Very influential > citizens are involved they used their planes to fly us out of Denver to be > exploited for vile sex. This shelter is still operating in the old mortuary > building. > > Praise God I was delivered! Other victims need help. I couldn't find the sender, this is what I got when checking out sender Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (sp28fe.nerdc.ufl.edu [128.227.128.108]) by kodos.svc.tds.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09953 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:33:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from cows1.ufl.edu (lwa-246.uflib.ufl.edu [128.227.238.246]) by smtp.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/2.2.1) with SMTP id OAA124208 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:33:52 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001112142609.006877ec> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:26:09 -0500 To: revhelen at tds.net Subject: ritual abuse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 0ddb519ebc9a52022e4bcc338973ddc8 ------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- SOME CHRISTIAN THINGS OF INTEREST WATCH THE CHURCH CHANNEL LIVE TV ON YOUR COMPUTER CLICK ON http://www.churchchannel.org/ OR http://media.churchchannel.org:8080/ramgen/encoder/church.rm You will need RealPlayer to watch. The Church Channel is a multi-denominational religious network that will feature church service programs 24 hours per day, 7 days a week Read and Listen to the Bible at the same time, click on http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html or http://www.talkingbible.com/ For a Bible Word and Phrase Study click on http://www.branchministry.net/wordstudy/index.html PUT GOD FIRST when you start your web browsing. Use a Christian Home Page. click on http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings. Are you saved, there is nothing more important to do in the world then to ask God into your life. Don't burn in Hell because you didn't say a short prayer. Click on http://www.branchministry.net/salvation/ The Bible in different languages Click on http://www.talkingbible.com/multilingual.html If you need a Prayer answered right now, call Rev. Helen at 423-496-1777. Prayer Works From islamguemey at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 03:57:55 2000 From: islamguemey at earthlink.net (Islam M. Guemey) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 06:57:55 -0500 Subject: persuasive speeches References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C73F8@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: <003601c05eb2$9b411fe0$03000004@moonshine> RE: persuasive speechesHello, for what it's worth, you may plagiarize from here: IMHO, computer-related issues that involve an ethical dilemma are worthy of discussion among laymen and computer specialists alike. Particularly such discussions among computer-related specialists should be pursued because computer applications are almost ubiquitous in our urban lives (and will continue to pervade our environment, even as part of our clothes, and our very bodies.) So yeah ethics should be important for computer specialists, students and teachers. Another field that has dropped its interest in the ethical questions arising from its practice, ie, the mass media, has reached untold lows in its complete disregard for any responsible behavior towards its end users. We don't want to see this happen in the field of computer science and its applications. At worst, these ethical discussions can't hurt. Now regarding the question of downloads, I've missed the thread, but I wish to express that the intellectual property issue is mostly a hoax, and a falacious concept that serves only to maximize the profits of the entertainment industries. Many aesthetes and philosophers (Popper, Foucault, Barthes, Jung, Althussere &c.) have pointed out that ideas (which translate into popular culture) arise from clichés, archetypes and memes that are shared throughout our culture, and have been circulating and roaming around our collective cultural consciousness for centuries. These ideas are simply the recycled riffs, proverbs, motifs, themes, folk tales and poetry, melodies, hopes and fear, and indeed the entirety of human experience since the beginning of history. Moreover, I also would like to note that once you issue a song or a poem, it is no longer yours. It is released into popular consciousness. The notion of royalties is laughable really. As to the ethics of intellectual property, well it is again my personal opinion that popular artists are overrated, their wages are overrated (especially now that art and culture have been on the decline in quality for over two decades,) and the videos, books, dvds, and cds are overpriced by the entertainment industry. I believe that true artists do wish that their art be shared by all, and for free. A musician's living would be more rightfully earned from live gigs, session work wages, contracts with distributors etc. But this concept of royalties is a cheat at best. Having said all this, I encourage others to use Napster (while it is still free,) and to use Gnutella when Napster caves in to corporate lustre. ----- Original Message ----- From: Carskadden, Rush To: cypherpunks at toad.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 6:44 PM Subject: RE: persuasive speeches How about a business case for relaxing intellectual property regulations? If you could put together a good persuasive speech on that one, I would like to see it. Or you could do a persuasive speech on the economic advantages of more lenient cryptographic export restrictions. Or you could do what I did when I had that project in school (and this is my personal recommendation) - blow off class to go hang out in the gallery of the House, get there and remember it's tourist season and they are rotating people through in five minute intervals, and decide to go downtown and get drunk. I then had to deliver a persuasive speech the next day on why it was more important to skip class and get drunk than to do assignments, which didn't impress anyone and earned me a failure on the assignment. Or you could subscribe to the speech writing mailing list (I'm sure there is one) and ask them. -----Original Message----- From: Lockinator21 at aol.com [mailto:Lockinator21 at aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 4:51 PM To: cypherpunks at toad.com Cc: pitbull32 at excite.com Subject: persuasive speeches I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6365 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ecommercenow at mantramail.com Tue Dec 5 07:07:22 2000 From: ecommercenow at mantramail.com (eCommerce Solutions) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:07:22 -0800 Subject: Start Accepting Credit Cards Online Message-ID: <200012051509.HAA23038@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6787 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 05:18:12 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:11:12 -0500 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: CDR: Antigen found W32/Hybris at m virus Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 678 bytes Desc: URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 05:18:29 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:18:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 05:19:43 -0500 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: CDR: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 05:26:08 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:26:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Quantum Dot advance on /. Message-ID: http://slashdot.org ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 05:36:57 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 07:36:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: There is an article over on Drudge's site. The quote with respect to 5 year retention was supposedly made by the US Justice Dept. Wonder what they were refering too... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 05:32:57 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:32:57 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012051332.IAA05286@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: midgets.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Somebody Tue Dec 5 08:47:20 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:47:20 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: Message-ID: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to reduce the effective security of a system. "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/5/00, BNA Highlights wrote: > > > KEYSTROKE MONITORING AND THE SOPRANOS > > A federal gambling case against the son of a New Jersey mob > > boss may provide the courts with the opportunity to weigh in > > on the privacy issues surrounding keystroke monitoring. The > > FBI's surveillance included the use of such technology to > > reproduce every stroke entered on a computer. The defense > > plans to challenge the FBI's surveillance methods at > > pre-trial defense motion. > > http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 05:50:31 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 08:50:31 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322BF2@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 676 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 06:04:03 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:04:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/5/00, BNA Highlights wrote: > KEYSTROKE MONITORING AND THE SOPRANOS > A federal gambling case against the son of a New Jersey mob > boss may provide the courts with the opportunity to weigh in > on the privacy issues surrounding keystroke monitoring. The > FBI's surveillance included the use of such technology to > reproduce every stroke entered on a computer. The defense > plans to challenge the FBI's surveillance methods at > pre-trial defense motion. > http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jya at pipeline.com Tue Dec 5 06:09:01 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:09:01 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> Here's the source for the data preservation requirement: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/COEFAQs.htm Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United States for nearly five years. 18 U.S.C. 2703(f) requires an electronic communications service provider to "take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process" upon "the request of a governmental entity." This applies in practice only to reasonably small amounts of specified data identified as relevant to a particular case where the service provider already has control over that data. Similarly, as with traditional subpoena powers, issuance of an order to an individual or corporation to produce specified data during the course of an investigation carries with it an obligation not to delete or destroy information falling within the scope of that order when that information is in the persons possession or control. ----- >From the US Code via GPO Access: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html 18 USC 2703(f) (f) Requirement To Preserve Evidence.-- (1) In general.--A provider of wire or electronic communication services or a remote computing service, upon the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process. (2) Period of retention.--Records referred to in paragraph (1) shall be retained for a period of 90 days, which shall be extended for an additional 90-day period upon a renewed request by the governmental entity. ----- From CoNurse at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 09:26:27 2000 From: CoNurse at earthlink.net (Company Nurse) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:26:27 -0800 Subject: I Need Your Help :) Message-ID: I am currently doing market research for a client -- Company Nurse(r). They reduce your worker's compensation Insurance cost. I was interested in finding out what advantages you see for your company to use Company Nurse. I have included some basis information for your review. I would really appreciate your input :) patricia at sellingwithtechnology.com or http://www.companynurse.com/index/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Just like having your own nurse on site What the Company Nurse(r) Does!!! * Eliminates 1/3 of workers' compensation claims * Decreases the number of claims incurring disability costs by 2/3 * Decreases emergency room referrals by 80% What the Company Nurse(r) provides: Telephonic triage and first aid advice to injured employee's helps to eliminate 1/3 of potential claims. Referral to appropriate level of medical care decreases emergency room referrals by 80%. Completion of claim forms, and documentation for employers and claims administrators within minutes of the injury. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Again thank you for your Help. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 5 09:37:42 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:37:42 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001205093742.01c1f460@idiom.com> At 01:41 AM 12/5/00 -0800, petro wrote: >Mr. May: >>(And then there's Riad Wahby, whose signed messages are unopenable >>by Eudora Pro. He is doing _something_ which makes my very-common >>mailer choke on his messages. Not my problem, as his messages then >>get deleted by me unread. Again, standard ASCII is the lingua franca >>which avoids this problem.) > > He's apparently using GPG, and he has been told about this. > He doesn't seem to care. You're incorrect. The problem isn't GPG, it's the Mutt mailer. Riad's using 1.2.5i, which almost did the right thing, and he went to the trouble of hacking the program to fix it. So now his messages are plaintext GPG or PGP in the message body, which is what they should be. I'm not sure if hacking was necessary - it looks like RGB on the linux-ipsec mailing list is getting the same effect, (though perhaps he also hacked the source.) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From newsletter at easywinning.com Tue Dec 5 05:38:31 2000 From: newsletter at easywinning.com (newsletter at easywinning.com) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:38:31 -0400 Subject: THE OFFICIAL EASYWINNING.COM WEEKLY NEWSLETTER - DECEMBER 4, 2000 Message-ID: <200012051337.FAA21465@toad.com> The Official EasyWinning.com Weekly Newsletter! THIS IS A MAJOR NEWSFLASH!!!!!!!! We just recently re-vamped our homepage. Come and check out what's new, hot and exciting!!! http://www.easywinning.com/eTags.asp?linkid=388&NID=2881405 Sponsor site of the week -Half.com! Redeem your $5 Coupon! Here's a great shopping site for the holidays. 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Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9088 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 5 09:38:47 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:38:47 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:41 AM -0800 12/5/00, petro wrote: >Mr. May: > >> >>(And then there's Riad Wahby, whose signed messages are unopenable >>by Eudora Pro. He is doing _something_ which makes my very-common >>mailer choke on his messages. Not my problem, as his messages then >>get deleted by me unread. Again, standard ASCII is the lingua >>franca which avoids this problem.) > > He's apparently using GPG, and he has been told about this. > > He doesn't seem to care. I disagree. Riad has actually been a major participant in this discussion. He even fixed the recent problem with his body text being an attachment instead of inline. That's the MIME/mutt issue, at least. As to GPG vs. PGP, I wouldn't know about this, as I never try to check signatures. Aren't they inoperable anyway? --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 06:38:54 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:38:54 -0500 Subject: New anti-gun legislation in Congress Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001205093830.021635f0@mail.well.com> today: News conference to announce that the proposed Gun Show Accountability Act will be introduced in the next Congress. Participants: Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., and Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I.= Location: SC-6 U.S. Capitol. 11:30 a.m. Contact: Greg McCarthy, 202-224-3326, or Alex Formuzis, 202-224-4744 From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 07:09:25 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:09:25 -0500 Subject: ip: Chaos Theory Message-ID: A nice rant, below, from a fellow anarcho-capitalist lapsed conservative apparently Hillsdale College grad. [I swear, folks, I *tried* snipping this to relevant bits. :-). I mean, there's a URL in it and all, and, admittedly, he's preaching to the choir around here, but this is nicely done that I couldn't bring myself to premasticate it for cypherpunk consumption.] Cheers, RAH --- begin forwarded text From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 07:18:56 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:18:56 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 12:16:11AM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001205104254.A17455@cluebot.com> Nah. Barry has been at the ACLU for 30 yrs. He's lived through the Republican NWO of Reagan and Bush. When Clinton took over, the ACLU was giddy, thinking they had a friend in the White House. Whoops. -Declan On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 12:16:11AM -0500, Tim May wrote: > This is old news to followers of the New World Order, the Blue > Helmets, and the Zionist Occupation Government. > > Barry S. is reacting quickly to the changing ground truth of the > election: the civil liberties groups used to avoid such implications > of the NWO, but now that Republicans are about to take over, the ACLU > will likely soon be talking about black helicopters and re-education > camps being built to house the political prisoners. > > I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 07:26:28 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:26:28 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! In-Reply-To: <200012050959.EAA16077@domains.invweb.net>; from hahaha@sexyfun.net on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:59:36AM -0500 References: <200012050959.EAA16077@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <20001205105042.B17455@cluebot.com> This is a nasty little worm. Background: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01542.html On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:59:36AM -0500, Hahaha wrote: > Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and > polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a > *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven > Dwarfs enter... > From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Dec 5 07:33:29 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:33:29 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A2D0A6A.85AA5FB0@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> David Honig wrote: > This just about sums it up: > > Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil > Liberties Union, said the pact could force police in the > United States to conduct searches under rules established > by treaty ''that don't respect the limits of police powers > imposed by the U.S. Constitution.'' And guess what? The UK government says they need to do this because the US (among others) wants them to. Over the weekend proposals to enforce data retention for 7 years were leaked to newspapers & civil liberties groups here in Britain. Just in time for the annual Big Brother Awards ( http://www.privacyinternational.org/bigbrother/ :-) Your very own John Young has made the offending document available at http://cryptome.org/ncis-carnivore.htm Of course it isn't official government policy. Oh no, just some paper put out by a junior official. All very deniable. It is so *very* offensive that even the Home Secretary will be able to to say that he doesn't accept it - and then come out with something that, while not quite that bad is still a lot worse than what we have now. And they will say that our "European partners" want us to have such laws. And in Germany they will say that the British want it... and in France they will say that all of civilisation wants it...so a whole load of diplomats will get together & make some treaty, more or less dictated to them by the military. of course the universal opinion here is that it is actually the Americans - they pull the strings at GCHQ & this sort of policy in the UK nearly always comes straight out of GCHQ. Meanwhile, back in the corridors of power, the Data Protection law (which tends to be administered by well-meaning mild lefties, as opposed to the military who may be well-meaning but are almost by definition right-wing authoritarians) now seems to require that you make personal data, including logs, available to people who can be identified from them. How about having to not only keep your Apache logs for 7 years but also be prepared to search them at the request of anyone who might have browsed your website? Ken The vile paper states: 3.2 INTERNATIONAL DIMENSION 3.2.1. We have strong partnerships with overseas colleagues and an expectation exists that the UK will take a bold and strategic position on data retention in order to continue to meet both domestic and international obligations on organised crime. Elsewhere in Europe and in the G8, countries are also concerned about the lack of clarity in law and are advancing legislation to meet the needs of their Agencies. In particular, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Germany and the US have taken steps towards a statutory framework. 3.2.2. A degree of international agreement on standards is important. For example, in relation to telephone data, competition in the market has led to "least cost routing". This involves calls being sent by the cheapest route, taking advantage of reduced off-peak rates elsewhere in the world. It has even become more economical to briefly route domestic UK calls overseas. Similarly, in the case of computer viruses, these can be transmitted around the world across any number of communications networks and ISP servers. Progress towards standardisation is therefore important both for domestic and international law enforcement activity. 3.2.3 CSPs consider it is important to harmonise UK legislation with regulatory regimes elsewhere. If requirements are more onerous in the UK than in other EU Member States, then the natural reaction will be to relocate to the most favourable regime. The nascent E-Commerce knowledge industries are highly mobile and the Industry would anticipate an immediate response from UK CSPs to unfavourable conditions here. CSPs are actively consulting their international counterparts on this subject. ISPs in particular would support adopting an international legislative framework provided it was on the basis of a level playing field and would actively work on the formulation of an "Industry-wide Code of Practice" to achieve that objective. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Dec 5 07:35:10 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:35:10 -0500 Subject: STAINLESS STEEL PIPES AND TUBES FOR REFINERIE INDUSTRIES In-Reply-To: <013001c05eb0$f77d1a40$0200a8c0@suraj3> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001205072948.007ee790@pop.sprynet.com> At 06:39 AM 12/5/00 -0500, Ashok Shah wrote: > REFINERIE INDUSTRIES Manager- Procurement / Purchase / Buyers >Department Dear Sir, > > leading Producers / Manufacturers / Exporters of STAINLESS STEEL PIPE / >TUBE SEAMLESS / WELDED,having our works near Ahmedabad-in INDIA. We need pipes that are resistant to uranium hexafluoride. Lots and lots of pipes. Are yours? Also can you machine beryllium? From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 11:18:53 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:18:53 -0800 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net>; from mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:40:08PM -0000 References: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:40:08PM -0000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: > Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of MTB, > whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify himself to the > bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of business, etc. This is > SOP for other payment systems like credit cards. > > It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their merchants. > No payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable cash system would > have been equally amenable to merchant screening. Any vendor has the > right to control whom it does business with, and MTB chose to exercise > its discretion in this way. I don't know if MTB had a lot of discretion - banks are subject to the federal "know your customer" regulations. You can't get depositor anonymity from a bank chartered in the US, at least not without at least one level of corporate indirection (e.g., the bank "knows its customer" who is a domestic or foreign closely-held corp, who does the bidding of its unidentified-to-the-bank-and-FINCEN shareholders). > The Texas couple in the news recently made a different choice and > decided to provide payment services for child pornographers, as James > Donald recommends. Now MTB is still in business (after merging with > MTL and then FSR) and the Texans are in jail. Which made a better choice? Sounds like the Texans knew too much about their customers - if they operated a content-neutral service which had many, many customers, one of whom happened to be a child-porn service, they'd be doing fine, especially if they shut off the child porn people if/when notified by law enforcement of the activity. Does the FBI shut down AOL and Earthlink when their subscribers traffic in child porn? -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:25:20 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:25:20 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050323.TAA09644@cyberpass.net> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:25:23 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:25:23 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050326.VAA08892@einstein.ssz.com> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:25:32 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:25:32 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050321.TAA10974@toad.com> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:25:36 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:25:36 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050321.WAA04172@waste.minder.net> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn Mon Dec 4 19:26:00 2000 From: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn (jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:26:00 +0800 Subject: LOCKS AND HARDWARE. Message-ID: <200012050322.WAA08932@mail.virtual-estates.net> Dear Sirs: We are very glad to learn that you are interested in the padlocks. As we are locks factory ,So we take this opportunity to introduce ourselves to you so that we can establish business relationship in this line in the future. At present, we are manufactory specializing in producing all kinds of type of padlocks, there are 8 varieties with 55 specs in products series which well be sold to Europe, Middle-east, South America, Southeast Asia etc. Special specifications may be made to order according to the customer's design and nominated brand, joint operating and compensation trade are welcome. Locks are our major products. Our city, it lies on the " Chinese Hardware City" (Market), So we can also assist purchase some other things. For example: Shovel ; Sewing machines ;Scooter;Cutting tools; Power Tools; Charcoal ; Fluorescent tubes ; Incandescent camps ; Bamboo products ; Door locks, ect. We looking forward to your reply. Best Regard. Zhu Jian-jin for JINNING LOCK FACTORY OF CHINA E-mail: jysjj at mail.lsptt.zj.cn URL: www.china-padlock.com. TEL: +86 578 3158898 FAX: +86 578 3157775 From honig at sprynet.com Tue Dec 5 08:30:17 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:30:17 -0500 Subject: the difficulties with thought control Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001205082904.007db550@pop.sprynet.com> BERLIN (Reuters) - Organizers of a Web site launched on Tuesday aimed at offering tips on how to combat racist and neo-Nazi violence in Germany said it had attracted hundreds of visitors within hours of going live. ... The site, www.verfassungsschutzgegenrechtsextremismus.de, was launched following huge public demand for information on Germany's far-right problem and how to combat it, Hesse said. 1. Gotta love those german urls... 2. This url contains the substring "sex" and I bet some censored folks won't be able to get to it... in addition the site contains 'hate words' if the url slipped through.. From myplay.x5fho0c.0 at members.myplay.com Tue Dec 5 12:13:47 2000 From: myplay.x5fho0c.0 at members.myplay.com (myplay) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 12:13:47 PST Subject: Welcome to myplay! Message-ID: <200012052013.MAA13705@c1m1.postdirect.com> Welcome to myplay, Joe! Now that you've opened a free myplay Locker, you can listen to your music anytime, anywhere. Your Locker lets you store, organize, share, and play your digital music collection anywhere you connect to the web -- it's easy, it's powerful, and it's free. So start now and make the most of all that myplay has to offer. ==PLAYERS=================================================== Get a player, if you don't have one yet. It's easy to do, and there are many different free players available online. 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Doug Camplejohn & David Pakman myplay co-founders == FREE MUSIC FROM MYPLAY=============================== Copy these tracks to your Locker and listen as long as you like. 1.Jimmy Page & The Black Crowes, "Oh Well" Live at the Greek! Rock 'n' roll doesn't get any more exciting than this. http://p01.com/t.d?tkIg7oiV=myplay/mp/locker/addTrack.jsp_0tid=162708&tid=162711 2.Confrontation Camp, "Brake the Law" Objects in the Mirror are Closer than They Appear A powerful blend of metal and rap that'll make you think. http://p01.com/t.d?9kIg7oiV=myplay/mp/locker/addTrack.jsp_0tid=2988714&tid=2989434 3.311, "Large in the Margin" Soundsystem Rap and rock fusion straight out of Omaha. http://p01.com/t.d?7EIg7oiV=myplay/mp/locker/addTrack.jsp_0tid=3012852&tid=3012732 ----------------------------------------------------- You've received this message because you're registered with myplay. If you'd rather not receive our e-mails, click on the link below, or copy and paste it into your browser: http://p01.com/t.d?_kIg7oiV=myplay/mp/settings/ext/unsubscribe.jsp_0xemail=cypherpunks at ssz.com&xuvk=4331769&xuvm=10 If you have received this message in error and did not sign up for a myplay Locker, please send an e-mail to customercare at myplay.com and we'll take care of it. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 23568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Tue Dec 5 10:25:11 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:25:11 -0600 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C740B@cobra.netsolve.net> Thanks for the cite, I was just about to stir it up. Anyone still want to see an example order? ok, Rush -----Original Message----- From: John Young [mailto:jya at pipeline.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:09 AM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: About 5yr. log retention Here's the source for the data preservation requirement: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/COEFAQs.htm Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United States for nearly five years. 18 U.S.C. 2703(f) requires an electronic communications service provider to "take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process" upon "the request of a governmental entity." This applies in practice only to reasonably small amounts of specified data identified as relevant to a particular case where the service provider already has control over that data. Similarly, as with traditional subpoena powers, issuance of an order to an individual or corporation to produce specified data during the course of an investigation carries with it an obligation not to delete or destroy information falling within the scope of that order when that information is in the person's possession or control. ----- >From the US Code via GPO Access: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html 18 USC 2703(f) (f) Requirement To Preserve Evidence.-- (1) In general.--A provider of wire or electronic communication services or a remote computing service, upon the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process. (2) Period of retention.--Records referred to in paragraph (1) shall be retained for a period of 90 days, which shall be extended for an additional 90-day period upon a renewed request by the governmental entity. ----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3569 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Dec 5 09:36:57 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:36:57 -0500 Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help References: <645.509661.638061@Dell> Message-ID: <3A2D283E.BD82D912@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Too cool! This guy even got himself an account at toad.com? Some of this spam is getting really interesting, like the wolf guy. Makes me feel sane -- sort of. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver at arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us From islamguemey at earthlink.net Tue Dec 5 10:26:53 2000 From: islamguemey at earthlink.net (Islam M. Guemey) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:26:53 -0500 Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help References: <645.509661.638061@Dell> Message-ID: <002101c05ee8$f2266500$03000004@moonshine> Sounds like Stephen King's 'The Plant" All right. Question: What has this got to do with a hacking mailing list? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:29 AM Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help > Ritual Satanic Ritual Abuse in Denver Need Help > > HI and Prrraise the Lord: > > My wife Rev. Helen ( revhelen at tds.net ) got the following e mail > message. I didn't know what to do with it. Maybe you know > someone that can check this out or pass it on to someone in the > Denver area. I sent it to Marilyn Hickey's ministry as she is in > Denver. > > Thanks Rev. Paul at The SPRIG > http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings/ > 423-496-1114 or 423-496-1777 Turtletown Tennesee > > Subject: ritual abuse > > > I am a victim of satanic torture and mind control requesting > prayer on one > > of the locations where I was abused and used for pornagraphy. It > is > > Denver's Domestic Violence Shelter @940 E 17th Ave. Very > influential > > citizens are involved they used their planes to fly us out of > Denver to be > > exploited for vile sex. This shelter is still operating in the > old > mortuary > > building. > > > > Praise God I was delivered! Other victims need help. > > > I couldn't find the sender, this is what I got when checking out > sender > > Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (sp28fe.nerdc.ufl.edu > [128.227.128.108]) > by kodos.svc.tds.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09953 > for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:33:54 -0600 (CST) > Received: from cows1.ufl.edu (lwa-246.uflib.ufl.edu > [128.227.238.246]) > by smtp.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/2.2.1) with SMTP id OAA124208 > for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:33:52 -0500 > Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001112142609.006877ec> > X-Sender: (Unverified) > X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) > Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:26:09 -0500 > To: revhelen at tds.net > Subject: ritual abuse > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > X-UIDL: 0ddb519ebc9a52022e4bcc338973ddc8 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------------- > > > SOME CHRISTIAN THINGS OF INTEREST > > WATCH THE CHURCH CHANNEL LIVE TV ON YOUR COMPUTER CLICK ON > > http://www.churchchannel.org/ OR > http://media.churchchannel.org:8080/ramgen/encoder/church.rm > > You will need RealPlayer to watch. The Church Channel is a > multi-denominational religious network that will feature church > service programs 24 hours per day, 7 days a week > > Read and Listen to the Bible at the same time, click on > http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html or > http://www.talkingbible.com/ > > For a Bible Word and Phrase Study click on > http://www.branchministry.net/wordstudy/index.html > > PUT GOD FIRST when you start your web browsing. Use a Christian > Home Page. click on http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings. > > Are you saved, there is nothing more important to do in the world > then to ask God into your life. Don't burn in Hell because you > didn't say a short prayer. Click on > http://www.branchministry.net/salvation/ > > The Bible in different languages Click on > http://www.talkingbible.com/multilingual.html > > If you need a Prayer answered right now, call Rev. Helen at > 423-496-1777. Prayer Works > > > > > > > > > > > > From Jon at techtrendsonline.com Tue Dec 5 11:31:49 2000 From: Jon at techtrendsonline.com (Jon at techtrendsonline.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 13:31:49 -0600 Subject: Create a Web site in less than 5 minutes!!! Starting at $9.99 month Message-ID: <36865.563768622683700.16806836@localhost> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 13:55:24 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 13:55:24 -0800 Subject: Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case In-Reply-To: <200012052128.QAA16875@sigma.nrk.com>; from wb8foz@nrk.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:12:37PM -0500 References: <200012052128.QAA16875@sigma.nrk.com> Message-ID: <20001205135524.G3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 04:12:37PM -0500, David Lesher wrote: > > re: the keystroke sniffer: > > http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm > > The FBI application is at: > http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/application.pdf > > The court order is at: > http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/order.pdf I poked around the EPIC site to see if I could find more about that case - didn't find anything, but I did run across a reference to a 9th Circuit opinion of some interest - it seems that some drug cops in Las Vegas were engaging in illegal wiretaps, by modifying pen register hardware so that it facilitated audiotaping without a warrant. One of the cops mentioned this to a colleague, who talked to a supervsor, who broke into one of the other cops' office, found equipment which appeared to be performing an illegal warrantless audio intercept - so he then installed some illegal warrantless video recording equipment, which recorded the first crooked cops' behavior. The video evidence was excluded by the 9th Circuit as having been recorded outside the boundaries of Title III and the Fourth Amendment. It's online at if you care to meditate a little on the old "quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" question; or at 923 F.2d 665 for the old-fashioned. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From smb at research.att.com Tue Dec 5 11:37:44 2000 From: smb at research.att.com (Steven M. Bellovin) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:37:44 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) Message-ID: <20001205193744.3347E35DC2@smb.research.att.com> In message , "R. A. Hettinga" writes: >At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/5/00, BNA Highlights wrote: > > >> KEYSTROKE MONITORING AND THE SOPRANOS >> A federal gambling case against the son of a New Jersey mob >> boss may provide the courts with the opportunity to weigh in >> on the privacy issues surrounding keystroke monitoring. The >> FBI's surveillance included the use of such technology to >> reproduce every stroke entered on a computer. The defense >> plans to challenge the FBI's surveillance methods at >> pre-trial defense motion. >> http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm Very interesting, but what does IBM have to do with the case? Did you mean to type "FBI"? --Steve Bellovin From socio at getyourcasino.com Tue Dec 5 12:39:56 2000 From: socio at getyourcasino.com (socio at getyourcasino.com) Date: 5 Dec 2000 15:39:56 -0500 Subject: Propuesta para alianza estratégica Message-ID: Hola! Recientemente visit� su sitio en Internet, y creo, que tal vez Ud. se encuentre interesado en formar una alianza estrat�gica. Nuestra compa��a es due�a y opera varios casinos en linea, con todas las licencias. Tenemos m�s de 30,000 clientes y 8,500 sitios asociados. La industria de juegos en linea es la m�s explosiva en la red, con cerca de $10 billones proyectados para el ano 2002. 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Ericka Rivera Directora-Latinoam�rica From hhwilliams at juno.com Tue Dec 5 11:56:28 2000 From: hhwilliams at juno.com (hhwilliams at juno.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:56:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: loan guys (120420) Message-ID: < 276284@ 696639> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1598 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wb8foz at nrk.com Tue Dec 5 13:12:37 2000 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:12:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case Message-ID: <200012052128.QAA16875@sigma.nrk.com> re: the keystroke sniffer: http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm The FBI application is at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/application.pdf The court order is at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/order.pdf -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From wb8foz at nrk.com Tue Dec 5 13:12:37 2000 From: wb8foz at nrk.com (David Lesher) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:12:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case Message-ID: <200012052112.QAA16774@sigma.nrk.com> re: the keystroke sniffer: http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/12/04/front_page/JMOB04.htm The FBI application is at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/application.pdf The court order is at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/breakin/order.pdf -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz at nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From forgot at lga2.nytimes.com Tue Dec 5 13:50:48 2000 From: forgot at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:50:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: NYT Account Request Message-ID: <200012052150.QAA13472@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com> You have requested your ID and password for The New York Times on the Web. Please follow the instructions below. If you have any questions or problems, write to forgot at nytimes.com. Please DO NOT REPLY to this message. 1. Please make a note of your subscriber ID: cypherpunks2112 2. Next, to change the password for this account, using your Web browser go to this unique URL: http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=81577694_17290015 This page will allow you to choose a new password. Make sure you have copied the address EXACTLY as it appears here. (If you're getting an "Error" page, the address was probably entered incorrectly. See "Help With Copying and Pasting" at the bottom of this e-mail.) 3. Follow the instructions on the screen to choose a new password. After you have entered a password you will automatically enter our Web site. The New York Times on the Web Customer Service forgot at nytimes.com ******************** Help With Copying and Pasting 1. Using the mouse, highlight the entire Web address, (e.g. http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=81577694_17290015) shown above in step 2. It's essential to highlight the entire address, even if it extends over two lines. 2. Under the Edit menu at the top of your screen, select "Copy". 3. Go into your Web browser (open it if it's not already opened). 4. Click in the "Netsite" or "Address" bar -- the place in your Web browser where it says what Web address you're currently looking at -- and delete the address that's currently there. 5. In the blank "Netsite" or "Address" bar, paste the address by selecting the "Edit" menu at the top of your screen and choosing "Paste". 6. Press Enter. 7. Follow the instructions to choose a new password. ******************** If you did not request your ID and password for your NYT Web registration, someone has mistakenly entered your e-mail address when requesting their password. Please simply ignore this message, or, if you wish, you may go to the address above to select a new password for your account. From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 13:52:22 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:52:22 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From rah at ibuc.com Tue Dec 5 14:01:43 2000 From: rah at ibuc.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:01:43 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:58 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, Somebody wrote: > So what does this have to do with IBM? Oops. Somehow I conflated IBM with FBI? It was merely a typo. Really it was. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... Of course, (if) it turns out that IBM actually *built* a keyboard sniffer, but, that's no surprise, I expect anyone with a code.clue and a paranoid bone in their body knows how... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 14:15:40 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:15:40 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: <20001205193744.3347E35DC2@smb.research.att.com> References: <20001205193744.3347E35DC2@smb.research.att.com> Message-ID: At 2:37 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: > Very interesting, but what does IBM have to do with the case? Did you > mean to type "FBI"? Absolutely. God knows why I did it... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 5 17:16:03 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:16:03 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (dcsb and cryptography and other closed lists removed, for obvious reasons) At 4:52 PM -0500 12/5/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > >Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 08:47:20 -0800 >From: Somebody >To: "R. A. Hettinga" >Subject: Re: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: >BNA'sInternet > Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) > >An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. > >The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the >information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a >side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer >equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to >reduce the effective security of a system. I fully support this comment that the whole issue of "legality" is a "side show." We've known that keyboard sniffers were a major issue for many years. I remember describing the sniffers ("keystroke recorders") which were widely available for Macs in the early 90s. Others cited such recorders for Windows and Unices. We discussed at early CP meetings the issue, with various proposed solutions. (For example, pass phrases stored in rings, pendants, Newtons, Pilots. For example, zero knowledge approaches. For example, reliance on laptops always in physical possession.) Frankly, the PGP community veered off the track toward crapola about standards, escrow, etc., instead of concentrating on the core issues. PGP as text is a solved problem. The rest of the story is to ensure that pass phrases and keys are not black-bagged. Forget fancy GUIs, forget standards...concentrate on the real threat model. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) 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It has nothing to do with a court issuance. There has never been a question in that regard. As I said in a earlier note, destruction of evidence is a crime which is well covered. As soon as you have any reason to believe it's evidence (actually whether a cop or other agent advises you of such or not) it becomes illegal for you to alter or destroy it. Tampering with evidence is a crime and always has been. But back to the point, It's called CALEA. It's one of the requirement when one becomes a 'commen carrier'. It's also worth noting that it applies to network providers who provide 'significant' telephone services through their network (can you say PBX? I thought so). I'd send the actual page but Timmy might have a CVA. There's a reference to the CALEA standard at the bottem of the last URL I sent out. So, what we actually have is the DoJ participating in a strawman, basically saying that since they can require 'commen carriers' to keep logs then extending that to everyone isn't that big of a deal. It actually is. On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > Here's the source for the data preservation requirement: > > > http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/COEFAQs.htm > > Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in > the United States for nearly five years. 18 U.S.C. 2703(f) > requires an electronic communications service provider to > "take all necessary steps to preserve records and other > evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court > order or other process" upon "the request of a governmental > entity." This applies in practice only to reasonably small > amounts of specified data identified as relevant to a > particular case where the service provider already has > control over that data. Similarly, as with traditional > subpoena powers, issuance of an order to an individual or > corporation to produce specified data during the course of > an investigation carries with it an obligation not to delete > or destroy information falling within the scope of that > order when that information is in the person�s possession or > control. > > ----- > > >From the US Code via GPO Access: > > > http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html > > 18 USC 2703(f) > > (f) Requirement To Preserve Evidence.-- > (1) In general.--A provider of wire or electronic > communication services or a remote computing service, upon > the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary > steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession > pending the issuance of a court order or other process. > (2) Period of retention.--Records referred to in paragraph > (1) shall be retained for a period of 90 days, which shall be > extended for an additional 90-day period upon a renewed request > by the governmental entity. > > ----- > ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 15:49:47 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 17:49:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C740B@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > Thanks for the cite, I was just about to stir it up. Anyone still want to > see an example order? Except it isn't the correct one. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Dec 5 18:06:41 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:06:41 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: <3A2D9F31.1AA0E9DD@lsil.com> Jim Choate wrote : >On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > >> But that is trivial compared to your claim that you decide what is evidence >> and that it then becomes illegal to alter or destroy it. That appears to be >> playing cop without the authority. > >No John, that is not my claim. You wish it were I bet. You need to adjust >your meds again. > >The destruction of property or materials which are evidence of a crime is >itself a crime if done intentionally to cover up that crime. > To prove destruction of evidence you must prove that it existed in a form that was retrievable ( good luck ) and then that its destruction was done by a person who was aware of the crime ( not always so in the networking world ) for the purpose of concealing the crime( burden of proof on you ). I clean disk space randomly and not according to any schedule. Erase away, but not on the evil MS platform. Mike The whole idea that a government can assert some sort of eminent domain over all communications is offensive beyond words. From allyn at well.com Tue Dec 5 18:16:04 2000 From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:16:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: Use PGP. If you want to blab without being traced, go to the local public library or netcafe. Some airports now have netcafe's that accept cash without ID. As a sysadmin, I often have to troubleshoot mail. That exposes me to email. I try only to look at headers and ignore bodies, but I am still exposed. I would much prefer to see PGP bodies. Mark From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 16:28:39 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:28:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > The citation was given as the basis of the news story. And it shows that > there is no five year retention requirement, only that the law is five years > old. What law? Actually if you go look at the bottem of that news piece you'll find a direct reference to CALEA (which I might add says nothing about log retention for 'commen carrier' or otherwise). I'd still like somebody to explain what law was in reference with respect to requiring log retention for any period, irrespective of how old the law is. Note, this has NOTHING to do with a court order or request from a LEA and at no point in that article was that claimed. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 16:31:52 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:31:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > But that is trivial compared to your claim that you decide what is evidence > and that it then becomes illegal to alter or destroy it. That appears to be > playing cop without the authority. No John, that is not my claim. You wish it were I bet. You need to adjust your meds again. The destruction of property or materials which are evidence of a crime is itself a crime if done intentionally to cover up that crime. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 18:33:04 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:33:04 -0800 Subject: Destruction of evidence In-Reply-To: <3A2D9F31.1AA0E9DD@lsil.com>; from mmotyka@lsil.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:06:41PM -0800 References: <3A2D9F31.1AA0E9DD@lsil.com> Message-ID: <20001205183303.C6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:06:41PM -0800, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > To prove destruction of evidence you must prove that it existed in a > form that was retrievable ( good luck ) and then that its destruction > was done by a person who was aware of the crime ( not always so in the > networking world ) for the purpose of concealing the crime( burden of > proof on you ). I clean disk space randomly and not according to any > schedule. > Readers interested in this somewhat nuanced topic might find the text "Destruction of Evidence" by Jamie Gorelick (yes, THAT Jamie Gorelick) of interest; it's out of print but still findable through used book sources; publisher is Wiley & Sons, ISBN 0471611387. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Tue Dec 5 15:34:13 2000 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:34:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Important Membership Information Message-ID: <200012052334.SAA01228@web79t.lga2.nytimes.com> Dear twatsrus0, Welcome to NYTimes.com! We are delighted that you have decided to become a member of our community. As a member you now have complete access to the Web's premier source for news and information -- free of charge. 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Share your thoughts about the site with us by sending an e-mail to feedback at nytimes.com ************************************************************* Your account information is listed below for future reference: Your Member ID is twatsrus0 You selected your password at registration. Your e-mail address is cypherpunks at toad.com If you did not authorize this registration, someone has mistakenly registered using your e-mail address. We regret the inconvenience; please see http://www.nytimes.com/subscribe/help/cancel.html for instructions. From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 5 10:40:08 2000 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: 5 Dec 2000 18:40:08 -0000 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) Message-ID: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> Adam Back wrote: > I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application was > MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related to > pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for > providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. James Donald replied: > Payee traceability made it possible to close accounts related to > pornography. Ecash is not truly cash like if the issuer can prevent it > from being used by tax evaders, child pornographers, money launderers and > terrorists. Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of MTB, whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify himself to the bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of business, etc. This is SOP for other payment systems like credit cards. It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their merchants. No payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable cash system would have been equally amenable to merchant screening. Any vendor has the right to control whom it does business with, and MTB chose to exercise its discretion in this way. The Texas couple in the news recently made a different choice and decided to provide payment services for child pornographers, as James Donald recommends. Now MTB is still in business (after merging with MTL and then FSR) and the Texans are in jail. Which made a better choice? From mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 5 10:40:11 2000 From: mix at anon.lcs.mit.edu (lcs Mixmaster Remailer) Date: 5 Dec 2000 18:40:11 -0000 Subject: manual crypto Message-ID: <20001205184011.10931.qmail@nym.alias.net> There's no particular need to make it a single-image random dot stereogram. Double images are much easier to make and provide an extra bonus (see below). Here is an example from a post to cypherpunks on September 23, 1997: VGhpcyBpcyBhIHRlc3Qg VGhpcyBpcyBhIHRlc3Qg bWVzc2FnZSB3aGljaCBp bWVc2AFnZB3xaGljaCBp cyBiZWluZyBzZW50IHZp cyBZWmluZBzvZW50IHZp YSBzdGVnYW5vZ3JhcGh5 YSBdGVnYW5v9Z3JhcGh5 LgpIYWQgdGhpcyBiZWVu LgpYW1QgdhpBcyBiZWVu IGFuIGFjdHVhbCBtZXNz IGFIGoFjdVhXbCBtZXNz YWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBo YWdlLCBpdCB3b3VsZCBo YXZlIGJlZW4gZW5jcnlw YXZIGJlZW4vgZW5jcnlw dGVkCnVzaW5nIGEgbWV0 dGVkCVzaUW5nIGEgbWV0 aG9kIHdoaWNoIHByb2R1 aG9kIdoa4WNoIHByb2R1 Y2VzIG91dHB1dCB3aGlj Y2VzI91dAHB1dCB3aGlj aCBpcyBpbmRpc3Rpbmd1 aCBcyBpbmRnpc3Rpbmd1 aXNoYWJsZQpmcm9tIHJh aXNoYWJsZQpmcm9tIHJh bmRvbSBieXRlcy4K bmRvbSBieXRlcy4K Using a monospace font, let your eyes separate so the text blocks merge and you will see the word HI displayed. To make this all you need is a random character generator to make the left block, and copy it to the right block. Then take the "pixels" where you want letters to appear and shift them one character to the left in the right-hand block. Use the random character generator to fill in the blanks which this shift causes. That's it. The hardest part would be finding a simple block font you can use for the letters. Now, here's the bonus. This is a perfect cover for sending large amounts of random data. Put your favorite political or sports message in the stereogram (GO BUSH) and use the random data for steganography. In the example above the left block is a base 64 encoding of a simple message. Unix users can pass the stereogram through "sed 's/ .*//' | mimencode -u". For a real stego message you'd use encrypted data without any headers so it looked purely random. There would be no way to distinguish it from any other source of randomly generated characters. This could even catch on as a legal "thumb your nose at the spooks" fad, people adding random sterograms at the end of their messages. You could even have an active .sig which had a constant message but used different random characters each time. There typically wouldn't be any hidden messages, but there would be no way to be sure. From jill at 8th-ellsworth.com Tue Dec 5 18:58:11 2000 From: jill at 8th-ellsworth.com (Jill Flomenhoft) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:58:11 -0800 Subject: damsel in distress Message-ID: Help! Can anyone refer me to a copy of the film "Cryptic Seduction" (1998)? I can't find it anywhere... Many thanks, Jill From jya at pipeline.com Tue Dec 5 16:05:37 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 19:05:37 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Jim Choate wrote: > >Actually your cite is the wrong one. It has nothing to do with a court >issuance. There has never been a question in that regard. As I said in a >earlier note, destruction of evidence is a crime which is well covered. As >soon as you have any reason to believe it's evidence (actually whether a >cop or other agent advises you of such or not) it becomes illegal for you >to alter or destroy it. Tampering with evidence is a crime and always has >been. The citation was given as the basis of the news story. And it shows that there is no five year retention requirement, only that the law is five years old. But that is trivial compared to your claim that you decide what is evidence and that it then becomes illegal to alter or destroy it. That appears to be playing cop without the authority. Now, you've made no bones about doing that in the past, apparently to protect your own ass and your fragile operation. Maybe you are under threat to out cop the cops. Certainly, fruadulent operations have to worry about being exposed. And, no doubt there are many sys admins and operators worldwide who believe that it is their perogative to finger their customers to the fuzz -- as with the big ISPs around the world madly trying to please the authorities so their businesses will get favorable treatment, or at least not become a target for investigation. A local comic might say all such people need killing. The lilly-livered sys admins who betray people's trust in their systems are a plague on the Internet, all braying about the need to secure their systems from bad users, and all of them -- along with their bosses and investors who are rushing to kiss the authorities asses even when the authorities know what the cheaters fear -- need to be exposed and pilloried. You, Jim, have repeatedly confessed to being a law and order rat fink. But I understand, son, that's just good business for a crooked cop. From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Tue Dec 5 16:22:30 2000 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:22:30 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net>; from jya@pipeline.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:05:37PM -0500 References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:05:37PM -0500, John Young wrote: > The lilly-livered sys admins who betray people's trust in their systems > are a plague on the Internet, all braying about the need to secure their > systems from bad users, and all of them -- along with their bosses > and investors who are rushing to kiss the authorities asses even when > the authorities know what the cheaters fear -- need to be exposed and > pilloried. Good comments, John. My 2 cents is that sysadmins' conservative organizations often force (or try to force) lilly-livered behavior. I've personal and 2nd hand stories about the legal counsel or upper management having a policy of blind cooperation with any law enforcement, sans warrant, for any request. Sometimes the sysadmin might choose to buck authority, but s/he does so at peril of losing cooperation or support from the higher-ups. So, regardless of whether the sysadmins are really lilly-livered, they might need to behave that way due to management or legal counsel who favors saving various legal expenses or hassles over taking the moral high road. Bottom line, as usual, is to trust no-one, including ISPs or sysadmins that have a strong privacy ethic. -- Greg From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 5 19:23:34 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 19:23:34 -0800 Subject: User Trolling for Passwords Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001205192334.01c1f6b0@idiom.com> Dear Bush / Telinco - your user, , sent the following email to the Cypherpunks mailing list. We often get script kiddies trolling for passwords, contraband, bomb-making materials, and the like. It's a difficult decision whether to harass them in return, or ask their internet providers to send them some Netiquette material. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any in the help files on your site - it was mostly about how to get interactive TV schedules. Phil - If you want passwords, ask your mother for one. If you want Richard Stallman's ITS password, it's carriage return, and by the time you get ITS up and running again, you'll have learned something. Grammar's a good thing to learn also. >Return-Path: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [216.34.245.2]) > by wormwood.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP > id 88EFE725B5; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:03:43 -0500 (EST) >Received: (from majordom at localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20246 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:57:30 -0800 (PST) >Received: (from cpunks at localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20213 for cypherpunks at infonex.com; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:57:12 -0800 (PST) >Received: from cyberpass.net (cyberpass.net [216.34.245.3]) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20202 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:57:05 -0800 (PST) >Received: from bushtv-1.mail.telinco.net (bushtv-1.mail.telinco.net [212.1.128.182]) by cyberpass.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03486 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:59:31 -0800 (PST) >Received: from [192.168.8.186] (helo=bushtv-java-1-internal.server.telinco.net) > by bushtv-1.mail.telinco.net with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #7) > id 143P91-0007Kn-00 > for cypherpunks at cyberpass.net; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:56:59 +0000 >Message-ID: <89854119.976049819687.JavaMail.root at bushtv-java-1-internal.server.telinco.n et> >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:56:58 +0000 (GMT) >From: PHILlIP CHRISTIAN >To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >Precedence: first-class >Reply-To: PHILlIP CHRISTIAN >X-List: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >X-Loop: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net >X-UIDL: ac925881ae786caacca3116fc22f5066 > >please send me password > > > > From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 16:35:43 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:35:43 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012060034.TAA09445@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dwarf4you.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 16:49:16 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:49:16 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C00@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 677 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 19:52:01 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:52:01 -0800 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 10:30:01PM -0500 References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20001205195200.E6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 10:30:01PM -0500, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 12:16 AM 12/5/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > > >I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? > > For more recent events, even though there isn't much of a Left left, > you could either believe the FBI saying Judi Bari blew up > herself and her friend with a pipe bomb a few years back, > or believe everybody else who think the cops did it. > (The friend was killed; Judy was injured, and she recently > died of cancer.) The friend was Daryl Cherney, and he's not dead, and is still making trouble ^H^H^H singing folk songs up near Humboldt, I think. He was mentioned recently in the Contra Costa Times for helping to coordinate a womens' topless protest against clearcuts in coastal northern CA. My guess is that the left's Tim McVeigh (or David Koresh, or Randy Weaver, for variants on that story) will come out of the animal liberation groups - Rodney Coronado has already spent a fair amount of time in jail, and there's whoever set that log-cabin-style ski lodge in Vail on fire. Ted Kaczynski seems like a good candidate - I think he and McVeigh have been talking in prison, they're being held in the same facility IIRC. But most of the left is too superstitious about having a personal relationship with violence for a likely suspect to emerge - they don't really embrace it until they're already in power, and then they're happy to use the existing institutional providers of force. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 18:13:26 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:13:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A2D9F31.1AA0E9DD@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > To prove destruction of evidence you must prove that it existed in a > form that was retrievable ( good luck ) and then that its destruction > was done by a person who was aware of the crime ( not always so in the > networking world ) for the purpose of concealing the crime( burden of > proof on you ). I clean disk space randomly and not according to any > schedule. > > Erase away, but not on the evil MS platform. Actually all you have to prove is it existed, say you find a body with a big hole that was caused by a gun. Hiding/destroying the gun down would be a crime at that point. If they could prove that you did the crime through other means, and that the crime was commited with a gun (which follows you had the gun at one time) then they could nail your slimey ass to the wall without ever laying hands on the gun. Similarly, grinding off s/n's, wiping disks (which your statement above would qualify as evidence), etc. to modify or otherwise alter the evidence would also be criminal. It's even a crime to destroy evidence in a civil (ie non-criminal) case. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 18:28:18 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:28:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Mark Allyn wrote: > Use PGP. Which doesn't help, there are issues related to key control and exchange that are not resolved. It further can be used as evidence against you if you are committing a crime, it is used to raise the sentence. It may be possible that you simply exchanging email (encryption speaks to premeditation which also raises the stakes) with another party is enough to tie you to the crime and find you guilty on other grounds. I hope you enjoy cooked goose. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Dec 5 20:47:35 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 20:47:35 -0800 Subject: Data Logs Message-ID: <3A2DC4E7.7B23AFA8@lsil.com> Jim, The bloke with the extra ventilation notwithstanding, with an open OS and open applications it seems easy to do pretty much whatever you want with disk data and logs regardless of what the letter of the law says. Electronic data is so malleable that its use as evidence seems questionable to begin with. It's not like a gun or a car which has a physical presence and cannot be duplicated or altered *quite* as readily as bits. ( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders for ballistic analysis ). This whole mess of communications and data privacy and copyright will be plaguing us for a long time and the most likely outcome is authoritarian legislation. Unless some Bush SC appointees are libertarians. Seem pretty likely? Mike From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Tue Dec 5 19:48:09 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:48:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: persuasive speeches In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Persuading the audience that you're really not a fucking moron? Go find someone else to help you with your homework. On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 Lockinator21 at aol.com wrote: > I can't think of a persuasive speech topic; can you think of one? > -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email galt at inconnu.isu.edu From philchristian at bushinternet.com Tue Dec 5 12:56:58 2000 From: philchristian at bushinternet.com (PHILlIP CHRISTIAN) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:56:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <89854119.976049819687.JavaMail.root@bushtv-java-1-internal.server.telinco.net> please send me password From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 18:02:22 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:02:22 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 09:04:03AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001205210222.A24341@cluebot.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 09:04:03AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > KEYSTROKE MONITORING AND THE SOPRANOS > > A federal gambling case against the son of a New Jersey mob > > boss may provide the courts with the opportunity to weigh in A copy of the indictment is here: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=00/12/06/0138246 Nicodemo S. Scarfo, the defendant in this case, is the son of the former head of the Philadelphia-Atlantic City mob (who has been in jail himself since 1991); Nicodemo is currently out on bail and awaiting trial. His attorney was going to file a pretrial motion on the crypto issue, but was replaced today (conflict of interest rules) with a new attorney, with whom I have not yet spoken. So if you don't like this kind of FBI black bag job, you'll want to root for Mr. Scarfo. :) -Declan PS: Some background on FBI black bag jobs and crypto: http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,33779,00.html From honig at sprynet.com Tue Dec 5 18:06:02 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:06:02 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA's In-Reply-To: References: <20001205193744.3347E35DC2@smb.research.att.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001205174638.007f1cb0@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:32 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 2:37 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: >> Very interesting, but what does IBM have to do with the case? Did you >> mean to type "FBI"? > >Absolutely. > >God knows why I did it... You didn't; that bump in your keyboard cable automatically replaces that acronym with another. From honig at sprynet.com Tue Dec 5 18:06:02 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:06:02 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > >An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services in large cities. From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 18:22:07 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:22:07 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012060221.VAA20670@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sexy virgin.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 18:33:43 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:33:43 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C02@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From njohnson at interl.net Tue Dec 5 19:35:34 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:35:34 -0600 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <016501c05f35$986d9e00$0100a8c0@nandts> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" ... > It's even a crime to destroy evidence in a civil (ie non-criminal) case. That's why you hear about companies creating "data retention" policies. They're not really about "retention". The company sets standards that stipulate what records should be kept, how long, and most importantly to the company that they should be destroyed after the official retention time has passed. By setting forth such a policy they can tell a plaintiff "We're sorry, we don't have those documents/e-mails/data anymore. That data has been destroyed per our records retention policy". If they can prove that they have a policy and are following it, they can't be accused of destroying evidence. Nifty Huh ? In defense of companies, it keeps ambulance chasers from subpoenaing ALL the company's records and then finding some information (a disgruntled employee's e-mail rant), that taken of context, makes the company appear guilty. After e-mails were used by the DOJ as "evidence" that Micro$oft was guilty of "anti-competitive" practices, it was quietly proposed by legal department at a company I know of that the e-mail system be configured to automatically delete users e-mail after a set time period, and not allow the easy off-line storage of messages. It was handily rejected by the IT department as impossible to implement and shouted down by many managers who didn't want their CYA e-mails automatically deleted. Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 19:47:00 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:47:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: <20001205220910.D20420@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > I'm curious how many people would buy the story that the machine in > question fell victim to hackers who erased logs and other files in > order to cover their tracks. I think it would depend on circumstances. For something like this to be taken seriously there would have to be other evidence of hacking. In addition, remember that by now they've probably got your line tapped so they'd have a sniffer copy of the hackers attack (assuming there was one). Of course you could go otherwhere and attempt an attack yourself as an alibi. You could probably wrap strategies like this one inside the other. They would certainly tax patience and resources if done expertly. Especially if one had some anonymous remailer/proxies thrown in the mix. How I'd use this particular point would be from the police perspective. I'd turn an associate and have them send an incriminating email, testifying to same. Say wanting to buy a quantity of drugs. The LEA's would of course have a sniffer log of that packet going into your machine. When they arrested you they would then look in your machine and if it was gone they could then demonstrate you destroyed evidence. This of course also breaks the standard 'encrypt using PGP' point as well. In that case the exchange of keys would demonstrate intent. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Dec 5 21:54:07 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 21:54:07 -0800 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials (Re: Jim Bell) In-Reply-To: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001205214801.01ee1ec0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Adam Back wrote: > > > I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application > > > was MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related > > > to pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for > > > providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. James Donald replied: > > Payee traceability made it possible to close accounts related to > > pornography. Ecash is not truly cash like if the issuer can > > prevent it from being used by tax evaders, child pornographers, > > money launderers and terrorists. Anonymous wrote: > Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of > MTB, whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify > himself to the bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of > business, etc. This is SOP for other payment systems like credit > cards. Ecash is not supposed to be like credit cards. Had the coins been cashlike, joe pornographer could have sold them under the table to the flying nun, who would then cash them in her very respectable account, and pay Joe pornographer under the table. > It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their merchants. No > payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable cash system would > have been equally amenable to merchant screening. Any vendor has > the right to control whom it does business with, and MTB chose to > exercise its discretion in this way. Payee traceability made it possible for the vendor to control who used his ecash. With truly untraceable cash, the vendor can no more control who uses his coins than can an issuer of physical coins. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 1888xf3dGOa7E0/VKdf5i8BViiT/hrOp51IW5PzN 4SxTFltcoKTQc4eFab8ZoF0byDe9qzXOqtQUqYWwc From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 5 21:56:11 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:56:11 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:16:03PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the > >information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a > >side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer > >equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to > >reduce the effective security of a system. > > > I fully support this comment that the whole issue of "legality" is a > "side show." Exactly - not every attacker represents law enforcement, and not every law enforcement attack is performed with the intention of creating admissible evidence. The US' exclusionary rule is the exception, not the rule, worldwide - most courts take more or less whatever evidence they can get. And thugs and goons and spies of many flavors don't give a shit about even pretending to cover their tracks when they're not following the rules. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From sfurlong at acmenet.net Tue Dec 5 19:00:52 2000 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steven Furlong) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:00:52 -0500 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement Message-ID: <3A2DABAF.5BE7B048@acmenet.net> Tim May wrote: > ...As to GPG vs. PGP, I wouldn't > know about this, as I never try to check signatures. Aren't they > inoperable anyway? Uh, was that "inoperable" or "interoperable"? -- Steve Furlong, Computer Condottiere Have GNU, will travel 617-670-3793 sfurlong at acmenet.net From mendicott at igc.org Tue Dec 5 19:02:18 2000 From: mendicott at igc.org (mendicott at igc.org) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 22:02:18 -0500 Subject: Secure communications + Human rights Message-ID: Technomads, Good day from Western Australia! I recently met with Peace Brigades International (PBI) http://www.igc.org/pbi/ , and was asked how naive users could use affordable secure communications from extreme remote locations.... I don't have experience with PGP or other privacy technologies. Is there anything like a "PGP net", listserv, or email-based discussion technology available that incorporates security or privacy techniques?? If this is not an appropriate topic for the Technomads group, please email me directly with any suggestions, thanks!! Peace on Earth, - Marcus Endicott http://www.mendicott.com --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rsw at MIT.EDU Tue Dec 5 19:09:10 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:09:10 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:31:52PM -0600 References: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20001205220910.D20420@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > The destruction of property or materials which are evidence of a crime is > itself a crime if done intentionally to cover up that crime. I'm curious how many people would buy the story that the machine in question fell victim to hackers who erased logs and other files in order to cover their tracks. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Tue Dec 5 19:28:59 2000 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:28:59 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! References: <200012060034.TAA09445@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <001b01c05f34$61177800$05d3ae95@zh8qw> Ti faccio il culo come una campana se continui ad inviare files infettati!! Vatti a far fotere!! ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "Hahaha" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:35 PM Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! > > Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and > polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a > *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven > Dwarfs enter... > > From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 19:30:00 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:30:00 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012060329.WAA28011@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sexy virgin.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 5 19:30:01 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:30:01 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com> At 12:16 AM 12/5/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? Well, there's the guy who blew up the Wisconsin Army Research Center math building in the 70s (at night, and they hadn't known there was one person still in the building) who used ANFO. I think Bernadine Doern was part of the Columbia bomb-makers, though she may have been some other bunch of leftists. For more recent events, even though there isn't much of a Left left, you could either believe the FBI saying Judi Bari blew up herself and her friend with a pipe bomb a few years back, or believe everybody else who think the cops did it. (The friend was killed; Judy was injured, and she recently died of cancer.) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Frank.Trotter at EVERBANK.com Tue Dec 5 19:35:52 2000 From: Frank.Trotter at EVERBANK.com (Trotter, Frank) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:35:52 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Adam Back wrote: > I think the thing that killed MT / digicash for this application > was MT at the time was reported to be closing accounts related to > pornography -- they apparently didn't want the reputation for > providing payment mechanisms for the porn industry or something. James Donald replied: > Payee traceability made it possible to close accounts related to > pornography. Ecash is not truly cash like if the issuer can > prevent it from being used by tax evaders, child pornographers, > money launderers and terrorists. Hettinga replied: > Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of > MTB, whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify > himself to the bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of > business, etc. This is SOP for other payment systems like > credit cards. > > It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their > merchants. No payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable > cash system would have been equally amenable to merchant > screening. Any vendor has the right to control whom it does > business with, and MTB chose to exercise its discretion in > this way. > > The Texas couple in the news recently made a different > choice and decided to provide payment services for child > pornographers, as James Donald recommends. Now MTB is still > in business (after merging with MTL and then FSR) and the > Texans are in jail. Which made a better choice? There are a host of issues that prevented the widespread use of eCash(tm), or perhaps better phrased didn't properly incent the widespread use of eCash in the mid-1990's. Certainly a number of the decisions I made contributed, but I don't believe that the merchant criteria was even a blip despite the firestorm the action created within a narrow community - see http://www.shipwright.com/rants/rant_12.html for a contemporaneous and at the time much appreciated commentary from you-know-who. Ultimately any "value transfer system" must be broadly accepted across personal, business and institutional entities (yes I think the latter two are different) - today all of these can interchangeably use cash, checks, ach or wires for example. The combination of credit quality, trust, and lowest transaction costs must all be present for something to replace our current mediums. When value is involved wealth-owners tend to focus first on the trust and credit issues - if your wealth disappears then it just doesn't matter what the transaction costs are. Some recent discussions on or near this list of perceived issues with PayPal and e-gold point out that the trust factor includes all participants agreeing on the rules of engagement. To achieve the primary trust and credit goals of wealth owners and within the constructs that are available to us today this seems to mean that regulated financial institutions may need to be involved, but the form and content are yet to be determined. FOT Personal comments only. ======================== Frank O. Trotter, III President - everbank.com Spank your banker and come on over to http://www.everbank.com everbank is a Division of Wilmington Savings Fund Society, FSB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.2 iQA/AwUBOi2xKKc6Jcu2sioFEQLZhgCg7qjfsjLUHioCyH8NHbkl4YOwdxgAoI47 1aFn+T5SHhxW+fYgpxnuGeNQ =ezLL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 19:42:05 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:42:05 -0500 Subject: Secure communications + Human rights Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 19:42:11 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:42:11 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C04@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found sexy virgin.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 680 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com Tue Dec 5 19:49:42 2000 From: pcmontecucchi at compuserve.com (Pier Carlo Montecucchi) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:49:42 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! References: <200012060329.WAA28011@domains.invweb.net> Message-ID: <000d01c05f37$402c9f00$05d3ae95@zh8qw> Allora sei un vizioso! Vieni qui che proviamo. ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "Hahaha" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 10:30 PM Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! > > Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and > polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a > *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven > Dwarfs enter... > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 5 20:57:07 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:57:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <3A2DC4E7.7B23AFA8@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > The bloke with the extra ventilation notwithstanding, with an open OS > and open applications it seems easy to do pretty much whatever you want > with disk data and logs regardless of what the letter of the law says. Agreed, but also irrelevant. > Electronic data is so malleable that its use as evidence seems > questionable to begin with. It's not like a gun or a car which has a > physical presence and cannot be duplicated or altered *quite* as readily > as bits. This makes them more dangerous and likely to be the center of controversy. As to altering bits, depends on what bits where you are talking off. Not all bits are equal. > for ballistic analysis ). This whole mess of communications and data > privacy and copyright will be plaguing us for a long time and the most > likely outcome is authoritarian legislation. I believe the long term (say 100 to 250 years) will be elimination of copyright, trademark, and IP in general. It will be the consequence of a growing 'Yeah, but what have you done for me today?' attitude. I believe the Open Source movement is one component. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ddt at lsd.com Tue Dec 5 22:58:25 2000 From: ddt at lsd.com (Dave Del Torto) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:58:25 -0800 Subject: "Hello, You're Dead" Message-ID: "...Hitting the 5, 6, 7 and 8 buttons on the phone gun fires four .22-caliber rounds in quick succession. ..." OK, so I can accept that only Mad Dogs & (Home Office) Englishmen may be looney enough to sit around under the noonday press coverage after someone's leaked their classified plans to store seven years' worth of everyone's communications (Ministry of Silly Flippin' Traffic-analysis... MSFT?), and maybe Viagra is responsible for all this US presidential madness (how else could two old white guys hold an election for so long? ;) -- but what the hell is going on when you can't order a damned pizza over the phone without risking that you'll blow your own salami off? dave ____________________________________________________________________________ "It's not the Voting that makes Democracy, it's the Counting." -Tom Stoppard From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 20:05:47 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:05:47 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 9:06 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, David Honig wrote: > A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. This is why Chaum wants a small cryptographic device with it's own I/O, certainly. We'll get one when there's enough money behind it. Money's edge of the wedge... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 5 23:18:09 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:18:09 -0800 Subject: Exclusionary Rule and Black Bag Jobs In-Reply-To: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: At 9:56 PM -0800 12/5/00, Greg Broiles wrote: >On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> >The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the >> >information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a >> >side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer >> >equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to >> >reduce the effective security of a system. >> >> >> I fully support this comment that the whole issue of "legality" is a >> "side show." > >Exactly - not every attacker represents law enforcement, and not every >law enforcement attack is performed with the intention of creating >admissible evidence. The US' exclusionary rule is the exception, not >the rule, worldwide - most courts take more or less whatever evidence >they can get. And thugs and goons and spies of many flavors don't >give a shit about even pretending to cover their tracks when they're >not following the rules. And the "exclusionary rule" is mostly meaningless, anyway. Though there is much noise about "fruit of the poisoned tree" (or "poison tree," not sure which), a black bag job can generate other grounds for arrest and prosecution. For example, planned meets, planned heists, etc. One of my favorite movies of all time is "Heat," with Robert De Niro and Al Pacino. The cops are trying to prove a gang is pulling off a series of violent heists. Surveillance is heavy, and the surveillance per se is not intended to be used in a court: the cops are seeking to catch the gang in action. And then there's the old "confidential informant" ploy: "We got a tip from our snitch." Make no mistake about it, the exclusionary rule will do little to deter black bag jobs. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 5 20:27:45 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:27:45 -0500 Subject: ecash, cut & choose and private credentials Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 205 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Tue Dec 5 20:37:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:37:43 -0500 Subject: damsel in distress In-Reply-To: ; from jill@8th-ellsworth.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:58:11PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001205233743.B24447@cluebot.com> I included ordering info in a wired.com column earlier this year. Ah, here it is: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,39172,00.html Or you can make a bid for one of the copies of the movie already out there in cypherpunkly hands. :) -Declan On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:58:11PM -0800, Jill Flomenhoft wrote: > Help! Can anyone refer me to a copy of the film "Cryptic Seduction" (1998)? > I can't find it anywhere... > > Many thanks, > Jill > > From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Dec 5 20:53:05 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:53:05 -0500 Subject: Keystroke monitoring Message-ID: <3A2DC710.7F494CFF@lsil.com> >> A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. > What are the problems with something like the Compaq iPaq? Open HW design, replaceable OS. Buy for cash. Possession is somewhat obscured. If you can boot external SW ( no reason why not ) you can check the ROM integrity. The CPU is relatively quick. Looks OK to me. Has audio i/o too. Too bad no enet on-board. >This is why Chaum wants a small cryptographic device with it's own I/O, >certainly. > >We'll get one when there's enough money behind it. Money's edge of the wedge... > >Cheers, >RAH > From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 5 21:00:07 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:00:07 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 10:30 PM -0500 12/5/00, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 12:16 AM 12/5/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: > >>I wonder who the Tim McVeigh of the Left will be? > >Well, there's the guy who blew up the Wisconsin Army Research Center >math building in the 70s (at night, and they hadn't known there was >one person still in the building) who used ANFO. > >I think Bernadine Doern was part of the Columbia bomb-makers, >though she may have been some other bunch of leftists. > >For more recent events, even though there isn't much of a Left left, >you could either believe the FBI saying Judi Bari blew up >herself and her friend with a pipe bomb a few years back, >or believe everybody else who think the cops did it. >(The friend was killed; Judy was injured, and she recently >died of cancer.) She and her friend were on their way to speak in my town, Santa Cruz. And there had been a power outage a few months earlier, caused by power lines being blown up, and claimed to be an action by "Earth Action Night." Many of us here in Santa Cruz assumed that Judy was transporting another bomb down to this area. I don't believe her friend was killed in the blast, though. Let me go check... Nope, her passenger, Darryl Cherney, did not die. I have no knowledge one way or another about whether the FBI did it, rivals did it, or they were transporting a bomb to the Santa Cruz area for another "Earth Action Night" bombing. I tend toward the latter view. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Tue Dec 5 21:06:08 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 00:06:08 -0500 Subject: Missed News: US Adopts Euro Cyber Crime Proposal ... References: <3.0.6.32.20001204180431.007d2660@pop.sprynet.com> <3.0.5.32.20001205090657.01c1f210@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3A2DC93B.6FB1DD42@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Bill Stewart wrote: > For more recent events, even though there isn't much of a Left left, > you could either believe the FBI saying Judi Bari blew up > herself and her friend with a pipe bomb a few years back, > or believe everybody else who think the cops did it. > (The friend was killed; Judy was injured, and she recently > died of cancer.) No, he wasn't killed, he's still alive and agitating. He wasn't hurt as badly as she (the bomb was under her seat). Interesting thing was the FBI had just been holding a bomb class for the local pigs just before this, where they taught the oinks to build pipe bombs, practice setting them off in a nearby quarry, etc. And guess who showed up at the bombing scene within 15 minutes of the bomb explosion? Why, your friendly FBI bomb teachers. They arrested Judi and Darryl Cherney at the scene as "terrorist bombers" and are now being sued for false arrest, etc. What a great country we live in, eh? From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 5 22:15:21 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 01:15:21 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200012060614.BAA14307@domains.invweb.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dwarf4you.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 5 22:26:00 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 01:26:00 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C06@exchange.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, " Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 6 01:46:34 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 01:46:34 -0800 Subject: ANNOUNCE: SF Bay Area Cypherpunks, December 9, Jupiter, Berkeley Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001206014634.00923d20@idiom.com> SF Bay Area Cypherpunks July 2000 Physical Meeting Announcement Meeting Announcements On The Web: http://www.cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html General Info: DATE: Saturday December 9, 2000 TIME: 1:00 - 6:00 PM (Pacific Time) PLACE: Jupiter, 2181 Shattuck, Berkeley Agenda - "Our agenda is a widely held secret" The organized program begins about 1:00. After the meeting, there is usually dinner somewhere nearby. Jupiter is a brewery, with pizza and sandwiches and their own beer and other brewers' beer. This is an open meeting on US Soil, and everyone's invited, including some suspiciously foreign Canadians and Brits who are expected. However, it's possible there will be Stupid Government Tricks restricting people under 21, because of the presence of ethanol. Some expected people and discussion topics: Secure Mail Programs. BayFF held a meeting Monday 12/4 - if anybody attended, we'd really like to hear what you thought. Many of the usual suspects, good and bad, were there. Ian Goldberg - Ian is finishing his doctorate and fleeing North. Phill Hallam-Baker - XKMS Key Management System - Verisign and WWW Consortium Nick Szabo - Smart Contracts Bill Stewart - NSA Crypto Museum - I visited the NSA Crypto Museum, and brought back brochures and an Enigma cracker. Most of my pictures are too dark, but if one of you knows Photoshop, that may be fixable. Location: Jupiter, 2181 Shattuck, Berkeley http://www.jupiterbeer.com/berkeley/ We will be in the heated outdoor beer garden, weather permitting, or conspicuously inside. Jupiter opens at high noon. Directions: BART: Take BART to Berkeley station; Jupiter is across the street. Driving: Take 80 to University Avenue, turn right on Shattuck, about 3 blocks. Map: http://www.jupiterbeer.com/berkeley/directions/ Lat/Long: 37.869765 N 122.268175 W ========= If you have questions, comment or agenda requests, or you need directions, please contact the meeting organizers: Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com Cell +1-415-307-7119 Dave Del Torto, Dave at DelTor.to Cell +1-415-730-3583 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This announcement has been sent to the meetingpunks and cypherpunks lists. You can find the announcement online at http://www.cryptorights.org/cypherpunks/meetingpunks.html To UNSUBSCRIBE an address from the meetingpunks list send email to: meetingpunks-request at majordomo.cryptorights.org with "unsubscribe meetingpunks [optional-address]" in the BODY. To SUBSCRIBE an address to this list send email to: meetingpunks-request at majordomo.cryptorights.org with "subscribe meetingpunks [optional-address]" in the BODY. To contact the list-owner, send email to meetingpunks-admin at cryptorights.org. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks list, look at the mail headers, find which of the servers sent you the message, and send mail to cypherpunks-request at that server saying "help". --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From rsw at mit.edu Wed Dec 6 00:26:39 2000 From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 03:26:39 -0500 Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 09:47:00PM -0600 References: <20001205220910.D20420@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001206032639.B21783@positron.mit.edu> Jim Choate wrote: > This of course > also breaks the standard 'encrypt using PGP' point as well. In that case > the exchange of keys would demonstrate intent. Unless you and the person with whom you are commmunicating publish your public keys on a key server before any of the government action in question takes place. In that case, you wouldn't have to send your key to that person---they can access it via the keyserver. As to getting their key, it wouldn't be hard to have that person post a signed message to a public list to which you are subscribed, giving you demonstrable reason to download his/her public key. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From nytdirect at nytimes.com Wed Dec 6 01:27:35 2000 From: nytdirect at nytimes.com (The New York Times Direct) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:27:35 -0500 Subject: Today's Headlines from NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012061034.CAA09860@toad.com> TODAY'S HEADLINES The New York Times on the Web Wednesday, December 6, 2000 ------------------------------------------------------------ For news updated throughout the day, visit www.nytimes.com QUOTE OF THE DAY ========================= "American children continue to learn, but their peers in other countries are learning at a higher rate." - RICHARD W. RILEY, secretary of education, on the results of an international test of math and science. Full Story: http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/national/06EXAM.html BUSINESS ========================= Greenspan Suggests the Need to Lift Rates Is Diminished http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06FED.html Market Place: Whoopee, a Stock Surge! Now a Reality Check http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06PLAC.html Management: Big Plush Offices Make Way for Humble Space http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06OFFI.html U.S. Joins in Suits Against Lockheed Martin http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06DISC.html /--------------------- ADVERTISEMENT ---------------------\ Mark the elections with a presidential screensaver To celebrate the elections, NYTimes.com has created a Presidents screensaver that captures some of history's finest moments from The New York Times Photo Archives. Enjoy these images every day on your PC or Mac, absolutely free. http://www.nytimes.com/partners/screensaver/index.html?ibd \---------------------------------------------------------/ INTERNATIONAL ========================= Putin Pushes Soviet Hymn, Creating Disharmony http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/world/06RUSS.html UN Security Council Lets Iraq Spend Oil Fund http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/world/06IRAQ.html Palestinian Economy in Ruins, U.N. Says http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/world/06MIDE.html America to Press Security in Distant Ports http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/world/06NAVY.html NATIONAL ========================= U.S. Students Fail to Keep Up in Global Science and Math Tests http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/national/06EXAM.html Antigang 'Role Model' Is Up for a Nobel and Execution http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/national/06PRIS.html Independent Counsel Seeks to Interview Lewinsky Again http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/politics/06INQU.html Ex-Aide Charges Harassment in Milwaukee http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/national/06MAYO.html SPORTS ========================= Devils Humble the Avalanche http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/sports/06DEVI.html New Champ Learned Patience http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/sports/06VECS.html A Man Who Likes His Quiet Comes to the Big, Noisy City http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/sports/06MUSS.html Division Race Just Got Harder for Mets http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/sports/06SKED.html TECHNOLOGY ========================= Xerox to Spin Off Company http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/technology/06XERO.html Apple Warns It Will Record Loss http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/technology/06APPL.html Nasdaq Sets Record in Rally http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/business/06STOX.html Consortium Offers Unfiltered Advice on Filtering Software http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/technology/06EDUCATION.html ARTS ========================= The British Museum: Stodgy Never Looked So Chic http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/arts/06MUSE.html Step by Step, Sol LeWitt's Work Climbs the Walls at the Whitney http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/arts/06LEWI.html 'Tiny Alice': Testing a Steadfast Faith With Flesh http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/arts/06ALIC.html A Pocket-Size Opera From a Harrowing Kafka Story http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/arts/06ARTS.html NEW YORK REGION ========================= U.S. to Order $490 Million River Cleanup by G.E. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/science/06HUDS.html Fall From Subway Train Kills 3-Year-Old Boy in Brooklyn http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/nyregion/06TRAI.html A Repaved Path Underpins a Revitalization Plan http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/nyregion/06REAL.html Scout Issue Stirs Revolt by a Board Chancellor Attacked for Limiting Access http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/nyregion/06SCOU.html OP-ED COLUMNISTS ========================= By PAUL KRUGMAN: Cheney Gets Vulgar Dick Cheney, speaking last weekend, gave us our first post-election hints about Gov. George W. Bush's economic policy. And the news is not good. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/opinion/06KRUG.html By MAUREEN DOWD: Sisyphus at Starbucks Vice President Al Gore must realize that he will not make the move down the West Wing hall, despite the fact that everyone knows that he won. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/06/opinion/06DOWD.html HOW TO CHANGE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION ------------------------------------------------------------ You received these headlines because you requested The New York Times Direct e-mail service. To cancel delivery, change delivery options, change your e-mail address or sign up for other newsletters, see http://www.nytimes.com/email HOW TO ADVERTISE ------------------------------------------------------------ For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson Racer at alyson at nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo From andrew.drapp at hitachi-eu.com Wed Dec 6 02:25:10 2000 From: andrew.drapp at hitachi-eu.com (Andrew Drapp) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 05:25:10 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > R. A. Hettinga wrote: > This is why Chaum wants a small cryptographic device with it's own I/O, > certainly. > > We'll get one when there's enough money behind it. Money's edge > of the wedge... We have it now. Smartcards. High end smart cards, with a co-processor on board can do their own encrypting and decrypting. Of course, they are still slow enough that you wouldn't want to encrypt/decrypt any large files onboard the card, but for small text it isn't a problem. Bringing this back to PGP and how you might protect the keys, you could keep the keys on the smartcard, or just the passphrase on the smart card. The card could be locked to a PIN number, which after X incorrect entries locked the card permanently. You wouldn't want to do PGP encryption on the card, so the key/passphrase is can still be sniffed when it is pulled off of the card. Regards, Andrew Drapp -- Andrew Drapp PGP Encrypted Email Preferred (KeyID 65A52F89) ********************************************************************* E-mail Confidentiality Notice and Disclaimer This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited. E-mail messages are not necessarily secure. Hitachi does not accept responsibility for any changes made to this message after it was sent. Please note that Hitachi checks outgoing e-mail messages for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************* From folgore at pilot.infi.net Wed Dec 6 03:22:38 2000 From: folgore at pilot.infi.net (Christopher Wakefield) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:22:38 -0500 Subject: say again ? Message-ID: <000001c05f76$d71f3460$dc549cd1@wakefield> it is me the one who asked for the picture . the email was received but then my email crashed and lost it please send it a gain thankyou -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 464 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 04:04:56 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:04:56 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A2E2B15.DC655711@ricardo.de> David Honig wrote: > Hitler's estate would be the natural heir (under US law :-), although I can > believe that .de would seize it too, if he had no heir, or if they > didn't like him. he had no heir, and I believe the (C) falling to bavaria (not germany!) was incidental, not planned. From RKBARTVI-3 at webtv.net Wed Dec 6 04:11:17 2000 From: RKBARTVI-3 at webtv.net (Ronald Booker) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:11:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: For Sale,Docket No.99-80106 and,or the U.S.Constitution Message-ID: <114-3A2E2CE5-3@storefull-296.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Why was the State of California vs.Mr.O.J. Simpson"allege" Trial of the Century such a mockery of justice ? The contents thats associated with Docket No.99-80106 of the,U.S.Court Of"Appeals"For The "Ninth Circuit" provides the answer !!! Not only do you have proof of statutory crimes that undermines the goverment,by california legislation.but there is proof as to how,federal judges "still obstruct justice" to cover up for the legislation that is in Sacremento,Ca. Which former governor,P.Wilson,former state attorney general,D.Lungren,(Ca.state dept.of justice),the state's"corrupt"supreme court justices,former speaker of the state legislator,now Da Mayor of San Francisco,Ca. the Hon.Judge Ito, Mr.J. Cochron,(Amend.VI),all conspired to obstruct justice to cover up for the state legislation,(thats still in Sacremento,Ca. Smile !!!),that abrogates the Bill of Rights. The documentation that is associated with Docket No.99-80106 gets better and,or the facts,"evidence" and law proves the roles of non other than the,U.S.Dept.of Justice,(Frist Lady,H.R.Clinton"Esquire" her inlaws,U.S.Sen. B.Boxer and spouse,(Boxer,Elkind,& Gerson), Madam Atty.Gen.,Reno,U.S.Atty.,M.Yamaguchi or several Assist.U.S.Attorneys,the F.B.I.),U.S. Senator, D. Feinstein,U.S.Congressmen,B.Lee,the Sec.of H U D.Mr.A.Cuomo,(state dept of justice,state superior court judges,of Case No.763049-9 of the Alameda County Superior Court !),in "illegal' conspiracies to obstruct justice,to hinder the prosecution of, U.S.Senator,B.Boxer,(the inlaws of the Frist lady), for her roles in "multiple violations" of "federal" and state laws,by statutory crimes,the aborgations of the Bill of Rights,where federal and state judges conspire to protect those that betray the U.S.Constitution. Where law enforcement obstuct justice to cover up,"illegal' conspiracies to plot,Manslaughter,Mureder, "Legal Malice",by law,by legislation !!! No wonder the allege Trial of the Century was a lark,as the public cannot be made aware of the betrayals of the U.S.Constitution by laws,which the Justices of the U.S.Court of"Appeals' For The "Ninth Circuit",subverts their sworn oaths and the U.S.Constitution to cover up !!! Yet the facts associated with Docket No.99-80106 of the,U.S.Court of "Appeals" For The "Ninth Circuit" and the legislation,(Smile !),that is still available in Sacremento,Ca. proves ! Mrs B.Boxer,(U.S.Senator,former,U.S. Congresswomen,the inlaw of the Frist Family of the United States !),is a very Evil and Corrupt person. Not everyone can get a Frist Lady of the U.S.,& the U.S.Dept.of Justice,& Federal Judges, to assist in obstucting justice !!! Smile, which again abrogates the Bill of Rights and,or Amendment 14 sec.1 "?" Sincerely Ronald K.Booker States,(Ca.),W.C.A.B.,No.Oak.0176038,"1992" From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 04:17:30 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:17:30 -0500 Subject: German Faces Charges for Selling Adolf Sofa References: <55bfb85db82c706b2c271f86386637db@mix2.hyperreal.pl> Message-ID: <3A2E2E19.29232B30@ricardo.de> Anonymous wrote: > > Monday December 4 9:56 AM ET > German Faces Charges for Selling > Adolf Sofa Set > > By Fiona Shaikh what a "fine" piece of journalism. especially the "faces charges" derived from "someone asked the government to start a prosecution". From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 05:19:13 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:19:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: <20001206032639.B21783@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > Unless you and the person with whom you are commmunicating publish > your public keys on a key server before any of the government action > in question takes place. No, that won't work either. Simple publishing is no cover at all. Evidence doesn't have to be secret to be evidence. Even public statements (equivalent to publishing public keys) can be used against you. If there is an exchange of encrypted data, that in and of itself is sufficient to demonstrate communications. That is enough to demonstrate intent and cooperation. Further, since the public keys are useless in and of themselves for encryption without the private keys any exchange would demonstrate that each party had access to the relevent private keys mapped to the public keys. It's possession of the private keys that will roast your goose. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From directmarketing at netzero.com Wed Dec 6 08:30:28 2000 From: directmarketing at netzero.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:30:28 -0800 Subject: Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly At Home - Here's How! Message-ID: <200012061638.IAA25681@cyberpass.net> Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly Home Workers Needed Nationwide Hundreds of companies are currently looking for telecommuters. There is no experience needed and you can start right away. This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program. In fact, none of the companies require any special fees to get started. Many offer free training. Start earning money in your spare time. You set the hours, you decide how much you want to make. Email powerstaff at earthlink.net with "Work At Home" in the subject heading for complete details. Best Wishes Home Workers Directory P.S. Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. 3VABW2E5QW From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Dec 6 09:00:46 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:00:46 -0800 Subject: iPaq Message-ID: <3A2E70BE.CBD57F7E@lsil.com> The device has extension ports that allow PCMCIA and Compact Flash. These adapters are in the $50 range. There are wireless modems available but they're fairly pricey : ~$350 for the modem, $50.month for the service. All in all it looks pretty good. Schematics/specs open, Linux/X already ported. The specs are reasonable ( unlike Palm ) it's a 206MHz ARM9, USB, Audio, 320x240x12bit display, 16Mb FLASH, 32Mb DRAM if I recall correctly. Throw in a 512Mb IBM microdrive, CFS, it's not bad. Looks like the most secure option to me. Gateway SW over USB ( even for M$ OS ) shouldn't be too tough. I guess you could trust an M$ machine to handle already encrypted packets. From gbroiles at netbox.com Wed Dec 6 09:04:50 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:04:50 -0800 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com>; from declan@well.com on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:07:57PM -0500 References: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <20001206090449.K6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:07:57PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > A minor clarification: The formal proposal known as "Know Your > Customer" was withdrawn (see my back articles on that topic). But > other regulations in the same vein require banks to require ID. I'm not a banking law geek, but I believe that there are federal regs in place known as "know your customer" rules which apply to depository institutions like banks, credit unions, etc - the regs which were withdrawn would have required NBFI's (non-bank financial institutions) to comply with similar rules, as they're sometimes used instead of banks to avoid the KYC rules. Or am I thinking of something else? -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From rah at shipwright.com Wed Dec 6 06:47:50 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:47:50 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001205215610.H6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: At 9:56 PM -0800 on 12/5/00, Greg Broiles wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote: >> >The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the >> >information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a >> >side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer >> >equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to >> >reduce the effective security of a system. >> >> >> I fully support this comment that the whole issue of "legality" is a >> "side show." > > Exactly - not every attacker represents law enforcement, Right. My own personal opinion is that the more *money* is controlled with cryptography and moved/stored on the internet, the stronger those technologies will become, and, unfortunately, not for any other reason. Like Whit Diffie has said, "cyberwar" will be "fought" by businesses, and not nation-states. Government black-bag jobs are just one of many kinds of theft... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Wed Dec 6 06:57:03 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 09:57:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:25 AM -0500 on 12/6/00, Andrew Drapp wrote: > We have it now. Smartcards. Smartcards may be more portable, but *don't* have their own I/O, and David Chaum was *not* talking about smartcards when he mad the point I was making. See the proceedings of the 1998 International Conference on Financial Cryptography for details. They're published by Springer-Verlag. Any large library should have them, if you don't want to actually buy them. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 10:14:42 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:14:42 -0800 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net In-Reply-To: <3A2E29FB.723D2363@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> <3A2E29FB.723D2363@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 12:58 PM +0100 12/6/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >Tim May wrote: >> This is misleading. There is much debate about ownership of the >> copyright, whether it has expired (as would normally be the case >> after roughly 70 years, whether the licenses sold to other publishers >> are valid, etc.). > >it's been changed to 70 years after death of author recently, at least >in the US. that would make the expire date 2015. > > > >> Quite odd that the publisher Houghton Mifflin would say they are >> donating all royalties since 1979 if in fact no copies have been >> published since 1945! >> >> Even more odd if some of us have copies in our libraries which were >> published much more recently than 1945. > >here's what I wrote: > >> only copies printed before 1945 are actually legal, > >am I missing the link between "legal" and "existing", or did you imagine >it? The copies published in the United States are fully legal. Whether Germany likes our laws is not my concern. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 07:38:42 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:38:42 -0500 Subject: mafia boy resists fedz Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206071931.007f8100@pop.sprynet.com> http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20001205/2888098s.htm 'Mafiaboy' trying to stare down prosecutors Lawyer: If teen accused of shutting down Web sites of CNN, Yahoo has to go to trial, prosecutors will pay By Kevin Johnson USA TODAY MONTREAL -- Nearly a year after a hacker shut down some of the biggest names on the Internet -- causing an estimated $1.3 billion in lost business -- prosecutors and lawyers representing a defendant known as ''Mafiaboy'' are locked in a high-stakes game of chicken over whether the case will go to trial. The 16-year-old is charged with the cyber equivalent of breaking and entering in assaults last winter that shut down sites operated by Yahoo, eBay, CNN and E-Trade. The attacks, in which the Web sites were overloaded with requests from supercomputers infected with a program planted by a hacker, affected millions of Internet users worldwide. If convicted, prosecutors say, Mafiaboy -- whose name is being withheld because he is a juvenile -- could face up to two years confinement in a youth center, $1,000 in fines and up to 240 hours of community service. Prosecutors are willing to consider a plea agreement, but only if it includes some confinement. Absolutely not, says the teen's attorney, who vows that if prosecutors stick to that position, they'll be sorry. Yan Romanowski says his client is bracing for a protracted trial, lasting four to six months, during which the defense will demand that the government show the computer program that brought the Internet giants to their knees. Internet security experts are calling the strategy blackmail, and prosecutors say they do not believe that publicizing the program, which Mafiaboy allegedly found on the Internet, would be necessary. Nevertheless, Romanowski, in a likely attempt to gain leverage in plea-bargain talks, is playing hardball. The lawyer plans to challenge the legality of wiretaps that allowed Royal Canadian Mounted Police to collect 40 days of telephone conversations, during which the teenager is alleged to have bragged about his exploits behind the keyboard. The wiretaps were planted after authorities traced computer ''fingerprints'' left on one supercomputer used in the attacks back to Mafiaboy. ''If that evidence is eliminated,'' Romanowski says, ''the whole case gets kicked.'' If the evidence stands, as prosecutor Louis Miville-Deschenes expects, the defense envisions a courtroom drama that will require some of the biggest players in electronic commerce to testify as embarrassed victims of a boy's mischief. ''This is not an open-and-closed case by any means,'' Romanowski says. Perhaps, but the lawyer's client might have not have helped matters when he was arrested last Friday and accused of violating the terms of his bail by repeatedly breaking school rules at Riverdale High. He remained in custody Monday night and was scheduled for a detention hearing today. ''The kid has been a general pain in the posterior,'' Miville-Deschenes says. This Friday, the teenager is expected to answer the hacking charges. Romanowski says he plans to plead not guilty. As part of any plea negotiation, prosecutors have asked him to participate in debriefing sessions with Canadian authorities and possibly U.S. investigators to discuss his relationships with a vast, international network of associates. Like detention, that's also unacceptable to the defense, say Romanowski and John Calce, 45, Mafiaboy's father. Because of ''loyalty,'' Calce says, there is no chance his son would sit down with authorities to discuss his private communications with friends. ''I don't think he'll be cooperating with them.'' In a bizarre case that parallels the one involving his son, Calce is facing a conspiracy charge because of what Canadian authorities heard on the telephone wiretap designed to garner evidence against his son. Investigators say they decided to move in on both of them the morning of April 15 after phone transmissions picked up Calce, who is president of a transportation company, allegedly planning to have someone rough up a business associate. Romanowski, who also represents Calce, suggests that the father's strong words on the telephone were simply misinterpreted. Calce says the dispute involved about $1.5 million but adds that he never intended to hurt anyone. ''It was the worst possible thing that could happen,'' Calce says of the police raid at his suburban home. ''I came downstairs in my bathrobe, and there were about 20 Mounties in my house. One guy grabbed me by the robe; I told him to get his hands off. I'm not an easy guy to push around.'' There is no disputing that. Calce's chalk-stripe suit doesn't hide his formidable size and raw manner. Unshaven and blunt-speaking, Calce's physical presence, plus the charge lodged against him, seems to invite questions about whether there is any special significance to his son's Internet moniker. Calce and his lawyer consider the question, share a chuckle and then politely decline to respond. ''I don't think we'll comment on that one,'' Romanowski says. Patrick Healy, a law professor at McGill University in Montreal, says a trial in the Mafiaboy case almost certainly would provide a unique forum to contest privacy issues and sabotage in the computer world. ''There have not been many prosecutions of this kind anywhere,'' he says. And if there is an advantage to taking this case to trial, the professor says, it might be tied directly to the defendant's age. ''A trial just might show this boy to be a clever kid who should not be hit with a ton of bricks,'' Healy says. Computer security analyst Marc Rasch says prosecutors should not be intimidated by Romanowski's threat to expose potentially damaging hacking information. In this case, he says, the type of assault already has been fairly well detailed in media accounts of the charges lodged against the boy. ''There is genuine risk that publication (of this formula) again could cause additional exploitation,'' Rasch says, ''but that shouldn't dictate how the prosecution should proceed.'' Miville-Deschenes, the prosecutor, does not appear to be fazed by the prospect of courtroom disclosure of sensitive information. However, he is concerned about the potential cost of a lengthy trial and the presentation of complex evidence to a judge whose computer savvy might be limited. ''I understand that there may be a certain Robin Hood-type aspect to this case'' that could foster sympathy for the defendant, the prosecutor says. ''This was a kid who was able to bring huge dot-com companies to their knees. . . . If he were an arsonist, people would want to stone him because of the damage he caused. The intent in this case and the damage caused is basically the same.'' If the hacking case goes to trial, Calce says, the defense will make no attempt to portray his son as a perfect kid. In addition to his arrest last Friday, the teen spent two days in detention last July for associating with two boys he was prohibited from seeing while the charges are pending. Romanowski says his client was merely attempting to avoid the two friends when police swooped in. ''The kid is definitely feeling the pressure,'' Romanowski says. ''He doesn't find it funny. He has found out that the margin for error in his life right now is not what it used to be. There are a lot of people out there just waiting for him to slip up.'' From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 11:01:52 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:01:52 -0800 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 12:17 PM -0500 12/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:22:30PM -0500, Greg Newby wrote: >> >> Bottom line, as usual, is to trust no-one, including ISPs >> or sysadmins that have a strong privacy ethic. > >On the web sites that I maintain, I have a stated policy that we >intend to challenge subpoenas for our web logs and user database. Of >course, talk is cheap, and I'd hope to find funding for lawyers or >pro-bono work. Then again, it's a likely possibility: When I got a >subpoena, I found pro bono counsel (and excellent one too). I'll say what I expect to do. Partly to address some interesting issues about how witnesses may be compelled to travel long distances (beyond the usual countywide travel that noncyberspace cases typically involve). And partly to think aloud on my plans. As Declan says, "talk is cheap," so I may wimp-out, or think better of my plans, or get advice which changes my mind. But here goes: -- if and when I am called to testify in the Bell or Parker re-trials or re-re-trials, I expect to hire no damned shysters -- ditto for a subpoena...I'll try to read the subpoena and understand it as best I can and then comply with it as best I can. (Of course, _serving me_ is problematic. I had a process server make several trips out to my semi-rural hilltop home in 1995 before finally reaching me at home. And that was when I still answering the doorbell. These days I use my peephole, or a t.v. camera I sometimes have set up. I doubt a process server could get to me.) -- if the law is so confusing that I am expected to "retain counsel" to explain it to me, while his $400 an hour meter is running, then the law is an ass -- I was surprised to see so many "affidavits" and "interviews" and "pre-trial statements" from various witnesses in the Parker case. Surely these people must have known that though their presence could have been compelled in Washington state, that they had no obligation to sit down with Federal agents and give interviews! In a nutshell, this has been my plan for the past year or so (subject to modifications, as noted above): If subpoenaed, I'll expect them to provide _all_ transportation and lodging, in advance, in acceptable-quality hotels and with nice transportation. In advance. (I don't lend money to the government--see note below). I'll give no interviews prior to be seated in the witness box. While I can be compelled to testify in a courtroom, I find nothing in the Constitution which says I may be compelled to give pre-trial interviews. (From t.v. shows, I gather it is common for both sides to extensively interview witnesses, getting "depositions," etc. I figure it may be interesting to put this to a test: "Put me on the stand if you can. But you won't know what I'll say until then.") Oh, and no "swearing on a Bible," as I'm not a follower of He Whose Name May Not be Uttered, or whatever name they call their god by. If asked a question, I will take my time to consider my answer and then answer as simply as possible. If I believe the terms in the question are ambiguous, I will ask for them to be clarified. If I am jailed for contempt, for unacceptable reasons, then I expect to take appropriate actions against the kidnappers at a later time. (Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the Constitution says citizens must lend money to the government and then petition to get some of it back later?) A bunch of my friends are involved in "pro se" court issues. While I hope to not waste valuable months of my life, as they have, coming up to speed on shyster jargon, I can't see the average lawyer picked out of a phone book knowing anything more about First and Fourth Amendment sorts of issues than I've picked up over the years. Most of the "court-appointed attorneys" seem to have been especially clueless in anything beyond pleading out a rapist. Anyway, I was not called to testify in the Parker case. In the latest Bell case, I don't know what will happen. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From announce at lga2.nytimes.com Wed Dec 6 08:03:53 2000 From: announce at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:03:53 -0500 Subject: Find more of what's inside NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012061608.IAA15730@toad.com> Dear Member, Thanks for joining the NYTimes.com community. We hope that you are finding our site to be an excellent source of insightful news coverage, in-depth analysis and the best in arts and entertainment. There are a lot of new and useful features on NYTimes.com that may not be immediately evident on our home page. 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From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 08:11:49 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:11:49 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: References: <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206075938.0080caf0@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:17 PM 12/5/00 -0500, Mark Allyn wrote: > >If you want to blab without being traced, go to the local public library >or netcafe. Some airports now have netcafe's that accept cash without >ID. Watch out for surveillance cams (incl. on public streets) if you're really going to attract uniformed attention. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 08:11:54 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:11:54 -0500 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <3A2DC4E7.7B23AFA8@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the >barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders >for ballistic analysis ). Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't afford to treat them as disposable. From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 08:11:54 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:11:54 -0500 Subject: Keystroke monitoring In-Reply-To: <3A2DC710.7F494CFF@lsil.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206081105.00807b10@pop.sprynet.com> At 11:53 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >>> A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. >> >What are the problems with something like the Compaq iPaq? Open HW >design, replaceable OS. Buy for cash. Possession is somewhat obscured. >If you can boot external SW ( no reason why not ) you can check the ROM >integrity. The CPU is relatively quick. Looks OK to me. Has audio i/o >too. Too bad no enet on-board. Audio, eh? If it had a modem it would be a nice portable PGPfone. Anyone ever tried this on a CE handheld? From seanl at literati.org Wed Dec 6 11:23:14 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:23:14 -0800 Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:19:13AM -0600 References: <20001206032639.B21783@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20001206112313.B3190@makoto.literati.org> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:19:13AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: [...] > It's possession of the private keys that will roast your goose. Fortunately the public key can be stored using steganography, or on some medium that can be physically destroyed, or whatever. Another option would be to use an elliptic curve scheme that generates the private key on the fly from a passphrase. Fortunately they can't read your mind yet, though keystroke readers could prove you knew the passphrase, but then again you might claim that since the cops (and anyone else reading your keystrokes) also knew the passphrase, that they had your private key as much as you did. And then there are ways to avoid having your keystrokes read. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/~seanl/ GPG/PGP signed/encrypted email preferred. Finger for public key. Key fingerprint = 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 From return66 at uole.com Wed Dec 6 08:28:27 2000 From: return66 at uole.com (return66 at uole.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:28:27 -0500 Subject: Need Money? Quick Approvals! 6124 Message-ID: <0000274e528d$00005e9a$00004837@from gauifece.cc.net.ei ([256.45.30.4]) by rsi5s2.daidacentotera.chua.caimety.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAA11875 ([256.45.36.257]) > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 16023 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Wed Dec 6 08:28:58 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:28:58 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> <3A2E2B15.DC655711@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A2E6938.B5453B9B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tom Vogt wrote: > > David Honig wrote: > > Hitler's estate would be the natural heir (under US law :-), although I can > > believe that .de would seize it too, if he had no heir, or if they > > didn't like him. > > he had no heir, and I believe the (C) falling to bavaria (not germany!) > was incidental, not planned. The will read something like: "What I possess belongs - in so far as it has any value - to the Party. Should this no longer exist, to the State; should the State also be destroyed, no further decision of mine is necessary. My paintings, in the collections which I have bought in the course of years, have never been collected for private purposes, but only for the extension of a gallery in my home town of Linz on Donau. It is my most sincere wish that this bequest may be duly executed. I nominate as my Executor my most faithful Party comrade, Martin Bormann " Of course, when the testator, the witnesses & almost all their surviving friends were dead, Martin Bormann was heading in the general dirction of the nearest long-range U-boat & a significant fraction of the Red Army was rolling down Unter den Linden in a very cross mood indeed; any relationship between Hitler's will & what actually happened to his possessions was pretty likely to be incidental & unplanned. kEN From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 6 11:33:48 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 11:33:48 -0800 Subject: "Hello, You're Dead" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001206113348.01a2d720@idiom.com> At 11:50 AM 12/6/00 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: >[ukcrypto and Perry's list deleted] >> Dave Del Torto[SMTP:ddt at lsd.com] wrote >> >> >> >> "...Hitting the 5, 6, 7 and 8 buttons on the phone gun fires >> four .22-caliber rounds in quick succession. ..." >> >The article goes on to say that the Men With Guns may now take reaching >for a cell phone as adequate excuse to kill you. Guess you don't get your One Phone Call To Your Lawyer any more... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Dec 6 08:50:29 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:50:29 -0500 Subject: "Hello, You're Dead" Message-ID: [ukcrypto and Perry's list deleted] > Dave Del Torto[SMTP:ddt at lsd.com] wrote > > > > "...Hitting the 5, 6, 7 and 8 buttons on the phone gun fires > four .22-caliber rounds in quick succession. ..." > The article goes on to say that the Men With Guns may now take reaching for a cell phone as adequate excuse to kill you. (Of course, in New York City, just pulling a wallet in response to an apparent mugging can get you shot 40 times by plainsclothes cops). Seeing the subject line, I was reminded more of the case a couple years ago when the Isrealis murdered a man via his own cellphone. A Palestinan, who was known as 'The Engineer' and was allegedly behind a number of terrorist attacks, used a known cellphone. As I recall, the hit went like this... The phone was made to appear 'broken' by the telephone company. It was taken in for repair/replacement. Soon after the new phone was delivered, the Palestinian received a call. The caller asked "Is this [name]?" On receiving an affirmative reply, a small explosive charge detonated in the phone, blowing the Palestinian's head off. Peter Trei From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 09:07:57 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:07:57 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com>; from gbroiles@netbox.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:18:53AM -0800 References: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> A minor clarification: The formal proposal known as "Know Your Customer" was withdrawn (see my back articles on that topic). But other regulations in the same vein require banks to require ID. -Declan On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:18:53AM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:40:08PM -0000, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: > > Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of MTB, > > whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify himself to the > > bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of business, etc. This is > > SOP for other payment systems like credit cards. > > > > It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their merchants. > > No payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable cash system would > > have been equally amenable to merchant screening. Any vendor has the > > right to control whom it does business with, and MTB chose to exercise > > its discretion in this way. > > I don't know if MTB had a lot of discretion - banks are subject to the > federal "know your customer" regulations. You can't get depositor > anonymity from a bank chartered in the US, at least not without at least > one level of corporate indirection (e.g., the bank "knows its customer" > who is a domestic or foreign closely-held corp, who does the bidding of > its unidentified-to-the-bank-and-FINCEN shareholders). > > > The Texas couple in the news recently made a different choice and > > decided to provide payment services for child pornographers, as James > > Donald recommends. Now MTB is still in business (after merging with > > MTL and then FSR) and the Texans are in jail. Which made a better choice? > > Sounds like the Texans knew too much about their customers - if they > operated a content-neutral service which had many, many customers, > one of whom happened to be a child-porn service, they'd be doing fine, > especially if they shut off the child porn people if/when notified by > law enforcement of the activity. Does the FBI shut down AOL and Earthlink > when their subscribers traffic in child porn? > > -- > Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com > PO Box 897 > Oakland CA 94604 > From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 09:17:09 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:17:09 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu>; from gbnewby@ils.unc.edu on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:22:30PM -0500 References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> Message-ID: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 07:22:30PM -0500, Greg Newby wrote: > > Bottom line, as usual, is to trust no-one, including ISPs > or sysadmins that have a strong privacy ethic. On the web sites that I maintain, I have a stated policy that we intend to challenge subpoenas for our web logs and user database. Of course, talk is cheap, and I'd hope to find funding for lawyers or pro-bono work. Then again, it's a likely possibility: When I got a subpoena, I found pro bono counsel (and excellent one too). -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 09:20:16 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:20:16 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@einstein.ssz.com on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:28:39PM -0600 References: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20001206122016.C32016@cluebot.com> Might this be another crankish Jim Choate theory? I think the law is pretty clear: * For most ISPs and dot com sites, there is no general duty to preserve logs for five years, or for any time at all. Gramm-Leach-Bliley may change this when it take affect next year for sites dealing with cc#s; I haven't read up on the specifics. * Common carriers are regulated closely by the FCC and states. (Think: Approval required before raising prices.) ou don't want to be one. -Declan On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:28:39PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > > > The citation was given as the basis of the news story. And it shows that > > there is no five year retention requirement, only that the law is five years > > old. > > What law? > > Actually if you go look at the bottem of that news piece you'll find a > direct reference to CALEA (which I might add says nothing about log > retention for 'commen carrier' or otherwise). > > I'd still like somebody to explain what law was in reference with respect > to requiring log retention for any period, irrespective of how old the law > is. > > Note, this has NOTHING to do with a court order or request from a LEA and > at no point in that article was that claimed. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From jya at pipeline.com Wed Dec 6 09:31:27 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:31:27 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: References: <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200012061735.MAA18400@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Jim Choate blindly wrote: >What law? The law was quoted just below the citation we provided: 18 USC 2703(f). The news report quotation exactly matches what the law says about preservation. Not that you'll read it but here it is again: Here's the source for news story report about data preservation requirement: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/COEFAQs.htm Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United States for nearly five years. 18 U.S.C. 2703(f) requires an electronic communications service provider to "take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process" upon "the request of a governmental entity." This applies in practice only to reasonably small amounts of specified data identified as relevant to a particular case where the service provider already has control over that data. Similarly, as with traditional subpoena powers, issuance of an order to an individual or corporation to produce specified data during the course of an investigation carries with it an obligation not to delete or destroy information falling within the scope of that order when that information is in the persons possession or control. ----- And here is the law cited by the DoJ FAQ: >From the US Code via GPO Access: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html 18 USC 2703(f) (f) Requirement To Preserve Evidence.-- (1) In general.--A provider of wire or electronic communication services or a remote computing service, upon the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process. (2) Period of retention.--Records referred to in paragraph (1) shall be retained for a period of 90 days, which shall be extended for an additional 90-day period upon a renewed request by the governmental entity. ----- Now, remember, "evidence" is what law-industry promoters call what civilians call "information." Evidence is used to force subservience to the law-industry. Information is used to fight those narrow-mindfuckers. So, Jim, stop calling information evidence unless you're bragging about fucking your peabrain. From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 09:42:53 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:42:53 -0500 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3.0.6.32.20001202123008.007df980@pop.sprynet.com> <3A2E2B15.DC655711@ricardo.de> <3A2E6938.B5453B9B@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3A2E7A60.E3FB58A6@ricardo.de> Ken Brown wrote: > The will read something like: good quote. > was rolling down Unter den Linden in a very cross mood indeed; any > relationship between Hitler's will & what actually happened to his > possessions was pretty likely to be incidental & unplanned. "unplanned" intended by me to have the meaning of: "not as in "let's seize the rights to everything he wrote, so we can stop the neo-nazis"". From rah at shipwright.com Wed Dec 6 09:47:32 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:47:32 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001206090449.K6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> <20001206090449.K6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: At 9:04 AM -0800 on 12/6/00, Greg Broiles wrote: > Or am I thinking of something else? You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security number to open a bank account, for any of a number of reasons including credit checks, and checks on how many, um, negative-funded, bank accounts you might have hanging out there before you opened this one. More to the point, since interest is taxable income for individuals, and a tax deductible expense for corporations, social security numbers are required in order to pay you interest. [And, yes, Duncan may be right, you might be able to spoof an SSN at them somehow, but I don't know anyone who's actually done it, admitted it in any public detail, and not been somehow razzed legally for it.] Kind of reminds me of TEFRA, in 1993 or so, which outlawed bearer bonds by making interest payable on them "non-tax-deductible" (taxable, for those in Palm Beach County). [The answer to this "lie to the government, don't get a bank account" problem, which any persistent cypherpunk subscriber knows, is, of course, to have payment systems which don't *need* physical identity for non-repudiation of transactions and the subsequent requirement of the force of a nation-state to make settlement risk manageable: bearer certificates based on cryptographic protocols like blind signatures, which will, frankly, only *really* be possible, soup-withdrawl to nuts-deposit, when a bearer currency issue is *itself* reserved by other digital bearer assets, instead of just a book-entry account somewhere.] Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Dec 6 09:49:41 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:49:41 -0500 Subject: iPaq Message-ID: There's also a Linux port, if you want to kid yourself that you're going to check the OS security yourself. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: mmotyka at lsil.com[SMTP:mmotyka at lsil.com] > Reply To: mmotyka at lsil.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 12:00 PM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: iPaq > > The device has extension ports that allow PCMCIA and Compact Flash. > These adapters are in the $50 range. There are wireless modems available > but they're fairly pricey : ~$350 for the modem, $50.month for the > service. All in all it looks pretty good. Schematics/specs open, Linux/X > already ported. The specs are reasonable ( unlike Palm ) it's a 206MHz > ARM9, USB, Audio, 320x240x12bit display, 16Mb FLASH, 32Mb DRAM if I > recall correctly. Throw in a 512Mb IBM microdrive, CFS, it's not bad. > Looks like the most secure option to me. Gateway SW over USB ( even for > M$ OS ) shouldn't be too tough. I guess you could trust an M$ machine to > handle already encrypted packets. > > From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 03:58:51 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 12:58:51 +0100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001201140935.050f1130@popserver.panix.com> <3A2918B4.AE98EBE9@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A2E29FB.723D2363@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > This is misleading. There is much debate about ownership of the > copyright, whether it has expired (as would normally be the case > after roughly 70 years, whether the licenses sold to other publishers > are valid, etc.). it's been changed to 70 years after death of author recently, at least in the US. that would make the expire date 2015. > Quite odd that the publisher Houghton Mifflin would say they are > donating all royalties since 1979 if in fact no copies have been > published since 1945! > > Even more odd if some of us have copies in our libraries which were > published much more recently than 1945. here's what I wrote: > only copies printed before 1945 are actually legal, am I missing the link between "legal" and "existing", or did you imagine it? From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 10:01:56 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 13:01:56 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <20001206090449.K6575@ideath.parrhesia.com> References: <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> <20001205184008.16124.qmail@nym.alias.net> <20001205111852.D3423@ideath.parrhesia.com> <20001206120757.A32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001206125957.01db0370@mail.well.com> At 09:04 12/6/2000 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: >I'm not a banking law geek, but I believe that there are federal >regs in place known as "know your customer" rules which apply to >depository institutions like banks, credit unions, etc - the >regs which were withdrawn would have required NBFI's (non-bank >financial institutions) to comply with similar rules, as they're >sometimes used instead of banks to avoid the KYC rules. > >Or am I thinking of something else? You're thinking of something slightly different. The Fed-Treasury-FDIC action that caused so much fuss would have made "suggested" KYC rules that apply to banks mandatory. Here's the federal register notice abandoning the propsed KYC regs: http://www.politechbot.com/p-00315.html -Declan From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 10:03:51 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 13:03:51 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001206130307.01db4190@mail.well.com> Oh, and the proposed KYC rules would have required banks to go further than requiring ID (other current rules, as you say, require that) and try to determine source of funds, etc. -Declan >You're thinking of something slightly different. The Fed-Treasury-FDIC >action that caused so much fuss would have made "suggested" KYC rules that >apply to banks mandatory. Here's the federal register notice abandoning >the propsed KYC regs: >http://www.politechbot.com/p-00315.html > >-Declan From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 13:08:13 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:08:13 -0800 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 3:52 PM -0500 12/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >>(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that >>various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit >>travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the >>Constitution says citizens must > >Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like >$25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being called >to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. As I said, it's not my job to buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc. and then fill out a government form. Actually, I remember someone saying during the Parker case that a government travel office would make all travel and lodging arrangements. Not my job to lend money to the government. I'm watching a lawyer on the stand in the Seminole County part of the rolling trial say that he charges $500 an hour to testify in court cases. Sounds like a good fee for me to charge. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 6 04:08:21 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 13:08:21 +0100 Subject: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net References: <20001202202438-r01010600-ab028c0f@10.0.1.3> Message-ID: <3A2E2C35.2168F511@ricardo.de> fogstorm wrote: > So if an Australian puts it on his web site can the German government sue for > copyright infringement? Can they prosecute for violation of their anti Nazi > laws? If a German citizen views it in Amsterdam can his government prosecute > when he returns home? they'll most likely try to, if only to avoid some left-wing magazine headline along the lines of "german government allows nazi propaganda to remain online". there will be NO prosecution for "viewing" it. almost everyone over 60 may have read the damn book, and lots of copies are still around (many people got one for their marriage or other events, and keep them as memoralia(sp?)). this ain't thought-police. you are perfectly free to read this thing. AFAIK you aren't allowed to sell it, but that's it. From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 13:10:14 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:10:14 -0800 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> Message-ID: At 3:41 PM -0500 12/6/00, Russ K wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Wednesday 06 December 2000 11:11, David Honig wrote: >> At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >> >( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the >> >barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders >> >for ballistic analysis ). >> >> Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't >> afford to treat them as disposable. > >Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth >marks and other metal to metal contact. I can't believe I'm reading something so inane. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From jburnes at savvis.net Wed Dec 6 10:12:02 2000 From: jburnes at savvis.net (Jim Burnes) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:12:02 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <00120613210804.05483@reality.eng.savvis.net> On Tuesday 05 December 2000 22:05, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > At 9:06 PM -0500 on 12/5/00, David Honig wrote: > > A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. > > This is why Chaum wants a small cryptographic device with it's own I/O, > certainly. > > We'll get one when there's enough money behind it. Money's edge of the > wedge... > > Cheers, > RAH I think someone out there makes a USB client-side digital certificate device. The only problem is you have to type in your passphrase to unlock probably. PDA's would be better. A PDA with an infrared link to a USB/serial connector would be ideal. Preferably with random voice challenge/response or other biometric. jim -- Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 13:19:09 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:19:09 -0800 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 1:08 PM -0800 12/6/00, Tim May wrote: >At 3:52 PM -0500 12/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >>>(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that >>>various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit >>>travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the >>>Constitution says citizens must >> >>Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like >>$25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being >>called to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. > >As I said, it's not my job to buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc. >and then fill out a government form. > >Actually, I remember someone saying during the Parker case that a >government travel office would make all travel and lodging >arrangements. > >Not my job to lend money to the government. > >I'm watching a lawyer on the stand in the Seminole County part of >the rolling trial say that he charges $500 an hour to testify in >court cases. Sounds like a good fee for me to charge. I mis-spoke. He's not a lawyer...he's a statistics professor. Still, sounds like a good fee to charge for my "expert testimony" on Bell's scheme, should it come down to this. --Tim -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From honig at sprynet.com Wed Dec 6 10:29:37 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:29:37 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <20001206122016.C32016@cluebot.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001206101747.007a32b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:09 PM 12/6/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >* Common carriers are regulated closely by the FCC and states. (Think: >Approval required before raising prices.) ou don't want to be one. Yes, this was brought up recently when I mentioned common carrier protections for financial service providers, like the Texans. It should be possible to separate the non-responsibility-for-content from the *eminent-domain-derived* regulation of the copper-wire-plant monopoly. For instance, a contract printer is not (or should not be) held responsible for the content he prints, though his rates aren't regulated, because he doesn't use the "commons". You *do* want legal recognition of immunity for what clients use your service for, like a common carrier but without the FCC or PUC. Thanks for pointing out that "common carrier" is a tainted/burdened legal term. (I think they are separable functions: the telcos could still be held legally responsible for what you say even if their rates were unregulated.) From jya at pipeline.com Wed Dec 6 11:50:03 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 14:50:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200012061954.OAA03882@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> >From reading the docs at EPIC, it is not clear that the FBI actually got data from the planted device. The USA application dated June 8 asks for a supplemental order of extension of time in order to break in and remove the device. This need was caused by Scarfo's unexpected removal of the equipment. We have not been presented with the initial USA application and the initial order, at least not that I've seen. Interesting possibilities are: 1. The FBI is bluffing that it got incriminating data and is using the applications and orders as window dressing or camouflage to hide their failure. Or to hide that they got evidence some other way. 2. The FBI captured some stuff but is faking the rest. 3. Scarfo discovered the device, or suspected it, and removed the equipment in order to sanitize it, or even planted his own device aimed at the feds. Say he rigged a program to endlessly type "fuck you," Or played Bin Laden's taunts. He's a fair comp whiz so all sorts of good stuff may have happened. 4. If Scarfo got the device, by now defenses against it have been deployed, maybe even generated a tidy black market for those who want to snoop and/or snarl the feds by redirecting their own devices. From rkeni at cyou.com Wed Dec 6 12:41:36 2000 From: rkeni at cyou.com (Russ K) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:41:36 -0500 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 790 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 12:52:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 15:52:43 -0500 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> At 11:01 12/6/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >(Of course, _serving me_ is problematic. I had a process server make >several trips out to my semi-rural hilltop home in 1995 before finally >reaching me at home. And that was when I still answering the doorbell. >These days I use my peephole, or a t.v. camera I sometimes have set up. I >doubt a process server could get to me.) When I was served with a subpoena in the CJ Parker trial, I had had a party the night before and let a friend of a friend sleep over in my living room. The process server showed up around 7:30 am the following morning and my houseguest let him into the foyer. Grr. >-- I was surprised to see so many "affidavits" and "interviews" and >"pre-trial statements" from various witnesses in the Parker case. Surely >these people must have known that though their presence could have been >compelled in Washington state, that they had no obligation to sit down >with Federal agents and give interviews! When I was subpoenaed in the Parker trial, I did not give any pre trial statement or affidavits or whatnot. (There's no incentive for me to do so, and presumably little incentive for list members to do so, unless they see it as a way to avoid further involvement.) My lawyer was the person who had contact with DoJ. >(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that various >witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit travel expense >receipts." Is this true? What part of the Constitution says citizens must Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like $25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being called to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. -Declan From soosha0j03 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 6 16:02:44 2000 From: soosha0j03 at yahoo.com (IT IS SHOOOSH) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:02:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi Message-ID: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Daer Reciever... i am a stuend in an American University... and i am taking a public speaking course... i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my audience that seatbelts are not safe as we thought...there is a stydu done recently in England that showed that... i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more thank you Rasha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 16:20:43 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:20:43 -0800 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 4:02 PM -0800 12/6/00, IT IS SHOOOSH wrote: >Daer Reciever... >i am a stuend in an American University... >and i am taking a public speaking course... >i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final >speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my >audience that seatbelts are not safe as we >thought...there is a stydu done recently in England >that showed that... > >i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > >thank you >Rasha > Daer Reciever Rasha, i am happi you r a stuend. amrika needs good stuends. baste on yur speling, i think u shuld becum a teecher. --tim -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From mis at itiaccess.com Wed Dec 6 16:23:21 2000 From: mis at itiaccess.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:23:21 -0800 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> Message-ID: <000001c05fe3$e89a11c0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1699 bytes Desc: not available URL: From barryken at telusplanet.net Wed Dec 6 15:23:31 2000 From: barryken at telusplanet.net (Barry Kennedy) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:23:31 -0700 Subject: IP: ASIO cleared to hack into computers [NO COMMENT cept hope it does happen here djf] Message-ID: <000601c05fdb$8cfde560$1ec4b8a1@gov.edmonton.ab.ca> this sight sucks it doesn't tell you anything -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 357 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 17:02:17 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:02:17 -0800 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:48 PM -0500 12/6/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > > Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote: >> >> At 4:02 PM -0800 12/6/00, IT IS SHOOOSH wrote: >> >Daer Reciever... >> >i am a stuend in an American University... >> >and i am taking a public speaking course... >> >i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final >> >speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my >> >audience that seatbelts are not safe as we >> >thought...there is a stydu done recently in England >> >that showed that... >> > >> >i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more >> > >> >thank you >> >Rasha >> > >> >> Daer Reciever Rasha, >> >> i am happi you r a stuend. amrika needs good stuends. >> baste on yur speling, i think u shuld becum a teecher. >> >> --tim >> >Anyone else suspect that the original message (from a >throw-away yahoo account) is a troll, >and wonder if Tim might have been the author? > >[Tim, perhaps you're not, but replying so quickly in this >manner to the original message (which is a canonical >example of the way you satirize uneducated blacks) >is suspicious to say the least :-] First, this is not how I satirize uneducated--or even educated--blacks. I didn't use any ebonics code words, nor did I mention niggaz, crack hoes, or welfare entitlements. Rasha sounds like the typical illiterate student who has to take remedial English upon her arrival at Beaver College. I had a roommate in college who was one of these types, having to take the equivalent of "English for Dummies." He couldn't spell, he couldn't construct a sentence, and he couldn't read worth a damn. And that was 29 years ago. At a UC campus. I expect that standards have declined even further since then, especially as college has now become just an extension of high school. In fact, I expect that a lot of places like Beaver College, Lower Ohio River Valley State College, and Yankton Practical University are all being swamped by illiterate and innumerate students who barely graduated from their already-abysmal high schools. When a university education is an entitlement, gud stuends like Rasha are the result. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From alan at clueserver.org Wed Dec 6 17:14:09 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 17:14:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: > Anyone else suspect that the original message (from a > throw-away yahoo account) is a troll, > and wonder if Tim might have been the author? > > [Tim, perhaps you're not, but replying so quickly in this > manner to the original message (which is a canonical > example of the way you satirize uneducated blacks) > is suspicious to say the least :-] For some reason I am reminded of a line from the movie _A Shoggoth On The Roof_ (yes, there is such a beastie.): "Every one of us has a shoggoth on the roof. Not a metaphorical shoggoth, but a REAL Shoggoth! And how does he stay there you might ask? TENTACLES!" alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From bear at sonic.net Wed Dec 6 18:34:13 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:34:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: >What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > No, I'm sorry. If you wanted a fucking mailing list you're in the wrong place. There are plenty of lists devoted to fucking, but this isn't one of them. This list is devoted to cryptography and its geopolitical implications. Sorry about the mixup. Bear, Mildly annoyed by mindless dweebs who use "fucking" as though it meant something bad.... From carlstephen33 at writeme.com Wed Dec 6 19:08:06 2000 From: carlstephen33 at writeme.com (carlstephen33 at writeme.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:08:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [#1] Message-ID: <200012070308.TAA01474@toad.com> NEW AND EXCITING!! http://3506561041/iindex22/legal.html This Is A Weekly Mail List. To Be Removed Permanently Email permenentremoval at excite.com with "remove" somewhere in the subject line. PERMANENT REMOVAL!! From carlstephen33 at writeme.com Wed Dec 6 19:08:20 2000 From: carlstephen33 at writeme.com (carlstephen33 at writeme.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:08:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [#2] Message-ID: <200012070308.TAA01499@toad.com> HERE IS THE NEW SITE!! Flash Technology!! this is the future!! http://3506561041/iindex22/newflash.htm This Is A Weekly Mail List. To Be Removed Permanently Email permenentremoval at excite.com with "remove" somewhere in the subject line. PERMANENT REMOVAL!! From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:19:34 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:19:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001206075938.0080caf0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, David Honig wrote: > At 09:17 PM 12/5/00 -0500, Mark Allyn wrote: > > > >If you want to blab without being traced, go to the local public library > >or netcafe. Some airports now have netcafe's that accept cash without > >ID. > > Watch out for surveillance cams (incl. on public streets) if you're really > going to attract uniformed attention. It's also worth mentioning that many city police departments put IR and hi-res video around town. The Austin PD has several camera suites around town. One is on the top of the police station and monitors 6th Street (the major non-college hangout). Here in Austin we have bicycle cops who sit around using NVG's to catch people urinating in public and throwing up (public intoxication). There are at least a thousand video camera's on the major highways and a handful of primary intersections. Then there are private camera's as well. I have a friend who has 4 channels at 5fpm on a 'secret' webpage that surround his house. And just about every business you go into has video gear, some pointed out the door. It's amazing if you walk around looking for this stuff and keep a list. Anyone doing anything that might attract uniformed attention should be going the major Ninja route... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 6 19:26:09 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 19:26:09 -0800 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001206192609.01c1a740@idiom.com> At 05:14 PM 12/6/00 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote: >For some reason I am reminded of a line from the movie _A Shoggoth On The >Roof_ (yes, there is such a beastie.): > > "Every one of us has a shoggoth on the roof. Not a metaphorical > shoggoth, but a REAL Shoggoth! And how does he stay there you might > ask? TENTACLES!" YOW! Where can I find it? (Or how do I keep the Shoggoth from finding me?)(Oh. Not mentioning its name.)(Oh..........) ]-9028iu3r =EQ-WSD9A0fc8zuedxtg v-=]3wr 14508eux[;colf8itjmkqsvA] zx=]F\QSF*$q(*iztfg v\3-=Wqa(zidxcz0po[ikf]3-wpe[o04pirdfx=[] 0-p3iwsdARECfo0jygvh5]-9r3ud -g]94yut793]1q vt57575758yrtg043=qierg[vkrc kc=re[dsqaacdrsxz~~~ From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:33:08 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:33:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <200012061735.MAA18400@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, John Young wrote: > Jim Choate blindly wrote: > > >What law? > > The law was quoted just below the citation we provided: > 18 USC 2703(f). > > The news report quotation exactly matches what the law > says about preservation. Not that you'll read it but here it is again: Yeah, and it matches exactly what I said. It takes a court order, where is the law that doesn't take a court order, that makes this mandatory all the time?. This is what what the Europeans are talking about. They are talking about making it mandatory to keep all logs all the time. This is a big difference. The US representative is saying that the distinction between requiring me as a system operator to cooperate with the law via court orders and such or requiring me to keep my logs all the time is a small difference. Maybe you can't get it, but it is a HUGE!!!! difference. I'm telling you, dude, up the med's... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:37:48 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:37:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001206101747.007a32b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, David Honig wrote: > At 12:09 PM 12/6/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > >* Common carriers are regulated closely by the FCC and states. (Think: > >Approval required before raising prices.) ou don't want to be one. > > Yes, this was brought up recently when I mentioned common carrier > protections > for financial service providers, like the Texans. It should > be possible to separate the non-responsibility-for-content from the > *eminent-domain-derived* regulation of the copper-wire-plant monopoly. There are also issues of user rights. The 'common' means that it is a common resource for all in the community, shared. As a consequence any 'filtering' is highly injurious. Something to do with the 1st maybe?... But as a consequence it's other activities are regulated in the 'public interest'. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:41:56 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:41:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Oh, and no "swearing on a Bible," as I'm not a follower of He Whose They don't do that anymore. > In the latest Bell case, I don't know what will happen. Good luck if you need it. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Wed Dec 6 18:45:15 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:45:15 -0700 (MST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What does this look like, homework "R" us?! Please enlighten us as to which university you are going to, so we can forward your mail to the English department: it sounds like they could use a good housecleaning. As for seatbelts: I would suggest that you never use one yourself--perhaps we can all be so lucky as to see you dead on the side of the road. Perhaps we could even hold a cotillion on your grave. On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, IT IS SHOOOSH wrote: > Daer Reciever... > i am a stuend in an American University... > and i am taking a public speaking course... > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > that showed that... > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > thank you > Rasha > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email galt at inconnu.isu.edu From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:46:16 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:46:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: <20001206112313.B3190@makoto.literati.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Sean R. Lynch wrote: > On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:19:13AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > [...] > > It's possession of the private keys that will roast your goose. > > Fortunately the public key can be stored using steganography, or on some > medium that can be physically destroyed, or whatever. That sort of destroys the 'public' part of that doesn't it? This takes us into the "if you've got a channel to send the code on how to decode the public key, why not send the public key privately? And if the channel is safe enough to send the key privately why not send the message itself? There is also the point that if there is a public key and you claim it valid then by assumption you're also claiming there is a private key. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Wed Dec 6 18:46:35 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:46:35 -0700 (MST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: Amateur ;P~~~ 1 for effort, but 0 for style. On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > Subject: hi > > > > Daer Reciever... > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > that showed that... > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > thank you > > Rasha > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email galt at inconnu.isu.edu From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Wed Dec 6 16:48:05 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:48:05 -0500 Subject: hi Message-ID: > Tim May[SMTP:tcmay at got.net] wrote: > > At 4:02 PM -0800 12/6/00, IT IS SHOOOSH wrote: > >Daer Reciever... > >i am a stuend in an American University... > >and i am taking a public speaking course... > >i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > >speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > >audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > >thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > >that showed that... > > > >i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > >thank you > >Rasha > > > > Daer Reciever Rasha, > > i am happi you r a stuend. amrika needs good stuends. > baste on yur speling, i think u shuld becum a teecher. > > --tim > Anyone else suspect that the original message (from a throw-away yahoo account) is a troll, and wonder if Tim might have been the author? [Tim, perhaps you're not, but replying so quickly in this manner to the original message (which is a canonical example of the way you satirize uneducated blacks) is suspicious to say the least :-] Peter From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 17:51:06 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:51:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Russ K wrote: > Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth > marks and other metal to metal contact. So the moral of the story is... If you want to destroy the potential barrel you'll need to: - Have replacement barrels purchased in a non-traceable manner. - Have some mechanism to brush or scratch the inside of the barrel, - Apply a corrosive and allow it to thin the barrel significantly. - Then twist barrel and heat until red hot. - Then handle with non-metallic tools only until discarded. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 6 19:52:39 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:52:39 -0800 Subject: Bill Clinton belatedly decides that pot smoking should not be criminal In-Reply-To: <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Gee, Bill, you're only about 6-8 years too late: --excerpt-- Wednesday December 6 10:15 PM ET Clinton: Pot Smoking Should Not Be Prison Offense LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - President Clinton (news - web sites), who tried to avoid the stigma of smoking marijuana by saying he never ''inhaled,'' tells Rolling Stone magazine that people should not be jailed for using or selling small amounts of the drug. --end excerpt-- Instead of pushing for legislation in '93-94, Clinton is now opining that all of those hundreds of thousands of folks his Drug Warriors put in in prison maybe shouldn't be there. Something tells me the New Bill will soon be bashing Carnivore, CALEA, Clipper, Echelon, and all other things Janet Reno, Louis Freeh, Jamie Gorelick, and all of the other Drug Warriors and Ninja Raiders were pushing so hard. We may even see the New Bill say he was never in favor of burning 90 people alive in Waco for the sin of believing in a bizarre variant of Christianity. Of course, he probably did the RS interview when he thought Bush was going to win and his party would be the Disloyal Opposition, railing against Carnivore, no knock raids, sentencing enhancements, the persecution of Jim Bill, CALEA, and so on. The New Bill may have to modify his new radicalism in light of the possibility that Algore and his ZOG Veep may manage, through the cleverness of their shysters, to pull a victory out of the ashes. Revised version, in the December 23 "Letters to the Editor": "Actually, I was misquoted in that "Rolling Stone" article. What I actually said was that Sen. Clinton and I are both behind President Gore's Campaign to Save the Children Act. If those who traffic in the Evil Weed think they can hide behind the Constitution, they'd better watch out for the pre-dawn raids!" --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From measl at mfn.org Wed Dec 6 18:30:54 2000 From: measl at mfn.org (J.A. Terranson) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:30:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:50:41 -0500 > From: Islam M. Guemey > To: IT IS SHOOOSH , cypherpunks at toad.com > Subject: Re: hi > > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? The kind you fucking signed up for idiot! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > Subject: hi > > > > Daer Reciever... > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > that showed that... > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > thank you > > Rasha > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > > -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin at mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... -------------------------------------------------------------------- From islamguemey at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 17:50:41 2000 From: islamguemey at earthlink.net (Islam M. Guemey) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:50:41 -0500 Subject: hi References: <20001207000244.3983.qmail@web901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> What kind of fucking mailing list is this? ----- Original Message ----- From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM Subject: hi > Daer Reciever... > i am a stuend in an American University... > and i am taking a public speaking course... > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > that showed that... > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > thank you > Rasha > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Wed Dec 6 19:23:41 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:23:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: <002101c05ff0$1b97d920$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: I'll guarantee you one thing, nobody on this list knows a damn thing about fucking. You've come to the wrong place. MacN On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > Subject: hi > > > > Daer Reciever... > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > that showed that... > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > thank you > > Rasha > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 6 19:27:26 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:27:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: hi Message-ID: toad.com is technicaly deprecated and any current subscribers should move to one of the alternate servers. The vast majority of discussion does not get sent to toad.com. There are currently seven servers to choose from. One server homepage at, http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html The current list is focused on cryptography, civil liberties, and economics. There is quite a bit of secondary chatter on a variety of topics. Sending viruses, suggesting the list be closed to non-members, subscribing the list to various sources of spam, asking for bomb info, and porno being the most popular off-topic topics. The most asked question is probably "How the hell do I get off this list?" or more accurately 'unsuvscribe'. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > Subject: hi > > > > Daer Reciever... > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > that showed that... > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > thank you > > Rasha > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > From francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com Wed Dec 6 12:41:00 2000 From: francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com (francois.xavier.bodin at winealley.com) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:41 +0100 Subject: Meet us on Wine Alley Message-ID: <200012062048.OAA26674@einstein.ssz.com> Hello! I found your address on a site about wine, food and good living. I thought that you will be interested by the services that our site offers. www.wine-alley.com is a virtual Club for all those interested in wine in both a professional and personal capacity. We now have more than 3900 members, both amateur and in the trade who use our site to discuss wine, buy and sell it and tell us about the best sources. Club members use the Newsgroup of www.wine-alley.com to exchange information and experiences. Only the other day someone asked how much a certain rare wine was worth, I asked for more information about the grape variety, which doesn't grow in France. Currently there have been more than 717 questions and replies. There is also the small ads. column. Among the 7 adverts placed this week there have been some really good deals including a magnum of 1945 Pichon Lalande and a 1947 Cheval blanc! Let me make it clear - www.wine-alley.com itself does not sell or buy wine: we simply offer our members the facilites for making their own arrangements. www.wine-alley.com is also a site supplying information in real time, particularly the latest news from winegrowers and makers via the French Press Agency (AFP). We also have a database of more than 21,000 wines with information supplied directly to the site by winegrowers co-operatives and specialist magazines. I should be delighted if you would come and join us. At www.wine-alley.com you will find similarly-minded people who just want to share their love of wine. Kind regards Frangois Xavier Bodin, Manager of the Online Club fx.bodin at winealley.com PS. Registering with the www.wine-alley.com club is absolutely free and commits you to nothing. If you are not interested in my offer, please excuse this letter; I am sorry to have bothered you. To prevent further unwanted intrusions please click on the following link, your email will be automatically removed from our list. http://www.wine-alley.com/wines/desmail.asp?id=307954&l=uk From declan at well.com Wed Dec 6 19:49:06 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:49:06 -0500 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 01:08:13PM -0800 References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 01:08:13PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > Actually, I remember someone saying during the Parker case that a > government travel office would make all travel and lodging > arrangements. My memory is hazy, but I believe this is correct. The form was for incidentals like cab fare, meals,etc. -Declan From ds2000 at mediaone.net Wed Dec 6 22:00:04 2000 From: ds2000 at mediaone.net (DS) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 00:00:04 -0600 Subject: ip: Guard tapped for infowar duties Message-ID: >From UPI, http://www.vny.com/cf/News/upidetail.cfm?QID=142127 - Guard tapped for infowar duties Wednesday, 6 December 2000 18:39 (ET) Guard tapped for infowar duties By PAMELA HESS WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 (UPI) -- The Pentagon formally tapped the National Guard and reserves to shore up the Defense Department's information warfare apparatus Wednesday, calling for 182 reserve officers and enlisted staff with information technology backgrounds to form five support teams. The teams -- known as "joint reserve information operations and information assurance organizations" -- will be on the Pentagon's front line of information warfare. The Defense Department has had a difficult time keeping highly trained IT specialists when far more lucrative offers abound in the private sector. However, many of those skills are resident in the reserve component, where part-time soldiers work full time in information technology. "Members of the Reserve and National Guard are often way ahead by the very nature of their civilian employment, trained in their workplaces to exploit technology," said Deputy Defense Secretary Rudy DeLeon. Because computer work lends itself to telecommuting, the reserve support groups will not necessarily be physically located near the organizations they support. Computer networks will allow them to carry out their duties at "remote" locations. The teams could take on myriad operations, including enemy computer network attacks, defense of U.S. computer networks, psychological operations, electronic warfare, military deception, operational security, intelligence support, vulnerability assessment, incident response and Web site reviews, according to a Pentagon source. DeLeon approved a plan to establish five teams, beginning in 2001. The teams would encompass up to 600 people by 2007, and would directly support the National Security Agency, the Information Operations Technical Center, both at Ft. Meade, Md; the Defense Information Security Agency and the Joint Task Force for Computer Network Defense, in Arlington, Va.; and the Joint Information Operations Center at Kelly Air Force Base, Texas. -- Copyright 2000 by United Press International. All rights reserved. -- -- Dan S --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Thu Dec 7 00:48:09 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 01:48:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wasn't ssz down a while ago? Helluva choice here: a working deprecated server or a yo-yo non-deprecated one.... On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > toad.com is technicaly deprecated and any current subscribers should move > to one of the alternate servers. The vast majority of discussion does not > get sent to toad.com. There are currently seven servers to choose from. > > One server homepage at, > > http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html > > The current list is focused on cryptography, civil liberties, and > economics. There is quite a bit of secondary chatter on a variety of > topics. Sending viruses, suggesting the list be closed to non-members, > subscribing the list to various sources of spam, asking for bomb info, and > porno being the most popular off-topic topics. The most asked question is > probably "How the hell do I get off this list?" or more accurately > 'unsuvscribe'. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > > > What kind of fucking mailing list is this? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "IT IS SHOOOSH" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 7:02 PM > > Subject: hi > > > > > > > Daer Reciever... > > > i am a stuend in an American University... > > > and i am taking a public speaking course... > > > i have this week to give a persuasive speech (my final > > > speech)...i thought of doing it about persuading my > > > audience that seatbelts are not safe as we > > > thought...there is a stydu done recently in England > > > that showed that... > > > > > > i dont know,,is it a good topic,,or can u give me more > > > > > > thank you > > > Rasha > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email galt at inconnu.isu.edu From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Dec 7 01:59:10 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 01:59:10 -0800 Subject: hi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001207015910.01c8f8f0@idiom.com> At 01:48 AM 12/7/00 -0700, John Galt wrote: >Wasn't ssz down a while ago? Helluva choice here: a working deprecated >server or a yo-yo non-deprecated one.... Some servers do go down on occasion. SSZ had an ISDN widget burn out. Toad.com has been deprecated for several years. Also, it's not the most reliable machine - crackers periodically attack it, and it occasionally has hardware or load problems. There are other machines - cypherpunks-request at cyberpass.net is one of the most-used, and Jim's web pages on SSZ point to the current list of other ones. Thanks! 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Your AdultFriendFinder.com Diva From nytdirect at nytimes.com Thu Dec 7 01:25:11 2000 From: nytdirect at nytimes.com (The New York Times Direct) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 04:25:11 -0500 Subject: Today's Headlines from NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012071045.CAA11236@toad.com> TODAY'S HEADLINES The New York Times on the Web Thursday, December 7, 2000 ------------------------------------------------------------ For news updated throughout the day, visit www.nytimes.com QUOTE OF THE DAY ========================= "We think this generation is wonderful in every way, but we worry that unless something changes, we're going to lose a lot of them." - WILLIAM R. FITZSIMMONS, Harvard dean, on the stress of the college admissions process. Full Story: http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07ADMI.html BUSINESS ========================= Documents on Design of Explorer Reveal a Series of Compromises http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07FORD.html Profit Warning by Bank of America Sets Off Big Retreat http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07STOX.html U.S. Looking at SmithKline Effort to Block Generic Drug http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07DRUG.html Accounting Board Eases Stance on Mergers http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07ACCO.html /--------------------- ADVERTISEMENT ---------------------\ Mark the elections with a presidential screensaver To celebrate the elections, NYTimes.com has created a Presidents screensaver that captures some of history's finest moments from The New York Times Photo Archives. Enjoy these images every day on your PC or Mac, absolutely free. http://www.nytimes.com/partners/screensaver/index.html?ibd \---------------------------------------------------------/ INTERNATIONAL ========================= In Ruined Liberia, Its Despoiler Sits Pretty http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/world/07LIBE.html U.S. Businessman Found Guilty of Espionage by Russian Court http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/world/07RUSS.html Suspect in New Year's Terror Plot Is Arrested in Algeria http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/world/07TERR.html 2 Pro-Democracy Party Leaders Given Prison Sentences in China http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/world/07BEIJ.html NATIONAL ========================= Ease Up, Top Universities Tell Stressed Applicants http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07ADMI.html Waiting for a President, Capital Exults Over Pandas http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07PAND.html Army Corps Falsified Data for a Project, Study Says http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07CORP.html Suspended Rabbi Quits Seminary Presidency http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/national/07RABB.html SPORTS ========================= Knicks No Match as Nelson Ties Auerbach http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/sports/07KNIC.html Nets Stay in Free Fall as Marbury Sits Again http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/sports/07NETS.html A Fullback, but Much, Much More http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/sports/07RHOD.html Memories Are Bitter as Jets Prepare for Raiders http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/sports/07JETS.html TECHNOLOGY ========================= Motorola Deal With Canadian Supplier http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07MOTO.html Big Merger in Net Access for Europe http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/technology/07NET.html Profit Warning by Bank of America Sets Off Big Retreat http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/business/07STOX.html Building the Latin American Internet http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/technology/07DATA.html ARTS ========================= Looking for the Real John Lennon http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/arts/07NOTE.html U2: Divinely and Romantically, Embracing a Higher Love http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/arts/07IRVI.html Restoring Swirling Cloaks and Passion to 'Il Trovatore' http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/arts/07TROV.html Ballet Hispanico: Delving Deftly Into the Life of a Revered Spanish Composer http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/arts/07EYES.html NEW YORK REGION ========================= Hot Economy Cooling Down? Not New York's http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/nyregion/07YORK.html E.P.A. Gives Its Plan on Hudson River PCB's, but a Fight Lies Ahead http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/nyregion/07HUDS.html Giuliani Leads New Effort to Take Control of the Schools http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/nyregion/07MAYO.html Report Finds Police Abuse Unpunished http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/nyregion/07CCRB.html OP-ED COLUMNISTS ========================= By BOB HERBERT: Keep Them Out! The tactics have changed, but the goal remains depressingly the same: Keep the African- Americans out of the voting booths. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/opinion/07HERB.html By WILLIAM SAFIRE: Al Gore Agonistes There are several ways the presidential election can be resolved, and the victor in all of them is Gov. George W. Bush. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/opinion/07SAFI.html HOW TO CHANGE YOUR SUBSCRIPTION ------------------------------------------------------------ You received these headlines because you requested The New York Times Direct e-mail service. To cancel delivery, change delivery options, change your e-mail address or sign up for other newsletters, see http://www.nytimes.com/email HOW TO ADVERTISE ------------------------------------------------------------ For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson Racer at alyson at nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo From freematt at coil.com Thu Dec 7 02:39:35 2000 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 05:39:35 -0500 Subject: Bill Clinton belatedly decides that pot smoking should not be criminal In-Reply-To: References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Tim May wrote: >Instead of pushing for legislation in '93-94, Clinton is now opining >that all of those hundreds of thousands of folks his Drug Warriors >put in in prison maybe shouldn't be there. The US Corrections System currently has 458,000 Drug War Prisoners. Plus the number of people under some form of correctional supervision -- jail, prison, probation, or parole -- has reached a record 6.3 million. Go to the Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) semiannual report on corrections. That report, as well as a treasure trove of related statistics is available online at . Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month) Matthew Gaylor, 1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd., PMB 176, Columbus, OH 43229 (614) 313-5722 Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/ ************************************************************************** From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 05:11:54 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:11:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help In-Reply-To: <002101c05ee8$f2266500$03000004@moonshine> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Islam M. Guemey wrote: > Sounds like Stephen King's 'The Plant" All right. > > Question: What has this got to do with a hacking mailing list? Cypherpunks isn't a hacking mailing list. You should get off toad.com, it's a dead site. See, http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 05:15:04 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:15:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A2F5BDC.D17B836A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Ken Brown wrote: > I wonder what they think of Muslim women who go completely veiled? (I > don't know if you have any in Austin but there are quite a few in > London). Can't say. Austin is a very! cosmopolitan town. We've got folks of just about every type. Is your assertion that veiled Muslim women are inherently criminal? Muslim dress isn't very 'ninja' if you think about it at all. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 05:28:36 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:28:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: RIP cracked via encryption? [The Register] Message-ID: Article about RIP being cracked because a mechanism has been found that makes it impossible to hand over keys. http://www.theregister.co.uk ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 05:30:28 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:30:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: US saves Iridium Message-ID: This is on several sites, visit your favorite. Supposedly so people wouldn't be upset by the burn up re-entry. So there's a two year reprieve. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From auto9950013 at hushmail.com Thu Dec 7 04:55:05 2000 From: auto9950013 at hushmail.com (auto9950013 at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:55:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Snow White worm, identified as... Message-ID: <200012071403.GAA13314@user3.hushmail.com> The heavily armed white supremacist, lying, hypocritical, scumbag Tim "I don't hate Jews, but?" May, Spews: >The New Bill may have to modify his new radicalism in light of the >possibility that Algore and his ZOG Veep may manage, through the >cleverness of their shysters, to pull a victory out of the ashes." From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Dec 7 08:49:05 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 08:49:05 -0800 Subject: Bill Clinton belatedly decides that pot smoking should not be criminal In-Reply-To: References: <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001206152718.02022dd0@mail.well.com> <20001206224906.B6983@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207084259.01ed6a80@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 05:39 AM 12/7/2000 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote: > The US Corrections System currently has 458,000 Drug War Prisoners. This figure may be a substantial under estimate, for it is fairly common practice in some courts, when someone is charged with a serious victimless illegal act, to offer a plea bargain where he pleads guilty to a crime that in theory supposedly has a victim, despite the absence of any complainant, a crime somehow connected to theft, guns and violence, despite the absence of any specific identifiable person robbed or threatened by these guns or violence. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG IMbO+yh1UkDtUkPKlB6E7DsnRwamnzIDr1j5upMw 4wsWH9+U/GwzrU3OioU3UGXbpCqEEXt4oiSwC3KLT From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Dec 7 08:59:00 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 08:59:00 -0800 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: References: < Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207085447.01e46948@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 10:20 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the > > US? > > > > I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. At 10:25 AM 12/7/2000 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > I would be surprised if you didn't need at least a tax ID number, myself. Many years ago I, as a non resident of the US and non citizen of the US, opened an account in US dollars at a US branch of the bank of America without a social security number or a tax ID number. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG MfEDmSJiMYlcOEQBhlqUxwBSUTHW1kq6y5nnKsOx 4kxay6Xr+ylDqWbjRvUsznWW6aIAzbaL/ZAaLQbk6 From tcmay at got.net Thu Dec 7 09:12:36 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:12:36 -0800 Subject: Tim is innocent was Re: hi In-Reply-To: <20001207102709.A13683@tightrope.demon.co.uk> References: <20001207102709.A13683@tightrope.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: At 10:27 AM +0000 12/7/00, Steve Mynott wrote: >On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:02:17PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >> Rasha sounds like the typical illiterate student who has to take >> remedial English upon her arrival at Beaver College. I had a roommate >> in college who was one of these types, having to take the equivalent >> of "English for Dummies." He couldn't spell, he couldn't construct a >> sentence, and he couldn't read worth a damn. > >Although I dislike, as ever, Tim's tone in these matters he has, as he >often does, a valid point hidden under his bitterness and his >experience at an American university is similar to my own, more recent, >experiences at English universities. > >In a basic course that purported to teach "economics" (actually a >dumbed down blend of vague sociology and Keynesianism) the majority of >students were foreign and had a poor grasp of the English language. > >The level of debate was poor and the lecturer had an easy job. > >I am not racist against foreign students and think poking fun at poor >English isn't constructive (they generally speak English better than I >speak their own language) but there seems to me something basically >broken about a system which doesn't teach basic English _before_ trying >to teach complex ideas in that language. Nor am I a racist. I don't even believe the concept of "race" is a meaningful one. After all, the latest evidence from mitochondrial DNA studies is that nearly everyone in the world is descended from a group which was in Africa about 50,000 years ago. A mere blink of an eye. However, I believe people and groups of people, through their culture, vary in their approach to education. Few can dispute that Jews are very strongly represented in medicine, law, science, and professions in general...and underrepresented in sports, for example. Few can dispute the opposite about blacks, at least in America. There are well-known _cultural_ reasons for this. Without even giving the ethnic group for these statements, it is obvious which ones they belong to: "My son, the _doctor_." "Books are for whiteys." The role of culture is readily apparent at public libraries in Silicon Valley. Large numbers of Asians, men and women, usually in couples, with large numbers of Asian children hauling armloads of books. And Asian children dominate the science fairs, the engineering programs. (The Vietnamese do especially well. This was noticeable to many of us as early as 1980-83, when the Valedictorians and Salutatorians--the top students--at area high schools were largely "boat people." These BPs had "floated under the Golden Gate Bridge in rafts," as I like to say, and yet several years later they had mastered enough English to dominate their high schools. It was seeing this that finished off any sympathy I had that black and Mexican students were failing because they hadn't mastered English, blah blah blah. I realized it was culture, pressure from parents, and desire to succeed.) One could look at the success of blacks who are from the West Indies, and who tend to be academically-oriented, to see that culture is more important than race. Many blacks from the Dominican Republic, even dirt-poor Haiti, are doctors and lawyers. The issue remains culture. Perhaps a remnant of slavery, perhaps a remnant of the plantation lifetstyle. Whatever. They must change this culture. Whitey and Big Brother can't do it for them. The black family in America is fragmented, drug use is rampant, children are strongly, strongly discouraged by their peers and their mothers (the fathers are absent, in most cases) from academically excelling. A culture of "deliberate slacking," like a union shop that is on a work slowdown. Those who excel, academically, are seen as "white inside" with a variety of deprecating names applied to them. Obviously this is not true in all cases. There are black scientists and black doctors, and there are Jewish tramps and winos, Asian drug dealers. But the "distributions" basically fit what I have described. And many black intellectuals, dismissed by other blacks as Unca Toms and "race traitors," are saying the same thing with increasing concern about their culture. Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, many others. Biologically, it is just plain crazy to think that groups which only recently scattered into Europe, Japan, Australia, and other corners of the world have evolved different brain structures. They haven't. But cultures can change in the blink of an eye, in a few decades. This is what is at issue. Call me a culturalist, but not a racist. Correlation is not causation. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From seanl at literati.org Thu Dec 7 09:15:02 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:15:02 -0800 Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:46:16PM -0600 References: <20001206112313.B3190@makoto.literati.org> Message-ID: <20001207091502.A30601@nietzsche.literati.org> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:46:16PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > > On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Sean R. Lynch wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 07:19:13AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > > [...] > > > It's possession of the private keys that will roast your goose. > > > > Fortunately the public key can be stored using steganography, or on some > > medium that can be physically destroyed, or whatever. > > That sort of destroys the 'public' part of that doesn't it? This takes us > into the "if you've got a channel to send the code on how to decode the > public key, why not send the public key privately? And if the channel is > safe enough to send the key privately why not send the message itself? > > There is also the point that if there is a public key and you claim it > valid then by assumption you're also claiming there is a private key. Eek. Sorry. I meant the private key could be stored steganographically. And the public key need only be attached to your nym. Now the trick is not leaving anything around that might be used to link you to your nym. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/users/seanl/ Key fingerprint = 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 GPG/PGP encrypted/signed email preferred. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Thu Dec 7 06:21:18 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:21:18 -0500 Subject: Report on 50-country cyber crime survey Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001207091330.0280cec0@mail.well.com> Today... COMMERCE The Johns Hopkins University Paul Nitze School of Advanced International Studies +(SAIS) "Global Cyber Crime: Weak Laws Threaten E-Commerce: But Does Euroopean Remedy Go Too Far?" including release of a 50-country survey showing patchwork of outdated and inconsistent laws shielding cyber criminals. Participants: Bruce McConnell, president, McConnell International LLC; Henric Kaspersen, Council of Europ; Jeffrey Pryce, Steptoe & Johnson LLP; and James Dempsey, Center for Democracy and Technology Location: SAIS, Nitze Building, 1740 Massachusetts Ave., NW, Kenney Auditorium. 10:30 a.m. Contact: Felisa Neuringer, 202-663-5626; e-mail, fneuringer at jhu.edu; or http://www.sais-jhu.edu From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 01:37:50 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:37:50 +0000 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify References: <200012051415.JAA15291@smtp6.mindspring.com> <200012060009.TAA20082@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <20001205192230.C23732@ils.unc.edu> <20001206121708.B32016@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3A2F5A6E.75A5A531@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Tim May wrote: [...] > (Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that > various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit > travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the Constitution > says citizens must lend money to the government and then petition to > get some of it back later?) The part that lets taxi drivers write you a 25 dollar receipt for a 10 dollar journey. [...] Ken From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 01:43:56 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:43:56 +0000 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A2F5BDC.D17B836A@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: [...] > And just about every business > you go into has video gear, some pointed out the door. It's amazing if you > walk around looking for this stuff and keep a list. Anyone doing anything > that might attract uniformed attention should be going the major Ninja > route... I wonder what they think of Muslim women who go completely veiled? (I don't know if you have any in Austin but there are quite a few in London). Ken From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Dec 7 09:45:25 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 09:45:25 -0800 Subject: RIP cracked via encryption? [The Register] Message-ID: <3A2FCCB5.C6945339@lsil.com> > Article about RIP being cracked because a mechanism has been found that > makes it impossible to hand over keys. > > http://www.theregister.co.uk > MOOT was on cryptome days ago. Also isn't the idea plenty old, EKE for instance? What MOOT seems to be addressing are some of the practical problems of insecure systems in addition to the basic crypto. From tcmay at got.net Thu Dec 7 09:47:18 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:47:18 -0800 Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <0B376C13.1AFD8001.0001028E@netscape.net> References: <0B376C13.1AFD8001.0001028E@netscape.net> Message-ID: At 12:09 PM -0500 12/7/00, MttwF at netscape.net wrote: >Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male >porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to >find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. Officer Matt Frewberg, We are unable to process your request at this time. We are busy here supplying Law Enforcement with the bomb-making information that their supervisor, Sen. Feinstein, has ordered them to find on the Internet. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 07:04:56 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:04:56 -0500 Subject: Frezza: The Internet Vs. Tyranny, and Other Parting Thoughts Message-ID: Wherein Bill Frezza, my only reason for an InternetWeek subscription, signs off. So long, Bill, and thanks for all the fish... :-). Cheers, RAH At 10:08 PM -0700 on 12/6/00, InternetWeek Newsletter wrote: > Opinion: The Internet Vs. Tyranny, And Other Parting Thoughts > > Writing a regular opinion column is an invigorating tonic, a deadline- > disciplined interlude of forced reflection, providing an opportunity > to follow where the muse might lead. With this column, I have tried > to examine the broader impact of Internet technology on business, > public policy and society. My approach has been rooted in the firm > belief that ideas matter and that fundamental principles worked out > long ago can be applied to novel situations to guide us toward > discovering not only what might be but what ought to be. > > Working against the backdrop of a society that has deeply embraced > moral relativism has provided ample opportunity to lay bare the > hypocrisy that permeates both the business and political leadership > of our day. Judging by the mail I've received from so many readers > over the years, this has delighted some and infuriated others, which > was exactly my objective. > > Our industry, the telecommunications industry, and its newborn wonder > child the Internet, are shaking up the world like no revolution > before. Of course there are historical developments that had greater > impact. But none has affected so many people over such a brief > period. And, thanks to the acceleration of events brought about by > the Internet itself, we are all in a position to see the results of > the choices we make, unlike our predecessors who played largely to > posterity. > > Most encouraging, the power to innovate is decentralizing, with the > rewards for success so unabashedly disproportionate that > extraordinary efforts are being called forth from people who might > otherwise be content to lead ordinary lives. Progress has always come > from the motivated few over the objections of the complacent many. > The way these few are treated determines the future. The most > profound contribution of the American experiment to human happiness > is that we have freed the basic impulse for improvement from the > tyranny of hidebound culture. The Internet has become both the source > and the conduit to export our culture of success to the rest of the > planet, smashing ancient chauvinism by exposing one and all to the > Darwinian hurricane. > > Capital has been pried from the grip of those whose main objective > was to preserve it, set loose in a global arena seeking market-driven > returns. Talent has been released from the prison of place to make > contributions far beyond the reach of local customs and constraints. > The price to access knowledge has dropped so precipitously that > anyone can stand on the shoulders of everyone, scaling heights that > would otherwise take lifetimes to achieve. The cost of failure has > been reduced to such acceptable levels that this marvelous teacher > can instruct without maiming, making its students stronger as they > prepare for the next challenge. Coercive force wielded by prince or > mob is receding toward impotency, unable to have its way as the prime > productive asset becomes the power of unfettered minds. > > These are good things to remember as we head into a cyclical economic > downturn. Many will question the value of what has been created. The > reactionaries will preach ruin and the envious will gloat, claiming > the Internet bubble was an aberration. They are wrong. The > businesses, technologies and entrepreneurs that survive the cleansing > fires will form the foundation for the next round of growth. The > failures will be its fertilizer. This is as it should be. Unlike the > Roaring Twenties when the central government was powerful enough to > turn a recession into a protracted depression, today's government is > so palpably broken, careening headlong toward a chronic dysfunctional > state, that it can be discounted. Washington will remain a bleeding > tax on progress, but as a tapeworm rather than a cancer. The > innovators will outrun it, along with its European counterparts who > foolishly believe that coalescing into a single ministerial glob will > assure bureaucratic immortality. > > Thank you, dear readers. It has been a great six years. This is my > last column, at least for the foreseeable future. The press of > business and the closing of our newest venture fund demands my full > attention. I am also deathly afraid that I am becoming a bore, > preaching the same themes in variations that can only be appreciated > by diehard free market capitalists--a misunderstood minority even in > the best of times. Hence until I retire, a good 10 years from now, my > harangues will have to be reserved for my poor dinner companions. > > Happy thoughts for a happy future. Farewell, until we meet again. > --Bill Frezza -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 07:07:17 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:07:17 -0500 Subject: ip: Guard tapped for infowar duties Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Dec 7 07:15:46 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:15:46 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: > Ken Brown[SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] > Jim Choate wrote: > [...] > > And just about every business > > you go into has video gear, some pointed out the door. It's amazing if > you > > walk around looking for this stuff and keep a list. Anyone doing > anything > > that might attract uniformed attention should be going the major Ninja > > route... > > I wonder what they think of Muslim women who go completely veiled? (I > don't know if you have any in Austin but there are quite a few in > London). > > Ken > Many places have 'mask laws' which criminalize the wearing of masks in public. Some times there are exceptions for costume balls, etc, but generally these laws are very selectively enforced. I seem to remember there were some prosecutions in the US in relation to the WTO protests and in London following the May Day protests. Unless there is a specific loophole for Muslim women's veils, I suppose they are technically in violation, but as I said, these laws are hardly ever invoked. If say, there were a rash of terrorist attacks involving veiled persons occured, there'd be crackdown. Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Dec 7 07:20:28 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:20:28 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: > R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:rah at shipwright.com] wrote > You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, > there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security > number to open a bank account.... > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the US? I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. Peter Trei From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 07:25:02 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:25:02 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:20 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the > US? > I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. I would be surprised if you didn't need at least a tax ID number, myself. I'm not sure, because I don't have one, but I think that people with Green Cards have to have Social Security Numbers, right? Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 7 02:27:09 2000 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:27:09 +0000 Subject: Tim is innocent was Re: hi In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:02:17PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001207102709.A13683@tightrope.demon.co.uk> On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:02:17PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > > At 7:48 PM -0500 12/6/00, Trei, Peter wrote: [ .. ] > >Anyone else suspect that the original message (from a > >throw-away yahoo account) is a troll, > >and wonder if Tim might have been the author? I have suspected this in the past over some postings but the ip address in the headers looks legit. Received: from [194.170.1.68] by web901.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 $ whois 194.170.1.68 route: 194.170.0.0/16 descr: Emirates Telecommunications Corporation Sheikh Zayed II Street P.O. Box 3838 Abu Dhabi United Arab Emirates > Rasha sounds like the typical illiterate student who has to take > remedial English upon her arrival at Beaver College. I had a roommate > in college who was one of these types, having to take the equivalent > of "English for Dummies." He couldn't spell, he couldn't construct a > sentence, and he couldn't read worth a damn. Although I dislike, as ever, Tim's tone in these matters he has, as he often does, a valid point hidden under his bitterness and his experience at an American university is similar to my own, more recent, experiences at English universities. In a basic course that purported to teach "economics" (actually a dumbed down blend of vague sociology and Keynesianism) the majority of students were foreign and had a poor grasp of the English language. The level of debate was poor and the lecturer had an easy job. I am not racist against foreign students and think poking fun at poor English isn't constructive (they generally speak English better than I speak their own language) but there seems to me something basically broken about a system which doesn't teach basic English _before_ trying to teach complex ideas in that language. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk gravity cannot be held responsible for people falling in love. -- albert einstein From BuyEnterpriseSys at netscape.net Thu Dec 7 07:27:48 2000 From: BuyEnterpriseSys at netscape.net (BuyEnterpriseSys at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:27:48 -0500 Subject: Datamarc- We Buy Surplus Message-ID: <0000440a6033$00005e13$000000c2@63.25.194.88> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3666 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Thu Dec 7 07:29:19 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:29:19 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: Green carders, yes. Visiting foreigners who are not working, not neccesarily. Tourists certainly not. How about if James Higginsbottom opens an account in the London branch of Citibank? Does he need a US SSN to do so? (I don't think so). Can he use the account in the US (I suspect he can). Peter > ---------- > From: R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:rah at shipwright.com] > > At 10:20 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > > > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in > the > > US? > > I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. > > I would be surprised if you didn't need at least a tax ID number, myself. > > I'm not sure, because I don't have one, but I think that people with Green > Cards have to have Social Security Numbers, right? > > Cheers, > RAH > From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 08:08:55 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:08:55 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:29 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > Green carders, yes. Visiting foreigners who are not > working, not neccesarily. Tourists certainly not. > > How about if James Higginsbottom opens an account > in the London branch of Citibank? Does he need a US > SSN to do so? (I don't think so). Can he use the account > in the US (I suspect he can). I think we're wandering off into the weeds a bit here. The London branch of Citibank, is, of course, a bank in the UK, subject to all banking laws there. Our friend above uses his UK account in the US almost certainly at an ATM machine, like I do from my US bank in the UK, and/or credit card, and no other way. You can certainly get a dollar-denominated bank account in London from Citibank, London is the currency capital of the world, but, and on no real data here, I doubt you could write ACH cleared and routed checks through it. NACHA is trying to do this better, but, in general, you need a correspondent relationship, and/or account, or something, at a bank here in order to write checks on that UK account. My original point, possibly taken too literally at the outset here, is that in most jurisdictions it is more or less impossible to get a US bank account without a social security number, especially if you're a US citizen. Duncan Frissell popped up here on cypherpunks with pointers to the odd bank in South Dakota or somewhere, 4 or 5 years ago, where you could get a bank account without a SSN. It was exceptional in its example, and I would doubt it possible even now. I am not, of course, a banking lawyer, but I certainly hang out with enough of those folks these days, I've certainly had enough of this stuff shoved into my head over the years, and, I expect that to get a bank account without a Social Security number in most states of the US, you probably need to prove that you are indeed a foreign national, *and* provide a valid passport as proof of same, and that, frankly, the passport number would be used *somewhere* as a proxy for SSN where possible. There ain't no free lunch as far as identity and book-entry settlement goes, anymore, folks, even in "tax-haven" jurisdictions, as we're now seeing. Modern nation-states have bound up so much of their regulatory and tax structure into book entry settlement, that it is very hard, more probably impossible, to get a bank account in this country without being completely, positively, whatever that means, identified -- biometrically identified, if it were cheap enough, and certainly with a state-issued identification number. To paraphrase Doug Barnes, "and then you go to jail" is the penultimate error-handling step in book-entry settlement. That means that the nation-state gets in your face, and gets your number, end of story. That is a central fact of financial operations won't change until something proves cheaper that book-entry settlement. Which, of course, lots of people on cypherpunks, and elsewhere, are busy working on. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From Frank.Trotter at EVERBANK.com Thu Dec 7 08:40:35 2000 From: Frank.Trotter at EVERBANK.com (Trotter, Frank) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:40:35 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, December 07, 2000 10:09 AM The Following Was Transmitted: > My original point, possibly taken too > literally at the outset here, is that in > most jurisdictions it is more or less > impossible to get a US bank account without > a social security number, It is in fact required of US entities. > I am not, of course, a banking lawyer, but > I certainly hang out with enough of those > folks these days, I've certainly had enough > of this stuff shoved into my head over the years, > and, I expect that to get a bank account > without a Social Security number in most states > of the US, you probably need to prove that you > are indeed a foreign national, *and* provide a > valid passport as proof of same, and that, > frankly, the passport number would be used > *somewhere* as a proxy for SSN where possible. There are two issues here. If you are a non-resident alien (an "NRA" - I've always loved that term) you can sign a W-8 stating that you are an NRA and that you are not required to have a TIN or SSN. That takes care of you from that angle and by definition you don't need a number. The more difficult element is the "know your customer" rule where such a signing doesn't really prove anything. At the end of the day, the bank - and more specifically an individual banker is personally liable (the "banker goes to jail" principal) - is required both to assert that they know the customer and in the event of untoward activity, which is rather broadly defined, report such activity to the authorities if it is discovered or !!! should have been discovered !!! - This latter principal IMO is the one that creates the extreme level of conservative behavior in the US. Personal comments only. ===================== Frank O. Trotter, III President - everbank.com Spank your banker and come on over to http://www.everbank.com everbank is a Division of Wilmington Savings Fund Society, FSB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.2 iQA/AwUBOi+9w6c6Jcu2sioFEQJJTQCgweMpU4qyMn1cDcdh4RCPjazTZVMAnRdP KCE6CTUNoy8UyW+Uw7kpbSe6 =xFsz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From carskar at netsolve.net Thu Dec 7 09:54:22 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:54:22 -0600 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7416@cobra.netsolve.net> Yes, if you receive a subpoena, there will be information with the document that instructs you on how to contact a clerk that will make travel arrangements for you if necessary. The rule here is that they will compensate you, or outright pay for, the cheapest method of transportation. In other words, if it is cheaper to drive, then they will not pay for a ticket. It does not mean that you will be riding in a goat truck or something of that nature. Any additional expenses associated with testifying can be indicated on a form that you will generally receive when you arrive. As for the forty dollars a day, this is true as well. ok, Rush -----Original Message----- From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 3:19 PM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify At 1:08 PM -0800 12/6/00, Tim May wrote: >At 3:52 PM -0500 12/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >>>(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that >>>various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit >>>travel expense receipts." Is this true? What part of the >>>Constitution says citizens must >> >>Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like >>$25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being >>called to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. > >As I said, it's not my job to buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc. >and then fill out a government form. > >Actually, I remember someone saying during the Parker case that a >government travel office would make all travel and lodging >arrangements. > >Not my job to lend money to the government. > >I'm watching a lawyer on the stand in the Seminole County part of >the rolling trial say that he charges $500 an hour to testify in >court cases. Sounds like a good fee for me to charge. I mis-spoke. He's not a lawyer...he's a statistics professor. Still, sounds like a good fee to charge for my "expert testimony" on Bell's scheme, should it come down to this. --Tim -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3640 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Thu Dec 7 10:03:08 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:03:08 -0600 Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7417@cobra.netsolve.net> I was subpoenaed to appear before federal grand jury two days ago, and the server was hanging out on my front porch for quite a while. I had failed to answer the door an hour earlier, and apparently he had just decided to set up camp there (cleverly out of scope of my peep hole) until I stepped out to go to work, which is exactly what happened. When I relayed the story to my boss later, he informed me that having a server camped out on my front porch is a perfectly good reason to call in sick. Heh. Either way, I am now installing a camera out there, because I have learned a lesson about the security of my front porch, and the effectiveness of the peep hole. -----Original Message----- From: Declan McCullagh [mailto:declan at well.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 2:53 PM To: Tim May; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify At 11:01 12/6/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >(Of course, _serving me_ is problematic. I had a process server make >several trips out to my semi-rural hilltop home in 1995 before finally >reaching me at home. And that was when I still answering the doorbell. >These days I use my peephole, or a t.v. camera I sometimes have set up. I >doubt a process server could get to me.) When I was served with a subpoena in the CJ Parker trial, I had had a party the night before and let a friend of a friend sleep over in my living room. The process server showed up around 7:30 am the following morning and my houseguest let him into the foyer. Grr. >-- I was surprised to see so many "affidavits" and "interviews" and >"pre-trial statements" from various witnesses in the Parker case. Surely >these people must have known that though their presence could have been >compelled in Washington state, that they had no obligation to sit down >with Federal agents and give interviews! When I was subpoenaed in the Parker trial, I did not give any pre trial statement or affidavits or whatnot. (There's no incentive for me to do so, and presumably little incentive for list members to do so, unless they see it as a way to avoid further involvement.) My lawyer was the person who had contact with DoJ. >(Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that various >witnesses called to travel to Washington were to "submit travel expense >receipts." Is this true? What part of the Constitution says citizens must Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like $25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being called to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. -Declan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3891 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at giganetstore.com Thu Dec 7 04:07:29 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:07:29 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ser=E1_que_o_Pai_Natal_chega_a_tempo_=3F?= Message-ID: <018b029501307c0WWWNETSTORE@wwwnetstore> Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em formato HTML, basta clicar aqui . O tempo está a esgotar-se ! Faça as suas compras até ao dia 12 de Dezembro para que o Pai Natal entregue todas as prendas a tempo de serem abertas no dia de Natal. Visite já a nossa Galeria de Prendas e deixe a giganetstore.com ajudá-lo(a) a encontrar a prenda ideal. Temos prendas para todos . Relembramos as nossas condições especiais, válidas só até 12 de Dezembro: -desconto de 5% do valor das suas compras (*) -portes gratuitos E ainda ... um gorro de Pai Natal, grátis, em todas as compras que efectuar até 31 de Dezembro. (*) Este desconto é válido para encomendas efectuadas entre os dias 01 e 12 de Dezembro; para utilizar este valor, bastará na altura do checkout seleccionar a opção de pagamento através de Códigos Promocionais e inserir o seguinte código: 200001121212. Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1605 bytes Desc: not available URL: From MttwF at netscape.net Thu Dec 7 09:09:06 2000 From: MttwF at netscape.net (MttwF at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:09:06 -0500 Subject: nambla Message-ID: <0B376C13.1AFD8001.0001028E@netscape.net> Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 09:16:20 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:16:20 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 70 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Dec 7 12:35:38 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:35:38 -0800 Subject: rijndael question Message-ID: <3A2FF499.F10CF020@lsil.com> On the rijndael page I see this note below the optimized code link : >IMPORTANT NOTE ! This code was written in order to clarify the mathematical >description, and to run the statistical test. Without modification, it should not >be used to encrypt files, or for any other application. What exactly does this mean? The code is not correct and functional? Mike http://www.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/~rijmen/rijndael/ From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 09:59:32 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:59:32 -0500 Subject: Knowing your customer In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001207085447.01e46948@shell11.ba.best.com> References: < <5.0.2.1.0.20001207085447.01e46948@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: At 8:59 AM -0800 on 12/7/00, James A. Donald wrote: > Many years ago Ah. :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From commerce at home.com Thu Dec 7 10:09:12 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:09:12 -0500 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Vogt" [re: Muslim women in vail, uncovering] > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the > "masquerade" is NON optional, and - as I understand it > - they simply can't give in. contrary to all the internet privacy, > where we are unwilling to give in to even more privacy being > taken away, but we CAN if i were to cloak my desire for privacy in the words of the Great Squid, would it be more legitimate? From j.fulton at juno.com Thu Dec 7 13:20:45 2000 From: j.fulton at juno.com (Joel M Fulton) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:20:45 -0800 Subject: nambla Message-ID: <20001207.132113.262.0.j.fulton@juno.com> So....you saw the email address of a *mailing list* at a web site for the North American Man Boy Love Association, but have been, as yet, unable to find any "young male porn sites". Have I got this all right? Apparently the FBI is now accepting Army applicant rejects as employees... On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:09:06 -0500 MttwF at netscape.net writes: > Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male > porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to > find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From forgot at lga2.nytimes.com Thu Dec 7 12:05:49 2000 From: forgot at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:05:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: NYT Account Request Message-ID: <200012072005.PAA07339@web80t.lga2.nytimes.com> You have requested your ID and password for The New York Times on the Web. Please follow the instructions below. If you have any questions or problems, write to forgot at nytimes.com. Please DO NOT REPLY to this message. 1. Please make a note of your subscriber ID: twatsrus0 2. Next, to change the password for this account, using your Web browser go to this unique URL: http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=78688128_17492195 This page will allow you to choose a new password. Make sure you have copied the address EXACTLY as it appears here. (If you're getting an "Error" page, the address was probably entered incorrectly. See "Help With Copying and Pasting" at the bottom of this e-mail.) 3. Follow the instructions on the screen to choose a new password. After you have entered a password you will automatically enter our Web site. The New York Times on the Web Customer Service forgot at nytimes.com ******************** Help With Copying and Pasting 1. Using the mouse, highlight the entire Web address, (e.g. http://verify.nytimes.com/guests/forgot/forgot?key=78688128_17492195) shown above in step 2. It's essential to highlight the entire address, even if it extends over two lines. 2. Under the Edit menu at the top of your screen, select "Copy". 3. Go into your Web browser (open it if it's not already opened). 4. Click in the "Netsite" or "Address" bar -- the place in your Web browser where it says what Web address you're currently looking at -- and delete the address that's currently there. 5. In the blank "Netsite" or "Address" bar, paste the address by selecting the "Edit" menu at the top of your screen and choosing "Paste". 6. Press Enter. 7. Follow the instructions to choose a new password. ******************** If you did not request your ID and password for your NYT Web registration, someone has mistakenly entered your e-mail address when requesting their password. Please simply ignore this message, or, if you wish, you may go to the address above to select a new password for your account. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Thu Dec 7 07:28:29 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 15:28:29 +0000 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A2FAC9D.603564DE@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim Choate wrote: > Is your assertion that veiled Muslim women are inherently criminal? No, just that you can't tell who is under the buibui by looking at the video. Ken From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Thu Dec 7 15:34:42 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:34:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zionist Entity Tactical Laser Fizzles Message-ID: <200012072334.eB7NYgY12020@artifact.psychedelic.net> It appears that the tactical chemical laser the US has been hoping to deploy to protect the Zionist Entity from rockets launched by Hezbollah guerrillas in southern Lebanon is, in the words of its developers, "not ready for action." http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/international/ap796.htm According to the defense department blurb on the system, called THEL (http://www.smdc.army.mil/FactSheets/THEL.html), the system employs deuterium fluoride as the lasing medium. Since deuterium is somewhat more expensive to produce than ordinary hydrogen, one wonders why the system has been designed to work with deuterium. Is it because the government does not want fuel for it to be easily produced, should the design fall into enemy hands. Or is there some engineering advantage to using deuterium? Does excited deuterium fluoride have some wonderful spectral line in exactly the right place, that pedestrian hydrogen fluoride does not? Any chemical or nuclear engineers here who could answer the question of why deuterium is more desirable? -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From alan at clueserver.org Thu Dec 7 15:58:38 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 15:58:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Sean R. Lynch wrote: > > > Eek. Sorry. I meant the private key could be stored steganographically. > > And the public key need only be attached to your nym. Now the trick is not > > leaving anything around that might be used to link you to your nym. > > Ah, that makes more sense. Your point is a valid one. This is one of the big problems with PGP currently, BTW. I pointed out a number of years ago that you could get a complete list of all keys (and the nyms they were associated with) without any sort of passphrase. ("pgp -kvv" using the private keyring.) It was shrugged off as no big deal. (This was before Carl Johnson got busted and they used his private key ring to show nym association in just the fashion I described.) This could be prevented by encrypting the keyring, but unless it is built into PGP itself, it is going to make life hard for most people who use PGP front-ends. (I can modify such tools, but most people out there are not programmers.) As for the "concealing of evidence"... We are reaching a point where trying to protect ANYTHING from the prying eyes of the feds will be considered a "crime". Get used to it. You will probably have to break laws to retain any shread of privacy in the future. (Of course, the first rule of not being seen is "Don't Stand Up.".) The way that law enforcement has been approaching things is to look for exceptions where people are able to avoid their grasp and to make laws and/or regs to cover those "loopholes". ("Be thou the loophole in the law.") Any effort to exploit existing loopholes in the law will be seen as intent to break other existing laws. (In order to punish you more effectively.) So, in other words, "You are damned if you do and damned if you don't". alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From declan at well.com Thu Dec 7 13:12:30 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 16:12:30 -0500 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001207161221.0287b600@mail.well.com> >Reply-To: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" > >From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" >To: "Declan McCullagh" >Subject: Release: Democracy or Republic? >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:57:19 -0500 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 > >The Liberty Committee >701 W. Broad Street, Fifth Floor >Falls Church, VA 22046 > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >Thursday, December 07, 2000 >Contact: Kent Snyder, 703-241-1003 >E-mail: kentsnyder at thelibertycommittee.org >Web site: http://www.thelibertycommittee.org > >THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL >COLLEGE SYSTEM SHOULD NOT BE CHANGED. > >House Concurrent Resolution (H.C.R.) 443 was submitted Monday, December >4, 2000 by Representatives Ron Paul (TX), Jack Metcalf (WA), Bob Stump >(AZ), and Mark Sanford (SC) expressing the sense of Congress in >reaffirming the United States of America as a republic. H.C. R. 443 >also reaffirms the electoral college system. > >"I call upon every member of the U.S. House of Representatives to >cosponsor House Concurrent Resolution 443 and ask every citizen to see >that they do," stated Kent Snyder executive director of The Liberty >Committee. He added, "The U.S. is a republic. Our present system of >selecting a president and vice president should remain so our republic >of independent and sovereign states will remain." > >The Liberty Committee is a nationwide, grassroots organization of over >45,000 Americans who are determined to restore the national government >of the United States to its constitutional limitations in order for >liberty to prevail. > >-30- > > From declan at well.com Thu Dec 7 13:23:59 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 16:23:59 -0500 Subject: Hypenated-Americans: For Tim Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001207162348.0150b010@mail.well.com> About the American Hyphen Society The American Hyphen Society is a community-based, not-for-profit, grass-roots conciousness-raising/education-research alliance that seeks to help effectuate the across-the-board self-empowerment of wide-ranging culture-, nationality-, ethnicity-, creed-, gender-, and sexual-orientation-defined identity groups by excising all multiculturally-less-than-sensitive terminology from the English language, and replacing it with counter-hegemonic, cruelty-, gender-, bias-, and, if necessary, content-free speech. The society's motto is "It became necessary to destroy the language in order to save it". Its headquarters are in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 17:07:10 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:07:10 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: <3A279CB6.C57EBE78@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3A279CB6.C57EBE78@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: >(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >economics :-) Even a stopped clock is right twice a day (once if it's military). -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:22:50 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:22:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the "masquerade" > is NON optional, and - as I understand it - they simply can't give in. > contrary to all the internet privacy, where we are unwilling to give in > to even more privacy being taken away, but we CAN (and 99% of your > typical AOL user survey WILL, if they get offered, say, one hour free > surfing). That's a tad misleading. Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy concerns but property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things to those ragheads. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:25:41 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:25:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Destroying evidence (was "About 5yr. log retention") In-Reply-To: <20001207091502.A30601@nietzsche.literati.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Sean R. Lynch wrote: > Eek. Sorry. I meant the private key could be stored steganographically. > And the public key need only be attached to your nym. Now the trick is not > leaving anything around that might be used to link you to your nym. Ah, that makes more sense. Your point is a valid one. I was thinking about this and the article about the RIP hack with these 'hidden' keys that supposedly can't be grabbed. If this works it might also resolve the CFS pass-phrase issue at reboots. This potentially opens up having a fully encrypted filesystem that could only be brute forced. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:29:14 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:29:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: RIP cracked via encryption? [The Register] In-Reply-To: <3A2FCCB5.C6945339@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > MOOT was on cryptome days ago. Then whomever runs it must have been asleep, again. > Also isn't the idea plenty old, EKE for instance? Everything is old, we just keep rediscovering it. > What MOOT seems to be addressing are some of the practical problems of > insecure systems in addition to the basic crypto. The point being if it really makes grabbing the real keys impossible then it is different than anything that's come before. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:34:44 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:34:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify In-Reply-To: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7417@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Carskadden, Rush wrote: > I was subpoenaed to appear before federal grand jury two days ago, and > the server was hanging out on my front porch for quite a while. I had failed > to answer the door an hour earlier, and apparently he had just decided to > set up camp there (cleverly out of scope of my peep hole) until I stepped > out to go to work, which is exactly what happened. When I relayed the story > to my boss later, he informed me that having a server camped out on my front > porch is a perfectly good reason to call in sick. Heh. Either way, I am now > installing a camera out there, because I have learned a lesson about the > security of my front porch, and the effectiveness of the peep hole. Call in sick and then stand at the window making funny faces at him and when you get tired tell him to egress your property. If they don't leave call the cops and report a tresspasser. A subpoena is not a search warrant. Then at least you don't have to worry about them camping out on your property. Also consider getting a dog. I prefer wolf hybrids because they alert much quicker than 'domestic' dogs (there is no genetic difference between that wolf and your chihuahua, sort of like Tims point about 'races'. Hell, we're all black under UV). They're not very good at confrontational sorts of things however so the odds of them actually biting anyone are pretty low. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 14:34:53 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:34:53 -0500 Subject: An Internet Bearer Bibliography Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 5349 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 15:36:28 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:36:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001207161221.0287b600@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" > >THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL A republic is a form of democracy, a representative one. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at lvcm.com Thu Dec 7 17:36:49 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 17:36:49 -0800 Subject: Zionist Entity Tactical Laser Fizzles In-Reply-To: <200012072334.eB7NYgY12020@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001207172049.052d1730@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:34 PM 12/7/00 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: >It appears that the tactical chemical laser the US has been hoping to >deploy to protect the Zionist Entity from rockets launched by Hezbollah >guerrillas in southern Lebanon is, in the words of its developers, "not >ready for action." > >http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/international/ap796.htm > >According to the defense department blurb on the system, called THEL >(http://www.smdc.army.mil/FactSheets/THEL.html), the system employs >deuterium fluoride as the lasing medium. > >Since deuterium is somewhat more expensive to produce than ordinary >hydrogen, one wonders why the system has been designed to work with >deuterium. Is it because the government does not want fuel for it to be >easily produced, should the design fall into enemy hands. > >Or is there some engineering advantage to using deuterium? Does excited >deuterium fluoride have some wonderful spectral line in exactly the right >place, that pedestrian hydrogen fluoride does not? > >Any chemical or nuclear engineers here who could answer the question >of why deuterium is more desirable? That's exactly it. Deuterium-Flourine (and I think Deuterium-Iodine) have a prominent emission line which matches up nicely with CO2. In practice, the DeF/DeI are hypergolically combined in the combustion chamber (that is they combust immediately upon contact) producing an impressive power output. Somewhere inside or just outside the nozzle CO2 is injected and turbulently mixed. Two parallel mirrors perpendicular to the exhaust lase the pumped up C02 and other (tracking) mirrors direct it to the target. Unlike most other high power lasers these babies are CW, not pulsed, and capable of generating multi-megawatt beams. (They work exceptionally well in space if you can keep the fuel/oxidizer from leaking and make sure the exhaust doesn't dissolve the weapon) This was a major Naval project when I worked at TRW in the 80s called Mid-Infrared Advanced Chemical Laser (MIRACL) See http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/launches/laser_shootdown_000926.html or search under "TRW chemical laser" steve -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2618 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mcbride at countersiege.com Thu Dec 7 14:38:43 2000 From: mcbride at countersiege.com (Ryan McBride) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:38:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: rijndael question In-Reply-To: <3A2FF499.F10CF020@lsil.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: > On the rijndael page I see this note below the optimized code link : > > > IMPORTANT NOTE ! This code was written in order to clarify the > > mathematical description, and to run the statistical test. Without > > modification, it should not be used to encrypt files, > or for any other application. > > What exactly does this mean? The code is not correct and functional? Functional code isn't secure. Correct code doesn't exist.* This probably means that the code does not check for buffer overflows and other bad programming, or that it has not been audited for security holes. -Ryan * except as a platonic ideal -- Ryan McBride - mcbride at countersiege.com Systems Security Consultant Countersiege Systems Corporation - http://www.countersiege.com From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 17:39:29 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:39:29 -0800 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: Mr. May said: >At 2:27 PM -0500 12/3/00, Adam Langley wrote: >>Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:UK Govt seeks to capture and st >>(MiME/CSOm) (0000F86A) > >This is really getting out of hand! Attempting to open this message, >by clicking on the attachment, bombs/crashes my Eudora Pro 5.0.1 >mailer. Repeatedly--I tried 4 times. Works fine on Macintosh Eudora 4.3.2 with the PGP plug in. Maybe Eudora broke the Plugin? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us Thu Dec 7 15:42:17 2000 From: hseaver at harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us (Harmon Seaver) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 17:42:17 -0600 Subject: openpgp.net down? Message-ID: <3A302056.F3C74E32@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Anybody know what happened to openpgp.net? I haven't had a cpunks post since last night. From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 17:43:13 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:43:13 -0800 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> <20001203191604.B10121@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: Wahby (WABI?) wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Tim May wrote: >> If messages are signed, great care should be taken to ensure that the >> signatures do not in any way interfere with the normal presentation >> of good old ASCII text, the lingua franca of the online world. > >The problem you're seeing arises because your mailer and others like >it (Outlook, etc.) do not follow the PGP/MIME standard (RFC 2015, >Oct. 1996), which calls for the support of the content-types >application/pgp-encrypted, application/pgp-signature, and >application/pgp-keys. Unfortunately, many of us use mailers that make >some attempt at supporting standards, and in the end you just can't >read our mail. Langley's pgp message has the following headers: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FCuugMFkClbJLl1L" Yours comes through as Content-Type: text/plain His activates the PGP plugin on my installation of Eudora. > >There is at least some blame to be placed with the people who came up >with these standards. A lack of backwards-compatibility is almost >always a recipie for disaster, especially because of the sheer number >of mail programs available. Fortunately, I'm using an open-source >mail client, so I'm not stuck with unsupported standards. :-) Of course, it doesn't play well with others, but that's common. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From schear at lvcm.com Thu Dec 7 17:50:32 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 17:50:32 -0800 Subject: Zionist Entity Tactical Laser Fizzles In-Reply-To: <200012072334.eB7NYgY12020@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001207174849.052dbb10@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:34 PM 12/7/00 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: I must have been mistaken, according to the material at http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/asat/miracl.htm no CO2 is employed, rather "a fuel (ethylene, C2H4) is burned with an oxidizer (nitrogen trifluoride, NF3). Free, excited fluorine atoms are one of the combustion products. Just downstream from the combustor, deuterium and helium are injected into the exhaust. Deuterium combines with the excited fluorine to give excited deuterium fluoride (DF) molecules, while the helium stabilizes the reaction and controls the temperature. The laser's resonator mirrors are wrapped around the excited exhaust gas and optical energy is extracted. The cavity is actively cooled and can be run until the fuel supply is exhausted. The laser's output power can be varied over a wide range by altering the fuel flow rates and mixture/" steve From seanl at literati.org Thu Dec 7 17:58:18 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 17:58:18 -0800 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: ; from petro@bounty.org on Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:39:29PM -0800 References: <20001203203433.A7327@linuxpower.org> Message-ID: <20001207175817.B5473@makoto.literati.org> On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:39:29PM -0800, petro wrote: > Mr. May said: > >At 2:27 PM -0500 12/3/00, Adam Langley wrote: > >>Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:UK Govt seeks to capture and st > >>(MiME/CSOm) (0000F86A) > > > >This is really getting out of hand! Attempting to open this message, > >by clicking on the attachment, bombs/crashes my Eudora Pro 5.0.1 > >mailer. Repeatedly--I tried 4 times. [...] Also, since when is crashing a proper response to *any* email message? I don't think you have the PGP/MIME-using people to blame, nor should we be expected to fix your lousy email program. I can understand people's desire to be able to read messages, but even if your MUA does not support MIME, if you look at this message in plain text you can read it without any sort of formatting problems. Only mailers that have incorrect MIME support will have problems with it, and that's simply not any of our problem. ASCII plain text *is* The Way. But guess what, PGP/MIME *is* plain text. You can even parse it with your eyeballs. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/~seanl/ "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem!" -Ronald Reagan, 1984 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ricardo.de Thu Dec 7 09:02:20 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:02:20 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > Many places have 'mask laws' which criminalize the wearing of masks > in public. Some times there are exceptions for costume balls, etc, but > generally these laws are very selectively enforced. I seem to remember > there were some prosecutions in the US in relation to the WTO protests > and in London following the May Day protests. > > Unless there is a specific loophole for Muslim women's veils, I suppose > they are technically in violation, but as I said, these laws are hardly > ever invoked. If say, there were a rash of terrorist attacks involving > veiled > persons occured, there'd be crackdown. that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the "masquerade" is NON optional, and - as I understand it - they simply can't give in. contrary to all the internet privacy, where we are unwilling to give in to even more privacy being taken away, but we CAN (and 99% of your typical AOL user survey WILL, if they get offered, say, one hour free surfing). From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Thu Dec 7 16:03:22 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:03:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: openpgp.net down? In-Reply-To: <3A302056.F3C74E32@harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Harmon Seaver wrote: > Anybody know what happened to openpgp.net? I haven't had a cpunks post > since last night. I've gotten some bounces from whgiii at openpgp.net as well. They seem to have stopped sometime yesterday. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tom at ricardo.de Thu Dec 7 09:05:45 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:05:45 +0100 Subject: Knowing your customer References: Message-ID: <3A2FC369.A87D3E97@ricardo.de> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:rah at shipwright.com] wrote > > You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, > > there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security > > number to open a bank account.... > > > Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the > US? > I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. I guess an equivalent ID will do. in germany, you need your ID card to open a bank account (um, for those not in the know: we have state-issue ID cards in addition to passports. the passport is a travel document, used to visit non-EU countries. the ID card is used inside the EU and for national purposes (identification, mostly). you are NOT required to have it with you all the time or somesuch, but some activities, such as opening a bank account, require an ID card. driving license or other documents will do in many cases, but I think not for bank accounts). From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 18:51:48 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:51:48 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mr. May: >Frankly, the PGP community veered off the track toward crapola about >standards, escrow, etc., instead of concentrating on the core >issues. PGP as text is a solved problem. The rest of the story is to >ensure that pass phrases and keys are not black-bagged. > >Forget fancy GUIs, forget standards...concentrate on the real threat model. What is the real threat model? Everybody has different worries. I'm not a bookie, I don't do work for the mob, I don't spend more than I earn. My biggest threat is (1) financial (stolen credit card numbers, or other form of credential fraud) (2) Political--that comments here and other places get me the list of "People To Take Care Of Later". The first threat can be dealt with by "cheap" crypto deployed everywhere--to co-opt one of RAH's phrases--a "Geodesicly encrypted network. In a network where every single stinking bit on the wire is encrypted at as many layers as possible, even with "10 cent" crypto will virtually eliminate (by making it more expensive) many of the low level financial threats. Yes, big banks and large financial institutions need stronger crypto, but they can multiple-encrypt, write their own protocols etc.). The second threat would be made much harder by the encrypt everything all the time type of network, if I weren't so thick headed as to insist on using my Real Name. This is presumably what the "PGP Community" veered off towards. Unfortunately, they've done a half-assed job so far. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 7 18:52:17 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 18:52:17 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: >At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >> >>An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >>to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. > >A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. > >Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? > >As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services >in large cities. How do you know they don't? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From ulf at fitug.de Thu Dec 7 17:16:43 2000 From: ulf at fitug.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Ulf_M=F6ller?=) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:16:43 -0500 Subject: An Internet Bearer Bibliography In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:34:53PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001207201642.A1829@rho.invalid> On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:34:53PM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Probably I'd start out with Schneier's Applied Cryptography, making a > beeline for the digital cash section. I've heard that the pros now use > the CRC handbook of crypto, but this is the one I read first, when it > came out in 1994 or so. It's the closest thing cypherpunks have to a Boy > Scout Handbook. I would recommend the HAC as a reference and something else as an introduction (my favorite is "Decrypted Secrets" by F.L. Bauer, but there are lots of good books). Schneier is a bit of both, but not particularly good at either. Peter Wayner wrote a book about digital cash a couple of years ago. > For politics, I'd go read David Freidman, son of Milton, well-known > law-and-economic professor and anarcho-capitalist. "The Machinery of > Freedom" is a good start, because his thesis there is that we really > don't need the nation-state for much. It's a pre-crypto book, > 1970-something, and now that we think we know how to get there from here, Friedman's "Hidden Order" is interesting. It includes many of the ideas from the Machinery of Freedom in a newer form, and I suppose it is a pretty good start for learning about economics. On the fiction side, there is Neal Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon". E-cash, data havens and all that... From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Thu Dec 7 19:18:13 2000 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:18:13 -0700 Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing Message-ID: By Mary Mosquera, TechWeb News Dec 7, 2000 (6:02 AM) URL: http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20001207S0002 WASHINGTON -- The issue of privacy is growing increasingly complex as Americans express concern over abuse of their personal data -- yet still support institutions that handle their information. In a new survey of privacy and protection, an inevitable paradox emerges: While most Americans support the free flow of information from public records, they are concerned about their privacy in some instances when personal information is extracted from those records, a recent survey showed. Consumers are accepting that commercial companies supply background information on them from public records. Still, they said, it must be for a valid social or legal purpose, such as for employment or law enforcement. And protections against misuse must be in place, according to the survey, Public Records and the Responsible Use of Information. More Americans are concerned about privacy than in the past, but they take a more balanced view now, said Alan Westin, president of Privacy and American Business, which conducted the survey with ORC International. "More of those now registering concern fall into 'privacy pragmatist' rather than the 'privacy fundamentalist' camp," Westin said. That more balanced outlook contributes to the broad support for commercial access to personal information from public records. And the focus on information gathering over the Internet by millions of Net users has fostered consumers accepting commercial access to their information, Westin said. How to balance good privacy policies and social values served by disseminating public-record information is an important issue in an era when abuse of that information, especially over the Internet, has led to fraud and identity theft. The 1,000 adults surveyed found it acceptable if companies provided personal information for law enforcement, such as past or present fraudulent conduct or criminal convictions, or for hiring. Using public records to locate a current residence or work address was the least acceptable service, unless it was for law enforcement, potential employers, or consumer credit companies. Those polled thought it acceptable, but less so, for private investigators and ordinary citizens to access public records for background and location information, the report said. Consumers strongly oppose the government posting personally identified public information on the Internet. "However, opposition fades when specific safeguards are introduced," the report said. Safeguards included the government requiring the consent of the individual before displaying a public record file on the Internet and demanding a specific, legitimate purpose from a user before allowing their access. "Sensitive personal information, such as Social Security numbers or medical conditions, were removed prior to displaying the public record on the Internet," the report said. The sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet is a source of privacy abuse and identity theft. "Regulating the purchase and sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet won't come overnight," said Ron Plesser, a partner at Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolfe, Washington. "It's a challenge for industry how to use Social Security numbers properly." From Kareand at aol.com Thu Dec 7 17:44:05 2000 From: Kareand at aol.com (Kareand at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 20:44:05 EST Subject: gut instincts experts can offer customer-attracting tips at your meeting Message-ID: <6d.c8128f9.276196e5@aol.com> California Gift Show presenter, Kare Anderson, can offer you a double header: two programs : 1. for your show attendees to learn customer-attracting tips to increase per-customer buying and bragging rights (Coming Back to Our Senses: Make Your Store More Memorable) and 2. same-day program for exhibitors (How to Move More Prospects Closer to Biuying: 30 tips in 40 Minutes) for a single fee. See her Jan. 21st program for CGS at http://www.californiagiftshow.com/cgs2/Seminars&Events/seminars/memorable.html and contact us to explore how she can add an exciting day of seminars and consulting for your conference Wed be honored to work with you! cordially, Meg Wheeler, Outreach Coordinator Say It Better Center~ The Compelling Communications Group 15 Sausalito Blvd., Sausalito, California 94965-2464 415/331-6336 ~ Fax 415/331-6661 kareand at aol.com ~ www.sayitbetter.com ~~~~~ Kare Andersonis a Say It Better speaker and columnist who also coaches executives, pro athletes, government leaders on how to become the unforgettable "face" of their organization. Shes an Emmy-winning former TV commentator and Wall Street Journal reporter who co-founded a strategic communication and branding consulting firm a decade ago. Kares designed 48 cross-promotion campaigns and coached 18 start-ups that successfully went public with their stories -- and are still thriving. Her clients are as diverse as Museum Store Managers Asn., Olive Garden Restaurants, Moscone Center, CNN, Nordstroms and Merck. She's a columnist in 98 monthly magazines, from Gourmet Retailer to Broadcast Engineering. Her firm publishes the "Say It Better" online newsletter now read by over 17,000 people in 32 countries. As David Rockefeller Jr. said after hearing Kare speak, She will forever change how you see yourself and your world. From nobody at dizum.com Thu Dec 7 12:00:04 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:00:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: Tom Vogt wrote: > I guess an equivalent ID will do. in germany, you need your ID card to > open a bank account (um, for those not in the know: we have state-issue > ID cards in addition to passports. the passport is a travel document, > used to visit non-EU countries. the ID card is used inside the EU and > for national purposes (identification, mostly). you are NOT required to > have it with you all the time or somesuch, but some activities, such as > opening a bank account, require an ID card. driving license or other > documents will do in many cases, but I think not for bank accounts). How often must your ID card be renewed? What information does it (or the ID database) contain that a German passport does not? From nobody at dizum.com Thu Dec 7 12:00:20 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:00:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: Knowing your customer Message-ID: <6fc82ad1a7827c7a99cbd02c1f27c53e@dizum.com> R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Duncan Frissell popped up here on cypherpunks with pointers to the odd > bank in South Dakota or somewhere, 4 or 5 years ago, where you could get > a bank account without a SSN. It was exceptional in its example, and I > would doubt it possible even now. ... Has anyone recently attempted to open a non-interest bearing checking account without giving out an SSAN? What possible rationale (aside from "bank policy," "identification when you lose your passbook," "it's easier for us this way," or "the computer won't let us do that") could a bank (or the fedgov) have for requiring social security account numbers on such accounts? From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Thu Dec 7 22:23:36 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:23:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <20001207.132113.262.0.j.fulton@juno.com> from "Joel M Fulton" at Dec 07, 2000 01:20:45 PM Message-ID: <200012080623.eB86Nau12743@artifact.psychedelic.net> > Apparently the FBI is now accepting Army applicant rejects as > employees... > On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:09:06 -0500 MttwF at netscape.net writes: > > Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male > > porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to > > find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. Either that, or Jeff Gordon has decided he likes little boys. :) -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 7 20:10:29 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 23:10:29 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 6:52 PM -0800 on 12/7/00, petro wrote: >>At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >>> >>>An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >>>to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. >> >>A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. >> >>Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? >> >>As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services >>in large cities. > > How do you know they don't? Watch your attributions. I didn't say the above... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From dorr at asc.upenn.edu Thu Dec 7 22:00:25 2000 From: dorr at asc.upenn.edu (Daniel Orr) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 01:00:25 -0500 Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing Message-ID: This article is nothing more than a PR piece. Ronald Plesser, quoted at the end of the article, is an attorney for the Individual Reference Services group. You may remember the group as among the most vocal defenders of Lexis-Nexis when LN was going to sell social security numbers via it PTRAK service. Lexis is one of their members. Westin, the academic who ran the survey, is less than loved among many privacy advocates. I don't know the guy. He's probably on this listserv somewhere. This whole "broad support for commercial access to personal information from public records" thing is probably a response to the LAPD v. King and Condon v. Reno decisions issued by the Supreme Court last year. The former upheld a CA law which excluded access to public records for marketing purposes, the industry's primary source of such info. Further it said marketers and journalists are not the same (something I'm sure Declan was tremendously relieved to hear.) The latter (as most people on this group probably know) upheld the Driver's Privacy Protection Act, ruling that the Federal goverment can restrict states from selling driver info and regulate the exchange of personal info within the commerce clause and without violating the tenth amendment. I suspect the Direct Marketing Association, IRSG, and friends are getting a little nervous Congress might actually act. Also, note the total absence of response from any actual privacy group such as EPIC or Junkbusters, something a balanced piece wouldn't omit. Did I say PR piece? Yeah, it's a piece all right... -----Original Message----- From: Anonymous To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Sent: 12/7/00 10:18 PM Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing By Mary Mosquera, TechWeb News Dec 7, 2000 (6:02 AM) URL: http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB20001207S0002 WASHINGTON -- The issue of privacy is growing increasingly complex as Americans express concern over abuse of their personal data -- yet still support institutions that handle their information. In a new survey of privacy and protection, an inevitable paradox emerges: While most Americans support the free flow of information from public records, they are concerned about their privacy in some instances when personal information is extracted from those records, a recent survey showed. Consumers are accepting that commercial companies supply background information on them from public records. Still, they said, it must be for a valid social or legal purpose, such as for employment or law enforcement. And protections against misuse must be in place, according to the survey, Public Records and the Responsible Use of Information. More Americans are concerned about privacy than in the past, but they take a more balanced view now, said Alan Westin, president of Privacy and American Business, which conducted the survey with ORC International. "More of those now registering concern fall into 'privacy pragmatist' rather than the 'privacy fundamentalist' camp," Westin said. That more balanced outlook contributes to the broad support for commercial access to personal information from public records. And the focus on information gathering over the Internet by millions of Net users has fostered consumers accepting commercial access to their information, Westin said. How to balance good privacy policies and social values served by disseminating public-record information is an important issue in an era when abuse of that information, especially over the Internet, has led to fraud and identity theft. The 1,000 adults surveyed found it acceptable if companies provided personal information for law enforcement, such as past or present fraudulent conduct or criminal convictions, or for hiring. Using public records to locate a current residence or work address was the least acceptable service, unless it was for law enforcement, potential employers, or consumer credit companies. Those polled thought it acceptable, but less so, for private investigators and ordinary citizens to access public records for background and location information, the report said. Consumers strongly oppose the government posting personally identified public information on the Internet. "However, opposition fades when specific safeguards are introduced," the report said. Safeguards included the government requiring the consent of the individual before displaying a public record file on the Internet and demanding a specific, legitimate purpose from a user before allowing their access. "Sensitive personal information, such as Social Security numbers or medical conditions, were removed prior to displaying the public record on the Internet," the report said. The sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet is a source of privacy abuse and identity theft. "Regulating the purchase and sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet won't come overnight," said Ron Plesser, a partner at Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolfe, Washington. "It's a challenge for industry how to use Social Security numbers properly." From baptista at pccf.net Thu Dec 7 22:38:05 2000 From: baptista at pccf.net (Joe Baptista) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 01:38:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <200012080623.eB86Nau12743@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: What I find most annoying about police entrapment is the damage to children these police offers are responsible for. Bob Matthews who heads up the anti child porn squad in ontario spends most of his days raiding the homes of potential child molesters who turn out to be kids. Alot of kids pretend to be much older when online and they end up being targeted by these perverted law enforment twits who end up sending them filth and effectively convencing our kids that this sort of thing is good. They are becoming the problem. On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > > > Apparently the FBI is now accepting Army applicant rejects as > > employees... > > > On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:09:06 -0500 MttwF at netscape.net writes: > > > Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male > > > porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to > > > find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. > > Either that, or Jeff Gordon has decided he likes little boys. :) > > -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697 From carlstephen33 at writeme.com Thu Dec 7 14:11:33 2000 From: carlstephen33 at writeme.com (carlstephen33 at writeme.com) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 06:11:33 +0800 (CST) Subject: [#1] Message-ID: <200012072211.GAA38199@ns1.capita.org> NEW AND EXCITING!! http://3506561041/iindex22/legal.html This Is A Weekly Mail List. To Be Removed Permanently Email permenentremoval at excite.com with "remove" somewhere in the subject line. PERMANENT REMOVAL!! From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 05:17:36 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:17:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A30D92B.330DE7F0@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > I didn't say they are veiled because they value privacy, did I? nope, I > didn't. stop reading into my words and start reading the words > themselves. thank you. I didn't say you did. I DID say your statement was misleading because it only mentions privacy. That isn't the only issue with your example. As a result, it's a weak argument. As usual, you pick an example, it has a couple of nit picks you skipped or thought unimportant, and you get all defensive when they're pointed out. Almost like you're still searching for Mr. Goodbar still... Pick your examples more carefully and explain them a bit more carefully and you won't have this problem. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 8 08:46:53 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:46:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, petro wrote: >Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: > >>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >>economics :-) Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same way? Bear From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 8 06:07:38 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:07:38 -0500 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/8/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/8/00, BNA Highlights wrote: > THOUGH TECHNOLOGY MIGHT HELP PRIVACY > A meeting of business leaders in Redmond, Washington led to > a frank debate over the insufficiency of North American > action on consumer privacy and the potential for technology > to play a key role in protecting such privacy. For example, > Bill Gates announced that the next version of IE would > better allow consumers to ascertain Web site privacy > policies. > http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/technology/08SECU.html -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Dec 8 09:23:53 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 09:23:53 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A30DFF2.4783A4DB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Jim Choate wrote: > > Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy concerns but > > property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things to > > those ragheads. Ken Brown wrote: > Jim is turning in to Tim... When Jews are murdering small children in reprisals against stone throwing by young men, and Arabs are blowing up school buses, then anti semitic statements against both Arabs and Jews become legitimate, indeed required. Are you an anti semite, or are you indifferent to the murder of children. Choose one. Yes, Virginia, not only are there individual evil people, but there are entire evil nations that demand and expect that their members do evil things, a demand widely supported and forcefully encouraged by the people of that nation. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG N6hvr8nWXopwCzktuWlQMZpBXyVkyyohyyGfxxcd 4aXcdw/9Raf7wyVHdrlnGQGeL79UzvNj/vRMzjF+p From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 09:45:57 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:45:57 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 1:41 PM +0100 12/8/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >Me wrote: In English it is preferable to write "I wrote," though "Me wrote" is honored in some subcultures. > > > if i were to cloak my desire for privacy in the words of the >> Great Squid, would it be more legitimate? > >does it matter? > >the point is that almost everyone even here is not willing to go to jail >or worse for "another tiny bit of privacy". we don't draw a sharp >boundary. we don't say, for example, that knowing my street is ok, but >knowing my house number is over the line. >and the total population is even worse. the vast majority of internet >users would give you pretty much anything for a minimal return ("one >hour free surfing"), and everything else for a larger one ("$100 for my >political and sexual preferences? sure.") > >the muslim veil, on the other hand, IS a sharp boundary. as I understand >it, it is NOT permisable to lift it in public under ANY circumstances. Me was making a different point, that presumably there is no legal distinction, at least in America, between the religion of Islam and the religion of the Great Squid. As to your language about "it is NOT permissable ...under ANY circumstances," there are many religious beliefs which are overruled by law in the U.S. Mormon polygamy (several spouses), for example. Peyote rituals, for another example. Though there are some "variations in regulations" allowable for various religions, such as rules about wearing hats in military services, etc., there is a very general principle in the U.S. which says that the law applies equally to all, regardless of religious beliefs. (This is a major reason for having a minimal state, with the set of laws only being the "Schelling points" (a game theory term many of us like to use) which nearly all persons can agree to.) The Great Squid has equal standing with Mohammed, in other words. Things are dramatically different in Germany and other countries, we all understand. But in the U.S., no particular religion is supposed to have any special favor in the eyes of the law. There are even Satanist chaplains/priests in the U.S. armed services. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 10:02:03 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:02:03 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:46 AM -0800 12/8/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, petro wrote: > >>Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: >> >>>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >>>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >>>economics :-) > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? > >Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here >as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art >for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same >way? > Distributed, fractal, peer-to-peer, nonhierarchical, geodesic, silk road, agoric, anarchic, are all terms basically describing the same sort of thing. Which term is whizzier is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I got tired several years ago of hearing everything described as a "fractal geodesic network." I don't know whether the term was coined by its chief user, Bob Hettinga, or by a similar propagandist, George Gilder, or by someone else. The naming issues are parallel to the issues with "open systems," "bazaar and the cathedral," etc. But I imagine others are tired of hearing me talk about crypto anarchy. I'm not sure "geodesic" captures the important issues. Are merchants in a Baghdad bazaar part of a "fractal geodesic network"? I suppose. But this is just a basic open market, with no top-down rules set. Is the Law Merchant a fractal geodesic network? Whatever. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Dec 8 07:10:35 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:10:35 -0500 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Message-ID: > Tom Vogt[SMTP:tom at ricardo.de] > > the muslim veil, on the other hand, IS a sharp boundary. as I understand > it, it is NOT permisable to lift it in public under ANY circumstances. > > rounding that up, I'd guess that if we were religious about our privacy, > things may be different (possibly just more ugly, but who knows). > Be careful about making sweeping generalizations about Islamic cultures; they vary almost as much as Christian and Jewish ones. While female modesty is a widely practiced virtue, it's implementation covers a wide range, from all-encompassing covering to a simple head scarf. Jim claims it has to do with 'property rights' the husband has in the wife. This really applies more to purdah, the practice of isolating women from society as a whole, or allowing them to contact non-family males only under carefully chaperoned situations. While veiling has some application to this, it is more done to prevent inciting male lust. If you grew up in a place where the only women you saw were either relatives, or completely veiled, a bare face or a 'glimpse of stocking' would be quite exciting. I've read articles written by Western women who have lived in countries where women were required to veil completely. Some of them actually came to rather like it - under the veil they had privacy - no one could mark them as a foreigner, they could come and go anywhere as easily as a native. Underneath they could dress for comfort, not style or appearance. They felt safer. Peter Trei From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Dec 8 07:14:55 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:14:55 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand Message-ID: > ---------- > From: Sean R. Lynch[SMTP:seanl at literati.org] > Reply To: Sean R. Lynch > Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 8:58 PM > To: petro > Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand > > <> > > Sean writes: >ASCII plain text *is* The Way. But guess what, PGP/MIME *is* plain text. >You can even parse it with your eyeballs. Sean: Guess what: Your message comes as an attachment, which I have to open seperately. Peter From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 10:52:19 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:52:19 -0800 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! Message-ID: [cryptography at c2.net removed from the distribution list. They claimed not to want any politics discussion, and they are a closed list, so why is political discussion going to it?] At 11:50 AM -0500 12/8/00, Adam Shostack wrote: >On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:07:38AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >| >| At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/8/00, BNA Highlights wrote: >| >| >| > THOUGH TECHNOLOGY MIGHT HELP PRIVACY >| > A meeting of business leaders in Redmond, Washington led to >| > a frank debate over the insufficiency of North American >| > action on consumer privacy and the potential for technology >| > to play a key role in protecting such privacy. For example, >| > Bill Gates announced that the next version of IE would >| > better allow consumers to ascertain Web site privacy >| > policies. >| > http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/technology/08SECU.html > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20001207/tc/forrester_exec_injects_security_summit_with_harsh_truths_1.html > >REDMOND, Wash. -- Just a few hours after Bill Gates opened Microsoft >Corp.'s (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) SafeNet 2000 security summit here >Thursday on an optimistic note, Forrester Research Inc.'s (Nasdaq:FORR >- news) John McCarthy blew it all up. I read the article (thanks for the URL). Nothing new, and, in fact, several of the old chestnuts about why regulation is needed. The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But the irony of juxtaposing Firestone and "customers dislike tracking" is delicious indeed! It is the existence of customer records--generally voluntarily provided by the customer--that allowed Firestone and Ford to contact hundreds of thousands of Explorer owners. I wonder if the author appreciates the irony here? All of this folderol about laws being needed to control privacy must be fought at every stage. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From boo at datashopper.dk Fri Dec 8 02:12:22 2000 From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:12:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: Denmark, update on Echelon Message-ID: Hi Just a short notice on the Echelon-discussion in Denmark The danish parliament Folketinget has declined to aid the EU committee which is investigating Echelon. The EU committee formally contacted the head of the parliaments permanent select committee for controlling the intelligence-services -- in danish: kontroludvalget for efterretningstjenesterne -- asking for information regarding parliamentary control with the danish intelligence services. No confidential information was asked for. Just the basic info on how the select committee works. The head of the committee, Thor Pedersen from the liberal party Venstre declined to aid the EU committee. He did this without informing the select committee or the parliament. This caused some uproar when we disclosed his doings in Ekstra Bladet, but later the decision has been upheld at a meeting in the select committee. Complaints have now been filed against Thor Pedersen. This means that Denmark is one of only two EU-countries parliaments have declined to help the EU committee: The other declining parliament is the british. No other EU countries have stepped aside. Indeed they have been rather helpful with the EU committee. Thor Pedersens decision has infuriated the members of EU-parliament Lone Dybkjaer, (party: Det Radikale Venstre, married to our prime minister) and Torben Lund, (party: Socialdemokratiet, which is the governing party in Denmark) Both are members of the EU committee, and both have declared they have no doubt Echelon exists. Meanwhile, the danish signals intelligence-service Forsvarets Efterretningstjeneste is continuing to upgrade their equipment. The SIGINT-site at Skibsbylejren has been equipped with three satellite dishes, all 18 meters across. There are plans to erect further three dishes of the same size. The dishes are solely planned for interceptions. According to building plans a radius around the area must be cleared of all electronic emissions, including cell phone towers and welding equipment. Also tall buildings will be prohibited in the area around the 30 meters tall radomes containing the dishes. Yours Bo Elkjaer, Denmark EOT From adam at homeport.org Fri Dec 8 08:50:24 2000 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:50:24 -0500 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/8/00) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20001208115024.A26551@weathership.homeport.org> On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:07:38AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: | | At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/8/00, BNA Highlights wrote: | | | > THOUGH TECHNOLOGY MIGHT HELP PRIVACY | > A meeting of business leaders in Redmond, Washington led to | > a frank debate over the insufficiency of North American | > action on consumer privacy and the potential for technology | > to play a key role in protecting such privacy. For example, | > Bill Gates announced that the next version of IE would | > better allow consumers to ascertain Web site privacy | > policies. | > http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/technology/08SECU.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20001207/tc/forrester_exec_injects_security_summit_with_harsh_truths_1.html REDMOND, Wash. -- Just a few hours after Bill Gates opened Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) SafeNet 2000 security summit here Thursday on an optimistic note, Forrester Research Inc.'s (Nasdaq:FORR - news) John McCarthy blew it all up. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 8 09:17:19 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:17:19 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 2863 bytes Desc: not available URL: From auto110413 at hushmail.com Fri Dec 8 13:08:31 2000 From: auto110413 at hushmail.com (auto110413 at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 13:08:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: ip: Chaos Theory Message-ID: <200012090914.BAA03460@user7.hushmail.com> So this is interesting, but you do understand that from a strictly logical perspective it's completely inconsistent and makes no sense whatsoever?? Mr. Murphy complains that Gaza does not meet this "requirements" for being an anarchy - I would then respectully ask "what does???".. If Gaza is not anarchy, has there EVER been an anarchy in all of recorded history? The "State," as a structure of social organization, exists even in communities of animals that are of substantial sub-human intelligence (e.g., wolf packs, lion prides, dophins, ants, most primates and most other social, intelligent animals all exhibit some form of "pecking order" that can loosely be interpreted to be power structures that self-organized out of "random chaos" (so to speak) so as to further the chances of survival for the species as a whole..) human governments are very similar, except they attempt to inject some degree of "civil procedures" into this otherwise life/death Darwinian drama.. If Mr. Murphy seeks a system where people own property and where other people respect this property, then what exactly, I ask, is wrong w/ Northern California?? Defining anarchy to be such a system (where people own property and other people respect this property) is a complete and total breakdown of all logical, rational reasoning.. I hope you also understand that from the perspective of a business man, perhaps the most important role that governments provide is not necessarily "an organized system of corrupt thugs to whom we pay protection money in the form of taxes" (to paragraph Mr. Murphy's arguments); instead, government most importantly provides business with an institution upon which businesses may pass on risk (if necessary).. ALL business is about minimizing risk, and the more that businesses are able to pass on risk to government (the "State", so to speak), the happier they are.. You need look no further than the DoD bailout of Iridium to see what I mean.. (there are MANY other such examples too..) If Mr. Murphy believes that it is possible to run a business absent government (i.e., in an anarchy), I suggest he quit the pot-smoking grad school scene, get a REAL job (preferabbly in Northern California) and see firsthand how the world REALLY works.. (perhaps AFTER he spends several months in Russia, so he can compare and constrast..) the word "anarcho-capitalist" has no reality for me.. nor should it for any rational, sane human being.. its substantially less than an oxymoron and makes NO SENSE whatsoever.. if you want to live in a world that sustains "anarchy-capitalism", you may as well live in a world where two people can eat the same piece of pizza or a person has the freedom to jump over the Moon (to cite examples from the article) > >A nice rant, below, from a fellow anarcho-capitalist lapsed conservative >apparently Hillsdale College grad. > >[I swear, folks, I *tried* snipping this to relevant bits. :-). I mean, >there's a URL in it and all, and, admittedly, he's preaching to the >choir >around here, but this is nicely done that I couldn't bring myself to >premasticate it for cypherpunk consumption.] > >Cheers, >RAH > > > >--- begin forwarded text > > >Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 20:35:04 -0600 >To: believer at telepath.com >From: "S. Hunter" (by way of believer at telepath.com) >Subject: ip: Chaos Theory > > >http://www.lewrockwell.com/murphy/murphy19.html > >Chaos Theory > >by Bob Murphy > >Throughout history, there have been countless arguments advanced to >support >the State. None of them has been valid. This essay will address a certain >class of these arguments, whose sleight-of-hand consists in a definitional >trick. My purpose here is not to make the positive case for pure >laissez-faire, but merely to show that each pro-government argument >is a >non sequitur. > >Anarchy is the absence of government, both in political science and >everyday usage (it is the first definition given by Websters, e.g.). >Chaos, in the context of social science, refers to lawlessness, or the >absence of a relative degree of regularity in human affairs. (I say >a >"relative degree" because, obviously, virtually all humans will always >obey >the rule of, e.g., avoiding someone with leprosy or not slaughtering >every female in sight. The laws to which lawlessness is opposed are >generally meant to imply the sometimes irksome rules necessary for a >civil >society.) > >[...] From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 8 05:09:23 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:09:23 +0000 Subject: Knowing your customer References: Message-ID: <3A30DD83.4EE3464F@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: [...] > I am not, of course, a banking lawyer, but I certainly hang out with enough > of those folks these days, I've certainly had enough of this stuff shoved > into my head over the years, and, I expect that to get a bank account > without a Social Security number in most states of the US, you probably > need to prove that you are indeed a foreign national, *and* provide a valid > passport as proof of same, and that, frankly, the passport number would be > used *somewhere* as a proxy for SSN where possible. I manage to pay some US income tax (on some share dividends) without ever having a US SSN. They seem happy not to identify you when they are taking your money. Funny that :-) [...] > Modern nation-states have bound up so much of their regulatory and tax > structure into book entry settlement, that it is very hard, more probably > impossible, to get a bank account in this country without being completely, > positively, whatever that means, identified -- biometrically identified, if > it were cheap enough, and certainly with a state-issued identification > number. UK domestic bank accounts usually require some proof of id, though not our equivalent of your SSN (The "national insurance number" - I suspect most people don't know theirs, but it is printed on every payslip & probably hard to keep secret). There is no official government id in UK, except for passports which of course many people have not got. Banks are very keen on proof of address, they ask to see "official" letters (like the gas bill - or an account from another bank) addressed to your name at your house. In fact it is all but impossible to get a bank account without a permanent address. As these days many employers only pay wages through bank accounts... well, that's just one of the reasons the number of homeless people in London went steadily up during the 1980s & early 1990s when employment and prosperity were increasing & the value of welfare benefits was falling. [...] Ken From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 8 05:19:46 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:19:46 +0000 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A30DFF2.4783A4DB@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Jim is turning in to Tim... Jim Choate wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: > > > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the "masquerade" > > is NON optional, and - as I understand it - they simply can't give in. > > contrary to all the internet privacy, where we are unwilling to give in > > to even more privacy being taken away, but we CAN (and 99% of your > > typical AOL user survey WILL, if they get offered, say, one hour free > > surfing). > > That's a tad misleading. Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy > concerns but property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things > to those ragheads. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 8 05:38:39 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:38:39 +0000 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A30E45F.9FA91C35@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Petro wrote: > > R. A. Hettinga wrote: [...] > >As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services > >in large cities. > > How do you know they don't? In every office or factory I've ever been in, including government ones where we kept paper copies of tax returns (yes folks, I have worked for the Inland Revenue) there are cleaners. They seem to come in 3 kinds - middle-aged black women, African students working their way through college, and people with vaguely asiatic features who sound as if they are speaking Portuguese. (Sometimes you get a few white students working their way through college but they are more likely to get jobs in bars) If I wanted to hire spies or assassins, I'd go for the middle-aged black women. Preferably short and dumpy and shabbily dressed. Someone who looks like a granny. They can go anywhere, no-one ever stops them or asks them who they are. An invisible woman to match Chesterton's Invisible Man. Ken From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 04:41:56 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:41:56 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> Me wrote: > > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the > > "masquerade" is NON optional, and - as I understand it > > - they simply can't give in. contrary to all the internet > privacy, > > where we are unwilling to give in to even more privacy being > > taken away, but we CAN > > if i were to cloak my desire for privacy in the words of the > Great Squid, would it be more legitimate? does it matter? the point is that almost everyone even here is not willing to go to jail or worse for "another tiny bit of privacy". we don't draw a sharp boundary. we don't say, for example, that knowing my street is ok, but knowing my house number is over the line. and the total population is even worse. the vast majority of internet users would give you pretty much anything for a minimal return ("one hour free surfing"), and everything else for a larger one ("$100 for my political and sexual preferences? sure.") the muslim veil, on the other hand, IS a sharp boundary. as I understand it, it is NOT permisable to lift it in public under ANY circumstances. rounding that up, I'd guess that if we were religious about our privacy, things may be different (possibly just more ugly, but who knows). From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 04:47:56 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:47:56 +0100 Subject: Knowing your customer References: Message-ID: <3A30D87C.AEC7C743@ricardo.de> Nomen Nescio wrote: > > I guess an equivalent ID will do. in germany, you need your ID card to > > open a bank account (um, for those not in the know: we have state-issue > > ID cards in addition to passports. the passport is a travel document, > > used to visit non-EU countries. the ID card is used inside the EU and > > for national purposes (identification, mostly). you are NOT required to > > have it with you all the time or somesuch, but some activities, such as > > opening a bank account, require an ID card. driving license or other > > documents will do in many cases, but I think not for bank accounts). > > How often must your ID card be renewed? What information does it (or the > ID database) contain that a German passport does not? it must be renewed every 10 or 5 years (there's two periods, I'm not sure which one applies in what cases). it contains: name, birthday and birth town, nationality, your signature (as you made it on the form), some string of number that contains your birth date and some other information I'm not sure about but which has most likely been published on the web somewhere. on the backside it contains addresse, height, colour of eyes and the issuing authority. there is also a field where you can have a pseudonym or religious name printed if you want to use it for any "official" activities (say, you're a rock star, actor or author and much more people know you under your pseudonmyn than under your real name). height and eye-colour are whatever you put in the form. I doubt it's ever checked. I know mine have been different on all ID cards I've had so far. the frontside also contains a picture of you, almost forgot that. I have no idea what kind of information is linked to this, i.e. what exactly a cop can pull out of his database by entering your ID number. From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 04:50:51 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:50:51 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A30D92B.330DE7F0@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the "masquerade" > > is NON optional, and - as I understand it - they simply can't give in. > > contrary to all the internet privacy, where we are unwilling to give in > > to even more privacy being taken away, but we CAN (and 99% of your > > typical AOL user survey WILL, if they get offered, say, one hour free > > surfing). > > That's a tad misleading. Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy > concerns but property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things > to those ragheads. I didn't say they are veiled because they value privacy, did I? nope, I didn't. stop reading into my words and start reading the words themselves. thank you. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 8 13:55:08 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:55:08 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001208135508.009e9a00@idiom.com> At 08:46 AM 12/8/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > >On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, petro wrote: > >>Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: >> >>>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >>>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >>>economics :-) > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? It depends on how many hops away from Bob Hettinga you are :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 12:35:52 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:35:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Trei, Peter wrote: > Jim claims it has to do with 'property rights' the husband has in the wife. 'had' would be more accurate. Until the mid-20'th century women were property (even in Christian countries). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 12:40:34 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:40:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, James A. Donald wrote: > When Jews are murdering small children in reprisals against stone throwing > by young men, and Arabs are blowing up school buses, then anti semitic > statements against both Arabs and Jews become legitimate, indeed required. I've been saying for nearly 20 years the Jews have become the Nazi's. Bottem line, neither side has hands that are not so bloody that they shouldn't all go home and beat their weapons into plow shears. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 12:47:05 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:47:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Distributed, fractal, peer-to-peer, nonhierarchical, geodesic, silk > road, agoric, anarchic, are all terms basically describing the same > sort of thing. Which term is whizzier is in the eye of the beholder. > > Personally, I got tired several years ago of hearing everything > described as a "fractal geodesic network." I don't know whether the 'geodesic' means the shortest possible path, with respect to the geometry of the 'space', between two points. Fractal simply means non-integer dimension. Computer networks, at least copper or fiber based, can't be fractal. The traffic patterns can have fractal patterns (e.g. Foucault Dust periodicity) but that isn't the same thing at all. 'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet paths. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 8 15:57:49 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:57:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > >Fractal simply means non-integer dimension. > Yeah, that's where it started. But I'm using it more in the sense of meaning the properties that fractal structures have; self-similarity across scales, for one, as in the big nodes work the same way as the little nodes and larger patterns are emergent from the interaction of simple rules. >Computer networks, at least copper or fiber based, can't be fractal. Physically, true. There is a minimum size feature, in the sense that some computing hardware and memory is required of every node. In terms of the flow of information, I'm not as sure. >The >traffic patterns can have fractal patterns (e.g. Foucault Dust >periodicity) but that isn't the same thing at all. The traffic patterns *ARE* the network. If the network has fractal traffic patterns, the network is fractal. >'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. Yup. Mutually exclusive sets of properties. >And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet >paths. At the lower levels in user-land and very small ISP's, it seems to be hierarchical (eg, I have an "uplink" who connects me to the rest of the Internet, and people who connect through my system treat me as their uplink...). But at major nodes like big ISP's and server farms, it's more like a distributed or peer-to-peer network (eg, my uplink has several dozen peers, each with independent connections to other points on the internet, and they each maintain independent connections to several different "backbone sites", and the backbone sites are connected both via dedicated links peer-to-peer *and* via all the ISP's that have connections to more than one of the backbone sites ....) Anyway, once you get up out of hierarchy levels, I think the Internet starts looking a lot more fractal -- self-similarity across scales in traffic flow, emergent bandwidth and load patterns, etc. Bear From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 07:18:32 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:18:32 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: Message-ID: <3A30FBC8.8282F1F6@ricardo.de> Jim Choate wrote: > > I didn't say they are veiled because they value privacy, did I? nope, I > > didn't. stop reading into my words and start reading the words > > themselves. thank you. > > I didn't say you did. I DID say your statement was misleading because it > only mentions privacy. That isn't the only issue with your example. As a > result, it's a weak argument. > > As usual, you pick an example, it has a couple of nit picks you skipped > or thought unimportant, and you get all defensive when they're pointed > out. Almost like you're still searching for Mr. Goodbar still... > > Pick your examples more carefully and explain them a bit more carefully > and you won't have this problem. eh, where exactly is your problem? frankly, I don't care if people without brains could get "mislead" or something I said has a hair in it that you can split. maybe I should add a disclaimer to my mails: "some intelligence required. parts not included" From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 8 07:23:20 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:23:20 +0100 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] References: Message-ID: <3A30FCE8.8140BE@ricardo.de> "Trei, Peter" wrote: > > rounding that up, I'd guess that if we were religious about our privacy, > > things may be different (possibly just more ugly, but who knows). > > > Be careful about making sweeping generalizations about Islamic cultures; > they vary almost as much as Christian and Jewish ones. While female > modesty is a widely practiced virtue, it's implementation covers a wide > range, from all-encompassing covering to a simple head scarf. point taken. I've had little first-hand experience with anything in this direction, I just happen to live in a country with a considerable islamic population (among others, the largest number of turks outside turkey, according to some statistics). From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 17:46:10 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:46:10 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:57 PM -0800 12/8/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > >> >>Fractal simply means non-integer dimension. >> > >Yeah, that's where it started. But I'm using it more in the >sense of meaning the properties that fractal structures have; >self-similarity across scales, for one, as in the big nodes >work the same way as the little nodes and larger patterns are >emergent from the interaction of simple rules. > >>Computer networks, at least copper or fiber based, can't be fractal. > >Physically, true. There is a minimum size feature, in the sense >that some computing hardware and memory is required of every node. >In terms of the flow of information, I'm not as sure. Argghhhh. Anyone claiming that something "can't be fractal," as Choate apparently does in the section you quote, just doesn't understand the meaning of fractal. Or, in Choateworld, "Since all physical things have three spatial dimensions, there are no non-integer dimensions, and hence fractals cannot exist." Like Choatian physics, Choatian economics, Choatian law, and Choatian history, such crankish ideas are neither useful nor interesting. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 8 17:49:47 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 17:49:47 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> At 02:47 PM 12/8/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. Well, buzzword bingo output anyway. >And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet >paths. ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From feedback at tapdirect.com Fri Dec 8 17:13:58 2000 From: feedback at tapdirect.com (feedback at tapdirect.com) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:13:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: Home Improvement for Christmas Message-ID: <45Z484OT.0Z69BW21@tapdirect.com> Give our popular Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips eBook as a gift to your favorite do-it-yourselfer. Now is the time before the Christmas rush to receive it for yourself or a friend. What a quick and easy solution for home improvement help in time for Christmas! Remember, the eBook reveals how to save 35% on supplies and appliances, and 50% on hand tools and power tools. Also, how to get maintenance or repair professionals for a lot less money without sacrificing quality, how to keep from getting ripped off and much more. And, you can have it all on your computer for easy reference or send it as a gift for that special someone. 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Tom Skinner, Owner Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips From feedback at tapdirect.com Fri Dec 8 17:13:59 2000 From: feedback at tapdirect.com (feedback at tapdirect.com) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:13:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Home Improvement for Christmas Message-ID: Give our popular Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips eBook as a gift to your favorite do-it-yourselfer. Now is the time before the Christmas rush to receive it for yourself or a friend. What a quick and easy solution for home improvement help in time for Christmas! Remember, the eBook reveals how to save 35% on supplies and appliances, and 50% on hand tools and power tools. Also, how to get maintenance or repair professionals for a lot less money without sacrificing quality, how to keep from getting ripped off and much more. And, you can have it all on your computer for easy reference or send it as a gift for that special someone. Our easy to read text file eBook fully covers all these topics: Kitchens, Bathrooms, Color, Plumbing, Wiring, Painting, Remodeling to add Space, Storage, Flooring, Doors & Windows, Fences, and Decks. Each of the twelve sections includes fixup and repair projects with how-to information and step by step instructions. This entire eBook can be on your computer in just a few minutes. Download it for yourself or send it to a friend or relative as a Christmas gift. Please go now to http://www.tapdirect.com/kitchentips.htm for the most current information on remodeling and home improvement help. Click on the SECURE ORDER FORM button to order with confidence on our secure server. You have nothing to lose! Our satisfaction guarantee covers you completely. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays! Tom Skinner, Owner Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 19:29:40 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:29:40 -0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001209020842.00922bd0@zebra.swip.net> References: <4.1.20001209020842.00922bd0@zebra.swip.net> Message-ID: At 2:26 AM +0100 12/9/00, Mats O. Bergstrom wrote: >At 10:52 2000-12-08 -0800, Tim May wrote: > >>[cryptography at c2.net removed from the distribution list. They claimed >>not to want any politics discussion, and they are a closed list, so >>why is political discussion going to it?] > >As I remember ancient history it was the coderpunks offspin refusing >any politics while "Perry's list" - cryptography - started with the intent of >allowing crypto-politics and related subjects that the moderator would >let through. Anyway, "Perrygrams" have become almost extinct on the >cryptographt list lately. Whatever. The modus operandi is for someone to create His Own List and then issue the rules and tell people he doesn't want politics talked about. Unless, of course, he is the one talking politics, or unless he likes what others are saying. Fine that people want such closed lists, whether Perrypunks, Lewispunks, Declanpunks, Hettingapunks, whatever. Just don't crosspost from their closed lists to our open list, is all I ask. (Every time I write a message pointing this out, I can count on getting a snippygram from one of them saying that I am perfectly free to become a member of their lists and thus be able to post. No thanks, on general grounds. Plus, I am not interesting in writing an essay and then having my submission blocked by Perry or Lewis or whomever. I accept their propertarian right to do such blockage, of course. Doesn't make it what I want, or what I think the community benefits from.) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 19:32:43 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 19:32:43 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 10:17 PM -0500 12/8/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 5:49 PM -0800 on 12/8/00, Bill Stewart wrote: > > >> At 02:47 PM 12/8/00 -0600, Jim Choate emetted: >>>'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. >> >> Well, buzzword bingo output anyway. > >:-). "Neological" is so much more... euphemisitic... > >>>And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet >>>paths. >> >> ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... > >Depends on what dimension you're measuring. For fun, I pick time. > >I leave a definition of fractal time to the more mathematically creative >out there. You're the one using it, so why would you ask us to try to guess what you mean? Unless you are saying you were just hand-waving, which would make Choate's point, much as I am loathe to admit. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 18:35:51 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 20:35:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Argghhhh. Anyone claiming that something "can't be fractal," as > Choate apparently does in the section you quote, just doesn't > understand the meaning of fractal. > > Or, in Choateworld, "Since all physical things have three spatial > dimensions, there are no non-integer dimensions, and hence fractals > cannot exist." Bullshit. I find fractals all the time. I make a good part of my living dealing with them. > > Like Choatian physics, Choatian economics, Choatian law, and Choatian > history, such crankish ideas are neither useful nor interesting. > Counter arguments, instead of ad hominims, eagerly awaited... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 18:41:55 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 20:41:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > > > > > Or, in Choateworld, "Since all physical things have three spatial > > dimensions, there are no non-integer dimensions, and hence fractals > > cannot exist." As a person who holds a physics degree you should know the best guess number of dimenions is somewhere in the 20+ range (ie Super Symmetry). Some of those dimensions are linear (ie x-axis) and some have very little 'lenght' at all, and others are 'twisted' back upon themselves. You should also know better than to try to seperate the time from the space dimensions. It's hard to discuss concepts like 'phase space' without a time dimension (especially in the context of a network). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody at digilicious.com Fri Dec 8 21:59:07 2000 From: nobody at digilicious.com (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 21:59:07 -0800 Subject: NYT:The Nexus of Privacy and Security Message-ID: <1fd216bf68ef0c46a61ff69fbd7b19a4@digilicious.com> By JOHN SCHWARTZ EDMOND, Wash., Dec. 7 Q Trust us. Please? That is the message from leaders of high-technology businesses and advocacy groups at SafeNet 2000, a Microsoft-sponsored conference on computer security and privacy. The stated purpose of the conference, which opened here today, is to reach a consensus on issues like when and how to publicize vulnerabilities in a vendor's software Q like, say, Microsoft's Q that could compromise privacy or data security. But the freewheeling panel discussions today touched on all the major policy issues facing high technology companies. And it showed, as Microsoft's chairman, William H. Gates, said in a keynote address, that privacy and security "are tied together in a very deep way." Announcing a Microsoft initiative on consumer privacy, Mr. Gates said the next version of the company's Internet Explorer software for browsing the Internet would incorporate a technology that could make it easier to ascertain the privacy policies on Web sites. The conversation at the conference was remarkably frank, and sometimes quarrelsome. In a discussion of privacy issues, Nick Mansfield of Shell Services International, a computer services subsidiary of the Royal Dutch/Shell Group, praised consumer privacy rules passed by the European Union and said that in contrast, "I don't see anything intelligent in the privacy field in North America." The comment elicited a murmur of irritation in the packed meeting room, but a few minutes later, Microsoft's own chief privacy officer, Richard Purcell, said much the same thing. Consumers, he said, merely see an industry that is squabbling over position in the market, not one that is moving forward with any coherence on privacy issues. "How do we get to that vocabulary, that purpose and that channel of communication," he asked, "that assures consumers that we aren't a lot of evil-headed monsters?" It was notable, though little remarked by the attendees, that the conference's host has often been at the center of the privacy and security debate. Some of the most prominent computer virus attacks, including the "I Love You" program started early this year in the Philippines and the Melissa program last year, took advantage of the vulnerability of Microsoft's wares and their near- ubiquity around the globe. Some who did not attend the conference were not so gentle. "The irony of it is amazing," Jeff Bates, editor of the online technology news site known as Slashdot, said in an e- mail interview. He accused Microsoft of being "a company that leaves me vulnerable to security holes so that it can make my screen look prettier." Others at the conference noted that one of the meeting's goals Q to come up with standard procedures for reporting software flaws Q would serve Microsoft well, since it has long been the victim of "gotcha" announcements that describe bugs before the company has had a chance to fix them. A former hacker who goes solely by the name of Mudge, who now works as a security consultant, defended Microsoft for having changed since the days when he and his friends would gleefully publish examples of its software flaws on the Internet. "There was a time when they would treat an information release quite differently," he said, by trying to sweep the problem under a rug. In recent years, Microsoft has poured money and personnel into responding to bugs, and has improved its relations with those who publicize them, Mudge said. Describing the new privacy features in Internet Explorer, Mr. Gates said they would let consumers decide what level of privacy protection they need Q whether, for example, the machine should accept cookies, the software deposited in consumers' PC's by Web sites to track visitors. The system, known as Platform for Privacy Preferences Project, or P3P, has long been under independent development. But the announcement means that Microsoft is pulling back from a simpler approach to giving consumers more control over their cookies by letting them block all "third party" cookies, those originating from sites other than the one that the Web surfer is visiting. Such cookies irk many privacy advocates, who say that they expose consumers to scrutiny by advertising firms, for example, without their knowledge or consent. On the security side, Mr. Gates said Microsoft, which suffered an embarrassing series of hacker intrusions in October, had been trying to act as a model for other companies by instituting a pilot program using "smart cards" to restrict access to the inner workings of the company's computer networks. The project put the cards into the hands of about 1,000 system administrators, who must insert them into special readers on their computers to make any changes on the company's networks. Barry Steinhardt of the American Civil Liberties Union said the example showed the frequent tension between privacy and security, since the technology allows a person's movements to be tracked when a door is opened or a PC used. Smart cards, he said, "have value as security technology, but they are very destructive of privacy Q you're identified everywhere you go." Mr. Gates called for enhancing network security systems to help people get the information they want, block the mail they do not want and prevent computer intrusion. Moments after his speech, Microsoft's public relations firm sent out press releases announcing that the kinds of security software described by the Microsoft chairman were available from Microsoft. From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Fri Dec 8 21:13:12 2000 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 22:13:12 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: update HONG KONG--Siemens has a solution for people who constantly forget computer passwords: a mouse that recognizes fingerprints. Called the ID Mouse, the device uses biometrics to take advantage of the unique features of people's fingerprints. German electronics maker Siemens, which showed off the ID Mouse this week at the ITU Asia Telecom 2000 fair, said the device works by allowing pre-authorized people to retrieve information from their PCs or laptops. By lightly tapping the fingertip sensor located at the top of the mouse, the device verifies the fingerprint against reference templates already input into the PC's system. Once a fingerprint is authenticated, the person can then access the PC's main operating system. Siemens is one of numerous companies headed in the direction of using unique features for identification. The mouse is powered by 65,000 sensing elements on the 0.25 square-inch fingertip chip that enables the device to scan and capture the fine details of a fingerprint. The system is so sensitive that it will recognize an authorized person even if there is a cut on the fingertip. For added security, if the mouse user takes a break, the screensaver is activated until the person touches the ID Mouse again. Other than that, the ID Mouse operates just like any Microsoft mouse. It has a wheel scroll for navigation and requires at least Microsoft Windows 98 and a USB connection. This week's conference is the International Telecommunications Union's 23rd telecom show since its 1971 debut in Geneva. The six-day fair, which ends Saturday, took place in Hong Kong this year and was expected to attract at least 50,000 visitors from more than 50 countries. Singapore.CNET.com's Priscilla Wong reported from Hong Kong. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 8 19:17:04 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 22:17:04 -0500 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 5:49 PM -0800 on 12/8/00, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 02:47 PM 12/8/00 -0600, Jim Choate emetted: >>'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. > > Well, buzzword bingo output anyway. :-). "Neological" is so much more... euphemisitic... >>And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet >>paths. > > ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... Depends on what dimension you're measuring. For fun, I pick time. I leave a definition of fractal time to the more mathematically creative out there. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 8 20:33:49 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 22:33:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > > ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... > If you think about it this is actually one way to view the Internet. Consider the highest layer nodes. Place them equidistant on a sphere and interconnect them with links. Whether they are geodesic or not isn't relevant (unless you'r using a shortest-path algorithm, which we don't). Anyway. The next thing you do is connect each single user machine to it's appropriate node. Cluster them in a similar manner. You get a globe with little partial globe 'bumps' centered on each 'parent' node. Then from each of these parent nodes, using a different length path for distinguishing, list the multi-user nodes. Then interconnect these nodes. Repeat add infinitum (well you can't realy since the lowest level link, a single ppp link for example can't be broken down into smaller physical links, the net is pseudo-fractal at best at this scale). You can also do them as 'sea urchins'. The reality is that the Internet, as big as it is, is simply too small by several orders of magnitude to be modelled by anything approaching a true fractal. However, by looking at it from the perspective of emergent behaviour from simple rules we can probably gain more understanding and control over its use. Something akin to cellular automatons with simple neighborhood rules interconnected by 'small network' models. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 8 22:44:02 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 22:44:02 -0800 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:14 AM -0500 12/8/00, Trei, Peter wrote: > > > <> >> > > >Sean writes: > >>ASCII plain text *is* The Way. But guess what, PGP/MIME *is* plain text. >>You can even parse it with your eyeballs. > > >Sean: Guess what: Your message comes as an attachment, which I have >to open seperately. > >Peter By the way, the same problems with MIME, HTML, attachments, etc. is hitting the Newsgroups as well. Some of the newsgroup folks are posting reminders (from charters, FAQs) not to do this. Here's one I just saw in the comp.lang.ruby group: " (a) General format guidelines: - Use *plain* text; don't use HTML, RTF, or Word. - Include examples from files as *in-line* text; don't use attachments. - PLEASE NOTE! Include quoted text from previous posts *BEFORE* your responses. And *selectively* quote as much as is relevant. " Good advice for our list as well. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From allyn at well.com Fri Dec 8 23:38:08 2000 From: allyn at well.com (Mark Allyn) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:38:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi: I did not know about laws forbidding wearing masks. I see masks everywhere during Haloween. Is this illegal? Mark From cab8 at censored.org Fri Dec 8 23:53:21 2000 From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol A Braddock) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:53:21 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks References: Message-ID: <02a101c061b5$1a5225e0$cc38e43f@happycat> perhaps the scale larger than the highest layer nodes is no longer recognisable as being part of the fractal. Likewise the nodes at each ppp have some organization as to how they handle data internaly. The shape of a shoreline is often used to illustrate fractal self similarity, but you quickly reach a point where it is hard to call it a shoreline anymore, it becomes grains of sand, pebbles, or boulders. So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would the number be good for? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" To: Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Fractal geodesic networks > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > > > > > ....more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... > > > > If you think about it this is actually one way to view the Internet. > Consider the highest layer nodes. Place them equidistant on a sphere and > interconnect them with links. Whether they are geodesic or not isn't > relevant (unless you'r using a shortest-path algorithm, which we don't). > > Anyway. The next thing you do is connect each single user machine to it's > appropriate node. Cluster them in a similar manner. You get a globe with > little partial globe 'bumps' centered on each 'parent' node. Then from > each of these parent nodes, using a different length path for > distinguishing, list the multi-user nodes. Then interconnect these nodes. > Repeat add infinitum (well you can't realy since the lowest level link, a > single ppp link for example can't be broken down into smaller physical > links, the net is pseudo-fractal at best at this scale). > > You can also do them as 'sea urchins'. > > The reality is that the Internet, as big as it is, is simply too small > by several orders of magnitude to be modelled by anything approaching a > true fractal. However, by looking at it from the perspective of emergent > behaviour from simple rules we can probably gain more understanding and > control over its use. Something akin to cellular automatons with simple > neighborhood rules interconnected by 'small network' models. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From alan at clueserver.org Fri Dec 8 23:58:25 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 23:58:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mark Allyn wrote: > I did not know about laws forbidding wearing masks. I see masks everywhere > during Haloween. Is this illegal? *EVERYTHING* is Illegal. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From bear at sonic.net Sat Dec 9 00:16:13 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the US, to appear in public wearing a mask. Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. Dunno about other countries and other states. Bear On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mark Allyn wrote: > >Hi: > >I did not know about laws forbidding wearing masks. I see masks everywhere >during Haloween. Is this illegal? > >Mark > > From bear at sonic.net Sat Dec 9 00:30:40 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:30:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: fingerprint mouse. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Anonymous wrote: >update HONG KONG--Siemens has a solution for people who constantly forget computer passwords: a mouse that recognizes fingerprints. > > >By lightly tapping the fingertip sensor located at the top of the mouse, the device verifies the fingerprint against reference templates already input into the PC's system. Once a fingerprint is authenticated, the person can then access the PC's main operating system. Oh, right. And nobody could *possibly* dust it for fingerprints, etch a fingerprint into a rubber pad, and tap the rubber pad on the sensor. That might take what, a whole hour? Plus all the replay attacks, the possibility of induction monitoring on the mouse cable, software that captures the digitized fingerprint from the serial buffer, software that replaces the file that the fingerprint data is kept in, etc... My biggest problem with this is that people using it will *think* their data is secure. Bear From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Dec 9 00:33:24 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 00:33:24 -0800 Subject: Mask Laws: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001209003324.00934780@idiom.com> >"Trei, Peter" wrote: >> Unless there is a specific loophole for Muslim women's veils, I suppose >> they are technically in violation, but as I said, these laws are hardly >> ever invoked. If say, there were a rash of terrorist attacks involving >> veiled persons occured, there'd be crackdown. One of the reasons for mask laws is *specifically* veiled terrorists - wearing white spook outfits. The KKK is fortunately past its heyday, and the more common police problems when they hold marches are keeping the crowds from beating them up and unmasking them. Another reason for such laws may be bank robbers and highwaymen, but it's mostly the Klan. I did hear there was a case in Detroit or somewhere about mask laws being applied to veiled women, but the loophole to go for is the First Amendment protections on religious freedom. France, on the other hand, has had public schools ban girls from wearing head coverings, primarily because they emphasize the cultural differences. I read an article a while back about how the black dress outfit was becoming very common among Egyptian businesswomen. Not because they were traditionalists, but because the alternative, at least in Cairo, was that they were expected to dress fashionably and expensively, even though Egyption salaries for women haven't caught up with salaries for men, and the black dress is cheap, often more comfortable, and has enough traditional support that nobody can argue. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 9 00:45:21 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 00:45:21 -0800 Subject: fingerprint mouse. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:30 AM -0800 12/9/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Anonymous wrote: > >>update HONG KONG--Siemens has a solution for people who constantly >>forget computer passwords: a mouse that recognizes fingerprints. >> >> >>By lightly tapping the fingertip sensor located at the top of the >>mouse, the device verifies the fingerprint against reference >>templates already input into the PC's system. Once a fingerprint is >>authenticated, the person can then access the PC's main operating >>system. > >Oh, right. And nobody could *possibly* dust it for fingerprints, >etch a fingerprint >into a rubber pad, and tap the rubber pad on the sensor. That might >take what, >a whole hour? Less, for a black bag agent. And black bag entries are becoming a standard, court-authorized measure. I wonder how long before a court-authorized measure will be simply mugging a target and cutting off his ID finger. When government adopts the MO of the thief, all things are possible. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From emd at ta3.so-net.ne.jp Fri Dec 8 08:27:48 2000 From: emd at ta3.so-net.ne.jp (Delivery Boy) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 01:27:48 +0900 (JST) Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCOiNMayRPJDMkQSRpJEcbKEI=?= Message-ID: <200012081627.BAA28712@mail.ta3.so-net.ne.jp> ã„ã¤ã‚‚ã®æŽ²ç¤ºæ¿ãƒ»å‡ºä¼šã„・メールフレンドサイトをã”利用戴ã 有り難ã†ã”ã–ã„ã¾ã™ã€‚ 本日ã¯æ–°ã—ã„サイトã®ã”案内をã•ã›ã¦æˆ´ãã¾ã™ã€‚ http://homepage2.nifty.com/degedock/mori/ ã‚‚ã—ã€ã”ä¸è¦ã§ã—ãŸã‚‰å‰Šé™¤ã—ã¦ä¸‹ã•ã„。 今後ã€ã“ã®ã”案内メールã”ä¸è¦ã®å ´åˆã¯ã€ ãŠæ‰‹æ•°ã§ã™ãŒã€Œãƒªã‚¿ãƒ¼ãƒ³ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ãƒ«ã€ã—ã¦é ‚ã‘ã‚Œã°æ¬¡å›žã‚ˆã‚Šå‰Šé™¤è‡´ã—ã¾ã™ （時間差ã«ã‚ˆã‚Šé‡è¤‡ã™ã‚‹å ´åˆãŒã”ã–ã„ã¾ã™ã€€ãã®éš›ã¯ã”容赦下ã•ã„） ã”æ„見・ã”希望・ã”感想ãªã©ã€ã”é æ…®ãªãã“ã¡ã‚‰ã¾ã§ emd at ta3.so-net.ne.jp From mob at mbox301.swipnet.se Fri Dec 8 17:26:54 2000 From: mob at mbox301.swipnet.se (Mats O. Bergstrom) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 02:26:54 +0100 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20001209020842.00922bd0@zebra.swip.net> At 10:52 2000-12-08 -0800, Tim May wrote: >[cryptography at c2.net removed from the distribution list. They claimed >not to want any politics discussion, and they are a closed list, so >why is political discussion going to it?] As I remember ancient history it was the coderpunks offspin refusing any politics while "Perry's list" - cryptography - started with the intent of allowing crypto-politics and related subjects that the moderator would let through. Anyway, "Perrygrams" have become almost extinct on the cryptographt list lately. //Mob From mis at itiaccess.com Sat Dec 9 03:00:47 2000 From: mis at itiaccess.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:00:47 -0800 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> update HONG KONG--Siemens has a solution for people who constantly forget computer passwords: a mouse that recognizes fingerprints. [...] Hasn't any seen the movie 6th Day? Who needs a password when you can borrow the necessary biometric token from its owner if you have a hatchet or decent knife? From urban247 at urban247.com Sat Dec 9 01:30:38 2000 From: urban247 at urban247.com (urban247) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 03:30:38 -0600 Subject: THE NEXT BLACK MUSIC FAZE-OUT // SPORTS & SOCIETY Message-ID: <200012101919.OAA18141@renown.cnchost.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 19582 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpg Size: 10836 bytes Desc: not available URL: From commerce at home.com Sat Dec 9 00:42:28 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 03:42:28 -0500 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] References: Message-ID: <00d101c061bb$f73fb520$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Allyn" > I see masks everywhere during Haloween. Is this illegal? Probably; most things are. But, as long as you don't confess, how could it be proven? From nobody at dizum.com Fri Dec 8 21:50:12 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 06:50:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: Microsoft banned from security email list Message-ID: <545b881f6d7d70ae68d7a2562fadc1cb@dizum.com> By Stephen Shankland Staff Writer, CNET News.com December 8, 2000, 1:05 p.m. PT URL: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-4062758.html The administrator of a popular computer security mailing list banned postings from Microsoft on Thursday after the company stripped detailed information out of its advisories, but a compromise is likely on the way. Microsoft last week pared down the security warnings it sends by email to the Bugtraq and NT-Bugtraq mailing lists as well as to 130,000 other subscribers who want to know about vulnerabilities and fixes to Microsoft software, said Scott Culp, Microsoft's security program manger. Instead, the emails include a link to a Web page with additional details. Microsoft made the change so customers get the most up-to-date and accurate information rather than potentially out-of-date news from an archived email. "The goal is to make sure the information is as useful as it can be, it's timely, and it's accurate," he said. But he acknowledged Microsoft still must send new email out if the Web site changes. Bugtraq moderator Elias Levy thought the change was a step in the wrong direction. "I will no longer be approving any advisories with little or no content that point you to some other place for information," he said in a posting Wednesday. The change meant information is a step farther away, not archived and available in a single central source that might not always be available, he said. The dispute marks another chapter in the sometimes rocky relationship between Microsoft and security experts. While outside programmers often find problems with Microsoft's software, sometimes they earn Microsoft's ire by publishing the vulnerability before Microsoft has time to fix it. Levy wasn't the only one to complain. In a note Friday, programmer Forrest Cavalier voted to resurrect the older format, saying Microsoft has been known to move Web pages so older addresses no longer work. "There was a time that Microsoft URLs had a half-life of a few months," he said. Russ Cooper, moderator of a different security mailing list called NT-Bugtraq, applauded Microsoft's change. "Its very easy to have conflicting information about the scope of a vulnerability depending on which email version of the bulletin you're looking at," he said in a Wednesday posting. Culp, who spoke Friday with Levy at a Microsoft security conference, said Microsoft expects to change the format of the advisories to compromise. "There's a trade-off between how often can you send the (advisory) vs. the extra step of going to the Web page. Somewhere in there is a middle ground," Culp said. Levy began posting text versions of the Microsoft Web pages, but he said Microsoft told him "in no uncertain terms" that reproducing the information "would be considered an act of copyright violation." "So until Microsoft changes their policy or changes their email bulletins back to the old format, you won't see them on the list," Levy said. Microsoft is seeking email comment on the new advisory format. About 1,500 people so far have sent their opinions to the secfdbck at microsoft.com email address, he said. Levy couldn't be reached for comment today. Another change that comes with the new format is that Microsoft can track who is reading its Web advisories through the use of invisible tracking software called Web bugs, according to Privacy Foundation chief technology officer Richard Smith, who noted that he didn't see that as "a big deal." "One thing that Microsoft is learning here is what bulletins people consider important," he said in a posting to Bugtraq. "With the older format, where all the info was in an email message, they did not get this feedb From nobody at dizum.com Fri Dec 8 22:00:15 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:00:15 +0100 (CET) Subject: Personal Firewalls Fail the Leak Test Message-ID: By Brian McWilliams In an attempt to show that personal firewalls may afford their users little protection against serious threats, a respected PC security expert has released a new software tool that pokes holes in many of the leading desktop security packages. Security-conscious Internet users, especially those on broadband connections, have made desktop firewall software into a booming business for companies like Symantec and Network Associates. But according to Steve Gibson, president of Gibson Research, almost all of these utilities only provide "pseudo protection" against attacks. That's because they put most of their effort into blocking incoming hacker attacks, while paying only scant attention to what he calls internal extrusion. "I really believe the problem of software in your computer misbehaving is much bigger than the problem of hacker attacks. Most people don't have any vulnerabilities; there's nothing a hacker can do to you. So I argue against the necessity of any kind of inbound blocking tool," said Gibson. To prove his point, Gibson has developed a free utility called LeakTest. The 27-Kbytes program is a trojan-horse/spyware simulator that attempts to slip past a personal firewall's defenses and connect to a server on the Internet. Not surprisingly, popular intrusion detection programs like BlackIce Defender from Network Ice fail to catch the outgoing connection and report it to the user. But more disturbingly, several firewalls that claim to offer outbound detection are also fooled by LeakTest. Among them, the best selling Norton Personal Firewall and McAfeeFirewall. Both are among a small number of desktop firewall programs that attempt to address the problem of unauthorized outbound leakage, but Gibson says they fall short and can be easily fooled or bypassed because they come pre-programmed to allow some applications to pass through the firewall. "This idea of allowing all these apps pre-approval is ludicrous. It's trivial to get permission out of the firewall without notifying the user," said Gibson, who observed that only one firewall, ZoneLab's ZoneAlarm, prevents malware from masquerading as a trusted program. "They do a cryptographic signature of the programs you're allowing. That's not hard to do, but they're the only ones who do it," he said. Tom Powledge, Symantec's product manager for Norton Internet Security, said the risks outlined by Gibson are low if users are running both a firewall and anti-virus software. And he said Symantec knows of no instances of programs that specifically target Norton Personal Firewall, which is shipped with NIS. But in response to Gibson's critique, Symantec plans to revise the application integrity checking feature in NIS, with an update available to users over Live Update by early next week. In the meantime, Powledge said concerned users can turn off automatic firewall rule creation. Judging by comments on the LeakTest message board at Gibson's site, plenty of users are concerned about the newly exposed porosity of their favorite firewall software. But Symantec's Powledge said their fears could have been avoided if Gibson had given vendors the customary advance notice before releasing LeakTest. "We were seeing no concern about this, and no exploits have been written. And while this makes customers aware of a potential issue, it also makes hackers aware," said Powledge. But Gibson, who had an earlier run-in with RealNetworks over the privacy behavior of its RealDownload product, said he's learned that unless pressure is brought to bear, companies are resistant to change. "These firewalls are not going to get better unless there's someone saying and able to prove -- and to enable the user to prove -- that these things are junk." From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 9 07:40:47 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 07:40:47 -0800 Subject: ip: Chaos Theory In-Reply-To: <200012090914.BAA03460@user7.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209072841.020512c0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 01:08 PM 12/8/2000 -0800, auto110413 at hushmail.com wrote: > Mr. Murphy complains that Gaza does not meet this "requirements" for > being an anarchy - I would then respectully ask "what does???".. If > Gaza is not anarchy, has there EVER been an anarchy in all of > recorded history? The "State," as a structure of social > organization, exists even in communities of animals that are of > substantial sub-human intelligence (e.g., wolf packs, lion prides, > dophins, ants, most primates and most other social, intelligent > animals all exhibit some form of "pecking order" that can loosely be > interpreted to be power structures that self-organized out of > "random chaos" A state is a monopoly of legitimate force. What makes a state a state is that the policeman can whack me, and I cannot whack the policeman. This destroys and undermines law, it does not sustain law. Only a few animals have such severe inequality of force, mostly less intelligent ones, (chickens, social insects), and humans have not had a pecking order this severe and extreme throughout most of our evolution. What makes Gaza not an anarchy is that it has policemen, and these policemen answer to a single central authority. It is not absence of laws that makes places anarchic, but absence of rulers. > I hope you also understand that from the perspective of a business man, perhaps the most important role that governments provide is not necessarily "an organized system of corrupt thugs to whom we pay protection money in the form of taxes" (to paragraph Mr. Murphy's arguments); instead, government most importantly provides business with an institution upon which businesses may pass on risk (if necessary). The businessman has no power. The ruler has power. So any risk will be passed in the other direction. > If Mr. Murphy believes that it is possible to run a business absent > government (i.e., in an anarchy), I suggest he quit the pot-smoking > grad school scene, get a REAL job (preferabbly in Northern > California) and see firsthand how the world REALLY works.. (perhaps > AFTER he spends several months in Russia, so he can compare and constrast..) We are using the world anarchy to mean a system with no ruler, and seek an anarchy with laws and without rulers. When you describe Russia and Gaza as anarchies, you are using the term to describe absence of laws, rather than absence of rulers. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG PxGGRnzDTGbh7xI7ELaaCmRs1ZMgJDCe9kFgY3li 4wKPjVSjMKLcl3NV7RhJj+MA+Ly1B4cwfbDzXoARl From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 05:47:46 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:47:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <02a101c061b5$1a5225e0$cc38e43f@happycat> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: > So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would > the number be good for? You can, there are at least two connectivity maps for the net out there. It would describe the complexity of the equivalent graph. As the network becomes more complex the routing issues become more complicated as the number of potential paths increases. So the closer the fractal dimention gets to 3 the more 'saturated' the network becomes with respect to routing issues for example. Admittedly it wouldn't be much use for the leaf node, but for those managing 'common' services (eg name resolution) it would at least give a model on which to base future expansion plans. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 05:57:54 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 07:57:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Freenet and anarcho-capitalist Message-ID: http://slashdot.org ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Dec 9 09:57:15 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:57:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Feds Win "Child Porn" Case Message-ID: <200012091757.eB9HvFe14966@artifact.psychedelic.net> A Texas couple who ran two very well known and popular age-verification services for Adult Web content have been convicted over the contents of two foreign Web sites which were illegal in the United States, one hosted in Russia, and the other hosted in Indonesia. Age-verification services are a popular method of financing web sites. Subscribers purchase a code for a small fee on a credit card, which proves that they are adults, and gives them access to thousands of web sites which use the particular vendor's codes to admit only adults to pornographic material. Part of the money for the subscriptions is used to make a micropayment to the visited sites Apparently, age-verification services will now be responsible for verifying all content which their codes are used to access, a humongous task. Apparently, providing an access code for content legally hosted in another country now makes one subject to US laws as if one had provided the content from within the US on ones own server. (Cypherpunks beware, while it is child porn that is being run up the flagpole to support this interpretation of the law, bomb-making instructions and seditious speech could easily be next on the list. I imagine Eterity Service operators could easily be characterized as "madams" for their content as well, particularly if they took small payments for accessing the system.) When this story first came out, the news reports mentioned the real issues involved. Now that a conviction has been obtained, one needs a microscope to even determine that the couple did not distribute any underage pornography themselves, that anyone could sign up to use their service, and that the vast majority of the material their codes could be used to access was perfectly legal. Their mistake, it seems, was in allowing revenues from people seeking to access a couple of popular overseas child porn sites, legal in the host country, to become a major source of income for their business. This destroyed their plausible deniability over the content hosted by their clients, and in spite of expensive legal opinions they had gotten which told them they had no legal exposure as mere age-verifiers, permitted the Feds to convince a jury that they functioned as "madams" for the "child-porn warehouse." Of course, because they dared to take the case to trial, and didn't plead, they will face an extremely harsh toilet-plungering by the judge at their sentencing. Here's one article on the case, from something that calls itself the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Note the use of terms like "The Child Pornography Business" and no mention of age-verification at all. But then, when you're "saving the little children," you are permitted to suspend ordinary journalistic ethics in a very Kirkegaardian way. ----- By Toni Heinzl Star-Telegram Staff Writer FORT WORTH -- Thomas Reedy gave himself the email name "Houdini," but even the legendary escape artist could not have wiggled out of the net of evidence of child pornography that authorities built against Reedy's Fort Worth Internet company. After deliberating 6= hours Friday, a federal jury convicted Reedy, 37, and his company, Landslide, on all 89 counts of an indictment accusing him of distribution of child pornography, sexual exploitation of minors and related charges. His wife, Janice Reedy, 32, was convicted on 87 of the 89 counts. The two counts on which she was acquitted had to do with 70 pornographic images on two of the couple's home computers, which were used mainly by Thomas Reedy, according to trial testimony. The Reedys were accused of giving Landslide subscribers access to Internet sites displaying child pornography for fees ranging from $14.95 to $29.95 per month per site. The sites were maintained by foreign Web masters. Landslide was the only gateway to the child-porn sites, prosecutors said. On its Web site a "click here for child porn" link directed customers to the sites. Landslide gave its subscribers user names and passwords after verifying their credit cards. The Reedys could face sentences of life in prison based on the number of counts, the money involved and the violent content of the Web sites they marketed and provided access to. U.S. District Judge Terry Means will sentence the Reedys. He did not set a sentencing date, but federal sentencings typically occur a few months after conviction. The Reedys played a high- stakes gamble taking the case to trial, despite the self- incriminating statements they gave investigators during a raid on their home last year and the mountain of evidence gathered. Thomas Reedy had admitted to a postal inspector that 30-40 percent of his business came from child pornography. Prosecutors had offered Reedy a plea bargain of 20 years in prison in exchange for a guilty plea and his wife five years in a package deal, but the couple refused to take it, prosecutors and defense attorneys said. Prosecutors and investigators who worked for more than a year on the Landslide case said they hope the verdict will put other Internet merchants of child pornography on notice. "I hope this verdict might scare other companies into stopping what they're doing," Assistant U.S. Attorney Terri Moore said. "Police and prosecutors get smarter about this stuff and we're going after them." Dallas Police Detective Steve Nelson, who signed on undercover as a subscriber to Landslide and bought access to more than 20 child- pornography sites, said he was relieved after the verdict. Nelson, a member of the Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force in Dallas, had unearthed evidence of child pornography on sites called "Child Rape," "Children Forced to Porn," "I am 14" and more. He and other investigators saved and documented images that included scenes of children being raped by adults. "This was the tip of the iceberg," he said. "Other companies should be put on notice that they will be dealt with if they exploit children." [Translation. We will be fucking with other age-verification services in the very near future.] Attorney Wes Ball, who defended Thomas Reedy and Landslide, said he will appeal. He reiterated to a reporter what he told the jury in his final argument: "We don't think the responsibility trickles down this far from the Web masters. The Web masters are absolutely responsible." The Reedys were charged in a conspiracy with two Indonesian Web masters, R.W. Kusuma and Hanny Ingganata, and Russian Web master Boris Greenberg, who have not been arrested. The Reedys netted more than $1 million with their porn business between 1997 and 1999 and paid about 60 percent to the foreign Web masters, federal prosecutors said. The child porn business provided a comfortable lifestyle for the couple. They lived in a $425,000 Lakeside home, and each drove a new Mercedes. That abruptly ended last year when federal agents raided their company and home. The business was shut down. The cars were seized along with $130,000 in bank accounts and a few thousand dollars in stocks. Since then, the bank foreclosed on their home. Moore reminded jurors in her closing argument that the Reedys had gotten rich off the misery of children. After Ball compared what they did with ticket takers at a movie theater who are not responsible for the movies, Moore gave jurors another analogy to think about. "They're not the ticket takers, they're like the madam in a whorehouse," she said. "You can't see the girls without the madam." [blah blah etc snip] --- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 9 06:58:37 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 09:58:37 -0500 Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001208174947.01b2d100@idiom.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 4218 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Sat Dec 9 07:10:25 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:10:25 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> References: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> Message-ID: At 3:00 AM -0800 on 12/9/00, Jonathan Wienke wrote: > Hasn't any seen the movie 6th Day? Who needs a password when you can borrow > the necessary biometric token from its owner if you have a hatchet or decent > knife? The simple answer is that most decent fingerprint readers require a living thumb, either through simple body-heat or, if I remember correctly, bioelectrical measurement. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 08:49:08 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:49:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > dropped packets, or time or something, and the network certainly *looks* > like a geodesic one, with multiple nodes plugged into lots of lines > routing packets in arbitrary directions instead of up and down a > hierarchy. That's not geodesic, that's a distributed systems with stochastic management algorithms. The epitomy of 'free market' thinking applied to communications engineering. It's certainly non-hierarchical but it isn't 'minimum distance'. If we apply 'geodesic' to the network between two participants then the goal would be to arrange their adjacency (ie minimize transaction costs). The network makes it appear that they are adjacent because of its ubiquity and acceptable latency. This goal was reached with the telegraph and the radio, 100 to 150 years ago. The next obvious goal would be to reduce the number of regulators. Then of course there is the aspect of the 'personal bank'. This would be where you and I exchange widgets via our PDA's that somehow get mapped into our personal financial/property space without going through some arbitration via 3rd party. The social and economic implications of this are staggering. This effectively means no taxes. This means that there are no shared or common resources. This implies that each person is either themselves autonomous, or acts as an agent who represents that independent autonomous collective (ie arcology or zaibatsu). It reduces society to a collection of 'families'. This implies a multi-planetary system in order to have resources of the requisite scale. Now consider the sorts of technology this will require to be ubiquitous? Neuromancer? Not hardly. Schismatrix is a more apt example. Gene engineered satellites that have doors made from lips and vagina's and the 'systems' of the satellite are the biological systems of the being which is the satellite. Killer butterflies. Shaper versus mechanist. Then consider the implications this has with respect to individual lifetimes and the changes that occur in society. It's clear that society changes slowly but a critical component in keeping it from stopping is the relatively short lives of people. They just aren't around long enough to have 'grand' plans and carry through on them. But, take away the economic issues of this ubiquitous melange of technology and reduce the major driving motivations to emotional ones, coupled with individual access to constructive technology that potentially surpasses the current output of the planet. Couple that will lifetimes approaching 200+ years and we begin to see a side that doesn't bode well at all. And the currently stabalizing force, the slowness of evolution, is going to be removed shortly. There will in effect be no apparent boundary or limit on the attainable goals of individuals. This implies a high level of conflict, or else some sort of meta-society. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 08:53:37 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:53:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: What is a state? (was Re: Chaos Theory) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001209072841.020512c0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, James A. Donald wrote: > A state is a monopoly of legitimate force. That's redundent. > What makes a state a state is that the policeman can whack me, and I cannot > whack the policeman. No, it's that the other people in the society won't accept your whacking the nice oinkdroid [1]. Why? Because they figure if you'll whack the oinkdroid what will stop you from whacking them? Nothing. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] There are differences of opinion on the degree of this boundary. In some states it is as James describes, you don't strike the officer period. On others, such as the US, it is possible to strike the officer justifiable if they are themselves acting illegally and putting your life in danger. Being a police officer is not absolute defence against self-defence. From declan at well.com Sat Dec 9 08:27:25 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 11:27:25 -0500 Subject: My short writeup of the NymIP effort Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001209112706.0164b290@mail.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40582,00.html Devising Invisible Ink by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. Dec. 9, 2000 PST WASHINGTON -- An ambitious effort to protect online anonymity will kick off this weekend. A working group of about a dozen technologists, called NymIP, is gathering before the Internet Engineering Task Force's meeting to take the very first steps toward devising a standard that will foster untraceable communications and Web browsing for Internet users. Currently, commercial products such as Anonymizer.com and Zero Knowledge's Freedom client permit anonymous or pseudonymous Net-surfing. The NymIP effort aims to create standard protocols that would be more widely adopted and not tied to one company's product or service. Zero Knowledge, a Montreal firm, began the project last month, but the working group is now headed by Harvard University's Scott Bradner, an IETF veteran. Quips Zero Knowledge engineer John Bashinski: "I've been heard enough as it is, and am trying to moderate my natural big-mouthed tendencies and let others speak for a while." One probable topic of discussion: The tradeoffs between bandwidth and security. Absolute security requires scads of cover traffic to mask the communications that a user wants to conceal, but it also eats up bandwidth. "Scalability isn't too bad if you're looking at scaling the number of users," writes Bashinski in a post to the NymIP mailing list. "Where scaling seems to bite you is with the size of the anonymity group, defined as the set of users that, given the information the recipient or an eavesdropper has, could have sent a given message. In high-security systems, more or less those with meaningful resistance to traffic analysis, scaling in the anonymity group size seems to be superlinear, maybe even N^2." Translation: That's enough to clog a lot of T-3 lines. [...] http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,40583,00.html New Film 'Dungeons' Drags On by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 7:00 p.m. Dec. 8, 2000 PST Too many films based on a tale with origins far from Hollywood suffer from that irksome flaw of not being true to the original, leaving fans to gnash their teeth and moan like an orc with gastritis. Not so Dungeons & Dragons, which is afflicted with the related but equally vexing ailment of hewing too closely to the awesomely popular role-playing game that gave it life. To wit: The 100-minute flick from New Line Cinema is less a story of love and adventure than a convenient vehicle for some occasionally-phenomenal light shows in dungeons and hordes of swooping dragons flapping around the Empire of Izmer looking like nothing so much as oversized pterodactyls equipped with +5 fireballs and terribly bad attitudes. But successful real-life D&D games require far more -- well-drawn heroes and convincing antagonists are not at all optional. And in devising this wide screen adaptation that opened Friday, director-grand-poobah Courtney Solomon has failed repeated saving throws against the chaotic-evil forces of blandness and blah. By itself, the story shows promise. A vaguely medieval society is sharply divided between the Mages -- an elite and somewhat stuffy breed of magic users who skulk around their towering stone fortress -- and everyone else. Izmer's teen empress (an unremarkable Thora Birch) wants everyone to be "equal," a vague but unobjectionable idea, while the evil Mage Profion (Jeremy Irons) has successfully convinced the legislature otherwise. A power struggle ensues that makes the Florida election look like an endearing display of bonhomie, and the winner is the side that can find the fabled Rod of Savrille and thus command the mighty red dragons. Enter two thieves, Ridley (Justin Whalin) and Snails (Marlon Wayans), who join a cute young female mage, a grumpy dwarf, and an aloof elf -- your classic D&D traveling companions -- to trounce the bad guy, help the good one, and perhaps encounter a love interest or two along the way. It's a good start, but not much more. The director, Solomon, can't seem to decide whether to take the film seriously or allow it to spoof itself -- and neither can the actors. The performance by Academy Award-winning Irons is remarkable only in how lackluster it is, and Wayans' inner-city slang is as out of place as he would be in any believable Thieves' Guild. Note to Solomon: Thieves should be lithe and sneaky, not bumbling trolls. (At least -- spoiler alert -- this Jar Jar Binks stand-in is slaughtered halfway through the movie.) [...] From declan at well.com Sat Dec 9 08:35:34 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:35:34 -0500 Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing In-Reply-To: ; from dorr@asc.upenn.edu on Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:00:25AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001209113533.B10803@cluebot.com> On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 01:00:25AM -0500, Daniel Orr wrote: > Ronald Plesser, quoted at the end of the article, is an attorney for the > Individual Reference Services group. You may remember the group as among the > most vocal defenders of Lexis-Nexis when LN was going to sell social > security numbers via it PTRAK service. Lexis is one of their members. Ron is far more than that: He's also out of house counsel for DMA. > Westin, the academic who ran the survey, is less than loved among many > privacy advocates. I don't know the guy. He's probably on this listserv > somewhere. I do; I was even at his 70th (I think) birthday party. I think the odds that he's on this list are phenomenally low. Privacy leftists (what you really mean when you're saying privacy advocates) don't like him because they think that after some seminal work he did, he sold out and now supports the idea that there are some valid reasons for corporate data exchange, etc. Heresy! > Also, note the total absence of response from any actual privacy group such > as EPIC or Junkbusters, something a balanced piece wouldn't omit. You mean "privacy leftists," don't you? -Declan From declan at well.com Sat Dec 9 08:38:20 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:38:20 -0500 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: ; from bear@sonic.net on Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 12:16:13AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20001209113820.C10803@cluebot.com> I believe this is correct. It's a state or local thing in the U.S. I recall Philadelphia passed an emergency anti-mask ordinance as a way to thwart mask-wearing protesters during the GOP convention: http://www.mccullagh.org/theme/gop-convention-protests.html -Declan On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 12:16:13AM -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the US, > to appear in public wearing a mask. > > Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. > > Dunno about other countries and other states. > > Bear > > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Mark Allyn wrote: > > > > >Hi: > > > >I did not know about laws forbidding wearing masks. I see masks everywhere > >during Haloween. Is this illegal? > > > >Mark > > > > > From precious20x0 at wnonline.net Sat Dec 9 09:40:03 2000 From: precious20x0 at wnonline.net (Kessler Thompkins) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:40:03 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000801c06207$23439a60$a28afea9@w9x5o7> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available URL: From declan at well.com Sat Dec 9 08:46:30 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 11:46:30 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com>; from mis@itiaccess.com on Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:00:47AM -0800 References: <000701c061cf$4974f4a0$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> Message-ID: <20001209114630.D10803@cluebot.com> On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:00:47AM -0800, Jonathan Wienke wrote: > Hasn't any seen the movie 6th Day? Who needs a password when you can borrow > the necessary biometric token from its owner if you have a hatchet or decent > knife? I taped a CSPAN show about two years ago before a bunch of high school kids who were in DC for the week. The subject of fingerprint access to bank ATMs came up and I mentioned the lop-off-one-digit scenario. They were appropriately horrified, and I don't think the moderator enjoyed it much either... -Declan From cab8 at censored.org Sat Dec 9 13:02:51 2000 From: cab8 at censored.org (Carol A Braddock) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 13:02:51 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks References: Message-ID: <009c01c06223$65685e50$cc38e43f@happycat> Could you explain 'saturated'? I am not sure this isn't related to a more simple surface - to - volume type number, but I only have three or so hands to wave at the difference. How about the average number of links to get to a destination vs the total network size? Plot that the way you would Minkowski sausage volume vs diameter to get fractal dimension. I saw an article pointing out that the average number of links was not growing as fast as the network size would predict, and blaming the expert and portal type sites for the difference. That is a cypherpunkish type observation, it is a number indicating intelligient intervention in the organization of the network. Carol Anne Cyperpunk's cat: =^.^= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" To: Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 5:47 AM Subject: Re: Fractal geodesic networks > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: > > > So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would > > the number be good for? > > You can, there are at least two connectivity maps for the net out there. > > It would describe the complexity of the equivalent graph. As the network > becomes more complex the routing issues become more complicated as the > number of potential paths increases. So the closer the fractal dimention > gets to 3 the more 'saturated' the network becomes with respect to > routing issues for example. > > Admittedly it wouldn't be much use for the leaf node, but for those > managing 'common' services (eg name resolution) it would at least give a > model on which to base future expansion plans. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From tcmay at got.net Sat Dec 9 14:22:36 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 14:22:36 -0800 Subject: Systems Message-ID: The debate about "fractal dimensions" and "geodesic networks" and what characterizes them is part of a much larger analysis of systems in general. Minsky once said that most of AI is about people applying their own names to previously studied concepts and phenomena. This applies to _systems_. Agents, actors, self-organizing systems, bionomics, geodesic networks, agoric systems, markets, connectivity, hierarchies (and lack thererof), swarms, multi-agent systems, distributed systems, disintermediation, and economics in general are all part of this Big Picture. Several books have been written about this stuff, including Kevin Kelley's "Out of Control" and the various burblings of Huber, Gilder, the Santa Fe Institute, and so on. (Speaking of the Santa Fe Institute, I could add to the above list various other terms like: computational ecologies, swarms, emergent behavior, artificial life, etc.) In my view, such terms are only shorthand labels meant to trigger associations in the mind of the listener. Thus, when I see Hettinga prattling on about "geodesic fractionally-cleared bearer markets," it just means "oh, the stuff Cypherpunks advocate." That is, free markets, markets free of top-down centralized control. For example, the trade practices of Pacific Islanders, the spice and silk caravans of the Silk Road (ergo "Digital Silk Road," of Tribble, Hardy, and others), the agora of Athens, the bazaars of Baghdad and Damascus (ergo Eric Raymond's "cathedral and the bazaar" metaphor), and on and on. Or physicists could speak of spin glasses. And they could natter on about correlation lengths, long-range order, phase transitions, etc. (People would find it quite confusing if every time I referred to "fractionally-settled spin glasses" as a metaphor for free markets. Thank your lucky stars. Though I do occasionally draw on phase transitions as a metaphor.) Ditto for throwing in junk about "fractals." ("Everything is fractal! Like, wow, like, farm out!") What these _are_ all related to is to systems made up of bits and pieces and interactions which share many similarities. But also some important differences, so care must be taken not to extrapolate from one domain to another. The tendency of the mathematician is to abstract out all of the domain-specific junk and to invent a terminology which isolates only the important features. So instead of talking about students in a classroom passing notes, or talking about positions of atoms in a crystal, we end up with language like: "A ring is defined to be a .... over a set of elements in a subfield...satisfying associativity...but not pairwise-commutable." This cuts out the "intuition" about how students behave, how crystals actually are composed, how hands of poker appear in real life, etc. etc. This abstraction is the beauty of mathematics. Of course, this beauty does not come without a downside. Anyone who has read the hyper-technical, hyper-pure books of "Bourbaki" (an anonymous collection of mostly-French mathematicians who issued a series of math books in the 50s to the 70s), or anyone who picks up nearly any advanced math book, knows that the symbols are mostly meaningless without some intuition or deep immersion in domains using the notation. While not all mathematicians have a _spatial_ imagination, they still "visualize" their domains. Math is a lot more than just formal manipulation of meaningless symbols. Thus it is in our domain, that of "systems made of many parts." Anyway, I have my own views, and calculations, of things like dimensionality and connectivity, and how they are related. And of why many such systems are "self-organizing." (For example, self-interest. Given a set of N farmers and/or fishermen, no one needs to sit down and figure out all of the prices and terms for a market to develop. Self-interest, local actions, are enough for markets to develop, for ecologies of economic actors, for "geodesic networks" (barf) to form. Even for "bearer-instrument settlement" (shells, beads, dollars, cargo). Likewise, there are sociological, economics, and psychological views of these systems. All kinds of views, all kinds of terms, all kinds of similarities. When I was in college, more than 25 years ago, one of my friends was a real fan of Ludwig von Bertanllanfy (sp?) and his "general systems theory." To my friend Alex _everything_ was an example of general systems theory. Everything. Perhaps he moved on later to viewing everything as an example of chaos, or fractals, or bionomics, or geodesic networks. And to others, everything was a branch of ecology (recall that in Heinlein's "Farmer in the Sky," written in the 1950s (!), ecology was the big thing to study. Ditto for "everything is a branch of physics," "everything is a branch of economics," etc. The worm turns. I advise folks not to concentrate on either Gilder's "telecosm" (or whatever) or Hettinga's "fractional geodesic networks" (or whatever) or even my own "crypto anarchy" (or whatever). The interesting stuff is not in the terminology. By the way, the more interesting thing about these systems is NOT that they are locally-connected, nearest neighbor, as a geodesic dome is connected, but that they are _multiply-connected, high-dimensionality_ systems. (Hint: All 270 million Americans live in an N-cube of just 5 units on each side...but with a bunch of dimensions. Geodesics are not the interesting thing. Communication, bandwidth, connectivity, auction systems, etc., are far more important. ) --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From gbroiles at netbox.com Sat Dec 9 14:34:17 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 14:34:17 -0800 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: ; from nobody@remailer.privacy.at on Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 10:06:03PM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20001209143417.B18667@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 10:06:03PM +0100, Anonymous wrote: > > I was unable to locate any other states with statutes addressing "mask > wearing" in public (without intent to commit burglary). No doubt the rest > of the offending rules are ordinances instead. > Also see 18 USC 242 and 42 USC 1985 for criminal and civil penalties, respectively, for "two or more persons" who "go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege" secured by the US constitution or the laws of the United States. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 14:55:23 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 16:55:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Or physicists could speak of spin glasses. And they could natter on > about correlation lengths, long-range order, phase transitions, etc. > > (People would find it quite confusing if every time I referred to > "fractionally-settled spin glasses" as a metaphor for free markets. > Thank your lucky stars. Though I do occasionally draw on phase > transitions as a metaphor.) Actually they're not directly comparable. An individual elements final state in a spin glass is dependent upon the state of all its neighbors. It is further predicated that some of the potential states aren't allowed, thus applying 'stress' to the spin glass array. The goal is to find a minimum energy system, that may not be maximal but is 'good enough'. It's quite similar to 'annealling' algorithms in result. A free market exchange on the other hand predicates that *only* the two participants are involved and that each exchange is not predecated upon the state of previous or contemporanious exchanges. The same can't be said for spin glasses. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 9 15:06:39 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 17:06:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <009c01c06223$65685e50$cc38e43f@happycat> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: > Could you explain 'saturated'? Sure, I meant it as the actual level of capacity/usage approached the maximal capacity/usage. The 'channel' is saturated, it reaches a point where it can't grow. This is a small grain observation about the capacity/cost ratio for individual links. Another way the 'channel' might get saturated is with respect to 'common' services such as DNS. As the consumer layer grows the load increases and can become problematic (ie DNS time outs become very common). So, one could compare the percentage of requests at each layer of the network and then compare their time series. > I am not sure this isn't related to a more simple surface - to - volume type > number, but I only have three or so hands to wave at the difference. In a way that's what a fractal dimension is. In the case of say a Koch snowflake we're talking of a function part way between a line and a plane. In the context of the Internet we're talking about the complexity moving from 2d to 3d, we've already moved from 1d (direct connect ala BBS's) to 2d. With the growth of space based Internet assets you'll see this number approach 3. > How about the average number of links to get to a destination vs the total > network size? Plot that the way you would Minkowski sausage volume vs > diameter to get fractal dimension. I saw an article pointing out that the > average number of links was not growing as fast as the network size would > predict, and blaming the expert and portal type sites for the difference. > That is a cypherpunkish type observation, it is a number indicating > intelligient intervention in the organization of the network. The network can't exist without 'intelligent intervention", at least I've never heard of a bridge (for example) self-assembling. It could happen but I suspect the odds are pretty slim. With respect to the growth of links, it doesn't surprise me that it's saturating faster than expected. After all 80% of the planets population hasn't ever made a telephone call (or that's the urban legend anyway). I saw an article somewhere the other day (no clue where) stating that the youngest kids (say 8 to 12) are not using the net as much as predicted either. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Sat Dec 9 15:07:18 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:07:18 -0500 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Message-ID: Hot dayum, we got the ATF on that one!!! -p "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Greg Broiles @cyberpass.net on 12/09/2000 05:34:17 PM Please respond to Greg Broiles Sent by: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net From betterlife at juno.com Sat Dec 9 18:44:49 2000 From: betterlife at juno.com (betterlife at juno.com) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 18:44:49 Subject: Save on your TAXES! Message-ID: <384.684288.259306@juno.com> This 2 minute message could change your LIFE ************************************************************ THIS ENTERPRISE IS AWESOMELY FEATURED IN OCTOBER 2000 MILLIONAIRE, FALL ISSUE 2000 TYCOON, AND AUGUST 2000 ENTREPRENEUR Magazine. Do you have a burning desire to change the quality of your existing life? Would you like to live the life that others only dream about? The fact is we have many people in our enterprise that earn over 50k per month from the privacy of their own home and are retiring in 2-3 years. Wealthy and having total freedom both personal and financial. READ ON! READ ON! READ ON! READ ON! READ ON! READ ON! How would you like to:(LEGALLY & LAWFULLY) 1. KEEP MOST OF YOUR TAX DOLLARS!!!!! 2. Drastically reduce personal, business and capitol gains taxes? 3. Protect all assets from any form of seizure, liens, or judgments? 4. Create a six figure income every 4 months? 5. 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Upon accepting you as a member on my team, I will provide you with complete Professional Training as well as FRESH inquiring LEADS to put you immediately on the road to success. If you are skeptical that's OK but don't let that stop you from getting all the information you need. DROP THE MOUSE AND CALL 415-273-5279 DROP THE MOUSE AND CALL *********************** 415-273-5279 ******************* From nobody at remailer.privacy.at Sat Dec 9 13:06:03 2000 From: nobody at remailer.privacy.at (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 22:06:03 +0100 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Message-ID: Ond 12/09/2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the > US, to appear in public wearing a mask. > Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. > Dunno about other countries and other states. In "Church of the American Knights of Ku Klux Klan v. City of Erie," a federal district judge in the western district of PA held: 1. a provision prohibiting a person from wearing a mask in public with intent to deprive others of equal protection of laws or to prevent or hinder constituted authorities from providing equal protection of laws to others did not violate First Amendment; 2. a provision prohibiting wearing of a mask in public with intent of intimidating others because of their exercise of their rights or to cause others to fear for their own safety did not violate First Amendment; but 3. a provision prohibiting wearing of mask in public "with intent to intimidate" violated First Amendment because it was overbroad. The ordinance was: 733.02 CONCEALING IDENTITY IN PUBLIC PROHIBITED Wearing hoods which conceal the identity by hiding the face or masks in a public place is hereby prohibited. No person shall, while wearing any hood which conceals the identity by hiding the face, mask or device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear in any public place within the City. A "public place" was defined as: "all walks, alleys, streets, boulevards, avenues, lanes, roads, highways or other ways or thoroughfares dedicated to public use or owned or maintained by public authority; and all grounds and buildings owned, leased or operated for the use of organizations enjoying all tax-exempt privileges as charitable use." Section 733.01. There were, of course, exceptions to the ordinance: Section 733.02. Certain persons are explicitly exempted from this general prohibition, including: (a) persons under sixteen years of age; (b) persons wearing a traditional holiday costume in season; (c) persons using masks in theatrical productions; (d) persons lawfully engaged in trades or employment or in a sporting activity where a mask or facial covering is worn for physical safety; (e) persons wearing a gas mask in drills, exercises or emergencies; (f) persons wearing a mask for purposes of protection against cold weather; (g) persons wearing a mask because of any illness, allergy or on the advice of a physician. Section 733.04. And the additional requirements were: (a) With the intent to deprive any person or class of persons of the equal protection of the laws or of equal privileges and immunities under the laws, or for the purpose of preventing or hindering the constituted authorities of the United States or of this State or any subdivision thereof from giving or securing to all persons within this State the equal protection of the laws; or (b) With the intent, by force or threat of force, to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person because of his exercise of any right secured by Federal, State or local laws, or to intimidate such person or any other person or any class of person from exercising any right secured by Federal, State or local law; or (c) With the intent to intimidate, threaten, abuse or harass any other person; or (d) With the intent to cause another person to fear for his or her personal safety, or, where it is probable that reasonable persons will be put in fear for their personal safety by the defendant's actions, with reckless disregard for such probability; or (e) While engaged in conduct prohibited by civil or criminal law, with the intent of avoiding identification. Section 733.05. In Hernandez v. Superintendent, Fredericksburg-Rappahannock Joint Security Ctr., the court found in part that "a detachable mask worn by KKK members was not constitutionally protected symbolic speech." The theory was that said detachable mask was not "an essential part of traditional Klan regalia," but an optional accessory. In American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan v. County of Bedford, Pennsylvania, the judge struck down as unconstitutional an anti-mask ordinace which he called a "transparent attempt to restrict public rallies of KKK whose organization members are notorious for the hoods that are part of their regalia". Numerous states have "mask enhancements." Florida, for example: 775.0845. Wearing mask while committing offense; reclassification The felony or misdemeanor degree of any criminal offense, other than a violation of ss. 876.12-876.15, shall be reclassified to the next higher degree as provided in this section if, while committing the offense, the offender was wearing a hood, mask, or other device that concealed his or her identity. (1)(a) In the case of a misdemeanor of the second degree, the offense is reclassified to a misdemeanor of the first degree... Oklahoma has a state statute prohibiting mask wearing (note the exceptions): ' 1301. Masks and hoods--Unlawful to wear--Exceptions It shall be unlawful for any person in this state to wear a mask, hood or covering, which conceals the identity of the wearer; provided, this act shall not apply to the pranks of children on Halloween, to those going to, or from, or participating in masquerade parties, to those participating in any public parade or exhibition of an educational, religious or historical character, to those participating in any meeting of any organization within any building or enclosure wholly within and under the control of said organization, and to those participating in the parades or exhibitions of minstrel troupes, circuses or other amusements or dramatic shows. Any person, or persons, violating the provisions of this section of this act, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than Fifty Dollars ($50.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not exceeding one (1) year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. as does Georgia: 16-11-38 Wearing mask, hood, or device which conceals identity of wearer. (a) A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he wears a mask, hood, or device by which any portion of the face is so hidden, concealed, or covered as to conceal the identity of the wearer and is upon any public way or public property or upon the private property of another without the written permission of the owner or occupier of the property to do so. (b) This Code section shall not apply to: (1) A person wearing a traditional holiday costume on the occasion of the holiday; (2) A person lawfully engaged in trade and employment or in a sporting activity where a mask is worn for the purpose of ensuring the physical safety of the wearer, or because of the nature of the occupation, trade, or profession, or sporting activity; (3) A person using a mask in a theatrical production including use in Mardi gras celebrations and masquerade balls; or (4) A person wearing a gas mask prescribed in emergency management drills and exercises or emergencies. [Don't you think a mask is part of the "nature of the occupation, trade, or profession" of a bank robber, Georgia?] as does Puerto Rico: ' 4433. Wearing disguise It shall be punishable by imprisonment not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars, or both, in the discretion of the court, for any person who wears a mask, false whiskers or any other disguise, whether complete or partial, or alters in any way, temporarily or permanently his physical appearance for the purpose of: (a) Evading discovery, recognition, or identification in the commission of any offense. (b) Concealing, fleeting or escaping when prosecuted, arrested for or convicted of any offense. Tennessee has a statute similar to the Erie ordinance as mentioned above. I was unable to locate any other states with statutes addressing "mask wearing" in public (without intent to commit burglary). No doubt the rest of the offending rules are ordinances instead. Ugh. From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 03:01:08 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 03:01:08 -0800 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20001206080824.008046e0@pop.sprynet.com> <00120615413600.05981@rkeni.lin5l4ve.org> Message-ID: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Wednesday 06 December 2000 11:11, David Honig wrote: >> At 11:44 PM 12/5/00 -0500, mmotyka at lsil.com wrote: >> >( Though I would expect some coarse grit emery run down the >> >barrel and some random prick punch action on the bolt might do wonders >> >for ballistic analysis ). >> >> Extra barrels are not so expensive or hard to obtain that the pro can't >> afford to treat them as disposable. > >Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth >marks and other metal to metal contact. Most pistol barrels are removable without tools. Besides, two or three hundred rounds down the barrel should be enough to change it's forensics. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 03:08:43 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 03:08:43 -0800 Subject: Data Logs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Russ K wrote: > >> Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth >> marks and other metal to metal contact. > >So the moral of the story is... > >If you want to destroy the potential barrel you'll need to: > >- Have replacement barrels purchased in a non-traceable manner. Why? There are many reasons to have spare barrels. Think "Squib load". >- Have some mechanism to brush or scratch the inside of the barrel, >- Apply a corrosive and allow it to thin the barrel significantly. >- Then twist barrel and heat until red hot. >- Then handle with non-metallic tools only until discarded. Nonsense. The forensic tests on bullets/firearms are based on percentage matches. You simply need to change *slightly* the "finger print" of the barrel and firing pin. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 03:26:31 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 03:26:31 -0800 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >> >From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" >> > >> >THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL > >A republic is a form of democracy, a representative one. No, it isn't. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From nospam at imail.ru Sat Dec 9 16:35:38 2000 From: nospam at imail.ru (NOSPAM) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 03:35:38 +0300 Subject: =?koi8-r?B?0NLJx8zB28XOycUgzsEg+s7B1M/LLlJ1IM/UIPfB08nMydE=?= Message-ID: <001e01c06241$1eaca0c0$56cabec2@default> ЗдравÑтвуйте! "ИнтереÑный Ñайт! Можно получить ответ на любой вопроÑ" Ваш друг ВаÑилий предположил, что Вам будет интереÑно воÑпользоватьÑÑ Ð±ÐµÑплатными уÑлугами Ñайта http://www.znatok.ru/main.asp Знаток.Ru - Ñто меÑто, где пользователи могут оперативно получить ответы на множеÑтво вопроÑов на различные темы. Ð”Ð»Ñ Ñ‚ÐµÑ…, кто может поделитьÑÑ Ñвоими знаниÑми Ñ Ð´Ñ€ÑƒÐ³Ð¸Ð¼Ð¸, Znatok.Ru предоÑтавлÑет отличную возможноÑÑ‚ÑŒ помочь Ñоветом другим людÑм. 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From nobody at remailer.ch Sat Dec 9 20:48:17 2000 From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous) Date: 10 Dec 2000 04:48:17 -0000 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <221107e1d2b46712d46090cf2e197d3e@remailer.ch> Anonymous wrote: > Oklahoma has a state statute prohibiting mask wearing (note the > exceptions): > > � 1301. Masks and hoods--Unlawful to wear--Exceptions > > It shall be unlawful for any person in this state to wear a mask, hood > or covering, which conceals the identity of the wearer; provided, this > act shall not apply to the pranks of children on Halloween, to those > going to, or from, or participating in masquerade parties, to those > participating in any public parade or exhibition of an educational, > religious or historical character, to those participating in any meeting > of any organization within any building or enclosure wholly within and > under the control of said organization, and to those participating in the > parades or exhibitions of minstrel troupes, circuses or other amusements > or dramatic shows. Any person, or persons, violating the provisions of > this section of this act, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and > upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than > Fifty Dollars ($50.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or > by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not exceeding one (1) > year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Fascinating. Do they have motorcycles in Oklahoma? From bela400 at mail.com Sun Dec 10 09:57:57 2000 From: bela400 at mail.com (bela nagy) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 09:57:57 -0800 Subject: web graphic design Message-ID: <20001210150025.BFIW1373.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@excite.com> Affordable Web and Graphic Design. If you're looking for a simple, affordable means of getting your business materials designed or published on the Internet, we have the answer. We operate with very minimum overhead to ensure that our final products are very affordable. We are a team of young talented graphics professionals located in Toronto, Canada. We are operating a legitimate business and we are interested in establishing a long-term mutually beneficial relationship. For a portfolio please reply this email. Sincerely, bela nagy 416.722.6277 This should be a one time mailing operation. I am very sorry if my email made you angry. Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to belanagy at yahoo.con with the word "remove" in the subject line. From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 10:19:58 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:19:58 -0800 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: At 11:58 AM -0500 12/10/00, Robert Guerra wrote: >Declan: > >I completely agree with you that internet voting isn't quite ready >fom prime-time just yet. But given the current snafu I highly >suspect that there will be a lot of interest in the field. > >Certainly, I hope one of the few things the new congress will be >able to do is set-up a commission to propose new voting standards. >Hopefully they will pick a standard that doesn't give rise to >problems 30-40 years in the future... > >personally, if I had a say I'd say they should adopt the same system >Canada uses. They use a 100 year old system, had few if any >recounts, and managed to count all thier manual ballots in less than >72 hours. It wasn't a close election, was it? Didn't think so. In the U.S., when the election isn't close, the ballots are counted, and recounted, by midnight of the day of the election...maybe by mid-morning the next day. It's the _closeness_ that magnifies potential hinge points into court cases, redefinitions, and recriminations. As for "Hey, kids, let's all put on an electronic vote!," it's been discussed many times here. And elsewhere. RISKS had a major discussion of the...risks. As someone said in recentl weeks, if we really want to see elections stolen efficiently, make them electronic. No paper trail, no evidence, no chads, just pure gleaming bits. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From gateway at cryptorights.org Sun Dec 10 07:23:17 2000 From: gateway at cryptorights.org (Robert Guerra) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 10:23:17 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <120171.976443797@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. Looks like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! regards robert From rah at shipwright.com Sun Dec 10 08:14:33 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:14:33 -0500 Subject: Secretions Message-ID: Speaking of chadors... Thanks, as ever, to Ryan for cypherpunks.venona.com. Cheers, RAH ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] secretions ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * To: cypherpunks at toad.com * Subject: secretions * From: Judith Milhon * Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 03:01:26 -0700 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The alternative to mutual trust, which is indeed a risky gamble, is the security of the police state." -- Alan Watts This text may be published in MONDO2000 as my regular column, Irresponsible Journalism. Eric Hughes suggested the coda with the toad address, adding that it would be amusing to have it almost completely blotted by magic marker, as if inadequately censored. I don't want to be the venom in this toad. the idea is to draw in other useful minds. we can assume the WRONG PEOPLE already know the address. lady ada won't apologize for the gonzo wrapping for the ideas; she is concerned only that they be correct and clearly stated. clarifications, expansions, corrections are welcome. also abuse and threats, for that matter... any feedback, please feed me... THE CYPHERPUNK MOVEMENT by St. Jude I don't face-to-face all that much. And I don't like clubs. I was in the Black Hole for a reason: The Screamin' Memes were in town for one night only -- Thursday, of course. Thursday's the night, now that the weekend has annexed Fri. and Mon. I was lurking in the back, hoping not to see anybody, when the Jones brothers staked me out. Damn. They are deep into the street drugs. Keeping up with the Joneses is nigh impossible; their most trivial chitchat is an exercise in decryption. Eddy -- or maybe he was being Ellis that night -- was implying something about somebody when my right foot detonated down to its steel toe. I looked up -- way up -- to a face that wasn't there at all. Just a dome of black cloth, with goggles. Three-eyed goggles. Ah: a Chador. I'd heard of that. I screamed: "You stomped my foot FLAT!" "Sorry." "Are you okay?" "Oh maaaang." Many overlapping voices, all of them synthesized, blurted from above. Out of two tiny speakers hanging like earrings off a basketweave headband like a cop's belt. The head bowed, bringing it almost within biting range. "Gah. Ow. Ooo." Pretending to be demented with pain, I lurched deep into the Chador. But I was cool: I was rootling in there for clues. Ha! Male pheromones. Hardish male torso. I was jostling this lumpy equipment hanging off him, trying to get a good feel of it without alerting him. Nuh uh: _I_ meant electronics... what did _you_ think? Okay: I had some data to work with. Male with gadgets. Quelle surprise. "What the hell have you got on your feet? HORSESHOES?" A voice like rushing water: "Kothurni." The Chador shifted a little... and under his full black skirts I saw them: big weighted club-foot boots with concealed lifts, to disguise the wearer's height. Wicked. The pain and the espionage cleared my head. I was ready to deal. "So you're protecting your meat identity, right?" The Chador seemed to teeter a little. It goggled down at me as if I were a smear on a slide. Its third-eye goggle was a lens. Check. Out of the ambient murk loomed another Chador. Exactly the same height. Right. "How come you guys are in full drag?" "We're here for a... uh... party." The voice from the other Chador was a flanged saxophone, but I could swear it had a Texas accent. "Rubbish. You're having a cell meeting, right? " The near Chador, the one I had groped, seemed to teeter again. What sounded like a tape player on fast-forward came faintly from its interior. An earphone? The saxophone honked: "If I said I even understood what you meant, what kind of a chump would that make me?" "I could hazard a guess. I think you're cryptoanarchists -- what I'd call cypherpunks!" My Chador cracked up. I could tell. The farther one seemed to stiffen; I think it was giving me a hate stare. Hard to manage behind the whole 9 yards o' cloth. "Is that clever or what? I'm onto you like psilocybe on cowshit, dudes. You want to take over the world. Haha hahaha haaaaa." Both of them rocked back a little. I went in after them. "You want to talk encryption schemes? Let's talk cryptic. Tales from the cryp'ed. But make it fast: The Memes are comin' on." Oh, I was bluffing. I don't know much about cryptography. I was just 'tuding them from tech envy. Damn: Chadors. And me without the first widget. From the far guy came a cello, very suave: "The world has already been taken over. You may have noticed this. We're just trying to get some of it back." And the accent was -- Dutch? Bob's yr uncle. Gotcha. I hadn't been certain. Maybe chadors were now trendy club gear -- what do I know? "Hey -- that cello's another guy? How many you PACKIN' in there?" Out of my Chador a sawtooth rasped: "Variable. People are ringing in and out." "You're on line?" "This is a bridge. International." Sawtooth again. The cello resumed, an annoyed cello: "We don't believe in takeovers. In fact, we are working to make things UNTAKEOVERABLE." A theremin quivered, "And to make the world safe for anarchy. _We want the air-waves, baby_." It snickered across many frequencies. The Tejana saxophone chuckled, (and an eerie treat that was, too): "Problem is, how to guarantee privacy for pseudonyms. So you can have a pseudonymous economy." A toad croaked: "So, full-RSA encrypted EVERYTHING. No back doors. Secure digital money. Swiss bank accounts for the millions." The theremin: "A global monetary system that makes governments obsolete. Down come the governments. Goodbye the feds." It sang, whoopingly: "BYE BYE, LAWWww." Horrible broad-band snickering. The toad croaked: "Er... yes. Real freedom of speech, too. Libertech!" The Dutch cello was all business: "Okay, what does it take? You need real-time protocols to prove you own your pseudonym. And your pseudonyms have online reputations, via people you've done biz with -- like a distributed credit rating system. With maybe designated angels -- Fair Witnesses." I was charmed. "And you wear the chador when you face-to-face somebody who knows your handle!" The theremin wheeped: "Actually, unmasking your real identity could be the ultimate collateral -- your killable, _torturable_ body. Even without kids, you've got a hostage to fortune -- your own meat." I was reeling. "Oh yas yas. As Dylan said: 'They asked me for some collateral/ and I pulled down my pants'." Orchestral chuckles rained down on me. Was I an international hit? But at that exact moment The Memes hit the stage. The crowd did a 9.1 Richter lurch and the other Chador pitched onto my LEFT toe, maybe denting the steel. "AAIEEeeee. That's great COVERT GEAR you got there, guys. You couldn't sneak up on Helen Keller in a HAILSTORM." I was trying to spin down. "And dudes -- this is not the neighborhood for flashing the hardware. Getting rolled by winos is pretty LOW TECH." A spike-knuckled glove slithered out of the farther guy, clutching what looked, in the near-dark, like an electric razor. "_Gonna menace 'em with a clean shave_?" The sax: "Stunner. Bottom of the line. But." A hot line of pure energy cracked across its little trodes. Of course. Rushing water: "See ya." And they did a fade into the smoke. The Screamin' Memes were worthless. To hell with clubs. To hell with lots o' things, maybe. I am now sensing my roots, mahn; dey who are my bredren. Nerds. Nerds as mainstreamed by the grainy but still fetching Robt Redford in Sneakers... Nerds who will have their revenge at last, by making the online realer than our current regrettable reality... No, I'm not quite delusional. I've heard the cypherpunks are already distributing their encrypted email software, which is quick and slick. I might even join the revolution, which is, heh, already in progress. Yeah. Why not? Give me libertech or give me... _DES_? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- St. Jude, aka Lady Ada Lovelace, wrote "The Spook in the Machine" for MONDO #1, describing the enforcement of DES, the Data Encryption Scam with the handy backdoor. She can be reached online as stjude at well.sf.ca.us. Note: a definitely false rumor is now circulating that the revolutionists can be contacted via cypherpunks at toad.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- feed me? >jude< ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Prev by Date: through mr. crypto * Next by Date: the hopping remailer is done * Prev by thread: through mr. crypto * Next by thread: the hopping remailer is done * Index(es): * Date * Thread -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From gateway at cryptorights.org Sun Dec 10 08:58:49 2000 From: gateway at cryptorights.org (Robert Guerra) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:58:49 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: <20001210115943.B24183@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Declan: I completely agree with you that internet voting isn't quite ready fom prime-time just yet. But given the current snafu I highly suspect that there will be a lot of interest in the field. Certainly, I hope one of the few things the new congress will be able to do is set-up a commission to propose new voting standards. Hopefully they will pick a standard that doesn't give rise to problems 30-40 years in the future... personally, if I had a say I'd say they should adopt the same system Canada uses. They use a 100 year old system, had few if any recounts, and managed to count all thier manual ballots in less than 72 hours. --On Sunday, December 10, 2000 11:59 AM -0500 Declan McCullagh wrote: > Robert, > With respect, you're joking, right? > > The current system is flawed, true, but an Internet voting system > would likely suffer from far more serious security, authentication, > and fraud problems. This is a recurring topic of discussion in > cryptographic and computer-risks circles. Do some web searches. > > -Declan > > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 10:23:17AM -0500, Robert Guerra wrote: >> Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that >> finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. >> >> One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure >> e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. >> Looks like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! >> >> regards >> >> robert >> From declan at well.com Sun Dec 10 08:59:43 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 11:59:43 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: <120171.976443797@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca>; from gateway@cryptorights.org on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 10:23:17AM -0500 References: <120171.976443797@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20001210115943.B24183@cluebot.com> Robert, With respect, you're joking, right? The current system is flawed, true, but an Internet voting system would likely suffer from far more serious security, authentication, and fraud problems. This is a recurring topic of discussion in cryptographic and computer-risks circles. Do some web searches. -Declan On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 10:23:17AM -0500, Robert Guerra wrote: > Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that > finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. > > One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure > e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. Looks > like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! > > regards > > robert > From edbdk at AREU.customers Sun Dec 10 13:55:16 2000 From: edbdk at AREU.customers (edbdk at AREU.customers) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 13:55:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: make $50,000.00 in just 90 days -KDFG Message-ID: <200012102155.NAA20797@cyberpass.net> Dear cypherpunks: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Make over a half million dollars ($500,000+) every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars - one time! THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! ================================================ BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!! Before you say "Bull", please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are "absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost". DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: "Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received a total of $610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, NJ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail, I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa.3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything." More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ****** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following.THEN READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. **** IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in steps 1 through 6 or you will lose out on a majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So, DO NOT try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1. 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To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD #1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ================================================ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume you and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but let's just say it is only 0.2%. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for Report #1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000. 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Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. **********AVAILABLE REPORTS************* ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering. YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ================================================ REPORT #1, "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Ed Keck 7937 Citadel Ct. Riverside, CA.92503 USA Don't forget to provide a real e-mail address to receive the reports! ================================================ REPORT #2, "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: S.S. Gellner 942 Nassau Cres. Kelowna, B.C. V1Y 4T3 Canada ================================================ REPORT #3, "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: TDC P.O. Box 47542 St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7543 ================================================ REPORT #4, "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Carson Petry P.O. Box 2134 Smyrna, Ga. 30081-2134 USA ================================================ REPORT #5, "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: John Lutheran P.O. Box 33555 San Diego, Ca. 92163-3555 USA ================================================ There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online worldwide! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for Report #2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Everytime your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E- MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business!!! ________________________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2...#5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ****************** MORE TESTIMONIALS**************** "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail". I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and a few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her "hobby"." Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois ---------------------------------------------------------------- "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ---------------------------------------------------------------- "I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else..11 months passed then it luckily came again..I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York NY ---------------------------------------------------------------- "It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of the third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to the Internet." Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ---------------------------------------------------------------- ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! ================================================ If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer protection, Washington, D.C. Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th Congress, this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. Make over a half million dollars ($500,000+) every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars - one time! It's there for you - go for it! Good Luck! From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 14:06:42 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:06:42 -0800 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: RAH whinged: >At 6:52 PM -0800 on 12/7/00, petro wrote: > > >>>At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >>>> >>>>An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring >>>>to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. >>> >>>A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. >>> >>>Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? >>> >>>As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services >>>in large cities. >> >> How do you know they don't? > >Watch your attributions. I didn't say the above... Anyone who has spent *ANY* time on Usenet or mailing lists can easily read the >>'s . If you didn't write *ANY* of the above, then your gripe is with the person to whom I am replying. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 14:27:13 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:27:13 -0800 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mr. May: > >The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of >their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the >Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web >sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several >times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But I took that statement to mean that if Firestone exercised the same level of diligence in the engineering of their tires that most web sites used, they would be recalling a *LOT* more tires, enough to make the current recall a drop in the bucket. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From commerce at home.com Sun Dec 10 11:35:33 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:35:33 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Guerra" > personally, if I had a say I'd say they should adopt the > same system Canada uses. They use a 100 year old > system, had few if any recounts, and managed > to count all thier manual ballots in less than 72 hours. is there any benefit to the 'canadian system' above it's lack of lawyers? in the last decade in canada, i have voted for different levels of govt via: normal X in the circle paper ballot, scantron sheet, write-the-name-in-the-blank ballot, no polling station/mail-only ballot, various absentee forms, proxy (which the fuckers did away with this year), etc. they were counted by: little old ladies with a pencil and paper; or a Brainiac-2000 computer; or possibly not at all depending on canada post and the particular election. i dont see why any of these methods are inherently better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. i imagine we dont hear a fuss because: all positions are generally local positions and of no larger significance; the vote is often won by a large plurality and not in question; all of these legal cases would probably have died with the first prothonotary that saw them; etc. speaking of canadian elections, its too bad the canadian alliance didnt get elected and revoke the bill c-68 gun control laws, eh? From Somebody Sun Dec 10 14:49:44 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 14:49:44 -0800 Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... Message-ID: Note: This is off-list. I don't care if you post it back there, but I don't see the need to take it there. You have said repeatedly: "...and, two, that our social structures map directly to our communication architectures..." I've been doing some thinking about this, and it seems to me that you are about 95% correct in this, you just don't take it far enough. It seems to me that what we think of as society is our communication. Social structures don't just map to the communication infrastructure (architecture, whatever), the communication infrastructure IS the social infrastructure. Society is Communication. Communication is Society. You can't have society without communication. As soon as you have any communication, you include (or are included) in the society of the person you are communicating with--and as soon as the communication is stopped for any length of time you are not apart of it any more. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ap at ladproducts.com Sun Dec 10 15:10:00 2000 From: ap at ladproducts.com (ap at ladproducts.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:10:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: cypherpunks, Stay at Home and Make $$$ too! -GQTO Message-ID: <200012102310.PAA19560@cyberpass.net> cypherpunks, We can help you stay at home and make $$$ too! Join the Nation's Premiere Benefits Company! Simply reply to this email or send an email to opportunity at ladproducts.com! You will be sent an informative email with no obligations! We look forward to working with you! Art Poelns We received your name from a list that said you are interested in making or saving money. Under Bill S.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th U.S. Congress this message can't be considered Spam as long as it includes a way to be removed. To be removed from future mailings, simply respond to ladboy13 at yahoo.com with "REMOVE" in the subject. Thank you. From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 15:25:10 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:25:10 -0800 Subject: A piece of advice?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:18 PM +0200 12/10/00, FRANKY wrote: > Hello to everyone. I'm Alexis and as I'm new to cryptography I >would appreciate a piece of advice. I've read the book "Applied >Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier and I also have the "ICSA Guide >to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more >books related to cryptography. www.amazon.com I assume they can ship internationally. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From alan at clueserver.org Sun Dec 10 15:47:10 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:47:10 -0800 Subject: A piece of advice?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.2.20001210154132.063a43f0@clueserver.org> At 06:18 PM 12/10/00 +0200, FRANKY wrote: > Hello to everyone. I'm Alexis and as I'm new to cryptography I >would appreciate a piece of advice. I've read the book "Applied >Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier and I also have the "ICSA Guide >to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more >books related to cryptography. Just a note... The ICSA crypto book is one of the WORST I have seen. It is very pro-GAK among other things. (It also does not cover a number of topics that you would think. Kerberos gets a half a page. I keep my copy as a reference of what crypto-systems are probably backdoored. The Handbook of Applied Cryptography from CRC press is a good textbook approach to the field. (It is pretty expensive. About $90.) > Also (if I'm not causing enough trouble already) as I'm trying to >secure one system I would like to kindly ask for guidance. How do we apply >an algorithm to a whole system? I know how to encode a message , but a >system? You don't. For security I suggest that you checkout one of the many books on firewalls and computer security specifically. If you are trying to encrypt the entire drive, it depends on the OS as to what you would use. The latest OpenBSD is supposed to have some interesting crypto-hooks. --- | Terrorists - The Boogiemen for a new Millennium. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | | | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan at ctrl-alt-del.com| From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 15:50:31 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:50:31 -0800 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:27 PM -0800 12/10/00, petro wrote: >Mr. May: > >> >>The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of >>their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the >>Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web >>sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several >>times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But > I took that statement to mean that if Firestone exercised the >same level of diligence in the engineering of their tires that most >web sites used, they would be recalling a *LOT* more tires, enough >to make the current recall a drop in the bucket. Sure, but I was making the point that this is an ironic example, as it was the records which Firestone and Ford kept of their customers which allowed them to send recall letters out to those customers! (I just got Yet Another Letter from Ford, which I haven't opened. The last couple have exhorted me to _please_ make arrangements with a local dealer to have the Firestone tires on my Explorer replaced.) I got a similar letter from Costco, the giant box store, saying that a _rope light_ I bought at some time in the past--their letter gave the exact date--has been recalled due to the chance that it may burst into flames under certain circumstances. (When it gets wet, as the waterproofing was faulty. Inasmuch as I use these rope lights to illuminate and heat the interior of my gun safe, I ignored the letter.) There are technological solutions for how companies can notify customers without knowing what customers buy, obviously. Nyms, cut out accounts, agents which send ticklers, etc. This was not my point, only the irony of citing the Firestone recall in a discussion of how companies are tracking purchases. But since the word "irony" has been removed from all current dictionaries.... --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 16:46:05 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 16:46:05 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: <20001210172441-r01010600-0f55b3aa@209.245.227.94> References: <20001210172441-r01010600-0f55b3aa@209.245.227.94> Message-ID: At 5:24 PM -0600 12/10/00, Allen Ethridge wrote: >On 11/30/00 at 1:46 AM, tcmay at got.net (Tim May) wrote: > >> So, you might say, "it works." Nope. Problems: >> >> 1. I ain't gonna read messages that require me to launch my word > > processor. Mail shouldn't need external word processors or text > > editors. > >Mail programs need, at the very least, text editors, or it becomes >difficult to >compose. Or do you mean that word processors should be integrated into mail >programs? Did you miss the word "external" in my sentence? Let me repeat it for you: "Mail shouldn't need external word processors or text editors." In-line vs. attachment is the issue here. Most of those who have been using the "attachment" setting have belatedly realized their errors and are now in-lining their text. > >> Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message >> signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize these >> are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") > >Luddite. I tried above to be polite. Now this. PLONK. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From schear at lvcm.com Sun Dec 10 17:12:23 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:12:23 -0800 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001210170524.07778570@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:26 AM 12/10/00 -0800, petro wrote: >>On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: >> >>> >From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" >>> >> >>> >THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL >> >>A republic is a form of democracy, a representative one. > > No, it isn't. Quite. And the specter of the Florida legislature selecting a new set of electors are providing one of the best civics educations citizens young and old have had this century. Its really quite healthy to have the myth of democracy we were all taught in grade school laid bare by the reality of a conservative and plain reading of the Constitution by some of the best and brightest. steve From aethr at earthlink.net Sun Dec 10 15:24:39 2000 From: aethr at earthlink.net (Allen Ethridge) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 17:24:39 -0600 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001210172441-r01010600-0f55b3aa@209.245.227.94> On 11/30/00 at 1:46 AM, tcmay at got.net (Tim May) wrote: > So, you might say, "it works." Nope. Problems: > > 1. I ain't gonna read messages that require me to launch my word > processor. Mail shouldn't need external word processors or text > editors. Mail programs need, at the very least, text editors, or it becomes difficult to compose. Or do you mean that word processors should be integrated into mail programs? > Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message > signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize these > are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") Luddite. > ASCII is where it's at, at least for e-mail. The real issue is a common format. The fact that there is no common format more complex than ASCII is a tribute to the power of corporations over the power of standards - or, perhaps, if one had socialist tendencies, a tribute to the power of corporations over the power of the people - but I'm a fan of standards. From nobody at remailer.ch Sun Dec 10 10:07:01 2000 From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous) Date: 10 Dec 2000 18:07:01 -0000 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <51051bb51d832d4fcda242d01aa002e8@remailer.ch> Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? > > Not very, I think. It seems it's RAH's specialty. It's quite poetic, > actually. http://www.google.com/search?q="geodesic+economy"+-hettinga+-shipwright Linkname: David J. Phillips dissertation, draft for comments, discussion ... URL: http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/sphill/punks.htm Linkname: Executive Summit URL: http://www.icbi-uk.com/cyberetailfinanceforum/Exec-Summ.htm From geronik at csd.uoc.gr Sun Dec 10 08:18:38 2000 From: geronik at csd.uoc.gr (FRANKY) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:18:38 +0200 (EET) Subject: A piece of advice?? Message-ID: Hello to everyone. I'm Alexis and as I'm new to cryptography I would appreciate a piece of advice. I've read the book "Applied Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier and I also have the "ICSA Guide to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more books related to cryptography. Also (if I'm not causing enough trouble already) as I'm trying to secure one system I would like to kindly ask for guidance. How do we apply an algorithm to a whole system? I know how to encode a message , but a system? I know I'm not being very specific, but I don't know much more myself. If it is not that much of a trouble, please enlighten me! Thanx in advance. Alexis From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 10 18:21:36 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:21:36 -0800 Subject: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >At 2:27 PM -0800 12/10/00, petro wrote: >>Mr. May: >> >>> >>>The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of >>>their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the >>>Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web >>>sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several >>>times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But >> I took that statement to mean that if Firestone exercised the >>same level of diligence in the engineering of their tires that most >>web sites used, they would be recalling a *LOT* more tires, enough >>to make the current recall a drop in the bucket. > >Sure, but I was making the point that this is an ironic example, as >it was the records which Firestone and Ford kept of their customers >which allowed them to send recall letters out to those customers! Oh, I wasn't speaking to that--I agree that there is a degree of irony there. I was just replying to the specific sentences quoted. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From rah at shipwright.com Sun Dec 10 15:48:42 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:48:42 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: At 2:06 PM -0800 on 12/10/00, petro wrote: > RAH whinged ...and in error. My apologies. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sun Dec 10 15:53:42 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:53:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: A piece of advice?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, FRANKY wrote: > to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more > books related to cryptography. amazon.com is one place. see also http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/ for an online copy of the Handbook of Applied Cryptography. > secure one system I would like to kindly ask for guidance. How do we apply > an algorithm to a whole system? I know how to encode a message , but a > system? I'm not sure what you mean by "a whole system." Do you mean something like "how do I take a string of letters and represent it as a number so I can encrypt it?" Then you want to look at ASCII or Unicode and random padding like Optimal Asymmetric Encryption Padding (OAEP). I'm not sure what else you mean. -David From xs24 at netease.com Sun Dec 10 17:56:02 2000 From: xs24 at netease.com (xs24 at netease.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:56:02 -0700 Subject: 10 Million E-Addresses, Stealth Mass Mailer & More.. 19440 Message-ID: <200012110216.SAA28912@cyberpass.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 647 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Dec 10 09:04:12 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:04:12 +0200 (EET) Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: >>>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got >>>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of >>>economics :-) > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? Not very, I think. It seems it's RAH's specialty. It's quite poetic, actually. >Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here >as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art >for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same >way? Although 'geodesic' does have, through its use in general relativity, some faint echo of 'operates purely based on local information', I think it's a misnomer. People should rather use the term 'distributed' literally, as it's used in computer science. That's the meaning RAH is after, not true? Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 10 19:04:18 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:04:18 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> References: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> Message-ID: At 2:19 AM +0000 12/11/00, Anonymous wrote: >On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 04:46:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >> >> Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message >> >> signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize >> >> these >> >> are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") > >Apparently, Eudora didn't manage to implement MIME properly within 7 >years. That is unfortunate, but MIME is the right direction >nevertheless. > >A MIME-compliant mail reader without PGP support would just display >the message without the signature, and possible add a note that there >was a signature that could not be verified (or that an attachment >could not be displayed). You're missing the point. Several people set their systems to provide their _entire_ messages as attachments. Riad Wahby acknowledged this, and fixed it. Others did not, so I started filtering them out. Eudora Pro handles MIME just fine. If someone provides a message as an attachment, whether of type JPEG or type MW, then clicking on that attachment icon launches a JPEG viewer or Microsoft Word or whatever. My point is that I don't see the point of expecting readers of a mailing list to open a message in MW or whatever. In-lining usually solves this problem. Signatures, if they exist, can either be verified with another program or with plug-ins to speed up the process. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From ashwood at msn.com Sun Dec 10 17:21:59 2000 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:21:59 -0600 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. References: <120171.976443797@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <00c601c06312$3b6f87a0$bf0c9eac@josephas> I guess it's time once again to dig back into the little bag o tricks to destroy an accurate e-vote. Let's take the most recent election in the US, where the highest office actually hinges on the swing of less than 500 voters. Consider if at the same time we had instated a vote from your home initiative. It was publicly known that the race would be close, so activists were out in force. All it would take is 1000 strong willed people, with equally strong willed guns, standing behind terrified voters who would gladly cast their vote anyway the nice man with the big gun told them to. With public voting locations we can certify that this did not happen, with vote from home, the US has laws specifically for the privacy of what happens behind those doors, as long as it's not illegal. Through this those 1000 vote would have gone for and he would have won the election. In spite of the fact that 1000 felonies were committed to get him elected, the voting structure of the united states is such that those votes MUST be counted. I honestly don't care how good the voting system is. I don't care how many people actually vote their conscience. I don't care how many people were simply killed because they lived in an area that favored . A private system is more corruptible than a public one. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Guerra" To: Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:23 AM Subject: CDR: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. > Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that > finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. > > One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure > e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. Looks > like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! > > regards > > robert > > From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Sun Dec 10 09:23:58 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:23:58 +0200 (EET) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: <02a101c061b5$1a5225e0$cc38e43f@happycat> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: >So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would >the number be good for? If it could be shown that a consistent estimate exists and it was calculated, it would probably affect the scaling properties of the Net - after all, what are fractal dimensions but numbers relating linear scale changes to changes in measures? Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From rguerra at yahoo.com Sun Dec 10 20:17:15 2000 From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:17:15 -0500 Subject: CDR:Re: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: In article <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0 at golem>, "Me" wrote: > is there any benefit to the 'canadian system' above it's lack of > lawyers? Having a plethora of different standards sure doesn't help.. In Canada, and other countries there is a uniform ballot across the country..something that hopefully will be introduced into the USA real soon. > i dont see why any of these methods are inherently > better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting chads on punch card ballots > speaking of canadian elections, its too bad the canadian alliance > didnt get elected and revoke bill c-68 g, eh? Polls before the election were correct and the alliance didn't win. If somone wants to revoke bill c-68 they will have to wait 5 years until the next elecion. BTW. Many thanks to those of you who have replied to my earlier messages on this topic. I hope to answer you within a day or so. regards robert -- Robert Guerra , Fax: +1(303) 484-0302 WWW Page PGPKeys From seanl at literati.org Sun Dec 10 23:21:09 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:21:09 -0800 Subject: BS about RFC2015 messages being "attachments" In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 07:04:18PM -0800 References: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> Message-ID: <20001210232108.B20537@nietzsche.literati.org> On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 07:04:18PM -0800, Tim May wrote: [...] > You're missing the point. Several people set their systems to provide > their _entire_ messages as attachments. Riad Wahby acknowledged this, > and fixed it. Others did not, so I started filtering them out. Riad "fixed" his software by turning off RFC2015. An "attachment" is a part of a multipart MIME message that is not marked as "inline." Any part that *is* marked inline should be displayed inline by your MUA. If you'll look at the raw messages you're receiving, you'll see that the message bodies of RFC2015 messages are marked as text/plain with a content-disposition of inline, so they're not attachments. To say that people are sending their entire messages as attachments just because your MUA displays them that way, without accepting the possibility that your MUA is broken (it is if it can't understand content-disposition in other multipart types besides multipart/mixed), and claiming "Eurora Pro handles MIME fine" without even understanding yourself how MIME works, is disingenuous at best and a flat lie at worst. Please get your ass off the Internet until you can learn how to use it. Barring that, at least keep your mouth shut for a little while and open your eyes for a change. Given that about 30% of my messages every day come from you and contain very little content, I think you can put up with your MUA's broken display of proper MIME messages or get a new one, and stop giving the rest of us grief about it. (message not signed because it's intended for someone with a broken MUA; it's copied to the list lest someone actually start believing Tim's bullshit) -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/users/seanl/ Key fingerprint = 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 GPG/PGP encrypted/signed email preferred. From seanl at literati.org Sun Dec 10 23:49:58 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:49:58 -0800 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 07:04:18PM -0800 References: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> Message-ID: <20001210234957.E20537@nietzsche.literati.org> Sorry, that last one from me was out of line. I'm just tired of being accused of sending my messages as attachments by people with broken MUAs, and then their claiming that their MUA must handle MIME fine because they can click on the pretty little icon and have attachments magically open for them. Having done tech support in the past, I've just heard this sort of excuse one too many times. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/users/seanl/ Key fingerprint = 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 GPG/PGP encrypted/signed email preferred. From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 00:37:17 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:37:17 -0800 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: At 11:17 PM -0500 12/10/00, Robert Guerra wrote: >In article <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0 at golem>, "Me" > wrote: > >> i dont see why any of these methods are inherently >> better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. > >Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting chads on punch >card ballots Clue 1: Hollerith cards are not intended to be read by humans. Clue 2: The first computer count, the second computer count, and in some cases, the third computer count, gave substantially identical results. Clue 3: One party, seeing it was approximately 500-1000 votes behind the other party, initiated a series of diversionary measures, including folderol about butterflies and confused Jews. The diversion lasted long enough for planeloads of New York shysters to arrive. Then the focus shifted to "the will of the people must be listened to." Clue 4: Hollerith cards in banks and corporations around the world are _still _ not read by human eyeballs. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 00:42:31 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:42:31 -0800 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: <20001211013201.A31763@cluebot.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001210170524.07778570@pop3.lvcm.com> <20001211013201.A31763@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 1:32 AM -0500 12/11/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:12:23PM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: >> Quite. And the specter of the Florida legislature selecting a new set of >> electors are providing one of the best civics educations citizens young and >> old have had this century. Its really quite healthy to have the myth of >> democracy we were all taught in grade school laid bare by the reality of a >> conservative and plain reading of the Constitution by some of the best and >> brightest. > >Heh. For every Democrat (and perhaps some Republicans) who goes on TV >and proudly proclaims this perpetual election as a good thing because >it buttresses our civics knowledge, I want to ask: Why don't we >encourage the president, say, to commit a felony? The subsequent >prosecution and conviction would be fascinating to observe and would >*really* educate America's children. Yes, the treatment Bill received after raping Juanita Brodderick was indeed instructive. As was the punishment he received for lying under oath, suborning perjury, tampering with evidence, and (very probably) having witnesses in his scandals killed. (While not _all_ of the several dozen people on the Bill Hit List were victims of foul play, I expect many were. And about 10 standard deviations' worth of deaths as compared to the expected number around other men of similar age --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From declan at well.com Sun Dec 10 22:32:01 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:32:01 -0500 Subject: US: Democracy or Republic? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001210170524.07778570@pop3.lvcm.com>; from schear@lvcm.com on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:12:23PM -0800 References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001210170524.07778570@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20001211013201.A31763@cluebot.com> On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:12:23PM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: > Quite. And the specter of the Florida legislature selecting a new set of > electors are providing one of the best civics educations citizens young and > old have had this century. Its really quite healthy to have the myth of > democracy we were all taught in grade school laid bare by the reality of a > conservative and plain reading of the Constitution by some of the best and > brightest. Heh. For every Democrat (and perhaps some Republicans) who goes on TV and proudly proclaims this perpetual election as a good thing because it buttresses our civics knowledge, I want to ask: Why don't we encourage the president, say, to commit a felony? The subsequent prosecution and conviction would be fascinating to observe and would *really* educate America's children. Of course, I think the perpetual election (see perpetualelection.com) is a good thing for entirely different reasons than those I give above. See: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40200,00.html -Declan From nobody at remailer.ch Sun Dec 10 18:19:18 2000 From: nobody at remailer.ch (Anonymous) Date: 11 Dec 2000 02:19:18 -0000 Subject: Sunders point on copyright infringement & HTML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4535b6a4e14426f68dfab16b86654d8f@remailer.ch> On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 04:46:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > >> Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message > >> signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize > >> these > >> are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") Apparently, Eudora didn't manage to implement MIME properly within 7 years. That is unfortunate, but MIME is the right direction nevertheless. A MIME-compliant mail reader without PGP support would just display the message without the signature, and possible add a note that there was a signature that could not be verified (or that an attachment could not be displayed). That is much better than PGP "ASCII armor" where several lines of meaningless characters are displayed to the user. (It is generally not a good idea to use signatures and HTML on mailing lists, but that is an entirely different issue.) From singhalmona at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 02:58:39 2000 From: singhalmona at yahoo.com (Mona Singhal) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 02:58:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Homeworker Message-ID: <20001211105839.9231.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Sir, I am quite serious in working for you. please send me the details of your work. Thanks. Mona Singhal. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From commerce at home.com Mon Dec 11 01:38:43 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 04:38:43 -0500 Subject: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <003c01c06356$2c4b8d20$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Guerra" > Having a plethora of different standards sure > doesn't help.. In Canada, and other countries > there is a uniform ballot across the country..something > that hopefully will be introduced into the USA real soon. The reason there is a uniform ballot for all federal elections in Canada is that they are all conducted by Elections Canada. Ballots for voting at other levels of government differ greatly from the EC's and each other. What body in the US would have the authority to impose standards for Presidential ballots upon the states? And what problem would it solve? >> i dont see why any of these methods are inherently >> better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. > Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting > chads on punch card ballots for who or what? i, otoh, would think a computer would be more reliable at counting holes in punch cards than scanning for Xes. i'd bet the human would prefer the Xes, tho. as the ballots in florida were intended to be tabulated by comp, the punch card may have been a better choice. From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Dec 11 08:05:11 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:05:11 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A34BAF7.F2F0BCFB@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- James A. Donald: > > Yes, Virginia, not only are there individual evil people, but > > there are entire evil nations that demand and expect that their > > members do evil things, a demand widely supported and forcefully > > encouraged by the people of that nation. Tom Vogt: > evil, of course, is a question of perspective. most of those "evil" > nations/people regard the US pretty much the same way. :-) Stalin and Hitler were especially firm believers in the principle that evil is merely a question of perspective, and thus any nation that got in the way of mass murder, notably the US, was, by their theory, especially evil. Indeed Stalin made "objectivism" a thought crime, punishable by death. By "objectivism" he meant the belief that truth was a matter of fact, rather than authority. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG sGUzebEImqjIGE2qYEUZxQwyALaHoqCWaQOsjcXw 4m3XSJEty7kWxZnNp6n7nk2GGFIzjIkMczsbG1RQT From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 11 05:28:34 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:28:34 -0500 Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From BuySellHardware at netscape.net Mon Dec 11 06:03:13 2000 From: BuySellHardware at netscape.net (BuySellHardware at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:03:13 -0500 Subject: Datamarc- We Buy Surplus Message-ID: <00003930186e$000013f0$0000788d@63.46.201.102> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3666 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rsw at MIT.EDU Mon Dec 11 06:26:52 2000 From: rsw at MIT.EDU (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:26:52 -0500 Subject: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand In-Reply-To: <20001210233028.C20537@nietzsche.literati.org>; from seanl@literati.org on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 11:30:28PM -0800 References: <20001209141853.A6622@positron.mit.edu> <20001210233028.C20537@nietzsche.literati.org> Message-ID: <20001211092652.A20120@positron.mit.edu> "Sean R. Lynch" wrote: > Ummm, Mutt *does* sent the message body as text/plain, and the content-type > of the entire message is multipart/signed. Not sure what you're talking > about here. The content-type of the signature is > application/pgp-signature, which should just be ignored by MUAs that don't > understand RFC2015. That's assuming they recognize multipart/signed as containing parts that can be displayed. The entire problem is that Eudora et al. do not---multipart/signed is unrecognized, so the entire message is treated as unopenable and displayed as an attachment. > And I hope they never add your patch, because people who use broken MUAs > need to suffer, because they're not playing nice with the rest of us. I hope you don't mean this. I don't think there is a Windows MUA that supports RFC2015 at all---are you saying that all Windows users need to suffer? I don't like Windows, but lots of people just can't or don't want to handle anything else. And speaking of not playing nicely, what do you call "...people who use broken MUAs need to suffer..." ? > Thanks, but no thanks, I will *not* break my own MUA to help other people > continue using their own broken MUAs. The Internet is based on standards, > and it's been too long that we've been suffering for those who break the > standards. Witness, for instance, all the pipes that are clogged with > traffic from Windows boxes because they fast start too fast due to their > broken implementations of PGP. I am *sick* and *tired* of people telling > me that I'm somehow sending my messages as attachments when their > content-disposition is inline making them *not* attachments and the > accusors obviously don't have the first clue about MIME works. > > Sorry, I'm just tired, and I want this crap to end. Tim May seems to think > you "acknowledged that we were sending our messages as attachments" and now > considers that carte blanche to filter out RFC2015 messages. He can do > what he likes, but I am upset that he somehow now feels morally justified > doing that due to your harmless little hack. The Internet is based on _suggested_ standards such as RFC2015 (note its disposition---it's not an official standard). No one is forced to comply with them, and those who wish to communicate effectively do their best to use their software in such a way as to be able to do so. It is obvious that you have no wish for the majority of people to be able to read your mail, as you refuse to acknowledge that your messages are not in a format that people support. You hide behind RFC2015, saying "look, I'm following the standard. I must be right." The fact is, there's no "right." It comes down to what you're trying to accomplish. If you're interested in pissing people off and being ignored, then you're doing OK. Otherwise, you might consider backing down on this one. The only thing you're going to acheive is an inability to communicate with the majority of internet users. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 09:32:53 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:32:53 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A34BE57.CCE081D8@ricardo.de> References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> <3A34BE57.CCE081D8@ricardo.de> Message-ID: At 12:45 PM +0100 12/11/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >Tim May wrote: >> >> At 1:41 PM +0100 12/8/00, Tom Vogt wrote: >> >Me wrote: >> >> In English it is preferable to write "I wrote," though "Me wrote" is >> honored in some subcultures. > >that part is put in automatically by netscape. I don't usually add >obvious statements like "look, I can write" to my mails. :) > > >anyways, my whole point was that for many people, religion is as or even >more important than law. I'm sure you have a fair share of them as well. >so things can get pretty interesting when 2 such high-level values >collide. more interesting than a collision between, say, the law and a >more-or-less important demand for privacy. > >that's the whole point. I know some people just can't help turning every >spelling error into an attack on their fundamental values, but frankly, >that's not my problem. Lighten up. It was a joke. (I even provided a hint, in the "honored in some cultures.") --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) 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From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Mon Dec 11 02:43:13 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:43:13 +0000 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] References: Message-ID: <3A34AFC1.25150EE8@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Ray Dillinger wrote: > > It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the US, > to appear in public wearing a mask. > > Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. > > Dunno about other countries and other states. Not at all illegal over here in UK. Banks & some other offices have signs up requesting visitors to remove masks & especially motorbike helmets. Lots of cyclists wear little filter masks or bandanas round their mouths - I suspect it is a style statement more than anything else. In London & some northern cities it isn't at all rare to see Muslim women going completely veiled (though the vast majority don't - it seems to be cultural - some Arabs & East Africans go completely covered, a lot of south Asians & also European Muslims wear headscarves, but don't actually hide their faces. Turks almost never seem to wear veils but then Turks seem to dress more or less the same as Western Europeans these days, at least the ones from Istanbul & Cyprus do, who of course are the vast majority of Turks we see in London (perhaps 5% of the population of the area I live in), maybe things are differnt in Anatolia) I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a law that says the police can tell you to take a mask off. Ken From declan at well.com Mon Dec 11 08:10:33 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:10:33 -0500 Subject: Privacy is another victim of the war on (some) drugs Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001211111025.01510030@mail.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40532,00.html Privacy a Victim of the Drug War by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 2:00 a.m. Dec. 11, 2000 PST WASHINGTON -- When Indianapolis police stopped James Edmond and Joell Palmer at a drug checkpoint two years ago, the two men didn't merely get peeved. They got even. Edmond and Palmer filed a federal lawsuit claiming the drug-stop violated the Constitution's rule against unreasonable searches, and the Supreme Court recently agreed with them in a 6-3 ruling. But privacy scholars caution that the decision is only a minor victory for the right to be let alone, saying that the 30-year old war on drugs has gradually but persistently eroded privacy rights offline and online. Government officials have repeatedly warned of "drug smugglers" and "money launderers" while asking for encryption export controls, increased wiretap powers, and the authority to conduct infrared scans of homes without search warrants. The FBI claims its controversial Carnivore system is a big help in narcotics investigations. "The Fourth Amendment has been virtually repealed by court decisions, most of which involve drug searches," says Steven Duke, a professor of law at Yale University. Duke is talking about the Fourth Amendment's prohibition against "unreasonable" searches and seizures -- a phrasing that permits courts to decide what kinds of searches are reasonable or not. Since the 1970s, the Supreme Court has largely sided with law enforcement's views, and the justices over time have handed police more surveillance and search authority. The high court has said, for instance, that a search based on an invalid warrant is perfectly OK as long as police acted in "good faith." In Oliver vs. U.S., the justices ruled that police can search a field next to a farmhouse for marijuana plants, even if "No Trespassing" signs are posted and the police trespass was a criminal act in itself. Duke believes the court's ruling in the drug-stop case is mildly encouraging, but not much more. "The Supreme Court's decision is a ray of hope," Duke says. "I would hope that the pendulum might swing a little in the opposite direction. But I don't think we'll get back much of the privacy we've lost. I'd be very surprised if we did." One case that the Supreme Court has agreed to review this term, Kyllo vs. United States, will determine whether police can scan homes from afar -- without a warrant -- using a thermal imaging gun. The practice is becoming increasingly common as cops use the devices to hunt for heat patterns that could indicate pot plants in someone's basement. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals had ruled that "we find no violation of the Fourth Amendment" when police used the Thermovision 210 to examine Danny Lee Kyllo's home and convict him of one count of manufacturing marijuana. [...] Perhaps the most striking intersection between the drug war and privacy is in a rather mundane area of the law: wiretapping. In 1968, state officials conducted 174 wiretaps and the feds none, according to statistics from the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts. By 1999, three decades after President Nixon kicked off the drug war, the number had ballooned to 1,350 wiretaps, with a breakdown of 749 state and 601 federal. Not one request was denied. By last year, the vast majority of the wiretaps had become narcotics-related: 978 of 1,350, according to government figures. "The expansion of federal wiretap activity and authority, which are two distinct concepts, is significant," says Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "It is clearly the case that the war on drugs has increased the number of wiretaps conducted and the number of circumstances where wiretaps can be conducted." [...] ********** John Gilmore adds: >The War on Drugs has certainly trashed the Fourth Amendment (with big >help from the so-called Justice Department and some abuse-apologists >on the Supreme Court), and has been a major reason for privacy >intrusions. The fundamental problem with outlawing consensual crimes >is that none of the participants will report them. To make them >enforceable you need a societal mechanism for monitoring consensual >behavior and reporting it to the police. This is not conducive to >privacy. > >I doubt that ALL privacy invasion has been engendered by the War on >Drugs. NSA's export controls were based on WW2 and Cold War >experience. The Internet has produced a major privacy problem by >making previously hard-to-access or hard-to-correlate records readily >available; search engines have been co-conspirators with the WWW >inventors in building easy cross-indexes. The abuse of census data in >rounding up and imprisoning honest and unindicted US citizens who were >Japanese-Americans was not motivated by the drug war. Marketeers have >not been idle either. > >The drug war-crime makes big problems for whatever lives or policies >it touches, and it has certainly had a big negative impact on privacy. >We would all have much more privacy rights if the drug war had never >happened. Restoring those rights after we end the drug war is going >to be a 50-year project. > > John From tom at ricardo.de Mon Dec 11 03:31:03 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:31:03 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A34BAF7.F2F0BCFB@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > When Jews are murdering small children in reprisals against stone throwing > by young men, and Arabs are blowing up school buses, then anti semitic > statements against both Arabs and Jews become legitimate, indeed required. > > Are you an anti semite, or are you indifferent to the murder of > children. Choose one. > > Yes, Virginia, not only are there individual evil people, but there are > entire evil nations that demand and expect that their members do evil > things, a demand widely supported and forcefully encouraged by the people > of that nation. evil, of course, is a question of perspective. most of those "evil" nations/people regard the US pretty much the same way. :-) From tom at ricardo.de Mon Dec 11 03:45:27 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:45:27 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A34BE57.CCE081D8@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > > At 1:41 PM +0100 12/8/00, Tom Vogt wrote: > >Me wrote: > > In English it is preferable to write "I wrote," though "Me wrote" is > honored in some subcultures. that part is put in automatically by netscape. I don't usually add obvious statements like "look, I can write" to my mails. :) anyways, my whole point was that for many people, religion is as or even more important than law. I'm sure you have a fair share of them as well. so things can get pretty interesting when 2 such high-level values collide. more interesting than a collision between, say, the law and a more-or-less important demand for privacy. that's the whole point. I know some people just can't help turning every spelling error into an attack on their fundamental values, but frankly, that's not my problem. From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 10:56:46 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:56:46 -0600 Subject: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7424@cobra.netsolve.net> Agreed. My understanding of Hettinga's (and this list's, for the most part) use of the term "geodesic" is to indicate the accomplishment of a shortest path between two elemnts via increased individual capabilities and reduced reliance on low-efficiency centralized control, as opposed to the concept of eliminating or reducing centralized control in general just for the sake of itself. I am only part of the way through the geodesic economy texts, myself, but I like to think of the particular form of geodesic architecture implied therein as incorporating some distributed infrastructure as a means to an efficiency gain end. But then, I know fuck all. Am I mistaken? -----Original Message----- From: Jim Choate [mailto:ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com] Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 10:49 AM To: cypherpunks at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Subject: Re: Hettinga does *nothing* but hand-waving, folks... On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > dropped packets, or time or something, and the network certainly *looks* > like a geodesic one, with multiple nodes plugged into lots of lines > routing packets in arbitrary directions instead of up and down a > hierarchy. That's not geodesic, that's a distributed systems with stochastic management algorithms. The epitomy of 'free market' thinking applied to communications engineering. It's certainly non-hierarchical but it isn't 'minimum distance'. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2168 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 11:06:27 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:06:27 -0600 Subject: Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7425@cobra.netsolve.net> An even simpler answer is that, for the most part, biometric devices look cool and get investors and potential customers all moist, but really aren't very good security solutions at all. But yes, I have implemented or seen implemented a few different biometric devices that verify animation of the identifying anatomy. However, as I'm sure you can imagine, that doesn't really make things any better. And after standing in a chilly mantrap for a while with one needle in your arm, another in your hand, and a band around your wrist, you start to think that passwords are pretty neat technology. -----Original Message----- From: R. A. Hettinga [mailto:rah at shipwright.com] Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 9:10 AM To: Jonathan Wienke; cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: RE: At 3:00 AM -0800 on 12/9/00, Jonathan Wienke wrote: > Hasn't any seen the movie 6th Day? Who needs a password when you can borrow > the necessary biometric token from its owner if you have a hatchet or decent > knife? The simple answer is that most decent fingerprint readers require a living thumb, either through simple body-heat or, if I remember correctly, bioelectrical measurement. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2557 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 15:51:26 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:51:26 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... Message-ID: At 5:56 PM -0500 12/11/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 9:48 PM +0000 on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > > >> Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >> points on it" > >Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? > Topology is typically not concerned with distance metrics. Doughnuts and coffee cups and all. Geometry is what you're thinking of, presumably. Not as sexy as saying something is "a topologically-invariant geodesic fractally-cleared auction space," but that's what happens when buzzwords are used carelessly. By the way, one topological aspect of a geodesic dome, to go back to that, is that each node is surrounded by some number of neighbors. Applied to a "geodesic economy," this image/metaphor would strongly suggest that economic agents are trading with their neighbors, who then trade with other neighbors, and so on. Tribes deep in the Amazon, who deal only with their neighbors, are then the canonical "geodesic economy." This is precisely the _opposite_ of the mulitiply-connected trading situation which modern systems make possible. So, aside from the cuteness of suggesting a connection with geodesic domes, with buckybits as the currency perhaps?, this all creates confusion rather than clarity. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' ---------------End of Original Message----------------- --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 11 15:51:26 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:51:26 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: References: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: At 5:56 PM -0500 12/11/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 9:48 PM +0000 on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > > >> Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >> points on it" > >Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? > Topology is typically not concerned with distance metrics. Doughnuts and coffee cups and all. Geometry is what you're thinking of, presumably. Not as sexy as saying something is "a topologically-invariant geodesic fractally-cleared auction space," but that's what happens when buzzwords are used carelessly. By the way, one topological aspect of a geodesic dome, to go back to that, is that each node is surrounded by some number of neighbors. Applied to a "geodesic economy," this image/metaphor would strongly suggest that economic agents are trading with their neighbors, who then trade with other neighbors, and so on. Tribes deep in the Amazon, who deal only with their neighbors, are then the canonical "geodesic economy." This is precisely the _opposite_ of the mulitiply-connected trading situation which modern systems make possible. So, aside from the cuteness of suggesting a connection with geodesic domes, with buckybits as the currency perhaps?, this all creates confusion rather than clarity. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 14:32:31 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:32:31 -0600 Subject: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7429@cobra.netsolve.net> I believe it is still illegal in Ulster, though, right? -----Original Message----- From: Ken Brown [mailto:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 4:43 AM To: Ray Dillinger Cc: Mark Allyn; Jim Choate; cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] Ray Dillinger wrote: > > It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the US, > to appear in public wearing a mask. > > Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. > > Dunno about other countries and other states. Not at all illegal over here in UK. Banks & some other offices have signs up requesting visitors to remove masks & especially motorbike helmets. Lots of cyclists wear little filter masks or bandanas round their mouths - I suspect it is a style statement more than anything else. In London & some northern cities it isn't at all rare to see Muslim women going completely veiled (though the vast majority don't - it seems to be cultural - some Arabs & East Africans go completely covered, a lot of south Asians & also European Muslims wear headscarves, but don't actually hide their faces. Turks almost never seem to wear veils but then Turks seem to dress more or less the same as Western Europeans these days, at least the ones from Istanbul & Cyprus do, who of course are the vast majority of Turks we see in London (perhaps 5% of the population of the area I live in), maybe things are differnt in Anatolia) I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a law that says the police can tell you to take a mask off. Ken -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2824 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sarrison at pacificresearch.org Mon Dec 11 16:41:15 2000 From: sarrison at pacificresearch.org (Sonia Arrison) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:41:15 -0800 Subject: another privacy survey Message-ID: "Ranks of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing" Most Americans support the dissemination of data contained in public records, but they also say that there must be a legitimate legal or social reason for the extraction of this data, according to a recent survey conducted by Privacy and American Business and ORC International. As long as the information is not abused, most Americans support the use of personal data on the Internet for commercial purposes. This support includes the use of home or work addresses by law enforcement, potential employers, or consumer credit companies. Those surveyed believe it is less acceptable to allow private investigators or ordinary citizens to access the information. The 1,000 people surveyed in the report also say that they object to the government posting personally identifiable public information on the Internet unless there are safeguards. These safeguards include the government requiring the consent of the individual before personal information is displayed on public record, and requesting a specific purpose for such information to be displayed on the Internet. Privacy and American Business President Alan Westin says that more Americans now fall into the category of "privacy pragmatist" rather than "privacy fundamentalist." Ron Plesser of Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolf says that the Internet industry must determine how to properly use Social Security numbers. "Regulating the purchase and sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet won't come overnight," Plesser says. http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/1211m.html#item6 From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 14:46:43 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:46:43 -0600 Subject: Personal Firewalls Fail the Leak Test Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C742A@cobra.netsolve.net> Whatever. Comments below. -----Original Message----- From: Nomen Nescio [mailto:nobody at dizum.com] Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 12:00 AM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Personal Firewalls Fail the Leak Test > problem of hacker attacks. Most people don't have any > vulnerabilities; there's nothing a hacker can do to you. So I argue > against the necessity of any kind of inbound blocking tool," said > Gibson. This man is clearly a security genius. > "They do a cryptographic signature of the programs you're allowing. > That's not hard to do, but they're the only ones who do it," he > said. Is it the responsibility of firewall software to do integrity checking? Isn't host-based intrusion detection a different thing altogether? I'm not defending software that is pretty obviously crap, but at least make an intelligent argument on it's weakness. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1626 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Mon Dec 11 15:10:51 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:10:51 -0600 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C742B@cobra.netsolve.net> James, you are so violently skewed, I'm sea-sick just reading this. Anti-Semite or indifferent to child murder? Is there a third choice? And I might also point out that if you are choosing (correctly, from a technical perspective) to include the Arabs in the general grouping of "Semites", then you must also point out that to avoid being someone who is indifferent to the murder of children, one must be anti-Pope, anti-Jesus, anti-early-Christanity, and anti-cryptanalysis. I don't really buy your generalization, so if you are going to be a vocal bigot, please at least be a little more clear. -----Original Message----- From: James A. Donald [mailto:jamesd at echeque.com] Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:24 AM To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com Subject: Re: RE: Re: About 5yr. log retention -- Jim Choate wrote: > > Muslims have the stricture not out of privacy concerns but > > property concerns of the husband. Remember, women are things to > > those ragheads. Ken Brown wrote: > Jim is turning in to Tim... When Jews are murdering small children in reprisals against stone throwing by young men, and Arabs are blowing up school buses, then anti semitic statements against both Arabs and Jews become legitimate, indeed required. Are you an anti semite, or are you indifferent to the murder of children. Choose one. Yes, Virginia, not only are there individual evil people, but there are entire evil nations that demand and expect that their members do evil things, a demand widely supported and forcefully encouraged by the people of that nation. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG N6hvr8nWXopwCzktuWlQMZpBXyVkyyohyyGfxxcd 4aXcdw/9Raf7wyVHdrlnGQGeL79UzvNj/vRMzjF+p -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3004 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunder at sunder.net Mon Dec 11 14:13:27 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:13:27 -0500 Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: References: <3.0.6.32.20001205174524.007f03f0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3A355187.72D3F39B@sunder.net> David Honig wrote: > > At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > > > >An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring > >to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. > > A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. > > Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? > > As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services > in large cities. Physical locks can be picked. I doubt it's worth bothering with unless someone can figure out a good protocol to implement. Why? Simple. Two words: Hardware access. Once you have access to the hardware, including installing both hardware and software sniffers, the game is over. The attacker isn't after your passphrase just to have the passphrase. The attacker is after your data. He wants access to what's in that encrypted email or file. And how does that data get encrypted? You type it in. Or you print or display it. At those two points, someone with hardware access can get to your data without having your passphrase by bugging your keyboard, monitor's output, or printer output. If you type in your messages on the PC and encrypt them before you send them, what's the use? A Keyboard sniffer has already got the message you think you've encrypted. But since you have to type in your passphrase to access the data, they have your passphrase also. Let's go back to using a PDA, ring or other access method: 1. If you simply send your passphrase over a serial port, USB port, IR, ethernet, or any other kind of communications bus, it can be captured. 2. You can do other things such as send the encrypted key to the PDA, have the PDA decrypt it after it asks its owner for a passphrase (and salt with timestamps) but once the key is on the (untrusted) PC, its as good as captured, and so is the data. 3. If you do all the crypto on the PDA (mighty slow unless you've got a beefy PDA) you're choked by the communication method's throughput - which isn't bad over USB. *But* if you display anything on the PC it too can be captured. Bottom line: Unless you can handcuff a notebook to yourself 24/7/365 and never sleep, it's mighty damned hard to trust it. There's always some intrusion vector via the hardware. You can harden your hardware against tampering, which is a guaranteed way to bring up the topic of exploding hard drives, etc. :) And both myself and Tim will tell you "Look in the Archives, we've talked about this to death already." Another option is to have a small portable fully functional computer and just use a big USB/Firewire/SCSI disk to store the encrypted data. Since all the sectors read/written on this drive are encrypted, hardware access to the hard drive gains your attacker nothing. At best they can only damage the drive, which if you have backups is a negligible annoyance. For civilized attackers, remember there is TEMPEST monitoring to worry about. For less civilized attackers: You can be mugged or robbed, but if they get your notebook without the passphrase, it's a waste of their time. So if the notebook is returned to you, sell it on eBay and setup a new one. And at some point, even if you have your notebook with you at all times, you will fall asleep - naturally or with the help of a sleeping pill in your drink, etc. When you do, your attacker has physical access to your notebook, and to you. And when you wake, you may find the rubber hoses awaiting deployment. Now, for extra credit, dear punks, mull over a protocol or way to prevent the above attack vectors. And be sure to include a special passphrase for the rubber hose treatments. Perhaps a few layers of them, so when they beat you for the 2nd passphrase you can give them a slightly more incriminating passphrase, but still not a fully damaging one. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 11 14:56:28 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:56:28 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> References: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: At 9:48 PM +0000 on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two > points on it" Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From kstkbg at hotmail.com Mon Dec 11 20:39:52 2000 From: kstkbg at hotmail.com (Karst Starkenburg) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:39:52 -0800 Subject: Fractal geodesic networks References: Message-ID: If what you are looking for is an estimate of fractal dimensions in the Internet, look at the following paper, which was published in the 1999 ACM/SIGCOMM conference: On Power-Law Relationships of the Internet Topology, Michalis Faloutsos, University of California at Riverside; Petros Faloutsos, University of Toronto; and Christos Faloutsos, Carnegie Mellon University. Power laws are measurable, and somewhat related to the "fractal" nature. According to the measurement described in the paper, the Internet topology is, in fact, fractal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sampo A Syreeni" To: "Carol A Braddock" Cc: Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:23 AM Subject: CDR: Re: Fractal geodesic networks > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: > > >So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would > >the number be good for? > > If it could be shown that a consistent estimate exists and it was > calculated, it would probably affect the scaling properties of the Net - > after all, what are fractal dimensions but numbers relating linear scale > changes to changes in measures? > > Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university > > From ben at algroup.co.uk Mon Dec 11 13:48:43 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 21:48:43 +0000 Subject: Questions of size... References: Message-ID: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> What???? Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. Saying that it has anything to do with distributed systems is making it up as you go along. And if RAH is now going to claim that's what he meant then he's making it up as he goes along, too (well, we knew that anyway, but redefining geodesic in this way is going too far). Cheers, Ben. "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > > --- begin forwarded text > > Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:04:12 +0200 (EET) > From: Sampo A Syreeni > To: Ray Dillinger > cc: > Subject: Re: Questions of size... > Sender: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Reply-To: Sampo A Syreeni > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > >>>(RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got > >>>this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of > >>>economics :-) > > > >Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? > > Not very, I think. It seems it's RAH's specialty. It's quite poetic, > actually. > > >Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here > >as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art > >for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same > >way? > > Although 'geodesic' does have, through its use in general relativity, some > faint echo of 'operates purely based on local information', I think it's a > misnomer. People should rather use the term 'distributed' literally, as it's > used in computer science. That's the meaning RAH is after, not true? > > Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university > > --- end forwarded text > > -- > ----------------- > R. A. Hettinga > The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation > 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA > "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, > [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to > experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From declan at well.com Mon Dec 11 19:45:00 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:45:00 -0500 Subject: Yet Another Survey: Americans have become privacy pragmatists Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001211224431.015c9060@mail.well.com> [Originally sent to politech at politechbot.com. --DBM] --- [I believe Americans care a lot about privacy invasions _when they don't have a choice_ -- such as cops sniffing your house for illegal drugs with airborne drones or Thermovision 210s. But when Americans _get to choose_ whether to give up their privacy in exchange for something of value, they often do. Just look at Safeway discount cards (and, in DC, Fresh Fields discount cards). Obviously not all choices -- health insurance comes to mind -- are as clear. But I don't think Americans will pay a lot extra to protect their privacy. How many Internet consumer-privacy firms have succeeded? --Declan] ******* From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Dec 11 20:59:50 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:59:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fractal geodesic networks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Karst Starkenburg wrote: > Power laws are measurable, and somewhat related to the "fractal" nature. > According to the measurement described in the paper, the Internet topology > is, in fact, fractal. There is no such thing as 'the Internet topology'. There are many topologies and protocols. Some aspects are fractal, some are not. If you're talking strictly of the connectivity diagram, it is certainly self-similar (which would account for the power law, I made reference to a similar power law, m/4, that is used in biology related to branching) and space filing, but that doesn't make it self similar enough to qualify for 'fractal' in the strictest sense of the word. Different branches, while they are both branches, wouldn't share enough common sub-structures to have similar fractal dimensions, and it still retain any convenience from a global perspective. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From rah at shipwright.com Mon Dec 11 20:22:09 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:22:09 -0500 Subject: "Anarchism vs. Right-Wing 'Anti-Statism' Message-ID: http://www.ainfos.ca/en/ainfos05508.html Looks like the Wobblies live... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From sunilpandith at usa.net Tue Dec 12 03:11:23 2000 From: sunilpandith at usa.net (sunil pandith) Date: 12 Dec 00 04:11:23 MST Subject: Info..help Message-ID: <20001212111123.23934.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Dear Sir, I am an engineering student. I am interested in real time encryption of = voice using a DSP kit and a stream cipher., Kindly send me the link = where the algorithm is available... I am in need of the white paper or similar thing, which is going to = explain me the algoritm clearly, thanking you, sunil ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From Somebody Tue Dec 12 07:02:26 2000 From: Somebody (Somebody) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:02:26 -0700 Subject: Questions of size... Message-ID: Bob, The distinction between geometry, topology, and, presumably, homology, begs the question. You, following Huber, have used the word geodesic to refer to connections of minimal cost. In the economic manifold (surface) this is presumably the only important metric (local distance function). The analogy is mathematically precise in all respects, and therefore correct. I'd have flogged you into submission long before this if it were not so. Geodesics, or more properly, geodesic paths, are locally defined. There is not necessarily a geodesic between two specific points. In a differentiable manifold with a sufficiently smooth metric, there are geodesic paths in every direction through every point, however. Whether there is one of those paths going to some other given point is a question of connectivity and other topological issues. Two separate spheres are a single differential manifold. No great circle path -- the geodesics of each surface -- connects any point on one sphere with any point of the other. Unfortunately, geodesics may also be the longest paths between two points. Just go the wrong way on the great circle determined by two ends of the Mass Ave bridge. It's a path of stationary length: slight variations in the path make hardly any difference in its length. Unfortunately its length is maximum rather than minimum. By the way, have I mentioned that I HATE it when I agree with Tim? ------------------------ From: "R. A. Hettinga" Subject: Re: Questions of size... Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:16:57 -0500 To: Some People, Privately --- begin forwarded text From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Dec 12 08:50:06 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:50:06 -0800 Subject: "Anarchism vs. Right-Wing 'Anti-Statism' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001212082358.0237fb10@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 11:22 PM 12/11/2000 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > http://www.ainfos.ca/en/ainfos05508.html > > Looks like the Wobblies live... The wobblies never lived. In the USA, class struggle unionism collapsed at the end of the nineteenth century. The wobblies were a "union" composed almost entirely of the leadership of vanished class struggle unions, with very few actual workers among their membership. All chiefs, no indians. From the very beginning in 1905, the wobblies were a nostalgic look back to the glory days of the 1870s and 1880s of class struggle unionism, as if in 1980 some forty year old ex hippies were to form a commune in memory of the sixties. During the early days of unionism, the 1870s, many unionists believed that the union was destined to replace the capitalist. Some of them believed the union would replace the capitalist while retaining the market economy in whole or part (syndicalism) and some believed the union would replace the capitalist and the entire market economy (socialism, one big union) In some parts of America they actually had some substantial success with this program. It then instantly became apparent that replacing the authority of the man who pays you, with the authority of the man you elected, was not an improvement, because the man you elected (claiming to be "the workers") claimed the authority to punish individual workers who did not do as they were told, whereas the unelected man with money claimed no such authority. After several horrifying incidents in which unions indiscriminantly murdered numerous members of the working class, class struggle unionism became violently unpopular among the working class in the USA. It then steadily and rapidly lost power to bread and butter unionism, sometimes voted out, and sometimes, when the violence of the class struggle union made voting and competition impossible, crushed by the militia. After all the class struggle unions had irrevocably lost power or been crushed, the washed up remnants of their leadership, remembering the glory days of their youth, formed the IWW, the wobblies, from remnants of the leadership groups of 57 different class struggle unions. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG SMD7xSkJ6JMdVcy9MegPQnRKEudA52hh9CVA4W14 4zka+pWxZEcihvPyDXbhTOTW1YuC93TklE6KwF97g From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Dec 12 09:09:04 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:09:04 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A3620D5.E284CEA6@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Tom Vogt: > > > evil, of course, is a question of perspective. most of those > > > "evil" nations/people regard the US pretty much the same way. > > > :-) James A. Donald: > > Stalin and Hitler were especially firm believers in the principle > > that evil is merely a question of perspective, Tom Vogt: > and you seriously believe you can debunk a point by pointing out > that there's a few assholes among its followers? oh, come on. If morality is merely relative, then what is wrong with murdering a few million jews, kulaks, or people as irritating as James A. Donald? All a matter of perspective, isn't it? > "evil" could, I believe, be *defined* as "the term pretty much > everyone uses to describe his or her enemies". People who use this definition have a disturbing tendency to define entire social groups, races, classes, as their enemies. The reason we define certain killings as murder is not because "the bible tells us so", but because we want to know if a killing indicates that the killer is apt to kill murderously. In practice we notice that one piece of metal is like another, and other kinds of metal unlike, and we call one such group of pieces of metal "iron", "iron" being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. The naming does not make it iron, but the character of the metal itself. Similarly we observe that one deed, and one man, is like another, and another unlike, and we call one such group of men and deeds "evil", "evil" being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. Let us look at how real people in real life use the word "evil": Immediately after the bombing of Serbia, lots of US government officials went out on TV to argue that the bombing of Serbia was necessary and advisable because the ruler of Serbia was "evil". I do not have a transcript, but it seemed clear to me that they did not argue that he was evil, therefore deserved to have his soldiers blown up, but instead argued that he was evil, therefore his soldiers were likely to cause harm, therefore it was a wise precaution to blow his soldiers up. They unhesitatingly drew an empirical conclusion from a normative fact, and they reasonably expected that everyone listening would find the alleged normative fact compelling evidence for the empirical conclusion. They crossed the "is ought gap" without the slightest difficulty, and so does everyone else except for monsters and philosophers. I find it striking that many of the philosophers who have such great difficulty with this alleged gap have some connection to monstrous regimes. Not all of them by any means, but most of them. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG ILP99SyVaIkmx215wqr43UJJ0hQduNWeaZ0/k7GM 4mzrCxbxrsnsEX63mRLtarq6nQ94evNZW18Avove4 From mmotyka at lsil.com Tue Dec 12 09:19:09 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:19:09 -0800 Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz Message-ID: <3A365E0D.9A5C7412@lsil.com> Bob, We *do* all trade with our neighbors so your term is only trouble when looking at the wrong part of the geometry. With trade the measure should not be based on physical space or network geometry, those are transient and permutable, rather the measure should be based on the proximity of the parties in terms of goods consumed, goods produced and pricing. The networks are not electrical or geographical they're economic. So while it does affect cost all this communication and transportation technology is only the physical layer. Mike From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 12 09:47:10 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:47:10 -0800 Subject: Info..help In-Reply-To: <20001212111123.23934.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001212094710.009f3c20@idiom.com> At 04:11 AM 12/12/00 MST, sunil pandith wrote: >Dear Sir, >I am an engineering student. I am interested in real time encryption of = >voice using a DSP kit and a stream cipher., Kindly send me the link = >where the algorithm is available... > >I am in need of the white paper or similar thing, which is going to = >explain me the algoritm clearly, You're an engineering student, and since you're on USA.NET, I'd assume you're in the US. So go to your school's library, and get a copy of books on cryptography - I'd recommend Bruce Schneier's "Applied Cryptography". It's got a bibliography with over 1000 references, so you should be able to use your library to look up more detail about anything that Schneier talks about. You're talking about "The Algorithm" like there's only one. There are lots. Read Schneier, pick an algorithm, and explain your selection to your professor. Think about the security of the algorithm, things you need to be careful of for using it securely, the performance needs of the algorithm, the capabilities of your DSP and programming environment and the things you'll need to do to implement it. How do you plan to exchange keys? Are there algorithms that are designed for that? What weaknesses do they have? How do you plan to test your system, to be sure the data is really encrypted? Also think about how you'll handle the voice itself. What are your input formats? What's your networking environment? Do you need to do compression? How much bandwidth will your network have? How much computational ability does your DSP have? Are there standard algorithm libraries available for your DSP, or will you need to roll your own? What constraints on voice quality do you have? Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 12 10:08:31 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:08:31 -0800 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator Message-ID: With all of the talk recently of recursively-settled agoric market spaces, multidimensional geodesic actor systems, and other jargon-heavy marketbuzz, I've made up a little table of recommended names. Someone could make a little Perl or Python script to let the computers do all the work. The idea is to take a couple of sexy terms from Columns 1 and 2 and apply them to a noun from Column 3. Care should be taken to use terms which evoke images from relativity, quantum mechanics, artificial life, and other trendy areas. Anything that triggers images from "Star Trek" is good. Here it goes: Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Distributed Fractal Market Geodesic Coaseian Ecosystem Holographic Geodesic Space Multiply-connected Biometric Ecology Least Action Parameterized Continuum Recursively-settled Holographic Cyberspace Fractal Multidimensional Bazaar Bionomic Distributed Hyperspace Agoric Auction Topology Best of breed Metric Metaverse Dark Fiber Anarchic Arena Open-system Quantized Manifold Anarcho-topological Hayekian Actor system Examples of usage: "Digital Datawhack is premised on the principle of creating distributed biometric agoric arenas." "The Von Mises Corporation is the dominant player in deploying recursively-settled holographic actor systems. It is our goal to make agoric, open-system market topologies the bionomic norm." "Fractalbucks are the unit of currency in the Hayekworld bazaar-type open Coaseian system. We believe it to be best of breed in the dark fiber geodesic market space." Glad to be of help. --Tim May, Aptical Foddering Marketspace V.P. -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 07:23:28 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:23:28 -0500 Subject: Biometric serial murder... Message-ID: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=003976162830991&rtmo=LxLdbLhd&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/00/12/12/waus12.html ISSUE 2027 Tuesday 12 December 2000 Outback killers tortured 10 victims By Barbie Dutter in Adelaide Magistrate gags bodies- in barrels case - [12 Dec '00] - News.com.au Snowtown murders [9 Jun '00] - The Age Snowtown: a bank vaults deadly math - The Crime Library THE grisly details of Australia's worst serial killing began to unfold yesterday as a court was told how eight mutilated bodies were discovered dumped in barrels inside the vault of a disused bank in a tiny Outback township. John Bunting, Mark Haydon and Robert Wagner are accused of murdering 10 people between December 1995 and May 1999. James Vlassakis is accused of five murders. All four refused to enter a plea. The killings were allegedly carried out as part of a macabre social security fraud. Most of the eight men and two women killed had close associations - including, in some cases, family ties - with those accused of their murder. Elizabeth Haydon, was a mother of eight married to one of the accused. Wendy Abraham QC, opening the prosecution case, said the four had collected the welfare benefits and disability allowances of their dead victims. They even impersonated some of those they had killed to conduct banking transactions or to deal with the social security office. Before being murdered, some of the victims were made to repeat scripted phrases, which were taped and left on the answering machines of their relatives and friends to divert suspicion from their disappearance, she said. ) Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2000. Terms & Conditions of reading. Commercial information. Privacy Policy. Information about www.telegraph.co.uk. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From seanl at literati.org Tue Dec 12 10:34:16 2000 From: seanl at literati.org (Sean R. Lynch) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:34:16 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 09:09:04AM -0800 References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <3A3620D5.E284CEA6@ricardo.de> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <20001212103416.A25694@literati.org> On Tue, Dec 12, 2000 at 09:09:04AM -0800, James A. Donald wrote: [...] > If morality is merely relative, then what is wrong with murdering a few > million jews, kulaks, or people as irritating as James A. Donald? All a > matter of perspective, isn't it? Believing that evil is a matter of perspective does not necessarily make one a moral relativist. I believe that both good and evil do not exist objectively. However, I don't kill people because a) I would feel bad about it and b) I don't want people killing me back, and c) The type of society I'd like to live in wouldn't function very well if people just went around killing each other willy nilly. > > "evil" could, I believe, be *defined* as "the term pretty much > > everyone uses to describe his or her enemies". > > People who use this definition have a disturbing tendency to define entire > social groups, races, classes, as their enemies. I fully agree with this definition, yet I don't define anyone to be my "enemy" except those who deliberately stand in the way of the things I want to do (nobody right now except maybe the govt). > The reason we define certain killings as murder is not because "the bible > tells us so", but because we want to know if a killing indicates that the > killer is apt to kill murderously. I'm assuming by murderously you mean arbitrarily, which makes them a danger to others. > In practice we notice that one piece of metal is like another, and other > kinds of metal unlike, and we call one such group of pieces of metal > "iron", "iron" being our word for that commonality that makes them > alike. The naming does not make it iron, but the character of the metal > itself. > > Similarly we observe that one deed, and one man, is like another, and > another unlike, and we call one such group of men and deeds "evil", "evil" > being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. When you call someone evil, you're begging the question of their evilness. I've heard lots of people (including myself) called evil to further someone else's aims, that the word no longer has any meaning any more. I'd rather hear "he kills arbitrarily" than "he's evil." I do use the term "evil" occasionally, but it's usually referring to ideas or nasty hacks, and usually in a jocular fashion. > Let us look at how real people in real life use the word "evil": > > Immediately after the bombing of Serbia, lots of US government officials > went out on TV to argue that the bombing of Serbia was necessary and > advisable because the ruler of Serbia was > "evil". I do not have a transcript, but it seemed clear to me that they > did not argue that he was evil, therefore deserved to have his soldiers > blown up, but instead argued that he was evil, therefore his soldiers were > likely to cause harm, therefore it was a wise precaution to blow his > soldiers up. > > They unhesitatingly drew an empirical conclusion from a normative fact, and > they reasonably expected that everyone listening would find the alleged > normative fact compelling evidence for the empirical conclusion. > > They crossed the "is ought gap" without the slightest difficulty, and so > does everyone else except for monsters and philosophers. I find it > striking that many of the philosophers who have such great difficulty with > this alleged gap have some connection to monstrous regimes. Not all of > them by any means, but most of them. At first I thought in this section you were arguing against this particular use of the term 'evil,' and then you go on to say that the use of this term made it possible for the govt to convince people that bombing Serbia was a good thing without having to argue about it, and you say that this is good? How many other groups of people do you think have been convinced to do violence this way? I guess it's OK when the US does it, but not OK when Hitler calls Jews evil? Evil *is* a subjective concept, and whenever you hear it you should immediately become *very* suspicious and ask why, regardless of whether you think it's obvious that someone's evil, because I think sometimes the answer will surprise you. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV http://www.literati.org/~seanl/ "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem!" -Ronald Reagan, 1984 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 07:51:59 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:51:59 -0500 Subject: Geodesic Definition from a Mathematician (PhD, MIT, 197BLA) Re: Questions of size... Message-ID: ...who like most of us, agrees with Tim *lots* more often than he likes to admit. :-). Cheers, RAH Who won't wax (too) rhapsodic about how Tim, in his Amazonian example below, described a "geodesic recursive auction" (digital silk road, Hughes "piracy" market, whatever) ... --- begin forwarded text From announce at lga2.nytimes.com Tue Dec 12 08:00:51 2000 From: announce at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:00:51 -0500 Subject: Find more of what's inside NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012121604.LAA13625@mail.virtual-estates.net> Dear Member, Thanks for joining the NYTimes.com community. We hope that you are finding our site to be an excellent source of insightful news coverage, in-depth analysis and the best in arts and entertainment. There are a lot of new and useful features on NYTimes.com that may not be immediately evident on our home page. I'd like to take a moment to introduce some of them to you. -- Choose from a broad selection of exclusive daily e-mail newsletters ranging from breaking news alerts and daily headline summaries to weekly updates on the latest movies and books: http://email.nytimes.com/email/email.jsp?cub -- Search the past two weeks of articles from major news sections, free of charge: http://search.nytimes.com/search/?cub -- Play today's New York Times Crossword Puzzle for free using our special Java-based solver. Take your best shot, then come back the next day for the answers. http://www.nytimes.com/diversions?cub -- Get the latest news, information and entertainment on your mobile phone wherever you are, through our Wireless Application Protocol (WAP) enabled news service. Key in [wap.nytimes.com] on any WAP-enabled mobile phone, or visit this page for more information: http://www.nytimes.com/services/nytmobile?cub -- Send NYTimes.com articles to your friends and colleagues. Look for the new "E-mail This Article" link at the top and bottom of most articles on the site. Thanks again for your interest in NYTimes.com. To comment on any aspect of our site or services, feel free to write to us at comments at nytimes.com. We hope you'll make a point of visiting us today and every day. Sincerely, Rich Meislin, Editor in Chief New York Times Digital ABOUT THIS E-MAIL ---- This is a one-time e-mail. As a member of the BBBOnline Privacy Program and the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy. Please do not reply to this e-mail. From carskar at netsolve.net Tue Dec 12 09:50:39 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:50:39 -0600 Subject: Questions of size... Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C742E@cobra.netsolve.net> Comments below: > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:51 PM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Re: Questions of size... > > By the way, one topological aspect of a geodesic dome, to go back to > that, is that each node is surrounded by some number of neighbors. > Applied to a "geodesic economy," this image/metaphor would strongly > suggest that economic agents are trading with their neighbors, who > then trade with other neighbors, and so on. > > Tribes deep in the Amazon, who deal only with their neighbors, are > then the canonical "geodesic economy." I would disagree with the supporting logic here. You could theoretically conclude that such systems were geodesic in nature if you really wanted to, but it would be due to the fact that there is a minimum economic distance (cost, perhaps) in dealings between participants. I don't think it is safe to say that these transactions are canonically geodesic, unless you are also willing to propose that the "surface" of the economic structure is bound inseperably to the geography of the planet. I believe that when we are talking about a distance metric associated with the structure of economic transactions (we are talking about transactions, right?), the most natural metric to be used in geodesic economics would be cost. That's not to say that I have, at this point, read any material that makes a great logical case for the geodesic nature of the economic transactions that Mr. Hettinga describes. I am currently operating on a little blind faith and a big hunch when assuming for the sake of conversation that Mr. Hettinga's proposed transactions would be reduced-cost. It just seems to make sense. I agree with you, Mr. May, that a seemingly geodesic economomic system can be achieved through localization of the market and direct trade. I do not believe that localization is a defining element of a geodesic economy. It seems that a broad move toward localization being in-efficient in our own economy (one would have to prove this, and why), the concepts that Mr. Hettinga proposes may provide a working substitute for localization, by proposing a means of direct interaction between parties that breaks geographical limitations, and thereby reducing E.D. (economic distance). Again, one would have to prove that cost is a good metric for E.D., and then one would have to prove that Mr. Hettinga's proposals result in reduced cost in transactions. It's a tough case, but my hunch sides with Mr. Hettinga. > This is precisely the _opposite_ of the mulitiply-connected trading > situation which modern systems make possible. > > So, aside from the cuteness of suggesting a connection with geodesic > domes, with buckybits as the currency perhaps?, this all creates > confusion rather than clarity. > > > --Tim May > -- > (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the > election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. > Stay tuned.) > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4780 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 12 12:03:40 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:03:40 -0800 Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> References: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: At 7:42 PM +0000 12/12/00, Ben Laurie wrote: >Sampo A Syreeni wrote: >> >> On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: >> >> >Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >> >points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. >> >> No question about it. The term also doesn't mean a whole lot when applied >> as-is in the many instances it is on this list. As Tim put it, it pretty >> much equates to "cyberpunkish". > >Not being subscribed to cypherpunks (has S/R improved?) I will have >missed that. Signal happens when good writers contribute good articles. Noise happens in the expected ways. Noise is what the delete key, and filters, were made for. As you are apparently reading this from the "DBS" list, you are not seeing any of my contributions. Regrettfully, DBS (and DCSB, or Bearebucks, or whatever Bob is calling his list(s)) is not an "open system." The Cypherpunks tried such a censored list a few years ago, and we rejected the approach. I wrote a large article debunking the "geodesics is about topology" point of view. Others have said similar things. Please don't contribute articles to the Cypherpunks list if you are, as you say, not subscribed. While we don't reject articles by nonsubscribers, as per the above, it is tacky and rude for nonsubscribers to address articles to lists they are not tracking. Thank you, --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 09:40:57 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:40:57 -0500 Subject: [Press Release List] Zero-Knowledge Systems Unveils Free, Easy-To-Use Freedom 2.0 Inte rnet Privacy Suite: The Most Comprehensive Internet Privacy And Security Tool Available Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl Tue Dec 12 04:00:32 2000 From: mix at mixmaster.ceti.pl (Anonymous Remailer) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:00:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring ing NJ Mob Case (was Re: In-Reply-To: <3A30E45F.9FA91C35@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: Ken Brown wrote: > In every office or factory I've ever been in, including government ones > where we kept paper copies of tax returns (yes folks, I have worked for > the Inland Revenue) there are cleaners. They seem to come in 3 kinds - > middle-aged black women, African students working their way through > college, and people with vaguely asiatic features who sound as if they > are speaking Portuguese. The latter would probably be Phillipinos. From frissell at panix.com Tue Dec 12 10:18:09 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:18:09 -0500 Subject: FC: Yet Another Survey: Americans have become privacy pragmatists In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001211205025.015929d0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001212130804.04ac9900@popserver.panix.com> >Business President Alan Westin says that more Americans now fall into the >category of "privacy pragmatist" rather than "privacy fundamentalist." Ron >Plesser of Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolf says that the Internet industry >must determine how to properly use Social Security numbers. "Regulating >the purchase and sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet won't >come overnight," Plesser says. Damn few "privacy fundamentalists" out there. Most "privacy advocates" support massive government privacy invasions including the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended, the Census Bureau, and the various state DMVs. Unless a "privacy advocate" is prepared to call for the elimination of the above privacy invading institutions or at least their conversion to anonymous credential technology, then I submit that they are *not* privacy advocates at all. As for the eternal SS# question, Amex and Discover will currently give you "one time use" cc numbers to use over the nets. A consumer-friendly government could do the same. Particularly since they already have the institutional setup in place. Anyone who forms an entity of any kind that has US tax implications (sole proprietorship, partnership, trust, estate, corporation, etc.) can/must apply for a taxpayer ID number (TIN). The Feds could issue them to the rest of us for one-time use. DCF I knew America was in trouble when I found that the application to join the Sons of the American Revolution asks for your Social Security Number. From sunder at sunder.net Tue Dec 12 10:28:29 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:28:29 -0500 Subject: fingerprint mouse. References: Message-ID: <3A366E4D.EB85336E@sunder.net> Tim May wrote: > > I wonder how long before a court-authorized measure will be simply > mugging a target and cutting off his ID finger. > > When government adopts the MO of the thief, all things are possible. What? You mean they haven't already? :) -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From tom at ricardo.de Tue Dec 12 04:57:57 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:57:57 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A3620D5.E284CEA6@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > > evil, of course, is a question of perspective. most of those "evil" > > nations/people regard the US pretty much the same way. :-) > > Stalin and Hitler were especially firm believers in the principle that evil > is merely a question of perspective, and you seriously believe you can debunk a point by pointing out that there's a few assholes among its followers? oh, come on. > and thus any nation that got in the > way of mass murder, notably the US, was, by their theory, especially > evil. Indeed Stalin made "objectivism" a thought crime, punishable by > death. By "objectivism" he meant the belief that truth was a matter of > fact, rather than authority. "evil" could, I believe, be *defined* as "the term pretty much everyone uses to describe his or her enemies". on the other hand, I don't know many people who don't consider themselves righteous, good, etc. thinking about it, objective is a word that has been abused quite a lot by virtually any faction in power during a given time. it's not been too long since the existence of god, heaven and hell was an "objective fact". stalins definition of "objectivism", as you repeat it above, is just one more of those abuses. what you say is merely that he called everyone who opposed his philosophy by that term. however, in most of the worlds we're living in today, the label of a thing is seperate from the thing itself. From alan at clueserver.org Tue Dec 12 14:02:03 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:02:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was > spoken by a Canadian!?! Better yet -- John Young. ]:> alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From tom at ricardo.de Tue Dec 12 05:04:47 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:04:47 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <3A2FC29C.A80C6D73@ricardo.de> <004601c06078$cdf0b460$0100a8c0@golem> <3A30D714.632E2377@ricardo.de> <3A34BE57.CCE081D8@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <3A36226F.C8F7C3B9@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > Lighten up. It was a joke. > > (I even provided a hint, in the "honored in some cultures.") sorry, I've been working overtime on some stuff here lately, and I was too tired to get it. also, I'm tired of the nitpicking some people here exhibit as if there were nothing more important to do than ignore the main point of a posting and nibble on the minor errors. From sreenivasa.prasad at digital.com Tue Dec 12 00:42:30 2000 From: sreenivasa.prasad at digital.com (Prasad, Sreenivasa) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:12:30 +0530 Subject: Need your help. Message-ID: <177E503C4DA3D311BC9D0008C791C30601E6DD8A@diexch01.xko.dec.com> Hi, I have a query wrt 'file' command in unix. When I give the following command the following information is displayed. # file /usr/bin/ABSgtar /usr/bin/ABSgtar: COFF format alpha dynamically linked, demand paged executable or object module not stripped - Version 3.13-12. My question is what is this version number ? I am sure this is not the version of the file in SCCS/RCS. Thanks and Regards, V.Sreenivasa Prasad. Digital Equipment India Limited, 93 A, Industrial Suburb, Yeshwanthpur II Stage, Bangalore - 560 022 India. Phone (O): +91-080-3374785 Ext: 2860 Fax : +91-080-3371498 Email: sreenivasa.prasad at digital.com vs_p at hotmail.com From WSchott at 42001.pjc.com Tue Dec 12 12:14:50 2000 From: WSchott at 42001.pjc.com (Schott, Wayne) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:14:50 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <8C16E34081B1D211BF50006094B976DB07AEDA@DESDESS2> ___________________________________________________________________________ http://www.piperjaffray.com Nondeposit investment products are not insured by the FDIC, are not deposits or other obligations of or guaranteed by U.S. Bank National Association or its affiliates, and involve investment risks, including possible loss of the principal amount invested. Past performance does not guarantee future results. We consider our sources reliable. Accuracy and completeness are not guaranteed. 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Securities products and services are offered through U.S. Bancorp Piper Jaffray Inc., member SIPC and NYSE, Inc., a subsidiary of U.S. Bancorp. ___________________________________________________________________________ From amberdeones at mediaone.net Tue Dec 12 15:02:16 2000 From: amberdeones at mediaone.net (JAMES A MOONEY) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:02:16 -0800 Subject: matrix coat Message-ID: <000801c0648f$92df9100$1f991818@we.mediaone.net> go to trenchco.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 312 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at algroup.co.uk Tue Dec 12 07:28:54 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:28:54 +0000 Subject: Questions of size... References: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <3A364436.F75BB1E5@algroup.co.uk> "R. A. Hettinga" wrote: > > At 9:48 PM +0000 on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > > > Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two > > points on it" > > Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? Indeed. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From declan at well.com Tue Dec 12 13:04:57 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:04:57 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> Here you go: http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi -Declan At 10:08 12/12/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: >With all of the talk recently of recursively-settled agoric market spaces, >multidimensional geodesic actor systems, and other jargon-heavy >marketbuzz, I've made up a little table of recommended names. > >Someone could make a little Perl or Python script to let the computers do >all the work. > >The idea is to take a couple of sexy terms from Columns 1 and 2 and apply >them to a noun from Column 3. Care should be taken to use terms which >evoke images from relativity, quantum mechanics, artificial life, and >other trendy areas. Anything that triggers images from "Star Trek" is good. > >Here it goes: > > >Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 > >Distributed Fractal Market > >Geodesic Coaseian Ecosystem > >Holographic Geodesic Space > >Multiply-connected Biometric Ecology > >Least Action Parameterized Continuum > >Recursively-settled Holographic Cyberspace > >Fractal Multidimensional Bazaar > >Bionomic Distributed Hyperspace > >Agoric Auction Topology > >Best of breed Metric Metaverse > >Dark Fiber Anarchic Arena > >Open-system Quantized Manifold > >Anarcho-topological Hayekian Actor system > > >Examples of usage: > >"Digital Datawhack is premised on the principle of creating distributed >biometric agoric arenas." > >"The Von Mises Corporation is the dominant player in deploying >recursively-settled holographic actor systems. It is our goal to make >agoric, open-system market topologies the bionomic norm." > >"Fractalbucks are the unit of currency in the Hayekworld bazaar-type open >Coaseian system. We believe it to be best of breed in the dark fiber >geodesic market space." > >Glad to be of help. > > >--Tim May, Aptical Foddering Marketspace V.P. > > > >-- >(This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the >election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) > From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 13:25:49 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:25:49 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 4:04 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi Great. Now all we need is one of those translators, like the one that turns text into something the Muppet's Swedish Chef would say... :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Tue Dec 12 13:29:02 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:29:02 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was spoken by a Canadian!?! -Declan At 16:25 12/12/2000 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 4:04 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi > >Great. > >Now all we need is one of those translators, like the one that turns text >into something the Muppet's Swedish Chef would say... > >:-). > >Cheers, >RAH >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 13:43:35 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:43:35 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 4:29 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was > spoken by a Canadian!?! :-). Ooo! Oooo! A canadian *cryptographer*!!! Bomb Canada... (Yes, I get the joke, and consider myself properly spanked. I'll go see *myself* how the Swedish Chef thing works. It can't be that hard, right?) Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From declan at well.com Tue Dec 12 14:08:45 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:08:45 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001212170757.015469c0@mail.well.com> At 14:02 12/12/2000 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote: >Better yet -- John Young. ]:> Modern computer science has not advanced sufficiently to accomplish such a feat. :) -Declan From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 14:28:39 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:28:39 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 4:43 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > (Yes, I get the joke, and consider myself properly spanked. I'll go see > *myself* how the Swedish Chef thing works. It can't be that hard, right?) As Senior Wences(sp?) used to say, "Eeesy for jou to say, for me, ees deeficult!) Okay, so it does searches and replaces on *characters* and doesn't just insert buzz words per se, which means, like the website of the same name says, it does dialectizing, and not jargon per se. >From the Mac source (Chef 1.1) I found on info-mac, the Swedish Chef one's pretty simple, with just a few character substitution rules. The hardest one I found, from a quick perusal in Google, is Cockney, with something like 600 rules, which I haven't actually looked at, yet. Creating text which sounds like me -- much less John Young -- may (or may not :-)) be "eesy". Though, it does remind me of the concordance text-biometric stuff people around here used to fool around with to identify anonymous cypherpunk messages from, um, various cranks... :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From sunder at sunder.net Tue Dec 12 14:48:46 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:48:46 -0500 Subject: Questions of size... References: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> <3A369082.43BEB6A9@algroup.co.uk> <3A369588.4E583A2A@sunder.net> <3A369A33.6AF7C9B8@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <3A36AB4E.74AA61AF@sunder.net> Ben Laurie wrote: > > That'd be cool. Does it count as reading in Mr. May's view? > Most of Tim's post do make it to the filtered list. The ones that are complaints to spams, bomb requests, etc. don't. :) -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Tue Dec 12 15:59:50 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:59:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: leah getting sued (fwd) Message-ID: Things get serious in alternate-namespace land... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:24:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Bradley D. Thornton" Reply-To: orange at dns.list To: orange at dns.list Cc: orange at vrx.net Subject: Re: leah getting sued Sorry Joe, I'm no longer at liberty to discuss this matter. There's a leaker on this "Private" list and I just got contacted by an Australian Barrister with a full copy of my post to this list, and no word as to whom may have forwarded it. To bring a piece of sobering reality to the leakage on a private list just let me point out some earlier jokes from last week where I was the object. "ver didst you put zee microfeesh Vladimer?" Not always as funny as that is it people? So I may start up my own cc list of people on this list of people I "Think" I can trust. On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, !dr.baptista wrote: > > good question - bradley?? did the nice begal identify himself? > > regards > joe > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dan Steinberg wrote: > > > SO? > > My original questions still stand; > > who? > > what? > > where? > > when? > > why? > > > > all you have done is find a venue... > > > > "!dr.baptista" wrote: > > > > > i've changed the subject line - the other subject was geeting confusing. > > > > > > the australian courst are a bit like the canadian courts - one good > > > example is the ontario court general division which in it's wisdom has > > > decided anything to do with the internet that affects a canadian is > > > subject to their jurisdiction. and if for any reason you can't defend > > > yourself - bingo - your guilty. > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dan Steinberg wrote: > > > > > > > Yes but all that was about the threat of Leah being sued. not about them > > > > having grounds to sue others. > > > > My point was that someone (cant remember who) figured she was about to be > > > > sued and I was scratching my head wondering (even in the US) how they could > > > > come up with something? > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bradley D. Thornton" wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Dan Steinberg wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dan wrote something in html or something, so it didn't come up in the > > > > > quote, but... > > > > > > > > > > You mentioned irreparable harm. > > > > > > > > > > Isn't Atlantic Root Network Inc., (Leah and Karl) being harmed by the > > > > > publicity of people offering "pre-registrations" for .biz when there > > > > > aren't any, and have never been any "pre-registration" programs for a > > > > > registry that only offers "Live Registrations"? > > > > > > > > > > Isn't that also fraud, since they have never been accredited by the > > > > > Registry that is the only authority that can accept such agreements to > > > > > allow other registrars to accept registrations for .biz? > > > > > > > > > > Aren't they causing harm by stating that it isn't yet available when it > > > > > is? > > > > > > > > > > The PacificRoot is all over the search engines and .BIZ was featured in > > > > > Wired magazine among others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > ,,, > > > > > (o o) > > > > > |----------------------oOO-(_)-OOo-------------------------| > > > > > | Bradley D. Thornton "So foul a sky clears | > > > > > | Mgr NetWork Services not without a storm" | > > > > > | NOMAD Internetwork - Shakespeare - | > > > > > | www.pacificroot.com | > > > > > |----------------------------------------------------------| > > > > > |-----On the Beaches of Super Sunny Southern California----| > > > > > |----------------------------------------------------------| > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Dan Steinberg > > > > > > > > SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology > > > > 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 > > > > Chelsea, Quebec fax: (819) 827-4398 > > > > J9B 1N1 e-mail:synthesis at vrx.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dan Steinberg > > > > SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology > > 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 > > Chelsea, Quebec fax: (819) 827-4398 > > J9B 1N1 e-mail:synthesis at vrx.net > > > > > > > > > > -- ,,, (o o) |----------------------oOO-(_)-OOo-------------------------| | Bradley D. Thornton "So foul a sky clears | | Mgr NetWork Services not without a storm" | | NOMAD Internetwork - Shakespeare - | | www.pacificroot.com | |----------------------------------------------------------| |-----On the Beaches of Super Sunny Southern California----| |----------------------------------------------------------| From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 12 18:11:05 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:11:05 -0800 Subject: Buying Echelon - Echelon and Acension Island .AC domain names available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001212181105.009dcce0@idiom.com> Suppose you want to buy up a world-wide spying organization.... There a few Echelon names for sale - echelon.dk is owned, but the web site has a for sale sign echelon.com, org, net, and ca are owned by businesses. echelon.to is taken, but I can't get the web page to respond and email bounces with host unknown echelon.co.uk is taken, but I can't get the web page to respond and email to nonexistent at echelon.co.uk gets bouncegrams from postmaster at echelon.com, and there's a maze of twisty little MX records hanging around it. echelon.to is "taken" but doesn't have DNS records If Bill Scannell wants an Acension Island domain name to go with his passport stamp, they're available at http://betterwhois.register.com echelon.ac and echelon.sh (St. Helena) are available :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From declan at well.com Tue Dec 12 15:15:01 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:15:01 -0500 Subject: Insult Islam online, go to jail Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001212181423.015a7f00@mail.well.com> Malaysia Takes Action On Anti-Islam Internet Surfers By Steve Gold, Newsbytes KUALA LUMPUR, MALAYSIA, 12 Dec 2000, 7:48 AM CST Insulting Islam on the Internet in Malaysia could prove costly from now on, as the government has warned that offenders face fines of up to $1,300 and/or three years in prison. This draconian warning came from Abdul Hamid Othman, a minister in the Malaysian Prime Minister's Department Monday, when he said that any Muslim world Internet surfers who insult the Prophet Mohammed and the Koran, the Muslim equivalent of the bible, on the Internet, face dire consequences. The legal action, he said, will be taken under Syariah criminal law - the Law of Mohammed - which all Muslim states adopt. Othman's comments are likely to attract condemnation from Western Internet users and experts, many of whom, say Islamic proponents, do not understand the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed. ... From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:19:46 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:19:46 +1100 Subject: before you read any further close your eyes ....... your cheating References: Message-ID: <001501c0640b$edd2b1c0$869217d2@benny9> From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:28 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:28 +1100 Subject: man im funny! Message-ID: <002001c0640c$6d4e3140$869217d2@benny9> ahahahahha -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 314 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:36 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:36 +1100 Subject: to Message-ID: <003201c0640c$724fee40$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:41 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:41 +1100 Subject: funny Message-ID: <003d01c0640c$75294d00$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:48 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:48 +1100 Subject: for Message-ID: <004801c0640c$79a649a0$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:23:55 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:23:55 +1100 Subject: you Message-ID: <005301c0640c$7dcdd340$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From benny9 at zip.com.au Mon Dec 11 23:24:09 2000 From: benny9 at zip.com.au (BHD) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:24:09 +1100 Subject: One of u poofs unsubscribe me Message-ID: <005701c0640c$862794e0$869217d2@benny9> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Tue Dec 12 08:53:10 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:53:10 +0200 (EET) Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: <3A354BBB.F7EE6F88@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: >Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. No question about it. The term also doesn't mean a whole lot when applied as-is in the many instances it is on this list. As Tim put it, it pretty much equates to "cyberpunkish". What little I've grasped of RAH's usage is that "geodesic" often translates as "distributed", one of the main features of which is that it "operates based on locally available information". Hence... Besides, if you know your Einstein (or Riemann, or Minkowsky) even a little bit you will recognize that one of the prime reasons for the development of a geometric interpretation of physics is the need to have a solid theory not reliant on instantaneous transfer of information ("local"). My interpretation is not unreasonable at all, considering the alternatives. Wanna drop it? >Saying that it has anything to do with distributed systems is making it >up as you go along. Ain't everybody? >And if RAH is now going to claim that's what he meant then he's making >it up as he goes along, too (well, we knew that anyway, but redefining >geodesic in this way is going too far). It's good to know you're hip to this. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From roy at scytale.com Tue Dec 12 15:53:37 2000 From: roy at scytale.com (Roy M. Silvernail) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:53:37 -0500 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001212183610.00abed60@pop3.idt.net> At 04:04 PM 12/12/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Here you go: > >http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi Nifty hack, Declan! From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Tue Dec 12 08:56:21 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:56:21 +0200 (EET) Subject: Questions of size... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >> Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two >> points on it" > >Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? Topology does not deal with dimension or distance. Pure geometry. Not even affine or anything. As I've seen them defined, geodesics do not necessarily mean the shortest path but rather the shortest path based on local knowledge. I.e. if you have a wormhole in general relativity, the possible shortcut does not affect the definition of geodesics in any way. You calculate the geodesic based on the local curvature measure of the space, that's it. Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 16:11:34 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:11:34 -0500 Subject: DCSB: Chuck Wade; ACH in Internet Payment Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [Note that the Harvard Club is now "business casual". No more jackets and ties... --RAH] The Digital Commerce Society of Boston Presents Chuck Wade, Senior Researcher, Internet Payments and Security, CommerceNet Legacy Electronic Payment Systems meet the Internet: Using ACH for Internet Payments Tuesday, January 2nd, 2000 12 - 2 PM The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston One Federal Street, Boston, MA Electronic payment systems have been around for more than a quarter century, but are characterized by a legacy of private networks and mainframe transaction processing systems. Recently, there have been a variety of new schemes proposed and even implemented to bring legacy epayment systems to the Internet. This is especially true of the Automated Clearing House (ACH) system, which is evolving rapidly to support new interfaces with Internet-based payment services. This talk will focus on some of the approaches being used to adapt the legacy ACH system to new Internet payment services, and will explore some of the positive and negative implications of these developments. Chuck Wade is a Senior Researcher for CommerceNet focusing on Internet payments and information security. Prior to joining CommerceNet, he was a Principal Consultant in the Information Security Group of BBN Technologies. At BBN, he led Electronic Commerce initiatives and client engagements, with most of his consulting work within the Financial Industry. As one of the original participants in the FSTC eCheck Project, Chuck has been involved with over-the-Internet electronic payments since the mid 1990's. He also contributed directly to the architecture, design, deployment and testing of various large, mission-critical networks, including the trading floor network for the New York and American Stock Exchanges. In a career spanning a quarter century, Chuck spent all of the '90s with BBN (now a part of Verizon) as a Consultant and Systems Architect. During most of the '80s, he worked at Motorola directing the Advanced Technology Group for the Codex division. He has also worked in the minicomputer industry and university research. He holds both Sc.B. and Sc.M. degrees from Brown University in Electrical Engineering. This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on Tuesday, January 2nd, 2000, from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, on One Federal Street. The price for lunch is $35.00. This price includes lunch, room rental, A/V hardware if necessary, and the speakers' lunch. The Harvard Club has relaxed its dress code, which is now "business casual", meaning no sneakers or jeans. Fair warning: since we purchase these luncheons in advance, we will be unable to refund the price of your meal if the Club finds you in violation of what's left of its dress code. We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by Saturday, December 30th, or you won't be on the list for lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be sent back. Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", in the amount of $35.00. Please include your e-mail address so that we can send you a confirmation If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something out. Upcoming speakers for DCSB are: February 6 Ted Byfield Decentralized DNS Control March 6 Scott Moskowitz Watermarking and Bluespike As you can see, :-), we are actively searching for future speakers. If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, are a principal in digital commerce, and would like to make a presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Committee, care of Robert Hettinga, . -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQEVAwUBOja+gcUCGwxmWcHhAQECxgf+O7pd13JHzqUaJ8LrsXW62i8WSNsnxYCk qXMX/XXopBJW2gt8RL4nOsAt6A1ssgcLK3+kUOcLom804UryJe1p3DfC/HHJVfJP 1o4vGb31nj16qin4W0aWEolNA3beLGsIKIENeaPeCK2PNTu7htOb94q0GxWSI9Xn 5OSvXe23y0vHsnHWO0Ndwl9D16wk0R3kp1kjIfXwUhFCvo7e12tK/f+BVPJYq/u/ ksTR7Cb63a33WfqDUYE7INbo9PNB9ErnbLrK6w2V2WGLwEsqP2fHpgKwKPyKZQOi wouxQlHXmuyOU4KNdGfU5jsAbzAWE/40+P9phVbK+hMLkJzve5wjCg== =jCmh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "dcsb-request at reservoir.com" with one line of text: "help". --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ben at algroup.co.uk Tue Dec 12 11:42:55 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:42:55 +0000 Subject: Questions of size... References: Message-ID: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > > >Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two > >points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. > > No question about it. The term also doesn't mean a whole lot when applied > as-is in the many instances it is on this list. As Tim put it, it pretty > much equates to "cyberpunkish". Not being subscribed to cypherpunks (has S/R improved?) I will have missed that. > What little I've grasped of RAH's usage > is that "geodesic" often translates as "distributed", one of the main > features of which is that it "operates based on locally available > information". Hence... Besides, if you know your Einstein (or Riemann, or > Minkowsky) even a little bit you will recognize that one of the prime > reasons for the development of a geometric interpretation of physics is the > need to have a solid theory not reliant on instantaneous transfer of > information ("local"). My interpretation is not unreasonable at all, > considering the alternatives. Wanna drop it? :-) Certainly not. AFAIK, RAH has always used "geodesic" in conjuction with "settlement", which clearly says to me that he's talking about the quickest/easiest way to do money transfer. You may, or may not, achieve that with distributed systems, but so what? And, to hit relativity, for completeness, geodesic in that sense is about figuring out curvature. That is, knowing all geodesics tells you the shape of space-time. And, natch, light follows geodesics, which is the glue that holds it all together (and brings in your non-instaneous transfer, too, but again, that is neither a consequence of, nor a requirement for, geodesics). > >Saying that it has anything to do with distributed systems is making it > >up as you go along. > > Ain't everybody? I'm taking the fifth on that one. > >And if RAH is now going to claim that's what he meant then he's making > >it up as he goes along, too (well, we knew that anyway, but redefining > >geodesic in this way is going too far). > > It's good to know you're hip to this. Like, yeah, daddy-o. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From rah at shipwright.com Tue Dec 12 17:52:06 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:52:06 -0500 Subject: DCSB: Chuck Wade; ACH in Internet Payment Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 29 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ben at algroup.co.uk Tue Dec 12 12:54:26 2000 From: ben at algroup.co.uk (Ben Laurie) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:54:26 +0000 Subject: Questions of size... References: <3A367FBF.7009025A@algroup.co.uk> Message-ID: <3A369082.43BEB6A9@algroup.co.uk> Tim May wrote: > > At 7:42 PM +0000 12/12/00, Ben Laurie wrote: > >Sampo A Syreeni wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: > >> > >> >Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two > >> >points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. > >> > >> No question about it. The term also doesn't mean a whole lot when applied > >> as-is in the many instances it is on this list. As Tim put it, it pretty > >> much equates to "cyberpunkish". > > > >Not being subscribed to cypherpunks (has S/R improved?) I will have > >missed that. > > Signal happens when good writers contribute good articles. Noise > happens in the expected ways. Noise is what the delete key, and > filters, were made for. Hmm. So, please send me your noise filter. I could do with one. > As you are apparently reading this from the "DBS" list, you are not > seeing any of my contributions. Regrettfully, DBS (and DCSB, or > Bearebucks, or whatever Bob is calling his list(s)) is not an "open > system." The Cypherpunks tried such a censored list a few years ago, > and we rejected the approach. The list I'm writing to is not censored, AFAIK. > I wrote a large article debunking the "geodesics is about topology" > point of view. Others have said similar things. Actually, they're really about geometry, though there are some kinds of topology which can support geodesics (not the standard rubber-sheet kind most people are familiar with, though). For example, a graph can support the notion of a shortest distance between two points, and that is definitely a topological entity. > Please don't contribute articles to the Cypherpunks list if you are, > as you say, not subscribed. While we don't reject articles by > nonsubscribers, as per the above, it is tacky and rude for > nonsubscribers to address articles to lists they are not tracking. This is an email, not an article. Is it tacky and rude to copy to a list to which you'd prefer I didn't reply? I think so. Is it polite to include all recipients in a mail to which you reply? I think so. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From msbabydoll at mail.com Tue Dec 12 18:29:09 2000 From: msbabydoll at mail.com (msbabydoll at mail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 00 21:29:09 EST Subject: This is going to be HUGE!!! Message-ID: <200012130422.MAA04799@public.jninfo.net.cn> Hi There, If you're an aspiring internet entrepreneur, then you've got to STOP whatever you're doing and check this out! I'm successfully involved in a number of online businesses, but NOTHING comes even remotly close to this! This concept is "Rocking The Internet To It's Core! I want to let you in on a business that is already being hailed as"The Next AOL".... "Bigger Than Yahoo".... "The Ultimate Business Package".... For a limited time you have the option to join for FREE right now! Your earnings potential can only be described as AWESOME! The initial results have been simply staggering!! For Full, Free Details, just click on the link below and then press send/mail.mailto: msbabyboo at mail.com?subject=PleaseSendDetails Your future will be delivered to your inbox within seconds! Every moment you delay will cost you money! Over 8,000 people have joined in the last 4 days alone! This is going to be HUGE!!! Don't miss the boat! Kind Regards Alexandra Thomas This Message was Composed using Extractor Pro '98 Bulk E- Mail Software. If you wish to be removed from this advertiser's future mailings, please reply with the subject "Remove" and this software will automatically block you from their future mailings.____________________ From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 12 21:50:02 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 21:50:02 -0800 Subject: Privacy is another victim of the war on (some) drugs In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001211111025.01510030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001212215002.009efc00@idiom.com> At 11:10 AM 12/11/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40532,00.html > Privacy a Victim of the Drug War by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 2:00 a.m. Dec. 11, 2000 PST (.... noticing the timestamp ...) > They got even. Edmond and Palmer filed a federal lawsuit claiming the > drug-stop violated the Constitution's rule against unreasonable > searches, and the Supreme Court recently agreed with them in a 6-3 > ruling. It's pleasant to see the court doing the right thing on occasion. > By last year, the vast majority of the wiretaps had become > narcotics-related: 978 of 1,350, according to government figures. The majority of non-drug-related wiretaps have been for gambling investigations, another ban on consensual behavior which encourages police invasion of privacy because the participants don't have an incentive to report violations. >John Gilmore adds: >> I doubt that ALL privacy invasion has been engendered by the >> War on Drugs. Definitely not - the invasion of privacy engendered by taxation far exceeds that from the War on Drugs. It's primarily violation of Fifth Amendment issues rather than Fourth Amendment, and invades the individual's interactions with other people rather than focusing on their state of mind and body, but it's a much higher volume and much more pervasive invasion. In particular, it leads to large databases of information on individuals and businesses, requires businesses to maintain their own large databases on individuals, and requires huge expenditures of effort on tracking and reducing taxes by people who could otherwise be engaged in productive activities. And the power to tax is used to extend government control into areas that would otherwise not have legal justifications - confiscatory marijuana taxes were the beginning of drug prohibition, car taxes are used to require license plates and car registration which are then used to track and control people's movement. Medical privacy has been largely eroded by government health care insurance and regulations requiring common identifiers for databases (SSNs) and centralized decision-making, and also by insurance companies which are largely shaped by the taxation-driven market for employer-provided medical insurance. >>The Internet has produced a major privacy problem by >>making previously hard-to-access or hard-to-correlate records readily >>available; search engines have been co-conspirators with the WWW >>inventors in building easy cross-indexes. I'd attribute the correlation issues more to the rapidly decreasing costs of computers and storage than to the communications capabilities. They're obviously overlapping, but even clumsy systems like SNA and magnetic tapes by overnight mail were sufficient for business information sharing to reach critical mass a decade ago, before the internet explosion, and to some extent even in the 60s and 70s when our privacy was beginning to be bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated. For example, credit-card transactions and check scanning generally don't use the Internet - check scanning is a computer/optics/storage problem, and modems or SNA networks are enough for credit cards, and also for buying credit reports on customers. The big differences the Internet has made, besides fueling the growth in computer power affordability, have been in reducing the costs of correlation by small organizations, allowing the decentralization of privacy invasion. This will have a lot of unforeseen implications; it may also have foreseen implications, with authors such as Brin and Vinge exploring possibilities. >>The drug war-crime makes big problems for whatever lives or policies >>it touches, and it has certainly had a big negative impact on privacy. >>We would all have much more privacy rights if the drug war had never >>happened. Restoring those rights after we end the drug war is going >>to be a 50-year project. Hear, hear. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From auto110413 at hushmail.com Tue Dec 12 22:06:10 2000 From: auto110413 at hushmail.com (auto110413 at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:06:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: My short writeup of the NymIP effort Message-ID: <200012131753.JAA20948@user7.hushmail.com> Now I�m confused � REALLY confused. For a second there, I thought ZKS was actually executing a turnaround to become a �real� privacy company, what with their recent repositioning towards �managed privacy services� and all. Companies out there need privacy solutions, and the field is wide open for the taking right now.. There aren�t many other companies out there with shipping products for the enterprise space yet .. in addition to ZKS (which I�m not sure if they REALLY have a product for the enterprise space? although they seem to like to talk about it??) there�s PrivacyRight and Privada out in California, and then that�s about it.. and from what I can tell, the enterprise market is more than large enough for 3 companies right now.. I mean, if ZKS ever got their head screwed on right (read: fired Austin Hill??), they MIGHT stand a sliver of a chance of actually making some money -- But NOW, ZKS turns around and pulls a �NymIP� project for the IETF? What does this have to do w/ anything? (or at least, what does it have to do w/ the ZKS repositioning to become a genuine privacy company?) It seems this has more in line w/ what I�ve been saying all along: the ZKS is really a free speech company, not a privacy company. I�ve perused the (so far short) NymIP mailing lists and even the members agree that the NymIP project shares more in common w/ Fling (http://fling.sourceforge.net/), a free-speech system for the Internet, than it does w/ anything privacy related.. First, I�ll go over all the obvious technical flaws w/ NymIP. For this protocol to have any practical applicability, we have to believe the ZKS mantra that IP addresses somehow represents �personally identifiable information� (PII) that is highly sensitive, and therefore must be encrypted� We are asked to believe, in other words, that 1 IP address < == > 1 person.. Notwithstanding the obvious fact that today 60% of the Internet population logs on through AOL where 10,000 users share one IP address at the same time, I�d like to ask the NymIP team what they plan to do once IPv6 is rolled out?? The 1 IP address < == > 1 person concept is highly tenuous under IPv4, and altogether laughable under IPv6.. Reading of the Goals of NymIP draft, the project lacks clear definition � apparently they want to throw a bunch of academics in a room and see if they can come up w/ some vacuous concept called �controlled nymity� (< - - what the hell does that mean??) all w/o attempting to set any concrete benchmarks or milestones? The draft also stresses PKI.. I�m wondering how much trust ZKS in general places in PKI? Have they read Schneier�s 10 risks of PKI?: http://www.counterpane.com/pki-risks-ft.txt You have to wonder about IETF adoption too .. I checked out the agenda for the San Diego meeting and there is no mention of NymIP: http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-49.html Also, just run through the standards that the IETF really does back: LDAP, Kerberos, IP telephony, VoIP, IPSec, and on and on.. these are real applications for have real business uses for enterprises and individuals. That�s why they have the support of the IEFT.. Where�s the �real� use for nyms? How many people have downloaded Freedom and are using? (I never see anyone I know on the Internet using @freedom.net addresses..) How many businesses are using ZKS? (if in fact they even have a product for businesses?) If nyms were a �real� thing, technologically + economically, they would have happened by now, but they haven�t.. (YES � I�m using a nym to write this email, but I don�t use one nym to purchase computer books on Amazon, use a different nym to buy porno books on Amazon, etc.. and THAT is the economic reality that would have to be occurring for ZKS-style nyms to have any real traction � yet it does NOT occur..) What irritates me more than anything about ZKS is their belief that cryptography can solve all the worlds privacy problems.. any sophisticated security professional will tell you that cryptography barely solves any security problems, and although good privacy starts w/ good security (since w/o security, information will tend to leak around where you don�t want it to), privacy is vastly more complex than security.. 10 years ago you had people like Schneier talking about the role of cryptography in security. Since then, these people have moved beyond the algorithms and protocols, into the products, then into the policies and procedures, and today you have people like Schneier basically advising companies to just buy insurance to cover computer security risks � after all, the whole security game is just a risk management game, and what better way to manage risk than via insurance? But at ZKS, they�re still living in a world where cryptography solves everything, completely ignoring the human element.. (which is really the most important) (and while we're on the subject on cryptography, what exactly is wrong w/ SSL? And don't tell me that SSL still lets you see IP addresses (perfectly in line w/ the TCP/IP spec) b/c that has NOTHING to do w/ privacy) When I look for the �human� element in a company, I look to the marketing department � it�s the job of these guys to make sure that what the company is working on actually HAS a market. As soon as I heard about the NymIP project, my gut instinct was to fire the marketing VP over at ZKS � it was like, this is the last straw � the company has completely failed to position itself as ANYTHING. First you�re selling this thingie called Freedom that is supposed to protect privacy but of course doesn�t, then you�re transitioning into the enterprise space, but you still leave 100 engineers working on Freedom on payroll, and then you start talking about being a consulting company even though PriceWaterhouseCooper will be better than you because they have actually broadened their knowledge base beyond �crypto-anarchy� and you haven�t and you then have Stefan Brands do a dog and pony show about building privacy into PKI, w/ applications in m-commerce, e-commerce, electronic voting, location-based services, age/gender verification, DRM, identity management and frequent flier miles (< -- NONE OF WHICH, by the way, are anything that any of the previously mentioned ZKS units are focusing on) and finally you come FULL CIRCLE and decide that you�re going to work on this NymIP thing, which most closely resembled your initial Freedom product, which is actually a free speech thingie anyway and not a privacy thingie.. Wow � NO FUCKING FOCUS.. and they must be burning at least $2.5 mil every month w/ basically nothing to show in revenues (I�m guessing Freedom just isn�t the cash cow they though it might be?? I mean, how many people do I see on the Internet using @freedom.net addresses??) But, back to what I was talking about � I was about to recommend firing their marketing VP when I looked at their Web site and realized ZKS HAS NO MARKETING VP!! Then I thought: THAT�S THE PROBLEM!! Most �modern� high tech companies believe in the mantra that your customers drive your business, and will hire a marketing VP usually as employee, say, #3 or #4 so that he can go out and validate that there really IS a market for what you are proposing.. if not, it�s back to the drawing board until you CAN find some customers somewhere for what you�re peddling.. Apparently ZKS does not choose to operate in this manner (listen to customers, ship products to market, etc..) And that�s when I realized they likely have no marketing VP b/c it�s impossible to market a product as crappy as Freedom! Catch22.. In Silicon Valley, most VCs will not fund a company w/ market validation and w/o a marketing VP.. apparently this does not hold true in Canada.. I guess in the end, do I really care that much that I�m surfing anonymously? Do I really care that much that I�m surfing w/ a non-encrypted IP address? (this is, after all, how TCP/IP was designed to work). I�m still SEARCHING for a business case here.. SOMEBODY HELP ME.. If I fill out a form and engage in a commercial transaction, then yes I want all that and related information to remain private (between me and the merchant), but does this really mean that I want all my info hidden from the merchant (maybe I�m a sucker for frequent flier miles) and does it mean that I�ll swim against the flow and drop $30 million++ into trying to redesign TCP/IP from the ground up so it has anonymity built-in?? Declan � btw I appreciate the fact that your blurb in Wired about NymIP makes no mention of the word �privacy� � I think it�s incredibly important that the concept of �privacy� be divorced from the concept of �anonymity� in the popular media (where oftentimes these two concepts blur together into one..) .. they are clearly not even remotely similar.. And don�t get me wrong � I firmly believe the Internet should have an �anonymous safe haven�, so to speak, if only for free speech if nothing else � however, I have serious problems w/ a privacy company attempting to deliver on this, since it�s technically impossible, economically unmanageable and ultimately only confuses the an already befuddled marketplace (quite severely, in fact..).. >http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40582,00.html > > Devising Invisible Ink > by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) > 2:00 a.m. Dec. 9, 2000 PST > > WASHINGTON -- An ambitious effort to protect online anonymity > will kick off this weekend. > > A working group of about a dozen technologists, called NymIP, is > gathering before the Internet Engineering Task Force's meeting to take > the very first steps toward devising a standard that will foster > untraceable communications and Web browsing for Internet users. 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This message is sent in compliance of the new E-mail bill, SECTION 301, Paragraph (a) (2)(C) of S.1618.Transmissions to you by the sender of this email will be stopped promptly by sending an e-mail with REMOVE in the subject line to: easysuccess2000 at yahoo.com Thank you From 73614530 at 18608.com Tue Dec 12 21:20:59 2000 From: 73614530 at 18608.com (AOL Busters) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 00 00:20:59 EST Subject: THIS IS HUGE! WATCH OUT AOL Message-ID: <200012130522.NAA29199@scgb.com> 'America On Line Watch Out" You now have the opportunity to enroll FOR FREE in a new online community that PAYS YOU TO BE A MEMBER and were not talking peanuts. THIS IS NOT MLM or NETWORK MARKETING!!!!! How does $10,000 a month sound just for using their community? There is a new sheriff coming to town and their focus is to be bigger and better than AOL. This brand new community is coming out in about 30 days. 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This message is sent in compliance of the new E-mail bill, SECTION 301, Paragraph (a) (2)(C) of S.1618.Transmissions to you by the sender of this email will be stopped promptly by sending an e-mail with REMOVE in the subject line to: easysuccess2000 at yahoo.com Thank you From CindysP at cs.net Wed Dec 13 05:32:38 2000 From: CindysP at cs.net (CindysP at cs.net) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:32:38 Subject: stock picker Message-ID: <170.436959.77400@cs.net> Have you ever wondered if you can make money in the stock market. Let us send you a free video. Simple system explains how to get wealthy in the stock market. Do you know that MCI is at its low for the year. YES MCI the giant long distance company. Do you think MCI is going out of business. I dont think so! Thousands have paid $99 for this video now its available free. www.gethotstocks.bigstep.com FREE VIDEO / Learn how simple and predictable the stock market is. Stock brokers never tell there clients about these proven systems for investing. Protect a portfolio against adverse price changes profit by making slight adjustments. www.gethotstocks.bigstep.com INCLUDE ALL INFORMATION TO GET THE VIDEO! Name: Address: Phone: Email www.gethotstocks.bigstep.com If you wish to be removed please send mail to removeme at 2251.com Message is sent in compliance. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 13 05:34:15 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:34:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Privacy is another victim of the war on (some) drugs In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001212215002.009efc00@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > >John Gilmore adds: > > >> I doubt that ALL privacy invasion has been engendered by the > >> War on Drugs. > > Definitely not - the invasion of privacy engendered by taxation > far exceeds that from the War on Drugs. It's primarily violation > of Fifth Amendment issues rather than Fourth Amendment, Actually taxation, war on drugs, etc. violate the 1st primarily, the other amendments only get broken as a secondary action. Why? They violate the right to choose that is guaranteed in the 1st. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Wed Dec 13 06:23:45 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:23:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cool. If there are no objections I'll add this to the CDR homepage at SSZ. I'd like to suggest you add another advantage to email, mobile access through mechanisms like packet radio. With respect to the 'CDR like' comments, can you better explain how this works? Who does one contact? What sort of scripting is required? You also might want to reduce the default resend period on this list if possible. The 4 day normal for sendmail might be problematic. Set it to something like 1 day. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, BMM wrote: > I would like to announce the "secret-admirers" mail list. > > The "secret-admirers" list is intended to function in a manner similar > to the well-known Usenet newsgroup "alt.anonymous.messages". This > newsgroup serves as a dead drop for communications in which the recipient > wishes to remain unknown. > > While access to a Usenet news server is unavailable in many environments, > the ubiquity and flexibility of e-mail may be advantageous for the > following reasons: > > - Penetration: More people having access to (pseudo|ano)nymizing tools > is generally a good thing. > - Pool Size: Higher utilization of the message pool may frustrate > traffic analysis. The list may be gatewayed back into > alt.anonymous.messages or vice versa. CDR-like > nodes for redistribution may be established to reduce > load on individual nodes. > - Filtering: E-mail filtering tools are widely available, allowing > recipients to draw only pertinent messages from the > pool by filtering on tokens which have been negotiated > out-of-band or by the public key to which a message has > been encrypted. > > The mail list is unmoderated and accepts messages from any submitter. > Submissions may be sent to "secret-admirers at minder.net" or > "sa at minder.net". > > TO SUBSCRIBE to the list, send a message with "subscribe secret-admirers" > in the body to majordomo at minder.net. The more subscribers, the better, > even if procmail just sends it to /dev/null. > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from the list, send a message with "unsubscribe > secret-admirers" to majordomo at minder.net. > > A digest of this list is available. This list is not currently archived. From bmm at minder.net Wed Dec 13 05:39:08 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:39:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list Message-ID: I would like to announce the "secret-admirers" mail list. The "secret-admirers" list is intended to function in a manner similar to the well-known Usenet newsgroup "alt.anonymous.messages". This newsgroup serves as a dead drop for communications in which the recipient wishes to remain unknown. While access to a Usenet news server is unavailable in many environments, the ubiquity and flexibility of e-mail may be advantageous for the following reasons: - Penetration: More people having access to (pseudo|ano)nymizing tools is generally a good thing. - Pool Size: Higher utilization of the message pool may frustrate traffic analysis. The list may be gatewayed back into alt.anonymous.messages or vice versa. CDR-like nodes for redistribution may be established to reduce load on individual nodes. - Filtering: E-mail filtering tools are widely available, allowing recipients to draw only pertinent messages from the pool by filtering on tokens which have been negotiated out-of-band or by the public key to which a message has been encrypted. The mail list is unmoderated and accepts messages from any submitter. Submissions may be sent to "secret-admirers at minder.net" or "sa at minder.net". TO SUBSCRIBE to the list, send a message with "subscribe secret-admirers" in the body to majordomo at minder.net. The more subscribers, the better, even if procmail just sends it to /dev/null. TO UNSUBSCRIBE from the list, send a message with "unsubscribe secret-admirers" to majordomo at minder.net. A digest of this list is available. This list is not currently archived. Thanks, -Brian -- bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Dec 13 08:56:34 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:56:34 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A3752D6.5213A7CB@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> -- James A. Donald > > If morality is merely relative, then what is wrong with murdering > > a few million jews, kulaks, or people as irritating as James A. > > Donald? All a matter of perspective, isn't it? At 11:43 AM 12/13/2000 +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: > example: killing 1 million. jews is evil, because - because of what? > there's a lot of "becauses", I notice you imply that the Nazi liquidation of the Jews has been wildly exaggerated. Killing several million Jews is murderous because killing Jews merely for being Jewish is like killing me, therefore someone who liquidates the Jews is likely to kill me, someone who favors rendering society Jew free is likely to kill me if he had the power. Similarly anyone who thinks that Stalin was too soft on the kulaks (read the various commie criticisms of Stalin) would certainly kill me if he had the power, for the same reasons as he would kill the kulaks. > but none of them works without a subjective set of ethics. Bullshit. > you won't find a "because" that has the structure of, say, a > mathematical proof. You cannot prove that iron is iron with the structure of a mathematical proof, because it is a fact about the world, and empirical fact, ultimately resting on the evidence of the senses. To deduce the necessary "because", one must start from the nature of man, and the nature of the world. James A. Donald: > > The reason we define certain killings as murder is not because > > "the bible tells us so", but because we want to know if a killing > > indicates that the killer is apt to kill murderously. > > > > Similarly we observe that one deed, and one man, is like another, > > and another unlike, and we call one such group of men and deeds > > "evil", "evil" > being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. Tom Vogt: > you are changing the meaning of "we" without noticing it. in the 2nd > paragraph, "we" means pretty much everyone. in the third, "we" is > much smaller. for example, the nazis would certainly have agreed to > calling iron "eisen" (the german word for "iron"). however, they > didn't call the mass murdering of jews that. Then they were wrong, just as they would have been wrong had they called iron copper. And evidence that they were wrong is that a great many of them died of that error, for nazis killed more nazis than they did commies, just as the commies killed more commies than they did nazis, something that anyone could have foreseen had he recognized that killing Jews was murder, that killing capitalists for being capitalists was murder. The Nazi claim was that the killing of Jews was not indicative of a propensity to murder Aryans. The commie claim was that killing of capitalists was not indicative of a propensity to murder proletarians. These claims, of course, were false, because killing Jews capriciously, or because they were Jews, or killing capitalists capriciously or because they were capitalists, is in fact morally similar to killing anyone whimsically and capriciously, is in fact murder. Not "deemed to be murder". Not "socially constructed as murder". It really is murder, really is capricious and unreasonable killing, and hence it really is indicative of propensity to kill people capriciously, which is why we feel about murder as we do, feel that it is wrong. If the nature of man and the world was what you imagine it to be, if it was true that killing Jews was not indicative of propensity to kill Aryans, then Trotsky's "their morals and ours" would be right and I would be wrong; Hobbes in "Leviathan" would be right and I would be wrong. The evidence however is that I am right and you are wrong, that I am right and Trotsky is wrong, that I am right and Hobbes is wrong, that I am right and Hitler was wrong The evidence is that killing Jews is like killing me, that killing witches is like killing me, that killing capitalists is like killing me. Not "socially constructed as like killing me". Really like killing me. James A. Donald: > > They crossed the "is ought gap" without the slightest difficulty, > > and so does everyone else except for monsters and philosophers. I > > find it striking that many of the philosophers who have such great > > difficulty with this alleged gap have some connection to monstrous > > regimes. Not all of them by any means, but most of them. Tom Vogt > that's because they are so readily abused by them. almost everyone > is prone to not listening to what someone else really has to say, > but to draw conclusions quickly. go into any anti-nazi newsgroup and > argue a careful position, ask for evidence and draw conclusions only > from facts. want to make a bet on how long it takes until you're > called a nazi? I observe the contrary -- that people who go into anti Nazi newsgroups and purport to argue a careful position that the Jews were not murdered, or at least no very many of them, and anyway they had it coming, are generally not called nazis by most people, even though they quite obviously are nazis. Same goes, even more strongly, for commies, even those who loudly announce that they reject Lenin and Stalin, and then proceed to argue that Lenin and Stalin were softies, that they failed to suppress capitalism with sufficient vigor. > they spoken not to their own people, but to the people of serbia, > they could not have "crossed the gap [between is and ought" with > such ease. The people of Serbia were wrong to vote fascists into power, though US intervention saved them from themselves, so they did not discover for themselves the consequences. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG r1v0E/KCznABDLa6ZzZMz0HCCjkL5oqcH5T5Lrjp 4gqox4cUDyE8NirpaFKg+VDudBY74EaZWjv4VAldo From declan at well.com Wed Dec 13 06:12:24 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:12:24 -0500 Subject: Only one horseman left! Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001213091148.028cef00@mail.well.com> today in dc: HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE Foreign Threats Crime Subcommittee hearing on the threat posed by the convergence of organized crime, drug trafficking and terrorism. 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A: NO, In fact grants are not based on your credit. It is not a loan, even the unemployed receive grants. Q: What is the average grant amount awarded? A: $1,000.00 to 10,000.00 is average, but it depends on what the grant will be used for. Businesses that benefit the communities have been awarded $100,000 to millions in grant money. Don't Delay, This Is A Limited Time Offer At This Amazing Low Price! Get That Grant Now, Before College Rush Time Comes! This mailing is done by an independent marketing co. We apologize if this message has reached you in error. Save the Planet, Save the Trees! Advertise via E mail. No wasted paper! Delete with one simple keystroke! Less refuse in our Dumps! This is the new way of the new millennium! To be removed, please visit site From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 13 09:44:34 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:44:34 -0800 Subject: This is why HTML email is evil. In-Reply-To: <3A3797CE.92BAB413@sunder.net> References: <3A3797CE.92BAB413@sunder.net> Message-ID: At 10:37 AM -0500 12/13/00, sunder wrote: >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15423.html > >"For a very sweet dirty trick along those lines, one could embed a >link to a porn picture on-line, resized at 1x1 so it's invisible >in the e-mail. Network logs will show that a given employee >requested, say, preteen_bestial.gif from >www.loathsome-sex-offenders.com. Even better, if the company has >spyware in place, the jack-booted network thugs won't even have to >be notified by the trickster before grassing him out to senior management." > Practically speaking, an employee who had only this 1x1 tracking pic in his e-mail could probably make a good defense. Unless his employer was looking for _any_ excuse to fire him, the lack of an actual, viewable picture or message from him acknowledging the content...probably would get him off the hook. On the other hand, the U.S. is moving toward having schools and employers adopt mechanistic "zero tolerance" policies. In recent cases, merely having a tiny GIF of a gun is enough to have a child suspended and parents sentenced to "counseling." (Note that "counseling" and "political re-education" are the same thing.) In a free society, free economy, then employers and employees are much more flexible. A solid contributor would not be fired for something so trivial as having a porn picture embedded in some minor way. Hell, a solid contributor probably wouldn't be fired even for sending MPEG porn movies to his buddies! But we are not in a free society, are we? We are in a legal environment where some on-the-rag Personnel Dept. bimbo can decide to "make an example" of some shlub engineer who is caught clicking on Danni's Hot Box after work. The shlub's manager probably can't do anything except beg that both he and his subordinate be sent to 6 weeks of sensitivity training. If the bitch is feeling in control, she may assent to this. If not, or if the company fears being sued by offended employees or others, the shlub will be fired and the manager alone will be sent in for an ideological tune-up. The Thought Policeman Inside. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.) From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Wed Dec 13 06:45:03 2000 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:45:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Important Membership Information Message-ID: <200012131445.JAA23036@web80t.lga2.nytimes.com> Dear cypherpunsl2132, Welcome to NYTimes.com! We are delighted that you have decided to become a member of our community. As a member you now have complete access to the Web's premier source for news and information -- free of charge. NYTimes.com not only provides you with in-depth coverage of events happening around the world but also with a wealth of additional features and services. The site is updated regularly throughout the day by New York Times reporters and editors to give you greater insight into events unfolding throughout the day. No matter what the hour, you can look to NYTimes.com for the most trustworthy coverage available and unique perspective you won't find anywhere else. Please feel free to explore the other areas of NYTimes.com. Here are some starting points you may find useful: ** Get NYTimes.com headlines e-mailed directly to you. Choose from the day's top stories, breaking news alerts and your favorite sections: http://email.nytimes.com/email/email.jsp?welcome ** Search and retrieve articles from The New York Times Archives back to 1996. Searches and summaries of articles are free, but there is a small fee for full text. http://archives.nytimes.com/archives?welcome ** Explore the Help Wanted and other classified listings on the Web: http://www.nytimes.com/jobmarket/?welcome ** Get a free photo screensaver from The New York Times Photo Archives Choose from Vintage New York, Americana, Coney Island and more: http://www.nytimes.com/partners/screensaver/index.html?welcome ** Search our archive of 50,000 book reviews, listen to author interviews or sign-up for an exclusive weekly newsletter from our Books Editor: http://www.nytimes.com/books/home?welcome Thank you again for becoming a member. We hope that you will make a point of visiting the site often. Sincerely, Rich Meislin, Editor in Chief New York Times Digital P.S. Your opinions are important to us. 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From bmm at minder.net Wed Dec 13 06:58:35 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:58:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jim, By CDR-like, I meant that it might be useful to grow the list in a manner similar to the cypherpunks list in order both to protect against SPoF as well as to distribute load (alt.anonymous.messages is pretty high-traffic - even compared to cypherpunks). How nodes would connect is TBD. Most CDR admins have rolled their own method of doing this. Thanks, -Brian -- bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > With respect to the 'CDR like' comments, can you better explain how this > works? Who does one contact? What sort of scripting is required? > > You also might want to reduce the default resend period on this list if > possible. The 4 day normal for sendmail might be problematic. Set it to > something like 1 day. > > On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, BMM wrote: > > > I would like to announce the "secret-admirers" mail list. > > > > The "secret-admirers" list is intended to function in a manner similar > > to the well-known Usenet newsgroup "alt.anonymous.messages". This > > newsgroup serves as a dead drop for communications in which the recipient > > wishes to remain unknown. > > > > While access to a Usenet news server is unavailable in many environments, > > the ubiquity and flexibility of e-mail may be advantageous for the > > following reasons: > > > > - Penetration: More people having access to (pseudo|ano)nymizing tools > > is generally a good thing. > > - Pool Size: Higher utilization of the message pool may frustrate > > traffic analysis. The list may be gatewayed back into > > alt.anonymous.messages or vice versa. CDR-like > > nodes for redistribution may be established to reduce > > load on individual nodes. > > - Filtering: E-mail filtering tools are widely available, allowing > > recipients to draw only pertinent messages from the > > pool by filtering on tokens which have been negotiated > > out-of-band or by the public key to which a message has > > been encrypted. > > > > The mail list is unmoderated and accepts messages from any submitter. > > Submissions may be sent to "secret-admirers at minder.net" or > > "sa at minder.net". > > > > TO SUBSCRIBE to the list, send a message with "subscribe secret-admirers" > > in the body to majordomo at minder.net. The more subscribers, the better, > > even if procmail just sends it to /dev/null. > > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from the list, send a message with "unsubscribe > > secret-admirers" to majordomo at minder.net. > > > > A digest of this list is available. This list is not currently archived. > > From declan at well.com Wed Dec 13 07:11:44 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:11:44 -0500 Subject: CDR:Re: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting.. In-Reply-To: ; from rguerra@yahoo.com on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 11:17:15PM -0500 References: <464922.976449529@hse-toronto-ppp261959.sympatico.ca> <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: <20001213101144.A3798@cluebot.com> Different standards aren't necessarily bad either. Local jurisdictions have a substantial amount of leeway in ballot design in Florida, which, Democratic partisan protests notwithstanding, is probably a reasonable thing. In other areas of the law, they have the opportunity to craft laws and rules that are more suitable to their area of the country. Local control and competition among different standards set by different local communities generally is a good thing. If nothing else, it's the way the U.S. political system was set up to work. -Declan On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 11:17:15PM -0500, Robert Guerra wrote: > In article <001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0 at golem>, "Me" > wrote: > > > is there any benefit to the 'canadian system' above it's lack of > > lawyers? > > Having a plethora of different standards sure doesn't help.. > In Canada, and other countries there is a uniform ballot across the > country..something that hopefully will be introduced into the USA real > soon. > > > i dont see why any of these methods are inherently > > better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. > > Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting chads on punch > card ballots > > > speaking of canadian elections, its too bad the canadian alliance > > didnt get elected and revoke bill c-68 g, eh? > > Polls before the election were correct and the alliance didn't win. 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There is a catch-YOU need to FOLLOW THROUGH to make it work.There is little effort involved as it's not something for nothing.If no one played the lottery or did the pools,the chemes wouldn't work.Most people are happy to spend a few pounds each week and KNOW they will NEVER win. Just follow through on this one and be a WINNER.Make it work for YOU and we will all reap rewards. Dear Friend My name is Sally Brooker.In December 1995 I lost my job when the company I was working for went out of business.The bills kept coming in and i found it increasingly hard to make ends meet.I was at my wits end.In January 1996 ,a good friend recieved a letter from a self made millionaire,David Rhodes from Norfolk,showing her how to earn #50,000 quickly and easily.My friend was very sceptical but by then i was really desperate so,as i had nothing to lose and everything to gain,i borrowed some money from my father and gave it a try. The response was beyond my wildest dreams.By March i had paid back all the borrowed money and had enough left to treat my parents to a holiday in Spain.In June,I bought a new car for CASH I have now earned over #280000 and have recently bought a new house.I am convinced i will become a millionaire in the next 12-18 months.This programme has worked perfectly every time and I HAVE NEVER FAILED TO RECIEVE AT LEAST #50,000 FROM EACH MAILING. This is a legitimate business opportunity :an absolute legal money making programme. It requires no selling or special skills and best of all you only need to leave home to post a few letters.If you belive that some day YOUR DREAMS WILL COME TRUE and you'll be the one to get that lucky break then simply read and follow the instructions below.IT REALLY DOES WORK. FOLLOW THESE NEST FIVE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY WITHIN SIXTY DAYS AND YOU WILL RECIEVE AT LEAST #50,000 CASH 1). Immediately send #1 coin to each of the seven names below.Sellotape the #1 coins inside some folded cards with your name address and postcode clearly written and the instructions "please add my name to your mailing list" and seal these cards inside envelopes for security purposes.This is a legitimate business service for which you are paying seven people the sum of #1 each. 1.G Bishop 19 Strathalmond Park Edinburgh,Lothian EH4 8AJ 2.J.Weyland 3 Kent Road Rusholme Manchester M14 5RF 3.S.khadim 30 Cawdor Road Fallowfields Manchester 4.K Smith 60 Park Lea Bradley Huddersfield HD2 1QH 5.A Hayyat 23 Holly Court room 166 oak house manchester m14 6hx 6.F.Brighton 23 Wharfedale Runcorn Chesire WA7 6PS 7 K.B SYKES 4 Cowlersley Lane Huddersfield HD4 5TY 2) Remove the name from position 1 on the list and move all the other names up one place,so that number 2 become number 1 and so on.Then insert your name and address in position 7.Now all you need to do is email this to all your friends or send out letters to a mailing list.It is not necessary to pay for printing in order to do this,this can be done easily by typing or printing the seven names and addresses on a strip of paper and gluing it over the existing names and addresses before photocopying or if you have a computer before retyping. 3) Photocopy or print 200 or more double sided copies of this letter (or use email whichever seems easier) which now has your name in position 7.(TIP the more you send the more you will earn). 4)(if using mail) Buy a list of 200 or more "opportuniy seekers" on self adhesive labels from a mailing list company.Some are listed below and many others in Exchange & Mart, Yellow Pages, Sunday Papers etc Links direct 23 lancaster drive titbury burton on trent staffs DE13 9LT 01283 815333 new horizons scope house weston road crewe chesire CW1 1DD 01270 250822 sharesv 24 tranmere crescent hatsham morecambe lancs LA3 2BD 01524 851245 imprint publishing 01320 340210 national mailing list 01246 290604 maple marketing 0181 8139868 MAKE SURE THE MAIL SHOT IS ON QUALITY LEADS BECAUSE THIS WILL AFFECT YOUR RESPONSE RATE Whle you are waiting for your mailing labels to arrive,your photocopied literature can be put in envelopes,sealed and stamps affixed.As soon as your labels arrive stick one to each envelope and post them to arrive on Friday or Saturday.The reason for this is because most people only like to look at things when they have time, which is invariably on the weekends Within 60 days you will recieve around #50,000 cash provided you have followed the instructions precisely.Keep a copy of this letter so that you can use it again whenever you need to make money. NOTE 1. As we are all just ordinary people seeking security,please play the game fairly.Be honest and do unto others as you would expect them to do unto you.That is do not try any short cuts or miss anything out. 2.As soon as you mail out these letters,you are automatically in the mail order business and people are sending you #1 to be placed on your mailing list.This is a service and is perfectly legal but you must send #1 to everyone on this list in order to make the contract and the mailing list legal. 3. You will only succeed if you follow the rules exactly,so please never break the rules. FACTORS THAT HOW DOES IT WORK When you mail out 200 letters or emails,at the modest response rate of 4% from your 200 letters/emails,8 people will send you #1.These people will send out their 200 letters (total 1600) and at the same rate 64 people will send you #1.These 64 people will send out their 200 letters (total 12,800 and so on) and at the 4% rate 512 people will send you #1.When these 512 people each send out 200 letters then a further 4,096 people will each send you #1.When 4,096 people send out 200 letters then an amxing 32,768 people will send you #1. That means a total of #299592 cash. Even if you only achieve the very poor response rate of 0.3% from your 200 letters,you will still recieve #55,986 cash at the end.However,when you obtain the truly realistic response rate of 5% you will actually recieve the staggering sum of over #1 million cash. David Rhodes and others exceeded 7.5% through a quality mailing list NOTHING VENTURED-NOTHING GAINED So read what two people who took the plunge have to say " About 10 months ago i recieved a letter from David Rhodes but instead of acting immediately i put it to one side and then lost it.Fortunately luck was on my side because a few weeks later this letter from Sally Brooker dropped through my letter box.This time i did it straight away but nothing happened for a couple of weeks.Then the money started rolling in and now im better off to the tune of #63,000.i recommend that you follow the instructions and have a go.I'm glad i did " "I am a sceptic by nature .i recieved at least 4 letters similar to this in the last nine months.However ,there was something different about this particular letter that caught my attention.It was down to earth,simple and honest.the intial cot is minimal and i also like the fact that all the participants recieved money,not just the person at the top of the list.I followed the instructions and sent off 7 #1 coins followed by 200 letters and hoped for the best.Nothing happened for the next 11 days then on the 12th day i recieved #48.by the end of the third week i recieved #609 but over the following 5 months i recieved a total of #131,879.I am going to do it again but this time i will send out 1000 letters.I know this sounds greedy ,but why not? " BUT REMEMBER THE GOLDEN RULE ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS-SO DO IT NOW!!! Please do not throw away this oppurtunity to make money.if you are still not interested then give this letter to someonne in need who may be unemployed so they can earn good money at home or share it with a friend.But why not do it yourself? What have you got to lose? Balanced against what you have to gain! Okay there's some effort involved so you have 2 choices-Do nothing ,Nothing will change! or do it and change everything! .Without casting a fishing line,how can you expect to catch a fish? So it is entirely up to you.Once again consider all the fact &factors and ask yourself "how genuine of an oppurtunity is it? AN OPPORTUNITY LIKE THIS HAPPENS ONCE IN A LIFETIME THE OUTLAY IS NEXT TO NOTHING-GIVE IT A TRY-YOU WILL BE AMAZED! YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT EVERYTHING TO GAIN. GOOD LUCK!!! if you think this message was sent in error or would like to be removed from the mailing list please reply with remove in the subject field From sunder at sunder.net Wed Dec 13 07:37:50 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:37:50 -0500 Subject: This is why HTML email is evil. Message-ID: <3A3797CE.92BAB413@sunder.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15423.html "For a very sweet dirty trick along those lines, one could embed a link to a porn picture on-line, resized at 1x1 so it's invisible in the e-mail. Network logs will show that a given employee requested, say, preteen_bestial.gif from www.loathsome-sex-offenders.com. Even better, if the company has spyware in place, the jack-booted network thugs won't even have to be notified by the trickster before grassing him out to senior management." -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 13 02:43:34 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:43:34 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A3752D6.5213A7CB@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > If morality is merely relative, then what is wrong with murdering a few > million jews, kulaks, or people as irritating as James A. Donald? All a > matter of perspective, isn't it? or indians, right? "the only good indian is a dead indian". all of our countries have a bloody past. some are just more recent than others. all were over before I was born, so they're all alike to me. as to your question: you are close. there are, of course, a lot of things wrong with killing any large number of any people. however, try describing one completely without adding a personal belief or ethic background. example: killing 1 mio. jews is evil, because - because of what? there's a lot of "becauses", but none of them works without a subjective set of ethics. you won't find a "because" that has the structure of, say, a mathematical proof. > > "evil" could, I believe, be *defined* as "the term pretty much > > everyone uses to describe his or her enemies". > > People who use this definition have a disturbing tendency to define entire > social groups, races, classes, as their enemies. I agree. > The reason we define certain killings as murder is not because "the bible > tells us so", but because we want to know if a killing indicates that the > killer is apt to kill murderously. > > In practice we notice that one piece of metal is like another, and other > kinds of metal unlike, and we call one such group of pieces of metal > "iron", "iron" being our word for that commonality that makes them > alike. The naming does not make it iron, but the character of the metal > itself. > > Similarly we observe that one deed, and one man, is like another, and > another unlike, and we call one such group of men and deeds "evil", "evil" > being our word for that commonality that makes them alike. you are changing the meaning of "we" without noticing it. in the 2nd paragraph, "we" means pretty much everyone. in the third, "we" is much smaller. for example, the nazis would certainly have agreed to calling iron "eisen" (the german word for "iron"). however, they didn't call the mass murdering of jews that. maybe that's because they were evil, but now you have a snake that's eating it's own tail, because you allow only people who are not evil to define what evil means. > They crossed the "is ought gap" without the slightest difficulty, and so > does everyone else except for monsters and philosophers. I find it > striking that many of the philosophers who have such great difficulty with > this alleged gap have some connection to monstrous regimes. Not all of > them by any means, but most of them. that's because they are so readily abused by them. almost everyone is prone to not listening to what someone else really has to say, but to draw conclusions quickly. go into any anti-nazi newsgroup and argue a careful position, ask for evidence and draw conclusions only from facts. want to make a bet on how long it takes until you're called a nazi? to the politicians: the point here is that they could expect (and were obviously right so) that the vast majority of readers has a very similiar definition of "evil" and other details of ethic background. had they spoken not to their own people, but to the people of serbia, they could not have "crossed the gap" with such ease. it's almost a shame that the cultural differences on the globe become smaller and smaller every year. today, if you want to find a really interesting example (people who think it's unacceptable to, say, eat in public) today, you have to refer to some almost-extinct tribe in the middle of somewhere nobody ever heard about. From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 13 02:45:52 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:45:52 +0100 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator References: Message-ID: <3A375360.4A1B00CD@ricardo.de> Tim May wrote: > Someone could make a little Perl or Python script to let the > computers do all the work. or reorganize the stuff into a square for a quick round of "cyperpunks buzzword bingo". :) From rsw at mit.edu Wed Dec 13 08:57:36 2000 From: rsw at mit.edu (Riad S. Wahby) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:57:36 -0500 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: ; from bmm@minder.net on Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 09:58:35AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001213115736.C26741@positron.mit.edu> BMM wrote: > By CDR-like, I meant that it might be useful to grow the list in a manner > similar to the cypherpunks list in order both to protect against SPoF as > well as to distribute load (alt.anonymous.messages is pretty high-traffic > - even compared to cypherpunks). How nodes would connect is TBD. Most > CDR admins have rolled their own method of doing this. Would it be useful to subscribe this list to random junk mail lists in order to reduce the SNR? Doing so, one could hide messages as random spam with ease. Perhaps this is only necessary as a startup transient measure, just to get the traffic on the list to the point where traffic analysis isn't trivial. -- Riad Wahby rsw at mit.edu MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105 From marco.bodina at inwind.it Wed Dec 13 03:06:25 2000 From: marco.bodina at inwind.it (marco.bodina at inwind.it) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:06:25 +0100 Subject: Informations Message-ID: I am writing a Thesys concernig e-banking and risk anda I'll be very pleasued if you can give me some sites to fisit to found some informations. Thank you Marco From bmm at minder.net Wed Dec 13 09:09:02 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:09:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: <20001213115736.C26741@positron.mit.edu> Message-ID: Sure. Maybe "sa at minder.net" is an address one should keep in mind when registering on the website of some company you don't particularly want to receive junk mail from. Donate your spam to a good cause! Thanks, -Brian -- bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Riad S. Wahby wrote: > BMM wrote: > > By CDR-like, I meant that it might be useful to grow the list in a manner > > similar to the cypherpunks list in order both to protect against SPoF as > > well as to distribute load (alt.anonymous.messages is pretty high-traffic > > - even compared to cypherpunks). How nodes would connect is TBD. Most > > CDR admins have rolled their own method of doing this. > > Would it be useful to subscribe this list to random junk mail lists in > order to reduce the SNR? Doing so, one could hide messages as random > spam with ease. > > Perhaps this is only necessary as a startup transient measure, just to > get the traffic on the list to the point where traffic analysis isn't > trivial. > > -- > Riad Wahby > rsw at mit.edu > MIT VI-2/A 2002 > > 5105 > From ultratrim2000 at aol.com Wed Dec 13 12:54:05 2000 From: ultratrim2000 at aol.com (ultratrim2000 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:54:05 Subject: FAST WEIGHT LOSS, GUARANTEED! Message-ID: <719.649612.488482@mail01.homeworkers23232.com> *****AMAZING MELT AWAY FAT ABSORBER CAPSULES***** LOSE 30 POUNDS IN 30 DAYS... GUARANTEED!!! All Natural Weight-Loss Program, Speeds Up The Metabolism Safely Rated #1 In Both Categories of SAFETY & EFFECTIVENESS In (THE USA TODAY) WE'LL HELP YOU GET THINNER IN WINTER!!! 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Shipping Name______________________________________________ Shipping Address___________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ Shipping City,State,Zip ___________________________________________________________ Country ___________________________________________________________ Email Address & Phone Number(Please Write Neat) From jf_avon at videotron.ca Wed Dec 13 09:59:13 2000 From: jf_avon at videotron.ca (JFA) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:59:13 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Roadside DNA Tests On Citizens Planned Message-ID: <200012131725.JAA25360@toad.com> http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=003986439041226&rtmo=aCau54uJ&atmo=rrrrrrrq&pg=/et/00/12/10/nkit10.html Electronic Telegraph, UK, Dec 10 2000 Roadside DNA tests planned By David Cracknell, Deputy Political Editor DRIVERS or other people stopped by police could be asked to supply on-the-spot hair or saliva samples to identify whether they are wanted criminals. Government scientists have developed a hand-held DNA testing kit to be carried and operated by police officers during regular patrols. The device would be electronically linked to the national DNA database, which Tony Blair has hailed as an essential tool in the fight against crime. The Forensic Science Service will disclose to Parliament this week that the equipment could be ready for standard use within a couple of years. The testing kit, which could become as common as the breathalyser or police baton, will dramatically cut the time it takes to match DNA evidence from crime scenes to suspects. It will raise fresh fears among civil liberties campaigners who believe that the pendulum has swung too far in the police's direction. Forensic scientists already expect that soon they will be able to use a single hair sample to discover a suspect's eye colour, facial characteristics, height and weight. They say that the next step will be portable testing kits that need little technical ability to operate. The FSS will give evidence to the House of Lords science and technology committee this week, telling peers that research on the kits is well advanced. It currently takes at least 48 hours to profile biological material collected from a crime scene, but the new kits could give police an instant lead if they were made standard issue. They would allow such tests to be carried out outside the laboratory for the first time. A spokesman for the FSS, which is a Government agency, said: "We feel that we have gone as far down the line as we can in terms of what a DNA profile can tell us about an individual and the next area we are looking at is speeding up the process." The Telegraph has seen written evidence to the Lords committee from one of the organisation's chief scientists, Dr Bob Bramley, and research documents. The committee began its inquiry after becoming concerned about the dramatic increase in the scale of DNA samples collected by the police. Earlier this year, the Prime Minister announced an extra £109 million for the expansion of the police's DNA database in Birmingham to include samples from "the entire active criminal population" - estimated to be around three million. The police have already collected nearly a million samples from those convicted of an offence that carries a prison sentence. Senior officers are now lobbying for changes in the law to allow further expansion of the database to include innocent people who volunteer to take part in mass screenings. Civil liberties campaigners are opposing any extension of the police's authority to to collect samples. They cite an official report which found that thousands of samples are being illegally held on the database because forces are failing to remove the records of acquitted suspects. John Wadham, the director of the human rights group Liberty, said: "The law already allows the unjustified collection of samples and we know that there are at least 50,000 being illegally held at the FSS database. This is not the time to relax the law." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3949 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Dec 13 14:40:44 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:40:44 -0800 Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7435@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: <3A37FAEC.97575407@lsil.com> > "Carskadden, Rush" wrote: > > Well, hell, that's what I said. > Well I'll be! I guess you did! > But you make it sound so much more > _clear_. I don't remember who was saying that geodesic definition is > based solely on local information, but that appears to be the major > roadblock for our logic. > Mathematically I think that's correct. Isn't the blockage the idea that a structure ( the economic network ) must necessarily reflect 1:1 the underlying structures ( transport, communication ) on which it depends? > If I could find out where this stipulation is coming from > the idea that network == internet ? > and figure out the necessary logical proofs, you could > possibly have a water-tight buzzword. > Just the thing to keep the softening economy afloat. Pass it on to the new prez, he'll like it and it will the communication of his ideas to the citizens more effective. > I don't believe I have ever > heard one of those (the marketing favorite, "paradigm shift" is an > excellent example of why buzzwords don't have to be logical anyway). > Paradigm shifts are very real. Every time I spend 20 cents. Isn't the "synergy" on this list encouraging? > > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > > Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > We *do* all trade with our neighbors so your term is only trouble > when > > looking at the wrong part of the geometry. With trade the > > measure should > > not be based on physical space or network geometry, those are > > transient > > and permutable, rather the measure should be based on the proximity > of > > the parties in terms of goods consumed, goods produced and > > pricing. The > > networks are not electrical or geographical they're economic. So > while > > it does affect cost all this communication and transportation > > technology > > is only the physical layer. > > > > Mike > > From carskar at netsolve.net Wed Dec 13 13:42:59 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:42:59 -0600 Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7435@cobra.netsolve.net> Well, hell, that's what I said. But you make it sound so much more _clear_. I don't remember who was saying that geodesic definition is based solely on local information, but that appears to be the major roadblock for our logic. If I could find out where this stipulation is coming from and figure out the necessary logical proofs, you could possibly have a water-tight buzzword. I don't believe I have ever heard one of those (the marketing favorite, "paradigm shift" is an excellent example of why buzzwords don't have to be logical anyway). > -----Original Message----- > From: mmotyka at lsil.com [mailto:mmotyka at lsil.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 11:19 AM > To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net > Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatitz > > > > Bob, > > We *do* all trade with our neighbors so your term is only trouble when > looking at the wrong part of the geometry. With trade the > measure should > not be based on physical space or network geometry, those are > transient > and permutable, rather the measure should be based on the proximity of > the parties in terms of goods consumed, goods produced and > pricing. The > networks are not electrical or geographical they're economic. So while > it does affect cost all this communication and transportation > technology > is only the physical layer. > > Mike > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2373 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rah at shipwright.com Wed Dec 13 16:46:31 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:46:31 -0800 Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing In-Reply-To: <20001209113533.B10803@cluebot.com> References: <20001209113533.B10803@cluebot.com> Message-ID: At 11:35 AM -0500 on 12/9/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > Privacy leftists We have a winner. Time to patch the old buzzword engine with something *truly* inflammatory... :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From Circulation at Naviant.com Wed Dec 13 14:45:57 2000 From: Circulation at Naviant.com (GetConnected.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:45:57 -0500 Subject: Get Up to $375 in Savings from GetConnected.com Message-ID: <200012132259.OAA02883@cyberpass.net> Dear Friend, Sign up for any Phone, Internet or Wireless service from GetConnected.com and save up to $375 with GetConnected.com's special offers listed below. From the latest wireless phones to a great selection of high-speed Internet providers, GetConnected.com is technology's home on the Internet. And if you're looking for that perfect holiday gift check out the new wireless handheld devices. You may just add it to your own wish list. 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It's part of our Friends and Family program that's designed to give a little back to our customers. Just click here. http://www.we0.net/Naviant/rd.asp?id=3JT0M-T-CN-Z ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit us today and find out why GetConnected.com was recently named one of Newsweek's "103 Best Web Sites" and Yahoo's top site of the day. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- COMPARE SHOP SAVE ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If for any reason you would prefer not to continue receiving information, please click or cut and paste this link into your browser: http://www.we0.net/Naviant/optout.asp?id=3JT0M-T-CN-0 to be removed from this mailing list. Copyright(c)1998-2000 Naviant Marketing Solutions, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 12418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From info at giganetstore.com Wed Dec 13 10:16:19 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:16:19 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ofere=E7a_um_giftcheque!?= Message-ID: <01c181916180dc0WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em formato HTML, basta clicar aqui. Ofereça um giftcheque! Este Natal brincar de Pai Natal vai ser muito mais fácil! Se ainda está indeciso sobre a prenda ideal, a giga netstore.com propõe-lhe giftscheques! Basta escolher o valor do giftcheque e descansar.Estará a oferecer exactamente aquilo que pretende! Ser-lhe-á entregue um código correspondente que deverá ser utilizado, pela pessoa a quem oferecer o cheque, na compra de qualquer produto na nossa loja. A giga netstore.com deseja-lhe um Natal muito mais descansado. Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Dec 13 18:37:23 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:37:23 -0800 Subject: Link to e-commerce bullshit engine Message-ID: <3A383263.CAFA79C7@lsil.com> >> Privacy leftists > AKA privacy commies. Also don't leave out the privacy right-wingers : AKA privacy fascists. >We have a winner. > >Time to patch the old buzzword engine with something *truly* >inflammatory... > Why not implement a object-oriented mission-critical dynamic cross-platform inflammatory e-synergistic extensible convergence of next-generation schemas leveraging of out-of-the-box religious, political and civil rights plug-and-play back-end technologies? If we throw in some more categorical chaff we can make a set : Privacy Athiests - think privacy doesn't exist ( that guy at Sun ) Privacy Agnostics* - don't care about privacy ( 99% of population ) Privacy Fundamentalists - a very religious group fer sure. Privacy Iconoclasts - destroyers of privacy, politicians and marketeers Subclass Leftist-Commies Subclass Right-Wing-Fascists Subclass Opportunists Privacy Activist - any non-tuberous member of one of the above Privacy Criminal - any Privacy Fundamentalist with the Activist bit set. Privacy JackbootThug - any Privacy Iconoclast with the Activist bit set. *Privacy Agnostics have no Activist bit. nothing new under the sun : http://www.dack.com/web/bullshit.html I like some of the comments : Congratulations! So simple yet so elegantly fecal!  Peter L. The bullshit generator is bullshit. I saw the same stuff 10 years ago.  anonymous From rah at shipwright.com Wed Dec 13 18:40:15 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:40:15 -0800 Subject: It's official... Message-ID: Ewig war ich, Brünnhilde's aria from Siegfried Ewig war ich, ewig bin ich, ewig in süß sehnender Wonne, doch ewig zu deinem Heil! O Siegfried Herrlicher! Hort der Welt! Leben der Erde! Lachender Held! Laß, ach laß! Lasse von mir! Nahe mir nicht mit der wütenden Nähe! Zwinge mich nicht mit dem brechenden Zwang, zertrümmre die Traute dir nicht! - Sahst du dein Bild im klaren Bach? Hat es dich Frohen erfreut? Rührtest zur Woge das Wasser du auf; zerflösse die klare Fläche des Bachs: dein Bild säht du nicht mehr, nur der Welle schwankend Gewog'! So berühre mich nicht, trübe mich nicht! Ewig licht lachst du selig dann aus mir dir entgegen, froh und heiter ein Held! - O Siegfried! Leuchtender Sproß! Liebe dich, und lasse von mir: vernichte dein Eigen nicht! -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From em at who.net Wed Dec 13 03:42:07 2000 From: em at who.net (Enzo Michelangeli) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 19:42:07 +0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: <01c701c064f9$da222900$6000a8c0@em> Tom Vogt wrote: > Tim May wrote: > > Lighten up. It was a joke. > > > > (I even provided a hint, in the "honored in some cultures.") > > sorry, I've been working overtime on some stuff here lately, and I was > too tired to get it. also, I'm tired of the nitpicking some people here > exhibit as if there were nothing more important to do than ignore the > main point of a posting and nibble on the minor errors. Anyway, "methinks" is in Shakespeare ("The lady doth protest too much, methinks." - Hamlet, Act III, Scene 2), so perhaps "mewrote" might vaunt an illustrious pedigree... Enzo From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 13 20:48:02 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:48:02 -0800 Subject: Secretions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001213204802.00a2e100@idiom.com> Haven't seen St. Jude in a couple of years - thanks for the post. Even John Young would have trouble keeping up a rant like that :-) At 11:14 AM 12/10/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >Speaking of chadors... > >Thanks, as ever, to Ryan for cypherpunks.venona.com. >* To: cypherpunks at toad.com >* Subject: secretions >* From: Judith Milhon >* Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 03:01:26 -0700 Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 13 21:28:36 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 21:28:36 -0800 Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing In-Reply-To: References: <20001209113533.B10803@cluebot.com> <20001209113533.B10803@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001213212836.009e18f0@idiom.com> At 04:46 PM 12/13/00 -0800, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 11:35 AM -0500 on 12/9/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > >> Privacy leftists > >We have a winner. >Time to patch the old buzzword engine with something *truly* inflammatory... Of course, "Privacy Rightwingers" don't believe in real privacy either. (You can't use the term "privacy rightists" to parallel "privacy leftists" because it will be interpreted wrong, but "Privacy Rightwingers" is close.) After all, the government ought to be able to poke into your business, and tap your phone calls in traditional fashion, and keep track of your race, and keep track of your nationality in case you might be a furriner, and keep track of who lives where because there might be (gasp!) unmarried persons of opposite sex sharing living quarters, or otherwise shacking up. Motels, too. And anywhere Commies do anything. They probably don't insist on violating your privacy in everything - for instance there's no need to search people getting on airplanes, because if everybody took handguns on planes they could shoot any Commie hijackers trying to go to Cuba.... Then there's Barlow's definition of privacy in a small town "where you don't need to use your turn signal because everybody knows where you're going anyway." Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Circulation at Naviant.com Wed Dec 13 19:19:58 2000 From: Circulation at Naviant.com (GetConnected.com) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:19:58 -0500 Subject: Get Up to $375 in Savings from GetConnected.com Message-ID: <200012140521.AAA22402@mail.virtual-estates.net> Dear Friend, Sign up for any Phone, Internet or Wireless service from GetConnected.com and save up to $375 with GetConnected.com's special offers listed below. From the latest wireless phones to a great selection of high-speed Internet providers, GetConnected.com is technology's home on the Internet. And if you're looking for that perfect holiday gift check out the new wireless handheld devices. You may just add it to your own wish list. GetConnected.com provides up-to-date listings of all telecommunication providers and plans so you can compare your options side by side and choose the best plan for you. Our information is comprehensive and unbiased, allowing you to make an informed decision while saving time and money. No sales associates to follow you around a store - but our customer service is live and available 24 hours a day. Start Saving Now: To take advantage of GetConnected.com's special rebates, simply click on any of the links below Check out the great offers: - $25 off any Long Distance service http://www.we0.net/Naviant/rd.asp?id=3JT0K-T-CN-S - $100 off any Wireless Phone and Plan http://www.we0.net/Naviant/rd.asp?id=3JT0K-T-CN-T - $100 off any Wireless Handheld Device and Plan http://www.we0.net/Naviant/rd.asp?id=3JT0K-T-CN-V - $50 off when you purchase Internet service http://www.we0.net/Naviant/rd.asp?id=3JT0K-T-CN-Y - $50 off Local Phone http://www.we0.net/Naviant/rd.asp?id=3JT0K-T-CN-W - $50 off Cable or Satellite TV http://www.we0.net/Naviant/rd.asp?id=3JT0K-T-CN-X It's that simple. MAKE BOND JEALOUS When you visit GetConnected.com at http://www.we0.net/Naviant/rd.asp?id=3JT0K-T-CN-R, enter to win a BMW Z3 Roadster complete with Cell Phone and PDA. FRIENDSHIP PAYS We'll also give you a $20 Gift Certificate whenever any of your friends or family purchase on our site. It's part of our Friends and Family program that's designed to give a little back to our customers. Just click here. http://www.we0.net/Naviant/rd.asp?id=3JT0K-T-CN-Z ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit us today and find out why GetConnected.com was recently named one of Newsweek's "103 Best Web Sites" and Yahoo's top site of the day. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- COMPARE SHOP SAVE ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If for any reason you would prefer not to continue receiving information, please click or cut and paste this link into your browser: http://www.we0.net/Naviant/optout.asp?id=3JT0K-T-CN-0 to be removed from this mailing list. Copyright(c)1998-2000 Naviant Marketing Solutions, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 12418 bytes Desc: not available URL: From royhar at pacbell.net Wed Dec 13 22:25:12 2000 From: royhar at pacbell.net (roy) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:25:12 -0800 Subject: This has the w95.hybris.gen virus in it. ...Re: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001213222403.0382a8d0@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 10:46 PM 12/13/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and >polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a >*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the >Seven >Dwarfs enter... > ___________________________________ If we don't change our basic perceptions of life, as a species we will perish in servitude to institutional greed. Please read Vote or Die at www.thirdparty.dhs.org "A human being is part of a whole, called by us the "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest -a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. " - Albert Einstein (1879-1955) From directmarketing2000 at netzero.com Wed Dec 13 22:50:16 2000 From: directmarketing2000 at netzero.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:50:16 -0800 Subject: Earn Weekly Paychecks At Home - Here's How... Message-ID: <200012140657.WAA18704@cyberpass.net> Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly Home Workers Needed Nationwide Hundreds of companies are currently looking for telecommuters. There is no experience needed and you can start right away. This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program. In fact, none of the companies require any special fees to get started. Many offer free training. Start earning money in your spare time. You set the hours, you decide how much you want to make. Email cashflow4u at earthlink.net with "Work At Home" in the subject heading for complete details. Best Wishes Home Workers Directory P.S. Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. From directmarketing2000 at netzero.com Wed Dec 13 22:50:19 2000 From: directmarketing2000 at netzero.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:50:19 -0800 Subject: Earn Weekly Paychecks At Home - Here's How... Message-ID: <200012140620.WAA20517@toad.com> Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly Home Workers Needed Nationwide Hundreds of companies are currently looking for telecommuters. There is no experience needed and you can start right away. This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program. In fact, none of the companies require any special fees to get started. Many offer free training. Start earning money in your spare time. You set the hours, you decide how much you want to make. Email cashflow4u at earthlink.net with "Work At Home" in the subject heading for complete details. Best Wishes Home Workers Directory P.S. Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. From njohnson at interl.net Wed Dec 13 20:53:13 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:53:13 -0600 Subject: Geodesic Fractal Whatzit Message-ID: <001101c06589$c5a936e0$0100a8c0@nandts> I think this article from satirewire sums it all up: http://satirewire.com/briefs/lobster.shtml Neil M. Johnson njohnson at interl.net http://www.interl.net/~njohnson PGP Key Finger Print: 93C0 793F B66E A0C7 CEEA 3E92 6B99 2DCC From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 13 23:25:39 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:25:39 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001213232539.00a7a120@idiom.com> It's cute, but it won't wash. The problem is that a list like this doesn't provide any Obscurity to its users unless there are a large number of subscribers. One reader out of a thousand is slightly Obscure. One reader out of three just isn't. Adding large numbers of posters to the list doesn't help, though you could use it as a dead drop for those NYTimes subscriptions and egroups subscriptions if you wanted. A gateway from alt.anonymous.messages might be fun anyway. Back when people read Usenet on their own machines, instead of getting it from an ISP via NNTP clients, Usenet groups gave readers Pretty Good Obscurity. That might still be the case at universities or companies that maintain their own news feeds, but there aren't a lot any more, especially since a full newsfeed takes multiple T1s full-time. At 08:39 AM 12/13/00 -0500, BMM wrote: >I would like to announce the "secret-admirers" mail list. > >The "secret-admirers" list is intended to function in a manner similar >to the well-known Usenet newsgroup "alt.anonymous.messages". This >newsgroup serves as a dead drop for communications in which the recipient >wishes to remain unknown. > >While access to a Usenet news server is unavailable in many environments, >the ubiquity and flexibility of e-mail may be advantageous for the >following reasons: > >- Penetration: More people having access to (pseudo|ano)nymizing tools > is generally a good thing. >- Pool Size: Higher utilization of the message pool may frustrate > traffic analysis. The list may be gatewayed back into > alt.anonymous.messages or vice versa. CDR-like > nodes for redistribution may be established to reduce > load on individual nodes. >- Filtering: E-mail filtering tools are widely available, allowing > recipients to draw only pertinent messages from the > pool by filtering on tokens which have been negotiated > out-of-band or by the public key to which a message has > been encrypted. > >The mail list is unmoderated and accepts messages from any submitter. >Submissions may be sent to "secret-admirers at minder.net" or >"sa at minder.net". > >TO SUBSCRIBE to the list, send a message with "subscribe secret-admirers" >in the body to majordomo at minder.net. The more subscribers, the better, >even if procmail just sends it to /dev/null. > >TO UNSUBSCRIBE from the list, send a message with "unsubscribe >secret-admirers" to majordomo at minder.net. > >A digest of this list is available. This list is not currently archived. > >Thanks, > >-Brian > >-- >bmm at minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9 > > > > Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 14 03:50:55 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 03:50:55 -0800 Subject: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001213233508.0084f680@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <3.0.6.32.20001213233508.0084f680@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: At 11:35 PM -0600 on 12/13/00, by way of believer at telepath.com wrote: > FOR ALL TO SEE > It's a spray which renders sealed envelopes transparent, making the > letters inside as easy to read as postcards. "It leaves an odour for 10 > to 15 minutes," says the spray's inventor, but, apart from that, "no > evidence at all" that it's been used. While the manufacturer describes > "See-Through" as a "non-conductive, non-toxic, environmentally safe > liquid", human rights activists believe "it's an ethically questionable > product" which could tempt security forces to bend laws. > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns226930 -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 14 05:05:53 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 05:05:53 -0800 Subject: paycash payment system got $10 mln Message-ID: --- begin forwarded text From ron at msn.com Thu Dec 14 02:38:14 2000 From: ron at msn.com (ron at msn.com) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 05:38:14 -0500 Subject: Waz-up? Message-ID: <00004b574e2b$0000422e$000045f3@secure.smtp.email.msn.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 600 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at ssz.com Thu Dec 14 05:21:43 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:21:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: MAPS/RBL and censorship Message-ID: See the related story on, http://slashdot.org ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From declan at well.com Thu Dec 14 04:30:40 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:30:40 -0500 Subject: Biowomdterror today in DC Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001214072846.00b58920@mail.well.com> FOREIGN AFFAIRS Washington Foreign Press Center (WFPC) Background briefing on a new phase for the "Rewards for Justice" program, an initiative to prevent international terrorist acts. Foreign media only please Location: WFPC, Room 898, National Press Building, 14th and F St., NW. 2:15 p.m. Contact: Andy Dryden, 202-661-8963 **NEW** FOREIGN AFFAIRS Inter-American Drug Abuse Control Commission (CICAD) Special session to consider and adopt 1999-2000 national and hemispheric reports on anti-drug efforts progress throughout the Americas, December 11-15. All sessions closed Location: Organization of American States (OAS), 17th St. and Constitution Ave., NW, Hall of the Americas. 9 a.m. Contact: Janelle Conaway, 202-458-6841 **NEW** SOCIAL ISSUES National Press Club Morning Newsmaker Program Release of findings on U.S. terrorism preparedness to be sent to Congress and the president. Participants: Gov. Jim Gilmore, R-Va., chairman, Advisory Panel to Assess Domestic Response Capabilities for Terrorism Involving Weapons of Mass Destruction Location: National Press Club, 14th and F Sts., NW. 10 a.m. Contact: 202-662-7593 From declan at well.com Thu Dec 14 04:40:00 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:40:00 -0500 Subject: National Academy of Sciences panel hears about porn & kids Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001214073953.014f7030@mail.well.com> http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,40653,00.html How X Rates With 'W' by Declan McCullagh (declan at wired.com) 8:00 a.m. Dec. 13, 2000 PST WASHINGTON -- Advisory committees inside the federal bureaucracy usually inhabit that featureless terrain between obscurity and futility: There's no pay, scant power and little prestige. But when a group is created by the respected National Academy of Sciences, and when the topic is the politically heated brew of sex, kids and the Internet, traditional rules no longer apply. With an eye to making a recommendation to Congress next year, the academy's committee on Internet pornography and inappropriate material met on Wednesday to hear social science experts describe the effects of smut and violence on the youth of America. It's a sure bet Washington will be paying close attention to the results. Republicans have pledged that the Justice Department will pounce on "obscene" websites should George W. Bush gain the presidency. Bush himself has railed against offensive content online, and he has endorsed library and school filtering. "One of the reasons we've had very little success (getting sex and violence off TV) is that television controls the message," said Joanne Cantor, a communications professor at the University of Wisconsin. "The positive thing may be that television is more willing to focus on the horrors of the Internet than the horrors of television," Cantor said. Cantor, like the other presenters, didn't confine her remarks to porn. Although figuring out how to shield kids from digital prurience is the group's primary task, it's also charged with considering "other inappropriate Internet content." That's arguably a pretty vague mission, but the committee members were too busy agreeing with the speakers to quibble. [...] Wednesday's meeting of the National Academy of Sciences panel was designed to explore "non-technical" strategies for protecting children from offensive material -- such options include providing guidelines for parents and educating kids about sexuality. Technical options the panel will weigh include filtering software, the creation of a new top-level domain, rating systems, and regulations or new laws directed at sexually explicit sites online. The committee's stated goal is to "provide a foundation for a more coherent and objective local and national debate on the subject of Internet pornography" while avoiding "specific" recommendations directed at new laws or regulations. This week's meeting is the third. The group will next meet in March in the San Francisco area to discuss technical options, and finally in June 2001 in Chicago. [...] From gbroiles at netbox.com Thu Dec 14 08:37:41 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:37:41 -0800 Subject: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... In-Reply-To: ; from rah@shipwright.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:50:55AM -0800 References: <3.0.6.32.20001213233508.0084f680@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20001214083740.I29513@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:50:55AM -0800, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > Real-To: "R. A. Hettinga" > > At 11:35 PM -0600 on 12/13/00, by way of believer at telepath.com wrote: > > > > FOR ALL TO SEE > > It's a spray which renders sealed envelopes transparent, making the > > letters inside as easy to read as postcards. "It leaves an odour for 10 > > to 15 minutes," says the spray's inventor, but, apart from that, "no > > evidence at all" that it's been used. While the manufacturer describes > > "See-Through" as a "non-conductive, non-toxic, environmentally safe > > liquid", human rights activists believe "it's an ethically questionable > > product" which could tempt security forces to bend laws. > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns226930 Inventor? Shit. You can achieve this result with the "canned air" dusters sold to computer techs and photo people by simply turning the can upside down so the magic stuff emerges in liquid, not gaseous form - drip or spray it on the envelope in question, and the paper becomes (partially) translucent. The human rights activists are just pissed off they can't afford it themselves if they order it from a spy catalog. Everyone can afford it at Fry's - and learn thing about their friends and neighbors that they'll someday wish they hadn't. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Dec 14 09:19:59 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:19:59 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A38AD0D.DB078F12@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- James A. Donald: > > Killing several million Jews is murderous because killing Jews > > merely for being Jewish is like killing me, therefore someone who > > liquidates the Jews is likely to kill me, someone who favors > > rendering society Jew free is likely to kill me if he had the > > power. > > > > Similarly anyone who thinks that Stalin was too soft on the kulaks > > (read the various commie criticisms of Stalin) would certainly > > kill me if he had the power, for the same reasons as he would kill > > the kulaks. Tom Vogt > all along we've been talking about "evil". suddenly, in your two > examples above, the word doesn't appear anymore. The word murder does appear. Murder is defined as "wrongful killing.", hence is by definition a particular kind of evil. Indeed it is the archetypal example of evil, the type specimen of evil. The point is that to know whether a killing indicates the killer is likely to kill me, I have to make a moral judgement of the killing, to determine that the killing is morally similar to killing me. Trotsky thought that killing political enemies of the bolsheviks was different from killing Trotsky. He was wrong. Conversely people who believe that the Vietnam war was an evil act of aggression are likely to erroneously believe that Vietnam veterans are dangerous people, whereas people who have a more balanced view of the Vietnam war have a more accurate perception of Vietnam veterans. Tom Vogt: > > > you are changing the meaning of "we" without noticing it. in the > > > 2nd paragraph, "we" means pretty much everyone. in the third, > > > "we" is much smaller. for example, the nazis would certainly > > > have agreed to calling iron "eisen" (the german word for > > > "iron"). however, they didn't call the mass murdering of jews > > > that. James A. Donald: > > Then they were wrong, just as they would have been wrong had they > > called iron copper. Tom Vogt: > but the point is that the one point can be settled, the other not. Surely the events of the twentieth century settled the matter decisively. Those who believe otherwise are monsters or fools, knaves or dupes. When people die as a result of their error, others should learn. > it's hard to maintain that iron is copper in face of all evidence. > it seems to be very easy to continue believing that "only a dead > indian/jew/arab/american/nip/whatever is a good one" even if the > whole world is convinced otherwise. If this was so, why do regimes that propagate evil ideas find it so vital to control all sources of information? Their hostility to empirical evidence, their hostility to the mere act of paying attention to empirical evidence, shows that it is not so easy to maintain false moral beliefs in the face of the evidence, shows that most people can not only easily cross the is-ought gap, but scarcely refrain from doing so. Anyone who propagates false moral beliefs also propagates false emprical claims supporting those false moral beliefs -- hence for example the continual debates where Marxists claim that Marx's predictions are coming true. If there was an is ought gap, they would find it unnecessary to so tightly couple moral and factual claims. > > And evidence that they were wrong is that a great many of them > > died of that error, for nazis killed more nazis than they did > > commies, just as the commies killed more commies than they did > > nazis, something that anyone could have foreseen had he recognized > > that killing Jews was murder, that killing capitalists for being > > capitalists was murder. > if dying for your belief proves you wrong, But they did not die for their beliefs. Had they died fighting jews they would of died for their beliefs. Instead they were killed by their fellow nazis. > but you're playing bait&switch again. you're moving from evil to > wrong to murderous as it pleases your argument. Evil, wrong, and murderous are not different categories. "Murderous" is the classic example of evil, and when I talk of "wrong" I say that the Trotsky's moral judgements were in error. > > It really is murder, really is capricious and unreasonable > > killing, and hence it really is indicative of propensity to kill > > people capriciously, which is why we feel about murder as we do, > > feel that it is wrong. > so? I don't understand why you're arguing at length for something > that's never been questioned. the point is that calling this "evil" > is a subjective point and that there is no such thing as "objective > evil". Those who are aware of the existence of objective evil predicted that the nazis and the commies would murder friend and enemy alike. Those blind to this obvious fact failed to make that prediction. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG z9OF8tAFvxs87kvxsMf4W5TXyaYXwPPjl3mFaQ8z 4QqcZRNgYRTRscDdm+ybXHDBw13zxicQPiIhHcz7f From bear at sonic.net Thu Dec 14 10:47:18 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:47:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Gil Hamilton wrote: >are all apparently self-promotional mouthpieces for this Gerck >fellow (formerly of the "Meta-Certificate Group", another >self-promotion vehicle) who has shown up on cypherpunks and other >crypto/security lists from time to time, usually with somewhat >crankish ideas. Aw gee, Gil! Cranks? Here on the Cypherpunks list? Say it ain't so! :-) From rguerra at yahoo.com Thu Dec 14 07:48:41 2000 From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:48:41 -0500 Subject: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology (fwd) Message-ID: <1833345108.976790921@MSH4906> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: Thursday, December 14, 2000 3:42 AM -0800 From: Ed Gerck To: DIGSIG at LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU Subject: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology List: In its ruling on the Florida election, the U.S. Supreme Court effectively issued a challenge to today's technologists: Create uniform standards for casting ballots so there can be uniform standards for counting votes. However, Florida voting systems exemplify a mixture of technologies, with 40 percent using punch-cards, 55 percent using optical scans, 4 percent using mechanical voting machines and 1 percent using manually tabulated ballots [1]. Ballots in the U.S. are cast using widely different methods, machines, ballot designs, and maintenance procedures. How can one apply a uniform standard to a system that is not uniform? In my view, the justices struggled with the question of valid votes and decided that objectivity needs to be enforced even in a situation where there is no objective reference. This amounts to a technical contradiction. But law has the final word on technology and should set the requirements. It is now up to us technologists to design systems that comply with the law ? or turn it back to law and say that this is impossible, something like legislation that once was introduced [2] to define the value of pi as 3. The Supreme Court decision is thus either bogus or poses a need for strict voting standards. In this regard, a set of 16 strict standards for precinct-based Internet voting ? which are technology-independent and can also be applied to paper-based and electronic touch-screen systems ? was recently presented by Safevote [3] for public comments after some discussions at the IVTA [4] and other online groups, to the IVTA. The requirements include specifications for voter privacy, vote secrecy, election integrity, tamper-proof ballots, open protocol review, open source code, technology independence, physical recounts, multiple audit trails, and 100 percent vote accuracy. Anonymous digital signatures are one way to implement the requirements, as shown in [5]. The requirements and background can be downloaded at www.thebell.net/archives/thebell1.7.pdf -- besides their technical use in developing practical and yet better voting systems, the requirements may also be helpful to legal re-evaluations of what law can and should objectively define in order to help improve voting systems in the U.S. Cheers, Ed Gerck [1] The Bell, www.thebell.net, June 2000. [2] Indiana House Bill #246 was introduced on 18 January 1897, and declares: "the ratio of the diameter and circumference is as five-fourths to four," which makes pi = 3.2. There are other values for pi quoted in the Bill. But the lore is pi = 3, and this is what the public perception has retained -- so, this is also what I chose as an example. More in http://www.acc.umu.se/~olletg/pi/indiana.html [3] www.safevote.com [4] www.ivta.org, tech WG archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/tech at ivta.org/ [5] www.safevote.com/demo2000/ ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- From ross at hypertools.com Thu Dec 14 11:15:47 2000 From: ross at hypertools.com (David Ross) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:15:47 -0800 Subject: Question re diskette data security References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A391C63.9175905@hypertools.com> Hello cypherpunks - Any suggestions as to how to read the contents of a standard 1.44 MByte floppy disk while it is inside a paper & bubblewrap diskette mailer? What about a CDROM in a similar mailer? No fair just opening the envelope, since we are going to assume that the mailer is sealed in such a way as to make it obvious to the recipient that it was opened in transit. Let's say that we're not real concerned if the snooper finds out what's on the diskette, but we do want to know _absolutely_for_sure_ whether or not the snooper does know what's on the disk. Dave Ross ross at hypertools.com From root at ak47.algebra.com Thu Dec 14 09:24:04 2000 From: root at ak47.algebra.com (root) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:24:04 -0600 Subject: t3st Message-ID: <200012141724.eBEHO4b12879@ak47.algebra.com> hi From declan at well.com Thu Dec 14 08:50:58 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:50:58 -0500 Subject: Ranks Of Privacy 'Pragmatists' Are Growing In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001213212836.009e18f0@idiom.com> References: <20001209113533.B10803@cluebot.com> <20001209113533.B10803@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001214115031.01563260@mail.well.com> Bill, this is splendid! Can I talk you into writing a similar screed about privacy leftists? I'll cite you in my weekly column. --Declan At 21:28 12/13/2000 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 04:46 PM 12/13/00 -0800, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > >At 11:35 AM -0500 on 12/9/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > > > >> Privacy leftists > > > >We have a winner. > >Time to patch the old buzzword engine with something *truly* inflammatory... > >Of course, "Privacy Rightwingers" don't believe in real privacy either. >(You can't use the term "privacy rightists" to parallel "privacy leftists" >because it will be interpreted wrong, but "Privacy Rightwingers" is close.) > >After all, the government ought to be able to poke into your business, >and tap your phone calls in traditional fashion, and keep track of your race, >and keep track of your nationality in case you might be a furriner, >and keep track of who lives where because there might be (gasp!) >unmarried persons of opposite sex sharing living quarters, >or otherwise shacking up. Motels, too. And anywhere Commies do anything. >They probably don't insist on violating your privacy in everything - >for instance there's no need to search people getting on airplanes, >because if everybody took handguns on planes they could shoot >any Commie hijackers trying to go to Cuba.... > >Then there's Barlow's definition of privacy in a small town >"where you don't need to use your turn signal because >everybody knows where you're going anyway." > Thanks! > Bill >Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com >PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From camael7 at nightmail.com Thu Dec 14 12:00:02 2000 From: camael7 at nightmail.com (gary seven) Date: 14 Dec 2000 12:00:02 -0800 Subject: nambla Message-ID: <20001214200002.22602.qmail@box72.nightmail.com> You are under the Judgement of the LORD GOD OF HOST for the sin of the sea of babies, abortion and infant sacrifice to the devil. You will burn in the presence of the HOLY Angels. The seals are opened. PREPARE FOR YOUR DESTRUCTION CAMAEL ARCHANGEL OF DESTRUCTION THE PLAGUES OF THE LORD FOR THE SIN OF THE �SEA OF BABIES� UPON ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH IAIAIAIAIOIOIOIOIO I AM BEFORE ALL BUT THE FATHER; MELOCH HEL ALOKIM TPHARET HOD JESAITH; BAHANDO HELESLOIR DEALZAT Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading-trough. Cursed shall be the fruit of your body, and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle, and the young of your flock. Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. "The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and frustration, in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your doings, because you have forsaken me. The LORD will make the pestilence cleave to you until he has consumed you off the land which you are entering to take possession of it. The LORD will smite you with consumption, and with fever, inflammation, and fiery heat, and with drought, and with blasting, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. And the heavens over your head shall be brass, and the earth under you shall be iron. The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down upon you until you are destroyed. "The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them; and you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth; and there shall be no one to frighten them away. The LORD will smite you with the boils of Egypt, and with the ulcers and the scurvy and the itch, of which you cannot be healed. The LORD will smite you with madness and blindness and confusion of mind; and you shall grope at noonday, as the blind grope in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways; and you shall be only oppressed and robbed continually, and there shall be no one to help you. You shall betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, and you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, and you shall not use the fruit of it. Your ox shall be slain before your eyes, and you shall not eat of it; your ass shall be violently taken away before your face, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and there shall be no one to help you. Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and fail with longing for them all the day; and it shall not be in the power of your hand to prevent it. A nation which you have not known shall eat up the fruit of your ground and of all your labors; and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually; so that you shall be driven mad by the sight which your eyes shall see. The LORD will smite you on the knees and on the legs with grievous boils of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. "The LORD will bring you, and your king whom you set over you, to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known; and there you shall serve other gods, of wood and stone. And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword, among all the peoples where the LORD will lead you away. You shall carry much seed into the field, and shall gather little in; for the locust shall consume it. You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worm shall eat them. You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. All your trees and the fruit of your ground the locust shall possess. The sojourner who is among you shall mount above you higher and higher; and you shall come down lower and lower. He shall lend to you, and you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail. All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you, till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded you. They shall be upon you as a sign and a wonder, and upon your descendants for ever. "Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, by reason of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and in want of all things; and he will put a yoke of iron upon your neck, until he has destroyed you. The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you do not understand, a nation of stern countenance, who shall not regard the person of the old or show favor to the young, 1Give ear, you heavens, and I will speak; Let the earth hear the words of my mouth. 32:2My doctrine shall drop as the rain; My speech shall condense as the dew, As the small rain on the tender grass, As the showers on the herb. 32:3For I will proclaim the name of Yahweh: Ascribe greatness to our God. 32:4The Rock, his work is perfect; For all his ways are justice: A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is he. 32:5They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation. 32:6Do you thus requite Yahweh, Foolish people and unwise? Isn't he your father who has bought you? He has made you, and established you. 32:7Remember the days of old, Consider the years of many generations: Ask your father, and he will show you; Your elders, and they will tell you. 32:8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, When he separated the children of men, He set the bounds of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. 32:9For Yahweh's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. 32:10He found him in a desert land, In the waste howling wilderness; He compassed him about, he cared for him, He kept him as the apple of his eye. 32:11As an eagle that stirs up her nest, That flutters over her young, He spread abroad his wings, he took them, He bore them on his feathers. 32:12Yahweh alone did lead him, There was no foreign god with him. 32:13He made him ride on the high places of the earth, He ate the increase of the field; He made him to suck honey out of the rock, Oil out of the flinty rock; 32:14Butter of the herd, and milk of the flock, With fat of lambs, Rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, With the finest of the wheat; Of the blood of the grape you drank wine. 32:15But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked: You have grown fat, you are grown thick, you are become sleek; Then he forsook God who made him, Lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. 32:16They moved him to jealousy with strange gods; With abominations provoked they him to anger. 32:17They sacrificed to demons, which were no God, To gods that they didn't know, To new gods that came up of late, Which your fathers didn't dread. 32:18Of the Rock that became your father, you are unmindful, Have forgotten God who gave you birth. 32:19Yahweh saw it, and abhorred them, Because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters. 32:20He said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness. 32:21They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: I will move them to jealousy with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 32:22For a fire is kindled in my anger, Burns to the lowest Sheol, Devours the earth with its increase, Sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. 32:23I will heap evils on them; I will spend my arrows on them: 32:24They shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured with burning heat Bitter destruction; The teeth of animals will I send on them, With the poison of crawling things of the dust. 32:25Outside shall the sword bereave, In the chambers terror; It shall destroy both young man and virgin, The suckling with the man of gray hairs. 32:26I said, I would scatter them afar, I would make the memory of them to cease from among men; 32:27Were it not that I feared the provocation of the enemy, Lest their adversaries should judge amiss, Lest they should say, Our hand is exalted, Yahweh has not done all this. 32:28For they are a nation void of counsel, There is no understanding in them. 32:29Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, That they would consider their latter end! 32:30How should one chase a thousand, Two put ten thousand to flight, Except their Rock had sold them, Yahweh had delivered them up? 32:31For their rock is not as our Rock, Even our enemies themselves being judges. 32:32For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, Of the fields of Gomorrah: Their grapes are grapes of gall, Their clusters are bitter: 32:33Their wine is the poison of serpents, The cruel venom of asps. 32:34Isn't this laid up in store with me, Sealed up among my treasures? 32:35Vengeance is mine, and recompense, At the time when their foot shall slide: For the day of their calamity is at hand, The things that are to come on them shall make haste. 32:36For Yahweh will judge his people, Repent himself for his servants; When he sees that their power is gone, There is none remaining, shut up or left at large. 32:37He will say, Where are their gods, The rock in which they took refuge; 32:38Which ate the fat of their sacrifices, And drank the wine of their drink-offering? Let them rise up and help you, Let them be your protection. 32:39See now that I, even I, am he, There is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; There is none who can deliver out of my hand. 32:40For I lift up my hand to heaven, And say, As I live forever, 32:41If I whet my glittering sword, My hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to my adversaries, Will recompense those who hate me. 32:42I will make my arrows drunk with blood, My sword shall devour flesh; With the blood of the slain and the captives, >From the head of the leaders of the enemy. 32:43Rejoice, you nations, with his people: For he will avenge the blood of his servants, Will render vengeance to his adversaries, Will make expiation for his land, for his people. 1: Draw near, O nations, to hear, and hearken, O peoples! Let the earth listen, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it. 2: For the LORD is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host, he has doomed them, has given them over for slaughter. 3: Their slain shall be cast out, and the stench of their corpses shall rise; the mountains shall flow with their blood. 4: All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree. 5: For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Earth, upon the people I have doomed. 6: The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood, it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in America, a great slaughter in the land of its allies. 7: Wild oxen shall fall with them, and young steers with the mighty bulls. Their land shall be soaked with blood, and their soil made rich with fat. 8: For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Children. 9: And the streams of America shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone; her land shall become burning pitch. 10: Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up for ever. >From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. 11: But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it, the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. He shall stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plummet of chaos over its nobles. 12: They shall name it No Kingdom There, and all its princes shall be nothing. 13: Thorns shall grow over its strongholds, nettles and thistles in its fortresses. It shall be the haunt of jackals, an abode for ostriches. 14: And wild beasts shall meet with hyenas, the satyr shall cry to his fellow; yea, there shall the night hag alight, and find for herself a resting place. 15: There shall the owl nest and lay and hatch and gather her young in her shadow; yea, there shall the kites be gathered, each one with her mate. 16: Seek and read from the book of the LORD: Not one of these shall be missing; none shall be without her mate. For the mouth of the LORD has commanded, and his Spirit has gathered them. 17: He has cast the lot for them, his hand has portioned it out to them with the line; they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation they shall dwell in it. Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chalde'ans! For you shall no more be called tender and delicate. 2: Take the millstones and grind meal, put off your veil, strip off your robe, uncover your legs, pass through the rivers. 3: Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your shame shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no man. 4: Our Redeemer -- the LORD of hosts is his name -- is the Holy One of Israel. 5: Sit in silence, and go into darkness, O daughter of the Chalde'ans; for you shall no more be called the mistress of kingdoms. 6: I was angry with my people, I profaned my heritage; I gave them into your hand, you showed them no mercy; on the aged you made your yoke exceedingly heavy. 7: You said, "I shall be mistress for ever," so that you did not lay these things to heart or remember their end. 8: Now therefore hear this, you lover of pleasures, who sit securely, who say in your heart, "I am, and there is no one besides me; I shall not sit as a widow or know the loss of children": 9: These two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day; the loss of children and widowhood shall come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and the great power of your enchantments. 10: You felt secure in your wickedness, you said, "No one sees me"; your wisdom and your knowledge led you astray, and you said in your heart, "I am, and there is no one besides me." 11: But evil shall come upon you, for which you cannot atone; disaster shall fall upon you, which you will not be able to expiate; and ruin shall come on you suddenly, of which you know nothing. 12: Stand fast in your enchantments and your many sorceries, with which you have labored from your youth; perhaps you may be able to succeed, perhaps you may inspire terror. 13: You are wearied with your many counsels; let them stand forth and save you, those who divide the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who at the new moons predict what shall befall you. 14: Behold, they are like stubble, the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before! 15: Such to you are those with whom you have labored, who have trafficked with you from your youth; they wander about each in his own direction; there is no one to save you. ________________________________________________________ Get Your Free, Private Email at http://www.nightmail.com *********************************************************************** Nightmail is sponsored by Friend Finder Personals. With over 5.0 million free personals ads, Friend Finder is the largest personals site on the Internet. Get your free ad and meet people today at http://www.friendfinder.com Never forget a date again! Have you tried ReminderEmail? http://reminderemail.com/go/nmm *********************************************************************** From root at ak47.algebra.com Thu Dec 14 10:02:09 2000 From: root at ak47.algebra.com (root) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:02:09 -0600 Subject: test Message-ID: <200012141802.eBEI29T13981@ak47.algebra.com> test From camael7 at nightmail.com Thu Dec 14 12:03:09 2000 From: camael7 at nightmail.com (gary seven) Date: 14 Dec 2000 12:03:09 -0800 Subject: nambla Message-ID: <20001214200309.23459.qmail@box72.nightmail.com> You are under the Judgement of the LORD GOD OF HOST for the sin of the sea of babies, abortion and infant sacrifice to the devil. You will burn in the presence of the HOLY Angels. The seals are opened. PREPARE FOR YOUR DESTRUCTION CAMAEL ARCHANGEL OF DESTRUCTION THE PLAGUES OF THE LORD FOR THE SIN OF THE SEA OF BABIES UPON ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH IAIAIAIAIOIOIOIOIO I AM BEFORE ALL BUT THE FATHER; MELOCH HEL ALOKIM TPHARET HOD JESAITH; BAHANDO HELESLOIR DEALZAT Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading-trough. Cursed shall be the fruit of your body, and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle, and the young of your flock. Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. "The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and frustration, in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your doings, because you have forsaken me. The LORD will make the pestilence cleave to you until he has consumed you off the land which you are entering to take possession of it. The LORD will smite you with consumption, and with fever, inflammation, and fiery heat, and with drought, and with blasting, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. And the heavens over your head shall be brass, and the earth under you shall be iron. The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down upon you until you are destroyed. "The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them; and you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth; and there shall be no one to frighten them away. The LORD will smite you with the boils of Egypt, and with the ulcers and the scurvy and the itch, of which you cannot be healed. The LORD will smite you with madness and blindness and confusion of mind; and you shall grope at noonday, as the blind grope in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways; and you shall be only oppressed and robbed continually, and there shall be no one to help you. You shall betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, and you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, and you shall not use the fruit of it. Your ox shall be slain before your eyes, and you shall not eat of it; your ass shall be violently taken away before your face, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and there shall be no one to help you. Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and fail with longing for them all the day; and it shall not be in the power of your hand to prevent it. A nation which you have not known shall eat up the fruit of your ground and of all your labors; and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually; so that you shall be driven mad by the sight which your eyes shall see. The LORD will smite you on the knees and on the legs with grievous boils of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. "The LORD will bring you, and your king whom you set over you, to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known; and there you shall serve other gods, of wood and stone. And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword, among all the peoples where the LORD will lead you away. You shall carry much seed into the field, and shall gather little in; for the locust shall consume it. You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worm shall eat them. You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. All your trees and the fruit of your ground the locust shall possess. The sojourner who is among you shall mount above you higher and higher; and you shall come down lower and lower. He shall lend to you, and you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail. All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you, till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded you. They shall be upon you as a sign and a wonder, and upon your descendants for ever. "Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, by reason of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and in want of all things; and he will put a yoke of iron upon your neck, until he has destroyed you. The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you do not understand, a nation of stern countenance, who shall not regard the person of the old or show favor to the young, 1Give ear, you heavens, and I will speak; Let the earth hear the words of my mouth. 32:2My doctrine shall drop as the rain; My speech shall condense as the dew, As the small rain on the tender grass, As the showers on the herb. 32:3For I will proclaim the name of Yahweh: Ascribe greatness to our God. 32:4The Rock, his work is perfect; For all his ways are justice: A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is he. 32:5They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation. 32:6Do you thus requite Yahweh, Foolish people and unwise? Isn't he your father who has bought you? He has made you, and established you. 32:7Remember the days of old, Consider the years of many generations: Ask your father, and he will show you; Your elders, and they will tell you. 32:8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, When he separated the children of men, He set the bounds of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. 32:9For Yahweh's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. 32:10He found him in a desert land, In the waste howling wilderness; He compassed him about, he cared for him, He kept him as the apple of his eye. 32:11As an eagle that stirs up her nest, That flutters over her young, He spread abroad his wings, he took them, He bore them on his feathers. 32:12Yahweh alone did lead him, There was no foreign god with him. 32:13He made him ride on the high places of the earth, He ate the increase of the field; He made him to suck honey out of the rock, Oil out of the flinty rock; 32:14Butter of the herd, and milk of the flock, With fat of lambs, Rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, With the finest of the wheat; Of the blood of the grape you drank wine. 32:15But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked: You have grown fat, you are grown thick, you are become sleek; Then he forsook God who made him, Lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. 32:16They moved him to jealousy with strange gods; With abominations provoked they him to anger. 32:17They sacrificed to demons, which were no God, To gods that they didn't know, To new gods that came up of late, Which your fathers didn't dread. 32:18Of the Rock that became your father, you are unmindful, Have forgotten God who gave you birth. 32:19Yahweh saw it, and abhorred them, Because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters. 32:20He said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness. 32:21They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: I will move them to jealousy with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. 32:22For a fire is kindled in my anger, Burns to the lowest Sheol, Devours the earth with its increase, Sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. 32:23I will heap evils on them; I will spend my arrows on them: 32:24They shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured with burning heat Bitter destruction; The teeth of animals will I send on them, With the poison of crawling things of the dust. 32:25Outside shall the sword bereave, In the chambers terror; It shall destroy both young man and virgin, The suckling with the man of gray hairs. 32:26I said, I would scatter them afar, I would make the memory of them to cease from among men; 32:27Were it not that I feared the provocation of the enemy, Lest their adversaries should judge amiss, Lest they should say, Our hand is exalted, Yahweh has not done all this. 32:28For they are a nation void of counsel, There is no understanding in them. 32:29Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, That they would consider their latter end! 32:30How should one chase a thousand, Two put ten thousand to flight, Except their Rock had sold them, Yahweh had delivered them up? 32:31For their rock is not as our Rock, Even our enemies themselves being judges. 32:32For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, Of the fields of Gomorrah: Their grapes are grapes of gall, Their clusters are bitter: 32:33Their wine is the poison of serpents, The cruel venom of asps. 32:34Isn't this laid up in store with me, Sealed up among my treasures? 32:35Vengeance is mine, and recompense, At the time when their foot shall slide: For the day of their calamity is at hand, The things that are to come on them shall make haste. 32:36For Yahweh will judge his people, Repent himself for his servants; When he sees that their power is gone, There is none remaining, shut up or left at large. 32:37He will say, Where are their gods, The rock in which they took refuge; 32:38Which ate the fat of their sacrifices, And drank the wine of their drink-offering? Let them rise up and help you, Let them be your protection. 32:39See now that I, even I, am he, There is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; There is none who can deliver out of my hand. 32:40For I lift up my hand to heaven, And say, As I live forever, 32:41If I whet my glittering sword, My hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to my adversaries, Will recompense those who hate me. 32:42I will make my arrows drunk with blood, My sword shall devour flesh; With the blood of the slain and the captives, >From the head of the leaders of the enemy. 32:43Rejoice, you nations, with his people: For he will avenge the blood of his servants, Will render vengeance to his adversaries, Will make expiation for his land, for his people. 1: Draw near, O nations, to hear, and hearken, O peoples! Let the earth listen, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it. 2: For the LORD is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host, he has doomed them, has given them over for slaughter. 3: Their slain shall be cast out, and the stench of their corpses shall rise; the mountains shall flow with their blood. 4: All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree. 5: For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Earth, upon the people I have doomed. 6: The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood, it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in America, a great slaughter in the land of its allies. 7: Wild oxen shall fall with them, and young steers with the mighty bulls. Their land shall be soaked with blood, and their soil made rich with fat. 8: For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Children. 9: And the streams of America shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone; her land shall become burning pitch. 10: Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up for ever. >From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. 11: But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it, the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. He shall stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plummet of chaos over its nobles. 12: They shall name it No Kingdom There, and all its princes shall be nothing. 13: Thorns shall grow over its strongholds, nettles and thistles in its fortresses. It shall be the haunt of jackals, an abode for ostriches. 14: And wild beasts shall meet with hyenas, the satyr shall cry to his fellow; yea, there shall the night hag alight, and find for herself a resting place. 15: There shall the owl nest and lay and hatch and gather her young in her shadow; yea, there shall the kites be gathered, each one with her mate. 16: Seek and read from the book of the LORD: Not one of these shall be missing; none shall be without her mate. For the mouth of the LORD has commanded, and his Spirit has gathered them. 17: He has cast the lot for them, his hand has portioned it out to them with the line; they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation they shall dwell in it. Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chalde'ans! For you shall no more be called tender and delicate. 2: Take the millstones and grind meal, put off your veil, strip off your robe, uncover your legs, pass through the rivers. 3: Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your shame shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no man. 4: Our Redeemer -- the LORD of hosts is his name -- is the Holy One of Israel. 5: Sit in silence, and go into darkness, O daughter of the Chalde'ans; for you shall no more be called the mistress of kingdoms. 6: I was angry with my people, I profaned my heritage; I gave them into your hand, you showed them no mercy; on the aged you made your yoke exceedingly heavy. 7: You said, "I shall be mistress for ever," so that you did not lay these things to heart or remember their end. 8: Now therefore hear this, you lover of pleasures, who sit securely, who say in your heart, "I am, and there is no one besides me; I shall not sit as a widow or know the loss of children": 9: These two things shall come to you in a moment, in one day; the loss of children and widowhood shall come upon you in full measure, in spite of your many sorceries and the great power of your enchantments. 10: You felt secure in your wickedness, you said, "No one sees me"; your wisdom and your knowledge led you astray, and you said in your heart, "I am, and there is no one besides me." 11: But evil shall come upon you, for which you cannot atone; disaster shall fall upon you, which you will not be able to expiate; and ruin shall come on you suddenly, of which you know nothing. 12: Stand fast in your enchantments and your many sorceries, with which you have labored from your youth; perhaps you may be able to succeed, perhaps you may inspire terror. 13: You are wearied with your many counsels; let them stand forth and save you, those who divide the heavens, who gaze at the stars, who at the new moons predict what shall befall you. 14: Behold, they are like stubble, the fire consumes them; they cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame. No coal for warming oneself is this, no fire to sit before! 15: Such to you are those with whom you have labored, who have trafficked with you from your youth; they wander about each in his own direction; there is no one to save you. ________________________________________________________ Get Your Free, Private Email at http://www.nightmail.com *********************************************************************** Nightmail is sponsored by Friend Finder Personals. With over 5.0 million free personals ads, Friend Finder is the largest personals site on the Internet. Get your free ad and meet people today at http://www.friendfinder.com Never forget a date again! Have you tried ReminderEmail? http://reminderemail.com/go/nmm *********************************************************************** From honig at sprynet.com Thu Dec 14 12:05:47 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:05:47 -0800 Subject: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001213233508.0084f680@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3.0.6.32.20001213233508.0084f680@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001214120547.0083ae30@pop.sprynet.com> At 03:50 AM 12/14/00 -0800, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >> FOR ALL TO SEE >> It's a spray which renders sealed envelopes transparent, making the >> letters inside as easy to read as postcards. "It leaves an odour for 10 >> to 15 minutes," says the spray's inventor, but, apart from that, "no >> evidence at all" that it's been used. While the manufacturer describes >> "See-Through" as a "non-conductive, non-toxic, environmentally safe >> liquid", human rights activists believe "it's an ethically questionable >> product" which could tempt security forces to bend laws. >> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns226930 > >[Lighter fluid and similar stuff works just fine. That's been known > for over a hundred years... --Perry] Wouldn't this be detectable if you scrawled on the envelope with an ink succeptible to paper chromatography in that solvent? You can make primitive (before cheap float glass) windows by oiling paper... From tom at ricardo.de Thu Dec 14 03:20:45 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:20:45 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A38AD0D.DB078F12@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > At 11:43 AM 12/13/2000 +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: > > example: killing 1 million. jews is evil, because - because of what? > > there's a lot of "becauses", > > I notice you imply that the Nazi liquidation of the Jews has been wildly > exaggerated. stop telling me what I'm implying, will you? I'm quite confident that I know that better than you do. > Killing several million Jews is murderous because killing Jews merely for > being Jewish is like killing me, therefore someone who liquidates the Jews > is likely to kill me, someone who favors rendering society Jew free is > likely to kill me if he had the power. > > Similarly anyone who thinks that Stalin was too soft on the kulaks (read > the various commie criticisms of Stalin) would certainly kill me if he had > the power, for the same reasons as he would kill the kulaks. > > > but none of them works without a subjective set of ethics. > > Bullshit. only if you change the subject, as you did above. all along we've been talking about "evil". suddenly, in your two examples above, the word doesn't appear anymore. pointing out a potential danger is NOT the same as putting a moral label on something. > > you won't find a "because" that has the structure of, say, a > > mathematical proof. > > You cannot prove that iron is iron with the structure of a mathematical > proof, because it is a fact about the world, and empirical fact, ultimately > resting on the evidence of the senses. To deduce the necessary "because", > one must start from the nature of man, and the nature of the world. that's why the "say" is there. it's an example, one possibility, a counter-point to the ethical argument. it's not all-inclusive. > Tom Vogt: > > you are changing the meaning of "we" without noticing it. in the 2nd > > paragraph, "we" means pretty much everyone. in the third, "we" is > > much smaller. for example, the nazis would certainly have agreed to > > calling iron "eisen" (the german word for "iron"). however, they > > didn't call the mass murdering of jews that. > > Then they were wrong, just as they would have been wrong had they called > iron copper. but the point is that the one point can be settled, the other not. it's hard to maintain that iron is copper in face of all evidence. it seems to be very easy to continue believing that "only a dead indian/jew/arab/american/nip/whatever is a good one" even if the whole world is convinced otherwise. > And evidence that they were wrong is that a great many of them died of that > error, for nazis killed more nazis than they did commies, just as the > commies killed more commies than they did nazis, something that anyone > could have foreseen had he recognized that killing Jews was murder, that > killing capitalists for being capitalists was murder. if dying for your belief proves you wrong, xianity has been wrong from the start. (not that I wouldn't agree on that point) but you're playing bait&switch again. you're moving from evil to wrong to murderous as it pleases your argument. try to stick to the one term we're discussing. we can talk about "wrong and right" afterwards, it's no less interesting, but it IS a different point. > Not "deemed to be murder". > > Not "socially constructed as murder". > > It really is murder, really is capricious and unreasonable killing, and > hence it really is indicative of propensity to kill people capriciously, > which is why we feel about murder as we do, feel that it is wrong. so? I don't understand why you're arguing at length for something that's never been questioned. the point is that calling this "evil" is a subjective point and that there is no such thing as "objective evil". I don't care for right and wrong at this point. I don't care for murder or not, or for 1 mio., 10 mio. or 50 mio. dead. it's not that I'm indifferent to those questions, it's just that they simply aren't the topic. > Tom Vogt > > that's because they are so readily abused by them. almost everyone > > is prone to not listening to what someone else really has to say, > > but to draw conclusions quickly. go into any anti-nazi newsgroup and > > argue a careful position, ask for evidence and draw conclusions only > > from facts. want to make a bet on how long it takes until you're > > called a nazi? > > I observe the contrary -- that people who go into anti Nazi newsgroups and > purport to argue a careful position that the Jews were not murdered, or at > least no very many of them, and anyway they had it coming, are generally > not called nazis by most people, even though they quite obviously are > nazis. Same goes, even more strongly, for commies, even those who loudly > announce that they reject Lenin and Stalin, and then proceed to argue that > Lenin and Stalin were softies, that they failed to suppress capitalism with > sufficient vigor. interesting. I've been labeled nazi in german newsgroups pretty much immediatly for pointing out a few real factual errors in someone's argument. maybe the anti-nazi groups over here are much more touchy than yours. > > they spoken not to their own people, but to the people of serbia, > > they could not have "crossed the gap [between is and ought" with > > such ease. > > The people of Serbia were wrong to vote fascists into power, though US > intervention saved them from themselves, so they did not discover for > themselves the consequences. please not start an argument about "the people of X are so stupid that we, the enlightened people of Y have to save them from themselves". I dare to say that permutations of that argument have killed more people in history than any other reason has. it's always those who believe they are the good ones who cause the most evil. feeling yourself divine just pulls out the stops. From root at ak47.algebra.com Thu Dec 14 10:22:34 2000 From: root at ak47.algebra.com (root) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 12:22:34 -0600 Subject: test,ignore Message-ID: <200012141822.eBEIMYV14415@ak47.algebra.com> test From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 14 11:02:13 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:02:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: All these different addresses. In-Reply-To: <3A391539.33F2C3F4@gary.uklinux.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Gary Benson wrote: > How come this list has so many addresses: > > cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, cypherpunks at algebra.com, > cypherpunks at toad.com, cypherpunks at minder.net, > cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com. > > Is any of these the *real* address, or it is a personal choice? They are all *real*. If you would like info then visit, http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html There is a full explanation of who, what, when, where, why, and how. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From schear at sj.counterpane.com Thu Dec 14 13:12:51 2000 From: schear at sj.counterpane.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:12:51 -0800 Subject: Stego (really Markov chains) goes mainstream Message-ID: A BETTER ENCRYPTOR: Forget high-end alphanumeric characters. The latest in encryption technology is deceptively simple - and familiar. A new technology called Spam Mimic enables users to encode short messages in adjective-riddled promotional language. Spam Mimic uses phrases like "become rich within 30 DAYS" and "We will help you SELL MORE and SELL MORE" to bury your real meaning. http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2663573,00.html steve From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 14 13:16:12 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:16:12 -0800 Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <20001214200309.23459.qmail@box72.nightmail.com> References: <20001214200309.23459.qmail@box72.nightmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:03 PM -0800 on 12/14/00, gary seven wrote: > PREPARE FOR YOUR DESTRUCTION Keewwwllll..... An *actual* *biblical* *curse*... Cheers, RAH (I mean, the boils and keloids are bad enough, but when it starts raining *toads*, it's just *simply* the last straw...) -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 14 11:33:54 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:33:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Question re diskette data security In-Reply-To: <3A391C63.9175905@hypertools.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, David Ross wrote: > Any suggestions as to how to read the contents of a standard 1.44 > MByte floppy disk while it is inside a paper & bubblewrap diskette > mailer? What about a CDROM in a similar mailer? Interesting question. > No fair just opening the envelope, since we are going to assume that > the mailer is sealed in such a way as to make it obvious to the > recipient that it was opened in transit. Fair. For the magnetics I'd use a SQUID array. You couldn't use any sort of NMR because of the intense magnetic fields. They'd wipe the disk. Though resolution may be an issue even for the SQUID's. I've only played with one and it was lab, not industrial (ie $$$$), quality. For the CD I'd probably use some sort of NMR at a high scan frequency (ie higher resolution) and create a 3D map of the geometry of the CD (ie where are the edges and where are the bubbles). Then I'd import that into a AutoCAD and use AUTOLisp to overlay a standard template. Then the AUTOLisp routine could deduce what recognizable filesystems were on it. From there it could convert it into a dd sort of image. This would get more complicated for multi-layer disks. Note that using AUTOLisp doesn't bode well in the speed deamon department. > Let's say that we're not real concerned if the snooper finds out > what's on the diskette, but we do want to know _absolutely_for_sure_ > whether or not the snooper does know what's on the disk. So the technique must be repeatable? Or do you mean what would be the mechanisms to verify that it had in fact been snooped (ie we know 'somebody' snooped it)? ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lost at 18nhorny.com Thu Dec 14 13:45:43 2000 From: lost at 18nhorny.com (lost at 18nhorny.com) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:45:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Do you need some? Message-ID: <200012142145.NAA27859@cyberpass.net> Hi this is Marilyn from 18nHorny.com. I sent you an e-mail a while back offering you a Free Password to my triple X teen site but I noticed that you did not take me up on it for some reason :( I thought it would be nice to let you know that the offer still stands:) Just click on the link below and get your FREE PASSWORD!!! http://www.18nhorny.com/live See You Inside! Marilyn If you wish to be removed from this list just reply and type REMOVE as the subject of the message. From carskar at netsolve.net Thu Dec 14 12:05:52 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:05:52 -0600 Subject: About 5yr. log retention Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C743B@cobra.netsolve.net> Comment below: > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Vogt [mailto:tom at ricardo.de] > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:21 AM > To: James A. Donald > Cc: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: Re: RE: Re: About 5yr. log retention Tom Vogt: > > > you won't find a "because" that has the structure of, say, a > > > mathematical proof. James A. Donald: > > You cannot prove that iron is iron with the structure of a > mathematical > > proof, because it is a fact about the world, and empirical > fact, ultimately > > resting on the evidence of the senses. To deduce the > necessary "because", > > one must start from the nature of man, and the nature of the world. Tom Vogt: > that's why the "say" is there. it's an example, one possibility, a > counter-point to the ethical argument. it's not all-inclusive. I disagree. An ethical concept can be proven through rhetoric (though it is a challenge sometimes). Morals, on the other hand, are different. According to your particular side of the debate about the nature of morals, they either cannot be proven at all, or they are proven by widespread internalization and adoption lifespan. But that tends to be a philosopher vs. theologian argument, and that very fact is why I tend to Choate the whole thing and say "bullshit" either way. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2327 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carskar at netsolve.net Thu Dec 14 12:21:23 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:21:23 -0600 Subject: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C743C@cobra.netsolve.net> Doesn't appear to defeat security envelopes either, which have been around for quite some time. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Honig [mailto:honig at sprynet.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 2:06 PM > To: R. A. Hettinga; cypherpunks at algebra.com; cryptography at c2.net > Subject: Re: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... > > > > At 03:50 AM 12/14/00 -0800, R. A. Hettinga wrote: > >> FOR ALL TO SEE > >> It's a spray which renders sealed envelopes transparent, making the > >> letters inside as easy to read as postcards. "It leaves an > odour for 10 > >> to 15 minutes," says the spray's inventor, but, apart from > that, "no > >> evidence at all" that it's been used. While the > manufacturer describes > >> "See-Through" as a "non-conductive, non-toxic, environmentally safe > >> liquid", human rights activists believe "it's an ethically > questionable > >> product" which could tempt security forces to bend laws. > >> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns226930 > > > >[Lighter fluid and similar stuff works just fine. That's been known > > for over a hundred years... --Perry] > > Wouldn't this be detectable if you scrawled on the envelope with > an ink succeptible to paper chromatography in that solvent? > > You can make primitive (before cheap float glass) windows by > oiling paper... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3270 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbnewby at ils.unc.edu Thu Dec 14 11:51:22 2000 From: gbnewby at ils.unc.edu (Greg Newby) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:51:22 -0500 Subject: All these different addresses. In-Reply-To: <3A391539.33F2C3F4@gary.uklinux.net>; from cypher@gary.uklinux.net on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:45:13PM +0000 References: <3A391539.33F2C3F4@gary.uklinux.net> Message-ID: <20001214145122.C23283@ils.unc.edu> Gary, take a look at http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html The short answer is that the list is intentionally distributed, so that there is no single point of failure, censure or seizure. They're all real addresses, though @toad.com is deprecated. The software details for each address may be different, but essentially each list will distribute, to its subscribers, the traffic from all the other addresses. -- Greg PS: Yes, this makes setting up anti-spam filters more difficult for subscribers. PPS: No, ideas about having subscriber-only posting are not likely to be favorably entertained -- check out the list archives for loads of discussion on the topic, as recently as last month. On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 06:45:13PM +0000, Gary Benson wrote: > > How come this list has so many addresses: > > cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, cypherpunks at algebra.com, > cypherpunks at toad.com, cypherpunks at minder.net, > cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com. > > Is any of these the *real* address, or it is a personal choice? > > -- > My real email address is embedded in my public key: 85A8F78B > 6646 CF68 DEA8 07CA CA64 C18C A150 FC2D 85A8 F78B From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 14 13:11:57 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:11:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Question re diskette data security In-Reply-To: <976825204.3a392b74d12cf@webmail.cotse.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Dec 2000 brflgnk at cotse.com wrote: > Not being familiar with NMR, I wonder if it would be equally effective on > CD-ROM, CD-R and/or CD-RW. CD-ROM has a solid physical geometry to it, but > recordables would be less physically definite, I'd think. Antidote to my > ignoragce is welcome. There is all kinds of info no NMR and related technologies on the web. Try google.com and use 'NMR'. In general the material under examination has some intrinsic property that can be measured using EM fields. By measuring the magnitude/transmissivity of the signal through the material one can map that material. The precision is enough to rival x-rays and that sort. The distinction between the phases of the CD material in it's two states (eg density) would interfere in different ways. So the fact that one CD might be re-writable more than once isn't important with respect to what is written on it now (though one could probably do bit archeology just like on magnetic media). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From brflgnk at cotse.com Thu Dec 14 12:20:04 2000 From: brflgnk at cotse.com (brflgnk at cotse.com) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:20:04 -0500 Subject: Question re diskette data security Message-ID: <976825204.3a392b74d12cf@webmail.cotse.com> From j.fulton at juno.com Thu Dec 14 15:21:32 2000 From: j.fulton at juno.com (Joel M Fulton) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:21:32 -0800 Subject: A libertarian protest? Just imagine... Message-ID: <20001214.152132.333.21.j.fulton@juno.com> I'm afraid you'll *have to* imagine a huge group. Maybe one person holding a huge group of signs? Maybe one person signing hugely? Maybe one huge personable sign? "Who pardoned Horiuchi?" Weren't those the little key fob thingies that you had to feed all the time or they died? > =============================================== > URGENT ACTION ITEM! > FROM THE PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT YOU > FREE POT, LOUSY DEBATERS, AND SWEATY, > FOREHEAD-VIEN-POPPING WHITE GUYS HOLLERING > INDISTINCTLY AND TYING THEMSELVES TO BRIDGES... > A GROUP THAT NEEDS NO INTRODUCTION.... > LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.... > THE PIBERTARIAN LARTY > =============================================== > Now imagine a huge group of us holding signs that say: > > > > "Thou shalt not kill. > FBI, that includes you!" > > And: "Who pardoned Horiuchi?" ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Thu Dec 14 13:43:54 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:43:54 -0600 Subject: NMR Basics - A question of resolution Message-ID: <3A393F1A.34987748@ssz.com> http://www.cis.rit.edu/htbooks/nmr/contents.htm --- ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From vd at mailbox.alkor.ru Thu Dec 14 04:58:14 2000 From: vd at mailbox.alkor.ru (Victor Dostov) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:58:14 +0300 Subject: paycash payment system got $10 mln Message-ID: Hi, Bob maybe you find it interesting and/or worth posting 8) Victor. December 7 Russian "Airspace Technology" corporation announced starting of $10mln investment in PayCash payment system. PayCash is a Russian project, developing David Chaum "digital cash" payment technology. PayCash owns 3 patents on technologies used in system and has offices around exUSSR (www.paycash.ru) and in Boston (www.cyphermint.com). Airspace Technology corporation was founded in November, 1998 by Resolution of Government of Russian Federation Federal Program of Restructurisation and Conversion of Defense Industry. Corporation includes 24 enterprises, which are the largest producers and creators of aircraft instruments and systems for aircraft industry. Corporation considers Paycash as a possibility to enter new market and its plans are considerably wider than only financial support of the project. Victor Dostov vd at mailbox.alkor.ru --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From gbroiles at netbox.com Thu Dec 14 16:09:26 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:09:26 -0800 Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <20001214200309.23459.qmail@box72.nightmail.com>; from camael7@nightmail.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:03:09PM -0800 References: <20001214200309.23459.qmail@box72.nightmail.com> Message-ID: <20001214160925.A3928@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:03:09PM -0800, gary seven wrote: > > You are under the Judgement of the LORD GOD OF HOST for the sin of the sea of babies, abortion and infant sacrifice to the devil. You will burn in the presence of the HOLY Angels. The seals are opened. PREPARE FOR YOUR DESTRUCTION > > CAMAEL ARCHANGEL OF DESTRUCTION Camael called back - apparently there was some sort of screw-up with the lists. The destruction was for our neighbor. We get to sit in heaven on fluffy pillows and eat warm chocolate chip cookies for all eternity. I guess you didn't hear. Also, this sort of thing was predicted in Isaiah 19:9 " .. and they who weave networks shall be confounded." Don't get too wound up about it. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From owner-announce at lp.org Thu Dec 14 13:58:56 2000 From: owner-announce at lp.org (Libertarian Party Announcements) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:58:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: URGENT ACTION ITEM Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- =============================================== URGENT ACTION ITEM! FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY =============================================== Watergate Office Building 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100 Washington DC 20037 Website: www.LP.org Email: pressreleases at hq.LP.org For information: (202) 333-0008 ext. 222 =============================================== December 14, 2000 =============================================== FBI agents plan protest at White House on Friday; Libertarians organize counterprotest! **************************** "Protest against the FBI! Meet us at 11:30am on Friday in Lafayette Park in front of the White House." (Further details below.) **************************** Dear Friends: A group of FBI agents plans to protest at noon tomorrow (Friday, Dec. 15) outside the White House to persuade President Clinton not to pardon Leonard Peltier, an American Indian leader convicted of killing two FBI agents in South Dakota in 1975. (See the article in Thursday's USA Today on page 19A, or go to http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20001214/2915953s.htm Americans who believe in equal justice under the law plan a peaceful counterprotest. Our point: If people who kill FBI agents belong in jail, don't FBI agents who kill ordinary Americans belong in jail as well? We are inviting you and your friends and colleagues to join us. We believe that equal justice under the law requires equal prosecution and equal punishment as well. Americans who commit criminal acts should be prosecuted -- regardless of whether they happen to work for the federal government. If Peltier remains in jail, justice requires that federal agents who have committed murder be sentenced to jail time as well. If they go free, so should he. Now imagine a huge group of us holding signs that say: "Thou shalt not kill. FBI, that includes you!" And: "Who pardoned Horiuchi?" We believe that's perfectly fair, because unfortunately, FBI and other federal agents who have killed innocent Americans have repeatedly gone free, in some cases free to kill again. Some examples: * FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi assassinated Vicki Weaver as she held her infant in her cabin at Ruby Ridge, Idaho in 1992. When it appeared Horiuchi would face state manslaughter charges, dozens of his FBI colleagues signed a petition to the court asking that he be set free because a trial would be "a traumatic ordeal for Lon and his family." FBI bureaucrats quietly managed to get the case transferred to a federal court, where a federal judge decided Horiuchi deserved "sovereign immunity" because he was acting "in his capacity as a federal law officer." Horiuchi was set free -- and the trigger-happy sniper later reappeared at Waco. * Dozens of FBI and BATF agents were involved in the shooting and burning deaths of 86 people, including 24 children, at Waco, Texas, on April 19, 1993. Despite photographic evidence that the FBI fired into the burning building, all government agents were exonerated by the government after a government investigation by the Danforth Commission earlier this year. (Is there a pattern here?) * On May 20, 1997, four Marines on an anti-drug patrol gunned down Esequiel Hernandez, Jr., a high school sophomore, as he herded goats on his own property in Redford, Texas, near the Mexico border. The Justice Department later described the killing of the boy, who was never even accused of drug smuggling, as a "tragic event" but refused to charge the Marines with a crime because there was "insufficient evidence that his constitutional rights were intentionally violated." We could cite countless other instances of agents for the FBI, BATF, FBI, DEA, and other agencies literally getting away with murder, but you get the point. It's outrageous enough that none of these government killers have been brought to justice -- but it's almost beyond belief that their colleagues have the nerve to demand that an individual who *has* been convicted and has served 24 years in prison, Leonard Peltier, should remain there while their own guilty colleagues go free. Because we don't want the FBI's ludicrous position that only non-federal agents should be jailed for committing murder to go unanswered, we'll be protesting their protest outside the White House. When 200 FBI agents protest outside the White House, that's news -- so if we're there we'll be news, too! We anticipate significant media coverage for our event, so please: * Dress well (and warmly) * Be there on time: 11:30am on Friday in Lafayette Park across from the White House. Note: Due to construction activities in the park, we may have to meet in our alternate location instead: right in front of the Old Executive Office Building, which is next to the White House. Look for the signs! * Bring as many other people as possible. * DO NOT BRING STICKS to attach to signs, because police can confiscate them as a "weapon" and arrest you. Please pass this e-mail on to your friends immediately, then follow up with a phone call. Time is short and we need to have a good turnout to take advantage of this guaranteed media opportunity. For more information, call George Getz at 202-333-0008 ext. 222. Thank you! George Getz Press Secretary Libertarian Party -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBOjlsodCSe1KnQG7RAQFY8wQAjJoIk+U2vzAohZakmQIqpFNS9+8et+N/ 7d+K+rhL/r1Q+JDwlu88pKWsTFHf4TKosgv9kRxu+2FoJIg86agPeDCOZT98sYqu IheBLWU+oX0DGlnK4GFrg0lOBTzm4vUoxQYCSPm6KJ5LmAIxMxk2sNuAlgWbaRR7 nPfYjoIw8V8= =VV+E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org/ 2600 Virginia Ave. NW, Suite 100 voice: 202-333-0008 Washington DC 20037 fax: 202-333-0072 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For subscription changes, please use the WWW form at: http://www.lp.org/action/email.html Alternatively, you may also send a message to with just the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" in the subject line. ----- End forwarded message ----- From bpayne37 at home.com Thu Dec 14 16:24:29 2000 From: bpayne37 at home.com (bpayne37 at home.com) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:24:29 -0700 Subject: Die Entscheidung ist gefallen Message-ID: <3A3964BD.8B6A82D4@home.com> cypherpunks http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/ http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/ http://www.nmol.com/users/billp/ What would you guys do if something like this was done to you? Thanks so much for helping to make this disaster story public. AND, I think public key was broken in about 1989-91 WITHOUT factoring. best... and, of course, keep up-wind http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/load1.html alla.... but I know what you guys will post! From gil_hamilton at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 17:37:40 2000 From: gil_hamilton at hotmail.com (Gil Hamilton) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:37:40 Subject: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology (fwd) Message-ID: Robert Guerra forwards: >---------- Forwarded Message ---------- >From: Ed Gerck >To: DIGSIG at LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU >Subject: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology [snip] Just an FYI. I was checking this out when I noticed via WHOIS that www.thebell.net www.safevote.com www.ivta.org [and possibly even NMA.com?] are all apparently self-promotional mouthpieces for this Gerck fellow (formerly of the "Meta-Certificate Group", another self-promotion vehicle) who has shown up on cypherpunks and other crypto/security lists from time to time, usually with somewhat crankish ideas. - GH _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From bear at sonic.net Thu Dec 14 17:48:31 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:48:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: All these different addresses. In-Reply-To: <3A391539.33F2C3F4@gary.uklinux.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Gary Benson wrote: >How come this list has so many addresses: > > >Is any of these the *real* address, or it is a personal choice? Yes. Bear From declan at well.com Thu Dec 14 15:05:04 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:05:04 -0500 Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <20001214200309.23459.qmail@box72.nightmail.com>; from camael7@nightmail.com on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:03:09PM -0800 References: <20001214200309.23459.qmail@box72.nightmail.com> Message-ID: <20001214180504.B25821@cluebot.com> Only four lines of curses? Sheesh. Thought we'd rate at least five. -Declan On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:03:09PM -0800, gary seven wrote: > You are under the Judgement of the LORD GOD OF HOST for the sin of the sea of babies, abortion and infant sacrifice to the devil. You will burn in the presence of the HOLY Angels. The seals are opened. PREPARE FOR YOUR DESTRUCTION > > CAMAEL ARCHANGEL OF DESTRUCTION > > THE PLAGUES OF THE LORD FOR THE SIN OF THE “SEA OF BABIES” UPON ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH > > IAIAIAIAIOIOIOIOIO I AM BEFORE ALL BUT THE FATHER; MELOCH HEL ALOKIM TPHARET HOD JESAITH; BAHANDO HELESLOIR DEALZAT > > Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. > Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading-trough. > Cursed shall be the fruit of your body, and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your cattle, and the young of your flock. > Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. > "The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and frustration, in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your doings, because you have forsaken me. > The LORD will make the pestilence cleave to you until he has consumed you off the land which you are entering to take possession of it. > The LORD will smite you with consumption, and with fever, inflammation, and fiery heat, and with drought, and with blasting, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. > And the heavens over your head shall be brass, and the earth under you shall be iron. > The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down upon you until you are destroyed. > "The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them; and you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. > And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth; and there shall be no one to frighten them away. > The LORD will smite you with the boils of Egypt, and with the ulcers and the scurvy and the itch, of which you cannot be healed. > The LORD will smite you with madness and blindness and confusion of mind; > and you shall grope at noonday, as the blind grope in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways; and you shall be only oppressed and robbed continually, and there shall be no one to help you. > You shall betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, and you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, and you shall not use the fruit of it. > Your ox shall be slain before your eyes, and you shall not eat of it; your ass shall be violently taken away before your face, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and there shall be no one to help you. > Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and fail with longing for them all the day; and it shall not be in the power of your hand to prevent it. > A nation which you have not known shall eat up the fruit of your ground and of all your labors; and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually; > so that you shall be driven mad by the sight which your eyes shall see. > The LORD will smite you on the knees and on the legs with grievous boils of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. > "The LORD will bring you, and your king whom you set over you, to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known; and there you shall serve other gods, of wood and stone. > And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword, among all the peoples where the LORD will lead you away. > You shall carry much seed into the field, and shall gather little in; for the locust shall consume it. > You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worm shall eat them. > You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. > You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. > All your trees and the fruit of your ground the locust shall possess. > The sojourner who is among you shall mount above you higher and higher; and you shall come down lower and lower. > He shall lend to you, and you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail. > All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you, till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded you. > They shall be upon you as a sign and a wonder, and upon your descendants for ever. > "Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, by reason of the abundance of all things, > therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and in want of all things; and he will put a yoke of iron upon your neck, until he has destroyed you. > The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you do not understand, > a nation of stern countenance, who shall not regard the person of the old or show favor to the young, > > 1Give ear, you heavens, and I will speak; > Let the earth hear the words of my mouth. > 32:2My doctrine shall drop as the rain; > My speech shall condense as the dew, > As the small rain on the tender grass, > As the showers on the herb. > 32:3For I will proclaim the name of Yahweh: > Ascribe greatness to our God. > 32:4The Rock, his work is perfect; > For all his ways are justice: > A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, > Just and right is he. > 32:5They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; > They are a perverse and crooked generation. > 32:6Do you thus requite Yahweh, > Foolish people and unwise? > Isn't he your father who has bought you? > He has made you, and established you. > 32:7Remember the days of old, > Consider the years of many generations: > Ask your father, and he will show you; > Your elders, and they will tell you. > 32:8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, > When he separated the children of men, > He set the bounds of the peoples > According to the number of the children of Israel. > 32:9For Yahweh's portion is his people; > Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. > 32:10He found him in a desert land, > In the waste howling wilderness; > He compassed him about, he cared for him, > He kept him as the apple of his eye. > 32:11As an eagle that stirs up her nest, > That flutters over her young, > He spread abroad his wings, he took them, > He bore them on his feathers. > 32:12Yahweh alone did lead him, > There was no foreign god with him. > 32:13He made him ride on the high places of the earth, > He ate the increase of the field; > He made him to suck honey out of the rock, > Oil out of the flinty rock; > 32:14Butter of the herd, and milk of the flock, > With fat of lambs, > Rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, > With the finest of the wheat; > Of the blood of the grape you drank wine. > 32:15But Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked: > You have grown fat, you are grown thick, you are become sleek; > Then he forsook God who made him, > Lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. > 32:16They moved him to jealousy with strange gods; > With abominations provoked they him to anger. > 32:17They sacrificed to demons, which were no God, > To gods that they didn't know, > To new gods that came up of late, > Which your fathers didn't dread. > 32:18Of the Rock that became your father, you are unmindful, > Have forgotten God who gave you birth. > 32:19Yahweh saw it, and abhorred them, > Because of the provocation of his sons and his daughters. > 32:20He said, I will hide my face from them, > I will see what their end shall be: > For they are a very perverse generation, > Children in whom is no faithfulness. > 32:21They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; > They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: > I will move them to jealousy with those who are not a people; > I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. > 32:22For a fire is kindled in my anger, > Burns to the lowest Sheol, > Devours the earth with its increase, > Sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. > 32:23I will heap evils on them; > I will spend my arrows on them: > 32:24They shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured with burning heat > Bitter destruction; > The teeth of animals will I send on them, > With the poison of crawling things of the dust. > 32:25Outside shall the sword bereave, > In the chambers terror; > It shall destroy both young man and virgin, > The suckling with the man of gray hairs. > 32:26I said, I would scatter them afar, > I would make the memory of them to cease from among men; > 32:27Were it not that I feared the provocation of the enemy, > Lest their adversaries should judge amiss, > Lest they should say, Our hand is exalted, > Yahweh has not done all this. > 32:28For they are a nation void of counsel, > There is no understanding in them. > 32:29Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, > That they would consider their latter end! > 32:30How should one chase a thousand, > Two put ten thousand to flight, > Except their Rock had sold them, > Yahweh had delivered them up? > 32:31For their rock is not as our Rock, > Even our enemies themselves being judges. > 32:32For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, > Of the fields of Gomorrah: > Their grapes are grapes of gall, > Their clusters are bitter: > 32:33Their wine is the poison of serpents, > The cruel venom of asps. > 32:34Isn't this laid up in store with me, > Sealed up among my treasures? > 32:35Vengeance is mine, and recompense, > At the time when their foot shall slide: > For the day of their calamity is at hand, > The things that are to come on them shall make haste. > 32:36For Yahweh will judge his people, > Repent himself for his servants; > When he sees that their power is gone, > There is none remaining, shut up or left at large. > 32:37He will say, Where are their gods, > The rock in which they took refuge; > 32:38Which ate the fat of their sacrifices, > And drank the wine of their drink-offering? > Let them rise up and help you, > Let them be your protection. > 32:39See now that I, even I, am he, > There is no god with me: > I kill, and I make alive; > I wound, and I heal; > There is none who can deliver out of my hand. > 32:40For I lift up my hand to heaven, > And say, As I live forever, > 32:41If I whet my glittering sword, > My hand take hold on judgment; > I will render vengeance to my adversaries, > Will recompense those who hate me. > 32:42I will make my arrows drunk with blood, > My sword shall devour flesh; > With the blood of the slain and the captives, > >From the head of the leaders of the enemy. > 32:43Rejoice, you nations, with his people: > For he will avenge the blood of his servants, > Will render vengeance to his adversaries, > Will make expiation for his land, for his people. > > > > 1: Draw near, O nations, to hear, > and hearken, O peoples! > Let the earth listen, and all that fills it; > the world, and all that comes from it. > 2: > For the LORD is enraged against all the nations, > and furious against all their host, > he has doomed them, has given them over for slaughter. > 3: > Their slain shall be cast out, > and the stench of their corpses shall rise; > the mountains shall flow with their blood. > 4: > All the host of heaven shall rot away, > and the skies roll up like a scroll. > All their host shall fall, > as leaves fall from the vine, > like leaves falling from the fig tree. > 5: > For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; > behold, it descends for judgment upon Earth, > upon the people I have doomed. > 6: > The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood, > it is gorged with fat, > with the blood of lambs and goats, > with the fat of the kidneys of rams. > For the LORD has a sacrifice in America, > a great slaughter in the land of its allies. > 7: > Wild oxen shall fall with them, > and young steers with the mighty bulls. > Their land shall be soaked with blood, > and their soil made rich with fat. > 8: > For the LORD has a day of vengeance, > a year of recompense for the cause of Children. > 9: > And the streams of America shall be turned into pitch, > and her soil into brimstone; > her land shall become burning pitch. > 10: > Night and day it shall not be quenched; > its smoke shall go up for ever. > >From generation to generation it shall lie waste; > none shall pass through it for ever and ever. > 11: > But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it, > the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. > He shall stretch the line of confusion over it, > and the plummet of chaos over its nobles. > 12: > They shall name it No Kingdom There, > and all its princes shall be nothing. > 13: > Thorns shall grow over its strongholds, > nettles and thistles in its fortresses. > It shall be the haunt of jackals, > an abode for ostriches. > 14: > And wild beasts shall meet with hyenas, > the satyr shall cry to his fellow; > yea, there shall the night hag alight, > and find for herself a resting place. > 15: > There shall the owl nest and lay > and hatch and gather her young in her shadow; > yea, there shall the kites be gathered, > each one with her mate. > 16: > Seek and read from the book of the LORD: > Not one of these shall be missing; > none shall be without her mate. > For the mouth of the LORD has commanded, > and his Spirit has gathered them. > 17: > He has cast the lot for them, > his hand has portioned it out to them with the line; > they shall possess it for ever, > from generation to generation they shall dwell in it. > > > Come down and sit in the dust, > O virgin daughter of Babylon; > sit on the ground without a throne, > O daughter of the Chalde'ans! > For you shall no more be called > tender and delicate. > 2: > Take the millstones and grind meal, > put off your veil, > strip off your robe, uncover your legs, > pass through the rivers. > 3: > Your nakedness shall be uncovered, > and your shame shall be seen. > I will take vengeance, > and I will spare no man. > 4: > Our Redeemer -- the LORD of hosts is his name -- > is the Holy One of Israel. > 5: > Sit in silence, and go into darkness, > O daughter of the Chalde'ans; > for you shall no more be called > the mistress of kingdoms. > 6: > I was angry with my people, > I profaned my heritage; > I gave them into your hand, > you showed them no mercy; > on the aged you made your yoke > exceedingly heavy. > 7: > You said, "I shall be mistress for ever," > so that you did not lay these things to heart > or remember their end. > 8: > Now therefore hear this, you lover of pleasures, > who sit securely, > who say in your heart, > "I am, and there is no one besides me; > I shall not sit as a widow > or know the loss of children": > 9: > These two things shall come to you > in a moment, in one day; > the loss of children and widowhood > shall come upon you in full measure, > in spite of your many sorceries > and the great power of your enchantments. > 10: > You felt secure in your wickedness, > you said, "No one sees me"; > your wisdom and your knowledge > led you astray, > and you said in your heart, > "I am, and there is no one besides me." > 11: > But evil shall come upon you, > for which you cannot atone; > disaster shall fall upon you, > which you will not be able to expiate; > and ruin shall come on you suddenly, > of which you know nothing. > 12: > Stand fast in your enchantments > and your many sorceries, > with which you have labored from your youth; > perhaps you may be able to succeed, > perhaps you may inspire terror. > 13: > You are wearied with your many counsels; > let them stand forth and save you, > those who divide the heavens, > who gaze at the stars, > who at the new moons predict > what shall befall you. > 14: > Behold, they are like stubble, > the fire consumes them; > they cannot deliver themselves > from the power of the flame. > No coal for warming oneself is this, > no fire to sit before! > 15: > Such to you are those with whom you have labored, > who have trafficked with you from your youth; > they wander about each in his own direction; > there is no one to save you. > > > > ________________________________________________________ > Get Your Free, Private Email at http://www.nightmail.com > > *********************************************************************** > > Nightmail is sponsored by Friend Finder Personals. With over > 5.0 million free personals ads, Friend Finder is the largest > personals site on the Internet. Get your free ad and meet people > today at http://www.friendfinder.com > > Never forget a date again! Have you tried ReminderEmail? > http://reminderemail.com/go/nmm > > *********************************************************************** > From lists at politechbot.com Thu Dec 14 15:06:33 2000 From: lists at politechbot.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:06:33 -0500 Subject: A libertarian protest? That'll get all of 10 people Message-ID: <20001214180633.A26955@cluebot.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 94 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sfurlong at acmenet.net Thu Dec 14 15:44:45 2000 From: sfurlong at acmenet.net (Steve Furlong) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:44:45 -0500 Subject: nambla Message-ID: <3A395B6D.B3FFF48D@acmenet.net> Cornhole7 wrote: >You are under the Judgement of the LORD GOD OF HOST for the sin of the sea of babies, abortion and infant sacrifice to the devil. You will burn in the presence of the HOLY Angels. The seals are opened. PREPARE FOR YOUR DESTRUCTION > >CAMAEL ARCHANGEL OF DESTRUCTION > >THE PLAGUES OF THE LORD FOR THE SIN OF THE “SEA OF BABIES” UPON ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH > >IAIAIAIAIOIOIOIOIO I AM BEFORE ALL BUT THE FATHER; MELOCH HEL ALOKIM TPHARET HOD JESAITH; BAHANDO HELESLOIR DEALZAT Old McCamael had a curse, E-I-E-I-O I'm trying to figure out the relationship in ol' Cornhole's mind between Nambla and abortion. I'd think that Nambla would oppose aborting male fetuses, at least, because in five or six years those fetuses will grow into sex puppets. Maybe Cornhole was unsuccessfully "partial-birth" aborted: they sucked out his brain but he lived anyway. From cypher at gary.uklinux.net Thu Dec 14 10:45:13 2000 From: cypher at gary.uklinux.net (Gary Benson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:45:13 +0000 Subject: All these different addresses. Message-ID: <3A391539.33F2C3F4@gary.uklinux.net> How come this list has so many addresses: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, cypherpunks at algebra.com, cypherpunks at toad.com, cypherpunks at minder.net, cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com. Is any of these the *real* address, or it is a personal choice? -- My real email address is embedded in my public key: 85A8F78B 6646 CF68 DEA8 07CA CA64 C18C A150 FC2D 85A8 F78B From reeza at flex.com Thu Dec 14 21:29:30 2000 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:29:30 -1000 Subject: (sans sujet) In-Reply-To: <3A253E82.5292D704@sunder.net> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001214192756.00bf67e0@flex.com> [belated] At 12:36 PM 11/29/00 -0500, sunder wrote: > >Olivierreni at aol.com wrote: >> >> Hie, >> >> Do you know a site where i can know how to make bombs ? >> >> Ciao Olivier > >Try: http://www.fbi.gov They'll teach you how. I was gonna suggest Parris Island, http://www.marinecorps.gov/parris/recruit From schear at lvcm.com Thu Dec 14 19:57:48 2000 From: schear at lvcm.com (Steve Schear) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 19:57:48 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001213232539.00a7a120@idiom.com> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001214195552.040f5560@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:25 PM 12/13/00 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >A gateway from alt.anonymous.messages might be fun anyway. >Back when people read Usenet on their own machines, >instead of getting it from an ISP via NNTP clients, >Usenet groups gave readers Pretty Good Obscurity. >That might still be the case at universities or companies >that maintain their own news feeds, but there aren't a lot any more, >especially since a full newsfeed takes multiple T1s full-time. Ahh, but one can remain anonymous in reading the Usenet feed if one subscribes to one of the satellite broadcast services (often used by ISPs in developing nations where bandwidth is expensive). steve From garygq at gnetquarters.com Thu Dec 14 20:03:41 2000 From: garygq at gnetquarters.com (garygq at gnetquarters.com) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 20:03:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Special Vacation Offers!!" Message-ID: <200012150403.UAA29786@cyberpass.net> The Best In Travel -- http://www.gnetquarters.com/travelocity.html http://www.gnetoffices.com/airtravel.html Airlines - Railway - Car...We Provide online airfare airline tickets travel cheap flights plane tickets airfares rail tickets, hotel accommodations, and car reservations online Making travel reservations through Travelocity.com is FREE.�Find the lowest fare or best schedule on over 400 airlines worldwide, including Southwest Airlines. The latest on airline fare sales and discounts and other news from the world of travel.�Find just the car you need from over 50 rental car companies worldwide.� Tell us how much you want to spend and we'll show you where you can go. Travelocity.com Best Fare Finder allows you to select your price and airline.�The calendar shows you when the fare is offered.��Whether you are looking for a weekend getaway or an all-inclusive resort, our collection of packaged Vacations and Cruises will help make your planning a breeze! � Special Vacation Offers!! http://www.gnetquarters.com/travelocity.html http://www.gnetoffices.com/airtravel.html From freematt at coil.com Thu Dec 14 18:07:57 2000 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:07:57 -0500 Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <20001214180504.B25821@cluebot.com> References: <20001214200309.23459.qmail@box72.nightmail.com> <20001214180504.B25821@cluebot.com> Message-ID: Our father, who's art is in porn ; Halloween by Thy name; Thy kingdom Cum; Thy wife will be done, on earth as she were in a whore house. Give us this day our daily blow job; and forgive us our sales taxes, as we forgive those who tax against us, and lead us not into D.C. ; but deliver us from Church. Amen. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month) Matthew Gaylor, 1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd., PMB 176, Columbus, OH 43229 (614) 313-5722 Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/ ************************************************************************** From declan at well.com Thu Dec 14 18:08:24 2000 From: declan at well.com (Declan McCullagh) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:08:24 -0500 Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: References: <20001214180504.B25821@cluebot.com> <20001214200309.23459.qmail@box72.nightmail.com> <20001214180504.B25821@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20001214210805.015b7ce0@mail.well.com> Matt, I didn't know you were the religious type! -Declan At 21:07 12/14/2000 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote: >Our father, who's art is in porn ; Halloween by Thy name; Thy kingdom Cum; >Thy wife will be done, on earth as she were in a whore house. Give us this >day our daily blow job; and forgive us our sales taxes, as we forgive >those who tax against us, and lead us not into D.C. ; but deliver us from >Church. Amen. > > >Regards, Matt- From tcmay at got.net Thu Dec 14 22:23:17 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:23:17 -0800 Subject: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001213233508.0084f680@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: At 3:50 AM -0800 12/14/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 11:35 PM -0600 on 12/13/00, by way of believer at telepath.com wrote: > > >> FOR ALL TO SEE >> It's a spray which renders sealed envelopes transparent, making the >> letters inside as easy to read as postcards. "It leaves an odour for 10 >> to 15 minutes," says the spray's inventor, but, apart from that, "no >> evidence at all" that it's been used. While the manufacturer describes >> "See-Through" as a "non-conductive, non-toxic, environmentally safe >> liquid", human rights activists believe "it's an ethically questionable >> product" which could tempt security forces to bend laws. > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns226930 April 1st is many months off, so why this? Tools for making envelopes transparent have been in use for many decades, perhaps a century or more. Bamford and Kahn, IIRC, discuss varius government agencies during WWII and later steaming envelopes--the so-called "Flaps and Seals" folks. They may have alluded to freon sprays and all the newer methods, but it was pretty clear that Flaps and Seals was not limited to just "steaming." I saw sprays used for making envelopes transparent sold in novelty stores and catalogs back in the 70s. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From bmm at minder.net Thu Dec 14 19:23:37 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:23:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001213232539.00a7a120@idiom.com> Message-ID: The list is gatewayed from/to alt.anonymous.messages, which provides a bit more cover. I agree that it would be more useful as an extension of a.a.m than standalone. Thanks, -Brian On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > It's cute, but it won't wash. > The problem is that a list like this doesn't provide any > Obscurity to its users unless there are a large number of subscribers. > One reader out of a thousand is slightly Obscure. > One reader out of three just isn't. > Adding large numbers of posters to the list doesn't help, > though you could use it as a dead drop for those NYTimes subscriptions > and egroups subscriptions if you wanted. > > A gateway from alt.anonymous.messages might be fun anyway. > Back when people read Usenet on their own machines, > instead of getting it from an ISP via NNTP clients, > Usenet groups gave readers Pretty Good Obscurity. > That might still be the case at universities or companies > that maintain their own news feeds, but there aren't a lot any more, > especially since a full newsfeed takes multiple T1s full-time. From freematt at coil.com Thu Dec 14 19:43:13 2000 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:43:13 -0500 Subject: Final Carnivore Report Offers No New Answers Message-ID: This just in from US House Majority Leader Dick Armey: - Final Carnivore Report Offers No New Answers A newly released, final version of the report on the Carnivore cybersnooping system offers no assurance that online transactions will be kept confidential. http://freedom.gov/library/technology/carn-review3.asp US House Majority Leader Dick Armey made the following comments about the newly released, final report on the Carnivore cybersnooping system: This superficial review doesn't get to the heart of the matter. It does nothing to restore the confidence that Americans should have in the confidentiality of their online transactions. Why should average Internet users have to wonder whether a rogue agent could snoop through their emails and other online transactions? If this Administration were actually interested in an honest evaluation of Carnivore, it would have shut the system down until the serious privacy concerns had been adequately addressed. Instead, this review by a team with clear ties to this Administration raises more concerns than it answers. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month) Matthew Gaylor, 1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd., PMB 176, Columbus, OH 43229 (614) 313-5722 Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/ ************************************************************************** From rah at shipwright.com Thu Dec 14 23:13:35 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 23:13:35 -0800 Subject: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001213233508.0084f680@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: At 10:23 PM -0800 on 12/14/00, Tim May wrote: > April 1st is many months off, so why this? :-). Let's see now, you're about the third or fourth person to note the same think (Stewart, Broiles, for example), on this very thread. The first being, of course, Perry... Yes, I'd heard about the flaps and seals folks. Yes, probably seven or eight times. From you, alone, over the years. Somehow I figured, if the snake-oil humor relevant, then maybe these quys had done something new, chemically, that made this iteration of the same old idea a little different. Cheers, RAH (In the meantime, are you *sure* you really want to start this kind of snide shit again, Tim? It seems to me you and I were doing rather nicely the last 9 or 10 months or so...) -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 14 23:51:21 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 23:51:21 -0800 Subject: All these different addresses. In-Reply-To: <3A391539.33F2C3F4@gary.uklinux.net> References: <3A391539.33F2C3F4@gary.uklinux.net> Message-ID: Those who do not learn from history are doomed to be told "Check the Archives". >How come this list has so many addresses: > >cypherpunks at cyberpass.net, cypherpunks at algebra.com, >cypherpunks at toad.com, cypherpunks at minder.net, >cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com. > >Is any of these the *real* address, or it is a personal choice? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Dec 14 23:58:52 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 23:58:52 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <016501c05f35$986d9e00$0100a8c0@nandts> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001214235852.009d9680@idiom.com> At 09:35 PM 12/5/00 -0600, Neil Johnson wrote: >After e-mails were used by the DOJ as "evidence" that Micro$oft was guilty >of "anti-competitive" practices, it was quietly proposed by legal department >at a company I know of that the e-mail system be configured to automatically >delete users e-mail after a set time period, and not allow the easy off-line >storage of messages. It was handily rejected by the IT department as >impossible to implement and shouted down by many managers who didn't want >their CYA e-mails automatically deleted. That's one of the applications that Disappearing Ink's system is designed for. Email is stored in encrypted form, with the decryption requiring an access key from Disappearing or a similar corporate server, and the access key is regularly destroyed unless there's a specific order to retain it. This doesn't stop you from saving the mail outside the system, and it doesn't stop a court order from saying "keep all your current and future email", but it means that routine mail is routinely deleted, unless you go out of your way to move it to your CYA server or your Keep_for_later_use storage. But it substantially reduces the risk of fishing expeditions going after everything you've ever written and every backup tape you've got. Does this integrate well with Microsoft Outlook Mail gi-mongous undocumented-binary-format mailboxes? (Actually, it probably does quite well - not clear if it works well with the Exchange mail server, but MS already encourages people to use binary proprietary attachments instead of inline text. You do have to deal with the network firewall issue, but I think they've got proxy capabilities.) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Thu Dec 14 23:59:12 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 23:59:12 -0800 Subject: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001213233508.0084f680@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: At 11:13 PM -0800 12/14/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >At 10:23 PM -0800 on 12/14/00, Tim May wrote: > > >> April 1st is many months off, so why this? > >:-). > >Let's see now, you're about the third or fourth person to note the same >think (Stewart, Broiles, for example), on this very thread. The first >being, of course, Perry... > >Yes, I'd heard about the flaps and seals folks. Yes, probably seven or >eight times. From you, alone, over the years. Sorry I didn't see the other responses, who pointed out the same things I pointed out, basically. I was away for a couple of days and was catching up on a lot of mail. I'm just amazed that "New Scientist" or anyone else would not know that making paper transparent is trivial. I may take their "What if atoms don't actually exist?" sorts of cover stories (quantum weirdness, stuff from nothingness, etc.) less seriously. > >(In the meantime, are you *sure* you really want to start this kind of >snide shit again, Tim? It seems to me you and I were doing rather nicely >the last 9 or 10 months or so...) It wasn't "snide shit." Reread what I wrote. But, since you are apparently so willing to be offended, and have more than several times brought up some notion that we have some sort of truce, let me disabuse you of this by saying "Fuck off." --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From commerce at home.com Thu Dec 14 21:21:19 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 00:21:19 -0500 Subject: nambla References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010122171103.02333ec0@mail.eisa.net.au> Message-ID: <014801c06656$db9e7730$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Harrop" > ARE YOU SERIOUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > At 07:00 15/12/00, gary seven wrote: > >You are under the Judgement of the LORD GOD OF HOST > > for the sin of the sea of babies, abortion and infant sacrifice to > > the devil. You will burn in the presence of the HOLY Angels. > > The seals are opened. PREPARE FOR YOUR DESTRUCTION Are you claiming that your destruction by the Lord God of Host for the sin of the sea of babies, abortion and infant sacrifice isn't a serious matter? That sea of babies thing probably pissed him right off. Just try and tell me you can fill a sea with babies you have conceived only within the holy purity of marriage! From mjohnson1976 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 15 00:56:03 2000 From: mjohnson1976 at hotmail.com (Micheal Johnson) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 00:56:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Account Expired Message-ID: <419.436875.16082361mjohnson1976@hotmail.com> Greetings, Due to account inactivity, you have been removed from the following Hits-4-U sponsored e-mail news groups: {Personal Protection Network} {Classified Spy Product Releases} {Classified Stun-Gun Technology} {FBI Most Wanted Post} You will no longer receive correspondance from our news group . Account Number: 46344576694734 Removal Confirmation Number: 8454528037178 Thank you, Michael Johnson, Editor Personal Protection Network Shock Treatment Security Products (Stun guns, pepper sprays, and spy products) http://shocktreatment.4mg.com Please visit the above link to re-subscribe. Please do not reply to this notification as our server is programmed to recognize all in-comming e-mails as auto-responders and will delete them. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Dec 15 05:28:42 2000 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 05:28:42 -0800 Subject: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001213233508.0084f680@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1256 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 15 10:25:33 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:25:33 -0800 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. [Re: This is why HTML email is evil.] In-Reply-To: <200012151454.GAA32616@user5.hushmail.com> References: <200012151454.GAA32616@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:40 AM -0500 12/15/00, auto58194 at hushmail.com wrote: >Tim May wrote: >> >> In a free society, free economy, then employers and employees are >> much more flexible. A solid contributor would not be fired for >> something so trivial as having a porn picture embedded in some minor >> way. Hell, a solid contributor probably wouldn't be fired even for >> sending MPEG porn movies to his buddies! >> > >Depends on your definition of a free society, free economy. In my definition, > free society, free economy property holders are free to use the power derived >from their property in order to protect their property and also to advance >their own agenda. > >I don't know if your example involved a claim the Personnel Dept. bimbo >was acting as an agent of the company's property holders or not, but that's >just the advancing agenda situation. The reason the company now prohibits all sorts of activities, and the reason the Personnel Commissar is inspecting offices, is because of _externalities_ like lawsuits, harassment charges, etc. In a free society, these externalities would vanish. >I suspect you'd be happier if property >holders didn't hire people prone to making decisions advancing their own >individual agendas. Unfortunately, it's hard to find perfect people and >it's still the decision of the property holder to hire them and allow them >to make decisions without supervision. You seem to fundammentally misunderstand the situation. The reason the Personnel Commissar is ordering sensitivity training, workshops, and is requiring that posters of Brittny Spears be removed from office walls is because government and lawyers have made companies liable in various ways for "discriminatory" or "sexist" or suchlike behaviors. One of my fellow engineers at Intel had a large poster of the famous early 80s porn star, "Seka," on his walls--she was, in this poster, clothed, albeit skimpily. Some of the secretaries clucked, and retaliated by putting up Chippendales calendars, including full frontal nudity. Would such things be tolerated today? Nope. And not because of the personal choices of a particluarl Personnel bimbo. Nope, the fear is of lawsuits. This was my point about a free society. > >Even so, a property holder is equally free to protect their property by >deciding that firing an individual accused of an action is less of a cost >than the legal actions and/or bad press that might otherwise result. Firing >actions don't have to be rational and property owners are free to be gutless. You're really missing the point, aren't you? Go back and think about the issues more deeply. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 15 10:49:37 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:49:37 -0800 Subject: Texaco secrets received In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:15 AM -0800 12/15/00, DHT_USA wrote: >:: >Request-Remailing-To: tubbsdh at texaco.com > >Alpha 501 121500, end. > Confirm receipt of information regarding Texaco's refinery output. Need additional information re: effects of disabling Motiva refineries as per plan. Payment deposited, Cayman bank. From bmm at minder.net Fri Dec 15 07:52:11 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:52:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: minder.net is back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Traffic should be flowing normally. Thanks, -Brian On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, BMM wrote: > minder.net's ISP's T3 to sprintlink has been down for ~12 hours. This has > caused us to disappear from large portions of the 'net (hence the 30k > messages stacked up in the mail queue). > > Thanks, > > -Brian > > On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > Been receiving a lot of bounces from minder.net. I've removed the site > > from the CDR feed for the time being. > > > > Anyone know what the problem might be outside of a DNS issue? > > From Netenhance at sofast.net Fri Dec 15 09:52:18 2000 From: Netenhance at sofast.net (Dwayne Parsons) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:52:18 -0700 Subject: Inquiry RE: audiobook reviewers Message-ID: <000801c066bf$c51135c0$9ca378cc@pavilion> Found your request on Editor's Choice. I'm a professional writer, avid reader and believe in audiobooks. Spend a lot of time driving across rural Montana. What's your terms? Can you be more specific if your need still exists. I'm capable and interested and have done numerous book reviews from print. Dwayne Parsons netenhance at sofast.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 777 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 15 10:55:14 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 10:55:14 -0800 Subject: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001215112527.01562cf0@mail.well.com> References: <20001215055935.B796@cluebot.com> <4.3.0.20001215112527.01562cf0@mail.well.com> Message-ID: At 11:26 AM -0500 12/15/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>Ah, sorry for not explaining. I provided a link to a photo of the >>particular Fed (of the NIPC) who said that, and the event at which >>he did. No article on the topic, though you can find out more about >>the event at netspionage.com, I believe. --Declan >> >>>BTW the first things the Feds are now saying when they speak in public >>>(http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-17/aba-netspionage-broadcast.html) >>>is that they do not come in and cart off everything you own. At least >> >that's the latest spin. :) I have no idea what they are saying now, or then, but the "cart off everything you own" has never been a practical reality. Most folks have too much stuff, so the Feds are not interested in clearing a place of everything. I assume this notion got started, at least in our community, during the Steve Jackson Games of a decade or so ago. In that case, the Feds took everything in the office they figured might be helpful...computers, disk drives, even printers. Thrown into boxes, more or less. Lots of damage. Presumably they left office chairs and pen holders. When they raided Bell, they didn't take everything in the house he was in. So, I agree with Ray Dillinger. I don't see any news here. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 15 11:54:45 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:54:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. [Re: This is why HTML email is evil.] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: >The reason the company now prohibits all sorts of activities, and the >reason the Personnel Commissar is inspecting offices, is because of >_externalities_ like lawsuits, harassment charges, etc. In a free >society, these externalities would vanish. >Nope, the fear is of lawsuits. Do you posit that people should not be free to file lawsuits? Why do you regard harassment charges as external? Basically the goal of a business owner is to have people capable of both producing and working together. If you have two workers who are both productive but who can't work together (for example, one guy who makes dirty jokes and sends porn movies around, and one woman who takes mighty offense and brings charges against anyone who acts like that) you have to decide which one to get rid of. As more and more women are in the workforce, the possible cost in productivity from such obnoxious behavior rises; If the company is allowing the guy to be offensive on company time or using company email accounts, they wind up offending a large part of their workforce. They stand to lose a lot of other productive employees by keeping one productive jerk on board. And this is a completely separate issue from the legal liability. The legal liability, again, is not an externality: The company has to allow its resources to be used in this way in order to become liable. The company could, to be fair, refuse to allow its resources to be used to file the suits -- but that could not stop the suits from being filed on personal time, any more than refusing to allow company resources to be used to spread porn can stop a jerk from spreading porn on personal time. >the Personnel Commissar is ordering sensitivity training, workshops, >and is requiring that posters of Brittny Spears be removed from >office walls is because government and lawyers have made companies >liable in various ways for "discriminatory" or "sexist" or suchlike >behaviors. The personnel commissar is ordering sensitivity training, workshops, etc, specifically to get rid of troublemakers, keep the workplace running smoothly, and enhance the bottom line. When employees won't work smoothly together, the company suffers. If the company allows its stuff to be used for obnoxious behavior, the company becomes liable for obnoxious behavior. These are not externalities, these are just reflections of having a more diverse workforce. Someone cracking "honky" jokes doesn't cause much of a problem in an all-black workplace. But if half your workforce is white, One guy cracking those same racist jokes can rip the place apart and destroy productivity. As business owner, your choice if you want people being productive again is to get rid of half your workforce or get rid of one guy. The choice is usually easy. We're seeing the same kind of thing as the proportion of women in the workplace continues to rise. Bear From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 15 12:36:56 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:36:56 -0800 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. [Re: This is why HTML email is evil.] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:54 AM -0800 12/15/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > >>The reason the company now prohibits all sorts of activities, and the >>reason the Personnel Commissar is inspecting offices, is because of >>_externalities_ like lawsuits, harassment charges, etc. In a free >>society, these externalities would vanish. > >>Nope, the fear is of lawsuits. > >Do you posit that people should not be free to file lawsuits? Yes, in these cases, they should _NOT_ be able to file lawsuits. -- If an employee doesn't like the calendar that another employee has on his desk, she can talk to others in the company. Maybe they'll have it removed. But she CANNOT use the courts to intervene in a matter of how the company's owners deal with their property. -- and so on, for other examples I could construct. Lawsuits should only be "allowed" when some matter of law is involved. > > >Why do you regard harassment charges as external? Basically >the goal of a business owner is to have people capable of both >producing and working together. If you have two workers who >are both productive but who can't work together (for example, >one guy who makes dirty jokes and sends porn movies around, and >one woman who takes mighty offense and brings charges against >anyone who acts like that) you have to decide which one to get >rid of. Sure, one of them may have to go. Such was it 20 years ago, such was it 100 years ago. But the court system and EEOC sorts of offices were not involved until in recent decades. Whether I as a business owner allow "girlie calendars" on the walls of my shop is no business of the State. > >As more and more women are in the workforce, the possible cost >in productivity from such obnoxious behavior rises; If the >company is allowing the guy to be offensive on company time >or using company email accounts, they wind up offending a large >part of their workforce. They stand to lose a lot of other >productive employees by keeping one productive jerk on board. Such "possible cost in productivity" issues are matters for the business owners to decide upon, not the courts, and not regulatory agencies. > >And this is a completely separate issue from the legal liability. >The legal liability, again, is not an externality: The company >has to allow its resources to be used in this way in order to >become liable. The company could, to be fair, refuse to allow >its resources to be used to file the suits -- but that could not >stop the suits from being filed on personal time, any more than >refusing to allow company resources to be used to spread porn >can stop a jerk from spreading porn on personal time. I give up. Reading your stuff here makes me realize why it is hopeless to argue with those infected with legalitus. You will make a fine lawyer. Meanwhile, I have decided life is too short to waste it by reading your legalisms, so I am must put you in my filter file. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From mmotyka at lsil.com Fri Dec 15 12:59:40 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:59:40 -0800 Subject: Final Carnivore Report Offers No New Answers Message-ID: <3A3A863C.CDD5B26E@lsil.com> It's all well and good to hear this coming from a Congressman but this is a Republican Congressman who is using it as a opportunity to attack a Democratic Administration : should we read anything into this statement regarding some significant difference between the two parties in regards privacy and 4th Ammendment issues? Hardly. Mike > This just in from US House Majority Leader Dick Armey: > > - Final Carnivore Report Offers No New Answers > A newly released, final version of the report on the Carnivore > cybersnooping system offers no assurance that online transactions > will be kept confidential. > > http://freedom.gov/library/technology/carn-review3.asp > > US House Majority Leader Dick Armey made the following comments about > the newly released, final report on the Carnivore cybersnooping > system: This superficial review doesn't get to the heart of the > matter. It does nothing to restore the confidence that Americans > should have in the confidentiality of their online transactions. > > Why should average Internet users have to wonder whether a rogue > agent could snoop through their emails and other online transactions? > > If this Administration were actually interested in an honest > evaluation of Carnivore, it would have shut the system down until the > serious privacy concerns had been adequately addressed. Instead, this > review by a team with clear ties to this Administration raises more > concerns than it answers. > > Regards, Matt- > From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 15 04:14:17 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:14:17 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A3A0B19.76DBB062@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > Tom Vogt > > all along we've been talking about "evil". suddenly, in your two > > examples above, the word doesn't appear anymore. > > The word murder does appear. Murder is defined as "wrongful killing.", > hence is by definition a particular kind of evil. Indeed it is the > archetypal example of evil, the type specimen of evil. weird, a couple thousand years of history disagree with you. until the very recent past, pretty much everyone was sure that killing enemies, unbelievers or other people isn't "evil". probably isn't even "murder". ironically, you seem to agree somewhat that bombing a couple hectars of an "evil nation" isn't murder, either... > The point is that to know whether a killing indicates the killer is likely > to kill me, I have to make a moral judgement of the killing, to determine > that the killing is morally similar to killing me. I never disagreed on the pragmatic point. however, there's still a vast difference between "I'm afraid X might kill me, too" and "X is evil". two examples: you can be afraid of becoming victim of a natural disaster, but I don't think you'd label that evil. OTOH I'm fairly sure that someone can earn the "evil" label without killing a single being. > James A. Donald: > > > Then they were wrong, just as they would have been wrong had they > > > called iron copper. > > Tom Vogt: > > but the point is that the one point can be settled, the other not. > > Surely the events of the twentieth century settled the matter > decisively. Those who believe otherwise are monsters or fools, knaves or > dupes. When people die as a result of their error, others should learn. nice, but old trick of passing judgement on someone in such a form that it also invalidates his (possibly different) judgement on you. but it's just cheap dialectics, not "truth". remember that many more non-germans died in WW2 than germans. we really shouldn't use body-count as a measure of truth. during the invasion of poland, the polish casualties were several orders of magnitude higher than the german ones. according to your logic, these people died because they believed erreneous that they should defend themselves against german aggression. according to your logic, they were fools and others should have learned from their errors. france definitely shouldn't have defended itself, should it? but they were fools, according to your argument, and died as a result of their error. others should have learned and stopped opposing the germans. you can't judge history while it's still in the making. unfortunately, history is pretty much always unfinished. some ancient greek ideas that were burried 2000 years ago were resurrected earlier this century. there's no "right" and "wrong" in history, only events. we are the ones who put signs unto the events, blinding ourselves to the fact that anything a subject does is by definition subjective. > > it's hard to maintain that iron is copper in face of all evidence. > > it seems to be very easy to continue believing that "only a dead > > indian/jew/arab/american/nip/whatever is a good one" even if the > > whole world is convinced otherwise. > > If this was so, why do regimes that propagate evil ideas find it so vital > to control all sources of information? Their hostility to empirical > evidence, their hostility to the mere act of paying attention to empirical > evidence, shows that it is not so easy to maintain false moral beliefs in > the face of the evidence, shows that most people can not only easily cross > the is-ought gap, but scarcely refrain from doing so. "evil regimes" aren't the only ones who try to control information as much as possible. pretty much every corporation believes that it needs an extensive PR machinery in order to control the flow of information about itself. "evil regimes" just couple this desire with the ability to actually conduct an extensive control. then again, I don't quite see your point here. you happily proceed to define qualities of "evil", skipping by the very step of declaring something evil that's the whole point of this discussion. > Anyone who propagates false moral beliefs also propagates false emprical > claims supporting those false moral beliefs -- hence for example the > continual debates where Marxists claim that Marx's predictions are coming > true. If there was an is ought gap, they would find it unnecessary to so > tightly couple moral and factual claims. who decides what is wrong and right in moral beliefs? you ever had any sex outside a marriage? not long ago, that was widely accepted as being one of the worst sins imaginable. there's no "right" or "wrong" in morals. there's just people who declare certain things to be one or the other. oh, and don't rest your points on anyone's predictions not having come true. for every marx who made predictions that didn't happen, there's 10 non-marxs who did the same. > > > And evidence that they were wrong is that a great many of them > > > died of that error, for nazis killed more nazis than they did > > > commies, just as the commies killed more commies than they did > > > nazis, something that anyone could have foreseen had he recognized > > > that killing Jews was murder, that killing capitalists for being > > > capitalists was murder. > > But they did not die for their beliefs. Had they died fighting jews they > would of died for their beliefs. Instead they were killed by their fellow > nazis. your point is? that the percentage of "friendly fire" defines what is right and what is wrong? > > but you're playing bait&switch again. you're moving from evil to > > wrong to murderous as it pleases your argument. > > Evil, wrong, and murderous are not different categories. "Murderous" is > the classic example of evil, and when I talk of "wrong" I say that the > Trotsky's moral judgements were in error. sorry, I disagree heavily. "1+1=3" is wrong, but neither evil nor murderous. then, there's a lot of "sinful", "wrong" or "evil" things in every culture that have nothing to do with murder. and there's even murder that is not regarded as wrong or evil by lots of people, such as the death sentence. these things may be related, but they're definitely not identical. > > so? I don't understand why you're arguing at length for something > > that's never been questioned. the point is that calling this "evil" > > is a subjective point and that there is no such thing as "objective > > evil". > > Those who are aware of the existence of objective evil predicted that the > nazis and the commies would murder friend and enemy alike. Those blind to > this obvious fact failed to make that prediction. that's two broad categories and two broad predictions. you could just as well write "that's just the way it is". I'm tired of this, so let's cut it short: if "evil" is objective, there ought to be a way to measure it. an objective test that says "evil" or "not evil". name it. From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 15 04:20:48 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:20:48 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C743B@cobra.netsolve.net> Message-ID: <3A3A0CA0.46A6E905@ricardo.de> "Carskadden, Rush" wrote: > I disagree. An ethical concept can be proven through rhetoric (though > it is a challenge sometimes). Morals, on the other hand, are > different. According to your particular side of the debate about the > nature of morals, they either cannot be proven at all, or they are > proven by widespread internalization and adoption lifespan. the first. morals are a way of life on the society scale. calling them "good" or "bad" makes about as much sense as judging humans on their hair length or eye colour. From ichudov at galaxy.galstar.com Fri Dec 15 11:48:06 2000 From: ichudov at galaxy.galstar.com (Igor Chudov) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:48:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: hi Message-ID: <200012151948.NAA26026@galaxy.galstar.com> hi From commerce at home.com Fri Dec 15 10:52:20 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:52:20 -0500 Subject: Inquiry RE: audiobook reviewers References: <000801c066bf$c51135c0$9ca378cc@pavilion> Message-ID: <00ae01c066c8$98438cb0$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwayne Parsons" > Found your request on Editor's Choice. I'm a professional writer, > avid reader and believe in audiobooks. Spend a lot of time driving > across rural Montana. What's your terms? Can you be more specific > if your need still exists. I'm capable and interested and have done > numerous book reviews from print. Our need does still exist. Should you be chosen for this seven-month term assignment, your recurring task would be to pick up 50 - 75 units of audiobook in Eagle Pass, Texas and upon review of the each audiobook's quality, deliver them to a ranch in Corralitos, California. You will be paid with e-gold, at a value of $2900 per successful trip. If you are still interested, please submit a more detailed resume and references. From stempleton at ea.com Fri Dec 15 11:18:06 2000 From: stempleton at ea.com (Templeton, Stuart) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:18:06 -0500 Subject: BT sues Prodigy over U.S. hyperlink patent Message-ID: probably behind the times, didn't see this spark up yet, but the quote below caught my attention... How serious would you guys suggest this "threat" to be? any information regarding other patents that could turn up like this in a more SERIOUS fashion? -stu BT sues Prodigy over U.S. hyperlink patent http://www.idg.net/ic_316584_1794_1-483.html "I haven't looked at that particular patent, so I can't formally comment on it. But I can say that Web development is seriously threatened by frivolous patents, though you can't quote me as saying I called that patent frivolous," Berners-Lee said From ichudov at algebra.com Fri Dec 15 12:53:10 2000 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:53:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: hi In-Reply-To: from "Mark Allyn" at Nov 30, 2000 05:01:48 PM Message-ID: <200012152053.OAA32331@manifold.algebra.com> I was testing a new server for algebra.com/cypherpunks. It is a colocated linux box. igor Mark Allyn wrote: > > > > Hello! > > Merry Christmas! > > Happy Hanika! > > Love & Peace! > > - Igor. From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 15 15:21:59 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 15:21:59 -0800 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. [Re: This is why HTML email is evil.] Message-ID: At 11:54 AM -0800 12/15/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > >>The reason the company now prohibits all sorts of activities, and the >>reason the Personnel Commissar is inspecting offices, is because of >>_externalities_ like lawsuits, harassment charges, etc. In a free >>society, these externalities would vanish. > >>Nope, the fear is of lawsuits. > >Do you posit that people should not be free to file lawsuits? Yes, in these cases, they should _NOT_ be able to file lawsuits. -- If an employee doesn't like the calendar that another employee has on his desk, she can talk to others in the company. Maybe they'll have it removed. But she CANNOT use the courts to intervene in a matter of how the company's owners deal with their property. -- and so on, for other examples I could construct. Lawsuits should only be "allowed" when some matter of law is involved. > > >Why do you regard harassment charges as external? Basically >the goal of a business owner is to have people capable of both >producing and working together. If you have two workers who >are both productive but who can't work together (for example, >one guy who makes dirty jokes and sends porn movies around, and >one woman who takes mighty offense and brings charges against >anyone who acts like that) you have to decide which one to get >rid of. Sure, one of them may have to go. Such was it 20 years ago, such was it 100 years ago. But the court system and EEOC sorts of offices were not involved until in recent decades. Whether I as a business owner allow "girlie calendars" on the walls of my shop is no business of the State. > >As more and more women are in the workforce, the possible cost >in productivity from such obnoxious behavior rises; If the >company is allowing the guy to be offensive on company time >or using company email accounts, they wind up offending a large >part of their workforce. They stand to lose a lot of other >productive employees by keeping one productive jerk on board. Such "possible cost in productivity" issues are matters for the business owners to decide upon, not the courts, and not regulatory agencies. > >And this is a completely separate issue from the legal liability. >The legal liability, again, is not an externality: The company >has to allow its resources to be used in this way in order to >become liable. The company could, to be fair, refuse to allow >its resources to be used to file the suits -- but that could not >stop the suits from being filed on personal time, any more than >refusing to allow company resources to be used to spread porn >can stop a jerk from spreading porn on personal time. I give up. Reading your stuff here makes me realize why it is hopeless to argue with those infected with legalitus. You will make a fine lawyer. Meanwhile, I have decided life is too short to waste it by reading your legalisms, so I am must put you in my filter file. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From alan at clueserver.org Fri Dec 15 15:56:20 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 15:56:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: <20001215055935.B796@cluebot.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 06:52:54PM -0800, Alan Olsen wrote: > > And after they get rooted by the script kiddies for the millionth time, > > maybe they will get a clue and allow people to find and fix the holes > > without having to worry about the feds carting off every thing they own. > > BTW the first things the Feds are now saying when they speak in public > (http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-17/aba-netspionage-broadcast.html) > is that they do not come in and cart off everything you own. At least > that's the latest spin. :) Just anything of value... alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From For_More_Info_Use_ at ddress_below.MIT.EDU Fri Dec 15 01:22:04 2000 From: For_More_Info_Use_ at ddress_below.MIT.EDU (Govinda) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 16:22:04 +0700 Subject: YOU HAVE WON a PITCHER of BEER (1 Liter) or a DESSERT or a 10% DISCOUNT Message-ID: <200012150849.AAA21679@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1281 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 15 14:34:50 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 16:34:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Security Against Compelled Disclosure (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 11:47:31 +0000 From: Ben Laurie To: UKCrypto , Coderpunks , Cryptography Subject: Security Against Compelled Disclosure People may be interested in a paper Ian Brown and I wrote, with the above title, for ACSAC. http://www.apache-ssl.org/disclosure.pdf Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff From jya at pipeline.com Fri Dec 15 13:41:08 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 16:41:08 -0500 Subject: FBI Sniff Message-ID: <200012152145.QAA32699@barry.mail.mindspring.net> On December 6 Cryptome published a list of some 2600 names of alleged "CIA sources," provided by a person named Gregory Douglas, who claims to have received the list from Robert Crowley, once Deputy Director of Operations for the CIA: http://cryptome.org/coa-2619.htm (167KB) There are a number of names on the list of persons well-known to be associated with the CIA, such as all the ex-DCIs, Aldrich Ames, and other public personages such as Ted Koppel, Mark Zaid and several notable journalists. Most, though, are not well-known persons. Daniel Brandt, who runs Public Information Research and NameBase, has done an analysis of the list and concludes that it is primarily a membership list of the Association of Former Intelligence Officers (www.AFIO.org) dating from about 1996. He has several such lists and has used them to evaluate the Crowley list: http://cryptome.org/cia-namebase.htm We have had several readers complain about being named on the list although they deny having any association with the CIA, others who find names of neighbors they've long suspected, and one freelance journalist who now fears he is in grave danger and intends to sue: http://cryptome.org/cia-2619-rc.htm Daniel Brandt has said that he had a dustup with AFIO in 1997 about his offering of its membership list, and has provided that correspondence: http://cryptome.org/cia-afio-names.htm Today we learned from Gregory Douglas that he has discussed the list with the FBI, and, according to Douglas, the Bureau does not know what to make of it. Douglas said he explained how he got the list and plans to show the original hardcopy of the list to FBI in DC today or shortly. The FBI asked how it came to be published on the Internet, and Douglas told them. We have not been contacted by any official about the list. Gregory Douglas (which could be a pseudonym) has published several books on controversial matters, including a series about the head of the Gestapo, Heinrich Muller, working for the OSS and CIA for years after WW2, and living in America under an assumed identity. The official story is that Muller died at the end of WW2. Douglas claims his books on Muller are banned in Germany. Is any of this Douglas stuff true? We don't know. Nor do we know that the Crowley list is authentic despite being salted with well-known names. Daniel Brandt thinks it is a ploy to fuck Cryptome, by whom he's not sure. We hope he's right. From jya at pipeline.com Fri Dec 15 14:31:37 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:31:37 -0500 Subject: FBI Sniff Correction Message-ID: <200012152235.RAA19441@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Correction of first URL: On December 6 Cryptome published a list of some 2600 names of alleged "CIA sources," provided by a person named Gregory Douglas, who claims to have received the list from Robert Crowley, once Deputy Director of Operations for the CIA: http://cryptome.org/cia-2619.htm (167KB) From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 15 18:06:14 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:06:14 -0800 Subject: AT&T signs bulk hosting contract with spammers In-Reply-To: References: <20001215055935.B796@cluebot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001215180614.00a208e0@idiom.com> >On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > >>BTW the first things the Feds are now saying when they speak in public >>(http://www.mccullagh.org/image/950-17/aba-netspionage-broadcast.html) >>is that they do not come in and cart off everything you own. At least >>that's the latest spin. :) Of course they don't. Carting stuff is a job for union workers, so that's done by the General Services Administration, unless there's some other local union contract that requires your city's workers to do it. And deciding whether you own things or not is a long legal process, as is identifying what things you might own that are somewhere else. So instead they just have the aforementioned union or city workers cart away everything you _have_, and cart back anything later determined to belong to someone else, unless it looks suspictious, of course. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Fri Dec 15 16:13:03 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:13:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > -- If an employee doesn't like the calendar that another employee has > on his desk, she can talk to others in the company. Maybe they'll > have it removed. But she CANNOT use the courts to intervene in a > matter of how the company's owners deal with their property. Her civil liberties aren't the employers property. Further, the PRIVILIGE of running a business does not have greater importance than freedom of speech and such. Simply having a desire to run a company does not justify using other people as property nor dictating behaviours that don't DIRECTLY effect the process of making profit. Democratic theory demands that unless the calendar can be demonstrably infringing a civil liberty it shouldn't be an issue. Freedom until you infringe anothers. The fundamental flaw with Libertarianism is it's myopic focus on economic efficiency. It's just another form of oppression via another face of socialism. Jefferson warned us about these sorts of people, like Tim and Declan, many years ago. "The English would not lose the sale of a bale of furs for the freedom of the whole world." And he also had a rebutt to Tim's oft claimed right to not respect others rights. "A nation as a society forms a moral person, and every member of it is personally responsible for his society." or, "There is a debt of service due from every man to his country, proportioned to the bounties which nature and fortune have measured him." As to the often claimed that the best (ie most intelligent) are most suited to govern society, "Whatever be the degree of talent it is no measure of right; because Sir Isaac Newton was superior to others in understanding, he was not therefore lord of the person or property of others." As to money being the primary goal of society and it having some ability to guarantee anything approaching 'justice', "Money and not morality is the principle of commerce and commercial nations." ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 15 18:26:12 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:26:12 -0800 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. [Re: This is why HTML email is evil.] In-Reply-To: <200012151454.GAA32616@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001215182612.007a3c20@idiom.com> >Tim May wrote: >> In a free society, free economy, then employers and employees are >> much more flexible. A solid contributor would not be fired for >> something so trivial as having a porn picture embedded in some minor >> way. Hell, a solid contributor probably wouldn't be fired even for >> sending MPEG porn movies to his buddies! ... and Tim goes on to attribute this to lawsuits of types that he asserts wouldn't happen in a free society. It's not that cut and dried - in a free society, solid contributors are often fired for non-economic reasons, and one reason such people are _not_ fired is also fear of lawsuits. Stupidity may be stupid, but it's not rare, and there are lots more opportunities for random decisions to get made. One friend of mine was having lunch with her boss and a male coworker that she got along well with, (back in the 70s) and the boss asked if they were going out. "No, Bob, Charlie and I are both gay"; she and her coworker were both fired that week. It wouldn't happen today, at least here in San Francisco, partly because of changing attitudes in society (or at least because people got used to it), and partly because the boss would worry about losing other productive workers or customers, but also because the boss would get sued or harassed by _some_ city or state agency whose job is harassing businesses. But there's much of the country where it could happen. An employer might also be concerned about the effects of a hostile atmosphere on the productivity of other employees, not just the lawsuitishness of those employees - in a free society you have more flexibility to make decisions about how to handle situations. Sometimes companies don't deal with personnel-relationships problems until hit on the head with a two-by-four made of compressed lawyers. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From freematt at coil.com Fri Dec 15 16:21:32 2000 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 19:21:32 -0500 Subject: Cyber Intifada: The Digital warriors of Arabia Message-ID: Source: The Star, Jordan Type: Web Pointer; Web Sample Date: 14 December 2000 Title: Cyber Intifada: The Digital warriors of Arabia TEXT: The Star: Jordan's Politicial, Economic and Cultural Weekly http://www.star.com.jo/ Nov (2 - 8) 2000, Issue No. 20 06 - Dec - 2000 /02:32 PM G INTERFACE: Digital warriors of Arabia IT'S OFFICIAL: The Internet is the latest battleground. If you've been reading the news recently, you will probably have noticed reports on website hack-attacks between Arab and Israeli users. Nov 05, 2000, 04:42 PM BY ZEID NASSER JORDAN (Star) - IT'S OFFICIAL: The Internet is the latest battleground. If you've been reading the news recently, you will probably have noticed reports on website hack-attacks between Arab and Israeli users. It started last week, with an Israeli attack on the Hezbollah website (www.hizbollah.com), by which hackers crashed the site's server by flooding it with requests. It was an organized effort, carried out by several hackers. A news report stated that the attack on Hezbollah's site was first initiated by a message that was circulated over the ICQ instant messaging service. The message urged users to help their "Israeli friends" take the Hezbollah site down by using a ping command on their PCs. Throughout the day, Israeli users plotted their attack, and implemented it. Later in the week, a number of Israeli government sites were attacked, including the site of the Foreign Ministry and the Prime Minister's website. It became quite apparent that this would be the beginning of a wave of attacks and counter attacks, pitting the hacking skills of Arabs against the skills of Israelis. Reports began to emerge that all sorts of Arabic and Israeli websites were crashing under attack. Political, academic and even entertainment sites were coming under attack. The Amman-based news portal, albawaba.com, got hit by a flood of pro-Israeli messages on one of its discussion forums, which resulted in the political forum being closed down until the technicians diverted the messages and reopened it. On the other hand a newspaper reported, in detail, how an Arab hacker, who calls himself Dodi, succeeded in "defacing the Netanya Academy site in Israel, leaving a message that attacked Israel and the US and criticized Arab governments. The activist said he would carry on with his attacks until the whole Internet backbone in Israel was down." Obviously, there are enough Arab Internet users out there to counter attack. In fact, if numbers count in this new web- war, Israeli sites will probably be worried at the potential Arab Internet population! So, the skirmishes continue and are set to go on, with more dangerous prospects emerging as the networks of governments, and large private corporations may become more vulnerable. Hackers seeking to cause maximum damage will target public records, which should be easily accessible over the web soon, due to the adoption of the concept of e-government. That's quite frightening. Opening up some of the government's computer networks to 'outsider' access could compromise the security of government records and result in all sorts of damage. Citizens like you and me will be pleased to enjoy the convenience of applying for a license online, but 'nasty' hackers will jump to the opportunity of delving into this e-government server, and finding out how far they can get into the government's other networks through it! So, apart from Internet warfare, there is the somewhat more worrying aspect of security breaches in government Intranets. The issue here is whether there is enough security to prevent the possibility of any harm being done by an intelligent, motivated hacker. If the hacker is the 'enemy', then who knows what kind of remorseless data theft and data destruction will be carried out. Apart from the damage done, the downtime will frustrate the network users, just like 39,000 Microsoft employees were locked out of the company network this week due to a hack attack! Contrary to the 'patriotic' nature of recent hacking incidents in the Middle East, hacking cases tend to be corporate crime incidents. That kind of hacking will soon be happening in our region too. However, for now, the hackers are using their skills for patriotic purposes; seeking vengeance for crimes committed against the Palestinian people. Some people are calling them the 'secret warriors'. I like to think of them as the digital warriors of Arabia, in a battleground that transcends the traditional limitations of state borders. What we are witnessing now is just the beginning. One thing is for sure, there's more to come! ) The Star 2000-2001 A premier partner of arabia.com Text accessible online at http://www.star.com.jo/article/0,5596,16_98,00.html ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month) Matthew Gaylor, 1933 E. 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If you want to be removed from our distribution list, reply to this message with REMOVE in the subject heading. Please allow one week for your name to be removed from our distribution list. We want to make this newsletter useful for DoveBid registered users and welcome your feedback. Please send any comments to mailto:news at dovebid.com. Copyright DoveBid Inc., 2000. All rights reserved. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Fri Dec 15 20:48:58 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:48:58 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001213232539.00a7a120@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001215204858.009f7740@idiom.com> At 10:23 PM 12/14/00 -0500, BMM wrote: >The list is gatewayed from/to alt.anonymous.messages, which provides a bit >more cover. I agree that it would be more useful as an extension of >a.a.m than standalone. Ok - if it forwards to a.a.m, then there may be arbitrarily large numbers of readers on that side, so it's potentially useful. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 15 20:52:04 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:52:04 -0800 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. [Re: This is why HTML email is evil.] In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001215182612.007a3c20@idiom.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20001215182612.007a3c20@idiom.com> Message-ID: At 6:26 PM -0800 12/15/00, Bill Stewart wrote: > >Tim May wrote: >>> In a free society, free economy, then employers and employees are >>> much more flexible. A solid contributor would not be fired for >>> something so trivial as having a porn picture embedded in some minor >>> way. Hell, a solid contributor probably wouldn't be fired even for >>> sending MPEG porn movies to his buddies! > >... and Tim goes on to attribute this to lawsuits of types >that he asserts wouldn't happen in a free society. >It's not that cut and dried - in a free society, >solid contributors are often fired for non-economic reasons, I didn't say that contributors are not fired for non-economic reasons. Maybe they're not putting out for the boss, maybe he doesn't like people who supported Gore. Whatever. Not for anyone but the property owners to deal with. >and one reason such people are _not_ fired is also fear of lawsuits. Depending on the terms of an employment contract (most have none), employees are employed at will. In a free society, that is. >Stupidity may be stupid, but it's not rare, and there are >lots more opportunities for random decisions to get made. > >One friend of mine was having lunch with her boss and a male >coworker that she got along well with, (back in the 70s) and the boss >asked if they were going out. "No, Bob, Charlie and I are both gay"; >she and her coworker were both fired that week. In a free society, so what? >It wouldn't happen today, at least here in San Francisco, >partly because of changing attitudes in society (or at least >because people got used to it), and partly because the boss >would worry about losing other productive workers or customers, Which is as it should be.... >but also because the boss would get sued or harassed by _some_ >city or state agency whose job is harassing businesses. >But there's much of the country where it could happen. Because we don't live in a free society. Which was my point. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Dec 15 21:41:03 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 21:41:03 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A3A0B19.76DBB062@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Tom Vogt: > > > all along we've been talking about "evil". suddenly, in your > > > two examples above, the word doesn't appear anymore. James A. Donald: > > The word murder does appear. Murder is defined as "wrongful > > killing.", hence is by definition a particular kind of evil. > > Indeed it is the archetypal example of evil, the type specimen of > > evil. Tom Vogt: > Weird, a couple thousand years of history disagree with you. until > the very recent past, pretty much everyone was sure that killing > enemies, unbelievers or other people isn't "evil". probably isn't > even "murder". If you are confused about the difference between war and peace, you must be seriously confused about a lot of things. > ironically, you seem to agree somewhat that bombing a couple hectars > of an "evil nation" isn't murder, either... Those who claim to that killing people in warfare is no different from killing people in peace, are more likely to exterminate subjects during peacetime, than they are likely to refrain from killing enemies in wartime. Tom Vogt: > > > but the point is that the one point can be settled, the other > > > not. James A. Donald: > > Surely the events of the twentieth century settled the matter > > decisively. Those who believe otherwise are monsters or fools, > > knaves or dupes. When people die as a result of their error, > > others should learn. Tom Vogt: > nice, but old trick of passing judgement on someone in such a form > that it also invalidates his (possibly different) judgement on you. > but it's just cheap dialectics, not "truth". > > remember that many more non-germans died in WW2 than germans. we > really shouldn't use body-count as a measure of truth. Remembering that both german and non german deaths were caused by germans, we should use body count as a measure of evil. James A. Donald: > > Anyone who propagates false moral beliefs also propagates false > > emprical claims supporting those false moral beliefs -- hence for > > example the continual debates where Marxists claim that Marx's > > predictions are coming true. If there was an is ought gap, they > > would find it unnecessary to so tightly couple moral and factual > > claims. Tom Vogt: > who decides what is wrong and right in moral beliefs? Common sense. James A. Donald: > > And evidence that they were wrong is that a great many of them > > died of that error, for nazis killed more nazis than they did > > commies, just as the commies killed more commies than they did > > nazis, something that anyone could have foreseen had he recognized > > that killing Jews was murder, that killing capitalists for being > > capitalists was murder. Tom Vogt: > your point is? that the percentage of "friendly fire" defines what > is right and what is wrong? Friendly fire is an accident, an error. The murder of commies by commies and nazis by nazis was planned from the very beginning. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG YivChPEwc3KGWpVxNl2s9XFXHcCSZAlwgBzWfY/U 4RvCdxlreJ2EC2bq0c1LTl+Q1HNKyDAe8UFcrF4O3 From dialpad.54576.1285.0 at reply.dialpad.com Sat Dec 16 01:02:43 2000 From: dialpad.54576.1285.0 at reply.dialpad.com (The Dialpad Team) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 01:02:43 -0800 Subject: A Privacy Update from Dialpad Message-ID: <976957368069.dialpad.54576.1285.0@reply.dialpad.com> ************************************************************** This offer comes to you from Dialpad.com. Dialpad.com will bring you special offers and promotions from time to time, that we think will be of interest to you. To no longer receive these offers, please reply to this email with "remove" in the subject line. To learn more about Dialpad's Privacy Policy please visit http://click.dialpad.com/dp12354576.1285.0.389 ************************************************************** Dear Joe, Happy Holidays from Dialpad! 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Or go to the living AIR and WATER website for more information. http://www.inter-net-cafe.com/air/ From ericm at lne.com Sat Dec 16 11:24:25 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:24:25 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net>; from madmullah@crosswinds.net on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 12:26:45PM -0500 References: <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: <20001216112425.B9768@slack.lne.com> On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 12:26:45PM -0500, madmullah wrote: > > Regarding anonymous Usenet reading (vs. posting), > what kind of logging do most nntpd's perform ? > > I've never had the opportunity to setup nntp daemon softwarez > so I have nada idea as to the level of default logging that they > perform by default, or how they can be tweaked further. By default they perform all the default logging.... > Is it possible to log HEAD and BODY requests for individual articles in > individual newsgroups along > with a userid on the clients end ? Worse, can the ip address of the > client newsreader software be logged > along with its individual nntp commands ? Yes, it can be. I used to have a script which parsed nntpd logs to watch an individual's browsing (individual host that is). With access to the dialup/radius database, the ISP could match the IP to the account and thus to the real name. The same info can be obtained for email on an ISP via POP/IMAP logging combined with the sendmail logs (and looking at the emails in the queue to get the content). Fortunately most ISPs don't have the time to do this just for fun, unfortunately a lot of them would do it if requested to do so by police. Only by running your own mail or news server can you prevent the ISP from monitoring your email or news reading. -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From support at quote.com Sat Dec 16 09:24:43 2000 From: support at quote.com (Customer Service) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:24:43 -0500 Subject: Quote.com User Information Modifications Message-ID: <200012161724.eBGHOgl20624@smtp3.quote.com> Hello Valued Quote.com User, We appreciate your use of our site and hope our financial resources are satisfying your investment needs. Recently, you received an e-mail outlining some of the changes that are going on with our site. We are working to implement major enhancements to our network infrastructure to improve your user experience. To make this a seamless transition, we have assigned you a new password. Username: rivermaste New Password: tick1rep Your current password will be active until Friday, December 15, 2000. The new password issued above will become effective as of Saturday, December 16, 2000. If you decide to change your new password upon activation, please go to https://www.quote.com/reg/acct/modify.html. Feel free to contact our customer service team at (800)498-8068 if you encounter any difficulty accessing your Quote.com account. We are proud to announce that your username and new password will soon become your passport, providing you access to the entire Lycos Network through your existing Quote.com account. We trust these improvements will make your user experience more enjoyable and well worth any inconvenience this process may have caused you. Thank you again for your patronage. Sincerely, Quote.com From madmullah at crosswinds.net Sat Dec 16 09:26:45 2000 From: madmullah at crosswinds.net (madmullah) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:26:45 -0500 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) References: Message-ID: <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> Regarding anonymous Usenet reading (vs. posting), what kind of logging do most nntpd's perform ? I've never had the opportunity to setup nntp daemon softwarez so I have nada idea as to the level of default logging that they perform by default, or how they can be tweaked further. Is it possible to log HEAD and BODY requests for individual articles in individual newsgroups along with a userid on the clients end ? Worse, can the ip address of the client newsreader software be logged along with its individual nntp commands ? What I'm thinking about is that there might be a massive potential for piercing a users anonymity through the examination of such logs, but since I don't know what kind of logging the major news server packages perform by default I don't know how much of a threat this type of scenario would be. Any news gurus out there ? Forgive me for the amateurish sound of this message, I think that these issues are sort of germane the larger set of anonymity issues associated with usenet. From ultratrim2000 at aol.com Sat Dec 16 14:23:23 2000 From: ultratrim2000 at aol.com (ultratrim2000 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:23:23 Subject: LOSE 30 POUNDS IN 30 DAYS, GUARANTEED! Message-ID: <387.332637.548175@mail01.homeworkers23232.com> *****AMAZING MELT AWAY FAT ABSORBER CAPSULES***** LOSE 30 POUNDS IN 30 DAYS... GUARANTEED!!! 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Shipping Name______________________________________________ Shipping Address___________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ Shipping City,State,Zip ___________________________________________________________ Country ___________________________________________________________ Email Address & Phone Number(Please Write Neat) From rguerra at yahoo.com Sat Dec 16 11:50:33 2000 From: rguerra at yahoo.com (Robert Guerra) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:50:33 -0500 Subject: Florida Election - Looking back to CFP2000 Message-ID: I'm reviewing the CFP2000 conference (www.cfp2000.org) proceedings (http://www.acm.org/pubs/contents/proceedings/cas/332186/) and have come across the following paper which I think is relevant to the e-election discussion which has been going on here... Internet Voting: Spurring or Corrupting Democracy http://www.acm.org/pubs/articles/proceedings/cas/332186/p229-craft/p229-craft.pdf [In conclusion].. ... We in Florida have consluded that, as long as we compy with our existig laws on election procedures and governmental structure, we can proceed with our efforts to formulate policy in the Technology issue area by examining, testing, and certifying Internet voting systems for pilot-project use. Furthermore, we believe this approach will have NO EFFECT on the political science issue area. We are considering the certification of precinct-based Internet voting systems when a system vendor introduces a system which will meet or exceed Florida's existing standards for security, privacy and accuracy.. -- "...as we transfer our whole being to the data bank, privacy will become a ghost or echo of its former self and what remains of community will disappear"...Marshal McLuhan -- Robert Guerra , Fax: +1(303) 484-0302 WWW Page , ICQ # 10266626 PGPKeys From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sat Dec 16 15:28:24 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:28:24 -0800 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001216152824.00a8a8a0@idiom.com> At 06:13 PM 12/15/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > >> -- If an employee doesn't like the calendar that another employee has >> on his desk, she can talk to others in the company. Maybe they'll >> have it removed. But she CANNOT use the courts to intervene in a >> matter of how the company's owners deal with their property. > >Her civil liberties aren't the employers property. Further, the PRIVILIGE >of running a business does not have greater importance than freedom of >speech and such. > >Simply having a desire to run a company does not justify using other >people as property nor dictating behaviours that don't DIRECTLY effect the >process of making profit. Democratic theory demands that unless the >calendar can be demonstrably infringing a civil liberty it shouldn't be an >issue. Freedom until you infringe anothers. Tim said that in a free society she wouldn't be able to sue. Jim said that Tim is entirely wrong, that in a free society she wouldn't be able to sue. It's true that they give different reasons, but I can't see that there's a fundamental conflict here. Also, Jim says that "Democratic theory demands that..." Theories don't demand things, people do, but most people who like democracy demand that whatever the majority wants, it gets. (And some say, it ought to get it good and hard.) Some theories about democracy say that this will always be good, because most people are mostly good; some say that this will be inherently right because it's what Da People want; some say that it may not be all that good but you can do a lot worse with most of the available alternatives, and that if you don't settle for that the worse alternatives will take over. Tim, on the other hand, believes that in a free society that if you want to run a business you can (or at least you can try). Jim repeatedly asserts that running a business is a privilege that somebody, I guess Da Majority, graciously grants you, and can take away if they want, and that it's somehow not part of freedom. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 16 16:00:38 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:00:38 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <20001216112425.B9768@slack.lne.com> References: <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001216155305.01e9c3f0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 11:24 AM 12/16/2000 -0800, Eric Murray wrote: > Only by running your own mail or news server can you prevent the ISP > from monitoring your email or news reading. My newsreader, like most people's newsreaders, automatically downloads those newsgroups I am interested in full, in the background. Therefore there is no way anyone can no which particular message of "alt.anonymous.messages" I have read. Alt.anonymous.messages is completely effective. It does not provide mere obscurity, but rather supplies true security. To determine who I am communicating with, and what I was saying, the adversary would need to compromise my firewalled computer. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG /HoDeqkrstPjC1zLMA8ggxmk0U1w1LZHGpo0tSFB 4iW+dQFuOF/JostNZWllHlMlU7zV8knH3Xv+7VKOz From ericm at lne.com Sat Dec 16 16:20:05 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:20:05 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001216155305.01e9c3f0@shell11.ba.best.com>; from jamesd@echeque.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:00:38PM -0800 References: <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <20001216112425.B9768@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001216155305.01e9c3f0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <20001216162005.G28790@slack.lne.com> On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:00:38PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > At 11:24 AM 12/16/2000 -0800, Eric Murray wrote: > > Only by running your own mail or news server can you prevent the ISP > > from monitoring your email or news reading. > > My newsreader, like most people's newsreaders, automatically downloads > those newsgroups I am interested in full, in the background. Therefore > there is no way anyone can no which particular message of > "alt.anonymous.messages" I have read. Interesting. I didn't know that newsreaders did that. None of my newsreaders do, but then I use rn or trn and not the newsreaders built into browsers, which I assume is what you mean by "most people's". Yes, if you always download all of a.a.m then there's no way to do traffic analysis unless your opponent can control your news feed and selectively delete or modify messages in the newspool, and that's a lot more work than looking at the download logs. > Alt.anonymous.messages is completely effective. Not completely- it wouldn't work for people with newsreaders like trn which don't always grab everything from the subscribed newsfroups. Simple to fix, but something to be aware of. -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From bmm at minder.net Sat Dec 16 14:17:31 2000 From: bmm at minder.net (BMM) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:17:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, madmullah wrote: > Regarding anonymous Usenet reading (vs. posting), > what kind of logging do most nntpd's perform ? > Servers probably by default log whetever authentication is required to access them, ie. an IP address where there's an ACL by IP or a username where a USERAUTH is required. > I've never had the opportunity to setup nntp daemon softwarez > so I have nada idea as to the level of default logging that they > perform by default, or how they can be tweaked further. The News administrator may log as much or as little as he chooses. This is why others have suggested one read read news from a server or one has control over. A caching proxy configured correctly would be the next best thing. > Is it possible to log HEAD and BODY requests for individual articles in > individual newsgroups along > with a userid on the clients end ? Worse, can the ip address of the > client newsreader software be logged > along with its individual nntp commands ? > > What I'm thinking about is that there might be a massive potential for > piercing a users anonymity through the examination of such logs, but > since > I don't know what kind of logging the major news server packages perform > by default > I don't know how much of a threat this type of scenario would be. > Managing a news feed is neat experience to have done once, but I don't think I'd want to make a career out of it. Popular server packages go a long way toward reducing the administrative burden, including allowing the administrator to tweak logging up or down as he deems appropriate. > Any news gurus out there ? > Forgive me for the amateurish sound of this message, I think that these > issues are sort of germane > the larger set of anonymity issues associated with usenet. > Thanks, -Brian From aka at interns.net Sat Dec 16 21:23:28 2000 From: aka at interns.net (aka at interns.net) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:23:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: As seen on National TV - Golden opprtunity. !! Message-ID: <419.436876.97438049aka@interns.net> Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV : Before you delete this, take a look !! ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! ================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ===================================================================== Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ======= PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ========= (Or Have it E-mailed to you-See Submit Button Below) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ============ Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. =============== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. === When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. === Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. === IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ========================================================== **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================================== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ============================================================ REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ===================================================================== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ====================== AVAILABLE REPORTS==================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ============================================================ REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' Order Report # 1 from: A. K. Al-alawi 7920 San Felipe Blvd., # 1411 Austin, TX 78729 USA _________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report # 2 from : A. S. Dorsey 521 Lee Street Hampton, VA 23669 USA _________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' Order Report # 3 from: Heidi Bohm 1095 Osceola Ave #103 St Paul, MN 55105 USA ________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report # 4 from: Randall Williams 401 Stocks Dairy Road Leesburg Georgia 31763 U.S.A. ________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report # 5 from: Dario Va 16541 Blatt Blvd #206 Weston, FL 33326 U.S.A. ______________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ============================================================ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ==================== MORE TESTIMONIALS====================== '' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois ===================================================================== '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ============================================================ '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ============================================================= '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ============================================================== ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ============================================================== If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ============================THE END========================= This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, http://www.senate.gov/ ~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to the originating email address with the word "remove" in the subject line From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 16 19:31:11 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:31:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001216152824.00a8a8a0@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > Tim said that in a free society she wouldn't be able to sue. > Jim said that Tim is entirely wrong, that in a free society > she wouldn't be able to sue. It's true that they give different > reasons, but I can't see that there's a fundamental conflict here. No, I said she should be able to sue. To say that a person should not be able to sue if they feel they have been wronged simply because somebody wants to make a profit and such an action might impact that profit is NOT acceptable behaviour from a civil society based on democratic ideals. > Also, Jim says that "Democratic theory demands that..." > Theories don't demand things, people do, but most people who > like democracy demand that whatever the majority wants, it gets. > (And some say, it ought to get it good and hard.) Actually theories do demand, in the sense of compliance or adherence. If a theory says that a particular boundary condition must apply in order to apply (eg socialism equates to government ownership and management of all property including people) and a particular instance doesn't comply then it's clear another theory is required. It is the same sort of definition for 'demand' as that used by people to decide compliance as well. Your distinction is actually a false one. > Some theories about democracy say that this will always be good, > because most people are mostly good; some say that this will be > inherently right because it's what Da People want; some say that > it may not be all that good but you can do a lot worse with most > of the available alternatives, and that if you don't settle for that > the worse alternatives will take over. We're not talking about what people say. We are talking about the axiomatic requirements of theories and how to apply them to both pedantic as well as real world examples. The basic axiomatic definition of a democracy is pretty simply, the citizens of the government each get a vote in what that government will do. The details, whether it might be direct vote or through a bicamaral house or some other mechanism, still don't change that fundamental definition. No realistic theory about democracy says anything about how individuals will behave. If anything it is an open admission that people are so diverse and different in goals and desires that it can't be encompessed within a central organizational approach (eg socialism). The power of democracy, and the failure of socialism, fascism, anarchism, libertarianism, etc. is that it not only recognizes that no single set of goals will satisfy everyone. It recognizes that everyone has a say in what happens and why. It further, at least in most applications it appears, seems to recognize the right of minorities to be protected in their distinctions. In general any time a person feels that anothers behaviour has infringed their free expression has a right to review by a 3rd party (ie a court). > Tim, on the other hand, believes that in a free society > that if you want to run a business you can (or at least you can try). > Jim repeatedly asserts that running a business is a privilege > that somebody, I guess Da Majority, graciously grants you, > and can take away if they want, and that it's somehow not > part of freedom. As I've explained before, a business is the espression of the right to pursuit happiness. But the point that you and Tim always leave off is that you have that right UNTIL IT INFRINGES ANOTHER. You habitually ignore that others have equivalent rights you demand for yourself. In short, liberty for me but not for thee. Crypto-anarchy and libertarianism are just another form of fascism at best and socialism at worst. It's a means for one group of people to oppress and control another. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Sat Dec 16 22:04:15 2000 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:04:15 -0800 Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism Message-ID: <3A3BE57E.14508.23440ACD@localhost> In recent years California citizens have decided against new electric power generation projects within their jurisdiction and to enforce strict air pollution standards on any existing facilities. This is great as long as the people making this decision pay the cost. Unfortunately the cost of these decisions are not being borne only be the citizens of California. The bad decisions of the citizens of California have produced an energy crisis in what is called the Northwest for which all citizens in what is called the Northwest must pay the price. Here I sit in Vancouver BC Canada paying outrageous prices for natural gas because of the demand in California for natural gas for heating and electrical generation purposes. I feel California should pay for their previous decisions themselves, if you don't want power plants don't use power or pay the complete premium for your decision. Of course the system can never be made to work in this way so here I sit in Canada paying for bad decisions in California. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca "The Ultimate Enterprise Security Experts" http://www.fbn.bc.ca/sysecurt.html From bear at sonic.net Sat Dec 16 22:06:03 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:06:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: >> > Crypto-anarchy and libertarianism are just another form >> > of fascism at best and socialism at worst. It's a means >> > for one group of people to oppress and control another. Note: I really wish that people would "get" the distinction between socialism and fascism on this list. I realize both look substantially the same from the libertarian/anarchist perspective in that they involve controlling people. But they have different ideologies and reasons for controlling people, and to use them interchangeably is to be WRONG slightly more than half the time. If you want a word you can use for both types of government, plus dictatorships and feudal/aristocratic systems, try "totalitarian". >Is your premise that anarchy doesn't lead to a 'socialist' society? A >society in which the choices of the individual are made en masse? Consider >the congruency of world view a working anarchy requires? Then consider the >disparity of world views between any two people. How do you resolve this >obvious conflict? I have long felt that we could comfortably shrink government if open markets were established to help settle such conflicts. >How does a working anarchy resolve real world disputes? I offer you the >example of a tree which is rooted in my back yard but has limbs impinging >on my neighbors roof. Is it his or my responsibility to cut the limbs back >to deter damage? Why? Whose responsiblity to pay for any damage that does >occur to the roof from limbs? Why? When the tree dies who is responsible >for the bill to remove the dead husk? Why? What happens if at any point >during this resolution phase one of the parties refuses to participate >further? Who do they go to for arbitration? What standards of arbitration >will be used? Who is responsible for assuring compliance? What are the >limits of compliance enforcement? If there are no laws, and both of you are committed to resolving the issue without violence, you probably both put money on the barrelhead to be paid to the other in the event you don't abide by an arbitrator's decision, and then go to an arbitrator and ask his opinion. That's if you're civic minded, I suppose. The fact is though, a lot of people wouldn't do that if they thought the arbitrator was likely to side with the other guy. Things become a lot easier if your property deed is a truly *complete* description of the property; in that case you know who owns the volume over the fence (or whether it's held in common) and your neighbor started charging you rent for the encroachment of your tree into his volume years ago. If you don't want to pay the rent, you have a few choices; you can trim your tree to keep it in your property, you can buy from him the volume over the fence where the tree's limbs are spreading, or you can offer tenancy in common of the volume in question, giving him the right to encroach into the volume near your house too. Note, this assumes sufficient government that property rights and contracts are meaningful. This is not true in a complete anarchy. If you don't have at least that, then you and your neighbor will eventually either work things out in some non-specific way or one of you will kill the other. The closer to anarchy a system gets, the more completely every last thing in it has to be accounted for and owned in order to avoid breakdown. >Now, let's assume we've a neighbor making bombs and his garage is 15 ft. >from your childs bedroom? Let's ask the same sorts of questions? If it's a residential neighborhood, then it was probably developed by a commercial real estate developer. In order to improve his bottom line, he will probably retain ownership of certain property rights and sell the rest. For example, he may retain the sole and exclusive right to build bombs on this property -- and advertise far and wide his intent not to exercise it. Now the guy with the 55-gallon drum of gelignite is in violation of the developer's property rights and the neighbor calls the developer who sends around some security guys. This is really just an extension of the kind of "neighborhood association" bullshit that a lot of real estate developers try to do now -- they deny the homeowners the right to paint their houses purple, etc, as a condition of sale. This puts the property developer in a sort of lawgiver role, but it does not establish a government that can pass arbitrary laws; every right of ownership *NOT* sold to the homeowners would have to be spelled out in the purchase contract, and there wouldn't be grounds for anyone to change those laws after the point of sale. Basically, you could see right up front what property rights were withheld from you, and what property rights were withheld from your neighbors, when you were contemplating the house purchase decision. I think this is the ideal of a "functional" anarchy: You are beholden only to the rules and restraints which you personally have freely chosen. There may be just as many as there are laws in the current setup, but they are there because you personally chose them and they are enforced against you because you voluntarily signed contracts accepting them. If you bought the house with the understanding that you had no right to build bombs there, and that your neighbors also had no right to build bombs in their houses, and you have a contract with the property developer that says the right to build bombs in your neighbors' houses will *NOT* be granted to your neighbors without your explicit approval, that's fine. It's a restraint you (and your neighbor) have chosen. If you wanted to build bombs in your home, you should just have bought a house that was sold with that right intact. But if you bought your house with "all" property rights and then some twit far away changes the value of your house by changing what property rights you have over it, then you have a problem. Currently we allow people to change the sets of rights we own (including property rights) without recompensation -- hell, without even *bidding* for those rights on an open market. >As we've discussed before on the list, in the cases of commen services >like fire fighting which are converted to profit making enterprises, how >is intentional fire starting to be prevented? It's very hard. Probably the best route would be again through property developers; the property developer could retain the exclusive right to sell fire insurance on these buildings, and then license the right *only* to insurance companies who contributed a set percentage of premiums to a local firefighters company. Getting all these services straightened out is just good business from the property development POV. Bear From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 16 20:23:45 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:23:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: <00e501c067dd$ae837ce0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Me wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Choate" > > Crypto-anarchy and libertarianism are just another form > > of fascism at best and socialism at worst. It's a means > > for one group of people to oppress and control another. > > If Choatean programming follows Choatean physics and political > philosophy, a lot of IBM's design choices suddenly make sense. I look forward to your defence of crypto-anarchy-libertarian ideals. Is your premise that anarchy doesn't lead to a 'socialist' society? A society in which the choices of the individual are made en masse? Consider the congruency of world view a working anarchy requires? Then consider the disparity of world views between any two people. How do you resolve this obvious conflict? Anarchy has no answer other than everyone will do the 'right' thing because there isn't a 'government' there to coerce them by force. Anarchy can't even tell you what a 'government' is. Read the FAQ that is widely available on the web. Let's get rid of 'government' is nothing more than a veil for getting rid of people who differ in point of view. What is government? It's people who share some commen world view and agree, to a wide variety of degree, at least in some minimalist way on how it should be implimented. To get rid of government is to a priori restrict this world view. Yet anarchy promises us a wider choice of world view, apparently only so long as it's the approved one. How does a working anarchy resolve real world disputes? I offer you the example of a tree which is rooted in my back yard but has limbs impinging on my neighbors roof. Is it his or my responsibility to cut the limbs back to deter damage? Why? Whose responsiblity to pay for any damage that does occur to the roof from limbs? Why? When the tree dies who is responsible for the bill to remove the dead husk? Why? What happens if at any point during this resolution phase one of the parties refuses to participate further? Who do they go to for arbitration? What standards of arbitration will be used? Who is responsible for assuring compliance? What are the limits of compliance enforcement? Now, let's assume we've a neighbor making bombs and his garage is 15 ft. from your childs bedroom? Let's ask the same sorts of questions? As we've discussed before on the list, in the cases of commen services like fire fighting which are converted to profit making enterprises, how is intentional fire starting to be prevented? Who is to review the evidence and pursue the parties involved? How are they to be held accountable? ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From commerce at home.com Sat Dec 16 19:58:57 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 22:58:57 -0500 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. References: Message-ID: <00e501c067dd$ae837ce0$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" > Crypto-anarchy and libertarianism are just another form > of fascism at best and socialism at worst. It's a means > for one group of people to oppress and control another. If Choatean programming follows Choatean physics and political philosophy, a lot of IBM's design choices suddenly make sense. 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From die at die.com Sat Dec 16 21:19:30 2000 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:19:30 -0500 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: ; from bmm@minder.net on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 05:17:31PM -0500 References: <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: <20001217001930.F12105@die.com> On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 05:17:31PM -0500, BMM wrote: > On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, madmullah wrote: > > > Regarding anonymous Usenet reading (vs. posting), > > what kind of logging do most nntpd's perform ? > > > > Managing a news feed is neat experience to have done once, but I don't > think I'd want to make a career out of it. > > Any news gurus out there ? > > Forgive me for the amateurish sound of this message, I think that these > > issues are sort of germane > > the larger set of anonymity issues associated with usenet. Many many years ago, before the net became the ubiquitous popular medium it mutated into in the mid 90's, I ran USENET as a part time hobby for the various companies I worked for in that era. And yes I found out one could learn quite a bit more than one wanted to know from the logs I routinely kept. Was eye opening indeed to discover who in the office read particular niche interest groups and who posted to what... I don't know what a modern ISP typically keeps as far as logs, but I do know the available packages allow quite detailed logging. I think one can obviously assume that any postings are completely logged, and in such a manner as to make it trivial to retrieve all those from one user (but this is possible anyway via Deja). Logs of specific articles or newsgroups read are readily possible, but unlikely to be routinely kept unless someone is nosey and looking for dirt. A request for articles from an unusual newsgroup might trigger a detectable log entry, since some USENET spools only spool groups that people using them read... > > > > Thanks, > > -Brian -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 17 02:15:42 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:15:42 -0800 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > >> -- If an employee doesn't like the calendar that another employee has >> on his desk, she can talk to others in the company. Maybe they'll >> have it removed. But she CANNOT use the courts to intervene in a >> matter of how the company's owners deal with their property. > >Her civil liberties aren't the employers property. Further, the PRIVILIGE >of running a business does not have greater importance than freedom of >speech and such. "Privilige (sic) of running a business"? Huh? Do you have the "Privilege" of being allowed to work? To say running a business is a "privilege" is to say that every action, everything that a person does besides breathing is a privilege. Who can bestow that privilege? Asinine. > >Simply having a desire to run a company does not justify using other >people as property nor dictating behaviours that don't DIRECTLY effect the Unless you are chaining people to their desks, posting armed guards to prevent them from leaving, or using the law to prevent them from quiting and finding another job, you aren't treating them as property. You are treating them as adults, as independent people who can make up their own minds as to where and under what conditions they are willing to work. >process of making profit. Democratic theory demands that unless the >calendar can be demonstrably infringing a civil liberty it shouldn't be an >issue. Freedom until you infringe anothers. > >The fundamental flaw with Libertarianism is it's myopic focus on economic >efficiency. It's just another form of oppression via another face of >socialism. Utter nonsense. But then the further the subject strays from programming and computers, the more that is common from you. >As to money being the primary goal of society and it having some ability >to guarantee anything approaching 'justice', > >"Money and not morality is the principle of commerce and commercial >nations." Money, or rather the trade of goods and services *is* the morality of a society. Or to put it a little better, Money is the INDICATOR of the morality of a culture. It tells you what they value, what they want and what they think important. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 17 02:24:41 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:24:41 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <20001216162005.G28790@slack.lne.com> References: <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <20001216112425.B9768@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001216155305.01e9c3f0@shell11.ba.best.com> <20001216162005.G28790@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: >On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:00:38PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote: >> -- >> At 11:24 AM 12/16/2000 -0800, Eric Murray wrote: >> > Only by running your own mail or news server can you prevent the ISP >> > from monitoring your email or news reading. >> >> My newsreader, like most people's newsreaders, automatically downloads >> those newsgroups I am interested in full, in the background. Therefore >> there is no way anyone can no which particular message of >> "alt.anonymous.messages" I have read. > >Interesting. I didn't know that newsreaders did that. None of my >newsreaders do, but then I use rn or trn and not the newsreaders built into >browsers, which I assume is what you mean by "most people's". I believe that most download all of the headers, and then only download the articles one is interested in--at least the "Online" newsreaders do it this way. >Not completely- it wouldn't work for people with newsreaders like trn which >don't always grab everything from the subscribed newsfroups. >Simple to fix, but something to be aware of. Trn (and IIRC slrn) can be configured to read from the local spool. If one is using Linux, there is also leafnode, a "small site" news server that gets it's feed via NNRP (the news reader protocol) as opposed to NNTP. It is fairly trivial to set up, and can be cron'd to grab all the articles in a newsgroup at regular intervals, and expire the messages from disk in short order. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Sun Dec 17 02:28:21 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:28:21 -0800 Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism In-Reply-To: <3A3BE57E.14508.23440ACD@localhost> References: <3A3BE57E.14508.23440ACD@localhost> Message-ID: >In recent years California citizens have decided against new >electric power generation projects within their jurisdiction and to >enforce strict air pollution standards on any existing facilities. > >This is great as long as the people making this decision pay the >cost. Unfortunately the cost of these decisions are not being borne >only be the citizens of California. The bad decisions of the citizens >of California have produced an energy crisis in what is called the >Northwest for which all citizens in what is called the Northwest must >pay the price. > >Here I sit in Vancouver BC Canada paying outrageous prices for >natural gas because of the demand in California for natural gas for >heating and electrical generation purposes. I feel California should >pay for their previous decisions themselves, if you don't want power >plants don't use power or pay the complete premium for your >decision. > >Of course the system can never be made to work in this way so >here I sit in Canada paying for bad decisions in California. I live in California, and I agree 100% with your statements. The reason we aren't "paying our fair share" has to do not with greedy corporations, but with the ignorant peasants whinging to the government. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From Anarchysk8er123 at cs.com Sun Dec 17 01:12:12 2000 From: Anarchysk8er123 at cs.com (Anarchysk8er123 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:12:12 EST Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: hi From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 17 06:35:55 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:35:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism In-Reply-To: <3A3BE57E.14508.23440ACD@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > In recent years California citizens have decided against new > electric power generation projects within their jurisdiction and to > enforce strict air pollution standards on any existing facilities. > > This is great as long as the people making this decision pay the > cost. Unfortunately the cost of these decisions are not being borne > only be the citizens of California. The bad decisions of the citizens > of California have produced an energy crisis in what is called the > Northwest for which all citizens in what is called the Northwest must > pay the price. Then let them buy their power from the generators THEY were smart enough to vote into existance. The reality is the NW people got what they deserved. They voted to use the Cali. power grid instead of their own. No injustice or wrong has occured here because everyone got a say. You reap what you sow. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From jya at pipeline.com Sun Dec 17 05:49:14 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:49:14 -0500 Subject: Jim Bell Trial Message-ID: <200012171353.IAA22879@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> According to the court docket, Jim Bell was arraigned on Nov 29 and pled not guilty to two charges of interstate stalking. A jury trial is set to begin on Jan 22, 2001. Pretrial motions cutoff is Dec 20. Jim remanded. Entries on Dec 11 show something is up: a motion was made for a Dec 22 closed hearing on the topic of defense counsel, and Jim has sent a letter to the judge, "re: counsel." From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 17 06:51:57 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:51:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, petro wrote: > "Privilige (sic) of running a business"? > > Huh? > > Do you have the "Privilege" of being allowed to work? No, I don't. Nobody keeps you from working either as an employee of another person or indiependently. If you don't work it's because you're too damn lazy. > To say running a business is a "privilege" is to say that > every action, everything that a person does besides breathing is a > privilege. Actually the right of self-defence is the ultimate and base right on which all others are rooted. Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. > Who can bestow that privilege? Your parents, in particular your mother when they deliver a living child to the world. At that point they are yours. > Asinine. Accurate and just more like it. Asinine is believing that you can use other people as property simply because you want to make money off some activity that benefits you. Right for me, not for thee. Typical anarcho-libertarian-crypto bullshit. > Unless you are chaining people to their desks, posting armed > guards to prevent them from leaving, or using the law to prevent them > from quiting and finding another job, you aren't treating them as > property. If you're walking around telling them who they may see, what they may do outside of work, the sorts of political views they may have, the sorts of inter-personal views (eg Tim's hatred of lesbianism) and activities they may engage in, etc. Unless you can demonstrate the activity is causing a corruption of the work process it isn't any of the employers business. If you don't treat them as people with the same liberties and right of decision that you as an individual have then yes, you are in fact treating them as property. > You are treating them as adults, as independent people who > can make up their own minds as to where and under what conditions > they are willing to work. Bullshit, what you're saying is 'do it my way or else'. That isn't what business is about. As an employer your range of control over an 'adult' is to verify their actions comply with the profit making requirements of the business, and no more. It is not to use the business as a mechanism to expand your personal views onto others. > >process of making profit. Democratic theory demands that unless the > >calendar can be demonstrably infringing a civil liberty it shouldn't be an > >issue. Freedom until you infringe anothers. > > > >The fundamental flaw with Libertarianism is it's myopic focus on economic > >efficiency. It's just another form of oppression via another face of > >socialism. > > Utter nonsense. But then the further the subject strays from > programming and computers, the more that is common from you. Demostrate please. The rights of the individual are inalienable, that include a business. A business is not a right like speech. A business requires at least two parties rights do not, the other party has a say and therefore the act of business can't be a right because 'the choice' by its very nature is not confined to a single party. > >As to money being the primary goal of society and it having some ability > >to guarantee anything approaching 'justice', > > > >"Money and not morality is the principle of commerce and commercial > >nations." > > Money, or rather the trade of goods and services *is* the > morality of a society. No, it is how society funds itself. It has nothing to do with morality since even polar opposites in this respect must still engage in some sort of activity to survive. If you were correct then there would be some oppresive societies which don't use economics, which flies in the face of your assertion. This is the fundamental flaw of this view of economics. Societies don't need economics (consider a 5 person family on the African sveldt) but economies do need society (they require the population size in order to have a 'market' and they need the political and ethical stability that ensues so that 'contracts' can exist. Without contracts no economy can exist because without them there is no recognition, outside of direct force, of property rights. > Or to put it a little better, Money is the INDICATOR of the > morality of a culture. It tells you what they value, what they want > and what they think important. Money is a tool to createa stable and enjoyable society (it also creates the polar opposite). Even bad societies have money so it can't indicate anything about the society itself, other than it conforms to the human psychological norm of group behaviour. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From auto58194 at hushmail.com Sun Dec 17 06:03:31 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:03:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] Message-ID: <200012171412.GAA04880@user5.hushmail.com> "Raymond D. Mereniuk" wrote: > > Here I sit in Vancouver BC Canada paying outrageous prices for > natural gas because of the demand in California for natural gas for > heating and electrical generation purposes. I feel California should > pay for their previous decisions themselves, if you don't want power > plants don't use power or pay the complete premium for your > decision. Sorry, such is the nature of free (and shared) markets. If anything you should thank California; if they had been building more power plants, they'd be buying more natural gas and driving up your prices even more. Besides, have your prices gone up beyond your acceptable level because of California, because of cold weather, because your neighbor replaced his oil burner with a gas furnace, or because Williams Company has been spending its money laying fiber optics instead of more gas pipelines? Natural gas is a great fuel source. You, lots of Californians, and I made a good choice in deciding to use it. Perhaps we need to reevaluate our decisions given the current situation, but blaming others for making the same decision we did doesn't make much sense. > Of course the system can never be made to work in this way so > here I sit in Canada paying for bad decisions in California. Sure it can, you can just take yourself out of California's market. Buy yourself a wood stove and petition your government to build/encourage more nuclear power plants. (Hey, the bottom's fallen out of the nuclear fuel rod market and I doubt California's going to be responsible for price increases in that market any time soon.) From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 17 07:03:59 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:03:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) Message-ID: ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 08:32:15 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Choate To: Ray Dillinger Subject: Re: This is why a free society is evil. On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > Note: I really wish that people would "get" the distinction > between socialism and fascism on this list. Enlighten us then... Socialism, the management of all property and activity through a central authority, also called a 'command economy' because everything is done through the control and command of a central authority. Fascism, is the management of private property for the goals and policies of the state. Ownership of that 'private' property is contingent upon compliance and performance. The term itself comes from the Italian name for a Roman weapon which consisted of a group of reeds banded together with a axe head embedded. The point to the symbolism is that together we are stronger than apart (refering to the strength of individual reeds compared to when bundled). The distinction is simply at what point they step in and take away 'your' property. > I realize both look substantially the same from the libertarian/anarchist > perspective in that they involve controlling people. Actually, other than the issue private ownership they are nearly identical in philosophy and goals. > But they have different ideologies and reasons for controlling people, No they don't. They ostensibly want to create a workable utopic society where everyone gets what they need. The question they are trying to answer (the question that ALL political, socialogical, and religious theory try to answer) is 'who gets to make the decision' and 'what is the range of acceptable decisions'. > and to use them interchangeably is to be WRONG slightly more > than half the time. Not if used in the context I used them in. That they both end up taking the decision making point away from the individual and move it toward a central authority. In that sense the results of the two, though their process may differ, is to create a system where a few benefit from the many. > If you want a word you can use for both types of government, plus > dictatorships and feudal/aristocratic systems, try "totalitarian". A dictatorship simply means that a single individual is in charge and has ultimate authority. The resultant system can have a variety of other paramters. It is not nearly as defining a term as 'socialism' or 'fascism'. The same goes for feudal/aristocratic (which by the way aren't related in the way this pairing would indicate). And neither do these need to be totalitarian. It is quite feasible for dictatorships (say Ceasar in Rome and the relation with Jews/Christians) to harbor a variety of philosophies and political systems. > I have long felt that we could comfortably shrink government > if open markets were established to help settle such conflicts. Open markets don't settle conflicts, they barter goods. This takes us right back to the question I was asking about a few weeks ago (Hayek was asking it of you as well). How does one reach the economic equilibrium which free market economies require? It is clear that they wil not spontaneously form, despite your claims here to the contrary. > If there are no laws, and both of you are committed to resolving the > issue without violence, you probably both put money on the barrelhead > to be paid to the other in the event you don't abide by an arbitrator's > decision, and then go to an arbitrator and ask his opinion. If a bullfrog had wings it wouldn't bust its butt when it jumped. > That's if you're civic minded, I suppose. You suppose? So even you're not sure if it will work or not? Is that correct? > The fact is though, a lot of people wouldn't do that if they thought the > arbitrator was likely to side with the other guy. Why would an anarchist accept 3rd party arbitration? How is this any different than 'government'? If the arbitration doesn't conform to some sort of principle and standards then it's arbitrary and nobody with half a click of a clue will agree to arbitration with no principles or standards available. Anarchy was meant to prevent just this sort of situation. And what happens if one or more of the parties, excluding the arbiter, decide that neither want to comply? How does the arbiter enforce it? > Things become a lot easier if your property deed is a truly *complete* > description of the property; 'property deed'? There is no government or law, there is no deed. You weren't paying attention the other day during the Goldback and fractal discussions, you can't create complete descriptions. > in that case you know who owns the volume > over the fence (or whether it's held in common) and your neighbor > started charging you rent for the encroachment of your tree into his > volume years ago. And why would I do that? Where did this standard come from in an anarchy? Where is the 'law' that decides that initial 'volumetric' estimate? Why should either party comply with such a description? > If you don't want to pay the rent, you have a few choices; you can trim your > tree to keep it in your property, you can buy from him the volume over the > fence where the tree's limbs are spreading, or you can offer tenancy in > common of the volume in question, giving him the right to encroach into the > volume near your house too. Or I can tell the fat slob to trim his own roof and leave me alone. Then when he comes over later I shoot him and get both his house and mine now. > Note, this assumes sufficient government that property rights and There is no government, it's an anarchy remember. Blipverts strike again. [remainder deleted out of mercy] ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From auto58194 at hushmail.com Sun Dec 17 06:10:00 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:10:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. [Re: This is why HTML email is evil.] Message-ID: <200012171528.HAA09108@user5.hushmail.com> Tim May wrote: > > You seem to fundammentally misunderstand the situation. The reason > the Personnel Commissar is ordering sensitivity training, workshops, > and is requiring that posters of Brittny Spears be removed from > office walls is because government and lawyers have made companies > liable in various ways for "discriminatory" or "sexist" or suchlike > behaviors. Perhaps I killed my point in editing. Laws exist as a result of people using their property to advance their agenda and/or to protect their property. That companies decided not to fight the passage of harassment laws was a decision they made about how they used their property. That companies today give in rather than fight them is also their decision. Corporations tend to value their own property over the free expression of their employees. Should this be surprising? Is it wrong? Should property owners be compelled to value the free expression of their employees higher than they do? I don't like the current result any more than you do, but it's not the result of living in an unfree society, it's the result of living in a society with different values than our own. In other words, to get the freedoms we want, we have to take away other freedoms. > You're really missing the point, aren't you? Go back and think about > the issues more deeply. Well, I'll always miss the point of people complaining about not living in a free society/economy when they use reasons that indicate they don't really want to live in a free society/economy. I want to keep this short, but there's something to be said for a free society being either impossible or a truth. In a free society, you're free to do something, and others are free to try and stop you. Either this makes a free society impossible because of conflicting ideals or it's a truth because people are always free to attempt changing society. Laws and governments you don't like are an indication that the other side currently has the upper hand, but you're still free to try changing them. Until you give up or die, you're free. Perhaps it's not a free society you want, but a society with a higher value on private/personal freedoms. Perhaps you even want a society that values private freedoms higher than private property. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 17 08:45:35 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:45:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: One thing about Bell's case... Message-ID: It seems to me that charging Bell for 'stalking' in relation to the collection of public documents violates his 1st Amendment rights with respect to 'press'. Not only does that right guarantee you the right to distribute, but it guarantee's my right as a potential reader to access. Every citizen has a right to collect what public information they can on public officials; elected, appointed, or hired. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Sun Dec 17 10:47:11 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:47:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: >> I have long felt that we could comfortably shrink government >> if open markets were established to help settle such conflicts. > >Open markets don't settle conflicts, they barter goods. And most conflicts are over goods, if you think about them that way. The tree is property, which encroaches into the volume near a neighbor's house. Conflict arises because it was never spelled out in the first place who owned that volume. If it had been, the choices are simpler and less ambiguous: get out of it, buy it, sell it, or charge rent on it. The factory is property, which encroaches into air quality. Conflicts arise because it was never spelled out in the first place who owned the right to what quality of air. The factory owner shouldn't be looking at legislation, per se; instead he should have to buy pollution rights on the local market, competing against other factory owners for the relatively small amount of contamination people have agreed to sell. Et cetera. All of this assumes that there is some means of transfer pricing stuff, some means of enforcing contracts, and a defined, extensive, set of property rights. >> That's if you're civic minded, I suppose. > >You suppose? So even you're not sure if it will work or not? Is that >correct? Total anarchy? Hell no, it won't work. Whatever gave you the idea that I thought it would? What I've been talking about is minimal government. The interesting question, to me, is what is the SMALLEST amount of government interference required to build a functional society? I believe that sufficient government to enforce property rights and freely entered contracts is absolutely required. That is not a total anarchy, and I do not want to live in a total anarchy. It is however, a minimum possible government -- and looks a lot like what most so-called 'anarchists' mean when they're talking about anarchy. I also believe that this "minimum possible government" would not in general build as successful a society as a government that appropriated enough power to make sure that education were available to everybody, and that there was a communication and transportation infrastructure that everybody could use, and which ruthlessly busted monopolies (whether on goods or on labor) into small competing fragments. >Why would an anarchist accept 3rd party arbitration? To avoid death. >How is this any >different than 'government'? It's different because it's chosen. If the guy doesn't want to go to an arbitrator, he can choose to go to war with his neighbor, and run the risk of getting killed, either by his neighbor or by his neighbors' friend or family. In a society with laws and courts, you generally don't have a choice about that. >If the arbitration doesn't conform to some >sort of principle and standards then it's arbitrary and nobody with half a >click of a clue will agree to arbitration with no principles or standards >available. Anarchy was meant to prevent just this sort of situation. Huh? Anarchy *is* the absence of standards(laws) as far as I know. Arbitration or dispute settlement of some kind has to happen regardless of whether there are standards. So, in an anarchy, dispute settlement has to happen in an unprincipled way because there are no standards available. Anarchy doesn't prevent this; it directly causes it! Your point about only idiots going voluntarily into an arbitration not bound by laws is valid, of course, but A, the alternative is probably a shooting war that they are trying to avoid, and B, if we are talking about people who have apparently chosen to live in a society where laws are unavailable, they're probably not too bright anyway. >And what happens if one or more of the parties, excluding the arbiter, >decide that neither want to comply? How does the arbiter enforce it? The arbiter probably doesn't. If they don't want to comply, they just start shooting. But see the earlier point about a desire to avoid death. That's why they'd have come to an arbiter in the first place. Failure to abide by the decision would subtantially increase risk of getting killed. Being in violation of an arbitration would probably substantially increase your risk of going unavenged if you got killed, too, while increasing the risk of a vengeance killing against you in the event that you won the shooting war. Bear From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 17 10:48:42 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:48:42 -0800 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20001217105723.A13002@esatclear.ie> References: <20001217105723.A13002@esatclear.ie> Message-ID: At 10:57 AM -0700 12/17/00, Tiarnan O Corrain wrote: >Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:Re- CDR- Re- This is why a free >(MiME/CSOm) (00012800) Please in-line your text. Your message above appears as an attachment (only, not just a digital signature). Sometimes Eudora Pro, a common e-mail program, is able to open such messages, sometimes not. In your particular case, for whatever reasons, attempting to open your attachment crashes my program. I tried three times, then gave up. Folks, this increase in MIME attachments is getting out of hand. People are reading this list on a variety of machines, from PDAs to Amigas to VT100s to Unix boxes to Windows. I am filtering Corrain's stuff into my trash file until someone (else) tells me his stuff is no longer MIME-encrusted. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ocorrain at esatclear.ie Sun Dec 17 09:57:25 2000 From: ocorrain at esatclear.ie (Tiarnan O Corrain) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:57:25 -0700 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from ravage@ssz.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 09:03:59AM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20001217105723.A13002@esatclear.ie> On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 09:03:59AM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >...A Roman weapon which consisted of a group of reeds banded together > with a axe head embedded. The point to the symbolism is that together we > are stronger than apart (refering to the strength of individual reeds > compared to when bundled). Not quite true. It was the symbol carried by Roman jurists as a sign of their authority. A weapon, perhaps, but not used for cracking heads. -- Tiarnán Ó Corráin "Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus." --- GPG fingerprint: 4A05 1FC3 5370 2696 C60D 59DD 71AF EBEF 1AE6 018F GPG public key at: http://www.esatclear.ie/~blackpitts/ocorrain.gpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hbb62gp at usa.net Sun Dec 17 12:48:16 2000 From: hbb62gp at usa.net (hbb62gp at usa.net) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:48:16 Subject: IT'S TIME TO GET EXCITED! Message-ID: <375.239367.162730@server2001> Are you brave enough to stare true wealth in the face and walk away? Well, we're about to see the truth. If you are totally happy with your current finances then please DO NOT GO ANY FURTHER, delete this message right now. BUT, if you're sick of all those bills and never having enough money for life's luxuries, then do yourself a favor. Send an email to: hbb62gp at prontomail.com and put "wealthclub" in the subject field. As soon as we receive it we will rush you the URL of our website. Sending an email will take you 10 seconds.... 10 seconds that will change your life forever. PS. You don't have to send a "remove" message. There will be NO follow ups. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 17 10:58:17 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:58:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20001217105723.A13002@esatclear.ie> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Tiarnan O Corrain wrote: > Not quite true. It was the symbol carried by Roman jurists as a sign of > their authority. A weapon, perhaps, but not used for cracking heads. Not quite accurate either. Forward to sophist pendantry! >From one site I found using google and 'fasces'... Ancient Roman symbol of the regal and later the magisterial authority. The fasces were cylindrical buncles of wooden rods, tied tightly together, from which an axe projected; they were borne by guards, called lictors, before preators, consuls, proconsuls, dictators, and emporors. The fasces, which symbolize unity as well as power, have often been used as emblems. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cels451 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 17 13:18:11 2000 From: cels451 at yahoo.com (montag montag) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:18:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: throw-away acct test Message-ID: <20001217211811.50599.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com> testing ... testing .... CHECK ! It works. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sun Dec 17 13:36:18 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:36:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "Tim May" at Dec 17, 2000 10:48:42 AM Message-ID: <200012172136.eBHLaIC11365@artifact.psychedelic.net> Tim May writes: > Folks, this increase in MIME attachments is getting out of hand. > People are reading this list on a variety of machines, from PDAs to > Amigas to VT100s to Unix boxes to Windows. I have a solution. I keep MIME turned off, and if the 7-bit representation of the message is not instantly recognizable as substantially English, I hit delete. Sometimes, if I am in a bad mood, I hit delete upon seeing the large "M" next to the message on the index, and don't even bother reading it. If the MIME infestation proliferates, this process can be automated. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From citizenQ at ziplip.com Sun Dec 17 13:53:37 2000 From: citizenQ at ziplip.com (citizenQ) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:53:37 -0800 Subject: www.votewithamerica.com Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Dec 17 14:33:42 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:33:42 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <20001216162005.G28790@slack.lne.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001216155305.01e9c3f0@shell11.ba.best.com> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <20001216112425.B9768@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001216155305.01e9c3f0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217142554.01dbdc20@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 04:20 PM 12/16/2000 -0800, Eric Murray wrote: On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:00:38PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote: At 11:24 AM 12/16/2000 -0800, Eric Murray wrote: > > > Only by running your own mail or news server can you prevent the > > > ISP from monitoring your email or news reading. James A. Donald: > > My newsreader, like most people's newsreaders, automatically > > downloads those newsgroups I am interested in full, in the > > background. Therefore there is no way anyone can know which > > particular message of "alt.anonymous.messages" I have read. At 04:20 PM 12/16/2000 -0800, Eric Murray wrote: > Interesting. I didn't know that newsreaders did that. I use Agent. If you do not use such a newsreader, you should probably use the "secret-admirers" list, to ensure that no one can tell which particular message you care about. If, however, you use a newsreader like Agent to download all of alt.anonymous.messages, as I do, you get the same security, and greater obscurity. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG D4D8Ck83IFj+/qa3eqIHud9NAAUPg5/K0N6dWb1O 4+p5eC9ANt2j9BVvAyA+VHgEr+sl7n0EiST9AFodH From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Dec 17 14:37:47 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:37:47 -0800 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217143606.01ea0bb0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 02:15 AM 12/17/2000 -0800, petro wrote: > Her civil liberties aren't the employers property. Further, the > PRIVILIGE of running a business does not have greater importance > than freedom of speech and such. If running a business is a privilege, then of course it will be restricted to the privileged, which is exactly what we see in the more extreme social democracies, where the people running the show are usually the lineal descendents of those who got their start at the time of Napoleon. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG v3qxyKbLMz4jMhEuuO+gleBfPXjm9aH4lPJElTCM 4a7b9+GMOQHNYIGTf4tq026J5OgmLPmAFeJcHNyD/ From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Dec 17 14:42:23 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:42:23 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: References: <20001216162005.G28790@slack.lne.com> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <20001216112425.B9768@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001216155305.01e9c3f0@shell11.ba.best.com> <20001216162005.G28790@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217143801.01dbd9d0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 02:24 AM 12/17/2000 -0800, petro wrote: > I believe that most download all of the headers, and then only > download the articles one is interested in--at least the "Online" > newsreaders do it this way. That is the default, but the settings can be changed for one newsgroup, or all of them. You should do this for the newsgroups you are particularly interested in, for the sake of convenience, and for those newsgroups were logging could cause you embarrassment. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG V67BeHiP9lyUN6mI1ELFbcXfLdJgZSp3avO3hKe7 4Z8a2Cx+RNvdnJr00fMpkATXo11egKTl8xShvSjD/ From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Dec 17 14:46:17 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:46:17 -0800 Subject: Jim Bell Trial In-Reply-To: <200012171353.IAA22879@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217144256.01da6d80@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 08:49 AM 12/17/2000 -0500, John Young wrote: > According to the court docket, Jim Bell was arraigned on Nov 29 and > pled not guilty to two charges of nterstate stalking. > > A jury trial is set to begin on Jan 22, 2001. Pretrial motions > cutoff is Dec 20. Jim remanded. > > Entries on Dec 11 show something is up: a motion was made for a Dec > 22 closed hearing on the topic of defense counsel, and Jim has sent > a letter to the judge, re: counsel." In politically sensitive cases, government likes to choose the council, and frequently chooses council that makes the defendant extremely unhappy. Probably Jim Bell is broke, but he has not been soliciting assistance for his council --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG i6LIpurz+lmqKE2ZaPdnR1CeMBS2wzpnNUmMLZMk 4+HBUQif8SGqFY207ZitYJ7c9RNEtaCnYmPBdoWmZ From dnsreg at eudoramail.com Sun Dec 17 15:30:49 2000 From: dnsreg at eudoramail.com (dnsreg at eudoramail.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:30:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: De interes para los que tengan un dominio registrado Message-ID: <200012172330.PAA26347@toad.com> Tienes un dominio registrado ? Y pagas hasta 35$ por su renovacion ? Pues si estas a pocos meses de la renovacion y lo transfieres este mes solo te costara 20,5$ ? Solicita informacion http://dominios.mainpage.net -----------------------REMOVE------------------------------ SI NO QUIERE RECIBIR MAS MENSAJES DESDE ESTA DIRECCION VAYA AL LINK INDICADO Y SERA DADO DE BAJA INMEDIATAMENTE. DICHO LINK ES UN SERVICIO INDEPENDIENTE DEL ENVIO DE ESTE EMAIL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dar de baja de la lista de distribucion - remove distribution list http://dowjones.st/to/Removing RemovingNet. Cuentas gratuitas para el control de bajas. Free accounts for the control of "unsubscribes" RemovingNet nada tiene que ver con este email ni con su contenido RemovingNet nothing has to do with this email nor with contained his ---------------------------------------------------------------- IF it DOES NOT WANT TO RECEIVE BUT MESSAGES SINCE THIS EMAIL ADDRESS CLICK THE LINK And TO BE DROPPED IMMEDIATELY. REMOVING.NET IS A INDEPENDENT SERVICE -----------------------REMOVE------------------------------ From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Sun Dec 17 15:31:20 2000 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:31:20 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <200012171412.GAA04880@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3A3CDC53.14112.35AD500@localhost> auto58194 at hushmail.com wrote > Sorry, such is the nature of free (and shared) markets. If anything > you should thank California; if they had been building more power > plants, they'd be buying more natural gas and driving up your prices > even more. Actually if California had been building power plants in recent years we would not have this short term price issue. If they had built a power plant they would have committed to a supplier of natural gas who would have arranged a supply (drill wells) and arranged delivery (build pipeline capacity). The problem now is no one in California made commitments so the market did not build supply and delivery capacity. California consumers are now forced to purchase their requirements in a commodity market causing the current distortions. > Besides, have your prices gone up beyond your acceptable level because > of California, because of cold weather, because your neighbour replaced > his oil burner with a gas furnace, or because Williams Company has > been spending its money laying fiber optics instead of more gas > pipelines? The consumer price for natural gas here is based on the delivery price at Sumas Washington which is a pipeline crossing into the USA and a major supply point to California. The cost to heat my home will have more than doubled by January 1st. The price I must pay is heavily influenced by demand in California. It is always cold here and the furnace is even used in the summer. There are more people in California than in all of Canada and most Canadians live on the other side of the continent. This market is much too small to influence the price of natural gas. In the past natural gas prices were determined by the price of oil. When oil prices were low exploration companies had less capital available for exploration. In general exploration companies only search for natural gas when they have delivery contracts. Collection systems, pipelines, are only built when there is a market for the natural gas. If natural gas power plants were built in California the gas would be available. If oil prices had been higher in recent years exploration companies would have probably have attempted to build reserves of natural gas but chances are the delivery system would not be in place so there would still be a shortage. > Natural gas is a great fuel source. You, lots of Californians, and I > made a good choice in deciding to use it. Perhaps we need to > reevaluate our decisions given the current situation, but blaming > others for making the same decision we did doesn't make much sense. Natural gas is a good choice but maybe not the best. While natural gas is considered clean burning the emissions for even a smaller plant is measured in the thousands of tonnes per year. There is some risk involved with pipelines, if they break there is always a fire if not an explosion. There will now be significant political pressure to bring Alaskan natural gas to the California market, lots of issues here to keep the liberal tree huggers busy for years. There are only two ways to get it to the market, pipeline or liquidify it and use a tanker. I believe I would rather have nuclear power plant in my neighbourhood than a liquidified natural gas facility. > Sure it can, you can just take yourself out of California's market. > Buy yourself a wood stove and petition your government to > build/encourage more nuclear power plants. (Hey, the bottom's fallen > out of the nuclear fuel rod market and I doubt California's going to > be responsible for price increases in that market any time soon.) It would be nice if you could wave a magic wand and separate markets, but that cure would be probably worse than the disease. The current pricing issue is a short term one. A few years of higher prices and the market will response with more supply and delivery capacity. I have done the wood stove thing and it is a bunch of work plus it is very hard on air quality. Coal fired furnaces are less work but very hard on air quality. It would be nice if Californians took responsibility for their lifestyle, built the power plants in California and dealt with environmental issues themselves. You have a choice, if you don't want power plants, don't use power. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca "Need Someone To Tell You What To Do?" FBN - The Consultants http://www.fbn.bc.ca/consultg.html From richardh at js-group.com Sun Dec 17 00:44:26 2000 From: richardh at js-group.com (Richard Hawkins) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:44:26 +0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000701c06805$90dcf9a0$dda24dca@richard-hawkins> loser -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 283 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 17 17:19:02 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:19:02 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <3A3CDC53.14112.35AD500@localhost> References: <3A3CDC53.14112.35AD500@localhost> Message-ID: At 3:31 PM -0800 12/17/00, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > >The consumer price for natural gas here is based on the delivery >price at Sumas Washington which is a pipeline crossing into the >USA and a major supply point to California. The cost to heat my >home will have more than doubled by January 1st. The price I must >pay is heavily influenced by demand in California. It is always cold >here and the furnace is even used in the summer. There are more >people in California than in all of Canada and most Canadians live >on the other side of the continent. This market is much too small to >influence the price of natural gas. Size of a market is a shifting concept. British Columbia and Vancouver are certainly large markets. If there were a nuclear power plant in western Canada, much of its output would likely go to Vancouver. Guess what? No nuke plants in western Canada. > >tanker. I believe I would rather have nuclear power plant in my >neighbourhood than a liquidified natural gas facility. Perhaps you can lobby your politicians to allow nuclear power plants to be built in your region, then. > >It would be nice if Californians took responsibility for their lifestyle, >built the power plants in California and dealt with environmental >issues themselves. You have a choice, if you don't want power >plants, don't use power. This whole post shows a shaky understanding of economics. You are bitching and moaning that someone else's bids on power exceed what you would like to pay. "I would like to have a Ferrari Testarossa, but there are so many people around the world willing to pay such outrageous prices that the prices have simply gotten out of control. If Californian would take responsibility for their outrageous lifestyles, there would not be so many Californians buying Ferraris and we people in British Columbia would have a chance to afford them." As for your own energy needs, install propane. This is what I have. And fill the tank well in advance of when spot market fluctuations drive the price up. Or move to a warmer clime. Living in the far north _does_ carry a price. Also, bear in mind that a lot of off-peak power is shipped into Canada from the Bonneville Power Administration. It seems we Yanks had the foresight to dam the Columbia River back in the 1930s. It's a reason the Hanford Nuclear Reservation was located in the Tri-Cities area--cheap and plentiful power--and it's a reason several aluminum smelters, including a Canadian one, located there. And a bunch of chip companies. I don't have the time to spend doing detailed research, but with the many nuclear plants in Oregon, Washington, Idaho, etc., and the zero nuke plants in the western part of Canada, and the Bonneville Power Administration, I wouldn't be surprised at all if more net power doesn't flow across _into_ B.C. than out of it. Just a hunch. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From bback9214- at aol.com Sun Dec 17 18:06:26 2000 From: bback9214- at aol.com (Duayne) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:06:26 -0600 Subject: FREE: Promote Your URL + Great Income Opportunity! Message-ID: <200012180204.KAA21988@aac1.> IMPORTANT - FREE FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY! We all know the hassle of submitting forms and entering your details countless of times to multiple search engines and FFA sites just to get your URL listed. What if you could submit to all those sites (7,304 sites to be exact), with just ONE submission? With our software "Always Freesubmit", you can submit your website's URL and ads to 1800+ search engines, FFA pages, Classified Ad sites, plus popular business related directories on the Net - a combined total of 7,304 unique locations, all for FREE! Yes, that's right, FREE! - Always Freesubmit is currently available for download FREE at our site at: http://www.geocities.com/mktg2001/?157704-087756 Hurry! Download it today as this FREE download may be removed at any time in the future. While you are at the site, please take a look at the other great offers and FREE software that we have available for your downloading pleasure. EXTRA BONUS: Want to know about a great income opportunity? How does a monthly residual income in excess of $10,000 sound? Now that is definitely worth a look! More details at our site. See you there! The Freesubmit Team 0 NO SPAM POLICY: We send our message to over 2,000 opt-in mailing lists, customers, contacts and targetted prospects under the category of Business, Business Opportunities, Network Marketing, MLM and Home Business. If we have reached you in error, we apologize. Please submit your name and email at the "Remove" section at our site, and you will be added to our remove database. We honor all remove requests and do not sell or publish email addresses. From natalie at customers.MIT.EDU Sun Dec 17 21:14:59 2000 From: natalie at customers.MIT.EDU (natalie at customers.MIT.EDU) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:14:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: AD;WORK AT HOME - MAKE EXTRA $$$$ -CDVI Message-ID: <200012180514.VAA11259@cyberpass.net> This really is worth your valuable time, so... PLEASE PRINT THIS NOW FOR READING AT YOUR LEISURE, YOU WILL NOT REGRET IT. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Friend, You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending E-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details. Is there a catch? NO!!! There is no catch. Just send your emails; and, You will be on your way to financial freedom. AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION: Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news Lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see, if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless, and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW." ================================================ *** Print This Now (IF YOU HAVE NOT already done it) for Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed Program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEYMAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This Multi-level e-mail order-marketing program work perfectly, 100% of EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more savvy people will be taking your business using e-mail. Get what is rightfully yours. Program yourself for success and dare to think BIG. MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics have show that 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer, Donald Trump made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here; and, you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing, you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!! In mid December of 1997, I received this program via e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT !!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office p4-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT." Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is my time. I am telling you like it is. I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much-needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! ------------------------------------------------------ A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: By the time you have read the enclosed program, you may have concluded that an amateur could not have created such a legal program that works. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rates...because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I would not see a penny of this money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices that do this program and several other programs here and over seas. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ****************************************************** THINK ABOUT IT: Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA ****************************************************** HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say, "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store, or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. Within a few days, you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANTDO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the four reports, take this Advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $50,000! c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! Copy and paste method works well. 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the Internet, the 4 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list, the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 people mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That amounts to 10,000 each of $5 bills for you in CASH MONEY!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000+ $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF-SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE !!! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response). Also, assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results Below (same as email example): 1st level-your 10 members with $5.........$50 2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).......$500 3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) $5,000 4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 THIS TOTALS ---------------------------$55,550 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruits 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! ------------------------------------------ AVAILABLE REPORTS ------------------------------------------ *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper (IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters problems). PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Natalie Kowalczyk 3595 Copernicus Dr. Mississauga, ON L5B 3L3 Canada ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet." Victor Verosta 1324 28th Ave. Fairbanks, AK 99701 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet." ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: Frai Roorda 127 Franklin Drive Voorhees, NJ 08043 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet." ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: Joe Bogdanovich 6331 Highland Estates Drive St. Louis, MO 63129 ______________________________________________________ About 50,000 new people get online every month! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICES ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question..... DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE (except for bulk mailing cost)! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 AND BULK MAILING COST INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER. ******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR ****************************************************** My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program, I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks, she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days, she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM. Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL ****************************************************** The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. Charles Morris, Esq. *************************************************** Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return. Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA ************************************************** I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program. Eleven months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!!! I made more than $41,000 on the first try!! Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA **************************************************** This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY *************************************************** ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS ______________________________________________________ FOR YOUR INFORMATION: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1- (800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. IT IS TOTALLY UP TO YOU HOW!!! CAN YOU HANDLE SUCCESS AND ALL THAT MONEY??? _______________________________________________________ REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS: You may easily remove yourself from this ProSend account by simply clicking on the link below: http://www.pro- send.com/remove/?6B6FC7851E OR go to: http://www.pro-send.com/remove/ and enter this "Removal Code" when prompted: 6B6FC7851E From brian at nexuscomputing.com Sun Dec 17 21:57:07 2000 From: brian at nexuscomputing.com (Brian Lane) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:57:07 -0800 Subject: throw-away acct test In-Reply-To: <20001217211811.50599.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com>; from cels451@yahoo.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:18:11PM -0800 References: <20001217211811.50599.qmail@web11403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20001217215707.B1910@nexuscomputing.com> On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:18:11PM -0800, montag montag wrote: > testing ... testing .... CHECK ! > > It works. > Not too useful when Yahoo records your IP address. Received: from [64.164.25.91] by web11403.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 +13:18:11 PST Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:18:11 -0800 (PST) From: montag montag Subject: throw-away acct test And when there are only a couple of regular posters using similar connections to adsl-64-164-25-91.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net I'd guess that there is a moderate probability of you being "Jonathan Wienke" - JonathanW (adsl-64-164-156-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.164.156.82]) from a couple of recent postings. Of course this is all rampant speculation on my part. Brian -- Brian C. Lane - Linux Programmer/Consultant/Writer www.brianlane.com Virtual Web Hosting www.nexuscomputing.com NRA Life Member www.libertynews.org ============================================================================ 911 -- government sponsored Dial-a-Prayer. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Dec 17 22:33:22 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:33:22 -0800 Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism In-Reply-To: References: <3A3BE57E.14508.23440ACD@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001217223322.00b02100@idiom.com> At 08:35 AM 12/17/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >The reality is the NW people got what they deserved. They voted to use the >Cali. power grid instead of their own. > >No injustice or wrong has occured here because everyone got a say. You >reap what you sow. It's a market thing, or as liberals would say, it's about sharing. Power generation capacity on the West Coast normally balances between California air conditioning in the summer and Northwest heating in the winter, and if each area had enough capacity for all its needs, the system would be way overbuilt. I don't know if Northwesters are as aggressive Not In My Back Yarders as Californians about building power plants, but it's much more efficient to use a power grid. Except, of course, when you overload it and stress the capacity limits and have stuff catch fire in the summer... Besides, Jim, as a Texan your tradition role in discussions of natural gas policies is supposed to be to say "let the bastards freeze in the dark" :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Dec 17 22:48:40 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:48:40 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001216155305.01e9c3f0@shell11.ba.best.com> References: <20001216112425.B9768@slack.lne.com> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001217224840.009361e0@idiom.com> At 04:00 PM 12/16/00 -0800, James A. Donald wrote: >My newsreader, like most people's newsreaders, automatically downloads >those newsgroups I am interested in full, in the background. Therefore >there is no way anyone can no which particular message of >"alt.anonymous.messages" I have read. Agent or Free Agent can be set to do this, and it may make sense for newsgroups where articles are short, but I certainly wouldn't run in that mode for a newsgroup that had large postings that I didn't want all of. The binary program newsgroups are a good example of this - article bodies are often 64 times as large as the headers, if they stick to 64KB, or much larger if they don't, unlike text oriented groups where they may be 4 times as large, so downloading the entire contents on modems is really slow. >Alt.anonymous.messages is completely effective. It does not provide mere >obscurity, but rather supplies true security. To determine who I am >communicating with, and what I was saying, the adversary would need to >compromise my firewalled computer. The adversary might have a good idea who's actively downloading the group from a number of major isps. That doesn't mean they'll know who's reading it from random-isp.ru or direct off the spool at random.edu.au, but if they really care, they can get a good idea how many people are reading the group, even if they don't know which articles you read. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Dec 17 23:31:42 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:31:42 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001217224840.009361e0@idiom.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001216155305.01e9c3f0@shell11.ba.best.com> <20001216112425.B9768@slack.lne.com> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> <3A3BA5D5.FE849DE3@crosswinds.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217232937.01b18350@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 04:00 PM 12/16/00 -0800, James A. Donald wrote: > > Alt.anonymous.messages is completely effective. It does not > > provide mere obscurity, but rather supplies true security. To > > determine who I am communicating with, and what I was saying, the > > adversary would need to compromise my firewalled computer. At 10:48 PM 12/17/2000 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: > The adversary might have a good idea who's actively downloading the > group from a number of major isps. That doesn't mean they'll know > who's reading it from random-isp.ru or direct off the spool at > random.edu.au, but if they really care, they can get a good idea how > many people are reading the group, even if they don't know which > articles you read. The main thing they will discover is that a lot of people are reading and posting. This makes the information that one particular person is posting and reading not very useful. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG QwmsBPfy58qWPZWmR4qXZSs3cPuVXmkgnE//bq80 4QqXBGe1FmmaA+VkDuH4uyezo0M1bqUp5F44ZJM2U From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Dec 18 00:07:27 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 00:07:27 -0800 Subject: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001218000727.009c2320@idiom.com> Ed Gerck, Eva Waskell who publishes The Bell, and another friend of theirs attended a recent Bay Area Cypherpunks meeting. Interesting people, and they added a lot to the discussion. Ed's ideas on certificates and trust are different than, say, Carl Ellison's or the X.509 mafia's or Phil Zimmermann's, but he's not a crank, and it was good having him around. At 05:37 PM 12/14/00, Gil Hamilton wrote: >Robert Guerra forwards: >>---------- Forwarded Message ---------- >>From: Ed Gerck >>To: DIGSIG at LISTSERV.TEMPLE.EDU >>Subject: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology > >[snip] > >Just an FYI. I was checking this out when I noticed via >WHOIS that > www.thebell.net > www.safevote.com > www.ivta.org > [and possibly even NMA.com?] >are all apparently self-promotional mouthpieces for this Gerck >fellow (formerly of the "Meta-Certificate Group", another >self-promotion vehicle) who has shown up on cypherpunks and other >crypto/security lists from time to time, usually with somewhat >crankish ideas. > Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From cashfromhome56 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 18 00:22:08 2000 From: cashfromhome56 at hotmail.com (cashfromhome56 at hotmail.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 00:22:08 Subject: TRY THIS!! YOU WILL MAKE MONEY!! Message-ID: <526.694862.217681@server01> This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV : ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ================================================================= ==== Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ================ PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ========== $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ================ Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ================= For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. === When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. === Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. === IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ================================================================= ==== **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ================================================================= ==== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ================================================================= ==== REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ================================================================= ==== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ====================== AVAILABLE REPORTS==================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ================================================================= ==== REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' Order Report # 1 from: Nick Bramble 1117 Porter Dr. Charlotte, MI 48813 USA _________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report # 2 from : Loren Stone P. O. Box 6232 Clearfield, UT 84089 USA _________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' Order Report # 3 from: A.S. Dorsey 521 Lee Street Hampton, VA 23669 USA ________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report # 4 from: Heidi Bohm 1095 Osceola Ave #103 St Paul, MN 55105 U.S.A. ________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report # 5 from: Randall Williams 401 Stocks Dairy Road Leesburg, GA 31763 U.S.A. ______________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ================================================================= ==== FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ==================== MORE TESTIMONIALS====================== '' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldnt work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois ================================================================= ==== '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ================================================================= ==== '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ================================================================= ==== '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ================================================================= ==== ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ================================================================= ==== If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ============================THE END========================= This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/S771index.html Further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- From commerce at home.com Sun Dec 17 22:00:26 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:00:26 -0500 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. References: Message-ID: <014301c068b7$d3dcf130$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Choate" > Crypto-anarchy and libertarianism are just another form > of fascism at best and socialism at worst. It's a means > for one group of people to oppress and control another. > [new msg] > I look forward to your defence of crypto-anarchy-libertarian ideals. > [cut, a lot of attacks on anarchy] I would like to defend libertarianism, I don't believe I can defend anarchy. I don't believe a system that lacks a government operating military and judicial services would be efficient. I would respond to your claim that libertarianism is 'fascism at best and socialism at worst', but I can't even come close to guessing what you might be basing that upon. From ultratrim2000 at aol.com Mon Dec 18 02:33:24 2000 From: ultratrim2000 at aol.com (ultratrim2000 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:33:24 Subject: LOSE 30 POUNDS IN 30 DAYS, GUARANTEED! Message-ID: <616.500680.24776@mail01.homeworkers23232.com> *****AMAZING MELT AWAY FAT ABSORBER CAPSULES***** LOSE 30 POUNDS IN 30 DAYS... GUARANTEED!!! 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Shipping Name______________________________________________ Shipping Address___________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ Shipping City,State,Zip ___________________________________________________________ Country ___________________________________________________________ Email Address & Phone Number(Please Write Neat) From commerce at home.com Sun Dec 17 23:47:18 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:47:18 -0500 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of CaliforniaLiberalism] References: <3A3CDC53.14112.35AD500@localhost> Message-ID: <019901c068c6$c013cbb0$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" > Perhaps you can lobby your politicians to allow nuclear power > plants to be built in [British Columbia], then. The politicians are the only electricity producers in British Columbia. From mis at itiaccess.com Mon Dec 18 03:16:59 2000 From: mis at itiaccess.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:16:59 -0800 Subject: throw-away acct test In-Reply-To: <20001217215707.B1910@nexuscomputing.com> Message-ID: <000401c068e4$0ace5360$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> Close, but no cigar. 64.164.25.91 != 64.164.156.82, but both are PacBell DSL static IP addresses. 64.164.156.82 used to belong to the corporate DSL line going into my office building. Not long ago, the DSL service was upgraded and was assigned a new IP address, and about the same time, we set up a mail server attached to the DSL line and I got a new mail address on the new domain. Jonathan Wienke -----Original Message----- From: Brian Lane [mailto:brian at nexuscomputing.com] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 9:57 PM To: montag montag Cc: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: throw-away acct test On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:18:11PM -0800, montag montag wrote: > testing ... testing .... CHECK ! > > It works. > Not too useful when Yahoo records your IP address. Received: from [64.164.25.91] by web11403.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 +13:18:11 PST Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:18:11 -0800 (PST) From: montag montag Subject: throw-away acct test And when there are only a couple of regular posters using similar connections to adsl-64-164-25-91.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net I'd guess that there is a moderate probability of you being "Jonathan Wienke" - JonathanW (adsl-64-164-156-82.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.164.156.82]) from a couple of recent postings. Of course this is all rampant speculation on my part. Brian -- Brian C. Lane - Linux Programmer/Consultant/Writer www.brianlane.com Virtual Web Hosting www.nexuscomputing.com NRA Life Member www.libertynews.org ============================================================================ 911 -- government sponsored Dial-a-Prayer. From mis at itiaccess.com Mon Dec 18 03:18:48 2000 From: mis at itiaccess.com (Jonathan Wienke) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:18:48 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of CaliforniaLiberalism] In-Reply-To: <019901c068c6$c013cbb0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: <000501c068e4$4b98a120$0801a8c0@gbgcorp.com> I thought politicians mainly produced natural gas. -----Original Message----- From: Me [mailto:commerce at home.com] Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2000 11:47 PM To: cypherpunks at cyberpass.net Subject: Re: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of CaliforniaLiberalism] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" > Perhaps you can lobby your politicians to allow nuclear power > plants to be built in [British Columbia], then. The politicians are the only electricity producers in British Columbia. From bennett at peacefire.org Mon Dec 18 05:00:09 2000 From: bennett at peacefire.org (Bennett Haselton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 05:00:09 -0800 Subject: universal censorware-bypass program Message-ID: A new program, "Peacefire", is available on our Web page that can disable all popular Windows blocking programs with the click of a button -- released just as Congress has passed the first mandatory-blocking-software bill. Since the House and Senate passed corresponding versions of the Labor HHS Education Appropriations Bill (HR 4577) on Friday, with an amendment included to require the use of blocking software in schools and libraries that receive federal funding, it is likely to become law soon. The American Library Association announced the passage of the House bill in the December 15 issue of the ALA Washington Office Newsline: http://peacefire.org/censorware/alawon.12-15-2000.txt In response, Peacefire has released a bypass program -- eponymously named "Peacefire" -- which can disable all popular Windows blocking software (Cyber Patrol, SurfWatch, Net Nanny, CYBERsitter, X-Stop, Cyber Snoop, PureSight) with the click of a button. The program is available at http://www.peacefire.org/bypass/ A floppy disk with a copy of this program on it, could make a great Christmas present for the right person :) -Bennett ------ bennett at peacefire.org http://www.peacefire.org (425) 649 9024 ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt at coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per month) Matthew Gaylor, 1933 E. Dublin-Granville Rd., PMB 176, Columbus, OH 43229 (614) 313-5722 Archived at http://www.egroups.com/list/fa/ ************************************************************************** From royb at goingplatinum.com Mon Dec 18 06:20:40 2000 From: royb at goingplatinum.com (royb at goingplatinum.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 06:20:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Going Platinum Message-ID: <200012181420.GAA16300@toad.com> I have sent this email to tell you about an innovative new program that is ROCKING THE INTERNET WORLD! Going Platinum is a new cooperative online community that PAYS YOU and is certain to change the way that you use the Internet forever! Just click on the link below to get in on the excitement! http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/royb If your browser does not highlight the above link please just copy and paste the following URL in the address bar: http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/royb My Going Platinum Member ID is "royb" Or for more information, send a blank email to: doublemoney at goingplatinum.com Best regards, Roy Bert Please note that this is not SPAM. You've sent me an offer, answered to my ads lately or we are members of the same op-in list. To be removed from my private mailing list just hit the reply button and put REMOVE in the subject line From royb at goingplatinum.com Mon Dec 18 06:23:11 2000 From: royb at goingplatinum.com (royb at goingplatinum.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 06:23:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Going Platinum Message-ID: <200012181423.GAA21668@cyberpass.net> I have sent this email to tell you about an innovative new program that is ROCKING THE INTERNET WORLD! Going Platinum is a new cooperative online community that PAYS YOU and is certain to change the way that you use the Internet forever! Just click on the link below to get in on the excitement! http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/royb If your browser does not highlight the above link please just copy and paste the following URL in the address bar: http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/royb My Going Platinum Member ID is "royb" Or for more information, send a blank email to: doublemoney at goingplatinum.com Best regards, Roy Bert Please note that this is not SPAM. You've sent me an offer, answered to my ads lately or we are members of the same op-in list. To be removed from my private mailing list just hit the reply button and put REMOVE in the subject line From bear at sonic.net Mon Dec 18 08:59:40 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:59:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001217223322.00b02100@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > >Besides, Jim, as a Texan your tradition role in discussions of >natural gas policies is supposed to be to say >"let the bastards freeze in the dark" :-) ITYM "Wal, we can ship ya some natcherl gas, er some awl, but it's a gonna cost ya.... Tha awl bidness has its ups and downs, ya see. " :-) Bear From freematt at coil.com Mon Dec 18 06:54:53 2000 From: freematt at coil.com (Matthew Gaylor) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:54:53 -0500 Subject: Universal Censorware-Bypass Program Message-ID: From ben.samman at f-secure.com Mon Dec 18 01:24:05 2000 From: ben.samman at f-secure.com (Ben Samman) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:24:05 +0200 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns Tim-- Good new sig. Ben. From pf_santa at hotmail.com Mon Dec 18 13:05:35 2000 From: pf_santa at hotmail.com (PFSanta Claus) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:05:35 -0900 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Hi, I came across your addies in a search off ask Jeeves and thought perhaps due to the way your interests run you might be up on this topic. I'm a Sr. Support Analyst for a large vendor and recently was asked by one of my casual internet contacts if there was a way to prevent a "keyboard logging" surveillance program from prevailing on their system and reporting the goings on from their keyboard. In an effort to be helpful, I set about my normal pattern of research and found that there seems to be a ton of info promoting various products, yet there is virtually nothing I could find which offers any realistic or reliable countermeasures that can be taken to prevent someone from logging the output from your keyboard. Even the hackers seem to think it isn't a threat to anyone's privacy. Weird... So anyway, all I'm asking is that should you know where I can find resources that assist me in defeating such software (especially if it's undetected), I would gratefully accept any guidance you could offer. That's all I need, I won't take anymore of your time. Peace, Tom (aka Santa) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From tom at ricardo.de Mon Dec 18 03:25:12 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:25:12 +0100 Subject: BT sues Prodigy over U.S. hyperlink patent References: Message-ID: <3A3DF418.3DA87A86@ricardo.de> "Templeton, Stuart" wrote: > > probably behind the times, didn't see this spark up yet, but the quote below > caught my attention... > How serious would you guys suggest this "threat" to be? any information > regarding other patents that could turn up like this in a > more SERIOUS fashion? two serious possible outcomes: a) BT goes over a large fish after making a few small ones pay, and the large fish pays a couple mio. to a lawyer to find a loophole that invalidates the patent. b) BT strikes patent portfolio exchange deals with the large fish and lets the small fish pay. that's just how the patent system works. and yes, there's possible 20k other patents out there that are just as trivial and evil (subjectively, of course ;) ). From tom at ricardo.de Mon Dec 18 03:37:09 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:37:09 +0100 Subject: FBI Sniff References: <200012152145.QAA32699@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3A3DF6E5.29CCA39E@ricardo.de> John Young wrote: > Is any of this Douglas stuff true? We don't know. at least one of his claims is false: his books are NOT banned in germany. on the contrary, there's even a german translation: http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3806111049/qid%3D977139380/302-3127721-2116047 From tom at ricardo.de Mon Dec 18 03:48:39 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:48:39 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A3DF997.2B94909C@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > Tom Vogt: > > Weird, a couple thousand years of history disagree with you. until > > the very recent past, pretty much everyone was sure that killing > > enemies, unbelievers or other people isn't "evil". probably isn't > > even "murder". > > If you are confused about the difference between war and peace, you must > be seriously confused about a lot of things. the above holds true for both, peace and wartimes. please try again. > > ironically, you seem to agree somewhat that bombing a couple hectars > > of an "evil nation" isn't murder, either... > > Those who claim to that killing people in warfare is no different from > killing people in peace, are more likely to exterminate subjects during > peacetime, than they are likely to refrain from killing enemies in wartime. I can't remember the US declaring war on any of the recent nations they've bombed. care to point me to the relevant documents? > Tom Vogt: > > nice, but old trick of passing judgement on someone in such a form > > that it also invalidates his (possibly different) judgement on you. > > but it's just cheap dialectics, not "truth". > > > > remember that many more non-germans died in WW2 than germans. we > > really shouldn't use body-count as a measure of truth. > > Remembering that both german and non german deaths were caused by germans, > we should use body count as a measure of evil. body count not of those who died, but of those who killed? yeah, that works for WW2. does it work for vietnam? > Tom Vogt: > > who decides what is wrong and right in moral beliefs? > > Common sense. whose common sense? (I'm refraining from the usual reply of "common sense is what tells you that the world is flat") > Tom Vogt: > > your point is? that the percentage of "friendly fire" defines what > > is right and what is wrong? > > Friendly fire is an accident, an error. The murder of commies by commies > and nazis by nazis was planned from the very beginning. so he who murders his brother is by definition evil? with or without a look at his reasons? you didn't answer my two core questions, so I'll present them again in a short and easily digestable form: 1.) those you call "evil" will often see things the other way around. how do you resolve this issue without circular reasoning? (i.e. without saying that their judgement doesn't count because they're "evil") 2.) if "evil" is objective, there ought to be an objective measurement that can be applied to answer the question of a given person being "good" or "evil". name this measurement. From ber329 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 18 05:15:55 2000 From: ber329 at hotmail.com (bern gori) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:15:55 +0100 Subject: OPPORTUNITY Message-ID: <200012181315.OAA29813@isoit213.bbn.hp.com> Hello. *********** TRY IT !!! ONLY RISK IS TO LOOSE $32 **** ($25 for 5 reports and ~ $7 for mailing) $32 = 65DM = 210FFrs = 65000 Lit = GBP27 shipping cost is about $1.5 (EUR -> USA) $1(EUR <->EUR) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am a seller making $70,000+ a year, but I want to show you what I do for fun, which will make me an ADDITIONAL $250,000 THIS YEAR... and it takes only a fraction of the time that my regular selling does... I send out these emails, as many as I can, and people send me cash in the mail for information that I just email back to them. It is all completely legal, and I get to make that walk to the mailbox every day knowing that it is full of $5 bills for me!! Do the math... If you send out 100,000 emails (which you can do for free, the reports will show you how) and only 1 in 1000 people participates, you just made $500...and that was only on the first level!!! At the fifth level, you are at over $500,000!!! And that is ONLY ONE person participating out of 1000 at each level!!! Report #2 will even show you where you can get One MILLION eBay email addresses and all of the software you will need to send emails to them, and HOW!! Realize FAST how much money there is to be made, and how EASY it is to do over and over... Then act. Make this the one email like this you decide to act on. Do you HONESTLY think you wont see your meager, one-time $25 returned to you a hundredfold AT LEAST?? PLUS, look at the value of the informational reports you are getting for your money, and understand that you will be able to sell them over and over forever, even AFTER you have used them for your own monetary gain!!! And then you can run the whole program over and over for free!! If you have been looking for a little fun in your life, wait till you try THIS fun...the kind that puts cash in your mailbox!! Good Luck!!! Anonymous Seller ================================================== DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV : ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! ================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say Bull, please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ======================================================= Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ============ PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ========== (Or Have it E-mailed to you-See Submit Button Below) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following..THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ======== Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.=========== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. === When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. === Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. === IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ================================================================ *** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY =============================================================== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1... $50 + 2... $500 + 3... $5,000 + 4... $50,000 + 5... $500,000 .... Grand Total= $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ================================================================= REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ============================================================= Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ===================== AVAILABLE REPORTS==================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ================================================================= ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' Order Report # 1 from: JP Garigon Giessteinstr. 13/2 72805 Lichtenstein Germany - Deutschland ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report # 2 from : Mike Nichols POBox 270061 Flower Mound, TX 75027 USA ________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' Order Report # 3 from: Jack Zampell 4511 Rockford Ln. Chattanooga, TN 37411 USA ________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report # 4 from: Heidi Bohm 1095 Osceola Ave #103 St Paul, MN 55105 USA ______________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report # 5 from: Randall Williams 401 Stocks Dairy Road Leesburg Georgia 31763 USA ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks,continue sending e-mails until you do. === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ================================================================= FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in anyway. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ......# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! =================== MORE TESTIMONIALS====================== '' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldnt work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ...... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois =============================================================== '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada =============================================================== '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.....11 months passed then it luckily came again... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. =============================================================== '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ============================================================== ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ============================================================== If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ==========================THE END====================== This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, From ber329 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 18 05:15:56 2000 From: ber329 at hotmail.com (bern gori) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:15:56 +0100 Subject: OPPORTUNITY Message-ID: <200012181315.OAA29855@isoit213.bbn.hp.com> Hello. *********** TRY IT !!! ONLY RISK IS TO LOOSE $32 **** ($25 for 5 reports and ~ $7 for mailing) $32 = 65DM = 210FFrs = 65000 Lit = GBP27 shipping cost is about $1.5 (EUR -> USA) $1(EUR <->EUR) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am a seller making $70,000+ a year, but I want to show you what I do for fun, which will make me an ADDITIONAL $250,000 THIS YEAR... and it takes only a fraction of the time that my regular selling does... I send out these emails, as many as I can, and people send me cash in the mail for information that I just email back to them. It is all completely legal, and I get to make that walk to the mailbox every day knowing that it is full of $5 bills for me!! Do the math... If you send out 100,000 emails (which you can do for free, the reports will show you how) and only 1 in 1000 people participates, you just made $500...and that was only on the first level!!! At the fifth level, you are at over $500,000!!! And that is ONLY ONE person participating out of 1000 at each level!!! Report #2 will even show you where you can get One MILLION eBay email addresses and all of the software you will need to send emails to them, and HOW!! Realize FAST how much money there is to be made, and how EASY it is to do over and over... Then act. Make this the one email like this you decide to act on. Do you HONESTLY think you wont see your meager, one-time $25 returned to you a hundredfold AT LEAST?? PLUS, look at the value of the informational reports you are getting for your money, and understand that you will be able to sell them over and over forever, even AFTER you have used them for your own monetary gain!!! And then you can run the whole program over and over for free!! If you have been looking for a little fun in your life, wait till you try THIS fun...the kind that puts cash in your mailbox!! Good Luck!!! Anonymous Seller ================================================== DEAR FRIENDS AND FUTURE MILLIONAIRES: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV : ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! ================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ‘‘BullÂ’Â’, please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: '' Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ======================================================= Here is another testimonial: ''' this program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ============ PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ========== (Or Have it E-mailed to you-See Submit Button Below) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following..THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ======== Order all 5 reports shown on the list below.=========== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. === When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. === Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. === IMPORTANT __ DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.. Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.. Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ================================================================ *** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you lose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY =============================================================== Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1... $50 + 2... $500 + 3... $5,000 + 4... $50,000 + 5... $500,000 .... Grand Total= $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ================================================================= REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ============================================================= Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. ===================== AVAILABLE REPORTS==================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ================================================================= ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 1 : ''The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net'' Order Report # 1 from: JP Garigon Giessteinstr. 13/2 72805 Lichtenstein Germany - Deutschland ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 2 : ''The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net'' Order Report # 2 from : Mike Nichols POBox 270061 Flower Mound, TX 75027 USA ________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3 : ''The Secret to Multilevel marketing on the net'' Order Report # 3 from: Jack Zampell 4511 Rockford Ln. Chattanooga, TN 37411 USA ________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4 : ''How to become a millionaire utilizing MLM & the Net'' Order Report # 4 from: Heidi Bohm 1095 Osceola Ave #103 St Paul, MN 55105 USA ______________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________ REPORT # 5 : ''HOW TO SEND 1 MILLION E-MAILS FOR FREE'' Order Report # 5 from: Randall Williams 401 Stocks Dairy Road Leesburg Georgia 31763 USA ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks,continue sending e-mails until you do. === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ================================================================= FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in anyway. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ......# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! =================== MORE TESTIMONIALS====================== '' My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldnÂ’t work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ...... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois =============================================================== '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada =============================================================== '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.....11 months passed then it luckily came again... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. =============================================================== '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ============================================================== ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ============================================================== If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. ==========================THE END====================== This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, From frissell at panix.com Mon Dec 18 13:00:13 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:00:13 -0500 Subject: New/Improved Taxpatriate's Page Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001218151751.046629b0@popserver.panix.com> The IRS is getting lazy but the Official Taxpatriates Page isn't. The "Service" is late with the 3rd Quarter taxpatriates list but our page continues to improve anyway. Apparently The IRS' International District which has issued the taxpats list ever since it began, has been reorganized out of existence. Its functions have been transferred to the Philadelphia Service Center and the famous Doug Rogers who has signed every list issued so far has been given new responsibilities. We wait with baited breath for the 3rd Quarter list so we can find out who's in charge these days. Meanwhile, we've added some more articles on taxpatriation http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1997/0616/5912016a.html http://www.frissell.com/taxpat/Whatabout.htm and added JFile and MobileDB databases of taxpatriates for those who use Palm devices. (These databases have also been contributed to the Memoware site: http://www.memoware.com/cgi-bin/mwsearch.cgi?Any=taxpatriate.) http://www.frissell.com/taxpat/taxpats.pdb http://www.frissell.com/taxpat/taxpatpb.pdb Question for the taxpatriates who read this list (we know you're out there). Have you filled out IRS form 8854 http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8854.pdf and ratted out your income and assets at the time of expatriation? If your income is more than $110K per year or your net worth is more than $500K, you are assumed to have expatriated to avoid taxes. As always, the Official Taxpatriates Page can be found at: http://www.frissell.com/taxpat/taxpats.html DCF ---- "You don't have to be nice to nation states you meet on the way up if you're not coming back down!" From auto58194 at hushmail.com Mon Dec 18 13:09:21 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:09:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. [Re: This is why HTML email is evil.] Message-ID: <200012182117.NAA03242@user5.hushmail.com> Tim May wrote: > > You seem to fundammentally misunderstand the situation. The reason > the Personnel Commissar is ordering sensitivity training, workshops, > and is requiring that posters of Brittny Spears be removed from > office walls is because government and lawyers have made companies > liable in various ways for "discriminatory" or "sexist" or suchlike > behaviors. I may have killed my point in editing. Laws are the result of people using their property to advance their agenda. When harassment laws were proposed, companies chose not to use their property to fight these laws. Today when they give into these laws rather than fight them, they are again making a decision about how they use their property. Companies tend to value their property more than they value the free expression of their employees. Is this surprising? Is it wrong? Should companies be compelled to value the free expression of their employees higher? I don't like the current situation with zero-tolerance policies and all that any more than you do, but it's not the result of living in an unfree society. It's the result of living in a society with different values than our own. In other words, to get the freedoms we want, we have to take away other freedoms. > You're really missing the point, aren't you? Go back and think about > the issues more deeply. I'll always miss the point of people complaining they don't live in a free society when they use reasoning that indicates they don't really want to live in a free society. In a previous incarnation of this message, which appears to have gone into the darkness, I made a rushed point about free societies either being impossible or being a truth. I'll skip that this time and just ask this: do you mean to be complaining about not living in a free society or are you really complaining about not living in a society with a higher value on personal freedoms? From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Mon Dec 18 14:27:33 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:27:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > > > >Besides, Jim, as a Texan your tradition role in discussions of > >natural gas policies is supposed to be to say > >"let the bastards freeze in the dark" :-) > > ITYM "Wal, we can ship ya some natcherl gas, er some awl, but > it's a gonna cost ya.... Tha awl bidness has its ups and downs, > ya see. " :-) Ray, your Texas drawl sucks. Yankee's start sentences with "Well,...." and there is no Texas drawl on '...el...'. People from Kansas and Oklahoma (definitely not southern) say 'awl'. I don't know anyone who pronounces it 'natcherl', definitely no native Texan. Yankee's say 'it's a gonna', we say 'it's fixin' to'. 'Tha' isn't Texan, 'Thuh' would be. 'bidness' is a (black) yankee term, not southern. And we don't say 'ya see'. You have yankee/mid-west confused with Texas/southern. But me and my native Texas friends got a kick outta it, thanks for the giggles. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From bear at sonic.net Mon Dec 18 18:03:17 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:03:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > >On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >> On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: >> > >> >Besides, Jim, as a Texan your tradition role in discussions of >> >natural gas policies is supposed to be to say >> >"let the bastards freeze in the dark" :-) >> >> ITYM "Wal, we can ship ya some natcherl gas, er some awl, but >> it's a gonna cost ya.... Tha awl bidness has its ups and downs, >> ya see. " :-) > >Ray, your Texas drawl sucks. Yeah, maybe. But it's still true that the city folks get all high and mighty and superior until they need food or power, and then all of a sudden they're willing to play nice with the rednecks and hillbillies, drawls and all. I think it's darned funny myself, and coming from an oil-producing area, I always have. I was thinking of a particular person I used to know when I typed that. It's how he talks. But to be fair, he's from Louisiana. Bear From info at giganetstore.com Mon Dec 18 10:20:15 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:20:15 -0000 Subject: The Best Of ... Natal@giganetstore.com Message-ID: <01ab415201812c0WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em formato HTML, basta clicar aqui. The Best Of ... Natal at giganetstore.com Estas são algumas das prendas que os nossos clientes mais compraram neste Natal. E para si ? Já comprou a sua Prenda ? Não, então porque espera? Você também é especial. E para si é sempre Natal ! Livros - Harry Potter e o Cálice de Fogo ( J K Rowling )- 2.610$00 Música - All that you can`t Leave Behind ( U2 ) - 3.060$00 Filmes DVD - O Gladiador ( Russel Crowe ) - 6.990$00 Hardware - Webcam Vespa Pro ( USB Philips ) - 8.900$00 Hi-Fi, TV e Video - Dav 310 ( Leitor MP3, CD, CDRW ) - 37.900$00 Hi-Fi, TV e Video - Leitor DVD 711 ( Philips ) - 69.900$00 Consolas e Acessórios - Consola Dreamcast ( Incluí jogo Chuchu Rocket )- 38.990$0 0 Software - MP3 Station Plus ( Editor MP3 )- 4.990$00 Jogos para PC - Diablo 2 - 9.990$00 Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5822 bytes Desc: not available URL: From auto58194 at hushmail.com Mon Dec 18 15:26:34 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:26:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] Message-ID: <200012182334.PAA16430@user5.hushmail.com> "Raymond D. Mereniuk" wrote: > Actually if California had been building power plants in recent years > we would not have this short term price issue. If they had built a > power plant they would have committed to a supplier of natural gas > who would have arranged a supply (drill wells) and arranged > delivery (build pipeline capacity). The problem now is no one in > California made commitments so the market did not build supply > and delivery capacity. California consumers are now forced to > purchase their requirements in a commodity market causing the >current distortions. Huh? Let's make this simple. How is California's lack of power plants causing natural gas prices to rise? Plants that don't exist don't use gas and don't contribute to shortages. California's importing power from elsewhere, so why didn't these other generators commit to natural gas suppliers? Hint: transmission losses aren't a recent discovery. Either you're confused or you're trying to use the cold winter as an excuse to create a strawman for your anti-Californian views. Tim, Jim and Bill have already given good responses to the economic side of things, so I won't comment further in that vein. > It would be nice if Californians took responsibility for their lifestyle, > built the power plants in California and dealt with environmental > issues themselves. You have a choice, if you don't want power > plants, don't use power. Or: It would be nice if everybody took responsibility for their lifestyle, took care of their own power needs and dealt with environmental issues themselves. You have a choice, if you don't want higher power bills, don't use power. From mnorton at cavern.uark.edu Mon Dec 18 16:58:53 2000 From: mnorton at cavern.uark.edu (Mac Norton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:58:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <200012182334.PAA16430@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Dec 2000 auto58194 at hushmail.com wrote: > > Huh? Let's make this simple. How is California's lack of power plants > causing natural gas prices to rise? Plants that don't exist don't use gas > and don't contribute to shortages. What the fella said was the lack of power plants indicates a lack of long-term, fixed price gas contracts, which he assumes, without evidence, would be inplace had said power plants been built. it's not an unsafe assumption, btw, but can't be proved. > > California's importing power from elsewhere, so why didn't these other generators > commit to natural gas suppliers? > Perhaps because they don't burn gas at their stations. Duh. > Hint: transmission losses aren't a recent discovery. No shit. That's why line loss is taken into account in prices. So, er, what? > > Either you're confused or you're trying to use the cold winter as an excuse > to create a strawman for your anti-Californian views. > There are other possibilities. I certainly don't see any strawmwn here, anti-Cal or otherwise. > Tim, Jim and Bill have already given good responses to the economic side > of things, so I won't comment further in that vein. > What those guys know about economics you can put into a byte. Get real or read some econ. MacN From jamesd at echeque.com Mon Dec 18 19:47:46 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:47:46 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A3DF997.2B94909C@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Tom Vogt: > > > Weird, a couple thousand years of history disagree with you. > > > until the very recent past, pretty much everyone was sure that > > > killing enemies, unbelievers or other people isn't "evil". > > > probably isn't even "murder". James A. Donald: > > If you are confused about the difference between war and peace, > > you must be seriously confused about a lot of things. Tom Vogt: > the above holds true for both, peace and wartimes. Baloney. That is the "everyone else is doing it" excuse. Not everyone else is doing it. Those that were doing it, were monsters, and decent people had no hesitation in saying so, centuries ago as much as today. See, for example Saint Thomas Aquinas on the persecution of jews. Tom Vogt: > > > remember that many more non-germans died in WW2 than germans. > > > we really shouldn't use body-count as a measure of truth. James A. Donald: > > Remembering that both german and non german deaths were caused by > > germans, we should use body count as a measure of evil. Tom Vogt: > body count not of those who died, but of those who killed? yeah, > that works for WW2. does it work for vietnam? Sure. When the US fled, the killing escalated and spread, rather than diminished, showing that the cause of the war was communist aggression, something that had not been altogether clear before the US was defeated. Tom Vogt: > > > your point is? that the percentage of "friendly fire" defines > > > what is right and what is wrong? James A. Donald: > Friendly fire is an accident, an error. The murder of commies by > commies and nazis by nazis was planned from the very beginning. Tom Vogt: > so he who murders his brother is by definition evil? with or without > a look at his reasons? We know well the reasons why commies murdered commies and nazis murdered nazis. > you didn't answer my two core questions, I have answered them repeatedly, and I will answer them yet again, but I expect you will keep on asking them anyway. > so I'll present them again in a short and easily digestable form: > > 1.) those you call "evil" will often see things the other way > around. how do you resolve this issue without circular reasoning? > (i.e. without saying that their judgement doesn't count because > they're "evil") Evil people are likely to do hurtful things (bad things) to me unless I get them first. Normal people will not do hurtful things to me unless I do bad things to them first. Hence my use of nazis, commies, and murder as illustrations and examples of evil. As I would point to the a particular piece of iron to define all iron, to define the category iron, in the same way I point to murder, nazis, and commies to define all evil, to define the category evil. > 2.) if "evil" is objective, there ought to be an objective > measurement that can be applied to answer the question of a given > person being "good" or "evil". name this measurement. See above. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 8szZeDQTARHFucMutKJJR/1rZ8k8hE1qhaaLa0DW 4c9IgbooyDMdUBDWP+X/wZH4kjYylqNZHDDk06v59 From manualco at cs.com Mon Dec 18 22:09:30 2000 From: manualco at cs.com (manualco at cs.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:09:30 Subject: BAD OR NONEXISTENT CREDIT Message-ID: <200012190505.VAA10521@cyberpass.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 863 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Mon Dec 18 23:23:22 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:23:22 -0800 Subject: keyboard loggers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001218232322.009dbbf0@idiom.com> If you have to worry about people installing keyboard logging programs on your machine without your permission, either - you're using a public shared machine at a coffeeshop or school or Kinko's to do things you think need security, or - you're using your employer's machine, and shouldn't do things that are inappropriate to do at work, - you're using your employer's machine, and need a new employer who trusts his employees instead of feeling compelled to spy on them, - you're using your employer's machine, and your employer has a serious security problem with people trying to crack in at night, - you're sharing your home machine with a teenager who runs all sorts of game programs downloaded off the net or borrowed from friends, viruses and all, - you've got serious security problems of your own - if they can sneak in and install programs like that, they can install anything else they want, copy your hard disk, probably even steal your hard disk, or - the paranoids really are out to get you. For the shared-machine problem, don't use insecure machines to do secure stuff. Use disposable email accounts, American Express one-shot credit card numbers, and if you must log in to something, use one-time passwords (either S/Key or SecureID tokens or some similar mechanism.) There's been some work done on encryption programs that run in hand-held computers, whether Palm Pilot things with displays or JavaRings or smartcards without them. Matt Blaze, Ian Goldberg, and Martin Minow have done presentations on those topics. I'll leave you to figure out employer problems, and there are professionals who can help with paranoia, as long as you get to them before the Feds get to you. One approach for the teenager problem (or the related problem of machines for lab use, especially firewall research) is removable disk drives. You can get disk drive drawers for IDE/Ultra/DMA/etc for about $20, and spare disks are only $100 or so. Keep a clean copy for installing software you trust, password-protected-screensavered to reduce accidents, and give the kid his own disk to play with, plus teach him how to reinstall software from CD-ROM when it gets trashed. It's the computer equivalent of buying a full-sized beater car for your kid to learn to drive in - extra weight, airbags, and an exterior you don't care about dents in. If the kid has his own machine, and you're sharing a network, that's more trouble. You'll have to firewall your machine off from the kid's, or at least mainly run the clean copy disconnected from the net, and make sure the kid keeps current virus protection installed and running. At 12:05 PM 12/18/00 -0900, PFSanta Claus wrote: >Hi, > I came across your addies in a search off ask Jeeves and thought perhaps >due to the way your interests run you might be up on this topic. I'm a Sr. >Support Analyst for a large vendor and recently was asked by one of my >casual internet contacts if there was a way to prevent a "keyboard logging" >surveillance program from prevailing on their system and reporting the >goings on from their keyboard. In an effort to be helpful, I set about my >normal pattern of research and found that there seems to be a ton of info >promoting various products, yet there is virtually nothing I could find >which offers any realistic or reliable countermeasures that can be taken to >prevent someone from logging the output from your keyboard. Even the hackers >seem to think it isn't a threat to anyone's privacy. Weird... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Mon Dec 18 23:53:04 2000 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:53:04 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <200012182334.PAA16430@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3A3EA1ED.8230.A4CDB4F@localhost> auto58194 at hushmail.com wrote > Huh? Let's make this simple. How is California's lack of power plants > causing natural gas prices to rise? Plants that don't exist don't use gas > and don't contribute to shortages. > > California's importing power from elsewhere, so why didn't these other generators > commit to natural gas suppliers? In the energy business it is commonly assumed there is lots of natural gas in Alberta and BC. So much that most exploration companies do not bother looking for it until they has a market. In the business it is often jokingly stated that natural gas will be obsolete before we release it all from the reservoirs. If you decide to build a natural gas powered electrical generation facility to provide full-time capacity you are looking at a lead-time of at least a couple of years. With a lead time of two years the supply would be available. The delivery system may be a problem as in this day and age it can take more than two years to get approval to build pipelines in populated areas. Put your power plant in the boonies and you solve part of the problem. Basically there are two natural gas delivery systems coming out of Canada. The main system starts in northeast British Columbia on the east side of the continental divide, runs through Alberta collecting more capacity and then heads east. There is a branch going to Toronto and Montreal, the main population centres in Canada. There is another branch which heads to the Chicago area. If you check your commodity prices you will note buyers attached to this system pay much lower prices than those offered to California buyers. There is no shortage of supply in this system, you can tell by the prices. California is not directly connected to this supply system and can not benefit from this abundant supply. On this side of the continental divide there is no longer an abundant supply. One of the local gas transmission companies wanted Canadian consumers to pay CAN$500 million to increase supply through increased residential and industrial rates. We the consumers refused as we didn't need the capacity for our own use. The transmission company wanted the consumers to assume their risk with our dollars. The transmission company invested some of their own capital to do part of the connection. If you want to give them CAN$325 million they will finish finish the link between the two systems and there will be a glut of natural gas on this side of the continental divide. They know if they invest the money themselves they will loose their current price premium so they ain't doin it with their money. Commit to some long-term supply contracts at today's prices and it would completed within a year. I live out in the burbs in what was once a rural area. No one ever thought the city would grow this big. Many years ago they built a coal fired power plant less than a couple of miles away. It was down wind from the city and no one cared about the pollution back then... Around about 10 years ago they changed from coal to natural gas fired boilers. This power plant sits there mainly unused. The local tree hugger types whine too much about the pollution. The facility is not small, probably enough capacity for a city of 250K. It is used only at peak times and in emergency situations. When there are low reservior levels (which is part of your problem) it is used more often. In a properly planned electrical system this type of extra capacity is considered essential. These plants were never intended to be used fulltime so they tend to have low natural gas storage capacity and smaller inbound pipelines. In your system you are using facilities such as these for full-time power generation. In your state these plants has a quota of pollution they are allowed to produce on an annual basis. A number of these facilities had reached their annual quota of emissions so they shut down for maintenance. Since they were never intended to be used full-time they require some down time. Within the last two weeks your state government lifted the pollution quotas and pressured the operators to bring these plants back on stream. > Hint: transmission losses aren't a recent discovery. You caught me by surprise on this one. I assume you are talking about electricity as if a gas delivery system has losses you tend to very quickly become aware of it. > Either you're confused or you're trying to use the cold winter as an excuse > to create a strawman for your anti-Californian views. I don't believe my view is anything other than an accurate description of what is plainly stated between the lines. In this part of the world there are very detailed analysis printed in the local media describing the mechanics of what is happening in the energy market. Just from your reaction you can see why this view would not be popular in your neighbourhood. Energy production is big business in western Canada and a lot of people are making big dollars from the consumers in the northwest. The actions of the California voters have made this possible. I just wish I was still in the energy business rolling in dollars rather than whining about paying an extra $1,000 per year for heating. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca "The Physical Layer Experts" http://www.fbn.bc.ca/cable1.html From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 19 00:26:28 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:26:28 -0800 Subject: How do I become a member of Cyberpunks?? In-Reply-To: <7c.f20c5eb.27706821@cs.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001219002628.00acb8e0@idiom.com> At 02:28 AM 12/19/00 EST, Anarchysk8er123 at cs.com wrote: > How do I become a member of Cyberpunks?? Read too much William Gibson, get the jack installed in yer head, or maybe a set of those nice Ono-Sendai eye implants, and cowboy your way onto the net. If, however, you're looking for the cypherpunks mailing list, find the Cyphernomicon on the net, and read it. There are archives at inet-one in Singapore. If you send mail to cypherpunks-request at einstein.ssz.com and ask nicely, the friendly robot will send you mail. Save the email where you'll remember to look it up later, and then if you want 50-100 messages delivered to your doorstep daily, take the blue pill, or was it the red one. (Second edition of Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography is the red one.....) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Tue Dec 19 00:39:58 2000 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:39:58 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217142554.01dbdc20@shell11.ba.best.com> References: <20001216162005.G28790@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <3A3EACEE.10528.A77D84A@localhost> > At 11:24 AM 12/16/2000 -0800, Eric Murray wrote: > > > > Only by running your own mail or news server can you prevent the > > > > ISP from monitoring your email or news reading. Sorry to entering this thread so late but I had to bite on these comments. I have been in and out of the ISP business for the last 5 years. In my last real job I was responsible for a tech support team. Tech support personnel in ISPs are typically an entry level position with only slightly better starting wages. I couldn't get most of the techs to read what I wanted them to read and I would be surprised if any of them did any snooping. You spend most of the time on the phone with 12 O'clock flashers, people who live with every appliance in their house flashing 12:00. A lot of calls are from Outlook Express users who receive a 2 MB graphics file and are pissed off when they can't download it in 30 seconds with their 33.6 kbps modem. Outlook Express doesn't give you any progress indication. They call and want you to read their mail to them over the phone. A few calls like this you just don't ever want to look at anyone's mail any more. News servers don't tend to keep logs, you look at a newsgroup and there are 3000 messages in the group, that would be 3000 lines in a log file. We would turn that one off real fast. Mailservers...?? Ever looked at a "messages" log on a Sendmail server? Even with GREP there ain't no way to get useful information there. The log files are probably on a 5-week rotation so after 5 weeks their gone. Dialup access logs tend to be kept so we can pursue the hackin bastards plus some ISPs use them for billing. Sorry, no love lost for hackers after you have called a few and attempted to talk to them. Everyone is in denial, " I didn't do that". Web access logs are usually kept for a while but without a stats package they are mostly gibberish. I would bet most hosting companies don't keep logs unless the customer pays extra for a stats package. I wouldn't worry about most ISP invading your privacy. Most of them are too busy getting calls from 12:00 O'clock flashers and, my personal favourite, the caller who blamed us for uploading porn onto their computer. Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca History of a Telco, A Fairy Tale http://www.fbn.bc.ca/telcohis.html From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Tue Dec 19 01:52:05 2000 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:52:05 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: References: <3A3CDC53.14112.35AD500@localhost> Message-ID: <3A3EBDD7.8869.AB9ED27@localhost> Tim May wrote > Size of a market is a shifting concept. British Columbia and > Vancouver are certainly large markets. Compared to California markets this is a small market. Two million folks in the metro area and 3 million total in the province (state). > If there were a nuclear power plant in western Canada, much of its > output would likely go to Vancouver. Guess what? No nuke plants in > western Canada. The size of the market makes nuclear power impractical. BC is a net exporter of energy. Lots of electricity, some oil and some natural gas. They have dammed a bunch of waterways. > >tanker. I believe I would rather have nuclear power plant in my > >neighbourhood than a liquidified natural gas facility. > > Perhaps you can lobby your politicians to allow nuclear power > plants to be built in your region, then. Everyone gets excited about the dangers of nuclear power plants. In areas where sour natural gas is produced there is a lot of environmental damage. The original reason for settling Canada was to trap animals, skin them and sell the furs to Europe. Fur trappers didn't care if you dammed the rivers and poisoned the air and ground with hydrogen sulphate. If you work around sour gas you are advised that if your co-worker suddenly collapses you don't attempt to help him as he is probably already dead. You are advised to run upwind as fast as possible. They find cattle raised near sour gas wells and production facilities suffer from a significant increase in birth defects and still borns. There is some evidence appearing that man suffers the same problems as the animals. > >tanker. I believe I would rather have nuclear power plant in my > >neighbourhood than a liquidified natural gas facility. > > Perhaps you can lobby your politicians to allow nuclear power plants > to be built in your region, then. I have lived and worked around gas plants and sour gas production facilities. I have done my hazardous duty. Again, until you witness the environmental damage associated with the energy business you have no idea... > This whole post shows a shaky understanding of economics. You are > bitching and moaning that someone else's bids on power exceed what > you would like to pay. This is my second go around on the energy boom cycle. The only reason you are paying more is because of bad planning or producers not being allowed to build capacity when they wanted. There is no shortage, just some distribution problems. > "I would like to have a Ferrari Testarossa, but there are so many > people around the world willing to pay such outrageous prices that > the prices have simply gotten out of control. If Californian would > take responsibility for their outrageous lifestyles, there would not > be so many Californians buying Ferraris and we people in British > Columbia would have a chance to afford them." Being that BC and Alberta are big energy exporters there are lots of folks, and organizations, making big money on the current problems. I don't believe "around the world" is factual. There is lots of natural gas in the distribution system which is not connected to California. > As for your own energy needs, install propane. This is what I have. > And fill the tank well in advance of when spot market fluctuations > drive the price up. Problem with propane is that it stinks so bad and it puts out a lot of moisture when burnt. Propane is a commodity and it has seen some wild fluctuation in recent years. > Or move to a warmer clime. Living in the far north _does_ carry a price. I lived in the tropics for 8 years. I prefer the temperate rain forest where I currently reside. I like cool and rainy. One of my complaints about Vancouver is that it doesn't rain enough, too many nice sunny days. The problem with hot places is you can only take off so much clothing and you will still be hot. In cold climates you can put on more clothes and eat red meat to keep warm. > Also, bear in mind that a lot of off-peak power is shipped into > Canada from the Bonneville Power Administration. It seems we Yanks > had the foresight to dam the Columbia River back in the 1930s. It's a > reason the Hanford Nuclear Reservation was located in the Tri-Cities > area--cheap and plentiful power--and it's a reason several aluminum > smelters, including a Canadian one, located there. The Bonneville Power Administration (BPA) paid for a series of dams whose main purpose was to hold water for their power generation system. This series of dams were completed in the late 60s and they paid a set fee for the first 30 years of water rights or downstream benefits. After 30 years the downstream benefits were to be returned to BC or BPA had the option to purchase those benefits. The downstream benefits were to be returned to BC as power. Initially BPA promised $250 million for some set term and BC agreed to take the money. At the last minute BPA decided the benefits were not worth the offered price and advised BC to accept less or take the power. BC took the power. BPA made this decision when it appeared electricity was a commodity with an ever decreasing price. Good management team, I bet they got a bonus for this deal. On a more serious note these dams have created significant environmental impact. They turned hundreds of miles of river into lakes part of the year and made a big mess. No one is complaining now that we receive the full whack of downstream benefits. Actually there was not many complaints in 30 years. > And a bunch of chip companies. > Administration, I wouldn't be surprised at all if more net power > doesn't flow across _into_ B.C. than out of it. There are no chip companies manufacturing here. They have design centers in Vancouver as there are enough skilled workers to make the effort worth the expense. Your hunch was wrong, BC and Alberta are big energy exporters even though Alberta is experiencing some shortfall in electrical generating capacity. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca "The Ultimate Enterprise Security Experts" http://www.fbn.bc.ca/sysecurt.html From Anarchysk8er123 at cs.com Mon Dec 18 23:28:33 2000 From: Anarchysk8er123 at cs.com (Anarchysk8er123 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:28:33 EST Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <7c.f20c5eb.27706821@cs.com> How do I become a member of Cyberpunks?? From alan at clueserver.org Tue Dec 19 02:55:24 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:55:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: How do I become a member of Cyberpunks?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001219002628.00acb8e0@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > At 02:28 AM 12/19/00 EST, Anarchysk8er123 at cs.com wrote: > > How do I become a member of Cyberpunks?? > > Read too much William Gibson, get the jack installed in yer head, > or maybe a set of those nice Ono-Sendai eye implants, > and cowboy your way onto the net. There is already too much jacking off on the net... > If, however, you're looking for the cypherpunks mailing list, > find the Cyphernomicon on the net, and read it. > There are archives at inet-one in Singapore. > If you send mail to cypherpunks-request at einstein.ssz.com and ask nicely, > the friendly robot will send you mail. Save the email where > you'll remember to look it up later, and then if you want > 50-100 messages delivered to your doorstep daily, > take the blue pill, or was it the red one. > > (Second edition of Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography > is the red one.....) And the first edition is the blue one. ]:> The true way to join the Cypherpunks is to find a copy of the album by "TimMay and The Lords of Darkness", play it backwards and listen for the steggoed message. ("Leggo my steggo!") [I gotta stop staying up so damn late...] alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. 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Andrew Charles Prize Director www.EasyWinning.com If you have received this email in error, or would no longer like to receive special promotions via email from EasyWinning, then go to http://www.easywinning.com/unsubcontests_ewn.asp?uID=2881405 to unsubscribe. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6979 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ericm at lne.com Tue Dec 19 07:04:46 2000 From: ericm at lne.com (Eric Murray) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:04:46 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <3A3EACEE.10528.A77D84A@localhost>; from Raymond@fbn.bc.ca on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:39:58AM -0800 References: <20001216162005.G28790@slack.lne.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001217142554.01dbdc20@shell11.ba.best.com> <3A3EACEE.10528.A77D84A@localhost> Message-ID: <20001219070446.C9768@slack.lne.com> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:39:58AM -0800, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > > > At 11:24 AM 12/16/2000 -0800, Eric Murray wrote: > > > > > Only by running your own mail or news server can you prevent the > > > > > ISP from monitoring your email or news reading. > > Sorry to entering this thread so late but I had to bite on these > comments. I have been in and out of the ISP business for the last 5 > years. In my last real job I was responsible for a tech support team. [..] > I wouldn't worry about most ISP invading your privacy. Most of them > are too busy getting calls from 12:00 O'clock flashers and, my > personal favourite, the caller who blamed us for uploading porn > onto their computer. You missed the begining of this thread. The threat isn't from the ISP personnel, who like you say are too busy to spy. It's from law enforcement who get access (through subpoenas or simply asking for it) to the logs that the ISP's been keeping. They could then do traffic analysis on your a.a.m reading. -- Eric Murray Consulting Security Architect SecureDesign LLC http://www.securedesignllc.com PGP keyid:E03F65E5 From jya at pipeline.com Tue Dec 19 05:40:19 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:40:19 -0500 Subject: Tim's Motorcycles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200012191344.IAA20539@granger.mail.mindspring.net> At 11:24 AM 12/18/00 +0200, Ben wrote: >> Timothy C. May         tcmay at got.net        Corralitos, California >> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon >> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go >> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns > >Tim-- > >Good new sig. Motorcycles? I don't recall motorcycles here. The recent US international crime assessement lists global motorcycle gangs as a major threat to world peace, along with a couple of dozen new horsemen. The report claims all of these have rapidly adopted high-tech and info tools to advance their criminal agendas, and that there simply must be more global law enforcement cooperation, communications intercepts, and massive funding to combat these, these, Zen Fau Long Aum Shirinkyo whirring-spokemeisters. From scotw at hotmail.com Tue Dec 19 07:03:23 2000 From: scotw at hotmail.com (Scot Scot) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:03:23 -0600 Subject: keyboard loggers. Message-ID: Alright... gotta get my two centz in here. #Yo out to Bill S... always good advice I'm guessing that with santa's problem it is almost impossible to keep people from putting key loggers onto a system if they have physical access to them. HPFS (Easy to beat) NTFS (Easy to beat) NTFS 5 (Easy to beat) UFS (Easy to beat) FAT (hahahahahhaha) It's all risk assessment Santa. If you don't trust your elves ya gotta pull the floppy, Zip, CD-ROM etc... access. Key loggers are easy to code and can be named whatever you call them. You could however write a simple program to look for all the executable files on your systems and the do a sum of the previous days results to see if there are any changes. Intrusion detection is key to picking this stuff up... its a process you engauge in. Not a capability you will be able to attain. Scoty "It's all about the Pentium" -Wierd Al >From: Bill Stewart >To: "PFSanta Claus" , cypherpunks at toad.com >Subject: Re: keyboard loggers. >Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:23:22 -0800 > >If you have to worry about people installing keyboard logging >programs on your machine without your permission, either >- you're using a public shared machine at a coffeeshop or school > or Kinko's to do things you think need security, or >- you're using your employer's machine, and shouldn't do things > that are inappropriate to do at work, >- you're using your employer's machine, and need a new employer > who trusts his employees instead of feeling compelled > to spy on them, >- you're using your employer's machine, and your employer has > a serious security problem with people trying to crack in at night, >- you're sharing your home machine with a teenager who runs > all sorts of game programs downloaded off the net > or borrowed from friends, viruses and all, >- you've got serious security problems of your own - > if they can sneak in and install programs like that, > they can install anything else they want, > copy your hard disk, probably even steal your hard disk, or >- the paranoids really are out to get you. > >For the shared-machine problem, don't use insecure machines >to do secure stuff. Use disposable email accounts, >American Express one-shot credit card numbers, >and if you must log in to something, use one-time passwords >(either S/Key or SecureID tokens or some similar mechanism.) > >There's been some work done on encryption programs that run >in hand-held computers, whether Palm Pilot things with displays >or JavaRings or smartcards without them. Matt Blaze, Ian Goldberg, >and Martin Minow have done presentations on those topics. > >I'll leave you to figure out employer problems, >and there are professionals who can help with paranoia, >as long as you get to them before the Feds get to you. > >One approach for the teenager problem (or the related problem of >machines for lab use, especially firewall research) >is removable disk drives. You can get disk drive drawers for >IDE/Ultra/DMA/etc for about $20, and spare disks are only $100 or so. >Keep a clean copy for installing software you trust, >password-protected-screensavered to reduce accidents, >and give the kid his own disk to play with, >plus teach him how to reinstall software from CD-ROM >when it gets trashed. It's the computer equivalent of >buying a full-sized beater car for your kid to learn to drive in - >extra weight, airbags, and an exterior you don't care about dents in. > >If the kid has his own machine, and you're sharing a network, >that's more trouble. You'll have to firewall your machine >off from the kid's, or at least mainly run the clean copy >disconnected from the net, and make sure the kid keeps >current virus protection installed and running. > > >At 12:05 PM 12/18/00 -0900, PFSanta Claus wrote: > >Hi, > > I came across your addies in a search off ask Jeeves and thought >perhaps > >due to the way your interests run you might be up on this topic. I'm a >Sr. > >Support Analyst for a large vendor and recently was asked by one of my > >casual internet contacts if there was a way to prevent a "keyboard >logging" > >surveillance program from prevailing on their system and reporting the > >goings on from their keyboard. In an effort to be helpful, I set about my > >normal pattern of research and found that there seems to be a ton of info > >promoting various products, yet there is virtually nothing I could find > >which offers any realistic or reliable countermeasures that can be taken >to > >prevent someone from logging the output from your keyboard. Even the >hackers > >seem to think it isn't a threat to anyone's privacy. Weird... > > > Thanks! > Bill >Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com >PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ual3 at mileageplus.com Tue Dec 19 07:17:36 2000 From: ual3 at mileageplus.com (United Airlines) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 9:17:36 -0600 Subject: Get e-mail from United and 1,000 bonus miles Message-ID: <200012191518.HAA19587@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au Mon Dec 18 17:33:26 2000 From: andrew.mcmeikan at mitswa.com.au (McMeikan, Andrew) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:33:26 +0800 Subject: keyboard logging Message-ID: <54A50136B6CAD3118FBD00C00D00DDEF037459@cbt.mitswa.com.au> use on screen keyboards using mouse action or use non-bios routines that remap key codes. If you need this level of security you probably need to look at the whole environment and do some serious thinking. If you use standard keyboards then the scancodes can be intercepted, if you have standard PC's with non-custom OS then almost anything can be sniffed out. (The moot list is in need of any good advice on this, basic discussion already covered) cya, Andrew... > -----Original Message----- > From: PFSanta Claus [SMTP:pf_santa at hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:06 AM > To: cej at idirect.ca > Cc: cypherpunks at toad.com; waste at zor.hut.fi; iufo at world.std.com > Subject: > > Hi, > I came across your addies in a search off ask Jeeves and thought > perhaps > due to the way your interests run you might be up on this topic. I'm a Sr. > > Support Analyst for a large vendor and recently was asked by one of my > casual internet contacts if there was a way to prevent a "keyboard > logging" > surveillance program from prevailing on their system and reporting the > goings on from their keyboard. In an effort to be helpful, I set about my > normal pattern of research and found that there seems to be a ton of info > promoting various products, yet there is virtually nothing I could find > which offers any realistic or reliable countermeasures that can be taken > to > prevent someone from logging the output from your keyboard. Even the > hackers > seem to think it isn't a threat to anyone's privacy. Weird... > So anyway, all I'm asking is that should you know where I can find > resources that assist me in defeating such software (especially if it's > undetected), I would gratefully accept any guidance you could offer. > That's > all I need, I won't take anymore of your time. > Peace, > Tom (aka Santa) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jamesd at echeque.com Tue Dec 19 09:48:59 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:48:59 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A3F9022.48C61A3@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Tom Vogt: > > > > > Weird, a couple thousand years of history disagree with you. > > > > > until the very recent past, pretty much everyone was sure > > > > > that killing enemies, unbelievers or other people isn't > > > > > "evil". probably isn't even "murder". James A. Donald: > > > > If you are confused about the difference between war and > > > > peace, you must be seriously confused about a lot of things. Tom Vogt: > > > the above holds true for both, peace and wartimes. James A. Donald: > > Baloney. That is the "everyone else is doing it" excuse. Tom Vogt: > not at all. it's the "who are you to believe you can pass judgement > on all of human history?" argument. The nearest equivalent in European history to the crimes of the the nazis and commies was the spanish inquisition,and that was a small scale operation: Handcrafted murder rather than mass produced murder. Each victim was individually identified and processed, rather dumped by the truckload. They murdered about 12000, and the world was horrified by their crimes. Tom Vogt: > > > 1.) those you call "evil" will often see things the other way > > > around. how do you resolve this issue without circular > > > reasoning? (i.e. without saying that their judgement doesn't > > > count because they're "evil") James A. Donald: > > Evil people are likely to do hurtful things (bad things) to me > > unless I get them first. Normal people will not do hurtful things > > to me unless I do bad things to them first. Hence my use of > > nazis, commies, and murder as illustrations and examples of evil. > > As I would point to the a particular piece of iron to define all > > iron, to define the category iron, in the same way I point to > > murder, nazis, and commies to define all evil, to define the > > category evil. Tom Vogt: > you forgot intend. otherwise, innocent bystanders who get hit will > always call the "good" guys who missed the target "evil" (according > to your definition), and rightly so. No they do not. Laws of war are universally accepted by except by those who break them. Those who claim to find it terribly shocking that innocents get killed when legitimate military targets are attacked, never seemed to notice when their favorite terror regimes murdered hundreds of thousands of peasants in peacetime. > what about the israel/rest-of-the-near-east problem? both sides call themselves good and the other side evil. This is the classic problem of pointing out the mote in the other's eye while ignoring the beam in one's own eye. Both sides use the murder of children as a deliberate tactic to get their way. The middle eastern Jews are likely to murder any non Jew, as their christian allies in Lebanon so painfully discovered, and perhaps the crew of the USS Liberty discovered also, and the arabs are similarly likely to murder friends and allies. On both sides, murdering scum are in charge with overwhelming popular support. When Clinton was organizing peace talks, he had one arm around a murdering terrorist, and his other arm around another murdering terrorist. This was the basic cause of the lack of success in the peace talks. > both sides have done and received their fair share of killing. both > sides are convinced that the other will do hurtful things to them > unless they get 'em first. is one or both of them evil? Both. As is confirmed by the propensity of both to deliberately murder innocents and allies. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG VnfVmTL/7mDyU4XZLDyD8zHodb0mVKA5dpJX00hW 4JXyerH5M3ax3YbbOf/qwLzGgzhPd4cUFKH+FjVZr From CScoville at thrupoint.net Tue Dec 19 07:35:58 2000 From: CScoville at thrupoint.net (Scoville, Chad) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:35:58 -0500 Subject: Crypto questions Message-ID: <000601c069d1$62ca7290$a91819ac@NDBCap.com> I've been actively reading posts on this list for about two years now, and I'm in he process of actually trying to design/implement a data network where security is of the utmost priority. Where is a good starting point to find out about packages using algorithms which are unbreakable as of yet. All of the traffic will remain domestically within the US. The traffic will be SMTP. It would be illmatic if someone could reccomend a good reading list (current) on the bleeding edge of cryptography. Tks. in advance. CK$ Chad K. Scoville Internetwork Solutions Engineer Thrupoint, Inc. formerly Total Network Solutions 545 Fifth Avenue, 14th Floor New York, NY 10017 v 212.542.5451 p 800.555.9172 cscoville at thrupoint.net www.thrupoint.net From hherrera at dcci.com Tue Dec 19 11:00:39 2000 From: hherrera at dcci.com (hherrera at dcci.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:00:39 Subject: Affordable Offshore Message-ID: <200012191659.IAA08356@cyberpass.net> Do you have a burning desire to change the quality of your existing life? Develop a secondary offshore income of $500 to $5,000 a week or more? You decide!! How would you like to: 1. Have an offshore bank account? 2. 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From announce at lga2.nytimes.com Tue Dec 19 08:00:52 2000 From: announce at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:00:52 -0500 Subject: Find more of what's inside NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012191605.IAA20516@toad.com> Dear Member, Thanks for joining the NYTimes.com community. We hope that you are finding our site to be an excellent source of insightful news coverage, in-depth analysis and the best in arts and entertainment. There are a lot of new and useful features on NYTimes.com that may not be immediately evident on our home page. I'd like to take a moment to introduce some of them to you. -- Choose from a broad selection of exclusive daily e-mail newsletters ranging from breaking news alerts and daily headline summaries to weekly updates on the latest movies and books: http://email.nytimes.com/email/email.jsp?cub -- Search the past two weeks of articles from major news sections, free of charge: http://search.nytimes.com/search/?cub -- Play today's New York Times Crossword Puzzle for free using our special Java-based solver. Take your best shot, then come back the next day for the answers. http://www.nytimes.com/diversions?cub -- Get the latest news, information and entertainment on your mobile phone wherever you are, through our Wireless Application Protocol (WAP) enabled news service. Key in [wap.nytimes.com] on any WAP-enabled mobile phone, or visit this page for more information: http://www.nytimes.com/services/nytmobile?cub -- Send NYTimes.com articles to your friends and colleagues. Look for the new "E-mail This Article" link at the top and bottom of most articles on the site. Thanks again for your interest in NYTimes.com. To comment on any aspect of our site or services, feel free to write to us at comments at nytimes.com. We hope you'll make a point of visiting us today and every day. Sincerely, Rich Meislin, Editor in Chief New York Times Digital ABOUT THIS E-MAIL ---- This is a one-time e-mail. As a member of the BBBOnline Privacy Program and the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy. Please do not reply to this e-mail. From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Dec 19 08:02:50 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:02:50 -0500 Subject: Houston [was: The Cost of California Liberalism] Message-ID: > Ken Brown[SMTP:k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk] wrote: > > When I worked in the Oil business some of my less sensitive English > colleagues sometimes tried to parody Texan accents. They always got it > very wrong - for example saying "Hooston" most Americans would instead > of "Hyooston" as both we English and the Texans do (of course the name > is originally Scottish (a place near Glasgow) and in it's homeland is > "Hooston".) > And in the Big Apple we can tell out-of-towners in a New York second by asking them the name of the street at the southern base of the numbered grid system. It's Houston Street, and every citizen knows it's 'house-ton'. "It doesn't matter where you are; if it's not New York, you're Out Of Town." Peter Trei From jya at pipeline.com Tue Dec 19 08:13:52 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:13:52 -0500 Subject: keyboard loggers. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001218232322.009dbbf0@idiom.com> References: Message-ID: <200012191617.LAA19912@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Somebody wrote in response to Bill Stewart's message: At least under Windows 98 you can "Start", "Programs", "Accessories", "System Tools", "System Information", and list the "System Hooks".  Most keyboard sniffers are installed as "hooks".  If you see a new one, you may have a problem. Here's what a JYA machine shows (sorry if the table wraps): Hook type Hooked by Application DLL path Application path ____________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ Keyboard Wbhook32.dll WEBSCANX.EXE C:\PROGRAM FILES\NETWORK ASSOCIATES\MCAFEE VIRUSSCAN\Wbhook32.dll Same as DLL path CBT Pgphk.dll PGPTRAY.EXE C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\pgphk.dll D:\PGP658\PGPTRAY.EXE Mouse Wbhook32.dll WEBSCANX.EXE C:\PROGRAM FILES\NETWORK ASSOCIATES\MCAFEE VIRUSSCAN\Wbhook32.dll Same as DLL path Surely Network Associates/PGP have no connection to the snoopers, but why scan keyboard and mouse? From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Tue Dec 19 08:16:26 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:16:26 -0500 Subject: Freenet and anarcho-capitalist Message-ID: Bob, this is the opposite problem from posting an entire article in HTML. You've provided no info beyond the subject line as to why I or anyone should look at slashdot. Slashdot puts out 10-12 articles a day; which one should I look at? At the very least, you could have given the URL for a specific article, as it is your uninformative link becomes even more useless as it rapidly ages. It's really not too hard to do the Right Thing; Here's an example from today's /.: ---------start example------------ http://slashdot.org/articles/00/12/19/149227.shtml Judge Says Port Scanning Is Legal Posted by CmdrTaco on Tuesday December 19, @10:09AM from the thousands-of-lines-of-log-files dept. cvbear0 writes: "SecurityFocus has an article explaining a ruling from a U.S. district court ruling in Georgia about port scanning. The judge ruled that that port scanning tools neither "impair the integrity nor availability of the network." Both parties agreed not to appeal the judge's ruling." -----------end example--------------- ...that took me about 15 seconds - 1 click to get to the specific article (so I could easily get the article specific URL) and 2 cut-and-paste actions (one for the URL and one for the teaser text). If you won't show any common courtesy towards your intended audience, don't expect them to read your postings. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage at einstein.ssz.com] > Reply To: Jim Choate > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2000 8:57 AM > To: cypherpunks at einstein.ssz.com > Subject: CDR: Freenet and anarcho-capitalist > > > http://slashdot.org > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Tue Dec 19 03:58:03 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:58:03 +0000 Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism References: Message-ID: <3A3F4D4B.2CFF2545@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> But the Bush family is from Connecticut or somewhere. They *are* Yankees. Bush I never spoke with anything like a Texan voice & Bush II has to try. Bill's parody is a parody of a parody of a Texan accent, not a parody of a Texan accent. When I worked in the Oil business some of my less sensitive English colleagues sometimes tried to parody Texan accents. They always got it very wrong - for example saying "Hooston" most Americans would instead of "Hyooston" as both we English and the Texans do (of course the name is originally Scottish (a place near Glasgow) and in it's homeland is "Hooston".) We find it hard to tell Southern US accents apart from each other and (genuinely) hard to tell Southern white accents from the sort of black voices Tim rips off so charmingly. When I actually went to Houston I found out that a whole load of people I'd thought were black on the 'phone turned out to be white, with various Southern accents, and some people I'd imagined were white were in fact black, but with middle-class northern college-educated voices. Ken Jim Choate wrote: > > On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > > > On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > > > > > >Besides, Jim, as a Texan your tradition role in discussions of > > >natural gas policies is supposed to be to say > > >"let the bastards freeze in the dark" :-) > > > > ITYM "Wal, we can ship ya some natcherl gas, er some awl, but > > it's a gonna cost ya.... Tha awl bidness has its ups and downs, > > ya see. " :-) > > Ray, your Texas drawl sucks. > > Yankee's start sentences with "Well,...." and there is no Texas drawl on > '...el...'. > > People from Kansas and Oklahoma (definitely not southern) say 'awl'. > > I don't know anyone who pronounces it 'natcherl', definitely no native > Texan. > > Yankee's say 'it's a gonna', we say 'it's fixin' to'. > > 'Tha' isn't Texan, 'Thuh' would be. > > 'bidness' is a (black) yankee term, not southern. > > And we don't say 'ya see'. > > You have yankee/mid-west confused with Texas/southern. But me and my > native Texas friends got a kick outta it, thanks for the giggles. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From shirado at m-net.arbornet.org Tue Dec 19 09:58:43 2000 From: shirado at m-net.arbornet.org (Alex Shirado) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:58:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Internet's Zen Pirates Message-ID: Toronto Globe and Mail December 6, 2000 The Internet's Zen Pirates A guru preaching moral cleanliness develops a breed of crime-fighting hackers By Geoffrey York MOSCOW -- They call themselves the Viper Brothers, the Software Underground Empire, and Armageddon in Russia. They borrow their philosophy from martial arts and Zen Buddhism. They study at the feet of a bearded guru known as Arvi the Hacker, or simply the Teacher. They are the teenaged students of Russia's first school of computer hacking. And while their skills and bravado might seem dangerous, they say they are the good guys, defending their clients from an international war of viruses, hack attacks and computer crime. The Civil Hackers' School, operating from a shabby little Moscow apartment, is helping shape the new generation of Russian computer whiz kids who have provoked fear and anxiety in the West. Russian hackers are blamed for a series of spectacular feats in recent years. These include stealing the secret Microsoft source codes; ransacking the Pentagon's computers; hacking into Web sites of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization; posting thousands of credit-card numbers on the Internet; and stealing millions of dollars from Western banks. The country's post-Soviet economic collapse, combined with its rampant software piracy and its prowess in mathematics education, has created a breeding ground for aggressive young hackers. U.S. commentators have described the hackers as "perhaps the most talented in cyberspace." In Moscow, the Hackers' School sees itself at the forefront of a revolution. "A hacker can do something that influences all of mankind," says the school's founder, 27-year-old Ilya Vasilyev, a former software pirate who is better known on the Internet as Arvi the Hacker. "Every country, every company, needs hackers now," the long-haired teacher tells his students. "You have a feeling that you can do anything. You don't have that in any other job." Several hundred have studied at the hacker school since 1996, earning bracelets with ranks similar to judo belts. (The highest honour is a black bracelet, known as "guru level.") The school, preaching an altruistic moral code, says it trains students for legitimate jobs in computer security, defending employers against viruses or hack attacks. "I won't take students when I see they have a criminal tendency," Mr. Vasilyev says. "A hacker must be a wise person, like a samurai or a karate master. You have to use all of your wisdom not to harm people." But the temptations are constant. The first lesson for freshmen students is a stern warning against illegal hacking. "Many people read about hackers in the newspapers and they think how great it is," Mr. Vasilyev tells the teenagers. "But they don't read to the end of the article, where the hacker gets sentenced to jail." The students sit at the guru's feet on the floor of his cramped apartment. When he asks them to name the school's goals, 15-year-old Kirill Boldyrev replies, "To break into things." The teacher quickly corrects him, but later the teenager acknowledges he sees hackers as heroes. "They have achieved a very difficult thing, a very unusual thing, so they are admired by a lot of people. Maybe it proves that we aren't stagnating in Russia, that we are progressing." The latest hacker exploit was the daring raid on Microsoft, in which the secret source codes for the latest Windows program were taken. The raider was traced back to Russia's second-biggest city, St. Petersburg, which has become a hotbed of hacking. Russian hackers first captured the world's imagination in 1994 when a young mathematician, Vladimir Levin, hacked into the computers of Citibank and transferred $12-million (U.S.) to the bank accounts of friends around the world. He conducted the entire operation from a computer in his St. Petersburg apartment. He was eventually arrested and jailed, but others were inspired to similar feats of cybercrime. Ilya Hoffman, a brilliant viola student at the Moscow Conservatory, was arrested in 1998 on charges of stealing $97,000 (U.S.) over the Internet. He served a year in jail. Another group of Russians stole more than $630,000 by hacking into Internet retailers and grabbing credit-card numbers. Banking-fraud specialists have warned that Russian hackers are the greatest single threat to security at European banks. Crime has become institutionalized in Moscow's outdoor markets and street kiosks, where about 90 per cent of the computer software is pirated. The widespread acceptance of piracy has made it easier for hackers to ignore the law. "Piracy is prospering, and nobody is fighting it," said Sergei Pokrovsky, the 25-year-old editor of Khaker, a hacker magazine that has built a circulation of 50,000 in just two years of operation. "Pirate software is for sale everywhere. People get used to the idea that piracy is normal. Computer crimes aren't seen as very serious. The police have so many other problems on their hands. A lost credit card is seen as nothing, compared to murder and all the other crimes in this country." Because of the shortage of high-paying computer jobs in Russia, even skilled specialists can be limited to salaries of just a few hundred dollars a month. Hacking is a tempting alternative. By stealing a password, they can use the Internet for free. And by cracking programs or doing pirate software jobs in the evening, they can boost their incomes considerably. From frissell at panix.com Tue Dec 19 10:08:52 2000 From: frissell at panix.com (Duncan Frissell) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:08:52 -0500 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: References: <00e501c067dd$ae837ce0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001219125012.033bf6b0@popserver.panix.com> At 10:23 PM 12/16/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Is your premise that anarchy doesn't lead to a 'socialist' society? A >society in which the choices of the individual are made en masse? Consider >the congruency of world view a working anarchy requires? Then consider the >disparity of world views between any two people. How do you resolve this >obvious conflict? Congruency of world view is unnecessary if coercion becomes difficult or impossible. If people can move and communicate and trade in spite of the desire of some others to prevent those exchanges, then they exist in a mutual state of anarchy without regard to their mutual opinions. >To get rid of government is to a priori restrict >this world view. Yet anarchy promises us a wider choice of world view, >apparently only so long as it's the approved one. Cult groups will continue to offer their members a wide choice of rules and regs. They just won't be able to coerce non-members. DCF From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 19 13:12:53 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:12:53 -0800 Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism In-Reply-To: <3A3F4D4B.2CFF2545@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <3A3F4D4B.2CFF2545@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 11:58 AM +0000 12/19/00, Ken Brown wrote: >But the Bush family is from Connecticut or somewhere. They *are* >Yankees. Bush I never spoke with anything like a Texan voice & Bush II >has to try. Bill's parody is a parody of a parody of a Texan accent, not >a parody of a Texan accent. > >When I worked in the Oil business some of my less sensitive English >colleagues sometimes tried to parody Texan accents. They always got it >very wrong - for example saying "Hooston" most Americans would instead >of "Hyooston" as both we English and the Texans do (of course the name >is originally Scottish (a place near Glasgow) and in it's homeland is >"Hooston".) > >We find it hard to tell Southern US accents apart from each other and >(genuinely) hard to tell Southern white accents from >the sort of black voices Tim rips off so charmingly. Surely everyone knows that those voices are not my own handiwork? I use the Ebonicizer. Do ya th'o't I'm joking? Just enter yo' text into da bawx at da URL http://joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp an' it will magically be transformed into Ebonics. all ye damn hood ratz.. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From auto58194 at hushmail.com Tue Dec 19 10:15:09 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:15:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] Message-ID: <200012191846.KAA29000@user5.hushmail.com> I wrote: > > California's importing power from elsewhere, so why didn't these other generators > > commit to natural gas suppliers? > Mac Norton wrote: > Perhaps because they don't burn gas at their stations. Duh. My response to Raymond was in reference to natural gas price increases. Again, if they're not burning gas, how are they causing shortages leading to price increases? Who's burning the gas? Where'd it go? I wrote: > > Hint: transmission losses aren't a recent discovery. > Mac Norton wrote: > No shit. That's why line loss is taken into account in prices. > So, er, what? So if line loss is taken into account in prices it should also be taken into account in figuring out how much power to generate and should also be taken into account when figuring out how much natural gas needs to be committed to. It doesn't matter where the plants are. Raymond's pointed out that some gas plants normally idle are now running full-time to meet demand. To me this reads the same as using idle plants instead of building new ones. Perhaps not a bright move in terms of safety, efficiency and reserve capacity, but nothing that should have changed natural gas commitments. "Raymond D. Mereniuk" wrote: > This power plant sits there mainly unused. The local tree hugger > types whine too much about the pollution. The facility is not small, > probably enough capacity for a city of 250K. It is used only at peak > times and in emergency situations. When there are low reservior > levels (which is part of your problem) it is used more often. > > In a properly planned electrical system this type of extra capacity is > considered essential. These plants were never intended to be > used fulltime so they tend to have low natural gas storage capacity > and smaller inbound pipelines. In your system you are using > facilities such as these for full-time power generation. > > In your state these plants has a quota of pollution they are allowed > to produce on an annual basis. A number of these facilities had > reached their annual quota of emissions so they shut down for > maintenance. Since they were never intended to be used full-time > they require some down time. Within the last two weeks your state > government lifted the pollution quotas and pressured the operators > to bring these plants back on stream. OK, but do you deny that natural gas suppliers and pipeline operators are responsible for making the call for sizing their supply and their pipelines? Does California need to step in and do that for them? They sized for the expected usage from these plants and actual usage has ended up higher. Oops. The gas suppliers and operators could have also figured that without more power plants being built, these plants might need to run more (even despite regulations) and taken appropriate actions. Perhaps the suppliers aren't dumb and actually figured that out but ran some numbers that said they'd make more money by allowing a shortage to occur? (And hey, we can make it look like California's fault and get some good press in B.C. while ripping them off too!) In your eastern vs. western pipeline example, you showed a case where some supply problems would have been solved by connecting the two systems but then pointed out that the company didn't do that so they can charge a premium in the western system. Is that a cost of California Liberalism or a cost of Capitalism? > Energy production is big business in western Canada and a lot of > people are making big dollars from the consumers in the northwest. > The actions of the California voters have made this possible. The actions of California voters have helped to make this possible. The cold weather has helped to make this possible. You and I heating our homes has helped to make this possible. Not connecting the eastern and western pipeline networks helped to make this possible. Lots of other things have helped to make this possible, but above all, Capitalism has made this possible. California's not responsible for making commitments to put the magic demand number over the limit to build new pipelines. Is it also God's fault for not committing to a cold winter? I'll let Tim make the causality rant if he feels it necessary. Californians don't want to live near power plants but have a huge electricity demand. Great! I smell opportunity for neighboring states to get lots of tax revenues from plants supplying California electricity. Why haven't they been built? Nevada liberalism? Oregon liberalism? Why not build plants in Mexico? Is Mexico a bastion of liberalism with stringent pollution laws? Why are natural gas suppliers and electric utilities not meeting demand? Are they morons or have they calculated that they make more money by risking and allowing shortages rather than by increasing capacity? This whole thing is no different than OPEC deciding to leave oil in the ground to raise prices except that instead of being honest bastards like OPEC, they're being dishonest bastards by babbling about California Liberalism. If anything it's the cost of not being liberal enough! Damnit, they told us we'd all become rich by investing in all these glorious deregulated energy companies and now look what's happened! We forgot the profit was going to come out of our pockets first. Those bastards told us competition would lower prices! We forgot all our anti-trust lawyers were busy with Microsoft and not making sure the energy industry wasn't acting in collusion. What hath we wrought? > I just wish I was still in the energy business rolling in dollars rather than > whining about paying an extra $1,000 per year for heating. Shame on you. Bad capitalist! Bad capitalist! From dis-list at rebelbase.com Tue Dec 19 15:36:10 2000 From: dis-list at rebelbase.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:36:10 -0800 Subject: Announce: "secret-admirers" mail list(usenet) In-Reply-To: <3A3EACEE.10528.A77D84A@localhost> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217142554.01dbdc20@shell11.ba.best.com> <20001216162005.G28790@slack.lne.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20001219153328.043b99a8@mail.rebelbase.com> > > > > > Only by running your own mail or news server can you prevent the > > > > > ISP from monitoring your email or news reading. > >Sorry to entering this thread so late but I had to bite on these >comments. I have been in and out of the ISP business for the last 5 >years. In my last real job I was responsible for a tech support team. >Tech support personnel in ISPs are typically an entry level position >with only slightly better starting wages. I couldn't get most of the >techs to read what I wanted them to read and I would be surprised if >any of them did any snooping. I fired 2 of my original 8 staff members for browsing the mailbox of users. I Know several people who work in both the Big national ISP and the small mom and pop ISP at a tech level, to a CEO level. I KNOW that, security notwithstanding, email browsing across the server isn't that uncommon of an occurrence. Ian Briggs From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 19 16:25:42 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:25:42 -0800 Subject: Crypto questions In-Reply-To: <000601c069d1$62ca7290$a91819ac@NDBCap.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001219162542.009e4cd0@idiom.com> At 10:35 AM 12/19/00 -0500, Scoville, Chad wrote: >I've been actively reading posts on this list for about two years now, and >I'm in he process of actually trying to design/implement a data network >where security is of the utmost priority. Where is a good starting point to >find out about packages using algorithms which are unbreakable as of yet. >All of the traffic will remain domestically within the US. The traffic will >be SMTP. > >It would be illmatic if someone could reccomend a good reading list >(current) on the bleeding edge of cryptography. You don't want to be on the bleeding edge of cryptography; you want to be on the calm, boring and stuffy edge. The bleeding edge is for academic mathematicians, not for people with high-importance security problems. You might want to be on the bleeding edge of firewalling and implementation - depends on your need for speed, number of locations you're supporting, and price-sensitivity. Unbreakable algorithms are easy, and have been for years. Triple DES or the newly certified Rijndael AES standard are both as strong as you need (if you're paranoid, stick to 3DES; Rijndael is newer, and while it's had just about everybody trying to crack it and survived, and the US NIST (and hence NSA) has certified it, newer isn't better in this business.) RC4 with 128-bit keys is also strong enough, if it's been implemented properly; if applied wrong, it fails badly, so make sure you're using a competent implementation. For public-key cryptosystems, either RSA or the Elliptic-Curve systems are strong enough, given sufficiently long keys, though the definition of "long enough" has grown by a few bits since then. 1024-bit RSA is fine for anything not involving decades of time or large numbers of dead bodies, but 2048 isn't hard either. For implementation, if you don't _really_ know what you're doing, and since you're asking about a good reading list, you don't, if this is for your business, you need to *hire* *somebody* who does know what they're doing, and you probably want them to buy commercial products backed by businesses with some development capital that will fix bugs and maintain stuff, and you need to look at the security of your processes. Because it doesn't matter how unbreakable your algorithms are if some insider has access to the router with the password written on a yellow sticky note, or if somebody can mail you a Microsoft Loves You virus that forwards your email inbox to kgb.com. At first glance, it sounds like your application probably calls for either Cisco routers using their IPSEC features (if your remote endpoints are big enough to use a router), or a Nortel or Cisco IPSEC box at your headquarters location with IPSEC client software running on your PCs or Linux boxes. But you haven't talked about network scale, speeds, sizes, number of locations, etc., so those are just generic guesses. Depending on what you're doing (user population, turnover, employees vs. customers, etc.), you may also want some kind of Public Key Infrastructure, or that may just be a bunch of bogus hype irrelevant to your needs. Another possible approach is PGP-encrypted email - PGP Inc. used to do gateway boxes that could forward and encrypt mail and enforce encryption policies; if they still do this, that may also be an answer. You could also see if SSH has anything to offer. The classic reading list on crypto starts with Bruce Schneier's Applied Cryptography, plus however much of it's 1000+ item bibliography makes sense for you. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From jya at pipeline.com Tue Dec 19 13:27:41 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:27:41 -0500 Subject: Tim's Motorcycles In-Reply-To: References: <200012191344.IAA20539@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200012192131.QAA31724@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Motorcycle gangs as international crime threat Excerpted from: "International Crime Threat Assessment," December 15, 2000 http://cryptome.org/piccs.rep.htm (410K) Mexican traffickers have also come to dominate methamphetamine production and distribution in the United States, which had been controlled by outlaw elements in US motorcycle gangs. *** US Crime Groups Abroad Some US crime groups have established cells and networks in foreign countries, and are engaged in a wide range of criminal activities. In many cases, the US crime groups use their overseas networks to acquire drugs and other illicit contraband or to prey upon US businesses, as they do in the United States. Law enforcement authorities in other countries also report that US crime groups are involved in money laundering, extortion, prostitution, drug trafficking, firearms smuggling, car theft, street crimes, and contract murders. The most notorious US crime groups operating overseas are outlaw elements of motorcycle gangs, according to US law enforcement agencies. Some of the approximately 900 motorcycle gangs that have been identified as having outlaw elements by US law enforcement have worldwide chapters and are expanding into other countries at a significant rate. The increasing overseas presence of US motorcycle gangs, together with their criminal members' tendency to associate with other crime groups to further their criminal ends, are causing increasing concern among law enforcement authorities around the world. Law enforcement authorities in countries where motorcycle gangs have established themselves indicate that the motorcycle gangs are extensively involved in organized crime and have particularly bad reputations for violence, property crimes, prostitution and extortion rackets, and trafficking in drugs and firearms. [The other US crime group abroad is La Cosa Nostra, second to motorcycle gangs.] "The assessment prepared by a US Government interagency working group in support of and pursuant to the President's International Crime Control Strategy. Representatives from the Central Intelligence Agency; Federal Bureau of Investigation; Drug Enforcement Administration; US Customs Service; US Secret Service; Financial Crimes Enforcement Network; National Drug Intelligence Center; the Departments of State, the Treasury, Justice, and Transportation; the Office of National Drug Control Policy; and the National Security Council participated in the drafting the assessment." From steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 19 08:39:34 2000 From: steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk (Steve Mynott) Date: 19 Dec 2000 16:39:34 +0000 Subject: Tim's Motorcycles In-Reply-To: John Young's message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:40:19 -0500" References: <200012191344.IAA20539@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: John Young writes: > The recent US international crime assessement lists global > motorcycle gangs as a major threat to world peace, along with > a couple of dozen new horsemen. The report claims all of > these have rapidly adopted high-tech and info tools to advance > their criminal agendas, and that there simply must be more > global law enforcement cooperation, communications intercepts, > and massive funding to combat these, these, Zen Fau Long > Aum Shirinkyo whirring-spokemeisters. Motorcycle gangs are claimed by the DEA to be major drug traffickers, particularly of synthesised drugs like methamphetamine which they are supposed to have produced since the late 60s. This is presumably why they are listed? -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve at tightrope.demon.co.uk progress (n.): the process through which the internet has evolved from smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart terminals. From carskar at netsolve.net Tue Dec 19 15:16:12 2000 From: carskar at netsolve.net (Carskadden, Rush) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:16:12 -0600 Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism Message-ID: <10D1CDA5E7B0D41190F800D0B74585641C7451@cobra.netsolve.net> That link is not working for me, and anyway, as someone for whom ebonics was a first language, your ebonicizer does not impress. But then, as ebonics don't have to be realistic to be funny, yo I'll cut you some slack, muh-fuh-kuh. > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim May [mailto:tcmay at got.net] > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 3:13 PM > To: cypherpunks at Algebra.COM > Subject: Re: The Cost of California Liberalism > > > > At 11:58 AM +0000 12/19/00, Ken Brown wrote: > >But the Bush family is from Connecticut or somewhere. They *are* > >Yankees. Bush I never spoke with anything like a Texan > voice & Bush II > >has to try. Bill's parody is a parody of a parody of a Texan > accent, not > >a parody of a Texan accent. > > > >When I worked in the Oil business some of my less sensitive English > >colleagues sometimes tried to parody Texan accents. They > always got it > >very wrong - for example saying "Hooston" most Americans > would instead > >of "Hyooston" as both we English and the Texans do (of > course the name > >is originally Scottish (a place near Glasgow) and in it's homeland is > >"Hooston".) > > > >We find it hard to tell Southern US accents apart from each other and > >(genuinely) hard to tell Southern white accents from > >the sort of black voices Tim rips off so charmingly. > > Surely everyone knows that those voices are not my own handiwork? > > I use the Ebonicizer. > > > Do ya th'o't I'm joking? Just enter yo' text into da bawx at da URL > http://joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp an' it will magically be > transformed into Ebonics. all ye damn hood ratz.. > > > --Tim May > -- > Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California > Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon > Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go > Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 3784 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tom at ricardo.de Tue Dec 19 08:43:14 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:43:14 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A3F9022.48C61A3@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > > > > Weird, a couple thousand years of history disagree with you. > > > > until the very recent past, pretty much everyone was sure that > > > > killing enemies, unbelievers or other people isn't "evil". > > > > probably isn't even "murder". > > James A. Donald: > > > If you are confused about the difference between war and peace, > > > you must be seriously confused about a lot of things. > > Tom Vogt: > > the above holds true for both, peace and wartimes. > > Baloney. That is the "everyone else is doing it" excuse. not at all. it's the "who are you to believe you can pass judgement on all of human history?" argument. > > 1.) those you call "evil" will often see things the other way > > around. how do you resolve this issue without circular reasoning? > > (i.e. without saying that their judgement doesn't count because > > they're "evil") > > Evil people are likely to do hurtful things (bad things) to me unless I get > them first. Normal people will not do hurtful things to me unless I do bad > things to them first. Hence my use of nazis, commies, and murder as > illustrations and examples of evil. As I would point to the a particular > piece of iron to define all iron, to define the category iron, in the same > way I point to murder, nazis, and commies to define all evil, to define the > category evil. you forgot intend. otherwise, innocent bystanders who get hit will always call the "good" guys who missed the target "evil" (according to your definition), and rightly so. but even with intend it doesn't work too well. your local police force will gladly introduce you to the concept of doing hurtful things to you without requiring you to do some to them first. all you have to do is, say, speed on the highway and refuse to stop when they ask you to. your definition works, I can't deny that, but only for extreme cases such as the nazi regime. then again, the nazis *were* convinced that the jews were not only doing bad things to them, but had been doing so for hundreds of years (the "jew world conspiracy", zion, etc). I'm afraid the nazis would have agreed to your definition just as well, pointing out the necessity of eliminating the jew conspiracy, or the whole world will suffer greatly. what about the israel/rest-of-the-near-east problem? both sides call themselves good and the other side evil. both sides have done and received their fair share of killing. both sides are convinced that the other will do hurtful things to them unless they get 'em first. is one or both of them evil? your "definition" doesn't answer that question. as I said, it works as a simplification for extreme cases, much like the florida election system works fine unless it's a close call. From manualco at cs.com Tue Dec 19 18:02:09 2000 From: manualco at cs.com (manualco at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:02:09 Subject: SAVE THOUSANDS ON YOUR MORTGAGE LOAN Message-ID: <200012200058.QAA26993@cyberpass.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1239 bytes Desc: not available URL: From budget2beat at yahoo.com Tue Dec 19 18:38:30 2000 From: budget2beat at yahoo.com (budget2beat at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:38:30 Subject: THIS MAY BE YOUR LAST CHANCE FOR SUCCESS Message-ID: <200012200038.eBK0cT628945@ak47.algebra.com> A growing segment of the American population is looking for an opportunity to quit their present job and start a successful business right out of their home. Frustrated with incompetent leadership, red tape, and unreasonable demands; people are looking for a real opportunity to generate an income that more appropriately reflects their level of talent and skill. Chances are, this may describe you. If so, we want to help. If you've tried other opportunities and failed, don't give up now! It's not what you know, but who you know! We've got the connections you need to succeed! Take a look at the greatest opportunity around! 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From feedback at tapdirect.com Tue Dec 19 18:32:36 2000 From: feedback at tapdirect.com (feedback at tapdirect.com) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:32:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Home Improvement for Christmas Sale Message-ID: Home improvement and remodeling eBook now on Sale for just $12.00 until December 31, 2000! Give our popular Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips eBook as a gift to your favorite do-it-yourselfer. Now is the time before Christmas to get your copy for yourself or a friend. What a quick and easy solution for home improvement help in time for Christmas! Remember, the electronic book (eBook) reveals how to save 35% on supplies and appliances, and 50% on hand tools and power tools. Also, how to get maintenance or repair professionals for a lot less money without sacrificing quality, how to keep from getting ripped off and much more. And, you can have it all on your computer for easy reference or send it as a gift for that special someone. Our easy to read text file eBook (352 printable pages) fully covers all these topics: Kitchens, Bathrooms, Color, Plumbing, Wiring, Painting, Remodeling to add Space, Storage, Flooring, Doors & Windows, Fences, and Decks. Each of the twelve sections includes fixup and repair projects with how-to information and step by step instructions. This entire eBook can be on your computer in just a few minutes. Download it for yourself or send it to a friend or relative as a Christmas gift. Please go now to http://www.tapdirect.com/kitchentips_sale.htm for the most current information on remodeling and home improvement help. Click on the SECURE ORDER FORM button to order with confidence on our secure server. You have nothing to lose! Our satisfaction guarantee covers you completely. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays! Tom Skinner, Owner Kitchen Remodeling Secrets & Tips This message is being sent to you in compliance with proposed Federal legislation for commercial e-mail (S.1618 - SECTION 301). This message cannot be considered spam as long as we include sender contact information pursuant to Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmissions to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you. To be removed, send blank email to feedback at tapdirect.com with the word remove in the subject line. From ashwood at msn.com Tue Dec 19 18:44:46 2000 From: ashwood at msn.com (Joseph Ashwood) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:44:46 -0600 Subject: Crypto questions References: <000601c069d1$62ca7290$a91819ac@NDBCap.com> Message-ID: <00c001c06a2e$d648a9a0$b3cd243f@josephas> Honestly, it's pretty easy to take care of everything you need. Since you're using SMTP you obviously know how long the message is so you can use fairly well anything. Also because it's going over SMTP you need to be aware that you should base-64 encode everything, and the other issues. However what you need is simply: a random number generator an implementation of RSA-OAEP a good block cipher with a good chaining method (Rijndael, CBC is great) a signature scheme do the following generate a 128-bit number K D = RSA-OAEP(K) B = data | signature(data) S = D | RijndaelCBC(K, B) send(base-64(S)) Toss in some markers, something along the lines of "---Begin PGP encrypted message---" and it should work wonderfully. The reverse should be obvious, but just to make sure T = receive() S = base-64Decode(T) (D, B)= Parse(S)BasedOnMarking K = RSA-OAEPDecrypt(D) data = RijndaelCBCDecrypt(K, B) You can send anything you want this way. You can also add compression to the data before encryption, and decompress after decryption. It's not bleeding edge, but it's dependable, it's fast, it's secure, and if you're really paranoid about security, move to SHA-256 with RSA-OAEP, and use a 256-bit Rijndael key. You'll also need to make sure you use properly sized RSA keys. If you want something closer to bleeding edge, go with XTR in place of RSA, and well Rijndael is just an all around great cipher. If you want to strive for exotic, use XTR and Serpent. Of course if you want the tried and true use 3DES instead of Rijndael. If you want the most buzzwords for you condition use half-ephemeral ECC like this: do the following generate a random private key generate the public key to go with it, P Compute the shared secret, K B = data | signature(data) S = P | RijndaelCBC(K, B) send(base-64(S)) Decryption is left as an exercise. If you'd like more help there are plenty of people on the cypherpunks list (myself included) that are capable of consulting to determine what parameters you need to use. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scoville, Chad" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 9:35 AM Subject: Crypto questions > I've been actively reading posts on this list for about two years now, and > I'm in he process of actually trying to design/implement a data network > where security is of the utmost priority. Where is a good starting point to > find out about packages using algorithms which are unbreakable as of yet. > All of the traffic will remain domestically within the US. The traffic will > be SMTP. > > It would be illmatic if someone could reccomend a good reading list > (current) on the bleeding edge of cryptography. > > Tks. in advance. > > CK$ > > Chad K. Scoville > Internetwork Solutions Engineer > Thrupoint, Inc. formerly Total Network Solutions > 545 Fifth Avenue, 14th Floor > New York, NY > 10017 > v 212.542.5451 > p 800.555.9172 > cscoville at thrupoint.net > www.thrupoint.net > > From incomeopp4u at compuserve.com Tue Dec 19 22:09:38 2000 From: incomeopp4u at compuserve.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:09:38 -0800 Subject: Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly At Home - Here's How... Message-ID: <200012200618.WAA28248@cyberpass.net> Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly Home Workers Needed Nationwide Hundreds of companies are currently looking for telecommuters. There is no experience needed and you can start right away. This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program. In fact, none of the companies require any special fees to get started. Many offer free training. Start earning money in your spare time. You set the hours, you decide how much you want to make. Email cashflow4u at earthlink.net with "Work At Home" in the subject heading for complete details. Best Wishes Home Workers Directory P.S. Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. From geplastics at mf01.net Tue Dec 19 14:22:34 2000 From: geplastics at mf01.net (geplastics at mf01.net) Date: 19 Dec 2000 22:22:34 GMT Subject: The Leading Global Portal To The Silicones Industry ! Message-ID: <200012191437.GAA22246@cyberpass.net> http://geplastics.emarkethost.net/mk/get/GESILICONESREDIRECT?_ED=TFqhpEbIydyUfTIwGIPAVY "The Leading Global Portal To The Silicones IndustryTM" Being a registered user on GESilicones.com, you already know many of the features and benefits found all over the site. If you have been doing business with GE Silicones prior to the Internet Revolution, you knew how secure transactions occurred. In the past customers would call or fax in orders, as well as inquire about their shipment, order history, check prices and availability of products. All this occurred very traditionally during standard business hours. When http://geplastics.emarkethost.net/mk/get/GESILICONESREDIRECT?_ED=TFqhpEbIydyUfTIwGIPAVY launched its MySilicones http://geplastics.emarkethost.net/mk/get/COC_REDIRECT?_ED=fWsU5ILOW-E6pkF8BlpoTu, the innovations were phenomenal as customers could now perform all the standard transaction tasks, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and once an order was placed you would be able to confirm and update that order with in 6 hours. It was a giant leap forward as we separated from the Silicones pack. "We led the industry as the first Silicones Business in the world to offer complete transactions online. Now we are raising the bar even higher, as we bring our entire Order, Ship , Bill system to our customers fingertips with real time updates available immediately! Its the new standard in customer service." Ellen Hotz Global Transaction Manager, for GE Silicones. Moving forward, GE Silicones.com and the Customer order center, powered by our newest feature, http://geplastics.emarkethost.net/mk/get/QOW_REDIRECT?_ED=kV.IU3Z9E9q9nsK0.bYYfq announces several new upgrades. These improvements will advance the already unprecedented leading silicones business to new heights as http://geplastics.emarkethost.net/mk/get/GESILICONESREDIRECT?_ED=TFqhpEbIydyUfTIwGIPAVY continues to pursue maximum customer satisfaction with instantaneous online transactions. Now, when you access the Customer Order Center Customers are invited to operate "The Silicones Quick Order Wizard" enabling them to Customize Order Forms to meet their business needs. Existing Customers can use the new QuickSearch feature and access their up to the second order status by Purchase Order number and by Invoice number. The ability to place an order in just a few seconds,with just three clicks of the mouse. Confirm their order immediately in the Order, Ship, Bill system as it is instantly released to be manufactured. Immediately print Data Sheets, MSDS, and Certificates of Analysis. Buying Silicones has never been this fast or this easy! To unsubscribe to ALL types of communications, reply with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. -----------Please do not change the next line----------- ABAAEENMABBACPHNABDADAIBIADACPNM- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 20319 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at netbox.com Tue Dec 19 22:23:02 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:23:02 -0800 Subject: Crypto questions In-Reply-To: <000601c069d1$62ca7290$a91819ac@NDBCap.com>; from CScoville@thrupoint.net on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:35:58AM -0500 References: <000601c069d1$62ca7290$a91819ac@NDBCap.com> Message-ID: <20001219222300.A18060@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:35:58AM -0500, Scoville, Chad wrote: > > I've been actively reading posts on this list for about two years now, and > I'm in he process of actually trying to design/implement a data network > where security is of the utmost priority. Where is a good starting point to > find out about packages using algorithms which are unbreakable as of yet. > All of the traffic will remain domestically within the US. The traffic will > be SMTP. Several points come to mind - "Unbreakable" algorithms are mostly a distraction. What's important is the relationship between the cost of breaking them and the value of the data you're protecting. Less familiar algorithms (like the new AES selection) may sound exciting - their relative newness means that there aren't a lot of known attacks or weaknesses, which is good and bad at the same time. It's good because nobody can ambush you in a meeting by waving a copy of a 10-year-old journal article discussing an obscure failure mode for that algorithm/protocol. It's bad because you may install an expensive system and then get ambushed with a journal article (or an exploit) that hasn't even been thought of yet. Still, attackers aren't likely to attack the strong part of your system, they'll attack the weak part - so you can't really say "Well, I've got 4096-bit Blortifast, I'm safe", until you've secured the machines which will run the system, the buildings they're in, and the people who run the machines and the buildings. Even if a slow reference implementation of your chosen algortithm is only vulnerable to brute-force cracks, you can't assume that your implementation as installed is also that secure - there may be implementation failures on the part of developers, installers, administrators, or users which weaken security. I'd rather have a bulletproof DES implementation than an imperfect 3DES implementation - with a known quantity, I can handle risks myself by getting extra protection (like superencryption) or by not sending really sensitive data. Hidden failures in apparently strong implementations trick you into a false sense of security. The other thing to consider is that even if you succeed in installing a perfectly secure pipeline between two systems or locations, your organization (or your client's organization) hasn't necessarily met their goals - you mention that you want to protect SMTP traffic. That's a good goal - but you didn't mention making sure that the sender-side has good security with its clients, or that the receiver-side has good security with its clients .. which means that even if the SMTP boxes are themselves secure, and the network connection between them is secure (and that's a very generous assumption), the installation won't be secure from a user or auditor's perspective if unauthorized people have access to the client connections on either side to monitor or spoof in-bound and out-bound mail traffic (via SMTP, POP, or IMAP). Securing communications with clients - not just between mail servers - is somewhere between hard and impossible, depending on how many people you're thinking of, and the degree of security. Some people have chosen to secure messages, not pipelines between machines, because then their security doesn't depend so much on the integrity of the machines in between - they're still susceptible to denial-of-service or replay attacks, but it's unlikely that the confidentiality or attribution of messages will be breached. Having said all of that grouchy stuff, you probably won't get a lot safer than picking a good IPsec implementation from a big vendor and keeping its patches current - no need to dig into the guts of what protocol(s) you're using. (Beyond that, you're working with political and financial constraints, not primarily technical ones. If this were my problem, I'd use OpenBSD on COTS PC hardware - but that's me.) > It would be illmatic if someone could reccomend a good reading list > (current) on the bleeding edge of cryptography. Have you joined the IACR? You also might find Schneier's _Secrets and Lies_ thought-provoking; I think he's too pessimistic (which makes up for Applied Crypto's excessive optimism) but it is certainly useful, and overdue. _Network Security_ by Kaufman, Perlman, and Speciner is not bleeding- edge but is absolutely worthy of your attention anyway. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From samueljohnson55 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 20 00:16:11 2000 From: samueljohnson55 at hotmail.com (Samuel Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:16:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: This Tiny Ad is Making Me Rich !! 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From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 20 01:41:07 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:41:07 -0800 Subject: crypto questions - encrypted mail standards Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001220014107.007a3d50@idiom.com> A separate discussion over on coderpunks maybe helpful here. >To: Bill Stewart >Cc: Bram Cohen , gnu at toad.com >Subject: Re: encrypted mail standards >Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:34:55 -0800 >From: John Gilmore > >> Bram - you can do encryption at the Mail Transfer Agent layer, >> like encrypting versions of SMTP, or in the mail header/body layer, >> >> I'm not sure where to find the standards for encrypting SMTP, >> but there are some; look around on sendmail.com. > >See RFC 2487, "SMTP Service Extension for Secure SMTP over TLS", which >adds the "STARTTLS" command and HELO extension option to the SMTP >specification. This permits two SMTP servers to negotiate to use TLS >(also known as SSL) encryption before sending email. > >There are ways to run POP or IMAP using TLS/SSL as well, but I don't >have the standards at my fingertips for this. > >> Also, John Gilmore may have funded some >> non-American developer to do an implementation. > >Nope; sendmail.com did an implementation and released it once the >export rules changed. It's in the current free sendmail release. > > John > > > Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From incomeopp4u at compuserve.com Wed Dec 20 02:39:31 2000 From: incomeopp4u at compuserve.com (Income Opportunity) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:39:31 -0800 Subject: Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly At Home - Here's How... Message-ID: <200012201048.CAA15433@cyberpass.net> Earn $235 - $760 Or More Weekly Home Workers Needed Nationwide Hundreds of companies are currently looking for telecommuters. There is no experience needed and you can start right away. This is NOT your average get-rich-quick program. In fact, none of the companies require any special fees to get started. Many offer free training. Start earning money in your spare time. You set the hours, you decide how much you want to make. Email cashflow4u at earthlink.net with "Work At Home" in the subject heading for complete details. Best Wishes Home Workers Directory P.S. Opportunity available only to U.S. Residents over the age of 18. From 183admin at mail.ru Tue Dec 19 19:13:12 2000 From: 183admin at mail.ru (Ivan) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:13:12 +0300 Subject: Þðèäè÷åñêèå àäðåñà ... Message-ID: <200012200312.TAA16509@toad.com> !ÂÃÈÌÀÃÈÅ! - Ãàññûëêà ïðîèçâîäèòñÿ îäèí ðàç â äâå íåäåëè. - !ÂÃÈÌÀÃÈÅ! Óâàæàåìûå Äàìû è Ãîñïîäà! Ãàø ñåðâåð ïðåäëàãàåò Âàì Þðèäè÷åñêèå àäðåñà. Àäðåñà ïðåäíàçíà÷åíû äëÿ ðåãèñòðàöèè ïðåäïðèÿòèé â ãîðîäå Ìîñêâå. Ãàøè ñïèñêè ïîñòîÿííî ïîïîëíÿþòñÿ íó è êîíå÷íî æå óáûâàþ. Äàæå ðàáîòà íà ïðÿìóþ ñ ñîáñòâåííèêàìè íå âñåãäà 100% ãàðàíòèÿ. Âîò ïî÷åìó ìû äàåì ãàðàíòèþ íà àäðåñà êóïëåííûå ó íàñ. Óñëîâíî ãîâîðÿ, ñðîêîì íà 45 äíåé, â ñëó÷àå èñòå÷åíèÿ ýòîãî ñðîêà ìû âñå ðàâíî ðàññìàòðèâàåì âîïðîñ êîìïåíñàöèè ïîòåðü.  ãàðàíòèþ âõîäèò: 1. Âîçâðàò äåíåã. 2. Îáìåí íà äðóãîé àäðåñ. 3. Ãåøåíèå âîïðîñà ïðîõîæäåíèÿ (åñëè åñòü òàêàÿ âîçìîæíîñòü). Àäðåñà, èìåþùèåñÿ â íàëè÷èè: 10 - 123056, ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Ã. Ãðóçèíñêàÿ, ä.60, ñòð.1 - 130 - ñîáñòâåííèê 13 - ã. Ìîñêâà, Ãðèíèøíèêîâ ïåð., ä. 19à - 100 14 - ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. 3-ÿ ßìñêîãî ïîëÿ, ä. 18, ñòð.1 - 100 19 - 105484, ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. 16 Ãàðêîâàÿ, ä. 21, êîðï.1 - ? - ñîáñòâåííèê 20 - 111524, ã. Ìîñêâà, Ãëåêòðîäíàÿ óë., ä. 14, ñòð. 2. - 120 - ñîáñòâåííèê 21 - 109428, ã. Ìîñêâà, 1-é Êàçàíñêèé ïðîñåê, äîì 4à. - ? - ñîáñòâåííèê 21 - ã. Ìîñêâà, Ãÿçàíñêèé ïð-ò., ä. 4, ñòð. 4 - 100 22 - 111024, ã. Ìîñêâà, Ãåðîâñêèé ïðîåçä, ä. 2, ñòð.3 - 100 23 - ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Ñàéêèíà, ä. 9/1 - 100 25 - 115533, ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Âûñîêàÿ, ä. 3 - 140 - ñîáñòâåííèê 25 - 113114, ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Äåðáåíåâñêàÿ, ä. 1/2, ñòð.8 - 110 32 - 119618, ã. Ìîñêâà, 50 ëåò Îêòÿáðÿ, ä. 11- 100 - ñîáñòâåííèê 37 - ã. Ìîñêâà, óë. Çàãîðüåâñêàÿ, ä.10, ñòð.2 - 100 Òàêæå áóäåò, íà äíÿõ 27 è 28 ÃÃÈ.  ñëó÷àå èçìåíåíèÿ íàøåãî òåëåôîíà èëè àäðåñà Âû ìîæåòå çàéòè íà íàøó ñòðàíè÷êó è óçíàòü íóæíóþ äëÿ Âàñ èíôîðìàöèþ. WWW: http://address095.bizlnd.com Ãîðÿ÷àÿ ëèíèÿ: 798-1972 (ñ 11.00 äî 18.00). From cormikh at fatburningfurnace.com Wed Dec 20 03:16:58 2000 From: cormikh at fatburningfurnace.com (cormikh at fatburningfurnace.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:16:58 -0500 Subject: I LOVE YOU AND I DON'T WANT YOU TO DIE!!!! Message-ID: <62ju1j8mlfege34.0owm1n3d@mx12.fatburningfurnace.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1534 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gbroiles at netbox.com Wed Dec 20 07:12:45 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:12:45 -0800 Subject: crypto questions - encrypted mail standards In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001220014107.007a3d50@idiom.com>; from bill.stewart@pobox.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:41:07AM -0800 References: <3.0.5.32.20001220014107.007a3d50@idiom.com> Message-ID: <20001220071244.B18060@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:41:07AM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: > > A separate discussion over on coderpunks maybe helpful here. > > >From: John Gilmore > > > >> Bram - you can do encryption at the Mail Transfer Agent layer, > >> like encrypting versions of SMTP, or in the mail header/body layer, > >> > >> I'm not sure where to find the standards for encrypting SMTP, > >> but there are some; look around on sendmail.com. > > > >See RFC 2487, "SMTP Service Extension for Secure SMTP over TLS", which > >adds the "STARTTLS" command and HELO extension option to the SMTP > >specification. This permits two SMTP servers to negotiate to use TLS > >(also known as SSL) encryption before sending email. Eric Rescorla's new book, "SSL and TLS: Designing and Building Secure Systems" includes two chapters which may be apropos - one which discusses securing SMTP with SSL (including the limitations of that approach), and one which discusses alternative means to reach a similar end, e.g., IPsec or object encryption (where encrypted messages are sent over insecure pipes). It's also generally a very helpful book, and includes a much more detailed discussion of the ephemeral DH modes than does the other contender, "SSL and TLS Essentials: Securing the Web" (also useful) by Stephen Thomas. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From bear at sonic.net Wed Dec 20 07:59:21 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:59:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: The nature of evil In-Reply-To: <3A408FEC.4A48D1C@ricardo.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Tom Vogt wrote: >same). your problem is that it works perfectly well the other way >around: james who says that the nazis are evil is wrong because he is >himself evil, and he is evil because the nazis say so (because if he >says bad things about the nazis, he must be part of the jew world >conspiracy). on a pure logical level, these two statements have >identical truth values. since they collide, the only possible conclusion >is that they're both wrong. That's true, but I do not think it means what you think it means. To start with, james, who is not nearly as famous for his crimes as the nazis are for theirs, can be assumed not to have committed nearly as many atrocities as the nazis. Murders on one side -- six million (est.) Murders on the other side -- unknown, but I'm pretty sure we'd have heard about someone who committed more than a few hundred. The logic as presented flawlessly distinguishes the evil ones in this case. The fact that each side can say the same things about the others is beside the point. I can say that pigs fly, and I can say that birds fly. On a pure logical level, these two statements are identical. Hence the only possible conclusion is that they're both wrong? Uh, no. The only possible conclusion is that it's necessary to observe pigs and birds and *see* which statement, if any, is true. Bear From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Dec 20 09:28:54 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:28:54 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A408FEC.4A48D1C@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001220092303.01dff150@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 11:54 AM 12/20/2000 +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: > your problem is still circular reasoning. the arabs who say that the > US s evil are wrong because they are evil, and they are evil because > you say so (or because your definition says so, which is pretty much > the same). your problem is that it works perfectly well the other > way around: james who says that the nazis are evil is wrong because > he is himself evil, No it does not work the other way around. Normal people killing nazis and commies is not equivalent to nazis and commies killing normal people, for normal people are a threat only to evil people, whereas nazis and commies are a threat to everyone, including their fellow nazis and commies The jews really were not making war on western europe, germany, and the aryan race. The nazis really were making war on western europe and the jews. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG br1/2MCNDvWwcJ2M8Dvq8FyVBvK2oTCMI94Mmvra 46BFa5AqIkINc0XMGGdWY6FY4FRFUEhxZJ10nSHmx From doreahen at hotmail.com Wed Dec 20 10:18:21 2000 From: doreahen at hotmail.com (D. Henderson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:18:21 -0800 Subject: Adv Message-ID: <200012201822.KAA22358@cyberpass.net> WORK AT HOME USING YOUR COMPUTER!!! ______________________________________________________________________ Dear Friend, You can earn $46,000 or more in next the 90 days sending e-mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details (no, there is no "catch")... ______________________________________________________________________ "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL T.V." Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" ______________________________________________________________________*** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $46,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly...100\% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50\% and 65\% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 3,500,000 millionaires in the WORLD, 20\% ( 700,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show that over 100 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump (A MULTI-BILLIONAIRE, ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST MEN IN THE WORLD) made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. This program is currently being utilized in more than 50 different countries across the world. The enclosed INF0RMATION is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Johnathon Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!! In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for INF0RMATION on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT." Initially I sent out 100,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is my time. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making $46,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $46,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 100,000, I received $42,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $46,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Johnathon Rourke A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received INF0RMATION that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 1,600,000 programs. Now I have several offices that make this and several other programs here and over seas. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, INF0RMATION, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA To Learn How This Amazing Program Will Make You Thousands Of Dollars go to: http://members.tripod.com/doreah/id3.htm or reply back and place the word "make money" in the subject area. From Please_Use_ at address_below Tue Dec 19 19:31:01 2000 From: Please_Use_ at address_below (***) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:31:01 +0700 Subject: Get Your Free Sample Today Message-ID: <200012200329.TAA16797@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1685 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmotyka at lsil.com Wed Dec 20 11:34:39 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:34:39 -0800 Subject: Keyboard logging Message-ID: <3A4109CF.642F1C63@lsil.com> >use on screen keyboards using mouse action or use non-bios routines that >remap key codes. > >If you need this level of security you probably need to look at the whole >environment and do some serious thinking. > >If you use standard keyboards then the scancodes can be intercepted, if >you >have standard PC's with non-custom OS then almost anything can be sniffed >out. > >(The moot list is in need of any good advice on this, basic discussion >already covered) > It is possible using external HW to get keycodes and random numbers into a machine and to an application bypassing the entire OS keycode path ( hiding the codes, timing and quantity ) and to generate a simple font engine to allow an app to display characters without going through the OS font engine. In this way you could create a slightly secure app ( a mail client for instance ) on an insecure system like windows. It would still be easily attacked if it were specifically a target but would probably be immune to any general purpose loggers in either the keyboard path ( except on the kyb itself ) or the OS font engine. If you think the OS font engine can be trusted then you can create an app that given a handle feeds the keycodes to any standard application. Obviously your keys and plaintext will be in memory so could be copied by another thread that knew where to look. From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 20 02:54:36 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:54:36 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A408FEC.4A48D1C@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > James A. Donald: > > > Baloney. That is the "everyone else is doing it" excuse. > > Tom Vogt: > > not at all. it's the "who are you to believe you can pass judgement > > on all of human history?" argument. > > The nearest equivalent in European history to the crimes of the the nazis > and commies was the spanish inquisition,and that was a small scale > operation: Handcrafted murder rather than mass produced murder. Each > victim was individually identified and processed, rather dumped by the > truckload. They murdered about 12000, and the world was horrified by their > crimes. I don't deny that the nazi (and communist) MURDERS were without equal. but again, we're not talking about murder, we're talking about evil, with murder being one (possibly the best?) example of murder. there's other evils beside murder. (rape, for an example that's widely considered to be of roughly the same degree). > Tom Vogt: > > you forgot intend. otherwise, innocent bystanders who get hit will > > always call the "good" guys who missed the target "evil" (according > > to your definition), and rightly so. > > No they do not. > > Laws of war are universally accepted by except by those who break > them. Those who claim to find it terribly shocking that innocents get > killed when legitimate military targets are attacked, never seemed to > notice when their favorite terror regimes murdered hundreds of thousands of > peasants in peacetime. you are too fixated on war. I wasn't talking about war. and besides, even in war it's a little sarcastic to tell the family who just lost its mother that "shit happens" and that the "laws of war" which say that shit happens are universally excepted, so rejoice and be happy, it's all for the greater good. innocent bystanders get hit in ALL circumstances. there's a lot of death every year when police forces shoot innocents. there's a lot of "small scale" military action that's not yet quite war (such as most of the recent US activity which is better described with the words "world police" than "war"). if you leave out intend, then you running over the neighbor's kid by 100% accident makes you evil, because you did hurtful things to them without them doing any to you first. > > what about the israel/rest-of-the-near-east problem? both sides call > themselves good and the other side evil. > > This is the classic problem of pointing out the mote in the other's eye > while ignoring the beam in one's own eye. yepp, we agree completely that they're all insane. the difference is: > > both sides have done and received their fair share of killing. both > > sides are convinced that the other will do hurtful things to them > > unless they get 'em first. is one or both of them evil? > > Both. As is confirmed by the propensity of both to deliberately murder > innocents and allies. ...that I don't label them "evil", and by doing so - according to your definition - declare a right for myself to take 'em out. your problem is still circular reasoning. the arabs who say that the US is evil are wrong because they are evil, and they are evil because you say so (or because your definition says so, which is pretty much the same). your problem is that it works perfectly well the other way around: james who says that the nazis are evil is wrong because he is himself evil, and he is evil because the nazis say so (because if he says bad things about the nazis, he must be part of the jew world conspiracy). on a pure logical level, these two statements have identical truth values. since they collide, the only possible conclusion is that they're both wrong. From sunder at sunder.net Wed Dec 20 09:06:17 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:06:17 -0500 Subject: The Evil Nature of Carnivores Message-ID: <3A40E709.34CD5E1D@sunder.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/15591.html "Privacy questions remain As for the chief privacy concern, that Carnivore can easily be misused by overzealous Feds examining more data than their court orders permit, the IITRI report offers little in the way of reassurance. Basically, we have to trust the Feds not to abuse it." ... "In other words, the Bureau's geeks are going to provide the primary fail-safe against abuse, motivated by their natural civic piety and concerns that the collection of excess information would jeopardise a prosecution." ... "Carnivore operators are anonymous to the system," the report says. "All users are logged in as 'administrator' and no audit trail of actions is maintained." -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 20 12:08:41 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:08:41 -0800 Subject: Anyone financially ruined by nasdaq? Message-ID: At 12:17 PM -0600 12/20/00, Igor Chudov wrote: >Just curious mostly... whether any cypherpunks got financially ruined, >which I define as losing at least 66% of net asset value. A naive definition. "Ruined" has connotations which have nothing to do with percentage losses. Does a Michael Saylor of MicroStrategy face "ruin" because his stock is worth $500 M instead of $10 B? How about the guy who has come to Cypherpunks meetings whose stock holdings at one point were $749 million, but whose holdings are now about $25 million? (These are far, far greater losses than the "66%" threshold, and yet these people are not "ruined.") Now if one is heavily margined, and a stock drop triggers margin calls, resulting in liquidation of all positions, negative net worth, etc., then perhaps "ruin" is a good word. And why do you think Cypherpunks, who generally pay lip service to privacy issues, would reveal their financial situation to you, or to the list? --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From ichudov at Algebra.COM Wed Dec 20 10:17:15 2000 From: ichudov at Algebra.COM (Igor Chudov) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:17:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anyone financially ruined by nasdaq? Message-ID: <200012201817.MAA05227@manifold.algebra.com> Just curious mostly... whether any cypherpunks got financially ruined, which I define as losing at least 66% of net asset value. - Igor. From sunder at sunder.net Wed Dec 20 10:13:57 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:13:57 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: You're Not Driving Alone Anymore] Message-ID: <3A40F6E5.959DF1F6@sunder.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: You're Not Driving Alone Anymore Date: 20 Dec 2000 17:42:50 -0000 From: "Privacy Concerns" To: List Member Privacy Concerns - http://www.angelfire.com/biz/privacyconcerns/index.html =========================== ListBot Sponsor ========================== Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb ====================================================================== 'Big Brother' Could Soon Ride Along in Back Seat A New York highway agency is tracking cars that have electronic tollbooth tags for the latest on travel speeds and traffic jams. In the Washington region, transportation officials want to monitor drivers talking on cell phones as they drive the Capital Beltway as a way of measuring congestion. And an Alabama-based company has developed equipment that "sniffs" passing cars to identify which radio stations motorists have chosen. These "intelligent transportation systems," as they've been named, may help solve traffic problems and be a boon to marketers, but they also raise fear of a new threat to privacy: the idea that drivers could soon be leaving electronic footsteps whenever they leave home. "We could end up with an utterly pervasive monitoring of travelers' movements," warned Phil Agre, a professor of information studies at the University of California at Los Angeles. While the public has begun to confront the hazards posed by unfettered access to information about individuals' medical profiles and Internet use, privacy advocates say there is still little recognition of the newest frontier: travel and location information. "We are moving toward a surveillance society. Soon, government and private industry, often working in concert, will have the capability to monitor our every movement," said Barry Steinhardt, associate director of the American Civil Liberties Union. "While the technology is growing at light speed, the law that governs how the data can be used is developing at the speed of tortoises." At a time when traffic is outpacing efforts to expand highways, new technologies promise a once unimagined ability to manage rush hour, respond instantly to crashes and eliminate backups at tollbooths. They also offer police new tools to catch scofflaws such as red-light runners and locate witnesses, and they provide businesses with immensely profitable ways to reach prospective customers. Electronic toll programs, such as E-ZPass in the Northeast and the Dulles Toll Road's Smart Tag, are often linked to individuals' credit card accounts and are compiling ever more data about when and where specific drivers are traveling. Transit "smart cards" collect similar information about riders. Cameras are increasingly being used to snap photos of cars that run red lights, evade paying tolls and speed. Closed-circuit television cameras for monitoring highway traffic continue to proliferate and, as their resolution improves, could be combined with an evolving technology that automatically matches individual occupants' faces to their driver's license pictures. Automobile makers are introducing on-board navigation systems that allow vehicles to be tracked, and technology is evolving for monitoring the location of cell phones. Engineers predict that cars will soon be manufactured with embedded transmitters that allow them to be tracked. The growing number of high-tech systems for tracking vehicles and archiving information about their travel patterns "is unwittingly bringing us closer than ever to the Orwellian vision of the ever-present Big Brother," wrote analysts Bruce Abernethy and Andrew Kolcz in a recent cover story for Traffic Technology International. "It's an issue of great concern," said Larry Leibowitz, chief executive of Inductive Signature Technologies, who will be chairing a panel on privacy this month sponsored by the Intelligent Transportation Society of America. "It gives the government the ability to tell where you're sitting at dinner." He said people should be concerned about whether their records would be subpoenaed in divorce and other lawsuits, and about whether this information would be exploited by overzealous police. A 1996 survey by Priscilla M. Regan, of George Mason University, found that Americans overwhelmingly preferred that high-tech transportation systems collect only anonymous information, such as overall traffic counts. They cautiously accepted the collection of some personally identifiable information, such as license plate numbers, but objected to such measures as videotaping inside their cars. More than two-thirds were worried about who would see the information. "If they start giving the information away for advertising or selling it,that bothers me," Chuck Stievenart, 39, of Fredericksburg, Va., said recently. "We get enough junk already. Now I'll probably be on someone else's list for junk." Said Kimberly Hayek, 29, of Arlington: "As a single woman, I have to worry. I have been stalked before. I figure I don't have any privacy. I don't like it." The agencies and companies behind these high-tech systems say they use a range of safeguards, including letting travelers choose whether to participate. In San Antonio, for example, 53 automated readers arrayed along city streets follow the progress of 60,000 cars with transponders. All the motorists are volunteers. Both officials of the Dulles Toll Road and the agencies that offer E-ZPass used on highways, bridges and tunnels in six states from Massachusetts to West Virginia  say travelers can choose not to buy the tag and instead pay cash at tollbooths. Some systems try to limit the amount of personally identifiable information they collect. For instance, Transcom, a traffic management organization, has set up automated roadside readers in the New York area to track cars with E-ZPass tags. But tag numbers are scrambled so they cannot be traced to their owners. Likewise, a spokesman for Mobiltrak, the Alabama company that developed the radio "sniffer" system, said its purpose is to take a random sample of passing cars and supply that general information to advertisers. He said the equipment does not determine specifically which vehicle is tuned into which station. But in low-traffic areas, it could be easier to identify individual cars. A third safeguard used by some systems is the practice of collecting data about large groups of vehicles rather than specific cars. Maryland and Virginia officials developing the program to track cell phone use have said, for instance, they will simply follow the energy pattern generated by thousands of phones. They stressed that they will not be able to monitor phone calls or identify specific callers. Some initiatives do not store the information at all. Transcom officials,for instance, collect E-ZPass readings to remain abreast of highway congestion but do not keep them. But other transportation agencies do store personal information, especially those that bill travelers for using electronic payment such as E-ZPass, Smart Tag and Chicago's I-Pass, as well as Metro's smart card. These agencies assure their customers that the data are not provided or sold to businesses and only released under subpoena or court order except in emergencies. Police have turned to E-ZPass records several dozen times. In the most celebrated case, investigators probing the kidnapping of New Jersey millionaire Nelson Gross, a former state Republican chairman, used E-ZPass information in 1997 to track his BMW across the George Washington Bridge. His car was found in Manhattan, and his battered body was soon discovered nearby. Agencies and companies developing these high-tech systems have repeatedly guaranteed that measures for easing traffic will not be merged with those for policing, such as red-light cameras and photo enforcement of speedlimits. They fear motorists will reject programs such as electronic toll systems and traffic cameras if they believe these will be used to issue tickets. Indeed, the deployment of red-light cameras, for instance, has met with decidedly mixed reviews, including in Virginia. Gov. James S. Gilmore III(R) cited privacy concerns in vetoing a bill that would have expanded their use beyond Arlington and Fairfax counties. The trepidation is not universal. "It's not like they're getting your DNA or your medical records. You're in your car, and you're in public," said Chris Wingo, 28, of Northwest Washington. Others want a say over how the information is used. "There's so many unknowns with this new burst of the information age," said Leslie Honing, 35, of Arlington. "I feel like I need some control over that." Privacy advocates insist that Congress set some legal parameters. Regan, of GMU, said laws alone are not enough. Limits on collecting and archiving individual information must be built into the systems themselves: "Once you've collected the information, you're continually trying to keep it under wraps, and there's constant pressure to let it out." *************************************************** Like to contribute an article or comment about this one? E-mail PvtConcern at aol.com *************************************************** Privacy Concerns is a free public service of D. A. H. Investigative Consultants, a Cincinnati based private investigation firm. E-mail: DAHPI at aol.com or toll free, 888-249-2404. Visit our site at, www.dahpi.com ______________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe, write to PrivacyConcerns-unsubscribe at listbot.com From sunder at sunder.net Wed Dec 20 10:22:41 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:22:41 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: "The End of SSL and SSH?"] Message-ID: <3A40F8F1.2C8F1E22@sunder.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: "The End of SSL and SSH?" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:47:56 -0500 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Reply-To: "Perry E. Metzger" To: BUGTRAQ at SECURITYFOCUS.COM References: <20001218101802.J26453 at naughty.monkey.org><877l4w5lzq.fsf at snark.piermont.com><005901c069ea$3f73eec0$ca00030a at seifried.org> "Kurt Seifried" writes: > It is also incredibly difficult for users to ascertain whether the > key is legit or not. Generally, if a key is already in use, it is very likely legitimate. If a key comes up as having changed, it is probably not legitimate. This does leave the question of how do you get keys in the first place. In most organizations, however, systems administration is capable of maintaining such things reasonably well. We could perhaps make that problem a bit better with mechanisms such as on-line key lookup (using a sort of public key version of what kerberos provides for private key protocols), but PKI qua PKI won't improve the situation, and in practice you can (somewhat cumbersomely) get 90% of the benefits right now simply by being systematic about key management. > Most users will happily accept SSL certs that > have expired, point to the wrong site or are self signed (all of > which could be a man in the middle attack or a lazy admin). And yet, SSL certs are based on the X.509 PKI architecture. You claim a PKI will fix things, but obviously it hasn't in this instance. > I used to religously sign email's with PGP until I realized that > no-one probably checked, how did I know this? I started modifying > the email after signing so that it wouldn't verify, no-one ever > complained. I'm hardly surprised. The tools to check are hard to use and the need is rarely obvious. > SSH and SSL are in my opinion poor implementations of security > protocols, they also lack a lot of things such as > repudiation/etc. To believe they are the best we can do makes me > very sad. I suspect in 5 years we'll talk about ssh/ssl like we talk > about telnet right now. I doubt it. SSH and SSL are fine protocols, but are dependent on key management mechanisms. What you are noting is that key management is a hard problem. Well, so it is -- but that doesn't mean that if we change the way we do key management that SSH and SSL would go away. The protocols themselves are fine. In general, PKI is probably not the answer. Among other things, the fact that it requires revocation infrastructure in the first place gives one pause. CRLs do not work in practice. Perry From rmoffrm at china.com Wed Dec 20 14:09:46 2000 From: rmoffrm at china.com (rmoffrm at china.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:09:46 -0800 Subject: Hi, Low price inkjet cartridges Message-ID: <200012210311.TAA22312@beoracle.> from the last look at our site we think that this new inkjet price list will save you even more money. We currently have the follow specials on new inkjet compatible cartridges for Epson, Canon and LOTS of others ... >>>Remove at bottom<<< From sgriffin at innovaquartz.com Wed Dec 20 14:54:22 2000 From: sgriffin at innovaquartz.com (Stephen Griffin) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:54:22 -0700 Subject: RTFM-709 Message-ID: <000401c06ad7$cbe6fe40$1500000a@ceo> From lc123 at quik.com Wed Dec 20 19:29:34 2000 From: lc123 at quik.com (lc123) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:29:34 -0800 Subject: Question????? Message-ID: <000801c06afe$40badf40$4595d5d1@stephenwar> I recently downloaded potato for remailers including Mixmaster among others. I set up all my directories, have read approx all 50 pages of the how-to & help pages, and I still can't figure out how this program "works" let alone how to "use" it. I can't figure out where to compose the text body, where to save it to, what to call it, how to send it, etc etc etc etc....... Is there a place that offers instructions for the "instructions"??? It appears that all the text support is geared to those who really don't need it. Any help would greatly be appreciated. lc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 936 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lc123 at quik.com Wed Dec 20 19:30:24 2000 From: lc123 at quik.com (lc123) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:30:24 -0800 Subject: Question?????? Message-ID: <000801c06afe$5c6479e0$4595d5d1@stephenwar> I recently downloaded potato for remailers including Mixmaster among others. I set up all my directories, have read approx all 50 pages of the how-to & help pages, and I still can't figure out how this program "works" let alone how to "use" it. I can't figure out where to compose the text body, where to save it to, what to call it, how to send it, etc etc etc etc....... Is there a place that offers instructions for the "instructions"??? It appears that all the text support is geared to those who really don't need it. Any help would greatly be appreciated. lc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 936 bytes Desc: not available URL: From girishkashyap at hotmail.com Wed Dec 20 20:15:50 2000 From: girishkashyap at hotmail.com (Girish mr) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:15:50 Subject: Congratulations you've won* Message-ID: Sorrry I could not get the application. The page did not open at all !!! >From: 5429 at msn.com >Reply-To: cypherpunks at ssz.com >To: >Subject: Congratulations you've won* >Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:02:41 -0600 > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 3701 URL: From bill.stewart at pobox.com Thu Dec 21 01:01:38 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:01:38 -0800 Subject: Tapping cellphones for National Security Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001221010138.00a87100@idiom.com> Total Telecom is a free (registration-probably-required) news-clipping service covering telecom issues. This lovely article is about the FBI's current hypocritical pretenses of protecting "national security" and "privacy" by increasing their wiretapping abilities, using laws that were written to prevent hostile foreign domination of (ok, and competition with US firms for) critical national infrastructure. (Mind you, I think the laws are bogus, but the FBI is increasing the bogon density around them considerably.) http://www.totaltele.com/view.asp?ArticleID=35057&pub=tt&categoryid=0 U.S. works out security issues with VoiceStream & DT By Jeremy Pelofsky, Reuters 20 December 2000 U.S. law enforcement authorities are working to address national security concerns about acquisitions of VoiceStream Wireless Corp. and Powertel Inc. by Deutsche Telekom AG , which is partially owned by the German government. The Federal Bureau of Investigation and the companies filed a joint petition made available on Tuesday asking the Federal Communications Commission, which has to determine whether the combinations are in the public interest, to hold off ruling until the parties reach an agreement. VoiceStream , based in Bellevue, Wash., agreed to be acquired by the German telecommunications giant earlier this year in a $34 billion deal. VoiceStream also agreed to acquire Powertel for about $6 billion in August. Law enforcement agencies "have concerns that the merger could, absent an appropriate agreement, impair the ability of authorized governmental agencies in the U.S. to satisfy their obligations to preserve the national security, enforce the laws and protect the public," according to the petition. Germany's 44 percent stake in DT, which the government has pledged to divest, has raised concerns among some in the U.S. Congress about the impact the German government backing could have on competition and U.S. national security. The agencies are seeking assurances of the ability to conduct lawfully-authorized electronic surveillance of domestic calls and those that begin or end in the United States, the petition said, a copy of which was filed with the FCC. The FBI and U.S. Justice Department also said they are seeking to prevent as well as detect foreign-based or other illegal surveillance that could risk U.S. security and the privacy of the nation's telecommunications system. "The parties are currently and in good faith working diligently working toward such an agreement," the filing said. A VoiceStream spokeswoman declined to comment on the petition. The company in the past said it expected to have to address concerns raised by U.S. law enforcement authorities but did not anticipate any problems reaching an agreement. The merged company would represent a "substantial U.S. wireless service provider" offering near nationwide personal communications service (PCS) coverage as well as in Europe using the global system for mobile communications standard (GSM), according to the petition. Sen. Ernest Hollings, a South Carolina Democrat, has urged the FCC to block the VoiceStream-DT deal because he says U.S. law prohibits a telecommunications company that is more than 25 percent owned by a foreign government from acquiring U.S. firms. ~~~~~~~~~` Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From alfax1us at yahoo.com Wed Dec 20 15:18:46 2000 From: alfax1us at yahoo.com (Alex Fax) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:18:46 +0200 Subject: The very good proposal Message-ID: <001001c06adb$35426660$01010a0a@hot1> <--- Это не Ñпам, вы обращалиÑÑŒ ко мне за информацией ранее ---> Ð¥Ð¾Ñ€Ð¾ÑˆÐ°Ñ Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ð¾ÑÑ‚ÑŒ EOTB начинает раздавать Ñвободные $10 (абÑолютно беÑплатно) за ÑобÑтвенную региÑтрацию Ð¿Ð»ÑŽÑ $3 за каждого реферала! ÐšÐ¾Ð¼Ð¿Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ Ñвно идет в гору - за 180 дней они выплачивают 375% от депозита (минимальный депозит $25 e-gold). платÑÑ‚ регулÑрно, внимательно ознакомьтеÑÑŒ Ñ Ñтой компанией. Мой линк (YouriyM): http://www.eye-of-the-beholder.net/cgi-bin/r.cgi?YouriyM Деньги вноÑите Ñ Ð’Ð°ÑˆÐµÐ³Ð¾ аккаунта в e-gold, региÑÑ‚Ñ€Ð°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ Ð² e-gold: https://www.e-gold.com/newacct/newaccount.asp?cid=191365 Пополнить ваш e-gold аккаунт можно воÑпользовавшиÑÑŒ Ñтими ÑÑылками: http://www.golddirectory.com/e-gold.htm http://www.freedomhound.com/servlet/echannel?Request=Render&ID=458805&Data=1 http://www.bigbooster.com/business_opportunities/funding.html Удачи! P.S. ПроÑьба, не делайте фальшивых региÑтраций - Ñто проÑлеживаетÑÑ, да и вообще не Ñтоит губить Ñту компанию -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2228 bytes Desc: not available URL: From support at donventures.com.au Wed Dec 20 18:01:49 2000 From: support at donventures.com.au (support at donventures.com.au) Date: 21 Dec 2000 02:01:49 -0000 Subject: Application Approved Message-ID: <20001221020149.8805.qmail@mrdepot.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome Aboard, We have to processed your application. Warning! Do Not Share your username/password with anyone.... it is for the Members Area Only and is monitored by the software and it will delete your access permission if it is abused! We are Striving to create financial Well Being in this area to make EE-BizVentures one of the best memberships available.... DO NOT ABUSE those resources by sharing with those that haven't joined OUR Membership.... EE-BizVentures Admin From support at donventures.com.au Wed Dec 20 18:01:49 2000 From: support at donventures.com.au (Members Area) Date: 21 Dec 2000 02:01:49 -0000 Subject: Membership Processed Message-ID: <20001221020149.8808.qmail@mrdepot.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome Aboard, We have to processed your application. Warning! Do Not Share your username/password with anyone.... it is for the Members Area Only and is monitored by the software and it will delete your access permission if it is abused! We are Striving to create financial Well Being in this area to make EE-BizVentures one of the best memberships available.... DO NOT ABUSE those resources by sharing with those that haven't joined OUR Membership.... EE-BizVentures Admin From placaron at yahoo.com Thu Dec 21 03:08:33 2000 From: placaron at yahoo.com (paul adjutor lacaron) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:08:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: PUK CODE Message-ID: <20001221110833.12543.qmail@web4702.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Sir, Mabuhay! Greetings from Philippines! I'm one avid readers in your website. Finally,I'm curious upon knowing about the PUK CODE of the SIM CARD. Do you have a knowledge how to UNLOCK THE PUK CODE of the SIM CARD if your SIM CARD asks enter PUK CODE??? And if you really don't know the PUK CODE because you forgot it or you lost it. Sir,is there an a HARDWARE or a SOFTWARE to help to UNLOCK the PUK CODE of the SIM CARD??? In a way, thanks for your kind consideration. I'm hoping you can do a favor regarding my request. GOD SPEED AND MORE POWER TO YOU!!! Sincerely Yours, Paul Lacron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From Jim_Drewniak at pictel.com Thu Dec 21 06:14:13 2000 From: Jim_Drewniak at pictel.com (Jim_Drewniak at pictel.com) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:14:13 -0500 Subject: Netscape versions Message-ID: Do you know where I could get a list of released versions of the Netscape browser and the versions of the components within ? Regards, Jim Drewniak From mmotyka at lsil.com Thu Dec 21 09:19:19 2000 From: mmotyka at lsil.com (mmotyka at lsil.com) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:19:19 -0800 Subject: CPRM - Cryptome Message-ID: <3A423B97.9B8F55BE@lsil.com> Found this on Cryptome. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/15620.html I kinda prefer more passive storage devices that do exactly what they're told to do. Anyone know of sources for technical details? The dvd/flash CPRM spec is available here ( hardcopy only ). Anyone got an on-line version? http://www.dvdcca.org/4centity/tech/cprm/ I suppose it'll be easier to get when it hits the ATA spec. From ichudov at algebra.com Thu Dec 21 07:29:49 2000 From: ichudov at algebra.com (Igor Chudov) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:29:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: encryption helps catch a cannibal Message-ID: <200012211529.JAA21998@manifold.algebra.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ao/20001220/cr/suspected_cannibal_charged_in_boy_s_death_1.html ........ Charged with murder Now, after spending a year behind bars on unrelated charges, Bar-Jonah has been charged with murder in the death of 8-year-old Zachary Ramsay, who vanished while walking to school in 1996. The boy's body has never been found, Light said. But an FBI encryption expert, who stumbled across a coded message among Bar-Jonah's papers earlier this year, found what authorities now believe was a kind of confession of cannibalism, Light said. According to court documents, the carefully encoded messages contained graphic phrases, including "Lunch is Served on the Patio with Roasted Child," "Roasted Kid," and "Little Boy Stew." In other writings, the 44-year-old Bar-Jonah, formerly known as David Brown, exalted the virtues of his favorite meal, "gay blade," Light said, a chilling statement that has led authorities to suspect that Zachary may not have been the first of Bar-Jonah's victims to meet a violent end -- or to have been consumed by his killer. "This could just be the tip of the iceberg," Light said. .... - Igor. From keyser-soze at hushmail.com Thu Dec 21 10:36:54 2000 From: keyser-soze at hushmail.com (keyser-soze at hushmail.com) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:36:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: An "A" to "Z" G U N R E F R E S H E R C O U R S E Message-ID: <200012211837.KAA12150@user5.hushmail.com> An "A" to "Z" G U N R E F R E S H E R C O U R S E a. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject. b. A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone. c. Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface. d. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control. e. If guns are outlawed, can we use swords? f. If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words. g. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms. h. If you don't know your rights, you don't have any. i. Those who trade liberty for security have neither. j. The United States Constitution (c)1791. All Rights Reserved. k. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand. l. The Second Amendment is in place in case they ignore the others. m. 64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday. n. Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians. o. Know guns, Know peace and safety. No guns, no peace nor safety. p. You don't shoot to kill; You shoot to stay alive. q. 911 - government sponsored Dial a Prayer. r. Assault is a behavior, not a device. s. Criminals love gun control - it makes their jobs safer. t. If Guns cause Crime, then Matches cause Arson. u. Only a government that is afraid of it's citizens tries to control them. v. You have only the rights you are willing to fight for. w. Enforce the "gun control laws" in place, don't make more. x. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves. y. The American Revolution would never have happened with Gun Control. z. "....a government by the people, for the people....." PLEASE PASS THIS 'REFRESHER' TO -10- FREE CITIZENS. From jonathan at screaming.org Thu Dec 21 10:29:48 2000 From: jonathan at screaming.org (jonathan at screaming.org) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:29:48 -0700 Subject: Crypto questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:25:42 PST." <3.0.5.32.20001219162542.009e4cd0@idiom.com> Message-ID: <200012211829.LAA25168@montana.ultimate.screaming.org> > You don't want to be on the bleeding edge of cryptography; > you want to be on the calm, boring and stuffy edge. [snip] I'd absolutely agree with everything Bill said, but would add the following: Based on your question, what you're asking about is how to secure SMTP traffic. This doesn't really even equate to needing a current crypto reading list. Rather, what you need (in addition to hiring a professional) is a good understanding of the fundamentals of information security, of which cryptography is only one small part. (Bill hinted at this but I wanted to make sure it was very explicit.) > The classic reading list on crypto starts with Bruce Schneier's > Applied Cryptography, plus however much of it's 1000+ item > bibliography makes sense for you. Still true today. However, for someone trying to gain an understanding of information security (risk assessment, threat analysis, countermeasures, etc.), his most recent book is probably more suitable (and equally indispensable). Anyone who doesn't *thoroughly* understand the principles outlined in _Secrets_and_Lies_ is *not* a security professional. P.S. Get off the toad node. /jonathan From mafield at the.net.nz Wed Dec 20 15:33:32 2000 From: mafield at the.net.nz (Mike Field) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:33:32 +1300 Subject: A weak defense against keyboard logging... Message-ID: <3A4141CC.18B551B6@the.net.nz> After reading your email on cryptome.org.... A couple of weak defences against keyboard logging of passwords. Both are useful to allow you to keep your password hidden from a keyboard sniffer or a 'patched' telnet program. 'One key' password entry. ---------------------- The program displays the letters of the alphabet and slowly cycles which letter the cursor is under... You push the spacebar to stop the cursor, and then if you don't push the spacebar again within two seconds it accepts it as part of the password. All a keyboard logger sees is a few space presses. This could be implemented at the remote end of a telnet session (well, a ssh session...) If the order of letters or they cursor moves was randomised the keypress timing would contain no information about the password. This gets round the employer problem unless the employer is watching your screen. The password feedback is visual. Mouse password entry -------------------- You could use your mouse to hunt and peck the desired letters on a keyboard. Once a letter is chosen the cursor should jump to a random location on the display to foil 'mouse sniffing' Cheers Mike Field mafield at the.net.nz From kfallon at ci.lawrence.ks.us Thu Dec 21 11:38:39 2000 From: kfallon at ci.lawrence.ks.us (Kelly Fallon) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:38:39 -0600 Subject: PUK CODE Message-ID: > GOD SPEED AND MORE POWER TO YOU!!! GOD SPEED AND MORE POWER TO YOU TOO MAN! You might try providing the manufacturer or reseller of this SIM CARD with MONEY. This might have the desired result of UNLOCKING the PUK CODE. From pjcjr at us.ibm.com Thu Dec 21 11:28:06 2000 From: pjcjr at us.ibm.com (Peter Capelli) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:28:06 -0500 Subject: An "A" to "Z" G U N R E F R E S H E R C O U R S E Message-ID: I followed your 'argument' until "w", "enforce the existing gun laws, don't make new ones" So apparently the currently unconstitutional laws are okay with you? -p "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 keyser-soze at hushmail.com@cyberpass.net on 12/21/2000 01:36:54 PM Please respond to keyser-soze at hushmail.com Sent by: owner-cypherpunks at cyberpass.net From mgrieb at grieb.de Thu Dec 21 05:51:33 2000 From: mgrieb at grieb.de (Mario Grieb) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:51:33 +0100 Subject: vmware 2 Beta (with support for OS/2 as a guest OS) Message-ID: Hallo Joe Cypherpunk, I have read in http://www.shmoo.com/mail(cypherpunks/mar00/msg/00133shtml a Mail from VMware Team to you. Can you mail me the Beta of VMWare 2 with support for OS/2 as a guest OS? I can't find it on www.vmware.com. Thanks Mario ---------------------------------------------------- Mario Grieb Informationstechnik GRIEB GmbH / http://www.grieb.de EMail: mario.grieb at grieb.de Tel : 06054 / 911911 Fax : 06054 / 6334 63633 Birstein, Langgasse 31 ---------------------------------------------------- From tom at ricardo.de Thu Dec 21 06:16:00 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:16:00 +0100 Subject: The nature of evil References: Message-ID: <3A4210A0.13883DC2@ricardo.de> Ray Dillinger wrote: > >same). your problem is that it works perfectly well the other way > >around: james who says that the nazis are evil is wrong because he is > >himself evil, and he is evil because the nazis say so (because if he > >says bad things about the nazis, he must be part of the jew world > >conspiracy). on a pure logical level, these two statements have > >identical truth values. since they collide, the only possible conclusion > >is that they're both wrong. > > That's true, but I do not think it means what you think it means. > > To start with, james, who is not nearly as famous for his crimes as the > nazis are for theirs, can be assumed not to have committed nearly as > many atrocities as the nazis. Murders on one side -- six million > (est.) Murders on the other side -- unknown, but I'm pretty sure we'd > have heard about someone who committed more than a few hundred. The > logic as presented flawlessly distinguishes the evil ones in this case. you are ignoring that "the nazis" is a far larger group than james is. also, you're only arguing body count. the nazis were not arguing that the jews were KILLING the "aryan race", at least not in the immediate murder sense. of course the comparison is flawed. to make it more equal, one would have to compare two groups, say the jews and the nazis. both thought of the other as the ultimate evil. the nazis went to kill the jews, justifying their deeds with the fear that the jews would otherwise be doing evil to them. according to james' definition, they (the nazis) were actually the GOOD guys! that's the point. you can use the "evil people are those who harm others, good people are those who fight evil people" definition to justify ANYTHING. now I definitely don't say the nazis are good (my grandfather died in a nazi prison). I just say that even though I would agree calling them "evil", that is still a subjective category, and I don't demand that the rest of the universe agree with me. > The fact that each side can say the same things about the others is > beside the point. I can say that pigs fly, and I can say that birds > fly. On a pure logical level, these two statements are identical. > Hence the only possible conclusion is that they're both wrong? Uh, > no. The only possible conclusion is that it's necessary to observe > pigs and birds and *see* which statement, if any, is true. the difference is that your "I say" are comments about actual, observable events in the outside world. james' "I say" relate to non-observable phenomena, where a "verification through observation" approach isn't in the range of options. From tom at ricardo.de Thu Dec 21 06:20:54 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:20:54 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001220092303.01dff150@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A4211C6.CEA70DD@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > > your problem is still circular reasoning. the arabs who say that the > > US s evil are wrong because they are evil, and they are evil because > > you say so (or because your definition says so, which is pretty much > > the same). your problem is that it works perfectly well the other > > way around: james who says that the nazis are evil is wrong because > > he is himself evil, > > No it does not work the other way around. > > Normal people killing nazis and commies is not equivalent to nazis and > commies killing normal people, for normal people are a threat only to evil > people, whereas nazis and commies are a threat to everyone, including their > fellow nazis and commies james, this is EXACTLY what I'm getting at. your line works perfectly, provided that the fact that the nazis are either evil or wrong is already established beforehand. see: ...for nazis are a threat only to evil people, while jews are a threat to everyone, including their own race. could almost be straight from Mein Kampf. (duh, do I have to add a disclaimer here that I don't mean this, but simply use it as an example of how these fuckers might argue/have argued?) > The jews really were not making war on western europe, germany, and the > aryan race. The nazis really were making war on western europe and the jews. I agree completely. I just don't claim that my reality tunnel is valid for everyone else. From tom at ricardo.de Thu Dec 21 06:27:34 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:27:34 +0100 Subject: [Fwd: Re: "The End of SSL and SSH?"] References: <3A40F8F1.2C8F1E22@sunder.net> Message-ID: <3A421356.84FB82F2@ricardo.de> sunder wrote: > "Kurt Seifried" writes: > > It is also incredibly difficult for users to ascertain whether the > > key is legit or not. > > Generally, if a key is already in use, it is very likely > legitimate. If a key comes up as having changed, it is probably not > legitimate. > > This does leave the question of how do you get keys in the first > place. In most organizations, however, systems administration is > capable of maintaining such things reasonably well. We could perhaps > make that problem a bit better with mechanisms such as on-line > key lookup (using a sort of public key version of what kerberos > provides for private key protocols), but PKI qua PKI won't improve the > situation, and in practice you can (somewhat cumbersomely) get 90% of > the benefits right now simply by being systematic about key management. what you SHOULD do (for ssh) is: generate keys on a stand-alone machine that's known to be secure. put them on floppy/cd/smartcard/whatever and distribute them around the servers by actually walking up to them (i.e. no network). set SSH to paranoid settings (e.g. automatically rejecting unknown keys, etc.). done. it's a bunch of work, but you only have to do it once. of course, intruders, malicious insiders, etc can still exchange the keys. but that's not an encryption problem and is true for every other piece of software on those machines (if you had an intruder, you've gotta toast and setup up anew the machine anyways). > > Most users will happily accept SSL certs that > > have expired, point to the wrong site or are self signed (all of > > which could be a man in the middle attack or a lazy admin). > > And yet, SSL certs are based on the X.509 PKI architecture. You claim > a PKI will fix things, but obviously it hasn't in this instance. and obviously, there's simply no software or infrastructure fix for user stupidity. even if you take the choice out of the user's hands, someone will simply write a software that enables it again and land a bestseller (or best-downloader). > > I used to religously sign email's with PGP until I realized that > > no-one probably checked, how did I know this? I started modifying > > the email after signing so that it wouldn't verify, no-one ever > > complained. > > I'm hardly surprised. The tools to check are hard to use and the need > is rarely obvious. I disagree. many e-mail clients automatically verify, provided that the key is on the keyring. it's just another key-management problem. From artigh82012 at coltelesales.com Thu Dec 21 17:08:20 2000 From: artigh82012 at coltelesales.com (artigh82012 at coltelesales.com) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:08:20 Subject: Need Now! Product, software, book reviewers. Keep all titles. Message-ID: <683.341812.869664@coltelesales.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 9403 bytes Desc: not available URL: From vos at telenor.cz Thu Dec 21 12:24:12 2000 From: vos at telenor.cz (Vitaly Osipov) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:24:12 +0100 Subject: Fw: The Internet's Zen Pirates Message-ID: <00db01c06b8c$7289c980$8cc92f86@int1.telenor.cz> > oh my god :) > > one more example of how the Western media writes about Russia and > Russians... I knew this "Arvi the Hacker" a bit when he tried to earn some > media attention at 1999. Sorry to disappoint the author of the article, but > that guy is no hacker at all. He likes to be a teens leader - so he has a > very eclectic philosophy - Zen, martial arts etc. At least a year ago there > were no talks about real hacking - he stressed that he wanted to teach real > programmers, and all hacking was to be old good MIT stile. The problem is > that this approach is not very popular - so his courses are called "hacker > school" and here comes the general blahblah about Yahoo outages by the media > etc. They also supported the "Free Kevin" movement... etc. I can assure you > that no of the types who steals card numbers from CDnow were studying at his > "school"... Also the "Hacker" magazine mentioned there is nothing more than > very funny popular thing from which you may learn nothing harmful to you or > anybody else... > > So there is NO hacker schools in Russia, and things happen exactly as in US > or everywhere else > > W. > > P.S. maybe it looks like rant, but the thing that offended me most was the > mention of Zen... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Shirado" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 6:58 PM > Subject: CDR: The Internet's Zen Pirates > > > > > > Toronto Globe and Mail > > December 6, 2000 > > > > The Internet's Zen Pirates > > > > A guru preaching moral cleanliness develops a breed of crime-fighting > > hackers > > > > By Geoffrey York > > > > MOSCOW -- They call themselves the Viper Brothers, the Software > Underground > > Empire, and Armageddon in Russia. > > > > They borrow their philosophy from martial arts and Zen Buddhism. They > study > > at the feet of a bearded guru known as Arvi the Hacker, or simply the > > Teacher. > > > > They are the teenaged students of Russia's first school of computer > hacking. > > And while their skills and bravado might seem dangerous, they say they are > > the good guys, defending their clients from an international war of > viruses, > > hack attacks and computer crime. > > > > The Civil Hackers' School, operating from a shabby little Moscow > apartment, > > is helping shape the new generation of Russian computer whiz kids who have > > provoked fear and anxiety in the West. > > > > Russian hackers are blamed for a series of spectacular feats in recent > > years. These include stealing the secret Microsoft source codes; > ransacking > > the Pentagon's computers; hacking into Web sites of the North Atlantic > > Treaty Organization; posting thousands of credit-card numbers on the > > Internet; and stealing millions of dollars from Western banks. The > country's > > post-Soviet economic collapse, combined with its rampant software piracy > and > > its prowess in mathematics education, has created a breeding ground for > > aggressive young hackers. U.S. commentators have described the hackers as > > "perhaps the most talented in cyberspace." > > > > In Moscow, the Hackers' School sees itself at the forefront of a > revolution. > > > > > > "A hacker can do something that influences all of mankind," says the > > school's founder, 27-year-old Ilya Vasilyev, a former software pirate who > is > > better known on the Internet as Arvi the Hacker. > > > > "Every country, every company, needs hackers now," the long-haired teacher > > tells his students. "You have a feeling that you can do anything. You > don't > > have that in any other job." > > > > Several hundred have studied at the hacker school since 1996, earning > > bracelets with ranks similar to judo belts. (The highest honour is a black > > bracelet, known as "guru level.") > > > > The school, preaching an altruistic moral code, says it trains students > for > > legitimate jobs in computer security, defending employers against viruses > or > > hack attacks. > > > > "I won't take students when I see they have a criminal tendency," Mr. > > Vasilyev says. "A hacker must be a wise person, like a samurai or a karate > > master. You have to use all of your wisdom not to harm people." > > > > But the temptations are constant. The first lesson for freshmen students > is > > a stern warning against illegal hacking. > > > > "Many people read about hackers in the newspapers and they think how great > > it is," Mr. Vasilyev tells the teenagers. "But they don't read to the end > of > > the article, where the hacker gets sentenced to jail." > > > > The students sit at the guru's feet on the floor of his cramped apartment. > > When he asks them to name the school's goals, 15-year-old Kirill Boldyrev > > replies, "To break into things." > > > > The teacher quickly corrects him, but later the teenager acknowledges he > > sees hackers as heroes. "They have achieved a very difficult thing, a very > > unusual thing, so they are admired by a lot of people. Maybe it proves > that > > we aren't stagnating in Russia, that we are progressing." > > > > The latest hacker exploit was the daring raid on Microsoft, in which the > > secret source codes for the latest Windows program were taken. The raider > > was traced back to Russia's second-biggest city, St. Petersburg, which has > > become a hotbed of hacking. > > > > Russian hackers first captured the world's imagination in 1994 when a > young > > mathematician, Vladimir Levin, hacked into the computers of Citibank and > > transferred $12-million (U.S.) to the bank accounts of friends around the > > world. He conducted the entire operation from a computer in his St. > > Petersburg apartment. > > > > He was eventually arrested and jailed, but others were inspired to similar > > feats of cybercrime. Ilya Hoffman, a brilliant viola student at the Moscow > > Conservatory, was arrested in 1998 on charges of stealing $97,000 (U.S.) > > over the Internet. He served a year in jail. > > > > Another group of Russians stole more than $630,000 by hacking into > Internet > > retailers and grabbing credit-card numbers. Banking-fraud specialists have > > warned that Russian hackers are the greatest single threat to security at > > European banks. > > > > Crime has become institutionalized in Moscow's outdoor markets and street > > kiosks, where about 90 per cent of the computer software is pirated. The > > widespread acceptance of piracy has made it easier for hackers to ignore > the > > law. > > > > "Piracy is prospering, and nobody is fighting it," said Sergei Pokrovsky, > > the 25-year-old editor of Khaker, a hacker magazine that has built a > > circulation of 50,000 in just two years of operation. > > > > "Pirate software is for sale everywhere. People get used to the idea that > > piracy is normal. Computer crimes aren't seen as very serious. The police > > have so many other problems on their hands. A lost credit card is seen as > > nothing, compared to murder and all the other crimes in this country." > > > > Because of the shortage of high-paying computer jobs in Russia, even > skilled > > specialists can be limited to salaries of just a few hundred dollars a > > month. > > > > Hacking is a tempting alternative. By stealing a password, they can use > the > > Internet for free. And by cracking programs or doing pirate software jobs > in > > the evening, they can boost their incomes considerably. > > > From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 21 22:19:03 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:19:03 -0800 Subject: One thing about Bell's case... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >It seems to me that charging Bell for 'stalking' in relation to the >collection of public documents violates his 1st Amendment rights with >respect to 'press'. It's probably the showing up on the door step that got him in trouble. Or at least that gave the government the excuse they needed to put him on trial. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 21 22:42:17 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:42:17 -0800 Subject: Tim's Motorcycles In-Reply-To: <200012191344.IAA20539@granger.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200012191344.IAA20539@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: >At 11:24 AM 12/18/00 +0200, Ben wrote: >>> Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California >>> Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon >>> Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go >>> Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns >> >>Tim-- >> >>Good new sig. > >Motorcycles? I don't recall motorcycles here. >The recent US international crime assessement lists global >motorcycle gangs as a major threat to world peace, along with >a couple of dozen new horsemen. The report claims all of >these have rapidly adopted high-tech and info tools to advance >their criminal agendas, and that there simply must be more >global law enforcement cooperation, communications intercepts, >and massive funding to combat these, these, Zen Fau Long >Aum Shirinkyo whirring-spokemeisters. The thought of Mr. May on his R1100RS (Right? 1998?) riding with the Bandidios is... Amusing. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From wolf at priori.net Thu Dec 21 22:56:46 2000 From: wolf at priori.net (Meyer Wolfsheim) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:56:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Crypto questions In-Reply-To: <000601c069d1$62ca7290$a91819ac@NDBCap.com> Message-ID: <200012220531.AAA13999@Prometheus.schaefer.nu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1544 bytes Desc: not available URL: From petro at bounty.org Thu Dec 21 22:57:35 2000 From: petro at bounty.org (petro) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:57:35 -0800 Subject: china-taiwan and limits of state action In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Recently a friend asked me what my opinion was as a "computer guy" about >the China-Taiwan "cyber warfare." At first it seemed that there wasn't >much to say, except maybe to point out that this seems to be a ways away >from Schwartau's info-war. > >One thing has started to bother me a bit, though. How does mainland China >distinguish an attack by the Taiwanese state from an attack launched by >private Taiwainese citizens? Do they even *care*, since they have such >poor relations with Taiwan anyway? Given the nature of China's society and government, I don't think they'd even understand the question you are asking. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow From awrifford at sc.rr.com Thu Dec 21 23:29:53 2000 From: awrifford at sc.rr.com (Anthony Wrifford) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:29:53 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: From tom at unicorn.lemuria.org Thu Dec 21 14:46:50 2000 From: tom at unicorn.lemuria.org (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:46:50 +0100 Subject: Copy protection of ordinary disk drives? Message-ID: <20001221234650.A9164@lemuria.org> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:16:03 -0800 From: John Gilmore To: cryptography at c2.net, gnu at toad.com Subject: IBM&Intel push copy protection into ordinary disk drives The Register has broken a story of the latest tragedy of copyright mania in the computer industry. Intel and IBM have invented and are pushing a change to the standard spec for PC hard drives that would make each one enforce "copy protection" on the data stored on the hard drive. You wouldn't be able to copy data from your own hard drive to another drive, or back it up, without permission from some third party. Every drive would have a unique ID and unique keys, and would encrypt the data it stores -- not to protect YOU, the drive's owner, but to protect unnamed third parties AGAINST you. The same guy who leads the DVD Copy Control Association is heading the organization that licenses this new technology -- John Hoy. He's a front-man for the movie and record companies, and a leading figure in the California DVD lawsuit. These people are lunatics, who would destroy the future of free expression and technological development, so they could sit in easy chairs at the top of the smoking ruins and light their cigars off 'em. The folks at Intel and IBM who are letting themselves be led by the nose are even crazier. They've piled fortunes on fortunes by building machines that are better and better at copying and communicating WHATEVER collections of raw bits their customers desire to copy. Now for some completely unfathomable reason, they're actively destroying that working business model. Instead they're building in circuitry that gives third parties enforceable veto power over which bits their customers can send where. (This disk drive stuff is just the tip of the iceberg; they're doing the same thing with LCD monitors, flash memory, digital cable interfaces, BIOSes, and the OS. Next week we'll probably hear of some new industry-wide copy protection spec, perhaps for network interface cards or DRAMs.) I don't know whether the movie moguls are holding compromising photos of Intel and IBM executives over their heads, or whether they have simply lost their minds. The only way they can succeed in imposing this on the buyers in the computer market is if those buyers have no honest vendors to turn to. Or if those buyers honestly don't know what they are being sold. So spread the word. No copy protection should exist ANYWHERE in generic computer hardware! It's up to the BUYER to determine what to use their product for. It's not up to the vendors of generic hardware, and certainly not up to a record company that's shadily influencing those vendors in back-room meetings. Demand a policy declaration from your vendor that they will build only open hardware, not covertly controlled hardware. Use your purchasing dollars to enforce that policy. Our business should go to the honest vendors, who'll sell you a drive and an OS and a motherboard and a CPU and a monitor that YOU, the buyer, can determine what is a valid use of. Don't send your money to Intel or IBM or Sony. Give your money to the vendors who'll sell you a product that YOU control. John http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/15620.html Stealth plan puts copy protection into every hard drive Hastening a rapid demise for the free copying of digital media, the next generation of hard disks is likely to come with copyright protection countermeasures built in. Technical committees of NCTIS, the ANSI-blessed standards body, have been discussing the incorporation of content protection currently used for removable media into industry-standard ATA drives, using proprietary technology originating from the 4C Entity. They're the people who brought you CSS2: IBM, Toshiba Intel and Matsushita. The scheme envisaged brands each drive with a unique identifier at manufacturing time. The proposals are already at an advanced stage: three drafts have already been discussed for incorporating CPRM (Content Protection for Recordable Media) into the ATA specification by the NCTIS T.13 committee. The committee next meets in February. If, as expected, the CPRM extensions become part of the ATA specification, copyright protection will be in every industry-standard hard disk by next summer, according to IBM. However, what's likely to create a firestorm of industry protest is that the proposed mechanism introduces problems to moving data between compliant and non-compliant hard drives. Modifications to existing backup programs, imaging software, RAID arrays and logical volume managers will be required to cope with the new drives, The Register has discovered. The ramifications are enormous. Although the benefit to producers is great - - bringing the holy grail of secure content one step closer - the costs to consumers will be significant. For example, corporate IT departments will be unable to mix compliant and non-compliant ATA drives as they try to enforce uniform back up policies, we've discovered. Restoring personal backups to a different physical drive - a common enough occurrence when a disk has failed - will require authentication with a central server. Imaging software used by OEMs and large corporates to distribute one-to-many disk images will also need to be modified. And the move casts a shadow over some of the hottest emerging business models: the network attached storage industry, which relies on virtualising media pools, the digital video recorder market currently led by TiVo and Replay, and the nascent peer-to-peer model all face technical disruption. How it works Today, CPRM is implemented on DVD and removable SD disks. But the SCSI and ATA/ATAPI proposals incorporate an extension of the scheme to allow the encryption to be used on hard drives, in addition to removable drives and ATAPI devices such as CD-ROMs and DVD drives. The proposal makes use of around a megabyte of read-only storage on each hard drive that isn't usually accessed by the end user for a "Media Key Block". According to research scientist Jeffrey Lotspiech of IBM's Almaden Research Lab, this is a matrix of 16 columns and some 3000 rows. A static "Media Unique Key" in a separate, hidden area of the drive, identifies the individual drive. Making use of broadcast encryption and one way key algorithms, would-be hackers face a daunting number of keys to break. CPRM adds new commands into the ATA specification. But because the system makes use of the physical location on the device of the encrypted item, software designed for non-compliant drives will break in some circumstance when encrypted data files are moved. "It requires both drives to be compliant when data is to move from one disk to another," says Lotspiech. "And a compliant application to get all that data to the new drive". So a hard drive containing small individual containing non-copyable files of say, Gartner reports, will essentially be unrestorable using existing backup programs. Similar problems arise with RAID arrays using IDE disks, acknowledges IBM. "This may help IT managers when auditing for copyright compliance," suggests IBM spokesman Mike Ross. However the decision to make an organisation CPRM compliant. Free copying is no longer an option:- "It's not up to us to determine or guess what the content provider might permit," says Ross. "Nothing will handcuff proper backup and restoring provided the content provider permits it. Some may not permit it - but what will the customers reaction be then?" Well, quite. Clearly key management becomes an urgent priority when CPRM-aware drives are introduced next year, as CPRM-aware content will surely follow. The decision to go with CPRM in an organisation is also an all or nothing proposition - it can't be introduced gradually. But for home users, the party's over. CRPM paves the way for CPRM-compliant audio CDs, and the free exchange of digital recordings will be limited to non-CPRM media. The Register understands there is fierce opposition to the plan from Microsoft and its OEM customers. Generating hundreds of thousands of images each week, the PC industry relies on data going from one master to many reliably and smoothly. Imaging programs face the same problem as restore software: the target disk isn't the same as the originator disk. Microsoft Redmond already has put in a counter-proposal that eschews low-level hardware calls. Where were you when they copy-protected the hardware, Daddy? The intellectual property is owned by the 4C Entity, and administered by License Management International, LLC - a limited liability company based in Morgan Hill, California. Company founder John Hoy told The Register that "LMI,LC holds no intellectual property. Entities are granted a master license." Per-device royalties are payable to LLI,LC. License fees of between 2c and 17c have been mooted for each device, according to documents circulated to the T.13 group. 5c is the current rate for a DVD device. Three possible paths lie ahead. CPRM may be bounced out of the T.x committees. Or manufacturers may choose not to implement it, and opt for an incomplete ATA or SCSI specification. This is deemed unlikely. Or thirdly, manufacturers may choose to implement the new command set, but not activate it. Although it hardly has a prominent media profile - yet - CPRM in hardware is the most comprehensive mechanism for enforcing rights protection the industry has seen, and is likely to be viewed by content producers as a magic bullet. Its progress depends on whether its proponents can overcome industry and consumer opposition. Which might be brewing right about ... now. ----- End forwarded message ----- From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Thu Dec 21 21:47:15 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:47:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: china-taiwan and limits of state action Message-ID: Recently a friend asked me what my opinion was as a "computer guy" about the China-Taiwan "cyber warfare." At first it seemed that there wasn't much to say, except maybe to point out that this seems to be a ways away from Schwartau's info-war. One thing has started to bother me a bit, though. How does mainland China distinguish an attack by the Taiwanese state from an attack launched by private Taiwainese citizens? Do they even *care*, since they have such poor relations with Taiwan anyway? What happens if Taiwan's government says it wants to normalize relations with China (and vice versa), but the attacks continue? Will they have to find and punish their own citizens in order for the normalization to move forward? Where do treaty obligations compel a state to prosecute citizens for behavior which it may have tacitly encouraged before? Interestingly enough, an attack where the originator is identified seems to be more of a problem. At least with an anonymous attack, a state can plausibly deny that one of its citizens was involved. In fact, you could see identified attacks on Chinese systems coming to be a form of civil disobedience if Taiwan were to go this route. (I don't think Taiwan will - I'm just interested in this interplay between private action and the state's responsibility.) Suppose Taiwan proves unwilling or unable to stop private citizens from attacking mainland Chinese systems. Now there seems to be a parallel with situations where states are considered either supportive of terrorism or too incompetent to prevent terrorist activity. Israel occupied southern Lebanon because it didn't see any other way to prevent terrorist activity. The alleged use of Libya and Sudan as "training grounds" could be viewed as a kind of jurisdictional arbitrage, and a kind which has been reacted against violently in the past. Fear of an analogous situation online seems to be behind the "world cyber-crime treaty" mentioned here recently. Now bringing it closer to home, does that mean opposition to the world cyber crime treaty could be cast as "support for cyber-terrorism"? -David From brian at nexuscomputing.com Fri Dec 22 07:17:51 2000 From: brian at nexuscomputing.com (Brian Lane) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:17:51 -0800 Subject: Copy protection of ordinary disk drives? In-Reply-To: <20001221234650.A9164@lemuria.org>; from tom@unicorn.lemuria.org on Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:46:50PM +0100 References: <20001221234650.A9164@lemuria.org> Message-ID: <20001222071751.A439@nexuscomputing.com> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/15620.html > > Stealth plan puts copy protection into every hard drive > [snip] > How it works > > But because the system makes use of the physical location on the device of > the encrypted item, software designed for non-compliant drives will break > in some circumstance when encrypted data files are moved. > > "It requires both drives to be compliant when data is to move from one disk > to another," says Lotspiech. "And a compliant application to get all that > data to the new drive". > > So a hard drive containing small individual containing non-copyable files > of say, Gartner reports, will essentially be unrestorable using existing > backup programs. Maybe I'm being dense today, but I don't see how this is going to work. So they have a key on your drive, they encrypt the data using this key, but at some point the data has to be decrypted and used, which means that it can be intercepted. The article isn't too clear, but it appears that a 'compliant application' is going to be needed to do the encrypt/decrypt? All software is subject to disassembly, so there is no real protection there. Not that it isn't a really dumb idea, they're trying to remove your control of the bits stored on your harddrive -- a Really Bad Thing obviously. Brian -- Brian C. Lane - Linux Programmer/Consultant/Writer www.brianlane.com Virtual Web Hosting www.nexuscomputing.com NRA Life Member www.libertynews.org ============================================================================ Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. -- Daniel Webster -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 22 08:45:09 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:45:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copy protection of ordinary disk drives? In-Reply-To: <20001222071751.A439@nexuscomputing.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Dec 2000, Brian Lane wrote: >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/15620.html >> >> Stealth plan puts copy protection into every hard drive >> >> But because the system makes use of the physical location on the device of >> the encrypted item, software designed for non-compliant drives will break >> in some circumstance when encrypted data files are moved. >> >> "It requires both drives to be compliant when data is to move from one disk >> to another," says Lotspiech. "And a compliant application to get all that >> data to the new drive". >> >> So a hard drive containing small individual containing non-copyable files >> of say, Gartner reports, will essentially be unrestorable using existing >> backup programs. > > Maybe I'm being dense today, but I don't see how this is going to work. So >they have a key on your drive, they encrypt the data using this key, but at >some point the data has to be decrypted and used, which means that it can be >intercepted. > > The article isn't too clear, but it appears that a 'compliant application' >is going to be needed to do the encrypt/decrypt? All software is subject to >disassembly, so there is no real protection there. > Here's one other thing; how does the "compliant application" get the decryption keys?? If I can't copy files without being hooked up to the net, then half my computers at home will quit working! (I have two distinct networks: one for secure data and one with internet access...). If the compliant application needs to hook up to the internet in order to get a decryption key to read data, these drives will not work for a host of legitimate non-networked applications. On the other hand if the compliant application does NOT need to hook up to the internet to get keys, then someone with a debugger will have a utility to get your drive's whole list of keys (and a patched BIOS to make it behave like a regular drive) within a couple weeks of their introduction to the market. Unless it comes out at the same time as "encrypted instruction set" computing, where the executables are decrypted inside the CPU... Bear From pcw2 at flyzone.com Fri Dec 22 07:19:46 2000 From: pcw2 at flyzone.com (Peter Wayner) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:19:46 -0500 Subject: About Gilmore's letter on IBM&Intel push copy protection into ordinary disk drives In-Reply-To: <200012212116.NAA00368@toad.com> References: <200012212116.NAA00368@toad.com> Message-ID: I'm glad that John spent the time and energy to write a good summary of what is going on in the hard disk area. He's spot on about the dangers to our liberties. But I was quite worried until I began to see the dangers for IBM and Intel in the scheme. This is not an easy play for them because it threatens much of the entire industry in these ways: 1) This is going to increase the cost of using PCs dramatically. Hard disk crashes are going to go from major disasters to utter catastrophes. When the disks go bad, you'll need to buy all new copies of the software, images, movies, and what not. Backing up? Well, that will be another headache that won't be possible without the right permissions. They can wave their hands, but there's no getting around the fact that installing software is going to have plenty of new red tape. I don't see how they will be able to distinguish between the truth and a lie when a guy calls up and say, "uh, my hard disk crashed. I need to install it on a new machine." They either authorize it or they don't. In fact, they'll probably have to automate the process because it's so expensive to have an actual human on the other end. My mean time between hard disk failures is about 2 years, but I'm a heavy user. Can we really afford to create a new class of technicians who do special hard disk replacement for 20% of America each year? 2) This really changes the nature of the business. Right now the PC and software manufacturers sell you a box, wave good bye and say, "Good luck." Support is a joke. Actually fixing the machines costs too much money. Anything worth under $400 is essentially disposable. If they put trusted hard disks in place, then there needs to be someone to care for these disks. They can't just keep waving good bye when you walk out the door. The business model needs to change to be something like cable television. That means hiring thousands if not millions of technicians who will come to your house and fix your hard drive. 3) This is really going to slow innovation and that's really going to hurt IBM and Intel. Already the hardware guys depend heavily on upgrades to keep people buying machines. If people can't move their software to a new zippier computer, then they're not going to buy a new zippier computer. Take a look at the cable television world. Most people are still using 1970's era technology. It just takes too long for the service technicians to go to each house and replace things. But that's the only way you can run the world when you have trusted corrals for special data. You can't just let any schmoe upgrade their hard disk or any schmoe is going to be able to pirate Hollywood movies. Gosh, that's all us proles do all day long you know. Pirate content. 4) This is another opportunity for the open source community to come in and steal market share. If the press reports in Slashdot and other places are to believed, it was only a few months ago that Microsoft marched into the offices at Virginia Beach and asked them to produce the certificates for their copies of Windows. You know, those neat hologram embossed slips of paper. They didn't have one for each PC so they had to pay more than $121,000. (http://slashdot.org/articles/00/12/01/0532206.shtml) This is another opportunity for Red Hat or some other Linux box company to walk into companies and say, "Use Red Hat, Mozilla, and Star Office and you'll never have license problems again. The hardware guys claim that they can take care of rights management issues for you. So can we and we cost alot less." I think this may be the greatest thing that's come along for open source OSs yet. As Princess Leia said in the Hollywood content "Star Wars", "The harder you squeeze your fingers Vader, the more planets slip through the fingers." Do those content wrangling lawyers down there ever look at the content they protect? -- -------------------------- Tune to http://www.wayner.org/books/ffa/ for information on my book on Free Software. From ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi Fri Dec 22 00:51:52 2000 From: ssyreeni at cc.helsinki.fi (Sampo A Syreeni) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:51:52 +0200 (EET) Subject: encryption helps catch a cannibal In-Reply-To: <200012211529.JAA21998@manifold.algebra.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Igor Chudov wrote: >>The boy's body has never been found, Light said. >> >>But an FBI encryption expert, who stumbled across a coded message among >>Bar-Jonah's papers earlier this year, found what authorities now believe >>was a kind of confession of cannibalism, Light said. Fer fuck sake. "It's for the children. We don't want them to get eaten, do we?" Sampo Syreeni , aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university From info at giganetstore.com Fri Dec 22 03:09:07 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:09:07 -0000 Subject: Boas Festas Message-ID: <054d207091116c0WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Um Natal cheio de prendas e um Feliz Ano Novo, são os desejos de toda a equipa da Se não conseguir visualizar o seu cartão clique aqui Para retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1946 bytes Desc: not available URL: From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 22 03:10:07 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:10:07 +0000 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. References: Message-ID: <3A43368F.1E464FD2@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Ray Dillinger wrote: [...snip...] > >Now, let's assume we've a neighbor making bombs and his garage is 15 ft. > >from your childs bedroom? Let's ask the same sorts of questions? > > If it's a residential neighborhood, then it was probably developed > by a commercial real estate developer. In order to improve his bottom > line, he will probably retain ownership of certain property rights... Only an American could write this! You guys live in new houses, most of you. Whoever the property developer was in my neighbourhood in London, they probably died well before the first world war. And the company I bought my flat from went into liquidation some years ago, with the owners ending up in jail... Anyway in practice, right now, even in America, most people don't live in houses owned by property developers, and don't have the extensive set of complex legal conditions imposed on them that your idea would require. How does your "market-controlled anarchy" handle, say, building development on flood plains? A big political hot potato here at the moment, after our little brushes with real weather in October, & I should think a bigger one for anyone within 100 miles of the Mississippi and 40 feet of river level. I have no problem with the idea that someone who builds or buys in a flood-risk area should bear the risk of flood damage to their own property, which they probably got cheap because of the risk. (In the October floods in England there was some prat on the TV going on about how unlucky it was that the SAME PEOPLE got flooded out in Gloucester this time round as did last time. I couldn't help humming that old Sunday School song "The Wise Man built his house upon the rock... the rain came down and the floods came up, the rain came down and the floods came up...") But, by building on floodplains, and even more by "improving" farmland with drainage and dykes & bunds and various barriers to water flooding the land - in other words by defending your own property against floods - you make the floods more dangerous for others when they come. One of the reasons that some of the floods were worse than expected this year is that the water which used to spill onto seasonally flooded farmland now is constrained to stay in the river and breaks its banks somewhere else. So what do you do when the flood wipes out your house because some farmer 20 miles away drained his own land, as he has every right to do? Sue him? And if he can't afford it? (which he can't of course if the flood has just wiped out 3 streets of posh shops in a small city). [...snip...] > >As we've discussed before on the list, in the cases of commen services > >like fire fighting which are converted to profit making enterprises, how > >is intentional fire starting to be prevented? > > It's very hard. Probably the best route would be again through > property developers; the property developer could retain the exclusive > right to sell fire insurance on these buildings, and then license the > right *only* to insurance companies who contributed a set percentage of > premiums to a local firefighters company. Getting all these services > straightened out is just good business from the property development > POV. That's how things were run in London in the 18th century. It didn't work very well. Which is whey they started paying for the fire brigade out of tax. The problem is you don't want your *neighbour's* house to burn down.Even if you really hate the neighbour, it is dangerous for you. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 22 03:16:20 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:16:20 +0000 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A433804.A26D299E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> "James A. Donald" wrote: > The nearest equivalent in European history to the crimes of the the nazis > and commies was the spanish inquisition,and that was a small scale > operation: Handcrafted murder rather than mass produced murder. Each > victim was individually identified and processed, rather dumped by the > truckload. They murdered about 12000, and the world was horrified by their > crimes. 1 out of 10 for knowledge of history. I promise not to mention the witch hunts, or the French & Italian massacres of Protestants, or the aftermath of the Wars of religion, or the Thirty Year's War or Louis XIVs campaigns in Germany, or the Turkish massacres in Bulgaria & Armenia, or the slave trade (which certainly killed millions) or the Spanish persecution and expulsion of the Jews (whoops, that *was* the Inquisition, you already got that one) if you can tell me why the Tsarist pogroms of the late 19th century & the Black Hand were neither evil nor "mass produced". Ken From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 22 12:56:50 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:56:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Crypto on cable...chuck the vce? Message-ID: http://theregister.co.uk ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at flex.com Fri Dec 22 17:32:20 2000 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:32:20 -1000 Subject: Crypto questions In-Reply-To: <000601c069d1$62ca7290$a91819ac@NDBCap.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001222153047.00b8f790@flex.com> At 10:35 AM 12/19/00 -0500, Scoville, Chad wrote: >I've been actively reading posts on this list for about two years now, and >I'm in he process of actually trying to design/implement a data network >where security is of the utmost priority. Given this, >Where is a good starting point to >find out about packages using algorithms which are unbreakable as of yet. this question is a non sequitur. Toad.com is deprecated, and so are you. From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 22 13:35:28 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:35:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: Single photon emission Message-ID: http://www.sciencedaily.com ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From reeza at flex.com Fri Dec 22 17:37:22 2000 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:37:22 -1000 Subject: Question????? In-Reply-To: <000801c06afe$40badf40$4595d5d1@stephenwar> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001222153543.00b03e70@flex.com> Welcome to the real world, where information is king and those who hold it, tend to guard it like thieves. You might also consider building your knowledge base, so the seemingly cryptic instructions make more sense. At 07:29 PM 12/20/00 -0800, lc123 wrote: >I recently downloaded potato for remailers including Mixmaster among >others. I set up all my directories, have read approx all 50 pages of the >how-to & help pages, and I still can't figure out how this program "works" >let alone how to "use" it. I can't figure out where to compose the text >body, where to save it to, what to call it, how to send it, etc etc etc >etc....... Is there a place that offers instructions for the >"instructions"??? It appears that all the text support is geared to >those who really don't need it. Any help would greatly be appreciated. lc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 985 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reeza at flex.com Fri Dec 22 17:45:17 2000 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:45:17 -1000 Subject: Fwd: Out of Office AutoReply: Crypto questions Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001222154350.0389bbd0@flex.com> geez. I thought someone who had been around as long as the Peter would know better than this, but what do I find in my inbox, moments after sending to the list? I'll chalk it up to hurried departure, this time,,, From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 22 08:13:53 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:13:53 +0100 Subject: Copy protection of ordinary disk drives? References: <20001222071751.A439@nexuscomputing.com> Message-ID: <3A437DC1.B57E140@ricardo.de> Brian Lane wrote: > Maybe I'm being dense today, but I don't see how this is going to > work. So > they have a key on your drive, they encrypt the data using this key, but > at > some point the data has to be decrypted and used, which means that it > can be > intercepted. > > The article isn't too clear, but it appears that a 'compliant > application' > is going to be needed to do the encrypt/decrypt? All software is subject > to > disassembly, so there is no real protection there. I'd suspect that this is part of the "protect our(!) hardware from the consumer" process that's been going on for a few years. most likely, the whole event will happen inside the disk, which will be made more or less tamper-resistant. now remember that there've been planned for a fully encrypted bus system for quite some time. the basic idea is that the raw bits are never accessable in software. the software will just tell the hardware "hey, could you please push the encrypted bits of that song over the encrypted bus to the crypto-speakers?". interesting change in culture. not too long ago, knowing how your home electronics actually work was the sign of the geek. not too far in the past, knowing how your home electronics really works will be the sign of the criminal. From k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk Fri Dec 22 10:04:00 2000 From: k.brown at ccs.bbk.ac.uk (Ken Brown) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:04:00 +0000 Subject: Copy protection of ordinary disk drives? References: <20001221234650.A9164@lemuria.org> <20001222071751.A439@nexuscomputing.com> Message-ID: <3A439790.B6D9B50C@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> Isn't the idea that you don't get to see the surface of the disk? The copy protection is in the onboard circuitry. The drive refuses to return data from "unreadable" sectors/blocks, where readability depends on a function of the of the drive serial number, some sort of certificate in the system request, and the relevant field in the media key block. For most people it wouldn't even have to be encrypted. They aren't going to break the box open & put in their own chips, or take out the platters & read them with their own probes. This will presumably crash & burn in the market. As long as anyone sells user-controllable disks, we will carry on buying them. It's not as if IBM are the only manufacturers in the world. Ken Brian Lane wrote: > Maybe I'm being dense today, but I don't see how this is going to work. So > they have a key on your drive, they encrypt the data using this key, but at > some point the data has to be decrypted and used, which means that it can be > intercepted. > > The article isn't too clear, but it appears that a 'compliant application' > is going to be needed to do the encrypt/decrypt? All software is subject to > disassembly, so there is no real protection there. > > Not that it isn't a really dumb idea, they're trying to remove your > control of the bits stored on your harddrive -- a Really Bad Thing > obviously. > > Brian > > -- From netcenter-reg at netscape.com Fri Dec 22 18:25:29 2000 From: netcenter-reg at netscape.com (Netcenter Registration) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:25:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Welcome to Netcenter Message-ID: <200012230225.SAA16021@ureg20.netscape.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 5285 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Dec 22 19:32:52 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:32:52 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A433804.A26D299E@ccs.bbk.ac.uk> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001222191547.01d5c638@shell11.ba.best.com> -- "James A. Donald" wrote: > > The nearest equivalent in European history to the crimes of the > > the nazis and commies was the spanish inquisition,and that was a > > small scale operation: Handcrafted murder rather than mass > > produced murder. Each > victim was individually identified and processed, rather dumped by > the truckload. They murdered about 12000, and the world was > horrified by their crimes. At 11:16 AM 12/22/2000 +0000, Ken Brown wrote: > 1 out of 10 for knowledge of history. > > I promise not to mention the witch hunts, or the French & Italian > massacres of Protestants, or the aftermath of the Wars of religion, > or the Thirty Year's War or Louis XIVs campaigns in Germany, War crimes, bad they though are, are not the same as similar crimes committed against an unresisting and disarmed populace. Many governments have committed crimes similar to those committed by the nazis and commies in the course of fighting guerrilla wars, for example the recent war crimes in Guatemala But when the guerrilla war ended, those governments ceased to commit those crimes. With commies and nazis, the end of resistance frequently resulted in an escalation, rather than diminution of those crimes, as for example recently occurred after the communist victories in Cambodia and South Vietnam. During the American war between the states, the feds created artificial famine in much the same way, for much the same reasons, as the Soviet, Cambodian, North Korean, and Ethiopian governments did, deliberately starving non combatants just as communist regimes did. When the war between the American states ended, so did hunger, whereas in communist states, the famine intensified as resistance diminished. The less the resistance, the greater the destruction. The difference between the US regime and the Pol Pot regime was small during war, but obvious after victory. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG jmKGEODS5+FIZeg+Uw98pzyOWCS2+J8lElvJBq8F 4Z7J6on5d8kQYvLw3jCS9FjKu9nBHlNRAj5tpgANr From rdcrisp at earthlink.net Fri Dec 22 20:10:01 2000 From: rdcrisp at earthlink.net (Richard Crisp) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:10:01 -0800 Subject: china-taiwan and limits of state action References: Message-ID: <3A442599.47E21522@earthlink.net> I think the attacks are far more likely to be launched by the Mainland folks against the Taiwanese rather than the other way around. The mainlanders want to destabilize Taiwan. Taiwan likes a stable mainland, because so many Taiwanese companies have set up manufacturing facilities in the mainland to exploit the cheap labor. Most if not all of the PC infrastructure companies do the bulk of their manufacturing and or assembly in the mainland because labor is so cheap. It is not in in the business interest of Taiwan to destabilize the mainland. On the other hand, the mainland wants Taiwan to re-join them, so if they can weaken them they feel they are more likely to be successful. rdc petro wrote: > >Recently a friend asked me what my opinion was as a "computer guy" about > >the China-Taiwan "cyber warfare." At first it seemed that there wasn't > >much to say, except maybe to point out that this seems to be a ways away > >from Schwartau's info-war. > > > >One thing has started to bother me a bit, though. How does mainland China > >distinguish an attack by the Taiwanese state from an attack launched by > >private Taiwainese citizens? Do they even *care*, since they have such > >poor relations with Taiwan anyway? > > Given the nature of China's society and government, I don't > think they'd even understand the question you are asking. > > -- > A quote from Petro's Archives: > ********************************************** > "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal > authority, I keep imagining its competence." > John Perry Barlow From brian at nexuscomputing.com Fri Dec 22 20:13:53 2000 From: brian at nexuscomputing.com (Brian Lane) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:13:53 -0800 Subject: Copy protection of ordinary disk drives? In-Reply-To: <3A437DC1.B57E140@ricardo.de>; from tom@ricardo.de on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 05:13:53PM +0100 References: <20001222071751.A439@nexuscomputing.com> <3A437DC1.B57E140@ricardo.de> Message-ID: <20001222201353.A506@nexuscomputing.com> On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 05:13:53PM +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: > Brian Lane wrote: > > Maybe I'm being dense today, but I don't see how this is going to > > work. So > > they have a key on your drive, they encrypt the data using this key, but > > at > > some point the data has to be decrypted and used, which means that it > > can be > > intercepted. > > > interesting change in culture. not too long ago, knowing how your home > electronics actually work was the sign of the geek. not too far in the > past, knowing how your home electronics really works will be the sign of > the criminal. I can see it now -- "Mr. Lane, you are being convicted for reverse enginerring the embedded encryption system in the IBM-SuperSekret-HD." "But! But! I was just trying to recover my Quicken 2001 backup!" as they drag me off to prison. The only way they can make this even begin to work in the marketplace is to force manufacturers to stop producing uncontrollable drives. I wouldn't be suprised if there was an amendment to enact this waiting to attach itself to an obscure bill in Congress. Or maybe I'm just being paranoid? Brian -- Brian C. Lane - Linux Programmer/Consultant/Writer www.brianlane.com Virtual Web Hosting www.nexuscomputing.com NRA Life Member www.libertynews.org ============================================================================ I had a friend who was a clown... when he died, all his friends went to the funeral in one car... -- Stephen Wright -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 224 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ptrei at rsasecurity.com Fri Dec 22 17:39:05 2000 From: ptrei at rsasecurity.com (Trei, Peter) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:39:05 -0500 Subject: Out of Office AutoReply: Crypto questions Message-ID: I'm out until Jan 2. Jeff Hamell, Bill Duane, and John Worral have contact info From info at giganetstore.com Fri Dec 22 13:06:07 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 21:06:07 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Novo_Servi=E7o_giganetstore.com_:=29?= Message-ID: <060c107062116c0WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Caro(a) Cliente, Temos o prazer de lhe comunicar que a giganetstore.com criou um novo serviço pessoal de apoio ao cliente. Trata-se de um inovador canal de conversação personalizado (chat), criado exclusivamente para oferecer mais comodidade e um serviço mais rápido e agradável para que todas as suas dúvidas tenham resposta em tempo real. 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All players must be 21 years and over. Bonus dollars are only available to credit card holders and depositors and we guarantee minimum wins. Good luck! mailto:removal1 at softhome.net From nobody at noisebox.remailer.org Fri Dec 22 23:01:55 2000 From: nobody at noisebox.remailer.org (Anonymous) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:01:55 -0700 Subject: Device could lead to hack-proof data Message-ID: By Dan Vergano, USA TODAY Scientists have unveiled a miniature device that emits light particles, or photons, one at a time, an accomplishment which could pave the way for impregnable coded messages and electronic commerce in coming decades. In theory, such a single light particle offers benefits to people hoping to create secure communications, including bankers in need of secure pathways for transactions or governments relaying secret diplomatic documents. Writing in Friday's Science, researchers note that such fundamental particles cannot be examined without altering their physical characteristics, part of the physics theory known as quantum mechanics. To create an unbreakable code, physicists plan to send a stream of single photons imprinted with the key to a later coded message. If transmitted via fiber-optic cable, a third party could not intercept the particles without scrambling the key. Alerted to the transgression, the target of the eavesdropping would halt transmission of the coded message. ''I think this work represents a very nice advance towards that goal,'' says David Peter DiVincenzo, an encryption expert at IBM's T.J. Watson Research Center in Yorktown Heights, N.Y. But a number of technological hurdles need to be overcome before so-called ''quantum cryptography'' becomes a reality, he cautions. To create a photon ''turnstile,'' a University of California-Santa Barbara research team placed ''quantum dots'' Q crystals containing confined groups of negative- and positive-charged atoms Q onto a mushroom-shaped semiconductor. When pulsed with a laser, the structure releases a single photon, the team reports in Science. Even lasers, which represent the best control of light emission today, release tens of thousands of photons at once, whereas control of single photons has long been a scientific goal. ''Really, it's about the ultimate control of light,'' DiVincenzo says. At least four other teams are pursuing single-photon devices, he adds. In September, for example, Stanford University researchers reported a way to produce single photons that is 84% efficient. Now, ''we can produce a photon every time, so the efficiency is 100%,'' says scientist Pierre Petroff of UC-Santa Barbara, a member of the device team led by his colleague Atac Imamoglu. In the next year, the photon turnstile team hopes to raise the temperature at which their device functions above its current limit of minus-321 degrees Fahrenheit. They hope to produce the effect at room temperatures. Support for development of the photon turnstile came from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, a Defense Department agency charged with advancing information technology. 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To take more information and make really money go to: http://members.tripod.de/bestdomain (you will get a confidential access to get your stats every day) Yours faithfully Registration Department If you wish to be removed from our information service: wantunsuscribe at hotmail.com PRIVACY POLICY: IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO RECEIVE FUTURE COMMUNICATIONS FROM THIS EMAIL ADDRESS, PLEASE COLLABORATE WITH US BY NOT PRESSURING THE SERVERS OR PROVIDERS.IN THIS WAY EVERYONE THAT DESIRES CAN BE DROPPED OFF THE LIST. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Fri Dec 22 21:50:15 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:50:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: china-taiwan and limits of state action In-Reply-To: <3A442599.47E21522@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Dec 2000, Richard Crisp wrote: > I think the attacks are far more likely to be launched by the Mainland folks > against the Taiwanese rather than the other way around. The mainlanders want > to destabilize Taiwan. Taiwan likes a stable mainland, because so many What intrigues me about this conflict is that it seems possible for ordinary citizens to have the same kind of access to attack that the state does. So speaking of "the mainlanders" or "Taiwan likes" may be misplaced. Of course, most private citizens won't be able to do much with it, but there may be some who will. I agree with you with respect to the mainland and Taiwanese governments, though. -David From alan at clueserver.org Sat Dec 23 02:56:07 2000 From: alan at clueserver.org (Alan Olsen) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:56:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: have we had any "cyber-terrorist" attacks in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Dec 2000, dmolnar wrote: > I can think of two terrorist attacks on U.S. soil without too much > difficulty: the World Trade Center and Oklahoma City. > > In both cases, computers and "internet" loosely defined played a minor > organizational role. McVeigh used AOL, and the Trade Center > bombers had some plans on a floppy disk. > > Have we had any instance of "cyber terrorism" -- you know, the kind of > awful scenario which most people reading this could cook up without too > much difficulty. or is the question not well formed since if it was a > successful attack, we wouldn't know? There are always hints about such a thing supposedly happening. When you press for details, it becomes very hard to find anything resembling actual incidents. The "Cyber Terrorism" scare is just that. A scare. It is a way for various government agencies to justify their insane budgets. I expect we will have a few real incidents in the near future, but I expect they will be like the rash of cases a few years ago involving supposed Anthrax attacks. Lots of cases where fake anthrax attacks were supposedly staged. (Conviently in public places where people would find them before hand.) No real indication of the real thing. I expect if we do have a "Cyber Pearl Harbor" it will be from some government agency (probably the FBI) trying to work up the funding to "protect" us. alan at ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." From shirado at m-net.arbornet.org Sat Dec 23 00:26:24 2000 From: shirado at m-net.arbornet.org (Alex Shirado) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:26:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: china-taiwan and limits of state action In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, You have a simple view of China-Taiwan relations, but you are more of a computer specialist than an Asia one, so your deficiency is quite forgivable. I recently heard a story about policeman in Taiwan who is close to retiring. When he was asked what he planned to do when he retires, he said that he wanted to go back to the Mainland. To the outsider, this would seem strange, but it would be hard to believe that Taiwan and China do not have a workable and effective MO. Someone who responded to your post stated that it is far more likely that China would be the aggressor in a cross-strait spat. Now, where the Taiwan-China working MO might break down would be when individuals act. In a way, hacking is the attack of the powerless: it allows geeks like us to launch an assault when we cannot afford tactical weapons. So it is wrong to think that angry Taiwanese would hesitate from waving the red in front of the bull. As you state, there is no cyberterror treaty governing how information regarding attacks is treated. Many of us take for granted that other informal arrangements govern how this information is treated. The questions you ask are valid. Indeed, they are some of the reasons why this listserve exists. You are asking core questions as to how we should treat state activity and personal responsibility. When you find the answers, let me know ; ) > > What happens if Taiwan's government says it wants to normalize relations > with China (and vice versa), but the attacks continue? Will they have to > find and punish their own citizens in order for the normalization to move > forward? Where do treaty obligations compel a state to prosecute citizens > for behavior which it may have tacitly encouraged before? > > Interestingly enough, an attack where the originator is identified seems > to be more of a problem. At least with an anonymous attack, a state can > plausibly deny that one of its citizens was involved. In fact, you could > see identified attacks on Chinese systems coming to be a form of civil > disobedience if Taiwan were to go this route. > > (I don't think Taiwan will - I'm just interested in this interplay between > private action and the state's responsibility.) > > Suppose Taiwan proves unwilling or unable to stop private citizens from > attacking mainland Chinese systems. Now there seems to be a parallel with > situations where states are considered either supportive of terrorism or > too incompetent to prevent terrorist activity. Israel occupied southern > Lebanon because it didn't see any other way to prevent terrorist activity. > The alleged use of Libya and Sudan as "training grounds" could be viewed > as a kind of jurisdictional arbitrage, and a kind which has been reacted > against violently in the past. Fear of an analogous situation online seems > to be behind the "world cyber-crime treaty" mentioned here recently. > > Now bringing it closer to home, does that mean opposition to the world > cyber crime treaty could be cast as "support for cyber-terrorism"? > > -David > > From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Dec 23 02:12:16 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:12:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: china-taiwan and limits of state action In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Dec 2000, Alex Shirado wrote: > > David, > > You have a simple view of China-Taiwan relations, but you are more of a > computer specialist than an Asia one, so your deficiency is quite > forgivable. I suspected as much. The problem with this is that I saw the "individual action indistinguishable from state action" quickly and have been having a hard time thinking past it. I'm sure that the picture is much more nuanced than what I have... There are actually other "cyber-war" examples which come to mind where it wasn't clear whether an "attack" was the result of a state action or just some crackers. One such was when NATO's web site was defaced; there was a quote to the effect of "Now the war is fought on all fronts" which made the rounds. The quote is interesting first because it places defacing a web site on the same level as firing bullets at people. Next because I'm not sure if it was clear who exactly defaced the site. Recently I've heard that Israel and neighboring Arab countries are going back and forth. For instance http://www.all.net/intel/mid-east/10-26-2000-art1.html http://www.meib.org/articles/0011_me2.htm > > I recently heard a story about policeman in Taiwan who is close to > retiring. When he was asked what he planned to do when he retires, he > said that he wanted to go back to the Mainland. > > To the outsider, this would seem strange, but it would be hard to believe > that Taiwan and China do not have a workable and effective MO. I suppose the closest the U.S. has had to this was the Cold War. We did have some kind of MO with the USSR, but we didn't (don't) share the same kind of common heritage that China and Taiwan do. > > Someone who responded to your post stated that it is far more likely that > China would be the aggressor in a cross-strait spat. Now, where the > Taiwan-China working MO might break down would be when individuals > act. In a way, hacking is the attack of the powerless: it allows geeks > like us to launch an assault when we cannot afford tactical weapons. So it > is wrong to think that angry Taiwanese would hesitate from waving the red > in front of the bull. Yes - what seems interesting is that cracking makes offense as "democratic" as defense. That is, anyone with a weapon can defend their home and territory. That's what a militia is supposed to be, after all. (of course, given the massive inequality in weapons available to armies and available to private citizens, the militia may not last long...) But the local militia usually can't unilaterally launch an attack on some foreign country. (Well, maybe those on the border; the film "Canadian Bacon" comes to mind). A minor nitpick - it seems strange to say that we are "powerless" and then note how we can launch an assault. Maybe it would be better to say that this gives us a different kind of power or "redefines power." > As you state, there is no cyberterror treaty governing how information > regarding attacks is treated. Many of us take for granted that other > informal arrangements govern how this information is treated. If we think about it at all. Perhaps you're living in a country where more people remember other countries exist. :-) In any case, I find it interesting to see the resistance to the current proposed cyber-crime treaty http://www.gilc.org/privacy/coe-letter-1000.html which rests on notions of human rights and so on. Values I agree with. At the same time, this seems to place the signing organizations "against" the Israelis, Chinese, or others who may find that current informal arrangements aren't enough. > > The questions you ask are valid. Indeed, they are some of the reasons why > this listserve exists. You are asking core questions as to how we > should treat state activity and personal responsibility. When you find the > answers, let me know ; ) That's why I'm posting here, after all. Thanks, -David From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Dec 23 02:33:17 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:33:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: have we had any "cyber-terrorist" attacks in the U.S.? Message-ID: I can think of two terrorist attacks on U.S. soil without too much difficulty: the World Trade Center and Oklahoma City. In both cases, computers and "internet" loosely defined played a minor organizational role. McVeigh used AOL, and the Trade Center bombers had some plans on a floppy disk. Have we had any instance of "cyber terrorism" -- you know, the kind of awful scenario which most people reading this could cook up without too much difficulty. or is the question not well formed since if it was a successful attack, we wouldn't know? -David From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 23 14:36:57 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:36:57 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A4211C6.CEA70DD@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001220092303.01dff150@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001223141313.02188e98@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Tom Vogt: > > > your problem is still circular reasoning. the arabs who say that > > > the US s evil are wrong because they are evil, and they are evil > > > because you say so (or because your definition says so, which is > > > pretty much the same). your problem is that it works perfectly > > > well the other way around: james who says that the nazis are > > > evil is wrong because he is himself evil. James A. Donald: > > No it does not work the other way around. > > > > Normal people killing nazis and commies is not equivalent to nazis > > and commies killing normal people, for normal people are a threat > > only to evil people, whereas nazis and commies are a threat to > > everyone, including their fellow nazis and commies Tom Vogt: > james, this is EXACTLY what I'm getting at. your line works > perfectly, provided that the fact that the nazis are either evil or > wrong is already established beforehand. > > see: > : : for nazis are a threat only to evil people, while jews are > : : a threat to everyone, including their own race. Whether they were a threat or not is an objective fact. Jews were not a threat (unless perhaps one happens to live in Eretz Israel). Nazis were a threat. Anyone who says otherwise does not merely have different moral preferences. He is deluded or lying. In particular jews were not a threat to germans and the aryan race, whereas nazis really were a threat to everyone. That the nazis tended to murder anyone including their fellow nazis, and commies tended to murder anyone including their fellow commies, is an objective fact, capable of being true or false. That normal people do not tend to murder anyone, but only those that really do threaten them, is also an objective fact capable of being true or false. From such objective facts, we can determine that the nazis really were objectively evil. It is certainly true that many jews intended and continue to intend to steal the promised land from those currently occupying it, but the nazis intended to steal the whole world, and enslave everyone in it, whereas zionist jews merely intend that the current inhabitants of places near Israel shall go a few hundred miles further away. Those oppressed by the nazis were kept against their will and prevented from fleeing. Those oppressed by Israel refuse to leave, despite the fact that most jewish Israelis would very much like them to go away. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 7zfGQCzejsZpazkZGmLVe4irTUsEc5wcWJCz0ejb 4ki3SWlor/2iug//RcJrd507Ly6tJQnPJ3RYPIX8h From mmcnam at cgocable.net Sat Dec 23 16:01:55 2000 From: mmcnam at cgocable.net (Myke) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:01:55 -0500 Subject: Gas the niggers Message-ID: <002001c06d3c$bd28b1c0$e5358d18@bubr1.on.home.com> That's right, all North American shitskin niggers should be gassed to death! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 371 bytes Desc: not available URL: From honig at sprynet.com Sat Dec 23 19:04:17 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:04:17 -0800 Subject: About Gilmore's letter on IBM&Intel push copy protection into ordinary disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <200012212116.NAA00368@toad.com> <200012212116.NAA00368@toad.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001223190417.008478b0@pop.sprynet.com> At 10:19 AM 12/22/00 -0500, Peter Wayner wrote: >I don't see how they will be able to distinguish between the truth >and a lie when a guy calls up and say, "uh, my hard disk crashed. I >need to install it on a new machine." They either authorize it or >they don't. In fact, they'll probably have to automate the process >because it's so expensive to have an actual human on the other end. Just a historical anecdote. Back in the old days, software could be linked to the unique ID on Sun motherboards. To move software to a new machine, you called and maybe faxed something signed (with a pen) to the effect that you weren't ripping them off. This was before the software-based floating licenses became popular. dh From plexi100 at earthlink.net Sat Dec 23 23:30:57 2000 From: plexi100 at earthlink.net (Mr.D) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:30:57 -0800 Subject: keystroke recorders Message-ID: Is there a program available to detect hidden software and remove software that is sending screenshots or keystrokes to an unknown address from my computer? I currently use Spycop and have Norton AV installed. I have detected some suspicious activity on my computers and am tired of reloading my OS. Thank you in advance, Dave. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Dec 24 00:13:48 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:13:48 -0800 Subject: Crypto on cable...chuck the vce? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001224001348.00a824c0@idiom.com> The Register's front page only shows the most recent N stories, constantly changing. You'll need to point to the article itself, which looks like http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/15679.html an article Kevin Poulsen did for securityfocus.com. It looks quite similar to the stuff John Gilmore wrote about recently, except sleazier due to FCC involvement. At 02:56 PM 12/22/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >http://theregister.co.uk = Sneaky cable crypto scheme in the works = By: Kevin Poulsen = Posted: 22/12/2000 at 19:36 GMT = The cable television industry is moving = ahead with a controversial plan to = implement a copy protection scheme that will allow movie studios = and cable providers to control what viewers are able to record off = future digital cable TV networks. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Dec 24 00:21:16 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:21:16 -0800 Subject: Digital Economy Jargon Generator In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20001212162847.015b68a0@mail.well.com> References: <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> <4.3.0.20001212160433.0159a030@mail.well.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001224002116.0093d100@idiom.com> At 04:29 PM 12/12/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was >spoken by a Canadian!?! >>Now all we need is one of those translators, like the one that turns text >>into something the Muppet's Swedish Chef would say... Odd - I've been receiving these in random order. Blame Canada, I guess. In case nobody's mentioned it, one of the predecessors to http://www.anonymizer.com/ was "The Great Web Canadianizer", which, y'know', turned web pages into mock Canadian, eh? At least the Saturday Night Live Frozen North version, eh? So you'cd have some brews n donuts while getting your web pages translated outa yankee and hidin where they come from, eh? It's also useful for dealing with the US crypto export laws. Let P and Q be big primes, eh? Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From reeza at flex.com Sun Dec 24 16:09:21 2000 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:09:21 -1000 Subject: Naughty Santa Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001224134006.00b74b20@flex.com> Night Before Sexmas Twas the night before Christmas, and God it was neat, The kids were both gone, and my wife was in heat. The doors were all bolted, the phone off the hook, It was time for some nooky, by hook or by crook. Momma in her teddy, and I in the nude, Had just hit the bedroom and reached for the lube. When out on the lawn there arose such a cry, That I lost my boner and poor momma went dry. Up to the window I sprang like an elf, Tore back the shade while she played with herself. The moon on the crest of the snowman we'd built, Showed a broom up his ass, clean up to the hilt. When what to my wondering eyes should appear, But a rusty old sleigh and eight mangy reindeer. With a fat little driver half out of his sled, A sock in his ear, and a bra on his head. Sure as I'm speaking, he was as high as a kite, And he yelled to his team, but it didn't sound right. Whoa Shithead, whoa Asshole, whoa Stupid, whoa Putz, Either slow down this rig or I'll cut off your nuts. Look out for the lamp post, and don't hit the tree, Quit shaking the sleigh, 'cause I gotta go pee. They cleared the old lamp post, the tree got a rub, Just as Santa leaned out and threw up on my shrub. And then from the roof we heard such a clatter, As each little reindeer now emptied his bladder. I was donning my jacket to cover my ass, When down the chimney Santa came with a crash. His suit was all smelly with perfume galore, He looked like a bum and he smelled like a whore. "That was some brothel," he said with a smile, "The reindeer are pooped, and I'll just stay here awhile." He walked to the kitchen, himself poured a drink, Then whipped out his pecker and pissed in the sink. I started to laugh, my wife smiled with glee, The old boy was hung nearly down to his knee. Back in the den, Santa reached in his sack, But his toys were all gone, and some new things were packed. The first thing he found was a pair of false tits, The next was a handgun with a penis that spits. A box filled with condoms was Santa's next find, And a six pack of panties, the edible kind. A bra without nipples, a penis extension, And several other things that I shouldn't even mention. A fuck ring, a G-string, and all types of oil, A dildo so long, it lay in a coil. "This stuff ain't for kids, Mrs. Santa will shit. So I'll leave 'em here, and then I'll just split." He filled every stocking and then took his leave, With one tiny butt plug tucked under his sleeve. He sprang to his sleigh, but his feet were like lead, Thus he fell on his ass and broke wind instead. In time he was seated, took the reigns of his hitch, Saying, "Take me home Rudolph, this nights been a BITCH!" The sleigh was near gone when we heard Santa shout, "The best thing about sex is that it never wears out!" From tcmay at got.net Sun Dec 24 14:09:27 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:09:27 -0800 Subject: Dude! It's wired! In-Reply-To: <200012242102.QAA27249@divert.sendon.net> References: <200012242102.QAA27249@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: At 11:23 PM +0000 12/24/00, Steve Thompson wrote: >Just recently, I bought the current issue of Wired. I've not looked at the >magazine much since some time in it's second or third year of publication, and >of course now I remember why. > >Anyhow, as I was chuckling at the endless stream of articles and >advertisements >telling us how wonderful it will be when we can finally enjoy ballroom >dancing as we fly about between cities and countries in great big dirigibles, >I noticed a single paragraph in one article which brings to mind a question. >On Page 181, Bruce Sterling wrote, > > "I think the intermediating people running the means of > production need to be exterminated -- a lot of them are > basically war criminals. I want to empower designers. > I want them walking across the landscape like a colossus." > >I'd like to know if Mr. Sterling has eaten Mr. May's brain. I note >that I haven't >seen him posting here of late. I haven't been posting here a lot for various reasons. First, the quality of the responses has not been good. It seems repartee and tired Nazi vs. Stalinist debate is the norm, with Choatian physics and Choatian history filling in the gaps. Second, and perhaps related to the first point, a lot of folks have retreated to the safety of filtered lists, where Lewis and Perry can screen messages for them. (Though I have noticed that a lot of _political_ messages get cross-posted from Perrypunks, where they are not supposed to exist, over to Cypherpunks. So much for the safe haven of having list.monitors limiting "off-topic" discussion.) Third, "been there, done that." Most of the topics surfacing now have not new topics. Most topics were beaten to death by 1993. In fact, most of the tangentially-crypto stuff is actually _less_ interesting than the stuff in 1993 was. See the topics in 1992-1994 and compare them to the topics in 1998-2000. Fourth, as with my new .sig, the election has caused me to "move on," at least until the direction of things is determined. As for what Bruce says in the above quote, nothing different from what he's been saying for decades. He speaks of liquidating middlemen, I speak of liquidating tens of millions of welfare varmints, useless eaters, and politicians. And for this they call him a visionary and me a Nazi. Go figure. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From die at die.com Sun Dec 24 12:03:21 2000 From: die at die.com (Dave Emery) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:03:21 -0500 Subject: About Gilmore's letter on IBM&Intel push copy protection into ordinary disk drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001223190417.008478b0@pop.sprynet.com>; from honig@sprynet.com on Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 07:04:17PM -0800 References: <200012212116.NAA00368@toad.com> <200012212116.NAA00368@toad.com> <3.0.6.32.20001223190417.008478b0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <20001224150321.A24733@die.com> On Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 07:04:17PM -0800, David Honig wrote: > At 10:19 AM 12/22/00 -0500, Peter Wayner wrote: > >I don't see how they will be able to distinguish between the truth > >and a lie when a guy calls up and say, "uh, my hard disk crashed. I > >need to install it on a new machine." They either authorize it or > >they don't. In fact, they'll probably have to automate the process > >because it's so expensive to have an actual human on the other end. > > Just a historical anecdote. Back in the old days, software > could be linked to the unique ID on Sun motherboards. To move > software to a new machine, you called and maybe faxed something > signed (with a pen) to the effect that you weren't ripping them off. > > This was before the software-based floating licenses became > popular. > A note on this note - I was told back in that era by Sun field service people that the standard thing to do when a motherboard failed was to swap the ID prom from the old motherboard onto the new one, thus avoiding the whole license conversion problem in the first place (but of course also doing wonders for the ability to track specific pieces of hardware and document ECO levels and the like, since a significant number of motherboards had swapped ID proms in which all the other information in the prom didn't match the actual board). Unfortunately, if the secret disk serial number hashed with the authentication domain key to generate the actual encryption key for the data is not readable or writable by the user this trick will not work for restoring bad disks. And if it did, it is not clear that the overall secure disk system could serve its purpose of protecting copyright. > dh -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die at die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18 From iEloan2000 at cs.net Sun Dec 24 15:11:15 2000 From: iEloan2000 at cs.net (iEloan2000 at cs.net) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 15:11:15 Subject: margin Message-ID: <417.8587.894661@cs.net> Make a new years resolution to get ahead financially this year. Have you ever wondered if you can make money in the stock market. Let us send you a free video. Simple system explains how to get wealthy in the stock market. Do you know that MCI is at its low for the year. YES MCI the giant long distance company. Priceline $1 Apple $16 E-loan $1 Do you think MCI is going out of business. I dont think so! 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As a member you now have complete access to the Web's premier source for news and information -- free of charge. NYTimes.com not only provides you with in-depth coverage of events happening around the world but also with a wealth of additional features and services. The site is updated regularly throughout the day by New York Times reporters and editors to give you greater insight into events unfolding throughout the day. No matter what the hour, you can look to NYTimes.com for the most trustworthy coverage available and unique perspective you won't find anywhere else. Please feel free to explore the other areas of NYTimes.com. Here are some starting points you may find useful: ** Get NYTimes.com headlines e-mailed directly to you. Choose from the day's top stories, breaking news alerts and your favorite sections: http://email.nytimes.com/email/email.jsp?welcome ** Search and retrieve articles from The New York Times Archives back to 1996. 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Share your thoughts about the site with us by sending an e-mail to feedback at nytimes.com ************************************************************* Your account information is listed below for future reference: Your Member ID is cypherpunks591 You selected your password at registration. Your e-mail address is cypherpunks at toad.com If you did not authorize this registration, someone has mistakenly registered using your e-mail address. We regret the inconvenience; please see http://www.nytimes.com/subscribe/help/cancel.html for instructions. From smb at research.att.com Sun Dec 24 13:10:25 2000 From: smb at research.att.com (Steven M. Bellovin) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 16:10:25 -0500 Subject: About Gilmore's letter on IBM&Intel push copy protection into ordinary disk drives Message-ID: <20001224211026.397C135DC2@smb.research.att.com> In message <20001224150321.A24733 at die.com>, Dave Emery writes: > > > A note on this note - I was told back in that era by Sun field >service people that the standard thing to do when a motherboard failed >was to swap the ID prom from the old motherboard onto the new one, thus >avoiding the whole license conversion problem in the first place (but of >course also doing wonders for the ability to track specific pieces of >hardware and document ECO levels and the like, since a significant number >of motherboards had swapped ID proms in which all the other information >in the prom didn't match the actual board). "Standard"? It was more than that; it was the *right* thing to do. On a diskless workstation, there was no other identity to the machine; if you didn't swap the ID prom -- which was used for the low-order 24 bits of the Ethernet address -- your machine wouldn't receive the proper boot image, etc. Add to that the number of machines in the mid-to-late 80's that didn't have ARP, and it was utterly necessary. --Steve Bellovin From kneasi at quickstockpower.com Sun Dec 24 15:14:02 2000 From: kneasi at quickstockpower.com (kneasi at quickstockpower.com) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:14:02 -0500 Subject: How Do You Create Leads??????? Message-ID: <4bw5fx.46nato@mx08.quickstockpower.com> If you have a product or service that requires lead generation, you will want to know about our services! We are a professional commercial e-mail service that has been in business for over 6 years. We can help you reach more potential customers through e-mail. No doubt you've heard every horror story about UCE, but frankly it's not true. There is a very small element that does not want the Internet to be used for commercial purposes, but isn't that what the Internet really is? And it completely legal to send commercial e-mail. We do honor remove requests from people that do not want to receive commercial e-mail. In fact our remove list is over 6 million. By the way, our data base is 60 million strong. If you want target e-mailing we can do that too! We've mailed for hundreds of Fortune 500 companies over the last 6 years, and many of them you would recognize. Here are some of the advantages: No Printing Cost! No Handling (stuffing envelops)! No Postage! Cost Effective Too! We are looking for just 3 new customers !!!! For complete details, phone 248.736.3364 From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sun Dec 24 18:19:04 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:19:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dude! It's wired! In-Reply-To: from "Tim May" at Dec 24, 2000 02:09:27 PM Message-ID: <200012250219.eBP2J4q12705@artifact.psychedelic.net> Tim expounds: > I haven't been posting here a lot for various reasons. > First, the quality of the responses has not been good. It seems > repartee and tired Nazi vs. Stalinist debate is the norm, with > Choatian physics and Choatian history filling in the gaps. It's been a slow politics and cryptography year. The list is full of spam, and vandals keep subscribing it to other mailing lists. Perhaps next year will be better. I'm almost begining to feel that Cryptology has achieved the status of a "Mature Science." > Second, and perhaps related to the first point, a lot of folks have > retreated to the safety of filtered lists, where Lewis and Perry can > screen messages for them. I'm currently amusing myself on DetweilerPunks. Also known as Theory-Edge, moderated by Vladimir Z. Nuri. http://www.egroups.com/group/theory-edge, if anyone wants to visit. > Fourth, as with my new .sig, the election has caused me to "move on," > at least until the direction of things is determined. Yes, a tasteful .sig designed not to cause public alarm, until the Shrub Administration's interpretation of our Constitution is clarified. I suspect we are entering an era in which even vague hints concerning a sticky end for tyrants can get one arrested. > He speaks of liquidating middlemen, I speak of liquidating tens of > millions of welfare varmints, useless eaters, and politicians. > And for this they call him a visionary and me a Nazi. Go figure. You need to moderate your views on non-producing eaters in the same way you moderated your .sig file. A new Tim for a new decade. So, when's the next Jim Bell trial? Anyone know? -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Dec 24 20:05:45 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:05:45 -0800 Subject: About Gilmore's letter on IBM&Intel push copy protection into ordinary disk drives In-Reply-To: <20001224211026.397C135DC2@smb.research.att.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001224200545.00a86d70@idiom.com> At 04:10 PM 12/24/00 -0500, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: >"Standard"? It was more than that; it was the *right* thing to do. On >a diskless workstation, there was no other identity to the machine; if >you didn't swap the ID prom -- which was used for the low-order 24 bits >of the Ethernet address -- your machine wouldn't receive the proper >boot image, etc. Add to that the number of machines in the mid-to-late >80's that didn't have ARP, and it was utterly necessary. But it was only the right thing to do if your the spare machine was roughly identical to the dead machine. Fortunately, Sun operating systems are pretty good at guessing hardware, due to S-Bus self-identification and the relative consistency of hardware. With diskful machines, you sometimes had to worry about whether the spare machine had as much disk as the original, though diskless machines didn't have that problem. Sometimes you'd get into trouble because the spare machine had a wimpier graphics board than the dead machine, and the graphics configs might be stored in the copy of the program that was on the file server, but usually you were ok. You could also get into trouble if Box A (now deceased) had Program A, and Box B had Program B, so you couldn't move the prom from A into B without making it unable to run Program B. But of course, if you've got a $20,000 chip-design program, and $5000 Sun workstations, it's more cost-effective to keep spare workstations around than spare program licenses, and _much_ more cost-effective to keep spare disk drives. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Sun Dec 24 22:15:36 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 22:15:36 -0800 Subject: Evil Copy Protection vs. Good Crypto-Capable Objects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001224221536.00a8a560@idiom.com> Most of us agree that this technology is Nasty Copy Protection pushed by Nasty Software Hoarders opposed to Honest Open Source, and by Nasty Music Hoarders who want us to Pay Per View for music, videos, e-books, and other products that we've bought, using them technical workarounds for activities that would normally be covered by First Sale and Fair Use and only be covered by the limited protections of copyright, and they richly deserve to Die Like DIVX (remember DIVX?*) and get rejected by the market like Lotus Copy Protection. (*I'm told DIVX's cracked format has been recycled as a convenient tool for Napsterizing videos...) Much worse, these Mindshare Marketing Thugs are in league with the sleazy DMCA-abusers who got a law written badly enough that it not only directly confiscates the previous rights of information consumers but goes far beyond that to criminalize people who are engaged in the legitimate activity of seeing what it is they bought and using it in interesting ways. The technical side is bad enough, but left to itself, either Darwin would get them or they'd find a market that's willing to be couch-potato consumers we can sneer at, either of which are ok, while the legal side is outright evil. But what happens if we look at this from a cypherpunks viewpoint? Cypherpunks write code. Nasty MusicHoarderPunks can too. The right way to protect information isn't to write laws, which are ineffective against crackers (whether government or free-lance), usually contain loopholes for cops to abuse, and can be changed if the government wants to - it's to write code and algorithms and hardware designs that actually protect the information. That's what these guys are doing, and it's what we WANT them to do, though we'd rather have them operate a gift economy, the way the folk music profession did before it commercialized, and the church music and hacking professions. (I'm not counting the use of DMCA to criminalize working around bad software - that's still evil.) How do you build tools to protect information, at a level of granularity that someone who'd cracked root on a Unix box or bought or cracked User on a Windows box can't break into? You use crypto to encrypt data, with public-key algorithms to do appropriate parts in public, use objects that maintain their own data and keys, and maybe you build capability-based operating systems, or partition functions into separate devices like smartcards or intelligent peripherals to keep the private parts more isolated. If you want to build a For Your Ears Only secure telephone, it's much easier if you can ship an encrypted data stream that only the recipient's headphone can decrypt. And if you want a digital signature system that can't easily be forged by FBI spook who shoulder-surfs your passphrase, or want a digital payment system that can't easily be ripped off by some online store clerk, it's easier if you can use some hardware object in the process. To a large extent, the threat models are critical to your security - but if being overprotected doesn't interfere with regular use, and doesn't interfere with the other protection you're building, it's not a Bad Thing. Of course, it cuts two ways - if you're not a Good Guy building hardware protection against virus crackers, but an NSA Spook building cracking tools to workaround for the software protections, it's nice to get down and dirty in the hardware and hire Chip-R-Us to include an undocumented Export Chip Private Key instruction in addition to the Export Chip Public Key instruction... Music Hoarders have a somewhat harder problem, in that they want to copy-protect information while providing near-identical copies to large numbers of people, while you're more likely to want to provide your personal transaction information or private messages only to a small number of recipients - but you may still want some kind of watermarking to identify who sold your "private" information to somebody you didn't authorize. As long as watermarking isn't seriously obnoxious, the fact that different listeners hear slightly different versions isn't that bad - listeners at a concert also hear different versions depending on whether they're in the front row, the nosebleed seats, or the Phil Zone, as well as how hard they've been dancing, how bouncily the people in front are dancing, whether Jerry forgot some of the words or had a magical guitar night that reminds them of a previous concert, and how, umm, chemically enhanced they are :-) Somebody allegedly wrote to RAH: >Don't forget Intel and IBM are charter members of both these scuzzy >outfits. And somebody please tell me what good an encrypted hard >drive is gonna be when the key material has to pass through an untrusted >PC running a see-through OS such as Windows? If one is actually >trying to save the data _from_ the PC operator not _for_ him/her, one >needs a TCPA-like hardening. At least Intel and IBM must realize this Intel and IBM know that Windows isn't going to protect their data - if they want it protected, they'll have to work around it, using techniques like CPUs, speakers, and disk drives that share public keys and only pass encrypted data through the OS. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sun Dec 24 21:01:32 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 23:01:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Dude! It's wired! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > First, the quality of the responses has not been good. It seems > repartee and tired Nazi vs. Stalinist debate is the norm, with > Choatian physics and Choatian history filling in the gaps. What he means is he gets tired of having his bluff called. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From stevet at sendon.net Sun Dec 24 15:23:08 2000 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 23:23:08 +0000 Subject: Dude! It's wired! Message-ID: <200012242102.QAA27249@divert.sendon.net> Just recently, I bought the current issue of Wired. I've not looked at the magazine much since some time in it's second or third year of publication, and of course now I remember why. Anyhow, as I was chuckling at the endless stream of articles and advertisements telling us how wonderful it will be when we can finally enjoy ballroom dancing as we fly about between cities and countries in great big dirigibles, I noticed a single paragraph in one article which brings to mind a question. On Page 181, Bruce Sterling wrote, "I think the intermediating people running the means of production need to be exterminated -- a lot of them are basically war criminals. I want to empower designers. I want them walking across the landscape like a colossus." I'd like to know if Mr. Sterling has eaten Mr. May's brain. I note that I haven't seen him posting here of late. Regards, Steve -- Antidisintermediationalist and Posi-Trak advocate at large. From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Sun Dec 24 23:50:01 2000 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 23:50:01 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <200012191846.KAA29000@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <3A468A2E.14553.1B9FF569@localhost> auto58194 at hushmail.com wrote Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:15:09 -0500 (EST) > Raymond's pointed out that some gas plants normally idle are now running > full-time to meet demand. To me this reads the same as using idle plants > instead of building new ones. Perhaps not a bright move in terms of safety, > efficiency and reserve capacity, but nothing that should have changed natural > gas commitments. In my initial message I stated the current rise in natural gas prices are caused by multiple factors. Natural gas prices were too low in recent years and this caused a shortage in supply. Narural gas has gained in popularity with utility companies in recent years because it is clean (relatively) and it is cheaper and easier to implement natural gas burning technologies than other fuel source technologies, ie - coal which would be cheaper but more difficult to meet current emission standards and "current" public expectations. On top of these factors I stated the greater portion of the increase was created by un-expected demand in California. Another issue in this problem, as in this month and next, is low water levels in the northwest causing lower than expected power generating capacity. In the past natural gas power plants were viewed as temporay or part-time solutions as they are relatively cheap to construct. If you have a power plant you don't expect to use you don't commit to much of a supply as you don't expect to use the plant. At this time many auxiliary power plants in California and surrounding states are being utilitized to generate power for the California market. There was recently a federal mandate that power suppliers in neighbouring markets not refuse to provide power to California utilities. Coupled with the low water situation, and the resulting decrease in hydro generated power, the increased use of natural gas powered generating capacity would be expected to cause an increase in the price of a commodity in which the increase in demand was unexpected or exceeded supply. If a power generating utility had built new power plants and commited to a fuel supply (and the accompanying infrastructure) the likelihood of unexpected prices increases would be much lower. From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 25 00:02:46 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:02:46 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <3A468A2E.14553.1B9FF569@localhost> References: <3A468A2E.14553.1B9FF569@localhost> Message-ID: You don't get it, do you? At 11:50 PM -0800 12/24/00, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: > >was created by un-expected demand in California. Another issue >in this problem, as in this month and next, is low water levels in the >northwest causing lower than expected power generating capacity. Lost on your typically smug Canadian analysis has been any objective analysis of markets for power. Do you know, for example, that California as a state is a _net exporter_ of power to the Northwest and especially to Western Canada at certain times of the year? In the fall and winter, in fact, when hydroelectric generation rates in BC and Washington are reduced. In your kind of lingo, "British Columbia failed to build enough new plants." Markets are not simple. Prices rise, prices fall. To claim that California is now the primary cause of your higher heating costs, boo-hoo, is childishly naive. > >If a power generating utility had built new power plants and >commited to a fuel supply (and the accompanying infrastructure) the >likelihood of unexpected prices increases would be much lower. See above. Childishly naive. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Mon Dec 25 00:15:08 2000 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 00:15:08 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of CaliforniaLiberalism] In-Reply-To: <019901c068c6$c013cbb0$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: <3A469013.944.1BB6FBD3@localhost> "Me" wrote Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:47:18 -0500 > The politicians are the only electricity producers in British > Columbia. Almost true but not the complete story. While the provincially (state) owned utility BC Hydro owns most of the capacity there is an entity called East Kootenay Power which services a portion of the province (state). Unfortunately the politicians still control the power business in BC and have done everything in their power to discourage co- generation and other alternative suppliers. Fortunately there is no shortage of supply. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca "The Ultimate Enterprise Security Experts" http://www.fbn.bc.ca/sysecurt.html From Robtminow at aol.com Mon Dec 25 00:46:03 2000 From: Robtminow at aol.com (Robtminow at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 03:46:03 EST Subject: Martin Minow Message-ID: This is a generic email to a list of relatives, friends and people whose names I found at Martin's house or on his computer. I am Martin's brother, Bob. Martin died suddenly Thursday from arteriosclerotic heart disease. The family has decided to have Martin buried close to other family members in LA. Funeral services will be Thursday at 12:00 PM at Hillside Memorial Park and Mortuary, 6001 Centinela Ave. Los Angeles, CA 90045, (310) 641-0707 (near the 405 Freeway and Sepulveda Blvd., 10 minutes from LA Airport). Immediately following services, there will be a a gathering in my home, in Martin's memory. My home is approximately an hour from the cemetery. Directions will be provided. Please feel free to contact me for any reason at (714) 281-0403 or by email at robtminow at aol.com. Also, many of Martin's San Francisco area friends have expressed a desire to have a memorial service in the Bay area. This is expected to be planned sometime in the future. In lieu of flowers, donations may be sent to the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society, any Hospice Foundation of your choice (I am involved with the Cancer Support Foundation of Los Alamitos, California), Toys for Tots or any other group of your choice. I look forward to meeting many of you. I'm sending this out email as this is how my brother would have liked it. Thanks to all who have communicated their thoughts via the phone or email. With kind thoughts, Bob Minow 1071 S. Taylor Court Anaheim, CA 9808 --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From bear at sonic.net Mon Dec 25 09:25:37 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 09:25:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <3A468A2E.14553.1B9FF569@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >In my initial message I stated the current rise in natural gas prices >are caused by multiple factors. Natural gas prices were too low in >recent years and this caused a shortage in supply. Just an observation, but most of the specific causes of this crisis point strongly to one general cause -- ie, there are too many people in California. More than the local water supply can handle. More than power can be generated for locally (unless someone builds a nuke powerplant, and you can already hear the Nimby's screaming...). More than food can be grown for without exhausting water tables to irrigate the central valley. Another general cause is that most of the current houses are built stupid. In the 1940's and 1950's houses were built that were quite habitable without constant airconditioning. They had basement windows where air could be drawn in and air was cooled in the basement with scads of thermal contact with the cool earth. There were open airways that circulated air drawn up from the basement through the first and second floor, and windows in the second floor where heated air was allowed to escape. Many of them were made of adobe or other materials with great thermal inertia, which mediated the extremes of temperature. All of these are perfectly sound thermodynamic principles, which have been abandoned because wood-frame concrete slab houses are cheaper to build and home buyers haven't been thinking about the cost of cooling the damn things as part of the purchase price. If building codes were modified, or if contractors and developers had to bear the first ten years of utility costs out of house prices, we'd probably see a substantial reduction in the so-called "need" for power. Bear From info6 at quickstockpower.com Mon Dec 25 06:57:09 2000 From: info6 at quickstockpower.com (info6 at quickstockpower.com) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 09:57:09 -0500 Subject: PC USERS OPTIMIZE WINDOWS Message-ID: Dear Windows User, Now you can boost the reliability of ordinary Windows 3.x, 95 and 98 to nearly the level of Windows NT or 2000, Microsoft's professional and industrial version of Windows. 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To be removed from our mailing list, go to the Email-us page OR To be removed mailto:remove at www3.quickstockpower.com?Subject=REMOVE From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 25 10:41:06 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 10:41:06 -0800 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:25 AM -0800 12/25/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: > >Just an observation, but most of the specific causes of this crisis >point strongly to one general cause -- ie, there are too many people >in California. More than the local water supply can handle. More >than power can be generated for locally (unless someone builds a >nuke powerplant, and you can already hear the Nimby's screaming...). >More than food can be grown for without exhausting water tables to >irrigate the central valley. Not even _close_ to being true. Yes, there are many people. "Too many" is an esthetic judgment. The water coming off of the Sierras is more than enough for twice the current population, providing they all don't try to have large green grass yards (cf. xeriscaping). The market solution for water, as it is for power, computers, frisbees, and anything else, is to let the market price goods. If someone wants to pay $3000 a year to keep their lawn green, their choice. As for food production, food is fungible and is shipped where markets want it. Vastly more food, of certain types, is grown in the Central Valley, and in the Salinas Valley (near me), than is consumed locally. > >Another general cause is that most of the current houses are built >stupid. In the 1940's and 1950's houses were built that were quite >habitable without constant airconditioning. They had basement >windows where air could be drawn in and air was cooled in the >basement with scads of thermal contact with the cool earth. California houses have almost _never_ had basements. Check it out. Check the history of houses built throughout the state, going back a century or more. The main "reason" for basements is to put a foundation below the frost line. Mainly for structural reasons: a house built on top of the heave line is subject to thermal heave, cracking the foundation. (Houses can of course be built without basements or partial basements even in cold climes, via careful sinking of foundations. But digging out to below the frost line and then building on top of that was the most common approach.) John Young, as an architect, can no doubt say more about why basements are common in cold climes but much less common in temperate climes. (I lived in coasta France, on the Riviera, for a year. Virtually no houses had basements. Ditto for Italy. Ditto for Greece. Move north, however, and houses start to be built with basements.) By the way, most of the 34 million current California residents live in the coastal strip, from San Diego to LA to Santa Barbara to San Luis Obispo to San Jose to San Francisco and the other Bay Area cities. Most of them don't use air conditioning. (I lived for 5 years in San Diego--no A/C. Lived for 4 years in Santa Barbara--no A/C. Lived for 12 years in Santa Clara--A/C in one of my apartments, which I only used half a dozen times. Lived in Santa Cruz for 14 years--no A/C.) My siblings live in California: no A/C. I can't think of a single person I know who has air conditioning...they may exist, I just can't think of who they might be. >There >were open airways that circulated air drawn up from the basement >through the first and second floor, and windows in the second floor >where heated air was allowed to escape. Many of them were made of >adobe or other materials with great thermal inertia, which mediated >the extremes of temperature. Earth to Ray: Adobe and other thick-walled structures are "deprecated," as the current lingo would have it. I'll let you figure out why. >All of these are perfectly sound >thermodynamic principles, which have been abandoned because wood-frame >concrete slab houses are cheaper to build and home buyers haven't >been thinking about the cost of cooling the damn things as part >of the purchase price. If building codes were modified, or if >contractors and developers had to bear the first ten years of >utility costs out of house prices, we'd probably see a substantial >reduction in the so-called "need" for power. > > Bear Do you simply invent this stuff? Cypherpunks has become a dumping ground for half-baked social theorists. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 25 11:07:45 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:07:45 -0800 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:41 AM -0800 12/25/00, Tim May wrote: >At 9:25 AM -0800 12/25/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >> >>Another general cause is that most of the current houses are built >>stupid. In the 1940's and 1950's houses were built that were quite >>habitable without constant airconditioning. They had basement >>windows where air could be drawn in and air was cooled in the >>basement with scads of thermal contact with the cool earth. > >California houses have almost _never_ had basements. Check it out. >Check the history of houses built throughout the state, going back a >century or more. > >The main "reason" for basements is to put a foundation below the >frost line. Mainly for >(I lived for 5 years in San Diego--no A/C. Lived for 4 years in >Santa Barbara--no A/C. Lived for 12 years in Santa Clara--A/C in one >of my apartments, which I only used half a dozen times. Lived in >Santa Cruz for 14 years--no A/C.) And I should have pointed out that many of these places I lived in during the 50s, 60s, and 70s, HAD BEEN BUILT IN EARLIER DECADES, precisely the decades during which Ray assures us basements were the norm. Nope, no basements. No basement in the house I lived in in San Diego in the 1950s. Built on a slab. No air conditioning, either. No need. And the buildings I lived in during the 1970s had neither basements nor air conditioning. No need for either. Further, more and more Californians live in multi-story apartment buildings and condos. No basements, though underground parking garages are common. (No "natural cooling" effects, natch.) Where Ray gets the idea that houses in California used to commonly have basements--and "thick adobe walls"--is beyond me. They didn't, not counting certain old historical Spanish-era buildings which had thick walls (but almost never basements!). Office buildings typically have air conditioning, but this has to do with having hundreds or even thousands of people working in a sealed enviroment. Basements have nothing to do with this. The "solution" to "shortages" is, as with all things, market pricing. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From jya at pipeline.com Mon Dec 25 09:23:08 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 12:23:08 -0500 Subject: Underground Message-ID: <200012251726.MAA27531@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Here's an informative site on underground structures -- tunnels, military bases, caves, temples, unidentifiables -- and the technology, epistimology and religion of them: http://www.sauderzone.com/ubtlinks.htm Nearly all of the world's most secret (and threatening) technology and archives of information are located underground. The relations of secrets to the subterranean, and conversely, that of liberating thought to the sky, are perhaps not accidental. The US government is expected under the new administration to replace the UK government as the most secrecy-crazed. As a writer noted recently, this customarily happens at the peak of a nation's power when it becomes totally paranoid about pandemic threats, especially from within. The US Secretary of Defense said a while back that technology empowers the citizenry, business, allies and enemies equally to threaten US power and thus must be controlled. The USG aims to totally control, or at least surveil, all forms of communication, not only within the US but globally, in an attempt to foresee looming threats. Underground communication intercept facilities which do not tap into the atmosphere or land, but rather the extremely long-waves transmitted deep within the earth, are considered to be a prime tool of omnicient surveillance. The most heavily trafficked Web site of the holiday season is NORAD's tracking of Santa Claus -- last year some 50 million hits. Francisco Sierra, a Spanish professor of Information and Military Propaganda, writes that military spectaculars are devised to enrapture the mesmerized, consumer-ad besotted citizenry, to erase the border between war and peace, to expand the military doctrine to all aspects of culture, in order to justify programs of total domestic and global surveillance to assure national and supranational security. He views news coverage of the Gulf War and Yugoslavian Bombing as such real-time CNN-pleasing propaganda performances orchestrated as military parades. From njohnson at interl.net Mon Dec 25 14:04:29 2000 From: njohnson at interl.net (Neil Johnson) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 16:04:29 -0600 Subject: About Gilmore's letter on IBM&Intel push copy protection into ordinary disk drives References: <20001224211026.397C135DC2@smb.research.att.com> Message-ID: <000e01c06ebe$a9c9f340$0100a8c0@nandts> > In message <20001224150321.A24733 at die.com>, Dave Emery writes: > > > > > > A note on this note - I was told back in that era by Sun field > >service people that the standard thing to do when a motherboard failed > >was to swap the ID prom from the old motherboard onto the new one, thus > >avoiding the whole license conversion problem in the first place (but of > >course also doing wonders for the ability to track specific pieces of > >hardware and document ECO levels and the like, since a significant number > >of motherboards had swapped ID proms in which all the other information > >in the prom didn't match the actual board). > > "Standard"? It was more than that; it was the *right* thing to do. On > a diskless workstation, there was no other identity to the machine; if > you didn't swap the ID prom -- which was used for the low-order 24 bits > of the Ethernet address -- your machine wouldn't receive the proper > boot image, etc. Add to that the number of machines in the mid-to-late > 80's that didn't have ARP, and it was utterly necessary. > > > --Steve Bellovin Same was true of DEC workstations. The service tech would switch the proms. The board had it's own serial number label on the board so they could still keep track of it. From hahaha at sexyfun.net Mon Dec 25 14:52:35 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 17:52:35 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: joke.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Mon Dec 25 15:09:05 2000 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 18:09:05 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Message-ID: Antigen for Exchange found joke.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From jon at callas.org Mon Dec 25 18:33:47 2000 From: jon at callas.org (Jon Callas) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 18:33:47 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Martin Minow Message-ID: From sespa at sesli.com.tr Mon Dec 25 08:54:41 2000 From: sespa at sesli.com.tr (SESLI BLANKET / BATTANIYE) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 18:54:41 +0200 Subject: Happy New Year Message-ID: <200012251839.KAA01724@cyberpass.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 2243 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Mon Dec 25 16:16:44 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 19:16:44 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C35@exchange.sfocorp.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found joke.exe infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 672 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 25 19:53:20 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 19:53:20 -0800 Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Re: Dude! It's wired!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:50 PM -0500 12/25/00, dmolnar wrote: >On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > >> Perhaps next year will be better. I'm almost begining to feel >> that Cryptology has achieved the status of a "Mature Science." > >It's my impression that mature sciences don't have the same kind of >foundational or engineering problems cryptography does. We still see >surprises about what a "definition of security" should be, even in the >public-key setting where people have investigated such things for nearly >20 years. Plus even when we figure that out, we'll still have to deal with >the fact that the models used in theoretical crypto don't deal with some >of the attacks possible in real life -- timing and power analysis come to >mind. As does the van Someren and Shamir trick for finding keys because >they look "too random." Parts of cryptology are in math, e.g., number theory. And parts are in economics. And parts are even in human psychology. Some of the foundations are, of course, "mature"...and not very exciting. The core of mathematical crypto is hardly frontier mathematics. (Yeah, I suppose Dave and Eric and a few others could make a case that there's some connection with the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, stuff about elliptic functions, etc. But we all know that such connections are tenuous. Most of crypto still is built around good old number theory, basically what has been known for dozens of years, even centuries. Euler would not have had a problem understanding RSA.) The "far out" stuff of reputations, multi-player games, digital money, etc., is much less-grounded in theory. More interdisciplinary, more "fuzzy," more prone to hand-waving. Doesn't mean this this isn't the interesting area, just means it's not as "foundational" as math areas are. Reductionists who seek the rigor of a pure science often end up throwing out what's interesting. As many of us have noted over the years, and as Austin Hill recently noted vis-a-vis the ZKS technologies, the status of these things is roughly where mathematical ciphers ("pure crypto") were in, say, 1970. Some interest, some popularizations, some secret work at NSA and related places, but no serious academic coverage. By academic coverage I mean researchers studying weaknesses in various kinds of data havens, digital currencies, reputation systems, etc., in the same way that the "Crypto Conference" folks looked at various ciphers. (And specific digital currency systems, for example.) Crypto systems, using a mix of crypto tools, is only slowly taking off. In fact, the focus keeps moving back to simple encryption, depressingly enough! Someday, more complex systems will be actually deployed. An interesting way to look at such systems is to to think back to many examples of engineered systems. Steel buildings, for example. The "basic science" of steel, its strength and properties, was basically well-understood a century ago. A bit of later science, through understanding of things like martensitic transitioins and dislocations, etc., happened. But most of foundational science was laid a long time ago. And yet buildings collapsed, engineered figured out new ways to bolt together beams, and taller and taller buildings were erected. Crypto systems will be a lot like that. (And, as I have been saying for close to 10 years, the insurance industry will be a driver of new approaches. Newer safes were bought not because store and bank owners were "educated" about security (the precise analogy to security today), but because insurance premiums were lessened with better safes. Discounted present value, DPV, speaks louder than all of the moralizing and lecturing.) > >It may be true that this year was a lull in "interesting" cryptographic >research (I don't know if that's quite true), but it doesn't seem to be >because too many problems are solved. Rather, there are lots of open >problems left which no one seems to know how to solve... I go further: the academic community is largely uninterested in, or unmotivated by, or unable to get funding for, the "Cypherpunkish" areas. Possibly this is because most fields are not interdisciplinary, so a researcher is more likely to study a pure math approach than to mix in economic/market issues. (E.g., our "Hayekian" sensibilities make a lot of sense to nearly every smart person who gets exposed to them, but such approaches smack of voodoo economics, to coin a phrase, to many pure researchers. I cite this is as just one facet of the issue. And, by the way, the Hayekian approach fits right in with "building skyscrapers," though not for the writing of papers about dislocation propagation in high-tensile steels.) In other words, it's time to get crypto out of the math and computer science departments and put it in the engineering departments where it belongs. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From aethr at earthlink.net Mon Dec 25 18:25:18 2000 From: aethr at earthlink.net (Allen Ethridge) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 20:25:18 -0600 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001225202520-r01010600-b1c7e3c3@209.245.225.29> On 12/25/00 at 11:07 AM, tcmay at got.net (Tim May) wrote: > Nope, no basements. No basement in the house I lived in in San Diego > in the 1950s. Built on a slab. No air conditioning, either. No need. You mean there's someplace in San Diego that's flat enough to lay a slab? > The "solution" to "shortages" is, as with all things, market pricing. You have to have a market first. How do you go about establishing that? And wouldn't a fair market price assume a reasonable supply? From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 25 17:51:27 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 20:51:27 -0500 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001225174437.0081b470@pop.sprynet.com> At 01:42 PM 12/25/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >California houses have almost _never_ had basements. Check it out. A Calif native friend of mine had griped to me (years ago) that the Princeton, NJ based SATs were biassed: they had an analogy like furnace:basement::stove:______ and my SoCal friend complained that furnaces are in walls or maybe an attic, and he had never seen a basement. Coming from places where triple-paned glass is the norm, I found this absurd, but soon realized it was likely. Tens of millions of Californians have *no idea* of the many-armed oil-fed beast that lives in basements.. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Mon Dec 25 18:14:01 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:14:01 -0500 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001225174437.0081b470@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Dec 2000, David Honig wrote: > but soon realized it was likely. Tens of millions of Californians > have *no idea* of the many-armed oil-fed beast that lives in basements.. They've never read a story which mentions such a thing? -David From tcmay at got.net Mon Dec 25 18:17:02 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:17:02 -0500 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001225174437.0081b470@pop.sprynet.com> References: Message-ID: At 8:51 PM -0500 12/25/00, David Honig wrote: >At 01:42 PM 12/25/00 -0500, Tim May wrote: >>California houses have almost _never_ had basements. Check it out. > >A Calif native friend of mine had griped to me (years ago) >that the Princeton, NJ based SATs were biassed: they had >an analogy like > > furnace:basement::stove:______ > >and my SoCal friend complained that furnaces are in walls or maybe an >attic, and he had never seen a basement. Coming from places >where triple-paned glass is the norm, I found this absurd, >but soon realized it was likely. Tens of millions of Californians >have *no idea* of the many-armed oil-fed beast that lives in basements.. > Culturocentrism at work. A: champagne:waterford::brie:_____ vs. B: colt45: crack hoe::a baseball bat:_____ Correct answer to A: "If one refers to the crystal, the answer is surely c), but if one refers the cracker, one must choose b), but only, of course, if the brie is suitably soft." Correct answer to B: "Whatha _fuck_!!" And then there's clipper:spies::toilet plunger:_____ and shakespeare:borg::locutus:_____ --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From no1special at turbomail.tv Mon Dec 25 18:25:33 2000 From: no1special at turbomail.tv (no1special) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:25:33 -0500 Subject: Feasibility -- anti copy prot. Message-ID: <200012260225.VAA21036@domains.invweb.net> Any data coming into a drive has to pass through the device drivers of the operating system running the computer. It should therefore be quite possible to construct a driver shim which reports any answers desired to the higher software layers. Since the documentation of the system is public (the T.13 group I believe), this is not anywhere near as complex as some pieces of software. Ex: programs like VMWare virtualize all the hardware - virtualizing only part of the hardware shouldn't be too bad.... no1special ****** Free web-based/POP3 mail from turbosport.com, turbomail.tv, mailplanet.net, and webmailcity.com ****** To report SPAM mail please send an e-mail to spam at turbosport.com. From mclow at owl.csusm.edu Mon Dec 25 21:33:39 2000 From: mclow at owl.csusm.edu (Marshall Clow) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:33:39 -0800 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: <20001225202520-r01010600-b1c7e3c3@209.245.225.29> References: <20001225202520-r01010600-b1c7e3c3@209.245.225.29> Message-ID: >On 12/25/00 at 11:07 AM, tcmay at got.net (Tim May) wrote: > >> Nope, no basements. No basement in the house I lived in in San Diego > > in the 1950s. Built on a slab. No air conditioning, either. No need. > >You mean there's someplace in San Diego that's flat enough to lay a slab? Lots of places. > > The "solution" to "shortages" is, as with all things, market pricing. > >You have to have a market first. How do you go about establishing that? And >wouldn't a fair market price assume a reasonable supply? Why should it? Is there a "reasonable supply" of original Van Goghs? Nevertheless, there is a market for them. If there are shortages, then the price will go up. If it goes up enough, then people will look for ways to produce more. [ In the art market, these are frequently forgeries, but for water, that's not a problem. ] -- -- Marshall "The era of big government is over." Bill Clinton, State of the Union Address, January 23, 1996 Marshall Clow MusicMatch From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Mon Dec 25 18:50:19 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:50:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dude! It's wired! In-Reply-To: <200012250219.eBP2J4q12705@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > Perhaps next year will be better. I'm almost begining to feel > that Cryptology has achieved the status of a "Mature Science." It's my impression that mature sciences don't have the same kind of foundational or engineering problems cryptography does. We still see surprises about what a "definition of security" should be, even in the public-key setting where people have investigated such things for nearly 20 years. Plus even when we figure that out, we'll still have to deal with the fact that the models used in theoretical crypto don't deal with some of the attacks possible in real life -- timing and power analysis come to mind. As does the van Someren and Shamir trick for finding keys because they look "too random." To say nothing of the nasty fact that passphrases, and therefore keys based on them, aren't random at all. Which does not play nice with models which assume keys are picked randomly. It may be true that this year was a lull in "interesting" cryptographic research (I don't know if that's quite true), but it doesn't seem to be because too many problems are solved. Rather, there are lots of open problems left which no one seems to know how to solve... -David From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 25 19:39:46 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 22:39:46 -0500 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20001225174437.0081b470@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001225192926.008522e0@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:14 PM 12/25/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote: > > >On Mon, 25 Dec 2000, David Honig wrote: > >> but soon realized it was likely. Tens of millions of Californians >> have *no idea* of the many-armed oil-fed beast that lives in basements.. > >They've never read a story which mentions such a thing? > >-David "Read" ??? From honig at sprynet.com Mon Dec 25 19:39:47 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 22:39:47 -0500 Subject: Dude! It's wired! In-Reply-To: References: <200012250219.eBP2J4q12705@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001225193732.0081b620@pop.sprynet.com> At 09:55 PM 12/25/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote: > > >On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > >> Perhaps next year will be better. I'm almost begining to feel >> that Cryptology has achieved the status of a "Mature Science." > >It's my impression that mature sciences don't have the same kind of >foundational or engineering problems cryptography does. Infosec is essentially a branch of 'safety systems' (see Leveson, et al), where you also look at all possible consequences of failure. The same problem ---the strength of the system is the strength of the weakest element--- dominates both arts. 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Shipping Name______________________________________________ Shipping Address___________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ Shipping City,State,Zip ___________________________________________________________ Country ___________________________________________________________ Email Address & Phone Number(Please Write Neat) From bear at sonic.net Tue Dec 26 01:01:08 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:01:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: >At 9:25 AM -0800 12/25/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: >>Another general cause is that most of the current houses are built >>stupid. In the 1940's and 1950's houses were built that were quite >>habitable without constant airconditioning. They had basement >>windows where air could be drawn in and air was cooled in the >>basement with scads of thermal contact with the cool earth. > >California houses have almost _never_ had basements. Check it out. >Check the history of houses built throughout the state, going back a >century or more. You're right, that was boneheaded. AC isn't the biggest use of power in California -- that's just a prejudice I brought in from elsewhere. Crud. Okay, from now on I'll try to stay more on topic. Bear From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 26 01:55:46 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:55:46 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Martin Minow died Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001226015546.00a8e320@idiom.com> --- begin forwarded text From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Mon Dec 25 22:56:18 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:56:18 -0500 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001225192926.008522e0@pop.sprynet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Dec 2000, David Honig wrote: > >> but soon realized it was likely. Tens of millions of Californians > >> have *no idea* of the many-armed oil-fed beast that lives in basements.. > > > >They've never read a story which mentions such a thing? > > > >-David > > "Read" ??? Oh, right. Maybe the SAT is biased towards people who read. Since I read, that doesn't seem so bad to me. -David (exulting in the logic of ... oh, wait) From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 26 02:13:23 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:13:23 -0800 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001226021323.00aa2250@idiom.com> >>Another general cause is that most of the current houses are built >>stupid. In the 1940's and 1950's houses were built that were quite >>habitable without constant airconditioning. They had basement My condo is quite habitable without air conditioning. It's got an air conditioner on the lower floor we've never turned on (stupid location - if it were in the upstairs bedroom we'd use it a couple nights a year.) High ceilings. Electric heat. I'm spending far more to heat the place in a Silicon Valley winter, with temperatures seldom below 10C and almost never below 5C, than I ever spent in New Jersey, where they have real winters (not real snowy winters, but below freezing for a few months.) It was built back in the 70s, when we should have stopped pretending that electricity was too cheap to meter. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 26 02:16:10 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:16:10 -0800 Subject: About Gilmore's letter on IBM&Intel push copy protection into ordinary disk drives In-Reply-To: <000e01c06ebe$a9c9f340$0100a8c0@nandts> References: <20001224211026.397C135DC2@smb.research.att.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001226021610.00aa0c10@idiom.com> At 04:04 PM 12/25/00 -0600, Neil Johnson wrote: >Same was true of DEC workstations. The service tech would switch the proms. >The board had it's own serial number label on the board so they could still >keep track of it. As opposed to DEC VAXen, where the tech would reformat the disks, whether they needed them or not, and occasionally replace the bad disk controller with another bad disk controller :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Mon Dec 25 23:42:47 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 02:42:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Re: Dude! It's wired!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Some of the foundations are, of course, "mature"...and not very > exciting. The core of mathematical crypto is hardly frontier > mathematics. (Yeah, I suppose Dave and Eric and a few others could > make a case that there's some connection with the proof of Fermat's > Last Theorem, stuff about elliptic functions, etc. But we all know I don't think I'd go that far. As far as I'm concerned, elliptic curves are just another group to do Diffie-Hellman & friends in. What I'd call the "core" of mathematical crypto is the work that Goldreich, Goldwasser, Micali, et. al. have been doing over the past fifteen years -- trying to rough out just what kind of assumptions are necessary and sufficient to give us the kind of cryptography we want. That being said, almost none of it works without those pesky one-way functions. or trapdoor one-way functions. and we have too few examples of either. > that such connections are tenuous. Most of crypto still is built > around good old number theory, basically what has been known for > dozens of years, even centuries. Euler would not have had a problem > understanding RSA.) That's true, and in some sense it's a good thing - we have some confidence that these problems are hard because "Euler worked on them." (On the other hand, Euler didn't have the ability to experiment today's mathematicians do). In another sense, it's a bad thing, because the number of one-way functions we have is so small. To say nothing of trapdoor one-way functions... > > The "far out" stuff of reputations, multi-player games, digital > money, etc., is much less-grounded in theory. More interdisciplinary, > more "fuzzy," more prone to hand-waving. Doesn't mean this this isn't > the interesting area, just means it's not as "foundational" as math > areas are. Reductionists who seek the rigor of a pure science often > end up throwing out what's interesting. So I have noticed. (and so I have to caution myself against every day). > By academic coverage I mean researchers studying weaknesses in > various kinds of data havens, digital currencies, reputation systems, > etc., in the same way that the "Crypto Conference" folks looked at > various ciphers. (And specific digital currency systems, for example.) Reminds me of the reaction I got when I asked some friends about doing a term project on mix-nets. "So, has there been any recent academic work on this?" There's some hope. There was a workshop on "Design Issues in Anonymity and Unobservability" this past summer which brought people together to talk about these issues. The Info Hiding Workshops are still going strong. With luck, this year's IHW may have a paper on reputations in it... This year's ACM CCS conference had two papers of special interest. The "Hordes" paper, _A protocol for anonymous communication over the Internet_ by Clay Shields and Brian Neil Levine, gives a definition of anonymity which seems convincing. Then the paper by Franklin and Durfee on "Distribution Chain Security" discusses the problems of dealing with contracts in a distribution chain. They have to balance the rights of buyers, sellers, and various middlemen - and develop some cute cryptographic tricks to do it. Obfuscated contracts, zero-knowledge proofs, and special "contract certifiers" make an appearance. It wouldn't surprise me if this ended up having application beyond the content distribution network scenario they propose. > > Crypto systems, using a mix of crypto tools, is only slowly taking > off. In fact, the focus keeps moving back to simple encryption, > depressingly enough! > Depressingly enough, we keep finding that the focus *needs* to move back to simple encryption. Birgit Pfitzmann published a paper in the 1980s on "How To Break the Direct-RSA Implementation of MIXes." Today, nearly fifteen years later, we still don't know "really" what we need from an encryption system for MIXes; David Hopwood has some good thoughts, but we're not done yet. On the other hand, we can oppose this to the fact that we have a bunch of remailers, and they seem to work. They may be unreliable, but no one seems to have used padding flaws to break a remailer, as far as we know. > (And, as I have been saying for close to 10 years, the insurance > industry will be a driver of new approaches. Newer safes were bought > not because store and bank owners were "educated" about security (the > precise analogy to security today), but because insurance premiums > were lessened with better safes. Discounted present value, DPV, > speaks louder than all of the moralizing and lecturing.) This may have to wait until liability issues in general for software are straightened out, won't it? More than that, if the "tragedy of the commons" really happens for Gnutella and Napster and friends, then people will look for ways to avert it. Maybe it won't happen ("The Cornucopia of the Commons"), but if it does, reputation systems might see some sudden interest. > > In other words, it's time to get crypto out of the math and computer > science departments and put it in the engineering departments where > it belongs. Actually, to read this message, it sounds more like it should be part of the economics department! There are people working on that. Joan Feigenbaum came to speak at Harvard last spring on her recent work on fair pricing for multicast trees; this was a case of finding the best algorithm in the face of an "adversary" model specified by economic considerations. Noam Nisan has a list of some academic research groups also working on this at http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~noam/econcsgrps.html I suppose the next step is to apply this to cypherpunkish considerations... -David From nobody at dizum.com Tue Dec 26 00:20:37 2000 From: nobody at dizum.com (Nomen Nescio) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 03:20:37 -0500 Subject: U.S. Draws Attention to Information Warfare Threat Message-ID: <3fd220f3745e9049e7b5c399b55bee27@dizum.com> By REUTERS Filed at 0:56 a.m. ET WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A year after the Y2K bug, U.S. officials are once again warning about perceived dangers to a United States increasingly stitched together by bits and bytes of computer code. This time, a key stated fear is information warfare, or sneak electronic assaults that could crash power grids, financial networks, transportation systems and telecommunications, among other vital services. National security aides trace the threat to hostile or potentially hostile governments as well as drug lords, criminal cartels and increasingly computer savvy guerrilla groups. Some of these organizations ``are doing reconnaissance today on our networks, mapping them, looking for vulnerabilities,'' Richard Clarke, President Clinton's top aide for infrastructure protection and counterterrorism, told a Microsoft Corp. digital security conference in Redmond, Washington, on Dec. 8. Cyberblitzes like those that briefly knocked out major Web sites in February -- including Yahoo! Inc.'s Internet gateway, eBay Inc.'s auction service and Amazon.com Inc.'s retail site -- could easily be copied on a larger scale, said Clarke, a staff member of the White House National Security Council. ``Criminals, crackers, foreign governments -- when the new president reads that intelligence briefing, he had better move pretty fast,'' he added. Such warnings are not new from Clarke, who has frequently conjured up a ``digital Pearl Harbor,'' a reference to the Japanese surprise attack that threw the United States into the Second World War. But Clarke and other U.S. officials seem to be stepping up a public awareness campaign, spurred by the spread of information technology, growing knowledge of malicious computer code and ever greater U.S. reliance on networked systems. CYBERINICIDENT GROUP MEETS On Dec. 18, the National Security Council held the first meeting of the recently formed Cyberincident Steering Group, aimed at fostering cooperation between the private sector and government to secure systems from domestic and international cyberattack. ``This meeting was an important first step in building computer security programs for the nation,'' said Peter Tippett, chief technologist for TruSecure Corp., a leading computer security company. Among topics discussed were the creation of a rapid response system and communications between industry and government, said David Perry, the public education director for Trend Micro Inc., a maker of anti-virus products, and the co-chairman of the steering group. The U.S. intelligence community voiced its concerns last week with the release of ``Global Trends 2015,'' a wide-ranging analysis by the CIA, its sister U.S. spy shops and outside experts. The report said foes of a militarily dominant United States, rather than challenging it head-on, would seek to target an Achilles' heel in cyberspace or threaten the use of the deadliest chemical, nuclear or biological weapons. ``Such asymmetric approaches -- whether undertaken by states or nonstate actors -- will become the dominant characteristic of most threats to the U.S. homeland,'' the report, released by the National Intelligence Council, said. Over time, attacks are increasingly likely to be fired off through computer networks rather than conventional arms, as ``the skill of U.S. adversaries in employing them'' evolves, the assessment said. FBI FINGERS CHINA It said many unnamed countries were developing such technologies to complicate what the U.S. military refers to as ''power projection'' and to undermine morale at home. The interagency, FBI-led National Infrastructure Protection Center uses a slide depicting China's Great Wall in its standard presentation on cyberthreats, along with a quote from Sun Zi, author of a treatise on war in about 350 B.C. ``Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence,'' the FBI's slide quotes the ancient Chinese strategist as saying. In a telltale update, the slide includes a 1999 quote from a Chinese newspaper referring to information warfare as a means of achieving strategic victory over a militarily superior enemy. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Tue Dec 26 02:29:42 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 05:29:42 -0500 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001225192926.008522e0@pop.sprynet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001226022928.009b2960@idiom.com> >>> but soon realized it was likely. Tens of millions of Californians >>> have *no idea* of the many-armed oil-fed beast that lives in basements.. >> >>They've never read a story which mentions such a thing? > >"Read" ??? Cthulhu. Gravity-hot-air heating systems. Steam radiators. In the basement, no one can hear you scream... Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From stevet at sendon.net Mon Dec 25 23:59:10 2000 From: stevet at sendon.net (Steve Thompson) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 07:59:10 +0000 Subject: Dude! It's wired! In-Reply-To: References: <200012242102.QAA27249@divert.sendon.net> Message-ID: <200012260538.AAA17423@divert.sendon.net> Quoting Tim May (tcmay at got.net): > I haven't been posting here a lot for various reasons. That's your business. I just thought the meme sighting was funny. > First, the quality of the responses has not been good. It seems > repartee and tired Nazi vs. Stalinist debate is the norm, with > Choatian physics and Choatian history filling in the gaps. I don't quite know what to say to that. Perhaps collective ennui (or senility) has set upon most USENET denizens. Odd that. Personally, I would have thought that name-calling would have lost its novelty after a few years. > Second, and perhaps related to the first point, a lot of folks have > retreated to the safety of filtered lists, where Lewis and Perry can > screen messages for them. (Though I have noticed that a lot of > _political_ messages get cross-posted from Perrypunks, where they are > not supposed to exist, over to Cypherpunks. So much for the safe > haven of having list.monitors limiting "off-topic" discussion.) They should know better. I recall some of the uproar about the Cypherpunks moderation experiment. > Third, "been there, done that." Most of the topics surfacing now have > not new topics. Most topics were beaten to death by 1993. In fact, > most of the tangentially-crypto stuff is actually _less_ interesting > than the stuff in 1993 was. See the topics in 1992-1994 and compare > them to the topics in 1998-2000. You're quite correct. While I haven't had the time to actually read more than a few messages from those days, it's obvious that the then fresh speculations have become today's old news. Now, those with the skills and resources are busy planning and implementing that which they see will be profitable within their planning horizons. Few would be so short-sighted as to talk about their work when it might hurt their income or revenue potential. So, we wait for product releases, legislation initiatives, etc. > Fourth, as with my new .sig, the election has caused me to "move on," > at least until the direction of things is determined. Sure. It looks like most people (myself included) are waiting to see what happens so they can amend their plans accordingly. What else is there to do? > As for what Bruce says in the above quote, nothing different from > what he's been saying for decades. > He speaks of liquidating middlemen, I speak of liquidating tens of > millions of welfare varmints, useless eaters, and politicians. Despite the fact that I disagree strongly with wholesale `liquidation', I at least respect your candour -- and while I'd love to argue this point with you, that, too, has been done to death. However, I've at least got an incentive to stay off the welfare rolls. > And for this they call him a visionary and me a Nazi. Go figure. As they say, these things happen. If I have anything useful to contribute to future discussions, I'll do so. If not, I'll just go back to lurking while I work on my own projects, education and career, such as it is. Regards, Steve -- Antidisintermediationalist and Posi-Trak advocate at large. From conset06 at conbr.jnj.com Tue Dec 26 05:14:27 2000 From: conset06 at conbr.jnj.com (ANALISTAS_ONSET CONTR [CONBR]) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 08:14:27 -0500 Subject: Turbo C Message-ID: Hi there, I am looking for the software Turbo C from Borland and I never found. So I am sorry to ask that to you, but could you send the turbo C from e-mail to me ? I will really aprecciate if it is possible. 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Shipping Name______________________________________________ Shipping Address___________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ Shipping City,State,Zip ___________________________________________________________ Country ___________________________________________________________ Email Address & Phone Number(Please Write Neat) From tcmay at got.net Tue Dec 26 10:38:36 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 10:38:36 -0800 Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Re: Dude! It's wired!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:42 AM -0500 12/26/00, dmolnar wrote: >On Mon, 25 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > >> Some of the foundations are, of course, "mature"...and not very >> exciting. The core of mathematical crypto is hardly frontier >> mathematics. (Yeah, I suppose Dave and Eric and a few others could >> make a case that there's some connection with the proof of Fermat's >> Last Theorem, stuff about elliptic functions, etc. But we all know > >I don't think I'd go that far. As far as I'm concerned, elliptic curves >are just another group to do Diffie-Hellman & friends in. What I'd call >the "core" of mathematical crypto is the work that Goldreich, Goldwasser, >Micali, et. al. have been doing over the past fifteen years -- trying to >rough out just what kind of assumptions are necessary and sufficient to >give us the kind of cryptography we want. Has there really been much progress in the last ten years? I remember the flurry of ground-breaking work in the mid-80s, and it was much in the air at the first "Crypto Conference" I attended in 1988 (also the last such conference I attended, for various reasons). Something I expected to have happened long ago was the encapsulization of these protocols into building blocks into libraries/classes/reusable objects that could be bolted together by those building systems. ("Let's take EncryptStream and throw in EscrowService and then add ObliviousTransfer..."). This is partly what I mean by "devolving back to basic ciphers." It seems that when all is said is done, the only real "core module" we have is basic encryption. And even that is not treated as a module (yeah, I know that RSA is only recently unencumbered by patents). Some stuff with signatures, too, but basically very similar. In short, the world doesn't look very different than it did in 1990. The Web is different, but not in how users send messages and files back and forth. > >Depressingly enough, we keep finding that the focus *needs* to move back >to simple encryption. Birgit Pfitzmann published a paper in the 1980s on >"How To Break the Direct-RSA Implementation of MIXes." Today, nearly >fifteen years later, we still don't know "really" what we need from >an encryption system for MIXes; David Hopwood has some good thoughts, >but we're not done yet. > >On the other hand, we can oppose this to the fact that we have a bunch of >remailers, and they seem to work. They may be unreliable, but no one seems >to have used padding flaws to break a remailer, as far as we know. Yes, and those remailers are not much different than what we specc'ed out at the very first Cypherpunks meeting. That they work as well as they do relates to the economics point. A digression: One of the conventional models for a cryptographic attack is that an attacker gets to take a problem back to his lab and torture it to death, i.e., throw as much computer power against a cipher as he wishes. This is a reasonable model for ciphers. However, mix-nets and such need to have some economic considerations. It costs money and effort to subvert certain nodes and alter message padding, times of sending, etc. An attack on a mix-net is not the same as taking the whole net back into NSA basements and proceeding to diddle it to death. Chaum, Pfitzman, et. al. of course refer to n-out-of-m sorts of collaborations, but left unsaid is the cost of such collaborations. A start, but missing a lot. That such a simple implementation of Chaum's mix-net (it had to be simple, as I was the one who specc'ed out most of the features a remailer network needed to have, and Eric Hughes implemented some of them in Perl, then Hal Finney added PGP a few weeks later) has not had a known major attack is a tribute to the difficulty in actually subverting enough nodes in a mix-net. (Nodes in different countries, nodes operated more-or-less on automatic pilot, nodes which mail to _themselves_, nodes which are "middleman only," etc.) Crypto does encompass the idea of a "work factor," of course. Usually expressed as MIPS-years or somesuch. This needs to be extended in some rough way to include the costs of soliciting cooperation or collusion, etc. Without such inputs, how could a heterogeneous mix of remailers be analyzed? > > > (And, as I have been saying for close to 10 years, the >insurance >> industry will be a driver of new approaches. Newer safes were bought >> not because store and bank owners were "educated" about security (the >> precise analogy to security today), but because insurance premiums >> were lessened with better safes. Discounted present value, DPV, > > speaks louder than all of the moralizing and lecturing.) > >This may have to wait until liability issues in general for software are >straightened out, won't it? It could happen absent any action on the legal front. Pure anarcho-capitalism, a la the Law Merchant (law of the seas, with no nation having legal jurisdiction). Lloyds of London was underwriting shipping before there was much concern about international legal dispute resolution. Computer security and information theft is not the same thing as ships going down, so the evolution will be different. But, no, I don't think such systems will have to wait until liability issues are resolved. > > > In other words, it's time to get crypto out of the math and computer >> science departments and put it in the engineering departments where >> it belongs. > >Actually, to read this message, it sounds more like it should be part of >the economics department! There are people working on that. Joan >Feigenbaum came to speak at Harvard last spring on her recent work on fair >pricing for multicast trees; this was a case of finding the best algorithm >in the face of an "adversary" model specified by economic considerations. Indeed, I cited economics in a major way. Hal Varian at Berkeley is also interested in such issues, and a former Cypherpunks list member, Robin Hanson, got his Ph.D. at Caltech on these kinds of issues. (Robin is the main "idea futures" guy.) One key issue is that not a lot of econ folks are good at crypto-type protocols, and vice versa. Different departments, different standards for advancement and academic fame. But I already alluded to this, so no need to expand on this here. Multi-agent systems, evolutionary game theory, and combinatorial game theory are some of the other areas I think are critical. Ecologies of agents interacting with each other via various protocols for identity, values of goods traded, pricing, auctions, escrows, etc. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From sunder at sunder.net Tue Dec 26 08:28:08 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 11:28:08 -0500 Subject: About Gilmore's letter on IBM&Intel push copyprotection into ordinary disk drives References: <200012212116.NAA00368@toad.com> Message-ID: <3A48C718.FDC27527@sunder.net> Peter Wayner wrote: > But I was quite worried until I began to see the dangers for IBM and > Intel in the scheme. This is not an easy play for them because it > threatens much of the entire industry in these ways: You've answered it yourself in the last two paragraphs. Screw IBM, screw Intel. In order for this nonsense to work, the operating system has to support it. You can bet Linux, and *BSD won't support it, or if they do, they'll provide the "extra" access needed. More and more I find, I need less Microsoft software*. Even at work where it's a mostly Microsoft shop and the standard desktop is W2K. GUID's, CPU Serial numbers, and now hard drives. That's ok, this will wind up killing Intel, and hard drive manufacturers that insist on this. Many like us, won't buy the shit. We'll buy hardware without serial numbers, or at least those whose serial numbers can be overwritten. i.e. SPARC's, Mac's, etc. and we'll be running *BSD/Linux. * Anecdotal: I've recently purchased a home entertainment PC as a replacement for my DVD player and CD changers, etc from qbex.com. It's basically a small PC in a very small form factor. If I ever get my hands on a good Linux based DVD player, I'll use that. (I guess I haven't yet been trolling the DivX stuff as I've had no need for it yet.) It pisses me off that the DVD player tells me that after five more plays, it will lock itself to "Region 1" and that while I have both VGA and RCA+SVIDEO out, that it would refuse to play on any RCA/SVIDEO hardware that doesn't have Macrovision. This is insane. Anyone can build such a Home Entertainment PC as the QBEX simply by purchasing an infrared keyboard+mouse and a VGA to RCA scan converter and likely get much better output... I bought this piece of shit simply because it already had all the drivers and pieces in one box. All I have to say is this: you bastards! Copyright protection is getting out of hand when it gets in my way. I've paid for the DVD's. I've paid for the player software. I've paid for the hardware. How dare they tell me how I may use it so long as I don't make copies other than backups? So what if I buy a perfectly legitimate DVD from a different country? I should be able to watch it without going through acrobatics! So what if I back up my legally purchased DVD's to VHS tape so I can watch it where I don't have a DVD player, or on my camcorder? So what if I can copy the raw bits off the DVD platter for backup incase I scratch it? When was the last time you saw a movie house offer to replace damaged media for nominal cost? (i.e. you've damaged accidentally, or your kid decided to use as a frisbie, or your dog as a chew toy?) So what if I hook up the VIDEO out signal of the DVD player or PC to a 2GHz transmitter so I can watch it in my bedroom instead of my living room? So what if I can have ten friends come over with beer and popcorn to watch a movie I purchased? So what if I chose to let a friend borrow my DVD's or if I borrow theirs? > This is another opportunity for Red Hat or some other Linux box > company to walk into companies and say, "Use Red Hat, Mozilla, and > Star Office and you'll never have license problems again. The > hardware guys claim that they can take care of rights management > issues for you. So can we and we cost alot less." > > I think this may be the greatest thing that's come along for open > source OSs yet. As Princess Leia said in the Hollywood content "Star > Wars", "The harder you squeeze your fingers Vader, the more planets > slip through the fingers." Do those content wrangling lawyers down > there ever look at the content they protect? -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From auto58194 at hushmail.com Tue Dec 26 10:31:32 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 13:31:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] Message-ID: <200012262034.MAA03798@user5.hushmail.com> At Sun, 24 Dec 2000 23:50:01 -0800, "Raymond D. Mereniuk" wrote: >In my initial message I stated the current rise in natural gas prices >are caused by multiple factors. [blah blah blah] That's outright bullshit. You wrote: "The bad decisions of the citizens of California have produced an energy crisis in what is called the Northwest for which all citizens in what is called the Northwest must pay the price." You said nothing about other factors. Nothing at all. You also ignore that your subject was "The Cost of California Liberalism." That was your point, wasn't it? To blame California Liberalism for your home heating bills? >On top of these factors I stated the greater portion of the increase >was created by un-expected demand in California. Greater portion in what terms? Land area? Population? IQ? Ralph Nader voters? It's an easy game to play when your claims are based on things like a whole bunch of Californians using more power than relatively few Vancouverites. And how much of this unexpected California demand was caused by California Liberalism? Have Sierra Club members been baking lots of extra cookies lately? Or is it all the electric cars that are selling like hotcakes? No, I got it, all those people living in trees to keep them from getting cut down to be used for firewood are forcing people to use their electric heaters, that's it, right? Or are you just going back to blaming Californian Liberals for preferring natural gas for electric power generation and saying it's their fault that you use the same fuel source to heat your home? >Coupled with the low water situation, and the resulting decrease in >hydro generated power, the increased use of natural gas powered >generating capacity would be expected to cause an increase in the >price of a commodity in which the increase in demand was >unexpected or exceeded supply. No shit, but what does this have to do with California Liberalism? >If a power generating utility had built new power plants and >commited to a fuel supply (and the accompanying infrastructure) the >likelihood of unexpected prices increases would be much lower. So? As you now admit, the demand was unexpected. Why would a utility build a new plant and commit to a fuel supply for unexpected demand? You say they're using reserve natural gas fueled plants to meet unexpected demand. Isn't this what they're supposed to do? Do you actually expect power utilities to build plants and commit to fuel they don't expect a need for just to provide a buffer for natural gas prices? That's not what happens in a deregulated environment and I don't think California's electric utility deregulation is considered a result of California Liberalism. Is it? From adam at homeport.org Tue Dec 26 11:00:51 2000 From: adam at homeport.org (Adam Shostack) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 14:00:51 -0500 Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Re: Dude! It's wired!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20001226140051.A4923@weathership.homeport.org> On Tue, Dec 26, 2000 at 10:38:36AM -0800, Tim May wrote: | >I don't think I'd go that far. As far as I'm concerned, elliptic curves | >are just another group to do Diffie-Hellman & friends in. What I'd call | >the "core" of mathematical crypto is the work that Goldreich, Goldwasser, | >Micali, et. al. have been doing over the past fifteen years -- trying to | >rough out just what kind of assumptions are necessary and sufficient to | >give us the kind of cryptography we want. | | Has there really been much progress in the last ten years? I remember | the flurry of ground-breaking work in the mid-80s, and it was much in | the air at the first "Crypto Conference" I attended in 1988 (also the | last such conference I attended, for various reasons). Depends on your definition of progress. I think that the work that esp. Goldreich has been doing in the foundations of cryptography (ie, http://www.toc.lcs.mit.edu/~oded/tfoc.html) is very exciting stuff, because it pushes us towards a solid grounding for systems, and away from the need for one of a dozen or so really solid cryptanalysts to look at each system published. Is this progress in the space of librarization, standardization, or economics of security? No. But we need stronger foundations in both security and crypto in order to justify the investments in it. When a company can spend really large sums of money for only small assurance that its systems are more secure, its a hard decision to justify. (Not that there aren't justifications, they're just non-obvious.) When those investments are butressed by an understanding that the features will work as planned, they'll be easier to make. Speaking for myself, Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From ultratrim2000 at aol.com Tue Dec 26 14:21:47 2000 From: ultratrim2000 at aol.com (ultratrim2000 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 14:21:47 Subject: LOSE 30 POUNDS IN 30 DAYS, GUARANTEED! Message-ID: <570.711201.803880@mail01.weightlosswks23232.com> *****AMAZING MELT AWAY FAT ABSORBER CAPSULES***** LOSE 30 POUNDS IN 30 DAYS... GUARANTEED!!! 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Shipping Name______________________________________________ Shipping Address___________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________ Shipping City,State,Zip ___________________________________________________________ Country ___________________________________________________________ Email Address & Phone Number(Please Write Neat) From hahaha at sexyfun.net Tue Dec 26 14:21:22 2000 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 17:21:22 -0500 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: midgets.scr Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com Tue Dec 26 14:34:55 2000 From: ANTIGEN_BAMBI at cognex.com (ANTIGEN_BAMBI) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 17:34:55 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Message-ID: Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "CDR: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at Cognex/Natick/BAMBI. From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com Tue Dec 26 14:53:58 2000 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE at thinklinkinc.com (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 17:53:58 -0500 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris@m virus Message-ID: <3475CE1F1D75D4118174009027A4CDE6322C37@exchange.sfocorp.thinklinkinc.com> Antigen for Exchange found midgets.scr infected with W32/Hybris at m virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", was sent from Hahaha and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at ITC/Corporate/EXCHANGE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 675 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bear at sonic.net Tue Dec 26 18:33:31 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 18:33:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <3A493B50.2B5D8DAD@home.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Dec 2000, Paul Coleman wrote: >is there a group in canada? There are, of course, many groups in canada. Including the moose lodge, elks, eastern star, parliament, ladies' sewing circles, church congregations, aldermen, political parties, juries, and random sets of people who happen to be in the same room. However, these are not "groups" in the sense useful to cryptography. Bear From coleman6663 at home.com Tue Dec 26 16:44:00 2000 From: coleman6663 at home.com (Paul Coleman) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:44:00 -0500 Subject: nambla Message-ID: <3A493B50.2B5D8DAD@home.com> is there a group in canada? From dan at freeadvertisingforall.com Tue Dec 26 21:07:45 2000 From: dan at freeadvertisingforall.com (Dan Wesley) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:07:45 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200012270212.UAA17655@einstein.ssz.com> Hello FellowSurfer, I'm writing you because we have something in common: We're both on the Net and use some type of modem. I sent this to you as a friend....please do yourself a favor and speed up your connection by 4000% for under $20 while you can! No tools needed for the installation. All you have to do is plug in your high-speed data cable, in place of the old phone line, and install the program! BAM! Your done! And save over $60 with a DOUBLE MONEY-BACK GUARANTEE! For more info please send a blank e-mail to info at freeadvertisingforall.com with "info" in the subject line. To receive no further mailings from me please send a blank e-mail to dropme at freeadvertisingforall.com with "dropme" in the subject line. Sincerely, Dan Wesley 175 East Main St. North East, Pa 16428-1345 1-814-725-9051 Send comments to: webmaster at freeadvertisingforall.com This message is sent in compliance of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/ 12260-2 From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Tue Dec 26 23:22:43 2000 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:22:43 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: References: <3A468A2E.14553.1B9FF569@localhost> Message-ID: <3A4926C1.9508.25D45BB4@localhost> Tim May wrote > Lost on your typically smug Canadian analysis has been any objective > analysis of markets for power. Do you know, for example, that > California as a state is a _net exporter_ of power to the Northwest > and especially to Western Canada at certain times of the year? In the > fall and winter, in fact, when hydroelectric generation rates in BC > and Washington are reduced. I don't know where you get your information but I doubt your statements. California is a net exporter of power is suspect, lets see the details here. BC never imports power! You must travel around this place and then you will understand, every major water way is blocked and producing power. Couple this with the low population and you have low demand. The Bonneville Power Authority (BPA) is required to return downstream benefits to BC but this has nothing to do with our requirements. It is payment for the water management services supplied to their power generation system. Any power returned to BC is probably promptly exported. On this angle you are wrong, BC is a net power exporter in both electrical and natural gas realms. > In your kind of lingo, "British Columbia failed to build enough new plants." BC has not built new power plants in a long time. There is so much supply here that it was official policy to discourage any co- generation or alternative electrical supply development. > Markets are not simple. Prices rise, prices fall. To claim that > California is now the primary cause of your higher heating costs, > boo-hoo, is childishly naive. Yes markets are not simple which is probably the reason you fail to see the California component in the current situation. The energy market doesn't lend itself to Economics 101. > >If a power generating utility had built new power plants and > >commited to a fuel supply (and the accompanying infrastructure) the > >likelihood of unexpected prices increases would be much lower. > > See above. Childishly naive. Sorry, this is where you are showing your Childishly naive understanding of the energy business. In the energy business (natural gas wise) if you commit to the supply and build infrastructure you get lower prices. I re-state my initial premise, Californians have a lot to learm about energy economics! If you don't commit, you pay more! Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca History of a Telco, A Fairy Tale http://www.fbn.bc.ca/telcohis.html From galt at inconnu.isu.edu Tue Dec 26 23:58:39 2000 From: galt at inconnu.isu.edu (John Galt) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:58:39 -0700 (MST) Subject: nambla In-Reply-To: <3A493B50.2B5D8DAD@home.com> Message-ID: www.rcmp.ca Most LEOs are among their most supportive members. They troll mailinglists for membership and often supplement their income by blowing little boys for lunch money.... On Tue, 26 Dec 2000, Paul Coleman wrote: > is there a group in canada? > -- Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email galt at inconnu.isu.edu From announce at inbox.nytimes.com Wed Dec 27 00:49:11 2000 From: announce at inbox.nytimes.com (The New York Times on the Web) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 03:49:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Important Membership Information Message-ID: <200012270849.DAA03526@web80t.lga2.nytimes.com> Dear cypherpunks2001a, Welcome to NYTimes.com! 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From guilherme at nortenet.pt Tue Dec 26 19:54:46 2000 From: guilherme at nortenet.pt (Guilherme Oliveira) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 03:54:46 +0000 Subject: Turbo C References: Message-ID: <3A496806.D7841B6F@nortenet.pt> > "ANALISTAS_ONSET CONTR [CONBR]" wrote: > > Hi there, > > I am looking for the software Turbo C from Borland and I never found. > So I am sorry to ask that to you, but could you send the turbo C from > e-mail to me ? I will really aprecciate if it is possible. > > Thanks in advance > > Luiz Eduardo de Oliveira > Operations - Data Center Services > J&J - Networking and Computing Services - LA > São José dos Campos - SP - Brazil > ( Phone: (55+12) 332-4460 or JJDIAL 738-4163 > Fax : (55+12) 332-4163 > * e-mail: conset06 at conbr.jnj.com Oi irmão :)) Why don't you try djgpp or rhide (that has an ide like borland) ? These are compliant with ANSI C. Borland is not. []'s -- mailto:guilherme at nortenet.pt || http://www.nortenet.pt/~guilherme "All bits used in this post are recycled !" From announce at lga2.nytimes.com Wed Dec 27 08:00:54 2000 From: announce at lga2.nytimes.com (NYTimes.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:00:54 -0500 Subject: Find more of what's inside NYTimes.com Message-ID: <200012271605.IAA24120@toad.com> Dear Member, Thanks for joining the NYTimes.com community. We hope that you are finding our site to be an excellent source of insightful news coverage, in-depth analysis and the best in arts and entertainment. There are a lot of new and useful features on NYTimes.com that may not be immediately evident on our home page. 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Look for the new "E-mail This Article" link at the top and bottom of most articles on the site. Thanks again for your interest in NYTimes.com. To comment on any aspect of our site or services, feel free to write to us at comments at nytimes.com. We hope you'll make a point of visiting us today and every day. Sincerely, Rich Meislin, Editor in Chief New York Times Digital ABOUT THIS E-MAIL ---- This is a one-time e-mail. As a member of the BBBOnline Privacy Program and the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy. Please do not reply to this e-mail. From jamesd at echeque.com Wed Dec 27 11:29:21 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:29:21 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A49C810.239161EE@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001220092303.01dff150@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001223141313.02188e98@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001227112219.01b57898@shell11.ba.best.com> -- "James A. Donald" wrote: > > That the nazis tended to murder anyone including their fellow > > nazis, and commies tended to murder anyone including their fellow > > commies, is an objective fact, capable of being true or false. > > > > That normal people do not tend to murder anyone, but only those > > that really do threaten them, is also an objective fact capable of > > being true or false. From such objective facts, we can determine > > that the nazis really were objectively evil. At 11:44 AM 12/27/2000 +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: > *IF* killing people (this way) is the definition of evil, and there > is no other way to be evil but by being a murderer, *THEN* you are > perfectly right. I am merely using murder as the most extreme and unambiguous form of harm. The word "evil" has two senses. Harm suffered (morally neutral sense of the word "evil") and harm unjustifiably and willfully done, or the danger of such harm. (Moral sense of the word "evil") Situations often arise where it is not obvious what is "unjustifiable" and "willful", where such judgments are necessarily subjective, but in most of the cases that we care about, most of the time, it is perfectly objective. Someone is going about his own business, and out of the blue, someone robs him, assaults him, or someone denounces him as a class enemy, race enemy, class traitor, race traitor, etc. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 2b+rEh2sUmsbu7gKB3b5R54ObUVgCN2AUrNdNY0a 4eDYGULs/oewZgglw6c1M17S4HGW+43VCEjOse7Ia From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 27 02:31:50 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:31:50 +0100 Subject: Copy protection of ordinary disk drives? References: <20001222201353.A506@nexuscomputing.com> Message-ID: <3A49C516.34DAA590@ricardo.de> Brian Lane wrote: > The only way they can make this even begin to work in the marketplace > is > to force manufacturers to stop producing uncontrollable drives. I > wouldn't > be suprised if there was an amendment to enact this waiting to attach > itself > to an obscure bill in Congress. > > Or maybe I'm just being paranoid? you're not. we've seen it happen with CSS. all they need is an opportunity to push it. maybe some "enhanced" hard-drive that has higher storage capacity, or lower seek times, or whatever other marginal advantage that the whole scam can be attached to. From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 27 02:44:32 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:44:32 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001220092303.01dff150@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001223141313.02188e98@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A49C810.239161EE@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > Whether they were a threat or not is an objective fact. Jews were not a > threat (unless perhaps one happens to live in Eretz Israel). Nazis were a > threat. Anyone who says otherwise does not merely have different moral > preferences. He is deluded or lying. > > In particular jews were not a threat to germans and the aryan race, whereas > nazis really were a threat to everyone. > > That the nazis tended to murder anyone including their fellow nazis, and > commies tended to murder anyone including their fellow commies, is an > objective fact, capable of being true or false. > > That normal people do not tend to murder anyone, but only those that really > do threaten them, is also an objective fact capable of being true or > false. From such objective facts, we can determine that the nazis really > were objectively evil. *IF* killing people (this way) is the definition of evil, and there is no other way to be evil but by being a murderer, *THEN* you are perfectly right. I still think murder and "evil", while touching each other, are not identical. I still think you're overly simplificating the problem, and that's exactly why it works so good in these extreme cases. From tcmay at got.net Wed Dec 27 11:46:47 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:46:47 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <3A4926C1.9508.25D45BB4@localhost> References: <3A468A2E.14553.1B9FF569@localhost> <3A4926C1.9508.25D45BB4@localhost> Message-ID: At 11:22 PM -0800 12/26/00, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote: >Tim May wrote > >> Lost on your typically smug Canadian analysis has been any objective >> analysis of markets for power. Do you know, for example, that >> California as a state is a _net exporter_ of power to the Northwest >> and especially to Western Canada at certain times of the year? In the >> fall and winter, in fact, when hydroelectric generation rates in BC >> and Washington are reduced. > >I don't know where you get your information but I doubt your >statements. California is a net exporter of power is suspect, lets >see the details here. I said "at certain times of the year." British Columbia is tied by treaty arrangements (Columbia River Treaty, 1961) to the Bonneville Power Administration (BPA), and is, VERY SIGNIFICANTLY, now part of same grid that is the ISO, the Independent System Operator, mostly based in California. Read the following and weep for your beloved Canadian independence: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001208/ts/california_power_dc_3.html For example, "`We're about to find out next week just how interconnected the Western grid really is,'' Patrick Dorinson, spokesman for the California Independent System Operator (ISO) told Reuters. "The ISO operates about 75 percent of the California power transmission grid, the biggest part of a network of high voltage lines that spans from northern British Columbia to the northwest Baja California and as far east as the Rocky Mountains. " Between the Columbia River Treaty power-sharing and the Western Grid, it's all one main grid. Importantly, my point that California exports power _at certain times of the year_ is covered in the material below: For example: http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/001205/n05491394.html "CONCERNS OVER NORTHWEST SUPPLY CRUNCH The crisis has now spread to the northwest states of Washington and Oregon, where electricity is often used for heating. Those states export power to California in summer to help it meet its load but flows reverse in winter as heating demand grows in the northern states. ... ``We have always taken for granted that California will help out the Northwest in winter as we help them in summer,'' saidDulcy Mahar, spokeswoman for the Portland, Ore.-based Bonneville Power Administration, noting the Northwest is hoping that Canada will be able to provide some help in an emergency." and from http://nepa.eh.doe.gov/eis/eis0171/0171chap3.htm "The peak load demands of the Pacific Northwest and California occur at different times. The Pacific Northwest peak demands occur in the winter, and California's peak demands occur in the summer. During the summer, the hydro-based Pacific Northwest and BPA systems tend to have excess capacity, which can be used to help meet California's summer peak demands. California's thermal-based system tends to have excess capacity in the winter, which can help the Pacific Northwest meet its winter peak. Full use of both systems can reduce the need for new resources in each system. BPA currently has several seasonal energy and capacity for energy exchange contracts in effect with a number of California utilities. > >Sorry, this is where you are showing your Childishly naive >understanding of the energy business. In the energy business >(natural gas wise) if you commit to the supply and build >infrastructure you get lower prices. > >I re-state my initial premise, Californians have a lot to learm about >energy economics! If you don't commit, you pay more! --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From webmaster at adultfriendfinder.com Wed Dec 27 11:52:47 2000 From: webmaster at adultfriendfinder.com (webmaster at adultfriendfinder.com) Date: 27 Dec 2000 11:52:47 -0800 Subject: Profile Approved on Adult Friend Finder! Message-ID: <20001227195247.31708.qmail@mail.adultfriendfinder.com> Dear oddodoodo, We are happy to inform you that your profile on Adult Friend Finder (http://adultfriendfinder.com/) has been approved! Your profile will soon be made available to the other members of Adult Friend Finder. You are also able to update your profile at any time online. 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From tom at ricardo.de Wed Dec 27 02:59:24 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:59:24 +0100 Subject: Evil Copy Protection vs. Good Crypto-Capable Objects References: <3.0.5.32.20001224221536.00a8a560@idiom.com> Message-ID: <3A49CB8C.71B33B73@ricardo.de> Bill Stewart wrote: > Music Hoarders have a somewhat harder problem, in that they > want to copy-protect information while providing near-identical > copies to large numbers of people, while you're more likely > to want to provide your personal transaction information or > private messages only to a small number of recipients - > but you may still want some kind of watermarking to identify > who sold your "private" information to somebody you didn't authorize. putting watermarking aside, this is the core. the normal use for encryption is to make sure only a few people can access the information. the movie/record/content "protection" purpose is not, you still want to distribute your stuff high and wide, to as many people as possible. you can say "authorized access" in both cases, but it has a different meaning. both "root" and "ftp" ask for a password when you log into the FTP server, but they're hardly on the same level. therefore, software (and hardware) does and needs to work differently in these cases. you don't use PGP for DVDs, you invent CSS. I do think these things are farther apart than they appear. what it boils down to is that the "protection" scheme doesn't seriously want to stop anyone accessing the content. what it really wants is to make sure he's following the rules (such as paying a fee). this is more an authorization/permission system than an encryption one. From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 27 16:30:01 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:30:01 -0800 Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Scalability and Napster) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001227163001.00b51b30@idiom.com> At 02:42 AM 12/26/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote: >More than that, if the "tragedy of the commons" really happens for >Gnutella and Napster and friends, then people will look for ways to avert >it. Maybe it won't happen ("The Cornucopia of the Commons"), but if >it does, reputation systems might see some sudden interest. Napster itself suffers from tragedy of the inadequate business model, since it relies on centralized servers with no visible means of support (other than the "with 20 million users we should be able to get revenue _somewhere_") and a potential for exponential growth in their legal costs if they get any revenue. They do have a problem related to tragedy of the commons, which is a need for servers that are bigger than the biggest individual servers they currently support, and a technology that doesn't scale as well as they'd like, though some parts of it scale extremely well and the next level of bottlenecks are still good enough for pirating music, with users sharing music in communities of a few hundred thousand, if not good enough for six billion users. I suspect the next layer of scalability could be handled adequately by some good engineering, though perhaps it needs Real Computer Science, but without a good funding model it's not likely to get done. The current model does seem to port well to the Open-Servers-Not-Run-By-Napster model - volunteers can run medium-sized servers because the first level of scalability design was well done, and as with Napster-run servers, it's close enough for pirate music, though it doesn't let you find everything on the distributed net. Less Napster-like systems with decentralized servers have to address scaling problems as well. Some of them tie their metadata and their transmission methods together closely; some split them apart better. Gnutella sounds like it's in trouble - too much needs to be online, and the original designs can't handle a large number of requests if there are people with slow connections on the net. It's kind of like tragedy of the commons where the commons is small and everybody has to walk their sheep in single file, so the slowest or dumbest sheep become a bottleneck for everyone else. Freenet paid more attention to scaling in its design - it's easy to retrieve stuff if you know where it is, or to find stuff if it's relatively near you, and it can cope with not being able to find everything - On the other hand, it may be harder to find the stuff you want. >On Mon, 25 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: >> In other words, it's time to get crypto out of the math and computer >> science departments and put it in the engineering departments where >> it belongs. Some of this may be computer science, some is engineering, some is just counting stuff :-) Some problems, like scalability or understanding don't-use-the-same-key-twice attacks on RC4, are Science the first time you learn them, but they're just engineering after a while, the way understanding the relationship of the tensile strength of material to its molecular structure is science, but designing a bridge so that it doesn't overstress any of its beams is engineering, and taking occasional samples of bolts and destructively testing them to make sure they've got the tensile strength they're supposed to is engineering or maybe just business practice (depending on whether you're doing it to make sure your bridge will perform the way you want or to make sure your suppliers aren't ripping you off.) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From bill.stewart at pobox.com Wed Dec 27 16:58:41 2000 From: bill.stewart at pobox.com (Bill Stewart) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 16:58:41 -0800 Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001227165841.00b52640@idiom.com> Tim May wrote: >> In other words, it's time to get crypto out of the math and computer >> science departments and put it in the engineering departments where >> it belongs. Tim's complained for a while that the cypherpunks meetings and discussions have declined in quality, partly because we've tended to rehash old material rather than doing new and interesting work, and partly because we've tended to have fewer talks on new stuff people are doing and more on some commercial business (maybe or maybe not run by cypherpunks) doing their product or non-technical talks by EFF lawyer types. While I'm not disagreeing with him here, I think a lot of this is _precisely_ related to the movement of crypto out of math and CS areas and into engineering. Mojo Nation, for example, is partly interesting because it's not just Yet Another Encrypted Music Sharing Product - it's mixing the crypto with economic models in ways that are intellectually complex, even if they're somewhat at the hand-waving level rather than highly precise. At 02:42 AM 12/26/00 -0500, dmolnar wrote: >There's some hope. There was a workshop on "Design Issues in Anonymity and >Unobservability" this past summer which brought people together to talk >about these issues. The Info Hiding Workshops are still going strong. >With luck, this year's IHW may have a paper on reputations in it... Cool. Are the proceedings on line anywhere? (Or is it only for people who know the secret keys...) >On the other hand, we can oppose this to the fact that we >have a bunch of remailers, and they seem to work. >They may be unreliable, but no one seems >to have used padding flaws to break a remailer, as far as we know. Arrgh! Dave, just because nobody's known to have broken them doesn't mean that nobody's succeeded in breaking them (without us knowing they've succeeded), or that anybody's put serious effort into an attack. The basic remailer network is known to be breakable by anybody doing a thorough eavesdropping attack, because you can learn a lot from message sizes. Mixmasters are much safer, because message sizes are constant (though message counts aren't), but it's not clear whether they're good enough, given a good attack. Pipenets are probably secure enough against most attacks, but they're annoying economically - not surprising that Zero Knowledge's initial service didn't fully implement them. The reason remailers have been Good Enough so far is that as far as we know, nobody's had the motivation to do a proactive eavesdropping attack on them, or a proactive deployment of untrustworthy remailers the attacks have either been after-the-fact attempts to get information that wasn't logged (they're strong enough for that, if run by trustable people on uncracked machines), or proactive attempts to close the remailers (many of those attacks have been successful.) Small numbers of remailers (there are typically about 20) aren't good enough to resist shutdown-forcing attacks. The cool thing about Zero Knowledge was that they had a business model they thought could get large numbers of service providers to support, which increases the security against loss of individual remailers as well as reducing the likelihood of an individual remailer shutting down. Thanks! 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If you prefer not to receive future product and service update mailings from Britannica, simply respond to this e-mail with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line. (Please note: Unsubscribing is an automatic process. We will not respond to these messages.) This message was sent to cypherpunks at toad.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 4586 bytes Desc: not available URL: From MLMOPP01 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 27 19:56:51 2000 From: MLMOPP01 at hotmail.com (Todd) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:56:51 -0600 Subject: New MLM Opportunity Message-ID: <200012280819.AAA12480@cyberpass.net> ****************** Information about this email can be found at the bottom. ****************** Hi, my name is Todd Smith. Your email address was on a list of people that opted to receive emails about new MLM opportunities. I have one for you, and I hope it fits your needs. Let me first say that when I was deciding what email to send to talk about my MLM program, I decided against the standard email ad with a bunch of exclamation points and dollar signs. I thought that if I received one of those in my email, I would delete it as soon as I saw the title. So I thought you would appreciate a hand written intelligent email that has more facts than figures. The website is called Gold Club. If you are already signed up, you don't have to read any farther, and thanks for your time. Otherwise, I think you'll really like it. The idea of the site is that before you enter into an MLM, you should already have people in your downline. But you can't put people in your downline until you sign up, right? Well Gold Club isn't actually an MLM company. It's a free service that builds up a downline under you, so that when you decide to join one the 4 MLM companies that are registered with Gold Club, you will already have the people under you to begin making money. I'd also like to point out that I work as a computer programmer. This means that my mind is very logically oriented, and skeptical about anything without proof. After I joined, a bombarded the owners with every question and problem I could make up or find, but I was always given a good, satisfying answer. The point being I couldn't find anything wrong with the system and I really do think it will work. The best part of the program is, besides the fact that the whole thing is free, is Gold Club will automatically put people in your downline for you. That way you really do have to do nothing to build your downline, and therefore you do nothing to start making money in MLM's. I hope this short truthful email has done more to convince you than a long flashy one. If you want any more details, all will be explained at the site. Please, go there and look around, ask me anything you like, and have a nice day. http://www.gold-club.net/sponsor.asp?TS96321 ****************** Email Info: This email was sent to you because you chose to receive emails about MLM opportunities. If, in fact, you didn't want to receive emails about MLM opportunities, please accept our apologies and know that we'll never send you anything ever again. If you feel like reporting me for spamming, please realize that I got your email address from an opt-in list, which means that somehow your email was voluntarily put on the list. And although the return address is hotmail, I didn't use the hotmail mail server to send them. Thank you ****************** From donblack1995 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 27 22:50:46 2000 From: donblack1995 at yahoo.com (donblack1995 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 22:50:46 PST Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#532211899: Patent for Mazed Castle board game for sale. Message-ID: <200012280650.eBS6oku19915@bashir.ebay.com> I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: Patent for Mazed Castle board game for sale. Seller: donblack1995 at yahoo.com Starts: Dec-25-00 18:37:21 PST Ends: Jan-04-01 18:37:21 PST Price: Starts at $2,500.00 To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=532211899 Item Description: Mazed Castle Patent number D297,023 This patent is for a game I invented many years ago. I still have the patent and have no idea of what to do with the game, or the time to do anything with it. I am selling this game and the rights for an extremely low amount considering the value that it could make. This patent is being sold for only $2,500 for 99% of the rights or if bid is to exceed $10,000 I will be selling all rights to the game. The game is called Mazed Castle and involves game boards with mazes on them. The object would be to get through the maze. There are cards to draw to tell how many spaces to go and there are also cards that will send you in different directions, which could be to your benefit or your hindrance depending on the direction the card would send you. The mazes could have many paths to get through or just a few depending on what age level you wish to play. Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com From secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net Thu Dec 28 00:07:48 2000 From: secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net (Secret Squirrel) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 03:07:48 -0500 Subject: Single-file photons Message-ID: <7f06e3caa38edee39f1db54e9263d6b3@anonymous> Photons can now be emitted one at a time, an advance towards quantum computers and cryptography A tiny disc that emits light in an orderly procession of single photons, and with no background noise, has been created. The "photon turnstile" could ultimately transmit the keys to secret codes safely past prying eyes or help computer scientists exploit the strange laws of quantum mechanics. Researchers have long tried to develop devices that emit one photon at a time. In September, researchers reported that a single molecule could do the trick. But the material surrounding the molecule produced a lot of noise - an unwanted second photon popped out about 20% of the time. However, the new semiconductor disc, made by a team from the University of California, Santa Barbara, avoids this problem. "Our principle improvement is that we were able to remove this background," says applied physicist Atac Imamoglu. Quantum dot Imamoglu and colleagues embedded a "quantum dot" inside a 200-nanometer-thick disc of gallium arsenide. The dot is a dab of indium arsenide less than 50 nanometres across and 3 nanometres thick. They cooled the device to about 25 Kelvin and shone pulses of laser light on it. The light sent electrons cruising through the gallium arsenide. These left behind vacancies or "holes" that acted like positive charges floating through the disk. An electron-hole pair would quickly settle onto the quantum dot, where they would recombine to give off one photon of a particular wavelength. In the meantime, all the other electron-hole pairs would annihilate in ways that produce no light, or light of the wrong wavelength. In this way, the researchers obtained precisely one of the desired photons per laser pulse. Extraneous photons didn't crop up because the disk was so small, Imamoglu says. "The microdisc helps by reducing the volume of material that is excited and thereby reducing the background," he says. Keys and Q-bits A stream of single photons could safely transmit code keys because a spy would have to measure each photon. According to the laws of quantum mechanics, this would alter its state, says team member Christoph Milcher, now at the University of Bremen, in Germany. "You can send a key with single photons so that no-one else can detect it without you knowing," he says. Two photons might also be joined through a process called entanglement, Imamoglu says, to form a logic bit that can be 0, 1, or 0-and-1 at the same time. Such "q-bits" are essential for quantum computing. But currently, Imamoglu and colleagues capture only one in every 10,000 single-photon pulses. They hope to adjust the shape of their tiny device to quickly raise that to a more practical one in every 100. More at: Science (vol 290, p 2282), Nature (vol 407, p 491) Correspondence about this story should be directed to latestnews at newscientist.com 1136 GMT, 22 December 2000 Adrian Cho From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Thu Dec 28 00:56:28 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 03:56:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001227165841.00b52640@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > fewer talks on new stuff people are doing and more on > some commercial business (maybe or maybe not run by cypherpunks) > doing their product or non-technical talks by EFF lawyer types. I'm in the midddle of composing a reply to Tim's message (which is getting bigger every time I sit down to finish it, ominously enough). One of the points that has popped into my mind so far is that while we've had academic crypto research since the 80s, thanks to Rivest, Shamir, Aldeman, Diffie, Hellman, and others willing to defy the NSA, we have _not_ had a similar tradition of commercial cryptography - or at least, not a tradition of companies obtaining money for cryptographic *protocols* as opposed to ciphers. It seems to me that it took a long while for people to even recognize that there was more to cryptography than secrecy. Maybe it happened quickly in academia, but it doesn't seem to have filtered out quickly (and then there's still the chilling effect from export controls). This is one of the reasons why the early Cypherpunk work is so damn important -- it showed the amazing, powerful things you can do given cryptography and a little cleverness, and it did so to a (comparatively) wide audience! Even after "everyone" knows that you can do, say, cryptographic voting, there's still the question of "who's going to pay for it?" That question seems to have found a partial answer with the Internet/Web/"e-commerce" frenzy. The thing is, that is *new*, only 4 or 5 years old. Before, you could go out and say "I want to go commercialize neat protocol X," and good luck to you...today, you might get funding. Until you get that funding, you can't start the engineering work that's required to take a protocol from the "cool CRYPTO paper" stage to the "real world product." Before Tim jumps on me, yes, I know there were early electronic markets, and yes, electronic trading was around before the Web. Yes, these could have been viable markets for digital cash, fair exchange protocols, whatever. Even electronic voting could and did get started earlier (though not using cryptographic techniques AFAIK) I do not dispute this! It simply seems to me that the climate today has the possibility of demand for such protocols (and more) on a wider scale than previously. > of crypto out of math and CS areas and into engineering. > Mojo Nation, for example, is partly interesting because it's not just > Yet Another Encrypted Music Sharing Product - it's mixing the > crypto with economic models in ways that are intellectually complex, > even if they're somewhat at the hand-waving level > rather than highly precise. Maybe it will force smart people to move the mix from the hand-waving level to something highly precise. Insh'allah. > Cool. Are the proceedings on line anywhere? (Or is it only > for people who know the secret keys...) The 2nd and 3rd are, via Springer-Verlag LINK service. Tables of contents are free; you should be able to recover the papers from their authors' home pages (use Google!). If you can't find something, e-mail me. Page for past proceedings: http://chacs.nrl.navy.mil/IHW2001/past-workshops.html Page for IHW 2001: http://chacs.nrl.navy.mil/IHW2001/ Unfortunately, the TOC for the first IHW is not online, nor do the papers seem to be available. You can extract the papers from Petitcolas' bibliography at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/fapp2/steganography/bibliography/index.html and may be able to get some of the papers that way. I note a previous message from Hal Finney which has some links as well http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.1997.05.15-1997.05.21/msg00298.html (I haven't tried them) I should state up front that the workshops are a little heavy on watermarking papers, which may not be of too much interest to cypherpunks. The papers on breaking watermarks, on the other hand, may be of more interest. :-) > >On the other hand, we can oppose this to the fact that we > >have a bunch of remailers, and they seem to work. > >They may be unreliable, but no one seems > >to have used padding flaws to break a remailer, as far as we know. > > Arrgh! Dave, just because nobody's known to have broken them > doesn't mean that nobody's succeeded in breaking them > (without us knowing they've succeeded), [snip a well-deserved beating] Well, this is what I get for trying to moderate myself. Everything you say is correct - of course. I actually agree with you! I mentioned this because I wanted to avoid playing the part of a "theoretical Cassandra," which is something I do too often. (In fact, if I'm not mistaken, that's part of what Tim's response about different adversary models attempts to speak to - the fact that traditional cryptographic models assume a maximally powerful adversary, while we might want a finer grained hierarchy of adversaries and their effects...) -David From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Thu Dec 28 01:02:46 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 04:02:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001227165841.00b52640@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > >There's some hope. There was a workshop on "Design Issues in Anonymity and > >Unobservability" this past summer which brought people together to talk > >about these issues. The Info Hiding Workshops are still going strong. > >With luck, this year's IHW may have a paper on reputations in it... > > Cool. Are the proceedings on line anywhere? (Or is it only > for people who know the secret keys...) Uh, it just occurs to me that I may have misread you. The Design Issues in Anonymity and Unobservability is currently being turned into Springer-Verlag LNCS 2009. So the proceedings aren't online as a whole yet (indeed, we just submitted our final final draft two weeks ago). You can find a list of papers at http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~hannes/wsprogram.html our paper is at http://www.freehaven.net/doc/berk/freehaven-berk.ps and searching for authors' home pages or e-mail may reveal other papers. -David From nobody at neuropa.net Wed Dec 27 23:49:08 2000 From: nobody at neuropa.net (Anonymous) Date: 28 Dec 2000 07:49:08 -0000 Subject: The Taxman Cometh Message-ID: <200012280744.eBS7i4r32163@berlin.neuropa.net> http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams1.asp From tcmay at got.net Thu Dec 28 08:59:29 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:59:29 -0800 Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:56 AM -0500 12/28/00, dmolnar wrote: > >I'm in the midddle of composing a reply to Tim's message (which is getting >bigger every time I sit down to finish it, ominously enough). Sounds good to me! >One of the >points that has popped into my mind so far is that while we've had >academic crypto research since the 80s, thanks to Rivest, Shamir, Aldeman, >Diffie, Hellman, and others willing to defy the NSA, we have _not_ had a >similar tradition of commercial cryptography - or at least, not a >tradition of companies obtaining money for cryptographic *protocols* as >opposed to ciphers. Probably the most basic motivation Eric Hughes and I had for calling together a bunch of Bay Area folks in '92 was because, in a 3-day series of talks we'd had earlier in the spring, we concluded that a lot of academic crypto was ripe for conversion into "building blocks." (Building blocks, protocols, modules, libraries...) Well, we were half-right. > >It seems to me that it took a long while for people to even recognize that >there was more to cryptography than secrecy. Maybe it happened quickly in >academia, but it doesn't seem to have filtered out quickly (and then >there's still the chilling effect from export controls). This is one of >the reasons why the early Cypherpunk work is so damn important -- it >showed the amazing, powerful things you can do given cryptography and a >little cleverness, and it did so to a (comparatively) wide audience! Thanks. It was an amazing time. It was clear that "uncoerced transactions" would be possible by combining "untraceable communications" (mixes, remailers, pseudonyms) and "untraceable payments" (pure Chaumian digicash). And that all manner of related things would come from this. Frankly, the early work on Magic Money (by Pr0ductCypher) _could_ have been the extended to give a Pretty Good Digital Cash, at least for experimental markets, but it wasn't. And as David notes, the commercial sector was focused on fairly mundane straight crypto. >... >Before Tim jumps on me, yes, I know there were early electronic markets, >and yes, electronic trading was around before the Web. Yes, these could >have been viable markets for digital cash, fair exchange protocols, >whatever. Even electronic voting could and did get started earlier >(though not using cryptographic techniques AFAIK) I do not dispute >this! It simply seems to me that the climate today has the possibility of >demand for such protocols (and more) on a wider scale than previously. I won't jump on you. Those early electronic markets, like Phil Salin's "AmIX" (American Information Exchange) were failures. AmIX desperately needed the Web, or at least free connect time. (We pioneers were paying $12 an hour, or somesuch, IIRC, to dial in to Palo Alto. This was circa 1990.) The Extropians list even ran "reputation markets" as a viable experiment, circa 1993-94. Some guy in Utah, IIRC, implemented it in Perl. (Precursors to Firefly and suchlike.) But it took the Web to create a proper substrate. > >> of crypto out of math and CS areas and into engineering. >> Mojo Nation, for example, is partly interesting because it's not just >> Yet Another Encrypted Music Sharing Product - it's mixing the >> crypto with economic models in ways that are intellectually complex, >> even if they're somewhat at the hand-waving level >> rather than highly precise. > >Maybe it will force smart people to move the mix from the hand-waving >level to something highly precise. Insh'allah. I hear the focus of Mojo Nation is shifting from "better living through piracy," to something more mundane involving deals to deliver video content. If so, much of the motivation to be absolutely robust will go away. Sad, if true. (Mojo folks feel free to jump in to set me straight...) > >> >On the other hand, we can oppose this to the fact that we >> >have a bunch of remailers, and they seem to work. >> >They may be unreliable, but no one seems >> >to have used padding flaws to break a remailer, as far as we know. > > >> Arrgh! Dave, just because nobody's known to have broken them >> doesn't mean that nobody's succeeded in breaking them >> (without us knowing they've succeeded), > >[snip a well-deserved beating] I think Bill was a bit harsh. There are some _economic_ issues involved, as usual. So long as the "value of what is being sent through remailers" is LESS THAN "the cost of subverting remailers," they will tend not to be subverted. There is an interesting trade-off in three dimensions between "value of material" and "cost to send it" and "bandwidth/latency." A remailer network is pretty good at sending small packets (e-mails) through N hops, where N can be quite large, so long as a latency of ~ hours is acceptable, which it usually is. And at very low cost. However, sending Web page queries and responses through is another matter. ZKS believes that "untraceable surfing" is an important business model...and for this sort of app they need PipeNet-like bandwidth. And so on. I wish e-mail allowed us to draw pictures. IMO, any analysis of breaking mixes should be heavily-centered around economic analysis. This is not as heretical as it sounds. Game theory of both main flavors--matrix game theory of the Von Neuman/Morgenstern/Nash type and combinatorial game theory of the Conway/Berlenkamp/Guy type--often involves payoffs, costs, and other economic issues. IMO, there is no reason crypto cannot easily co-opt such approaches. At the most trivial level, work factor is a fundamentally economic issue. For mix-nets and other Cypherpunkish things, economic analysis is everything. > >Well, this is what I get for trying to moderate myself. Everything you say >is correct - of course. I actually agree with you! I mentioned this >because I wanted to avoid playing the part of a "theoretical Cassandra," >which is something I do too often. (In fact, if I'm not mistaken, that's >part of what Tim's response about different adversary models attempts to >speak to - the fact that traditional cryptographic models assume a >maximally powerful adversary, while we might want a finer grained >hierarchy of adversaries and their effects...) Yes, as noted above. Pure crypto is often treated as a pure math exercise, akin to finding "existence" proofs of the sort we see standard problems (travelling salesman, Hamiltonian cycle, etc.). But crypto is really more of an N-party game, with Alice and Bob (and maybe others) making moves and countermoves. (This is one reason many such games are in an important sense "harder" than being merely NP-complete.) The moves and countermoves, and the hidden knowledge (*), are similar to the evolutionary process of building and attacking castles and other fortifications. Siege engines, better walls, traps, moats, economic isolation, etc. (* A standard assumption--it probably has a name that I have forgotten--is that the attacker of a cipher has complete knowledge except for the key. That is, he can take the cipher back to his lab and attack it with everything he's got except for the key itself. This is sort of the Basic Modern Assumption. Security through obscurity is deprecated (because, practically, it falls long before the other attacks). However, even in crypto we find things like "tamper-responding systems," which alter the equation: there is now a cost in attacking such a system, as the adversay _knows_ the attack is occuring and may take steps in response. Again, N-party games.) Pardon this rambling above. I expect Dave and Bill and some others know where this is going. Really, this is a call for a "new paradigm" in crypto. More later. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From tom at ricardo.de Thu Dec 28 03:08:35 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 12:08:35 +0100 Subject: About 5yr. log retention References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001220092303.01dff150@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001223141313.02188e98@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001227112219.01b57898@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <3A4B1F33.5B1C995F@ricardo.de> "James A. Donald" wrote: > At 11:44 AM 12/27/2000 +0100, Tom Vogt wrote: > > *IF* killing people (this way) is the definition of evil, and there > > is no other way to be evil but by being a murderer, *THEN* you are > > perfectly right. > > I am merely using murder as the most extreme and unambiguous form of > harm. no, you are not. you are using a very specific form of murder as your "objective fact" which determines evil. how many more are there, for other forms of murder, for other forms of harm? for evil without suffering? > The word "evil" has two senses. Harm suffered (morally neutral > sense of the word "evil") and harm unjustifiably and willfully done, or the > danger of such harm. (Moral sense of the word "evil") moral, by definition, is a function of culture. and the first case has already been kicked out dozens of times (because it includes accidents). besides, it's not at all neutral - some cultures consider certain forms of suffering as good (including some xian sects). > Situations often arise where it is not obvious what is "unjustifiable" and > "willful", where such judgments are necessarily subjective, but in most of > the cases that we care about, most of the time, it is perfectly > objective. Someone is going about his own business, and out of the blue, > someone robs him, assaults him, or someone denounces him as a class enemy, > race enemy, class traitor, race traitor, etc. in the extreme cases, things are obvious, which is NOT the same thing as being objective. just because the sky is obviously blue doesn't mean it's an objective fact. in fact, "the sky" doesn't even exist. now, to drag this thing a little bit closer to the topic, the interesting cases are those which are NOT extreme. what about the movie/record mafia and other control freaks? are they "evil"? they're not (yet) killing anyone, but they're surely doing harm (ask the people involved in the DeCSS case who've spent a couple thousand bucks on defending themselves). and more specifically: where is the line where they've become or will become "evil"? a good point was made by bruce perens on a /. forum: we cry murder when someone attacks the tools (decss, peacefire, napster, ...) instead of those who abuse them to do bad things (pirates etc). on the other hand, we are outraged about stuff like the recent IBM plans to encrypt harddrives - i.e. the tool, even before anyone has done anything bad with it. we're all a little israeli/arab. calling our opponents "evil" is just a tool of psychological warfare. From boo at datashopper.dk Thu Dec 28 04:29:47 2000 From: boo at datashopper.dk (Bo Elkjaer) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:29:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: Microsofts new crypto patent Message-ID: United States Patent 6,163,841 Venkatesan , et al. December 19, 2000 Technique for producing privately authenticatable cryptographic signatures and for authenticating such signatures Abstract A technique for generating, for a given message to be signed, an authentic cryptographic signature that can be authenticated, by a recipient of the signed message, as having originated from a signor of the message; and appropriately authenticating such a signature. Specifically, this technique, given a message, such as, e.g., a numerical product copy identifier (83, 93), forms an authentic signature (87, 97), based on public-key cryptosystem, through use of generator value selected from points on an elliptic curve over a finite field. The authentic signature is generated using the generator value in conjunction with three keys; namely, a public key, a private key and a secret key, and thus substantially increases the security associated with cryptographic signatures generated through a conventional two-key public-key cryptosystem. A unique product copy indicia can be formed by concatenating the identifier, for a given product copy, with its corresponding authentic signature. During subsequent user installation of that copy to a computer, the user enters the indicia when prompted by execution of an installation program which, in turn, privately authenticates the signature contained in the indicia in order to continue or prematurely terminate the installation. Inventors: Venkatesan; Ramarathnam R. (Bellevue, WA); Montgomery; Peter L. (San Rafael, CA) Assignee: Microsoft Corporation (Redmond, WA) Appl. No.: 102851 Filed: June 23, 1998 Link: (May be wrapped into garbage. Use patented cut'n paste technology to restore) http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,163,841'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,163,841&RS=PN/6,163,841 Yours Bo Elkjaer, Denmark -- [ ... Bevar naturen: Sylt et egern... <-- ] From bear at sonic.net Thu Dec 28 14:02:54 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:02:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: >At 3:56 AM -0500 12/28/00, dmolnar wrote: >> >>I'm in the midddle of composing a reply to Tim's message (which is getting >>bigger every time I sit down to finish it, ominously enough). > >Sounds good to me! > >>One of the >>points that has popped into my mind so far is that while we've had >>academic crypto research since the 80s, thanks to Rivest, Shamir, Aldeman, >>Diffie, Hellman, and others willing to defy the NSA, we have _not_ had a >>similar tradition of commercial cryptography - or at least, not a >>tradition of companies obtaining money for cryptographic *protocols* as >>opposed to ciphers. Not enough energy by half has been focused on protocols. I think there's probably a good set of programs to be written here. Basically, I'm thinking in terms of the old unix philosophy -- "A good program does exactly one thing, and does it well.". If somebody designs a good set of command-line programs, which produce output usable by each other so that they can be piped together in useful ways on a unix command line, then protocols should be easy to implement as shell scripts. But a proper building block would have to be scriptable from the word "go." You'd have to fix it so that anything it could do, at all, it could do "in a straight run". A command line, a command file, whatever. And you'd have to do it so your keys didn't wind up in unencrypted batch files. Maybe a reference to keys' locations in an encrypted file system would be what went on the command line. Such energy as has been focused on protocols has been at the level of applications -- basically fixing them in source code so the users can't as easily pick them apart and stick them back together again different. Hmmm. More later. Some ideas are percolating through my head but they're not very well developed. Bear From sales at dsfinternet.com Thu Dec 28 14:49:24 2000 From: sales at dsfinternet.com (sales at dsfinternet.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:49:24 Subject: Welcome to portalsa2z.com Message-ID: <20001228194924.21933.qmail@portalsa2z.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sunder at sunder.net Thu Dec 28 13:05:22 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:05:22 -0500 Subject: The future of Evil Software Message-ID: <3A4BAB12.DDA7015D@sunder.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/15708.html Microsoft tentacles squirm deeper into software hosting By: Thomas C Greene in Washington Posted: 28/12/2000 at 11:14 GMT ... Don't be fooled by the chirpy half-truths in the company press release, ... Utter rubbish. ... So Redmond owns the software you use and controls access to your data. It's for your benefit, after all; it's cheaper than owning it, and you do love a bargain, don't you? It's more secure too, we are told, because you communicate directly via a pre-encrypted client-to-client link in which you have no opportunity to stuff things up. Hell, you don't even know or have access to the key -- and what could be more secure than that? ... ... it's unfortunate that your data has to be stored on the M$ trusted network along with the software you use, but this could not be helped. Your PC no longer needs, or even has, a hard drive. It has, instead, a non-volatile ROM chip which identifies all the software you're eligible to be billed for using, the amount of time you've spent playing with it, and your credit details. It's brilliant, but God help you if there's a stuff-up. ... -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From jamesd at echeque.com Thu Dec 28 18:19:48 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:19:48 -0800 Subject: About 5yr. log retention In-Reply-To: <3A4B1F33.5B1C995F@ricardo.de> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20001208091355.01fa1a18@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001211080035.0210dde0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001212085044.0238b4b8@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001213080937.02050318@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001214085114.01be13d0@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001215212621.02044248@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001218192630.01e3a568@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001219092904.01aa8c60@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001220092303.01dff150@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001223141313.02188e98@shell11.ba.best.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20001227112219.01b57898@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001228180443.01f9ab10@shell11.ba.best.com> -- Tom Vogt: > > > *IF* killing people (this way) is the definition of evil, and > > > there is no other way to be evil but by being a murderer, *THEN* > > > you areperfectly right. James A. Donald: > > I am merely using murder as the most extreme and unambiguous example of harm. Tom Vogt: > no, you are not. Yes I am. I know what I meant, and I am fairly sure that I know what I wrote. > you are using a very specific form of murder as your "objective > fact" which determines evil. how many more are there, for other > forms of murder, for other forms of harm? for evil without suffering? There cannot be evil without harm, or at least the threat and potential for harm. "Evil" in the morally neutral sense means suffering and/or harm. To do evil in the moral sense is one must cause suffering or harm, and to be evil one must cause the threat or potential for suffering and or harm. Of course not every harm that one causes is evil though most are (the classic counter example being self defence) but every evil requires a corresponding harm. They do not mean quite the same thing, but harm usually implies evil, and evil always implies harm. If no harm, then no foul. > > The word "evil" has two senses. Harm suffered (morally neutral > > sense of the word "evil") and harm unjustifiably and willfully > > done, or the danger of such harm. (Moral sense of the word > > "evil") > moral, by definition, is a function of culture Bullshit. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG mJMcc+5SQQU3OQSanbPHsba6Mgc6Mt/9vlZKmkzT 4cnCEPiaZRM+Nu2mymijPst+rxNfVCZ3+1i5ZAT4v From info at giganetstore.com Thu Dec 28 10:38:24 2000 From: info at giganetstore.com (info at giganetstore.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:38:24 -0000 Subject: 2001@giganetstore.com Message-ID: <076d32438181cc0WWWSHOPENS@wwwshopens.giganetstore.com> Se pretender visualizar esta informação numa página do seu browser em formato HTML, basta clicar aqui . Estimado Cliente, O nosso compromisso para consigo é servi-lo cada vez melhor e dar-lhe um atendimento de excelência. Ao longo do ano que agora termina fizémos todos os possíveis para que encontrásse na nossa loja tudo o que precisava: a maior e mais diversa gama de produtos, das melhores marcas, aos melhores preços, e as novidades mais recentes e " fresquinhas " do mercado. Para o próximo ano iremos continuar a fazê-lo e em antecipação deixamos-lhe aqui, com apenas alguns exemplos, uma antevisão do que poderá encontrar na giganetstore.com , no domínio das novas tecnologias. PC 2001 1º Semestre 2001 Pentium IV, 2Ghz, 100GB 400Mhz, 1GB SDRAM Placa Gráfica-64MB Placa de Som-EMU10KI Monitor LCD 17" S.O. Windows 2001 ( Whistler ) Nokia Communicator 9210 1ºSemestre 2001 Ecrã a cores 16MB HSCSD Acess. à internet via Wap ou HTML Aplicações videoplayer,imagens Texto e Folha de cálculo Samsung SGHQ100 1ºSemestre 2001 GPRS email acessível ecrã LCD 128X128 Marcação por voz Compositor de Musica Wap Gestão de informação Nintendo Game Cube Finais de 2001 A 128 Bits da Nintendo propõe-se dar luta renhida às suas rivais e promete ser a máquina com a maior jogabilidade disponível. A Nintedo usa aqui toda a sua experiência para garantir o êxito. Playstation 2 Finais de Fevereiro A mais desejada das consolas no momento, faz da sua dupla funcionalidade de consola e leitor de DVD a sua grande arma. Mas como consola não deixa os seus créditos por mãos alheias. Microsoft X-Box Finais de 2001 A mais recente aposta da maior empresa de software do mundo. Tem também parceiros de peso e toda uma máquina de promoção, prontos para tornar este mais um sucesso comercial. Entraremos também na era dos e-produtos, apartir do ano 2001 a giganetstore.com irá dár-lhe a possibilidade de adquirir produtos em formato digital. Entre na era digital. Desejamos-lhe um Bom Ano de 2001 e voltaremos ao seu contacto no próximo milénio. Até para o Ano !!! PPara retirar o seu email desta mailing list deverá entrar no nosso site http://www.giganetstore.com , ir à edição do seu registo e retirar a opção de receber informação acerca das nossas promoções e novos serviços. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 6484 bytes Desc: not available URL: From needbulkisp at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 17:52:05 2000 From: needbulkisp at yahoo.com (needbulkisp at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:52:05 -0700 Subject: I need a bulk friendly ISP.... Message-ID: <200012290155.RAA13081@cyberpass.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 292 bytes Desc: not available URL: From commerce at home.com Thu Dec 28 15:55:04 2000 From: commerce at home.com (Me) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:55:04 -0500 Subject: More half-baked social planning ideas References: Message-ID: <02d101c07129$99d90b70$0100a8c0@golem> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim May" > shakespeare:borg::locutus:_____ :shakespeare? From needbulkisp at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 17:59:38 2000 From: needbulkisp at yahoo.com (needbulkisp at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:59:38 -0700 Subject: I need a bulk friendly ISP.... Message-ID: <200012290138.RAA12718@toad.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 292 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lawprobe at lawprobe.com Thu Dec 28 18:42:19 2000 From: lawprobe at lawprobe.com (lawprobe at lawprobe.com) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:42:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: Finally--Online Research you can Afford!! 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From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Thu Dec 28 17:13:13 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 20:13:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > Not enough energy by half has been focused on protocols. > I think there's probably a good set of programs to be > written here. While we're at it, check out this web page http://www.cs.nyu.edu/cs/dept_info/course_home_pages/fall96/G22.3033.02/ Avi Rubin and Matt Franklin's course on crypto protocols. > Basically, I'm thinking in terms of the old unix philosophy -- > "A good program does exactly one thing, and does it well.". > If somebody designs a good set of command-line programs, which > produce output usable by each other so that they can be piped > together in useful ways on a unix command line, then protocols > should be easy to implement as shell scripts. But a proper First you need to identity a set of common building blocks! I thought about this briefly a year or two ago. Then realized that many protocols for, say, "digital cash" do not actually share many components with each other. Sure, all of them may have a public-key cryptosystem, but the exact requirements are different...and sometimes a protocol needs specific properties of a cryptosystem in order to work. My programming languages professor recently pointed me to a paper describing a library for doing smart contracts and options in Haskell. (I'll post the reference later; I'm having trouble finding it). They put together a library of combinators, which together could be used to write real contracts. Even have a semantics for this beast. It seems that the reason they could do that is that the contracts they're looking at decompose nicely into distinct parts. It's not clear to me how to do that for crypto protocols. Maybe a place to start would be to go through a bunch of papers on crypto protocols and analyse the all the "Alice sends to Bob" messages. See what commonalities pop out. -David From weidai at eskimo.com Thu Dec 28 17:49:50 2000 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 20:49:50 -0500 Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: ; from tcmay@got.net on Thu, Dec 28, 2000 at 12:01:20PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001228174933.D24180@eskimo.com> On Thu, Dec 28, 2000 at 12:01:20PM -0500, Tim May wrote: > Probably the most basic motivation Eric Hughes and I had for calling > together a bunch of Bay Area folks in '92 was because, in a 3-day > series of talks we'd had earlier in the spring, we concluded that a > lot of academic crypto was ripe for conversion into "building blocks." > > (Building blocks, protocols, modules, libraries...) > > Well, we were half-right. Tim, I've seen you mention this issue several times, but don't remember if I replied to it before. Being a library writer, I think the main reason there aren't a lot of higher-level building blocks in crypto libraries is that in order to use a higher level crypto, you have to understand it at a fairly low level and know how and why it works in terms of number theory and ciphers and hash functions. This is in contrast to lower-level building blocks like ciphers, where you don't really need to understand a cipher at the bit-twiddling level in order to use it. So you can't really treat higher-level crypto as black boxes. It's also hard to design interfaces to them so they plug in together nicely for all the different purposes you might want to use them for. Finally, if you do understand how they work and have a good low-level crypto library they're typically not hard to implement, espeically if you just want to implement them for a specific purpose and not as highly reusable components. So I think there are several good reasons why we don't have a high-level crypto library. From kirannapit at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 22:56:43 2000 From: kirannapit at yahoo.com (kiran Napit) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 22:56:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: maurers algorithm Message-ID: <20001229065643.23534.qmail@web3701.mail.yahoo.com> Hi there please provide me with maurers deterministic algorithm for generating strong primes as fast as possible. If possible please give me the implementation of the same. thank u kiran. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From turboztt at hotmail.com Thu Dec 28 13:09:54 2000 From: turboztt at hotmail.com (=?windows-1256?B?5s/kx+Qgx+Hmz+TH5A==?=) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 01:09:54 +0400 Subject: proxy Message-ID: how can i suscribe please ? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 335 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Thu Dec 28 23:18:10 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 02:18:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > I hear the focus of Mojo Nation is shifting from "better living > through piracy," to something more mundane involving deals to deliver > video content. If so, much of the motivation to be absolutely robust > will go away. Sad, if true. So maybe it takes away the incentive for the original Mojo folks. So? That may actually be a good thing, if it gets the technology spread far and wide so that other people can produce an absolutely robust Mojo++ which rides on top of Mojo. Plus it raises the profile of these kinds of services. Today's teenager reading about Mojo on slashdot (or wherever) is going to be tomorrow's data haven architect... > I think Bill was a bit harsh. There are some _economic_ issues > involved, as usual. So long as the "value of what is being sent > through remailers" is LESS THAN "the cost of subverting remailers," > they will tend not to be subverted. Yes, BUT I think one of the reasons why a maximally powerful adversary model is so appealing, however, is that it sidesteps the question of evaluating "value of what is being sent through remailers." If you can prove security against a maximally powerful adversary, then you don't have to answer that question - no matter how much it's worth to the adversary, it won't win. If you take this tack, then you seem to start worrying about what the adversary wants -- and as Terry Ritter often points out on sci.crypt, you don't know much about your adversary. Plus putting a "value" on what is sent through remailers seems to require that you be sensitive to the way the system is used after it's designed. This is *not* to discourage an economic analysis, but to point out a potential benefit to the "modern" approach. It wouldn't be much of a benefit, EXCEPT that in encryption and digital signatures, we have actually been able to achieve security against maximal adversaries (or at least probabilistic polytime ones assuming some problems are hard). > > But crypto is really more of an N-party game, with Alice and Bob (and > maybe others) making moves and countermoves. (This is one reason many > such games are in an important sense "harder" than being merely > NP-complete.) Hmm. I know of some results on some two-player games which shows that playing them "optimally" is PSPACE-complete. The two I can think of, however - Hex and Go - are perfect information games. I'm not sure how hiding information changes things. Maybe one way to cast crypto as a game would be to consider protocol verification. "Here's a state machine. Here's Alice's state. Here's Bob's state. Can an eavesdropper learn their shared key if he has the following moves...?" > (* A standard assumption--it probably has a name that I have > forgotten--is that the attacker of a cipher has complete knowledge > except for the key. That is, he can take the cipher back to his lab Kerchoff's principle, I think. -David From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Thu Dec 28 23:23:53 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 02:23:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: maurers algorithm In-Reply-To: <20001229065643.23534.qmail@web3701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Are you sure you don't mean Maurer's algorithm for generating primes together with certificates of their primality? You can find that in the _Handbook of Applied Cryptography_ http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/ or on Maurer's publications page ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/pub/publications/papers/ti/isc/wwwisc/Maurer95a.ps see also Preda Mihailescu's page http://www.inf.ethz.ch/~mihailes/ I believe that Wei Dai implemented the algorithm; it may be part of Crypto++. I don't know of a deterministic algorithm by Maurer for generating strong primes. (Wouldn't you want such an algorithm to be randomized, so as to obtain new primes?) Are you sure you don't mean a deterministic primality test? -David On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, kiran Napit wrote: > Hi there > please provide me with maurers deterministic > algorithm for generating strong primes as fast as > possible. If possible please give me the > implementation > of the same. > thank u kiran. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > From bogus@does.not.exist.com Fri Dec 29 03:33:18 2000 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 03:33:18 -0800 Subject: Your Train Is About To Come In!!! Message-ID: <200012292029.MAA03416@toad.com> http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/aliqs Greeting: Going Platinum " Welcome " An enormous amount of time has been spent developing this web site along with the program that lies within and are truly convince d that it will be one of the best things that has ever happened to you... http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/aliqs Going Platinum is a new concept, a new idea and a new philosophy. This innovative program offers countless benefits as well as a means to dramatically improve your financial position without any mentionable effort or monetary commitment. We're not just talking pocket change either. Make no mistake about it; this is the real thing... The benefits that you will enjoy as a Going Platinum member are many ! At the top of the list for obvious reasons, is the sizeable income that you can earn as a member of Going Platinum. Both the Going Platinum Community (scheduled to launch January 15, 2001) and the Going Platinum Affiliate Program (fully functional now) provide you with the ability to capitalize on the value of your presence on the Internet and your value as a Going Platinum member. C H E C K I T O U T What if you told 10 friends and they each told 5? You'd make $3,510.00 for the month with just your 1 free (FREE)Position, $17,550.00 if you had 5 Positions and $35,100.00 for the month if you had 10 Positions. 1. Time is of the essence, get signed up today! 2. Go to; http://www.goingplatinum.com/member/aliqs Copy and past into your address bar the url address above. Once your signed up I'll be helping you to signup new people. If you can afford it become a GPAP for the $25.00 one time fee and get a jump on earnings in the program! This must be done before January 15, 2001, or it won't be available to you! Once you're registered and setup, send me an email confirmation to "aliqs at goingplatinum.com" and I'll send you a list of 1000 email addresses for free that you can use to signup new members. Sincerely Aliqs From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Fri Dec 29 01:20:44 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 04:20:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: your favorite protocols Message-ID: Hi, In view of the recent thread ("That 70's Crypto Show") turning into yet another call for protocol building blocks -- and Wei Dai pointing out very sensibly the problems involved in turning protocols into building blocks -- I think it might help to compile a list of our favorite protocols and problems. Then maybe we can see what common components they share, if any. Finally see if we can make some progress in overcoming the problems that Wei Dai mentioned, or if it really isn't worth the bother. I can think of key exchange - See P1363 project on this digital cash - Chaum fair exchange, 2party only - Merkle, Goldreich et al, others fair exchange, 3rd party - Micali's "invisible post offices" anonymous e-mail - Chaum anonymous web surfing - Freedom/Onion Routing/Crowds/Hordes abuse-free contract singing - Jakobsson/Garay/McKenzie middlemen and contracts - Franklin and Durfee what else? -David From auto58194 at hushmail.com Fri Dec 29 02:43:16 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 05:43:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] Message-ID: <200012291059.CAA19281@user5.hushmail.com> For those who care, take a look at http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/10/opinion/10KRUG.html which is an op-ed piece by an MIT Economics prof. describing the California situation in the same terms I have. He cites a paper which in turn cites evidence that artificial shortages were previously created in the UK (1996) and California (1998 & 1999). Unfortunately no detail, but it is more than just random conspiracy theory. While no doubt a good number of the readers of this list will consider him to be a Communist from the People's Republic of Cambridge, perhaps most will at least admit he knows more than basic economics 101. Even if you don't care about natural gas or California's deregulation brownout, it is a good example of why "free" markets, economies, societies, etc. don't really work. From weidai at eskimo.com Fri Dec 29 02:49:57 2000 From: weidai at eskimo.com (Wei Dai) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 05:49:57 -0500 Subject: your favorite protocols In-Reply-To: ; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 04:25:05AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001229024949.B476@eskimo.com> On Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 04:25:05AM -0500, dmolnar wrote: > In view of the recent thread ("That 70's Crypto Show") turning into yet > another call for protocol building blocks -- and Wei Dai pointing out very > sensibly the problems involved in turning protocols into building blocks > -- I think it might help to compile a list of our favorite protocols and > problems. Then maybe we can see what common components they share, if any. > Finally see if we can make some progress in overcoming the problems that > Wei Dai mentioned, or if it really isn't worth the bother. Earlier you mentioned another problem that I left out, which is that even when two protocols use the same kind of component, they'll use subtly different versions of it to obtain certain performance or security properties or just to "fit in" with the rest of the protocol. I think eventually the problem will turn into how to redesign all of these protocols to use only components from a standard set. Rather than wait for that, I think anyone who wants to implement a protocol should just do it with the currently available tools. My perspective may be warped, but I think even without higher level building blocks, the crypto part of such a project is easy compared to other problems like OS integration, scaling, UI design, business planning, marketing, etc., etc. The fact that most interesting crypto protocols are not being used is almost certainly due to a combination of these other problems rather than the difficulty of implementing the crypto. > middlemen and contracts - Franklin and Durfee Do you have a citation for Franklin and Durfee? Neither Google nor CiteSeer turned up anything. From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Fri Dec 29 03:17:07 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 06:17:07 -0500 Subject: your favorite protocols In-Reply-To: <20001229024949.B476@eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, Wei Dai wrote: > > middlemen and contracts - Franklin and Durfee > > Do you have a citation for Franklin and Durfee? Neither Google nor > CiteSeer turned up anything. Probably because I didn't give the correct title of the paper. It's the same one I referred to in a previous message "Distribution Chain Security" M. Franklin and G. Durfee ACM CCS 2000 http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/332962.html It's actually a not-bad example of how a "standard" crypto component is taken and then tweaked for use in a particular protocol. The standard component is a homomorphic commitment scheme designed by Cramer and Damg*rd and published in 1998. This paper shows how to use it to prove a series of contracts satisfies certain relations w/o revealing the contracts - and then adds a method to make the particular relations they care about more efficient. well, OK, "published in 1998" is not exactly "standard", but still. Now, you could try to represent this in an object-oriented language by something like "DurfeeFranklinCommitmentScheme inherits from CramerDamgardCommitmentScheme inherits from CommitmentScheme" , but I'm not sure if you could get real reuse this way. Especially since it seems that a paper can't get published for a cool idea alone - it needs to have some real crypto in it. So most new papers will have an AuthorAAuthorBCommitmentScheme. (Another example: the "Identity Escrow" paper in Crypto '98 by Kilian and Petrank. The idea - extend 'key escrow' to identities - is pretty straightforward. "Anyone on this list" could have come up with that. What separates the authors from "anyone on this list" is the fact that they came up with the idea *and* a reasonable and interesting crypto way to do it, together with a notion of security and a proof that they meet that notion.) -David From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Dec 29 09:24:05 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:24:05 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <200012291059.CAA19281@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001229092137.01cba758@shell11.ba.best.com> -- > For those who care, take a look at > http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/10/opinion/10KRUG.html which is an > op-ed piece by an MIT Economics prof. describing the California > situation in the same terms I have. He cites a paper which in turn > cites evidence that artificial shortages were previously created in > the UK (1996) and California (1998 & 1999). unfortunately no > detail, but it is more than just random conspiracy theory. He describes the california system as "deregulated", but the fact that it takes many years to get permission to build a power plant -- that it takes longer to get permits than to actually build one, is undoubtedly a contributing factor to the crisis. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG JXy269kdEdLHKEQ2b/5GVMHAZPjYHXf7xg8R1IyY 44A7PM67XbbrgFVYUWSF3uYbJ6dBoiZ6gwM+yy4xp From vinnie at vmeng.com Fri Dec 29 09:55:58 2000 From: vinnie at vmeng.com (Vinnie Moscaritolo) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:55:58 -0800 Subject: Reminder... Mac Crypto Jan 29th - Feb 1st Message-ID: Hi all; Below is a preliminary list of talks scheduled for the Millennium Edition of the Mac Crypto/ Internet commerce workshop. The conference will be held at Apple's Deanza 3 Auditorium from Jan 29th - Feb 1st . I have had a lot of people propose talks but only a few have actually sent me their abstracts. If you are on the list below and would like to correct the abstracts, please send me the updated text. If you are not on the list but plan to talk, then send me the abstract now. thanks. ------------------ Jonathan D. Callas Counterpane Internet Security "The Effect of Anti-Circumvention Provisions on Security" One of the properties of digital Intellectual Property (IP) is that it can be easily reproduced, modified, and transferred. In response, IP owners have created creating new security technologies for controlling the digital works. Inevitably, this creates an opportunity for those who can circumvent those technologies. ------------------- Will Price, Director of Engineering PGP Security, Inc. "PGP Future Directions" Will Price will discuss new technologies in PGP such as Key Reconstruction, Instant Messaging encryption, PGP for Wireless, and future directions of PGP on the MacOS platform. ---------------------- Jean-Luc GIRAUD "Security Architect". Gemplus (www.gemplus.com), "Introduction to Smartcards" This tutorial gives a general overview of the smartcard technology and its added value for cryptography and security. Classical smartcard concepts (card life cycle, smartcard structure, required infrastructure,...) are covered along with recent ones like open cards (Javacard,...). New applications and potentail security enhancements to MacOS X are given. Finally, the current state of the art in smartcard security is described. A lot of ressources are listed to give attendees the opportunity to access more detailed information. ------------------ Charles Evans , Partner, BEK Ventures, "Secure, Real-Time Financial Transactions Using WebFunds on the Mac." The talk will center on real-world transfer of value in the form of either a) exchange among commodity-back electronic currencies or b) trading of shares in micro-enterprises. -- Vinnie Moscaritolo KF6WPJ ITCB-IMSH http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ PGP: 3F903472C3AF622D5D918D9BD8B100090B3EF042 ------------------------------------------------------- WARNING: POLITICALLY INCORRECT AREA All P.C. Personnel entering these premises will encounter gravely offensive behavior and opinions. (SEC4623. Ministry of political incorrection security act of 1995) RAMPANT INSENSITIVITY AUTHORIZED --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart at pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639 From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 29 08:06:02 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:06:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: > On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > >> I have long felt that we could comfortably shrink government > >> if open markets were established to help settle such conflicts. > > > >Open markets don't settle conflicts, they barter goods. > > And most conflicts are over goods, if you think about them > that way. Which is irrelevant in this scenario since it isn't about goods and isn't open to a 'market' solution. > The tree is property, which encroaches into the > volume near a neighbor's house. Conflict arises because it > was never spelled out in the first place who owned that > volume. If it had been, the choices are simpler and less > ambiguous: get out of it, buy it, sell it, or charge rent > on it. Really? Looks like more handwaving. How did those previous standards arise? I thought anarchist political systems had a mechanism to resolve 'property' conflicts? What are the sorts of 'standards' that anarchists suggest for resolving this sort of conflict? How do they build, and what are they, their litmus tests? Be that as it may however, this still doesn't resolve it, even with a priori standards. Standards aren't, and can't be, completely comprehensive. Let's assume we use the standard 'cutting the plane' definition used in trespass cases. In other words, once you've been advised to 'stay off my property' even waving your hand in the air above, but across the property line, is considered trespass. However, this clearly can't extend without bounds, otherwise the aircraft industry would be shut down trying to get over-flight permission from the bezillion (well really less than 300M but it's sufficient in this case) property owners. Now, when the tree limb crosses the property line, it becomes the other persons property. But does that give the person the right to chop the entire tree down if the trunk is on the property line? No, the point here is the 'maintenance of property' which isn't covered in free market theory because we're not shopping around for something, we're trying to keep some part of what we have (eg nice tree, undamaged roof). And those sorts of responsibilities are not resolvable through market forces because they're not a 'negotiable' aspect to the property (eg feeding your pet). After all, whose fault is it if the limb impacts the roof? The person who owns the roof? The owner of the tree? If it's the owner of the tree, just how far are my responsibilities to go with respect to maintenance of your(!) property? Why does anarchic theory not recognize this aspect of the philosophy? Why is this important facet ignored when 'property' is defined? > The factory is property, which encroaches into air quality. Which is a perfect example of why anarchic and libertarien theory fail. By the time the 'market' even has knowledge of the problem the factory has already done the damage (ala Love Canal or Thalidomide). > Conflicts arise because it was never spelled out in the > first place who owned the right to what quality of air. That's because there is NO fundamental way to do it. It is as impossible (and for the same reasons I might add) to do as to describe a 'universal logic verifyer'. [ related stuff snipped ] ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 29 08:13:00 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:13:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200012172136.eBHLaIC11365@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: Oh, what happened to the free market? Let those who flourish be the ones who can manage the new 'species'... CDR:'s in the header, messages too long, messages of the right format, not using the right font, doing 'forwards' instead of 'reply to', not editing replies according to the 'group will', using different editors which impliment different attachment protocols, etc., etc. I say screw all you over bearing anal retentive techno-luddites... ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > Tim May writes: > > > Folks, this increase in MIME attachments is getting out of hand. > > People are reading this list on a variety of machines, from PDAs to > > Amigas to VT100s to Unix boxes to Windows. > > I have a solution. > > I keep MIME turned off, and if the 7-bit representation of the > message is not instantly recognizable as substantially English, > I hit delete. > > Sometimes, if I am in a bad mood, I hit delete upon seeing the > large "M" next to the message on the index, and don't even bother > reading it. > > If the MIME infestation proliferates, this process can be automated. > > -- > Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" > From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 29 08:16:17 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:16:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001217143606.01ea0bb0@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, James A. Donald wrote: > If running a business is a privilege, then of course it will be restricted > to the privileged, which is exactly what we see in the more extreme social > democracies, where the people running the show are usually the lineal > descendents of those who got their start at the time of Napoleon. Demonstrate that a 'business' is a right in the same class as life, liberty, pursuit of happiness? It is clear a business is a form of 'pursuit of happiness' but that doesn't make it equivalent. Rights are something you as an individual have by mere existance. A 'business' can't exist in that environment, there is no 'market'. Do people have a right to work? No. They have a right to try to work. They can do that by starting their own business or working in somebody elses. But neither are a 'right' in the sense you want to use them. People have a right to pursuit happiness, why? Because they are already unhappy, why? Because if they don't get off their ass something will come along and eat them. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From INQUIRE at CAREEREXPANSION.COM Fri Dec 29 10:20:57 2000 From: INQUIRE at CAREEREXPANSION.COM (INQUIRE at CAREEREXPANSION.COM) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:20:57 Subject: Opportunity Message-ID: <200012291725.JAA18370@cyberpass.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1968 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 29 08:26:59 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:26:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: <014301c068b7$d3dcf130$0100a8c0@golem> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Me wrote: > I would like to defend libertarianism, I don't believe I can > defend anarchy. I don't believe a system that lacks a government > operating military and judicial services would be efficient. > > I would respond to your claim that libertarianism is 'fascism at > best and socialism at worst', but I can't even come close to > guessing what you might be basing that upon. Cool. I've gone over it before but it's a pain in the ass to have to search the archives. I'll elaborate per your feedback... Liberatarians are overly focused on 'the cost', wanting to eliminate all non-focused effort and cost. This as a goal within a suite of goals isn't so bad, however as the primary goal it is very bad. Why? Because without a basic equality not based on cost there is no way to protect those who don't have. And simply not having is not sufficient reason to ignore the needs of human beings. I do not see libertarians addresing this aspect of their philosophy. The general view I see on the individual level is 'screw 'em, if they can't pay let 'em hang'. This simply is not acceptable. It denegrates self and society. Libertarians are ignorant of the basic concepts of 'morality', it is not a factor in economic equations and is therefore safe to ignore. An example is prisons. Libertarians want to conver them into profit making business while at the same time completely ignoring what a prison is and why it exists and ultimately who is responsible for it. A prison is where society puts persons who don't behave accroding to some stricture. I believe details as to the particular stricture are irrelevant at this point. As a resul the people responsible for prisons are the individual citizens, not 'the government' which is a convenient straw man argument (which I don't see Libertarians even recognizing let alone addressing). As a result the cost of that detainment should be born by those individual citizens directly. It is a function and responsiblity of their citizenship. It is fascist because it wants to, in effect, centrally manage everyones resources to the benefit of all. It is potentially socialist because of the lack of recognition of fundamental civil liberties and the consequent abuse that can result as a consequence. It is cheaper after all if everyone has only a couple of choices for each decision. This minimizes the secondary market costs (and potentialy some primary ones as well). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 29 08:28:27 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:28:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001217223322.00b02100@idiom.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: > Besides, Jim, as a Texan your tradition role in discussions of > natural gas policies is supposed to be to say > "let the bastards freeze in the dark" :-) Blipverts strike again. That IS exactly what I said, though not in those words. They made the decision to let others make the decision. Don't bitch to me about how unfair it is when they don't do what you think is best. There are no angels among men. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Fri Dec 29 08:36:05 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:36:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: This is why a free society is evil. In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001219125012.033bf6b0@popserver.panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Duncan Frissell wrote: > Congruency of world view is unnecessary if coercion becomes difficult or > impossible. If people can move and communicate and trade in spite of the > desire of some others to prevent those exchanges, then they exist in a > mutual state of anarchy without regard to their mutual opinions. Nobody said congruencly of world view was a requirement. Looking at it like this is actually incorrect. The issue is NOT congruency (hence proving my socialist/fascist point prima facia) but rather TOLERANCE of existing world views. Without some mechanism to control the violence and inherent xenophobia of human psychology being able to 'move around unhindered' becomes THE problem. Anarchy would be the Jews and the Arabs going at it without the UN and other mediating forces. This is a PERFECT example of why anarchy requires a 'socialist' world view to begin with. Anarchy would be 7 prisoners loose in Texas, who've already killed at least one policeman and commited several robberies, with no police force or centralized C4I mechanisms. Anarchy = "Don't worry, be happy!" ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sunder at sunder.net Fri Dec 29 07:46:20 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:46:20 -0500 Subject: I need a bulk friendly ISP.... References: <200012290138.RAA12718@toad.com> Message-ID: <3A4CB1CC.3CC9E4E9@sunder.net> needbulkisp at yahoo.com wrote: > > Hello! > > I'm trying to find a bulk friendly ISP, to host a very small website. > Can you help? > OR > Can you refer me to anyone? > > Thanks very much, > > HAPPY NEW YEAR! You don't need a bulk friendly ISP, you need an enema. SPAM is bad. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From gbroiles at netbox.com Fri Dec 29 10:53:57 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:53:57 -0800 Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: ; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 02:18:10AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001229105356.A11447@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 02:18:10AM -0500, dmolnar wrote: > Yes, BUT > I think one of the reasons why a maximally powerful adversary model is so > appealing, however, is that it sidesteps the question of evaluating "value > of what is being sent through remailers." The other reason it's appealing is that it lets academics consider their work finished when they've constructed a logical argument or proof, without considering implementation details, because the "maximally powerful adversary model" in practice seems to include a maximally competent implementer of the design under consideration. Which is great for academics, but in the real world, software and hardware systems have defects - frequently, defects with security implications. > If you can prove security > against a maximally powerful adversary, then you don't have to answer that > question - no matter how much it's worth to the adversary, it won't win. Yes, for attacks against the strong part of the system - but that's not what sensible attackers go after. The "maximal adversary" imagined is apparently a very gentle and polite one, who can only operate on network wires, but won't consider physical penetration or torture, and in some models won't even subvert the security of the machines hosting the system. > This is *not* to discourage an economic analysis, but to point out a > potential benefit to the "modern" approach. It wouldn't be much of a > benefit, EXCEPT that in encryption and digital signatures, we have > actually been able to achieve security against maximal adversaries (or at > least probabilistic polytime ones assuming some problems are hard). But - several, if not many times - the security we've achieved has been broken, because of implementation errors on the part of creators, installers, or users. Consider the computing power assembled for the DES or RC5 cracks, instead applied to dictionary attacks versus a PGP keyring, or SSH keyfile. How long until the average user's passphrase is recovered? -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From gbroiles at netbox.com Fri Dec 29 11:16:34 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:16:34 -0800 Subject: your favorite protocols In-Reply-To: ; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 06:17:07AM -0500 References: <20001229024949.B476@eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20001229111633.B11447@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 06:17:07AM -0500, dmolnar wrote: > "Distribution Chain Security" > M. Franklin and G. Durfee > ACM CCS 2000 > http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/332962.html > > It's actually a not-bad example of how a "standard" crypto component is > taken and then tweaked for use in a particular protocol. The standard > component is a homomorphic commitment scheme designed by Cramer and > Damg*rd and published in 1998. This paper shows how to use it to prove a > series of contracts satisfies certain relations w/o revealing the > contracts - and then adds a method to make the particular relations they > care about more efficient. I realize that the original citation was meant as an example of the difficulty of reaching crypto standards, but this "smart contracts" crap is really sticking in my throat this week. It's really unfortunate that the crypto community seems determined to take words which have relatively specific and nuanced legal definitions and overload them with cartoonish definitions - the math tricks described therein are interesting, but bear no relationship to contracts as lawyers and courts understand that term. The behavior described is closer to licensing, but is unlikely to create an actual license without careful attention. The citations to support the authors' claims that "Systems to enforce digital contracts are already in place or will be available soon" are to three websites for CPRM-ish schemes - Xerox' "ContentGuard" at , Intertrust at , and SDMI, brainchild of the RIAA, at , and a print citation to an article by Mark Stefik (the person behind the Xerox and Intertrust copy protection schemes) entitled "The Bit and the Pendulum: Balancing the Interests of Stakeholders in Digital Publishing". (I'm not kidding. Those URL's - without links to specific documents - are the references which support the authors' claims about the feasibility of enforceable digital contracts.) One can guess exactly how "balanced" the outcome is likely to be where one stakeholder gets to design and implement (without reverse engineering, thanks to the DMCA) the technical apparatus which will be used to "enforce" the "contracts" between the parties. Stefik's reference to Poe's torture apparatus is perhaps more apropos than he intended. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From tom at ricardo.de Fri Dec 29 02:16:59 2000 From: tom at ricardo.de (Tom Vogt) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:16:59 +0100 Subject: cprm satire Message-ID: <3A4C649B.6B5348E3@ricardo.de> as funny as it's sad: http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=3a4beb84-00cca880 A group of technology companies have handed down a ruling saying that all consumers are guilty of piracy. The group, known as the "4C Imperial Consortium as Appointed by God" is developing CPRM (Consumer Protection Removal Methodology). From sunder at sunder.net Fri Dec 29 08:39:56 2000 From: sunder at sunder.net (sunder) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:39:56 -0500 Subject: CPRM FAQ Message-ID: <3A4CBE5C.8AA6AB77@sunder.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/15718.html Everything you ever wanted to know about CPRM, but ZDNet wouldn't tell you... By: Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco Posted: 29/12/2000 at 09:07 GMT 11. Won't an encrypted file system, or a virtual file system bypass CPRM? Of course it will. In any operating system, device driver authors are free to reject the CPRM calls made by a software application. So the OS need not store CPRM digital media. Virtual file systems simply add another rejection point at which CRPM can be bounced off the system, and you're clean. With a software libre operating system (a BSD, Linux or AtheOS) let's assume that this is more likely to happen than with a commercial operating system (Windows, MacOS, Solaris). But what then? We hear a GNU... -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_ at _sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ From bear at sonic.net Fri Dec 29 12:46:23 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:46:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20001229092137.01cba758@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > > For those who care, take a look at > > http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/10/opinion/10KRUG.html which is an > > op-ed piece by an MIT Economics prof. describing the California > > situation in the same terms I have. He cites a paper which in turn > > cites evidence that artificial shortages were previously created in > > the UK (1996) and California (1998 & 1999). unfortunately no > > detail, but it is more than just random conspiracy theory. > > >He describes the california system as "deregulated", but the fact that it >takes many years to get permission to build a power plant -- that it takes >longer to get permits than to actually build one, is undoubtedly a >contributing factor to the crisis. Odd. If it's "deregulated", why do the power companies have to ask CPUC's permission to raise rates? I don't think "deregulated" means what he thinks it means. Bear From reeza at flex.com Fri Dec 29 15:13:09 2000 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:13:09 -1000 Subject: This is why a free society is evil. (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200012172136.eBHLaIC11365@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001229130744.00c7f940@flex.com> What is truly being discussed, is adherence to a standard. A standard with the greatest cross-platform compatibility. Or would you throw out adherence to the IEEE 802.3 standard, and let all sorts of innovations sterling and ludicrous proliferate there, also? That may come, in time, but for the moment, TCP/IP reigns supreme, and list protocols are not exceptional, they are the norm. Get out & see the world Jim, there's more to it than just what you read in the Enquirer. At 10:13 AM 12/29/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >Oh, what happened to the free market? Let those who flourish be the ones >who can manage the new 'species'... > >CDR:'s in the header, messages too long, messages of the right format, not >using the right font, doing 'forwards' instead of 'reply to', not editing >replies according to the 'group will', using different editors which >impliment different attachment protocols, etc., etc. > >I say screw all you over bearing anal retentive techno-luddites... > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a > smaller group must first understand it. > > "Stranger Suns" > George Zebrowski > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > >> Tim May writes: >> >> > Folks, this increase in MIME attachments is getting out of hand. >> > People are reading this list on a variety of machines, from PDAs to >> > Amigas to VT100s to Unix boxes to Windows. >> >> I have a solution. >> >> I keep MIME turned off, and if the 7-bit representation of the >> message is not instantly recognizable as substantially English, >> I hit delete. >> >> Sometimes, if I am in a bad mood, I hit delete upon seeing the >> large "M" next to the message on the index, and don't even bother >> reading it. >> >> If the MIME infestation proliferates, this process can be automated. >> >> -- >> Eric Michael Cordian 0+ >> O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division >> "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" >> From reeza at flex.com Fri Dec 29 15:14:28 2000 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:14:28 -1000 Subject: The Cost of California Liberalism In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20001217223322.00b02100@idiom.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001229131352.00b6fb70@flex.com> At 10:28 AM 12/29/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >There are no angels among men. You'd have better luck trying to prove that no men are angels. From jamesd at echeque.com Fri Dec 29 13:17:44 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:17:44 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Re: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001229130157.019ca698@shell11.ba.best.com> -- > > > For those who care, take a look at > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/10/opinion/10KRUG.html which is > > > an op-ed piece by an MIT Economics prof. describing the > > > California situation in the same terms I have. He cites a > > > paper which in turn cites evidence that artificial shortages > > > were previously created in the UK (1996) and California (1998 & > > > 1999). unfortunately no detail, but it is more than just random > > > conspiracy theory. On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, James A. Donald wrote: > > He describes the california system as "deregulated", but the fact > > that it takes many years to get permission to build a power plant > > -- that it takes longer to get permits than to actually build one, > > is undoubtedly a contributing factor to the crisis. Ray Dillinger > Odd. If it's "deregulated", why do the power companies have to ask > CPUC's permission to raise rates? I don't think deregulated" means > what he thinks it means. What has happened is that we in California have moved from a state imposed and controlled monopoly, to a highly regulated market. This has not worked well, one of the many reasons being that those who now have to decide to build power plants are now the evil greedy developers, rather than the wise and benevolent bureaucrats, and in consequence those who want to build power plants are having great difficulty. Naturally, however, all the newspapers are entirely confident that the problem is capitalist greed. If it was not for those greedy people itching to destroy the environment by building power plants, we would have plenty of power. This is analogous to the US health care crisis. If an evil greedy capitalist health care institution decides not to give an elderly pauper triple bypass surgery, in order to retain ever greater bloated profits, that is an intolerable evil of capitalism. If, however, a rational bureaucrat decides to wisely ration bypass surgery by ensuring that it only goes to those who can truly benefit from it, that is a wonderful saving on health costs. As a result, governmental health care systems really are much better at controlling costs that regulated semi private health care systems. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 90e6UF9IrKiRsj8L3J8wgY3bcw3+zYgljEnNQxpA 4YCLYYMYEDsPsyAdXW3SXlqSzZ/KoouNTW9GP2nx/ From a.hahne at mbox318.swipnet.se Fri Dec 29 11:22:17 2000 From: a.hahne at mbox318.swipnet.se (a.hahne at mbox318.swipnet.se) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:22:17 -0500 Subject: Low Interest Loans From Aggressive Funding Institutions! 14660 Message-ID: <000042e54923$00005a55$00003944@pob23uifesi.cic.org.ar ([61.48.316.4]) by ris5s2.daidacent14sere1.chua.cesaimtv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAE11975 ([217.45.256.4])> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 18519 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reeza at flex.com Fri Dec 29 16:37:24 2000 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 14:37:24 -1000 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <200012292309.PAA11870@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001229141157.00b8a610@flex.com> At 03:33 PM 12/29/00 -0500, auto58194 at hushmail.com wrote: > >"James A. Donald" wrote: >> >> He describes the california system as "deregulated", but the fact that >> it takes many years to get permission to build a power plant -- that it >> takes longer to get permits than to actually build one, is undoubtedly >> a contributing factor to the crisis. >> > >Of course it is. With plenty of excuses to hand out, a deregulated >industry will act more boldly. Without interference from a save-the-"X" crowd, they'll actually be able to act. >If it's so hard to build power plants in California, what is the obsession >with building them in California? Oh, I dunno. Self-sufficiency, maybe? One for all, before all for one? Pull your weight, we'll help but goddamit pull your own goddamned weight? >Looking at the queue of plant requests within California they also seem >to be obsessed with building them in highly populated areas. Easy commute for the workers, and a large pool to draw workers from? >I suppose one has to consider the plight of the capitalist here. What, because CA lacks foresight and has it's head up its ass, it has suddenly become a capitalist plight? Since when has CA been a paragon of capitalist virtue? It seems that, despite several big (read corporate) names being based there, they have been the source of many non-capitalist things. >Given >that the ROI on a plant closer to demand is higher (less additional >infrastructure such as transmission lines and substations) than one far >away, it becomes a no-brainer which to build from a profit standpoint. Another consideration, for building closer to where the demand is. These are self-evident considerations. >Considering power plants were competing with dot-coms for investment >capital, it's no surprise that ROI on a plant needed to be made as high >as possible to have any chance of being funded. Another manifestation of myopia. Checked www.fuckedcompany.com lately? >Thinking about it that way, it shouldn't be too surprising the result >is high-ROI plants get built where people don't want them but eventually >accept them after a year or two's delay. The capital for the plant is >just invested elsewhere during the delay, so the delay doesn't harm the >capitalist. Any delay in earnings, harms. Corporate earnings do more than line the pockets of a nameless, faceless board of directors somewhere. If that is allowed for, isn't this really just another example of how piglets want to have their cake and eat it too? CA'ans want electricity, but they don't want the powerplant (in their back yard), or the higher rates of a (potentially) volatile market? Just exactly how do you spell welfare, anyhow? S-U-B-S-I-D-I-E-S???? >If anything, it helps as the delay just serves to let shortage warnings >and emergency notices go out, lets prices go up, makes people worry about >blackouts, and then the next plant can be built with an even higher ROI. > >So in a perverse sort of way, the system works just fine. >For the capitalist anyways. Capitalists have been trying to build plants for years (the need for more ability to generate electricity was recognized a decade ago) and have been dissuaded by CA rules & regs (too much red tape and environmentalist wacko interference). Go wash out your mind with soap, you've been dallying with the dark side. From auto58194 at hushmail.com Fri Dec 29 12:33:25 2000 From: auto58194 at hushmail.com (auto58194 at hushmail.com) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:33:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] Message-ID: <200012292309.PAA11870@user5.hushmail.com> "James A. Donald" wrote: > > He describes the california system as "deregulated", but the fact that it > takes many years to get permission to build a power plant -- that it takes > longer to get permits than to actually build one, is undoubtedly a > contributing factor to the crisis. > Of course it is. With plenty of excuses to hand out, a deregulated industry will act more boldly. If it's so hard to build power plants in California, what is the obsession with building them in California? Looking at the queue of plant requests within California they also seem to be obsessed with building them in highly populated areas. I suppose one has to consider the plight of the capitalist here. Given that the ROI on a plant closer to demand is higher (less additional infrastructure such as transmission lines and substations) than one far away, it becomes a no-brainer which to build from a profit standpoint. Considering power plants were competing with dot-coms for investment capital, it's no surprise that ROI on a plant needed to be made as high as possible to have any chance of being funded. Thinking about it that way, it shouldn't be too surprising the result is high-ROI plants get built where people don't want them but eventually accept them after a year or two's delay. The capital for the plant is just invested elsewhere during the delay, so the delay doesn't harm the capitalist. If anything, it helps as the delay just serves to let shortage warnings and emergency notices go out, lets prices go up, makes people worry about blackouts, and then the next plant can be built with an even higher ROI. So in a perverse sort of way, the system works just fine. For the capitalist anyways. From jya at pipeline.com Fri Dec 29 12:57:23 2000 From: jya at pipeline.com (John Young) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 15:57:23 -0500 Subject: Levy's Crypto Message-ID: <200012292100.QAA04127@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> After reading Steve Levy's "Crypto," two points he covers still intrigue: the true origin of public key encryption and the true origin of cypherpunks. Intriguing, to this reader at least, is the link between the two in fostering public use of crypto -- and whether there was covert involvement of TLAs in both efforts. Levy does not examine this possibility, but the affairs and persons he explores do offer tantalizing hope for there being more than has been made part of the public record. Levy writes a swell account of the public, bright side of crypto liberation, and why there's not more about the dark side is a mystery, for there's not a really bad character, or agency, in the whole tome. To be sure, Levy notes that the awful aspects of crypto is either classified, NDA or criminal, thus not fit for angelic e-commerce and PGPeople's liberation. From anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net Fri Dec 29 13:01:21 2000 From: anmetet at mixmaster.shinn.net (bruble-admin) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:01:21 -0500 Subject: ATTN: Bruble2 mix key mixup Message-ID: <44c17e436a50d3eb60142b2fc54cf94c@mixmaster.shinn.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp Size: 1443 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Fri Dec 29 13:48:44 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:48:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: recent paper on composition of protocols Message-ID: Hi, In case anyone wants to take a look, Ran Canetti has a 63-page paper on secure composition of protocols up at eprint.iacr.org . I haven't read through it yet, but it may be of interest. http://eprint.iacr.org/2000/067/ -David From tcmay at got.net Fri Dec 29 21:02:52 2000 From: tcmay at got.net (Tim May) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 21:02:52 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001229141157.00b8a610@flex.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001229141157.00b8a610@flex.com> Message-ID: At 2:37 PM -1000 12/29/00, Reese wrote: >At 03:33 PM 12/29/00 -0500, auto58194 at hushmail.com wrote: > >>Looking at the queue of plant requests within California they also seem >>to be obsessed with building them in highly populated areas. > >Easy commute for the workers, and a large pool to draw workers from? Most of the proposed new plants are very, very small. Nearly all in populated areas are natural gas-fired plants, with minimal-to-zero burden on the local environment. For example, a couple of such small plants have been built in the San Jose area in recent years. Environmentalists even favor building such a plant over letting Cisco expand, to name a recent newspaper issue. What these new plants ARE NOT is the kind of large nuclear plant comparable in size to the highly successful Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Station. That plant was completed more than 15 years ago. It is in an unpopulated area, between Half Moon Bay and Pismo Beach, and west of San Luis Obispo. A similar plant was once planned for Bodega Bay, northwest of San Francisco, but it was blocked by tree huggers in the early 70s. > >Another consideration, for building closer to where the demand is. >These are self-evident considerations. Especially for the "micro plants" described above. Economies of scale, etc. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay at got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Dec 30 01:28:24 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 04:28:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: your favorite protocols In-Reply-To: <20001229111633.B11447@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, Greg Broiles wrote: > I realize that the original citation was meant as an example of the > difficulty of reaching crypto standards, but this "smart contracts" > crap is really sticking in my throat this week. I agree with you that the term is stretched a bit thin. Still, there seem to be at least two major things which fall under it in the work I've seen 1) "Digital Rights Management" - which you mentioned below 2) Contract languages like E (www.erights.org) and the Haskell combinator library discussed in Simon Peyton Jones, Jean-Marc Ebert, and Julian Seward in ICFP 2000 ``Composing Contracts: an Adventure in Financial Engineering.'' http://riss.keris.or.kr:8080/pubs/articles/proceedings/fp/351240/p280-jones/p280-jones.pdf (thanks to Norman Ramsey for the reference) It's unfortunate that the Franklin and Durfee paper focused on 1) as their raison d'etre for their protocol -- for all the reasons you cited. It's not clear that 1) will fly, and even if it does, the end user won't be doing much meaningful negotiation... Even so, it seems to me that their techniques will have wider application. Suppose Alice wants to selectively reveal parts of her contact with Bob to Carol -- maybe she wants to convince Carol that Bob didn't give Alice a better price than Bob did to Carol in order to win Carol's goodwill. The techniques in the paper seem to allow Alice to do that without having to reveal exactly what her price from Bob was (or learn what Carol's price was, for that matter) -- and have it backed up by a contact signed by Bob. Then again, I don't know how often these kinds of situations come up in real life...or will come up in the future. > > It's really unfortunate that the crypto community seems determined to > take words which have relatively specific and nuanced legal definitions > and overload them with cartoonish definitions - the math tricks described > therein are interesting, but bear no relationship to contracts as > lawyers and courts understand that term. The behavior described is > closer to licensing, but is unlikely to create an actual license without > careful attention. Where would I go to learn about the difference between contracts and licenses so as to understand what you mean here? (Besides law school; that's still an option for me, but not now). Because I'd like to avoid contributing to this problem if that's possible... Thanks, -David From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Dec 30 01:58:59 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 04:58:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Remailers, science and engineering) In-Reply-To: <20001229105356.A11447@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, Greg Broiles wrote: > But - several, if not many times - the security we've achieved has been > broken, because of implementation errors on the part of creators, > installers, or users. That's right - that's part of the fact that cryptographic engineering (as opposed to "cryptographic science") is still in its infancy. This is the downside of the current approach, which focuses on getting the protocol right first, and only later considers the "real world." Bruce Schneier had another way of putting it - something along the lines of "The math is perfect, the hardware is so-so, the software is a mess, and the people are awful!" (not an exact quote, but I remember it from one of his DEF CON speeches). That being said, there is some benefit to considering the protocols in an ideal, polite model - because in the past we haven't even been able to get security in *that* model. So in some sense this is a case of "publishing what we can prove." It's only comparatively recently that we've had protocols which we can prove secure, even in weak models -- the first real definitions of security from Yao, Goldwasser and Micali, and probably others weren't until the early to mid 1980s. Truly practical cryptosystems which meet these definitions of security didn't arrive until the 1990s. (Some would argue that they still aren't here - Bellare and Rogaway's Optimal Asymmetric Encryption Padding (OAEP) satisfies a strong definition of security, but only if you buy the "random oracle assumption.") Now on the "science" side we can and should extend the model to deal with more of the real world. You might find the recent paper I posted a link to by Canetti interesting - he sets out to deal with an asynchronous network with active adversaries. I didn't see torture included yet, but maybe next version. Birgit Pfitzmann and Michael Waidner are considering something called "reactive systems" which may also yield results. http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/297161.html On the engineering side -- well, there's a long way to go. Ross Anderson has a new book coming out which may help a little bit. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html The fact remains that I don't think we have enough experience implementing protocols beyond encryption and signatures. At least not on a wide scale. Take digital cash and voting protocols as an example. Digital cash has been implemented and re-implemented several times. It's even had a "live" test or two. But how many people have managed to buy something tangible with it? and how does that compare to the amount cleared by credit cards? Electronic voting seems to be on the upswing - at least with votehere.com and the recent election debacle hanging over our heads. Still, who has implemented, tested, and deployed a truly large-scale voting system based on cryptographic protocols? The one which comes to mind is the MIT system built on the FOO protocol - and while that *works* (modulo operator error), that's only a few thousand undergrads. It's at times like this that I wish I knew more about formal verification of protocols... > > Consider the computing power assembled for the DES or RC5 cracks, > instead applied to dictionary attacks versus a PGP keyring, or SSH > keyfile. How long until the average user's passphrase is recovered? If the passphrase is in the dictionary, nearly no time at all. Some take this to mean that now we should write passphrases down, and use the opportunity to pick long random ones unlikely to be in any dictionary... -David From Radardoo at aol.com Sat Dec 30 05:03:10 2000 From: Radardoo at aol.com (Radardoo at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 08:03:10 -0500 Subject: Internet Detective @ Your Fingertips Message-ID: <5d.536d315.277f27c0@aol.com> Now you can learn EVERYTHING about your friends, neighbors, enemies, employees, co-workers, your boss, even yourself! Is there someone online that you want to find out more about? Are they exploring areas of the internet that they shouldn't be? It's time for you to see for yourself and find out what they are really doing online! Don't let suspicions become paranoia, uncover the truth now before it's too late! Many people hire a private investigator to observe, track and record what their husband, wife, boyfriend/girlfriend and children are doing. Be your own private investigator. 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From gbroiles at netbox.com Sat Dec 30 10:56:08 2000 From: gbroiles at netbox.com (Greg Broiles) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:56:08 -0800 Subject: your favorite protocols In-Reply-To: ; from dmolnar@hcs.harvard.edu on Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 04:28:24AM -0500 References: <20001229111633.B11447@ideath.parrhesia.com> Message-ID: <20001230105607.E11447@ideath.parrhesia.com> On Sat, Dec 30, 2000 at 04:28:24AM -0500, dmolnar wrote: > I agree with you that the term is stretched a bit thin. Still, there seem > to be at least two major things which fall under it in the work I've seen > > 1) "Digital Rights Management" - which you mentioned below > 2) Contract languages like E (www.erights.org) and > the Haskell combinator library discussed in > > Simon Peyton Jones, Jean-Marc Ebert, and Julian Seward in ICFP 2000 > ``Composing Contracts: an Adventure in Financial Engineering.'' > http://riss.keris.or.kr:8080/pubs/articles/proceedings/fp/351240/p280-jones/p280-jones.pdf > (thanks to Norman Ramsey for the reference) Thanks for the reference - I'll look at it over the weekend. > Even so, it seems to me that their techniques will have wider application. > Suppose Alice wants to selectively reveal parts of her contact with Bob to > Carol -- maybe she wants to convince Carol that Bob didn't give Alice a > better price than Bob did to Carol in order to win Carol's goodwill. I have a hard time imagining this being useful in real life - I'm not interested in seeing only part of a contract, because I've got no idea what the rest of the contract says. The fact that there's language on one page which appears to set particular terms doesn't mean that the language is operative - perhaps it was prefaced with conditions which aren't presently applicable, or are now but won't be in the future. Or perhaps the contract has expired, or is void, or is voidable, or has been breached, or terminated. This seems pretty much exactly comparable to showing a programmer parts of a computer program and asking them to reach a conclusion about the behavior or correctness of the entire program, including the omitted or obscured parts. I can't imagine any sensible person who would act on a contract shown to them by someone else if the someone else refused to show them the entire document - but that's what's proposed in the scheme described in the Durfee and Franklin paper. They do discuss being able to prove (instead of guarantee) that certain terms of the license (which they insist on calling a contract) are within the boundaries of a pre-existing master "contract", which is a good beginning, but they're avoiding a lot of the hard work by assuming that every important term can be represented as a single value, and ignoring the interrelationships between terms or values. For example, "This license is terminable on 30 days' notice at licensor's option if the royalties paid in any calendar year are less than $10,000.00 USD." isn't an uncommon term in a license agreement - how is a sublicensor to prove to a prospective sublicensee that the license hasn't been terminated? They'd need to prove a negative - nonreciept of the notice of termination - which is notoriously difficult. (The middleman could produce proof tending to show that they had not breached, leading to the inference that notice, if given, would have been inappropriate - but that's not the same result.) > The techniques in the paper seem to allow Alice to do that without having > to reveal exactly what her price from Bob was (or learn what Carol's price > was, for that matter) -- and have it backed up by a contact signed by Bob. > > Then again, I don't know how often these kinds of situations come up in > real life...or will come up in the future. My hunch is that it won't - I do still think it's a neat trick, but it sounds a lot like a solution searching for an applicable problem, instead of the other way around. > Where would I go to learn about the difference between contracts and > licenses so as to understand what you mean here? (Besides law school; > that's still an option for me, but not now). Because I'd like to avoid > contributing to this problem if that's possible... If you are in the mood to read, "Understanding Copyright Law" by Marshall Leaffer is about $30 and hopefully accessible; my favorite reference for contract law is Farnsworth's "Contracts" hornbook, though I fear it may not be as friendly to people who don't have a compelling reason to make their way through it. I am having a hard time thinking of a good way to learn what the books don't explain, which is how to figure out which body of law is applicable to a given problem. I am only getting better at that some 5 years out of law school, and it's not even something where experts agree. Questions about how to organize transactions to minimize the incidence and consequences of failure are very old questions, and legal and insurance people have evolved some pretty detailed approaches to solving common (and uncommon) problems - it's something of a waste of time for people to start working on those problems without learning about what's been tried in the past. That certainly doesn't mean that what's done now is perfect, or efficient - but in many cases it's been shaped by tens or hundreds (or maybe thousands) of years of experience and testing, which does have some value. Mostly I think it's unfortunate that relatively common words like "signature" or "contract" get reused - initially it's not a big problem, because the people close to the theoretical work understand the gulf between their models and the real world - but 5 or 10 years out, we end up with questions like "are digital signatures really signatures" or "is a smart contract a contract" or "do you mean you signed it with a pen, or with your browser?". I guess this is the same process that called cars "horseless carriages" for awhile - people who think of new technologies name them after older things which serve many of the same goals, leading to confusion. That doesn't seem so terrible, but I do think that the "smart contracts" trend ignores the real role of contracts, which is their social role - which is that they're agreements which society will force people to fulfill, not agreements enforced by technology. Both the DRM and the E-rights technologies assume that there can be no meaningful external review of the agrements or the actions of the parties to an agreement, and proceed to limit people's behavior accordingly. That may be a reasonable assumption to make - but it is not law, at least in the way that people talk about "the rule of law". It does limit human behavior - which is the purpose of law - but it does it in a different way (the same way that fences or handcuffs do). Larry Lessig's book "Code" talks a lot about how technology can create its own limits for human action, though I think it's unfortunate that he calls it "law". In any event, it's confusing to a lot of people to mix those two approaches to governing human conduct (or human conduct as expressed through machines) - one consists of verbal expressions which are interpreted by human beings (where that interpretive process may be recursive), another consists of physical things which need or permit no interpretation (though they may contain Turing machines). My own interests and biases lean towards the former model (though I am not such a purist that I refuse to employ locks or guns if necessary), but the second model is also certainly legitimate. My real beef is with people who accidentally or deliberately confuse the two models, because that leads to unproductive thinking and behavior. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles at netbox.com PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604 From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 30 11:22:02 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 11:22:02 -0800 Subject: Internet money reaches critical mass Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001230111708.023b8dd8@shell11.ba.best.com> -- I saw a computer advertised in a magazine. I attempted to buy it. Seller wanted payment by paypal or moneyzap Paypal had bugs, which caused my account to become frozen. I phoned back. Me: "You are not far from me -- how about I pay you the old fashioned way" Seller: "We are not set up for that." Trouble is of course, that paypal and the rest are based on true names registered with our beloved government which art in Washington. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG PZWkfSU5nqWkj213i+w5eMQmfIx/x4XVyTsFb5q0 4ZNmMcS6+ml2grpnvZCzxRVqwJI0SGUHQ7NTrnKNO From jamesd at echeque.com Sat Dec 30 11:49:25 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 11:49:25 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: <200012292309.PAA11870@user5.hushmail.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20001230112516.023aceb0@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 03:33 PM 12/29/2000 -0500, auto58194 at hushmail.com wrote: > If it's so hard to build power plants in California, what is the obsession with building them in California? Ask the regulators in other states. Most of the neighboring states have regulated monopolies, rather than a regulated market, which are effectively an arm of the government, in that the decision to build a plant is primarily made by the government. A Californian power company simply has no legal right to build a power plant in Oregon, because that would violate the monopoly authorized by the state of Oregon. > Looking at the queue of plant requests within California they also seem to be obsessed with building them in highly populated areas. The endangered species act makes it impractical to build power plants in less developed areas. The process of getting approval would take over a generation. They would first have to get someplace out in the coutryside rezoned for industry, which would probably require an initiative, which cannot be passed until the next election.. Much faster to start off with a proposal to build a plant in an area already zoned for industry. The underlying cause of the power crisis is that the burdensome regulatory process means that power needs must be foreseen over a decade in advance, and California had an unexpected surge of growth. Because of this growth surge we would have had a crisis anyway, but the "deregulation" made the crisis worse than it would otherwise have been, and one of the ways it made the crisis worse than it would otherwise have been is that the lead time required to get regulatory approval to build a power plant appears to have increased rather than decreased. In fact of course, what we are seeing in California is not deregulation, but desocialization. Regulation has actually increased substantially. The former regulated monopoly, when it was acting as an arm of the state, had a fairly free hand to do whatever the state decided. The many genuinely private firms do not have a free hand to do what they decide. > I suppose one has to consider the plight of the capitalist here. > Given that the ROI on a plant closer to demand is higher (less > additional infrastructure such as transmission lines and > substations) than one far away, it becomes a no-brainer which to > build from a profit standpoint. Considering power plants were > competing with dot-coms for investment capital, it's no surprise > that ROI on a plant needed to be made as high as possible to have > any chance of being funded. > > Thinking about it that way, it shouldn't be too surprising the > result is high-ROI plants get built where people don't want them but > eventually accept them after a year or two's delay. Of course if the evil capitalist had decided to build the plant further away, the eco freaks would be frothing with outrage about the plant destroying nature and the power lines destroying the migratory routes of animals. It takes many more years, perhaps generations, to get past the endangered species act, no matter how frivolous and absurd the objections, than it takes to build in areas already approved for industry. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Hf6V42fFUl/mEuMDmC5imbVM0viim35lKKc0HwXg 4BTUMxiz4F3aoxvFnTF2rlCC5TetfzlzHioAhUUs4 From carolsearcy at juno.com Sat Dec 30 11:58:35 2000 From: carolsearcy at juno.com (carolsearcy at juno.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 13:58:35 -0600 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20001230.140210.-418649.0.carolsearcy@juno.com> yes i would like ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Dec 30 18:13:10 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 18:13:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext Message-ID: <200012310213.eBV2DAa15964@artifact.psychedelic.net> Almost since the inception of the Internet, Usenet and IRC have been uncensorable distributed resources defined only by adherence to published protocols. With no centralized administration, and resilience against the loss of individual servers, they carry enough traffic to provide complete and total plausible deniability for any server operator over content which gores some specific group's ox. Indeed, alt.anonymous.messages, a Usenet newsgroup, is often used as the basis for Cypherpunkish schemes, in which people need to talk to each other without any third party being able to discern either content or traffic patterns in the discussion. Unknown to much of the Internet, there is a plan brewing to "upgrade" Efnet, the primary IRC network, to something called "Efnext." Server software is being rewritten and tested. Efnet server admins have been contacted and promises to move to the new network during a "transition period" exacted. People who won't play ball have been identified, and plans to delink them and not connect them to the new regime fabricated. Efnext is a very different kind of IRC than we are used to. It is centrally administrated, with the Efnext Cabal passing judgment on who may link to the new system, as well as having the ultimate say over the policies and selection of administrative personnel on individual servers. The identity of individual IRC servers has been blurred whenever possible, and IRC Operators have been given many new powers, which span individual servers, and apply globally to the entire Network. The old Efnet policy that IRCops didn't get involved in "channel issues" has been replaced by one where operators are encouraged to do so on Efnext. Operators on Efnext will be able to globally reserve nicks, channels, and even entire servers, making them inaccessible to people using IRC. They will be able to enter channels, adjust modes, op themselves, and mass deop others. They will even be able to remote k-line on any server. There will be global logs of how these new powers are used, and operators will work with one another to present to the users an unvarying monolithic implementation of the policies and doctrines created by the centralized Efnext administration. In short, and in secret, and without many comments by the people affected, IRC as we know it is about to get the equivalent of AOL Chatroom Monitors, with the identities of individual IRC servers becoming invisible to the users as IRC is transformed from a server cluster into a monolithic network object under a single authority. One could very easily envision a similar thing happening to Usenet, with everyone awakening one morning to "Usenext," whose centralized authority can turn newsgroups off and on with ease, and control who is permitted to post, and what they are allowed to say, both before and after the fact, and globally across all NNTP servers. Freeh and Reno will love Efnext. Saddam Hussein will love Efnext. Channels like #%%%100%MoslemWomenWithoutVeilsPix and #Feinswine&HatchCanMunchMySphincter will be able to be disabled with little more than a friendly phone call by the cops to the people publicly advertising themselves as being in charge of the vast majority of IRC. "Suspected pedophiles, money launderers, drug traffickers, and terrorists" can just have their nicks turned off, or be k-lined on all servers. All for the greater good of the greater number, of course. With centralized administration will come centralized responsibilty, centralized liability, and of course, like the rest of the camel into the tent, centralized policy. Perhaps centralized policy like... "No channel names with naughty words in them" "No discussions which exploit Gyno-Americans, Under-18-Americans, or Differently-Tinted-Americans" "No talk of how to make drugs or explosives" And of course, where ever there is centralized authority, people will be encouraged to rat out anyone they suspect of such things to the classroom monitor, and the path of least resistance will be to disable the resource involved until the accused proves otherwise. Perhaps Efnext will even include the ability to log problematical channels at the request of law enforcement. I wouldn't be at all surprised. You can learn more about Efnext at http://www.efnext.net/ "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own." We are Efnext. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From ravage at einstein.ssz.com Sat Dec 30 19:02:07 2000 From: ravage at einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 21:02:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <200012310213.eBV2DAa15964@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > Almost since the inception of the Internet, Usenet and IRC have been > uncensorable distributed resources defined only by adherence to published > protocols. > > With no centralized administration, and resilience against the loss of > individual servers, they carry enough traffic to provide complete and > total plausible deniability for any server operator over content which > gores some specific group's ox. > Unknown to much of the Internet, there is a plan brewing to "upgrade" > Efnet, the primary IRC network, to something called "Efnext." Server > software is being rewritten and tested. Efnet server admins have been > contacted and promises to move to the new network during a "transition > period" exacted. People who won't play ball have been identified, and > plans to delink them and not connect them to the new regime fabricated. > You can learn more about Efnext at http://www.efnext.net/ > > "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. We will add your > biological and technological distinctiveness to our own." > > We are Efnext. The sky is falling, the sky is falling, .... So much for belief in free markets. You realise that there is nothing that requires servers to install this, or cease using the old network? It seems to me the 'cypherpunkish', 'libertarian', 'anarchic' thing to do is to promote the growth of individualy operated servers other than those on ISP's (who will have a motive to drop the old system and use the new system - just another example of why libertarian/economism is not sufficient in and of itself for a basis for society - they have no motive to protect the individual, only the 'market'). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From shocktreatment at themail.com Sat Dec 30 22:09:48 2000 From: shocktreatment at themail.com (Lance B. Turner) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:09:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: STOP FOOLING YOURSELF !!! Message-ID: <419.436891.04508403shocktreatment@themail.com> ***** IF YOU WANT TRAFFIC TO YOUR SITE, YOU MUST READ THIS***** I will be honest with you. I use a bulk e-mail program, which I got for free, to send about 100,000 e-mails per day to targeted lists that I also get for free "that's how I got your name." I became an affiliate of the largest free resource network in the world... for free as well. I go to work while my computer runs for about an hour. Do you know how much MONEY there is doing what I am doing??!! 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Your subscription expires on 07-12-00. To unsubscribe and be permanently removed from our mailing system, kindly reply to this e-mail with the words "REMOVE ME" in the subject line. Your address will be removed upon receipt. From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sat Dec 30 22:17:16 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:17:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: from "Jim Choate" at Dec 30, 2000 09:02:07 PM Message-ID: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net> Jim Choate writes: > So much for belief in free markets. You realise that there is nothing > that requires servers to install this, or cease using the old network? A typical citizen-unit will quickly trade a large amount of privacy for a small amount of convenience. Sheeple-shearing is never so successful as when it's "voluntary." Note that the two things IRC really needs, end to end encryption and authentication, are not even on the list of "improvements" these people are working on. A little over a month ago, Adam J Herscher wrote a lovely little rant on Efnext, and rather than reiterate points which he made more articulately than I could ever hope to, let me simply paste chunks from his message to EFNet opers and admins. "The way that this is being implemented is simply unfair. They're supporting themselves with the argument that since every EFNet admin will be approached, it is fair - yet they easily admit that there will be a network split and that there is no other way to do it. Well, at this point, let's take a look from the admin being approached perspective. I am an EFNet admin, and approached by a group of people that tell me they have a great solution to fix the network. They tell me that I'm welcome, and my opinions will be heard (though I have no -official- voice/vote - yet), as long as I change my server to meet requirements not officially approved by anyone. That is, I will need to run new code, open my I:lines, possibly add more opers, possibly resign as admin and allow a new one to take over (again no server names mentioned, but I have specific ones in mind - and no, not my own - a list of servers that were discussed as not being allowed to link without conforming was actually posted). So what are my options at this point? Well, I can link to their network, or I can decide not to. If I decide not to, I will remain with a group of unwanted leaf servers with no hubs. And yes, I mean unwanted by them - if you haven't been approached by them yet others were months ago, why do you think this was? Perhaps because you wouldn't go along 100% or keep quiet? Essentially this process is "conform or be delinked" - because it's obvious at this point that if the major EFNet hubs and client servers go, you will be left delinked - their idea of a network split." > It seems to me the 'cypherpunkish', 'libertarian', 'anarchic' thing to > do is to promote the growth of individualy operated servers other than > those on ISP's (who will have a motive to drop the old system and use > the new system - just another example of why libertarian/economism is > not sufficient in and of itself for a basis for society - they have no > motive to protect the individual, only the 'market'). It would indeed be unfortunate if all controversial IRC traffic ended up being carried by isolated IRC servers, akin to remailers, whose admins were under constant attack, and which came and went on a daily basis. I anticipate that if Efnext pulls off this "Conform or be Delinked" exercise, people will be setting their sights on Usenet as the next thing that needs "fixing." -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From Raymond at fbn.bc.ca Sat Dec 30 23:36:16 2000 From: Raymond at fbn.bc.ca (Raymond D. Mereniuk) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 23:36:16 -0800 Subject: The Cost of Natural Gas [was Re: The Cost of California Liberalism] In-Reply-To: References: <3A4926C1.9508.25D45BB4@localhost> Message-ID: <3A4E7176.27665.1C0CB32@localhost> Tim May > I said "at certain times of the year." > > British Columbia is tied by treaty arrangements (Columbia River > Treaty, 1961) to the Bonneville Power Administration (BPA), and is, > VERY SIGNIFICANTLY, now part of same grid that is the ISO, the > Independent System Operator, mostly based in California. > > Read the following and weep for your beloved Canadian independence: > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001208/ts/california_power_dc_3.html The independence is not an issue to most Western Canadians. We are a subservient bunch to Eastern Canada as it is now. Central Canada is where the money and power is seated and the way Canada is setup it will always be that way. Being independent or joining the USA is a subject which is often mentioned in Western Canada. Another purpose served by your Electoral College is that it gives each senator in a state a vote. This helps even out the power between major population centers and those states with low populations. Couple this with your senate and you have a system which balances geographical related issues against that of major population centers. Most Western Canadians would prefer such a system. Back to the main subject, what are your numbers for exports of power from the American Northwest to the Canadian Southwest? I am told by the powers that be that the number is negative. Again you would have to travel this area to understand how the environment has been altered in the name of energy production. Virtually Raymond D. Mereniuk Raymond at fbn.bc.ca "Need Someone To Tell You What To Do?" FBN - The Consultants http://www.fbn.bc.ca/consultg.html From abs at squig.org Sun Dec 31 00:06:02 2000 From: abs at squig.org (Alex B. Shepardsen) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 00:06:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, dmolnar wrote: > Something I don't see much of on the efxnet page - "why?" > > This is in the FAQ: > "EFNext is the name of a project geared towards making IRC a more stable, > uniform, chat environment." > > and they say "introductory document coming soon." I still don't know why > this is happening (I don't hang out on EFnet). What do the efxnet people > give as their reasons for a new IRC network? Well, as an EFnet user, I can say that EFnet is pretty unreliable. Network splits are extremely common (major splits occuring once every 3 or 4 hours, and usually lasting about 10 minutes or so). Lag between major irc servers is often quite apparent. All-in-all, EFnet needs a lot of work. Some of the other networks like Chatnet behave better, but they are also smaller and have less users. Is there a need for a new IRC network? Unclear. I think that the probolems EFnet has are not going to be fixed by relacing it. The IRC servers simply need to be more reliable. Alex From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Dec 30 23:52:15 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 02:52:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <200012310213.eBV2DAa15964@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > Unknown to much of the Internet, there is a plan brewing to "upgrade" > Efnet, the primary IRC network, to something called "Efnext." Server > software is being rewritten and tested. Efnet server admins have been > contacted and promises to move to the new network during a "transition > period" exacted. People who won't play ball have been identified, and > plans to delink them and not connect them to the new regime fabricated. Something I don't see much of on the efxnet page - "why?" This is in the FAQ: "EFNext is the name of a project geared towards making IRC a more stable, uniform, chat environment." and they say "introductory document coming soon." I still don't know why this is happening (I don't hang out on EFnet). What do the efxnet people give as their reasons for a new IRC network? -David From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sat Dec 30 23:58:07 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 02:58:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > A typical citizen-unit will quickly trade a large amount of privacy for a > small amount of convenience. > > Sheeple-shearing is never so successful as when it's "voluntary." Then it seems imperative to find ways to acheive both convenience and privacy... -David From klp at tc.umn.edu Sun Dec 31 01:28:07 2000 From: klp at tc.umn.edu (Kevin L Prigge) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 03:28:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: from "Alex B. Shepardsen" at "Dec 31, 2000 00:06:02 am" Message-ID: One of the problems that efnext is trying to address, and a cause of network instability is DOS attacks against servers by little kiddies that want to take over channels. Not that I'm for or against the new network, but it seems that building a consensus and peer review of the protocols would be a good thing. As for the fear that this will lead to central control and monitoring of the IRC network, my guess is that IRC is already heavily monitored. It's a hell of a lot more trivial than Usenet with only 33 servers on the network, and each communication tagged with the hostname or IP address that originated it. Alex B. Shepardsen said: > On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, dmolnar wrote: > > > Something I don't see much of on the efxnet page - "why?" > > > > This is in the FAQ: > > "EFNext is the name of a project geared towards making IRC a more stable, > > uniform, chat environment." > > > > and they say "introductory document coming soon." I still don't know why > > this is happening (I don't hang out on EFnet). What do the efxnet people > > give as their reasons for a new IRC network? > > Well, as an EFnet user, I can say that EFnet is pretty unreliable. Network > splits are extremely common (major splits occuring once every 3 or 4 > hours, and usually lasting about 10 minutes or so). Lag between major irc > servers is often quite apparent. All-in-all, EFnet needs a lot of > work. Some of the other networks like Chatnet behave better, but they are > also smaller and have less users. > > Is there a need for a new IRC network? Unclear. I think that the probolems > EFnet has are not going to be fixed by relacing it. The IRC servers simply > need to be more reliable. > > Alex > -- Kevin L. Prigge Internet Services U of MN, Twin Cities From dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu Sun Dec 31 01:22:30 2000 From: dmolnar at hcs.harvard.edu (dmolnar) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 04:22:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: That 70's Crypto Show (Re: Dude! It's wired!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Dec 2000, Tim May wrote: > Has there really been much progress in the last ten years? I remember > the flurry of ground-breaking work in the mid-80s, and it was much in > the air at the first "Crypto Conference" I attended in 1988 (also the > last such conference I attended, for various reasons). Some things come to mind: 1) Efficient realizations of provably secure cryptosystems. - Optimal Asymmetric Encryption Padding (OAEP) 1994 Bellare and Rogaway show a way to do secure RSA encryption without falling victim to any of the nasty padding attacks found by Coppersmith, Hastad, and others. - Probabilistic Signature Scheme (PSS) 1996 How to properly pad your signatures. Again Bellare and Rogaway. Both OAEP and PSS rely on the so-called "random oracle assumption" which needs its own message to explain. Suffice to say that if you buy that assumption, you end up with schemes which are 99% as efficient as the "naive" way of doing things. Of course, there *were* padding methods arround before OAEP and PSS. Recent events have shown that some of them weren't a good idea - in particular the padding in the old PKCS #1 1.5 standard has come in for a beating. More recently, people have come up with methods which don't need the "random oracle assumption" (Cramer and Shoup most notedly), but they're still not as efficient as OAEP and PSS. This is a big deal because it opens the way for "practice-oriented provable security" -- all that beautiful theory people were excited about in 1988 makes its way into real products. 2) Commercialization and availability of SSL/TLS Ten years ago, we didn't have a good engineering-level spec for a protocol to encrypt streams. Now, three or four iterations of SSL later, we do. Plus the www.openssl.org effort makes this easy to use - some random undergrad can knock together an SSL-enabled application in a short time. Now that we're *finally* going to get some good documentation in the form of Eric Rescorla's book, maybe more people will take advantage of OpenSSL... In addition, the failures of SSL 1.0 and 2.0 (should have) taught us about what Not To Do when designing protocols. Like "protect your protocol negotiation"... 3) Differential Cryptanlysis, Linear Cryptanalysis, Block Cipher Design Not particularly cypherpunkish or protocol-ish, but needs mentioning. Academic cryptographers rediscover NSA techniques and start us on the path to an AES competition. Look also at the analysis of Skipjack and how it was determined that 16 rounds were "just enough" -- we could not have done that in 1988 or 1990, I think. Although I should really leave that determination to someone with more experience in that area than I have. 4) Practical and Theoretical advances in Digital Cash Today, I can go pick up the -lucre library - either version, or Magic Money and produce a "Pretty Good Digital Cash" enabled application. There's still no reason on earth why I should do so, alas, but I can. Also now the Mojo Nation stuff may take off. To this you may add the various smart card and digital cash experiments and projects which went on. Stefan Brands' techniques take the old "credential without identity" idea and make it practical and flexible. Plus his thesis and advocacy for an alternative to a hierarchical PKI will be useful in heading off the advent of "digital driver's licenses." None of these are as fundamental as creating the first real definition of security for a cryptosystem or as ground-breaking. But they follow up on those first efforts and make it easier to do what we want with cryptography. > > Something I expected to have happened long ago was the > encapsulization of these protocols into building blocks into > libraries/classes/reusable objects that could be bolted together by > those building systems. ("Let's take EncryptStream and throw in > EscrowService and then add ObliviousTransfer..."). There have been two major problems, as far as I see, which have held this up. First, the theory has not always been cooperative. Second, despite the myriad of amazing special protocols which have appeared over the years, we have only a few core protocols which people seem to want badly enough to justify moving from the CRYPTO paper to the engineering stage. You can point the finger at patents, too, if you like - but they may have helped as well as hurt (I'll explain why in a bit). When I say "the theory has not always been cooperative," I mean such things as the fact that zero-knowledge proofs are not zero-knowledge under parallel composition or in a concurrent setting. That is, you "can't" take a ZKP out of a textbook and stick it in a situation where thousands of clients are interacting with a server all at once. At best you lose a security guarantee, at worst you get killed. Composing two different kinds of protocols can have similar problems; one example of this would be an "anonymous" digital cash scheme which uses zero-knowledge proofs to prove coins are "well-formed"...and the withdrawer's identity is included in the ZKP. (Pfitzmann and Waidner, "How to Break Another 'Provably Secure' Payment Scheme" ..and for fairness I should mention that there is a rebuttal) Then there's the fact that while we have a general result which tells us that "any function can be computed in secure multiparty computation," the constructions used to establish this result are impractical - it takes more work to find a particular protocol to do what you actually *want*, and there's no guarantee that it will be acceptably efficient. This is changing; people are finding more efficient ways to do "CryptoComputing" (Donald Beaver for one) and we have some cute new toys like ring-homomorphic commitments (Cramer and Damgard 1998, used in the "Distribution Chain Security" paper I cited previously), but we don't seem to be at the point yet where it's straightforward. *Each* new efficient protocol still yields a new paper. (that may be overstating things a bit; I have no idea how many protocol papers are rejected from conferences) Ideally we'd have a situation akin to where complexity theory is with NP-completeness. You can't get new NP-completeness results published any more because the techniques have become standard things taught in introductory undergrad courses. If and when we get to that point, it'll be easier to just build the protocol yourself instead of trying to look it up somewhere. I mentioned the problem of "only a few protocols that people actually want" in a separate e-mail. Face it, as cool as the Dining Cryptographers in the Disco is, who's going to implement it? and who besides cypherpunks would want to use it? This is why the commercial research labs are important - they seem to actually implement and occasionally release their protocols. Bell Labs released PAK and PAK-X clients; I know that some of their other work has at least been prototyped. This wouldn't have happened without the incentive of patents to fund that research and development. Unfortunately, the flip side is that none of us are ever going to get to use that material, or at least not without selling our souls in a licensing deal. :-( > > This is partly what I mean by "devolving back to basic ciphers." It > seems that when all is said is done, the only real "core module" we > have is basic encryption. And even that is not treated as a module > (yeah, I know that RSA is only recently unencumbered by patents). > > Some stuff with signatures, too, but basically very similar. > > In short, the world doesn't look very different than it did in 1990. > The Web is different, but not in how users send messages and files > back and forth. I agree -- but remember that the Web, and the "e-commerce" craze that came with it, has only been in widespread play since 1995 or 1996. That means we've only had 5 or 6 years in which nearly any idea with "crypto" associated with it could get funded. > A digression: One of the conventional models for a cryptographic > attack is that an attacker gets to take a problem back to his lab and > torture it to death, i.e., throw as much computer power against a > cipher as he wishes. This is a reasonable model for ciphers. There's also another point - it's supposed to be an "easier" model to deal with than the one you outline below. The famous question of Goldwasser and Micali is "Should a cryptosystem which leaks the last bit of the plaintext be considered 'secure'?" Their answer is twofold. First, "no." Second, *it doesn't matter*, since we can 1) state a better definition of security which captures the notion that "no information" leaks from the ciphertext 2) give a cryptosystem which seems to meet this definition 3) actually give a *proof* (assuming a polynomial time limited adversary and the hardness of some problem) that it does meet this definition. The thing to notice, however, is that if you can show that the last bit of the plaintext is _all_ the cryptosytem leaks, AND you can prove that your application doesn't need the last bit of the plaintext, then you don't need to go through these steps. The system is secure - for you. But figuring out what exactly you need is tough. The idea is that by considering a maximally powerful adversary, you can avoid having to analyse every protocol to see if it needs the last bit to be secure or not. The point Greg Broiles raises later is that as powerful as this adversary is, it is not "powerful enough" - for instance, it doesn't torture people. Part of that seems to be a split between the cryptographic "science" of protocol design and the "engineering" of protocol implementation. Without passing judgement on whether this split is a Good Thing or not, I'll just note that the engineering is in its infancy compared to even ordinary software engineering. > > However, mix-nets and such need to have some economic considerations. > It costs money and effort to subvert certain nodes and alter message > padding, times of sending, etc. An attack on a mix-net is not the > same as taking the whole net back into NSA basements and proceeding > to diddle it to death. > > Chaum, Pfitzman, et. al. of course refer to n-out-of-m sorts of > collaborations, but left unsaid is the cost of such collaborations. A > start, but missing a lot. Yes - even today, most people seem to consider models with a threshold of failure. If the adversary has less than n/2 of the nodes, you're safe. If it has more, you're toast. I can't think of a model which allows gradual failure or probabilistic failure off the top of my head. > > (Nodes in different countries, nodes operated more-or-less on > automatic pilot, nodes which mail to _themselves_, nodes which are > "middleman only," etc.) > Note that each of these speaks to different problems facing a remailer network. The different countries is for jurisdictional arbitrage and so against a geographically local adversary. The automatic pilot works against an adversary which is observing users and trying to see which are operators. Self-mailing nodes are tied up with traffic analysis. The middleman only nodes seem to be tied up with the abuse problem...and so on. All of which are separate attacks to be pulled out and inspected, and then those techniques can be evaluated... > Crypto does encompass the idea of a "work factor," of course. Usually > expressed as MIPS-years or somesuch. This needs to be extended in > some rough way to include the costs of soliciting cooperation or > collusion, etc. Without such inputs, how could a heterogeneous mix of > remailers be analyzed? By assuming the worst about all of them - you turn it into a homogenous mix by assuming the worst. Pow - no more heterogenous problem, but with the drawbacks we all know... Pulling back from that is difficult. First, it may be hard to model, especially for those of us without economics background. Second, it runs counter to the way "things are done"(but you knew that). An aside -- from what I've seen, mostly the symmetric cipher people deal with "work factor" in MIPS-years. When you move to the public-key and protocol side of things, it's back to the "polynomial-time adversary." This didn't change until Bellare and Rogaway started asking about "exact security" in which they wanted to know what the exact probability of an adversary to recover information would be if it could invert RSA or some such in a given amount of time. > >This may have to wait until liability issues in general for software are > >straightened out, won't it? > > It could happen absent any action on the legal front. Pure > anarcho-capitalism, a la the Law Merchant (law of the seas, with no > nation having legal jurisdiction). Lloyds of London was underwriting > shipping before there was much concern about international legal > dispute resolution. Computer security and information theft is not > the same thing as ships going down, so the evolution will be > different. Oh, OK. I was thinking about it in terms of the software vendor being insured against lawsuit in case its software failed. You seem to be referring to insurance issued to a business against its transaction failing. I hadn't considered that - it is indeed plausible. > Indeed, I cited economics in a major way. Hal Varian at Berkeley is > also interested in such issues, and a former Cypherpunks list member, > Robin Hanson, got his Ph.D. at Caltech on these kinds of issues. > (Robin is the main "idea futures" guy.) Indeed, now that I look at the page with the "list of research groups in crypto & economics", Varian is on it. There's also L. Jean Camp here at the Kennedy School - although he's more interested in the intersection of politics and cryptography, I think. > > One key issue is that not a lot of econ folks are good at crypto-type > protocols, and vice versa. Different departments, different standards > for advancement and academic fame. I don't know about anyone else, but it takes me a while to learn, and an undergraduate education is only so long. I do have a number of friends in economics (sometimes it seems like all my friends from high school are in econ...) but we don't talk about this. It's hard for me to know how to frame these questions to them. Plus I still have the naive hope that the right protocols will end up provable in the end... -David From nobody at nowhere.invalid Sun Dec 31 02:53:30 2000 From: nobody at nowhere.invalid (nobody at nowhere.invalid) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 04:53:30 -0600 Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext References: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <4r3u4tkmpc272lrs6i4lq3dedbnbhvn1s9@4ax.com> On 31 Dec 2000 03:31:50 -0600, Eric Cordian wrote: >I anticipate that if Efnext pulls off this "Conform or be >Delinked" exercise, people will be setting their sights on Usenet as the >next thing that needs "fixing." Already being done. Do a search on "Usenet II" (or 'Usenet 2'). From shocktreatment at themail.com Sun Dec 31 05:56:30 2000 From: shocktreatment at themail.com (William Jefferson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 05:56:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thank You !!! 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Your subscription expires on 07-12-00. To unsubscribe and be permanently removed from our mailing system, kindly reply to this e-mail with the words "REMOVE ME" in the subject line. Your address will be removed upon receipt. From tigger5543 at networkshosts.com Sun Dec 31 03:57:32 2000 From: tigger5543 at networkshosts.com (tigger5543 at networkshosts.com) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 06:57:32 -0500 Subject: New Internet Casino page. $10 free on signup!!!! Message-ID: <20v3tteo3s4ro6lk5l08.5ywr1u57@mx18.networkshosts.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 1526 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Dec 31 09:13:01 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:13:01 -0800 Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20001231090909.0239ca58@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 10:17 PM 12/30/2000 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: > Note that the two things IRC really needs, end to end encryption and > authentication, are not even on the list of "improvements" these > people are working on. Is there a forum where it is appropriate to discuss such improvements? The average IRC user will never grok the concept of a public key, but we could have public key's on an IRC server, with the ordinary user using a SPEKE like password system to gain access to a secured channel and a secured identity. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG HpLONWYXEqbaFaw3bKJmjhbFeLzMkIrkLaH9CPYW 4z1W/NcDGlPFqVhKdMx79FgbH147U7C6akoj2OQGh From ravage at ssz.com Sun Dec 31 07:59:43 2000 From: ravage at ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:59:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > A typical citizen-unit will quickly trade a large amount of privacy for a > small amount of convenience. That begs the question and misrepresents reality to a good degree. People take the choices they think they have, usually those choices are made available by the party that is operating the service the consumer will use. So, there is usually very little say for the consumer other than yes/no. This is not the fault of the consumer, it's the fault of the producer. In their drive to gain a significant share of the market (something which goes against free market economy by the way) they will reduce the number of combinations they must offer (reduces cost). Blaming the consumer is simply a quick way to justify whatever strategy the producer finds attractive. > Sheeple-shearing is never so successful as when it's "voluntary." History says otherwise... > Note that the two things IRC really needs, end to end encryption and > authentication, are not even on the list of "improvements" these people > are working on. Why does IRC need encryption? Why authentication? I can see no reason to authenticate IRC sessions. This is contrary to the spirit of free speech and open access. Encryption won't prevent snooping since joining the servers themselves is trivial for the potential user and provides yet another sole source for traffic analysis. Being easy to join is what IRC is about after all, it's hard to build a community otherwise. What IRC needs is anonymity, distribution, and a mechanism to limit the sorts of activities (ie anti-Dos) that cause the problems. This should be resolved in a "Open Source" sort of mechanism and not through some proprietary (irrespective of how voluntary, after all what sort of choice is there if there are no alternatives?) society. Personaly, p-2-p technology is the way to go with IRC. Not more centralized servers. That way if some script kiddy gets randy the one or two clients they connect to directly can eliminate the problems. After all, you have a right to do what you want until it interferes with somebody else. > A little over a month ago, Adam J Herscher wrote a lovely little rant on > Efnext, and rather than reiterate points which he made more articulately > than I could ever hope to, let me simply paste chunks from his message to > EFNet opers and admins. It's 'lovely' because you're already biased to that view. > "The way that this is being implemented is simply unfair. Do current operators have the choice to not join, to take their IRC toys and go elsewhere? Then it isn't unfair, it's inconvenient perhaps and it's definitely autocratic. Neither of those make it unfair a priori. For it to be unfair the action would have to prevent you from choosing alternative selections. What amazes me is that instead of whinning about it they don't go out and create more IRC channels. It's parallel to the question of why on a list of hundreds of 'crypto-anarchic individualist' we only see a handful of mailing lists (though they are trivial to build and inexpensive to operate). It's also similar to Eric's comments above about 'sheeple', why is it that anarchist/libertarians are always saying on one hand that the way to run a society is to let individuals make choices, yet they're the first to complain about how 'stupid' people are when they don't take the choices the anarchist/libertarian wants. > They're supporting themselves with the argument that since every EFNet > admin will be approached, it is fair - yet they easily admit that there > will be a network split and that there is no other way to do it. This is GOOD, diversity through philosophical disagreement means the system is working. Here's a monopolistic market and forces are driving a split and even the anarchist are against it apparently. > Well, at this point, let's take a look from the admin being approached > perspective. I am an EFNet admin, and approached by a group of people that > tell me they have a great solution to fix the network. They tell me that I'm > welcome, and my opinions will be heard (though I have no -official- > voice/vote - yet), as long as I change my server to meet requirements not > officially approved by anyone. That is, I will need to run new code, open > my I:lines, possibly add more opers, possibly resign as admin and allow a > new one to take over (again no server names mentioned, but I have specific > ones in mind - and no, not my own - a list of servers that were discussed > as not being allowed to link without conforming was actually posted). So > what are my options at this point? Well, I can link to their network, or I > can decide not to. If I decide not to, I will remain with a group of > unwanted leaf servers with no hubs. And yes, I mean unwanted by them - if > you haven't been approached by them yet others were months ago, why do you > think this was? Perhaps because you wouldn't go along 100% or keep quiet? > Essentially this process is "conform or be delinked" - because it's > obvious at this point that if the major EFNet hubs and client servers go, > you will be left delinked - their idea of a network split." Whine, whine, whine. This is one of the most self-important, self-serving commentaries I've seen in a long time. This guy is a bozo. His argument is something like this: - The organization is changing the way it operates through a process that is representative and doesn't require participation by any party against their will. - The current operator wants to keep it the same and feels that because he's in the minority he's getting a raw deal. "I lost, and that isn't fair." There is a distinction between 'EFNet Admin' and 'IRC Admin'. As to 'conform' or be 'de-linked', that's the way 'free choice' works. You go along or you go alone (at least until you can find some more suitably minded parties). As to the point of a list of servers which won't be served, there is nothing wrong with that under this mechanism. If I have a party at my house it's up to me whom to invite, simply because I might know you doesn't give you any right to show up without an invite. What this whole bunch of bozo's needs is a p2p deamon that has something akin to 'host.deny/host.allow' that applies to domain names, IP's, channel ID's, and user ID's. If you want to create a 'permanent' channel why should EFNet be the ones to decide? Why not let the 'market' decide through their transient choices? This is just another example of why human psychology makes anarchic or libertarian communities unworkable. People have entirely too strong a social need to be comfortable in such environs. Which side (it's good/it's bad) isn't important, what is important to recognize the subconcious need to have a structure at all. Of course this also ignores the tendency of most people to be 'lazy' with respect to their contribution to a project. Which is really one of the main reasons we don't see more CDR nodes or alternate IRC networks springing up, it takes responsibility and activity. > > It seems to me the 'cypherpunkish', 'libertarian', 'anarchic' thing to > > do is to promote the growth of individualy operated servers other than > > those on ISP's (who will have a motive to drop the old system and use > > the new system - just another example of why libertarian/economism is > > not sufficient in and of itself for a basis for society - they have no > > motive to protect the individual, only the 'market'). > > It would indeed be unfortunate if all controversial IRC traffic ended up > being carried by isolated IRC servers, akin to remailers, whose admins > were under constant attack, and which came and went on a daily basis. This is probably a good thing really. It makes it harder for LEA's and other 'mallet's' to have a window of opportunity that is open long enough to take advantage off. > I anticipate that if Efnext pulls off this "Conform or be > Delinked" exercise, people will be setting their sights on Usenet as the > next thing that needs "fixing." They already are, and have been for years. Usenet is another service that could use some sort of p2p datahaven environment. This should be one of the Cypherpunk 'target projects'. Of course this activity is yet another example of how 'anarchit/libertarian' market ideals are not the ideals that the community as a whole desires. It's also demonstrates that 'free markets' without some 3rd party regulation (eg 1st and 4th) are inherently unstable. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From emc at artifact.psychedelic.net Sun Dec 31 10:01:22 2000 From: emc at artifact.psychedelic.net (Eric Cordian) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:01:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: from "Jim Choate" at Dec 31, 2000 09:59:43 AM Message-ID: <200012311801.eBVI1Ma16315@artifact.psychedelic.net> Jim Choate writes: >> A typical citizen-unit will quickly trade a large amount of privacy for >> a small amount of convenience. > That begs the question and misrepresents reality to a good degree. People > take the choices they think they have, usually those choices are made > available by the party that is operating the service the consumer will > use. So, there is usually very little say for the consumer other than > yes/no. This is not the fault of the consumer, it's the fault of the > producer. In their drive to gain a significant share of the market > (something which goes against free market economy by the way) they will > reduce the number of combinations they must offer (reduces cost). I see some interesting science here. Permit me to explain. One of the unchallenged inerrant doctrines of crypto-anarchy has been that highly redundant widely distributed services are immune to attack. Indeed, things like BlackNet are made possible because they can use such services (eg alt.anonymous.message) as their underlying transport mechanism. Now we see a network of 33 servers being assimilated to a new way of doing things. How could this be? Perhaps there are some flaws in our analysis of highly redundant widely distributed networks. Perhaps by looking at Efnext, we might see what they are. Flaw number one is that the servers in most networks are not equal. Most Networks are star networks, and most of the nodes are leaf nodes. Leaf nodes are at the mercy of their hubs. Where the hubs go, the leaves will follow. Flaw number two is that it is far more prestigious to run a hub than a leaf. Given the choice of having ones own Enamelware Factory under the new Reich, or being reduced to a delinked leaf, most server operators will swallow their pride and go with the herd. Flaw number three is that once the herd starts moving, it is very difficult for individual sheep to make their views known, and almost impossible for them to push the herd in a different direction. Also, the trading of privacy and autonomy for convenience is a new threat model we have not considered in the context of highly redundant widely distributed networks. Here we have EFNet en masse giving up the old way of doing things. En masse. "Voluntarily." And what is their motivation? Impending government legislation? Janet Reno's tanks rolling on the locations of all 33 IRC Servers? A court order, which threatens indefinite jailing for non-compliance? No, it's none of these things. It's some people who have gone off and written some mods to ircd which make running a server less of a headache. So the lesson here is that there is a "better software" attack on highly redundant widely distributed server networks, and that entire networks will trade control of their servers and allow changes to fundamental protocols, in return for new "singing and dancing" code. Certainly, Usenet is also vulnerable to such an attack. Most news admins I know would give their left nut for a life free of spam. > His argument is something like this: > - The organization is changing the way it operates through a > process that is representative and doesn't require participation > by any party against their will. Much in the same sense that it is "voluntary" for an individual in the top 1 percentile on IQ and Achievment Tests to get a high school diploma. However, try being allowed to flip burgers without one, regardless of your actual talent. Making people "part of the process" is one of the first things one learns in management. How to simultaneously make sure they have zero chance of actually altering what you have planned for them is the second thing. > They already are, and have been for years. Usenet is another service that > could use some sort of p2p datahaven environment. This should be one of > the Cypherpunk 'target projects'. Uh, right. Let us know when you have working code. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From bear at sonic.net Sun Dec 31 10:14:30 2000 From: bear at sonic.net (Ray Dillinger) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:14:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: >Jim Choate writes: > >> So much for belief in free markets. You realise that there is nothing >> that requires servers to install this, or cease using the old network? >Note that the two things IRC really needs, end to end encryption and >authentication, are not even on the list of "improvements" these people >are working on. I think that if you have authentication, what you wind up with is not really IRC-like. I would like to see pseudonymous authentication (ie, each nick would have a key for signing and be able to prove they were the same person who last had that nick) but if you just say "authentication" these powers are going to think in terms of keeping out anybody whose True Name they don't know. I can see crypto helping keep things between the clients and the servers with an asymmetric encryption scheme; somebody would provide the server's public key when logging on, the server would use their public keys to send them stuff, and nobody could suss out the network packets. Of course, people could still just run clients if they wanted to know what folk were saying, but with crypto they couldn't packetsniff to backtrack to the source very easily. (Jim Choate Quoting Adam J Herscher) ,So what are my >options at this point? Well, I can link to their network, or I can decide >not to. If I decide not to, I will remain with a group of unwanted leaf >servers with no hubs. So the question becomes, how difficult is it for someone to set up an IRC hub? The answer is not very. I've got the software on my SuSE box -- I shut it down when I was starting to harden it, but when I first connected it to the net it was ready to function as an IRC host -- and if I'd typed the names of other IRC hosts into a config file it would cheerily have acted as an IRC hub. The old-style IRCies are going to need to set up a few new hubs, but I don't think this is going to kick them off the network entirely. It's just going to create a new IRC-like protocol and convert some existing IRC nodes to run it. The danger of course is that programmers are going to abandon "normal" IRC protocol. If they quit developing new software for IRC hosting and linking, or if the software for the new protocol is substantially easier to use and slicker, then people who make Linux distros are going to quit packaging old-style IRC hosts, people who keep download sites will take them down and put up "the new version", etc. >It would indeed be unfortunate if all controversial IRC traffic ended up >being carried by isolated IRC servers, akin to remailers, whose admins >were under constant attack, and which came and went on a daily basis. Ugh. I think that's where this plan is pointing. >I anticipate that if Efnext pulls off this "Conform or be >Delinked" exercise, people will be setting their sights on Usenet as the >next thing that needs "fixing." I anticipate that if IRC and/or Usenet are "fixed", then there will be a much stronger motive for people at large to create analogous protocols to IRC and NNTP with encryption and strong guarantees of privacy. But they're going to have to be pure peer-to-peer protocols, so there is no "server backbone" that concentrates power in a few coercable hands. Fortunately, I think the connectivity model is robust enough now -- it wasn't, back when NNTP was created -- to go fully peer-to-peer on netnews transfer. Hmmm. There may even be a niche in this new ecology for a network standards body composed completely of pseudonymous individuals, to help create and standardize network protocols for the underside of the net. Bear From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Dec 31 09:55:20 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:55:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: The problem with SSH2 In-Reply-To: <20001231162642.A9783@folly> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Markus Friedl wrote: > On Fri, Dec 29, 2000 at 06:30:01PM +0000, Peter Fairbrother wrote: > > Why not use a communication method that makes MITM attacks impossible to > > successfully complete? Doesn't that "not expose them to risk at all"? > > as Damien wrote: SSH2 + pk auth 'makes MITM attacks impossible to > successfully complete'. 'pk auth' is handwaving. How do you defeat the MITM attack against the key server this approach requires? You don't, at some point there is a question of nothing but 'trust'. And it isn't testable. This is the fundamental weakness any any security scheme that requires anything approaching public pk distribution. The original point that what is needed is a distributed system with no interest in message content is still valid. Then the parties using the system can impliment the appropriate security for their purposes. Any central server based system should be avoided. Any system that pre-dictates the low-level format (ie non-delivery related) should be avoided like the plague. Any system that requires single source (prefer Open Source or PD) tools should be avoided like the black plague. What we really need is a distributed network/process model (ala Plan 9) that impliments content encryption at all levels, though 'next level' addressing should still be in the clear. Key management at the network layer should be node-to-node (peer-to-peer) and left to the discression of the individual parties. We accept that we need trust in our model and distirbute it to the lowest level as well. This limits any breach of security without massive amounts of resources, which limits the targets of such attacks to reasonably readily identifiable, and as a result protected, lists. Then using a distributed file system we can break the actual contents up and store them 'holographically' (this probably means multi-site storage for each little blob of a target file) so small amounts of sites dropping off are irrelevant to the integrity of the file system. At that point with some sort of 'anonymous thunking layer' (eg standard anonymous remailer, posts through Usenet, or anonymous IP proxies) we can impliment a 'data haven' sort of mechanism. This effectively means I can access my 'home workspace' from anywhere on the Internet anonymously and transparently (with respect to resource usage). As an aside, this sort of architecture would also solve a lot of the wireless issues as well. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Dec 31 09:59:57 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:59:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20001231090909.0239ca58@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, James A. Donald wrote: > -- > At 10:17 PM 12/30/2000 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: > > Note that the two things IRC really needs, end to end encryption and > > authentication, are not even on the list of "improvements" these > > people are working on. > > Is there a forum where it is appropriate to discuss such improvements? > > The average IRC user will never grok the concept of a public key, but we Irrelevant. What the user wants strictly speaking is irrelevant at this layer. This is the relationship between publishers and how they will operate. The user requirements are a factor here but direct user input isn't needed. Your position is akin to saying that I as a book publisher must somehow limit my activities with respect to content selection to only what the customer or specific list of agents will allow. This violates my right of ownership with respect to 'the press'. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com Sun Dec 31 11:25:24 2000 From: ravage at EINSTEIN.ssz.com (Jim Choate) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 13:25:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <200012311801.eBVI1Ma16315@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: > I see some interesting science here. Permit me to explain. Cool. I'll take the liberty of adding some commentary myself. > One of the unchallenged inerrant doctrines of crypto-anarchy has been that > highly redundant widely distributed services are immune to attack. I'd say a more realistic view is that the cost of an attack goes up as a function of distribution. Hence, if you want to hit on one 'unit' then it's reasonable that even an individual might do it. But if you start trying to hit on many units the combinatorics take over and cost goes up in a factorial fashion. This is the reason I want to see the key management stay at the 'unit' level. The ability for me (or any party) to readily identify another party in my immediate environ is much lower in cost than say to have Tim May do it for us. The best person to evaluate my 'trust requirements' is me. In addition, by layering the protocols this way adds another level of protection. You've got a point to point link key that the two parties share and exchange in their own way. Each node takes whatever traffic it gets and routes it according to address, everything 'below' this layer is still encrypted. But I don't have access to the keys, nor do I know necessarily what algorithm was used to encrypt them. This was made by the appropriate parties at each level. > Indeed, things like BlackNet are made possible because they can use such > services (eg alt.anonymous.message) as their underlying transport > mechanism. I like Plan 9 because it allows this at the network layer as a part of the OS. Though I'd like to see DES replaced with something more secure. When coupled with its distributed file/work space some really interesting possibilities become possible. > Now we see a network of 33 servers being assimilated to a new way of doing > things. How could this be? Perhaps there are some flaws in our analysis > of highly redundant widely distributed networks. Perhaps by looking at > Efnext, we might see what they are. I wouldn't say '33' qualified for 'highly redundent' or 'widely distributed'. I wouldn't trust any system that didnt' have at least several hundred, and preferably several thousand widely dispersed nodes, involved. 33 machines is within the scope of a couple of individual to hack over a year. > Flaw number one is that the servers in most networks are not equal. Most > Networks are star networks, and most of the nodes are leaf nodes. Leaf > nodes are at the mercy of their hubs. Where the hubs go, the leaves will > follow. I would say this observation is reason enough to say our original description of the network (and as a result our expectations) were at fault rather than how the particular system did end up being implimented or how it performed. > Flaw number two is that it is far more prestigious to run a hub than a > leaf. Given the choice of having ones own Enamelware Factory under the > new Reich, or being reduced to a delinked leaf, most server operators will > swallow their pride and go with the herd. The really(!) interesting observation is the one choice that almost never(?) comes up is real distributed systems. If these people would put the same energy into sending out a few notices in the appropriate forum and starting a real distributed content-blind network we'd all be better off. But it doesn't happen. Why? People don't like direct and immediate confrontation, they hate to burn bridges. It's a psychology thing in my opinion. > Flaw number three is that once the herd starts moving, it is very > difficult for individual sheep to make their views known, and almost > impossible for them to push the herd in a different direction. Again, this is that face to face confrontation thingy. > Also, the trading of privacy and autonomy for convenience is a new threat > model we have not considered in the context of highly redundant widely > distributed networks. But a distributed system maximises convenience, it has the minimum level of regulation and operating cost at the individual level. At the same time it maximizes autonomy. Obliquely, a couple of weeks ago there was a post on /. about 'why freedom'. One of the issues was Franklins security/freedom quote. The point which nobody gets is that Franklin was saying security IS freedom. In a fully distributed network w/ inherent privacy management we'd have soemthing like this: - Me and my ISP would share a key. This would allow me the pipe to route my traffic through. - My friends and I would share private 'public' keys that we'd use for day to chit chat. (this implies the package must allow multi-key selection for each recipient) - We'd have real public keys we'd share on our webpage as a matter of course. It should also be in our .sig. - Any service I worked with would share a key. We'd use the real public keys only to initiate the dialog. Nearly the first thing we'd do prior to any exchange would be to generate a (potentially session sensitive) specific key pair for us to use. It should be easy to sign these keys with a public key for 3rd party authentication. Smart folks would have key generation and exchange done on a nearly session by session basis. > Here we have EFNet en masse giving up the old way of doing > things. En masse. "Voluntarily." And what is their motivation? Since it's voluntary is that even an issue? Isn't part of respecting an individual simply accepting it's their decision and to impact them about it is only to weaken our own arguments and desires of individuality? That people have a means to opt-out is enough. > Impending government legislation? Influence through abduction by space aliens? > Janet Reno's tanks rolling on the locations of all 33 IRC Servers? > A court order, which threatens indefinite jailing for non-compliance? > > No, it's none of these things. It's some people who have gone off and > written some mods to ircd which make running a server less of a headache. But isn't this exactly what individuals are supposed to do? Irrespective of free market requirements, isn't this a requirement of a real world market? We bitch and moan about sheeple and then when a group goes off and does it we bitch and moan... > So the lesson here is that there is a "better software" attack on highly > redundant widely distributed server networks, and that entire networks > will trade control of their servers and allow changes to fundamental > protocols, in return for new "singing and dancing" code. I'd say the lesson is that we went into this with one set of expectations and we applied those in an environment where they weren't valid. We need to identify our process errors and repair them and try again. > Certainly, Usenet is also vulnerable to such an attack. Most news admins > I know would give their left nut for a life free of spam. The question is how to do it. And who will do it? Isn't this the point of a market? If "Do I compete?" then "Differentiate!" else "Use what somebody else brung to the party." This is a perfect opportunity for a real difference to be made. I think this is a facet of Lessigs "Code" that many don't seem to get. As I've said before this is the real power of Open Source development. The trick is to get the right mix of capability and personality in some core members. This is a nearly completely unstudied aspect of Open Source (and no, I don't think the same things that make Open Source success mean closed source success). > Much in the same sense that it is "voluntary" for an individual in the > top 1 percentile on IQ and Achievment Tests to get a high school diploma. > > However, try being allowed to flip burgers without one, regardless of your > actual talent. Well you won't just walk in and get hired as a president of a company but getting a job is not impossible without a diploma. You'll have to be content to start at the bottem washing plates, delivering boxes, etc. The opportunities are still there if at some point you change your mind and figure you do need something more to achieve. You can always start your own business also. > Making people "part of the process" is one of the first things one learns > in management. How to simultaneously make sure they have zero chance of > actually altering what you have planned for them is the second thing. People ARE the process, everything else is a tool for their success. The way I manage my team is by clear goals and well described process and resource utility (and staying out of their way). ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage at ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sharon at hci.net Sun Dec 31 13:56:27 2000 From: sharon at hci.net (Sharon) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:56:27 -0500 Subject: pager Message-ID: <009901c07374$8767c7e0$1f88ffcc@erichurley> tried to call the 1-800 number.. Can't get thru. I am interested. Eric Hurley -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reeza at flex.com Sun Dec 31 19:08:04 2000 From: reeza at flex.com (Reese) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:08:04 -1000 Subject: remove In-Reply-To: <007f01c07377$f4677fe0$d8dc4d0c@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001231170659.00b9a100@flex.com> You put the lime in the coconut and stir it all up,,, At 10:20 PM 12/31/00 +0000, chris ulmer ulmer wrote: > >Please send me more information on getting started. > > > >Email: c.ulmer1234 at worldnet.att.net > > From honig at sprynet.com Sun Dec 31 15:56:26 2000 From: honig at sprynet.com (David Honig) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:56:26 -0500 Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20001231090909.0239ca58@shell11.ba.best.com> References: <200012310617.eBV6HGh16138@artifact.psychedelic.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com> At 12:38 PM 12/31/00 -0500, James A. Donald wrote: > -- >At 10:17 PM 12/30/2000 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote: > > Note that the two things IRC really needs, end to end encryption and > > authentication, are not even on the list of "improvements" these > > people are working on. > >Is there a forum where it is appropriate to discuss such improvements? Since no one has yet mentioned it, Ryan Lackey once mentioned a secure chat program.. Zephyr? Gale? (the name was related to some other existing, insecure chat program) I don't see why a secure text-chat program would be any different than PGPfone (using DH, not RSA). Maybe easier i/o, tougher authentication since PGPfone uses human voice recog in part. From George at Orwellian.Org Sun Dec 31 18:36:40 2000 From: George at Orwellian.Org (George at Orwellian.Org) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 21:36:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Freenet Project: Vapourware? Message-ID: <200101010236.VAA22715@www5.aa.psiweb.com> (via slashdot) "The Freenet Project: Vapourware?" by Ian Clarke, 30th Dec 2000 http://freenetproject.org/index.php?page=vapourware From c.ulmer1234 at worldnet.att.net Sun Dec 31 14:20:53 2000 From: c.ulmer1234 at worldnet.att.net (chris ulmer ulmer) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:20:53 -0000 Subject: remove Message-ID: <007f01c07377$f4677fe0$d8dc4d0c@oemcomputer> Please send me more information on getting started. Email: c.ulmer1234 at worldnet.att.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 552 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lifecging at hotmail.com Sun Dec 31 22:25:34 2000 From: lifecging at hotmail.com (lifecging at hotmail.com) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:25:34 Subject: Live like the RICH Message-ID: <572.610991.314643@hotmail.com> You're ready for a financial and (TAX) breakthrough so I'll get right to the point. 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Forget the feeling, become her best partner ever! We know what's needed for your case. Natural hardness and boosted drive. Feel your life with colors of joy!!! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/html Size: 558 bytes Desc: not available URL: From van at echeque.com Sun Dec 31 21:30:12 2000 From: van at echeque.com (Van Donald) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 00:30:12 -0500 Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001231154706.0086d880@pop.sprynet.com> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20001231090909.0239ca58@shell11.ba.best.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20001231212042.01c9a188@shell11.ba.best.com> -- At 06:56 PM 12/31/2000 -0500, David Honig wrote: > I don't see why a secure text-chat program would be any different > than PGPfone (using DH, not RSA). Maybe easier i/o, tougher > authentication since PGPfone uses human voice recog in part. The method used by PGP phone against a man in the middle attack is impossible for text programs, though fairly easy for voice and video. A chat program needs a server, or interacting network of servers to advertise presence. This server could also act as a public key server, invisibly to user, guaranteeing stability of identity -- that this presence was the same entity as had been logged on under the same name in previous sessions. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG UGQ/+6M1hWVD5Z4S7TaT01Hg7/uSMrGS449xduq7 4+IVFOt/Gxo+29WnJDRqzcj9CMd7J+MOSEhY09Au5 From jamesd at echeque.com Sun Dec 31 21:53:16 2000 From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 00:53:16 -0500 Subject: Anarchy Eroded: Project Efnext Message-ID: <3a5814d5.38771180@mail.telocity.com> -- At 06:56 PM 12/31/2000 -0500, David Honig wrote: > I don't see why a secure text-chat program would be any different > than PGPfone (using DH, not RSA). Maybe easier i/o, tougher > authentication since PGPfone uses human voice recog in part. The method used by PGP phone against a man in the middle attack is impossible for text programs, though fairly easy for voice and video. A chat program needs a server, or interacting network of servers to advertise presence. This server could also act as a public key server, invisibly to user, guaranteeing stability of identity -- that this presence was the same entity as had been logged on under the same name in previous sessions. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG KjuvIUyDc+HD6sFxZIgkCD4ro8q+9eiwudhA21wi 4kP3H+TQ6kIQ63kRHWvJaRJTrlfIfR1SVqjt5Wkdp ------ We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state. http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ James A. Donald From boyd at planete.net Sun Dec 31 23:38:51 2000 From: boyd at planete.net (Boyd Roberts) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 18:38:51 +1100 Subject: [9fans] Re: The problem with SSH2 References: Message-ID: <01ca01c073c5$e3c405c0$8692fea9@coma> real problem with SSH is that its too big and too complicated. you can't verify it or test it easily.